Welcome to the Influential Personal Brand [00:00:10] podcast. This is the place where we help mission-driven messengers, just like you [00:00:15] learn how to build and monetize your personal brand. My name is Rory Vaden [00:00:20] and I’m the co-founder of Brand Builders Group, a hall of Fame speaker, and New York Times [00:00:25] bestselling author. And this show is to help experts learn how to become more [00:00:30] wealthy and well-known. I know you’re gonna love it. Thanks for being here. Let’s get started. [00:00:35] Hey, welcome back to the Influential Personal Brand Podcast. As you know, we wanna [00:00:40] bring you the stories. Of real life people who are making a difference in the world as [00:00:45] mission-driven messengers. And today I’m excited to, uh, kind of meet with you, [00:00:50] a new friend of mine, Ben Greenfield, who is one of the, without a doubt, one of [00:00:55] the, the most credible, most followed people online as it relates to health. Uh, [00:01:00] he’s a New York Times bestselling author, if I counted right, I think he has done 13 [00:01:05] Iron Man. A hundred races has millions of people who follow his [00:01:10] podcast. His social media, uh, covers a wide variety of topics, has multiple [00:01:15] different business models. All things we’re gonna get into to GA today about how he’s built that [00:01:20] business, how he’s built that brand, uh, and what we have to learn from him. So, Ben, [00:01:25] welcome to this show. The best part of the introductions, you called me a real life person. That’s good. [00:01:30] Better than interviewing the dead ones. Well, that’s, that’s that, that’s true. They’re more engaging. But I think, [00:01:35] you know. Every, in some ways it’s like everyone’s an influencer, everyone’s a health [00:01:40] influencer. Yeah. But there’s a, to me, there’s a big difference. There’s a threshold between, you know, I talk about [00:01:45] things versus you study the science, you do the academic [00:01:50] research. But then you also model and practice as like an an endurance athlete. Yeah. [00:01:55] Comma, never had aspirations to be an influencer. That’s all accidental. Yeah. [00:02:00] So tell us the story. Like how did you go from, ’cause you were, you, uh, you were a multi-sport [00:02:05] collegiate athlete. Mm-hmm. Tennis, wa, water polo, volleyball. Yep. And then you. [00:02:10] Went from that. You are like into training. Yeah. And then all of a sudden, somewhere along the way you [00:02:15] got into like teaching people health and then and then more of science and biohacking. Yeah. And, and now [00:02:20] you’re like one of the leading voices in bio. I’m gonna sit here and let you tell my whole story. I think you nailed it. Um. [00:02:25] Take off my, so these, these, I just flew in from London a couple of days ago, and these [00:02:30] glasses supposedly concentrate blue light from the environment to keep you awake. [00:02:35] Interesting. Uh, so they’re like the opposite of blue light blocking glasses, huh uh. But they also [00:02:40] make me look like a creepy stalker. I just realized on the puck that’s So we’re gonna take those off. It’s just a side, [00:02:45] a side benefit though. Walking eye contact. Um, but, but they actually do, this is the first time I’ve used them after [00:02:50] international travel and they do work, huh? Like they in, in the past. Um. [00:02:55] What you would use for something like that is there are glasses that you can put on and you press a [00:03:00] little button on ’em and they make bluish green light, which is the spectrum of sunlight that [00:03:05] causes what’s called the cortisol awakening response and get your circadian rhythm back into [00:03:10] action. Ah, and you can travel with these, so, so when you’re changing time zones, so when you’re changing time zones, basically you wear the blue [00:03:15] light blocking glasses at night, but then if you want to kind kind of take it to the next level, [00:03:20] you wear the blue light. Producing glasses in the morning and it actually works [00:03:25] really well. There’s, there’s like, I travel a lot and there’s certain things for jet lag that are [00:03:30] called zeitgebers. Okay. Which is the, one of the only German words that I know [00:03:35] besides zeitgeber. Erst, I guess zeitgeber, it means timekeeper and, um, [00:03:40] timekeepers help you to align to a new time zone more quickly. And there’s four of them. [00:03:45] One of them is light. Another one is exercise, right? So, so doing a movement session in the morning ing, send [00:03:50] your body a message that it’s morning. And by way, I know that the rock always works out. Like when he gets to a [00:03:55] place that’s like one of the things. Yeah, but he’s not, you know, he, he works out like 2:00 AM 3:00 AM whenever [00:04:00] he just works out, whenever gets there. Yeah. He, he’s just a beast. He goes too. Um, but ideally you work out in the [00:04:05] morning because that jumpstart your circadian rhythm. And actually research as of two weeks ago showed [00:04:10] that when you work out closer than three hours to bedtime, you actually have. Poor sleep [00:04:15] patterns, whether or not we’re talking about jet lag or whatever, just to if you, even if you’re home, um, yeah. Obviously [00:04:20] the best time to exercise is when you’re gonna exercise, but if you are able to get it done [00:04:25] with at least three hours before you go to bed, it’s better for sleep. But if you do it in the morning, it’ll realigns. [00:04:30] Exactly realize the circ rhythm. And the third one is food. So I do [00:04:35] a lot of intermittent fasting. Okay. Not because it’s magical for fat loss. Like [00:04:40] you know, the amount of calories you eat and how much you move is how you lose weight. But there’s some pretty [00:04:45] good data on going certain periods of time without eating and longevity markers. [00:04:50] So for like. Anti-aging for, um, the turnover of your mitochondria [00:04:55] and cleanup of the cells. Having a certain period of time during each 24 hour cycle where you go [00:05:00] without eating is generally a pretty good longevity principle. But [00:05:05] when I travel, I don’t do that. So when I’m at home in my normal time zone, I [00:05:10] get up at some point. Early in the morning I work out. Then later on I have [00:05:15] breakfast, and breakfast is always like 12 to 16 hours after dinner. So I have like a late breakfast. Okay. But when I [00:05:20] travel, I eat and then go to the gym because eating is a signal to your [00:05:25] body, especially if you have protein in the meal that again, you’re lining to the new [00:05:30] circadian rhythm. Fascinating. And then the last one is temperature. So that means that. Like a [00:05:35] lot of people probably know. So you said light exercise, food temperature, light temperature, exercise, food and [00:05:40] temperature. So a lot of people already know, like, you know, companies like Eight Sleep Mattress have made this really [00:05:45] popular, right? You get a cooling surface, you sleep in a cold environment. You don’t have a, a heavy [00:05:50] spicy meal before bed. Back to the exercise thing, you know, exercise right before bed. But when it [00:05:55] comes to circadian alignment. It’s warm in the morning. Cool. In the [00:06:00] evening. So I don’t take warm showers when I’m at home, but when I travel, this is great. [00:06:05] It’s my little treat. When I travel, I get a nice like five minute steamy warm shower in the morning [00:06:10] because it gets you back into your time zone more quickly. Because you came from London straight here, super cold night to Nashville. [00:06:15] Yeah, right, so, so I pull, yeah, I travel a lot internationally for speaking, for events, for conferences, and so a big [00:06:20] part of it is just like. Getting back on the time zone more quickly. So I, I mean, clearly just hearing you [00:06:25] talk and being around you for a few minutes, it’s like, whoa, like you, you were so into [00:06:30] this stuff. Were you always just like drawn to like. [00:06:35] What now people would call biohacking glasses. Yeah. And like what everything you’re talking about, have you always been just [00:06:40] drawn to that? Great segue back to your original question that I didn’t answer. Um, so, [00:06:45] um, I was a total nerd growing up. I was homeschooled K through 12 out in the sticks [00:06:50] in North Idaho. Christian conservative family played violin [00:06:55] for 13 years. Wow. President of the chess club. You know, my happy place was a library. [00:07:00] I wrote a fantasy fiction novel like 400 pages long by the time I was 13 years old. [00:07:05] Wild, just totally not a jock [00:07:10] into into the human sciences at all. And then. My [00:07:15] parents, and actually I like this principle and I adopt this same principle in my house. Make your [00:07:20] home a really fun place to be so that your kids and grandkids want to hang out and come [00:07:25] over. Did you see, uh, SAHE Bloom’s book, the Five Types of Wealth Uhhuh? Yeah. Great. We are, [00:07:30] we are part of. Part of that. Okay. You are okay. Yeah. So great book. But one of the things I disagree [00:07:35] with in his book is that the amount of time that you get to spend with your kids is goes [00:07:40] down significantly decreased at a certain point in life after they’re 18. That can be the case, but I [00:07:45] think you can also. Create almost like this pad that, that your [00:07:50] kids want to hang out at and stay home for. It’s so funny talking. Wanna you talking about this? That’s like my objective, but [00:07:55] the, yeah, so, so for those of you that know, so Sahil Bloom, he talks about statistically for most [00:08:00] people, once their kids hit like. 18 and even like back to 14, it’s like you, you, [00:08:05] you, you’ve spent, most of the time you’re gonna spend together. Right. And vice versa, if you’re a kid, you only see your parents like literal once a year or something [00:08:10] like that. But we’re building a house right now. Mm-hmm. And um, the first time we built a house, it was just me [00:08:15] and aj. We never planned on having kids and now we have two. And so it’s, we’ve spent two years building our new house. We’re about to [00:08:20] move in and the entire process. Has been her vision is exactly what you said. Yeah. She’s [00:08:25] like, we’re gonna build a place that our kids want to come, their friends want to come one day, the grandkids will [00:08:30] want to come, is Exactly, yeah. All the way down to putting the master bedroom on the second floor. So the kids have to carry me up the stairs [00:08:35] when I’m 90. Um, so, so we, you know, we have an obstacle course and a Frisbee [00:08:40] golf course and we converted our barn into an indoor pickleball and [00:08:45] basketball arena. Cool. And you know. Corn hole and bocce ball. But my parents, um, they kind of had [00:08:50] the same thought pattern. Like they built a pool and [00:08:55] um, they had us on six acres of land where they were like motorcycle tracks dug into the hillside with a tractor. [00:09:00] We could take our dirt bikes out there. And they also built a tennis court and. I hired a [00:09:05] tennis instructor to come over and teach me and my siblings and I fell in freaking [00:09:10] love with the sport of tennis, like it was the first sport I was actually good at. I, I felt [00:09:15] like I could actually perform well as the nerdy homeschool [00:09:20] kid in this brand new sport that I’d discovered. And that’s when I got into. [00:09:25] Running up and down the hills behind the house and going [00:09:30] down to the sporting goods store, you know, in town and getting a pair of 10 pound dumbbells that I brought home and [00:09:35] had no clue what to do with. So I just like lay on the edge of my bed and do curls. ’cause I figured they’d make [00:09:40] my arms stronger for tennis and started thinking more about, you know, putting eggs in the, in [00:09:45] the pancake waffle mix so I could get extra protein. Uh, my, my [00:09:50] dad’s friend was the Washington State power lifting champion, and my brother’s best friend’s [00:09:55] dad was a professional bodybuilder, and both these guys kind of mentored me and started [00:10:00] to teach me about, mm-hmm. How to build muscle, how to eat properly, all these things that, [00:10:05] you know, no offense to, to homeschoolers. I homeschooled my kids. They’re, they’re 17 years old now and they’re [00:10:10] done, but like. Physical education, the physical sciences, fitness, nutrition. Some [00:10:15] of that isn’t heavily emphasized in the classical homeschooling curriculum, but I was just eating this stuff up. Yeah. [00:10:20] Nor nor is it in the traditional school system necessarily. Yeah. Now sad anymore. Yeah. Um. [00:10:25] So I, I got to the point where I, I wanted to go to college and, and [00:10:30] study exercise science. Like I was that into it. And my parents were like shocked ’cause they thought I was gonna be like [00:10:35] an author or a pastor or like a fantasy computer game [00:10:40] programmer or something like that. Like, you know, to either, either a very nerdy or just like classical [00:10:45] intellectual position. And, um, I. Walked [00:10:50] onto the tennis team, the college tennis team at Lewis Clark State College in Lewiston, Idaho, [00:10:55] just like all the other student as athletes, um, declared my major as, as [00:11:00] exercise science and began to study like anatomy and physiology and [00:11:05] biomechanics. And long story short, as I got my. My degree in exercise [00:11:10] physiology. Mm-hmm. And biomechanics and physiology is just like a study of all the different [00:11:15] pathways in the body that create energy. Okay. And how you train for things like fat loss, muscle [00:11:20] gain, oxygen capacity, et cetera. And. Along that [00:11:25] path, I even made the decision that I wanted to go to medical school, so I applied and was [00:11:30] accepted to six different medical schools. You know, took the MCATs and did the entire [00:11:35] pre-med course route. So you were heading down that path? Yeah. Totally headed down the path of wanting to go into sports [00:11:40] medicine or orthopedic surgery. And at. I did not get into two [00:11:45] programs that I really wanted to. They were specifically a, a Duke and New Penn’s MD [00:11:50] PhD programs. I got a, a declination letter from both of them [00:11:55] and thought, well, I could probably make myself a little bit more impressive on paper and reapply. So I took a [00:12:00] job in the private sector after I got my master’s degree selling hips and knees, like hip and [00:12:05] knee surgical sales for a company called Interesting Biomed. Uh, which, but you got your master’s degree, [00:12:10] Washington. Yeah. You were on that path. So went on, started working in the private sector and [00:12:15] hopefully this is a sponsor of your company. ’cause I’m holding it up now. It’s not but we should, probably, should [00:12:20] be down. Should we drink? We drink that stuff all the time. They’re great. Um, they’re [00:12:25] lemon. Perfect. Um. I had a total [00:12:30] distaste in my mouth for everything related to allopathic and modern medicine after like nine months [00:12:35] in that gig. Interesting. I was standing there with a laser pointer teaching surgeons how to [00:12:40] install overpriced tips and knees into people. That, for the most part, would’ve been. Better [00:12:45] served through the type of preventive principles I’d spent the past five years learning, right? Like [00:12:50] fitness, nutrition, movement, healthy eating, good lifestyle, sunshine. Um, [00:12:55] and this is something that I, I think there is this like epidemic of distrust with [00:13:00] modern healthcare, which is just, it’s really like it is spreading and it has hit our house hard.[00:13:05] We literally don’t know who to trust because it’s like we’ve got so many [00:13:10] biohacking friends and clients, uhhuh, and then we’ve got like all these traditional like [00:13:15] medical people and it’s like, oh man. And then you’ve got like chat, GBT, the internet and all stuff. Yeah. My, my, my [00:13:20] counselors don’t trust either of ’em. Uh, there’s, there, there’s, there’s a lot of, uh, [00:13:25] myopic and uh, and, and dogmatic opinions in both allopathic and natural [00:13:30] medicine. Everything with a grain of salt. Um, and, and even the [00:13:35] meha movement, I mean, not to rabbit hole too much. I, I wish there was a greater emphasis [00:13:40] on moving more and eating less and a little bit less of an emphasis on like artificial [00:13:45] sweeteners and red food dyes and primarily appealing to like, you know, [00:13:50] millionaire mommies who shop at Whole Foods. Like there’s, there’s a big part of the movement that is kind of focused [00:13:55] on the things that are pretty good for Instagram clicks. But I think there needs to be a little bit more of an [00:14:00] emphasis on just like. Getting outside. Sure, sure. Lifting heavy stuff, not stuffing your mouth with [00:14:05] so much food on that topic of influence. Right. So, so when did you start migrating? [00:14:10] Online. Yeah. So you have this distaste you, you go, I have this knowledge. Yeah. And then I’m [00:14:15] like, in this profession, I literally like walked across the street from the apartment I was [00:14:20] living in at the time, slapped my resume down on the desk of the Liberty [00:14:25] Lake Athletic Club in Washington State and asked for a job. And at that point I had a really good resume [00:14:30] because I’d been like personal training all through college doing. Nutrition coaching, managing the wellness [00:14:35] program at University of Idaho. I had all the, you know, the student athlete profiling. I had the pre-med [00:14:40] stuff. So, um, they, they hired me as the personal training [00:14:45] manager at the gym. So I spent a couple years at that job. I, I quit my [00:14:50] job in surgical sales. I never reapplied to medical school. And while [00:14:55] I was there working at the gym. Um, I became a fan of some of like the [00:15:00] OG guys in the fitness industry, like who was big back then. Ryan [00:15:05] Lee, Joel Marion, like, like a lot of these guys that had just figured out how to start, you know, making [00:15:10] money on the internet and, and, you know, writing newsletters and I, and, you know, running group [00:15:15] training programs. Um, and, and monetizing a fitness facility. [00:15:20] In a manner a little bit different than the traditional just bio gym membership and personal [00:15:25] training type of scenario. Okay, so I’m studying these guys, I’m starting group exercise programs, [00:15:30] um, upselling people into, um, like, you know, 3, [00:15:35] 6, 12 month concierge style personal training programs that are bringing in a lot of revenue. [00:15:40] And is this digital marketing? Is this really digital marketing or more in person? Well, I, I, I started a newsletter, [00:15:45] this is early on in the digital marketing, but I started a new What, this newsletter for the sort of in [00:15:50] 2000 and, uh, 2002. Oh [00:15:55] yeah. Okay. So this is 2000 is very early digital online marketing. [00:16:00] Yeah, but I mean, I, I even like had my mom follow me out to the park and, and we shot a [00:16:05] bunch of videos and I wrote like a, like an online ebook and, you know, had that up on, [00:16:10] uh, wow, what was it? What was Click ClickBank? Um, you know, and was selling that via [00:16:15] PayPal and the website. So I, so I had a little bit of the digital marketing going on, but that was a total side project. Okay. [00:16:20] What happened was, one of my clients, um. Husbands, uh, [00:16:25] Dr. PZ Pierce, who was the head physician for Ironman Triathlon and Rock Roll Marathon, approached me [00:16:30] with the idea of launching a one-stop shop for sports medicine called Champion Sports Medicine, [00:16:35] where we’d have like your physical therapist, your chiropractic docs, your massage therapist, your personal [00:16:40] trainer. Everybody all under one roof. Mm. And over the course of a year, we did that [00:16:45] again for an in person facility. In person. Yeah. We launched that facility and, uh, [00:16:50] then I actually launched a sister facility in Coeur d’Alene, Idaho. And that’s [00:16:55] when I, I became pretty successful in the personal training industry. I mean, [00:17:00] we had doctors all over the Spokane Coeur d’Alene region referring their patients to us. Hmm. [00:17:05] I was managing the entire facility. We were doing like early on biohacking like. Platelet rich [00:17:10] plasma injections and, you know, high speed video camera analysis of gait. And we would have masks, [00:17:15] people would wear when they came in to measure how many calories they were burning and what their vo O2 max was. ’cause I, [00:17:20] I’ve always been buried into like the, the pointy cutting [00:17:25] edge of, of, of almost like the gearhead aspects of [00:17:30] anything I do, whether it’s triathlon or, or pickleball or, or training or whatever. So. [00:17:35] Long story short is about two years into operating those [00:17:40] gyms and, and I still continue to write a newsletter, operate a little bit of a website. Um, and I [00:17:45] was doing travel blogging. I was racing all over the world as an Ironman triathlete, [00:17:50] and I had sponsors early on in the day, even affiliates. And so [00:17:55] between running the gyms and then traveling and generating some side income [00:18:00] with. Affiliate marketing via my travel writing. That was my gig. Uh, in [00:18:05] 2008, I was voted as America’s top personal trainer and that really thrust me [00:18:10] into the limelight of being on like the cover of fitness magazines and beginning to speak at, [00:18:15] at conferences. I think it was actually at, um. At Bedros Ion’s conference [00:18:20] that I was speaking at about how to make money running a brick and mortar personal training [00:18:25] studio. Mm-hmm. That the shift that you’re asking about occurred, like the shift in in online [00:18:30] influencing. So that’s a moment you get a, you get a speaking invitation. Yeah. Go speak at [00:18:35] an event and you’re like, I look back in my life and go, that was the moment that I started like a hard, well [00:18:40] kind of, but the reason is that my wife was with me. At that event and um, [00:18:45] she was pregnant and she was pregnant with twins. And my typical day, [00:18:50] Rory, at the time was I was up at 4:00 AM riding my bike 12 miles to the gym, [00:18:55] trading clients till noon, heading to the pool swim, training for Ironman, coming back to [00:19:00] the gym, training clients all day, getting done, lifting weights, riding my back, [00:19:05] back home, going for a run, having a quick dinner with my wife, going back into the office, writing my [00:19:10] newsletter, doing my online programming, going to bed, sleeping about four to five hours a night, and that was my life for three [00:19:15] years. Wow. So now I’m at this event speaking, and [00:19:20] the way that I was raised is that I valued and still value the idea [00:19:25] of being a, a, a present father and husband. And I saw the [00:19:30] writing on the wall that there was no way that the life I was living at that point, it’s not gonna work, which is making me really good [00:19:35] money. And I was like, you know, famous in my own little niche of the personal training industry was not gonna [00:19:40] work for me to be the dad and the husband that I wanted to be. And, um. [00:19:45] I remember exactly who it was. This guy came up and they called him the Million Dollar Man. And uh, and [00:19:50] he gave a talk. I think his talk was on VSLs. Um, it was on, on [00:19:55] on VSLs or just sales letters in general. It was Vince del Monte. And so, so Vince gets up and gives a [00:20:00] talk and I’m sitting there in the auditor of this clipboard just taking copious notes. ’cause I, all I’d done at [00:20:05] that point was just like dabbled in the whole internet marketing industry. Like, I had a little ebook, [00:20:10] I had a newsletter. Um, I had started a podcast. There were like. Four [00:20:15] pod. There’s like, this is early Jillian Michaels, Rob Wolf, like like three or four [00:20:20] podcasts back when you had to code your own RSS feed and submit it to Apple and wait two weeks and if it was over a hundred [00:20:25] megabytes it’d break and you’d have to use an RSS feed fixer to resubmit. But I would sit there in my [00:20:30] office at the personal training studio just with my, my computer flipped open webcam. And [00:20:35] record podcasts and, and they’re mostly just about exercise science, so. Yeah. But you were also on that, to your point about being a [00:20:40] gearhead, like you, you were also on the cutting edge of digital marketing Yeah. And testing things and going to conferences. [00:20:45] Exactly. And like learning from Yeah. So I, I like to do this stuff early. My son’s 17. My, my podcast is 18 years old. Right. [00:20:50] So, so even before this point, I was, I was into the [00:20:55] idea of, of, of spreading my message using [00:21:00] this thing called the internet, but had never thought about like. Doing the [00:21:05] type of thing that you do, which is like, oh, here’s the system, here’s the [00:21:10] process. Here’s like the, the plug and play steps that you follow. And when you do it this way, it actually [00:21:15] works. Versus just like throwing noodles at the wall and seeing what sticks. And so I sat there next to my wife [00:21:20] in the audience listening to Vince with this little yellow legal notepad, writing down every step that [00:21:25] he was presenting about how to do like a long form sales letter for a website for a digital information [00:21:30] product. I spent the next eight months working [00:21:35] on what I called the triathlon Dominator [00:21:40] package, so I hooked up with disc.com in Texas, we had $197 [00:21:45] physical package, $97 digital package. I took. Everything I knew [00:21:50] about Ironman training, ’cause I was also, I was like a name in the endurance sports industry and I was known [00:21:55] as the minimalist training guy. The guy who could get you really good results, but still [00:22:00] leave you with plenty of time for your social life, for your friends, for your family, for your other [00:22:05] hobbies, for your career. So I designed this Ironman training program that promised to [00:22:10] get you across the finish line of an Ironman triathlon. With a smile on your face and [00:22:15] still have time left over for your family, for your friends, for your social life, for your career, for your hobbies. So there [00:22:20] therein lies. Op, the beginning of real optimization. And, and well, yeah, my, [00:22:25] my, my hair-brained idea. Well, well, first of all. As, as I was working [00:22:30] on this program, I drove up and raced the short course World [00:22:35] Championships for Triathlon in Vancouver, BC and all the way up and all the way back I listened to a [00:22:40] relatively new audio book by this guy named Tim Ferris called Four Hour Workweek. At that point, I [00:22:45] had never like, actually really hired anybody besides some college interns at my, at my personal training gym [00:22:50] to help train clients. Mm-hmm. So. I hired my first VA and one of her [00:22:55] first jobs was to get all the information for every triathlon club and triathlon [00:23:00] coach in the US so that I could contact them, so that they could sign up to be an affiliate for the [00:23:05] program. Every Friday I spent four hours on this old thing called [00:23:10] forums. Where you used to actually be able to like post helpful advice and have your [00:23:15] link in the bio and get pretty good clicks back to your website. And I would literally just spend hours and hours [00:23:20] replying to people. Have the little link in the bio back to the triathlon dominator, [00:23:25] opt-in page. Um, all of this was leading up to Ironman, Hawaii World [00:23:30] Championships. Where I was going to race. Okay. What year is this now? And this would’ve been 2008. [00:23:35] Oh, okay. So I, I was, it’s still super early planned out to be, do opt-in pages [00:23:40] and stuff. I had that, yeah. I was doing, I had, I had tweets pre-scheduled for like, oh, here’s [00:23:45] where I’m at in the race. And, you know, I’d use the triathlon dominated plan and, [00:23:50] and I feel great. And here’s what I was eating. I got this out of the nutrition package from the Triathlon Dominator [00:23:55] plan. All my affiliates were ready to mail out that week and I wanted to launch that week ’cause [00:24:00] that’s like the biggest week in triathlon, you know, the Ironman, Hawaii World Championships. So, [00:24:05] um, long story short is that week from the race to six [00:24:10] days after the race, I pulled in about $48,000. Now, for me, at the time, that was [00:24:15] basically about half as much as I was making as a personal trainer in a year, working my [00:24:20] ass off. Yeah. And all I’d really done was take the information up inside my head. Put [00:24:25] it digitally on the internet and created a program that actually helped people and got them [00:24:30] results. And I realized that I could do that for what I knew about [00:24:35] marathoning and swimming and knee pain and back pain. Um, [00:24:40] so within four months after racing [00:24:45] Ironman, Hawaii. And successfully launching that product. I had [00:24:50] moved all my clients onto other personal trainers in the community. I had sold my [00:24:55] studio equipment, ended my leases, moved into a home office, um, and started [00:25:00] full-time doing a lot of what I do now, right? Continued on the podcast, started doing online coach. [00:25:05] Um, writing, uh, published my first, uh, first and [00:25:10] only a New York Times bestselling book called Beyond Training, uh, which was, I [00:25:15] think that was 2012, I believe. Um, but that’s [00:25:20] what, that’s what shifted me into the, into the online space, was [00:25:25] wanting to change up my lifestyle and be a stay at home dad, [00:25:30] homeschool my kids, and, um, just kind of start a new chapter in life. So. [00:25:35] What’s the, what’s the, what’s the biggest mistake you’ve made online? [00:25:40] You’ve been, you’ve been in the online game. Oh, big. You’ve been in the online game for a long time. I mean, like, I probably the [00:25:45] mistake that wouldn’t surprise a lot of people knowing how entrepreneurs operate, but like, trying to do it all myself. Right. So [00:25:50] I ran, you know, all my own PPC campaigns and, and wrote all my own copy and did all [00:25:55] my own affiliate management and programmed all my own websites and coded my own WordPress themed. It [00:26:00] just did. Everything, which, you know, in retrospect, I think you could [00:26:05] make a case that if you know how to do a lot of that stuff, you know, if you’re getting screwed [00:26:10] over by somebody else who you’re paying to do it. But like biggest [00:26:15] mistake was not hiring early and hiring often. You know, when did you start hiring? When did you [00:26:20] start building this? Good question for everybody. What when’s the right time to start building a team when you’re. [00:26:25] Building your personal brand or when did you, when did you finally do it? Oh, I don’t know what the right time [00:26:30] is, but when I, um, so I, I basically managed [00:26:35] my online coaching, my writing, my podcast, which I [00:26:40] recorded and edited myself, you know, literally garage band for years and years. All the [00:26:45] way up until the point where I decided that I wanted some kind of a [00:26:50] brand that existed outside of just me, because I recognized that I couldn’t like even take [00:26:55] a day off. ’cause the entire thing was just Ben Greenfield coaching and you know, Ben Greenfield’s supplements [00:27:00] and Ben Greenfield’s triathlon riding. And I was even taking groups of athletes around the world on, you know, [00:27:05] like triathlon tours of Thailand and booking everybody’s hotel and plane flight. Geez. Just, you [00:27:10] know, I, I, I’ve always been into creating, um. Multiple [00:27:15] streams of income, but it was pretty much just like me and uh, [00:27:20] one Filipino VA and her family. And that was about [00:27:25] it until I reached the point where I wanted to start a brand [00:27:30] and I was white labeling. It wasn’t really white [00:27:35] labeling. Basically I wrote a PHP script that would allow people to go to [00:27:40] my website and make an order for the supplements that I was recommending [00:27:45] to people for racing, triathlon. Okay. And then that script would [00:27:50] go to the manufacturer’s website. Then they would ship that order. So it was kind of like [00:27:55] an early version of drop shipping and these, and the reason people would do this for me was [00:28:00] because these were my sponsors. Like I was a race car, like I had, I had, you know, products on my [00:28:05] jersey and on my website. I see. And in my travel blogs. So I worked with a lot of [00:28:10] different supplement companies. But then you were actually doing direct sales for them, I mean, affiliate basically, right? Yeah. Basically it was kind of [00:28:15] like affiliate sales, but both much higher margins. So. I wanted to [00:28:20] start my own supplements company because I was seeing how successful a lot of these companies [00:28:25] were. And a lot of sold for hundred is for formulations. Hundred millions of dollars. [00:28:30] Yeah. Yeah, yeah. A lot. Um. And so at the [00:28:35] time, the supplements branch of what I did was called Greenfield Fitness Systems. [00:28:40] Mm-hmm. Because you’re still in this business today. It’s not called a re dink thing outta my home office and garage. Huh. [00:28:45] So I hired this branding agency outta Boulder, Colorado to come to my house for a two day [00:28:50] intensive, where we came up with the concept of key [00:28:55] life force energy. We spelled it KI, uh, and I launched a [00:29:00] company called Keon. Um, I didn’t wind up working that long with the branding agency, [00:29:05] but I basically headhunted one guy who I really got along with who was incredible, his name was [00:29:10] Angelo. He’s now the CEO of that company, Keon based out of Boulder, [00:29:15] Colorado. And so, um, we’ve, we started that [00:29:20] company. I think about seven years ago. Um, and that’s just like a standalone supplements company. I’m still a [00:29:25] majority owner. I don’t have a lot of direct involvement besides occasional calls with Angelo.[00:29:30] So now I have the supplements company. And then besides that, [00:29:35] um, speaking coaching. Uh, podcasting with monetization of the podcast ads. Yeah. So [00:29:40] walk, walk me through the, how you make money today. Yeah. On a percentage basis. Yeah. What percentage of [00:29:45] your income comes from Right. Speaking books. Yeah. You know? Yeah. I don’t [00:29:50] know exact percentages by far. Um, Keyon would outpace everything, [00:29:55] really. I mean, yeah. It’s a real business with a real rev. I mean, that’s a product that it, it’s a, yeah. I mean [00:30:00] that’s like, um. Uh, Keon is a math company. I [00:30:05] mean, that’s just, we, we do all direct to consumer and Amazon. We don’t do [00:30:10] wholesale, we don’t do retail, we don’t do shelf space. We don’t want to deal with product out of stock [00:30:15] or expiry dates. Um, and we want last click acquisition knowledge of where [00:30:20] every single purchase comes from. So, um. We do, [00:30:25] like, I think last report we were at like 29 point a half percent net [00:30:30] profit with Keon, um, with a, with a sizable amount. And this, this is [00:30:35] like direct to checkout. You, you own control the whole process. The customer Yeah, [00:30:40] exactly. The ingredients, the formulation, you know. And um, so you hired a formulator to help you put [00:30:45] this together? You use it yourself. And I formulate also like I formulate for a lot of companies, [00:30:50] but Keon is, um, like, this is what I think is the secret sauce in, in [00:30:55] the supplements industry is a lot of people will start a supplements company and [00:31:00] have an idea for like super complex formulas. That look really sexy and look [00:31:05] really good and have like the 18 different things that are gonna help you to live a really long time. But it’s [00:31:10] hard to source those raw ingredients. Keep them all in stock. If one thing disappears, a lot of [00:31:15] times you are replacing it with a less expensive ingredient. A lot of times you gotta have a proprietary [00:31:20] formula, which is not transparent to the customer, just in case you’re, you’re low [00:31:25] on one item and you have to adjust another, um. And it’s expensive and it’s [00:31:30] risky and it looks cool from the outside. But what we focus on at Keon are [00:31:35] super simple supplements that just work and are clean and fit base [00:31:40] needs, like whey protein, creatine, and not like fancy creatine with. [00:31:45] Unicorn tears and, and all the, just like pure plain, old creatine, monohydrate [00:31:50] coffee, um, uh, amino acids. That’s, that’s our top selling product. Like our [00:31:55] wedge in the market, like 10 x sales over everything else is just amino acids. Hmm. And people like [00:32:00] them because they help you to gain muscle, even if you’re not exercising, they help with your brain. Like, one thing that’s interesting [00:32:05] about what you’re saying about that, which, which I, I, I think has been a trend but will [00:32:10] continue to be a trend in AI, is going. It’s a simple supplement [00:32:15] I could get anywhere, but people, I suspect they buy it [00:32:20] from Ben Greenfield because they trust Ben. And they go, yeah, there’s, there’s a hundred versions of this [00:32:25] simple product, but I want the one that Ben says is the one. Yeah. And it’s just that [00:32:30] I say is the one, and that has the subtle nuances figured out, like where the [00:32:35] purest form come from. Do the ratios and the amino acids actually mimic what’s in human [00:32:40] skeletal muscle, and did we throw in sucralose and you know, acid sulfate potassium, or did we keep it clean? [00:32:45] So. The, the basic idea with the supplements company is [00:32:50] it’s basic, it’s easy, it’s predictable. And [00:32:55] um, you asked me in terms of percentage of revenue, like you said it was a math company. Definitely, yeah. It’s basically just a math [00:33:00] company, you know, and you’re just talking about a formula of how much we been on ad and what the cost per click is. The [00:33:05] Exactly. Versions the way down. Definitely similar to what you were describing for webinars yesterday. Mm-hmm. And knowing, knowing your [00:33:10] ROI on a webinar is pretty much very similar thing for a supplement company. Um. That would [00:33:15] be the top source of revenue, podcasts, um, advertising. [00:33:20] And I’d also, how do I explain this? So if you were to come to [00:33:25] me and want me as an influencer to represent your brand, your [00:33:30] product, which is big money in the health space, I feel like that’s it is you, you, you, [00:33:35] you typically are not just going to buy, let’s say like. Four [00:33:40] weeks of a, of a pre-roll podcast ad, or 12 weeks of, of, you know, like alternating [00:33:45] pre-roll and mid-roll to split test what works. You’re also typically buying stories. [00:33:50] Uh, posts, um, newsletter, either dedicated newsletters or I have a, a weekly [00:33:55] Roundup Friday newsletter where you’re, you’re getting, uh, exposure in that, um, [00:34:00] all social media channels. So typically like you’re selling a package package, like as an [00:34:05] influencer, like a lot of people think, and this is true sometimes that an influencer’s just like you write me a check and [00:34:10] I do an Instagram story about your product. I’m more selling packages that [00:34:15] get a business exposure across a variety of channels. Your whole platform, the podcast, the [00:34:20] YouTube channel, uh, YouTube shorts, reels, tweets, the [00:34:25] newsletter, the weekly roundups. So I can offer a lot to a company. When it [00:34:30] comes to how much exposure that they’re getting. So, so the more [00:34:35] channels that you’re active on, the more you can command as an influencer in terms of, of actual income. And I, I [00:34:40] don’t run any of this myself, right? Like I, I have a, a partnerships manager and a social [00:34:45] media manager and a CEO and you know, and basically now all I do is. [00:34:50] And, and this is what I love about my job. I just vet and try cool products, and then [00:34:55] if I like them, develop a relationship with a company where I’m, I’m getting the word out about them. [00:35:00] Yeah. How dos do you do, how do you do that balance? That’s a significant source of revenue also, is it just like ad [00:35:05] packages that companies are signing up through? So it’s not really a podcast, it’s just like sponsorships or like an [00:35:10] add package. Right. I, I use the knowledge up inside my head to vet products, figure out if [00:35:15] they’re good. Try them out, test them, do the whole immersive journalism thing, you know, put ’em [00:35:20] through the ringer and then if I like them, give the thumbs up and the green light on them. And then people get to [00:35:25] advertise on the podcast. So you won’t do it unless you’ve used it, like you won’t. Oh, absolutely not. [00:35:30] And you would be shocked. I mean, you probably wouldn’t be shocked at that. How much goes on in the industry in terms of people just like holding [00:35:35] up a product or, I mean. I, I won’t even do a podcast with an author of a [00:35:40] book that I haven’t actually read cover to cover. Mm-hmm. Like I am very picky about knowing exactly what [00:35:45] it is that I’m talking to my audience about. Um, but I also love, like, I love to [00:35:50] tinker and investigate and, you know, yeah. Try new things. And I literally have like, you know, [00:35:55] my entire team knows you don’t book anything on my calendar from three to 4:00 PM ’cause I’m in my little [00:36:00] lab. Trying stuff out. Um, I don’t book most calls till like 10:00 AM because a [00:36:05] lot of my job is just like testing and trying and, um. [00:36:10] Part of it is the whole like biohacking, immersive journalistic shtick [00:36:15] too. Right? Like, you know, I’ve done plasma replacement therapy in, in Austin, [00:36:20] Texas, the only state where it’s legal and blood filtration, Tijuana and gene therapy in [00:36:25] Mexico and full body stem cell surgeries. Your own little version of a crash dummy Guinea pig [00:36:30] like you. Yeah. I’m a I, I’m a Christian and I do believe that we need to [00:36:35] take good care of this vessel that God has given us to Amen. Without our purpose in life. Uh, and so [00:36:40] I, a lot of people think that I just go out and do anything, but in reality, I put a great deal of [00:36:45] research and read a lot of studies before I let anyone come near me with a needle. Sure. Know or, or, or try a [00:36:50] protocol. Um, so. Uh, that, but the same thing. You’re not talking about stuff, the [00:36:55] influencer thing, because I’m not just talk like I’m out there doing these things, right? Like if I’m talking about a [00:37:00] workout tool, like I put blood, sweat, and tears into that thing for three months before I’m actually, you know, [00:37:05] mentioning it on a podcast or doing an ad package with them. But that’s a source of revenue. That would probably be [00:37:10] the, the second biggest source of revenue. Fascinating. And then, well, I mean, I’m doing [00:37:15] two podcasts a week for 18 years. How long are they an hour? [00:37:20] All of them are an hour long. Yeah. Yeah. That’s a lot. I mean, you know, 50 to [00:37:25] 75 minutes. So, so yeah. I mean it’s, um, yeah, you know, between that and, [00:37:30] and the actual entirety of the package that someone can sign up for, um, it does become a [00:37:35] significant source of revenue that I, and that’s kinda like. You’re immediate company. When I said I never meant to be an [00:37:40] influencer like that part of my company, I never, like, all I wanted to do was just like talk to cool [00:37:45] people who would normally never give me the time of day, you know, and get to pick their brains and turn around and, [00:37:50] and tell people about it. And now it turned into its own kind of separate. Side business. ’cause people want to [00:37:55] advertise on that content medium. Well, you’re the, the, the, the, the episodes that I’ve listened to, they’re very tech. [00:38:00] They’re very technical. Yeah. Uh, I mean, that’s how I would describe it as a layman in the like, medical world. Like [00:38:05] they’re extremely technical and, you know, scientific, I mean, you’re using terms that I’m like, well, I’m, I don’t [00:38:10] even know what that term means. Yeah. Uh, so, so yeah, I should probably fix that. It’s real. No, I mean, [00:38:15] I, I think y you know, like just since we kinda became friends is really when I [00:38:20] started like, uh, I’ve never been into like. Biohacking and really like, other than being like I [00:38:25] want to be healthy and like very base level, but I’ve never been an endurance athlete, like push myself to the neck. There’s a lot of [00:38:30] deep dark rabbit holes. Like, you know, there’s a lot of I people like Ben, why are you talking about freaking like, you know, [00:38:35] smearing coffee grounds in your head and putting a red light helmet on to, to grow your hair? And I’m [00:38:40] like, well, because. You know, having done this for so long, I covered like bench pressing and how to run a 5K [00:38:45] like in the first 20 episodes, but you kinda, you kind of move on to things. Yeah. Well the thing that’s going on in my [00:38:50] life, you know, this is, is I had knee surgery, I had, I was playing whiffle ball with my kids, [00:38:55] tore my meniscus. So to in two spots, you know, I [00:39:00] go in, I talk to the surgeon and they’re like, you need surgery? [00:39:05] Okay. And they’re like. You’ll be better, you’ll be better in, you know, a few weeks, [00:39:10] uh, you know, eight to 12 weeks full recovery. And it’s like, I’m going on month five. I can’t [00:39:15] walk down the stairs yet. Yeah. And I’m like, okay, so what’s happened? So I’ve got 15 [00:39:20] people going. Why aren’t you using peptides? I’m like, what’s a peptide? Yeah. They’re like, go get BPC 1 [00:39:25] 57, or whatever it is. I think that’s it. Yeah. And they’re just like, go, go get this. And I’m, they all have R 2D two Star Wars. Yeah. [00:39:30] Yeah. I’m like, I don’t know what, I don’t know what this is. And then y you know, and then I ran, I [00:39:35] met you. And then, yeah. And then they were like, I, I had a couple friends who were like, you need to listen to the Ben Greenfield [00:39:40] episode on that. I’m like, that’s so funny. Like we, we just kind of became friends and, and that’s what, [00:39:45] and I think that’s happening more, is people are going that.[00:39:50] Zeitgeist in the general population is like, look at [00:39:55] alternative things more than just going to traditional. Yeah. Look at alternative things. And when it comes to [00:40:00] podcasting, when you have your. Um, [00:40:05] you know, your, your, your vocal worm inside the ear of someone for, you know, an [00:40:10] hour, twice a week. Uh, you know, when they’re lifting weights at the gym, there is a trust relationship that’s [00:40:15] built because they know, oh, I’ve talked to people for 18 years about this and it’s my job [00:40:20] to dig into this stuff, and I’ve jammed up these needles into my own knee and, you know, tried these different rehab programs [00:40:25] and yeah, I mean, back to the knee thing, you know, something as simple as if you source it properly, you know, [00:40:30] BPC 1 57 and TB 500, combined with something like. Ben Patrick’s knees over [00:40:35] toes strengthening program is transformative for a lot of people who just have basic knee [00:40:40] issues and need to get back in action. Huh? So, um, you should listen to my podcast with him, Ben Patrick. [00:40:45] Okay. One, one of the best guys for rehabbing the knees. I will go, I will go listen to it. Ben Patrick. And then, um, then the other [00:40:50] sources of income and, and, and why I’m sitting here in this chair with you would be, um, [00:40:55] books and speaking. Two, two areas that I will admit I have kind of severely [00:41:00] underplayed. Like I, I speak in the tiny little echo chamber that is like health conferences [00:41:05] with the occasional lucky how they find out about me, you know, keynote that I might give to a [00:41:10] financial group or whatever. Um, but I love to be on [00:41:15] stage. Mm. I love to command a stage. I love to speak. I was on speech and debate in college. I’ve always [00:41:20] loved to deliver my message in a powerful way from stage, and I have. [00:41:25] Rarely, I shouldn’t say rarely, but I have, um, I’ve inadequately [00:41:30] focused on developing that part of my business, and I also [00:41:35] have, when it comes to books, written for me. Which means I [00:41:40] like big technical coffee table style 700 page books with every last piece of [00:41:45] information that you’d ever need to know. And, uh, and it’s great when it arrives at my house. [00:41:50] It’s this work of art, but it doesn’t do a, a great deal of favors for the book scan [00:41:55] numbers. And so if there, if there’s two things, two, two reasons that you and I are sitting here and, and why we met [00:42:00] and why I came to you is I want to be a better author and a better speaker. But, but, but those are, you know, those are [00:42:05] sources of revenue for me. Yeah, well I love that ’cause it’s like, I don’t know a lot [00:42:10] about a lot, but I know a lot about a couple things and those are two things that we, you’ve got the reputation we know, we [00:42:15] know a lot about, so, okay, so let’s talk about that, right? Like, uh, you know, we have people listen to [00:42:20] this show that have hired me to speak and all this kind of thing. And so I think the connection point there to me [00:42:25] is to go, what do entrepreneurs. And employees [00:42:30] and entrepreneurs, and executives, what do they need to be doing? What do they need to know about [00:42:35] health? That’s, you know, not the 700 page version, but it’s like, all right, what are the [00:42:40] things that I need to be doing right now to optimize my performance as an an executive? [00:42:45] As an entrepreneur, right? What are, what are some of those things? How do I get the body and brain that I [00:42:50] need for boundless energy at my beck and call all day long so I can, yeah. And that’s said, it’s like, it may not be [00:42:55] bodybuilding, I just want the impact that I wanna make in life. Yes. Yeah. Not, not to be a bodybuilder. Um, [00:43:00] and, and if you, let me give you an example. If you were to read, let’s say, like, [00:43:05] um, men’s Health or Women’s Health Magazine, or, or most popular. [00:43:10] Literature in the health and fitness world, you would come across a lot of of advice [00:43:15] and admittedly pretty good advice about how to move well and how to eat well, [00:43:20] like. Here’s the diets that generally work well for people, and here’s the weight [00:43:25] training or the cardiovascular programs that you can do. And that is the message that [00:43:30] a lot of people hear when it comes to health is, I, I need to move more and eat [00:43:35] less, or move differently and eat differently. And that is a hundred percent true.