Author: AJ Vaden

Ep 609: The Unexpected Path from Miss USA to Emmy-Winning Journalist with Lu Parker

Rory: [00:00:00] Hey, we have a special treat for you today. One of my dear friends, Lou Parker is a six time Emmy award-winning journalist. This woman is brilliant and funny and insightful. Um, she is on live television and has been for years, like 20 hours every single week. Uh, she also is a former Miss USA, so we’ll talk about how she went from teacher to miss USA to award-winning journalist.

And she has covered things in the major news cycle, presidential shins. Um, she’s covered the, uh, January 6th Life insurrection whole situation, school shootings. Uh, she’s won awards for some of her detective journalism around, uh, res rescuing animals and animal rights. And she’s just a delightful human.

And what we’re gonna talk about is a little bit about what it takes to be successful on camera, uh, things around what you need to know about when you’re doing live productions, and also more about finding your voice [00:01:00] and, and having the confidence to say what you really believe. And sort of bringing your offline personality into the online world, uh, and vice versa.

So anyways, Lou, welcome to the show, Craig.

Lu: Thanks. Super happy to be here and really happy to be in person. Who knew I was gonna be in Nashville? I know this worked out, so, so they’re really good. I felt like, uh, you guys reached out to me about the book. I had been thinking about you guys prior. ’cause I always thought I would come here one day and.

And, you know, see you guys at some point and then it all just kind of converged into today. So I’m, I am happy to be here and it, it is nice embalming here in Nashville.

Rory: Yes. It’s, uh, it’s, but

Lu: beautiful, humid in the summertime. Yes. Yeah. It’s fun.

Rory: So I, I wanna start with, um, miss USA and, and I, I know you don’t do as much in that world, but that was a big part of your life, uh, for a while.

And, and I wanna know. What does Miss USA not prepare you for? So you win something like that. Mm-hmm. [00:02:00] Um, I think it certainly has done a lot, you know, it set, set your career in a certain direction. Maybe what does it not prepare you for winning? Winning something like that. And what people might think, oh, you’re definitely gonna learn this, but maybe you didn’t.

Or this, it’s definitely gonna lead to this, but maybe it didn’t.

Lu: Gosh, that’s a great question. And that, um. I, I was open to it all when I, when I won the pageant. So the first thing that popped into my head is that walking into a room, I didn’t expect that I would learn how to do that to any room. Right? To a room that has two like huge name celebrities that I’m meeting as Miss USA or walking into a conference that had 10,000 people and I’m going on stage and I’m young at that time, you know, I was like a little southern girl.

With a big accent and just a former teacher and just happy I was, I had an innocence back then. That was so awesome. You know, [00:03:00] um, as Miss USA walking in to any of those rooms, I think that’s where I learned a lot of my confidence. But I, what you don’t know is just that, wow, this, I didn’t know all that was gonna be happening.

I thought I would just win the pageant and. Um, to be honest, I don’t know if I knew what would happen if I won the pageant, what I was expecting

Rory: to be. Were you super confident going into the pageant or were you nervous about it? Like,

Lu: well, you’re always nervous, obviously. Um, but I had a great, I met this guy randomly at a hair salon.

I was getting my hair done, um, or something. I was working with this lady, uh, who was a friend of mine and there was a guy who did hair and he overheard me say that I was handwriting. My application. ’cause back then you didn’t submit it with emails or anything that didn’t exist. ’cause I won in 1994. Uh, and so it was really interesting and he was like, girl, you can’t hand write your application.

You need to type it. Long story short, he started [00:04:00] working with me, new pageants, um, did it for free. I had no money. Um, he just wanted to be a part of it. And he ultimately taught me manifesting. Right? Like he didn’t know he was teaching me manifesting. But I had confidence going into that pageant so much, miss South Carolina and Miss USA, and ultimately competing at Miss Universe as Miss USA, because he said, and I remember, it always sticks with me.

He said, when you leave this house, when I was a teacher, he said, when you leave this house and you go to the post office box, if you go to school to teach, if you’re going to the gym, you walk out with a crown already on your head.

Both: Mm.

Lu: Right. You already are. Miss USA. Just know that, feel the crown on your head.

And so that is what gave me the confidence. So when I was, and you’re not there to win this congeniality too, ’cause I want to be like, Hey everybody, you’re not there to win Miss Congeniality, you’re there to win the pageant. Right? Which was a little bit of a struggle for me ’cause I had to stay super focused and not get diverted [00:05:00] by having fun.

But I did, to answer your question, I did. I did have a lot of confidence and was nervous. ’cause you’re on stage in front. But you

Rory: were embracing that identity from before it happened. Yes. Which, which I think is something we see consistently, whether that’s in sports or going to war. Yes. Or becoming a bestselling author or a world renowned speaker.

It’s like if you can’t see it in your mind first Yes. Mm-hmm. The likelihood of it ever happening in real life. To me is like less than zero. Like it never accidentally happens. I never meet someone who has competed on a global stage or a national stage like that, and then not say like, I saw it first. Yes.

It’s almost like you have to believe it in your mind before it can ever become a reality. So did, did you also see that about tv? So did you, did you see yourself like, Ooh, I’m gonna be a journalist, I’m going to be on, I’m gonna be on tv. In one of the biggest markets in the world like Los Angeles? Like did you always see that or was [00:06:00] that more accidental?

Hundred percent not. Oh, it was accidental. And

Lu: back to your original question, that is probably the answer, is that what I didn’t see that was gonna happen by winning this USA, was that I was going to become a journalist. Mm-hmm. Because I had no idea I would ever be in TV or want to be in tv. Like that was so off.

My radar 100%, but it was in the cards. Um, I was living in LA because when I won Miss USA, they moved you to Los Angeles. So I was living there for the year, fell in love with California, lived for a year as Miss USA, then you have to give it up. And then I stayed in LA and started doing like dilly dally acting classes.

And I was a horrible actress. Like I hated it. I was horrible like. So embarrassed that I even like took classes. But I had an agent at the time who was, you know, sending me out on all these, uh, acting things, and she said, Hey, there were these trades that you can look at where jobs are [00:07:00] available. Again, on paper, not, not online.

And it said there’s an education reporter’s job available at the CVS affiliate in Charleston, South Carolina, where I’m originally from, and who had also followed me to the Miss USA and Universe Pageant. Now, did they create that to entice me? Did it just appear because that was my path? We’ll never know.

Um, went back to interview with them and. Three times and told them no three times. ’cause I didn’t want to leave la Mm. And I didn’t want to come back. So I was like, if I come back, like, and, but I ultimately talked to my acting coach at the time and he said, and he’s, and this is great advice as well, just in general, he said, uh, if you’re, as long as you’re on camera, you’re working right.

So no matter what it is, you’re working Right. As opposed to sitting out here. Now he could have given me a different answer. He could have said, you know, stick it out here a little bit longer. I probably wouldn’t have gone. So that advice, [00:08:00] I was like, okay, that he’s right. At least I’ll be on camera. And I moved back and then, you know, then ultimately you have to work years and years and years to, then it took me 10 years to get back to la.

Mm.

Rory: Yeah. That’s interesting. ’cause I think of like speaking. And it’s like even if you’re practicing to the mirror, it’s like it’s super valuable. You’re going through the awkward motion of being in front of an audience, even if it’s just you. Yes. And like those great point hours, those are reps. And you know, fast forward to the modern world, I think of the same thing.

It’s like if you’re a content creator, it’s like, how much time are you in front of a microphone or in front of a camera? Because it’s like, if you’re not, how are people ever gonna find, like, how are you ever gonna get good? And then how are, how are you ever gonna produce enough content that people ever, ever find you?

Lu: Yeah. You have to do the work, even if it’s ugly. Right. Even if it’s bad. Even if you feel like, oh, you’re just gonna crawl outta your skin. Right. I remember doing live shots, uh, outside of an, I mean, they were such [00:09:00] easy stories, like literally so easy. And I, my heart rate. Would just be like, they’d be like three, two, and they’d point at me, whatever.

My heart rate just, it was. Um, and you know, I would flub it because I would memorize it. Another great point. I would memorize everything as opposed to knowing your message. Right. What’s the difference? So, um, I, I was the only one on this story. No one else knew the story, so I’m the messenger, right, to tell the audience.

So I don’t need to memorize it. I just need to sort of have my format, like an outline, and then just tell the story. Like, Hey guys, I’ve been here, you know, the school board meeting started at five 30, they voted on A, B, C, and D, and here’s what they had to say, and then tossed to the story, right? I would have it like all set.

So if I messed up one word. It would freak out liter. I wouldn’t freak out, but there was always a pause ’cause I wasn’t good enough to pick it back up.

Both: Yeah.

Lu: Um, but it’s a great point [00:10:00] now is that, don’t memorize what you’re going to say on social media. Right. Just have a feeling for, like, I, I saw the interview you did with Nicholas, uh, is it Nicholas?

Nicholas John, yeah. Nicholas John Nicholas. The key. Yeah. How he sort of basic, he said, you know, he sits down and sometimes records them, but he likes to feel it in the moment. Right. It’s when you get that aha moment of like, oh, this, I need to share this, or I want to share this. Yes. Or How beautiful was that?

Sit down at that moment and either write it out, but more importantly, if you are on camera, get on camera and do it. Right, because then that’s when the beautiful softness comes out. The, the emotion might come out because it’s, it’s your emotion. Right. As opposed back to don’t memorize it. Mm-hmm. Because people know when you’ve memorized something.

When it doesn’t feel right.

Rory: Yes. Now you. For the longest time TV was like the only live broadcasting, I mean radio too. Yeah. But, but now all of us have a button that we can [00:11:00] push to go live. You and I went live last week. Mm-hmm. Or a couple weeks ago. ’cause you were helping us support us for our book launch.

Yeah. We did it

Lu: on Instagram and

Rory: we went live and so many people are terrified of going live, which I understand, right. As a speaker, which was like kind of my classic trait there is this like. You’re, you know, you can’t edit. Right. You’re doing it. So how do you overcome the fear of being live? Mm-hmm.

Knowing that like, there’s no editing this moment. Mm-hmm. And what happens here?

Lu: Well, I’m very comfortable live only because, like you mentioned in the intro, I’m live every day for four hours a day. Like, and granted it’s me. Reading a prompter, but sometimes when breaking news happens, it, the prompter goes out of the room, right?

So everything’s live ear pieces, um, telephone calls, what we’re seeing on the screen. Uh, and it’s one of those things [00:12:00] when we have a choice to tape something in TV or make it live. Same thing with Instagram. You can tape it or ins or do it live. I always choose live really. I always choose live, and I always prefer my guests to be, I want to interview the guests live too, because what happens if you don’t?

The guests will say, uh, they’ll start talking and then they get in their head and they forget. They’re thumbing. They’ll be like, oh, wait, can I start over? Mm. Right. Or, or they’re trying to edit it as they’re saying it to make it perfect, but when they know it’s live, you gotta pull. You’re gonna, it’s a, it is a muscle.

So I think the more you go live, the better you get. Even if you’re not good. In the beginning, like I was horrible and that’s why I started in a small market. ’cause you can mess up and not get fired. Then you move to a medium market and you’re a little bit better, but you’re still gonna fumble because you’re gonna get a different type of story.

Right? Or a lot, now you’re doing live interviews on camera, right in the field at a shooting or something with a police officer, and then it [00:13:00] becomes. Then you’re on set doing live. So my advice to people, even with Instagram, is do as much live as you can. Obviously when you’re by yourself, that’s, is that live taped, I guess that’s taped.

But live is where you, but do to live

Rory: by yourself on Instagram and just talk to it. Yes. And do that.

Lu: And do it, because then you’ll notice, or at least I notice when I’m taping something for Instagram, I’m a little. Stiffer ’cause I’m in my head. Mm-hmm. But when I know someone’s over there, there’s a feeling, maybe it’s ’cause I’ve worked in TV so long, I just, I know I’m speaking to someone, so it’s like fluid.

My blood pressure sort of goes down and I, I become a little bit more real.

Rory: Mm-hmm. Now what? So on that, one of the things, I’ve been on national TV a couple times. Mm-hmm. And like I remember. That’s like, I was on Fox News Morning. Mm-hmm. And it was so fast. Yeah. It was like a four minute segment. Mm-hmm. And it literally felt like 10 [00:14:00] seconds.

Yeah. I mean, I couldn’t believe how fast it went by. Yeah. How do you get to the point quickly? How do you tell a story? Like, you know, if you’re doing a story, like you’re saying, you might only have two minutes or something to tell the, tell the story. Do you have any tips for. Being very concise. ’cause I feel like, again, most of this, I, most people listening to this are probably never going to host a TV show.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But all of us are being pressed by the algorithm and the videos and the shortening attention spans. Yes. To like get to the point quickly. How do you do that particularly in a live moment?

Lu: A lot of stuff is coming up in my head. Um, Oprah just said, I saw her talking the other day that she, every time back in the day for her show, and she still does it, is that she’ll say before she does any of that, she’ll say, what is my intention for this segment?

What is my intention for this interview that I’m getting ready to go do on Fox? Right? [00:15:00] What is the intention? So set that right so you can always come back to that intention, almost like your book Come back to the purpose, right? Always come back to the purpose. And then with us with TV, and it’s bled now into Instagram, is that you wanna get them everyone’s attention within the first three to seven seconds, right?

Mm-hmm. So I learned as a journalist when I was in the field writing stories, I always led with my juiciest soundbite. Either emotion, like sadness, someone crying, unfortunately, or someone laughing. Or the sound of like kids in a playground, whatever it was, because you want to grab them. You don’t wanna just start with, today we were on the playground and it was fun as opposed to like, kids like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So it’s more about like lead with the good stuff, right? Mm-hmm. Lead with your emotion, but then if you have sound or if you have a good quote or if you have, um, a philosophy, but like with you [00:16:00] too, going on. We onto Fox. You probably had set questions that they asked you not set, but you sort of, kind of knew what they were.

Kept talking points. Yeah, just keep it concise. Like we also say, um, you know, keep it, keep it simple, stupid. Like that’s kind of a, it, it reminded me when I would have this great story and I’d be in the live truck riding and we needed to keep it at 1 15, 1 30 minutes, like a minute, 90 seconds. I could tell a story in 90 seconds.

A whole story. But sometimes I’d want to tell it in 1 54, but I knew 1 54 was too long and it actually felt too long.

Rory: That is crazy. Uh, well, and even like hooks, like today, everyone talks about hooks, but it was like, to me, the local news was the master of hooks long before, because the tease, uh, the tease, the tease, the Ts, the Ts, the T, it was just like.

Uh, you know, new study comes out like, there’s something causing cancer all around town. It might be in your refrigerator. Find out what it is. I

Both: [00:17:00] like, I got, I

Rory: mean, that was, yeah. And, and now it’s like everybody’s learning, having to learn that skill. Did you write your own hooks or does somebody else kind of write?

I

Lu: have in the past. Okay. Now I don’t, I go in and edit sometimes over the years, like I’ve just noticed, I’ll, I’ll go in and edit like, um. Boring verbs. Like I want a, you want action verbs as opposed to was going, you know, you can be like, he jumped, he was going to jump, or what? Like you don’t want it to be like, um.

Just kind of, you want action verbs no matter what it is and like a strong word, more of a strong word. But the teases are amazing. Like now when I help people edit, my friends will have me edit like a story or something. Not a news story, but just something you can just kind of find that as a journalist, writing over the years and having to write fast.

It’s really interesting how you can go in and just take out that, like you don’t need the word that on really anywhere. If you notice the word that is like irrelevant. [00:18:00] Um, and then just tightening sentences. And for, in your case, or if anyone’s listening and they’re doing an interview, they’re being interviewed, which I’m not doing a very good job right now ’cause I’m rambling on and on.

But if you’re on TV and you know, you have four minutes mm-hmm. And they’re anchors are getting ready to ask you all these questions, answer the question, know what you’re gonna answer, but, and then just stop. And then they’ll ask you another question. Don’t feel like you have to be in control of the interview.

Both: Mm.

Lu: Because then you’ll blow through all the questions we have people come on that’ll blow through all our questions in like their first statement, and then we’re like, uh oh. But we’re good enough. You know? ’cause we’ve been on, we’ll just kind of backtrack and ask some different questions. But let it

Rory: toss back and forth.

Yeah. And be punchy rather than long-winded.

Lu: Yes. And, and you know, back to the pageant days when I think one of the reasons I won Miss USA to be honest, is that, um, to be honest, is another great, not a good thing to say. Like, I’m trying not to say that [00:19:00] either, because like, aren’t you honest all the time?

It’s like, so now I’m just being honest, so I’m trying to take that out and I just said it. But, um, to be, to be truthful, um, when I was. Interview. We had one-on-ones with each judge for four minutes. Okay. And I treated them as a friend at a party. Okay. I did not treat them as celebrities or agents or just like in your mindset.

I sat down and said, these are my friends. I’m meeting them at a cocktail party. Even though it was weird. ’cause some people were celebrities. Right. And I was young and, and, and I really think, and I always talk, ask them questions. Like about like, or if they, she had a hat on and then she started talking about her hat, or like, I always put it back on them.

So it’s not always about you. Sure. Right. So that’s always another great thing where make it feel like it’s a conversation as opposed to answering the question. Like, answer the question stop. Answer the question. Stop. Just don’t ramble on.

Rory: So I want to ask [00:20:00] you about. Live TV debacle. Mm-hmm. What’s the, what’s the, like, I know that you cover it up, right?

Like when it’s live you have to recover. Are there any, or what’s, what is one that you can think of that was like, this is the most disastrous thing that ever happened to me on live tv, and I’m just curious, like, what was it or what, how did, how did you respond? Well, two

Lu: things happened. One, the first time I was ever on.

An anchor desk as a reporter. So the two anchors were up there and I was a reporter and I was doing a story, so I would’ve been, they would’ve said, and Lou Parker is here now with the story, Lou, and I’d be sitting, right. I was sitting right next to them. And so I’m supposed to say, hi, John and Tammy, and then I’m supposed to turn to the prompter, which is here, and everything’s supposed to be there.

And you know, of course I’m nervous. I’m like brand new. And I turned to the prompter that I had written, and it was supposed to scroll and it was going like this. So I have Nothing was showing. No, all the [00:21:00] words were just, oh, like fast forward or something. We’re not sure what happened. I don’t know what happened.

This is your

Rory: first time ever. I

Lu: think I blocked it out because I don’t remember first time ever being able to, I mean, that’s pretty scary. It was bad. But the other one that was really good is, so there’s a term in, um, TV called Stretch, and you probably know it too, like just stretch where we, the person’s not here yet.

The interview’s, not, the phone’s not on. So just stretch. Or in breaking news we say stretch a lot. So just

Rory: like draw it out. Like fill the, fill the time. Yeah. We, I need you to

Lu: fill the time stretch. Okay. So I am new reporter. I’ve been given the opportunity to go to Disney on Ice and be the love Disney on Ice.

I know, right? But it was Friday. Um, and every Friday at six o’clock we would have, which is kind of dangerous thinking back in the day. Like we just would have the reporter out there talking and people would call in. And ask questions, which is I, they would scan and make sure they weren’t, you know, like crazies.

But it was, [00:22:00] we, I had answered two or three with someone. I was like, oh, this is working, this is asking a lot of a new reporter. Like, I didn’t know what I was doing. Right. And to be like clear, I had a friend, I was dating a guy in North Carolina who had a friend named Jason, but they called him Stretch, right?

So. My producer’s in my ear and the other person’s talking to me like, yeah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. My producer says, um, stretch. I thought they were saying Your next caller is a name stretch. So when that person stopped, I said, our next caller is stretch. And my producer was like, no. Oh, right, no. Oh, yeah.

Started yelling, right? Your ear yelling like, no, like, and the photographer fell like he fell ’cause he started laughing, but I didn’t understand because I didn’t know what stretch was. And she was like, just keep talking. So that I, I didn’t live that down. I mean, that was like for many, many years actually, people knew about it.

When I [00:23:00] got to San Antonio, someone knew about it, which is embarrassing. It doesn’t sound as bad. But it was bad.

Rory: I, I I The idea of listening to a person Yeah. Talking and hearing someone in your ear that freaks me out. Yeah. Like, I’m like, how do I, my, I don’t, my brain cannot give all of those.

Lu: It’s a dance.

Those dance, it’s a dance. The producer has to be good. It’s when, when you have a good producer, they know when that pause comes, they know when to say, Hey, we have sergeant, blah, blah, blah, on the line while my co-anchors talking. And then once I start talking, she’ll find, or he will find a space just to, they don’t ramble on in our ear.

’cause once they hit that it cuts all the audio. I only can hear them. Wow. It is a dance that,

Rory: that, that’s tricky. Mm-hmm. Okay. So I want another shocking moment that people would not know about.

Lu: Oh no.

Rory: I know you’ve interviewed lots of celebrities. Yeah. What celebrity shocked you the most or surprised you the most?

Or what sort of [00:24:00] celebrity interview did you do where you were like, that was not at all what I was expecting.

Lu: Yeah.

Rory: Uh, ’cause you’ve interviewed a bunch of ’em.

Lu: Gosh. So Tom Cruise was very, very cool. I, I interviewed him on the cruise carpet. Tom Cruise is very cool. Yes. But I wasn’t expecting him to be very like.

High like he was, but he, and he could have been like high and, but he was very present without being flirty. Right. So it wasn’t a flirty thing. It was very like present. And I, I remember thinking it was very, it was a lot of energy in a good way. Right. But he just has a lot of energy that I remember that.

But he was

Rory: like engaged with you? Very engaged. Not like, I’m too good for you. No, very engaged and not like, I’m trying to like, come on to you answer

Lu: the questions. It was like perfection, like he was. He was really cool. Interesting. Yeah. And then, um, Aretha Franklin, I got to interview before her concert at, um, SoFi Stadium, or one of the large staples maybe before it got [00:25:00] switched over.

And I knew I was gonna interview her, but I wasn’t sure like what that would look like. And I, and then I was like, oh my God, I’m interviewing Aretha Franklin. Like, really? This is gonna, and I was expecting her to come in like big, like. I want this, I need that. I need blah, blah, blah. And when I tell you like I felt like she was a sister when she walked in the room, it was so the beautiful.

Just conversation we had and just being able to sit there with her and then all of the old school managers from back in the day, all the big names that, you know, like came in with her too. She had no ego and those are the cool things when you meet somebody that big, that could have come in huge in ego and she wasn’t.

It was, it was really special.

Rory: I love that. Yeah.

Lu: It’s really nice.

Rory: I wanna talk about FAME for a second. Mm-hmm. What have you learned about fame? Um, you, you know, you have a level of fame. I mean, you’re starting off with being Miss USA, but then also, I mean, around [00:26:00] la like everybody knows you. I mean, they see you every day for hours.

Um, also you’ve interviewed a lot of famous people, been around a lot of famous people, and I think there are some people, uh, maybe a lot of people who would listen to this or watch this, that might think, Hey, I really, they want to be famous. Hmm. Is there anything that you would say to somebody who wants to be famous about what they should know about it?

Kind of going into that journey or pursuit?

Lu: Yeah. Well, I’ll definitely say that being famous is your career, right? Whatever you’re gonna be famous at as a, as a actress or a actor or a TV person, or whatever it is that you are aspiring to be. Ultimately that’s never, you can, you’re gonna get there, but that is not what’s going to love you and fulfill you.

Mm-hmm. It’s really kind of crazy. I just heard a professional golfer talking about this [00:27:00] yesterday, and I think it was shuffler. Mm-hmm. I could, at a press conference, he was talking about this and he, and, and, and I was like, yes sir. I to, I wouldn’t have understood that 10, 15 years ago, but I get it now like.

We pursue and pursue and pursue and pursue and pursue. And we’re on a treadmill. And we’re on a treadmill trying to, you know, satisfy something or someone ourselves, or someone in the past, or our parents or whatever it is, but ultimately that win, whatever that is, does not love you. And so the advice is yes, if you wanna be famous, if you want to be, you know, known or.

When golf tournaments or BN TV news or have 1.1 million followers, again, those 1.1 million followers love you, but they’re not gonna be there at four o’clock in the morning for you if you need something, right? Mm-hmm. Um, just to remember, to love and support the people around you. Right? And re never forget who you [00:28:00] are.

Right? Don’t sell your soul to be that. Because if you sell your soul to be that, then it’s gonna be empty at the top.

Rory: Mm-hmm. I think that’s that. I, you know, Jim Carrey has a quote, something to the effect of like, I wish everyone could be rich and famous Yes. To, because then they would just know that it’s not what’s gonna, you know, bring their heart fulfillment.

Lu: Right. Because the heart fulfillment. The heart fulfillment is. The hard fulfillment is you doing the work and getting quiet. The older I get, the more it’s like getting quiet and, and finding that, finding the purpose. Finding a spiritual practice, finding whatever that spiritual practice looks like. Breath work, church, friends, um, getting quiet, loving you, right?

Like always coming back to you, which we’re not taught to come back to ourselves. We’re always taught to be. The external world will make us happy. But really it’s like that whole thing where like I got, I’m gonna go to [00:29:00] India to go search myself, but you’re still with you. You’re still with you. So you can find yourself in a closet in your house.

You know, if you get quiet enough and do enough work, you can really find yourself. And then when you get to the top or the middle, or whatever your goals are in a relationship or wherever, you’re more grounded, right? ’cause you love you and you are worthy.

Rory: Yes. So you and I talked a little bit about this.

You, you shared an irony about yourself with me before we started, that you’ve used your voice, your entire career mm-hmm. To report the news, tell other people’s stories, conduct interviews, but that there’s an irony that sometimes you struggle to find your own voice in what, what does that mean exactly.

And. Talk talk. Um, tell me a little bit about that. Like, uh, what’s that been like to, to, I guess, have some of that [00:30:00] realization and how, how do you find your own voice after making a career of like telling other people’s stories?

Lu: It’s been a really long journey. Um, and I didn’t even know, I didn’t have my voice until it just hit me that I did, I had not been using my voice, and I think it’s.

The more research I do on it, younger girls have their voice until around puberty and then then to their twenties and like late twenties. And typically that’s when we start to lose our voice because we either are told, you know, in relationships or jobs or in society or wherever it is that speaking up and taking space can be aggre looked at as aggressive.

Um, it can be like taking up too much room or even, even I think the worst is like that. It’s not feminine to speak up. You know, I was taught that like, not necessarily just by my parents. My parents were super supportive, um, all through my life, [00:31:00] but I think society and growing up in the south too, like, be a good girl.

Be a sweet girl. Don’t, don’t cause any ruffles, you know, so I, I grew up as a people pleaser, you know, and I don’t wanna look like that person that’s speaking up and using her voice. So granted I was. Um, successful and going up a path. I just wasn’t using my voice right. Then I started using my voice, um, with animal advocacy and I think that’s where I started really getting out there and talking and like really helping the community.

And then I was using my voice, obviously through journalism, but it’s different ’cause you can hide, right? ’cause journalism is so I’m telling someone else’s story. I’m not like speaking up Sure. Or animals or speaking up for the community or um, or speaking up for yourself. Um, and then,

Rory: um, did you run into that a lot in terms of like, just being a female in TV and entertainment?

I mean, it’s, there’s this irony of like, Hey, we want you to play this role, but also like, not have [00:32:00] too much power, not take up too much space. I mean, did you, did you, have you bumped into that in terms of just. Being a woman in a professional, you know, like a very competitive environment. It is a

Lu: competitive environment and it’s a dog eat dog environment.

Uh, uh, as long, I mean all a lot of professions are, but tv very much so. ’cause you’re having to climb the ladder and push and pull and, um, you just, I always tell, I used to always tell the girls, like the younger girls, they would be like, well, they’d be concerned about someone coming in and their job getting taken.

And I was like, you cannot look over your shoulder. You have to like. Always look forward as the female or male, but I again, always go back to the female. But you have to look forward and look at your accomplishments. I did that during the pageant too. ’cause all the girls that were around me were beautiful, successful in shape.

If I started focusing on them, then you lose your power, right? So I would tell the girls like, don’t look over your shoulder. But at the same time, all that stuff creeps up for us [00:33:00] too. Because over the years we’ve been told, like once you. Get older, you’re not gonna be on camera as long as the men or whatever.

Now that’s changing for sure. Um, I’m one of the oldest, um, at the station, uh, at KTLA. I’ve been there 20 years, which is crazy. I’ve done like every, um, schedule every segment, but I think it’s more of just knowing that if you know something is not right. At your work, in relationship in society, at the animal shelters across the world, wherever it is, and it is tugging at your heart.

Like you, you are allowed to go out and talk about it. Mm. And speak the truth. You’re allowed to and you’re not. You’re not gonna make everybody happy. And I’m now, as we know on social media, people are gonna beat you up about it. Or they’re gonna be like, oh, she thinks blah, blah, blah. Or she did that. Well, how can she say that?

Um. You if you know it’s the truth. If you’re speaking your [00:34:00] truth and you really believe something, you have not only the right to speak up, you have a little bit of a responsibility to speak up for yourself, but also for the girls that are coming up from behind us. ’cause like even like all the women who pave the road for me at in tb, like Barbara Walters, like can you imagine what she went through as a female anchor like it was.

Intense, but she just stayed in there and she paved the way. She said, no, I’m speaking up for myself. I deserve also to be at this desk. I wouldn’t be at the desk if it weren’t for her.

Rory: Mm-hmm. You know, I wanna talk, I want you to talk to younger women right now for a second, because you have, among, among all the things that you’ve done, you’ve also been highly critiqued.

I mean, from being in a beauty pageant to. Being on TV and you have your producers, but then you have like all of these people watching you, uh, you know, even on your Instagram, right. I’ll see people saying [00:35:00] things that have nothing to do with like your character or something. They’re just like commenting on, on your appearance or if, and I think that is something that, you know, if you put yourself out there, you’re going to, that’s going to happen.

Yeah. There’s no way that you put yourself out there. And particularly, I wanna hear from you about. You know, if there’s a younger woman who’s listening to this or watching, what would you whisper in her ear right now about when she is critiqued? When she critiques herself, when, you know, whatever, whatever is, because that’s going to come if she’s in front of people.

Mm-hmm. And, and if she is using her voice. What did what you want her to know?

Lu: Well, I, and I will speak to them, but I think it’s every woman no matter what age you are. Mm-hmm. Because I think once you know, a woman can be 72 and still be reluctant to use her voice or feel like, oh, I shouldn’t wear that dress.

Or, [00:36:00] you know, I want to wear those cowboy boots, but maybe I shouldn’t ’cause I’m 72. You can wear those cowboy boots if you want to wear those, those sparkly pink cowboy boots. Um, I think the first word that came in my mind when you were talking is that nothing is perfect. No one is perfect. There’s no definition of perfection, right?

So once we let go of that, ’cause all women, and some men too obviously are, we’re all searching to be perfect, perfect body. The perfect attitude, the perfect house, the perfect life, the perfect everything right? And. Yeah, there’s nothing is perfect if you try to define it. It’s really you. Everyone’s got a different de definition of that, right?

Mm-hmm. So for myself, working through the pageant world, I was kind of young and just was like working out and doing my thing and just kind of went through it. Plus you’re not really concerned that much then ’cause you’re like young and you just kind of make it happen. Um, meaning. [00:37:00] That you can work out and perfect things and not judge yourself as much, I think.

Um, but now as you get older and those times progress, I think the judgment comes from society and that with this Instagrams, everyone, Instagram and all the Facebooks and the tiktoks, everyone looks so perfect and so beautiful and we’re not, and if we can just sit to that woman younger or older, if.

Looking in the mirror like you were doing the speech in the mirror. I sometimes, and you’ve probably heard this before, I sometimes like say hi to myself in the mirror now. Like, as opposed to waking up and saying, dang, what happened? Like, you look tired, your hair looks like hell. You know, did you gain weight last night?

Or, I mean, ’cause we say stuff like that, right? Like, and I’m, you know, I shouldn’t have done that. Now I need to, you know, I’m gonna look horrible on camera today. Right? There’s a lot of that pressure. Um, as opposed to saying good morning, like, how’d you sleep last [00:38:00] night? Um, I love you. Like, really? Look, it’s so creepy and beautiful at the same time.

To literally look at yourself in the mirror, eye to eye and look at yourself and say, I love you. Like it’s heavy. And then you’re, then you realize, oh yeah, I’m a person too. Right. I’m not just an object that I’m having to like look good for, to get a guy or look good to keep my job or look good in on my Instagram post.

I think you and I talked about it when I, when you, when I interviewed you, is that I was, I find sometimes when I’m posting and I don’t look up to my par what I think I should look like.

Both: Mm-hmm.

Lu: Um, I won’t post it. I’ve, I’ve, I’ve written, I’ve. Said things before and like recorded things and won’t post it.

’cause I’m like, and then I’m, and I’m getting better at it now. I’m like, you know what? I don’t care. Like if someone judges me because like a piece of [00:39:00] hair was out or, you know what, whatever I’m judging myself for, um, who cares anymore. Like, I’ve gotten to a point where I’m, I mean, I do care. Obviously I care, like, um, but I’m not so hard on myself anymore.

So I think that’s another great nugget of advice to the girls too, is like, it’s okay to, like, don’t be so hard on yourself. Like it really is okay, no one’s perfect. We’re all making our way through this. No one’s actually looking at you. They’re, they’re worried about themselves. They’re, they’re really not.

They, they might look at you for a second, but it’s really, they’re gonna go back to themselves of what, what, what their issues are. You know?

Rory: Yeah. I love what you said about the mirror too. Like I’ve noticed even with myself, it’s like if I just sort of look vaguely at the mirror mm-hmm. You know, I see my body.

Yeah. But when I get close and I look at my eyes, like everything fades away. And it’s almost like I see my real self, your

Lu: soul. You see your soul. That’s why they say the eyes are the window to the [00:40:00] soul. Mm-hmm. And even like with interviewing too, like if I like look, literally look at you. Mm-hmm. And like, look at your eyes right now, it’s a more intense.

Because we’re looking at each other. ’cause a lot of times people interview or talk or just in general, we can be at a cocktail party, but we talk like this. Right. ’cause it is scary to go there. Right, right. I, I did this really cool retreat one time, um, where, uh, up in Bicker and they had us sit with one of the people that were in our group or whatever.

We had been there for two days. So I felt like I sort of knew the people, but I didn’t. It’d be, and we, we sat and we had to stare at each other for four minutes and not divert our eyes. And it is fascinating what happens. Even if you do it with someone you know, it’s still gonna be fascinating and awkward.

Yeah. But you don’t divert and people laugh, then the tears come or they get really quiet and then, [00:41:00] or it’s more laughter. Because they’re uncomfortable.

Both: Mm-hmm.

Lu: And then it’s just quiet and then there are a lot of tears. Mm-hmm. Right. But when you’re done, you feel like you’ve actually seen someone in that more important, they’ve seen you.

Mm. Right. So you’ve shared this really beautiful existence with each other. We don’t do that enough in society, I don’t think.

Rory: That’s amazing how much you can sense about how a person’s really feeling when you look them right in the eyes. And, and if they won’t look you in the eyes mm-hmm. That’s always like, wow, there’s something going on.

Mm-hmm. Like there’s some really, they’re, they, they’re not steady enough to even look at another person. Yeah. Um, and that’s why I think, you know, I don’t remember where I heard this, but somebody was, was I heard this story about, or was somebody who was homeless and they said what they miss most is having people look at them.

Right. See them. It’s like they just, they like, you see ’em and you look [00:42:00] past them. Yes. And they’re just like, I don’t, nobody looks at me. Yeah. Um,

Lu: and you know, to that point, I, one of the things I try to do, I don’t always give money to the person or, and if I have food or something in the car, like I’ve done things like that before, but I think even just.

When they’re walking by your car or they’re standing there instead of ignoring them. Like most people, like, I’ll either wave at them or look, look at them and smile, and they light up and smile right back. They don’t have, they don’t, it’s not gonna, they don’t, I would say 99% of it happened. Oh, that’s an open invitation to come to my window that I’m gonna, you know, like give you something.

It’s just an acknowledgement. Of them. You know, it really, it is. That’s so powerful. But I think we all need that.

Rory: Yeah. So, and, and I wanna, I wanna also ask you like on the, on this topic of kind of like you brought up, you interviewing a few times. I think another skill that, [00:43:00] another skill that’s very much transferring from TV to like everybody is the skill of interviewing.

Mm-hmm. Because we are going live together on social, we’re doing, we’re doing podcasts, you know, we also have to interview our customers for. You know, testimonials and like sharing, sharing their stories. The, is there anything that you’ve learned, like something you used to do wrong as an inter interviewer or something that you used to do that now, after a couple decades of interviewing both celebrities and non-celebrities telling everyday ordinary stories and also these extravagant, like world changing moments that you’ve covered.

Is there anything that you’ve changed in how you conduct an interview now versus when you first got into journalism?

Lu: A couple things. Um, one, listen, because you can have your questions and then the answer from the person you’re interviewing kind of goes somewhere else and then all of a sudden [00:44:00] you do number two question.

It’s like, ah. You have to kind of go where you’re good at it. You’ve done it in this interview where I went somewhere a little bit off of what you asked me. And then instead of going back to, you know, number eight that you were planning to ask me today, you picked up on that. It’s mirroring, right? It’s mirroring like what, what’s happening in the moment.

Right? And I also believe in doing your research, you did that well too. Like you just. Set it off the cuff to the camera, like who I am and the bio, and doing your research, and always going a little deeper than the, than most people would do in terms when, when I’m. Say that as like find a little bit more, not just the normal of like who Roy is.

Like try to find a little something else that he’s interested in or a fact like maybe where he went to school or like that wouldn’t have come up or like one of your favorite hobbies or whatever it is. Just go a [00:45:00] little deeper because people ultimately want to talk about themselves, right? And so when you, they realize that you’ve done the work to like show up.

Read the book. If you’re gonna interview someone, read the book or listen to it. It’s re I mean, if you’re being interviewed,

Rory: you can’t read the whole book. You read the whole book. That’s what I’m saying. When you interview somebody do

Lu: Well. I do know. No, not always. Always. Like youll scan but you at least scan it.

One. But sometimes, you know, in the past I’ve done interviews with people and I haven’t read the book ’cause we get it at the last minute. Sure. Or whatever. What, or I chose not to, I don’t know, it just doesn’t feel the same. I love to go through it and know like at least what their concept are, the like top four concepts and also just the vibe of it.

But you can also listen to audio and hear their voice, like just spend like an additional 20 minutes just getting a little vibe of who they are. Mm-hmm. Um. We are so fast. Like we have three se three [00:46:00] to four segments typically in a day. So like almost every show has a segment and it’s either like cooking or, um, products or a, the doctor will see you now, so a doctor comes on or wish a wish kid, um, segment where a family comes on, or we’ll have a barbecue segment or like, so it’s like stimuli constantly, right?

So, um. Back to your point of just get on camera, get on the microphone. Because the more you do it, the more, or get on stage or talk in the mirror because it’s like reps, like you pennies in a jar. ’cause then you get better at, like, if you’re on stage and you forget your train of thought, you’ve got that rep to pull like, oh, well I can just kind of transfer right here and then figure out what the heck I was talking about before and then get back there.

I’m sure that’s happened with you before. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Rory: Yes, for sure. I, I, I, this, this is. So fun and exciting and useful and I think relevant to just go, I think there’s so many skills, technical [00:47:00] skills today that are come, like out of the TV world that now apply to, to all of us, um, and the most of all, which is just the confidence and the like, you know, self-worth.

Is there anything that I should have asked you that, is there anything I should have asked you that I didn’t ask you? That you think is something that you go, I really want people to know this, or, you know, here’s, here’s something that, you know, I’ve experienced that I think could be useful to a mission-driven messenger who’s listening or watching.

Lu: I would say, and I’m only speaking just from my struggles and my fear of taking that first step in the transition, like I can walk into a TV studio. Or sit on a studio and interview people or go out in the field. I can do it in two seconds and have be amazing confidence. Right? And, and I’m trying to transfer some of my [00:48:00] skills now into maybe some writing and, and more speaking on stage and, and I’m ready.

I know I’m ready. Just like a lot of people are probably ready to do the next step and they, but they’re talking about it a lot. But they’re not doing it. I’m finding myself like, this is what I want to do, but I won’t like actually do it. Right. So I think the confidence comes from I had to go do it. I had to go do the report.

I didn’t want to do, I had to go cover the shooting. I didn’t want to have to go see a body. I, I, you know, I had to show up at two o’clock in the morning and do a morning show for two years. Like, I sometimes I was tired, but like, I. I put my right foot in front of my left foot, and I, I started right again, back to perfection.

Nothing’s perfect, and I’m talking to myself as well. When I’m saying this to everyone who’s listening, just take the step and the universe will trust you. The, the universe, Jesus, I know in your world, [00:49:00] like whatever the plan is, if you believe in yourself, even if you’re shaky, just take that first step. And when you take that first step, the universe goes, oh, they’re ready to move.

And whatever that movement looks like is what it’s supposed to look like and it’ll happen.

Rory: Mm-hmm. Well, Lou, you have been such a symbol of kindness and confidence to so many people and in my life. Thanks. Uh, and I, it, I, I’ve been honored to get to know you. Thank you for sharing some of these insights and, you know, some of these more candid moments from like behind the, behind the scenes that people may not.

Now, where do you want people to go if they want to stay connected with you and kind of follow you in your journey?

Lu: I’m on Instagram, uh, primarily I’m getting on Substack. Oh, soon. So I’m super excited about that, if you’re familiar with Substack and, uh, I’m Blue Parker LA on Instagram. And um, yeah, I’m just, I think that’s the best place for now is just, um, that’s where I’ll probably be making [00:50:00] any announcements or sharing my.

Um, stories or whatever I’m doing. Yeah. Well, thank you for the

Rory: kindness. Thanks for the insight. Thank you. And my friend.

Lu: Thank you for what you’re doing and congratulations on your book. Thank you. Yeah, thank you so much. You’re helping me take the first step.

Rory: I love it.

Lu: Yeah,

Rory: I love it. Thanks. Well, we wish you all the best and we look forward to following you from here.

Lu: Thanks.

Ep 608: Authenticity Made Simple: Tell the Truth About Your Story | Jessica Zweig Recap

Have you ever wondered what it takes to really be authentic? Listen, so many people talk about being authentic, right? It’s like, be your authentic self. Show up authentic, please. Be an authentic leader. Uh, you know, it’s like au authenticity is the new thing. It’s like, yeah, but how, like, what does that even mean?

Like when people talk about being an authentic leader, I’ve always wondered, what do you mean by be an authentic leader? Or it’s like, Hey, authenticity is the new way to build trust. And I’m like, but how, and where and when, and. What do you share and how much do you share and where do you share it and when do you share it?

And there’s so much conversation about be authentic and so little conversation of what that actually means. And today I was in a conversation with Jessica Wag, [00:01:00] who we happened to have on our podcast, and it hit me like a lightning bolt for the first time, had somebody put it in plain and simple terms.

What it means to be authentic. So whether or not you agree with this, whether or not this is, uh, true and real to you, this hit me in such a way that I was like, I have to make a separate video just about this because I have wondered, I have asked myself, I have conversated with people for years who are authors on the subject, speakers on the subject.

They do podcasts on the subject, like this is their brand is authenticity, how to be more authentic, and yet I’ve never. Quite clearly understood what that meant. You hear a lot about it, but it wasn’t until today in the most simple and plain terms that it hit me for the first time. That to be authentic simply means to tell the truth.

To tell the truth about your story, to not be [00:02:00] afraid to share the hard parts. That doesn’t mean you need to share all of the hard part, all of the hard parts. But what are the parts where you have learned a life lesson that you have grown from? What are the events in your life that changed you, challenged you, uh, made you make different decisions, helped you reinvent, helped you move forward?

What are those moments? What are those events that were those pivotal moments in your life that said there was a before and that there will be an after. And I think if we all reflect in our life, if we all just took the time to go, what are the stories? What are the events? What are the experiences that I have gone through that make me who I am?

That’s what we’re talking about when we say, just tell the truth. Take a moment, and just be honest that it’s not always easy. Or that it wasn’t always this way [00:03:00] and that maybe the marriage you have today looks really great in photos and videos on social media, but there was a time where you barely made it, or perhaps the business that you run today looks so successful and it looks so easy, and it’s a whole bunch of team members hugging and laughing in pictures.

But it wasn’t always that way because there was a time that it was in complete shambles and in distress, and you didn’t even know if you could make payroll. We love to share the highlight reel. We love to share the mountaintop moments of our life, but that is not what people relate to. That is not what connects people to you, your story or your business.

What makes you relatable? What makes you someone that people wanna follow is to know that you’ve been through the worst of the worst, but yet you’re still going. That you know, you know what it’s like to be tried and to fail. You know what it’s like to be on the very bottom, but yet [00:04:00] you didn’t give up.

Right? To me, those are the stories that attract me. In fact, I’ll tell you a quick story about how I selected my life coach and for, uh, lots of, you know, different intents and purposes, I will leave my coach’s name anonymous, but I was on the hunt for a very long time, uh, for a life coach that I feel like could really help me grow as a leader, as a wife, as a mom, as a human being.

I was in a pretty dark place in 2021. Uh, 2021 was probably the hardest year of my professional life, and I’ve had some hard years. I’ve had years of being fired, starting over, losing my income, um, having to sell my car to make payroll of absolutely just being sued, just obs absolutely horrible things.

None of them really emotionally compared to the year 2021. It was a dark place, uh, in my life. And [00:05:00] our, my marriage was really struggling. I was really struggling. I was not in a good mental state. Uh, looking back, I probably. Uh, was suffering from some deep, dark anxiety and depression. It was a real spiritual battle that whole year.

And, uh, through the grace of God in some really powerful community, I really got encouraged to like, you, you need help. Like you need help. And I tried the counseling route and it just didn’t work for me. Uh, it made it worse. Doesn’t make it work for everyone, but it did for me, and I knew that I just needed someone.

Um, who had been through it, and I had all these recommendations of all these amazing coaches that my friends and, uh, different mentors had used over the years. And here’s what was interesting to me. Everything in their bios, everything on their websites, the conversations that I had, the quote unquote sales calls.

We’re all about all these successful people that they had helped and all these accolades and credentials and certifications and years in business. And [00:06:00] it was, it was a highlight reel. And I just literally left feeling those conversations of like, well, I can’t share my awful dirty truth with these people.

I’m too embarrassed. I’m too ashamed to tell this person how I really feel, how I’m really doing in my life, how I’m really doing in business right now. I can’t do it. And so I did it and then I got reintroduced to an old friend who I had known years before who had also kind of been off of my radar for several years because my coach had gone through a pretty public divorce and, uh, had gone through a pretty public removal of his position, uh, and the organization that my coach was a part of, and.

I had this reckoning moment with this person gets me. I know that they know what it’s like to feel the way that [00:07:00] I feel right now. I know that they have been through what I am going through. I know that I can be honest with this person and this person has now been my coach for four years. And it wasn’t because of the HiFi reel.

It was because I felt like they got me. And how, how did I know that? Because I knew their story. I knew that they had been on the top and fell to the bottom, but they really struggled in their family and in their marriage. That ended in an unfortunate divorce. But I, I also watched this person climb back to an amazing place of grace and forgiveness and goodness and success.

And I was like, well, gosh, if that, if that happened to them. And they’re where they’re at. Maybe that can be me too. Maybe there is a place of restoration and hope for me with how I’m feeling. I chose my life coach because of the story of the trials and the valleys and the hard parts, [00:08:00] not because of the books they had written and the stages they had spoken on, which was all true, but that isn’t what made me hand over my credit card and say, here you go.

It was the fact that I knew they had been in the darkest pit, but they had found a way to climb out and there was hope and peace and forgiveness and light in all of that. And I share that story with you because I think it’s really important that you have to realize that people are more likely going to give you their money, sign up for their, your products and services, tune into your content, be in community with you.

When they know that you’re not ashamed of your truth, that life is hard, but it’s also beautiful that there’s really hard days and that there’s really good days. There are mountaintop moments, but we have just as many valley moments and we have to be able to be willing to share both. We can share the truth and all the good stuff as long as we’re [00:09:00] not hiding the hard stuff.

’cause what I know, what I have found to be true, that it’s in the hard stuff, that you build real authentic community. And that doesn’t mean you have to know those people in real life. You can build real authentic community by someone reading the pages of your book or listening to a podcast you’re on or a piece of content or just hearing your story through a third party friend.

But you can do that. And the way that people remember you is to go, man, there, there’s something in their story that relates to mine. I have a story similar to that. I’ve had feelings like that. I’ve been through things like that. I want to know that I’m in relationship with people who know what it’s like to be me, and that is what it means to be authentic, is that you allow people to get to know you and not just the good parts, but the hard parts.

And that through that you’re able to build trust and you’re able to help people understand that there are gonna be those bottom of the [00:10:00] pit days. But you can climb your way out. There is a way I’ve done it and so can you. So when you think about what it means to be authentic and to just tell the truth, it’s to be honest with the parts of your story that you most often try to hide that you don’t love sharing.

’cause maybe they don’t position you in the best light, but perhaps that’s exactly what your audience needs. Yes. They don’t need to see you in the best light. They just need to see you in the realness of what you’ve been through and how you got to where you are. So to be authentic, all you gotta do is just tell the truth.

Ep 607: Authenticity Is the Strategy: How to Build a Personal Brand That Actually Matters with Jessica Zweig

Rory & AJ Vaden (00:00)
Jessica, I’m so excited. Finally girl. I know. Before we hit record on this y’all, we were just talking about how many friends we have in common, how our paths have crossed in so many ways. And yet today is our first time. have met in person. I’m ready for this moment. But you know what that’s a great testament of is the true nature of a reputation. Amen. And also the power of you can be teaching people, serving people without ever having met them in person. It’s such a testament of

IPBP 607 YouTube Jessica (00:00)
Jessica, AJ, I’m so excited. Finally girl. I know. Before we hit record on those y’all, we were just talking about how many friends we have in common, how our paths have crossed in so many ways, and yet today is the first time we have met in We’re waiting for this moment. But you know what that’s a great testament of is the true nature of a reputation. Amen. And also the power of, you can be teaching people, serving people without ever having met them in person.

It’s such a testament of

Rory & AJ Vaden (00:30)
the power of content and just

IPBP 607 YouTube Jessica (00:30)
the power of content and…

just the work that you’re doing because we both clearly knew about each other. I told her, was like, I have your book sitting on my shelf. That made my whole freaking day. That book is like such a piece of my soul and to know that it exists in the world and that it’s touching people. like, that’s the best thing you can say to an author is you know.

Rory & AJ Vaden (00:32)
the work that you’re doing because we both clearly knew about each other. I told her, was like, have your book sitting on Michelle. That made my whole freaking day. That book is like such a piece of my soul and to know that it exists in the world and that it’s touching people. It’s like, it’s the best thing you can say to an author is you know.

IPBP 607 YouTube Jessica (00:46)
And yes, and I think that’s also the beautiful thing about actually doing work that you deeply love and care about is that it actually helps people get to know you before you ever meet in person. Powered personal brand. I’ve been preaching these for over a decade.

Rory & AJ Vaden (00:46)
Yes, and I think that’s also the beautiful thing about actually doing work that you deeply love and care about is that it actually helps people get to know you before you ever meet in person. Power of personal brand. I’ve been preaching this for over a decade as

you guys have been too. Which we’re going to talk a little bit about today. But we’re going to talk about that and so much more. So I have so many things that I would like to talk about, but since we only have roughly 45 to 50 minutes. We’ll do a follow up over cocktails.

IPBP 607 YouTube Jessica (01:02)
you guys have been to. Which we’re going to talk a little bit about today. But we’re going to talk about that and so much more. So I have so many things that I would like to talk about, but since we only have roughly 45 to 15 minutes. We’ll do a follow up over our skills.

This is part one, episode part one. But here’s the first question. I told you that we had an event last week with a lot of our community at Brain Builders Group here in Nashville. And there was this circulating conversation that came up over the two days. And I thought it was really serendipitous that

Rory & AJ Vaden (01:16)
Here’s part one, episode part one. ⁓ Here’s the first question. I told you that we had an event last week with a lot of our community at Brain Builders Group here in Nashville. And there was this circulating conversation that came up over the two days. And I thought it was really serendipitous that

IPBP 607 YouTube Jessica (01:32)
I knew we were having this conversation today and I thought if that

Rory & AJ Vaden (01:32)
I knew we were having this conversation today. And I thought if that…

IPBP 607 YouTube Jessica (01:35)
many people had the conversation in our room How many more people want to have this conversation or want to hear thoughts on this? So that’s where we’re gonna start today. Are you ready? I’m ready. Okay You have founded and exited businesses. You’ve written best-selling books. You have built a top podcast You have an amazing amazing coaching practice There’s a lot of things going on in that and none of that happened overnight. I know that but what

Rory & AJ Vaden (01:36)
had the conversation in our room, how many more people want to have this conversation or want to hear thoughts on this? So that’s where we’re going to start today. Are you ready? I’m ready. Okay. You have founded and exited businesses. You’ve written bestselling books. You have built a top podcast. You have an amazing, amazing coaching practice. There’s a lot of things going on in that and none of that happened overnight. I know that.

What do

IPBP 607 YouTube Jessica (02:02)
Do you think that people truly misunderstand about what it takes to build a personal brand that lasts? Oh girl, what a good one. think a few things. I think that first it starts with, you know, it’s scary to put yourself out there. I think that everyone is afraid to some degree, whether they have alchemized it and healed it over time or don’t want to

Rory & AJ Vaden (02:02)
you think that people truly misunderstand about what it takes to build a personal brand that lasts? ⁓ girl, what a good one. I think a few things. I think that first it starts with, you know, it’s scary to put yourself out there. I think that everyone is afraid to some degree, whether they have alchemized it and healed it over time or don’t want to.

are afraid of what people might think of me. Because I think being a

IPBP 607 YouTube Jessica (02:26)
admit it, are afraid of what people might think of them. Because I think being a

brand yourself, calling yourself the brand can come off in the wrong way, like an ego play, like that you’re all about yourself or that you are, you know, putting yourself out there in a way that is only serving you. And I think we really have to one move through that fear and start to trust ourselves that what we have to give in the world matters

Rory & AJ Vaden (02:32)
brand yourself, calling yourself a brand, can come off in the wrong way, like an ego play. Like that you’re all about yourself or that you are putting yourself out there in a way that is only serving you. And I think we really have to one, move through that fear and start to trust ourselves that what we have to give in the world matters.

who we are, the world wouldn’t be the same without our

IPBP 607 YouTube Jessica (02:56)
who we are. The world wouldn’t be the same without our

Rory & AJ Vaden (03:01)
gifts and we would be doing the world a disservice if we don’t show up in our gifts and that is that’s easier said than done. That takes some radical inner work. I often say and I think we have the same ethos that building a personal brand is actually an inside job first before it becomes an external platform and that’s not always the the walk that people want to walk.

IPBP 607 YouTube Jessica (03:01)
gifts and we would be doing the world a disservice if we don’t show up in our gifts. And that is that’s easier said than done. That takes some radical inner work. I often say, I think we have the same ethos that building a personal brand is actually an inside job first before it becomes an external platform. And that’s not always the walk that people want to walk

because you have to sort of face your own shadows and you have to face your own trauma and you have to face your own bullshit to be honest. And I think

Rory & AJ Vaden (03:23)
you have to sort of face your own shadows and you have to face your own trauma and you have to face your own bullshit to be honest and I think

when you can touch into that radical self-belief and start to put one foot in front of the other every single day because here’s the truth not everybody’s going to get you or like you or refer you or share your content but the more you are you the more you magnetize your right people and that becomes a daily confirmation that you’re onto something.

IPBP 607 YouTube Jessica (03:31)
when you can touch into that radical self-belief and start to put one foot in front of the other every single day, because here’s the truth, not everybody’s gonna get you or like you or refer you or share your content, but the more you are you, the more you magnetize your right people and that becomes a daily confirmation that you’re onto something.

And I think it’s moving through that fear in the very beginning that helps to sustain and power the compound growth of what becomes a platform of meaning over time.

Rory & AJ Vaden (03:52)
And I think it’s moving through that fear in the very beginning that helps to sustain and power the compound growth of what becomes a platform of meaning over time.

IPBP 607 YouTube Jessica (04:01)
And really digging in and I know that I know your philosophy. I’ve studied BBG for a long time You guys are amazing. You really talk about being of service Like what you have to give to the world and if you come from that orientation You’re never gonna come off egotistical and people think that who cares.

Rory & AJ Vaden (04:02)
And really digging in, and I know your philosophy, I’ve studied BBG for a long time, you guys are amazing, you really talk about being of service. Like what you have to give to the world, and if you come from that orientation, you’re never gonna come off egotistical. And if people think that, who cares?

IPBP 607 YouTube Jessica (04:20)
I also think that you have to really ⁓ understand that the Market wants to see the authentic you and that you have to be willing to be out loud with your own journey

Rory & AJ Vaden (04:20)
I also think that you have to really ⁓ understand that the market wants to see the authentic you and that you have to be willing to be out loud with your own journey.

A brand, a personal brand is not meant to be stagnant. We’re not Starbucks coffee or Hyatt hotels or BMW cars. We’re human beings in a constant state of evolution.

IPBP 607 YouTube Jessica (04:31)
A brand, personal brand, is not meant to be stagnant. We’re not Starbucks coffee or Hyatt hotels or BMW cars. We’re human beings in a constant state of evolution.

And so the more that you can show up in that evolution out loud with strategy, of course, and with clarity, the more your audience is going to trust you and go on that journey with you. So to answer your question, I think that it’s… I often say that personal branding is personal development disguised, you know? As marketing self-discovery. Self-discovery and personal.

Rory & AJ Vaden (04:43)
And so the more that you can show up in that evolution out loud with strategy, of course, and with clarity, the more your audience is going to trust you and go on that journey with you. So to answer your question, think that it’s, I often say that personal branding is personal development disguise, you know, as marketing, self discovery, self discovery and personal

IPBP 607 YouTube Jessica (05:01)
empowerment and I think if you can really click into that and hit that it becomes the biggest high for lack of better word because then they are helping

Rory & AJ Vaden (05:01)
empowerment. And I think if you can really click into that and hit that, it becomes the biggest high for lack of better word, because the end of the day, you’re helping.

IPBP 607 YouTube Jessica (05:10)
people.

And there’s no better feeling in the human experience than helping people. Well, I cannot agree more. And one of the things that we say, one of our mantras at BBG is that if you’re afraid of somehow coming off as prideful or egotistical, then you’re worried too much about yourself. Amen. Right. And yet it’s still one of the number one people. It’s one of the number one things people struggle with. And so you mentioned, you’ve got to do some of that inner work. You’ve got to face that fear on the front end. You talk a lot about that. You do a lot.

Rory & AJ Vaden (05:12)
And there’s no better feeling in the human experience than healthy people. Well, I cannot agree more. And one of the things that we say, one of our mantras at BBG is that if you’re afraid of somehow coming off as prideful or egotistical, then you’re worried too much about yourself. Amen. Right? And yet, it’s still one of the number one people, it’s one of number one things people struggle with. And so you mentioned, I you’ve got to do some of that inner work. You’ve got to face that fear on the front end.

You talk a lot about that. You do a lot of

that. What are some of the things that people can start doing? If they’re sitting there listening today going, yeah, I do struggle with that. And I’m afraid to tell people what I’m doing because I don’t want to be judged or I don’t want them to think I’m just bragging about myself and all these things I’m doing. What’s the one, couple, two, three, how many ever you got? What are the inner things that we need to be working on? I think, you know, if I may, I want to share a story.

IPBP 607 YouTube Jessica (05:41)
that, what are some of the things that people can start doing? If they’re sitting there listening today going, yeah, I do struggle with that and I’m afraid to tell people what I’m doing because I don’t want to be judged or I don’t want them to think I’m just bragging about myself and all these things I’m doing. What’s the one, couple, two, three, how many ever you got? What are the inner things that we need to be working on? I think, you know, if I may, I want to share a story.

I’m a serial entrepreneur. ⁓

Rory & AJ Vaden (06:10)
I’m a serial entrepreneur. like

IPBP 607 YouTube Jessica (06:11)
I’d like to say that I scaled and failed my first business. did. was critically successful, but financially not good. Scaled and exited my second. Now I’m scaling and sustaining my third. How is that? Scale and fail, scale and exit, scale and sustain. That’s my path. My very first business, I want to get to the question, I ran a very sparkly business in my late 20s, early 30s. It was an online

Rory & AJ Vaden (06:11)
to say that I scaled and failed my first business. did. It was critically successful, but financially not good. Scaled and exited my second. Now I’m scaling and sustaining my third. like that. Scale and fail, scale and exit, and sustain. That’s my path. My very first business, I want to get to the question, I ran a very sparkly business in my late 20s, early 30s. It was an online

IPBP 607 YouTube Jessica (06:39)
magazine for the millennial women.

Rory & AJ Vaden (06:39)
for the millennial women

IPBP 607 YouTube Jessica (06:41)
Chicago we were the go-to guide for restaurants and nightlife and arts and culture and fashion and beauty was amazing and I kind of Accidentally became like an eight girl in Chicago like I was always going out I was on the scene I was going to nightclubs I get into any restaurant I wanted like I thought I was I was a nerd in high school so like in my late 20s when I became all of a sudden quote-unquote cool like my ego was definitely taking that wheel and

Rory & AJ Vaden (06:41)
of Chicago. We were the go-to guide for restaurants and nightlife and arts and culture and fashion and beauty. It was amazing. And I kind of accidentally became like an it girl in Chicago. Like I was always going out. I was on the scene. I was going to the nightclubs. get into any restaurant I wanted. Like thought I was a nerd in high school. So like in my late 20s when it became all of sudden quote unquote cool, like my ego was definitely taking that wheel.

I felt, you know, in alignment, I guess, for a time until my life blew up. Like the business

IPBP 607 YouTube Jessica (07:05)
I felt You know in alignment I guess for a time until like my life blew up like the business

went bottom up broke, had a toxic relationship with my business partner, I started contracting an autoimmune disorder, like my life broke down internally

Rory & AJ Vaden (07:12)
bottom-up broke. I had a toxic relationship with my business partner. I started contracting an autoimmune disorder. Like my life broke down internally.

IPBP 607 YouTube Jessica (07:20)
and externally everyone thought I was this like sparkly co-founder of this women’s magazine. Long story short, I left the business, decided to start Simply Bee Agency, this little one woman consultancy that turned into my agency and I got asked to speak on a panel and there were four or five of us up there and I was burying myself out of credit card debt, okay?

Rory & AJ Vaden (07:20)
And externally, everyone thought I was this like sparkly co-founder of this women’s magazine. Long story short, I left the business, decided to start Simply Bee Agency, this little one woman consultancy that turned into my agency. And I got asked to speak on a panel and there were four or five of us up there. And I was burying myself out of credit card debt, okay?

While trying to figure out my next move. And I made the pretty bold move to share that with the whole room.

IPBP 607 YouTube Jessica (07:41)
while trying to figure out my next move. And I made the pretty bold move to share that with the whole room,

that I was coming out of that. It was like my very first moment of actually being authentic and telling the truth about what was really going on under the surface. And when that panel was done, AJ, there was a line of people around the room waiting to talk to me and nobody else on the panel.

Rory & AJ Vaden (07:51)
that I was coming out of that. was like my very first moment of actually being authentic and telling the truth about what was really going on under the surface. And when that panel was done, AJ, there was a line of people around the room waiting to talk to me and nobody else on the

because everyone felt seen.

IPBP 607 YouTube Jessica (08:11)
because everyone felt seen.

Rory & AJ Vaden (08:14)
Everyone felt like less alone. Everyone felt safer to share their truth with me. And I was a stranger. I gave them radical permission to own their own authenticity. And that was a huge unlock for me. It was sort of the catalyst to this whole concept around authentic personal branding. Like we can be the experts. We can stand out and be masterful in our gifts and use our platforms to make money. Of course, that’s what we do it for.

IPBP 607 YouTube Jessica (08:14)
Everyone felt like less alone. Everyone felt safer to share their truth with me. And I was a stranger. I gave them radical permission to own their own authenticity. And that was a huge unlock for me. It was sort of the catalyst to this whole concept around authentic personal branding. Like we can be the experts. We can stand out and be masterful in our gifts and use our platforms to make money. Of course, that’s what we do it for.

Rory & AJ Vaden (08:44)
but our

IPBP 607 YouTube Jessica (08:44)
authenticity, our truth, our shame, our failures don’t cancel out our greatness. They make us more magnetic because we’re real. And I think the more I’ve tested that theory over time and my whole like platform speaks to that vulnerability to this day like radical honesty. Not like sharing all of the crap that when I’m having a bad day or fighting with my husband or like but like the stuff that I’ve worked on

Rory & AJ Vaden (08:44)
authenticity, truth, our shame, our failures don’t cancel out our greatness. They make us more magnetic because we’re real. And I think the more I’ve tested that theory over time and my whole platform speaks to that vulnerability to this day, like radical honesty, not like sharing all of the crap that when I’m having a bad day or fighting with my husband or like, but like the stuff that I’ve worked on.

IPBP 607 YouTube Jessica (09:11)
and I’ve gleaned real wisdom on the other side of to

Rory & AJ Vaden (09:11)
I real wisdom on the other side of to

come out and share that kind of thing openly is magical. It’s what the world needs. And so I think my continual trusting, going back to that inner trust, has really impacted my external success and magnetized my right audience of women mainly who feel less crazy, feel less alone because I’m willing to go first. And we all should go first. We could heal the world if we went

IPBP 607 YouTube Jessica (09:14)
come out and share that kind of thing openly is magical. It’s what the world needs. And so I think my continual trusting, going back to that inner trust, has really impacted my external success and magnetized my right audience of women mainly who feel less crazy, feel less alone, because I’m willing to go first. And we all should go first. We could heal the world if we went

first. What I love about what I heard you say,

Rory & AJ Vaden (09:41)
You know what I love about what I heard you say

IPBP 607 YouTube Jessica (09:44)
is because I think a lot of people talk about authentic leadership, be authentic online, authentically you, there’s all these tag races, no one has really made it clear and I just something I just heard it just clicked for me literally for the first time of what authentic really means and you said telling the truth. Yes. That’s what it means to be authentic. Yes. It’s tell the truth. Right. Like the whole concept of be authentic it’s like yeah but how?

Rory & AJ Vaden (09:44)
is because I think a lot of people talk about authentic leadership be authentic online Authentically you look there’s all these tag races, but no one has really made it clear and I just something I just heard it just clicked for me literally for the first time of what authentic really means and you said telling the truth Yes, that’s what it means to be authentic. Yes, it’s tell the truth, right? Like the whole concept of be authentic. It’s like yeah, how

IPBP 607 YouTube Jessica (10:11)
But it’s tell the truth. Yes.

Rory & AJ Vaden (10:11)
But it’s tell the truth. Yes. And if I can

IPBP 607 YouTube Jessica (10:14)
can add one point to that. I think it’s telling the truth from a vibration. I’m very spiritual so you’ll hear me say words like that. From a vibration, a frequency of love, not fear. Like to not tell the truth to hurt somebody or make yourself look better or dump, but to tell the truth back to this word in service of somebody else’s awakening,

Rory & AJ Vaden (10:14)
add one thing to that, I think it’s telling the truth from a vibration. I’m very spiritual so you’ll hear me say words like that. From a vibration, a frequency of love, not fear. Like to not tell the truth to hurt somebody or make yourself look better or dump, but to tell the truth back to this word in service of somebody else’s awakening.

IPBP 607 YouTube Jessica (10:41)
aha moment.

Rory & AJ Vaden (10:43)
I think if

IPBP 607 YouTube Jessica (10:44)
we can really come back people feel that like if you’re there to show your behind the kimono not for your own indulgence but for someone else’s gain right not for the sake of over sharing exactly and that’s what you said dumb so here’s a follow-up question I have to this because it has in this concept of okay the authentic put it all out there tell the truth

Rory & AJ Vaden (10:44)
we can really come back, people feel that. Like if you’re there to show you’re behind the kimono, not for your own indulgence, but for someone else’s gain. Right, not for the sake of oversharing. exactly. And that’s what you said, dump. So here’s a follow-up question I have to this, because in this concept of, okay, be authentic, put it all out there, tell the truth.

IPBP 607 YouTube Jessica (11:08)
how much yeah what yeah when where yeah they should read my book be ⁓

Rory & AJ Vaden (11:08)
How much? What? When where? Yeah, they should read my book B. I’ll give them all the codes on how to

IPBP 607 YouTube Jessica (11:14)
to do that. I really believe that a couple things. One, your life does not belong in a glass case online. Like you can keep things private. You can be discretional. You can be intentional. Doesn’t make you any less authentic. I think that’s one. You and going back to what I said earlier, personal branding is an act of empowerment.

Rory & AJ Vaden (11:14)
do that. I really believe that a couple things. One, your life does not belong in a glass case online. Like you can keep things private. You can be discretional. You can be intentional. Doesn’t make you any less authentic. I think that’s one. You and going back to what I said earlier, personal branding is an act of empowerment.

IPBP 607 YouTube Jessica (11:34)
In many ways, like if you’re in alignment and you’re coming from love and you’re coming from truth and you’re coming from service, this is never going to feel manipulative. But you get to teach the market who you are.

Rory & AJ Vaden (11:34)
In many ways, like, and if you’re in alignment and you’re coming from love and you’re coming from truth and you’re coming from service, this is never going to feel manipulative, but you get to teach the market who you are. You

IPBP 607 YouTube Jessica (11:44)
You get to teach the market how to see you. You get to write your own narrative every single day based on what you say. You are who you say you are over and over and over again. To me, there’s nothing more empowering in life than that. However, you get to design what’s for people and what’s not for people. And

Rory & AJ Vaden (11:44)
get to teach the market how to see you. You get to write your own narrative every single day based on what you say. You are who you say you are over and over and over again. To me, there’s nothing more empowering in life than that. However, you get to design what’s for people and what’s not for people.

IPBP 607 YouTube Jessica (12:01)
I kind of have this framework in my book B called the personal brand hologram. I teach this in my school. I do this in all my private coaching to help craft a message because I believe that branding at its core is an exercise in clarity. ⁓

Rory & AJ Vaden (12:02)
kind of have this framework in my book B called the personal brand hologram. I teach this in my school, I do this in all my private coaching to help craft a message because I believe that branding at its core is an exercise in clarity. You

IPBP 607 YouTube Jessica (12:14)
have to really be known as the thing and felt as that thing within less than 15 seconds less actually now to someone who’s never heard of you to create that emotional response and we need clarity to do that but

Rory & AJ Vaden (12:14)
have to really be known as the thing and felt as that thing within less than 15 seconds less actually now to someone who’s never heard of you to create that emotional response and we need clarity to do that.

but we can’t sacrifice that. So how do we create that beautiful juxtaposition of this holistic message that encapsulates both your expertise and your humanity?

IPBP 607 YouTube Jessica (12:24)
we can’t sacrifice depth so how do we create that beautiful juxtaposition of this holistic message that encapsulates both your expertise and your humanity I also think the last thing I’ll add to that is you know I’ll tell you another quick story when I first got jumped on Facebook back in like 2008-910 whatever that was

Rory & AJ Vaden (12:35)
think the last thing I’ll add to that is you know I’ll tell you another quick story when I first got jumped on Facebook back in like 2008, 9, 10 whenever that was

I was going through this horrible breakup okay with this ex-boyfriend of mine and I was getting on Facebook at the time being like super passive aggressive and like sharing stuff that I knew he would see that he would you know be mad at her as we all have as we all have exactly and I remember somebody I really trusted pulled me aside and was like Jess

IPBP 607 YouTube Jessica (12:44)
I was going through this horrible breakup, okay, with this ex-boyfriend of mine. And I was getting on Facebook at the time being like super passive aggressive and like sharing stuff that I knew he would see that he would, you know, be mad at her. As we all have at some Exactly. And I remember somebody I really trusted pulled me aside and was like, Jess,

Rory & AJ Vaden (13:03)
The internet is not a place to process. That’s so good. You have your therapist for that. That’s so good. The internet is a place for you to show up once you’ve gone through that breakup,

IPBP 607 YouTube Jessica (13:04)
the internet is not a place to process. Mmm, that’s so good. I’m not your therapist for that. That’s so good. The internet is a place for you to show up once you’ve gone through that breakup.

healed, gathered new information for women who are going through a breakup too. But right now you’re making this one cathartic hot mess on the internet and no one cares. Yeah, it’s so good. It was brutally honest. was the best feedback I ever got. And I’m

Rory & AJ Vaden (13:14)
healed, grown, gathered new information for women who are going through a breakup too. But right now you’re making this one cathartic hot mess on the internet and no one cares. Yeah, that’s so good. It was brutally honest and it was the best feedback I ever got. ⁓

IPBP 607 YouTube Jessica (13:31)
like, okay, heard. When we show up in our whatever parts of the glass house we do want to share, let’s just make sure that it’s clean. That’s good. You know, that’s really, I think, a huge

Rory & AJ Vaden (13:35)
show up in our whatever parts of the glass house we do want to share let’s just make sure that it’s clean. That’s good. You know that’s that’s really I think a huge part

IPBP 607 YouTube Jessica (13:44)
part of that authentic Once you have gleaned the lesson and you’ve healed from the hurt, then it’s time to go back and share. Once you’re out of the pit, then you can go back and talk about everything, but not necessarily while you’re in it. I think

Rory & AJ Vaden (13:44)
of that. It’s like once you have gleaned the lesson and you’ve healed from the hurt then it’s time to go back and share right like once you’re out of the pit then you can go back and talk about everything but not necessarily while you’re in it.

IPBP 607 YouTube Jessica (14:02)
that’s a big reason why social media gets a bad rap, because we weaponize it. You can feel that. You can feel that frequency. I feel like it’s the people, the brands, many of the people that you and I know and are friends with that are

Rory & AJ Vaden (14:02)
That’s a big reason why social media gets a bad rap because we…

feel that. You can feel that frequency and I feel like it’s the people, the brands, many of the people that you and I know and are friends with that are

you know really doing well in the space come from that that place. Like they’re being authentic, they’re being honest, they’re sharing their stories but it’s not like for them or targeted. It’s for their community and it can still be raw and real as long as you’ve…

IPBP 607 YouTube Jessica (14:13)
you know, really doing well in the space come from that place. Like they’re being authentic, they’re being honest, they’re sharing their stories, but it’s not like for them or targeted. It’s for their community and it can still be raw and real as long as you’ve

not processed it in real time. Honestly, one of things I think is so important that I hope everyone heard what Jess just said around, you know, it’s like, and this is how I interpret it. It’s like social media.

Rory & AJ Vaden (14:34)
I honestly, one of the things I think is so important that I hope everyone heard what Jess just said around, you know, it’s like, and this is how I interpret it. like social media, like

everything else is a tool. It’s a tool to share. It’s a tool to be used and it can be weaponized, but it can just as much be used for good. It’s beautiful. I love social media. And I think everyone talks about the weaponization of it and the bad parts. And I’m like, that is true. Those are there. Let’s not pretend.

IPBP 607 YouTube Jessica (14:43)
else is a tool and a tool to share it’s a tool to be used and it can be weaponized but it can just as much be used for good. It’s beautiful I love social media and I think everyone talks about the weaponization of it and the bad parts and I’m like that is true those are there let’s not pretend

and and it can change your life. I do every single one of my Bible studies and my devotionals on social media every morning. I love that and it’s like it’s also sharing good exactly and there are amazing stories.

Rory & AJ Vaden (15:00)
And it can change your life. I do every single one of my Bible studies and my devotionals on social media every morning.

And it’s like, it’s also sharing good. Exactly. And there are amazing stories

and, and yes, there’s not so bad. And you get to curate your own feed and your own experience and who you let into your field. And you get to just, you have agency of how you show up. And if you can get like, I think that it’s actually the most fun place to be. I have made real relationships, deep friendships, real money, real impact, true community with Instagram. I love showing up there.

IPBP 607 YouTube Jessica (15:13)
And, and yes, there’s also bad. And you get to curate your own feed and your own experience and who you let into your field. And you get to, you have agency of how you show up. And if you can get like it, I think that it’s actually the most fun place to be. I have made real relationships, deep friendships, real money, real impact, true community with Instagram. I love showing up there

because it’s the energy that I bring to it. And that’s what I attract. And I, I tune out the noise. I, we all,

Rory & AJ Vaden (15:37)
because it’s the energy that I bring to it and that’s what I attract and I tune out the noise. We all,

IPBP 607 YouTube Jessica (15:43)
You know, I’ve coached a lot of people you do it’s like people struggle with social for so many reasons and if you can just really remember that it’s a tool for connection and show up as a human and remember that there are other human beings on the other side of their phone and every single thing you post and to not just add noise but to add value You’re gonna you’re gonna rise

Rory & AJ Vaden (15:43)
you know, I coach a lot of people who do, like people struggle with social for so many reasons. And if you can just really remember that it’s a tool for connection and show up as a human and remember that there are other human beings on the other side of their phone and every single thing you post and to not just add noise, but to add value, you’re gonna run.

You’re gonna stand out because it’s so low density at a lot of the time. So you get to be one of those people that

IPBP 607 YouTube Jessica (16:06)
you’re gonna stand out because it’s so low density at time a lot of the time so you get to be one of those people that

rises above. you look at it, if you really study the people that you admire, like pay attention to their energy. That’s right. And that’s what you should emulate. I just love the conversation of it’s a tool and it’ll be wielded in any way that you choose. Like any other tool, a hammer can be used to build a house or it could be used to murder someone. Yeah, exactly.

Rory & AJ Vaden (16:13)
rises above. you look at, you really study the people that you admire, like pay attention to their energy. That’s right. And that’s what you should emulate. I just love the conversation that it’s a tool and it’ll be wielded in any way that you choose like any other tool. A hammer can be used to build a house or it could be used to murder someone.

IPBP 607 YouTube Jessica (16:34)
Right? It’s like these tools aren’t inherently good or bad. It’s whatever energy we bring to it. That’s exactly right. Now you talk a lot about energy and frequency. I do.

Rory & AJ Vaden (16:34)
It’s like these tools aren’t inherently good or bad. It’s whatever energy we bring to it. right. Now you talk a lot about energy and frequency.

IPBP 607 YouTube Jessica (16:43)
And you mentioned earlier the spiritual part of your business and your brand and how you run the day to day. So that kind of leads me to my next question. You talk a lot about alignment

Rory & AJ Vaden (16:43)
And you mentioned earlier the spiritual part of your business and your brand and how you run the day to day. So that kind of leads me to my next question. You talk a lot about alignment.

IPBP 607 YouTube Jessica (16:53)
and energy and the energetic components of how to put business and life together. What does that look like in a day to day business? ⁓ well, let me take you back, okay, before I take you forward. ⁓ It wasn’t always like this. I feel very ⁓ proud of how my state’s energetically

Rory & AJ Vaden (16:55)
components of how to put business and life together. What does that look like in a day-to-day business? ⁓ well let me let me take you back okay before I take you forward today. It wasn’t always like this. I feel very proud of how I my state’s energetically

IPBP 607 YouTube Jessica (17:13)
every day, how I’m running my business. My nervous system is calibrated. I’m not in fight or flight anymore. I trust that the universe has my back. I’m in

Rory & AJ Vaden (17:13)
every day how I’m running my business. My nervous system is calibrated. I’m not in fight-or-flight anymore. I trust the universe has my back.

IPBP 607 YouTube Jessica (17:24)
a lot of financial abundance. I’m surrounded by beautiful people. I have the most amazing community in the space in my view. I know I’m biased, but I love my work. I would do it for free. That’s Everyone should just take a lesson in this positive self-talk that just happened here. If we’re not talking like that, check yourself. It’s been a journey to get here.

Rory & AJ Vaden (17:24)
financial abundance, I’m surrounded by beautiful people, I have the most amazing community in the space in my view, I’m not biased, but like I love my work, I would do it for free. That’s Everyone should just take a lesson and this positive self-talk that just happened here. Like if we’re not talking like that, check yourself. It’s been a journey to get here

IPBP 607 YouTube Jessica (17:43)
is my point. Like, so when I answer these questions of like the attunement of how I start my day, what does that look like? I need to really confess that it was

Rory & AJ Vaden (17:43)
is my point. Like so when I answer these questions of like the attunement of how I start my day, what does that look like? I need to really confess that it was…

IPBP 607 YouTube Jessica (17:53)
not like this for the majority of my career. I started my agency, Simply Bee, as a one-woman consultancy in 2017. I was making like panties, just testing the model. This was in 2016-17 AJ, so you understand, like personal branding at that time was sort of like,

Rory & AJ Vaden (17:53)
not like this from the majority of my career. I started my agency, Simply B, as a one woman consultancy in 2017. I was making like panties, just testing the model. This was in 2016, 17 AJ, so you understand like personal branding at that time was sort of like

IPBP 607 YouTube Jessica (18:13)
wild.

Ep 606: The Rise of Personal Brands in Direct Sales with Sarah Robbins

Rory & AJ Vaden (00:00)
Hey everybody and welcome to the influential personal brand podcast. I’m so excited to get to interview my good friend, Sarah Robbins today. Not only is Sarah a great friend, ⁓ but she is one bad mamma jamma when it comes to everything we’re going to talk about today. And this is one of those unique episodes that we’re really going in into a niche realm of where do we see a rise of the personal brand.

Sarah Robbins (00:15)
Thank

Rory & AJ Vaden (00:29)
in the direct sales space. But it’s not just for direct sales. It’s about leadership and recruiting and growing and scaling and building teams. But Sarah has this unbelievable origin story of how she went from kindergarten teacher to billion, multi-billion dollar network marketing legend. That’s not her words, those are my words. Legendary.

And I think it’s a really important thing to go at, hey, in a market, in an economy where there’s so much change happening with AI and technology, and then we see some industries literally changing, some crumbling, some rising, but change rampant. Direct sales is one of those industries that we have seen this enormous change, and Sarah herself has seen an enormous change of what that looked like for her a year ago to what that looks like.

today and this interview is for anyone who’s going, well, what have I really built my reputation on? What have I built my personal brand on and is that going to get me to where I want to be? And this interview is on the precipice of her very first book launch. So we’re going to also get to talk about her awesome new book, The Multiply Method. There are so many other things that I could say, but this is an interview that is worth the listen. So stay tuned in all the way to the very end and then you guys can catch my recap.

So Sarah, are you ready to dig in? This is gonna be awesome. Okay, so I want to start with this kind of very little preview of what I gave everyone when I said from kindergarten teacher to multi-million dollar direct sales leader. Like come again what? Like tell us about that. Like where did you start? Where was it? How did this happen? Over how long? But we need to know all the details.

Sarah Robbins (01:54)
go! ⁓

Well, first of all, thank you for having me. You are so incredible and I cannot wait for this time together. My story really starts from humble beginnings. I was a kindergarten teacher in Michigan back in the recession of 08. We all know what was happening during the recession, but most particularly Michigan, the automotive industry. lived in Motown, Motor City, Metro Detroit.

And although I was the most requested teacher in the building, teacher tenure trumped performance. So I was in a place where I kept hearing, you could lose your job. You’re the low man on the totem pole. And I kept thinking we really need my income. So I had to look for additional streams of income. And my search led me to my company. Now I will say this, my company that I was with for 18 years,

was not in direct sales when it started. It was first a retail brand. And my mom was freelancing for them doing events. It was a skincare company. And she said, I can get you a job making $20 an hour. So I was the girl that passed out the samples. And so I have compassion on the ladies when they’re passing out the samples. I was making 20 bucks an hour. I was in the right place in God’s time. We’ll one day, letting us know good news and bad news.

The bad news was we were going to lose that job, the freelancing job. But the good news was they had another opportunity for us. They were going to leave retail, go into direct sales, and did we want to do it? And I will be honest, I knew nothing about direct sales except for the fact that I would never do it. I had no network. I was shy. I was young. I was broke. I had no experience in sales, but my mother

was a savvy, successful serial entrepreneur. She did everything she could to be at home and raise her three girls. I remember growing up in an in-home daycare. So she would do real estate. She had other direct sales ventures. And she said, Sarah, you know, I know people who have become really successful doing businesses like these. We would be crazy not to do it. So I’m the first born kid, which means I’m the compliant child. Thank goodness I listened to my mom and I started the business.

very part-time alongside of my full-time job. And eventually that school year, we ended up replacing our teaching income. And I will say one year, yes. And keep in mind, her and I didn’t have mentors. We didn’t have training in the company at the time. We were the first two. We didn’t even have a compensation plan. We didn’t know how we were going to get paid. But I will tell you, I became a student of our profession. I started buying the books, going to the events.

Rory & AJ Vaden (04:45)
with a new year.

Sarah Robbins (05:04)
Again, when we had nobody else to follow. Then fast forward, I recruit, you know, my first kind of like crop of leaders and I start creating a sales team. ⁓ and it was interesting. I put in my leave of absence with teaching because I was too scared to walk away and I just never went back. I feel like I still owe somebody an explanation. Like, I’m so sorry. Like I should probably write that letter letter someday, but

Rory & AJ Vaden (05:06)
Thanks.

Thanks

Sarah Robbins (05:28)
We went on in under five years to build that team to over a billion dollars in sales. So arguably the most successful sales team in the history of our industry. And we changed millions of lives. have hundreds of thousands of people on our team, millions of customers. And it truly was incredible what we were able to accomplish in one company over 18 years of time.

Rory & AJ Vaden (05:57)
So I want to pause right there for a second. First of all, that’s a good lesson and never say never. That’s right. Never say never. ⁓ but also like, what do you think it was from you going, okay, I’m a teacher, no sales experience to all right, I can do this. I am doing this. wow. I’m doing really good at this. Like, I think there’s so many of us who first we never make the leap. We just don’t have enough belief in our sales and ourselves to take the risk.

or we give ourselves the excuse, don’t know how, so we don’t learn. I think there’s a lot of things. So what was it in you? Like what was that difference? Because I know you’ve also worked with tens of thousands of people over the years. You’ve got to have seen some trends on this is how I know this person’s gonna make it.

Sarah Robbins (06:46)
Yeah, it was the power of decision for me. And I remember a distinct day, I was actually in my car waiting in the parking lot for Bible study. And my mom’s friend who was a leader on her team called me, her name is Rochelle. And she said, and at the time I was really struggling in my business. And she said, Sarah, do you want to know what is going to help to get you unstuck? And I’m like, yes. Like, and I think she’s, she’s going to give me like some magic system, secret sauce, whatever.

And she’s like, you are showing up to everything. I would go to every meeting, every call, every event. She said, you are doing one thing, but you are saying another. would say things like, nobody’s joining me. Everybody’s quitting my team. And she said, you have to decide. You have to make a decision. And in that moment, I was like, I will be successful and do whatever it takes. And at the time, people would refer to me as Chris’s daughter, Chris is my mom.

And, you I was young and I’m kind of just learning the ropes from her. And I thought, you know what? I’m going to lead a team. I’m going to start stepping into my leadership, even when, you know, I don’t have a big team of people to follow me. And I really started to invest in my personal and professional growth. mean, I remember literally that year I went into a deep dive for one year studying the power of my words. And I thought at of the day, if nothing happens in this business.

Rory & AJ Vaden (08:11)
Mm.

Sarah Robbins (08:16)
I will be a better wife. At the time I didn’t have kids. have two beautiful boys now, but someday I will be a better mother. I’m going to be a better friend. So I invested as much into the business as I did myself, but it was a decision.

Rory & AJ Vaden (08:29)
That’s good. I love that. And I also have to tell you this for everyone who’s listening. I love that you said that for the longest time you were Chris’s daughter. And for everyone listening, I randomly ran into an old friend of mine who happened to be with Sarah’s mom that I didn’t know. And then I got to be like, you’re Sarah’s mom, right? Full circle, full circle.

Sarah Robbins (08:52)
See ya! ⁓

Rory & AJ Vaden (08:55)
Because now it’s, it was such a sweet serendipitous moment too, but you have gone from Chris’s daughter to now she is Sarah’s mom. So I love that. But I love that. It’s like, it’s invest in yourself and to make the decision. And then a little bit of no excuses. It’s like between books and coaches and classes and conferences and now podcasts and TikTok and social media and blogs. It’s like,

Sarah Robbins (09:03)
Yeah. See you guys in a beautiful mom.

Yes.

Rory & AJ Vaden (09:22)
The information is there. Whether or not we choose to find it, use it, act on it, that’s up to us. But the information is there. Now, so for 18 years, you were building this billion dollar business, had a whole bunch of team, making a whole bunch of money. What happened a year ago?

Sarah Robbins (09:43)
Well, from billions to blank slate, I got a call on July 15th, one year ago, and it was a surprise leadership call. And we didn’t have surprise leadership calls. And I was shocked because we had just gotten back from a company trip. Our team at the time was still doing over $1.6 billion in sales in a year. And it was an attorney on the screen letting us know that the model as we knew

would be no longer, that we would be losing for us personally 99.9 % of our income. And that would be gone. Our entire sales team that we had built over 18 years, it would be gone in 60 days. 60 days. And I just remember, first of all, a couple of things. You and I had been in a mastermind and we were at a retreat together and you sharing your story of just redemption. And that gave me hope.

And another thing that gave me hope was six months prior to that happening. And I don’t get to share the story often, but I was in a church meeting and my pastor’s mentor called me out of a crowd. He does not know me. And he said, girl in the sparkly shoes, he said, a great betrayal is coming to you and God is going to heal it. The thing you thought would be forever. God is going to change the trajectory.

Now you can imagine I was scared. I’m like, who’s going to betray me? What was the thing I thought was going to be forever? He said, but you have not done anything wrong. Nothing is out of order and nothing is out of place. He said, suddenly people will come to you and say, what will it take for you to sell this or do this? And he said, in 18 months, it will make up for the past three years. I got that phone call and keep in mind, I forgot about that word. I recorded it in my phone, but it was so obscure.

At the time it was scary. So I was like, I actually don’t ever want to listen to this again. And I laid down and I heard, be reminded of that word. And so I remembered that it was literally six months to the day. And I opened it up and I listened to it and I start to weep. And I thought, you know what? I will not get caught up into unforgiveness or betrayal. And I literally started getting on the phone. And of course it’s like, what do we do in those moments? I’m like,

we got to think of some next steps. So I started to call some friends in the industry, some mentors, and they’re like, Sarah, what do you want to do? Because we had done really well in that past season. Do you want to do more of your coaching? Do you want to do corporate? I was like, no thanks. No thanks. Do you want to start your own company? I’m like, man, that sounds like a lot of work. I got two businesses, two babies. And it took me two seconds to say, I want to do this again.

Rory & AJ Vaden (12:34)
Mm.

Sarah Robbins (12:34)
And so I really started with two things. It was forgiveness. And you could see all the way back to July 15th from public social media posts to private conversations was I have honored everything and everyone in that past season because it set us up to where we are today. And then the next thing was faith was, you know, just believing that everything we lost would be restored. Even our joy.

And having friends like you, having a lot of other entrepreneurial friends that had walked through hard things, stories of loss, which you share about in your book. And I have seen them come out stronger on the other side. And that, for me, was enough to give me that hope and that inspiration that I needed to really see me through in that season.

Rory & AJ Vaden (13:22)
Yeah, and I, you know, I got to walk with you through this season and, know, I think this is just for everyone who’s listening, whether you’re in this season where you feel like everything that you thought you knew is changing or it’s gone. ⁓ I know that there’s layoffs happening all over the country. There’s just, there’s changes. Maybe it’s in your personal life, your professional life. Maybe you’ve had that before, or maybe it’s going to happen to you in the future. I think that there’s just so many stories. If you just look for them of how the change.

that was the most painful, the most unexpected, was for the best. It was for the best. And it’s something that you probably would have never done proactively. I probably wouldn’t have done mine proactively, but it’s not even forgiveness, it’s gratefulness. It’s like, thank you, because I’m in this new life, I’m in this new season, I’m on this new trajectory that I likely would have never been on if that hadn’t have been for this thing. And so…

Sarah Robbins (14:05)
Yeah. Yeah.

Rory & AJ Vaden (14:17)
for everyone who’s listening, just encourage that the pains that you go through prepare you for the purpose that’s ahead. you know, Sarah, this is such a great story of everything that you walk through and yes, could it have been a coincidence? Could it have been luck? Could you have just been the right person in the right time 18 years ago? Maybe, but maybe not, right? And I think this is a great story of also going like, if you did it once, you can do it again.

Sarah Robbins (14:38)
Yeah.

Rory & AJ Vaden (14:45)
and we all have a chance to rebuild and it’s an attitude and a decision, as you said earlier, to go, what are we gonna do? I don’t think that you’re just a lucky person in the right seat. I think it was divinely orchestrated to get you to where you are. And a part of where you are is succeeding in this new season and doing it again. And so I wanna know, in this new season, right? Working with a new company, rebuilding,

It’s not easy. Let’s don’t sugarcoat it. That ain’t easy. It’s a lot of long hour days. ⁓ There’s a lot to it. In the middle of all that, you’ve also made this decision of going, okay, I’m not only gonna just rebuild my business, rebuild my team, I’m starting literally over from scratch, but I’m also gonna write a book. Why? Why now? Why this book? Why now?

Sarah Robbins (15:22)
Yeah.

Well, to tell you the truth, you know, because you had watched me prior to losing everything and I started to talk about and it was always a dream of mine to write like a real business book, the one that you see on a shelf in the Barnes and Noble and it’s like all of the years of wisdom, experience and stories. And to be honest, in the backdrop, I was like, okay, the book is written. I know what to do. I’ve already got everything ready, everything set. And then comes the news and you know,

What you said is true. What was going through my head was, I’m not starting from scratch. Yes, I have to build brand new customer by customer, but I’m starting with wisdom and experience and systems. And so the interesting thing and the really neat thing was a lot of times when we read a book, comes from years of experience. So wisdom, which is so helpful, but it’s like, what if we can combine that with building in the trenches too?

Rory & AJ Vaden (16:23)
That’s good.

Sarah Robbins (16:39)
And so what I did was I’m like back to the manuscript, back to the pages. And it actually put all of my systems to the pressure cooker and they performed. We started building faster than the first time, but the really neat thing was this. It caused me to really comb through everything I did then. What I was doing today to say, what is timeless and true in our industry? What will always work?

building relationships, follow-up, et cetera. But with technology and social media, how are things evolving? How are things changing? Like a good example, our profession has been around for over 100 years. Used to be the Avon ladies, right? They would sell products door to door. And so I was able to look and say, what is working right now? So it’s a really unique perspective of, here I am actually building. I’m in the trenches doing the thing. I know what I’m doing.

Rory & AJ Vaden (17:28)
Yeah.

Sarah Robbins (17:36)
But starting over again, will tell you, I’ve always had a spirit of excellence in everything that I’ve done. I mean, up until the final day of leading that business, I was still doing weekly sales calls to serve my team. But when you start over, and I know you know this, there is a level of excellence, another layer that you have to rise to, because there’s this urgency of not only having to meet a need, like your actual needs, but also

for the people that you serve as well. So for example, when we were doing events now in this new company, again, I was doing those until the final day every week for 18 years. But now I was going, okay, we’re gonna create like this whole invitation suite. We’re gonna give them the graphics, give them the language, give them the email blast, like everything they need so we can multiply. You always say? What you simplify, you multiply. Like we made our system so simple for our team.

Rory & AJ Vaden (18:08)
Hmm.

Sarah Robbins (18:34)
And that was the greatest thing. It’s like, here we are building and alongside sharing these best practices and a book. And that’s kind of how the multiply method came to be.

Rory & AJ Vaden (18:46)
Yeah, so that’s the title of the new book, The Multiply Method. And I love that little phrase, like when you simplify, you multiply. Because if it’s too complex, we just can’t remember it. If it’s too complicated, you can’t do it. And the simpler it is, the better. But as humans, we try to overcomplicate things. So in your words, what would you say is if you had to like sum up the book in a sentence, who’s the book for and what it’s about?

Sarah Robbins (19:14)
This book, The Multiply Method is for social sellers. So direct sellers, if you sell anything, affiliate marketing, network marketing, direct sales, it’s for you, anybody, any company, any level, it’s going to help you level up. And here’s the thing, as a former kindergarten teacher, the thing that I love the most is taking complex topics like social media, sales, and simplifying them and creating simple systems. So these are simple systems.

words that work, little frameworks for every single element of the business, like prospecting, which is the art of inviting. How do I talk to people about what I do? Presenting, how do I share it powerfully, professionally in every setting? Closing, so we all need to know how do we close more sales? Customer acquisition and retention for sales that multiply and even how to sell on social media without constantly selling or sliding in the DMs and you’re bugging your best friend.

And so that’s really what it is all about is it’s creating simple systems to help people who are leading a sales team or of course looking to grow sales themselves.

Rory & AJ Vaden (20:22)
I love that. And I love the avatar too of social sellers. Right. And so what I’d like to do is just spend a few minutes. I’m watching the clock. I know we have a limit here because this could easily take a long time because I kind of picked a few topics out of the different pillars and chapters of the book, but I thought would be really value written for everyone who’s listening. Because again, we all are in the business of client acquisition, client retention, talent acquisition, or talent retention. So some of these, I even think really apply to

Sarah Robbins (20:25)
Yes.

Rory & AJ Vaden (20:52)
like recruiting and maintaining like sales of sales, right? It doesn’t matter if it’s a client or a recruit. So first thing, let’s start with prospecting. One of the things that I love that you say is that conversations are the new presentations. What does that look like in real time?

Sarah Robbins (21:07)
Yeah.

Yeah. So I love like, it’s like when I’m trying to strike up a conversation with people, the number one mistake that I see people make, and we’ve seen it before, it’s happened to all of us. Someone slides in the DM and they start selling you something. And it’s like, I’m sorry, who are you? And what are you doing here? Right? It’s like social media is a social platform. And I got to flip the script. Let’s prioritize people over profit relationship over revenue. So what I teach is a simple framework.

Rory & AJ Vaden (21:26)
Yeah.

Mmm, that’s good.

Sarah Robbins (21:39)
Compliment, conversation, connection. So let’s say you and I hadn’t talked for a while, AJ, and I wanted to share my business with you. I’d first go to your feed and find out what’s new and exciting with you, something that I could compliment you on or congratulate you on. And I would say the obvious. would say, AJ, I know it’s been a while. Your post popped up in my feed. Congratulations on becoming a New York Times bestseller. And really, congratulations. I mean, that’s so awesome. And then I would ask, how have you guys been? Tell me more about the book. How do you get into conversation?

Rory & AJ Vaden (22:03)
Thank

Yeah. Good.

Sarah Robbins (22:09)
You ask questions.

And then when the time is right, we make that connection. Hey, where are you guys living now? Oh, you’re here. Okay, wonderful. I have a business that’s expanding there. I would love to follow up, kind of get in touch. Could I meet you and treat you to coffee or a little virtual coffee? And again, when we prioritize that relationship, not only are we the person that people want to do business with,

but we’re the person that people want to refer people onto as well. So always prioritize that relationship first.

Rory & AJ Vaden (22:42)
Hey, that’s good, y’all. Everyone should write this down to remind yourself that social media is a social platform. And I love that. And I love the simplicity, of you just compliment, start a conversation, then make a connection. It’s back to the simplicity of it. And I think that for a lot of us, we just overthink sales, and then it becomes too salesy. It’s like this whole concept of conversations or the new presentations is brilliant, because that’s how it should have always been.

Sarah Robbins (22:55)
less.

Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Rory & AJ Vaden (23:11)
Nobody has ever become a successful salesperson in a monologue. Always been the best salespeople have a dialogue. They ask questions, then they get responses and they use that versus I ask a few questions and then I go into a 30 minute presentation. And so this is just putting that back into these new micro opportunities with social media and text messages and all the different platforms that we’re having. So I love that.

Sarah Robbins (23:16)
True.

Rory & AJ Vaden (23:39)
Right? conversations are the new presentations. And don’t forget that social media is a social platform. That’s simplifying prospecting just a little bit. We love that. Y’all, let me go ahead and just plug this. Like if you’re already going, ⁓ yeah, I need more of that. Let me just encourage you right now to go get the book, The Multiply Method. And you can go to themultiplymethod.com. Right?

easy breezy, right? Themultiplymethod.com. You can get the book. I would say at the time of this recording, it’s pre-order, but by the time this goes live, you’ll be able to get the book immediately within 24 hours. So get a copy of the book. There’s some awesome bonuses that come along with it. So please check out the book. We’re going to talk about more of the book content, and I’ll remind you of this in just a few minutes. if already you’re going, just the simplicity of reframing how I think about selling and presentations.

TheMultiplyMethod.com. That’s where you get to pick up the book, right? Okay. Next one I picked out was around overcoming objections and closing. Okay. So what advice would you give to someone who feels discouraged or stuck when it comes to making the ask? Because I feel like a lot of people, they’ll do a really good job at asking some questions. They have great benefit written quote unquote presentations. And then they just never ask.

Sarah Robbins (24:44)
Yes.

Yeah, I always say you have to get your ask ASK in gear and you have not if you ask not. So usually what I say, you know, when I close, I always say recommendation, validation and role. So that’s kind of like a simple way to sell is I’ll ask again, let’s say that you reach out to me and say, Sarah, I want to try your skin care. I would say, great. If you could change one thing about your skin, what would it be and why change one thing about your blank? What would it be and why? And I would say, here’s what I recommend to you. I recommend this regimen.

Then validation, I’m going to send you some before and after pictures, a story. Success in selling is not about selling, it’s storytelling. It could be a before and after, maybe you’re in internet marketing, it could be a testimonial, et cetera. And it’s enough to just say, they love it, you’re going to love it. And then we’re going to ask. I love to lead with an offer or a guarantee because that kind of creates urgency. And then I ask, would you like to give it a try? And by the way, that subtle sell, it feels good to ask that way. But when we end with a question,

People actually have to respond. And here’s the thing, I always prep people for with objections. Sometimes we hear no. And no is not a four-letter word. The way that we respond to no, I always say respond with two words and a phrase. Two words and a phrase. So when somebody says no, I say, no problem. I’d love to put you on my VIP list for future offers and events. I add them to my email follow-up, my text follow-up.

So if I have an event or an offer that I can invite them to, we know with sales, it’s very rare that we actually close people on the first exposure. So if I have an event or if I have an offer, I can reach back out and say, AJ, earlier you expressed interest, here’s this great thing we have or this great event we have going on. Would you like to be my guest or would you like to take another look? And again, the fortune is in the follow-up.

Rory & AJ Vaden (26:54)
Yeah, I love that. And you’re so right. The fortune is in the follow up, you know, back to like the best sales people are great storytellers. I cannot tell you how many stories story after story after story after story of people who have come to be clients at brand builders group have been following us for years. Years. Right? This was not a first interaction close. They heard a podcast, requested a call and bought on the spot. It’s

No, they heard us on a podcast, started following it on social media, maybe heard us on another podcast. I see they have a book coming out, got the free audio book. And it’s like, there have been several touch points. And I can’t tell you how many people have also, I’ve just encountered at our events who’ve also said, you know, I did my first sales call five years ago. I’m like, five years ago, what took you so long? And they’re like, well, in that season, it just, wasn’t a right fit, but I liked.

I liked what you guys were about. liked what you were doing. I just knew that I didn’t have the time for it, but you guys stayed in touch and I stayed in touch and here I am five years later. And I think that’s a great reminder that the fortune is in the followup. And also it’s a reframe too of, you one of the things that I used to tell all of our sales team at our former company, which I remind our team now today too, but it’s like, you have to make the decision that you never hear no, you only hear not right now.

Sarah Robbins (28:17)
Yes.

Rory & AJ Vaden (28:18)
Right? it’s, that’s just a mindset reframe of it’s not a no, it’s just a not right now.

Sarah Robbins (28:23)
Yeah. Yeah. And can I just

say something was I followed you both for 18, 15 to 18 years. I had first heard about the two of you when I was in my first company. And I think y’all had spoken at an event in Tennessee. So I knew who you were. I started following your stuff. So here I am 15 years later as a client of yours. So again, I love that quote. It’s like,

timing perseverance, 10 years of trying, you eventually look like an overnight success. It’s like, we are in a relationship business. And, know, again, I followed all of the content that you were giving for free, all of the podcasts, and I did all of their learning. And then it’s like, boom, when the time is right. So it’s exactly what you said. It’s no, not now. Why? Because the timing has to be right for the other person too.

Rory & AJ Vaden (28:54)
Thanks

Right. Like what you said, like this, we’re in the relationship business. Guess what? Relationships take time. Like relationships take time. Most of us would not go on a first date and make a proposal to get married on a first date, right? It requires time and investment and questioning and curiosity. And there’s like this, this courting phase that happens that I even find with consumers and businesses. It’s like, even when I’m going to the mall, I’ll browse.

several stores before I go back to the store that I want to buy something from. It’s like, want to see what my options are, see what I like, who I like. And it’s really not all that different, even if we’re in a direct sales or professional selling environment. A lot of it is the same. And I think that’s a really important reminder that the fortune’s in the follow-up. Because a huge part of being successful in sales is just being the most persistent and the last one to stay in touch. Because most people give up.

I love that and I love that. It’s like success in sales is not about selling. It’s about storytelling. And that’s another reframe in general around how can you become a great storyteller. I saw something on Instagram the other day that said ⁓ presentation skills are a leadership requirement. And it made me think about the best leaders are also great storytellers. Same with sales. The best salespeople are great storytellers because people remember stories.

not facts and benefits. They remember stories. They’ll love that. Okay, next one. I have so many to talk about. ⁓ Okay, this is the next one. What, in your opinion, on the leadership side, talking about leadership, what makes a team duplicatable, right? So what have you seen works really, really well and what should you stay far, far away from?

Sarah Robbins (31:05)
Leadership is not about being the smartest in the room, having the fanciest of funnels in our business. We’re a business of duplication. So I actually, instead of looking at what can I do, right? Because I have the means to invest in things and to hire out, to have people do all, like if I wanted to do all the fancy funnels, but instead I think it’s not just what I do, is will it.

duplicate. So I have to boil down every single element of the business in a way that it becomes so simple that the everyday, that the average person, that the part-time person could do it. And so there are things that I could do, but I don’t do because I realize that I’m going to slow things down for my team. You know, it’s interesting. You said too many people kind of focus on sales.

Even at my business with product, many people focus on science. And I’m like, here’s the thing that it’s doing right now. It is slowing down your sales, but it’s also slowing down your sales team. So if we want to create an environment where our sales and our sales team, it grows month over month, or in our industry, people have to say, lead a sales team into momentum. There is no way that I can find millions of customers myself. I had millions of customers in our previous business, not me.

But our team, momentum is created by empowering a lot of people to do a little bit more. And how do you do that? By creating really simple systems. Again, it goes back to that idea of what we simplify, we multiply. Sometimes when people like they’re in my coaching programs or, you know, they’re reading the book or whatever, they’re going, this is so simple. I’m like, yes, you will be surprised at how simple this is. That is by design. And so again, it’s having very simple systems from

Rory & AJ Vaden (32:34)
Mm-hmm.

Sarah Robbins (32:59)
effective enrolling to onboarding. That’s how we start a new person. So again, this duplicates down the entire team. It’s kind of like pseudo franchising. It’s like we all know of like that really successful, you know, coffee franchise. There’s one on every corner. And I don’t care if you like the coffee or you are allergic to the coffee. If you were to walk into one of those coffee shops, you know exactly what to expect as a consumer. Guess what? Every single employee walks in and they know exactly what.

to do. And it’s created, you know, this multi-billion dollar global giant. Now in my business, it’s like pseudo franchising because we don’t have overhead employees that brick and mortar building, right? But we build our business on simple replicatable systems.

Rory & AJ Vaden (33:44)
I love that. I love what you said too is just like massive momentum cannot happen alone. Right. And it reminds me of that old African proverb. If you want to go fast, go alone. But if you want to go far, go with others. Yeah. And it’s so much like that. And I think, again, leadership mentality is you’re not going to do this by yourself. Right.

Sarah Robbins (33:58)
That’s good.

Rory & AJ Vaden (34:06)
So who’s the team and how can you help them succeed as quickly as you’re helping yourself succeed? I had a mentor in my younger days, his name was Ron Marks. And I love, I use this story all the time. And he talks about how to go from a great performer, sales performer, to a great leader, you have to learn how to stop being in the spotlight and instead become the spotlight operator. And it’s like, that’s so much of what you’re saying. It’s like, it’s not about me anymore.

It’s about the collective, it’s about them, and it’s not being in the spotlight, it’s being the spotlight operator.

Sarah Robbins (34:41)
That’s very good. And let me just say that was something that kind of I had this mindset shift to in this new season. Where actually you’ll see behind me, it was cute when I first started my business, my last name is Robbins and people call me Rockin’ Robbins. And you know, of course that just stuck and that became our team name. And in this new season, we came together and I was like, this is one team. We’re just, one team. It’s not about a person. It’s not about a name. It’s a mission. It’s a vision.

and how do we lift this movement and how do we come together as leaders and really lift this launch? So it’s like 20 years later, just kind of seeing how all of that evolves too, but I totally agree.

Rory & AJ Vaden (35:20)
Yeah, I love that. And I think those are all just like the great reminders of leadership in general and like how are you seen and how do you see your team because that affects the culture and all those like micro momentum movements. Okay, next one, I social media and scaling. And so what would you say is working right now on social that others might be missing?

Sarah Robbins (35:46)
Yeah, to be successful on social, specifically if you’re selling, you got to stop selling all the time. It’s focused on storytelling. One of the things you and Rory said to me is, because I was going through kind of season of promoting my book, I’m like, my gosh, I feel like I’m selling. And you’re like, you’re serving. And I was like, that is true. But there are two things that really work when it comes to social media is creating posts that perform with the audience and in the algorithm. And it’s always first and foremost with the audience. Why?

We have to create content that people actually like, not just hit the like button, but it’s like, we have to pause before we post every day and ask ourselves, how can I make his or her life easier today? Like, who’s my avatar? If I sell wellness, besides talking about my products, because my product is only one solution to the problems that they’re facing, what other things can I share? Recipes. My favorite supplement stack that aren’t all from my company.

how I’m getting the water, high protein snacks, a lot of different ideas that speaks to her or speaks to him. So if you want to trump the algorithm, you’re the place that people check on purpose, that they go to for a source of inspiration, motivation, education. And then the second side of it is after we’ve said, I given great value today, or did I just show up to sell something, is thinking about the algorithm.

As it relates to social media, conversation is the currency of social media. And what do I mean by that? So the algorithm looks for saves and shares. So think about your favorite recipe. That would be something that maybe they would share with a friend or save. Likes and loves, right? Content that people do naturally like or they love. A lot of that is like posts about our babies, our grandbabies, our fur babies, right? Like all of that really fuzzy feel good stuff.

but then also comments and conversation. So used to be in social media, we would post links. Problem is now the algorithm doesn’t like that, but also too, you can’t follow up on that. So I teach people that instead of posting links or language, what I’ll do is I’ll say, drop the word blank, whatever it is I’m talking about for more info. So drop the word collagen for info, drop the word insider for info, and people will comment one word and now I can follow up on that conversation.

Rory & AJ Vaden (37:53)
Damn.

Sarah Robbins (38:11)
but I will always take it a step further. So I’ll end with a one word call to action or even a question like, what is your favorite way to get in all your protein? I’m inviting you into the conversation, but I go back into the comment section and I ask more questions to create more conversation. Not only does it build a relationship, but what does that do? It tells the algorithm, a lot of people are hanging out here and talking. I want to show this post to more people.

So at the end of the day, we want to think about how will people actually naturally like this and what kind of content can I create that will spark a conversation too.

Rory & AJ Vaden (38:48)
Yeah, I think that’s I think that you really hit it it’s like you have to focus on serving the audience and making sure that you’re doing it with the algorithm in mind and it’s not one or the other it’s how do you both do both because you can right you can do both but I think that is something that’s really good just for everyone it’s like hey are you making content just for the algorithm are you making content just for the avatar right just for your audience and it’s like how do you actually come and do both

How do you serve the person, but then also make sure that you’re hitting all the things that you need to hit for the algorithm. Otherwise, no one’s going to see it and you stay the world’s best kept secret, which isn’t serving anyone. I love that. The other thing I heard you say, that’s kind of what I to call out is that, you you didn’t say it in these words, but this is what I heard you saying. It’s like, trust is the great multiplier. It’s like, be the trusted resource that people go to even if it’s not for your products or services.

Sarah Robbins (39:31)
True.

Rory & AJ Vaden (39:47)
You just have to be someone that they can trust because you’re being real, authentic, it’s valid, it’s credible. And then because of that, you’re never selling, you’re just serving.

Sarah Robbins (39:58)
Yeah, think about the people that we don’t wait for the algorithm to serve up their posts. I mean, there are people that I wake up and I’m like, I can’t wait to see what this person shared or the content that this one dropped. Right. And for me, it’s like, I have those several accounts that I’m going to every single day because they give such great value.

Rory & AJ Vaden (40:19)
Yeah, who’s your favorite account that you follow?

Sarah Robbins (40:22)
my gosh, I have so many of them, but actually one of them, I just did a podcast with her, is my friend Emily, Emily Ford. And I think for me, it’s like, there’s a few things that I feel like I relate to is, you know, faith, you know, and she’s always talking about faith and fashion and all the fun stuff, business, which again, I really align with. And she just kind of has like a cool way of like, you know, kind of sharing her message, but helping others share, you know, their message with the world. And then obviously,

you guys as well.

Rory & AJ Vaden (40:54)
We don’t count, but I think that’s good because it’s like, know, you got to have like what, and I love what you said too. It’s like, you’re not going there for one thing. It’s like, Hey, I really love her take on fashion and faith and business back to it’s like just a trusted resource. And it doesn’t have to be, cause I think that’s something that people struggle with. When we think about what are, what’s working that sometimes people are missing is they make it all about content. It’s just content, content, content. And it’s like, maybe people just want to know what you like to eat.

Sarah Robbins (41:02)
Yes.

Rory & AJ Vaden (41:20)
Maybe they want to know what your favorite vacation spot is or where you shop. And I hear so many people in my world going, they don’t care. I’m like, I think they do. Actually, I think they do care. And I think that’s back to it’s like this is because people want to know you. They want to know if they can trust you. And the more that you have in common with someone, the more there’s this natural level of trust, even if you’ve never met them. So I love that you brought that up because it isn’t just about. leadership content or business content, it’s.

Sarah Robbins (41:20)
you

They do.

Rory & AJ Vaden (41:50)
mixture of all the things because that’s it takes all of that to build trust especially if you’ve never met someone. That’s good. I love that. Okay two last topics and then we’ll wrap up but okay talking a little bit about leadership again. What would you say differentiates a great recruiter from a great leader?

Sarah Robbins (41:56)
True.

Ooh, that’s so good. Here’s the thing I will say, and it’s interesting. I haven’t seen people, example, seller versus team builder, where it’s like they get a bunch of sales, but they don’t sponsor one person. And after my years of not only building a successful sales team, but doing coaching in the industry, working with thousands of people, I started to ask the right questions because I wanted to know why.

And it’s interesting, you know how we hear oftentimes about fear of failure, but there’s actually a fear of failing other people. Like if they did join me, how would I enroll them? How would I start them successfully? Like how would I onboard them and how would I lead them? And I think there’s two things like leadership is a decision. It’s a choice. You know, as we talked about earlier, that story of like the day I made a decision to lead,

Leadership is not a promotion. It is not a pay plan because I know great leaders that I wouldn’t follow to the bathroom. In fact, let me just say this. There were leaders who not just in my company, but in companies also that had recently closed. We fared really well. A lot of our leaders, like their team said, well, wherever you go for chapter two, we’re coming. You led well. You led till the end because leaders lead in mountaintops and in valleys. They lead from the front.

Rory & AJ Vaden (43:34)
Thank

Sarah Robbins (43:35)
And then I watched leaders who kind of like hung out for a while and they sat on a paycheck and they wondered why in the second chapter, nobody came. Ultimately, I think that is the big thing is, you know, how we lead by example, that we double down on relationships that we’re doubling down on leadership in every single season. I don’t care if you’re on the mountain. I don’t care if you’re in the valley.

Rory & AJ Vaden (43:45)
Hmm.

Sarah Robbins (44:02)
It’s like, you you continue with that same level of care, tenacity, and really like hands on, like being in the trenches with your team. That’s what I think separates a leader from just a team builder.

Rory & AJ Vaden (44:17)
That’s so good. I wrote that down. y’all didn’t, y’all need to write this down is that leadership is a decision, not a promotion, right? And it’s like, there was this book that was written, oh my gosh, probably 20 years ago. Can’t believe I’m old enough to read books 20 years ago. But it was called, you don’t have to have a title to be a leader. And it’s a lot of like, no, it’s a decision. It’s not a promotion. It’s not a pay raise because that doesn’t make a leader.

A leader is someone who says, I choose to be a leader regardless of my title, regardless of my pay, and that’s somebody worth following. That’s good. And I love that you don’t have to have a title to be a leader. This isn’t a promotion. You don’t have to get a pay raise or get a promotion to do it. It’s just something you start doing today. It’s a decision. And that is the difference of why think why some leaders are followed and others aren’t. Yeah, that’s good. OK, last topic.

Sarah Robbins (44:50)
True.

Rory & AJ Vaden (45:12)
When it comes to legacy and thinking about beyond all the things that you’re doing right now, what would you say for you with the multiply method? Like how does that contribute to your legacy and what is the legacy that you want to leave?

not just in your professional accolades, but think a lot of this is I think books are a culmination of a legacy piece of these are all the things that I’ve learned in my personal life and professional life. These are the things that I feel like I can contribute to the world to help, to make it better. Those are legacy pieces if you do them, right? So I’d be curious to hear like, what does that mean to you? And how does this book help forward that vision?

Sarah Robbins (45:52)
Well, I really have a heart to redeem the industry. I sometimes when people hear my story and they think, well, gosh, I hope it never happens to me. And what does this mean for the industry? I’m like, the industry is not dying. It’s evolving and changing in order for you to continue to grow with the industry. You have to evolve and change. And the truth is, is if I didn’t think it wasn’t the best gig on the planet, I wouldn’t be doing it again. I’m not going to attach my name and network just anywhere else. And so I think it’s to bring hope back to the profession.

There are very few female leaders in our space that are stepping forward, even outside of their company, to serve at this capacity. And we need more of us. I say a healthy profession is healthy for all of us. When one company wins, it’s not just your team. When one company wins, the whole industry wins when we really rebrand how people are looking at us. And then the second thing is, you know,

I would say it’s like we multiply leaders who multiply leaders. For me, I believe that God gave me such a gift of wisdom in this business. so for me, like, this isn’t just, he never said it was just for this team or for this group of people. So it’s taking that gift and sharing with more people. And as a former teacher, my joy comes. Like I would say coaching for me is not a career, it’s a calling. would do it for free. My joy comes from

giving somebody a system for something that they think is hard, sales, social media, whatever, giving them a simple system and seeing success unlock. That is my greatest joy, is just seeing others celebrate their wins too.

Rory & AJ Vaden (47:29)
I love that. And I think that’s a great reminder for all of you who are listening of going, man, a calling is something that you can’t not do. And it’s all of us. It is worth the effort, the investment of time, energy and money to figure out what that calling is. And when you find it, it’s pursuing it in the pursuit of excellence, regardless of the company, regardless of what it is of going, no, like I was given a gift and I’m going to use it.

and I’m gonna make sure that I’m real good at it. And I think that’s, because there was an alternative to this, Dara. You could have been very bitter and resentful, and you’re not. And you have chosen the path of forgiveness and gratefulness, and you have taken everything that you have learned, and you are multiplying it into the future. And we all have those unique opportunities. And I think that’s a really important message for all of us because…

No one said success is easy. No one said life was easy. Marriage is hard. Kids are hard. Work is hard. It’s like choose your hard, right? It’s hard to be single. It’s hard to be married, right? It’s hard to have kids. It’s hard not to. It’s hard to have a very big business. It’s hard to have no business. Choose your hard, choose wisely, and then be frigging good at it. All right, y’all. Follow Sarah.

Sarah Robbins that’s on your IG, but then y’all pick up a book. All right, if you have learned anything I wrote down like ten things already pick up a book the multiply method comm come into all bookstores near you What’s the official date August? 12th right around the release of this Sarah such a great interview. I’m so excited for this book, but I’m also I love your dream of redeeming an industry that is

Sarah Robbins (49:06)
Yay!

Rory & AJ Vaden (49:19)
Maybe not in the most favorable terms right now, but that doesn’t mean good isn’t happening, that success isn’t happening, that people aren’t thriving. They are, you’re a testament to that. I think it’s such a cool thing that you’re doing. I’m so excited to see this book come out into the world. So y’all grab a copy, stay tuned for the recap episode and follow Sarah on social media. We’ll pull all the links in the show notes. Sarah, thank you. This was so wonderful. All right, everybody, we’ll see you next time.

Sarah Robbins (49:44)
Thank you.

Rory & AJ Vaden (49:48)
on the influential personal brand.

Ep 605: Neuroscience of Mental Health for Mission Driven Messengers with Dr. Caroline Leaf

Rory: [00:00:00] I am so honored today to bring you someone who is truly one of the most credible and qualified thought leaders in the world. Um, she’s become a good friend of mine. Her name is Dr. Caroline Leaf. She’s a bestselling author. She has a huge social media following of millions of followers, millions and tens of millions of downloads on her podcast.

I actually have to read some of her bio because some of these words are so big I can’t memorize them and pronounce them properly, but, so Dr. Caroline Leaf. Is a communication pathologist, audiologist, clinical and research neuroscientist with a master’s and PhD in communication pathology. Um, and uh, she’s got a specialist in psycho neurobiology and metacognitive.

Neuropsychology. Um, so since the early 1980s, she has researched the, the mind brain connection, uh, the nature of mental health and just the formation of memory. So she was one of the first people in her field of study to really. [00:01:00] Look at and analyze how the brain can change, which is a term known as neuroplasticity.

And she is really one of the, the, the deepest thinkers, the most recognized experts in her space. And she is the author of a fabulous new book called Help in a Hurry. And we’re gonna talk about the book today, but we’re gonna talk more specifically about. The status of mental health and how your mental health affects you as a personal brand or you as an entrepreneur and understanding how stress and overwhelm and imposter syndrome are all things that are connected.

Into, to what’s going on inside your brain and what you need to know to move past that, to perform at your highest so that you can reach more people and make a bigger impact in the world. So with that, Dr. Leaf, uh, a true honor to have you on the show. Welcome.

Dr. Caroline Leaf.: Thank you Rory. It’s so good. Always so good talking to you.

And thank you for just all the great advice you always give us. I mean, not only are we [00:02:00] good friends, but you always give us such good advice and helped have helped us so much. So thank you.

Rory: Yeah, thank you

Dr. Caroline Leaf.: for that nice intro. That was very kind. You.

Rory: You are. Um. Uh, in, in addition to being, you know, brilliant and being an expert in your field, you also have one of the biggest personal brands in the world.

And I wanted to see, you know, for this conversation, I was going, okay, how can we have a conversation on this show that nobody will hear on any other show? And it’s this connection between what you do with your field of study, but also connecting that to what you do as a business and building your personal brand.

And I wanna start with. Stress. Um, I wanna start with anxiety. I wanna start with burnout and understanding how does, if we don’t manage our mental health, because I think help in a hurry is really, you know, dials in on some of this. But if you’re an entrepreneur or an expert or a mission-driven messenger, if you don’t [00:03:00] manage your stress well, um.

That’s gonna affect how we perform, uh, with our personal brand. So what do we need to know about dealing with stress, anxiety, uh, and burnout? What’s going on in our brain and how can we have better mental health so we can perform more in our business?

Dr. Caroline Leaf.: Such a good question. And it’s applicable as you said to everyone, no matter who you are, what you’re doing, the, those words are just used all the time.

I’m just tired, I’m stressed, I’m burnt out. What we need to do is look at the language that people are using, first of all to answer your question, and that is in our, um, the biomedical model, which is the model. It has been used for about 50 years now to describe mental health has kind of messed with us a little as, as a, as messed with humanity and made us think that there’s something wrong with us if we feel emotions, if we don’t feel okay all the time, or if we have a lot of up and down emotions and if we have anxiety and if we have depression, there’s so much scary.

Um. Thoughts [00:04:00] attached to that because of the messaging that’s come through. And unfortunately, it’s not the correct messaging because you, anxiety, depression, stress, burnout, these are not mental illnesses. These are normal reactions to life experiences. So if we take away the word mental I out of the equation and push that to the side.

Rather it’s look at us as humans and our mental space and we’ve gotta, we go through life and we have challenges. How we react to those challenges and the types of challenges and all, all of that creates our how we are functioning in our mental space. And sometimes we have some really bad things happen and that can really knock us.

And if we don’t manage our reactions and understand how to read the signals, we can. Get worse and worse, and then we can get told we have diseases. And soon as you start labeling someone and putting that that thought into a person’s mind, it gets wired into the brain and then a self perpetuating loop starts getting set up and whatever.

So wrong messaging number one, can make us [00:05:00] look at our mental state in a, in a way that’s a little bit scary. So people, instead of dealing with it, maybe push it aside and think, okay, well that’s, I mean, that’s

Rory: fascinating. Like to go. People are using terms like mental illness. They’re saying, oh, anxiety, do you feel anxious?

Do you feel depressed? It’s like, yes, I’m human. And what I hear you saying is like. Those are normal emotions. There’s nothing wrong with you when you feel those. That’s the, that’s the way your brain sends you signals to help guide you and give you information to, to, for how you respond. But that doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with you, is what you’re saying.

Dr. Caroline Leaf.: Exactly. So emo anxiety is an emotion. It’s an emotional warning signal or an emotional signal, as is depression, as is frustration, as is jealousy. Any emotion. They are data, it’s there are signals giving you information. So sometimes they’re, they. Maybe at a 10. Anxiety could be at a 10 or a three. So it changes depending on what’s going on in your life and how you are responding the way that you respond.

We think, feel, and [00:06:00] choose in response to what’s happening to us and the way that we manage that process of thinking, feeling and choosing can take that anxiety signal and say, and, and we can do one of two things. We can say. Oh my gosh, I’m so anxious. There’s something wrong with me. I keep feeling anxious.

I’m anxious all the time. I’ve been anxious for weeks now. I must have a disease. I need to go to the doctor. There’s something wrong with my brain. And that in itself is putting, putting you into a very negative state. It’s creating all kinds of incorrect information from the mind into the brain, which we can discuss.

Break that mind brain connection in a moment. And creating and making things worse for you and guaranteed you’re gonna feel some depression, some this, some of that, your body’s gonna start playing up because everything’s linked. The mind, brain, body connection now, rather, you could stand back and say, okay.

I’m not anxiety. Anxiety is not an illness. Anxiety is information. It is one of four categories of signals. Well, it’s, it’s an emotion. It’s, it’s, it’s a, it falls under one four categories of signals of which one of them is emotional warning. Signals [00:07:00] and anxiety is an emotional warning signal. What does the signal do?

It gives us information. So I’m not gonna be scared of this anxiety. I’m gonna stand back and look at it. I can stand back into, into my conscious mind and I can tap into my non-conscious mind, which is that deep, spiritual, intuitive level that guides me where all the solutions are. And I can observe myself and I can say, okay, I’m not anxiety, but I’m experiencing anxiety.

Because of, I’m not depression. I’m experiencing depression because of, I’m not burnout. I don’t have a burnt out brain and a damaged brain. I’m experiencing burnout because of, and you start doing the work to search for the, because of, because you’ve landed up in that state, because of something going on in your life.

So it needs to be acknowledged to get control, and then it needs to be processed, embraced, processed, and reconceptualized. And so when you do that. Process. You shift, you shift everything. Your research shows mind, plus many others that the moment I say, okay, I’m not scared of anxiety, I’m not anxiety, I’m anxious because of [00:08:00] all your neuropsycho, neurobiology, all your mind, brain, body connection has shifted.

You’re in control Now, you still may not feel okay, you still feel lousy. You still, the issue’s still there, but you shifted the, the leadership from you being led by the anxiety and with all the wrong information. And getting worse to, oh, okay, this is information. How can I make it work for me? No information is bad, no signaling is bad.

I can take that and I can make it turn, turn it around and blow the energy levels and make it actually work for me. ’cause a little bit of anxiety is actually very good for me. That kind of thinking is the shift that we, that I try and help people understand.

Rory: Yeah. And you know, to me it’s the difference between when someone says, I’m de when when somebody says I am depressed.

They’re, they’re embracing that as their identity versus Exactly, and that’s an issue. You’re, what you’re saying is going, I feel depressed, which is a signal that’s giving you information for [00:09:00] how you should adapt your life. It’s accordingly. And to hear that from somebody with your pedigree is really powerful.

So. Okay, so I wanna talk about adapting to this. Um, so neuroplasticity is one of the things that you are like known worldwide for and neuroplasticity, I think. Okay. So correct me if I’m wrong here, but as, as I’ve. Understood. What I’ve learned from you is basically the brain’s ability to change. Um, and so a lot of times in personal development, like even in my first book, take The Stares, I, there’s a whole chapter on, uh, self-talk and, you know, just something that I had learned more intuitively about, you know, what you tell yourself.

But I think a lot of people think, oh, positive affirmations is sort of like fluffy, and it’s like hooey, fooey. But then when I hear you talk about neuroplasticity, I’m like. Wait a minute. This is like the, this is like grounded scientific [00:10:00] connection. So can you just help us understand like what is the role that neuroplasticity plays in helping us break past limiting beliefs that we have about our ourself and like reestablishing new beliefs?

Dr. Caroline Leaf.: Okay. Good question. Excellent question. Okay. Neuroplasticity is actually the mind’s ability to change the brain. So the brain, let’s think of the brain. The brain. Take the brain for a moment. The brain. I’ve got a model of a brain here. So those of you that are listening, I’m holding up brain. Yeah.

Rory: Say that again real quick.

You said neuroplasticity is the mind’s ability. To change the brain.

Dr. Caroline Leaf.: The brain, yes. So the mind’s doing the work, not the brain. So we need to change our narrative. It’s not my brain made me do it. It’s not my brain. My amygdala is a fear detection, um, threat. It, it identifies threats. It’s not, your brain doesn’t do anything.

Your brain can’t think. Your brain can’t. Anything. It can uh, it’s a conduit. It is a responder. It’s something that your mind uses so that you can actually show up in the world [00:11:00] and your brain is designed biologically to be changed. It’s malleable, but it can’t change itself. It’s changed by something and that’s something is your mind.

So what we need is mind management. ’cause when we manage our minds, we then manage the brain. The body, the brain, and the body are around about 1% of who you are as a human. The mind is 99% of who you are. So if we paid total attention and keep thinking, well, my brain made me do it, what’s happening is that we are getting trapped inside our sensations.

How we feel, um, that that physical, the physical sensations or, and our five senses, which are actually only 1%, but because they’re so in your face, that when you feel that anxiety, when you feel that gut wrenching pain in your body, when you, when you. Feel this, the, the physiological responses in your body.

If you don’t know that that is a 1% part of you and that you can get that under control, you’ll get consumed by that. And then that can take you down that spiral of negative thinking, and then those belief systems just grow [00:12:00] stronger and stronger and that negative self-talk, et cetera, et cetera. So what we need to first understand is the power of the mind.

The mind is fundamental and you’s distinction.

Rory: The mind is. Not the brain. Those are two different things, is what you’re saying. Two

Dr. Caroline Leaf.: different things. Yes. And this goes right back to Thomas Akin, back to St. Augustine, back to um, in Decart also had a hand in this talking about mind being separate from brain, but the difference between what Decart, for example, and someone like St.

Augustine or Thomas Akin said, and what I say and what modern science actually says, is that your mind. Is all around and inside your brain and your body. So here you see me, I see you. Our mind is around us and through us, and it has different levels. Um, it has got your conscious level, your subconscious, and your non-conscious level.

That’s kind of like your spirit, soul and body, a spirit and soul kind of thing. And then you’ve got your body, but the fundamental nature is your mind. And your mind is. Making the changes in your brain, your brain is a host or a conduit, and basically it, it, it’s, it’s a derivative. It’s basically your mind [00:13:00] makes a change.

So if I have a limit, if, if I, um, hear someone says something to me that you are not good enough, and that comes in from outside by someone who’s a, that a child gets or someone in your life. Is a caregiver or someone that has a big impression on, makes a big impression in your life, they say that to you.

It’s very sensely strong. It’s got high energy. It comes in through this field of the mind first. Everything’s first in this field of the mind. It gets. Processed throughout the mind, and then a copy of it gets made and put into the brain as energy. So literally first that experience is in the mind, like a little cloud of energy.

Imagine little clouds all around you. Of all these experiences, every little cloud of energy gets copied and placed into the brain and into the body. And that connection between the mind, brain, and body is how you are then able to show up in life. Now, if someone said to you, you’re not good enough, and that planted as a baseline little cloud that.

Wired in your brain and in your body. That’s like a [00:14:00] baseline related to identity. And that from that, you then receive other information. So other people say, oh, well done, but you don’t really believe it because you’re not good enough. Because that other core belief was so, so deeply, um, wired into the, that’s what neuroplasticity is.

You receive it in your mind and you build it into the brain and the body. The good news is that neuroplasticity is also the ability to reverse that. Nothing ever stays the same. So even if that happened to you as a child, but you

Rory: don’t, if you don’t learn how to consciously reverse it. It’s like you’re trying to, it

Dr. Caroline Leaf.: stays there.

Rory: It stays there, and any new input comes, it’s stronger. Then it goes, no, this is a conflict with the underwriting programming. So it just bounces off until you rewrite the, like the, under the, the foundational program.

Dr. Caroline Leaf.: You have to, you have to rewrite from the cloud to the brain, to the body. You have to, that little cloud of energy, you have to rewrite that whole process.

So you have to rewrite what your mind put in, which means your mind’s got different levels. So we’ve got a, A level. That is, uh, is basically processing data, the incoming [00:15:00] data. Then we have a, that’s a conscious mind consciousness that we hear all this. Everyone’s always talking about consciousness, and that’s got a part of it that is like a toddler.

You’ve got young kids and they’re all over the place, hungry, up and down, learning hungry to learn, but you as the parent guide them. So think of your conscious mind, the part that is helping you to process this data as having a toddler part that. It’s great ’cause it gathers the data excitedly and thinks and feels, but then there’s the parent guiding it.

So what happens is that when we get stuck in a negative belief system, the toddler mind is activated, but it ignores the parent mind. So now the parent mind doesn’t give, is there to give advice. But now you don’t take the advice. So now you build this little cloud of energy, build it into the brain, and now this and, and the body.

Now a network is set up and now every time something comes in that is, that activates that, it just gets more added to it. Because these, these networks are organic and dynamic and they learn, but they could be learning the wrong stuff and that long stuff could be, I’m not good enough. But now, as soon as you stand back, [00:16:00] how do you stand back?

You with your conscious mind, you are able, as the parent, part of the conscious mind stand back and say, okay, hang on. Let’s have a look at this. What is the truth? Let’s stand back and observe. So then now the parent mind balances the toddler mind. So then you bring that thought into your conscious awareness and you, your parent.

Mind helps you to start being curious, why am I thinking this? Is this really true? Where does this come from? And so you begin a process of exploration. As you do this curious exploration, you open up, um, you open up the depth to the depths of your non-conscious, NON, not unconscious. Unconscious, a brain state.

When you sleep or under anesthesia, non-conscious is your spiritual level that operates 24 7. It’s where all your wisdom, intuition, intellect, reasoning, it’s kind of got levels. It’s your first levels, your sort of intellect and reasoning, and then the deeper level is your intuition and insight and wisdom, and you’ve got creativity in between.

So all that good stuff is down there now, what we needed as humans to function to be good [00:17:00] entrepreneurs. Deal with these critical belief systems. The self-critical talk, there’s people pleasing, imposter syndrome, all these networks that have been wired in via neuroplasticity by our mind processing things in, in, in the wrong way is we need to take those belief systems and stand back into the parent mind and as soon as the parent mind says, Hey, hang on, let’s just question this a bit.

It opens the door to the unconscious and now we start doing a little bit of logic and reasoning, and now we go deeper into, into intuition because inside each and every one of us is every solution to every problem and what, but we have to dig to find it. But what so often happens in the busyness of life and the.

Pressures of life and I’ve gotta get X done and I’ve gotta do this. And if I’m not nice to that person and don’t keep them happy, then this is gonna happen. Oh my gosh, if I’d only done this or it’s too much and burnt out, or I’ve got anxiety, there’s something we, we’ve got so much that’s the toddler going crazy and that chaos just adds more and more layers of chaos.

Now in between. We have a [00:18:00] great moment. Insight and great moment in relationship or work. And so then in those great moments, if you recall those great moments where you have a great conversation or you have a breakthrough at work, or you get a bestselling book, or you have a beautiful time with your wife or your kids, that’s as soon as that you have those, that’s evidence that your toddler mind stop for a moment.

Listen to the parent mind tapped into the intuitive part of you and you started just being yourself. And that truth started coming through. When I talk about mind management, I’m talking about learning and training yourself to recognize when you have got caught in the chaos, when you got caught in that mental mess, when you need that help in a hurry.

When you finding yourself reacting and thinking going into these spirals, it’s to stop and say, that’s not me. I acknowledge it and it’s okay to not be okay. Acknowledge it, but let me open up these levels of wisdom inside of me to handle this differently. And that’s mind work when you die. Your brain [00:19:00] disintegrates, your body disintegrates, but your mind carries on, your spirit and your soul, carry on.

They have an eternal value, and that’s been scientifically established. It’s more significantly scientifically established that we have more beyond just our physical than the physical is established. So there’s more science showing that we more than just the brain and the body. Wait, wait, wait, wait.

Rory: Say that, say that again.

You’re, you’re saying. Science has proven that after you die, you,

Dr. Caroline Leaf.: you exist.

Rory: There’s an existence that, that, that continues.

Dr. Caroline Leaf.: Yes. There’s research that reality exists beyond the physical and it’s, and the evidence is more significant than, for example, some of the. Top significance of top drugs that we use on the current market.

So that means in terms of all the science language that a drug is put out to market, when it is supposedly significantly doing what it’s supposed to do, a medication, the research on mind and mind being separate from brain, but working through the brain and the body. There’s this relationship this, there’s this interactive [00:20:00] relationship, um, that, that they have.

And that the fact is that these. Once our physical brain and body pass, there is, um, there is reality that exists beyond that. There’s more significant research evidence proving that than it is that we just, this is all there is and that’s great to know because that means that that intuitive deep part of me, that thing’s coming from a level of wisdom that’s stepping into a level of wisdom that is something we need to spend the time.

Delving into, so the work that I do in my, I don’t practice anymore, but the, in the coaching and in the books and all that sort of thing in the podcast is to help people to manage their mind. And managing the mind means when I’m anxious, that’s a signal. It’s an emotional signal. Where do I feel that in my.

Body where, what is, how is that affecting what I say and what I do? How is that affecting my perspectives looking at those signals? The minute I do that, I gather awareness of those signals. I can then name that thing. Oh, okay. Well, [00:21:00] I’m feeling anxious because, and I validate because we can’t run What you resist persists.

You have to deal, you have to face, you have to look at it in the face. And so the, the. Once you’ve acknowledged those signals, then it’s to name, what is this attached to? I’m feeling this anxiety, but anxiety is not an it. This behavior is not an it. These are. Attached to something they’re attached to. What a thought.

What is a thought? It’s an experience. What’s an experience made of? Lots of details, lots of data. This conversation is an experience. We’re saying lots of words. So this experience, this conversation is a thought made up of the words, which are the memories. So every. Lot of signals is attached to a thought that thought’s made of lots of memories, and sometimes the source of those memories, the roots, are not so great, in which case, and if we’ve never dealt with that, we just keep reinforcing that same thing.

It just that same network just keeps being reinforced. Neuroplastic,

Rory: would it be is, is it accurate to say that an emotion [00:22:00] is not a problem? An emotion is a symptom. That is the result of something else, like an experience like it. There’s an experience that we had that led to thoughts, and if we don’t deal with those or change the way we think about those, then the emotion persists until we go back and change the way that we’re thinking about that experience or that thought, and that’s what mind management is.

Dr. Caroline Leaf.: Almost 100% correct. So your thought is your experience, and we have all of our existing thoughts from everything that we’ve ever gone through. And then we have new experiences that become thoughts. So. The past is all our past experiences that have become thoughts with memories and the present are the new ones coming in, and then there’ll be ones in the future.

And all of those work together. So every new, like this conversation is a new thought coming in, but it’s activating existing thoughts and those thoughts have got memories inside of them. So we look at. The current through the view of our existing networks, and it all gets coordinated now. Every thought is, um, imbued with [00:23:00] emotions and, and that then manifests our behaviors and our perspectives and so on.

So, um, that the, the, the emotions are part of the thought networks. So a thought networks data. But the, the, the, the aliveness is the emotional and perspective component. And then the behavioral component is, is what we say and what we do. That’s why we talk about four categories of signals that each thought generates.

So every thought generates emotions. Every thought generates those emotions inside the body. So we are gonna have a sensorial. Variance of those emotions. So the thought comes alive through the emotions, through the body, through how we look at life and through what we say and do. So what we can do, my management is our ability to look at what am I feeling?

Where am I feeling it? How’s this making me at? What’s it, how’s it affecting my perspective? Oh, okay. Where does that come from? What’s the detail? What, where’s the source? How can I deconstruct? I can’t change what’s happened to me. You can’t ever change the past, but you can change what it [00:24:00] looks like inside of you.

That’s the key with neuroplasticity. Mm-hmm. So with your mind, you do say that again. Signals

Rory: you. So you gotta say that again. You can’t change the past, but you can. Change what

Dr. Caroline Leaf.: it looks like inside of your networks. So that’s directed neuroplasticity. That’s what mind management is doing. Mind management is catching via the signals.

The thought. You don’t, can’t just catch the thought. You have to get the The signals. The signals then pulls up the thought and helps us to unpack it and deconstruct it and rebuild it. But you still remember the past, but you’re not now sitting with a toxic tree. Look at this. Thought type this to represent for fun, a thought network, a wiry looking tree, whereas I’ve got a healthy green tree.

So I often use this to represent a thought because the thought’s got all these branches and connections and sources like a root. So if I, um, this will generate negative signals, this will generate. Healthy signals. This is going to make me depressed and anxious and withdrawal, and life sucks and my body feels sick, et cetera, et cetera.

This is gonna have [00:25:00] the opposite, but I can change them. Neuroplasticity in a is my ability as a human to step into that wise, intuitive parent, part of my conscious mind and tap into the, the endless wisdom of the, of the intuitive, non-conscious, and do something about this and rewire it. I can’t eliminate it, but I can rewire it, reorganize it.

Pick it up and throw it away and dig it out and throw it away, but I can shrink this. So eventually it’s mainly this with just a tiny little reminder of, once I was like that, now I’m like this. So I take that learning, I learn from this. I wire that into the new learning. Now that is mind management and that’s directed neuroplasticity and that’s what we can do as humans.

Rory: It’s, it’s interesting to me because, because I had an epiphany at some point in my life where every single memory I have. When I realized that every single memory I have is not exactly what happened, every single memory I have is an [00:26:00] interpretation of what happened. It’s something that I chose to remember about what happened, and you go, if that’s true, then.

I can take anything that has ever happened to me and I can adapt my own interpretation of what that thing was in a way that is more empowering or clarifying or insightful or inspiring than it is exactly like, you know, judgmental or vindictive or, uh, you know, some somehow hurtful to, to me and others.

And it’s to go, wow, that is actually. Foundationally rooted in neuroscience and neuro biology and neuro and, and that is neuroplasticity. So, uh, so I wanna talk about imposter syndrome. I can you explain from a scientific perspective what is happening to someone’s brain when a mission-driven messenger feels.

The sense of imposter syndrome and what do we need to [00:27:00] know about what that is and how to move past that.

Dr. Caroline Leaf.: So I’m very glad you asked that question. So basically, imposter syndrome is coming from, let’s talk about the sort of psychological and then go into the psycho neurobiology of it. Psycho neurobiology being the psycho mind by neuro brain biology body.

So. Everything, everything every thought you have affects your brain and your body. And in fact, just a sidebar here, 35 to 95% of illnesses, lifestyle ill diseases come from our thought life. So basically our, we are, we wear and tear our brain and our body. So if we, if we don’t manage our mind, we put chaos in the brain and the body.

Eventually we wear our wear. Out our systems, but fortunately we can, depending on how far down the health, um, road one has gone, you can reverse and arrest and things to a certain extent. Okay. So, um, imposter syndrome has come from comparison, but it’s first come from an, an identity issue because, um, my. If I’ve been labeled in some way or if I [00:28:00] don’t, if I haven’t tapped into my, what I like to call the perfect you, because each there’s something you can do that I can’t do.

There’s something that every person on this planet can do that no one else can do, so that the normal neurobiology, the normal psycho neurobiology of humanity, the spiritual, normal, spiritual psycho neurobiology of humanity is that. There’s no competition. There’s only enhancements because Rory can do something that Caroline can’t and vice versa.

So therefore, we better together than we are apart. We better in community and connection and enhancement and in co incoherence, but we live in a world that says the opposite thing. It’s all about competition. That you’re competing with someone else as opposed to, um, be enhancing someone else. And so when, when we go into that competitive state, it will distort realities.

And it doesn’t mean that you can’t get to the top. And it doesn’t mean that you, you know, you’re not, when someone is, is in our field and in our lane and they seem to be doing better than us. The fact that you even think that. [00:29:00] Means that you’ve moved into competitive lane. So we need to stand back and say, why am that’s, and there’s never a judgment.

It’s okay to think it’s okay to not be okay. That’s what this book really is about. It’s okay to have those, those moments where you grab hold of, okay, this is what I’m thinking now. I’m, I’m, I feel like I’m not good enough. I, I Why? Because you’ve just compared yourself to someone else. You’ve just tried to compete with someone else.

Mm. You’ve. Focused away from what you can do. So it, it involves a lot of rebuilding a person’s identity. So when I work clinically with people with imposter syndrome, and I mean, well I’ve even experienced it under, but I you, it’s something that’s in your field, it’s in life. It’s so easy in this day and age as well.

’cause it’s so easy to compare yourself to other people. Sure.

Rory: But the key

Dr. Caroline Leaf.: thing amplified by

Rory: social media and instant communication and Absolutely. Like, I mean, absolutely amplified.

Dr. Caroline Leaf.: Absolutely. So the key thing with imposter syndrome is to realize that there’s not something wrong with you. It’s that you got sucked into competition and it’s affected [00:30:00] your identity.

So it be healing begins by you going back to who are you, what is your voice, and spending time just getting to know yourself. I mean, it’s really like what. Read books, read fiction, read the things that you’ll learn about yourself when you move away. It’s very important to spend and, and honestly, reading fiction is a really quick way of learning about yourself because you’ll be drawn to stories that seem to tell you something.

And as your creativity and imagination or activated, you go into that deeper, deeper level of non of the unconscious mind, which is your intuitive level. Once you hit the intuitive level, you start finding yourself. So it’s like logic and reasoning, creativity and imagination. Intuition me. And what we wanna do is take ourselves down to that level.

When I, when I know who I am and I know my voice and I work on raising my voice, I’ll suddenly start seeing, I want to support others. I want to celebrate others that I can catch myself. If I see someone who’s doing better or who’s doing something that I think I should be doing and want to doing it or whatever, or I’m not good enough, or they know more than me, I, [00:31:00] instead of running from it, I can just say, oh, that’s interesting.

Let me stand back into what I call the multiple perspective advantage. Stand back into that. Parent conscious part of your mind, open the door to the wise, non-conscious and say to yourself, okay, that’s a valid statement. You are feeling this in your body, this emotion, this affecting your perspective. You know, go through those signals and name the statement, validate it, and then do some kind of breathing or whatever to calm down your neurophysiology and then shift over to, okay, well now let’s really reflect on this.

What is the, is this the truth? Who, the what, the when, the where, the why, the how, then what memories does it bring up? ’cause as you start. Doing this, you’re going deeper and deeper. You’re going down, you’re starting to reason, you’re moving down towards intuition as you get to that who, what, when, where, why, how it starts generating.

Thoughts and opening thoughts up like a flower opens up in bloom or pollen comes out of a flower, memory start emerging and other thoughts and connected thoughts and, and suddenly you get data, more and more data. Now you can take data and you can go to intuition, and intuition [00:32:00] will take you into you and you can start looking at all of this objectively and say.

Oh, okay. You having in a moment where specifically that person quoted that scientific paper and you feel potentially it made your you ing your own research immediately you can say, well, that’s what’s happening, but what’s the truth? The truth is that that’s it. That’s really interesting what they found.

This is what I found. I’m sure there’s some whatever, whatever, and you have it, you can have a normal discussion. So instead of imposter, I now get excited about my voice and I now learn from that situation and grow as a person versus being. Wiped out by the imposter syndrome. Does that make sense?

Rory: Yes, absolutely.

I mean, I, I think, you know, understanding that imposter syndrome is fundamentally connected to competition. Totally huge neurological insight to me because you know, like one of the things that we’ve realized is like when you’re competing, there are wins and losses. And if we are in our brain, if, if, if we’re reverting [00:33:00] back to a competitive time in our life, most of us in our competitive careers, we ended up not being the champion.

Right. Like unless you were the state champion or the world champion, like. At some point in every form of competition in our life, we ended up not being number one. And so there’s, I could see how that would root biologically. Yeah, a lot of negative emotions for all of us. And so when you’re competing, there’s wins and losses, but when you’re serving, there’s only wins and win.

Exactly. When you just lean into going, like, it’s not about me winning, it’s not about me being smarter, it’s about how can I process this new information exactly to be more helpful and more useful. Um. And you get out of, there’s like this magic that you snap out of that com competition and just go, I’m not competing against other colleagues.

I’m, I’m competing against, you know, being more helpful to other people and serving, uh, you know, my, my end user, my, my [00:34:00] end customer. But to, to realize that that goes directly to. Our neuroscience and being, and being drawn into competition without even realizing it. That’s, that’s really powerful insight.

Dr. Caroline Leaf.: And it goes right down to rewiring that because you, you’ll probably find something happen at some point in your life. It could be recent, it could be old, could be from child, whatever, and that that needs to be when you found the source and the root, you can then rewire. But it takes standing back and observing and recognizing specifically that that.

When people battle with imposter syndrome, one of the big things that I say to them, and I’ll say to myself if it hardly pops up anymore, because I know how to manage it now, but it did a lot, especially when I first started out in the world of science as a woman in a very patriarchal, dominant world. Um, you know, they’d go up to my husband and say.

Hey Dr. Leaf. You know, they would overlook, you know, that’s the, just the whole, and just, I’ve had signed male scientists say to me, you’re not a scientist. Meanwhile, I’m doing more research than what they, yeah. It’s just having come through that kind of environment, I always say to myself, and I’d [00:35:00] say to my patients, and I’ll say to everyone listening today, there’s something you can do that no one else can do.

And that is so important to find because that what you can do. That no one else can do is the piece of the puzzle. That is what Ev, and I know it sounds so cheesy, but Rory, it’s so valid and it’s so key to overcoming that imposter syndrome. You’re not gonna get rid of it through an affirmation. You’re not.

’cause an affirmation is an attempt to take something that’s positive and place it on top of something that’s negative. It’s like putting a bandaid on a wound. It’s like taking an opioid. When your hand is on the stove, take your hand off the stove. That’s why your hand’s sore. The open’s not gonna stop the, you know, the, the pain.

So we, the painkiller not an a painkiller. So essentially we, what we need to do is we need to, uh, we need to look deeper and see who am I, what is it that I can do that no one else can do, and how can I do that to enhance others? And the research, so much research neuroscientific, psycho neurobiological research, research that I’ve done with my team, where we’ve even seen [00:36:00] changes down to the level of the DNA.

When you shift that. Perspective and you start recognizing who you are and your identity starts coming back and you stop saying, I’m depression, I’m anxiety, I’m an imposter. I’m, when you shift that, you start opening the doors to dealing with a lot of the other mental health issues. It’s very much a, you know, it’s not the only core issue, but it’s a very core issue, are authenticity and our identity.

Rory: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I, um, so help in a hurry. So this is the name of the book, which I lo I love this idea and I think. W if somebody is struggling with some type of like mental health situation. What should they do? Like what are the things they can do to get help in a hurry? Obviously get the book y’all like you could tell this is, this is amazing.

It’s so fascinating to me. Um, but in addition to like, you know, you also mentioned like the four triggers and I think we’ve only talked about one of them, which is emotion. So I would love to hear that of just helping us process. Okay. When I have anxiety or I have imposter syndrome, or I have fear, or [00:37:00] I do feel overwhelmed.

What should I practically do? Like how do I coach myself through those situations?

Dr. Caroline Leaf.: Okay, so just quickly go a little bit of neurobiology and neuroscience. Is that let, let’s say that this toxic looking tree over here, this wire looking tree is the imposter syndrome and the roots of it are the wherever the source was, someone’s saying something to you or whatever, and it just never was dealt with.

It was just shoved down and shoved aside and never really dealt with. If you don’t deal, lot of stuff, what you resist will persist and just get stronger. So this is not just a wiry looking tree in your brain. This is a. Misfolded network. It’s proteins that are misfolded, it’s inflammation, it’s chemicals going create, creating hac.

It is everything that’s supposed to be running normally, not running normally. So as much as a virus can invade the body and make biological changes our thoughts of, for example, imposter syndrome, do the, create the same physical damage as something like a virus. Wow. Wow. That’s

Rory: amazing that a thought can have the same [00:38:00] biological damage as a, as a virus.

Dr. Caroline Leaf.: even more. And it’s, it’s, that’s why we have like the, the, the, when people, your thoughts create reality literally. So you, you are your thoughts, you are your mind, your brain and body just follows suit. It’s not the other way around. So when we, when we recognize that the research I do, which is psycho neurobiology, you will look at when someone in taking someone through a process of it takes around 63 days to break a habit.

So a habit of imposter syndrome, which is a, is a wired in network that has become an automatized habit. Um, which means it’s intelligent and logical and driving you and learning. And the more you don’t deal with it, the stronger it actually is getting, ’cause it’s learning to be more and more of an imposter syndrome.

That is an actual physical, structural, biological change in your brain and your body that’s increasing your vulnerability to disease. It’s affecting your gut, it’s affecting your heart. Various different ways that it can affect us. Right down to your telomeres, which are your part of your DNA. They’re basically the ends of chromosomes.

So [00:39:00] we’ve shown that within nine weeks of mind management, just managing your mind, you can completely reverse that process. You can, we’ve had people gain up to 35 years of biological health. Um, and if so, people that were like 30 in these thirties were the 65-year-old. Biological health, going back to match, catching, getting.

So they’re 35, but they, but their body says they’re 65. That’s what it means. But within nine weeks, getting their body and their biological, their mental health and their biological health at the same chronological and biological at the same age, that’s 35 years of. Gaining health, mental health. So what it means is that I’m not decrying the fact that people have extreme states, extreme depression, extreme anxiety, um, where the mind really can, can, can literally break apart because of extreme trauma, et cetera, et cetera.

That’s, that they, they, it’s so harsh and so dramatic, and that’s generally, um, trauma. So trauma is when something happens. To you, and it can really break, but it doesn’t mean that that person can’t heal. It means it’s gonna take [00:40:00] longer, not just one cycle of 63 days to break a trauma cycle. It’s gonna take multiple cycles.

But if it’s a habit that you’ve developed, um, and something like impostor syndrome is something that’s, um, basically a habit that you have. Have developed, you can basically rewire that network in around 63 days. Most people think you can change a habit in 21, but it takes three cycles of 21. It’s different phases you go through and it’s a daily micro habit that you do.

So it’s a daily process that you follow. So to come back to the four signals and all that stuff. So 63 days is the research shows is what I need to rewire a network using directed neuroplasticity. So if I want to wire out the imposter syndrome to take the example we’ve used today, I’m not gonna wire it out.

After one session of listening to me, you’re gonna have to go and actually do the, apply a formula over 63 days. But what you can do in the moment that it happens. So I’m gonna tell you two things now in the moment that something happens, this is what this book deals with. This book deals with, how do I deal with imposter syndrome [00:41:00] in this moment?

I’m sitting in a meeting and someone says something and. Can’t answer because all that is flaring up. So this gives you the ability to manage the 63 seconds. So what we see from science is that if you can create a pause of 63 seconds, you can actually get yourself back under control. You can direct the energy of the mind, brain, body connection, and you can affect.

Right down to the level of the DNA. You can get yourself in a place of, of calm, like the orange and the red before the green on the traffic light. And that’s what this book is. It’s filled with strategies of, if I hit that, people pleasing, imposter syndrome, regret cycle, um, anything where you need to get calm.

So it’s strategies to do that. Now, once I’ve hit the mark of, okay, I’ve managed the 63 seconds, I haven’t fallen apart, I’ve managed to recognize that I’m reacting and I’m scared to say anything, but I’ve gone through the little. Technique and I’m now back on track, and even though I’m still feeling a little bit wobbly, I have managed to master the 63 seconds.

I’m still gonna say that in that meeting, when you’ve mastered 63 seconds, you can [00:42:00] master. In the next 10 minutes, you can master the next seven days. So this book also teaches you how to manage the 63 seconds and teaches you how to manage the 10 minutes and how to then get yourself to look at seven days.

Why seven days, seven days is how we can start seeing if it’s a pattern in our life. Once you find a pattern, you then can go into the 63 days, which is the, is. Time it takes to rewire or multiple cycles of its trauma. What do you do each day? The neuro cycle and the neuro cycle? I’ve got an app. I’ve got other books.

I reference the short version of it in here, plus a whole ton of other techniques. It’s basically how you gather awareness of the four signals, emotions, behaviors. Bodily sensations and perspectives. Those then take you to the thought, you name the thought, and then you reflect on that. That’s the second step.

It’s all very clearly outlined in, in the, in the books, in this book and in, um, my other books. And I’ve got an the app, neuro cycle app. Um, and then you go to the third step, which is basically. Digging up all the other memories. Um, it’s just [00:43:00] basically a mindstorm that you do. And then what you do is you’ve now got all this data, you’ve got all these emotions, you’ve got the name of the thought, you’ve reflected, you’ve got a bit of who, what, when, where, why.

Now you’re at a point where you can start rechecking, where you can start saying, reconceptualizing, what does this mean? How could I mind shift this? And then you create a little action. So you do that in about five to 15 minutes a day, and that is the formula that you apply to. Direct neuroplasticity, you’re literally rewiring that mind, brain, body network in the direction you wanted to go and changing how it plays out into your future.

And you do that daily for the different cycles.

Rory: That is phenomenal. And so it’s so inspiring and encouraging to me to go these. Things that are happening, that we’re feeling are very real and there’s nothing wrong with us. When we feel them, we should feel them. We should allow ourselves to feel them.

They’re rooted in science and biology, but at the same time, we have power over them when we realize it’s not my identity, it’s just a thought. It’s [00:44:00] just a story. It’s just an experience. And that knowing that what I tell myself about the thing that happened or what I tell myself about the emotion I’m experiencing is.

Is like most of the battle. I mean, it can, it, it, it affects my physical, it is my, my, my status and then just my, my ability to actually get out there and perform physically is connected so directly to the ability to have. You know, controlling my mind. And, um, I just, I love this so much. So y’all go get the book, help in a Hurry.

It’s called, um, where do you Want People to Go, Dr. Leaf to, to get this book and stay connected to all the things that you’ve got going on.

Dr. Caroline Leaf.: Oh, thanks Rory. They can get whatever books are sold and my Dr. Leaf do um com is the website. And my social media handles are Dr. Caroline Leaf on all nine, all the platforms.

Um, so they can get lots of, and the podcast is the Dr. Lee Show. So, and you’ve been on that show?

Rory: Yeah. You, you’ve been, you’ve been such a great supporter of us [00:45:00] too, which I, I appreciate so much. And. I’m such a nerd. I feel like if I would’ve had a different path in life, I could have ended up maybe going down like cognitive neuroscience because I I love what you do so much.

It’s

Dr. Caroline Leaf.: so interesting.

Rory: It is interesting and it’s inspiring and it, it, it’s, it’s, it’s just, it’s like it’s rooted in science, but also I think it know some of the things that you’ve said here, like the idea that there’s more evidence. There’s more scientific evidence that points to life after death. And there is scientific evidence that points to some of the pharmaceutical drugs that are on the markets.

Uh, their efficacy is like, it is mind blowing. It is so that you know if you’re a, a person of faith, uh, or if you’re just a person who believes in people. To go. There’s science that backs all of this and supports that, and you, you dig to those deepest levels and then you kind of bring it forward for all of us to understand and apply and make sense of.

So, um, thank you [00:46:00] for the work that you do. Dr. Lee, thank you for being who you are and, uh, we wish you the best. This is the book. Help in a Hurry. Everybody go buy the book. Go check out Dr. Leaf. Her work is. Incredible. And, um, Dr. Leaf, we just, we just wish you all the, all the best.

Dr. Caroline Leaf.: Oh, thank you Ru You’re incredible too.

And thank you for all the help and everything you’ve put into our lives. I mean, you’ve really sewn a lot into our lives and we really appreciate, you’re amazing yourself. So thank you. And thank you for the great questions. I enjoyed this.

Rory: It was, it was magnificent. Magnificent. Alright buddy, we’ll talk soon.

Dr. Caroline Leaf.: Thank you.

Ep 604: From Homeless to 9 Figures: Stephen Scoggins on Alignment, Legacy, and the Real Reason Businesses Fail | Stephen Scoggins

Rory: [00:00:00] welcome back to the Influential Personal Brand Podcast. I’m about to introduce you to a friend of mine that I’ve known for years.

Someone that I love and adore. I admire and respect in real life as a real entrepreneur. And you know, when I use that term real entrepreneur, I don’t, I don’t dish it out lightly. It means somebody. Who knows what they’re doing in the world of business, not just the stuff that you see online, but offline real relationships.

Uh, Steven Scoggins is who you’re about to meet, and Steven was homeless. He went from homeless to nine figure entrepreneur. For those of you that are not math majors, nine figures means a hundred million dollars a year in annual revenue. Um, he was very, very close to that number, and he has had multiple exits in business.

His brand is all about being unstoppable, both in your personal, your professional life. He’s a spiritual giant. Um, someone that I’ve come to respect. We’ve done some really important projects together. And I’m honored to have him on the show and excited for you to learn from him today. Steven s [00:01:00] Goggins

Welcome bro.

Stephen: Love you bro. Man. Thanks for the intro, dude. I appreciate you guys. Uh, it’s been, it’s been a minute, man. It’s been a few years now.

Rory: Dude, we, we should we have to talk about the last thing we did together because Okay. People don’t know this. Uh, you know, ed Millet was something that, he was someone who brought us together and, and, uh, I don’t even know if Ed knows this, but.

You know, when Ed brought us in to help him with his book launch, there were a lot of people that helped. Mm-hmm. Uh, and you know, part of what was magical was Ed pre-sold 117,000 copies of his book. Yeah. Uh, and we were some of the team leading the strategy there. Mm-hmm. But what became legendary. Was, we sold 35,634 books.

I always ran up 36,000 books in a single day. Mm-hmm. And we sold those books at an event that we had at your building. Yeah. And, uh, it was your butt on the line for all the AV and the technical and, um. That was like the last time that we really did something. That was like a [00:02:00] few years ago already.

Stephen: Yeah.

Yeah. Dude, you know what? Tom really flies, man. But it was a, it was a great experience. I was telling somebody recently, I was like, I remember this time Rory calls me, he says, Hey, I got a client. I’m like, yeah, okay, cool. He’s like, we wanna do a book, a hybrid book launch. What do, what do you think about that?

I’m like, okay, cool. He’s like, how many, you know, how, how, how many, uh, seats can you hold? What can you do live? What can you do? Virtual virtually, all this kind of stuff. I was like, oh, I, you know, I can, I’m, I’m good. I can do 10,000 virtually, and I can do this. You’re like. Uh, I might need a little more than that.

We might

Rory: need more. I remember the conversation that we had where I said, uh, I said, Steven, do you have a generator? Yeah. And you were like, no, we don’t have a generator. Do you think we need one? I knew that was gonna come next. And I was like, I don’t know. Imagine what would happen though. Do your reputation if the power went out.

Yeah. At Ed Millet’s event in

Stephen: your building. Well, when Eric Thomas is on stage and, and, and you were like,

Rory: all right, let’s do it. I’m gonna get a generator.

Stephen: Yeah. And then sure enough, we had a tornado jump over the building. A tornado that jumped over the building

Rory: knocks the power out at the building. Yeah.

Eric Thomas is on stage. There’s however many [00:03:00] thousands watching the whole place goes black. Uh, 10 seconds though. Not even, not even 10 seconds. It was like less than three seconds. Generator comes right back. Kick, kick

Stephen: out. We, we didn’t even lose any live feed. That’s how quick it happened. The, yeah.

Rory: It was amazing, dude.

So the way that you supported Ed. The way that you, um, you did something, you made him feel so special the way you had, like, custom pillows made. Mm-hmm. You had like little, uh, you had a whole wall that was of, of his dad. Mm-hmm. You had decorated the whole place, which I later

Stephen: found out was his least favorite picture.

But he, he still loved it in, in the moment. He,

Rory: he did love it. Uh, Ed’s not like the most emotional guy, but the way that you showed up for him that day. Really made him feel special and he performed at his best and everybody did that day. It was a

Stephen: very special event.

Rory: Legend. Legendary. Yeah. But to see you go all in on somebody that you had, you know, no personal relationship with, um, and a lot of trust and faith in me and like the whole thing.

And I was like, Hey, I, I, I think we can make this happen. Yeah. Was extraordinary.

Stephen: Well, and I think that, you know, it’s funny, I’m gonna say one of your quotes ’cause I think [00:04:00] it’s, it’s, uh, it’s, it’s instrumental when it comes to relationships, uh, is when you say that the best time to build a relationship is before you need it.

And you and I have been building a relationship. We were trying to help a lot of the, the, uh, personal brands you guys were representing and helping out, trying to get their, their footage created and all this kind of stuff. I’ll never forget this, when we agent and I had the hair brainin idea to put a program together, and I think she flew you to North Carolina and you’re like.

Am I here again, kind of thing. I don’t know. It, it is just really cool because that, um, that culminated in such a special day and such a special event. I remember at the end of the event, you and I giving each other this massive big hug. It’s like, it, it, and Ed was happy, which is great. But I I, one thing I didn’t share with you was the weeks leading up to the event specifically.

Um, God was talking a lot to me about Ed. Hmm. A lot to me about Ed and, ’cause obviously Ed had a, already had a massive reputation, massive brand, was already doing incredible, incredible work and a massive, you know, max out Lie or Max Out podcast or Ed Mylet show, you know, max out [00:05:00] and, uh, he, you know, or he had a lot of tremendous amount of success in a lot of different ways.

Yeah. And I kept praying. I was like, well, you know, Rory brought this, this, uh, this opportunity to me. How can I be the best steward of this? Hmm. And part of the reason that we were able to have that picture of Edna’s dad up, um, was because God told me that he was doing something special inside of Ed.

Hmm.

Stephen: And he asked me to show up. Essentially, God asked me specifically to show up for Ed in a way that I was show up for my own father. Wow. So all the extra details, the color coded macaroons, the pillows, the I branded my entire building with

Rory: color coded macaroons. If you wanna know the secret to selling 35,000 books in one day, color coded macaroons.

That that’s what it takes. I think

Stephen: it’s a custom bobblehead you got, but that’s, that’s me’s uh, yeah, I mean, I, you know, it’s, I think it’s, I’ve tried to always have a servant’s heart in general. And when given an opportunity to serve and serve at scale, um, I ne I never knew if or when my, my personal brand would ever [00:06:00] really take off.

And it was the greatest access, um, to get to know some of the world’s best speakers and thought leaders on the planet. ’cause obviously I added to share the stage with ’em, get to know everybody’s human beings. Mm-hmm. Um, we had a zoom room. We kept having hiccups. I, I found out later that the zoom room was, uh, trying to force an update.

So Dean Gaza is in the back. He’s like, well just. Kick him outta this room, move him to this room. Now it happened to be the one that Ed’s my left wife was in. Yeah, of course. So that was fun. But, you know, but then having Marie Forlio and Jenna Kutcher sitting in my left and my right, and they’re like, Steven, you don’t understand this event’s going great.

Yeah.

Stephen: Like you’re putting a lot of extra pressure on yourself. But I, I felt a responsibility to not prove my worth or prove myself, but instead give the audience the best opportunity to have the most impactful message that they may ever hear in their life. And so much of what you guys do at Brand Builders is giving that opportunity to the voices that need to be heard by the masses, the mess, mission driven messengers, as you guys call ’em.

And I’d like to think I am one. You know, you are, you know, you are

Rory: you, you are the epitome [00:07:00] of what we want, have always wanted this business to be about. And the way that you served Ed that day. Um. And the way that you’ve done that for lots of other people, you’ve shown up big. And, and I love, ’cause I do believe wholeheartedly in that we, you know, it’s one of our mantras, build relationships before you need them.

Mm-hmm. But few people sell out fully to that. Like in the way that, yeah. The way that you do. Um. I wanna talk about building a real business. Sure. Um, not, not that building a personal brand isn’t a real business. It’s, it’s becoming, it’s becoming more and more real business. Mm-hmm. And there’s like a lot of dollars in sophistication coming into this space.

But, um, first tell us the story about. You know, this, this piece of your story of homeless, like wh how old were you and how real was this? Gosh. Like, oh, what, what, when? Take us back to then.

Stephen: Yeah. So, uh, you know, covered, covered this quite a bit, but, um, the greatest thing that I dis, lemme tell you what I discovered in that process, right.

So the homelessness for me came as a byproduct of pride and arrogance.

Rory: [00:08:00] Interesting.

Stephen: Okay. I wasn’t, I wasn’t, um, in a situation where. I was mentally ill. I wasn’t in a situation where I was intoxicated or dealing with drug issues, nothing like that. My first mentor of all time, and now I, keep in mind I dropped outta high school to help my family pay the bills.

My dad specifically, um, had no real college aspirations. I’ve been on my own since I was essentially 17, uh, living on my own, providing for myself and stuff like that. But when. I first, uh, over the course of the years of fucking 11 to 17, I would get to know a man by the name of Old Man Myrick. Steve Myrick was my first mentor of all sorts.

He’s my dad’s employer. Uh, he was a multimillionaire by, by all stretches and purposes. Okay. Uh, he was a home builder. My dad obviously worked for him, framing houses, and for whatever reason, he would pull me down off his framing crew on nights and weekends. As a child, basically 11 to 17, and talked to me about life and talked to me about business and talk to me about this and talk to me about that.

I later discovered that one of the reasons, one of the reasons, [00:09:00] uh, that he did that was because my grandfather, uh, who I used to refer to as, uh, ox, ’cause he was actually six foot two, which is kind of funny ’cause I’m not six months old. Um, you know, um, actually employed Steve.

Interesting. And because

Stephen: of alcoholism now my grandfather survived Pearl Harbor.

Right. So he is one of the few people in North Carolina, I think it was one of seven, um, that actually, you know, survived Pearl Harper, went back to North Carolina and tried to restart, was dealing with probably PTSD from not knowing what that is. Right? So self-medication became, um, alcohol and lo and behold, uh, Steve, Mike told me one time in, in the car, he is like, Hey, your grandfather would’ve been a multi multimillionaire.

Hmm.

Stephen: Had this one thing not gotten a hold of him.

Mm.

Stephen: And my granddad had a crazy integrity, crazy solid integrity. If he shook him, shaking your hand, it was like a contract. Those days I miss.

Yeah,

Stephen: I really do. Um, people would stand up for what, you know, stand up for those relationships. But I say all that to say that for some reason Steve would take me down with these framing crews, put me in this, his Jeep Grand Cherokee, ride me around the community and tell me [00:10:00] about real estate.

He would tell me about, um, I remember in fact one of his greatest quotes. He, he used to, I used to, I kind of still live by this day, is be willing to do today. And you saw this with Ed, my Lets event be willing to do today what others won’t. And you can have tomorrow what others don’t.

Yeah.

Stephen: Right. And sometimes we think having today what others won’t is money or resource.

What I’ve discovered is a lot of times it’s inner peace. Mm. Amen. It’s Amen. Immigration. It’s friendship, it’s relationship. You know, I would call Ed a friend now, you know, I think he would call me a friend as well. Right. And that became as a byproduct of just trying to show up. But in the grand scheme of things, uh, when you look at this homelessness journey, I was given a lot.

So Steve gave me a business of my own. I. Early on, very similar to the one that I exited. And, you know, he brought it, he provided all the equipment I needed, all the vehicles, he provided the back office resources Wow. To help me like handle accounting, all this kind of stuff. So he was like trying

Rory: to groom you?

He was legitimately

Stephen: trying to put me in business for myself. And, and part of

Rory: that was thinking like a payback pay forward to your, for your grandfather. Okay. Exactly. I would assume, I [00:11:00] mean, so how old were you

Stephen: uh, when that, when that took shape? I was probably around 18 and a half to 19 in some change.

Rory: Okay. So how do you go from that to like living on the

Stephen: streets again? It’s. It’s arrogant. So I go from making hardly any money, 11, 12 bucks an hour, like, you know, which was, you know, late nineties, you know, it wasn’t terrible money, but it wasn’t great money. Right. I was still very much blue collar work.

Right, sure. Which I, I admire still to this day. But, uh, in that grand scheme of things, when he comes through this, this opportunity, I go from making that kind of money to making close to six figures. So a hundred plus thousand dollars a year in annual income based on the work he was now, which is in late nineties.

Rory: Well, that’s a lot. Even that’s a lot of, especially young, early twenties, that’s a lot of money.

Stephen: Yep. And you know, you and I did a podcast a number of years ago, a virtual one, I think it was, we were coming outta COVID where you asked me, you know, why did, why didn’t you start speaking? And I, this has always hung with me.

’cause it had, if you go back and watch the podcast, like there’s a spiritual moment that happens between the two of us. And I realized that I, I think I articulated it, I was like, well, I think I was trying, and you see me on the [00:12:00] podcast, like, it’s like an epiphany. It’s like I was trying to decide if I was worthy of a voice.

Right. So almost everything that I’ve chased in my life or forced into existence has been a byproduct. They’re trying to choose or trying to prove my worth to other people. Wow. Now, keep in mind, if you look at my life nowadays, a lot of folks would say that I’ve, I have managed to come through a scenario where I’ll, I’ve already done a lot more than a lot of folks will do in a lifetime.

Rory: You know, I mean, you’ve sold, you’ve, you’ve had multiple exits. Mm-hmm. A, a recent one, which is your, yeah. Biggest, right? Yeah. Big roll up. Yeah. Was a big, big roll up and yeah. So you, you’ve definitely done what people dream of. Yeah. I mean the American dream.

Stephen: Yeah. But the homelessness journey came as a biproduct was making a bunch of money becoming very cocky, very arrogant.

I’ve got this figured out. I had something to prove to all the people who told me I was gonna be a failure when I dropped outta high school.

Yeah.

Stephen: That was, I think at the, at the end of the day, then you had a big chip on your shoulder, a big chip on my shoulder. My father came to me and lost his business, you know, a few years earlier and said, Hey, Skagen, get [00:13:00] ahead.

They get by like all these life lies, all these things that I think a lot of times that we’re all navigating and trying to work through. And I find that a lot of entrepreneurs share two things in common historically, especially early days. Uh, number one, they all think they should be further ahead than they actually are.

Hmm. Even today, I got, even today, I’m like, I should, that’s funny. I should be doing this, this, I told this

Rory: to someone, someone the other day, I was like. Yeah. I feel behind constantly. Mm-hmm. And I have felt that way since I was in eighth grade. Yeah. Like, I just, I always feel like I’m so far behind. Yeah.

Stephen: Yeah. Well, and I think that’s, you know, it’s into, before I, before I mention the next, uh, comment, uh, the second thing that we all deal with that we. All have in common is we’re all in some way, shape or form chasing an admiration or worth issue. Hmm. Sometimes it’s a lack of a parent that wasn’t there that could have affirmed us early on.

There’s a, there’s always a sense, there’s, there’s always an undercurrent. Right. And if I think’s one of the things why, the reasons I’m so adamant that hustle culture as we know it must die. Right? [00:14:00] So this, this, this ability to think, if you just take activity. If you just produce enough activity that great things are gonna happen.

What I’ve discovered is, and, and, we’ll, I’m sure we’ll get a chance to talk about this when I get you and AJ on, um, is, especially as it relates to monetizing personal brands, um, is most of them never monetize and they never monetize because of the same reason a lot of businesses struggle to get through the million dollar ceiling, which is they don’t have alignment.

Their values, their mission, their vision. Uh, it’s one thing brand builders has always been really, really good at. As you guys have been very aligned since I’ve was introduced to brand builders a number of years ago, even before, I mean, we were friends before that, but when, when you launched this business with aj and this inner alignment actually covers a lot of different things.

So a lot of, a lot of business owners, and I’m, and I know I’m, I’m, I’ve diverged a little bit from the homeless story, but I, I think I want to give a, a indication of what I learned. In that journey from there to there. ’cause I think I’m more grounded, more regulated, more authentic, more sincere, more centered than I’ve ever been in my life.

And it’s taken numerous [00:15:00] crushing. I call ’em life gates. So you go through, you go through a life gate, there’s a lot of tension, a lot of pressure. A lot of pressure. A lot of pressure. Go through the life gate. You come out the other side, right? Well, they say in business that, you know, there’s five major reasons that tend to alternate every year after year.

Why businesses fail, lack of funding, lack of leadership, product, market fit, you know, marketing. There’s the stuff right. And I’ve discovered this by osmosis, by just living my journey, by just living my life. I struggled as an entrepreneur at every single level. What was just getting started, whether it’s breaking through the million dollar ceiling, but $10 million ceiling, $50 million ceiling and beyond.

It came down to arrogance, ignorance, impatience, insecurity, and fear.

Hmm.

Stephen: When an entrepreneur can tap into understanding those emotional. Areas of their life and really begin to be self-aware of those areas.

Rory: What do you, you call these something, the five,

Stephen: I call ’em the five.

Rory: Constraints. Constraints,

Stephen: yeah.

’cause if you think about it, there’s, there’s things like, alright, you take your neck for example, like your neck for example. You’re breathing air, it feels great, you know, in through your nose, out through your [00:16:00] mouth, going down to your lungs, coming back out, right? But someone, the moment something goes to cons, constrict your throat or block your airway, right?

It, labor breathing, hardly you’re able to breathe. Possibility of passing out all this kind of stuff. A business is no different, right? In that if you can’t get your arms around making sure you, the lifeblood of your business, that your core values, your mission, your alignment, who you are as a leader, your personality traits, your own self-awareness.

If you can’t understand what’s driving you to make the decisions, you can’t really change the decisions you’re making. Right? So almost every dumb decision I’ve made, a few, I’ve been through embezzlement, I’ve been through all kinds of stuff in my business journey, came down to being emotionally dysregulated

Rory: Interesting.

I. And that started right away. Earlier it started by the

Stephen: trigger of the homeless journey, which is why I brought it up. It’s like that was the moment that you, you go back to a moment of scarcity, that if you can’t unlock that moment of scarcity and deal with it, you’ll prevent you from moving forward. So

Rory: let’s talk about these constraints.

So, well, uh, before we get to the constraints, I wanna come back to the hustle culture thing. [00:17:00] Sure. Because, uh. I know this has been like a pendulum where it was like, Hey, work hard and hustle and you know, Gary va, Gary Vaynerchuk, I remember reading in his book Crush It That said, you know, work until your eyeballs bleed.

Uh, and then, then, you know, there’s been this like anti hussle culture. Mm-hmm. And now it’s been like real trinity to be like anti hussle culture. Yep. And yet, I don’t know a single mm-hmm. Like, I don’t know, a single ultra successful person that has not hustled hard Yeah. For a long time. Yeah. Yeah. So you’re sitting here telling me mm-hmm.

Anti hussle culture as we know it today. Yeah. So I want you to bring some clarity to that conversation ’cause I know you’ve worked your butt off. Yeah. There’s, there’s, there’s no question about that. Yeah. So how do you find the balance between like. There’s an amount of hard work that goes into this. Sure.

But that’s not the same as hustle culture.

Stephen: Yeah. So if you take hustle culture in today’s terms, when I’m phrasing hustle culture, it’s not the inability to have diligence and focus. Right? It’s, it’s the ability to just take, take [00:18:00] random activity, wake up at 4:00 AM without a real clear path of why you’re waking at 4:00 AM You know, I, when I wake up that early, I’m, I’m going into a, you know, you and I talked about this downstairs a little bit, a journal session or a prayer meditation.

There’s, there’s an intent. Behind what I’m doing, and I’m finding a lot of entrepreneurs are just waking up and just jumping into their day. They’re not spending any time being more self-aware of themselves and digging into things. Okay, so when I say wholesale culture. I mean, hustling from the sheer aspect of just literally just doing, just

Rory: doing, like you’re disconnected from your purpose.

You’re, you’re completely, you’re

Stephen: disconnected from your purpose. You’re oftentimes disconnected from your family, and most nine times outta 10, you’re disconnected from yourself. Huh. And almost every s situation I’ve seen where you’ve got a thought leader, or not a thought leader, but a leader in general who’s got a, a business that hasn’t broken through the seven figure ceiling, let alone the eight figure ceiling.

In almost every case, it’s actually the leader. It’s actually the person. That has to change their behavior pattern and the thought patterns. Sometimes it’s limiting beliefs. You know, sometimes it’s the ability to develop [00:19:00] relationships. Sometimes it’s the ability to have a healthy lifestyle at home. You know, because you’re bringing that stuff with you in and out, right?

So what I’m saying is, is rather than just hustling for the sake of hustle,

right,

Stephen: just thinking because you’re having a lot of activity and because you’re on your phone all the time, you’re in your computer all the time, that somehow you’re making, you’re making your life, your business, and your family better, okay?

What I believe differently. Is, I believe alignment is the answer. Mm-hmm. I believe as soon as you get aligned, your income and everything else will follow. Mm-hmm. Right. Brand Builders Group is a perfect example of a business that, as long as I’ve ever known, it has been very aligned with what the mission was to begin with.

Mm. The term mission driven messengers has been there since, since I was introduced to brand builders. Yeah. You

Rory: were one of our first clients. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, early, early, early.

Stephen: Yeah. And it was because it was so clear, the methodology, even wealthy and well known, like I’m super excited about it ’cause it.

I know the secrets that are in that book. Well, I know, I know. I don’t even know all of them, but I know a lot of them. ’cause I’ve had a chance to spend time with you guys. And, and the reality is, is, is just that [00:20:00] the, that alignment has, has allowed your business to scale exponentially in a very short window of time.

Mm-hmm.

Stephen: Right. The, what you guys managed to do in a very short window of time will normally take companies 30, 40 years to do the same top line revenue amounts mm-hmm. And produce the same kind of results with consistent team member behavior and everything else.

Rory: Yeah. Which is ironic ’cause like. Revenue growth has never been our focus.

Mm-hmm. Like we say it all the time, like brand builders group was never started to be a profit maximization machine. Yep. It was started from the beginning Yeah. To be an impact maximization machine. Yeah. We don’t price our, our services. Mm-hmm. At the most we think we can charge. We charge, at the least we think we can charge.

Mm-hmm. And still provide the experience mm-hmm. And the career path for the people here. Yeah. Like, we have to pay our people well. Right. And, and. Um, you know, that is really interesting to kind of hear you talk that out because I, I think that really is true is it’s going, we’re not aiming at a number for a number sake.

We’re not working hard. But one, one of my favorite quotes of all time, and I don’t ever share this. Yeah. Oh, this is such a good quote. Let’s quotes, let’s it, this [00:21:00] is, this is from Times of Two Friends Get Together a philosopher, um, I don’t even know how to say the name. I think it’s Pan Pan Panjai. And it says, um.

When you’re inspired by some great purpose mm-hmm. Your mind transcends all limitations and new creative forces, dormant faculties come alive and you discover yourself to be a far greater person than you ever thought you could be. Yeah. Yeah. And it, and it’s like you’re, you’re not working for the sake of work.

It’s, you’re working out of alignment with the vision that you’re pursuing mm-hmm. Is kinda what I hear you saying.

Stephen: Yeah. And, and it’s, and it’s alignment with the vision you’re pursuing, but it’s also alignment with you like. If you took this gift, uh, and you and AJ took this gift that you guys have to make this kind of impact and this kind of specific niche, and you decided, you know what?

We’re not gonna do this anymore. We’re gonna, we’re gonna become lawyers.

Mm.

Stephen: You’ll be completely out of alignment. It’ll be very difficult to make money. You’ll be unfulfilled, you’ll be unhappy, you won’t be happy with the results. Interesting. You know, so it’s, it’s like even

Rory: though the, the, the principles of [00:22:00] operating a service-based business theoretically are the same, it’s just not.

It’s not like your calling, it’s not what God’s created you to do. Yeah. It’s, it’s the vehicle.

Stephen: Right. So, uh, you know what, one of the, one of the epiphanies I had after we did the event with Ed was, you know, ed is a, he’s a phenom when it comes to speaking. Yeah. Like, I don’t know anybody like him.

Rory: He’s a world changer.

I mean, he’s anointed and like Exactly. I

Stephen: would, I would agree with that a hundred percent. And on top of that, when we were able to partner with him for his endeavor and then partner together on other endeavors, but we were able to partner with. Every life that he spoke into, every tear that was cried that we could see, we couldn’t see.

Every person that bought a book, didn’t buy a book, went to, went to the um, the private retreat when in Palm Springs after that. Yeah. Or watch the podcasters. Watch the little sizzle clip from Max out live, or can go online right now. Watch the recording version of Max Out Live today. All of these different lives have been touched and because we were both operating in alignment with our unique skill [00:23:00] sets to aid someone else.

Who has their own mission and stuff like that. We play, we get to play an active role in the kingdom building, if you will. That happened there. Yeah. So a and we gotta,

Rory: we gotta give a shout out to Daniel and to Pete. Oh. Because it was, dude, it was an all, it was an Allstar team of people coming together.

Yeah. And then, you know, obviously it was Ed like, but to your point, it’s like everyone ral, there were so many people rallying. It was a

Stephen: special event

Rory: behind Ed’s leadership and like we all get to have a piece of the impact that, that Ed has made.

Stephen: Yeah. So you take alignment. And you take focused intensity.

So focused intensity is different than hustle to me.

Rory: Okay. To

Stephen: me, hustle can can be described as nervous energy.

Rory: Yeah. ’cause this is my question is what’s the difference between hustle, culture and proper hard work? Mm-hmm. And that’s what you’re saying right now?

Stephen: Yeah. Priorities. So when you’re able to articulate what your number one priority is, you can now set the dominoes up in your favor.

Okay. Again, I’m teaching you, I’m, I’m, I’m sharing things that you already know.

Rory: No, but what’s the term that you set out? Like intentional. Intentional or [00:24:00] focused Intensity. Focused intensity.

Stephen: Yeah, focused intensity. So I, um, as, as you know, I travel and speak. Um, I’m looking up, hoping to get more out there.

This year I took a year and a half off after the exit to, yeah, to recalibrate and whatnot. Um, but I did an event, um, it was probably three years ago and I started, it was the first time I ever brought some of my construction background on stage. So I come out stage, I got a nice big cinder block, right?

It’s four inches thick, eight inches or eight inches wide, 12 inches deep. It’s cool. Yeah, it feels tough. Yeah, it was tough. And I come out and I’ve got my, my tool belt on my shoulder. ’cause you know, I started, you know, I started the company that I exited with a nail and a hammer basically. Right?

Rory: I love this.

Stephen: And so I come out on stage. I’ve got the thing on my, I mean, I’m talking about the, you know, you it, the tools you use are, you know, very helpful. I said, but most people don’t understand that focused intensity is what makes you unstoppable.

Mm.

Stephen: Right. So I take the hammer out and I’m starting to like, I’m starting to hit the, the, the block in different areas on the block, right?

And sure there’s little chips flying off and little sparks and whatever. [00:25:00] And I was like, but I’m, I’m, I’m not breaking through it. It reminds me a lot of your She hands wall. She hands

wall,

Stephen: right?

Yeah.

Stephen: And. It’s really interesting because Shehan Wall is a direct representation of this brick. I hit this block three times in the same exact 0.3 times, and the thing shatters into Wow.

Right. And to me that’s the principle focused intensity. You, you and AJ teach this with Brand Builders Group as when it comes to a. In order for you to really make an impact, we have to help you understand what your niche is, so you become notable for it. Right? It’s the same, that same principle applies to every business.

It may not even be coming notable. It’s just like, okay, what is the number one thing I need to focus on right now? Mm-hmm. To get the greatest lift.

Mm-hmm.

Stephen: And my experience has been six figure entrepreneurs aren’t thinking that way. Seven figure entrepreneurs oftentimes will stumble into it.

Mm.

Stephen: Right. But then when they could go from seven to eight, they don’t realize.

From seven, you’re all about earning and trying to, and trying to get the thing like really kinda established. And eight, it’s all about compounding. You know, one of the principles I learned from you and take the stairs is compounding your time. Mm-hmm. Like for every hour [00:26:00] that I devote to a podcast, I’m hoping to pick up four hours of impact or four hours of productivity, or the, that’s the focused intensity approach, right?

So it’s like wake up on purpose. If you wanna wake up at 4:00 AM great. Wake up at 4:00 AM If you wanna wake up at six, wake up at six. But be intentional about it.

Rory: I love what you said there about see the, what’s the difference between a seven figure entrepreneur and an eight figure entrepreneur? Mm-hmm.

And I think that’s where the biggest leap happens, because you can get to seven figures. Mm-hmm. Even multi seven figures. Mm-hmm. Through sheer hustle. Through Yeah. Just red line, hard work. Yeah. No, quit. Do it all yourself. Figure it all out. But you can’t get to eight figures like that. Mm-hmm. No, you can’t.

You can’t grow like no business will outgrow the strength of its systems. Mm-hmm. The only way to get to eight figures or the leader is you have to develop the people, develop the processes, and develop the product. And like, and, and it’s namely the leader. Mm-hmm. Right. To go, what, what got you to multi seven figures as a producer won’t [00:27:00] get you to eight figures.

Yeah. As a leader. Yeah. You have to become a different person. Yeah. And so, and there’s so few eight. Figure personal brands, and I think that’s part of it. Mm-hmm. Is going, you can, you can build a multi seven figure business as a personal brand, like through your charisma. Mm-hmm. And you’re amazing. But like to get to eight figures, you have to have people and process and systems.

And it’s almost counterintuitive to a lot of personal brands who are just like. You, you know, they’re kind of flying on charisma. Yeah. Um, but you have to become a real leader to get to eight figures.

Stephen: Yeah. And you also have to understand business basics. So, you know, I, I believe there’s five stages of a business for five seasons.

You got the start up phase, right. We’ve, you and I have been there. Um, millions of other entrepreneurs have been there. Yep.

Rory: Exciting. But disorganized, very disorganized. You’re,

Stephen: you’re, you know, you’re taking advantage of every opportunity. You’re weighing risk later. A lot of times, you know, you’re. You, you very much are in hustle, right?

Yeah. You’re just trying to make something happen, right? Surviving. I always de

Rory: I describe this, that phase as you’re being chased by a bear, and it’s like, and [00:28:00] people are like, your shoe’s untied. Yeah. And you’re like, but you’re in startup mode. Like, it doesn’t matter. Like your shoes untied, your pants are half fallen off.

Like you don’t, you cannot stop to Yeah. You have to. You’re just running like you’re being chased by a bear. Yeah. Like hopefully you get ahead to where you can stop and tie your shoe. But like the survival mode of the startup is you’re just, it’s a flat out sprint. So I, I, I agree with you. Yeah. That’s like straight up hustle.

Yeah. What, what’s after that

Stephen: testing? Right? So now you got something that’s working. Um, I got, I was very fortunate. I’ve experienced some of this when we got introduced with Brand Builders Group a number of years ago. Yeah. Because it was like COVID Right. Had just happened and we’re like doing live events on Zoom and.

And, and just being, I call it pivot to it becomes possible. Like you just, you’re pivoting, but you’re, oh,

Rory: wait, wait, wait. Say that again?

Stephen: Pivot to what becomes possible.

Rory: Pivot to what becomes possible.

Stephen: Yeah. Because in the testing phase, you’re, you’re seeing things that work, you’re seeing things that don’t work.

Yeah. You’re having to come up with new ways that things that are working. Like there’s, there’s a, it’s a bit, it’s less, I would call it less of being chased by a bear.

Mm-hmm. [00:29:00]

Stephen: And more of like, Hey, I need to go ahead and like plant a garden. Like, it’s much more of like seeing what grows in different areas.

Yeah.

Rory: Well, so it’s interesting as you’re talking, I love that. I’ve never heard you say that before. Pivot. Mm-hmm. Pivot until it becomes possible. Until it becomes possible. What it really seems to me is almost like you’re like in a maze or something. Mm-hmm. Or like you’re getting hit, you’re getting slapped in the face.

You’re like, this doesn’t work. Go this way. Yeah. And you’re just like, oh, like pinball. You’re just kinda like getting bounced around until you, but you kind of like mm-hmm. It’s like, just take the beating. Yeah. And you’ll find your way. Yeah. Kind of a thing. Well, and I

Stephen: think, and I think, again, I think it’s, to me, it’s so important to understand what season of business that you’re in, because you can give yourself grace.

Amen. People present in the moment, you’re less than patient. You’re, you’re not, definitely not on the arrogant side. You’re more open to being teachable, which helps you overcome the, the side of being, you know, I call it ignorance. It’s like you don’t know what you don’t know, and you don’t know where to find what you don’t know.

Right. You’re gonna, you’re gonna discover these different things along the way, but, and in the testing phase, once you’re done with the testing phase, you’re okay. You’ve got something that’s working. [00:30:00] It’s working. I got something here. I can build a business. Okay, now is the next phase, which is the investing phase.

Okay? What do I invest in investing? Yep. Do I invest in team? Do I invest in leadership? Huh? Do I invest in process or systems or CRM or um, gosh, your accounting software or like, there’s all these different tools that ultimately will make your life easier. Right. But you still have to get through the window.

Rory: That’s a tough phase, the investing phase. ’cause it’s, it’s like your eyes are open to all the things you need. Mm-hmm. But you can’t afford them. Mm-hmm. You can’t afford all of them Priorities. Yeah. You can’t afford, it’s like, oh man, we need a CFO. It’s like, I can’t afford A CFO. Like, oh, we need another sales person.

It’s like, I can’t, you know, we need better microphones, we need better cameras. We need a building. We need, we need a new CRM. And it’s just like. Because you’re still kind of being chased by the bear. Mm-hmm. But like, like you have a little bit of distance. Yeah. But you don’t have, you can’t stop to do all the things.

Yeah. So you gotta place your bets. Mm-hmm. You place your bets there. That’s good.

Stephen: Yeah. I mean, and, and it, and it helps. Like, you, you, you get really. Clear on, okay, we’re gonna invest in [00:31:00] this and maybe six months from now we can invest in the next thing or whatever.

Rory: Yep.

Stephen: Um, I’ve heard terms, I think, I think it’s one of, uh, Dave’s terms as fast as cash build your business or as fast as cash.

Mm. Buildings, technology, whatever. Yeah. Um, I agree with that. All the businesses that I’ve owned are all debt free in general. I never borrow money. That’s good. Um, it’s, I slowly build, it’s slower, but in more stable. I weathered COVID, I weathered, excuse me, the pandemic, you know, I weathered like these different, the e you know, embezzlement, all these different things because.

I didn’t have this exponential risk, right? Once you get past the investing phase, now you’re in a scaling phase, which is, this is phase four. Phase four, scaling.

Rory: Scaling,

Stephen: right? You can’t scale what? You can’t duplicate or replicate, and you darn sure can’t scale dysfunction.

Rory: Ha. That’s good. Yeah. You cannot,

Stephen: dysfunction to me is built from the energy of hustle.

Rory: Which is usually connected to the entrepreneur, like Exactly, because what’s

Stephen: happening is, is they’re not responding constantly. They’re reacting constantly. Okay. So therefore, the thing that they’re trying [00:32:00] to solve in the moment, in the time without taking a moment to breathe, make a data-driven decision, is gonna cause them four more problems.

And then they wonder why they’re constantly putting out fires.

Rory: Here’s a, here is the most sobering thought as an entrepreneur to me, that I’ve ever had to come to grips with.

Mm-hmm.

Rory: Our business is a reflection of me. Mm-hmm. Like our business is a reflection of my internal like thoughts. Yeah, exactly. So it’s like, if my business is chaos, it’s ’cause I’m chaotic.

Mm-hmm. Like if, if we’re helter skelter, da da da da da. Mm-hmm. And you go like, I don’t know how literally true it is, but gosh, it, I think it’s pretty literally true. Yeah. Yeah. And you go everything that drives you nuts about your business. Is an external reflection of your internal paradigm and mindset.

Yeah. Of like what’s going on in your own head a thousand percent.

Stephen: And again, that’s why I’m, I’m, I guess I’m trying to be a bit of an evangelist of, of discovering alignment. Like alignment, not regardless of your faith, [00:33:00] belief, like we’re, we’re alignment with the divine, alignment with yourself, making peace with your past.

Like a lot of my reactions as a business owner. How I treated people even early days, was a byproduct of what I hadn’t dealt with on my inside.

Rory: Like in a personal life. Yeah. Like stuff happened to you when you were seven, seven years old and like now all of a sudden that’s affecting your system. Yeah. I mean, and the reality

Stephen: is that it’s, it’s, it’s real stuff.

I’m a, I’m a big believer in grounding now I’m a big believer in regulat, like help being, having healthy methodologies is regulating prayer. Meditation are part of my, part of my lifestyle. Active work, lifestyle, workout. Um, my checking, making sure my hormone levels are good. I’m 49 years old, man, you know, so.

Things are off from when I was 20 something, right? Or different, right? Um, all this kind of stuff. And then if you can get all that done and you get the scaling situated, now you can go to what I, the fifth phase is either operate or sell. Now the one big mistake operate or sell. Yeah.

Rory: Okay. So this, I couldn’t figure out a way to

Stephen: blend the words together.

So yeah, it’s operate or sell. ’cause when you have choice, now the one big mistake that I think we all make as business owners is we [00:34:00] don’t build our businesses to sell.

Mm.

Stephen: So if you build your business to sell, you’re gonna be far more focused on the efficiencies, the processes, the systems, the people, all those types of things, to be super clear on actually building an actual organization mm-hmm.

If you’re building it solely to operate it, then it’s gonna be built around you, which means you’re never gonna have the lifestyle and freedom that you ultimately want.

Rory: Right. Yeah. I, I’ve, I heard it said once that like a business worth selling looks a lot like a business worth keeping. Mm-hmm. Is to go.

The best business you can build is one that theoretically would operate without you. Yeah. Because that’s the one that’s most valuable to sell. Mm-hmm. It’s also the most valuable to keep. Yeah. It’s like, well, if the business operates without me, why wouldn’t I keep it? Right? Yeah. It’s like if I built a, if I created a vending machine that was throwing off a hundred thousand dollars a year mm-hmm.

I would just keep operating it. Yeah. Or I or somebody would buy it. ’cause it’s a very successful vending machine. Yeah. It’s sort of like how you have to think of like any bi any business. Yeah. So, and did you

Stephen: always [00:35:00] think of your business that way? I did not. I didn’t start thinking about how I built my business until I had to go back and rebuild part of it.

Rory: Ah. It

Stephen: cost me three years of the transitions. Lemme let me talk about something else real fast because you just brought it up. It’s like, okay, if you build a business that’s good enough to, to sell, it’s also good enough to keep okay with that theology. Well, how do you know when it’s the right time to sell?

Yeah. Okay. So this is a question I’d faced. Sure. Good question. Uh, we had aspirations to take that company to 150 plus million dollars. Okay. How invested was I going to be in doing my part? Personal growth, otherwise learning new systems, scaling piece, how much, how aligned was it with who I was and who I’d already become?

Did that company in order for it to have the best chance at that next level is the best person at the helm me. And given the fact that I love to do other things in a different way, take the knowledge and wisdom that I’ve already done. So I love the thought leadership world. I like what it does for [00:36:00] people.

Right. I love real estate. I like, I like passive income. Okay. I also like doing live events for how, because live events change my life along the way.

Mm-hmm.

Stephen: Right. So you, you be, you discover that you’re going to evolve and change as a human being and how you feel 10 years or now might feel different 10 years from now.

Right. So the question I had to ask myself is, does this business, this industry still light me up or is it sucking my soul from me?

Mm-hmm.

Stephen: Even though, regardless of how well it’s built, even when I had, it really built really well, very little problems and breakdowns in systems. We were probably about 70 million I think, at that point, where things are be humming along.

Oh, wow. Um, where I kind of had what you talked about, which is actually when I started getting courted, which had been thinking about it. Um, and then we went through another growth spurt. Right outta 2021, the, the market in the, the construction business, which was what type of company it was, was like prices went up, everything went up, volume went up.

’cause it was, we were coming outta the pandemic and all of a sudden there was this [00:37:00] massive need for housing and all this kinda stuff. But the question I asked myself was, do I really wanna do this? Mm-hmm. And if I was honest with myself, and this is what I wanna encourage your listeners and viewers to do, is be honest with yourself.

Right. If you can say right now that if you’re honest with yourself that you’re not the person to lead the charge, the best thing you can actually do is step aside. Mm-hmm. Now, step aside with a strategy. Continue showing up for two or three years while you get everything in place to make sure that business isn’t dependent on you, and then obviously you can then pursue it that way.

Rory: And what I heard you say that I think is different than what I have literal words you said is it’s not necessarily am I the best person to lead this, it’s do I want to lead this? Yes. Yeah. That’s a really powerful question is to go, when’s when’s the right time to sell? As if you go, if I’m hearing you right.

Yeah. It’s like if I ask myself, do I, am I still passionate about leading this? Mm-hmm. And you’re saying if the answer to that question ever [00:38:00] shifts from yes to no mm-hmm. Then that’s the point. You go, great. Yeah. Create a, create a plan to step aside as the leader. Yeah. And the good is, that’s really good, Steve.

I’ve never heard anyone say it so clearly.

Stephen: Thank you, brother. Yeah. Um. It’s, I think it’s just really important. I, I believe. Alright, so Billy Graham said before he passed away that one of the greatest moves of God is gonna come in the house of business. Amen. Yep. Okay. He said that right. And I’m seeing that Totally.

’cause you spend most of your time at workplace.

Rory: Yep.

Stephen: Right? So if you’re leading from an incongruent place on unaligned place, then your team to your point, is gonna be experienced an unaligned piece. Right. So I say all that to say that. I feel like part of the initiatives that need to take place in the, in the, in the marketplace right now for is for every single entrepreneur to literally evaluate themselves with radical honesty.

No condemnation, no guilt, no shame, just observation. If I took myself out of the picture and I just looked at everything like as if it was a movie. Mm-hmm. Okay. What would make, what would make the Hero’s [00:39:00] journey thrive? Right. And in many cases it is stepping aside. Now you, when you step as when, if you, you choose to step aside, you’re choosing to step aside with a roadmap in mind.

Not you’re just gonna throw in the, you’re just gonna throw the keys to everybody and hurt people out the door.

Mm-hmm.

Stephen: Right? It’s more lines. Okay, well I realize that I, internally, I don’t, I don’t feel great. This is not my thing. Okay, great. Then spend the next two or three years really focused intently.

On actually making sure you’re setting the business up to be sold.

Yeah,

Stephen: right. Because that was the one big thing that I didn’t do. I got all the way I was getting courted and then all of a sudden they were like, they would bring up the things, not in due diligence, but there’s different phases when you put your business out there.

Rory: Sure.

Stephen: And by the

Rory: way, like, it’s like you don’t wanna wait until that moment to go, oh, now I should think about building this to sell. It’s like it want, yeah. You want it to be at that, at that at that point. You know, and for, and like for us at Brand Builders Group. We, we never started this to sell it. And y you know, uh,

Stephen: what happens when Rory and AJ no longer exist?

Rory: Right. See, we’ve already been [00:40:00] courted to, to, by mm-hmm. People to, to, to buy it. Yeah. Because of just the database alone of like the cell phone numbers of the people that are our clients is like, yeah. Where, where’s a lot of money? Yeah. Uh, the, the, but it’s. It’s the, the thing for us is to go, what? What happens when something happens to us?

Yeah. Right. And going like, okay, if this is really God’s company, if we’re really hearing God say, help my people be heard. Mm-hmm. And it’s like. What happens? Yeah. Something happens to us. Whether that’s tomorrow or if it’s a hundred years, like you’ve gotta think about that now. Yeah. Yeah. So even if, even if you’re like, this is my life’s work and this is my passion and my calling it, it, it is all those things for us.

Yeah. But it’s like even more so to go like, great, this is all gonna die when you die. Mm-hmm. If you don’t set up. Yeah. A business, a real business to operate without you. Yeah.

Stephen: Yeah. And so the only reason why I think it’s important because, um, when you look at personal brands in general, right? You, you mentioned you can, you can get to a certain extent just on charisma.

Yeah. Right? [00:41:00] Well, you, you typically have a family in play, extended family, family at the home or whatever, that will, would be impacted in the event that you were no longer here or there to produce. Okay. Um, which is another reason why I’m. Almost everything that I think about nowadays is about how do I create a legacy, not a legacy that brags about me, but a legacy that I’m proud of because it, it basically helps others be free.

Mm-hmm.

Stephen: Right. So and so as, as I’ve been thinking about this more and more, um, I realized I need to be the most aligned, most grounded, most regulated, most just present, Stephen, I can be. I don’t need to be trapped in trying to. Make things happen or force things to happen. I need to actually open my hands and actually say, okay, God, what do you want me to do?

Rory: What were the five constraints against the five arrogance constraints? Again, a arrogance.

Stephen: Ignorance.

Rory: Ignorance. Im patience. Mm. Impatience,

Stephen: insecurity and fear.

Rory: Yeah. So basically it’s like, I, I don’t want to be any of those five,

Stephen: [00:42:00] basically. And if you, if you’ll do just some daily basic work, even somatic work, I mean, I’ve done a lot of somatic work the last two years and it’s been, it’s worked wonders.

I actually had more success with that than I did with traditional therapy models. Hmm. Um. Let me, lemme come back to something real fast. So you’ve got the five constraints, essentially you have five seasons, and then well, how do you evolve? Okay, so every business has a life cycle. So zero to 1 million, 1 million to 10.

10 to 50 is typically about the next big jump. 50 to a hundred is the next big jump from what I’ve seen. Okay. Well, how do you evolve? Well, I’ve been, so, I’ve been thinking about this for the last probably two years. Okay. What is, what is, what is it that has to be retooled and looked at continually, regularly on a regular basis?

And what I’ve discovered is there’s actually yet another five, right? I call ’em the five drivers. Now, these drivers are in every business. Doesn’t matter what industry, doesn’t matter what you’re trying to build. Um, but [00:43:00] essentially the drivers are very simply ideation. So that is you creating the business out of thin air.

Okay. Mission, vision, core values, what you stand for, what you stand against, roles, responsibilities, key team impact you want to make, how you plan to make it, how you plan to measure it. You know, all those kind of fall in the ideation bucket. Brand goes in the ideation bucket. Uh, you know, ideal client persona goes in the ideation bucket.

Like it’s really the, the, the what and why is this business gonna exist? And once that’s dialed in, then you have, what’s something that you’re, you and your team have always been really exceptional at, which is sales.

Hmm.

Stephen: Okay, so how, what, when, where, or why are we gonna sell? You know, are we gonna sell books?

Are we gonna sell podcasts or endorsements or a product, A good or service? Okay, well, well, now we know what we’re gonna sell. Okay. Well, is it gonna go to door to door? Is it gonna go through phone call? Is it gonna go through a website? Like, like, you know, I call it who, what, when, where like, it’s like, you know, just kinda like really thinking through your business, saying, okay, who, what, when, where?

Right. Well, then you go to fulfillment. Okay, well, how you gonna deliver that product with [00:44:00] excellence? Right? That adds to your reputation. Long time. Mm-hmm. Long term. Right. And then helps you build in and stuff like that. Which is another reason I love brand builders. I just like how I, like how you guys build.

Um, which is why I call my podcast build, I think. ’cause I, I like how things are built, um, built, you know, and then the fifth one or the fourth one gets a lot of people in trouble, which is finance. Mm-hmm. Cash comes in, you have no idea how it’s coming in. Have no idea how it’s going out. Yeah. Cash flow kills businesses left and right.

It’s the, the, it’s funny that that particular cog in the wheel when I look at it. Uh, was a major cog for me. That’s how I got in. That’s why, how I was able to, with, I’ll say how I was able to, um, how uh, suspected embezzlement happened. ’cause I have to put air quotes around it. Um, ’cause I couldn’t read my own numbers.

I wasn’t tracking my own numbers, but yet other people in the business could. Right. So you open yourself up to that. I’ve seen people, um, do really great at sales, do really great at fulfillment, bring a lot of money in. [00:45:00] And have a lot of money go out ’cause they’re not watching their expenses. Mm-hmm. You know, I was, uh, talking to Sean, it doesn’t matter how

Rory: much you make you mm-hmm.

You can always outspend it like

Stephen: Yeah. Well I even told I was, I was on another, uh, show not long ago and one of the things we talked about was like, okay, what’s the biggest one of the biggest lessons you learned? I said, well, if you wanna increase your profit was a, was run profit also, the biggest thing you knew was take a fine tooth comb to go back through your business on your expenses.

Hmm.

Stephen: I picked up 3% margin. And about a 45 day window, which added about $3 million cash to the bottom line. Wow. Because of just going back and double checking expenses. Now, you don’t do that until you’re pressed to do that. ’cause when things are good, you get sloppy. What I’m saying is, is be intentionally focused.

Be aligned. Right. Make sure you’re, you’re finance matters are aligned in a healthy way as well. If you get all of those dialed in, then it’s about raving fan retention. Right. Mm-hmm. What types of, uh, processes can you put in play of make sure your customer doesn’t wanna buy anywhere else? Because a lot of builder, a lot of businesses, they’ll have a one-time transaction.[00:46:00]

Well, you’ve, I just, with me, you’ve already created repeat, uh, uh, like recurring revenue. Recurring revenue, or a lifetime value, or, you know, any of these different terms that honestly help you scale. You can’t scale a business on a one time transaction.

Mm-hmm.

Stephen: You can’t. Right. So I say all those different fives, because to me they go like a cog.

Right. So I wanna constantly be checking where am I at, where am I at emotionally with my arrogance, my impatience, and so on and so forth. I wanna see what’s kind of, what season of business I’m in, and then I want to take those five drivers and I wanna overlay that over both of those and say, okay, uh, every 18 months I use those five drivers.

Say, okay, lemme go back through ideation. What’s changed in my business? What’s pivoting? You guys have just started a, a, a wonderful publishing, uh, side of your, your arm that I’m super excited about, right? Like, that’s a, that’s a pivot that wasn’t there three years ago.

Rory: Yeah, technically it’s a new, a new business.

We had to separate it ’cause it it grew really fast. Yeah. So I think we, we hit like 5 million in revenue like the third year. Oh, that’s amazing. So it, it’s now a separate entity and has its own team. ’cause [00:47:00] it, but, but yeah, it’s, it was a new, it was the, it’s the same journey all over again. Yeah. And it’s, it’s like you follow the same.

The same stages we’re talking about. Yeah. I

Stephen: mean, successful entrepreneurs that I’m seeing yourself and several other friends that we have, and not just this industry but other industries, they have innately done this. They’re innately looking at business and reevaluating their business and their teams and their leadership and stuff on a regular basis.

Rory: Well, and coming back to, to the theme that we were talking about earlier in terms of service, like we’re not thinking about how can we get more rich. Mm-hmm. We’re thinking about how can we help our customers succeed faster? Mm-hmm. And that. Guides the path. It illuminates the path. Mm-hmm. It says like, oh, okay, this is the next move.

Yeah. Like, this is the next thing, this is the next thing you gotta, you gotta fix. Mm-hmm. Um, and you know, I think profit is a byproduct of service done well, service done well. Mm-hmm. And, uh, that is where I feel like, you know, we, we, alignment is really the [00:48:00] driver of what we do. Yeah. Um. You know, and I think one great thing about making a lot of money mm-hmm.

Is that you realize, you get to a point where you go, oh yeah, money doesn’t really get me there. Because, because, because when you’re, when you’re like broke or when you’re coming up through the ranks, people always say, you know, money doesn’t buy you happiness. Mm-hmm. And, and you’re, and you’re like, oh, that’s cute.

But like, I’d like to try. I like, I’d love to, I’d love to. I’ve learned that lesson harder. I’d like to prove this. That’s really it. Right. And, and then, and then there is a point where you go, okay, like. I’ve had enough things you, you know, um, that I realized that’s, that’s really not the thing that is, gives us the most satisfaction.

Yeah. Um, same thing about awards and achievement, right? Mm-hmm. Like I remember becoming a New York Times bestselling author, was this, it was like such a focus. Mm-hmm. Like you talk about that focused intensity. Yeah. It was such a focus and in, in many ways it’s sort of a shallow way to live your life. To go, I’m gonna like conquer this thing.[00:49:00]

But the powerful part of it was that once I got that mm-hmm. It really put that to bed for me. Yeah. Where it was like, I’m no longer after a title to, to, to, to prove my worth. Mm-hmm. I can legit like let go. Yeah. And just, just be focused on service. Yeah. And that’s a really, that’s a really great, beautiful part of like achieving some of those things.

Stephen: Yeah. And you know, again, I, I was, um, sharing this again with somebody else ’cause we, you know, there’s a, a bit of a. It’s not a juxtaposition. I dunno why that word stuck in my head for recently, but there’s this element of wealth being evil sometimes.

Mm-hmm.

Stephen: Um, and I remember hearing that growing up a lot.

It’s like the rich people were evil, but then I noticed that we were always borrowing money from people that had the money to borrow from.

Mm-hmm.

Stephen: I said, well, okay, but they’re not evil. The people I know that are doing this aren’t evil. In fact, they’re very generous or actively giving and, and stuff like that.

So I’m a big believer in creating overflow,

right? Yeah. [00:50:00]

Stephen: And if you serve well, you’ll profit well. If you profit well, you can overflow well.

Rory: Yes.

Stephen: Right? And you might do it in church, you might do it on the, you know, a person passing on the street, and there’s any number of ways that you can do that, you know.

But at, at the end of the day, uh, one of the things that I’m really adamant about is making sure that what you’re doing matters. Like it really matters. So I’ll give you an example I’ll share with you, I think downstairs that, you know, I, I had exited right, and we did well enough where I can choose to do what I wanna do with my time, talent, and resources.

That’s amazing. Okay. So not necessarily f money, it’s like, you know, where it’s like the world, you know, whatever. We, I’ve got a couple friends that did quite well and buying jets and islands and whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which ironically is a, is a thing, uh, I’ll come back to that in a second. And. In a home, beautiful home, can travel, do all the things right.

And yet I was my least happy, my least fulfilled to contrast that to showing up. [00:51:00] Um, and we’ll go back to Ed’s event for just a minute. Going back to Ed’s event and showing up at that event, dude, I was lit up.

Mm-hmm.

Stephen: Because I knew I was part of something bigger. Mm-hmm. And it was just, it was just, so every time I’m in an act of service, I also feel like I’m in an act of obedience with the divine.

And because I’m in an act of obedience with a divine, it’s almost like I get supercharged downloads of love. Like, so the inner sort, the fulfillment that I’m chasing is not external. It’s all internal. Okay. Now take that same mindset shift. Right? I also realize that I don’t have a problem with wealth. I don’t have a problem with people having things.

I don’t have a problem that I have some things. What I would have a problem is if those things had me. I think at the end of the day is, is ultimately what I’m concerned about, right? I wanna be seen for service and who I am as an authentic human, not for what people may or may not, but a gain for me or things of that nature.

And I feel like I’m starting to see that be a bit more of a culture change.

Mm-hmm.

Stephen: Right? The relationships that I’m [00:52:00] trying to build, uh, with people, uh, I’m trying to make sure they’re real relationships, like they’re real friendships. Like Rory, you call me and say, Hey dude, I got a flat tire. Yeah, right.

And I left my wallet at the building

Rory: and, you know, I’m not capable of changing no flat tire. That’s mama’s boy not getting, I’m not getting out no crank and like getting on my knees and like, I, I need help.

Stephen: But if you made the phone call, I’d show up. You know, and I’m, you know, those are the sincere relationships.

Ep 603: How to Build a Public Seminar Business with Tyler Devereaux

Rory: [00:00:00] I’m talking with a friend today and I’m talking with a friend about a conversation that we would normally have unrecorded off scripted, and we started having this conversation a couple months ago and I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. We need to record this as a podcast. This is so good. This will be so helpful.

And so that’s what we’re doing today. So you’re about to meet my buddy Tyler Devereux. Uh, he’s a BBG client, a good friend of mine. Uh, I’ve really come to love and, and, uh, get to know this guy. Uh, I spoken at his event and he is an amazing, uh, speaker himself and we’re talking about putting on events. So Tyler is a keynote speaker.

He’s the bestselling author. He has shared the stage with like many of the legends of the day, ed Millet, Eric Thomas, inky Johnson, Jim Quick, Jamie Kern, Lima, David Goggins. I had the opportunity to speak at his event recently. I. And, um, it’s, it’s incredible. It’s, it’s amazing to see. So he’s [00:01:00] also a nine figure founder of, um, a business, the CEO of Nalo Capital and the multifamily mindset.

So basically they teach investing and, uh, particularly in like multifamily units and things. Um, and he owns a lot of properties in that helps teach people how to do that business. But the reason I invited him on the show specifically was because. Of his business model. And what they do is the classic public seminar model.

So he is filling his own rooms, selling his own tickets, um, and uh, and bringing, he’s the one bringing in speakers and speaking on his own stages. And so he’s in control of his own destiny. And that is something that we really love. And if you don’t know this part of our story, this is exactly how AJ and I started.

Um, we weren’t in investing, but we were doing sales training events. And we started by putting on our own public seminars. So when Tyler and I were talking about, oh, how do you fill the rooms and how do you sell the [00:02:00] tickets? And how do you make money doing this? Uh, that’s when I was like, oh yeah, we, we have, we, we have to get this recorded because this is such a great business model for people who wanna be a speaker, but who don’t wanna be, uh, dependent on somebody else hiring them or waving the magic wand to say You’re good enough to speak at an event, but just to take charge and control of your own life and put on your own events.

So Tyler, welcome to the show buddy.

Tyler: What an intro, Rory. Appreciate it, man. Honored to be on the show and Doug grateful to be able to chat with you. Always.

Rory: Yeah man. So, um, tell us about the business model. Okay, so let’s just talk public seminars for somebody who doesn’t know what that model means. Um, and I really think of, you know, we learned that model from like Tom Hopkins and Brian Tracy, and they learned that model from people before them, but I think it was.

If, I think it was really real estate investors, like people teaching, investing who really perfected this model, and now lots of [00:03:00] people use different variations of it. But like what, what is the public seminar model and just like kind of broad brush I high level, like how does it, how does it work and, and, and what’s the engine behind your business?

Tyler: Yeah. So I, in my early twenties. I wanted to be able, I wanted to start an internet business, and so I went to look for places on how to start an internet business, and I, I ran this company called Stores Online. And Stores Online is like the OG of the seminar business. Like they are, they are, they ran a, a tight, well oiled organization.

I learned so much from being with them. And so here’s, this is where I learned the model and then I, it’s something that I’ve repeated with pretty much any business that I’ve, I’ve started where it’s, I have learned. I knew the, knew the thing that I wanted to do. I learned how to do it, and then I have either worked with other seminar companies to teach it or then, you know, eventually started my own seminar company.

And so how this model works on our side, so we, we put [00:04:00] these, you know, advertisements out for free events. It’s, you know, the, this is where I believe a lot of people miss the boat because it is an upfront investment that you’re putting, I’m putting on a free event. Mm-hmm. So I’m, you know, paying this money upfront for these advertising campaigns.

We go into an area and we host a free event, and that free event, like the standard model is a 90 minute to, you know, so that hour and a half, two hour presentation. That hour and a half, two hour presentation is where I also believe it’s a free, it’s free for people to come to a live event, right? So you’re upside

Rory: down right from the beginning because you’re paying for ads, then you’re paying to host the event, and then if you’re giving them anything, gifts or food or anything like you’re, you’re immediately upside down on the front end.

Tyler: Yes, and then we’ve tested all those things. We’ve tested gifts to get ’em there. You’ve, you’ve tested, we’ve tested food to help, help them stay there and be there. But honestly, Rory, the biggest thing that we’ve tested that actually works is [00:05:00] just good value. Like to actually teach them. The whole goal of that event, and it’s no secret, we say this, the very first slide that when they get there is we want to sell them to our deep dive training, which is a three day training.

Okay? And they know that. But here’s the thing, most people will just spend that whole hour and a half, two hours just trying to sell them and providing no value. We do the opposite of that. We take them through a journey and actually teach them. Uh, and then, you know, by teaching them and actually providing value, well they wanna learn more and they actually pay for, you know, the three day training.

Rory: Okay. So that’s

Tyler: the first bit of it.

Rory: So the first part is, uh. Are these, so just to, to stick on this for a bit, so are these usually like nighttime events, weekends, middle of the day? Does it matter or, I mean, is it just It matters. It does matter. Yep. Okay. Oh,

Tyler: yeah. We’ve tested tons of different times too. So our time that we do, we have tested 11 [00:06:00] 12, 12 31, 12 30 is the timeframe.

So I’m number one. We do two of these free events each day. And in, you know, usually the same location, but 1230. ’cause we realize a lot of people are getting off lunch at 12. They need some time to travel to the event. And so we started at 1230.

Rory: Okay.

Tyler: And then it’ll go an hour and a half, and then we do the second one at 6:00 PM so 1230 and then 6:00 PM.

Rory: Interesting. And that’s just because it’s like, okay, they’re on their way home. They don’t go home and then leave. It’s like they hit it on the way home. Otherwise, if they go home, they’re not coming back. Right. That’s exactly. You nailed it. No, that’s exactly

Tyler: it. Yep.

Rory: Okay. We,

Tyler: we’ve tested this, so much of this stuff, like the different timing and we’re looking at show rate.

Your big thing is you have your cost per registrant, right? How much it’s costing for you to get a register registrant to the event. But the, the bigger metric really is your cost per attendee. Like, ’cause if they can re, like a lot of people will register, like, to give, give you this example. We have. [00:07:00] 80% of the people that register for this free event don’t show up.

Huh. So, like, if we can hit a 20% show rate, we’re pretty happy, uh, you know, anything below that. And it starts to get way too expensive. So your cost per attendee needs to be dialed in as well.

Rory: Yeah. So this is, you know, just a parallel for, for somebody listening. Okay. This is where webinars came from. Like what you’re about to hear was just like, webinars became the virtual is the virtualized version of this model, but like.

The other industry that does this all the time and has for decades is, is financial advisors. They’ve done this forever. Like, come to come to Ruth Chris for a free steak dinner, and that’s how they, they hook you to come and then they add value and then the goal is, you know, they’re gonna, they’re gonna sell from there.

This is exactly, well, it’s, it’s kind of similar to what we did. So the way that we did it was we would cold call companies. And we would try to come in and do [00:08:00] a lunch meeting at their office or during their weekly training meeting. ’cause we were, we were selling sales training. So the idea, but the pitch was sort of similar, was, let me come in and do a free 90 minute presentation.

Let me show you how I can add value in 90 minutes. Build trust, add value, build relationship. And then we would sell a a after that. So. You, those were like private seminars. You’re doing like public public seminar here. Um, so this has been around forever and even webinars to this day, even the, like the, the three day challenge model and stuff.

I mean, we’ll talk about that. They’re just virtualized versions of this is where it started.

Tyler: That’s it. And listen, we do the webinar step too, because if somebody that’s a funnel, right? Like you teach funnel building for sure. And you have this funnel, so somebody who doesn’t show up to the event. We call that a preview, non attendee a p and a and that preview non attendee will then go into a funnel that’s a webinar funnel.

’cause what we’ve realized is, and this took us a long time to realize this too, some people, we were just try to get them back [00:09:00] to a live event, but some people, they’re not ready for a live event yet. And so those people are perfect to funnel into a webinar model that now we’ve put ’em in a, in a digital funnel until they’re ready to come to live events.

Rory: Mm-hmm. Yeah. So that’s good. You’re nurturing them. I mean, that’s important, right? If, if 80% of the people don’t show, I. The game is like right there is, what do you do to keep in touch with the 80%? Um, that’s it. How are you getting these people to register? You mentioned that you’re spending money on ads, so is this like billboards, radio ads?

I mean, since it’s local advertising, is it more like traditional media or is it still like Facebook ads and stuff like that?

Tyler: Our, the bulk of our stuff comes from social media ads, so on YouTube, on Instagram, Facebook, all the social media channels we’re on, but we test radio ads. We can get pretty good. It, it costs more to get an attendee from a radio ad, but those people have a higher buy [00:10:00] rate, so, so you have to look at all these things, right?

Maybe it costs more to get ’em from radio, but if a bigger percentage of them actually show and buy, well then it’s worth, then it’s worth it. So we’ve done radio, we’ve done, uh, mailers. These people, we definitely, we still do mailers to this day. Like anybody that hits our list doesn’t show, or they even came to the event and don’t, and don’t buy.

We’ll hit them with a mailer next time we’re in town. Mm-hmm. Yeah, a lot of, but the bulk of our new leads come from social media marketing.

Rory: And when you say social media marketing, is that like you’re putting content out, like just content or it’s like you are actually cre hitting them with like an ad come to this free event or A little bit of both.

Tyler: A little bit of both, but it’s usually our paid ads, you know, organic stuff. We’ll get people come through on the organic side or you know, they get in contact with me from, you know, they watch some of my YouTube videos, but the bulk of our leads come from paid face, you know, paid social media ads.

Rory: Yeah.

Okay. And then. And what’s the, what’s the [00:11:00] goal? Like what’s the size here? Is this like a thousand people? Is this like 10 people? What’s the normal kind of like, okay, we, our first, we’re gonna do two. Great question. Two 90 minutes you said? Mm-hmm. In the same day.

Tyler: Same day. And we do ’em, so lemme tell you the times that we do ’em too.

So we do ’em Tuesday. The, the Tuesday we do them, um, like I said, 1230 and six. Wednesday, 1230 and six. Thursday, 1230 and six. Friday, 1:00 PM we only do one on Friday. Friday nights have been, those aren’t the best ones. And so we just, we just don’t do it. And then Saturday we do two and we do ’em in the mornings.

We do one at nine, and then another one, or we do one at nine and the other one at, what is it? Uh, 1130 or 12. Mm-hmm. Now, but how many people we want registered our target for? Any week that we go into, we want at least, we, we want at least, um, 2,500 people registered for the event

Rory: [00:12:00] events. And remember, not all of them, it’s really for events, right?

You’re, ’cause now all of a sudden events, you, now you’re not talking, so you’re saying like you’re hitting a city and you’re doing 2, 4, 6, 7, 9, you’re hit, you’re doing like nine events in a week.

Tyler: Yep. Yep.

Rory: So you’re looking for 2,500 registrants across nine events.

Tyler: Yep.

Rory: Wow. Yep. That’s a lot of stage time. At least you also get good, that’s how you get good on stage is doing nine, nine present presentations a week

Tyler: hundred.

The thing about that, like the, the, there’s no other place in the world where that I know of that you can. Speak, do your presentation nine times in a week and you just get dialed in. I could do my, you know, presentation at 1230 and see, man, this didn’t quite hit, this didn’t quite hit. Make a couple quick changes, hit it at six and real live.

See the results from those changes It’s saying. Credible, the reps, you don’t get those reps anywhere else.

Rory: Yeah. Yeah. That I know of. I told the story of how I spoke 304 times for [00:13:00] free in my journey to the world championship of public speaking. Most of those speeches were when I, we were starting the public seminar business.

’cause we would do three in a day sometimes, right? Yeah. So you could, you could knock out, yeah. 8, 10, 15 at, you know, 15 would be way max. But like, that’s a bunch in a week. Some people, they only present that much in a year and, um, yeah. So you’re, you’re, you’re going in. You’re doing this. Okay, so you have 90 minutes.

So let’s, let’s zoom out again. High level here. So then, then it is they free event, they come, you deliver value, and then they’re usually gonna buy a ticket to a three day training.

Tyler: Yep.

Rory: And then at the end of the three day training, is there another, like another offer upsell?

Tyler: Yep. So our. Our offer price for the three day training is 1490, so $1,497.

Okay. We’ve tested lots of these different models too. You know, 9, 9 7, 4 9, 7 14, 9 7 [00:14:00] 2000 or 9, 19 97, but 14 9 14 9 7 is I, I believe for us and what we do, that’s the, the sweet spot and our cell, like the percent of cells that we want. We want 20% of the attendees in the room to buy like to, to go. So 20% show up rate, 20% sales rate.

And that’s, those are good conversion rates to get, you know, a good three day event put together. And then, you know, my inside sales team will follow up in between the, the events to get more people there that weren’t quite ready to buy, for whatever reason, to get us a good, you know, a good size three day event.

Rory: But then you, so just a quick rough math. You got 2,500 registered. If 20% show up, that means you got 500 people showing up across nine of these. Mm-hmm. So that’s roughly 45 or 50 people at each one. Yep. Um, all right. And then, uh, out of, uh, out of [00:15:00] that, if there’s 500 people, then 20% of that would be a hundred.

You’re getting a hundred people to buy the three day deal.

Tyler: There we go. Yep.

Rory: Mm-hmm. Got it. Yeah. I love this because it is such a numbers game. I mean, that’s one of the things about the seminar business and just about hu humanity in general as you go, like an an individual person is like very, you know, nuanced and like personal and you don’t know, but like on the whole

Tyler: Yeah,

Rory: it’s like a pretty predictable numbers game.

Every city, every, I mean, I remember going door to door when I was in college. They were just like, if you, if, if you, if you show 30 people a day, the product, like you’ll get two that buy out of it. Just, it doesn’t matter how bad you are. It’s just, it’s not the theory of averages, it’s the law of averages.

Um, yes, it’s just a numbers game. So if you can get your, your cost dialed in. Then, um, then it works. Okay? So you get a hundred

Tyler: people. So think about that. Like if you think about like the, the number, if you’re exactly right, like [00:16:00] over a big span. I know that if, we’ll do, I know that if, if, if, if I’m not getting a 20% show rate, well then there’s something within my post, we call it a post reg drip campaign.

So from the time they reg to the time they showed the event, these emails, these texts, there’s something that I need to fix there. Because there’s some sort of disconnect there as to why they’re not showing. So I know where to place my focus and my energy at the event. If I’m not getting a 20% sales rate at the event, there’s something with the presentation, with one of my speakers, with something.

That’s where I place my energy and my focus. If I’m not, it’s like when you know the trends and the numbers, it helps you, it drill down on where to place your energy to fix it. If not, and you’re, once again, you’re, you’re looking at individual buyer. I mean, man, you can be just guessing forever.

Rory: And then, so at the three day event, then you have basically like your main offer, your big, your, your, your biggest, like your annual membership, right?

Tyler: Yep. Yep. [00:17:00] And so the three day event, this is another thing I’ve been to so many of these, I. And I, I’ll tell you my process as I go to these and I’m, I’m talking since my early twenties, like 21, 22, I’ve, I’ve seen so many of these three day presentations. I’ve worked at these three day presentations. I’ve, but what I did, I always knew I wanted to be a speaker, so I would, I.

These are phenomenal speakers. These are successful people who are successful in the space, but they’ve, they’ve also become very successful in speaking and understanding how to teach and translate that, you know, to the masses. And so I would take notes on how they would deliver a message and things that where I felt like they lost the crowd and things where they, you know, that went well or didn’t go well or.

You know, a story that they told and the point that was to it and how that, you know, helped overcome, like, call a response block. So overcome, uh, an objection that a buyer may have. And it is literally like playing chess

Rory: Mm.

Tyler: Through the, you know, through that three day weekend. And I did that due for a decade before I ever got a chance to speak at one of these events.[00:18:00]

So I took notes. I’m not joking you for 10 years until I got a chance to then get up on one of one of these stages. But I was weaponized, man because I had been, you know, dissecting so many of these events for so long. I knew what I was gonna go in and do. It was good.

Rory: So what, what are, what are some of the keys that you think going, what are some of the conversion steps of the 90 minutes?

So you mentioned the show rates really important. Yes. And you go, there’s a number of things. We gotta get people to show up. What are some of the things that you go. These are in, in the, in the free 90 minute version. Yep. These are the things that must happen in order for a 20% conversion to the three day.

Tyler: Great question. Great question. So I look at it in different phases. This presentation has these different phases. Okay. Section one, I go by sections. Section one is, um, [00:19:00] you know, and, and I’ll even drill it down into. Because it really does follow I, I’m pretty sure I learned this even at your mastermind event that I went through with you that then made me think through my presentation and how the sections are at.

But I think you have the something number of PS of marketing or something. I can’t remember how many PS 15 Ps

Rory: of marketing. Yeah, the 15 piece of, there we go. Marketing. Yep. 15. So the first one’s Promise 15 piece of copywriting. That’s the copywriting. Yeah. The 15 piece of copywriting is how you write sales pages.

And it’s all based on the psychological process somebody has to go through in order before they’ll buy

Tyler: Uhhuh. Yes. So it’s so similar. So once I, I learned that at your mastermind. I remember going back after that and going through that 90 minute presentation and like segmenting it out and being like, this is the same thing.

So the first part, you know, first section, the promise. And what I’m really doing there is I want them to answer the questions. What do I want? Why do I want it? And then I want them to be thinking about how long they’ve. Then wanting that and [00:20:00] why they haven’t taken action on it. So if I can help them understand, hey, man, or, or just identify for themselves, like, man, I have wanted this for a long time and this is why it’s important to me.

This has been the thing that’s been getting in my way. Or, or, or even identify like how even just getting in the framework of this is what I want and why I want it. And then if I know those things, the how tool will start to reveal itself. So this is the promise section. Yeah. The next section is the problem and the pain.

Right? So it’s it’s what they want, why they want it, then it is. But this is the thing that’s been getting in the way of that, right? So most people think in, in our events as an example, that it’s gonna take too much money or that they, or that they don’t have enough money, that they, um, don’t wanna be a landlord, that they don’t know how to underwrite or analyze these deals, these, these things that they believe are the problems.

And now I’m gonna, now they know what they want. I’m gonna debunk the things that they think have been the issue and show them that they’re not the issue. And then I’m gonna go into [00:21:00] the premise, which is who we are. This is who we are. This is who we’ve helped. This is what we’ve done. This is some students that we’ve helped.

This is their testimonials, right? So it’s showing them, Hey, these, you want this? This is what you thought was got in the way. Let me introduce you to this student who wanted the same thing they thought that got in the way. They overcame it, and now they’re here. Right?

Rory: Yeah. Following with me so far, Uhhuh.

Yeah. I mean, those are the, the, you’re, you’re tracking the 15 Ps like identically promise, problem, pain, premise, and then we talk about process, uh, payoffs and proof. Uh, right? Which is like what everything you’re talking about is going, here’s who we are, this is how we do it, how this is how we got into it, and this is how we do it.

And then, um, if you do it right, here’s what’ll happen. And then here’s the proof of. Other people who have been able to do it.

Tyler: Yes. So that’s, that’s exactly it. Yep.

Rory: Uhhuh Uhhuh. And

Tyler: I, [00:22:00]

Rory: go ahead. Were you gonna ask something? Uh, no. So, so, so that’s the three parts of the presentation.

Tyler: The first part of it.

There’s more,

Rory: but Okay. But that’s like the high level outline of what you’re gonna do over the 90 minutes, basically. Right. So,

Tyler: so it’s higher though. So then from there, I go into the offer and I do the offer. We drop the offer right out the gates, like within the first 30, 45 minutes we’re telling them what the offer is.

Hmm. And then my mindset is from there, ’cause a lot of people will drop it at the end. My mi my mentality is I wanna drop it as quickly in the beginning as I possibly can. And then the rest of the presentation I’m seeding back into like the, how this value exceeds the cost of. Training, right? So, hey, this is the investment, this is the value.

Okay? So then I can go through and I’m walking them through the, uh, really the plan that we have. And I have these, you know, seven, seven steps essentially, that they need to take on every deal. And so, seven [00:23:00] steps on every single deal, and I’m walking them through, finding the deal, sourcing the deal, underwriting the deal, and then the whole way through.

I’m, I’m like, I’m showing proof throughout, right? But this is, I believe, the key of what I do and how I do it. And I, and I, all up, until I’m going through the seven steps, which, you know, I would say the plan or the proof section, I am talking about what they want, certainly. But then it’s like, Hey, this is what I’ve done.

These are other people that have done that. But then when I’m going through the steps, I’m telling them a story. I’m telling them a me story with a them meaning, right? Like I’m telling this story, but I’m painting it in their light. Like, and the, even the verbiage that I use is when you do this deal and when you source this deal, when you underwrite this deal and when you do this thing, and then what happens is you get this payment and this is how you would get paid.

So they’re seeing themselves go through this journey, this super powerful, I believe, just from a, a mental construct for them to see, like them going through the journey instead of [00:24:00] just telling them all about my journey. Right.

Rory: Mm-hmm. And then how do you actually collect the money? Like, so you do all these things that’s interesting.

You, you tell ’em the offer right up front, here’s what it is. And so it’s kind of like, there’s not a big surprise at the end. It’s like this is the thing, and then you’re basically cost justifying and price anchoring and like doing all those things. And then at the end you just be like. Like, do you send ’em to a website?

Do you like hand out a form for them to fill out? Like what? What do you do? They go talk to somebody one-on-one.

Tyler: Yeah. So. I am doing soft closes. I also believe this is a huge separator here. I’m doing soft closes the whole way through. So, so for example, I will, you know, talk about, you know, I’ll talk about the, the cost of the investment.

Then I’ll go through a quick high level. These are the seven steps I’m gonna walk you through. And then I talk [00:25:00] about right out the gates, you know, finding the deals and running the numbers. And as an example, I show them a software we use to run the numbers. That makes it super, super simple. And then I’ll ask questions like, how many of you think that this software alone could be worth more than the cost of investment by raise of hands, right?

They raising their hands and I said, if your hand’s up, then go to the back, set up for the event and go and get that. But then I don’t har, I don’t harp on it at all. I’ll say something like, go to the back side for the event. I get that and then I’ll immediately move to the next section. Okay. This is the three ways you get paid.

This is an acquisition fee. This is the way that you get paid for, you know, upfront on the deal. How many of you would like to make this type? How many of you would like to be able to, you know, have checks like this? I’ll show some proof checks like this, you know, oh, you know, coming in over the next year by raise of hands, guys, if you’re hand up, go to the back, sign up for the event, and they don’t.

Just think about it. Go and do it. And you’ll see. I give them permission. Um, it sounds funny to say that, but that’s literally what it is. In the very beginning, I say, Hey, man, you’ll see that a number of you will stand up, [00:26:00] go to the back, sign up for the event and leave before I’m even done speaking. I said, that’s okay.

You don’t have to wait for me to ring the bell at the end when you know this is what you wanna do, guys, take immediate action to go and do it, and we’ll see you at the three day event. And so most of the people who have signed up who, who sign up, sign up before I even end. And so I want. Momentum that that creates to the event as people are standing up and that, you know, as people stand up and go sign up, I’m congratulating ’em from the front and I’ve trained my speakers to do the same thing.

We even have a, I’m giving too much here, but you know, if somebody’s watching this, they really wanna do, do this. This is, this is literally what I do. We have a whiteboard, like a little tiny whiteboard, and my team will take that whiteboard. The minute that person comes to the back, somebody is, they’re signing up on the form.

We’re not sending ’em to a website. There’s a form at the back. They are coming back to sign up. And as soon as that happens, the other team member will come around, see the the person’s name, take the whiteboard, write their name on it, go like this in the back of [00:27:00] the room. So I’m the only one that can see it.

And then I call them by name and say, Hey Ted, so excited to see you at the event. We’ll see you there. Right. And so that whole time I’m congratulating people as they’re going and he just creates a buying momentum.

Rory: Yeah. It’s the same thing you do on like a webinar, right? When it’s like if you see things, people pinging through a shopping cart.

You’re reading out the emails and you’re like, oh, Tyler, like, congratulations. We’re so excited to have you and you know, whatever. Like, why, why’d you decide to do this? Like the, um, but it’s so, it’s, it’s very transparent. It sounds like It’s very open from the beginning and then it’s just like, go, go to the back and sign up.

Like, not a big deal. Just, Hey, when you’re ready, go to the back and sign up. Exactly. And it’s just, there’s a form at the back table. They fill it out. Simple as that.

Tyler: Yep, that’s exactly it. The whole winter. That’s why I like to go through the cost right at the very beginning. So that I can, so it’s just, it is out the gates.

Like literally slide one or two, we say, Hey, how many of you, you know, came here today hoping that we can teach you something about, you know, real estate or making money in real estate, or something along those lines. Raise your [00:28:00] hands and they’ll say, you know, they’ll raise their hands and they’ll say, okay, how many of you came here today thinking that I might try to sell you something?

And, you know, they’ll, I’ll raise their hands and I’ll say, I promise you that I will not disappoint you. We’re definitely gonna do that. You know, we’re gonna sell you something this weekend. They all laugh and it removes some tension and then we tell ’em the price and it’s like, dude, there’s no, there’s no trying to hide something or drop, Hey, this is what it usually is.

But today, and today only, it’s this. I don’t do that game either, so.

Rory: Yeah. Um, and then is it sort of similar during the three day situation? It’s like you do, you let ’em know right up front, like in day one somewhere, Hey, this is like, yep. We, it is sort of just the same thing over again, but

Tyler: just very, yeah, and we actually will, most people already know, ’cause most people, you know, if they’re there, they’ve looked up things and they know that there’s other offerings and so, I mean, do, we’ll even tell ’em that at the first meeting, you know, because people will always ask, it’s almost inevitable that somebody in their travel raise their hands at the first meeting and ask, are you gonna try to sell [00:29:00] something?

Sell me something at that second event. And we go, absolutely. Yeah. We have trainings that cost anywhere from. You know, 5,000 to $40,000. So yeah, we wanna, we wanna, our thing is this, we want to give you anything and everything that you. Needing and can get access to, to help you with your business. So yes, absolutely.

Your job is to determine what you need and get access to the things that you need. Our job isn’t to try to bamboozle you and pull the wool underneath your eyes and sell you something. Our job is to show you things that are of value and it’s your job to determine as a business owner if you want those things.

Rory: So, Hmm, that’s good. So, so make sure I heard that right. So you’re just saying basically like, our job is to give you access to anything and everything you would need to do this business. Your job is to figure out which of those things you actually need to support you.

Tyler: Yeah. Yes, that’s exactly it.

Rory: That’s a great mindset, right?

Like there’s nothing slimy or scammy about [00:30:00] it. And it’s like, well if, if I can tell you what to do and you can go figure it all out on your own, then go do it on your own. But if I tell you what to do, mm-hmm. And you’ve realize you need help with this part or that part. Great. You work with, you work with us.

Um, yeah, that’s, that’s really super transparent. Um, so you, you don’t like wait till the end of the second day to make the offer or anything on the, at the three day event. You just let ’em know kind of right up front, same thing. And then it’s like, go to the back and sign up. When you’re ready, go to the back and sign up when you’re ready.

Tyler: Yeah, when they walk in, there’s literally a brochure on their seats to talk about mentorship. And once again, most people don’t drop this on the three day event. Most people don’t drop it until like you said. Sometime on end of day two, but I swear in my life, it’s my third slide of my three day event. So my third slide of day one.

So we’re talking, we’re we’re 15 minutes, 20 minutes in, you know, no, no longer than that. And I will bring it up. Hey, there’s, you know, you get access to other trainings courses, [00:31:00] classes are classes offered above and beyond was taught here. Yes, those things cost money. You wanna know what those things are. I said, you know, $39,997 and sometimes you’ll get a gasp, but I, but listen, when I’m saying it.

I am like, I literally breathe in, okay, write this down, 39,997 as monotone as possible. And then I’ll say, then I’ll say, okay, write it down once again, $39,997. I’m not gonna drop that at the end of the day. I’m not gonna drop that at the end of the weekend. That’s the cost of investment. Oh, it’s, that’s what it’s.

So for those of you who just wanna go and do your first deal though, and then I go straight past it and then I seed it in the entire way through. But then on day two at lunch, before they go to lunch, I go through like really what that would look like, what their mentorship journey would look like. And then, you know, then, so that they can have time to make it a sound decision.

’cause I don’t like an emotional decision where somebody has to make that at the end in this, you know. [00:32:00] Quick environment. I want them to have ample time, like the entire weekend to be like, is this actually something that I want to do? And some people don’t want that because they’re nervous that they’ll talk themselves out of it.

I believe the more value that you provide and the more that you can help them see well, what they can create and do, do the right ones are gonna say yes, and the, you know, the, the wrong ones, or you know, the ones that aren’t a fit. Whoa. And that’s, I would much rather them determine that then than me put so much time and effort into ’em afterwards.

And then have that, you know, have to have refunds or cancellations or whatever comes from that,

Rory: you know? Yeah, yeah. That, that, uh, I, I mean, I think what’s so powerful is you’re not hiding anything. No, like you’re just, you’re not, you’re not hiding anything. You’re not tricking anybody. You’re not sneak trying to sneak something out.

It’s like, it’s right out there in the open and it’s like, if you think this will help you, then great. Go for it. You know, we call that the pressure free promise, which is the, the language that we actually teach. So one [00:33:00] of our courses is called Pressure Free Persuasion, and we have, we have language called the Pressure Free Promise, where we say, Hey, I’m gonna, I’m gonna give you a really good look at this.

And if you like it, great. I’ll show you how to go ahead and sign up and get started. If you don’t like it, totally fine. Like, no, no big deal. Our, our job isn’t to talk you into anything you don’t want or need. I just wanna show you what it is, and for some of you to be a fit, for some of you it’s not. It’s totally okay.

And that like, clearing the air of just like letting it be their decision, I think I’ve always felt is like really powerful and transparent and trustworthy. Because you don’t have to be slimy and sneaky and shady to sell people stuff. They, it, it’s, it’s like you’re not selling them anything. You’re showing it to them and the ones who want it will buy it if you allow it to just be available for sale, like we all go to Amazon every day Yes.

And buy stuff without anybody selling it to us. We just have to know it exists.

Tyler: Yeah. Yes. Kate, can I give you an example of [00:34:00] this, of your organization? Tell me how you guys did such an amazing job with this Is I. Got a phone call and they were like, listen, we noticed that you haven’t been logging in to watch like the digital trainings and those kind of things.

But we’ve been with you in person, like we’ve been with you in person before and like you are so present and like we just, I think that you do better in like a live personal intensive setting, like all in for that many days. And I’m like, I do. That’s definitely more how I learn. Like I want to get it done and build it and go that like, okay, well we have this thing and then they just.

Told me about it. They just told me and immediately I literally hung up the phone. I spent, it’s more money to do that, but it doesn’t that, it doesn’t matter. The value for me personally, was well worth it, man. And so I literally hung up the phone, paid, you know, a good chunk of money to y’all, and I hung up the phone.

Grateful, like, just like grateful, like, oh my gosh, I’m so excited that this solution was there. Your team crushed it at that.

Rory: Hmm. I love [00:35:00] that. I love that. Yeah. And that’s such a good testimonial, not just for us as a company, but for anybody to go. Just because something’s more expensive isn’t like you somehow took advantage of somebody.

Like people are genuinely grateful to go, I will pay more money to get the thing I really need, and I’ll be happier about that than paying less money for the thing that isn’t quite what I need.

Tyler: Yes. That’s exactly it.

Rory: Yeah, that’s, that’s exactly

Tyler: it.

Rory: That’s really good. Yeah. Um, that, that’s, that’s, that’s awesome.

Um, and that’s what this is all about, right? Is just going, how can we serve people and help them, help them succeed? So, uh, well, lemme tell you something.

Tyler: Yeah. Sorry. Go ahead. Go for it.

Rory: Tell me,

Tyler: I was just gonna say, you know, one thing that I didn’t think through is that I thought so much, man, through what.

The messaging and that first presentation. And you have to, ’cause if you’re gonna make any money in this business and survive, you have to have a good [00:36:00] close rate at your first event and a good close rate at your, at your three day event. You have to. But I will tell you where the real, um, money and value is, is actually after that.

And so people would ask me all the time, they’d be like, okay, hey. And so now I just literally bring this up at the event. Right after I go through the offer, I’ll say, Hey, a lot of people will ask me, what are you gonna try to sell me? After this, after I’ve done this big thing now, then whatcha gonna try to sell me And I, and I will say, I wanna sell you as much as I can possibly sell you.

That’s what I wanna do. Anybody who tells you otherwise is the person that you should be. Anybody that’s like, once you have this, that’s all you need. Like dude, that’s the person that you need to be aware of. That’s the person you need to be skeptical of. I wanna sell you anything that I could possibly sell you.

The only reason you should ever buy anything though, is because you see the value from it. That’s it. But one mistake that I made. I didn’t think through that. What the next thing that they would need after they left the three day. Like obviously, I mean, not the three day, that was [00:37:00] very much thought out on the mentorship side, but once they were done with that first year of mentorship, what was that next thing that they would need?

I didn’t think, I didn’t think through that process, which means I would bring these students to this point of like they, they’re closing their first deal and then this, they need this next thing. I didn’t have it, so I had to go refer that to other people who did have it. So my, my, my, I guess call to anybody that would want to do this is, and I’m gonna tell you why I didn’t do it, because I didn’t wanna sell ’em more things.

I, it was a limiting belief I had. ’cause I thought, man, I don’t wanna just continue to bombard ’em with sales all the time. I wanna provide value. They need, they need things like, they need things at different stages of the journey. And it was a limiting belief that I had, that I had to overcome. And I’m grateful that I did.

Rory: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean, that’s the. Irony of it is it, is it, I mean, this is our entire, our entire strategy at Brand Builders Group is just going, what’s the next thing we need to create to help our customers succeed faster? [00:38:00] Mm. Like that’s our great question. That’s our whole strategy, just going, okay.

What’s the next thing we need to create to help our customers succeed faster? And a lot of times, we’ll, we’ll include it right in our program. Like we we’re sort of notorious for delaying price increases, uh, you know, from, from really like when we should. But, um, what, what ends up happening is we’ll create all these things and then it’s like, man, we have really upleveled this.

And then it’s almost like then we’ll, uh, and then we’ll upgrade the price sometimes. Uh, like, uh, we won’t do it retroactively on the people that were there, but it’s like, oh, now we can certainly charge a higher price. ’cause we’re, we’ve added all this stuff. We never increased the price and we tend to grandfather people in if they’ve been with us.

Um, but, uh, you know that, to your point. Like, so one of the things that we have, we said in wealthy and well known, by the way, did you, you got, did you get your galley copy of our new book? You got it. I got, I got it.

Tyler: Yep.

Rory: Yep. Yes. So, so one of the, the, the new flagship mantras in there [00:39:00] is that the best form of marketing in the world is it changed life.

Mm-hmm. And, and it is going, all right, how can I help my people succeed? How can I help ’em succeed faster? How can I make this easier? How can I do more of the work for them? And it’s like, you know, I joke sometimes at BBGI say. Our job will be done when you sign up as a customer for BBG and checks, just start showing up in your mailbox from your customers.

’cause we will have created so many things that basically like, you know, help people and that that there’s a long, doesn’t matter what you’re selling, what industry, there’s so much more that people need and it costs time and money to create those things. And so that’s what people pay money for, is to save them time.

So that’s what, as the creators we’re doing, is going. How can we solve those problems for people? What do they need next? And every new level of success opens up a new level of problems.

Tyler: Fact. Yes. Yes. That’s exactly it. And the more that we can recognize that and understand that, and like my job, I believe [00:40:00] my job now is to stay a few steps ahead of everyone, like meaning.

I’m supposed to figure these things out, and as I figure it out, then I pass it down, right? Figure it out. How did I do it? Okay, this is how I did it, and I pass it down. You just continue to build and grow. It’s the same thing that you do, bro. It’s, it’s the same thing.

Rory: Yeah, that’s, that’s exactly the idea, man, because, um, and that’s why we’re so, we’re so keen and strong on like, serve a smaller audience in a deeper way, like not a smaller audience.

Yeah. Serve a more specific audience in a deeper way because the, the way to be able to charge more is to, to. To like do more and more and more of the thing for them. And that’s really hard to do with 15 different audiences. But if you have one mm-hmm. Very specific customer, you’re like. You know, I can do all this.

And we’re, we’re, we’re getting that point with books right now. ’cause it’s like we can help you create the ideation, we can help you outline it, we can create the frameworks, we can do the design, we can help you write it. Now we’re now we have a publishing company. We can publish the book, we can [00:41:00] print it, we can manufacture it, we can distribute it, we can teach you how to sell it.

We can build all the funnels for it. And then we can like process all the books, you know, all the bulk sales to make ’em count, you know, in the best way. And go, is this end to end thing for an, for an author? Uh, yeah. So, and then massively valuable. So I love that. Massively valuable. That’s, I love that’s what you’re doing.

Um, anything else?

Tyler: Well, I’m trying to, I’m trying to do to the A to Z like, like you do there. ’cause it is that, you know, it’s a con, it’s a continual process of like, what does that really, the whole upsell piece of it, or not even upsell, but just like the, the next thing that they need is, dude, it’s really like, it is, it, it, it consumes my thoughts because.

Probably because, you know, I didn’t do that before. And so it was a learning lesson and I realized that, dude, I left people hanging. I felt like, you know, at that point. And it’s like, I don’t wanna do that. I wanna make sure that they have what they need and if they can get it in one spot, that’s also valuable.

The more areas that I have to go to get something, you know, the [00:42:00] harder and harder it gets. Um, one more thing that I wanna say. ’cause you said the, the big biggest testimonial is a changed life or something like that, right?

Rory: Yeah. The best form of marketing is a changed life.

Tyler: Okay, so this is one thing that I do that I also believe is a separator, is at my events at all these other events that I had been to, they were trained salespeople that came to the event to sell, and they’re very good at sales.

The people who, uh, help at my events are they’re students. They’re past students who have went through and done the thing, and they might not have this sales background. They might not have this. You know, know how to, you know, exactly how to, you know, position the set, but you know what, their life has changed and that energy is palpable, you know, and the gratitude that they have, and that’s just felt throughout the room.

And so it’s, it’s one thing that I’m, you know, my partners when we first started were very [00:43:00] apprehensive about. But it’s one thing I was super bullish about because I was like, no, listen. Like they, I, and I knew this because this is what I did with Dave Lindell. When I talked with Dave Lindell, I, I, my life had changed from what he taught me.

And I was like, dude, nobody’s gonna sell more than I, I’m gonna sell because I’m so passionate and so grateful about it. It’s like, if we can get these people that we’ve already helped to do this thing in the room, listen, that energy is. Beautiful.

Rory: Yeah. Yeah. That’s awesome. Yeah. So with that, that’s one of the, the other flagship lines is we say if you do your job right, your customer force will become your sales force.

And, and we mean that literally. And that’s like you, yes, you have, you did that right. You were someone’s customer. You’ve done that for us. I mean, you’ve helped us sell, uh, you know, people at BBG and, and like. That’s, that’s how you know you got it right. When, when you, when someone is going, you, it’s almost like, you don’t have to pay me.

I’ll go tell people about you because I believe in the value of [00:44:00] what you’re doing. Right? A hundred percent. They don’t, they don’t, and they don’t do that if they feel sold. They don’t feel that if they, if you over promise and underdelivered, they don’t do that for you. If you snuck something in on them and you go, it’s, it’s really shortsighted to just try to trick someone into buying something once.

Because like even if you did do that, like you still lost because the big sale is the second, third, fourth, fifth sale, and you never get, you never get that sale. Those sales when you, when if, if you under serve on the first one. Uh, that’s it. Yes. So I love this brother. Well, thanks so much. I mean, this is so transparent, Tyler, and, and helpful and, you know, I just want people to see, like, this model applies.

It’s been going, it’s proven for years, and it’s just going,

Tyler: yep.

Rory: You, you start with free, you add value, you build trust, and then you solve their next problem. Then you deliver on that, you add value, and then you see if you can solve another problem and then another problem, and then it’s just like, um, you’re not upselling, you’re up serving.

[00:45:00] You’re just out serving. That’s exactly it. You’re out

Tyler: serving. I’ll say one more thing as we wrap, which is it could be, it might be daunting for someone to look at it and think, man, how do I create all those pieces of the puzzle? But what you just said is, I. Is how you do it. Listen, start with providing free value.

See what people find valuable in the free setting. Then dude, instead of doing, going straight to a live, try some things, test some things out on some webinars, but do a bunch of ’em. And then once you understand, hey, this thing is working, and then you can move that to a live model. But then you’ll also have the webinar model there and both of those things go hand in hand.

So start with something that you know is feasible for you, but the free. Portion of it, the more you can give away for free and understand what people actually want, man, then you can build so much from that on the back end of it.

Rory: So, yeah, totally. Um, well this has been so great, Tyler. Is there any word that you want people to go if they do wanna like learn about you and follow your journey?

Tyler: Yeah, hit me up on [00:46:00] Instagram in Instagram’s my best place to, I’m very active on Instagram. I do all my, you know, inbox and so hit me up on, on Instagram, Tyler Devereaux, D-E-V-E-R-A-U-X. Uh, but would love to connect, would love to know that you, you know, found some value here. And if you have any questions about the event space, I love this stuff.

Like, I love this stuff more than willing to answer questions in help any way I can.

Rory: That’s so great buddy. Well, thank you so much and, uh, we’re so thanks Laurie, so grateful for you buddy, and we, uh, we wish you all the best.

Ep 602: Books Don’t Sell Themselves: How to Build Influence (and Income) After You Publish – with Nick Hutchison

AJ: [00:00:00] Welcome to our show. I am so excited to have you on the show today. It’s rare that I get to have an actual real life human friend, but also I actually got to spend the last almost eight hours with you today. So also getting to see you shine in what you do best, and I’m so excited to help the world get to know about what you do.

But before we get into that, ’cause I could spend the next hour just asking you questions. I would love for our audience to get to know you a little bit better, right? You’re the CEO and founder of Book Thinkers. You started this company, what? What year is it? Almost eight years ago. In 2017 with two friends.

Tell us what is Book Thinkers? Why did you start it? And what do you do?

NIck: We’ll actually start the story back in 2015, so two years before I started Book Thinkers, and I think this will be interesting to your audience. Prior to 2015, I was not much of a reader at all, even though it’s my [00:01:00] entire personality today when I was growing up, I was more of the athlete stereotype, not really much of the academic.

So I mean, you couldn’t have paid me to read a book back then. But in 2015, I took an internship going into my senior year of college at a local software company, and it was a sales internship. And my boss, Kyle, he’s a little bit of a pain in the neck, but the one thing that rubbed off on me in a positive way was personal development.

He loved personal development content, specifically podcasts. Now, at the time, I had never listened to a podcast in my life, but I was commuting almost an hour each way. Day, five days a week to that internship. So 10 hours a week in the car, and Kyle said, that’s a book said to me, that’s a week, Nick. It was, well, but first he said podcasts.

So he said, on your way to and on your way from work, you can listen to the world’s greatest entrepreneurs. Talk about how they became successful for free. Mm.

And

NIck: I was like, that sounds amazing. And Kyle was a cool guy and he was recommending it. So I gave it a [00:02:00] shot. And very quickly within the first couple of weeks, I realized that most of the successful people that I wanted to be like, because all of these people were superstars, I.

They were all giving at least some credit for their success to the books that they had read. Mm. And here I was too cool to read a book. Not willing to read because of my reputation. I thought I was the cool guy on campus, but I was entirely wrong. I went to my local, Barnes and Noble. I grabbed about 10 books from the shelves.

AJ: Right. Hold on. What books did you grab? Do you remember?

NIck: Oh yeah, of course I do. And I wish I, I actually reached out to Barnes and Noble for the receipt, but they didn’t have it because I wanted to like frame that thing. Mm. I didn’t know it was about to change my life. So Rich Dad, poor Dad. Mm-hmm. By Robert Kiyosaki and the Cashflow Quadrant were the first two books that I read as an adult.

I also read The Total Money Makeover by Dave Ramsey, think and Grow Rich by Napoleon Hill, the Richest Man in Babylon by George s Clayson. A lot of money books here, the Seven Habits of Highly Effective People. But that’s the funny thing is like. You are most powerfully positioned to serve the [00:03:00] person you once were.

Mm-hmm. And I think that books, they solve problems. Amen. Just like people solve problems. So at the time I’m a business school student. I don’t know anything about money. I get super insecure in the classroom when kids start bringing up like how much they’re gonna make outta college. And all of these complicated, like kids are managing money with the school’s money.

It, it was all over my head. I. So I’m like, I was naturally drawn to books that promised to solve my financial literacy issues. Hmm. And that’s why I think when I first started getting into these books in 2015 and they started solving my problems and building the skills that I was looking to build, I just became hooked.

And money was that first thing.

AJ: Okay. So lots of people read books. Very few people are so moved by them. They then go, I gotta turn this into a business. I’ve gotta like do something more with this. Lots of people read. What was it that made you go, okay, this is beyond just reading books and personal development.

This is, this is a business.

NIck: The [00:04:00] original idea for book thinkers was a little funny because I was reading so many books, but I was having a hard time retaining anything from them. And I had a friend at college, his name is Alec. And Alec and I were always trying to find a new business to start. We didn’t really know what, but we were looking for opportunities and we heard that entrepreneurs solve.

Problems. Well, I had started forgetting so much of the content that I was reading, that it was becoming a problem. And one weekend we were sitting in, I went to the University of New Hampshire. We were sitting in a little room with the whiteboards, just drawing out all the problems that we face that week.

And I said, I can’t remember anything from the books I’m reading. I need a place to document my favorite takeaways from each book. Yeah. Around the same time, a hometown friend who I had gotten coffee with Derek, he said, let’s put all of those takeaways on a website. So we all got together, we called it Book Thinkers, and the very first iteration of Book Thinkers was simply a website where I would put my favorite takeaways from every one of the books that I was reading so that I could go back and reread those [00:05:00] notes.

Hmm. This was before an Instagram account or before any author services. It was just a way for me to retain content. And obviously it’s evolved since then, but that was the need that I was trying to solve in my own life.

AJ: Yeah, I mean, lots of people read lots of books and apply. None of it. Is that kind of the thing?

It’s like how much are we reading, how much are we retaining, and then how much are we actually applying?

NIck: Yeah. My, one of my mentors Kevin Horsley, who’s a grandma of memory, and we could talk about what that means in a minute. He has this great Ted Talk. He, he starts by saying to the audience. How many of you have read the legendary book, the Seven Habits of Highly Effective People, and every Hand in the room goes up, and then he says, now put your hands up again.

If I can call on you and you can name the seven habits and no hands go up. And then he delivered this line that the first time I heard it, it hit me like a punch to the gut. He said, what is the use of reading or learning anything? If you can’t recall

AJ: what

NIck: you know,

AJ: that’s good.

NIck: The minute that information [00:06:00] disappears, so does its value.

AJ: Mm-hmm.

NIck: And so we spent all of this time consuming content in the same way that people look at social media and they want the likes and the shares and the vanity metrics. People also read books just to cross ’em off a list, add them to the big stack of books that they’ve read, put it on their Zoom background.

And that frustrates me because these books like yours have the power to change lives. Yeah. But people aren’t using them that way.

AJ: Mm. I love that. And that’s so true. You know, I didn’t read a lot growing up. I read a lot of fiction, but not nonfiction, not like personal development. It wasn’t until my early twenties, but I really got onto that train.

But then when I had kids, I just honestly gave myself the excuse. I don’t have time for this. Right. It’s like I am to the max. And I can tell you when I stopped doing personal development, when I stopped listening to books or con going to conferences and stopped reading, like I really fell into like a pretty, I’m not gonna say like a full on depression, but I was in a pretty severe [00:07:00] state, like not a good, healthy mental state.

And I remember like Rory, my husband as you know, having like a, a serious come to Jesus meeting with me, he’s like. Hmm. You have got to snap out of this. Like, what is going on? Like something is up. Like, do you need counseling? Do you need therapy? Like, what? What is happening? And I wouldn’t do it. And so somebody recommended a book to me.

They said, Hey, you’re really struggling with your transition in life right now. I recommend a book. It’s an easy first step. Nothing to prove by Jenny Allen and that book. It changed my life. It set me back on a trajectory of rediscovering purpose. Mm-hmm. Personal value, my connection to God. Like it literally set me on a new trajectory.

And that was what, roughly five years ago. And ever since then, it’s like back on the book train, back on the learning train. But it’s like when you say books have the power to change a life, that book nothing to Prove by Jenny Allen changed my life. [00:08:00]

NIck: I love that story and it’s a testament to my entire personal brand at this point.

I mean, I, I believe the right book at the right time when properly implemented, like we’re alluding to, will change your life. These books condense decades of somebody else’s greatest life experience in today’s and for $20, or in your case for free. You can read the book, you can implement the lessons, you can overcome the problem or build the skill.

You can diversify your perspective, live up to your potential. Like there’s so many reasons that books are a great medium for learning content, and so I’m so happy to hear that. And like my life has been changed and I can’t tell you literally thousands of dms since we started the company with people saying, Hey, you recommended this book.

I decided to read it and it changed my life. Mm. Like my entire life is different. Books change lives. They really do. When you

AJ: think about it. For 25 bucks, you can get some of the best business coaching, financial coaching, marriage coaching, life coaching, whatever it is in the world. So the whole idea of, I can’t afford it, [00:09:00] or it’s like go to the library, get a library card, it’s like it is accessible for the cheapest amount of money humanly possible.

It is right there. And you kind of have dedicated your whole business model to helping books. Be known. Right. So tell us how Book Thinkers has evolved from just helping you remember the books to helping other people know what books are out there.

NIck: So I started sharing the content that I was reading on social media, and as my audience started to grow, as I started to reach more people, I would have authors reach out to me in my dms and they’d say, Hey Nick, I love your content.

I’ve been following along for, for a long time, and I think your audience would get at a kick of, I think your audience would get a kick out of. My book, how much do you ca, or how much do you charge to promote it? At the time I was reading for free, right? This was just a passion of mine and so the idea of getting paid to do something that I was already doing for free was like a dream come true.

So, and I looked [00:10:00] this up recently, the first author that I ever did business with. I charged him $50 for a review, so he sent me a copy of his book. He sent me $50. I read it cover to cover, and I just talked about my favorite takeaways on social media, and the light bulb went off if there’s natural inbound momentum mm-hmm.

For this service, I bet if I started to reach out to other people. That they would be interested in it too. And not only just random authors looking to sell a couple of books, but some of my favorite authors, big time authors looking for additional promotion. And so that’s how the flywheel started. As we started to work with more authors and I would get involved in their businesses, I realized that a lot of times these books in the nonfiction business or personal development space, they’re not standalone products, but they’re a lead mechanism or a credibility builder or a business card.

For some type of higher ticket complimentary product or service. Mm-hmm. You know, coaching, consulting, speaking, all of the things that the BBG clients love to build [00:11:00] on the back end of their books. And so that’s when I thought, I bet I could help them sell books. But also coaching, consulting, speaking, whatever their business was.

And that’s when we really started to sort of hit the gas and, and take off.

AJ: And when was that?

NIck: It took a couple of years. Book Thinkers was very much a side hustle from 20 17, 20 18, 20 19. I started to take it more seriously. There’s about six figures in just book promotion income at that point. And so I started to take it more seriously, like I bet this could be my full-time job.

Hmm. At some point.

AJ: So one of the things that I love, um, ’cause I think I’m, I’m a lover of books ’cause I know the value that there is and, and quite honestly how much time and preparation goes into it. If you think about the amount of time that we prepped for this podcast, just being honest, I probably spent 15 minutes on an outline, called it a day.

That’s about what I would do for a blog. When you write a book, it’s years. It is [00:12:00] years and so much time, energy, money, and resources, it’s not even comparable. So when you think about that, not spending the time to promote the book is just nonsense, right? But as authors, we spend so much time writing the book, creating the content, getting it out there.

Then it’s like we’re kind of just tired. And it’s like, well, really, that’s when the work really begins. So what I would love for you to share with everyone who is listening is. What are some of the biggest misconceptions that you see when it comes to book marketing that actually helps authors get their book out into the world?

NIck: Robert Kiyosaki said it best. It’s not New York Times best written, right? It’s best selling. Selling is a verb. It’s an action. It’s something that you need to participate in. I think gone are the days because the barrier is so low to get a book out there that you can just put together some content. It’s uploaded to Amazon and all of a sudden you’ll sell a million copies.

It’s very unlikely that that’s going to happen. I think the sales [00:13:00] process that you teach at BBG through the bestseller launch plan is great because you do all of this work leading up to the launch for the better part of a year. That’s how much time it takes to prepare for the launch, and that entire time you’re working on your messaging, you’re putting together these bulk order packages, you are selling your book, putting together a launch team, and then your launch happens, but you need to continue to pour more fuel on the fire, which we could talk about in a few minutes.

The misconception is that the book will sell itself. Hmm. It won’t. Yes, of course, word of mouth can happen. If you change a life over time, people will start to share your book, but that’s slow. You want it to happen faster, right? You wanna change more lives, which means you need to put more effort into promoting and marketing your book.

It will not sell itself.

AJ: So why don’t people do that? Like, why don’t people promote market and sell their book?

NIck: I think that it’s uncomfortable. People are scared, they’re uncertain. They don’t know how to navigate this new age of marketing, which is social media and personal branding and podcast [00:14:00] guesting, and speaking on stages, traditional advertising, like putting your book up on a billboard in Times Square or something like that.

So a bunch of random tours can see it. It’s not gonna sell books. I even had a client tell me once that she was on Good Morning America. And sold zero books. Zero, zero.

AJ: We were on Good Morning America and sold zero books.

NIck: Now I know two people that that’s happened with, and so that traditional advertising of pr, public relations type stuff, little three minute clip here and there on a big talk show.

Doesn’t sell books, it’s boots on the ground. Consistent building trust, winning over, providing value to your target customer over a long period of time. That’s what sells books. And so it’s just different. It’s new. And so that’s what Book Thinkers exist for is we help people navigate that. You know, they’re again, spending decades of their life learning something really unique years of their life, putting it together.

And then they’ll knock on our door three months [00:15:00] after launch and they’ll say, nobody bought my book. Can you please help me pick up the pieces? And that is sad because these people are special. Their book has the potential to change lives, and that’s what they set out to do. But. They never invested in the marketing side of things.

AJ: Hmm. So what would you, ’cause I agree with all that and we’ve seen it and studied it and been a victim of it in some cases. Um, what would you say are the best things, the best mediums, the best vehicles that you have seen that actually helps authors sell books today?

NIck: I think that trust can be built in one minute increments through short form thought leadership, video content, which we can unpack in a minute.

It can be built over a 30 to 60 minute podcast interview, or over an hour on stage when you’re presenting. Those are my three favorite formats, and in a lot of ways, you can retain and consistently promote to those people if you can collect their email as well. Mm-hmm. In any one of those formats. So through short form video content, I love Instagram [00:16:00] and I love LinkedIn as mature content platforms where you can actually sell through to an audience.

Mm-hmm. They might have slightly less viral potential than maybe TikTok does, but it’s easier to retain that person consistently, provide them value when their trust over time and sell to them. So I love Instagram and LinkedIn as more mature platforms, especially for the. Personal development and business type content that we love.

Mm-hmm. Fiction is a little bit different. I think you could sell a lot of fiction books on TikTok, not so much nonfiction. I think with podcasting, who sells better than the author? Mm. And so, well actually, the person whose life has changed from the book might sell better than the author. That’s fair.

Right. But I think if the author has a chance to show up for 30 to 60 minutes on a podcast, tell their backstory. Build a relationship with the audio listener or the video listener, share some background stories, like really build it up. Then talk about why it matters so much and who they’re best positioned to serve.

It’s a great platform [00:17:00] to sell books. And then I think the last piece is that in-person presentation, which BBG knows all about.

AJ: Yeah. Well I love that too. And I think people really underestimate the power of the podcast medium, and they forego that for more traditional, you know, larger. Larger scale media such as national TV and radio.

What is it about the podcast niche that you guys have seen work so well At Book Thinkers?

NIck: I think you can get hyper niche. I think you can serve your target client and I think that, uh, what’s nice about podcasting is you can get really targeted like that.

Yeah. So

NIck: we were talking about this earlier today with you and with Rory that.

Impact and virality. Oftentimes they sit on opposite ends of the social media or podcasting spectrum. So content that reaches more people by definition, has to be slightly more general than niche content, which has higher sell through. And so couple of years ago when I launched a book, I put this to the test myself, and I went [00:18:00] on a lot of smaller niche podcasts, and I had amazing experiences selling through at a much higher rate.

Not only because the podcaster was more. I’d say enthusiastic about the content because it was solving a problem that their audience had. Mm-hmm. They were really proud to have me on the show. Um, off. I think if you can be a big guest for a small podcast, they also put in a lot more effort in their preparation.

AJ: Oh, that’s good. Yeah. Everybody needs to write that down.

NIck: They do. Yeah. There’s this misconception that you have to go on the biggest podcast possible.

That’s so true. Yeah,

NIck: those, those podcasts oftentimes do the least amount of prep work. They have the most shallow conversations, and then they do the least to promote the episode.

They don’t collaborate with you on their Instagram posts. They’re not out there posting 10 or 15 times about your podcast on every platform. But the smaller shows, they really hustle like they’re so happy to have you on.

AJ: Oh, that’s a really good, I’d like to just stick there for a second because I think that’s really good because.

I think so many of us think back to, it’s like, oh, I have to be [00:19:00] on Good Morning America, or I have to be on, you know, the top 10 or top 50 biggest podcasts in the world if this is gonna work. Mm-hmm. And the truth is, is that’s not true. That’s, that’s inaccurate, and you’re probably even better suited to be on more small, medium sized podcasts.

What that old saying is like, well, do you wanna be a big fish in a small pond or a small fish in a big pond? Like which one is better for what season of life you’re in? But I love what you said also is the more niche the podcast is, the more targeted the audience, which. That helps the sell through rate, right?

The bigger the audience, the wider and more general it is by nature. Mm-hmm. So if you don’t have a super general, you know, topic appeal, then it’s gonna be surface level.

NIck: Yes. And you can also stand out as a guest on that podcast and disrupt the listeners. Normal tendencies to just press play and then kind of zone out.

If you [00:20:00] are a dynamic presenter, if you are leagues above everybody else that’s been on that podcast. There’s a Malcolm Gladwell book that I’m thinking about for the first time and connecting it to this, and I don’t remember if it was out, I think it was Outliers where he talked about this idea of big fish, small pond, small fish, big pond, that in the world of athletics, if you are a superior athlete, you’re much better staying at a small school.

And standing head and shoulders above everybody else as a way to stand out compared to going to a bigger school where now everybody’s competing on the same level and you don’t stand out as much. Mm-hmm. So you have a, a far better success rate to be an outlier, to be a standout if you are that big fish.

In a small pond. And so if you go on some of these really big podcasts, you’re competing with the largest personal brands on the planet. People who have spent decades of their life learning how to present their content with all this amazing enthusiasm. It’s tough to stand out, but if you go after the smaller or medium sized shows in your [00:21:00] niche and you’re great at what you do, it’s a lot easier just to, I think.

Have the host help you present, you know, have the host help you promote the content because they’re just so proud of what they did with you.

AJ: So how do you find these? Like what are some like best practices for the listeners that they’re going? Yes, Nick, that’s what I needed to hear. I need to find these other podcasts.

Where do we go find them?

NIck: You should hire book thinkers. What I will do though, is I wasn’t the

AJ: tee yet for you.

NIck: I’ll give you some of the strategies that we use for free, and if you want help implementing them, we are happy to do that. So back in 2020, it was my goal to start a podcast. I realized in 2020 that I now had access to all of my favorite authors.

And so within the first 10 episodes, and I won’t name any names, but we had a lot of author celebrities on the show. As a result of that hot start we had. 15 to 20 inbound inquiries from my show every single week from PR companies and independent publishers, publishers, self-publishing services companies or independent [00:22:00] authors wanting to feature their content.

And every pitch looked exactly the same. It was done via email. It was 15 paragraphs long of background, credentials and book summary info. It all sounded the same and it was generic. Hey, podcaster, you should interview X, Y, Z author. It didn’t matter if you were the best thing since sliced bread. I was deleting the email.

It was too much for me to consume. I was too busy. You got lost in the noise. Just submitting an email inquiry to me and. After a few months of like literally a hundred of these same exact cookie cutter templated emails to me, I just became shocked at how transactional the industry was. And I reached out to a bunch of our book promotion clients and I said, how many of you are paying for services like this?

And a lot of them were. And there were three things that they all had in common. One, there was no guaranteed deliverable. So with our service, we provide a guaranteed deliverable. If you buy four shows, you’ll get four shows. If you buy 25 shows, you’ll get 25 shows [00:23:00]

AJ: versus a monthly retainer or mm-hmm.

NIck: Number two was, uh. They were getting placed outside of their niche. So again, they weren’t presenting to their target customer. So their message might have been great, but it was falling on deaf ears because they weren’t presenting to the

AJ: people. Because it’s not about how big the show is, it’s who has my audience.

NIck: Exactly. And the last piece, which I think a lot of people were very unhappy about was they were in these fixed contracts where they had to work with that agency for six months or 12 months. So at Book Thinkers, no fixed contract month to month. We have to win you back every single month by putting you in front of the right audience.

And delivering value. So here’s a little bit about our process, and feel free to steal this if you’re an author or anybody really listening that wants to be on more podcasts, instead of sending a pitch via DM or email offer to get on a call, that’s a big differentiator, novel idea. Yeah. I’ve been pitched talk to someone since 2020.

I’ve been pitched. Hunt 500 a thousand times for authors to be on my [00:24:00] show. Nobody’s ever offered to get on a call. Learn more about why I started the podcast, what my interests are, make their pitch, confirm that it’s a good fit, and then introduce me, not a single person. So that’s our secret. We reach out to podcasters.

Hey, aj, we just brought on a brand new author. He or she would be an amazing fit for your show. Can I jump on a quick 15 minute call? Tell you more about him or her. That’s it. By the time we’re on the show, we learn the backstory. Why’d you start the podcast? Who are your best guests so far? Who are your dream guests?

What subjects are you just so passionate about? We confirm it’s a good fit for our client, which is part of the due diligence that we make an educated pitch. The likelihood that you say yes, and then we’ll take our clients consistently goes through the roof.

AJ: You mean you’re actually having real life conversations?

NIck: Yes. Believe it or not,

AJ: I mean, I think this is a really important moment. I. For everyone who’s listening to just like, stop whatever you’re doing and [00:25:00] listen to the importance of what’s being said, which is this whole like, rinse and repeat, copy paste. Uh, just work the numbers. Like there’s a, there’s a time for that and there’s also a time to go.

I need to do my research. I need to pick up the phone. I need to have a real life conversation. I need to build a relationship. I need to make a sales pitch, not just blanket market as many people as humanly possible and see what sticks.

NIck: Yeah, and there are so many AI tools coming out, and I get pitched on all of them because I am an author.

Hey, you should check out our new AI software for pitching you on podcasts. It’s the same problem. They’re just spam emailing podcasters who somehow they bought their information, like, I’m never going to take one of those spam emails and have that person on my podcast. I’m looking for direct referrals.

Rory, in the last couple of weeks introduced me to Ryan Leak and Dr. Benjamin Hardy. They’re coming on the Book Thinkers podcast because Rory made a direct introduction. Mm-hmm. Or somebody on your team did that introduction [00:26:00] means something because I know Rory. Yeah. And I know you. And when you say I Great.

Understand your podcast Nick. This is a great guest. I’m willing to make the intro. I’ll say yes, but if you just spam me via email every week with a list of new people, I’m never gonna take them. So that’s our secret. We get on calls, we get to know the podcasters, we get to know the authors. We only make an introduction if it makes sense.

AJ: I love that. And you’re putting together actual. Relational pieces that fit for both parties. Yes. Which I think really makes a difference. I can tell you similar to you, it’s like we get cold pitched daily of guests on this. I bet. Out of the seven years since this podcast has been live, we’ve accepted two in seven years of a cold pitch.

That’s it. Very, very rarely. But if somebody personally says, Hey aj, I got a great guest for you, 50 50. It’s 50 50, they’re coming on the show, assuming they’re a right fit. But again, it’s [00:27:00] back to, it’s a trusted relationship. It’s that transfer of trust and it’s a real actual conversation, not just a blanket email.

So I think that that was significant enough to talk about that for a minute. Um, now the other thing you said is presentations. Why do presentations sell books?

NIck: I’m still in the process of learning more about this. I’m stepping into the world of public speaking as we know it, just because I see so much value in it.

I think a couple of things. Number one. That presentation in person, you can retain so much more of it. That’s my belief. I mean, 80% of the 80% of the information that flows into our brain is visual, and so getting in front of another human being where they can experience you in your entirety, they get to see how you move, see how you feel, see how you talk.

I think that it just builds such a deeper relationship. Now, obviously there are speakers that sell books in the back of the room. But then there are also speakers [00:28:00] that negotiate those books into their fee. And so that’s the brilliant way of doing it is instead of selling one-to-one, you’re selling one to many by doing the speaking engagement.

I always think of 80 20 selling what 20% of people can sell 80% of your books. It’s event planners and conference hosts. And so that’s something that I learned from you and uh, I’m stepping into a lot more.

AJ: Well, I’ll tell you one other thing that I would add to that, that is. Not strategic whatsoever, but just a bonus ad for everybody.

Think about the last time you went to any sort of event. Like just yesterday, I came home from going to an Atlanta Braves game. I also came home with a suitcase full of stuff IE souvenirs, right? There is a human tendency when you have seen someone speak live. When you have been to an event, you want a memento.

You want a souvenir, especially if it’s a signed one, right? It’s a signature piece of me being present and live in attendance at this [00:29:00] thing. Saw that Speaker live, got my book signed. Gonna put it on the shelf. What we have found is just as many people buy these books at events, speaking in events for souvenirs from mementos as they do to actually read them.

Now, of course. We want them to read them, but however, I would just encourage anyone who’s listening, it doesn’t even matter if you’re getting paid to go and speak, go speak for the sake of actual branding awareness, marketing awareness, because people will wanna copy just because they were in the audience.

NIck: Yeah. The first time an event host told me, Hey, I have 200 people in the audience and I want 200 copies of your book. What kind of deal can you give me? I’m like, I just sold 200 books in one conversation.

AJ: Amen.

NIck: One conversation. Yeah. Power. So it’s amazing power.

AJ: I mean, it’s being power of proximity, right?

It’s being in the room.

NIck: And also what’s fun about Books as a business card as a souvenir, is that people don’t throw away books. People donate books sometimes, but people don’t throw them away. There’s something weird about a book.

I agree. Like too much

NIck: effort went into it. You can’t throw it [00:30:00] away.

Yeah.

NIck: Right. Even though it’s just paper, like the Amazon cardboard box that your book came in, you can’t throw it away. And so it will exist in your environment forever. And that person who brought your book home will always be thinking in the back of their head about you. Now if they read the book, which would be amazing, then it also exists as a trophy in their environment, reminding them of the amazing thing that they learned, which is also really cool.

AJ: I love that. That’s so good. Okay. I have just a few other things I wanna talk about before I let you escape ’cause you’ve been with me all day. Um, so this whole concept of all this work we have to do as authors to get to the launch day, to get the book out into the world, it’s a lot of work. You just talked about the marketing and being on podcasts and speaking and.

How disappointing it is for some authors to get all the way to that and then nothing sells and then they call you three, six, nine months later ’cause they didn’t know you existed and they’re like, oh, I think there’s some really important wisdom in this whole concept of going, we do all this work up until the book launches.

What [00:31:00] needs to continue to happen after the book launches? ’cause this isn’t just about launch day, right? There’s a lot that leads up to that. But we want the book to keep selling. Yes, we do. So how do do that? We

NIck: do. We have to wake up every single day and ask ourselves, how do I sell another book? Today. Mm.

Because selling books leads to changing lives, and that’s why we all get into this. And the best form of marketing is a changed life. And so if you want more business as a result of your book, you need to continue to change lives. I think one of the greatest books for getting this into somebody’s head is The Compound Effect by Darren Hardy.

I’ve read that book so many times, and it says that small steps in the right direction when repeated over a very long period of time will lead to disproportionately. Positive outcomes, the same content. That I was producing back in 2017 that only reached a hundred people is the same content that I produced today that reaches tens of thousands of people.

You need to stay in the game long enough to make [00:32:00] a difference. And so yes, your book launch is an excuse to talk about the book a lot. It’s fun, it’s new, it’s sprint hot off the press, and people will share the content. They’ll be excited about the content, but it’s your responsibility as the author to continue that excitement for as long as you can see.

Sustain it, and I think that’s for at least a couple of years, if not forever. I think the longer a book shows success and the more people that it positively impacts, the better chance that it does kind of catch that forever momentum. Totally. You know, whatever they say, 10,000 books. If you can get over that mark, your book will sell forever, and I believe that.

If you have 10,000 little soldiers out there changing lives and people just can’t stop talking about it, you’ll sell books forever. So stay in the game as long as possible. What do you need for that? I believe you need content. I believe you need content that was filmed when you were excited about the book, that you can then distribute forever and continue to repurpose, which is another service that we offer at Book Thinkers.

AJ: Yeah, but you also do [00:33:00] it in a very specific way. So let’s talk about the ki, the kind of content that actually converts. And this is, again, we’re talking specific for books and book content and thought leadership, but the way you do it is very specific. So what are some of the things that make the way that you produce content for authors and books that’s really unique?

NIck: Yeah. We love to build content that follows the following formula. Kind of each video should start with a hook. That hook pulls your target customer, that niche that you serve pulls your target customer into the video and rejects anybody that’s not a good fit. Mm-hmm. You don’t want monotony or mediocrity.

You don’t want people who don’t agree with you or aren’t going to pay you money. Consuming your content because you made it too general pulls your target customer in, rejects anybody that’s not a good fit for you. You might credentialize yourself quickly, but you move into providing value as fast as possible.

The value that we typically pull out of the book is the value that serves your [00:34:00] target customer as an author. And so it’s your goal to start to share that content. Give your target customer a preview for what they might be able to learn inside of that book. Demonstrate your value, demonstrate that you can solve that problem or help them build that skill.

And then right as you hit that sweet spot, right as you start to prove that to your potential customer, you move into a call to action. Tell them where they should go next. Should they get a free copy of your audio book? Should they buy a physical copy of your book? Should they follow you on social media or share the video with somebody that it might be able to positively impact?

There are a lot of great options for that call to action, but that’s the formula. Hook your target customer, provide value, and then tell them where to go if they would like to continue that learning.

AJ: Okay, I have three follow up questions for you. Hit me since I’ve spent, you spent eight hours with you doing this.

Number one. Length is important. So what’s the ideal duration and why?

NIck: Of the entire video or the hook?

AJ: I Or both. The whole video or both? Yeah, both. [00:35:00] Give us all you got.

NIck: What’s beautiful about today is that all of the major social media platforms love the same kind of content, which is short form video, short form, meaning less than 60 seconds, ideally and vertically cut.

So that same video that you film is good for LinkedIn. It’s good for Instagram, it’s good for Facebook. It’s good for TikTok. It’s good for YouTube. It’s good for X. It’s good for everything. Five years ago, you would’ve to create that same video in five different formats with five different dimensions in order to satisfy all the social platforms Today, that same video is good for everything.

Can

AJ: we talk about just for one second, why? Why, why is that? Like what changed?

NIck: Well, unfortunately, I think that social media companies realized that. Variability increases dopamine, so the more often you can get somebody to the next piece of content, the shorter the content is, the longer you can retain them in the platform.

So all of the platforms over time have just gotten to [00:36:00] this short form video content, like what’s the smallest amount of time that we can hook your attention and then move on.

AJ: Oh, interesting.

NIck: Yeah. Hmm. And I hope that over time there’s this reversion back to longer form content that’s maybe a little bit more meaningful.

But you can still deliver a ton of value in a short form video.

AJ: But it’s hard.

NIck: It is hard.

AJ: It’s hard. So I think that’s one of the things, that’s why I asked the duration question, because I think we all underestimate. Oh, that’s so short, right? Uh, brevity is the essence of wisdom. And it’s so hard, right?

It’s so easy to talk for five minutes. It’s so difficult to get it all in in 30 to 60 seconds. What’s your best tip on how to do that

NIck: editing film a three minute video, edit it down to 30 seconds later by removing anything that’s not necessary.

AJ: And that’s, uh, the hard cold truth, right. Or spend more

NIck: time scripting.

So there’s that. I forget who said it, but it’s like, oh, I apologize for the length of this letter. If I had more time, I [00:37:00] would’ve written a shorter one.

Mm-hmm.

NIck: So it’s this idea that it takes time. To create a short, concise message. Oh yeah. I love the analogy that a surgeon, while performing surgery doesn’t make extra cuts ’cause it’s not necessary.

And a salesperson, we’re all selling. A salesperson shouldn’t use extra language when selling, and it takes a lot of time to condense your message. That’s why a book takes years to write. Mm-hmm. Rather than you could get the same amount of content in an hour on a podcast. But if you want to get the right message, the juiciest content, it takes time.

AJ: So true. Like, again, back to just even the podcast, like to fill 45 minutes. No problem. If you wanted me to fit this all in 15 minutes, I’m gonna need to strategically outline plan. You know, do a, if you wanted to be in seven minutes, I need weeks to be thinking right? Planning, editing, reviewing. Tightening.

It’s like the shorter it is, the more planning or the more editing, uh, which is the easier option of [00:38:00] the do. Uh, but I think that’s really important, right? It’s like don’t worry about how long it is. Make sure you have a good editing team.

NIck: Yeah. Yeah. Shorter content does typically perform better in terms of view count, but I think we’re noticing a shift right now, and we’re talking about this today, which is that view count doesn’t indicate sell through.

AJ: That’s right.

NIck: Right. So impact and virality are on opposite ends of the spectrum, and so in the thought leadership space, I think shorter is not always better. I think if you can use that full 30 to 60 seconds, sometimes a 62nd video might sell five times more than the 32nd video that got more views, so, mm-hmm.

Yeah, we’re still. Collecting data and analyzing this. But that’s a trend that I’m starting to see.

AJ: And it changes, right? And it changes. And it changes,

NIck: which is why a lot of big publishing companies and then the big book PR companies don’t touch social media is because it changes all the time. All the

AJ: time.

NIck: Yeah.

AJ: Now, let’s talk about the call to action because we had a brief conversation earlier today about how many authors you work [00:39:00] with who refuse to give any sort of call to action at the end of their videos to sell their own book. Why

NIck: you would think if they believed their book had the power to change lives, they wouldn’t be able to stop talking about it.

But I think most people, they don’t wanna come across as salesy. There is still this idea that the used car salesman is jamming something down your throat. They don’t wanna be perceived that way. Oftentimes the business professionals that we work with, they’ve spent decades in an executive type role, C-level, big company.

They wear a suit and tie every day. They have to be very careful about how they communicate. They wanna be perceived as opulent or articulate, and they don’t wanna come across as salesy and enthusiastic and just jamming the message down your throat. But that’s the, that’s something that we’re overcoming with them, is the idea that if you genuinely believe your book has the power to change somebody’s life, you shouldn’t be able to stop talking about it.

AJ: Hmm. You know, I had two thoughts [00:40:00] when you were talking. One is something that, um, a good friend of mine, Hillary Billings always says is that when you get emotional, you get, you get promotional, right? Mm-hmm. And I love that concept of like, if you really believe in the concept of this, right, you’ve gotta get emotional.

And when you do, you get promotional, which is what your reader readers will do if they actually make it through the book, right? In theory. Hopefully that’s the plan. And then the second thing that you had me thinking about is this. It’s a sales issue of, Hey, I don’t wanna be perceived as salesy, or somehow selling is a bad thing.

Uh, like, what do you think we’re doing here? Right? It’s like, I need you to pull out your money and buy the book, and if you do, I will give you value, right? Like there’s like this weird fear based or perception based thing of, hey, sales is a bad thing, or it’s a slimy thing. And so I’m just curious, have you seen anything that really helps authors get over that?[00:41:00]

Because I know, ’cause we work with a ton of authors at both our publishing and print as well as at Brand Builders Group where we know that unless they get over that ain’t know books being sold, ain’t no list being hit and ain’t no lives being changed. So I would just love to see like, have you seen anything that really helps authors overcome this?

NIck: I’ll give a great example from today. I. Because I watched you and Rory both do this really well. Instead of selling the book in every single video, you’re giving away the audio book for free. Mm. And so for anybody listening or watching the podcast today, I think you should spend some time learning a little bit more about what Rory and AJ did for Wealthy and Well-known.

This is Credit to Brand Builders Group and Mission-Driven Press for this idea of giving the audiobook away for free. Upselling the physical book. And that’s because the book is a business card for your businesses. Mm-hmm. Which is beautiful. You can’t feel guilty giving away an audio book for free, can you?

I mean, that’s not sales. That’s [00:42:00] just like, please hear, I’m being of free value. So that’s genius.

AJ: Well, you know, and it’s interesting as one of the reasons that we did that is because what we wanted is for everyone else to have that same no pressure feel to promote the book. Mm. Right. It’s like it was easier for us, right.

To go, hey. Can we provide your audience with a free value, a free audio book versus, Hey friend, would you please promote my book to every single person on your list? Would you mind doing a live about this? And those are big asks, especially when a lot of people have been curating their audiences for years.

It’s a big ask, but to go, Hey, we have something for free. Added value, no cost for your audience. Can we give it to them? It was a much easier ask. So again, it was like our own, how do we overcome our own slight sales resistance? Um, we don’t really have sales resistance. Like we are happily shoving this down.

All the throats all around us. Yeah.

NIck: You said you even reached out to your friends and family. Like beware. Yeah. Beware for the [00:43:00] next six months. Yeah. This is

AJ: all you’re gonna hear about. Um, but, but also back to what you said, it’s because we deeply believe and are truly convicted that if you read this book and you actually apply it.

It will change your life. Mm-hmm. It will change your business. It will make a significant difference. We actually believe that. So to not share it is a disservice. Right,

NIck: right. Yeah. So many authors undersell to their own audience because people aren’t aware of the book. I think here, here’s a another funny thing that we do sometimes, which is we will have an author film, a Call to action, and then we’ll attach it to their other videos.

So they’ll only do it one time. Ah. ’cause they feel so uncomfortable doing. It’s like, come on, just try it one time and then we’ll attach it. Once they see that it works and that it’s not that icky. The other thing, the other beautiful thing about short form video content that’s attracting your target customer.

Providing value. And then you say, the call to action is, you’re not selling to anybody that’s not a good fit.

Mm.

NIck: They have to make it to the end of the video, which is [00:44:00] very specific. Mm-hmm. About your content in order to hear the pitch.

AJ: That’s good. Yeah. That’s a good reminder to everyone. It’s like they’ve already made it through the filter.

They wanna hear what you have next, make sure you give them something. Right. And I would just also encourage, as someone who had to do this like at least 30 times today, it’s like building a muscle. Right. And the more times that you give the CTA, the easier it gets, the better it gets, and the funner it gets.

NIck: Yeah. You started to have a lot of fun with vocal variety and you were focusing on different words, and you said it, so you had a lot of fun with it.

AJ: But it didn’t start that way. I was like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like in the beginning, right? And it’s like, I do this for a living, and it’s like, wait, what am I trying to say?

What am I trying to do? That’s the power of having a good coach, right? Mm-hmm. Right. I think for all of us, it’s like. Getting your book out into the world is not just about the writing. You said that earlier. Right. Robert Kiyosaki says, it’s not the best written book. Right. It’s the best selling book. That is a discipline.

It’s a skillset. Mm-hmm. [00:45:00] And it’s one that you guys really help with at Book Thinkers. Now the CTA, just one last quick question about this. What are good CTAs to help someone buy your book?

NIck: I think asking people to share the video with somebody that it might be a good fit for. So they’re, they’re not buying it themselves, but they feel comfortable like, Hey, this message could really help a few people that come to mind.

So that’s a good call to action. I think your call to action today was great, which is comment the word audio and we’ll send you a free copy of the audio book. You’re integrating your social media accounts with many chats. Mm-hmm. So the. DM with the audio book link will automatically go through. I love inviting people to comment and share their thoughts below.

Mm-hmm. And then you can engage them in a conversation between before you pitch them on your book. Yeah. So if you’re just selling the book directly, it’s like, comment down below, let me know what you think. If you wanna move the conversation to dms, I’m happy to have it. Mm. If you’re talking about something that’s intellectually controversial.

Which can make for great content. That way you’re not asking somebody [00:46:00] to marry you on the first date, but you’re having a conversation with them about the book before you ask them to buy it. And if you have a team to help you support that, that can be really helpful too.

AJ: I love that. Um, all right, one last question about book marketing and then I have a list of some hot questions, um, that I’m just super curious about, and I’m sure our audience will gain some benefit from this.

So, okay, we’re 2025, right? The landscape has changed drastically over the last five years, uh, when it comes to book publishing, right? Mm-hmm. As you mentioned this earlier, the barrier to entry to have a published book is basically none, right? For very little money. You could have a book out into the world.

That doesn’t mean it’s a great book, doesn’t mean it’s well published or well edited, but you could have a book, right? So with this emerging trend of the last time I checked, it was like. Tens of thousands of new titles are published every year. Think about that for a second, tens of thousands. [00:47:00] What would you recommend people do to break through the noise?

Like that’s so much.

NIck: So many different ways I could answer this question, but the first thing that came to mind was invite your existing community into the book writing process with you. You did a great job. Rory did a great job at this. I think it was popularized a few years ago when James Clear took a blog.

Mm-hmm. Where he collected a lot of data and then decided to put that into a. Book. Mark Manson did the same thing. And there are more and more examples of people using their social media to invite their audience into the book process, whether it’s split testing titles or cover designs, or just sharing him writing today.

And here’s the. Here’s the question that I have for my audience, and I’d invite you to give me some feedback on it. Or, you know, like releasing content through social media in micro videos or in blog formats, or on podcasts and just testing the waters. It’s like doing a minimally viable product before you release a finished product.

Good to [00:48:00] confirm product market fit, and. I also had this realization, I mean, I talked a lot about the book I released a year and a half ago on social media in advance of the launch, and I got feedback. But something funny happened when I started to do a lot of podcasts on the subject, which is that.

People started asking me questions that were a na, a natural progression of my thinking and my teaching and my strategies that I didn’t write about in the book that I wish I did. Hmm. So another thing is, as you are sharing the book content and collecting feedback throughout the journey, which will make your launch more successful because people are more bought in, they feel like they were part of the process.

Of course they want to talk more about the book. Like, I help contribute to that even in a small way. Yeah, that’s good. The other thing is. Test the content in a live format on podcasts and see what people are asking about as you start to share these stories and strategies, because there will be things you missed.

There will be things that you wish you wrote about. Hmm. And those podcasts, Hey, I’m writing a book and. [00:49:00] It’s coming out a year from now, but I wanna start to test some of the theories that I have in the book. Do you mind if I send you some sample copy? We could chat about it on your podcast. It also gives you an existing audience to tap back into when it’s time to launch the book so you can go back on, have a second impression with the same audience.

Now it’s time to have your call to action to actually pre-order the book or give it away for free. And so it’s just involving like your existing community in the book process a little bit more.

AJ: I love that. Let’s have ’em come along for the ride.

NIck: Yes.

AJ: Now, before I ask you these last couple of questions, if people wanna learn more about what you do at Book Thinkers, where should they go?

NIck: They can go to book thinkers.com and there’s a contact form there.

AJ: All right, so book thinkers.com. Click the contact form, learn more if people just wanna follow you. Like where, what social media platform should they go to? What’s your handle?

NIck: Instagram is our largest social media following, and I think it’s our most vibrant community as well.

So if you want to be around a lot of [00:50:00] other nonfiction, business and personal development, book lovers and authors, check us out on Instagram at Book Thinkers as well

AJ: at Book thinkers, and we’ll put both of those links in the show notes, which is a great segue to my rapid fire questions. Now, you’ve already mentioned a few of these, so cannot be one you’ve already mentioned.

Right. What’s one nonfiction book that has changed your life?

NIck: The Four Hour Work Week by Tim Ferriss.

AJ: Why

NIck: that book took me from a cubicle to a remote job traveling the world. Hmm. And then I eventually used the principles in that book to build book thinkers, and I became detached from my business in a lot of ways by automating, delegating, or eliminating low impact activities and replacing them with high impact activities.

I owe so much to Tim Ferriss. A lot of times I say he’s my spirit animal. He doesn’t know who I am, but the four hour work week changed my life.

AJ: I love that. And that’s so good. And it’s a great book, right? It is a

NIck: great book.

AJ: You’re gonna work for more than four hours, but it’s a great [00:51:00] book. Most underrated marketing channel for authors.

NIck: Ooh, small podcasts. We talked a little bit about this, but again, podcasting people have this idea they have to go after the big show, small to medium niche podcasts where you can over perform and the host can fall in love with your message and help you promote it everywhere. Super underrated.

AJ: I love that whole conversation around like.

Go pick a host that’s so excited to have you. They’re gonna promote the pants off of it.

Yes.

AJ: So much better than being on a show that doesn’t even get a mention.

Mm-hmm.

AJ: So much better. I love that. It was one of my favorite things you said today. Favorite tool or app for productivity right now?

NIck: Mm. It’s the, my favorite tool or app for productivity is this kitchen timer box that I have in my office where I can put my phone in it, set it to an hour, lock the box, and I can’t touch my phone.

I have tried so many other ways to get off of my [00:52:00] phone. Mm. Muting notifications, setting time limits. None of it works, but putting it in the little kitchen timer box for an hour or more at a time and locking it. That thing’s indestructible and I am laser focused.

AJ: Fascinating. How often do you put it in the box?

NIck: At least a few times a week.

AJ: And this is when you’re just trying to get undistracted focused thinking, get something done, put the phone away. No distractions. Lock it away.

NIck: Yes. And sometimes I’ll be mindlessly scrolling on Instagram reels and I’ll get a video about how Instagram is killing my brain, and that’ll be the, okay, I’m going to put it in the box now, but it’s

AJ: in the box.

Yes. I love that. What? What? What’s the box called?

NIck: I think it’s called Kitchen Safe Kitchen. It’s literally you could, I think it was actually designed for in a kitchen you could put cookies in it or something like that, that you’re having a tough time staying away from, and you could lock it for 24 hours or something like that.

But I put my phone in it.

AJ: That’s good. I might be ordering one of these after this. Yeah, and they’re cheap too.

NIck: That’s like an under [00:53:00] $50 hack for everybody.

AJ: Yeah, that’s good. Like one of, like one of my big, uh, new Year’s resolutions this year was um, once the workday is over, I leave my phone in a different room.

Right. And it’s been really helpful. ’cause if I really want it, I have to get up and go find it. Mm-hmm. Right. And I’m like, where did I put that? Dead gum thing. But it’s been really good. But it would be better if I just put it in a safe. So can’t go find it and you can’t touch it. Yes. I like that. Okay. I like that.

That’s good. One piece of advice that you’d give to a new first time author who’s trying to promote their book,

NIck: slow and Steady wins the race. Mm. No matter how many times you read Aesop’s Fable, the Tortoise and the Hare, the Tortoise always win. If you have smaller expectations, you won’t burn out. You won’t be so disappointed.

Slow and steady wins the race. The best form of marketing is a changed life. That’s what you’re in it for. That’s good. Not how many books you sell, but how many lives you can change. Just like it’s not about how many followers you have, but how much money you make per follower. Same thing with the book.

You’re not trying to get it out to people that don’t truly [00:54:00] need it for the sake of that vanity metric of, I sold X number of books. You’re just trying to get it to the right people, and you do that slow and consistently and

AJ: you cannot say that enough.

NIck: Slow and steady. Yeah.

AJ: Pause, rewind. Play that again.

Last question. What does Influential, now that you’re on the influential personal brand podcast, what does influential mean to you?

NIck: Over time, I’ve realized that it means impact.

AJ: Mm.

NIck: If you are a person of influence, you should be making a positive impact on this beautiful planet.

AJ: I love that. Yeah. And impact

NIck: comes through specificity.

AJ: Well, we talked a lot about that today. Yeah. Right. And the importance of, again, back even to the content, right? It’s like you have to be super specific to get something shared in 30 to 60 seconds, but specificity matters. But I love that it’s impact. Y’all. If y’all have not already written this down, go to book thinkers.com.

Learn more about what Nick and his team do. If you wanna follow them on [00:55:00] social, get book reviews, learn about authors, learn about all the books that have changed your life and so much more. Check out at Book Thinkers at Instagram. Nick, this was amazing. So many good tips, so much insight and wisdom. Thank you so much for being on the show today.

For everyone else who’s listening, stick around for the recap episode, which will be coming up next, and we will see you soon on the influential personal brand.

Ep 601: From Obscurity to Influence: Rory Vaden on the Path to Becoming Wealthy and Well-Known 

Stephen: [00:00:00] Hey guys. Welcome back to the show. As you know, we always set ourselves apart by bringing you amazing guests, world class thought leaders that do world class things, but more importantly, help others do world class things. Our special guest today is none other than Rory Vaden, New York Times bestselling author, world class speaker.

He is co-founder of the Brand Builders Group and a entity that I personally partner with myself over the number of years. To make sure that I’m trying to do my impact and also become one of his mission driven messengers. Rory Vaden. Dude, welcome back to Build Man. So good to see you, man. It’s

Rory: good to, good to be with you in person.

Yes. I don’t think we’ve ever done an in-person podcast interview. No,

Stephen: this is the first No, I’m digging it. I’m digging it. That’s good. So, hey, like, I’m wanna jump straight in. We got get, you’re a very busy man nowadays. You got a lot of attention. Uh, you’re doing a lot of book launches, you’re doing a lot of personal branding.

You are the thank you ma, as far as far as I’m concerned.

Rory: Thank you. Uh,

Stephen: I legitimately don’t know anybody else better in the business than you guys. Thank you seriously. Brand Builders Group has been a huge asset, uh, to me in my journey. Um, and I know I’ve been a huge asset to so many other personal brands, uh, book launches and [00:01:00] everything else.

I mean, there’s some of the best known books in the marketplace right now have come through your doors, so thank you. Yeah.

Rory: Yeah. I mean, we’re, you know, we’re serving mission driven messengers and, and the only thing we’re doing is try to help, uh, you know, in our case it’s. It’s, it’s like a ministry. We feel God saying, Hey, help my people be heard.

Yeah. And help the good guys win. Yeah. Uh, and not just have a world where the best marketer wins mm-hmm. Rather than the best idea wins. Yeah. Or the, the more, the most service centered person. So we’re really just dedicated to trying to help. People who genuinely wanna help the world. Yeah. And uh, it’s working, it’s working right now.

Yeah. We got a good thing going.

Stephen: Yeah. And no, it’s, it’s not just working, it’s scaling, which I, I absolutely love. As somebody who’s been, you know, part of the picture now for several years, got to watch almost the, almost the inception, right. Of Brand Builders group. And, uh, to see you guys doing such amazing work in the marketplace.

It’s amazing. You know, I, it is funny you mentioned the me driven messengers, helping them be heard. Yes. Right. And, uh, you and I did a podcast, it was a couple years ago, and I was like, I think on the podcast, I literally like, got stunned. I’m like, oh man, what? [00:02:00] ’cause you asked me a question, I was like, well, I think I’ve been trying to figure out if I’m worthy of a voice.

Mm. And I think a lot of personal brands or aspiring personal brands, people that maybe have a lot of wisdom and knowledge that maybe haven’t hit the marketplace yet, probably be struggle with that. I wanna start there. Mm-hmm. And then I wanna jump into monetization, but, uh, what are your thoughts there?

Rory: Yeah, I mean. What makes every person worthy of a voice is all the people that they can help.

Mm-hmm.

Rory: We’re not in this for a game of vanity. Mm-hmm. But we’re very much committed to this game for the betterment of humanity. Mm-hmm. And the people that we work with are the people who realize. My message matters not for me.

Yeah. But my message matters for the people that I’m trying to reach, and I think some people frankly hide behind humility. Mm-hmm. And what their, their humility is really [00:03:00] just fear masquerading as humility. Yeah. They’re afraid that they won’t succeed. They’re afraid. People will think they’re stupid.

They’re a, they’re afraid that people will say you’re a copycat or someone else. Who do you think you are? And do you only feel fear when you’re thinking about yourself? Ooh, there is, there is no fear when the mission to serve is clear. Yeah. That’s one of our big bbg mantras. Like, I mean, if you, if you. And this, this is like all types of fear, right?

Like if you go, when you, let’s say you’re driving down the street and there’s a car that’s turned over. Mm-hmm. Right? And you hear somebody yelling, you run over. You’re not, you’re not thinking about how, how does my hair look? Yeah. Like, is my outfit cute? Like, does my breath stink? Like, you’re, you’re not worried about it because you’re going to help somebody.

Yeah. All of us, um, we, we, we, we, the way we like to say it is we say. Um, your highest value is when you’re being your highest value to others. Mm-hmm. And there’s a magical [00:04:00] part of that, that when. Your skills and talents are being used to help somebody else. Yeah. You perform in a, a way that we believe is divine.

We believe this is part of your divine identity. Mm-hmm. That this is the design of your life, that every problem you’ve gone through. Mm-hmm. Every heartbreak, every setback, every struggle, every challenge. It really didn’t have anything to do with you. Mm-hmm. It had everything to do with making you into the person you needed to be.

Yeah. So that one day you could reach back and help somebody else. And you know, of course the, the flagship, uh, yeah. I think I showed you this. So, you know, the, one of our flagship mantras, uh, we, we printed it on the covers like a little Easter egg. You are most powerfully positioned to serve the person you once were.

Mm-hmm.

Stephen: And so we put and all the variations of that person. Totally.

Rory: Yeah. Totally. And, and, and I think when people hear personal branding, you know, sometimes they equate it to like, oh, ego, arrogance, [00:05:00] celebrity, like mm-hmm. Self-centeredness. That’s not it at all. I mean, that, that’s not how we do it. Like to us, your personal brand is not about you.

Mm-hmm. It is a hundred percent about the person that you’re here to serve. And, and the reason that you’re, the reason that you’re worthy is not ’cause you’re worthy. It’s ’cause someone else is worthy. Yes. Yes. And because that person is worthy. It makes your message really important. Yeah. Um, and that makes you important.

And, and I think that’s this great irony is that our, our lives have meaning in the context of other people. And I think one of the great travesties of the world today is like, so many people are depressed because it’s like, I’m seeking happiness. I’m seeking happiness. How do I get happy? Like, what do I have to do to get happy?

Like, what kind of routine? What, what thing, what do I drink? What do I eat? What, what do I wear? What, what do I buy that makes me happy? Mm-hmm. And that. Pursuit leads to depression. Yeah. Because it’s completely self-centered. Mm-hmm. Um, kind of our philosophy on this is like, don’t pursue happiness. Mm-hmm.

[00:06:00] Pursue service. Mm-hmm. And happiness shows up as a byproduct. Yeah. Like you pursue service and purpose shows up as a byproduct because when I’m helping somebody, there’s nothing like the feeling you get when you help somebody.

Stephen: Yeah, absolutely.

Rory: And you, and you realize, and you, you get to experience. This visceral taste of, wow, my life matters.

Not because I’m important, but because I did something to help somebody. Mm-hmm. And that’s what. Personal branding should be about. Yeah. I don’t think that’s what the early wave of social media has been. Yeah. Yeah. But it is the, the, the people who are winning and making real money and making a lasting impact are not just people who are going viral once or writing the algorithm for a few months.

Mm-hmm. It is mission-driven messengers who are dialed in that, that their worth is con is, is inherent because of their desire to serve.

Stephen: Dude, I’m really glad you said all that. And I’ll tell you why. ’cause I, I have personally have a, I have a love hate relationship, uh, with the marketplace. [00:07:00] And if you’re gonna step into a role of influence, doesn’t mean, so you mean influencer or a thought leader or personal brand?

Like, it’s like if you’re, if you have a voice that’s influential to other people. Mm-hmm. Right. To me, there’s a responsibility with that. And at least for me, part of the difficulties that I faced in trying to break through the noise was, I call it the, the degradation of trust. You know, you, you, you kind of alluded to it, the early wave.

It’s like, you know, they built audiences and things of that nature and then maybe didn’t really have the heart of service, maybe, didn’t really do it authentically, uh, maybe hurt some people along the way, whether intentional or accidental, maybe in that selfish capacity. And as a result, you had this wave of the guru versus now what I’m seeing the economy shift to, which is the guide.

Mm-hmm.

Stephen: Right. And these guides are not self-centered. These guys are selfless in that they want to train and help. What would you say to, uh, the marketplace that has, you know, at least in [00:08:00] today’s times, there’s, there’s been a little bit of, you know, trust lost with a lot of, um, various levels of thought leadership and things of that nature and, you know, and.

You know, I think people do want to hear from people that have had this, you know, a similar experience early on, you know, serving the person you used to be and things of that nature. How do we rebuild trust as a personal brand, as it ’cause you know, a lot of our listeners are aspiring entrepreneurs or early stage entrepreneurs, mid stage, like they haven’t quite broken through the seven picker ceiling.

You and I both know you guys did a, uh, an amazing study not that long ago. Mm-hmm. That kind of proves the point of how powerful personal branding is, but they’re also like, well, I don’t wanna be like that guy or that woman, or that person, or, I’m just curious, how do we handle the trust?

Rory: Well, the, the first thing that I would say is.

Um, you know, when people hear about brand Builders group and personal branding, they immediately think like online marketing or social media or podcasts. ’cause we work with a lot of the biggest podcasters in the world. Mm-hmm. And we work with a lot of the, the, the, the most well-known speakers in the world.

Yep. And things like that. Um, but what we have to tell people is don’t think of personal branding [00:09:00] as online, really. Mm-hmm. We define personal branding as the digitization of reputation. Mm-hmm. All this is is an old, this isn’t a new concept, it’s an old concept. It’s really reputation, and reputation is about trust.

And I would say just like so, yes, I think there’s been a lot of people who’ve been taken advantage of and burned by people online who just want to get their hands in their pockets. But that happens every day offline too.

Stephen: That’s true.

Rory: Happens every day with and in

Stephen: every

Rory: industry, every industry, every geography.

And what, what I would say is. You can take advantage of people once. Mm-hmm. Maybe twice. But if you have any type of vision for a sustainable business or brand or m money making machine mm-hmm. You can’t. Can, you can’t continue. You can’t, you can’t scale garbage. Yeah. Right. Like you can take advantage of somebody once.

Mm-hmm. But they’re not gonna refer their friends. They’re not gonna come back again. [00:10:00] And repeat business and referrals and recommendations and endorsements is, is all of business. Mm-hmm. And that hasn’t changed. It’s just multiplied. It’s exponential now because we live in such an online world. Mm-hmm. Um.

So what I would say is it’s the same as it’s always been, right? Like the guy who has a plumbing business. Mm-hmm. There’s some other plumber out there taking advantage of people and double charging and not fixing, doing a good job and all this sort of stuff. Well, at first it may look like he’s winning, but over the course of time, all that business eventually migrates to you.

Yeah. And so I think my encouragement would be, think longer term. Mm-hmm. But my encouragement is go, you gotta remind yourself that this, that if you’re a mission driven messenger, you’re not trying to go viral for a moment. Mm-hmm. You’re not trying to be famous for 15 minutes. You’re trying to make a lasting impact in the world.

Yeah. And that takes time.

Yeah.

Rory: And, and if you do it right, it will last a long time. Mm-hmm. It’s not, we’re not the people. You can’t, we’re not the people who look for [00:11:00] hacks. Right. Yeah. We’re not looking for tricks and gimmicks and, oh, how do I like find a trending audio or like a, a secret hashtag like.

That’s not what it’s about. It’s about reputation. It’s about trust. And if you play that game sooner or later you win. Now the other thing I would say to people that is important about this is in the short term, it may feel like you’re losing.

Mm-hmm.

Rory: But, but you always get paid for how hard you work.

Mm-hmm.

Rory: Sometimes it’s now, but usually it’s not. Oftentimes it’s later. But always, eventually. Mm-hmm. And that’s the secret that most entrepreneurs lose sight of, because honestly, some people get drawn into entrepreneurship with the lure of like riches and mm-hmm. Private jets and like, you know, big balling and fancy watches and like, uh, and, and that’s why they’re like, oh, I’m gonna come in with that.

And, you know, there’s a lot of power to being driven by ambition. There was a big part of my life where I, [00:12:00] I was driven by ambition. Uh, I’ve been driven by competition mm-hmm. For parts of my life. There’s some healthy parts of those that really push you.

Mm-hmm. But

Rory: eventually they kind of like fizzle out.

Yeah. The part that never fizzles out is mission. Yeah. If you can be driven by mission, if you can be driven by service. Then you’re never done, but yet you always feel satisfied and fulfilled. Mm-hmm. And, um, you just gotta be willing to play that, that long game. And I think that’s, you know, the same as it’s been in any generation is, is people are always falling victim to the short term impulses.

Mm-hmm. But the, the people who are breaking through the wall. Are consistently building trust, adding value for the long term.

Stephen: Yeah, dude, that’s so good.

Rory: That’s

Stephen: so

Rory: good.

Stephen: You know, I was also thinking too, so I was very fortunate to get a advanced copy of, uh, wealthy and Well known. Bro, that book is meaty. Oh my gosh.

You fit so much into those pages. You and AJ did a phenomenal job. Thank you. Um, it was funny as I was reading it, it’s very

Rory: tactic. There’s a, an emotional [00:13:00] human part, but then it’s very, bro, it’s, it’s, again, it’s tactical textbook. It’s one of the

Stephen: best books I’ve seen hit the market. Uh, in a long time I’m not, and I’m not just blowing smoke.

Like I’ve had the privilege and honor of, um, being a client, uh, working alongside of you guys on specific projects and really watching you actually truly. Walk out what you write out.

Mm.

Stephen: You really, you guys really do as an organization. And I’ll give you one of the things that you guys really helped me with, because I think a lot of personal brands really face this.

Rory: So before you do that, yeah. Should we give the book away to everybody?

Stephen: Yeah. Let’s do it. Let’s do it. Okay.

Rory: Okay. So, so this is something that we’re doing with our friends as we’re, we’re, yeah. We’re giving away the audio book completely for free. Mm-hmm. So we, uh, the book is obviously available or, you know, depending on when you watch this, it’s, it’s about to come out.

But we’re giving away the audio book for free. If you go to free brand audiobook.com/build, so free brand audiobook.com/build because you’re a friend of Stevens and Stevens is a friend of ours. You we’re [00:14:00] literally, you get the whole book for free on audio. You get it right away, no catches, no catch, nothing to it.

Stephen: Guys, I told you, these people are amazing. I keep telling you guys, man, dude, thank you so much for that.

Yeah, I’m

Stephen: sure everybody’s gonna love that, man. I hope so. Um, again, I, I’m still gonna highly recommend they grab a couple copies for themselves and their friends, because I found myself with a highlight in Ink Pen.

And while the audio book is amazing, and I’ll absolutely love it, I I I, I’m gonna highly suggest they wrap a couple extra copies for that reason. But you like the physical I’m that I like both, man. I’ll listen to the audio books on the airplane or on a jog or on a walk and Yeah, but I have, you know, but that’s good.

And then I’m like, oh, now, now that I’m listening to it in my head I’m like, oh, I wanna highlight that. I’m like, oh, wait a minute. I can’t highlight my, what I’m hearing. So it’s, so, it’s, it’s a, it’s a best of both worlds from my perspective, but sometimes

Rory: I, I, I mostly listen. And then sometimes I’ll buy it just to put it on the shelf, like a, like a trophy, like I conquer, like I conquered that book.

That’s amazing. Yeah.

Stephen: I haven’t thought about that. Maybe I should try that too. But, uh, yeah. You know what, one of the things that it is gonna help, I think a lot of folks do, is one of the things that you [00:15:00] guys have taught me over the number of years, um, is the importance of being authentic. And, you know, I really struggled for a long time to really have a clear message.

Mm.

Stephen: And it wasn’t. For me, it was more along the lines of, there’s so many experiences that I’ve had, right? Mm-hmm. I have a very robust background of challenges and adversities. A lot in business, a lot in life, a lot in relationships, a lot in different varieties. Mm-hmm. And it’s like, okay, I have all this experience.

Um, I think God has given me enough, uh, quite a bit of wisdom with a lot of these experiences. ’cause I look for the lessons. What do I talk about? How do I shape that? How do I, how do I lean in? And, you know, and it was really, really difficult until I really started working with you guys and you guys helped me clarify really what that message is by a filtering process.

Mm-hmm. You know, I think that a lot of people, and this is me talking, right? I think a lot of mission-driven messages that haven’t stepped up to the plate yet aren’t doing so out of fear of wanting to serve, but fear of not knowing what to say. Sure. [00:16:00] So kind of let’s walk through that a little bit.

Rory: Yeah, for sure.

Well, uh, you know, our. We, our full curriculum, we have like 12 different two day experiences. Mm-hmm. Right. Our flagship two day experience is the first one. It’s called Finding Your Brand, which I did, which you, you’ve been through, uh, a lot of the content in this book is from that. Mm-hmm. So this is kind of like the self-guided version for 20 bucks.

Yeah. Uh, but we work with people, you know, one-on-one. Um, and if you came through that experience, there’s, there’s four. Things we, we gotta get people clear on. Mm-hmm. Um, and it’s, it’s kind of like four one things. So the first is you gotta be clear on what problem you solve mm-hmm. In one word. And that’s like the genesis.

Yeah. And most people can, they can’t even answer that question. What problem can I solve for the world in one word? Yeah. The next thing is, who do I solve that problem for? Mm-hmm. In one phrase.

Mm-hmm.

Rory: Then how do I solve that problem in one sentence, which is what we call your message. Yep. And then. What [00:17:00] one single revenue stream matters above all others.

Mm-hmm. And if you get clear on those four one things, we call that your uniqueness. Mm-hmm. And, and it’s really important to narrow it because of a, a concept that we call Sheehan’s wall. Yeah. Right. So I, I named THS after a colleague of ours, Peter Sheehan, who’s really, really brilliant, mostly in the corporate world.

I, I originally heard the concept from him and then we adapted it to personal brands because, um, it was so good. And, and then we named it after Peter, but. You know, in any, in any vertical, in any industry, there’s two groups of people. There are those who are unknown. Mm-hmm. Right? So they’re, they’re living in obscurity.

Yep. And then there are those who are, are well known. Yep. Uh, they have notoriety. Mm-hmm. They’re recognizable. Right. That’s where the well-known of this comes from, is where helping people move from unknown to well-known. Mm-hmm. Well, what most of us do that are unknown is we look at the people who are well known and we go, oh, I’m gonna do what they do.

And so we look at Gary Vaynerchuk and he talks about lots of topics, right? And he talks about [00:18:00] entrepreneurship and sports and music and entertainment and wine and Web3 and social media and cryptocurrency and ai and AI and all this stuff, right? And we’re like, oh, I’m multi-passionate. I, I, I wanna talk about a lot of topics.

Multi-passionate. A multi-passionate. I was

Stephen: multi-passionate. Yeah. Yes. Uhhuh. Okay.

Rory: Yeah. And, and that’s what we’re like, oh, I. I’m multi-passionate. Mm-hmm. So I’ll talk about a lot of topics and then, and then, you know, Gary and everyone else is saying, well, you gotta be on, you gotta be multi-platform. You need to be on, you need a podcast, you need YouTube, you need Twitter X, and you need Facebook Meta, and Instagram and Snapchat and Pinterest and YouTube, like all the places.

Um, and you’re like, okay, all right. So I’d be on all the places. And then it’s a challenge because you’re like, who do I talk to? It’s like, well, there’s so many people following me that are from different areas, like. My grandma follows me and my kids. Yeah. My kids’ best friend’s parents and my people from church and like my employees and my customers.

But then I’m also like, have this hobby like on the side. And uh, and then we’re trying to monetize in too many different ways. ’cause we see the rock, I. Right. Mm-hmm. And we go, well, the Rock owns a sports team [00:19:00] and he owns an energy dream tequila, and he owns tequila. And he owns, he owns men’s facial products and clothing line.

And, and, and he’s a comedian and he’s an actor. Mm-hmm. And, and I’ve heard multiple streams of income is how you get rich. So I, I want multiple streams of income. And so what happens is we’re talking to too many audiences mm-hmm. On too many platforms. Mm-hmm. About too many topics, trying to monetize in too many different ways.

Mm-hmm. And what happens is you bounce off the wall. That’s the noise of the confusion. That’s the noise. The reason you bounce off the wall is because if you have diluted focus, you get diluted results. Mm-hmm. Period. Yeah. Right. And, and that came from my, that’s a quote from my first book, take the Stairs, which came out years ago.

Yeah, right. It’s still an amazing book. It’s been true. Still true. Right? Yeah. Is is, um. The, and if you think of the metaphor of the wall, right? Like, okay, if, if I’m hitting a wall, if I’m swinging a sled sledgehammer and I’m hitting all these different spots on the wall, nothing happens to that wall.

Mm-hmm.

But

Rory: if I pick a spot on the wall mm-hmm. And I hit the [00:20:00] same spot over and over mm-hmm. And over again, and again and again. Yeah. Eventually that paint is gonna chip and then it’s gonna crack. Yeah. And then there’s gonna be a divot. And then I’m gonna, I’m gonna punch through. There’s gonna be a little tiny hole.

Yeah. And then I’m gonna punch through and when I punch through and pull back, the entire wall comes crashing down. Mm-hmm. And that’s how you become. Wealthy and well known. Yeah. Because nobody who got rich got rich from multiple streams of income. It’s the stupidest piece of advice on the internet.

That’s

Stephen: very true. I didn’t, yeah, I didn’t, everybody,

Rory: you’re a great example. Yeah. Everybody who got Rich got rich from one amazing stream of income. They had one thing they did really well, right? Mm-hmm. Like, uh, you know, messy is a soccer player. Wolfgang Puck is a chef. Mm-hmm. The Rock in the beginning was just a wrestler.

Mm-hmm. In, in, in the beg, like Sarah Blakely had Spanx mm-hmm. Richard Branson had like Virgin records. You had, you know, Elon Musk does a lot today in the beginning. PayPal. PayPal, yeah. Like there was one [00:21:00] thing, Jeff Bezos, Amazon, like there, there’s not an example, like there’s, there’s like zero examples mm-hmm.

Of people who got rich from multiple streams of income. And there’s like zero examples of people who got famous for multiple things. The way you get wealthy mm-hmm. And well known is you have one amazing stream of income and you become well known on one single topic. Mm-hmm. Right. If you go, Brene Brown became one of the most influential people in the world.

Mm-hmm. All she did for decades was study a one word problem. Shame. Mm-hmm. And you can’t talk about shame without someone bringing up Brene Brown’s name. Yeah, she owns the topic. Dave Ramsey. Owns the topic of debt. Mm-hmm. He has built a multi nine figure business in annual revenue, a thousand employees.

Mm-hmm. Bill, 1 billion podcast downloads like 17 million people listening to him on the radio, and yet he’s been saying the same thing every day for three hours. The [00:22:00] same seven baby stuff for 30 years. Yeah, that’s true. Over and over. Yeah. And over. Right. You, you break through the wall by being the world’s leading authority on one thing.

Yeah. And so the discipline. Is in, is in finding your uniqueness. As Larry Wingett told me early in my career, the goal is to find your uniqueness. Mm-hmm. And exploit it in the service of others. Yeah. So what we did was we created a process that curates. A multi-passionate person mm-hmm. Through a series of exercises and introspective questions and reflection to where the answer emerges.

Right. Yeah. Like, I can’t just like look at someone and go, oh, your uniqueness is blank. Yeah. But you go through this process and the process, it’s revealed. Mm-hmm. Right. And so, you know, that’s the process. We, we, we. Teach in the book for, you know, a few bucks, uh, and then, you know, for more money, we can guide somebody through it if they’re really struggling.

Stephen: Yeah. You know, I’m so glad you, you, you really unpacked that because I, again, I think there’s a tremendous amount of confusion because of all the things that you say, right? [00:23:00] Uh, if I’m, if I’m new to the in, I, and I was at one time, I was very new to the industry. And I wanted to serve people. Mm-hmm. And I think a part of me had to die to self a little bit of, you know, a little bit of, alright, what do you, why do you really want to do this?

Do you really wanna do this for the service of others or do you, are you just saying that and not really meaning it? That’s, that’s good. Steven. Which, which is authenticity. That’s honest, bro. And I find that I’m not the only one that’s faced that

Rory: all of us face that, you

Stephen: know, and

Rory: every day.

Stephen: Yeah. Well, and I think that’s the, I think that’s part of the important part of the conversation, like, yes.

Brand builders group is, is the very best. At what you guys do hands down? I don’t know anybody like you guys, um, from personal branding to books to book launches, there’s nobody better that I’m aware of. I haven’t, I haven’t been introduced to ’em yet, and I’ve been in a lot of rooms, uh, thanks to doing what you guys have taught me to do.

Rory: Well, and we, we created the thing that we wished we had. Mm-hmm. Right. We’re serving the person we once were before I was. The youngest Hall of Fame speaker in US History. Mm-hmm. Before I was a 29-year-old Best New York Times besting [00:24:00] author, before I had a TED Talk go viral. Before we had millions of downloads, I was a broke.

Person aspiring to be like, I wanna speak on stages, I wanna write a book. Mm-hmm. I want, I wanna help people. And there was no path. Yeah. So we don’t know of one that exists either. That’s why we created it anyway. Works. We’re serving the person. We’re serving the person that we once were.

Stephen: Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, I wanna, I wanna touch on, I wanna go back to this for just a second ’cause I’d love to hear your thoughts.

’cause this was a hard lesson for me to learn. Right. Um, you know, I went through an embezzlement. Situation with the company I sold number of years ago. Um, and I had this lady come up to me one time, uh, I, that happened the night before, a three day event that I was gonna be teaching for three days straight Transform.

You live the first one? Mm-hmm. 2017. And in walks this, uh, I call ’em a little pro, uh, prophetic woman, right? She’s African American lady. I loved her. Her name was Dee. And she looks in, I’m about to start crying. Um, and ’cause I, I, she doesn’t, I’m about to step on stage for three days and teach for three days.

And this was happening the night before. Right? Nice. Uh, or so, as far as what was made aware of that, and I remember this concept of her coming [00:25:00] to me in this meeting, or not this, in this, in this event. ’cause she was one of the attendees and walking up and I was starting to cry and she’s like, oh no honey.

Oh no honey, you can’t go to where you’re going next without going through this door. Now up until that point, I admired everybody that I followed. Right. Uh, you and Ramsey and, and so many others. Uh, Maxwell was like somebody I really admired a lot of and in that, and it was like, uh, ET was, uh, obviously we, we both worked with ET a little bit.

Mm-hmm. And, you know, we, these people I just admired, right. I just admired how they carried themselves and how they showed up and served and tried to model my speaking and all this stuff after anyway, long story short was probably 90 days I did the three day event. I was told it was some of the most, the best content I had done, but I was completely.

Catastrophically humbled. Mm. Like I had nothing to draw on, but exactly what I was teaching on, period. It was stuff that obviously I used to get that far. 90 days goes by, I walk at night, I happen to get, go and sit in her office, and I’m sitting in the chair and I’m crying and she’s just smiling and she’s like, [00:26:00] what’s on your mind?

I’m like, if this is what it takes, I don’t want it.

Mm.

Stephen: God can have it. I don’t need to step on a stage. I don’t need to write a book. I don’t. I don’t want it. I don’t want it. You know what she said? She goes, oh honey. Now you’re ready? Mm-hmm. So I wanna talk a little bit about, because you and I have both experienced this, you know, as you know, our mutual friend, Randy Garn, um, I started trying to help some of his, uh, thought leader friends, monetize their businesses and funnels and things like that, just with the, with stuff I’ve learned over the last several years.

And, you know, we’ve, we’ve both ran into, uh, what I call it, it’s like a personal brand growth curve. Honestly, it’s almost like you move from ego into your authenticity. And I’m curious to know, and this is, I know this is not something we ever talked about before, just just ’cause you’re so brilliant at what you do, what do you think are, is some way to almost do like a reality check or gut punch to see where you are in your journey?

’cause it’s, it wasn’t until that moment that stuff started like really flowing for me is when I actually finally said [00:27:00] yes. I, I actually do want to serve people. I actually do want to help people. I actually do have a voice. I do have a truth. I do have something in my spirit. Mm-hmm. Like what, how do, how, ’cause I feel like that’s, you know, that’s, that’s part of breaking through the wall in many respects as being authentic.

Rory: Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, I, I think of that less as like a journey that you’re on. Mm-hmm. And I think of that more as like. A daily decision that you have to make. Ooh, yeah. So, so here’s a good example, right? So, you know this, I’m a hardcore Bible thump in Jesus freak I put it out there, right? So whe whether you’re, whether you’re a, a, you know, a Christian or not, it doesn’t matter.

But like, stick with me on this. So, uh, Colossians 3 23. In the Bible it says, do your work unto the Lord and not unto earthly masters. Mm-hmm. Right? And so I hear that and I’m like, yeah, that’s good. I should do my work unto the Lord and not unto earthly masters, and definitely not unto myself for my own like success.

[00:28:00] And then it hits me. I go, okay, well how, how do I really know if the work that I’m doing is for the Lord? Mm-hmm. Or if it’s for my own selfish interest. Mm-hmm. Or if it’s to try to win the approval of other people.

Mm-hmm.

Rory: Because here’s the, here’s the irony. Yeah. Either way I should do great work.

Mm-hmm.

Rory: Right. If I’m trying to garner fame and accolades for myself, I have to be really good at what I do. If I’m trying to earn the, the genuine approval of others, of my colleagues, like I have to do something really good. And most of all, if I’m dedicating my life in service of the Lord. And, and for those us, those of us that believe that we were created by him and in his image mm-hmm.

With, with the abilities that he’s given us, that should be excellent work. Yeah. So how do I know if I’m creating excellent work, who’s it for? And, and the only thing I’ve resolved to on this, Steven Yeah. We’ve never talked about this, but is I have to make that my prayer [00:29:00] every day. I, because in any scenario, I’m gonna wake up and hopefully do excellent work today.

Mm-hmm.

Rory: The question is, what’s the intention of why I’m doing it? Mm-hmm. And, and who am I doing it for? Mm-hmm. And so all I can do every day is say, Lord, please use me. Please make my life about you and not me. Please put my life in the service of others. Mm-hmm. And what’s amazing about that is. You know, you get this divine sense of purpose.

And fulfillment and, and it, and it’s amazing. So again, you know, like I think of, you know, somebody, this is, I don’t know, I think it’s in Matthew, I think it’s probably in a few of the gospels, but somebody comes up to Jesus and, you know, says, you know, there’s like 617 laws in the Old Testament or something.

Something like that. Mm-hmm. Six 17, I think. And anyways, I, uh, this guy says, well, Jesus, which, like, which one’s the most important? And Jesus goes, oh, well, love the God. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and your mind and your [00:30:00] soul, and, and love your neighbor as thyself. Mm-hmm. Basically love God and love others.

Mm-hmm. And that’s such a simple, but beautiful, profound strategy that I go if I’m doing my work unto the Lord. Mm-hmm. And even if you don’t believe in God, if I’m doing my work unto make the world a better place. Mm-hmm. I have purpose, I have passion. Uh, my mind begins to transcend limitations of what I think I’m capable of.

And I get out of this negative self-talk of I’m not sure I’m good enough, or I’m not sure I’m smart enough, or I, I I don’t have the connections, or I don’t have enough money, or all the, all the, the self-limiting beliefs that show up in a self-centered conversation and my mind becomes consumed with. How can I help that person?

What would make them succeed faster? Where are they stuck?

What,

Rory: what do I have to offer that could be useful for them? Mm-hmm. And that’s the whole strategy. Yeah. Like both in a spiritual sense, [00:31:00] but also in a practical one. Mm-hmm. Like part of the way that I’ve developed relationships with so many of these client people who then became clients, right.

The Lewis House, the Amy Porterfield, the Ed Millets, et the hip hop preacher. Yeah. Is my goal isn’t to sell to them. My goal is to be so useful to them that they can’t ignore me. Yeah. Right. To be so helpful. Yeah. That they have to pay attention. Mm-hmm. And. Great economic and, and worldly things come out of that as a byproduct.

But, but much more important is meaningful relationships and a deep sense of purpose. Mm-hmm. Uh, uh, for myself and, and hopefully Brand Builders Group becomes a big amplification of that, bro. It’s

Stephen: already there. And just scaling.

Rory: I hope so.

Stephen: Not a hope. So it’s a, it’s a facto.

Rory: Well, and we gotta, that’s gotta be a part of our culture, of our mm-hmm.

Of every person on our team and, and every one of our clients. And so we curate our clients like pretty stringently. Yeah. There’s, there’s a lot of people [00:32:00] that we don’t allow to become clients. Um, but, you know, coming back to your question, you know, I, I don’t know a way to put the ego to rest permanently.

Yeah. All I know is that every day I can wake up and I can say, God, everything you’ve given me, I give back to you. My life is yours. Yeah. God, take this company and make it whatever you want. Yeah. Uh, take this, you know, take this book God, and like whatever, whatever you want to have happen, let it be Yeah. I trust you.

And whatever the results are, I surrender to whatever that is. Yeah. That’s the only thing I, I don’t know how to put my ego to bed. Mm-hmm. All I know is the discipline of waking up every day and, and doing that.

Stephen: Well, it sounds like you put the ego to bed. By the same way I had to do it, which is surrender.

Surrender. Yeah. Just, yeah. Surrender to the, yeah. Dude, that was so good.

Rory: Well, and so, and sometimes it’s like, I think it’s like, you know, it’s like, well, why do bad things happen? You know, who knows? But, but what I [00:33:00] do know is that a lot of times in my own life, I’ve had to be beaten down to the point where I give up.

Yeah. It’s what Dee told you, right? I, I’ve, I, I have had to get to the point where I, I quit because I’m like. I can’t take this anymore. Mm-hmm. I can’t carry this stress. I cannot go to bed every night thinking that we have 50 employees and all their families now that we now own a building and we have mm-hmm.

We have dozens of book launches that are like life changing moments that are literally in our hands that, you know, our me driven messengers are, are reaching millions of people every day. Mm-hmm. And like. The obliga, the weight of going, we better not screw up. Yeah. And I’m like, I can’t carry that. Yeah. So I’m like,

Stephen: this is not my problem.

This is your problem, bro. I’m so happy you acknowledged that. ’cause I mean, you, you guys are, you guys are playing a massive role in changing lives as a bi You and I obviously did a, a helped ed with this book launch a number of years ago and, you know, I think I shared with you on another podcast like, dude, it was just an honor to [00:34:00] know that we got to touch lives through.

Through helping what Ed was doing. Yeah. Yeah. And that was such a surreal moment. And it sounds like you get to relive that almost every day.

Rory: Well, yeah. I mean if you just took, you know, we have like 900 active members in our, our flagship coaching program. So if you added up all the impressions those people get mm-hmm.

And that’s what we started Brand Builders Group. Right. Brand Builders Group was never started to be a profit maximization endeavor. Yeah. It was started to be an impact maximization endeavor. It was to go. What could we do that actually would shape the world? And it’s like if we took everything we knew and applied it to just my personal brand or AJ’s.

Mm-hmm. Aj, my wife and my business partner, our CEO, for those of you that don’t know, which is by the

Stephen: rock, by the way. She’s a rockstar. CEO. She is, she is bad. Right. And this is her first book.

Rory: You know, we co-authored it together and yeah. What’s cool is Take the stairs is really like my life story. Mm-hmm.

Coming out. Uh, for this, this is more of like the tactics, but. This is her first book, so her life story is really in the book. That’s so good, dude. First time. That’s [00:35:00] so good. Um, but I think it, it, we, we were going Oh yeah. Like we could make a much bigger dent in the world mm-hmm. If we took what we know and multiplied it through mission driven messengers like you.

Yeah. And, uh, that’s really amazing. And, and, and, and now we’re trying to go, all right, well. Uh, how, how, how do we make sure that this thing would continue even if we weren’t here?

Stephen: Mm-hmm. Yeah. The legacy play. Yeah. Like just, yeah. Legacy. Build it, build it for legacy

Rory: to, to, to go be, because it’s truly, it’s truly god’s.

And, and you know, our first business was, and we started in 2006. Mm-hmm. We grew that to eight figures. We had 200 team members. Um, it took us 12 years to do that. We lost everything overnight, very unexpectedly. Um, brand builders group got back to eight figures in five years. We had no team, no investors, no money.

Mm-hmm. No followers. We started completely from scratch and we got back in half the time. And you go, how? Yeah. We gave it to God from the first day. You

Stephen: gave it to God and you [00:36:00] also stepped out. Just, and at the, if I’m not mistaken, it started with you just simply helping a friend.

Rory: Yeah. It was helping Louis.

Yeah. Mm-hmm. Lewis, it was just, it, we were trying to just be useful to Louis. We didn’t even need anything from him at the time when, when Lewis mm-hmm. House and I became buddies, uh, I just thought he was cool. Yeah. And, and, uh, you know, I could tell, I was like, man, this guy’s gonna. He, he’s gonna be something he big in the world.

And that was long before he was everything he is now, which is massive. Uh, and, um, you know, I, I just, I think, I think there’s not enough conversation about the power of service in personal brands. People are like, their scoreboard is, how much money did I make? How many followers do I have? Mm-hmm. What stages did I get on?

What podcasts did I get invited to? What media outlets have I been featured on? What letters do I have after my name? Mm-hmm. You know, and, and I don’t think there’s anything wrong with those things. How much money is in my banking. I, I

Stephen: think they’re great as long as they happen [00:37:00] organically as a byproduct of service,

Rory: right?

Yeah. That, that’s the gonna be the healthiest, the healthiest and most sustainable thing is to go, how can I fall in love with the idea of taking everything that I have and everything I am. And helping other people with it. Mm-hmm. And that is not only the like emotional strategy, it’s the practical one.

Mm-hmm. You’re most powerfully positioned to serve the person you once were. Mm-hmm. So, you know, one of the things that we talk about in the book is, um, start with who. Mm-hmm. Okay. So, you know, I’m a huge Simon Sinek fan. I think Simon is brilliant and he’s one of my favorite writers. I think he’s one of the, the, the, the most brilliant thinkers of our time.

And, you know, he popularized the phrase, start with Why Largely, I think his, that book and his writing is targeted towards organizations. Mm-hmm. Well, with individual personal brands, actually don’t think that advice is right. I think for what, what we’ve seen to be successful is you start with who. The moment I’m [00:38:00] clear, the, the moment a personal brand becomes clear on who they’re serving.

Every single other downstream decision becomes clear. Mm-hmm. Right. Like if I know exactly who I’m trying to serve, I know where they hang out. So I know where to advertise. I know what words I should use on my advertisements. Yeah. And on my pages. Yeah. I know exactly what products to create because I know what needs they have that need to be solved.

Mm-hmm. I know how much money they make, so I know how to price my offerings. I know exactly what they’re gonna need to implement. Those solutions once they buy them. And so I know what team to build. I know what technology we need to have to support that. Yeah, like everything is clear. Contrast that with somebody who goes.

I wanna help the whole world. Well, that was me at the beginning, so that’s right. So now you gotta advertise to the whole world. Yeah. Which is expensive, by the way. You, it’s expensive. You have to use language that appeals to everyone. You have to talk about problems that every person has. You have to create [00:39:00] products that a, that every single person could buy.

What is that? By definition that is commoditization. Mm-hmm.

That

Rory: is a race to the most general, generic, most universal, ubiquitous thing that applies to everybody.

Mm-hmm.

Rory: And that’s what most people do. And they bounce off the wall and they’re caught up in a, in the very sea of noise they’re trying to escape.

And the only way you break through that wall is if you have huge budgets or you already have massive fame, you already have to be super rich. Yeah. Or super or, or super famous. Yeah. The way. For the rest of us, the way to break through is find that uniqueness, serve off one specific who, and serve them in a deep way.

And you go, you don’t need millions of followers. And you wanted to talk about monetization strategy. So this is where like suddenly the spiritual connects with like, making money. Yeah. Is you go, you know, people think, oh, I, I need, I need millions of followers so I can make a lot of money. You don’t need millions [00:40:00] of followers to make millions of dollars for the average small business.

Literally, like think about this for a second. Most of you watching could triple your best year in income ever with probably less than two dozen of your perfect clients. Wow. Like if you had 24 people. By your top end service. Mm-hmm. You would probably triple your best year ever. You would? Yeah. I would be willing to bet You would definitely be your best year ever.

That’s 24 people.

Mm-hmm.

Rory: There’s billions of people on the planet. You don’t need millions of followers to make millions of dollars. Yeah. Everyone is so focused on the width of their reach that they’re, they’re forgetting and overlooking the depth of their impact. Mm-hmm. The, the key to making money is to serve a few people.

In a really deep and profound way. Yeah. That’s, that’s the key to getting rich.

Stephen: You know what’s really interesting about that is I’m aware, uh, I can’t remember if it was a year or two ago, or [00:41:00] three years ago, but it was a, it was a time and place where there were a couple launches happening at the same time.

And the person, it’s, it reminds me, you know, what reminds me of it, reminds me of Jesus, uh, telling, uh, a parable of how the Pharisee went to go drop in their 10%. At the, at the temple. And yet a woman walks up the stairs and she’s an elderly woman and she’s literally giving everything that she has as an offering to God.

Mm-hmm. And Jesus is very clear. He is like, which one gave more? Right. And even though the 10% wasn’t remotely close to what the widow had in her possession, God smiled on that, on that give. Right. And what, what comes to mind is that, is it, I don’t think it was that long ago. There were a couple major launches happening at one time.

Uh, one was a bit of a celebrity, one was not. And yet the one that was not because they showed up to serve in many cases, outperformed the celebrity endorsement.

Rory: You’re talking about one of our clients.

Stephen: I’m just talking about, I’m talking about in general. Yeah. Yeah, that’s true. We, we, we

Rory: had, we had a, we had a client with that was very, very famous.

I mean like millions and [00:42:00] millions of followers. This show on Netflix, like the whole thing. Mm-hmm. Um, and. Then we had a client who had 800 Instagram followers. Yeah. And I knew, I

Stephen: heard from somewhere. Yeah.

Rory: Yeah. This is a true story. Yeah. And, and we taught them both what we do. I mean, book launches is one thing we do, right?

Like we do. Yeah. It’s one of many things. One of many things, I mean for, for this is your, the personal brand world. Yeah. We only do things for personal brands, but like book launches is one of the things. And so we taught ’em both the same system and the, the, the, the rookie went out and did everything that we said.

The celebrity was like, ah, it’s a lot of work. I’m just gonna post on social media. And this rookie outsold the celebrity author who got a huge advance, by the way, from a publisher Wow. On launch week and a year later had still outsold more Wow. Of this book. And it’s, it’s realizing that you can go deep.

Um, and, and that, that, um, so there’s a, there’s a, there’s a technique we talk about in the book that we, a pattern we started to [00:43:00] notice, we call it fractal math. Mm-hmm. And. This is how you get rich quick. So if you wanna know, well, as I

Stephen: was gonna actually ask you in a couple of minutes we have left about how fractal math, how, how, how to actually use fractal math to monetize.

Rory: Yeah. Okay. So let’s talk about it, right? So here, here, here, here we go From like Jesus to like getting filthy rich. Hey, it’s all connected, bro. Um, so here’s the concept of fractal math. This is the principle. It says 10% of your audience. Will an invest at a level 10 times what they’ve already invested with you.

Mm. If you give them more application and more, uh, intimacy. Mm-hmm. All right. So let’s say you have a product that’s $30. Mm-hmm. And you get a thousand people to buy it. Okay. For you math majors, that’s 30,000 in revenue, right? Mm-hmm. $30 a thousand people to buy it.

Stephen: Multiply X in the middle.

Rory: So, so now if you go, I made 30,000 in revenue.

What’s the fastest, cheapest, easiest way to double my revenue? What [00:44:00] most of us do naturally is we think about width and we go, great. Go get another thousand customers to buy your $30 product.

Mm-hmm.

Rory: And that’s not wrong to do that. That is true. That would double your revenue, but that is the most expensive, slowest, hardest way to double your revenue.

Mm-hmm. The, the easiest, fastest way to double your revenue is to use fractal math. So what is fractal math again? 10% of your customers will invest at a level 10 times more if you increase their application and intimacy. So. So if you had a thousand people buy at 30, fractal math says that a hundred of those thousand, which is 10%, would invest 10 times more, meaning $300.

Mm-hmm. So a hundred of those people would buy a $300 offering if you just served them in a deeper way. Now look at what has happened. You’ve doubled your revenue because 300 times a hundred is also 3000. Mm-hmm. 30,000. Um, same as 30 times a thousand. You’ve doubled your revenue. But here’s the key. [00:45:00] No customer acquisition cost.

Mm-hmm. Right. The most expensive customer is a new customer. Ain’t that the truth? We had no customer acquisition, acquisition cost. Um, and it continues to go forward. So if a hundred people gave you $300, then 10 of those hundred, 10% of the a hundred is 10 people would give you $3,000. Mm-hmm. That’s another $30,000.

Mm-hmm. And that means one of those 10 people. That gave you 3000 more than that would give you $30,000. Yeah. So there you have 30, 30, 30, 30, $120,000. You quadrupled your revenue. Didn’t add a single new customer or spend any more money on ads. And instead of trying to reach millions of people by trying to go wide.

Yeah. You instead were in deliberate and intelligent. You spent no money. Yeah. No other money. And you went deep.

Yeah.

Rory: And it was faster, it was easier, and it was [00:46:00] way more profitable. Yeah. And nobody does this, uh, until you work with us and then we teach you like, we’re like, I was gonna say, I said, I’m trying to do it.

Yeah.

Stephen: Yeah. And you know, it’s God, dude, you’re, you’re, oh man. I’m so ha God, I’m so happy God created you, bro.

Well,

Stephen: I mean, I mean, and I don’t mean that obviously there’s, there’s, there’s business insights that I grasp, but you’re just an amazing human. I’ve had. I get thank I get the pleasure, honor him hanging out with you from time to time.

And um, you know, I guess in closing this thing out, I want to encourage everybody to go make sure you get your own copy of Wealthy and Well Known. Yeah, Roy’s already gonna give you a free copy. So

Rory: free brand audiobook.com/build. Build B-U-I-L-D, free brand audiobook.com/build. Yeah, I’m telling

Stephen: you right now.

What you got is a small, very small piece of what’s in this book and, um, I can’t thank you enough, bro. You, you’ve, you’ve, you have been one of the, the few, uh, that when I started this journey, you and like Evan Carmichael and Randy and some [00:47:00] others that really stepped in and said, bro, I think you got something here.

I think you should keep going. I don’t think you should give up. I think you should really go out there and, and get a message that resonates out to an audience. And I want to thank you for that. ’cause it means the world to me. ’cause I almost gave up probably five or six times on this journey.

Rory: Well, you’re, you’re, you’re welcome.

It’s, it’s a, it’s an honor to do that. And it’s a privilege. And, and here’s what I would say to you, and, and I would say to you, if you feel a calling on your heart, right? Like if you listen to this whole conversation and you’re like, man, I. I have this nudge, like I have this, this calling that I feel like I should share my story.

I feel like I have something to teach. I feel like I have something to offer. I, I feel like I could help the person that I once was. We believe that the, that calling that you are experiencing is actually the result of a signal that is being sent out from somebody else right now who needs you. Mm-hmm.

And, and that’s actually a signal that you could, you could measure scientifically. Mm-hmm. [00:48:00] That, that somebody out there, that person needs you much more than you need them.

Mm-hmm.

Rory: Right? Like, that’s the person that matters. That’s where our worthiness comes from. That’s where the, the, the purpose comes from.

Because they’re out there, like you’re going, oh man, I, I feel like I could do something cool and I could inspire people. They are. Quite literally on their hands and knees crying. Crying. Mm-hmm. Begging and pleading and praying out to God or the universe, or just desperately seeking and searching answers that, you know, like the back of your hand.

Why? Because you’ve already been embezzled from, you already built a nine figure company, you already were homeless, you’ve already been through stuff in your personal life, like you’ve already gone through the things that they’re in the middle of. And your very existence, the fact that you have survived all of that and they meet somebody to go, wow, there is, there is hope.

Like you’re, you are, you’re a living testimony, [00:49:00] uh, before you even teach them anything of like, there’s hope for me. And that’s why every single person matters. Every single story matters, every heartbreak you’ve been through, and, and you just have to ask yourself, what challenge have I conquered? What setback have I survived?

What tragedy have I triumphed over? Because all of those things were a part of preparing you and shaping you and molding you into the person you needed to become to reach back one day and help somebody else. And I believe that that is God’s divine design of your identity. Mm-hmm. But even if it’s not his design and you don’t believe in him, you believe in humans and you can recognize the power Yeah.

Of another person’s story. So go be that person for someone.

Stephen: Bro, you’re amazing, man. Love you, bro. Love you, man. Okay. Thank you so much. Thank you. Hey guys, that’s gonna do it for this episode of Build. Uh, yes, go get your free downloaded copy right now of the audio book of Wealthy and well known. I promise you you’re gonna love that, but you’re also love getting a couple copies for yourself.

More importantly, I want [00:50:00] you to go right now, stop what you’re doing, literally pause the video, pause the audio, go to your favorite social media app, and I want you to follow Rory and AJ Vaden right now. Right now because they can speak life into your life as they spoke in life into mine. We’ll see you in the next episode.

Much love. Take care of peace.

Ep 600: The Pain That Prepared Our Purpose: The Untold Story Behind “Wealthy and Well-Known”

Rory: [00:00:00] Hey, welcome to a very special edition of the Influential Personal Brand Podcast. I am excited to interview the most beautiful, the most smart. The best guest we’ve ever had. My wife, my business partner, my best friend, and, uh, the co-author, my co-author of our new book, wealthy and Well-Known.

Please welcome CEO of Brand Builders Group. Hey, Jay Den,

AJ: you can tell he’s earning some brownie points working towards, oh, working towards some, some good feelings with the wife.

Rory: I either got in trouble or I’m gonna get in trouble, so, um, uh, so. We’re interviewing AJ about our new book, wealthy and Well Known.

If you haven’t heard, uh, this is my first book in 10 years and it is AJ’s first book ever. Congratulations, babe.

AJ: Thank you.

Rory: Um, so the way we’re gonna do this is I’m gonna interview AJ on her book. Her first book ever. So I’m an interviewer, even though I, I helped write some of it. Um, and we did [00:01:00] this together.

We’re gonna ask her, uh, about the book and some of what’s not in the book, uh, and the story behind the book. And, uh, we just wanted you as our dedicated podcast listeners as some of our most loyal fans and subscribers. We wanted to make sure you got a chance to hear from us first about this book and, and why we wrote it and, uh, why we’re, what, what we’re doing here.

So, um. I wanna start with why, why did, why did you feel like we needed to write this book right now at this moment in history? ’cause we’ve been in business for seven years already. I. Uh, so why all of a sudden now’s the time?

AJ: Well, it definitely wasn’t all of a sudden, let’s be clear. Um, technically this book is a lifetime in the making as many of our life stories and the examples and.

Stories in the book. Literally go all the way back for at least me in this particular book to [00:02:00] age seven, right? Mm-hmm. So it’s a lifetime in the making, but seven years truly in production. So the idea that all of a sudden we decided this was the time, that’s not necessarily true. In fact, just this morning we were having this conversation with some new members of our team about build the audience before you write the book.

Mm-hmm.

AJ: Right? Build the audience before you write the book. And. It’s been seven years of. Rebuilding our audience, building a new audience, and rebuilding our team and putting in the infrastructure. And if you’ve been here long enough listening to this podcast or a part of the Brand Builders Group community, then you know, we say this all the time, that the book is not the hypothesis.

It’s the conclusion.

Mm-hmm. And

AJ: the last seven years have been our hypotheses that we’ve been validating, testing and curating and fine tuning and making sure that everything was tight. And that has what has led us to this [00:03:00] time. I don’t think there’s anything unique about this particular day or season of this book other than we’re ready.

We’re ready. That’s why it’s time.

Mm-hmm. We’re

AJ: ready. I feel like the audience is ready. Um, but we feel very, very clear on what our purpose is here in this world and in this life. And I think it’s taken us a while to get clear on that, but I feel like as we have gotten really clear on that, it has become more clear.

This is the book, this is the time, and, uh, we’re here. Right now.

Rory: I love it. So one thing that I love about this book is that it is. A combination of different things. It’s a tactical textbook, a very like best of the best of what we’ve learned at Brand Builders Group from building and being a part of some of the biggest personal brands in the world behind the scenes.

But my favorite part of this book is the memoir piece of it. There’s stories about our lives. Memoir is

AJ: a strong word, that memoir, [00:04:00] there’s,

Rory: there’s stories, um, that are a part of our, there’s some good stories and particularly your life because. This is your first book. Mm-hmm. And a lot of people, you know, we’ve never codified your stories, stories, stories in a book.

Now you mentioned a moment ago that we’ve had to rebuild, um, for people who are brand new or haven’t heard the story, or haven’t heard the story in a while. What were we rebuilding from? And can you, can you share the opening line? ’cause we alternate chapters. Uh, so we write, we each take turns writing different chapters

AJ: here.

I’m just gonna read it. Why

Rory: don’t you grab it? Why don’t you read the first line so that you can hear the first chapter verbatim right outta your voice. Here’s a little, a little, a little clip of the audio book, uh, directly from AJ Vaden opening line.

AJ: May 4th, 2018. Today is your last day. Your services are no longer needed here.

Rory: What [00:05:00] happened? What, what, what did happen? What, what are you, what what? Uh, what’s the. Tell us the, tell us what you can of the story briefly. What was happening in that moment?

AJ: Yeah, so May 4th, 2018 was, you know, I think all of us, if we look back just a little bit of universal context, have moments, events, uh, experiences in our lives that there was a before and an after.

Mm. Right.

AJ: And that was that for me, it was the ending of an era and the beginning of something new and what that new was, I wasn’t sure in that moment, but it was definitely the ending of something. It was a necessary ending. It was, uh, an ending that I wish had gone a little differently. Um, but on May 4th, 2018, I got fired and there was a, a long season of three or four years.

I had a really hard time saying those words. I had a hard time saying the words. I was fired. I think there was a lot of [00:06:00] shame around that. Like what did I do like. Like, I think there’s just like a negative connotation with getting fired. Um, and I’ve come to realize it’s not always true. Sometimes there’s a negative, uh, reason.

And, and in this case, I think I could share my perspective. They could share their perspective. And at the end of the day, I don’t really care about my perspective or their perspective anymore. I care that God had a better plan for me. And I didn’t have the courage to leave our former business.

Rory: Yeah. What, what were you being fired from, just to clarify our former company?

Yeah. So what, what was, what, what were we doing?

AJ: We had a sales training and sales coaching business that we had spent the better part of the previous 13 years building. Um, and when I say the better part, I mean the better part of our lives. Right. Um, I share this in the book. It’s like for, I saw the decade I very.

Willfully gave up all personal events, birthdays, [00:07:00] anniversaries, weddings, birthday parties in the name of company, first revenue, profit, ego, ambition, success titles, accolades, uh, thinking that, you know, if I give it all up, if I put, if I make the company first, then, then they’ll see how good I am. Then they’ll see how loyal I am.

Then I’ll, they’ll see how committed I am if I give it everything I have. And so I did. I gave it everything I had and then I got super fired and lots of different things went into that. And the truth is though, I knew I was losing myself, uh, I knew years before I got fired, this wasn’t the right place for me.

I knew in my soul that I was doing something that didn’t feel aligned with my purpose. I felt. Uh, very isolated from my personal life and personal friends and family. And, um, I lost a lot of friends in the, in those seasons because of ambition and success [00:08:00] and the pursuit of success, uh, whatever that was, uh, for me at that time.

Um, and I didn’t see it, but I felt it. Right. I felt alone. I felt isolated. I felt like no matter what I tried, it wasn’t enough. I felt really like I had to earn my worth, and I, I didn’t feel good about that, and so I had genuinely wanted to leave a couple of times and didn’t, and. When this day came, and that’s why I said I, God had a better plan for me.

And, uh, this was no longer the seat for me. And because I didn’t have the courage to do it when I knew I should, it happened in a lot more of an aggressive way. Um, but I also, I can honestly say, and I share this in the book, it’s like I needed a. A full tear down. I needed, I needed the, the humbling experience of having it stripped away.

I, I personally needed a heart [00:09:00] transformation for me to become present to how much I had made my work, my idol.

Rory: Yeah. I think, you know, as I reread this, uh, which you as if you’ve ever written a book, you know, you reread your own book dozens of times before it becomes real. One of the things that really has.

Set in with me is that this is a book about identity. Mm-hmm. Not just the tactics of personal branding, but the, the stories and particularly your stories, uh, and how they intersect become our story. And the company story is really about who you are as a person. And, um, for those of you that don’t know, our first business, that was an eight figure business.

We had about 200 people, uh, ish that were on the team with business partners with. We had business partners and investors. Investors. We had, um, uh, thousands of clients. Um, you were consulting and large boardrooms with some of the biggest companies in America. [00:10:00] And all of a sudden, in one moment it was gone.

Um, and everything that we had known. Was gone, our team was gone. The technology we’d built was gone. The curriculum we created was gone. The, the relationships that we had built were gone. Our, our, our platform, our following, our podcast, uh, all of it was gone in an instant and there was a clean slate, um, for us And for you.

And, and I think, what did you learn a, a, about your identity in that moment? Because you’re talking about. You, you kind of knew you had some instincts or some nudges that maybe you shouldn’t leave. You didn’t, for various reasons, obligations, responsibility, but then it was all taken away. What did you learn about yourself in that moment when it was all erased or like wiped clean, as you said?

AJ: Well, I share this in the book. Um, but in the moment [00:11:00] that those words were spoken, there was this immense sense of relief.

Hmm.

AJ: And terror. It was like, oh my gosh, I, I don’t have to make this decision. It’s been made for me. That was the relief. It was, I don’t have to explain or let people down or justify my reasons.

I don’t have to do any of that. This was, this was done for me. That was the relief part, and the terror part was, oh crap, what does that mean next? Like. Does that mean I’m not gonna have a paycheck? Does that, what does that mean, uh, for my team? Do I not get to say bye? What does that mean? What does that mean?

Mm-hmm. Like for our business, for our equity, for our ip. So it was this also, we

Rory: had a a, a brand new baby.

AJ: Had a brand new baby and, uh, first baby. So there was all those kind of, there was this [00:12:00] huge 800 pound gorilla. Removed from my back and then a new one put on. So it was, uh, but I, but that’s the honest truth.

It was a huge relief because I was kind of living in this daily torment of should I go, should I stay? Should I go, should I stay? Um, and the, the staying part kept winning.

Mm-hmm.

AJ: Um, against my better judgment for, for me. And that, that was the relief part. And the terror part is it’s, oh crap, what does that mean for.

Real everyday life.

Mm-hmm.

AJ: So I think that is a huge part of realizing there was this deep knowing that I wasn’t doing what God called me to do. Um, and that was the relief part of like, okay, like this is my chance. And then the terror part is the, the fear of the unknown, just fear in general. Um, but what I learned about myself, not in that moment, that’s what I learned in that moment, is you can have both at the same time.

Rory: Yeah.

AJ: And I [00:13:00] think that’s healthy and was uh,

Rory: there may be someone living that right this second feeling like there’s something wrong with them. And it’s like, no, you can have these two very absolutely strong dichotomy. Juxtaposition, very real.

AJ: And it was the next couple of years that I learned that my entire worth, my entire identity had been basically packaged up underneath this work, this work role that I was living.

And it was a really hard. Transition of everything I had done, everything I had built, everything I had known was just gone and quote unquote, had nothing to show for it. Um, lots of life experiences, lots of good things. Um, but tangibly, I’m like, oh my gosh. It’s like all gone.

Rory: It can all be taken. My social media

AJ: is gone.

The podcast is gone. The books might be gone. My clients are gone. The money is gone, my team is gone, my assistant is gone. My contacts. Are gone. Like [00:14:00] that was a very real thing of going, I, I didn’t know that could happen. I didn’t know it could just like disappear in 24 hours. And so I think that was like more of the terror, uh, part that I’m like, wow, you could spend 13 years.

I spent 13 years giving up everything that I stood for that just disappeared overnight. It was really humbling and very, um, infuriating. And so what I learned is, the reason I was so mad about it is because I looked around and I didn’t really have a lot of friends left.

Mm.

AJ: I looked around and I, you know, I didn’t have the work to do where I had filled my mind with bu

I, I looked around and felt really lost because everything that had been my identity was just gone. And the quote, unquote, nothing to show for it was. Oh, I don’t have all this busy work to do, or calls to lead, or emails to check. And I had found like that I found my, my worth [00:15:00] and all of that stuff. I had found my worth in a whole bunch of insignificant things like emails and calendar invites and calls and, and when it was all gone, I kind of looked around going like, what now?

Like, who, who am I supposed to be? What am I supposed to tell people I do like, and that’s, that’s when it hit me. It’s like, oh, I, I didn’t get it right. I got it wrong. I got it really wrong. Um, and it had to be all gone for me to see it.

Rory: If you look at the high level arc of our journey as business partners together, if, if you don’t know, AJ and I were started as business partners first, uh, in our first company.

And then we started dating like a year into that. But we started from zero making cold calls out of the Yellow Pages, built that company to eight figures. We launched our first New York Times bestselling book. We built this team. You built a multi seven figure [00:16:00] consultancy, speaking bureau, coaching company, and then all of that disappears in one moment.

And then you fast forward to where we are today. A brand Builders group is back to eight figures. We got 50 ish employees. We work with some of the biggest personal brands in the world. Many of the people who endorse the book, uh, ed Millet, Amy Porterfield, John Maxwell, Louis Howes, et cetera. Um, we’ve worked with a lot of these great clients.

But in that interim, tell us the story of how Brand Builders Group got started. So you’re, everything is gone. You realize, oh man, my whole identity was wrapped up in this. Who am I? What do I tell people? I do. What happened next? How did, how did you go from that or to, to brand builders group becoming a thing?

AJ: Mm. Well that’s a great question and uh, I’m actually gonna pull the book out just for a second and go back to the acknowledgement. Section at the very end of the book, um, because I think it’s [00:17:00] worthy of doing a verbal acknowledgement for a very specific person. There’s so many people that made this possible.

Um, but at the, at the very start, the match that kind of started the flame was Lewis Howes and. So I’m just gonna read this ’cause I think in the audio book, Rory reads it. So this is my chance to read it to Lewis. To Lewis Howes. It’s pure fact that we would not be where we are or doing what we are doing without you.

We are eternally grateful for the divine intervention that brought you into our lives. We cannot possibly begin to express our gratitude for your generosity, belief in us, and willingness to help us when things felt so out of reach. Thank you for the bottom of our hearts. That took a lot of restraint, not to cry, um, but uh, you know, in the middle of the chaos that was getting [00:18:00] fired and a lot of unnecessarily.

Hard things that came out after that. Um, we get a call from Louis, um, and Rory, you know, you had been building a relationship with you Lewis for years. I was very much, um, an associate like a, a friend of Louis by proxy. Um, didn’t have a personal relationship with Louis at all. So when he calls us, was really calling you but us by default, um, as this two become one thing.

Right? So, uh, he calls. And it was like, Hey Rory, I don’t know why I’ve gotten this feeling, this prompting. I should call you and, uh, I need help with my business and my personal brand. And any chance you just have some time to like sit and talk to me. And, uh, I remember we were not too far away from each other and it’s like this almost the first time of levity, of laughter in the middle of all this, of like, yeah.

We got lots [00:19:00] of time, lots of calendars, calendars and calendars wide open calendar has been cleared. Yeah. Um, which I do also believe is the divinely orchestrated.

Amen.

AJ: Uh, the timing is just impossible to ignore. In the contacting of us by Lewis, the later the podcast that released and the events that followed, like the timing is impossible to ignore, that this was not divinely orchestrated.

Um. For our good. That doesn’t mean good things aren’t hard. I think the best things in life can be very hard. Marriage is hard. Being a parent is hard. Uh, running a business is hard and it’s good. It’s so good. So when he called, we did have this wide open calendar, which if he had called two weeks before.

Yeah. Right. Like. Our calendars were chock full every minute of every day. That wouldn’t have been a, it [00:20:00] wouldn’t have been a possibility. It would’ve been an oversight or it just, it just wouldn’t have happened. Um, so I think that in, in and of itself is just, was the first sign that like, God’s up to something.

Mm-hmm. Like this, this is gonna be okay. And that was just within two days of me getting fired. Um, and then Louis came to Nashville. Flew to Nashville, spent two days with us in our basement. Now the, don’t think basement. Basement, it was like a decent basement. Yeah. Like, uh, it wasn’t like it was fish. We were hiding out in a dungeon or anything.

It wasn’t that crazy. Um, but we spent two days with him and just listening and asking questions and thinking and talking. Really, it was just doing the stuff that we do and that we had done for your book, for the podcast, for our coaching business, for all the things that, here’s what I would say, what I realized in that the, the two weeks after is that everything had not been lost.

It had all been for preparation. Um, the conversations around books and speaking and [00:21:00] podcasting and coaching and consulting are all things that we had been doing for 13 years, and that’s why we could speak so easily and off the cuff about it. We didn’t need to have a course or a book or a workbook ready to do this to help him.

This was already in our lane of expertise. It was already in our lane of what we do. ’cause we’ve been doing it

Rory: even though that’s not what we.

AJ: Did as a business. That’s not what

Rory: we did as a business before then.

AJ: But I think it, it was all like coming together of like, no, like this is preparation. Like what we, what we quote unquote lost has not been lost, is just showing up in a new way, in a new form, in a new season.

Um, and I think those were, you know, really important aha moments to have in the middle of a lot of like, oh gosh, are we gonna make it? Oh gosh, are we gonna be able to pay the bills? Oh gosh, what? What’s gonna happen? Also at the same time knowing, oh, okay, [00:22:00] there is something there. We have done this before.

We can do this again. Again, feelings of fear and hope can coexist. Mm-hmm. They can be there at the same time. Um, and so at the end of those two days, it was Lewis who said, this is why. This happened. This is why you’re fired, right? This is why this is going on. Like this is your new business. This is what you guys can, you can do.

You, y’all should do this. Like this is your new business. Um, and, but this is, but this is a part that’s crazy. It’s like I just genuinely believe regardless of what everyone else’s religious beliefs are, and affiliations of faith, for me, I’m a devout believer in Jesus. And God, and in my life and in our family, this was the biggest, loudest, brightest sign on planet Earth of, I have a plan for you.

Rory: Amen.

AJ: [00:23:00] Will you trust me?

Rory: So Louis comes over, I remember he says to us, you guys were born to do this. This is your new business. And I was like. No, we just got done working 80 hours a week, like for 12 years. Like we don’t have a business, we don’t have a team, we don’t have a bank account. Like we don’t have not a business bank account.

A business bank account. And, and I said, we don’t have an audience. We don’t, we don’t have a, a database, a list. And Louis said, that’s okay. I have one and I’m gonna have you on my show. And we’re going to, you’re gonna tell the whole world everything that you taught me, and we’re gonna tell everyone this is what you are gonna do.

And so, uh, he invited me out to speak at his mastermind. We signed up our first two clients there. Uh, brave

AJ: souls. Very brave souls. We didn’t even have a way to collect the money. [00:24:00]

Rory: Justin

AJ: and Danielle, if you are listening, you have no idea how much confidence that you inspired in us and our team. By signing up and giving us your credit card that in that very first two weeks.

Rory: Yep. And then Lewis has me come on the podcast. We started, uh, walking and figuring out, oh, could we do this and what would it take and how could we pull it off? And then we, and then I go on the podcast, what happens after that podcast?

AJ: Lots of things. Do you have something specific in that? Well, just, just, just

Rory: the how many calls and like, what was the state of our, what was the state of our team in our company?

Oh,

AJ: I, I asked because I was like, and again, I think this is just a, a beautiful picture of how the best things in life and the hardest things at life can all happen simultaneously. I got fired two days later. Louis shows up with this. Grand idea. Um, right. Divinely orchestrated, um, [00:25:00] Lewis’s podcast. Go live, goes live and we get sued all within three days of each other.

And so I think that, and that’s why I asked, well, which thing? There’s lots of things are happening around that time. Um, and so I think that’s just, it’s a really beautiful example of the highest highs and the lowest lows can coexist in life. And that is the adventure of life.

Rory: It’s so interesting ’cause one of the other things that happened was around that time someone broke into our house.

Mm-hmm. And they stole all of your late mother’s jewelry. Um, and just recently, like recently, now. Lewis had someone break into his house, uh, and then, and then someone broke into Matt’s car and they just posted about this on YouTube and I said, I said, man, uh, it’s so terrible. I know you, you feel so like victimized.

But I said, look, for every action, there’s an equal and opposite reaction. I. And I think when these bad things happen, it’s because you’re being prepared for this incredible good. And the, the, the metaphor I think of as an [00:26:00] arrow being pulled back. Mm-hmm. Right? And it’s like the farther you pull the arrow back, the faster it shoots forward.

And so I think. Sometimes when these like really hard things are happening, it’s because it’s like, it’s literally the world is shaping. God is orchestrating to go. There’s an equal and opposite positive reaction coming, like you are an arrow being pulled back that’s about to release.

AJ: Well, yeah, well just even at the, the story of when our house was broken into and all of our, you know, things were stolen.

Um, it was also in a really hard financial season where it was like, are we gonna be able to make the next payroll? Are we gonna be able to pay our bills? And the insurance money was able, it bought us three months of payroll. And it’s not, that’s not just putting a positive spin on it. It’s, it was provision.

And that’s just a choice to see it. It’s a perspective, it’s a lens. It’s like, is that the way I wanted provision to show up? No, uh, not really, but at the same token, I was praying for provision and there it is. It’s like, but do I see the [00:27:00] blessings right in front of my face? Or do I only see the hard parts?

Um, and so, you know, Louis’ podcast go live. We get sued almost at the exact same time, but, you know, this podcast goes live and we’re a personal branding firm, y’all. Um, and we launch our business on Lewis’s podcast, which is very well done. Uh, very high quality, very well produced. And we have an uns stylized landing page that’s white with a picture of me and Rory with an orange button that says, request to call here.

Rory: No

AJ: website. No website, no social podcast, social media, no email list. Barely, uh, barely a business license. And lo and behold, the next miraculous thing happened. A thousand people requested a call from the orange button. I don’t know what possessed those people to click on that button, other than one of the things that we talk about through the book, which is we borrowed the trust of Lewis’s [00:28:00] audience.

And I think trust is the underlying current of so much of what we talk about in the book is trust and reputation.

Mm-hmm.

AJ: And because we had a trusted reputation with Lewis and because he had a trusted reputation with his listeners, our business launched. Our business flourished because there had been VA an exchange of value and trust for years on our behalf of Lewis and on his behalf with his audience.

And I think it’s a really good reminder for all of us listening, it’s we are, we’re living in a world, and this isn’t new, but it’s a good reminder of instant gratification. We want it right now. It doesn’t matter if it’s starting a business, launching your personal brand, writing a book, a podcast, social media, whatever it is you’re trying to achieve, it’s like somehow we forget that that actually takes work and that work is good and good for us.

And it creates, uh, truly, it creates endurance. It creates a competitive spirit. It creates the, the [00:29:00] necessary lessons. To make sure that it lasts and then this in this world where, especially with AI and technology where it can just be done faster and faster and faster, we somehow think that the rest of our lives get to be lived that way too.

And

AJ: that’s just not true. Relationships don’t happen like that, and long-term success doesn’t happen like that. And trust doesn’t happen like that. It doesn’t happen in an instant. It doesn’t happen in a moment. It takes time, it takes work. And that work. Was happening behind the scenes long before that podcast went live, which is why our relationship with Lewis and his relationship with his audience transpired into something that is today brand builders group.

Rory: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I wanna, I want to read another section of acknowledgements, uh, because that all happened and to the point of trust and, and relationships. So one of the things that we talk about in here is. You build relationships before you need them, and that’s one of our BBG [00:30:00] mantras is build relationships before you need them.

Uh, and that takes time. Mm-hmm. One of the other things that is just a true part of the story, so I’ll just read this. First and foremost, we want to express our deepest gratitude to the founding team members of Brand Builders Group. El Petrillo, ILA Lake, Thomas Dotson, Jeremy Weber. Jane Weber, Kristen Hart Nagel, Elizabeth Stevens, Jennifer Kerr, Brittany Parker, Kevin va, and Nicole Gale.

Elise Archer and Kristen Colon. Each of you risked your livelihoods and your financial security to join us on this wild and uncertain adventure. You believed in the vision of what could be before there was any proof that it would work. Your courage, dedication. And unwavering faith in this mission laid the foundation for what Brand Builders Group has become.

We owe you an immeasurable debt of gratitude for taking a leap of faith with us and helping us to turn a dream into reality. And I think that’s the other part of this story that people don’t always know is, um, [00:31:00] after, uh, AJ was fired, uh, and two other senior female executives were fired at the same time, I resigned.

And then it’s like. When the four of us left, there were a lot of people who, who left our former company and some of them came and found us, and Brand Builders Group started because we had a team of people who also believed in this and they had, you know, when you said earlier it was like, it felt like we lost everything, but it was like we had our reputation, we had trust, and um, we had a lot of loyalty.

AJ: We had an amazing team.

Rory: And we’ve had, we have an amazing still do, amazing team still today. Um, they’re paid better today than they were, than they were in those early days, but I think that’s such a good message for everyone and anyone to know is just like, you don’t get rich overnight. You don’t change the world through going viral.

Like you don’t, you don’t [00:32:00] just. Accidentally instantaneously become like this worldwide phenomenon. It’s through years and years of trust and relationships and serving. Um, and we were helping Lewis long before we had anything to gain from him. Um,

AJ: and didn’t do it for gain. And didn’t

Rory: do it for gain. We had no reason to Back then it was, but God was orchestrating this in a way that was super powerful.

Um, I wanna talk about your, another part of your personal story. Um, which is the story before all of this. Mm-hmm. So you mentioned that, um, you know, as we talk about identity, a lot of the work that we do today at Brand Builders Group is, is, uh, we do what Larry Wingett. Says, which is help people find their uniqueness and exploit it in the service of others.

One of the things I’m most proud of with this book is I, I think it gives people a chance to see your uniqueness in a way. Oh

AJ: yes. Tell us what is that, Roy? What is my uniqueness? What’s your head

Rory: in a way that that isn’t often shown in [00:33:00] broadcast? ’cause you don’t care to be on the front of the, you know, the scenes and on the stage and in front of the camera.

Always. Um. But I’m so proud of that. People get a chance to see that. And, uh, there, there’s a section in this book, chapter three, which I have read at least a dozen times, and I cry every single time. And it’s, it’s your story and part of it is ’cause I’m so connected to your story, but it’s, it’s, it’s because of this woman in your life.

And something she said to you that is so important and powerful. Can you just tell us the story of what happened when you were seven years old and then,

AJ: I don’t know, we have enough time in this episode for all of that. This is chapter three in the book. Um, I can give you the truncated high point. The truncated version, the high points, um, but all the, all of the details are, you can listen to it in the audio book or what would be so helpful is you picked up a copy of the book.

So feel free to do that as [00:34:00] well. But, uh, by

Rory: the way, before you jump into the story, so we actually are doing someone with this book that we’ve never done before. We’re giving away the entire audio book for free. If you go to free brand audiobook.com/podcast, that’s free brand audiobook.com. Forward slash podcast, um, for a limited amount of time.

We’re not sure when, but at least until when the book comes out, we’re giving away the audio book for free. Maybe after that, um, you can go check there and you can get the entire audio book for free. Uh, and then we’ll also share with you details about how you can order the actual book. So anyways, that was a good pause for that.

So, seven years old? Yeah. What happened?

AJ: Highlight, this is very short version, but I was in a very terrible car accident along with my entire family when I was seven years old. Uh, we were on a short journey from Dalton, Georgia, my hometown, to Chattanooga, Tennessee, which is just 30 minutes. Away. And I was seven.

I have a younger brother at the point, at that time who was five, an older brother who was 10. And my parents, we were [00:35:00] all in. My dad’s good old, good nineties, early nineties, Cadillac, uh, heading to Chattanooga, and we hit abrupt traffic. And were hit going 70 miles an hour, um, by a tractor trailer. Uh, the driver fell asleep at the wheel and didn’t see that traffic had come to a halt and hit us going 70 miles an hour.

It was the, we were the first car hit in a 13 car pile up and, um, it was a devastating accident and there were people who died that day. Um, luckily no one in my family, uh, died that day, but my younger brother and my older brother were in. Critically, um, severe condition. Um, my dad was injured but conscious.

They were

Rory: actually pronounced dead. Dead at the scene, dead

AJ: at the scene. Um, they were saved by the jaws of life. Um, strangers from vehicles in front of us came and tried to, uh, help get my family out. My dad was conscious they couldn’t get my mom out. They couldn’t get my brothers out, but since my dad was able to escape from the driver’s side window, he was able to [00:36:00] pull me out through a, a broken window, set me on the side of the road, and I watched.

As these strangers risk their lives. Didn’t know if the car gonna explode as, you know, something. Who knew what was gonna happen? It was, it was a devastating, um, accident, um, trying to save my family, but they couldn’t get ’em out. And so then the jaws of life showed up. Um, they were able to get my brothers out, but they both were without a pulse.

Um, con considered dead on the scene. Both were, um. AirVac to the nearest hospital. My mom and dad went in an ambulance. I went later in a police car as they were clearing the scene. And long story short, both of my brothers made miraculous recoveries. Um, neither were supposed to make a recovery. My youngest brother gave, was given a 10% chance of living.

He was in a three month coma. He was not predicted to make it. And if he did not live a normal life, uh, he lives a normal life. He’s married, he has a child, he [00:37:00] has a job. Uh, my older brother made a complete 100%, uh, recovery, unexpected without any medical intervention. It was absolutely miraculous, uh, doctors said.

So, it was just so obvious that this was God’s work, um, to the point where our family was contacted by the Children’s Miracle Network telethon because of the miraculous, unexplained medical miracle that had just occurred. Um, to be a part of their telethon series in 1990. My youngest brother was the poster child of the year that year, and we traveled, um, the country with the Miracle, the Children’s Miracle Network, telethon for the next.

Five years helping raise money for the children’s hospital and doing fundraising events and telephone events. I don’t know if they still do those. Um, but that was a very big part of my childhood from age seven to 12. And here’s how it went. Meet Christopher and meet Jason, the [00:38:00] Miracle kids from this accident.

And that’s what I heard my entire childhood meet my brothers, these miracle children. No one said I wasn’t. But no one said I was. So, I spent the majority and they, and they were

Rory: miracles, they a

AJ: hundred percent. Um, but I very much interpreted that as I wasn’t saved, I wasn’t important. Um, I wasn’t special.

Um, I didn’t get a settlement from the accident since I wasn’t injured, so I wasn’t even considered as a part of the accident. Um, everyone else in my family, um, got fairly large settlements. Um. At, but not me. And so I, I, it felt very overlooked, undervalued, um, unseen. Not intentional, but very real. Um, and so I started believing those things about myself, um, that I had to do something to be seen.

I had [00:39:00] to work. To show my worth, hence the how that carried on into the later years of my adult life. And then fast forward to college, I went to University of Tennessee Vols, very proud. Caught the college pride. Let’s stay on pride, let’s proud. Lots of college pride. Um, but it was, uh, at a sorority dinner, um, during parents’ weekend.

Um, my mom passed away as r he mentioned when I was 15. Um, and my dad. Wasn’t able to make it that weekend. And I was one of the only kids, one of the only girls there who didn’t have a family to sit with. And so my little sister in the sorority said, Hey, sit with my family and I. I didn’t have any options, said I will because I don’t have any parents here.

Um, and Katie was just trying to make a small talk, my little sister in the sorority and said, Hey, tell my mom your story. And I knew what story she meant ’cause she knew my story and her mom was a doctor. I don’t recall a doctor of what, [00:40:00] uh, I just remember had the Dr. Um, doctor something. And so I’m telling her this story and you know.

Fully expecting to hear like, wow, that’s amazing. And at the end of the story, I just remember her grabbing my hand and she goes, aj, my goodness, you are a miracle.

Rory: And and you said to her, tell him what you said to her.

AJ: Sorry. You must have misheard me. No.

Rory: You said my, I’m not the miracle. I

AJ: know y’all, Rory is crying like a bloody mess over here. Um, we’ll have to edit this part out of, uh, the podcast. Don’t

Rory: edit it. Tell the story, babe.

AJ: She said, you are the miracle. And I said, no, you misheard me.

My brothers, they’re, they’re the miracles. [00:41:00] And she said, no, I heard you, you just said. That you survived a 13 car pile up with not a scratch on you, no bruises, no internal injuries, you walked away unscathed. You are a miracle child.

And for the first time in my 21 years, I thought to myself, wait, what?

Did I, did I miss something? Wait, could that be true? And I remember getting in the car to leave the dinner, to go back to the sorority dorm and thinking to myself, wait, was I too a miracle was I, was I saved In that moment from a, from a stranger radically changed my life. And I just so [00:42:00] very firmly believe that the power of the tongue has the ability to build up or destroy, and we use it at will to do either of those things, and you can be a complete stranger.

And a side conversation unknowingly changed the course of someone’s existence on this earth, and that’s what happened.

Rory: That story makes me cry for many reasons. Um, uh, but I think the part that connected for me when we wrote the book was, you know, this book is about identity, and that moment was one of the most redefining moments in your life. That, that literally redefined your identity.

Mm-hmm.

Rory: And now what your [00:43:00] identity is, is helping other people get clear on their identity.

And of course, one

AJ: which is very fitting

Rory: and so fitting. And one of the, one of the, one of the flagship phrases in the book is what we print, we printed right here on the cover. It’s a little Easter egg, so you’ll have to, if you don’t know to look for it, you won’t see it. But if you open it up, it says right on the right on the front cover, you are most powerfully positioned.

To serve the person that you once were. And we discovered that. We discovered that. We didn’t know that when we started Brand Builders group. Mm-hmm. But we, we started to notice that pattern as we had worked with hundreds and now a couple thousand clients that, oh, for all of us, you’re most powerfully positioned to serve the person you once were.

Well, we are a company who helps people get clear on their identity. And that moment, that story in your life and the story of you getting fired are two really defining moments, [00:44:00] redefining moments of your identity, which I look back and I go, God is orchestrating your life from the time you were seven years old to go, I’m gonna build this woman into a woman who helps.

Other people find their identity, that helps other people get clear on their identity that he was making you a woman that would be like Katie’s mom. Um, and I hope Katie’s mom hears this story because the way that she spoke life over you is the way that I pray. That brand builders group and our team and our strategists and our content and curriculum and that this book, I pray that it’s, it brings life to other people that when they’re going through the hard times, when they’re going through the hard parts, it gives them the perspective to go, I know this is hard, but it’s because God is doing something powerful in you.

Mm-hmm. And he’s shaping you and he’s, he’s making your identity.

AJ: Well, I think that. [00:45:00] I think one of the big takeaways of why we included the story into the book, and that’s the first time I’ve ever really publicly shared that story. I didn’t have a purpose or, um, a good point to what is the universal nature of this story and what, what good does it do other people?

And it wasn’t until, uh, writing this book that God just really put outta my heart like, this is the story that people need to hear. Because I think that we all struggle so much with this concept of what’s my purpose? I. What, what am I here for? Am I, am I doing the right thing? Like, does even, does e does anyone even care?

Like, what am I doing? Like, what, what is this about? And, and I think that’s a lot of people, and I think another group of people live in the hardships of their past. They live in the, the trauma and almost can’t see the good. That has come because they’re so focused on the bad. And I only share that ’cause I lived [00:46:00] in that too.

I had a really hard time seeing the gift of my saving of my rescue. ’cause all I could focus on through the lens of comparison is what my brothers were getting, which was attention and gifts and accolades and time. Um, and it was through the lens of comparison that I lost myself. When I was a child.

Mm-hmm.

AJ: And I see a lot of people live that through adulthood. I too have lived that in adulthood. Um, but I think that’s one of the reasons why this book is so important. And, and it’s not just a book about personal branding, it’s a book about finding your God given purpose. Because it’s there. It was crafted before you were created in your mother’s womb.

It’s there today. It’s in the midst of all the hardships and the struggles and the trauma and the valleys. It’s there at the mountaintop moments. It’s it’s there and the victories and the successes, but it’s there in the hard stuff. It’s not mutually exclusive. They’re all [00:47:00] together working for the good of your life and the good that you can do in other people’s lives, and I think that is a huge reason.

Why the story became really important for the book and, uh, the signature story of chapter three is until you realize that you do have purpose, you can’t find it.

Mm,

AJ: you have to believe that you were created to do something, to be something that you just haven’t discovered yet, and you only discover it by serving other people.

Yeah. Like you only do it by going back and helping the person you once were. It’s like you find purpose in that because you’re helping someone else. Um, it’s not gonna be found in money in your banking account. Sorry. Hate to disappoint all of us. Uh, that’s not where it’s found, it’s not found in a bunch of material stuff.

It’s not, we all know way too many people who have all the things who’ve done all the things that are [00:48:00] still searching for purpose and fulfillment. ’cause it’s not where it comes from. It comes from knowing that you’re living into the reason you’re here, that you’re, you’re doing the thing that you were created to do for the person that you can help.

Rory: That’s why we went, by the way, I dunno if you can see this on the video, but there’s a single fingerprint on the cover and, and in the hard cover it’s raised is going, every single person makes a unique mark on the world. It’s, it’s. The difficult things that you’ve been through that are actually what equip you and prepare you, the pain that you’ve gone through, is what prepares you for your purpose.

Because it’s, it’s what has shaped you and molded you into being the only person in the world who can help somebody else, who’s going through exactly what you’re going through, what you’ve been through. Um. And I just, I think that’s so powerful. Again, you, [00:49:00] if you go to free brand audiobook.com/podcast, you can download the audiobook, um, completely for free.

Uh, I. I am so honored to do life with you and to do business with you, and to raise a family with you, uh, to now be a co-author with you. Uh, I’ve always thought, you know, the idea of there’s no such thing as a bestselling author. There’s only such a thing as a bestselling team, and we’ve been a team. From the beginning.

And now we’re officially, you know, a team and, uh, our whole team, brand Builders group and our whole community at Brand Builders Group is a part of this. Uh, whatever this book becomes, it’s gonna be in large part to the fact that our community right now is sharing it and they’re, they’re giving the audio book away for free to their people.

And, um, I think that’s what brand builders has become. And for, for AJ and I, you should know that like brand Builders group was never started to be. A profit [00:50:00] maximization endeavor. Um, we started this to be an impact maximization endeavor. We started this because we felt like God was telling us, help my people be heard and help the people who are mission-driven messengers, the people with great stories to.

Okay, share their stories because their stories matter. And you know what you were, when you were just talking about purpose, I couldn’t help but think about this story. I’ve been thinking about this a lot lately. When, when Jesus is asked, I don’t know if it’s a Pharisee or someone asked him, he says, you know, there’s 617 laws, I think 617 in the Old Testament.

And he says, which, which is the most important? And Jesus says, you know, love the God. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and strength and mind and soul. And then love your neighbor as yourself to like serve and. Yeah. Even people don’t believe in Jesus. They’re not Christians. I think there’s something inherent about a mission-driven messenger that goes, I want my life to count.

I want my life to have meaning, and it has meaning in service. Mm-hmm. It’s in the con, in the [00:51:00] context. My life, in and of itself sits as this sort of isolated piece that’s disconnected from everything, but the moment I engage with helping somebody else, I have meaning and I have purpose, and it, it never goes away and it’s never insignificant.

It’s. It, it just, it matters. And so that’s what we’re doing at Brand Builders Group. That’s what we’re hoping to do with this book. Um, what is any final thoughts that you would share, uh, as we wrap this up and this journey about the book? Yes.

AJ: I’m gonna flip the switch for a minute and ask you a question about the book.

How about that? Uh, wealthy and well known. Why that title? Oh, because. Uh, I think it can be misleading, but we had very big intentional reasons around these words in this title. So why this title? Rory Vaden?

Rory: Yeah. Well, it’s not accidental. It, uh, it is a bit of a bait and switch. I mean, well, obviously at Brand Builders Group we help people become more well known and we, monetization strategy is something that we do really [00:52:00] well, but it it, the epilogue of the book, you will find that we transparently disclose, um, this not so secret.

Hidden agenda, which is, I used to think, you know, when I grew up I was, I was raised by a single mom. We didn’t have a lot of money. Um, a defining part of my youth was being curious about how do you get money and why do some people have money and, you know, why are there the haves and we seem to be the have-nots and how is that fair?

And, and so I used to think growing up, I used to think that wealth was an abundance of money. And then later as I got older, I used to think, I, I, I evolved, I guess my thinking to think that wealth was an abundance of time and that, oh man, time is the thing. That’s really the precious commodity time is the thing that matters the most.

And today, I, I, I still see a, a big value for money and time both in the world, but I’ve come to believe that [00:53:00] wealth is simply an abundance of peace. And I really believe that peace is the new profit. And we have been a part of, you know, a small part of some of the biggest personal brands in the world. Uh, a big part of some other personal brands.

But we’ve been around a lot of people. Uh, I mean, I think we have seven billionaires that are clients. We have some of the best selling authors of all time. Some of the most famous speakers, some of the highest paid consultants are now clients of ours. And it’s not the money that gives them the peace.

It’s not the fame that gives ’em the peace. Uh, what I’ve come to believe is that the only true sense of peace is God. Um, and it’s no accident that, that Jesus says, you know, my peace be with you, my peace I give you. And that peace is what we’re really after. Mm-hmm. Um, and you can, it’s ironic because you don’t have to become rich or famous to experience peace.

It’s a gift that’s [00:54:00] available. To all of us immediately at any moment through knowing Jesus and God. But, um, you know, again, even if you’re not a Christian or you’re not sure where you stand on the religious thing, there’s peace and service. There’s. You know, I think so many people are struggling because they’re trying to find happiness.

They’re, they’re, they’re, they’re trying to find happiness and they’re so self-focused on my happiness and they’re missing that. Where purpose really comes from is from being service centered on others. And then the other thing about being well known is, you know, you talk about this in, in the, in the book, you’re already well known by your creator.

Um. Why, why don’t you talk, why don’t you talk about that and land the plane on. Uh, so that’s where wealthy comes from. Where does well known come from? Well, I just

AJ: added one quick thing to the, the wealthy part is like really, it’s like peace is the new wealth, um, is what we talk about in the book. And also I think a lot of peace comes from knowing and believing [00:55:00] that there’s purpose in your pain.

I think there’s peace in knowing that you’re not going through this for no reason, right? And that good will come of it and that you will be stronger and that you will. You’ll find purpose in helping others going through the same thing. And I think that’s also finding peace of going, it’s, nothing is lost.

Everything will be used. Um, how doesn’t, we don’t always get to know and decide that, but I think there’s also a lot of peace in that. Um, the well-known piece is, I think so many of us spend so much of our time trying to get validation from external sources. From how many likes we get on social media or content or engagement or downloads or book purchases or what lists we’re on or how much money is in our account, or what bag do we cover, carry or car, do we drive?

We look for so much external validation, um, because that’s where we think we’re seen or known or loved or respected or appreciated or valued. [00:56:00] And we all know, we just talked about it. It’s like that’s not it. Because we can do all those things and still feel really empty, really lonely, uh, really isolated and very confused of like, I thought, I thought this was the thing that was gonna make me feel known, loved, respected, valued, and important.

And it doesn’t happen. It, it doesn’t come. And, um, and I think this whole concept of what does it mean to be well known is just to realize right where you are in this very moment. You are known, fully known, fully loved as you are. In your mess, in the chaos, as unknown as you might be in worldly standards, you are so very well known by your creator, and you are desired, and you are wanted, and that you have purpose and that you are created for a reason, for this very time at this very moment, and for a person.

Right. You were created for a reason and you were created for a [00:57:00] person. And so it, it’s helping us all take a step back from the very, um, influencer world that we live in. There’s no shade, not costing any judgment on the influencer model and helping us all realize that doesn’t mean you’re known, right, and that you are already known as you are right where you are.

Rory: So there you have it, friends. Um. Wealthy and well-known. You can download the audiobook for free one more time. Free brand audiobook.com/podcast. Uh, we’d love it. Also, if you considered ordering a copy or getting send one to a friend, uh, if you’re not able to do that financially, share this episode with them.

Just give, share the episode. Episodes totally free. Um, with someone who needs it. The book is quite tactical also, uh, we, we, uh, I wanted to interview AJ on more of the kind of heart emotional side, so you could get to see that side of her, but, um, it’s, it is quite tactical as well. [00:58:00] And, um, I think I, I speak for AJ when I say, you know, we feel like we’re stewards of this message.

We feel like we’re stewards of brand builders group. This was not our plan. You’ve now heard the story. We didn’t have a brilliant plan. We didn’t have a strategy. It, it all happened to us. Right? And for us, and for us, and more importantly, for you and for others. And the same is true with your life. It’s not, it’s not just happening to you, it’s happening for you.

And more importantly, it’s happening for others. Mm-hmm. Because your pain is preparing you for your purpose. So thanks for letting us be a part of your journey. Uh, hope you’ll support the book, share the episode, the podcast with a friend, and we wish you all the best.