WWK Ep 022: Followers Don’t Pay the Bills: The Real Formula for Wealthy & Well Known Brands
RORY (00:00)
A creator’s favorite form of creative avoidance is creating. A creator’s favorite form of creative avoidance is creating. They love to create, create, create, create, and they never tell anyone they exist. And if you’re not willing to go chase and you’re not willing to talk about, if you don’t care so passionately about your calling that you’re not going to share it with anyone, like you’re going to struggle.
What if all of the personal brands that you follow, the ones that seem to be building and growing effortlessly, the ones that are landing the big stages and the big speaking engagements, the big book deals, getting lots of followers, growing their online presence, what if there was a formula that they were following? Well, here’s the thing, they are.
Almost all of them. are very similar patterns and we’re going to talk about them today. Whether those creators know that they’re doing it or not. There are several identifiable, duplicatable systems and formulas that any personal brand can apply. And that’s what we’re here to pull the curtain back on and expose and share with you today. Welcome to the Wealthy and Well-Known Podcast. I’m joined by my wife, business partner, best friend, ⁓ and the CEO of Brand Builders Group, AJ Vadant.
AJ (01:14)
All right, so here’s the first question of the day that we’re going to talk about. What makes a personal brand go viral? And is there a formula that you can actually follow?
RORY (01:27)
Yeah, so I would say that the formula for going viral is watching the formulas that go viral. So basically when you see a video go viral, what we’re seeing today is that right now creators are watching the hook structures, the formats and the patterns that when a video goes viral, it’s because of the structure of the video and the format of the video as much as the framework of the video, right?
It’s not just what you’re saying. It’s not just what you’re teaching. It’s more about how you’re presenting that idea, how you reveal it, how you ⁓ unroll it, and even how you edit the video. So what’s happening is people are seeing a video go viral and then they’re just replicating those formulas.
AJ (02:18)
Let’s pause
there. Let’s talk about what are some of those formulas.
RORY (02:21)
Yeah, so I mean, there’s there’s hundreds of these hook formulas, right? And people talk about them. But like one that’s really popular right now is, if I had to start over from scratch today, and I wanted to achieve blank, here’s exactly what I would do. Right? That’s a really, a really, a really classic one that’s like going viral right now. Another thing that is going viral right now is ⁓ when people are putting multiple videos on the screen. So it’s like, here’s an example of this, here’s an example of this, here’s an example of
We had a video go massively viral, hundreds of thousands of views, ⁓ thousands and thousands of comments and stuff. And it’s exactly that. Here’s this, here’s this, here’s this, here’s this. And it’s not the quality of the content. It’s not the framework. It’s the format. I’m not sure how I feel about all of this, right? But a lot of, think, what is
important to understand and what we do at brand builders group right is we’re dissecting and understanding a lot of these patterns not just for going viral on video going viral on videos like one of our our least valuable concerns because it’s not necessarily what drives revenue and trust long term but it is a great example of to go everything we do at brand builders group where you go how to become a best-selling author
How do you sell high dollar offers? How do you fill out rooms? How do you speak on the biggest stages? It’s a formula. It’s always a formula. It’s all about pattern recognition. And so I think it’s one of the things you could say, what do you really do at Brand Builders Group is like we identify the patterns, we then reconstruct them in a pragmatic way that anyone can follow. And then we teach them in all these different areas of a business.
AJ (03:59)
So I think what would be really helpful for everyone listening, me included, I think one of the things that a lot of people talk about are the patterns. They talk about the algorithm. They don’t really tell the end user like, go try this, go do this. And I think a part of it is you have to try many things to see what’s gonna click with your audience. But if someone was listening today going, okay, great, give me the three formulas to go and try online, what would they be? So I think you listed two of them, right?
if I had to start all over I would do this. Yeah. The second one would be multiple screens of going like give people the images of multiple things that you’re showing all at the same time.
RORY (04:41)
So the real answer to your question is the one thing that I would do is I would follow the top creators in your space. I would look at which of their videos are over indexing, meaning they have way more views than they had followers, right? So this is an important thing is to go, if a video has 100,000 views, is that an over indexing video? And the answer is, it depends on how many followers they have. If you have 5 million followers in your video, got 100,000 views, not so much.
5000 followers and you got 100,000 views. That is a rich, there’s a rich idea, there’s a rich format, there’s a rich opportunity there. So the the, the formula, it’s not the best thing is not for me to just give you a formula. It’s different in every space. The the granular overarching formula is follow the top creators, pay attention to what’s working for them, and then replicate your own version of that.
And that is particularly in the space of viral online video, we’re talking carousel, well, not even video, but just carousel posts, reels, YouTube, you’re going to see if you watch closely all the top creators, that is what they are doing. And it’s a fascinating study because it tells you that the psychology
is very consistent of the human brain and very repeatable. And so you can go I can watch what a fitness trainer did to go viral. And mostly what we’re copying is the hook structure the first three seconds. Now when we teach what is a hook, a hook is anything you do or say in the first three seconds to get people to keep watching. That’s how we define it because I’ve never seen anyone define it. Right. So that’s how we define it.
And a great one example of a hook structure that we teach is the I want blank test is to say how would your viewer answer the question I want blank and then tell them in this video, I’m going to teach you and fill in whatever however they would answer the I want blank. That would be a generic hook structure that works really well that if you don’t want to do all this other stuff, you go, just use the I want blank test. But now people are even using AI to track all of these patterns and go,
this woman hosts a cooking show and she said, you know, here’s five things I would have learned, I wish I knew when I first started cooking. And you take out the word cooking, but here’s five things I wish I learned when I first started speaking. And then that’s it. So the psychological structures, it’s about the pattern is noticing the pattern.
AJ (07:15)
So I think one of the things that would be helpful is to talk about what are some of the other formulas, right? So you’ve got a format formula, which is kind of what you’ve been talking about and the different types of format. Would you say that there’s any specific formulas to follow when it comes to duration or any way to end the video, captions or some other, are there some other formulas that we should talk about that would be helpful for anyone listening today?
RORY (07:41)
⁓ There’s one other very advanced thing that I would share that I think is universal enough to everybody listening and that is that if you have four parts in a video, okay, so say you have four points, it’s a YouTube video and there’s four points. Point number one should be shorter than point number two. Point number two should be shorter than point number three. Point number three should be shorter than point number four, meaning
When people feel like they’re making progress early, they’re more likely to stay. If they feel like it’s dragging on, they tend to leave. But if you go, okay, you hook them in the first three seconds, and then what you’re seeing in a lot of these other YouTube videos is hooks within the video. So the most important hook is the opening hook. But then you say, hey, you mentioned something like, there’s three ways to create
You know, there’s three patterns that every creator needs to know to go viral. And the first one’s right now. And I’ll tell you the second one in a sec in just a minute. That is a hook inside of a hook. It’s going I’ll tell you the second one in a second. I’ve just told them about something else that is about to come. And that’s what kind of the definition of a hook is. So that is another sort of psychological pattern that we’re seeing pretty consistently is this idea that you’ve got
shorter points earlier in the video. There’s something going on that when people feel like they’re making progress, like if you can get them through the first few chapters, then they’re likely to stay longer. And then they give you more permission to give you more of their time basically as time goes on.
AJ (09:21)
What about anything in your opinion with reels versus stories versus carousels versus all the other things when you think about different formulas patterns and formats?
RORY (09:34)
Yeah, I mean, another carousel thing that’s going viral, and by the way, I would not consider myself an expert on this. This is not where we spend a lot of our time, which is what I think we can get to is to go, a good question is to go, why don’t we spend more of our time studying this stuff? And because this, lot of this stuff to me points more to vanity metrics than it does to profitability. But inside of this area, which we do spend some time studying, another really common
thing that’s performing really well right now is your backstory. Like your personal story. People are tuning in to where did you start and if it’s a carousel post, it’s like pictures, right? So I’m working on one of these right now where it’s like I’m taking pictures from all of these different areas of my life, where the picture is worth a thousand words. And it says, here’s where I started. Here’s what I wanted to do. Here’s where I struggled.
This is what was low. This is what I did. This is what I learned. Here’s what happened. And now I can teach you comment blah, blah, blah below for the opt in those personal stories are performing super well right now. I think about that’s a great carousel post formula.
And I think the other thing that is performing well, you know, lot of people will say you don’t sell on your feed, you sell in your stories. That’s where and really we say the dollars are in the DMS. That’s really where sales happens. But like even lead generation happens more in the stories. So you attract them with the content on your feed, you nurture them inside of your stories and you convert them in your DMS or on a free call. But inside stories is a lot of where customer testimonials are being shared. That’s another really common thing of going you need one
thousand customer testimonials, and you post a couple every day inside the stories. Because when people find you from your feed content, they go, wow, this was valuable, who is this person? And then they follow you closely, they go in your stories, and then they’re seeing, whoa, you’ve helped this person get a result, and this person helped them get a result, and this person helped get a result. And now I’m interested in engaging in potentially buying.
AJ (11:42)
So for the
person who’s listening going, that feels like a lot of work. I felt like a lot to do. Uh, how, what do I, what, do you want me to do here? I have a, I have a full-time gig. I have a full-time job. Like who’s supposed to film me? Who’s supposed to edit all this? Who’s supposed to know all these formulas? Who’s supposed to know all these formats? What would you say to that?
RORY (12:02)
I would say yeah, you’re right. It’s a lot of work. Like there’s no free lunch as grandma used to say, right? Like everything that looks effortless is not effortless. So there is a whole lot of people getting sold a bunch of garbage because on the surface it’s like, ⁓ you know, I’m a stay at home. I’m a mom of four and I run my own business and I do it all through Instagram and AI comment this below and sign up for my webinar. And then they’ll buy something that’s just like
garbage because the reality is this is someone who is working 12 hours a day or they have a team or they’re spending a bunch of money on ads or like it’s like there there is their excellence is never an accident. It’s never an accident.
AJ (12:46)
I would say even that it’s not even excellence. It’s like even the effort and all of this is not to be taken lightly to come up with the content to learn the formulas to just even follow the other top creators in your space. All of that is an extraordinarily large commitment of time, energy, money and resources. If this is what you’re really trying to do. And I think that’s one of the things I just kind of wanted to highlight is
And I love the idea of like, yes, follow the top people in your field and then realize as you’re following them, they have a team. Like they have someone following them. ⁓ They have video editors, they have graphic designers. Like that is, it’s not apples to apples.
RORY (13:31)
So I would love to talk about this question. How do I know if my personal brand is actually working? What metrics should I actually be tracking? So if we’re saying like, look, I can show you a list of people who’ve gone viral who struggle to pay their bills. And I can show you a list of people who you’ve never seen a video of theirs online and they fly in private jets. And it’s just ironic the world that we live in is there’s a whole lot of like, you know, drawn to the vanity stuff.
And so I think this is topic that we should talk about is what are the metrics that I should be tracking? What are the actual measurable KPIs that are going to lead to dollars?
AJ (14:13)
Well, ironically, none of those, in my opinion, would be found on social media. In my books, the actual metrics would be number of calls being generated and run, which could come from social media, but those are a lot harder to come by.
RORY (14:31)
But we would
rather have a video with a hundred views that drove five free calls than a video with 50,000 views that drove no free calls.
AJ (14:39)
all day long, every day. It would be the number of clients being converted. It would be number of clients that are retaining. It’d be the number of referrals being sent by clients because then it’s like proof that your work is actually working. would count client testimonials as a KPI because it’s proof of what’s working. Number of presentations that you’re giving and presentations could be keynotes on stages, workshops in your local community,
podcast interviews, it’s whatever you’re doing to get your message out into the world. ⁓ Those would be the actual metrics that I would be looking at. It’s like how many calls are being generated, calls being run, clients being converted, clients being retained, referrals being sent. And then on top of that, it would be like, what are all the other things you’re doing to generate the calls, which are your presentations?
RORY (15:12)
going on.
Yeah, it’s funny, I literally just got off of a live training with our members. And I was we were talking about the success tracker. So this tool that we created that tracks basically the eight core metrics that every personal brand needs to drive for behavior, and then the four results that they measure. it’s it’s like, how many emails have you added to your list? So that that’s to me is like, the most digital thing to care about is like, how many email subscribers, but even that is super misleading, because it’s like,
AJ (15:55)
emails.
RORY (16:04)
you can add free emails all day from all over the place that like have nothing to do with the people that are actually going to do business with you. But that is a first metric. Sure. As going emails, then you know how many phone numbers you collect, how many free calls requested, how many free calls ran. And then it is presentations given referrals given referrals earned. And it’s like if you do those things, and you focus on you know, how many media pitches have you sent?
those things will lead to actual money. It’s you getting in front of humans in more of an offline way or more of a longer form content way. I will say that I am being drawn more to YouTube is going.
I think, you know, YouTube is really a place where trust can transfer because it’s long form content, right? And, and, you know, there was a study, I believe it was from Google that came out that said seven hours, people need to spend seven hours online with you before they actually would be willing to like, making an investment. And you know, in the world of YouTube, that might be like 10 to 14 videos in the world of reels. It’s like, it’s pretty much impossible to get to seven hours. mean,
AJ (17:14)
I that is one demographic that we should definitely be talking about. To not talk about it would be not fair. But I would just tell you, in my personal opinion, it’s like if someone who I do not go to YouTube or to social media to find experts, it’s like if I’m really looking for someone to hire, if I’m really going after that one, I’m going to ask for referrals from my network. So it’s going to be word of mouth. Or I’m going to read their book. And time-wise,
It’s similar. It’s like the average book is six to seven hours in length. So whether I read it or I listen to the audio, but it’s like, if I’m really going to invest.
thousands of dollars or tens of thousands of dollars. I’m not going to do it just off of social media content or even off of YouTube content. It’s not going to be just off of a podcast interview. It’s because I heard about someone that I, that I trust. Like I trust someone. I heard about someone else. I went then and investigated, found that they had a book or found that they had a free course. I’m tested that. Then I’m going to request a call. Like there’s a series of multiple things that can happen online and offline. But the thing that’s going to expedite all of those
is that someone I trust said, this is who I trust. And that could be…
someone that I already really like, know and trust as a personal friend. It could be someone as a thought leader that I’m an avid follower of and I just align with their content. But that’s gonna be the thing that’s gonna expedite it more than anything else. And those things can happen online and offline. But the first thing I’m gonna do before I invest tens of thousands of dollars, I’m like, do they have a book and I’m gonna go read it?
RORY (18:53)
Yeah, and I think, you know, this is a good question. How do, ⁓ excuse me, what is the difference between personal brand awareness and personal brand authority? And I think that’s part of what you’re talking about, right? Awareness is like, okay, a lot of people see me, but authority means people actually trust you enough to buy from you. And when you look at what are the resources, what are the assets that you can create that create personal brand authority that
actually make people want to buy from you. The number one thing on the list, and this is in our national research studies, is 61 % of Americans say that testimonials from other customers is the most influential marketing asset that you have. The others would be a book, the other is you’re paid to speak on your topic, the other is you’re featured in media for your expertise, right? But when you look at followers, views, likes, all that stuff.
much, much, much lower because you just you can game it, you can fake it, you can buy it. And we all know that and everybody is doing that. And so it’s different where it’s like, that’s why I think people have to spend seven hours with us online before they trust us. They have to spend much longer. Whereas we know that
AJ (19:54)
And we all know that.
longer.
RORY (20:11)
you can do, we often say that the fastest way to take a complete stranger and turn them into a lifelong fan is a world-class one-hour presentation. We know that in an offline environment, the trust happens much, much faster. And so getting in front of humans and even like a live webinar is gonna be ⁓ such a more trust-accelerating experience than just a bunch of kind of like loosely connected videos.
AJ (20:36)
I agree. And I think that’s one of the things that’s really important. Micro content may get you followers. It may get you likes. It might get you shares. I have often found it’s not going to produce revenue.
It’s like it’s a part of a formula. It’s like you’ve got to get them to start engaging with you. Then they have to start following with you. But then at some point you have to move them off the platform and into your email list so that you can then invite them to some longer engagement, a free webinar, a free audio thing, a free, whatever it is. And that relationship has got to continue into longer forms of content.
uh, where there can be a real trust transfer, but that’s not going to happen in 30 to 60 second reels.
RORY (21:20)
Mm Yeah. By the way, so if you’re listening, if you haven’t yet, you can download our audiobook at free brand audiobook.com slash podcast. So wealthy and well known at the New York Times bestseller list last year, we give up. This is why we give our audiobook away for free is it’s like, it’s the fastest way for someone to figure out is brand builders a fit for me? And can they really help me? And do we kind of align philosophically? And that’s why we give it out because we know that if we haven’t met someone face to face, they got to spend some time and they’ll and and so we
give that resource.
AJ (21:51)
And ironically, it’s about seven hours. Seven ⁓ hours.
RORY (21:54)
That’s right.
Okay, here’s another question and then we’ll go to the community question. How do thought leaders consistently get booked, featured, and referenced without chasing opportunities? So, if we’re saying, okay, getting booked to speak on stages, getting cited in the media, ⁓ if those are things that lead to true authority, true trust,
building transaction accelerating authority. How do thought leaders go get booked on those things without chasing opportunities?
AJ (22:29)
I would not necessarily say that thought leaders aren’t chasing opportunities.
RORY (22:34)
I’m gonna say the same. The air is in.
AJ (22:38)
the question.
The errors in the question. like, I’m going, ⁓ no, if you want to be out there, then you are out there selling and promoting yourself. You are marketing of why you should be a trusted resource. You are selling yourself. You are pitching yourself. You are putting yourself out there and making yourself available. This whole idea of they’re not chasing opportunities. And somehow magically people are just emailing them and calling them and DMing them of going, I don’t, know you’ve never reached out to us before, but you know, I randomly found you.
like that’s not not happening. And that’s the best
RORY (23:13)
The best speakers in the world are not sitting at home manifesting speaking gigs. They are out hustling, talking to people, writing books, producing content, building relationships, giving referrals, crushing it on stage, staying late, asking who do you know, sending pitches. Like if you are above chasing opportunities, you’re just never going to find opportunities. And like you might find a few, like a few may find you, but that is not going to be that’s not going to be the key to building your career.
You want this, you have to go chase it. You have to go knock it.
AJ (23:45)
down. But
I do think it’s one of those things like, you know, it’s, we say this all the time, the more you speak, the more you speak. And that’s because the more that you’re putting yourself out there, the more that you’re chasing the opportunities and saying, yes, when it’s right, and it’s aligned and putting yourself in the right opportunities and the right positions to be seen, to be noticed, to be heard, ⁓ then naturally, there is a momentum that starts to build. But again, like anything, when you stop it, the momentum stops too.
So I do think there’s this interesting thing where it’s like, I only have to do this for a little while and then it’s going to catch. And it’s like, well, it could catch for a minute. But I can’t think of anyone that we know who is uber successful in this space doing something that has lasted over the decades that isn’t continually putting effort out there into keeping that engine moving.
RORY (24:38)
Totally.
Even I remember in grad school, there was this this case study about Coca-Cola and they were talking about however many hundreds of millions and billions they spend on advertising every year. I think it was like 80 million dollars a year on advertising. is 20 years ago. But and somebody asked the CEO like, you’re Coca-Cola. You don’t need to advertise. Like, why do you spend 80 million dollars a year in advertising? He’s like, if we didn’t spend 80 million dollars on advertising, it’s like a car. No matter how good a car is, it still needs fuel to run. Like that is the fuel.
This I’m going to say something that’s going to make a lot of people upset, but you heard it here first. A creator’s favorite form of creative avoidance is creating. A creator’s favorite form of creative avoidance is creating. They love to create, create, create, create, and they never tell anyone they exist. And if you’re not willing to go chase and you’re not willing to talk about, if you don’t care so passionately about your calling that you’re not going to share it with anyone, like you’re going to struggle. You’re just going to struggle.
AJ (25:38)
But that
kind of comes back to what we said in the very beginning. It’s like, yeah, it does take a lot of time, energy, resources, and money to even figure out this social media thing. It’s like you do have to chase it, right? It is an engine that requires fuel. It requires your content, your creativity, your constant adjusting and flexing with what the algorithm is doing, what the market is doing. So again, the idea of set it and forget it, that’s just not the world that we’re living in online or offline.
All right, let’s move on to the community question. Yes, so
is one of our favorite parts of the show because we get to take a question that has been voted on by our BBG community. All of the questions were input, the community voted on. This was the top one and that’s what we’re gonna answer today. So here it is. Here’s what’s been selected. It’s from Tiffany. I’ve been posting content consistently for eight months. I have a clear niche.
Decent production quality and I genuinely believe in what I’m teaching. But my growth has flatlined at around 800 followers and I can’t figure out what’s missing. I feel like I’m doing everything the gurus say to do, but something isn’t clicking. What’s the one invisible thing I’m probably not seeing that’s keeping me stuck at this ceiling?
RORY (27:10)
two ways to grow on social media, Tiffany. One is organic, the other is paid. The thing that you’re not seeing is what it actually takes to grow with either of those strategies. To grow organically requires a team or a lot of time, understanding and monitoring viral patterns. You’ve got to study what the other it’s not just what you’re saying. It’s not what you’re saying. It’s how you’re saying it is probably the format. It’s the presentation of it. It’s the structure. It’s the hook.
And as AI takes off, more creators are soaking up more of the attention because they’re spending their time and they’re developing their teams developing tools to ⁓ reproduce those hook structures and those hook patterns. So that’s one thing.
AJ (27:52)
before you move on to the next, because mine is connected to that, it’s the key words in this that stuck out to me is for eight months. And there’s just a part of that where I know we all want it to be done now and eight months might feel like a long time, but it’s not. And eight months is just the beginning. And if you have gone from zero to 800 months,
our 800 followers in eight months, that’s a hundred new followers every month. And if you’re not putting ad spin behind it and you’re like, I’m just doing what I’m figuring out. It’s like, I’d be pretty proud of that. All right. Like that, that’s not what you probably want to hear, but I would just encourage it’s like, if you had said, I’ve been doing this consistently in this way for this long for five years and I’m stuck, I’d be like, okay, there’s a problem, but this is eight months and nothing is going to have monumental explosive success.
in this world at this current state of things with eight months.
RORY (28:48)
Yeah, that’s a good
word. That’s a good word. The other way to grow on social media is paid. And that’s what you’re not seeing. The people who are growing massively are paying for it. They’re not buying fake followers, but they are paying lots of money. I’m talking tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars every month.
to show their content to more people. So they’re hiring expensive crews, they have expensive equipment, they have expensive, they got teams that are doing research, and then they’re building, they’re building teams, and they’re pushing money in the front because they have a business model in the back that pays for it. That’s a part of what we teach people how to do a brand builders group is to go, okay, how do you put
$100,000 in the machine is you can do that as long as you know there’s 250,000 coming out the back end. Now we teach our clients to grow without paid ads, right? That’s not a huge part of our strategy until later later down the road. But that’s the thing that you’re not seeing when people are growing and it looks effortless. One, it’s not effortless. And two, there’s probably a ton of money. And many of the biggest creators, okay, not to expose the secret. Many of the biggest creators are spending
millions of dollars just promoting and boosting and pushing their content in front of more people. And that’s going to continue to happen. And so the future of marketing is not about who has the best content. It’s about who has the most sophisticated system. And if you are someone who wants to learn how to build a more sophisticated system, go to freebrandcall.com slash podcast, you can request a call with our team, we’ll do an intake to see where you’re at and we’ll create a
a custom journey for you of what you need to do to take the next steps to grow your business and also to determine if we might be a fit as a partner to help you in that journey. But it is frustrating and it is discouraging and it’s hard and it’s hard. It’s hard for us. It’s hard for everybody. It’s a dogfight right now.
AJ (30:46)
It’s discouraging when you’re comparing your numbers to someone else’s. And when you’re focused on, I have impacted and I have grown from zero to 800 people who are now absorbing my content, getting value from my content. I am now serving 800 people that I wasn’t eight months ago. It’s not discouraging at all. It’s actually quite encouraging. The only part’s discouraging is when you’re comparing your step one to someone else’s step 1,000. And that’s the hard part about the online world.
Is it so easy to look at everyone else’s doing and think that what you’re doing doesn’t matter? But those 800 people, they do matter. Those aren’t followers. Those are human beings. And I would be encouraged if I were you.
RORY (31:29)
love that. Well, ⁓ if those 800 people were in a room right now, you certainly would be that’s right be fired up and impacting them. So hey, send this episode to somebody that you know that you think might enjoy it. And if you’ve been listening for a while, we’d love for you to rate comment review this show wherever you listen to it. We’re so glad you’re here. Keep coming back. We’re going to encourage you and we’re going to hopefully inspire you and share with you the strategies that are working to help you get your mission out to more people. We’ll catch you next time.
AJ (32:03)
We don’t want you to be invisible.
RORY (32:05)
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WWK Ep 021: The Fastest Way to Become a True Thought Leader (Hint: It’s Not More Content) with Jason Dorsey
Jason: [00:00:00] If you don’t have original research, you are just sharing opinions [00:00:05] and. If you look around these rooms, there’s a ton of people filled with opinions and even great [00:00:10] stories. But if you want people to invest and invest significant money [00:00:15] in you or in your business, you know what you’re trying to offer to them, the problem you’re trying to solve, you need data [00:00:20] to back it up.[00:00:25] [00:00:30] [00:00:35]
Rory: How do you truly stand out as a thought leader in a world of ai? How do you get [00:00:40] yourself featured in the media? How do you get booked to speak on the biggest [00:00:45] stages? Those are all topics that we’re gonna talk about today on this edition of the Wealthy and Well-Known [00:00:50] podcast. I’m being joined by one of my best friends, one of the smartest people [00:00:55] that I know, and also one of the most successful personal brands in the world.
You’re about to meet Jason [00:01:00] Dorsey, who is a bestselling author. His most recent book is Z Economy. He is one of [00:01:05] the highest paid, most booked speakers, particularly in the non-celebrity [00:01:10] category, but as a true thought leader and expert, uh, one of the busiest speakers in the [00:01:15] world today. Uh, he also runs with his wife, the Center for Generational Kinetics, which [00:01:20] is.
Perhaps, at least in my opinion, the most respectable research firm [00:01:25] in the world. We are clients of his and we’re gonna talk about how using [00:01:30] original research is a huge part of the future of building personal brands. Just in the last [00:01:35] week, he has had inbound media requests from, uh, media or. [00:01:40] From media outlets like CNBC, Bloomberg, [00:01:45] CNN.
He’s regularly been featured in the New York Times and several other places. The USA [00:01:50] today, their work appears all over and they work with some of the most respectable corporate clients in the world [00:01:55] to create. Proprietary research, and also, as I mentioned, we have been a client of [00:02:00] theirs and we referred several of our members at Brand Builders Group to do original research studies.[00:02:05]
It’s one of the things that we are inviting our authors at Mission-Driven Press to do, uh, as part of a [00:02:10] regular pub. Let’s just cut that part about MDP. So I’m excited to have [00:02:15] Jason, welcome to the show, buddy. Hey, thank you.
Jason: Thrilled to be here. Thrilled to be a [00:02:20] non-celebrity, busy speaker. I knew you were gonna say something about it.
Yes. Finally I did it. I’m just one tier [00:02:25] below those celebrities.
Rory: Well, I, I, you know, and, and it’s, you know, I say that tongue in cheek, but it’s, it is [00:02:30] true and it’s, and it’s a pride point because you get paid a lot of money [00:02:35] as a speaker and to be in boardrooms and to be on boards and to be an advisor [00:02:40] to companies.
It has nothing to do with your celebrity. I mean, it has something to do with [00:02:45] some of your celebrity, but it has mostly everything to do with your research.
Jason: Mm-hmm. [00:02:50]
Rory: And the original insights that you bring. So I wanna start right there. Tell [00:02:55] us why research
Jason: mm-hmm.
Rory: Is, has been a [00:03:00] critical part of your journey, and why do you think original research is [00:03:05] important for personal brands?
You know, in the future?
Jason: I have a, a [00:03:10] core belief that has driven my work and, and caused all the growth for our business and with our [00:03:15] clientele. And that is if you own the data, you own the conversation. [00:03:20] And it changed my life, changed my career, changed everything about our business, the [00:03:25] opportunities we got, the influence we had, the people we got to meet, the, the work we got to do.
Because [00:03:30] the world right now is full of opinions, tons of opinions, and it’s dominated by opinions and [00:03:35] observation. The problem now is executives and entrepreneurs and [00:03:40] business leaders and people making big bets. Don’t wanna make them based on [00:03:45] opinions and observations.
Rory: Mm.
Jason: They, they already have enough risk in their life and in their business.
[00:03:50] They are trying to ground their decisions, ground their strategy, base their [00:03:55] vision on tangible, real data that they can trust and believe in to [00:04:00] inform and really give them an advantage. And so what that means for us and for our clients [00:04:05] is we’re the people that our competitors cite. Which is amazing. I [00:04:10] have this, this, this core belief that if you are having to cite other people’s data to make your point, [00:04:15] you are not the expert somebody else is.
Now, you may be adding your own perspective to it and [00:04:20] stories and all that. I got it, I got it. But the reality is you want to be the one who cited. And [00:04:25] so for us, when we lead statistically accurate studies, whether that’s nationally or globally, [00:04:30] all of a sudden we’re the source of truth. And I think that’s so important right now in the age of ai.
[00:04:35] It’s easier than ever before to create content on any platform in any way you want. But what you can’t create is [00:04:40] statistically valid research that leaders are looking for to separate myth from [00:04:45] truth. And I mean, you’ve heard me speak a bunch of times at these big events like. I believe it’s [00:04:50] never been more important, like truly a calling to separate myth from truth.
It is so [00:04:55] hard these days to know what’s real and what’s just made up. And when you give people real [00:05:00] data that they can bank on, that they can truly make tough decisions. ’cause remember, [00:05:05] decisions today are high risk. When you think about executives, they’re trying to not only [00:05:10] grow their business, they’re trying to keep their people employed, right?
They’re, they’re trying to deliver sure for customers and shareholders, [00:05:15] but they’re feeling the pressure. Entrepreneurs today, more competition than ever before. Put out a new [00:05:20] book, more books published this year than ever before. So how do you not just stand out? I [00:05:25] think that’s too low of a bar. How are you truly unique and own a space where [00:05:30] you are recognized as the one that’s leading the field, maybe even [00:05:35] inventing a field.
And, and the way I think about that is you wanna have the data. You wanna own the data [00:05:40] that fills in the gaps. It’s not that like, you know, I speak on generations. It’s not [00:05:45] that millennials are entitled, okay, that’s interesting, but not new. Why? What shaped that? [00:05:50] What caused it? Is it actually true? Why are millennials two generations, not one?
Why do [00:05:55] millennials most dislike other millennials in the workforce? Right? These are things that if you can get to the root cause, we’re [00:06:00] like, oh, I never thought about that. I always wondered that. That’s the emotional response [00:06:05] that drives people to wanna work with you because you’re hitting them logically.
Like, okay, that makes total sense. And emotionally [00:06:10] I’ve seen that, or that answers a core question of mine versus here’s another story or [00:06:15] a poem, or, you know, three points for my life. I think people, particularly executives and leaders, [00:06:20] and those in positions of responsibility, they like all that sort of stuff.
There’s a place for it. [00:06:25] But when it comes to big decisions. Challenging times, uncertain economies, more [00:06:30] competition than before. AI’s emergence. They’re looking for research and data they can count on [00:06:35] and it’s, it’s why clients like you and others. Come to us over and over and over again and [00:06:40] all these big fancy bestselling authors who we love working with and celebrities, but so many [00:06:45] corporations use us to do their thought leadership research
Rory: well, and, and that’s [00:06:50] interesting nuance to me that never, I never fully understood.
I mean, it, it took a while [00:06:55] for me to really understand how you use research and I was like, why [00:07:00] would companies. Pay all of this money for you to do research and then they don’t [00:07:05] share the research with other people. Like as a thought leader, I’m going, the whole reason I wanna do a research study is to put it [00:07:10] out to like Yeah.
You know, establish our thought leadership and, and all that. And what you just said is [00:07:15] going, there’s, there’s kind of two ways to use the data. One is that these companies invest a lot of [00:07:20] money for actual. Research and data to make their own internal [00:07:25] strategic decisions.
Jason: Mm-hmm.
Rory: And that’s why it’s like they’re not sharing it, it’s a competitive advantage.
Jason: Mm-hmm.
Rory: But [00:07:30] that also ties into why personal brands need to have data, because that’s [00:07:35] what the big companies, and that’s what, you know, very intellectual, sophisticated [00:07:40] types of, you know, buyers. That’s what they’re looking for and that’s what they’re gonna respond to. [00:07:45] Mm-hmm. Not just, oh, you had a, you had a video.
Go vi, you had a TikTok.
Jason: Mm-hmm.
Rory: Video go [00:07:50] viral.
Jason: Yeah. And, and the way I think about it is in the corporate world, you know, our clients [00:07:55] are banks and healthcare systems and huge tech companies and, you know, you can just go through the [00:08:00] whole long list. And I like to say they, it’s not even 80 20, they probably keep [00:08:05] 90, 95% of the discoveries that we, um.
You know, gain for them [00:08:10] internal and use it to inform their strategy. You know, I speak at all these corporate boards and no recording, like [00:08:15] all this sort of stuff, right? Like this is their competitive advantage. Their competitive intelligence is gonna shape their [00:08:20] strategy for the next five, 10 plus years.
And they’ll share maybe five, max, 10% of the [00:08:25] discoveries because they then want to put out, Hey, we found all these things. This is informing our product [00:08:30] roadmap. This is informing, uh, the way we’re delivering services or pr developing new products or serving our [00:08:35] employees. So they still wanna be known for it.
But they’re gonna keep most of it internal. On the personal brand [00:08:40] side, it’s completely flipped,
Rory: which has also become a, a huge [00:08:45] new pool of people for you. And I wanna understand why has that happen? You know, you used to do. More [00:08:50] corporate where it’s like, it’s more internal. Yeah. Decision making. But now there is, uh, you [00:08:55] know, a rising tide of, of entrepreneurs and personal brands who are coming to you.
So,
Jason: [00:09:00] mm-hmm.
Rory: Why? And and how is that work?
Jason: Well, what happened originally is a lot of people [00:09:05] coming to me going, Jason, how are you in the media all the time?
Rory: Right?
Jason: How are you keynoting these huge conferences? ’cause [00:09:10] it’ll be like me. Some Hall of Fame football player, a former president, you know, and maybe somebody [00:09:15] from McKinsey or some Harvard economist, and they’re like, how are you featured on the main stage and have more time [00:09:20] than any of them.
Yeah. Which happens all the time. And I’m like, ’cause people want insights they can use, they [00:09:25] want data they can’t get anywhere else, so they go. Oh, I got it. I could totally use that. Or that [00:09:30] solves that problem or I never thought about it that way. Or you know, you wanna really fill in these gaps for them.
[00:09:35] And so once I started being on all those stages all around the world, and the beautiful thing about data [00:09:40] is it translates and it travels, it has handles, people take it all over the place. I mean, we do so much [00:09:45] international work, it really opens up markets. So, so that happened. And then all these personal brands who [00:09:50] you and I know are like Jason.
Love you, man, but you’re not huge on Instagram. [00:09:55] You don’t have a big LinkedIn following,
Rory: right?
Jason: You know, you’re not all these things like, how is this happening? I’m like, well, we [00:10:00] have what they can’t get anywhere else, right? And, and because of that, once you’re the [00:10:05] source of truth, everybody wants you. And, and so it started like that.
So then we started working with a few personal [00:10:10] brands and it was like, Hey, you know, we’ll do for you what we’ve done for us. Um, but we need your help. And I think this is a, a [00:10:15] real key. Personal brand research strategy and thought leadership strategy is different than [00:10:20] corporate, right? When it comes to personal brands, we wanna really understand what is the position you’re [00:10:25] seeking to own.
Mm. You want to be the source of truth, you wanna be the one who cited. So [00:10:30] we think about it as like, what are your dream headlines that will come out of your research study? Or [00:10:35] what are the questions that if you knew the answer to everybody would cite you or come to you or hire [00:10:40] you? When you think about like the core markets for the people that, for example, that, that you know, uh, so [00:10:45] many who learned from you.
Entrepreneurs, they love that dramatically grows their business. They make so much money off our [00:10:50] studies, all these personal brands. When you have coaches and consultants and people that are selling professional [00:10:55] services or parts of membership, they love it. ’cause now they have something that’s tangible.
They can turn into all these things, [00:11:00] it’s evergreen, and they’re now the source of truth in something that’s very intangible. So all of a [00:11:05] sudden those sorts of groups released it. Then with authors, what happened is they’re like, oh, well. I went [00:11:10] to go sell the book, Jason, and when I put in there that we were gonna do a national research study, we got all this interest.
We’ve [00:11:15] had so many friends get huge book deals or choose to do their own because they were able to generate so much [00:11:20] business from it. So it’s when you do a study, you get something tangible out of it. That then [00:11:25] drives something tangible. And I think so much today doesn’t do that for people, particularly personal brands.
Rory: Mm-hmm. [00:11:30]
Jason: You know, there’s a lot of hype out there.
Rory: It’s a lot of hype and there’s a lot of, there’s a lot of people [00:11:35] with fancy demo reels ’cause there’s good video editors that can make you look better on stage. There’s a lot of people [00:11:40] with big social media followings. ’cause you can fake that. There’s no shortage of books that are [00:11:45] coming out and, you know, some legitimate bestsellers, some not so legitimate, but get to say [00:11:50] they’re bestseller, whatever.
Yeah. Um, but. It’s interesting because you do, [00:11:55] you do these research, this is what a research report looks like, right.
Jason: For state of Gen [00:12:00] Z.
Rory: This is, this is your internal one. So a lot of times when you put these together for clients, [00:12:05] they, um, you know, this is what a, like a deliverable would be. You would give them data and then they [00:12:10] would turn it into maybe something like this.
Mm-hmm. Is to go one, one thing that’s been [00:12:15] fascinating to me is it took us seven years to write the Wealthy Well-Known book. [00:12:20] Great book. Like to make it a New York Times bestseller.
Jason: Mm-hmm. [00:12:25]
Rory: It took us a few months to work with you to create the trends in personal branding, [00:12:30] national research study.
Jason: Mm-hmm.
Rory: The thought leadership that came from that was [00:12:35] equal to, if not far, greater than having a New York Times bestselling book.
Jason: Mm-hmm. Because. [00:12:40]
Rory: It was fast, it was relevant, like timely. Mm-hmm. And it was [00:12:45] practical. Mm-hmm. Right. And even this is our experience and our frameworks and things, but the numbers are, it’s like the, [00:12:50] it’s like the numbers never lie kind of a thing.
Jason: Mm-hmm.
Rory: So this is something that I [00:12:55] think there’s not enough personal brands thinking about.
Jason: Mm-hmm.
Rory: And going, especially in a world of [00:13:00] artificial. This is a way to stand out big time.
Jason: Yeah. And, and you know, I speak at a [00:13:05] lot of events now for personal brands, which I never did before. I’m having a blast doing it.
And my, [00:13:10] my mission or my calling, and I’m very direct, uh, which is if you don’t have [00:13:15] original research, you are just sharing opinions. And [00:13:20] if you look around these rooms, there’s a ton of people filled with opinions and even great stories. But [00:13:25] if you want people to invest and invest significant money. In you [00:13:30] or in your business or in, in, you know, what you’re trying to offer to them.
The problem you’re trying to solve, like you [00:13:35] need data to back it up. Mm. And people get hung up a lot of times. Like, oh, well Jason, I’m not a [00:13:40] researcher. I’m like, Hey, I got a lot of researchers. I got that part covered. What we need is people [00:13:45] that have a vision of a space they want to own questions that they feel are not [00:13:50] solved, that if we’re solved would, would really drive change.
And they have. And [00:13:55] this is something that, you know, we turn out a lot of people that, that come to us now because I’m like, look, if you don’t really know [00:14:00] your space, doing a study is not gonna change anything for you. If anything, you’re [00:14:05] gonna have an amazing study, but you’re still not gonna have the depth.
But if you’ve been doing this for [00:14:10] several years or many years, and you really have a, a point of view in a position [00:14:15] like a study is, is game changing for you? And you know, for us, like most of the studies we do now are [00:14:20] 60 days or 90 days.
Rory: And as an entrepreneur, you know, approach. You [00:14:25] know, this is a problem we can solve by writing you a check.
Like, I can’t, I can’t solve, I can’t [00:14:30] get someone to write a book for me by writing a check. Like I have to put the sweat equity into the whole, whole thing. [00:14:35] But like, we pretty much just write you a check, have a few conversations, you guys go do all the [00:14:40] work here of like the grunt work of making sure it’s statistically valid, fielding the samples, you know, and then [00:14:45] even analyzing the data and giving back to us like what you found.
Um, by the way, if, if [00:14:50] anyone is listening, if you go to free brand [00:14:55] training.com/research, so free brand training.com/research, [00:15:00] we will connect you directly to Jason and his team if you wanna explore and kind of [00:15:05] think about, okay, does, could a study fit for you? Um, and you do different types of studies that, you know, kind of [00:15:10] meet different budgets and, and different scopes and magnitudes and, and things like that.
Um,
Jason: yeah, [00:15:15] our typical client, the way we think about it today is. They, they’re gonna invest [00:15:20] in this study, the whole study beginning to end about four hours over the [00:15:25] project. And the most important thing is they need a vision, right? What is the space you wanna own? [00:15:30] I would say most people have it, some don’t.
And when they don’t, we’re like, Hey, go figure out these questions. Like [00:15:35] take some time, talk to your advisors, your friends, your family. Mm-hmm. Once you know those come back, we’ll do all the work back. Yeah. And then come [00:15:40] back. But a lot of times people come to us say, Hey, I got a book idea. Can you do a study to inform the book?
[00:15:45] Absolutely. We do that all the time, or I’ve written the book.
Rory: You’re doing that right now for one of our mission driven press [00:15:50] authors, Eric Thomas, et the hip hop preacher, which is interesting because.
Jason: He’s fantastic.
Rory: He’s [00:15:55] fantastic. I
Jason: mean,
Rory: so inspiring. One of the best speakers in the history of the world.
Jason: Yeah.
Rory: One of the biggest social media [00:16:00] followings. AJ and I grew up watching his videos, but like also classically known as a [00:16:05] motivational speaker, even though he’s a PhD.
Jason: Mm-hmm.
Rory: But now this is the first time [00:16:10] ever. Mm-hmm. Where he is. Releasing original [00:16:15] research.
Jason: Mm-hmm.
Rory: Right. Which will be true thought leadership, not just insights and inspiration, which [00:16:20] he’s always done.
Mm-hmm. Very, very well. Yeah. But now even at his level going, yeah, I want, [00:16:25] I want to have that academic substantiation, I want to have that objectivity, I want [00:16:30] that data driven, um, backing to what I’m saying. And that’s, that’s another, another [00:16:35] powerful part of this for personal brands watching is that. [00:16:40] You feel much more like a professional when you’ve done a study.
Mm-hmm. There’s an element just like [00:16:45] when you publish your first book. Yeah. Or just like, you know, you first launched your first website, you’re like, oh, you know, it [00:16:50] starts with a business card. It’s like, oh, I’m official. I have a business card. Oh, now I have a website. And then it’s like, oh, I have a book.
Oh, I have a [00:16:55] bestselling book. This is one of those things where you go like, whoa, even though you [00:17:00] guys did the work, it’s like, this is my research. Yeah. It’s my space, it’s my [00:17:05] questions, it’s my vision. And now I am truly like [00:17:10] the preeminent thought leader. And when AJ and I did the trends in personal branding, national research study, we [00:17:15] included in the book.
Jason: Mm-hmm.
Rory: Uh.
Jason: Well, and y’all got on Good Morning America right away. That’s
Rory: right. Yeah. It was
Jason: [00:17:20] incredible
Rory: At first, the day after we released our research study. Mm-hmm. I mean, we got on Good Morning America. This [00:17:25] is no lie. We put it out there for free and they literally were like, Hey, we [00:17:30] saw your study, can you come on tomorrow?
Um, now we didn’t know it was Good Morning America. It was actually like [00:17:35] some other affiliate and then the interview went so well. Good Morning America picked it up and aired [00:17:40] it. We didn’t even know. And it was just like. Wait, what? Like how many years of doing [00:17:45] 10,000 other things would we try to do and not ever get that?
Jason: Yeah. And people are always like, uh, you know, [00:17:50] ’cause I’ve been on the Today Show, I don’t know how many times, right? All these 60 minutes, 20, like all of these TV [00:17:55] shows, tons of ’em. We were in the cover store in the New York Times and people like, how do you do that? I’m like, look, if, if you [00:18:00] bring journalist data.
They are ecstatic. Like it makes [00:18:05] their job so easy. It’s something they can cite and then they want your perspective. And I think that’s [00:18:10] really, that’s the part that’s hard for people sometimes to conceptually understand. I, I just did a media interview, I guess [00:18:15] maybe two days ago now, and I was on this journalist, really well known journalist and she said, Jason, I’m so [00:18:20] happy to talk with you because you are bringing data and actual research and every other person that we’ve [00:18:25] interviewed just had opinions and it is such a difference.
And I saw the story ’cause it just came out and [00:18:30] I included. All through the story. Hmm. And, and I, and I just think like if, when [00:18:35] people realize how straightforward it is to get this done and like, Hey, you have your own study, you own all the [00:18:40] data, we own nothing. Yeah, we do the work, but it’s your vision.
You’re approving everything and [00:18:45] then you determine of all the data and insights that you found. ’cause it’s packed with discoveries. You get [00:18:50] to share them with the world, not us. This is all you. We are just here as a resource and a [00:18:55] partner and we will take the mystery away. Like we’ll do all the hard work, but, but you have to know enough about your [00:19:00] space where when we give it to you, you can just run with it and let the world know, because that’s our mission, right?
Yeah. Our, our, our mission [00:19:05] is, is to elevate thought leaders through research. And, and if we do that, [00:19:10] uh, it. It. Like that’s my legacy, right? That’s the thing I get fired up about. That’s why I [00:19:15] speak at all these events and I’m like, look, if nothing else in this room changed except y’all went out and all did studies [00:19:20] and were able to then elevate the expertise of the world because of that, like, cool, I’m done.
Like [00:19:25] that is the greatest thing ever because all the millions and millions and millions of people that are gonna be helped that way, [00:19:30] sometimes people come to us to, which is interesting, and they’ll say, well, you know, um, what if we find things we don’t like? [00:19:35] I’m like, you will find things you don’t like.
That’s research. But [00:19:40] you share what you’re gonna share, right? And, and oftentimes,
Rory: but also you should wanna know, like [00:19:45] you, you should want to know, like if, if you’re truly trying to help people and you’re truly trying to be a thought [00:19:50] leader, you should want to know if something you’re saying is wrong.
Like if you have a point of view that [00:19:55] is inaccurate or incorrect and you’re out there advancing it, it’s like you wanna know that [00:20:00] and it becomes a fascinating thing to talk about. Your own misconception about, [00:20:05] like, I had this misconception coming into the research study. Mm-hmm. Um, like I couldn’t believe in our [00:20:10] study as an example.
I never thought doctors would. Be an [00:20:15] important market for us, that, that people cared, that their, that, that, you know, we asked this [00:20:20] question about which profession does it matter? Mm-hmm. Uh, to a consumer that they have a personal brand. [00:20:25] Doctors was the number one profession. Mm-hmm. 61% of Americans said they want their [00:20:30] doctor to have an established personal brand.
Doctors weren’t even on our radar as [00:20:35] prospects for what we do at Brand Builders Group. And now we work with Dr. Josh Ax and we work with Dr. Gabrielle [00:20:40] Lyon, and we work with all of these really incredible, you know, chiropractors and, and, and, and [00:20:45] wellness people because it’s like, oh, in the health space, it matters to be able to like build a [00:20:50] personal brand that you can trust.
Jason: Mm-hmm.
Rory: So those, you wanna know when you’re wrong. [00:20:55] If you, you should want to know.
Jason: Yeah. And, and you know, the way I like to think about it is like, [00:21:00] it’s, it’s new information that can inform whatever it is you’re sharing. And sometimes you find that, that, Hey, I’ve been [00:21:05] saying something and it doesn’t land anymore in the way people think, right?
Like Wolf will go out and, I mean, I’ll, I’ll [00:21:10] give you example. We were just doing studies on employee benefits, uh, for one of our corporate clients. And [00:21:15] free mental health services was at the top. And the company goes, we don’t offer that at [00:21:20] all. I’m like, well that’s not a mistake. It’s an opportunity. ’cause clearly this is the number [00:21:25] one thing that this whole group wants, that if you offer it shows it’s gonna [00:21:30] drive recruiting and retention and long-term commitment.
Or on the flip side, we just did. ’cause you know, I [00:21:35] speak on generations. Uh, we just did a study and what Gen Z most wants more than anything else [00:21:40] is stability. Stability is one of the things that we can actually offer for [00:21:45] many in Gen Z. We just don’t emphasize it. And then we look at, well, what actually messages stability [00:21:50] for them to, right.
It think
Rory: they want ping pong tables and like
Jason: Yeah. Scheduling, flexibility and all this other stuff. Yeah. [00:21:55] Yeah. And it’s, but it makes sense. You go through years of instability, of course you want stability on the other side. [00:22:00] And every time that I can present that with our research and the leaders, [00:22:05] whether they’re in person or at some, you know, big virtual event, they’re like.
Rory: Wow,
Jason: I never thought about that. That [00:22:10] makes so much sense. Like as soon as you do, the more you do that, the more they’re ready to hear [00:22:15] everything else. Right. And, and, and I think that’s the key point. Great research advances a [00:22:20] conversation. Mm. And I tell people like, just advance the conversation and [00:22:25] it doesn’t even have to matter.
Like, are you right or wrong or this or that? It’s like you’re just trying to advance the [00:22:30] conversation. And that’s the part that drives so much media for us because. I don’t have an [00:22:35] agenda. I’m just like, Hey, this is what we found. We were shocked, we were surprised. We were [00:22:40] thrilled. We were all these things.
I, I just did an interview. I was like, we did not wanna discover this [00:22:45] at all.
Rory: Mm.
Jason: This is super concerning, but it’s [00:22:50] real and it’s the truth and we need to be talking about this.
Rory: Yeah.
Jason: And it changed all the energy.
Rory: [00:22:55] So again. As a business owner, part of what’s amazing is just like this is a problem [00:23:00] we can solve by writing a check and partnering with you.
If you’re, if you’re curious about that, go to free brand [00:23:05] training.com/research. We’ll connect you to Jason and their team. Um, [00:23:10] I wanna talk about what to do with the study once you have it. Right? So you invest this money. Mm-hmm. [00:23:15] Your team goes out, does your thing. We collaborate together. We come up with this amazing, brilliant, like, [00:23:20] these are the insights.
Jason: Mm-hmm.
Rory: Um. This, sitting in a room on a table [00:23:25] is not gonna do anything. Mm-hmm. So what do you do with your, [00:23:30] your most successful clients? What do they do with this to, to turn it into driving [00:23:35] business?
Jason: Yeah. Our, our belief is you should be able to make at least a 10 x [00:23:40] return on your money. But that 10 x return is not gonna come from doing the great study.
We’re gonna crush it. [00:23:45] Like we, we crush our studies. People love it. Like we know they’re gonna be amazing. [00:23:50] All of the return is gonna be putting the studies discoveries into action.
Rory: Hmm.
Jason: And [00:23:55] so what does that mean? We, we have something called our finding findings activation framework, but it’s how do you take [00:24:00] the data and discoveries and message ’em to the world?
In such a way that it drives your key business [00:24:05] outcomes. As you can probably guess, I’m into data and we should be able to measure everything. We should [00:24:10] be able to measure all the results from the study. And I don’t mean putting the insights into action. That’s absolutely true. If [00:24:15] it’s an internal study, meaning a company is leading the study to drive a a, a business strategy, but from an [00:24:20] external revenue generation standpoint, which is how personal brands should think about it.
Mm-hmm. This should be able [00:24:25] to drive leads. It should make, uh, should get you paid a lot more Money should drive media, should drive [00:24:30] longer term relationships and should help you to, um, offer to be able to solve bigger and different [00:24:35] challenges. So the way we do that is we’re like, okay, great. You get this beautiful data set, you get your [00:24:40] PowerPoint and let’s pretend that your findings deck is, um, 60 slides, right.
I’ve already pulled out all [00:24:45] the stories. Here’s all the great stories. Here’s the charts, here’s all the headlines, here’s [00:24:50] everything. Served it up to you. What do you do? So the first thing we tell them to do is you’re gonna go through there and you’re [00:24:55] gonna find the 10 or 20 that just give you tingles.
They get you fired up, you’re gonna [00:25:00] go circle ’em, right all over. Star, do whatever. But you need to start to figure out what are the stories you want to tell? ’cause [00:25:05] there’s not just one story in a study. There’s 10, 20, 30 study, uh, stories and you wanna be able [00:25:10] to tell them sometimes together, and a lot of times individually ’cause different stories resonate with different audiences.[00:25:15]
So we’re gonna go from that and say, okay, what is the best way to reach those that you want [00:25:20] to reach? So I speak to corporate executives and leaders and so forth. So for me, they [00:25:25] want white paper and they want that because it shows sort of depth around the discoveries. So [00:25:30] that means we find those 10 or 20 insights and we go in and we have a framework which is basically like, what did you [00:25:35] find?
What does it mean? Why is it urgent or important? What do I do with it? So then we fill that [00:25:40] out and that’s how we begin to develop these white papers. But for other clients of ours, like entrepreneurs [00:25:45] and some these personal, they are not interested in white papers. They’re like, what am I gonna do with white paper?
Mm-hmm. They instead want a video [00:25:50] series where we’re gonna take each insight and turn it into evergreen videos so they can go and share for a year, two [00:25:55] years. Maybe we turn into a course where all of a sudden now you have a research ba, a research backed course, [00:26:00] you know, for so many of our clients use it for books.
Some are for books they wanna do in the future, some are for books they’re [00:26:05] working on now. My favorite, we have people that release their study to go promote books they’ve already done.
Rory: Mm [00:26:10]
Jason: Right. They’ll just add bonus material or say they’ve updated it or they’ll just release the study [00:26:15] and then use that to get media again, to be able to then talk about the book.
Studies give you permission to [00:26:20] talk with people. Gives permission for people to wanna listen to you ’cause you have something they can’t get anywhere else. We [00:26:25] also, like, we use it a lot to, um, for all kinds of demand gen. So while people turn into [00:26:30] infographics, while people turn into short form videos, animated videos, um, people turn it [00:26:35] into, uh, op-eds.
Like I was, uh, I was on one of the big media outlets for an oped I wrote, [00:26:40] um, which was amazing on, on marketplace. So like a lot of these things are just. [00:26:45] You should have at least a year, if not two years of content in a single [00:26:50] study. People always ask me, well, do I have to do another study? Or I’m like, I’m like, you can, but it’s better to max out [00:26:55] the value from this.
And so we show you. Here’s how you use it in your speeches. Like for me, I. I [00:27:00] know like you do, we use our study in our speech. It’s also the lead gen. So for us, all the people in the [00:27:05] audience, whether it’s a thousand or 5,000 or 50, what do they do? They take out their phone, they scan the QR codes, [00:27:10] and then they can get the study.
But what’s really wild, it’s, and I never ever thought this would happen. [00:27:15] You would not believe how many people want the hard copy versions of it. Hmm. So the hard copy version [00:27:20] you have, like, we have so many clients and they will pay to get the versions so that everybody, in [00:27:25] fact a lot of ’em want it instead of the books or they’ll take it in addition to the books ’cause it feels very current and of the moment [00:27:30] and we could keep updating it.
So we see that, um, we use it in our consulting process. So for [00:27:35] anybody who’s doing professional services, you can then say, Hey, I have a research backed process, which is [00:27:40] huge in all of that. Same for communities. I mean, the whole idea is. What are [00:27:45] the problems you’re trying to solve with the study? How can you turn that into the right thing to [00:27:50] educate and inform that audience?
And it looks different for everybody. We do live webinars, we do prerecorded. [00:27:55] Our clients use this in so many different ways. I know my favorites is creating indexes [00:28:00] or creating now, then create their own quizzes. You know, that’s top lead gen for so many people right [00:28:05] now. And now you have one that’s research backed and once people get the vision and go, oh, I got it.
[00:28:10] So I could take what I already do, you’ll come in and make this research backed, and then I could turn into all these [00:28:15] marketing tools and PR tools and communication tools. I just get to level up every single thing [00:28:20] I do.
Rory: Talk about research backed real, real quick, and then we’ll, we’ll land the plane ’cause this.
This has [00:28:25] been amazing, but I think. So you’ve really made a strong case [00:28:30] for the, the power of research, the reasons to do it, both for just getting [00:28:35] actual answers and insights, also for branding and positioning. Uh, and then also, [00:28:40] you know, for perception and like price increases. Why can’t I just do this myself with [00:28:45] SurveyMonkey?
Like, why do I need, why do I need you? Why, why, what, [00:28:50] what makes something count as like real research versus like, why can’t I just email my [00:28:55] email list? Mm-hmm. And come up with some questions and, and ask them, can you talk about the [00:29:00] difference between, you know, a true academic methodology [00:29:05] and statistically valid sample sizes versus just like.
People do this, right? They’ll put [00:29:10] something on their Instagram stories, they’ll ask a question, and then they’ll present it as like, [00:29:15] research. Why is that? Why does that not count as, as real [00:29:20] research?
Jason: Yeah, that’s a great question. The, um, we actually, in our, um, proposals, [00:29:25] the, we have a whole page just on why you could do that and why it won’t actually deliver all the things that [00:29:30] you want.
But basically. When you think about the difference between a [00:29:35] study and a survey, just in a traditional sentence, if I’m gonna survey my list, you’re not [00:29:40] getting anything representative except of your list, and except of the people who decided they like you [00:29:45] enough or you offered some free thing for them to complete it, it doesn’t actually represent.
Anything [00:29:50] other than the people on your list who had nothing better to do at that moment? Same with Facebook. It’s whoever you [00:29:55] reached or any of these. So in our model, uh, generally our studies are a thousand people [00:30:00] and it’s always weighted to something. So usually, for example, it’s weighted to the US census for age, gender, [00:30:05] geography, and ethnicity.
Um, and we have a thousand people. ’cause that gives us a margin there. Plus or minus [00:30:10] 3.1, uh, 19.
Rory: What very a margin. Yeah.
Jason: [00:30:15] 19 out 20 times, uh, 20 times, which is sort of the, what they call the 95th confidence interval. [00:30:20] All of that to say, uh,
Rory: meaning that when you ask a thousand people at that level, [00:30:25] it’s like that’s going to be a statistically valid representative sample of the entire [00:30:30] nation.
Jason: Mm-hmm.
Rory: And that’s what makes it valid. It’s, it’s not just a thousand people took it, it’s [00:30:35] that the demographics of the thousand people who took it. Represent the [00:30:40] demographics, weighted and equivalent sort of to the nation, the national demographics.
Jason: Yeah, [00:30:45] so we’re gonna match the US census, and so we’re gonna have all the different states represented and [00:30:50] genders and, and anything else.
So like age, gender, geography, and ethnicity. That gives us a really low [00:30:55] margin error. This is very important because we always publish methodologies, so [00:31:00] that’s why all these media outlets wanna use it because they know, oh, this is [00:31:05] statistically accurate. Otherwise, you’re just doing a survey. If you wanna own a space, [00:31:10] you have to be statistically accurate.
You want a very low margin of error because that [00:31:15] means it’s real and valid. And once you do that, then people will cite you. The media will cite you. [00:31:20] Academics will cite you. Business leaders will cite you. Boards of directors, investor groups. [00:31:25] All of these places will cite you because you have a statistically accurate national study.
[00:31:30] That’s what I always tell people. You have to name your study and give it a credible name, not some cheeky name, because [00:31:35] you wanna be the source of truth. So own that space. Be the source of truth. ’cause your [00:31:40] data, your study is valid. It’s, it’s statistically rigorous [00:31:45] and that’s why so many big companies use us.
That’s why all kinds of different groups partner with us, so many personal [00:31:50] brands is because. If you’re going to invest the time to do it, you want to do it right. So I think [00:31:55] for us, the big, at least what I hear from our clients, ’cause you know most of them are repeat or direct referrals. What I hear from [00:32:00] our clients is we do study design differently than anybody else because we do study design specifically [00:32:05] for thought leadership.
Mm-hmm. That is what we do. Then we manage the process. So the thousand or 2000, [00:32:10] however many participants go through it and they’ll meet whatever the criteria are. Maybe they’re all people that have over a [00:32:15] million dollars. Maybe they all are business owners, maybe they’re all moms. Like we, you know, we do all [00:32:20] kinds of studies and then the analysis where we pull out the stories for them.
[00:32:25] That’s like magic and they get so excited and the response at the app,
Rory: right? Or even if I’m not like a numbers [00:32:30] person, I don’t really understand. Yeah, no, no. You’re, you’re doing that extrapolation for me.
Jason: We do the whole thing
Rory: and then I just [00:32:35] can go be the storyteller.
Jason: You can present your study the same day.
We teach you how to present it. We give you [00:32:40] our framework. We record presenting it as if we’re you. We give you everything you need so that you can take whatever your [00:32:45] strengths are and your passion. And immediately integrate the, the study and the discoveries so that you can [00:32:50] start telling the world. And you know, for us, we always believe you should create a research hub, which is something on your [00:32:55] website that everybody’s wanting goes back to, that’ll have your key findings and your perspective on it.
And you know, white [00:33:00] papers, infographics, videos, those sorts of things. So you have this sort of center of truth that’s now a part [00:33:05] of what you do. And I, I just, again, if you own the data, you own the space. If you’re [00:33:10] constantly citing other people to make your point, you’re missing an opportunity to really step up to that next level.[00:33:15]
Or as you said earlier, you know, one step below a celebrity.
Rory: [00:33:20] Uh, well, there you have it again, free brand training.com/research if you’re interested in this. And [00:33:25] share this episode with someone you know, who is a personal brand or an entrepreneur who [00:33:30] is ready to go to that next level to like true authority, right?
This is, this is, you know, this [00:33:35] idea of statistically valid, academically accurate and sound. Uh, this is [00:33:40] a, a level of legitimizing your expertise and your own confidence in what you’re teaching. [00:33:45] And that’s what this is really about. So. Make sure you, if you know someone like that who should be [00:33:50] doing this at that level and owning a conversation, share this episode with them.
Uh, make sure you hit [00:33:55] subscribe, tell us your thoughts down below, and we’ll catch you next time on the Wealthy and Well-Known [00:34:00] [00:34:05] [00:34:10] podcast.
WWK Ep 020: How to Create an Audiobook That Moves People with Tavia Gilbert
Rory: [00:00:00] That’s very frustrating and annoying. Mm-hmm. As an author, but, and then also with my colleagues, I’m going, [00:00:05] we can’t give away our own book. This thing costs nothing to produce, like [00:00:10] literally nothing to distribute, and yet somehow the money’s not coming back to us as creatives and that. [00:00:15] That bothers me.
Yeah. And it’s not about money, it’s, it’s so much, it’s just like, it just doesn’t, [00:00:20] it feels like injustice.
Tavia: Right, right. I’m with you and if I can ever help you solve that problem, I [00:00:25] want justice for the people whose hearts and minds justice for the people. Yes. Yes. I love the [00:00:30] direction this interview has taken.[00:00:35] [00:00:40] [00:00:45]
Rory: How do you make money with audio books and what [00:00:50] makes a great audio book? What are the mistakes that most audio book [00:00:55] authors make, and how does the whole industry of audio books work? How has it been created [00:01:00] and how is it changing in the future? Those are some of the issues and questions that [00:01:05] we’re gonna address.
On today’s episode, and it’s not often that we [00:01:10] bring in outside vendors, but in the case that we meet someone who is a real [00:01:15] expert, and especially when it’s someone that we have hired personally and benefited [00:01:20] from, we want to introduce you. To them. And today that is the case with our [00:01:25] good friend Tavia Gilbert.
She is one of the most world renowned experts on [00:01:30] audiobook. So let me read a couple things from her formal bio. So first of all, she is a Grammy [00:01:35] nominated award-winning voice actor, producer, and creative director. She [00:01:40] was the creative director for. Mine in AJ’s, wealthy and well-known audiobook, uh, [00:01:45] which, uh, is phenomenal.
I might say if, if I can. Um, she is known [00:01:50] for her, uh, her transformative storytelling in both audio and [00:01:55] podcasting. She has nominated for many audio awards. Um, she has, uh, [00:02:00] she won. This, I wanna say it correctly. Audiobook Narrator of the [00:02:05] Year by Booklist Magazine. She’s produced and been a part of over 1000 [00:02:10] audiobooks for major publishers.
Penguin Random House, Blackstone Ette, Simon and [00:02:15] Schuster McMillan. Also hybrid books. Um, she is the person that we [00:02:20] predominantly work with for audio books, uh, with Mission-Driven Press, which of course is our sister company, where we [00:02:25] distribute our books through Simon and Schuster, but we also own the audio rights, and so [00:02:30] we work with Tabia on that.
So she is a pro, she knows what she’s talking about, and [00:02:35] this is a big, important issue, especially with the freedom that it gives authors in the [00:02:40] future. Tavia, welcome to the show,
Tavia: Rory. Thank you so much for having me. [00:02:45] I’m so honored to be here.
Rory: We really lean into people who are experts and obviously it’s a big part of what we [00:02:50] teach.
And man, this is, this is your universe.
Tavia: It is.
Rory: Um, I [00:02:55] wanna actually start with the business of audio books if we can. Um, I, I, I want to get to the [00:03:00] art as well, which I know is like a big part of also your bread and butter.
Tavia: Yeah.
Rory: But I think that [00:03:05] a lot of authors. I have no clue how audio books really work.
Tavia: Yeah. [00:03:10]
Rory: Like, they just go, don’t, I? Like, I, I know I recorded, I went to a [00:03:15] studio and recorded my book, but then, you know, nothing happens. It’s like this giant black box. Do I make any [00:03:20] money? How do I make money? What’s the difference between a self-published audio book and traditionally? So can [00:03:25] you just like, give us a little bit of an understanding of like, what’s [00:03:30] the economics of an audio book in, in both traditional publishing and [00:03:35] self-publishing and like.
How does it work? I mean, obviously you gotta record a [00:03:40] file and, and we’ll talk about that Yeah. Later, but I wanna just dive into the, the, the [00:03:45] money of how do you make money from audio books and who makes money with audio [00:03:50] books?
Tavia: Well, hopefully, hopefully the author will make some money from their audio books.[00:03:55]
That’s a, a pretty broad question, so if I get kind of away from it, bring me back because there are a [00:04:00] lot of components to the answer.
Rory: Yeah.
Tavia: First, the audiobook [00:04:05] industry has been growing, growing, growing. It’s a multi-billion dollar industry, and it [00:04:10] is the, it is a major part of publishing. So when I first started almost [00:04:15] 20 years ago, people saw audiobooks as kind of like a redheaded stepsister.
[00:04:20] It was like off to the side and people were. Very afraid that audio books [00:04:25] would poach print sales. Mm. So there was some kind of discomfort [00:04:30] in some areas of publishing about audio books. Mm. And over the last few [00:04:35] decades, audio books have been such an integral part of publishing and [00:04:40] marketing the book, getting the book out to audiences that it has really [00:04:45] shifted and audio is now one of the most important parts of your publishing [00:04:50] plan.
Rory: Hmm.
Tavia: If you’re. Publishing traditionally. [00:04:55] Often your audio book writes will be bundled with your print rights, right?
Rory: So
Tavia: [00:05:00] say you are publishing through a traditional publisher, they’re going to publish your print [00:05:05] book and produce your audio book. So that
Rory: is, and then that’s like, that’s what happened to me.
I [00:05:10] had a literary agent, we got a book deal, and I really didn’t even think much about it. Mm-hmm. It’s just [00:05:15] kind of like, yeah, it’s all bundled together. It wasn’t like really a separate [00:05:20] negotiation. Right. And I was just like, oh, the, and then. I was like, later on I was like, [00:05:25] I wish I would’ve known a little bit more.
Like I, I wish I would’ve understood this [00:05:30] piece of it better.
Tavia: Yeah. Now people understand more the [00:05:35] value of their audio rights, and I think part of the value is because it’s your voice. It’s bringing [00:05:40] to life your book off the page. So there’s a real resonance and frequency in that [00:05:45] audio product of the message.
Yes, it’s very powerful.
Rory: I mean, when [00:05:50] AJ reads her chapters of our book, it makes me cry made like I’ve me cry. I the story literally, I’ve heard the [00:05:55] story hundreds of times when I hear her tell it in our audio book chapter three, like [00:06:00] I break down crying. It’s such a powerful. [00:06:05] Medium and, and to to hear it in, in her own voice.
But anyways, yeah. So, so
Tavia: well, and your chapters [00:06:10] made me cry. Like the passion and the, the ambition and the hustle and the commitment. So it’s, [00:06:15] it has that power. Not that people don’t cry in books. They do, of course we cry when we read [00:06:20] books, but that there’s something about somebody telling their story that is just, it’s [00:06:25] amazing, transformative listening.
If you don’t have a [00:06:30] traditional publisher, if you are uh, publishing in a hybrid situation, [00:06:35] often the best case scenario for you as an author is for an [00:06:40] audio publisher to purchase your audiobook rights. Okay, so there are. [00:06:45] It’s, it’s consolidating, like all of the c corporate, corporate life is [00:06:50] consolidating into fewer and fewer companies, but there are still companies that [00:06:55] acquire only audiobook rights.
Rory: So it’s just like a book publisher. Mm-hmm. But they [00:07:00] specialize in, we buy audio books.
Tavia: Right?
Rory: And so if you self-publish or [00:07:05] you hybrid publish. As an author, you own those rights, right? You don’t sell them to a traditional [00:07:10] publisher, so then you then could turn around and sell them to, are they just called audio [00:07:15] publishers?
Tavia: Yes.
Rory: Is that what they are? Mm-hmm. Yeah. But they’re, are they also distributors? Yes. Or is [00:07:20] that a different thing?
Tavia: Yes. So if you were hybrid publishing and an [00:07:25] audio publisher purchased your audiobook rights, they would pay for the production [00:07:30] expenses and they would distribute that audiobook.
Rory: Okay, so that’s a positive thing.
Yeah. ’cause there’s [00:07:35] production, ex expenses. Yeah. And that’s that. So they, they’re gonna pay those [00:07:40] expenses. Now, are they usually paying in advance?
Tavia: Um, it [00:07:45] depends. Every contract is
Rory: different.
Tavia: Different, you know, so some people are [00:07:50] going to have a small advance. Some people may have their production expenses [00:07:55] covered.
Um. And get less of an advance or, you know, every deal is [00:08:00] sure details.
Rory: It depends on the author and the platform and all that kind of of stuff the same. But, but you could, [00:08:05] you, you at least, you’re not gonna be coming out of pocket to produce the audio. Right. Which is like if you [00:08:10] hybrid publish or you self-publish you, you do that.
Now, when that, and that’s part of why we met you is with [00:08:15] Mission-Driven Press. We got into the details of this and we’re like, this is, there’s a lot here.
Tavia: Yeah. [00:08:20]
Rory: It’s better for authors to just. You know, they can just pay us and then we go, we [00:08:25] take care of this for you. Right? They still own the rights of it, but like we solve the problem of the [00:08:30] production.
’cause the production is. A little bit easier. I feel like these days, I mean it’s, it’s more [00:08:35] common that people have microphones and like studios and you know, even though when [00:08:40] you do it, you’re doing like a real sound studio.
Tavia: Yeah. And I think one of the dangers, [00:08:45] and I don’t know if you want to move away from the economics yet, into the production, they’re, [00:08:50] they’re linked, you know, it’s a related conversation, but.
There’s a I I find that [00:08:55] often people have a DIY sort of mindset about their audio and I [00:09:00] think that’s a real risk and a real problem.
Rory: Let’s save that for later. Yeah. So yeah, [00:09:05] stick around. ’cause I definitely want to get into that. Yeah. So help, let’s go back to the landscape of the [00:09:10] space. Mm-hmm. That the industry, so I can.
I can sell my rights to [00:09:15] an audiobook publisher. This would be like Blackstone, right? Mm-hmm. Is what you’re talking about the one?
Tavia: Yeah. Blackstone Tan Tour, [00:09:20] something like that. That
Rory: What’s the, what’d the other one?
Tavia: Tan Tour.
Rory: Okay. I didn’t even heard. I’m not even familiar with [00:09:25] that.
Tavia: Yeah. But a Blackstone or Recorded books is a big publisher related to Tanto, so there [00:09:30] are audio publishers where you can sell your rights.
And they, then again, they’re producing it. [00:09:35]
Rory: Do you need a literary agent to do that or Usually authors are just kind of like going direct ’cause there’s not a lot of money [00:09:40] here. Right. And, and there’s, it’s, it’s rare that you get a big advance for audio. Right,
Tavia: right, right.
Rory: So [00:09:45] an agent, literary agents probably are not as much drawn to this space,
Tavia: but I think that you, [00:09:50] you probably are going to have more success with an agent [00:09:55] backing you when you’re trying to sell your rights.
Mm-hmm. But as an independent author, you can certainly approach [00:10:00] companies. Hope that they will acquire your rights. Audible may [00:10:05] acquire your rights. So, uh, a trade magazine that’s a [00:10:10] really. Uh, good, uh, tool and resources Audio File magazine. It’s the audio [00:10:15] book magazine. Okay. And if people get familiar with that magazine, it tells, [00:10:20] you know, there are articles and ads and reviews, and it’s the industry of [00:10:25] audio publishing.
So that’s how people can maybe discover who those companies are that are [00:10:30] acquiring rights. Who are the audio book publishers that are exclusively dealing with [00:10:35] audio, not with print. So. Definitely recommend people get familiar with
Rory: audio [00:10:40] file. So if I either, if I sell my rights either as part of a traditional deal [00:10:45] or I figure out a way to go direct, or I get an agent to just do my audio rights, if I’m hybrid [00:10:50] or self-published, then they’re gonna publish it.
They’re paying for the expenses and then they’re [00:10:55] gonna distribute it, meaning they’re gonna take the audio book and they’re gonna make it available in [00:11:00] Spotify and iTunes and Audible and places like that
Tavia: [00:11:05] probably. They would widely distribute. But one [00:11:10] uh, thing that’s important to understand is that audible.[00:11:15]
Is an ecosystem that stands alone. And if people, whether an [00:11:20] independent author, a hybrid publishing author, or a traditional publisher, if they want [00:11:25] to distribute for the highest royalty, they’re going to go exclusively to [00:11:30] Audible. They’re still the biggest deal in audio publishing. Spotify’s coming up, [00:11:35] you know, really trying to compete with them.
So if you want to publish widely [00:11:40] audible spotify audiobooks.com, downpour in the public [00:11:45] library market, you cannot. Get the royalty share that you [00:11:50] would if you went only to Audible.
Rory: And when, when you say only with Audible, you’re [00:11:55] talking about an Audible exclusive, which means that Audible is the only platform that people [00:12:00] could hear your audio book.
Tavia: Right?
Rory: Right. So you, it’s like that is an option. [00:12:05] That is like a self-contained option, and that’s what a lot of my private clients are doing. Mm-hmm. And [00:12:10] they’ve gotten some huge, huge deals.
Tavia: Yeah.
Rory: Right. Yeah. It’s like, you know, I think [00:12:15] audiobook, when I hear audiobook advance, I tend to think like $5,000 or 10,000 or 20, [00:12:20] some of them have gotten like huge advances.
Tavia: Right.
Rory: And, but, but then it’s like [00:12:25] audible. Owns that. Right. You cannot get it anywhere else.
Tavia: Right.
Rory: So that’s the best [00:12:30] money in town. Um, but then it’s not available in the public [00:12:35] library. Right? It’s not available on iTunes and Spotify. And that’s why Audible’s doing that. They’re, they’re kind of like,
Tavia: I think it’s [00:12:40] Audible iTunes, I think Audible and iTunes go hand in hand.
Okay. Or [00:12:45] there’s, um. I can put this in the show notes, we can talk about it so that I make sure [00:12:50] and it changes. So I just wanna make sure that I’m giving the most current up to date.
Rory: Okay.
Tavia: But, um, [00:12:55] yes, audible is going to be the, the highest royalty return.
Rory: And what kind of [00:13:00] royalties do you, do you get on an audio book?
Like, and, and, and walk us through like. [00:13:05] How do you even calculate a a a a royalty. So is this like, [00:13:10] like on a traditional published book? You know, we, I remember on like my [00:13:15] take the stairs book, you get, I wanna say we got between 10 to 15, a sliding thing between [00:13:20] 10 to 15% on hardcover. Mm-hmm. For the first whatever.
And then [00:13:25] on paperback, which the publisher immediately pushed it to paperback, it drops to [00:13:30] 8% on like the first 150,000 or, you know, something like that. Like, yeah. Um. [00:13:35] Are those the audio book royalty rates? Are they higher?
Tavia: So if you [00:13:40] are exclusively distributing to Audible, your royalty right now would be [00:13:45] 40% of sales.
Rory: Wow.
Tavia: Um, if you are [00:13:50] distributing to Audible in a non-exclusive arrangement so that you are also able to [00:13:55] distribute everywhere else, audio books can be discovered and purchased, [00:14:00] that royalty drops to 25%.
Rory: Okay.
Tavia: So
Rory: just talking [00:14:05] about Audible,
Tavia: right? If you, right now I work a lot with In Audio, [00:14:10] which is another distributor, I can distribute a book through in [00:14:15] audio and it will push it to Audible and everywhere else [00:14:20] if I distribute in, in audio.
I can [00:14:25] exclude Audible from that distribution platform. I recommend often that my [00:14:30] authors who want the widest possible distribution, that’s a higher priority than the [00:14:35] highest royalty share. I recommend that they distribute through [00:14:40] Audible in a non-exclusive arrangement.
Rory: So you’re talking 25% royalty,
Tavia: right?[00:14:45]
And then they distribute through in audio. [00:14:50] Excluding Audible from that distribution option,
Rory: so, so everywhere else [00:14:55] basically.
Tavia: Right? Right.
Rory: Yeah.
Tavia: So you’re getting kind of the best of both worlds
Rory: right now. Part of when people [00:15:00] hire you, you, you deal with all this, right? That you can, you can set, you can, you can, [00:15:05] part of your fee is just as like, you’re gonna deal with all this and you set it up and like you talk us through [00:15:10] how do we want to do this, right?
We agree on a thing, and then you deal with like submitting it and doing all of that [00:15:15] stuff,
Tavia: right? Because it can be a technical. Headache. It’s annoying. Yeah. To, you know, but I [00:15:20] also want to know with every client, what’s your priority? What’s your goal? Do you wanna get this out as [00:15:25] widely as possible? Are you trying to make the most money possible?
What’s important to you? Do you wanna [00:15:30] deal with the fewest platforms? You know, there’s not a cookie cutter one right [00:15:35] answer that fits everybody’s business plans, right? So it’s really important that people [00:15:40] don’t just make assumptions and think audible’s the only game in town. And they kind of [00:15:45] have to go in that direction.
Um, audible comes exclusive distribution, comes with a [00:15:50] seven year commitment, which can be shifted. Oh, midstream. If you really do want [00:15:55] to get out of that contract or
Rory: exclusive, it’s a seven year commitment.
Tavia: Right.
Rory: Okay.
Tavia: Right now they’re pretty [00:16:00] flexible. They’ll let you out of that commitment. That can always change.
So you wanna be [00:16:05] careful what commitment you’re making
Rory: and when you get a royalty in audio, like if it’s 40%. [00:16:10] Are you saying that you get 40%? Like if my book is $10, if [00:16:15] my audio book is $10 that every time Audible sells it, I’m gonna make [00:16:20] $4. ’cause that’s pretty good. But that doesn’t seem to be reflective of what we’re seeing on royalty [00:16:25] checks.
Tavia: It’s really hard to understand your royalty checks, honestly, [00:16:30] because Audible can make your book available for the, the [00:16:35] daily, you know, really cut rate. Everybody buy this for two bucks, you know, or
Rory: [00:16:40] whatever. Okay.
Tavia: And they shifted all, you have no control over pricing and audio is [00:16:45] distributed in, in so many different ways, so many different models.
There are over [00:16:50] 40 platforms that distribute audio books worldwide. Some are streaming, [00:16:55] some are credit models like Audible, some are number of hours. That’s the thing. How do
Rory: I get paid if, if, [00:17:00] if as a customer they’re paying 10 bucks a month or whatever the subscription is for [00:17:05] Audible and then. They get so many credits and they download my book and like maybe they [00:17:10] listen to five minutes.
Mm-hmm. Maybe they listen to five hours, like. [00:17:15] How does that work? Or does anybody know? ’cause like, I, I don’t feel like that’s very transparent or clear. It’s not. [00:17:20] Or at least not very simple to understand.
Tavia: Yeah, it’s not. And I, I partner with one [00:17:25] of the leading experts in audiobooks, Michelle Cobb, who’s been in the industry for over [00:17:30] two decades.
And I go to her, you know, every couple months I’m like, we’ve gotta figure this out for [00:17:35] people. How we can make it clear, how we can make it transparent. We [00:17:40] are partnering to give the best service, the most information, [00:17:45] but it is not possible for us to make up for the, the [00:17:50] deficit of so many different models, so many different ways.
Prices, it’s just, [00:17:55] it’s kind of opaque and that’s just the way the industry is. And [00:18:00] right now, that’s not gonna change anytime soon.
Rory: Yeah. So funny that you, you know, [00:18:05] as you say that this is why. We didn’t do an audio deal at [00:18:10] all,
Tavia: right.
Rory: We just we’re like, we’re gonna hold our own audio. ’cause, ’cause [00:18:15] as a mission-driven messenger, right?
So even at, even at my level, [00:18:20] uh, I’m not getting huge. Advances.
Tavia: Right.
Rory: And so [00:18:25] the way that we think of our book is less of like, oh, we’re gonna make money off our book. And more of [00:18:30] like, the book is the lead generation tool into our ecosystem, to which when people read our [00:18:35] book, they go, whoa, these people know what they’re doing.
They can, you know, help us with, with other stuff.
Tavia: [00:18:40] Yeah.
Rory: Um, and it’s always driven me so insane that I [00:18:45] cannot gift my own audiobook. Mm-hmm. Like even when I had a traditional [00:18:50] publishing deal. I could at least buy my hardcover book at [00:18:55] a discount. It was not a great discount. Right. It was like, you know, 35% off.
Like it’s, it’s [00:19:00] still paying a ton of money. But one of the reasons we did hybrid publishing on the print version was so [00:19:05] that we could get our books at wholesale costs, which has been a game changer. Mm-hmm. Like it cost me way [00:19:10] more to give. A paperback version of Take the Stairs then [00:19:15] to give out our beautiful hardcover embossed dust jacket version [00:19:20] of Wealthy and well known.
Tavia: Yeah.
Rory: So at least with a physical book I can give it out.
Tavia: Right.
Rory: But [00:19:25] with audio I’m like, this is crazy. It’s air like why Right. Can’t [00:19:30] IG this to people? And when you sell your rights, you give up [00:19:35] that. Right,
Tavia: right.
Rory: Um, because they own the right to the book. And so that’s why [00:19:40] this time around we’re like, there’s not enough money showing up on our royalty checks, right?
From our first two audio books, and I can [00:19:45] see how many units are being sold, kind of.
Tavia: Mm-hmm.
Rory: And I’m like, we’re selling, we’re selling [00:19:50] just as many units on audio as we are in physical. But [00:19:55] the, the royal, the royalty check is way less.
Tavia: Right?
Rory: And all we see is like a number. [00:20:00] So there’s like no transparency in the reporting, right?
But we can go sold this many [00:20:05] physical books. This many audio books. One was a check for this, the other check was significantly less and I [00:20:10] can’t give it away. And that was part of what also pushed us to hybrid is going, this is insane. We’re going [00:20:15] to use the audiobook. And sell it ourselves. Mm-hmm. And just do it.
[00:20:20] So are, are you seeing other authors do that or not really? Are people still hesitant to like, [00:20:25] say, I’m gonna like. Control the whole audio thing myself,
Tavia: I think more and more people [00:20:30] are picking up on the opportunity that audio gives them to connect, to be a [00:20:35] lead magnet or a lead generator. People are getting it and some [00:20:40] audio books are now being distributed before their print.
So [00:20:45] that’s kind of an interesting shift.
Rory: Mm-hmm. Yeah. We, we, we did that. Yeah. And to my knowledge, we [00:20:50] were one of the first that really pushed that. Yeah. But we gave away the audio book for free and [00:20:55] used that as a lead magnet to sell the physical copy.
Tavia: Right.
Rory: Which worked pretty well.
Tavia: I think, [00:21:00] you know, unfortunately publishing is a difficult business.[00:21:05]
A lot of authors know that they’re not going to make a lot of money on their [00:21:10] book.
Rory: Mm-hmm.
Tavia: And that for them. Who, the, those who decide to move forward to put [00:21:15] in the time and the, the blood, sweat and tears of writing a book and getting it out there, know [00:21:20] that it’s leading to something bigger than the book alone.
Rory: Mm.
Tavia: And so I think that [00:21:25] just, uh, savvy and strategic authors have a bigger [00:21:30] plan and they understand the rollout at a certain time, what they’re driving people [00:21:35] to, how it all works. I think that’s not gonna change anytime soon. [00:21:40] No. No. Corporation right now I see is going to be benevolent and say we [00:21:45] want people to be more empowered.
We want creatives to have more of their revenue. That’s just not the way. [00:21:50] The world works right now.
Rory: Yeah. Well to, so to that point, if you go to free brand [00:21:55] call.com/podcast, that’s exactly precisely what we specialize in is helping
Tavia: [00:22:00] Yeah.
Rory: Authors create monetization strategy beyond the book, outside of the book [00:22:05] and turning it into other, other revenue streams.
Um, you know, and there’s a part of [00:22:10] me, like, as you say this, and part of why I wanted to have this interview is there’s a part of me, you know, [00:22:15] you use the word benevolence. Mm. There’s a part of me that’s going. Could brand builders group ever get [00:22:20] to the level one day of scale that we could solve this problem because we’re [00:22:25] selling air and yet the authors don’t seem to be making any money.
Tavia: Mm-hmm.
Rory: Uh, and [00:22:30] to me that’s very frustrating and annoying as an author, but, and then also with my colleagues, I’m going, [00:22:35] we can’t give away our own book. This thing costs nothing to produce, [00:22:40] like literally nothing to distribute, and yet somehow the [00:22:45] money’s not coming back to us as creatives.
Tavia: Yeah.
Rory: And that.
That bothers me. Yeah. And it’s not about [00:22:50] money, it’s, it’s so much, it’s just like, it just doesn’t, it feels like injustice.
Tavia: Right, right. I’m with [00:22:55] you and if I can ever help you solve that problem, I want justice for the people whose hearts and minds [00:23:00] justice for the people. Yes. Yes. I love the direction this interview has taken.
So yeah, I [00:23:05] think it’s an important question. But for now, people should work with you to figure out [00:23:10] their strategy because the content of the book needs to get out into the world in all [00:23:15] formats. So it is an ongoing problem. You’re not the only person who has had that [00:23:20] frustration looking at royalty reports that are really difficult to understand.
But, [00:23:25] uh, I have seen people more and more put their book in their app. Distribute [00:23:30] it that way, whether it’s monetized or just, that’s
Rory: what we did.
Tavia: It’s just Right.
Rory: That’s what we did. We built our own app. We dropped the [00:23:35] book in there, and then when people download it, right, they get, they, they don’t, they not only get in our book, but [00:23:40] they get, um.
They get inside our app. Mm-hmm. All of our, our free [00:23:45] content, which if, uh, if you go to free brand audiobook.com/podcast, [00:23:50] free brand audiobook.com/podcast, you can get our audiobook for free. [00:23:55] And if nothing else, just see how we do this. Mm-hmm. Right. So you go to a page, you [00:24:00] put you, you fill it out. We send the audiobook and the mechanism by which we use to deliver [00:24:05] it is our own app.
And then that also gives us a way to stay in touch with people, which has been super. [00:24:10] Super powerful.
Tavia: Right?
Rory: Because that’s the other problem when, when you sell at retail, [00:24:15] which is also the, the same issue exists with physical books that when [00:24:20] someone goes and buys a copy of my book at Amazon, you know, okay.
I guess that’s good. I make. [00:24:25] Whatever, $2 or a dollar on the book. But the, the [00:24:30] more expensive problem is I never get the customer’s contact information. Right. Right. I don’t know who [00:24:35] they are. And it’s definitely that way with audio books. Right. They just sort of like disappear into [00:24:40] the ether. But when you own the rights, put it in your app.
Now all of a [00:24:45] sudden. I, I have a direct line of communication for them forever. And to us, I’m [00:24:50] going, that’s the more valuable piece. Of
Tavia: course. Yeah. If you had distributed your audio [00:24:55] book through Audible exclusively, you would not have the right to distribute it in your app. So [00:25:00] authors really need to understand that, what that relationship and that commitment means.[00:25:05]
It’s, it’s limiting. So audible still, again, is the juggernaut. It’s the biggest deal in [00:25:10] town still, but it’s, but that’s
Rory: why they’re paying more money is they’re. They want [00:25:15] control over it. But what you’re saying is I still could distribute our [00:25:20] audiobook ’cause we did not do exclusive. I could still have it on Audible.
Tavia: Absolutely.
Rory: And people could [00:25:25] just go buy it. Um, we’ve just, and right now we’ve said the only way you can get it
Tavia: right
Rory: is through our [00:25:30] app. ’cause we just want to know who the people are. Um, but, uh, okay. Let’s talk about the [00:25:35] art of it, because this is, I, IM important and, and I know this is something you’re really passionate [00:25:40] about.
Yeah. And, and I have to say, you know, I’ll start by saying. You know, [00:25:45] I’m a two time world champion of public speaking, and I thought, oh, I [00:25:50] can just like pick up the microphone and just record this, right? Like, I do this for a living. And then I met you and [00:25:55] I was so empowered by the coaching that you gave me, and [00:26:00] my first two books were traditionally published.
Mm-hmm. I [00:26:05] had an audio producer, but basically they just sat there and said, oh, [00:26:10] you fumbled that word. Go back and rerecord, oh, that pause was too long. We need to edit that out. [00:26:15] Like you did something completely different. Yeah. My experience with [00:26:20] you was so much better. It was a completely different level, which in a way [00:26:25] was very surprising to me because I would’ve thought, oh, the traditional publishers and my big fancy book deal [00:26:30] would’ve come with mm-hmm.
Another level here, so, so describe [00:26:35] what do you think are the spectrums of. What it means to have an [00:26:40] audiobook producer and, and, and a creative director. And yeah. And what, what are some [00:26:45] of that intel?
Tavia: Yeah. Well, I loved working with you and I’m really, really honored that I got to, and that it [00:26:50] made a difference in your experience.
I served as the audiobook [00:26:55] producer, so my company Talkbox from end to end, from, you know, your [00:27:00] manuscript to talking and consulting around distribution. Uh, [00:27:05] that’s the service that we provided in the booth. I served as your audiobook director [00:27:10] and so I was helping you stay present in the moment, [00:27:15] deeply connected to the material.
And the difference is, [00:27:20] I think in. Working without the knowledge or without the, the guidance [00:27:25] of somebody like me. An author thinks their job is to read their book aloud. I’m just reading the [00:27:30] text and recording it into the microphone, and I think that’s the last thing that you were [00:27:35] doing. What I guided you to do is discover the material as if [00:27:40] it was for the first time to think the thoughts in real time as you were.
[00:27:45] Discovering them all over again to connect to the emotion of it, to be in your [00:27:50] heart throughout. It’s a very meditative practice. I think your book was about eight and a [00:27:55] half, nine hours maybe. And so for both of you, I was inviting you to be present [00:28:00] moment to moment to moment, and. It is about [00:28:05] phrasing for, excuse me, phrasing for sense, making sure that the emphasis is [00:28:10] on the, the best operative word.
That your, you know, your diction is [00:28:15] smooth and listenable. Um, that everything is clear, but it’s really about how [00:28:20] connected are you, how alive is this in you and great actors. The thing that [00:28:25] differentiates great actors from. Average actors is their sense of [00:28:30] discovery and it’s fresh. Even if they’ve rehearsed that play or practiced that [00:28:35] scene for, you know, 50 times before when the audience sees it, [00:28:40] they’re experiencing somebody in a state of discovery.
That’s exactly what makes a great [00:28:45] audiobook. Is it new? Have we, do we feel like we’ve never thought this before? We’re [00:28:50] just. Discovering this right now. Mm-hmm. Now it’s, it’s a totally different energy. [00:28:55] So
Rory: the, the, and the mistake I made as a new author. Was [00:29:00] I read my audiobook.
Tavia: Mm-hmm.
Rory: The thing that I did with, as an experienced [00:29:05] author and with your coaching was I didn’t read the audiobook.
I performed to the audiobook. [00:29:10] Yeah. And that is a very subtle distinction. Yeah. But a [00:29:15] massive Yeah. Impact.
Tavia: Yeah.
Rory: For the reader. And even going back and listening to [00:29:20] to, to it, I was like, wow. Like the wealthy and well-known book on [00:29:25] audio, it’s not. Informational experience. Right. No, [00:29:30] it’s an emotional experience.
It’s, and that’s the difference is are you delivering an [00:29:35] informational experience of reading the book or are you delivering an emotional [00:29:40] experience Yeah. Of performing the book.
Tavia: Yeah. I wanna hear your breath. I. I wanna hear [00:29:45] your, you know, the, the cracks in your voice. I wanna hear when you start to get emotional, [00:29:50] a lot of authors say, what if I cry and I think I wanna hear that human [00:29:55] experience of an emotional connection to the material?
Because you’re, that means [00:30:00] you’re emotionally connected to your listener. That’s service. And that’s the [00:30:05] difference, I think, will barely touch on ai, because I think AI [00:30:10] is, it’s a dead medium essentially, but. You weren’t [00:30:15] making noise, you were offering meaning there’s resonance and [00:30:20] frequency in what you did, and that’s why I’m not too worried about AI because [00:30:25] what you created, you and AJ in the booth could never be replicated [00:30:30] by an artificial voice.
Rory: Well, and we actually did use ai, so not [00:30:35] everybody knows this, but because we released the audio as a free part of [00:30:40] our book launch to, to spread the word about the physical book. For speed’s sake, [00:30:45] we did use mm-hmm. AI to release the first version. Um, [00:30:50] and. You know, then we went and recorded anyways. And it’s because of what [00:30:55] you were saying.
Yeah. It’s like, I don’t want AI to replace my soul. [00:31:00]
Tavia: Right.
Rory: And, and I don’t want to rob the, the, the listener [00:31:05] of. The human connection. Even if AI could emulate my [00:31:10] voice perfectly, it wouldn’t emulate the emotion in the [00:31:15] moment. Mm-hmm. At the right. Exact intensity.
Tavia: Mm-hmm.
Rory: Of which I would [00:31:20] deliver it, because I’m not, you know, one of the keys to storytelling that we tell speakers is [00:31:25] you don’t, you don’t retell the story.
You relive the story.
Tavia: Exactly. Exactly.
Rory: And that is [00:31:30] also true here in audio books. And so. I’m not [00:31:35] worried about AI either. I’m sure there’s gonna be people who use AI for their audiobook. [00:31:40] Fine. Just like there’ll be people who use AI to like produce all their video content on YouTube or [00:31:45] whatever,
Tavia: right.
Rory: Whatever. There’s, that’s a choice to make, but I, I think [00:31:50] that human connection is really important and, and. And what people [00:31:55] really want. And ironically, as AI takes over, I think people are gonna crave that more.
Tavia: [00:32:00] Yes, I agree. You’re also giving up owner, um, rights in your ip, [00:32:05] ai. Uh, there’s little intellectual property [00:32:10] protection, so if you’re gonna put your audiobook in AI because you think it’s fast.
Your team [00:32:15] learned how slow and labor intensive it was mm-hmm. To put out an AI version. It also [00:32:20] compromises your, your rights to your own material. So people should be very careful [00:32:25] about safeguarding their ip.
Rory: Mm-hmm. Yeah. So, um, [00:32:30] the. What are some of the other, what other tips do you have [00:32:35] for, uh, reading your audiobook or let’s say performing the audiobook?
Mm-hmm. Since we’re [00:32:40] establishing that as the, as the standard, like what are some of the mistakes that [00:32:45] authors make when it comes to actually delivering their own material over audio?
Tavia: [00:32:50] Yeah. The first step is not recording in the proper environment. You want the [00:32:55] best quality audio. Obviously that’s the medium, so you want it to be.
Um, [00:33:00] the right sound for audio books, which means not recording in a music [00:33:05] centered studio. When you record an album, um, when you put out your next [00:33:10] country album mm-hmm. With your songs
Rory: mm-hmm. Yeah. I’m working on Right. I know. I have been using AI to help me write music ’cause I, I [00:33:15] can’t perform music. Yeah.
Tavia: You want the sound of the studio around you. That’s part of the [00:33:20] environment for an audio book. You don’t wanna hear the environment, it’s just the voice. So [00:33:25] people need to record in a proper studio that is ready for audio books. [00:33:30] When you’re actually recording your book, one of the most, um, [00:33:35] typical mistakes or things that authors do that deflates the energy [00:33:40] is to have an up inflection.
So if you’re reading your book and you’re sounding like everything [00:33:45] is in a question, it. It is very, it’s not empowered, it’s not [00:33:50] specific. It’s, and I hear this a lot with, with all levels of readers, but [00:33:55] especially new readers, they’re asking the question, so you really want to plant [00:34:00] that idea in the ground that is specific, that is something [00:34:05] powerful, right?
It’s a very different sound. So if you [00:34:10] are, listen, if you wanna hear yourself in,
Rory: so if I, if I, if I read it like this. [00:34:15] That makes it sound like a question.
Tavia: Yeah.
Rory: Versus I go, I’m saying it like this.
Tavia: I want you to [00:34:20] be wealthy and well known. That’s
Rory: a statement, that’s a directive.
Tavia: I want you to be wealthy and well known.
[00:34:25] You mean that? That’s something I always think of. It’s like you’re planting that steak, you’re [00:34:30] planting that seed.
Rory: Mm-hmm.
Tavia: So that’s one thing that somebody can listen back to [00:34:35] their own sort of test. And here where am I using that up inflection, [00:34:40] uh, unconsciously, and how can I change that to make it grounded?
Rory: Yeah. And that’s what’s [00:34:45] powerful about having you sit there, listen in real time is like some of that’s hard to [00:34:50] hear. Like as I’m trying to read and I’m trying to deliver. I can’t [00:34:55] also be listening and editing my voice at the same time. That’s where it’s helpful to have like a, a [00:35:00] producer, or I guess you would call that a direct director,
Tavia: director.
Mm-hmm. Um, another big tip [00:35:05] is. Paragraph. Breaks are paragraph breaks and punctuation are your [00:35:10] map. Mm. So when you’re narrating your book, you’re following your own punctuation, your [00:35:15] own phrasing. We don’t speak in sentences, we speak in [00:35:20] phrases. We speak in grouped thoughts. So just because there’s more text on the page [00:35:25] doesn’t mean you need to read like a freight train that’s just at a pace and it’s just continuing to go without a [00:35:30] break.
Rory: Mm.
Tavia: There are, there should be pauses for thought, pauses, for [00:35:35] breath, um, and paragraph breaks are a big shift in time [00:35:40] and space. So you really want to land each thought at the end of the [00:35:45] sentence, let it have its moment and fall to a close. Begin the [00:35:50] next para, uh, the, the next sentence when you’re ready.
Paragraph [00:35:55] breaks go somewhere totally different. Mm-hmm. There’s a, a shift there. So it’s all about [00:36:00] pacing, phrasing, tone. Um,
Rory: this was another thing [00:36:05] that I learned from you about audio books, was that the punctuation. [00:36:10] For an audio book is different than the punctuation for a printed book. [00:36:15]
Tavia: Hmm.
Rory: And you actually took our manuscript and laid it out [00:36:20] differently in certain parts and broke it up in certain ways.
To [00:36:25] emphasize that you wanted it to be read aloud differently [00:36:30] with different pauses and annunciation than it would be read [00:36:35] quietly, uh, through in a physical book.
Tavia: Mm-hmm.
Rory: Um, also, you caught a lot of stuff [00:36:40] related to like calls to actions. Mm. And mm-hmm. And instructions [00:36:45] and URLs that. Occurred differently when you’re looking at it on a page [00:36:50] versus hearing it in in the ear.
Tavia: Mm-hmm.
Rory: And you, you took our manuscript and [00:36:55] really like analyzed all of that and came and presented, you presented [00:37:00] our own manuscript differently. Like there was a lot of work actually that. [00:37:05] I overlooked or undervalued how much work there would be in [00:37:10] prepping a manuscript that was already done,
Tavia: which you wrote.
Rory: Which I wrote, but [00:37:15] prepping that for an audiobook. Read that. There’s actually a lot to that,
Tavia: right? Yeah. [00:37:20] There, there should be. We’re, you know, prepping that manuscript, looking for [00:37:25] vocabulary. Does everything, are we pronouncing everything? Uh, correctly. [00:37:30] And just because you’ve written the book or cited those studies or interviewed those [00:37:35] scientists or authors or experts, doesn’t mean you’ve thought, how do we pronounce their name?
[00:37:40] Mm-hmm. But you wanna honor them by being correct in, in all of that vocabulary. [00:37:45] You want to translate the visual components in text or decide [00:37:50] this is not translatable or it would be awkward. That needs to be put in the bonus. PDF. [00:37:55] I’m, uh, working on a very, very long audio book, [00:38:00] um, coming up and so we wanna be thinking how are we going to keep the listener’s [00:38:05] attention for that many hours?
Do we need to break it up with a little bit of a music cue? What’s going to [00:38:10] be enhancing the experience, not irritating the listener? A [00:38:15] vocal performance, especially in fiction, how are you going to sustain a character voice? Yeah. [00:38:20] That’s, you know, for hour upon hour. It’s, it’s those nuances that come [00:38:25] from within the, you know.
A thousand plus books. I’ve kind of [00:38:30] seen it all. And now that I’ve said that tomorrow I’ll get a book, something different, something completely different and [00:38:35] surprising. But there’s a lot of prep that goes into a polished audio book. And then [00:38:40] how are you, uh, labeling your chapters? What kinds of [00:38:45] calls to action are you creating?
It’s, it’s a lot deeper than just. Just read the text [00:38:50] and record it and
Rory: yeah, I mean, you, you can see now that just in this conversation there is [00:38:55] a lot of complexity around how does the business work? What’s the right way to distribute, how do the [00:39:00] royalties work, how do you prep the manuscript for it? How do you prep yourself for it?
How do you deliver it, [00:39:05] how do you edit it? All of these things. Um, that’s the difference between, there’s [00:39:10] producers, there’s direction. Uh, you also, uh. Function as a literary, an [00:39:15] audio literary agent in a way for mission-driven press authors, right? We can work with you. And then setting all [00:39:20] that stuff up. And that’s one of the things where we were like, you know what?
If someone’s a mission-driven press author, we’re [00:39:25] just gonna say, we can solve this problem for you without stealing your rights.
Tavia: Yeah. Yeah.
Like,
Rory: like, [00:39:30] we’ll just, you know, we pay a fee. To you, you take care of it, but then the author still maintains [00:39:35] control of their IP and stuff, which is important. But anyways, if you’ve got any of these [00:39:40] questions, uh, if, if these things are curious to you, uh, Tavia is available for you to talk to.
[00:39:45] She is one of our recommended vendors. So if you go to free brand [00:39:50] training.com/audiobook, free brand training.com/audiobook, you [00:39:55] can get in communication with her. We’ll have her contact the info there. You can, you know, ask her [00:40:00] stuff. She can send you some of these. These things that she’s talked about. So check that out.
Free brand [00:40:05] training.com/audiobook. Uh, tavia, any final thoughts that you would wanna share [00:40:10] with somebody who is currently thinking about an audiobook working on an audiobook? Uh, [00:40:15] you know, what, what would you leave us with?
Tavia: Yeah. I think the most important message for me to [00:40:20] put out into the world is that your voice is your birthright.
You are here to [00:40:25] use it. When you’re born, the first thing that you do is use your voice. [00:40:30] I believe that’s for a reason. So I think that audio is [00:40:35] spiritual. It furthers your mission and deepens your [00:40:40] impact, and it is a. Transformative [00:40:45] superpower. Mm. So I’m honored to have worked with you and heard your voice in [00:40:50] my ear for several days, and you know, your sound waves are going out into the world [00:40:55] in perpetuity impacting, and that is something that I hold so close to my [00:41:00] heart.
So audio books are not just a nice thing to have. They’re a profoundly [00:41:05] transformative vehicle for change.
Rory: Hmm. That is beautiful. And your [00:41:10] message matters. That’s why you’re here. We refer to our audience as mission-driven messengers. If you’re [00:41:15] getting value from this content, this podcast, please make sure to share it with somebody [00:41:20] else who you think could, can learn from it.
We’d love to have your comments, your feedback, your ratings [00:41:25] and your reviews wherever you listen to this show. Please let us know how we can [00:41:30] continue to serve you. I hope and trust that this, this information, this interview [00:41:35] was valuable. We’ll catch you next time on the Wealthy and Well-Known [00:41:40] [00:41:45] [00:41:50] podcast.
WWK Ep 019: The Truth About PR No One Tells You (And Why It Matters More Than Ever) with Danielle Finck
WATCH THE INTERVIEW LISTEN TO THE EPISODE BELOW PR is having a moment, and it has very little to do with press releases. In this episode, AJ sits down with Danielle Finck to talk about what public relations actually is in 2026, why relationships still matter more than reach, and why earned media is becoming more valuable as AI […]
WWK Ep 018: Quit Now! If You Won’t Invest in Your Dream…
speaker-1 (00:00)
I’m sorry, but if you can’t come up with a few thousand dollars to invest in your dream, then quit your dream now. Because if you’re not spending that money and time with us, then what are you spending it on? And I go, if you’re not doing it, like you’re not gonna make it.
speaker-0 (00:20)
I want to say something to a very specific type of person who is listening to this episode today. You know you’re capable. You know that there’s a calling on your life. You know you have the experience and the expertise to make a real difference in lives of people that need.
to need to hear from you and only the way that you can share. But somewhere along the lines, you’ve begun to drift. You’ve begun to not believe in yourself. You’ve begun to give up on your dream. You’ve begun to stop doing things that you used to do. And really what’s happening is you’ve begun to give up on yourself and the dream and the calling that you have on your life. And I don’t believe that it’s an accident that you’re listening to this episode today. This episode is
for you, the person who has begun to drift to fall away from the calling on your life and hopefully today is a call back to that calling so that you can get back on with your dream. So Rory, this is a unique episode of really a wake-up call to the person who is giving up on the calling, on their audience, on themselves, up on their dream. And so I’d love to just start with you as like, what do you think
that person needs to hear today to be reinvigorated to get back to the work that they used to find with vigor and passion and excitement that now just feels pointless and exhausting.
speaker-1 (01:50)
Yes. I mean, if you had a dream, and you’re feeling discouraged, the first thing that I want you to know is that you’re normal. It doesn’t mean there’s something wrong with you. I think there is a mental part of this of like, we need a motivational kick in the pants. And then there is a psychological part of understanding how the human brain works. And I hope we talk about both of those things today. And I want to start
with the psychological part in terms of why you’re normal. The human brain is not designed for success. The human brain is designed for survival. And there’s a big difference between success and survival. To survive means to stay safe. To survive means to conserve energy. To survive and stay alive means to do what is not risky, to do things that are predictable.
Everything about survival is about safety. What does it mean to be successful? Almost exactly the opposite.
Success is about doing things that make you uncomfortable. Success is about doing new things. Success is about taking chances. Success is about doing things you’ve never done before. And so if you’re feeling discouraged, it doesn’t mean there’s something wrong with you. It doesn’t mean that God doesn’t have it, you know, in your destiny to be successful. It doesn’t mean that your calling isn’t important. It doesn’t mean that you’re not qualified. It means that you have a perfectly functioning
healthy, normal human brain, but that that normal human brain is pulling you to safety and security and comfort and predictable. And you’re just experiencing the tension between
the way that your brain is designed first and foremost to keep you alive and you becoming the person you need to be, which is somebody that is comfortable being uncomfortable, somebody who is willing to do things that other people don’t do, someone who is willing to do things that you don’t like doing or don’t feel like doing just because they’re new things. So you’re in the middle of an important journey. You’re not backwards. You’re not behind.
You’re right where you’re supposed to be, but you are at a point where you got to decide, you going to turn back to the way you’ve always done things, or are going to follow the calling and keep going forward? And I think today’s episode is about helping make sure you keep going forward.
speaker-0 (04:25)
Alright, so I have a personal question for you. Yeah, I don’t think I know the answer to this.
speaker-1 (04:27)
personal question.
It’s like date night. On
date night we try to ask questions to each other that we don’t know the answer
speaker-0 (04:36)
Is there something that you have given up on in your life that you truly quit that you look back now and you really regret?
speaker-1 (04:45)
Wow, yeah, that’s a deep one, babe. Say it again.
speaker-0 (04:50)
⁓ Is there
something in your life that you truly gave up on that you quit that looking back now you really regret that you didn’t see it through?
speaker-1 (04:58)
No, ⁓ there’s not. And I know that’s not the like empathetic answer and like, but it’s there is not. There’s some like crazy dreams that I have, know, like, ⁓ you know, I’ve always had a dream of like a TV show for speakers like ⁓
speaker-0 (04:59)
Wow.
No, but
I mean something that you actually-
speaker-1 (05:17)
Yeah, like something
real. mean, the closest thing would be not winning the world championship of public speaking. You know, that was something I really, really wanted. And I came in second in the world. And, you know, it’s like, you know, I could have gone back and do it, but I realized it really wasn’t about the title. It was about the person who became the process. So
speaker-0 (05:38)
Do you regret
going back a third time? do you wish that like hindsight 2020? It’s like, no, I wish I would have gone back and tried for.
speaker-1 (05:46)
first.
don’t. don’t. And I think that’s actually an important part of the conversation of this is to go my life, you know, early on, it was like trying to achieve destinations.
And it was really about like, want to conquer this thing. And I think as I’ve studied success more and tried to adapt it in my own life, I really embraced the idea that it’s like, it’s actually not about the destination. It’s about who I’m becoming in the process. ⁓ You know, as the famous philosopher Miley Cyrus once said, it’s all about the climb. ⁓ And so I think that’s relevant.
It’s not that I haven’t failed. mean, that would be an example. I guess you technically could say I failed to reach that goal. But what didn’t fail was my ultimate destination was I wanted to become one of the best speakers in the world. didn’t it wasn’t the world championship that was the finish line. It was inspiring people and changing them and setting that up. And in many ways, I we’ve been able to do that. And there’s still another level to that that I’m still pursuing. But there’s not a finish line to that. And so I think a part of
what you have to do is you have to learn to fall in love with the daily grind. have to fall in love with the idea that
I’m going to experience losses along the way or what people would call losses. I didn’t get that. I wanted to have a number one New York Times bestseller. We’ve hit the New York Times twice now, neither time number one. I would have loved to do that, but it’s like, ⁓ it wasn’t really about, that’s not what writing a book is about. It’s not about the number one New York Times bestseller. It’s about writing a book that changes the world, forwards our business, codifies what we believe in, and those things are all
available and more meaningful. And so I think sometimes people get discouraged because like they didn’t get the result. you know, we did a big launch recently and it was like, I would have loved to have a better result. But we had effective progress. And so I think that is a psychological switch that people need to flip in their brain to go,
Yes, I’m moving towards results, but what I’m really interested is strengthening my character, creating better processes, enforcing consistency, knowing that even though I didn’t get on paper the W, the win that I wanted in the way I got the win, the long term is the game that I’m playing and I’m on track for that as long as I don’t quit. So I haven’t ever quit something that
like I was in the middle of just because it was hard or just because it wasn’t going the way I wanted. I can’t honestly say that I have. I’ve gotten close to quitting.
speaker-0 (08:48)
What number did take the stairs? Do you think that’s a coincidence?
speaker-1 (08:50)
Number two, New York Times.
I’ve thought about this a lot. So I got number two, world champion of public speaking, number two for Take the Stairs. There was a college, ⁓ you know, in college there was an award called the Student Excellence Award that I won at one time. I was the runner up for that. I did end up winning that two years later. But ⁓ it’s possible that there’s a coincidence to it because I think part of how I view this is anytime I don’t
get what I want. I view that as both a question of my own motives, of like, did I really want to help people or did I really want something for me? And the other thing I use it as a question of is a question of faith, of do I trust God because God sent me in a direction but it didn’t actually come true.
like in the way I thought it was going to come true, in the way I wanted it to come true. ⁓ And so, I think that’s a test of faith is to go, will you continue going forward? Will you continue to trust me even though what you’re experiencing right now in this moment is not the way you would have drawn it up? To me, that’s the very essence of faith.
speaker-0 (09:51)
and the way you.
Yeah. And I share that because I’ve often thought about that, you know, too, of, know, the way we want success often looks different than the way that God sees success. And for the person who’s, you know, on the verge of giving up or quitting, how much of that really does come down to is I just didn’t think it would look like this. I thought it would be different than this. I thought it would be easier than this, or I thought this would have happened. And because our own expectations, which were founded in nothing really,
other than what we wanted, aren’t met in the exact way that we wanted.
speaker-1 (10:47)
That’s, mean, look, the difference between gratitude and frustration can be explained simply with frustrations, right? If my expectation level is here and what I’m experiencing is above that, I experience gratitude. If my expectation level is here and what I’m experiencing is below that, I experience frustration. The only difference is where is the expectation, right? And so, I think when people place expectations on God, on themselves, on other people,
speaker-0 (11:14)
success, marriage,
speaker-1 (11:15)
where you think
you’re supposed to be at this age, where you think you’re supposed to be, you know, at this many years in the business, you’re setting an expectation level, again, basically based on nothing or typically on comparison, which is even worse. And, and that’s where your emotions are coming from, is this baseless set of expectations. Now, I try to hold myself to high standards.
But I have low expectations, right? It’s like I’m sort of pleasantly surprised with whatever result we do get even if it’s beneath and that’s a concept. Everything we’re talking about here, by the way, is inside of the Take the Stairs book, right? This is like what I built my career on because that’s what I built my life on. And there’s a section in Take the Stairs, which is my first book for those of that don’t know, where I talk about
Successful people put their self-esteem in their work habits, not in their results. And it’s one of the most defining characteristics because even if you’re a top performer,
If you experience low self-esteem because you didn’t get the result you wanted, then you’re going to quit at some point. But if you’re a low performer who just goes, I’m just focusing on my work ethic, I’m controlling what I can control, I’m getting better, then over the long haul, it’s going to work out. And, you know, I don’t mean to over-spiritualize it, but you know this. My life verse is Hebrews 12-11, which says that,
of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it. And I’ve put my faith in that verse my whole life to say, what feeling good right now is not an essential criteria or measurement or determinant of my success. It’s actually completely irrelevant to my success because God’s Word tells me, common sense tells you,
Ultra-performers will corroborate, as will data, that in the long term, if you do the fundamentals, that ultimately you will reap a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it. And I look back on my life and go, man, lots of seasons have been hard, but I look at where I am and I go, well, I don’t know how else to describe what I’m experiencing other than a harvest of righteousness and peace.
speaker-0 (13:42)
Yeah, I think I love that take on it. And I love that you’re able to look back and go, hey, there was nothing really that I gave up on. And there was nothing that I didn’t follow through. ⁓ For the person, unfortunately, I can’t say that I was like making a mental list. like, I have like a page full of things.
speaker-1 (14:00)
I mean, I’m curious. Yeah, now I’m curious about what…
speaker-0 (14:02)
Like, well, I know, where do
you want to start? But it’s like as I was reflecting and thinking of like, why did I not see dance through? Because you know, I was in a company, right? I was a dancer for 13 years. I just I realized, like I was thinking, it’s like, I just didn’t want it as bad as the other girls did. I was more concerned with, am I going to be available for social hour? ⁓ You know, and I think a lot of that had to do with insecurities of really wanting to be liked and really wanted to be in the in group. ⁓
And what I regret is that I let down my company.
I regret that I didn’t practice as hard as they did and that I was not as prepared as they were. I some of them went on to Juilliard and the Atlanta School of Ballet. Like they were very good because they practiced really hard. I didn’t have that level of commitment as a young teenager. I just didn’t. have like a long list of things that I’m like, I wish I probably would have saw that through and that went through. I was a different person then. And that’s not who I am today. But I would, I think we’re
My question is, is for the person who’s going like, yeah, maybe I just don’t want it as bad as I used to.
speaker-1 (15:10)
you.
That I think is a fair question because because you asked me and I say like, I would describe myself as someone that I have an extremely I have always had an extremely high level of commitment and focus to a very few small number of things. Right. And and so the paradox principle of sacrifice from take the stairs says, okay, how do people pull themselves through the muck? How do you endure the pain?
about that. ⁓ So when you ask that question, what is what must I do in order to endure the suck of achieving the goal? And it’s simple, you leverage long term vision to endure short term sacrifices. That’s it. So if someone is struggling with discipline, a lot of times people will say, Rory, I’m struggling with a lack of discipline. But in reality,
It’s not that they’re struggling with a lack of discipline as much as they’re struggling with a lack of vision. In other words, discipline becomes dormant in the absence of a dream. If I have a clear vision and it’s the vision I really want and I spend time thinking about it and I allow myself the permission to dream about it coming true,
then it creates a naturally strong connection. Think of it like a safety line, right? Like ⁓ that is pulling me through all of the muck it takes to get there. Inversely or conversely, if I don’t have a clear vision of what I want or…
I it’s fuzzy or I have a vision but I don’t really want it that bad or I have a vision and I don’t think about it that often or I have a vision but I don’t allow myself the permission to have it because I think it’s really unrealistic because it is unrealistic for all of us at first but if you don’t have that then you don’t have a more line to pull you through the muck and so you don’t because in this instance
there’s a context for the sacrifice to take place. There’s something that I want, I’m willing to do whatever it takes to get there. In this one, there’s not anything I really want, which means my brain is gonna default to whatever is most convenient, most comfortable.
in the short term and so we don’t. And so I think that’s part of what, and this is a place where I do struggle a little bit relating with some people and I think for the most part people are like, Rory’s a nice guy, but when I coach my private clients and even if I’m coaching a young speaker, when I look at the cost of our brand builders group program, I was having this conversation recently with someone on our sales team. I go, if you, we are giving people,
what I believe is more valuable than a four-year, six-year degree in this whole space for less than the price that you would pay to take one class for one semester in college.
I believe our program legitimately is as valuable as a four-year degree if you want to be a speaker, author, coach, consultant, or if you’re an expert of any kind. And we give you the entire freaking program for less than one college class.
plus the live experiences, plus the AI bots to execute it. And I go, I’m sorry, but if you can’t come up with a few thousand dollars to invest in your dream, then quit your dream now. Because if you’re not spending that money and time with us, then what are you spending it on? And I go, if you’re not doing it, like you’re not gonna make it.
speaker-0 (19:03)
Well, that comes back to the difference of do you say you want it or do you really want it? Exactly. It’s like, do you want it bad enough? Do you really want it?
speaker-1 (19:13)
Do you want it enough to endure what it takes to get it? That’s the real question. Right? It’s like, yeah, everybody would love to have a New York Times bestseller. Okay, here’s a more, funnier example of me in the opposite, right? It’s like, so we, know, I’ve been using AI to write songs, as you know, right? And it’s like, I’d ⁓ love to be a music star. Like, I would love my songs to be all over the radio. Like, I think they’re really good. And I would love to have famous people sing the songs and get millions of dollars in royalty checks.
But I don’t love it enough to endure what I would have to do to get it. What I’d have to give up to get it, to hustle and to build the relationships with a whole new industry of people and like, you know, cannibalize the time of the vision that we’re pursuing now and everything. like, yeah, it’s like, it’s a dream. It’s not, it’s not
actually a goal. It’s not something that I’d be willing to commit to. And so because of that, it’s a hobby, right? And I go, yeah, I’ll throw a little time at it just for fun. But like, that’s the question is, do you want it? Do you want it bad enough? And I will say for many, for many people watching,
you don’t actually want it bad enough and you’re gonna get destroyed by people who do want it bad enough. And I actually think it’s an honorable decision to say, yeah, you know what, I actually don’t really want this. I thought I did, but I don’t really want it. I think that’s an honorable decision. I think you should go all in on something you genuinely care about because you can’t compete, you can’t kind of compete and play against professionals. In the world of personal branding these days, you better bring your fricking A game because you’re competing with Cody Sanchez and Alex Hormone.
and Louis Howes and Amy Porterfield and Jenna Kutcher and Ed Milet and John Maxwell and it’s like maybe you’re not playing on that level but you’re playing against people who care about their calling and I go if you can’t invest a little money and a little time to do this you might as well just give up now. That’s you know the unfriendly Roy but that’s how I honestly feel.
speaker-0 (21:15)
Why, you know, it’s interesting because I hear a lot of people talk about, you can tell Roy is heated about this topic. I have struck a chord. have struck a chord. ⁓ but people, lot of times they say, well, I’ve just, I’m so passionate about this. And I think people use that word loosely. And we talked about this here recently of like the actual definition of passion is being willing to suffer for something. And it’s like, when you say I’m passionate about something, you’re going, no, I am willing to suffer. am willing to endure. I am willing to do the
speaker-1 (21:20)
You’ve hit a
speaker-0 (21:45)
hard stuff. I am willing to be inconvenienced. I am willing to suffer, right? I want to just like highlight that word for the thing that I love.
speaker-1 (21:53)
This is why they call it the passion of the Christ. Yeah, mean, but it’s so again, it’s all spiritual.
speaker-0 (21:56)
I knew you were going to truth,
I think it’s the difference between passion versus interests, passion versus hobbies. There’s a difference there. And it’s like, are you interested in this? I eat you.
speaker-1 (22:12)
My music,
new songwriting.
speaker-0 (22:14)
passionate about this. And if you’re passionate about it, that means you can’t not do it. That means you’re willing to suffer for it. So I just, wanted to just reconcile some of the conversation to the person that we’ve, you know, kind of started with, like that you’ve begun to give up, that you’ve begun to recoil, that you’ve begun to stop doing the things. And it’s like, maybe, maybe the first thing that you can do after listening to this episode is go, ⁓ is this an interest or a passion? And perhaps there’s
There’s a line of difference that you need to recognize in this thing that you’re doing. It’s like, no, this is something I’m interested in versus this is something I’m passionate in. Because if it’s just an interest, it’s a hobby and those can come and go, right? You spend more, you spend less, but that’s different than a passion and a calling.
speaker-1 (23:03)
And I think the difference between another difference between an interest and a passion is an interest is something that works out if it’s convenient for it to work out. Like if I have some extra time, I’ll deke around with songwriting. If I post it and it takes off and goes viral and okay, great, it works out. That’s different than a passion that goes, I’m going to do whatever it takes, right?
being a speaker, becoming one of the best speakers in the world wasn’t something that I lightly did or accidentally did or stumbled my way into. It was a commitment and a focus and an endurance and it still is, right? I still feel like I’m early in my speaking career of like really where I wanna be. And by the way, I don’t think it’s dishonorable at all.
to identify something as an interest. Totally. think what you’re saying is really important is just be honest with yourself.
speaker-0 (24:01)
And I think perhaps if you’re feeling a dwindling in something, I guess what I would maybe ask you to reflect on is, was it really just an interest? Was it really just something you’d like to do? Was it a hobby versus a calling and a passion? You know, as you were talking, I was thinking, I have a good friend, his name is Dennis. And what started as something that was just a hobby and interest was pickleball. And it was something that he did for fun. Then he kind of was like, hey, I’m pretty good at this. this now it’s a social thing. He did it with his wife and he was doing it with friends. Now it’s a full.
passion. And it’s like, here’s how I know it. It’s all he wants to talk about. He’s like, Hey, you want to get together and play pickleball? It used to be, Hey, do want to get together and talk about business? It’s like, ⁓ and everything is situated around his pickleball schedule and his now tournaments, what he’s reading, what he’s watching. And it’s like, I have watched this shift from, it’s something I casually do to it’s something I’m passionate about doing. He gets up at 5am to do it before work. He’s now watching game film. He’s hired a
coach, he’s now weight training so that he can have a better spring. He’s now reading books and he just got the lottery ticket for the U S open for pickleball. It has evolved into something and it’s, and I think the reason I called on that as you were talking is like, I’ve watched a hobby turn into a passion and there’s a difference. It’s Hey, this is something I do and I have time and it’s convenient versus no, I’m willing to be inconvenienced. I will spend my money, time and energy to learn about it, to do it, to talk about it, to practice it.
And that’s
Maybe that’s just some self-reflection that you can ask yourself. It’s do I read about this in my spare time? Do I talk about it when no one else is bringing it up? Is this what I spend time thinking about or dreaming about or journaling about? Is this what I’m asking questions? Is this the content I’m following? And if the answer is no to all of those, then maybe it’s just an interest and that’s okay. But then maybe you shouldn’t be beating yourself up so much. This is just a seasonal interest or something that has come and gone versus knowing the difference between a passion.
which is something you’re willing to suffer for, a true calling on your life.
speaker-1 (26:06)
And here’s a litmus test, another litmus test to know if something is a calling and a passion or just like a hobby and an interest. If your commitment is conditional, that means it’s a hobby and if your commitment is unconditional, that means it’s a passion and a calling. To me, the metaphor I’ve been thinking about a lot and coaching myself with is a wedge. I love a wedge. A wedge forces itself into something, right? Like you prioritize
speaker-0 (26:18)
That’s good.
speaker-1 (26:36)
You a passion. You prioritize a calling. You don’t wait for the time to be available. You make it available. It wedges its way into your life, into your conversation. You don’t go, if I have time, I’ll do that. It’s like, no, I’m gonna do that and then everything else will be, if I have time, I’ll do those things.
speaker-0 (26:59)
That’s good.
All right. Well, this is a good transition into our community question, which you get to read.
speaker-1 (27:08)
question I
to read to you okay so community question ⁓
One of our favorite segments. Okay, so these are from our members that are in our brand builders group membership program. They vote on the most pressing question and then they vote up, you know, which questions they think are most applicable to them. And the one with the most upvotes is the community question. So this week it’s from Sarah. Rory and AJ, I’ve been a brand builders group client for almost two years. Thank you, Sarah. I’ve done the workshops. I know my brand. I know my message. I genuinely believe in the work I do, but I cannot stay
consistent. I’ll be on a roll for two or three weeks posting showing up making progress and then something happens. A busy season, a hard week, a vacation and I fall completely off. You’re not alone. And then the shame of falling off makes it even harder to get back up. This cycle has been going on for two years. I’m exhausted by it. How do I break it for good? Wow. What a powerful honest question. ⁓ Yeah. AJ, why don’t you just solve this one for us?
speaker-0 (28:14)
⁓ Here’s what I would say is you got to ask yourself is there something in the cyclical nature of what you’re doing that isn’t sustainable and is that why you keep falling off? ⁓ And so I think that there’s a lot of things like if I just take the more tactical approach versus the mindset and the emotional approach.
speaker-1 (28:26)
That’s good tactical.
I’m gonna take the mindset
and emotion.
speaker-0 (28:36)
I figured you might, ⁓ is it’s really more of like, Hey, are you biting off more than you can chew? And that’s why there’s an ebb and a flow. Is it not sustainable in a hard week or on a vacation week? And you got to ask yourself, it’s like, okay, well, what would need to change to make this sustainable regardless of the week?
Regardless if I’m on vacation, if it’s a hard week, if I get busy, if someone gets sick, there’s got to be something that’s sustainable no matter what. And I guess another tactical thing is like I would give yourself three versions of what consistent looks like for you. I have a my routine.
consistent, I have a low consistent week and a high consistent week. So here’s what I mean by that is on a normal routine week, this is what I do. On a low week, in other words, I would say something unexpected happens. A child is homeschooled, from school sick. There was a family emergency. It’s a vacation.
speaker-1 (29:41)
We
icepocalypse.
speaker-0 (29:43)
We
have ice pop-o-lips. In other words, what your low consistency week is, this is my bare minimum. So you’re just setting three levels of consistency for yourself. This is a routine norm that I’m going to do on a normal week. Then give yourself the permission and in a off week, then you have my bare minimum expectations.
and give yourself some grace and some peace of going, I’m going to stay consistent, but consistent looks different for me in those weeks. And then also get, but counter that with a high consistency week, is, Hey, if you have extra time, I don’t know where that comes from, but if you do, if you have extra time in a week, it’s like, Hey, on those weeks, I’m going to do this. And now you have ranges. And I think a part of having ranges is what eliminates the guilt and the shame to give yourself the grace and the compassion of going like, Hey, there’s going to be unexpected stuff that happens.
to get sick. Family members are going to fall sick. You’re going to get sick. There’s going to be vacation days. Kids are going to be out of school. There’s going to be things that happen. So give yourself like, hey, bare minimum expectations are going to happen on my unexpected weeks. My norm is this. And when I have that extra time, if it ever comes, then this is what it’s going to look like for me. And that’ll give you permission to ebb and flow through all those without feeling guilt and shame while still staying consistent.
speaker-1 (31:00)
That’s good, that’s good.
For you Sarah that asked this question and anyone who is struggling with consistency where you’re on and then you’re off and you’re on and you’re off, you say this cycle has been going on for two years and I’m exhausted by it. How do I break it for good? Part of what I would say Sarah is I think you need to reframe this. You’re saying I’m exhausted by it. When I read this, I’m energized by it. You’re talking about how you keep coming back. You’re talking about how you’ve been in for two years. You’re talking about how you’re fighting. You’re talking about how you have over
overcome shame and gotten back on the horse. I’m not exhausted by this. I’m energized by this. This isn’t necessarily something that you have to break for good. This is just you’re building the muscle that it takes. Like you have to rethink how you’re thinking about it. And I think that the, you know, the devil plants these seeds of doubt like, ⁓ this isn’t working. You’re inconsistent. No, that’s what he’s saying because you’re almost there. You’re on track. Like you are doing the
thing. So just it’s you have to you have to celebrate what you are doing and not be so focused about what you’re not doing. Look, this whole episode is been about helping you understand that you may not get the wins and you might have to slow down. You might have to slow to a crawl. Just don’t stop. Just don’t quit. Progress over perfection.
Like the victory is not in whatever expectation you’ve got in your mind of what consistency looks like. The victory is that you have been facing rejection and difficulty and you keep going. That means you’re winning. That doesn’t mean you’re losing. That means you’re winning. Keep going. Keep going. Slow down if you must, but don’t you quit, Sarah.
speaker-0 (32:52)
Yeah, and I would just, I would add to that. It’s like, this is a good reminder of how muscle is built. Muscle has to be broken down before it can be built up, right? And that is literally what you’re saying here. It’s like in order to get stronger, there has to be things that are broken down and every single time you get back on and you do it again, it’s gonna get a little bit easier and you’re gonna get a little stronger. This is a reframe. This is not exhaustion. This is growth. This is ⁓ being energized. And I love that reframe.
Y’all, everyone who’s listening, I would just encourage you, like, if this message resonates with you, one, would you just save it and come back to it on those days when you feel defeated and go, no, I need to go back and listen to this motivational pep talk from Rory Vaden of why I gotta keep going and I can’t give up.
Or maybe you’re listening to this and you’re going, this episode was built for this person I know. I have to share it with them. They’re on the verge of giving up on something. I need to share it with them. Would you just do us a favor? Do them a favor and share this episode with someone that you know that this could help give them just enough spark to keep going. And while you’re at it,
If you wouldn’t do us, or if you wouldn’t mind doing us a favor and subscribe to this so that you can get those constant reminders and tips to keep going the strategies that you need, but also the heartfelt personal experience and motivation that what you do matters. so subscribe this, share this with a friend and come back next time to hear me and Rory talk it out on the wealthy and well-known podcast.
Keep going. Keep going. going. And subscribe. And keep.
speaker-1 (34:30)
Going. Keep. Going. Keep going.
That’s great.
WWK Ep 017: More Money, More Problems? How Entrepreneurs Prevent Burnout
AJ (00:00)
gonna start by quoting Biggie Smalls. Mo money, mo problems. that’s not just a line in a rap song. Mo money, mo problems. You got mo stuff to…
RORY (00:09)
This
is why I this is I fell in love with you, babe.
Many, many entrepreneurs burn out because they don’t take care of themselves. They don’t follow the rhythms, the routines, and the priorities that we’re gonna be talking about on today’s episode. As an entrepreneur, business owner, like you, have to maintain your health and optimize your wellbeing, both mentally and physically. So we’re gonna talk about some of those ideas for how to do that with both myself, Rory Vaden, co-founder of Brand Builders Group.
I’m joined by my wife, my business partner and our CEO at Brand Builders Group, AJ Vaden. So excited to have this conversation, babe.
AJ (00:53)
Yeah, I think this is a good opportunity for reminders and refreshers for the both of us. And so as we’re reminded of all the things that work and what we should be doing, everyone else will get the benefits. ⁓
RORY (01:07)
There are some
topics that we teach that we do a really good job of and there’s other topics where it’s like we’re working progress. But I want to start the conversation with understanding why is it so stressful to be a CEO or and to be an entrepreneur? I think a lot of entrepreneurs, whether they’re just starting out or if they’ve been doing it for 30 years, I think there is this sort of destructive, limiting belief that a lot of them have that it’s like
AJ (01:13)
We’re working.
RORY (01:34)
shouldn’t be so hard and why is this so hard and if it’s this hard I must, you know, I must suck. Like I must be doing everything wrong or like everybody on my team is wrong or like just like this is terrible or it’s not God’s design. But you know when you zoom out I look at entrepreneurs on the whole and I go no this is kind of just like a hazard of the job. ⁓ And so I would love your perspective and opinion on why is it so stressful? Like what makes
the function and role of a CEO stressful. And then maybe we can try to first understand what is kind of normal ish, and then what is really like abnormal and then we can talk about the routines and rhythms for how to how to manage it all.
AJ (02:16)
Yeah, I think I would actually start with.
a not so often talked about shift from entrepreneur to CEO. Because as an entrepreneur, you typically start with doing everything. And so I liken to talk about there’s really two different definitions of CEO. And in the entrepreneur seat, a CEO is really the chief everything officer. do everything. They make the sales, they send the invoices, they pay the bills, they do the bookkeeping, they do the delivery, they
do the ideation, the execution, they do the marketing, and then eventually they hire someone and then someone else and then someone else and then someone else. But an entrepreneur starts as CEO, chief everything officer. And it’s really hard to make the leap from chief everything officer to chief executive officer. And I think there’s a, that’s just not discussed of when does everything start to fall off your plate.
And in what order does everything fall off your plate? So at some point you actually do become a CEO, which is chief executive officer, which means you’re making executive decisions. You’re not paying the bills anymore. You’re not sending the invoices. you’re not the one who is making every job post or delivering every client or having every sales call. And sometimes that shift happens quickly. And I say quickly, I mean, over five to 10 years, sometimes that shift never happens because the CEO,
entrepreneur wasn’t able to release things from their plate rather willingly ⁓ by choice or even by force.
And I think there’s a lot of that is your identity gets caught up in it. Or you just get so used to being so busy, you don’t know what to do with yourself if you don’t have all that stuff to do anymore. And I think there’s a lot of different things or you tried to pass it off and it didn’t work or someone left and then you live in the mindset of, I tried it once, it didn’t work, I’ll never do it again. Lots of things don’t work the first time. That doesn’t mean we don’t try again. But I think a lot of us live in that seat.
RORY (04:22)
So the I love this distinction between the chief everything officer, which is really an entrepreneur, CEO is a fancy title to a true chief executive officer. There seems to be stress at both places, though, like, you know, you people might think, if I was a true if I became a real CEO, and I had a bunch of people on my team to just do everything, I wouldn’t have stress and that at least not been my experience or observation that that is really what happens. It’s it’s like new levels, new devils ⁓ that
that kind of thing. what are some of the stressors that you think are normal that are kind of like, yeah, you’re going to experience this if you’re an entrepreneur or if you’re a CEO. ⁓ And then what are some of the things that maybe you try to go like, yeah, maybe this is where it is unhealthy or
AJ (05:14)
Yeah,
I think there’s two things that I would like to highlight. gonna start by quoting Biggie Smalls. ⁓ Mo money, mo problems. And that’s not just a line in a rap song. Mo money, mo problems. You got mo stuff to…
RORY (05:31)
This
is why I this is I fell in love with you, babe. Let’s talk about being a CEO by quoting Biggie Smalls. That’s my woman.
AJ (05:39)
But there is
some truth and it’s like you got my money you go have more problems And I think there’s a lot to that and people just think if I could just hit this revenue mark if I can just hit this net profit Mart if I just hit these income levels and as like well those come with more Responsibilities they come with more decisions they come with more more complexity and then they come with the second thing which is more people more problems Mm-hmm, right and I say that lovingly I love our team and I choose to have a team that’s not for everyone and I
think a lot of entrepreneurs don’t know that they don’t want a before they have one.
They realize it after the fact. Not everyone was meant to have a business where they manage a lot of team. that’s it. That’s it. That’s a choice. Like you have to have a love and a passion of building, growing, leading people to do that really well. And there’s a difference between why a lot of people became entrepreneurs because they didn’t want to work for someone else or they didn’t want to have to do, but it’s like you’re like, if you’re going to grow a business, you’re going to have to work with other people. Right. And those are your team. And so I think a lot of people get into this because they wanted freedom and flexibility and
They wanted to do their own thing and it’s like, well, once you start adding people and systems in place, well, some of that starts to shift because now there’s a team dynamic and you don’t get to make every decision on your own anymore because it impacts other people and their livelihoods and their families. And so I think there’s a lack of reckoning with that before you realize, ⁓ I’m growing. have to have more people. Wait, do I want more people? I don’t know. And I think a lot of us grow for the sake of we think growth is what we should do versus growing is what we want to do. ⁓
And I think a lot of that just comes from comparison and other issues. But I think this whole idea, like, you know, to what you were saying is what are some of the stressors that happen? And I think it’s like stress is going to come when you’re trying to do more than you’re capable of doing. And I say capable in terms of capacity. ⁓ And I think that we all have different levels of capacity.
And when you’re trying to do more than what you have capacity for is when stress comes. And I think it’s good for us all to remember, I think we use the term stress as negative. There are two different types of stress. There is a good stress, and then there is a bad stress. There is a stress that is good and healthy.
And then there is a stress that is not healthy and that is continued stress. There are some parts of quote unquote, term stress that are actually good and healthy. Biologically speaking, ⁓ they get us moving. get us doing things. They create awareness. It’s, but those prolonged are not good. it’s
RORY (08:17)
build muscle, build resilience and
AJ (08:24)
Daily minute stress, no problem. It just does that continue and compound day over day, week over week with no relief. And that’s where stress becomes really unhealthy. But stress in and of itself is not a bad thing. It’s just when it takes over and there’s no break, there’s no relief is when that becomes a bad thing. And that comes back to, you doing more than you have capacity to do?
RORY (08:48)
Yeah. And
the people topic is one that I think is a good example to go.
having people problems is normal. It’s expected. It’s hard, but it’s a healthy normal part of running a business if you have people. You have people problems not because your people are problems, but because the inherent nature of us as people is we go on vacation, we have babies, we burn out, we get bored, we have conflict with each other, right? And there’s just a natural like set of conflict, I think,
that comes from having a group of humans trying to do anything in close proximity. And that in and of itself, I think is an important realization for an entrepreneur to know, just like you’re saying is to go, if you’re bringing on people, you need to understand one, there’s going to be dynamics and challenges, there’s going to be amazing opportunity and growth that comes, but you’re signing up for increased complexity and some amount of challenges that are outside of your control. And you really have to
care about them and their their overall development as part of this.
AJ (10:00)
that what
you need to recognize is that as you bring on a team, you have to choose to become a leader, a leader of people. And it’s a, you’re adding on a whole new set of tasks and responsibilities from entrepreneur to entrepreneur to now I’m also adding in leader, leader of people. And those are ironically different.
RORY (10:24)
That is so good. Those are different. That is so true. You don’t have to be an entrepreneur. You don’t have to be a leader to be an entrepreneur. ⁓ you don’t necessarily, you don’t have to be an entrepreneur to be a leader. But the moment that you choose to scale a business and bring on people, you must also be a leader.
AJ (10:46)
You’re bringing on a whole new job and set of skills that I don’t think people recognize. ⁓ in other words, when it was just you or you and one person, it’s like, maybe you didn’t have to have so much formality such as one-on-one meetings or processes or systems or documentation and policies and, ⁓ benefits and, ⁓ team meetings. And it’s like, well, that all creates structure and guess what? That all takes time. And you didn’t double your time. You didn’t double your capacity.
And all of a sudden all these new things are creeping in and the old things haven’t come off. And that’s what I’m talking about with capacity. And so I think there’s a lot where that stress really starts to grow as we keep adding, adding, adding, and nothing falls off.
RORY (11:32)
Now.
I think, you know, it’s sort of a law of nature that if something is healthy, it grows. Right. ⁓ And I think I’ve always felt like if a business is healthy, it should generally be growing, barring like, you know, really crazy circumstances. And so that means there’s always going to be some stress, like your growth is always some level of stress. So the conversation shifts to going, OK, what can we do to manage that stress?
load as you’re saying some of it is healthy some of it’s unhealthy but there’s always stress there like if you’re growing there is stress.
AJ (12:11)
But not always bad, but yes. And even if you’re not growing their stress.
RORY (12:13)
huh. Yeah, so.
That’s right. Yeah.
If you’re if you’re declining, there’s there’s even more stress. Yeah, like there’s there’s there’s stress there too. So what are some of the practices? Yeah, the rituals that either you’ve done, you’ve seen other people do you’ve learned from that helped you sort of maintain? You know, we say in our new book, that peace is the new profit. ⁓ How have you tried to like, maintain that from a practical
AJ (12:41)
Yeah,
well, I would just say that if you relate to feeling like, yeah, I have way more work to do than I have hours in the day and I have zero capacity and I have to work on nights and I have to work on weekends and yeah, I’m exhausted. It’s like, well, I can relate to you. And I would just say you most likely can’t solve it on your own. So I’d say most of what I’m going to share, I have learned through lots of outside help, coaches, conferences, masterminds, mentors, ⁓ reading, know, prayer,
like this is not something that just comes.
RORY (13:16)
And if people don’t know
this about you and me, you’re a personal development junkie. Totally. We are personal development junkie.
AJ (13:22)
Totally.
⁓ Like one of the core values at Brain Builders Group is personal growth, i.e. personal development. So yes, I’m a huge advocate of it and apparently in this area, I’ve had to do it a lot for it to finally stick.
RORY (13:38)
Plus you’re
married, you’re married, you’re you have the extra blessing of being married to someone who adds a little extra stress along the way just just to keep you.
AJ (13:46)
But
here’s something that I have found. Now I’m a part of EO Nashville, the entrepreneurs organization here in Nashville. And I’ve had the immense privilege to have the same forum, which is like a small group within EO for 10 years. we’ve seen marriages come and go, businesses come and go, ⁓ business divorces. We’ve seen family members come and go. And it’s been a very deep relationship. And one of the things that I have seen
More that we’ve seen, you know, mergers, acquisitions and exits. So I’m just saying like first hand, real life, all the things, ⁓ resignations and hard decisions, like all the things. And one of the things that I’ve seen that causes the most stress in all of our lives is when we constantly ponder why.
And we just, we live in this, why did that happen? Why didn’t that work out? ⁓ Why, why, why? And there’s just not near enough conversation around what am I gonna do different? How can we move forward?
And I believe that in my own personal life and in the lives of the people that I get the closest front row seat to when we ruminate and why did this happen or why is it like this or why is the business declining or why didn’t that customer buy or why did that person resign or why didn’t they file the taxes on time? Why, why, why, why, why? We’re surrounding ourselves with problems and zero solutions. We’re not even giving ourselves the opportunity to go what needs to happen next.
How do we need to move forward? And I think it’s a really important thing where it’s like, would say most of my stress is when I sit there and try to figure out why isn’t this working versus what’s the next thing I can do? What’s the one thing I can do?
RORY (15:38)
You, not everybody watching knows this, you lost your mom when you were young. Did you ask that question why you were 15 years old? Of course. Right? So did you, how does that, I mean, I’ve never heard you talk about this until this very second about this distinction. And I, as you’re saying it, I’m going, that is so true. Like why doesn’t do much?
AJ (15:50)
Don’t
It
doesn’t do anything. ⁓ It does nothing for us.
RORY (16:04)
It keeps us ruminating in nothing
like productive really.
AJ (16:10)
Because even if you find the answer as to why, until you go do something about it, nothing changes.
RORY (16:17)
Did that, so did you learn that from your mom’s past?
AJ (16:21)
No, think I don’t know. don’t know. I think that I came to a very good healthy resolution years after she died of going, I have two perspectives that I can choose to move forward with. One is, why did this happen to me?
And give a whole bunch of excuses of why I was a rebellious teenager or why I don’t do this or why this happened or why I think this way. but those, those really did feel like a lot of excuses. And I think a lot of that work happened at a personal development conference. went to landmark forum and, ⁓ I think that during that retreat, right, it was like a three day retreat. I really learned it’s like, I can rather choose to live in this. Like, why did this happen to me? Why my family? Why my mom? Why, why, why?
And I like, at the end of the day, that wasn’t doing anything for me. Or the other perspective was to go like, what can I take from this event and do something positive with it? And it was a perspective shift that I made in my early 20s of like, it really did change my heart and my stance towards bad things happening to, I don’t focus on the bad, I focus on the good. And it’s like, a bad thing happened after
15 years of good things. So why don’t I talk about all the good things? Why do I talk about this one event that was really bad and I don’t talk about the other thousands of events and moments and memories that were really good? And then that made me think about in business and in sales. I remember in like my early days in sales, if I didn’t make a sale, that was the only thing I could think about.
I didn’t think about the 20 people who signed up that day. I thought about the two who didn’t follow through. And so it was like for me, it was a full life shift around I get to choose what I focus on. The bad events or the good events. And I think that’s just a choice for all of us. In the middle of, you know, we had someone recently ⁓ resign in their role at Bremboilers Group.
Right? And it’s like, I can really just get myself up in arms of like, what am I doing wrong as a leader? And don’t, and like, don’t get me wrong. I probably had a good 16 seconds of that. And before I had to like check myself, but then I had to look around and go, oh yeah. And we have 41 people who are still here. So do I want to focus on this one person who just wasn’t a fit for where we’re at in this culture of business growth? Or do I want to focus on the 41 people who were like raising their hands, going, I’m here for it. Those are choices. Bad things happen simultaneously.
with good things all around you. And I think bad stress happens when we only focus on the bad things that are happening and we’re like, why did this, why did this, why did this? Because you could also ask yourself, why is all this good stuff happening? But we don’t do that. We ask, why is the bad stuff happening? We don’t ask, why is all this good stuff happening? And I think we have to really have a good healthy discipline of countering the two. And I just don’t think we as human beings in the current state that we live in do that naturally, do that on our own. ⁓
life coach that I talk to every month that has to like bring me back to this every month because I can’t do it on my own. I have a prayer practice and a journal practice every morning where the Lord brings me back to this every morning because I don’t do it on my own.
RORY (19:39)
Yes,
I want to talk about that. mentally speaking here, there’s a big transition of going, how do you how do you stay mentally, emotionally healthy? It’s spend less time asking why and asking more time what what can be done? ⁓ It’s spending less time going. You know what bad thing happened and going spend more time thinking about what the good things were that happened when you get.
AJ (20:07)
police
counter.
RORY (20:08)
At least counter it. I mean, coming back to your mom, that’s always resonated with me that you’ve always said, you know, I don’t think of it as I lost my mom when I was only 15. I think about it as I had 15 years with the best mom ever. ⁓ And I think that’s just that’s a choice. Like that is a choice. So that’s on the mental side. ⁓ What about the practical side, the pragmatic? Like, what are the things you do in your schedule? What are the things that
activities that you engage in? Are there any other like actionable things?
AJ (20:44)
Yes.
Yeah. So I want to talk about three very specific actionable things that I think really matter a lot when it comes to how do you prevent burnout in your own, in your own life, reduce stress and actually enjoy what you do. And I think most of us who are business owners, entrepreneurs, we did this because there was a love and a passion for it. And I think it was Mike McCalliwitz I heard who say this is the biggest threat to any small business.
is that the founder just decides they don’t want to do it anymore because it becomes too much work, too much stress, too much burnout, and they’re tired. So how do you prevent that? Because that’s definitely not why you started. And I think there’s some things you have to have in place. I think the very first thing is that you actually have to have time to think.
I think most CEOs or entrepreneurs in both categories, chief everything officer or chief executive officers. If you’re, if you run with a rhythm of meeting to meeting to meeting to meeting to meeting to meeting to meeting, you have no time to think or process. So that just means you’re just making decision after decision after decision without any time to reflect, pause, think, ideate, brainstorm, counter ask questions. And it’s just not a healthy pace to be in. Again, you can do it for a short amount of time. You can do it for a day or a day every
but it can’t be every day of every week. At some point, and I use this term a lot for myself, it’s like, you’re gonna have decision fatigue. And that happens when there isn’t time to think. So schedule time in your calendar that is for strategic thinking. And then don’t schedule over it, right?
RORY (22:28)
And are you talking about
like morning routine? Are you talking about like during the day?
AJ (22:32)
During the day, Monday, I block my calendar from 2 p.m. to 5 p.m. Every Monday. Now, for those of you who listening, another practice that I have, because I have a business partner, is that we have a Monday morning walk that is our business meeting.
RORY (22:46)
That’s me.
AJ (22:50)
So, but I think there’s two things there. One, we’re business partners, we have a weekly meeting. If you have a business partner, or even this could be your executive team, you need a weekly meeting.
That’s not with everyone, but it’s with your business partner or your executive team. And it’s a three hour meeting. It’s not a 30 minute standup. It’s not a one hour stat review. This is a three hour. What’s the most important things? What do we have to discuss? What do we need to get on the same page with? What did I do last week that I didn’t tell you or vice versa? What’s happening this week that we may or may not know about, but it’s a three hour. So think that’s the first thing. If you’re not hearing me is there is a three hour business meeting with your partner or executive team every.
RORY (23:29)
week.
And I will say we started Brand Builders Group on three hour walk around a park and
Now we have 50 employees between the three businesses almost and a lot more complexity. In every stage, there has been enough to fill a three-hour meeting every Monday and more. If you’re not spending at least that much time together, everything splinters and fractures and goes crazy and creates stress.
AJ (24:01)
and create stress. Yeah. And then
you’re trying to catch up on nights and
RORY (24:05)
Because I think when you have a business partner, even if you have an executive team, one of the causes of stress is you have people running really hard in different directions. And we’ve been guilty of that. All the time. If we don’t sync, we run so hard that we just end up like, even if we’re one degree off, we’re
AJ (24:24)
And
creates
a lot of frustration for our team because then they hear two different messages or two different areas of focus. But I want everyone to hear it’s like that’s the first thing to actually not have burnout is to have this routine meeting that you don’t miss. The second thing if you didn’t catch what I heard is it’s not in a boardroom. It’s not in a conference room. It’s not at your computer. It’s not at your desk. We do it on a walk. And I think that’s really important because this becomes more about a conversation than an agenda. ⁓ It creates freedom and flexibility.
to talk about things versus what’s next. What’s next? It’s not a PowerPoint presentation. This is a conversation. Two, I have found, this is for me, not for Rory, but moving helps keep my stress level down. So as we’re getting into things that we don’t disagree on.
RORY (25:09)
And
if your stress level is down, my stress level is down. So it is for me.
AJ (25:13)
But
these are things for like when we may not have ⁓ alignment on and I have found that being in nature Specifically in nature helps me go
RORY (25:22)
If y’all haven’t noticed AJ’s hair is really red and it’s it’s you know, it’s it’s it’s indicative of certain certain behavioral ⁓ patterns. There’s some fire some truth. There’s some truth to the fiery redhead.
AJ (25:37)
Bye.
I’m not not agreeing with that. ⁓ But being in nature helps keep me centered and remembering these conversations. These problems are very small. God is big. The world is big. This is small. God is big. The world is big. ⁓ And so, again, just a perspective shift that I don’t get in a boardroom because in a boardroom, I’m looking at stats and metrics and agendas and my mind goes elsewhere. So you got to find that. Maybe that doesn’t work for you, but those are just two things every Monday. So I start my Monday.
from 8 to 11 in a very important business meeting with my partner, but then from 2 to 5, I’m in my own meeting with myself. And that’s my strategic thinking time. And a lot of that is I put that on my calendar because there were so many things I needed to go back, write down, reflect on, take action on from my meeting with Rory.
And it’s like, also have a meeting with my chief of staff. You know, some of you may call it an EA right after my meeting with Rory. And it’s like, usually it’s like that helps me prioritize my week. And I don’t wait to the end of the week to tackle those things that happens on Monday for me. And so I have found that there are good rhythms and patterns that work really well for me. And stacking my Monday with meetings is unhealthy for me. A lot of people start, they have meeting Mondays. That’s not healthy for me. I can’t have a meeting Monday. I have to have a thinking Monday, a planning Monday.
and most of my meetings happen on Tuesdays, Wednesdays, and Thursdays. So if I’m gonna take calls and meetings, they’re never on Mondays and they’re never on Fridays. So I have themes and blocks of time for each day of the week so that I’m in a good ⁓ mental pattern of this is what I do on this day. And that has been a very healthy routine, but I don’t start the meeting.
or my Mondays with meetings because they’re crazy. And then I just start the week behind. And I think people who have the Sunday blues, right? And they’re like, tomorrow’s Monday. It’s because they know what’s coming on Monday, which is it’s a full eight hour marathon. So I didn’t want to have that. And…
That was up to me. I get to make that decision, so I don’t have a bizarre Monday. I have a very well-paced strategic meeting and then a meeting with myself to make sure that I’m well planned for the week.
RORY (27:55)
I also want to highlight one thing about the meeting that we have. ⁓ If you’re married or you work with your spouse, I want to make sure people know this is where we talk about work stuff. We do not talk about work stuff at night and on the weekend because that’s a mistake that I made for years. Yeah, we both made of like we have to have dedicated part of treating the business like a business is giving it ample space and time during the workday to talk about work stuff.
and not cramming the workday with everything else and then having the strategic stuff try to spill over into the nights and weekends. It’s not a good formula. That’s a recipe for stress, not a recipe for peace and scalability.
AJ (28:40)
was the first thing. That was a long answer. I’ll make the other two quite shorter. But the first one is just meeting rhythms and how you spend Mondays. I think Mondays set the tone for the week, at least for me. And running a company and a business and making sure I’m well planned and thought out for all the one-on-ones I’m going to have, team meetings, metrics meetings, financial reviews, whatever is happening that week, it can’t be on Monday. It’s not healthy for me. The second thing is how I start my day, right? And so think this is a really important part. It’s like if you start your day ⁓ in a tailspin, you’re going to end your day in a tailspin.
So I have a really good healthy morning routine. Your morning routine can be whatever it is, but for me, I know that between ⁓ six and seven, that has to be just my time with the Lord.
And when I have that time, I have a good day. And if I don’t get to have that day, that time with the Lord, I usually have a hard day. And it’s because I didn’t have a time to sit and reflect and be grateful and to be in the word. that just, what it does, it just sets the tone of what am I grateful for? What have I been blessed with? And anything that that’s hard that I have to face that day, I’ve already countered it with all the good that’s in my life. Bad things happen all the time, but I choose to counter it with the good things that the
word has given me by talking with him about it every morning.
RORY (29:56)
So I want to double tap on that because, you know, second nature for us at this point. like to somebody who goes, you know, I picture somebody listening to that being like, wait, you spend an hour reading Leviticus like every day? Like, how do you spend an hour reading the Bible or like what are you doing there? Like to go, that doesn’t seem, you know, exciting or maybe sleepy or whatever. know, like, ⁓ how do you how do you break that hour apart?
AJ (30:25)
If
you’re not a believer, that could be reading a personal development book or if you’re of a different faith, it’s reading whatever. So I would just say it’s your spiritual time, it’s your faith time. But mine’s a combination and I’m stealing this from the book. Jamie Winship wrote the book, Living Fearless. I was not a journaler prior to reading that book. I actually thought journaling was pointless and useless until I realized it wasn’t. It was a great revelation for me a couple of years ago when I started this practice.
⁓ But here are the prompts and I do these same prompts every single day. The first thing is I say, Lord today I’m grateful for. And then I share what I’m grateful for. And it’s sometimes the same, sometimes different. I journal just in case I forget. Right? So that’s the first thing. The second prompt is, Lord today I pray for.
RORY (31:07)
In your journal you write
AJ (31:17)
and I pray for people, pray for business, I pray for change, I pray for whatever. But those are the first two things. Then my third prompt is, Lord, what do you want to reveal to me today? Then I go to the Bible. So that’s how I start my Bible study.
RORY (31:31)
And you got, so you got those questions from Jamie.
AJ (31:34)
Well, there’s another one,
so I’m not done. okay. So, Lord, what do you want to reveal to me today? And that’s when I go to the Word. That’s when I go to Scripture. ⁓ And lo and behold, every single day, He has something to reveal to me. So then I go back to my journal and I write down what it was. Like, what stuck out to me? And I have a highlighter in my Bible, and there’s just always something that sticks out in a new and different way. It could be a verse, it could be a whole book, it could be a whole chapter, but there’s always something. And then I write it down, and then my last prompt is, Lord, what do you want me to do with that?
Not why did you reveal that, but what do you want me to do with that Lord? What’s my action item from here? And that’s how I have clarity of how to move forward in that day.
RORY (32:14)
So you’re literally having a conversation with God. Every day. Asking, what do want to reveal to me? Then you look at the Word, find the answer, and then you record the answer.
AJ (32:26)
That’s
the hour. And so it’s not like I’m reading scripture the whole time, but maybe 20 to 30 minutes of that time is like in the word reading. And I just look for guided plans. I’m not trying to figure it all on my own. I find guided plans, read through a Bible in the year. I’m doing a deep dive in a certain book, whatever it is. I find plans and I follow the plan. But here’s what I would say is important if you’re faith curious or you’re a follower. It’s like, if you go, he’ll always show you something.
And it’s always something that you need right then and there. And I just always need something. ⁓ There’s always something to learn. There’s always something to be shown. But that’s how I start my day. So my Monday routine is really important to me. My morning routine is really important to me. And then the third thing. ⁓
RORY (33:09)
hold on. So before
we get to the third thing, feel like, ⁓ forgive me, but I got to do a shout out here for the Eternal Life podcast. if any of you, if you struggle, if you’re a very logical, analytical person like I am and you struggle with faith, ⁓ that used to be me. I was a skeptic of faith and specifically Christianity and didn’t, I just struggled to believe that somebody had performed miracles and walked on water and raised from the dead. ⁓
And over 20 years, I put a lot of time into studying the history, the archaeology, and the logical and academic evidence to support the Christian faith. And I consolidated all of those findings into a free podcast called Eternal Life, Seven Questions Every Intelligent Skeptic Should Ask About Jesus. And it’s not meant to convert you. It’s just a presentation of the logical evidence that I found that is how I became a very devout convicted
believer, not on a spiritual encounter, but through a deep logical exploration. So you can check out the Eternal Life podcast if you or someone you know is like, know, faith curious but struggling with some of that. so back to number three.
AJ (34:25)
I
think more than anything, ⁓ not more than anything else, but I would say one of the things that has been most revolutionary in my life that I really truly underestimated the power of more than anything else. Like I didn’t underestimate the power of spending time with the Lord or having a good schedule. I didn’t underestimate. I knew that was important. I just had to make time for it. What I truly underestimated more than anything else was the importance of diet.
and physical fitness. And I always, I just don’t have time for that. And it’s like, now if I don’t make time, I feel the impact. Like I was really blind to how important it was for me to have a physical release of stress. And that looks different for all people.
RORY (35:11)
So this
is something we’ve learned about you together in the last couple of years. We didn’t know this about you. We knew this subconsciously, but we didn’t bring this into our consciousness about you, which you are a high energy burner.
AJ (35:23)
Congress.
high energy
burner which means if I do not have intense physical movement all my stress I tell I tell my kids I’m like ⁓ what’s his name shadow and Sonic if you’ve ever seen the third song yeah he’s got chaos energy and he runs around ⁓ chaos energy and that’s me I’m shadow from Sonic unless I release it and so I have to figure out it’s got to be a very brisk walk it has to be hot yoga it has to be punching a bag or playing
RORY (35:41)
of Sonic 3.
AJ (35:58)
intense game of pickleball with my kids. It has to be an energy release. A casual walk ain’t gonna do it. It’s gotta be an intense release, but it’s like even sometimes Roy will just look at me and he’s like, you need a walk? I’m like, I need a walk. And I’ll come back a different person. It’s like, what happened?
RORY (36:13)
Well, because because because I’m the opposite, right? It’s like yoga for me. I want a nap, right? I want a massage. Like I’m completely
AJ (36:21)
That’s
why like, whatever it is, but it’s still a physical release. I think that’s what people have to realize. Yours could be a nap. It could be a massage. Mine is a physical release of energy because all that stress builds up. And that’s where you just have to spend time going like, what does my body need? Not my mind. What does my body need to keep up with?
RORY (36:24)
Yeah.
my
mind. And by the way, here is a little bit of physiology and that we learned this is a scientific thing. We had you had a doctor that prescribed to you that said you need to hit stuff that there is a chemical release that happens in your body when you hit things. so rather than hitting me, we got a punching bag and 10 paddle sports we got we got we have we have pickleball now, but we have table tennis,
⁓ and real tennis and just anything where you can actually like make physical contact with.
AJ (37:17)
It’s amazing how much it makes a difference and again every body physical body is different So you have to know yours, but I truly underestimated how keeping my body in check actually allowed me to keep pace with my workload And so there is like for me a physical release. It might maybe it’s a power nap. Maybe you’re like Rory and it’s like
RORY (37:38)
You’re either sloth mode or your tiger mode. Like it’s probably ⁓ one of these two. And by the way, like you see this because when guys get frustrated, this happens sometimes, they punch a wall, right? And that like when guys get super duper wound up and get so angry, they will punch a wall. This is ⁓ a biological.
AJ (37:44)
⁓ But it matters. It matters a lot.
Gotta have a relief. Gotta-
Here’s what I would tell you if it doesn’t come out and a physical release it comes out in anger It comes out in frustration. It comes out and other physical ailments. It’s gonna come out If you guys have never read the book the body keeps the score It’s like the body holds on to your stress You have to figure out how to release it to be a better healthier happier person for your team for your family and for yourself And so the physical release is a huge part of my routine now, but then also the diet part again I totally truly
underestimated of a clean diet makes me a better productive leader.
RORY (38:40)
And I want people
to understand, we’re not talking about losing weight, being in shape, looking great. We’re talking about these are the things that are essential and critical and necessary for entrepreneurs for their mental health, their spiritual well-being.
AJ (38:56)
you
Extra hydration is necessary for the brain. what I used to think, I have eight glasses of water a day. I’m doing a great job. And it’s like, you need half of your body weight in water every day. And if you have a different type of drink, in ounces, if I have a coffee, then I need to add another eight ounces to counteract that. So I watch my water intake like a boss because your brain physically needs it to be high functioning. Other things of like when I have protein,
versus other things so I never have anything sugary or carby before I have a protein.
RORY (39:33)
Carby should
definitely be a word just for the record.
AJ (39:37)
But I’m just like, these are things that I’m going like.
My mind has been blown how these changes have changed my capacity, my mental capacity, my physical stamina that I’d really underestimated. I’m like, that’s a bunch of hoopla. No, it’s not. ⁓ It’s science. It’s sciency. is sciency. sciency. And so those are things which, however, again, I would just say if you’re listening to this and you’re like, can’t be that simple, right? You have a low stress Monday, you spend some time with the Lord, eat some protein and drink a lot of water. That’s what you’re saying?
I’m like, yeah, that’s what I’m saying. And over the last two and a half years, my stress level, my work capacity, my fatigue, my energy levels, you’re gonna test to this. am healthier, better and younger at 42 than I was at 32 by a long shot because I take these things serious now for my mental, physical and spiritual health.
RORY (40:34)
Here’s how you need to think about this. If you had a horse…
Let’s say that you had a million dollar racehorse that you owned and this horse won you money every time it went out. Wouldn’t you feed it the best food? Wouldn’t you get it the best coaching? Wouldn’t you? You’d have the best trainers. You would you would do a deliberate muscle routine, physical routine. Like if you had a million dollar racehorse, you would do everything to care for that racehorse. Every entrepreneur as an entrepreneur, you are the million dollar racehorse. Like you have to care for your
in that way and when you do these things you make more money. Just the word that AJ has been saying this whole time which I love is capacity. It increases your capacity and as you increase your capacity you can carry more which means you’re more productive. It doesn’t mean that stress goes away, it means that you can handle more before stress comes and so you’re able to handle the bigger levels and you get bigger results.
AJ (41:33)
When it does come, you
know how to release it faster. ⁓
RORY (41:36)
it. right. question.
AJ (41:39)
our community question of the day. This is a reminder. We do this every week and BBG members vote on the most pressing question that they want us to answer on the podcast and then all the other members upvote it and we pick the one that was most popular. So here we go today from Jason. I’m a real estate agent and I also coach agents on building their business. My weeks are completely reactive. I’m always putting out fires, jumping from call to call, and by Friday I realized I didn’t post-con…
content once, didn’t follow up with half my leads and didn’t move any of my big goals forward. I tell myself every week that next week I’ll be more intentional, but it never actually happens. What is the single change that would break this cycle for good?
RORY (42:25)
Ugh, these questions are awesome.
AJ (42:27)
These are real.
RORY (42:29)
These are from our members, right? This is from a member. ⁓ Jason and anybody who feels overwhelmed, busy, buried, and behind, here’s what I would say is the biggest difference between ultra-performers and multipliers. This comes from my second book and everybody else. Most people believe their strategy is, I will do all of the things that other people need me to do and with the time that is left over,
I will dedicate that to the things that I want to do. What multipliers do is I want you to think of a wedge. Okay, the metaphor here is a wedge. You don’t wait until you have space to do what you need to do or what you want to do. You have to wedge the things in.
that you wanna do. And it’s not just that you wanna do, it’s the things that you need to do. You multiply time by spending time on things today that give you more time tomorrow. But the whole book and framework is called the five permissions. The permission is what this is about. The emotional permission to invest time on things now that create more time tomorrow.
Absent a conscious calculation and absent a conscious permission to spend time on things that must be done, you will subconsciously, inadvertently default.
back to the constant state of interruption and urgency and just falling victim to whatever is latest and loudest. So you have to think longer term and realize that I’m not waiting until time is available to do my priorities. The definition of a priority is that it is a wedge. It’s not an empty space.
AJ (44:12)
Yeah, so I think very tactically speaking is that whatever your big goal is, whatever the most important things are to you, that has to be the first thing on Monday before you answer a phone call, check an email before you put out any fires. That’s got to be the first thing that you put your time, effort and energy to. so I think that is really schedule management. It’s priority management of making the first thing, the first thing before all the other things. the second thing I would just add to that is if you’re stuck putting out a lot of fires, then you got to ask why, why isn’t your
putting out the fires if you have a team. And one of the things that I would just say, it’s like I was victim to the mentality of taking a lot of personal pride and being the one to put out fires. And when I realized, ⁓ if they always come to me, they’ll never do it themselves. And so I really have a strict policy now with the team. It’s like, don’t bring me problems. Tell me what problems you fixed. Don’t bring me problems. You tell me what problems you fixed today. I would rather you take action and do it wrong and we’ll fix it on the back end than you coming to me and having me fix it.
So if you’re the one fixing all the fires, you gotta ask yourself, did I put myself in that position? Have I trained my team to have me be the fixer? ⁓ Or do you not have someone, right? So I think that would be the other thing I would add. And then the third quick thing that I would just say to that is this whole concept of being reactive versus proactive. That’s a choice. Lovingly, kindly, that’s a choice. And you just have to have the self-discipline to go back and wait.
It can wait, but proactive is a choice versus being reactive. And that means that you have a plan and you follow the plan back to why I start my Mondays with planning so that I don’t live in a reactive state. That doesn’t mean there’s not unexpected fires that come up I have to get involved with, but that means I have a plan of making sure the main thing is the main thing. And that takes me three hours every Monday.
RORY (46:04)
Yeah,
this
ability to prioritize is the hard work of being an ultra performer. It’s just like, you know, you have to lift weights. If you want to build muscles, you have to learn to block and protect the things that multiply time. If you want to become a multiplier, it’s not easy. It is simple, but you just got to do it. So if this episode has encouraged you and you believe it’s going to help you think about someone in your life that maybe could have a little more peace, share this episode with them and let them know there’s some tactical insights here that can hopefully help them on their
entrepreneurial journey. As always, if you want to talk to us about how our team can help you implement and execute and support your journey and applying all of these things that we teach on the show, go to freebrandcall.com forward slash podcast, freebrandcall.com forward slash podcast. We’ll see you next time on the Wealthy and Well-Known Podcast.
AJ (46:57)
y’all you gotta learn how to prioritize and right now you need to prioritize hitting that subscribe button so you can learn more stuff like this
RORY (47:06)
And if you need a physical energy release, hit the subscribe button right now. You’ll feel much
AJ (47:11)
Of course, it’s science.
WWK Ep 016: YouTube in 2026: How Smart Business Owners Turn Content Into a Business Asset
Sean (00:00)
it this way, competition is highest for low effort content.
Rory (00:04)
Say that again.
Sean (00:04)
competition is highest for low effort content or lazy content.
Rory (00:10)
Did he just
call me lazy? I’m pretty sure. Wait, can we rewind the
today we have one of the most sophisticated advanced YouTube experts in the world and one of my best friends, Sean Cannell. Back on our podcast, we haven’t had him here for a while. We’re gonna talk about why smart business owners should be investing in YouTube to create an asset that really grows their business and what smart YouTube operators are doing in 2026 to build their YouTube channel. Sean has channels with over a million subscribers.
had over 100 million views. He is a multi seven figure entrepreneur and has long been one of the OG original experts on YouTube specifically. He wrote the book YouTube secrets years ago, which has been revised and expanded. We’re glad to have him here in the studio, buddy. Welcome back. ⁓
Sean (01:07)
Rory Vaiden, fired up to be here.
Rory (01:11)
So we’re going to talk about my YouTube woes as we do about my frustrations with YouTube and why we’re not doing it right. And you’re going to fix me. You’re going to you’re going to fix us. ⁓ I want to start with the year 2026. How should business owners mission driven messengers for our community? How should we be thinking differently about YouTube in 2026 than maybe we’ve thought about YouTube in previous years?
Sean (01:40)
I think the big mindset shift is that YouTube is not just a content platform, it’s a business asset that can lift everything else that you are doing. YouTube is the town square of the internet right now, over two billion visitors every single day. Two billion?
Rory (02:04)
That’s globally. Yes, that’s like a fourth. That’s like a fourth of the planet.
Sean (02:08)
Yeah, and that’s not monthly active users. That’s daily consumption from individuals on YouTube. YouTube is the town square of the Internet. And the YouTube CEO recently came out and said that over 50 % of consumption on YouTube is happening on television screens. YouTube is the number one platform consumed in ⁓ U.S. living rooms bigger than Netflix, bigger than Peacock, bigger than Amazon Prime. So YouTube is the town square of the Internet and it’s the everything platform. People are going for sports,
for entertainment, for music, but also for business, for education. So personal brands, coaches, service providers should really be taking YouTube seriously.
Rory (02:49)
Okay, so you say it’s a town square of the internet. Tell me, I wanna talk more about that. So why do you say that? I know we’ve talked over the years since we’ve known each other about, you know, there’s this war for attention and all of these platforms and tech companies are fighting this war. And you seem to think that YouTube has like won the war?
Sean (03:10)
I think I mean if you think about the biggest players, the only platform that has more users is Facebook. Facebook is still huge. But second with users is YouTube. But YouTube is actually bigger in terms of just total distribution and consumption. Everybody’s going there. And this would include YouTube TV. But people are going there for sports. They’re going for news clips. They’re going for a summary of what’s happening in the world. It’s like the center of culture. So whether you’re watching music videos.
or commentary on culture, cultural events, whether you’re going to learn something. It’s like 75 % of people go to YouTube to solve a problem, whether they want to fix their dishwasher or they’re trying to figure out how to increase sales or master marketing or learn the latest news about AI and anything that’s happening in the world will get repurposed to YouTube. You know, if people are watching the Super Bowl, a lot of people watch it for the commercials. But what ends up happening is the
benefit extension of YouTube is the replay. can go back and watch your favorite commercials on YouTube. You can go back and consume really anything you want. It’s where collaborations are happening. Podcasts are blowing up and being distributed across platforms. Netflix has their recent play where they’re going to be getting into the podcasting game, Spotify and all of that. But YouTube’s at the top of the pyramid in terms of distribution of content, consumption of content. And so
established an influential presence on YouTube is one of the most valuable assets a business could have. Not easy to build, but if you have that kind of influence, you’re right at the center of the conversation.
Rory (04:53)
So what does that mean to
think of it as an asset? just like, you know, my YouTube channel isn’t just like, are you saying that basically, my YouTube channel isn’t just a traffic source? It’s like, basically, like intellectual property or anything else that we would build as a company that’s like a core integral part of the business? Is that the shift you’re talking about?
Sean (05:14)
Yeah. And I mean, I think if we were to go back a few decades, ⁓ a prime time spot on television, ⁓ seven or eight PM when you’re going to watch Wheel of Fortune or Jeopardy or that new spot would be the pinnacle of value. Like not only what show could get that spot, but you would have the attention of the world. There’s a lot. There was much fewer options for watching TV and consuming that content. Now, YouTube gives anybody access
to the game to actually have, you know, a show, a brand, a presence. And if you establish your subscriber base, your viewer base, and someone knows you as the go-to source for information, and by the way, in sub pockets, you know, I know you’re a genius when it comes to being able to take like just a small audience and monetize it in a big way. And so to plant your flag on YouTube with what do you want to be known for? What’s your expertise? What are you an authority on? That is
compounding influence.
Now I don’t want to over ⁓ simplify that like it’s not easy to build, but what is it worth to have a brand on YouTube like Cody Sanchez or Alex Hermosy? Those are kind of a one entrepreneur type channels. It’s absolutely prices priceless. I would think that out of all of their social platforms, YouTube is their most valuable asset. That’s why individuals like that will invest six figures or more in multiple team members ⁓ to produce content every month.
and weekly on YouTube. And so it’s a business asset. It’s growing media and out of all the media platforms, YouTube is the leader. So if you want to plant your flag in media, plant your flag in YouTube.
Rory (07:00)
Yeah,
so here’s something that you and I are super aligned on ⁓ the difference between evergreen and viral. It’s also I think the difference between making ⁓ selling something once versus doing like recurring revenue revenue or doing launches versus Yeah, doing recurring and we’ve built our whole business around evergreen, recurring revenue, and not like a launch but just a steady growing snowball. And I’m looking at where we are today as a company going I’m seeing a lot of my friends
in a frantic mode where they’ve been launching this and that kind of course. And like they, they don’t have a sustainable thing in a world of AI. And I’m going, that is a bet that we made a philosophical play that we made about evergreen. And when it comes to YouTube, you’ve always been a fan of it’s not about going viral. It’s about
Evergreen. So explain the difference there for people about what what is that philosophical shift between viral and evergreen? Why do you have that stance? And how should that shape what we’re doing tactically on our channels?
Sean (08:14)
Yeah, there was a study done about the half life of content and ⁓ it revealed that if you post something on Instagram, the half life, it depreciates over about two days that the reach of that post will probably end in two days. And that’s very similar to a Facebook feed or a TikTok feed. Whereas on YouTube, the half life was over 10 days. And that’s just for your average video. The powerful thing about YouTube though, is if you post content that
gets into the algorithm and gets into search and discovery is you can post videos that are watched for weeks months and even years to come ⁓ creators reported established YouTube creators that over half of their monthly views comes from older content
So I like to look at YouTube like a content library, whereas the other social media platforms are content feeds and you have to constantly be putting something in the feed because everyone’s scrolling past past it. A lot of other platforms, people open up their phone and they just see what comes to them. Now there’s massive opportunity on these platforms because you can get reach, you can go viral. One post could get you a lot of exposure exposure and you know, get you business. But I also think of it as the
social media hamster wheel a little bit like you’re constantly posting and
Rory (09:37)
how it feels.
mean, that’s how it feels is just like you’re just constantly just cranking out content of like, feeding this machine. And then it disappears. There’s some ways that we’ve gotten around that. Like basically, the way that we think of it now is is like our Instagram feed is just a it’s just a test environment, where we’re going to post 10 videos. And then we see which one performs and then we’re just going to put money behind the top performer. Yeah. And so that’s a way to force the
the evergreen value of that video, but it’s costing us money. The difference on YouTube is like, it’s kind of like, I think of YouTube as almost like a fine wine, right? It’s like, if you get a great video, it gets better over time and it doesn’t reach the pinnacle. It kind of spikes, comes down, but then it climbs up and then it becomes like truly a long-term asset. That’s kind of what you’re talking about.
Sean (10:30)
It is, and I think
it also is two different mindsets and one requires more patience and that’s YouTube because it could be slower in the beginning, but compounding months and years later, whereas other social platforms give you more immediate ROI. So if we’re chasing dopamine or we’re just chasing immediate business results, many entrepreneurs could feel like, I get better results on Instagram. Like today I saw that the reach of the posts or the views on the post was a few hundred views or a few thousand.
You give that immediate call to action to comment or click a link and so you go great I posted a reel and I got five leads, you know I got 50 people that were interested and maybe I posted a YouTube video and it’s like watching grass grow like the view seems slow not a lot happened But if you post a good YouTube video, that’s well crafted that’s intentionally positioned the that can become an asset where
six months later, that video is continuing to get views, get distribution to the right audience, that YouTube algorithm, the YouTube algorithm is helping you discover and get that video to. Now you go, okay, that video took some energy and I spent some time figuring out the title, the positioning, I put out some quality content, but I’m not even posting content and my older videos in my library are bringing me new business. That’s why I’m obsessed with YouTube.
most leveraged platform for entrepreneurs that use it well.
Rory (12:04)
The other thing
that you’re kind of tapping on there that I want to really double click and deep dive on is we’re big, you know, big, big fans. mean, one of the core things in this book is trust must take place before there’s a transaction. Yeah. And to go, you might get more views on Instagram, but if that’s a 60 second reel, that’s not the same. It’s not an equivalent view as somebody who watches eight minutes
minutes of a YouTube video and certainly not 60 minutes or 40 minutes of a YouTube video. walk us through that dynamic. This is another place where even though you and I kind of live in different universes that overlap, like we have a lot of philosophies that overlap. And I think this is one that I think a lot of people don’t understand about it’s like not all views are created equal a YouTube view is worth way more than an Instagram view. True or false?
Thank
Sean (13:05)
True.
I think what everybody needs to understand is Google’s 7-11-4 rule. And what that…
Rory (13:12)
Never even
heard this before.
Sean (13:14)
Yeah, so this came out a few years ago, but it matters more today than ever before. And what it revealed was that to generate a sale, to generate a conversion, you need seven hours, 11 touch points across four platforms. Seven hours, 11 touch points, four platforms. So that could be seven hours of people consuming your content, seeing you, being aware of you. 11 touch points, it could be all on YouTube or it might be watching a YouTube video. They might see an Instagram reel. They’re reading your emails. They’re engaging with you in
And for platforms could be Instagram YouTube, but it also could be email, text, any other touch point and a book.
Rory (13:55)
a speech
like in our world. It’s like the book, the speech, the email, then they’re on a webinar and then they’re in free call and then and then they’re like, Yeah, I’m in podcast.
Sean (14:00)
Yes, the fee.
So when I think about, I’m thinking about that number seven, seven hours. So how long does that take if they’re consuming just a seven second vertical video or even 30 seconds? And then the other problem is that most of the times when people are on these platforms like Instagram, they’re seeing you but they’re swiping and they see something else. They see a travel video, something humorous, they see a little bit of business content and they’re kind of in this more passive what’s interesting, maybe they follow
Whereas YouTube has an entirely different level of intent. People go to YouTube often times to learn or to lean back a little bit to click play on a video podcast but then they’re you know doing dishes or driving in their car and so they’re there to learn they’re there more serious especially for your community you know we want to learn level up.
⁓ and listen to deeper content, like a video podcast. So that’s priceless attention and you can get to seven hours much more quickly. The author of the book influence also wrote the book pre-suasion. What’s his name? Chaldini. And so.
Rory (15:14)
Right there on
the shelf. Yep.
Sean (15:19)
Yeah, imagine that it’s, you what kind of conversations and how are you demonstrating your authority, your expertise, your personality, your values before a sales conversation even takes place. So YouTube really accelerated.
Rory (15:33)
And
in a world of sales, I would think of that as just like, you know, we talked about buying lines, which is like how far on this path does someone need to go before they buy and it’s like, you to all of this content is doing that work of like, we don’t have to meet in real life because it’s pushing them along the buying line. And certainly those said that’s what the seven hours is basically. Yeah, is what you’re saying YouTube is pushing them further faster. If you get that view there and you can hold them, like you’re pushing them towards a sale faster.
Sean (16:01)
Yeah, and there was a deep study done by the software platform called one out of 10. It’s a YouTube optimization software. One out of 10 means ⁓ like your top performing video out of your last 10 uploads on YouTube. They studied 52,000 channels and they studied all these different metrics, including title length, thumbnail colors. One of the things they studied was video length. And in 2026, they found that videos outperform in terms of
in two categories. If it’s long form videos, one was between 15 and 30 minutes. That’s a good range of a video length. As soon as you cross 30, they call this the dead zone between 30 and 60. Not that that’s bad, but it’s kind of like, it’s not, you know, under 30.
Rory (16:49)
It’s
like a point of diminishing returns.
Sean (16:51)
Yeah,
under 30 is like, yeah, I could do that on my lunch break. I could, you know, catch that in between. You know, I don’t know if I have time to watch a 45 minute thing. I might have to watch that in multiple parts. And so 15 to 30 minutes was outperformed by like 12 % in views. And then the other one was ultra long. It started to rise again after an hour and at 90 minutes or even two hours video started to outperform as well. And this has been established for a long time with
kind of, you know, the Joe Rogan podcast and now diary of a CEO and all of these ultra long podcast conversations that are taking 90 minutes, two hours. And I think one of the reasons those ultra long videos are working really well on YouTube is because if someone sits down and is interested or turns it on passively, you’re just getting so much watch time that the YouTube algorithm rewards that with reach because they want time on platform. They want people dwelling on the platform. But the big idea here,
is think about how much trust can compound when someone is interested in a topic, they click on that conversation and they spend 90 minutes, two hours, two and a half hours, which people are doing, especially if that’s what they’re interested in. They wanna go deep, they wanna have an expanded conversation on that. And just one two hour episode and you’re a third of the way to your seven hours of someone really spending significant time with you.
Rory (18:16)
this this this is something I think that mission driven messengers and experts need to understand one person watching an hour long podcast or like a video podcast or or reading a book in our case that would be like four hours is worth way more than 1000 people or even 5000 people watching a 60 second reel. Yep. And I think that’s what
Sean (18:35)
Yeah.
Rory (18:46)
people don’t understand they’re chasing the like the vanity of I want 5000 views. And they’re trading that for not understanding that one person who goes deep with me is more valuable. And that’s what you know, when you say we’re geniuses at making money from a small audience. It’s because it’s exactly that it’s like we have a very specific audience. But man, if they’re an expert of any like a speaker author coach,
they get into our universe and they just go, my gosh, we are there are people. And so we build a lot of trust quickly, but we don’t reach millions and millions and millions of people. And I think that’s the big mental switch that a lot of expert specific creators need to really think about and understand. So
Sean (19:33)
Agree.
Rory (19:35)
Now let me complain about YouTube. so so here’s the thing that people always said, just be consistent. Just be consistent. Just keep pushing. You you say just push record, just push record, right? And I’m a huge, huge fan of it. We’ve been pushing record. And we’ve been publishing every week on YouTube for seven years. We’ve got 9000 subscribers. Now I’ll be the first to admit we’ve not we’ve not prioritized it as the most important thing in our business. It’s
pretty, it’s been pretty low on the list. So there’s no doubt that that is, you know, your results reflect your effort to some extent. But at the same time, I’m going, we’ve been putting videos up for seven years. We’ve never had one pop off ever on YouTube, with the exception of my TED talk, which went, you know, massively viral, but that was on their channel, not on our channel. Right? ⁓
Now, I’ve had massive success being on podcasts like yours and like Ed Myled and Lewis and other Cody Sanchez, these other shows that I’ve been on. I was on Cody Sanchez podcast. She’s a client of ours. And so I think it was like a year ago, we were on a show. We had like four sales last week from her.
from a video that was published a year ago to what you’re saying. So I’ve had lots of success with them. So clearly they’re doing things that we’re not doing right. But the idea that you can just keep, you know, just keep going, just keep consistent.
it kind of at least feels to me in a discouraging way like that’s not really the truth. And in some ways you go, well, we still have 9000 subscribers. I mean, that’s not nothing. But it’s not, you know, when I look at the return on investment for the time that we have put in, and it’s hard to measure because it’s like, well, how many of our sales have come from people who, you know, of those 9000 who sat and watched several hours of video? I don’t know, like it’s a little bit tough. But so anyways, what do you say to some
somebody who’s like has been publishing and has been doing it is not not getting the not seeing the results yet.
Sean (21:43)
Yeah, well, I think, especially in 2026, we have to face the brutal reality of success on YouTube, and it’s this. 20 million videos are uploaded to YouTube every single day.
Rory (21:56)
20 million a day, but there’s 2 billion people every day going there. Yeah. But of course, Mr. Beast takes like half of that.
Sean (22:04)
And
so when I hear 20 million videos uploaded every single day, that’s a big pool to try to crack through the noise and stand out. I think the key though is you just got to get into the top 10 % of content.
You know, I heard an old Brian Tracy, the sales legend and you know, leadership ⁓ quote that said, you know, if you’re in the top 10 % of salespeople, you’ll get 80 % of the results. And if you’re in the top 2%, you’ll get, ⁓ you know, disproportionate returns. So put it this way, competition is highest for low effort content.
Rory (22:42)
Say that again.
Sean (22:43)
competition is highest for low effort content or lazy content. Now, I’m not saying that anybody who’s putting effort towards YouTube is being lazy, but those that are rising.
Rory (22:55)
Did he just
call me lazy? I’m pretty sure. Wait, can we rewind the tape? Did you just call me lazy?
Sean (23:01)
⁓
If you compare your average entrepreneur that’s posting on YouTube to those at an elite level, your average entrepreneur is maybe thinking about sitting down to have a podcast, maybe not doing a ton of preparation. They haven’t planned a real strong angle or title at the beginning. The thumbnail is maybe just a little bit of outdated. It’s a little outdated. It’s not really best practice. Those micro details aren’t really thought about. The hook, the opening, the first not
just three seconds, but what are the first 30 seconds? What is the entire opening of the video? How’s the video structured is, ⁓ has the content been edited at all to trim the fluff? Your average entrepreneur is not doing any of that, anything like that. They might just be, you know, they’re experts. They’ve got good content, but they are also maybe invested. very busy. So they spend, if any prep time, they spend five minutes thinking about, well, what’s the title? How am I going to position this?
Well, what are the elite doing? The elite are sitting down and they’re spending 10x more time on video packaging. So if you’re average entrepreneur
Rory (24:10)
Another word for that could be planning.
Sean (24:12)
planning, but they’re sitting down and your average entrepreneur didn’t even think about the title ahead of time, you know, isn’t putting a lot of energy in the thumbnail and then then into the topic itself. But the elite are sitting down and saying, okay, what actual topics are hot right now? What are the highest pain points that my audience has and how could I position that? What are even some of the best practices that are happening? One of the main practices of
elite YouTube creators is studying outliers.
is looking at channels in your niche and in your topic or even just adjacent. It doesn’t have to even be setting other business creators. You’re looking at formats. For example, one of the formats that is known to go really viral is I tried Andrew Huberman’s morning routine for 30 days. I tried X for a week. I tried Facebook ads. I tried chat GPT ads because they’re adding an ad product that you can now do pay
advertising inside of chat gbt. ⁓ I tried chat gbt advertising for seven days. Parenthesis shocking results. So now now we’re at a strategic topic level maybe tapping into the now with chat gbt. You’re still tapping into a paid ads thing you maybe want to attract others in terms of marketing. That’s topic research. Then you’re thinking about video formats you’re thinking about the title and then that that right there is going to inform the structure of the content and how it’s
Positioned and it’s gonna take more energy to where you maybe came up with that concept You didn’t just sit down and record a podcast and riff on something you Reverse engineered the idea and then did an experiment for seven days and then turn that experiment into a video and then that video got 55,000 views a hundred and sixty seven thousand views Which would eclipse the entire view count of a lot of people’s channels that start on YouTube because they spent that much more time
on the topic, the title, the thumbnail, essentially the concept, the energy invested in the content itself. Now, here’s the thing, listening to that, many people might count themselves out and say, well, I mean, yeah, I don’t have time to do that kind of work or effort on YouTube.
Rory (26:34)
particularly
when you say that inside of the same breath as saying YouTubers a long term play. It’s a long term asset. It’s not something that you put you do. You sit down today, you do this for a thumbnail and tomorrow a bunch of money shows up. That to me, that’s the conflict of like the entrepreneurs going, you know, the analogy we always use as we say, you’re it’s like you’re being chased by a bear to create revenue. Like you have to just it’s like I have to have enough revenue to pay the people and like keep keep the lights on around here. So
So I have to balance, I have to balance planting seeds while being chased by a bear. YouTube to me feels more like seeds that you’re planting that will one day grow up and be, you know, provide a layer of protection from the bear. like right now it’s just a seed and I’m like running around being chased by the bear. So how do you afford the time and the money to do that?
Sean (27:30)
I mean, think there’s entrepreneurship always comes down to ⁓ one of two things. You either have time or you have money. Like when you’re just starting out, you might not have money, but you also, you’re a lot more lean, lower overhead. So what can you invest in it? Sweat equity. So you invest time in YouTube to say, okay, I maybe I still have my core business. Maybe I’m on sales calls all day and I have fulfillment, but if I want to invest in this long-term play, I’m building up my YouTube channel with sweat equity. But a lot of individuals listening to this,
they have money. So the mindset shift would be, ⁓ I heard Dan Sullivan say something once that if you have money and you have a problem, you don’t have a problem. And so it’s making the decision.
Rory (28:14)
You have
enough money to solve a problem, you don’t have a problem.
Sean (28:17)
You don’t have a problem.
So so then you know, you’re asking yourself who and not how I want to invest in YouTube who which would be a strategic hire or working with an agency or an individual that you could bolt onto your business to help you do the heavy lifting of YouTube invest those dollars and They could sit down. They’re doing that packaging for you. They’re working
Rory (28:42)
with
title, topic, thumbnail.
Sean (28:44)
Yeah, they’d mind your genius mind your topics. They’re aware of the broader YouTube culture. They’re aware of the research tools you work with them. They’re helping you do all of the above and still allowing you to sit down and just do your genius. But they’re maybe going to restructure things outline, you know, I’d even say scripting, you know, the greatest YouTube videos again are spending just a lot more time period and planning that out and scripting or outlining the content. Again, that sounds like a lot of work, but if anything,
could just be structure like okay talk to me you know deliver what’s what’s some of your core genius what are your core frameworks what are some of you okay we’re do this here’s how we want to outline this let’s work on the hook of the video let’s think about how this thing is gonna be structured
Rory (29:28)
Which
by the way, just to like…
go meta on people, you and I did this, like you’re I’m going to be on your show right after this. And you were like, Okay, what’s what’s what’s the what’s the title of this episode going to be? Yeah, it was actually it was it was kind of like, what’s the topic? Like, what’s a meaty topic we could do? And then it was, okay, what sexy title? Could we come up with that you can see on a thumbnail? And then it’s like, okay, then how do we open this? How how do we open it, you know, with the hook? And then what’s the talking
points that we’re going to go through. So you’re actually practicing what you.
Sean (30:03)
And that would be, mean us working together for these episodes we’re gonna shoot together was about a 30 minute conversation. A 30 minute conversation with somebody that has that expertise. And that would be tapping into the famous who not how framework. Like who could you work with? And you know for listeners they could jump right in and if they just started talking to chat GBT a little bit ⁓ on a basic level, that’s gonna get you a lot further than you would normally. Like okay here’s what I wanna talk about, thing one. So here’s some of the stuff I normally teach, here’s what I
talk about your I’m assuming open up chat GBT you know start doing a voice prompt talking to you a little bit about it but then you could follow up with these prompts okay what how could I package or position this and here is one of the most powerful YouTube principles that most don’t understand that you want to ask yourself how can I go more broad appeal how can I raise
That doesn’t mean diluting the topic too much, but you want to raise the broad appeal as high as possible. So we’re going to do this episode on the answer was copywriting. The thing you wanted to teach was like copywriting structure for sales. We’re having this conversation on the phone. go, that’s amazing. But a title like, you know, use this copywriting framework to make your next video more powerful, horrible title. Super.
Rory (31:26)
narrow
because people go I’m not a copywriter, this video doesn’t apply to me even though we go no these principles apply to anyone trying to generate revenue. So we have to take the topic and we have to round it out to have a broader appeal.
Sean (31:38)
We
raise it up to go, yeah, how can I go more broad appeal? Now, if we take a principle from the most viral YouTubers, the question they ask is how can this topic in video apply to at least 80 % of the population? That’s really broad. Now, I don’t suggest business owners typically do that, but it’s a really good principle to understand.
Rory (32:05)
It’s like a workout
to do like a way to exercise your brain in that direction.
Sean (32:09)
To
push it up broad appeal. So if you were to make a video just for ⁓ women, now you’re 50 % of the population. But now you’re saying, okay, how do I go higher than that? That’s why the most broad topics that could be like relationships or food or something, everybody eats food.
Rory (32:25)
always
it’s it’s money, sex, politics, religion, food, relation. mean, those are those are every major podcast or show. It’s like those are they’re hitting on those because they’re the most universal topic.
Sean (32:39)
Yeah, so push it up. Now, if we then get into your niche, you’re still asking how can I go up a little bit to the known felt needs and pain points and ambitions of my target audience?
Rory (32:50)
because when we do
this, we’re risking violating what we were talking about earlier, which is we’re going for viral. But now we’re risking not building as deep of trust, we’re going for width. And we’re comp, it’s like a balance between width and depth. And we have to, we, we kind of want to have more width in the title and the topic. But then once you get into the content, that’s where you kind of go a little bit deeper and speak. If you’re an expert,
Sean (32:56)
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
Yeah, to your audience. a
principle in communication I learned was, you know, you want to answer the questions people are asking. What question are people asking? Like, and then what question should they ask? Or so in this case, the answer was copywriting and a sales framework.
Rory (33:40)
what they should
be asking. That’s what they are asking. They don’t know that’s what they need. They think they need something else.
Sean (33:46)
And so where I pushed it up would be, ⁓ you know, one of the titles I think that we ultimately came up with was essentially money. How can we raise it up to money? Like, ⁓ you know, this framework will make you more money on YouTube or use this framework and then push it up even more like. ⁓
Rory (34:06)
Like the best video that we’ve done together of me on your show was ⁓ it’s all about the title was like something like how to how small creators are making millions of dollars.
Sean (34:15)
So the copywriting video we’re gonna shoot together, the title I came up with was The Psychology Behind Why Some Videos Make Money. And so, an alternative would be why some videos make money and others don’t, or the difference between videos that make money and those that never will.
Rory (34:32)
There
it is. But basically you’re going the answer is copywriting. But but the question we should be asking is how do we state the question that more people pay attention to? Which then becomes the title.
Sean (34:43)
And then what’s fascinating, which is the time. Yeah,
if you were to put even like sales professionals or really call out a niche in a title and there’s a time and place to do that, I’m not suggesting those should never be uploads, but. ⁓
anyone that’s interested in YouTube, even so this is for our podcast where we want to talk to the creator or DIY creator as well as the business owner. But if we actually put the word business in the title, it will kill the click through rate because somebody will opt out of clicking on the video because ⁓ I’m not a business owner. I don’t know if I resonate with that as much, but everybody has got money problems where they want to learn about money and they want more views or more money. we’re pushing it up. But if I’m, then you have to ask yourself, okay, it’s my target audience.
that do business owners want to know the psychology behind why some videos make money and others don’t and do creators want to know that is what they both do. So you actually have the opportunity to get more reach, but also reach your target audience at the same time. So that’s the tension to manage is how do I raise the broad appeal, still make it a sharp title with fierce clarity and ⁓
And then in the video itself, articulate. So I will articulate in that video, like, listen, if you’re actually a YouTuber that wants to earn more and really go to a mastery level on YouTube, you’re going to love this conversation. And this is also great for business owners that want to generate leads and sales. We start broad appeal, kind of qualify in there. And then that’s the difference between a video that could get 22,000 views or 200,000 views or one that stays stuck at 2000 views because of this whole packaging.
conversation.
Rory (36:24)
Yeah, so by the way, on that this is a good spot to mention. So ⁓ on some of those tactics, we’ve got ⁓ if you go to free brand training.com slash YouTube, people can watch a class from you that’s a little more into like the weeds of the tactics on this right.
Yeah, so ⁓ go check out freebrandtraining.com forward slash YouTube if you want, you know, to get more into the tactics here. so basically, high level though, we’re talking about topic, title, thumbnail. Those are the main and I think part of what part of the big insight that I’m having is going it’s not
Sean (36:55)
Yes.
Rory (37:07)
as much about the quality of the content today. It’s more about the attraction of the wrapper of like the positioning. that’s where the over indexing work comes from spending time thinking about
It’s the same candy bar. It’s got to be a quality candy bar, but we have to spend more time on the wrapper than the candy bar itself. That’s where the over indexing result comes from today on YouTube.
Sean (37:39)
think that’s one. And then I think the other thing to consider is, you know, YouTube is two things. The most viral videos to have viral videos on YouTube. You want to understand two big things. YouTube is psychology and trends at the highest level. It’s human psychology and trends.
What’s going on in the minds of people? What are they thinking about? What are they worried about? And also what’s trending? There’s a reason why AI content or AI in the title is getting so many views right now on YouTube because everyone’s worried about it. It’s the trend. Everybody’s thinking about it and it also applies to everything. So if it’s coming into our daily life, should we be adopting this in our, ⁓
service provider business. How could we be adopting it? You could say the dark side of AI that will get a lot of views. How to make extra money that will get a lot of views. ⁓ It’s replacing employees and you’re also hitting hot buttons. It’s replacing people. Should it be now debates happening in the common?
Rory (38:38)
⁓
You have emotion and you have trending topic that AI is hitting on those two things and that’s a thing. This reminds me of a great lesson that I learned from Tom Hanks. He’s not a friend of mine, but I heard him say this. He actually said this to a friend of mine and he said, the key to writing a movie that’s a hit is you have to enter into the nation’s conscience.
So all you have to do is ask yourself, what is the nation thinking about talking about? And basically, that’s like the hot that’s like the highway. And then you have to ask yourself, how does my topic come in and just catch that sort of catch that wave? And that’s exactly what you’re talking about in terms of how do you succeed in YouTube in 2026?
Sean (39:26)
Yeah. So anybody watching this right now could take the phone mount that’s on their car dashboard, put their phone up there where normally they’re viewing their GPS, turn it horizontal at themself, turn the camera on and sit in your car, which is a great audio booth by the way. And maybe, you know, somebody’s late for a meeting or something. You got 20 minutes. And if you sit down and you think about what’s happening in the national ⁓ consciousness, what are people thinking about, worried about, and you have some stuff to riff on. Maybe you plan your ideas out a little bit.
of planning, like one of our 3P frameworks is plan, ⁓ press record and then post. That’s the most simple thing. Plan first, press record and then post. So I might plan on a legal pad or my tablet if I was sitting in my car and be like,
Man, the phone calls I’ve been getting, the conversation, people, they’re worried about AI, they’re worried about it disrupting jobs. I have a few thoughts. I’ve heard a couple things that have been happening. Okay, how could I talk about that? You’re planning a little bit. Then just press record and say, okay, you might be thinking about this, this is a conversation we’ve been having. And then you post that video and with no editing and just sitting in your car.
and just sharing from the heart and maybe sharing some of your wisdom, your perspective, your thoughts. In some cases, probably why you’re not.
Rory (40:43)
while you’re ⁓
Sean (40:47)
while we’re parked
and, we’ve all seen this. We’ve seen basic low production talking head videos on YouTube that get 55,000 views or 500,000 views. And what become, what’s the, you know, difference between that video and a video that’s in a fancy podcast studio with all kinds of cameras and all kinds of production and people get frustrated because sometimes they sit down. They got, I got the fancy studio, but I’m not getting the views that missing element right there can be the timing, the topic and tapping into
trends and what sometimes a mental barrier to that for business owners is like, well, I don’t want to just cover trending videos. Like is that trending, you know, tick tock?
Rory (41:27)
Well, so
I was gonna I want to ask you about this. I need you to coach me on the limiting belief that I have I know I’m aware that I have this and I have a hard time letting go of it because I actually struggle with this is I don’t want to be the pandering
vanity seeking person and and this is why this is one reason I never post when people die. I have a emotional struggle where you know, it’s like Kobe Bryant just died and everyone and it’s like I know that’s gonna get tons of views. I know that’s gonna get tons of engagement. I feel like it’s cheap.
and inauthentic, even if it is authentic. It’s like, even if you were the biggest Kobe Bryant fan in the world, right? And so it’s like, every time a celebrity dies, people post about it. And I’m like, is that’s what I think of when I think of?
the trend AI is that way right now we’re using AI in our business I guarantee we are implementing AI more than almost every person on YouTube is talking about it. We’ve built 40 bots for our community like you’re talking about the topics we have bots that just analyze the and it just gives it to them and all of their brand memory is stored if they’re using our bots you don’t have to give the context it already has all of your context it knows your model and who you’re going after. So we have bots that do that but I have this problem with going
yeah, I’m just gonna go on every day and be like, here’s what happened in the world of AI for personal brands. I know that would perform. I struggle doing it because I don’t know, I guess I just have like a distaste for like the amateurness of it. And yet I also am frustrated with going, all of these people are willing to do it and they’re just riding the wave and they’re just and they’re taking off. It’s why I got out of ⁓ traditional radio. I used to be on traditional radio and that’s all they wanted to talk about. Here’s the top news.
topics today. And I’m like, why are we talking about this? Because everyone’s talking about it. I’m like, I don’t care about any of this stuff. It’s actually why I got into podcasting because I was like, I want to talk about more meaningful things. So anyways, coach me through that. How do I reconcile that?
Sean (43:39)
To me it sounds like you just coached yourself. I think that that limiting belief, you’re self-aware enough to understand that. I mean, all I could add to it is a mission-driven messenger.
without compromising ethics is willing to do anything to reach as many people as possible. It’s like the apostle Paul said, I’ll become all things to all people in order that I might win some for Christ. So it’s a willingness to say what’s going to be most effective. And then it’s also a letting go of any fear of other people’s opinions or any ⁓ fear of judgment and fear of somebody calling you authentic. Only you would know the truth to that. But what I can say in the seat of the conversation,
we had before you turn on the podcast. I think you do care about AI. If we isolate around AI, you do care about AI. You are doing it. It couldn’t be more authentic. It’s actually probably more important that people hear your voice on the matter than many people who are just chasing trends at a shallow level. So if you resolve any kind of internal cognitive dissonance or whatnot, and maybe realize like it’s re embracing the principle, because I think the principle of what you did on radio is pretty important. That is what gets the most views.
on YouTube. So a willingness to do what it takes. then if you have ethical lines, you’re like, I’m not I’m not going to do that because I don’t feel that that’s not authentic to me. But when it is authentic, I think you have to press past any resistance you have because you go, no, I do care about that. I’m not going to post about every person when they pass away. But I really care about this. I have something to say in this moment. You know, when Charlie Kirk was assassinated, ⁓ I don’t talk about a lot of stuff, but I ended up doing an Instagram
post about it and ended up getting 1.7 million views.
By the way, could put somebody could sit here and you were just trying to get views. No, I wasn’t. I actually had some I didn’t post immediately. I think I posted two days later, three days later. I’ve been processing it. It was very heavy. I’ve been thinking I’ve been listening to all the conversation. also realized, man, you know, this could be very polarizing. I don’t usually get political, but I felt it. That’s why I posted it. I felt it. I processed it. And then I ended up doing an Instagram carousel. I lost 3000 followers.
when I did the post, I ended up gaining 7000 followers when I did the post and it wasn’t about that. Now I’m also a good marketer so I understand what could happen but I also I didn’t know that that would happen and I actually thought that it might be more of if you will a net negative but here’s the thing above all of that was conviction above all of that was authentic conviction.
feeling like I had something to actually say and I don’t jump on most things. And some people said, well, if you’re gonna post about this, also, if you’re gonna talk about this, you have to talk about this other stuff too. People are always gonna bring you your judgment. Again, if we’re reverse engineering back from what does it take to actually get views and reach and have impact on YouTube, I think you have to be willing to do what it takes. Is. Yeah.
Rory (46:42)
And you’re saying trends
essential. It’s one of the essential ingredients to performing on YouTube.
Sean (46:49)
And most things are not problems to be solved, they’re tensions to be managed.
So it’s like, think trying to have a binary answer to that question, like I’m just not going to do trends because it could be, you know, misperceived or I personally don’t love it. That would be more of like black and white thinking as opposed to tensions to be managed. Am I just jumping on this? And then I think willing to be mistakes, willing to make mistakes, willing to try something, willing to, ⁓ you know, one week be doing it and you might look back and, and I think we have to get over that.
here.
Maybe criticism comes your way after you do jump on a trend and talk about something. They’re like, you know, Rory, I know you, I don’t think that post hit and you’re my, you know, I didn’t feel authentic. felt like you’re like, as I reflect, maybe that’s true. That’s a willingness to take a risk and willingness to, put yourself out there. But I know your community too is very purpose-driven, you know, ethics driven. So those, these are like internal frameworks to be processing what to post next. But I know we’re isolating on AI and I’m not saying AI is the only choice.
trend. No, just talk. But it’s a good case study. Yeah. Because literally the conversation we had before we pressed record was fascinating to me about what you guys are doing, how you’re doing it. And what again, what we know is that AI is trending. The avoidance of talking about something you’re authentically doing, you’re doing at a world class level that could help people, I think is a mistake. I think. And then realizing that with in the sea of sameness, whether it’s not that you can’t do like evergreen topics or old
school titles, how to get leads in your business using Facebook. There there’s just been so much of that. And that’s to step into a world of YouTube where you get views today. I think you have to be willing to talk about the now. Neil Patel, the, you know, entrepreneur and SEO expert, like really good at SEO. Smart.
Rory (48:49)
We’ve had him on the show. He’s so good. Super.
Sean (48:52)
And he made a quote, which a lot of good communicators will sometimes speak in absolutes, even though the absolute isn’t always true. But he made the absolute statement that the only thing working on social media right now is new. The only thing working on social media right now, including YouTube, is new. The good news about why YouTube will never be saturated, it’ll never be crowded, neither were social media is because new things are always happening.
We coach a lot of real estate agents and they’re like, but there’s so many other agents. Like there’s just so much competition. So other people doing it. Well, number one, not really a national association of realtors say that only 9 % of agents are posting listing videos. So it’s not as much as you think. But I think number two is there’s always something new happen happening. Rates are always changing. New home buyer incentives are always happening. ⁓ politicians are always switching. There’s always.
Rory (49:51)
Even though news stands for notable events weather and sports as you know that that’s where news comes from But really the way I think of news is it’s it’s new. It’s what’s new and I think you know, I think of it as there’s better There’s different and there’s new yeah and right right now and I think always it’s like new actually outperforms new outperforms better Mm-hmm, which is frustrating, but I think that is how it is but if you can
Sean (49:55)
That’s
Rory (50:20)
connect your better take on what is new. You know, it’s selling people what they want, giving them what they need. It’s what the apostle Paul said. I mean, it’s our five title tests of like, you know, the I want blank test. It’s part of just the tension, I think, to be managed.
Sean (50:38)
I think we’re hitting on something that’s so powerful in this conversation, and that’s this. I actually think it’s lot of the limiting beliefs and internal frameworks that hold most back.
Rory (50:47)
Amen.
Sean (50:48)
because
the fear of just sitting in your car and hitting record to talk about today, what is new is why 99 out of a hundred professionals, they just don’t do it. Oh, they kind of overthink it. need to prepare more. need to. So you hesitate when actually content that’s planned out a little bit, press record and then publish that thing is on a new topic with a title that jumps into the conversation has a
chance from taking your obscure channel that just has never gotten any reached. All of a sudden you got 55,000 views and you’re now getting awareness. I never knew about you before. I never discovered you before. What’s fascinating is I’m not saying that has to be a hundred percent of your content, but we’re asking how do you even jump into the conversation or get discovered in the first place? And then people start to explore your library and start to see the depth of your content. So the internal beliefs of, you know,
Rory (51:44)
Otherwise
you’re the world’s best kept secret, which is like a huge part of our audience of just like, because just you have amazing stuff. Nobody knows you’re there.
Sean (51:54)
Yes.
And so why do we sit in the car? Oh, well, I don’t know if I’m ready to talk about this or I might get a little bit pushback, a little bit of pushback. Or is this too political or will? And, I don’t know if I should talk about AI because some people are going to say, but what about the water consumption and what about if the machines, you know, kill us later? And there’s a million excuses. Am I ready to talk about this? What if I stumble over my words? Well, you know, there’s a million what ifs and those are those internal beliefs. And, you know, well, am I just jumping on a trend? Somebody else already did it.
a million reasons and so what ends up happening analysis paralysis and then we don’t press record so I think having a conviction based approach and having hopefully this conversation being beneficial to individuals like you know punching fear in the face and then pressing record
Rory (52:43)
Yeah, yeah, well, there you go, friends. Sean Cannell, brilliant, profound, inspiring.
Go to freebrandtraining.com forward slash YouTube, check out his free training if you wanna dive deeper on the tactics of YouTube. ⁓ I love this conversation. I do believe that all of this is a huge asset that automates trust at scale, right? That’s what we’re trying to do is automate trust at scale. There may be no better tool on the planet than YouTube. It’s certainly one of the top ones. It’s a systematic, there’s a system you can follow to make this happen. So make sure you do that. Share this episode with somebody who you know
should be crushing it on YouTube and who wants to do better on YouTube, rate this podcast if you haven’t, we would love to hear your comments and come back next time. We’ll catch you on the wealthy and well-known podcast.
WWK Ep 015: Follower Rich, Dollar Broke? The 4-Step Trust Funnel That Actually Converts
WATCH THE INTERVIEW LISTEN TO THE EPISODE BELOW Most people assume more followers means more revenue. But the real gap is not attention. It is trust. In this episode of The Wealthy and Well-Known Podcast, Rory Vaden and AJ Vaden break down why “big platform” does not automatically equal “big business,” and what to do […]
WWK Ep 014: Why You’re Losing (It’s Not a Strategy Problem)
Rory (00:00)
they’re losing and they assign that loss to, maybe this isn’t the right thing for me or maybe I’m just not smart enough or I’m just not good enough or I don’t have enough time or I don’t have enough team. And it’s like, no, you’re just an amateur playing among professionals and you’re getting beat because they’re more committed. I mean, I not be making friends there, but that’s what I think the truth
Your brain lies to you. Your brain is one of the things that holds you back from building a great personal brand. And what we’re talking about today on this episode is what are the lies and the limiting beliefs that experts and entrepreneurs have that prevent them from building a truly successful personal brand. I’m here, I’m Rory Vaden, co-founder of Brand Builders Group, joined by my wife and business partner, AJ Vaden. Let’s go.
AJ (00:52)
Yeah, like one of the things I wanna make sure we nuance is that you said, lies that your brain believes that prevent you from building your personal brand or business. Sure. Right? And so I just wanna make sure as we’re talking about this, that it’s not just a personal brand. Like these things impact your business, impact sales, impacts relationships, impacts all the things. So we’ll take it through the lens of personal brand, IE business.
Rory (01:18)
I mean, when I even say the term personal brand, I almost think of a personal brand as just a marketing engine for the business, right, for most of the people.
AJ (01:30)
I know that’s what you
think. huh. But like it’s good for everyone who’s listening or watching to make sure that you know that we have that context in that filter as we talk about all of this.
Rory (01:41)
Yeah, so,
so let’s dive in. I want to I want to ask you let’s have a conversation about what do you think based on our own experience, our hundreds of clients, and just what we kind of observe and what our data tells us is happening. What do you think are some of the biggest limiting beliefs that people think about their personal brand or their business that is really holding them back? It’s not really true.
AJ (02:08)
Yeah. And so I want to use a large spectrum of what I have noticed to be true in the world. And this isn’t just from working with, you know, hundreds of clients. This goes all the way back to childhood, to school, to parenting, to previous ⁓ employment. And literally just this week, I’m talking about my eight year old Jasper this week, we were talking about doing schoolwork. Why do I have to do that? I’ve already done it.
I’m like, you’ve done it one time. He goes, yeah, but I’ve already done it. Why do I have to do it again? Then, let’s all take it back to our school days. How many times did we say, why do I have to do this again? I already know how to do this. I’ve already done it. I already know this. ⁓ And then you think about professional athletes. Think about how many times they have to swing a bat. How many times they have to throw a ball? How many times they have to run the exact same route?
And I think that we lack a little bit of some of that in business when you parallel it to sports.
Rory (03:15)
So
you’re saying the lie that people believe or the limiting belief they have is I shouldn’t have to keep doing this. I’ve already I already know how to do this. Why should I have to keep
AJ (03:26)
I think people get bored with monotony.
We have a constant shiny object syndrome of there must be a better way. This is too easy. This is too simple. There must be a way for me to get faster other than just practicing. There must be a way for me to not have to do it over and over again. And I think that we just naturally as humans get bored with doing the same thing over and over again. And we want to keep changing it up when the truth is the more you do something, the better you get at it.
and the easier it becomes. And I think the lie we believe is that it can’t be that easy. It can’t be that simple. When we think about social media, it can’t be as simple as just post something every day. It can’t be as simple as just put some money behind it. Like there’s got to be some complex formula that I just don’t know. There’s got to be some secret. And I think we think that about sales. I think we think that about marketing. I think we think that about relationships. And I think about often, like as a parent, how many times I’m like, I know you did it.
We’re just gonna do it again and again and again and again until it’s second nature. But somewhere in adulthood, we forget the power of consistency, the power of doing the small thing over and over and over again. And we believe the lie that it’s that easy.
Rory (04:42)
It reminds me of it’s this is I think the difference between amateurs and professionals, right? I’ve heard it said that amateurs practice until they get it right. Professionals practice until they cannot get it wrong. And that really is true. Like the example that you’re using of sports, it’s like, okay, yeah, I can shoot a three pointer and make it once but Steph Curry does it so many times that it’s almost impossible for him to miss. And that is what it takes
AJ (05:07)
every time.
Rory (05:12)
to build a personal brand. It’s like you have to you have to be brilliant at the basics. You have to master the fundamentals of content creation, lead generation, sales, follow up, delivering, over delivering and renewing. If you get those fundamentals right, it’s like there is nothing else.
AJ (05:31)
think a lot of that is we believe a lie that there’s some complex formula, some hidden secret, something that we don’t know yet. And so instead of doing the thing that we do know, we try all these new things and we keep trying all these new things, meaning we never do it enough to become really sophisticated at it. And I think we see that building your business, building your brand, social media, marketing, the list goes on and on. There’s just some truth in the fun
fundamentals and I think there’s some timeless truths that it doesn’t matter what new technology is out there, the emergence of AI, all the new things. There’s just some basic truths in sales and marketing and business that are timeless and it doesn’t really matter anything that new that comes along. It’s just a new medium to do the same old thing.
Rory (06:24)
way.
Totally. All right. The second limiting belief that I think people have about building their personal brand in their business is they think I’m not good enough to do this. They look at other people. They want to do it. They want to be influential. They want to speak on the stages. They want to have people reading their books or watching their shows. They want that. But deep down, they actually struggle with believing they’re not good enough. I think, you know, the classic word for this is imposter syndrome.
And even though they may have spent 10 or 15 or 20 years becoming an expert at their craft, they still somehow struggle with like, I don’t know that I deserve to be heard by the world or I don’t know that I’m smart enough or good enough to be heard, you know, by the rest of the world. So that that’s what I think is one of the other most common limiting beliefs in our community or the people we work with.
AJ (07:22)
with. Like
how do you see that showing up? Because I think there’s a lot of different byproducts of that. But what I think this would be good of you know, for all of you who are listening up going like, well, is that me? I don’t know. So what are some of the symptoms, some of the signs that show up when this is the root? So
Rory (07:40)
So one of the symptoms that people don’t talk a lot about but that since you asked me directly I think is really, really indicative of this is there a dabbler.
they dabble in things and it kind of comes back to what we were talking about a little bit before. They’ll dabble like, yeah, maybe I’ll learn a little bit about this or maybe I’ll start a podcast for a little bit or maybe like I’ll start writing a speech or I’ll start writing a book or I’ll start writing a blog or two or you know, I’ll join a membership for like a couple months or even a year but like they’re dabbling and because they don’t
really believe it. And if they if they really believed it was possible, they would commit to doing whatever it took to make it happen. And the and the truth is, it’s not that they’re not qualified to do it is that they’re not committed enough ⁓ to do the work it takes to make it happen. And so somebody struggling with imposter syndrome is a dabbler. And they’re competing against committed ultra performers.
and they’re losing and they assign that loss to, maybe this isn’t the right thing for me or maybe I’m just not smart enough or I’m just not good enough or I don’t have enough time or I don’t have enough team. And it’s like, no, you’re just an amateur playing among professionals and you’re getting beat because they’re more committed. I mean, I not be making friends there, but that’s what I think the truth is.
AJ (09:11)
I don’t disagree with that. I was just curious. Well, I think, you know, kind of on that same lines, you could categorize this as a another lie, a separate lie, but I think it falls within this category. So I’m going to bring it up because it’s in the same vein as I think one of the reasons people ⁓
Really, I don’t know if the word dabbler is the one I would use, but I think the reason they don’t commit is because of comparison. I think a lot of imposter syndrome actually is the result of comparison.
And I think what most people do when they’re really suffering from this concept of imposter syndrome, which is basically believing that what you have done isn’t as good or as important as somebody else, even though it’s the same thing is at the root of that, like even in that definition, it’s going, no, you’re comparing yourself to someone else.
And you’re comparing your step one to someone else step 1000, your day one to someone else’s day 1000, your year one to someone else’s year 10. And they’re not comparable. And when we do that, we, what we don’t do is see all the work behind the scenes. I think that’s where we all suffer is like we see the end result and compare our behind the scenes mess to someone else’s very well curated end result.
Rory (10:20)
That’s it.
AJ (10:33)
And therein lies comparison. And I think that’s one of the downfalls of social media because everything can look so presented and it can be the end product.
We all have to remember like no one saw the camera crew scrambling behind the scenes or the amount of lighting prep or script prep or all the years of experience that it took to make that 30 second video or the amount of camera practice to feel confident when that red light goes on. Nobody thinks about that, right? Just you mentioned Steph Curry earlier, right? They see him in the game, but they didn’t see all the missed shots. They didn’t see the years and decades of practice.
And I think that’s where we all fall short of just taking a peek behind the scenes of like, why am I comparing at all?
Rory (11:21)
Yeah, that’s so good. And social media is like the perfect little capsule of this because you are literally seeing an edited, polished, perfected, highlight reel of a bright moment in somebody’s life and your feed is just filled with that. And just all the hours going into it. I saw an interview with Alex Hermosy recently, and he made a comment that I thought was really profound. said, Yeah,
the more advanced we’ve gotten in content production, the more we spend time planning and the less time shooting. He’s like, all of our time is spent in the planning. And then the shooting is just like, you know, we come in and we’re ready to go. And I thought, that’s, that’s, that’s a professional. That’s, that’s what a professional is.
AJ (12:06)
But that’s, think,
that’s the same thing in business and in sales. It’s like a great sale happens because there was immense planning behind the scenes. There was research, there was review, there was product knowledge, there was training, and then a seeming, you know, short 30 to 60 minute conversation ends well. And it’s like, wow, you’re such a great salesperson. It’s like, no, you’re such a great practicer, right? You’re such a good rehearser. You’re such a good student. You’re such a good learner. ⁓ Things don’t happen without all of that.
And so I think a lot of us struggle with this idea of I can’t do it because they’re looking at someone else who’s done all the practice and comparing them to themselves who have done none of the practice.
Rory (12:47)
Yeah, there. Shout out to our friend, Phil Jones. We’ve had him on this podcast before. He wrote a book called Exactly What to Say. And I love one of his core philosophies is the worst time to think about what you’re going to say is in the moment when you’re saying it. Right. Like, and that’s like a classic example of an amateur, like the worst moment to like think about what you’re going to do or say is like in the moment it needs to happen. You haven’t prepped. You haven’t planned like you’re
not you’re not experienced leading leading into it.
AJ (13:20)
Cause you haven’t practiced it. And this is a good reminder for all of us. No one is good. The first time you do it, no one knows what you’re doing. The first time you do it, doesn’t matter who you are. Elon Musk, Jeff Bezos, it doesn’t matter. They did not know what they were doing until they did it.
Rory (13:37)
wish we still had you remember we made one of our first products was that that DVD called speaker that showed all the clips of me speaking it was horrible. I speaking at comedy clubs and Toastmaster clubs and we had it on film. And then you could see the world championship the world championship at the end. That’s such a powerful, a powerful thing. ⁓ All right.
AJ (14:00)
So I want to add one more thing to this because I think it’s really important. What I have found internally within our company at my previous profession as a sales trainer, working with companies, working with teammates, here’s one of the biggest things that I would say about this comparison thing that just drives me nuts is that people would rather fail live in the moment with a client versus, ⁓ I guess even be open to the embarrassment of role playing with their leader.
And it’s one of the things that as a leader, I’ve always done. It’s like, no, we’re going to role play this. And they’re just like, no, I’m like, no, we’re going to roll play this right now. And it’s like, we do that with a practice interviews and presentations and sales conversations. And it’s like, why would you expect for you to be good? The first time you ever did it with a paying client. And I would just, I caution to say like, it doesn’t matter what your profession is. It’s like, it is your job to practice before you go play the game.
Rory (14:57)
Did you imagine a pilot that learned how to fly with like, with you know, the first time or a surgeon that
AJ (15:02)
We were talking about
the other day. was like, I want the gray hair man in my pilot seat. you know, it’s, don’t want the fresh new person learning all this stuff. like, no, I don’t want your new techniques. I want the old tried and true techniques. Thank you very much. But I would say the same thing. when you think about going on camera or going on a stage, like how dare you think that somebody should pay you to speak in front of their people. And that’s the first time you’ve done it. Like.
So I think there’s some humility in going like, no, like we gotta take it back to, no, I’m gonna practice like I play and we’re gonna do it right and we’re gonna do it again and again and again so that when you get on stage, people are like, whoa, even if it was the first time, because the truth is it’s never the first time. I love it. Next one.
Rory (15:47)
Okay,
I’ve got another another really big limiting belief that I think hold the people back, I want to make sure we get to it. But do you have a burning one that you want to share? Or should I just jump in and share?
AJ (15:59)
I mean,
I don’t know if I would say it’s burning, so go ahead.
Rory (16:03)
Okay, so I’m going to say this and it’s going to sound like a sales pitch, but this is not a sales pitch. Well, it’s always a sales pitch. But I genuinely believe one of the most debilitating limiting beliefs that holds people back from building their personal brand is that they are in they are afraid to invest money into their business. And I don’t just mean coaching.
AJ (16:08)
Are you sure?
Rory (16:33)
I mean, they’re afraid to invest into a nicer camera. They’re afraid to invest into a nicer logo, into a nicer website, into running ads, into hiring a team member, into paying better to get better team members. And there is this fear always with money that that entrepreneurs have, especially when they’re like really starting out, where they go, ⁓ I’m not gonna hire you for coaching. You’re just trying to take advantage of me. Or like, ⁓ I don’t really need that camera. Like it’s it’s
you know, like, it’s probably not like necessary. And to an extent, nothing is necessary. Like it’s nothing is, you know, essential going to make or break like no bit of coaching or equipment or person is going to make or break your business like you are. But every one of those decisions levels up. And when you compound the leveling up of all of those things, and I just think that people, they don’t want to invest. And when you look at the people who are winning,
they invest time and money into equipment, into education, into coaching, into staff, into personnel. Like they spend money on their business. And I think this is one of the most critical limiting beliefs that holds people back.
AJ (17:50)
Where do you think that comes from?
Rory (17:53)
scarcity around money. Yeah, it comes from comes from scarcity around money. And especially, you know, I think about me growing up somebody who didn’t come from a lot of money. When you finally have like a little bit, it’s like money is survival. And when you equate money to like survival, it’s just like you cannot reinvest because it’s like, this is my survival. And there is an evolution that happens to on the way to becoming like a wealthier person that is money is a tool.
and I use money as a tool to grow and make more money among other things. so I think…
I think we live in a world of scarcity financially, and I think there’s a lot of horrible information about money. And frankly, there are no shortage of people trying to take advantage of you and take money out of your pocket and investment schemes and crappy coaches. And so I you know, there’s a part of that that I go, yeah, there’s you, know, you get burned a few times, and you’re like, I’m never doing that again. But I think entrepreneurs actually ironically have a much
like poor people are actually the ones who are more emotionally attached to money. can say this from having been there because it’s like this is my survival. I must have this. can’t let this go. I found that wealthy people are kind of emotional emotionally detached from money. It’s like a hammer. Many they have they view it more as a tool, right? And it’s like, yeah, I’d be upset if I lost my hammer. But it’s like, it’s just a hammer, like I can go get another hammer and make it happen. So anyways, that’s I think a
AJ (19:13)
depends.
Rory (19:28)
I think that’s a big one. What do you agree?
AJ (19:30)
I just say
that there’s a couple of things that you said. It’s not that I disagree with. think there’s just some perspective shifts. Um, and I think one of them is this whole idea. Oh, I’ve been burned a few times or I’ve even heard people say, I’ll never do that again. I’ll never pay for another conference. I’ll never hire another coach because it was such a bad experience. And my response has always been, I don’t know where this came from, but it’s just like, well, didn’t you learn from that experience? Like,
Isn’t that in and of itself a great lesson of what to do, what not to do, what you like, what you don’t like, what not to do next time, who not to hire next time? Isn’t that valuable in and of itself? And I think that just comes back to the principle of there is no failing, there’s no bad decisions, there’s only lessons learned.
Rory (20:03)
lesson.
AJ (20:21)
Right. And I think if we can have that perspective shift, when we think about learning and investing into your business, it’s like, even if it fails, even if it doesn’t work, even if it backfires, I will learn something is a mentality, a perspective shift that helps. I think people try again, do it again. ⁓ and I think that’s a really important thing is, you know, yeah, like you’re going to make mistakes. You’re going to hire the wrong people. Things aren’t going to work.
Let’s just call it what it is. Like it’s gonna blow up in your face. It’s gonna backfire. Things are going to break and not work. What did you learn?
Rory (21:00)
That’s so good. mean, that also makes me think of another another key difference between wealthy people and average people financially is that wealthy people always think longer term. So
a lot of people, especially if you don’t have a lot of money, right? This was me, even as a young entrepreneur, I remember literally emptying my bank account writing a check to Darren LaCroix for a humor class that was like, it literally was the last dollars in my account. ⁓ But
you know, I think about I was like $2,000 or something for this one class. And that was that was a lot of money to me. And I go, ⁓ my gosh, I’ve made 10s of 1000s of dollars over the course of my career from what I learned in those two days. But like, when you don’t have a lot of money, you’re like, Okay, I need to put a dollar in the machine. And if I don’t get to back to today or tomorrow, I’m never doing this again. And
AJ (21:59)
What happens more frequently even is if I don’t get it back in the short amount of time frame, I’m just going to quit altogether. Yeah. I’m just going to stop altogether. And it’s like success doesn’t happen overnight and growth and change definitely doesn’t happen overnight or in a week or in a month or in a year sometimes. And it’s like, you got to have that long-term perspective. I’d say one of the things that you said, I think is important to kind of highlight it’s now we live in an age and an era where learning and improving, there’s just no excuses. Anything you want to learn is out.
fingertips literally with a clickety clack of your type board there it goes between all of the new you know LLMs and blogs and podcasts it’s like no excuses yeah that doesn’t mean it’s all credible doesn’t mean it’s all but that whole idea that ⁓ I’m just I’m not gonna invest I’m not gonna try I’m not gonna learn it’s like that’s that we’re just beyond that there’s just there’s no excuse for that in today’s in today’s world
Rory (22:58)
And
I love what you’re saying there about like, we have spent so much money on kind of crappy or mediocre coaching or crappier, mediocre, like services or crappier, mediocre, like, you know, courses or knowledge or information or tools that we bought. But it’s like, it’s it’s valuable, even if it doesn’t work, because it’s like learning. I think it was Thomas Edison who said something like, you know, I learned it’s valuable negative information. It’s like,
You have to learn a thousand things that don’t work to find the one thing that does work.
AJ (23:32)
yet.
would say it’s like I’ve read plenty of books that I don’t recommend plenty of conferences that I wouldn’t go to again. Like there’s a lot of that and I can honestly say I learned something from every single book, from every single coach, from every single conference. It may not have been a multitude of things, but at least one thing. And my approach has always been whatever I’m going to do, what’s the one thing? I don’t need 10 things. I’m not going to do 10 things. I need one thing. What’s the one thing? And I’ve been to many events where it’s like I left halfway through
a third of the way through, not because it was bad, but it was like, I got what I needed. I’m good. Right? And if we all go through with this approach of just like, what’s the one thing? What’s the one thing I need? What’s the one thing that’s a takeaway for me? And often if you just open up your mindset and just go, I don’t need a lot of things. I don’t need all the things. I need one thing that I can go and actually change or start doing or stop doing or see differently. Even, you know, a lot of times I just leave with a perspective shift.
And that is worth it to me. And so I think again, all of those are just choices of going, how do I spend my time? How do I spend my money in order to get the results that I’m looking for? And then nothing is a bad investment. Everything is a good investment because you got something.
Rory (24:49)
Absolutely. So, all ⁓ right. I want to ask you a question, which is if somebody is watching right now and they’re struggling with these three limiting beliefs that we have, we have talked about. So they basically, you know, have like the novelty addiction of like the new thing. They have imposter syndrome or they have a scarcity around money. What do think they could do in the next seven days to do a mindset reset?
you will. Like, ⁓ we’ve been there and all three of these at many times in many places. What, what would you tell to somebody if they’re if they’re struggling with any of these things, you go the next seven days, here’s what you should focus on to shake free.
AJ (25:35)
Yeah, I would say the first thing is to go back through these things, which could be the novelty addiction or what I would call this shiny object syndrome. Could be the imposter syndrome or IE comparison, or it’s the scarcity of money, which I think you can also liken it to what am I to? I think it’s a lot of that comes to I’m choosing to see what I don’t have versus what I can glean from this. And I think all of those are to say, which one do you suffer from? Maybe they’re all of them, but let’s pick one.
Right? think the first thing you got to do in the next seven days is go, where is this showing up in my life? And you have to pinpoint the catalyst of it. And I would just encourage you to pinpoint which one of those three things is really nagging at your soul, because there’s typically one of them. And then I would say, I, this is really just have some time of reflection, grab a journal, get outside and give yourself 30 minutes to go. Where is that coming from?
What was the event that sparked this in my life? Because I believe that when you can pinpoint where it started or what triggered it, now you can take control over it. Right? And I think the reason that most of us keep living in this hamster wheel of the same thing, you know, happening again and again, ruminating in our lives is because we, we don’t have control over where it started so we can rewrite the narrative.
And so if you’re really struggling from, you know, imposter syndrome or comparison, then you got to sit down and go, when did that start? Where was it? What was it? What happened that started that? Because there was always an event. There was also, there was always a moment where there was a trigger that then began this pattern in your life. And I think it doesn’t take us long. It’s just, you just got to have the time and give yourself the mental space and permission to go there.
Because once you do, and once you can identify it, you can actually start to make tangible changes. You can say like, were you compared to someone else in the classroom? Or you compared to a sibling, right? Where you compared to other people on your team that were perhaps better at you at that season in your life at a sport or, you know, school or whatever it was. And I think a lot of it is just going back to where did that start so that you know, that’s not true in your life today.
It was an event that happened and it was a lie. Cause this whole episode is about lies. These are lies. These are not truths. Those lies started when you started to believe something that wasn’t true about yourself and you got to go back and go, when did that lie start? And how can I start to speak truth over myself to combat that lie? Because it’s not who you are today. We’re believing things today that started from one thing that happened years ago or decades ago, and we haven’t been able to let them go. That’s what I would do in the next seven days.
to truly, really start to eradicate these lies from your life.
Rory (28:26)
I love that. I love that. All right. So we need to go to the community question. want to, I want to wrap up. want to give you three, I want to give you three specific affirmations or mantras or beliefs that you could use to rewrite. If you’re struggling with these, these are things that have helped me. So number one, if you are struggling with this issue of like shiny object syndrome, the mantra, I always remind myself it’s in our book. If you have diluted focus, you get diluted results. Number two, if you’re struggling with
I would encourage you, this is a quote that I think about often, it’s from Mark Twain. said, each man is my superior in some way. And therefore, I am superior to each man in some way, right? So we all have value to learn and gain from each other. Number three, if you’re struggling with scarcity around money, I would encourage you to say, money is a tool that I invest and I use it to bring me more money.
So those are three little belief patterns you could adopt or try on and see if that helps you.
AJ (29:30)
Love it.
All right. So in this community section, right, this is one of the favorite times of this episode because we get to answer a question from our brand builders group community and everyone gets to submit a question and then they vote up on which one we’re going to talk about on the show today. So let me tell you, I know this is from Derek. He says, I’m a financial advisor with real expertise. I know my stuff, but I freeze every single time I try to film content. You’re not alone, Derek.
It’s not that I don’t know what to say. I just feel, let’s highlight that word, all caps, feel like I’m going to say something wrong or look stupid on camera. My coach keeps telling me it’s a mindset issue, but that advice hasn’t helped. Is there an actual tactical step-by-step way to train your brain to self-sabotaging when the camera is on?
Rory (30:26)
gosh, this is such a…
AJ (30:28)
Such
a question and applicable to 99 % of us. I have a few, but do you want to start?
Rory (30:32)
Yes, sure.
So
To me, like everything that we teach, there is a mental part of this and then there’s a technical part of this. Since he’s saying that ⁓ he’s been attacking the mental part, I’m gonna talk about a couple technical things. Okay, so number one, most technical tip I have if you feel nervous on camera is hit record on the camera long before you actually go to talk to it. So let it just be recording and just sit in the room
⁓ and get used to like, the camera’s on and it’s like, you just, because if you have to like hit record and start talking, there’s like this pressure of this moment being on. But if you just let the camera roll and just like, the camera’s just rolling all the time, you feel less of like, okay, time to like turn on and like go into presenter mode. And you get comfortable with the idea of just, ⁓ I’m being recorded, it’s not a big deal, we can edit it after. And you’re more likely to just talk to the camera.
that you would in your normal voice and not go into like presenter mode or influencer mode. Because I think that’s the big tip here is don’t think about looking at a camera and like, don’t think about I’m talking to thousands of people, pretend the camera is like a face and talk to the camera as if it’s like a person in your normal voice. So.
AJ (31:55)
Yeah, I think that’s good. tips. Mine are very similar to that. So I’ll just kind of tag on to that ⁓ is if you have a hard time talking to the camera, it’s because you’re really talking to yourself and that’s weird and it’s awkward. So don’t talk to yourself. Here’s two things that you can do. One, literally print out a picture of your avatar or your favorite client or your spouse or your best friend or whoever, whoever you want and tape it above the camera.
And so you’re not talking to the camera, a lens, you’re talking to a person. So what we tell people to do is like literally print out, like who’s your ideal client, right? Who’s the person that you’re making this content for or what do you imagine they would look like or, you know, just have a friendly face or whatever it is, but talk to the picture. Don’t talk to the camera, talk to the picture.
And it really helps us go, okay, this is actually for a person. And it becomes less about what you’re saying to the camera and more about serving the person. The other thing you can do is use a teleprompter. Right? It’s like, if you know your stuff and you know what to say, and you just freeze when the camera goes on and your mind goes blank, that happens to a lot of us. That’s just like our nerves are kicked in. So give yourself a little bit of a study guide. So use a teleprompter. Like we have plenty of people who use note cards on stages.
Right? Like that’s a normal thing. Don’t feel like you can’t use that here. So use a teleprompter or have a postcard, like a giant poster board in the back. Like those things help. And then one other quick tool or tactic I would say that would be really helpful is if you really freeze with that, then just have someone interview you so you can have a real conversation, a real dialogue. And then you just need a good editor.
right? So that you can cut things as they need. But it’s like, have someone actually stand behind the camera and ask you the questions and then you’re talking to them. So if the picture thing doesn’t work, the teleprompter doesn’t work, turning the camera on early doesn’t work, then you just need a real life human that you can have a real life conversation with because that, that is what makes great content. That’s what the conversational tone of even, you know, episodes like this happen because you’re just talking to a real human. And so get you someone to stand behind the camera and just ask you the questions.
Rory (34:01)
Love that. I can’t resist the opportunity to do a shout out for Nashville Creative Spaces right now. ⁓ So we own a building in Nashville called Nashville Creative Spaces and we have a teleprompter in that space and a live human. And one of the reasons I’m bringing it up is because people always tell us, I booked the studio so I didn’t have to worry about the right mic and the right camera and the right lighting. But what I got most was your team coaching me through the fear of what to say.
AJ (34:13)
and a live human.
Rory (34:30)
or how to say it and also just having the teleprompter right there. We solve all that problem for you. So ⁓ you can check out Nashville Creative Spaces. And if you are a personal brand who goes, you know what, I am struggling with some of these limiting beliefs that we’ve talked about on this episode and I do need the combination, the perfect blend of ⁓ mental and tactical and I want the accountability of being in a community or even having a one-on-one coach.
Go to freebrandcall.com forward slash podcast. You can request a call and talk with someone from our team to see if you might fit to be a part of our member, mission, our community of mission-driven messengers. And we’d love to get a chance to meet you. So for myself and AJ, this is a wealthy and well-known podcast. Share this episode with someone who you think needs it and don’t let those believing beliefs hold you back. We’ll catch you next time.
AJ (35:22)
you being a dabbler right now?
Rory (35:24)
be a dabbler. Subscribe.
WWK Ep 013: Reclaiming Your Health with NYT Bestselling Author Ben Azadi
Rory & AJ Vaden (00:00)
what are we not asking? What do we not know? Or what are we being misinformed of that you think is the most universal, most general that people need to be aware of?
Ben Azadi (00:10)
is a great question because we’re dealing, all of us are dealing with this. The first thing to consider is that doctors are not trained on this philosophy of the body’s built to heal itself. So I don’t blame doctors. I blame the system. And I used to say for so many years, AJ, the system is broken. The system is broken. I no longer feel that way. It’s running and designed the exact way that it was set up. It’s a cash cow. It’s a brilliant subscription model. What we should be asking is why do I have these symptoms? Not how do I
mask these symptoms or medicate the symptoms or reduce these symptoms, but why?
the symptom is not the problem. The symptom is the gift. The symptom is the body’s check engine light. It’s the way the body communicates to you. If you got in your vehicle.
and you’re on a road trip and your check engine light turned on, thank God there’s a system in place to show you something underneath the hood is going on. Don’t just mask, cover up that light, no, pull it over, take it to a mechanic, find out what’s happening. So the question we should be asking the doctor is why? Why do I have the
Rory & AJ Vaden (01:12)
Welcome to the wealthy and well-known podcast. Y’all today’s guest is someone who is helping millions of people reclaim their health, their energy and mental clarity, starting from the inside out. Ben Azadi is a leading voice in metabolic health, a bestselling author, four time bestselling author and a New York Times bestselling author, by the way. He’s also the founder of Keto Camp. His work bridges science, mindset, faith and practical action in a way that empowers people to take ownership of their bodies.
and their lives. So if you are listening to this today and you care about longevity, discipline, and becoming the best version of yourself specifically in this new year, then this is a conversation for you. Don’t miss it. This is a time to spend on getting yourself to the healthiest state humanly possible. So let’s dive in.
Rory & AJ Vaden (02:04)
Hey y’all, we are so excited for this conversation. And I say we, I mean me. This is like one of those awesome episodes where I’m like, I’ve been eagerly anticipating this conversation because I love it when I am personally invested in a topic and I’m like, I cannot wait to see what he says about this and this and this. And you guys heard this awesome introduction of my newer friend, Vinazati. But we’re gonna be talking today about health breakthroughs.
And I think Ben is one of those people who not only has the true researched and academic approach, but also the real life personal experience of misinformation, which I think is all too common for all of us. And I think the reason I’m so excited for this conversation, Ben, is because that was me too, right? And I think that’s a lot of us. So here’s how I would love to start is just one.
Ben Azadi (02:50)
Mm.
Rory & AJ Vaden (02:56)
Can you give our audience just a little bit of background on who you are and just for everyone who’s listening, if you didn’t catch it, he’s a world renowned health expert, a four times bestselling author and host of the Keto Camp podcast, right? So there’s a lot of stuff going on, but outside of that, like what should our audience know about you as we kick off this conversation today?
Ben Azadi (03:15)
Yeah, I’m excited to be here AJ. Thank you for the invitation. you know, like you said, I’m somebody who also struggled with my health, my energy, my metabolism for a very long time, 20 plus years. And I want it to feel better. I wanted to have more energy. I didn’t want to have to rely on medication or a broken medical system. And I felt like, you know, when I, when I was in my early twenties, I felt like I was being gas lit by my doctor because I had all these issues going on 23 years old. I was very young, but I had brain fog. had, I was
I
depressed, was suicidal, was obese, I was dealing with a ton of inflammation, digestive issues. I mean, I could go on and on about the symptoms I was dealing with. I would make my appointment with my doctor like so many of us do, and I’d list the symptoms, and not once did my doctor ask me the question, what are you eating? Let’s discuss your lifestyle, how’s your sleep? It was more about, what can I prescribe for this young man? And there were some prescriptions that were recommended by my doctor, but I felt like I was too young to get on that.
and I had to figure things out on my own. And I really took a deep dive into health and metabolism. I got really excited because I started replying what I was learning and I completely transformed my health. This was 18 years ago. I lost 80 pounds of extra inflammatory fat that was hanging around my body.
I went from being physically obese and mentally obese to being physically fit and what I call a mental six pack. And I was able to transform my health. And the cool thing about the way that I did it is that number one, I’m not special. Anybody could do it too. I don’t care how you want your ages. Number two, that was 18 years ago. I kept the weight off. I feel like I’m getting healthier year after year. I’m 41 now and I honestly feel the healthiest I’ve ever felt before. And one thing that I know to be true is that God built the body
to be self-healing. There’s not a doctor, a supplement, a pill, a medication, a shot that could replace the inner physician that’s already within our 70 trojan cells. As long as we remove the interference. So I had a lot of things that were interfering with this amazing body and we’re going to discuss that today. What are the things that are interfering with your body? You remove that interference, the body will heal itself. So now, know, fast forward, I’m a New York Times bestselling author, just like you. I speak on
stages, I do keynote lectures, I speak to doctors and medical groups. I’m not a doctor myself and I’m not saying all this to impress anybody but I’m saying it to impress upon them. I’ve a lot of research, I’ve worked with a lot of people and I’ve kind of extracted what works for most people and what doesn’t work and today we’re going to decipher exactly what that is.
Rory & AJ Vaden (05:54)
You know, I love what you said is like, there’s an inner physician in all of us. And one of my, as many of you who are listening know, I live here in Nashville, Tennessee. And one of my favorite food markets has this sign. It’s called urban market. If you’ve lived here in Nashville, they have this amazing sign behind the register that says, let thy food be thy medicine and thy medicine be thy food. And I think that,
Ben Azadi (06:07)
I love that place.
Rory & AJ Vaden (06:18)
Unfortunately, at least here in America, we live in a society, at least for now, where it has been prescriptions, not inner healing. It has not been, let’s figure out what the interference is, remove it so that we can have healthy, happy lifestyles. It’s like, how many more chemicals can we find and prescribe? Which I’m curious to hear is like, how much of that is the interference? So I don’t know, we’ll have to find out. But okay, so here’s our first question.
This has been going on for 18 years, right? And I would also just second, like I turned 42 this year and this is the healthiest, fittest, happiest I’ve been my whole adult life. So for all of you who are not in your forties yet, good things are coming. The forties have proven to be a good decade thus far. But I think, I think this is the interesting thing. It’s like you were going to your doctor. I was going to a doctor for years and wasn’t getting the right information.
and there was no information in my case. It wasn’t even misinformation. There was none. wasn’t even let’s have the conversation. So I would be curious for everyone who’s listening to hear like, what are we not asking? What do we not know? Or what are we being misinformed of that you think is the most universal, most general that people need to be aware of?
Ben Azadi (07:34)
The first thing is a great question because we’re dealing, all of us are dealing with this. The first thing to consider is that doctors are not trained on this philosophy of the body’s built to heal itself. So I don’t blame doctors. I blame the system. And I used to say for so many years, AJ, the system is broken. The system is broken. I no longer feel that way. It’s running and designed the exact way that it was set up. It’s a cash cow. It’s a brilliant subscription model. What we should be asking is why do I have these symptoms? Not how do I
mask these symptoms or medicate the symptoms or reduce these symptoms, but why? What’s the cause of these symptoms? Because here’s an example. Most Americans, they buy their junk food at their convenience store. It’s a convenience store because it’s very cheap and easy and convenient, but these foods, they’re like food-like substances, they are loaded with artificial ingredients, preservatives, chemicals, rancid fats, and we eat these foods because they’re cheap and convenient, and then we get a symptom. That could be,
Maybe you have brain fog or maybe you’re starting to gain some belly fat or maybe your thyroid is slowing down. So your energy production is lower. So you just you feel off. And we’ve been trained to believe that those symptoms are the problem. I want a medication to lower my blood pressure. I need a medication to lower my blood sugar. I want to go on a Zephyg to loosen what the symptom is not the problem. The symptom is the gift. The symptom is the body’s check engine light. It’s the way the body communicates to you. If you got in your vehicle.
and you’re on a road trip and your check engine light turned on, thank God there’s a system in place to show you something underneath the hood is going on. Don’t just mask, cover up that light, no, pull it over, take it to a mechanic, find out what’s happening. So the question we should be asking the doctor is why? Why do I have the symptom? That gets you down the path of, okay, you’re eating these inflammatory foods, remove that interference, you start to produce more energy and burn fat and feel good. The next thing to consider is that here in the United States, we spend about four
trillion dollars on health care every single year. And if that was a GDP of a country, that would be the fourth largest GDP in the entire world. And what’s really interesting about that
amount of spend is that one out of every four dollars spent on health care is spent on diabetes, primarily type 2, which is 100 % preventable and 100 % reversible. It’s a lifestyle disease, but unfortunately, it’s been treated with medication. And it’s not just the diabetes, it’s the obesity, it’s the heart disease, it’s the thyroid condition. So it’s not about the symptom. The symptom is a blessing. It’s a gift. It’s about the cause. We want to figure out what’s going on.
at a cellular level inside the body.
Rory & AJ Vaden (10:11)
a ha moment of, know, symptoms aren’t the problem, they’re the signal, right? It’s like, hey, this is your alert system. Are you paying attention? And are you asking what’s causing the symptom versus just give me a medication to solve the symptom? It’s like, now we kind of have to go underneath the symptom to figure out what’s the cause of it. What do you think for you, at least in your experience, what did you learn from the beginning?
Or actually, let ask you an even earlier question, because I think a lot of people who are listening are like, I can relate to this. Where do I start? So take it back 18 years. Where did you start?
Ben Azadi (10:48)
It starts with the foundations of getting healthy, right? It doesn’t have to require a ton of money, although I’m a big fan of different biohacks and devices and all that, but it doesn’t, you don’t start there. The supplements I’m a big fan of too, but they supplement the lifestyle. So the foundations need to be laid first. need a strong foundation, right? So that’s going to be your movement, right? Moving your body. That’s where I started to answer your question. I started by moving my body, walking outside, riding my bicycle, playing basketball, doing things that I enjoy doing that it required me to move my body. Then I started
to just focus on eating whole foods. And I know we hear that all the time, eat whole foods, eat real food. But I think a lot of people, and Jay, don’t really understand what that means. I will explain that because a whole food is simply a single ingredient food. When we go to the supermarket, urban market is, I love that place, but any supermarket, is it urban or urban?
Rory & AJ Vaden (11:40)
Urban.
Ben Azadi (11:41)
When we go to any supermarket and let’s say we are on the perimeters where they have like the produce and the beef, when we look at the ingredients list of an avocado, for example, there’s not a list of ingredients. It’s what you see. You get the avocado, a potato, it’s just the potato, eggs, just the egg, the beef, the beef. But when you go in the middle aisles and you now get a potato chip instead of the potato, it’s now a processed version of the whole food.
Rory & AJ Vaden (11:59)
Mm-hmm.
Ben Azadi (12:04)
there’s 20, 30 ingredients. So a simple start is eat only single ingredient foods, move your body. That’s where I started. And then when you go from there, you start to make some progress, you get momentum. Then you start stacking things and stacking different behaviors and habits, and then you gain some serious momentum.
Rory & AJ Vaden (12:22)
Okay, I love these are two simple steps. Move, like move, right? It’s going to walk, go biking, play pickleball, but move. ⁓ Can we just pause on that one just for a second? What do you find in your 18 years of research and working with people? Like, why don’t they do that? Like it’s a simple step, that didn’t mean it was easy. Why don’t they?
Ben Azadi (12:25)
Thank you.
Right, yes.
because we want the sexy thing. We want the, you know, the ozendic, the fad diet. We want the whatever’s trending in the health world these days, apple cider vinegar, whatever it is. We want the sexy thing, but you know, sleep and movement and eating real food. It’s like, we’ve heard that before and it sounds so simple. So we don’t necessarily do it because it just sounds too easy, but sometimes, a lot of the times, little by little, little becomes a lot.
Right. It’s about getting momentum and a lot of people, especially this, you know, this time of year, we start to do make different changes and we start to throw everything into the mix all at once. Gym membership, keto diet, intermittent fasting, these supplements, and we just throw too much and we can’t, we make some progress and then all of sudden it’s just too much for the body to handle. a lot of people like the sexy stuff. They want to hear about, you know, the infrared sauna and the cold plunge. And again, I’m not against any of that. I have an infrared sauna and a cold plunge.
but those are things you add later on. The foundations are set in stone. Like this is the way we’ve been healthy for a very long time. This is way our ancestors were healthy. Once we look back at our ancestors and see what they did for the most part, we could follow suit and then get healthy and then stack those other sexy items that everybody’s looking for.
Rory & AJ Vaden (14:04)
I love that. What would you recommend? Is there a goal of for how long when you think about movement? Is it 10 minutes, 30 minutes? Is it low impact, high impact? Does it matter?
Ben Azadi (14:16)
I would start with getting daily steps each day. would aim wherever you’re at with your current level of activity. If you’re getting 5,000 steps a day, let’s bring it to 7,000. If you’re at 7,000, let’s bring it to 9,000. But once you get to around 10,000 steps a day, that’s going to be optimal. And you’re not going to get those 10,000 steps in one walk. I wouldn’t recommend that. It’s sprinkled throughout the day. These are actually called exercise snacks. And one of the best things you can do for your energy levels, digestion, for fat loss, is to go for a
15 minute walk after your largest meal of the day, which is typically dinner for most people. When you do that, it improves digestion. There’s less of this blood sugar spike from that meal. it blunts that blood sugar spike so you don’t get a crash in energy after and you get back into a fat burning state much faster. So I recommend having something that tracks your steps. I use an aura ring, but there’s so many different things out there and aim to get 10,000 steps a day. When you do that, you strengthen your heart.
you strengthen your arteries, you are able to burn fats. Walking is so underrated and if you could time it with that 15 minute walk after your biggest meal of day and do that consistently, just that alone without any other changes, you will start to see some progress.
Rory & AJ Vaden (15:31)
and I’ll tell y’all for who are listening, know if you follow me on social, you see me, but it’s like, I have an actual old school step counter, like one that clips onto your shoe. And it’s like, one of the things I learned for those of you who listening, if you relate to this, I had to see it. I was like, I actually have to see, because if I saw that I was like 8,200 steps, I’m like, oh, I’m almost there. But if I didn’t see it, I would get in bed at night and I’m like, dang it, I missed it. Versus having it on my shoe, like a weirdo, people are always like,
Is that a, you’re not, you’re not out of prison, are you? No, not a tracking device. It’s not. But it’s like, you know, I think about like, know yourself of like, are you a visual person? Like, is that going to help you? And I just, it did for me when I was trying to make some of these changes. But also I love that simple tip of just go for 15 minute walk after your biggest meal or make it a habit of like, go on a walk after every meal.
Ben Azadi (16:05)
Thank
Rory & AJ Vaden (16:28)
You know, one of things I was thinking of like, just like park the farthest way away from the restaurant, right? It’s like, don’t try to get the VIP space up front. It’s like park as far away as you can, where it’s like, it forces you to get in some of those steps if you’re gonna go out to eat. And it’s like, how can you challenge yourselves in those little ways that will compound, as you said, into the big things.
Ben Azadi (16:51)
That’s exactly it. Yeah. I love that because number one, with looking at your steps, you’re gamifying it in a way, right? You’re able to see and hit those goals and see it right in front of you and see how many steps you have, how many steps you need, and you can finish those steps because you see it right there in front of you. And that tip about parking far away and walking is a great tip. We tend to drive around as close as possible to see that open spot as close as possible to the door. No need to do that. Just park wherever you see the first spot, walk.
When you see the choice between elevator or stairs, take the stairs. These are different things that add up over time. They really do.
Rory & AJ Vaden (17:26)
Totally. And it’s like, just, again, do all the little things. It’s like, you’re working out and you don’t even realize it for the person who’s like, I can’t make it to the gym. That doesn’t allow in my lifestyle or my, it’s like, well, these are all things that help us get there. And I love that. And I love the two of just like the simple definition of eat whole foods, right? These are just the single ingredient foods. So I have a personal question for you, right? So.
I agree with this. Are there any non-single ingredient foods or any brands that you would say, have found that if you’re going to have to have, you know, a middle of the grocery store, I’ll snack that if you’re going to buy something, this is what you should do, right? These are the brands or these are the foods. Are there any that are on your like approved checklist?
Ben Azadi (18:10)
Yeah, there is. is absolutely. So there’s healthier versions of these processed foods and now they’re not single ingredient whole foods. So they’re not as good as that, but they’re, you know, if you want those as an option, especially if you have kids, it’s a good option for them as well. Lesser Evil is a good brand that’s in most grocery stores. have Siete, you have Epic. These are companies that are typically found in most commercial grocery stores. There’s a good company called Thrive Market that it’s kind of like, yeah, it’s kind of like Costco meets Whole Foods.
online membership, you pay an annual fee, and then you shop online. And they have a ton of these products that are healthier versions of processed foods. You just shop online, deliver it to your door. So yeah, there’s definitely options out there. There’s healthier ways to go about it. And know, things like bone broth, like kettle and fire bone broth, you could find that at grocery stores. So absolutely any of those brands, even though they’re multiple ingredients, they’re typically cleaner on the ingredient side.
Rory & AJ Vaden (19:04)
Yeah, I love that. I love, we have most of these brands and I love that. One of the things that, I don’t even know why I put this in place. It was literally just on a whim, but we have a policy in our house and part of my kids go grocery shopping with me when I go. And so part of like this education process is they have to be able to do two things. They have to pick foods that have no more than four ingredients. So we have a four ingredient policy.
And then they have to be able to pronounce all the ingredients. And if you cannot pronounce it, we cannot buy it. It’s like those, well, I didn’t kind of like gamify shopping and I’m like, they bring it over and I’m like, how many does it have? And they’re like five. And I’m like, oh, sorry, it’s more than four. Didn’t like to cut. Right. And it’s like, but it’s like, for those of you who have kids, it’s like, these are just small, simple ways of introducing this to them too. And then I love that. It’s like, you gotta have like what brands are trustworthy.
Ben Azadi (19:36)
Awesome.
That’s fantastic.
Rory & AJ Vaden (20:01)
And there’s so many, it’s like, if you were to look at all of them, oh my gosh, you’ve been in the grocery store for 12 hours. is, perimeter shopping is the best, I agree. Yeah, these are good of like, hey, if you’re gonna buy, these are some of the brands, check the ingredients, limit the ingredients, make sure you can pronounce them.
Ben Azadi (20:05)
It’s true. Yeah.
It is. Yeah.
I love that you do that with your kids. Another brand that came to mind is Masa, Masa chips. Masa chips, fantastic. It’s cooked in beef tallow, it’s organic tortilla, so it’s a great option for healthier chips. They also have potato chips as well, corn and potato, so Masa is a good brand as well.
Rory & AJ Vaden (20:24)
Let’s
Yeah, I have, I bought those before at like airports and stuff. And I didn’t even, it didn’t even register me to just said that I was like, yeah, I could probably buy those from a house. Yeah. Yeah. I love having like a list of good brands. okay. So that kind of leads to my next question, which is it’s so hard to discern and determine who to listen to. What’s trustworthy.
Ben Azadi (20:45)
Yeah.
Rory & AJ Vaden (20:58)
what’s a good brand, even if it’s promoted as, you know, healthy or, you know, people think, well, if it’s at Whole Foods, it must be good. And it’s like, no, not necessarily. So I guess how can people cut through some of these health trends or some of the fear-based messaging or conflicting advice? Cause it’s like, you could listen to four different people and you’re going to get four entirely different messages. How did you do that? And how do you tell people to do that today?
Ben Azadi (21:27)
It’s a big problem. We’re drowning in all this information. We used to have not enough information. Now it is too much information. We’re we’re drowning in information. We’re starving for that true wisdom and truth. Your rule was great. You shared with your kids, when you’re shopping, anybody could follow that rule. Four ingredients, you gotta be able to pronounce it. That’s great. People need to, we just need to read the labels and understand how to read the labels. The front of the package or the box is gonna have brilliant
It’s going to say like gluten-free organic, it’s going to be in Whole Foods. Doesn’t necessarily mean it’s healthy. It’s important to read the ingredients label. Follow that rule. If you can’t pronounce it, probably not a good idea. If it has a ton of ingredients, probably not a good idea. But you know, part of the other part to the answer here is a lot of people are now going on chat GPT, YouTube, they’re doing Google searches, they’re listening to the podcast and there’s so many different health experts out there, TikTok experts out there.
Rory & AJ Vaden (22:21)
Mm-hmm.
Ben Azadi (22:24)
A lot of it’s conflicting. And I think about this a lot because I feel for people because it’s like, but my nutritionist or this TikTok person said, just focus on calories, just about calories in versus calories out. And then they come across me and I’m like, don’t worry about calories. It’s about hormones and inflammation. Like, who do I believe? I always say that this is my answer. I always say, find somebody that you resonate with, their personality, their story. They make sense to you.
And go all in with that. Give it 30 days at the very minimum, maybe 60 days. Go all in with what they’re teaching. And if you see progress, you see results, stick with that person. If you see no results, maybe you regress. OK, that person’s philosophy or approach doesn’t work for you. That’s what I would recommend. You might have to go through a few people to get there, but there’s a lot of quality people teaching the right information. So I would recommend you find that person, that authority that you resonate with, and then go all in.
in
with them, don’t listen to anybody else, just that one person and see what it does for you. Maybe do some lab work as well. See what it does to your lab work and then you can kind of go from there. If it works, then continue with that person. If it doesn’t, move on to the next person.
Rory & AJ Vaden (23:33)
Yeah, I love that. And you said something that caught my attention and I wrote this down. So I want to come back to it. You said some people talk about calories in calories out and come to me and it’s about hormones and you know metabolism and it’s like so much talk about hormones right now. It’s like I think I’ve like every time I look at the bestseller list there’s a new book on hormones. Okay, I don’t know if it was just me or maybe I’m in a new season of life where it’s like my reticular activator has kicked in but I don’t feel like there was
this talk about hormones 20 years ago, 15, 10, maybe even five years ago, but in the last three years or so, there’s been this explosion of conversation around hormones at a very public, universal, everyone’s talking about it. Why and what do you have to say about it?
Ben Azadi (24:24)
Yeah, I know you’re right. wasn’t as popular five, 15, 20 years ago. It’s really common now. There’s a few reasons why. Well, number one, there’s now a mainstream message on metabolic health, which is great with, you know.
Rfk jr. Make America healthy again I know when I say that it triggers some people but there’s a conversation now being had about metabolic health Which I personally love because we know what was happening before was not working So thank God we have something that’s going to change right now and with this focus on metabolic health Hormones are one of the biggest things to focus on here our hormones Dictate everything for us. They help us produce energy. They help us burn fat They help us extend our lifespan and add years to our life our hormones need to be able to do their job
Hormones are simply these these little chemical messengers and they connect to your cells your cells hear the message if there’s not too much inflammation and then it tells your cells to perform that job. The issue is that too many people are inflamed. They have high levels of inflammation. When you have high levels of inflammation it’s like if I muted my mic here
I would be screaming at you. This is the hormones being produced or even taking hormones. But if the mic is muted, I could be screaming. You won’t hear the message. You would be frustrated. I would be frustrated. Same thing with the cells. If you’re taking hormones or you’re producing hormones, but there’s inflammation, the message is not getting through. You’re not going to get well. You’re not going to feel better. You’re not going to get.
the benefit of those hormones. So we want to reduce inflammation, right? When you do that, then those hormones get in. And that’s where all these authors and books, talk about that. There’s synergy between inflammation and hormones. And I love that this is now being talked about because it’s not about calories. Being overweight,
is not your problem. When I was obese, I never had a weight problem. It is a weight symptom. When we focus on calories, we’re focusing on the symptom. We would discuss why that’s the issue. It’s not the symptom. The symptom is the gift. Being overweight is the gift. It’s showing you there’s too much inflammation. So we don’t lose weight to get healthy. We get healthy to lose weight. When you get healthy by focusing on inflammation and hormones, the weight comes off as a side effect. That’s where the focus should be. So I love that we’re seeing these books. I love that we’re seeing
hormones trending and these different authorities or authors are talking about hormones because that’s really where it’s at when you combine the focus of hormones with the focus on lowering inflammation that’s where the magic happens.
Rory & AJ Vaden (26:50)
you said so many things that just like blew my mind a little bit. So I wanna go back. okay, okay. You said obesity is not a weight problem. It’s a weight symptom. It’s a symptom, right? And so when your body gets healthy, when your hormones are back in check and you reduce inflammation, the weight comes off as a by-product. Did I hear you right?
Ben Azadi (27:02)
Yes.
That’s right,
the weight loss is a side effect of getting healthy, yes.
Rory & AJ Vaden (27:15)
Okay, so let’s talk about two things then that I think are that I just hear these two topics come up all the time in my personal life with friends and family, my business life across the board. Can you explain to everyone what is inflammation, what causes it and what can you do to reduce it?
Ben Azadi (27:31)
Yes, I love that. There’s two types of inflammation, two primary types. There’s acute inflammation and then there’s chronic inflammation. Acute inflammation is not necessarily bad. If you worked out and you have soreness from the workout, that’s acute inflammation. That’s actually a good thing. Your body is sending all the healing properties. You’ll be sore for a couple of days and you’re stronger. If you sprain your ankle, if you hurt your shoulder, this is acute inflammation. Your body is sending those signals. It’s going to be just short term. It’s not necessarily the issue.
Chronic inflammation is the issue. Chronic inflammation is when your cells, you have about 30 to 70 trillion cells in your body, when your cells are inflamed, then…
those messengers, the hormones cannot get in, not just that. Oxygen cannot get into the cells, nutrients cannot get into the cells, and then you’re going to have some symptoms. So we want to find out what’s causing the inflammation. There’s many different things that cause the inflammation. I’ll give you a few of what I believe are the top things that cause inflammation. This might surprise a lot of people, but I believe the number one of the leading causes towards inflammation is actually eating too frequently, snacking and grazing throughout the day.
We’ve been trained to believe we need to eat every two to three hours to keep the metabolism revved up, fired up. That’s actually one of the worst things you can do for your health. If you want to age faster than anybody you know, eat every two to three hours. That is because without getting too scientific, I just want to explain why I say that, there’s something that I wrote about metabolic freedom in my book called the Hayflick Limit.
The Hayflick limit states that your cells could duplicate a certain amount of times until it can no longer duplicate. Once it reaches that limit, this is called the Hayflick limit, now that cell has reached its capacity and it goes into what’s called a zombie cell. A zombie cell now produces.
more inflammation, hormones cannot use the zombie cell, it weakens your immune system, it increases your chances of cancer and different autoimmune conditions. So we want to avoid the Hayflick limit.
you will reach that hayflick limit the fastest, the quickest way to reach it is when you’re eating every two to three hours. Every time you spike glucose from the meal, then insulin is produced, the cells duplicate. And you are achieving that hayflick limit much faster than if you just had three meals a day or practiced intermittent fasting. So that I believe eating too frequently and eating too close to bed on top of that.
is one of the fastest ways to raise inflammation and reach that hay flick limit.
Rory & AJ Vaden (30:07)
Okay, well
talk about some of the worst misinformation of our generation. Keep your metabolism up. Eat every two to three hours, lots of small meals. And that is one of those things that is simply about the aesthetics. It’s like, can you keep your metabolism to look a certain way, not actually be internally healthy?
Ben Azadi (30:13)
Right.
That’s exactly it. And you know, I taught that for so many years as a personal trainer. I used to own a gym here in Miami. used to believe in that. And so I knew better. And once you know better, you do better. And here’s the thing. You don’t even want to speed up your metabolism or boost your metabolism. As a matter of fact, the metabolism doesn’t even operate by speed. It’s not fast or slow. There’s no such thing. It’s either efficient or inefficient.
When you’re eating every two to three hours and most people are eating a lot of processed carbs, you are teaching your metabolism to be inefficient by only using sugar as the only fuel source. And when I say sugar, I’m not necessarily saying eating sugar, I’m saying carbohydrates turn into sugar. Now you have a metabolism that is a sugar burner. That is an inefficient metabolism. When you start to practice fasting, maybe a low-carb keto diet.
avoid eating every two to three hours, you now switch over to fat burning. That is now a metabolism that is efficient. So we don’t want a fast metabolism. No such thing. No such thing as a slow metabolism. We want a metabolism that is flexible and efficient, which is the premise behind my book, Metabolic Freedom.
Rory & AJ Vaden (31:41)
Hmm.
Well, I love that. I mean, there’s another misnomer, speed up your metabolism. And how many people have said the words, I just have a slow metabolism.
Ben Azadi (31:49)
all the time, all the time. know what’s really interesting, AJ? When I was digging into the research on metabolism, was writing the book, I came across a study that is the most comprehensive, best study ever done on the metabolism. it totally just…
Rory & AJ Vaden (31:51)
Yeah!
Ben Azadi (32:05)
excuse that your metabolism is slow, it just made it just like it voided the entire thing because the study showed this is a 2021 study Duke University 6,000 plus people in the study and it was a worldwide study that involved multiple countries and here’s what the study did it looked at different age groups from the age to yeah a two-year-old to age 95 years old and everybody in between 6,000 people and at the end of the study it said that our metabolism
between
the ages of 20 years old and 60 years old, there are no significant changes in the metabolism at all. Okay, so if you’re 45 or 51 or 57 saying it’s because my age is slowing my metabolism, this study, which is the gold standard of measuring metabolism, showed that doesn’t happen. But it did say this. It said they noticed after age 60, there’s a 0.7 % decline
in that metabolism every year after age 60. But the reason why that happens is because of loss of muscle mass, which means if you build your lean muscle mass in your 40s, 50s, or even if you’re over 60, you could be 95 years old with the same metabolism as when you were 25 years old by preserving that lean muscle mass. So to me, that’s super exciting and very cool. it also, you know, that excuse that you have a slow metabolism because of age studies
Rory & AJ Vaden (33:12)
huh.
Ben Azadi (33:34)
Please don’t back that up.
Rory & AJ Vaden (33:35)
Yeah. And then back to it’s like, it’s not about being skinny. It’s about being healthy. It’s about being healthy and having lean muscle mass that matters. Okay. Uh, I’m going go back to inflammation just for a second. said eating too frequently, right? Every two to three hours eating too late, too close to bed. Are there any other general, like, this is going to cause inflammation?
Ben Azadi (33:39)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, the environmental toxins have to be a part of that conversation. Chapter four, no, chapter five, excuse me, of metabolic freedom gets into this. So environmental toxins, reason why I wrote a whole chapter and why I’m bringing it up now is because we live in the most toxic world than ever before.
And the argument that I get on social media when I talk about detox and toxins is, but then we have these detoxification organs in place, the liver, the kidneys, the lymphatic system. Can’t we just detox these toxins that come in? Yes, we do have them in place. God put them there and they do help, but they cannot keep up. These detox pathways cannot keep up with the amount of toxins that we’re dealing with this day, these days. So when we think about it, we are the water that comes through our tap water.
is loaded with toxins. It’s loaded with chlorine and chemicals and different traces of medications and birth control pills. So one simple thing you can do is do not drink tap water at all, ever.
Rory & AJ Vaden (34:53)
Yeah. Good.
Ben Azadi (34:54)
And when you go to a restaurant and they offer you water, it’s typically tap water. I could smell it and know that it’s tap water. I never drink it. I get bottled water and I recommend you do the same. When you’re taking a shower, use a shower filter. $30 on Amazon, you replace every three months. It blocks those toxins in the chlorine, et cetera. Do an audit on your cosmetics. Do an audit on your cleaning supplies, your detergents. Switch over to non-toxic things. As you do these simple changes, it doesn’t require a lot of money or time, but just simple changes.
is you start to reduce that toxicity load. As you reduce the toxicity load, your inflammation also drops. You have more energy, your hormones function better, you burn fat, and you feel better overall.
Rory & AJ Vaden (35:37)
Yeah, I mean, those are so good because those are things you don’t think about, right? It’s like all the household cleaners, tap water, know, shower head filters, all the medications, the birth control. And it’s like, yeah, like we did a huge, what would you say? Yeah, I guess. Yeah. Purge of like our household cleaners of like, we only use, I don’t know if you heard of green llama.
Ben Azadi (35:54)
codes.
No, I haven’t.
Rory & AJ Vaden (36:03)
They’re like, you know, glass water bottles and they come with these little tablets that you just add water to, right? And then they dissolve and it’s like, it’s like I’ve gotten away from all of that stuff. Like my husband Rory’s like, you’re this close to straight blown hippie.
Ben Azadi (36:17)
The values
you feel better doesn’t matter.
Rory & AJ Vaden (36:19)
Keep it on, I’m ready. But those make a difference. Because if you don’t, then they all just add up. And it’s not one thing, it’s all the things.
Ben Azadi (36:26)
Yeah.
That’s correct. Yeah, it’s not one thing. all things. Exactly. Just your bucket just fills up. Like you just said, like I have this bottle here. I’m using, I always use glass water bottles as much as possible. When I can control it. Sometimes not the airport, can’t find it, but when you can control it, use glass instead of plastic. A couple of things. A lot of people who cook at home instead of a plastic cutting board, which you get a ton of microplastics in your food that way, switch over to a wooden cutting board instead of a plastic Tupperware, switch over to
last couple where so it’s just these simple swaps that when you’re aware of you can make the changes that go a long way over time.
Rory & AJ Vaden (37:02)
Amen. So I think, again, it’s not like one huge change that you have to make. It’s like, are all the micro changes that compound? Okay. So we talked about some inflammation, so that was great and super helpful. What are ways we can reduce it? Like, you know, it’s removing all of this stuff. So we talked about that, right? So don’t do some of the, is there anything else that you have seen that really helps with inflammation reduction outside of like, Hey,
Use glass when you can and get a filter on your shower heads and don’t drink from plastic and don’t drink tap water. But are there any other like, hey guys, if you know you’re suffering from inflammation, do one, two, three.
Ben Azadi (37:38)
Yeah.
Yeah, I would say the first thing would be find some schedule of intermittent fasting and start to do some intermittent fasting. know, fasting is the probably the best way to harness this innate intelligence within your body. There’s not a biohack that’s out there that replaces the healing capabilities of fasting. You know, when you’re in a fasted state, your body goes through deep, deep healing. That is because when you’re not fast,
And eating every two to three hours never skipping meals when you’re eating and constantly digesting food it takes a lot of energy Bandwidth blood flow to digest food. That’s why when you ate a huge meal Christmas Thanksgiving whenever it was Your first thought wasn’t okay. I’m ready to record a podcast or get some work done I’m ready to speak on stage. Now your first thought was like, where’s the couch put on the game? Let’s try you turn to a cash potato because all the energy required to digest food Okay, there’s something that happens during a fast around the
Rory & AJ Vaden (38:30)
Yeah.
Ben Azadi (38:37)
14-hour
mark of a fast.
That’s not a long time. 14 hours into a fast. At the 14 hour mark, there’s actually two amazing things that happen. Number one, a process called energy diversion is turned on. Okay, what does that mean? I just shared that it takes a lot of energy to digest food. At the 14 hour mark, meaning 14 hours after your last bite of food, you’ve now completed digestion. So you now divert the energy that was being used for digestion and that energy is now being diverted
to the brain, to your kidneys, to your liver for healing. Okay, this is energy diversion. The second thing that happens at that 14-hour mark is that you start to lower the hormone insulin.
What’s really interesting AJ is that we have over 600 hormones inside of the body. So a lot, but only one hormone signals fat storage and that hormone is called insulin. And anybody who’s overweight right now, it’s because they have high levels of insulin. So what I see a lot of people do when they try to lose weight, they go on chat GPT or YouTube or Google university and they type the words, how do I lose weight? What’s the best diet for weight loss? Wrong question.
The question should be, what’s the best way to lower insulin? Fasting is the best way to lower insulin. Every hour after that 14 hour mark, you start to lower insulin more more and more. once you get into more different types of fasting, like 16 hours and 18 hours, you get other benefits that occur. But I think a 14 hour fast, most people can do, let me lay this out for you real quick. That means if you’re done eating your dinner at,
6 p.m. Last bite of food, 6 p.m. You go to bed that night, right? So you use your sleeping window as a fasting window. Then you wait until 8 a.m. the next morning to break that fast. That’s a 14-hour fast, right? It’s totally doable for a lot of people, right? And just by doing that one thing, you will lower inflammation. You’ll have more energy.
you’ll have less brain fog, more mental bandwidth, and you’ll start to burn fat. Now, if you could take that 14 hours and increase that to 18 hours per day with a six hour eating window and do that consistently, you’re gonna even increase those benefits and lower inflammation even more.
Rory & AJ Vaden (41:02)
Y’all like, I have to admit because you know, in my earlier years, it’s like, like we would still make fun of people who would eat early. And now that we are more educated, we’re like five PMers. And it’s like, we’re, it’s us and all the 95 year old people in the restaurant. But it’s like, it’s because of that right there. It’s like, what we have noticed, maybe it’s an age thing, maybe it’s a knowledge thing. Maybe it’s God’s wisdom showing up in our lives as we open our eyes to it, but it’s like,
Ben Azadi (41:15)
Thank
Rory & AJ Vaden (41:30)
I used to laugh so hard about early bird special, but it’s like, I’m like, there’s something to this. It’s like the longer you wait between eating and going to bed and resting, your body has more time to regenerate and renew itself. And when you’re eating at 9 PM or 8 PM even, and then you’re eating again at 6 AM and 7 AM, like your body gets an arrest.
Ben Azadi (41:52)
Right. Yeah, you know.
Rory & AJ Vaden (41:54)
Where were these messages like 20 years ago? And I’m so glad we have them now, but it’s like, yeah, it’s like, here’s the best part. No one wants reservations at 5.30. You can all take what want.
Ben Azadi (41:56)
Yeah.
That’s
The more popular restaurants, you’ll get a table because it’s only you and those 80, 90 year olds like you said, right? I’m, I’m, I’m.
Rory & AJ Vaden (42:14)
Yeah, I’m here.
I’m all about it. I can’t. I’ll get into all the hot restaurants at five p.m. But yeah, like those those are little things that really do matter. And I love that. And I love just like the fact the facts here around intermittent fasting. We practice that in our household. And I love that. I didn’t realize that it was like that 14th hour. Right. And that’s really fascinating of like it’s not just intermittent fasting. It’s like, no, like, can you make it 14 hours and then stop?
Ben Azadi (42:33)
Yeah.
Rory & AJ Vaden (42:41)
So even having that demarcation for all of us who practice that or who are thinking about it, it’s like there’s an hour. Now, one of the things, because you’ve mentioned it a couple of times casually, what do you think are also the healing elements about the spiritual components with fasting?
Ben Azadi (42:58)
Well, know fasting is in every religion. Religions don’t agree to do a lot of different religions, but they all agree on fasting. Every religion practices some form of fasting. Once you start going to deeper levels of fasting, and what I mean by that long fast, like I’ve done five day water fast, three day water fast, I do 24 hour fast almost every week. Once you go three days and beyond, there’s a connection to God that
It’s hard to put into words. have to just do it to kind of experience it. part of there’s a science behind this where your brain produces something called brain derived neurotropic factor. It’s like miracle growth of the brain. So you’re more creative. You’re more alert. This is great for like book writing, deep, deep work. You’re just so focused because you just remove all that interference. And this kind of happens around that 72 hour mark of a fast three days. But the reason why I believe every religion practices it in the Bible, of course, mentioned
many times is because they didn’t know about BDNF back then but they knew you remove all the interference and then you you connect to your source you connect to your creator you connect to God.
And I experienced that when I do these long fasts. when you, if anybody who watches this or listens to this does a long fast like that, you will notice that same thing. It’s such an incredible experience. And that’s the reason why I believe every religion teaches it because you just, it’s one of the best ways to remove that interference completely and just tap into this incredible source, God, to help you just be present and alert. And I’m telling you, like for book writing, it’s, it’s phenomenal thing for, any author out there.
Rory & AJ Vaden (44:34)
I love that. And I think that’s, I think it’s a good reminder to all of us who practice fasting or who share the Christian faith. It’s like, we’re called to it. Like we’re called to fast. And I think it’s a really important part of like, there’s this physical healing, but then there’s spiritual healing and connection. And those are interconnected, right?
So I love that and I think that’s really great. Okay, I know that we’re coming up on time and I promised we would be short on this, but okay, at last, two couple of quick, like hot topic questions and then we’ll kind of cut this. I could probably talk for three more hours on this because I’m so personally interested. And if you guys who are listening are thinking, yeah, me too, there’s a couple of different things that I just wanna encourage one of them.
is that Ben has mentioned several times his book, Metabolic Freedom, but that’s not his only book. So I would just encourage everyone, go to his website, benazati.com. We’ll put it in the show notes so that you don’t misspell it. But I would just encourage you to go there, check out his book, Metabolic Freedom, check out all of his other books. Also go to his podcast, Keto Camp. Ben, is there a favorite place for people to go if they want to follow you on social media?
Ben Azadi (45:44)
Yeah, thank you for that. My website’s great, great resource, but in terms of my favorite place on social media, we put out a new podcast on YouTube every day, every single day. Weekends included, holidays included, every day. So I would say if you want a brand new episode on our YouTube channel, that’s where you go. Just type in my name, Ben Azzotti on YouTube, you’ll it pop right up.
Rory & AJ Vaden (46:06)
And then we’ll put all of these in the show notes. also has this amazing course that you guys can purchase, which is Metabolic Freedom. We’ll put that in there as well. There’s a lot of things going on. you’re going, yeah, but I need more. Then he’s got the resources. He’s got the book. He’s got the podcast. He’s got the course. So we’ll put all of that in there, but the central place is just go to his website. Last couple of quick questions. To you, what does metabolic freedom mean beyond just physical health?
Ben Azadi (46:31)
Well, it’s the way God built the body. it’s the metabolic freedom is functioning the way God built the human body. And it’s beyond physical health beyond beyond way beyond that. It’s actually so it’s more important to have a mental six pack than a physical six pack. When you are mentally and metabolically healthy, you are living on purpose with your purpose. You are thriving. You are your truest personality. You are functioning and operating the way God designed you.
That is just such an incredible feeling and a lot of people don’t function that way. A lot of people are just surviving. They’re like Earl Nightingale used to say, most people tiptoe their way through life hoping to make it safely to death. I don’t want that life. I know you don’t want it AJ and I don’t want it for anybody watching or listening. So when you get healthy inside out, and I really believe it starts with your thoughts and your mental health before even the physical changes. When you get healthy, you’re just operating the way God designed.
unique to you, unique to your goals and your purpose, which is such a beautiful thing. I have found that for myself and I want that for every single person on the planet because that’s the way we were designed to thrive. And that’s what metabolic freedom and mental freedom means to me.
Rory & AJ Vaden (47:40)
I love that. It’s so good. And it’s so true. Okay, two last questions. You wrote this book, but you didn’t have to. You had all this knowledge, but you didn’t have to put it in a book. Why did you decide to not only write this book, you have four books, but why books? Like what was it that made you go, I feel called to do that?
Ben Azadi (48:01)
Yeah, as you know, as an author, and you teach a lot of people to be successful authors.
There’s something to having a book. There’s such a huge authority piece to having a book. You can hand people a business card or tell them your website or your socials and that’s great. But when you have a book that you could hand them or reference, there’s authority there. And I wanted to create a book like Metabolic Freedom. The reason why I wrote this book specifically, this book is not a niche book. It’s not a book that goes deep into the science.
It definitely has signs, but it was written for the masses. It was written for you to understand how your body works, simple swaps you could make. Here’s a 30-day plan. I wanted to write something that appealed to the masses, that made a dent in what we see the disease out there. I want to make a dent in the disease. So whatever problem we see out there that you see out there for those watching and listening, I think it’s so great to have a book as a solution, a book that somebody could read or listen to or reference as a solution. And that’s the reason why
I wrote this book, it’s the reason why I’m already writing my next book. I think it’s such an incredible thing to have and gets you on, I mean we could talk more about it, it gets you on stages, it gets you more interviews, it’s like there’s so many things to it that AJ could just teach you for hours. But you know, for me, I wanted to have a resource for the masses and I believe that I accomplished that with MetaBolt Freedom.
Rory & AJ Vaden (49:21)
Yeah, I would second that. I really do believe it’s a calling to write a book. A lot of people have information to share, but it’s a calling and it’s a discipline to write a book. But to that point, it creates a document that you can give to people, right? And people who find value in it gives. there’s something tangible about a book that…
The ever greenness of it just seems to way outlast a podcast or social media post or a blog. and I think that’s really meaningful and impactful and it’s a lot of work, right? And that’s a great reminder to all of you who listening, who are getting all of your health tips from Tik TOK or Instagram or YouTube. It’s like the amount of time that we prep. I can just say for me, it’s like, do 15 minutes prep for a podcast, five years of prep for a book.
So if you think about the depth and the knowledge and the time that you put into a book versus a social post or a podcast, it’s extraordinarily different. And so put some weight into like what actual books are you reading? Real expertise, real wisdom, especially when it comes to your health and making sure you’re not just listening to the latest TikTok influencer, but you’re actually getting real expertise and experience. All right, then last question. ⁓
Ben Azadi (50:32)
Yes.
Rory & AJ Vaden (50:34)
This is a totally personal question for everyone who’s listening, who really resonates with what you said today. And they’ve been on the struggle bus and they are struggling with obesity or overweight. but they know like I’m doing all these things and I’m trying and you know, all the things that you probably felt and that I have felt in the past too. What would you say is their very first next step after listening to this conversation?
Ben Azadi (50:58)
I would say, you know, what needs to change is the, your self image, the way you view yourself at a subconscious level. you can make all the conscious decisions to change, do keto fasting, all the things you heard today, but you’ll find a way to sabotage yourself. If you don’t change it at a subconscious level, it’s the way you view yourself, your self image, chapter 10 of metabolic freedom gets into this, but I will say this. One of the things I recommend in chapter 10 that I’ll recommend now is my answer is to on a, a card, a index card, a piece of paper, write down that
new version of yourself, the new image of yourself. Write it down in present tense. Thank God for it, that this is the way that I would recommend it. I would say, I’m so happy and grateful now that, and then you write this beautiful new self image of yourself. So if you’re overweight, the self image would be, I’m so happy and grateful now that I’m at my perfect weight. I’m healthy. I have optimal energy levels. The perfect health I seek is now seeking me. I remove blockages between us. Glory to God for helping me achieve optimal health.
You write that down and you read it every single day, every single morning, right before bed. You do that for 30 days. And what happens is now you start to put this new idea into the subconscious mind. It replaces the old idea. And then you become unstoppable. You no longer sabotage yourself. You start to get some serious momentum. So that would be my tip. Write down that new image, read it every day, at least for 30 days and watch what it does to change your life.
Rory & AJ Vaden (52:20)
So good. So, so good. This has been amazing. Thank you guys so much. Please everyone check out the show notes. We will put all the places where you can get the book, listen to the podcast, follow Ben on social and let’s start 2026 out on the right foot, which is getting healthy inside out. Thanks everyone for listening. We’ll see you next time on the wealthy and well-known podcast.