WWK Ep 025: The Real Secret to Becoming Wealthy & Well-Known
RORY (00:00)
you are the definition of well-known like in your space in your communities and that’s what I want people to see is to go like everybody is modeling after like these people with a bunch of followers but like even the people with a bunch of followers the equity they create is their offline relationships and like
AJ (00:17)
Way to save it, Rory. Just trying to come back here. How have I become so unwell known?
RORY (00:20)
Yes, so tell us.
Yeah, how have you become well-paid without knowing anybody and anybody knowing you?
AJ (00:28)
Wow,
Alright guys, time to talk about some real truth. Most of us have been told and most of us have believed a lie about what fame really is. And we’re gonna share some real…
truth about fame and what really matters when it comes to building your personal brand. See what most of us think is that becoming famous means going viral and having a huge social media following and being known by the wider world. But what we want to do is break it down and talk about micro fame, how to become famous to your audience, how do you become famous in your small niche and why that matters more today than ever before.
All right, Rory, I’m going to kick us off with a question about…
⁓ Please welcome my co-host, the co-founder of Brand Builders Group, my best friend, my husband, New York Times best-selling author, Hall of Fame speaker, Rory Vada.
RORY (01:38)
joking
on another episode that she always always introduce her and she always forgets to introduce me she’s just like alright let’s get into it okay anyways now that that’s Eddie out of the way let’s get into it micro fame strategy love this conversation
AJ (01:53)
And really what I talk about is like how to become famous to your audience. And I think that’s the part about becoming well known that people often just misconstrue. They’re like, this whole personal branding thing, it’s about ego and vanity to popularity contest. And it’s like, no, it’s not. It’s about being known to the audience.
you want to serve, right? So it’s becoming famous in your niche, famous to your audience. And that is important.
Because if you have something that really serves that audience, then you owe it to them to let them know that you exist. Right? So it’s not how do you become like Mr. Pitbull worldwide over there. It’s not being the rock Dwayne Johnson, but it’s how do you become famous in your niche? So let’s talk about that. How do you do that? How do you become well known to the person that you want to be known by?
RORY (02:52)
Yeah, I can tell you a strategy that I’ve never said out loud before about how to develop micro fame and it’s not something that people talk about a lot or expect to hear.
AJ (03:02)
Well,
you’ve been holding out on us.
RORY (03:04)
I’ve never
had this question posed in this way, but I actually, you one of the questions on our sheet here is how do you get podcast invitations when you’re not famous yet? And I kind of consider myself a master of that. Like I have gotten on many of the biggest podcasts in the world and like am so far away from famous or like what most of the other guests are. And that question and the way you tee this up made me think about, huh, how have we really done this? And here’s a strategy that you’ve you’ve never heard before. And I’ve never talked about this.
figure out in any niche there’s like 15 people that really matter a lot. there’s 15, like if you just said who are the 15 people that matter most in my space and then ask yourself how could I be extraordinarily valuable to those 15 people?
And if you actually did that, which is what we have done, right? We figured out these are the people who are very important in our space, very influential. Rather than trying to go viral reaching millions, we said, how can we become extraordinarily valuable to these 15 people?
AJ (04:09)
Influen.
RORY (04:23)
and we did that and they became the gateway to other people. And I think that that strategy is not one that is just unique to us. think that that is how you create micro fame is you figure out who are the most influential people. It’s a small group. And rather than shotgunning to try to go viral and reach the whole world, there’s a small number of people in any sort of niche or industry or vertical.
that really are the people who matter. And if you can figure out how to be extraordinarily valuable to them, then you’ll ride in their wake and they will take you everywhere you want to go.
AJ (05:00)
So I love that and I think that is it’s like, how can you provide use resources? How can you be of service to someone else? Like what have you learned? What have you gained? What do you have that you can give to someone else to build a relationship, right? So give us some ideas. Like for someone who’s out there going, love that, I could do that. How do I do that? What would you say?
RORY (05:24)
Let’s talk about how not to do it. Okay, here’s what most people do is they go, these are the 15 people that are that matter in my space. And they think about how could I get on their show? How could I get on their stage? How could I get they think about what they could get? That’s the wrong question. The whole mindset has to be what can I give? How can I be useful? Is it’s it’s redirecting your reticular activating system in the opposite of how everybody else
AJ (05:38)
not the give.
No expectations
of anything in return, no monetary compensation. It’s just how can I be of use?
RORY (05:57)
right. Yeah. we actually in inside of our ⁓ pressure free persuasion course, we we teach that sales starts with relationships. I’ve never heard anyone else talk about sales, that relationships is actually the first part of our cycle of selling, we call it the service centered sale selling cycle. And you go service centered sales cycle.
AJ (06:17)
a lot of us is service.
Again, service centered
selling cycle. Yeah, there we go.
RORY (06:28)
And, and we have something that’s just called like the relational equity matrix. And we go, okay, what are all the things you can do? So one is, you can give people encouragement, you can send people referrals, you can send people recommended vendors, you can help them hire people, you can ⁓ advise them on some portion of their business, you can send them gifts, you can create experiences for them, you can volunteer for them. Like there’s
all of these things that you can do for people that add value to them. And it’s not just money. you you know, if you have money, some of it is right, like, you know, a lot of if you’re trying to get to really, really successful people, it’s like, don’t and you have money, donate money to their foundation, volunteer to be on their board, but like,
the way to get to people is not by saying what can I do for you or what can I get from you? It’s what can I do for you? And it’s really just being open to what do they need? ⁓ You know, I use the story of Gretchen Rubin a lot who’s not a brand builders group client. And, you know, has over the years become more and more of a friend. But all I did was wait for when she had a book launch, reached out to her, pitched her to be on my podcast. And I said, Hey,
I don’t have a huge podcast, but I know a lot of podcasters. And if you come on my show and I get a feel for what you’re looking for, I will personally go out and pitch you to like 20 shows. And she did that and I did that and we became friends. it was a slow been a slow relationship over the years. But those are the kinds of things it’s not what can I get, it’s what can I give? That’s good. And there’s lots of different things you can give people.
even if you can’t give them an audience because you don’t have an audience, there’s other things you have that you can give.
AJ (08:15)
Yeah, everyone has something. Definitely. It’s just how do you position that in the best service to the person you’re trying to build a relationship with.
RORY (08:23)
And it
starts by doing something that you actually do really, really well. It’s listening by watching. It’s not just listening, like listening to what they say, you watch what they’re involved with, you watch what they’re interested in, you watch what they’re doing, and you sort of anticipate the needs that they have. Because you can’t ask them, what do you need, then you’re just creating work for them to do.
AJ (08:50)
I would tell you like to that, ⁓ and I love that you should probably formalize that strategy and share it more often. That’s really good. One of the things that I have become really focused and intentional about doing is every single time I meet someone as they’re talking, my number one objective is to pinpoint who I can introduce them to. Like it doesn’t matter how long I’ve known you, how long I’ve talked to you, it could be five minutes or five hours. ⁓
Every conversation is going to end with, have someone you should meet. You said something that made me think about this. Let me know if you’d like an introduction. I do that no matter what to every client, every prospect, every friend, every stranger. Like if you’re engaged with me, my number one goal is who can I connect you to? I am very intentionally trying to become a connector in every single conversation. I just think that’s one of the most
value-ridden things I can provide is valuable connection.
RORY (09:53)
And it’s mutually valuable to both of them and valuable to you as a byproduct.
AJ (09:57)
But it’s
also something that I’m intentionally wanting to become known for. And so I’m very intentional about everywhere I go. like, want people to know that they can come to me for connections and referrals and resources. Like, I want to be known as the person to go to if you’re looking for blank kind of connection. And I think that’s just that. And I share that only because anyone can do it.
Like anyone can do that. You don’t have to have some like Navy SEAL expertise or like some like secret skill set. Anyone can become a master connector.
RORY (10:35)
Totally. And I’ve always been a big believer. You know, one of my favorite quotes is that Mark Twain quote that says every man is my superior in some way. Related to that, I’ve always thought to myself, everybody is a somebody somewhere. Yeah, right. Like, everyone has a hookup or a connection to something somewhere. And if you can figure out what does everybody have the like hookup to the connection, and then other people need that and vice versa.
AJ (10:52)
something to
RORY (11:02)
It’s just like you become this this facilitator, this conduit, and the value rubs off on you as you create all of these connections. ⁓
AJ (11:11)
I
love that just for a second like for those of you who are going well, I don’t know anybody like I Don’t have anything I could offer. It’s like first of all, that’s a terribly limiting mindset So whoever is listening who’s already saying that as you’re listening driving down the road is like stop that right now But it’s like I literally was thinking about like I have a person to go to I’m like Hey, who’s selling raw milk out of their trunk? Like where we’re gonna find it or you know, like it doesn’t matter like what it is It’s like a lot of friend who does that I have a friend who sells raw milk or I have a friend who has fresh
or you know I have a friend who whatever it’s like no matter what it is so it doesn’t matter what the thing is or what your socioeconomic status is everybody knows somebody somewhere right and so it’s like really try to train your brain on like how can I just become a resource but that that only works if you’re actually listening like if you’re actually
listening. Like I was in a conversation earlier this week with a couple of other parents who homeschool their kids and our kids are homeschooled and I always have to clarify I am not a homeschooler because some people will hear that and think I am, I am not. I’m not equipped for that amazing role but our kids are homeschooled. They go to a homeschool academy and so they were talking about well how did you do that and how did you get into that and I was like ⁓ let me tell you and like I had like three or four like teed up resources had nothing to do with work. It was all about homeschool and I’m like well this
is where we, you know, register with and this is how we did this and this is who I go to do the fat for that. It doesn’t matter what it is, right? It’s like whatever is whatever it is, have your list, be a resource, but you got to listen for it. Whatever it is.
RORY (12:46)
Yeah, whatever you’re into. That’s
a good transition to this. This question, I think is powerful. And it is what’s the difference between being well known and being well paid? ⁓ And how do I achieve both? But let’s start with the first part of the question of what’s the difference between being well known and well paid? Do you have to be well known to be well paid?
And I’m curious your thoughts on this because you’ve become well paid over the years and not you’re not necessarily the most famous person. So that’s my introduction.
AJ (13:20)
So rude.
She knows no one and no one knows her.
RORY (13:27)
you know everybody here’s the thing is you are the definition of well-known like in your space in your communities and that’s what I want people to see is to go like everybody is modeling after like these people with a bunch of followers but like even the people with a bunch of followers the equity they create is their offline relationships and like
AJ (13:49)
Way to save it, Rory. Just trying to come back here. How have I become so unwell known?
RORY (13:52)
Yes, so tell us.
Yeah, how have you become well-paid without knowing anybody and anybody knowing you?
AJ (14:02)
Wow, actually was gonna start with both of those things are really relative. Like what is well known? What is well paid? I think that’s all super relative based on who you’re talking to, right? Like yeah, if you compare me to Mel Robbins, I’m very unknown comparatively speaking, but if you compare me to, you know,
RORY (14:10)
and what is well paid.
AJ (14:27)
Sally Jo down the street, I’m probably fairly well known. So I think it’s all relative. I think that the balance and all of that is don’t compare yourself to anyone else. And I think that’s probably why I’ve always been fairly well paid, as I don’t really compare myself too much to other people. I don’t really care what they’re doing. I never really have, you know, that’s a gift I’ve been given. ⁓
RORY (14:51)
You have a
zero impressibility score. Other than Dolly Parton, there’s nobody in the world that impresses you.
AJ (14:58)
She’s impressive, I’m not gonna lie, she’s impressive. ⁓ But I do really think it comes down to this whole idea of being well known. And what I love about the conversation today is I don’t need to be well known by a lot of people, I need to be well known by my people. And that all starts with knowing who my people are.
⁓ I go into some, know, like Rory very much represents like the marketing side, like the digital marketing side of BBG. you know, he’s always trying to get me to go to like these different events with him with all these very well-known like influencer and, you know, and I’m like, that’s not my people. Those are your people. Like I don’t fit there.
Like I try and I’m like, they’re talking all this stuff and I just glaze over. I don’t know, I got dozed off, blacked out. It’s not my thing. And what I have been really okay with is like, I know my people. And I’m pretty well known in the entrepreneur crowd of our town because I make an effort to be so.
Right? I’m involved in the entrepreneur organization. I do networking lunches with them. I host dinners for them. I help be on boards with them. It’s like, I’m trying to be well-known in this space where I want to be well-known. And it’s not a huge space. It’s a very niche space in my town. ⁓ So it’s small.
but that’s where I want to be known. And so that’s where I focus my time and attention. And I think that’s what it means to be well known is you just have to be very clear on who do I want to be known by and where are they? And you got to show up.
RORY (16:32)
Yeah, the other thing is you’re talking this ties back to what we were saying earlier is I’m realizing, ironically, one of the best ways to become well known.
is to help other people meet each other. And when you help other people meet each other, you get caught in the crossfire. Like going back to my Gretchen Rubin story, right? It’s like Gretchen Rubin would never know who I am today. If I had never introduced her to all these people and introduced her to this like mastermind that I’m in that now she’s a part of, right? And it’s like now
I am somebody to her. And she would recognize me not because of my accomplishments and my audience and you know, like, I mean, she sold so many books compared to how many books I’ve sold or whatever, right. But it’s like I’m known to her because I helped her know other people. And I think the same is true about wealth, right? It’s like, if you want to help other people, if you want to get wealthy, help other people get wealthy. One of my favorite quotes I heard recently was billionaires are just people who create millionaires.
AJ (17:31)
Yeah,
I love that.
RORY (17:32)
So good. Yeah.
And so true, right? And it’s like, everyone’s approaching it. This whole conversation is about flipping this switch from going, how do I get and how do I become to how do I give and how do I help others become? And the irony is that when you focus on how do I give and help others become, you get when you focus on how do I get and how do I become you don’t get. And that is just like super ironic.
AJ (18:00)
Yeah. And the thing that we can all give is introductions and connections. It doesn’t matter. And so I guess back to how do you become well known? It’s one, it’s relative, right? Don’t compare. But most importantly, it’s like, you got to know who you want to be well known and you have to know where they gather. And then you have to show up consistently. Right. And so I think that’s, that is how you become well known in a niche space, right? Famous in your space. Now on the other part of well paid,
Again relative, right? ⁓ It’s all relative. So once don’t compare whatever well-paid is to you whatever well-known is to you a lot of you are trying to build local presence own it be good with it Some of you are just like I would just like it’s my dream to make six figures Awesome, don’t compare yourself to someone trying to make eight figures. Don’t do it. It’s not worth it So just stay in your lane put some blinders on and be like this is my calling This is my path my race. You can only run your race
You cannot run someone else’s with all of that said, ⁓ how to become well paid. You just said that awesome quote is that the billionaires are just people who make millionaires. heard another quote here recently, similar to that, that I’ve really latched onto is that seven figure earners, seven figure earners master the basics that six figure earners are too advanced to do. And I’ve really hung on to that of like,
No, seven-figure earners are just people who are not above doing the basics and the fundamentals. They are masters of the basics that six-figure earners are too advanced to do. And I think that’s so good and it’s so wise and a great reminder to all of us is that making money is not hard. It’s a numbers game. And it requires you to become a master of the basics, which is
work the numbers.
RORY (19:59)
Literally, I think even us right? We’ve had multiple eight figure ventures now at this this point three ⁓ and the You and I spend our time going how do we get more calls on the calendar? How do we renew more customers?
AJ (20:19)
Same conversation.
RORY (20:20)
how do we get more referrals? And even on our financial calls, it’s like we’re just trying to get our our PNL tight and go like get it accurate and go are these benchmarks in place? And what is it compared to our budget? And what is it over prior year? Like the most fundamental I had somebody reach out to me, a friend of ours that we you know, we haven’t seen for a few years. And he reached out to me with the most beautiful question. And this is someone who doesn’t earn a lot of money.
AJ (20:35)
more.
RORY (20:50)
It was a really beautiful question and I was honored that he reached out. don’t even know if I told you this, but he has a son and he’s a single dad and he said, if I could just save up $5,000 for my son, Rory, I know you know this stuff, tell me what to do with it so that he could have money when he’s grown up. Right? And this is like a friend of ours that doesn’t have a hard work. You know who I’m talking about?
AJ (21:14)
I know exactly your time.
RORY (21:16)
I was like, first of all, such a beautiful question to go, this dad is trying to change the legacy of his family. He’s trying to do something for his son. And he is going, I want my son to have a better life than I do, or a different life than I have. Next, I was totally honored that he reached out to me. just like, don’t know, I haven’t talked to this guy in a couple years. And I was like,
I am so flattered and honored that you had asked me and that you think I would actually have some type of answer. And then I definitely responded with a very thorough but simple answer as I said, Hey, Jane, I don’t do crazy investments. We don’t own like a whole bunch of stuff. We do growth stock mutual funds and we invest early and I said if you just take $5,000 and you put this in a simple IRA,
and you don’t try to gamble and make bazillions and you just let because of your son’s age he’s like five years old if it grew at eight percent for 60 years it would be worth over five hundred thousand dollars and that was powerful and and also you know i hope the lesson in for him was like it’s simple like it’s it’s it’s simple stuff
Most people are like, how do I get rich quick? How do I say I want want crypto I want so I want to I want to own 27 companies I need to invest in 47 different and I want I want apartment complexes I want fix and flip and I all this stuff and it’s like no we’re like really boring with our or you’re awesomely boring and and and I also think back you know a lot of my friends that when we started brand builders group which it was our you know a new endeavor at the time
AJ (22:52)
awesomely awesomely boring
RORY (23:07)
A lot of them go, I can’t believe how fast you’ve grown. And they’re like, I remember when you talked about 1000 messengers when you started the company. And like, you actually are still doing the thing like we, we haven’t even gotten there yet. And but we haven’t changed direction. Like it’s been the thing. It’s, it’s totally the fundamental.
AJ (23:26)
It
is the fundamentals. It’s not the sexy thing that everyone wants to talk about, but it’s becoming a master of the basics. And to be well paid, it’s like, you got to work the numbers. Right? It really is a work the numbers. It’s just, you don’t, and that’s the beautiful thing about it is like, you don’t have to be a masterful marketer or a masterful salesperson. You just got to work the numbers and let the ratios fall out. And the more you do it, the better you get.
It’s kind of a great thing. I would say the only thing that has made me a pretty good salesperson over the years is like, I’m just going to outlast everybody else. My follow-up game is strong. My organization game, my calendar game is strong. It’s like, I’m just going to outlast everyone else. That just gets bored and moves on. It’s master the fundamentals and work the numbers.
RORY (24:18)
Another thing on this monetization strategy is the David and Goliath. And ⁓ everyone knows the story of David and Goliath, but also Malcolm Gladwell wrote a book called David and Goliath. And the argument that Malcolm Gladwell makes in that book, and it’s a fascinating book as is everything he writes, is that we all think that David had this miraculous moment where he overcame the giant. ⁓
there’s an argument for that for sure, and God was with David, but… And what Malcolm, the argument he makes is he says, yeah, but David also had an advantage. This guy was huge and was weighed down by all of this armor. David was nimble and quick, and he had spent his young life fighting lions with a slingshot. this wasn’t just like a random lucky shot. He had spent his life preparing, and this particular set of circumstances worked to his advantage.
AJ (24:49)
But God equipped David, prepared David.
RORY (25:14)
The reason I point that out, a lot of people listening that don’t have huge followings, they think they’re at a disadvantage of like, huh, I’m not famous enough, no one is gonna buy from me, et cetera. ⁓ Or they think I’m new to entrepreneurship, how am I ever gonna compete with people who’ve been doing this for 20 years? And what you don’t realize is that the earlier you are, you have an advantage. And the advantage is that you have more time.
Right? When you’re you either have time or you have money. And you always know which one it is because if you don’t if you don’t have have time if you have if you don’t have money, then that means you have time or you’re not spending your time right. But when you’re starting out, you can offer a level of service that is intimate and up close and personal that is worth way more money to fewer people. It’s easier to sell
higher dollar offers to fewer people who pay you more for more attention. That is the fastest path to a lot of money. People who have huge audiences and huge teams, they can’t offer that level of service because they don’t have that much time available because they’re busy managing their team and managing the empire and all this stuff. So what you think is a disadvantage actually is an advantage. It’s like David being small and nimble and quick. And when you’re new to this business, here’s the other thing.
you can charge less, right? Like, people who are famous and have a lot of demand, they can’t sell one on one coaching for a low dollar amount because the demand is so high, they have to charge more because they don’t have that much time available. You can what you have the advantage of when you’re just starting out is supply, you have lots of supply. Now demand is low and supply is high, which means the price is low. That’s an advantage. You can go to the market,
and sell at a lower price, which is what you should do. And then you raise your prices over time. So what feels like a disadvantage of not being famous actually totally is. What feels like a disadvantage of being new as an entrepreneur actually is a tremendous advantage. You just got to change the mindset and the limiting beliefs that are there.
AJ (27:31)
Yeah, I love that. All right, well, this is a good transition into our community question. All right, Rory, tell us what this section is all about and what’s the question of the day.
RORY (27:39)
Community questions. So this
is great, right? So at Brand Builders Group, we have members that are in part of our coaching program that we foster relationship and help them build their business. And inside of our actual portal, they can write in questions to me and AJ and other members vote up the questions. And then the top ones we pick here for the show. So this one comes from Michelle. It says I am a nutritionist who works specifically with women over 40 going through perimenopause.
I know exactly who I serve and I love the work, but there are so many health and wellness influencers out there that I feel completely invisible. How do I break through and become the go-to name for my exact client without competing with people who have 10 times my following and 100 times my budget? What a perfect question for what we’ve just been talking about.
AJ (28:33)
I was
just thinking the same thing. That’s just the perfect question for you. Women over 40 going through peri-man-pause. Can you not relate to that? Exactly. I love this question. It’s like, how do I break through and become the go-to name for my exact clients? So what I love about this is that, knowing what you do and who you are, I bet you don’t need thousands of clients. I bet you couldn’t even handle hundreds of clients. I bet
you’re looking for dozens of Fast, bet. So how do you become the go-to name for your exact client?
RORY (29:05)
if even doesn’t.
AJ (29:11)
Assuming you have some clients, it’s to double down on those clients. It is to give them a life changing experience and then ask them to refer you to their friends. And that’s the unique thing about your exact business, Michelle, is that women over 40 going through perimenopause, they know other women who are over 40 going through perimenopause because we’re all talking about it. That’s for sure. Everybody’s talking about it, right? So you can find them. You know where they are, right? And so it’s like one, it’s like, don’t forget the best
client you have is or the best client to get is the one that you already have. So use those people to get referrals and get referred but don’t just ask for a referral be like hey I know this is a hot topic with everyone I’d love to host a lunch. If you would just invite five friends I would love to do a free luncheon, a free webinar.
It’s like just ask every single one of your clients. Like if you would invite five of your best friends who are going through the exact same thing, you are, I’d to take everyone to coffee. I’d love to host a lunch. I’ll do a virtual webinar, whatever it is. If you have local clients, great. If they’re, if they’re out of town, fine, do it virtually, but just start going like, I just want to meet these people in person. I want to look them in the eye. I want to learn what their issues are. And I want to let them know that there’s a better way and start with the clients that you have. Do coffees, do luncheons, do happy hours, do
Saturday morning workouts and ask people to invite people to come with them, your clients, invite their friends. We’re all talking about, we all know who each other are. That’s where I would start. Then the next thing that I would do, because you don’t need 10 times the following and a hundred times the budget, as I’d start going to every single person who services these people who are over 40 going through perimenopause, I’d build relationships. I’d start with my OBGYN, right? I’d start with my physician.
I would start with every single person that serves me as a 42 year old woman, not yet going through perimenopause, but like I would start there and it’s like, these are all the people that serve me. I’m going to start building relationships with people because I know they have more people like me, right? I know they know more people like me. And I’m going to just take that grassroots local referral word of mouth marketing because I serve my clients so well. It’s an easy yes, because I’m giving them life changing results.
It’s an easy yes to invite other people into something for free to learn about what I do. That’s what I would do if I were you.
RORY (31:36)
Yes, this so good. And I have to come back here to the story of David and Goliath in the Bible. There is one of the…if you read Scripture on this story, it is going how David…they tried to suit David up in armor, and he said, I can’t wear this armor.
He was, David was smart enough to know or spirit-led enough to know that he couldn’t compete with Goliath at his own game, size versus size. David was smart enough to say, I’m going to embrace my strengths and the things that God’s given me and I’m going to use those tools, a slingshot and no armor. And small entrepreneurs need to do the same thing. You might not be able to compete on size of audience. What you can compete on is intimacy and access to the clients.
serve a smaller group of clients in a deeper way. There’s, you know, you can make $100,000 by selling 1000 people $100 product, you got to have a big audience to sell 1000 people $100 product. The other way you can make $100,000 is to sell 10 people a $10,000 product. And it’s way easier to do that and serve a small group of 10 10 people in a very, very deep way.
That’s how I’d be thinking I’d be doing exactly the things that you.
AJ (32:53)
said. Yeah. And if you’re out there listening and you’re going, well, how do I take all this information and apply it to what I’m building to my audience, to my business, then honestly, we would just really encourage you to take us up on our free call offer. ⁓ One of our team members at Brandbender’s group will sit down with you for a one hour free strategy call to talk about what you got going on, how we can help. And even if we’re not a fit with you, give you some tips and advice and some struck an instruction to keep you on the right
path. if you want to take us up on that, ⁓ we would encourage you to go to freebraincall.com forward slash podcast.
freebrandcall.com forward slash podcast and grab a call with someone on our team so that you can talk through how can you take some of these ideas and apply them to help you grow your business and serve the audience that you’re meant to serve. Now, we’d also love it if you would share this episode. So if you’re not ready for that call, but you’re all like, wow, this was helpful. I have more friends who need to hear this, then please share this, like it, leave us a review on whatever platform you listen to it.
We would so appreciate it. And most importantly, we invite you to come back and listen to another episode the next time on the Wealthy and Well-Known Podcast. We’ll see you later, y’all.
listen up. You do not need the whole internet to know your name.
RORY (34:17)
just the ones who are in your wonderfully weird little corner of it.
WWK Ep 024: Why Less Qualified People Make More Money Than Experts
Rory (00:00)
It’s one of the things that breaks my heart and makes me so angry about the world that we live in today is that I think a lot of the most under qualified people are getting the most attention and the most revenue and I don’t think that’s fair. But whether I like it or not, it is what it is. So we’re going to teach about how to
AJ (00:17)
That’s interesting because
I don’t have that same disdain that you do at all. don’t.
Rory (00:28)
Here is something uncomfortable that I’ve learned that you probably aren’t going to like. It’s painful to hear this, but customers don’t buy from you because of your credentials.
This is one of the most frustrating things that we hear time and time again from mission driven messengers. Why am I more qualified than other people out in the marketplace, but I don’t seem to have as much traction. That’s what we’re going to talk about on today’s episode is how to convert your credentials into customers and why they don’t convert just by themselves. So if you are someone who is qualified to build a great personal brand, but you feel sometimes like a little bit of the world’s best kept secret, we’re going to unblock that for
you here on the show. Joined by my business partner, best friend, CEO of Brand Builders Group, co founder, co author, New York Times bestselling author.
AJ (01:17)
You’re
always so nice about introducing me and I always forget to Like as you were doing that I’m like I always forget I just roll into the conversation
Rory (01:21)
Yeah, you never introduced me.
That’s how you are. You’re like, all right, let’s get down to business.
AJ (01:33)
business.
Yeah, I’m like, let’s get on with the conversation. Today. So yeah, so here’s I think this is a good question, because I think that we’ll have similar, but varying responses. Yeah, of why don’t credentials actually help you grow your personal brand? Because I think we spend so much time just as professionals, of trying to get that next certification, right? Get that next credential, get those next three letters behind your name. And it’s like at the end of the day, that
Rory (01:35)
What is our conversation?
AJ (02:03)
doesn’t really necessarily move the needle. Why not?
Rory (02:09)
The answer I would say to why that doesn’t matter is because people don’t buy you. They buy them. Right. They’re not buying really who you are. They’re buying what they want. They’re buying their dream. They’re buying their transformation. So so it’s it’s not I think people who are chronic overachievers and academics. OK. Right here you got two people who did really well in school. Right. I was I was a study bug as was AJ.
AJ (02:34)
High School Valac
Tutorian over there.
Rory (02:36)
I was high school valedictorian of a very small school. I beat the other guy. ⁓ We had 90 people in our class. you know, it was, it was something, but I think those of us that value traditional academia and research and credentials and things like that, we tend to assume that other people will not only value them, but that they will buy because of them and pay more because of them. And it’s just not true. People will pay whoever is available.
AJ (02:57)
them.
Rory (03:06)
whoever is accessible and whoever they think can help them get a result. And I’m not saying I like it. In fact, I’m saying I hate it. It’s one of the things that breaks my heart and makes me so angry about the world that we live in today is that I think a lot of the most under qualified people are getting the most attention and the most revenue and I don’t think that’s fair. But whether I like it or not, it is what it is. So we’re going to teach about how to
AJ (03:33)
That’s interesting because
I don’t have that same disdain that you do at all. don’t. ⁓ I think that it’s really important. It’s really valuable, specifically in some professions. There are some industries, some professions where that does hold more clout and more weight and I would expect for you to charge more and that would be justified. ⁓ But I think for a lot of people, they’re going, no, I just want to know that you’ve done the thing.
Not that you’ve studied the thing, learned about the thing, researched the thing, like reported on the thing. I want to know you’ve done the thing. And I think a lot about like, even as we do a lot of interviewing and recruiting at Brandbuilders group, I have literally stopped looking at education. I don’t know if that’s good or bad. Sorry to admit it here. I don’t care what your GPA is.
I don’t care where you went to school, don’t even care what your degree is. I want to know what was the last five years of your work experience.
Rory (04:33)
Right. Have you done the thing? Yeah.
Well, and that to me is OK. Right. And that’s where to me, I think that’s an important conversation is where does real credibility come from.
AJ (04:42)
But to the point, right? It’s like, yes and, right? It’s like, it’s great when we go and we do all of that academic. We were talking about this the other day.
Rory (04:51)
There is somewhere that credentials matters a lot, a lot, a lot.
AJ (04:54)
Yes, but we were also talking about the other day of, you know, we have some friends that we know in our life who were like, a, students, valedictorian, top of their class and love them to death, but can’t think for themselves. It’s like literally if it wasn’t in a book, if they couldn’t follow the exact process for it, like they can’t think for themselves.
Rory (05:18)
They can memorize information, but they can’t critique.
AJ (05:21)
It
cannot, it will not transfer to real life. There’s not a system for that. There’s not a process for that. There’s not an SOP for that. I don’t have a one pager for that. Like I just need you to go figure it out and they cannot do it. And so I think there’s, there’s some of that, that, you know, I think academia can almost, almost drive the natural creativity out of us that has starting to really kind of expose itself. It’s like, well, yeah, you’ve
researched and taught all the things, but you’ve never actually done the thing. Now that’s different for the person who has researched it and done it. So just, want to make a clarification that it’s not saying getting your MBA, master’s, PhD is an important and valuable. I really do think in a lot of places it matters a lot. And in other places it doesn’t. So it’s knowing the difference of the two. So if I would actually just take a side, you know, like a master’s MBA or PhD for a second.
And what I find more people are doing or going like, where can I get this next certification? And will this next thing help me do this? And it’s, that’s the part where I’m like, you are spending your time in the wrong areas. You’re trying to go get certified in something, somehow thinking some letters behind your name is going to get you business instead of actually doing the sales work that needs to be done. It’s creative avoidance in a regard. It’s trying to figure out, Hey, is there some sort of way I don’t have to go make the sales calls or have the conversations.
and can I just go learn some stuff and hopefully people will find me.
Rory (06:51)
the part I think where you know you say disdain it’s like I don’t have heartburn with somebody who has done the thing getting the business I actually love that even more than the academia and the research and I go like to me all you need to be credible is that you’ve actually done the thing yeah your most powerfully positioned to serve the person you once were you conquered the challenge you walked the path you solved the problem you triumped over the tragedy you overcame the obstacle to me that is
is the ultimate level playing field of what deserves credibility. I don’t mind when that person wins. What I don’t love is when the best marketer wins without either the credibility, without either the academic, what I’m saying is academic credibility or the life experience. And that’s what I’m seeing a lot today.
AJ (07:29)
without,
breaks
my heart. That’s frustrating. That’s annoying. But yes, yeah, I was thinking about one of our clients that we were talking to earlier this week, and she has her PhD in seismot…
Rory (07:52)
seismology
she’s an earthquake
AJ (07:54)
No, I’m not
a PhD in this. But yeah, she’s an earthquake engineer. And I’m like, yeah, I need you to have a PhD. Yeah, I really want you what’s the next class you can take? Yeah, I really want you to make sure that, you know, architectural foundations are secure and high earthquake prone areas. Like I need you to have a PhD. Like that’s important. But then in other areas, like to your point where it’s the person who’s just
you know, marketing that they’ve done the thing, they haven’t done the thing, haven’t studied the thing, they have no credentials. And when they’re winning, that’s, that’s, that’s giving us all a little bit of a bad rep.
Rory (08:31)
Well, and I think, you know, don’t hear what we’re not saying. We’re not saying that credentials aren’t important in particularly one area. If you stay tuned, we’ll talk about where credentials really do matter. So we’ll get to that. But
what we are saying is that the people who are winning today aren’t the smartest, they’re not the most qualified, they’re not even the most experienced, they are the best marketers. And that it comes down to marketing and sales and those, and in some ways that is just doing the thing. Like when you’re building an entrepreneur, that’s what it means to be an entrepreneur. One of the things I’ve been saying a lot like in the last year is that creators favorite form of creative avoidance is to create. Creators favorite form of creative avoidance is to create.
is an academics favorite form of creative avoidance is to study, like to study stuff, to learn the thing and not actually, you know, do the marketing and sales. And so I think what we want to talk about is why first, so let’s start there. So why doesn’t credentials equal customers? What do you think?
AJ (09:18)
the
Genuine believe that credentials don’t equal customers because true experts are spending all of their time, money, energy, and resources actually honing their craft and not telling anyone about what they do. I believe it really does sit on the individual where they are so consumed with the next research and studying and analytics and diving into case studies. And they’re so busy doing the thing that they have never looked up and actually told anyone about the expertise they have.
I think that real true experts, what we’re actually talking about are the world’s best kept secrets because they have not had the desire or the reason to equally study sales and marketing. They have an amazing passion for a thing and it does not include the business components of the thing.
Rory (10:34)
is interesting because we have an explosion in our community of like doctors, like lawyers, professional advisors who spent their career doing the thing. And I think what we’re learning, we talk about this in Wealthy and Well-Known, is that there are two parts of your art. There is the art of your art, and then there is the art of letting people know that your art exists. Marketing is art. Marketing is part of
your art and as people wake up to that, right, I think about Dr. Gabrielle Lyons, one of my favorite, you know, success stories of one of our clients who just she just kills it. She’s like a deep, deep expertise, spent her whole life researching like the real deal doctor, you know, like not an honorary degree, like a straight up this is the this is the real deal. And then she’s also become a master in in marketing the last couple years and branding and positioning and she’s just crushing it and she’s changing lives. And
AJ (11:31)
But that’s also because academia doesn’t teach those types of professions, business, sales and marketing. And that’s a real problem. And I hope that really changes in academia because it’s like for anyone to be insanely successful at their craft, they’re gonna have to learn the business components of how to run that business.
Rory (11:55)
I
mean, it’s crazy. I did get an MBA from a private school, you know, a great university shout out to Denver University, go pioneers. ⁓ But like,
that MBA, everything that we were taught about how to start a business was all about like raising money and pitch decks and like other people’s money and investors like, and the reality is that most entrepreneurs, they bootstrap it, start, you got to sell, you got to market, it’s more of that like guerrilla tactics and it was like, I didn’t learn a thing about any of that.
even the marketing we learned is like, you know, the four piece of marketing with you if you’re managing a $500,000 a year advertising budget, but it’s like, that’s not where entrepreneurship happens, right? It’s not where you start.
AJ (12:39)
That’s why I think most people are spending all of their time honing their craft, which is why they’re true experts, but they yet have not made the time to hone the skills necessary in the sales and marketing arena.
Rory (12:51)
So let’s talk about the skills
required in the sales and marketing arena. And this is a thing that us academics need to understand that we do not. When you have poured your life into your craft, you tend, I’ll speak for myself and people that I know, we tend to think people should respect us for what we’ve done and
operate accordingly. And this is where I think doctors and academics get a little of a bad rap of like, oh, they’re arrogant, because it’s like, yeah, because I put in the time to do this. But in the marketplace, people don’t buy because of you. They don’t because of how smart you are. They don’t buy because of how many degrees you have. Usually, they don’t even understand what the initials after your last name even stand for. They only buy because of what you can do for them. And if everything is about you and how great you are, and what you’ve done, and your research, and why you’re the best,
They frankly don’t care. They care about, can you help me succeed? How fast and who else have you done that for? Not how long have you studied it? Not what awards have you won? Not why you’re the world’s greatest? Just do you have a plan to help me succeed? Have you helped other people succeed? Can you do it fast? And can you articulate that clearly? And if you spend all your time talking about yourself, you’re going to be a highly qualified, very broke entrepreneur.
AJ (14:13)
Well, I think the other thing is too, I think this is really worthwhile, is that I think if you are in a industry, a profession where credentials carry a lot of weight, medical field, health care field, financials, like some of those other kind of things, ⁓ to be honest, they’re just the standard prerequisite. It’s almost the expectation that it’s
Rory (14:39)
just have a
CPA or that you have all these financial designations that
AJ (14:44)
You don’t get the
credit that they warrant because it’s kind of like the price of entrance. So I think there’s some of that that’s occurring where it’s like, well, yeah, of course, that’s just what you, that’s what I expect for you to do. But we had the opportunity to hear Dr. Henry Cloud speak a week ago and he was talking about how he selected his knee surgeon. And I thought it was very interesting. You know, he’s an academic.
Right. He’s got a PhD in psychology and he had gotten multiple referrals to three different types of doctors and one was world-class, well-known LA.
you know, knee surgeon to the stars and another one was recommended that was out of state. And then there was another one and another one had founded a clinic and he went through all these things. And it was so interesting to me how he selected the one he selected. And the one he selected is the one who actually took the time to ask questions about him, had done research on him, said, I see you’re a golfer. And like, it was all these things. Cause again, people aren’t buying your credentials.
Right? They’re buying what you can do for them. And out of all the doctors he selected, he chose, he lives in LA, to leave LA, or he did at the time, and go to Little Rock.
Rory (16:04)
Yeah, Arkansas.
AJ (16:05)
to have
this knee surgery done. And it’s like he was surrounded by world-class surgeons all around him. And he was like, but they didn’t care about me. They didn’t ask me questions. It was about, see this all the time. I know I’m the doctor. And the one he selected was like, hey, I see you’re a golfer. When’s the last time you got to golf? I can’t believe you’re walking around on that thing. Tell me when the pain started. And he said, they took time to get to know me and catered what they did to my goals.
to what I wanted to restore to, and that’s the one he selected. And I think that’s the same that goes for anyone, doesn’t matter what credentials you have or have not, it’s are you going to take the time to get to know your customer? Because it’s not just about what you’ve learned, it’s how can you apply what you’ve learned to help the person right in front of you.
Rory (16:53)
Yeah, and I think, you know, a risk is if you’ve put a lot of time into credentials, you want people to view you as important because you’ve earned that. But people don’t buy because you’re important. They buy because you make them feel important. And that’s a really important, that’s a key shift to understand. You know, I think about the speaking industry, right? Like, I see this all the time. I’ll lose a speaking gig to someone. I’m a certified speaking professional. I’m a CPAE, Council of Peers Awards of Excellence for the Hall of Fame. I’ve been a two time world champion.
of public speaking finalists. And, and never has anyone hired me for any of those things. In fact, I lose gigs a lot to people who don’t have any of that kind of training, but they’re more well known than I am. They’re a better marketer, they’re they their book sells better, whatever, like, they have more, they’ve done a better job of getting to the decision maker, and, and making their expertise more relevant to the decision maker than I have now. So I think that’s, that’s important.
AJ (17:25)
so impressed by it.
Rory (17:53)
distinction for people to understand. And it doesn’t mean that the credentials aren’t important or worth pursuing. It’s just they’re not the things that lead to conversion.
AJ (18:02)
Now you did mention earlier though, there’s one area where credentials really matter. I think we should talk about it.
Rory (18:08)
Should we talk about that?
The area that credentials really mattered is when you are getting featured as a guest on media. It really does matter. And people ask me this all the time. I think it was last week we just had our 116th client become a national bestselling author, which was also the 24th client that we’ve helped hit the New York Times.
we are helping clients hit the New York Times, honestly, ethically, and regularly right now, knock on wood. And it’s through a lot of hard work, and it’s a lot of energy, and it’s a lot of time, and it’s a lot of resources. And people say, is the New York, does the New York Times bestseller list still matter? And it’s like, to the average person on the street, it matters zero. In our national research study, we actually proved that the average person on the street
cannot tell the difference between a New York Times bestselling author, a Wall Street Journal, USA Today, Amazon, they can’t even tell the difference between a traditionally published book, a hybrid book, or a self published book. They do not know, they do not care. So when it comes to making money from customers, they only care, can you help them? for the media, it matters. If you’re gonna get on Good Morning America, if you’re gonna get booked on the biggest podcast, you know, I use Louis just because he’s, you know, a friend.
AJ (19:19)
The idea matters.
Rory (19:29)
Lewis gets so many books, Lewis Howes I’m talking about. So School of Greatness, they have one of the biggest podcasts in the world. Every week people send them books. And there’s two piles. There’s the automatic no pile. And then there is the maybe pile. And if you’re a New York Times bestselling author, you automatically get into the maybe pile. Doesn’t mean you get it. It means that you are immediately separated from 90 % of the people you probably get a look. And that’s true.
for a national or a local, particularly a local TV interview, that’s true for a speakers bureau, a literary agent, ⁓ any type of podcast or media interview. And if that’s why, if you show me someone who’s getting $50,000 to speak consistently, I will show you a bestselling author. I’m not saying I like it, but I’m telling you that is how it is. And companies have to be able to justify paying a certain amount of money, and they use credentials as part of it. So credentials still matter a lot
in those circles in the in the street cred of your industry right in those rooms at the National Speakers Association being a CSP and a CPA ⁓ it makes a world of difference. At Toastmasters it means nothing at Toastmasters being a two-time world champion of public speaking finalist is a big deal. There’s nowhere else in the world does it matter at all like nobody knows and so that’s but but if you’re trying to get a meeting
AJ (20:57)
video.
any industry. Totally like credentials matter in your industry because you’re all speaking the same language. You know what it takes, but outside of your industry to get customers, not as much. But I would say like that’s the same for like industry conferences, getting on panels, credentials matter for that. Why? Because they held a different standard. They act as a filter of somebody who has done more work, earned something that most do not. Books act as a filter, right? If you have a book, that’s one thing. It was a best selling book. It was at Amazon. Was it USA Today?
day, was it New York Times, they act as filters. But for consumers, for dollars and cents, maybe not as much. So I want to break the rest of our interview up into two categories. there’s a lot to cover in this conversation. And here are the two categories. The first one is, okay, what if I’m someone who doesn’t have a lot of credentials? But I do have a lot of experience, like a street cred, right? How do I build my credibility without a big name or really well known resume? So that’s
Part one. Part two is, okay, what if I have all the credentials? Like I am a full blown expert and I have all the letters behind my name to prove it and I spent all the money to do it. And time. And time. Like I have got all the things and yet it’s not really working for me. So those are the two categories. What can each of those category of people start doing today to help them grow and scale their business?
Rory (22:04)
BULL
All right, so we’ll talk about the first person who has the experience and maybe not the former credentials. This person struggles the most with imposter syndrome. They doubt whether or not they’ve earned the right to do it. And I would argue that…
If you’ve walked the path and overcome it yourself, you are as qualified as anyone else in the world to teach what you’ve done and to teach the way that you’ve done it. And that’s why we say you serve the person you once were. And so you need to know that because nobody cares about the customers don’t care about the credentials they care about. Can you help them? And if you’ve been through it personally, then you can help them.
And that makes you really, really qualified. Now what I would lean into if I don’t have the formal credentials, there’s two things we always encourage people we teach this in our expert bio lesson inside of phase one, course one, finding your brand DNA expert bio, names and numbers, names of people you know, names or names of people that you’ve helped names of organizations you’ve worked with. So so names of customers, if you can use any type of recognizable name.
of a university you went to media outlets you’ve been featured in stages that you’ve spoken on specific names of organizations or people that you’ve been associated with. You’re drafting off the credibility of those names, make sure they’re legit and you’re not lying and making stuff up. But the other one is numbers. And this one is specific for people who lack formal credentials is maybe you didn’t go to a fancy named college, maybe you haven’t worked for a fancy named company, maybe you don’t have fancy named clients. But if you’re a real expert, you have numbers.
What numbers am I talking about? Numbers that quantify how many years you’ve been studying this. How many people have you helped? How many hours have you put into it? How many articles have you done? How many people, clients have you helped? Names and numbers, I would really lean into that for that person.
AJ (24:22)
Okay, I love that. I’m gonna give an alternate. Love all of that. I would say the alternate to that is to lean in heavily into your story. I would double down on my story and targeting to the bullseye, to like that little tiny red dot in the bullseye of who am I going after?
Rory (24:33)
Yeah.
AJ (24:47)
And as you were talking, it made me think about how we hired our executive life coach.
And I kind of owned the task of doing all the interviews. And I was looking at all different types of different organizations who are very well known, who had well credentialed executive coaches, life coaches. And one of the things that I kept finding in all of that is like, man, they just seem like they all have it too together. And I was in a place in our business where I’m like, I don’t, I know I won’t show up authentically talking to someone.
who their entire story is, I’ve done it right every step of the way. And I was like, I probably went through six or seven different like, you know, sample calls, sample interviews with all these different companies. I was like, I was like, they’re, they’re, they’re too good. They’ve never, they’ve never fallen off the pedestal. And the reason that we picked our executive coach is because he was so authentic with his story of how he was at this certain position, made some choices.
really fell from graces, ⁓ lost a lot, had to go rebuild ⁓ and reset it. And he’s like, I’ve been through the fire and I know how to help you get to their side. And it was like, no, I need someone who’s been through the fire. I want someone who’s was here and then here and then came back here. Like I need someone who’s walked the walk who knows exactly how I feel. Where am I right now? And who’s on the other side. And it wasn’t his credentials.
It wasn’t the numbers or the names. I didn’t care. didn’t even ask. It was like, no, you’ve been exactly where I am and you’re somewhere I want to be. You’re the guy. And so I would lean in heavily to the story of your most powerfully positioned to serve the person you once were. Right. And that’s just knowing what problem you solve. What’s the cause of that? What’s your unique message and how you can get people through it? What are the payoffs and go knowing who you’re going after?
And I just think about how I hired our executive life coach, no names, no numbers, no credentials. I didn’t ask. I just knew the story and I knew what was mine. And so we hired him. So I would just also encourage you to lean into your story, lean into the thing that you’ve been through, lean into the thing that you’ve made it through. You know, what is the challenge that you’ve overcome? Uh, and who’s the person you serve? And that would be the alternate to not to negate what you said, but in addition to that, drive that home.
Rory (27:11)
Yeah. And if you struggle to tell your story and understand your uniqueness, your brand positioning statement, all those things, that’s what we do. So go to freebrandcall.com slash podcast, you can request a call with us for free. We’ll talk you through it. We’ll spend an hour understanding your story and ⁓ knowing where you are and we’ll create a little custom journey for where you can go to take your personal brand next. And part of that may or may not include ⁓ working with us and letting us support you. So check that out freebrandcall.com slash podcast.
AJ (27:16)
So we do.
Rory (27:41)
But I will double down for both categories. for both categories, whether you have the credentials or you don’t, I would actually double tap on what you said about sharing your personal story. double tap, tap, tap. If you ⁓
AJ (27:42)
because of the other category. Let’s hit the other category.
Rory (28:01)
I think this is also a sobering thing for people to realize if you’ve spent so much time and money having the formal credentials, those are not going to connect with people as much as your personal story or even the stories of your clients.
AJ (28:14)
Well, even if the credentials matter, the story is what differentiates you from everyone else who has the same credentials.
Rory (28:21)
It is in the story is what creates connection. And it’s like, what are credentials credentials give you credibility. But the story is what creates connection, connection creates trust and trust must happen before a transaction. So I think the story is really powerful. Honestly, I think that’s something that you and I don’t do enough of is sharing our personal stories and our stories of like,
where we come from and things. I mean, we share a lot of client stories and we dabble in the stories. that’s one thing I’ll speak for myself to say I need to get better at sharing more of my story. And I think I fit in the category of someone’s like, I did get an MBA, I was valedictorian, like, I have done national research studies, I did write a bunch of books like
AJ (29:08)
I disagree with that because I don’t talk about any of my credentials because I don’t have any. I don’t talk about them at all.
Rory (29:16)
Whatever,
There’s a strategy. Just don’t have any credentials, then you won’t have to worry about talking about it. I mean, ultimately, what matters most is talking about your prospects story and your prospects dream and your prospects life.
AJ (29:23)
It saves so much money.
You got
to be relatable to the person that you’re serving and they got to believe that you’re in it for them. And I think that that really matters the motive and that matters. All right, we did talk about this other one. I don’t want to run out of time. So what if you do have the credentials? They’re not they’re not doing the thing for you.
Rory (29:50)
Yeah, you got one of my favorite quotes is from a guy named Larry Wingate. And he said, at the end of the day, business is very simple. You have to have a really good product. And you have to ask a lot of people to buy it. And there’s a really good chance that if you have a lot of credentials, you have a really good product. You know what you’re talking about, you spent your life researching it. There’s also a really good chance you’re not asking enough people to buy it.
And you are probably hiding using research and creation and testing and validation as a advanced form of creative avoidance of not getting out and telling the people about what you do and sharing what you have with the world. And so that’s where you need help. And that’s one particular group that we really specialize in helping is overcoming some of that call reluctance that feels
AJ (30:38)
What’s
one thing that person could start doing today? That’s one thing outside of requesting a call. You’re saying? Yeah, like if they’re kind of hiding behind their credentials and they’re going, yeah, I’ve done all the work. I’ve done all the research. I do have that. Like I am an expert.
Rory (30:44)
to generate more business.
They should be speaking for free everywhere. Everywhere. Like literally think of yourself as chicken on a stick is the metaphor we use at the food court, right? Or at Whole Foods. It’s like people just need to sample you. And you probably are a little bit reluctant to sell. And that’s probably because you’re so used to being successful. The idea of rejection just terrifies you. ⁓ And so one of the ways
to kind of go around that, right? We can talk about going through that at a different time. But one of the ways to temporarily go around that is to go teach what you know for free everywhere, everywhere, podcasts, going live on social, virtual webinars, pre-recorded things, YouTube videos, Instagram, like stop trying to be perfect and just go teach what you know for free. And then tell people, hey, if you want help applying this to your organization or to your individual life, email me and request a call.
Like it is that simple. Not simple, but and there’s an emotional element here that is really hard. really, want to sink in on because again, the more successful you’ve been at school, and these types of things, which there’s a very like black and white do this thing, get this grade, get the, you know, get the degree, get the diploma, whatever. When you get into the human side of entrepreneurship, and sales and rejection,
AJ (31:49)
Not easy.
Rory (32:16)
It’s a very scary place for that person to go.
AJ (32:20)
That’s a good transition
⁓ to our community question, because every episode we take questions that were submitted by our community at Brand Builders Group. They get voted on and we pick one to share an answer on the podcast today. And what you were just saying is very complimentary to the question of today. And we’re going to wrap up with this. So this is from James who says, I have an MBA, 20 years of corporate strategy experience and a real track record of helping companies grow significantly. But I feel invisible on
line compared to coaches with half of my experience and a fraction of my results. I keep thinking I just need to explain my background better but it’s not working. What am I actually doing wrong and how do I flip the switch?
Rory (33:07)
I he says it right here. I think I just need to explain my background better. That’s not why anyone buys, right? Spoken like someone who’s worked really hard and built a real, and I feel for James because this is what it feels like to be a mission-driven messenger, to feel like the world’s best kept secret is like, I’ve paid my dues, why is nobody buying from me? And it’s because honestly-
AJ (33:30)
It’s
even I’ve paid my dues. It’s like I help companies get real results. Like I can help you.
Rory (33:37)
but it’s a little bit self-centered. And that’s the thing you gotta be careful of is how to explain my background better. It’s self-centered. It’s how do you share your story in a way that people relate with it? And how do you ask questions that make other people feel important and where they come to their own realization that you have a method that can help them? I think it’s as simple as that.
AJ (33:58)
Yeah, would just, know, a couple quick quick things to add to that. It’s like, it has nothing to do with you explaining your background better. It’s helping you become an advocate of the problem you solve. Right? If you’ve helped so many companies have monumental success, what was the problem that you saw for them? Like, what was it? What was the problem? Like, because if they have it, so do many other prospects.
So do many other companies. have to become a screaming advocate of the problem that you solve. A lot of people know they have a problem. They’re not often aware of why they have the problem, right? And so that’s what we call the cause, right? There’s a problem, right? A lot of people are aware like, hey, like I’m in financial debt. Like I have a problem. They don’t understand why they’re in debt. It’s because they keep spending when they shouldn’t. Like, why are you doing that? I’m trying to keep up with the Joneses.
I’m comparing myself to everyone else and you you’ve got to identify what that is and then you have to help people know it’s like I cannot only identify your problem. I can tell you why you have that problem and I have solution to fix the problem. So it’s not about your background. It’s like I know the problem. I know why you have it and I know how to solve it. Request a call with me right? So I think it’s less about your background and it’s more about you got problems. I know how to fix them. Let’s talk.
Rory (35:04)
there
And if you feel like James…
that you are the best kept secret and not enough people are buying from you. We know how to fix that problem. We should talk request a call with us free brand call.com slash podcast. In the meantime, if you’re not ready to talk to us just yet, just keep tuning in. Keep tuning in share this episode with other friends and family and other entrepreneurs and executives and other experts that you know, if you think they’ll enjoy it. And if you haven’t yet, please rate and review this podcast wherever you listen to it and come back next time. We’ll see you on the wealthy and well known podcast.
AJ (35:58)
Credentials tell people what you did, but a story tells them why you did
Rory (36:03)
It’s not like anyone is out there going, whoa, certified twice, take my money.
WWK Ep 023: Your Logo Can’t Shake Hands: Why Founders Must Be the Face of the Brand
RORY (00:00)
analogy that I’ve landed on that’s really helped me with this is launching a rocket ship into outer space. And you go when you’re first launching a rocket,
like I think it’s like 80 % of the fuel is used just getting it out of the Earth’s orbit, right? Is this this gravitational thrust. And when you’re launching a company, that’s exactly how it is. It’s like getting it off the ground is so difficult, you have to do everything in your power to get it up.
AJ (00:28)
Ready?
When’s the last time that you bought a service from a company just because of its logo? And then ask yourself this, when’s the last time that you bought from someone that you know, liked and trusted? Here’s the difference between those two questions. We don’t buy from companies. We buy from people. We don’t buy logos and colors and typography and iconography. We buy trust and we…
by reputation. And that’s why for those of you who are hiding behind your company’s logo, thinking that’s what’s gonna help your company grow and you’re putting all your money into branding and advertising and marketing your company, those days are over. We are in the face forward era of why being the face of your company matters. And we’re gonna talk about exactly how to get you from out behind the logo and into the spotlight to help your business grow today.
RORY (01:30)
This is an important lesson for entrepreneurs, a lot of entrepreneurs who do hide behind their logo. And I want to I want to ask you this, right? So as the CEO of Brand Builders Group, you’ve got a lot of things on your plate. You’ve got a lot of things vying for your attention that do have are not the things that have to do with you being a face forward part of our business. Yes. But you also don’t particularly love social media. You also don’t particularly love like online
networking, you also don’t listen to like a ton of podcasts yourself, but yet you prioritize some portion of time inside of your schedule to make sure that your face is a part of everything brand builders group. How do you justify doing that when there’s so many other things that are vying for your attention? And how do you like make that calculation and consideration?
AJ (02:26)
It’s a genuine discipline. Today is a great example. We had time set aside to record podcasts today. This is the last thing that my brain was telling me that I should be spending my time doing. After three and a half hours stuck in front of financials trying to troubleshoot some things for Q1 close, justifying why I should go leave the finance team and disarray.
and come over here and record some content, my logical brain said, that does not make sense. My get it done, type A, task rabbit mentality was not telling me this is where I should be spending my time. The reason though that I do schedule for it and I do make the time for it is because I actually believe
that having an executive face forward presence of the company makes a significant difference and why people choose to buy from us, why people choose to work for us and why people actually choose to stay.
both employees and customers of Brand Builders Group. And if I spent all my time behind the scenes ⁓ working on spreadsheets or putting strategies together and I was never out in front, two things would happen. One, I would lose touch with what our customers, our community actually needed.
I’m not going to learn that in numbers on a spreadsheet. I’m not going to learn that in just the financials. I’ve learned that from being with our customers. I learned that from figuring out what problems they have, what needs they have, what they love, what they don’t want, they want more of what they want less of. And I don’t need to hear it third party. like personally, I like to hear it direct because I don’t have any filtering. The second thing is that if I’m always behind the scenes, I also lose touch with our team.
And they lose touch with me. Both things happen. And so I don’t get to talk to every single team member every single day, but this is a way to multiply my efforts, multiply our thoughts, our beliefs, our values, not just to our team members, which I do hope they listen, but I don’t know if they do. ⁓ but also our community, right? It’s a way of going, Hey, you don’t get to know the behind the scenes, everyday life of me. But when I choose to come out behind all of the
multiple calls and KPI reviews and month in close reviews and all the other things that happen. This is a chance for me to one help make sure that values and beliefs aligned individuals can find us and vice versa, but also team members. Then the benefit for me is that I’m not just looking at data. Data tells one half of a really important business story. People tell the other.
and you gotta have an equal balance of team member input and customer input to balance out the numbers. And that’s why I make time for it even when it’s highly inconvenient, even when timing definitely doesn’t make sense. But it’s like anything, if you don’t schedule it, most likely it won’t happen. And if this wasn’t on the calendar today, I guarantee you.
It would have been the first thing cut from my, just go make some content when you have a break. There would have been no break. There would have been no content. So it’s scheduling and prioritizing the thing that you believe will move the needle.
RORY (06:00)
So how do you, if you’re an entrepreneur and you have been sort of leaning into putting yours to your company brand and hey, I don’t need to be seen, it’s not about me, it’s all about, all that people need to know about is the company. And then whether it’s through our national research study, which if you go to freebrandstudy.com slash podcast, you can download where we talk about the data that proves how important.
it is for an executive to be seen or just through kind of what you’re sharing here or just through intuition that you go, okay, I do buy into that the idea that people don’t buy from businesses or companies they buy from people. And I do I do want to start building my personal brand. How do you separate your personal brand from your business brand? And how do you draw those lines? ⁓ How do you delineate? Like, what do you share personally versus professionally and how much
Do you share of your personal life? ⁓
AJ (06:58)
Okay, those are
a lot of questions. You pick one question. was 36 questions. Pick one.
RORY (07:05)
So how do you start building a personal brand if you’ve been, I’ll say hiding behind, solely behind a company brand? How do you go ahead and start building a personal brand without confusing your customer?
AJ (07:19)
I wouldn’t start with my customers. I would start with my employees. Yes, building a personal brand. I think for most people who’ve been hiding behind their company logo, they’ve been doing the same thing internally within their company. They haven’t been really allowing themselves to be known by their team of employees either.
RORY (07:23)
Building a personal brand. What does that mean?
AJ (07:39)
Right? They come up and they’re like, I’m the boss. I’m the leader. I have to know. I have to have the answer. I have to be the one to have it all together. I don’t think a lot of employers come in and talk a lot about their personal life or their personal beliefs or personal values. I don’t think they’re testing out content or thought leadership with their teams. I don’t think they’d, I think more people have a proclensity to actually record a video and share it with strangers than they do their own friends and family.
I find that to be true in most cases. And I bet if you asked yourself when’s the last time that you had an in-depth conversation with a friend or a family member about what you do versus how much you talk about it on social media, on videos, I think the percentage would be widely skewed towards talking to strangers than friends and family.
RORY (08:30)
So you’re saying that if an owner is not building their personal brand as part of building their business, they’re also probably not sharing much of who they are with their own team member internally. You think that’s usually going to be the case.
AJ (08:43)
I ⁓ almost always. And I would say you start building your personal brand by making sure that you have a personal brand within your own company. We just got off the heels of one of our twice annual speaker showcase events at BBG. And one of our amazing clients, Steven Hoschka, had this amazing quote, which I will be saying for the rest of my business career, which is, culture is the mindset.
of the company. And I think that a lot of companies that lack culture lack a shared mindset because the owner isn’t actually creating a culture that is from their mindset. I think a lot of companies have this culture that they’re like, well, this is what I want the company to be. But sometimes it’s even disconnected from who they are.
And I think that one of the things that entrepreneurs can do to start building their personal brand is just to start actually within the company of like, do my own employees, do my own team members, does my own executive team really know who I am? Do they know how hard it was when I started the company or did they just know the company today? Like, do they really know what I did before I started the company?
Did they know how hard I worked? Did they know why this was important to me? Do they know why I’m still here? Do they know what keeps me up at night? Do they know what my dreams are for the company? Do they know what my dreams are for my role and where my gifts are? Do they know where my challenges are? I don’t think most leaders share that. I definitely don’t think most entrepreneurs are sharing that. And I think the first place to start is you’ve got to build a personal brand within your company, your team members, your employees.
need to know who you are first. And I think that’s a great place to one. Well, one, it’s easier because you have a captive audience, right? You can schedule a team meeting and like, I got a keynote right here. Like you got a captive audience scheduling an all company meeting. ⁓ You already have a captive audience. It’s like, why not start with being like, hey, I’m going to start my very first newsletter just to my own company.
RORY (10:56)
help me understand, okay, if I’m an owner, how do I even think about what’s the difference between a personal brand and a company brand? Like, I understand my company brand, I have a logo, it’s my business. How would I, how do I define a personal brand? Because my identity is probably connected in many ways to the company I’ve built. you know,
AJ (11:19)
Well, I we say this all the time, right? The definition of a personal brand is the formalization, digitization and monetization of your reputation, right? So your personal brand is just the. Formulized reputation that you want to have, right? A simpler way of saying that is your personal brand is what people think about when they think of you. And I think the reason I would say the best place to start for entrepreneurs is within your own company is ask yourself or even ask your
team. What do you think about when you think of me? Again, you have a captive audience where you can make people respond and be like, does that actually align with how I want to be known? I think that’s a first gauge, a first point of going like, hey, if I really want to do this externally, I have to start internally. It’s got to be known with the people that I spend most of my time with in order for me to help get it known by a whole bunch of other people. So I think part of it, it’s like personal brand is just
Are you known for the thing that you want to be known for? What do people think of when they think of you? A company brand, and I say this all the time, it’s like a company is just a collection of other people, right? But how many times have you bought from a company and you’ve had an incredibly inconsistent experience just simply based on who you worked with? Sure. Right?
And therein lies what Stephen was talking about with culture is the mindset of the company and mindset is a shared set of values that starts top down. Right. But I think a lot of times we don’t do that. We want other people to do it.
And it’s like, that’s a great way to start. But I also just find it’s like, it’s a great way to test content and share things and see what resonates and make sure this is the thing that I want to go take public to make sure that it does have a connection point to my company. And the difference of a company and your personal brand, we think about an entrepreneur is your company is just the business model of your personal brand. It’s not a completely different thing that you’re going off and building. And I think that’s where people get really confused and they get it wrong. If you take
Either you or myself, we both have independent personal brands, right? Of course we do. We have our own reputations. We have our own messages, our own life experiences, our own life stories, but our business model is the same, which is brand builders group. My personal brand’s connection to brand builders group is that it is my business model. So my personal brand, regardless of what I’m talking about, is just helping generate awareness to brand builders group.
RORY (13:53)
a
lot of executives, particularly at large companies, assume that if someone’s building their personal brand, they equate that to like their moonlighting. It’s a separate, it’s a side job. It’s a different thing.
AJ (14:04)
PNB, but it doesn’t have
RORY (14:06)
And it certainly can be which can be can be an issue. But if they’re just directing all of that attention and awareness back to the company, it’s like each person is a billboard for the company, each person is 100 % is an advertisement for the company, like they’re out there in the community, which is like, well, they should be that anyways, to their friends and family. It’s like, people ask, where do you work? What do you do? And it’s like, that is an opportunity for every
team member to be a contributor to lead generation and marketing for
AJ (14:35)
It’s
like every person’s bio has what their role is and where they work. Like, I mean, it is a walking billboard. I say this all the time. It’s like, no one ever has ever hired a company to be on a podcast. Companies don’t speak on podcasts. Human beings do. No one ever has booked a company to be featured in media.
It’s the owner of the company, the founder of the company, the executive of the company. No one has ever hired a company to come speak on their stage. They hire people from companies to come speak on those stages. And so I think that’s a huge part of what we need to recognize is a company isn’t hired to sit on a panel. A company doesn’t get the community service award. Those are people, right? And people make up companies. And so for entrepreneurs,
Really what you have to think about is like, are the walking advertisement for your company, for your mission, for your values, for what you believe in, for your customers, for the service, for your team. You are the walking marketing campaign.
RORY (15:40)
Same, same for a nonprofit, church like.
AJ (15:42)
All of
You have got to be the thing that is just, you know, bubbling over ⁓ with everything that is your company. And your company also needs to be a reflection of you, right? Like you got into it for a reason, right? There’s got to be a connection of what you do and who you are. ⁓ And a lot of that has to do with like, there’s some sort of belief that you have, ⁓ a customer segment that you want to serve, a service that you just deeply believe that matters.
in the world and you just got to find that connection and become a massive advocate for it. And I believe that’s how entrepreneurs build their personal brands that thus help their companies grow.
RORY (16:26)
What would you say to an executive who’s who is just a little bit nervous about being on camera and being on stages and being out in front of people? So if they buy into this idea of like, yeah, I think me broadcasting more of my personal convictions around why we do what we do and who we want to be could be valuable for the company in many different ways. But I don’t love being the center of attention. I don’t feel comfortable on camera. I don’t really like even speaking on stages like
Do you think it’s so valuable they should get over that or like what would you be advice to that?
AJ (17:01)
I think there’s workarounds for every single one of those. Another reason why I say start with your own internal team first. ⁓ A part of that is practice. part of that is ⁓ anything that you do for the first time is a little awkward, uncomfortable, and scary. It only gets less awkward, less scary, less uncomfortable the more you do it. And yeah, you probably won’t be good at any of it the first time you do it. Who’s good at anything the very first time? First podcast probably won’t be as good as the 100th. First time speaking, it’s not going to be as good as the 100th.
that’s just the process of doing it. But I think the thing that I have found most people think is they have pigeonholed what it means to be in media, be on a podcast, going out and being a representative in the community. And it’s like, if you’re like, I have stage fright, I can’t speak on stages, well, then be a panelist, right? Be on a panel and just let people ask you questions. I have found most people can do that exceptionally well, if it’s in their industry, if it’s in their space.
They have massive expertise, but the idea of standing on stage by themselves talking to a big audience, but find your work around. How about doing a Q and a, how about being on a panel? So same thing.
RORY (18:12)
think it’s powerful for an executive to do anything where they’re having to overcome fear because it’s like it’s a communication to your team like I’m learning new things, I’m struggling with new things, I’m dealing with change.
AJ (18:26)
But I do think it’s a it’s a leader goes first mentality. If I’m asking my sales team to get out there and show up and knock on doors, then I got to be willing to do that. If I want my team to go out there and generate leads, then I got to be willing to do that. That doesn’t mean that’s 100 % of my time and focus, but I got to be willing. Be like, you know, project Maverick. We talk about that a lot. Like I love Top Gun Maverick. And when Tom Cruise at the very end of the movies, like I got to jump in the jet and show these other pilots that it came
be done. I have to prove it. I have to go first to show them this can be done. We as entrepreneurs get the opportunity to do that for our teams but also for our customers.
RORY (19:08)
What about ⁓ here’s a viable concern that I think entrepreneurs sometimes have and I don’t know that I have a great answer for this and I’m curious to hear what you would say. The valuation of a company, one of the things that drives down the valuation of a company is if a company is dependent on the founder, the more dependent on the founder, the less valuable the company is. And so they equate, if I build a personal brand to help grow the business, then that
ties the valuation of the company more to me and I want that to be separate. Do you think that’s true? If so, why or why not? And how would you how would you think about that? And then and I’ll share I have an analogy for this that I’ve kind of come around to over the years.
AJ (19:52)
You know, I would say the realness of that is the fact that anyone who is going to be buying your company is most likely going to keep you on board for one to three years for that exact same reason. They know how valuable you are and it’s why they retain you as a part of the contract.
It’s like, then there’s a phasing out. There is a filtering out. I know very few exits where the owner sold and was like, I’m out 24 hours later. There is a phasing out because there is trust and value that has to be transferred. And the trust transfer happens because you transfer the trust as the owner.
And so I’d say one, that’s just a big nonsensical thing of like, well, you’re going to be retained anyways to ensure all things go aligned. Otherwise all your employees would bail, all your customers would bail. So you’re going to be retained anyways. There’s going to be a phasing out naturally. But the other thing I would say is like, that would only be a concern if you’re trying to scale something to sell it, right? And if that’s the only thing you’re doing, it’s like, well, guess what? The quickest way to scale it is to build trust.
And so I would say one is like, doesn’t matter how you cut that pie. It doesn’t really make sense when you talk about what’s really going to happen in an exit.
RORY (21:09)
Yeah, I think you go…
whether you build a personal brand or not, if someone’s buying your company, it’s because the value you’ve created, which is largely because of you. That’s right. And the faster you can grow a company, the more valuable it is. And if a personal brand is something that’s going to accelerate the growth of that company, then you should do anything you can do. Anything you can do to speed up the growth of the company is a good idea. The analogy that I’ve landed on that’s really helped me with this is launching a rocket ship into outer space. And you go when you’re first launching a rocket,
like I think it’s like 80 % of the fuel is used just getting it out of the Earth’s orbit, right? Is this this gravitational thrust. And when you’re launching a company, that’s exactly how it is. It’s like getting it off the ground is so difficult, you have to do everything in your power to get it up. And so you have these rocket boosters that are on the side to launch it into outer space. And then once you clear the Earth’s orbit, those boosters kind of fall off and go away. And so what I would say is like, man,
When you’re launching a company, you have to do everything in your power to make it succeed, anything that will help you grow, survive, thrive, sustain, it’s like you must do it. And so if your personal brand is that and the data suggests very strongly and clearly that it is that you should be using that to grow it.
And then, you know, if there’s an exit on the horizon, or you reach a certain point where you’re starting to think about that, it’s like, okay, then maybe you could think about like, kind of breaking that off. ⁓ But I think you’re on it too, which is if if you sell the company, no matter if you have a personal brand or not, they’re still going to have that issue. So what difference does it make? It doesn’t. And even if you keep the company,
You know a company we’re selling looks a lot like a company worth keeping we say that a lot is to go at some point you need to make sure the business is going to operate without you right but here you and I are going we’re going to use our personal brands to grow this company and get it going and Maybe one day it could survive completely without us. That would be a good thing That would be a healthy thing, but there’s no reason not to like increase the viability of success for everybody by by doing it so
Either way, think it’s like, think that’s mostly just an excuse.
AJ (23:27)
I think there’s a couple of things that I would just encourage entrepreneurs, small business owners to remember is like building a personal brand ⁓ has four amazing components to it that will actually help your company. The first one is it helps with customer acquisition. Then it helps with customer retention. Then it helps with employee acquisition. And it helps with employee retention.
And those are four big components that people just don’t think about. They don’t talk about. And those are four things that a founder.
an entrepreneur should be doing no matter what phase of your business that you’re in, helping acquire customers, retain customers, acquire employees, retain employees. It doesn’t have to be your full-time gig, but it is a part of your gig as the business owner, and building a personal brand helps you multiply and expedite those efforts. It really is about accelerating trust, and the amount of customers that learn about you,
from a panel that you sat on, that doesn’t mean they’re going to run to your company website and buy from you. But they’re like, man, when I need that, I’m going to retain this little bit of information that I heard, or I saw, or I witnessed. Or when your employees start talking about, this is the type of person that runs our company. That matters when I’m
hard things come or hard times come or you need employees, then you put your employee force out there for you to help recruit. Same thing happens with your customer first. When you have a really aligned customer base, they help build more aligned customers. But that only happens when you’re attracting people that
share the same values and beliefs that you do. How can you attract those people? They know that you have them. How do they know you have them? You tell them.
RORY (25:22)
Yep, absolutely. ⁓ Well, I think that’s an important conversation for entrepreneurs and executives to understand. it’s just like, man, in the world today, it’s like whatever you can do to drive revenue. And beyond the data of this, right? So again, if you go to freebrandstudy.com slash podcast, you can download our national research study of ⁓
we invested over $100,000 into this PhD led study to answer some of these questions about how much does it influence, how much does the personal brand of an executive influence the average person’s decision to buy from you, recommend you, work for you, vote for you, hire you, date you, all of the things. But even just common sense is to go, would you rather work for a company
where you knew nothing about any of the people who worked there in senior leadership, or where you felt like you knew the executives of the company you were going to work for.
AJ (26:18)
think of just one teeny tiny story that happened just a couple of weeks ago. ⁓ We were in a finance meeting and I kind of sit as CFO at the current moment of Brand Builders Group and our bookkeeper was asking me as we were hanging up the phone, she goes, how’d you get into being an entrepreneur? And she was like, it just feels like.
You know, you’re a mom, you have two kids, like this is a lot. And I laughed and I said, it’s in my blood. She goes, what do you mean? I thought, oh, I’m a third generation entrepreneur. And she goes, how so? And I said, oh, my grandfather started a company and his wife was his business partner. And then my dad bought out my grandfather and my mom was his business partner. So being business partners with my spouse and running a business is the only thing I’ve ever known. I grew up with all our aunts and uncles
being the employees of my dad’s business and Christmas parties and birthday parties were mixed of company team members and family members and friends. It’s like it’s all I’ve ever known. I don’t even know how to do it any other way. And she laughed and she was like, wow.
That’s so helpful for me to know about you. She goes, that actually makes so many things, makes so much more sense right now, and the way that you choose to run things here. And I was like, yeah. And she goes, I’m so glad that we had that 10 minute chat. And I think a part of it is that’s never come out publicly.
I don’t promote that, but that one little conversation was so helpful for her to go, I just needed to know who you were. I just needed to know where you came from so I can relate to these, you know, conversations where you have such a strong conviction on how it should be. And I’m like, well, that’s because I was raised in this. It’s the only way I know how to do it.
RORY (28:09)
And had you not married such a pretty boy mama’s boy, maybe we’d be in a construction business together. But since you married me, personal brand strategy it is, ladies and gentlemen.
AJ (28:18)
But
it starts, building a personal brand really does start with one-on-one conversations just like that. I love that. No, regardless. Regardless of how, but it’s like those little stories do matter. Helping people get to know you, it matters.
RORY (28:26)
your story.
All right, that’s a good on the topic of community and community questions. This is something that we do on every segment we give our members, our monthly members who are in our program, a chance to ask questions and basically vote them up on what they would like us to answer here on the show. So this question comes from Kevin. He says, I’ve been running a successful accounting firm for 11 years. My company has a strong local reputation, but I want to expand nationally and attract higher end clients.
Everyone keeps telling me I need a personal brand, but I’m genuinely not sure how to separate me from the firm without confusing my current clients or undercutting the business I’ve built. How do I build both at the same time without one hurting the other?
AJ (29:21)
Well, I would start with ⁓ making sure that as you’re building your personal brand, you have a direct connection that the purpose of that is to generate leads for the accounting firm. That’s how you don’t undercut it. It’s like, no, I am going to build my personal brand as the founder of this accounting firm.
And a part of that is, you know, we talk about this all the time, is your most powerfully position to serve the person you once were, right? So what audiences are you speaking to? Hopefully they’d be in the space where you can help people who have accounting needs, right? Because that’s what you’ve been doing. You’ve been serving businesses who rather need fractional support or tax support or whatever it is you’re doing, but it’s like your personal brand.
I think a lot of people get confused with, I have to go start a new business. I have to launch some sort of product or a book. No, you don’t. Most people build their personal brands with intentionality to simply drive leads to their existing business. The second thing people get mistaken all the time is, I have to go build some new audience. No, you don’t.
That’s the hardest, silliest. Don’t do that thing, I can tell you. It’s like, no, you build a personal brand and you start sharing the message with the audience you already have, which are all the clients and all the prospective clients that you’re currently serving. That’s how you go and reach more. That’s how you go from a local brand to a national brand without undercutting either thing.
RORY (30:45)
Yep, I 100 % agree. think the big misconception here you touched on it is that people
inappropriately equate the term personal brand with a business model or a new revenue stream. They go, they, this is inaccurate, but this is what they think. If I’m going to start my personal brand, I need to start making money as a speaker, as a podcaster, as a book writer, as a course creator, as a membership, blah, blah, No, you don’t. In fact, the fastest path to cash is to use your personal brand as a lead generator for your current business.
the most simple, most common, most profitable, and the highest percentage of our clients are just simply using their personal brand as an accelerator for their current business. It’s less like they’re starting a new company, and it’s more like they’re launching a new marketing initiative that funnels into their existing business, a super high powered marketing initiative, which is the personal brand of the founder or executives, multiple executives feeding into
the business. so that’s just a common misconception that people have that leads them astray. And and so I think use your personal brand, talk about what you do, talk about what you believe, talk about your expertise, there is no difference.
AJ (32:02)
and talk about it to the audience, that would be your prospective clients.
RORY (32:06)
Right. And drive, you know, so it’s like, this is not two different things. You shouldn’t be confusing anybody. This is a very aligned like use your personality to drive to drive more revenue and leads into your current business.
Other than that, if you’re like really trying to start a separate business, I wouldn’t call that building a personal brand, I would call that starting a separate business. So I think executives and entrepreneurs should think of it less as like, oh, I’m starting a new business like a personal brand as a business. And you should just think of it as more of I’m using my personality to grow my existing business. Maybe that will help you make the distinction sharper and clearer. So that’s a great question from Kevin, a common one.
AJ (32:51)
Yeah, and I would just encourage for anyone who’s out there listening that you’re an entrepreneur, you’re a small business owner, and you’re going, okay, I’ve heard people say this enough times, I’ve thought it about enough times, maybe I really should explore this, then I would really encourage you to schedule a call with our team and you can go to freebrandcall.com forward slash podcast and request a one hour strategy call to talk about how do I build my personal brand to help grow my business. And that is how it can really help
you as an entrepreneur is to generate leads to funnel them to your existing business so you can grow and scale it. So freebrandcall.com forward slash podcast grab a call and let us help you explore.
RORY (33:33)
And if you know an entrepreneur that is out there who needs to do a better job of building their personal brand or who could have more potential growth for their company, share this episode with them. ⁓ Give us a ⁓ like, a subscribe, comment, review this podcast wherever you’re watching or listening to it. We’re so grateful for you. We’ll catch you next time on the Wealthy and Well-Known Podcast.
AJ (33:55)
Look guys, your logo cannot shake a hand.
RORY (33:59)
We’re not saying your logo is bad. It’s just emotionally unavailable.
WWK Ep 022: Followers Don’t Pay the Bills: The Real Formula for Wealthy & Well Known Brands
RORY (00:00)
A creator’s favorite form of creative avoidance is creating. A creator’s favorite form of creative avoidance is creating. They love to create, create, create, create, and they never tell anyone they exist. And if you’re not willing to go chase and you’re not willing to talk about, if you don’t care so passionately about your calling that you’re not going to share it with anyone, like you’re going to struggle.
What if all of the personal brands that you follow, the ones that seem to be building and growing effortlessly, the ones that are landing the big stages and the big speaking engagements, the big book deals, getting lots of followers, growing their online presence, what if there was a formula that they were following? Well, here’s the thing, they are.
Almost all of them. are very similar patterns and we’re going to talk about them today. Whether those creators know that they’re doing it or not. There are several identifiable, duplicatable systems and formulas that any personal brand can apply. And that’s what we’re here to pull the curtain back on and expose and share with you today. Welcome to the Wealthy and Well-Known Podcast. I’m joined by my wife, business partner, best friend, ⁓ and the CEO of Brand Builders Group, AJ Vadant.
AJ (01:14)
All right, so here’s the first question of the day that we’re going to talk about. What makes a personal brand go viral? And is there a formula that you can actually follow?
RORY (01:27)
Yeah, so I would say that the formula for going viral is watching the formulas that go viral. So basically when you see a video go viral, what we’re seeing today is that right now creators are watching the hook structures, the formats and the patterns that when a video goes viral, it’s because of the structure of the video and the format of the video as much as the framework of the video, right?
It’s not just what you’re saying. It’s not just what you’re teaching. It’s more about how you’re presenting that idea, how you reveal it, how you ⁓ unroll it, and even how you edit the video. So what’s happening is people are seeing a video go viral and then they’re just replicating those formulas.
AJ (02:18)
Let’s pause
there. Let’s talk about what are some of those formulas.
RORY (02:21)
Yeah, so I mean, there’s there’s hundreds of these hook formulas, right? And people talk about them. But like one that’s really popular right now is, if I had to start over from scratch today, and I wanted to achieve blank, here’s exactly what I would do. Right? That’s a really, a really, a really classic one that’s like going viral right now. Another thing that is going viral right now is ⁓ when people are putting multiple videos on the screen. So it’s like, here’s an example of this, here’s an example of this, here’s an example of
We had a video go massively viral, hundreds of thousands of views, ⁓ thousands and thousands of comments and stuff. And it’s exactly that. Here’s this, here’s this, here’s this, here’s this. And it’s not the quality of the content. It’s not the framework. It’s the format. I’m not sure how I feel about all of this, right? But a lot of, think, what is
important to understand and what we do at brand builders group right is we’re dissecting and understanding a lot of these patterns not just for going viral on video going viral on videos like one of our our least valuable concerns because it’s not necessarily what drives revenue and trust long term but it is a great example of to go everything we do at brand builders group where you go how to become a best-selling author
How do you sell high dollar offers? How do you fill out rooms? How do you speak on the biggest stages? It’s a formula. It’s always a formula. It’s all about pattern recognition. And so I think it’s one of the things you could say, what do you really do at Brand Builders Group is like we identify the patterns, we then reconstruct them in a pragmatic way that anyone can follow. And then we teach them in all these different areas of a business.
AJ (03:59)
So I think what would be really helpful for everyone listening, me included, I think one of the things that a lot of people talk about are the patterns. They talk about the algorithm. They don’t really tell the end user like, go try this, go do this. And I think a part of it is you have to try many things to see what’s gonna click with your audience. But if someone was listening today going, okay, great, give me the three formulas to go and try online, what would they be? So I think you listed two of them, right?
if I had to start all over I would do this. Yeah. The second one would be multiple screens of going like give people the images of multiple things that you’re showing all at the same time.
RORY (04:41)
So the real answer to your question is the one thing that I would do is I would follow the top creators in your space. I would look at which of their videos are over indexing, meaning they have way more views than they had followers, right? So this is an important thing is to go, if a video has 100,000 views, is that an over indexing video? And the answer is, it depends on how many followers they have. If you have 5 million followers in your video, got 100,000 views, not so much.
5000 followers and you got 100,000 views. That is a rich, there’s a rich idea, there’s a rich format, there’s a rich opportunity there. So the the, the formula, it’s not the best thing is not for me to just give you a formula. It’s different in every space. The the granular overarching formula is follow the top creators, pay attention to what’s working for them, and then replicate your own version of that.
And that is particularly in the space of viral online video, we’re talking carousel, well, not even video, but just carousel posts, reels, YouTube, you’re going to see if you watch closely all the top creators, that is what they are doing. And it’s a fascinating study because it tells you that the psychology
is very consistent of the human brain and very repeatable. And so you can go I can watch what a fitness trainer did to go viral. And mostly what we’re copying is the hook structure the first three seconds. Now when we teach what is a hook, a hook is anything you do or say in the first three seconds to get people to keep watching. That’s how we define it because I’ve never seen anyone define it. Right. So that’s how we define it.
And a great one example of a hook structure that we teach is the I want blank test is to say how would your viewer answer the question I want blank and then tell them in this video, I’m going to teach you and fill in whatever however they would answer the I want blank. That would be a generic hook structure that works really well that if you don’t want to do all this other stuff, you go, just use the I want blank test. But now people are even using AI to track all of these patterns and go,
this woman hosts a cooking show and she said, you know, here’s five things I would have learned, I wish I knew when I first started cooking. And you take out the word cooking, but here’s five things I wish I learned when I first started speaking. And then that’s it. So the psychological structures, it’s about the pattern is noticing the pattern.
AJ (07:15)
So I think one of the things that would be helpful is to talk about what are some of the other formulas, right? So you’ve got a format formula, which is kind of what you’ve been talking about and the different types of format. Would you say that there’s any specific formulas to follow when it comes to duration or any way to end the video, captions or some other, are there some other formulas that we should talk about that would be helpful for anyone listening today?
RORY (07:41)
⁓ There’s one other very advanced thing that I would share that I think is universal enough to everybody listening and that is that if you have four parts in a video, okay, so say you have four points, it’s a YouTube video and there’s four points. Point number one should be shorter than point number two. Point number two should be shorter than point number three. Point number three should be shorter than point number four, meaning
When people feel like they’re making progress early, they’re more likely to stay. If they feel like it’s dragging on, they tend to leave. But if you go, okay, you hook them in the first three seconds, and then what you’re seeing in a lot of these other YouTube videos is hooks within the video. So the most important hook is the opening hook. But then you say, hey, you mentioned something like, there’s three ways to create
You know, there’s three patterns that every creator needs to know to go viral. And the first one’s right now. And I’ll tell you the second one in a sec in just a minute. That is a hook inside of a hook. It’s going I’ll tell you the second one in a second. I’ve just told them about something else that is about to come. And that’s what kind of the definition of a hook is. So that is another sort of psychological pattern that we’re seeing pretty consistently is this idea that you’ve got
shorter points earlier in the video. There’s something going on that when people feel like they’re making progress, like if you can get them through the first few chapters, then they’re likely to stay longer. And then they give you more permission to give you more of their time basically as time goes on.
AJ (09:21)
What about anything in your opinion with reels versus stories versus carousels versus all the other things when you think about different formulas patterns and formats?
RORY (09:34)
Yeah, I mean, another carousel thing that’s going viral, and by the way, I would not consider myself an expert on this. This is not where we spend a lot of our time, which is what I think we can get to is to go, a good question is to go, why don’t we spend more of our time studying this stuff? And because this, lot of this stuff to me points more to vanity metrics than it does to profitability. But inside of this area, which we do spend some time studying, another really common
thing that’s performing really well right now is your backstory. Like your personal story. People are tuning in to where did you start and if it’s a carousel post, it’s like pictures, right? So I’m working on one of these right now where it’s like I’m taking pictures from all of these different areas of my life, where the picture is worth a thousand words. And it says, here’s where I started. Here’s what I wanted to do. Here’s where I struggled.
This is what was low. This is what I did. This is what I learned. Here’s what happened. And now I can teach you comment blah, blah, blah below for the opt in those personal stories are performing super well right now. I think about that’s a great carousel post formula.
And I think the other thing that is performing well, you know, lot of people will say you don’t sell on your feed, you sell in your stories. That’s where and really we say the dollars are in the DMS. That’s really where sales happens. But like even lead generation happens more in the stories. So you attract them with the content on your feed, you nurture them inside of your stories and you convert them in your DMS or on a free call. But inside stories is a lot of where customer testimonials are being shared. That’s another really common thing of going you need one
thousand customer testimonials, and you post a couple every day inside the stories. Because when people find you from your feed content, they go, wow, this was valuable, who is this person? And then they follow you closely, they go in your stories, and then they’re seeing, whoa, you’ve helped this person get a result, and this person helped them get a result, and this person helped get a result. And now I’m interested in engaging in potentially buying.
AJ (11:42)
So for the
person who’s listening going, that feels like a lot of work. I felt like a lot to do. Uh, how, what do I, what, do you want me to do here? I have a, I have a full-time gig. I have a full-time job. Like who’s supposed to film me? Who’s supposed to edit all this? Who’s supposed to know all these formulas? Who’s supposed to know all these formats? What would you say to that?
RORY (12:02)
I would say yeah, you’re right. It’s a lot of work. Like there’s no free lunch as grandma used to say, right? Like everything that looks effortless is not effortless. So there is a whole lot of people getting sold a bunch of garbage because on the surface it’s like, ⁓ you know, I’m a stay at home. I’m a mom of four and I run my own business and I do it all through Instagram and AI comment this below and sign up for my webinar. And then they’ll buy something that’s just like
garbage because the reality is this is someone who is working 12 hours a day or they have a team or they’re spending a bunch of money on ads or like it’s like there there is their excellence is never an accident. It’s never an accident.
AJ (12:46)
I would say even that it’s not even excellence. It’s like even the effort and all of this is not to be taken lightly to come up with the content to learn the formulas to just even follow the other top creators in your space. All of that is an extraordinarily large commitment of time, energy, money and resources. If this is what you’re really trying to do. And I think that’s one of the things I just kind of wanted to highlight is
And I love the idea of like, yes, follow the top people in your field and then realize as you’re following them, they have a team. Like they have someone following them. ⁓ They have video editors, they have graphic designers. Like that is, it’s not apples to apples.
RORY (13:31)
So I would love to talk about this question. How do I know if my personal brand is actually working? What metrics should I actually be tracking? So if we’re saying like, look, I can show you a list of people who’ve gone viral who struggle to pay their bills. And I can show you a list of people who you’ve never seen a video of theirs online and they fly in private jets. And it’s just ironic the world that we live in is there’s a whole lot of like, you know, drawn to the vanity stuff.
And so I think this is topic that we should talk about is what are the metrics that I should be tracking? What are the actual measurable KPIs that are going to lead to dollars?
AJ (14:13)
Well, ironically, none of those, in my opinion, would be found on social media. In my books, the actual metrics would be number of calls being generated and run, which could come from social media, but those are a lot harder to come by.
RORY (14:31)
But we would
rather have a video with a hundred views that drove five free calls than a video with 50,000 views that drove no free calls.
AJ (14:39)
all day long, every day. It would be the number of clients being converted. It would be number of clients that are retaining. It’d be the number of referrals being sent by clients because then it’s like proof that your work is actually working. would count client testimonials as a KPI because it’s proof of what’s working. Number of presentations that you’re giving and presentations could be keynotes on stages, workshops in your local community,
podcast interviews, it’s whatever you’re doing to get your message out into the world. ⁓ Those would be the actual metrics that I would be looking at. It’s like how many calls are being generated, calls being run, clients being converted, clients being retained, referrals being sent. And then on top of that, it would be like, what are all the other things you’re doing to generate the calls, which are your presentations?
RORY (15:12)
going on.
Yeah, it’s funny, I literally just got off of a live training with our members. And I was we were talking about the success tracker. So this tool that we created that tracks basically the eight core metrics that every personal brand needs to drive for behavior, and then the four results that they measure. it’s it’s like, how many emails have you added to your list? So that that’s to me is like, the most digital thing to care about is like, how many email subscribers, but even that is super misleading, because it’s like,
AJ (15:55)
emails.
RORY (16:04)
you can add free emails all day from all over the place that like have nothing to do with the people that are actually going to do business with you. But that is a first metric. Sure. As going emails, then you know how many phone numbers you collect, how many free calls requested, how many free calls ran. And then it is presentations given referrals given referrals earned. And it’s like if you do those things, and you focus on you know, how many media pitches have you sent?
those things will lead to actual money. It’s you getting in front of humans in more of an offline way or more of a longer form content way. I will say that I am being drawn more to YouTube is going.
I think, you know, YouTube is really a place where trust can transfer because it’s long form content, right? And, and, you know, there was a study, I believe it was from Google that came out that said seven hours, people need to spend seven hours online with you before they actually would be willing to like, making an investment. And you know, in the world of YouTube, that might be like 10 to 14 videos in the world of reels. It’s like, it’s pretty much impossible to get to seven hours. mean,
AJ (17:14)
I that is one demographic that we should definitely be talking about. To not talk about it would be not fair. But I would just tell you, in my personal opinion, it’s like if someone who I do not go to YouTube or to social media to find experts, it’s like if I’m really looking for someone to hire, if I’m really going after that one, I’m going to ask for referrals from my network. So it’s going to be word of mouth. Or I’m going to read their book. And time-wise,
It’s similar. It’s like the average book is six to seven hours in length. So whether I read it or I listen to the audio, but it’s like, if I’m really going to invest.
thousands of dollars or tens of thousands of dollars. I’m not going to do it just off of social media content or even off of YouTube content. It’s not going to be just off of a podcast interview. It’s because I heard about someone that I, that I trust. Like I trust someone. I heard about someone else. I went then and investigated, found that they had a book or found that they had a free course. I’m tested that. Then I’m going to request a call. Like there’s a series of multiple things that can happen online and offline. But the thing that’s going to expedite all of those
is that someone I trust said, this is who I trust. And that could be…
someone that I already really like, know and trust as a personal friend. It could be someone as a thought leader that I’m an avid follower of and I just align with their content. But that’s gonna be the thing that’s gonna expedite it more than anything else. And those things can happen online and offline. But the first thing I’m gonna do before I invest tens of thousands of dollars, I’m like, do they have a book and I’m gonna go read it?
RORY (18:53)
Yeah, and I think, you know, this is a good question. How do, ⁓ excuse me, what is the difference between personal brand awareness and personal brand authority? And I think that’s part of what you’re talking about, right? Awareness is like, okay, a lot of people see me, but authority means people actually trust you enough to buy from you. And when you look at what are the resources, what are the assets that you can create that create personal brand authority that
actually make people want to buy from you. The number one thing on the list, and this is in our national research studies, is 61 % of Americans say that testimonials from other customers is the most influential marketing asset that you have. The others would be a book, the other is you’re paid to speak on your topic, the other is you’re featured in media for your expertise, right? But when you look at followers, views, likes, all that stuff.
much, much, much lower because you just you can game it, you can fake it, you can buy it. And we all know that and everybody is doing that. And so it’s different where it’s like, that’s why I think people have to spend seven hours with us online before they trust us. They have to spend much longer. Whereas we know that
AJ (19:54)
And we all know that.
longer.
RORY (20:11)
you can do, we often say that the fastest way to take a complete stranger and turn them into a lifelong fan is a world-class one-hour presentation. We know that in an offline environment, the trust happens much, much faster. And so getting in front of humans and even like a live webinar is gonna be ⁓ such a more trust-accelerating experience than just a bunch of kind of like loosely connected videos.
AJ (20:36)
I agree. And I think that’s one of the things that’s really important. Micro content may get you followers. It may get you likes. It might get you shares. I have often found it’s not going to produce revenue.
It’s like it’s a part of a formula. It’s like you’ve got to get them to start engaging with you. Then they have to start following with you. But then at some point you have to move them off the platform and into your email list so that you can then invite them to some longer engagement, a free webinar, a free audio thing, a free, whatever it is. And that relationship has got to continue into longer forms of content.
uh, where there can be a real trust transfer, but that’s not going to happen in 30 to 60 second reels.
RORY (21:20)
Mm Yeah. By the way, so if you’re listening, if you haven’t yet, you can download our audiobook at free brand audiobook.com slash podcast. So wealthy and well known at the New York Times bestseller list last year, we give up. This is why we give our audiobook away for free is it’s like, it’s the fastest way for someone to figure out is brand builders a fit for me? And can they really help me? And do we kind of align philosophically? And that’s why we give it out because we know that if we haven’t met someone face to face, they got to spend some time and they’ll and and so we
give that resource.
AJ (21:51)
And ironically, it’s about seven hours. Seven ⁓ hours.
RORY (21:54)
That’s right.
Okay, here’s another question and then we’ll go to the community question. How do thought leaders consistently get booked, featured, and referenced without chasing opportunities? So, if we’re saying, okay, getting booked to speak on stages, getting cited in the media, ⁓ if those are things that lead to true authority, true trust,
building transaction accelerating authority. How do thought leaders go get booked on those things without chasing opportunities?
AJ (22:29)
I would not necessarily say that thought leaders aren’t chasing opportunities.
RORY (22:34)
I’m gonna say the same. The air is in.
AJ (22:38)
the question.
The errors in the question. like, I’m going, ⁓ no, if you want to be out there, then you are out there selling and promoting yourself. You are marketing of why you should be a trusted resource. You are selling yourself. You are pitching yourself. You are putting yourself out there and making yourself available. This whole idea of they’re not chasing opportunities. And somehow magically people are just emailing them and calling them and DMing them of going, I don’t, know you’ve never reached out to us before, but you know, I randomly found you.
like that’s not not happening. And that’s the best
RORY (23:13)
The best speakers in the world are not sitting at home manifesting speaking gigs. They are out hustling, talking to people, writing books, producing content, building relationships, giving referrals, crushing it on stage, staying late, asking who do you know, sending pitches. Like if you are above chasing opportunities, you’re just never going to find opportunities. And like you might find a few, like a few may find you, but that is not going to be that’s not going to be the key to building your career.
You want this, you have to go chase it. You have to go knock it.
AJ (23:45)
down. But
I do think it’s one of those things like, you know, it’s, we say this all the time, the more you speak, the more you speak. And that’s because the more that you’re putting yourself out there, the more that you’re chasing the opportunities and saying, yes, when it’s right, and it’s aligned and putting yourself in the right opportunities and the right positions to be seen, to be noticed, to be heard, ⁓ then naturally, there is a momentum that starts to build. But again, like anything, when you stop it, the momentum stops too.
So I do think there’s this interesting thing where it’s like, I only have to do this for a little while and then it’s going to catch. And it’s like, well, it could catch for a minute. But I can’t think of anyone that we know who is uber successful in this space doing something that has lasted over the decades that isn’t continually putting effort out there into keeping that engine moving.
RORY (24:38)
Totally.
Even I remember in grad school, there was this this case study about Coca-Cola and they were talking about however many hundreds of millions and billions they spend on advertising every year. I think it was like 80 million dollars a year on advertising. is 20 years ago. But and somebody asked the CEO like, you’re Coca-Cola. You don’t need to advertise. Like, why do you spend 80 million dollars a year in advertising? He’s like, if we didn’t spend 80 million dollars on advertising, it’s like a car. No matter how good a car is, it still needs fuel to run. Like that is the fuel.
This I’m going to say something that’s going to make a lot of people upset, but you heard it here first. A creator’s favorite form of creative avoidance is creating. A creator’s favorite form of creative avoidance is creating. They love to create, create, create, create, and they never tell anyone they exist. And if you’re not willing to go chase and you’re not willing to talk about, if you don’t care so passionately about your calling that you’re not going to share it with anyone, like you’re going to struggle. You’re just going to struggle.
AJ (25:38)
But that
kind of comes back to what we said in the very beginning. It’s like, yeah, it does take a lot of time, energy, resources, and money to even figure out this social media thing. It’s like you do have to chase it, right? It is an engine that requires fuel. It requires your content, your creativity, your constant adjusting and flexing with what the algorithm is doing, what the market is doing. So again, the idea of set it and forget it, that’s just not the world that we’re living in online or offline.
All right, let’s move on to the community question. Yes, so
is one of our favorite parts of the show because we get to take a question that has been voted on by our BBG community. All of the questions were input, the community voted on. This was the top one and that’s what we’re gonna answer today. So here it is. Here’s what’s been selected. It’s from Tiffany. I’ve been posting content consistently for eight months. I have a clear niche.
Decent production quality and I genuinely believe in what I’m teaching. But my growth has flatlined at around 800 followers and I can’t figure out what’s missing. I feel like I’m doing everything the gurus say to do, but something isn’t clicking. What’s the one invisible thing I’m probably not seeing that’s keeping me stuck at this ceiling?
RORY (27:10)
two ways to grow on social media, Tiffany. One is organic, the other is paid. The thing that you’re not seeing is what it actually takes to grow with either of those strategies. To grow organically requires a team or a lot of time, understanding and monitoring viral patterns. You’ve got to study what the other it’s not just what you’re saying. It’s not what you’re saying. It’s how you’re saying it is probably the format. It’s the presentation of it. It’s the structure. It’s the hook.
And as AI takes off, more creators are soaking up more of the attention because they’re spending their time and they’re developing their teams developing tools to ⁓ reproduce those hook structures and those hook patterns. So that’s one thing.
AJ (27:52)
before you move on to the next, because mine is connected to that, it’s the key words in this that stuck out to me is for eight months. And there’s just a part of that where I know we all want it to be done now and eight months might feel like a long time, but it’s not. And eight months is just the beginning. And if you have gone from zero to 800 months,
our 800 followers in eight months, that’s a hundred new followers every month. And if you’re not putting ad spin behind it and you’re like, I’m just doing what I’m figuring out. It’s like, I’d be pretty proud of that. All right. Like that, that’s not what you probably want to hear, but I would just encourage it’s like, if you had said, I’ve been doing this consistently in this way for this long for five years and I’m stuck, I’d be like, okay, there’s a problem, but this is eight months and nothing is going to have monumental explosive success.
in this world at this current state of things with eight months.
RORY (28:48)
Yeah, that’s a good
word. That’s a good word. The other way to grow on social media is paid. And that’s what you’re not seeing. The people who are growing massively are paying for it. They’re not buying fake followers, but they are paying lots of money. I’m talking tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars every month.
to show their content to more people. So they’re hiring expensive crews, they have expensive equipment, they have expensive, they got teams that are doing research, and then they’re building, they’re building teams, and they’re pushing money in the front because they have a business model in the back that pays for it. That’s a part of what we teach people how to do a brand builders group is to go, okay, how do you put
$100,000 in the machine is you can do that as long as you know there’s 250,000 coming out the back end. Now we teach our clients to grow without paid ads, right? That’s not a huge part of our strategy until later later down the road. But that’s the thing that you’re not seeing when people are growing and it looks effortless. One, it’s not effortless. And two, there’s probably a ton of money. And many of the biggest creators, okay, not to expose the secret. Many of the biggest creators are spending
millions of dollars just promoting and boosting and pushing their content in front of more people. And that’s going to continue to happen. And so the future of marketing is not about who has the best content. It’s about who has the most sophisticated system. And if you are someone who wants to learn how to build a more sophisticated system, go to freebrandcall.com slash podcast, you can request a call with our team, we’ll do an intake to see where you’re at and we’ll create a
a custom journey for you of what you need to do to take the next steps to grow your business and also to determine if we might be a fit as a partner to help you in that journey. But it is frustrating and it is discouraging and it’s hard and it’s hard. It’s hard for us. It’s hard for everybody. It’s a dogfight right now.
AJ (30:46)
It’s discouraging when you’re comparing your numbers to someone else’s. And when you’re focused on, I have impacted and I have grown from zero to 800 people who are now absorbing my content, getting value from my content. I am now serving 800 people that I wasn’t eight months ago. It’s not discouraging at all. It’s actually quite encouraging. The only part’s discouraging is when you’re comparing your step one to someone else’s step 1,000. And that’s the hard part about the online world.
Is it so easy to look at everyone else’s doing and think that what you’re doing doesn’t matter? But those 800 people, they do matter. Those aren’t followers. Those are human beings. And I would be encouraged if I were you.
RORY (31:29)
love that. Well, ⁓ if those 800 people were in a room right now, you certainly would be that’s right be fired up and impacting them. So hey, send this episode to somebody that you know that you think might enjoy it. And if you’ve been listening for a while, we’d love for you to rate comment review this show wherever you listen to it. We’re so glad you’re here. Keep coming back. We’re going to encourage you and we’re going to hopefully inspire you and share with you the strategies that are working to help you get your mission out to more people. We’ll catch you next time.
AJ (32:03)
We don’t want you to be invisible.
RORY (32:05)
So hit subscribe.
WWK Ep 021: The Fastest Way to Become a True Thought Leader (Hint: It’s Not More Content) with Jason Dorsey
021_WWK_AUDIO
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Jason: [00:00:00] If you don’t have original research, you are just sharing opinions [00:00:05] and. If you look around these rooms, there’s a ton of people filled with opinions and even great [00:00:10] stories. But if you want people to invest and invest significant money [00:00:15] in you or in your business, you know what you’re trying to offer to them, the problem you’re trying to solve, you need data [00:00:20] to back it up.[00:00:25] [00:00:30] [00:00:35]
Rory: How do you truly stand out as a thought leader in a world of ai? How do you get [00:00:40] yourself featured in the media? How do you get booked to speak on the biggest [00:00:45] stages? Those are all topics that we’re gonna talk about today on this edition of the Wealthy and Well-Known [00:00:50] podcast. I’m being joined by one of my best friends, one of the smartest people [00:00:55] that I know, and also one of the most successful personal brands in the world.
You’re about to meet Jason [00:01:00] Dorsey, who is a bestselling author. His most recent book is Z Economy. He is one of [00:01:05] the highest paid, most booked speakers, particularly in the non-celebrity [00:01:10] category, but as a true thought leader and expert, uh, one of the busiest speakers in the [00:01:15] world today. Uh, he also runs with his wife, the Center for Generational Kinetics, which [00:01:20] is.
Perhaps, at least in my opinion, the most respectable research firm [00:01:25] in the world. We are clients of his and we’re gonna talk about how using [00:01:30] original research is a huge part of the future of building personal brands. Just in the last [00:01:35] week, he has had inbound media requests from, uh, media or. [00:01:40] From media outlets like CNBC, Bloomberg, [00:01:45] CNN.
He’s regularly been featured in the New York Times and several other places. The USA [00:01:50] today, their work appears all over and they work with some of the most respectable corporate clients in the world [00:01:55] to create. Proprietary research, and also, as I mentioned, we have been a client of [00:02:00] theirs and we referred several of our members at Brand Builders Group to do original research studies.[00:02:05]
It’s one of the things that we are inviting our authors at Mission-Driven Press to do, uh, as part of a [00:02:10] regular pub. Let’s just cut that part about MDP. So I’m excited to have [00:02:15] Jason, welcome to the show, buddy. Hey, thank you.
Jason: Thrilled to be here. Thrilled to be a [00:02:20] non-celebrity, busy speaker. I knew you were gonna say something about it.
Yes. Finally I did it. I’m just one tier [00:02:25] below those celebrities.
Rory: Well, I, I, you know, and, and it’s, you know, I say that tongue in cheek, but it’s, it is [00:02:30] true and it’s, and it’s a pride point because you get paid a lot of money [00:02:35] as a speaker and to be in boardrooms and to be on boards and to be an advisor [00:02:40] to companies.
It has nothing to do with your celebrity. I mean, it has something to do with [00:02:45] some of your celebrity, but it has mostly everything to do with your research.
Jason: Mm-hmm. [00:02:50]
Rory: And the original insights that you bring. So I wanna start right there. Tell [00:02:55] us why research
Jason: mm-hmm.
Rory: Is, has been a [00:03:00] critical part of your journey, and why do you think original research is [00:03:05] important for personal brands?
You know, in the future?
Jason: I have a, a [00:03:10] core belief that has driven my work and, and caused all the growth for our business and with our [00:03:15] clientele. And that is if you own the data, you own the conversation. [00:03:20] And it changed my life, changed my career, changed everything about our business, the [00:03:25] opportunities we got, the influence we had, the people we got to meet, the, the work we got to do.
Because [00:03:30] the world right now is full of opinions, tons of opinions, and it’s dominated by opinions and [00:03:35] observation. The problem now is executives and entrepreneurs and [00:03:40] business leaders and people making big bets. Don’t wanna make them based on [00:03:45] opinions and observations.
Rory: Mm.
Jason: They, they already have enough risk in their life and in their business.
[00:03:50] They are trying to ground their decisions, ground their strategy, base their [00:03:55] vision on tangible, real data that they can trust and believe in to [00:04:00] inform and really give them an advantage. And so what that means for us and for our clients [00:04:05] is we’re the people that our competitors cite. Which is amazing. I [00:04:10] have this, this, this core belief that if you are having to cite other people’s data to make your point, [00:04:15] you are not the expert somebody else is.
Now, you may be adding your own perspective to it and [00:04:20] stories and all that. I got it, I got it. But the reality is you want to be the one who cited. And [00:04:25] so for us, when we lead statistically accurate studies, whether that’s nationally or globally, [00:04:30] all of a sudden we’re the source of truth. And I think that’s so important right now in the age of ai.
[00:04:35] It’s easier than ever before to create content on any platform in any way you want. But what you can’t create is [00:04:40] statistically valid research that leaders are looking for to separate myth from [00:04:45] truth. And I mean, you’ve heard me speak a bunch of times at these big events like. I believe it’s [00:04:50] never been more important, like truly a calling to separate myth from truth.
It is so [00:04:55] hard these days to know what’s real and what’s just made up. And when you give people real [00:05:00] data that they can bank on, that they can truly make tough decisions. ’cause remember, [00:05:05] decisions today are high risk. When you think about executives, they’re trying to not only [00:05:10] grow their business, they’re trying to keep their people employed, right?
They’re, they’re trying to deliver sure for customers and shareholders, [00:05:15] but they’re feeling the pressure. Entrepreneurs today, more competition than ever before. Put out a new [00:05:20] book, more books published this year than ever before. So how do you not just stand out? I [00:05:25] think that’s too low of a bar. How are you truly unique and own a space where [00:05:30] you are recognized as the one that’s leading the field, maybe even [00:05:35] inventing a field.
And, and the way I think about that is you wanna have the data. You wanna own the data [00:05:40] that fills in the gaps. It’s not that like, you know, I speak on generations. It’s not [00:05:45] that millennials are entitled, okay, that’s interesting, but not new. Why? What shaped that? [00:05:50] What caused it? Is it actually true? Why are millennials two generations, not one?
Why do [00:05:55] millennials most dislike other millennials in the workforce? Right? These are things that if you can get to the root cause, we’re [00:06:00] like, oh, I never thought about that. I always wondered that. That’s the emotional response [00:06:05] that drives people to wanna work with you because you’re hitting them logically.
Like, okay, that makes total sense. And emotionally [00:06:10] I’ve seen that, or that answers a core question of mine versus here’s another story or [00:06:15] a poem, or, you know, three points for my life. I think people, particularly executives and leaders, [00:06:20] and those in positions of responsibility, they like all that sort of stuff.
There’s a place for it. [00:06:25] But when it comes to big decisions. Challenging times, uncertain economies, more [00:06:30] competition than before. AI’s emergence. They’re looking for research and data they can count on [00:06:35] and it’s, it’s why clients like you and others. Come to us over and over and over again and [00:06:40] all these big fancy bestselling authors who we love working with and celebrities, but so many [00:06:45] corporations use us to do their thought leadership research
Rory: well, and, and that’s [00:06:50] interesting nuance to me that never, I never fully understood.
I mean, it, it took a while [00:06:55] for me to really understand how you use research and I was like, why [00:07:00] would companies. Pay all of this money for you to do research and then they don’t [00:07:05] share the research with other people. Like as a thought leader, I’m going, the whole reason I wanna do a research study is to put it [00:07:10] out to like Yeah.
You know, establish our thought leadership and, and all that. And what you just said is [00:07:15] going, there’s, there’s kind of two ways to use the data. One is that these companies invest a lot of [00:07:20] money for actual. Research and data to make their own internal [00:07:25] strategic decisions.
Jason: Mm-hmm.
Rory: And that’s why it’s like they’re not sharing it, it’s a competitive advantage.
Jason: Mm-hmm.
Rory: But [00:07:30] that also ties into why personal brands need to have data, because that’s [00:07:35] what the big companies, and that’s what, you know, very intellectual, sophisticated [00:07:40] types of, you know, buyers. That’s what they’re looking for and that’s what they’re gonna respond to. [00:07:45] Mm-hmm. Not just, oh, you had a, you had a video.
Go vi, you had a TikTok.
Jason: Mm-hmm.
Rory: Video go [00:07:50] viral.
Jason: Yeah. And, and the way I think about it is in the corporate world, you know, our clients [00:07:55] are banks and healthcare systems and huge tech companies and, you know, you can just go through the [00:08:00] whole long list. And I like to say they, it’s not even 80 20, they probably keep [00:08:05] 90, 95% of the discoveries that we, um.
You know, gain for them [00:08:10] internal and use it to inform their strategy. You know, I speak at all these corporate boards and no recording, like [00:08:15] all this sort of stuff, right? Like this is their competitive advantage. Their competitive intelligence is gonna shape their [00:08:20] strategy for the next five, 10 plus years.
And they’ll share maybe five, max, 10% of the [00:08:25] discoveries because they then want to put out, Hey, we found all these things. This is informing our product [00:08:30] roadmap. This is informing, uh, the way we’re delivering services or pr developing new products or serving our [00:08:35] employees. So they still wanna be known for it.
But they’re gonna keep most of it internal. On the personal brand [00:08:40] side, it’s completely flipped,
Rory: which has also become a, a huge [00:08:45] new pool of people for you. And I wanna understand why has that happen? You know, you used to do. More [00:08:50] corporate where it’s like, it’s more internal. Yeah. Decision making. But now there is, uh, you [00:08:55] know, a rising tide of, of entrepreneurs and personal brands who are coming to you.
So,
Jason: [00:09:00] mm-hmm.
Rory: Why? And and how is that work?
Jason: Well, what happened originally is a lot of people [00:09:05] coming to me going, Jason, how are you in the media all the time?
Rory: Right?
Jason: How are you keynoting these huge conferences? ’cause [00:09:10] it’ll be like me. Some Hall of Fame football player, a former president, you know, and maybe somebody [00:09:15] from McKinsey or some Harvard economist, and they’re like, how are you featured on the main stage and have more time [00:09:20] than any of them.
Yeah. Which happens all the time. And I’m like, ’cause people want insights they can use, they [00:09:25] want data they can’t get anywhere else, so they go. Oh, I got it. I could totally use that. Or that [00:09:30] solves that problem or I never thought about it that way. Or you know, you wanna really fill in these gaps for them.
[00:09:35] And so once I started being on all those stages all around the world, and the beautiful thing about data [00:09:40] is it translates and it travels, it has handles, people take it all over the place. I mean, we do so much [00:09:45] international work, it really opens up markets. So, so that happened. And then all these personal brands who [00:09:50] you and I know are like Jason.
Love you, man, but you’re not huge on Instagram. [00:09:55] You don’t have a big LinkedIn following,
Rory: right?
Jason: You know, you’re not all these things like, how is this happening? I’m like, well, we [00:10:00] have what they can’t get anywhere else, right? And, and because of that, once you’re the [00:10:05] source of truth, everybody wants you. And, and so it started like that.
So then we started working with a few personal [00:10:10] brands and it was like, Hey, you know, we’ll do for you what we’ve done for us. Um, but we need your help. And I think this is a, a [00:10:15] real key. Personal brand research strategy and thought leadership strategy is different than [00:10:20] corporate, right? When it comes to personal brands, we wanna really understand what is the position you’re [00:10:25] seeking to own.
Mm. You want to be the source of truth, you wanna be the one who cited. So [00:10:30] we think about it as like, what are your dream headlines that will come out of your research study? Or [00:10:35] what are the questions that if you knew the answer to everybody would cite you or come to you or hire [00:10:40] you? When you think about like the core markets for the people that, for example, that, that you know, uh, so [00:10:45] many who learned from you.
Entrepreneurs, they love that dramatically grows their business. They make so much money off our [00:10:50] studies, all these personal brands. When you have coaches and consultants and people that are selling professional [00:10:55] services or parts of membership, they love it. ’cause now they have something that’s tangible.
They can turn into all these things, [00:11:00] it’s evergreen, and they’re now the source of truth in something that’s very intangible. So all of a [00:11:05] sudden those sorts of groups released it. Then with authors, what happened is they’re like, oh, well. I went [00:11:10] to go sell the book, Jason, and when I put in there that we were gonna do a national research study, we got all this interest.
We’ve [00:11:15] had so many friends get huge book deals or choose to do their own because they were able to generate so much [00:11:20] business from it. So it’s when you do a study, you get something tangible out of it. That then [00:11:25] drives something tangible. And I think so much today doesn’t do that for people, particularly personal brands.
Rory: Mm-hmm. [00:11:30]
Jason: You know, there’s a lot of hype out there.
Rory: It’s a lot of hype and there’s a lot of, there’s a lot of people [00:11:35] with fancy demo reels ’cause there’s good video editors that can make you look better on stage. There’s a lot of people [00:11:40] with big social media followings. ’cause you can fake that. There’s no shortage of books that are [00:11:45] coming out and, you know, some legitimate bestsellers, some not so legitimate, but get to say [00:11:50] they’re bestseller, whatever.
Yeah. Um, but. It’s interesting because you do, [00:11:55] you do these research, this is what a research report looks like, right.
Jason: For state of Gen [00:12:00] Z.
Rory: This is, this is your internal one. So a lot of times when you put these together for clients, [00:12:05] they, um, you know, this is what a, like a deliverable would be. You would give them data and then they [00:12:10] would turn it into maybe something like this.
Mm-hmm. Is to go one, one thing that’s been [00:12:15] fascinating to me is it took us seven years to write the Wealthy Well-Known book. [00:12:20] Great book. Like to make it a New York Times bestseller.
Jason: Mm-hmm. [00:12:25]
Rory: It took us a few months to work with you to create the trends in personal branding, [00:12:30] national research study.
Jason: Mm-hmm.
Rory: The thought leadership that came from that was [00:12:35] equal to, if not far, greater than having a New York Times bestselling book.
Jason: Mm-hmm. Because. [00:12:40]
Rory: It was fast, it was relevant, like timely. Mm-hmm. And it was [00:12:45] practical. Mm-hmm. Right. And even this is our experience and our frameworks and things, but the numbers are, it’s like the, [00:12:50] it’s like the numbers never lie kind of a thing.
Jason: Mm-hmm.
Rory: So this is something that I [00:12:55] think there’s not enough personal brands thinking about.
Jason: Mm-hmm.
Rory: And going, especially in a world of [00:13:00] artificial. This is a way to stand out big time.
Jason: Yeah. And, and you know, I speak at a [00:13:05] lot of events now for personal brands, which I never did before. I’m having a blast doing it.
And my, [00:13:10] my mission or my calling, and I’m very direct, uh, which is if you don’t have [00:13:15] original research, you are just sharing opinions. And [00:13:20] if you look around these rooms, there’s a ton of people filled with opinions and even great stories. But [00:13:25] if you want people to invest and invest significant money. In you [00:13:30] or in your business or in, in, you know, what you’re trying to offer to them.
The problem you’re trying to solve, like you [00:13:35] need data to back it up. Mm. And people get hung up a lot of times. Like, oh, well Jason, I’m not a [00:13:40] researcher. I’m like, Hey, I got a lot of researchers. I got that part covered. What we need is people [00:13:45] that have a vision of a space they want to own questions that they feel are not [00:13:50] solved, that if we’re solved would, would really drive change.
And they have. And [00:13:55] this is something that, you know, we turn out a lot of people that, that come to us now because I’m like, look, if you don’t really know [00:14:00] your space, doing a study is not gonna change anything for you. If anything, you’re [00:14:05] gonna have an amazing study, but you’re still not gonna have the depth.
But if you’ve been doing this for [00:14:10] several years or many years, and you really have a, a point of view in a position [00:14:15] like a study is, is game changing for you? And you know, for us, like most of the studies we do now are [00:14:20] 60 days or 90 days.
Rory: And as an entrepreneur, you know, approach. You [00:14:25] know, this is a problem we can solve by writing you a check.
Like, I can’t, I can’t solve, I can’t [00:14:30] get someone to write a book for me by writing a check. Like I have to put the sweat equity into the whole, whole thing. [00:14:35] But like, we pretty much just write you a check, have a few conversations, you guys go do all the [00:14:40] work here of like the grunt work of making sure it’s statistically valid, fielding the samples, you know, and then [00:14:45] even analyzing the data and giving back to us like what you found.
Um, by the way, if, if [00:14:50] anyone is listening, if you go to free brand [00:14:55] training.com/research, so free brand training.com/research, [00:15:00] we will connect you directly to Jason and his team if you wanna explore and kind of [00:15:05] think about, okay, does, could a study fit for you? Um, and you do different types of studies that, you know, kind of [00:15:10] meet different budgets and, and different scopes and magnitudes and, and things like that.
Um,
Jason: yeah, [00:15:15] our typical client, the way we think about it today is. They, they’re gonna invest [00:15:20] in this study, the whole study beginning to end about four hours over the [00:15:25] project. And the most important thing is they need a vision, right? What is the space you wanna own? [00:15:30] I would say most people have it, some don’t.
And when they don’t, we’re like, Hey, go figure out these questions. Like [00:15:35] take some time, talk to your advisors, your friends, your family. Mm-hmm. Once you know those come back, we’ll do all the work back. Yeah. And then come [00:15:40] back. But a lot of times people come to us say, Hey, I got a book idea. Can you do a study to inform the book?
[00:15:45] Absolutely. We do that all the time, or I’ve written the book.
Rory: You’re doing that right now for one of our mission driven press [00:15:50] authors, Eric Thomas, et the hip hop preacher, which is interesting because.
Jason: He’s fantastic.
Rory: He’s [00:15:55] fantastic. I
Jason: mean,
Rory: so inspiring. One of the best speakers in the history of the world.
Jason: Yeah.
Rory: One of the biggest social media [00:16:00] followings. AJ and I grew up watching his videos, but like also classically known as a [00:16:05] motivational speaker, even though he’s a PhD.
Jason: Mm-hmm.
Rory: But now this is the first time [00:16:10] ever. Mm-hmm. Where he is. Releasing original [00:16:15] research.
Jason: Mm-hmm.
Rory: Right. Which will be true thought leadership, not just insights and inspiration, which [00:16:20] he’s always done.
Mm-hmm. Very, very well. Yeah. But now even at his level going, yeah, I want, [00:16:25] I want to have that academic substantiation, I want to have that objectivity, I want [00:16:30] that data driven, um, backing to what I’m saying. And that’s, that’s another, another [00:16:35] powerful part of this for personal brands watching is that. [00:16:40] You feel much more like a professional when you’ve done a study.
Mm-hmm. There’s an element just like [00:16:45] when you publish your first book. Yeah. Or just like, you know, you first launched your first website, you’re like, oh, you know, it [00:16:50] starts with a business card. It’s like, oh, I’m official. I have a business card. Oh, now I have a website. And then it’s like, oh, I have a book.
Oh, I have a [00:16:55] bestselling book. This is one of those things where you go like, whoa, even though you [00:17:00] guys did the work, it’s like, this is my research. Yeah. It’s my space, it’s my [00:17:05] questions, it’s my vision. And now I am truly like [00:17:10] the preeminent thought leader. And when AJ and I did the trends in personal branding, national research study, we [00:17:15] included in the book.
Jason: Mm-hmm.
Rory: Uh.
Jason: Well, and y’all got on Good Morning America right away. That’s
Rory: right. Yeah. It was
Jason: [00:17:20] incredible
Rory: At first, the day after we released our research study. Mm-hmm. I mean, we got on Good Morning America. This [00:17:25] is no lie. We put it out there for free and they literally were like, Hey, we [00:17:30] saw your study, can you come on tomorrow?
Um, now we didn’t know it was Good Morning America. It was actually like [00:17:35] some other affiliate and then the interview went so well. Good Morning America picked it up and aired [00:17:40] it. We didn’t even know. And it was just like. Wait, what? Like how many years of doing [00:17:45] 10,000 other things would we try to do and not ever get that?
Jason: Yeah. And people are always like, uh, you know, [00:17:50] ’cause I’ve been on the Today Show, I don’t know how many times, right? All these 60 minutes, 20, like all of these TV [00:17:55] shows, tons of ’em. We were in the cover store in the New York Times and people like, how do you do that? I’m like, look, if, if you [00:18:00] bring journalist data.
They are ecstatic. Like it makes [00:18:05] their job so easy. It’s something they can cite and then they want your perspective. And I think that’s [00:18:10] really, that’s the part that’s hard for people sometimes to conceptually understand. I, I just did a media interview, I guess [00:18:15] maybe two days ago now, and I was on this journalist, really well known journalist and she said, Jason, I’m so [00:18:20] happy to talk with you because you are bringing data and actual research and every other person that we’ve [00:18:25] interviewed just had opinions and it is such a difference.
And I saw the story ’cause it just came out and [00:18:30] I included. All through the story. Hmm. And, and I, and I just think like if, when [00:18:35] people realize how straightforward it is to get this done and like, Hey, you have your own study, you own all the [00:18:40] data, we own nothing. Yeah, we do the work, but it’s your vision.
You’re approving everything and [00:18:45] then you determine of all the data and insights that you found. ’cause it’s packed with discoveries. You get [00:18:50] to share them with the world, not us. This is all you. We are just here as a resource and a [00:18:55] partner and we will take the mystery away. Like we’ll do all the hard work, but, but you have to know enough about your [00:19:00] space where when we give it to you, you can just run with it and let the world know, because that’s our mission, right?
Yeah. Our, our, our mission [00:19:05] is, is to elevate thought leaders through research. And, and if we do that, [00:19:10] uh, it. It. Like that’s my legacy, right? That’s the thing I get fired up about. That’s why I [00:19:15] speak at all these events and I’m like, look, if nothing else in this room changed except y’all went out and all did studies [00:19:20] and were able to then elevate the expertise of the world because of that, like, cool, I’m done.
Like [00:19:25] that is the greatest thing ever because all the millions and millions and millions of people that are gonna be helped that way, [00:19:30] sometimes people come to us to, which is interesting, and they’ll say, well, you know, um, what if we find things we don’t like? [00:19:35] I’m like, you will find things you don’t like.
That’s research. But [00:19:40] you share what you’re gonna share, right? And, and oftentimes,
Rory: but also you should wanna know, like [00:19:45] you, you should want to know, like if, if you’re truly trying to help people and you’re truly trying to be a thought [00:19:50] leader, you should want to know if something you’re saying is wrong.
Like if you have a point of view that [00:19:55] is inaccurate or incorrect and you’re out there advancing it, it’s like you wanna know that [00:20:00] and it becomes a fascinating thing to talk about. Your own misconception about, [00:20:05] like, I had this misconception coming into the research study. Mm-hmm. Um, like I couldn’t believe in our [00:20:10] study as an example.
I never thought doctors would. Be an [00:20:15] important market for us, that, that people cared, that their, that, that, you know, we asked this [00:20:20] question about which profession does it matter? Mm-hmm. Uh, to a consumer that they have a personal brand. [00:20:25] Doctors was the number one profession. Mm-hmm. 61% of Americans said they want their [00:20:30] doctor to have an established personal brand.
Doctors weren’t even on our radar as [00:20:35] prospects for what we do at Brand Builders Group. And now we work with Dr. Josh Ax and we work with Dr. Gabrielle [00:20:40] Lyon, and we work with all of these really incredible, you know, chiropractors and, and, and, and [00:20:45] wellness people because it’s like, oh, in the health space, it matters to be able to like build a [00:20:50] personal brand that you can trust.
Jason: Mm-hmm.
Rory: So those, you wanna know when you’re wrong. [00:20:55] If you, you should want to know.
Jason: Yeah. And, and you know, the way I like to think about it is like, [00:21:00] it’s, it’s new information that can inform whatever it is you’re sharing. And sometimes you find that, that, Hey, I’ve been [00:21:05] saying something and it doesn’t land anymore in the way people think, right?
Like Wolf will go out and, I mean, I’ll, I’ll [00:21:10] give you example. We were just doing studies on employee benefits, uh, for one of our corporate clients. And [00:21:15] free mental health services was at the top. And the company goes, we don’t offer that at [00:21:20] all. I’m like, well that’s not a mistake. It’s an opportunity. ’cause clearly this is the number [00:21:25] one thing that this whole group wants, that if you offer it shows it’s gonna [00:21:30] drive recruiting and retention and long-term commitment.
Or on the flip side, we just did. ’cause you know, I [00:21:35] speak on generations. Uh, we just did a study and what Gen Z most wants more than anything else [00:21:40] is stability. Stability is one of the things that we can actually offer for [00:21:45] many in Gen Z. We just don’t emphasize it. And then we look at, well, what actually messages stability [00:21:50] for them to, right.
It think
Rory: they want ping pong tables and like
Jason: Yeah. Scheduling, flexibility and all this other stuff. Yeah. [00:21:55] Yeah. And it’s, but it makes sense. You go through years of instability, of course you want stability on the other side. [00:22:00] And every time that I can present that with our research and the leaders, [00:22:05] whether they’re in person or at some, you know, big virtual event, they’re like.
Rory: Wow,
Jason: I never thought about that. That [00:22:10] makes so much sense. Like as soon as you do, the more you do that, the more they’re ready to hear [00:22:15] everything else. Right. And, and, and I think that’s the key point. Great research advances a [00:22:20] conversation. Mm. And I tell people like, just advance the conversation and [00:22:25] it doesn’t even have to matter.
Like, are you right or wrong or this or that? It’s like you’re just trying to advance the [00:22:30] conversation. And that’s the part that drives so much media for us because. I don’t have an [00:22:35] agenda. I’m just like, Hey, this is what we found. We were shocked, we were surprised. We were [00:22:40] thrilled. We were all these things.
I, I just did an interview. I was like, we did not wanna discover this [00:22:45] at all.
Rory: Mm.
Jason: This is super concerning, but it’s [00:22:50] real and it’s the truth and we need to be talking about this.
Rory: Yeah.
Jason: And it changed all the energy.
Rory: [00:22:55] So again. As a business owner, part of what’s amazing is just like this is a problem [00:23:00] we can solve by writing a check and partnering with you.
If you’re, if you’re curious about that, go to free brand [00:23:05] training.com/research. We’ll connect you to Jason and their team. Um, [00:23:10] I wanna talk about what to do with the study once you have it. Right? So you invest this money. Mm-hmm. [00:23:15] Your team goes out, does your thing. We collaborate together. We come up with this amazing, brilliant, like, [00:23:20] these are the insights.
Jason: Mm-hmm.
Rory: Um. This, sitting in a room on a table [00:23:25] is not gonna do anything. Mm-hmm. So what do you do with your, [00:23:30] your most successful clients? What do they do with this to, to turn it into driving [00:23:35] business?
Jason: Yeah. Our, our belief is you should be able to make at least a 10 x [00:23:40] return on your money. But that 10 x return is not gonna come from doing the great study.
We’re gonna crush it. [00:23:45] Like we, we crush our studies. People love it. Like we know they’re gonna be amazing. [00:23:50] All of the return is gonna be putting the studies discoveries into action.
Rory: Hmm.
Jason: And [00:23:55] so what does that mean? We, we have something called our finding findings activation framework, but it’s how do you take [00:24:00] the data and discoveries and message ’em to the world?
In such a way that it drives your key business [00:24:05] outcomes. As you can probably guess, I’m into data and we should be able to measure everything. We should [00:24:10] be able to measure all the results from the study. And I don’t mean putting the insights into action. That’s absolutely true. If [00:24:15] it’s an internal study, meaning a company is leading the study to drive a a, a business strategy, but from an [00:24:20] external revenue generation standpoint, which is how personal brands should think about it.
Mm-hmm. This should be able [00:24:25] to drive leads. It should make, uh, should get you paid a lot more Money should drive media, should drive [00:24:30] longer term relationships and should help you to, um, offer to be able to solve bigger and different [00:24:35] challenges. So the way we do that is we’re like, okay, great. You get this beautiful data set, you get your [00:24:40] PowerPoint and let’s pretend that your findings deck is, um, 60 slides, right.
I’ve already pulled out all [00:24:45] the stories. Here’s all the great stories. Here’s the charts, here’s all the headlines, here’s [00:24:50] everything. Served it up to you. What do you do? So the first thing we tell them to do is you’re gonna go through there and you’re [00:24:55] gonna find the 10 or 20 that just give you tingles.
They get you fired up, you’re gonna [00:25:00] go circle ’em, right all over. Star, do whatever. But you need to start to figure out what are the stories you want to tell? ’cause [00:25:05] there’s not just one story in a study. There’s 10, 20, 30 study, uh, stories and you wanna be able [00:25:10] to tell them sometimes together, and a lot of times individually ’cause different stories resonate with different audiences.[00:25:15]
So we’re gonna go from that and say, okay, what is the best way to reach those that you want [00:25:20] to reach? So I speak to corporate executives and leaders and so forth. So for me, they [00:25:25] want white paper and they want that because it shows sort of depth around the discoveries. So [00:25:30] that means we find those 10 or 20 insights and we go in and we have a framework which is basically like, what did you [00:25:35] find?
What does it mean? Why is it urgent or important? What do I do with it? So then we fill that [00:25:40] out and that’s how we begin to develop these white papers. But for other clients of ours, like entrepreneurs [00:25:45] and some these personal, they are not interested in white papers. They’re like, what am I gonna do with white paper?
Mm-hmm. They instead want a video [00:25:50] series where we’re gonna take each insight and turn it into evergreen videos so they can go and share for a year, two [00:25:55] years. Maybe we turn into a course where all of a sudden now you have a research ba, a research backed course, [00:26:00] you know, for so many of our clients use it for books.
Some are for books they wanna do in the future, some are for books they’re [00:26:05] working on now. My favorite, we have people that release their study to go promote books they’ve already done.
Rory: Mm [00:26:10]
Jason: Right. They’ll just add bonus material or say they’ve updated it or they’ll just release the study [00:26:15] and then use that to get media again, to be able to then talk about the book.
Studies give you permission to [00:26:20] talk with people. Gives permission for people to wanna listen to you ’cause you have something they can’t get anywhere else. We [00:26:25] also, like, we use it a lot to, um, for all kinds of demand gen. So while people turn into [00:26:30] infographics, while people turn into short form videos, animated videos, um, people turn it [00:26:35] into, uh, op-eds.
Like I was, uh, I was on one of the big media outlets for an oped I wrote, [00:26:40] um, which was amazing on, on marketplace. So like a lot of these things are just. [00:26:45] You should have at least a year, if not two years of content in a single [00:26:50] study. People always ask me, well, do I have to do another study? Or I’m like, I’m like, you can, but it’s better to max out [00:26:55] the value from this.
And so we show you. Here’s how you use it in your speeches. Like for me, I. I [00:27:00] know like you do, we use our study in our speech. It’s also the lead gen. So for us, all the people in the [00:27:05] audience, whether it’s a thousand or 5,000 or 50, what do they do? They take out their phone, they scan the QR codes, [00:27:10] and then they can get the study.
But what’s really wild, it’s, and I never ever thought this would happen. [00:27:15] You would not believe how many people want the hard copy versions of it. Hmm. So the hard copy version [00:27:20] you have, like, we have so many clients and they will pay to get the versions so that everybody, in [00:27:25] fact a lot of ’em want it instead of the books or they’ll take it in addition to the books ’cause it feels very current and of the moment [00:27:30] and we could keep updating it.
So we see that, um, we use it in our consulting process. So for [00:27:35] anybody who’s doing professional services, you can then say, Hey, I have a research backed process, which is [00:27:40] huge in all of that. Same for communities. I mean, the whole idea is. What are [00:27:45] the problems you’re trying to solve with the study? How can you turn that into the right thing to [00:27:50] educate and inform that audience?
And it looks different for everybody. We do live webinars, we do prerecorded. [00:27:55] Our clients use this in so many different ways. I know my favorites is creating indexes [00:28:00] or creating now, then create their own quizzes. You know, that’s top lead gen for so many people right [00:28:05] now. And now you have one that’s research backed and once people get the vision and go, oh, I got it.
[00:28:10] So I could take what I already do, you’ll come in and make this research backed, and then I could turn into all these [00:28:15] marketing tools and PR tools and communication tools. I just get to level up every single thing [00:28:20] I do.
Rory: Talk about research backed real, real quick, and then we’ll, we’ll land the plane ’cause this.
This has [00:28:25] been amazing, but I think. So you’ve really made a strong case [00:28:30] for the, the power of research, the reasons to do it, both for just getting [00:28:35] actual answers and insights, also for branding and positioning. Uh, and then also, [00:28:40] you know, for perception and like price increases. Why can’t I just do this myself with [00:28:45] SurveyMonkey?
Like, why do I need, why do I need you? Why, why, what, [00:28:50] what makes something count as like real research versus like, why can’t I just email my [00:28:55] email list? Mm-hmm. And come up with some questions and, and ask them, can you talk about the [00:29:00] difference between, you know, a true academic methodology [00:29:05] and statistically valid sample sizes versus just like.
People do this, right? They’ll put [00:29:10] something on their Instagram stories, they’ll ask a question, and then they’ll present it as like, [00:29:15] research. Why is that? Why does that not count as, as real [00:29:20] research?
Jason: Yeah, that’s a great question. The, um, we actually, in our, um, proposals, [00:29:25] the, we have a whole page just on why you could do that and why it won’t actually deliver all the things that [00:29:30] you want.
But basically. When you think about the difference between a [00:29:35] study and a survey, just in a traditional sentence, if I’m gonna survey my list, you’re not [00:29:40] getting anything representative except of your list, and except of the people who decided they like you [00:29:45] enough or you offered some free thing for them to complete it, it doesn’t actually represent.
Anything [00:29:50] other than the people on your list who had nothing better to do at that moment? Same with Facebook. It’s whoever you [00:29:55] reached or any of these. So in our model, uh, generally our studies are a thousand people [00:30:00] and it’s always weighted to something. So usually, for example, it’s weighted to the US census for age, gender, [00:30:05] geography, and ethnicity.
Um, and we have a thousand people. ’cause that gives us a margin there. Plus or minus [00:30:10] 3.1, uh, 19.
Rory: What very a margin. Yeah.
Jason: [00:30:15] 19 out 20 times, uh, 20 times, which is sort of the, what they call the 95th confidence interval. [00:30:20] All of that to say, uh,
Rory: meaning that when you ask a thousand people at that level, [00:30:25] it’s like that’s going to be a statistically valid representative sample of the entire [00:30:30] nation.
Jason: Mm-hmm.
Rory: And that’s what makes it valid. It’s, it’s not just a thousand people took it, it’s [00:30:35] that the demographics of the thousand people who took it. Represent the [00:30:40] demographics, weighted and equivalent sort of to the nation, the national demographics.
Jason: Yeah, [00:30:45] so we’re gonna match the US census, and so we’re gonna have all the different states represented and [00:30:50] genders and, and anything else.
So like age, gender, geography, and ethnicity. That gives us a really low [00:30:55] margin error. This is very important because we always publish methodologies, so [00:31:00] that’s why all these media outlets wanna use it because they know, oh, this is [00:31:05] statistically accurate. Otherwise, you’re just doing a survey. If you wanna own a space, [00:31:10] you have to be statistically accurate.
You want a very low margin of error because that [00:31:15] means it’s real and valid. And once you do that, then people will cite you. The media will cite you. [00:31:20] Academics will cite you. Business leaders will cite you. Boards of directors, investor groups. [00:31:25] All of these places will cite you because you have a statistically accurate national study.
[00:31:30] That’s what I always tell people. You have to name your study and give it a credible name, not some cheeky name, because [00:31:35] you wanna be the source of truth. So own that space. Be the source of truth. ’cause your [00:31:40] data, your study is valid. It’s, it’s statistically rigorous [00:31:45] and that’s why so many big companies use us.
That’s why all kinds of different groups partner with us, so many personal [00:31:50] brands is because. If you’re going to invest the time to do it, you want to do it right. So I think [00:31:55] for us, the big, at least what I hear from our clients, ’cause you know most of them are repeat or direct referrals. What I hear from [00:32:00] our clients is we do study design differently than anybody else because we do study design specifically [00:32:05] for thought leadership.
Mm-hmm. That is what we do. Then we manage the process. So the thousand or 2000, [00:32:10] however many participants go through it and they’ll meet whatever the criteria are. Maybe they’re all people that have over a [00:32:15] million dollars. Maybe they all are business owners, maybe they’re all moms. Like we, you know, we do all [00:32:20] kinds of studies and then the analysis where we pull out the stories for them.
[00:32:25] That’s like magic and they get so excited and the response at the app,
Rory: right? Or even if I’m not like a numbers [00:32:30] person, I don’t really understand. Yeah, no, no. You’re, you’re doing that extrapolation for me.
Jason: We do the whole thing
Rory: and then I just [00:32:35] can go be the storyteller.
Jason: You can present your study the same day.
We teach you how to present it. We give you [00:32:40] our framework. We record presenting it as if we’re you. We give you everything you need so that you can take whatever your [00:32:45] strengths are and your passion. And immediately integrate the, the study and the discoveries so that you can [00:32:50] start telling the world. And you know, for us, we always believe you should create a research hub, which is something on your [00:32:55] website that everybody’s wanting goes back to, that’ll have your key findings and your perspective on it.
And you know, white [00:33:00] papers, infographics, videos, those sorts of things. So you have this sort of center of truth that’s now a part [00:33:05] of what you do. And I, I just, again, if you own the data, you own the space. If you’re [00:33:10] constantly citing other people to make your point, you’re missing an opportunity to really step up to that next level.[00:33:15]
Or as you said earlier, you know, one step below a celebrity.
Rory: [00:33:20] Uh, well, there you have it again, free brand training.com/research if you’re interested in this. And [00:33:25] share this episode with someone you know, who is a personal brand or an entrepreneur who [00:33:30] is ready to go to that next level to like true authority, right?
This is, this is, you know, this [00:33:35] idea of statistically valid, academically accurate and sound. Uh, this is [00:33:40] a, a level of legitimizing your expertise and your own confidence in what you’re teaching. [00:33:45] And that’s what this is really about. So. Make sure you, if you know someone like that who should be [00:33:50] doing this at that level and owning a conversation, share this episode with them.
Uh, make sure you hit [00:33:55] subscribe, tell us your thoughts down below, and we’ll catch you next time on the Wealthy and Well-Known [00:34:00] [00:34:05] [00:34:10] podcast.
WWK Ep 020: How to Create an Audiobook That Moves People with Tavia Gilbert
Rory: [00:00:00] That’s very frustrating and annoying. Mm-hmm. As an author, but, and then also with my colleagues, I’m going, [00:00:05] we can’t give away our own book. This thing costs nothing to produce, like [00:00:10] literally nothing to distribute, and yet somehow the money’s not coming back to us as creatives and that. [00:00:15] That bothers me.
Yeah. And it’s not about money, it’s, it’s so much, it’s just like, it just doesn’t, [00:00:20] it feels like injustice.
Tavia: Right, right. I’m with you and if I can ever help you solve that problem, I [00:00:25] want justice for the people whose hearts and minds justice for the people. Yes. Yes. I love the [00:00:30] direction this interview has taken.[00:00:35] [00:00:40] [00:00:45]
Rory: How do you make money with audio books and what [00:00:50] makes a great audio book? What are the mistakes that most audio book [00:00:55] authors make, and how does the whole industry of audio books work? How has it been created [00:01:00] and how is it changing in the future? Those are some of the issues and questions that [00:01:05] we’re gonna address.
On today’s episode, and it’s not often that we [00:01:10] bring in outside vendors, but in the case that we meet someone who is a real [00:01:15] expert, and especially when it’s someone that we have hired personally and benefited [00:01:20] from, we want to introduce you. To them. And today that is the case with our [00:01:25] good friend Tavia Gilbert.
She is one of the most world renowned experts on [00:01:30] audiobook. So let me read a couple things from her formal bio. So first of all, she is a Grammy [00:01:35] nominated award-winning voice actor, producer, and creative director. She [00:01:40] was the creative director for. Mine in AJ’s, wealthy and well-known audiobook, uh, [00:01:45] which, uh, is phenomenal.
I might say if, if I can. Um, she is known [00:01:50] for her, uh, her transformative storytelling in both audio and [00:01:55] podcasting. She has nominated for many audio awards. Um, she has, uh, [00:02:00] she won. This, I wanna say it correctly. Audiobook Narrator of the [00:02:05] Year by Booklist Magazine. She’s produced and been a part of over 1000 [00:02:10] audiobooks for major publishers.
Penguin Random House, Blackstone Ette, Simon and [00:02:15] Schuster McMillan. Also hybrid books. Um, she is the person that we [00:02:20] predominantly work with for audio books, uh, with Mission-Driven Press, which of course is our sister company, where we [00:02:25] distribute our books through Simon and Schuster, but we also own the audio rights, and so [00:02:30] we work with Tabia on that.
So she is a pro, she knows what she’s talking about, and [00:02:35] this is a big, important issue, especially with the freedom that it gives authors in the [00:02:40] future. Tavia, welcome to the show,
Tavia: Rory. Thank you so much for having me. [00:02:45] I’m so honored to be here.
Rory: We really lean into people who are experts and obviously it’s a big part of what we [00:02:50] teach.
And man, this is, this is your universe.
Tavia: It is.
Rory: Um, I [00:02:55] wanna actually start with the business of audio books if we can. Um, I, I, I want to get to the [00:03:00] art as well, which I know is like a big part of also your bread and butter.
Tavia: Yeah.
Rory: But I think that [00:03:05] a lot of authors. I have no clue how audio books really work.
Tavia: Yeah. [00:03:10]
Rory: Like, they just go, don’t, I? Like, I, I know I recorded, I went to a [00:03:15] studio and recorded my book, but then, you know, nothing happens. It’s like this giant black box. Do I make any [00:03:20] money? How do I make money? What’s the difference between a self-published audio book and traditionally? So can [00:03:25] you just like, give us a little bit of an understanding of like, what’s [00:03:30] the economics of an audio book in, in both traditional publishing and [00:03:35] self-publishing and like.
How does it work? I mean, obviously you gotta record a [00:03:40] file and, and we’ll talk about that Yeah. Later, but I wanna just dive into the, the, the [00:03:45] money of how do you make money from audio books and who makes money with audio [00:03:50] books?
Tavia: Well, hopefully, hopefully the author will make some money from their audio books.[00:03:55]
That’s a, a pretty broad question, so if I get kind of away from it, bring me back because there are a [00:04:00] lot of components to the answer.
Rory: Yeah.
Tavia: First, the audiobook [00:04:05] industry has been growing, growing, growing. It’s a multi-billion dollar industry, and it [00:04:10] is the, it is a major part of publishing. So when I first started almost [00:04:15] 20 years ago, people saw audiobooks as kind of like a redheaded stepsister.
[00:04:20] It was like off to the side and people were. Very afraid that audio books [00:04:25] would poach print sales. Mm. So there was some kind of discomfort [00:04:30] in some areas of publishing about audio books. Mm. And over the last few [00:04:35] decades, audio books have been such an integral part of publishing and [00:04:40] marketing the book, getting the book out to audiences that it has really [00:04:45] shifted and audio is now one of the most important parts of your publishing [00:04:50] plan.
Rory: Hmm.
Tavia: If you’re. Publishing traditionally. [00:04:55] Often your audio book writes will be bundled with your print rights, right?
Rory: So
Tavia: [00:05:00] say you are publishing through a traditional publisher, they’re going to publish your print [00:05:05] book and produce your audio book. So that
Rory: is, and then that’s like, that’s what happened to me.
I [00:05:10] had a literary agent, we got a book deal, and I really didn’t even think much about it. Mm-hmm. It’s just [00:05:15] kind of like, yeah, it’s all bundled together. It wasn’t like really a separate [00:05:20] negotiation. Right. And I was just like, oh, the, and then. I was like, later on I was like, [00:05:25] I wish I would’ve known a little bit more.
Like I, I wish I would’ve understood this [00:05:30] piece of it better.
Tavia: Yeah. Now people understand more the [00:05:35] value of their audio rights, and I think part of the value is because it’s your voice. It’s bringing [00:05:40] to life your book off the page. So there’s a real resonance and frequency in that [00:05:45] audio product of the message.
Yes, it’s very powerful.
Rory: I mean, when [00:05:50] AJ reads her chapters of our book, it makes me cry made like I’ve me cry. I the story literally, I’ve heard the [00:05:55] story hundreds of times when I hear her tell it in our audio book chapter three, like [00:06:00] I break down crying. It’s such a powerful. [00:06:05] Medium and, and to to hear it in, in her own voice.
But anyways, yeah. So, so
Tavia: well, and your chapters [00:06:10] made me cry. Like the passion and the, the ambition and the hustle and the commitment. So it’s, [00:06:15] it has that power. Not that people don’t cry in books. They do, of course we cry when we read [00:06:20] books, but that there’s something about somebody telling their story that is just, it’s [00:06:25] amazing, transformative listening.
If you don’t have a [00:06:30] traditional publisher, if you are uh, publishing in a hybrid situation, [00:06:35] often the best case scenario for you as an author is for an [00:06:40] audio publisher to purchase your audiobook rights. Okay, so there are. [00:06:45] It’s, it’s consolidating, like all of the c corporate, corporate life is [00:06:50] consolidating into fewer and fewer companies, but there are still companies that [00:06:55] acquire only audiobook rights.
Rory: So it’s just like a book publisher. Mm-hmm. But they [00:07:00] specialize in, we buy audio books.
Tavia: Right?
Rory: And so if you self-publish or [00:07:05] you hybrid publish. As an author, you own those rights, right? You don’t sell them to a traditional [00:07:10] publisher, so then you then could turn around and sell them to, are they just called audio [00:07:15] publishers?
Tavia: Yes.
Rory: Is that what they are? Mm-hmm. Yeah. But they’re, are they also distributors? Yes. Or is [00:07:20] that a different thing?
Tavia: Yes. So if you were hybrid publishing and an [00:07:25] audio publisher purchased your audiobook rights, they would pay for the production [00:07:30] expenses and they would distribute that audiobook.
Rory: Okay, so that’s a positive thing.
Yeah. ’cause there’s [00:07:35] production, ex expenses. Yeah. And that’s that. So they, they’re gonna pay those [00:07:40] expenses. Now, are they usually paying in advance?
Tavia: Um, it [00:07:45] depends. Every contract is
Rory: different.
Tavia: Different, you know, so some people are [00:07:50] going to have a small advance. Some people may have their production expenses [00:07:55] covered.
Um. And get less of an advance or, you know, every deal is [00:08:00] sure details.
Rory: It depends on the author and the platform and all that kind of of stuff the same. But, but you could, [00:08:05] you, you at least, you’re not gonna be coming out of pocket to produce the audio. Right. Which is like if you [00:08:10] hybrid publish or you self-publish you, you do that.
Now, when that, and that’s part of why we met you is with [00:08:15] Mission-Driven Press. We got into the details of this and we’re like, this is, there’s a lot here.
Tavia: Yeah. [00:08:20]
Rory: It’s better for authors to just. You know, they can just pay us and then we go, we [00:08:25] take care of this for you. Right? They still own the rights of it, but like we solve the problem of the [00:08:30] production.
’cause the production is. A little bit easier. I feel like these days, I mean it’s, it’s more [00:08:35] common that people have microphones and like studios and you know, even though when [00:08:40] you do it, you’re doing like a real sound studio.
Tavia: Yeah. And I think one of the dangers, [00:08:45] and I don’t know if you want to move away from the economics yet, into the production, they’re, [00:08:50] they’re linked, you know, it’s a related conversation, but.
There’s a I I find that [00:08:55] often people have a DIY sort of mindset about their audio and I [00:09:00] think that’s a real risk and a real problem.
Rory: Let’s save that for later. Yeah. So yeah, [00:09:05] stick around. ’cause I definitely want to get into that. Yeah. So help, let’s go back to the landscape of the [00:09:10] space. Mm-hmm. That the industry, so I can.
I can sell my rights to [00:09:15] an audiobook publisher. This would be like Blackstone, right? Mm-hmm. Is what you’re talking about the one?
Tavia: Yeah. Blackstone Tan Tour, [00:09:20] something like that. That
Rory: What’s the, what’d the other one?
Tavia: Tan Tour.
Rory: Okay. I didn’t even heard. I’m not even familiar with [00:09:25] that.
Tavia: Yeah. But a Blackstone or Recorded books is a big publisher related to Tanto, so there [00:09:30] are audio publishers where you can sell your rights.
And they, then again, they’re producing it. [00:09:35]
Rory: Do you need a literary agent to do that or Usually authors are just kind of like going direct ’cause there’s not a lot of money [00:09:40] here. Right. And, and there’s, it’s, it’s rare that you get a big advance for audio. Right,
Tavia: right, right.
Rory: So [00:09:45] an agent, literary agents probably are not as much drawn to this space,
Tavia: but I think that you, [00:09:50] you probably are going to have more success with an agent [00:09:55] backing you when you’re trying to sell your rights.
Mm-hmm. But as an independent author, you can certainly approach [00:10:00] companies. Hope that they will acquire your rights. Audible may [00:10:05] acquire your rights. So, uh, a trade magazine that’s a [00:10:10] really. Uh, good, uh, tool and resources Audio File magazine. It’s the audio [00:10:15] book magazine. Okay. And if people get familiar with that magazine, it tells, [00:10:20] you know, there are articles and ads and reviews, and it’s the industry of [00:10:25] audio publishing.
So that’s how people can maybe discover who those companies are that are [00:10:30] acquiring rights. Who are the audio book publishers that are exclusively dealing with [00:10:35] audio, not with print. So. Definitely recommend people get familiar with
Rory: audio [00:10:40] file. So if I either, if I sell my rights either as part of a traditional deal [00:10:45] or I figure out a way to go direct, or I get an agent to just do my audio rights, if I’m hybrid [00:10:50] or self-published, then they’re gonna publish it.
They’re paying for the expenses and then they’re [00:10:55] gonna distribute it, meaning they’re gonna take the audio book and they’re gonna make it available in [00:11:00] Spotify and iTunes and Audible and places like that
Tavia: [00:11:05] probably. They would widely distribute. But one [00:11:10] uh, thing that’s important to understand is that audible.[00:11:15]
Is an ecosystem that stands alone. And if people, whether an [00:11:20] independent author, a hybrid publishing author, or a traditional publisher, if they want [00:11:25] to distribute for the highest royalty, they’re going to go exclusively to [00:11:30] Audible. They’re still the biggest deal in audio publishing. Spotify’s coming up, [00:11:35] you know, really trying to compete with them.
So if you want to publish widely [00:11:40] audible spotify audiobooks.com, downpour in the public [00:11:45] library market, you cannot. Get the royalty share that you [00:11:50] would if you went only to Audible.
Rory: And when, when you say only with Audible, you’re [00:11:55] talking about an Audible exclusive, which means that Audible is the only platform that people [00:12:00] could hear your audio book.
Tavia: Right?
Rory: Right. So you, it’s like that is an option. [00:12:05] That is like a self-contained option, and that’s what a lot of my private clients are doing. Mm-hmm. And [00:12:10] they’ve gotten some huge, huge deals.
Tavia: Yeah.
Rory: Right. Yeah. It’s like, you know, I think [00:12:15] audiobook, when I hear audiobook advance, I tend to think like $5,000 or 10,000 or 20, [00:12:20] some of them have gotten like huge advances.
Tavia: Right.
Rory: And, but, but then it’s like [00:12:25] audible. Owns that. Right. You cannot get it anywhere else.
Tavia: Right.
Rory: So that’s the best [00:12:30] money in town. Um, but then it’s not available in the public [00:12:35] library. Right? It’s not available on iTunes and Spotify. And that’s why Audible’s doing that. They’re, they’re kind of like,
Tavia: I think it’s [00:12:40] Audible iTunes, I think Audible and iTunes go hand in hand.
Okay. Or [00:12:45] there’s, um. I can put this in the show notes, we can talk about it so that I make sure [00:12:50] and it changes. So I just wanna make sure that I’m giving the most current up to date.
Rory: Okay.
Tavia: But, um, [00:12:55] yes, audible is going to be the, the highest royalty return.
Rory: And what kind of [00:13:00] royalties do you, do you get on an audio book?
Like, and, and, and walk us through like. [00:13:05] How do you even calculate a a a a royalty. So is this like, [00:13:10] like on a traditional published book? You know, we, I remember on like my [00:13:15] take the stairs book, you get, I wanna say we got between 10 to 15, a sliding thing between [00:13:20] 10 to 15% on hardcover. Mm-hmm. For the first whatever.
And then [00:13:25] on paperback, which the publisher immediately pushed it to paperback, it drops to [00:13:30] 8% on like the first 150,000 or, you know, something like that. Like, yeah. Um. [00:13:35] Are those the audio book royalty rates? Are they higher?
Tavia: So if you [00:13:40] are exclusively distributing to Audible, your royalty right now would be [00:13:45] 40% of sales.
Rory: Wow.
Tavia: Um, if you are [00:13:50] distributing to Audible in a non-exclusive arrangement so that you are also able to [00:13:55] distribute everywhere else, audio books can be discovered and purchased, [00:14:00] that royalty drops to 25%.
Rory: Okay.
Tavia: So
Rory: just talking [00:14:05] about Audible,
Tavia: right? If you, right now I work a lot with In Audio, [00:14:10] which is another distributor, I can distribute a book through in [00:14:15] audio and it will push it to Audible and everywhere else [00:14:20] if I distribute in, in audio.
I can [00:14:25] exclude Audible from that distribution platform. I recommend often that my [00:14:30] authors who want the widest possible distribution, that’s a higher priority than the [00:14:35] highest royalty share. I recommend that they distribute through [00:14:40] Audible in a non-exclusive arrangement.
Rory: So you’re talking 25% royalty,
Tavia: right?[00:14:45]
And then they distribute through in audio. [00:14:50] Excluding Audible from that distribution option,
Rory: so, so everywhere else [00:14:55] basically.
Tavia: Right? Right.
Rory: Yeah.
Tavia: So you’re getting kind of the best of both worlds
Rory: right now. Part of when people [00:15:00] hire you, you, you deal with all this, right? That you can, you can set, you can, you can, [00:15:05] part of your fee is just as like, you’re gonna deal with all this and you set it up and like you talk us through [00:15:10] how do we want to do this, right?
We agree on a thing, and then you deal with like submitting it and doing all of that [00:15:15] stuff,
Tavia: right? Because it can be a technical. Headache. It’s annoying. Yeah. To, you know, but I [00:15:20] also want to know with every client, what’s your priority? What’s your goal? Do you wanna get this out as [00:15:25] widely as possible? Are you trying to make the most money possible?
What’s important to you? Do you wanna [00:15:30] deal with the fewest platforms? You know, there’s not a cookie cutter one right [00:15:35] answer that fits everybody’s business plans, right? So it’s really important that people [00:15:40] don’t just make assumptions and think audible’s the only game in town. And they kind of [00:15:45] have to go in that direction.
Um, audible comes exclusive distribution, comes with a [00:15:50] seven year commitment, which can be shifted. Oh, midstream. If you really do want [00:15:55] to get out of that contract or
Rory: exclusive, it’s a seven year commitment.
Tavia: Right.
Rory: Okay.
Tavia: Right now they’re pretty [00:16:00] flexible. They’ll let you out of that commitment. That can always change.
So you wanna be [00:16:05] careful what commitment you’re making
Rory: and when you get a royalty in audio, like if it’s 40%. [00:16:10] Are you saying that you get 40%? Like if my book is $10, if [00:16:15] my audio book is $10 that every time Audible sells it, I’m gonna make [00:16:20] $4. ’cause that’s pretty good. But that doesn’t seem to be reflective of what we’re seeing on royalty [00:16:25] checks.
Tavia: It’s really hard to understand your royalty checks, honestly, [00:16:30] because Audible can make your book available for the, the [00:16:35] daily, you know, really cut rate. Everybody buy this for two bucks, you know, or
Rory: [00:16:40] whatever. Okay.
Tavia: And they shifted all, you have no control over pricing and audio is [00:16:45] distributed in, in so many different ways, so many different models.
There are over [00:16:50] 40 platforms that distribute audio books worldwide. Some are streaming, [00:16:55] some are credit models like Audible, some are number of hours. That’s the thing. How do
Rory: I get paid if, if, [00:17:00] if as a customer they’re paying 10 bucks a month or whatever the subscription is for [00:17:05] Audible and then. They get so many credits and they download my book and like maybe they [00:17:10] listen to five minutes.
Mm-hmm. Maybe they listen to five hours, like. [00:17:15] How does that work? Or does anybody know? ’cause like, I, I don’t feel like that’s very transparent or clear. It’s not. [00:17:20] Or at least not very simple to understand.
Tavia: Yeah, it’s not. And I, I partner with one [00:17:25] of the leading experts in audiobooks, Michelle Cobb, who’s been in the industry for over [00:17:30] two decades.
And I go to her, you know, every couple months I’m like, we’ve gotta figure this out for [00:17:35] people. How we can make it clear, how we can make it transparent. We [00:17:40] are partnering to give the best service, the most information, [00:17:45] but it is not possible for us to make up for the, the [00:17:50] deficit of so many different models, so many different ways.
Prices, it’s just, [00:17:55] it’s kind of opaque and that’s just the way the industry is. And [00:18:00] right now, that’s not gonna change anytime soon.
Rory: Yeah. So funny that you, you know, [00:18:05] as you say that this is why. We didn’t do an audio deal at [00:18:10] all,
Tavia: right.
Rory: We just we’re like, we’re gonna hold our own audio. ’cause, ’cause [00:18:15] as a mission-driven messenger, right?
So even at, even at my level, [00:18:20] uh, I’m not getting huge. Advances.
Tavia: Right.
Rory: And so [00:18:25] the way that we think of our book is less of like, oh, we’re gonna make money off our book. And more of [00:18:30] like, the book is the lead generation tool into our ecosystem, to which when people read our [00:18:35] book, they go, whoa, these people know what they’re doing.
They can, you know, help us with, with other stuff.
Tavia: [00:18:40] Yeah.
Rory: Um, and it’s always driven me so insane that I [00:18:45] cannot gift my own audiobook. Mm-hmm. Like even when I had a traditional [00:18:50] publishing deal. I could at least buy my hardcover book at [00:18:55] a discount. It was not a great discount. Right. It was like, you know, 35% off.
Like it’s, it’s [00:19:00] still paying a ton of money. But one of the reasons we did hybrid publishing on the print version was so [00:19:05] that we could get our books at wholesale costs, which has been a game changer. Mm-hmm. Like it cost me way [00:19:10] more to give. A paperback version of Take the Stairs then [00:19:15] to give out our beautiful hardcover embossed dust jacket version [00:19:20] of Wealthy and well known.
Tavia: Yeah.
Rory: So at least with a physical book I can give it out.
Tavia: Right.
Rory: But [00:19:25] with audio I’m like, this is crazy. It’s air like why Right. Can’t [00:19:30] IG this to people? And when you sell your rights, you give up [00:19:35] that. Right,
Tavia: right.
Rory: Um, because they own the right to the book. And so that’s why [00:19:40] this time around we’re like, there’s not enough money showing up on our royalty checks, right?
From our first two audio books, and I can [00:19:45] see how many units are being sold, kind of.
Tavia: Mm-hmm.
Rory: And I’m like, we’re selling, we’re selling [00:19:50] just as many units on audio as we are in physical. But [00:19:55] the, the royal, the royalty check is way less.
Tavia: Right?
Rory: And all we see is like a number. [00:20:00] So there’s like no transparency in the reporting, right?
But we can go sold this many [00:20:05] physical books. This many audio books. One was a check for this, the other check was significantly less and I [00:20:10] can’t give it away. And that was part of what also pushed us to hybrid is going, this is insane. We’re going [00:20:15] to use the audiobook. And sell it ourselves. Mm-hmm. And just do it.
[00:20:20] So are, are you seeing other authors do that or not really? Are people still hesitant to like, [00:20:25] say, I’m gonna like. Control the whole audio thing myself,
Tavia: I think more and more people [00:20:30] are picking up on the opportunity that audio gives them to connect, to be a [00:20:35] lead magnet or a lead generator. People are getting it and some [00:20:40] audio books are now being distributed before their print.
So [00:20:45] that’s kind of an interesting shift.
Rory: Mm-hmm. Yeah. We, we, we did that. Yeah. And to my knowledge, we [00:20:50] were one of the first that really pushed that. Yeah. But we gave away the audio book for free and [00:20:55] used that as a lead magnet to sell the physical copy.
Tavia: Right.
Rory: Which worked pretty well.
Tavia: I think, [00:21:00] you know, unfortunately publishing is a difficult business.[00:21:05]
A lot of authors know that they’re not going to make a lot of money on their [00:21:10] book.
Rory: Mm-hmm.
Tavia: And that for them. Who, the, those who decide to move forward to put [00:21:15] in the time and the, the blood, sweat and tears of writing a book and getting it out there, know [00:21:20] that it’s leading to something bigger than the book alone.
Rory: Mm.
Tavia: And so I think that [00:21:25] just, uh, savvy and strategic authors have a bigger [00:21:30] plan and they understand the rollout at a certain time, what they’re driving people [00:21:35] to, how it all works. I think that’s not gonna change anytime soon. [00:21:40] No. No. Corporation right now I see is going to be benevolent and say we [00:21:45] want people to be more empowered.
We want creatives to have more of their revenue. That’s just not the way. [00:21:50] The world works right now.
Rory: Yeah. Well to, so to that point, if you go to free brand [00:21:55] call.com/podcast, that’s exactly precisely what we specialize in is helping
Tavia: [00:22:00] Yeah.
Rory: Authors create monetization strategy beyond the book, outside of the book [00:22:05] and turning it into other, other revenue streams.
Um, you know, and there’s a part of [00:22:10] me, like, as you say this, and part of why I wanted to have this interview is there’s a part of me, you know, [00:22:15] you use the word benevolence. Mm. There’s a part of me that’s going. Could brand builders group ever get [00:22:20] to the level one day of scale that we could solve this problem because we’re [00:22:25] selling air and yet the authors don’t seem to be making any money.
Tavia: Mm-hmm.
Rory: Uh, and [00:22:30] to me that’s very frustrating and annoying as an author, but, and then also with my colleagues, I’m going, [00:22:35] we can’t give away our own book. This thing costs nothing to produce, [00:22:40] like literally nothing to distribute, and yet somehow the [00:22:45] money’s not coming back to us as creatives.
Tavia: Yeah.
Rory: And that.
That bothers me. Yeah. And it’s not about [00:22:50] money, it’s, it’s so much, it’s just like, it just doesn’t, it feels like injustice.
Tavia: Right, right. I’m with [00:22:55] you and if I can ever help you solve that problem, I want justice for the people whose hearts and minds [00:23:00] justice for the people. Yes. Yes. I love the direction this interview has taken.
So yeah, I [00:23:05] think it’s an important question. But for now, people should work with you to figure out [00:23:10] their strategy because the content of the book needs to get out into the world in all [00:23:15] formats. So it is an ongoing problem. You’re not the only person who has had that [00:23:20] frustration looking at royalty reports that are really difficult to understand.
But, [00:23:25] uh, I have seen people more and more put their book in their app. Distribute [00:23:30] it that way, whether it’s monetized or just, that’s
Rory: what we did.
Tavia: It’s just Right.
Rory: That’s what we did. We built our own app. We dropped the [00:23:35] book in there, and then when people download it, right, they get, they, they don’t, they not only get in our book, but [00:23:40] they get, um.
They get inside our app. Mm-hmm. All of our, our free [00:23:45] content, which if, uh, if you go to free brand audiobook.com/podcast, [00:23:50] free brand audiobook.com/podcast, you can get our audiobook for free. [00:23:55] And if nothing else, just see how we do this. Mm-hmm. Right. So you go to a page, you [00:24:00] put you, you fill it out. We send the audiobook and the mechanism by which we use to deliver [00:24:05] it is our own app.
And then that also gives us a way to stay in touch with people, which has been super. [00:24:10] Super powerful.
Tavia: Right?
Rory: Because that’s the other problem when, when you sell at retail, [00:24:15] which is also the, the same issue exists with physical books that when [00:24:20] someone goes and buys a copy of my book at Amazon, you know, okay.
I guess that’s good. I make. [00:24:25] Whatever, $2 or a dollar on the book. But the, the [00:24:30] more expensive problem is I never get the customer’s contact information. Right. Right. I don’t know who [00:24:35] they are. And it’s definitely that way with audio books. Right. They just sort of like disappear into [00:24:40] the ether. But when you own the rights, put it in your app.
Now all of a [00:24:45] sudden. I, I have a direct line of communication for them forever. And to us, I’m [00:24:50] going, that’s the more valuable piece. Of
Tavia: course. Yeah. If you had distributed your audio [00:24:55] book through Audible exclusively, you would not have the right to distribute it in your app. So [00:25:00] authors really need to understand that, what that relationship and that commitment means.[00:25:05]
It’s, it’s limiting. So audible still, again, is the juggernaut. It’s the biggest deal in [00:25:10] town still, but it’s, but that’s
Rory: why they’re paying more money is they’re. They want [00:25:15] control over it. But what you’re saying is I still could distribute our [00:25:20] audiobook ’cause we did not do exclusive. I could still have it on Audible.
Tavia: Absolutely.
Rory: And people could [00:25:25] just go buy it. Um, we’ve just, and right now we’ve said the only way you can get it
Tavia: right
Rory: is through our [00:25:30] app. ’cause we just want to know who the people are. Um, but, uh, okay. Let’s talk about the [00:25:35] art of it, because this is, I, IM important and, and I know this is something you’re really passionate [00:25:40] about.
Yeah. And, and I have to say, you know, I’ll start by saying. You know, [00:25:45] I’m a two time world champion of public speaking, and I thought, oh, I [00:25:50] can just like pick up the microphone and just record this, right? Like, I do this for a living. And then I met you and [00:25:55] I was so empowered by the coaching that you gave me, and [00:26:00] my first two books were traditionally published.
Mm-hmm. I [00:26:05] had an audio producer, but basically they just sat there and said, oh, [00:26:10] you fumbled that word. Go back and rerecord, oh, that pause was too long. We need to edit that out. [00:26:15] Like you did something completely different. Yeah. My experience with [00:26:20] you was so much better. It was a completely different level, which in a way [00:26:25] was very surprising to me because I would’ve thought, oh, the traditional publishers and my big fancy book deal [00:26:30] would’ve come with mm-hmm.
Another level here, so, so describe [00:26:35] what do you think are the spectrums of. What it means to have an [00:26:40] audiobook producer and, and, and a creative director. And yeah. And what, what are some [00:26:45] of that intel?
Tavia: Yeah. Well, I loved working with you and I’m really, really honored that I got to, and that it [00:26:50] made a difference in your experience.
I served as the audiobook [00:26:55] producer, so my company Talkbox from end to end, from, you know, your [00:27:00] manuscript to talking and consulting around distribution. Uh, [00:27:05] that’s the service that we provided in the booth. I served as your audiobook director [00:27:10] and so I was helping you stay present in the moment, [00:27:15] deeply connected to the material.
And the difference is, [00:27:20] I think in. Working without the knowledge or without the, the guidance [00:27:25] of somebody like me. An author thinks their job is to read their book aloud. I’m just reading the [00:27:30] text and recording it into the microphone, and I think that’s the last thing that you were [00:27:35] doing. What I guided you to do is discover the material as if [00:27:40] it was for the first time to think the thoughts in real time as you were.
[00:27:45] Discovering them all over again to connect to the emotion of it, to be in your [00:27:50] heart throughout. It’s a very meditative practice. I think your book was about eight and a [00:27:55] half, nine hours maybe. And so for both of you, I was inviting you to be present [00:28:00] moment to moment to moment, and. It is about [00:28:05] phrasing for, excuse me, phrasing for sense, making sure that the emphasis is [00:28:10] on the, the best operative word.
That your, you know, your diction is [00:28:15] smooth and listenable. Um, that everything is clear, but it’s really about how [00:28:20] connected are you, how alive is this in you and great actors. The thing that [00:28:25] differentiates great actors from. Average actors is their sense of [00:28:30] discovery and it’s fresh. Even if they’ve rehearsed that play or practiced that [00:28:35] scene for, you know, 50 times before when the audience sees it, [00:28:40] they’re experiencing somebody in a state of discovery.
That’s exactly what makes a great [00:28:45] audiobook. Is it new? Have we, do we feel like we’ve never thought this before? We’re [00:28:50] just. Discovering this right now. Mm-hmm. Now it’s, it’s a totally different energy. [00:28:55] So
Rory: the, the, and the mistake I made as a new author. Was [00:29:00] I read my audiobook.
Tavia: Mm-hmm.
Rory: The thing that I did with, as an experienced [00:29:05] author and with your coaching was I didn’t read the audiobook.
I performed to the audiobook. [00:29:10] Yeah. And that is a very subtle distinction. Yeah. But a [00:29:15] massive Yeah. Impact.
Tavia: Yeah.
Rory: For the reader. And even going back and listening to [00:29:20] to, to it, I was like, wow. Like the wealthy and well-known book on [00:29:25] audio, it’s not. Informational experience. Right. No, [00:29:30] it’s an emotional experience.
It’s, and that’s the difference is are you delivering an [00:29:35] informational experience of reading the book or are you delivering an emotional [00:29:40] experience Yeah. Of performing the book.
Tavia: Yeah. I wanna hear your breath. I. I wanna hear [00:29:45] your, you know, the, the cracks in your voice. I wanna hear when you start to get emotional, [00:29:50] a lot of authors say, what if I cry and I think I wanna hear that human [00:29:55] experience of an emotional connection to the material?
Because you’re, that means [00:30:00] you’re emotionally connected to your listener. That’s service. And that’s the [00:30:05] difference, I think, will barely touch on ai, because I think AI [00:30:10] is, it’s a dead medium essentially, but. You weren’t [00:30:15] making noise, you were offering meaning there’s resonance and [00:30:20] frequency in what you did, and that’s why I’m not too worried about AI because [00:30:25] what you created, you and AJ in the booth could never be replicated [00:30:30] by an artificial voice.
Rory: Well, and we actually did use ai, so not [00:30:35] everybody knows this, but because we released the audio as a free part of [00:30:40] our book launch to, to spread the word about the physical book. For speed’s sake, [00:30:45] we did use mm-hmm. AI to release the first version. Um, [00:30:50] and. You know, then we went and recorded anyways. And it’s because of what [00:30:55] you were saying.
Yeah. It’s like, I don’t want AI to replace my soul. [00:31:00]
Tavia: Right.
Rory: And, and I don’t want to rob the, the, the listener [00:31:05] of. The human connection. Even if AI could emulate my [00:31:10] voice perfectly, it wouldn’t emulate the emotion in the [00:31:15] moment. Mm-hmm. At the right. Exact intensity.
Tavia: Mm-hmm.
Rory: Of which I would [00:31:20] deliver it, because I’m not, you know, one of the keys to storytelling that we tell speakers is [00:31:25] you don’t, you don’t retell the story.
You relive the story.
Tavia: Exactly. Exactly.
Rory: And that is [00:31:30] also true here in audio books. And so. I’m not [00:31:35] worried about AI either. I’m sure there’s gonna be people who use AI for their audiobook. [00:31:40] Fine. Just like there’ll be people who use AI to like produce all their video content on YouTube or [00:31:45] whatever,
Tavia: right.
Rory: Whatever. There’s, that’s a choice to make, but I, I think [00:31:50] that human connection is really important and, and. And what people [00:31:55] really want. And ironically, as AI takes over, I think people are gonna crave that more.
Tavia: [00:32:00] Yes, I agree. You’re also giving up owner, um, rights in your ip, [00:32:05] ai. Uh, there’s little intellectual property [00:32:10] protection, so if you’re gonna put your audiobook in AI because you think it’s fast.
Your team [00:32:15] learned how slow and labor intensive it was mm-hmm. To put out an AI version. It also [00:32:20] compromises your, your rights to your own material. So people should be very careful [00:32:25] about safeguarding their ip.
Rory: Mm-hmm. Yeah. So, um, [00:32:30] the. What are some of the other, what other tips do you have [00:32:35] for, uh, reading your audiobook or let’s say performing the audiobook?
Mm-hmm. Since we’re [00:32:40] establishing that as the, as the standard, like what are some of the mistakes that [00:32:45] authors make when it comes to actually delivering their own material over audio?
Tavia: [00:32:50] Yeah. The first step is not recording in the proper environment. You want the [00:32:55] best quality audio. Obviously that’s the medium, so you want it to be.
Um, [00:33:00] the right sound for audio books, which means not recording in a music [00:33:05] centered studio. When you record an album, um, when you put out your next [00:33:10] country album mm-hmm. With your songs
Rory: mm-hmm. Yeah. I’m working on Right. I know. I have been using AI to help me write music ’cause I, I [00:33:15] can’t perform music. Yeah.
Tavia: You want the sound of the studio around you. That’s part of the [00:33:20] environment for an audio book. You don’t wanna hear the environment, it’s just the voice. So [00:33:25] people need to record in a proper studio that is ready for audio books. [00:33:30] When you’re actually recording your book, one of the most, um, [00:33:35] typical mistakes or things that authors do that deflates the energy [00:33:40] is to have an up inflection.
So if you’re reading your book and you’re sounding like everything [00:33:45] is in a question, it. It is very, it’s not empowered, it’s not [00:33:50] specific. It’s, and I hear this a lot with, with all levels of readers, but [00:33:55] especially new readers, they’re asking the question, so you really want to plant [00:34:00] that idea in the ground that is specific, that is something [00:34:05] powerful, right?
It’s a very different sound. So if you [00:34:10] are, listen, if you wanna hear yourself in,
Rory: so if I, if I, if I read it like this. [00:34:15] That makes it sound like a question.
Tavia: Yeah.
Rory: Versus I go, I’m saying it like this.
Tavia: I want you to [00:34:20] be wealthy and well known. That’s
Rory: a statement, that’s a directive.
Tavia: I want you to be wealthy and well known.
[00:34:25] You mean that? That’s something I always think of. It’s like you’re planting that steak, you’re [00:34:30] planting that seed.
Rory: Mm-hmm.
Tavia: So that’s one thing that somebody can listen back to [00:34:35] their own sort of test. And here where am I using that up inflection, [00:34:40] uh, unconsciously, and how can I change that to make it grounded?
Rory: Yeah. And that’s what’s [00:34:45] powerful about having you sit there, listen in real time is like some of that’s hard to [00:34:50] hear. Like as I’m trying to read and I’m trying to deliver. I can’t [00:34:55] also be listening and editing my voice at the same time. That’s where it’s helpful to have like a, a [00:35:00] producer, or I guess you would call that a direct director,
Tavia: director.
Mm-hmm. Um, another big tip [00:35:05] is. Paragraph. Breaks are paragraph breaks and punctuation are your [00:35:10] map. Mm. So when you’re narrating your book, you’re following your own punctuation, your [00:35:15] own phrasing. We don’t speak in sentences, we speak in [00:35:20] phrases. We speak in grouped thoughts. So just because there’s more text on the page [00:35:25] doesn’t mean you need to read like a freight train that’s just at a pace and it’s just continuing to go without a [00:35:30] break.
Rory: Mm.
Tavia: There are, there should be pauses for thought, pauses, for [00:35:35] breath, um, and paragraph breaks are a big shift in time [00:35:40] and space. So you really want to land each thought at the end of the [00:35:45] sentence, let it have its moment and fall to a close. Begin the [00:35:50] next para, uh, the, the next sentence when you’re ready.
Paragraph [00:35:55] breaks go somewhere totally different. Mm-hmm. There’s a, a shift there. So it’s all about [00:36:00] pacing, phrasing, tone. Um,
Rory: this was another thing [00:36:05] that I learned from you about audio books, was that the punctuation. [00:36:10] For an audio book is different than the punctuation for a printed book. [00:36:15]
Tavia: Hmm.
Rory: And you actually took our manuscript and laid it out [00:36:20] differently in certain parts and broke it up in certain ways.
To [00:36:25] emphasize that you wanted it to be read aloud differently [00:36:30] with different pauses and annunciation than it would be read [00:36:35] quietly, uh, through in a physical book.
Tavia: Mm-hmm.
Rory: Um, also, you caught a lot of stuff [00:36:40] related to like calls to actions. Mm. And mm-hmm. And instructions [00:36:45] and URLs that. Occurred differently when you’re looking at it on a page [00:36:50] versus hearing it in in the ear.
Tavia: Mm-hmm.
Rory: And you, you took our manuscript and [00:36:55] really like analyzed all of that and came and presented, you presented [00:37:00] our own manuscript differently. Like there was a lot of work actually that. [00:37:05] I overlooked or undervalued how much work there would be in [00:37:10] prepping a manuscript that was already done,
Tavia: which you wrote.
Rory: Which I wrote, but [00:37:15] prepping that for an audiobook. Read that. There’s actually a lot to that,
Tavia: right? Yeah. [00:37:20] There, there should be. We’re, you know, prepping that manuscript, looking for [00:37:25] vocabulary. Does everything, are we pronouncing everything? Uh, correctly. [00:37:30] And just because you’ve written the book or cited those studies or interviewed those [00:37:35] scientists or authors or experts, doesn’t mean you’ve thought, how do we pronounce their name?
[00:37:40] Mm-hmm. But you wanna honor them by being correct in, in all of that vocabulary. [00:37:45] You want to translate the visual components in text or decide [00:37:50] this is not translatable or it would be awkward. That needs to be put in the bonus. PDF. [00:37:55] I’m, uh, working on a very, very long audio book, [00:38:00] um, coming up and so we wanna be thinking how are we going to keep the listener’s [00:38:05] attention for that many hours?
Do we need to break it up with a little bit of a music cue? What’s going to [00:38:10] be enhancing the experience, not irritating the listener? A [00:38:15] vocal performance, especially in fiction, how are you going to sustain a character voice? Yeah. [00:38:20] That’s, you know, for hour upon hour. It’s, it’s those nuances that come [00:38:25] from within the, you know.
A thousand plus books. I’ve kind of [00:38:30] seen it all. And now that I’ve said that tomorrow I’ll get a book, something different, something completely different and [00:38:35] surprising. But there’s a lot of prep that goes into a polished audio book. And then [00:38:40] how are you, uh, labeling your chapters? What kinds of [00:38:45] calls to action are you creating?
It’s, it’s a lot deeper than just. Just read the text [00:38:50] and record it and
Rory: yeah, I mean, you, you can see now that just in this conversation there is [00:38:55] a lot of complexity around how does the business work? What’s the right way to distribute, how do the [00:39:00] royalties work, how do you prep the manuscript for it? How do you prep yourself for it?
How do you deliver it, [00:39:05] how do you edit it? All of these things. Um, that’s the difference between, there’s [00:39:10] producers, there’s direction. Uh, you also, uh. Function as a literary, an [00:39:15] audio literary agent in a way for mission-driven press authors, right? We can work with you. And then setting all [00:39:20] that stuff up. And that’s one of the things where we were like, you know what?
If someone’s a mission-driven press author, we’re [00:39:25] just gonna say, we can solve this problem for you without stealing your rights.
Tavia: Yeah. Yeah.
Like,
Rory: like, [00:39:30] we’ll just, you know, we pay a fee. To you, you take care of it, but then the author still maintains [00:39:35] control of their IP and stuff, which is important. But anyways, if you’ve got any of these [00:39:40] questions, uh, if, if these things are curious to you, uh, Tavia is available for you to talk to.
[00:39:45] She is one of our recommended vendors. So if you go to free brand [00:39:50] training.com/audiobook, free brand training.com/audiobook, you [00:39:55] can get in communication with her. We’ll have her contact the info there. You can, you know, ask her [00:40:00] stuff. She can send you some of these. These things that she’s talked about. So check that out.
Free brand [00:40:05] training.com/audiobook. Uh, tavia, any final thoughts that you would wanna share [00:40:10] with somebody who is currently thinking about an audiobook working on an audiobook? Uh, [00:40:15] you know, what, what would you leave us with?
Tavia: Yeah. I think the most important message for me to [00:40:20] put out into the world is that your voice is your birthright.
You are here to [00:40:25] use it. When you’re born, the first thing that you do is use your voice. [00:40:30] I believe that’s for a reason. So I think that audio is [00:40:35] spiritual. It furthers your mission and deepens your [00:40:40] impact, and it is a. Transformative [00:40:45] superpower. Mm. So I’m honored to have worked with you and heard your voice in [00:40:50] my ear for several days, and you know, your sound waves are going out into the world [00:40:55] in perpetuity impacting, and that is something that I hold so close to my [00:41:00] heart.
So audio books are not just a nice thing to have. They’re a profoundly [00:41:05] transformative vehicle for change.
Rory: Hmm. That is beautiful. And your [00:41:10] message matters. That’s why you’re here. We refer to our audience as mission-driven messengers. If you’re [00:41:15] getting value from this content, this podcast, please make sure to share it with somebody [00:41:20] else who you think could, can learn from it.
We’d love to have your comments, your feedback, your ratings [00:41:25] and your reviews wherever you listen to this show. Please let us know how we can [00:41:30] continue to serve you. I hope and trust that this, this information, this interview [00:41:35] was valuable. We’ll catch you next time on the Wealthy and Well-Known [00:41:40] [00:41:45] [00:41:50] podcast.
Ep 019: The Truth About PR No One Tells You (And Why It Matters More Than Ever) with Danielle Finck
WATCH THE INTERVIEW LISTEN TO THE EPISODE BELOW PR is having a moment, and it has very little to do with press releases. In this episode, AJ sits down with Danielle Finck to talk about what public relations actually is in 2026, why relationships still matter more than reach, and why earned media is becoming more valuable as AI […]
WWK Ep 018: Quit Now! If You Won’t Invest in Your Dream…
speaker-1 (00:00)
I’m sorry, but if you can’t come up with a few thousand dollars to invest in your dream, then quit your dream now. Because if you’re not spending that money and time with us, then what are you spending it on? And I go, if you’re not doing it, like you’re not gonna make it.
speaker-0 (00:20)
I want to say something to a very specific type of person who is listening to this episode today. You know you’re capable. You know that there’s a calling on your life. You know you have the experience and the expertise to make a real difference in lives of people that need.
to need to hear from you and only the way that you can share. But somewhere along the lines, you’ve begun to drift. You’ve begun to not believe in yourself. You’ve begun to give up on your dream. You’ve begun to stop doing things that you used to do. And really what’s happening is you’ve begun to give up on yourself and the dream and the calling that you have on your life. And I don’t believe that it’s an accident that you’re listening to this episode today. This episode is
for you, the person who has begun to drift to fall away from the calling on your life and hopefully today is a call back to that calling so that you can get back on with your dream. So Rory, this is a unique episode of really a wake-up call to the person who is giving up on the calling, on their audience, on themselves, up on their dream. And so I’d love to just start with you as like, what do you think
that person needs to hear today to be reinvigorated to get back to the work that they used to find with vigor and passion and excitement that now just feels pointless and exhausting.
speaker-1 (01:50)
Yes. I mean, if you had a dream, and you’re feeling discouraged, the first thing that I want you to know is that you’re normal. It doesn’t mean there’s something wrong with you. I think there is a mental part of this of like, we need a motivational kick in the pants. And then there is a psychological part of understanding how the human brain works. And I hope we talk about both of those things today. And I want to start
with the psychological part in terms of why you’re normal. The human brain is not designed for success. The human brain is designed for survival. And there’s a big difference between success and survival. To survive means to stay safe. To survive means to conserve energy. To survive and stay alive means to do what is not risky, to do things that are predictable.
Everything about survival is about safety. What does it mean to be successful? Almost exactly the opposite.
Success is about doing things that make you uncomfortable. Success is about doing new things. Success is about taking chances. Success is about doing things you’ve never done before. And so if you’re feeling discouraged, it doesn’t mean there’s something wrong with you. It doesn’t mean that God doesn’t have it, you know, in your destiny to be successful. It doesn’t mean that your calling isn’t important. It doesn’t mean that you’re not qualified. It means that you have a perfectly functioning
healthy, normal human brain, but that that normal human brain is pulling you to safety and security and comfort and predictable. And you’re just experiencing the tension between
the way that your brain is designed first and foremost to keep you alive and you becoming the person you need to be, which is somebody that is comfortable being uncomfortable, somebody who is willing to do things that other people don’t do, someone who is willing to do things that you don’t like doing or don’t feel like doing just because they’re new things. So you’re in the middle of an important journey. You’re not backwards. You’re not behind.
You’re right where you’re supposed to be, but you are at a point where you got to decide, you going to turn back to the way you’ve always done things, or are going to follow the calling and keep going forward? And I think today’s episode is about helping make sure you keep going forward.
speaker-0 (04:25)
Alright, so I have a personal question for you. Yeah, I don’t think I know the answer to this.
speaker-1 (04:27)
personal question.
It’s like date night. On
date night we try to ask questions to each other that we don’t know the answer
speaker-0 (04:36)
Is there something that you have given up on in your life that you truly quit that you look back now and you really regret?
speaker-1 (04:45)
Wow, yeah, that’s a deep one, babe. Say it again.
speaker-0 (04:50)
⁓ Is there
something in your life that you truly gave up on that you quit that looking back now you really regret that you didn’t see it through?
speaker-1 (04:58)
No, ⁓ there’s not. And I know that’s not the like empathetic answer and like, but it’s there is not. There’s some like crazy dreams that I have, know, like, ⁓ you know, I’ve always had a dream of like a TV show for speakers like ⁓
speaker-0 (04:59)
Wow.
No, but
I mean something that you actually-
speaker-1 (05:17)
Yeah, like something
real. mean, the closest thing would be not winning the world championship of public speaking. You know, that was something I really, really wanted. And I came in second in the world. And, you know, it’s like, you know, I could have gone back and do it, but I realized it really wasn’t about the title. It was about the person who became the process. So
speaker-0 (05:38)
Do you regret
going back a third time? do you wish that like hindsight 2020? It’s like, no, I wish I would have gone back and tried for.
speaker-1 (05:46)
first.
don’t. don’t. And I think that’s actually an important part of the conversation of this is to go my life, you know, early on, it was like trying to achieve destinations.
And it was really about like, want to conquer this thing. And I think as I’ve studied success more and tried to adapt it in my own life, I really embraced the idea that it’s like, it’s actually not about the destination. It’s about who I’m becoming in the process. ⁓ You know, as the famous philosopher Miley Cyrus once said, it’s all about the climb. ⁓ And so I think that’s relevant.
It’s not that I haven’t failed. mean, that would be an example. I guess you technically could say I failed to reach that goal. But what didn’t fail was my ultimate destination was I wanted to become one of the best speakers in the world. didn’t it wasn’t the world championship that was the finish line. It was inspiring people and changing them and setting that up. And in many ways, I we’ve been able to do that. And there’s still another level to that that I’m still pursuing. But there’s not a finish line to that. And so I think a part of
what you have to do is you have to learn to fall in love with the daily grind. have to fall in love with the idea that
I’m going to experience losses along the way or what people would call losses. I didn’t get that. I wanted to have a number one New York Times bestseller. We’ve hit the New York Times twice now, neither time number one. I would have loved to do that, but it’s like, ⁓ it wasn’t really about, that’s not what writing a book is about. It’s not about the number one New York Times bestseller. It’s about writing a book that changes the world, forwards our business, codifies what we believe in, and those things are all
available and more meaningful. And so I think sometimes people get discouraged because like they didn’t get the result. you know, we did a big launch recently and it was like, I would have loved to have a better result. But we had effective progress. And so I think that is a psychological switch that people need to flip in their brain to go,
Yes, I’m moving towards results, but what I’m really interested is strengthening my character, creating better processes, enforcing consistency, knowing that even though I didn’t get on paper the W, the win that I wanted in the way I got the win, the long term is the game that I’m playing and I’m on track for that as long as I don’t quit. So I haven’t ever quit something that
like I was in the middle of just because it was hard or just because it wasn’t going the way I wanted. I can’t honestly say that I have. I’ve gotten close to quitting.
speaker-0 (08:48)
What number did take the stairs? Do you think that’s a coincidence?
speaker-1 (08:50)
Number two, New York Times.
I’ve thought about this a lot. So I got number two, world champion of public speaking, number two for Take the Stairs. There was a college, ⁓ you know, in college there was an award called the Student Excellence Award that I won at one time. I was the runner up for that. I did end up winning that two years later. But ⁓ it’s possible that there’s a coincidence to it because I think part of how I view this is anytime I don’t
get what I want. I view that as both a question of my own motives, of like, did I really want to help people or did I really want something for me? And the other thing I use it as a question of is a question of faith, of do I trust God because God sent me in a direction but it didn’t actually come true.
like in the way I thought it was going to come true, in the way I wanted it to come true. ⁓ And so, I think that’s a test of faith is to go, will you continue going forward? Will you continue to trust me even though what you’re experiencing right now in this moment is not the way you would have drawn it up? To me, that’s the very essence of faith.
speaker-0 (09:51)
and the way you.
Yeah. And I share that because I’ve often thought about that, you know, too, of, know, the way we want success often looks different than the way that God sees success. And for the person who’s, you know, on the verge of giving up or quitting, how much of that really does come down to is I just didn’t think it would look like this. I thought it would be different than this. I thought it would be easier than this, or I thought this would have happened. And because our own expectations, which were founded in nothing really,
other than what we wanted, aren’t met in the exact way that we wanted.
speaker-1 (10:47)
That’s, mean, look, the difference between gratitude and frustration can be explained simply with frustrations, right? If my expectation level is here and what I’m experiencing is above that, I experience gratitude. If my expectation level is here and what I’m experiencing is below that, I experience frustration. The only difference is where is the expectation, right? And so, I think when people place expectations on God, on themselves, on other people,
speaker-0 (11:14)
success, marriage,
speaker-1 (11:15)
where you think
you’re supposed to be at this age, where you think you’re supposed to be, you know, at this many years in the business, you’re setting an expectation level, again, basically based on nothing or typically on comparison, which is even worse. And, and that’s where your emotions are coming from, is this baseless set of expectations. Now, I try to hold myself to high standards.
But I have low expectations, right? It’s like I’m sort of pleasantly surprised with whatever result we do get even if it’s beneath and that’s a concept. Everything we’re talking about here, by the way, is inside of the Take the Stairs book, right? This is like what I built my career on because that’s what I built my life on. And there’s a section in Take the Stairs, which is my first book for those of that don’t know, where I talk about
Successful people put their self-esteem in their work habits, not in their results. And it’s one of the most defining characteristics because even if you’re a top performer,
If you experience low self-esteem because you didn’t get the result you wanted, then you’re going to quit at some point. But if you’re a low performer who just goes, I’m just focusing on my work ethic, I’m controlling what I can control, I’m getting better, then over the long haul, it’s going to work out. And, you know, I don’t mean to over-spiritualize it, but you know this. My life verse is Hebrews 12-11, which says that,
of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it. And I’ve put my faith in that verse my whole life to say, what feeling good right now is not an essential criteria or measurement or determinant of my success. It’s actually completely irrelevant to my success because God’s Word tells me, common sense tells you,
Ultra-performers will corroborate, as will data, that in the long term, if you do the fundamentals, that ultimately you will reap a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it. And I look back on my life and go, man, lots of seasons have been hard, but I look at where I am and I go, well, I don’t know how else to describe what I’m experiencing other than a harvest of righteousness and peace.
speaker-0 (13:42)
Yeah, I think I love that take on it. And I love that you’re able to look back and go, hey, there was nothing really that I gave up on. And there was nothing that I didn’t follow through. ⁓ For the person, unfortunately, I can’t say that I was like making a mental list. like, I have like a page full of things.
speaker-1 (14:00)
I mean, I’m curious. Yeah, now I’m curious about what…
speaker-0 (14:02)
Like, well, I know, where do
you want to start? But it’s like as I was reflecting and thinking of like, why did I not see dance through? Because you know, I was in a company, right? I was a dancer for 13 years. I just I realized, like I was thinking, it’s like, I just didn’t want it as bad as the other girls did. I was more concerned with, am I going to be available for social hour? ⁓ You know, and I think a lot of that had to do with insecurities of really wanting to be liked and really wanted to be in the in group. ⁓
And what I regret is that I let down my company.
I regret that I didn’t practice as hard as they did and that I was not as prepared as they were. I some of them went on to Juilliard and the Atlanta School of Ballet. Like they were very good because they practiced really hard. I didn’t have that level of commitment as a young teenager. I just didn’t. have like a long list of things that I’m like, I wish I probably would have saw that through and that went through. I was a different person then. And that’s not who I am today. But I would, I think we’re
My question is, is for the person who’s going like, yeah, maybe I just don’t want it as bad as I used to.
speaker-1 (15:10)
you.
That I think is a fair question because because you asked me and I say like, I would describe myself as someone that I have an extremely I have always had an extremely high level of commitment and focus to a very few small number of things. Right. And and so the paradox principle of sacrifice from take the stairs says, okay, how do people pull themselves through the muck? How do you endure the pain?
about that. ⁓ So when you ask that question, what is what must I do in order to endure the suck of achieving the goal? And it’s simple, you leverage long term vision to endure short term sacrifices. That’s it. So if someone is struggling with discipline, a lot of times people will say, Rory, I’m struggling with a lack of discipline. But in reality,
It’s not that they’re struggling with a lack of discipline as much as they’re struggling with a lack of vision. In other words, discipline becomes dormant in the absence of a dream. If I have a clear vision and it’s the vision I really want and I spend time thinking about it and I allow myself the permission to dream about it coming true,
then it creates a naturally strong connection. Think of it like a safety line, right? Like ⁓ that is pulling me through all of the muck it takes to get there. Inversely or conversely, if I don’t have a clear vision of what I want or…
I it’s fuzzy or I have a vision but I don’t really want it that bad or I have a vision and I don’t think about it that often or I have a vision but I don’t allow myself the permission to have it because I think it’s really unrealistic because it is unrealistic for all of us at first but if you don’t have that then you don’t have a more line to pull you through the muck and so you don’t because in this instance
there’s a context for the sacrifice to take place. There’s something that I want, I’m willing to do whatever it takes to get there. In this one, there’s not anything I really want, which means my brain is gonna default to whatever is most convenient, most comfortable.
in the short term and so we don’t. And so I think that’s part of what, and this is a place where I do struggle a little bit relating with some people and I think for the most part people are like, Rory’s a nice guy, but when I coach my private clients and even if I’m coaching a young speaker, when I look at the cost of our brand builders group program, I was having this conversation recently with someone on our sales team. I go, if you, we are giving people,
what I believe is more valuable than a four-year, six-year degree in this whole space for less than the price that you would pay to take one class for one semester in college.
I believe our program legitimately is as valuable as a four-year degree if you want to be a speaker, author, coach, consultant, or if you’re an expert of any kind. And we give you the entire freaking program for less than one college class.
plus the live experiences, plus the AI bots to execute it. And I go, I’m sorry, but if you can’t come up with a few thousand dollars to invest in your dream, then quit your dream now. Because if you’re not spending that money and time with us, then what are you spending it on? And I go, if you’re not doing it, like you’re not gonna make it.
speaker-0 (19:03)
Well, that comes back to the difference of do you say you want it or do you really want it? Exactly. It’s like, do you want it bad enough? Do you really want it?
speaker-1 (19:13)
Do you want it enough to endure what it takes to get it? That’s the real question. Right? It’s like, yeah, everybody would love to have a New York Times bestseller. Okay, here’s a more, funnier example of me in the opposite, right? It’s like, so we, know, I’ve been using AI to write songs, as you know, right? And it’s like, I’d ⁓ love to be a music star. Like, I would love my songs to be all over the radio. Like, I think they’re really good. And I would love to have famous people sing the songs and get millions of dollars in royalty checks.
But I don’t love it enough to endure what I would have to do to get it. What I’d have to give up to get it, to hustle and to build the relationships with a whole new industry of people and like, you know, cannibalize the time of the vision that we’re pursuing now and everything. like, yeah, it’s like, it’s a dream. It’s not, it’s not
actually a goal. It’s not something that I’d be willing to commit to. And so because of that, it’s a hobby, right? And I go, yeah, I’ll throw a little time at it just for fun. But like, that’s the question is, do you want it? Do you want it bad enough? And I will say for many, for many people watching,
you don’t actually want it bad enough and you’re gonna get destroyed by people who do want it bad enough. And I actually think it’s an honorable decision to say, yeah, you know what, I actually don’t really want this. I thought I did, but I don’t really want it. I think that’s an honorable decision. I think you should go all in on something you genuinely care about because you can’t compete, you can’t kind of compete and play against professionals. In the world of personal branding these days, you better bring your fricking A game because you’re competing with Cody Sanchez and Alex Hormone.
and Louis Howes and Amy Porterfield and Jenna Kutcher and Ed Milet and John Maxwell and it’s like maybe you’re not playing on that level but you’re playing against people who care about their calling and I go if you can’t invest a little money and a little time to do this you might as well just give up now. That’s you know the unfriendly Roy but that’s how I honestly feel.
speaker-0 (21:15)
Why, you know, it’s interesting because I hear a lot of people talk about, you can tell Roy is heated about this topic. I have struck a chord. have struck a chord. ⁓ but people, lot of times they say, well, I’ve just, I’m so passionate about this. And I think people use that word loosely. And we talked about this here recently of like the actual definition of passion is being willing to suffer for something. And it’s like, when you say I’m passionate about something, you’re going, no, I am willing to suffer. am willing to endure. I am willing to do the
speaker-1 (21:20)
You’ve hit a
speaker-0 (21:45)
hard stuff. I am willing to be inconvenienced. I am willing to suffer, right? I want to just like highlight that word for the thing that I love.
speaker-1 (21:53)
This is why they call it the passion of the Christ. Yeah, mean, but it’s so again, it’s all spiritual.
speaker-0 (21:56)
I knew you were going to truth,
I think it’s the difference between passion versus interests, passion versus hobbies. There’s a difference there. And it’s like, are you interested in this? I eat you.
speaker-1 (22:12)
My music,
new songwriting.
speaker-0 (22:14)
passionate about this. And if you’re passionate about it, that means you can’t not do it. That means you’re willing to suffer for it. So I just, wanted to just reconcile some of the conversation to the person that we’ve, you know, kind of started with, like that you’ve begun to give up, that you’ve begun to recoil, that you’ve begun to stop doing the things. And it’s like, maybe, maybe the first thing that you can do after listening to this episode is go, ⁓ is this an interest or a passion? And perhaps there’s
There’s a line of difference that you need to recognize in this thing that you’re doing. It’s like, no, this is something I’m interested in versus this is something I’m passionate in. Because if it’s just an interest, it’s a hobby and those can come and go, right? You spend more, you spend less, but that’s different than a passion and a calling.
speaker-1 (23:03)
And I think the difference between another difference between an interest and a passion is an interest is something that works out if it’s convenient for it to work out. Like if I have some extra time, I’ll deke around with songwriting. If I post it and it takes off and goes viral and okay, great, it works out. That’s different than a passion that goes, I’m going to do whatever it takes, right?
being a speaker, becoming one of the best speakers in the world wasn’t something that I lightly did or accidentally did or stumbled my way into. It was a commitment and a focus and an endurance and it still is, right? I still feel like I’m early in my speaking career of like really where I wanna be. And by the way, I don’t think it’s dishonorable at all.
to identify something as an interest. Totally. think what you’re saying is really important is just be honest with yourself.
speaker-0 (24:01)
And I think perhaps if you’re feeling a dwindling in something, I guess what I would maybe ask you to reflect on is, was it really just an interest? Was it really just something you’d like to do? Was it a hobby versus a calling and a passion? You know, as you were talking, I was thinking, I have a good friend, his name is Dennis. And what started as something that was just a hobby and interest was pickleball. And it was something that he did for fun. Then he kind of was like, hey, I’m pretty good at this. this now it’s a social thing. He did it with his wife and he was doing it with friends. Now it’s a full.
passion. And it’s like, here’s how I know it. It’s all he wants to talk about. He’s like, Hey, you want to get together and play pickleball? It used to be, Hey, do want to get together and talk about business? It’s like, ⁓ and everything is situated around his pickleball schedule and his now tournaments, what he’s reading, what he’s watching. And it’s like, I have watched this shift from, it’s something I casually do to it’s something I’m passionate about doing. He gets up at 5am to do it before work. He’s now watching game film. He’s hired a
coach, he’s now weight training so that he can have a better spring. He’s now reading books and he just got the lottery ticket for the U S open for pickleball. It has evolved into something and it’s, and I think the reason I called on that as you were talking is like, I’ve watched a hobby turn into a passion and there’s a difference. It’s Hey, this is something I do and I have time and it’s convenient versus no, I’m willing to be inconvenienced. I will spend my money, time and energy to learn about it, to do it, to talk about it, to practice it.
And that’s
Maybe that’s just some self-reflection that you can ask yourself. It’s do I read about this in my spare time? Do I talk about it when no one else is bringing it up? Is this what I spend time thinking about or dreaming about or journaling about? Is this what I’m asking questions? Is this the content I’m following? And if the answer is no to all of those, then maybe it’s just an interest and that’s okay. But then maybe you shouldn’t be beating yourself up so much. This is just a seasonal interest or something that has come and gone versus knowing the difference between a passion.
which is something you’re willing to suffer for, a true calling on your life.
speaker-1 (26:06)
And here’s a litmus test, another litmus test to know if something is a calling and a passion or just like a hobby and an interest. If your commitment is conditional, that means it’s a hobby and if your commitment is unconditional, that means it’s a passion and a calling. To me, the metaphor I’ve been thinking about a lot and coaching myself with is a wedge. I love a wedge. A wedge forces itself into something, right? Like you prioritize
speaker-0 (26:18)
That’s good.
speaker-1 (26:36)
You a passion. You prioritize a calling. You don’t wait for the time to be available. You make it available. It wedges its way into your life, into your conversation. You don’t go, if I have time, I’ll do that. It’s like, no, I’m gonna do that and then everything else will be, if I have time, I’ll do those things.
speaker-0 (26:59)
That’s good.
All right. Well, this is a good transition into our community question, which you get to read.
speaker-1 (27:08)
question I
to read to you okay so community question ⁓
One of our favorite segments. Okay, so these are from our members that are in our brand builders group membership program. They vote on the most pressing question and then they vote up, you know, which questions they think are most applicable to them. And the one with the most upvotes is the community question. So this week it’s from Sarah. Rory and AJ, I’ve been a brand builders group client for almost two years. Thank you, Sarah. I’ve done the workshops. I know my brand. I know my message. I genuinely believe in the work I do, but I cannot stay
consistent. I’ll be on a roll for two or three weeks posting showing up making progress and then something happens. A busy season, a hard week, a vacation and I fall completely off. You’re not alone. And then the shame of falling off makes it even harder to get back up. This cycle has been going on for two years. I’m exhausted by it. How do I break it for good? Wow. What a powerful honest question. ⁓ Yeah. AJ, why don’t you just solve this one for us?
speaker-0 (28:14)
⁓ Here’s what I would say is you got to ask yourself is there something in the cyclical nature of what you’re doing that isn’t sustainable and is that why you keep falling off? ⁓ And so I think that there’s a lot of things like if I just take the more tactical approach versus the mindset and the emotional approach.
speaker-1 (28:26)
That’s good tactical.
I’m gonna take the mindset
and emotion.
speaker-0 (28:36)
I figured you might, ⁓ is it’s really more of like, Hey, are you biting off more than you can chew? And that’s why there’s an ebb and a flow. Is it not sustainable in a hard week or on a vacation week? And you got to ask yourself, it’s like, okay, well, what would need to change to make this sustainable regardless of the week?
Regardless if I’m on vacation, if it’s a hard week, if I get busy, if someone gets sick, there’s got to be something that’s sustainable no matter what. And I guess another tactical thing is like I would give yourself three versions of what consistent looks like for you. I have a my routine.
consistent, I have a low consistent week and a high consistent week. So here’s what I mean by that is on a normal routine week, this is what I do. On a low week, in other words, I would say something unexpected happens. A child is homeschooled, from school sick. There was a family emergency. It’s a vacation.
speaker-1 (29:41)
We
icepocalypse.
speaker-0 (29:43)
We
have ice pop-o-lips. In other words, what your low consistency week is, this is my bare minimum. So you’re just setting three levels of consistency for yourself. This is a routine norm that I’m going to do on a normal week. Then give yourself the permission and in a off week, then you have my bare minimum expectations.
and give yourself some grace and some peace of going, I’m going to stay consistent, but consistent looks different for me in those weeks. And then also get, but counter that with a high consistency week, is, Hey, if you have extra time, I don’t know where that comes from, but if you do, if you have extra time in a week, it’s like, Hey, on those weeks, I’m going to do this. And now you have ranges. And I think a part of having ranges is what eliminates the guilt and the shame to give yourself the grace and the compassion of going like, Hey, there’s going to be unexpected stuff that happens.
to get sick. Family members are going to fall sick. You’re going to get sick. There’s going to be vacation days. Kids are going to be out of school. There’s going to be things that happen. So give yourself like, hey, bare minimum expectations are going to happen on my unexpected weeks. My norm is this. And when I have that extra time, if it ever comes, then this is what it’s going to look like for me. And that’ll give you permission to ebb and flow through all those without feeling guilt and shame while still staying consistent.
speaker-1 (31:00)
That’s good, that’s good.
For you Sarah that asked this question and anyone who is struggling with consistency where you’re on and then you’re off and you’re on and you’re off, you say this cycle has been going on for two years and I’m exhausted by it. How do I break it for good? Part of what I would say Sarah is I think you need to reframe this. You’re saying I’m exhausted by it. When I read this, I’m energized by it. You’re talking about how you keep coming back. You’re talking about how you’ve been in for two years. You’re talking about how you’re fighting. You’re talking about how you have over
overcome shame and gotten back on the horse. I’m not exhausted by this. I’m energized by this. This isn’t necessarily something that you have to break for good. This is just you’re building the muscle that it takes. Like you have to rethink how you’re thinking about it. And I think that the, you know, the devil plants these seeds of doubt like, ⁓ this isn’t working. You’re inconsistent. No, that’s what he’s saying because you’re almost there. You’re on track. Like you are doing the
thing. So just it’s you have to you have to celebrate what you are doing and not be so focused about what you’re not doing. Look, this whole episode is been about helping you understand that you may not get the wins and you might have to slow down. You might have to slow to a crawl. Just don’t stop. Just don’t quit. Progress over perfection.
Like the victory is not in whatever expectation you’ve got in your mind of what consistency looks like. The victory is that you have been facing rejection and difficulty and you keep going. That means you’re winning. That doesn’t mean you’re losing. That means you’re winning. Keep going. Keep going. Slow down if you must, but don’t you quit, Sarah.
speaker-0 (32:52)
Yeah, and I would just, I would add to that. It’s like, this is a good reminder of how muscle is built. Muscle has to be broken down before it can be built up, right? And that is literally what you’re saying here. It’s like in order to get stronger, there has to be things that are broken down and every single time you get back on and you do it again, it’s gonna get a little bit easier and you’re gonna get a little stronger. This is a reframe. This is not exhaustion. This is growth. This is ⁓ being energized. And I love that reframe.
Y’all, everyone who’s listening, I would just encourage you, like, if this message resonates with you, one, would you just save it and come back to it on those days when you feel defeated and go, no, I need to go back and listen to this motivational pep talk from Rory Vaden of why I gotta keep going and I can’t give up.
Or maybe you’re listening to this and you’re going, this episode was built for this person I know. I have to share it with them. They’re on the verge of giving up on something. I need to share it with them. Would you just do us a favor? Do them a favor and share this episode with someone that you know that this could help give them just enough spark to keep going. And while you’re at it,
If you wouldn’t do us, or if you wouldn’t mind doing us a favor and subscribe to this so that you can get those constant reminders and tips to keep going the strategies that you need, but also the heartfelt personal experience and motivation that what you do matters. so subscribe this, share this with a friend and come back next time to hear me and Rory talk it out on the wealthy and well-known podcast.
Keep going. Keep going. going. And subscribe. And keep.
speaker-1 (34:30)
Going. Keep. Going. Keep going.
That’s great.
Ep 017: More Money, More Problems? How Entrepreneurs Prevent Burnout
AJ (00:00)
gonna start by quoting Biggie Smalls. Mo money, mo problems. that’s not just a line in a rap song. Mo money, mo problems. You got mo stuff to…
RORY (00:09)
This
is why I this is I fell in love with you, babe.
Many, many entrepreneurs burn out because they don’t take care of themselves. They don’t follow the rhythms, the routines, and the priorities that we’re gonna be talking about on today’s episode. As an entrepreneur, business owner, like you, have to maintain your health and optimize your wellbeing, both mentally and physically. So we’re gonna talk about some of those ideas for how to do that with both myself, Rory Vaden, co-founder of Brand Builders Group.
I’m joined by my wife, my business partner and our CEO at Brand Builders Group, AJ Vaden. So excited to have this conversation, babe.
AJ (00:53)
Yeah, I think this is a good opportunity for reminders and refreshers for the both of us. And so as we’re reminded of all the things that work and what we should be doing, everyone else will get the benefits. ⁓
RORY (01:07)
There are some
topics that we teach that we do a really good job of and there’s other topics where it’s like we’re working progress. But I want to start the conversation with understanding why is it so stressful to be a CEO or and to be an entrepreneur? I think a lot of entrepreneurs, whether they’re just starting out or if they’ve been doing it for 30 years, I think there is this sort of destructive, limiting belief that a lot of them have that it’s like
AJ (01:13)
We’re working.
RORY (01:34)
shouldn’t be so hard and why is this so hard and if it’s this hard I must, you know, I must suck. Like I must be doing everything wrong or like everybody on my team is wrong or like just like this is terrible or it’s not God’s design. But you know when you zoom out I look at entrepreneurs on the whole and I go no this is kind of just like a hazard of the job. ⁓ And so I would love your perspective and opinion on why is it so stressful? Like what makes
the function and role of a CEO stressful. And then maybe we can try to first understand what is kind of normal ish, and then what is really like abnormal and then we can talk about the routines and rhythms for how to how to manage it all.
AJ (02:16)
Yeah, I think I would actually start with.
a not so often talked about shift from entrepreneur to CEO. Because as an entrepreneur, you typically start with doing everything. And so I liken to talk about there’s really two different definitions of CEO. And in the entrepreneur seat, a CEO is really the chief everything officer. do everything. They make the sales, they send the invoices, they pay the bills, they do the bookkeeping, they do the delivery, they
do the ideation, the execution, they do the marketing, and then eventually they hire someone and then someone else and then someone else and then someone else. But an entrepreneur starts as CEO, chief everything officer. And it’s really hard to make the leap from chief everything officer to chief executive officer. And I think there’s a, that’s just not discussed of when does everything start to fall off your plate.
And in what order does everything fall off your plate? So at some point you actually do become a CEO, which is chief executive officer, which means you’re making executive decisions. You’re not paying the bills anymore. You’re not sending the invoices. you’re not the one who is making every job post or delivering every client or having every sales call. And sometimes that shift happens quickly. And I say quickly, I mean, over five to 10 years, sometimes that shift never happens because the CEO,
entrepreneur wasn’t able to release things from their plate rather willingly ⁓ by choice or even by force.
And I think there’s a lot of that is your identity gets caught up in it. Or you just get so used to being so busy, you don’t know what to do with yourself if you don’t have all that stuff to do anymore. And I think there’s a lot of different things or you tried to pass it off and it didn’t work or someone left and then you live in the mindset of, I tried it once, it didn’t work, I’ll never do it again. Lots of things don’t work the first time. That doesn’t mean we don’t try again. But I think a lot of us live in that seat.
RORY (04:22)
So the I love this distinction between the chief everything officer, which is really an entrepreneur, CEO is a fancy title to a true chief executive officer. There seems to be stress at both places, though, like, you know, you people might think, if I was a true if I became a real CEO, and I had a bunch of people on my team to just do everything, I wouldn’t have stress and that at least not been my experience or observation that that is really what happens. It’s it’s like new levels, new devils ⁓ that
that kind of thing. what are some of the stressors that you think are normal that are kind of like, yeah, you’re going to experience this if you’re an entrepreneur or if you’re a CEO. ⁓ And then what are some of the things that maybe you try to go like, yeah, maybe this is where it is unhealthy or
AJ (05:14)
Yeah,
I think there’s two things that I would like to highlight. gonna start by quoting Biggie Smalls. ⁓ Mo money, mo problems. And that’s not just a line in a rap song. Mo money, mo problems. You got mo stuff to…
RORY (05:31)
This
is why I this is I fell in love with you, babe. Let’s talk about being a CEO by quoting Biggie Smalls. That’s my woman.
AJ (05:39)
But there is
some truth and it’s like you got my money you go have more problems And I think there’s a lot to that and people just think if I could just hit this revenue mark if I can just hit this net profit Mart if I just hit these income levels and as like well those come with more Responsibilities they come with more decisions they come with more more complexity and then they come with the second thing which is more people more problems Mm-hmm, right and I say that lovingly I love our team and I choose to have a team that’s not for everyone and I
think a lot of entrepreneurs don’t know that they don’t want a before they have one.
They realize it after the fact. Not everyone was meant to have a business where they manage a lot of team. that’s it. That’s it. That’s a choice. Like you have to have a love and a passion of building, growing, leading people to do that really well. And there’s a difference between why a lot of people became entrepreneurs because they didn’t want to work for someone else or they didn’t want to have to do, but it’s like you’re like, if you’re going to grow a business, you’re going to have to work with other people. Right. And those are your team. And so I think a lot of people get into this because they wanted freedom and flexibility and
They wanted to do their own thing and it’s like, well, once you start adding people and systems in place, well, some of that starts to shift because now there’s a team dynamic and you don’t get to make every decision on your own anymore because it impacts other people and their livelihoods and their families. And so I think there’s a lack of reckoning with that before you realize, ⁓ I’m growing. have to have more people. Wait, do I want more people? I don’t know. And I think a lot of us grow for the sake of we think growth is what we should do versus growing is what we want to do. ⁓
And I think a lot of that just comes from comparison and other issues. But I think this whole idea, like, you know, to what you were saying is what are some of the stressors that happen? And I think it’s like stress is going to come when you’re trying to do more than you’re capable of doing. And I say capable in terms of capacity. ⁓ And I think that we all have different levels of capacity.
And when you’re trying to do more than what you have capacity for is when stress comes. And I think it’s good for us all to remember, I think we use the term stress as negative. There are two different types of stress. There is a good stress, and then there is a bad stress. There is a stress that is good and healthy.
And then there is a stress that is not healthy and that is continued stress. There are some parts of quote unquote, term stress that are actually good and healthy. Biologically speaking, ⁓ they get us moving. get us doing things. They create awareness. It’s, but those prolonged are not good. it’s
RORY (08:17)
build muscle, build resilience and
AJ (08:24)
Daily minute stress, no problem. It just does that continue and compound day over day, week over week with no relief. And that’s where stress becomes really unhealthy. But stress in and of itself is not a bad thing. It’s just when it takes over and there’s no break, there’s no relief is when that becomes a bad thing. And that comes back to, you doing more than you have capacity to do?
RORY (08:48)
Yeah. And
the people topic is one that I think is a good example to go.
having people problems is normal. It’s expected. It’s hard, but it’s a healthy normal part of running a business if you have people. You have people problems not because your people are problems, but because the inherent nature of us as people is we go on vacation, we have babies, we burn out, we get bored, we have conflict with each other, right? And there’s just a natural like set of conflict, I think,
that comes from having a group of humans trying to do anything in close proximity. And that in and of itself, I think is an important realization for an entrepreneur to know, just like you’re saying is to go, if you’re bringing on people, you need to understand one, there’s going to be dynamics and challenges, there’s going to be amazing opportunity and growth that comes, but you’re signing up for increased complexity and some amount of challenges that are outside of your control. And you really have to
care about them and their their overall development as part of this.
AJ (10:00)
that what
you need to recognize is that as you bring on a team, you have to choose to become a leader, a leader of people. And it’s a, you’re adding on a whole new set of tasks and responsibilities from entrepreneur to entrepreneur to now I’m also adding in leader, leader of people. And those are ironically different.
RORY (10:24)
That is so good. Those are different. That is so true. You don’t have to be an entrepreneur. You don’t have to be a leader to be an entrepreneur. ⁓ you don’t necessarily, you don’t have to be an entrepreneur to be a leader. But the moment that you choose to scale a business and bring on people, you must also be a leader.
AJ (10:46)
You’re bringing on a whole new job and set of skills that I don’t think people recognize. ⁓ in other words, when it was just you or you and one person, it’s like, maybe you didn’t have to have so much formality such as one-on-one meetings or processes or systems or documentation and policies and, ⁓ benefits and, ⁓ team meetings. And it’s like, well, that all creates structure and guess what? That all takes time. And you didn’t double your time. You didn’t double your capacity.
And all of a sudden all these new things are creeping in and the old things haven’t come off. And that’s what I’m talking about with capacity. And so I think there’s a lot where that stress really starts to grow as we keep adding, adding, adding, and nothing falls off.
RORY (11:32)
Now.
I think, you know, it’s sort of a law of nature that if something is healthy, it grows. Right. ⁓ And I think I’ve always felt like if a business is healthy, it should generally be growing, barring like, you know, really crazy circumstances. And so that means there’s always going to be some stress, like your growth is always some level of stress. So the conversation shifts to going, OK, what can we do to manage that stress?
load as you’re saying some of it is healthy some of it’s unhealthy but there’s always stress there like if you’re growing there is stress.
AJ (12:11)
But not always bad, but yes. And even if you’re not growing their stress.
RORY (12:13)
huh. Yeah, so.
That’s right. Yeah.
If you’re if you’re declining, there’s there’s even more stress. Yeah, like there’s there’s there’s stress there too. So what are some of the practices? Yeah, the rituals that either you’ve done, you’ve seen other people do you’ve learned from that helped you sort of maintain? You know, we say in our new book, that peace is the new profit. ⁓ How have you tried to like, maintain that from a practical
AJ (12:41)
Yeah,
well, I would just say that if you relate to feeling like, yeah, I have way more work to do than I have hours in the day and I have zero capacity and I have to work on nights and I have to work on weekends and yeah, I’m exhausted. It’s like, well, I can relate to you. And I would just say you most likely can’t solve it on your own. So I’d say most of what I’m going to share, I have learned through lots of outside help, coaches, conferences, masterminds, mentors, ⁓ reading, know, prayer,
like this is not something that just comes.
RORY (13:16)
And if people don’t know
this about you and me, you’re a personal development junkie. Totally. We are personal development junkie.
AJ (13:22)
Totally.
⁓ Like one of the core values at Brain Builders Group is personal growth, i.e. personal development. So yes, I’m a huge advocate of it and apparently in this area, I’ve had to do it a lot for it to finally stick.
RORY (13:38)
Plus you’re
married, you’re married, you’re you have the extra blessing of being married to someone who adds a little extra stress along the way just just to keep you.
AJ (13:46)
But
here’s something that I have found. Now I’m a part of EO Nashville, the entrepreneurs organization here in Nashville. And I’ve had the immense privilege to have the same forum, which is like a small group within EO for 10 years. we’ve seen marriages come and go, businesses come and go, ⁓ business divorces. We’ve seen family members come and go. And it’s been a very deep relationship. And one of the things that I have seen
More that we’ve seen, you know, mergers, acquisitions and exits. So I’m just saying like first hand, real life, all the things, ⁓ resignations and hard decisions, like all the things. And one of the things that I’ve seen that causes the most stress in all of our lives is when we constantly ponder why.
And we just, we live in this, why did that happen? Why didn’t that work out? ⁓ Why, why, why? And there’s just not near enough conversation around what am I gonna do different? How can we move forward?
And I believe that in my own personal life and in the lives of the people that I get the closest front row seat to when we ruminate and why did this happen or why is it like this or why is the business declining or why didn’t that customer buy or why did that person resign or why didn’t they file the taxes on time? Why, why, why, why, why? We’re surrounding ourselves with problems and zero solutions. We’re not even giving ourselves the opportunity to go what needs to happen next.
How do we need to move forward? And I think it’s a really important thing where it’s like, would say most of my stress is when I sit there and try to figure out why isn’t this working versus what’s the next thing I can do? What’s the one thing I can do?
RORY (15:38)
You, not everybody watching knows this, you lost your mom when you were young. Did you ask that question why you were 15 years old? Of course. Right? So did you, how does that, I mean, I’ve never heard you talk about this until this very second about this distinction. And I, as you’re saying it, I’m going, that is so true. Like why doesn’t do much?
AJ (15:50)
Don’t
It
doesn’t do anything. ⁓ It does nothing for us.
RORY (16:04)
It keeps us ruminating in nothing
like productive really.
AJ (16:10)
Because even if you find the answer as to why, until you go do something about it, nothing changes.
RORY (16:17)
Did that, so did you learn that from your mom’s past?
AJ (16:21)
No, think I don’t know. don’t know. I think that I came to a very good healthy resolution years after she died of going, I have two perspectives that I can choose to move forward with. One is, why did this happen to me?
And give a whole bunch of excuses of why I was a rebellious teenager or why I don’t do this or why this happened or why I think this way. but those, those really did feel like a lot of excuses. And I think a lot of that work happened at a personal development conference. went to landmark forum and, ⁓ I think that during that retreat, right, it was like a three day retreat. I really learned it’s like, I can rather choose to live in this. Like, why did this happen to me? Why my family? Why my mom? Why, why, why?
And I like, at the end of the day, that wasn’t doing anything for me. Or the other perspective was to go like, what can I take from this event and do something positive with it? And it was a perspective shift that I made in my early 20s of like, it really did change my heart and my stance towards bad things happening to, I don’t focus on the bad, I focus on the good. And it’s like, a bad thing happened after
15 years of good things. So why don’t I talk about all the good things? Why do I talk about this one event that was really bad and I don’t talk about the other thousands of events and moments and memories that were really good? And then that made me think about in business and in sales. I remember in like my early days in sales, if I didn’t make a sale, that was the only thing I could think about.
I didn’t think about the 20 people who signed up that day. I thought about the two who didn’t follow through. And so it was like for me, it was a full life shift around I get to choose what I focus on. The bad events or the good events. And I think that’s just a choice for all of us. In the middle of, you know, we had someone recently ⁓ resign in their role at Bremboilers Group.
Right? And it’s like, I can really just get myself up in arms of like, what am I doing wrong as a leader? And don’t, and like, don’t get me wrong. I probably had a good 16 seconds of that. And before I had to like check myself, but then I had to look around and go, oh yeah. And we have 41 people who are still here. So do I want to focus on this one person who just wasn’t a fit for where we’re at in this culture of business growth? Or do I want to focus on the 41 people who were like raising their hands, going, I’m here for it. Those are choices. Bad things happen simultaneously.
with good things all around you. And I think bad stress happens when we only focus on the bad things that are happening and we’re like, why did this, why did this, why did this? Because you could also ask yourself, why is all this good stuff happening? But we don’t do that. We ask, why is the bad stuff happening? We don’t ask, why is all this good stuff happening? And I think we have to really have a good healthy discipline of countering the two. And I just don’t think we as human beings in the current state that we live in do that naturally, do that on our own. ⁓
life coach that I talk to every month that has to like bring me back to this every month because I can’t do it on my own. I have a prayer practice and a journal practice every morning where the Lord brings me back to this every morning because I don’t do it on my own.
RORY (19:39)
Yes,
I want to talk about that. mentally speaking here, there’s a big transition of going, how do you how do you stay mentally, emotionally healthy? It’s spend less time asking why and asking more time what what can be done? ⁓ It’s spending less time going. You know what bad thing happened and going spend more time thinking about what the good things were that happened when you get.
AJ (20:07)
police
counter.
RORY (20:08)
At least counter it. I mean, coming back to your mom, that’s always resonated with me that you’ve always said, you know, I don’t think of it as I lost my mom when I was only 15. I think about it as I had 15 years with the best mom ever. ⁓ And I think that’s just that’s a choice. Like that is a choice. So that’s on the mental side. ⁓ What about the practical side, the pragmatic? Like, what are the things you do in your schedule? What are the things that
activities that you engage in? Are there any other like actionable things?
AJ (20:44)
Yes.
Yeah. So I want to talk about three very specific actionable things that I think really matter a lot when it comes to how do you prevent burnout in your own, in your own life, reduce stress and actually enjoy what you do. And I think most of us who are business owners, entrepreneurs, we did this because there was a love and a passion for it. And I think it was Mike McCalliwitz I heard who say this is the biggest threat to any small business.
is that the founder just decides they don’t want to do it anymore because it becomes too much work, too much stress, too much burnout, and they’re tired. So how do you prevent that? Because that’s definitely not why you started. And I think there’s some things you have to have in place. I think the very first thing is that you actually have to have time to think.
I think most CEOs or entrepreneurs in both categories, chief everything officer or chief executive officers. If you’re, if you run with a rhythm of meeting to meeting to meeting to meeting to meeting to meeting to meeting, you have no time to think or process. So that just means you’re just making decision after decision after decision without any time to reflect, pause, think, ideate, brainstorm, counter ask questions. And it’s just not a healthy pace to be in. Again, you can do it for a short amount of time. You can do it for a day or a day every
but it can’t be every day of every week. At some point, and I use this term a lot for myself, it’s like, you’re gonna have decision fatigue. And that happens when there isn’t time to think. So schedule time in your calendar that is for strategic thinking. And then don’t schedule over it, right?
RORY (22:28)
And are you talking about
like morning routine? Are you talking about like during the day?
AJ (22:32)
During the day, Monday, I block my calendar from 2 p.m. to 5 p.m. Every Monday. Now, for those of you who listening, another practice that I have, because I have a business partner, is that we have a Monday morning walk that is our business meeting.
RORY (22:46)
That’s me.
AJ (22:50)
So, but I think there’s two things there. One, we’re business partners, we have a weekly meeting. If you have a business partner, or even this could be your executive team, you need a weekly meeting.
That’s not with everyone, but it’s with your business partner or your executive team. And it’s a three hour meeting. It’s not a 30 minute standup. It’s not a one hour stat review. This is a three hour. What’s the most important things? What do we have to discuss? What do we need to get on the same page with? What did I do last week that I didn’t tell you or vice versa? What’s happening this week that we may or may not know about, but it’s a three hour. So think that’s the first thing. If you’re not hearing me is there is a three hour business meeting with your partner or executive team every.
RORY (23:29)
week.
And I will say we started Brand Builders Group on three hour walk around a park and
Now we have 50 employees between the three businesses almost and a lot more complexity. In every stage, there has been enough to fill a three-hour meeting every Monday and more. If you’re not spending at least that much time together, everything splinters and fractures and goes crazy and creates stress.
AJ (24:01)
and create stress. Yeah. And then
you’re trying to catch up on nights and
RORY (24:05)
Because I think when you have a business partner, even if you have an executive team, one of the causes of stress is you have people running really hard in different directions. And we’ve been guilty of that. All the time. If we don’t sync, we run so hard that we just end up like, even if we’re one degree off, we’re
AJ (24:24)
And
creates
a lot of frustration for our team because then they hear two different messages or two different areas of focus. But I want everyone to hear it’s like that’s the first thing to actually not have burnout is to have this routine meeting that you don’t miss. The second thing if you didn’t catch what I heard is it’s not in a boardroom. It’s not in a conference room. It’s not at your computer. It’s not at your desk. We do it on a walk. And I think that’s really important because this becomes more about a conversation than an agenda. ⁓ It creates freedom and flexibility.
to talk about things versus what’s next. What’s next? It’s not a PowerPoint presentation. This is a conversation. Two, I have found, this is for me, not for Rory, but moving helps keep my stress level down. So as we’re getting into things that we don’t disagree on.
RORY (25:09)
And
if your stress level is down, my stress level is down. So it is for me.
AJ (25:13)
But
these are things for like when we may not have ⁓ alignment on and I have found that being in nature Specifically in nature helps me go
RORY (25:22)
If y’all haven’t noticed AJ’s hair is really red and it’s it’s you know, it’s it’s it’s indicative of certain certain behavioral ⁓ patterns. There’s some fire some truth. There’s some truth to the fiery redhead.
AJ (25:37)
Bye.
I’m not not agreeing with that. ⁓ But being in nature helps keep me centered and remembering these conversations. These problems are very small. God is big. The world is big. This is small. God is big. The world is big. ⁓ And so, again, just a perspective shift that I don’t get in a boardroom because in a boardroom, I’m looking at stats and metrics and agendas and my mind goes elsewhere. So you got to find that. Maybe that doesn’t work for you, but those are just two things every Monday. So I start my Monday.
from 8 to 11 in a very important business meeting with my partner, but then from 2 to 5, I’m in my own meeting with myself. And that’s my strategic thinking time. And a lot of that is I put that on my calendar because there were so many things I needed to go back, write down, reflect on, take action on from my meeting with Rory.
And it’s like, also have a meeting with my chief of staff. You know, some of you may call it an EA right after my meeting with Rory. And it’s like, usually it’s like that helps me prioritize my week. And I don’t wait to the end of the week to tackle those things that happens on Monday for me. And so I have found that there are good rhythms and patterns that work really well for me. And stacking my Monday with meetings is unhealthy for me. A lot of people start, they have meeting Mondays. That’s not healthy for me. I can’t have a meeting Monday. I have to have a thinking Monday, a planning Monday.
and most of my meetings happen on Tuesdays, Wednesdays, and Thursdays. So if I’m gonna take calls and meetings, they’re never on Mondays and they’re never on Fridays. So I have themes and blocks of time for each day of the week so that I’m in a good ⁓ mental pattern of this is what I do on this day. And that has been a very healthy routine, but I don’t start the meeting.
or my Mondays with meetings because they’re crazy. And then I just start the week behind. And I think people who have the Sunday blues, right? And they’re like, tomorrow’s Monday. It’s because they know what’s coming on Monday, which is it’s a full eight hour marathon. So I didn’t want to have that. And…
That was up to me. I get to make that decision, so I don’t have a bizarre Monday. I have a very well-paced strategic meeting and then a meeting with myself to make sure that I’m well planned for the week.
RORY (27:55)
I also want to highlight one thing about the meeting that we have. ⁓ If you’re married or you work with your spouse, I want to make sure people know this is where we talk about work stuff. We do not talk about work stuff at night and on the weekend because that’s a mistake that I made for years. Yeah, we both made of like we have to have dedicated part of treating the business like a business is giving it ample space and time during the workday to talk about work stuff.
and not cramming the workday with everything else and then having the strategic stuff try to spill over into the nights and weekends. It’s not a good formula. That’s a recipe for stress, not a recipe for peace and scalability.
AJ (28:40)
was the first thing. That was a long answer. I’ll make the other two quite shorter. But the first one is just meeting rhythms and how you spend Mondays. I think Mondays set the tone for the week, at least for me. And running a company and a business and making sure I’m well planned and thought out for all the one-on-ones I’m going to have, team meetings, metrics meetings, financial reviews, whatever is happening that week, it can’t be on Monday. It’s not healthy for me. The second thing is how I start my day, right? And so think this is a really important part. It’s like if you start your day ⁓ in a tailspin, you’re going to end your day in a tailspin.
So I have a really good healthy morning routine. Your morning routine can be whatever it is, but for me, I know that between ⁓ six and seven, that has to be just my time with the Lord.
And when I have that time, I have a good day. And if I don’t get to have that day, that time with the Lord, I usually have a hard day. And it’s because I didn’t have a time to sit and reflect and be grateful and to be in the word. that just, what it does, it just sets the tone of what am I grateful for? What have I been blessed with? And anything that that’s hard that I have to face that day, I’ve already countered it with all the good that’s in my life. Bad things happen all the time, but I choose to counter it with the good things that the
word has given me by talking with him about it every morning.
RORY (29:56)
So I want to double tap on that because, you know, second nature for us at this point. like to somebody who goes, you know, I picture somebody listening to that being like, wait, you spend an hour reading Leviticus like every day? Like, how do you spend an hour reading the Bible or like what are you doing there? Like to go, that doesn’t seem, you know, exciting or maybe sleepy or whatever. know, like, ⁓ how do you how do you break that hour apart?
AJ (30:25)
If
you’re not a believer, that could be reading a personal development book or if you’re of a different faith, it’s reading whatever. So I would just say it’s your spiritual time, it’s your faith time. But mine’s a combination and I’m stealing this from the book. Jamie Winship wrote the book, Living Fearless. I was not a journaler prior to reading that book. I actually thought journaling was pointless and useless until I realized it wasn’t. It was a great revelation for me a couple of years ago when I started this practice.
⁓ But here are the prompts and I do these same prompts every single day. The first thing is I say, Lord today I’m grateful for. And then I share what I’m grateful for. And it’s sometimes the same, sometimes different. I journal just in case I forget. Right? So that’s the first thing. The second prompt is, Lord today I pray for.
RORY (31:07)
In your journal you write
AJ (31:17)
and I pray for people, pray for business, I pray for change, I pray for whatever. But those are the first two things. Then my third prompt is, Lord, what do you want to reveal to me today? Then I go to the Bible. So that’s how I start my Bible study.
RORY (31:31)
And you got, so you got those questions from Jamie.
AJ (31:34)
Well, there’s another one,
so I’m not done. okay. So, Lord, what do you want to reveal to me today? And that’s when I go to the Word. That’s when I go to Scripture. ⁓ And lo and behold, every single day, He has something to reveal to me. So then I go back to my journal and I write down what it was. Like, what stuck out to me? And I have a highlighter in my Bible, and there’s just always something that sticks out in a new and different way. It could be a verse, it could be a whole book, it could be a whole chapter, but there’s always something. And then I write it down, and then my last prompt is, Lord, what do you want me to do with that?
Not why did you reveal that, but what do you want me to do with that Lord? What’s my action item from here? And that’s how I have clarity of how to move forward in that day.
RORY (32:14)
So you’re literally having a conversation with God. Every day. Asking, what do want to reveal to me? Then you look at the Word, find the answer, and then you record the answer.
AJ (32:26)
That’s
the hour. And so it’s not like I’m reading scripture the whole time, but maybe 20 to 30 minutes of that time is like in the word reading. And I just look for guided plans. I’m not trying to figure it all on my own. I find guided plans, read through a Bible in the year. I’m doing a deep dive in a certain book, whatever it is. I find plans and I follow the plan. But here’s what I would say is important if you’re faith curious or you’re a follower. It’s like, if you go, he’ll always show you something.
And it’s always something that you need right then and there. And I just always need something. ⁓ There’s always something to learn. There’s always something to be shown. But that’s how I start my day. So my Monday routine is really important to me. My morning routine is really important to me. And then the third thing. ⁓
RORY (33:09)
hold on. So before
we get to the third thing, feel like, ⁓ forgive me, but I got to do a shout out here for the Eternal Life podcast. if any of you, if you struggle, if you’re a very logical, analytical person like I am and you struggle with faith, ⁓ that used to be me. I was a skeptic of faith and specifically Christianity and didn’t, I just struggled to believe that somebody had performed miracles and walked on water and raised from the dead. ⁓
And over 20 years, I put a lot of time into studying the history, the archaeology, and the logical and academic evidence to support the Christian faith. And I consolidated all of those findings into a free podcast called Eternal Life, Seven Questions Every Intelligent Skeptic Should Ask About Jesus. And it’s not meant to convert you. It’s just a presentation of the logical evidence that I found that is how I became a very devout convicted
believer, not on a spiritual encounter, but through a deep logical exploration. So you can check out the Eternal Life podcast if you or someone you know is like, know, faith curious but struggling with some of that. so back to number three.
AJ (34:25)
I
think more than anything, ⁓ not more than anything else, but I would say one of the things that has been most revolutionary in my life that I really truly underestimated the power of more than anything else. Like I didn’t underestimate the power of spending time with the Lord or having a good schedule. I didn’t underestimate. I knew that was important. I just had to make time for it. What I truly underestimated more than anything else was the importance of diet.
and physical fitness. And I always, I just don’t have time for that. And it’s like, now if I don’t make time, I feel the impact. Like I was really blind to how important it was for me to have a physical release of stress. And that looks different for all people.
RORY (35:11)
So this
is something we’ve learned about you together in the last couple of years. We didn’t know this about you. We knew this subconsciously, but we didn’t bring this into our consciousness about you, which you are a high energy burner.
AJ (35:23)
Congress.
high energy
burner which means if I do not have intense physical movement all my stress I tell I tell my kids I’m like ⁓ what’s his name shadow and Sonic if you’ve ever seen the third song yeah he’s got chaos energy and he runs around ⁓ chaos energy and that’s me I’m shadow from Sonic unless I release it and so I have to figure out it’s got to be a very brisk walk it has to be hot yoga it has to be punching a bag or playing
RORY (35:41)
of Sonic 3.
AJ (35:58)
intense game of pickleball with my kids. It has to be an energy release. A casual walk ain’t gonna do it. It’s gotta be an intense release, but it’s like even sometimes Roy will just look at me and he’s like, you need a walk? I’m like, I need a walk. And I’ll come back a different person. It’s like, what happened?
RORY (36:13)
Well, because because because I’m the opposite, right? It’s like yoga for me. I want a nap, right? I want a massage. Like I’m completely
AJ (36:21)
That’s
why like, whatever it is, but it’s still a physical release. I think that’s what people have to realize. Yours could be a nap. It could be a massage. Mine is a physical release of energy because all that stress builds up. And that’s where you just have to spend time going like, what does my body need? Not my mind. What does my body need to keep up with?
RORY (36:24)
Yeah.
my
mind. And by the way, here is a little bit of physiology and that we learned this is a scientific thing. We had you had a doctor that prescribed to you that said you need to hit stuff that there is a chemical release that happens in your body when you hit things. so rather than hitting me, we got a punching bag and 10 paddle sports we got we got we have we have pickleball now, but we have table tennis,
⁓ and real tennis and just anything where you can actually like make physical contact with.
AJ (37:17)
It’s amazing how much it makes a difference and again every body physical body is different So you have to know yours, but I truly underestimated how keeping my body in check actually allowed me to keep pace with my workload And so there is like for me a physical release. It might maybe it’s a power nap. Maybe you’re like Rory and it’s like
RORY (37:38)
You’re either sloth mode or your tiger mode. Like it’s probably ⁓ one of these two. And by the way, like you see this because when guys get frustrated, this happens sometimes, they punch a wall, right? And that like when guys get super duper wound up and get so angry, they will punch a wall. This is ⁓ a biological.
AJ (37:44)
⁓ But it matters. It matters a lot.
Gotta have a relief. Gotta-
Here’s what I would tell you if it doesn’t come out and a physical release it comes out in anger It comes out in frustration. It comes out and other physical ailments. It’s gonna come out If you guys have never read the book the body keeps the score It’s like the body holds on to your stress You have to figure out how to release it to be a better healthier happier person for your team for your family and for yourself And so the physical release is a huge part of my routine now, but then also the diet part again I totally truly
underestimated of a clean diet makes me a better productive leader.
RORY (38:40)
And I want people
to understand, we’re not talking about losing weight, being in shape, looking great. We’re talking about these are the things that are essential and critical and necessary for entrepreneurs for their mental health, their spiritual well-being.
AJ (38:56)
you
Extra hydration is necessary for the brain. what I used to think, I have eight glasses of water a day. I’m doing a great job. And it’s like, you need half of your body weight in water every day. And if you have a different type of drink, in ounces, if I have a coffee, then I need to add another eight ounces to counteract that. So I watch my water intake like a boss because your brain physically needs it to be high functioning. Other things of like when I have protein,
versus other things so I never have anything sugary or carby before I have a protein.
RORY (39:33)
Carby should
definitely be a word just for the record.
AJ (39:37)
But I’m just like, these are things that I’m going like.
My mind has been blown how these changes have changed my capacity, my mental capacity, my physical stamina that I’d really underestimated. I’m like, that’s a bunch of hoopla. No, it’s not. ⁓ It’s science. It’s sciency. is sciency. sciency. And so those are things which, however, again, I would just say if you’re listening to this and you’re like, can’t be that simple, right? You have a low stress Monday, you spend some time with the Lord, eat some protein and drink a lot of water. That’s what you’re saying?
I’m like, yeah, that’s what I’m saying. And over the last two and a half years, my stress level, my work capacity, my fatigue, my energy levels, you’re gonna test to this. am healthier, better and younger at 42 than I was at 32 by a long shot because I take these things serious now for my mental, physical and spiritual health.
RORY (40:34)
Here’s how you need to think about this. If you had a horse…
Let’s say that you had a million dollar racehorse that you owned and this horse won you money every time it went out. Wouldn’t you feed it the best food? Wouldn’t you get it the best coaching? Wouldn’t you? You’d have the best trainers. You would you would do a deliberate muscle routine, physical routine. Like if you had a million dollar racehorse, you would do everything to care for that racehorse. Every entrepreneur as an entrepreneur, you are the million dollar racehorse. Like you have to care for your
in that way and when you do these things you make more money. Just the word that AJ has been saying this whole time which I love is capacity. It increases your capacity and as you increase your capacity you can carry more which means you’re more productive. It doesn’t mean that stress goes away, it means that you can handle more before stress comes and so you’re able to handle the bigger levels and you get bigger results.
AJ (41:33)
When it does come, you
know how to release it faster. ⁓
RORY (41:36)
it. right. question.
AJ (41:39)
our community question of the day. This is a reminder. We do this every week and BBG members vote on the most pressing question that they want us to answer on the podcast and then all the other members upvote it and we pick the one that was most popular. So here we go today from Jason. I’m a real estate agent and I also coach agents on building their business. My weeks are completely reactive. I’m always putting out fires, jumping from call to call, and by Friday I realized I didn’t post-con…
content once, didn’t follow up with half my leads and didn’t move any of my big goals forward. I tell myself every week that next week I’ll be more intentional, but it never actually happens. What is the single change that would break this cycle for good?
RORY (42:25)
Ugh, these questions are awesome.
AJ (42:27)
These are real.
RORY (42:29)
These are from our members, right? This is from a member. ⁓ Jason and anybody who feels overwhelmed, busy, buried, and behind, here’s what I would say is the biggest difference between ultra-performers and multipliers. This comes from my second book and everybody else. Most people believe their strategy is, I will do all of the things that other people need me to do and with the time that is left over,
I will dedicate that to the things that I want to do. What multipliers do is I want you to think of a wedge. Okay, the metaphor here is a wedge. You don’t wait until you have space to do what you need to do or what you want to do. You have to wedge the things in.
that you wanna do. And it’s not just that you wanna do, it’s the things that you need to do. You multiply time by spending time on things today that give you more time tomorrow. But the whole book and framework is called the five permissions. The permission is what this is about. The emotional permission to invest time on things now that create more time tomorrow.
Absent a conscious calculation and absent a conscious permission to spend time on things that must be done, you will subconsciously, inadvertently default.
back to the constant state of interruption and urgency and just falling victim to whatever is latest and loudest. So you have to think longer term and realize that I’m not waiting until time is available to do my priorities. The definition of a priority is that it is a wedge. It’s not an empty space.
AJ (44:12)
Yeah, so I think very tactically speaking is that whatever your big goal is, whatever the most important things are to you, that has to be the first thing on Monday before you answer a phone call, check an email before you put out any fires. That’s got to be the first thing that you put your time, effort and energy to. so I think that is really schedule management. It’s priority management of making the first thing, the first thing before all the other things. the second thing I would just add to that is if you’re stuck putting out a lot of fires, then you got to ask why, why isn’t your
putting out the fires if you have a team. And one of the things that I would just say, it’s like I was victim to the mentality of taking a lot of personal pride and being the one to put out fires. And when I realized, ⁓ if they always come to me, they’ll never do it themselves. And so I really have a strict policy now with the team. It’s like, don’t bring me problems. Tell me what problems you fixed. Don’t bring me problems. You tell me what problems you fixed today. I would rather you take action and do it wrong and we’ll fix it on the back end than you coming to me and having me fix it.
So if you’re the one fixing all the fires, you gotta ask yourself, did I put myself in that position? Have I trained my team to have me be the fixer? ⁓ Or do you not have someone, right? So I think that would be the other thing I would add. And then the third quick thing that I would just say to that is this whole concept of being reactive versus proactive. That’s a choice. Lovingly, kindly, that’s a choice. And you just have to have the self-discipline to go back and wait.
It can wait, but proactive is a choice versus being reactive. And that means that you have a plan and you follow the plan back to why I start my Mondays with planning so that I don’t live in a reactive state. That doesn’t mean there’s not unexpected fires that come up I have to get involved with, but that means I have a plan of making sure the main thing is the main thing. And that takes me three hours every Monday.
RORY (46:04)
Yeah,
this
ability to prioritize is the hard work of being an ultra performer. It’s just like, you know, you have to lift weights. If you want to build muscles, you have to learn to block and protect the things that multiply time. If you want to become a multiplier, it’s not easy. It is simple, but you just got to do it. So if this episode has encouraged you and you believe it’s going to help you think about someone in your life that maybe could have a little more peace, share this episode with them and let them know there’s some tactical insights here that can hopefully help them on their
entrepreneurial journey. As always, if you want to talk to us about how our team can help you implement and execute and support your journey and applying all of these things that we teach on the show, go to freebrandcall.com forward slash podcast, freebrandcall.com forward slash podcast. We’ll see you next time on the Wealthy and Well-Known Podcast.
AJ (46:57)
y’all you gotta learn how to prioritize and right now you need to prioritize hitting that subscribe button so you can learn more stuff like this
RORY (47:06)
And if you need a physical energy release, hit the subscribe button right now. You’ll feel much
AJ (47:11)
Of course, it’s science.
WWK Ep 016: YouTube in 2026: How Smart Business Owners Turn Content Into a Business Asset
Sean (00:00)
it this way, competition is highest for low effort content.
Rory (00:04)
Say that again.
Sean (00:04)
competition is highest for low effort content or lazy content.
Rory (00:10)
Did he just
call me lazy? I’m pretty sure. Wait, can we rewind the
today we have one of the most sophisticated advanced YouTube experts in the world and one of my best friends, Sean Cannell. Back on our podcast, we haven’t had him here for a while. We’re gonna talk about why smart business owners should be investing in YouTube to create an asset that really grows their business and what smart YouTube operators are doing in 2026 to build their YouTube channel. Sean has channels with over a million subscribers.
had over 100 million views. He is a multi seven figure entrepreneur and has long been one of the OG original experts on YouTube specifically. He wrote the book YouTube secrets years ago, which has been revised and expanded. We’re glad to have him here in the studio, buddy. Welcome back. ⁓
Sean (01:07)
Rory Vaiden, fired up to be here.
Rory (01:11)
So we’re going to talk about my YouTube woes as we do about my frustrations with YouTube and why we’re not doing it right. And you’re going to fix me. You’re going to you’re going to fix us. ⁓ I want to start with the year 2026. How should business owners mission driven messengers for our community? How should we be thinking differently about YouTube in 2026 than maybe we’ve thought about YouTube in previous years?
Sean (01:40)
I think the big mindset shift is that YouTube is not just a content platform, it’s a business asset that can lift everything else that you are doing. YouTube is the town square of the internet right now, over two billion visitors every single day. Two billion?
Rory (02:04)
That’s globally. Yes, that’s like a fourth. That’s like a fourth of the planet.
Sean (02:08)
Yeah, and that’s not monthly active users. That’s daily consumption from individuals on YouTube. YouTube is the town square of the Internet. And the YouTube CEO recently came out and said that over 50 % of consumption on YouTube is happening on television screens. YouTube is the number one platform consumed in ⁓ U.S. living rooms bigger than Netflix, bigger than Peacock, bigger than Amazon Prime. So YouTube is the town square of the Internet and it’s the everything platform. People are going for sports,
for entertainment, for music, but also for business, for education. So personal brands, coaches, service providers should really be taking YouTube seriously.
Rory (02:49)
Okay, so you say it’s a town square of the internet. Tell me, I wanna talk more about that. So why do you say that? I know we’ve talked over the years since we’ve known each other about, you know, there’s this war for attention and all of these platforms and tech companies are fighting this war. And you seem to think that YouTube has like won the war?
Sean (03:10)
I think I mean if you think about the biggest players, the only platform that has more users is Facebook. Facebook is still huge. But second with users is YouTube. But YouTube is actually bigger in terms of just total distribution and consumption. Everybody’s going there. And this would include YouTube TV. But people are going there for sports. They’re going for news clips. They’re going for a summary of what’s happening in the world. It’s like the center of culture. So whether you’re watching music videos.
or commentary on culture, cultural events, whether you’re going to learn something. It’s like 75 % of people go to YouTube to solve a problem, whether they want to fix their dishwasher or they’re trying to figure out how to increase sales or master marketing or learn the latest news about AI and anything that’s happening in the world will get repurposed to YouTube. You know, if people are watching the Super Bowl, a lot of people watch it for the commercials. But what ends up happening is the
benefit extension of YouTube is the replay. can go back and watch your favorite commercials on YouTube. You can go back and consume really anything you want. It’s where collaborations are happening. Podcasts are blowing up and being distributed across platforms. Netflix has their recent play where they’re going to be getting into the podcasting game, Spotify and all of that. But YouTube’s at the top of the pyramid in terms of distribution of content, consumption of content. And so
established an influential presence on YouTube is one of the most valuable assets a business could have. Not easy to build, but if you have that kind of influence, you’re right at the center of the conversation.
Rory (04:53)
So what does that mean to
think of it as an asset? just like, you know, my YouTube channel isn’t just like, are you saying that basically, my YouTube channel isn’t just a traffic source? It’s like, basically, like intellectual property or anything else that we would build as a company that’s like a core integral part of the business? Is that the shift you’re talking about?
Sean (05:14)
Yeah. And I mean, I think if we were to go back a few decades, ⁓ a prime time spot on television, ⁓ seven or eight PM when you’re going to watch Wheel of Fortune or Jeopardy or that new spot would be the pinnacle of value. Like not only what show could get that spot, but you would have the attention of the world. There’s a lot. There was much fewer options for watching TV and consuming that content. Now, YouTube gives anybody access
to the game to actually have, you know, a show, a brand, a presence. And if you establish your subscriber base, your viewer base, and someone knows you as the go-to source for information, and by the way, in sub pockets, you know, I know you’re a genius when it comes to being able to take like just a small audience and monetize it in a big way. And so to plant your flag on YouTube with what do you want to be known for? What’s your expertise? What are you an authority on? That is
compounding influence.
Now I don’t want to over ⁓ simplify that like it’s not easy to build, but what is it worth to have a brand on YouTube like Cody Sanchez or Alex Hermosy? Those are kind of a one entrepreneur type channels. It’s absolutely prices priceless. I would think that out of all of their social platforms, YouTube is their most valuable asset. That’s why individuals like that will invest six figures or more in multiple team members ⁓ to produce content every month.
and weekly on YouTube. And so it’s a business asset. It’s growing media and out of all the media platforms, YouTube is the leader. So if you want to plant your flag in media, plant your flag in YouTube.
Rory (07:00)
Yeah,
so here’s something that you and I are super aligned on ⁓ the difference between evergreen and viral. It’s also I think the difference between making ⁓ selling something once versus doing like recurring revenue revenue or doing launches versus Yeah, doing recurring and we’ve built our whole business around evergreen, recurring revenue, and not like a launch but just a steady growing snowball. And I’m looking at where we are today as a company going I’m seeing a lot of my friends
in a frantic mode where they’ve been launching this and that kind of course. And like they, they don’t have a sustainable thing in a world of AI. And I’m going, that is a bet that we made a philosophical play that we made about evergreen. And when it comes to YouTube, you’ve always been a fan of it’s not about going viral. It’s about
Evergreen. So explain the difference there for people about what what is that philosophical shift between viral and evergreen? Why do you have that stance? And how should that shape what we’re doing tactically on our channels?
Sean (08:14)
Yeah, there was a study done about the half life of content and ⁓ it revealed that if you post something on Instagram, the half life, it depreciates over about two days that the reach of that post will probably end in two days. And that’s very similar to a Facebook feed or a TikTok feed. Whereas on YouTube, the half life was over 10 days. And that’s just for your average video. The powerful thing about YouTube though, is if you post content that
gets into the algorithm and gets into search and discovery is you can post videos that are watched for weeks months and even years to come ⁓ creators reported established YouTube creators that over half of their monthly views comes from older content
So I like to look at YouTube like a content library, whereas the other social media platforms are content feeds and you have to constantly be putting something in the feed because everyone’s scrolling past past it. A lot of other platforms, people open up their phone and they just see what comes to them. Now there’s massive opportunity on these platforms because you can get reach, you can go viral. One post could get you a lot of exposure exposure and you know, get you business. But I also think of it as the
social media hamster wheel a little bit like you’re constantly posting and
Rory (09:37)
how it feels.
mean, that’s how it feels is just like you’re just constantly just cranking out content of like, feeding this machine. And then it disappears. There’s some ways that we’ve gotten around that. Like basically, the way that we think of it now is is like our Instagram feed is just a it’s just a test environment, where we’re going to post 10 videos. And then we see which one performs and then we’re just going to put money behind the top performer. Yeah. And so that’s a way to force the
the evergreen value of that video, but it’s costing us money. The difference on YouTube is like, it’s kind of like, I think of YouTube as almost like a fine wine, right? It’s like, if you get a great video, it gets better over time and it doesn’t reach the pinnacle. It kind of spikes, comes down, but then it climbs up and then it becomes like truly a long-term asset. That’s kind of what you’re talking about.
Sean (10:30)
It is, and I think
it also is two different mindsets and one requires more patience and that’s YouTube because it could be slower in the beginning, but compounding months and years later, whereas other social platforms give you more immediate ROI. So if we’re chasing dopamine or we’re just chasing immediate business results, many entrepreneurs could feel like, I get better results on Instagram. Like today I saw that the reach of the posts or the views on the post was a few hundred views or a few thousand.
You give that immediate call to action to comment or click a link and so you go great I posted a reel and I got five leads, you know I got 50 people that were interested and maybe I posted a YouTube video and it’s like watching grass grow like the view seems slow not a lot happened But if you post a good YouTube video, that’s well crafted that’s intentionally positioned the that can become an asset where
six months later, that video is continuing to get views, get distribution to the right audience, that YouTube algorithm, the YouTube algorithm is helping you discover and get that video to. Now you go, okay, that video took some energy and I spent some time figuring out the title, the positioning, I put out some quality content, but I’m not even posting content and my older videos in my library are bringing me new business. That’s why I’m obsessed with YouTube.
most leveraged platform for entrepreneurs that use it well.
Rory (12:04)
The other thing
that you’re kind of tapping on there that I want to really double click and deep dive on is we’re big, you know, big, big fans. mean, one of the core things in this book is trust must take place before there’s a transaction. Yeah. And to go, you might get more views on Instagram, but if that’s a 60 second reel, that’s not the same. It’s not an equivalent view as somebody who watches eight minutes
minutes of a YouTube video and certainly not 60 minutes or 40 minutes of a YouTube video. walk us through that dynamic. This is another place where even though you and I kind of live in different universes that overlap, like we have a lot of philosophies that overlap. And I think this is one that I think a lot of people don’t understand about it’s like not all views are created equal a YouTube view is worth way more than an Instagram view. True or false?
Thank
Sean (13:05)
True.
I think what everybody needs to understand is Google’s 7-11-4 rule. And what that…
Rory (13:12)
Never even
heard this before.
Sean (13:14)
Yeah, so this came out a few years ago, but it matters more today than ever before. And what it revealed was that to generate a sale, to generate a conversion, you need seven hours, 11 touch points across four platforms. Seven hours, 11 touch points, four platforms. So that could be seven hours of people consuming your content, seeing you, being aware of you. 11 touch points, it could be all on YouTube or it might be watching a YouTube video. They might see an Instagram reel. They’re reading your emails. They’re engaging with you in
And for platforms could be Instagram YouTube, but it also could be email, text, any other touch point and a book.
Rory (13:55)
a speech
like in our world. It’s like the book, the speech, the email, then they’re on a webinar and then they’re in free call and then and then they’re like, Yeah, I’m in podcast.
Sean (14:00)
Yes, the fee.
So when I think about, I’m thinking about that number seven, seven hours. So how long does that take if they’re consuming just a seven second vertical video or even 30 seconds? And then the other problem is that most of the times when people are on these platforms like Instagram, they’re seeing you but they’re swiping and they see something else. They see a travel video, something humorous, they see a little bit of business content and they’re kind of in this more passive what’s interesting, maybe they follow
Whereas YouTube has an entirely different level of intent. People go to YouTube often times to learn or to lean back a little bit to click play on a video podcast but then they’re you know doing dishes or driving in their car and so they’re there to learn they’re there more serious especially for your community you know we want to learn level up.
⁓ and listen to deeper content, like a video podcast. So that’s priceless attention and you can get to seven hours much more quickly. The author of the book influence also wrote the book pre-suasion. What’s his name? Chaldini. And so.
Rory (15:14)
Right there on
the shelf. Yep.
Sean (15:19)
Yeah, imagine that it’s, you what kind of conversations and how are you demonstrating your authority, your expertise, your personality, your values before a sales conversation even takes place. So YouTube really accelerated.
Rory (15:33)
And
in a world of sales, I would think of that as just like, you know, we talked about buying lines, which is like how far on this path does someone need to go before they buy and it’s like, you to all of this content is doing that work of like, we don’t have to meet in real life because it’s pushing them along the buying line. And certainly those said that’s what the seven hours is basically. Yeah, is what you’re saying YouTube is pushing them further faster. If you get that view there and you can hold them, like you’re pushing them towards a sale faster.
Sean (16:01)
Yeah, and there was a deep study done by the software platform called one out of 10. It’s a YouTube optimization software. One out of 10 means ⁓ like your top performing video out of your last 10 uploads on YouTube. They studied 52,000 channels and they studied all these different metrics, including title length, thumbnail colors. One of the things they studied was video length. And in 2026, they found that videos outperform in terms of
in two categories. If it’s long form videos, one was between 15 and 30 minutes. That’s a good range of a video length. As soon as you cross 30, they call this the dead zone between 30 and 60. Not that that’s bad, but it’s kind of like, it’s not, you know, under 30.
Rory (16:49)
It’s
like a point of diminishing returns.
Sean (16:51)
Yeah,
under 30 is like, yeah, I could do that on my lunch break. I could, you know, catch that in between. You know, I don’t know if I have time to watch a 45 minute thing. I might have to watch that in multiple parts. And so 15 to 30 minutes was outperformed by like 12 % in views. And then the other one was ultra long. It started to rise again after an hour and at 90 minutes or even two hours video started to outperform as well. And this has been established for a long time with
kind of, you know, the Joe Rogan podcast and now diary of a CEO and all of these ultra long podcast conversations that are taking 90 minutes, two hours. And I think one of the reasons those ultra long videos are working really well on YouTube is because if someone sits down and is interested or turns it on passively, you’re just getting so much watch time that the YouTube algorithm rewards that with reach because they want time on platform. They want people dwelling on the platform. But the big idea here,
is think about how much trust can compound when someone is interested in a topic, they click on that conversation and they spend 90 minutes, two hours, two and a half hours, which people are doing, especially if that’s what they’re interested in. They wanna go deep, they wanna have an expanded conversation on that. And just one two hour episode and you’re a third of the way to your seven hours of someone really spending significant time with you.
Rory (18:16)
this this this is something I think that mission driven messengers and experts need to understand one person watching an hour long podcast or like a video podcast or or reading a book in our case that would be like four hours is worth way more than 1000 people or even 5000 people watching a 60 second reel. Yep. And I think that’s what
Sean (18:35)
Yeah.
Rory (18:46)
people don’t understand they’re chasing the like the vanity of I want 5000 views. And they’re trading that for not understanding that one person who goes deep with me is more valuable. And that’s what you know, when you say we’re geniuses at making money from a small audience. It’s because it’s exactly that it’s like we have a very specific audience. But man, if they’re an expert of any like a speaker author coach,
they get into our universe and they just go, my gosh, we are there are people. And so we build a lot of trust quickly, but we don’t reach millions and millions and millions of people. And I think that’s the big mental switch that a lot of expert specific creators need to really think about and understand. So
Sean (19:33)
Agree.
Rory (19:35)
Now let me complain about YouTube. so so here’s the thing that people always said, just be consistent. Just be consistent. Just keep pushing. You you say just push record, just push record, right? And I’m a huge, huge fan of it. We’ve been pushing record. And we’ve been publishing every week on YouTube for seven years. We’ve got 9000 subscribers. Now I’ll be the first to admit we’ve not we’ve not prioritized it as the most important thing in our business. It’s
pretty, it’s been pretty low on the list. So there’s no doubt that that is, you know, your results reflect your effort to some extent. But at the same time, I’m going, we’ve been putting videos up for seven years. We’ve never had one pop off ever on YouTube, with the exception of my TED talk, which went, you know, massively viral, but that was on their channel, not on our channel. Right? ⁓
Now, I’ve had massive success being on podcasts like yours and like Ed Myled and Lewis and other Cody Sanchez, these other shows that I’ve been on. I was on Cody Sanchez podcast. She’s a client of ours. And so I think it was like a year ago, we were on a show. We had like four sales last week from her.
from a video that was published a year ago to what you’re saying. So I’ve had lots of success with them. So clearly they’re doing things that we’re not doing right. But the idea that you can just keep, you know, just keep going, just keep consistent.
it kind of at least feels to me in a discouraging way like that’s not really the truth. And in some ways you go, well, we still have 9000 subscribers. I mean, that’s not nothing. But it’s not, you know, when I look at the return on investment for the time that we have put in, and it’s hard to measure because it’s like, well, how many of our sales have come from people who, you know, of those 9000 who sat and watched several hours of video? I don’t know, like it’s a little bit tough. But so anyways, what do you say to some
somebody who’s like has been publishing and has been doing it is not not getting the not seeing the results yet.
Sean (21:43)
Yeah, well, I think, especially in 2026, we have to face the brutal reality of success on YouTube, and it’s this. 20 million videos are uploaded to YouTube every single day.
Rory (21:56)
20 million a day, but there’s 2 billion people every day going there. Yeah. But of course, Mr. Beast takes like half of that.
Sean (22:04)
And
so when I hear 20 million videos uploaded every single day, that’s a big pool to try to crack through the noise and stand out. I think the key though is you just got to get into the top 10 % of content.
You know, I heard an old Brian Tracy, the sales legend and you know, leadership ⁓ quote that said, you know, if you’re in the top 10 % of salespeople, you’ll get 80 % of the results. And if you’re in the top 2%, you’ll get, ⁓ you know, disproportionate returns. So put it this way, competition is highest for low effort content.
Rory (22:42)
Say that again.
Sean (22:43)
competition is highest for low effort content or lazy content. Now, I’m not saying that anybody who’s putting effort towards YouTube is being lazy, but those that are rising.
Rory (22:55)
Did he just
call me lazy? I’m pretty sure. Wait, can we rewind the tape? Did you just call me lazy?
Sean (23:01)
⁓
If you compare your average entrepreneur that’s posting on YouTube to those at an elite level, your average entrepreneur is maybe thinking about sitting down to have a podcast, maybe not doing a ton of preparation. They haven’t planned a real strong angle or title at the beginning. The thumbnail is maybe just a little bit of outdated. It’s a little outdated. It’s not really best practice. Those micro details aren’t really thought about. The hook, the opening, the first not
just three seconds, but what are the first 30 seconds? What is the entire opening of the video? How’s the video structured is, ⁓ has the content been edited at all to trim the fluff? Your average entrepreneur is not doing any of that, anything like that. They might just be, you know, they’re experts. They’ve got good content, but they are also maybe invested. very busy. So they spend, if any prep time, they spend five minutes thinking about, well, what’s the title? How am I going to position this?
Well, what are the elite doing? The elite are sitting down and they’re spending 10x more time on video packaging. So if you’re average entrepreneur
Rory (24:10)
Another word for that could be planning.
Sean (24:12)
planning, but they’re sitting down and your average entrepreneur didn’t even think about the title ahead of time, you know, isn’t putting a lot of energy in the thumbnail and then then into the topic itself. But the elite are sitting down and saying, okay, what actual topics are hot right now? What are the highest pain points that my audience has and how could I position that? What are even some of the best practices that are happening? One of the main practices of
elite YouTube creators is studying outliers.
is looking at channels in your niche and in your topic or even just adjacent. It doesn’t have to even be setting other business creators. You’re looking at formats. For example, one of the formats that is known to go really viral is I tried Andrew Huberman’s morning routine for 30 days. I tried X for a week. I tried Facebook ads. I tried chat GPT ads because they’re adding an ad product that you can now do pay
advertising inside of chat gbt. ⁓ I tried chat gbt advertising for seven days. Parenthesis shocking results. So now now we’re at a strategic topic level maybe tapping into the now with chat gbt. You’re still tapping into a paid ads thing you maybe want to attract others in terms of marketing. That’s topic research. Then you’re thinking about video formats you’re thinking about the title and then that that right there is going to inform the structure of the content and how it’s
Positioned and it’s gonna take more energy to where you maybe came up with that concept You didn’t just sit down and record a podcast and riff on something you Reverse engineered the idea and then did an experiment for seven days and then turn that experiment into a video and then that video got 55,000 views a hundred and sixty seven thousand views Which would eclipse the entire view count of a lot of people’s channels that start on YouTube because they spent that much more time
on the topic, the title, the thumbnail, essentially the concept, the energy invested in the content itself. Now, here’s the thing, listening to that, many people might count themselves out and say, well, I mean, yeah, I don’t have time to do that kind of work or effort on YouTube.
Rory (26:34)
particularly
when you say that inside of the same breath as saying YouTubers a long term play. It’s a long term asset. It’s not something that you put you do. You sit down today, you do this for a thumbnail and tomorrow a bunch of money shows up. That to me, that’s the conflict of like the entrepreneurs going, you know, the analogy we always use as we say, you’re it’s like you’re being chased by a bear to create revenue. Like you have to just it’s like I have to have enough revenue to pay the people and like keep keep the lights on around here. So
So I have to balance, I have to balance planting seeds while being chased by a bear. YouTube to me feels more like seeds that you’re planting that will one day grow up and be, you know, provide a layer of protection from the bear. like right now it’s just a seed and I’m like running around being chased by the bear. So how do you afford the time and the money to do that?
Sean (27:30)
I mean, think there’s entrepreneurship always comes down to ⁓ one of two things. You either have time or you have money. Like when you’re just starting out, you might not have money, but you also, you’re a lot more lean, lower overhead. So what can you invest in it? Sweat equity. So you invest time in YouTube to say, okay, I maybe I still have my core business. Maybe I’m on sales calls all day and I have fulfillment, but if I want to invest in this long-term play, I’m building up my YouTube channel with sweat equity. But a lot of individuals listening to this,
they have money. So the mindset shift would be, ⁓ I heard Dan Sullivan say something once that if you have money and you have a problem, you don’t have a problem. And so it’s making the decision.
Rory (28:14)
You have
enough money to solve a problem, you don’t have a problem.
Sean (28:17)
You don’t have a problem.
So so then you know, you’re asking yourself who and not how I want to invest in YouTube who which would be a strategic hire or working with an agency or an individual that you could bolt onto your business to help you do the heavy lifting of YouTube invest those dollars and They could sit down. They’re doing that packaging for you. They’re working
Rory (28:42)
with
title, topic, thumbnail.
Sean (28:44)
Yeah, they’d mind your genius mind your topics. They’re aware of the broader YouTube culture. They’re aware of the research tools you work with them. They’re helping you do all of the above and still allowing you to sit down and just do your genius. But they’re maybe going to restructure things outline, you know, I’d even say scripting, you know, the greatest YouTube videos again are spending just a lot more time period and planning that out and scripting or outlining the content. Again, that sounds like a lot of work, but if anything,
could just be structure like okay talk to me you know deliver what’s what’s some of your core genius what are your core frameworks what are some of you okay we’re do this here’s how we want to outline this let’s work on the hook of the video let’s think about how this thing is gonna be structured
Rory (29:28)
Which
by the way, just to like…
go meta on people, you and I did this, like you’re I’m going to be on your show right after this. And you were like, Okay, what’s what’s what’s the what’s the title of this episode going to be? Yeah, it was actually it was it was kind of like, what’s the topic? Like, what’s a meaty topic we could do? And then it was, okay, what sexy title? Could we come up with that you can see on a thumbnail? And then it’s like, okay, then how do we open this? How how do we open it, you know, with the hook? And then what’s the talking
points that we’re going to go through. So you’re actually practicing what you.
Sean (30:03)
And that would be, mean us working together for these episodes we’re gonna shoot together was about a 30 minute conversation. A 30 minute conversation with somebody that has that expertise. And that would be tapping into the famous who not how framework. Like who could you work with? And you know for listeners they could jump right in and if they just started talking to chat GBT a little bit ⁓ on a basic level, that’s gonna get you a lot further than you would normally. Like okay here’s what I wanna talk about, thing one. So here’s some of the stuff I normally teach, here’s what I
talk about your I’m assuming open up chat GBT you know start doing a voice prompt talking to you a little bit about it but then you could follow up with these prompts okay what how could I package or position this and here is one of the most powerful YouTube principles that most don’t understand that you want to ask yourself how can I go more broad appeal how can I raise
That doesn’t mean diluting the topic too much, but you want to raise the broad appeal as high as possible. So we’re going to do this episode on the answer was copywriting. The thing you wanted to teach was like copywriting structure for sales. We’re having this conversation on the phone. go, that’s amazing. But a title like, you know, use this copywriting framework to make your next video more powerful, horrible title. Super.
Rory (31:26)
narrow
because people go I’m not a copywriter, this video doesn’t apply to me even though we go no these principles apply to anyone trying to generate revenue. So we have to take the topic and we have to round it out to have a broader appeal.
Sean (31:38)
We
raise it up to go, yeah, how can I go more broad appeal? Now, if we take a principle from the most viral YouTubers, the question they ask is how can this topic in video apply to at least 80 % of the population? That’s really broad. Now, I don’t suggest business owners typically do that, but it’s a really good principle to understand.
Rory (32:05)
It’s like a workout
to do like a way to exercise your brain in that direction.
Sean (32:09)
To
push it up broad appeal. So if you were to make a video just for ⁓ women, now you’re 50 % of the population. But now you’re saying, okay, how do I go higher than that? That’s why the most broad topics that could be like relationships or food or something, everybody eats food.
Rory (32:25)
always
it’s it’s money, sex, politics, religion, food, relation. mean, those are those are every major podcast or show. It’s like those are they’re hitting on those because they’re the most universal topic.
Sean (32:39)
Yeah, so push it up. Now, if we then get into your niche, you’re still asking how can I go up a little bit to the known felt needs and pain points and ambitions of my target audience?
Rory (32:50)
because when we do
this, we’re risking violating what we were talking about earlier, which is we’re going for viral. But now we’re risking not building as deep of trust, we’re going for width. And we’re comp, it’s like a balance between width and depth. And we have to, we, we kind of want to have more width in the title and the topic. But then once you get into the content, that’s where you kind of go a little bit deeper and speak. If you’re an expert,
Sean (32:56)
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
Yeah, to your audience. a
principle in communication I learned was, you know, you want to answer the questions people are asking. What question are people asking? Like, and then what question should they ask? Or so in this case, the answer was copywriting and a sales framework.
Rory (33:40)
what they should
be asking. That’s what they are asking. They don’t know that’s what they need. They think they need something else.
Sean (33:46)
And so where I pushed it up would be, ⁓ you know, one of the titles I think that we ultimately came up with was essentially money. How can we raise it up to money? Like, ⁓ you know, this framework will make you more money on YouTube or use this framework and then push it up even more like. ⁓
Rory (34:06)
Like the best video that we’ve done together of me on your show was ⁓ it’s all about the title was like something like how to how small creators are making millions of dollars.
Sean (34:15)
So the copywriting video we’re gonna shoot together, the title I came up with was The Psychology Behind Why Some Videos Make Money. And so, an alternative would be why some videos make money and others don’t, or the difference between videos that make money and those that never will.
Rory (34:32)
There
it is. But basically you’re going the answer is copywriting. But but the question we should be asking is how do we state the question that more people pay attention to? Which then becomes the title.
Sean (34:43)
And then what’s fascinating, which is the time. Yeah,
if you were to put even like sales professionals or really call out a niche in a title and there’s a time and place to do that, I’m not suggesting those should never be uploads, but. ⁓
anyone that’s interested in YouTube, even so this is for our podcast where we want to talk to the creator or DIY creator as well as the business owner. But if we actually put the word business in the title, it will kill the click through rate because somebody will opt out of clicking on the video because ⁓ I’m not a business owner. I don’t know if I resonate with that as much, but everybody has got money problems where they want to learn about money and they want more views or more money. we’re pushing it up. But if I’m, then you have to ask yourself, okay, it’s my target audience.
that do business owners want to know the psychology behind why some videos make money and others don’t and do creators want to know that is what they both do. So you actually have the opportunity to get more reach, but also reach your target audience at the same time. So that’s the tension to manage is how do I raise the broad appeal, still make it a sharp title with fierce clarity and ⁓
And then in the video itself, articulate. So I will articulate in that video, like, listen, if you’re actually a YouTuber that wants to earn more and really go to a mastery level on YouTube, you’re going to love this conversation. And this is also great for business owners that want to generate leads and sales. We start broad appeal, kind of qualify in there. And then that’s the difference between a video that could get 22,000 views or 200,000 views or one that stays stuck at 2000 views because of this whole packaging.
conversation.
Rory (36:24)
Yeah, so by the way, on that this is a good spot to mention. So ⁓ on some of those tactics, we’ve got ⁓ if you go to free brand training.com slash YouTube, people can watch a class from you that’s a little more into like the weeds of the tactics on this right.
Yeah, so ⁓ go check out freebrandtraining.com forward slash YouTube if you want, you know, to get more into the tactics here. so basically, high level though, we’re talking about topic, title, thumbnail. Those are the main and I think part of what part of the big insight that I’m having is going it’s not
Sean (36:55)
Yes.
Rory (37:07)
as much about the quality of the content today. It’s more about the attraction of the wrapper of like the positioning. that’s where the over indexing work comes from spending time thinking about
It’s the same candy bar. It’s got to be a quality candy bar, but we have to spend more time on the wrapper than the candy bar itself. That’s where the over indexing result comes from today on YouTube.
Sean (37:39)
think that’s one. And then I think the other thing to consider is, you know, YouTube is two things. The most viral videos to have viral videos on YouTube. You want to understand two big things. YouTube is psychology and trends at the highest level. It’s human psychology and trends.
What’s going on in the minds of people? What are they thinking about? What are they worried about? And also what’s trending? There’s a reason why AI content or AI in the title is getting so many views right now on YouTube because everyone’s worried about it. It’s the trend. Everybody’s thinking about it and it also applies to everything. So if it’s coming into our daily life, should we be adopting this in our, ⁓
service provider business. How could we be adopting it? You could say the dark side of AI that will get a lot of views. How to make extra money that will get a lot of views. ⁓ It’s replacing employees and you’re also hitting hot buttons. It’s replacing people. Should it be now debates happening in the common?
Rory (38:38)
⁓
You have emotion and you have trending topic that AI is hitting on those two things and that’s a thing. This reminds me of a great lesson that I learned from Tom Hanks. He’s not a friend of mine, but I heard him say this. He actually said this to a friend of mine and he said, the key to writing a movie that’s a hit is you have to enter into the nation’s conscience.
So all you have to do is ask yourself, what is the nation thinking about talking about? And basically, that’s like the hot that’s like the highway. And then you have to ask yourself, how does my topic come in and just catch that sort of catch that wave? And that’s exactly what you’re talking about in terms of how do you succeed in YouTube in 2026?
Sean (39:26)
Yeah. So anybody watching this right now could take the phone mount that’s on their car dashboard, put their phone up there where normally they’re viewing their GPS, turn it horizontal at themself, turn the camera on and sit in your car, which is a great audio booth by the way. And maybe, you know, somebody’s late for a meeting or something. You got 20 minutes. And if you sit down and you think about what’s happening in the national ⁓ consciousness, what are people thinking about, worried about, and you have some stuff to riff on. Maybe you plan your ideas out a little bit.
of planning, like one of our 3P frameworks is plan, ⁓ press record and then post. That’s the most simple thing. Plan first, press record and then post. So I might plan on a legal pad or my tablet if I was sitting in my car and be like,
Man, the phone calls I’ve been getting, the conversation, people, they’re worried about AI, they’re worried about it disrupting jobs. I have a few thoughts. I’ve heard a couple things that have been happening. Okay, how could I talk about that? You’re planning a little bit. Then just press record and say, okay, you might be thinking about this, this is a conversation we’ve been having. And then you post that video and with no editing and just sitting in your car.
and just sharing from the heart and maybe sharing some of your wisdom, your perspective, your thoughts. In some cases, probably why you’re not.
Rory (40:43)
while you’re ⁓
Sean (40:47)
while we’re parked
and, we’ve all seen this. We’ve seen basic low production talking head videos on YouTube that get 55,000 views or 500,000 views. And what become, what’s the, you know, difference between that video and a video that’s in a fancy podcast studio with all kinds of cameras and all kinds of production and people get frustrated because sometimes they sit down. They got, I got the fancy studio, but I’m not getting the views that missing element right there can be the timing, the topic and tapping into
trends and what sometimes a mental barrier to that for business owners is like, well, I don’t want to just cover trending videos. Like is that trending, you know, tick tock?
Rory (41:27)
Well, so
I was gonna I want to ask you about this. I need you to coach me on the limiting belief that I have I know I’m aware that I have this and I have a hard time letting go of it because I actually struggle with this is I don’t want to be the pandering
vanity seeking person and and this is why this is one reason I never post when people die. I have a emotional struggle where you know, it’s like Kobe Bryant just died and everyone and it’s like I know that’s gonna get tons of views. I know that’s gonna get tons of engagement. I feel like it’s cheap.
and inauthentic, even if it is authentic. It’s like, even if you were the biggest Kobe Bryant fan in the world, right? And so it’s like, every time a celebrity dies, people post about it. And I’m like, is that’s what I think of when I think of?
the trend AI is that way right now we’re using AI in our business I guarantee we are implementing AI more than almost every person on YouTube is talking about it. We’ve built 40 bots for our community like you’re talking about the topics we have bots that just analyze the and it just gives it to them and all of their brand memory is stored if they’re using our bots you don’t have to give the context it already has all of your context it knows your model and who you’re going after. So we have bots that do that but I have this problem with going
yeah, I’m just gonna go on every day and be like, here’s what happened in the world of AI for personal brands. I know that would perform. I struggle doing it because I don’t know, I guess I just have like a distaste for like the amateurness of it. And yet I also am frustrated with going, all of these people are willing to do it and they’re just riding the wave and they’re just and they’re taking off. It’s why I got out of ⁓ traditional radio. I used to be on traditional radio and that’s all they wanted to talk about. Here’s the top news.
topics today. And I’m like, why are we talking about this? Because everyone’s talking about it. I’m like, I don’t care about any of this stuff. It’s actually why I got into podcasting because I was like, I want to talk about more meaningful things. So anyways, coach me through that. How do I reconcile that?
Sean (43:39)
To me it sounds like you just coached yourself. I think that that limiting belief, you’re self-aware enough to understand that. I mean, all I could add to it is a mission-driven messenger.
without compromising ethics is willing to do anything to reach as many people as possible. It’s like the apostle Paul said, I’ll become all things to all people in order that I might win some for Christ. So it’s a willingness to say what’s going to be most effective. And then it’s also a letting go of any fear of other people’s opinions or any ⁓ fear of judgment and fear of somebody calling you authentic. Only you would know the truth to that. But what I can say in the seat of the conversation,
we had before you turn on the podcast. I think you do care about AI. If we isolate around AI, you do care about AI. You are doing it. It couldn’t be more authentic. It’s actually probably more important that people hear your voice on the matter than many people who are just chasing trends at a shallow level. So if you resolve any kind of internal cognitive dissonance or whatnot, and maybe realize like it’s re embracing the principle, because I think the principle of what you did on radio is pretty important. That is what gets the most views.
on YouTube. So a willingness to do what it takes. then if you have ethical lines, you’re like, I’m not I’m not going to do that because I don’t feel that that’s not authentic to me. But when it is authentic, I think you have to press past any resistance you have because you go, no, I do care about that. I’m not going to post about every person when they pass away. But I really care about this. I have something to say in this moment. You know, when Charlie Kirk was assassinated, ⁓ I don’t talk about a lot of stuff, but I ended up doing an Instagram
post about it and ended up getting 1.7 million views.
By the way, could put somebody could sit here and you were just trying to get views. No, I wasn’t. I actually had some I didn’t post immediately. I think I posted two days later, three days later. I’ve been processing it. It was very heavy. I’ve been thinking I’ve been listening to all the conversation. also realized, man, you know, this could be very polarizing. I don’t usually get political, but I felt it. That’s why I posted it. I felt it. I processed it. And then I ended up doing an Instagram carousel. I lost 3000 followers.
when I did the post, I ended up gaining 7000 followers when I did the post and it wasn’t about that. Now I’m also a good marketer so I understand what could happen but I also I didn’t know that that would happen and I actually thought that it might be more of if you will a net negative but here’s the thing above all of that was conviction above all of that was authentic conviction.
feeling like I had something to actually say and I don’t jump on most things. And some people said, well, if you’re gonna post about this, also, if you’re gonna talk about this, you have to talk about this other stuff too. People are always gonna bring you your judgment. Again, if we’re reverse engineering back from what does it take to actually get views and reach and have impact on YouTube, I think you have to be willing to do what it takes. Is. Yeah.
Rory (46:42)
And you’re saying trends
essential. It’s one of the essential ingredients to performing on YouTube.
Sean (46:49)
And most things are not problems to be solved, they’re tensions to be managed.
So it’s like, think trying to have a binary answer to that question, like I’m just not going to do trends because it could be, you know, misperceived or I personally don’t love it. That would be more of like black and white thinking as opposed to tensions to be managed. Am I just jumping on this? And then I think willing to be mistakes, willing to make mistakes, willing to try something, willing to, ⁓ you know, one week be doing it and you might look back and, and I think we have to get over that.
here.
Maybe criticism comes your way after you do jump on a trend and talk about something. They’re like, you know, Rory, I know you, I don’t think that post hit and you’re my, you know, I didn’t feel authentic. felt like you’re like, as I reflect, maybe that’s true. That’s a willingness to take a risk and willingness to, put yourself out there. But I know your community too is very purpose-driven, you know, ethics driven. So those, these are like internal frameworks to be processing what to post next. But I know we’re isolating on AI and I’m not saying AI is the only choice.
trend. No, just talk. But it’s a good case study. Yeah. Because literally the conversation we had before we pressed record was fascinating to me about what you guys are doing, how you’re doing it. And what again, what we know is that AI is trending. The avoidance of talking about something you’re authentically doing, you’re doing at a world class level that could help people, I think is a mistake. I think. And then realizing that with in the sea of sameness, whether it’s not that you can’t do like evergreen topics or old
school titles, how to get leads in your business using Facebook. There there’s just been so much of that. And that’s to step into a world of YouTube where you get views today. I think you have to be willing to talk about the now. Neil Patel, the, you know, entrepreneur and SEO expert, like really good at SEO. Smart.
Rory (48:49)
We’ve had him on the show. He’s so good. Super.
Sean (48:52)
And he made a quote, which a lot of good communicators will sometimes speak in absolutes, even though the absolute isn’t always true. But he made the absolute statement that the only thing working on social media right now is new. The only thing working on social media right now, including YouTube, is new. The good news about why YouTube will never be saturated, it’ll never be crowded, neither were social media is because new things are always happening.
We coach a lot of real estate agents and they’re like, but there’s so many other agents. Like there’s just so much competition. So other people doing it. Well, number one, not really a national association of realtors say that only 9 % of agents are posting listing videos. So it’s not as much as you think. But I think number two is there’s always something new happen happening. Rates are always changing. New home buyer incentives are always happening. ⁓ politicians are always switching. There’s always.
Rory (49:51)
Even though news stands for notable events weather and sports as you know that that’s where news comes from But really the way I think of news is it’s it’s new. It’s what’s new and I think you know, I think of it as there’s better There’s different and there’s new yeah and right right now and I think always it’s like new actually outperforms new outperforms better Mm-hmm, which is frustrating, but I think that is how it is but if you can
Sean (49:55)
That’s
Rory (50:20)
connect your better take on what is new. You know, it’s selling people what they want, giving them what they need. It’s what the apostle Paul said. I mean, it’s our five title tests of like, you know, the I want blank test. It’s part of just the tension, I think, to be managed.
Sean (50:38)
I think we’re hitting on something that’s so powerful in this conversation, and that’s this. I actually think it’s lot of the limiting beliefs and internal frameworks that hold most back.
Rory (50:47)
Amen.
Sean (50:48)
because
the fear of just sitting in your car and hitting record to talk about today, what is new is why 99 out of a hundred professionals, they just don’t do it. Oh, they kind of overthink it. need to prepare more. need to. So you hesitate when actually content that’s planned out a little bit, press record and then publish that thing is on a new topic with a title that jumps into the conversation has a
chance from taking your obscure channel that just has never gotten any reached. All of a sudden you got 55,000 views and you’re now getting awareness. I never knew about you before. I never discovered you before. What’s fascinating is I’m not saying that has to be a hundred percent of your content, but we’re asking how do you even jump into the conversation or get discovered in the first place? And then people start to explore your library and start to see the depth of your content. So the internal beliefs of, you know,
Rory (51:44)
Otherwise
you’re the world’s best kept secret, which is like a huge part of our audience of just like, because just you have amazing stuff. Nobody knows you’re there.
Sean (51:54)
Yes.
And so why do we sit in the car? Oh, well, I don’t know if I’m ready to talk about this or I might get a little bit pushback, a little bit of pushback. Or is this too political or will? And, I don’t know if I should talk about AI because some people are going to say, but what about the water consumption and what about if the machines, you know, kill us later? And there’s a million excuses. Am I ready to talk about this? What if I stumble over my words? Well, you know, there’s a million what ifs and those are those internal beliefs. And, you know, well, am I just jumping on a trend? Somebody else already did it.
a million reasons and so what ends up happening analysis paralysis and then we don’t press record so I think having a conviction based approach and having hopefully this conversation being beneficial to individuals like you know punching fear in the face and then pressing record
Rory (52:43)
Yeah, yeah, well, there you go, friends. Sean Cannell, brilliant, profound, inspiring.
Go to freebrandtraining.com forward slash YouTube, check out his free training if you wanna dive deeper on the tactics of YouTube. ⁓ I love this conversation. I do believe that all of this is a huge asset that automates trust at scale, right? That’s what we’re trying to do is automate trust at scale. There may be no better tool on the planet than YouTube. It’s certainly one of the top ones. It’s a systematic, there’s a system you can follow to make this happen. So make sure you do that. Share this episode with somebody who you know
should be crushing it on YouTube and who wants to do better on YouTube, rate this podcast if you haven’t, we would love to hear your comments and come back next time. We’ll catch you on the wealthy and well-known podcast.