WWK Ep 018: Quit Now! If You Won’t Invest in Your Dream…
speaker-1 (00:00)
I’m sorry, but if you can’t come up with a few thousand dollars to invest in your dream, then quit your dream now. Because if you’re not spending that money and time with us, then what are you spending it on? And I go, if you’re not doing it, like you’re not gonna make it.
speaker-0 (00:20)
I want to say something to a very specific type of person who is listening to this episode today. You know you’re capable. You know that there’s a calling on your life. You know you have the experience and the expertise to make a real difference in lives of people that need.
to need to hear from you and only the way that you can share. But somewhere along the lines, you’ve begun to drift. You’ve begun to not believe in yourself. You’ve begun to give up on your dream. You’ve begun to stop doing things that you used to do. And really what’s happening is you’ve begun to give up on yourself and the dream and the calling that you have on your life. And I don’t believe that it’s an accident that you’re listening to this episode today. This episode is
for you, the person who has begun to drift to fall away from the calling on your life and hopefully today is a call back to that calling so that you can get back on with your dream. So Rory, this is a unique episode of really a wake-up call to the person who is giving up on the calling, on their audience, on themselves, up on their dream. And so I’d love to just start with you as like, what do you think
that person needs to hear today to be reinvigorated to get back to the work that they used to find with vigor and passion and excitement that now just feels pointless and exhausting.
speaker-1 (01:50)
Yes. I mean, if you had a dream, and you’re feeling discouraged, the first thing that I want you to know is that you’re normal. It doesn’t mean there’s something wrong with you. I think there is a mental part of this of like, we need a motivational kick in the pants. And then there is a psychological part of understanding how the human brain works. And I hope we talk about both of those things today. And I want to start
with the psychological part in terms of why you’re normal. The human brain is not designed for success. The human brain is designed for survival. And there’s a big difference between success and survival. To survive means to stay safe. To survive means to conserve energy. To survive and stay alive means to do what is not risky, to do things that are predictable.
Everything about survival is about safety. What does it mean to be successful? Almost exactly the opposite.
Success is about doing things that make you uncomfortable. Success is about doing new things. Success is about taking chances. Success is about doing things you’ve never done before. And so if you’re feeling discouraged, it doesn’t mean there’s something wrong with you. It doesn’t mean that God doesn’t have it, you know, in your destiny to be successful. It doesn’t mean that your calling isn’t important. It doesn’t mean that you’re not qualified. It means that you have a perfectly functioning
healthy, normal human brain, but that that normal human brain is pulling you to safety and security and comfort and predictable. And you’re just experiencing the tension between
the way that your brain is designed first and foremost to keep you alive and you becoming the person you need to be, which is somebody that is comfortable being uncomfortable, somebody who is willing to do things that other people don’t do, someone who is willing to do things that you don’t like doing or don’t feel like doing just because they’re new things. So you’re in the middle of an important journey. You’re not backwards. You’re not behind.
You’re right where you’re supposed to be, but you are at a point where you got to decide, you going to turn back to the way you’ve always done things, or are going to follow the calling and keep going forward? And I think today’s episode is about helping make sure you keep going forward.
speaker-0 (04:25)
Alright, so I have a personal question for you. Yeah, I don’t think I know the answer to this.
speaker-1 (04:27)
personal question.
It’s like date night. On
date night we try to ask questions to each other that we don’t know the answer
speaker-0 (04:36)
Is there something that you have given up on in your life that you truly quit that you look back now and you really regret?
speaker-1 (04:45)
Wow, yeah, that’s a deep one, babe. Say it again.
speaker-0 (04:50)
⁓ Is there
something in your life that you truly gave up on that you quit that looking back now you really regret that you didn’t see it through?
speaker-1 (04:58)
No, ⁓ there’s not. And I know that’s not the like empathetic answer and like, but it’s there is not. There’s some like crazy dreams that I have, know, like, ⁓ you know, I’ve always had a dream of like a TV show for speakers like ⁓
speaker-0 (04:59)
Wow.
No, but
I mean something that you actually-
speaker-1 (05:17)
Yeah, like something
real. mean, the closest thing would be not winning the world championship of public speaking. You know, that was something I really, really wanted. And I came in second in the world. And, you know, it’s like, you know, I could have gone back and do it, but I realized it really wasn’t about the title. It was about the person who became the process. So
speaker-0 (05:38)
Do you regret
going back a third time? do you wish that like hindsight 2020? It’s like, no, I wish I would have gone back and tried for.
speaker-1 (05:46)
first.
don’t. don’t. And I think that’s actually an important part of the conversation of this is to go my life, you know, early on, it was like trying to achieve destinations.
And it was really about like, want to conquer this thing. And I think as I’ve studied success more and tried to adapt it in my own life, I really embraced the idea that it’s like, it’s actually not about the destination. It’s about who I’m becoming in the process. ⁓ You know, as the famous philosopher Miley Cyrus once said, it’s all about the climb. ⁓ And so I think that’s relevant.
It’s not that I haven’t failed. mean, that would be an example. I guess you technically could say I failed to reach that goal. But what didn’t fail was my ultimate destination was I wanted to become one of the best speakers in the world. didn’t it wasn’t the world championship that was the finish line. It was inspiring people and changing them and setting that up. And in many ways, I we’ve been able to do that. And there’s still another level to that that I’m still pursuing. But there’s not a finish line to that. And so I think a part of
what you have to do is you have to learn to fall in love with the daily grind. have to fall in love with the idea that
I’m going to experience losses along the way or what people would call losses. I didn’t get that. I wanted to have a number one New York Times bestseller. We’ve hit the New York Times twice now, neither time number one. I would have loved to do that, but it’s like, ⁓ it wasn’t really about, that’s not what writing a book is about. It’s not about the number one New York Times bestseller. It’s about writing a book that changes the world, forwards our business, codifies what we believe in, and those things are all
available and more meaningful. And so I think sometimes people get discouraged because like they didn’t get the result. you know, we did a big launch recently and it was like, I would have loved to have a better result. But we had effective progress. And so I think that is a psychological switch that people need to flip in their brain to go,
Yes, I’m moving towards results, but what I’m really interested is strengthening my character, creating better processes, enforcing consistency, knowing that even though I didn’t get on paper the W, the win that I wanted in the way I got the win, the long term is the game that I’m playing and I’m on track for that as long as I don’t quit. So I haven’t ever quit something that
like I was in the middle of just because it was hard or just because it wasn’t going the way I wanted. I can’t honestly say that I have. I’ve gotten close to quitting.
speaker-0 (08:48)
What number did take the stairs? Do you think that’s a coincidence?
speaker-1 (08:50)
Number two, New York Times.
I’ve thought about this a lot. So I got number two, world champion of public speaking, number two for Take the Stairs. There was a college, ⁓ you know, in college there was an award called the Student Excellence Award that I won at one time. I was the runner up for that. I did end up winning that two years later. But ⁓ it’s possible that there’s a coincidence to it because I think part of how I view this is anytime I don’t
get what I want. I view that as both a question of my own motives, of like, did I really want to help people or did I really want something for me? And the other thing I use it as a question of is a question of faith, of do I trust God because God sent me in a direction but it didn’t actually come true.
like in the way I thought it was going to come true, in the way I wanted it to come true. ⁓ And so, I think that’s a test of faith is to go, will you continue going forward? Will you continue to trust me even though what you’re experiencing right now in this moment is not the way you would have drawn it up? To me, that’s the very essence of faith.
speaker-0 (09:51)
and the way you.
Yeah. And I share that because I’ve often thought about that, you know, too, of, know, the way we want success often looks different than the way that God sees success. And for the person who’s, you know, on the verge of giving up or quitting, how much of that really does come down to is I just didn’t think it would look like this. I thought it would be different than this. I thought it would be easier than this, or I thought this would have happened. And because our own expectations, which were founded in nothing really,
other than what we wanted, aren’t met in the exact way that we wanted.
speaker-1 (10:47)
That’s, mean, look, the difference between gratitude and frustration can be explained simply with frustrations, right? If my expectation level is here and what I’m experiencing is above that, I experience gratitude. If my expectation level is here and what I’m experiencing is below that, I experience frustration. The only difference is where is the expectation, right? And so, I think when people place expectations on God, on themselves, on other people,
speaker-0 (11:14)
success, marriage,
speaker-1 (11:15)
where you think
you’re supposed to be at this age, where you think you’re supposed to be, you know, at this many years in the business, you’re setting an expectation level, again, basically based on nothing or typically on comparison, which is even worse. And, and that’s where your emotions are coming from, is this baseless set of expectations. Now, I try to hold myself to high standards.
But I have low expectations, right? It’s like I’m sort of pleasantly surprised with whatever result we do get even if it’s beneath and that’s a concept. Everything we’re talking about here, by the way, is inside of the Take the Stairs book, right? This is like what I built my career on because that’s what I built my life on. And there’s a section in Take the Stairs, which is my first book for those of that don’t know, where I talk about
Successful people put their self-esteem in their work habits, not in their results. And it’s one of the most defining characteristics because even if you’re a top performer,
If you experience low self-esteem because you didn’t get the result you wanted, then you’re going to quit at some point. But if you’re a low performer who just goes, I’m just focusing on my work ethic, I’m controlling what I can control, I’m getting better, then over the long haul, it’s going to work out. And, you know, I don’t mean to over-spiritualize it, but you know this. My life verse is Hebrews 12-11, which says that,
of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it. And I’ve put my faith in that verse my whole life to say, what feeling good right now is not an essential criteria or measurement or determinant of my success. It’s actually completely irrelevant to my success because God’s Word tells me, common sense tells you,
Ultra-performers will corroborate, as will data, that in the long term, if you do the fundamentals, that ultimately you will reap a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it. And I look back on my life and go, man, lots of seasons have been hard, but I look at where I am and I go, well, I don’t know how else to describe what I’m experiencing other than a harvest of righteousness and peace.
speaker-0 (13:42)
Yeah, I think I love that take on it. And I love that you’re able to look back and go, hey, there was nothing really that I gave up on. And there was nothing that I didn’t follow through. ⁓ For the person, unfortunately, I can’t say that I was like making a mental list. like, I have like a page full of things.
speaker-1 (14:00)
I mean, I’m curious. Yeah, now I’m curious about what…
speaker-0 (14:02)
Like, well, I know, where do
you want to start? But it’s like as I was reflecting and thinking of like, why did I not see dance through? Because you know, I was in a company, right? I was a dancer for 13 years. I just I realized, like I was thinking, it’s like, I just didn’t want it as bad as the other girls did. I was more concerned with, am I going to be available for social hour? ⁓ You know, and I think a lot of that had to do with insecurities of really wanting to be liked and really wanted to be in the in group. ⁓
And what I regret is that I let down my company.
I regret that I didn’t practice as hard as they did and that I was not as prepared as they were. I some of them went on to Juilliard and the Atlanta School of Ballet. Like they were very good because they practiced really hard. I didn’t have that level of commitment as a young teenager. I just didn’t. have like a long list of things that I’m like, I wish I probably would have saw that through and that went through. I was a different person then. And that’s not who I am today. But I would, I think we’re
My question is, is for the person who’s going like, yeah, maybe I just don’t want it as bad as I used to.
speaker-1 (15:10)
you.
That I think is a fair question because because you asked me and I say like, I would describe myself as someone that I have an extremely I have always had an extremely high level of commitment and focus to a very few small number of things. Right. And and so the paradox principle of sacrifice from take the stairs says, okay, how do people pull themselves through the muck? How do you endure the pain?
about that. ⁓ So when you ask that question, what is what must I do in order to endure the suck of achieving the goal? And it’s simple, you leverage long term vision to endure short term sacrifices. That’s it. So if someone is struggling with discipline, a lot of times people will say, Rory, I’m struggling with a lack of discipline. But in reality,
It’s not that they’re struggling with a lack of discipline as much as they’re struggling with a lack of vision. In other words, discipline becomes dormant in the absence of a dream. If I have a clear vision and it’s the vision I really want and I spend time thinking about it and I allow myself the permission to dream about it coming true,
then it creates a naturally strong connection. Think of it like a safety line, right? Like ⁓ that is pulling me through all of the muck it takes to get there. Inversely or conversely, if I don’t have a clear vision of what I want or…
I it’s fuzzy or I have a vision but I don’t really want it that bad or I have a vision and I don’t think about it that often or I have a vision but I don’t allow myself the permission to have it because I think it’s really unrealistic because it is unrealistic for all of us at first but if you don’t have that then you don’t have a more line to pull you through the muck and so you don’t because in this instance
there’s a context for the sacrifice to take place. There’s something that I want, I’m willing to do whatever it takes to get there. In this one, there’s not anything I really want, which means my brain is gonna default to whatever is most convenient, most comfortable.
in the short term and so we don’t. And so I think that’s part of what, and this is a place where I do struggle a little bit relating with some people and I think for the most part people are like, Rory’s a nice guy, but when I coach my private clients and even if I’m coaching a young speaker, when I look at the cost of our brand builders group program, I was having this conversation recently with someone on our sales team. I go, if you, we are giving people,
what I believe is more valuable than a four-year, six-year degree in this whole space for less than the price that you would pay to take one class for one semester in college.
I believe our program legitimately is as valuable as a four-year degree if you want to be a speaker, author, coach, consultant, or if you’re an expert of any kind. And we give you the entire freaking program for less than one college class.
plus the live experiences, plus the AI bots to execute it. And I go, I’m sorry, but if you can’t come up with a few thousand dollars to invest in your dream, then quit your dream now. Because if you’re not spending that money and time with us, then what are you spending it on? And I go, if you’re not doing it, like you’re not gonna make it.
speaker-0 (19:03)
Well, that comes back to the difference of do you say you want it or do you really want it? Exactly. It’s like, do you want it bad enough? Do you really want it?
speaker-1 (19:13)
Do you want it enough to endure what it takes to get it? That’s the real question. Right? It’s like, yeah, everybody would love to have a New York Times bestseller. Okay, here’s a more, funnier example of me in the opposite, right? It’s like, so we, know, I’ve been using AI to write songs, as you know, right? And it’s like, I’d ⁓ love to be a music star. Like, I would love my songs to be all over the radio. Like, I think they’re really good. And I would love to have famous people sing the songs and get millions of dollars in royalty checks.
But I don’t love it enough to endure what I would have to do to get it. What I’d have to give up to get it, to hustle and to build the relationships with a whole new industry of people and like, you know, cannibalize the time of the vision that we’re pursuing now and everything. like, yeah, it’s like, it’s a dream. It’s not, it’s not
actually a goal. It’s not something that I’d be willing to commit to. And so because of that, it’s a hobby, right? And I go, yeah, I’ll throw a little time at it just for fun. But like, that’s the question is, do you want it? Do you want it bad enough? And I will say for many, for many people watching,
you don’t actually want it bad enough and you’re gonna get destroyed by people who do want it bad enough. And I actually think it’s an honorable decision to say, yeah, you know what, I actually don’t really want this. I thought I did, but I don’t really want it. I think that’s an honorable decision. I think you should go all in on something you genuinely care about because you can’t compete, you can’t kind of compete and play against professionals. In the world of personal branding these days, you better bring your fricking A game because you’re competing with Cody Sanchez and Alex Hormone.
and Louis Howes and Amy Porterfield and Jenna Kutcher and Ed Milet and John Maxwell and it’s like maybe you’re not playing on that level but you’re playing against people who care about their calling and I go if you can’t invest a little money and a little time to do this you might as well just give up now. That’s you know the unfriendly Roy but that’s how I honestly feel.
speaker-0 (21:15)
Why, you know, it’s interesting because I hear a lot of people talk about, you can tell Roy is heated about this topic. I have struck a chord. have struck a chord. ⁓ but people, lot of times they say, well, I’ve just, I’m so passionate about this. And I think people use that word loosely. And we talked about this here recently of like the actual definition of passion is being willing to suffer for something. And it’s like, when you say I’m passionate about something, you’re going, no, I am willing to suffer. am willing to endure. I am willing to do the
speaker-1 (21:20)
You’ve hit a
speaker-0 (21:45)
hard stuff. I am willing to be inconvenienced. I am willing to suffer, right? I want to just like highlight that word for the thing that I love.
speaker-1 (21:53)
This is why they call it the passion of the Christ. Yeah, mean, but it’s so again, it’s all spiritual.
speaker-0 (21:56)
I knew you were going to truth,
I think it’s the difference between passion versus interests, passion versus hobbies. There’s a difference there. And it’s like, are you interested in this? I eat you.
speaker-1 (22:12)
My music,
new songwriting.
speaker-0 (22:14)
passionate about this. And if you’re passionate about it, that means you can’t not do it. That means you’re willing to suffer for it. So I just, wanted to just reconcile some of the conversation to the person that we’ve, you know, kind of started with, like that you’ve begun to give up, that you’ve begun to recoil, that you’ve begun to stop doing the things. And it’s like, maybe, maybe the first thing that you can do after listening to this episode is go, ⁓ is this an interest or a passion? And perhaps there’s
There’s a line of difference that you need to recognize in this thing that you’re doing. It’s like, no, this is something I’m interested in versus this is something I’m passionate in. Because if it’s just an interest, it’s a hobby and those can come and go, right? You spend more, you spend less, but that’s different than a passion and a calling.
speaker-1 (23:03)
And I think the difference between another difference between an interest and a passion is an interest is something that works out if it’s convenient for it to work out. Like if I have some extra time, I’ll deke around with songwriting. If I post it and it takes off and goes viral and okay, great, it works out. That’s different than a passion that goes, I’m going to do whatever it takes, right?
being a speaker, becoming one of the best speakers in the world wasn’t something that I lightly did or accidentally did or stumbled my way into. It was a commitment and a focus and an endurance and it still is, right? I still feel like I’m early in my speaking career of like really where I wanna be. And by the way, I don’t think it’s dishonorable at all.
to identify something as an interest. Totally. think what you’re saying is really important is just be honest with yourself.
speaker-0 (24:01)
And I think perhaps if you’re feeling a dwindling in something, I guess what I would maybe ask you to reflect on is, was it really just an interest? Was it really just something you’d like to do? Was it a hobby versus a calling and a passion? You know, as you were talking, I was thinking, I have a good friend, his name is Dennis. And what started as something that was just a hobby and interest was pickleball. And it was something that he did for fun. Then he kind of was like, hey, I’m pretty good at this. this now it’s a social thing. He did it with his wife and he was doing it with friends. Now it’s a full.
passion. And it’s like, here’s how I know it. It’s all he wants to talk about. He’s like, Hey, you want to get together and play pickleball? It used to be, Hey, do want to get together and talk about business? It’s like, ⁓ and everything is situated around his pickleball schedule and his now tournaments, what he’s reading, what he’s watching. And it’s like, I have watched this shift from, it’s something I casually do to it’s something I’m passionate about doing. He gets up at 5am to do it before work. He’s now watching game film. He’s hired a
coach, he’s now weight training so that he can have a better spring. He’s now reading books and he just got the lottery ticket for the U S open for pickleball. It has evolved into something and it’s, and I think the reason I called on that as you were talking is like, I’ve watched a hobby turn into a passion and there’s a difference. It’s Hey, this is something I do and I have time and it’s convenient versus no, I’m willing to be inconvenienced. I will spend my money, time and energy to learn about it, to do it, to talk about it, to practice it.
And that’s
Maybe that’s just some self-reflection that you can ask yourself. It’s do I read about this in my spare time? Do I talk about it when no one else is bringing it up? Is this what I spend time thinking about or dreaming about or journaling about? Is this what I’m asking questions? Is this the content I’m following? And if the answer is no to all of those, then maybe it’s just an interest and that’s okay. But then maybe you shouldn’t be beating yourself up so much. This is just a seasonal interest or something that has come and gone versus knowing the difference between a passion.
which is something you’re willing to suffer for, a true calling on your life.
speaker-1 (26:06)
And here’s a litmus test, another litmus test to know if something is a calling and a passion or just like a hobby and an interest. If your commitment is conditional, that means it’s a hobby and if your commitment is unconditional, that means it’s a passion and a calling. To me, the metaphor I’ve been thinking about a lot and coaching myself with is a wedge. I love a wedge. A wedge forces itself into something, right? Like you prioritize
speaker-0 (26:18)
That’s good.
speaker-1 (26:36)
You a passion. You prioritize a calling. You don’t wait for the time to be available. You make it available. It wedges its way into your life, into your conversation. You don’t go, if I have time, I’ll do that. It’s like, no, I’m gonna do that and then everything else will be, if I have time, I’ll do those things.
speaker-0 (26:59)
That’s good.
All right. Well, this is a good transition into our community question, which you get to read.
speaker-1 (27:08)
question I
to read to you okay so community question ⁓
One of our favorite segments. Okay, so these are from our members that are in our brand builders group membership program. They vote on the most pressing question and then they vote up, you know, which questions they think are most applicable to them. And the one with the most upvotes is the community question. So this week it’s from Sarah. Rory and AJ, I’ve been a brand builders group client for almost two years. Thank you, Sarah. I’ve done the workshops. I know my brand. I know my message. I genuinely believe in the work I do, but I cannot stay
consistent. I’ll be on a roll for two or three weeks posting showing up making progress and then something happens. A busy season, a hard week, a vacation and I fall completely off. You’re not alone. And then the shame of falling off makes it even harder to get back up. This cycle has been going on for two years. I’m exhausted by it. How do I break it for good? Wow. What a powerful honest question. ⁓ Yeah. AJ, why don’t you just solve this one for us?
speaker-0 (28:14)
⁓ Here’s what I would say is you got to ask yourself is there something in the cyclical nature of what you’re doing that isn’t sustainable and is that why you keep falling off? ⁓ And so I think that there’s a lot of things like if I just take the more tactical approach versus the mindset and the emotional approach.
speaker-1 (28:26)
That’s good tactical.
I’m gonna take the mindset
and emotion.
speaker-0 (28:36)
I figured you might, ⁓ is it’s really more of like, Hey, are you biting off more than you can chew? And that’s why there’s an ebb and a flow. Is it not sustainable in a hard week or on a vacation week? And you got to ask yourself, it’s like, okay, well, what would need to change to make this sustainable regardless of the week?
Regardless if I’m on vacation, if it’s a hard week, if I get busy, if someone gets sick, there’s got to be something that’s sustainable no matter what. And I guess another tactical thing is like I would give yourself three versions of what consistent looks like for you. I have a my routine.
consistent, I have a low consistent week and a high consistent week. So here’s what I mean by that is on a normal routine week, this is what I do. On a low week, in other words, I would say something unexpected happens. A child is homeschooled, from school sick. There was a family emergency. It’s a vacation.
speaker-1 (29:41)
We
icepocalypse.
speaker-0 (29:43)
We
have ice pop-o-lips. In other words, what your low consistency week is, this is my bare minimum. So you’re just setting three levels of consistency for yourself. This is a routine norm that I’m going to do on a normal week. Then give yourself the permission and in a off week, then you have my bare minimum expectations.
and give yourself some grace and some peace of going, I’m going to stay consistent, but consistent looks different for me in those weeks. And then also get, but counter that with a high consistency week, is, Hey, if you have extra time, I don’t know where that comes from, but if you do, if you have extra time in a week, it’s like, Hey, on those weeks, I’m going to do this. And now you have ranges. And I think a part of having ranges is what eliminates the guilt and the shame to give yourself the grace and the compassion of going like, Hey, there’s going to be unexpected stuff that happens.
to get sick. Family members are going to fall sick. You’re going to get sick. There’s going to be vacation days. Kids are going to be out of school. There’s going to be things that happen. So give yourself like, hey, bare minimum expectations are going to happen on my unexpected weeks. My norm is this. And when I have that extra time, if it ever comes, then this is what it’s going to look like for me. And that’ll give you permission to ebb and flow through all those without feeling guilt and shame while still staying consistent.
speaker-1 (31:00)
That’s good, that’s good.
For you Sarah that asked this question and anyone who is struggling with consistency where you’re on and then you’re off and you’re on and you’re off, you say this cycle has been going on for two years and I’m exhausted by it. How do I break it for good? Part of what I would say Sarah is I think you need to reframe this. You’re saying I’m exhausted by it. When I read this, I’m energized by it. You’re talking about how you keep coming back. You’re talking about how you’ve been in for two years. You’re talking about how you’re fighting. You’re talking about how you have over
overcome shame and gotten back on the horse. I’m not exhausted by this. I’m energized by this. This isn’t necessarily something that you have to break for good. This is just you’re building the muscle that it takes. Like you have to rethink how you’re thinking about it. And I think that the, you know, the devil plants these seeds of doubt like, ⁓ this isn’t working. You’re inconsistent. No, that’s what he’s saying because you’re almost there. You’re on track. Like you are doing the
thing. So just it’s you have to you have to celebrate what you are doing and not be so focused about what you’re not doing. Look, this whole episode is been about helping you understand that you may not get the wins and you might have to slow down. You might have to slow to a crawl. Just don’t stop. Just don’t quit. Progress over perfection.
Like the victory is not in whatever expectation you’ve got in your mind of what consistency looks like. The victory is that you have been facing rejection and difficulty and you keep going. That means you’re winning. That doesn’t mean you’re losing. That means you’re winning. Keep going. Keep going. Slow down if you must, but don’t you quit, Sarah.
speaker-0 (32:52)
Yeah, and I would just, I would add to that. It’s like, this is a good reminder of how muscle is built. Muscle has to be broken down before it can be built up, right? And that is literally what you’re saying here. It’s like in order to get stronger, there has to be things that are broken down and every single time you get back on and you do it again, it’s gonna get a little bit easier and you’re gonna get a little stronger. This is a reframe. This is not exhaustion. This is growth. This is ⁓ being energized. And I love that reframe.
Y’all, everyone who’s listening, I would just encourage you, like, if this message resonates with you, one, would you just save it and come back to it on those days when you feel defeated and go, no, I need to go back and listen to this motivational pep talk from Rory Vaden of why I gotta keep going and I can’t give up.
Or maybe you’re listening to this and you’re going, this episode was built for this person I know. I have to share it with them. They’re on the verge of giving up on something. I need to share it with them. Would you just do us a favor? Do them a favor and share this episode with someone that you know that this could help give them just enough spark to keep going. And while you’re at it,
If you wouldn’t do us, or if you wouldn’t mind doing us a favor and subscribe to this so that you can get those constant reminders and tips to keep going the strategies that you need, but also the heartfelt personal experience and motivation that what you do matters. so subscribe this, share this with a friend and come back next time to hear me and Rory talk it out on the wealthy and well-known podcast.
Keep going. Keep going. going. And subscribe. And keep.
speaker-1 (34:30)
Going. Keep. Going. Keep going.
That’s great.
Ep 017: More Money, More Problems? How Entrepreneurs Prevent Burnout
AJ (00:00)
gonna start by quoting Biggie Smalls. Mo money, mo problems. that’s not just a line in a rap song. Mo money, mo problems. You got mo stuff to…
RORY (00:09)
This
is why I this is I fell in love with you, babe.
Many, many entrepreneurs burn out because they don’t take care of themselves. They don’t follow the rhythms, the routines, and the priorities that we’re gonna be talking about on today’s episode. As an entrepreneur, business owner, like you, have to maintain your health and optimize your wellbeing, both mentally and physically. So we’re gonna talk about some of those ideas for how to do that with both myself, Rory Vaden, co-founder of Brand Builders Group.
I’m joined by my wife, my business partner and our CEO at Brand Builders Group, AJ Vaden. So excited to have this conversation, babe.
AJ (00:53)
Yeah, I think this is a good opportunity for reminders and refreshers for the both of us. And so as we’re reminded of all the things that work and what we should be doing, everyone else will get the benefits. ⁓
RORY (01:07)
There are some
topics that we teach that we do a really good job of and there’s other topics where it’s like we’re working progress. But I want to start the conversation with understanding why is it so stressful to be a CEO or and to be an entrepreneur? I think a lot of entrepreneurs, whether they’re just starting out or if they’ve been doing it for 30 years, I think there is this sort of destructive, limiting belief that a lot of them have that it’s like
AJ (01:13)
We’re working.
RORY (01:34)
shouldn’t be so hard and why is this so hard and if it’s this hard I must, you know, I must suck. Like I must be doing everything wrong or like everybody on my team is wrong or like just like this is terrible or it’s not God’s design. But you know when you zoom out I look at entrepreneurs on the whole and I go no this is kind of just like a hazard of the job. ⁓ And so I would love your perspective and opinion on why is it so stressful? Like what makes
the function and role of a CEO stressful. And then maybe we can try to first understand what is kind of normal ish, and then what is really like abnormal and then we can talk about the routines and rhythms for how to how to manage it all.
AJ (02:16)
Yeah, I think I would actually start with.
a not so often talked about shift from entrepreneur to CEO. Because as an entrepreneur, you typically start with doing everything. And so I liken to talk about there’s really two different definitions of CEO. And in the entrepreneur seat, a CEO is really the chief everything officer. do everything. They make the sales, they send the invoices, they pay the bills, they do the bookkeeping, they do the delivery, they
do the ideation, the execution, they do the marketing, and then eventually they hire someone and then someone else and then someone else and then someone else. But an entrepreneur starts as CEO, chief everything officer. And it’s really hard to make the leap from chief everything officer to chief executive officer. And I think there’s a, that’s just not discussed of when does everything start to fall off your plate.
And in what order does everything fall off your plate? So at some point you actually do become a CEO, which is chief executive officer, which means you’re making executive decisions. You’re not paying the bills anymore. You’re not sending the invoices. you’re not the one who is making every job post or delivering every client or having every sales call. And sometimes that shift happens quickly. And I say quickly, I mean, over five to 10 years, sometimes that shift never happens because the CEO,
entrepreneur wasn’t able to release things from their plate rather willingly ⁓ by choice or even by force.
And I think there’s a lot of that is your identity gets caught up in it. Or you just get so used to being so busy, you don’t know what to do with yourself if you don’t have all that stuff to do anymore. And I think there’s a lot of different things or you tried to pass it off and it didn’t work or someone left and then you live in the mindset of, I tried it once, it didn’t work, I’ll never do it again. Lots of things don’t work the first time. That doesn’t mean we don’t try again. But I think a lot of us live in that seat.
RORY (04:22)
So the I love this distinction between the chief everything officer, which is really an entrepreneur, CEO is a fancy title to a true chief executive officer. There seems to be stress at both places, though, like, you know, you people might think, if I was a true if I became a real CEO, and I had a bunch of people on my team to just do everything, I wouldn’t have stress and that at least not been my experience or observation that that is really what happens. It’s it’s like new levels, new devils ⁓ that
that kind of thing. what are some of the stressors that you think are normal that are kind of like, yeah, you’re going to experience this if you’re an entrepreneur or if you’re a CEO. ⁓ And then what are some of the things that maybe you try to go like, yeah, maybe this is where it is unhealthy or
AJ (05:14)
Yeah,
I think there’s two things that I would like to highlight. gonna start by quoting Biggie Smalls. ⁓ Mo money, mo problems. And that’s not just a line in a rap song. Mo money, mo problems. You got mo stuff to…
RORY (05:31)
This
is why I this is I fell in love with you, babe. Let’s talk about being a CEO by quoting Biggie Smalls. That’s my woman.
AJ (05:39)
But there is
some truth and it’s like you got my money you go have more problems And I think there’s a lot to that and people just think if I could just hit this revenue mark if I can just hit this net profit Mart if I just hit these income levels and as like well those come with more Responsibilities they come with more decisions they come with more more complexity and then they come with the second thing which is more people more problems Mm-hmm, right and I say that lovingly I love our team and I choose to have a team that’s not for everyone and I
think a lot of entrepreneurs don’t know that they don’t want a before they have one.
They realize it after the fact. Not everyone was meant to have a business where they manage a lot of team. that’s it. That’s it. That’s a choice. Like you have to have a love and a passion of building, growing, leading people to do that really well. And there’s a difference between why a lot of people became entrepreneurs because they didn’t want to work for someone else or they didn’t want to have to do, but it’s like you’re like, if you’re going to grow a business, you’re going to have to work with other people. Right. And those are your team. And so I think a lot of people get into this because they wanted freedom and flexibility and
They wanted to do their own thing and it’s like, well, once you start adding people and systems in place, well, some of that starts to shift because now there’s a team dynamic and you don’t get to make every decision on your own anymore because it impacts other people and their livelihoods and their families. And so I think there’s a lack of reckoning with that before you realize, ⁓ I’m growing. have to have more people. Wait, do I want more people? I don’t know. And I think a lot of us grow for the sake of we think growth is what we should do versus growing is what we want to do. ⁓
And I think a lot of that just comes from comparison and other issues. But I think this whole idea, like, you know, to what you were saying is what are some of the stressors that happen? And I think it’s like stress is going to come when you’re trying to do more than you’re capable of doing. And I say capable in terms of capacity. ⁓ And I think that we all have different levels of capacity.
And when you’re trying to do more than what you have capacity for is when stress comes. And I think it’s good for us all to remember, I think we use the term stress as negative. There are two different types of stress. There is a good stress, and then there is a bad stress. There is a stress that is good and healthy.
And then there is a stress that is not healthy and that is continued stress. There are some parts of quote unquote, term stress that are actually good and healthy. Biologically speaking, ⁓ they get us moving. get us doing things. They create awareness. It’s, but those prolonged are not good. it’s
RORY (08:17)
build muscle, build resilience and
AJ (08:24)
Daily minute stress, no problem. It just does that continue and compound day over day, week over week with no relief. And that’s where stress becomes really unhealthy. But stress in and of itself is not a bad thing. It’s just when it takes over and there’s no break, there’s no relief is when that becomes a bad thing. And that comes back to, you doing more than you have capacity to do?
RORY (08:48)
Yeah. And
the people topic is one that I think is a good example to go.
having people problems is normal. It’s expected. It’s hard, but it’s a healthy normal part of running a business if you have people. You have people problems not because your people are problems, but because the inherent nature of us as people is we go on vacation, we have babies, we burn out, we get bored, we have conflict with each other, right? And there’s just a natural like set of conflict, I think,
that comes from having a group of humans trying to do anything in close proximity. And that in and of itself, I think is an important realization for an entrepreneur to know, just like you’re saying is to go, if you’re bringing on people, you need to understand one, there’s going to be dynamics and challenges, there’s going to be amazing opportunity and growth that comes, but you’re signing up for increased complexity and some amount of challenges that are outside of your control. And you really have to
care about them and their their overall development as part of this.
AJ (10:00)
that what
you need to recognize is that as you bring on a team, you have to choose to become a leader, a leader of people. And it’s a, you’re adding on a whole new set of tasks and responsibilities from entrepreneur to entrepreneur to now I’m also adding in leader, leader of people. And those are ironically different.
RORY (10:24)
That is so good. Those are different. That is so true. You don’t have to be an entrepreneur. You don’t have to be a leader to be an entrepreneur. ⁓ you don’t necessarily, you don’t have to be an entrepreneur to be a leader. But the moment that you choose to scale a business and bring on people, you must also be a leader.
AJ (10:46)
You’re bringing on a whole new job and set of skills that I don’t think people recognize. ⁓ in other words, when it was just you or you and one person, it’s like, maybe you didn’t have to have so much formality such as one-on-one meetings or processes or systems or documentation and policies and, ⁓ benefits and, ⁓ team meetings. And it’s like, well, that all creates structure and guess what? That all takes time. And you didn’t double your time. You didn’t double your capacity.
And all of a sudden all these new things are creeping in and the old things haven’t come off. And that’s what I’m talking about with capacity. And so I think there’s a lot where that stress really starts to grow as we keep adding, adding, adding, and nothing falls off.
RORY (11:32)
Now.
I think, you know, it’s sort of a law of nature that if something is healthy, it grows. Right. ⁓ And I think I’ve always felt like if a business is healthy, it should generally be growing, barring like, you know, really crazy circumstances. And so that means there’s always going to be some stress, like your growth is always some level of stress. So the conversation shifts to going, OK, what can we do to manage that stress?
load as you’re saying some of it is healthy some of it’s unhealthy but there’s always stress there like if you’re growing there is stress.
AJ (12:11)
But not always bad, but yes. And even if you’re not growing their stress.
RORY (12:13)
huh. Yeah, so.
That’s right. Yeah.
If you’re if you’re declining, there’s there’s even more stress. Yeah, like there’s there’s there’s stress there too. So what are some of the practices? Yeah, the rituals that either you’ve done, you’ve seen other people do you’ve learned from that helped you sort of maintain? You know, we say in our new book, that peace is the new profit. ⁓ How have you tried to like, maintain that from a practical
AJ (12:41)
Yeah,
well, I would just say that if you relate to feeling like, yeah, I have way more work to do than I have hours in the day and I have zero capacity and I have to work on nights and I have to work on weekends and yeah, I’m exhausted. It’s like, well, I can relate to you. And I would just say you most likely can’t solve it on your own. So I’d say most of what I’m going to share, I have learned through lots of outside help, coaches, conferences, masterminds, mentors, ⁓ reading, know, prayer,
like this is not something that just comes.
RORY (13:16)
And if people don’t know
this about you and me, you’re a personal development junkie. Totally. We are personal development junkie.
AJ (13:22)
Totally.
⁓ Like one of the core values at Brain Builders Group is personal growth, i.e. personal development. So yes, I’m a huge advocate of it and apparently in this area, I’ve had to do it a lot for it to finally stick.
RORY (13:38)
Plus you’re
married, you’re married, you’re you have the extra blessing of being married to someone who adds a little extra stress along the way just just to keep you.
AJ (13:46)
But
here’s something that I have found. Now I’m a part of EO Nashville, the entrepreneurs organization here in Nashville. And I’ve had the immense privilege to have the same forum, which is like a small group within EO for 10 years. we’ve seen marriages come and go, businesses come and go, ⁓ business divorces. We’ve seen family members come and go. And it’s been a very deep relationship. And one of the things that I have seen
More that we’ve seen, you know, mergers, acquisitions and exits. So I’m just saying like first hand, real life, all the things, ⁓ resignations and hard decisions, like all the things. And one of the things that I’ve seen that causes the most stress in all of our lives is when we constantly ponder why.
And we just, we live in this, why did that happen? Why didn’t that work out? ⁓ Why, why, why? And there’s just not near enough conversation around what am I gonna do different? How can we move forward?
And I believe that in my own personal life and in the lives of the people that I get the closest front row seat to when we ruminate and why did this happen or why is it like this or why is the business declining or why didn’t that customer buy or why did that person resign or why didn’t they file the taxes on time? Why, why, why, why, why? We’re surrounding ourselves with problems and zero solutions. We’re not even giving ourselves the opportunity to go what needs to happen next.
How do we need to move forward? And I think it’s a really important thing where it’s like, would say most of my stress is when I sit there and try to figure out why isn’t this working versus what’s the next thing I can do? What’s the one thing I can do?
RORY (15:38)
You, not everybody watching knows this, you lost your mom when you were young. Did you ask that question why you were 15 years old? Of course. Right? So did you, how does that, I mean, I’ve never heard you talk about this until this very second about this distinction. And I, as you’re saying it, I’m going, that is so true. Like why doesn’t do much?
AJ (15:50)
Don’t
It
doesn’t do anything. ⁓ It does nothing for us.
RORY (16:04)
It keeps us ruminating in nothing
like productive really.
AJ (16:10)
Because even if you find the answer as to why, until you go do something about it, nothing changes.
RORY (16:17)
Did that, so did you learn that from your mom’s past?
AJ (16:21)
No, think I don’t know. don’t know. I think that I came to a very good healthy resolution years after she died of going, I have two perspectives that I can choose to move forward with. One is, why did this happen to me?
And give a whole bunch of excuses of why I was a rebellious teenager or why I don’t do this or why this happened or why I think this way. but those, those really did feel like a lot of excuses. And I think a lot of that work happened at a personal development conference. went to landmark forum and, ⁓ I think that during that retreat, right, it was like a three day retreat. I really learned it’s like, I can rather choose to live in this. Like, why did this happen to me? Why my family? Why my mom? Why, why, why?
And I like, at the end of the day, that wasn’t doing anything for me. Or the other perspective was to go like, what can I take from this event and do something positive with it? And it was a perspective shift that I made in my early 20s of like, it really did change my heart and my stance towards bad things happening to, I don’t focus on the bad, I focus on the good. And it’s like, a bad thing happened after
15 years of good things. So why don’t I talk about all the good things? Why do I talk about this one event that was really bad and I don’t talk about the other thousands of events and moments and memories that were really good? And then that made me think about in business and in sales. I remember in like my early days in sales, if I didn’t make a sale, that was the only thing I could think about.
I didn’t think about the 20 people who signed up that day. I thought about the two who didn’t follow through. And so it was like for me, it was a full life shift around I get to choose what I focus on. The bad events or the good events. And I think that’s just a choice for all of us. In the middle of, you know, we had someone recently ⁓ resign in their role at Bremboilers Group.
Right? And it’s like, I can really just get myself up in arms of like, what am I doing wrong as a leader? And don’t, and like, don’t get me wrong. I probably had a good 16 seconds of that. And before I had to like check myself, but then I had to look around and go, oh yeah. And we have 41 people who are still here. So do I want to focus on this one person who just wasn’t a fit for where we’re at in this culture of business growth? Or do I want to focus on the 41 people who were like raising their hands, going, I’m here for it. Those are choices. Bad things happen simultaneously.
with good things all around you. And I think bad stress happens when we only focus on the bad things that are happening and we’re like, why did this, why did this, why did this? Because you could also ask yourself, why is all this good stuff happening? But we don’t do that. We ask, why is the bad stuff happening? We don’t ask, why is all this good stuff happening? And I think we have to really have a good healthy discipline of countering the two. And I just don’t think we as human beings in the current state that we live in do that naturally, do that on our own. ⁓
life coach that I talk to every month that has to like bring me back to this every month because I can’t do it on my own. I have a prayer practice and a journal practice every morning where the Lord brings me back to this every morning because I don’t do it on my own.
RORY (19:39)
Yes,
I want to talk about that. mentally speaking here, there’s a big transition of going, how do you how do you stay mentally, emotionally healthy? It’s spend less time asking why and asking more time what what can be done? ⁓ It’s spending less time going. You know what bad thing happened and going spend more time thinking about what the good things were that happened when you get.
AJ (20:07)
police
counter.
RORY (20:08)
At least counter it. I mean, coming back to your mom, that’s always resonated with me that you’ve always said, you know, I don’t think of it as I lost my mom when I was only 15. I think about it as I had 15 years with the best mom ever. ⁓ And I think that’s just that’s a choice. Like that is a choice. So that’s on the mental side. ⁓ What about the practical side, the pragmatic? Like, what are the things you do in your schedule? What are the things that
activities that you engage in? Are there any other like actionable things?
AJ (20:44)
Yes.
Yeah. So I want to talk about three very specific actionable things that I think really matter a lot when it comes to how do you prevent burnout in your own, in your own life, reduce stress and actually enjoy what you do. And I think most of us who are business owners, entrepreneurs, we did this because there was a love and a passion for it. And I think it was Mike McCalliwitz I heard who say this is the biggest threat to any small business.
is that the founder just decides they don’t want to do it anymore because it becomes too much work, too much stress, too much burnout, and they’re tired. So how do you prevent that? Because that’s definitely not why you started. And I think there’s some things you have to have in place. I think the very first thing is that you actually have to have time to think.
I think most CEOs or entrepreneurs in both categories, chief everything officer or chief executive officers. If you’re, if you run with a rhythm of meeting to meeting to meeting to meeting to meeting to meeting to meeting, you have no time to think or process. So that just means you’re just making decision after decision after decision without any time to reflect, pause, think, ideate, brainstorm, counter ask questions. And it’s just not a healthy pace to be in. Again, you can do it for a short amount of time. You can do it for a day or a day every
but it can’t be every day of every week. At some point, and I use this term a lot for myself, it’s like, you’re gonna have decision fatigue. And that happens when there isn’t time to think. So schedule time in your calendar that is for strategic thinking. And then don’t schedule over it, right?
RORY (22:28)
And are you talking about
like morning routine? Are you talking about like during the day?
AJ (22:32)
During the day, Monday, I block my calendar from 2 p.m. to 5 p.m. Every Monday. Now, for those of you who listening, another practice that I have, because I have a business partner, is that we have a Monday morning walk that is our business meeting.
RORY (22:46)
That’s me.
AJ (22:50)
So, but I think there’s two things there. One, we’re business partners, we have a weekly meeting. If you have a business partner, or even this could be your executive team, you need a weekly meeting.
That’s not with everyone, but it’s with your business partner or your executive team. And it’s a three hour meeting. It’s not a 30 minute standup. It’s not a one hour stat review. This is a three hour. What’s the most important things? What do we have to discuss? What do we need to get on the same page with? What did I do last week that I didn’t tell you or vice versa? What’s happening this week that we may or may not know about, but it’s a three hour. So think that’s the first thing. If you’re not hearing me is there is a three hour business meeting with your partner or executive team every.
RORY (23:29)
week.
And I will say we started Brand Builders Group on three hour walk around a park and
Now we have 50 employees between the three businesses almost and a lot more complexity. In every stage, there has been enough to fill a three-hour meeting every Monday and more. If you’re not spending at least that much time together, everything splinters and fractures and goes crazy and creates stress.
AJ (24:01)
and create stress. Yeah. And then
you’re trying to catch up on nights and
RORY (24:05)
Because I think when you have a business partner, even if you have an executive team, one of the causes of stress is you have people running really hard in different directions. And we’ve been guilty of that. All the time. If we don’t sync, we run so hard that we just end up like, even if we’re one degree off, we’re
AJ (24:24)
And
creates
a lot of frustration for our team because then they hear two different messages or two different areas of focus. But I want everyone to hear it’s like that’s the first thing to actually not have burnout is to have this routine meeting that you don’t miss. The second thing if you didn’t catch what I heard is it’s not in a boardroom. It’s not in a conference room. It’s not at your computer. It’s not at your desk. We do it on a walk. And I think that’s really important because this becomes more about a conversation than an agenda. ⁓ It creates freedom and flexibility.
to talk about things versus what’s next. What’s next? It’s not a PowerPoint presentation. This is a conversation. Two, I have found, this is for me, not for Rory, but moving helps keep my stress level down. So as we’re getting into things that we don’t disagree on.
RORY (25:09)
And
if your stress level is down, my stress level is down. So it is for me.
AJ (25:13)
But
these are things for like when we may not have ⁓ alignment on and I have found that being in nature Specifically in nature helps me go
RORY (25:22)
If y’all haven’t noticed AJ’s hair is really red and it’s it’s you know, it’s it’s it’s indicative of certain certain behavioral ⁓ patterns. There’s some fire some truth. There’s some truth to the fiery redhead.
AJ (25:37)
Bye.
I’m not not agreeing with that. ⁓ But being in nature helps keep me centered and remembering these conversations. These problems are very small. God is big. The world is big. This is small. God is big. The world is big. ⁓ And so, again, just a perspective shift that I don’t get in a boardroom because in a boardroom, I’m looking at stats and metrics and agendas and my mind goes elsewhere. So you got to find that. Maybe that doesn’t work for you, but those are just two things every Monday. So I start my Monday.
from 8 to 11 in a very important business meeting with my partner, but then from 2 to 5, I’m in my own meeting with myself. And that’s my strategic thinking time. And a lot of that is I put that on my calendar because there were so many things I needed to go back, write down, reflect on, take action on from my meeting with Rory.
And it’s like, also have a meeting with my chief of staff. You know, some of you may call it an EA right after my meeting with Rory. And it’s like, usually it’s like that helps me prioritize my week. And I don’t wait to the end of the week to tackle those things that happens on Monday for me. And so I have found that there are good rhythms and patterns that work really well for me. And stacking my Monday with meetings is unhealthy for me. A lot of people start, they have meeting Mondays. That’s not healthy for me. I can’t have a meeting Monday. I have to have a thinking Monday, a planning Monday.
and most of my meetings happen on Tuesdays, Wednesdays, and Thursdays. So if I’m gonna take calls and meetings, they’re never on Mondays and they’re never on Fridays. So I have themes and blocks of time for each day of the week so that I’m in a good ⁓ mental pattern of this is what I do on this day. And that has been a very healthy routine, but I don’t start the meeting.
or my Mondays with meetings because they’re crazy. And then I just start the week behind. And I think people who have the Sunday blues, right? And they’re like, tomorrow’s Monday. It’s because they know what’s coming on Monday, which is it’s a full eight hour marathon. So I didn’t want to have that. And…
That was up to me. I get to make that decision, so I don’t have a bizarre Monday. I have a very well-paced strategic meeting and then a meeting with myself to make sure that I’m well planned for the week.
RORY (27:55)
I also want to highlight one thing about the meeting that we have. ⁓ If you’re married or you work with your spouse, I want to make sure people know this is where we talk about work stuff. We do not talk about work stuff at night and on the weekend because that’s a mistake that I made for years. Yeah, we both made of like we have to have dedicated part of treating the business like a business is giving it ample space and time during the workday to talk about work stuff.
and not cramming the workday with everything else and then having the strategic stuff try to spill over into the nights and weekends. It’s not a good formula. That’s a recipe for stress, not a recipe for peace and scalability.
AJ (28:40)
was the first thing. That was a long answer. I’ll make the other two quite shorter. But the first one is just meeting rhythms and how you spend Mondays. I think Mondays set the tone for the week, at least for me. And running a company and a business and making sure I’m well planned and thought out for all the one-on-ones I’m going to have, team meetings, metrics meetings, financial reviews, whatever is happening that week, it can’t be on Monday. It’s not healthy for me. The second thing is how I start my day, right? And so think this is a really important part. It’s like if you start your day ⁓ in a tailspin, you’re going to end your day in a tailspin.
So I have a really good healthy morning routine. Your morning routine can be whatever it is, but for me, I know that between ⁓ six and seven, that has to be just my time with the Lord.
And when I have that time, I have a good day. And if I don’t get to have that day, that time with the Lord, I usually have a hard day. And it’s because I didn’t have a time to sit and reflect and be grateful and to be in the word. that just, what it does, it just sets the tone of what am I grateful for? What have I been blessed with? And anything that that’s hard that I have to face that day, I’ve already countered it with all the good that’s in my life. Bad things happen all the time, but I choose to counter it with the good things that the
word has given me by talking with him about it every morning.
RORY (29:56)
So I want to double tap on that because, you know, second nature for us at this point. like to somebody who goes, you know, I picture somebody listening to that being like, wait, you spend an hour reading Leviticus like every day? Like, how do you spend an hour reading the Bible or like what are you doing there? Like to go, that doesn’t seem, you know, exciting or maybe sleepy or whatever. know, like, ⁓ how do you how do you break that hour apart?
AJ (30:25)
If
you’re not a believer, that could be reading a personal development book or if you’re of a different faith, it’s reading whatever. So I would just say it’s your spiritual time, it’s your faith time. But mine’s a combination and I’m stealing this from the book. Jamie Winship wrote the book, Living Fearless. I was not a journaler prior to reading that book. I actually thought journaling was pointless and useless until I realized it wasn’t. It was a great revelation for me a couple of years ago when I started this practice.
⁓ But here are the prompts and I do these same prompts every single day. The first thing is I say, Lord today I’m grateful for. And then I share what I’m grateful for. And it’s sometimes the same, sometimes different. I journal just in case I forget. Right? So that’s the first thing. The second prompt is, Lord today I pray for.
RORY (31:07)
In your journal you write
AJ (31:17)
and I pray for people, pray for business, I pray for change, I pray for whatever. But those are the first two things. Then my third prompt is, Lord, what do you want to reveal to me today? Then I go to the Bible. So that’s how I start my Bible study.
RORY (31:31)
And you got, so you got those questions from Jamie.
AJ (31:34)
Well, there’s another one,
so I’m not done. okay. So, Lord, what do you want to reveal to me today? And that’s when I go to the Word. That’s when I go to Scripture. ⁓ And lo and behold, every single day, He has something to reveal to me. So then I go back to my journal and I write down what it was. Like, what stuck out to me? And I have a highlighter in my Bible, and there’s just always something that sticks out in a new and different way. It could be a verse, it could be a whole book, it could be a whole chapter, but there’s always something. And then I write it down, and then my last prompt is, Lord, what do you want me to do with that?
Not why did you reveal that, but what do you want me to do with that Lord? What’s my action item from here? And that’s how I have clarity of how to move forward in that day.
RORY (32:14)
So you’re literally having a conversation with God. Every day. Asking, what do want to reveal to me? Then you look at the Word, find the answer, and then you record the answer.
AJ (32:26)
That’s
the hour. And so it’s not like I’m reading scripture the whole time, but maybe 20 to 30 minutes of that time is like in the word reading. And I just look for guided plans. I’m not trying to figure it all on my own. I find guided plans, read through a Bible in the year. I’m doing a deep dive in a certain book, whatever it is. I find plans and I follow the plan. But here’s what I would say is important if you’re faith curious or you’re a follower. It’s like, if you go, he’ll always show you something.
And it’s always something that you need right then and there. And I just always need something. ⁓ There’s always something to learn. There’s always something to be shown. But that’s how I start my day. So my Monday routine is really important to me. My morning routine is really important to me. And then the third thing. ⁓
RORY (33:09)
hold on. So before
we get to the third thing, feel like, ⁓ forgive me, but I got to do a shout out here for the Eternal Life podcast. if any of you, if you struggle, if you’re a very logical, analytical person like I am and you struggle with faith, ⁓ that used to be me. I was a skeptic of faith and specifically Christianity and didn’t, I just struggled to believe that somebody had performed miracles and walked on water and raised from the dead. ⁓
And over 20 years, I put a lot of time into studying the history, the archaeology, and the logical and academic evidence to support the Christian faith. And I consolidated all of those findings into a free podcast called Eternal Life, Seven Questions Every Intelligent Skeptic Should Ask About Jesus. And it’s not meant to convert you. It’s just a presentation of the logical evidence that I found that is how I became a very devout convicted
believer, not on a spiritual encounter, but through a deep logical exploration. So you can check out the Eternal Life podcast if you or someone you know is like, know, faith curious but struggling with some of that. so back to number three.
AJ (34:25)
I
think more than anything, ⁓ not more than anything else, but I would say one of the things that has been most revolutionary in my life that I really truly underestimated the power of more than anything else. Like I didn’t underestimate the power of spending time with the Lord or having a good schedule. I didn’t underestimate. I knew that was important. I just had to make time for it. What I truly underestimated more than anything else was the importance of diet.
and physical fitness. And I always, I just don’t have time for that. And it’s like, now if I don’t make time, I feel the impact. Like I was really blind to how important it was for me to have a physical release of stress. And that looks different for all people.
RORY (35:11)
So this
is something we’ve learned about you together in the last couple of years. We didn’t know this about you. We knew this subconsciously, but we didn’t bring this into our consciousness about you, which you are a high energy burner.
AJ (35:23)
Congress.
high energy
burner which means if I do not have intense physical movement all my stress I tell I tell my kids I’m like ⁓ what’s his name shadow and Sonic if you’ve ever seen the third song yeah he’s got chaos energy and he runs around ⁓ chaos energy and that’s me I’m shadow from Sonic unless I release it and so I have to figure out it’s got to be a very brisk walk it has to be hot yoga it has to be punching a bag or playing
RORY (35:41)
of Sonic 3.
AJ (35:58)
intense game of pickleball with my kids. It has to be an energy release. A casual walk ain’t gonna do it. It’s gotta be an intense release, but it’s like even sometimes Roy will just look at me and he’s like, you need a walk? I’m like, I need a walk. And I’ll come back a different person. It’s like, what happened?
RORY (36:13)
Well, because because because I’m the opposite, right? It’s like yoga for me. I want a nap, right? I want a massage. Like I’m completely
AJ (36:21)
That’s
why like, whatever it is, but it’s still a physical release. I think that’s what people have to realize. Yours could be a nap. It could be a massage. Mine is a physical release of energy because all that stress builds up. And that’s where you just have to spend time going like, what does my body need? Not my mind. What does my body need to keep up with?
RORY (36:24)
Yeah.
my
mind. And by the way, here is a little bit of physiology and that we learned this is a scientific thing. We had you had a doctor that prescribed to you that said you need to hit stuff that there is a chemical release that happens in your body when you hit things. so rather than hitting me, we got a punching bag and 10 paddle sports we got we got we have we have pickleball now, but we have table tennis,
⁓ and real tennis and just anything where you can actually like make physical contact with.
AJ (37:17)
It’s amazing how much it makes a difference and again every body physical body is different So you have to know yours, but I truly underestimated how keeping my body in check actually allowed me to keep pace with my workload And so there is like for me a physical release. It might maybe it’s a power nap. Maybe you’re like Rory and it’s like
RORY (37:38)
You’re either sloth mode or your tiger mode. Like it’s probably ⁓ one of these two. And by the way, like you see this because when guys get frustrated, this happens sometimes, they punch a wall, right? And that like when guys get super duper wound up and get so angry, they will punch a wall. This is ⁓ a biological.
AJ (37:44)
⁓ But it matters. It matters a lot.
Gotta have a relief. Gotta-
Here’s what I would tell you if it doesn’t come out and a physical release it comes out in anger It comes out in frustration. It comes out and other physical ailments. It’s gonna come out If you guys have never read the book the body keeps the score It’s like the body holds on to your stress You have to figure out how to release it to be a better healthier happier person for your team for your family and for yourself And so the physical release is a huge part of my routine now, but then also the diet part again I totally truly
underestimated of a clean diet makes me a better productive leader.
RORY (38:40)
And I want people
to understand, we’re not talking about losing weight, being in shape, looking great. We’re talking about these are the things that are essential and critical and necessary for entrepreneurs for their mental health, their spiritual well-being.
AJ (38:56)
you
Extra hydration is necessary for the brain. what I used to think, I have eight glasses of water a day. I’m doing a great job. And it’s like, you need half of your body weight in water every day. And if you have a different type of drink, in ounces, if I have a coffee, then I need to add another eight ounces to counteract that. So I watch my water intake like a boss because your brain physically needs it to be high functioning. Other things of like when I have protein,
versus other things so I never have anything sugary or carby before I have a protein.
RORY (39:33)
Carby should
definitely be a word just for the record.
AJ (39:37)
But I’m just like, these are things that I’m going like.
My mind has been blown how these changes have changed my capacity, my mental capacity, my physical stamina that I’d really underestimated. I’m like, that’s a bunch of hoopla. No, it’s not. ⁓ It’s science. It’s sciency. is sciency. sciency. And so those are things which, however, again, I would just say if you’re listening to this and you’re like, can’t be that simple, right? You have a low stress Monday, you spend some time with the Lord, eat some protein and drink a lot of water. That’s what you’re saying?
I’m like, yeah, that’s what I’m saying. And over the last two and a half years, my stress level, my work capacity, my fatigue, my energy levels, you’re gonna test to this. am healthier, better and younger at 42 than I was at 32 by a long shot because I take these things serious now for my mental, physical and spiritual health.
RORY (40:34)
Here’s how you need to think about this. If you had a horse…
Let’s say that you had a million dollar racehorse that you owned and this horse won you money every time it went out. Wouldn’t you feed it the best food? Wouldn’t you get it the best coaching? Wouldn’t you? You’d have the best trainers. You would you would do a deliberate muscle routine, physical routine. Like if you had a million dollar racehorse, you would do everything to care for that racehorse. Every entrepreneur as an entrepreneur, you are the million dollar racehorse. Like you have to care for your
in that way and when you do these things you make more money. Just the word that AJ has been saying this whole time which I love is capacity. It increases your capacity and as you increase your capacity you can carry more which means you’re more productive. It doesn’t mean that stress goes away, it means that you can handle more before stress comes and so you’re able to handle the bigger levels and you get bigger results.
AJ (41:33)
When it does come, you
know how to release it faster. ⁓
RORY (41:36)
it. right. question.
AJ (41:39)
our community question of the day. This is a reminder. We do this every week and BBG members vote on the most pressing question that they want us to answer on the podcast and then all the other members upvote it and we pick the one that was most popular. So here we go today from Jason. I’m a real estate agent and I also coach agents on building their business. My weeks are completely reactive. I’m always putting out fires, jumping from call to call, and by Friday I realized I didn’t post-con…
content once, didn’t follow up with half my leads and didn’t move any of my big goals forward. I tell myself every week that next week I’ll be more intentional, but it never actually happens. What is the single change that would break this cycle for good?
RORY (42:25)
Ugh, these questions are awesome.
AJ (42:27)
These are real.
RORY (42:29)
These are from our members, right? This is from a member. ⁓ Jason and anybody who feels overwhelmed, busy, buried, and behind, here’s what I would say is the biggest difference between ultra-performers and multipliers. This comes from my second book and everybody else. Most people believe their strategy is, I will do all of the things that other people need me to do and with the time that is left over,
I will dedicate that to the things that I want to do. What multipliers do is I want you to think of a wedge. Okay, the metaphor here is a wedge. You don’t wait until you have space to do what you need to do or what you want to do. You have to wedge the things in.
that you wanna do. And it’s not just that you wanna do, it’s the things that you need to do. You multiply time by spending time on things today that give you more time tomorrow. But the whole book and framework is called the five permissions. The permission is what this is about. The emotional permission to invest time on things now that create more time tomorrow.
Absent a conscious calculation and absent a conscious permission to spend time on things that must be done, you will subconsciously, inadvertently default.
back to the constant state of interruption and urgency and just falling victim to whatever is latest and loudest. So you have to think longer term and realize that I’m not waiting until time is available to do my priorities. The definition of a priority is that it is a wedge. It’s not an empty space.
AJ (44:12)
Yeah, so I think very tactically speaking is that whatever your big goal is, whatever the most important things are to you, that has to be the first thing on Monday before you answer a phone call, check an email before you put out any fires. That’s got to be the first thing that you put your time, effort and energy to. so I think that is really schedule management. It’s priority management of making the first thing, the first thing before all the other things. the second thing I would just add to that is if you’re stuck putting out a lot of fires, then you got to ask why, why isn’t your
putting out the fires if you have a team. And one of the things that I would just say, it’s like I was victim to the mentality of taking a lot of personal pride and being the one to put out fires. And when I realized, ⁓ if they always come to me, they’ll never do it themselves. And so I really have a strict policy now with the team. It’s like, don’t bring me problems. Tell me what problems you fixed. Don’t bring me problems. You tell me what problems you fixed today. I would rather you take action and do it wrong and we’ll fix it on the back end than you coming to me and having me fix it.
So if you’re the one fixing all the fires, you gotta ask yourself, did I put myself in that position? Have I trained my team to have me be the fixer? ⁓ Or do you not have someone, right? So I think that would be the other thing I would add. And then the third quick thing that I would just say to that is this whole concept of being reactive versus proactive. That’s a choice. Lovingly, kindly, that’s a choice. And you just have to have the self-discipline to go back and wait.
It can wait, but proactive is a choice versus being reactive. And that means that you have a plan and you follow the plan back to why I start my Mondays with planning so that I don’t live in a reactive state. That doesn’t mean there’s not unexpected fires that come up I have to get involved with, but that means I have a plan of making sure the main thing is the main thing. And that takes me three hours every Monday.
RORY (46:04)
Yeah,
this
ability to prioritize is the hard work of being an ultra performer. It’s just like, you know, you have to lift weights. If you want to build muscles, you have to learn to block and protect the things that multiply time. If you want to become a multiplier, it’s not easy. It is simple, but you just got to do it. So if this episode has encouraged you and you believe it’s going to help you think about someone in your life that maybe could have a little more peace, share this episode with them and let them know there’s some tactical insights here that can hopefully help them on their
entrepreneurial journey. As always, if you want to talk to us about how our team can help you implement and execute and support your journey and applying all of these things that we teach on the show, go to freebrandcall.com forward slash podcast, freebrandcall.com forward slash podcast. We’ll see you next time on the Wealthy and Well-Known Podcast.
AJ (46:57)
y’all you gotta learn how to prioritize and right now you need to prioritize hitting that subscribe button so you can learn more stuff like this
RORY (47:06)
And if you need a physical energy release, hit the subscribe button right now. You’ll feel much
AJ (47:11)
Of course, it’s science.
WWK Ep 016: YouTube in 2026: How Smart Business Owners Turn Content Into a Business Asset
Sean (00:00)
it this way, competition is highest for low effort content.
Rory (00:04)
Say that again.
Sean (00:04)
competition is highest for low effort content or lazy content.
Rory (00:10)
Did he just
call me lazy? I’m pretty sure. Wait, can we rewind the
today we have one of the most sophisticated advanced YouTube experts in the world and one of my best friends, Sean Cannell. Back on our podcast, we haven’t had him here for a while. We’re gonna talk about why smart business owners should be investing in YouTube to create an asset that really grows their business and what smart YouTube operators are doing in 2026 to build their YouTube channel. Sean has channels with over a million subscribers.
had over 100 million views. He is a multi seven figure entrepreneur and has long been one of the OG original experts on YouTube specifically. He wrote the book YouTube secrets years ago, which has been revised and expanded. We’re glad to have him here in the studio, buddy. Welcome back. ⁓
Sean (01:07)
Rory Vaiden, fired up to be here.
Rory (01:11)
So we’re going to talk about my YouTube woes as we do about my frustrations with YouTube and why we’re not doing it right. And you’re going to fix me. You’re going to you’re going to fix us. ⁓ I want to start with the year 2026. How should business owners mission driven messengers for our community? How should we be thinking differently about YouTube in 2026 than maybe we’ve thought about YouTube in previous years?
Sean (01:40)
I think the big mindset shift is that YouTube is not just a content platform, it’s a business asset that can lift everything else that you are doing. YouTube is the town square of the internet right now, over two billion visitors every single day. Two billion?
Rory (02:04)
That’s globally. Yes, that’s like a fourth. That’s like a fourth of the planet.
Sean (02:08)
Yeah, and that’s not monthly active users. That’s daily consumption from individuals on YouTube. YouTube is the town square of the Internet. And the YouTube CEO recently came out and said that over 50 % of consumption on YouTube is happening on television screens. YouTube is the number one platform consumed in ⁓ U.S. living rooms bigger than Netflix, bigger than Peacock, bigger than Amazon Prime. So YouTube is the town square of the Internet and it’s the everything platform. People are going for sports,
for entertainment, for music, but also for business, for education. So personal brands, coaches, service providers should really be taking YouTube seriously.
Rory (02:49)
Okay, so you say it’s a town square of the internet. Tell me, I wanna talk more about that. So why do you say that? I know we’ve talked over the years since we’ve known each other about, you know, there’s this war for attention and all of these platforms and tech companies are fighting this war. And you seem to think that YouTube has like won the war?
Sean (03:10)
I think I mean if you think about the biggest players, the only platform that has more users is Facebook. Facebook is still huge. But second with users is YouTube. But YouTube is actually bigger in terms of just total distribution and consumption. Everybody’s going there. And this would include YouTube TV. But people are going there for sports. They’re going for news clips. They’re going for a summary of what’s happening in the world. It’s like the center of culture. So whether you’re watching music videos.
or commentary on culture, cultural events, whether you’re going to learn something. It’s like 75 % of people go to YouTube to solve a problem, whether they want to fix their dishwasher or they’re trying to figure out how to increase sales or master marketing or learn the latest news about AI and anything that’s happening in the world will get repurposed to YouTube. You know, if people are watching the Super Bowl, a lot of people watch it for the commercials. But what ends up happening is the
benefit extension of YouTube is the replay. can go back and watch your favorite commercials on YouTube. You can go back and consume really anything you want. It’s where collaborations are happening. Podcasts are blowing up and being distributed across platforms. Netflix has their recent play where they’re going to be getting into the podcasting game, Spotify and all of that. But YouTube’s at the top of the pyramid in terms of distribution of content, consumption of content. And so
established an influential presence on YouTube is one of the most valuable assets a business could have. Not easy to build, but if you have that kind of influence, you’re right at the center of the conversation.
Rory (04:53)
So what does that mean to
think of it as an asset? just like, you know, my YouTube channel isn’t just like, are you saying that basically, my YouTube channel isn’t just a traffic source? It’s like, basically, like intellectual property or anything else that we would build as a company that’s like a core integral part of the business? Is that the shift you’re talking about?
Sean (05:14)
Yeah. And I mean, I think if we were to go back a few decades, ⁓ a prime time spot on television, ⁓ seven or eight PM when you’re going to watch Wheel of Fortune or Jeopardy or that new spot would be the pinnacle of value. Like not only what show could get that spot, but you would have the attention of the world. There’s a lot. There was much fewer options for watching TV and consuming that content. Now, YouTube gives anybody access
to the game to actually have, you know, a show, a brand, a presence. And if you establish your subscriber base, your viewer base, and someone knows you as the go-to source for information, and by the way, in sub pockets, you know, I know you’re a genius when it comes to being able to take like just a small audience and monetize it in a big way. And so to plant your flag on YouTube with what do you want to be known for? What’s your expertise? What are you an authority on? That is
compounding influence.
Now I don’t want to over ⁓ simplify that like it’s not easy to build, but what is it worth to have a brand on YouTube like Cody Sanchez or Alex Hermosy? Those are kind of a one entrepreneur type channels. It’s absolutely prices priceless. I would think that out of all of their social platforms, YouTube is their most valuable asset. That’s why individuals like that will invest six figures or more in multiple team members ⁓ to produce content every month.
and weekly on YouTube. And so it’s a business asset. It’s growing media and out of all the media platforms, YouTube is the leader. So if you want to plant your flag in media, plant your flag in YouTube.
Rory (07:00)
Yeah,
so here’s something that you and I are super aligned on ⁓ the difference between evergreen and viral. It’s also I think the difference between making ⁓ selling something once versus doing like recurring revenue revenue or doing launches versus Yeah, doing recurring and we’ve built our whole business around evergreen, recurring revenue, and not like a launch but just a steady growing snowball. And I’m looking at where we are today as a company going I’m seeing a lot of my friends
in a frantic mode where they’ve been launching this and that kind of course. And like they, they don’t have a sustainable thing in a world of AI. And I’m going, that is a bet that we made a philosophical play that we made about evergreen. And when it comes to YouTube, you’ve always been a fan of it’s not about going viral. It’s about
Evergreen. So explain the difference there for people about what what is that philosophical shift between viral and evergreen? Why do you have that stance? And how should that shape what we’re doing tactically on our channels?
Sean (08:14)
Yeah, there was a study done about the half life of content and ⁓ it revealed that if you post something on Instagram, the half life, it depreciates over about two days that the reach of that post will probably end in two days. And that’s very similar to a Facebook feed or a TikTok feed. Whereas on YouTube, the half life was over 10 days. And that’s just for your average video. The powerful thing about YouTube though, is if you post content that
gets into the algorithm and gets into search and discovery is you can post videos that are watched for weeks months and even years to come ⁓ creators reported established YouTube creators that over half of their monthly views comes from older content
So I like to look at YouTube like a content library, whereas the other social media platforms are content feeds and you have to constantly be putting something in the feed because everyone’s scrolling past past it. A lot of other platforms, people open up their phone and they just see what comes to them. Now there’s massive opportunity on these platforms because you can get reach, you can go viral. One post could get you a lot of exposure exposure and you know, get you business. But I also think of it as the
social media hamster wheel a little bit like you’re constantly posting and
Rory (09:37)
how it feels.
mean, that’s how it feels is just like you’re just constantly just cranking out content of like, feeding this machine. And then it disappears. There’s some ways that we’ve gotten around that. Like basically, the way that we think of it now is is like our Instagram feed is just a it’s just a test environment, where we’re going to post 10 videos. And then we see which one performs and then we’re just going to put money behind the top performer. Yeah. And so that’s a way to force the
the evergreen value of that video, but it’s costing us money. The difference on YouTube is like, it’s kind of like, I think of YouTube as almost like a fine wine, right? It’s like, if you get a great video, it gets better over time and it doesn’t reach the pinnacle. It kind of spikes, comes down, but then it climbs up and then it becomes like truly a long-term asset. That’s kind of what you’re talking about.
Sean (10:30)
It is, and I think
it also is two different mindsets and one requires more patience and that’s YouTube because it could be slower in the beginning, but compounding months and years later, whereas other social platforms give you more immediate ROI. So if we’re chasing dopamine or we’re just chasing immediate business results, many entrepreneurs could feel like, I get better results on Instagram. Like today I saw that the reach of the posts or the views on the post was a few hundred views or a few thousand.
You give that immediate call to action to comment or click a link and so you go great I posted a reel and I got five leads, you know I got 50 people that were interested and maybe I posted a YouTube video and it’s like watching grass grow like the view seems slow not a lot happened But if you post a good YouTube video, that’s well crafted that’s intentionally positioned the that can become an asset where
six months later, that video is continuing to get views, get distribution to the right audience, that YouTube algorithm, the YouTube algorithm is helping you discover and get that video to. Now you go, okay, that video took some energy and I spent some time figuring out the title, the positioning, I put out some quality content, but I’m not even posting content and my older videos in my library are bringing me new business. That’s why I’m obsessed with YouTube.
most leveraged platform for entrepreneurs that use it well.
Rory (12:04)
The other thing
that you’re kind of tapping on there that I want to really double click and deep dive on is we’re big, you know, big, big fans. mean, one of the core things in this book is trust must take place before there’s a transaction. Yeah. And to go, you might get more views on Instagram, but if that’s a 60 second reel, that’s not the same. It’s not an equivalent view as somebody who watches eight minutes
minutes of a YouTube video and certainly not 60 minutes or 40 minutes of a YouTube video. walk us through that dynamic. This is another place where even though you and I kind of live in different universes that overlap, like we have a lot of philosophies that overlap. And I think this is one that I think a lot of people don’t understand about it’s like not all views are created equal a YouTube view is worth way more than an Instagram view. True or false?
Thank
Sean (13:05)
True.
I think what everybody needs to understand is Google’s 7-11-4 rule. And what that…
Rory (13:12)
Never even
heard this before.
Sean (13:14)
Yeah, so this came out a few years ago, but it matters more today than ever before. And what it revealed was that to generate a sale, to generate a conversion, you need seven hours, 11 touch points across four platforms. Seven hours, 11 touch points, four platforms. So that could be seven hours of people consuming your content, seeing you, being aware of you. 11 touch points, it could be all on YouTube or it might be watching a YouTube video. They might see an Instagram reel. They’re reading your emails. They’re engaging with you in
And for platforms could be Instagram YouTube, but it also could be email, text, any other touch point and a book.
Rory (13:55)
a speech
like in our world. It’s like the book, the speech, the email, then they’re on a webinar and then they’re in free call and then and then they’re like, Yeah, I’m in podcast.
Sean (14:00)
Yes, the fee.
So when I think about, I’m thinking about that number seven, seven hours. So how long does that take if they’re consuming just a seven second vertical video or even 30 seconds? And then the other problem is that most of the times when people are on these platforms like Instagram, they’re seeing you but they’re swiping and they see something else. They see a travel video, something humorous, they see a little bit of business content and they’re kind of in this more passive what’s interesting, maybe they follow
Whereas YouTube has an entirely different level of intent. People go to YouTube often times to learn or to lean back a little bit to click play on a video podcast but then they’re you know doing dishes or driving in their car and so they’re there to learn they’re there more serious especially for your community you know we want to learn level up.
⁓ and listen to deeper content, like a video podcast. So that’s priceless attention and you can get to seven hours much more quickly. The author of the book influence also wrote the book pre-suasion. What’s his name? Chaldini. And so.
Rory (15:14)
Right there on
the shelf. Yep.
Sean (15:19)
Yeah, imagine that it’s, you what kind of conversations and how are you demonstrating your authority, your expertise, your personality, your values before a sales conversation even takes place. So YouTube really accelerated.
Rory (15:33)
And
in a world of sales, I would think of that as just like, you know, we talked about buying lines, which is like how far on this path does someone need to go before they buy and it’s like, you to all of this content is doing that work of like, we don’t have to meet in real life because it’s pushing them along the buying line. And certainly those said that’s what the seven hours is basically. Yeah, is what you’re saying YouTube is pushing them further faster. If you get that view there and you can hold them, like you’re pushing them towards a sale faster.
Sean (16:01)
Yeah, and there was a deep study done by the software platform called one out of 10. It’s a YouTube optimization software. One out of 10 means ⁓ like your top performing video out of your last 10 uploads on YouTube. They studied 52,000 channels and they studied all these different metrics, including title length, thumbnail colors. One of the things they studied was video length. And in 2026, they found that videos outperform in terms of
in two categories. If it’s long form videos, one was between 15 and 30 minutes. That’s a good range of a video length. As soon as you cross 30, they call this the dead zone between 30 and 60. Not that that’s bad, but it’s kind of like, it’s not, you know, under 30.
Rory (16:49)
It’s
like a point of diminishing returns.
Sean (16:51)
Yeah,
under 30 is like, yeah, I could do that on my lunch break. I could, you know, catch that in between. You know, I don’t know if I have time to watch a 45 minute thing. I might have to watch that in multiple parts. And so 15 to 30 minutes was outperformed by like 12 % in views. And then the other one was ultra long. It started to rise again after an hour and at 90 minutes or even two hours video started to outperform as well. And this has been established for a long time with
kind of, you know, the Joe Rogan podcast and now diary of a CEO and all of these ultra long podcast conversations that are taking 90 minutes, two hours. And I think one of the reasons those ultra long videos are working really well on YouTube is because if someone sits down and is interested or turns it on passively, you’re just getting so much watch time that the YouTube algorithm rewards that with reach because they want time on platform. They want people dwelling on the platform. But the big idea here,
is think about how much trust can compound when someone is interested in a topic, they click on that conversation and they spend 90 minutes, two hours, two and a half hours, which people are doing, especially if that’s what they’re interested in. They wanna go deep, they wanna have an expanded conversation on that. And just one two hour episode and you’re a third of the way to your seven hours of someone really spending significant time with you.
Rory (18:16)
this this this is something I think that mission driven messengers and experts need to understand one person watching an hour long podcast or like a video podcast or or reading a book in our case that would be like four hours is worth way more than 1000 people or even 5000 people watching a 60 second reel. Yep. And I think that’s what
Sean (18:35)
Yeah.
Rory (18:46)
people don’t understand they’re chasing the like the vanity of I want 5000 views. And they’re trading that for not understanding that one person who goes deep with me is more valuable. And that’s what you know, when you say we’re geniuses at making money from a small audience. It’s because it’s exactly that it’s like we have a very specific audience. But man, if they’re an expert of any like a speaker author coach,
they get into our universe and they just go, my gosh, we are there are people. And so we build a lot of trust quickly, but we don’t reach millions and millions and millions of people. And I think that’s the big mental switch that a lot of expert specific creators need to really think about and understand. So
Sean (19:33)
Agree.
Rory (19:35)
Now let me complain about YouTube. so so here’s the thing that people always said, just be consistent. Just be consistent. Just keep pushing. You you say just push record, just push record, right? And I’m a huge, huge fan of it. We’ve been pushing record. And we’ve been publishing every week on YouTube for seven years. We’ve got 9000 subscribers. Now I’ll be the first to admit we’ve not we’ve not prioritized it as the most important thing in our business. It’s
pretty, it’s been pretty low on the list. So there’s no doubt that that is, you know, your results reflect your effort to some extent. But at the same time, I’m going, we’ve been putting videos up for seven years. We’ve never had one pop off ever on YouTube, with the exception of my TED talk, which went, you know, massively viral, but that was on their channel, not on our channel. Right? ⁓
Now, I’ve had massive success being on podcasts like yours and like Ed Myled and Lewis and other Cody Sanchez, these other shows that I’ve been on. I was on Cody Sanchez podcast. She’s a client of ours. And so I think it was like a year ago, we were on a show. We had like four sales last week from her.
from a video that was published a year ago to what you’re saying. So I’ve had lots of success with them. So clearly they’re doing things that we’re not doing right. But the idea that you can just keep, you know, just keep going, just keep consistent.
it kind of at least feels to me in a discouraging way like that’s not really the truth. And in some ways you go, well, we still have 9000 subscribers. I mean, that’s not nothing. But it’s not, you know, when I look at the return on investment for the time that we have put in, and it’s hard to measure because it’s like, well, how many of our sales have come from people who, you know, of those 9000 who sat and watched several hours of video? I don’t know, like it’s a little bit tough. But so anyways, what do you say to some
somebody who’s like has been publishing and has been doing it is not not getting the not seeing the results yet.
Sean (21:43)
Yeah, well, I think, especially in 2026, we have to face the brutal reality of success on YouTube, and it’s this. 20 million videos are uploaded to YouTube every single day.
Rory (21:56)
20 million a day, but there’s 2 billion people every day going there. Yeah. But of course, Mr. Beast takes like half of that.
Sean (22:04)
And
so when I hear 20 million videos uploaded every single day, that’s a big pool to try to crack through the noise and stand out. I think the key though is you just got to get into the top 10 % of content.
You know, I heard an old Brian Tracy, the sales legend and you know, leadership ⁓ quote that said, you know, if you’re in the top 10 % of salespeople, you’ll get 80 % of the results. And if you’re in the top 2%, you’ll get, ⁓ you know, disproportionate returns. So put it this way, competition is highest for low effort content.
Rory (22:42)
Say that again.
Sean (22:43)
competition is highest for low effort content or lazy content. Now, I’m not saying that anybody who’s putting effort towards YouTube is being lazy, but those that are rising.
Rory (22:55)
Did he just
call me lazy? I’m pretty sure. Wait, can we rewind the tape? Did you just call me lazy?
Sean (23:01)
⁓
If you compare your average entrepreneur that’s posting on YouTube to those at an elite level, your average entrepreneur is maybe thinking about sitting down to have a podcast, maybe not doing a ton of preparation. They haven’t planned a real strong angle or title at the beginning. The thumbnail is maybe just a little bit of outdated. It’s a little outdated. It’s not really best practice. Those micro details aren’t really thought about. The hook, the opening, the first not
just three seconds, but what are the first 30 seconds? What is the entire opening of the video? How’s the video structured is, ⁓ has the content been edited at all to trim the fluff? Your average entrepreneur is not doing any of that, anything like that. They might just be, you know, they’re experts. They’ve got good content, but they are also maybe invested. very busy. So they spend, if any prep time, they spend five minutes thinking about, well, what’s the title? How am I going to position this?
Well, what are the elite doing? The elite are sitting down and they’re spending 10x more time on video packaging. So if you’re average entrepreneur
Rory (24:10)
Another word for that could be planning.
Sean (24:12)
planning, but they’re sitting down and your average entrepreneur didn’t even think about the title ahead of time, you know, isn’t putting a lot of energy in the thumbnail and then then into the topic itself. But the elite are sitting down and saying, okay, what actual topics are hot right now? What are the highest pain points that my audience has and how could I position that? What are even some of the best practices that are happening? One of the main practices of
elite YouTube creators is studying outliers.
is looking at channels in your niche and in your topic or even just adjacent. It doesn’t have to even be setting other business creators. You’re looking at formats. For example, one of the formats that is known to go really viral is I tried Andrew Huberman’s morning routine for 30 days. I tried X for a week. I tried Facebook ads. I tried chat GPT ads because they’re adding an ad product that you can now do pay
advertising inside of chat gbt. ⁓ I tried chat gbt advertising for seven days. Parenthesis shocking results. So now now we’re at a strategic topic level maybe tapping into the now with chat gbt. You’re still tapping into a paid ads thing you maybe want to attract others in terms of marketing. That’s topic research. Then you’re thinking about video formats you’re thinking about the title and then that that right there is going to inform the structure of the content and how it’s
Positioned and it’s gonna take more energy to where you maybe came up with that concept You didn’t just sit down and record a podcast and riff on something you Reverse engineered the idea and then did an experiment for seven days and then turn that experiment into a video and then that video got 55,000 views a hundred and sixty seven thousand views Which would eclipse the entire view count of a lot of people’s channels that start on YouTube because they spent that much more time
on the topic, the title, the thumbnail, essentially the concept, the energy invested in the content itself. Now, here’s the thing, listening to that, many people might count themselves out and say, well, I mean, yeah, I don’t have time to do that kind of work or effort on YouTube.
Rory (26:34)
particularly
when you say that inside of the same breath as saying YouTubers a long term play. It’s a long term asset. It’s not something that you put you do. You sit down today, you do this for a thumbnail and tomorrow a bunch of money shows up. That to me, that’s the conflict of like the entrepreneurs going, you know, the analogy we always use as we say, you’re it’s like you’re being chased by a bear to create revenue. Like you have to just it’s like I have to have enough revenue to pay the people and like keep keep the lights on around here. So
So I have to balance, I have to balance planting seeds while being chased by a bear. YouTube to me feels more like seeds that you’re planting that will one day grow up and be, you know, provide a layer of protection from the bear. like right now it’s just a seed and I’m like running around being chased by the bear. So how do you afford the time and the money to do that?
Sean (27:30)
I mean, think there’s entrepreneurship always comes down to ⁓ one of two things. You either have time or you have money. Like when you’re just starting out, you might not have money, but you also, you’re a lot more lean, lower overhead. So what can you invest in it? Sweat equity. So you invest time in YouTube to say, okay, I maybe I still have my core business. Maybe I’m on sales calls all day and I have fulfillment, but if I want to invest in this long-term play, I’m building up my YouTube channel with sweat equity. But a lot of individuals listening to this,
they have money. So the mindset shift would be, ⁓ I heard Dan Sullivan say something once that if you have money and you have a problem, you don’t have a problem. And so it’s making the decision.
Rory (28:14)
You have
enough money to solve a problem, you don’t have a problem.
Sean (28:17)
You don’t have a problem.
So so then you know, you’re asking yourself who and not how I want to invest in YouTube who which would be a strategic hire or working with an agency or an individual that you could bolt onto your business to help you do the heavy lifting of YouTube invest those dollars and They could sit down. They’re doing that packaging for you. They’re working
Rory (28:42)
with
title, topic, thumbnail.
Sean (28:44)
Yeah, they’d mind your genius mind your topics. They’re aware of the broader YouTube culture. They’re aware of the research tools you work with them. They’re helping you do all of the above and still allowing you to sit down and just do your genius. But they’re maybe going to restructure things outline, you know, I’d even say scripting, you know, the greatest YouTube videos again are spending just a lot more time period and planning that out and scripting or outlining the content. Again, that sounds like a lot of work, but if anything,
could just be structure like okay talk to me you know deliver what’s what’s some of your core genius what are your core frameworks what are some of you okay we’re do this here’s how we want to outline this let’s work on the hook of the video let’s think about how this thing is gonna be structured
Rory (29:28)
Which
by the way, just to like…
go meta on people, you and I did this, like you’re I’m going to be on your show right after this. And you were like, Okay, what’s what’s what’s the what’s the title of this episode going to be? Yeah, it was actually it was it was kind of like, what’s the topic? Like, what’s a meaty topic we could do? And then it was, okay, what sexy title? Could we come up with that you can see on a thumbnail? And then it’s like, okay, then how do we open this? How how do we open it, you know, with the hook? And then what’s the talking
points that we’re going to go through. So you’re actually practicing what you.
Sean (30:03)
And that would be, mean us working together for these episodes we’re gonna shoot together was about a 30 minute conversation. A 30 minute conversation with somebody that has that expertise. And that would be tapping into the famous who not how framework. Like who could you work with? And you know for listeners they could jump right in and if they just started talking to chat GBT a little bit ⁓ on a basic level, that’s gonna get you a lot further than you would normally. Like okay here’s what I wanna talk about, thing one. So here’s some of the stuff I normally teach, here’s what I
talk about your I’m assuming open up chat GBT you know start doing a voice prompt talking to you a little bit about it but then you could follow up with these prompts okay what how could I package or position this and here is one of the most powerful YouTube principles that most don’t understand that you want to ask yourself how can I go more broad appeal how can I raise
That doesn’t mean diluting the topic too much, but you want to raise the broad appeal as high as possible. So we’re going to do this episode on the answer was copywriting. The thing you wanted to teach was like copywriting structure for sales. We’re having this conversation on the phone. go, that’s amazing. But a title like, you know, use this copywriting framework to make your next video more powerful, horrible title. Super.
Rory (31:26)
narrow
because people go I’m not a copywriter, this video doesn’t apply to me even though we go no these principles apply to anyone trying to generate revenue. So we have to take the topic and we have to round it out to have a broader appeal.
Sean (31:38)
We
raise it up to go, yeah, how can I go more broad appeal? Now, if we take a principle from the most viral YouTubers, the question they ask is how can this topic in video apply to at least 80 % of the population? That’s really broad. Now, I don’t suggest business owners typically do that, but it’s a really good principle to understand.
Rory (32:05)
It’s like a workout
to do like a way to exercise your brain in that direction.
Sean (32:09)
To
push it up broad appeal. So if you were to make a video just for ⁓ women, now you’re 50 % of the population. But now you’re saying, okay, how do I go higher than that? That’s why the most broad topics that could be like relationships or food or something, everybody eats food.
Rory (32:25)
always
it’s it’s money, sex, politics, religion, food, relation. mean, those are those are every major podcast or show. It’s like those are they’re hitting on those because they’re the most universal topic.
Sean (32:39)
Yeah, so push it up. Now, if we then get into your niche, you’re still asking how can I go up a little bit to the known felt needs and pain points and ambitions of my target audience?
Rory (32:50)
because when we do
this, we’re risking violating what we were talking about earlier, which is we’re going for viral. But now we’re risking not building as deep of trust, we’re going for width. And we’re comp, it’s like a balance between width and depth. And we have to, we, we kind of want to have more width in the title and the topic. But then once you get into the content, that’s where you kind of go a little bit deeper and speak. If you’re an expert,
Sean (32:56)
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
Yeah, to your audience. a
principle in communication I learned was, you know, you want to answer the questions people are asking. What question are people asking? Like, and then what question should they ask? Or so in this case, the answer was copywriting and a sales framework.
Rory (33:40)
what they should
be asking. That’s what they are asking. They don’t know that’s what they need. They think they need something else.
Sean (33:46)
And so where I pushed it up would be, ⁓ you know, one of the titles I think that we ultimately came up with was essentially money. How can we raise it up to money? Like, ⁓ you know, this framework will make you more money on YouTube or use this framework and then push it up even more like. ⁓
Rory (34:06)
Like the best video that we’ve done together of me on your show was ⁓ it’s all about the title was like something like how to how small creators are making millions of dollars.
Sean (34:15)
So the copywriting video we’re gonna shoot together, the title I came up with was The Psychology Behind Why Some Videos Make Money. And so, an alternative would be why some videos make money and others don’t, or the difference between videos that make money and those that never will.
Rory (34:32)
There
it is. But basically you’re going the answer is copywriting. But but the question we should be asking is how do we state the question that more people pay attention to? Which then becomes the title.
Sean (34:43)
And then what’s fascinating, which is the time. Yeah,
if you were to put even like sales professionals or really call out a niche in a title and there’s a time and place to do that, I’m not suggesting those should never be uploads, but. ⁓
anyone that’s interested in YouTube, even so this is for our podcast where we want to talk to the creator or DIY creator as well as the business owner. But if we actually put the word business in the title, it will kill the click through rate because somebody will opt out of clicking on the video because ⁓ I’m not a business owner. I don’t know if I resonate with that as much, but everybody has got money problems where they want to learn about money and they want more views or more money. we’re pushing it up. But if I’m, then you have to ask yourself, okay, it’s my target audience.
that do business owners want to know the psychology behind why some videos make money and others don’t and do creators want to know that is what they both do. So you actually have the opportunity to get more reach, but also reach your target audience at the same time. So that’s the tension to manage is how do I raise the broad appeal, still make it a sharp title with fierce clarity and ⁓
And then in the video itself, articulate. So I will articulate in that video, like, listen, if you’re actually a YouTuber that wants to earn more and really go to a mastery level on YouTube, you’re going to love this conversation. And this is also great for business owners that want to generate leads and sales. We start broad appeal, kind of qualify in there. And then that’s the difference between a video that could get 22,000 views or 200,000 views or one that stays stuck at 2000 views because of this whole packaging.
conversation.
Rory (36:24)
Yeah, so by the way, on that this is a good spot to mention. So ⁓ on some of those tactics, we’ve got ⁓ if you go to free brand training.com slash YouTube, people can watch a class from you that’s a little more into like the weeds of the tactics on this right.
Yeah, so ⁓ go check out freebrandtraining.com forward slash YouTube if you want, you know, to get more into the tactics here. so basically, high level though, we’re talking about topic, title, thumbnail. Those are the main and I think part of what part of the big insight that I’m having is going it’s not
Sean (36:55)
Yes.
Rory (37:07)
as much about the quality of the content today. It’s more about the attraction of the wrapper of like the positioning. that’s where the over indexing work comes from spending time thinking about
It’s the same candy bar. It’s got to be a quality candy bar, but we have to spend more time on the wrapper than the candy bar itself. That’s where the over indexing result comes from today on YouTube.
Sean (37:39)
think that’s one. And then I think the other thing to consider is, you know, YouTube is two things. The most viral videos to have viral videos on YouTube. You want to understand two big things. YouTube is psychology and trends at the highest level. It’s human psychology and trends.
What’s going on in the minds of people? What are they thinking about? What are they worried about? And also what’s trending? There’s a reason why AI content or AI in the title is getting so many views right now on YouTube because everyone’s worried about it. It’s the trend. Everybody’s thinking about it and it also applies to everything. So if it’s coming into our daily life, should we be adopting this in our, ⁓
service provider business. How could we be adopting it? You could say the dark side of AI that will get a lot of views. How to make extra money that will get a lot of views. ⁓ It’s replacing employees and you’re also hitting hot buttons. It’s replacing people. Should it be now debates happening in the common?
Rory (38:38)
⁓
You have emotion and you have trending topic that AI is hitting on those two things and that’s a thing. This reminds me of a great lesson that I learned from Tom Hanks. He’s not a friend of mine, but I heard him say this. He actually said this to a friend of mine and he said, the key to writing a movie that’s a hit is you have to enter into the nation’s conscience.
So all you have to do is ask yourself, what is the nation thinking about talking about? And basically, that’s like the hot that’s like the highway. And then you have to ask yourself, how does my topic come in and just catch that sort of catch that wave? And that’s exactly what you’re talking about in terms of how do you succeed in YouTube in 2026?
Sean (39:26)
Yeah. So anybody watching this right now could take the phone mount that’s on their car dashboard, put their phone up there where normally they’re viewing their GPS, turn it horizontal at themself, turn the camera on and sit in your car, which is a great audio booth by the way. And maybe, you know, somebody’s late for a meeting or something. You got 20 minutes. And if you sit down and you think about what’s happening in the national ⁓ consciousness, what are people thinking about, worried about, and you have some stuff to riff on. Maybe you plan your ideas out a little bit.
of planning, like one of our 3P frameworks is plan, ⁓ press record and then post. That’s the most simple thing. Plan first, press record and then post. So I might plan on a legal pad or my tablet if I was sitting in my car and be like,
Man, the phone calls I’ve been getting, the conversation, people, they’re worried about AI, they’re worried about it disrupting jobs. I have a few thoughts. I’ve heard a couple things that have been happening. Okay, how could I talk about that? You’re planning a little bit. Then just press record and say, okay, you might be thinking about this, this is a conversation we’ve been having. And then you post that video and with no editing and just sitting in your car.
and just sharing from the heart and maybe sharing some of your wisdom, your perspective, your thoughts. In some cases, probably why you’re not.
Rory (40:43)
while you’re ⁓
Sean (40:47)
while we’re parked
and, we’ve all seen this. We’ve seen basic low production talking head videos on YouTube that get 55,000 views or 500,000 views. And what become, what’s the, you know, difference between that video and a video that’s in a fancy podcast studio with all kinds of cameras and all kinds of production and people get frustrated because sometimes they sit down. They got, I got the fancy studio, but I’m not getting the views that missing element right there can be the timing, the topic and tapping into
trends and what sometimes a mental barrier to that for business owners is like, well, I don’t want to just cover trending videos. Like is that trending, you know, tick tock?
Rory (41:27)
Well, so
I was gonna I want to ask you about this. I need you to coach me on the limiting belief that I have I know I’m aware that I have this and I have a hard time letting go of it because I actually struggle with this is I don’t want to be the pandering
vanity seeking person and and this is why this is one reason I never post when people die. I have a emotional struggle where you know, it’s like Kobe Bryant just died and everyone and it’s like I know that’s gonna get tons of views. I know that’s gonna get tons of engagement. I feel like it’s cheap.
and inauthentic, even if it is authentic. It’s like, even if you were the biggest Kobe Bryant fan in the world, right? And so it’s like, every time a celebrity dies, people post about it. And I’m like, is that’s what I think of when I think of?
the trend AI is that way right now we’re using AI in our business I guarantee we are implementing AI more than almost every person on YouTube is talking about it. We’ve built 40 bots for our community like you’re talking about the topics we have bots that just analyze the and it just gives it to them and all of their brand memory is stored if they’re using our bots you don’t have to give the context it already has all of your context it knows your model and who you’re going after. So we have bots that do that but I have this problem with going
yeah, I’m just gonna go on every day and be like, here’s what happened in the world of AI for personal brands. I know that would perform. I struggle doing it because I don’t know, I guess I just have like a distaste for like the amateurness of it. And yet I also am frustrated with going, all of these people are willing to do it and they’re just riding the wave and they’re just and they’re taking off. It’s why I got out of ⁓ traditional radio. I used to be on traditional radio and that’s all they wanted to talk about. Here’s the top news.
topics today. And I’m like, why are we talking about this? Because everyone’s talking about it. I’m like, I don’t care about any of this stuff. It’s actually why I got into podcasting because I was like, I want to talk about more meaningful things. So anyways, coach me through that. How do I reconcile that?
Sean (43:39)
To me it sounds like you just coached yourself. I think that that limiting belief, you’re self-aware enough to understand that. I mean, all I could add to it is a mission-driven messenger.
without compromising ethics is willing to do anything to reach as many people as possible. It’s like the apostle Paul said, I’ll become all things to all people in order that I might win some for Christ. So it’s a willingness to say what’s going to be most effective. And then it’s also a letting go of any fear of other people’s opinions or any ⁓ fear of judgment and fear of somebody calling you authentic. Only you would know the truth to that. But what I can say in the seat of the conversation,
we had before you turn on the podcast. I think you do care about AI. If we isolate around AI, you do care about AI. You are doing it. It couldn’t be more authentic. It’s actually probably more important that people hear your voice on the matter than many people who are just chasing trends at a shallow level. So if you resolve any kind of internal cognitive dissonance or whatnot, and maybe realize like it’s re embracing the principle, because I think the principle of what you did on radio is pretty important. That is what gets the most views.
on YouTube. So a willingness to do what it takes. then if you have ethical lines, you’re like, I’m not I’m not going to do that because I don’t feel that that’s not authentic to me. But when it is authentic, I think you have to press past any resistance you have because you go, no, I do care about that. I’m not going to post about every person when they pass away. But I really care about this. I have something to say in this moment. You know, when Charlie Kirk was assassinated, ⁓ I don’t talk about a lot of stuff, but I ended up doing an Instagram
post about it and ended up getting 1.7 million views.
By the way, could put somebody could sit here and you were just trying to get views. No, I wasn’t. I actually had some I didn’t post immediately. I think I posted two days later, three days later. I’ve been processing it. It was very heavy. I’ve been thinking I’ve been listening to all the conversation. also realized, man, you know, this could be very polarizing. I don’t usually get political, but I felt it. That’s why I posted it. I felt it. I processed it. And then I ended up doing an Instagram carousel. I lost 3000 followers.
when I did the post, I ended up gaining 7000 followers when I did the post and it wasn’t about that. Now I’m also a good marketer so I understand what could happen but I also I didn’t know that that would happen and I actually thought that it might be more of if you will a net negative but here’s the thing above all of that was conviction above all of that was authentic conviction.
feeling like I had something to actually say and I don’t jump on most things. And some people said, well, if you’re gonna post about this, also, if you’re gonna talk about this, you have to talk about this other stuff too. People are always gonna bring you your judgment. Again, if we’re reverse engineering back from what does it take to actually get views and reach and have impact on YouTube, I think you have to be willing to do what it takes. Is. Yeah.
Rory (46:42)
And you’re saying trends
essential. It’s one of the essential ingredients to performing on YouTube.
Sean (46:49)
And most things are not problems to be solved, they’re tensions to be managed.
So it’s like, think trying to have a binary answer to that question, like I’m just not going to do trends because it could be, you know, misperceived or I personally don’t love it. That would be more of like black and white thinking as opposed to tensions to be managed. Am I just jumping on this? And then I think willing to be mistakes, willing to make mistakes, willing to try something, willing to, ⁓ you know, one week be doing it and you might look back and, and I think we have to get over that.
here.
Maybe criticism comes your way after you do jump on a trend and talk about something. They’re like, you know, Rory, I know you, I don’t think that post hit and you’re my, you know, I didn’t feel authentic. felt like you’re like, as I reflect, maybe that’s true. That’s a willingness to take a risk and willingness to, put yourself out there. But I know your community too is very purpose-driven, you know, ethics driven. So those, these are like internal frameworks to be processing what to post next. But I know we’re isolating on AI and I’m not saying AI is the only choice.
trend. No, just talk. But it’s a good case study. Yeah. Because literally the conversation we had before we pressed record was fascinating to me about what you guys are doing, how you’re doing it. And what again, what we know is that AI is trending. The avoidance of talking about something you’re authentically doing, you’re doing at a world class level that could help people, I think is a mistake. I think. And then realizing that with in the sea of sameness, whether it’s not that you can’t do like evergreen topics or old
school titles, how to get leads in your business using Facebook. There there’s just been so much of that. And that’s to step into a world of YouTube where you get views today. I think you have to be willing to talk about the now. Neil Patel, the, you know, entrepreneur and SEO expert, like really good at SEO. Smart.
Rory (48:49)
We’ve had him on the show. He’s so good. Super.
Sean (48:52)
And he made a quote, which a lot of good communicators will sometimes speak in absolutes, even though the absolute isn’t always true. But he made the absolute statement that the only thing working on social media right now is new. The only thing working on social media right now, including YouTube, is new. The good news about why YouTube will never be saturated, it’ll never be crowded, neither were social media is because new things are always happening.
We coach a lot of real estate agents and they’re like, but there’s so many other agents. Like there’s just so much competition. So other people doing it. Well, number one, not really a national association of realtors say that only 9 % of agents are posting listing videos. So it’s not as much as you think. But I think number two is there’s always something new happen happening. Rates are always changing. New home buyer incentives are always happening. ⁓ politicians are always switching. There’s always.
Rory (49:51)
Even though news stands for notable events weather and sports as you know that that’s where news comes from But really the way I think of news is it’s it’s new. It’s what’s new and I think you know, I think of it as there’s better There’s different and there’s new yeah and right right now and I think always it’s like new actually outperforms new outperforms better Mm-hmm, which is frustrating, but I think that is how it is but if you can
Sean (49:55)
That’s
Rory (50:20)
connect your better take on what is new. You know, it’s selling people what they want, giving them what they need. It’s what the apostle Paul said. I mean, it’s our five title tests of like, you know, the I want blank test. It’s part of just the tension, I think, to be managed.
Sean (50:38)
I think we’re hitting on something that’s so powerful in this conversation, and that’s this. I actually think it’s lot of the limiting beliefs and internal frameworks that hold most back.
Rory (50:47)
Amen.
Sean (50:48)
because
the fear of just sitting in your car and hitting record to talk about today, what is new is why 99 out of a hundred professionals, they just don’t do it. Oh, they kind of overthink it. need to prepare more. need to. So you hesitate when actually content that’s planned out a little bit, press record and then publish that thing is on a new topic with a title that jumps into the conversation has a
chance from taking your obscure channel that just has never gotten any reached. All of a sudden you got 55,000 views and you’re now getting awareness. I never knew about you before. I never discovered you before. What’s fascinating is I’m not saying that has to be a hundred percent of your content, but we’re asking how do you even jump into the conversation or get discovered in the first place? And then people start to explore your library and start to see the depth of your content. So the internal beliefs of, you know,
Rory (51:44)
Otherwise
you’re the world’s best kept secret, which is like a huge part of our audience of just like, because just you have amazing stuff. Nobody knows you’re there.
Sean (51:54)
Yes.
And so why do we sit in the car? Oh, well, I don’t know if I’m ready to talk about this or I might get a little bit pushback, a little bit of pushback. Or is this too political or will? And, I don’t know if I should talk about AI because some people are going to say, but what about the water consumption and what about if the machines, you know, kill us later? And there’s a million excuses. Am I ready to talk about this? What if I stumble over my words? Well, you know, there’s a million what ifs and those are those internal beliefs. And, you know, well, am I just jumping on a trend? Somebody else already did it.
a million reasons and so what ends up happening analysis paralysis and then we don’t press record so I think having a conviction based approach and having hopefully this conversation being beneficial to individuals like you know punching fear in the face and then pressing record
Rory (52:43)
Yeah, yeah, well, there you go, friends. Sean Cannell, brilliant, profound, inspiring.
Go to freebrandtraining.com forward slash YouTube, check out his free training if you wanna dive deeper on the tactics of YouTube. ⁓ I love this conversation. I do believe that all of this is a huge asset that automates trust at scale, right? That’s what we’re trying to do is automate trust at scale. There may be no better tool on the planet than YouTube. It’s certainly one of the top ones. It’s a systematic, there’s a system you can follow to make this happen. So make sure you do that. Share this episode with somebody who you know
should be crushing it on YouTube and who wants to do better on YouTube, rate this podcast if you haven’t, we would love to hear your comments and come back next time. We’ll catch you on the wealthy and well-known podcast.
WWK Ep 015: Follower Rich, Dollar Broke? The 4-Step Trust Funnel That Actually Converts
WATCH THE INTERVIEW LISTEN TO THE EPISODE BELOW Most people assume more followers means more revenue. But the real gap is not attention. It is trust. In this episode of The Wealthy and Well-Known Podcast, Rory Vaden and AJ Vaden break down why “big platform” does not automatically equal “big business,” and what to do […]
Ep 014: Why You’re Losing (It’s Not a Strategy Problem)
Rory (00:00)
they’re losing and they assign that loss to, maybe this isn’t the right thing for me or maybe I’m just not smart enough or I’m just not good enough or I don’t have enough time or I don’t have enough team. And it’s like, no, you’re just an amateur playing among professionals and you’re getting beat because they’re more committed. I mean, I not be making friends there, but that’s what I think the truth
Your brain lies to you. Your brain is one of the things that holds you back from building a great personal brand. And what we’re talking about today on this episode is what are the lies and the limiting beliefs that experts and entrepreneurs have that prevent them from building a truly successful personal brand. I’m here, I’m Rory Vaden, co-founder of Brand Builders Group, joined by my wife and business partner, AJ Vaden. Let’s go.
AJ (00:52)
Yeah, like one of the things I wanna make sure we nuance is that you said, lies that your brain believes that prevent you from building your personal brand or business. Sure. Right? And so I just wanna make sure as we’re talking about this, that it’s not just a personal brand. Like these things impact your business, impact sales, impacts relationships, impacts all the things. So we’ll take it through the lens of personal brand, IE business.
Rory (01:18)
I mean, when I even say the term personal brand, I almost think of a personal brand as just a marketing engine for the business, right, for most of the people.
AJ (01:30)
I know that’s what you
think. huh. But like it’s good for everyone who’s listening or watching to make sure that you know that we have that context in that filter as we talk about all of this.
Rory (01:41)
Yeah, so,
so let’s dive in. I want to I want to ask you let’s have a conversation about what do you think based on our own experience, our hundreds of clients, and just what we kind of observe and what our data tells us is happening. What do you think are some of the biggest limiting beliefs that people think about their personal brand or their business that is really holding them back? It’s not really true.
AJ (02:08)
Yeah. And so I want to use a large spectrum of what I have noticed to be true in the world. And this isn’t just from working with, you know, hundreds of clients. This goes all the way back to childhood, to school, to parenting, to previous ⁓ employment. And literally just this week, I’m talking about my eight year old Jasper this week, we were talking about doing schoolwork. Why do I have to do that? I’ve already done it.
I’m like, you’ve done it one time. He goes, yeah, but I’ve already done it. Why do I have to do it again? Then, let’s all take it back to our school days. How many times did we say, why do I have to do this again? I already know how to do this. I’ve already done it. I already know this. ⁓ And then you think about professional athletes. Think about how many times they have to swing a bat. How many times they have to throw a ball? How many times they have to run the exact same route?
And I think that we lack a little bit of some of that in business when you parallel it to sports.
Rory (03:15)
So
you’re saying the lie that people believe or the limiting belief they have is I shouldn’t have to keep doing this. I’ve already I already know how to do this. Why should I have to keep
AJ (03:26)
I think people get bored with monotony.
We have a constant shiny object syndrome of there must be a better way. This is too easy. This is too simple. There must be a way for me to get faster other than just practicing. There must be a way for me to not have to do it over and over again. And I think that we just naturally as humans get bored with doing the same thing over and over again. And we want to keep changing it up when the truth is the more you do something, the better you get at it.
and the easier it becomes. And I think the lie we believe is that it can’t be that easy. It can’t be that simple. When we think about social media, it can’t be as simple as just post something every day. It can’t be as simple as just put some money behind it. Like there’s got to be some complex formula that I just don’t know. There’s got to be some secret. And I think we think that about sales. I think we think that about marketing. I think we think that about relationships. And I think about often, like as a parent, how many times I’m like, I know you did it.
We’re just gonna do it again and again and again and again until it’s second nature. But somewhere in adulthood, we forget the power of consistency, the power of doing the small thing over and over and over again. And we believe the lie that it’s that easy.
Rory (04:42)
It reminds me of it’s this is I think the difference between amateurs and professionals, right? I’ve heard it said that amateurs practice until they get it right. Professionals practice until they cannot get it wrong. And that really is true. Like the example that you’re using of sports, it’s like, okay, yeah, I can shoot a three pointer and make it once but Steph Curry does it so many times that it’s almost impossible for him to miss. And that is what it takes
AJ (05:07)
every time.
Rory (05:12)
to build a personal brand. It’s like you have to you have to be brilliant at the basics. You have to master the fundamentals of content creation, lead generation, sales, follow up, delivering, over delivering and renewing. If you get those fundamentals right, it’s like there is nothing else.
AJ (05:31)
think a lot of that is we believe a lie that there’s some complex formula, some hidden secret, something that we don’t know yet. And so instead of doing the thing that we do know, we try all these new things and we keep trying all these new things, meaning we never do it enough to become really sophisticated at it. And I think we see that building your business, building your brand, social media, marketing, the list goes on and on. There’s just some truth in the fun
fundamentals and I think there’s some timeless truths that it doesn’t matter what new technology is out there, the emergence of AI, all the new things. There’s just some basic truths in sales and marketing and business that are timeless and it doesn’t really matter anything that new that comes along. It’s just a new medium to do the same old thing.
Rory (06:24)
way.
Totally. All right. The second limiting belief that I think people have about building their personal brand in their business is they think I’m not good enough to do this. They look at other people. They want to do it. They want to be influential. They want to speak on the stages. They want to have people reading their books or watching their shows. They want that. But deep down, they actually struggle with believing they’re not good enough. I think, you know, the classic word for this is imposter syndrome.
And even though they may have spent 10 or 15 or 20 years becoming an expert at their craft, they still somehow struggle with like, I don’t know that I deserve to be heard by the world or I don’t know that I’m smart enough or good enough to be heard, you know, by the rest of the world. So that that’s what I think is one of the other most common limiting beliefs in our community or the people we work with.
AJ (07:22)
with. Like
how do you see that showing up? Because I think there’s a lot of different byproducts of that. But what I think this would be good of you know, for all of you who are listening up going like, well, is that me? I don’t know. So what are some of the symptoms, some of the signs that show up when this is the root? So
Rory (07:40)
So one of the symptoms that people don’t talk a lot about but that since you asked me directly I think is really, really indicative of this is there a dabbler.
they dabble in things and it kind of comes back to what we were talking about a little bit before. They’ll dabble like, yeah, maybe I’ll learn a little bit about this or maybe I’ll start a podcast for a little bit or maybe like I’ll start writing a speech or I’ll start writing a book or I’ll start writing a blog or two or you know, I’ll join a membership for like a couple months or even a year but like they’re dabbling and because they don’t
really believe it. And if they if they really believed it was possible, they would commit to doing whatever it took to make it happen. And the and the truth is, it’s not that they’re not qualified to do it is that they’re not committed enough ⁓ to do the work it takes to make it happen. And so somebody struggling with imposter syndrome is a dabbler. And they’re competing against committed ultra performers.
and they’re losing and they assign that loss to, maybe this isn’t the right thing for me or maybe I’m just not smart enough or I’m just not good enough or I don’t have enough time or I don’t have enough team. And it’s like, no, you’re just an amateur playing among professionals and you’re getting beat because they’re more committed. I mean, I not be making friends there, but that’s what I think the truth is.
AJ (09:11)
I don’t disagree with that. I was just curious. Well, I think, you know, kind of on that same lines, you could categorize this as a another lie, a separate lie, but I think it falls within this category. So I’m going to bring it up because it’s in the same vein as I think one of the reasons people ⁓
Really, I don’t know if the word dabbler is the one I would use, but I think the reason they don’t commit is because of comparison. I think a lot of imposter syndrome actually is the result of comparison.
And I think what most people do when they’re really suffering from this concept of imposter syndrome, which is basically believing that what you have done isn’t as good or as important as somebody else, even though it’s the same thing is at the root of that, like even in that definition, it’s going, no, you’re comparing yourself to someone else.
And you’re comparing your step one to someone else step 1000, your day one to someone else’s day 1000, your year one to someone else’s year 10. And they’re not comparable. And when we do that, we, what we don’t do is see all the work behind the scenes. I think that’s where we all suffer is like we see the end result and compare our behind the scenes mess to someone else’s very well curated end result.
Rory (10:20)
That’s it.
AJ (10:33)
And therein lies comparison. And I think that’s one of the downfalls of social media because everything can look so presented and it can be the end product.
We all have to remember like no one saw the camera crew scrambling behind the scenes or the amount of lighting prep or script prep or all the years of experience that it took to make that 30 second video or the amount of camera practice to feel confident when that red light goes on. Nobody thinks about that, right? Just you mentioned Steph Curry earlier, right? They see him in the game, but they didn’t see all the missed shots. They didn’t see the years and decades of practice.
And I think that’s where we all fall short of just taking a peek behind the scenes of like, why am I comparing at all?
Rory (11:21)
Yeah, that’s so good. And social media is like the perfect little capsule of this because you are literally seeing an edited, polished, perfected, highlight reel of a bright moment in somebody’s life and your feed is just filled with that. And just all the hours going into it. I saw an interview with Alex Hermosy recently, and he made a comment that I thought was really profound. said, Yeah,
the more advanced we’ve gotten in content production, the more we spend time planning and the less time shooting. He’s like, all of our time is spent in the planning. And then the shooting is just like, you know, we come in and we’re ready to go. And I thought, that’s, that’s, that’s a professional. That’s, that’s what a professional is.
AJ (12:06)
But that’s, think,
that’s the same thing in business and in sales. It’s like a great sale happens because there was immense planning behind the scenes. There was research, there was review, there was product knowledge, there was training, and then a seeming, you know, short 30 to 60 minute conversation ends well. And it’s like, wow, you’re such a great salesperson. It’s like, no, you’re such a great practicer, right? You’re such a good rehearser. You’re such a good student. You’re such a good learner. ⁓ Things don’t happen without all of that.
And so I think a lot of us struggle with this idea of I can’t do it because they’re looking at someone else who’s done all the practice and comparing them to themselves who have done none of the practice.
Rory (12:47)
Yeah, there. Shout out to our friend, Phil Jones. We’ve had him on this podcast before. He wrote a book called Exactly What to Say. And I love one of his core philosophies is the worst time to think about what you’re going to say is in the moment when you’re saying it. Right. Like, and that’s like a classic example of an amateur, like the worst moment to like think about what you’re going to do or say is like in the moment it needs to happen. You haven’t prepped. You haven’t planned like you’re
not you’re not experienced leading leading into it.
AJ (13:20)
Cause you haven’t practiced it. And this is a good reminder for all of us. No one is good. The first time you do it, no one knows what you’re doing. The first time you do it, doesn’t matter who you are. Elon Musk, Jeff Bezos, it doesn’t matter. They did not know what they were doing until they did it.
Rory (13:37)
wish we still had you remember we made one of our first products was that that DVD called speaker that showed all the clips of me speaking it was horrible. I speaking at comedy clubs and Toastmaster clubs and we had it on film. And then you could see the world championship the world championship at the end. That’s such a powerful, a powerful thing. ⁓ All right.
AJ (14:00)
So I want to add one more thing to this because I think it’s really important. What I have found internally within our company at my previous profession as a sales trainer, working with companies, working with teammates, here’s one of the biggest things that I would say about this comparison thing that just drives me nuts is that people would rather fail live in the moment with a client versus, ⁓ I guess even be open to the embarrassment of role playing with their leader.
And it’s one of the things that as a leader, I’ve always done. It’s like, no, we’re going to role play this. And they’re just like, no, I’m like, no, we’re going to roll play this right now. And it’s like, we do that with a practice interviews and presentations and sales conversations. And it’s like, why would you expect for you to be good? The first time you ever did it with a paying client. And I would just, I caution to say like, it doesn’t matter what your profession is. It’s like, it is your job to practice before you go play the game.
Rory (14:57)
Did you imagine a pilot that learned how to fly with like, with you know, the first time or a surgeon that
AJ (15:02)
We were talking about
the other day. was like, I want the gray hair man in my pilot seat. you know, it’s, don’t want the fresh new person learning all this stuff. like, no, I don’t want your new techniques. I want the old tried and true techniques. Thank you very much. But I would say the same thing. when you think about going on camera or going on a stage, like how dare you think that somebody should pay you to speak in front of their people. And that’s the first time you’ve done it. Like.
So I think there’s some humility in going like, no, like we gotta take it back to, no, I’m gonna practice like I play and we’re gonna do it right and we’re gonna do it again and again and again so that when you get on stage, people are like, whoa, even if it was the first time, because the truth is it’s never the first time. I love it. Next one.
Rory (15:47)
Okay,
I’ve got another another really big limiting belief that I think hold the people back, I want to make sure we get to it. But do you have a burning one that you want to share? Or should I just jump in and share?
AJ (15:59)
I mean,
I don’t know if I would say it’s burning, so go ahead.
Rory (16:03)
Okay, so I’m going to say this and it’s going to sound like a sales pitch, but this is not a sales pitch. Well, it’s always a sales pitch. But I genuinely believe one of the most debilitating limiting beliefs that holds people back from building their personal brand is that they are in they are afraid to invest money into their business. And I don’t just mean coaching.
AJ (16:08)
Are you sure?
Rory (16:33)
I mean, they’re afraid to invest into a nicer camera. They’re afraid to invest into a nicer logo, into a nicer website, into running ads, into hiring a team member, into paying better to get better team members. And there is this fear always with money that that entrepreneurs have, especially when they’re like really starting out, where they go, ⁓ I’m not gonna hire you for coaching. You’re just trying to take advantage of me. Or like, ⁓ I don’t really need that camera. Like it’s it’s
you know, like, it’s probably not like necessary. And to an extent, nothing is necessary. Like it’s nothing is, you know, essential going to make or break like no bit of coaching or equipment or person is going to make or break your business like you are. But every one of those decisions levels up. And when you compound the leveling up of all of those things, and I just think that people, they don’t want to invest. And when you look at the people who are winning,
they invest time and money into equipment, into education, into coaching, into staff, into personnel. Like they spend money on their business. And I think this is one of the most critical limiting beliefs that holds people back.
AJ (17:50)
Where do you think that comes from?
Rory (17:53)
scarcity around money. Yeah, it comes from comes from scarcity around money. And especially, you know, I think about me growing up somebody who didn’t come from a lot of money. When you finally have like a little bit, it’s like money is survival. And when you equate money to like survival, it’s just like you cannot reinvest because it’s like, this is my survival. And there is an evolution that happens to on the way to becoming like a wealthier person that is money is a tool.
and I use money as a tool to grow and make more money among other things. so I think…
I think we live in a world of scarcity financially, and I think there’s a lot of horrible information about money. And frankly, there are no shortage of people trying to take advantage of you and take money out of your pocket and investment schemes and crappy coaches. And so I you know, there’s a part of that that I go, yeah, there’s you, know, you get burned a few times, and you’re like, I’m never doing that again. But I think entrepreneurs actually ironically have a much
like poor people are actually the ones who are more emotionally attached to money. can say this from having been there because it’s like this is my survival. I must have this. can’t let this go. I found that wealthy people are kind of emotional emotionally detached from money. It’s like a hammer. Many they have they view it more as a tool, right? And it’s like, yeah, I’d be upset if I lost my hammer. But it’s like, it’s just a hammer, like I can go get another hammer and make it happen. So anyways, that’s I think a
AJ (19:13)
depends.
Rory (19:28)
I think that’s a big one. What do you agree?
AJ (19:30)
I just say
that there’s a couple of things that you said. It’s not that I disagree with. think there’s just some perspective shifts. Um, and I think one of them is this whole idea. Oh, I’ve been burned a few times or I’ve even heard people say, I’ll never do that again. I’ll never pay for another conference. I’ll never hire another coach because it was such a bad experience. And my response has always been, I don’t know where this came from, but it’s just like, well, didn’t you learn from that experience? Like,
Isn’t that in and of itself a great lesson of what to do, what not to do, what you like, what you don’t like, what not to do next time, who not to hire next time? Isn’t that valuable in and of itself? And I think that just comes back to the principle of there is no failing, there’s no bad decisions, there’s only lessons learned.
Rory (20:03)
lesson.
AJ (20:21)
Right. And I think if we can have that perspective shift, when we think about learning and investing into your business, it’s like, even if it fails, even if it doesn’t work, even if it backfires, I will learn something is a mentality, a perspective shift that helps. I think people try again, do it again. ⁓ and I think that’s a really important thing is, you know, yeah, like you’re going to make mistakes. You’re going to hire the wrong people. Things aren’t going to work.
Let’s just call it what it is. Like it’s gonna blow up in your face. It’s gonna backfire. Things are going to break and not work. What did you learn?
Rory (21:00)
That’s so good. mean, that also makes me think of another another key difference between wealthy people and average people financially is that wealthy people always think longer term. So
a lot of people, especially if you don’t have a lot of money, right? This was me, even as a young entrepreneur, I remember literally emptying my bank account writing a check to Darren LaCroix for a humor class that was like, it literally was the last dollars in my account. ⁓ But
you know, I think about I was like $2,000 or something for this one class. And that was that was a lot of money to me. And I go, ⁓ my gosh, I’ve made 10s of 1000s of dollars over the course of my career from what I learned in those two days. But like, when you don’t have a lot of money, you’re like, Okay, I need to put a dollar in the machine. And if I don’t get to back to today or tomorrow, I’m never doing this again. And
AJ (21:59)
What happens more frequently even is if I don’t get it back in the short amount of time frame, I’m just going to quit altogether. Yeah. I’m just going to stop altogether. And it’s like success doesn’t happen overnight and growth and change definitely doesn’t happen overnight or in a week or in a month or in a year sometimes. And it’s like, you got to have that long-term perspective. I’d say one of the things that you said, I think is important to kind of highlight it’s now we live in an age and an era where learning and improving, there’s just no excuses. Anything you want to learn is out.
fingertips literally with a clickety clack of your type board there it goes between all of the new you know LLMs and blogs and podcasts it’s like no excuses yeah that doesn’t mean it’s all credible doesn’t mean it’s all but that whole idea that ⁓ I’m just I’m not gonna invest I’m not gonna try I’m not gonna learn it’s like that’s that we’re just beyond that there’s just there’s no excuse for that in today’s in today’s world
Rory (22:58)
And
I love what you’re saying there about like, we have spent so much money on kind of crappy or mediocre coaching or crappier, mediocre, like services or crappier, mediocre, like, you know, courses or knowledge or information or tools that we bought. But it’s like, it’s it’s valuable, even if it doesn’t work, because it’s like learning. I think it was Thomas Edison who said something like, you know, I learned it’s valuable negative information. It’s like,
You have to learn a thousand things that don’t work to find the one thing that does work.
AJ (23:32)
yet.
would say it’s like I’ve read plenty of books that I don’t recommend plenty of conferences that I wouldn’t go to again. Like there’s a lot of that and I can honestly say I learned something from every single book, from every single coach, from every single conference. It may not have been a multitude of things, but at least one thing. And my approach has always been whatever I’m going to do, what’s the one thing? I don’t need 10 things. I’m not going to do 10 things. I need one thing. What’s the one thing? And I’ve been to many events where it’s like I left halfway through
a third of the way through, not because it was bad, but it was like, I got what I needed. I’m good. Right? And if we all go through with this approach of just like, what’s the one thing? What’s the one thing I need? What’s the one thing that’s a takeaway for me? And often if you just open up your mindset and just go, I don’t need a lot of things. I don’t need all the things. I need one thing that I can go and actually change or start doing or stop doing or see differently. Even, you know, a lot of times I just leave with a perspective shift.
And that is worth it to me. And so I think again, all of those are just choices of going, how do I spend my time? How do I spend my money in order to get the results that I’m looking for? And then nothing is a bad investment. Everything is a good investment because you got something.
Rory (24:49)
Absolutely. So, all ⁓ right. I want to ask you a question, which is if somebody is watching right now and they’re struggling with these three limiting beliefs that we have, we have talked about. So they basically, you know, have like the novelty addiction of like the new thing. They have imposter syndrome or they have a scarcity around money. What do think they could do in the next seven days to do a mindset reset?
you will. Like, ⁓ we’ve been there and all three of these at many times in many places. What, what would you tell to somebody if they’re if they’re struggling with any of these things, you go the next seven days, here’s what you should focus on to shake free.
AJ (25:35)
Yeah, I would say the first thing is to go back through these things, which could be the novelty addiction or what I would call this shiny object syndrome. Could be the imposter syndrome or IE comparison, or it’s the scarcity of money, which I think you can also liken it to what am I to? I think it’s a lot of that comes to I’m choosing to see what I don’t have versus what I can glean from this. And I think all of those are to say, which one do you suffer from? Maybe they’re all of them, but let’s pick one.
Right? think the first thing you got to do in the next seven days is go, where is this showing up in my life? And you have to pinpoint the catalyst of it. And I would just encourage you to pinpoint which one of those three things is really nagging at your soul, because there’s typically one of them. And then I would say, I, this is really just have some time of reflection, grab a journal, get outside and give yourself 30 minutes to go. Where is that coming from?
What was the event that sparked this in my life? Because I believe that when you can pinpoint where it started or what triggered it, now you can take control over it. Right? And I think the reason that most of us keep living in this hamster wheel of the same thing, you know, happening again and again, ruminating in our lives is because we, we don’t have control over where it started so we can rewrite the narrative.
And so if you’re really struggling from, you know, imposter syndrome or comparison, then you got to sit down and go, when did that start? Where was it? What was it? What happened that started that? Because there was always an event. There was also, there was always a moment where there was a trigger that then began this pattern in your life. And I think it doesn’t take us long. It’s just, you just got to have the time and give yourself the mental space and permission to go there.
Because once you do, and once you can identify it, you can actually start to make tangible changes. You can say like, were you compared to someone else in the classroom? Or you compared to a sibling, right? Where you compared to other people on your team that were perhaps better at you at that season in your life at a sport or, you know, school or whatever it was. And I think a lot of it is just going back to where did that start so that you know, that’s not true in your life today.
It was an event that happened and it was a lie. Cause this whole episode is about lies. These are lies. These are not truths. Those lies started when you started to believe something that wasn’t true about yourself and you got to go back and go, when did that lie start? And how can I start to speak truth over myself to combat that lie? Because it’s not who you are today. We’re believing things today that started from one thing that happened years ago or decades ago, and we haven’t been able to let them go. That’s what I would do in the next seven days.
to truly, really start to eradicate these lies from your life.
Rory (28:26)
I love that. I love that. All right. So we need to go to the community question. want to, I want to wrap up. want to give you three, I want to give you three specific affirmations or mantras or beliefs that you could use to rewrite. If you’re struggling with these, these are things that have helped me. So number one, if you are struggling with this issue of like shiny object syndrome, the mantra, I always remind myself it’s in our book. If you have diluted focus, you get diluted results. Number two, if you’re struggling with
I would encourage you, this is a quote that I think about often, it’s from Mark Twain. said, each man is my superior in some way. And therefore, I am superior to each man in some way, right? So we all have value to learn and gain from each other. Number three, if you’re struggling with scarcity around money, I would encourage you to say, money is a tool that I invest and I use it to bring me more money.
So those are three little belief patterns you could adopt or try on and see if that helps you.
AJ (29:30)
Love it.
All right. So in this community section, right, this is one of the favorite times of this episode because we get to answer a question from our brand builders group community and everyone gets to submit a question and then they vote up on which one we’re going to talk about on the show today. So let me tell you, I know this is from Derek. He says, I’m a financial advisor with real expertise. I know my stuff, but I freeze every single time I try to film content. You’re not alone, Derek.
It’s not that I don’t know what to say. I just feel, let’s highlight that word, all caps, feel like I’m going to say something wrong or look stupid on camera. My coach keeps telling me it’s a mindset issue, but that advice hasn’t helped. Is there an actual tactical step-by-step way to train your brain to self-sabotaging when the camera is on?
Rory (30:26)
gosh, this is such a…
AJ (30:28)
Such
a question and applicable to 99 % of us. I have a few, but do you want to start?
Rory (30:32)
Yes, sure.
So
To me, like everything that we teach, there is a mental part of this and then there’s a technical part of this. Since he’s saying that ⁓ he’s been attacking the mental part, I’m gonna talk about a couple technical things. Okay, so number one, most technical tip I have if you feel nervous on camera is hit record on the camera long before you actually go to talk to it. So let it just be recording and just sit in the room
⁓ and get used to like, the camera’s on and it’s like, you just, because if you have to like hit record and start talking, there’s like this pressure of this moment being on. But if you just let the camera roll and just like, the camera’s just rolling all the time, you feel less of like, okay, time to like turn on and like go into presenter mode. And you get comfortable with the idea of just, ⁓ I’m being recorded, it’s not a big deal, we can edit it after. And you’re more likely to just talk to the camera.
that you would in your normal voice and not go into like presenter mode or influencer mode. Because I think that’s the big tip here is don’t think about looking at a camera and like, don’t think about I’m talking to thousands of people, pretend the camera is like a face and talk to the camera as if it’s like a person in your normal voice. So.
AJ (31:55)
Yeah, I think that’s good. tips. Mine are very similar to that. So I’ll just kind of tag on to that ⁓ is if you have a hard time talking to the camera, it’s because you’re really talking to yourself and that’s weird and it’s awkward. So don’t talk to yourself. Here’s two things that you can do. One, literally print out a picture of your avatar or your favorite client or your spouse or your best friend or whoever, whoever you want and tape it above the camera.
And so you’re not talking to the camera, a lens, you’re talking to a person. So what we tell people to do is like literally print out, like who’s your ideal client, right? Who’s the person that you’re making this content for or what do you imagine they would look like or, you know, just have a friendly face or whatever it is, but talk to the picture. Don’t talk to the camera, talk to the picture.
And it really helps us go, okay, this is actually for a person. And it becomes less about what you’re saying to the camera and more about serving the person. The other thing you can do is use a teleprompter. Right? It’s like, if you know your stuff and you know what to say, and you just freeze when the camera goes on and your mind goes blank, that happens to a lot of us. That’s just like our nerves are kicked in. So give yourself a little bit of a study guide. So use a teleprompter. Like we have plenty of people who use note cards on stages.
Right? Like that’s a normal thing. Don’t feel like you can’t use that here. So use a teleprompter or have a postcard, like a giant poster board in the back. Like those things help. And then one other quick tool or tactic I would say that would be really helpful is if you really freeze with that, then just have someone interview you so you can have a real conversation, a real dialogue. And then you just need a good editor.
right? So that you can cut things as they need. But it’s like, have someone actually stand behind the camera and ask you the questions and then you’re talking to them. So if the picture thing doesn’t work, the teleprompter doesn’t work, turning the camera on early doesn’t work, then you just need a real life human that you can have a real life conversation with because that, that is what makes great content. That’s what the conversational tone of even, you know, episodes like this happen because you’re just talking to a real human. And so get you someone to stand behind the camera and just ask you the questions.
Rory (34:01)
Love that. I can’t resist the opportunity to do a shout out for Nashville Creative Spaces right now. ⁓ So we own a building in Nashville called Nashville Creative Spaces and we have a teleprompter in that space and a live human. And one of the reasons I’m bringing it up is because people always tell us, I booked the studio so I didn’t have to worry about the right mic and the right camera and the right lighting. But what I got most was your team coaching me through the fear of what to say.
AJ (34:13)
and a live human.
Rory (34:30)
or how to say it and also just having the teleprompter right there. We solve all that problem for you. So ⁓ you can check out Nashville Creative Spaces. And if you are a personal brand who goes, you know what, I am struggling with some of these limiting beliefs that we’ve talked about on this episode and I do need the combination, the perfect blend of ⁓ mental and tactical and I want the accountability of being in a community or even having a one-on-one coach.
Go to freebrandcall.com forward slash podcast. You can request a call and talk with someone from our team to see if you might fit to be a part of our member, mission, our community of mission-driven messengers. And we’d love to get a chance to meet you. So for myself and AJ, this is a wealthy and well-known podcast. Share this episode with someone who you think needs it and don’t let those believing beliefs hold you back. We’ll catch you next time.
AJ (35:22)
you being a dabbler right now?
Rory (35:24)
be a dabbler. Subscribe.
WWK Ep 013: Reclaiming Your Health with NYT Bestselling Author Ben Azadi
Rory & AJ Vaden (00:00)
what are we not asking? What do we not know? Or what are we being misinformed of that you think is the most universal, most general that people need to be aware of?
Ben Azadi (00:10)
is a great question because we’re dealing, all of us are dealing with this. The first thing to consider is that doctors are not trained on this philosophy of the body’s built to heal itself. So I don’t blame doctors. I blame the system. And I used to say for so many years, AJ, the system is broken. The system is broken. I no longer feel that way. It’s running and designed the exact way that it was set up. It’s a cash cow. It’s a brilliant subscription model. What we should be asking is why do I have these symptoms? Not how do I
mask these symptoms or medicate the symptoms or reduce these symptoms, but why?
the symptom is not the problem. The symptom is the gift. The symptom is the body’s check engine light. It’s the way the body communicates to you. If you got in your vehicle.
and you’re on a road trip and your check engine light turned on, thank God there’s a system in place to show you something underneath the hood is going on. Don’t just mask, cover up that light, no, pull it over, take it to a mechanic, find out what’s happening. So the question we should be asking the doctor is why? Why do I have the
Rory & AJ Vaden (01:12)
Welcome to the wealthy and well-known podcast. Y’all today’s guest is someone who is helping millions of people reclaim their health, their energy and mental clarity, starting from the inside out. Ben Azadi is a leading voice in metabolic health, a bestselling author, four time bestselling author and a New York Times bestselling author, by the way. He’s also the founder of Keto Camp. His work bridges science, mindset, faith and practical action in a way that empowers people to take ownership of their bodies.
and their lives. So if you are listening to this today and you care about longevity, discipline, and becoming the best version of yourself specifically in this new year, then this is a conversation for you. Don’t miss it. This is a time to spend on getting yourself to the healthiest state humanly possible. So let’s dive in.
Rory & AJ Vaden (02:04)
Hey y’all, we are so excited for this conversation. And I say we, I mean me. This is like one of those awesome episodes where I’m like, I’ve been eagerly anticipating this conversation because I love it when I am personally invested in a topic and I’m like, I cannot wait to see what he says about this and this and this. And you guys heard this awesome introduction of my newer friend, Vinazati. But we’re gonna be talking today about health breakthroughs.
And I think Ben is one of those people who not only has the true researched and academic approach, but also the real life personal experience of misinformation, which I think is all too common for all of us. And I think the reason I’m so excited for this conversation, Ben, is because that was me too, right? And I think that’s a lot of us. So here’s how I would love to start is just one.
Ben Azadi (02:50)
Mm.
Rory & AJ Vaden (02:56)
Can you give our audience just a little bit of background on who you are and just for everyone who’s listening, if you didn’t catch it, he’s a world renowned health expert, a four times bestselling author and host of the Keto Camp podcast, right? So there’s a lot of stuff going on, but outside of that, like what should our audience know about you as we kick off this conversation today?
Ben Azadi (03:15)
Yeah, I’m excited to be here AJ. Thank you for the invitation. you know, like you said, I’m somebody who also struggled with my health, my energy, my metabolism for a very long time, 20 plus years. And I want it to feel better. I wanted to have more energy. I didn’t want to have to rely on medication or a broken medical system. And I felt like, you know, when I, when I was in my early twenties, I felt like I was being gas lit by my doctor because I had all these issues going on 23 years old. I was very young, but I had brain fog. had, I was
I
depressed, was suicidal, was obese, I was dealing with a ton of inflammation, digestive issues. I mean, I could go on and on about the symptoms I was dealing with. I would make my appointment with my doctor like so many of us do, and I’d list the symptoms, and not once did my doctor ask me the question, what are you eating? Let’s discuss your lifestyle, how’s your sleep? It was more about, what can I prescribe for this young man? And there were some prescriptions that were recommended by my doctor, but I felt like I was too young to get on that.
and I had to figure things out on my own. And I really took a deep dive into health and metabolism. I got really excited because I started replying what I was learning and I completely transformed my health. This was 18 years ago. I lost 80 pounds of extra inflammatory fat that was hanging around my body.
I went from being physically obese and mentally obese to being physically fit and what I call a mental six pack. And I was able to transform my health. And the cool thing about the way that I did it is that number one, I’m not special. Anybody could do it too. I don’t care how you want your ages. Number two, that was 18 years ago. I kept the weight off. I feel like I’m getting healthier year after year. I’m 41 now and I honestly feel the healthiest I’ve ever felt before. And one thing that I know to be true is that God built the body
to be self-healing. There’s not a doctor, a supplement, a pill, a medication, a shot that could replace the inner physician that’s already within our 70 trojan cells. As long as we remove the interference. So I had a lot of things that were interfering with this amazing body and we’re going to discuss that today. What are the things that are interfering with your body? You remove that interference, the body will heal itself. So now, know, fast forward, I’m a New York Times bestselling author, just like you. I speak on
stages, I do keynote lectures, I speak to doctors and medical groups. I’m not a doctor myself and I’m not saying all this to impress anybody but I’m saying it to impress upon them. I’ve a lot of research, I’ve worked with a lot of people and I’ve kind of extracted what works for most people and what doesn’t work and today we’re going to decipher exactly what that is.
Rory & AJ Vaden (05:54)
You know, I love what you said is like, there’s an inner physician in all of us. And one of my, as many of you who are listening know, I live here in Nashville, Tennessee. And one of my favorite food markets has this sign. It’s called urban market. If you’ve lived here in Nashville, they have this amazing sign behind the register that says, let thy food be thy medicine and thy medicine be thy food. And I think that,
Ben Azadi (06:07)
I love that place.
Rory & AJ Vaden (06:18)
Unfortunately, at least here in America, we live in a society, at least for now, where it has been prescriptions, not inner healing. It has not been, let’s figure out what the interference is, remove it so that we can have healthy, happy lifestyles. It’s like, how many more chemicals can we find and prescribe? Which I’m curious to hear is like, how much of that is the interference? So I don’t know, we’ll have to find out. But okay, so here’s our first question.
This has been going on for 18 years, right? And I would also just second, like I turned 42 this year and this is the healthiest, fittest, happiest I’ve been my whole adult life. So for all of you who are not in your forties yet, good things are coming. The forties have proven to be a good decade thus far. But I think, I think this is the interesting thing. It’s like you were going to your doctor. I was going to a doctor for years and wasn’t getting the right information.
and there was no information in my case. It wasn’t even misinformation. There was none. wasn’t even let’s have the conversation. So I would be curious for everyone who’s listening to hear like, what are we not asking? What do we not know? Or what are we being misinformed of that you think is the most universal, most general that people need to be aware of?
Ben Azadi (07:34)
The first thing is a great question because we’re dealing, all of us are dealing with this. The first thing to consider is that doctors are not trained on this philosophy of the body’s built to heal itself. So I don’t blame doctors. I blame the system. And I used to say for so many years, AJ, the system is broken. The system is broken. I no longer feel that way. It’s running and designed the exact way that it was set up. It’s a cash cow. It’s a brilliant subscription model. What we should be asking is why do I have these symptoms? Not how do I
mask these symptoms or medicate the symptoms or reduce these symptoms, but why? What’s the cause of these symptoms? Because here’s an example. Most Americans, they buy their junk food at their convenience store. It’s a convenience store because it’s very cheap and easy and convenient, but these foods, they’re like food-like substances, they are loaded with artificial ingredients, preservatives, chemicals, rancid fats, and we eat these foods because they’re cheap and convenient, and then we get a symptom. That could be,
Maybe you have brain fog or maybe you’re starting to gain some belly fat or maybe your thyroid is slowing down. So your energy production is lower. So you just you feel off. And we’ve been trained to believe that those symptoms are the problem. I want a medication to lower my blood pressure. I need a medication to lower my blood sugar. I want to go on a Zephyg to loosen what the symptom is not the problem. The symptom is the gift. The symptom is the body’s check engine light. It’s the way the body communicates to you. If you got in your vehicle.
and you’re on a road trip and your check engine light turned on, thank God there’s a system in place to show you something underneath the hood is going on. Don’t just mask, cover up that light, no, pull it over, take it to a mechanic, find out what’s happening. So the question we should be asking the doctor is why? Why do I have the symptom? That gets you down the path of, okay, you’re eating these inflammatory foods, remove that interference, you start to produce more energy and burn fat and feel good. The next thing to consider is that here in the United States, we spend about four
trillion dollars on health care every single year. And if that was a GDP of a country, that would be the fourth largest GDP in the entire world. And what’s really interesting about that
amount of spend is that one out of every four dollars spent on health care is spent on diabetes, primarily type 2, which is 100 % preventable and 100 % reversible. It’s a lifestyle disease, but unfortunately, it’s been treated with medication. And it’s not just the diabetes, it’s the obesity, it’s the heart disease, it’s the thyroid condition. So it’s not about the symptom. The symptom is a blessing. It’s a gift. It’s about the cause. We want to figure out what’s going on.
at a cellular level inside the body.
Rory & AJ Vaden (10:11)
a ha moment of, know, symptoms aren’t the problem, they’re the signal, right? It’s like, hey, this is your alert system. Are you paying attention? And are you asking what’s causing the symptom versus just give me a medication to solve the symptom? It’s like, now we kind of have to go underneath the symptom to figure out what’s the cause of it. What do you think for you, at least in your experience, what did you learn from the beginning?
Or actually, let ask you an even earlier question, because I think a lot of people who are listening are like, I can relate to this. Where do I start? So take it back 18 years. Where did you start?
Ben Azadi (10:48)
It starts with the foundations of getting healthy, right? It doesn’t have to require a ton of money, although I’m a big fan of different biohacks and devices and all that, but it doesn’t, you don’t start there. The supplements I’m a big fan of too, but they supplement the lifestyle. So the foundations need to be laid first. need a strong foundation, right? So that’s going to be your movement, right? Moving your body. That’s where I started to answer your question. I started by moving my body, walking outside, riding my bicycle, playing basketball, doing things that I enjoy doing that it required me to move my body. Then I started
to just focus on eating whole foods. And I know we hear that all the time, eat whole foods, eat real food. But I think a lot of people, and Jay, don’t really understand what that means. I will explain that because a whole food is simply a single ingredient food. When we go to the supermarket, urban market is, I love that place, but any supermarket, is it urban or urban?
Rory & AJ Vaden (11:40)
Urban.
Ben Azadi (11:41)
When we go to any supermarket and let’s say we are on the perimeters where they have like the produce and the beef, when we look at the ingredients list of an avocado, for example, there’s not a list of ingredients. It’s what you see. You get the avocado, a potato, it’s just the potato, eggs, just the egg, the beef, the beef. But when you go in the middle aisles and you now get a potato chip instead of the potato, it’s now a processed version of the whole food.
Rory & AJ Vaden (11:59)
Mm-hmm.
Ben Azadi (12:04)
there’s 20, 30 ingredients. So a simple start is eat only single ingredient foods, move your body. That’s where I started. And then when you go from there, you start to make some progress, you get momentum. Then you start stacking things and stacking different behaviors and habits, and then you gain some serious momentum.
Rory & AJ Vaden (12:22)
Okay, I love these are two simple steps. Move, like move, right? It’s going to walk, go biking, play pickleball, but move. ⁓ Can we just pause on that one just for a second? What do you find in your 18 years of research and working with people? Like, why don’t they do that? Like it’s a simple step, that didn’t mean it was easy. Why don’t they?
Ben Azadi (12:25)
Thank you.
Right, yes.
because we want the sexy thing. We want the, you know, the ozendic, the fad diet. We want the whatever’s trending in the health world these days, apple cider vinegar, whatever it is. We want the sexy thing, but you know, sleep and movement and eating real food. It’s like, we’ve heard that before and it sounds so simple. So we don’t necessarily do it because it just sounds too easy, but sometimes, a lot of the times, little by little, little becomes a lot.
Right. It’s about getting momentum and a lot of people, especially this, you know, this time of year, we start to do make different changes and we start to throw everything into the mix all at once. Gym membership, keto diet, intermittent fasting, these supplements, and we just throw too much and we can’t, we make some progress and then all of sudden it’s just too much for the body to handle. a lot of people like the sexy stuff. They want to hear about, you know, the infrared sauna and the cold plunge. And again, I’m not against any of that. I have an infrared sauna and a cold plunge.
but those are things you add later on. The foundations are set in stone. Like this is the way we’ve been healthy for a very long time. This is way our ancestors were healthy. Once we look back at our ancestors and see what they did for the most part, we could follow suit and then get healthy and then stack those other sexy items that everybody’s looking for.
Rory & AJ Vaden (14:04)
I love that. What would you recommend? Is there a goal of for how long when you think about movement? Is it 10 minutes, 30 minutes? Is it low impact, high impact? Does it matter?
Ben Azadi (14:16)
I would start with getting daily steps each day. would aim wherever you’re at with your current level of activity. If you’re getting 5,000 steps a day, let’s bring it to 7,000. If you’re at 7,000, let’s bring it to 9,000. But once you get to around 10,000 steps a day, that’s going to be optimal. And you’re not going to get those 10,000 steps in one walk. I wouldn’t recommend that. It’s sprinkled throughout the day. These are actually called exercise snacks. And one of the best things you can do for your energy levels, digestion, for fat loss, is to go for a
15 minute walk after your largest meal of the day, which is typically dinner for most people. When you do that, it improves digestion. There’s less of this blood sugar spike from that meal. it blunts that blood sugar spike so you don’t get a crash in energy after and you get back into a fat burning state much faster. So I recommend having something that tracks your steps. I use an aura ring, but there’s so many different things out there and aim to get 10,000 steps a day. When you do that, you strengthen your heart.
you strengthen your arteries, you are able to burn fats. Walking is so underrated and if you could time it with that 15 minute walk after your biggest meal of day and do that consistently, just that alone without any other changes, you will start to see some progress.
Rory & AJ Vaden (15:31)
and I’ll tell y’all for who are listening, know if you follow me on social, you see me, but it’s like, I have an actual old school step counter, like one that clips onto your shoe. And it’s like, one of the things I learned for those of you who listening, if you relate to this, I had to see it. I was like, I actually have to see, because if I saw that I was like 8,200 steps, I’m like, oh, I’m almost there. But if I didn’t see it, I would get in bed at night and I’m like, dang it, I missed it. Versus having it on my shoe, like a weirdo, people are always like,
Is that a, you’re not, you’re not out of prison, are you? No, not a tracking device. It’s not. But it’s like, you know, I think about like, know yourself of like, are you a visual person? Like, is that going to help you? And I just, it did for me when I was trying to make some of these changes. But also I love that simple tip of just go for 15 minute walk after your biggest meal or make it a habit of like, go on a walk after every meal.
Ben Azadi (16:05)
Thank
Rory & AJ Vaden (16:28)
You know, one of things I was thinking of like, just like park the farthest way away from the restaurant, right? It’s like, don’t try to get the VIP space up front. It’s like park as far away as you can, where it’s like, it forces you to get in some of those steps if you’re gonna go out to eat. And it’s like, how can you challenge yourselves in those little ways that will compound, as you said, into the big things.
Ben Azadi (16:51)
That’s exactly it. Yeah. I love that because number one, with looking at your steps, you’re gamifying it in a way, right? You’re able to see and hit those goals and see it right in front of you and see how many steps you have, how many steps you need, and you can finish those steps because you see it right there in front of you. And that tip about parking far away and walking is a great tip. We tend to drive around as close as possible to see that open spot as close as possible to the door. No need to do that. Just park wherever you see the first spot, walk.
When you see the choice between elevator or stairs, take the stairs. These are different things that add up over time. They really do.
Rory & AJ Vaden (17:26)
Totally. And it’s like, just, again, do all the little things. It’s like, you’re working out and you don’t even realize it for the person who’s like, I can’t make it to the gym. That doesn’t allow in my lifestyle or my, it’s like, well, these are all things that help us get there. And I love that. And I love the two of just like the simple definition of eat whole foods, right? These are just the single ingredient foods. So I have a personal question for you, right? So.
I agree with this. Are there any non-single ingredient foods or any brands that you would say, have found that if you’re going to have to have, you know, a middle of the grocery store, I’ll snack that if you’re going to buy something, this is what you should do, right? These are the brands or these are the foods. Are there any that are on your like approved checklist?
Ben Azadi (18:10)
Yeah, there is. is absolutely. So there’s healthier versions of these processed foods and now they’re not single ingredient whole foods. So they’re not as good as that, but they’re, you know, if you want those as an option, especially if you have kids, it’s a good option for them as well. Lesser Evil is a good brand that’s in most grocery stores. have Siete, you have Epic. These are companies that are typically found in most commercial grocery stores. There’s a good company called Thrive Market that it’s kind of like, yeah, it’s kind of like Costco meets Whole Foods.
online membership, you pay an annual fee, and then you shop online. And they have a ton of these products that are healthier versions of processed foods. You just shop online, deliver it to your door. So yeah, there’s definitely options out there. There’s healthier ways to go about it. And know, things like bone broth, like kettle and fire bone broth, you could find that at grocery stores. So absolutely any of those brands, even though they’re multiple ingredients, they’re typically cleaner on the ingredient side.
Rory & AJ Vaden (19:04)
Yeah, I love that. I love, we have most of these brands and I love that. One of the things that, I don’t even know why I put this in place. It was literally just on a whim, but we have a policy in our house and part of my kids go grocery shopping with me when I go. And so part of like this education process is they have to be able to do two things. They have to pick foods that have no more than four ingredients. So we have a four ingredient policy.
And then they have to be able to pronounce all the ingredients. And if you cannot pronounce it, we cannot buy it. It’s like those, well, I didn’t kind of like gamify shopping and I’m like, they bring it over and I’m like, how many does it have? And they’re like five. And I’m like, oh, sorry, it’s more than four. Didn’t like to cut. Right. And it’s like, but it’s like, for those of you who have kids, it’s like, these are just small, simple ways of introducing this to them too. And then I love that. It’s like, you gotta have like what brands are trustworthy.
Ben Azadi (19:36)
Awesome.
That’s fantastic.
Rory & AJ Vaden (20:01)
And there’s so many, it’s like, if you were to look at all of them, oh my gosh, you’ve been in the grocery store for 12 hours. is, perimeter shopping is the best, I agree. Yeah, these are good of like, hey, if you’re gonna buy, these are some of the brands, check the ingredients, limit the ingredients, make sure you can pronounce them.
Ben Azadi (20:05)
It’s true. Yeah.
It is. Yeah.
I love that you do that with your kids. Another brand that came to mind is Masa, Masa chips. Masa chips, fantastic. It’s cooked in beef tallow, it’s organic tortilla, so it’s a great option for healthier chips. They also have potato chips as well, corn and potato, so Masa is a good brand as well.
Rory & AJ Vaden (20:24)
Let’s
Yeah, I have, I bought those before at like airports and stuff. And I didn’t even, it didn’t even register me to just said that I was like, yeah, I could probably buy those from a house. Yeah. Yeah. I love having like a list of good brands. okay. So that kind of leads to my next question, which is it’s so hard to discern and determine who to listen to. What’s trustworthy.
Ben Azadi (20:45)
Yeah.
Rory & AJ Vaden (20:58)
what’s a good brand, even if it’s promoted as, you know, healthy or, you know, people think, well, if it’s at Whole Foods, it must be good. And it’s like, no, not necessarily. So I guess how can people cut through some of these health trends or some of the fear-based messaging or conflicting advice? Cause it’s like, you could listen to four different people and you’re going to get four entirely different messages. How did you do that? And how do you tell people to do that today?
Ben Azadi (21:27)
It’s a big problem. We’re drowning in all this information. We used to have not enough information. Now it is too much information. We’re we’re drowning in information. We’re starving for that true wisdom and truth. Your rule was great. You shared with your kids, when you’re shopping, anybody could follow that rule. Four ingredients, you gotta be able to pronounce it. That’s great. People need to, we just need to read the labels and understand how to read the labels. The front of the package or the box is gonna have brilliant
It’s going to say like gluten-free organic, it’s going to be in Whole Foods. Doesn’t necessarily mean it’s healthy. It’s important to read the ingredients label. Follow that rule. If you can’t pronounce it, probably not a good idea. If it has a ton of ingredients, probably not a good idea. But you know, part of the other part to the answer here is a lot of people are now going on chat GPT, YouTube, they’re doing Google searches, they’re listening to the podcast and there’s so many different health experts out there, TikTok experts out there.
Rory & AJ Vaden (22:21)
Mm-hmm.
Ben Azadi (22:24)
A lot of it’s conflicting. And I think about this a lot because I feel for people because it’s like, but my nutritionist or this TikTok person said, just focus on calories, just about calories in versus calories out. And then they come across me and I’m like, don’t worry about calories. It’s about hormones and inflammation. Like, who do I believe? I always say that this is my answer. I always say, find somebody that you resonate with, their personality, their story. They make sense to you.
And go all in with that. Give it 30 days at the very minimum, maybe 60 days. Go all in with what they’re teaching. And if you see progress, you see results, stick with that person. If you see no results, maybe you regress. OK, that person’s philosophy or approach doesn’t work for you. That’s what I would recommend. You might have to go through a few people to get there, but there’s a lot of quality people teaching the right information. So I would recommend you find that person, that authority that you resonate with, and then go all in.
in
with them, don’t listen to anybody else, just that one person and see what it does for you. Maybe do some lab work as well. See what it does to your lab work and then you can kind of go from there. If it works, then continue with that person. If it doesn’t, move on to the next person.
Rory & AJ Vaden (23:33)
Yeah, I love that. And you said something that caught my attention and I wrote this down. So I want to come back to it. You said some people talk about calories in calories out and come to me and it’s about hormones and you know metabolism and it’s like so much talk about hormones right now. It’s like I think I’ve like every time I look at the bestseller list there’s a new book on hormones. Okay, I don’t know if it was just me or maybe I’m in a new season of life where it’s like my reticular activator has kicked in but I don’t feel like there was
this talk about hormones 20 years ago, 15, 10, maybe even five years ago, but in the last three years or so, there’s been this explosion of conversation around hormones at a very public, universal, everyone’s talking about it. Why and what do you have to say about it?
Ben Azadi (24:24)
Yeah, I know you’re right. wasn’t as popular five, 15, 20 years ago. It’s really common now. There’s a few reasons why. Well, number one, there’s now a mainstream message on metabolic health, which is great with, you know.
Rfk jr. Make America healthy again I know when I say that it triggers some people but there’s a conversation now being had about metabolic health Which I personally love because we know what was happening before was not working So thank God we have something that’s going to change right now and with this focus on metabolic health Hormones are one of the biggest things to focus on here our hormones Dictate everything for us. They help us produce energy. They help us burn fat They help us extend our lifespan and add years to our life our hormones need to be able to do their job
Hormones are simply these these little chemical messengers and they connect to your cells your cells hear the message if there’s not too much inflammation and then it tells your cells to perform that job. The issue is that too many people are inflamed. They have high levels of inflammation. When you have high levels of inflammation it’s like if I muted my mic here
I would be screaming at you. This is the hormones being produced or even taking hormones. But if the mic is muted, I could be screaming. You won’t hear the message. You would be frustrated. I would be frustrated. Same thing with the cells. If you’re taking hormones or you’re producing hormones, but there’s inflammation, the message is not getting through. You’re not going to get well. You’re not going to feel better. You’re not going to get.
the benefit of those hormones. So we want to reduce inflammation, right? When you do that, then those hormones get in. And that’s where all these authors and books, talk about that. There’s synergy between inflammation and hormones. And I love that this is now being talked about because it’s not about calories. Being overweight,
is not your problem. When I was obese, I never had a weight problem. It is a weight symptom. When we focus on calories, we’re focusing on the symptom. We would discuss why that’s the issue. It’s not the symptom. The symptom is the gift. Being overweight is the gift. It’s showing you there’s too much inflammation. So we don’t lose weight to get healthy. We get healthy to lose weight. When you get healthy by focusing on inflammation and hormones, the weight comes off as a side effect. That’s where the focus should be. So I love that we’re seeing these books. I love that we’re seeing
hormones trending and these different authorities or authors are talking about hormones because that’s really where it’s at when you combine the focus of hormones with the focus on lowering inflammation that’s where the magic happens.
Rory & AJ Vaden (26:50)
you said so many things that just like blew my mind a little bit. So I wanna go back. okay, okay. You said obesity is not a weight problem. It’s a weight symptom. It’s a symptom, right? And so when your body gets healthy, when your hormones are back in check and you reduce inflammation, the weight comes off as a by-product. Did I hear you right?
Ben Azadi (27:02)
Yes.
That’s right,
the weight loss is a side effect of getting healthy, yes.
Rory & AJ Vaden (27:15)
Okay, so let’s talk about two things then that I think are that I just hear these two topics come up all the time in my personal life with friends and family, my business life across the board. Can you explain to everyone what is inflammation, what causes it and what can you do to reduce it?
Ben Azadi (27:31)
Yes, I love that. There’s two types of inflammation, two primary types. There’s acute inflammation and then there’s chronic inflammation. Acute inflammation is not necessarily bad. If you worked out and you have soreness from the workout, that’s acute inflammation. That’s actually a good thing. Your body is sending all the healing properties. You’ll be sore for a couple of days and you’re stronger. If you sprain your ankle, if you hurt your shoulder, this is acute inflammation. Your body is sending those signals. It’s going to be just short term. It’s not necessarily the issue.
Chronic inflammation is the issue. Chronic inflammation is when your cells, you have about 30 to 70 trillion cells in your body, when your cells are inflamed, then…
those messengers, the hormones cannot get in, not just that. Oxygen cannot get into the cells, nutrients cannot get into the cells, and then you’re going to have some symptoms. So we want to find out what’s causing the inflammation. There’s many different things that cause the inflammation. I’ll give you a few of what I believe are the top things that cause inflammation. This might surprise a lot of people, but I believe the number one of the leading causes towards inflammation is actually eating too frequently, snacking and grazing throughout the day.
We’ve been trained to believe we need to eat every two to three hours to keep the metabolism revved up, fired up. That’s actually one of the worst things you can do for your health. If you want to age faster than anybody you know, eat every two to three hours. That is because without getting too scientific, I just want to explain why I say that, there’s something that I wrote about metabolic freedom in my book called the Hayflick Limit.
The Hayflick limit states that your cells could duplicate a certain amount of times until it can no longer duplicate. Once it reaches that limit, this is called the Hayflick limit, now that cell has reached its capacity and it goes into what’s called a zombie cell. A zombie cell now produces.
more inflammation, hormones cannot use the zombie cell, it weakens your immune system, it increases your chances of cancer and different autoimmune conditions. So we want to avoid the Hayflick limit.
you will reach that hayflick limit the fastest, the quickest way to reach it is when you’re eating every two to three hours. Every time you spike glucose from the meal, then insulin is produced, the cells duplicate. And you are achieving that hayflick limit much faster than if you just had three meals a day or practiced intermittent fasting. So that I believe eating too frequently and eating too close to bed on top of that.
is one of the fastest ways to raise inflammation and reach that hay flick limit.
Rory & AJ Vaden (30:07)
Okay, well
talk about some of the worst misinformation of our generation. Keep your metabolism up. Eat every two to three hours, lots of small meals. And that is one of those things that is simply about the aesthetics. It’s like, can you keep your metabolism to look a certain way, not actually be internally healthy?
Ben Azadi (30:13)
Right.
That’s exactly it. And you know, I taught that for so many years as a personal trainer. I used to own a gym here in Miami. used to believe in that. And so I knew better. And once you know better, you do better. And here’s the thing. You don’t even want to speed up your metabolism or boost your metabolism. As a matter of fact, the metabolism doesn’t even operate by speed. It’s not fast or slow. There’s no such thing. It’s either efficient or inefficient.
When you’re eating every two to three hours and most people are eating a lot of processed carbs, you are teaching your metabolism to be inefficient by only using sugar as the only fuel source. And when I say sugar, I’m not necessarily saying eating sugar, I’m saying carbohydrates turn into sugar. Now you have a metabolism that is a sugar burner. That is an inefficient metabolism. When you start to practice fasting, maybe a low-carb keto diet.
avoid eating every two to three hours, you now switch over to fat burning. That is now a metabolism that is efficient. So we don’t want a fast metabolism. No such thing. No such thing as a slow metabolism. We want a metabolism that is flexible and efficient, which is the premise behind my book, Metabolic Freedom.
Rory & AJ Vaden (31:41)
Hmm.
Well, I love that. I mean, there’s another misnomer, speed up your metabolism. And how many people have said the words, I just have a slow metabolism.
Ben Azadi (31:49)
all the time, all the time. know what’s really interesting, AJ? When I was digging into the research on metabolism, was writing the book, I came across a study that is the most comprehensive, best study ever done on the metabolism. it totally just…
Rory & AJ Vaden (31:51)
Yeah!
Ben Azadi (32:05)
excuse that your metabolism is slow, it just made it just like it voided the entire thing because the study showed this is a 2021 study Duke University 6,000 plus people in the study and it was a worldwide study that involved multiple countries and here’s what the study did it looked at different age groups from the age to yeah a two-year-old to age 95 years old and everybody in between 6,000 people and at the end of the study it said that our metabolism
between
the ages of 20 years old and 60 years old, there are no significant changes in the metabolism at all. Okay, so if you’re 45 or 51 or 57 saying it’s because my age is slowing my metabolism, this study, which is the gold standard of measuring metabolism, showed that doesn’t happen. But it did say this. It said they noticed after age 60, there’s a 0.7 % decline
in that metabolism every year after age 60. But the reason why that happens is because of loss of muscle mass, which means if you build your lean muscle mass in your 40s, 50s, or even if you’re over 60, you could be 95 years old with the same metabolism as when you were 25 years old by preserving that lean muscle mass. So to me, that’s super exciting and very cool. it also, you know, that excuse that you have a slow metabolism because of age studies
Rory & AJ Vaden (33:12)
huh.
Ben Azadi (33:34)
Please don’t back that up.
Rory & AJ Vaden (33:35)
Yeah. And then back to it’s like, it’s not about being skinny. It’s about being healthy. It’s about being healthy and having lean muscle mass that matters. Okay. Uh, I’m going go back to inflammation just for a second. said eating too frequently, right? Every two to three hours eating too late, too close to bed. Are there any other general, like, this is going to cause inflammation?
Ben Azadi (33:39)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, the environmental toxins have to be a part of that conversation. Chapter four, no, chapter five, excuse me, of metabolic freedom gets into this. So environmental toxins, reason why I wrote a whole chapter and why I’m bringing it up now is because we live in the most toxic world than ever before.
And the argument that I get on social media when I talk about detox and toxins is, but then we have these detoxification organs in place, the liver, the kidneys, the lymphatic system. Can’t we just detox these toxins that come in? Yes, we do have them in place. God put them there and they do help, but they cannot keep up. These detox pathways cannot keep up with the amount of toxins that we’re dealing with this day, these days. So when we think about it, we are the water that comes through our tap water.
is loaded with toxins. It’s loaded with chlorine and chemicals and different traces of medications and birth control pills. So one simple thing you can do is do not drink tap water at all, ever.
Rory & AJ Vaden (34:53)
Yeah. Good.
Ben Azadi (34:54)
And when you go to a restaurant and they offer you water, it’s typically tap water. I could smell it and know that it’s tap water. I never drink it. I get bottled water and I recommend you do the same. When you’re taking a shower, use a shower filter. $30 on Amazon, you replace every three months. It blocks those toxins in the chlorine, et cetera. Do an audit on your cosmetics. Do an audit on your cleaning supplies, your detergents. Switch over to non-toxic things. As you do these simple changes, it doesn’t require a lot of money or time, but just simple changes.
is you start to reduce that toxicity load. As you reduce the toxicity load, your inflammation also drops. You have more energy, your hormones function better, you burn fat, and you feel better overall.
Rory & AJ Vaden (35:37)
Yeah, I mean, those are so good because those are things you don’t think about, right? It’s like all the household cleaners, tap water, know, shower head filters, all the medications, the birth control. And it’s like, yeah, like we did a huge, what would you say? Yeah, I guess. Yeah. Purge of like our household cleaners of like, we only use, I don’t know if you heard of green llama.
Ben Azadi (35:54)
codes.
No, I haven’t.
Rory & AJ Vaden (36:03)
They’re like, you know, glass water bottles and they come with these little tablets that you just add water to, right? And then they dissolve and it’s like, it’s like I’ve gotten away from all of that stuff. Like my husband Rory’s like, you’re this close to straight blown hippie.
Ben Azadi (36:17)
The values
you feel better doesn’t matter.
Rory & AJ Vaden (36:19)
Keep it on, I’m ready. But those make a difference. Because if you don’t, then they all just add up. And it’s not one thing, it’s all the things.
Ben Azadi (36:26)
Yeah.
That’s correct. Yeah, it’s not one thing. all things. Exactly. Just your bucket just fills up. Like you just said, like I have this bottle here. I’m using, I always use glass water bottles as much as possible. When I can control it. Sometimes not the airport, can’t find it, but when you can control it, use glass instead of plastic. A couple of things. A lot of people who cook at home instead of a plastic cutting board, which you get a ton of microplastics in your food that way, switch over to a wooden cutting board instead of a plastic Tupperware, switch over to
last couple where so it’s just these simple swaps that when you’re aware of you can make the changes that go a long way over time.
Rory & AJ Vaden (37:02)
Amen. So I think, again, it’s not like one huge change that you have to make. It’s like, are all the micro changes that compound? Okay. So we talked about some inflammation, so that was great and super helpful. What are ways we can reduce it? Like, you know, it’s removing all of this stuff. So we talked about that, right? So don’t do some of the, is there anything else that you have seen that really helps with inflammation reduction outside of like, Hey,
Use glass when you can and get a filter on your shower heads and don’t drink from plastic and don’t drink tap water. But are there any other like, hey guys, if you know you’re suffering from inflammation, do one, two, three.
Ben Azadi (37:38)
Yeah.
Yeah, I would say the first thing would be find some schedule of intermittent fasting and start to do some intermittent fasting. know, fasting is the probably the best way to harness this innate intelligence within your body. There’s not a biohack that’s out there that replaces the healing capabilities of fasting. You know, when you’re in a fasted state, your body goes through deep, deep healing. That is because when you’re not fast,
And eating every two to three hours never skipping meals when you’re eating and constantly digesting food it takes a lot of energy Bandwidth blood flow to digest food. That’s why when you ate a huge meal Christmas Thanksgiving whenever it was Your first thought wasn’t okay. I’m ready to record a podcast or get some work done I’m ready to speak on stage. Now your first thought was like, where’s the couch put on the game? Let’s try you turn to a cash potato because all the energy required to digest food Okay, there’s something that happens during a fast around the
Rory & AJ Vaden (38:30)
Yeah.
Ben Azadi (38:37)
14-hour
mark of a fast.
That’s not a long time. 14 hours into a fast. At the 14 hour mark, there’s actually two amazing things that happen. Number one, a process called energy diversion is turned on. Okay, what does that mean? I just shared that it takes a lot of energy to digest food. At the 14 hour mark, meaning 14 hours after your last bite of food, you’ve now completed digestion. So you now divert the energy that was being used for digestion and that energy is now being diverted
to the brain, to your kidneys, to your liver for healing. Okay, this is energy diversion. The second thing that happens at that 14-hour mark is that you start to lower the hormone insulin.
What’s really interesting AJ is that we have over 600 hormones inside of the body. So a lot, but only one hormone signals fat storage and that hormone is called insulin. And anybody who’s overweight right now, it’s because they have high levels of insulin. So what I see a lot of people do when they try to lose weight, they go on chat GPT or YouTube or Google university and they type the words, how do I lose weight? What’s the best diet for weight loss? Wrong question.
The question should be, what’s the best way to lower insulin? Fasting is the best way to lower insulin. Every hour after that 14 hour mark, you start to lower insulin more more and more. once you get into more different types of fasting, like 16 hours and 18 hours, you get other benefits that occur. But I think a 14 hour fast, most people can do, let me lay this out for you real quick. That means if you’re done eating your dinner at,
6 p.m. Last bite of food, 6 p.m. You go to bed that night, right? So you use your sleeping window as a fasting window. Then you wait until 8 a.m. the next morning to break that fast. That’s a 14-hour fast, right? It’s totally doable for a lot of people, right? And just by doing that one thing, you will lower inflammation. You’ll have more energy.
you’ll have less brain fog, more mental bandwidth, and you’ll start to burn fat. Now, if you could take that 14 hours and increase that to 18 hours per day with a six hour eating window and do that consistently, you’re gonna even increase those benefits and lower inflammation even more.
Rory & AJ Vaden (41:02)
Y’all like, I have to admit because you know, in my earlier years, it’s like, like we would still make fun of people who would eat early. And now that we are more educated, we’re like five PMers. And it’s like, we’re, it’s us and all the 95 year old people in the restaurant. But it’s like, it’s because of that right there. It’s like, what we have noticed, maybe it’s an age thing, maybe it’s a knowledge thing. Maybe it’s God’s wisdom showing up in our lives as we open our eyes to it, but it’s like,
Ben Azadi (41:15)
Thank
Rory & AJ Vaden (41:30)
I used to laugh so hard about early bird special, but it’s like, I’m like, there’s something to this. It’s like the longer you wait between eating and going to bed and resting, your body has more time to regenerate and renew itself. And when you’re eating at 9 PM or 8 PM even, and then you’re eating again at 6 AM and 7 AM, like your body gets an arrest.
Ben Azadi (41:52)
Right. Yeah, you know.
Rory & AJ Vaden (41:54)
Where were these messages like 20 years ago? And I’m so glad we have them now, but it’s like, yeah, it’s like, here’s the best part. No one wants reservations at 5.30. You can all take what want.
Ben Azadi (41:56)
Yeah.
That’s
The more popular restaurants, you’ll get a table because it’s only you and those 80, 90 year olds like you said, right? I’m, I’m, I’m.
Rory & AJ Vaden (42:14)
Yeah, I’m here.
I’m all about it. I can’t. I’ll get into all the hot restaurants at five p.m. But yeah, like those those are little things that really do matter. And I love that. And I love just like the fact the facts here around intermittent fasting. We practice that in our household. And I love that. I didn’t realize that it was like that 14th hour. Right. And that’s really fascinating of like it’s not just intermittent fasting. It’s like, no, like, can you make it 14 hours and then stop?
Ben Azadi (42:33)
Yeah.
Rory & AJ Vaden (42:41)
So even having that demarcation for all of us who practice that or who are thinking about it, it’s like there’s an hour. Now, one of the things, because you’ve mentioned it a couple of times casually, what do you think are also the healing elements about the spiritual components with fasting?
Ben Azadi (42:58)
Well, know fasting is in every religion. Religions don’t agree to do a lot of different religions, but they all agree on fasting. Every religion practices some form of fasting. Once you start going to deeper levels of fasting, and what I mean by that long fast, like I’ve done five day water fast, three day water fast, I do 24 hour fast almost every week. Once you go three days and beyond, there’s a connection to God that
It’s hard to put into words. have to just do it to kind of experience it. part of there’s a science behind this where your brain produces something called brain derived neurotropic factor. It’s like miracle growth of the brain. So you’re more creative. You’re more alert. This is great for like book writing, deep, deep work. You’re just so focused because you just remove all that interference. And this kind of happens around that 72 hour mark of a fast three days. But the reason why I believe every religion practices it in the Bible, of course, mentioned
many times is because they didn’t know about BDNF back then but they knew you remove all the interference and then you you connect to your source you connect to your creator you connect to God.
And I experienced that when I do these long fasts. when you, if anybody who watches this or listens to this does a long fast like that, you will notice that same thing. It’s such an incredible experience. And that’s the reason why I believe every religion teaches it because you just, it’s one of the best ways to remove that interference completely and just tap into this incredible source, God, to help you just be present and alert. And I’m telling you, like for book writing, it’s, it’s phenomenal thing for, any author out there.
Rory & AJ Vaden (44:34)
I love that. And I think that’s, I think it’s a good reminder to all of us who practice fasting or who share the Christian faith. It’s like, we’re called to it. Like we’re called to fast. And I think it’s a really important part of like, there’s this physical healing, but then there’s spiritual healing and connection. And those are interconnected, right?
So I love that and I think that’s really great. Okay, I know that we’re coming up on time and I promised we would be short on this, but okay, at last, two couple of quick, like hot topic questions and then we’ll kind of cut this. I could probably talk for three more hours on this because I’m so personally interested. And if you guys who are listening are thinking, yeah, me too, there’s a couple of different things that I just wanna encourage one of them.
is that Ben has mentioned several times his book, Metabolic Freedom, but that’s not his only book. So I would just encourage everyone, go to his website, benazati.com. We’ll put it in the show notes so that you don’t misspell it. But I would just encourage you to go there, check out his book, Metabolic Freedom, check out all of his other books. Also go to his podcast, Keto Camp. Ben, is there a favorite place for people to go if they want to follow you on social media?
Ben Azadi (45:44)
Yeah, thank you for that. My website’s great, great resource, but in terms of my favorite place on social media, we put out a new podcast on YouTube every day, every single day. Weekends included, holidays included, every day. So I would say if you want a brand new episode on our YouTube channel, that’s where you go. Just type in my name, Ben Azzotti on YouTube, you’ll it pop right up.
Rory & AJ Vaden (46:06)
And then we’ll put all of these in the show notes. also has this amazing course that you guys can purchase, which is Metabolic Freedom. We’ll put that in there as well. There’s a lot of things going on. you’re going, yeah, but I need more. Then he’s got the resources. He’s got the book. He’s got the podcast. He’s got the course. So we’ll put all of that in there, but the central place is just go to his website. Last couple of quick questions. To you, what does metabolic freedom mean beyond just physical health?
Ben Azadi (46:31)
Well, it’s the way God built the body. it’s the metabolic freedom is functioning the way God built the human body. And it’s beyond physical health beyond beyond way beyond that. It’s actually so it’s more important to have a mental six pack than a physical six pack. When you are mentally and metabolically healthy, you are living on purpose with your purpose. You are thriving. You are your truest personality. You are functioning and operating the way God designed you.
That is just such an incredible feeling and a lot of people don’t function that way. A lot of people are just surviving. They’re like Earl Nightingale used to say, most people tiptoe their way through life hoping to make it safely to death. I don’t want that life. I know you don’t want it AJ and I don’t want it for anybody watching or listening. So when you get healthy inside out, and I really believe it starts with your thoughts and your mental health before even the physical changes. When you get healthy, you’re just operating the way God designed.
unique to you, unique to your goals and your purpose, which is such a beautiful thing. I have found that for myself and I want that for every single person on the planet because that’s the way we were designed to thrive. And that’s what metabolic freedom and mental freedom means to me.
Rory & AJ Vaden (47:40)
I love that. It’s so good. And it’s so true. Okay, two last questions. You wrote this book, but you didn’t have to. You had all this knowledge, but you didn’t have to put it in a book. Why did you decide to not only write this book, you have four books, but why books? Like what was it that made you go, I feel called to do that?
Ben Azadi (48:01)
Yeah, as you know, as an author, and you teach a lot of people to be successful authors.
There’s something to having a book. There’s such a huge authority piece to having a book. You can hand people a business card or tell them your website or your socials and that’s great. But when you have a book that you could hand them or reference, there’s authority there. And I wanted to create a book like Metabolic Freedom. The reason why I wrote this book specifically, this book is not a niche book. It’s not a book that goes deep into the science.
It definitely has signs, but it was written for the masses. It was written for you to understand how your body works, simple swaps you could make. Here’s a 30-day plan. I wanted to write something that appealed to the masses, that made a dent in what we see the disease out there. I want to make a dent in the disease. So whatever problem we see out there that you see out there for those watching and listening, I think it’s so great to have a book as a solution, a book that somebody could read or listen to or reference as a solution. And that’s the reason why
I wrote this book, it’s the reason why I’m already writing my next book. I think it’s such an incredible thing to have and gets you on, I mean we could talk more about it, it gets you on stages, it gets you more interviews, it’s like there’s so many things to it that AJ could just teach you for hours. But you know, for me, I wanted to have a resource for the masses and I believe that I accomplished that with MetaBolt Freedom.
Rory & AJ Vaden (49:21)
Yeah, I would second that. I really do believe it’s a calling to write a book. A lot of people have information to share, but it’s a calling and it’s a discipline to write a book. But to that point, it creates a document that you can give to people, right? And people who find value in it gives. there’s something tangible about a book that…
The ever greenness of it just seems to way outlast a podcast or social media post or a blog. and I think that’s really meaningful and impactful and it’s a lot of work, right? And that’s a great reminder to all of you who listening, who are getting all of your health tips from Tik TOK or Instagram or YouTube. It’s like the amount of time that we prep. I can just say for me, it’s like, do 15 minutes prep for a podcast, five years of prep for a book.
So if you think about the depth and the knowledge and the time that you put into a book versus a social post or a podcast, it’s extraordinarily different. And so put some weight into like what actual books are you reading? Real expertise, real wisdom, especially when it comes to your health and making sure you’re not just listening to the latest TikTok influencer, but you’re actually getting real expertise and experience. All right, then last question. ⁓
Ben Azadi (50:32)
Yes.
Rory & AJ Vaden (50:34)
This is a totally personal question for everyone who’s listening, who really resonates with what you said today. And they’ve been on the struggle bus and they are struggling with obesity or overweight. but they know like I’m doing all these things and I’m trying and you know, all the things that you probably felt and that I have felt in the past too. What would you say is their very first next step after listening to this conversation?
Ben Azadi (50:58)
I would say, you know, what needs to change is the, your self image, the way you view yourself at a subconscious level. you can make all the conscious decisions to change, do keto fasting, all the things you heard today, but you’ll find a way to sabotage yourself. If you don’t change it at a subconscious level, it’s the way you view yourself, your self image, chapter 10 of metabolic freedom gets into this, but I will say this. One of the things I recommend in chapter 10 that I’ll recommend now is my answer is to on a, a card, a index card, a piece of paper, write down that
new version of yourself, the new image of yourself. Write it down in present tense. Thank God for it, that this is the way that I would recommend it. I would say, I’m so happy and grateful now that, and then you write this beautiful new self image of yourself. So if you’re overweight, the self image would be, I’m so happy and grateful now that I’m at my perfect weight. I’m healthy. I have optimal energy levels. The perfect health I seek is now seeking me. I remove blockages between us. Glory to God for helping me achieve optimal health.
You write that down and you read it every single day, every single morning, right before bed. You do that for 30 days. And what happens is now you start to put this new idea into the subconscious mind. It replaces the old idea. And then you become unstoppable. You no longer sabotage yourself. You start to get some serious momentum. So that would be my tip. Write down that new image, read it every day, at least for 30 days and watch what it does to change your life.
Rory & AJ Vaden (52:20)
So good. So, so good. This has been amazing. Thank you guys so much. Please everyone check out the show notes. We will put all the places where you can get the book, listen to the podcast, follow Ben on social and let’s start 2026 out on the right foot, which is getting healthy inside out. Thanks everyone for listening. We’ll see you next time on the wealthy and well-known podcast.
WWK Ep 012: From Rainmaker to Revenue Machine: How to Build a Sales Team That Wins Without You
Speaker 1 (00:00)
If you can’t sell, your business is dead. If you can’t sell, your dream is dead. If you can’t sell, you can’t staff your team. If you can’t sell, you can’t create technology. If you can’t sell, you don’t have a business. So to me, I agree with you that sales
as the heartbeat of the culture is first and foremost.
If you as the owner or entrepreneur founder disappeared from your business for 30 days, would sales continue or would they stall? That’s what we’re talking about on today’s episode. How to scale your sales, how to grow your revenue, how to close deals without a founder dependent or CEO or leader dependent company. Welcome back to the Wealthy and Well-Known Podcast. This is where we teach you how to grow your influence, your income.
so that you can make a bigger impact in the world. I joined by my business partner, my wife, my best friend and co-host, AJ Vaden.
Speaker 2 (01:02)
All right, what are we gonna talk about?
Speaker 1 (01:04)
Let’s do this. So we’re talking about scaling sales without it being dependent on you and you are the CEO of brand brand builders group. We have an eight figure business. How have we done that without having you involved in doing sales calls? So I guess I would open by just wanting to hear some of your philosophies about when do you think is the right time for the CEO founders to be doing sales calls? How do we
pull you out and when did we pull you out and maybe just share some of that story.
Speaker 2 (01:35)
This is very short, answer.
you’re here. ⁓ I don’t have to do all the sales calls you are, but that’s a unique benefit of being in a partnership. Now, what I would say is, ⁓ you know, that’s, that’s simply the conversation and the transition from startup to established, right? In the very beginning, you and I both were taking sales calls, but so is our whole team. I think one of the things that a lot of people miss when it comes to entrepreneurship or starting a new company is like sales is
how you grow, right? It’s like you’re not gonna cut your way to success. You have to grow your way to success. And I think a lot of people think somehow they should outgrow sales and every company should have a sales minded culture. Sales is not a department. Sales is not a task. Like sales is a mindset. Sales is a culture that has to be grown and established within a company. And it starts with the founder, right? And it’s like, if the founder wants to get out
selling or they think selling is beneath them. Well, as the leader goes, so does everyone else. And they think, sales, a sales position is a stepping stone. It’s like, no sales is the cornerstone of companies in order to grow and scale or just to survive. Right. We talked about this in a recent episode, how 90 % of all small businesses fail within the first 10 years. And most of them, it’s most of them, not all of them, most
some of is they run out of money. Some of it is they get burnt out and they just don’t want to do it anymore. But for the most part, that’s not it. They run out of runway, i.e. revenue. And that’s because they didn’t have a sales-focused culture or a sales-minded group of people. So in my opinion, it’s like even though I have phased out of taking sales calls on a formal role, I take sales calls anytime that’s needed. Right? It’s like…
I will make time in my calendar. mean, we’re fairly established. We’re seven years in a brain builders group, but at our former entity, I still had the predominant amount of time on my schedule. Even 13 years later was generating leads and making sales calls. It was a sales mindset. And even today it’s like, have leads in my calendar right now that I will make time for. Right. And so that is still a part of what my role is. It’s still what has attention and
It’s just not my main attention and focus as we have built up a group of people now the unique part of our dynamic is that I have a partner right a you know a husband and a spouse who also carries the weight and some of those and I think that’s when if you don’t have that in a Partnership then at some point you’ve got to hire a sales minded leader to help build up that sales culture But I think this is just as an important question for you because you know we made the decision or
on in our business, I was going to take on the operations, finance, administrative parts of the business and that you would take on more of the sales and marketing. And it hasn’t been until really the last year, two years, so five years into the business that we’ve really started stepping you out of that.
Speaker 1 (04:52)
Yeah, and it’s interesting because I think our roles almost flipped from our first company to our second company. In our first company, I was more behind the scenes creating the strategy operations, et cetera, and you were the top revenue producer in Brand Builders Group. Those roles have flipped. One thing I will say directly that I think is a lie and a mistake and crappy advice that people get is they say, hey, if you want to build a great business, all you have to do is build a great product. I don’t believe that.
I can share with you countless examples of friends and stories that we’ve heard of people who have amazing products and the businesses crash because they never learn how to sell. If you can’t sell, your business is dead. If you can’t sell, your dream is dead. If you can’t sell, you can’t staff your team. If you can’t sell, you can’t create technology. If you can’t sell, you don’t have a business. So to me, I agree with you that sales
as the heartbeat of the culture is first and foremost. And we’re living through this right now. Last year was one of our toughest years, probably our single toughest year in sales that we’ve had, I would say in seven years. And so it is like an all recommitment back to sales. It’s like nothing else matters. Like if we can’t fix the front door of the company and create the conversions and the lead flow that we need, literally nothing else matters. ⁓
So sales gives life to everything and that’s a commitment and decision you gotta make. And I think most founders and CEOs are sort of reluctant. Like sales is like the necessary evil we have to do or that’s like the grunt work that like those people over there do or I’m above selling or like if our product’s so good, we shouldn’t have to sell it.
Speaker 2 (06:40)
I would just add one to that. think a lot of founders and CEOs, they think that sales is the first thing that they should get off their plate. And it’s not even that. I mean, I think some people do think sales is beneath them and now I’m the owner, I’m the founder, I’m an executive. it’s like, and your number one job is revenue. That’s what it means to be the owner. It’s like you create the revenue to actually provide for your company and your team that is your number
one role. But what I see more often is people go, ⁓ this is the first thing to get off my plate to outsource, to delegate, to hire for. And our philosophy is and has always been sales is never the first thing. It’s the last thing. It’s the last thing that you let go of as a founder. It’s not the first thing, right? The first thing is all the very menial, mundane, repetitive, easy to train tasks.
But sales is what you hold on to until the very, very end. So you know that there is a system. You know there’s a process. It’s documented. It’s trainable. You know that there is something that you can pass it off to someone. You’re tracking the stats and you have all of that in place. It’s the last thing, not the first thing.
Speaker 1 (07:55)
Now,
I think if someone’s out there asking why is sales the last thing or one of the last things that should come off the founder’s plate, if you don’t know the answer to that question, then there’s an important lesson you need to learn about sales, which is that sales is a transference of emotion. Sales is a transference of conviction. At the end of the day, sales is an emotional part of the business and the human connection. And that emotion radiates most powerfully
from the founder. So a founder should have higher conversion rates because it’s their life, it’s their mission, it’s inherently connected to who they are and why they exist in the world. And to some extent, you can transfer that to other people, but it typically never is quite as concentrated or as passionate from the founder. And so that is why I think we have to hang on to it.
Speaker 2 (08:47)
And just to add to that, think one of the other things is some of the hardest things for people to transfer our stories. And one of the reasons that I think it’s so important that it’s the last thing that a founder lets go of is no one has the story recall like the founder. Why we started all the testimonials, the client success stories, the trials, the successes, they are the repository for the entire company history.
And a lot of people don’t take the time to sit, record, tell, and train. They just don’t. They expect somebody that they hire who has a lot of sales skills, and I’m using bunny ears with that, are gonna be able to come in and just do what they do.
They don’t, they can’t because they don’t have the entire story recall that the founder does. They don’t have the recollection of, when this happened and when this happened and this story and this thing, ⁓ those things have to be documented.
Speaker 1 (09:50)
You said
the backstory of why we started the company, how we started the company. There’s no way they have that unless you tell it and.
Speaker 2 (09:58)
Tell
it and tell it again and again and again and it’s documented so that somebody else until they have their own stories can borrow your stories. And again, that is a training process but requires documentation and time and most people skip that.
Speaker 1 (10:15)
Let’s walk people through then to go, okay, don’t rush to outsource sales. I think that’s our first kind of point here, but to go, all right, then when, let’s talk through, when do you start outsourcing sales? How do you start outsourcing sales? Why does outsourcing sales fail? And what needs to happen, I think, to outsource sales to somebody else effectively. So.
When do you think is the right time to have this conversation? If we’re saying it should be kind of like the last thing, how do you know when is the right time to start looking at training someone or someone’s outside of the founder to sell?
Speaker 2 (10:56)
In my opinion, this is basic laws of economics. It’s supply and demand. Like at some point when you have gotten off every single thing off of your plate that can be delegated, that can be trained to someone else that doesn’t have such a risk factor involved. And again, I just want to encourage everyone. One of the reasons we say it’s last is it has the most risk, right? If you outsource it and it doesn’t work, it fails and someone else doesn’t follow through or they bail.
Speaker 1 (11:27)
Company’s over.
Speaker 2 (11:28)
It’s catastrophic. And now you’re back in sales as the founder with everything else. Right? There are other things though that are easily or easier, but in my opinion, easily transferable that are just less, less risky. Right? So I think if you’re following the basic laws of economics, supply and demand, it’s when there is more demand on your calendar than you have supply. And that is after you have gotten off all of the administrative, all of the
operations, all of the personal tasks that can be, you know, removed or, you know, replaced with technologies, automation, outsource contractors, agencies, fractional teams, whatever, full-time employees, it doesn’t matter. But once those are all done and then there’s just so many calls on your calendar that you can’t handle it, then you start, then you start adding people in. But again, you don’t take it all off your calendar. You don’t take it all off your
plate, you gradually do that. And it’s like, okay, now I’m going to gradually start taking some of these sales calls off my calendar because that’s a part of training, right? It’s not like you hire someone, you go great. 100 % of what was on my plate is now on yours. Good luck, go team, go. That’s not how it works. And so I think it’s a gradual process. Once everything else has been outsourced, delegated, automated, eliminated, you know, referring to the focus funnel.
Speaker 1 (12:54)
Shout out to Procrastinating on Purpose, second book. It’s a good one. It does, it covers a lot of these emotions.
Speaker 2 (13:00)
But then and only then do you start the gradual process of backfilling for sales.
Speaker 1 (13:08)
And I would
say like, we’re, I feel a little bit like we’re living this right now because we did have a tougher year in revenue last year. And it’s like, what is Rory doing in this year? I’m back in sales and it’s like, I’m waking up all day, every day. And I go at the end of the day, you know, people joke about, you’re the janitor. You take the trash out. And it’s like, that’s not the thing that saves the company. Sales is the thing that saves the company. And you go, if, if, if somebody doesn’t wake up and say, I’m going to go generate leads.
then everybody’s job is in trouble. And so I view myself even today, you know, this is our second eight figure business. We’re now seven years into brand builders group as the rainmaker, right? So ultimately in the beginning, we’re doing sales calls like, and we’re actually like closing sales.
Even now, I still close some sales, but in general, I’m like, my job is to bring in leads and to create lead flow and a cascade of warm leads. And to your point, supply and demand, where I go where I don’t have another minute on my calendar to take a call. Now I start passing them to the team. And now we have full time sales team that we’re trying to fill up. And then, and then, you know, I think
the mature, you know, that phase one is you’re doing the lead generation and the selling yourself. Phase two is you get like one person who can just basically handle the overflow of your leads. And then the more advanced stages are, can I train other people to be the rainmakers and can we generate other lead sources outside of me? Because if I am the sole lead generator,
then the company is also at a big risk and a big liability if something were to happen to me.
Speaker 2 (14:57)
But I think comes back to one of the first things we talked about, is sales as a cultural component, sales as a mindset, and it doesn’t live with a person. It doesn’t live within a department. You have to have a company. You have to have a culture where everyone has leads on their mind. Everyone has revenue on their mind. Doesn’t matter if it’s in customer service, operations, finance, marketing. It’s like everyone is looking at leads in two different ways.
How do I bring them in and how do I keep the ones I have? It’s two very distinct things, but that means everyone is involved in revenue generation and revenue retention. Yes. And I was going to call it revenue protection. Protection because everyone plays a role. And if you think you don’t, well, you’re severely mistaken. And that is part of the founder’s job to communicate. No, every role is tied to revenue.
Speaker 1 (15:42)
that we’re having a new
On this note of every role is tied to revenue. think particularly like if you’re in a small business and you just think like say you’re an operational person and you’re you think I want to raise and you go why because I’ve been here a long time because I’m good at what I do because I work hard. All good reasons you should get a raise. The most practical thing that’s going to drive whether or not you get a raise
is if you contribute to revenue coming in the door, and if the revenue of the entire company is growing. If the revenue of the company is not growing, then no matter how valuable you are and how important you are, there’s not a magic pot of money that we just go, we like you, you’re so great, here’s some money, right? It’s like, we have to grow revenue. It’s different maybe when you’re in private, you have a company that’s owned by private equity and these giant corporations that just have like, you know,
They’re willing to go massively into debt and they have all these different ways of banks and stuff to finance. It’s not most American businesses. And so most American businesses live and die by revenue, including your job, no matter what position you’re in. So to your point about everybody needs to care about this, that’s how you get a raise. It’s like you’re either bringing a customer in or you’re keeping a customer.
Speaker 2 (16:54)
That’s not most American.
It’s rather you’re generating revenue or you’re protecting the revenue, but every role is tied to revenue
Speaker 1 (17:14)
So let’s talk now about actually the function of outsourcing sales. So we go, okay, it’s time once there is enough demand generated, there’s an overflow of leads. So what’s the first thing we do ⁓ when we step into that? it could be six months in, it could be a year in, it could be five years in, but whenever…
we go, there’s more leads than I can keep up with. What’s the first thing we go out and do? How do we start thinking about what are the mission critical essential things to scale revenue beyond the founder?
Speaker 2 (17:52)
Number one, you document the process of what do you do to convert a lead into a customer. that whole, again, I think this is a huge mistake that people make, not just in sales, but just in business, is they lack processes. They lack documentation and they think if I just hire someone else, they’ll know what to do. No.
Speaker 1 (17:56)
Heck yes.
Speaker 2 (18:14)
I don’t know where this mysterious belief came from, but it’s like, no, your company is unique. Your systems are unique. Your processes are unique. your products are different and the way you sell them is different. We’re all different. And so you have to go, this is how we sell here. So bring the skills that you’ve learned, bring the knowledge that you have, and then let’s adapt those into how we sell here, what story we tell here. And that is how you have done it, which means you have to sit down and go, okay,
When I have customers, what do I say? What questions do I ask? One of the easiest ways to do that is just to record yourself.
Speaker 1 (18:52)
Yeah. So, so before you dive into like the recording and the train, the materials, I just really want to edify and underscore what you said there. We tend to think that a person will be our savior if there’s an issue or like a company and it’s like, we need help. And it’s like, no, it’s the process. You need the process because if you do get lucky and you find a unicorn who can just step in and take off and like run.
Speaker 2 (19:07)
I need help. hear about all of I just need help.
Speaker 1 (19:20)
Now you’re vulnerable to that person ⁓ leaving, which is what a founder is. The founder is like, it’s great for the founder to have passion, but if we don’t document the processes in the founder’s head, the whole company is vulnerable to something happened to that founder. So documenting the process that we take people through and what happens at each stage in each step is truly number one. And I think it is not something people think about. It’s the opposite of how people think in the world.
Speaker 2 (19:51)
Yeah, I think one of the things that we’ve learned, our prior company was a sales consulting and sales training company, so we have a lot to say about this. This is really all I did for companies for 13 years. This is it. All day, every day, I was thinking about what is your sales process? ⁓ How do you open? How do you close? What questions do you ask in between? Like this is all I did. And it is a severely missed thing, small business or corporate big business. ⁓
the board it’s amazing to me how many companies purely have no consistent process and it just totally depends on who you talk to with what’s going to be said today because there isn’t a consistent theme of what questions do we know are the most important to ask.
What are the pieces of information we need to get from the prospective client to know if they’re the right fit for us? Because not everyone is. And it’s like those things are severely undervalued in the importance of having a process that gives a consistent experience prospect to prospect, which is a part of how you create consistent revenue flow is that.
Everyone goes through the same process. Why? Because then you can figure out what works and what doesn’t. Who’s the ideal client? Who’s not? Because we’re all doing the same thing. But if no one’s doing the same thing, then some people get sold something very different than the next person, even though it’s the same product, same service, same company.
Speaker 1 (21:19)
I mean, what I just heard you say there is a consistent process precedes consistent revenue.
Speaker 2 (21:27)
100%.
Speaker 1 (21:29)
Totally. And I think one of the mistakes you got to watch out for when you’re making that transition from the founder or whatever, the executive leader, CEO selling to somebody else is because of the passion and because of the backstory and because of the things that we said earlier about why you don’t push sales off until the last kind of possible moment, founders can typically talk more in a sales conversation.
and sell more because they have so much passion. If your salespeople come on and all they do is talk, talk, talk, you’re gonna lose sales. So when you are saying you have to figure out questions, what are the right questions to ask? One of our big beliefs is that you are selling when they are talking in professional salesmanship, in true scalable revenue with true systems and true processes. And so I think
under like figuring out what those questions are is a really important first step. Now you said record yourself. So go back, go back to that and pick up from there.
Speaker 2 (22:37)
Yeah. And I’ll, and I’ll just add this in, like one of the things that I have seen over my 20 years in sales has been you can take a top performing salesperson at another organization and bring them into yours and with no process, no system, no way of doing things. And they’ll be a C player and a heartbeat. They’ll go from being a top producing performer somewhere else, which is why you hired them and you expect them to come in and just figure it out. And they went from a top performing to an average or below average performing person.
overnight and you think it’s them. It’s not them. Right? You can do the same thing. You can take someone who’s never been in sales, put them through a proper process with the right scripts, the right training, the right accountability and turn them into a top performing person because you’re like, I know this works here. How do I know? Cause I’ve been doing it for the last this many years and I have documented it. And I know if you ask this and you say this and it’s this type of person, this is what’s going to happen. There’s predictability in it.
Now there’s a numbers part of that too, but that is the power of a process, specifically in sales, but not only in sales. So yeah, so how do you start building that process is you just start recording yourself.
Speaker 1 (23:48)
So on this note, so there’s a metaphor that we use, by the way, we, one of our courses is called scale your sales. It’s in our phase four curriculum. For those of you that are members, you have access to that. We walk you through the eight S’s of creating a predictable revenue inside any organization. But one of the metaphors that we use, which you’re touching on here is we talk about the seed and the soil, right? So the environment is the soil and you got to have great processes. You can take a healthy seed.
That is a perfect seed, but if it’s placed in the wrong soil, it will not grow. Right. And likewise, if you have great soil, but you have the wrong seed, it won’t grow. so part of the trick with sales is going, I need to find the right seed, the right type of person for what we do. And then most importantly, I need to create the right environment for them to flourish. And when you do that, you get, that’s where the exponential growth happens. ⁓ so finding, finding those people is, a huge, huge part. Okay. So pick up, pick up. So you’re recording.
This is step one of creating a sales process starts with you recording yourself.
Speaker 2 (24:52)
Now what I would say today is very different than what I would have said two years ago or even a year ago because of the emergence of AI right and this makes it inexcusable for you not to have a process today like what would have taken a company months and a lot of money to pay me to do right so I’m glad I’m not doing that anymore because I would have been like you don’t even need me like there’s a part of that where it’s like yeah pay for some strategy but literally
what would have cost companies tens of thousands of dollars and months of their time, I could probably now whip out for someone in 48 hours because of AI. there is no excuse. It’s inexcusable. So what I would do is I would take 10 sales calls that I, the founder, have actually done myself. I would take at least five that have gone as ideal as possible.
Speaker 1 (25:29)
Because of AI.
like normal.
Speaker 2 (25:48)
Normal,
right? So not the weird outliers or this, this, that, but ideally those five would have also been yeses, right? Then I’m gonna take two that resulted in a outlier type of situation, but somehow came back into, okay, that was a little unique, but this is where we landed, right? So that gets you to seven. And then I would take three where they were clearly not a fit.
Right? And how do you know they’re in a fit? They said no, they did not buy. That’s how you know they were in a fit. But I would take 10, right? And that’s how I would get to the 10. I would take each of those recordings. I would have them transcribed. And then I would upload those into your preferred AI model, chat, GBT, Claw, Gemini, whatever you use, doesn’t matter. And then you gotta have a really good healthy prompt. And the first thing you would do is you have to ask yourself, what are the parts of a sales script? Right? So you have to know that.
Right? So this is where people would still actually pay for sales consulting today is, we don’t know that. Right? But what’s the strategy that I’m actually looking for? You can’t just say, hey, listen to these and create me a sales script. Right. That’s not how it works. That’s where AI doesn’t help you. You humans still have to have the strategy of what do I want you to do? Then AI is the expedition to
Speaker 1 (27:01)
which by the way, if you are a brand builders member, you have access to brand bot, which is everything we teach. One of our bots is called Sales Script Bot. It has already been trained on all the principles that we teach in our service centered methodology. And so it will take your entire brand memory of all the other things you’ve been uploading and it will automatically create you a custom script for your business.
based on our expertise on top of it and it will give you that structure and that’s one of the reasons we created the tool is AI can’t just really whip that part out but either way it’d still be much better than nothing. You could still get much further than you could, know, decade ago.
Speaker 2 (27:41)
Sales script bot is unique for members for all non members. I think this is this is really important It’s like you have to have this strategy to know what to do and then you have to tell it and so let’s talk about what are the parts of a script right and some people don’t like the word script call it outline guidelines talk tracks, whatever Don’t get hung up on the words. I’m gonna use script because it’s the easiest thing to do And the first thing is you have to have an opening Right. It’s like what and it asked it to evaluate of these ten sales calls. Find me. What are the costs?
common themes in my opening, right? So how do you actually start the conversation? That could be a sentence, a paragraph, it could be one minute, it could be five minutes, but what are the components of how I open in my sales calls? Part two is what are the most common and the most impactful questions that I ask that elicit responses that lead to a sale?
Right? And again, this is, this is a part of your expedition process. This doesn’t mean this is going to be what it is. It’s like what you’re looking for here. What are the common themes? What are the common practices? What are the commonalities amongst all the people that I talked to that happen on a recurring basis? Now, if you find there are none, well then you’re, then you’ve got to use this own process of going, well maybe that’s why I have really inconsistent sales. I don’t do anything the same. Huh.
Speaker 1 (28:54)
You’re trouble.
Speaker 2 (29:05)
And I would say also if you’re a salesperson who’s listening to this, I would also say this practice isn’t just for founders. This is for salespeople too. Anyone who is generating revenue has to be in the art of listening to what you do. This is your craft. This is your skill set.
Speaker 1 (29:21)
or
sales managers building a sales team. I it’s 100%.
Speaker 2 (29:25)
What you have to Imagine a professional sports team going out on the field and they’ve never watched game footage. Or had a play. Imagine. Can you imagine?
Speaker 1 (29:32)
or how to playbook.
Salespeople do that every day.
Speaker 2 (29:37)
In business, it happens all day long, every single day, and that’s why so many people run out of runway. That’s why 90 % of small businesses don’t make it past 10 years. There’s a reason why. They’re not committed to the documentation, to the process. They’re not committed to the playbook. They’re not committed to the practice and the discipline of rinse and repeat, rinse and repeat, make it better, do it again, do it again, do it again. And I think that’s the power of sports.
That’s the power of being on a team is it teaches you like, there’s systems and rhythms. and there’s practice required. Y’all, same for business. Same for business.
Speaker 1 (30:15)
I
think a lot of people don’t realize how much of a science sales is. A lot of people think sales is just like this magic. It’s like you’re a funny person and you’re just like born with this talent to go out and sell. They have no idea how predictive it can be, how tactical, how structured, how it’s something that you can create a process, which is one of the reasons like for us, we’ve been blessed to like
I’m never concerned about sales. I mean, I focus on it, but I’m not worried about it because if our sales aren’t there, I know, oh, all we have to do is recommit to executing this set of fundamentals. And it will work. It’s not the theory of averages. It’s the law of averages. questions. Okay, so let’s talk about questions for a second. So high level, okay. Again, it’s a science for us. We’ve spent a lot of time studying this. And with the people we work with, we go deep, deep, deep. If you’re just starting out,
Speaker 2 (30:59)
to his questions.
Speaker 1 (31:13)
Don’t be too intimidated because at the end of the day, here’s what a sales is. You ask questions about what somebody wants their life to look like, and you ask questions about how does their life look currently now, and what’s the difference between the two. That’s what we call the gap, right? So if you ask them,
what do they want their life to look like or their business to look like or whatever you’re selling, right? Their marriage to look like, their health to look like. You ask them questions that cause them to articulate consciously what they want in their life and then you ask them questions about what their life looks like now. That delta creates the buying zone. That creates the gap. If it’s very clear they want something, they don’t have it and you’re positioned to go, we’re the bridge between those,
That is all of that is all of sales. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:10)
So part two is the questions, right? It’s like, what are the questions that you have to ask for you to determine if they’re a great fit for what you offer, right? And I think that’s an important distinction. These aren’t questions you Let’s talk about this. These aren’t questions you ask to sell them on what you offer.
Speaker 1 (32:25)
So this is a very radical philosophy that you have, we have, that is different. We don’t actually try to sell to every person we talk to. We don’t actually believe that every person should buy from us. Tell them what we actually do believe and what we try to instill in this.
Speaker 2 (32:44)
sales team. Well, I can tell you what I believe. I’m like sure it’s in alignment with what you believe. But I believe it’s like, listen, not everyone is a fit for me and I’m not a fit for everyone. I’m trying to work with an ideal client who I know, who I know because of the way they’ve answered these questions, are well positioned to get results that I know will happen if they do it. But here’s what’s important to me and here’s something that we’re trying to position our sales team. If you sell to everyone and we’re not completely sure that they’re aligned, when they
don’t succeed because they weren’t a fit, because they weren’t going to do the process, it makes us look bad. Right. It’s like all of a sudden their inability to follow through, their inability to commit because we didn’t ask the right questions and we didn’t present it the right way makes us look like we don’t know what we’re doing because they didn’t succeed. I want to work with people who I know will actually get results from our program because when they do get results, guess what happens?
Speaker 1 (33:41)
They were for everybody.
Speaker 2 (33:42)
They
refer everyone and they say, my gosh, this is the best program. It has changed my life. And we say all the time that the best form of marketing on the planet is a changed life. So work with people who you can change their life and they will send people to you, right? Because when you change someone’s life, they can’t help but tell people if you did a pretty good job, if you just like skidded through, no, I ain’t nobody talking about that. But if you go, oh my gosh.
This is amazing. I could not have done this without X, Y, and Z. And it doesn’t matter what it is. Like we’re moving into a new house right now and ⁓ we just got window coverings, right? And I sat through and did the wholesale presentation with the company that did all of our window coverings. And you might think that’s not necessarily a life-changing experience, right? So why would anyone recommend someone who sells window coverings? Like my walking around going, these window coverings have changed my life. No, but every single time someone comes into my house and I’m going like,
Look at how awesome these are. Like, look at this. It’s like, look at this. It’s like, they’re like, who did those? I’m like, and I’m happy to refer them. So am I screaming from the rooftops, window coverings changed my life? No. And at the same token, it’s going like, it was such a simple, easy process. They did what they said they were gonna do. They showed up. They had a simple install. When they found the errors, I didn’t even have to find them. They’re like, hey, just wanna let you know we saw this, we’re on it. We’ve already reordered the pieces. I’m like,
my gosh. That’s, that is customer service. I didn’t even have to go around and do it. They did it for me. So you have to think about it. This isn’t about the mountaintop life changing moments. It’s like, I didn’t even have to do a walkthrough. They found the errors and then they notified me and they’ve already ordered replacements and I didn’t even have to ask for it. That’s amazing.
Speaker 1 (35:32)
And I think if you, if you do sales, right. Sales should not be about pressure and persuasion. Sales should simply be a conversation about collaboration. And that’s something that’s very different. And if you do it that way, takes the pressure off your prospect and it takes the pressure off of you as a salesperson to go, I’m not trying to tuck you into something. I’m trying to discover if we have a match, right? And if we have a match and I know, like if we don’t have a match, I will tell you and say,
Speaker 2 (35:55)
.
Speaker 1 (36:02)
you know what, we’re not the right fit to work together and that’s okay. But if we do have a match, I’m gonna tell you, look, if you’re a mission driven messenger and you want to build your personal brand, we can change your freaking life. That’s what we do here, right? There’s a certain type of person.
Speaker 2 (36:17)
That conviction comes from asking the right questions and when they say the right answers, you’re like ding, ding, ding, ding. That’s right. That’s your choice. that’s part two is questions. Then part three ⁓ is what people would say the presentation, right? But what we would say is the conversation, right? I think a lot of people think sales is a presentation and that’s where they make the mistake. It’s a dialogue, not a monologue. But once you have the questions, now you move into, well, let me tell you what we do, how we do it, and why I think it’s a fit for you based on what you just told me.
me, right? So it’s the opening, right? Your introduction, it’s the questions, then it’s the presentation, right? And inevitably then it’s the questions. In sales, well, right? But I think in a lot of things, the questions can come in two different ways. They ask questions, which a lot of people perceive as objections. And we ask questions, which a lot of people perceive as closing. They’re just questions. Sales is just a series of questions from beginning to end from
Speaker 1 (36:57)
The closing questions.
Speaker 2 (37:16)
How are you today to do you want to give me your credit card? It’s just a series of questions ⁓ that go in a specific order and a flow. So you go from the opening, you go to the questioning, you go to the presenting, and then you go to the questioning, which is just part two of the beginning of the questioning. And it’s rather going to happen in two different flows, whether you’re going to have questions for them, such as, hey, does this seem like it’s a fit for you? Right? Does this fit in your budget?
Or they’re gonna have questions for you like, well, how much is this? How long is it gonna take? What are the payment terms? What are the agreement terms? But questions are gonna happen either way. Ideally, the presentation leads into you asking them a question, which is, based on what you heard today, does this feel like it’s a fit? Right? And then, it’s typically, people are gonna go, well, depends. How much is it? What are the timelines? And again,
Don’t get caught up in the idea of now it’s time to close or now I have to be prepared for objections. It’s just a conversation that continues with questions to drive people to a yes or a no. And I think that’s our big goal when it comes to sales, whether it’s the founder or it’s a brand new person who’s just entering into sales. The entire point of this entire conversation is to bring people to a point of decision. That is it. And I think it’s a successful sale.
If you get a yes, in my opinion, it’s a successful sale. If you get a no, the only unsuccessful sales conversations to me are water left open ended, which is that maybe follow up with me in three months. That is unsuccessful. A yes is good. A no is good. A maybe no good.
Speaker 1 (39:02)
Yeah, so if you are listening to this going, need help creating a sales process, either for myself, for my team to scale or just to find one person to take extra leads off your plate. If you get a free brand call.com forward slash podcast, that’s free brand call.com forward slash podcast. We’ll do our first call with you for free.
Again, we just wanna do, we’re gonna have a conversation with you and try to understand where you’re at and see if we can help you. And that’s what we’re here for, is to help you grow your impact and your income. That’s why we have the podcast. Before we land the plane, we’ve got our community question segment that we need to answer. This is a chance where our members, our active members in our program get to ask a question to submit to me and AJ to answer here on the podcast.
Speaker 2 (39:56)
All right, y’all. So here’s the question. I’ve scaled to seven figures, but I still feel like I’m the only one who can actually close sales. I’ve got a small sales team, but unless I’m on the call, things stall. How do I get my sales team to sell without me micromanaging every move? What a pertinent question. And I have to be honest, we did not know this was the question before we started, or at least I didn’t.
But here’s my answer to that. The very first thing that I would do to whoever asked this question would be ask yourself an honest question. Do you have a documented sales process?
Speaker 1 (40:34)
starts with having the documented process, and then you got to coach to it, you got to train to it, you got to hold accountable to it. So one of the things that we’ve done internally and ⁓ also have made available to our members is we created SalesGraderBot, where we upload the manuscript of what the sales talk.
is or the the the talk track of what it’s supposed to be and then you can upload the transcript of a recording of what a sales call actually was and then it will compare the two and it will grade each of the segments of the call that we talked about in this interview and it will give recommendations. So whether you have a tool to do that like we use and built or you’re doing it manually the point is you have to have a process and then you have to train and manage and hold accountable to that process.
Speaker 2 (41:21)
So I would say…
Once you ask yourself the first question is, do you have a documented sales process? If in your heart of hearts, you can go, I do, I really do. Then the question is, are you actually managing your sales team? Which means, are you actually listening to their calls? Are you auditing recordings? Are you sitting down with them going, you see this process and you see what you’re doing? They don’t line up. Because if you had a true process that you use and you go, well, I know it works. Like, I know it does. So then the question is, are they using it?
And if you’re not auditing calls and you’re not sitting down and listening to recordings and then coaching them, that would be the second question. It’s like, if you really have a sales process and you’re like, I did that, but it’s not working unless you’re on the call, then they’re likely not using it. Not because they’re defiant or they don’t want to. It’s like, people get off track. It’s like squirrel, rabbit, I forgot. yeah, I need to come back to that. So it’s, do you have one? And then are they using it?
Those would be the two things I would go back and reflect on as the founder or the sales manager. And in order to know that you have to have recordings, you have to audit them, and then you have to sit down and listen to them with your sales team. Pull up your sales process, pull up your scripts, listen, and go minute by minute. Yes, that feels like micromanaging. That’s not a bad thing. That’s also called training and coaching. Pull it up minute by minute and go make sure what they’re doing and what you have on paper actually match.
Speaker 1 (42:49)
To use the analogy that you used earlier, every professional athlete watches film and the coach pauses it and says, right here, do you see where you went this way? You should have gone that way. That is not what amateurs do. That’s what professionals do. Professionals get into the minute details of accountability. They have professional coaching. They get into the nitty gritty of not this, this.
and they do it again and again and again and again. So if you wanna be paid like a professional, you need to act like a professional. Professionals have coaches. If you need a coach, that’s part of what we do. You want your people to perform like professionals, they need a coach. That’s a part of what you have got to do. And that’s a reason to keep coming back and listen to this show every single week and share this episode with your team or anyone who you think should hear it.
Thanks for being a part of the wealthy and well-known podcast and a part of the brand builders group community. We’ll see you next time.
WWK Ep 011: Credibility vs. Virality: Why Trust Builds Businesses and Trends Don’t
Rory: [00:00:00] They take a viral video and they copy it, they replicate [00:00:05] it. They literally regurgitate it. They go, these are the types of videos that are going [00:00:10] viral. These are the kind of topics that are going viral. And then they. Basically clone it, [00:00:15] and that doesn’t make you a thought leader, that makes you a copycat.
I’m [00:00:20] not saying that you shouldn’t do that. I’m not necessarily saying it’s the wrong thing, but what I am saying [00:00:25] is that does not make you a thought leader. Yeah. That does not make you trusted. That [00:00:30] does not make you an authority.[00:00:35] [00:00:40] [00:00:45]
AJ: Welcome to the Wealthy and Well-Known podcast. I am joined here [00:00:50] by my partner in crime, Roy Vaden. Um, and today we’re gonna be [00:00:55] talking about why credibility beats virality. Mm-hmm. And this is [00:01:00] a special topic for me because I have a love hate relationship with all things social [00:01:05] media and all things that go viral.
There’s a love hate there. Uh, but here’s what I [00:01:10] think is really important is like attention. Is cheap, but [00:01:15] trust lasts forever. Right? And it’s like, are we doing everything that we’re doing to just [00:01:20] get attention? Are we actually doing it with real credibility that builds real [00:01:25] trust over time? So here’s the question.
What have you disappeared from social [00:01:30] media, from your digital footprint for 30 days? Would your [00:01:35] ideal customer still know, you know about, you know, what you do, still look for you, wait for [00:01:40] you? Or would they completely forget that you even existed? All right. So Rory, [00:01:45] here’s what we’re gonna do. We’re gonna start with this, uh, idea, this topic of the category of one.
Rory: Mm-hmm.
AJ: [00:01:50] So how do you become a category of one where you are the trusted [00:01:55] expert? That attracts your ideal customer, right? A trusted [00:02:00] customer who comes to you because of your credibility and your trust, not just because they saw [00:02:05] you on a viral cat video.
Rory: Mm-hmm. Yes. So I think [00:02:10] I would start the conversation to go, how do you do that versus how do you go [00:02:15] viral?
The way that you go viral. The most common way that people go viral [00:02:20] today is they take a viral video and they copy it. [00:02:25] They replicate it. They literally regurgitate it. They go, these are the types of [00:02:30] videos that are going viral. These are the kind of topics that are going viral. And then they. [00:02:35] Basically clone it.
And that doesn’t make you a thought leader. That [00:02:40] makes you a copycat. I’m not saying that you shouldn’t do that. I’m not necessarily saying it’s the [00:02:45] wrong thing, but what I am saying is that does not make you a thought leader. Yeah. That does [00:02:50] not make you trusted. That does not make you an authority. That does not make you [00:02:55] credible.
It, it makes, makes you, it makes you a commentator. It makes you a commentator. It makes you a copycat. You’re, you’re a [00:03:00] clone, like literally cloning now.
AJ: Or you go on. But is that [00:03:05] bad?
Rory: I don’t think it’s always bad. Um, I think [00:03:10] there’s a lot of wisdom to going, look, we’re there, there is a war for attention, and you’re going, [00:03:15] how do you get attention?
Well, you can pay for it, but if you’re not rich, then how do you get it? You have to earn it. You gotta [00:03:20] figure out a way. So I, I, I’m, I’m not necessarily against it. I am against. Plagiarism.
AJ: Mm-hmm. [00:03:25]
Rory: Uh, like verbatim plagiarism. And I would say I have a general [00:03:30] distaste for it personally. Like I would never trust somebody where I go, like, I [00:03:35] literally saw almost that exact same video from somebody else like.
Six weeks ago or [00:03:40] whatever. And that is what is, what is happening a lot right now. So,
AJ: so,
Rory: but [00:03:45] at the same time we do, we research viral videos to identify topics [00:03:50] because that tells you what the public is interested in. Right? So there’s a, there’s a balance there.
AJ: So, yeah. So I guess what I [00:03:55] was gonna ask is, you know, that old saying that’ll quote, if it ain’t broke, don’t [00:04:00] fix it.
Right? And not a little bit of this, of like, well, hey, everyone has figured out. Like this is what [00:04:05] goes viral. This is what works. Um. What, where, where’s the [00:04:10] line? Like that feels like a lot of gray area
Rory: of, of what you’re, you’re saying you should do that. [00:04:15]
AJ: I’m asking.
Rory: Well, I think, I think that there’s a difference.
There’s a [00:04:20] difference between attention and authority.
AJ: Mm-hmm.
Rory: Modeling [00:04:25] or mimicking viral patterns is a way to get attention [00:04:30] and to the extent that attention is deserved and appropriate. I don’t think there’s [00:04:35] anything wrong with it, but I don’t believe that’s the way to build authority. It’s it’s [00:04:40] smoke.
It’s. It’s smoke and mirrors, right? Because even if I have lots of followers and you think I know what I’m talking [00:04:45] about, the moment we actually engage and you find out, oh, I don’t actually [00:04:50] really know anything, I’m just parroting stuff from other people. You can’t build a [00:04:55] business that way. You can’t build a brand that way.
It’s the difference between a social [00:05:00] media following. And an actual brand that lasts the test of time, [00:05:05] right? Speakers try to hack, uh, this, where they’re like, well, I’m gonna hack the [00:05:10] algorithm. So when you put you search, best keynote speaker, my name pops up. Okay. I’m [00:05:15] not against that technique, but I’m telling you,
AJ: once you get on stage,
Rory: once you get on stage, [00:05:20] you can’t fake it.
And if you, if, if you come on stage and then somebody comes out there either [00:05:25] before you or after you who is a real professional, you’re gonna be embarrassed. You’re [00:05:30] going to, you’re going to look so you can trick people. For a while, [00:05:35] right? You can trick people to get attention, but you can’t trick people long-term into [00:05:40] building authority.
You have to be a person of substance. You have to be a true thought leader. And so what we [00:05:45] do at Brand Builders Group, honestly, I would say is a balance. It’s a blend of attention and [00:05:50] authority, but I would say we have a strong disposition towards authority [00:05:55] driving things towards trust, building things towards credibility and [00:06:00] virality as kind of like secondary in nature.
AJ: You know what I. Takeaway from what I just [00:06:05] heard you say, and I don’t think I’ve ever thought about it this exact way, is that virality may build [00:06:10] your audience, but credibility and authority actually builds your business.
Rory: [00:06:15] Hmm.
AJ: And I think those are really two distinct things that people get confused often.[00:06:20]
Like do more followers equal more business. Not [00:06:25] necessarily, uh, sometimes, but there’s no direct correlation per se, [00:06:30] unless you’re actually talking about things that relate to your business, to your authority, to your credibility, and are you [00:06:35] talking to your target audience versus whatever went viral?
Rory: And do you [00:06:40] have a real like system of business?
So I think a lot of people today put a lot of [00:06:45] emphasis on systems and processes and strategies to attract [00:06:50] attention,
AJ: right?
Rory: And they don’t put the same rigor into the systems and processes and [00:06:55] methodology to deliver client results.
AJ: Amen.
Rory: So they bring a lot of people. [00:07:00] Then nobody transforms. Nobody. You know, they, they charge whatever [00:07:05] they, they, they charge the most they can, they make short term money and then the thing falls [00:07:10] apart and they can’t figure out why.
And they’re like, oh, well, leads are more expensive. It’s like, no, because, because your business [00:07:15] isn’t built on solid principles. Okay. And real expertise.
AJ: So let’s go back to this question of this [00:07:20] becoming this category of one, which I love this idea of like virality versus true authority. [00:07:25] Mm-hmm. And okay.
Define for us then, what is true [00:07:30] authority and what’s the difference when it comes to this digital ecosystem that we’re all [00:07:35] living in?
Rory: Yeah, so I think true authority comes [00:07:40] from a track record of results. The number one place that authority comes from is [00:07:45] a track record of results. Of results, and I think that track record starts in your own [00:07:50] life and your ability to produce a result.
And then it is. [00:07:55] You know, further expanded by your ability to create that result in the [00:08:00] lives of others, right? It’s why on the inside cover of this book it says. You’re most powerfully [00:08:05] positioned to serve the person you once were. It’s why that’s become such a mantra for our community and [00:08:10] our members is because we’re going, that may not be the way to go viral the [00:08:15] fastest.
It is the way to build a business the fastest. Your [00:08:20] credibility doesn’t come from. It also doesn’t come from trite, things like that you’ve been in the media or [00:08:25] that you got a fancy degree from a big school or your social media following, or who your [00:08:30] friends are. It comes from the actual ability to deliver results, [00:08:35] and that isn’t necessarily the same thing that gets you massive [00:08:40] attention.
AJ: Okay. I have a question for you going off script a little bit. Why not? [00:08:45] Like why doesn’t real authority, real expertise, real thought [00:08:50] leadership, why doesn’t that attract attention? Why doesn’t that go viral?
Rory: [00:08:55] Because viral is all [00:09:00] about the unexpected, right? Viral is about the sensational [00:09:05] viral is about. The, the most emotional, it’s the, [00:09:10] it’s the most unusual vi viral is, um, I mean sensational would be [00:09:15] the word.
Viral.
AJ: Go ahead.
Rory: Viral tends to happen at the extremes, but [00:09:20] success. Tends to be about being brilliant at the basics, focusing on [00:09:25] the fundamentals, mastering the things. Most of success in life [00:09:30] comes from doing the unsexy things really well, and [00:09:35] unsexy doesn’t go viral. That’s, that’s why real authority, [00:09:40] real thought leadership often doesn’t go viral because real authority and real thought leadership is [00:09:45] focused on creating a transformation and a result.
And that’s usually being brilliant at the [00:09:50] basics, not attracting attention, which is a bunch of random stuff we’ve never heard. That’s so like, [00:09:55] you know, captivating. And so, you know, there can be a blend of both. But that’s, that’s [00:10:00] how I would answer that question.
AJ: Yeah, it’s interesting, like the way I interpret that is almost, it’s [00:10:05] like.
At the basics, uh, being successful is almost [00:10:10] boring. It’s like the true keys, uh, to success. The [00:10:15] fundamentals of like what makes you successful are pretty boring. They’re [00:10:20] consistent. They’re, uh, repetitive, they’re boring.
Rory: I mean, look at [00:10:25] our, our first book, take the Stairs. Like that is the truth. You want to be, you want to know how to be [00:10:30] successful in life.
Read that book. It’s never changed. It never will change. Yeah. Everything in there is [00:10:35] timeless. That book doesn’t go, doesn’t go viral because. It’s not what [00:10:40] people want to hear, it’s what they need to hear. And I think that’s just a big [00:10:45] difference. It’s a difference between media, by the way, right? Media is not in the business of [00:10:50] accuracy.
Yeah. Media is not in the business of truth. Media is not in the business of transformation. [00:10:55] Media is in the business of attention, and the more polarizing, the more [00:11:00] emotional, the more controversial, the more unusual, the more sensational, the more people pay [00:11:05] attention and they make money from attention because they make money on advertising.
When you’re building a [00:11:10] brand, though, you’re building a sustainable, I deliver a result. That comes [00:11:15] from the fact that hard work, hard
AJ: work, and time,
Rory: and time and and experience.
AJ: [00:11:20] People don’t love hearing that.
Rory: No, they don’t. They don’t, it’s not, at least, it’s just not what they pay [00:11:25] attention to,
AJ: but yet it is the truth.
Rory: Absolutely. Now, the [00:11:30] good news about that is that anybody, you know, if you’re struggling in your business right now and [00:11:35] you’re, you’re scared and you’re like, I don’t know where to turn. I don’t know what to do. You should have faith that you [00:11:40] go. If you find someone who knows and who’s been successful, they will tell you.[00:11:45]
These are the principles. These are the basics. And if you master these things, you [00:11:50] can’t not succeed. Like it’s impossible. Like the [00:11:55] principles. The success principles are true in every walk of life and in every [00:12:00] department or function of a business. And if you do them well. You will win [00:12:05] eventually, but people waste all their time chasing a bunch of like [00:12:10] sensational garbage.
Right.
AJ: So let’s talk about some of these basics that you’re talking about doing work. ’cause some people might be listening going, what [00:12:15] are these basics? What are, yeah. Tell me what are the basics? Gimme the boring stuff. Um, so let’s talk about the [00:12:20] boring stuff for a minute, because I think if that’s really where true authority.
Comes [00:12:25] from, and that’s where credibility comes from, thus trust, right? And those are the true [00:12:30] building blocks. Then let’s talk about those for a minute. I think it’s worthwhile to, you know, explore [00:12:35] well, how can we have this combination of the truth and the basics and the [00:12:40] fundamentals, and how do we actually make that go viral today?
What I would love to see something going viral [00:12:45] is telling the truth of like, it takes time. And hard work [00:12:50] and discipline, like I’d love for that to be a message that’s preached a little bit more. It might not be the [00:12:55] sexy one, but it is a true one. Um, but let’s talk about the basics. What are they? So when you say, Hey, [00:13:00] doesn’t matter.
Who tells you this? Like these are the timeless principles of success. These [00:13:05] are the basic building blocks of true business. What they,
Rory: yeah, so I mean, it depends [00:13:10] on what the context is. If we’re going, are we talking about there’s, there’s principles of sales, [00:13:15] there’s principles of marketing, right? So we teach.
Eight figure entrepreneur. We teach that [00:13:20] every business is, has eight functions. Eight doesn’t matter if you have one person or you [00:13:25] have a hundred thousand employees, there’s eight functions. I would argue that [00:13:30] marketing sales. Fulfillment, customer service, hr, [00:13:35] finance, administration, operations, and it all have fundamentals for those things.[00:13:40]
If you’re talking about personal development, right? That would be more like the Take the Stairs book. These are the, the [00:13:45] truths of success of personal development. If you talked about the principles of time management, I would [00:13:50] say that’s what my second book was all about. Uh, you know, five permissions to multiply your Time.[00:13:55]
If you wanna know the principles of being successful at personal branding, that’s what this is. And [00:14:00] by the way. I actually think if you look at our life story, if you look at the [00:14:05] arc of our career in many ways we’re like the tortoise in the [00:14:10] tortoise versus the hare. We teach truths. We talk about [00:14:15] principles.
We don’t focus first on gaining attention. We’ve [00:14:20] played the long game and that shows up in our life in how we live and [00:14:25] the family we have and, and the various things that God has blessed us with. But [00:14:30] one thing we have not done is accumulated massive large audiences. Mm-hmm. [00:14:35] And I think hopefully that’s in invigorating for some people to [00:14:40] go, oh, the sooner I stop chasing the glamor and the glitz of just [00:14:45] attention.
And the sooner I dig my heels in and go, I’m gonna, I’m gonna, [00:14:50] I’m gonna focus on principles and living principles in my life and teaching [00:14:55] principles in my business. I can build a life changing [00:15:00] business. Um, but it, it also, you know, it doesn’t happen overnight. ’cause it never happens overnight. Never happens [00:15:05] overnight.
But it’s just no one wants to hear the truth.
AJ: But I wanna pick one of those topics. Okay. So since we’re kind of talking about [00:15:10] authority, thought leadership, credibility mm-hmm. Like, if you were gonna go, here are the basics of building true [00:15:15] thought leadership.
Rory: Mm-hmm.
AJ: Let’s, let’s dig in on that one.
Rory: Okay. So I, [00:15:20] I think research and results are the two.
Ultimate sources I [00:15:25] think of, of authority, and I think results is more important, right? I personally would [00:15:30] take advice from an entrepreneur who sold their business for millions of dollars over a [00:15:35] professor at an institution who has never actually owned and operated a business
AJ: all day long.
Rory: [00:15:40] Right now.
That’s not to dis just say, oh, there’s no value in academia or [00:15:45] whatever.
AJ: Definitely value
Rory: extreme, and I’m very data-driven as you know, we are very data-driven [00:15:50] and I’m very much into research and analysis as well. But if you, if you look at the [00:15:55] research side, right? The results side is pretty self-explanatory.
Did you do the deal and can you help other people do the [00:16:00] deal?
AJ: Mm-hmm.
Rory: When you talk about thought leadership, my mind goes more towards the like academia side. [00:16:05] I think, uh, reading, writing and research would be like the [00:16:10] three Rs of academic authority. So reading means [00:16:15] I’m familiar with what’s been said in my area.[00:16:20]
I used to love the term thought leader, then I didn’t like it ’cause everyone [00:16:25] used it. And now I’m like, I really like this term because it is the real term to be a [00:16:30] thought leader is to be. A leader of the thinking that’s been done in that area. [00:16:35] So there is an element of innovation, and it’s like to be a true thought leader, I’m [00:16:40] innovating my space, but I can’t innovate my space until I understand my space, until I’ve [00:16:45] actually, you know, I’m actually up to date on the, the thinking that’s [00:16:50] been done in that space.
AJ: And I think this is important because that’s also where credibility comes from. [00:16:55] It’s like you actually know what you’re talking about. Which does require research, [00:17:00] writing and reading.
Rory: Yeah.
AJ: And I think, and that doesn’t matter what your business is, even if you’re listening going, well, I [00:17:05] wouldn’t call myself a thought leader, but it’s like, but do you know your space?
Are [00:17:10] you up to date on what’s happening in the market, in the economy, uh, with your local community? [00:17:15] Like whatever your business is, like, are you up to date on what’s happening with the thing that you do?
Rory: Yeah, and [00:17:20] I think that it’s important because, so we have a lot of clients at Brand Builders Group who were very [00:17:25] successful entrepreneurs and some of ’em times they’re like, well, you know, I know, I know a hundred times more [00:17:30] than Gary Vaynerchuk knows I should have all the followers.
And it’s like, well, results matters [00:17:35] for a lot. And I would say it should be number one, but. Your results also are very isolated to your [00:17:40] specific situation. So if you don’t understand the landscape of your space, it’s like what you [00:17:45] did may not be the thing that works for everybody all the time. [00:17:50] I do think it’s like the foundation, but the reading is going okay, I need to [00:17:55] understand what other people are experiencing.
And the research is really key to go, how do we [00:18:00] put data? How do we really separate a myth from truth? [00:18:05] How do we isolate? Tangible, practical things [00:18:10] and to like analyze and understand [00:18:15] empirically our space. And then writing, I think is one of the lost elements of [00:18:20] true thought leadership and a really critical one.
I
AJ: don’t wanna interrupt, but I, I think this is a really thing for those of you are, [00:18:25] listen. As I was listening, I, I thought about how many people that I [00:18:30] really love their writing, but when I go to hear them speak, like, and this [00:18:35] is like true thought leaders, it’s like they’re so academic, they’re [00:18:40] so well researched that I’m like, huh?
It’s like it just went over my head and [00:18:45] I’m like, wait, what? I thought I knew something and I don’t feel like, I don’t [00:18:50] know what you’re talking about. Like, so how do we not get lost in that? [00:18:55] Because it’s like, that happens a lot where it’s like, I’ll read something, I start following [00:19:00] someone and it’s like, oh, I wanna learn more about them.
And then it’s like the more that I follow them, I’m like, wait, [00:19:05] I’m clearly not their avatar. ’cause they’re talking so far above me that I feel like I’m in [00:19:10] first grade again because it’s so academic.
Rory: Yeah,
AJ: it’s so research. It’s like [00:19:15] how do I actually make this apply? It’s almost too theoretical or ambiguous or.[00:19:20]
Rory: I think you can err on either side of the spectrum. If you go, I have [00:19:25] a results-driven practitioner on one side, and I have [00:19:30] a data-driven researcher on the other side. If all you [00:19:35] know is what you’ve experienced, then I think you run the risk of being [00:19:40] detached from the reality of what other people are experiencing, and you might struggle to [00:19:45] articulate or translate what you’ve learned in a way that’s applicable to other people.
On the contrary, if you’re on [00:19:50] the other end of the spectrum here and you’re just nothing but a data-driven researcher, [00:19:55] you become detached from the reality of what people experience in the everyday world. [00:20:00] And one of the things that I love that I think is a trend of personal branding in [00:20:05] 2026 is that the people who are winning are a blend of both.
Mm-hmm. It was [00:20:10] like, you know, a lot of times there’s like this, this, the thought [00:20:15] leaders for years. Uh, you know, the people who got all the high speaking fees were like, [00:20:20] oh, I’m a bestselling author and I’ve sold all of these books, which I always find ironic [00:20:25] when I find it ironic when a Fortune 10 company pays money [00:20:30] to a speaker who runs a company of one employee to come and teach them [00:20:35] how to run their organization.
That’s a multinational corporation. I’m like, that’s a [00:20:40] big risk, right? Like you’re asking someone who has lived. Only in the world [00:20:45] of research and academia to come and teach you how to manage the complexities of a [00:20:50] multinational corporation. I’m like, it’s not that they can’t add value, I think we can learn something from everybody.
I’m just saying [00:20:55] that feels a bit disconnected. Um, and then, you know, there’s, on the other [00:21:00] side, I think there’s been a really a, a swing where it’s like we really want to hear from people who’ve done real life stuff. [00:21:05] Um. Then there’s all these marketers that have built these social media followings, which maybe [00:21:10] don’t have either, but they have a big following.
AJ: Mm-hmm.
Rory: And I think there’s this intersection that’s happening where it’s [00:21:15] like people go, no, I wanna learn from someone who’s done it, but I want them to also be data [00:21:20] driven in how they approach it. And I want them to be great at. You know, [00:21:25] producing content. Cody Sanchez,
AJ: I was gonna say, who’s, who are some examples?
Rory: Cody Sanchez is [00:21:30] one of the best examples right now. She has the track, personal track record of working in private [00:21:35] equity, you know, working on Wall Street, running her own businesses. She, they [00:21:40] operate funds, they invest in businesses. Mm-hmm. But they’re a researcher. They’re. [00:21:45] They are studying, they’re very big into data.
She’s writing, they’re [00:21:50] producing, they’re producing, and then they’re producing world class content and building an office,
AJ: but also she’s got a growing [00:21:55] platform. So what I hear you saying, it’s like, it’s really a three-part formula, right? [00:22:00] There’s the research, there’s the academia part, there’s the real world experience, and now [00:22:05] there’s this third component, which is platform matters.
Rory: Yeah. I mean, I’ve never said that, but as [00:22:10] I, I think. I think that’s the trend that is happening, and I think Gary Vaynerchuk fits that as [00:22:15] well. They, their team is very sophisticated, they’re very into research, obviously has a [00:22:20] monster platform and Gary knows what he’s talking about. Yeah, I mean, Alex Hormoz would be another one [00:22:25] where, where I’m like, man, like the guy, you know.
AJ: He researches it, he does it.
Rory: [00:22:30] He’s done it more than anything. I think Alex, he’s done it, is more of a practitioner, maybe [00:22:35] a little bit lighter on the research and writing. I mean, he’s written stuff, um, a little less [00:22:40] academia, but very practical. Mm-hmm. Um, and so I think that’s what people, they, [00:22:45] they want, um, you know, Dave Ramsey comes to mind as a longstanding person who’s like, [00:22:50]
AJ: yeah, those
Rory: are great examples.
Done all, all of those, but we wanna learn from somebody who’s done it. We [00:22:55] also want to learn from somebody who is well researched. It’s not just their opinions, [00:23:00] and we’re only going to get the chance to learn from ’em if they’re good at marketing and, and [00:23:05] media.
AJ: Otherwise, we don’t know they exist.
Rory: Bingo,
AJ: right?
Which is where components of the [00:23:10] virality come in. So does it mean it has to go global? Millions of views viral. [00:23:15] Um, but there’s. There is some importance of, you don’t wanna be the world’s best kept secret.
Rory: Can you [00:23:20] explain the, the, uh, the reputation formula to we, I haven’t really talked about that a lot on the [00:23:25] show.
We talk about it in the book, but like, it’d be good to do a review of. What the results, [00:23:30] or excuse me, the reputation formula is and how it works. I think that applies here.
AJ: Yeah, I think it’s, it’s [00:23:35] really simple and a brand builders group, uh, we talk about a very simple formula, which [00:23:40] is results times reach equals your reputation.
And [00:23:45] you can have amazing results. You can have sold your business for, uh, [00:23:50] lots of money with a huge impact and lots of employees and it’s a well established [00:23:55] business. And if. No one knows about it. And that reach is zero [00:24:00] results times zero. Zero. Mm-hmm. Which means your rep, your [00:24:05] reputation is nonexistent.
It lives in this tiny little bubble. Right. And the, [00:24:10] the opposite end of the spectrum is true as well. Right. You could have [00:24:15] tons of reach, right. Lots of followers, but if you have no real [00:24:20] results. Right. And you kind of talked about this earlier. At some point, you can only [00:24:25] pretend or fake it or ride that wave for so long, because even if you have tons of [00:24:30] followers and tons of audience and a huge platform, at some point we’re gonna realize, well, there’s no [00:24:35] real results there and this doesn’t work.
And again, reach time, zero, still zero, which means your [00:24:40] reputation, even if it’s riding away, that wave’s gonna come down, right? And it’s gonna [00:24:45] crash and go boom. And so what we’re looking for is that happy medium of how do you have real [00:24:50] results. That is again, the combination of real life experience and real [00:24:55] expertise, and that’s through both academic research and the real life [00:25:00] experiences times reach.
And for us, reach is just your [00:25:05] ideal audience. That’s your ideal avatar. The whole world doesn’t need to know about you for this to [00:25:10] equal a significant reputation for you. It’s what your person does. Right. And I think one of [00:25:15] the mistakes that I have seen people make. Again, it’s one end of the [00:25:20] spectrum or the other.
Right. And the people who I encounter who are often the best at [00:25:25] what they do, have spent nearly no time building their reach. Mm. [00:25:30] You know why? Because they’ve been building ho, they’ve been busy honing their craft, craft, building [00:25:35] their business, doing the research, doing the deal, and they have spent no time helping [00:25:40] people know about it.
Thus, their reputation is very minimal when it comes to [00:25:45] impact. That’s
Rory: right.
AJ: And to me that’s a travesty because they are the real experts. [00:25:50] No one knows about them and no one is listening to them. And who people are listening to [00:25:55] are the people on the other end of the spectrum who’ve spent all of their time mastering [00:26:00] marketing.
They have spent all their time learning how to make things go viral and becoming really well known for [00:26:05] something. And they lack real expertise. They haven’t done the real thing, they haven’t done the [00:26:10] real research. They haven’t lived the years, they haven’t seen everything, but they’re, they’re telling [00:26:15] something.
They’re preaching something to a huge audience. Is founded [00:26:20] on very few results, and that’s scary.
Rory: Yeah. And I, I [00:26:25] would say a lot of times when people think of Brand Builders Group, sometimes they see like our really well-known [00:26:30] clients and they assume that we only work with people with a lot of reach.
AJ: Yeah.
Rory: And actually [00:26:35] the vast majority of the clients we work with are the opposite.
AJ: Mm-hmm.
Rory: They have all [00:26:40] the results. Very little reach. Uh, that’s, that is most of the, most [00:26:45] of the people that are our members and that we work with are people who spent their life honing their [00:26:50] craft, and now they’re going, they’re waking up to, to, to the reality of what you just said.[00:26:55]
Um, and by the way, if you ever wanna talk to us, if you go to free brand [00:27:00] call.com/podcast, you can request a call with our team and we’ll talk you through this. So, on the results, [00:27:05] or excuse me, the reputation formula. I wanted to, uh, break it down. You [00:27:10] know, we talk about results times reach equals reputation.
Your results, I think are [00:27:15] two, two parts. Your personal results, like your personal track record and then your client’s results. [00:27:20] What results have you been able to help other clients get? And then your reach also [00:27:25] is two parts. And this is a part I really wanna highlight for those of you, um, who [00:27:30] maybe don’t have a huge following.
So
AJ: like me. That’s me.
Rory: Yeah. Yeah. This would be [00:27:35] us. This would would be us. Yeah, for sure. Um, uh, and, and I guess we could say you [00:27:40] directly Yeah. Yeah. So
AJ: this, I’m this category person,
Rory: so if you look at reach, there’s [00:27:45] two groups of reach. There’s direct reach and indirect reach. So your [00:27:50] direct reach is. How many people do you immediately have access to, right?
[00:27:55] It’s you. How many people can you get a message to through your email list, your text message list, [00:28:00] your, your social media, following your podcast, your YouTube channel. That is your direct reach. [00:28:05] You can push a message whenever you want to those people. But what a lot of [00:28:10] the people who have big results.
Have is not [00:28:15] direct reach, but indirect reach. So indirect reach is your ability to get a [00:28:20] message to people through someone you know, through someone who trusts you. [00:28:25] Right? We don’t have a huge direct reach, but we have a [00:28:30] monster indirect reach. We have some of the biggest affiliates in the world. Why?
Because we [00:28:35] helped them get results. Our biggest form of reach [00:28:40] happens not from us growing our audience. Our biggest form of reach happens from creating [00:28:45] results for our clients. And when those clients have reach, they [00:28:50] share that reach with us. And that’s part of why we always say, like in the book, the best form of [00:28:55] marketing in the world is a changed life.
So if you spent all your life getting [00:29:00] results. Don’t, you know, be so heartbroken and be like, oh, I can’t, I can’t do a [00:29:05] huge launch or, or build something quickly. You probably have big indirect reach if [00:29:10] you’ve been investing in relationships.
AJ: Yeah. And I would add maybe perhaps an alternate view to [00:29:15] this, uh, which I think is maybe helpful for some of you who are listening who fit in my category, [00:29:20] which I have a pretty small online reach.
And for some of you who are going, well, I don’t really know if I do. [00:29:25] I wanna go viral. I don’t really know if I wanna invest the time and the energy and the effort to doing [00:29:30] all this online thing. Like, I don’t know that, I don’t know if that fits me. And I would say [00:29:35] then perhaps it doesn’t. Like, perhaps it doesn’t.
And I wanna just touch on the [00:29:40] importance of when we talk about reach, you know, there’s the direct and the indirect.
Rory: Mm-hmm.
AJ: But there’s also [00:29:45] the online and the offline.
Rory: Mm-hmm.
AJ: And we always tell people, [00:29:50] go where your audience is. If your audience doesn’t live [00:29:55] online, whatcha doing on there? Like, whatcha doing online?
Right? There’s some [00:30:00] power. And yes, clearly having an online presence, but if your avatar is [00:30:05] not online and that’s not where you’re looking for them, that’s not where you’re gonna find them. Then [00:30:10] go where they are. And I think we spend a lot of time in marketing in general, [00:30:15] right? Just in the idea of finding leads and building audiences, and we spend [00:30:20] so much of our time talking about the online components that we forget about offline.
Rory: [00:30:25] Mm-hmm.
AJ: And you can build just as much credibility and authority offline than you can [00:30:30] online.
Rory: Yeah, some of the people with the biggest Rolodexes, the highest amount of [00:30:35] influence, the biggest amount of wealth have zero online. Ah. And it’s because they have a [00:30:40] massive offline.
AJ: Yes, and I was gonna say
Rory: reputation
AJ: in the monetization chapter in our [00:30:45] book, wealthy and Well-Known.
Um, I actually did research on this because I was so curious. So I [00:30:50] did a research project on who are the 10. Wealthiest [00:30:55] individuals alive in the world today, and how does that correlate with their online [00:31:00] presence? And of those only seven, or sorry, not, [00:31:05] oh, only seven, didn’t even have an online presence.
Only three had an online presence. [00:31:10] Of which, you know, mark Zuckerberg having a large online presence doesn’t count. He doesn’t count.
Rory: [00:31:15] Yeah.
AJ: He’s everybody’s
Rory: friend. He is gotten to be everybody’s,
AJ: but like seven of them did not [00:31:20] have an online presence.
Rory: Mm-hmm.
AJ: No social media account like they were. Not present [00:31:25] online.
Now, some of that, you know, take with a grain of salt because when they establish their businesses or when the businesses [00:31:30] were established through their families, this wasn’t a thing.
Rory: Yeah.
AJ: Um, so some of that take with a grain of salt, [00:31:35] but nonetheless, I thought it was really interesting of, wow, they have [00:31:40] built.
Offline networks, offline relationships, and they have [00:31:45] quote unquote, gone offline viral because of the networking and [00:31:50] the relationship building and the years and years of the showing up at the [00:31:55] nonprofit events, the networking meetings, the board meetings, uh, being present in the [00:32:00] community, being available to their clients.
They have built incredible brands for [00:32:05] their businesses and incredible impact and incredible income with zero online [00:32:10] presence. That too is possible for us today.
Rory: Yep. Yeah, so [00:32:15] you got, there’s different types of reach. There is, um, [00:32:20] different types of results and those are probably people who’ve delivered results for lots of other people.
And even though they [00:32:25] don’t have an online presence, they probably still have some type of a direct platform. They have thousands of employees, [00:32:30] customer lists, referral partners, uh, et cetera. Yeah. So, [00:32:35] so I’m curious for you. Okay. So. [00:32:40] You are, have never been impressed by celebrities, you’ve never been [00:32:45] drawn to how many followers this somebody has.
Like [00:32:50] you. It’s, it’s, it’s almost ironic that we’re in this business. I mean, when people really understand what we do, it’s not [00:32:55] because we really serve the real experts.
AJ: I was gonna say, it’s not ironic at all because the person we serve. [00:33:00] Is the person we once were, which is the person who’s just trying to make a larger [00:33:05] impact with what they’re doing.
Rory: Mm-hmm.
AJ: Not to become famous, not to go viral. That’s who [00:33:10] we serve.
Rory: Mm-hmm.
AJ: But what was your question? Sorry.
Rory: Well, my question was just like, why are you [00:33:15] not impressed at all with [00:33:20] celebrity fame followers? Or, or why do you think, what do you think [00:33:25] is different about you from like. Is that like a conscious [00:33:30] thing that you do, or is that just like innate or do you think like other, other people are, [00:33:35] you know, they, they think of it in a way or like you just, you just don’t have that like, oh, [00:33:40] I can’t that per, like you don’t fan girl at all over anyone ever.
AJ: [00:33:45] But I never have. So I think there was a part of me that was just born that way. I think [00:33:50] there was a part of me that I was raised in a entrepreneurial family where my grandfather [00:33:55] started, uh, a construction business. Then my dad took it over and my brothers are taking it over. And it was [00:34:00] just very hardcore ingrained in our being of like, success [00:34:05] comes from hard work.
And I think that was from my grandfather to my dad to [00:34:10] us. And there was, there was a, uh. A [00:34:15] consistent message in our house of like, success comes from hard work. And so I think some [00:34:20] of it stems from that, and I think some of it was God’s divine blessing over my life. [00:34:25] Um, knowing
Rory: what does impress you? Like, what is what, what are [00:34:30] then the things that you, as a consumer or a business partner or a [00:34:35] referral partner, what are the things that do, are appealing to [00:34:40] you or that you go.
Wow, this is, this is what impresses me, overcomers. [00:34:45]
AJ: Like, uh, I think this is a great example. So Rory and I share an executive life [00:34:50] coach, um, and he was our former pastor. And when he left the church, [00:34:55] when he left his pastoral work, um, we kind of lost touch for years. [00:35:00] And this was back in 2021, which was probably.
We call it the dark years. These [00:35:05] are the dark years. Um, but these were like some of the hardest years of my adult life. Like it was a [00:35:10] really dark place for me, the dark years. Um, and I finally like come to the conclusion. I’m [00:35:15] like, I need like a real life coach. Like I tried the counseling thing and [00:35:20] I was like, like, this is not what I’m looking for.
Like I need, I need. Some guidance. [00:35:25] And when I started researching and interviewing different firms and different coaches, [00:35:30] I got referred to all these places and I won’t recommend them, or I won’t mention them. It’s not that I don’t [00:35:35] recommend them, I just didn’t go with them because here’s what I found through every single one of those interviews [00:35:40] and every single one of those vetting processes as everyone was shouting their accolades.[00:35:45]
Rory: Hmm.
AJ: And I immediately thought to myself like [00:35:50] that, I can’t even be honest with them. I can even share with them what I’m trying to [00:35:55] do in our business and where I’m struggling because they have it all together [00:36:00] and it was like very well known, prominent firms and different coaching [00:36:05] programs. And I’m like, I don’t relate.
They’re in these high seasons of life with these [00:36:10] huge exits or these amazing processes and they have it all together and it’s like, I feel like a [00:36:15] big hot mess. And I, I don’t even wanna tell them how I [00:36:20] feel or what our struggles are. And then I came across our former pastor’s [00:36:25] profile, uh, and I knew his story of the, you know, falling from the [00:36:30] mountaintops and the, you know, road back to redemption.[00:36:35]
And for the first time I’m like, oh no, that’s, that’s what I need. Like, I need [00:36:40] someone who’s like, oh no, I’ve been there. Like I, I was on top of the wave. [00:36:45] I rode it and I fell crashing to the ground, and there’s light at the end of that [00:36:50] tunnel. So it’s the overcomer story that really impresses me of the person [00:36:55] who persevered, who didn’t give up, who figured it out when there didn’t seem to be a way, when odds [00:37:00] were against them.
And I think that’s what really impresses me the most and why I love who we [00:37:05] get to work with at Brand Builders Group is it’s the, uh, unassuming, [00:37:10] it’s the humble, it’s the person who’s doing this because there’s a calling on their life. They can’t not do it, [00:37:15] and it’s because they don’t want fame. It’s like, no, I wanna make a difference.
[00:37:20] Uh, I don’t wanna be famous. And I think, I think that is what impresses me most, is [00:37:25] like they’re changing lives because they can just help people. Not that famous [00:37:30] people don’t change lives. They most certainly do. But I think that’s what impresses me. And when we decided on our [00:37:35] executive life coach, it was a very decided decision of like, no, I need someone who [00:37:40] has been humbled, who fell and worked their way back up, who had to start over and [00:37:45] who had to refine their, you know, their graces and re get in touch [00:37:50] with.
And I was like, that’s what I needed. Right? And that’s what I needed. And there was a level of [00:37:55] comfort in knowing that this person. Wasn’t afraid to share that story. And all these [00:38:00] other executive bios, it was just accolade after accolade after accolade. And I felt [00:38:05] intimidated. And I was like, not them, not them.
Uh, I’m, I, I don’t even measure up. [00:38:10] Like I would be embarrassed to tell them what’s going on. And so I [00:38:15] think that’s, I think that’s a really important part of this idea of building real [00:38:20] credibility is that you’re really honest with the wins and the losses. Because I think [00:38:25] the losses attract a, a different grouping of people who go, yeah, me too.
Can you help me through [00:38:30] this?
Rory: Yeah. I’ve been inspired by your, your [00:38:35] encouragement for people to share the hard parts of their story and that that’s really like, [00:38:40] um, nobody ever shows up after your speech and says, I was so impressed by all your accolades, [00:38:45] but when you, when you say, this is what I struggled with.
AJ: Yeah.
Rory: People come out of the woodwork [00:38:50] and I think. In a world of technological [00:38:55] perfection in an artificial world, like the more [00:39:00] artificial the world becomes, the more our humanness is our [00:39:05] uniqueness. And I think that’s what you’re talking about. Yeah. And I think it’s just, you know, that [00:39:10] authenticity is, is a big, a big part.
AJ: Well, and I think credibility comes from knowing [00:39:15] like, yeah, I fail too. Like that doesn’t mean you give up. And I think that’s [00:39:20] where a lot of the authority comes from. Um, so one of the things that we wanna do right now, this is one of our [00:39:25] favorite segments of the show, is this is where we get to take a question from our community at [00:39:30] Brand Builders Group.
So those are members, uh, who are part of the community at Brand Builders Group, and they get to submit [00:39:35] questions. And our team picks a question that we’re gonna answer live for you [00:39:40] today. So, Rory. What’s the question?
Rory: Question comes from Olivia m Hi Olivia. M [00:39:45] Olivia says, I’m getting decent engagement online, but it’s not [00:39:50] translating into premium clients.
How do you become the obvious [00:39:55] choice instead of just another choice or creator that people [00:40:00] watch?
AJ: Hmm. How do you become the obvious
Rory: choice? Choice? [00:40:05] And she’s, she’s, she’s mentioning premium clients, which I think is an interesting part of [00:40:10] this question.
AJ: Yeah. So I guess defining what premium is, and to me that would just be your ideal [00:40:15] client, right?
The premium client is the person that you most want to work with, right? It’s [00:40:20] the center of the bullseye. Like, this is the person I’m going after. That’s how I interpret that.
Rory: Okay. Then [00:40:25] you answer that. ’cause I interpret it differently and I’ll answer it the other way.
AJ: Yeah. So I think when I, when you’re attracting [00:40:30] leads and they’re not converting well, I think there’s a lot of.
Speculation into [00:40:35] what that really means. Yeah. It’s like are you growing your followers, but they’re not converting into calls? [00:40:40] And one of my questions to that would be, well, do you ask them to, like, do you have any calls to action? [00:40:45] Like if this is an online conversion conversation. I think where a lot of people miss the boat [00:40:50] is they forget to actually have a call to action.
Rory: Yeah.
AJ: Like we forget to tell people what we want [00:40:55] them to do. Right. And so if you have leads that are. Showing up in the ecosystem, [00:41:00] it’s are you actually directing them to do something?
Rory: Yeah.
AJ: Right. And so, because she’s
Rory: saying she gets [00:41:05] engagement, but she’s not necessarily saying she’s getting leads.
AJ: So I think that would be my first thing [00:41:10] is like, are you actually giving them a clear, decisive call to action?
Are you telling them what to [00:41:15] do next? Mm-hmm. We assume people know they don’t. We have to tell [00:41:20] people this is what you do next. Right? You request a free call with our team. You [00:41:25] follow us here, you subscribe here, you download this thing. Like you have to tell [00:41:30] them what to do. And it’s not one time. It’s all the time.
Rory: Yeah. And I would, [00:41:35] I would say that a big mistake that people make with their social strategy is they kind of go [00:41:40] from someone saw me to, I’m gonna sell them something. And there’s [00:41:45] all of these steps, a few steps in between, right? So first. First, there’s [00:41:50] engagement. Then they become a lead. You capture them, then there has to be [00:41:55] trust, then there is a transaction.
Right? So just because I saw your video [00:42:00] that went viral and it was 60 seconds doesn’t mean I’m gonna buy from you. It’s you gotta give them that [00:42:05] next step, that clear call to action. Now they’re a lead. Then I have to have some trust [00:42:10] accelerating experience, and then I have to have a process for them to actually become a [00:42:15] customer.
Mm-hmm. And if you’re just trying to go from engagement to premium client. That, that breakdown, and a [00:42:20] lot of people make that mistake right now.
AJ: So I would say it’s probably one of those two things. You’re getting [00:42:25] engagement, I’m assuming you’re talking about online, and there’s rather not a clear. Call to action, [00:42:30] or you’re missing one of those trust building conversion steps in between engagement and [00:42:35] customer.
Rory: And our call to action would be to you that if at any point you want to [00:42:40] talk to our team about how we might be able to coach you and encourage you to get to the next level with building [00:42:45] your personal brand. Driving more warm, more warm leads for your business, uh, accelerating your [00:42:50] impact. Go to free brand call.com/podcast, free brand [00:42:55] call.com/podcast and we’re just gonna wanna hear your story and see if we could be a [00:43:00] match to help you take the next step.
Uh, outside of that, keep coming back to the [00:43:05] podcast, wealthy and well known. We’re so honored to have you as part of the community. If you haven’t yet, [00:43:10] please go leave us. A rating or a review wherever you listen to the show and [00:43:15] share this episode with somebody who you think would be encouraged by it, and we’ll [00:43:20] catch you next time on Wealthy and Well [00:43:25] [00:43:30] [00:43:35] Known.
WWK Ep 110: Faith, Focus, and the Power of Being Known: Lessons from a $1.5B Real Estate Leader – Dana Gentry
Dana: [00:00:00] I remember going to the doctor and they. Prescribed me Xanax at [00:00:05] 16 years old. Whoa. And I struggled for a couple [00:00:10] of years. Really? Everywhere I went I had to, you know, take something, which is so not like [00:00:15] me ’cause I barely even take Tylenol today. But then it just, I mean I became hooked on it [00:00:20] and I uh, I really, really struggled because I was in such a deep place.
’cause I was having [00:00:25] such horrible panic attacks. I remember one time being in Panera and I just. Had a, if [00:00:30] anybody listening has ever had a panic attack, you know, but like, it just, like everything closes in on you and you just [00:00:35] have to get out, you know? And it was just horrible. I couldn’t fly, I couldn’t do all these things, and God [00:00:40] really, no pun intended, totally restored me like he healed me.
I went cold Turkey one day. I stopped [00:00:45] taking the pills and just my life was. I had always been in church, but God totally just restored [00:00:50] and healed my life.[00:00:55] [00:01:00] [00:01:05]
Rory: Hey friends. Welcome back to the Wealthy and Well-Known podcast. I’m so excited to [00:01:10] introduce you to someone who’s become a dear friend of mine, someone that I respect as a colleague [00:01:15] and a professional. I have the opportunity to serve her as a client. Our team does. I think [00:01:20] she is one of the, the, the fastest rising stars in the world of personal [00:01:25] development and building a personal brand.
But she is no stranger to success. She is [00:01:30] one of the top people at Keller Williams and has been for years. Her team closes [00:01:35] get this 1.5 billion with the B dollars in [00:01:40] annual transactions. Uh, she’s worked directly with Gary Keller. Um, she’s been a [00:01:45] part of their team. She runs one of the, uh. Co-host one of the top real estate [00:01:50] podcasts in the world.
It’s called Everything Life in Real Estate. It’s a top 1% [00:01:55] podcast that she co-host with Linda McKissick. Um, she is the author of this new book, [00:02:00] restore 90 Days of Intentional Living, which we’re gonna talk about. She’s [00:02:05] also in John Maxwell’s high capacity leadership mentorship program. So she mentors [00:02:10] directly with John, uh, who also is a friend of mine.
I actually just got to speak to their group. [00:02:15] And this woman is just on the move and we’re gonna talk about today all things about how to [00:02:20] use your personal brand to drive leads for your business, grow any type [00:02:25] of business specifically, uh, professional services and advisory of any type. And then talk a [00:02:30] little bit about her faith journey and her setbacks and how she’s gotten to be [00:02:35] everything that she has become.
So Dana. Welcome to the show friend.
Dana: Thank you so much [00:02:40] for having me. That was quite the intro. Thank you.
Rory: Yes. So one of the things [00:02:45] that I love about Brand Builders Group, which I don’t think enough people understand [00:02:50] yet, is when people hear Brand Builders Group or they hear personal branding, they go, oh, [00:02:55] I have to be a coach to work with you guys, or I have to be a speaker, or I have to be a consultant.[00:03:00]
And I always am frustrated. I’m like, no more than 50% of our [00:03:05] clients are professional services.
Dana: Yeah.
Rory: They’re people in real estate. They’re financial advisors, they’re [00:03:10] lawyers, they’re doctors like their accountants. How much has [00:03:15] building a personal brand mattered, do you think, in your. [00:03:20] Your actual business.
Your real business. You make your money in, in real estate.
Dana: Yeah.
Rory: How much has [00:03:25] been h had a, having a personal brand mattered in that journey?
Dana: It has been huge. And all I can see. When you [00:03:30] say that, Rory, are the personal brands trends that you guys put out, like every slide I [00:03:35] can, I have, I think I have the whole entire thing memorized because I really felt blessed that I [00:03:40] started this kind of early on, I was an early adopter of building a brand and [00:03:45] now it’s, you know.
It’s it, I mean, if you don’t have it, no matter what industry and your [00:03:50] trends show that, whether you’re a doctor, a lawyer, a real estate professional, whatever it is that you look like, everyone wants to [00:03:55] know that you have a personal brain because they wanna see if they align with you or not. And I feel like [00:04:00] specifically in real estate.
I’ve seen a lot of realtors or or real estate [00:04:05] brokerage owners even, they just get stuck in that transaction, like the day-to-day transaction and now [00:04:10] they’re slower and they haven’t adapted and they haven’t built a brand or they haven’t adopted to social media [00:04:15] like they should have. And they’re wondering why their business is changing.
And I’m unlike you guys, it, I [00:04:20] mean, it is what it, this is the new world like it. People wanna know who they’re working with [00:04:25] on a deeper level. And your trends really were what completely changed the game for me when I saw [00:04:30] that.
Rory: Yeah, the data’s very clear and compelling.
Dana: Very clear. [00:04:35]
Rory: So let’s talk about real estate specifically.
Although, you know, most people watching this are probably not in [00:04:40] real estate. I’m sure several are. Yeah. But a lot of people are entrepreneurs.
Dana: Totally.
Rory: But I just want to [00:04:45] hear, in real estate specifically, what do you think [00:04:50] the, the people who are building a personal brand in real estate are doing? Right.[00:04:55]
Yeah. And what are the, what are the the things they’re doing wrong when they’re trying to build their personal brand?
Dana: [00:05:00] Okay. And I think this could be really, like you said, with anybody that’s an entrepreneur, but specifically in real estate. I [00:05:05] think the ones that are doing it right, and I have so many that pop into my head.
They’re being real. [00:05:10] They’re being consistent. They’re being authentic. They are, um, not [00:05:15] making it all about business. They’re showing things that they like to do, the values that they [00:05:20] have, things that matter to them. They’re going really hyper-local and they’re branding themselves, almost [00:05:25] like niching themselves in really hyper-local to where they sell,
Rory: um, like [00:05:30] geographically.
Dana: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I have, um, one of my top agents, his name’s [00:05:35] Roger Wilcott in Columbus, Ohio. He is in my Columbus office. He has niched himself. His [00:05:40] brand is incredible. He’s niched himself so deep into this one condo building that he actually lives [00:05:45] in. But I mean, he’ll, you know, he’s 1,000,002 million GCI agent a year.
He’ll [00:05:50] do
Rory: most commissionable
Dana: income. Income. GCI. Yep. You got it. Yeah. And he, it is because he [00:05:55] has built his brand. He has three golden retrievers. He, they are part of his [00:06:00] brand. I mean, it’s all the things that. You know, people think about when they think about you, like you’ve [00:06:05] taught us. I think the ones that are doing it wrong are posting, sold [00:06:10] another, just closed, had another, you know, worked with this client.
Like they, they aren’t [00:06:15] getting it, that people wanna know about them and what they’re into. They just, it, [00:06:20] they’re, they’re transactional still. Um, if that makes sense.
Rory: So when you, when you were [00:06:25] describing this story, what’s his name? Roger. Roger. Roger? Yeah. We talk about Sheehan’s wall. [00:06:30]
Dana: Yes.
Rory: And how the way to break through is not to try have multiple streams of income or be known by [00:06:35] everybody to, but, but to be known and master like one very small group.
Yeah. So you’re talking about [00:06:40] a real life story of this guy has made over a million dollars a year.
Dana: Yes. [00:06:45]
Rory: Niching down, not a state. A county, a town or a neighborhood, [00:06:50] like a
Dana: block.
Rory: But you’re talking about one block.
Dana: Yes.
Rory: But it’s like if you’re interested in that block.
Dana: [00:06:55] Yep. The
Rory: this is that guy.
Dana: He’s the guy.
Yeah, totally. And I will say, one thing I wanna touch on on that, I [00:07:00] remember when I very first started with brand builders and I was going through this, she hands wall and [00:07:05] kind of working through that and it’s. It’s like a mind trip for a lot of [00:07:10] entrepreneurs, at least in our world, because we are taught you need to have seven streams of income.[00:07:15]
So, you know, at first I was like, wait,
Rory: I know when I, when I stand in front of real estate audiences and I’m like, [00:07:20] multiple streams of income is not how you get rich. Yes. Everybody goes,
Dana: oh yes.
Rory: Like they don’t, that’s like, why can’t believe you [00:07:25] said that?
Dana: But it’s so true though, because, and that’s not to say that later, you can’t have them
later,
Dana: but if you [00:07:30] don’t go deep and master the one thing first.
Like I’ve been guilty of that. I know [00:07:35] one of the things we’re gonna talk about are struggles I’ve had, like buying more offices and trying to do this and [00:07:40] trying to do that to have all these different streams of income when really I’m chasing all these things and none of them were [00:07:45] success. Like none of them were great instead of just like going all in on one.
So that [00:07:50] was an interesting part that I kind of had to rewire my brain around, but it’s so true.
Rory: Well, [00:07:55] I’m glad you didn’t get mad at me when you first heard it and you’re so potable. No, I thought
Dana: Gary might though.
Rory: Yeah, I [00:08:00] know. Well, you know Gary Keller. I remember when, when I had a pre-event call. [00:08:05] ’cause that’s, I think that’s how we met first, right?
Was when I spoke at Keller Williams National Convention.
Dana: Yes. I followed you and [00:08:10] studied your stuff for a long time. So when they brought you in, I was like, yes, this is it.
Rory: When [00:08:15] Gary got on the pre-event call, I was like, I can’t believe that Keller [00:08:20] Williams wants me to talk about building a personal brand.
Dana: Yeah.
Rory: And I was so scared because [00:08:25] I’m like, I’m like Gary. Don’t you want people to like build the Keller [00:08:30] Williams brand? Mm-hmm. And he was like, no,
Dana: no, he never has.
Rory: Like, I almost thought it was like, do you realize that [00:08:35] who, that your team has brought in to speak? Yeah. And what I’m talking about. And he was like, no, that’s why I brought you here.
Yeah. [00:08:40] I don’t want my people to build a Keller Williams brand. I want them to build their own brand.
Dana: Yeah. That [00:08:45] is the sole reason why I joined Keller Williams. Really because, and not to say anything negative, but [00:08:50] I was with a company before re max and REM Max is great. I have tons of friend friends at REM Max, but it [00:08:55] was about.
Re max in the balloon. And I remember when I came to Keller Williams, when I went to [00:09:00] the first training, like I heard, it’s about you. You should build your brand. Because on the real estate side, [00:09:05] clients, over 80% of them don’t know the brokerage that their realtor is with. They only know their [00:09:10] realtor. So if you aren’t branding yourself, which again goes back to our initial conversation of why this is [00:09:15] so impactful and so important for real estate professionals.
They don’t really care who you’re [00:09:20] with. And I say that as a brokerage owner with 600 agents. As brokerage owners, we just have to give the [00:09:25] most value to our agents because the brand really isn’t it. It’s the brand is [00:09:30] about the realtor, them themselves specifically.
Rory: Amen. I mean, the same would be true if you’re [00:09:35] financial advisor.
It’s like, totally. I don’t care if you’re with Morgan Stanley or like, I don’t even understand what any of that stuff [00:09:40] is. I’m just like. Okay. Like Chris is, Chris is my guy, and I’m like, I trust Chris.
Dana: Totally. [00:09:45]
Rory: Same with a dentist. Yeah. It’s like, I don’t know where you went to school. I don’t know like what [00:09:50] your, who, who does your certifications?
I’m just like, do I like you? Yeah. Right. Do I trust you? It, it, [00:09:55] it’s, it is so, it’s so personal. Yeah.
Dana: It’s
Rory: um. So that’s really encouraging [00:10:00] to me. You’re such a great example. 600 agents you have.
Dana: Mm-hmm. [00:10:05] Yeah. All. Although Keller Williams people joke and say, I am the brand builders poster child [00:10:10] because I teach your, I talk about it and teach it in everything because I really believe [00:10:15] Rory so many, again, real estate specific, but then I’m sure this applies to [00:10:20] everyone.
I really think so many are gonna wake up in three years and be like. Oh crap. I, [00:10:25] I really missed the boat on this. Um, and Gary has taught us a saying [00:10:30] anytime there’s a shift in the market, which right now. There is a shift in the market. I mean, you know, the market is, [00:10:35] has shifted already. We are already in a shift.
Buyers finally have said, whoa, wait a minute. I’m not gonna [00:10:40] pay that for that house. Like that’s crazy. So it’s kind of shifted the market around. But Gary always says [00:10:45] anytime there’s a shift, there will be agents that gain market share that they keep forever and there will be [00:10:50] other agents that lose market share that they never get back.
Rory: Mm.
Dana: And I’ve been teaching all of my agents [00:10:55] right now, I think brand personal branding and marketing truly is. Is that [00:11:00] differentiator between that shift? Like if they aren’t leaning in on that, they’re gonna look up after this shift and [00:11:05] say, oh crap, I wish I would have, because I’ve lost market share to the people who are [00:11:10] showing up and are building a brand.
Because another fun fact, the average consumer right [00:11:15] now can name eight realtors off the top of their head. Totally. So if you aren’t number one, I [00:11:20] mean, and maybe more than that in bigger cities like, you know, Nashville or Charleston or Columbus or [00:11:25] wherever. I mean, everybody has a, everybody is a realtor almost.
So if you aren’t building [00:11:30] the brand and you aren’t the first one that they name, then what does it matter? I mean
Rory: Yeah, [00:11:35] that’s totally true. I mean, ’cause everybody, you know, people come and go out of it, real estate with [00:11:40] lots of professions, you know, and, and you go, a lot of it is. I think of [00:11:45] whoever I’ve seen most recently.
Dana: That’s right.
Rory: Right. And so it used to just be like, oh, I forgot and I saw [00:11:50] someone at a Christmas party or birthday party. I’m like, oh yeah, they, I, they could sell my house. But it’s like with. [00:11:55] Social and content marketing. Yeah. It’s like you, people can see you every day.
Dana: Yep, [00:12:00] totally. Well, we used to say it would be like, oh, I still have your magnet on my fridge from seven years ago.
[00:12:05] You know, and so I’ll call you now. But that’s not the case. I mean, they’re looking at who’s telling their [00:12:10] story the loudest on social media.
Rory: So, okay. Honest question here. Honest [00:12:15] question. So, so you were very, very successful way before you found us, [00:12:20] but you’ve been. A very steadfast client of brand builders group.
[00:12:25] Mm-hmm. Why would you invest to learn from [00:12:30] us And has it, or how has it been helpful to you? Yeah. [00:12:35] Since you were already successful, but like you’re going, you’re still [00:12:40] investing and learning this stuff. Why, why are you doing that at your level [00:12:45] and. How has it been useful to, to someone even at, I [00:12:50] guess like at your, your advanced level in your business?
Well,
Dana: I mean, easy answer for me. Number one, [00:12:55] you said the word, I see it as an investment, not as an expense, and I think. Even a lot of [00:13:00] semis, successsful to successful entrepreneurs are afraid to spend money on stuff, [00:13:05] or they won’t. They don’t. They see it as an expense instead of an investment into yourself.
And [00:13:10] sometimes it’s hard to measure that, right? Like you can’t say, oh, I have this specific ROI because I’ve been [00:13:15] doing this. But you just have to think like. I’m not in this for the next three or five years, like I’m doing this [00:13:20] for a lifetime. And that to me,
Rory: Chris, can we get the lifetime agreement? Can we get out the [00:13:25] lifetime contract?
She’s ready. She’s
Dana: perfect. Okay, perfect. [00:13:30] But it’s true because I just don’t see it going away. I mean, for. Well, to [00:13:35] be honest, Roy and transparent, you know, to own real estate brokerages and to also want to build my brand and [00:13:40] do other things like the books and speaking and things, I still have to be attractive.
My job right [00:13:45] now is to recruit realtors to my brokerage. I mean, that’s at the end of the day, you know, I’m, I wanna [00:13:50] impact all of their lives and I want us to grow. And so. I, I wanna continue to build my [00:13:55] brand and be known so that these other agents in central Kentucky, Lexington, and surrounding areas [00:14:00] in Columbus, Ohio look up and say, wow, if I wanna grow my real estate career and if I wanna be in it for the [00:14:05] long haul, and I wanna be getting the best of the best of the best, like I gotta be in Dana Gentry’s [00:14:10] offices.
Mm. And unless I’m building my brand and continuing to invest in myself, then you know, [00:14:15] they’re not gonna do that. It’s the way that I look at it. But brand builders specifically, [00:14:20] you all your content is so. Rich. I mean, you can [00:14:25] like there, I mean, I’ve been almost two years now and, and I’m, I mean, I’m pretty [00:14:30] in it.
Like I, I mean, you know, I’m got my causal through, like I’m pretty in it, but I feel like I’ve [00:14:35] barely scratched the surface sometimes. Like it’s just the content is so rich [00:14:40] and if you at all are lost, even if you’re successful, but you’re lost [00:14:45] in like, okay, how do I even build my, you just, it’s baby steps like the whole way through [00:14:50] and.
I mean, it’s just the best I tell everybody. And I love getting my [00:14:55] little monthly income coming in because I’m like, you need to be with Brain Builders and you need to be with Brain Builders because [00:15:00] I really do believe it. I mean, I’m not gonna say something, you know, that I don’t believe, but it just has impacted me so [00:15:05] much.
And I, Rory had success, but I didn’t know how to chunk it down [00:15:10] into what I now know my four pillars are that have led to two decades of success. Mm. [00:15:15] And I’d never heard of an expert bio in my life. I mean, there’s just so many things.
Rory: [00:15:20] Terms.
Dana: Yeah. It’s just, there’s so many things and I’m like, but what’s happened is with each [00:15:25] step that I’ve learned, it’s worked.
I mean, my following, not that the number matters. I know in the [00:15:30] data the, you say the numbers, the follower number doesn’t matter, but I have seen my [00:15:35] followers grow. I have seen my offices grow. I have seen the level of people that I’ve been able to attract. [00:15:40] In fact, you’ll crack up over this. I don’t know if we wanna say this on here or not, but [00:15:45] I just had a huge team join one of my offices in Kentucky.
Um, I’ve known him for [00:15:50] years. He’s been a friend of mine and he just joined in part from a
Rory: different brokerage.
Dana: From a different brokerage. [00:15:55] Yes. He just joined. Wow. Yeah. They do about 25 million a year in volume in central Kentucky. He’s a great, great guy. [00:16:00] Such a great team. Our negotiation, part of what I am providing for [00:16:05] him is 12 months of a brand builders contract.
Wow. He, he asked for that and I was like, [00:16:10] what’s making you ask for that? And he’s like, honestly, I’ve just seen what it’s done for you. You talk about it all the time [00:16:15] and I want it to be part of my deal. And I was like. Okay. And what can you say? Because [00:16:20] he’s following exactly what I’ve been, what
Rory: you’re doing.
Dana: Yeah. So I’m like, perfect. [00:16:25] So they actually joined on Monday, just this week. They transferred their licenses. So he’s like, when do I get [00:16:30] to start my brand builder stuff? I’m like, I’ll get it, I’ll get it.
Rory: That’s awesome, Dan.
Dana: But I believe it. I mean, it’s, it works. [00:16:35]
Rory: Well, one, you know, and it’s not just us, right?
You’re, you’re in [00:16:40] mentorship with John Maxwell. Oh yeah. I know you’ve done several of my
Dana: friends. Well, you have to have, have an investment mindset, period. I mean, personal [00:16:45] growth. If John has taught me, if you, the, the, um, oh, what does he always say? He [00:16:50] says, you will never regret investing in your personal growth.
Like never ever, ever. Like, [00:16:55] there’s no amount of money. There’s no amount of time. Because when you get better, everybody gets better.
Rory: I’ve always [00:17:00] been fascinated be that. Like, when I first heard about personal development, you know, I’d have people who were like, oh, [00:17:05] those people are just like trying to take money from you, or they’re scamming you, or whatever.
And so I thought when I would [00:17:10] go to an event, it would be like all the like really needy, desperate, broke [00:17:15] people. No, it’s all the like, it’s the opposite. Yeah. It’s people like you and you’re like, oh my gosh.
Dana: Yeah.
Rory: It’s [00:17:20] like, and the more you pay,
Dana: the better
Rory: it gets, the better the quality of the person is [00:17:25] that’s there and you’re like, oh.
It’s the opposite of that. Yeah. And you go, oh, that’s, [00:17:30] that’s why they are there. Yeah. Because these are the people who have invested the most in themselves.
Dana: [00:17:35] Yeah.
Rory: And um,
Dana: people used to, I used to say in one of my. Um, talks that I would [00:17:40] do, I would say, I would talk a little bit about being intentional with investing in yourself, and I would say from stage, you know, Adam and [00:17:45] I spend six figures a year on personal development, and we do, and people would be like, I could just see [00:17:50] their faces and I would think, am I losing them?
Because I was never saying it from like a, oh, [00:17:55] we can afford it. We’re, you know, nothing like that. I was trying to say we believe in it so much and [00:18:00] we’ve seen the return so much that we put it in our budget to make sure that we’re investing in [00:18:05] ourselves.
Rory: Sure. I, I mean, and that’s, um, I mean it shows, [00:18:10]
Dana: yeah,
Rory: it shows and, and as a leader, separate from like building a [00:18:15] personal brand and separate from your own performance.
One of the things [00:18:20] that I always think of as a leader is my job is to learn.
Dana: Mm-hmm.
Rory: [00:18:25] Because the more I learn, the more valuable I am to my team.
Dana: Totally.
Rory: Right. The more I can [00:18:30] develop the people around me, the more I can bring them opportunities. Yeah. The more that we invent and [00:18:35] create things that provide infrastructure.
Mm-hmm. And so it’s not just an investment in [00:18:40] yourself. People talk about that, which it certainly is. Yeah. But it’s also. An investment in yourself is an [00:18:45] investment in your team.
Dana: Yeah.
Rory: Because of who you become as a leader.
Dana: Yeah. Well, you’ll, [00:18:50] um. Understand this, but so I obviously am a person of faith and a [00:18:55] believer and so I look at leadership as stewardship.
Rory: Mm-hmm.
Dana: And so I really [00:19:00] believe that, you know, God has given me these people and these agents and these brokerages and whoever on [00:19:05] Instagram, whatever, to like to steward. And so, amen. I don’t feel like I [00:19:10] can steward them well if I’m not constantly learning and growing and making myself better. [00:19:15] I feel like I would be, you know, I don’t know.
I just feel like that’s not the right thing to do as a [00:19:20] leader, especially when you look at it from a stewardship perspective.
Rory: So, yeah, let’s talk, let’s [00:19:25] go there for a little bit. Yeah. Because your faith, you know, is a, has been a big part of your life. Yeah, and I think, [00:19:30] you know, you and Adam are very successful, great reputation, [00:19:35] obviously, incredible team results, all of that.
Was there a time like, [00:19:40] take me back to when it wasn’t that. Yeah, like take me back to the time when you, [00:19:45] was there ever a time where you were experiencing self-doubt or like when you were going through [00:19:50] struggles? And what did that look like? Yeah. And, you know, walk us [00:19:55] through some of that.
Dana: Totally. 100%. So I was not a good student.
I did not [00:20:00] like school. Um, in high school I had a weird kind of series of events [00:20:05] where I was, um, two people that were close to me. I had two separate times, both got killed in car [00:20:10] accidents.
Rory: Wow.
Dana: Friends of mine. And it kind of gave me, it really sent me into Rory. Like, [00:20:15] what? Just panic. Like I had horrible panic attacks.
Horrible anxiety [00:20:20] attacks. And at the time I was only 17, 16, 17 years old. And so I remember going to the [00:20:25] doctor and they, you know, they prescribed me Xanax at 16 years old.
Rory: Whoa. [00:20:30]
Dana: And I struggled for a couple of years. [00:20:35] Really? I mean, a lot. Like, I, I could not get off of it. I mean, I just, everywhere I went, [00:20:40] I had to, you know.
Take something, which is so not like me ’cause I barely even take Tylenol today. [00:20:45] But then it just, I mean I became hooked on it and I uh, I really, really [00:20:50] struggled because I was in such a deep place. ’cause I was having such horrible panic attacks. I remember one [00:20:55] time being in Panera and I just had a pain, if anybody listening has ever had a panic attack, you know, [00:21:00] but like, it just, like everything closes in on you and you just have to get out, you know?
And it was [00:21:05] just horrible. I couldn’t fly, I couldn’t do all these things. And God really, no pun [00:21:10] intended, totally restored me like he healed me. I went cold Turkey one day. I stopped taking, [00:21:15] um, the pills and just my life was, I had always been in church, but God [00:21:20] totally just restored and healed my life. Then.
And when I look back, it’s interesting [00:21:25] to see kind of how my life was. Then I, I didn’t graduate college, I went to college. I [00:21:30] dropped outta college. I got my real estate license. And, um, I used to be so embarrassed to [00:21:35] tell people that I didn’t have a college degree. I mean, I would go in these rooms with all these, you know.
People [00:21:40] and they would be like, I grad, where’d you graduate from? I graduated from here. I graduated from there. And I’m like, uh, I didn’t, I never [00:21:45] graduated. I dropped out.
Rory: Hmm.
Dana: Um, you know, and so it’s just funny, those things that you carry [00:21:50] along with you, but I’ve been able to just look at every turn. [00:21:55] Like, God put the exact person in my life at the exact time from the person that said, [00:22:00] you’d be great in real estate.
You should get your real estate license. Um, you know, just to then, oh, you should talk to [00:22:05] somebody at Keller Williams. Like, every single thing has just been lined up and it definitely was [00:22:10] not always, were you
Rory: always close to God or like going back to that like whole sort of Xanax season, did you. [00:22:15] Did you pray for that intervention like that?
Because that’s like, like a cold
Dana: Turkey stuff. [00:22:20] I was like a, I mean, I went to church my whole life growing up, but I don’t know, you [00:22:25] know, I don’t, I wasn’t like deep in the Bible or anything as it then, I mean, I would, like, I [00:22:30] went to youth group and stuff like that. Um, but I was, I, I knew enough to pray, to [00:22:35] pray about it, you know, to be like, okay, God, the only way I’m gonna get better and get off of this, or do, you know, [00:22:40] get to live a normal life is if you heal me.
So I just remember I would like. I would try to read my [00:22:45] Bible and then I would really pray about it and then, but I was such a, I mean, I was a kid at the time, but [00:22:50] yeah, and I just think, I don’t know, I’m so grateful because it’s like God has [00:22:55] just kind of swooped me along every single thing that has ever [00:23:00] happened.
It’s just, I don’t know. It’s just, yeah, it’s such a blessing.
Rory: Mm-hmm. [00:23:05] Is there anything when you look back that you go, Hmm, I should have done that [00:23:10] differently? And specifically in the, in the realm of like, [00:23:15] reputation and sort of like personal brand building. Mm-hmm. Or, or, or that [00:23:20] because, um, you know, again, it’s interesting to hear where you started.
Look at where [00:23:25] you are now.
Dana: Yeah.
Rory: But I, I, I’m thinking about the people who are [00:23:30] in the more of the struggle.
Dana: Yep.
Rory: Right? Like somebody is listening right now who is [00:23:35] struggling.
Dana: Yeah.
Rory: And they’re just like. Trying different things. Yeah. And spinning their wheels and [00:23:40] burning out. Yeah. And like, uh, you know, was, was there a time where you kind of [00:23:45] had that?
Mm-hmm. And then you’re like, I was doing this for a long time. I should have been doing this. [00:23:50] And it took me a while to make that switch and once I did, I finally got momentum.
Dana: [00:23:55] Yes, definitely. And I mean, my pillars that you all helped me kind of [00:24:00] develop. So when I look back over the last two decades. What I think has led to this [00:24:05] significance, I’d say success and significance today has been really four things.
It was learning to be [00:24:10] really intentional. I had no clue. I never even heard the word intentionality until I met John Maxwell.
Rory: Mm.
Dana: [00:24:15] So, I mean, I, I didn’t know what intentional looked like. And today, you know, one of the things I teach is [00:24:20] being if you are stuck or you’re drifting or you’re in that struggle zone, [00:24:25] how truly intentional are you being with your time, your talent, and your treasures?
Because. If you [00:24:30] aren’t being intentional with your time or with the talent that God has given you, or even the little bit of money, [00:24:35] or the lot of bit of money that you have, then you, he’s not gonna give you favor and bless you to get out [00:24:40] of that, to keep going. So, I wish I would’ve learned, intentionality way before I did.
I’m grateful that [00:24:45] John taught it to me.
Rory: So it, I wanna, so I wanna pause on that for a second. Okay. So what you just said, because [00:24:50] you’re talking about intentionality. You’re saying you, you believe that if you’re not being [00:24:55] intentional with what, basically, with what God has given you so far. You think [00:25:00] that there’s no evidence to suggest you’re gonna get more until [00:25:05] you’ve basically stewarded what you have?
Is that what you’re saying?
Dana: Definitely. Yeah. It’s biblical and [00:25:10] all and truthfully. I mean, we’re, we are called to be intentional. And so I [00:25:15] think, and for so many years I look back and I was, what I call semi-successful. [00:25:20] So I mean, I just was drifting, like I was winging it at every turn. And it was about me.
[00:25:25] It wasn’t about the other people that I was, you know, serving or, um, it was [00:25:30] truly, it was about success, not about significance. And John, what John Maxwell has always. [00:25:35] Taught and teaches everybody, not just me, but is when you, when you’re, when you think about being successful, [00:25:40] it’s about you. And when you think about living a life of significance, it’s about serving others.
And you, you say the same thing. [00:25:45] And I think that mindset shift, you know, for me, I’ve always had a servant’s [00:25:50] heart, but from a business perspective, especially in real estate, I mean, you know, it’s a [00:25:55] grind and it’s very uber competitive.
Rory: Super competitive,
Dana: so competitive. And so [00:26:00] you can get caught in this trap, and I’m sure this is the same with, you know.
I have friends in [00:26:05] pharmaceutical sales and medical. I mean, all of that, it’s, it’s the same. Any sales is like that, but I, [00:26:10] I think for me it was almost like just. Winging it and going day by [00:26:15] day and like whatever is thrown at me next is the fire that I’m putting out. Or instead of saying, okay, you know, [00:26:20] like today for instance, I don’t really do any calls.
I mean, maybe there’s an occasion [00:26:25] or a meeting or something be, I try not to before 10:00 AM because, but I get up at the [00:26:30] cracks. Same as you, I’m sure. But the reason is because I’ve learned if I’m not intentional with the time in the [00:26:35] morning and I start my day. You know,
Rory: reactive
Dana: or
Rory: whatever. Yeah, yeah.
Dana: Then it’s, [00:26:40] my whole week is screwed up. And so it’s just like being so intentional with your time. Adam and I take the [00:26:45] week, um, the day after Christmas until the end of the first week of January every year, and we go to Florida to [00:26:50] visit his mom, take the kids, and we map out, we do our vision boards. We have our, our month at a [00:26:55] glance paper calendars that we’ll plan for the whole entire year.
We put our vacation. I mean, it’s just [00:27:00] living with intentionality, which to some people may sound like, you know, woo woo or whatever, [00:27:05] but it. It’s worked and it, it works for, it works for me.
Rory: Yeah. [00:27:10] I’ve become very convicted as I’ve gotten older that like
Dana: mm-hmm.
Rory: Excellence is never an accident. [00:27:15]
Dana: Never.
Rory: Like, it never just like, oh, I tried this.
It’s just like, oh, it just worked. It’s like, that’s [00:27:20] never the story you hear.
Dana: Yeah.
Rory: So if, if you go, well, that makes sense. Then you [00:27:25] go, okay, we’ll take that to the next level then. What does it look like? It means that excellence is methodical. Yeah. Which means you, you [00:27:30] plan for it, you prepare for it, you expect it.
Yeah. You know, you adjust For sure. ’cause I [00:27:35] think excellence is messy. Always.
Dana: Always.
Rory: But it’s, but it’s like, it’s not an accident. [00:27:40] You start in a direction. Yeah. And, and, and you have to sort of map out that path. And again, it’s like. [00:27:45] Here you are doing the things we talk about. Mm-hmm. Getting up early and reading [00:27:50] and doing coaching and praying and reading the Bible and doing vision boards.
And you go like, [00:27:55] isn’t all that stuff kind of like cheesy? And you go, maybe, but [00:28:00] look at what it’s brought you. Look what it’s brought me. Look what is like, everybody who like mm-hmm. Came [00:28:05] from such little and done so much. They’re like, these are the things I do.
Dana: Yeah.
Rory: Um, I
Dana: always [00:28:10] think it’s interesting too because.
I think, and I think there’s, I don’t know your background, but I mean, [00:28:15] I didn’t really come from money, so I mean, whatever I’ve had, I’ve, you know, worked for, been blessed. [00:28:20] God has, you know, given, given it to me. But I’ve always heard people say, when you know what it’s like to [00:28:25] not have money, then you really aren’t ever afraid of that.
Because if something happened, you would just do it again. I was
Rory: talking, [00:28:30] I was talking about this with aj, like literally last night.
Dana: I think it’s so true. Do you? [00:28:35]
Rory: I, but because I was just like, I’m like, I’m so grateful constantly [00:28:40] because yeah. Everything I have is always going to be better [00:28:45] than any wherever I started.
Dana: Yeah.
Rory: And it’s like, and I’m not afraid to go back there. And there’s a [00:28:50] few times in my life where I’ve had to like, take some steps, like me too, pretty far backwards. And it’s like, [00:28:55] and it’s okay. Like it, so I, I am grateful for that. Now. Now, [00:29:00] you know, I, where I get worried about that, here’s what worries me is my [00:29:05] kids, you know, we
Dana: talk about this all the time.
Rory: We grew up. Poor. Like we [00:29:10] couldn’t afford box cereal. We didn’t get to go on vacations. Yeah. We didn’t get to do like, didn’t get to go out [00:29:15] to eat.
Dana: Yeah. You didn’t wear Lululemon.
Rory: Right. And it’s like,
Dana: well, you have boys,
Rory: our kids [00:29:20] even So we’re about to move into our new house like on Friday. Yes. And we’ve been building this house for two [00:29:25] years and I, I, I literally, the other day, you know, we’re like doing our final walkthrough and I’m going, [00:29:30] oh my gosh.
Like my kids. Are growing up in a world [00:29:35] that is so radically different.
Dana: Yeah.
Rory: And that’s where I worry about it because I’m like, they’re [00:29:40] not gonna know. They’re never gonna have known anything different.
Dana: Yeah. Yeah. Ours are the same. I mean, we live in [00:29:45] Mount Plastic, Mount Pleasant, Charleston. I mean, it’s, they have like, they, some of their friends get boats for their [00:29:50] 16th birthdays.
Yeah. It’s crazy. But I will tell you what, um, Adam and I talked to John Maxwell one time [00:29:55] about that, and John did say something that. Kind of made me feel a little bit better about it. And I do [00:30:00] believe this, he did say that when your kids grow up with that, of course they’re grateful and I’m [00:30:05] sure yours are the same.
And you know, they like, we go on mission trips and we try to be, again, very [00:30:10] intentional with having them understand this isn’t this. Normal.
Rory: Yeah.
Dana: You know, the way you grow up. [00:30:15] But John said that sometimes when your kids have grown up that way, that when they become adults, they [00:30:20] do wanna, they do kind of level up because they wanna continue the lifestyle, right.
And they wanna continue the [00:30:25] vacations and those things. And so he said, you know, I can’t say that for everybody. And he said, but for the most part, what I [00:30:30] see is like they become very successful young adults into adults because they say, okay, I’ve seen [00:30:35] my parents live this life. And I wanna, you know, kind of
Rory: it keep doing the
Dana: same thing.
Rory: It’s their [00:30:40] expectation level is just higher. Yes. And so I think for a lot of people who [00:30:45] are in a situation where they don’t have much, they struggle to [00:30:50] believe that it’s possible. You know? Yeah. Like I, like, I remember I tell a story all the time, like the first [00:30:55] time that I said I want to be a New York Times bestselling author.
[00:31:00] Might as well have said, I’m gonna be the president of the United States. Like the distance between where [00:31:05] I was and that
Dana: Yeah.
Rory: Those were the same distance. Mm-hmm. Like they were equally impossible. [00:31:10] Right. And I think a lot of people, they, they can’t. They [00:31:15] can’t get the logic or rationale of their mind wrapped around something so big.
Yeah. [00:31:20] Because they’ve never tasted it. They’ve never experienced it. They don’t know anybody who has done it. They don’t know [00:31:25] how to do it. Yeah. They don’t know how to get started, and so it just seems impossible, and so they don’t. I think, [00:31:30] you know, when you grow up around successful people, it’s like you are programmed of, like, [00:31:35] we talk about money, we know about taxes, we start businesses.
Yeah. We hire people, we delegate stuff. Yeah. [00:31:40] We invest in tools and people. Mm-hmm. And technology and whatever. So, so I do think that is [00:31:45] just, I just wanna make sure they’re not entitled little jerks.
Dana: Yeah. We do. We, we do also, we, we, [00:31:50] Adam and I, Adam and I get in the hot tub every night, almost every night, like before bed.
And people have been messaging on Instagram saying, [00:31:55] I can’t believe with hell. Much of a health net. You are, you all get in a hot tub. But I’m like, we, it’s salt [00:32:00] water, like we’re good. It’s not all the chemicals. Um, but every night in the hot tub, I [00:32:05] mean, I would say 50% of the time, that’s what we talk about.
Like how do we make sure that the kids. Are [00:32:10] just not entitled or that they’re appreciative and grateful. And, and I [00:32:15] honestly, I think it’s just keeping ’em in church. I mean, for us that’s what it is. Like keep just keeping them, [00:32:20] you know, and it’s, I was so proud. This has nothing to do with anything we’re talking about, but I will tell you, um, [00:32:25] so my, it’s my bonus son, Adam’s son Addison.
He’s getting ready to be 18. He’s 17 years old and he has. [00:32:30] Had his first girlfriend. And so he was sitting in the hot tub with us two nights [00:32:35] ago and we were just, and sometimes that’s our time to like talk and ask questions. And you know, everybody’s so busy they play [00:32:40] tennis seven hours a day, so we don’t get to ask that many questions during the day.
Rory: Wow.
Dana: But we were sitting in the hot tub [00:32:45] and he was talk, we were talking about his girlfriend. She just went to the mountains with us for Thanksgiving and he said, [00:32:50] yeah, we just had this conversation that it’s really important to us a hundred percent that we’re saving ourselves for marriage. [00:32:55] And Adam and I were in the hot tub like.
Great. That’s That’s
Rory: a great news.
Dana: That’s great news.
Rory: [00:33:00] That’s great news. But
Dana: when we got out all that to say, when we got out, I mean, Adam was like, I honestly, I’m so [00:33:05] proud. He was like, I don’t think he could have said anything that would’ve made me more proud, because he said, we just don’t [00:33:10] know what goes through their head.
Or, you know, especially when you have two, you and AJ are the [00:33:15] same when you have two working parents that work full time, that are all the, I mean, it’s just, yeah, [00:33:20] it’s different. It’s totally different time, but I think we just have to keep ’em and keep good people around them, like their [00:33:25] friends and stuff.
Rory: Yeah. Well, the, to come back to your word intentional.
Dana: Yeah.
Rory: Which by the way, [00:33:30] is what this is. That’s, you’ve got four pillars.
Dana: Yes.
Rory: This is book one.
Dana: Yes.
Rory: Which is [00:33:35] based on that pillar Tell. Tell us a little bit about, tell us a little bit about Restore.
Dana: Yes. Okay. So Restore [00:33:40] started out as a 365 daily reader, and then through [00:33:45] working with Larissa and Brand Builders, I was like, okay.
That, along with running the other businesses that I do, [00:33:50] 365 days is a little overwhelming to me, so I’ll never forget Larissa said. People like Fast, [00:33:55] they like Packa Punch, they wanna read. So like why don’t you just do 90 days? And I’m like, why have I never thought of that? Why [00:34:00] am I trying to do? Yeah, that’s great.
Do 365 days. That’s,
Rory: I think that’s great.
Dana: Yeah. So I change it to 90 days. So it [00:34:05] is 90 days a daily reader of intentional living in your life, faith, and business. So [00:34:10] even if you are not a believer, you should still read the book. You will get a ton from it. Business-wise, I basically, [00:34:15] Rory thought, okay, I’ve had, well in my third pillar that I talk about, we’ll have to [00:34:20] talk about another time, but it’s just the power of proximity.
Hmm. Being, having proximity to [00:34:25] great people like Linda McKissick, like Gary Keller, like John Maxwell, and so many others. Now, I would [00:34:30] say you y your brain is opened up to so much more. So in the [00:34:35] book I shared 90 lessons of Intentional Living. And it’s all just [00:34:40] a lot of people. I’ve met a lot of stories.
Speaking of excellence, one of the stories in the book I talk [00:34:45] about is I heard Tim Grover, the coach of all the greats, you know, speak one time.
Rory: It was like Michael [00:34:50] Jordan’s
Dana: personal coach. Yeah. Michael Jordan. Kobe. Kobe Bryant. I mean, um, Steph. What’s [00:34:55] Steph? Curry. Curry, yeah. There’s so many of them. He tells the story and I tell, I share the story.
[00:35:00] Um, on one of the days in the book of how he got to coach mj, people were like, how in the world did you get to coach Michael [00:35:05] Jordan? And he said, well, I, I sent letters to every, he said, funny story. I sent [00:35:10] letters to everybody. I’m hearing him tell this, um, like on stage at an event that I was at. And I was just blown [00:35:15] away with it.
He said, I sent a letter to every single player on the team, but I did not send Michael [00:35:20] Jordan one because he was the untouchable. And he said, I sent letters to everybody on the team saying. [00:35:25] I’m a coach. Here’s the way I can help you. Here’s what I can do for your game. Here’s how I can, you know, do for your life, blah, blah, blah.
[00:35:30] And he said, several weeks later, I get a call from a representative from Michael Jordan and he said, um, Michael [00:35:35] Jordan wants to talk to you. And Tim said that. He’s like, this is weird. I didn’t send him a letter [00:35:40] like I’ve, I, you know, I never had a connection. Long story short, he gets to meet with Michael.
And at the [00:35:45] end Tim says, so curious, like how I’m excited to work with you, but how did you get to me? And Michael said, well, [00:35:50] we were in the locker room. And he said, I heard all the other players talking about this letter that they got. And he said, they were [00:35:55] saying that some coach was like basically stalking all of them wanting to, you know, to get their business or whatever.
And [00:36:00] he said, and I’ve always believed that the best of the best always keep getting better. And he [00:36:05] said, and I just wanted to know who the coach was that everybody was talking about. Hmm. But that lesson to me, [00:36:10] like talk about intentionality. I mean if when you live with intentional living, that [00:36:15] that is true what he said, the best of the best are always looking to get better.
So you’re always trying to see how [00:36:20] can I be more intentional with, you know, time, talent, treasures, whatever in your business and your day to [00:36:25] day. Um, so yeah, the book is all about that. And also just some personal stories shared in there too. [00:36:30]
Rory: Yeah. First book. Well, can you and tell everyone who’s Larry, because you said you’re talking [00:36:35] about Larissa.
They don’t know who Larry Larry is.
Dana: Oh my gosh. Larissa actually, how do you pronounce her last names?
Rory: [00:36:40] Salazar.
Dana: Salazar. Okay. I always don’t never wanna say it wrong. Larissa works with you for you, for brain builders and [00:36:45] she
Rory: with us.
Dana: With, yes, with you. And, um, she was not my first [00:36:50] coach. She was actually my second coach with brand builders.
Rory: Okay.
Dana: And oh my [00:36:55] gosh, now she coaches. My husband, my friend Tyler. I mean there’s um, [00:37:00] um, my friend Ashley. I mean, there’s so many
Rory: because you’re talking about, are you talking about Tyler Dicker? Who?
Dana: Yes.
Rory: Oh yeah. She coaches Tyler. [00:37:05]
Dana: Yeah, that’s right. Yeah, because Tyler’s like, you know, been with brand builders for a long time.
Yeah. I’m like, you need [00:37:10] Larissa. But, um, she’s helped me. I mean, oh my gosh. Right. You’re so blessed to have her. She is [00:37:15] just the best.
Rory: Yeah.
Dana: And she gets me, which is good.
Rory: She’s, she’s amazing. And, [00:37:20] and, and, you know, it’s like, I’m very deliberate about that. It’s like, she doesn’t work for me. She works for you.
Dana: Yeah. [00:37:25]
Rory: Right. Like, she works for herself. I love, but she works for you.
Dana: Yeah.
Rory: Uh, but we, we, we,
Dana: so she’s [00:37:30] so talented. Oh my
Rory: gosh. She’s incredible. And, and we have so many, Chris is over here. He’s one. [00:37:35] I, I’ll say, like I’ve said this a few other times, like the biggest compliment that [00:37:40] I get. Professionally
Dana: mm-hmm.
Rory: Is how do you get so many [00:37:45] amazing people to work as part of Brand Builders Group and, and it’s like, you know, Lord’s favor. [00:37:50]
Dana: Yes.
Rory: God’s blessing. Our team. Yeah. But it is like, our team is amazing.
Dana: I just [00:37:55] heard John say something. Um, actually it was at the event that you spoke at in, um, west Palm. I think you weren’t [00:38:00] there.
This was before you spoke. He said he was talking, he did his first lesson around team [00:38:05] building and um, just how to build really great teams and how to have. You know, team members forever. [00:38:10] And he shared a stat, I’m probably gonna butcher it, but he said something like. If after six [00:38:15] years you have more than eight people on your, with you in your organization that [00:38:20] have been with you for eight years or no.
That have been with you for six years or longer. So if you can look up and [00:38:25] identify eight people who’ve been with you six years or longer, he said you are like an anomaly. [00:38:30] That pe that that doesn’t happen with people, with leaders anymore. Business owners,
Rory: people don’t stay six years.
Dana: [00:38:35] No, not at all. And so he like, so he was talking about how to foreign to your team members and all [00:38:40] those things, but he said that.
Having long term tenured team, team members like [00:38:45] that is actually what creates other people that wanna be with you. Mm-hmm. Like, you get the best of the best. [00:38:50]
Rory: Well, and it, it’s going back to that thing as a leader. Mm-hmm. You know, and, and I [00:38:55] wanna ask you about being a person, about building personal brand and leadership in a second, but like [00:39:00] to that thing about learning and it’s one of John’s, uh, 21 irrefutable [00:39:05] laws of leadership.
I think the law of the lid, it’s like if you don’t grow as a leader, then people aren’t, can’t keep growing [00:39:10] themselves and then they’re gonna leave you
Dana: totally.
Rory: So I’m just, just [00:39:15] totally curious about this. So you have 600 agents.
Dana: Yes.
Rory: Would [00:39:20] you, you actively encourage them to go build a personal [00:39:25] brand? Like separate of like Yeah.
You and your team and Keller Williams and like
Dana: Yes.
Rory: You would [00:39:30] tell ’em to do that?
Dana: 100%, yes. Yeah. And here’s another reason. Okay. [00:39:35] One, because it’s the right thing for them. I mean, truthfully, that’s how they’re gonna grow their [00:39:40] business. Like I said earlier, I don’t want them to look up, I always tell my agents, I never want you to look up one day and say, [00:39:45] why did Dana never tell us this was gonna happen?
Or this, you know, wasn’t. And I also, you know, Gary [00:39:50] is like, Gary has this magic crystal ball of like the future of real estate. I don’t know what he, how he does it. [00:39:55] So I’m blessed to get to learn from him. But when you look at the personal brand side of things, I, [00:40:00] I just. I already see it, or I already see successful [00:40:05] agents who have had.
And leaders in general, I mean, who have had good [00:40:10] businesses, I already see them starting to go backwards because they aren’t building their personal [00:40:15] brand and it’s, I just, I think it’s so important. And then also I want them to [00:40:20] build their personal brands and have the biggest brand possible and be with me, because all that’s gonna do is attract [00:40:25] more people to us.
Rory: Mm-hmm.
Dana: That’s why the agent who just joined, who I’m gonna do the 12. I’m [00:40:30] like, yes, I would love for you to do that and come over and build your brand, because I want people to be like, wow, [00:40:35] look at him. He’s this huge agent and he’s, he’s with Keller Williams legacy girl. You know, he’s with [00:40:40] Dana. Like, I, I just think it will multiply.
Rory: Mm-hmm. Yeah. That, that’s [00:40:45] amazing. And that, and
Dana: I also think you can’t have a scarcity mindset around
Rory: losing I was just gonna say that that is [00:40:50] another key part of the mentality is it’s the abundance mentality to go,
Dana: yeah. [00:40:55]
Rory: I can’t help you win and me lose as a byproduct.
Dana: No.
Rory: Like, [00:41:00] if I help you win, I’m only gonna win.
And sometimes it It’s more indirect. Yeah. But it’s [00:41:05] like, it, it is that, and the people who are like, it, it’s kind of the old, the [00:41:10] old adage used to be, it was like. You know, you, you should, you should invest in training your people [00:41:15] and the manager’s like, well, I don’t wanna spend any money training ’em. What if they, what if I train ’em and they [00:41:20] leave?
Dana: Yeah.
Rory: And it’s like, well, the real question is, what if you don’t train ’em? And they stay?
Dana: Totally.
Rory: And that’s kind of like how the [00:41:25] personal brand thing mm-hmm. Is like, well, what if I help ’em build a personal brand? And they leave? And they’re like, well, what if you don’t? And they [00:41:30] stay, they’re not, they’re not gonna be growing and, and building, yeah.
Dana: And I’ve been telling mine even [00:41:35] in, you know, I just taught these big end of the year business planning clinics where I actually show them your data trend report and, [00:41:40] and have them download it and everything because I’m like, you guys, this is
Rory: you using your a affiliate link [00:41:45]
Dana: for that? Yes. Oh yeah. Yes I do.
Larissa taught me how to do that a year later, but yes, I am [00:41:50] now. But I even tell them then, you know, I almost feel, I don’t [00:41:55] wanna say pressure ’cause that’s. Kind of a negative word, but there is somewhat of a pressure for [00:42:00] me to Milt to build my brand because I can’t get on stage and tell them to do something that [00:42:05] I’m not doing
Rory: True.
Dana: Like that is not, you know, that would not be good. Like, I just, I [00:42:10] wouldn’t be able to, I don’t feel like that’s great leadership. And so part of the reason why I’ve been [00:42:15] investing so heavily in it myself is because I want to model it for them, and I also want [00:42:20] them to say, okay, wow. Well, if Dana’s telling us to do this and she’s doing it, then you [00:42:25] know I need to do it too.
I just don’t, I don’t know. I just don’t think people learn from leaders that are telling [00:42:30] them to do things, but they aren’t doing them themselves.
Rory: Yeah. One of our strategists, this is [00:42:35] another one of our strategists who’s awesome. His name’s Ben Klarik. He’s down, he’s downstairs actually right now.
Dana: Is he the podcast?[00:42:40]
Rory: No, that’s Matt.
Dana: Oh,
Rory: okay. He’s also awesome. I mean, they’re all awesome. They’re all awesome. Heart seems awesome, but, [00:42:45] but Ben told me something this morning, and this is a quote from him, is he said, you know, building a [00:42:50] personal brand is a professional insurance policy.
Dana: I love that.
Rory: And I was like, so [00:42:55] good.
Because he is like, what if the company goes outta business?
Dana: 100%.
Rory: What if you get laid off?
Dana: Yep.
Rory: What if AI [00:43:00] replaces that industry?
Dana: Yeah.
Rory: And it’s just like. If you have a personal brand, you pivot. No [00:43:05] problem. Yeah. Trust, you know, do the next thing.
Dana: It’s so true
Rory: and that’s, it’s really, really good.
Dana: Oh, I’m gonna use that.
[00:43:10] Well, and Gary Keller has been saying this thing, ’cause all these realtors specifically have been freaking out that [00:43:15] AI is gonna replace real estate agents or replace, you know, lenders or replace whoever. [00:43:20] And Gary came out maybe last year and said, um. He said it from stage and now everybody says it, [00:43:25] but he said, AI is not gonna replace realtors.
Other realtors that adopt [00:43:30] AI are going to replace the realtors that, that don’t. And I’ve been saying that about the personal [00:43:35] brands. Like I, I really believe that. I mean, I, I think that the ones that. In in [00:43:40] any business, not even real estate. I know there’s tons of people listening that aren’t in real estate.
Whatever business it is, if they [00:43:45] aren’t building a personal brand, the other, their competitor who is, is probably gonna be the one to take [00:43:50] market share from them.
Rory: Yes, yes. I think, I think that’s, I think that’s really, really true. [00:43:55] Alright.
Dana: And it all hit fast. I feel like
Rory: ai,
Dana: no, like just, I mean, [00:44:00] the personal branding, obviously personal branding and marketing has been a thing, but I feel like now, [00:44:05] just over the last several years you were like God’s timing on it.
Perfect. Because now I [00:44:10] just feel like it’s, people care so much about it more than they ever have before.
Rory: Yeah. [00:44:15] I think it’s like all the barriers of, of, uh. [00:44:20] Like having to have big media or a lot of a huge team. Mm-hmm. Or lots of [00:44:25] technology, you know, even now, like, uh, uh, we’re vibe coding, you know, we’re vibe coding [00:44:30] apps.
Like I vibe coded an app over the weekend that in our former company we spent [00:44:35] over $250,000 Wow. To build an app. I built it in like a few hours over the [00:44:40] weekend. That wild. And I never thought we’d be able to do that, and certainly that I never personally would be able to do it. [00:44:45] Um, I’ve been using AI to write songs.
This is a, I saw, this is my new distraction.
Dana: Brother or [00:44:50] sister-in-law, or sister or
Rory: somebody. Yeah. I have written five songs.
Dana: You need to talk to John Maxwell. You know, he’s been [00:44:55] writing songs with somebody in Nashville.
Rory: Has he really?
Dana: Yes.
Rory: I mean, because it’s, it’s
Dana: But [00:45:00] who was singing that one for their wedding?
Rory: It’s a ai. Ai, yeah. So I’m [00:45:05] writing them, it’s, I’m writing them. It’s them. But I’m able to use AI to put, to put the, to [00:45:10] the, the music and the voice, because I’ve always thought, I’ve always thought. I [00:45:15] would be a great songwriter because I’m a writer, right. And I’ll listen to songs on the radio and I’m like, if [00:45:20] they would’ve changed that word or this line, it would be so much better.
Dana: Love it.
Rory: But I cannot [00:45:25] sing at all. Like even in church, I’m almost like kind of quiet and like try to be in the front row so nobody can [00:45:30] hear me. ’cause the band’s so loud. And then, you know, music like, forget it, I can’t read it. I can’t, me neither. Can’t play [00:45:35] recorder. Like whatever. But I can now, I can write the lyrics and drop it into AI and it’s [00:45:40] like songs are.
Dana: Did they freak over that gift?
Rory: Yeah, they freaked out. So I wrote a, you [00:45:45] know, AJ asked me to write it for her brother. It
Dana: was her brother, yes. Okay.
Rory: For her brother was getting married and they [00:45:50] loved it. And then, um, and then AJ’s like, I want one for Christmas. So I wrote her a [00:45:55] song for Christmas, which no one has heard yet.
Oh,
Dana: that’s so
Rory: cool. And then I wrote a song [00:46:00] called, uh, well I don’t wanna say it yet ’cause it’s not published, but I wrote a song that is. [00:46:05] I’ve, I’ve written songs based on some of the most viral concepts that I’ve taught in personal development. Wow. [00:46:10] And by turning them into songs.
Dana: And you’re right here in Nashville, like you need to hook up with [00:46:15] somebody
Rory: that, yeah.
Right. So, you know,
Dana: that’s so cool. But.
Rory: You know, diluted [00:46:20] focus, diluted results. That’s like our mantra. So I’m just like,
Dana: so you could just keep it as a hobby.
Rory: It just needs to be a [00:46:25] hobby. It just needs to be, it just needs to be a hobby. But, um, you know, I think that the [00:46:30] world is changing and it’s like, whether we like it or not, it is.
Yeah. It’s just the question should not [00:46:35] be whether you like it or not, that’s completely irrelevant. It’s just like, how are you [00:46:40] going to use this? Yep. And, um, you, we have to be thinking that [00:46:45] way. Mm-hmm. And, and, and I love it. So,
Dana: yeah.
Rory: Um. Where do you want people to go [00:46:50] to learn more about you? Yes. If they happen to be looking for a career in real estate, that obviously [00:46:55] they can come.
Dana: Ah, that’d
Rory: be great. Find you. And you know, if they wanna move an entire team over to you now [00:47:00] we know that’s possible and, and brand builders can be part of the package.
Dana: Yes. Love
Rory: it. [00:47:05] But other than that, where do people go to find you and learn about the book?
Dana: Yes. Okay. So they can learn about the [00:47:10] [email protected].
Okay. I have tons of, um. Oh, what do we [00:47:15] call ’em? Um,
Rory: pre-order incentives and
Dana: bonuses. Yes, incentives. Bonus. I have all the things on there. [00:47:20] And then they can also follow me on Instagram. It’s Dana g Gentry. [00:47:25] And also I did put together a freebie of my exact intentional [00:47:30] morning routine. So if someone’s listening and you follow me on Instagram, you can just DM me the [00:47:35] word Rory, and I’ll send you the uh, I got my own keyword.
Yeah, you got your own keyword. And I’ll [00:47:40] send you the morning, my intentional morning routine.
Rory: Yeah, I love that. Yeah. Um, [00:47:45] so I, I’ve got one last question for you, but be before I just ask that, I just, I just [00:47:50] want to acknowledge Dana, like I love who you are. I admire the [00:47:55] marriage that you have with Adam. The way you build business, the way you invest in yourself, the way you invest in [00:48:00] other people, the way that you serve.
You know that you’ve moved from [00:48:05] success to significance in service. Um, the, the people in your network [00:48:10] and the. Your, in your willingness to innovate. Right. [00:48:15] And go like, Hey, I’m gonna learn personal branding and like, apply that to real estate. And, and what’s [00:48:20] in edifying for me is to see the fruit you’re experiencing in your life.
Dana: Yeah.
WWK Ep 009: From Devastation to Purpose: How One Mom Became the “Special Education Boss” with Karen Meyer Cunningham
Karen: [00:00:00] When he’s about 18 months old, we took him to the doctor and after that he started putting his head through the [00:00:05] sheet rock at our house. Um, and just became very sick and lost all of his [00:00:10] milestones. He lost his ability to speak and just was so dysregulated. About a [00:00:15] year later, he went to a professional clinician and uh, she evaluated him and she [00:00:20] was very not warm and fuzzy, and she’s like, well, he has autism.
He has classic [00:00:25] autism. He has 15 of the 16 markers. He’ll never play with other children. He won’t have any [00:00:30] friends. You’ll probably have to put him in a home when he grows up. Do you want a copy of the report? [00:00:35] So,
Rory: whoa.
Karen: Happy Tuesday. And so I, um, was devastated.[00:00:40] [00:00:45] [00:00:50]
Rory: Hey, if you [00:00:55] hang around here, we talk about finding your uniqueness and [00:01:00] serving the person that you once were exploiting your uniqueness in the service of others. We believe that [00:01:05] if you have diluted focus, you get diluted results, and if you niche down and really focus [00:01:10] on serving the person, you, whoever you can, in the deepest way, you’ll build a great business.[00:01:15]
A big personal brand. And today we’ve got a real life story of a brand builder, [00:01:20] a friend, and someone who is changing the industry and in many ways [00:01:25] changing the world. And she has done this exact thing. She has done what people [00:01:30] refuse to do. She has narrowed down, she has focused in, she has leaned in in it [00:01:35] in terms of serving a topic and a market.
And her topic, when you hear this. [00:01:40] You’re gonna be like, whoa, that is very specific. And so I’m gonna actually [00:01:45] read this ’cause I don’t wanna get it wrong about what her real expertise is and, but I’ve [00:01:50] invited her on the show. We’re gonna talk about her story, about how she’s building her personal brand.
Okay? So listen to this. [00:01:55] So Karen Mayer Cunningham is a nationally recognized special education. [00:02:00] Advocate, speaker and mediator with over two decades of experience guiding families and [00:02:05] educators and professionals through the complexities of special [00:02:10] education systems. So online, she is known as special education [00:02:15] boss, and this is such a narrow niche.
So her expertise [00:02:20] is in. Idea IDEA, section 5 0 4 and [00:02:25] disability advocacy. So she has a clear commitment to ensuring equitable access and [00:02:30] meaningful outcomes for students with disabilities. So what does that mean? She [00:02:35] helps parents and teachers and schools and students who are struggling with disabilities.[00:02:40]
To create individual educational plans. She’s the author of this brand new [00:02:45] book, the Epic IEP, which is available from none other than Mission [00:02:50] Driven Press. This woman is changing the world, dominating space and get this, [00:02:55] she has over a million followers online [00:03:00] in this very, very specific vertical. She’s a friend.
She’s a delight. You [00:03:05] inspire me. Karen, thanks for being here.
Karen: Oh, thank you so much for having me, Roy.
Rory: So. [00:03:10] Tell us a story. You know, you, we say you’re most powerfully positioned to serve the person you once [00:03:15] were. I feel like you are. You are in so many ways, a living, [00:03:20] breathing, shining example of what we want to be about at Brand Builders Group and now Mission-Driven Press.[00:03:25]
Tell us the story of how you got into this very [00:03:30] specific spot that you occupy.
Karen: Sure. So I had, um, a perfect child. Um, [00:03:35] he was born, I think he got a nine on his Apgar at the hospital. I think that’s like an honor roll and [00:03:40] everything was great. And, um, when he’s about 18 months old, we took him to the doctor.
Um, [00:03:45] after that he started putting his head through the sheet rock at our house. Um, and just [00:03:50] became very sick and, um, lost all of his milestones. He lost his ability to [00:03:55] speak, um, and just was so dysregulated. And we started this process of trying to find [00:04:00] out what was going on with him. And about a year later we went to a professional.
[00:04:05] A professional clinician and uh, she evaluated him and she was very not warm and [00:04:10] fuzzy. And she’s like, well, he has autism. He has classic autism. He has 15 of [00:04:15] the 16 markers. He’ll never play with other children. He won’t have any friends. You’ll probably have to put [00:04:20] him in a home when he grows up. Do you want a copy of the report?
So,
Rory: whoa.
Karen: [00:04:25] Happy Tuesday. And so I, um, was devastated. I knew there was something terribly, [00:04:30] terribly wrong.
And
Rory: you said this is like, he’s 18 months, like he’s not even two years old.
Karen: He’s like two years old at this point. [00:04:35] And, um, you know, I was searching for answers and um, I remember getting in my car that day, [00:04:40] just devastated holding this report.
And, um, I thought, you know, if me [00:04:45] and Oprah and God can figure this out, we’re gonna figure this out. Because there is [00:04:50] no way that is the destiny on his life. Like not with me being his mother. That can’t [00:04:55] possibly be true. And so we started the process and one of my friends told me that if [00:05:00] you’re speech delayed, um, you can start school as early as three.
I was like, fantastic. [00:05:05] That’s what we’ll do. We took him, got him evaluated, he he met criteria and we send ’em across the [00:05:10] street with an original Lion King back. Lion King backpack. I’d like to say that and ’cause that’s what you do. [00:05:15] You send kids to school and they fix them. If there’s something wrong with them, they’ll just fix them.
And so he [00:05:20] went to school and a few weeks later there was a knock at the door and my husband called me at [00:05:25] my salon. Um, and sometimes I’m humorous, so he said, I’m not kidding, [00:05:30] which is probably a good intro for me. And he said, there’s somebody here from Child Protective Services. [00:05:35] Uh, they’ve checked James for Marks because he’s been reported that we’re harming him.
She would like to [00:05:40] talk to you. Is now a good time? Not your average phone call. [00:05:45] So I said, yeah, now’s a good time. And she was very aggressive. And she goes, do you think it’s normal that he rocks [00:05:50] all the time? No. Do you think it’s normal that he chew his fingers so they bleed? No. Do you think it’s normal that he lost [00:05:55] all of his language?
No. Um, what are you gonna do about it? I said, well, we’re sending him to school for [00:06:00] preschool programs for kids with disabilities. Well, that’s what your husband said too. And I’m [00:06:05] gonna leave a brochure here in case we take him into custody. And that was my entrance in the mid [00:06:10] nineties, uh, to special education.
As I was devastated that night, crying [00:06:15] my eyes out, I just had this resolve that this cannot be the chaos that we’re [00:06:20] walking through. And so, um, I went down, um, to the school like a lunatic [00:06:25] mother and, um, was, you know, crying and everybody’s looking at me like, I am a lunatic. And this is the [00:06:30] nineties. And nobody knew what, um, autism was.
I remember somebody used to say, do you, does he count cards, [00:06:35] ma’am, that was a movie. No, we don’t take him to Vegas and have him count cards and a pull up. That’s that’s a [00:06:40] movie.
Rory: Yeah. This, I mean that I feel like. You know, the world isn’t always getting better in [00:06:45] some ways, but, but back then, I think people have been a little more, sens have become more sensitive.
Yes. But [00:06:50] back in the nineties it was like,
Karen: yeah,
Rory: they’re, these are jokes and I don’t care and you are slowing us [00:06:55] down and why are you here and what’s wrong with you?
Karen: Absolutely. And so the tea, somebody [00:07:00] called us and reported us a second time and at that point I was like, we’re not doing this. And I drove down [00:07:05] to, um, the child protective offices and I don’t recommend that anybody do what I did.
And I [00:07:10] had my cart and every mom and dad and grandparent with a kid with a disability. That what I’m talking about, you [00:07:15] know, your cart, it’s your cart of paperwork. And I just rolled it down there and I said, I wanna see my case [00:07:20] manager. Of course it’s not your case manager. And the police officer was like, okay.
So we went up [00:07:25] to the elevator and I walked down the hall. My, um, you know, [00:07:30] representative from Child Protective Services and I think she might have been 22 years old in one day. And here [00:07:35] I am at her door and I said, do you know, know anything about [00:07:40] autism? And she said, um, I think when I was a sophomore, I had a [00:07:45] seminar.
And I thought, are you my leader? And that was the first person that day [00:07:50] that ever gave me a resource. And she handed me a card for MHMR of Travis County. [00:07:55] And it’s an agency that helps with kids with disabilities. And I thought, why am I a [00:08:00] child protective service office? And the first person that resources me.
Is this person [00:08:05] and I, um, started finding out information and, and connecting with our state board of [00:08:10] education and I just became in love with these kiddos in love with this law and in love with, [00:08:15] you know, helping parents. And, um, that’s how I got my entrance. I was,
Rory: this started out of [00:08:20] desperation. This wasn’t a plan, this wasn’t a desire, this was a desperate [00:08:25] situation.
Karen: Yeah,
Rory: my son needs help.
Karen: Absolutely
Rory: nobody has. Where do [00:08:30] I go? What do I do?
Karen: Yeah. There was no direction, there was no help. And I thought, you know, and, and it’s very shame [00:08:35] based when you have, often, when you have a child with a disability, parents are ashamed that [00:08:40] their child with a disability might be upsetting your birthday party or church service or [00:08:45] Christmas.
Rory: Sure.
Karen: Yeah.
Rory: Um, so [00:08:50] you start this for your son, at which point [00:08:55] does it translate into. Oh, other people [00:09:00] are struggling with this and I could be useful to them.
Karen: Just immediately, [00:09:05] just immediately. I thought that, remember at the beginning I thought these people at the school, they know what to [00:09:10] do and they’re plotting against me and they won’t do it.
And the truth is, God [00:09:15] bless teachers, we love them. They went to school to teach. They went to school even to be special education [00:09:20] teachers. We as school districts do not train our most valuable resource in school [00:09:25] teachers about special education application obligations or duties. [00:09:30] There were just a bunch of nice people trying to help my son, but if we don’t know those [00:09:35] requirements, you might be handicapping a child even more.
And I just, um, [00:09:40] began helping people and helping them get it right. It was really bumpy at the beginning. [00:09:45] Um, but what I always say is, when we get it right for the child, we get it right for everybody, and we can do that. [00:09:50]
Rory: You were helping other parents?
Karen: [00:09:55] Yes.
Rory: And you were interfacing with the schools?
Karen: Yes.
Rory: And then the school boards, and [00:10:00] then at some point you start getting into these laws.
Right. I mean, as I, as I understand, it’s like [00:10:05] there’s a very. Complex set of laws [00:10:10] that the average parent of a, a student with disabilities [00:10:15] cannot interpret, does not want to read, understand, and you kind of become [00:10:20] this bridge almost to go, Hey, here’s what this means. Here’s how to interpret this, [00:10:25] here’s how to use it.
Is that.
Karen: Absolutely. So, I mean, the federal statute [00:10:30] has been whittled down to 115 codes. If you’re ever, you know, having struggled, struggling to sleep at night, [00:10:35] just read the federal law, it’s so enjoyable and nobody has time to read it. And you know, it [00:10:40] happened 50 years ago, but it brings equity and it builds a bridge over the [00:10:45] barrier that is disabilities.
Uhhuh.
Rory: And then, and then what’s the. [00:10:50] How, how are you engaging with schools at this? Like at this point, like back then, or [00:10:55] even, are they receptive to you? Are they like not, Hey, you’re not one of us. Like, [00:11:00] how did that all
Karen: happen? You know, I thought they were gonna be receptive. Well, we [00:11:05] right, and we thought there’d be an easier, softer way.
We were wrong. I remember, I always tell God that I wanted to be [00:11:10] popular and he said no, I was really looking for effective. And I was, no, I was going for popular [00:11:15] because I’m coming into an agency, a bureaucracy. Um, and they do things a [00:11:20] certain way,
Rory: right?
Karen: And if I bring you in in January and we want funding for your child [00:11:25] for disabilities, all that money was spent July 1st of the fiscal year.[00:11:30]
The money’s not there, the hands aren’t there, the services aren’t there. And [00:11:35] so people were getting a child’s individualized education program, but it was very [00:11:40] baseline. It didn’t have specificity, it wasn’t tied to the child’s unique circumstances. [00:11:45] And so, you know, my job is to walk alongside parents. I don’t think there’s a greater honor than to walk [00:11:50] alongside a child’s educational healing and make sure that what we provide to them in an [00:11:55] epic IEP changes their life for the next 80 years.
Rory: [00:12:00] So when did this become professional, I guess? You know, it’s like it starts [00:12:05] personal. People start asking, you’re kind of like sticking your nose in places, getting stuff done, [00:12:10] knocking down walls.
Karen: Yeah.
Rory: And then at some point it tips into like. [00:12:15] This is, this is my, not just, it’s a calling and it’s a career.
When did that, [00:12:20] when did that happen?
Karen: Probably about 2010. And you know, I always,
Rory: okay, so this is like [00:12:25] 15, 20 years later.
Karen: Yes. And it’s one of those things I couldn’t not do it [00:12:30] right. And that’s how you know what you’re supposed to do. Like you just couldn’t not do it. If this wasn’t a [00:12:35] vocation, I would still want to equip teams and parents and [00:12:40] advocates serving kiddos.
I couldn’t get it outta my bones.
Rory: So you started your own business [00:12:45] right out of the gate. At this point you’re like, other people need and so and so your [00:12:50] son now is. Out of the school system. Yeah. Right, right. So, so that happens and you realize, [00:12:55] okay, there’s a need here.
Karen: Yes.
Rory: And I can do this. And so is special education boss [00:13:00] born right away, 2010 And like,
Karen: we didn’t call it that, but yes, they invented [00:13:05] this thing called social media.
I don’t know if you’ve heard of it. It’s on the interweb. Um, it was more of a [00:13:10] panic. I wanted people, the masses to know the truth. And there’s so [00:13:15] much misinformation in schools about special education. It’s not malicious. Just [00:13:20] as Bob was trained by Carol, who was trained by Terry, who was trained by John, none of [00:13:25] them know anything about special education law and they’re just sort of lumbering through it.
And [00:13:30] the specificity, that specificity that you get with an epic IP changes a child’s [00:13:35] entire life. It gives a family hope and it gives a child a future. And I think often [00:13:40] we don’t consider children with disabilities equal ROI on our investment. [00:13:45] You know, kids with disabilities are probably not going to be a school board meeting photo op, [00:13:50] but you know what, those children have the same value as any other child.
Rory: [00:13:55] So did you get on social media right away? Is that where this all kind of
Karen: started? I think I was looking back and um, [00:14:00] my original email was Karen Haha, mayor, 2000 at Yahoo. I, [00:14:05] I felt like that had a flow to it and, um. I just, yeah, I was just sort of, you know, [00:14:10] the mouth of the south and I still am. I’m like, that’s not true.
This isn’t true. This [00:14:15] happened at my meeting. This is how you shut it down. And hopefully I’m a little more refined now
Rory: on [00:14:20] social though.
Karen: Oh yeah. If I’ve got something to say, I’m just gonna say it. Uhhuh. Yeah. I don’t make it pretty and [00:14:25] pristine. I make it powerful.
Rory: Okay, so, so you were early to social media.
Karen: Yes.
Rory: [00:14:30] Did you ever think you would have. Million followers? No.
Karen: Oh, no, no, no, no, no, [00:14:35] no. And it really exploded Friday, February 13th, 2020. [00:14:40] Our governor came on the news and he said schools were closed down for the pandemic. And in that moment I [00:14:45] realized that I was unemployed. That’s what I do. I go into school district two and three times a day [00:14:50] serving families in person.
I represent the the family with a child with disability. And we go into the school and have [00:14:55] the meeting and I was like, oh my gosh, now I’m bankrupt. Unemployed. And my two [00:15:00] boys went down to Ace Hardware and they got me this thing called an ethernet cord. I don’t know if they have ’em here in [00:15:05] Nashville, but it takes the ether and the net and then their one accord.
And then I was like, go tell it [00:15:10] on a mountain. And I would go live every week night at nine o’clock because I felt like that’s a good time [00:15:15] with a little extra concealer. And I was like, we’re not doing this. We’re not doing this. And then it [00:15:20] just opened this bridge for me to serve families across the nation.
Rory: Okay. So, but that’s like 10 years [00:15:25] later. So. So you’re saying for 10 years you were serving families like [00:15:30] one at a time.
Karen: Drive to this school district, drive to this junior high. You can [00:15:35] Pringles get to this school district, have a Red Bull, do it again tomorrow,
Rory: and the, and the parents are hiring you.
Karen: [00:15:40] Yes.
Schools are not wanting me to come in and, you know, turn over the [00:15:45] apple cart for some reason.
Rory: So the parents are hiring you to help navigate and apply the [00:15:50] law, make sure the school’s applying the law, create a plan, right. For their kid. And that’s absolutely, but then when [00:15:55] schools get shut down, you’re like.
Oh, well that just disappeared overnight. And that’s really when you [00:16:00] leaned into the, to, to social and the internet.
Karen: No, it, it, it didn’t disappear. It exploded it. So [00:16:05] now I’m serving families in the Kodiak Islands and Miami-Dade County on the same day.
Rory: What you knew [00:16:10] up until that point
Karen: Yeah,
Rory: absolutely. Was like gone.
Karen: Yes.
Rory: And then all of a sudden [00:16:15] it’s like, oh, it’s not gone. Yeah. It actually just exploded.
Karen: Yeah. Yeah.
Rory: And that’s ’cause you like grabbed the [00:16:20] microphone and the ethernet cable, but like. You still didn’t have a business. So did you have a, I [00:16:25] mean, you didn’t have a business, your business model was
Karen: My business model gone, was like, I’m just gonna tell all these people.
And [00:16:30] then I started doing these little, um, trainings inside of a LaQuinta [00:16:35] on the freeway and you know, eight or five people would come.
Rory: Three. Great speaker has a LaQuinta story. No,
Karen: LaQuinta. Yeah. [00:16:40] That’s a
Rory: part of the
Karen: Yeah. Yeah. No food. But, um, burnt coffee. Uhhuh. Yeah. Yeah. [00:16:45]
Rory: So you were hosting trainings? Yeah.
Okay. So, so you’re on social, so your whole business model now [00:16:50] is gone.
Karen: Yeah.
Rory: Um. You take the mic, you start [00:16:55] talking, and then you realize, okay, I’m just gonna start selling. You are already doing a business [00:17:00] to consumer model.
Karen: Right?
Rory: And then you just thought, okay, I’m gonna basically do more of like an [00:17:05] education versus like a, like a consulting kind of relationship.
Karen: Right? So I wanna train other special education bosses. [00:17:10] There’s eight and a half million children in America with an IEP. We need advocates. [00:17:15] Advocates don’t exist for kids with disabilities. We need them. And so I’d go train, you know, eight [00:17:20] people on the weekend with my binder that was 74 inches tall.
’cause I’d love a printout.
Rory: [00:17:25] Mm-hmm.
Karen: And they were like, oh, this is overwhelming. I can’t do it. I was like, why not? What’s overwhelming about it? [00:17:30] And so everything that I like is big, but if you are gonna serve people, people do not buy what they need. [00:17:35] People buy what they want.
Rory: Sure.
Karen: And if you don’t know what they want and are able to give it to ’em [00:17:40] in ways that are palpable and actionable, then you’ve just motivated them.
Right. [00:17:45] Information. Um, with no application is motivation. I don’t wanna motivate you, I want to equip you. [00:17:50] So I worked on refining that, which is, is that I do for training. [00:17:55]
Rory: So, so what’s your business, what’s your actual business model today? Because I, again, part of the [00:18:00] story, the story is just inspiring what you do and, and who you do it for.[00:18:05]
Also, I think it’s such a great example of how anybody [00:18:10] who has been faced with pain a problem, a setback, [00:18:15] you know, a heartache. Like I don’t think you would’ve designed your life initially to [00:18:20] say, oh, my son’s gonna have autism. We’re gonna struggle through this. But then there’s this beautiful [00:18:25] movement that comes out of it.
Yeah. Um. You’ve turned that into a movement and [00:18:30] into a business, uh, impact and income. So then, so then what, what was the business model? [00:18:35] Was it just classes? Like basically you’re going on social and you’re saying, buy a ticket. Come, come to this class and [00:18:40] I’ll teach you the system.
Karen: Yeah. I’ll, I’ll make you a MiniMe.
Yes. And that was, it was not, it [00:18:45] was, you know, it’s hard to lumber through families with a child with a disability that want, might wanna be [00:18:50] an advocate. It’s hard for them to get a babysitter. It just had a lot of, you know, barriers. And [00:18:55] so, um, you know, I started Special Education Academy about five years ago and [00:19:00] I just said, well, I’ll go live every Monday night.
I’ll just go live. I always like say these things and I’m like, oh, who’s gonna do [00:19:05] that? That’d be you, Karen. And so I’ve gone live every Monday night for five [00:19:10] years and it’s an hour training. Special education academy that has a good ring to it. [00:19:15] Right. And I thought all of these parents would log on and join the academy.
That did not happen.
Rory: [00:19:20] Huh?
Karen: 75% of the people that I train are school employees.
Rory: [00:19:25] Wow.
Karen: For this big mouth college dropout.
Rory: So [00:19:30] there’s several things there.
Karen: Yeah.
Rory: You are saying, first of all, you’ve been going [00:19:35] live.
Karen: Mm-hmm.
Rory: For an hour.
Karen: One hour
Rory: for free,
Karen: for free. [00:19:40] Every, it’s not, it’s not free. So the Academy is a membership?
Rory: Ah,
Karen: yeah. The Academy is a membership. It’s [00:19:45] $97 a month, but it’s live an hour, about an hour and a half every Monday.
Rory: So it’s [00:19:50] 97 bucks. Mm-hmm. But they, you put four hours of live training every month. Yeah. And you’re [00:19:55] addressing topics and
Karen: S series. We archive them. Now there’s over 400 hours of [00:20:00] pass trainings.
We open it up for questions. Whatever question you’re having, because every seven days you [00:20:05] need some support in special education. ’cause this is not like, oh, we’re gonna go look for a car, we’re gonna look for a [00:20:10] house. It’s an emergency room. Mm-hmm. Special education’s the emergency room. We have to get it right right [00:20:15] now.
Rory: Um, and so that there, there it is. So that’s the business [00:20:20] model is a hundred bucks a month. Usually
Karen: go live for an hour, four times a month. [00:20:25] It’s so simple. People are like, no, no, but really what do you do? I go live, and you know what Rory, I don’t wanna say this to [00:20:30] everybody, but it’s on an Android. I use an Android ’cause I’m not gonna celebrate the fall of the Garden [00:20:35] of Eden, but that’s another training on a $50 Joby.
I go live on my phone. I [00:20:40] don’t edit it, I don’t cut it. I don’t know how to do all that. I don’t know how to put something in the chat, but I do know [00:20:45] how to bring a message to people that are desperate for these truths.
Rory: Come on. [00:20:50] So they, so then how do you. What system do you [00:20:55] use for to collect their money?
And like where, where are they going live? Because you’re not, so I was thinking you were [00:21:00] going live on social. You’re not doing that.
Karen: It’s a Zoom platform, right? It’s a Zoom. So you join, so you go to [00:21:05] Special Education Academy, you go to training, you join us,
Rory: and then you start email ’em. Here’s the link for this week.[00:21:10]
Karen: Yeah, it’s very fancy
Rory: Uhhuh.
Karen: Yes.
Rory: Um, that’s amazing.
Karen: [00:21:15] It’s very,
Rory: and you just start doing, and then people come and go, like
Karen: do
Rory: their month
Karen: in, goes out. Yes. And sometimes, you know, if it’s a July 4th or [00:21:20] something, I might take off too. It’s like I miss them, they miss me. We are this amazing family [00:21:25] that resources each other.
We can trust each other. Um, ’cause there’s a lot of [00:21:30] mistrust between families and school districts and it’s about bad [00:21:35] information. It’s not about being malice, right. It’s bad information. We don’t know. There’s a [00:21:40] reason that surgeons don’t operate on their own child. Right? And here we [00:21:45] all are, are trying to make up something and fill out software.
It’s not about software, it’s about [00:21:50] a student. Right. And so the reason I wrote the book is it’s the seven pillars [00:21:55] that I use, whether it’s my child or any other child or any of the thousands of advocates that I’ve [00:22:00] trained nationally, that after you have this, you could literally take a piece of paper and write the IEP, [00:22:05] right?
And we were so busy checking boxes in software, we forgot that this [00:22:10] plan is as important as a prescription. When you have a prescription, it doesn’t say, just [00:22:15] grab a handful when you feel like it. It’s very specific for your need. [00:22:20] Epic IP is super specific for that child’s need,
Rory: and [00:22:25] so it’s a, it’s a consistent system.
Karen: Yeah.
Rory: That creates a customized plan for [00:22:30] each family. Each student,
Karen: yeah.
Rory: As they go through this, how do [00:22:35] you get the clients. How do you, what’s your, what, what’s the, what’s [00:22:40] the sales process like?
Karen: It’s no sales. Say it with me. There’s no sales [00:22:45] process. There’s no team, there’s no outbound, there’s no inbound.
It’s just, [00:22:50] it’s speed and volume. I, I heard this guy a few years ago, you might have heard of him, Gary Vaynerchuk. [00:22:55] He was talking to this other guy, Mr. Wonderful, and he said in 2021, if you are not on [00:23:00] TikTok, you are an idiot. And I’m a lot of things. Idiots, not one of them. And so [00:23:05] I just started going live and now we put out 52 pieces of content every [00:23:10] 24 hours across seven platforms.
Because you know what? [00:23:15] People need the information. I could spend time, I guess, making it fancy and pretty [00:23:20] and fade in and out in a carousel and drop this. People just need the information and people care [00:23:25] about two things, good audio and phenomenal content. Hmm, and so many [00:23:30] people that I would love to help grow their businesses are so busy.
Getting ready to get ready [00:23:35] and perfect is never done, and done is never perfect. And whatever your message is. [00:23:40] People need it now. Not when you’ve got it all shiny and pretty. [00:23:45]
Rory: So you are going live on social to attract, yeah. To build, to [00:23:50] build the customer base.
Karen: Absolutely. Yeah.
Rory: Okay. So you went, so what’s that?
What’s that schedule look like?
Karen: [00:23:55] Every Monday for an hour at 5 45 Central standard time I go live [00:24:00] on TikTok. On my Android because I don’t know how to make it work on a laptop. [00:24:05] And then one of my, uh, partners is on a Zoom link on another laptop. She [00:24:10] reads the questions on the live for TikTok ’cause they come fast and I answer them question, [00:24:15] answer, question, answer, question, answer.
’cause that’s about all people can tolerate. Question, [00:24:20] answer, and we get about 22 to 29,000 people every Monday [00:24:25] night popping in and out.
Rory: 20,000 people every Monday [00:24:30] just popping in with a question.
Karen: Well, they pop in and out of your live, but when we close it out, we have over a [00:24:35] hundred questions still not answered because that’s what people want.
They need their an question answered [00:24:40] right now. And so then I have a VA and she cuts it up, question, answer, question, [00:24:45] answer, and we post that. And so probably in an hour I can [00:24:50] answer 80 questions.
Rory: You’re doing a one hour live on Monday [00:24:55] night for free. That’s just an open q and a for the whole world. That is free.
Karen: Free.
Rory: And [00:25:00] then that. Points to buying the, a monthly subscription with a, a more [00:25:05] closed
Karen: program. Yeah. Well, it’s, we don’t have to buy it. You can just join the academy for free. Of course. It’s free, it’s free for [00:25:10] everybody. Even my first husband. So, um, you just go to Special Education Academy and you join us for a [00:25:15] month.
It’s free. If you wanna stay, we’re glad to have you.
Rory: Oh, okay. So the first month you give the first month free.
Karen: [00:25:20] Yeah. Yeah.
Rory: And then after that they, they start paying.
Karen: Yeah. And so we go live at about 6:00 PM [00:25:25] and then I say, I’ll see you guys in the academy at eight. It’s a very complex [00:25:30] model. I don’t know if you understood that.
We go live at six and then I say, I’ll see you at eight in the [00:25:35] academy. You probably wanna write that down. Save this. So yeah, and then now it’s [00:25:40] progressed and we have a VIP at 7:00 PM for people that are full-time advocates that have taken our [00:25:45] other products, bought our digital courses. We have a two day course, we have a six week mastermind [00:25:50] for people that want to use our processes, protocols, and pathways to be amazing.
[00:25:55] And you know, the need just keeps growing.
Rory: So you’re, you’re serving a, a, a [00:26:00] segment of that, of those customers in a deeper way.
Karen: Yes.
Rory: But, but the main thing is just free [00:26:05] live and then see it eight a simple monthly, like, hop on here and come on, rock and roll. Surely it didn’t [00:26:10] start with 20,000 people. So that’s built, built up.
That’s built it, built up, built up over, [00:26:15] over time. I think that’s so fascinating. I mean, that’s just such a simple [00:26:20] model.
Karen: It’s the same model. We didn’t, we didn’t change it because if it works, you should probably keep [00:26:25] doing it.
Rory: Uhhuh.
Karen: Yeah,
Rory: but it just, the, the, the idea that you can just go live [00:26:30] and, I mean,
Karen: yeah,
Rory: there’s no team.
There’s no, it’s like you have a phone
Karen: with the, the app. [00:26:35] I’m a one-armed wallpaper hanger. Houston, Texas. I make sure that I have plenty of hairspray and of course, the correct [00:26:40] lipstick and just answer their questions. People are desperate in this space. Whatever space [00:26:45] you’re serving, they need your knowledge.
They don’t need fancy and shiny. They [00:26:50] need your help. Now,
Rory: can I, okay, so here’s a emotional [00:26:55] fear question.
Karen: Mm-hmm.
Rory: I know there’s a lot of people listening who do [00:27:00] something where they feel guilty charging for it.
Karen: Mm-hmm. [00:27:05]
Rory: Because they go. I just want to help people. I just wanna serve people, [00:27:10] but. I need to make money, but like also I feel weird charging.
[00:27:15] It’s like I work in a church and I can’t tell, or I help people with their marriage or, um, have you ever [00:27:20] had any of that? Like, and how do you get, how do you get past that where you’re like, Hey, I’m, I’m helping, I mean, [00:27:25] I’m helping kids with disabilities. Like, but you, you, I mean, you’re also not charging [00:27:30] a ton of money, but has any of that ha like how.
Navigating that. It’s
Karen: funny that you said that. ’cause my husband used to always say, [00:27:35] is this a PM or an fm? Is this a paid ministry or a free ministry? Right. [00:27:40] And so I have, um, if you just go to my Instagram account, I have 10,000 pieces [00:27:45] of content. So I’ve been giving away and I will continue to give away.
I love doing [00:27:50] that. But people that pay, pay attention. Um, and so this [00:27:55] drives. It helps people wherever they are. Um, you know, I’ve spoken at [00:28:00] churches before and people are like, are you charging us for prayer? No. The prayer’s free with purchase, right? [00:28:05] I’m charging you for my expertise and time. That would be very normal when you go get your car [00:28:10] worked on or talk to your realtor.
You’re paying for their expertise and time. [00:28:15] So, um, it’s grown into a business. I have full-time partners now. I educate [00:28:20] advocates, I do professional developments. We go into juvenile justice centers, hospitals. [00:28:25] The need is endless, and I’m doing my very best to serve them at the highest [00:28:30] level.
Rory: How do you draw the line between what you give away for free and what [00:28:35] you charge for in the academy?
Karen: Um, I, there’s no line. Hopefully one day we’re putting out 200 pieces of [00:28:40] content a day. It is my good pleasure to serve somebody. That [00:28:45] was where I was. You know, I, I get to go a lot of places and travel and when somebody comes up to [00:28:50] you and goes, are you sp? And I’m like, yes, I am. She goes, would it be really weird if I took a picture [00:28:55] with you?
I’m like, well, you’re crying in public, so get over here. Right? So when we go somewhere and [00:29:00] somebody is. I am a mom from Michigan, and I did what you said in the videos, and it was a [00:29:05] bumpy meeting, but I held my position and now my daughter’s reading. Like, that’s everything. [00:29:10] I mean, you can’t outgive, God, I can’t outgive, you know, the, I would, I would never [00:29:15] forget what he’s done for me and my family.
Um, and it’s a blessing to walk in this space. It’s [00:29:20] very polarizing. People either adore or adore you or they’re recalled by you. [00:29:25] I’ll take ’em both. If you’re gonna be online, you are going to be loved and not loved. [00:29:30] Get over it. You’re not that big of a deal.
Rory: Yeah. How do you, I mean, you know, you talk about, [00:29:35] you talk about God, you talk about Jesus, you say, I, I, you know, I, I we’re gonna do this.
We’re not gonna [00:29:40] do that. You’re very direct. Do you not, you just [00:29:45] don’t worry about haters. They don’t bother you. Like, what’s the, I mean, how do you [00:29:50] deal with that?
Karen: So, I’m semi grown and I’m, I’m 60.1 years old, heavy on the [00:29:55] 0.1. People are going to like you or not like you. That has nothing to do with me. [00:30:00] My job is to get up every day and try to walk through with the spirit of excellence, and I’m gonna try to do a little bit better [00:30:05] tomorrow.
People are hurting. That’s why they type. But if that’s going to stop [00:30:10] you from giving out your message, then you’ve already lost. The [00:30:15] accolades and the put downs. Neither one of them are probably really accurate, but I know that if I get up [00:30:20] every day doing what God’s called me to do, that I can put my head down on my pillow and know it’s been a good [00:30:25] day.
Rory: This is so cool. And there’s, I know there’s people listening right now that go I, I. You [00:30:30] know, I have what they might think is a very random or, you know, narrow specific [00:30:35] thing.
Karen: Yeah.
Rory: And it’s like there’s so many people in the world, like you can access them at the push of a button. [00:30:40] Like push the button, go life.
There’s
Karen: a button at the bottom, it says, plus that means you’re adding to somebody’s life. [00:30:45] Yeah,
Rory: I love that.
Karen: But you’re so busy thinking you’re attractive. You know what’s [00:30:50] attractive about you, the anointing on your life and the way you share your [00:30:55] message. That’s what’s attractive.
Rory: So. Why did you join [00:31:00] Brand Builders Group?
Like, how did you, like, how did you find us? Where were you? Because like you, [00:31:05] you’re, you are crushing it and, uh, I mean, you got way more followers than I do. Like you, [00:31:10] you’re, you’re, you’re, you’re, you’re living this purpose. Yeah. You’re helping people. You’re making [00:31:15] money. What was like, how did you even.
Karen: Hear about us.
Yeah. Shout out to Omar l [00:31:20] Tari.
Rory: Oh yeah.
Karen: Uh, he’s amazing. And he is amazing. I had downloaded on my Android, um, [00:31:25] a video. Then you can watch it on the, on the plane. And I watched your video and I thought. [00:31:30] This is who I’m supposed to work with. I don’t know this guy, but this is who I’m supposed to work with.
And, uh, I [00:31:35] got on a call and I joined and it’s just been like a perfect puzzle piece. [00:31:40] And it was exactly the, um, masterclass and information. But the other thing is [00:31:45] you hold us to a high accountability. This is not some cheerleading group. We’re not some fun [00:31:50] club. And it’s about you want us to get to work and, um.
I love the [00:31:55] accountability that comes with having my monthly strategist, um, because we don’t know if we [00:32:00] get tomorrow. You need to put your head down and get to work. And this was the first [00:32:05] group that I’d ever been a part of and I’ve been a part of amazing groups and masterminds and phenomenal [00:32:10] thought leaders and influencers and negotiators and business people.
But this was the first [00:32:15] time that I was like, you need to be big, be grown up and finish what you [00:32:20] said you were gonna do.
Rory: You know, I, as you’re talking, it is occurring to [00:32:25] me that I think a lot of programs are structured towards, [00:32:30] like, how do you make money fast or how do you grow fast?
Karen: Yeah.
Rory: And I think you and I [00:32:35] share a similar orientation that it’s not about that it’s going.[00:32:40]
The clock is ticking on the people who need help and they need help right now. Like I’m [00:32:45] driven by that same urgency. Mm-hmm. Like the urgency is not like, how do we make money today? It [00:32:50] like, it’s going like, there’s somebody out there and I don’t know how long I’m gonna be [00:32:55] here, and they need help right now.
Karen: Right.
Rory: And every moment that passes that I am not [00:33:00] getting in front of them and helping them. It’s like I, I feel like I’m, I feel like I’m [00:33:05] underutilizing my life. Like I’m, I’m literally. Abandoning y you [00:33:10] know, my anointing. Yeah. I’m, I’m not, and and I we do share that.
Karen: [00:33:15] Yeah.
Rory: And
Karen: I remember
Rory: have that.
Karen: Yeah. And we started the book process, um, and, you know, [00:33:20] amazing team at Mission-Driven Press.
And, um, we had, um, some. Pieces that [00:33:25] I needed to finish. And, um, somebody said we could push it back another 60 days and I said, we [00:33:30] cannot push it back another 60 days. Whoever is supposed to receive this amazing love [00:33:35] story that I wrote them, this amazing testament, they need to have it right now.
Rory: Look at this thing, the epic [00:33:40] IEP, a powerful playbook for parents, educators, [00:33:45] and advocates navigating the special education process.
This is [00:33:50] so clear. So specific. Um, you [00:33:55] know, you know, one of our big philosophies is the moment you become clear on who you’re serving, like [00:34:00] every other downstream decision becomes clear. And, and I’m just, I’m amazed because it’s just like, [00:34:05] this is just, I mean, I know there’s 8 million, you said 8 million kids in the us
Karen: just in the US
Rory: alone.
Now you [00:34:10] have a big international audience, but like thousands of people are pre-ordering this book. Yes. [00:34:15] And it’s, it’s like. There’s not a lot of books on the, I mean, there’s not, not a lot of [00:34:20] books on the subject. There’s,
Karen: there’s actually none. So there’s two kinds of books in this space, which I [00:34:25] love.
There’s law books and evaluation books and protocols and rah, rah, rah, that are hundreds [00:34:30] of pages long. And then there are books about the parent versus the school. There are not [00:34:35] two sides of this table. There is one side, there’s a child with exceptionalities [00:34:40] that need some services at school to be an amazing, ridiculously amazing adult.[00:34:45]
We can do that when we do, when we write an epic IEP.
Rory: Yeah. That’s the other thing. I mean that, that, [00:34:50] that phrase that you say, you got it on the cover here. This is so cool. So hiding behind the, hiding behind the cover. [00:34:55] When we get it right for the child, we get it right for everyone. That is the other thing [00:35:00] about just the service orientation of this.
Yes. To go like. [00:35:05] Stop being afraid of what people are gonna say about you. Stop [00:35:10] being concerned about getting the, the editing. Perfect. Stop. Yes. None of that [00:35:15] has to do with helping the child. None of that has to do with you helping your customer. And [00:35:20] it’s like when you stay focused on serving that audience, it’s like.
[00:35:25] The rest just comes out and there’s an audience for everything. There’s bodies for
Karen: everything. There’s audience for everything. I remember when I first [00:35:30] started with brand builders and my strategist, who’s ridiculously amazing, Casey Doddle, and he said, [00:35:35] I love you, but. Your website? How do people find you?
I’m like, I don’t know. [00:35:40] I don’t know. I didn’t have a great website. I didn’t have a great message. I didn’t have a landing page. I didn’t have a [00:35:45] funnel. I don’t know what those things are. Um, I had a back comb and some hairspray, but when you have a [00:35:50] passionate mission. That you are being authentic. People will find you, they will [00:35:55] search you out.
And how selfish to take your, your message to the grave. [00:36:00]
Rory: All right, I have two last questions. Well, three. Okay, so, so one, I wanna talk about [00:36:05] your expertise for just a second. If there happens to be somebody listening who. [00:36:10] Is involved in a school or a family or a situation where there is [00:36:15] a child with disabilities and they’re living through that right now.
What is the kind of the one biggest [00:36:20] encouragement that you would have that you go, you just need to know this, like as you’re [00:36:25] stepping in. You know, you’ve now lived this personally. You’ve [00:36:30] walked through it with other parents, you helped other schools advocates, like,
Karen: yeah.
Rory: What does that [00:36:35] person need to know if they’re sort of in that moment that you were, when you first kind of got the news?
Karen: [00:36:40] Yeah, you are. You’re doing fine. You’re doing a great job. God placed this child in front of you, [00:36:45] in your class, God placed this child, um, that you’re the principal of this child and God. [00:36:50] Place this child in your home to raise and stop beating yourself up. Kids [00:36:55] don’t come with instruction books. If they did, I left all three of mine at the hospital.
You know, [00:37:00] parents of a child with a disability have an 88% chance of getting divorced.
Rory: Oh man.
Karen: And so [00:37:05] the great thing about this thing called Online Connection and you know, um, [00:37:10] reach, is that now we have a community for families with disabilities that had no community. If you and I [00:37:15] have a child and something goes wrong with a tennis coach, we are down there at the field house.
People with a [00:37:20] child with a disability, they can’t leave, they can’t go somewhere. And now we have this community [00:37:25] to resource and equip each other and let them know. Mama, you’re doing a great job, grandma. You’re doing [00:37:30] a phenomenal job. New teacher. Thank you so much for serving kids at the highest level.
Rory: [00:37:35] Where do you want people to go to get a copy of the Epic IEP?
Karen: I want you to go [00:37:40] wherever you get books and get one for you and get one for a friend and get a box of Kleenex. [00:37:45] There’s some emotional stories in there. At the end of every chapter, there’s a checklist for parents and advocates and [00:37:50] educators, because we are all at the table, but we have a different expertise and purview.[00:37:55]
But I say unequivocally, this book is going to change your life.
Rory: All right, so then [00:38:00] my last little question for you is. What would you say to the mission-driven messenger out there? [00:38:05] Who feels the calling but is struggling with the like, [00:38:10] I don’t like social media. I don’t wanna sell to people. I don’t, [00:38:15] I’m not.
Sure. Like I, I don’t know how to write a book. I don’t know. I don’t know what the, all [00:38:20] I know is I have a calling, but I don’t know how to do anything else, and I don’t know how to do anything of what all the rest [00:38:25] of this is. I just have a calling, but I’m struggling to like, get it [00:38:30] out there, whatever that means.
Karen: Make a commitment that you are the six o’clock news. [00:38:35] Just do the news. If you don’t wanna go live, record it on Zoom, record it on something, [00:38:40] but put it out there. You can, you can build the plane while you’re flying it. And [00:38:45] I, I, I, I, I doesn’t sound like it’s about somebody else. It’s about you. This isn’t about [00:38:50] you.
The gift that is inside of you, the messages inside of you was never for you. [00:38:55] It is for somebody else. And, and you just need to make the [00:39:00] commitment and not waiver from that. And I would say respectfully, stop treating this as a [00:39:05] business. That’s the biggest malarkey on the, on the, on the internet. Treat this as your job.[00:39:10]
’cause if you don’t show up at your job, you are fired. If you treat this as a [00:39:15] job and make the commitment and don’t waver waffle or water it down, the reach [00:39:20] that you’ll have and the way that you bless people will be, uh, limitless. [00:39:25]
Rory: Karen, I’m, for whatever it’s worth. I’m so proud of you.
Karen: Thank you.
Rory: Uh, [00:39:30] you, you know, I think you haven’t been in Brandville as that long, right?
Like [00:39:35] six months, 16 months. Yeah. But, but you have this knack for, I’m gonna find a [00:39:40] way over, under, around, through. And like, even in your personal life, I think this journey has really shaped and [00:39:45] cultivated that in you. If you’re just like, I’m just not gonna be stopped. Yeah. Like, I’ll find, I’m gonna [00:39:50] find a way and I love that.
And, and I, I love. [00:39:55] Your orientation towards service Yes.
Karen: Is
Rory: so pure.
Karen: Yeah.
Rory: And I, [00:40:00] I love the sense of urgency that you have. Yes.
Karen: Yes.
Rory: Of the people who need [00:40:05] to, who need your help.
Karen: They need it. Yesterday and, and even when I’m training people [00:40:10] and I have lots of diverse people that I train, I love, love, love them all.
I’m obsessed with [00:40:15] people. I’m sort of the. Cocker spaniel Octopus. If I like you, you’re like, oh, that’s a lot of Karen. And the [00:40:20] first thing that I say in my trainings, and some of them are quite the investment. If you are not here [00:40:25] to serve the IEP committee, please know that that’s fine, but please get a full [00:40:30] refund because I train people that are there to serve the IEP committee.
Rory: [00:40:35] Well my friend, we are encouraged by you. I personally am inspired by you. Go get a copy of the [00:40:40] epic IEP, everybody. And, uh, Karen, thanks for the inspiration and the [00:40:45] insights and uh, keep going friend.
Karen: Thank you [00:40:50] [00:40:55] [00:41:00] dear.