Author: AJ Vaden

WWK Ep 028: The Truth About Building a Paid Speaking Career 

RORY (00:00)
this is a topic that makes me angry.

Is that I think the world of speaking has a lot of predatory vendors. There’s a lot of people selling the dream of become a speaker who have not actually done it. There’s a lot of people who are like, buy my service and I’ll help you get on more stages. They’ve never actually done it. There’s a this this industry, this particular space, for some reason is fraught with people teaching how to do something they’ve never done. And I think it’s because they make a lot of money off of people.

What do you really need to have and do and become to build a professional ⁓ keynote speaking business? All things that we’re gonna talk about on today’s episode, along with

the vast amount of improper information and misappropriated information and misconceptions and miscommunicated information there is out there on this topic. So we’re gonna settle this once and for all. I’m joined by my wife, my best friend, my business partner, and the CEO of Brand Builders Group, AJ Vaden. Welcome to welcome

AJ (01:04)
Well

this is a a teed up episode for you for sure. I think it’d be good to give everyone some recap of your speaking life history and I can start for you since my job as a wife. Why don’t you I will just tell everyone what they need to know about you and

RORY (01:24)
And us. Something we built this together. So,

AJ (01:26)
Yeah, tell them about

it. So Rory’s wanted to be a professional speaker since he was in middle school. He heard a let’s see, let’s actually, this is a good time for you to see how accurate I can get your story. Okay. So in middle school, he heard a speaker. Actually, he helped hire a speaker, and when he found out they got paid, he was like, You get paid to come and talk? How do I do that? Right? Am I good so far?

RORY (01:36)
Yeah, interesting.

So that was close. So when I was in middle school, do you remember the name of the school I went to? Platt middle school. PMS. There it is. PMS. It was I saw a speaker, and then a few years later, I was in student council in high school. You combined two.

AJ (01:52)
Yes, PMS.

being it started in middle school right and that was like a really big dream and passion of his and then ⁓ I think this this is the part that’s just good for everyone to know it’s like this isn’t a new endeavor right and this isn’t also one of those things that’s built overnight right we’re always been wanting to do this and practicing and learning and honing these skills for at this point more than 20 years. Yeah. Yeah your age is starting to show

RORY (02:30)
I know, you were pointing out the gray hairs ⁓ this weekend. You’re like, ooh, there’s a lot of salt.

AJ (02:34)
My point is that it’s this is ⁓ it’s it’s like a ⁓ snowball, right? It it starts with like a dream and an idea, but the more you stick at it and the more you practice and the more you learn and the more you get coaching and the more you do it and the more you do it and the more you do it, the bigger that snowball gets, right? And then it starts building that momentum. And that also requires patience, right? It requires patience. but then

In college, Rory sold door to door and during that process had also really said, like, I want to be a professional speaker and started on the track of ⁓ doing Toastmasters and then post college, right post college, he joined the world championship of public speaking through Toastmasters. ⁓ and so again, if you’re looking for a place to hone your skills, Toastmasters is great because they’re very technical, very tactical in some of those things. And the first year that he did was a young.

Person to ever make it to the world championship of public speaking and made it to the top 10. ⁓ and you were 23?

RORY (03:41)
Yeah.

AJ (03:41)
Twenty two.

I was close. ⁓ then he didn’t win, but he was in the top ten. But I what what people don’t know is the amount of work that went in behind the scenes. And since we were friends at that point That was Yeah, we weren’t dating, but we were friends. It’s like he was like the annoying nerd on the team that was like, Sorry, can’t go out tonight. I have to go speak ⁓ at Denny’s. Like, what are you do speaking at Denny’s? And it’s like and this is the unglamorous part of the speaking story. It’s like it didn’t matter

Who was willing to listen to him? When I say Denny’s, yes, Denny’s restaurant, the restaurant, Denny’s, you heard that right. Speaking to three people sitting in a booth in the back of Denny’s. Why? Because he needed reps. He needed to practice. He was practicing his content. He was honing the skills. It’s like those are the things that people never talk about behind the scenes, right? They talk about the stage time and the glory and the fees and all the other stuff. But it’s like Rory spoke for 300 times that single year. One year. That’s almost once a day for free.

⁓ with no expectation of getting paid, but to hone the craft, to get good at what he was doing, to tighten the message. And for to be in the world championship of public speaking, the speech has to be seven minutes. That’s half of a TED talk, y’all. So it’s like you got to be dialed in. It’s got to be on it. And if you go over, you’re disqualified. So it was like a big deal, right? then he did that again the next year, right? And so it was like two years of just getting speech coaching, watching footage, watching his own footage, hiring coaches.

Like extreme, it was like very intense. ⁓ but he came back the second year and got first runner up, right? Second place, which I still think is pretty awesome. ⁓ you think it’s not as awesome as I do, but for someone in the audience of going like, no, I’ve seen the work behind the scenes. I think that’s what’s really important when we talk about how do you get paid to speak and where I’d really love to start this. And then you started charging, right? But even then, after you were second place in the world.

In the world championship of public speaking, we still spoke for free. Today, 23 years later, you still speak for free for the right audience at the right time, right? It’s different. ⁓ but one of the things that I would want to encourage as we kick this off is one of the best and fastest ways for you to become a highly paid professional speaker is to be the best speaker.

Right? You have to be really good at the content. You have to be amazing on stage. Because if you convince someone to give you money and you get on stage and you’re not good, it’s the last time. Right?

Like you don’t have footage, you don’t have assets, you don’t have testimonials, and you don’t have anyone advocating for you. So, and again, the reason that you sc go and speak for free is yes, it’s awareness, yes, it’s marketing, yes, you’re making contacts, but what it really does for you is it hones your craft. And it’s like if I’m gonna spend $10,000 or $20,000 to bring a person in to speak to our community, it’s like you better believe they better be good. They better be good on stage. I’m putting you in front of my people. And I think that’s what people don’t often talk about. They’re like, when do I start charging fees? Like when you’re dang good.

When you’ve done it so many times that people are like, you’re amazing. This is incredible. ⁓ then you do it. And it’s like it’s don’t rush the process. Be really, really, really good at your craft. And that’s why I think this is the perfect perfect episode, not just because of the marketing, but because you’re an actually very good speaker. ⁓ There’s your warm-up. There’s your intro. How’s that?

RORY (07:06)
Thanks, babe. That’s great.

Thanks. That was accurate. And thank you. ⁓ I’m excited to talk about this because I this this is a topic that makes me angry.

Is that I think the world of speaking has a lot of predatory vendors. There’s a lot of people selling the dream of become a speaker who have not actually done it. There’s a lot of people who are like, buy my service and I’ll help you get on more stages. They’ve never actually done it. There’s a this this industry, this particular space, for some reason is fraught with people teaching how to do something they’ve never done. And I think it’s because they make a lot of money off of people. So I’ve

think understanding the reps and and and what’s gone on behind the scenes and you know you left out a big part of that which is you started a speakers bureau in our first business and you recruited agents, you built up a team of people, and I was sort of like your lead product. So you guys were really building the machine sort of behind getting me out there and we’re working together, right? I’m supposed to bring back leads and and we worked at, but ⁓ yeah, so I think how do we get, how do you get your first

gig. What do you need to know about the world of paid speaking? What do you ⁓ what are the misconceptions that are out there? ⁓ the the first thing I wanna talk about is free speaking. Yep. Because there are ⁓

The fastest way to get clients in anything is to do it for free and you you go and people sample you, right? We use the phrase around our brand builders group community all the time, chicken on a stick. Because when you go to Whole Foods or you go to Costco, they give you like the chicken on a stick sample. And it’s like you have to go out there and people have to see you speak. That’s the number one reason you get hired to speak is cause someone has seen you speak and people say, Well, I I’m trying how do I get people to see me speak if no one will hire me to speak and it’s you go speak for free. And otherwise

AJ (09:03)
Even at Denny’s. It’s like anywhere. But it’s like again, like tactically speaking, associations, local groups, chambers of commerce, it’s like

RORY (09:14)
Why are associations so good? Let’s talk about that that as a potential place to go speak for free. Let’s go through a list of all the reasons speaking at associations are good.

AJ (09:25)
I think

associations are great because they have both. And one of the reasons that associations are great is because they have local chapters, state chapters, and then a national meeting. And so that’s really helpful. It’s like all in this one association, you could try to get the local chapter. Then if that goes well, you can get a state chapter. Then you go to the other state chapters and the other local chapters. So associations are great because they’re in every state.

So all you’re thinking about is like, ⁓ I have more times at bat. Like I’m just trying to go vertical. I’m working deep, not wide. So

RORY (09:57)
You

could do fifty events for one association and you hit all the state chapters.

AJ (10:01)
And

it’s and and they escalate in terms of fee ranges. At the local level, they’re probably not gonna have any budget. And if they have any, it’s a probably a couple of hundred dollars. It’s an honorarium. It’s very small. But then as you go to the state level, they probably have a few thousand dollars. But then as they go to the national level, they have larger, bigger budgets because people are paying to come to those. So it’s it’s nice because it allows you to build relationships within an organization at the local, free or honorarium. Then you get good enough or you get referred, you go to the state level.

And you can work all the states. So it gives you lots of opportunities to go deep in an organization. And that’s why we love associations on how do you actually get your foot in the door? It’s like if I just have all the information of all the, I don’t know, state school board associations, right? It’s like I have at minimum 50 opportunities to just go, I know what you’re looking for, I know what your fees are, and I have at least 50 opportunities, right? Even if you’re really bad.

Like at sales and marketing, if you have 50 opportunities and you can only like get 5% of people to give you a shot, it’s like that’s amazing, right? but it’s good because on a sales perspective, associations are great because they have to, it’s required for them to list their executive committee on their website.

RORY (11:19)
Okay, so first reason that associations are great, you can go deep i in one organization because they have so many chapters multiple fee ranges. Second reason why associations are great

AJ (11:22)
We can go deep.

Multiple fee ranges. Local, state, national. Right.

Their contact information is required to be listed on the website. So you go to any state association or any association and you go to team, about us, executive board, whatever, it’s all in there. But they actually have to share a picture, a name, and an email address.

Bingo. Yes, please. Right. And so they’re very easy and very simple to find. And almost 99% of the time for an association, you’re looking for the executive director. They’re the one who is actually going to make the final decision, the financial decision making. Even if they have a committee, it’s like I just bypass all that. And I’m looking for the executive director. Cause at the end of the day, they’re going to make the final decision and actually write the bill or write the check. Yep.

RORY (12:14)
Third reason why associations are great is because associations exist solely for the purpose of having meetings. What is the value? there’s there’s like 10. Okay, I’ll go, I’ll go. Okay. So they they’ve got

AJ (12:22)
There’s a fourth reset. Well I have another one. Okay. Okay.

RORY (12:31)
What is the value of an association other than people networking and meeting one another? And you go, okay, how do we add value? We have to create content that causes all of these people to show up, i.e., a speaker. So they must have speakers. And oftentimes, ⁓ you know, the there’s the well, so here’s another reason why associations are great. There’s so many associations.

AJ (12:55)
There’s association

for everything.

RORY (12:57)
Everything.

AJ (13:01)
There’s literally

associations for everything.

RORY (13:03)
And a lot of them, you know, a few of them do have big budgets. A lot of them run pretty lean financially. So you’re not competing with Simon Sinek and Brene Brown for that slot. You’re you’re you’re competing against other people who are in the association, who maybe aren’t professional presenters, who maybe haven’t like published a lot of stuff. So they’re gettable, they’re gettable spots. Okay, what’s the next reason associations are great to start?

AJ (13:28)
They’re paid prospecting. Because the beautiful thing about speaking to an association versus a corporation, when you go speak to a corporation, no one else in there is likely to hire you again. They just hired you to speak to everyone, right? These are all frontline employees, they’re leaders of the same organization. They all work for the same company and you’ve already

RORY (13:44)
All work for the same company.

AJ (13:48)
Spoke. You’ve already gotten the spot. You’re already doing it. Now they may hire you again for other reasons, but the point being there’s not a lot of spin-off at corporate events. Associations, everyone else is a prospect. Because the beautiful thing about associations is everyone is coming in from other companies, other organizations. It’s literally the perfect. And that’s why we’ve always had an affinity for them. And we’d be even willing to go, hey, like for the right one, like we’ll do some sort of an agreement of some sort of lesson fees.

By negotiating for other things. We don’t discount, but there could be some sort of exchange of, hey, we’ll reduce our fee by this much because you’re also going to provide me $5,000 worth of film footage or X, Y, and Z. And that’s why it’s like, hey, even if the association itself couldn’t pay the full fee, you’re literally in front of.

dozens, if not hundreds, of other organizations and decision makers that are you’re just it’s a tryout. It’s a paid tryout to get spin off. But that’s why being good on stage is so important. Because if you’re not good on stage and you get that opportunity, it just falls flat. And you’re like, well, associations don’t work. And I’m like, no, associations work. Right? These work. These provide spinoff. It’s how good were you on stage? And that’s where the honing the craft has to come first. But there’s many reasons why associations are a great

place to start. One, they’re easy, low-hanging fruit for you to get your foot in the door when you’re when you’ve never spoken before at the local level. And then you work that network and then you get referred to the state level. And that’s the other thing is like again, these are all they exist for the point of having meetings. And so they don’t have just one speaker. They have multiple speakers. They’re gonna have mainstage speakers and they’re gonna have breakout speakers. And so if you don’t get the main stage spot, take a breakout spot.

so there’s just lots of benefits of going after associations because you get so many times that bat. You can work deep in an organization. All of the decision maker contact information is found online and it’s a paid tryout to get more business. It’s a great place to start no matter where you’re at. Never done it before ever, first time, great, local level, all the way to doing the national stages where you can get lots of spin-off.

RORY (16:00)
All right.

So here’s one of the questions. So Brendan Burchard, Tony Robbins, Tom Hopkins, Brian Tracy, Zig Ziggler, many of the legends of this industry, and then also, including us, have made money speaking at a completely different type of event, which is invisible to most people in the market. This is something known as the seminar model. And ⁓ can you just walk us through what is the difference between?

Between like a a speaking engagement and a seminar, and how do you make money with seminars and like let’s talk a little bit about that in terms of a starting point for people to get paid to speak, but in a way that might be different than what they think.

AJ (16:44)
Yeah, I think again, when you’re a highly paid professional speaker, that’s you’re getting booked by other people. You’re going to someone else’s audience and you’re getting paid to come onto their stages and to be a part of their agenda. In the seminar model, you’re speaking to your audience, right? You’re hosting the event, you are the speaker, you bring the audience to you. And I think those are just two very different models.

RORY (17:10)
Yeah. And I think it you would say in a way you could say there is a pro paid keynote speaking as like you’re speaking to a private audience, right? Of a company as an example. And then seminars are often referred to as like public seminars, where there are all different just people that are in coming as individuals, and you’re either selling a ticket or ⁓ letting them come for free, or it might be some moderate ticket. And then typically the way that you make money on the public seminars is by selling something from

stage or making an offer to the people that are there. And that is, a lot of people don’t know, that is literally the first dollars that I ever made from speaking was I was hosting a free training, actually on humor training, believe it or not. And I let people come to a free one-hour training. I was teaching on the psychology of laughter. And then I sold a ticket to come to like a one-day event with me on where I would teach like the full system. ⁓ That’s also how AJ and I started first business

business together. So walk them through what our model was ⁓ when we first met and and started as business partners.

AJ (18:16)
Yeah, so I think again you have to look at and I I say this to people all the time, you have to redefine what is a speaking engagement, what is an event, right? You can host your own event, you can stick something on Eventbrite, put $200 behind it, and I bet you would have a small event of roughly 20 to 30 people show up in your local market. That’s an event. That’s you speaking in front of people. It’s just kind of have to have a back end offer. ⁓ the challenge with a lot of professional speakers is they don’t have a back end offer. They’re a speaker. That’s what

They do. So that’s the difference between are you on the path of becoming a highly paid professional speaker where that’s what you do, versus are you speaking as prospecting? And those are almost two different career paths for the professional speaker. Are you speaking as a way to generate business for your business or is speaking your business? And those are two different things.

RORY (19:08)
They

are. And and I would really argue that ⁓ most many of the people who make it as a true paid professional speaker, a lot of them survive financially long enough because they do both. They have their own events. They’re doing public seminars, selling their own tickets to their own events, or selling something at their events, and that’s where they make enough money to stay in this industry long enough to where they get known and they get enough spin-off and they build enough brand equity and reputation to where people start hiring them.

To come into the events. That’s not always the case, but a lot of I mean, you you know, some of the legends I mentioned, Tony Robbins, Zig Ziggler, Brian Tracy, Tom Hopkins, Jim Roman, like all of them did that. We did that. ⁓ Mark Sanborn, Ed Tate, these would be people more modern day who have had great professional speaking careers. They were doing both. And

That’s like you’re paying your own bills. You’re kind of like hunting the rabbits while you or you’re hunt you’re you’re shooting the rabbits. You’re hunting the elephants and shooting the rabbits along the way. The elephants are like the paid professional speaking, but then the rabbits are like your own seminars, even they can be small.

AJ (20:15)
So, as what Rory said is, you know, one of the things that we did when we started our first business in this, you know, what what I would call a micro seminar business is we would reach out because we were selling sales training. We were sales speakers selling sales training, and we would call sales teams. Again, somewhat easy to find with a little bit of research online. And it’s even easier. No, yeah. These ⁓ we’re talking about a Wells Fargo home mortgage sales team where the average office has somewhere between eight.

RORY (20:37)
Audio.

AJ (20:45)
To 10 loan officers. I would call their sales manager. Why? Because they have a meeting every week, right? So I’m looking for meetings. My mind is always going who has meetings? Who has meetings? Everyone does, especially sales teams. ⁓ Almost every company has an annual meeting, doesn’t matter what kind of company you are, or quarterly meetings. Like we have a semi annual required all hands on deck in person meeting. It’s like companies have meetings. It doesn’t have to be the big grandiose thousand person company with you know fire on the

stage and smoke machines like we’re talking about just normal meetings and that’s another way of going like hey you have a sales meeting i’d love to come in and offer a one hour free sales training why sales managers don’t have to plan the agenda that’s great for them so you got to think of like one where are meetings they’re everywhere you do it what it’s like your reticular activator will kick in the moment that you go who has meetings and then you realize my gosh there’s meetings everywhere everyone has meetings everyone’s in a meeting

Meetings are happening all the time all around me. You just have to gear your mind towards, well, then why would someone have me into their meeting? What can you do for the person who’s running the meeting? Can you save them having to plan for an agenda? Can you offer them something of value for their team? So that’s what we said. Hey, you don’t have to worry about planning the agenda. I’ll work with you. I’ll let you customize it. I’ll come in. I’ll provide a dynamic one-hour value-ridden sales presentation. You don’t have to pay for it. No problem. My only ask is at the end, you let me tell

about a big event that we have coming up and if they want to come they can buy a ticket. No skin off your back. So that’s that’s another version. I think the the goal of all of this is to reorient your mind around what is a speaking engagement. And a speaking engagement is anywhere you can speak. The end.

y’all, I was telling someone the story this the other day about one of the speaking engagements that I had that was most surprising to me and what really reframed my mind of what is a speaking engagement. We live here in Nashville, Tennessee, and I had just been networking and talk a lot about you know what we were doing. This is in our former business, and a law firm here in town, actually, our attorney was like, Hey, do you ever speak for law firms? And I was like, I most certainly can. I’ll figure it out. What do you need? And

They’re like, well, we are really looking for LinkedIn sales training. I was like, got you. Own this. Got it. I didn’t even have to talk to a person. They booked me through an email. It was $7,500. This was years, this was years ago. $7,500. So I show up literally with a full PowerPoint deck, full dress to the nines, ready to go. And they lead me to this small conference room. And I was like, this must be the green room.

It was not the green room. It was the room. And I’m like, hmm. Who am I speaking to today? One junior associate. Single audience member. $7,500 for that speaking engagement. And I was like, ⁓ I need to rethink about what is a speaking engagement.

RORY (23:41)
One person audience.

AJ (23:50)
It is any time that you are speaking to an audience. And in this particular case, at that time, that was my full fee. I didn’t even talk to them. I was like, this is the easiest sale of all time. Then I get there. It was one person.

And it’s like reframe how you consider speaking engagements. Reframe of just turning on your reticular activator to look for meetings. That’s the only thing I was talking about. Is I speak about this for people with meetings. and it will it will revolutionize your ability to get booked as a speaker by simply redefining how you think about being on stages and how you think about audiences. And that is how I built my own speaking career and was like, I don’t care if it was one person there or if there was a

thousand people there and engagement is an engagement, same money.

RORY (24:36)
I love that. There’s three things that I want to add for speakers that will accelerate your career. So, number one, you want to realize that the biggest marketing asset you have is your speech itself. Okay. So AJ’s been talking about that. The second thing that’s connected to that is that the biggest barrier to you getting your number one marketing asset out there is the fee. If you take the fee away, you get your marketing asset pushed forward. So anytime you need more speaking engagement,

You lower the fee to open up the door to being in front of more people, and then the speech itself drives more leads. The third thing I want to share with you is to go, if you can learn to sell at the back of the room.

Or just capture free calls, then you have created your own speaking career. That is the skill that unlocks the flywheel is going, I’m gonna go speak for free or low fee and offer people a free call with me and ⁓ andor sell something in the back of the room, which takes a lot more skill. But if you can learn that one skill, then it can change everything for you. And as you can tell, these are things that we’ve spent our life teaching people how to do, doing ourselves.

If you want to build your speaking career, go to freebrandcall.com forward slash podcast and request a call with our team and we can talk to you more about this. ⁓ all right, community question.

AJ (26:01)
Yes. I was gonna say before I go to the community question, I just wanted to share one other quick thing. ⁓ in this in this spirit of redefining ⁓ what a speaking engagement is and where should you speak, I just wanted to share another quick personal story that actually happened here recently. And although the dates didn’t work out, I would have said yes to this. And I just I want to constantly just reiterate to everyone who is listening, ⁓ because this is really important. Like if you really want to be a speaker or you wanna speak to Jen.

You have to look at every single opportunity in front of other human beings as something that you would just highly consider. So I have a really close girlfriend. We went to college. My college best friend, she is the principal of a pretty big school here in town. And she had reached out to me a couple of weeks ago and said, Hey, would you be our guest of honor at our middle school career day? And I like some people may go,

No, I don’t have time to do that. And if the date had worked, unfortunately it didn’t, let me tell you why I would have said yes to this. I would have said, one, are you inviting parents? Because if parents are there, I’m in. I’m in. Now, unfortunately, the date didn’t work out. So ⁓ if she’s listening to this, like she already knows the date didn’t work. But number one, it’s like our parents coming.

Right. So some might go like, I don’t have time to go speak to a middle school career day. And it’s like, well, one, I do it one, just because she’s my friend, right? And I, you know, you build those relationships before you ever need them. Two, it’s our parents coming. Three, our administrators there. Right? Because why?

There are school board associations, there are vice principal associations, there are principal associations. So going and being present at that was not just the hour to be the guest of honor talking about being a female business owner in Nashville, Tennessee. It was are parents there.

Our administrators there. And you yourself, my friend, are a principal. Can you introduce me to this Tennessee State Principals Association? What about your vice principal? Can they introduce me to the Tennessee Vice Principals Association? Because I know associations and I know all three of those exist and are in that audience. Reframe how you think about speaking and engagements and what you say yes to, even if it was a middle school career day.

So that was just a recent thing again. It’s a reframe of where are humans gathered together in one place. They’re everywhere. Yeah. They’re everywhere.

RORY (28:23)
If you think about speaking as paid prospecting, it changes everything. Or even just prospecting in general, it changes it changes everything.

AJ (28:31)
It’s a reframe. And all you got to do is reframe who has meetings, where are meetings, and that will literally change how often you hear about them and notice them where maybe you didn’t before. Okay. Now we’re already mentioned we’re moving into our community segment where somebody from our BBG community, that’s brand builders group, gets to propose a question that they would like to have answered on the show. And then all of the other other members upvote what question is most applicable and timely for where we’re at today. And that is

What we’re gonna do right now. So let me read you the question. This is from Marcus. And here is his question. I’ve been speaking for free at local events. Good for you. For about a year and a half. And I feel like I’m ready to start charging. But every time I bring up a fee, the conversation goes cold. How do I transition from free speaker to paid speaker without burning relationships I’ve worked so hard to build?

Great question.

RORY (29:31)
Mm.

Yeah. So the the number one thing that you need to do to move from free speaking to paid speaking is generate inbound demand, right? Anytime you’re making outbound demand, it’s a little bit harder to sell your value and charge for something. So when people are coming to you and asking, that’s a different story. And how do you get people coming to ask? You’re speaking for free or you know, discounted fees and you’re generating spin-off. So when people see you, you can automatically in that initial conversation let them

know, hey, ⁓ is there a budget that you have for this event? Once you share with me your budget, I’ll be glad to share send over my fee schedule and we can talk about whether or not we can make this work. But I think just realize that when leads are coming in, you are in a much better position to sort of establish yourself with a f with a fee. So those are a couple thoughts that I’ve got right off the bat. What do you what do you think?

AJ (30:24)
So I think this

is ⁓ really important ⁓ for everyone to realize is that you always have a fee. You don’t always charge it. Okay, you always have a fee. And I think a lot of people get confused, maybe when we talk about, hey, go speak for free, ⁓ as if you didn’t have a fee. No, you have a fee. You’re just not going to charge it when you’re first starting out. And I think that’s the first thing. This is around positioning. So even with this career day, right? I would have said, hey, my normal speaking fee is this.

I’m guessing you guys don’t have the budget for that sort of thing for a career day. Right? Well, friend, let me tell you why I’m not gonna charge that fee.

Right. And so I think one is setting the pace, even when you’re willing to do it for free, even when you’re first starting out, even if it’s at the back of a Denny’s, even if it’s a middle school career day, even if it’s at a local chapter, they need to understand from the get-go, and it’s not too late to do this, just start doing it now, that even though you’re not charging it, you have a fee. It’s amazing how many people don’t realize that people do this for a living. They just think it’s like.

Charity. They think it’s a a hobby. And it’s like, no, you have to be the one to say, here’s my fee. Here’s my program description. And because it’s local, or because of this, this, or this, I’m willing to waive my fee for this, this, and this. Because I am trying to break into this association because you’re going to put me in front of other business owners, because you’re willing to give me a testimonial, because you are willing to give me referrals, because you are willing to provide me with footage. So I

always have a list of concessions, right? I always have a fee. And then I always have a list of concessions of when, where, and why I would reduce or eliminate the fee altogether because I don’t have to get on an airplane and it’s local. Because I have X, Y, Z ties to this organization, because I’m trying to break into this. But the point is is you have to let people know even when you speak for free, you have a fee.

And I bet that’s why you’re getting a little bit of resistance right now is well, whoa, whoa, whoa, you’ve been doing this for free the whole time. Now all of a sudden you’re charging. Well, one, that’s how business works, right? Supply and demand. But two, it’s also because you’ve likely never shared that you had a fee to begin with.

Right. And so that’s where making the transition from free to or from free to fee gets a little challenging, is it feels like, well, you were doing it for this and now it’s this. Well, I I if if I had known that, I would have never done it. And it’s like, well, let’s start with the very beginning, which is I always have had a fee. I just didn’t charge you for it because of X, Y, and Z. So you always have a fee, and then you need a list of concessions that would reduce or eliminate the fee altogether. And that is

an easier, more simplistic way to go from free to fee.

RORY (33:17)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah. The other thing is to go, like we’ve said, if you can learn to generate leads from your speaking engagements, you only start taking free engagements that are in front of your perfect prospects and you pay yourself, right? You pay yourself from the business that you generate out of that. So there’s lots of ways to get there. ⁓ one other big question or one other tip here on getting paid to speak. When if you have inbound inquiries, one of the first things you should say is, What is your budget for speaking engagements? You also can ask.

who did you hire last year? ⁓ because then you can get a you can get a sense of, you know, do they understand? Do they have a budget for this? Is this a part of their, you know, their normal line item? And you kind of work your way up from there. So there you have it. Anything else that you want to do to say to to wrap up this this conversation on paid speaking engagements and how to get started and where to go?

AJ (34:08)
Think the last

thing I would just say is like the more you speak, the more you get to speak. ⁓ and that’s true for most things. The more you do it, the better you get, the more people realize you do this, ⁓ the more referrals you get, the more the more awareness that you get is like the more you speak, the more you speak. And so be willing to speak for free, but always have a fee. I think that’s really important. But also, if you’re gonna go speak for free, then you need to put on your sales and marketing hat while you’re there. You’re not there to show up 10 minutes before, go on stage and leave. What’s the point of doing that? You need to

To be there before. You need to network, right? You need to be there after. You need to meet people. You need to have a good, clear call to action from stage, at least getting people’s email addresses. And that’s why we say there is a strategy behind everything that you do. you got to build relationships with a meeting planner. Who else could they refer you to? It’s like when and if you’re willing to do it. Yes, it’s for practice, but there’s also a strategy behind it of relationship building, marketing awareness, email capture, ⁓ networking on site. There’s so many.

many things that go into that. It’s never just a one and done. It should never, let me be, let me rephrase that. It should never be a one and done. You get there early, you stay there late. You’re there to generate business. So you got to go there with sales hat on.

RORY (35:21)
Yeah. If you need encouragement, accountability, support to help you do those things, go to freebrandcall.com forward slash podcast. We’ll share with you exactly how we do that for people. And whether you do that or not, please come back and stay tuned in for the next edition of the wealthy and well-known podcast. We’re glad you’re here. Go find someone to serve. We’ll see you next time.

AJ (35:41)
that was some pretty good information today. Yeah.

RORY (35:44)
I mean, we know something about this. So subscribe.

WWK Ep 027: Small Audience, Big Money: How to Monetize Without Millions of Followers

RORY (00:00)
here’s something that I’ve been changing my mind on lately, which is the value of consistency in terms of your posting. if you’re trying to build a large following and you’re trying to be an online marketer and you’re trying to really grow that aspect of your business, consistency is really key. It’s really important. If you’re a small, small,

Business, and if you are sort of a micro influencer who’s gonna make a lot of money from a small audience.

I actually don’t know that you should be spending all your time cranking content consistently. And the reason why is because the algorithms are no longer just rewarding you for cranking out a whole bunch of content.

AJ (00:42)
In a world where everyone thinks that bigger is better, today we’re gonna talk about the power of a small audience. And I think this is a good reminder for all of us, including me. So maybe today is just for me that bigger isn’t always better. And that a small audience can actually generate just as much, if not more, revenue than a big audience. Would you believe that a smaller audience can actually be

More powerful in generating revenue from your business than a huge audience. And would you believe that some of the highest paid experts in the world actually have an embarrassingly small audience? And so that’s what we’re gonna talk about today is how do you monetize a small audience and that it’s never too late to get started, and that it’s most powerful to serve the audience that’s right in front of you. And you can do that whether you have 10 followers or 10 million followers. So, Rory.

Here’s my first question of today. All right. All right. If you were to narrow it down to some of the best monetization models.

That would help someone go, I don’t have a big audience. Actually, I have a relatively small audience. We’ll say below 5,000. Below 5,000 followers online. We’ll say email us and all of that. But if you have you have a small audience, what are some of the best monetization models that you can use to actually generate revenue and create a business with a small audience?

RORY (02:09)
Yeah, so it comes down to one word, I would say really is like intimacy or access. When you have a small audience, what people are gonna pay you for is more access. Right. When you have a big audience, they they they don’t get close to you. But when you have a small audience, you can serve people in a very close way and they will pay money for that access. So I think, you know, my brain immediately goes to coaching and consulting as the actual business model to.

Make a lot of money from a small audience. Why? Because those are the most intimate environments from a business model where you go, I’m really getting to know people. I’m I’m working closely with them and their team. I’m probably walking with them over some period of time. And so they get access to me. And then also to the extent that I can do more done-for-you services, that is going to be the primary, those are the primary levers that I’m pulling: access and execution.

To go, hey, we we can get a lot of money from a very small audience. Even one customer, you know, two customers, five customers, ⁓ you know, you can make a lot of money serving people. And when we say you make a lot of money serving people in a deep way, that’s what we mean. You’re up close with them and you’re walking, we’re walking with them to the point of executing exactly what you have to share.

AJ (03:34)
So for clarity’s sake, can we just define what is coaching versus consulting?

RORY (03:39)
Yeah,

that’s a great question. ⁓ I want to hear your answer to this too. Okay, so basically

the the the simplest delineation in my mind between coaching and consulting is I think of coaching as B2C business to consumer. I’m working with an individual person. ⁓ I think of consulting as you know B2B business to business. I’m working with a group of people or a company. And even if I’m I can be coaching as a subset of consulting, but it’s like I’m consulting an organization and as part of that package

I’m coaching individuals. So I think that’s the main delineation that I have, but it’s it’s still they both sit inside the vein of: I have a framework, I have a methodology, I have unique intellectual property, I have a unique method, something we would call your modular content method, and I’m deploying my method.

to an organization or an individual to help them apply that to resolve a problem and achieve a payoff. And it’s just am I doing that at the organizational level or am I doing it at the individual level? That’s it.

AJ (04:47)
Yeah, I’d I’d say my definition’s pretty dang close to that. ⁓ it’s just a a one to one versus a one to many. It’s like when I think about a coaching relationship, it is a one to one relationship. When I think about consulting, it’s what am I institutionalizing that is one to many. ⁓ it’s for the people who are here today, but also for the people who will be there in the future. I’m putting systems and processes in place that allow people to run on a track. ⁓ so it’s more systems and process driven. It’s more

are what I would say corporate.

RORY (05:22)
Give give give us some tangible examples because ⁓ so here’s something that I don’t think not everybody knows about you because you know today you’re the CEO of brand builders group and we do what we do. ⁓ in our former business, among other things, you ran a consulting division that was a multi-seven figure division inside of the whole company, and you were doing a lot of this B2B. What when you say installing systems, giving people a track to run on, taking a methodology and applying it one.

to many. What are examples of the kinds of systems? What are the ways you’re institutionalizing your expertise in an organization at scale that allow you to charge high fees and and more importantly, bring high value worth high fees?

AJ (06:07)
Yeah, I think one of the biggest opportunities for people who want to be consultants or who are consultants and who are maybe even asking this question of like, well, how do I better monetize what I’m doing in my consulting business with a really small audience? And the beautiful thing about consulting is you don’t need a big audience. you couldn’t handle a dozen projects if you wanted to. Like if I had three projects running at the same time, I was like

trying to breathe air through a straw in the middle of a tsunami. Like more than three or four projects. I couldn’t handle more than that. But that has a lot to do with how do you define consulting, right? And it is the institutionalizing of systems and processes. So here’s one tip to ⁓ actually help monetize a consulting business is I started every consulting project with a research phase. And I think a lot of people don’t do that. In fact, I know a lot of people don’t do that because we have hired many a consultant

that never offered that. Or at least we considered hiring them. But I think that’s a really big part of like I was like, I can’t even tell you what you need. I can’t even offer my services to you because I have no idea what you have in place. So if you really want to consider this, what I will sell you where we start everyone was a flat consulting package that was just a research package. Now, this isn’t a research study. This is hands and feet

Hitting the pavement and being like, I’m coming in and I’m secret shopping. Right. I spent three months as a somewhat undercover retail operations person for a client that I cannot name publicly here because I don’t think that would be fair and right, but it’s like I had the uniform.

Right. I was working in the retail stores, ⁓ doing research. That was a part of what I was being paid to do. Why? I needed to go. Did the systems and operations that they had as a company actually make it to deployment in the stores? Were they actually using the scripts? Did leaders actually do what they were taught to do? Right. So it’s one thing to have systems and processes. It’s another thing for your people to actually use them. We know that even internally at our small company. So a research phase is going, hey.

If you really want to see movement and success in your organization, then I first have to assess where you’re at. I can’t help you get to where you want to be if I don’t know where we’re starting from. ⁓ Also, that’s a part of the adoption process. It’s going, I have to be able to culturally align whatever I’m doing to something that’s going to fit in your organization. And that’s why I charge a premium. Everything I’m doing, even though there are systems and processes, I’m going to adapt them. I’m going to mold them. I’m going to customize them to fit within your culture.

Cultural parameters based on something that I think your people would actually do, that they would actually adopt. And I can’t tell you how to do that if I don’t know your people. So I would be reviewing scripts. I’d listen to sales calls. I’d sent in call centers for hours and hours at a time, listening to how people answered the call, had the conversations, ended the call. I would ask them how they documented stuff. They thought I was there often being onboarded as a new employee. So it wasn’t deceptive. I just didn’t share a whole lot. And I was introduced as hey.

She’s here shadowing today. And it’s amazing how many people never asked. What are you shadowing for?

RORY (09:26)
And so you

you would actually companies would actually pay you to basically just go listening. Just listen, read, watch what they’re doing. You’re not actually teaching them anything. You’re not doing anything for them. You’re just learning effectively. You’re learning their organization and how they do what they would do.

AJ (09:33)
What’s happened?

Absolutely. And then at the end, I provide my feedback analysis and recommendations. And at that point, my part of the process could be done. And I was like, you can take this research report. because this is hands-on research of what’s happening at the frontline level, at the mid-level manager, at the executive level. This is what’s being used. This is what’s not being used. Here’s why it’s not being used. Here’s what’s working. And here are my recommendations of what need to be improved. And on a consulting basis, most people

Are going, hey, we’re trying to increase increase top line revenue. ⁓ 99.9% of the time, it was something to do with revenue generation or revenue retention. ⁓ and then I would say, here’s the real problem: there is no consistent sales training. There is no sales training, there are no scripts, there are no processes to follow. You don’t even have regular meetings, there’s no chain of communication, there’s no

No, whatever. The point is, is that is one way for anything that you’re doing as an actual consultant to be implemented and to get real results, is that before you go and deliver, which we often hop to, it’s go, hey, first I have to assess. And it didn’t matter how small the company was. I did this for companies that were as small as twenty or thirty people. And I did this for corporations that had hundreds of thousands of employees.

RORY (11:08)
And to so to tie this back to monetizing, if you have a small audience, right? You can’t provide that level of service to clients and have hundreds of clients to go spend four hours watching their videos, watching their people, going through their website, secret shopping them, reviewing their internal training materials, interviewing their leaders, interviewing their frontline. And you go, that is a massive value add. And it’s exactly what we’re talking about when we say it’s more access to you.

It’s a more intimate experience. And the end of that first project is just telling people what to do. So you learn and assess and then you tell them what to do, but you don’t tell them how to do it. That’s what they hire you for on the ongoing basis. But so that would again a few clients, a big big big

AJ (11:57)
There’s a great ways to a great way to increase monetization if you’re a consultant. And then coaching was always just a part of what we included in the next phase. That’s like part of what you need is you need coaching. Like these people need help. They need support. They need guidance. so I would just say like that is one way to monetize a very small audience because you can only handle a very small amount of people doing that level of intense work. So you don’t need huge audiences for one-on-one coaching or for consulting.

And again, it doesn’t matter the organization size. ⁓ It’s like, you know, you’re paying a premium because you are paying me to do something that is completely custom for you. It’s this isn’t a course. This is like I am in your uniform, in your call center, following your people, going on sales meetings. And so you can charge a premium for that because it’s so custom and it’s so tailored.

RORY (12:50)
Yeah. And it I think when you think about monetizing a small audience, I think about this as like David and Goliath, right? It’s like if you’re Goliath, you’re big. You’ve got a big audience and that gives you certain advantages. But most people who have a big audience monetize it by selling lower price products to a lot of people because they built a big audience by sort of generally applying at a sort more surface level to a lot of people. If you have a small audience, that’s like David, right? You’re more nimble. ⁓ and

You go, I can serve a small number of people, but in a much deeper way, a much more intimate way, and a much more customized way, which I think is a big word that you use there. And people will pay for that premium. They’re not paying you a lot of money because you have a lot of followers. Nobody pays you a lot of money because you have a lot of followers. People pay for a result. They pay for you to solve a problem. They pay for you to be helpful and to be customized and unique to their situation. And that doesn’t have anything to do with how many followers you have.

have and you could actually argue that the smaller the audience you have, the smaller the team you have, the more time you have available to be with clients because there’s less time you’re having to do to like manage your team and your media company and and do all of those things.

AJ (14:03)
Thanks.

So here’s what I would say is if you’re because the question really to go back to this is what are the top monetization models that you can use with someone who has a ⁓ smaller following, under 5,000 people? And we’re saying it’s one-on-one coaching or it’s consulting. Now, I think something that’s really valuable to add on to that if you’re, you know, sit in that coach or consultant category is to go, well, how do I get started in that? Right? Like if what if this is ⁓ a business model that I’m new to? Like, how do I introduce myself as a

coach or consultant. And here’s where I would say that true expertise is your biggest advantage. And this is where I would also say that our what I think is one of our most powerful quotes out of our book, ⁓ which is about the person you serve. And what we say all the time is what, Rory?

RORY (14:51)
You’re most powerfully positioned to serve the person you once were.

AJ (14:55)
Okay, so pause right there. You’re most powerfully positioned to serve the person you once were. This is the fastest way to activate a coaching or a consulting business. I’ll give you a couple of ⁓ nuanced micro examples that are varied just to help you have a little understanding of like what

I don’t know. It’s like I I’ve been in roofing sales for the last 20 years. Like, how would I do that? So we have a client at Brand Builders Group. Who is that person? He was a top 1% in the nation salesman for a nationwide roofing company.

Okay, they went through a merger acquisition, something. And anyways, his office got closed and he found himself ⁓ without a job. he was getting recruited left and right to join all these other roofing companies in his local area in Florida. But he didn’t want to do that. He goes, I actually want to build my personal brand. I want to get out of being an employee for another company. And I I at this point doing this for I think he had been doing 30 years, he goes, I want to build my

personal brand. How do I do that? And I’m like all these companies that are recruiting you to come and be their top performing salesperson, just saying you’re not for hire, but you are available as a consultant.

Right. True expertise, true results was the pathway for him to building his coaching and consulting business. He didn’t even have to go find these people. He just had to take these recruiting calls and turn them into sales calls. So that’s one way, right? So let’s just say you found yourself being laid off or there was a merger and an acquisition or whatever, but you’ve got real expertise and a real reputation in your industry. That’s why building a personal brand, ⁓ even as a corporate employee, even as a frontline

Salesperson for someone else matters a lot because he had a reputation and decades of real results and experience where people started calling. They were blowing him up. And all we talked about is take those recruiting calls and turn them into sales calls. You’re not available for hire, but you are available as a consultant.

RORY (16:59)
And an easy line to say there is to say you’d have to pay me so much money to be an employee, you could not ever afford it, but you can fractionalize that and I can not only d you know help your team, I can install the principles that makes everyone on your team do in exactly what I did. And that’s because you had the results to prove

AJ (17:19)
That’s right. So that’s the first example. The second example is how do you make this transition? So let’s say you are trying to make the transition out of corporate. And one, let me just say this as a caveat. I do not think everyone should leave corporate. I do not think everyone should own own their own business. I do not think everyone should be a coach or consultant. That does not serve everyone really well. I think it is great and amazing for some of us to be nine to five employee jobs. That is like what we were built and suited for. And companies need you. Companies need it. So like let me just say that. Like not everyone should do

RORY (17:48)
It’s

also not as easy as glamorous to be an entrepreneur.

AJ (17:51)
Like first,

I’m not saying everyone should just like bail or threaten their employers. Cause if my team says, ⁓ listen to that podcast, I’m gonna have like a full on like meltdown and be like, delete that podcast, right? That’s not what I’m saying. ⁓ but I do think this is important. ⁓ if and when the time comes where you’re like, hey, like, I do have a calling on my life and I do know I need to go do this other thing. Like a great transition out is to contact your current employer and be like, hey, I’ve got to go do this other thing. Like, I feel called to do it. I can’t be a full time

I’m employee anymore, but would you ever consider retaining me as a consultant?

So that could also be another path to transition. ⁓ not allowed for our team members, of course, because you want to be full-time employees here at VVD, but for other companies, that is a really good transition that I have actually had lots of people at Brand Builder’s Group go, hey, because I was so valuable, because there was so much trust equity in the decades and decades that I had been there, this was a good, healthy transition for me and for them. Instead of leaving the organization, I became a consultant on retainer as I started.

building out this other business and it was a win-win for both entities. That doesn’t work all the time. It does it’s not a good fit for every situation. But one is to turn recruiting calls into sales calls. the second thing is to make your current employer your first client as you’re making this transition out of corporate. So those are two things. The third thing that I

RORY (19:14)
Just on

one thing on that. So and often what happens is the the company’s gonna pay you less money. So one, you had to get great results when you’re there.

You had to kill it. And then what happens is they go, Okay, I can actually pay less money to hire someone else to do your job. You’re gonna train them to do that as a and then and now I’m your customer and you have to take care of me as getting one customer to go off into the into the future. So but that does happen, ⁓ that that that can be a good way where you’re saying it is a win for everybody and sort of like a springboard for somebody.

AJ (19:45)
Yeah,

it’s a it’s a healthy transition path for both parties. because losing top talent is hard for any organization and starting your own business is especially hard for any individual.

RORY (19:55)
But as a consultant, you have to think that way. You go and I’m I’m trying to replace myself. People are paying me a lot of money, but not forever. They’re paying for me to install a system and a process that other people can step into. And that’s what you’re doing. And when you’re not serving a lot of customers, you’re not having to cater to a large audience, then you can do that kind of deep work.

AJ (20:19)
And then the third thing I would just encourage is I think the third way that you could kind of start up in this is really where you’re actually, and I I really do strongly believe this, is that you are a local presence. Like I really do believe that most people’s initial coaching business and initial consulting business comes up with local clients, local prospects, because you are a local presence. That means that you’re a part of different associations and networking groups in the town. You are an active member of your church.

You serve on nonprofit boards, you are a well-known community member. And I think that’s really important in an era where it’s really easy to sit behind a screen all day long. And I just remember this, ⁓ I heard this a long time ago, is like be with people before paper, people before paper, people before paper. and this never rings more true is that when you’re actually trying to start your own thing as a coach or a consultant or even your own business, is that you already have an established community.

community presence. And people are coming out of the woodworks to go, how can I help? Who can I introduce you to? Because you are an established person in that local community. Because I bet most of your first clients will come in your local community.

RORY (21:33)
Mm-hmm. Yep, I agree with that. I mean it’s gonna be referrals, it’s gonna be word of mouth. Th and you know, crush it where you’re at, right? The best way to get your the next thing is to be awesome at your current

AJ (21:44)
Exactly where you’re at.

RORY (21:45)
And

when we say the the best marketing in the world is a changed life is going, you need one customer who has an amazing experience with you who’s gonna introduce you to their people. That’s right. And if that’s not happening, that means they didn’t have an amazing experience, which means you need to go back and work on your product a little bit. So there’s a question ⁓ here, what role does content consistent consistency play in small audience monetization?

we hear a lot of people feeling like they’re po posting into the void. How do you keep going when the numbers don’t feel like they’re reflecting the effort? That’s good. So here’s something that I’ve been changing my mind on lately, which is the value of consistency in terms of your posting. ⁓ if you’re trying to build a large following and you’re trying to be an online marketer and you’re trying to really grow that aspect of your business, consistency is really key. It’s really important. If you’re a small, small,

Business, and if you are sort of a micro influencer who’s gonna make a lot of money from a small audience.

I actually don’t know that you should be spending all your time cranking content consistently. And the reason why is because the algorithms are no longer just rewarding you for cranking out a whole bunch of content. ⁓ And as a small business owner, as a micro influencer, the way that I think most of you are going to make money from social media is not that media is generating leads. It’s that it’s the new website. It’s that when you’re at your local chamber of commerce and someone hears your name.

They’re gonna go look you up on LinkedIn. They’re gonna go look at your Instagram profile before they talk to you or before they agree to a meeting or just in their decision-making process. And what I think matters more is having

A few pieces of really quality content that people see on your feed, they’re not gonna buy from you because you post every day at 9 a.m. But they are gonna buy from you when they look at your last 10 videos and they go, my gosh, all 10 of these videos are killer. I got 10 tips in 10 minutes that blew my mind that were more valuable in their free content and more beautiful and presented well than what I paid my last consultant in their monthly retainer, right?

That’s how I think the future of making money from a small audience connects to social media. And I’m, I think I’m gonna stop encouraging the people with the really micro audiences to just be like, you just gotta keep creating content and create content and create content and post thousands of times a day. I don’t see that, I don’t see that small creators are making a lot of money that way. I think if you wanna build up, be a micro influencer and you get to 10,000 followers, you’re gonna get some brand deals, but that’s not how you’re gonna get rich. And I think the consulting and the coaching, you make a lot of

of money by having a few pieces of really quality content and you make sure every one of your prospects sees them and you you feed it to them in your email nurture sequence like you know send them an email with a link to your best performing YouTube video. I think that’s what it really is about because the algorithm there’s too much noise and the algorithm is just not rewarding volume. ⁓ and AI is, you know, people are produce producing so much garbage.

AJ (24:54)
So

I would ⁓ so I think this is a worthy content topic to go, okay, so posting every day might not be all that fruitful for someone with a small audience, but what’s the frequency that you need to hit at minimum?

RORY (25:08)
You need to not look like you’re a ghost, right? You need to not be like, I posted I posted in 2023 a picture with my cat. That’s not that ain’t it.

AJ (25:16)
Yeah. So but even if it’s good quality content, and I can just tell you, like as somebody who is vetting vendors and employees, like if you haven’t posted something in the last 30 days, I skip over you. Like if I’m going and looking LinkedIn profiles would be a great example. It’s like, because that’s where we do a lot of our business recruiting and or vendor vetting. And it’s like if it’s not a complete profile, i.e., there’s not even a picture, or the last time you posted anything was months ago, I literally I’m like

Like I’m a

RORY (25:47)
They’re an inconsistent person. They look like an inconsistent person.

We were literally texting about this this morning. A vendor we’re evaluating that is one third the cost of other vendors that we’re looking at, but but their their content is very inconsistent and the service they’re selling us doesn’t at all match up with the content that they have posted. And it’s like, yeah, they’re cheap, but it it looks like that’s why they’re cheap, is it it doesn’t match up what we need. And it’s like, ⁓ I don’t know, like we have to we have to discuss this and figure it out. But that’s a great example.

AJ (26:19)
Well, and I would

just say, like, even as an employer who’s recruiting, right? And it’s like the first thing I do, literally, I think this is good for us all to think of like where do personal brands really matter, right? And it’s like the first thing I do before I go through your resume is I go to your LinkedIn profile.

I come back to your resume to verify, but I’m going there to go like, are you engaging? I want to be like, what what did you have to say online? Have you gotten endorsements? It’s amazing how no one has recommendations. And I’m like, huh.

Like, are you not asking for them? Do they post? What are they posting about? What are their interests in? Your resume is the static thing that you fill out and you forget it. It’s a set and forget thing that people are only updating once they’re looking for a job. ⁓ that’s not a

RORY (27:08)
Public. It’s

also not public. So you don’t have the corroboration of

AJ (27:12)
It’s not an

indicator of a good candidate or not, in my opinion, anymore in today’s time. It’s, you know, you update it only when you’re looking for a job. It’s like, it’s not something you keep up to date. It doesn’t give me anything cultural for me to go, like, are you really a values alignment? So I go to your LinkedIn and it’s amazing because we’re in the middle of hiring somebody for our finance team and it’s like

There’s no pictures. There’s incomplete profiles and it’s like their resume looks amazing. And I’m like, you don’t even have a picture. You don’t even have a complete profile. Like I I no. Moving on.

And so again, even in a finance and accounting world, I don’t expect you to be some content creator or ⁓ you know, some finance, you know, influencer. But I’m going like, this is a public facing representation of who you are. And there’s nothing there. There’s no recommendations. There’s no interests. There’s an incomplete profile. There’s not even a picture. And the last last job that’s mentioned is one that you had five years ago. I have a problem with that.

As a business owner in today’s time, when I’m going like, hey, I have to know more than just what it says on a piece of paper that can’t be corroborated.

RORY (28:21)
So one of the things that we’ve been doing recently that’s been awesome is we take members of our actual paying community at Brand Builders Group and they ask us questions and the other members vote up the topics. And those are the questions that we choose to answer here on the show. So this one comes from Trevor. Trevor says, I’m a business consultant with 12 years of corporate experience, and I know I have real value to offer, but

But I only have about 1400 LinkedIn connections and barely any social presence. Everyone I see succeeding online seems to have hundreds of thousands of followers. Is it too late for me to build something real or am I starting from too far behind?

AJ (29:03)
No, it’s not too late. No, you’re not starting too far behind. Remove the word only before 1400 and the perception you have is not accurate. So let’s dissect this question a little bit. Like one, you have 1400 followers on LinkedIn. That’s amazing. You only

Again, it’s like again, this is I think is really important. You’re a business consultant. We just talked about this. Like this whole episode is for you. Trevor, I really I’m gonna figure out who you are and I’m gonna send this episode to you because this is really important. Like you don’t even need 1400 to have more business than you can handle. You are a business consultant. That’s what you do. We just said if you had more than three or four clients, you’d be so inundated you couldn’t breathe. ⁓ so again, it’s it’s reframing what we what we really need to focus on, which is how many clients do I need? How many of my

What new ones am I trying to get this year and reverse engineer that? So one, remove only. You have 1,400 people who have invested into your content. That’s amazing. How can you go better serve those 1,400 people? How can you better outreach to them, but build better relationships with them, give them the content that would generate your next 10 clients? So one, congratulations, you have 14. It’s not only you have 1400 connections on LinkedIn. Amazing. ⁓ Number two, it’s never too late. ⁓

clients in our community who are in their late seventies. Like they’re crushing life. They’re crushing it. It’s never too late. that is something that we tell ourselves when we feel like giving up.

When we look around and we compare our step one to someone else’s step ten thousand and go, everyone else seems to be, you know, doing this or this. And it’s like, one, that’s comparison, and you just can’t compare. Right? ⁓ perhaps they’re not business consultants. Perhaps they need that volume. ⁓ we cannot compare. So I would just encourage put some blinders on when it comes to that, because you cannot compare things that aren’t comparable. It’s like, you know, do I like this Kiwi or do I like

Rice. It’s like they’re not even the same thing, not even in the same category. We cannot compare those two things. and then it’s like, are you starting from too far behind? No, you’re not behind. I don’t know why you think that. Like, who has told you that you were behind? You are not behind. You’re exactly where you should be. You have 1400 LinkedIn connections. You’re a business consultant. You can’t have 1,400 clients. You probably could only have 14 clients. You are not too far behind.

RORY (31:30)
I think a big thing people need to understand in here is that the number of followers that you have is not a demonstration of the level of value you can provide. And in many ways, the larger the audience you have, the more obligated you are to serve them and to be available to like nurture that community, which means the the less available you are to work with any small number of those people in a very deep way. When we hire people to do various services for us personally.

For the business. We don’t look at how many followers does this person have at all. It’s not even in our consideration of do we hire them. We do look at: is it relevant? Is it up to date? And is their content worthwhile? Is it useful? Is it valuable? Are they demonstrating that they are an expert at the thing that we are considering hiring them for? And I just want to ask All of your clients are doing the same thing.

AJ (32:28)
And I want to add two other things to that to what we said because we’re not talking about hiring people. We’re talking about hiring vendors. ⁓ the two number one things that we also vet is were they referred to us?

Did someone else recommend them who has used them and can vouch for them? ⁓ and then two, it’s like, do they have a list of testimonials that prove that they’re really good at the thing they say they can do? Right. And it’s like, one, can I go and validate those testimonials? Are these real humans with a first and last name? Like are they videos? and it’s like I weird, we’re just living in an an era right now where Amanda P says, I’m like, Who’s Amanda P? Like, is she a real person? Like, I I I need to know. I need to see her picture. I wanna know her last name is, I wanna know where she works.

I need to go validate this because that is an like if you weren’t referred to me, it’s like this is how I’m proving that you’re trustworthy. Is I’m basing the experience of someone else who’s hired you. And if it’s just partial human, it’s like I it’s not enough for me. Right? It’s not enough. So I think those two things in addition to everything you said are also really important when we’re looking at these things. It is not follower count though. That’s not even a piece of consideration.

RORY (33:33)
And and and to me, testimonials, what we’re really looking for is sample work. Yeah. We want to see a sample of what you’ve done and a testimonial, depending on what trait you’re in. Like, you know, if you’re a videographer or photographer, I should just be able to see a portfolio. When you’re a consultant, it’s a little bit tougher to see your sample work. And so testimonials is the closest thing to that. But we’re trying to go, can you create the thing that I’m considering hiring you for? Point blank. That is that is the question. But it’s not about how many followers you have. The only

Person who’s concerned about that is you. And that is a fear living in your own head. It’s false evidence appearing real. It’s a figment of your imagination. Do not let you do not let it hold you back. Doesn’t mean you shouldn’t create quality content and demonstrate your expertise, but do not let the number of followers be the reason why you can’t grow your personal brand and turn your reputation into a massive pile of revenue. That’s right. All right.

AJ (34:26)
Preach it.

RORY (34:28)
So, if you have a small audience and you want to make a big amount of money from a small audience, which by the way, arguably we are some of the best in the world at making a lot of money from a smaller audience. We don’t have a huge audience, and much of our audience has only grown here in the last couple of years, really. ⁓ so if you are that person or if you know somebody who has a real expertise and a real passion for helping people and a real mission-driven, ⁓ you know, sort of purpose and stance in life, make sure you share this episode with them and then let them.

know they can request a call with us at freebrandcall.com forward slash podcast and we’ll do the first call for free to understand where they’re at. We’ll show you our entire four phase journey and we’ll create a custom plan for exactly what steps you need to take next, whether you work with us or you don’t.

⁓ and for the rest of you, please ⁓ thank you for tuning in to the podcast. Please rate and review this show wherever you listen or watch. Make sure you hit subscribe, follow, ⁓ and share. And we’ll catch you next time on the wealthy and well-known podcast.

Now, before you go binge watch all the rest of our episodes, we want you to know we’re committed to serving you as an individual in a much deeper way.

AJ (35:43)
And we actually mean that. We don’t have to make these episodes. This is something we want to do to serve the person who’s really listening. And the first way that you can do that is to actually subscribe, to tune in and to learn more on every episode that goes live.

WWK Ep 026: 100,000 Followers or 1,000 Emails? The Truth About What Actually Grows Your Business

WATCH THE INTERVIEW LISTEN TO THE EPISODE BELOW A big following feels impressive, but it does not automatically create trust, leads, or revenue. In this episode of The Wealthy and Well-Known Podcast, Rory and AJ break down one of the most common traps in personal branding: assuming that more followers means more business. They unpack why neither followers nor […]

WWK Ep 025: The Real Secret to Becoming Wealthy & Well-Known

RORY (00:00)
you are the definition of well-known like in your space in your communities and that’s what I want people to see is to go like everybody is modeling after like these people with a bunch of followers but like even the people with a bunch of followers the equity they create is their offline relationships and like

AJ (00:17)
Way to save it, Rory. Just trying to come back here. How have I become so unwell known?

RORY (00:20)
Yes, so tell us.

Yeah, how have you become well-paid without knowing anybody and anybody knowing you?

AJ (00:28)
Wow,

Alright guys, time to talk about some real truth. Most of us have been told and most of us have believed a lie about what fame really is. And we’re gonna share some real…

truth about fame and what really matters when it comes to building your personal brand. See what most of us think is that becoming famous means going viral and having a huge social media following and being known by the wider world. But what we want to do is break it down and talk about micro fame, how to become famous to your audience, how do you become famous in your small niche and why that matters more today than ever before.

All right, Rory, I’m going to kick us off with a question about…

⁓ Please welcome my co-host, the co-founder of Brand Builders Group, my best friend, my husband, New York Times best-selling author, Hall of Fame speaker, Rory Vada.

RORY (01:38)
joking

on another episode that she always always introduce her and she always forgets to introduce me she’s just like alright let’s get into it okay anyways now that that’s Eddie out of the way let’s get into it micro fame strategy love this conversation

AJ (01:53)
And really what I talk about is like how to become famous to your audience. And I think that’s the part about becoming well known that people often just misconstrue. They’re like, this whole personal branding thing, it’s about ego and vanity to popularity contest. And it’s like, no, it’s not. It’s about being known to the audience.

you want to serve, right? So it’s becoming famous in your niche, famous to your audience. And that is important.

Because if you have something that really serves that audience, then you owe it to them to let them know that you exist. Right? So it’s not how do you become like Mr. Pitbull worldwide over there. It’s not being the rock Dwayne Johnson, but it’s how do you become famous in your niche? So let’s talk about that. How do you do that? How do you become well known to the person that you want to be known by?

RORY (02:52)
Yeah, I can tell you a strategy that I’ve never said out loud before about how to develop micro fame and it’s not something that people talk about a lot or expect to hear.

AJ (03:02)
Well,

you’ve been holding out on us.

RORY (03:04)
I’ve never

had this question posed in this way, but I actually, you one of the questions on our sheet here is how do you get podcast invitations when you’re not famous yet? And I kind of consider myself a master of that. Like I have gotten on many of the biggest podcasts in the world and like am so far away from famous or like what most of the other guests are. And that question and the way you tee this up made me think about, huh, how have we really done this? And here’s a strategy that you’ve you’ve never heard before. And I’ve never talked about this.

figure out in any niche there’s like 15 people that really matter a lot. there’s 15, like if you just said who are the 15 people that matter most in my space and then ask yourself how could I be extraordinarily valuable to those 15 people?

And if you actually did that, which is what we have done, right? We figured out these are the people who are very important in our space, very influential. Rather than trying to go viral reaching millions, we said, how can we become extraordinarily valuable to these 15 people?

AJ (04:09)
Influen.

RORY (04:23)
and we did that and they became the gateway to other people. And I think that that strategy is not one that is just unique to us. think that that is how you create micro fame is you figure out who are the most influential people. It’s a small group. And rather than shotgunning to try to go viral and reach the whole world, there’s a small number of people in any sort of niche or industry or vertical.

that really are the people who matter. And if you can figure out how to be extraordinarily valuable to them, then you’ll ride in their wake and they will take you everywhere you want to go.

AJ (05:00)
So I love that and I think that is it’s like, how can you provide use resources? How can you be of service to someone else? Like what have you learned? What have you gained? What do you have that you can give to someone else to build a relationship, right? So give us some ideas. Like for someone who’s out there going, love that, I could do that. How do I do that? What would you say?

RORY (05:24)
Let’s talk about how not to do it. Okay, here’s what most people do is they go, these are the 15 people that are that matter in my space. And they think about how could I get on their show? How could I get on their stage? How could I get they think about what they could get? That’s the wrong question. The whole mindset has to be what can I give? How can I be useful? Is it’s it’s redirecting your reticular activating system in the opposite of how everybody else

AJ (05:38)
not the give.

No expectations

of anything in return, no monetary compensation. It’s just how can I be of use?

RORY (05:57)
right. Yeah. we actually in inside of our ⁓ pressure free persuasion course, we we teach that sales starts with relationships. I’ve never heard anyone else talk about sales, that relationships is actually the first part of our cycle of selling, we call it the service centered sale selling cycle. And you go service centered sales cycle.

AJ (06:17)
a lot of us is service.

Again, service centered

selling cycle. Yeah, there we go.

RORY (06:28)
And, and we have something that’s just called like the relational equity matrix. And we go, okay, what are all the things you can do? So one is, you can give people encouragement, you can send people referrals, you can send people recommended vendors, you can help them hire people, you can ⁓ advise them on some portion of their business, you can send them gifts, you can create experiences for them, you can volunteer for them. Like there’s

all of these things that you can do for people that add value to them. And it’s not just money. you you know, if you have money, some of it is right, like, you know, a lot of if you’re trying to get to really, really successful people, it’s like, don’t and you have money, donate money to their foundation, volunteer to be on their board, but like,

the way to get to people is not by saying what can I do for you or what can I get from you? It’s what can I do for you? And it’s really just being open to what do they need? ⁓ You know, I use the story of Gretchen Rubin a lot who’s not a brand builders group client. And, you know, has over the years become more and more of a friend. But all I did was wait for when she had a book launch, reached out to her, pitched her to be on my podcast. And I said, Hey,

I don’t have a huge podcast, but I know a lot of podcasters. And if you come on my show and I get a feel for what you’re looking for, I will personally go out and pitch you to like 20 shows. And she did that and I did that and we became friends. it was a slow been a slow relationship over the years. But those are the kinds of things it’s not what can I get, it’s what can I give? That’s good. And there’s lots of different things you can give people.

even if you can’t give them an audience because you don’t have an audience, there’s other things you have that you can give.

AJ (08:15)
Yeah, everyone has something. Definitely. It’s just how do you position that in the best service to the person you’re trying to build a relationship with.

RORY (08:23)
And it

starts by doing something that you actually do really, really well. It’s listening by watching. It’s not just listening, like listening to what they say, you watch what they’re involved with, you watch what they’re interested in, you watch what they’re doing, and you sort of anticipate the needs that they have. Because you can’t ask them, what do you need, then you’re just creating work for them to do.

AJ (08:50)
I would tell you like to that, ⁓ and I love that you should probably formalize that strategy and share it more often. That’s really good. One of the things that I have become really focused and intentional about doing is every single time I meet someone as they’re talking, my number one objective is to pinpoint who I can introduce them to. Like it doesn’t matter how long I’ve known you, how long I’ve talked to you, it could be five minutes or five hours. ⁓

Every conversation is going to end with, have someone you should meet. You said something that made me think about this. Let me know if you’d like an introduction. I do that no matter what to every client, every prospect, every friend, every stranger. Like if you’re engaged with me, my number one goal is who can I connect you to? I am very intentionally trying to become a connector in every single conversation. I just think that’s one of the most

value-ridden things I can provide is valuable connection.

RORY (09:53)
And it’s mutually valuable to both of them and valuable to you as a byproduct.

AJ (09:57)
But it’s

also something that I’m intentionally wanting to become known for. And so I’m very intentional about everywhere I go. like, want people to know that they can come to me for connections and referrals and resources. Like, I want to be known as the person to go to if you’re looking for blank kind of connection. And I think that’s just that. And I share that only because anyone can do it.

Like anyone can do that. You don’t have to have some like Navy SEAL expertise or like some like secret skill set. Anyone can become a master connector.

RORY (10:35)
Totally. And I’ve always been a big believer. You know, one of my favorite quotes is that Mark Twain quote that says every man is my superior in some way. Related to that, I’ve always thought to myself, everybody is a somebody somewhere. Yeah, right. Like, everyone has a hookup or a connection to something somewhere. And if you can figure out what does everybody have the like hookup to the connection, and then other people need that and vice versa.

AJ (10:52)
something to

RORY (11:02)
It’s just like you become this this facilitator, this conduit, and the value rubs off on you as you create all of these connections. ⁓

AJ (11:11)
I

love that just for a second like for those of you who are going well, I don’t know anybody like I Don’t have anything I could offer. It’s like first of all, that’s a terribly limiting mindset So whoever is listening who’s already saying that as you’re listening driving down the road is like stop that right now But it’s like I literally was thinking about like I have a person to go to I’m like Hey, who’s selling raw milk out of their trunk? Like where we’re gonna find it or you know, like it doesn’t matter like what it is It’s like a lot of friend who does that I have a friend who sells raw milk or I have a friend who has fresh

or you know I have a friend who whatever it’s like no matter what it is so it doesn’t matter what the thing is or what your socioeconomic status is everybody knows somebody somewhere right and so it’s like really try to train your brain on like how can I just become a resource but that that only works if you’re actually listening like if you’re actually

listening. Like I was in a conversation earlier this week with a couple of other parents who homeschool their kids and our kids are homeschooled and I always have to clarify I am not a homeschooler because some people will hear that and think I am, I am not. I’m not equipped for that amazing role but our kids are homeschooled. They go to a homeschool academy and so they were talking about well how did you do that and how did you get into that and I was like ⁓ let me tell you and like I had like three or four like teed up resources had nothing to do with work. It was all about homeschool and I’m like well this

is where we, you know, register with and this is how we did this and this is who I go to do the fat for that. It doesn’t matter what it is, right? It’s like whatever is whatever it is, have your list, be a resource, but you got to listen for it. Whatever it is.

RORY (12:46)
Yeah, whatever you’re into. That’s

a good transition to this. This question, I think is powerful. And it is what’s the difference between being well known and being well paid? ⁓ And how do I achieve both? But let’s start with the first part of the question of what’s the difference between being well known and well paid? Do you have to be well known to be well paid?

And I’m curious your thoughts on this because you’ve become well paid over the years and not you’re not necessarily the most famous person. So that’s my introduction.

AJ (13:20)
So rude.

She knows no one and no one knows her.

RORY (13:27)
you know everybody here’s the thing is you are the definition of well-known like in your space in your communities and that’s what I want people to see is to go like everybody is modeling after like these people with a bunch of followers but like even the people with a bunch of followers the equity they create is their offline relationships and like

AJ (13:49)
Way to save it, Rory. Just trying to come back here. How have I become so unwell known?

RORY (13:52)
Yes, so tell us.

Yeah, how have you become well-paid without knowing anybody and anybody knowing you?

AJ (14:02)
Wow, actually was gonna start with both of those things are really relative. Like what is well known? What is well paid? I think that’s all super relative based on who you’re talking to, right? Like yeah, if you compare me to Mel Robbins, I’m very unknown comparatively speaking, but if you compare me to, you know,

RORY (14:10)
and what is well paid.

AJ (14:27)
Sally Jo down the street, I’m probably fairly well known. So I think it’s all relative. I think that the balance and all of that is don’t compare yourself to anyone else. And I think that’s probably why I’ve always been fairly well paid, as I don’t really compare myself too much to other people. I don’t really care what they’re doing. I never really have, you know, that’s a gift I’ve been given. ⁓

RORY (14:51)
You have a

zero impressibility score. Other than Dolly Parton, there’s nobody in the world that impresses you.

AJ (14:58)
She’s impressive, I’m not gonna lie, she’s impressive. ⁓ But I do really think it comes down to this whole idea of being well known. And what I love about the conversation today is I don’t need to be well known by a lot of people, I need to be well known by my people. And that all starts with knowing who my people are.

⁓ I go into some, know, like Rory very much represents like the marketing side, like the digital marketing side of BBG. you know, he’s always trying to get me to go to like these different events with him with all these very well-known like influencer and, you know, and I’m like, that’s not my people. Those are your people. Like I don’t fit there.

Like I try and I’m like, they’re talking all this stuff and I just glaze over. I don’t know, I got dozed off, blacked out. It’s not my thing. And what I have been really okay with is like, I know my people. And I’m pretty well known in the entrepreneur crowd of our town because I make an effort to be so.

Right? I’m involved in the entrepreneur organization. I do networking lunches with them. I host dinners for them. I help be on boards with them. It’s like, I’m trying to be well-known in this space where I want to be well-known. And it’s not a huge space. It’s a very niche space in my town. ⁓ So it’s small.

but that’s where I want to be known. And so that’s where I focus my time and attention. And I think that’s what it means to be well known is you just have to be very clear on who do I want to be known by and where are they? And you got to show up.

RORY (16:32)
Yeah, the other thing is you’re talking this ties back to what we were saying earlier is I’m realizing, ironically, one of the best ways to become well known.

is to help other people meet each other. And when you help other people meet each other, you get caught in the crossfire. Like going back to my Gretchen Rubin story, right? It’s like Gretchen Rubin would never know who I am today. If I had never introduced her to all these people and introduced her to this like mastermind that I’m in that now she’s a part of, right? And it’s like now

I am somebody to her. And she would recognize me not because of my accomplishments and my audience and you know, like, I mean, she sold so many books compared to how many books I’ve sold or whatever, right. But it’s like I’m known to her because I helped her know other people. And I think the same is true about wealth, right? It’s like, if you want to help other people, if you want to get wealthy, help other people get wealthy. One of my favorite quotes I heard recently was billionaires are just people who create millionaires.

AJ (17:31)
Yeah,

I love that.

RORY (17:32)
So good. Yeah.

And so true, right? And it’s like, everyone’s approaching it. This whole conversation is about flipping this switch from going, how do I get and how do I become to how do I give and how do I help others become? And the irony is that when you focus on how do I give and help others become, you get when you focus on how do I get and how do I become you don’t get. And that is just like super ironic.

AJ (18:00)
Yeah. And the thing that we can all give is introductions and connections. It doesn’t matter. And so I guess back to how do you become well known? It’s one, it’s relative, right? Don’t compare. But most importantly, it’s like, you got to know who you want to be well known and you have to know where they gather. And then you have to show up consistently. Right. And so I think that’s, that is how you become well known in a niche space, right? Famous in your space. Now on the other part of well paid,

Again relative, right? ⁓ It’s all relative. So once don’t compare whatever well-paid is to you whatever well-known is to you a lot of you are trying to build local presence own it be good with it Some of you are just like I would just like it’s my dream to make six figures Awesome, don’t compare yourself to someone trying to make eight figures. Don’t do it. It’s not worth it So just stay in your lane put some blinders on and be like this is my calling This is my path my race. You can only run your race

You cannot run someone else’s with all of that said, ⁓ how to become well paid. You just said that awesome quote is that the billionaires are just people who make millionaires. heard another quote here recently, similar to that, that I’ve really latched onto is that seven figure earners, seven figure earners master the basics that six figure earners are too advanced to do. And I’ve really hung on to that of like,

No, seven-figure earners are just people who are not above doing the basics and the fundamentals. They are masters of the basics that six-figure earners are too advanced to do. And I think that’s so good and it’s so wise and a great reminder to all of us is that making money is not hard. It’s a numbers game. And it requires you to become a master of the basics, which is

work the numbers.

RORY (19:59)
Literally, I think even us right? We’ve had multiple eight figure ventures now at this this point three ⁓ and the You and I spend our time going how do we get more calls on the calendar? How do we renew more customers?

AJ (20:19)
Same conversation.

RORY (20:20)
how do we get more referrals? And even on our financial calls, it’s like we’re just trying to get our our PNL tight and go like get it accurate and go are these benchmarks in place? And what is it compared to our budget? And what is it over prior year? Like the most fundamental I had somebody reach out to me, a friend of ours that we you know, we haven’t seen for a few years. And he reached out to me with the most beautiful question. And this is someone who doesn’t earn a lot of money.

AJ (20:35)
more.

RORY (20:50)
It was a really beautiful question and I was honored that he reached out. don’t even know if I told you this, but he has a son and he’s a single dad and he said, if I could just save up $5,000 for my son, Rory, I know you know this stuff, tell me what to do with it so that he could have money when he’s grown up. Right? And this is like a friend of ours that doesn’t have a hard work. You know who I’m talking about?

AJ (21:14)
I know exactly your time.

RORY (21:16)
I was like, first of all, such a beautiful question to go, this dad is trying to change the legacy of his family. He’s trying to do something for his son. And he is going, I want my son to have a better life than I do, or a different life than I have. Next, I was totally honored that he reached out to me. just like, don’t know, I haven’t talked to this guy in a couple years. And I was like,

I am so flattered and honored that you had asked me and that you think I would actually have some type of answer. And then I definitely responded with a very thorough but simple answer as I said, Hey, Jane, I don’t do crazy investments. We don’t own like a whole bunch of stuff. We do growth stock mutual funds and we invest early and I said if you just take $5,000 and you put this in a simple IRA,

and you don’t try to gamble and make bazillions and you just let because of your son’s age he’s like five years old if it grew at eight percent for 60 years it would be worth over five hundred thousand dollars and that was powerful and and also you know i hope the lesson in for him was like it’s simple like it’s it’s it’s simple stuff

Most people are like, how do I get rich quick? How do I say I want want crypto I want so I want to I want to own 27 companies I need to invest in 47 different and I want I want apartment complexes I want fix and flip and I all this stuff and it’s like no we’re like really boring with our or you’re awesomely boring and and and I also think back you know a lot of my friends that when we started brand builders group which it was our you know a new endeavor at the time

AJ (22:52)
awesomely awesomely boring

RORY (23:07)
A lot of them go, I can’t believe how fast you’ve grown. And they’re like, I remember when you talked about 1000 messengers when you started the company. And like, you actually are still doing the thing like we, we haven’t even gotten there yet. And but we haven’t changed direction. Like it’s been the thing. It’s, it’s totally the fundamental.

AJ (23:26)
It

is the fundamentals. It’s not the sexy thing that everyone wants to talk about, but it’s becoming a master of the basics. And to be well paid, it’s like, you got to work the numbers. Right? It really is a work the numbers. It’s just, you don’t, and that’s the beautiful thing about it is like, you don’t have to be a masterful marketer or a masterful salesperson. You just got to work the numbers and let the ratios fall out. And the more you do it, the better you get.

It’s kind of a great thing. I would say the only thing that has made me a pretty good salesperson over the years is like, I’m just going to outlast everybody else. My follow-up game is strong. My organization game, my calendar game is strong. It’s like, I’m just going to outlast everyone else. That just gets bored and moves on. It’s master the fundamentals and work the numbers.

RORY (24:18)
Another thing on this monetization strategy is the David and Goliath. And ⁓ everyone knows the story of David and Goliath, but also Malcolm Gladwell wrote a book called David and Goliath. And the argument that Malcolm Gladwell makes in that book, and it’s a fascinating book as is everything he writes, is that we all think that David had this miraculous moment where he overcame the giant. ⁓

there’s an argument for that for sure, and God was with David, but… And what Malcolm, the argument he makes is he says, yeah, but David also had an advantage. This guy was huge and was weighed down by all of this armor. David was nimble and quick, and he had spent his young life fighting lions with a slingshot. this wasn’t just like a random lucky shot. He had spent his life preparing, and this particular set of circumstances worked to his advantage.

AJ (24:49)
But God equipped David, prepared David.

RORY (25:14)
The reason I point that out, a lot of people listening that don’t have huge followings, they think they’re at a disadvantage of like, huh, I’m not famous enough, no one is gonna buy from me, et cetera. ⁓ Or they think I’m new to entrepreneurship, how am I ever gonna compete with people who’ve been doing this for 20 years? And what you don’t realize is that the earlier you are, you have an advantage. And the advantage is that you have more time.

Right? When you’re you either have time or you have money. And you always know which one it is because if you don’t if you don’t have have time if you have if you don’t have money, then that means you have time or you’re not spending your time right. But when you’re starting out, you can offer a level of service that is intimate and up close and personal that is worth way more money to fewer people. It’s easier to sell

higher dollar offers to fewer people who pay you more for more attention. That is the fastest path to a lot of money. People who have huge audiences and huge teams, they can’t offer that level of service because they don’t have that much time available because they’re busy managing their team and managing the empire and all this stuff. So what you think is a disadvantage actually is an advantage. It’s like David being small and nimble and quick. And when you’re new to this business, here’s the other thing.

you can charge less, right? Like, people who are famous and have a lot of demand, they can’t sell one on one coaching for a low dollar amount because the demand is so high, they have to charge more because they don’t have that much time available. You can what you have the advantage of when you’re just starting out is supply, you have lots of supply. Now demand is low and supply is high, which means the price is low. That’s an advantage. You can go to the market,

and sell at a lower price, which is what you should do. And then you raise your prices over time. So what feels like a disadvantage of not being famous actually totally is. What feels like a disadvantage of being new as an entrepreneur actually is a tremendous advantage. You just got to change the mindset and the limiting beliefs that are there.

AJ (27:31)
Yeah, I love that. All right, well, this is a good transition into our community question. All right, Rory, tell us what this section is all about and what’s the question of the day.

RORY (27:39)
Community questions. So this

is great, right? So at Brand Builders Group, we have members that are in part of our coaching program that we foster relationship and help them build their business. And inside of our actual portal, they can write in questions to me and AJ and other members vote up the questions. And then the top ones we pick here for the show. So this one comes from Michelle. It says I am a nutritionist who works specifically with women over 40 going through perimenopause.

I know exactly who I serve and I love the work, but there are so many health and wellness influencers out there that I feel completely invisible. How do I break through and become the go-to name for my exact client without competing with people who have 10 times my following and 100 times my budget? What a perfect question for what we’ve just been talking about.

AJ (28:33)
I was

just thinking the same thing. That’s just the perfect question for you. Women over 40 going through peri-man-pause. Can you not relate to that? Exactly. I love this question. It’s like, how do I break through and become the go-to name for my exact clients? So what I love about this is that, knowing what you do and who you are, I bet you don’t need thousands of clients. I bet you couldn’t even handle hundreds of clients. I bet

you’re looking for dozens of Fast, bet. So how do you become the go-to name for your exact client?

RORY (29:05)
if even doesn’t.

AJ (29:11)
Assuming you have some clients, it’s to double down on those clients. It is to give them a life changing experience and then ask them to refer you to their friends. And that’s the unique thing about your exact business, Michelle, is that women over 40 going through perimenopause, they know other women who are over 40 going through perimenopause because we’re all talking about it. That’s for sure. Everybody’s talking about it, right? So you can find them. You know where they are, right? And so it’s like one, it’s like, don’t forget the best

client you have is or the best client to get is the one that you already have. So use those people to get referrals and get referred but don’t just ask for a referral be like hey I know this is a hot topic with everyone I’d love to host a lunch. If you would just invite five friends I would love to do a free luncheon, a free webinar.

It’s like just ask every single one of your clients. Like if you would invite five of your best friends who are going through the exact same thing, you are, I’d to take everyone to coffee. I’d love to host a lunch. I’ll do a virtual webinar, whatever it is. If you have local clients, great. If they’re, if they’re out of town, fine, do it virtually, but just start going like, I just want to meet these people in person. I want to look them in the eye. I want to learn what their issues are. And I want to let them know that there’s a better way and start with the clients that you have. Do coffees, do luncheons, do happy hours, do

Saturday morning workouts and ask people to invite people to come with them, your clients, invite their friends. We’re all talking about, we all know who each other are. That’s where I would start. Then the next thing that I would do, because you don’t need 10 times the following and a hundred times the budget, as I’d start going to every single person who services these people who are over 40 going through perimenopause, I’d build relationships. I’d start with my OBGYN, right? I’d start with my physician.

I would start with every single person that serves me as a 42 year old woman, not yet going through perimenopause, but like I would start there and it’s like, these are all the people that serve me. I’m going to start building relationships with people because I know they have more people like me, right? I know they know more people like me. And I’m going to just take that grassroots local referral word of mouth marketing because I serve my clients so well. It’s an easy yes, because I’m giving them life changing results.

It’s an easy yes to invite other people into something for free to learn about what I do. That’s what I would do if I were you.

RORY (31:36)
Yes, this so good. And I have to come back here to the story of David and Goliath in the Bible. There is one of the…if you read Scripture on this story, it is going how David…they tried to suit David up in armor, and he said, I can’t wear this armor.

He was, David was smart enough to know or spirit-led enough to know that he couldn’t compete with Goliath at his own game, size versus size. David was smart enough to say, I’m going to embrace my strengths and the things that God’s given me and I’m going to use those tools, a slingshot and no armor. And small entrepreneurs need to do the same thing. You might not be able to compete on size of audience. What you can compete on is intimacy and access to the clients.

serve a smaller group of clients in a deeper way. There’s, you know, you can make $100,000 by selling 1000 people $100 product, you got to have a big audience to sell 1000 people $100 product. The other way you can make $100,000 is to sell 10 people a $10,000 product. And it’s way easier to do that and serve a small group of 10 10 people in a very, very deep way.

That’s how I’d be thinking I’d be doing exactly the things that you.

AJ (32:53)
said. Yeah. And if you’re out there listening and you’re going, well, how do I take all this information and apply it to what I’m building to my audience, to my business, then honestly, we would just really encourage you to take us up on our free call offer. ⁓ One of our team members at Brandbender’s group will sit down with you for a one hour free strategy call to talk about what you got going on, how we can help. And even if we’re not a fit with you, give you some tips and advice and some struck an instruction to keep you on the right

path. if you want to take us up on that, ⁓ we would encourage you to go to freebraincall.com forward slash podcast.

freebrandcall.com forward slash podcast and grab a call with someone on our team so that you can talk through how can you take some of these ideas and apply them to help you grow your business and serve the audience that you’re meant to serve. Now, we’d also love it if you would share this episode. So if you’re not ready for that call, but you’re all like, wow, this was helpful. I have more friends who need to hear this, then please share this, like it, leave us a review on whatever platform you listen to it.

We would so appreciate it. And most importantly, we invite you to come back and listen to another episode the next time on the Wealthy and Well-Known Podcast. We’ll see you later, y’all.

listen up. You do not need the whole internet to know your name.

RORY (34:17)
just the ones who are in your wonderfully weird little corner of it.

WWK Ep 024: Why Less Qualified People Make More Money Than Experts

Rory (00:00)
It’s one of the things that breaks my heart and makes me so angry about the world that we live in today is that I think a lot of the most under qualified people are getting the most attention and the most revenue and I don’t think that’s fair. But whether I like it or not, it is what it is. So we’re going to teach about how to

AJ (00:17)
That’s interesting because

I don’t have that same disdain that you do at all. don’t.

Rory (00:28)
Here is something uncomfortable that I’ve learned that you probably aren’t going to like. It’s painful to hear this, but customers don’t buy from you because of your credentials.

This is one of the most frustrating things that we hear time and time again from mission driven messengers. Why am I more qualified than other people out in the marketplace, but I don’t seem to have as much traction. That’s what we’re going to talk about on today’s episode is how to convert your credentials into customers and why they don’t convert just by themselves. So if you are someone who is qualified to build a great personal brand, but you feel sometimes like a little bit of the world’s best kept secret, we’re going to unblock that for

you here on the show. Joined by my business partner, best friend, CEO of Brand Builders Group, co founder, co author, New York Times bestselling author.

AJ (01:17)
You’re

always so nice about introducing me and I always forget to Like as you were doing that I’m like I always forget I just roll into the conversation

Rory (01:21)
Yeah, you never introduced me.

That’s how you are. You’re like, all right, let’s get down to business.

AJ (01:33)
business.

Yeah, I’m like, let’s get on with the conversation. Today. So yeah, so here’s I think this is a good question, because I think that we’ll have similar, but varying responses. Yeah, of why don’t credentials actually help you grow your personal brand? Because I think we spend so much time just as professionals, of trying to get that next certification, right? Get that next credential, get those next three letters behind your name. And it’s like at the end of the day, that

Rory (01:35)
What is our conversation?

AJ (02:03)
doesn’t really necessarily move the needle. Why not?

Rory (02:09)
The answer I would say to why that doesn’t matter is because people don’t buy you. They buy them. Right. They’re not buying really who you are. They’re buying what they want. They’re buying their dream. They’re buying their transformation. So so it’s it’s not I think people who are chronic overachievers and academics. OK. Right here you got two people who did really well in school. Right. I was I was a study bug as was AJ.

AJ (02:34)
High School Valac

Tutorian over there.

Rory (02:36)
I was high school valedictorian of a very small school. I beat the other guy. ⁓ We had 90 people in our class. you know, it was, it was something, but I think those of us that value traditional academia and research and credentials and things like that, we tend to assume that other people will not only value them, but that they will buy because of them and pay more because of them. And it’s just not true. People will pay whoever is available.

AJ (02:57)
them.

Rory (03:06)
whoever is accessible and whoever they think can help them get a result. And I’m not saying I like it. In fact, I’m saying I hate it. It’s one of the things that breaks my heart and makes me so angry about the world that we live in today is that I think a lot of the most under qualified people are getting the most attention and the most revenue and I don’t think that’s fair. But whether I like it or not, it is what it is. So we’re going to teach about how to

AJ (03:33)
That’s interesting because

I don’t have that same disdain that you do at all. don’t. ⁓ I think that it’s really important. It’s really valuable, specifically in some professions. There are some industries, some professions where that does hold more clout and more weight and I would expect for you to charge more and that would be justified. ⁓ But I think for a lot of people, they’re going, no, I just want to know that you’ve done the thing.

Not that you’ve studied the thing, learned about the thing, researched the thing, like reported on the thing. I want to know you’ve done the thing. And I think a lot about like, even as we do a lot of interviewing and recruiting at Brandbuilders group, I have literally stopped looking at education. I don’t know if that’s good or bad. Sorry to admit it here. I don’t care what your GPA is.

I don’t care where you went to school, don’t even care what your degree is. I want to know what was the last five years of your work experience.

Rory (04:33)
Right. Have you done the thing? Yeah.

Well, and that to me is OK. Right. And that’s where to me, I think that’s an important conversation is where does real credibility come from.

AJ (04:42)
But to the point, right? It’s like, yes and, right? It’s like, it’s great when we go and we do all of that academic. We were talking about this the other day.

Rory (04:51)
There is somewhere that credentials matters a lot, a lot, a lot.

AJ (04:54)
Yes, but we were also talking about the other day of, you know, we have some friends that we know in our life who were like, a, students, valedictorian, top of their class and love them to death, but can’t think for themselves. It’s like literally if it wasn’t in a book, if they couldn’t follow the exact process for it, like they can’t think for themselves.

Rory (05:18)
They can memorize information, but they can’t critique.

AJ (05:21)
It

cannot, it will not transfer to real life. There’s not a system for that. There’s not a process for that. There’s not an SOP for that. I don’t have a one pager for that. Like I just need you to go figure it out and they cannot do it. And so I think there’s, there’s some of that, that, you know, I think academia can almost, almost drive the natural creativity out of us that has starting to really kind of expose itself. It’s like, well, yeah, you’ve

researched and taught all the things, but you’ve never actually done the thing. Now that’s different for the person who has researched it and done it. So just, want to make a clarification that it’s not saying getting your MBA, master’s, PhD is an important and valuable. I really do think in a lot of places it matters a lot. And in other places it doesn’t. So it’s knowing the difference of the two. So if I would actually just take a side, you know, like a master’s MBA or PhD for a second.

And what I find more people are doing or going like, where can I get this next certification? And will this next thing help me do this? And it’s, that’s the part where I’m like, you are spending your time in the wrong areas. You’re trying to go get certified in something, somehow thinking some letters behind your name is going to get you business instead of actually doing the sales work that needs to be done. It’s creative avoidance in a regard. It’s trying to figure out, Hey, is there some sort of way I don’t have to go make the sales calls or have the conversations.

and can I just go learn some stuff and hopefully people will find me.

Rory (06:51)
the part I think where you know you say disdain it’s like I don’t have heartburn with somebody who has done the thing getting the business I actually love that even more than the academia and the research and I go like to me all you need to be credible is that you’ve actually done the thing yeah your most powerfully positioned to serve the person you once were you conquered the challenge you walked the path you solved the problem you triumped over the tragedy you overcame the obstacle to me that is

is the ultimate level playing field of what deserves credibility. I don’t mind when that person wins. What I don’t love is when the best marketer wins without either the credibility, without either the academic, what I’m saying is academic credibility or the life experience. And that’s what I’m seeing a lot today.

AJ (07:29)
without,

breaks

my heart. That’s frustrating. That’s annoying. But yes, yeah, I was thinking about one of our clients that we were talking to earlier this week, and she has her PhD in seismot…

Rory (07:52)
seismology

she’s an earthquake

AJ (07:54)
No, I’m not

a PhD in this. But yeah, she’s an earthquake engineer. And I’m like, yeah, I need you to have a PhD. Yeah, I really want you what’s the next class you can take? Yeah, I really want you to make sure that, you know, architectural foundations are secure and high earthquake prone areas. Like I need you to have a PhD. Like that’s important. But then in other areas, like to your point where it’s the person who’s just

you know, marketing that they’ve done the thing, they haven’t done the thing, haven’t studied the thing, they have no credentials. And when they’re winning, that’s, that’s, that’s giving us all a little bit of a bad rep.

Rory (08:31)
Well, and I think, you know, don’t hear what we’re not saying. We’re not saying that credentials aren’t important in particularly one area. If you stay tuned, we’ll talk about where credentials really do matter. So we’ll get to that. But

what we are saying is that the people who are winning today aren’t the smartest, they’re not the most qualified, they’re not even the most experienced, they are the best marketers. And that it comes down to marketing and sales and those, and in some ways that is just doing the thing. Like when you’re building an entrepreneur, that’s what it means to be an entrepreneur. One of the things I’ve been saying a lot like in the last year is that creators favorite form of creative avoidance is to create. Creators favorite form of creative avoidance is to create.

is an academics favorite form of creative avoidance is to study, like to study stuff, to learn the thing and not actually, you know, do the marketing and sales. And so I think what we want to talk about is why first, so let’s start there. So why doesn’t credentials equal customers? What do you think?

AJ (09:18)
the

Genuine believe that credentials don’t equal customers because true experts are spending all of their time, money, energy, and resources actually honing their craft and not telling anyone about what they do. I believe it really does sit on the individual where they are so consumed with the next research and studying and analytics and diving into case studies. And they’re so busy doing the thing that they have never looked up and actually told anyone about the expertise they have.

I think that real true experts, what we’re actually talking about are the world’s best kept secrets because they have not had the desire or the reason to equally study sales and marketing. They have an amazing passion for a thing and it does not include the business components of the thing.

Rory (10:34)
is interesting because we have an explosion in our community of like doctors, like lawyers, professional advisors who spent their career doing the thing. And I think what we’re learning, we talk about this in Wealthy and Well-Known, is that there are two parts of your art. There is the art of your art, and then there is the art of letting people know that your art exists. Marketing is art. Marketing is part of

your art and as people wake up to that, right, I think about Dr. Gabrielle Lyons, one of my favorite, you know, success stories of one of our clients who just she just kills it. She’s like a deep, deep expertise, spent her whole life researching like the real deal doctor, you know, like not an honorary degree, like a straight up this is the this is the real deal. And then she’s also become a master in in marketing the last couple years and branding and positioning and she’s just crushing it and she’s changing lives. And

AJ (11:31)
But that’s also because academia doesn’t teach those types of professions, business, sales and marketing. And that’s a real problem. And I hope that really changes in academia because it’s like for anyone to be insanely successful at their craft, they’re gonna have to learn the business components of how to run that business.

Rory (11:55)
I

mean, it’s crazy. I did get an MBA from a private school, you know, a great university shout out to Denver University, go pioneers. ⁓ But like,

that MBA, everything that we were taught about how to start a business was all about like raising money and pitch decks and like other people’s money and investors like, and the reality is that most entrepreneurs, they bootstrap it, start, you got to sell, you got to market, it’s more of that like guerrilla tactics and it was like, I didn’t learn a thing about any of that.

even the marketing we learned is like, you know, the four piece of marketing with you if you’re managing a $500,000 a year advertising budget, but it’s like, that’s not where entrepreneurship happens, right? It’s not where you start.

AJ (12:39)
That’s why I think most people are spending all of their time honing their craft, which is why they’re true experts, but they yet have not made the time to hone the skills necessary in the sales and marketing arena.

Rory (12:51)
So let’s talk about the skills

required in the sales and marketing arena. And this is a thing that us academics need to understand that we do not. When you have poured your life into your craft, you tend, I’ll speak for myself and people that I know, we tend to think people should respect us for what we’ve done and

operate accordingly. And this is where I think doctors and academics get a little of a bad rap of like, oh, they’re arrogant, because it’s like, yeah, because I put in the time to do this. But in the marketplace, people don’t buy because of you. They don’t because of how smart you are. They don’t buy because of how many degrees you have. Usually, they don’t even understand what the initials after your last name even stand for. They only buy because of what you can do for them. And if everything is about you and how great you are, and what you’ve done, and your research, and why you’re the best,

They frankly don’t care. They care about, can you help me succeed? How fast and who else have you done that for? Not how long have you studied it? Not what awards have you won? Not why you’re the world’s greatest? Just do you have a plan to help me succeed? Have you helped other people succeed? Can you do it fast? And can you articulate that clearly? And if you spend all your time talking about yourself, you’re going to be a highly qualified, very broke entrepreneur.

AJ (14:13)
Well, I think the other thing is too, I think this is really worthwhile, is that I think if you are in a industry, a profession where credentials carry a lot of weight, medical field, health care field, financials, like some of those other kind of things, ⁓ to be honest, they’re just the standard prerequisite. It’s almost the expectation that it’s

Rory (14:39)
just have a

CPA or that you have all these financial designations that

AJ (14:44)
You don’t get the

credit that they warrant because it’s kind of like the price of entrance. So I think there’s some of that that’s occurring where it’s like, well, yeah, of course, that’s just what you, that’s what I expect for you to do. But we had the opportunity to hear Dr. Henry Cloud speak a week ago and he was talking about how he selected his knee surgeon. And I thought it was very interesting. You know, he’s an academic.

Right. He’s got a PhD in psychology and he had gotten multiple referrals to three different types of doctors and one was world-class, well-known LA.

you know, knee surgeon to the stars and another one was recommended that was out of state. And then there was another one and another one had founded a clinic and he went through all these things. And it was so interesting to me how he selected the one he selected. And the one he selected is the one who actually took the time to ask questions about him, had done research on him, said, I see you’re a golfer. And like, it was all these things. Cause again, people aren’t buying your credentials.

Right? They’re buying what you can do for them. And out of all the doctors he selected, he chose, he lives in LA, to leave LA, or he did at the time, and go to Little Rock.

Rory (16:04)
Yeah, Arkansas.

AJ (16:05)
to have

this knee surgery done. And it’s like he was surrounded by world-class surgeons all around him. And he was like, but they didn’t care about me. They didn’t ask me questions. It was about, see this all the time. I know I’m the doctor. And the one he selected was like, hey, I see you’re a golfer. When’s the last time you got to golf? I can’t believe you’re walking around on that thing. Tell me when the pain started. And he said, they took time to get to know me and catered what they did to my goals.

to what I wanted to restore to, and that’s the one he selected. And I think that’s the same that goes for anyone, doesn’t matter what credentials you have or have not, it’s are you going to take the time to get to know your customer? Because it’s not just about what you’ve learned, it’s how can you apply what you’ve learned to help the person right in front of you.

Rory (16:53)
Yeah, and I think, you know, a risk is if you’ve put a lot of time into credentials, you want people to view you as important because you’ve earned that. But people don’t buy because you’re important. They buy because you make them feel important. And that’s a really important, that’s a key shift to understand. You know, I think about the speaking industry, right? Like, I see this all the time. I’ll lose a speaking gig to someone. I’m a certified speaking professional. I’m a CPAE, Council of Peers Awards of Excellence for the Hall of Fame. I’ve been a two time world champion.

of public speaking finalists. And, and never has anyone hired me for any of those things. In fact, I lose gigs a lot to people who don’t have any of that kind of training, but they’re more well known than I am. They’re a better marketer, they’re they their book sells better, whatever, like, they have more, they’ve done a better job of getting to the decision maker, and, and making their expertise more relevant to the decision maker than I have now. So I think that’s, that’s important.

AJ (17:25)
so impressed by it.

Rory (17:53)
distinction for people to understand. And it doesn’t mean that the credentials aren’t important or worth pursuing. It’s just they’re not the things that lead to conversion.

AJ (18:02)
Now you did mention earlier though, there’s one area where credentials really matter. I think we should talk about it.

Rory (18:08)
Should we talk about that?

The area that credentials really mattered is when you are getting featured as a guest on media. It really does matter. And people ask me this all the time. I think it was last week we just had our 116th client become a national bestselling author, which was also the 24th client that we’ve helped hit the New York Times.

we are helping clients hit the New York Times, honestly, ethically, and regularly right now, knock on wood. And it’s through a lot of hard work, and it’s a lot of energy, and it’s a lot of time, and it’s a lot of resources. And people say, is the New York, does the New York Times bestseller list still matter? And it’s like, to the average person on the street, it matters zero. In our national research study, we actually proved that the average person on the street

cannot tell the difference between a New York Times bestselling author, a Wall Street Journal, USA Today, Amazon, they can’t even tell the difference between a traditionally published book, a hybrid book, or a self published book. They do not know, they do not care. So when it comes to making money from customers, they only care, can you help them? for the media, it matters. If you’re gonna get on Good Morning America, if you’re gonna get booked on the biggest podcast, you know, I use Louis just because he’s, you know, a friend.

AJ (19:19)
The idea matters.

Rory (19:29)
Lewis gets so many books, Lewis Howes I’m talking about. So School of Greatness, they have one of the biggest podcasts in the world. Every week people send them books. And there’s two piles. There’s the automatic no pile. And then there is the maybe pile. And if you’re a New York Times bestselling author, you automatically get into the maybe pile. Doesn’t mean you get it. It means that you are immediately separated from 90 % of the people you probably get a look. And that’s true.

for a national or a local, particularly a local TV interview, that’s true for a speakers bureau, a literary agent, ⁓ any type of podcast or media interview. And if that’s why, if you show me someone who’s getting $50,000 to speak consistently, I will show you a bestselling author. I’m not saying I like it, but I’m telling you that is how it is. And companies have to be able to justify paying a certain amount of money, and they use credentials as part of it. So credentials still matter a lot

in those circles in the in the street cred of your industry right in those rooms at the National Speakers Association being a CSP and a CPA ⁓ it makes a world of difference. At Toastmasters it means nothing at Toastmasters being a two-time world champion of public speaking finalist is a big deal. There’s nowhere else in the world does it matter at all like nobody knows and so that’s but but if you’re trying to get a meeting

AJ (20:57)
video.

any industry. Totally like credentials matter in your industry because you’re all speaking the same language. You know what it takes, but outside of your industry to get customers, not as much. But I would say like that’s the same for like industry conferences, getting on panels, credentials matter for that. Why? Because they held a different standard. They act as a filter of somebody who has done more work, earned something that most do not. Books act as a filter, right? If you have a book, that’s one thing. It was a best selling book. It was at Amazon. Was it USA Today?

day, was it New York Times, they act as filters. But for consumers, for dollars and cents, maybe not as much. So I want to break the rest of our interview up into two categories. there’s a lot to cover in this conversation. And here are the two categories. The first one is, okay, what if I’m someone who doesn’t have a lot of credentials? But I do have a lot of experience, like a street cred, right? How do I build my credibility without a big name or really well known resume? So that’s

Part one. Part two is, okay, what if I have all the credentials? Like I am a full blown expert and I have all the letters behind my name to prove it and I spent all the money to do it. And time. And time. Like I have got all the things and yet it’s not really working for me. So those are the two categories. What can each of those category of people start doing today to help them grow and scale their business?

Rory (22:04)
BULL

All right, so we’ll talk about the first person who has the experience and maybe not the former credentials. This person struggles the most with imposter syndrome. They doubt whether or not they’ve earned the right to do it. And I would argue that…

If you’ve walked the path and overcome it yourself, you are as qualified as anyone else in the world to teach what you’ve done and to teach the way that you’ve done it. And that’s why we say you serve the person you once were. And so you need to know that because nobody cares about the customers don’t care about the credentials they care about. Can you help them? And if you’ve been through it personally, then you can help them.

And that makes you really, really qualified. Now what I would lean into if I don’t have the formal credentials, there’s two things we always encourage people we teach this in our expert bio lesson inside of phase one, course one, finding your brand DNA expert bio, names and numbers, names of people you know, names or names of people that you’ve helped names of organizations you’ve worked with. So so names of customers, if you can use any type of recognizable name.

of a university you went to media outlets you’ve been featured in stages that you’ve spoken on specific names of organizations or people that you’ve been associated with. You’re drafting off the credibility of those names, make sure they’re legit and you’re not lying and making stuff up. But the other one is numbers. And this one is specific for people who lack formal credentials is maybe you didn’t go to a fancy named college, maybe you haven’t worked for a fancy named company, maybe you don’t have fancy named clients. But if you’re a real expert, you have numbers.

What numbers am I talking about? Numbers that quantify how many years you’ve been studying this. How many people have you helped? How many hours have you put into it? How many articles have you done? How many people, clients have you helped? Names and numbers, I would really lean into that for that person.

AJ (24:22)
Okay, I love that. I’m gonna give an alternate. Love all of that. I would say the alternate to that is to lean in heavily into your story. I would double down on my story and targeting to the bullseye, to like that little tiny red dot in the bullseye of who am I going after?

Rory (24:33)
Yeah.

AJ (24:47)
And as you were talking, it made me think about how we hired our executive life coach.

And I kind of owned the task of doing all the interviews. And I was looking at all different types of different organizations who are very well known, who had well credentialed executive coaches, life coaches. And one of the things that I kept finding in all of that is like, man, they just seem like they all have it too together. And I was in a place in our business where I’m like, I don’t, I know I won’t show up authentically talking to someone.

who their entire story is, I’ve done it right every step of the way. And I was like, I probably went through six or seven different like, you know, sample calls, sample interviews with all these different companies. I was like, I was like, they’re, they’re, they’re too good. They’ve never, they’ve never fallen off the pedestal. And the reason that we picked our executive coach is because he was so authentic with his story of how he was at this certain position, made some choices.

really fell from graces, ⁓ lost a lot, had to go rebuild ⁓ and reset it. And he’s like, I’ve been through the fire and I know how to help you get to their side. And it was like, no, I need someone who’s been through the fire. I want someone who’s was here and then here and then came back here. Like I need someone who’s walked the walk who knows exactly how I feel. Where am I right now? And who’s on the other side. And it wasn’t his credentials.

It wasn’t the numbers or the names. I didn’t care. didn’t even ask. It was like, no, you’ve been exactly where I am and you’re somewhere I want to be. You’re the guy. And so I would lean in heavily to the story of your most powerfully positioned to serve the person you once were. Right. And that’s just knowing what problem you solve. What’s the cause of that? What’s your unique message and how you can get people through it? What are the payoffs and go knowing who you’re going after?

And I just think about how I hired our executive life coach, no names, no numbers, no credentials. I didn’t ask. I just knew the story and I knew what was mine. And so we hired him. So I would just also encourage you to lean into your story, lean into the thing that you’ve been through, lean into the thing that you’ve made it through. You know, what is the challenge that you’ve overcome? Uh, and who’s the person you serve? And that would be the alternate to not to negate what you said, but in addition to that, drive that home.

Rory (27:11)
Yeah. And if you struggle to tell your story and understand your uniqueness, your brand positioning statement, all those things, that’s what we do. So go to freebrandcall.com slash podcast, you can request a call with us for free. We’ll talk you through it. We’ll spend an hour understanding your story and ⁓ knowing where you are and we’ll create a little custom journey for where you can go to take your personal brand next. And part of that may or may not include ⁓ working with us and letting us support you. So check that out freebrandcall.com slash podcast.

AJ (27:16)
So we do.

Rory (27:41)
But I will double down for both categories. for both categories, whether you have the credentials or you don’t, I would actually double tap on what you said about sharing your personal story. double tap, tap, tap. If you ⁓

AJ (27:42)
because of the other category. Let’s hit the other category.

Rory (28:01)
I think this is also a sobering thing for people to realize if you’ve spent so much time and money having the formal credentials, those are not going to connect with people as much as your personal story or even the stories of your clients.

AJ (28:14)
Well, even if the credentials matter, the story is what differentiates you from everyone else who has the same credentials.

Rory (28:21)
It is in the story is what creates connection. And it’s like, what are credentials credentials give you credibility. But the story is what creates connection, connection creates trust and trust must happen before a transaction. So I think the story is really powerful. Honestly, I think that’s something that you and I don’t do enough of is sharing our personal stories and our stories of like,

where we come from and things. I mean, we share a lot of client stories and we dabble in the stories. that’s one thing I’ll speak for myself to say I need to get better at sharing more of my story. And I think I fit in the category of someone’s like, I did get an MBA, I was valedictorian, like, I have done national research studies, I did write a bunch of books like

AJ (29:08)
I disagree with that because I don’t talk about any of my credentials because I don’t have any. I don’t talk about them at all.

Rory (29:16)
Whatever,

There’s a strategy. Just don’t have any credentials, then you won’t have to worry about talking about it. I mean, ultimately, what matters most is talking about your prospects story and your prospects dream and your prospects life.

AJ (29:23)
It saves so much money.

You got

to be relatable to the person that you’re serving and they got to believe that you’re in it for them. And I think that that really matters the motive and that matters. All right, we did talk about this other one. I don’t want to run out of time. So what if you do have the credentials? They’re not they’re not doing the thing for you.

Rory (29:50)
Yeah, you got one of my favorite quotes is from a guy named Larry Wingate. And he said, at the end of the day, business is very simple. You have to have a really good product. And you have to ask a lot of people to buy it. And there’s a really good chance that if you have a lot of credentials, you have a really good product. You know what you’re talking about, you spent your life researching it. There’s also a really good chance you’re not asking enough people to buy it.

And you are probably hiding using research and creation and testing and validation as a advanced form of creative avoidance of not getting out and telling the people about what you do and sharing what you have with the world. And so that’s where you need help. And that’s one particular group that we really specialize in helping is overcoming some of that call reluctance that feels

AJ (30:38)
What’s

one thing that person could start doing today? That’s one thing outside of requesting a call. You’re saying? Yeah, like if they’re kind of hiding behind their credentials and they’re going, yeah, I’ve done all the work. I’ve done all the research. I do have that. Like I am an expert.

Rory (30:44)
to generate more business.

They should be speaking for free everywhere. Everywhere. Like literally think of yourself as chicken on a stick is the metaphor we use at the food court, right? Or at Whole Foods. It’s like people just need to sample you. And you probably are a little bit reluctant to sell. And that’s probably because you’re so used to being successful. The idea of rejection just terrifies you. ⁓ And so one of the ways

to kind of go around that, right? We can talk about going through that at a different time. But one of the ways to temporarily go around that is to go teach what you know for free everywhere, everywhere, podcasts, going live on social, virtual webinars, pre-recorded things, YouTube videos, Instagram, like stop trying to be perfect and just go teach what you know for free. And then tell people, hey, if you want help applying this to your organization or to your individual life, email me and request a call.

Like it is that simple. Not simple, but and there’s an emotional element here that is really hard. really, want to sink in on because again, the more successful you’ve been at school, and these types of things, which there’s a very like black and white do this thing, get this grade, get the, you know, get the degree, get the diploma, whatever. When you get into the human side of entrepreneurship, and sales and rejection,

AJ (31:49)
Not easy.

Rory (32:16)
It’s a very scary place for that person to go.

AJ (32:20)
That’s a good transition

⁓ to our community question, because every episode we take questions that were submitted by our community at Brand Builders Group. They get voted on and we pick one to share an answer on the podcast today. And what you were just saying is very complimentary to the question of today. And we’re going to wrap up with this. So this is from James who says, I have an MBA, 20 years of corporate strategy experience and a real track record of helping companies grow significantly. But I feel invisible on

line compared to coaches with half of my experience and a fraction of my results. I keep thinking I just need to explain my background better but it’s not working. What am I actually doing wrong and how do I flip the switch?

Rory (33:07)
I he says it right here. I think I just need to explain my background better. That’s not why anyone buys, right? Spoken like someone who’s worked really hard and built a real, and I feel for James because this is what it feels like to be a mission-driven messenger, to feel like the world’s best kept secret is like, I’ve paid my dues, why is nobody buying from me? And it’s because honestly-

AJ (33:30)
It’s

even I’ve paid my dues. It’s like I help companies get real results. Like I can help you.

Rory (33:37)
but it’s a little bit self-centered. And that’s the thing you gotta be careful of is how to explain my background better. It’s self-centered. It’s how do you share your story in a way that people relate with it? And how do you ask questions that make other people feel important and where they come to their own realization that you have a method that can help them? I think it’s as simple as that.

AJ (33:58)
Yeah, would just, know, a couple quick quick things to add to that. It’s like, it has nothing to do with you explaining your background better. It’s helping you become an advocate of the problem you solve. Right? If you’ve helped so many companies have monumental success, what was the problem that you saw for them? Like, what was it? What was the problem? Like, because if they have it, so do many other prospects.

So do many other companies. have to become a screaming advocate of the problem that you solve. A lot of people know they have a problem. They’re not often aware of why they have the problem, right? And so that’s what we call the cause, right? There’s a problem, right? A lot of people are aware like, hey, like I’m in financial debt. Like I have a problem. They don’t understand why they’re in debt. It’s because they keep spending when they shouldn’t. Like, why are you doing that? I’m trying to keep up with the Joneses.

I’m comparing myself to everyone else and you you’ve got to identify what that is and then you have to help people know it’s like I cannot only identify your problem. I can tell you why you have that problem and I have solution to fix the problem. So it’s not about your background. It’s like I know the problem. I know why you have it and I know how to solve it. Request a call with me right? So I think it’s less about your background and it’s more about you got problems. I know how to fix them. Let’s talk.

Rory (35:04)
there

And if you feel like James…

that you are the best kept secret and not enough people are buying from you. We know how to fix that problem. We should talk request a call with us free brand call.com slash podcast. In the meantime, if you’re not ready to talk to us just yet, just keep tuning in. Keep tuning in share this episode with other friends and family and other entrepreneurs and executives and other experts that you know, if you think they’ll enjoy it. And if you haven’t yet, please rate and review this podcast wherever you listen to it and come back next time. We’ll see you on the wealthy and well known podcast.

AJ (35:58)
Credentials tell people what you did, but a story tells them why you did

Rory (36:03)
It’s not like anyone is out there going, whoa, certified twice, take my money.

WWK Ep 023: Your Logo Can’t Shake Hands: Why Founders Must Be the Face of the Brand

RORY (00:00)
analogy that I’ve landed on that’s really helped me with this is launching a rocket ship into outer space. And you go when you’re first launching a rocket,

like I think it’s like 80 % of the fuel is used just getting it out of the Earth’s orbit, right? Is this this gravitational thrust. And when you’re launching a company, that’s exactly how it is. It’s like getting it off the ground is so difficult, you have to do everything in your power to get it up.

AJ (00:28)
Ready?

When’s the last time that you bought a service from a company just because of its logo? And then ask yourself this, when’s the last time that you bought from someone that you know, liked and trusted? Here’s the difference between those two questions. We don’t buy from companies. We buy from people. We don’t buy logos and colors and typography and iconography. We buy trust and we…

by reputation. And that’s why for those of you who are hiding behind your company’s logo, thinking that’s what’s gonna help your company grow and you’re putting all your money into branding and advertising and marketing your company, those days are over. We are in the face forward era of why being the face of your company matters. And we’re gonna talk about exactly how to get you from out behind the logo and into the spotlight to help your business grow today.

RORY (01:30)
This is an important lesson for entrepreneurs, a lot of entrepreneurs who do hide behind their logo. And I want to I want to ask you this, right? So as the CEO of Brand Builders Group, you’ve got a lot of things on your plate. You’ve got a lot of things vying for your attention that do have are not the things that have to do with you being a face forward part of our business. Yes. But you also don’t particularly love social media. You also don’t particularly love like online

networking, you also don’t listen to like a ton of podcasts yourself, but yet you prioritize some portion of time inside of your schedule to make sure that your face is a part of everything brand builders group. How do you justify doing that when there’s so many other things that are vying for your attention? And how do you like make that calculation and consideration?

AJ (02:26)
It’s a genuine discipline. Today is a great example. We had time set aside to record podcasts today. This is the last thing that my brain was telling me that I should be spending my time doing. After three and a half hours stuck in front of financials trying to troubleshoot some things for Q1 close, justifying why I should go leave the finance team and disarray.

and come over here and record some content, my logical brain said, that does not make sense. My get it done, type A, task rabbit mentality was not telling me this is where I should be spending my time. The reason though that I do schedule for it and I do make the time for it is because I actually believe

that having an executive face forward presence of the company makes a significant difference and why people choose to buy from us, why people choose to work for us and why people actually choose to stay.

both employees and customers of Brand Builders Group. And if I spent all my time behind the scenes ⁓ working on spreadsheets or putting strategies together and I was never out in front, two things would happen. One, I would lose touch with what our customers, our community actually needed.

I’m not going to learn that in numbers on a spreadsheet. I’m not going to learn that in just the financials. I’ve learned that from being with our customers. I learned that from figuring out what problems they have, what needs they have, what they love, what they don’t want, they want more of what they want less of. And I don’t need to hear it third party. like personally, I like to hear it direct because I don’t have any filtering. The second thing is that if I’m always behind the scenes, I also lose touch with our team.

And they lose touch with me. Both things happen. And so I don’t get to talk to every single team member every single day, but this is a way to multiply my efforts, multiply our thoughts, our beliefs, our values, not just to our team members, which I do hope they listen, but I don’t know if they do. ⁓ but also our community, right? It’s a way of going, Hey, you don’t get to know the behind the scenes, everyday life of me. But when I choose to come out behind all of the

multiple calls and KPI reviews and month in close reviews and all the other things that happen. This is a chance for me to one help make sure that values and beliefs aligned individuals can find us and vice versa, but also team members. Then the benefit for me is that I’m not just looking at data. Data tells one half of a really important business story. People tell the other.

and you gotta have an equal balance of team member input and customer input to balance out the numbers. And that’s why I make time for it even when it’s highly inconvenient, even when timing definitely doesn’t make sense. But it’s like anything, if you don’t schedule it, most likely it won’t happen. And if this wasn’t on the calendar today, I guarantee you.

It would have been the first thing cut from my, just go make some content when you have a break. There would have been no break. There would have been no content. So it’s scheduling and prioritizing the thing that you believe will move the needle.

RORY (06:00)
So how do you, if you’re an entrepreneur and you have been sort of leaning into putting yours to your company brand and hey, I don’t need to be seen, it’s not about me, it’s all about, all that people need to know about is the company. And then whether it’s through our national research study, which if you go to freebrandstudy.com slash podcast, you can download where we talk about the data that proves how important.

it is for an executive to be seen or just through kind of what you’re sharing here or just through intuition that you go, okay, I do buy into that the idea that people don’t buy from businesses or companies they buy from people. And I do I do want to start building my personal brand. How do you separate your personal brand from your business brand? And how do you draw those lines? ⁓ How do you delineate? Like, what do you share personally versus professionally and how much

Do you share of your personal life? ⁓

AJ (06:58)
Okay, those are

a lot of questions. You pick one question. was 36 questions. Pick one.

RORY (07:05)
So how do you start building a personal brand if you’ve been, I’ll say hiding behind, solely behind a company brand? How do you go ahead and start building a personal brand without confusing your customer?

AJ (07:19)
I wouldn’t start with my customers. I would start with my employees. Yes, building a personal brand. I think for most people who’ve been hiding behind their company logo, they’ve been doing the same thing internally within their company. They haven’t been really allowing themselves to be known by their team of employees either.

RORY (07:23)
Building a personal brand. What does that mean?

AJ (07:39)
Right? They come up and they’re like, I’m the boss. I’m the leader. I have to know. I have to have the answer. I have to be the one to have it all together. I don’t think a lot of employers come in and talk a lot about their personal life or their personal beliefs or personal values. I don’t think they’re testing out content or thought leadership with their teams. I don’t think they’d, I think more people have a proclensity to actually record a video and share it with strangers than they do their own friends and family.

I find that to be true in most cases. And I bet if you asked yourself when’s the last time that you had an in-depth conversation with a friend or a family member about what you do versus how much you talk about it on social media, on videos, I think the percentage would be widely skewed towards talking to strangers than friends and family.

RORY (08:30)
So you’re saying that if an owner is not building their personal brand as part of building their business, they’re also probably not sharing much of who they are with their own team member internally. You think that’s usually going to be the case.

AJ (08:43)
I ⁓ almost always. And I would say you start building your personal brand by making sure that you have a personal brand within your own company. We just got off the heels of one of our twice annual speaker showcase events at BBG. And one of our amazing clients, Steven Hoschka, had this amazing quote, which I will be saying for the rest of my business career, which is, culture is the mindset.

of the company. And I think that a lot of companies that lack culture lack a shared mindset because the owner isn’t actually creating a culture that is from their mindset. I think a lot of companies have this culture that they’re like, well, this is what I want the company to be. But sometimes it’s even disconnected from who they are.

And I think that one of the things that entrepreneurs can do to start building their personal brand is just to start actually within the company of like, do my own employees, do my own team members, does my own executive team really know who I am? Do they know how hard it was when I started the company or did they just know the company today? Like, do they really know what I did before I started the company?

Did they know how hard I worked? Did they know why this was important to me? Do they know why I’m still here? Do they know what keeps me up at night? Do they know what my dreams are for the company? Do they know what my dreams are for my role and where my gifts are? Do they know where my challenges are? I don’t think most leaders share that. I definitely don’t think most entrepreneurs are sharing that. And I think the first place to start is you’ve got to build a personal brand within your company, your team members, your employees.

need to know who you are first. And I think that’s a great place to one. Well, one, it’s easier because you have a captive audience, right? You can schedule a team meeting and like, I got a keynote right here. Like you got a captive audience scheduling an all company meeting. ⁓ You already have a captive audience. It’s like, why not start with being like, hey, I’m going to start my very first newsletter just to my own company.

RORY (10:56)
help me understand, okay, if I’m an owner, how do I even think about what’s the difference between a personal brand and a company brand? Like, I understand my company brand, I have a logo, it’s my business. How would I, how do I define a personal brand? Because my identity is probably connected in many ways to the company I’ve built. you know,

AJ (11:19)
Well, I we say this all the time, right? The definition of a personal brand is the formalization, digitization and monetization of your reputation, right? So your personal brand is just the. Formulized reputation that you want to have, right? A simpler way of saying that is your personal brand is what people think about when they think of you. And I think the reason I would say the best place to start for entrepreneurs is within your own company is ask yourself or even ask your

team. What do you think about when you think of me? Again, you have a captive audience where you can make people respond and be like, does that actually align with how I want to be known? I think that’s a first gauge, a first point of going like, hey, if I really want to do this externally, I have to start internally. It’s got to be known with the people that I spend most of my time with in order for me to help get it known by a whole bunch of other people. So I think part of it, it’s like personal brand is just

Are you known for the thing that you want to be known for? What do people think of when they think of you? A company brand, and I say this all the time, it’s like a company is just a collection of other people, right? But how many times have you bought from a company and you’ve had an incredibly inconsistent experience just simply based on who you worked with? Sure. Right?

And therein lies what Stephen was talking about with culture is the mindset of the company and mindset is a shared set of values that starts top down. Right. But I think a lot of times we don’t do that. We want other people to do it.

And it’s like, that’s a great way to start. But I also just find it’s like, it’s a great way to test content and share things and see what resonates and make sure this is the thing that I want to go take public to make sure that it does have a connection point to my company. And the difference of a company and your personal brand, we think about an entrepreneur is your company is just the business model of your personal brand. It’s not a completely different thing that you’re going off and building. And I think that’s where people get really confused and they get it wrong. If you take

Either you or myself, we both have independent personal brands, right? Of course we do. We have our own reputations. We have our own messages, our own life experiences, our own life stories, but our business model is the same, which is brand builders group. My personal brand’s connection to brand builders group is that it is my business model. So my personal brand, regardless of what I’m talking about, is just helping generate awareness to brand builders group.

RORY (13:53)
a

lot of executives, particularly at large companies, assume that if someone’s building their personal brand, they equate that to like their moonlighting. It’s a separate, it’s a side job. It’s a different thing.

AJ (14:04)
PNB, but it doesn’t have

RORY (14:06)
And it certainly can be which can be can be an issue. But if they’re just directing all of that attention and awareness back to the company, it’s like each person is a billboard for the company, each person is 100 % is an advertisement for the company, like they’re out there in the community, which is like, well, they should be that anyways, to their friends and family. It’s like, people ask, where do you work? What do you do? And it’s like, that is an opportunity for every

team member to be a contributor to lead generation and marketing for

AJ (14:35)
It’s

like every person’s bio has what their role is and where they work. Like, I mean, it is a walking billboard. I say this all the time. It’s like, no one ever has ever hired a company to be on a podcast. Companies don’t speak on podcasts. Human beings do. No one ever has booked a company to be featured in media.

It’s the owner of the company, the founder of the company, the executive of the company. No one has ever hired a company to come speak on their stage. They hire people from companies to come speak on those stages. And so I think that’s a huge part of what we need to recognize is a company isn’t hired to sit on a panel. A company doesn’t get the community service award. Those are people, right? And people make up companies. And so for entrepreneurs,

Really what you have to think about is like, are the walking advertisement for your company, for your mission, for your values, for what you believe in, for your customers, for the service, for your team. You are the walking marketing campaign.

RORY (15:40)
Same, same for a nonprofit, church like.

AJ (15:42)
All of

You have got to be the thing that is just, you know, bubbling over ⁓ with everything that is your company. And your company also needs to be a reflection of you, right? Like you got into it for a reason, right? There’s got to be a connection of what you do and who you are. ⁓ And a lot of that has to do with like, there’s some sort of belief that you have, ⁓ a customer segment that you want to serve, a service that you just deeply believe that matters.

in the world and you just got to find that connection and become a massive advocate for it. And I believe that’s how entrepreneurs build their personal brands that thus help their companies grow.

RORY (16:26)
What would you say to an executive who’s who is just a little bit nervous about being on camera and being on stages and being out in front of people? So if they buy into this idea of like, yeah, I think me broadcasting more of my personal convictions around why we do what we do and who we want to be could be valuable for the company in many different ways. But I don’t love being the center of attention. I don’t feel comfortable on camera. I don’t really like even speaking on stages like

Do you think it’s so valuable they should get over that or like what would you be advice to that?

AJ (17:01)
I think there’s workarounds for every single one of those. Another reason why I say start with your own internal team first. ⁓ A part of that is practice. part of that is ⁓ anything that you do for the first time is a little awkward, uncomfortable, and scary. It only gets less awkward, less scary, less uncomfortable the more you do it. And yeah, you probably won’t be good at any of it the first time you do it. Who’s good at anything the very first time? First podcast probably won’t be as good as the 100th. First time speaking, it’s not going to be as good as the 100th.

that’s just the process of doing it. But I think the thing that I have found most people think is they have pigeonholed what it means to be in media, be on a podcast, going out and being a representative in the community. And it’s like, if you’re like, I have stage fright, I can’t speak on stages, well, then be a panelist, right? Be on a panel and just let people ask you questions. I have found most people can do that exceptionally well, if it’s in their industry, if it’s in their space.

They have massive expertise, but the idea of standing on stage by themselves talking to a big audience, but find your work around. How about doing a Q and a, how about being on a panel? So same thing.

RORY (18:12)
think it’s powerful for an executive to do anything where they’re having to overcome fear because it’s like it’s a communication to your team like I’m learning new things, I’m struggling with new things, I’m dealing with change.

AJ (18:26)
But I do think it’s a it’s a leader goes first mentality. If I’m asking my sales team to get out there and show up and knock on doors, then I got to be willing to do that. If I want my team to go out there and generate leads, then I got to be willing to do that. That doesn’t mean that’s 100 % of my time and focus, but I got to be willing. Be like, you know, project Maverick. We talk about that a lot. Like I love Top Gun Maverick. And when Tom Cruise at the very end of the movies, like I got to jump in the jet and show these other pilots that it came

be done. I have to prove it. I have to go first to show them this can be done. We as entrepreneurs get the opportunity to do that for our teams but also for our customers.

RORY (19:08)
What about ⁓ here’s a viable concern that I think entrepreneurs sometimes have and I don’t know that I have a great answer for this and I’m curious to hear what you would say. The valuation of a company, one of the things that drives down the valuation of a company is if a company is dependent on the founder, the more dependent on the founder, the less valuable the company is. And so they equate, if I build a personal brand to help grow the business, then that

ties the valuation of the company more to me and I want that to be separate. Do you think that’s true? If so, why or why not? And how would you how would you think about that? And then and I’ll share I have an analogy for this that I’ve kind of come around to over the years.

AJ (19:52)
You know, I would say the realness of that is the fact that anyone who is going to be buying your company is most likely going to keep you on board for one to three years for that exact same reason. They know how valuable you are and it’s why they retain you as a part of the contract.

It’s like, then there’s a phasing out. There is a filtering out. I know very few exits where the owner sold and was like, I’m out 24 hours later. There is a phasing out because there is trust and value that has to be transferred. And the trust transfer happens because you transfer the trust as the owner.

And so I’d say one, that’s just a big nonsensical thing of like, well, you’re going to be retained anyways to ensure all things go aligned. Otherwise all your employees would bail, all your customers would bail. So you’re going to be retained anyways. There’s going to be a phasing out naturally. But the other thing I would say is like, that would only be a concern if you’re trying to scale something to sell it, right? And if that’s the only thing you’re doing, it’s like, well, guess what? The quickest way to scale it is to build trust.

And so I would say one is like, doesn’t matter how you cut that pie. It doesn’t really make sense when you talk about what’s really going to happen in an exit.

RORY (21:09)
Yeah, I think you go…

whether you build a personal brand or not, if someone’s buying your company, it’s because the value you’ve created, which is largely because of you. That’s right. And the faster you can grow a company, the more valuable it is. And if a personal brand is something that’s going to accelerate the growth of that company, then you should do anything you can do. Anything you can do to speed up the growth of the company is a good idea. The analogy that I’ve landed on that’s really helped me with this is launching a rocket ship into outer space. And you go when you’re first launching a rocket,

like I think it’s like 80 % of the fuel is used just getting it out of the Earth’s orbit, right? Is this this gravitational thrust. And when you’re launching a company, that’s exactly how it is. It’s like getting it off the ground is so difficult, you have to do everything in your power to get it up. And so you have these rocket boosters that are on the side to launch it into outer space. And then once you clear the Earth’s orbit, those boosters kind of fall off and go away. And so what I would say is like, man,

When you’re launching a company, you have to do everything in your power to make it succeed, anything that will help you grow, survive, thrive, sustain, it’s like you must do it. And so if your personal brand is that and the data suggests very strongly and clearly that it is that you should be using that to grow it.

And then, you know, if there’s an exit on the horizon, or you reach a certain point where you’re starting to think about that, it’s like, okay, then maybe you could think about like, kind of breaking that off. ⁓ But I think you’re on it too, which is if if you sell the company, no matter if you have a personal brand or not, they’re still going to have that issue. So what difference does it make? It doesn’t. And even if you keep the company,

You know a company we’re selling looks a lot like a company worth keeping we say that a lot is to go at some point you need to make sure the business is going to operate without you right but here you and I are going we’re going to use our personal brands to grow this company and get it going and Maybe one day it could survive completely without us. That would be a good thing That would be a healthy thing, but there’s no reason not to like increase the viability of success for everybody by by doing it so

Either way, think it’s like, think that’s mostly just an excuse.

AJ (23:27)
I think there’s a couple of things that I would just encourage entrepreneurs, small business owners to remember is like building a personal brand ⁓ has four amazing components to it that will actually help your company. The first one is it helps with customer acquisition. Then it helps with customer retention. Then it helps with employee acquisition. And it helps with employee retention.

And those are four big components that people just don’t think about. They don’t talk about. And those are four things that a founder.

an entrepreneur should be doing no matter what phase of your business that you’re in, helping acquire customers, retain customers, acquire employees, retain employees. It doesn’t have to be your full-time gig, but it is a part of your gig as the business owner, and building a personal brand helps you multiply and expedite those efforts. It really is about accelerating trust, and the amount of customers that learn about you,

from a panel that you sat on, that doesn’t mean they’re going to run to your company website and buy from you. But they’re like, man, when I need that, I’m going to retain this little bit of information that I heard, or I saw, or I witnessed. Or when your employees start talking about, this is the type of person that runs our company. That matters when I’m

hard things come or hard times come or you need employees, then you put your employee force out there for you to help recruit. Same thing happens with your customer first. When you have a really aligned customer base, they help build more aligned customers. But that only happens when you’re attracting people that

share the same values and beliefs that you do. How can you attract those people? They know that you have them. How do they know you have them? You tell them.

RORY (25:22)
Yep, absolutely. ⁓ Well, I think that’s an important conversation for entrepreneurs and executives to understand. it’s just like, man, in the world today, it’s like whatever you can do to drive revenue. And beyond the data of this, right? So again, if you go to freebrandstudy.com slash podcast, you can download our national research study of ⁓

we invested over $100,000 into this PhD led study to answer some of these questions about how much does it influence, how much does the personal brand of an executive influence the average person’s decision to buy from you, recommend you, work for you, vote for you, hire you, date you, all of the things. But even just common sense is to go, would you rather work for a company

where you knew nothing about any of the people who worked there in senior leadership, or where you felt like you knew the executives of the company you were going to work for.

AJ (26:18)
think of just one teeny tiny story that happened just a couple of weeks ago. ⁓ We were in a finance meeting and I kind of sit as CFO at the current moment of Brand Builders Group and our bookkeeper was asking me as we were hanging up the phone, she goes, how’d you get into being an entrepreneur? And she was like, it just feels like.

You know, you’re a mom, you have two kids, like this is a lot. And I laughed and I said, it’s in my blood. She goes, what do you mean? I thought, oh, I’m a third generation entrepreneur. And she goes, how so? And I said, oh, my grandfather started a company and his wife was his business partner. And then my dad bought out my grandfather and my mom was his business partner. So being business partners with my spouse and running a business is the only thing I’ve ever known. I grew up with all our aunts and uncles

being the employees of my dad’s business and Christmas parties and birthday parties were mixed of company team members and family members and friends. It’s like it’s all I’ve ever known. I don’t even know how to do it any other way. And she laughed and she was like, wow.

That’s so helpful for me to know about you. She goes, that actually makes so many things, makes so much more sense right now, and the way that you choose to run things here. And I was like, yeah. And she goes, I’m so glad that we had that 10 minute chat. And I think a part of it is that’s never come out publicly.

I don’t promote that, but that one little conversation was so helpful for her to go, I just needed to know who you were. I just needed to know where you came from so I can relate to these, you know, conversations where you have such a strong conviction on how it should be. And I’m like, well, that’s because I was raised in this. It’s the only way I know how to do it.

RORY (28:09)
And had you not married such a pretty boy mama’s boy, maybe we’d be in a construction business together. But since you married me, personal brand strategy it is, ladies and gentlemen.

AJ (28:18)
But

it starts, building a personal brand really does start with one-on-one conversations just like that. I love that. No, regardless. Regardless of how, but it’s like those little stories do matter. Helping people get to know you, it matters.

RORY (28:26)
your story.

All right, that’s a good on the topic of community and community questions. This is something that we do on every segment we give our members, our monthly members who are in our program, a chance to ask questions and basically vote them up on what they would like us to answer here on the show. So this question comes from Kevin. He says, I’ve been running a successful accounting firm for 11 years. My company has a strong local reputation, but I want to expand nationally and attract higher end clients.

Everyone keeps telling me I need a personal brand, but I’m genuinely not sure how to separate me from the firm without confusing my current clients or undercutting the business I’ve built. How do I build both at the same time without one hurting the other?

AJ (29:21)
Well, I would start with ⁓ making sure that as you’re building your personal brand, you have a direct connection that the purpose of that is to generate leads for the accounting firm. That’s how you don’t undercut it. It’s like, no, I am going to build my personal brand as the founder of this accounting firm.

And a part of that is, you know, we talk about this all the time, is your most powerfully position to serve the person you once were, right? So what audiences are you speaking to? Hopefully they’d be in the space where you can help people who have accounting needs, right? Because that’s what you’ve been doing. You’ve been serving businesses who rather need fractional support or tax support or whatever it is you’re doing, but it’s like your personal brand.

I think a lot of people get confused with, I have to go start a new business. I have to launch some sort of product or a book. No, you don’t. Most people build their personal brands with intentionality to simply drive leads to their existing business. The second thing people get mistaken all the time is, I have to go build some new audience. No, you don’t.

That’s the hardest, silliest. Don’t do that thing, I can tell you. It’s like, no, you build a personal brand and you start sharing the message with the audience you already have, which are all the clients and all the prospective clients that you’re currently serving. That’s how you go and reach more. That’s how you go from a local brand to a national brand without undercutting either thing.

RORY (30:45)
Yep, I 100 % agree. think the big misconception here you touched on it is that people

inappropriately equate the term personal brand with a business model or a new revenue stream. They go, they, this is inaccurate, but this is what they think. If I’m going to start my personal brand, I need to start making money as a speaker, as a podcaster, as a book writer, as a course creator, as a membership, blah, blah, No, you don’t. In fact, the fastest path to cash is to use your personal brand as a lead generator for your current business.

the most simple, most common, most profitable, and the highest percentage of our clients are just simply using their personal brand as an accelerator for their current business. It’s less like they’re starting a new company, and it’s more like they’re launching a new marketing initiative that funnels into their existing business, a super high powered marketing initiative, which is the personal brand of the founder or executives, multiple executives feeding into

the business. so that’s just a common misconception that people have that leads them astray. And and so I think use your personal brand, talk about what you do, talk about what you believe, talk about your expertise, there is no difference.

AJ (32:02)
and talk about it to the audience, that would be your prospective clients.

RORY (32:06)
Right. And drive, you know, so it’s like, this is not two different things. You shouldn’t be confusing anybody. This is a very aligned like use your personality to drive to drive more revenue and leads into your current business.

Other than that, if you’re like really trying to start a separate business, I wouldn’t call that building a personal brand, I would call that starting a separate business. So I think executives and entrepreneurs should think of it less as like, oh, I’m starting a new business like a personal brand as a business. And you should just think of it as more of I’m using my personality to grow my existing business. Maybe that will help you make the distinction sharper and clearer. So that’s a great question from Kevin, a common one.

AJ (32:51)
Yeah, and I would just encourage for anyone who’s out there listening that you’re an entrepreneur, you’re a small business owner, and you’re going, okay, I’ve heard people say this enough times, I’ve thought it about enough times, maybe I really should explore this, then I would really encourage you to schedule a call with our team and you can go to freebrandcall.com forward slash podcast and request a one hour strategy call to talk about how do I build my personal brand to help grow my business. And that is how it can really help

you as an entrepreneur is to generate leads to funnel them to your existing business so you can grow and scale it. So freebrandcall.com forward slash podcast grab a call and let us help you explore.

RORY (33:33)
And if you know an entrepreneur that is out there who needs to do a better job of building their personal brand or who could have more potential growth for their company, share this episode with them. ⁓ Give us a ⁓ like, a subscribe, comment, review this podcast wherever you’re watching or listening to it. We’re so grateful for you. We’ll catch you next time on the Wealthy and Well-Known Podcast.

AJ (33:55)
Look guys, your logo cannot shake a hand.

RORY (33:59)
We’re not saying your logo is bad. It’s just emotionally unavailable.

WWK Ep 022: Followers Don’t Pay the Bills: The Real Formula for Wealthy & Well Known Brands 

RORY (00:00)
A creator’s favorite form of creative avoidance is creating. A creator’s favorite form of creative avoidance is creating. They love to create, create, create, create, and they never tell anyone they exist. And if you’re not willing to go chase and you’re not willing to talk about, if you don’t care so passionately about your calling that you’re not going to share it with anyone, like you’re going to struggle.

What if all of the personal brands that you follow, the ones that seem to be building and growing effortlessly, the ones that are landing the big stages and the big speaking engagements, the big book deals, getting lots of followers, growing their online presence, what if there was a formula that they were following? Well, here’s the thing, they are.

Almost all of them. are very similar patterns and we’re going to talk about them today. Whether those creators know that they’re doing it or not. There are several identifiable, duplicatable systems and formulas that any personal brand can apply. And that’s what we’re here to pull the curtain back on and expose and share with you today. Welcome to the Wealthy and Well-Known Podcast. I’m joined by my wife, business partner, best friend, ⁓ and the CEO of Brand Builders Group, AJ Vadant.

AJ (01:14)
All right, so here’s the first question of the day that we’re going to talk about. What makes a personal brand go viral? And is there a formula that you can actually follow?

RORY (01:27)
Yeah, so I would say that the formula for going viral is watching the formulas that go viral. So basically when you see a video go viral, what we’re seeing today is that right now creators are watching the hook structures, the formats and the patterns that when a video goes viral, it’s because of the structure of the video and the format of the video as much as the framework of the video, right?

It’s not just what you’re saying. It’s not just what you’re teaching. It’s more about how you’re presenting that idea, how you reveal it, how you ⁓ unroll it, and even how you edit the video. So what’s happening is people are seeing a video go viral and then they’re just replicating those formulas.

AJ (02:18)
Let’s pause

there. Let’s talk about what are some of those formulas.

RORY (02:21)
Yeah, so I mean, there’s there’s hundreds of these hook formulas, right? And people talk about them. But like one that’s really popular right now is, if I had to start over from scratch today, and I wanted to achieve blank, here’s exactly what I would do. Right? That’s a really, a really, a really classic one that’s like going viral right now. Another thing that is going viral right now is ⁓ when people are putting multiple videos on the screen. So it’s like, here’s an example of this, here’s an example of this, here’s an example of

We had a video go massively viral, hundreds of thousands of views, ⁓ thousands and thousands of comments and stuff. And it’s exactly that. Here’s this, here’s this, here’s this, here’s this. And it’s not the quality of the content. It’s not the framework. It’s the format. I’m not sure how I feel about all of this, right? But a lot of, think, what is

important to understand and what we do at brand builders group right is we’re dissecting and understanding a lot of these patterns not just for going viral on video going viral on videos like one of our our least valuable concerns because it’s not necessarily what drives revenue and trust long term but it is a great example of to go everything we do at brand builders group where you go how to become a best-selling author

How do you sell high dollar offers? How do you fill out rooms? How do you speak on the biggest stages? It’s a formula. It’s always a formula. It’s all about pattern recognition. And so I think it’s one of the things you could say, what do you really do at Brand Builders Group is like we identify the patterns, we then reconstruct them in a pragmatic way that anyone can follow. And then we teach them in all these different areas of a business.

AJ (03:59)
So I think what would be really helpful for everyone listening, me included, I think one of the things that a lot of people talk about are the patterns. They talk about the algorithm. They don’t really tell the end user like, go try this, go do this. And I think a part of it is you have to try many things to see what’s gonna click with your audience. But if someone was listening today going, okay, great, give me the three formulas to go and try online, what would they be? So I think you listed two of them, right?

if I had to start all over I would do this. Yeah. The second one would be multiple screens of going like give people the images of multiple things that you’re showing all at the same time.

RORY (04:41)
So the real answer to your question is the one thing that I would do is I would follow the top creators in your space. I would look at which of their videos are over indexing, meaning they have way more views than they had followers, right? So this is an important thing is to go, if a video has 100,000 views, is that an over indexing video? And the answer is, it depends on how many followers they have. If you have 5 million followers in your video, got 100,000 views, not so much.

5000 followers and you got 100,000 views. That is a rich, there’s a rich idea, there’s a rich format, there’s a rich opportunity there. So the the, the formula, it’s not the best thing is not for me to just give you a formula. It’s different in every space. The the granular overarching formula is follow the top creators, pay attention to what’s working for them, and then replicate your own version of that.

And that is particularly in the space of viral online video, we’re talking carousel, well, not even video, but just carousel posts, reels, YouTube, you’re going to see if you watch closely all the top creators, that is what they are doing. And it’s a fascinating study because it tells you that the psychology

is very consistent of the human brain and very repeatable. And so you can go I can watch what a fitness trainer did to go viral. And mostly what we’re copying is the hook structure the first three seconds. Now when we teach what is a hook, a hook is anything you do or say in the first three seconds to get people to keep watching. That’s how we define it because I’ve never seen anyone define it. Right. So that’s how we define it.

And a great one example of a hook structure that we teach is the I want blank test is to say how would your viewer answer the question I want blank and then tell them in this video, I’m going to teach you and fill in whatever however they would answer the I want blank. That would be a generic hook structure that works really well that if you don’t want to do all this other stuff, you go, just use the I want blank test. But now people are even using AI to track all of these patterns and go,

this woman hosts a cooking show and she said, you know, here’s five things I would have learned, I wish I knew when I first started cooking. And you take out the word cooking, but here’s five things I wish I learned when I first started speaking. And then that’s it. So the psychological structures, it’s about the pattern is noticing the pattern.

AJ (07:15)
So I think one of the things that would be helpful is to talk about what are some of the other formulas, right? So you’ve got a format formula, which is kind of what you’ve been talking about and the different types of format. Would you say that there’s any specific formulas to follow when it comes to duration or any way to end the video, captions or some other, are there some other formulas that we should talk about that would be helpful for anyone listening today?

RORY (07:41)
⁓ There’s one other very advanced thing that I would share that I think is universal enough to everybody listening and that is that if you have four parts in a video, okay, so say you have four points, it’s a YouTube video and there’s four points. Point number one should be shorter than point number two. Point number two should be shorter than point number three. Point number three should be shorter than point number four, meaning

When people feel like they’re making progress early, they’re more likely to stay. If they feel like it’s dragging on, they tend to leave. But if you go, okay, you hook them in the first three seconds, and then what you’re seeing in a lot of these other YouTube videos is hooks within the video. So the most important hook is the opening hook. But then you say, hey, you mentioned something like, there’s three ways to create

You know, there’s three patterns that every creator needs to know to go viral. And the first one’s right now. And I’ll tell you the second one in a sec in just a minute. That is a hook inside of a hook. It’s going I’ll tell you the second one in a second. I’ve just told them about something else that is about to come. And that’s what kind of the definition of a hook is. So that is another sort of psychological pattern that we’re seeing pretty consistently is this idea that you’ve got

shorter points earlier in the video. There’s something going on that when people feel like they’re making progress, like if you can get them through the first few chapters, then they’re likely to stay longer. And then they give you more permission to give you more of their time basically as time goes on.

AJ (09:21)
What about anything in your opinion with reels versus stories versus carousels versus all the other things when you think about different formulas patterns and formats?

RORY (09:34)
Yeah, I mean, another carousel thing that’s going viral, and by the way, I would not consider myself an expert on this. This is not where we spend a lot of our time, which is what I think we can get to is to go, a good question is to go, why don’t we spend more of our time studying this stuff? And because this, lot of this stuff to me points more to vanity metrics than it does to profitability. But inside of this area, which we do spend some time studying, another really common

thing that’s performing really well right now is your backstory. Like your personal story. People are tuning in to where did you start and if it’s a carousel post, it’s like pictures, right? So I’m working on one of these right now where it’s like I’m taking pictures from all of these different areas of my life, where the picture is worth a thousand words. And it says, here’s where I started. Here’s what I wanted to do. Here’s where I struggled.

This is what was low. This is what I did. This is what I learned. Here’s what happened. And now I can teach you comment blah, blah, blah below for the opt in those personal stories are performing super well right now. I think about that’s a great carousel post formula.

And I think the other thing that is performing well, you know, lot of people will say you don’t sell on your feed, you sell in your stories. That’s where and really we say the dollars are in the DMS. That’s really where sales happens. But like even lead generation happens more in the stories. So you attract them with the content on your feed, you nurture them inside of your stories and you convert them in your DMS or on a free call. But inside stories is a lot of where customer testimonials are being shared. That’s another really common thing of going you need one

thousand customer testimonials, and you post a couple every day inside the stories. Because when people find you from your feed content, they go, wow, this was valuable, who is this person? And then they follow you closely, they go in your stories, and then they’re seeing, whoa, you’ve helped this person get a result, and this person helped them get a result, and this person helped get a result. And now I’m interested in engaging in potentially buying.

AJ (11:42)
So for the

person who’s listening going, that feels like a lot of work. I felt like a lot to do. Uh, how, what do I, what, do you want me to do here? I have a, I have a full-time gig. I have a full-time job. Like who’s supposed to film me? Who’s supposed to edit all this? Who’s supposed to know all these formulas? Who’s supposed to know all these formats? What would you say to that?

RORY (12:02)
I would say yeah, you’re right. It’s a lot of work. Like there’s no free lunch as grandma used to say, right? Like everything that looks effortless is not effortless. So there is a whole lot of people getting sold a bunch of garbage because on the surface it’s like, ⁓ you know, I’m a stay at home. I’m a mom of four and I run my own business and I do it all through Instagram and AI comment this below and sign up for my webinar. And then they’ll buy something that’s just like

garbage because the reality is this is someone who is working 12 hours a day or they have a team or they’re spending a bunch of money on ads or like it’s like there there is their excellence is never an accident. It’s never an accident.

AJ (12:46)
I would say even that it’s not even excellence. It’s like even the effort and all of this is not to be taken lightly to come up with the content to learn the formulas to just even follow the other top creators in your space. All of that is an extraordinarily large commitment of time, energy, money and resources. If this is what you’re really trying to do. And I think that’s one of the things I just kind of wanted to highlight is

And I love the idea of like, yes, follow the top people in your field and then realize as you’re following them, they have a team. Like they have someone following them. ⁓ They have video editors, they have graphic designers. Like that is, it’s not apples to apples.

RORY (13:31)
So I would love to talk about this question. How do I know if my personal brand is actually working? What metrics should I actually be tracking? So if we’re saying like, look, I can show you a list of people who’ve gone viral who struggle to pay their bills. And I can show you a list of people who you’ve never seen a video of theirs online and they fly in private jets. And it’s just ironic the world that we live in is there’s a whole lot of like, you know, drawn to the vanity stuff.

And so I think this is topic that we should talk about is what are the metrics that I should be tracking? What are the actual measurable KPIs that are going to lead to dollars?

AJ (14:13)
Well, ironically, none of those, in my opinion, would be found on social media. In my books, the actual metrics would be number of calls being generated and run, which could come from social media, but those are a lot harder to come by.

RORY (14:31)
But we would

rather have a video with a hundred views that drove five free calls than a video with 50,000 views that drove no free calls.

AJ (14:39)
all day long, every day. It would be the number of clients being converted. It would be number of clients that are retaining. It’d be the number of referrals being sent by clients because then it’s like proof that your work is actually working. would count client testimonials as a KPI because it’s proof of what’s working. Number of presentations that you’re giving and presentations could be keynotes on stages, workshops in your local community,

podcast interviews, it’s whatever you’re doing to get your message out into the world. ⁓ Those would be the actual metrics that I would be looking at. It’s like how many calls are being generated, calls being run, clients being converted, clients being retained, referrals being sent. And then on top of that, it would be like, what are all the other things you’re doing to generate the calls, which are your presentations?

RORY (15:12)
going on.

Yeah, it’s funny, I literally just got off of a live training with our members. And I was we were talking about the success tracker. So this tool that we created that tracks basically the eight core metrics that every personal brand needs to drive for behavior, and then the four results that they measure. it’s it’s like, how many emails have you added to your list? So that that’s to me is like, the most digital thing to care about is like, how many email subscribers, but even that is super misleading, because it’s like,

AJ (15:55)
emails.

RORY (16:04)
you can add free emails all day from all over the place that like have nothing to do with the people that are actually going to do business with you. But that is a first metric. Sure. As going emails, then you know how many phone numbers you collect, how many free calls requested, how many free calls ran. And then it is presentations given referrals given referrals earned. And it’s like if you do those things, and you focus on you know, how many media pitches have you sent?

those things will lead to actual money. It’s you getting in front of humans in more of an offline way or more of a longer form content way. I will say that I am being drawn more to YouTube is going.

I think, you know, YouTube is really a place where trust can transfer because it’s long form content, right? And, and, you know, there was a study, I believe it was from Google that came out that said seven hours, people need to spend seven hours online with you before they actually would be willing to like, making an investment. And you know, in the world of YouTube, that might be like 10 to 14 videos in the world of reels. It’s like, it’s pretty much impossible to get to seven hours. mean,

AJ (17:14)
I that is one demographic that we should definitely be talking about. To not talk about it would be not fair. But I would just tell you, in my personal opinion, it’s like if someone who I do not go to YouTube or to social media to find experts, it’s like if I’m really looking for someone to hire, if I’m really going after that one, I’m going to ask for referrals from my network. So it’s going to be word of mouth. Or I’m going to read their book. And time-wise,

It’s similar. It’s like the average book is six to seven hours in length. So whether I read it or I listen to the audio, but it’s like, if I’m really going to invest.

thousands of dollars or tens of thousands of dollars. I’m not going to do it just off of social media content or even off of YouTube content. It’s not going to be just off of a podcast interview. It’s because I heard about someone that I, that I trust. Like I trust someone. I heard about someone else. I went then and investigated, found that they had a book or found that they had a free course. I’m tested that. Then I’m going to request a call. Like there’s a series of multiple things that can happen online and offline. But the thing that’s going to expedite all of those

is that someone I trust said, this is who I trust. And that could be…

someone that I already really like, know and trust as a personal friend. It could be someone as a thought leader that I’m an avid follower of and I just align with their content. But that’s gonna be the thing that’s gonna expedite it more than anything else. And those things can happen online and offline. But the first thing I’m gonna do before I invest tens of thousands of dollars, I’m like, do they have a book and I’m gonna go read it?

RORY (18:53)
Yeah, and I think, you know, this is a good question. How do, ⁓ excuse me, what is the difference between personal brand awareness and personal brand authority? And I think that’s part of what you’re talking about, right? Awareness is like, okay, a lot of people see me, but authority means people actually trust you enough to buy from you. And when you look at what are the resources, what are the assets that you can create that create personal brand authority that

actually make people want to buy from you. The number one thing on the list, and this is in our national research studies, is 61 % of Americans say that testimonials from other customers is the most influential marketing asset that you have. The others would be a book, the other is you’re paid to speak on your topic, the other is you’re featured in media for your expertise, right? But when you look at followers, views, likes, all that stuff.

much, much, much lower because you just you can game it, you can fake it, you can buy it. And we all know that and everybody is doing that. And so it’s different where it’s like, that’s why I think people have to spend seven hours with us online before they trust us. They have to spend much longer. Whereas we know that

AJ (19:54)
And we all know that.

longer.

RORY (20:11)
you can do, we often say that the fastest way to take a complete stranger and turn them into a lifelong fan is a world-class one-hour presentation. We know that in an offline environment, the trust happens much, much faster. And so getting in front of humans and even like a live webinar is gonna be ⁓ such a more trust-accelerating experience than just a bunch of kind of like loosely connected videos.

AJ (20:36)
I agree. And I think that’s one of the things that’s really important. Micro content may get you followers. It may get you likes. It might get you shares. I have often found it’s not going to produce revenue.

It’s like it’s a part of a formula. It’s like you’ve got to get them to start engaging with you. Then they have to start following with you. But then at some point you have to move them off the platform and into your email list so that you can then invite them to some longer engagement, a free webinar, a free audio thing, a free, whatever it is. And that relationship has got to continue into longer forms of content.

uh, where there can be a real trust transfer, but that’s not going to happen in 30 to 60 second reels.

RORY (21:20)
Mm Yeah. By the way, so if you’re listening, if you haven’t yet, you can download our audiobook at free brand audiobook.com slash podcast. So wealthy and well known at the New York Times bestseller list last year, we give up. This is why we give our audiobook away for free is it’s like, it’s the fastest way for someone to figure out is brand builders a fit for me? And can they really help me? And do we kind of align philosophically? And that’s why we give it out because we know that if we haven’t met someone face to face, they got to spend some time and they’ll and and so we

give that resource.

AJ (21:51)
And ironically, it’s about seven hours. Seven ⁓ hours.

RORY (21:54)
That’s right.

Okay, here’s another question and then we’ll go to the community question. How do thought leaders consistently get booked, featured, and referenced without chasing opportunities? So, if we’re saying, okay, getting booked to speak on stages, getting cited in the media, ⁓ if those are things that lead to true authority, true trust,

building transaction accelerating authority. How do thought leaders go get booked on those things without chasing opportunities?

AJ (22:29)
I would not necessarily say that thought leaders aren’t chasing opportunities.

RORY (22:34)
I’m gonna say the same. The air is in.

AJ (22:38)
the question.

The errors in the question. like, I’m going, ⁓ no, if you want to be out there, then you are out there selling and promoting yourself. You are marketing of why you should be a trusted resource. You are selling yourself. You are pitching yourself. You are putting yourself out there and making yourself available. This whole idea of they’re not chasing opportunities. And somehow magically people are just emailing them and calling them and DMing them of going, I don’t, know you’ve never reached out to us before, but you know, I randomly found you.

like that’s not not happening. And that’s the best

RORY (23:13)
The best speakers in the world are not sitting at home manifesting speaking gigs. They are out hustling, talking to people, writing books, producing content, building relationships, giving referrals, crushing it on stage, staying late, asking who do you know, sending pitches. Like if you are above chasing opportunities, you’re just never going to find opportunities. And like you might find a few, like a few may find you, but that is not going to be that’s not going to be the key to building your career.

You want this, you have to go chase it. You have to go knock it.

AJ (23:45)
down. But

I do think it’s one of those things like, you know, it’s, we say this all the time, the more you speak, the more you speak. And that’s because the more that you’re putting yourself out there, the more that you’re chasing the opportunities and saying, yes, when it’s right, and it’s aligned and putting yourself in the right opportunities and the right positions to be seen, to be noticed, to be heard, ⁓ then naturally, there is a momentum that starts to build. But again, like anything, when you stop it, the momentum stops too.

So I do think there’s this interesting thing where it’s like, I only have to do this for a little while and then it’s going to catch. And it’s like, well, it could catch for a minute. But I can’t think of anyone that we know who is uber successful in this space doing something that has lasted over the decades that isn’t continually putting effort out there into keeping that engine moving.

RORY (24:38)
Totally.

Even I remember in grad school, there was this this case study about Coca-Cola and they were talking about however many hundreds of millions and billions they spend on advertising every year. I think it was like 80 million dollars a year on advertising. is 20 years ago. But and somebody asked the CEO like, you’re Coca-Cola. You don’t need to advertise. Like, why do you spend 80 million dollars a year in advertising? He’s like, if we didn’t spend 80 million dollars on advertising, it’s like a car. No matter how good a car is, it still needs fuel to run. Like that is the fuel.

This I’m going to say something that’s going to make a lot of people upset, but you heard it here first. A creator’s favorite form of creative avoidance is creating. A creator’s favorite form of creative avoidance is creating. They love to create, create, create, create, and they never tell anyone they exist. And if you’re not willing to go chase and you’re not willing to talk about, if you don’t care so passionately about your calling that you’re not going to share it with anyone, like you’re going to struggle. You’re just going to struggle.

AJ (25:38)
But that

kind of comes back to what we said in the very beginning. It’s like, yeah, it does take a lot of time, energy, resources, and money to even figure out this social media thing. It’s like you do have to chase it, right? It is an engine that requires fuel. It requires your content, your creativity, your constant adjusting and flexing with what the algorithm is doing, what the market is doing. So again, the idea of set it and forget it, that’s just not the world that we’re living in online or offline.

All right, let’s move on to the community question. Yes, so

is one of our favorite parts of the show because we get to take a question that has been voted on by our BBG community. All of the questions were input, the community voted on. This was the top one and that’s what we’re gonna answer today. So here it is. Here’s what’s been selected. It’s from Tiffany. I’ve been posting content consistently for eight months. I have a clear niche.

Decent production quality and I genuinely believe in what I’m teaching. But my growth has flatlined at around 800 followers and I can’t figure out what’s missing. I feel like I’m doing everything the gurus say to do, but something isn’t clicking. What’s the one invisible thing I’m probably not seeing that’s keeping me stuck at this ceiling?

RORY (27:10)
two ways to grow on social media, Tiffany. One is organic, the other is paid. The thing that you’re not seeing is what it actually takes to grow with either of those strategies. To grow organically requires a team or a lot of time, understanding and monitoring viral patterns. You’ve got to study what the other it’s not just what you’re saying. It’s not what you’re saying. It’s how you’re saying it is probably the format. It’s the presentation of it. It’s the structure. It’s the hook.

And as AI takes off, more creators are soaking up more of the attention because they’re spending their time and they’re developing their teams developing tools to ⁓ reproduce those hook structures and those hook patterns. So that’s one thing.

AJ (27:52)
before you move on to the next, because mine is connected to that, it’s the key words in this that stuck out to me is for eight months. And there’s just a part of that where I know we all want it to be done now and eight months might feel like a long time, but it’s not. And eight months is just the beginning. And if you have gone from zero to 800 months,

our 800 followers in eight months, that’s a hundred new followers every month. And if you’re not putting ad spin behind it and you’re like, I’m just doing what I’m figuring out. It’s like, I’d be pretty proud of that. All right. Like that, that’s not what you probably want to hear, but I would just encourage it’s like, if you had said, I’ve been doing this consistently in this way for this long for five years and I’m stuck, I’d be like, okay, there’s a problem, but this is eight months and nothing is going to have monumental explosive success.

in this world at this current state of things with eight months.

RORY (28:48)
Yeah, that’s a good

word. That’s a good word. The other way to grow on social media is paid. And that’s what you’re not seeing. The people who are growing massively are paying for it. They’re not buying fake followers, but they are paying lots of money. I’m talking tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars every month.

to show their content to more people. So they’re hiring expensive crews, they have expensive equipment, they have expensive, they got teams that are doing research, and then they’re building, they’re building teams, and they’re pushing money in the front because they have a business model in the back that pays for it. That’s a part of what we teach people how to do a brand builders group is to go, okay, how do you put

$100,000 in the machine is you can do that as long as you know there’s 250,000 coming out the back end. Now we teach our clients to grow without paid ads, right? That’s not a huge part of our strategy until later later down the road. But that’s the thing that you’re not seeing when people are growing and it looks effortless. One, it’s not effortless. And two, there’s probably a ton of money. And many of the biggest creators, okay, not to expose the secret. Many of the biggest creators are spending

millions of dollars just promoting and boosting and pushing their content in front of more people. And that’s going to continue to happen. And so the future of marketing is not about who has the best content. It’s about who has the most sophisticated system. And if you are someone who wants to learn how to build a more sophisticated system, go to freebrandcall.com slash podcast, you can request a call with our team, we’ll do an intake to see where you’re at and we’ll create a

a custom journey for you of what you need to do to take the next steps to grow your business and also to determine if we might be a fit as a partner to help you in that journey. But it is frustrating and it is discouraging and it’s hard and it’s hard. It’s hard for us. It’s hard for everybody. It’s a dogfight right now.

AJ (30:46)
It’s discouraging when you’re comparing your numbers to someone else’s. And when you’re focused on, I have impacted and I have grown from zero to 800 people who are now absorbing my content, getting value from my content. I am now serving 800 people that I wasn’t eight months ago. It’s not discouraging at all. It’s actually quite encouraging. The only part’s discouraging is when you’re comparing your step one to someone else’s step 1,000. And that’s the hard part about the online world.

Is it so easy to look at everyone else’s doing and think that what you’re doing doesn’t matter? But those 800 people, they do matter. Those aren’t followers. Those are human beings. And I would be encouraged if I were you.

RORY (31:29)
love that. Well, ⁓ if those 800 people were in a room right now, you certainly would be that’s right be fired up and impacting them. So hey, send this episode to somebody that you know that you think might enjoy it. And if you’ve been listening for a while, we’d love for you to rate comment review this show wherever you listen to it. We’re so glad you’re here. Keep coming back. We’re going to encourage you and we’re going to hopefully inspire you and share with you the strategies that are working to help you get your mission out to more people. We’ll catch you next time.

AJ (32:03)
We don’t want you to be invisible.

RORY (32:05)
So hit subscribe.

WWK Ep 021: The Fastest Way to Become a True Thought Leader (Hint: It’s Not More Content) with Jason Dorsey

021_WWK_AUDIO
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Jason: [00:00:00] If you don’t have original research, you are just sharing opinions [00:00:05] and. If you look around these rooms, there’s a ton of people filled with opinions and even great [00:00:10] stories. But if you want people to invest and invest significant money [00:00:15] in you or in your business, you know what you’re trying to offer to them, the problem you’re trying to solve, you need data [00:00:20] to back it up.[00:00:25] [00:00:30] [00:00:35]

Rory: How do you truly stand out as a thought leader in a world of ai? How do you get [00:00:40] yourself featured in the media? How do you get booked to speak on the biggest [00:00:45] stages? Those are all topics that we’re gonna talk about today on this edition of the Wealthy and Well-Known [00:00:50] podcast. I’m being joined by one of my best friends, one of the smartest people [00:00:55] that I know, and also one of the most successful personal brands in the world.

You’re about to meet Jason [00:01:00] Dorsey, who is a bestselling author. His most recent book is Z Economy. He is one of [00:01:05] the highest paid, most booked speakers, particularly in the non-celebrity [00:01:10] category, but as a true thought leader and expert, uh, one of the busiest speakers in the [00:01:15] world today. Uh, he also runs with his wife, the Center for Generational Kinetics, which [00:01:20] is.

Perhaps, at least in my opinion, the most respectable research firm [00:01:25] in the world. We are clients of his and we’re gonna talk about how using [00:01:30] original research is a huge part of the future of building personal brands. Just in the last [00:01:35] week, he has had inbound media requests from, uh, media or. [00:01:40] From media outlets like CNBC, Bloomberg, [00:01:45] CNN.

He’s regularly been featured in the New York Times and several other places. The USA [00:01:50] today, their work appears all over and they work with some of the most respectable corporate clients in the world [00:01:55] to create. Proprietary research, and also, as I mentioned, we have been a client of [00:02:00] theirs and we referred several of our members at Brand Builders Group to do original research studies.[00:02:05]

It’s one of the things that we are inviting our authors at Mission-Driven Press to do, uh, as part of a [00:02:10] regular pub. Let’s just cut that part about MDP. So I’m excited to have [00:02:15] Jason, welcome to the show, buddy. Hey, thank you.

Jason: Thrilled to be here. Thrilled to be a [00:02:20] non-celebrity, busy speaker. I knew you were gonna say something about it.

Yes. Finally I did it. I’m just one tier [00:02:25] below those celebrities.

Rory: Well, I, I, you know, and, and it’s, you know, I say that tongue in cheek, but it’s, it is [00:02:30] true and it’s, and it’s a pride point because you get paid a lot of money [00:02:35] as a speaker and to be in boardrooms and to be on boards and to be an advisor [00:02:40] to companies.

It has nothing to do with your celebrity. I mean, it has something to do with [00:02:45] some of your celebrity, but it has mostly everything to do with your research.

Jason: Mm-hmm. [00:02:50]

Rory: And the original insights that you bring. So I wanna start right there. Tell [00:02:55] us why research

Jason: mm-hmm.

Rory: Is, has been a [00:03:00] critical part of your journey, and why do you think original research is [00:03:05] important for personal brands?

You know, in the future?

Jason: I have a, a [00:03:10] core belief that has driven my work and, and caused all the growth for our business and with our [00:03:15] clientele. And that is if you own the data, you own the conversation. [00:03:20] And it changed my life, changed my career, changed everything about our business, the [00:03:25] opportunities we got, the influence we had, the people we got to meet, the, the work we got to do.

Because [00:03:30] the world right now is full of opinions, tons of opinions, and it’s dominated by opinions and [00:03:35] observation. The problem now is executives and entrepreneurs and [00:03:40] business leaders and people making big bets. Don’t wanna make them based on [00:03:45] opinions and observations.

Rory: Mm.

Jason: They, they already have enough risk in their life and in their business.

[00:03:50] They are trying to ground their decisions, ground their strategy, base their [00:03:55] vision on tangible, real data that they can trust and believe in to [00:04:00] inform and really give them an advantage. And so what that means for us and for our clients [00:04:05] is we’re the people that our competitors cite. Which is amazing. I [00:04:10] have this, this, this core belief that if you are having to cite other people’s data to make your point, [00:04:15] you are not the expert somebody else is.

Now, you may be adding your own perspective to it and [00:04:20] stories and all that. I got it, I got it. But the reality is you want to be the one who cited. And [00:04:25] so for us, when we lead statistically accurate studies, whether that’s nationally or globally, [00:04:30] all of a sudden we’re the source of truth. And I think that’s so important right now in the age of ai.

[00:04:35] It’s easier than ever before to create content on any platform in any way you want. But what you can’t create is [00:04:40] statistically valid research that leaders are looking for to separate myth from [00:04:45] truth. And I mean, you’ve heard me speak a bunch of times at these big events like. I believe it’s [00:04:50] never been more important, like truly a calling to separate myth from truth.

It is so [00:04:55] hard these days to know what’s real and what’s just made up. And when you give people real [00:05:00] data that they can bank on, that they can truly make tough decisions. ’cause remember, [00:05:05] decisions today are high risk. When you think about executives, they’re trying to not only [00:05:10] grow their business, they’re trying to keep their people employed, right?

They’re, they’re trying to deliver sure for customers and shareholders, [00:05:15] but they’re feeling the pressure. Entrepreneurs today, more competition than ever before. Put out a new [00:05:20] book, more books published this year than ever before. So how do you not just stand out? I [00:05:25] think that’s too low of a bar. How are you truly unique and own a space where [00:05:30] you are recognized as the one that’s leading the field, maybe even [00:05:35] inventing a field.

And, and the way I think about that is you wanna have the data. You wanna own the data [00:05:40] that fills in the gaps. It’s not that like, you know, I speak on generations. It’s not [00:05:45] that millennials are entitled, okay, that’s interesting, but not new. Why? What shaped that? [00:05:50] What caused it? Is it actually true? Why are millennials two generations, not one?

Why do [00:05:55] millennials most dislike other millennials in the workforce? Right? These are things that if you can get to the root cause, we’re [00:06:00] like, oh, I never thought about that. I always wondered that. That’s the emotional response [00:06:05] that drives people to wanna work with you because you’re hitting them logically.

Like, okay, that makes total sense. And emotionally [00:06:10] I’ve seen that, or that answers a core question of mine versus here’s another story or [00:06:15] a poem, or, you know, three points for my life. I think people, particularly executives and leaders, [00:06:20] and those in positions of responsibility, they like all that sort of stuff.

There’s a place for it. [00:06:25] But when it comes to big decisions. Challenging times, uncertain economies, more [00:06:30] competition than before. AI’s emergence. They’re looking for research and data they can count on [00:06:35] and it’s, it’s why clients like you and others. Come to us over and over and over again and [00:06:40] all these big fancy bestselling authors who we love working with and celebrities, but so many [00:06:45] corporations use us to do their thought leadership research

Rory: well, and, and that’s [00:06:50] interesting nuance to me that never, I never fully understood.

I mean, it, it took a while [00:06:55] for me to really understand how you use research and I was like, why [00:07:00] would companies. Pay all of this money for you to do research and then they don’t [00:07:05] share the research with other people. Like as a thought leader, I’m going, the whole reason I wanna do a research study is to put it [00:07:10] out to like Yeah.

You know, establish our thought leadership and, and all that. And what you just said is [00:07:15] going, there’s, there’s kind of two ways to use the data. One is that these companies invest a lot of [00:07:20] money for actual. Research and data to make their own internal [00:07:25] strategic decisions.

Jason: Mm-hmm.

Rory: And that’s why it’s like they’re not sharing it, it’s a competitive advantage.

Jason: Mm-hmm.

Rory: But [00:07:30] that also ties into why personal brands need to have data, because that’s [00:07:35] what the big companies, and that’s what, you know, very intellectual, sophisticated [00:07:40] types of, you know, buyers. That’s what they’re looking for and that’s what they’re gonna respond to. [00:07:45] Mm-hmm. Not just, oh, you had a, you had a video.

Go vi, you had a TikTok.

Jason: Mm-hmm.

Rory: Video go [00:07:50] viral.

Jason: Yeah. And, and the way I think about it is in the corporate world, you know, our clients [00:07:55] are banks and healthcare systems and huge tech companies and, you know, you can just go through the [00:08:00] whole long list. And I like to say they, it’s not even 80 20, they probably keep [00:08:05] 90, 95% of the discoveries that we, um.

You know, gain for them [00:08:10] internal and use it to inform their strategy. You know, I speak at all these corporate boards and no recording, like [00:08:15] all this sort of stuff, right? Like this is their competitive advantage. Their competitive intelligence is gonna shape their [00:08:20] strategy for the next five, 10 plus years.

And they’ll share maybe five, max, 10% of the [00:08:25] discoveries because they then want to put out, Hey, we found all these things. This is informing our product [00:08:30] roadmap. This is informing, uh, the way we’re delivering services or pr developing new products or serving our [00:08:35] employees. So they still wanna be known for it.

But they’re gonna keep most of it internal. On the personal brand [00:08:40] side, it’s completely flipped,

Rory: which has also become a, a huge [00:08:45] new pool of people for you. And I wanna understand why has that happen? You know, you used to do. More [00:08:50] corporate where it’s like, it’s more internal. Yeah. Decision making. But now there is, uh, you [00:08:55] know, a rising tide of, of entrepreneurs and personal brands who are coming to you.

So,

Jason: [00:09:00] mm-hmm.

Rory: Why? And and how is that work?

Jason: Well, what happened originally is a lot of people [00:09:05] coming to me going, Jason, how are you in the media all the time?

Rory: Right?

Jason: How are you keynoting these huge conferences? ’cause [00:09:10] it’ll be like me. Some Hall of Fame football player, a former president, you know, and maybe somebody [00:09:15] from McKinsey or some Harvard economist, and they’re like, how are you featured on the main stage and have more time [00:09:20] than any of them.

Yeah. Which happens all the time. And I’m like, ’cause people want insights they can use, they [00:09:25] want data they can’t get anywhere else, so they go. Oh, I got it. I could totally use that. Or that [00:09:30] solves that problem or I never thought about it that way. Or you know, you wanna really fill in these gaps for them.

[00:09:35] And so once I started being on all those stages all around the world, and the beautiful thing about data [00:09:40] is it translates and it travels, it has handles, people take it all over the place. I mean, we do so much [00:09:45] international work, it really opens up markets. So, so that happened. And then all these personal brands who [00:09:50] you and I know are like Jason.

Love you, man, but you’re not huge on Instagram. [00:09:55] You don’t have a big LinkedIn following,

Rory: right?

Jason: You know, you’re not all these things like, how is this happening? I’m like, well, we [00:10:00] have what they can’t get anywhere else, right? And, and because of that, once you’re the [00:10:05] source of truth, everybody wants you. And, and so it started like that.

So then we started working with a few personal [00:10:10] brands and it was like, Hey, you know, we’ll do for you what we’ve done for us. Um, but we need your help. And I think this is a, a [00:10:15] real key. Personal brand research strategy and thought leadership strategy is different than [00:10:20] corporate, right? When it comes to personal brands, we wanna really understand what is the position you’re [00:10:25] seeking to own.

Mm. You want to be the source of truth, you wanna be the one who cited. So [00:10:30] we think about it as like, what are your dream headlines that will come out of your research study? Or [00:10:35] what are the questions that if you knew the answer to everybody would cite you or come to you or hire [00:10:40] you? When you think about like the core markets for the people that, for example, that, that you know, uh, so [00:10:45] many who learned from you.

Entrepreneurs, they love that dramatically grows their business. They make so much money off our [00:10:50] studies, all these personal brands. When you have coaches and consultants and people that are selling professional [00:10:55] services or parts of membership, they love it. ’cause now they have something that’s tangible.

They can turn into all these things, [00:11:00] it’s evergreen, and they’re now the source of truth in something that’s very intangible. So all of a [00:11:05] sudden those sorts of groups released it. Then with authors, what happened is they’re like, oh, well. I went [00:11:10] to go sell the book, Jason, and when I put in there that we were gonna do a national research study, we got all this interest.

We’ve [00:11:15] had so many friends get huge book deals or choose to do their own because they were able to generate so much [00:11:20] business from it. So it’s when you do a study, you get something tangible out of it. That then [00:11:25] drives something tangible. And I think so much today doesn’t do that for people, particularly personal brands.

Rory: Mm-hmm. [00:11:30]

Jason: You know, there’s a lot of hype out there.

Rory: It’s a lot of hype and there’s a lot of, there’s a lot of people [00:11:35] with fancy demo reels ’cause there’s good video editors that can make you look better on stage. There’s a lot of people [00:11:40] with big social media followings. ’cause you can fake that. There’s no shortage of books that are [00:11:45] coming out and, you know, some legitimate bestsellers, some not so legitimate, but get to say [00:11:50] they’re bestseller, whatever.

Yeah. Um, but. It’s interesting because you do, [00:11:55] you do these research, this is what a research report looks like, right.

Jason: For state of Gen [00:12:00] Z.

Rory: This is, this is your internal one. So a lot of times when you put these together for clients, [00:12:05] they, um, you know, this is what a, like a deliverable would be. You would give them data and then they [00:12:10] would turn it into maybe something like this.

Mm-hmm. Is to go one, one thing that’s been [00:12:15] fascinating to me is it took us seven years to write the Wealthy Well-Known book. [00:12:20] Great book. Like to make it a New York Times bestseller.

Jason: Mm-hmm. [00:12:25]

Rory: It took us a few months to work with you to create the trends in personal branding, [00:12:30] national research study.

Jason: Mm-hmm.

Rory: The thought leadership that came from that was [00:12:35] equal to, if not far, greater than having a New York Times bestselling book.

Jason: Mm-hmm. Because. [00:12:40]

Rory: It was fast, it was relevant, like timely. Mm-hmm. And it was [00:12:45] practical. Mm-hmm. Right. And even this is our experience and our frameworks and things, but the numbers are, it’s like the, [00:12:50] it’s like the numbers never lie kind of a thing.

Jason: Mm-hmm.

Rory: So this is something that I [00:12:55] think there’s not enough personal brands thinking about.

Jason: Mm-hmm.

Rory: And going, especially in a world of [00:13:00] artificial. This is a way to stand out big time.

Jason: Yeah. And, and you know, I speak at a [00:13:05] lot of events now for personal brands, which I never did before. I’m having a blast doing it.

And my, [00:13:10] my mission or my calling, and I’m very direct, uh, which is if you don’t have [00:13:15] original research, you are just sharing opinions. And [00:13:20] if you look around these rooms, there’s a ton of people filled with opinions and even great stories. But [00:13:25] if you want people to invest and invest significant money. In you [00:13:30] or in your business or in, in, you know, what you’re trying to offer to them.

The problem you’re trying to solve, like you [00:13:35] need data to back it up. Mm. And people get hung up a lot of times. Like, oh, well Jason, I’m not a [00:13:40] researcher. I’m like, Hey, I got a lot of researchers. I got that part covered. What we need is people [00:13:45] that have a vision of a space they want to own questions that they feel are not [00:13:50] solved, that if we’re solved would, would really drive change.

And they have. And [00:13:55] this is something that, you know, we turn out a lot of people that, that come to us now because I’m like, look, if you don’t really know [00:14:00] your space, doing a study is not gonna change anything for you. If anything, you’re [00:14:05] gonna have an amazing study, but you’re still not gonna have the depth.

But if you’ve been doing this for [00:14:10] several years or many years, and you really have a, a point of view in a position [00:14:15] like a study is, is game changing for you? And you know, for us, like most of the studies we do now are [00:14:20] 60 days or 90 days.

Rory: And as an entrepreneur, you know, approach. You [00:14:25] know, this is a problem we can solve by writing you a check.

Like, I can’t, I can’t solve, I can’t [00:14:30] get someone to write a book for me by writing a check. Like I have to put the sweat equity into the whole, whole thing. [00:14:35] But like, we pretty much just write you a check, have a few conversations, you guys go do all the [00:14:40] work here of like the grunt work of making sure it’s statistically valid, fielding the samples, you know, and then [00:14:45] even analyzing the data and giving back to us like what you found.

Um, by the way, if, if [00:14:50] anyone is listening, if you go to free brand [00:14:55] training.com/research, so free brand training.com/research, [00:15:00] we will connect you directly to Jason and his team if you wanna explore and kind of [00:15:05] think about, okay, does, could a study fit for you? Um, and you do different types of studies that, you know, kind of [00:15:10] meet different budgets and, and different scopes and magnitudes and, and things like that.

Um,

Jason: yeah, [00:15:15] our typical client, the way we think about it today is. They, they’re gonna invest [00:15:20] in this study, the whole study beginning to end about four hours over the [00:15:25] project. And the most important thing is they need a vision, right? What is the space you wanna own? [00:15:30] I would say most people have it, some don’t.

And when they don’t, we’re like, Hey, go figure out these questions. Like [00:15:35] take some time, talk to your advisors, your friends, your family. Mm-hmm. Once you know those come back, we’ll do all the work back. Yeah. And then come [00:15:40] back. But a lot of times people come to us say, Hey, I got a book idea. Can you do a study to inform the book?

[00:15:45] Absolutely. We do that all the time, or I’ve written the book.

Rory: You’re doing that right now for one of our mission driven press [00:15:50] authors, Eric Thomas, et the hip hop preacher, which is interesting because.

Jason: He’s fantastic.

Rory: He’s [00:15:55] fantastic. I

Jason: mean,

Rory: so inspiring. One of the best speakers in the history of the world.

Jason: Yeah.

Rory: One of the biggest social media [00:16:00] followings. AJ and I grew up watching his videos, but like also classically known as a [00:16:05] motivational speaker, even though he’s a PhD.

Jason: Mm-hmm.

Rory: But now this is the first time [00:16:10] ever. Mm-hmm. Where he is. Releasing original [00:16:15] research.

Jason: Mm-hmm.

Rory: Right. Which will be true thought leadership, not just insights and inspiration, which [00:16:20] he’s always done.

Mm-hmm. Very, very well. Yeah. But now even at his level going, yeah, I want, [00:16:25] I want to have that academic substantiation, I want to have that objectivity, I want [00:16:30] that data driven, um, backing to what I’m saying. And that’s, that’s another, another [00:16:35] powerful part of this for personal brands watching is that. [00:16:40] You feel much more like a professional when you’ve done a study.

Mm-hmm. There’s an element just like [00:16:45] when you publish your first book. Yeah. Or just like, you know, you first launched your first website, you’re like, oh, you know, it [00:16:50] starts with a business card. It’s like, oh, I’m official. I have a business card. Oh, now I have a website. And then it’s like, oh, I have a book.

Oh, I have a [00:16:55] bestselling book. This is one of those things where you go like, whoa, even though you [00:17:00] guys did the work, it’s like, this is my research. Yeah. It’s my space, it’s my [00:17:05] questions, it’s my vision. And now I am truly like [00:17:10] the preeminent thought leader. And when AJ and I did the trends in personal branding, national research study, we [00:17:15] included in the book.

Jason: Mm-hmm.

Rory: Uh.

Jason: Well, and y’all got on Good Morning America right away. That’s

Rory: right. Yeah. It was

Jason: [00:17:20] incredible

Rory: At first, the day after we released our research study. Mm-hmm. I mean, we got on Good Morning America. This [00:17:25] is no lie. We put it out there for free and they literally were like, Hey, we [00:17:30] saw your study, can you come on tomorrow?

Um, now we didn’t know it was Good Morning America. It was actually like [00:17:35] some other affiliate and then the interview went so well. Good Morning America picked it up and aired [00:17:40] it. We didn’t even know. And it was just like. Wait, what? Like how many years of doing [00:17:45] 10,000 other things would we try to do and not ever get that?

Jason: Yeah. And people are always like, uh, you know, [00:17:50] ’cause I’ve been on the Today Show, I don’t know how many times, right? All these 60 minutes, 20, like all of these TV [00:17:55] shows, tons of ’em. We were in the cover store in the New York Times and people like, how do you do that? I’m like, look, if, if you [00:18:00] bring journalist data.

They are ecstatic. Like it makes [00:18:05] their job so easy. It’s something they can cite and then they want your perspective. And I think that’s [00:18:10] really, that’s the part that’s hard for people sometimes to conceptually understand. I, I just did a media interview, I guess [00:18:15] maybe two days ago now, and I was on this journalist, really well known journalist and she said, Jason, I’m so [00:18:20] happy to talk with you because you are bringing data and actual research and every other person that we’ve [00:18:25] interviewed just had opinions and it is such a difference.

And I saw the story ’cause it just came out and [00:18:30] I included. All through the story. Hmm. And, and I, and I just think like if, when [00:18:35] people realize how straightforward it is to get this done and like, Hey, you have your own study, you own all the [00:18:40] data, we own nothing. Yeah, we do the work, but it’s your vision.

You’re approving everything and [00:18:45] then you determine of all the data and insights that you found. ’cause it’s packed with discoveries. You get [00:18:50] to share them with the world, not us. This is all you. We are just here as a resource and a [00:18:55] partner and we will take the mystery away. Like we’ll do all the hard work, but, but you have to know enough about your [00:19:00] space where when we give it to you, you can just run with it and let the world know, because that’s our mission, right?

Yeah. Our, our, our mission [00:19:05] is, is to elevate thought leaders through research. And, and if we do that, [00:19:10] uh, it. It. Like that’s my legacy, right? That’s the thing I get fired up about. That’s why I [00:19:15] speak at all these events and I’m like, look, if nothing else in this room changed except y’all went out and all did studies [00:19:20] and were able to then elevate the expertise of the world because of that, like, cool, I’m done.

Like [00:19:25] that is the greatest thing ever because all the millions and millions and millions of people that are gonna be helped that way, [00:19:30] sometimes people come to us to, which is interesting, and they’ll say, well, you know, um, what if we find things we don’t like? [00:19:35] I’m like, you will find things you don’t like.

That’s research. But [00:19:40] you share what you’re gonna share, right? And, and oftentimes,

Rory: but also you should wanna know, like [00:19:45] you, you should want to know, like if, if you’re truly trying to help people and you’re truly trying to be a thought [00:19:50] leader, you should want to know if something you’re saying is wrong.

Like if you have a point of view that [00:19:55] is inaccurate or incorrect and you’re out there advancing it, it’s like you wanna know that [00:20:00] and it becomes a fascinating thing to talk about. Your own misconception about, [00:20:05] like, I had this misconception coming into the research study. Mm-hmm. Um, like I couldn’t believe in our [00:20:10] study as an example.

I never thought doctors would. Be an [00:20:15] important market for us, that, that people cared, that their, that, that, you know, we asked this [00:20:20] question about which profession does it matter? Mm-hmm. Uh, to a consumer that they have a personal brand. [00:20:25] Doctors was the number one profession. Mm-hmm. 61% of Americans said they want their [00:20:30] doctor to have an established personal brand.

Doctors weren’t even on our radar as [00:20:35] prospects for what we do at Brand Builders Group. And now we work with Dr. Josh Ax and we work with Dr. Gabrielle [00:20:40] Lyon, and we work with all of these really incredible, you know, chiropractors and, and, and, and [00:20:45] wellness people because it’s like, oh, in the health space, it matters to be able to like build a [00:20:50] personal brand that you can trust.

Jason: Mm-hmm.

Rory: So those, you wanna know when you’re wrong. [00:20:55] If you, you should want to know.

Jason: Yeah. And, and you know, the way I like to think about it is like, [00:21:00] it’s, it’s new information that can inform whatever it is you’re sharing. And sometimes you find that, that, Hey, I’ve been [00:21:05] saying something and it doesn’t land anymore in the way people think, right?

Like Wolf will go out and, I mean, I’ll, I’ll [00:21:10] give you example. We were just doing studies on employee benefits, uh, for one of our corporate clients. And [00:21:15] free mental health services was at the top. And the company goes, we don’t offer that at [00:21:20] all. I’m like, well that’s not a mistake. It’s an opportunity. ’cause clearly this is the number [00:21:25] one thing that this whole group wants, that if you offer it shows it’s gonna [00:21:30] drive recruiting and retention and long-term commitment.

Or on the flip side, we just did. ’cause you know, I [00:21:35] speak on generations. Uh, we just did a study and what Gen Z most wants more than anything else [00:21:40] is stability. Stability is one of the things that we can actually offer for [00:21:45] many in Gen Z. We just don’t emphasize it. And then we look at, well, what actually messages stability [00:21:50] for them to, right.

It think

Rory: they want ping pong tables and like

Jason: Yeah. Scheduling, flexibility and all this other stuff. Yeah. [00:21:55] Yeah. And it’s, but it makes sense. You go through years of instability, of course you want stability on the other side. [00:22:00] And every time that I can present that with our research and the leaders, [00:22:05] whether they’re in person or at some, you know, big virtual event, they’re like.

Rory: Wow,

Jason: I never thought about that. That [00:22:10] makes so much sense. Like as soon as you do, the more you do that, the more they’re ready to hear [00:22:15] everything else. Right. And, and, and I think that’s the key point. Great research advances a [00:22:20] conversation. Mm. And I tell people like, just advance the conversation and [00:22:25] it doesn’t even have to matter.

Like, are you right or wrong or this or that? It’s like you’re just trying to advance the [00:22:30] conversation. And that’s the part that drives so much media for us because. I don’t have an [00:22:35] agenda. I’m just like, Hey, this is what we found. We were shocked, we were surprised. We were [00:22:40] thrilled. We were all these things.

I, I just did an interview. I was like, we did not wanna discover this [00:22:45] at all.

Rory: Mm.

Jason: This is super concerning, but it’s [00:22:50] real and it’s the truth and we need to be talking about this.

Rory: Yeah.

Jason: And it changed all the energy.

Rory: [00:22:55] So again. As a business owner, part of what’s amazing is just like this is a problem [00:23:00] we can solve by writing a check and partnering with you.

If you’re, if you’re curious about that, go to free brand [00:23:05] training.com/research. We’ll connect you to Jason and their team. Um, [00:23:10] I wanna talk about what to do with the study once you have it. Right? So you invest this money. Mm-hmm. [00:23:15] Your team goes out, does your thing. We collaborate together. We come up with this amazing, brilliant, like, [00:23:20] these are the insights.

Jason: Mm-hmm.

Rory: Um. This, sitting in a room on a table [00:23:25] is not gonna do anything. Mm-hmm. So what do you do with your, [00:23:30] your most successful clients? What do they do with this to, to turn it into driving [00:23:35] business?

Jason: Yeah. Our, our belief is you should be able to make at least a 10 x [00:23:40] return on your money. But that 10 x return is not gonna come from doing the great study.

We’re gonna crush it. [00:23:45] Like we, we crush our studies. People love it. Like we know they’re gonna be amazing. [00:23:50] All of the return is gonna be putting the studies discoveries into action.

Rory: Hmm.

Jason: And [00:23:55] so what does that mean? We, we have something called our finding findings activation framework, but it’s how do you take [00:24:00] the data and discoveries and message ’em to the world?

In such a way that it drives your key business [00:24:05] outcomes. As you can probably guess, I’m into data and we should be able to measure everything. We should [00:24:10] be able to measure all the results from the study. And I don’t mean putting the insights into action. That’s absolutely true. If [00:24:15] it’s an internal study, meaning a company is leading the study to drive a a, a business strategy, but from an [00:24:20] external revenue generation standpoint, which is how personal brands should think about it.

Mm-hmm. This should be able [00:24:25] to drive leads. It should make, uh, should get you paid a lot more Money should drive media, should drive [00:24:30] longer term relationships and should help you to, um, offer to be able to solve bigger and different [00:24:35] challenges. So the way we do that is we’re like, okay, great. You get this beautiful data set, you get your [00:24:40] PowerPoint and let’s pretend that your findings deck is, um, 60 slides, right.

I’ve already pulled out all [00:24:45] the stories. Here’s all the great stories. Here’s the charts, here’s all the headlines, here’s [00:24:50] everything. Served it up to you. What do you do? So the first thing we tell them to do is you’re gonna go through there and you’re [00:24:55] gonna find the 10 or 20 that just give you tingles.

They get you fired up, you’re gonna [00:25:00] go circle ’em, right all over. Star, do whatever. But you need to start to figure out what are the stories you want to tell? ’cause [00:25:05] there’s not just one story in a study. There’s 10, 20, 30 study, uh, stories and you wanna be able [00:25:10] to tell them sometimes together, and a lot of times individually ’cause different stories resonate with different audiences.[00:25:15]

So we’re gonna go from that and say, okay, what is the best way to reach those that you want [00:25:20] to reach? So I speak to corporate executives and leaders and so forth. So for me, they [00:25:25] want white paper and they want that because it shows sort of depth around the discoveries. So [00:25:30] that means we find those 10 or 20 insights and we go in and we have a framework which is basically like, what did you [00:25:35] find?

What does it mean? Why is it urgent or important? What do I do with it? So then we fill that [00:25:40] out and that’s how we begin to develop these white papers. But for other clients of ours, like entrepreneurs [00:25:45] and some these personal, they are not interested in white papers. They’re like, what am I gonna do with white paper?

Mm-hmm. They instead want a video [00:25:50] series where we’re gonna take each insight and turn it into evergreen videos so they can go and share for a year, two [00:25:55] years. Maybe we turn into a course where all of a sudden now you have a research ba, a research backed course, [00:26:00] you know, for so many of our clients use it for books.

Some are for books they wanna do in the future, some are for books they’re [00:26:05] working on now. My favorite, we have people that release their study to go promote books they’ve already done.

Rory: Mm [00:26:10]

Jason: Right. They’ll just add bonus material or say they’ve updated it or they’ll just release the study [00:26:15] and then use that to get media again, to be able to then talk about the book.

Studies give you permission to [00:26:20] talk with people. Gives permission for people to wanna listen to you ’cause you have something they can’t get anywhere else. We [00:26:25] also, like, we use it a lot to, um, for all kinds of demand gen. So while people turn into [00:26:30] infographics, while people turn into short form videos, animated videos, um, people turn it [00:26:35] into, uh, op-eds.

Like I was, uh, I was on one of the big media outlets for an oped I wrote, [00:26:40] um, which was amazing on, on marketplace. So like a lot of these things are just. [00:26:45] You should have at least a year, if not two years of content in a single [00:26:50] study. People always ask me, well, do I have to do another study? Or I’m like, I’m like, you can, but it’s better to max out [00:26:55] the value from this.

And so we show you. Here’s how you use it in your speeches. Like for me, I. I [00:27:00] know like you do, we use our study in our speech. It’s also the lead gen. So for us, all the people in the [00:27:05] audience, whether it’s a thousand or 5,000 or 50, what do they do? They take out their phone, they scan the QR codes, [00:27:10] and then they can get the study.

But what’s really wild, it’s, and I never ever thought this would happen. [00:27:15] You would not believe how many people want the hard copy versions of it. Hmm. So the hard copy version [00:27:20] you have, like, we have so many clients and they will pay to get the versions so that everybody, in [00:27:25] fact a lot of ’em want it instead of the books or they’ll take it in addition to the books ’cause it feels very current and of the moment [00:27:30] and we could keep updating it.

So we see that, um, we use it in our consulting process. So for [00:27:35] anybody who’s doing professional services, you can then say, Hey, I have a research backed process, which is [00:27:40] huge in all of that. Same for communities. I mean, the whole idea is. What are [00:27:45] the problems you’re trying to solve with the study? How can you turn that into the right thing to [00:27:50] educate and inform that audience?

And it looks different for everybody. We do live webinars, we do prerecorded. [00:27:55] Our clients use this in so many different ways. I know my favorites is creating indexes [00:28:00] or creating now, then create their own quizzes. You know, that’s top lead gen for so many people right [00:28:05] now. And now you have one that’s research backed and once people get the vision and go, oh, I got it.

[00:28:10] So I could take what I already do, you’ll come in and make this research backed, and then I could turn into all these [00:28:15] marketing tools and PR tools and communication tools. I just get to level up every single thing [00:28:20] I do.

Rory: Talk about research backed real, real quick, and then we’ll, we’ll land the plane ’cause this.

This has [00:28:25] been amazing, but I think. So you’ve really made a strong case [00:28:30] for the, the power of research, the reasons to do it, both for just getting [00:28:35] actual answers and insights, also for branding and positioning. Uh, and then also, [00:28:40] you know, for perception and like price increases. Why can’t I just do this myself with [00:28:45] SurveyMonkey?

Like, why do I need, why do I need you? Why, why, what, [00:28:50] what makes something count as like real research versus like, why can’t I just email my [00:28:55] email list? Mm-hmm. And come up with some questions and, and ask them, can you talk about the [00:29:00] difference between, you know, a true academic methodology [00:29:05] and statistically valid sample sizes versus just like.

People do this, right? They’ll put [00:29:10] something on their Instagram stories, they’ll ask a question, and then they’ll present it as like, [00:29:15] research. Why is that? Why does that not count as, as real [00:29:20] research?

Jason: Yeah, that’s a great question. The, um, we actually, in our, um, proposals, [00:29:25] the, we have a whole page just on why you could do that and why it won’t actually deliver all the things that [00:29:30] you want.

But basically. When you think about the difference between a [00:29:35] study and a survey, just in a traditional sentence, if I’m gonna survey my list, you’re not [00:29:40] getting anything representative except of your list, and except of the people who decided they like you [00:29:45] enough or you offered some free thing for them to complete it, it doesn’t actually represent.

Anything [00:29:50] other than the people on your list who had nothing better to do at that moment? Same with Facebook. It’s whoever you [00:29:55] reached or any of these. So in our model, uh, generally our studies are a thousand people [00:30:00] and it’s always weighted to something. So usually, for example, it’s weighted to the US census for age, gender, [00:30:05] geography, and ethnicity.

Um, and we have a thousand people. ’cause that gives us a margin there. Plus or minus [00:30:10] 3.1, uh, 19.

Rory: What very a margin. Yeah.

Jason: [00:30:15] 19 out 20 times, uh, 20 times, which is sort of the, what they call the 95th confidence interval. [00:30:20] All of that to say, uh,

Rory: meaning that when you ask a thousand people at that level, [00:30:25] it’s like that’s going to be a statistically valid representative sample of the entire [00:30:30] nation.

Jason: Mm-hmm.

Rory: And that’s what makes it valid. It’s, it’s not just a thousand people took it, it’s [00:30:35] that the demographics of the thousand people who took it. Represent the [00:30:40] demographics, weighted and equivalent sort of to the nation, the national demographics.

Jason: Yeah, [00:30:45] so we’re gonna match the US census, and so we’re gonna have all the different states represented and [00:30:50] genders and, and anything else.

So like age, gender, geography, and ethnicity. That gives us a really low [00:30:55] margin error. This is very important because we always publish methodologies, so [00:31:00] that’s why all these media outlets wanna use it because they know, oh, this is [00:31:05] statistically accurate. Otherwise, you’re just doing a survey. If you wanna own a space, [00:31:10] you have to be statistically accurate.

You want a very low margin of error because that [00:31:15] means it’s real and valid. And once you do that, then people will cite you. The media will cite you. [00:31:20] Academics will cite you. Business leaders will cite you. Boards of directors, investor groups. [00:31:25] All of these places will cite you because you have a statistically accurate national study.

[00:31:30] That’s what I always tell people. You have to name your study and give it a credible name, not some cheeky name, because [00:31:35] you wanna be the source of truth. So own that space. Be the source of truth. ’cause your [00:31:40] data, your study is valid. It’s, it’s statistically rigorous [00:31:45] and that’s why so many big companies use us.

That’s why all kinds of different groups partner with us, so many personal [00:31:50] brands is because. If you’re going to invest the time to do it, you want to do it right. So I think [00:31:55] for us, the big, at least what I hear from our clients, ’cause you know most of them are repeat or direct referrals. What I hear from [00:32:00] our clients is we do study design differently than anybody else because we do study design specifically [00:32:05] for thought leadership.

Mm-hmm. That is what we do. Then we manage the process. So the thousand or 2000, [00:32:10] however many participants go through it and they’ll meet whatever the criteria are. Maybe they’re all people that have over a [00:32:15] million dollars. Maybe they all are business owners, maybe they’re all moms. Like we, you know, we do all [00:32:20] kinds of studies and then the analysis where we pull out the stories for them.

[00:32:25] That’s like magic and they get so excited and the response at the app,

Rory: right? Or even if I’m not like a numbers [00:32:30] person, I don’t really understand. Yeah, no, no. You’re, you’re doing that extrapolation for me.

Jason: We do the whole thing

Rory: and then I just [00:32:35] can go be the storyteller.

Jason: You can present your study the same day.

We teach you how to present it. We give you [00:32:40] our framework. We record presenting it as if we’re you. We give you everything you need so that you can take whatever your [00:32:45] strengths are and your passion. And immediately integrate the, the study and the discoveries so that you can [00:32:50] start telling the world. And you know, for us, we always believe you should create a research hub, which is something on your [00:32:55] website that everybody’s wanting goes back to, that’ll have your key findings and your perspective on it.

And you know, white [00:33:00] papers, infographics, videos, those sorts of things. So you have this sort of center of truth that’s now a part [00:33:05] of what you do. And I, I just, again, if you own the data, you own the space. If you’re [00:33:10] constantly citing other people to make your point, you’re missing an opportunity to really step up to that next level.[00:33:15]

Or as you said earlier, you know, one step below a celebrity.

Rory: [00:33:20] Uh, well, there you have it again, free brand training.com/research if you’re interested in this. And [00:33:25] share this episode with someone you know, who is a personal brand or an entrepreneur who [00:33:30] is ready to go to that next level to like true authority, right?

This is, this is, you know, this [00:33:35] idea of statistically valid, academically accurate and sound. Uh, this is [00:33:40] a, a level of legitimizing your expertise and your own confidence in what you’re teaching. [00:33:45] And that’s what this is really about. So. Make sure you, if you know someone like that who should be [00:33:50] doing this at that level and owning a conversation, share this episode with them.

Uh, make sure you hit [00:33:55] subscribe, tell us your thoughts down below, and we’ll catch you next time on the Wealthy and Well-Known [00:34:00] [00:34:05] [00:34:10] podcast.

WWK Ep 020: How to Create an Audiobook That Moves People with Tavia Gilbert

Rory: [00:00:00] That’s very frustrating and annoying. Mm-hmm. As an author, but, and then also with my colleagues, I’m going, [00:00:05] we can’t give away our own book. This thing costs nothing to produce, like [00:00:10] literally nothing to distribute, and yet somehow the money’s not coming back to us as creatives and that. [00:00:15] That bothers me.

Yeah. And it’s not about money, it’s, it’s so much, it’s just like, it just doesn’t, [00:00:20] it feels like injustice.

Tavia: Right, right. I’m with you and if I can ever help you solve that problem, I [00:00:25] want justice for the people whose hearts and minds justice for the people. Yes. Yes. I love the [00:00:30] direction this interview has taken.[00:00:35] [00:00:40] [00:00:45]

Rory: How do you make money with audio books and what [00:00:50] makes a great audio book? What are the mistakes that most audio book [00:00:55] authors make, and how does the whole industry of audio books work? How has it been created [00:01:00] and how is it changing in the future? Those are some of the issues and questions that [00:01:05] we’re gonna address.

On today’s episode, and it’s not often that we [00:01:10] bring in outside vendors, but in the case that we meet someone who is a real [00:01:15] expert, and especially when it’s someone that we have hired personally and benefited [00:01:20] from, we want to introduce you. To them. And today that is the case with our [00:01:25] good friend Tavia Gilbert.

She is one of the most world renowned experts on [00:01:30] audiobook. So let me read a couple things from her formal bio. So first of all, she is a Grammy [00:01:35] nominated award-winning voice actor, producer, and creative director. She [00:01:40] was the creative director for. Mine in AJ’s, wealthy and well-known audiobook, uh, [00:01:45] which, uh, is phenomenal.

I might say if, if I can. Um, she is known [00:01:50] for her, uh, her transformative storytelling in both audio and [00:01:55] podcasting. She has nominated for many audio awards. Um, she has, uh, [00:02:00] she won. This, I wanna say it correctly. Audiobook Narrator of the [00:02:05] Year by Booklist Magazine. She’s produced and been a part of over 1000 [00:02:10] audiobooks for major publishers.

Penguin Random House, Blackstone Ette, Simon and [00:02:15] Schuster McMillan. Also hybrid books. Um, she is the person that we [00:02:20] predominantly work with for audio books, uh, with Mission-Driven Press, which of course is our sister company, where we [00:02:25] distribute our books through Simon and Schuster, but we also own the audio rights, and so [00:02:30] we work with Tabia on that.

So she is a pro, she knows what she’s talking about, and [00:02:35] this is a big, important issue, especially with the freedom that it gives authors in the [00:02:40] future. Tavia, welcome to the show,

Tavia: Rory. Thank you so much for having me. [00:02:45] I’m so honored to be here.

Rory: We really lean into people who are experts and obviously it’s a big part of what we [00:02:50] teach.

And man, this is, this is your universe.

Tavia: It is.

Rory: Um, I [00:02:55] wanna actually start with the business of audio books if we can. Um, I, I, I want to get to the [00:03:00] art as well, which I know is like a big part of also your bread and butter.

Tavia: Yeah.

Rory: But I think that [00:03:05] a lot of authors. I have no clue how audio books really work.

Tavia: Yeah. [00:03:10]

Rory: Like, they just go, don’t, I? Like, I, I know I recorded, I went to a [00:03:15] studio and recorded my book, but then, you know, nothing happens. It’s like this giant black box. Do I make any [00:03:20] money? How do I make money? What’s the difference between a self-published audio book and traditionally? So can [00:03:25] you just like, give us a little bit of an understanding of like, what’s [00:03:30] the economics of an audio book in, in both traditional publishing and [00:03:35] self-publishing and like.

How does it work? I mean, obviously you gotta record a [00:03:40] file and, and we’ll talk about that Yeah. Later, but I wanna just dive into the, the, the [00:03:45] money of how do you make money from audio books and who makes money with audio [00:03:50] books?

Tavia: Well, hopefully, hopefully the author will make some money from their audio books.[00:03:55]

That’s a, a pretty broad question, so if I get kind of away from it, bring me back because there are a [00:04:00] lot of components to the answer.

Rory: Yeah.

Tavia: First, the audiobook [00:04:05] industry has been growing, growing, growing. It’s a multi-billion dollar industry, and it [00:04:10] is the, it is a major part of publishing. So when I first started almost [00:04:15] 20 years ago, people saw audiobooks as kind of like a redheaded stepsister.

[00:04:20] It was like off to the side and people were. Very afraid that audio books [00:04:25] would poach print sales. Mm. So there was some kind of discomfort [00:04:30] in some areas of publishing about audio books. Mm. And over the last few [00:04:35] decades, audio books have been such an integral part of publishing and [00:04:40] marketing the book, getting the book out to audiences that it has really [00:04:45] shifted and audio is now one of the most important parts of your publishing [00:04:50] plan.

Rory: Hmm.

Tavia: If you’re. Publishing traditionally. [00:04:55] Often your audio book writes will be bundled with your print rights, right?

Rory: So

Tavia: [00:05:00] say you are publishing through a traditional publisher, they’re going to publish your print [00:05:05] book and produce your audio book. So that

Rory: is, and then that’s like, that’s what happened to me.

I [00:05:10] had a literary agent, we got a book deal, and I really didn’t even think much about it. Mm-hmm. It’s just [00:05:15] kind of like, yeah, it’s all bundled together. It wasn’t like really a separate [00:05:20] negotiation. Right. And I was just like, oh, the, and then. I was like, later on I was like, [00:05:25] I wish I would’ve known a little bit more.

Like I, I wish I would’ve understood this [00:05:30] piece of it better.

Tavia: Yeah. Now people understand more the [00:05:35] value of their audio rights, and I think part of the value is because it’s your voice. It’s bringing [00:05:40] to life your book off the page. So there’s a real resonance and frequency in that [00:05:45] audio product of the message.

Yes, it’s very powerful.

Rory: I mean, when [00:05:50] AJ reads her chapters of our book, it makes me cry made like I’ve me cry. I the story literally, I’ve heard the [00:05:55] story hundreds of times when I hear her tell it in our audio book chapter three, like [00:06:00] I break down crying. It’s such a powerful. [00:06:05] Medium and, and to to hear it in, in her own voice.

But anyways, yeah. So, so

Tavia: well, and your chapters [00:06:10] made me cry. Like the passion and the, the ambition and the hustle and the commitment. So it’s, [00:06:15] it has that power. Not that people don’t cry in books. They do, of course we cry when we read [00:06:20] books, but that there’s something about somebody telling their story that is just, it’s [00:06:25] amazing, transformative listening.

If you don’t have a [00:06:30] traditional publisher, if you are uh, publishing in a hybrid situation, [00:06:35] often the best case scenario for you as an author is for an [00:06:40] audio publisher to purchase your audiobook rights. Okay, so there are. [00:06:45] It’s, it’s consolidating, like all of the c corporate, corporate life is [00:06:50] consolidating into fewer and fewer companies, but there are still companies that [00:06:55] acquire only audiobook rights.

Rory: So it’s just like a book publisher. Mm-hmm. But they [00:07:00] specialize in, we buy audio books.

Tavia: Right?

Rory: And so if you self-publish or [00:07:05] you hybrid publish. As an author, you own those rights, right? You don’t sell them to a traditional [00:07:10] publisher, so then you then could turn around and sell them to, are they just called audio [00:07:15] publishers?

Tavia: Yes.

Rory: Is that what they are? Mm-hmm. Yeah. But they’re, are they also distributors? Yes. Or is [00:07:20] that a different thing?

Tavia: Yes. So if you were hybrid publishing and an [00:07:25] audio publisher purchased your audiobook rights, they would pay for the production [00:07:30] expenses and they would distribute that audiobook.

Rory: Okay, so that’s a positive thing.

Yeah. ’cause there’s [00:07:35] production, ex expenses. Yeah. And that’s that. So they, they’re gonna pay those [00:07:40] expenses. Now, are they usually paying in advance?

Tavia: Um, it [00:07:45] depends. Every contract is

Rory: different.

Tavia: Different, you know, so some people are [00:07:50] going to have a small advance. Some people may have their production expenses [00:07:55] covered.

Um. And get less of an advance or, you know, every deal is [00:08:00] sure details.

Rory: It depends on the author and the platform and all that kind of of stuff the same. But, but you could, [00:08:05] you, you at least, you’re not gonna be coming out of pocket to produce the audio. Right. Which is like if you [00:08:10] hybrid publish or you self-publish you, you do that.

Now, when that, and that’s part of why we met you is with [00:08:15] Mission-Driven Press. We got into the details of this and we’re like, this is, there’s a lot here.

Tavia: Yeah. [00:08:20]

Rory: It’s better for authors to just. You know, they can just pay us and then we go, we [00:08:25] take care of this for you. Right? They still own the rights of it, but like we solve the problem of the [00:08:30] production.

’cause the production is. A little bit easier. I feel like these days, I mean it’s, it’s more [00:08:35] common that people have microphones and like studios and you know, even though when [00:08:40] you do it, you’re doing like a real sound studio.

Tavia: Yeah. And I think one of the dangers, [00:08:45] and I don’t know if you want to move away from the economics yet, into the production, they’re, [00:08:50] they’re linked, you know, it’s a related conversation, but.

There’s a I I find that [00:08:55] often people have a DIY sort of mindset about their audio and I [00:09:00] think that’s a real risk and a real problem.

Rory: Let’s save that for later. Yeah. So yeah, [00:09:05] stick around. ’cause I definitely want to get into that. Yeah. So help, let’s go back to the landscape of the [00:09:10] space. Mm-hmm. That the industry, so I can.

I can sell my rights to [00:09:15] an audiobook publisher. This would be like Blackstone, right? Mm-hmm. Is what you’re talking about the one?

Tavia: Yeah. Blackstone Tan Tour, [00:09:20] something like that. That

Rory: What’s the, what’d the other one?

Tavia: Tan Tour.

Rory: Okay. I didn’t even heard. I’m not even familiar with [00:09:25] that.

Tavia: Yeah. But a Blackstone or Recorded books is a big publisher related to Tanto, so there [00:09:30] are audio publishers where you can sell your rights.

And they, then again, they’re producing it. [00:09:35]

Rory: Do you need a literary agent to do that or Usually authors are just kind of like going direct ’cause there’s not a lot of money [00:09:40] here. Right. And, and there’s, it’s, it’s rare that you get a big advance for audio. Right,

Tavia: right, right.

Rory: So [00:09:45] an agent, literary agents probably are not as much drawn to this space,

Tavia: but I think that you, [00:09:50] you probably are going to have more success with an agent [00:09:55] backing you when you’re trying to sell your rights.

Mm-hmm. But as an independent author, you can certainly approach [00:10:00] companies. Hope that they will acquire your rights. Audible may [00:10:05] acquire your rights. So, uh, a trade magazine that’s a [00:10:10] really. Uh, good, uh, tool and resources Audio File magazine. It’s the audio [00:10:15] book magazine. Okay. And if people get familiar with that magazine, it tells, [00:10:20] you know, there are articles and ads and reviews, and it’s the industry of [00:10:25] audio publishing.

So that’s how people can maybe discover who those companies are that are [00:10:30] acquiring rights. Who are the audio book publishers that are exclusively dealing with [00:10:35] audio, not with print. So. Definitely recommend people get familiar with

Rory: audio [00:10:40] file. So if I either, if I sell my rights either as part of a traditional deal [00:10:45] or I figure out a way to go direct, or I get an agent to just do my audio rights, if I’m hybrid [00:10:50] or self-published, then they’re gonna publish it.

They’re paying for the expenses and then they’re [00:10:55] gonna distribute it, meaning they’re gonna take the audio book and they’re gonna make it available in [00:11:00] Spotify and iTunes and Audible and places like that

Tavia: [00:11:05] probably. They would widely distribute. But one [00:11:10] uh, thing that’s important to understand is that audible.[00:11:15]

Is an ecosystem that stands alone. And if people, whether an [00:11:20] independent author, a hybrid publishing author, or a traditional publisher, if they want [00:11:25] to distribute for the highest royalty, they’re going to go exclusively to [00:11:30] Audible. They’re still the biggest deal in audio publishing. Spotify’s coming up, [00:11:35] you know, really trying to compete with them.

So if you want to publish widely [00:11:40] audible spotify audiobooks.com, downpour in the public [00:11:45] library market, you cannot. Get the royalty share that you [00:11:50] would if you went only to Audible.

Rory: And when, when you say only with Audible, you’re [00:11:55] talking about an Audible exclusive, which means that Audible is the only platform that people [00:12:00] could hear your audio book.

Tavia: Right?

Rory: Right. So you, it’s like that is an option. [00:12:05] That is like a self-contained option, and that’s what a lot of my private clients are doing. Mm-hmm. And [00:12:10] they’ve gotten some huge, huge deals.

Tavia: Yeah.

Rory: Right. Yeah. It’s like, you know, I think [00:12:15] audiobook, when I hear audiobook advance, I tend to think like $5,000 or 10,000 or 20, [00:12:20] some of them have gotten like huge advances.

Tavia: Right.

Rory: And, but, but then it’s like [00:12:25] audible. Owns that. Right. You cannot get it anywhere else.

Tavia: Right.

Rory: So that’s the best [00:12:30] money in town. Um, but then it’s not available in the public [00:12:35] library. Right? It’s not available on iTunes and Spotify. And that’s why Audible’s doing that. They’re, they’re kind of like,

Tavia: I think it’s [00:12:40] Audible iTunes, I think Audible and iTunes go hand in hand.

Okay. Or [00:12:45] there’s, um. I can put this in the show notes, we can talk about it so that I make sure [00:12:50] and it changes. So I just wanna make sure that I’m giving the most current up to date.

Rory: Okay.

Tavia: But, um, [00:12:55] yes, audible is going to be the, the highest royalty return.

Rory: And what kind of [00:13:00] royalties do you, do you get on an audio book?

Like, and, and, and walk us through like. [00:13:05] How do you even calculate a a a a royalty. So is this like, [00:13:10] like on a traditional published book? You know, we, I remember on like my [00:13:15] take the stairs book, you get, I wanna say we got between 10 to 15, a sliding thing between [00:13:20] 10 to 15% on hardcover. Mm-hmm. For the first whatever.

And then [00:13:25] on paperback, which the publisher immediately pushed it to paperback, it drops to [00:13:30] 8% on like the first 150,000 or, you know, something like that. Like, yeah. Um. [00:13:35] Are those the audio book royalty rates? Are they higher?

Tavia: So if you [00:13:40] are exclusively distributing to Audible, your royalty right now would be [00:13:45] 40% of sales.

Rory: Wow.

Tavia: Um, if you are [00:13:50] distributing to Audible in a non-exclusive arrangement so that you are also able to [00:13:55] distribute everywhere else, audio books can be discovered and purchased, [00:14:00] that royalty drops to 25%.

Rory: Okay.

Tavia: So

Rory: just talking [00:14:05] about Audible,

Tavia: right? If you, right now I work a lot with In Audio, [00:14:10] which is another distributor, I can distribute a book through in [00:14:15] audio and it will push it to Audible and everywhere else [00:14:20] if I distribute in, in audio.

I can [00:14:25] exclude Audible from that distribution platform. I recommend often that my [00:14:30] authors who want the widest possible distribution, that’s a higher priority than the [00:14:35] highest royalty share. I recommend that they distribute through [00:14:40] Audible in a non-exclusive arrangement.

Rory: So you’re talking 25% royalty,

Tavia: right?[00:14:45]

And then they distribute through in audio. [00:14:50] Excluding Audible from that distribution option,

Rory: so, so everywhere else [00:14:55] basically.

Tavia: Right? Right.

Rory: Yeah.

Tavia: So you’re getting kind of the best of both worlds

Rory: right now. Part of when people [00:15:00] hire you, you, you deal with all this, right? That you can, you can set, you can, you can, [00:15:05] part of your fee is just as like, you’re gonna deal with all this and you set it up and like you talk us through [00:15:10] how do we want to do this, right?

We agree on a thing, and then you deal with like submitting it and doing all of that [00:15:15] stuff,

Tavia: right? Because it can be a technical. Headache. It’s annoying. Yeah. To, you know, but I [00:15:20] also want to know with every client, what’s your priority? What’s your goal? Do you wanna get this out as [00:15:25] widely as possible? Are you trying to make the most money possible?

What’s important to you? Do you wanna [00:15:30] deal with the fewest platforms? You know, there’s not a cookie cutter one right [00:15:35] answer that fits everybody’s business plans, right? So it’s really important that people [00:15:40] don’t just make assumptions and think audible’s the only game in town. And they kind of [00:15:45] have to go in that direction.

Um, audible comes exclusive distribution, comes with a [00:15:50] seven year commitment, which can be shifted. Oh, midstream. If you really do want [00:15:55] to get out of that contract or

Rory: exclusive, it’s a seven year commitment.

Tavia: Right.

Rory: Okay.

Tavia: Right now they’re pretty [00:16:00] flexible. They’ll let you out of that commitment. That can always change.

So you wanna be [00:16:05] careful what commitment you’re making

Rory: and when you get a royalty in audio, like if it’s 40%. [00:16:10] Are you saying that you get 40%? Like if my book is $10, if [00:16:15] my audio book is $10 that every time Audible sells it, I’m gonna make [00:16:20] $4. ’cause that’s pretty good. But that doesn’t seem to be reflective of what we’re seeing on royalty [00:16:25] checks.

Tavia: It’s really hard to understand your royalty checks, honestly, [00:16:30] because Audible can make your book available for the, the [00:16:35] daily, you know, really cut rate. Everybody buy this for two bucks, you know, or

Rory: [00:16:40] whatever. Okay.

Tavia: And they shifted all, you have no control over pricing and audio is [00:16:45] distributed in, in so many different ways, so many different models.

There are over [00:16:50] 40 platforms that distribute audio books worldwide. Some are streaming, [00:16:55] some are credit models like Audible, some are number of hours. That’s the thing. How do

Rory: I get paid if, if, [00:17:00] if as a customer they’re paying 10 bucks a month or whatever the subscription is for [00:17:05] Audible and then. They get so many credits and they download my book and like maybe they [00:17:10] listen to five minutes.

Mm-hmm. Maybe they listen to five hours, like. [00:17:15] How does that work? Or does anybody know? ’cause like, I, I don’t feel like that’s very transparent or clear. It’s not. [00:17:20] Or at least not very simple to understand.

Tavia: Yeah, it’s not. And I, I partner with one [00:17:25] of the leading experts in audiobooks, Michelle Cobb, who’s been in the industry for over [00:17:30] two decades.

And I go to her, you know, every couple months I’m like, we’ve gotta figure this out for [00:17:35] people. How we can make it clear, how we can make it transparent. We [00:17:40] are partnering to give the best service, the most information, [00:17:45] but it is not possible for us to make up for the, the [00:17:50] deficit of so many different models, so many different ways.

Prices, it’s just, [00:17:55] it’s kind of opaque and that’s just the way the industry is. And [00:18:00] right now, that’s not gonna change anytime soon.

Rory: Yeah. So funny that you, you know, [00:18:05] as you say that this is why. We didn’t do an audio deal at [00:18:10] all,

Tavia: right.

Rory: We just we’re like, we’re gonna hold our own audio. ’cause, ’cause [00:18:15] as a mission-driven messenger, right?

So even at, even at my level, [00:18:20] uh, I’m not getting huge. Advances.

Tavia: Right.

Rory: And so [00:18:25] the way that we think of our book is less of like, oh, we’re gonna make money off our book. And more of [00:18:30] like, the book is the lead generation tool into our ecosystem, to which when people read our [00:18:35] book, they go, whoa, these people know what they’re doing.

They can, you know, help us with, with other stuff.

Tavia: [00:18:40] Yeah.

Rory: Um, and it’s always driven me so insane that I [00:18:45] cannot gift my own audiobook. Mm-hmm. Like even when I had a traditional [00:18:50] publishing deal. I could at least buy my hardcover book at [00:18:55] a discount. It was not a great discount. Right. It was like, you know, 35% off.

Like it’s, it’s [00:19:00] still paying a ton of money. But one of the reasons we did hybrid publishing on the print version was so [00:19:05] that we could get our books at wholesale costs, which has been a game changer. Mm-hmm. Like it cost me way [00:19:10] more to give. A paperback version of Take the Stairs then [00:19:15] to give out our beautiful hardcover embossed dust jacket version [00:19:20] of Wealthy and well known.

Tavia: Yeah.

Rory: So at least with a physical book I can give it out.

Tavia: Right.

Rory: But [00:19:25] with audio I’m like, this is crazy. It’s air like why Right. Can’t [00:19:30] IG this to people? And when you sell your rights, you give up [00:19:35] that. Right,

Tavia: right.

Rory: Um, because they own the right to the book. And so that’s why [00:19:40] this time around we’re like, there’s not enough money showing up on our royalty checks, right?

From our first two audio books, and I can [00:19:45] see how many units are being sold, kind of.

Tavia: Mm-hmm.

Rory: And I’m like, we’re selling, we’re selling [00:19:50] just as many units on audio as we are in physical. But [00:19:55] the, the royal, the royalty check is way less.

Tavia: Right?

Rory: And all we see is like a number. [00:20:00] So there’s like no transparency in the reporting, right?

But we can go sold this many [00:20:05] physical books. This many audio books. One was a check for this, the other check was significantly less and I [00:20:10] can’t give it away. And that was part of what also pushed us to hybrid is going, this is insane. We’re going [00:20:15] to use the audiobook. And sell it ourselves. Mm-hmm. And just do it.

[00:20:20] So are, are you seeing other authors do that or not really? Are people still hesitant to like, [00:20:25] say, I’m gonna like. Control the whole audio thing myself,

Tavia: I think more and more people [00:20:30] are picking up on the opportunity that audio gives them to connect, to be a [00:20:35] lead magnet or a lead generator. People are getting it and some [00:20:40] audio books are now being distributed before their print.

So [00:20:45] that’s kind of an interesting shift.

Rory: Mm-hmm. Yeah. We, we, we did that. Yeah. And to my knowledge, we [00:20:50] were one of the first that really pushed that. Yeah. But we gave away the audio book for free and [00:20:55] used that as a lead magnet to sell the physical copy.

Tavia: Right.

Rory: Which worked pretty well.

Tavia: I think, [00:21:00] you know, unfortunately publishing is a difficult business.[00:21:05]

A lot of authors know that they’re not going to make a lot of money on their [00:21:10] book.

Rory: Mm-hmm.

Tavia: And that for them. Who, the, those who decide to move forward to put [00:21:15] in the time and the, the blood, sweat and tears of writing a book and getting it out there, know [00:21:20] that it’s leading to something bigger than the book alone.

Rory: Mm.

Tavia: And so I think that [00:21:25] just, uh, savvy and strategic authors have a bigger [00:21:30] plan and they understand the rollout at a certain time, what they’re driving people [00:21:35] to, how it all works. I think that’s not gonna change anytime soon. [00:21:40] No. No. Corporation right now I see is going to be benevolent and say we [00:21:45] want people to be more empowered.

We want creatives to have more of their revenue. That’s just not the way. [00:21:50] The world works right now.

Rory: Yeah. Well to, so to that point, if you go to free brand [00:21:55] call.com/podcast, that’s exactly precisely what we specialize in is helping

Tavia: [00:22:00] Yeah.

Rory: Authors create monetization strategy beyond the book, outside of the book [00:22:05] and turning it into other, other revenue streams.

Um, you know, and there’s a part of [00:22:10] me, like, as you say this, and part of why I wanted to have this interview is there’s a part of me, you know, [00:22:15] you use the word benevolence. Mm. There’s a part of me that’s going. Could brand builders group ever get [00:22:20] to the level one day of scale that we could solve this problem because we’re [00:22:25] selling air and yet the authors don’t seem to be making any money.

Tavia: Mm-hmm.

Rory: Uh, and [00:22:30] to me that’s very frustrating and annoying as an author, but, and then also with my colleagues, I’m going, [00:22:35] we can’t give away our own book. This thing costs nothing to produce, [00:22:40] like literally nothing to distribute, and yet somehow the [00:22:45] money’s not coming back to us as creatives.

Tavia: Yeah.

Rory: And that.

That bothers me. Yeah. And it’s not about [00:22:50] money, it’s, it’s so much, it’s just like, it just doesn’t, it feels like injustice.

Tavia: Right, right. I’m with [00:22:55] you and if I can ever help you solve that problem, I want justice for the people whose hearts and minds [00:23:00] justice for the people. Yes. Yes. I love the direction this interview has taken.

So yeah, I [00:23:05] think it’s an important question. But for now, people should work with you to figure out [00:23:10] their strategy because the content of the book needs to get out into the world in all [00:23:15] formats. So it is an ongoing problem. You’re not the only person who has had that [00:23:20] frustration looking at royalty reports that are really difficult to understand.

But, [00:23:25] uh, I have seen people more and more put their book in their app. Distribute [00:23:30] it that way, whether it’s monetized or just, that’s

Rory: what we did.

Tavia: It’s just Right.

Rory: That’s what we did. We built our own app. We dropped the [00:23:35] book in there, and then when people download it, right, they get, they, they don’t, they not only get in our book, but [00:23:40] they get, um.

They get inside our app. Mm-hmm. All of our, our free [00:23:45] content, which if, uh, if you go to free brand audiobook.com/podcast, [00:23:50] free brand audiobook.com/podcast, you can get our audiobook for free. [00:23:55] And if nothing else, just see how we do this. Mm-hmm. Right. So you go to a page, you [00:24:00] put you, you fill it out. We send the audiobook and the mechanism by which we use to deliver [00:24:05] it is our own app.

And then that also gives us a way to stay in touch with people, which has been super. [00:24:10] Super powerful.

Tavia: Right?

Rory: Because that’s the other problem when, when you sell at retail, [00:24:15] which is also the, the same issue exists with physical books that when [00:24:20] someone goes and buys a copy of my book at Amazon, you know, okay.

I guess that’s good. I make. [00:24:25] Whatever, $2 or a dollar on the book. But the, the [00:24:30] more expensive problem is I never get the customer’s contact information. Right. Right. I don’t know who [00:24:35] they are. And it’s definitely that way with audio books. Right. They just sort of like disappear into [00:24:40] the ether. But when you own the rights, put it in your app.

Now all of a [00:24:45] sudden. I, I have a direct line of communication for them forever. And to us, I’m [00:24:50] going, that’s the more valuable piece. Of

Tavia: course. Yeah. If you had distributed your audio [00:24:55] book through Audible exclusively, you would not have the right to distribute it in your app. So [00:25:00] authors really need to understand that, what that relationship and that commitment means.[00:25:05]

It’s, it’s limiting. So audible still, again, is the juggernaut. It’s the biggest deal in [00:25:10] town still, but it’s, but that’s

Rory: why they’re paying more money is they’re. They want [00:25:15] control over it. But what you’re saying is I still could distribute our [00:25:20] audiobook ’cause we did not do exclusive. I could still have it on Audible.

Tavia: Absolutely.

Rory: And people could [00:25:25] just go buy it. Um, we’ve just, and right now we’ve said the only way you can get it

Tavia: right

Rory: is through our [00:25:30] app. ’cause we just want to know who the people are. Um, but, uh, okay. Let’s talk about the [00:25:35] art of it, because this is, I, IM important and, and I know this is something you’re really passionate [00:25:40] about.

Yeah. And, and I have to say, you know, I’ll start by saying. You know, [00:25:45] I’m a two time world champion of public speaking, and I thought, oh, I [00:25:50] can just like pick up the microphone and just record this, right? Like, I do this for a living. And then I met you and [00:25:55] I was so empowered by the coaching that you gave me, and [00:26:00] my first two books were traditionally published.

Mm-hmm. I [00:26:05] had an audio producer, but basically they just sat there and said, oh, [00:26:10] you fumbled that word. Go back and rerecord, oh, that pause was too long. We need to edit that out. [00:26:15] Like you did something completely different. Yeah. My experience with [00:26:20] you was so much better. It was a completely different level, which in a way [00:26:25] was very surprising to me because I would’ve thought, oh, the traditional publishers and my big fancy book deal [00:26:30] would’ve come with mm-hmm.

Another level here, so, so describe [00:26:35] what do you think are the spectrums of. What it means to have an [00:26:40] audiobook producer and, and, and a creative director. And yeah. And what, what are some [00:26:45] of that intel?

Tavia: Yeah. Well, I loved working with you and I’m really, really honored that I got to, and that it [00:26:50] made a difference in your experience.

I served as the audiobook [00:26:55] producer, so my company Talkbox from end to end, from, you know, your [00:27:00] manuscript to talking and consulting around distribution. Uh, [00:27:05] that’s the service that we provided in the booth. I served as your audiobook director [00:27:10] and so I was helping you stay present in the moment, [00:27:15] deeply connected to the material.

And the difference is, [00:27:20] I think in. Working without the knowledge or without the, the guidance [00:27:25] of somebody like me. An author thinks their job is to read their book aloud. I’m just reading the [00:27:30] text and recording it into the microphone, and I think that’s the last thing that you were [00:27:35] doing. What I guided you to do is discover the material as if [00:27:40] it was for the first time to think the thoughts in real time as you were.

[00:27:45] Discovering them all over again to connect to the emotion of it, to be in your [00:27:50] heart throughout. It’s a very meditative practice. I think your book was about eight and a [00:27:55] half, nine hours maybe. And so for both of you, I was inviting you to be present [00:28:00] moment to moment to moment, and. It is about [00:28:05] phrasing for, excuse me, phrasing for sense, making sure that the emphasis is [00:28:10] on the, the best operative word.

That your, you know, your diction is [00:28:15] smooth and listenable. Um, that everything is clear, but it’s really about how [00:28:20] connected are you, how alive is this in you and great actors. The thing that [00:28:25] differentiates great actors from. Average actors is their sense of [00:28:30] discovery and it’s fresh. Even if they’ve rehearsed that play or practiced that [00:28:35] scene for, you know, 50 times before when the audience sees it, [00:28:40] they’re experiencing somebody in a state of discovery.

That’s exactly what makes a great [00:28:45] audiobook. Is it new? Have we, do we feel like we’ve never thought this before? We’re [00:28:50] just. Discovering this right now. Mm-hmm. Now it’s, it’s a totally different energy. [00:28:55] So

Rory: the, the, and the mistake I made as a new author. Was [00:29:00] I read my audiobook.

Tavia: Mm-hmm.

Rory: The thing that I did with, as an experienced [00:29:05] author and with your coaching was I didn’t read the audiobook.

I performed to the audiobook. [00:29:10] Yeah. And that is a very subtle distinction. Yeah. But a [00:29:15] massive Yeah. Impact.

Tavia: Yeah.

Rory: For the reader. And even going back and listening to [00:29:20] to, to it, I was like, wow. Like the wealthy and well-known book on [00:29:25] audio, it’s not. Informational experience. Right. No, [00:29:30] it’s an emotional experience.

It’s, and that’s the difference is are you delivering an [00:29:35] informational experience of reading the book or are you delivering an emotional [00:29:40] experience Yeah. Of performing the book.

Tavia: Yeah. I wanna hear your breath. I. I wanna hear [00:29:45] your, you know, the, the cracks in your voice. I wanna hear when you start to get emotional, [00:29:50] a lot of authors say, what if I cry and I think I wanna hear that human [00:29:55] experience of an emotional connection to the material?

Because you’re, that means [00:30:00] you’re emotionally connected to your listener. That’s service. And that’s the [00:30:05] difference, I think, will barely touch on ai, because I think AI [00:30:10] is, it’s a dead medium essentially, but. You weren’t [00:30:15] making noise, you were offering meaning there’s resonance and [00:30:20] frequency in what you did, and that’s why I’m not too worried about AI because [00:30:25] what you created, you and AJ in the booth could never be replicated [00:30:30] by an artificial voice.

Rory: Well, and we actually did use ai, so not [00:30:35] everybody knows this, but because we released the audio as a free part of [00:30:40] our book launch to, to spread the word about the physical book. For speed’s sake, [00:30:45] we did use mm-hmm. AI to release the first version. Um, [00:30:50] and. You know, then we went and recorded anyways. And it’s because of what [00:30:55] you were saying.

Yeah. It’s like, I don’t want AI to replace my soul. [00:31:00]

Tavia: Right.

Rory: And, and I don’t want to rob the, the, the listener [00:31:05] of. The human connection. Even if AI could emulate my [00:31:10] voice perfectly, it wouldn’t emulate the emotion in the [00:31:15] moment. Mm-hmm. At the right. Exact intensity.

Tavia: Mm-hmm.

Rory: Of which I would [00:31:20] deliver it, because I’m not, you know, one of the keys to storytelling that we tell speakers is [00:31:25] you don’t, you don’t retell the story.

You relive the story.

Tavia: Exactly. Exactly.

Rory: And that is [00:31:30] also true here in audio books. And so. I’m not [00:31:35] worried about AI either. I’m sure there’s gonna be people who use AI for their audiobook. [00:31:40] Fine. Just like there’ll be people who use AI to like produce all their video content on YouTube or [00:31:45] whatever,

Tavia: right.

Rory: Whatever. There’s, that’s a choice to make, but I, I think [00:31:50] that human connection is really important and, and. And what people [00:31:55] really want. And ironically, as AI takes over, I think people are gonna crave that more.

Tavia: [00:32:00] Yes, I agree. You’re also giving up owner, um, rights in your ip, [00:32:05] ai. Uh, there’s little intellectual property [00:32:10] protection, so if you’re gonna put your audiobook in AI because you think it’s fast.

Your team [00:32:15] learned how slow and labor intensive it was mm-hmm. To put out an AI version. It also [00:32:20] compromises your, your rights to your own material. So people should be very careful [00:32:25] about safeguarding their ip.

Rory: Mm-hmm. Yeah. So, um, [00:32:30] the. What are some of the other, what other tips do you have [00:32:35] for, uh, reading your audiobook or let’s say performing the audiobook?

Mm-hmm. Since we’re [00:32:40] establishing that as the, as the standard, like what are some of the mistakes that [00:32:45] authors make when it comes to actually delivering their own material over audio?

Tavia: [00:32:50] Yeah. The first step is not recording in the proper environment. You want the [00:32:55] best quality audio. Obviously that’s the medium, so you want it to be.

Um, [00:33:00] the right sound for audio books, which means not recording in a music [00:33:05] centered studio. When you record an album, um, when you put out your next [00:33:10] country album mm-hmm. With your songs

Rory: mm-hmm. Yeah. I’m working on Right. I know. I have been using AI to help me write music ’cause I, I [00:33:15] can’t perform music. Yeah.

Tavia: You want the sound of the studio around you. That’s part of the [00:33:20] environment for an audio book. You don’t wanna hear the environment, it’s just the voice. So [00:33:25] people need to record in a proper studio that is ready for audio books. [00:33:30] When you’re actually recording your book, one of the most, um, [00:33:35] typical mistakes or things that authors do that deflates the energy [00:33:40] is to have an up inflection.

So if you’re reading your book and you’re sounding like everything [00:33:45] is in a question, it. It is very, it’s not empowered, it’s not [00:33:50] specific. It’s, and I hear this a lot with, with all levels of readers, but [00:33:55] especially new readers, they’re asking the question, so you really want to plant [00:34:00] that idea in the ground that is specific, that is something [00:34:05] powerful, right?

It’s a very different sound. So if you [00:34:10] are, listen, if you wanna hear yourself in,

Rory: so if I, if I, if I read it like this. [00:34:15] That makes it sound like a question.

Tavia: Yeah.

Rory: Versus I go, I’m saying it like this.

Tavia: I want you to [00:34:20] be wealthy and well known. That’s

Rory: a statement, that’s a directive.

Tavia: I want you to be wealthy and well known.

[00:34:25] You mean that? That’s something I always think of. It’s like you’re planting that steak, you’re [00:34:30] planting that seed.

Rory: Mm-hmm.

Tavia: So that’s one thing that somebody can listen back to [00:34:35] their own sort of test. And here where am I using that up inflection, [00:34:40] uh, unconsciously, and how can I change that to make it grounded?

Rory: Yeah. And that’s what’s [00:34:45] powerful about having you sit there, listen in real time is like some of that’s hard to [00:34:50] hear. Like as I’m trying to read and I’m trying to deliver. I can’t [00:34:55] also be listening and editing my voice at the same time. That’s where it’s helpful to have like a, a [00:35:00] producer, or I guess you would call that a direct director,

Tavia: director.

Mm-hmm. Um, another big tip [00:35:05] is. Paragraph. Breaks are paragraph breaks and punctuation are your [00:35:10] map. Mm. So when you’re narrating your book, you’re following your own punctuation, your [00:35:15] own phrasing. We don’t speak in sentences, we speak in [00:35:20] phrases. We speak in grouped thoughts. So just because there’s more text on the page [00:35:25] doesn’t mean you need to read like a freight train that’s just at a pace and it’s just continuing to go without a [00:35:30] break.

Rory: Mm.

Tavia: There are, there should be pauses for thought, pauses, for [00:35:35] breath, um, and paragraph breaks are a big shift in time [00:35:40] and space. So you really want to land each thought at the end of the [00:35:45] sentence, let it have its moment and fall to a close. Begin the [00:35:50] next para, uh, the, the next sentence when you’re ready.

Paragraph [00:35:55] breaks go somewhere totally different. Mm-hmm. There’s a, a shift there. So it’s all about [00:36:00] pacing, phrasing, tone. Um,

Rory: this was another thing [00:36:05] that I learned from you about audio books, was that the punctuation. [00:36:10] For an audio book is different than the punctuation for a printed book. [00:36:15]

Tavia: Hmm.

Rory: And you actually took our manuscript and laid it out [00:36:20] differently in certain parts and broke it up in certain ways.

To [00:36:25] emphasize that you wanted it to be read aloud differently [00:36:30] with different pauses and annunciation than it would be read [00:36:35] quietly, uh, through in a physical book.

Tavia: Mm-hmm.

Rory: Um, also, you caught a lot of stuff [00:36:40] related to like calls to actions. Mm. And mm-hmm. And instructions [00:36:45] and URLs that. Occurred differently when you’re looking at it on a page [00:36:50] versus hearing it in in the ear.

Tavia: Mm-hmm.

Rory: And you, you took our manuscript and [00:36:55] really like analyzed all of that and came and presented, you presented [00:37:00] our own manuscript differently. Like there was a lot of work actually that. [00:37:05] I overlooked or undervalued how much work there would be in [00:37:10] prepping a manuscript that was already done,

Tavia: which you wrote.

Rory: Which I wrote, but [00:37:15] prepping that for an audiobook. Read that. There’s actually a lot to that,

Tavia: right? Yeah. [00:37:20] There, there should be. We’re, you know, prepping that manuscript, looking for [00:37:25] vocabulary. Does everything, are we pronouncing everything? Uh, correctly. [00:37:30] And just because you’ve written the book or cited those studies or interviewed those [00:37:35] scientists or authors or experts, doesn’t mean you’ve thought, how do we pronounce their name?

[00:37:40] Mm-hmm. But you wanna honor them by being correct in, in all of that vocabulary. [00:37:45] You want to translate the visual components in text or decide [00:37:50] this is not translatable or it would be awkward. That needs to be put in the bonus. PDF. [00:37:55] I’m, uh, working on a very, very long audio book, [00:38:00] um, coming up and so we wanna be thinking how are we going to keep the listener’s [00:38:05] attention for that many hours?

Do we need to break it up with a little bit of a music cue? What’s going to [00:38:10] be enhancing the experience, not irritating the listener? A [00:38:15] vocal performance, especially in fiction, how are you going to sustain a character voice? Yeah. [00:38:20] That’s, you know, for hour upon hour. It’s, it’s those nuances that come [00:38:25] from within the, you know.

A thousand plus books. I’ve kind of [00:38:30] seen it all. And now that I’ve said that tomorrow I’ll get a book, something different, something completely different and [00:38:35] surprising. But there’s a lot of prep that goes into a polished audio book. And then [00:38:40] how are you, uh, labeling your chapters? What kinds of [00:38:45] calls to action are you creating?

It’s, it’s a lot deeper than just. Just read the text [00:38:50] and record it and

Rory: yeah, I mean, you, you can see now that just in this conversation there is [00:38:55] a lot of complexity around how does the business work? What’s the right way to distribute, how do the [00:39:00] royalties work, how do you prep the manuscript for it? How do you prep yourself for it?

How do you deliver it, [00:39:05] how do you edit it? All of these things. Um, that’s the difference between, there’s [00:39:10] producers, there’s direction. Uh, you also, uh. Function as a literary, an [00:39:15] audio literary agent in a way for mission-driven press authors, right? We can work with you. And then setting all [00:39:20] that stuff up. And that’s one of the things where we were like, you know what?

If someone’s a mission-driven press author, we’re [00:39:25] just gonna say, we can solve this problem for you without stealing your rights.

Tavia: Yeah. Yeah.

Like,

Rory: like, [00:39:30] we’ll just, you know, we pay a fee. To you, you take care of it, but then the author still maintains [00:39:35] control of their IP and stuff, which is important. But anyways, if you’ve got any of these [00:39:40] questions, uh, if, if these things are curious to you, uh, Tavia is available for you to talk to.

[00:39:45] She is one of our recommended vendors. So if you go to free brand [00:39:50] training.com/audiobook, free brand training.com/audiobook, you [00:39:55] can get in communication with her. We’ll have her contact the info there. You can, you know, ask her [00:40:00] stuff. She can send you some of these. These things that she’s talked about. So check that out.

Free brand [00:40:05] training.com/audiobook. Uh, tavia, any final thoughts that you would wanna share [00:40:10] with somebody who is currently thinking about an audiobook working on an audiobook? Uh, [00:40:15] you know, what, what would you leave us with?

Tavia: Yeah. I think the most important message for me to [00:40:20] put out into the world is that your voice is your birthright.

You are here to [00:40:25] use it. When you’re born, the first thing that you do is use your voice. [00:40:30] I believe that’s for a reason. So I think that audio is [00:40:35] spiritual. It furthers your mission and deepens your [00:40:40] impact, and it is a. Transformative [00:40:45] superpower. Mm. So I’m honored to have worked with you and heard your voice in [00:40:50] my ear for several days, and you know, your sound waves are going out into the world [00:40:55] in perpetuity impacting, and that is something that I hold so close to my [00:41:00] heart.

So audio books are not just a nice thing to have. They’re a profoundly [00:41:05] transformative vehicle for change.

Rory: Hmm. That is beautiful. And your [00:41:10] message matters. That’s why you’re here. We refer to our audience as mission-driven messengers. If you’re [00:41:15] getting value from this content, this podcast, please make sure to share it with somebody [00:41:20] else who you think could, can learn from it.

We’d love to have your comments, your feedback, your ratings [00:41:25] and your reviews wherever you listen to this show. Please let us know how we can [00:41:30] continue to serve you. I hope and trust that this, this information, this interview [00:41:35] was valuable. We’ll catch you next time on the Wealthy and Well-Known [00:41:40] [00:41:45] [00:41:50] podcast.

WWK Ep 019: The Truth About PR No One Tells You (And Why It Matters More Than Ever) with Danielle Finck 

WATCH THE INTERVIEW LISTEN TO THE EPISODE BELOW PR is having a moment, and it has very little to do with press releases. In this episode, AJ sits down with Danielle Finck to talk about what public relations actually is in 2026, why relationships still matter more than reach, and why earned media is becoming more valuable as AI […]