Author: AJ Vaden

WWK Ep 011: Credibility vs. Virality: Why Trust Builds Businesses and Trends Don’t

Rory: [00:00:00] They take a viral video and they copy it, they replicate [00:00:05] it. They literally regurgitate it. They go, these are the types of videos that are going [00:00:10] viral. These are the kind of topics that are going viral. And then they. Basically clone it, [00:00:15] and that doesn’t make you a thought leader, that makes you a copycat.

I’m [00:00:20] not saying that you shouldn’t do that. I’m not necessarily saying it’s the wrong thing, but what I am saying [00:00:25] is that does not make you a thought leader. Yeah. That does not make you trusted. That [00:00:30] does not make you an authority.[00:00:35] [00:00:40] [00:00:45]

AJ: Welcome to the Wealthy and Well-Known podcast. I am joined here [00:00:50] by my partner in crime, Roy Vaden. Um, and today we’re gonna be [00:00:55] talking about why credibility beats virality. Mm-hmm. And this is [00:01:00] a special topic for me because I have a love hate relationship with all things social [00:01:05] media and all things that go viral.

There’s a love hate there. Uh, but here’s what I [00:01:10] think is really important is like attention. Is cheap, but [00:01:15] trust lasts forever. Right? And it’s like, are we doing everything that we’re doing to just [00:01:20] get attention? Are we actually doing it with real credibility that builds real [00:01:25] trust over time? So here’s the question.

What have you disappeared from social [00:01:30] media, from your digital footprint for 30 days? Would your [00:01:35] ideal customer still know, you know about, you know, what you do, still look for you, wait for [00:01:40] you? Or would they completely forget that you even existed? All right. So Rory, [00:01:45] here’s what we’re gonna do. We’re gonna start with this, uh, idea, this topic of the category of one.

Rory: Mm-hmm.

AJ: [00:01:50] So how do you become a category of one where you are the trusted [00:01:55] expert? That attracts your ideal customer, right? A trusted [00:02:00] customer who comes to you because of your credibility and your trust, not just because they saw [00:02:05] you on a viral cat video.

Rory: Mm-hmm. Yes. So I think [00:02:10] I would start the conversation to go, how do you do that versus how do you go [00:02:15] viral?

The way that you go viral. The most common way that people go viral [00:02:20] today is they take a viral video and they copy it. [00:02:25] They replicate it. They literally regurgitate it. They go, these are the types of [00:02:30] videos that are going viral. These are the kind of topics that are going viral. And then they. [00:02:35] Basically clone it.

And that doesn’t make you a thought leader. That [00:02:40] makes you a copycat. I’m not saying that you shouldn’t do that. I’m not necessarily saying it’s the [00:02:45] wrong thing, but what I am saying is that does not make you a thought leader. Yeah. That does [00:02:50] not make you trusted. That does not make you an authority. That does not make you [00:02:55] credible.

It, it makes, makes you, it makes you a commentator. It makes you a commentator. It makes you a copycat. You’re, you’re a [00:03:00] clone, like literally cloning now.

AJ: Or you go on. But is that [00:03:05] bad?

Rory: I don’t think it’s always bad. Um, I think [00:03:10] there’s a lot of wisdom to going, look, we’re there, there is a war for attention, and you’re going, [00:03:15] how do you get attention?

Well, you can pay for it, but if you’re not rich, then how do you get it? You have to earn it. You gotta [00:03:20] figure out a way. So I, I, I’m, I’m not necessarily against it. I am against. Plagiarism.

AJ: Mm-hmm. [00:03:25]

Rory: Uh, like verbatim plagiarism. And I would say I have a general [00:03:30] distaste for it personally. Like I would never trust somebody where I go, like, I [00:03:35] literally saw almost that exact same video from somebody else like.

Six weeks ago or [00:03:40] whatever. And that is what is, what is happening a lot right now. So,

AJ: so,

Rory: but [00:03:45] at the same time we do, we research viral videos to identify topics [00:03:50] because that tells you what the public is interested in. Right? So there’s a, there’s a balance there.

AJ: So, yeah. So I guess what I [00:03:55] was gonna ask is, you know, that old saying that’ll quote, if it ain’t broke, don’t [00:04:00] fix it.

Right? And not a little bit of this, of like, well, hey, everyone has figured out. Like this is what [00:04:05] goes viral. This is what works. Um. What, where, where’s the [00:04:10] line? Like that feels like a lot of gray area

Rory: of, of what you’re, you’re saying you should do that. [00:04:15]

AJ: I’m asking.

Rory: Well, I think, I think that there’s a difference.

There’s a [00:04:20] difference between attention and authority.

AJ: Mm-hmm.

Rory: Modeling [00:04:25] or mimicking viral patterns is a way to get attention [00:04:30] and to the extent that attention is deserved and appropriate. I don’t think there’s [00:04:35] anything wrong with it, but I don’t believe that’s the way to build authority. It’s it’s [00:04:40] smoke.

It’s. It’s smoke and mirrors, right? Because even if I have lots of followers and you think I know what I’m talking [00:04:45] about, the moment we actually engage and you find out, oh, I don’t actually [00:04:50] really know anything, I’m just parroting stuff from other people. You can’t build a [00:04:55] business that way. You can’t build a brand that way.

It’s the difference between a social [00:05:00] media following. And an actual brand that lasts the test of time, [00:05:05] right? Speakers try to hack, uh, this, where they’re like, well, I’m gonna hack the [00:05:10] algorithm. So when you put you search, best keynote speaker, my name pops up. Okay. I’m [00:05:15] not against that technique, but I’m telling you,

AJ: once you get on stage,

Rory: once you get on stage, [00:05:20] you can’t fake it.

And if you, if, if you come on stage and then somebody comes out there either [00:05:25] before you or after you who is a real professional, you’re gonna be embarrassed. You’re [00:05:30] going to, you’re going to look so you can trick people. For a while, [00:05:35] right? You can trick people to get attention, but you can’t trick people long-term into [00:05:40] building authority.

You have to be a person of substance. You have to be a true thought leader. And so what we [00:05:45] do at Brand Builders Group, honestly, I would say is a balance. It’s a blend of attention and [00:05:50] authority, but I would say we have a strong disposition towards authority [00:05:55] driving things towards trust, building things towards credibility and [00:06:00] virality as kind of like secondary in nature.

AJ: You know what I. Takeaway from what I just [00:06:05] heard you say, and I don’t think I’ve ever thought about it this exact way, is that virality may build [00:06:10] your audience, but credibility and authority actually builds your business.

Rory: [00:06:15] Hmm.

AJ: And I think those are really two distinct things that people get confused often.[00:06:20]

Like do more followers equal more business. Not [00:06:25] necessarily, uh, sometimes, but there’s no direct correlation per se, [00:06:30] unless you’re actually talking about things that relate to your business, to your authority, to your credibility, and are you [00:06:35] talking to your target audience versus whatever went viral?

Rory: And do you [00:06:40] have a real like system of business?

So I think a lot of people today put a lot of [00:06:45] emphasis on systems and processes and strategies to attract [00:06:50] attention,

AJ: right?

Rory: And they don’t put the same rigor into the systems and processes and [00:06:55] methodology to deliver client results.

AJ: Amen.

Rory: So they bring a lot of people. [00:07:00] Then nobody transforms. Nobody. You know, they, they charge whatever [00:07:05] they, they, they charge the most they can, they make short term money and then the thing falls [00:07:10] apart and they can’t figure out why.

And they’re like, oh, well, leads are more expensive. It’s like, no, because, because your business [00:07:15] isn’t built on solid principles. Okay. And real expertise.

AJ: So let’s go back to this question of this [00:07:20] becoming this category of one, which I love this idea of like virality versus true authority. [00:07:25] Mm-hmm. And okay.

Define for us then, what is true [00:07:30] authority and what’s the difference when it comes to this digital ecosystem that we’re all [00:07:35] living in?

Rory: Yeah, so I think true authority comes [00:07:40] from a track record of results. The number one place that authority comes from is [00:07:45] a track record of results. Of results, and I think that track record starts in your own [00:07:50] life and your ability to produce a result.

And then it is. [00:07:55] You know, further expanded by your ability to create that result in the [00:08:00] lives of others, right? It’s why on the inside cover of this book it says. You’re most powerfully [00:08:05] positioned to serve the person you once were. It’s why that’s become such a mantra for our community and [00:08:10] our members is because we’re going, that may not be the way to go viral the [00:08:15] fastest.

It is the way to build a business the fastest. Your [00:08:20] credibility doesn’t come from. It also doesn’t come from trite, things like that you’ve been in the media or [00:08:25] that you got a fancy degree from a big school or your social media following, or who your [00:08:30] friends are. It comes from the actual ability to deliver results, [00:08:35] and that isn’t necessarily the same thing that gets you massive [00:08:40] attention.

AJ: Okay. I have a question for you going off script a little bit. Why not? [00:08:45] Like why doesn’t real authority, real expertise, real thought [00:08:50] leadership, why doesn’t that attract attention? Why doesn’t that go viral?

Rory: [00:08:55] Because viral is all [00:09:00] about the unexpected, right? Viral is about the sensational [00:09:05] viral is about. The, the most emotional, it’s the, [00:09:10] it’s the most unusual vi viral is, um, I mean sensational would be [00:09:15] the word.

Viral.

AJ: Go ahead.

Rory: Viral tends to happen at the extremes, but [00:09:20] success. Tends to be about being brilliant at the basics, focusing on [00:09:25] the fundamentals, mastering the things. Most of success in life [00:09:30] comes from doing the unsexy things really well, and [00:09:35] unsexy doesn’t go viral. That’s, that’s why real authority, [00:09:40] real thought leadership often doesn’t go viral because real authority and real thought leadership is [00:09:45] focused on creating a transformation and a result.

And that’s usually being brilliant at the [00:09:50] basics, not attracting attention, which is a bunch of random stuff we’ve never heard. That’s so like, [00:09:55] you know, captivating. And so, you know, there can be a blend of both. But that’s, that’s [00:10:00] how I would answer that question.

AJ: Yeah, it’s interesting, like the way I interpret that is almost, it’s [00:10:05] like.

At the basics, uh, being successful is almost [00:10:10] boring. It’s like the true keys, uh, to success. The [00:10:15] fundamentals of like what makes you successful are pretty boring. They’re [00:10:20] consistent. They’re, uh, repetitive, they’re boring.

Rory: I mean, look at [00:10:25] our, our first book, take the Stairs. Like that is the truth. You want to be, you want to know how to be [00:10:30] successful in life.

Read that book. It’s never changed. It never will change. Yeah. Everything in there is [00:10:35] timeless. That book doesn’t go, doesn’t go viral because. It’s not what [00:10:40] people want to hear, it’s what they need to hear. And I think that’s just a big [00:10:45] difference. It’s a difference between media, by the way, right? Media is not in the business of [00:10:50] accuracy.

Yeah. Media is not in the business of truth. Media is not in the business of transformation. [00:10:55] Media is in the business of attention, and the more polarizing, the more [00:11:00] emotional, the more controversial, the more unusual, the more sensational, the more people pay [00:11:05] attention and they make money from attention because they make money on advertising.

When you’re building a [00:11:10] brand, though, you’re building a sustainable, I deliver a result. That comes [00:11:15] from the fact that hard work, hard

AJ: work, and time,

Rory: and time and and experience.

AJ: [00:11:20] People don’t love hearing that.

Rory: No, they don’t. They don’t, it’s not, at least, it’s just not what they pay [00:11:25] attention to,

AJ: but yet it is the truth.

Rory: Absolutely. Now, the [00:11:30] good news about that is that anybody, you know, if you’re struggling in your business right now and [00:11:35] you’re, you’re scared and you’re like, I don’t know where to turn. I don’t know what to do. You should have faith that you [00:11:40] go. If you find someone who knows and who’s been successful, they will tell you.[00:11:45]

These are the principles. These are the basics. And if you master these things, you [00:11:50] can’t not succeed. Like it’s impossible. Like the [00:11:55] principles. The success principles are true in every walk of life and in every [00:12:00] department or function of a business. And if you do them well. You will win [00:12:05] eventually, but people waste all their time chasing a bunch of like [00:12:10] sensational garbage.

Right.

AJ: So let’s talk about some of these basics that you’re talking about doing work. ’cause some people might be listening going, what [00:12:15] are these basics? What are, yeah. Tell me what are the basics? Gimme the boring stuff. Um, so let’s talk about the [00:12:20] boring stuff for a minute, because I think if that’s really where true authority.

Comes [00:12:25] from, and that’s where credibility comes from, thus trust, right? And those are the true [00:12:30] building blocks. Then let’s talk about those for a minute. I think it’s worthwhile to, you know, explore [00:12:35] well, how can we have this combination of the truth and the basics and the [00:12:40] fundamentals, and how do we actually make that go viral today?

What I would love to see something going viral [00:12:45] is telling the truth of like, it takes time. And hard work [00:12:50] and discipline, like I’d love for that to be a message that’s preached a little bit more. It might not be the [00:12:55] sexy one, but it is a true one. Um, but let’s talk about the basics. What are they? So when you say, Hey, [00:13:00] doesn’t matter.

Who tells you this? Like these are the timeless principles of success. These [00:13:05] are the basic building blocks of true business. What they,

Rory: yeah, so I mean, it depends [00:13:10] on what the context is. If we’re going, are we talking about there’s, there’s principles of sales, [00:13:15] there’s principles of marketing, right? So we teach.

Eight figure entrepreneur. We teach that [00:13:20] every business is, has eight functions. Eight doesn’t matter if you have one person or you [00:13:25] have a hundred thousand employees, there’s eight functions. I would argue that [00:13:30] marketing sales. Fulfillment, customer service, hr, [00:13:35] finance, administration, operations, and it all have fundamentals for those things.[00:13:40]

If you’re talking about personal development, right? That would be more like the Take the Stairs book. These are the, the [00:13:45] truths of success of personal development. If you talked about the principles of time management, I would [00:13:50] say that’s what my second book was all about. Uh, you know, five permissions to multiply your Time.[00:13:55]

If you wanna know the principles of being successful at personal branding, that’s what this is. And [00:14:00] by the way. I actually think if you look at our life story, if you look at the [00:14:05] arc of our career in many ways we’re like the tortoise in the [00:14:10] tortoise versus the hare. We teach truths. We talk about [00:14:15] principles.

We don’t focus first on gaining attention. We’ve [00:14:20] played the long game and that shows up in our life in how we live and [00:14:25] the family we have and, and the various things that God has blessed us with. But [00:14:30] one thing we have not done is accumulated massive large audiences. Mm-hmm. [00:14:35] And I think hopefully that’s in invigorating for some people to [00:14:40] go, oh, the sooner I stop chasing the glamor and the glitz of just [00:14:45] attention.

And the sooner I dig my heels in and go, I’m gonna, I’m gonna, [00:14:50] I’m gonna focus on principles and living principles in my life and teaching [00:14:55] principles in my business. I can build a life changing [00:15:00] business. Um, but it, it also, you know, it doesn’t happen overnight. ’cause it never happens overnight. Never happens [00:15:05] overnight.

But it’s just no one wants to hear the truth.

AJ: But I wanna pick one of those topics. Okay. So since we’re kind of talking about [00:15:10] authority, thought leadership, credibility mm-hmm. Like, if you were gonna go, here are the basics of building true [00:15:15] thought leadership.

Rory: Mm-hmm.

AJ: Let’s, let’s dig in on that one.

Rory: Okay. So I, [00:15:20] I think research and results are the two.

Ultimate sources I [00:15:25] think of, of authority, and I think results is more important, right? I personally would [00:15:30] take advice from an entrepreneur who sold their business for millions of dollars over a [00:15:35] professor at an institution who has never actually owned and operated a business

AJ: all day long.

Rory: [00:15:40] Right now.

That’s not to dis just say, oh, there’s no value in academia or [00:15:45] whatever.

AJ: Definitely value

Rory: extreme, and I’m very data-driven as you know, we are very data-driven [00:15:50] and I’m very much into research and analysis as well. But if you, if you look at the [00:15:55] research side, right? The results side is pretty self-explanatory.

Did you do the deal and can you help other people do the [00:16:00] deal?

AJ: Mm-hmm.

Rory: When you talk about thought leadership, my mind goes more towards the like academia side. [00:16:05] I think, uh, reading, writing and research would be like the [00:16:10] three Rs of academic authority. So reading means [00:16:15] I’m familiar with what’s been said in my area.[00:16:20]

I used to love the term thought leader, then I didn’t like it ’cause everyone [00:16:25] used it. And now I’m like, I really like this term because it is the real term to be a [00:16:30] thought leader is to be. A leader of the thinking that’s been done in that area. [00:16:35] So there is an element of innovation, and it’s like to be a true thought leader, I’m [00:16:40] innovating my space, but I can’t innovate my space until I understand my space, until I’ve [00:16:45] actually, you know, I’m actually up to date on the, the thinking that’s [00:16:50] been done in that space.

AJ: And I think this is important because that’s also where credibility comes from. [00:16:55] It’s like you actually know what you’re talking about. Which does require research, [00:17:00] writing and reading.

Rory: Yeah.

AJ: And I think, and that doesn’t matter what your business is, even if you’re listening going, well, I [00:17:05] wouldn’t call myself a thought leader, but it’s like, but do you know your space?

Are [00:17:10] you up to date on what’s happening in the market, in the economy, uh, with your local community? [00:17:15] Like whatever your business is, like, are you up to date on what’s happening with the thing that you do?

Rory: Yeah, and [00:17:20] I think that it’s important because, so we have a lot of clients at Brand Builders Group who were very [00:17:25] successful entrepreneurs and some of ’em times they’re like, well, you know, I know, I know a hundred times more [00:17:30] than Gary Vaynerchuk knows I should have all the followers.

And it’s like, well, results matters [00:17:35] for a lot. And I would say it should be number one, but. Your results also are very isolated to your [00:17:40] specific situation. So if you don’t understand the landscape of your space, it’s like what you [00:17:45] did may not be the thing that works for everybody all the time. [00:17:50] I do think it’s like the foundation, but the reading is going okay, I need to [00:17:55] understand what other people are experiencing.

And the research is really key to go, how do we [00:18:00] put data? How do we really separate a myth from truth? [00:18:05] How do we isolate? Tangible, practical things [00:18:10] and to like analyze and understand [00:18:15] empirically our space. And then writing, I think is one of the lost elements of [00:18:20] true thought leadership and a really critical one.

I

AJ: don’t wanna interrupt, but I, I think this is a really thing for those of you are, [00:18:25] listen. As I was listening, I, I thought about how many people that I [00:18:30] really love their writing, but when I go to hear them speak, like, and this [00:18:35] is like true thought leaders, it’s like they’re so academic, they’re [00:18:40] so well researched that I’m like, huh?

It’s like it just went over my head and [00:18:45] I’m like, wait, what? I thought I knew something and I don’t feel like, I don’t [00:18:50] know what you’re talking about. Like, so how do we not get lost in that? [00:18:55] Because it’s like, that happens a lot where it’s like, I’ll read something, I start following [00:19:00] someone and it’s like, oh, I wanna learn more about them.

And then it’s like the more that I follow them, I’m like, wait, [00:19:05] I’m clearly not their avatar. ’cause they’re talking so far above me that I feel like I’m in [00:19:10] first grade again because it’s so academic.

Rory: Yeah,

AJ: it’s so research. It’s like [00:19:15] how do I actually make this apply? It’s almost too theoretical or ambiguous or.[00:19:20]

Rory: I think you can err on either side of the spectrum. If you go, I have [00:19:25] a results-driven practitioner on one side, and I have [00:19:30] a data-driven researcher on the other side. If all you [00:19:35] know is what you’ve experienced, then I think you run the risk of being [00:19:40] detached from the reality of what other people are experiencing, and you might struggle to [00:19:45] articulate or translate what you’ve learned in a way that’s applicable to other people.

On the contrary, if you’re on [00:19:50] the other end of the spectrum here and you’re just nothing but a data-driven researcher, [00:19:55] you become detached from the reality of what people experience in the everyday world. [00:20:00] And one of the things that I love that I think is a trend of personal branding in [00:20:05] 2026 is that the people who are winning are a blend of both.

Mm-hmm. It was [00:20:10] like, you know, a lot of times there’s like this, this, the thought [00:20:15] leaders for years. Uh, you know, the people who got all the high speaking fees were like, [00:20:20] oh, I’m a bestselling author and I’ve sold all of these books, which I always find ironic [00:20:25] when I find it ironic when a Fortune 10 company pays money [00:20:30] to a speaker who runs a company of one employee to come and teach them [00:20:35] how to run their organization.

That’s a multinational corporation. I’m like, that’s a [00:20:40] big risk, right? Like you’re asking someone who has lived. Only in the world [00:20:45] of research and academia to come and teach you how to manage the complexities of a [00:20:50] multinational corporation. I’m like, it’s not that they can’t add value, I think we can learn something from everybody.

I’m just saying [00:20:55] that feels a bit disconnected. Um, and then, you know, there’s, on the other [00:21:00] side, I think there’s been a really a, a swing where it’s like we really want to hear from people who’ve done real life stuff. [00:21:05] Um. Then there’s all these marketers that have built these social media followings, which maybe [00:21:10] don’t have either, but they have a big following.

AJ: Mm-hmm.

Rory: And I think there’s this intersection that’s happening where it’s [00:21:15] like people go, no, I wanna learn from someone who’s done it, but I want them to also be data [00:21:20] driven in how they approach it. And I want them to be great at. You know, [00:21:25] producing content. Cody Sanchez,

AJ: I was gonna say, who’s, who are some examples?

Rory: Cody Sanchez is [00:21:30] one of the best examples right now. She has the track, personal track record of working in private [00:21:35] equity, you know, working on Wall Street, running her own businesses. She, they [00:21:40] operate funds, they invest in businesses. Mm-hmm. But they’re a researcher. They’re. [00:21:45] They are studying, they’re very big into data.

She’s writing, they’re [00:21:50] producing, they’re producing, and then they’re producing world class content and building an office,

AJ: but also she’s got a growing [00:21:55] platform. So what I hear you saying, it’s like, it’s really a three-part formula, right? [00:22:00] There’s the research, there’s the academia part, there’s the real world experience, and now [00:22:05] there’s this third component, which is platform matters.

Rory: Yeah. I mean, I’ve never said that, but as [00:22:10] I, I think. I think that’s the trend that is happening, and I think Gary Vaynerchuk fits that as [00:22:15] well. They, their team is very sophisticated, they’re very into research, obviously has a [00:22:20] monster platform and Gary knows what he’s talking about. Yeah, I mean, Alex Hormoz would be another one [00:22:25] where, where I’m like, man, like the guy, you know.

AJ: He researches it, he does it.

Rory: [00:22:30] He’s done it more than anything. I think Alex, he’s done it, is more of a practitioner, maybe [00:22:35] a little bit lighter on the research and writing. I mean, he’s written stuff, um, a little less [00:22:40] academia, but very practical. Mm-hmm. Um, and so I think that’s what people, they, [00:22:45] they want, um, you know, Dave Ramsey comes to mind as a longstanding person who’s like, [00:22:50]

AJ: yeah, those

Rory: are great examples.

Done all, all of those, but we wanna learn from somebody who’s done it. We [00:22:55] also want to learn from somebody who is well researched. It’s not just their opinions, [00:23:00] and we’re only going to get the chance to learn from ’em if they’re good at marketing and, and [00:23:05] media.

AJ: Otherwise, we don’t know they exist.

Rory: Bingo,

AJ: right?

Which is where components of the [00:23:10] virality come in. So does it mean it has to go global? Millions of views viral. [00:23:15] Um, but there’s. There is some importance of, you don’t wanna be the world’s best kept secret.

Rory: Can you [00:23:20] explain the, the, uh, the reputation formula to we, I haven’t really talked about that a lot on the [00:23:25] show.

We talk about it in the book, but like, it’d be good to do a review of. What the results, [00:23:30] or excuse me, the reputation formula is and how it works. I think that applies here.

AJ: Yeah, I think it’s, it’s [00:23:35] really simple and a brand builders group, uh, we talk about a very simple formula, which [00:23:40] is results times reach equals your reputation.

And [00:23:45] you can have amazing results. You can have sold your business for, uh, [00:23:50] lots of money with a huge impact and lots of employees and it’s a well established [00:23:55] business. And if. No one knows about it. And that reach is zero [00:24:00] results times zero. Zero. Mm-hmm. Which means your rep, your [00:24:05] reputation is nonexistent.

It lives in this tiny little bubble. Right. And the, [00:24:10] the opposite end of the spectrum is true as well. Right. You could have [00:24:15] tons of reach, right. Lots of followers, but if you have no real [00:24:20] results. Right. And you kind of talked about this earlier. At some point, you can only [00:24:25] pretend or fake it or ride that wave for so long, because even if you have tons of [00:24:30] followers and tons of audience and a huge platform, at some point we’re gonna realize, well, there’s no [00:24:35] real results there and this doesn’t work.

And again, reach time, zero, still zero, which means your [00:24:40] reputation, even if it’s riding away, that wave’s gonna come down, right? And it’s gonna [00:24:45] crash and go boom. And so what we’re looking for is that happy medium of how do you have real [00:24:50] results. That is again, the combination of real life experience and real [00:24:55] expertise, and that’s through both academic research and the real life [00:25:00] experiences times reach.

And for us, reach is just your [00:25:05] ideal audience. That’s your ideal avatar. The whole world doesn’t need to know about you for this to [00:25:10] equal a significant reputation for you. It’s what your person does. Right. And I think one of [00:25:15] the mistakes that I have seen people make. Again, it’s one end of the [00:25:20] spectrum or the other.

Right. And the people who I encounter who are often the best at [00:25:25] what they do, have spent nearly no time building their reach. Mm. [00:25:30] You know why? Because they’ve been building ho, they’ve been busy honing their craft, craft, building [00:25:35] their business, doing the research, doing the deal, and they have spent no time helping [00:25:40] people know about it.

Thus, their reputation is very minimal when it comes to [00:25:45] impact. That’s

Rory: right.

AJ: And to me that’s a travesty because they are the real experts. [00:25:50] No one knows about them and no one is listening to them. And who people are listening to [00:25:55] are the people on the other end of the spectrum who’ve spent all of their time mastering [00:26:00] marketing.

They have spent all their time learning how to make things go viral and becoming really well known for [00:26:05] something. And they lack real expertise. They haven’t done the real thing, they haven’t done the [00:26:10] real research. They haven’t lived the years, they haven’t seen everything, but they’re, they’re telling [00:26:15] something.

They’re preaching something to a huge audience. Is founded [00:26:20] on very few results, and that’s scary.

Rory: Yeah. And I, I [00:26:25] would say a lot of times when people think of Brand Builders Group, sometimes they see like our really well-known [00:26:30] clients and they assume that we only work with people with a lot of reach.

AJ: Yeah.

Rory: And actually [00:26:35] the vast majority of the clients we work with are the opposite.

AJ: Mm-hmm.

Rory: They have all [00:26:40] the results. Very little reach. Uh, that’s, that is most of the, most [00:26:45] of the people that are our members and that we work with are people who spent their life honing their [00:26:50] craft, and now they’re going, they’re waking up to, to, to the reality of what you just said.[00:26:55]

Um, and by the way, if you ever wanna talk to us, if you go to free brand [00:27:00] call.com/podcast, you can request a call with our team and we’ll talk you through this. So, on the results, [00:27:05] or excuse me, the reputation formula. I wanted to, uh, break it down. You [00:27:10] know, we talk about results times reach equals reputation.

Your results, I think are [00:27:15] two, two parts. Your personal results, like your personal track record and then your client’s results. [00:27:20] What results have you been able to help other clients get? And then your reach also [00:27:25] is two parts. And this is a part I really wanna highlight for those of you, um, who [00:27:30] maybe don’t have a huge following.

So

AJ: like me. That’s me.

Rory: Yeah. Yeah. This would be [00:27:35] us. This would would be us. Yeah, for sure. Um, uh, and, and I guess we could say you [00:27:40] directly Yeah. Yeah. So

AJ: this, I’m this category person,

Rory: so if you look at reach, there’s [00:27:45] two groups of reach. There’s direct reach and indirect reach. So your [00:27:50] direct reach is. How many people do you immediately have access to, right?

[00:27:55] It’s you. How many people can you get a message to through your email list, your text message list, [00:28:00] your, your social media, following your podcast, your YouTube channel. That is your direct reach. [00:28:05] You can push a message whenever you want to those people. But what a lot of [00:28:10] the people who have big results.

Have is not [00:28:15] direct reach, but indirect reach. So indirect reach is your ability to get a [00:28:20] message to people through someone you know, through someone who trusts you. [00:28:25] Right? We don’t have a huge direct reach, but we have a [00:28:30] monster indirect reach. We have some of the biggest affiliates in the world. Why?

Because we [00:28:35] helped them get results. Our biggest form of reach [00:28:40] happens not from us growing our audience. Our biggest form of reach happens from creating [00:28:45] results for our clients. And when those clients have reach, they [00:28:50] share that reach with us. And that’s part of why we always say, like in the book, the best form of [00:28:55] marketing in the world is a changed life.

So if you spent all your life getting [00:29:00] results. Don’t, you know, be so heartbroken and be like, oh, I can’t, I can’t do a [00:29:05] huge launch or, or build something quickly. You probably have big indirect reach if [00:29:10] you’ve been investing in relationships.

AJ: Yeah. And I would add maybe perhaps an alternate view to [00:29:15] this, uh, which I think is maybe helpful for some of you who are listening who fit in my category, [00:29:20] which I have a pretty small online reach.

And for some of you who are going, well, I don’t really know if I do. [00:29:25] I wanna go viral. I don’t really know if I wanna invest the time and the energy and the effort to doing [00:29:30] all this online thing. Like, I don’t know that, I don’t know if that fits me. And I would say [00:29:35] then perhaps it doesn’t. Like, perhaps it doesn’t.

And I wanna just touch on the [00:29:40] importance of when we talk about reach, you know, there’s the direct and the indirect.

Rory: Mm-hmm.

AJ: But there’s also [00:29:45] the online and the offline.

Rory: Mm-hmm.

AJ: And we always tell people, [00:29:50] go where your audience is. If your audience doesn’t live [00:29:55] online, whatcha doing on there? Like, whatcha doing online?

Right? There’s some [00:30:00] power. And yes, clearly having an online presence, but if your avatar is [00:30:05] not online and that’s not where you’re looking for them, that’s not where you’re gonna find them. Then [00:30:10] go where they are. And I think we spend a lot of time in marketing in general, [00:30:15] right? Just in the idea of finding leads and building audiences, and we spend [00:30:20] so much of our time talking about the online components that we forget about offline.

Rory: [00:30:25] Mm-hmm.

AJ: And you can build just as much credibility and authority offline than you can [00:30:30] online.

Rory: Yeah, some of the people with the biggest Rolodexes, the highest amount of [00:30:35] influence, the biggest amount of wealth have zero online. Ah. And it’s because they have a [00:30:40] massive offline.

AJ: Yes, and I was gonna say

Rory: reputation

AJ: in the monetization chapter in our [00:30:45] book, wealthy and Well-Known.

Um, I actually did research on this because I was so curious. So I [00:30:50] did a research project on who are the 10. Wealthiest [00:30:55] individuals alive in the world today, and how does that correlate with their online [00:31:00] presence? And of those only seven, or sorry, not, [00:31:05] oh, only seven, didn’t even have an online presence.

Only three had an online presence. [00:31:10] Of which, you know, mark Zuckerberg having a large online presence doesn’t count. He doesn’t count.

Rory: [00:31:15] Yeah.

AJ: He’s everybody’s

Rory: friend. He is gotten to be everybody’s,

AJ: but like seven of them did not [00:31:20] have an online presence.

Rory: Mm-hmm.

AJ: No social media account like they were. Not present [00:31:25] online.

Now, some of that, you know, take with a grain of salt because when they establish their businesses or when the businesses [00:31:30] were established through their families, this wasn’t a thing.

Rory: Yeah.

AJ: Um, so some of that take with a grain of salt, [00:31:35] but nonetheless, I thought it was really interesting of, wow, they have [00:31:40] built.

Offline networks, offline relationships, and they have [00:31:45] quote unquote, gone offline viral because of the networking and [00:31:50] the relationship building and the years and years of the showing up at the [00:31:55] nonprofit events, the networking meetings, the board meetings, uh, being present in the [00:32:00] community, being available to their clients.

They have built incredible brands for [00:32:05] their businesses and incredible impact and incredible income with zero online [00:32:10] presence. That too is possible for us today.

Rory: Yep. Yeah, so [00:32:15] you got, there’s different types of reach. There is, um, [00:32:20] different types of results and those are probably people who’ve delivered results for lots of other people.

And even though they [00:32:25] don’t have an online presence, they probably still have some type of a direct platform. They have thousands of employees, [00:32:30] customer lists, referral partners, uh, et cetera. Yeah. So, [00:32:35] so I’m curious for you. Okay. So. [00:32:40] You are, have never been impressed by celebrities, you’ve never been [00:32:45] drawn to how many followers this somebody has.

Like [00:32:50] you. It’s, it’s, it’s almost ironic that we’re in this business. I mean, when people really understand what we do, it’s not [00:32:55] because we really serve the real experts.

AJ: I was gonna say, it’s not ironic at all because the person we serve. [00:33:00] Is the person we once were, which is the person who’s just trying to make a larger [00:33:05] impact with what they’re doing.

Rory: Mm-hmm.

AJ: Not to become famous, not to go viral. That’s who [00:33:10] we serve.

Rory: Mm-hmm.

AJ: But what was your question? Sorry.

Rory: Well, my question was just like, why are you [00:33:15] not impressed at all with [00:33:20] celebrity fame followers? Or, or why do you think, what do you think [00:33:25] is different about you from like. Is that like a conscious [00:33:30] thing that you do, or is that just like innate or do you think like other, other people are, [00:33:35] you know, they, they think of it in a way or like you just, you just don’t have that like, oh, [00:33:40] I can’t that per, like you don’t fan girl at all over anyone ever.

AJ: [00:33:45] But I never have. So I think there was a part of me that was just born that way. I think [00:33:50] there was a part of me that I was raised in a entrepreneurial family where my grandfather [00:33:55] started, uh, a construction business. Then my dad took it over and my brothers are taking it over. And it was [00:34:00] just very hardcore ingrained in our being of like, success [00:34:05] comes from hard work.

And I think that was from my grandfather to my dad to [00:34:10] us. And there was, there was a, uh. A [00:34:15] consistent message in our house of like, success comes from hard work. And so I think some [00:34:20] of it stems from that, and I think some of it was God’s divine blessing over my life. [00:34:25] Um, knowing

Rory: what does impress you? Like, what is what, what are [00:34:30] then the things that you, as a consumer or a business partner or a [00:34:35] referral partner, what are the things that do, are appealing to [00:34:40] you or that you go.

Wow, this is, this is what impresses me, overcomers. [00:34:45]

AJ: Like, uh, I think this is a great example. So Rory and I share an executive life [00:34:50] coach, um, and he was our former pastor. And when he left the church, [00:34:55] when he left his pastoral work, um, we kind of lost touch for years. [00:35:00] And this was back in 2021, which was probably.

We call it the dark years. These [00:35:05] are the dark years. Um, but these were like some of the hardest years of my adult life. Like it was a [00:35:10] really dark place for me, the dark years. Um, and I finally like come to the conclusion. I’m [00:35:15] like, I need like a real life coach. Like I tried the counseling thing and [00:35:20] I was like, like, this is not what I’m looking for.

Like I need, I need. Some guidance. [00:35:25] And when I started researching and interviewing different firms and different coaches, [00:35:30] I got referred to all these places and I won’t recommend them, or I won’t mention them. It’s not that I don’t [00:35:35] recommend them, I just didn’t go with them because here’s what I found through every single one of those interviews [00:35:40] and every single one of those vetting processes as everyone was shouting their accolades.[00:35:45]

Rory: Hmm.

AJ: And I immediately thought to myself like [00:35:50] that, I can’t even be honest with them. I can even share with them what I’m trying to [00:35:55] do in our business and where I’m struggling because they have it all together [00:36:00] and it was like very well known, prominent firms and different coaching [00:36:05] programs. And I’m like, I don’t relate.

They’re in these high seasons of life with these [00:36:10] huge exits or these amazing processes and they have it all together and it’s like, I feel like a [00:36:15] big hot mess. And I, I don’t even wanna tell them how I [00:36:20] feel or what our struggles are. And then I came across our former pastor’s [00:36:25] profile, uh, and I knew his story of the, you know, falling from the [00:36:30] mountaintops and the, you know, road back to redemption.[00:36:35]

And for the first time I’m like, oh no, that’s, that’s what I need. Like, I need [00:36:40] someone who’s like, oh no, I’ve been there. Like I, I was on top of the wave. [00:36:45] I rode it and I fell crashing to the ground, and there’s light at the end of that [00:36:50] tunnel. So it’s the overcomer story that really impresses me of the person [00:36:55] who persevered, who didn’t give up, who figured it out when there didn’t seem to be a way, when odds [00:37:00] were against them.

And I think that’s what really impresses me the most and why I love who we [00:37:05] get to work with at Brand Builders Group is it’s the, uh, unassuming, [00:37:10] it’s the humble, it’s the person who’s doing this because there’s a calling on their life. They can’t not do it, [00:37:15] and it’s because they don’t want fame. It’s like, no, I wanna make a difference.

[00:37:20] Uh, I don’t wanna be famous. And I think, I think that is what impresses me most, is [00:37:25] like they’re changing lives because they can just help people. Not that famous [00:37:30] people don’t change lives. They most certainly do. But I think that’s what impresses me. And when we decided on our [00:37:35] executive life coach, it was a very decided decision of like, no, I need someone who [00:37:40] has been humbled, who fell and worked their way back up, who had to start over and [00:37:45] who had to refine their, you know, their graces and re get in touch [00:37:50] with.

And I was like, that’s what I needed. Right? And that’s what I needed. And there was a level of [00:37:55] comfort in knowing that this person. Wasn’t afraid to share that story. And all these [00:38:00] other executive bios, it was just accolade after accolade after accolade. And I felt [00:38:05] intimidated. And I was like, not them, not them.

Uh, I’m, I, I don’t even measure up. [00:38:10] Like I would be embarrassed to tell them what’s going on. And so I [00:38:15] think that’s, I think that’s a really important part of this idea of building real [00:38:20] credibility is that you’re really honest with the wins and the losses. Because I think [00:38:25] the losses attract a, a different grouping of people who go, yeah, me too.

Can you help me through [00:38:30] this?

Rory: Yeah. I’ve been inspired by your, your [00:38:35] encouragement for people to share the hard parts of their story and that that’s really like, [00:38:40] um, nobody ever shows up after your speech and says, I was so impressed by all your accolades, [00:38:45] but when you, when you say, this is what I struggled with.

AJ: Yeah.

Rory: People come out of the woodwork [00:38:50] and I think. In a world of technological [00:38:55] perfection in an artificial world, like the more [00:39:00] artificial the world becomes, the more our humanness is our [00:39:05] uniqueness. And I think that’s what you’re talking about. Yeah. And I think it’s just, you know, that [00:39:10] authenticity is, is a big, a big part.

AJ: Well, and I think credibility comes from knowing [00:39:15] like, yeah, I fail too. Like that doesn’t mean you give up. And I think that’s [00:39:20] where a lot of the authority comes from. Um, so one of the things that we wanna do right now, this is one of our [00:39:25] favorite segments of the show, is this is where we get to take a question from our community at [00:39:30] Brand Builders Group.

So those are members, uh, who are part of the community at Brand Builders Group, and they get to submit [00:39:35] questions. And our team picks a question that we’re gonna answer live for you [00:39:40] today. So, Rory. What’s the question?

Rory: Question comes from Olivia m Hi Olivia. M [00:39:45] Olivia says, I’m getting decent engagement online, but it’s not [00:39:50] translating into premium clients.

How do you become the obvious [00:39:55] choice instead of just another choice or creator that people [00:40:00] watch?

AJ: Hmm. How do you become the obvious

Rory: choice? Choice? [00:40:05] And she’s, she’s, she’s mentioning premium clients, which I think is an interesting part of [00:40:10] this question.

AJ: Yeah. So I guess defining what premium is, and to me that would just be your ideal [00:40:15] client, right?

The premium client is the person that you most want to work with, right? It’s [00:40:20] the center of the bullseye. Like, this is the person I’m going after. That’s how I interpret that.

Rory: Okay. Then [00:40:25] you answer that. ’cause I interpret it differently and I’ll answer it the other way.

AJ: Yeah. So I think when I, when you’re attracting [00:40:30] leads and they’re not converting well, I think there’s a lot of.

Speculation into [00:40:35] what that really means. Yeah. It’s like are you growing your followers, but they’re not converting into calls? [00:40:40] And one of my questions to that would be, well, do you ask them to, like, do you have any calls to action? [00:40:45] Like if this is an online conversion conversation. I think where a lot of people miss the boat [00:40:50] is they forget to actually have a call to action.

Rory: Yeah.

AJ: Like we forget to tell people what we want [00:40:55] them to do. Right. And so if you have leads that are. Showing up in the ecosystem, [00:41:00] it’s are you actually directing them to do something?

Rory: Yeah.

AJ: Right. And so, because she’s

Rory: saying she gets [00:41:05] engagement, but she’s not necessarily saying she’s getting leads.

AJ: So I think that would be my first thing [00:41:10] is like, are you actually giving them a clear, decisive call to action?

Are you telling them what to [00:41:15] do next? Mm-hmm. We assume people know they don’t. We have to tell [00:41:20] people this is what you do next. Right? You request a free call with our team. You [00:41:25] follow us here, you subscribe here, you download this thing. Like you have to tell [00:41:30] them what to do. And it’s not one time. It’s all the time.

Rory: Yeah. And I would, [00:41:35] I would say that a big mistake that people make with their social strategy is they kind of go [00:41:40] from someone saw me to, I’m gonna sell them something. And there’s [00:41:45] all of these steps, a few steps in between, right? So first. First, there’s [00:41:50] engagement. Then they become a lead. You capture them, then there has to be [00:41:55] trust, then there is a transaction.

Right? So just because I saw your video [00:42:00] that went viral and it was 60 seconds doesn’t mean I’m gonna buy from you. It’s you gotta give them that [00:42:05] next step, that clear call to action. Now they’re a lead. Then I have to have some trust [00:42:10] accelerating experience, and then I have to have a process for them to actually become a [00:42:15] customer.

Mm-hmm. And if you’re just trying to go from engagement to premium client. That, that breakdown, and a [00:42:20] lot of people make that mistake right now.

AJ: So I would say it’s probably one of those two things. You’re getting [00:42:25] engagement, I’m assuming you’re talking about online, and there’s rather not a clear. Call to action, [00:42:30] or you’re missing one of those trust building conversion steps in between engagement and [00:42:35] customer.

Rory: And our call to action would be to you that if at any point you want to [00:42:40] talk to our team about how we might be able to coach you and encourage you to get to the next level with building [00:42:45] your personal brand. Driving more warm, more warm leads for your business, uh, accelerating your [00:42:50] impact. Go to free brand call.com/podcast, free brand [00:42:55] call.com/podcast and we’re just gonna wanna hear your story and see if we could be a [00:43:00] match to help you take the next step.

Uh, outside of that, keep coming back to the [00:43:05] podcast, wealthy and well known. We’re so honored to have you as part of the community. If you haven’t yet, [00:43:10] please go leave us. A rating or a review wherever you listen to the show and [00:43:15] share this episode with somebody who you think would be encouraged by it, and we’ll [00:43:20] catch you next time on Wealthy and Well [00:43:25] [00:43:30] [00:43:35] Known.

WWK Ep 110: Faith, Focus, and the Power of Being Known: Lessons from a $1.5B Real Estate Leader – Dana Gentry 

Dana: [00:00:00] I remember going to the doctor and they. Prescribed me Xanax at [00:00:05] 16 years old. Whoa. And I struggled for a couple [00:00:10] of years. Really? Everywhere I went I had to, you know, take something, which is so not like [00:00:15] me ’cause I barely even take Tylenol today. But then it just, I mean I became hooked on it [00:00:20] and I uh, I really, really struggled because I was in such a deep place.

’cause I was having [00:00:25] such horrible panic attacks. I remember one time being in Panera and I just. Had a, if [00:00:30] anybody listening has ever had a panic attack, you know, but like, it just, like everything closes in on you and you just [00:00:35] have to get out, you know? And it was just horrible. I couldn’t fly, I couldn’t do all these things, and God [00:00:40] really, no pun intended, totally restored me like he healed me.

I went cold Turkey one day. I stopped [00:00:45] taking the pills and just my life was. I had always been in church, but God totally just restored [00:00:50] and healed my life.[00:00:55] [00:01:00] [00:01:05]

Rory: Hey friends. Welcome back to the Wealthy and Well-Known podcast. I’m so excited to [00:01:10] introduce you to someone who’s become a dear friend of mine, someone that I respect as a colleague [00:01:15] and a professional. I have the opportunity to serve her as a client. Our team does. I think [00:01:20] she is one of the, the, the fastest rising stars in the world of personal [00:01:25] development and building a personal brand.

But she is no stranger to success. She is [00:01:30] one of the top people at Keller Williams and has been for years. Her team closes [00:01:35] get this 1.5 billion with the B dollars in [00:01:40] annual transactions. Uh, she’s worked directly with Gary Keller. Um, she’s been a [00:01:45] part of their team. She runs one of the, uh. Co-host one of the top real estate [00:01:50] podcasts in the world.

It’s called Everything Life in Real Estate. It’s a top 1% [00:01:55] podcast that she co-host with Linda McKissick. Um, she is the author of this new book, [00:02:00] restore 90 Days of Intentional Living, which we’re gonna talk about. She’s [00:02:05] also in John Maxwell’s high capacity leadership mentorship program. So she mentors [00:02:10] directly with John, uh, who also is a friend of mine.

I actually just got to speak to their group. [00:02:15] And this woman is just on the move and we’re gonna talk about today all things about how to [00:02:20] use your personal brand to drive leads for your business, grow any type [00:02:25] of business specifically, uh, professional services and advisory of any type. And then talk a [00:02:30] little bit about her faith journey and her setbacks and how she’s gotten to be [00:02:35] everything that she has become.

So Dana. Welcome to the show friend.

Dana: Thank you so much [00:02:40] for having me. That was quite the intro. Thank you.

Rory: Yes. So one of the things [00:02:45] that I love about Brand Builders Group, which I don’t think enough people understand [00:02:50] yet, is when people hear Brand Builders Group or they hear personal branding, they go, oh, [00:02:55] I have to be a coach to work with you guys, or I have to be a speaker, or I have to be a consultant.[00:03:00]

And I always am frustrated. I’m like, no more than 50% of our [00:03:05] clients are professional services.

Dana: Yeah.

Rory: They’re people in real estate. They’re financial advisors, they’re [00:03:10] lawyers, they’re doctors like their accountants. How much has [00:03:15] building a personal brand mattered, do you think, in your. [00:03:20] Your actual business.

Your real business. You make your money in, in real estate.

Dana: Yeah.

Rory: How much has [00:03:25] been h had a, having a personal brand mattered in that journey?

Dana: It has been huge. And all I can see. When you [00:03:30] say that, Rory, are the personal brands trends that you guys put out, like every slide I [00:03:35] can, I have, I think I have the whole entire thing memorized because I really felt blessed that I [00:03:40] started this kind of early on, I was an early adopter of building a brand and [00:03:45] now it’s, you know.

It’s it, I mean, if you don’t have it, no matter what industry and your [00:03:50] trends show that, whether you’re a doctor, a lawyer, a real estate professional, whatever it is that you look like, everyone wants to [00:03:55] know that you have a personal brain because they wanna see if they align with you or not. And I feel like [00:04:00] specifically in real estate.

I’ve seen a lot of realtors or or real estate [00:04:05] brokerage owners even, they just get stuck in that transaction, like the day-to-day transaction and now [00:04:10] they’re slower and they haven’t adapted and they haven’t built a brand or they haven’t adopted to social media [00:04:15] like they should have. And they’re wondering why their business is changing.

And I’m unlike you guys, it, I [00:04:20] mean, it is what it, this is the new world like it. People wanna know who they’re working with [00:04:25] on a deeper level. And your trends really were what completely changed the game for me when I saw [00:04:30] that.

Rory: Yeah, the data’s very clear and compelling.

Dana: Very clear. [00:04:35]

Rory: So let’s talk about real estate specifically.

Although, you know, most people watching this are probably not in [00:04:40] real estate. I’m sure several are. Yeah. But a lot of people are entrepreneurs.

Dana: Totally.

Rory: But I just want to [00:04:45] hear, in real estate specifically, what do you think [00:04:50] the, the people who are building a personal brand in real estate are doing? Right.[00:04:55]

Yeah. And what are the, what are the the things they’re doing wrong when they’re trying to build their personal brand?

Dana: [00:05:00] Okay. And I think this could be really, like you said, with anybody that’s an entrepreneur, but specifically in real estate. I [00:05:05] think the ones that are doing it right, and I have so many that pop into my head.

They’re being real. [00:05:10] They’re being consistent. They’re being authentic. They are, um, not [00:05:15] making it all about business. They’re showing things that they like to do, the values that they [00:05:20] have, things that matter to them. They’re going really hyper-local and they’re branding themselves, almost [00:05:25] like niching themselves in really hyper-local to where they sell,

Rory: um, like [00:05:30] geographically.

Dana: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I have, um, one of my top agents, his name’s [00:05:35] Roger Wilcott in Columbus, Ohio. He is in my Columbus office. He has niched himself. His [00:05:40] brand is incredible. He’s niched himself so deep into this one condo building that he actually lives [00:05:45] in. But I mean, he’ll, you know, he’s 1,000,002 million GCI agent a year.

He’ll [00:05:50] do

Rory: most commissionable

Dana: income. Income. GCI. Yep. You got it. Yeah. And he, it is because he [00:05:55] has built his brand. He has three golden retrievers. He, they are part of his [00:06:00] brand. I mean, it’s all the things that. You know, people think about when they think about you, like you’ve [00:06:05] taught us. I think the ones that are doing it wrong are posting, sold [00:06:10] another, just closed, had another, you know, worked with this client.

Like they, they aren’t [00:06:15] getting it, that people wanna know about them and what they’re into. They just, it, [00:06:20] they’re, they’re transactional still. Um, if that makes sense.

Rory: So when you, when you were [00:06:25] describing this story, what’s his name? Roger. Roger. Roger? Yeah. We talk about Sheehan’s wall. [00:06:30]

Dana: Yes.

Rory: And how the way to break through is not to try have multiple streams of income or be known by [00:06:35] everybody to, but, but to be known and master like one very small group.

Yeah. So you’re talking about [00:06:40] a real life story of this guy has made over a million dollars a year.

Dana: Yes. [00:06:45]

Rory: Niching down, not a state. A county, a town or a neighborhood, [00:06:50] like a

Dana: block.

Rory: But you’re talking about one block.

Dana: Yes.

Rory: But it’s like if you’re interested in that block.

Dana: [00:06:55] Yep. The

Rory: this is that guy.

Dana: He’s the guy.

Yeah, totally. And I will say, one thing I wanna touch on on that, I [00:07:00] remember when I very first started with brand builders and I was going through this, she hands wall and [00:07:05] kind of working through that and it’s. It’s like a mind trip for a lot of [00:07:10] entrepreneurs, at least in our world, because we are taught you need to have seven streams of income.[00:07:15]

So, you know, at first I was like, wait,

Rory: I know when I, when I stand in front of real estate audiences and I’m like, [00:07:20] multiple streams of income is not how you get rich. Yes. Everybody goes,

Dana: oh yes.

Rory: Like they don’t, that’s like, why can’t believe you [00:07:25] said that?

Dana: But it’s so true though, because, and that’s not to say that later, you can’t have them

later,

Dana: but if you [00:07:30] don’t go deep and master the one thing first.

Like I’ve been guilty of that. I know [00:07:35] one of the things we’re gonna talk about are struggles I’ve had, like buying more offices and trying to do this and [00:07:40] trying to do that to have all these different streams of income when really I’m chasing all these things and none of them were [00:07:45] success. Like none of them were great instead of just like going all in on one.

So that [00:07:50] was an interesting part that I kind of had to rewire my brain around, but it’s so true.

Rory: Well, [00:07:55] I’m glad you didn’t get mad at me when you first heard it and you’re so potable. No, I thought

Dana: Gary might though.

Rory: Yeah, I [00:08:00] know. Well, you know Gary Keller. I remember when, when I had a pre-event call. [00:08:05] ’cause that’s, I think that’s how we met first, right?

Was when I spoke at Keller Williams National Convention.

Dana: Yes. I followed you and [00:08:10] studied your stuff for a long time. So when they brought you in, I was like, yes, this is it.

Rory: When [00:08:15] Gary got on the pre-event call, I was like, I can’t believe that Keller [00:08:20] Williams wants me to talk about building a personal brand.

Dana: Yeah.

Rory: And I was so scared because [00:08:25] I’m like, I’m like Gary. Don’t you want people to like build the Keller [00:08:30] Williams brand? Mm-hmm. And he was like, no,

Dana: no, he never has.

Rory: Like, I almost thought it was like, do you realize that [00:08:35] who, that your team has brought in to speak? Yeah. And what I’m talking about. And he was like, no, that’s why I brought you here.

Yeah. [00:08:40] I don’t want my people to build a Keller Williams brand. I want them to build their own brand.

Dana: Yeah. That [00:08:45] is the sole reason why I joined Keller Williams. Really because, and not to say anything negative, but [00:08:50] I was with a company before re max and REM Max is great. I have tons of friend friends at REM Max, but it [00:08:55] was about.

Re max in the balloon. And I remember when I came to Keller Williams, when I went to [00:09:00] the first training, like I heard, it’s about you. You should build your brand. Because on the real estate side, [00:09:05] clients, over 80% of them don’t know the brokerage that their realtor is with. They only know their [00:09:10] realtor. So if you aren’t branding yourself, which again goes back to our initial conversation of why this is [00:09:15] so impactful and so important for real estate professionals.

They don’t really care who you’re [00:09:20] with. And I say that as a brokerage owner with 600 agents. As brokerage owners, we just have to give the [00:09:25] most value to our agents because the brand really isn’t it. It’s the brand is [00:09:30] about the realtor, them themselves specifically.

Rory: Amen. I mean, the same would be true if you’re [00:09:35] financial advisor.

It’s like, totally. I don’t care if you’re with Morgan Stanley or like, I don’t even understand what any of that stuff [00:09:40] is. I’m just like. Okay. Like Chris is, Chris is my guy, and I’m like, I trust Chris.

Dana: Totally. [00:09:45]

Rory: Same with a dentist. Yeah. It’s like, I don’t know where you went to school. I don’t know like what [00:09:50] your, who, who does your certifications?

I’m just like, do I like you? Yeah. Right. Do I trust you? It, it, [00:09:55] it’s, it is so, it’s so personal. Yeah.

Dana: It’s

Rory: um. So that’s really encouraging [00:10:00] to me. You’re such a great example. 600 agents you have.

Dana: Mm-hmm. [00:10:05] Yeah. All. Although Keller Williams people joke and say, I am the brand builders poster child [00:10:10] because I teach your, I talk about it and teach it in everything because I really believe [00:10:15] Rory so many, again, real estate specific, but then I’m sure this applies to [00:10:20] everyone.

I really think so many are gonna wake up in three years and be like. Oh crap. I, [00:10:25] I really missed the boat on this. Um, and Gary has taught us a saying [00:10:30] anytime there’s a shift in the market, which right now. There is a shift in the market. I mean, you know, the market is, [00:10:35] has shifted already. We are already in a shift.

Buyers finally have said, whoa, wait a minute. I’m not gonna [00:10:40] pay that for that house. Like that’s crazy. So it’s kind of shifted the market around. But Gary always says [00:10:45] anytime there’s a shift, there will be agents that gain market share that they keep forever and there will be [00:10:50] other agents that lose market share that they never get back.

Rory: Mm.

Dana: And I’ve been teaching all of my agents [00:10:55] right now, I think brand personal branding and marketing truly is. Is that [00:11:00] differentiator between that shift? Like if they aren’t leaning in on that, they’re gonna look up after this shift and [00:11:05] say, oh crap, I wish I would have, because I’ve lost market share to the people who are [00:11:10] showing up and are building a brand.

Because another fun fact, the average consumer right [00:11:15] now can name eight realtors off the top of their head. Totally. So if you aren’t number one, I [00:11:20] mean, and maybe more than that in bigger cities like, you know, Nashville or Charleston or Columbus or [00:11:25] wherever. I mean, everybody has a, everybody is a realtor almost.

So if you aren’t building [00:11:30] the brand and you aren’t the first one that they name, then what does it matter? I mean

Rory: Yeah, [00:11:35] that’s totally true. I mean, ’cause everybody, you know, people come and go out of it, real estate with [00:11:40] lots of professions, you know, and, and you go, a lot of it is. I think of [00:11:45] whoever I’ve seen most recently.

Dana: That’s right.

Rory: Right. And so it used to just be like, oh, I forgot and I saw [00:11:50] someone at a Christmas party or birthday party. I’m like, oh yeah, they, I, they could sell my house. But it’s like with. [00:11:55] Social and content marketing. Yeah. It’s like you, people can see you every day.

Dana: Yep, [00:12:00] totally. Well, we used to say it would be like, oh, I still have your magnet on my fridge from seven years ago.

[00:12:05] You know, and so I’ll call you now. But that’s not the case. I mean, they’re looking at who’s telling their [00:12:10] story the loudest on social media.

Rory: So, okay. Honest question here. Honest [00:12:15] question. So, so you were very, very successful way before you found us, [00:12:20] but you’ve been. A very steadfast client of brand builders group.

[00:12:25] Mm-hmm. Why would you invest to learn from [00:12:30] us And has it, or how has it been helpful to you? Yeah. [00:12:35] Since you were already successful, but like you’re going, you’re still [00:12:40] investing and learning this stuff. Why, why are you doing that at your level [00:12:45] and. How has it been useful to, to someone even at, I [00:12:50] guess like at your, your advanced level in your business?

Well,

Dana: I mean, easy answer for me. Number one, [00:12:55] you said the word, I see it as an investment, not as an expense, and I think. Even a lot of [00:13:00] semis, successsful to successful entrepreneurs are afraid to spend money on stuff, [00:13:05] or they won’t. They don’t. They see it as an expense instead of an investment into yourself.

And [00:13:10] sometimes it’s hard to measure that, right? Like you can’t say, oh, I have this specific ROI because I’ve been [00:13:15] doing this. But you just have to think like. I’m not in this for the next three or five years, like I’m doing this [00:13:20] for a lifetime. And that to me,

Rory: Chris, can we get the lifetime agreement? Can we get out the [00:13:25] lifetime contract?

She’s ready. She’s

Dana: perfect. Okay, perfect. [00:13:30] But it’s true because I just don’t see it going away. I mean, for. Well, to [00:13:35] be honest, Roy and transparent, you know, to own real estate brokerages and to also want to build my brand and [00:13:40] do other things like the books and speaking and things, I still have to be attractive.

My job right [00:13:45] now is to recruit realtors to my brokerage. I mean, that’s at the end of the day, you know, I’m, I wanna [00:13:50] impact all of their lives and I want us to grow. And so. I, I wanna continue to build my [00:13:55] brand and be known so that these other agents in central Kentucky, Lexington, and surrounding areas [00:14:00] in Columbus, Ohio look up and say, wow, if I wanna grow my real estate career and if I wanna be in it for the [00:14:05] long haul, and I wanna be getting the best of the best of the best, like I gotta be in Dana Gentry’s [00:14:10] offices.

Mm. And unless I’m building my brand and continuing to invest in myself, then you know, [00:14:15] they’re not gonna do that. It’s the way that I look at it. But brand builders specifically, [00:14:20] you all your content is so. Rich. I mean, you can [00:14:25] like there, I mean, I’ve been almost two years now and, and I’m, I mean, I’m pretty [00:14:30] in it.

Like I, I mean, you know, I’m got my causal through, like I’m pretty in it, but I feel like I’ve [00:14:35] barely scratched the surface sometimes. Like it’s just the content is so rich [00:14:40] and if you at all are lost, even if you’re successful, but you’re lost [00:14:45] in like, okay, how do I even build my, you just, it’s baby steps like the whole way through [00:14:50] and.

I mean, it’s just the best I tell everybody. And I love getting my [00:14:55] little monthly income coming in because I’m like, you need to be with Brain Builders and you need to be with Brain Builders because [00:15:00] I really do believe it. I mean, I’m not gonna say something, you know, that I don’t believe, but it just has impacted me so [00:15:05] much.

And I, Rory had success, but I didn’t know how to chunk it down [00:15:10] into what I now know my four pillars are that have led to two decades of success. Mm. [00:15:15] And I’d never heard of an expert bio in my life. I mean, there’s just so many things.

Rory: [00:15:20] Terms.

Dana: Yeah. It’s just, there’s so many things and I’m like, but what’s happened is with each [00:15:25] step that I’ve learned, it’s worked.

I mean, my following, not that the number matters. I know in the [00:15:30] data the, you say the numbers, the follower number doesn’t matter, but I have seen my [00:15:35] followers grow. I have seen my offices grow. I have seen the level of people that I’ve been able to attract. [00:15:40] In fact, you’ll crack up over this. I don’t know if we wanna say this on here or not, but [00:15:45] I just had a huge team join one of my offices in Kentucky.

Um, I’ve known him for [00:15:50] years. He’s been a friend of mine and he just joined in part from a

Rory: different brokerage.

Dana: From a different brokerage. [00:15:55] Yes. He just joined. Wow. Yeah. They do about 25 million a year in volume in central Kentucky. He’s a great, great guy. [00:16:00] Such a great team. Our negotiation, part of what I am providing for [00:16:05] him is 12 months of a brand builders contract.

Wow. He, he asked for that and I was like, [00:16:10] what’s making you ask for that? And he’s like, honestly, I’ve just seen what it’s done for you. You talk about it all the time [00:16:15] and I want it to be part of my deal. And I was like. Okay. And what can you say? Because [00:16:20] he’s following exactly what I’ve been, what

Rory: you’re doing.

Dana: Yeah. So I’m like, perfect. [00:16:25] So they actually joined on Monday, just this week. They transferred their licenses. So he’s like, when do I get [00:16:30] to start my brand builder stuff? I’m like, I’ll get it, I’ll get it.

Rory: That’s awesome, Dan.

Dana: But I believe it. I mean, it’s, it works. [00:16:35]

Rory: Well, one, you know, and it’s not just us, right?

You’re, you’re in [00:16:40] mentorship with John Maxwell. Oh yeah. I know you’ve done several of my

Dana: friends. Well, you have to have, have an investment mindset, period. I mean, personal [00:16:45] growth. If John has taught me, if you, the, the, um, oh, what does he always say? He [00:16:50] says, you will never regret investing in your personal growth.

Like never ever, ever. Like, [00:16:55] there’s no amount of money. There’s no amount of time. Because when you get better, everybody gets better.

Rory: I’ve always [00:17:00] been fascinated be that. Like, when I first heard about personal development, you know, I’d have people who were like, oh, [00:17:05] those people are just like trying to take money from you, or they’re scamming you, or whatever.

And so I thought when I would [00:17:10] go to an event, it would be like all the like really needy, desperate, broke [00:17:15] people. No, it’s all the like, it’s the opposite. Yeah. It’s people like you and you’re like, oh my gosh.

Dana: Yeah.

Rory: It’s [00:17:20] like, and the more you pay,

Dana: the better

Rory: it gets, the better the quality of the person is [00:17:25] that’s there and you’re like, oh.

It’s the opposite of that. Yeah. And you go, oh, that’s, [00:17:30] that’s why they are there. Yeah. Because these are the people who have invested the most in themselves.

Dana: [00:17:35] Yeah.

Rory: And um,

Dana: people used to, I used to say in one of my. Um, talks that I would [00:17:40] do, I would say, I would talk a little bit about being intentional with investing in yourself, and I would say from stage, you know, Adam and [00:17:45] I spend six figures a year on personal development, and we do, and people would be like, I could just see [00:17:50] their faces and I would think, am I losing them?

Because I was never saying it from like a, oh, [00:17:55] we can afford it. We’re, you know, nothing like that. I was trying to say we believe in it so much and [00:18:00] we’ve seen the return so much that we put it in our budget to make sure that we’re investing in [00:18:05] ourselves.

Rory: Sure. I, I mean, and that’s, um, I mean it shows, [00:18:10]

Dana: yeah,

Rory: it shows and, and as a leader, separate from like building a [00:18:15] personal brand and separate from your own performance.

One of the things [00:18:20] that I always think of as a leader is my job is to learn.

Dana: Mm-hmm.

Rory: [00:18:25] Because the more I learn, the more valuable I am to my team.

Dana: Totally.

Rory: Right. The more I can [00:18:30] develop the people around me, the more I can bring them opportunities. Yeah. The more that we invent and [00:18:35] create things that provide infrastructure.

Mm-hmm. And so it’s not just an investment in [00:18:40] yourself. People talk about that, which it certainly is. Yeah. But it’s also. An investment in yourself is an [00:18:45] investment in your team.

Dana: Yeah.

Rory: Because of who you become as a leader.

Dana: Yeah. Well, you’ll, [00:18:50] um. Understand this, but so I obviously am a person of faith and a [00:18:55] believer and so I look at leadership as stewardship.

Rory: Mm-hmm.

Dana: And so I really [00:19:00] believe that, you know, God has given me these people and these agents and these brokerages and whoever on [00:19:05] Instagram, whatever, to like to steward. And so, amen. I don’t feel like I [00:19:10] can steward them well if I’m not constantly learning and growing and making myself better. [00:19:15] I feel like I would be, you know, I don’t know.

I just feel like that’s not the right thing to do as a [00:19:20] leader, especially when you look at it from a stewardship perspective.

Rory: So, yeah, let’s talk, let’s [00:19:25] go there for a little bit. Yeah. Because your faith, you know, is a, has been a big part of your life. Yeah, and I think, [00:19:30] you know, you and Adam are very successful, great reputation, [00:19:35] obviously, incredible team results, all of that.

Was there a time like, [00:19:40] take me back to when it wasn’t that. Yeah, like take me back to the time when you, [00:19:45] was there ever a time where you were experiencing self-doubt or like when you were going through [00:19:50] struggles? And what did that look like? Yeah. And, you know, walk us [00:19:55] through some of that.

Dana: Totally. 100%. So I was not a good student.

I did not [00:20:00] like school. Um, in high school I had a weird kind of series of events [00:20:05] where I was, um, two people that were close to me. I had two separate times, both got killed in car [00:20:10] accidents.

Rory: Wow.

Dana: Friends of mine. And it kind of gave me, it really sent me into Rory. Like, [00:20:15] what? Just panic. Like I had horrible panic attacks.

Horrible anxiety [00:20:20] attacks. And at the time I was only 17, 16, 17 years old. And so I remember going to the [00:20:25] doctor and they, you know, they prescribed me Xanax at 16 years old.

Rory: Whoa. [00:20:30]

Dana: And I struggled for a couple of years. [00:20:35] Really? I mean, a lot. Like, I, I could not get off of it. I mean, I just, everywhere I went, [00:20:40] I had to, you know.

Take something, which is so not like me ’cause I barely even take Tylenol today. [00:20:45] But then it just, I mean I became hooked on it and I uh, I really, really [00:20:50] struggled because I was in such a deep place. ’cause I was having such horrible panic attacks. I remember one [00:20:55] time being in Panera and I just had a pain, if anybody listening has ever had a panic attack, you know, [00:21:00] but like, it just, like everything closes in on you and you just have to get out, you know?

And it was [00:21:05] just horrible. I couldn’t fly, I couldn’t do all these things. And God really, no pun [00:21:10] intended, totally restored me like he healed me. I went cold Turkey one day. I stopped taking, [00:21:15] um, the pills and just my life was, I had always been in church, but God [00:21:20] totally just restored and healed my life. Then.

And when I look back, it’s interesting [00:21:25] to see kind of how my life was. Then I, I didn’t graduate college, I went to college. I [00:21:30] dropped outta college. I got my real estate license. And, um, I used to be so embarrassed to [00:21:35] tell people that I didn’t have a college degree. I mean, I would go in these rooms with all these, you know.

People [00:21:40] and they would be like, I grad, where’d you graduate from? I graduated from here. I graduated from there. And I’m like, uh, I didn’t, I never [00:21:45] graduated. I dropped out.

Rory: Hmm.

Dana: Um, you know, and so it’s just funny, those things that you carry [00:21:50] along with you, but I’ve been able to just look at every turn. [00:21:55] Like, God put the exact person in my life at the exact time from the person that said, [00:22:00] you’d be great in real estate.

You should get your real estate license. Um, you know, just to then, oh, you should talk to [00:22:05] somebody at Keller Williams. Like, every single thing has just been lined up and it definitely was [00:22:10] not always, were you

Rory: always close to God or like going back to that like whole sort of Xanax season, did you. [00:22:15] Did you pray for that intervention like that?

Because that’s like, like a cold

Dana: Turkey stuff. [00:22:20] I was like a, I mean, I went to church my whole life growing up, but I don’t know, you [00:22:25] know, I don’t, I wasn’t like deep in the Bible or anything as it then, I mean, I would, like, I [00:22:30] went to youth group and stuff like that. Um, but I was, I, I knew enough to pray, to [00:22:35] pray about it, you know, to be like, okay, God, the only way I’m gonna get better and get off of this, or do, you know, [00:22:40] get to live a normal life is if you heal me.

So I just remember I would like. I would try to read my [00:22:45] Bible and then I would really pray about it and then, but I was such a, I mean, I was a kid at the time, but [00:22:50] yeah, and I just think, I don’t know, I’m so grateful because it’s like God has [00:22:55] just kind of swooped me along every single thing that has ever [00:23:00] happened.

It’s just, I don’t know. It’s just, yeah, it’s such a blessing.

Rory: Mm-hmm. [00:23:05] Is there anything when you look back that you go, Hmm, I should have done that [00:23:10] differently? And specifically in the, in the realm of like, [00:23:15] reputation and sort of like personal brand building. Mm-hmm. Or, or, or that [00:23:20] because, um, you know, again, it’s interesting to hear where you started.

Look at where [00:23:25] you are now.

Dana: Yeah.

Rory: But I, I, I’m thinking about the people who are [00:23:30] in the more of the struggle.

Dana: Yep.

Rory: Right? Like somebody is listening right now who is [00:23:35] struggling.

Dana: Yeah.

Rory: And they’re just like. Trying different things. Yeah. And spinning their wheels and [00:23:40] burning out. Yeah. And like, uh, you know, was, was there a time where you kind of [00:23:45] had that?

Mm-hmm. And then you’re like, I was doing this for a long time. I should have been doing this. [00:23:50] And it took me a while to make that switch and once I did, I finally got momentum.

Dana: [00:23:55] Yes, definitely. And I mean, my pillars that you all helped me kind of [00:24:00] develop. So when I look back over the last two decades. What I think has led to this [00:24:05] significance, I’d say success and significance today has been really four things.

It was learning to be [00:24:10] really intentional. I had no clue. I never even heard the word intentionality until I met John Maxwell.

Rory: Mm.

Dana: [00:24:15] So, I mean, I, I didn’t know what intentional looked like. And today, you know, one of the things I teach is [00:24:20] being if you are stuck or you’re drifting or you’re in that struggle zone, [00:24:25] how truly intentional are you being with your time, your talent, and your treasures?

Because. If you [00:24:30] aren’t being intentional with your time or with the talent that God has given you, or even the little bit of money, [00:24:35] or the lot of bit of money that you have, then you, he’s not gonna give you favor and bless you to get out [00:24:40] of that, to keep going. So, I wish I would’ve learned, intentionality way before I did.

I’m grateful that [00:24:45] John taught it to me.

Rory: So it, I wanna, so I wanna pause on that for a second. Okay. So what you just said, because [00:24:50] you’re talking about intentionality. You’re saying you, you believe that if you’re not being [00:24:55] intentional with what, basically, with what God has given you so far. You think [00:25:00] that there’s no evidence to suggest you’re gonna get more until [00:25:05] you’ve basically stewarded what you have?

Is that what you’re saying?

Dana: Definitely. Yeah. It’s biblical and [00:25:10] all and truthfully. I mean, we’re, we are called to be intentional. And so I [00:25:15] think, and for so many years I look back and I was, what I call semi-successful. [00:25:20] So I mean, I just was drifting, like I was winging it at every turn. And it was about me.

[00:25:25] It wasn’t about the other people that I was, you know, serving or, um, it was [00:25:30] truly, it was about success, not about significance. And John, what John Maxwell has always. [00:25:35] Taught and teaches everybody, not just me, but is when you, when you’re, when you think about being successful, [00:25:40] it’s about you. And when you think about living a life of significance, it’s about serving others.

And you, you say the same thing. [00:25:45] And I think that mindset shift, you know, for me, I’ve always had a servant’s [00:25:50] heart, but from a business perspective, especially in real estate, I mean, you know, it’s a [00:25:55] grind and it’s very uber competitive.

Rory: Super competitive,

Dana: so competitive. And so [00:26:00] you can get caught in this trap, and I’m sure this is the same with, you know.

I have friends in [00:26:05] pharmaceutical sales and medical. I mean, all of that, it’s, it’s the same. Any sales is like that, but I, [00:26:10] I think for me it was almost like just. Winging it and going day by [00:26:15] day and like whatever is thrown at me next is the fire that I’m putting out. Or instead of saying, okay, you know, [00:26:20] like today for instance, I don’t really do any calls.

I mean, maybe there’s an occasion [00:26:25] or a meeting or something be, I try not to before 10:00 AM because, but I get up at the [00:26:30] cracks. Same as you, I’m sure. But the reason is because I’ve learned if I’m not intentional with the time in the [00:26:35] morning and I start my day. You know,

Rory: reactive

Dana: or

Rory: whatever. Yeah, yeah.

Dana: Then it’s, [00:26:40] my whole week is screwed up. And so it’s just like being so intentional with your time. Adam and I take the [00:26:45] week, um, the day after Christmas until the end of the first week of January every year, and we go to Florida to [00:26:50] visit his mom, take the kids, and we map out, we do our vision boards. We have our, our month at a [00:26:55] glance paper calendars that we’ll plan for the whole entire year.

We put our vacation. I mean, it’s just [00:27:00] living with intentionality, which to some people may sound like, you know, woo woo or whatever, [00:27:05] but it. It’s worked and it, it works for, it works for me.

Rory: Yeah. [00:27:10] I’ve become very convicted as I’ve gotten older that like

Dana: mm-hmm.

Rory: Excellence is never an accident. [00:27:15]

Dana: Never.

Rory: Like, it never just like, oh, I tried this.

It’s just like, oh, it just worked. It’s like, that’s [00:27:20] never the story you hear.

Dana: Yeah.

Rory: So if, if you go, well, that makes sense. Then you [00:27:25] go, okay, we’ll take that to the next level then. What does it look like? It means that excellence is methodical. Yeah. Which means you, you [00:27:30] plan for it, you prepare for it, you expect it.

Yeah. You know, you adjust For sure. ’cause I [00:27:35] think excellence is messy. Always.

Dana: Always.

Rory: But it’s, but it’s like, it’s not an accident. [00:27:40] You start in a direction. Yeah. And, and, and you have to sort of map out that path. And again, it’s like. [00:27:45] Here you are doing the things we talk about. Mm-hmm. Getting up early and reading [00:27:50] and doing coaching and praying and reading the Bible and doing vision boards.

And you go like, [00:27:55] isn’t all that stuff kind of like cheesy? And you go, maybe, but [00:28:00] look at what it’s brought you. Look what it’s brought me. Look what is like, everybody who like mm-hmm. Came [00:28:05] from such little and done so much. They’re like, these are the things I do.

Dana: Yeah.

Rory: Um, I

Dana: always [00:28:10] think it’s interesting too because.

I think, and I think there’s, I don’t know your background, but I mean, [00:28:15] I didn’t really come from money, so I mean, whatever I’ve had, I’ve, you know, worked for, been blessed. [00:28:20] God has, you know, given, given it to me. But I’ve always heard people say, when you know what it’s like to [00:28:25] not have money, then you really aren’t ever afraid of that.

Because if something happened, you would just do it again. I was

Rory: talking, [00:28:30] I was talking about this with aj, like literally last night.

Dana: I think it’s so true. Do you? [00:28:35]

Rory: I, but because I was just like, I’m like, I’m so grateful constantly [00:28:40] because yeah. Everything I have is always going to be better [00:28:45] than any wherever I started.

Dana: Yeah.

Rory: And it’s like, and I’m not afraid to go back there. And there’s a [00:28:50] few times in my life where I’ve had to like, take some steps, like me too, pretty far backwards. And it’s like, [00:28:55] and it’s okay. Like it, so I, I am grateful for that. Now. Now, [00:29:00] you know, I, where I get worried about that, here’s what worries me is my [00:29:05] kids, you know, we

Dana: talk about this all the time.

Rory: We grew up. Poor. Like we [00:29:10] couldn’t afford box cereal. We didn’t get to go on vacations. Yeah. We didn’t get to do like, didn’t get to go out [00:29:15] to eat.

Dana: Yeah. You didn’t wear Lululemon.

Rory: Right. And it’s like,

Dana: well, you have boys,

Rory: our kids [00:29:20] even So we’re about to move into our new house like on Friday. Yes. And we’ve been building this house for two [00:29:25] years and I, I, I literally, the other day, you know, we’re like doing our final walkthrough and I’m going, [00:29:30] oh my gosh.

Like my kids. Are growing up in a world [00:29:35] that is so radically different.

Dana: Yeah.

Rory: And that’s where I worry about it because I’m like, they’re [00:29:40] not gonna know. They’re never gonna have known anything different.

Dana: Yeah. Yeah. Ours are the same. I mean, we live in [00:29:45] Mount Plastic, Mount Pleasant, Charleston. I mean, it’s, they have like, they, some of their friends get boats for their [00:29:50] 16th birthdays.

Yeah. It’s crazy. But I will tell you what, um, Adam and I talked to John Maxwell one time [00:29:55] about that, and John did say something that. Kind of made me feel a little bit better about it. And I do [00:30:00] believe this, he did say that when your kids grow up with that, of course they’re grateful and I’m [00:30:05] sure yours are the same.

And you know, they like, we go on mission trips and we try to be, again, very [00:30:10] intentional with having them understand this isn’t this. Normal.

Rory: Yeah.

Dana: You know, the way you grow up. [00:30:15] But John said that sometimes when your kids have grown up that way, that when they become adults, they [00:30:20] do wanna, they do kind of level up because they wanna continue the lifestyle, right.

And they wanna continue the [00:30:25] vacations and those things. And so he said, you know, I can’t say that for everybody. And he said, but for the most part, what I [00:30:30] see is like they become very successful young adults into adults because they say, okay, I’ve seen [00:30:35] my parents live this life. And I wanna, you know, kind of

Rory: it keep doing the

Dana: same thing.

Rory: It’s their [00:30:40] expectation level is just higher. Yes. And so I think for a lot of people who [00:30:45] are in a situation where they don’t have much, they struggle to [00:30:50] believe that it’s possible. You know? Yeah. Like I, like, I remember I tell a story all the time, like the first [00:30:55] time that I said I want to be a New York Times bestselling author.

[00:31:00] Might as well have said, I’m gonna be the president of the United States. Like the distance between where [00:31:05] I was and that

Dana: Yeah.

Rory: Those were the same distance. Mm-hmm. Like they were equally impossible. [00:31:10] Right. And I think a lot of people, they, they can’t. They [00:31:15] can’t get the logic or rationale of their mind wrapped around something so big.

Yeah. [00:31:20] Because they’ve never tasted it. They’ve never experienced it. They don’t know anybody who has done it. They don’t know [00:31:25] how to do it. Yeah. They don’t know how to get started, and so it just seems impossible, and so they don’t. I think, [00:31:30] you know, when you grow up around successful people, it’s like you are programmed of, like, [00:31:35] we talk about money, we know about taxes, we start businesses.

Yeah. We hire people, we delegate stuff. Yeah. [00:31:40] We invest in tools and people. Mm-hmm. And technology and whatever. So, so I do think that is [00:31:45] just, I just wanna make sure they’re not entitled little jerks.

Dana: Yeah. We do. We, we do also, we, we, [00:31:50] Adam and I, Adam and I get in the hot tub every night, almost every night, like before bed.

And people have been messaging on Instagram saying, [00:31:55] I can’t believe with hell. Much of a health net. You are, you all get in a hot tub. But I’m like, we, it’s salt [00:32:00] water, like we’re good. It’s not all the chemicals. Um, but every night in the hot tub, I [00:32:05] mean, I would say 50% of the time, that’s what we talk about.

Like how do we make sure that the kids. Are [00:32:10] just not entitled or that they’re appreciative and grateful. And, and I [00:32:15] honestly, I think it’s just keeping ’em in church. I mean, for us that’s what it is. Like keep just keeping them, [00:32:20] you know, and it’s, I was so proud. This has nothing to do with anything we’re talking about, but I will tell you, um, [00:32:25] so my, it’s my bonus son, Adam’s son Addison.

He’s getting ready to be 18. He’s 17 years old and he has. [00:32:30] Had his first girlfriend. And so he was sitting in the hot tub with us two nights [00:32:35] ago and we were just, and sometimes that’s our time to like talk and ask questions. And you know, everybody’s so busy they play [00:32:40] tennis seven hours a day, so we don’t get to ask that many questions during the day.

Rory: Wow.

Dana: But we were sitting in the hot tub [00:32:45] and he was talk, we were talking about his girlfriend. She just went to the mountains with us for Thanksgiving and he said, [00:32:50] yeah, we just had this conversation that it’s really important to us a hundred percent that we’re saving ourselves for marriage. [00:32:55] And Adam and I were in the hot tub like.

Great. That’s That’s

Rory: a great news.

Dana: That’s great news.

Rory: [00:33:00] That’s great news. But

Dana: when we got out all that to say, when we got out, I mean, Adam was like, I honestly, I’m so [00:33:05] proud. He was like, I don’t think he could have said anything that would’ve made me more proud, because he said, we just don’t [00:33:10] know what goes through their head.

Or, you know, especially when you have two, you and AJ are the [00:33:15] same when you have two working parents that work full time, that are all the, I mean, it’s just, yeah, [00:33:20] it’s different. It’s totally different time, but I think we just have to keep ’em and keep good people around them, like their [00:33:25] friends and stuff.

Rory: Yeah. Well, the, to come back to your word intentional.

Dana: Yeah.

Rory: Which by the way, [00:33:30] is what this is. That’s, you’ve got four pillars.

Dana: Yes.

Rory: This is book one.

Dana: Yes.

Rory: Which is [00:33:35] based on that pillar Tell. Tell us a little bit about, tell us a little bit about Restore.

Dana: Yes. Okay. So Restore [00:33:40] started out as a 365 daily reader, and then through [00:33:45] working with Larissa and Brand Builders, I was like, okay.

That, along with running the other businesses that I do, [00:33:50] 365 days is a little overwhelming to me, so I’ll never forget Larissa said. People like Fast, [00:33:55] they like Packa Punch, they wanna read. So like why don’t you just do 90 days? And I’m like, why have I never thought of that? Why [00:34:00] am I trying to do? Yeah, that’s great.

Do 365 days. That’s,

Rory: I think that’s great.

Dana: Yeah. So I change it to 90 days. So it [00:34:05] is 90 days a daily reader of intentional living in your life, faith, and business. So [00:34:10] even if you are not a believer, you should still read the book. You will get a ton from it. Business-wise, I basically, [00:34:15] Rory thought, okay, I’ve had, well in my third pillar that I talk about, we’ll have to [00:34:20] talk about another time, but it’s just the power of proximity.

Hmm. Being, having proximity to [00:34:25] great people like Linda McKissick, like Gary Keller, like John Maxwell, and so many others. Now, I would [00:34:30] say you y your brain is opened up to so much more. So in the [00:34:35] book I shared 90 lessons of Intentional Living. And it’s all just [00:34:40] a lot of people. I’ve met a lot of stories.

Speaking of excellence, one of the stories in the book I talk [00:34:45] about is I heard Tim Grover, the coach of all the greats, you know, speak one time.

Rory: It was like Michael [00:34:50] Jordan’s

Dana: personal coach. Yeah. Michael Jordan. Kobe. Kobe Bryant. I mean, um, Steph. What’s [00:34:55] Steph? Curry. Curry, yeah. There’s so many of them. He tells the story and I tell, I share the story.

[00:35:00] Um, on one of the days in the book of how he got to coach mj, people were like, how in the world did you get to coach Michael [00:35:05] Jordan? And he said, well, I, I sent letters to every, he said, funny story. I sent [00:35:10] letters to everybody. I’m hearing him tell this, um, like on stage at an event that I was at. And I was just blown [00:35:15] away with it.

He said, I sent a letter to every single player on the team, but I did not send Michael [00:35:20] Jordan one because he was the untouchable. And he said, I sent letters to everybody on the team saying. [00:35:25] I’m a coach. Here’s the way I can help you. Here’s what I can do for your game. Here’s how I can, you know, do for your life, blah, blah, blah.

[00:35:30] And he said, several weeks later, I get a call from a representative from Michael Jordan and he said, um, Michael [00:35:35] Jordan wants to talk to you. And Tim said that. He’s like, this is weird. I didn’t send him a letter [00:35:40] like I’ve, I, you know, I never had a connection. Long story short, he gets to meet with Michael.

And at the [00:35:45] end Tim says, so curious, like how I’m excited to work with you, but how did you get to me? And Michael said, well, [00:35:50] we were in the locker room. And he said, I heard all the other players talking about this letter that they got. And he said, they were [00:35:55] saying that some coach was like basically stalking all of them wanting to, you know, to get their business or whatever.

And [00:36:00] he said, and I’ve always believed that the best of the best always keep getting better. And he [00:36:05] said, and I just wanted to know who the coach was that everybody was talking about. Hmm. But that lesson to me, [00:36:10] like talk about intentionality. I mean if when you live with intentional living, that [00:36:15] that is true what he said, the best of the best are always looking to get better.

So you’re always trying to see how [00:36:20] can I be more intentional with, you know, time, talent, treasures, whatever in your business and your day to [00:36:25] day. Um, so yeah, the book is all about that. And also just some personal stories shared in there too. [00:36:30]

Rory: Yeah. First book. Well, can you and tell everyone who’s Larry, because you said you’re talking [00:36:35] about Larissa.

They don’t know who Larry Larry is.

Dana: Oh my gosh. Larissa actually, how do you pronounce her last names?

Rory: [00:36:40] Salazar.

Dana: Salazar. Okay. I always don’t never wanna say it wrong. Larissa works with you for you, for brain builders and [00:36:45] she

Rory: with us.

Dana: With, yes, with you. And, um, she was not my first [00:36:50] coach. She was actually my second coach with brand builders.

Rory: Okay.

Dana: And oh my [00:36:55] gosh, now she coaches. My husband, my friend Tyler. I mean there’s um, [00:37:00] um, my friend Ashley. I mean, there’s so many

Rory: because you’re talking about, are you talking about Tyler Dicker? Who?

Dana: Yes.

Rory: Oh yeah. She coaches Tyler. [00:37:05]

Dana: Yeah, that’s right. Yeah, because Tyler’s like, you know, been with brand builders for a long time.

Yeah. I’m like, you need [00:37:10] Larissa. But, um, she’s helped me. I mean, oh my gosh. Right. You’re so blessed to have her. She is [00:37:15] just the best.

Rory: Yeah.

Dana: And she gets me, which is good.

Rory: She’s, she’s amazing. And, [00:37:20] and, and, you know, it’s like, I’m very deliberate about that. It’s like, she doesn’t work for me. She works for you.

Dana: Yeah. [00:37:25]

Rory: Right. Like, she works for herself. I love, but she works for you.

Dana: Yeah.

Rory: Uh, but we, we, we,

Dana: so she’s [00:37:30] so talented. Oh my

Rory: gosh. She’s incredible. And, and we have so many, Chris is over here. He’s one. [00:37:35] I, I’ll say, like I’ve said this a few other times, like the biggest compliment that [00:37:40] I get. Professionally

Dana: mm-hmm.

Rory: Is how do you get so many [00:37:45] amazing people to work as part of Brand Builders Group and, and it’s like, you know, Lord’s favor. [00:37:50]

Dana: Yes.

Rory: God’s blessing. Our team. Yeah. But it is like, our team is amazing.

Dana: I just [00:37:55] heard John say something. Um, actually it was at the event that you spoke at in, um, west Palm. I think you weren’t [00:38:00] there.

This was before you spoke. He said he was talking, he did his first lesson around team [00:38:05] building and um, just how to build really great teams and how to have. You know, team members forever. [00:38:10] And he shared a stat, I’m probably gonna butcher it, but he said something like. If after six [00:38:15] years you have more than eight people on your, with you in your organization that [00:38:20] have been with you for eight years or no.

That have been with you for six years or longer. So if you can look up and [00:38:25] identify eight people who’ve been with you six years or longer, he said you are like an anomaly. [00:38:30] That pe that that doesn’t happen with people, with leaders anymore. Business owners,

Rory: people don’t stay six years.

Dana: [00:38:35] No, not at all. And so he like, so he was talking about how to foreign to your team members and all [00:38:40] those things, but he said that.

Having long term tenured team, team members like [00:38:45] that is actually what creates other people that wanna be with you. Mm-hmm. Like, you get the best of the best. [00:38:50]

Rory: Well, and it, it’s going back to that thing as a leader. Mm-hmm. You know, and, and I [00:38:55] wanna ask you about being a person, about building personal brand and leadership in a second, but like [00:39:00] to that thing about learning and it’s one of John’s, uh, 21 irrefutable [00:39:05] laws of leadership.

I think the law of the lid, it’s like if you don’t grow as a leader, then people aren’t, can’t keep growing [00:39:10] themselves and then they’re gonna leave you

Dana: totally.

Rory: So I’m just, just [00:39:15] totally curious about this. So you have 600 agents.

Dana: Yes.

Rory: Would [00:39:20] you, you actively encourage them to go build a personal [00:39:25] brand? Like separate of like Yeah.

You and your team and Keller Williams and like

Dana: Yes.

Rory: You would [00:39:30] tell ’em to do that?

Dana: 100%, yes. Yeah. And here’s another reason. Okay. [00:39:35] One, because it’s the right thing for them. I mean, truthfully, that’s how they’re gonna grow their [00:39:40] business. Like I said earlier, I don’t want them to look up, I always tell my agents, I never want you to look up one day and say, [00:39:45] why did Dana never tell us this was gonna happen?

Or this, you know, wasn’t. And I also, you know, Gary [00:39:50] is like, Gary has this magic crystal ball of like the future of real estate. I don’t know what he, how he does it. [00:39:55] So I’m blessed to get to learn from him. But when you look at the personal brand side of things, I, [00:40:00] I just. I already see it, or I already see successful [00:40:05] agents who have had.

And leaders in general, I mean, who have had good [00:40:10] businesses, I already see them starting to go backwards because they aren’t building their personal [00:40:15] brand and it’s, I just, I think it’s so important. And then also I want them to [00:40:20] build their personal brands and have the biggest brand possible and be with me, because all that’s gonna do is attract [00:40:25] more people to us.

Rory: Mm-hmm.

Dana: That’s why the agent who just joined, who I’m gonna do the 12. I’m [00:40:30] like, yes, I would love for you to do that and come over and build your brand, because I want people to be like, wow, [00:40:35] look at him. He’s this huge agent and he’s, he’s with Keller Williams legacy girl. You know, he’s with [00:40:40] Dana. Like, I, I just think it will multiply.

Rory: Mm-hmm. Yeah. That, that’s [00:40:45] amazing. And that, and

Dana: I also think you can’t have a scarcity mindset around

Rory: losing I was just gonna say that that is [00:40:50] another key part of the mentality is it’s the abundance mentality to go,

Dana: yeah. [00:40:55]

Rory: I can’t help you win and me lose as a byproduct.

Dana: No.

Rory: Like, [00:41:00] if I help you win, I’m only gonna win.

And sometimes it It’s more indirect. Yeah. But it’s [00:41:05] like, it, it is that, and the people who are like, it, it’s kind of the old, the [00:41:10] old adage used to be, it was like. You know, you, you should, you should invest in training your people [00:41:15] and the manager’s like, well, I don’t wanna spend any money training ’em. What if they, what if I train ’em and they [00:41:20] leave?

Dana: Yeah.

Rory: And it’s like, well, the real question is, what if you don’t train ’em? And they stay?

Dana: Totally.

Rory: And that’s kind of like how the [00:41:25] personal brand thing mm-hmm. Is like, well, what if I help ’em build a personal brand? And they leave? And they’re like, well, what if you don’t? And they [00:41:30] stay, they’re not, they’re not gonna be growing and, and building, yeah.

Dana: And I’ve been telling mine even [00:41:35] in, you know, I just taught these big end of the year business planning clinics where I actually show them your data trend report and, [00:41:40] and have them download it and everything because I’m like, you guys, this is

Rory: you using your a affiliate link [00:41:45]

Dana: for that? Yes. Oh yeah. Yes I do.

Larissa taught me how to do that a year later, but yes, I am [00:41:50] now. But I even tell them then, you know, I almost feel, I don’t [00:41:55] wanna say pressure ’cause that’s. Kind of a negative word, but there is somewhat of a pressure for [00:42:00] me to Milt to build my brand because I can’t get on stage and tell them to do something that [00:42:05] I’m not doing

Rory: True.

Dana: Like that is not, you know, that would not be good. Like, I just, I [00:42:10] wouldn’t be able to, I don’t feel like that’s great leadership. And so part of the reason why I’ve been [00:42:15] investing so heavily in it myself is because I want to model it for them, and I also want [00:42:20] them to say, okay, wow. Well, if Dana’s telling us to do this and she’s doing it, then you [00:42:25] know I need to do it too.

I just don’t, I don’t know. I just don’t think people learn from leaders that are telling [00:42:30] them to do things, but they aren’t doing them themselves.

Rory: Yeah. One of our strategists, this is [00:42:35] another one of our strategists who’s awesome. His name’s Ben Klarik. He’s down, he’s downstairs actually right now.

Dana: Is he the podcast?[00:42:40]

Rory: No, that’s Matt.

Dana: Oh,

Rory: okay. He’s also awesome. I mean, they’re all awesome. They’re all awesome. Heart seems awesome, but, [00:42:45] but Ben told me something this morning, and this is a quote from him, is he said, you know, building a [00:42:50] personal brand is a professional insurance policy.

Dana: I love that.

Rory: And I was like, so [00:42:55] good.

Because he is like, what if the company goes outta business?

Dana: 100%.

Rory: What if you get laid off?

Dana: Yep.

Rory: What if AI [00:43:00] replaces that industry?

Dana: Yeah.

Rory: And it’s just like. If you have a personal brand, you pivot. No [00:43:05] problem. Yeah. Trust, you know, do the next thing.

Dana: It’s so true

Rory: and that’s, it’s really, really good.

Dana: Oh, I’m gonna use that.

[00:43:10] Well, and Gary Keller has been saying this thing, ’cause all these realtors specifically have been freaking out that [00:43:15] AI is gonna replace real estate agents or replace, you know, lenders or replace whoever. [00:43:20] And Gary came out maybe last year and said, um. He said it from stage and now everybody says it, [00:43:25] but he said, AI is not gonna replace realtors.

Other realtors that adopt [00:43:30] AI are going to replace the realtors that, that don’t. And I’ve been saying that about the personal [00:43:35] brands. Like I, I really believe that. I mean, I, I think that the ones that. In in [00:43:40] any business, not even real estate. I know there’s tons of people listening that aren’t in real estate.

Whatever business it is, if they [00:43:45] aren’t building a personal brand, the other, their competitor who is, is probably gonna be the one to take [00:43:50] market share from them.

Rory: Yes, yes. I think, I think that’s, I think that’s really, really true. [00:43:55] Alright.

Dana: And it all hit fast. I feel like

Rory: ai,

Dana: no, like just, I mean, [00:44:00] the personal branding, obviously personal branding and marketing has been a thing, but I feel like now, [00:44:05] just over the last several years you were like God’s timing on it.

Perfect. Because now I [00:44:10] just feel like it’s, people care so much about it more than they ever have before.

Rory: Yeah. [00:44:15] I think it’s like all the barriers of, of, uh. [00:44:20] Like having to have big media or a lot of a huge team. Mm-hmm. Or lots of [00:44:25] technology, you know, even now, like, uh, uh, we’re vibe coding, you know, we’re vibe coding [00:44:30] apps.

Like I vibe coded an app over the weekend that in our former company we spent [00:44:35] over $250,000 Wow. To build an app. I built it in like a few hours over the [00:44:40] weekend. That wild. And I never thought we’d be able to do that, and certainly that I never personally would be able to do it. [00:44:45] Um, I’ve been using AI to write songs.

This is a, I saw, this is my new distraction.

Dana: Brother or [00:44:50] sister-in-law, or sister or

Rory: somebody. Yeah. I have written five songs.

Dana: You need to talk to John Maxwell. You know, he’s been [00:44:55] writing songs with somebody in Nashville.

Rory: Has he really?

Dana: Yes.

Rory: I mean, because it’s, it’s

Dana: But [00:45:00] who was singing that one for their wedding?

Rory: It’s a ai. Ai, yeah. So I’m [00:45:05] writing them, it’s, I’m writing them. It’s them. But I’m able to use AI to put, to put the, to [00:45:10] the, the music and the voice, because I’ve always thought, I’ve always thought. I [00:45:15] would be a great songwriter because I’m a writer, right. And I’ll listen to songs on the radio and I’m like, if [00:45:20] they would’ve changed that word or this line, it would be so much better.

Dana: Love it.

Rory: But I cannot [00:45:25] sing at all. Like even in church, I’m almost like kind of quiet and like try to be in the front row so nobody can [00:45:30] hear me. ’cause the band’s so loud. And then, you know, music like, forget it, I can’t read it. I can’t, me neither. Can’t play [00:45:35] recorder. Like whatever. But I can now, I can write the lyrics and drop it into AI and it’s [00:45:40] like songs are.

Dana: Did they freak over that gift?

Rory: Yeah, they freaked out. So I wrote a, you [00:45:45] know, AJ asked me to write it for her brother. It

Dana: was her brother, yes. Okay.

Rory: For her brother was getting married and they [00:45:50] loved it. And then, um, and then AJ’s like, I want one for Christmas. So I wrote her a [00:45:55] song for Christmas, which no one has heard yet.

Oh,

Dana: that’s so

Rory: cool. And then I wrote a song [00:46:00] called, uh, well I don’t wanna say it yet ’cause it’s not published, but I wrote a song that is. [00:46:05] I’ve, I’ve written songs based on some of the most viral concepts that I’ve taught in personal development. Wow. [00:46:10] And by turning them into songs.

Dana: And you’re right here in Nashville, like you need to hook up with [00:46:15] somebody

Rory: that, yeah.

Right. So, you know,

Dana: that’s so cool. But.

Rory: You know, diluted [00:46:20] focus, diluted results. That’s like our mantra. So I’m just like,

Dana: so you could just keep it as a hobby.

Rory: It just needs to be a [00:46:25] hobby. It just needs to be, it just needs to be a hobby. But, um, you know, I think that the [00:46:30] world is changing and it’s like, whether we like it or not, it is.

Yeah. It’s just the question should not [00:46:35] be whether you like it or not, that’s completely irrelevant. It’s just like, how are you [00:46:40] going to use this? Yep. And, um, you, we have to be thinking that [00:46:45] way. Mm-hmm. And, and, and I love it. So,

Dana: yeah.

Rory: Um. Where do you want people to go [00:46:50] to learn more about you? Yes. If they happen to be looking for a career in real estate, that obviously [00:46:55] they can come.

Dana: Ah, that’d

Rory: be great. Find you. And you know, if they wanna move an entire team over to you now [00:47:00] we know that’s possible and, and brand builders can be part of the package.

Dana: Yes. Love

Rory: it. [00:47:05] But other than that, where do people go to find you and learn about the book?

Dana: Yes. Okay. So they can learn about the [00:47:10] [email protected].

Okay. I have tons of, um. Oh, what do we [00:47:15] call ’em? Um,

Rory: pre-order incentives and

Dana: bonuses. Yes, incentives. Bonus. I have all the things on there. [00:47:20] And then they can also follow me on Instagram. It’s Dana g Gentry. [00:47:25] And also I did put together a freebie of my exact intentional [00:47:30] morning routine. So if someone’s listening and you follow me on Instagram, you can just DM me the [00:47:35] word Rory, and I’ll send you the uh, I got my own keyword.

Yeah, you got your own keyword. And I’ll [00:47:40] send you the morning, my intentional morning routine.

Rory: Yeah, I love that. Yeah. Um, [00:47:45] so I, I’ve got one last question for you, but be before I just ask that, I just, I just [00:47:50] want to acknowledge Dana, like I love who you are. I admire the [00:47:55] marriage that you have with Adam. The way you build business, the way you invest in yourself, the way you invest in [00:48:00] other people, the way that you serve.

You know that you’ve moved from [00:48:05] success to significance in service. Um, the, the people in your network [00:48:10] and the. Your, in your willingness to innovate. Right. [00:48:15] And go like, Hey, I’m gonna learn personal branding and like, apply that to real estate. And, and what’s [00:48:20] in edifying for me is to see the fruit you’re experiencing in your life.
Dana: Yeah.

WWK Ep 009: From Devastation to Purpose: How One Mom Became the “Special Education Boss” with Karen Meyer Cunningham

Karen: [00:00:00] When he’s about 18 months old, we took him to the doctor and after that he started putting his head through the [00:00:05] sheet rock at our house. Um, and just became very sick and lost all of his [00:00:10] milestones. He lost his ability to speak and just was so dysregulated. About a [00:00:15] year later, he went to a professional clinician and uh, she evaluated him and she [00:00:20] was very not warm and fuzzy, and she’s like, well, he has autism.

He has classic [00:00:25] autism. He has 15 of the 16 markers. He’ll never play with other children. He won’t have any [00:00:30] friends. You’ll probably have to put him in a home when he grows up. Do you want a copy of the report? [00:00:35] So,

Rory: whoa.

Karen: Happy Tuesday. And so I, um, was devastated.[00:00:40] [00:00:45] [00:00:50]

Rory: Hey, if you [00:00:55] hang around here, we talk about finding your uniqueness and [00:01:00] serving the person that you once were exploiting your uniqueness in the service of others. We believe that [00:01:05] if you have diluted focus, you get diluted results, and if you niche down and really focus [00:01:10] on serving the person, you, whoever you can, in the deepest way, you’ll build a great business.[00:01:15]

A big personal brand. And today we’ve got a real life story of a brand builder, [00:01:20] a friend, and someone who is changing the industry and in many ways [00:01:25] changing the world. And she has done this exact thing. She has done what people [00:01:30] refuse to do. She has narrowed down, she has focused in, she has leaned in in it [00:01:35] in terms of serving a topic and a market.

And her topic, when you hear this. [00:01:40] You’re gonna be like, whoa, that is very specific. And so I’m gonna actually [00:01:45] read this ’cause I don’t wanna get it wrong about what her real expertise is and, but I’ve [00:01:50] invited her on the show. We’re gonna talk about her story, about how she’s building her personal brand.

Okay? So listen to this. [00:01:55] So Karen Mayer Cunningham is a nationally recognized special education. [00:02:00] Advocate, speaker and mediator with over two decades of experience guiding families and [00:02:05] educators and professionals through the complexities of special [00:02:10] education systems. So online, she is known as special education [00:02:15] boss, and this is such a narrow niche.

So her expertise [00:02:20] is in. Idea IDEA, section 5 0 4 and [00:02:25] disability advocacy. So she has a clear commitment to ensuring equitable access and [00:02:30] meaningful outcomes for students with disabilities. So what does that mean? She [00:02:35] helps parents and teachers and schools and students who are struggling with disabilities.[00:02:40]

To create individual educational plans. She’s the author of this brand new [00:02:45] book, the Epic IEP, which is available from none other than Mission [00:02:50] Driven Press. This woman is changing the world, dominating space and get this, [00:02:55] she has over a million followers online [00:03:00] in this very, very specific vertical. She’s a friend.

She’s a delight. You [00:03:05] inspire me. Karen, thanks for being here.

Karen: Oh, thank you so much for having me, Roy.

Rory: So. [00:03:10] Tell us a story. You know, you, we say you’re most powerfully positioned to serve the person you once [00:03:15] were. I feel like you are. You are in so many ways, a living, [00:03:20] breathing, shining example of what we want to be about at Brand Builders Group and now Mission-Driven Press.[00:03:25]

Tell us the story of how you got into this very [00:03:30] specific spot that you occupy.

Karen: Sure. So I had, um, a perfect child. Um, [00:03:35] he was born, I think he got a nine on his Apgar at the hospital. I think that’s like an honor roll and [00:03:40] everything was great. And, um, when he’s about 18 months old, we took him to the doctor.

Um, [00:03:45] after that he started putting his head through the sheet rock at our house. Um, and just [00:03:50] became very sick and, um, lost all of his milestones. He lost his ability to [00:03:55] speak, um, and just was so dysregulated. And we started this process of trying to find [00:04:00] out what was going on with him. And about a year later we went to a professional.

[00:04:05] A professional clinician and uh, she evaluated him and she was very not warm and [00:04:10] fuzzy. And she’s like, well, he has autism. He has classic autism. He has 15 of [00:04:15] the 16 markers. He’ll never play with other children. He won’t have any friends. You’ll probably have to put [00:04:20] him in a home when he grows up. Do you want a copy of the report?

So,

Rory: whoa.

Karen: [00:04:25] Happy Tuesday. And so I, um, was devastated. I knew there was something terribly, [00:04:30] terribly wrong.

And

Rory: you said this is like, he’s 18 months, like he’s not even two years old.

Karen: He’s like two years old at this point. [00:04:35] And, um, you know, I was searching for answers and um, I remember getting in my car that day, [00:04:40] just devastated holding this report.

And, um, I thought, you know, if me [00:04:45] and Oprah and God can figure this out, we’re gonna figure this out. Because there is [00:04:50] no way that is the destiny on his life. Like not with me being his mother. That can’t [00:04:55] possibly be true. And so we started the process and one of my friends told me that if [00:05:00] you’re speech delayed, um, you can start school as early as three.

I was like, fantastic. [00:05:05] That’s what we’ll do. We took him, got him evaluated, he he met criteria and we send ’em across the [00:05:10] street with an original Lion King back. Lion King backpack. I’d like to say that and ’cause that’s what you do. [00:05:15] You send kids to school and they fix them. If there’s something wrong with them, they’ll just fix them.

And so he [00:05:20] went to school and a few weeks later there was a knock at the door and my husband called me at [00:05:25] my salon. Um, and sometimes I’m humorous, so he said, I’m not kidding, [00:05:30] which is probably a good intro for me. And he said, there’s somebody here from Child Protective Services. [00:05:35] Uh, they’ve checked James for Marks because he’s been reported that we’re harming him.

She would like to [00:05:40] talk to you. Is now a good time? Not your average phone call. [00:05:45] So I said, yeah, now’s a good time. And she was very aggressive. And she goes, do you think it’s normal that he rocks [00:05:50] all the time? No. Do you think it’s normal that he chew his fingers so they bleed? No. Do you think it’s normal that he lost [00:05:55] all of his language?

No. Um, what are you gonna do about it? I said, well, we’re sending him to school for [00:06:00] preschool programs for kids with disabilities. Well, that’s what your husband said too. And I’m [00:06:05] gonna leave a brochure here in case we take him into custody. And that was my entrance in the mid [00:06:10] nineties, uh, to special education.

As I was devastated that night, crying [00:06:15] my eyes out, I just had this resolve that this cannot be the chaos that we’re [00:06:20] walking through. And so, um, I went down, um, to the school like a lunatic [00:06:25] mother and, um, was, you know, crying and everybody’s looking at me like, I am a lunatic. And this is the [00:06:30] nineties. And nobody knew what, um, autism was.

I remember somebody used to say, do you, does he count cards, [00:06:35] ma’am, that was a movie. No, we don’t take him to Vegas and have him count cards and a pull up. That’s that’s a [00:06:40] movie.

Rory: Yeah. This, I mean that I feel like. You know, the world isn’t always getting better in [00:06:45] some ways, but, but back then, I think people have been a little more, sens have become more sensitive.

Yes. But [00:06:50] back in the nineties it was like,

Karen: yeah,

Rory: they’re, these are jokes and I don’t care and you are slowing us [00:06:55] down and why are you here and what’s wrong with you?

Karen: Absolutely. And so the tea, somebody [00:07:00] called us and reported us a second time and at that point I was like, we’re not doing this. And I drove down [00:07:05] to, um, the child protective offices and I don’t recommend that anybody do what I did.

And I [00:07:10] had my cart and every mom and dad and grandparent with a kid with a disability. That what I’m talking about, you [00:07:15] know, your cart, it’s your cart of paperwork. And I just rolled it down there and I said, I wanna see my case [00:07:20] manager. Of course it’s not your case manager. And the police officer was like, okay.

So we went up [00:07:25] to the elevator and I walked down the hall. My, um, you know, [00:07:30] representative from Child Protective Services and I think she might have been 22 years old in one day. And here [00:07:35] I am at her door and I said, do you know, know anything about [00:07:40] autism? And she said, um, I think when I was a sophomore, I had a [00:07:45] seminar.

And I thought, are you my leader? And that was the first person that day [00:07:50] that ever gave me a resource. And she handed me a card for MHMR of Travis County. [00:07:55] And it’s an agency that helps with kids with disabilities. And I thought, why am I a [00:08:00] child protective service office? And the first person that resources me.

Is this person [00:08:05] and I, um, started finding out information and, and connecting with our state board of [00:08:10] education and I just became in love with these kiddos in love with this law and in love with, [00:08:15] you know, helping parents. And, um, that’s how I got my entrance. I was,

Rory: this started out of [00:08:20] desperation. This wasn’t a plan, this wasn’t a desire, this was a desperate [00:08:25] situation.

Karen: Yeah,

Rory: my son needs help.

Karen: Absolutely

Rory: nobody has. Where do [00:08:30] I go? What do I do?

Karen: Yeah. There was no direction, there was no help. And I thought, you know, and, and it’s very shame [00:08:35] based when you have, often, when you have a child with a disability, parents are ashamed that [00:08:40] their child with a disability might be upsetting your birthday party or church service or [00:08:45] Christmas.

Rory: Sure.

Karen: Yeah.

Rory: Um, so [00:08:50] you start this for your son, at which point [00:08:55] does it translate into. Oh, other people [00:09:00] are struggling with this and I could be useful to them.

Karen: Just immediately, [00:09:05] just immediately. I thought that, remember at the beginning I thought these people at the school, they know what to [00:09:10] do and they’re plotting against me and they won’t do it.

And the truth is, God [00:09:15] bless teachers, we love them. They went to school to teach. They went to school even to be special education [00:09:20] teachers. We as school districts do not train our most valuable resource in school [00:09:25] teachers about special education application obligations or duties. [00:09:30] There were just a bunch of nice people trying to help my son, but if we don’t know those [00:09:35] requirements, you might be handicapping a child even more.

And I just, um, [00:09:40] began helping people and helping them get it right. It was really bumpy at the beginning. [00:09:45] Um, but what I always say is, when we get it right for the child, we get it right for everybody, and we can do that. [00:09:50]

Rory: You were helping other parents?

Karen: [00:09:55] Yes.

Rory: And you were interfacing with the schools?

Karen: Yes.

Rory: And then the school boards, and [00:10:00] then at some point you start getting into these laws.

Right. I mean, as I, as I understand, it’s like [00:10:05] there’s a very. Complex set of laws [00:10:10] that the average parent of a, a student with disabilities [00:10:15] cannot interpret, does not want to read, understand, and you kind of become [00:10:20] this bridge almost to go, Hey, here’s what this means. Here’s how to interpret this, [00:10:25] here’s how to use it.

Is that.

Karen: Absolutely. So, I mean, the federal statute [00:10:30] has been whittled down to 115 codes. If you’re ever, you know, having struggled, struggling to sleep at night, [00:10:35] just read the federal law, it’s so enjoyable and nobody has time to read it. And you know, it [00:10:40] happened 50 years ago, but it brings equity and it builds a bridge over the [00:10:45] barrier that is disabilities.

Uhhuh.

Rory: And then, and then what’s the. [00:10:50] How, how are you engaging with schools at this? Like at this point, like back then, or [00:10:55] even, are they receptive to you? Are they like not, Hey, you’re not one of us. Like, [00:11:00] how did that all

Karen: happen? You know, I thought they were gonna be receptive. Well, we [00:11:05] right, and we thought there’d be an easier, softer way.

We were wrong. I remember, I always tell God that I wanted to be [00:11:10] popular and he said no, I was really looking for effective. And I was, no, I was going for popular [00:11:15] because I’m coming into an agency, a bureaucracy. Um, and they do things a [00:11:20] certain way,

Rory: right?

Karen: And if I bring you in in January and we want funding for your child [00:11:25] for disabilities, all that money was spent July 1st of the fiscal year.[00:11:30]

The money’s not there, the hands aren’t there, the services aren’t there. And [00:11:35] so people were getting a child’s individualized education program, but it was very [00:11:40] baseline. It didn’t have specificity, it wasn’t tied to the child’s unique circumstances. [00:11:45] And so, you know, my job is to walk alongside parents. I don’t think there’s a greater honor than to walk [00:11:50] alongside a child’s educational healing and make sure that what we provide to them in an [00:11:55] epic IEP changes their life for the next 80 years.

Rory: [00:12:00] So when did this become professional, I guess? You know, it’s like it starts [00:12:05] personal. People start asking, you’re kind of like sticking your nose in places, getting stuff done, [00:12:10] knocking down walls.

Karen: Yeah.

Rory: And then at some point it tips into like. [00:12:15] This is, this is my, not just, it’s a calling and it’s a career.

When did that, [00:12:20] when did that happen?

Karen: Probably about 2010. And you know, I always,

Rory: okay, so this is like [00:12:25] 15, 20 years later.

Karen: Yes. And it’s one of those things I couldn’t not do it [00:12:30] right. And that’s how you know what you’re supposed to do. Like you just couldn’t not do it. If this wasn’t a [00:12:35] vocation, I would still want to equip teams and parents and [00:12:40] advocates serving kiddos.

I couldn’t get it outta my bones.

Rory: So you started your own business [00:12:45] right out of the gate. At this point you’re like, other people need and so and so your [00:12:50] son now is. Out of the school system. Yeah. Right, right. So, so that happens and you realize, [00:12:55] okay, there’s a need here.

Karen: Yes.

Rory: And I can do this. And so is special education boss [00:13:00] born right away, 2010 And like,

Karen: we didn’t call it that, but yes, they invented [00:13:05] this thing called social media.

I don’t know if you’ve heard of it. It’s on the interweb. Um, it was more of a [00:13:10] panic. I wanted people, the masses to know the truth. And there’s so [00:13:15] much misinformation in schools about special education. It’s not malicious. Just [00:13:20] as Bob was trained by Carol, who was trained by Terry, who was trained by John, none of [00:13:25] them know anything about special education law and they’re just sort of lumbering through it.

And [00:13:30] the specificity, that specificity that you get with an epic IP changes a child’s [00:13:35] entire life. It gives a family hope and it gives a child a future. And I think often [00:13:40] we don’t consider children with disabilities equal ROI on our investment. [00:13:45] You know, kids with disabilities are probably not going to be a school board meeting photo op, [00:13:50] but you know what, those children have the same value as any other child.

Rory: [00:13:55] So did you get on social media right away? Is that where this all kind of

Karen: started? I think I was looking back and um, [00:14:00] my original email was Karen Haha, mayor, 2000 at Yahoo. I, [00:14:05] I felt like that had a flow to it and, um. I just, yeah, I was just sort of, you know, [00:14:10] the mouth of the south and I still am. I’m like, that’s not true.

This isn’t true. This [00:14:15] happened at my meeting. This is how you shut it down. And hopefully I’m a little more refined now

Rory: on [00:14:20] social though.

Karen: Oh yeah. If I’ve got something to say, I’m just gonna say it. Uhhuh. Yeah. I don’t make it pretty and [00:14:25] pristine. I make it powerful.

Rory: Okay, so, so you were early to social media.

Karen: Yes.

Rory: [00:14:30] Did you ever think you would have. Million followers? No.

Karen: Oh, no, no, no, no, no, [00:14:35] no. And it really exploded Friday, February 13th, 2020. [00:14:40] Our governor came on the news and he said schools were closed down for the pandemic. And in that moment I [00:14:45] realized that I was unemployed. That’s what I do. I go into school district two and three times a day [00:14:50] serving families in person.

I represent the the family with a child with disability. And we go into the school and have [00:14:55] the meeting and I was like, oh my gosh, now I’m bankrupt. Unemployed. And my two [00:15:00] boys went down to Ace Hardware and they got me this thing called an ethernet cord. I don’t know if they have ’em here in [00:15:05] Nashville, but it takes the ether and the net and then their one accord.

And then I was like, go tell it [00:15:10] on a mountain. And I would go live every week night at nine o’clock because I felt like that’s a good time [00:15:15] with a little extra concealer. And I was like, we’re not doing this. We’re not doing this. And then it [00:15:20] just opened this bridge for me to serve families across the nation.

Rory: Okay. So, but that’s like 10 years [00:15:25] later. So. So you’re saying for 10 years you were serving families like [00:15:30] one at a time.

Karen: Drive to this school district, drive to this junior high. You can [00:15:35] Pringles get to this school district, have a Red Bull, do it again tomorrow,

Rory: and the, and the parents are hiring you.

Karen: [00:15:40] Yes.

Schools are not wanting me to come in and, you know, turn over the [00:15:45] apple cart for some reason.

Rory: So the parents are hiring you to help navigate and apply the [00:15:50] law, make sure the school’s applying the law, create a plan, right. For their kid. And that’s absolutely, but then when [00:15:55] schools get shut down, you’re like.

Oh, well that just disappeared overnight. And that’s really when you [00:16:00] leaned into the, to, to social and the internet.

Karen: No, it, it, it didn’t disappear. It exploded it. So [00:16:05] now I’m serving families in the Kodiak Islands and Miami-Dade County on the same day.

Rory: What you knew [00:16:10] up until that point

Karen: Yeah,

Rory: absolutely. Was like gone.

Karen: Yes.

Rory: And then all of a sudden [00:16:15] it’s like, oh, it’s not gone. Yeah. It actually just exploded.

Karen: Yeah. Yeah.

Rory: And that’s ’cause you like grabbed the [00:16:20] microphone and the ethernet cable, but like. You still didn’t have a business. So did you have a, I [00:16:25] mean, you didn’t have a business, your business model was

Karen: My business model gone, was like, I’m just gonna tell all these people.

And [00:16:30] then I started doing these little, um, trainings inside of a LaQuinta [00:16:35] on the freeway and you know, eight or five people would come.

Rory: Three. Great speaker has a LaQuinta story. No,

Karen: LaQuinta. Yeah. [00:16:40] That’s a

Rory: part of the

Karen: Yeah. Yeah. No food. But, um, burnt coffee. Uhhuh. Yeah. Yeah. [00:16:45]

Rory: So you were hosting trainings? Yeah.

Okay. So, so you’re on social, so your whole business model now [00:16:50] is gone.

Karen: Yeah.

Rory: Um. You take the mic, you start [00:16:55] talking, and then you realize, okay, I’m just gonna start selling. You are already doing a business [00:17:00] to consumer model.

Karen: Right?

Rory: And then you just thought, okay, I’m gonna basically do more of like an [00:17:05] education versus like a, like a consulting kind of relationship.

Karen: Right? So I wanna train other special education bosses. [00:17:10] There’s eight and a half million children in America with an IEP. We need advocates. [00:17:15] Advocates don’t exist for kids with disabilities. We need them. And so I’d go train, you know, eight [00:17:20] people on the weekend with my binder that was 74 inches tall.

’cause I’d love a printout.

Rory: [00:17:25] Mm-hmm.

Karen: And they were like, oh, this is overwhelming. I can’t do it. I was like, why not? What’s overwhelming about it? [00:17:30] And so everything that I like is big, but if you are gonna serve people, people do not buy what they need. [00:17:35] People buy what they want.

Rory: Sure.

Karen: And if you don’t know what they want and are able to give it to ’em [00:17:40] in ways that are palpable and actionable, then you’ve just motivated them.

Right. [00:17:45] Information. Um, with no application is motivation. I don’t wanna motivate you, I want to equip you. [00:17:50] So I worked on refining that, which is, is that I do for training. [00:17:55]

Rory: So, so what’s your business, what’s your actual business model today? Because I, again, part of the [00:18:00] story, the story is just inspiring what you do and, and who you do it for.[00:18:05]

Also, I think it’s such a great example of how anybody [00:18:10] who has been faced with pain a problem, a setback, [00:18:15] you know, a heartache. Like I don’t think you would’ve designed your life initially to [00:18:20] say, oh, my son’s gonna have autism. We’re gonna struggle through this. But then there’s this beautiful [00:18:25] movement that comes out of it.

Yeah. Um. You’ve turned that into a movement and [00:18:30] into a business, uh, impact and income. So then, so then what, what was the business model? [00:18:35] Was it just classes? Like basically you’re going on social and you’re saying, buy a ticket. Come, come to this class and [00:18:40] I’ll teach you the system.

Karen: Yeah. I’ll, I’ll make you a MiniMe.

Yes. And that was, it was not, it [00:18:45] was, you know, it’s hard to lumber through families with a child with a disability that want, might wanna be [00:18:50] an advocate. It’s hard for them to get a babysitter. It just had a lot of, you know, barriers. And [00:18:55] so, um, you know, I started Special Education Academy about five years ago and [00:19:00] I just said, well, I’ll go live every Monday night.

I’ll just go live. I always like say these things and I’m like, oh, who’s gonna do [00:19:05] that? That’d be you, Karen. And so I’ve gone live every Monday night for five [00:19:10] years and it’s an hour training. Special education academy that has a good ring to it. [00:19:15] Right. And I thought all of these parents would log on and join the academy.

That did not happen.

Rory: [00:19:20] Huh?

Karen: 75% of the people that I train are school employees.

Rory: [00:19:25] Wow.

Karen: For this big mouth college dropout.

Rory: So [00:19:30] there’s several things there.

Karen: Yeah.

Rory: You are saying, first of all, you’ve been going [00:19:35] live.

Karen: Mm-hmm.

Rory: For an hour.

Karen: One hour

Rory: for free,

Karen: for free. [00:19:40] Every, it’s not, it’s not free. So the Academy is a membership?

Rory: Ah,

Karen: yeah. The Academy is a membership. It’s [00:19:45] $97 a month, but it’s live an hour, about an hour and a half every Monday.

Rory: So it’s [00:19:50] 97 bucks. Mm-hmm. But they, you put four hours of live training every month. Yeah. And you’re [00:19:55] addressing topics and

Karen: S series. We archive them. Now there’s over 400 hours of [00:20:00] pass trainings.

We open it up for questions. Whatever question you’re having, because every seven days you [00:20:05] need some support in special education. ’cause this is not like, oh, we’re gonna go look for a car, we’re gonna look for a [00:20:10] house. It’s an emergency room. Mm-hmm. Special education’s the emergency room. We have to get it right right [00:20:15] now.

Rory: Um, and so that there, there it is. So that’s the business [00:20:20] model is a hundred bucks a month. Usually

Karen: go live for an hour, four times a month. [00:20:25] It’s so simple. People are like, no, no, but really what do you do? I go live, and you know what Rory, I don’t wanna say this to [00:20:30] everybody, but it’s on an Android. I use an Android ’cause I’m not gonna celebrate the fall of the Garden [00:20:35] of Eden, but that’s another training on a $50 Joby.

I go live on my phone. I [00:20:40] don’t edit it, I don’t cut it. I don’t know how to do all that. I don’t know how to put something in the chat, but I do know [00:20:45] how to bring a message to people that are desperate for these truths.

Rory: Come on. [00:20:50] So they, so then how do you. What system do you [00:20:55] use for to collect their money?

And like where, where are they going live? Because you’re not, so I was thinking you were [00:21:00] going live on social. You’re not doing that.

Karen: It’s a Zoom platform, right? It’s a Zoom. So you join, so you go to [00:21:05] Special Education Academy, you go to training, you join us,

Rory: and then you start email ’em. Here’s the link for this week.[00:21:10]

Karen: Yeah, it’s very fancy

Rory: Uhhuh.

Karen: Yes.

Rory: Um, that’s amazing.

Karen: [00:21:15] It’s very,

Rory: and you just start doing, and then people come and go, like

Karen: do

Rory: their month

Karen: in, goes out. Yes. And sometimes, you know, if it’s a July 4th or [00:21:20] something, I might take off too. It’s like I miss them, they miss me. We are this amazing family [00:21:25] that resources each other.

We can trust each other. Um, ’cause there’s a lot of [00:21:30] mistrust between families and school districts and it’s about bad [00:21:35] information. It’s not about being malice, right. It’s bad information. We don’t know. There’s a [00:21:40] reason that surgeons don’t operate on their own child. Right? And here we [00:21:45] all are, are trying to make up something and fill out software.

It’s not about software, it’s about [00:21:50] a student. Right. And so the reason I wrote the book is it’s the seven pillars [00:21:55] that I use, whether it’s my child or any other child or any of the thousands of advocates that I’ve [00:22:00] trained nationally, that after you have this, you could literally take a piece of paper and write the IEP, [00:22:05] right?

And we were so busy checking boxes in software, we forgot that this [00:22:10] plan is as important as a prescription. When you have a prescription, it doesn’t say, just [00:22:15] grab a handful when you feel like it. It’s very specific for your need. [00:22:20] Epic IP is super specific for that child’s need,

Rory: and [00:22:25] so it’s a, it’s a consistent system.

Karen: Yeah.

Rory: That creates a customized plan for [00:22:30] each family. Each student,

Karen: yeah.

Rory: As they go through this, how do [00:22:35] you get the clients. How do you, what’s your, what, what’s the, what’s [00:22:40] the sales process like?

Karen: It’s no sales. Say it with me. There’s no sales [00:22:45] process. There’s no team, there’s no outbound, there’s no inbound.

It’s just, [00:22:50] it’s speed and volume. I, I heard this guy a few years ago, you might have heard of him, Gary Vaynerchuk. [00:22:55] He was talking to this other guy, Mr. Wonderful, and he said in 2021, if you are not on [00:23:00] TikTok, you are an idiot. And I’m a lot of things. Idiots, not one of them. And so [00:23:05] I just started going live and now we put out 52 pieces of content every [00:23:10] 24 hours across seven platforms.

Because you know what? [00:23:15] People need the information. I could spend time, I guess, making it fancy and pretty [00:23:20] and fade in and out in a carousel and drop this. People just need the information and people care [00:23:25] about two things, good audio and phenomenal content. Hmm, and so many [00:23:30] people that I would love to help grow their businesses are so busy.

Getting ready to get ready [00:23:35] and perfect is never done, and done is never perfect. And whatever your message is. [00:23:40] People need it now. Not when you’ve got it all shiny and pretty. [00:23:45]

Rory: So you are going live on social to attract, yeah. To build, to [00:23:50] build the customer base.

Karen: Absolutely. Yeah.

Rory: Okay. So you went, so what’s that?

What’s that schedule look like?

Karen: [00:23:55] Every Monday for an hour at 5 45 Central standard time I go live [00:24:00] on TikTok. On my Android because I don’t know how to make it work on a laptop. [00:24:05] And then one of my, uh, partners is on a Zoom link on another laptop. She [00:24:10] reads the questions on the live for TikTok ’cause they come fast and I answer them question, [00:24:15] answer, question, answer, question, answer.

’cause that’s about all people can tolerate. Question, [00:24:20] answer, and we get about 22 to 29,000 people every Monday [00:24:25] night popping in and out.

Rory: 20,000 people every Monday [00:24:30] just popping in with a question.

Karen: Well, they pop in and out of your live, but when we close it out, we have over a [00:24:35] hundred questions still not answered because that’s what people want.

They need their an question answered [00:24:40] right now. And so then I have a VA and she cuts it up, question, answer, question, [00:24:45] answer, and we post that. And so probably in an hour I can [00:24:50] answer 80 questions.

Rory: You’re doing a one hour live on Monday [00:24:55] night for free. That’s just an open q and a for the whole world. That is free.

Karen: Free.

Rory: And [00:25:00] then that. Points to buying the, a monthly subscription with a, a more [00:25:05] closed

Karen: program. Yeah. Well, it’s, we don’t have to buy it. You can just join the academy for free. Of course. It’s free, it’s free for [00:25:10] everybody. Even my first husband. So, um, you just go to Special Education Academy and you join us for a [00:25:15] month.

It’s free. If you wanna stay, we’re glad to have you.

Rory: Oh, okay. So the first month you give the first month free.

Karen: [00:25:20] Yeah. Yeah.

Rory: And then after that they, they start paying.

Karen: Yeah. And so we go live at about 6:00 PM [00:25:25] and then I say, I’ll see you guys in the academy at eight. It’s a very complex [00:25:30] model. I don’t know if you understood that.

We go live at six and then I say, I’ll see you at eight in the [00:25:35] academy. You probably wanna write that down. Save this. So yeah, and then now it’s [00:25:40] progressed and we have a VIP at 7:00 PM for people that are full-time advocates that have taken our [00:25:45] other products, bought our digital courses. We have a two day course, we have a six week mastermind [00:25:50] for people that want to use our processes, protocols, and pathways to be amazing.

[00:25:55] And you know, the need just keeps growing.

Rory: So you’re, you’re serving a, a, a [00:26:00] segment of that, of those customers in a deeper way.

Karen: Yes.

Rory: But, but the main thing is just free [00:26:05] live and then see it eight a simple monthly, like, hop on here and come on, rock and roll. Surely it didn’t [00:26:10] start with 20,000 people. So that’s built, built up.

That’s built it, built up, built up over, [00:26:15] over time. I think that’s so fascinating. I mean, that’s just such a simple [00:26:20] model.

Karen: It’s the same model. We didn’t, we didn’t change it because if it works, you should probably keep [00:26:25] doing it.

Rory: Uhhuh.

Karen: Yeah,

Rory: but it just, the, the, the idea that you can just go live [00:26:30] and, I mean,

Karen: yeah,

Rory: there’s no team.

There’s no, it’s like you have a phone

Karen: with the, the app. [00:26:35] I’m a one-armed wallpaper hanger. Houston, Texas. I make sure that I have plenty of hairspray and of course, the correct [00:26:40] lipstick and just answer their questions. People are desperate in this space. Whatever space [00:26:45] you’re serving, they need your knowledge.

They don’t need fancy and shiny. They [00:26:50] need your help. Now,

Rory: can I, okay, so here’s a emotional [00:26:55] fear question.

Karen: Mm-hmm.

Rory: I know there’s a lot of people listening who do [00:27:00] something where they feel guilty charging for it.

Karen: Mm-hmm. [00:27:05]

Rory: Because they go. I just want to help people. I just wanna serve people, [00:27:10] but. I need to make money, but like also I feel weird charging.

[00:27:15] It’s like I work in a church and I can’t tell, or I help people with their marriage or, um, have you ever [00:27:20] had any of that? Like, and how do you get, how do you get past that where you’re like, Hey, I’m, I’m helping, I mean, [00:27:25] I’m helping kids with disabilities. Like, but you, you, I mean, you’re also not charging [00:27:30] a ton of money, but has any of that ha like how.

Navigating that. It’s

Karen: funny that you said that. ’cause my husband used to always say, [00:27:35] is this a PM or an fm? Is this a paid ministry or a free ministry? Right. [00:27:40] And so I have, um, if you just go to my Instagram account, I have 10,000 pieces [00:27:45] of content. So I’ve been giving away and I will continue to give away.

I love doing [00:27:50] that. But people that pay, pay attention. Um, and so this [00:27:55] drives. It helps people wherever they are. Um, you know, I’ve spoken at [00:28:00] churches before and people are like, are you charging us for prayer? No. The prayer’s free with purchase, right? [00:28:05] I’m charging you for my expertise and time. That would be very normal when you go get your car [00:28:10] worked on or talk to your realtor.

You’re paying for their expertise and time. [00:28:15] So, um, it’s grown into a business. I have full-time partners now. I educate [00:28:20] advocates, I do professional developments. We go into juvenile justice centers, hospitals. [00:28:25] The need is endless, and I’m doing my very best to serve them at the highest [00:28:30] level.

Rory: How do you draw the line between what you give away for free and what [00:28:35] you charge for in the academy?

Karen: Um, I, there’s no line. Hopefully one day we’re putting out 200 pieces of [00:28:40] content a day. It is my good pleasure to serve somebody. That [00:28:45] was where I was. You know, I, I get to go a lot of places and travel and when somebody comes up to [00:28:50] you and goes, are you sp? And I’m like, yes, I am. She goes, would it be really weird if I took a picture [00:28:55] with you?

I’m like, well, you’re crying in public, so get over here. Right? So when we go somewhere and [00:29:00] somebody is. I am a mom from Michigan, and I did what you said in the videos, and it was a [00:29:05] bumpy meeting, but I held my position and now my daughter’s reading. Like, that’s everything. [00:29:10] I mean, you can’t outgive, God, I can’t outgive, you know, the, I would, I would never [00:29:15] forget what he’s done for me and my family.

Um, and it’s a blessing to walk in this space. It’s [00:29:20] very polarizing. People either adore or adore you or they’re recalled by you. [00:29:25] I’ll take ’em both. If you’re gonna be online, you are going to be loved and not loved. [00:29:30] Get over it. You’re not that big of a deal.

Rory: Yeah. How do you, I mean, you know, you talk about, [00:29:35] you talk about God, you talk about Jesus, you say, I, I, you know, I, I we’re gonna do this.

We’re not gonna [00:29:40] do that. You’re very direct. Do you not, you just [00:29:45] don’t worry about haters. They don’t bother you. Like, what’s the, I mean, how do you [00:29:50] deal with that?

Karen: So, I’m semi grown and I’m, I’m 60.1 years old, heavy on the [00:29:55] 0.1. People are going to like you or not like you. That has nothing to do with me. [00:30:00] My job is to get up every day and try to walk through with the spirit of excellence, and I’m gonna try to do a little bit better [00:30:05] tomorrow.

People are hurting. That’s why they type. But if that’s going to stop [00:30:10] you from giving out your message, then you’ve already lost. The [00:30:15] accolades and the put downs. Neither one of them are probably really accurate, but I know that if I get up [00:30:20] every day doing what God’s called me to do, that I can put my head down on my pillow and know it’s been a good [00:30:25] day.

Rory: This is so cool. And there’s, I know there’s people listening right now that go I, I. You [00:30:30] know, I have what they might think is a very random or, you know, narrow specific [00:30:35] thing.

Karen: Yeah.

Rory: And it’s like there’s so many people in the world, like you can access them at the push of a button. [00:30:40] Like push the button, go life.

There’s

Karen: a button at the bottom, it says, plus that means you’re adding to somebody’s life. [00:30:45] Yeah,

Rory: I love that.

Karen: But you’re so busy thinking you’re attractive. You know what’s [00:30:50] attractive about you, the anointing on your life and the way you share your [00:30:55] message. That’s what’s attractive.

Rory: So. Why did you join [00:31:00] Brand Builders Group?

Like, how did you, like, how did you find us? Where were you? Because like you, [00:31:05] you’re, you are crushing it and, uh, I mean, you got way more followers than I do. Like you, [00:31:10] you’re, you’re, you’re, you’re, you’re living this purpose. Yeah. You’re helping people. You’re making [00:31:15] money. What was like, how did you even.

Karen: Hear about us.

Yeah. Shout out to Omar l [00:31:20] Tari.

Rory: Oh yeah.

Karen: Uh, he’s amazing. And he is amazing. I had downloaded on my Android, um, [00:31:25] a video. Then you can watch it on the, on the plane. And I watched your video and I thought. [00:31:30] This is who I’m supposed to work with. I don’t know this guy, but this is who I’m supposed to work with.

And, uh, I [00:31:35] got on a call and I joined and it’s just been like a perfect puzzle piece. [00:31:40] And it was exactly the, um, masterclass and information. But the other thing is [00:31:45] you hold us to a high accountability. This is not some cheerleading group. We’re not some fun [00:31:50] club. And it’s about you want us to get to work and, um.

I love the [00:31:55] accountability that comes with having my monthly strategist, um, because we don’t know if we [00:32:00] get tomorrow. You need to put your head down and get to work. And this was the first [00:32:05] group that I’d ever been a part of and I’ve been a part of amazing groups and masterminds and phenomenal [00:32:10] thought leaders and influencers and negotiators and business people.

But this was the first [00:32:15] time that I was like, you need to be big, be grown up and finish what you [00:32:20] said you were gonna do.

Rory: You know, I, as you’re talking, it is occurring to [00:32:25] me that I think a lot of programs are structured towards, [00:32:30] like, how do you make money fast or how do you grow fast?

Karen: Yeah.

Rory: And I think you and I [00:32:35] share a similar orientation that it’s not about that it’s going.[00:32:40]

The clock is ticking on the people who need help and they need help right now. Like I’m [00:32:45] driven by that same urgency. Mm-hmm. Like the urgency is not like, how do we make money today? It [00:32:50] like, it’s going like, there’s somebody out there and I don’t know how long I’m gonna be [00:32:55] here, and they need help right now.

Karen: Right.

Rory: And every moment that passes that I am not [00:33:00] getting in front of them and helping them. It’s like I, I feel like I’m, I feel like I’m [00:33:05] underutilizing my life. Like I’m, I’m literally. Abandoning y you [00:33:10] know, my anointing. Yeah. I’m, I’m not, and and I we do share that.

Karen: [00:33:15] Yeah.

Rory: And

Karen: I remember

Rory: have that.

Karen: Yeah. And we started the book process, um, and, you know, [00:33:20] amazing team at Mission-Driven Press.

And, um, we had, um, some. Pieces that [00:33:25] I needed to finish. And, um, somebody said we could push it back another 60 days and I said, we [00:33:30] cannot push it back another 60 days. Whoever is supposed to receive this amazing love [00:33:35] story that I wrote them, this amazing testament, they need to have it right now.

Rory: Look at this thing, the epic [00:33:40] IEP, a powerful playbook for parents, educators, [00:33:45] and advocates navigating the special education process.

This is [00:33:50] so clear. So specific. Um, you [00:33:55] know, you know, one of our big philosophies is the moment you become clear on who you’re serving, like [00:34:00] every other downstream decision becomes clear. And, and I’m just, I’m amazed because it’s just like, [00:34:05] this is just, I mean, I know there’s 8 million, you said 8 million kids in the us

Karen: just in the US

Rory: alone.

Now you [00:34:10] have a big international audience, but like thousands of people are pre-ordering this book. Yes. [00:34:15] And it’s, it’s like. There’s not a lot of books on the, I mean, there’s not, not a lot of [00:34:20] books on the subject. There’s,

Karen: there’s actually none. So there’s two kinds of books in this space, which I [00:34:25] love.

There’s law books and evaluation books and protocols and rah, rah, rah, that are hundreds [00:34:30] of pages long. And then there are books about the parent versus the school. There are not [00:34:35] two sides of this table. There is one side, there’s a child with exceptionalities [00:34:40] that need some services at school to be an amazing, ridiculously amazing adult.[00:34:45]

We can do that when we do, when we write an epic IEP.

Rory: Yeah. That’s the other thing. I mean that, that, [00:34:50] that phrase that you say, you got it on the cover here. This is so cool. So hiding behind the, hiding behind the cover. [00:34:55] When we get it right for the child, we get it right for everyone. That is the other thing [00:35:00] about just the service orientation of this.

Yes. To go like. [00:35:05] Stop being afraid of what people are gonna say about you. Stop [00:35:10] being concerned about getting the, the editing. Perfect. Stop. Yes. None of that [00:35:15] has to do with helping the child. None of that has to do with you helping your customer. And [00:35:20] it’s like when you stay focused on serving that audience, it’s like.

[00:35:25] The rest just comes out and there’s an audience for everything. There’s bodies for

Karen: everything. There’s audience for everything. I remember when I first [00:35:30] started with brand builders and my strategist, who’s ridiculously amazing, Casey Doddle, and he said, [00:35:35] I love you, but. Your website? How do people find you?

I’m like, I don’t know. [00:35:40] I don’t know. I didn’t have a great website. I didn’t have a great message. I didn’t have a landing page. I didn’t have a [00:35:45] funnel. I don’t know what those things are. Um, I had a back comb and some hairspray, but when you have a [00:35:50] passionate mission. That you are being authentic. People will find you, they will [00:35:55] search you out.

And how selfish to take your, your message to the grave. [00:36:00]

Rory: All right, I have two last questions. Well, three. Okay, so, so one, I wanna talk about [00:36:05] your expertise for just a second. If there happens to be somebody listening who. [00:36:10] Is involved in a school or a family or a situation where there is [00:36:15] a child with disabilities and they’re living through that right now.

What is the kind of the one biggest [00:36:20] encouragement that you would have that you go, you just need to know this, like as you’re [00:36:25] stepping in. You know, you’ve now lived this personally. You’ve [00:36:30] walked through it with other parents, you helped other schools advocates, like,

Karen: yeah.

Rory: What does that [00:36:35] person need to know if they’re sort of in that moment that you were, when you first kind of got the news?

Karen: [00:36:40] Yeah, you are. You’re doing fine. You’re doing a great job. God placed this child in front of you, [00:36:45] in your class, God placed this child, um, that you’re the principal of this child and God. [00:36:50] Place this child in your home to raise and stop beating yourself up. Kids [00:36:55] don’t come with instruction books. If they did, I left all three of mine at the hospital.

You know, [00:37:00] parents of a child with a disability have an 88% chance of getting divorced.

Rory: Oh man.

Karen: And so [00:37:05] the great thing about this thing called Online Connection and you know, um, [00:37:10] reach, is that now we have a community for families with disabilities that had no community. If you and I [00:37:15] have a child and something goes wrong with a tennis coach, we are down there at the field house.

People with a [00:37:20] child with a disability, they can’t leave, they can’t go somewhere. And now we have this community [00:37:25] to resource and equip each other and let them know. Mama, you’re doing a great job, grandma. You’re doing [00:37:30] a phenomenal job. New teacher. Thank you so much for serving kids at the highest level.

Rory: [00:37:35] Where do you want people to go to get a copy of the Epic IEP?

Karen: I want you to go [00:37:40] wherever you get books and get one for you and get one for a friend and get a box of Kleenex. [00:37:45] There’s some emotional stories in there. At the end of every chapter, there’s a checklist for parents and advocates and [00:37:50] educators, because we are all at the table, but we have a different expertise and purview.[00:37:55]

But I say unequivocally, this book is going to change your life.

Rory: All right, so then [00:38:00] my last little question for you is. What would you say to the mission-driven messenger out there? [00:38:05] Who feels the calling but is struggling with the like, [00:38:10] I don’t like social media. I don’t wanna sell to people. I don’t, [00:38:15] I’m not.

Sure. Like I, I don’t know how to write a book. I don’t know. I don’t know what the, all [00:38:20] I know is I have a calling, but I don’t know how to do anything else, and I don’t know how to do anything of what all the rest [00:38:25] of this is. I just have a calling, but I’m struggling to like, get it [00:38:30] out there, whatever that means.

Karen: Make a commitment that you are the six o’clock news. [00:38:35] Just do the news. If you don’t wanna go live, record it on Zoom, record it on something, [00:38:40] but put it out there. You can, you can build the plane while you’re flying it. And [00:38:45] I, I, I, I, I doesn’t sound like it’s about somebody else. It’s about you. This isn’t about [00:38:50] you.

The gift that is inside of you, the messages inside of you was never for you. [00:38:55] It is for somebody else. And, and you just need to make the [00:39:00] commitment and not waiver from that. And I would say respectfully, stop treating this as a [00:39:05] business. That’s the biggest malarkey on the, on the, on the internet. Treat this as your job.[00:39:10]

’cause if you don’t show up at your job, you are fired. If you treat this as a [00:39:15] job and make the commitment and don’t waver waffle or water it down, the reach [00:39:20] that you’ll have and the way that you bless people will be, uh, limitless. [00:39:25]

Rory: Karen, I’m, for whatever it’s worth. I’m so proud of you.

Karen: Thank you.

Rory: Uh, [00:39:30] you, you know, I think you haven’t been in Brandville as that long, right?

Like [00:39:35] six months, 16 months. Yeah. But, but you have this knack for, I’m gonna find a [00:39:40] way over, under, around, through. And like, even in your personal life, I think this journey has really shaped and [00:39:45] cultivated that in you. If you’re just like, I’m just not gonna be stopped. Yeah. Like, I’ll find, I’m gonna [00:39:50] find a way and I love that.

And, and I, I love. [00:39:55] Your orientation towards service Yes.

Karen: Is

Rory: so pure.

Karen: Yeah.

Rory: And I, [00:40:00] I love the sense of urgency that you have. Yes.

Karen: Yes.

Rory: Of the people who need [00:40:05] to, who need your help.

Karen: They need it. Yesterday and, and even when I’m training people [00:40:10] and I have lots of diverse people that I train, I love, love, love them all.

I’m obsessed with [00:40:15] people. I’m sort of the. Cocker spaniel Octopus. If I like you, you’re like, oh, that’s a lot of Karen. And the [00:40:20] first thing that I say in my trainings, and some of them are quite the investment. If you are not here [00:40:25] to serve the IEP committee, please know that that’s fine, but please get a full [00:40:30] refund because I train people that are there to serve the IEP committee.

Rory: [00:40:35] Well my friend, we are encouraged by you. I personally am inspired by you. Go get a copy of the [00:40:40] epic IEP, everybody. And, uh, Karen, thanks for the inspiration and the [00:40:45] insights and uh, keep going friend.

Karen: Thank you [00:40:50] [00:40:55] [00:41:00] dear.

WWK Ep 008: He Was Dead for 6 Minutes. What Hal Elrod Did Next Changed Everything

Hal: [00:00:00] That night, my car was hit, hit on by a drunk driver at 70 miles per hour. I was found dead at the scene. [00:00:05] I broke 11 bones, uh, suffered permanent brain damage, which I still struggle [00:00:10] with today. Um, and, uh, was told I would never walk again and spent six days in a coma. [00:00:15] Uh, miraculously I maintained, unwavering.

Rory: You were actually, you were actually dead for six

Hal: minutes. My heart stopped for six [00:00:20] minutes on the side of the freeway when they, they, the car was keeping me alive, all the pressure from the car and when [00:00:25] they, they’d use the jaws of life, it took them an almost an hour to cut the car apart and pull me out.

And [00:00:30] when they did, I had been losing blood for an hour and just, you know, bled out essentially.[00:00:35] [00:00:40] [00:00:45]

Rory: Hey, I am so excited to [00:00:50] introduce you to one of the most inspiring people that I know personally. This [00:00:55] man has made a huge impact on my life. My mom is a huge fan. Um, [00:01:00] all my friends are huge fans, and he is someone who is not only a colleague, but someone [00:01:05] who is become a dear, trusted friend. We share the stage at events together.

We’re in [00:01:10] masterminds together. I respect him so much with the, the highest level of esteem. [00:01:15] Uh, this gentleman has sold four and a half million copies of his [00:01:20] book. His books have been translated into over 40 languages. He has over [00:01:25] 380,000 people in his Facebook group for his book. [00:01:30] Uh, has an app that has thousands and thousands of five star reviews.[00:01:35]

He has died, uh, died for real once and nearly died another time. We’re [00:01:40] gonna talk about that. This is no other than Mr. Hal Elrod, author of The [00:01:45] Miracle Morning, creator of the Miracle Morning Series. Uh, there’s a documentary on his life, a [00:01:50] movie that you can check out. And anyways, Hal, thanks for being here, buddy.

Hal: Rory. [00:01:55] You’re welcome. Thank you. And what an introduction. You should be a professional Hall of Fame speaker or something.

Rory: There [00:02:00] you go. That’s pretty good. Maybe there’s hope for me.

Hal: Yeah.

Rory: Um, so I want [00:02:05] to know, you’ve had, you’ve had a lot of, so that bio talks about, you’ve done a lot of [00:02:10] awesome things. You’ve, a lot of crap happen to you.

Hal: Yeah.

Rory: You’ve had a lot of [00:02:15] seriously hard stuff. What do you think are the [00:02:20] most, what do you think are the most difficult things you’ve gone through that have actually shaped like [00:02:25] who you are today? Like, uh, ’cause I know you’ve, you’ve, you’ve been through a lot of them. Yeah. [00:02:30]

Hal: Yeah. Um, I’ll tell them quickly ’cause I tend to go into a lot of detail in my stories and, [00:02:35] uh, just, just so we can go into anyone that you want.

But, um, the first one I, I didn’t talk about [00:02:40] until the last year. I didn’t really even realize this was a part of my life and, and who I am as [00:02:45] much as it is, which is the death of my sister. Um, when I was eight years old, my baby [00:02:50] sister, uh, I woke up on a Saturday morning and my mother was screaming across the hall, my baby, [00:02:55] my baby God, don’t take my baby.

At eight years old, I ran across the hall and my mom was [00:03:00] pushing on the chest and breathing into the mouth of my, my little 18 month old sister. [00:03:05] And, uh, Anne Marie was her name, and she passed away that morning. And at eight years old, you know, it’s [00:03:10] like I, I like, I don’t fully comprehend death, and this is very weird.

I don’t [00:03:15] understand the emotions that I’m feeling and the ones that my mom’s feeling. Within six months, my [00:03:20] mother led a support group. She started a support group for other parents who had lost children. And so I didn’t realize it until I was [00:03:25] going through therapy in like 2020, uh, dealing with some difficulties after chemo, some PTSD, [00:03:30] but as a therapist asking me about my childhood, I realized, oh, I think that’s weird.

The seed was planted that [00:03:35] like, when you go through adversity, you take your, your adversity, your pain, and you find [00:03:40] purpose in it. And when you do, it uplifts you, it uplifts others. It, it becomes actually a, [00:03:45] a, an asset of benefit to, to humanity. So that seed was planted there. And then fast forward 12 [00:03:50] years later, um, I was driving home after giving a speech at a Cutco conference.

Uh, I survived, or that night [00:03:55] my car was hit head on by a drunk driver. At 70 miles per hour, I was found dead at the scene. I broke [00:04:00] 11 bones, uh, suffered permanent brain damage, which I still struggle with [00:04:05] today. Um, and, uh, was sold. I would never walk again and spent six days in a coma. Uh, [00:04:10] miraculously I maintained, unwavering.

You were actually, you were actually dead for six minutes. My heart stopped for six minutes on the side [00:04:15] of the freeway when they, they, the car was keeping me alive, all the pressure from the car and when they, they’d use the [00:04:20] jaws of life it to come in almost an hour to cut the car apart and pull me out.

And when they did, I [00:04:25] had been losing blood for an hour and just, you know, bled out essentially, um, six days in [00:04:30] a coma, flatline twice more. And when I was, came outta the coma, I faced this unimaginable [00:04:35] reality that I broke all these bones. I’m never gonna walk again. And I just, I accepted the worst [00:04:40] case scenario.

If I never walk again, I’ll be at peace with it. But. I’m going to maintain unwavering [00:04:45] faith that I can walk again until proven otherwise, right? Like, and I thought, like, if you know, I’m gonna, I [00:04:50] prayed about it every day. I visualize walking. I like, I meditated on all of my [00:04:55] cells healing. Um, and three weeks after the crafts, the doctors came in with routine [00:05:00] x-rays and they said, we know how to explain this, but your body is healing and [00:05:05] we’re gonna let you take your first step in therapy today.

And even me as an optimist was thinking like a year of [00:05:10] healing. It was three weeks later that I took my first step and my dad has a picture of it, which is, I’m so glad he [00:05:15] captured, you know, that moment. Um, and then you fast forward nine years later, uh, very common [00:05:20] 2008 financial crash. I, my business failed.

And, uh, my house that I’d just bought and, [00:05:25] and landscaped and so much pride, a year and a half prior Inc. Took it away, couldn’t pay [00:05:30] the mortgage, and that’s when I created this thing called, became called the Miracle Morning. [00:05:35] And, uh, which turned my life around so profoundly that it felt like a miracle. And then last but not least, you [00:05:40] fast forward, uh, what, nine years after that, give or take.

Um, as a dad [00:05:45] with a 7-year-old daughter and a 4-year-old son, I was given a 30% chance of [00:05:50] surviving. I was di diagnosed with a very rare, aggressive form of leukemia. And at the time of [00:05:55] diagnosis, my heart was failing, my kidneys were failing, my lungs were failing. Uh, and the doctor said, [00:06:00] I have one to two weeks to live if I don’t start chemotherapy.

And I didn’t wanna do chemotherapy ’cause [00:06:05] most people die from the chemotherapy. So it’s kinda like you’re, you’re darned if you do, darned if you don’t. Right. It’s like you’re [00:06:10] dead in a week or two without chemo, but if you do chemo, it’s gonna wreck your body, wreak [00:06:15] havoc on, you do irreparable damage, but there’s a 30% chance you’ll live.

Mm-hmm. [00:06:20] You’re like. These are my, these are the two options that I have. And so [00:06:25] between faith and every natural holistic practice that I could possibly implement into my [00:06:30] life, um, I’m grateful to say that I, and the Miracle Morning was actually a big part of my cancer journey. [00:06:35] Like, utilizing that to manage my mindset and my mental and emotional wellbeing and, and even [00:06:40] physical self-healing, if you will.

Um, and, uh, I’m here to, to share it all today. [00:06:45]

Rory: mean,

Hal: dude, that’s

Rory: a very intense five minute. That’s like, that is [00:06:50] a lifetime. I mean, I, here’s what I think if the rest of your life is gonna be smooth sailing, ’cause you’ve, you’ve had many, many lifetimes. [00:06:55]

Hal: Knock on wood, man.

Rory: Let’s hope.

Hal: Well,

Rory: praise the Lord for [00:07:00] what has come out of that and what, how you’ve been shaped like and, and the [00:07:05] impact that you’ve now had on millions of people.

And I, I hope people, I, I, [00:07:10] you know, I obviously know all of that stuff as we’ve known you for a long time.

Hal: Yeah.

Rory: But I [00:07:15] think there’s a couple really key things about that, that people need to see. One is that like. [00:07:20] The pain that you’re going through is in [00:07:25] many cases, God’s way of shaping you and making you, and molding you into the [00:07:30] person that you one day are gonna be to help other people.

And you exhibit that and model [00:07:35] that as good as anybody I’ve ever met. And it’s, that part is beautiful. Um, you [00:07:40] know, I, I don’t, I don’t think God, like causes horrible things to happen, but like he can redeem [00:07:45] anything. Yeah. And that has certainly been your story. So The [00:07:50] Miracle Morning is where this all starts.

Yeah. You write a book, that book has sold like three and a half [00:07:55] million copies.

Hal: Yeah.
Rory: And then you’ve had all these other series, and I want to talk about some of the business side of that later. [00:08:00] Yeah. Because I, I’m super fascinated with how you’ve done the international stuff and like the co-authoring.

And [00:08:05] I think that will be interesting. The audience, you know, to me the, the core of the, the [00:08:10] story is the character that you’ve developed, that you’ve built to help you build a personal [00:08:15] brand. Talking into the Miracle Morning. [00:08:20] Is there a part of the Miracle Morning that you wish people understood better [00:08:25] or something that you, you think they don’t really get the full [00:08:30] gravitas of?

Like the, of like the whole, whole system?

Hal: Yeah.

Rory: Or just something that’s been like [00:08:35] extra powerful for you that, you know, maybe people don’t [00:08:40] realize it in, in terms of the whole sequence and step.

Hal: Yeah, I think that the premise of it is [00:08:45] what’s important to understand. ’cause you hear Miracle Morning and you think, oh, okay, so a you know, I need [00:08:50] to be a morning person.

Or this is about a morning routine, which it is, but it’s a means [00:08:55] to an end. And the end is becoming the person that you need to be to create everything [00:09:00] that you want for your life, right? It’s having a daily personal development practice each day to [00:09:05] start the day in a peak, physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual state.

And develop your [00:09:10] mindset, the beliefs that you need, the habits, the skills, the knowledge, right, to become a [00:09:15] better version of yourself. And, and the premise of it started with a Jim Rohn quote, like that was the whole reason [00:09:20] this I created a morning routine was Jim Rohn said, your level of success, [00:09:25] and I actually like the word fulfillment better.

Um, but so let’s say your level of fulfillment in each area [00:09:30] of your life will rarely exceed your level of personal development. And in other [00:09:35] words, I quantify that. So on a scale of one to 10, everybody wants level 10 fulfillment. I wanna be as [00:09:40] happy and healthy and wealthy as I possibly can be. And I had to like look in the mirror when I heard that [00:09:45] quote.

This was 2008, economy’s crashing. I’m in debt. I’m, I’m in, you know, in a bad spot. And I [00:09:50] go, okay, I want level 10 fulfillment, but what’s my level of personal development? Because if [00:09:55] my personal development or my success won’t exceed it, I need to make sure that I’m [00:10:00] developing myself at the highest level each day.

And my answer was like, I think for. Most people would [00:10:05] be, like, I say two, like I’m, you know, I do a little bit of, I dabble in it here and there. I read books here [00:10:10] and there. Um, but I had nothing consistently. And so I just looked at what are the most, what are [00:10:15] the most timeless, proven personal development practices that the world’s most successful people have sworn [00:10:20] by for centuries.

I’m not looking for the new app or the new program, or the, I’m like, what, what the, [00:10:25] what works? And I was looking for one practice and I ended up with a list of six. [00:10:30] It was, and these are the SA now through, you know, iterating and brand building. It became an [00:10:35] acronym. Savers, S-A-V-E-R-S. Those are the six practices for [00:10:40] assesses for silence.

It’s your prayer, your meditation, starting your day in a calm, peaceful way. [00:10:45] The A is for affirmations, not the goofy kind that, you know, like, like I’m a money magnet, [00:10:50] but like affirmations that are rooted in truth that are reinforcing your commitment. Um, in [00:10:55] fact, one thing that I’ve, it’s only in the last year that I thought of this like came up for me, is what you affirm [00:11:00] repeatedly becomes your reality.

Right. So if you affirm I am blank, fill [00:11:05] in the blank, I am worthless. I’m amazing, I’m capable, I’m whatever. Right? Um, so for me, I’m affirming what I’m [00:11:10] committed to, why it’s a must for me, what actions I’m gonna take there. Like

Rory: Yeah. Like, I mean, neuroscience has proved that, [00:11:15] again, again, the brain does not delineate Yeah.

Between positive and negative. It just bleeds whatever you tell it most [00:11:20] often.

Hal: Yeah. Yeah.

Rory: And, uh, yeah, so that’s key. So the affirmations is critical. Part of the [00:11:25] morning routine.

Hal: It’s, to me, it’s the most important part of the mirror. The savers is the affirmations or the anchor. ’cause I’m [00:11:30] affirming what I’m committed to.

So it’s like, okay, what actually, why are you even doing this? What do you want, what are you committed to as a dad, as a [00:11:35] husband, as a CEO, as a right in your finances and your health and your fitness. Like, [00:11:40] that’s where I start by affirming all of that and then getting clear on. Affirming, why is it a must for you?

Which [00:11:45] actions are you gonna take to ensure that you are moving toward that outcome that you say you’re committed to? And if every day you’re affirming [00:11:50] that a, it’s top of mind, there is no, oh man, I forgot. I really wanted to do that. And then I got away from it and [00:11:55] got distracted. It’s like, no, it’s in writing.

And I read it every day and then, and, and it’s like, I wanna make a million [00:12:00] dollars. Yeah, that’d be fun. It’s like, no, no, no. Why? Oh yeah, I wanna put my, I wanna retire my dad, and I wanna put [00:12:05] my mom like, right. Like, you, you have the reasons. It’s just the, it’s simple components of like, [00:12:10] if you’re gonna achieve something, you gotta know what it is and be committed to that, why it’s important.

And then know what are [00:12:15] the actions you’re gonna take. And so for me, I have affirmations for each goal and each role [00:12:20] in my life. The V is for visualization. And I would just say like the world’s greatest athlete to visualize [00:12:25] the E is for exercise. You don’t have to go to the gym in the morning, but move your body for even a minute, right?

Get the blood flowing, [00:12:30] move your body. Exercise some jumping jacks. Stretching. I do a five minute workout every morning [00:12:35] where I do one minute of plank, one minute of back, bend. One minute of downward dog. [00:12:40] One minute of jumping jacks. I forgot the minute. But anyway, so, um, and then the R [00:12:45] is for reading and the S is for scribing, which is a fancy word for journaling, but the J would’ve made the [00:12:50] acronym Same.

Awkward. Yeah, same word J

Rory: This is better.

Hal: So we got, and that’s my wife’s idea by the way. She’s like, get up the [00:12:55] source. She’s my, she is my muse. I have realized, I’m sure AJ is your muse in many ways, right?

Rory: Yes. [00:13:00]

Hal: Um, so those are the practices and uh, and, and the point being you don’t [00:13:05] have to be a morning person, you just have to, uh, one of my co-authors said it.

Well, [00:13:10] he said it’s not about starting, it’s not about waking up early, it’s about waking up better.

Rory: Mm-hmm.

Hal: Right. Like you could do Miracle Morning at [00:13:15] noon.

Rory: Right. Well,

Hal: and I think it’s, you know, for our audience in particular,

Rory: there’s this, this [00:13:20] joke around the National Speakers Association that says most speakers have [00:13:25] written more books than they’ve read.

Hal: I love that.

Rory: And I think. You [00:13:30] know, agent and I were just talking about this recently that we’re like, golly, like [00:13:35] we are products of the personal development industry. Yeah. We are the biggest personal [00:13:40] development junkies There are. Yeah. Even now, uh, you know, Chris was actually talking to me about this the other [00:13:45] day.

He, he’s like, you would never watch a course. I’m like, I am watching a course, course every, [00:13:50] every moment of my life I’m in somebody’s course learning something. Learning something. Yeah. Doing, doing [00:13:55] something. And it’s just like, I think a lot of personal brands, it’s [00:14:00] easy to overlook, to be like, oh, I’m the one writing the book.

I’m the one speaking on the stages.

Hal: Yeah.

Rory: [00:14:05] I don’t need to be doing, but it’s like, and then you overlook like, am I doing the fundamentals? Totally. Am I, do [00:14:10] I, am I ha do I have a vision? Do I, I have affirmations. Am I conscious about like, [00:14:15] you know, what I’m reading and all, all that kind of stuff. ’cause clearly that’s been a big part of.

Your personal [00:14:20] brand journey also.

Hal: Yeah, and I’m, I mean, and I’m guilty of that in that I’ve done the Miracle Morning [00:14:25] probably 6.2 days a week for the last 17 years. I mean, I do it seven days a week unless [00:14:30] I’ve got like late night with my wife or concert or whatever. But otherwise, I’m, it’s almost every day.

[00:14:35] Um, and including when I’m traveling. But I also will realize sometimes I’m like, wait, I [00:14:40] actually haven’t visualized in like three months. Like, you know, so it’s like my brain says I’m doing [00:14:45] it every day, but I’m like, I’m actually get, we all do that. We get away from the basics, right? Like you said, do I have [00:14:50] a vision?

Do I, it’s like, well, I used to, but then I got where I wanted to go, and then I kind of let some of the, you know, [00:14:55] you kind of drop some of the plates that you’re spinning. Um, yeah. So I, I, I do my New York morning every day, but for sure [00:15:00] it’s not perfect.

Rory: Yeah. And I mean,

Hal: if you’re gonna become a better teacher to [00:15:05] other people, it’s like you have to

Rory: become a better person.

You have to be a bigger vessel.

Hal: Yeah.

Rory: You gotta increase. [00:15:10] Increase your, your capacity. Um, what are some of the. What are some [00:15:15] of the doubts you’ve had about yourself in building your own personal brand? Mm. And [00:15:20] being, you know, a speaker, coach, teacher, you, you know, podcaster, [00:15:25] all the things, the author. What are some of the like, limiting beliefs that you started [00:15:30] with, that you have had to coach yourself through to be able [00:15:35] to build the, you know, the empire that you guys have built?

Yeah, I

Hal: think that the [00:15:40] big picture answer to that, um, there’s lots of specifics, but the big picture was [00:15:45] if, and, and I’ll, I, I go through the phases of like, you know, the, the stair stepping of growth. [00:15:50] So when I was 19, um, up until that point, I had never [00:15:55] achieved anything remarkable. Meaning, like, I, I didn’t get good, I wasn’t an [00:16:00] achiever.

I didn’t get good grades. Mm. Um, I wasn’t an athlete. I never played organized [00:16:05] sports. Um, I, uh, I wasn’t popular. I got bold, right? Like, so I was, I had [00:16:10] nothing in my brain that was like, you know, like there’s the kids that we know growing up and you’re like, oh, they’re gonna [00:16:15] be super successful, right? Like, they get, they’re, they’re everything they do, they’re the best at, like, I wasn’t [00:16:20] that, and it was my second day of my Cutco training when my mentor Jesse said, [00:16:25] right, y’all, you’re about to enter into your fast start.

It’s the first 10 days and if you sell a thousand [00:16:30] dollars, you get a trimmer. And we’re like, dude, I want a trimmer. Let’s go.

Rory: What’s a trim?

Hal: It’s, it’s like the, it’s [00:16:35] like the most popular everyday, just a small little like tomato knife. Like that’s you use every day, right? Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. [00:16:40] Um, thank you for asking that.

Um, if you sell 2000, you get a spatula spreader, which is like a spatula with [00:16:45] a knife. You’re like, oh my God, I love this bread. Yeah, I mean, and it’s funny ’cause you’ve just been through two days of Cutco training. [00:16:50] You’re like, you love this stuff. And uh, and then he goes all the way to the top and he is like, now the [00:16:55] highest level is the record.

It’s the most anyone has ever sold in the last 50 years. In the [00:17:00] first 10 days. He goes, it happened to have been broken last week by a gal in Bakersfield, California, and I was [00:17:05] in Fresno. You’re, uh, uh, uh, um. An hour and a half south. [00:17:10] And, uh, he said, if you break that, you get everything on this board. Plus we’re gonna take you to dinner in a [00:17:15] limo, plus I’ll take you skydiving.

Like, and I’m like, this is it. And so for the first time in my life, [00:17:20] and if anyone’s listening right now, we all have this limiting belief of separation between [00:17:25] people that we view as superior to us in some way. Right?

Rory: Hmm.

Hal: So you’re looking on stage [00:17:30] and you’re like, oh man, they’re more, they’re better looking than me.

They’re older than me, they’re [00:17:35] wiser than me. They have more experience, they have more money, they have more talent. They’ve written 15 books, yada [00:17:40] yada. Rory’s got a company. We create separation between us. We, we, like, [00:17:45] literally as humans look for the reasons why we’re not as good as other people. [00:17:50] And in that, and I had done that my whole life, and in that moment I went, wait a minute.[00:17:55]

And I don’t know if I would’ve had, it’d been a girl that lived like in proximity to where I could visualize, wait, Bakersfield, that’s [00:18:00] like Fresno, that’s not like Beverly Hills. Like, that’s like a

Rory: Right,

Hal: right. They call, you know, no offense to Fresno, it was like the arm pit of [00:18:05] California and Bakersfield is like the other armpit, right?

So that’s not my words, but I actually love [00:18:10] living in Fresno. But anyway, so uh, I go, why not? Why not me? If that [00:18:15] girl in Bakersfield could sell $12,338 in 10 days, [00:18:20] why not me? And uh, and so that, that was the [00:18:25] first limiting belief that I overcame. And I think it’s one of the most important. And what it [00:18:30] is, is which

Rory: is that which is that someone else has something that you don’t have and [00:18:35] that’s why they’re more successful

Hal: than you are.

It’s, it’s trading separation for evidence, meaning [00:18:40] not, oh, their separation. ’cause they have more blank than me, more ability than I do [00:18:45] looking for commonality, looking for, oh, they did it. That’s evident [00:18:50] that I could do that in greater. I think Jesus said that, right? You do. You know, you shall do what [00:18:55] I did in greater.

Like that belief that other people is just showing you what’s [00:19:00] possible, not showing you that what you can’t do, ’cause they’re better than you. And I think that’s the most important fundamental [00:19:05] commonality. They’re a human being and I’m a human being. Everything else [00:19:10] is just details. Right? Everything else is possible beyond that.

Mm-hmm. [00:19:15] And then, so in that moment, I mean, how did you get past that? It was like a [00:19:20] spatula and then it just clicked. So, so, so then, so I went to Jesse after training and I said, uh, [00:19:25] I was like, I thought he was gonna be so excited and be like, wow, how you’re gonna do it? I said, Hey Jesse, [00:19:30] I’m excited to tell you something.

I said, I wanna break the record. I wanna, I wanna sell, I wanna beat that gal. [00:19:35] Christina’s 12,000 303 38 bucks. And I thought he’d be, I thought he was gonna jump up and down and, you [00:19:40] know, I like envisioned him spinning me around and, you know, and he goes, he just nodded his head, kind of [00:19:45] cocked his head and he goes, okay.

He goes, Al let me ask, I wanna ask you a question. [00:19:50] How often do you think I hear that in training? I run training every week. How often think I hear that somebody wants to break the fast [00:19:55] start record and I just like put on heels. I go, I don’t know. He said, every [00:20:00] week, guess how many people have done it since I’ve been a manager?

I said, I don’t know. He said, [00:20:05] none. He said it, it’s easy to get excited, but if you want to break the record, [00:20:10] I you can, I can help you, but you have to be committed at a level you’ve [00:20:15] never been committed to anything in your life. And again, he’s telling this to a, a c [00:20:20] student, not an athlete. Lazy, undisciplined.

And I, I’m like, [00:20:25] uh, and at that point I just, I, I admired this guy and so it’s interesting how [00:20:30] things work, but if like I was in isolation and no one knew, I’d be like, Nope, nevermind. I’m not, [00:20:35] I’m not ready for that. But because I didn’t wanna let him down, I go, I’ll do it. I’ll commit. I’ll [00:20:40] do whatever you tell me to do.

And thanks to his accountability, right, it reminds me of like, if. [00:20:45] Wanna build a brand, right? Get a coach, get Rory ba. You know what I mean? I mean, and I’m not, I’m not just saying that, but [00:20:50] seriously, if it wasn’t for him and his support and daily, I had to call him every morning [00:20:55] before I got on the phone and made my calls, I had to call him like after every single appointment.[00:21:00]

’cause he understood that my mind, that I would be dealing with rejection and [00:21:05] adversity and self-doubt. And he knew that I wasn’t equipped at that point, at [00:21:10] 19 years old, to, I didn’t have the tools, but he did. So I called him. I mean, I talked to him [00:21:15] 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 times a day. And he managed my mindset through the ups and the [00:21:20] downs and the no sales and the rejection.

And, you know, and on the, my last appointment on the 10th day, I broke, [00:21:25] you know, broke that record.

Rory: Yeah. See when you’re talking, for some reason, I’m being reminded of [00:21:30] one of my all time favorite quotes, and it’s from Mike Tyson. He says [00:21:35] everyone has a plan punch until, until they punch in, punched in the face, punch face.

Yeah. And [00:21:40] that is how building a personal brand is. Right. Like, there’s not a person that we meet that’s like, I wanna [00:21:45] be a bestselling author. I wanna, I wanna be, I wanna speak on the biggest stages. Yeah. I wanna have a huge [00:21:50] podcast, you know, and it’s not always I wanna make money or be famous, but it’s like, I wanna make an impact.

Yeah.

Rory: And [00:21:55] people, people somehow think that just because they wanna make an impact, it should be easy.

Hal: Yeah.

Rory: And it’s like, [00:22:00] no, it’s extreme work. Yeah. And commitment and dedication over an

Hal: [00:22:05] extended period of time,

Rory: over an extended period of time. Like you have to earn the right [00:22:10] Yeah. To impact other people.

Hal: Yeah.

Rory: And I don’t, and people, I, you know, I don’t, they don’t, [00:22:15] they don’t realize that, you know, recently I was talking, um, at one of our events and I said, you, [00:22:20] you have to decide that your calling matters more than your comfort. [00:22:25]

Hal: Mm-hmm.

Rory: Right? Like, to build your personal brand is, is to go like. I’m, [00:22:30] I’m willing to deal with the rejection.

I’m willing to deal with the uncomfortable, you know, learning new [00:22:35] things and figuring new stuff out. And it’s like, uh, Jasmine Starr was, uh, at an event we had recently speaking, [00:22:40] and I said, you know, how, how much do you enjoy social media? She’s like, I hate it. [00:22:45] I hate social media. Yeah. And I’m like, you’re the queen of social media.

She’s like, I hate every minute of it.

Hal: Wow.

Rory: She’s [00:22:50] like, but that’s not why I do it. I do it because it, it’ll grow my business. Mm. And it was such an epiphany, [00:22:55] like everyone in the room gasped, like, couldn’t believe it was like sacrilege that she would say [00:23:00] that.

Hal: Yeah.

Rory: Going. Oh, she doesn’t actually enjoy this.

She’s doing it [00:23:05] because she’s, and she’s like me. But it’s that separation. We all go, well, the reason she’s big on social media is ’cause she [00:23:10] loves it and she doesn’t have anything else to do with her time.

Hal: That’s why I think about everyone. I see it. ’cause I don’t like social media. I’m like everyone, I’m [00:23:15] like, oh, I wish I liked it like they did.

So, that’s such a great point,

Rory: Uhhuh. Um, that’s really powerful. So I [00:23:20] wanna ask you about, you, you, you, you mentioned, you’ve been talking about affirmations and you mentioned discipline. [00:23:25]

Hal: Hmm.

Rory: So, you know, we met around the days of my first book, take the Stairs, which was all about [00:23:30] self-discipline. And I wanted to talk to you about the difference between identity [00:23:35] and self-discipline.

Hal: Hmm.

Rory: And which one do you think matters more [00:23:40] or. Or do they work together? Or like, uh, what’s the, what is [00:23:45] your view on establishing someone’s identity versus like [00:23:50] creating discipline? ’cause ’cause affirmations to me is more like identity. It’s [00:23:55] more of like who I’m gonna be. But then the whole, you know, savior’s routine is like, that’s a discipline.

Yeah. [00:24:00] Like, you’re sitting down and doing those, the practices. So how do you reconcile those two concepts? Or what do you think [00:24:05] about in your own journey and with the, you know, the millions of people that have gone through Miracle Mourning?

Hal: Yeah. To [00:24:10] me it’s a yes. And, and they’re done simultaneously. Uh, and it brings [00:24:15] up, I was at a father son like adventure retreat the other day.

And, uh, yeah, it was cool. [00:24:20] And they talked about courage and we were talking about all these attributes of becoming a man, you know, a [00:24:25] young man and, uh, and courage. And they talked, they pointed out that courage is not the absence [00:24:30] of fear. Mm-hmm. It’s, it literally can’t exist without fear. ’cause it’s doing the thing you’re [00:24:35] afraid of doing.

Mm-hmm. And thus you are mustering up courage. And so what that makes me think about [00:24:40] is. Self-discipline, uh, self-discipline is doing the thing that you don’t feel [00:24:45] like doing otherwise. It doesn’t take discipline if you feel like doing it, it [00:24:50] requires zero self-discipline.

Rory: Mm-hmm.

Hal: And so I think that people, and then you bring in the identity piece, they’re like, [00:24:55] I’m just not self-disciplined.

It’s like no one is, you know? [00:25:00] And, and at least not to start. And I was just talking to our friends, Sean Johnson and Andrew East, and we were [00:25:05] talking about this, about how my identity deep seated in my subconscious from when [00:25:10] I was a kid is I view myself as lazy. I view myself as undisciplined. [00:25:15] And it’s like, but, but anyone from the outside goes, well, no, no, dude, you do all [00:25:20] the things.

But for me, it’s, I don’t feel like doing them. [00:25:25] And so that makes me think that I’m not disciplined ’cause I don’t feel like doing ’em. So I’m actually, [00:25:30] as I’m, we’re talking about this, I’m even kind of coaching myself like, well, no, [00:25:35] discipline isn’t feeling like doing them. It’s doing them even though you don’t feel like it.[00:25:40]

Rory: Yeah.

Hal: And you know, uh, John Maxwell, who I know, you’re, I think he has, doesn’t he have a book with you guys? Yeah. With mission driven [00:25:45] masters? Yeah. Uh, he, he didn’t publish a Mission Driven press, but he’s a client. Yeah. We a client. Yeah. Our

Rory: last launch.

Hal: So [00:25:50] John Maxwell, uh, one of the greatest lessons I learned from his book, failing Forward, is, [00:25:55] uh, to act your way into feeling.

Rory: Mm-hmm.

Hal: He said, nobody [00:26:00] feels like doing what they need to do, but the people that are disciplined go, [00:26:05] I don’t feel like it. And then they just get up and they walk through the door.

Rory: Yeah.

Hal: [00:26:10] And so, um, I, I really took that to like, to working out and I go, wow. The [00:26:15] secret to getting in the best shape of your life.

Don’t, don’t think about it as working out. ’cause that [00:26:20] that’s gonna make you not do it. Discipline. All you need to do is pack your gym bag the night [00:26:25] before. Have it sitting out, set an alarm that just says, get in the car with your gym bag.

Rory: [00:26:30] Mm-hmm.

Hal: And I go and, and like, ’cause that’s, that takes almost no discipline.[00:26:35]

But if you grab your gym bag. Easy. Just grab the gym bag off the coffee table. And then [00:26:40] you get in your car. Well, now there’s momentum. Where are you Probably gonna drive [00:26:45] to the gym. And then you’re gonna like, ah, then you’re gonna grab your gym bag off the couch and you’re still, [00:26:50] you’re still negative self-talk.

Like, I don’t feel like this, I don’t really wanna [00:26:55] work out. But you’re, you’re doing it, you’re, you’re maintaining this way. Then you get outta the car and you walk in the gym. Well dude, [00:27:00] now speakers are blaring. The energy is palpable. People are [00:27:05] running like, you know, you’re okay. Now your energy and motivation are going up.

And then you’re [00:27:10] like, I got a gym bag in my hand. I guess I’ll go get dressed. Then you go get dressed and you’re like, well, now I’m just, I [00:27:15] mean, I’m might as well walk over to the treadmill. I’m here. Then you go to the treadmill, then you’re like, ah, 10 minutes go right? [00:27:20] And then all of a sudden, and then now you actually feel more motivated.

You just get in the best shape of [00:27:25] your life. One picking up of the gym bag at a time. Not one workout at a time. Don’t, don’t think that [00:27:30] far ahead. That’s gonna discourage you from even packing the gym bag. So it’s like when you [00:27:35] think about, again, act your way into feeling. And so for me, my alarm clock for the Miracle Morning, [00:27:40] that’s how I got myself to become a morning person.

This is like a huge hack. And it’s what worked for my coaching clients at the time [00:27:45] that said, I’m not a mor. When I first created The Miracle Morning, it was just for [00:27:50] me. I didn’t know I’d ever teach it to ano a single person. It wasn’t a book idea. And then, I mean, it was like, [00:27:55] it was like God having one of my coaching clients, a, a a few, like a month or two after I [00:28:00] started doing My Miracle Morning.

Every day when my coaching clients goes, Hal, do you have a morning routine? I keep [00:28:05] hearing about, like, I read up morning routines. I go and I’m just beaming. I go, oh [00:28:10] my gosh. I like, I’m so excited to tell you about this. And I, and I tell her all about Miracle Morning. She’s like, [00:28:15] I’ll try it. I’ll try it for a week.

I said, I have to give you one tip because she’s like, I’m not a morning person. I said, the big, the the [00:28:20] game changer was I moved my alarm clock from my bed from my phone or my bedside table [00:28:25] to my bathroom sink. If you can, and this is for everybody listening, if you’re not a morning [00:28:30] person, this is a hack.

And if you alarm goes off and you can wake [00:28:35] up and reach over and turn it off while you’re still half asleep, good luck mustering up any [00:28:40] discipline to do what you need to do. But if you have to get out of bed, if you’re upright and now you’re [00:28:45] moving your body, you’re, you’re 10 x more awake than you were when you were [00:28:50] fumbling to the, the, the, the tableside.

So get outta bed. And then for me, it’s right next to the wa the bathroom [00:28:55] sink. And I have a clo cup of water there, which is like a, a reminder that I’m gonna hydrate and then my [00:29:00] toothbrush brush teeth, and every minute you’re awake, it’s that much easier to stay awake. Right. [00:29:05] So within a couple of minutes of washing my face, brushing my teeth, now I’m upright.

It’s like, oh, I can stay up for the [00:29:10] rest of the meal.

Rory: Yeah. The power momentum is so important. Yeah. One that there was, uh, you know, there was a time in my [00:29:15] life where I was about 40 pounds heavier than I am now. Wow. And, and one of the greatest hacks I [00:29:20] had, which helped me lose 45 pounds was I made a deal with myself, which [00:29:25] was.

I don’t have to work out, I just [00:29:30] have to go to the gym. Yes.

Hal: That’s

Rory: it. And if I, if I get to the gym

Hal: Yep.

Rory: And I’m there and I [00:29:35] don’t wanna work out, I’m allowed to turn around and drive home.

Hal: Dude, I loved

Rory: it. It was a total, [00:29:40] like, just deal. And then it’s like, and I think there was one time where I actually did turn around and I was like, I [00:29:45] was like, sick or something.

I’m like, I really just, but it was like every time, by the time you’re there,

Hal: [00:29:50] yeah.

Rory: The decision. Good. The decision you, the living epitome

Hal: of a theoretical lesson that I just taught. Yeah. [00:29:55] That’s so,

Rory: that’s so, that’s so good. Yeah. So, um, let’s talk [00:30:00] about Miracle Morning. And this is like, I mean, this thing’s become a movement.[00:30:05]

How have you done the business of this? Y you know, I’m, I, I, I [00:30:10] wanna, like you, you’ve, how many books are there in the series? How did you structure the [00:30:15] co-authoring? How have you done the international deals? Like Yeah. You’ve taken [00:30:20] a book, which by the way, if people don’t know this is worth saying, was self-published.[00:30:25]

That was a self-published book. So,

Hal: until two years ago.

Rory: Until two years ago,

Hal: yeah. The first 11 [00:30:30] years it was self-published.

Rory: Yeah. So like, you know, millions of copies. As a self-published [00:30:35] author, how did you start structuring deals and like co-authoring things and [00:30:40] like licensing this, I guess if this is the term, because it it made it a worldwide movement.

Hal: Yeah. So it [00:30:45] kind of start at the beginning in terms of the launch of the book. So I self-published the book, uh, it took me [00:30:50] three years to write. I’m not a fast writer. It took me three years. Um, and I had no publisher with a deadline. So [00:30:55] it was like, I was just writing, you know, each day. Like, and uh, when I was [00:31:00] coming out with the book, I had a, I had like advanced readers and I just, the feedback I was getting, [00:31:05] even through the three years that I wrote it, ’cause I was teaching it in interviews at speeches [00:31:10] to my clients.

So I had tons of feedback of this is changing my [00:31:15] life.

Rory: Hmm.

Hal: And so that fueled me of like, I, and this is important. I have a [00:31:20] responsibility to share this message. That, that’s literally why I did it. I [00:31:25] never, first of all, never in a million years did I imagine that it would sell a million [00:31:30] or 3 million co.

Never. I taught it to my coaching clients. I taught to the one, and [00:31:35] for her at work, she’s like, oh my gosh, I’m running, I’m, I remember Katie Haney is her name. She like, she was the first [00:31:40] person, like, I’m not a morning personnel, but I routines good, Katie. Yeah, she’s crushes. And so, um,

Rory: because if you had failed [00:31:45] Katie, this may have never happened.

Hal: Literally, I wouldn’t because, because she came back to her call and I was like, she’s like, oh my gosh, how [00:31:50] I did it? I moved the alarm clocks to the room. I’m up every day, I’m running. I’m like, I’m doing it. [00:31:55] And I go, oh, wait a minute. I got, I’m gonna teach this to my other 13 coaching clients. So I teach it to [00:32:00] all of them.

Most of them resist saying I’m not a morning person. And then, um, they, 13 outta [00:32:05] 14 came to the next call and they’re like, oh my gosh. Um, it’s, it’s working. It’s amazing. So then I go, okay, [00:32:10] if it worked for them, and it worked for me. And none of us were morning people. None of us identified as morning people.

[00:32:15] This could work for anyone. I have to write a book. Okay. So that, that’s, so, it’s like I have a responsibility to [00:32:20] share this with the world.

Rory: Mm.

Hal: Um, so that, that’s an

Rory: important

Hal: huge switch that has

Rory: to [00:32:25] flip for all of us. Mm-hmm. Like when you’re doing it for fame, you’re doing it for money, [00:32:30] you’re doing it ’cause you think you’re supposed to, like you’re doing it ’cause someone else told you, da dah, dah, dah, dah, [00:32:35] you’ll burn out.

Hal: Yep.

Rory: Like the only sustaining drive that it, [00:32:40] that it, to do what it takes to make it, I think in this business is, it’s like that switch has to flip [00:32:45] where you go, I feel obligated to share what I have with other [00:32:50] people. Yeah. And then

Hal: once that switch flips, it’s like, okay, now we’re talking. [00:32:55] Yeah. And it’s, I mean, and I’m living example of that in terms of Miracle Morning came [00:33:00] out on 12, 12 12, December 12th, 2012.

It’s 13 years later. [00:33:05] I still do interviews. It’s not self-published. I don’t make very much money on the book anymore. Right. Like, I make pennies on what I used to make, [00:33:10] but. You

Rory: sold it to a

Hal: experience. I sold it to a publisher, but it’s my mi it’s my life’s [00:33:15] work. I will, I don’t see me stopping for the rest of my life.

So anyway, back, [00:33:20] back up. Um, so book comes out and I’m setting my goals for the year and, ’cause it came out [00:33:25] December 12th, 2012. So I’m like, all right, set my 2013 goals. And I just, [00:33:30] I go, I’m gonna change 1 million lives one morning at a time. I’m gonna try to sell, reach a million [00:33:35] people with the Miracle Morning this year.

And it was very naive goal. It wasn’t based on any data. I had [00:33:40] no audience, I wasn’t well known. I had no podcast. I had I, no nothing. [00:33:45] And, uh, but I was like, it’s my responsibility. And I just believe in setting big. I have no [00:33:50] problem. I believe in the Jim, other than another Jim Rowan philosophy, which is the purpose of a goal is not to hit the goal [00:33:55] who it makes of you by giving it everything you have until the last possible moment and [00:34:00] beyond.

Mm-hmm. Right. So that’s, I’m like, I’m gonna give it everything. I have to sell a million copies. And I affirmed that every day. I am [00:34:05] committed to, to do everything in my power. To sell, to change 1 million lives [00:34:10] one morning at a time. That was my mission driven message that inspired me a lot more than sell a million [00:34:15] books.

’cause who, who cares about a mil? Right? Like that wouldn’t motivate me. So my mission was change [00:34:20] 1 million lives one morning at a time. And how close did you get in the first 12 months? This is my, I [00:34:25] love, it’s my favorite stories. So, um, I was 987,000 copies short of my goal. [00:34:30] So I failed by 98.7% [00:34:35] Uhhuh. But I want you to know, I did everything in my power dude.

I was on 152 podcasts and that was [00:34:40] before pod, like there were probably one 10,000 as many podcasts.

Rory: Yeah. That must have been [00:34:45] what That must have been how we very first met. ’cause I was just like, I had just been podcasting for a few years. That [00:34:50] must have been,

Hal: when did you start?

Rory: Well, it was our, at our former company, I had a [00:34:55] podcast that I think I started in like 2012.

Okay. Right. So right in that 20 13, 14, [00:35:00] 15, it was started to grow and I, I bet that’s right the way That’s right about when we met.

Hal: Yeah. And the way I got on [00:35:05] podcasts was my Cutco skills. The way Cutco sold is referrals. You do an appointment and then [00:35:10] at the end, whether you buy or not, I say, Hey, Rory, did you, how’d you like the presentation?

He goes, it’s great. You go, anybody you could refer me to that would [00:35:15] be nice enough to let me show this to them. And so every podcast I did at the end, I’d go, Hey, how was that? They, oh, it’s [00:35:20] amazing. This is gonna, you know, I said, um, I’m really trying to get on more shows and share the Miracle Morning. Who do you [00:35:25] know?

That would be nice enough, maybe a podcaster that would have me on their show, and then I would send them a template to, and like they would, you [00:35:30] know, and so that’s, I got 152 podcasts. I gave 36 speeches across the country for, [00:35:35] I was probably making a couple thousand dollars a speech back then. And I think it was mostly colleges [00:35:40] too.

I was just getting started. I did not have, I didn’t have much money at the time, and so [00:35:45] on a credit card, I paid this PR company to get me on 13 morning television talk [00:35:50] shows. Mm-hmm. Good morning, Sacramento. Good Day, Houston, right? Sure. You name it. Uh, [00:35:55] so I did everything like literally, and I didn’t have kids at the time.

I worked six, seven days a week, [00:36:00] two change a million lives, and I was 987,000 copies short. And here’s [00:36:05] the lesson in that. I mean, there’s a few lessons, but one is be to your point, you [00:36:10] have to be, you have to have a mission, a purpose. I remember setting the goals for [00:36:15] the next year and I go. This doesn’t change my goal, it’s just that my timeline was way [00:36:20] off and I got a calculator.

I divided 1 million times, 13,000 copies a year. Yeah. Is [00:36:25] 77 years, at which time I would’ve been 110 years old.

Rory: Yeah.

Hal: And so I basically, in that moment, [00:36:30] I was like, and I think I wrote my affirmations. I’m committed to change 1 million lives one morning at a [00:36:35] time no matter what. And no matter how long it takes,

Rory: and I have to live to be [00:36:40] 110

Hal: years.

Yeah. 110 years old. And so year two, I did everything again, everything in my power. I sold [00:36:45] 23,000 copies. So it’s like, it’s up a little, but it’s like, it’s still nowhere where I need to need to be. [00:36:50] But I go, this is my life’s work. You know? And, and then it ended up being six [00:36:55] years, uh, to get to a million copies.

And here’s, [00:37:00] here’s the path, and that’s what people need to understand because it’s far [00:37:05] more important, the commitment that you have to do whatever it takes [00:37:10] for as long as it takes. You genuinely believe that it is your [00:37:15] mission to deliver. Like the, I I don’t, I I didn’t come up with the miracle morning, like [00:37:20] God whispered it here and whispered it there and put this person in my life and this person in my life, right?

And, [00:37:25] and so I feel like this is my life’s work. This is my mission. Um, which also made it easier, by the way, [00:37:30] with everything that we’re gonna talk about with like the series and stuff is, you know, ’cause all these opportunities started coming outta the woodwork at [00:37:35] one point and you’re tempted to be like, oh yes, sure, yes, yes.

And at one point I go, I’m saying no to [00:37:40] everything. That doesn’t help get the Miracle Morning into people’s lives. And that’s why we made the Miracle Morning movie. [00:37:45] The Miracle Morning App, 15 books of the Miracle Morning series, right? ’cause like, oh, now I know what to say yes [00:37:50] to. It’s things that help support this mission.

Right? Um, [00:37:55] so lemme turn it back over to you. Remind me of the question or where you want me to go next.

Rory: [00:38:00] Well, I, I think so I was just asking you about how the licensing all happened and the co the co-authors and [00:38:05] how you started to structure like the business side of Yes. Of that. And when’s the right time to like [00:38:10] create a.

You know, a subsidiary title and like when’s the right time to do [00:38:15] international deals and that kind of thing.

Hal: Let’s talk. Yeah, we’ll talk series. So we’ll go, let’s go series, then we go [00:38:20] like international, then app. In that order, I’ll go chronologically. A buddy of mine, [00:38:25] uh, that I used to saw Cutco with Ryan Snow, who is now a top real estate.

He, he ran a real estate [00:38:30] office. He reached out to me and he said, Hey, I have given Miracle Morning [00:38:35] to everybody on my team, half of them. And he goes and I check in with them with accountability like we [00:38:40] used to do at Cutco. Half of them have read the book and are doing the Miracle Morning every day. Half of them are not give or [00:38:45] take, and he said the half that are doing it, every single one of [00:38:50] their sales are up the half that are not, their sales are not up.[00:38:55]

He said, that cannot be a coincidence. Have you thought about doing a [00:39:00] Miracle Morning like a series Miracle Morning for salespeople where you [00:39:05] customize the entire Miracle Morning practice? The affirmations, right? For. A [00:39:10] salesperson. I said, no, or I said, I thought of it, but I don’t know how to do it. I said, [00:39:15] do you want to, you want to co-author a book together?

He goes, sure. So it just super organic. Right. [00:39:20] Then I met Honoree quarter, I think you know honoree, don’t you?

Rory: I do,

Hal: yeah. And I met Honoree because she [00:39:25] wrote a Good Reads review for Miracle Morning, and I, and it just caught my attention. It was so heartfelt and so [00:39:30] sweet. And then I googled her and it turns out she’s the creator of the, the successful single mom book [00:39:35] series.

Now she’s written like 50 books, but back then she had the successful single mom book series. So [00:39:40] I’m, I messaged her. I’m like, Hey, thank you so much for this review. I really appreciate it. Then we end up getting on a call and I’m [00:39:45] like, Hey, how’d you do a book series? Would you mind sharing that with me?

And she tells me, and, and then I go, you wanna do a book [00:39:50] series with me? You wanna, you know, you wanna like help me with this? And so I end up hiring her to help [00:39:55] me. Produce the book series and right, and then, and then it just takes off and then it’s just organic. Where I’m [00:40:00] at Genius Network with Joe Polish, we become friends and he, he decides to Miracle Morning for addiction [00:40:05] recovery.

I have a real estate trainer, Michael Mayer, reach out, say, Hey, miracle Morning needs to be, let’s do real estate [00:40:10] agent one. And now there’s 15 books give or take in the series for college students, for parents and [00:40:15] families, so on and so forth. And here’s what I would say, I have people approach me a [00:40:20] lot, Hey, how do you do a book series?

I have, you know, my book’s out, [00:40:25] been out for six months, how do I do a book series? Uh, and I always ask them, how many copies has your [00:40:30] flagship book sold? You know, a thousand, 2000, 4,000, 5,000, or whatever. [00:40:35] I say, well, let me explain. Here’s my recommendation is that you put all of your [00:40:40] energy into selling a hundred thousand copies of that book.

And then once you do that, [00:40:45] then you. Consider Fran, you know, franchising and creating spinoffs because your [00:40:50] spinoffs will sell a fraction of what the original cells, yet they will require arguably as much effort [00:40:55] to write and create that book sometimes even more. ’cause now you’re managing co-authors and so [00:41:00] on and so forth.

Um, so that’s really what, you know. Do you partner with the [00:41:05] authors or do you just pay them a fee to do it? Or like, so the way that I did it, who write? Are they completely [00:41:10] different? Are all of them completely different? I created a template. Okay. So it’s the first four [00:41:15] chapters. Okay. Um, and with a bunch of fill in the blanks, like [00:41:20] affirmations are important for blank because of blank.

Right. So I have a [00:41:25] template that’s the first four chapters that sums up the entire original miracle Morning, less of my story, more of the [00:41:30] tactics, et cetera. Um, and then the co-author, and then we actually, I take that back. We had [00:41:35] seven chapters pre-written. Uh, the next three chapters are just generic [00:41:40] mi uh.

Personal development that applies to everyone. Like how do you optimize your energy and your [00:41:45] mindset, right? So I wanted to create as much as I could, but also fill in the blanks. [00:41:50] And then they would write, so they would fill in all the blanks to customize the entire book [00:41:55] for the niche. And then the last three chapters would be their original content.[00:42:00]

So that was, and the reason I did that is I wanted to leave as little room for error. [00:42:05] Uh, meaning like, you know, instead of having them write six chapters and being like, oh, this is [00:42:10] too much. It’s all over the place, whatever. Now I will say some of my co-authors were adamant that they wrote that they [00:42:15] only kept the four Miracle Morning chapters and they wrote six chapters.

Rory: Okay.

Hal: Um, and I, you know, I, which [00:42:20] was fine. Um, but my biggest fear when I wrote it, and I think it’s for any author, [00:42:25] right? It’s like, you know, you’re thinking, oh, what if people don’t like this? And what if the reviews start pouring in that this book’s [00:42:30] terrible and I’m an imposter imposter syndrome. That was my fear is like, how do I make this so [00:42:35] it’s not a rip off of the original, where if they’ve read the original, they’re like, oh, this is just like, you know, like the [00:42:40] same.

Uh, and I think we struck a perfect balance. In fact, the average [00:42:45] five star, or the average rating for the series books is, is 4.8 outta five [00:42:50] stars across all 15 books. The original Miracle Morning is 4.6 outta five stars. So people [00:42:55] actually rate the series books higher. Um, yeah. So that was kind of the, the [00:43:00] formula.

And then I would bring on a co-author. I would usually introduce him to Honoree ’cause she was [00:43:05] more helping produce the books on the backend.

Rory: Okay.

Hal: Um, and, uh, so I’d go to an event, I’d meet somebody [00:43:10] and, you know, and, Hey Cameron Harold I met. He is like, let’s do an entrepreneur one. I’m like, great idea.

Meet honoree. And then honoree would help [00:43:15] guide them through this process that we had designed. Um, and then, uh, yeah, [00:43:20] and then they would, you know, we’d promote a, to each of our lists and, and so on and so forth. Oh, and the way I structured the finances, this is important. [00:43:25] When I was creating the first series book, I watched an eeb, pagan interview with Tony [00:43:30] Robbins.

Rory: Okay. And

Hal: Eeb said one of his business philosophies is that, [00:43:35] is to learn to love to get the short end of the stick. He said everybody wants to, as [00:43:40] they want to capture as much as they can. And when I was creating the series, I reached out to two [00:43:45] Chicken Soup for the Soul co-authors and I said, Hey, what, what did you like?

I’m [00:43:50] creating a series. What did you like about it? What didn’t you like about it? What anything you wish were [00:43:55] different that I can take into this, this process? And what they said is, you know, um, [00:44:00] and I, this is not on the record in terms of like, this is my recollection, was that they [00:44:05] didn’t make a lot of money from the books because I think they were traditionally published and then they were getting a little piece of what Mark [00:44:10] and Victor were getting, right?

So I thought, I don’t ever want a co-op, I want this to be a huge financial win for [00:44:15] my co-authors. So I decided that it was going to be 50 50 where they [00:44:20] got 50% of the royalty. I got 50%, and then I split my [00:44:25] 50% with honoree who helped me produce the series so that everybody won.

Rory: Yeah, [00:44:30] I, I remember, you know, I didn’t grow up.

Around money. And one of the first [00:44:35] times that I met a very wealthy, like business person, I remember [00:44:40] he told me at a luncheon, he said, the key to this is to have [00:44:45] a small percentage of a really big pie.

Hal: There you go. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that’s like, that’s [00:44:50] what re always says is I’d rather have, yeah, a small broth, a little bit of a, a watermelon and then a [00:44:55] lot of a grape.

Rory: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So, um, and then what about [00:45:00] international? So, so how do you do international deals and is it different for traditional publishing [00:45:05] versus self-publishing?

Hal: Yeah, like, so again, this is organic the way that it works for me. [00:45:10] So, um, or the way it worked for me, I was at a, an entrepreneurial dinner in San Diego.

Um, [00:45:15] Mike Kenigs was there, do you know Mike?

Rory: Mm-hmm.

Hal: Um, John Asraf was there, John Lee Dumas was [00:45:20] there. Um, I only knew, uh, I only knew a couple of people and, uh, I remember being there. My wife texted me, how’s it [00:45:25] going? And I’m like. Dude, that guy from The Secrets here, like, I’m like, these are, I’m like [00:45:30] this guy named Mike Kig.

I like went to his event last year. I’m like, I don’t know how I got invited to this dinner. I [00:45:35] remember that. And uh, and, and I get introduced to Mike from John Lee Dumas because I’ve been on John’s [00:45:40] podcast and we’re talking about Miracle Morning and Mike or John’s like, dude, household like a hundred thousand [00:45:45] copies of Miracle Morning.

And Mike’s like, what? And he goes, do you have an agent? And I go, no, I’m self-published. He goes, [00:45:50] what? He said, have you thought about leveraging that a hundred thousand into a book deal? I go, I’d [00:45:55] love to, but I don’t know. I don’t know how to do that. I don’t know where to start. He goes, well, you need an agent.

And I have the best agent. [00:46:00] So he introduces me to Celeste Fine. Who’s my agent to this day? Love her [00:46:05] to death. She’s the best. And

Rory: she’s an agent for a lot of our clients.

Hal: Oh really? Yeah. Yes. Mm-hmm. Love Celeste. Um, we set a [00:46:10] call, we talk, you know, often, but, uh, so he introduces us and I remember before the meeting, I was [00:46:15] so nervous, so nervous.

I’m like, she’s not gonna work with me. She represents all these big names. And um, and then [00:46:20] we get on the call and she is like selling me. I’m working with her. I’m like, oh, this is cool. [00:46:25] So I ended up signing with her and she pitches me to New York publishers, um, to [00:46:30] traditionally publish New York Morning, which in my mind was if I wanna reach, because I was at a hundred thousand copies, I’m like, if I wanna [00:46:35] reach a million people, this is the next step.

I’ve gotta be a serious, traditionally published author. Right, right. [00:46:40] And be in stores and all of that. And, and back then, that was actually a lot more true than it is now. This was [00:46:45] 2013, you know, 14. And so we meet with publishers, I [00:46:50] get 13 offers. Uh, the biggest one is for $250,000 advance. [00:46:55] So I to to do the math for folks.

I was selling [00:47:00] upwards of 10,000 copies a month at that point, at $7 a book [00:47:05] in royalties as a self-published author.

Rory: $70,000 a month.

Hal: Yeah. And, and actually I take it back, I [00:47:10] think at that point I was at like $35,000 a month, but significant. Right?

Rory: [00:47:15] Yeah.

Hal: So I go, wait a minute.

Rory: Who says you can’t make money from books, by the way?

Exactly. Right. 35 Gs a month. [00:47:20] Yeah. That’s like, that’s real dope.

Hal: And so I’m doing the math like. So that’s eight [00:47:25] months of what I’m making right now. And then I get paid eight to 12% [00:47:30] for the rest of my life. And I felt ter, I’m a people pleaser, um, by nature. [00:47:35] And so I’m like, oh, Celeste worked so hard to get me these meetings, and like, I feel really bad.

WWK Ep 007: Scaling Your Business Without Losing Your Life

Rory (00:00)
How do you keep growing your business without your life becoming completely chaotic, stressful, and overwhelming? That is the theme of the show today on Wealthy and Well-Known. This is the podcast that is meant to help you build your personal brand so that you can grow your influence, your impact, and your income. As always, I’m joined by my co-founder, co-author, best friend, beautiful wife, AJ Vaden. Welcome to the show.

AJ (00:26)
Welcome to the show. So glad I’m here.

Rory (00:28)
Well, you’re on the hot seat today because we’re talking about scaling a business. You are the CEO of Brand Builders Group. You’re the also the CEO of Mission Driven Press, Nashville Creative Spaces. So we run three different businesses. You manage three P &Ls. We bought a building last year, remodeled the building. We are on this very day moving into a house that we have been building for two years. We’ve lived in three rental homes over the course of that time. We’ve got two kids that are

homeschooled. But we got a lot going on and by we I mostly mean you and I you are the one who’s managing most of that. ⁓ And so we want to talk about how do you increase revenue while keeping your hours flat or even reducing them? And I want to start with that question. I want you to share what your work schedule is and how it is evolved in terms of hours per week you worked when we started in our first business.

AJ (00:59)
Not by me.

Rory (01:27)
versus how many hours per week do you officially work on like work related business stuff now.

AJ (01:35)
Yeah, you know, wow, there’s there’s so much in that introduction. I I think it’s really important to start with just a high level reflection of I most certainly do not have this figured out, ⁓ nor do you. Right. And this is not a conversation today of let me tell you all the things we’ve learned and how you can do it, too. This is a journey.

And there have been some really good lessons we’ve learned and we’ve implemented. There are some that I am most certainly still learning and adjusting. So I just want to preface that this is a journey for all of us. And I think where I would love to see this conversation go today is not about how do you grow revenue and you shorten your hours. I think that’s, in my opinion, the wrong way to look at this.

And instead of going like, what’s the best and highest use of my time in each season of life and what can come out of that. And I think that’s been a difference of viewpoints of why my schedule was what it is and what it is today. And if your main goal and your main focus is just to grow revenue, to scale your business, to grow revenues and increase profits,

then I think you do have the great temptation to overwork yourself because it’s at everything is subservient to the ambitious goals that you have. And I think that’s an unhealthy place to be. And I can only say that because that was me for a really, really, really, really long time.

Rory (03:09)
Tell us that story. Where did we start? How much were you working? What was that ambition like?

AJ (03:15)
I think it was just what you said. It was like what you hear from everyone around you and even what you tell yourself is, you you work harder, set bigger goals, work longer hours, you know, work till your eyes bleed, right? And there’s some of that in that hustle culture mentality is like, don’t get me wrong. We work hard. Like, and I have high work ethic expectations for our team. ⁓ I believe that there is value in hard work. I believe that hard work produces a character

in a person that is invaluable, ⁓ knowing how to work hard and do things right is absolutely a skill set that I believe in, invest in. And this is not saying like, don’t work hard. I work really hard with constraints. And I think the constraints are the part that are really important because if you don’t have constraints on how hard you work, then it becomes all about your own efforts. And you forget that nothing happens by yourself.

And I think when we live in this world of like, just put in more hours, just put in more hours, just work longer, ⁓ what we start to believe about ourselves is that we’re doing all of it. And you’re never the one doing all of it. This is no surprise that I am very big into my faith. And it’s like, I first and foremost realized in my previous life that I was trying to do it all on my own. Is I was all doing it through the lens of striving and proving, which was…

I’ll outwork everybody. I’ll prove to everyone that I am just as a hard worker. I’m just as successful. I’ll produce the most revenue. I’ll make the most money. But that was out of a striving and approving for approval of my peers, right? And it was a ⁓ culture in which it was like I took a lot of pride in having 60, 70, 80 hour work weeks. ⁓ But what doesn’t get talked about is how you have no friends. You have no life.

⁓ You have no time with the Lord. I had no time to have reflection. I had no time to work out. It was work, work, work, work, work, work, And yeah, did that produce a lot of revenue? Sure did. Did it also produce a lot of unhealthy habits and loneliness and no social life and a lot of regrets? Sure did. And so I think those are where the constraints.

are really important. And I think when a lot of people talk about, you just got to work harder, it’s just got to be longer hours, more time at the office. What we don’t talk about is at what cost, right? At what cost is striving for scale and revenue and profits actually going to cost you? And that is missing your kids’ soccer game. It’s missing birthday parties, weddings, anniversaries, baby showers. ⁓

Yo, it ain’t worth it. It’s not worth it.

Rory (05:58)
I think

one of the most defining characteristics between our first business and our second business was the hours we allowed ourselves to work. Our first business, we worked 14 hours a day, maybe not 14 hours a day, but we were working by 8 a.m. definitely till 6 p.m. A very normal day. sure 10 to 12 hours. And I remember the very beginning was six days a week.

AJ (06:19)
10 to 12 hours a day was a very

Rory (06:26)
For me, it was six days a week.

AJ (06:29)
Some of that is to be expected in a heavy startup season. It’s just like, yeah, you should expect to have no sleep when you have a new baby. There are seasons of, it’s going to be intense. You just can’t let those seasons become your life. I think that’s the thing. There are going to be those spurts and seasons of, it’s the end of year. I’m doing budgets. It’s intense. I’m working more hours right now than is normal for me.

Right? Just like if you’re in, if you’re a CPA, tax season is your harvest season, right? It’s going to be more intense, a new baby, all of the things. just, what’s important is not that you don’t do that. It’s that you don’t let it become your life.

Rory (07:10)
Right. And I think when we started Brand Builders Group, our second business, we said, we are going to stop at 5 p.m. and if we can’t achieve something between the hours of 8 and 5, then we’re going to trust that the Lord doesn’t want us to have that. And if he does want us to have it, he will fill in the gap and he will do the rest. And that to me is the most definitive difference

between our mindset and our attitude and the practicality of our schedule between our first and our second business.

AJ (07:43)
Yeah, and I wouldn’t say that it’s a hard stop at five every single day. Some days I end earlier than five, some days definitely linger after five. I think the hardship that happens that I think has to happen with every individual, doesn’t matter what your role is, is what are you doing it for? And I think that’s the most important conversation with scale. What are you doing it for? What are you scaling for? ⁓ I remember at an event that we had at Brand Builders Group a couple of years ago,

someone raised their hand and they were just like, I’m on the path to seven figures. Like, that’s my goal. And I just said, well, tell me why. Why do you want to hit seven figures? And it was like, I thought it was going to be like some profound answer. And he was like, I don’t know. like, I can’t answer your question until you can tell me why you want to hit seven figures. Like, what is it that going to do to you? And I think a lot of us, hit, or we set these ⁓ goals.

But we don’t even know why. And when we get really honest with ourselves, we go, maybe that was for the wrong reason. And I think that’s where it becomes unhealthy is when we set these huge, audacious goals for the wrong reasons. It’s not that you shouldn’t set huge goals. I set huge goals. It’s important. The reason is important. And I think that’s important ⁓ contextually of like, you gotta not set it by yourself.

And I think that’s another thing about scale is, you forcing it? Is your team on board with it? Is your family on board with it? Because those are family and team decisions. Those are not owner, founder, and individual decisions because you don’t scale by yourself. You don’t grow by yourself. That requires a team. It requires your family. It requires your spouse. It includes a unified commitment from everyone around you.

Otherwise, you’re just dragging everyone around with you and there’s bitterness and resentment and tension. And then that’s when stress and burnout comes is because you’re dragging everyone along with you on some goal that you’ve set that you didn’t include anyone else on. So as we’re talking about scale and growing without burnout, ⁓ I think that often happens because you didn’t do it as a team. You didn’t make this goal. You didn’t plan this goal as a family or a team.

depending if it’s a personal or professional goal, and all of a sudden you’re outpacing everyone because they’re like, we weren’t on board with this. And that’s where I think a lot of the stress and the burnout comes from. other thing I would say about the limit to the hours, here’s one of the things that I have learned about the limiting to the hours is something that you actually talked about.

Maybe in Take the Stairs, maybe in Procrastinate on Purpose. I don’t know. They’re blurring together at the moment. But it’s the law of Douglas MacArthur. Right? You want to tell everyone about the law of Douglas MacArthur?

Rory (10:27)
Yes, the law of Douglas MacArthur says the amount of busy work always expands to fill whatever amount of time you allow to be available.

AJ (10:35)
And I think that is why we put limits on our schedule. It was yes, because it was like, hey, Lord, we’re going to trust that if you want it done, it’ll be done. But that was also from recognizing we’ll always find work to do. There’s always an email to check. There’s always a project to catch up on. I will find work to do. Right. That is not the problem. I think for a lot of people, rest is the harder choice. Not doing anything and knowing that you’re still good enough resting.

I think for me, my addiction has always been work. I think we’re all addicted to something. Mine has always been work. It has been something I’ve had to control and temper. It’s something I’m very self-aware of. It’s a discipline for me to not work.

Rory (11:20)
It’s a very mature decision to reach the place where you say, am consciously, deliberately, intentionally okay with achieving less. If working less means I will have less, I’m okay with less. And that took both of us a long time to get to. ⁓

AJ (11:40)
still getting to. So I think it’s just really important to go, the hours you work do not necessarily mean more revenue or scale or more profits. More hours work does not necessarily equate to growth or scale. It just doesn’t.

Rory (11:54)
So tell me the difference between growth and scale because not everybody understands this. And if you don’t understand this, it literally can ruin your life.

AJ (12:01)
Yeah, growth, and this is how we define it, growth means that your expenses grow at the same intensity that revenue does, right? So revenues are growing, which is what everyone talks about, revenue, revenue, revenue. I know, I’ve never met anyone or heard anyone talk about their expenses, right? It’s like growth means that expenses are growing at the same intensity, the same rate as revenue, right? Everyone talks about how do you…

grow a seven figure business, have a six figure launch. I know I’m talking about how many expenses it took to get there. I think that’s important. Expenses and revenue grow at the same ⁓ rate. That is growth. Scale happens when revenue continues to grow, but expenses flatline, right? It’s that pivot point where you no longer need to keep spending, to keep adding, to keep growing. That’s the difference between growth and scale.

Rory (12:54)
Yeah, so that’s, I think that’s a really key distinction. So I have a question. Why do we scale? Why do you scale? Right? You’re presenting an important part of this conversation, which is to go, why? Are you even clear on why are you growing in the first place? Why are you going to make these sacrifices? Why are you going to work that hard? You know, in our case, why are we going to take

the financial risks of investing in people and products and, you know, now buildings and stuff. And so I don’t know that you and I have necessarily talked specifically about that. So, you know, we now have two kids and, you know, we’ve got scaling businesses. Why have you, we, but I’m really curious, like, genuinely, why have you chosen to scale?

AJ (13:42)
That’s

a great question. And I don’t know if it has been a choice per se. I don’t think that I’ve sat down and go, hey, I am intentionally choosing to grow. And I think that’s a decided difference between this business and our last business, which was very much a, will force this to happen. I will might this to happen. I will give it all my will, all my energy to make it happen. And a lot of that was driven from my own striving, my own proving.

And when we started this business, was different. Different in the sense of I felt like God gave us this business. And I can really say for the first time in my life that I’m doing my life’s work. And so I think there’s some of this where, yes, some days feel like work. Don’t hear what I’m not saying. Some days definitely feel like work. But for the most part, this doesn’t really feel like work to me. This is my ministry.

This is my life’s calling and my hope would be that for all of you who are listening that you get the privilege and the opportunity to do that. That you get the opportunity to go, this isn’t work. This is your ministry. This is your life’s calling that you’re doing something that you’re uniquely positioned to do and you get to grow it. You don’t have to grow it. You get to grow it. So I cannot tell you that I’ve sat down and I’m like,

This is how we’re gonna scale. This is how we’re gonna grow. My attitude for the last seven years has been, we’ll go as fast as we can, as slow as we have to. We’ll grow it as big as it can be without forcing it. And so a lot of it has been organic. A lot of it has been natural. And I think a lot of it has been the byproduct of really loving what we do, solving a need that was clearly present in the marketplace.

and getting really clear on who we serve. I think that the growth and scale has been a byproduct of those things, specifically the growth. The scale took more tweaking and some adjusting along the way. But I think a lot of it really is, it’s like when you’re doing the thing that you were meant to do and you’re doing it well, not that we can’t do things better, we can. I’ll be the first to say that. But when you’re doing the things that you’re meant to do and you do them well,

and you really try to serve people, even if it’s not perfect, but you’re trying. I have just always found things do grow things-

Rory (16:03)
Healthy things grow. ⁓ that is, I would underscore and say, another big difference between our first business and our second business was our first business felt more like we were serving a number on a page. We would have a budget season, we would lock in on a number, and all that mattered was like hitting that number. In this business, it’s more like we’re serving a person and there’s two groups of people that I think that we serve.

One is our customers and we go, what can we do that will help our customers succeed faster? And the other thing that I think about in terms of scale a lot is our team is how can we hire better people? How can we pay them more money? How can we create more career opportunity for people inside of our walls here? And out of that serving the people, the business has grown. And just for context, we got to eight figures with our second business in about half the time.

We got to eight figures in our first, our first,

AJ (16:58)
But I think that’s a natural byproduct and I don’t want to sit here and be like we did everything wrong in our first business. No. The reason that we’ve been able to grow faster in our second business is because of everything we learned the first go around.

Rory (17:10)
That’s right. And we built a reputation in that first.

AJ (17:14)
as a beginner entrepreneur would have been impossible for me to gain and learn, being able to sit in the boardrooms and be a part of financial audits. All my finance skills were learned through the mentorship and leadership ⁓ in our first business. So I’m so grateful for so much that I learned there that we have been able to apply here. But I think one of the things that you said something made me think about this is this quote from Craig Rochelle.

I think this is really important. It’s like he always says you can have control or you can have growth. You cannot have both. And that is something that I have been working on. It’s like if I want growth, then I cannot have control. And that, in my opinion, is where scale starts to happen. I think when you realize, ⁓ I can’t be a part of every meeting. I can’t be a part of every decision. I can’t oversee every finance. I can’t sign off on every expense.

I cannot do all the things at some point if you really want to scale or if you are scaling even if you didn’t want to it’s just happening. You have to realize, ⁓ you no longer get to have control. And I think for some people they can’t release it, which is why burnout happens. I think a lot of stress, a lot of overwhelm and a lot of burnout for entrepreneurs, founders, executives, ⁓ even frontline, you know, salespeople. It’s like,

The burnout happens when you cannot release control. And that, in my opinion, is where most businesses ⁓ actually become stagnant. That’s where they plateau, is because the owner and the founder cannot release control. They will not allow their leadership team to lead. They can’t allow other people to make big decisions because they’ve been the one doing it the whole time. And it’s not that they don’t trust their team. It’s like, it’s always been me.

This is a ⁓ habit you have to unlearn. It is a skill you have to unlearn. It is something that you have to release and to surrender. And those things are scary. And those things take time. And I don’t think it’s because you hired the wrong people or it’s like, no, like those are big, long habits that you now have to unwind. And a lot of that does happen, has to happen in order for scale to take place.

Rory (19:26)
I

think you make a good point there about if you go in order to scale, you have to become a different person. And one of the mindset shifts that has to happen is that shift between control and growth. Another mindset shift that must happen for someone to scale, I think, is you have to let go of perfection. And it’s connected to this issue of control, because you got to where you are by doing everything right and doing everything perfectly. But

you can’t do it all yourself and continue to grow. And so this is something we talk about in procrastinate on purpose, which is 80 % done right by someone else is always better than 100 % done perfectly accurate by you. Or not always, but almost always. And that that is the requirement in order to to scale is to go, I have to deliberately intentionally purposefully be willing to accept

less than perfect for a short window of time by somebody else to go, I could do this better than you, but I’m going to be okay with you doing it and it being imperfect for a short window so that you can learn how to do it. Because long term, if I do it myself, I create a prison of my own construction and I create a life sentence for myself to have to do it versus that little imperfection window is painful.

for a limited time, but then over the long term, you create people around who do things. And one of my favorite quotes from, it’s in our second book, Procrastinating on Purpose, but it’s not from me, it’s from a multiplier Troy that we interviewed. And he said, you reach a point when you start scaling, you realize my job is not to do, my job is to make sure it gets done. And if those switches don’t flipped, you’re never gonna scale.

AJ (21:13)
Yeah, I remember Troy and that conversation was like, if I’m doing something, something has gone terribly wrong. And that is, you know, I think one of the things that we get asked a lot of time, well, you know, how do you know when to hire? Like how, how do you know when is the right time to hire if you can’t be the one to do everything? And before we answer that, I think there are two life questions.

But you have to ask yourself and I actually heard this on an interview you did with Mike McCallewitz years ago and I’ve really held on to it. And here are the two life questions that any entrepreneur needs to ask themselves as they’re starting a business, ideally at the beginning before you start. But if not, you can ask them at any time. Number one, is this a business you’re growing to keep or to sell? Because those are two distinct distinctly different paths. And I think that’s really important.

Right? Is this a lifestyle business? Definitely. Or is this a business that you are growing to sell? That’s important. That’s the first question. The second is do you want employees? Yes or no?

And those are the two most important questions for you to get clear on as an entrepreneur, is are you growing this to keep it or to sell it? And do you want employees, yes or no?

Rory (22:23)
And if you’re

growing it to sell it, you probably are gonna have employees. So that one kind of comes together.

AJ (22:27)
Right. And I think those are two and neither are right or wrong. They just are. And it’s, whatever is right for you at the different stage of your life and your own personality and your own desires and wants. but I think those are really important questions to ask, and to yourself and to have clear answers before you pick a path. ⁓ otherwise things happen unintentionally by default. And I, again, that’s where I think people get stressed, overwhelmed and burned out is the reasons they started all of a sudden disappeared.

They started because they loved this. And the next thing you know, the only thing they do is file taxes and big paperwork. That’s not what they started. And it’s because they lost sight of, I doing this to grow it and sell it, or am I doing it because I love it and it’s a lifestyle? Do I want employees, yes or no? Those are ⁓ simple but not easy questions to ask. ⁓ But once you have the answers to those, ⁓ when are you ready to hire someone? Because if you are growing and scaling at some point,

You’re going to come to that place where you cannot do it on your own any longer. I don’t have a perfect answer. can only give you my answer.

Rory (23:31)
I’m curious to hear this because I have a clear answer too. I wonder how much these are aligned.

AJ (23:35)
We’ll see. We’ll see. You guys can rate how closely related were they. Here’s what I have found is the first thing that I have to do is I have to set up my own boundaries, my own parameters of what I’m allowed to say yes and no to. And this has been a lifelong journey to figure those out. Some of those are schedule boundaries. Some of those are people boundaries. Some of those are commitment boundaries. And I’ll give you examples of some of those like

I have a commitment that I need mom time with my boys before 5 p.m., two days a week. Right? So ⁓ I end work earlier on Fridays. I have a shorter Friday, and I get to pick my kids up from school on Tuesday. Those are boundaries and commitments that I have to have to be a healthy, happy CEO, and also to be a mom who does not suffer from guilt. If I don’t have those things, I have an unhappy family and I have an unhappy workforce. Neither are good.

Right? And I think the first thing is like a healthy leader makes a healthy team. An unhealthy leader makes an unhealthy team. Same goes for parenting. An unhealthy parent makes an unhealthy family. ⁓ So I just know on the weeks where I don’t get to do those things, I’m a torn individual. And it’s like, well, I can’t do anything good. And it’s because I didn’t stick to my boundaries and my commitments. In order for me to be present at work, I need time with my kids. For me to be present with my kids, I need time at work. I’m not trying to overlap the two.

So firm set boundaries, would be one clear example. Another clear example is I can’t be in eight hours of calls and meetings and the team expect me to do my job. I can’t, so I put boundaries on I’m allowed this many hours of calls and meetings per day. If it exceeds that, it has to be pushed.

Rory (25:16)
Is that different every day or is it the same number?

AJ (25:18)
I have different every day, depends on the day of the week. But I will tell you right now, some people get very annoyed of like, you’re telling me you can’t schedule a call with me for five weeks. And the answer is no, I could schedule a call with you before then, but that would be sacrificing the commitments and the boundaries that I’ve set for myself, my family and my team. So I could, but I’m not. That means you have to get really comfortable and really good at how to say no.

And that has been an art in and of itself of learning the art of saying no. Because a lot of us, that’s a real struggle and we squeeze it in. But then all we’re doing is we’re breaking our promises that we’ve already made to ourself, to our team, and to our family.

Rory (25:58)
mean, you’re always saying no. You’re either saying no to that person or you’re saying no to the commitments you made to somebody else. So it’s like, you can’t go through life not saying no. It’s just, what are you saying no to?

AJ (26:08)
As an individual,

I’m just talking to entrepreneurs, you have to set your boundaries. What are the commitments that you’re gonna make? For me, I start with what are my commitments to the Lord? What are the commitments to my family? What are the commitments to the team? That’s the order that I go, and I fit in with family. I have to work out. If I don’t have physical exertion three or four times a week, I’m a crazy person. I have chaos energy. I told Roy the other day, was like, I’m shadow from Sonic 3. If I do not,

have physical exertion three or four times a week. I am just like shadow running around that orb at the very end creating chaos. ⁓ I have to release it. It is for the health of everyone around me that that gets out at hot yoga, not on a phone call, right? So those are the things you have to know about yourself. And you have to put those self-care things in there for us. Like if I don’t do my Bible study in the morning, I’m a grouch. I need my time with the Lord to have a peaceful start to my day.

Those are the boundaries and commitments that it’s like, if I don’t do that, everyone else suffers in the wake of my uncommitment. That is the first and foremost. Set your commitments and your boundaries of like, what makes you a healthy, happy leader? That has to happen first. And so if it doesn’t build in the boundaries of those, then I know there’s too much work for me to do. And it’s like, it is a basic law of economic supply and demand.

When there is more demand on my time than I have supply, then I start looking at, ⁓ you know, I follow Rory’s focus funnel. Like I do. It’s like, okay, what needs to be eliminated? What needs to be delegated? What needs to be automated? What needs to just be procrastinated on or what needs my attention right now? I follow the focus funnel. Like I really do. And it’s like, when I realize can’t be eliminated, it has to be done and it has to be by me.

I’m going, I’m looking at the team around me and I’m going, who is this going to? Right? And if there is no one, I’m going, I’m going to start making a job description because someone has to do this. It can’t be me. But it really is, but it does start. And I think that’s the most important thing of going, don’t break your commitments to yourself.

Rory (28:11)
And that would be that’s would be my answer in terms of when do you hire someone? It is when there is work that must be done that you don’t have time to do it. That’s when you start making the job description. But here’s what most people do. Most people say I’ll hire someone when I can afford to hire them. And that’s it’s it’s never worked that way. It’s never been like

We’ve got extra money lying around, let’s go hire the person. You think, like everyone when they’re starting as an entrepreneur, they all think, ⁓ that person has a big team because they have a lot of money. And it’s the opposite. They have a lot of money because they have a team and they invest in the team and eventually the money comes. But in the beginning,

All you’re doing is shelling out money to people on your team. And that’s what’s scary. And that’s where the risk.

AJ (29:06)
And that is where the risk comes. I think that’s where being a healthy financial fiduciary of your business is a part of your job as founder, entrepreneur, CEO, whatever your role is. I think everyone has responsibility of being a financial fiduciary if you work for a company because if you’re not and other people aren’t, everyone’s job is at risk. Like it doesn’t matter what your role is in the company, your job is to be a financial fiduciary of that company because that’s how you get paid.

Right? Is the, you know, the success of the company. But like to that point, I think a lot of businesses fail ultimately because they just ran out of runway. They ran out of money. And so knowing when to spend the money, knowing when to hire is really important. And what we have always found, it’s like, as long as my time is freed up, I know I can produce more revenue. Right? I know that. I don’t always know if I, if I free up somebody else’s time, can they produce more revenue?

I don’t always know that, but I know if I can free up my time, more revenue is on the way. And I think that’s again, that’s a mentality that we have chosen as business owners of, you know, we’re always going, how do we help generate revenue? That isn’t an outsourced skill set. It doesn’t mean people don’t help us. They most certainly do. But at the end of the day, our job is to make sure the company has enough financial runway to continue to be in business. That’s responsibility you own as an entrepreneur.

Rory (30:28)
That’s a big mindset shift. I, know, generally when I think of like my favorite like productivity books, I genuinely would put Procrastinating Purpose as one of them. Another one that I would put on there is ⁓ Dan Martel’s book, Right? Buy Back Your Time. And one of the distinctions he makes so sharply in that book that I really agree with and seeing it in writing was like definitely, is he says, hire to take things off your plate.

Right? Don’t just hire like, I think we need a VP of marketing. It’s like, no, what you need is to hire someone to free up your time. So whatever is taking your personal time, that’s where you need to you need to hire.

AJ (31:09)
how every job description should start and then it just continually scales from there. It’s like as one thing gets off your plate and new things come on your plate, eventually those fall off your plate and that’s a new job. And then that process continues on and on and on and on and that’s eventually how a team. ⁓

Rory (31:25)
great example

of this last year was we hired a head of people. Yeah. And I like, do we is that a position that we need? And you were like, talking to me, you’re like, you have no idea how much time I’m spending on benefits and HR and internal meetings and agendas and planning our conferences and travel and KPIs. And I was like, Okay, wow, I did not realize that ⁓ is going, ⁓ I guess we do. So from my vantage point, it felt like

we were too young as a company to need that position. But from your vantage point, you’re like, I am buried in a list of stuff. And it was like, okay, let’s go like we got to go get the person and we got we got someone who’s awesome. And yeah, so that’s so that’s really good. What rapid fire round here real quick, and then we’ll get into community questions. We got a big community question. So what do you think are the mistakes that entrepreneurs make when they’re trying to scale?

What are like the biggest things that they mess up?

AJ (32:22)
that they try to scale. Yeah, like genuinely. And it’s not only not knowing why, it’s that they try to scale before they’re ready. I think that happens a lot. We want to get bigger before we have the right systems in place to support that. One of the biggest mistakes that I have just read about, seen, luckily never firsthand, but is, you know, the rise and fall of tech companies.

Rory (32:23)
without knowing why.

AJ (32:47)
And there’s lots of documentaries. But I find these really fascinating of they scaled before they had systems to support the scale. And if the infrastructure isn’t there, the growth will implode the company. let’s not forget that. It’s like it can be an exciting ride. And then one day, it all comes crashing down.

Rory (32:55)
Hmm.

One of the most impactful things that has happened to me over the last year was the story that you found for our book about Chick-fil-A. that with Truett Cathy, don’t know what chapter is that in our book, chapter seven or something. ⁓ By the way, you can go to freebrandaudiobook.com slash podcast and just download the book. But if you go to that chapter, I think it is monetization strategy where we talk about scale is the lesson where Truett said, if we focus on getting better,

AJ (33:18)
three week.

Rory (33:38)
our audience will demand that we get bigger. And that was like a really clarifying moment for me was to go, don’t focus on getting bigger, focus on getting better. And if you focus on get better, you’ll get bigger. And I think that sums up the difference between our two entrepreneurial journeys, our first company and second company in some ways. We’ve been really focused on getting better, better, better at Brand Builders Group and we’re getting bigger as a result of that.

AJ (34:06)
And I think that’s true for any business owner, any entrepreneur. It’s don’t outgrow your systems. Don’t outgrow your systems. You cannot scale without the necessary infrastructure in place to support it. And when you don’t have it there is when it becomes toxic and unhealthy. And ⁓ it all really does start to fall apart, starting with you, because now you’re working double time over time.

even with the support team, because you just didn’t have the infrastructure to support the amount of clients or team members that you brought on. We talk about this often at Brand Builders Group and we go, I don’t know why so many of us are talking about, you know, growing our social media audiences or all the things that we’re doing when most people, most people only need a few dozen extra clients, not thousands, not hundreds, just a couple of dozen. Most people, if they doubled their client load, they couldn’t even handle it.

Rory (34:53)
Mm.

AJ (35:00)
And yet we’re trying to figure out how to do all these magnificent things. And it’s like, just pick up the phone and call somebody, ask for referrals. And I think a lot of that is we forget there’s not a lot you need to actually have some healthy growth and healthy scale. You don’t have to double, triple, quadruple your business in order to experience monumental growth for a lot of us. ⁓ But I do think it’s really important. It’s like serving five clients is very different than serving 25 clients.

Serving 50 is different than serving 25, 100. And it’s like, you have to be able to support that infrastructure before the clients come, otherwise it implodes. And I think that’s why how to scale is the wrong question. Not just because you don’t know why, which you do need to know, is that you’re trying to scale at all in order, you’ve got to have the order correct and the proper systems, processes and people have to be in place before you actually start to scale.

Rory (35:55)
Okay, next question. How do you determine what to pay people when you’re hiring, especially when you’re starting out and you really don’t have a lot of revenue or money? Like, what is some of the compensation philosophy of like, how do you afford people before you can really afford them? And then like, how do you adjust that over time or give us a little bit about that?

AJ (36:13)
This is a whole episode. my gosh. What a what Pandora’s box.

Rory (36:17)
Let’s do it. Let’s do an episode. We’ll do a whole episode on this.

AJ (36:21)
I think we should do a whole, because I think that’s Pandora’s box. I think there’s so it’s that you can’t even answer that question properly. It’s like, is this a brand new position? ⁓ Or is this a position that already exists in the company? Right? Those are two very different plans. Are you a startup company? Are you established? Right? Is this person learning a new job? Are they coming with expertise and experience? Right? Are you hiring virtual? Or is it mandated to be in person? Do you have benefits or not?

Is there a bonus or a commission plan or not? This is an entire episode. here’s what I would say at a very high level. Often when you’re starting, you’re going to probably not pay someone exactly what they’re worth and they’re going to be coming on because they believe in the mission, they believe in the potential and that there’s an upside. So I would say a lot of people get hired on, at least this is how we’ve done it, is like there’s a lower base.

and there’s a higher pay for performance opportunity, whether it’s a bonus, a KPI bonus or a commission plan that allows you to hire someone with what you can’t afford in a base, but it gives them the potential to make more income by selling or delivering or performance of the company when you can’t afford the base that this person could have earned somewhere else, but you’re hiring someone, not just because of money. And I think that’s probably my big takeaway. It’s like,

If people only come to you because of the dollars on the page, they’ll leave you just as fast. It has to be more about the paycheck. has to be, I going to enjoy the work who I’m enjoying with? Is there certain freedoms? Like, can I work from home? Can I travel? Can I earn more? Is there bonus potential? Is there benefits? It has to be more about money. It can’t just be about the dollars on a page because they will leave you just as fast as they came.

On that note, that’ll be a good healthy transition to move into one of our favorite segments of the show, which is when we do a question from our community where we take a whole bunch of questions posed from our community. They pick which is their favorite one. And that question makes it to you here on the show. So today’s question is, how do I say no without burning a bridge?

Rory (38:35)
This is so good. Really important and relevant. I’ve struggled with saying no for a big, big part of my life. I always wanted to say yes. And it was really once we started building our family that was like, have to start saying no to some things. And it was a really big struggle with me. And here’s the game that I learned how to play that I think made a big difference for me personally, was I make a game of saying no.

and still being super duper nice. And that epiphany for me was to go I can say no and be nice. ⁓ We did a blog on this. I think I did a blog on my blog about this a while ago. I haven’t looked at it but it’s we made an acronym out of nice and I see I think the end is notice the person’s value. Right. So someone asked you to coffee and you’re like that’s so kind. I love what you’re doing. It’s ⁓ you know and then the I is indicate interest.

It’s like, man, if I had all the time in the world, I would love to come and sit down with you and learn more about what you’re doing, because it’s really, really important. And then the C is competing priorities. But that and so you just kind of articulate to them, you go, right now, I’m just in a I’m in a really tight season right now with my family, my business, we’re moving houses, we’re writing a book, right. And it’s just so it’s like, man, if I had all the time in the world, I would do this, I just have really competing priorities.

And then you kind of explain clearly that you’re not going to be able to do it. But you offer offer them alternatives. Yeah. And so you go, you know, I can’t meet with you in person. Here’s a podcast episode that I picked out that I think would be super helpful. Here’s an article I found. Here’s a book I would recommend. Here’s someone I, you know, I think you should follow or, you know, here’s a quick bit of advice and encouragement. So that’s what this the E is, is encouragement. So you kind of encourage them.

in their journey. that’s just sort of the game. And you just have to do this. And it does kill me. It’s like I get invites to like come speak at things or meet with people. And it’s like if time like in eternity, like when eternity comes around, it’s like, yeah, I love that. You know, I’m so flattered. But if I’m saying yes to them, I’m saying no to you. I’m saying no to the. That’s the short answer.

AJ (40:50)
You just tell them my wife said no.

I think that’s really good. it’s like, mine is similar. It’s like, I don’t have a fancy acronym like you do. ⁓ My very succinct kind of like what I heard you say and what my philosophy is always focus on what you can do, not what you can’t do. It’s very simple. it’s like, doesn’t matter what the request is. I try to focus on what I can do, not what I can’t do.

Rory (41:09)
Mmm.

AJ (41:17)
So I always lead with what I can do while also making it clear what I can’t do. But I lead with what I can do. ⁓ Like I’ll give you ⁓ one quick snippet. Like here recently I got asked to do a book endorsement. And it’s someone who I really love. And I really love the book. And it was right after our book launch in the middle of our budget season in the middle of ⁓ moving a house. And it’s like they had a very short turnaround, 60 days. And I just, won’t write an endorsement if I can’t read the book.

Right. And I was like, ⁓ I want to say yes to this. And I can’t. I cannot. Like that is an overcommitment of epic proportion. And so when I got asked, I responded with, hey, what I would love to do is to do a live story promoting your book on launch week. I do not have capacity or time because of all these reasons to do a quality endorsement. However, I can put time on my calendar right now for your launch week.

I would love to go live and promote your book for you. And I did. And I did go live on their launch week and did a huge endorsement and got live and did a whole thing about their book launch. But I could not do the endorsement. I couldn’t do it. And so it’s just focusing on what you can do while also being really clear on what you can’t do. But lead with what you can, not what you can’t.

Rory (42:33)
So good. Well, there you have it, friends. Hopefully some advice, encouragement, insights, most of all, just lessons and experience shares from us struggling through this. As AJ mentioned, we did not have this figured out. ⁓ We have come a long way from where we’ve started and we’ve made some improvements from mistakes. So we hope it’s an encouragement to you. If there’s somebody that you think of when you’re listening to this episode who’s struggling with some of this, please feel free to share this. We would love for you to just find one person

that you send this episode to and keep coming back here so that we can keep you encouraged on your journey. We’re so grateful for you. We’ll catch you next time on Wealthy and Well-Known.

Ep WWK 006: You Are Your Niche: How to Turn Life Lessons into Leads

AJ: [00:00:00] How many new people and how many of the same people do you come in contact with on a regular recurring basis that you’ve never introduced yourself to?

Rory: And when you say introduce yourself, part of how you would introduce yourself is to tell your story.

AJ: If my story makes sense to everyone, but sells to no one, how niche should I really be in order to convert? Welcome to the Wealthy and Well-Known podcast, where we teach you how to build a true personal brand to help you scale your impact, your income, and your reputation. Today I am joined by my co-host and husband, Roy Vaden, and we’re going to be talking about the power of niche [00:01:00] storytelling, but the question is how niche, right back to the opening.

It’s like if it makes sense but it doesn’t convert, then how niche should we really be? So that’s my first question to you, Rory, is how niche should we niche down?

Rory: Yes. Okay. So those to me are different questions, which is like, what story should I tell to convert versus how niche should I niche down? But I think.
Where we should start the conversation is what is with the statement that is printed right on the front cover of our book. If you take off the flap, and if you’ve never seen this, it’s a, it’s an Easter egg. You gotta take off the flap, the jacket of the book, and right on the front cover it says, you are most powerfully positioned to serve the person you once were.

And to me, that is where this conversation starts because what I’ve become. More convicted on as time goes on is [00:02:00] that your story defines your niche. You don’t choose a niche and then try to figure out what story to tell. That’s good. You tell your story and your story defines your niche. And so I think lots of people have that switch
AJ: backwards.

Yeah.
Rory: And flip. They’re trying to go, what’s the perfect niche? Who’s my niche? And then like, okay, what are the stories I can tell to sell them? And go, no, it’s the opposite. You figure out what is your story, and your story will reveal. Your niche. So that’s where I start the conversation, but that really

AJ: defining your niche as your audience.

Like that’s the person.

Rory: Yes. Yes. I mean, again, another thing we say in the Wealthy Well-known book, you don’t start with why. You start with who, right? The moment you become clear on who you’re trying to serve, every other downstream decision becomes clear. Where should I advertise? What should I say? What should I sell?

How much should it cost? Like all, all of the [00:03:00] things become clear. When you’re clear on who. And so then you go, okay, well then who is my who? Well, I’m most powerfully positioned to serve the person I once was. So I think. When we think about,

AJ: let’s pause right there, because I think for, for us, that’s a really common idea, concept theme, right?

We’ve been working on that the last seven years. We know very intimately what that means, but for someone who’s listening who’s like, serve the person, I once was like, what does that mean? How do you determine the person you once were? So I think it would be like, if we’re saying, Hey. This whole idea of niche down is really about a who?

It’s about an audience. I think it would be worthwhile to go. How do you determine who you once were? Like how do you define that?

Rory: Yes. So a great a, if you want to tell a story that sells. You have to tell a story about someone overcoming a problem and achieving a result, [00:04:00] right? That’s what a story is. It’s somebody wants a result, they’re blocked by something, and the story is the description of their journey passed those obstacles to achieve that result.

That’s what storytelling is. It’s that it’s that simple. So. If you want to tell any story that sells, it’s gotta be what Obstacle did. Did. The person overcome. What challenge did they conquer? What setback did they survive? What problem did they push past? Right? That is the story as we teach in our world class presentation, craft curriculum.

The story is the struggle. The struggle is the story. The story is not about where they start. It’s not about where they end up. It is the journey, the the two steps forward and one step back. So. Anytime we’re talking about storytelling and selling in the same conversation, we have to be [00:05:00] clarifying what problem is being solved.

Mm-hmm. So to figure out who am I most powerfully positioned to serve? If we’re telling your story, then the conversation is, what challenges have you conquered? What obstacles have you overcome? What tragedies have you triumphed over? What setbacks have you survived?

AJ: Sounds like you’ve said this before,

Rory: I’ve said it before a lot, and I will, and, and, and every time I talk about it, I get a little sharper, I think, a little clearer on exactly what we mean.

I think there’s a lot of people who are like, yeah, if you wanna sell more, tell stories, but they don’t teach you how, how, what? Mm-hmm. What is a good story? What does what, what does that mean to tell a story? And I think we’re going, okay, your story is about what problems is you’ll come. Yeah.

AJ: I think that one of the things that’s really important, and you know, some of this to help everyone kind of articulate, is like if as you go through your own journey listening to this conversation today is, uh, the who [00:06:00] really does emerge out of.

What are the obstacles you’ve overcome? Right? What are the lessons that you’ve learned? Um, what are, you know, all the setbacks that you’ve made it through. And I think that what’s important is to go, okay, well, you gotta kind of go back and it’s like, and decide is, is your audience a person that you were a year ago, five years ago, 10 years ago, or 20 years ago?

Because there’s an evolution of serve the person you once were. Right. Was it the person I was when I was single, or is it the person was when I felt invisible or, so how do you discern that? Like, because all of us kind of have a history of past versions of ourselves.

Rory: Yes. So

AJ: this would be a great question that we’ve really never, we’ve never talked about about it.

I’ve never asked this about it. Yes. Yeah. Because you’ve been a series of different people over the course of your life. How do you know which one?

Rory: So for the context of this conversation, I think we’re talking about what problem Yeah. Are they paying us to solve? So when [00:07:00] you talk about storytelling and selling, it becomes very clear what stories you should tell because they’re the stories related to the things you’re selling.

Mm-hmm. Right? So in our case at Brand Builders Group, it’s like people aren’t. Paying us for me to tell them the story of how I lost 45 pounds, even though that’s a, that’s a journey that I’ve been on. Mm-hmm. Right. That’s not why people are paying us. I could tell that story anecdotally here and there to, to create connection or y you know, as a part of a presentation, but that’s not the story.

That’s not the person that I’m serving. Mm-hmm. ’cause that’s not our business. So I think there’s a difference in understanding. Yeah. Our whole life is a series of stories. Um, which stories sell though are the ones that are connected to what you offer, right? So if I’m a financial advisor, I need to be telling stories by, and by the way, these aren’t just of yourself, these are also of your clients, right?

Is to go, what were the struggles I had as money? What were the limiting beliefs that I had as money? What [00:08:00] were the mistakes that I made around money? What did I try to do that did not work? Why didn’t that work? Then? What did I finally do that did work? And then what was the result that happened for me in my life and or my clients?

So for us at Brand Builders Group, it’s the stories about me wanting to be a speaker and me wanting to become an author and us becoming entrepreneurs and us learning how to sell, and us learning how to lead because people are hiring us. To help them achieve those specific dreams. So

AJ: I think there’s something in this conversation that I think is very important to pause and to pull out.

’cause when we’re talking about niche down and we’re saying, Hey, we’re niching down on a person, I would like to change that word for the rest of today’s episode.

n/a: Mm.

AJ: We’re niching down on a buyer. This is one buyer. It’s not one person, it’s one buyer. Because when you think about niching down and how do you actually tell a story that converts in a crowded market, right?

This isn’t [00:09:00] about right to what you said. It’s like, well, I was someone who was overweight and I overcame that. Right? But that has nothing to do with what you’re selling and what they’re buying. So this is really about how do you niche down to a single buyer.

n/a: Mm-hmm.

AJ: Which means that you’ve gotta be clear on your product, your business model.

The person which makes the buyer.

Rory: Absolutely. And so I think

AJ: that’s an important distinction of what we’re talking about today, is how do you tell stories that actually stand out in a crowded market? But this is a marketplace conversation of how do you tell stories that convert by niching down on a specific buyer, not just a person.

Rory: Yes. That’s great. And I think if people feel like if, if someone is listening to this and they’re saying, I’ve been telling stories and they’re not converting. Then I would say there’s really kind of only one of two things. One is you’re, you’re not telling the story effectively, right? You don’t have the elements of story in place, which we could talk about, but more often it might be because you’re [00:10:00] selling something you shouldn’t be selling.

You’re trying to sell something that you have no personal connection to, you have no inherent passion about because you are talking about a journey that you’ve never been on. You’ve never guided somebody on, and that’s gonna be hard to tell a story. It’s hard to tell a story that you haven’t lived.

AJ: Well, could you also though be telling the right story, but to the wrong audience?

Rory: Sure. Yeah. Right. Possible. But I think that’s,

AJ: I mean, I think that’s a part of it too. It’s like when a story lands, then you know it was the right story at the right time with the right people. But often if the story isn’t landing, I don’t think it’s necessarily always the fact that you didn’t live the story.

It’s like, are you just telling the right story to the wrong audience?

Rory: Sure. I think that’s possible. I, I think what’s I, what’s interesting about the, the world of social media that we live in is it’s almost like I, I almost don’t have to think about [00:11:00] the audience necessarily. I just need to tell the truest version of my story in a way that illustrates what problem I overcome because the algorithm goes and it finds the people for that story, right?

Like, if, if you do it right, this is what we’re saying. It’s like you start with the story, your story becomes your niche, because at least in a, in a social media context, right? Um. YouTube Instagram.

AJ: Yeah. But what we gotta talk about offline too, and that doesn’t necessarily hit, those are D hit those different, those are different.

The same. Yeah. What you’re saying is

Rory: really true for offline, right? It’s like if I’m in front of a group of nurses talking about how I overcame, you know, my fear of public speaking to, and here’s how to become speaking, it’s like that’s not gonna convert.

AJ: But it’s like you could even be a financial advisor talking about.

You know, your path to wealth building or retirement or whatever. But if you’re talking to a whole bunch of retirees who are in their late eighties, story’s not gonna hit, it’s not gonna land. [00:12:00] Right. They you, you’re not reaching the right audience.

Rory: Yeah.

AJ: So I think that’s a, it’s both making sure it’s the right story or the right

Rory: audience, and maybe that’s a distinction that is unique to the world we’re living in now to the world.

You and I started in business. We were predominantly in front of offline audiences, and so you had to really select the audience, which you still do today for an offline audience in an online world. It’s sort of like. So it’s like in an offline world, you do lead with the niche. Mm-hmm. You target the industries and the audiences that you’re going after.

You ask for referrals to a specific type of person. You advertise to a specific type of person. With content marketing, it’s like you tell your story and the clearer you tell your story, it’s like the audience for that story starts to show up. That’s, that’s kind of interesting.

AJ: Well, I think we could talk about both of those, but.

I still think that today, most of us, most of the people who are listening are still doing the predominant, [00:13:00] predominant amount of their business offline. Sure. Uh, that’s the vast majority of all businesses. Regardless of what the internet tells you, most people still buy and sell based on referral, word of mouth.

Repeat buyers. They’re not going to social media to find their financial advisor. They are asking close, trusted friends and family of other people that they respect and look up to. Who do you use? Who do you recommend? So in that regard, I do think that, you know, kind of to this point of niche storytelling, and before I ask this, it looks like you really wanna say something.

Yeah.

Rory: So, so, so I would, I would underscore that too, but I, I, as you’re talking, it’s occurring to me that. The same algorithm dynamic also occurs offline. Like one of the things you, you, you say, we had another episode where you were talking about share the hard parts of your story. Yeah. Share who you are is, even if you’re not my audience, if I tell our bible study my story, they may not be my [00:14:00] audience.

Then when they meet somebody, yeah. Oh, I met a guy who, who’s writing a book? You need to meet him. Or I met someone who wants to be a, become a coach, or, I met, I met a lawyer who, mm-hmm. Who, who wants to grow a podcast because I’ve told my story to the people You have, like your six foot rule, you should explain what your six foot rule is.

Um, if I tell my story offline. To people who are maybe the wrong audience in terms of they’re not the right buyer, but they’re people I have relationship with, then they become equipped to refer people to me because they know who I’m trying to meet.

AJ: Yeah, I think that’s really good. Um, one of the things I think is interesting ’cause I think like to that it’s like even if you’re telling this.

Offline story about what you do, who you help, how you help them. Right? And that’s a story I just want everyone to be clear. It’s like that’s a story. I think what’s one of the most interesting facts, this is a total side note, tangent mental, um, [00:15:00] squirrel that just happened. But I think it’s worth mentioning is that I meet people all the time, as do all of us, and most people cannot tell you what they do.

Mm-hmm. It’s amazing. It’s like they stumble and I’m like, do you not know what you do? Are you not clear to how articulate it or do you not think I’ll know what you do? Like it’s a very bizarre thing that people cannot tell you what you do,

Rory: stumble, fumble, blah, that. But that

AJ: is a story, right, of you being able to clearly articulate at the right time to the right person in the right moment.

What you do is actually how you get. Business.

Rory: Can you tell everyone what the six foot rule is? Your, your six foot rule?

AJ: Yeah. It’s very, very simple. Not sophisticated, but my six foot rule has to do with offline communication, uh, offline networking, selling, whatever you wanna call it, is that you have to be willing to tell anyone.

You come in contact with IE six feet, right? [00:16:00] Anyone who is within six feet of you, you have to be so convicted in what you do, that if anyone is within six foot of you, you would be willing to tell them what you did and you would be able to clearly communicate what it is. And, uh, some of the examples I give are the value of how many people that you’re in front of on a every week recurring moment, right?

Who you go to church with. The parents you meet when you’re dropping or picking your kids up from school. Uh, the people at the soccer field, people standing in line at Starbucks, right. The people that you are standing in line with, checking into a hotel or checking out the people at the airport, like we are constantly surrounded by other people that we do not talk to, right?

One of my favorite things to do right now is to just watch people at the airport. Every single person. No, shouldn’t say every single person. You’re a people watcher. You’re a people

Rory: watcher.

AJ: Totally, totally. People watching. Um, but what’s amazing to me, [00:17:00] and again, I can’t say everyone ’cause that’s not fair, but most people have their heads down looking at their phone.

You’re sitting next to

Rory: potentially

AJ: your next customer. You’re standing behind your best prospect. Uh, you’re getting your nails done next to your new best friend. It’s like you’re sitting, uh, you know. Next to the person at church who could change your life.

Rory: Humans, there’s humans everywhere. There’s, there’s humans

AJ: everywhere.

Uh, and it’s like we overlook the quantity and the quality of people who are right at our disposal. They are within arm’s reach. That’s why I say six feet. It is within an arm’s reach and we’re ignoring them. Just pause and think about that for a moment. How many new people and how many of the same people do you come in contact with on a regular recurring basis that you’ve never introduced yourself to?

Rory: And when you say introduce yourself, part of how you would introduce [00:18:00] yourself is to tell your story. A succinct key is, part of that is succinct way to illustrate why you do what you do. How you do what you do by simply telling how you got into doing what you do. Yeah. And that is like your. The fastest way to your next customer is through real life humans.

And there’s real, they’re there. There’s humans everywhere. They’re

AJ: everywhere. There’s what, 7 billion of us right there. We’re everywhere. Um, we just have to be willing to engage. We have to be willing to interact. We have to be willing to put our phones in our pocket, put it on airplane mode, put it away, make eye contact and introduce yourself.

And there’s a lot of power to that. You just never know. Like I was at, uh, a quick personal story. Uh, I was at a, uh, dinner party at some friends with you. You were there and I was, you know, I’m not a great networker. Side note, I’m awkward. I’m like, if I know one person in [00:19:00] the room, I’m a stage five clinger, I’m just gonna follow that person around and eat snacks.

That’s what I do. But I got separated from Rory, so I was on my own. I’m like, wait, I’m, I’m just like looking for him survival mode. I was in survival mode. I’m like, where’s the bathroom for the third time? What was interesting is like it was such a tight, it was such a tight situation. ’cause there was a lot of us, uh, at this dinner house, this dinner party, and there was a guest of honor.

And it was Francis Chan and I happened to follow Francis Chan and I really love his teachings and I think he’s an amazing human being. And I saw him earlier in the night and like kind of avoided eye contact and moved on and I got, I’m an awkward networker, but then I got stuck shimming my way in between him and another person and he made eye contact and I’m like, six foot rule.

I, it’s my own rule. I have to do it. So I paused and I suck, put my hand out and I introduced myself and uh, and he was like, so aj tell me what do you do? And I was like, here’s my chance. Right? And it’s like, but it was amazing. And I [00:20:00] was like, I, well I actually, I help entrepreneurs build and grow their personal brands.

And he goes, personal brands, like, what do you mean? And then I like went on and, ’cause I know he’s a speaker and author and do all the things. And he goes, so you help people like me. I was like, I help people exactly like you. In fact, I, we’ve probably worked with some of the people, you know, and I made a list of clients and he goes, what would you do for them?

Right? And it was like, I had the answers. Um, but that’s only because, you know, and you practice. But that’s the beauty, beauty of the six foot rule. It’s like real life, human interactions, having real discussion about what you really love doing. And that is the power of just. Actually knowing your story and being prepared in the moment.

Right. And I think those are the really important parts that we can’t overlook and just talk about the algorithm. Not saying that’s not important, but for most of us, most of us, most of us are still gonna get our next client offline, not by an online conversion. [00:21:00] You

Rory: think we should talk about the elevator pitch formula?

AJ: Absolutely.

Rory: For people. Okay. So if you are someone who stumbles and fumbles to the question, what do you do? And we’ve all been there, right? It’s like, what do you do? Uh, I’m a,

AJ: well, here’s what most people say, um, is they give their title. Yeah. They go, I’m a financial advisor. I’m an attorney, I’m a real estate agent.

I’m a teacher. I, I’m a CPA. It’s like they tell you their title. That tells me nothing. Like I could meet 36 people who all say the exact same thing. That does not differentiate you in a crowded market. It does not, let me tell you right now.

n/a: Mm-hmm. Right?

AJ: What do you do? I’m a content creator. Welcome to the other 7 billion people on Earth.

Right? It’s like that does not differentiate you. Like when you talk about storytelling, it means you do something unique, right? For a specific buyer, right? That’s that niche buyer. Because you’re most well positioned to serve that person. So I just think that’s contextually [00:22:00] important. Um, now you can tell the rest of it.

Rory: Yep. So, so here’s the elevator pitch formula. If you struggle with this, all you have to say, you just, it’s this sentence. I help who to, what I help, who to what? Remember, you don’t start with why. You start with who. So who do you help? What type of people do you help? You start with who. When you talk about the who you serve, you’re sending out a crystal clear signal.

That people pay attention to and they’ll immediately self-select like, oh, I’m your who, or I’m not your who, but I know who your, who is. I know some people who are like the who you serve. And so the who is really key, not your title. Right. I help who and then to what? Or specifically to achieve what And if you were gonna make this a story.

Okay. The way to make it a story would be to say, I help who to [00:23:00] overcome. Something to achieve something else. Now all of a sudden you have a story. Because to have a story, you gotta have character. You gotta have conflict in order to have a a character, that’s your who. And in order to have conflict, you have to have a goal and you have to have a roadblock.

Right. So when you say, I help who to overcome blank, to achieve what? I just told a story.

AJ: Can you give us an example In real life.

Rory: So, uh, I mean, I’ll, I can, I’ll, I’ll start with us and then we can talk about different examples, right? So we now the who that you share, you should customize to whatever audience you’re in front of.

So if I were in front of a room full of speakers, I wouldn’t sell, I wouldn’t say we help entrepreneurs. I

AJ: help speakers, I

Rory: would say I help speakers, we help speakers.

AJ: I knew that answer. Top quiz, I knew that one.

Rory: Same if it was authors. Right? Now, if it’s a more general audience, I might [00:24:00] sell. Say we help entrepreneurs or we might, we help experts.

If it was room full of doctors, I would say we help doctors. Um, assuming that we do right? So. Our general term, and this is to your earlier question about like how niche is niche down, A lot of that language depends on who you’re in front of. Mm-hmm. Right? So we generally say mission-driven messengers.

That’s our general category. If you break that down into a little more specific, there’s, there’s three groups we serve. Experts are at the center, experts, entrepreneurs are in our second ring, and uh, executives are in our third ring. But even inside of experts, right. We would narrow down to go speakers.

Authors, coaches, consultants. Inside of entrepreneurs, we would say doctors, lawyers, accountants, whatever. So you tailor the language a bit, but at the, at the, the bullseye, which is also both the most broad term and the most narrow term is mission-driven messenger. It’s, it, it’s, it, it captures the whole [00:25:00] audience.

So I help who to what

AJ: I, you, you still didn’t give us the whole. Story.

Rory: Oh, to build and monetize their personal brand. Now, I would also tailor the what, right? So if, if it were a general audience, it’s like we help entrepreneurs to build and monetize their personal brand. But if it was authors, I could say, uh, we help aspiring writers to become bestselling authors.

So I’m tailoring this language. We help lawyers to build their personal brand so they can drive more leads for their practice. So it’s the same structural narrative, which is a story, right? Storytelling is a structure, um, and you have to have a who, you have to have something they want and then you have to have something blocking them or to be a full story.

But the elevator pitch formula. The simplest version to just help people get past the stumbling and fumbling is I help who to what

AJ: Now. This is the interactive part of today’s show, and if you’re listening, uh, here is my encouragement to you, knowing that most of us aren’t very good at this. This is where you [00:26:00] should pause.

You should literally pause the episode right now and take five minutes and make your own, right. Like you need to go, who do I serve and what do I do for them? Right? Like, as Rory mentioned, like mine, I said earlier, I help who I most like, who I’m best and most well positioned, er well positioned to serve our entrepreneurs, right?

Like that’s my niche within our company’s niche. I help entrepreneurs build and grow their personal brand. Right? So you should pause for just a minute and go, who do you help? How do you help them? I help who to what? This would be an amazing. Value for you to do right now. This could change the trajectory of your business by simply knowing how to introduce yourself in the right rooms.

Um, so this is an amazing thing that you could do for yourself right now.

Rory: And I would encourage you to answer that question in the comments, like actually type it out. I help who to what? You might get business from the humans interacting on the comments. [00:27:00] Right? But like we have to get comfortable saying that.

I help absolutely. Lead to what. Not your job title. It’s not I Am a Blank. That’s

AJ: right.

Rory: It’s a I help who to what.

AJ: It’s not about you, it’s about who you serve. So it’s not about what you are or what title it’s about who you serve and how you serve them.

Rory: What type of story shortens the sales cycle. You are a great salesperson.

You’ve sold lots of stuff. What do you think are the key elements of stories that. Reduce the time it takes people to make a decision.

AJ: I don’t think my answer would be a story.

Rory: Interesting.

AJ: Yeah. Twist. There’s a twist. A blood twist. There’s a blood twist in the conversation. Uh, I actually think the most powerful thing that shortens the sales cycle is telling people that this sales cycle is going to be short.

Rory: Interesting.

AJ: Uh, I think. In my experience, and this is just me personally, [00:28:00] I have not used storytelling, uh, as a tactic to help shorten the sales cycle at all. What I believe is the most powerful thing that you can do to help shorten the sales cycle is to start every sales conversation and end every sales conversation the exact same way.

And that’s a very simple, uh, what we call, uh, creating a buying atmosphere. It is to start every sales conversation with Hey Rory. Uh, we’re gonna cover a lot of information today and, uh, at the very end, we’re gonna get to a place where I’ve covered everything that we do, and you are going to know if this is a fit for you.

And, and when we get to that point, I’m gonna just simply ask you if you wanna move forward or not. And I just wanna tell you upfront, either way is completely fine with me. I will be completely good with a yes. I’ll be a completely good with a no. I know that we’re not for everyone, and not everyone is for us.

All I ask is that at the very end you give me a clear yes or a clear no. Is that fair? [00:29:00]

Rory: Yeah, absolutely.

AJ: And then I’d have the conversation, ask a bunch of questions. I talk about what we do and at the very end I’ll go, Hey, Rory. Uh, we’re wrapping up the end of our time here, and I know that we discussed this at the very beginning, and as we’re wrapping up here, I just wanna go back to what we said at the very beginning.

What I know about our business is that at this point you should know if this is a fit for you. And so we’re there.

Rory: So if you don’t know, then it’s not a fit.

AJ: And if you don’t know, it’s not a fit. Like that has been the fastest thing that shortens the sales cycle, is giving people permission to tell you no.

Um, what I have found is that most people are conflict avoidant. They don’t want to tell you no, we don’t like to hear no. As people. And most people don’t like to tell you no because they know that they don’t like to be told no, so they don’t, you know what they say instead, maybe. Let me think about it.

Send me information. Let me talk to my spouse or my partner. Uh, let me sit on [00:30:00] this. Uh, you know, let’s schedule a follow up. No, I don’t wanna do any of that. Uh, if this is for you, it is for you. And if it’s not, it’s not. Your yes is B yes. Let your nos be No, I’m good either way. And, but that’s, that’s the key though.

You have to be good either way. It has to be light and pressure free. And if somebody genuinely has to go check off on something, that’s fine. But how do you know if it’s a genuine, you have a very short follow-up turnaround that they are willing to book and schedule with you in the moment, right? If they’re like, you know what, let’s just uh, follow up with me in a few weeks.

Nope, this isn’t for you. And I know because you, you don’t know. Right? And I think that’s a lot of having the confidence and conviction of you’re not for everyone, you’re not supposed to be, and you don’t wanna work with a whole bunch of people who don’t wanna work with you. So be specific and be clear on who you wanna work with and make it easy to say yes.

By making it easy to say no, the easier you make it to say no, the easier it [00:31:00] is for someone to say yes. In my experience, in my last 22 years of selling, that has been the number one thing that shortens a sales cycle.

Rory: Interesting. Yeah, that’s a great one. There’s no, there’s, there’s no doubt that that shortens the sales cycle.

And it is one of the things that I think people are so scared to do and the one of the keys I think was. You have to say that upfront at the top of the conversation. Yep. And then you call it back. Yep. If you bring it up at the end, it starts to feel like pressure. It’s, if you bring it up at the beginning, there’s no pressure because you’ve taken the pressure off through the whole Well, do you,

AJ: I think really what you’re doing is you’re letting people know, like you should know, like you’ll know like, oh yes, that’s what I’ve been looking for.

And if at the end you’re like, I don’t know, then rather you didn’t do a good job of asking questions or they’re genuinely not a fit. Don’t sell to people who are not a fit for what you do. That’s a disaster for both of you, because in three months they’re gonna have buyer’s remorse. Or in three days, right?

In [00:32:00] some cases, but also you’re also stuck serving a customer that you don’t wanna be serving, and they don’t want your, they don’t want your services. It’s not good. So don’t do that.

Rory: Yes. Coming back to answer my own question, um, yes.

AJ: Tell us the answer to your question. Well,

Rory: so no, I, I, that’s a great answer.

I mean, I, I think that is definitely one of the things that will speed up a sale for sure, in terms of what type of story will speed up a sale in, in my experience, it’s a story about one of your customers succeeding. I think what you said speeds up a sale. The other thing that speeds up a sale like magic is.

When they know or can relate with someone else who’s bot,

AJ: why didn’t you just tell me the answer? I could have said that. Well,

Rory: I know you could’ve there, there, but that was a really, really good answer. Just tell me the answer. That was a really good and true answer and that’s an answer that, that’s like a bonus answer that, uh, I think is super technical.

Yeah, but

AJ: I like another [00:33:00] way of saying what you’re saying is, is customer testimonials, case studies. That’s right. Yeah.

Rory: Customer. And that was, you know, there, there is. There is something magical in selling. The only thing that I have ever found in selling that is magic, that will speed things up, make people interested, who weren’t interested, go from slamming the door in your face to I’m Your best friend, is names of people that you’ve worked with.

Mm-hmm. It’s the, it’s the, it’s the, it’s the, it is the fairy dust of selling and it’s like you’re like. So when you can tell a result. Now if, if, you know in our world, right? It’s like this is the result we helped Ed Millet create, this is the result we, we helped, you know, John Maxwell create, this is the result we helped Eric Thomas create, or Amy Porterfield or Dr.

Gabrielle line or whatever, right? Um, it works really well, if you can tell. The story of a result you helped a client [00:34:00] create. Mm-hmm. And particularly if they know the person. Mm-hmm. If they recognize the person, that’s magic. Now, certain industries you can’t share names like, and financial,

AJ: it doesn’t recognize, could be just another doctor.

Another doctor. This was another, you know, more specifically another school that we work with, another doctor in your particular field. It doesn’t have to be an exact person’s name, it could be just someone. Again, this is all about. Having a relatability factor of like, can you really do for me what you do for other people?

And it’s this, I have helped people exactly like you. Yes. In your field, in your profession.

Rory: The more specific, the more terrific.

AJ: Yep.

Rory: Right. If they recognize the person’s name, that’s the most powerful. If they don’t, it just, you zoom at a level, it’s a person like you. Right. And that goes back to our elevator pitch formula.

You tailor it as narrow as you can without, you know, so that you, you, they, you want them to self-select in.

AJ: Most think it’s more powerful that the person is more like them, not just a name they recognize personally. I think sometimes if you share names that they [00:35:00] recognize and they’re like, wow, they’re so further ahead than me.

Then they start doing a comparison game. They can. They can, yeah. And they cannot relate. They’re like, wow, you really, you can’t help someone like me,

Rory: right. I’m too beginner. I’m not like that person. Or I’m

AJ: too advanced. Right. Or whatever it is. Or advanced. Yeah. So I actually think it’s most powerful to go.

Who are the clients that I have that fit your exact profile? Because at the end of the day, the point of doing this is to help them know that you can help them. And so the best way you can do that is to give the stories of people who are as close to them as humanly possible because they’re just looking for social proof of, can you do for me what you’ve done for someone else who is like me?

Totally. I think that’s almost even more important.

Rory: And here’s our secret storytelling formula that we teach. There’s four elements of a story, a scene, a struggle, a summit, and a lesson, right? And the scene is all the people who, what, when, and where. The struggle is, what do they want, and, and, and what are they struggling with?

Then the, the summit is what [00:36:00] happened, and then the lesson is what you learned. When you apply that to selling, you set the scene. I help who, right? I was working with a doctor who was this and this, and this and this. Mm-hmm. They wanted to achieve this summit. They were struggling with these issues. We put them through our process to help them achieve this result.

And that is, that is the result that we create again and again for people who are just like you. Mm-hmm. Right? Scene struggle, summit lesson. And that’s what makes, what makes a great story. You could call it story selling, right? Story selling. The stories of clients that you’ve worked with that are like the person that you’re talking to.

What problem did you help ’em overcome and what result did you help ’em achieve?

AJ: Yeah, so you can tell stories or you can just tell people that they’re gonna know yes or no. Uh, either way,

Rory: if you, if you do both of those things in the same convers conversation, that that will be

AJ: [00:37:00] different strokes for different folks.

They both work. Yep.

Rory: And if you don’t have any cluster testimonials, cluster. Clusters cluster.

AJ: It’s a cluster. It’s a cluster. It’s a cluster of customers. When

Rory: people buy from you that shouldn’t have bought from you. We call those clusters. It’s the wrong people bought. Um, but what, uh, I lost my train of thought.

Cluster is so good. That’s so good. Um, but

AJ: time for our favorite segment.

Rory: Yeah. Onto the community. Question vaden. Okay. So. Here is one of our favorite segments. So every week our brand builders group members, right? So the people who are members in our programs are the people that we help. They vote on the most pressing question that they want for us to break down, and the one with the most up votes becomes our, our featured community question on the podcast.

So let’s dive into the question that our BBG members chose for this episode. Question I serve founders and operators. Can I keep one story for both? Oh, this is [00:38:00] great. This is your people? Mm-hmm. Entrepreneurs. I serve founders and operators. So I’ll clarify. I I’m gonna, I think a founder is someone who started a business.

An operator is basically someone who is running the business on behalf of the founder. Um, can I keep one story for both? All you.

AJ: Yeah. I’m giggling inside because I’m like, most founders I know are still operators.

Rory: Yeah.

AJ: This is the same person. Um, but no, to answer, uh, the question, uh, in the event that you find someone where the founder has stepped out of the day to day and you’re, or sold the business maybe, or sold the business or you know, whatever, they have an operator.

Uh, so here’s what I would say. This really does go back to a conversation that we had. Ha haphazardly at the beginning of this episode, which is. You have to think about your core target audience as you have a bullseye, that’s your primary. Then you have the second ring of the bullseye, which is what we call [00:39:00] your secondary audience.

And then you have the third ring of the bullseye, uh, which is your tertiary audience. Now, the person at the bullseye is that person that you are best and most well positioned to serve, right? The person you’re most powerfully positioned to serve because they are the most like you. Right? So let’s just say founders were your bullseye.

Then you’re naturally gonna have this second ring of operators because that’s the next rung down or after your founder. So it’s not that the story doesn’t apply to both, right. It just applies differently. Right. And I think that’s where we really have to talk about the same story can apply to both with some variations.

And I don’t think you have to change your stories. You don’t change your points. You don’t, you don’t change everything about your personal brand because you’re catching the outer rung. You catch the outer rungs by as a byproduct of being super focused on who’s at the bullseye. And in this case, I’m just selecting the founder.[00:40:00]

The short answer is yes, you can have the same story for both. Uh, you are naturally going to hit that outer ring of people. As Rory mentioned earlier, at our bullseye experts. Then entrepreneurs, then executives, I do not change our stories. I do not change my stories. We do not change our content. To somehow now magically appeal to an entrepreneur or an executive.

We naturally appeal to them by being super clear, super specific, and going after experts. Why and how then do we naturally appeal to those outer rungs? Because those outer rungs are in the process of becoming closer to the bullseye. Right. Uh, they, they have expertise in their field, right? Just because you’re in an ex an executive doesn’t mean you’re not an expert in something.

Uh, just because you’re an expert doesn’t mean you’re not an entrepreneur in something. Uh, so it’s really focusing on what’s at the bullseye. And you naturally catch people as a [00:41:00] byproduct of being really focused without having to change anything that you share or do. You don’t need to change your messaging.

You catch them as a byproduct of being very specific.

Rory: Yeah. That’s so great. So I’m gonna round out my answer, um, to be a little bit more broad, uh, and go, this might perhaps be the, the, the most powerful secret of storytelling that we haven’t yet talked about on this episode.

AJ: Well, what are you waiting for?

Rory: And that is the best way to tell a great story, is to tell a story that is specific to the person you’re talking to. And the best way to know exactly what story to tell is to ask them their story first. This is the hack of all networking. It’s not to have the super perfect elevator pitch. It’s not to talk about all your customers.

It’s not to talk about yourself. It’s not to talk at all. It’s to shut up and ask people, tell me your story. Tell me about your business. Tell me about [00:42:00] what you do. Tell me about who you are. Tell me about your dreams. And as they tell you their story, they’re not only telling you their story. They are telling you exactly what type of story you need to say back to them in order to make a sale.

Yeah. So they’re, they are telling you exactly what they need to hear in order for them to relate to what you do. Mm-hmm. So this is why we say. Truly the greatest salespeople are not smooth talkers. They’re master question askers first.

AJ: Absolutely. So I couldn’t agree with that more. It’s like the sale is made in the power of the questions you ask.

Rory: So good. Um, alright. That’s all we got today for this episode of Wealthy Well Known. Hey, share this episode with someone who you think needs it and someone who has a great story and needs help telling it in a way that will create more conversions. If you haven’t yet, please leave us a rating and a comment, uh, on the [00:43:00] podcast, wherever you listen to it.

That helps people find us and make sure you keep coming back so that we can do our best. To help you become wealthy and well known.

WWK Ep 005: Are You Being Honest—or Just Strategic? Rethinking “Authenticity” Online

Rory: [00:00:00] Every time I hear the word authentic, I throw up a little bit in my mouth. I don’t like the word why. I just, I feel like it’s people pretending not to pretend. Like when they, when, when you, when I think when you show up and say, I’m gonna be more authentic, it’s like. You are going to be less authentic because you’re, you’re consciously thinking about what you’re gonna say.

And to me, it’s like, if I’m consciously trying to curate what I’m saying, then I am not being authentic.

AJ: I’ve asked myself a lot the last few years, like, where did this come from? Have we all been inauthentic for the last 20 years? Like what? Mm-hmm. What happened to create this movement towards be, be more authentic?

Rory: What would happen with your personal brand if you stopped trying to be interesting [00:01:00] and you instead just focused on being honest? Welcome back to the Wealthy and Well-Known podcast where we help you build and monetize your personal brand to grow your influence. Your impact and your income. Today we’re gonna be talking about the power of authenticity with a personal brand.

What are the mistakes people make? What are the right ways to do it, the wrong ways to do it? And as always, I’m joined by my beautiful wife, my best friend, my business partner, and my co-author and co-host AJ Vaden.

AJ: That’s a lot of, that’s a lot of things. You have a lot of titles in my life. I do. I do. But

Rory: you do a lot of, you do a lot of things.

True. Uh, here’s the opening question we got. How do you express. An authentic brand in a way that increases trust and conversions and doesn’t create confusion.

AJ: Yeah. Well I think before we kind of get into that, I think the word authenticity gets thrown around a lot today. A lot. Like a lot. Uh, and I think it’s good to define like, what do we [00:02:00] actually think is authenticity.

Rory: I mean, I will say. Authentically. Every time I hear the word authentic, I throw up a little bit in my mouth. I don’t like the word why. I just, I feel like it’s people pretending not to pretend. Like when they, when, when you, when I think when you show up and say, I’m gonna be more authentic, it’s like. You are going to be less authentic because you’re, you’re consciously thinking about what you’re gonna say.

And to me it’s like, if I’m consciously trying to curate what I’m saying, then I am not being authentic. I guess that’s just how I process it.

AJ: That’s pretty cynical.

Rory: Is it? Yeah. I don’t, I mean, yeah, I guess, I guess I think if, if you’re authentic, you’re allowing yourself to be seen. You’re not trying to curate.

AJ: I, I think maybe even a better place to back up and start is [00:03:00] why has there been this, uh, insurgence, right? This unbelievable amount of content around the importance of being authentic. And I think that’s, I’ve asked myself a lot the last few years, like, where did this come from? Have we all been inauthentic for the last 20 years?

Like what? Mm-hmm. What happened to create this movement towards be, be more authentic? Let’s talk about authenticity. ’cause you’ve got, uh, all these speakers talking about authentic leadership, how to be authentic online. So I think it’s actually a really important thing to talk about. Well. Where did that come from?

Why has that been such a topic of conversation the last few years? And I agree to some of what you’re saying, like, Hey, we hear it so much right now. Now much, you’re just inundated with authenticity. Be authentic. Uh, what does it mean? And at the same token, I, I don’t wanna be cynical in the God. It’s like, well, at some point there [00:04:00] must have been enough of us who are going like, man, I’m, I’m not being me.

I feel like I have to be someone else to be successful, to get promoted to, uh, be seen, or I, I have to show up differently. There has to be enough of that going on in the world. And I’ll just say specifically for the United States where we live, that it has become a topic of conversation. And so I often ask myself like, what?

What was happening culturally or in business or in the home that made us all go, like, why do I feel so inauthentic? What’s happening around us that has made this be a topic? Then I think it’s worthy of us defining for this conversation what we define as authentic. What is authenticity? Then we can answer some of these questions, but if we, if we don’t back it up, then, you know, to your point, it’s like we’re just, uh, adding more fuel to a [00:05:00] conversation that is this really worth talking about?

Is everyone else talking about it or should we back up and go, where did this come from?

Rory: Yeah, I mean, I think the conversation started with people pretending. People feeling like they had to curate how they were showing up both online and offline. I actually have a lot more appreciation for somebody who feels inauthentic in an offline world than an online world.

Um, because I think if someone feels like they’re having to pretend to be someone they’re not in an offline world, that I think is just exhausting and, and sad and painful. That’s where you lose relationships and you lose yourself and you, uh, you know, I think that that really struggles, but I think that’s not, I don’t think that’s as much what people are talking about.

I think, to answer your question, this all began with filters online. It all began when everyone had a video camera in [00:06:00] their pocket and everyone started taking selfies of, of themselves. Uh, we all started taking selfies. Then people were filtering it and using airbrush, and every single person was literally editing the way they looked.

And then the other thing is we were trying to appear successful and appear happy. And so the only things we shared on social media was the highlight reel.

AJ: Hmm.

Rory: That’s where I think it began, or how I think it began.

AJ: That’s interesting. I don’t think that’s accurate at all. It’s just the beautiful thing about two different worldviews having two different, yeah.

Rory: So what I’m curious, genuinely

AJ: social media and the emergence of all things digital simply revealed, magnified, multiplied what was already happening, happening all around us in everyday life.

Rory: Sure.

AJ: I think that’s all it did. I think every single bit of these, uh, [00:07:00] whatever word you use, pretending, um, was already happening.

This just multiplied it. It’s like I think about all the personal or professional encounters, um, that I’m in online, offline, but specifically offline for most of my life. Like, think about like even bible study conversations. It’s like it’s really hard for people to share the hard parts of their life. I think about all the professional, uh, meetings and endeavors and board meetings, and it’s like you very rarely actually know how someone really feels or what’s happening at home, how, how hard their home life is or the, the tragedies that are happening all around them.

You show up and it’s, you know, you leave your problems at the door and you come to work like this and it’s like, there has been that era that, and this tone of, uh, pretend like everything is okay. Right, whatever’s happening at home. Leave it there. You’re at work today. Uh, or, you know, I think about, uh, I, I’ll just use myself as an example.[00:08:00]

It’s like when I got fired from our former company, it took me two full years to say, publicly the words I got fired took me two years. And so I think for a lot of it, it’s like there’s this idea of like, I have to be a certain way. I have to look a certain way to be accepted. To be seen as credible. To be seen as worthy.

And then with the emergence of digital platforms and social media, my goodness, that just amplified everything. And I think that’s also why many of us are struggling with mental health issues offline, is because we were already pretending and now we’re portraying this life that isn’t even ours. And you look online and you don’t even recognize yourself.

You’re so airbrushed, you’re so touched up. Uh, it’s this highlight reel that’s not even close to reality. And then you go, wow, like that’s not even close to my life. And it, it creates surface level relationships. It [00:09:00] creates surface level conversations. And I really do believe that is why the words authentic and authenticity happened viral the last few years is because people started feeling the reality of.

I’ve never really shared myself, and now I don’t even recognize myself. I look at my own feed, I look at my own relationships and I’m like, who is that? Uh, and now I think we have an entire generation of people who are afraid. They’re afraid to actually go back and say all this stuff that you see. None of it was real.

Rory: So here’s, here’s, I think as you’re talking. I agree with all of that. Where I, where I kind of have the like distaste for the word is going, let’s say that’s what I’ve shared online is like this highlight reel and then all of a sudden somebody says, you should be more authentic. And then I deliberately [00:10:00] start sharing like.

I, I, I, I deliberately start talking about topics that are so personal that I would not normally talk about online. I think there is an element of prudence to, to, to certain topics that you talk about online and certain ones that you, that you don’t. And so now all of a sudden you’re like, so, so my issue is not with being authentic, my issue is with.

Pretending to be authentic, to get more views. Pretending like,

AJ: so what’s the difference? What, how do you know if you’re being authentic or being, or pretending to be authentic?

Rory: Yeah. I think only, you know, as a person, but it’s like if I suddenly go, here’s a, here’s a great example, right? I know that people love to hear stories of failure.

I know that, right? We know that those, those, those stories will perform better online. [00:11:00] If there’s a part where I go, I’m gonna come and just tell my failure stories just so I can get more views. That to me is incredibly disingenuous and disingenuine and inauthentic. I think it’s okay, like if you have a story about failure, that’s like a meaningful story and you think about it and it’s weighing on your heart and it’s relevant to the conversation.

I go, let me tell you about the, the, the stupidest mistake I ever made about mis titling my second book. But if I go, okay, let me brainstorm all the times in my life where I failed so that I can make a reel about each one of them so that I can get more views. That is the, uh, like that is the part, and

AJ: that’s the, that’s the cynical part.

I guess I’ve just, I have intentionally put a filter through my own lens of going. I’m sure some people may do that. I’m just choosing to go, that’s not what people are doing it. Even if they are, I don’t [00:12:00] care if it helps somebody else. Like I don’t even care. Like if they’re doing it just for the views, I still believe those stories are gonna reach the right person at the right as long as they’re true.

Right Now, if they were telling untrue stories, well that’s different. And

Rory: it’s, it’s, it’s particularly that it’s an embellished. An embellished version of my failures that I think people, it’s going, I’m going to deliberately tell stories about my failures and weaknesses, and I’m going to embellish them so that people relate to me more.

That’s what I see when, what I feel like when people are like, oh, I’m gonna be authentic online, so now I’m gonna tell like more embellished stories of my negative things, and I’m like, I’m like. You are a successful person. Why don’t you tell people about successful things that you’re doing? Um, I think

AJ: people don’t really want to know all of the successful things, and I think it’s not that you shouldn’t share those, clearly those are [00:13:00] credibility, you know, builders, and that’s helpful.

But I think the, I think the tone has changed because that’s all we’ve been doing. It’s like, look at someone’s bio, look at their introduction. It’s best thing I ever did this award, this title, this accomplishment. Um, I’ve never in my life read a bio on stage or doing an interview like this that did a highlight reel of the worst mistakes you’ve ever made.

Mm-hmm. And I think that we’re trying to counterbalance the only, share the successes, only the victories, only the awards, only the accomplishments, only the highlight. Highlight, highlight. Because I think there’s, there hasn’t been enough of the pendulum swinging the other way, so maybe it swung a little too far and it’ll settle back in the middle.

Uh, I just, I think this is an interesting, I had no idea you felt that way, first of all, about this. This is, uh, an interesting revelation for me over here of going, wow, there’s a little, there’s a little cynicism over there. Uh, but I had no [00:14:00] idea that you felt that way.

Rory: Well, I think I just have. General, a general distaste for anything that someone does that’s disingenuine for the purpose of building their platform.

That’s the part that really triggers me. Okay. And I go, like, if you wouldn’t have coffee with me and tell me about your failures, don’t do it online just because it performs well. That’s the part that drives me nuts. So is, is, is going like. Um, I, I guess, I guess that’s, I guess that’s it, right? I, because then it’s like, just like you were pretending to be successful online, now you’re deliberately pretending to be unsuccessful or like you’re deliberately pretending that you’re struggling.

That’s my, if somebody is really struggling and they want to share it, amen. And, and that’s it. As I think there’s a lot of [00:15:00] people when they say they’re being authentic, they’re actually genuinely being even more inauthentic. They’re deliberately manufacturing feelings of weakness or sadness or failures.

And that to me is what makes me throw up in my mouth, where I’m like, you are pretending to be you. You’re, you’re, you’re, you’re, you’re doing the same thing you were doing before. Curating a highlight reel of perfection, and now you’re curating this like highlight reel of like sadness and mistakes, and that’s where I, that’s the part where I’m like, no.

Now if somebody is genuinely struggling with something in life or they’re wrestling with something, or they’re going through a hard time. I think that would be fascinating to talk about. What do you share and what do you not share, but that I have nothing but compassion and encouragement and hope for

AJ: all right.

We’re just gonna have to settle this dispute and agree to disagree on the topic of, uh, being authentic and authenticity. Uh, [00:16:00] I. Had a podcast guest on our show earlier this year, Jessica’s Wag. And I asked her, ’cause she talks a lot about being authentic and I asked her like, what’s your definition of authenticity?

Because there’s so many variations of it. And hers was the first time where she said it. It hit me of like, oh, that’s so clear. That’s so concise. That makes so much sense. And when, oh, tell

Rory: me I’m, I want to hear this.

AJ: It’s the willingness to be honest.

Rory: Hmm.

AJ: That authenticity is just the willingness to be honest.

And we had a beautiful conversation of like, okay, well when do you be honest? How honest, and it was a great conversation. And I think for me, ever since we had that conversation several months ago, um, my lens has really changed on, oh, that’s what people are talking about, uh, when they, ’cause so many people can’t even really define it.

Rory: Absolutely. And this

AJ: was a really clear [00:17:00] definition that I’ve really latched onto. It’s just the willingness to be honest,

Rory: right? Because that’s where we’re aligned here, where I go if you’re being honest. Amen. That’s awesome. But if you’re deliberately, if you’re saying, oh, I’m being authentic and I’m now deliberately pretending to be sad, pretending to fail, I’m just gonna

AJ: move forward with, that’s dishonest.

People don’t do that. Sure. Probably it happens. I’m choosing to move forward of going, no one who is listening is doing that, so let’s just pretend that no one is doing that. Talk about authenticity of when, how, if they are

Rory: doing that though, you wouldn’t be in favor, you wouldn’t be in favor of that, would you?

AJ: No, no. I, you know, other than I,

Rory: I really appreciate the point you said about like, if it helps someone else, then who, that’s who cares. And I

AJ: think I, I, I hear what you’re saying and I liken it to a great fisherman story, right? A great fisherman [00:18:00] story always has a slightly bigger fish. It’s always a slightly more dramatic catch, right?

And the more often you tell the story, the bigger the fish gets. And yes, I think there’s some embellishing that happens with, and then this and then this. And it was 30 pounds, and the next time you hear the story and it was 40 pounds. Um. There’s a little bit of that that’s like, is it a hundred percent accurate?

No. And a little, a little embellishing is okay for the drama of the story. Um, I’m not saying that it should be false or inaccurate, but I liken every great fisherman story to a little bit of embellishing that draws us in. I think every story, the more it gets told, it gets a little embellished. Yeah. I mean, that’s

Rory: a license to embellish in storytelling.

Yeah, and

AJ: I think for what I, what again, my lens, my choice has been. I’m not even listening, asking myself, is that embellished? Is it a hundred percent accurate? I’m just going, what is in that [00:19:00] story for me? And if they’re not being a hundred percent honest, uh, and it, and it is authentic, I’m not even asking myself those questions.

I’m just going with whatever they have to share. Is there something for me in this story, in this lesson, and personally for me. Right. It’s like what, whatever they choose to share or not share, share or how much is true or not really isn’t for me to decide. Uh, it isn’t for, it isn’t for me to decipher or judge or discern.

I don’t really care. That’s between them. Uh, and God, I’m just going, whatever it is that gets shared, is there something for me in it?

Rory: So I think if you are listening right now or if you’re watching specifically on YouTube. Put in the comments down below. Do you have a, the word authenticity, I just want to hear in the comments if, and just, just go to the comments.

And I wonder if this is like a male female thing, if it’s an age [00:20:00] thing or if it’s just put in the comments or is it just a Rory thing or is it just me? If it with the word authentic, does that make you go? Woohoo. Yes. Be authentic or does that make you go, that is like, make me throw up on my mouth. The word turns me off or something else.

There’s

AJ: a third, there’s a third option. Or does it go, Hey, what does that mean?

Rory: What does the, how do you respond when you hear the word authentic? I am fascinated to know if I am the only person in the world who feels like this, because

AJ: my, my question hasn’t been woo hoo, let’s go, let me tell every dirty secret.

And it hasn’t been, Ugh, that’s terrible. Um, it’s more of like, what does that mean for me? That has my, that has been my constant question at every speaker, every topic, every podcast, everyone I know where that comes up, I’m always like, what? You’re not. Telling me clearly what that means. And it wasn’t until I had that interview with Jessica where I’m like the willingness to be honest.

And that just really deeply resonated.

Rory: And that to me is the light bulb moment is like authenticity makes me [00:21:00] throw up in my mouth honest.

AJ: Stop saying that honesty, you’ve been talking too much to our 8-year-old. Stop saying that

Rory: honesty is, I go, that’s what, that’s what matters. Mm-hmm. And I think the reason I have such a trigger response to it is if I sense that someone is being dishonest.

Even though I can learn from them, and I do, I learn from people and I’m sure there’s people you know who don’t agree with everything I do. Hopefully they can learn stuff. It’s not that I won’t learn from ’em, but it’s that the moment I detect that someone’s being dishonest, it’s like I deliberately am, I am removing them from my life.

Yeah. Like I, I’m on an active path out and, and I think there’s so much dishonesty online.

AJ: Sure.

Rory: Which is where this all came from and offline, which is the irony.

AJ: Welcome to humanity. Totally.

Rory: Totally. You know? Well,

AJ: what I have learned from this conversation is that you have a trigger word, a new trigger word.

That when I wanna irritate you, I now know what to talk about. So that’s great. Um, so let’s talk about, uh, when it comes to the A word, which I’m not gonna say anymore. Uh, [00:22:00] what, what, like, what? What’s appropriate and what’s not. Right. I think that’s a really think good thing to share of like, okay, if you are going like, yeah, I’m not really sharing the hard parts.

And I, to be honest, I think most people refrain from sharing the hard parts. I think most people are a little more comfortable sharing the credibility boosters of their life. Mm-hmm. Than they are the hard moments, which is why I find it. More rare that this is an issue of over embellishing, it’s more of an issue of like, reveal something at all.

Mm-hmm. Um, but I, I do think it’s a worthwhile conversation of, well, what do you share? How much do you share when, where, uh, with whom? Um, so let’s talk about that. So let’s, yeah.

Rory: And we’re aligned on honesty, so I mm-hmm. I think from that standpoint of going, okay, let’s make that the foundation mm-hmm. All of those questions.

So why don’t you go first? What, what do you. Is there anything off limits or what? Well, [00:23:00] some things are off limits, I dunno, is, let’s start with that. Is there anything off limits of what you would share publicly and that you would advise other people or not advise other people in terms of where their boundaries are?

Yeah, in terms of what to talk about. I

AJ: think there’s a difference between private and transparent. I think that you can be transparent to the degree of, Hey, I don’t have a hidden agenda here. There’s nothing in this for me. I think there’s some things with being transparent where you can be clear, you can be honest, but then there are some things that are private and it’s just none your business.

And I think knowing the distinction and both your professional life and in your, uh, personal life of there are things that are private. Like if I have a, a confidential conversation that is private. I’m not gonna share that, right. Uh, that’s at home or at business. So there are things that are private, which means that you’re still working through them, which means you have a, you know, [00:24:00] an agreement with another person that these things are confidential and not to be shared with the public or with anyone else.

So I think there are plenty of things in life that are private. I think there’s many things that I do not share about our family and our children. Those are private. Right. There are things that happen, uh, with close friends and family members in our business of those are private things. Like, I’m not gonna share the p and l statement, right?

It’s like there are some things that are private. However, at the same token, you know, on the p and l statement, it’s like there are plenty of things that I’m transparent with. Of like what our revenue is at and where we have expense overages. And so I think there’s a line of going what’s appropriate to be shared because it means something to the people hearing it versus what is private, which means it needs to stay confidential or, and you gotta ask yourself is just, is um, is this oversharing.

And I think there is a fine line and you just kind of have to know for yourself. But to me, oversharing is sharing anything that would [00:25:00] break confidence, that would break confidence that you have said, Hey, this is a private situation with a person or with a group of people. And if you’re sharing things that were, you know, talked about or agreed to be incompetent, that’s oversharing.

Those are not things for the public. Those are things for private. And then there’s the willingness to be transparent. Uh, you know, I I, I’ll give you a personal example, uh, back to it. ’cause I mentioned earlier it took me two full years to say publicly I was fired. Right. And, uh. We were at a dinner here recently and someone had asked you, you know, I had a mouthful of biscuit or something.

And so I was like, you tell the story. Well, I chew this, uh, biscuit. And they were like, so tell us about your business or whatever. And you said, well, you know, seven years ago we exited.

Rory: Mm-hmm.

AJ: Right? And as soon as I got done chewing, I was like, well, to be clear, he exited. I got real fired.

Rory: Very, you said? I got very fired.

I got

AJ: very fired. And I think for me in the [00:26:00] past, the inauthentic part was just to go along with, we exited and it’s like, to some degree that’s true, but that’s not authentic. Uh, that’s not a hundred percent accurate. No, I got very fired. And I think that’s the difference of like, do I need to share the details of why I got fired?

How I got fired? What happened in private boardroom conversations? No. That is oversharing. Those are things that were in confidence.

Rory: So what, where’s the what, what, how do you, what’s, what are the characteristics of where the line is? Like how do you know what’s the line? So for me, clearly if it’s confidential, sure.

That’s just a trusted, like this is agreed that this is confidential. I

AJ: think you have to ask yourself, where am I, oversharing?

Rory: All right,

AJ: so if somebody asks me, they’re like, so you got fired? Tell what? What did you do? Like, why’d you get fired? I’m like, there was a growing difference of opinions, and I always say, I got asked some very pointed questions.

I gave my very honest answers, and [00:27:00] they were not in alignment. Yeah,

Rory: philosophical differences. There were philosophical differences, which is like, it sounds cheesy to say, but it’s like that’s really, that is the most honest answer that there is. So that

AJ: is being transparent. What would be, oversharing would be like, well, I said this and then they said this, and then they said this.

And then I said like, that’s what purpose does that serve? And so as I’m sharing, I’m always asking, what is the point of me sharing this? And if there is not a point, then it’s my signal to go that’s oversharing. In other words, AKA gossip. Gossip. Mm-hmm. So I’m always asking myself, is this oversharing AKA gossip or is there a point?

To the story, and that is my, that is my filter of, is what I’m sharing, serving my audience by giving them a lesson that can help them? Versus, am I just reliving the story for the sake of like working through my own emotions? Or have I resolved what has [00:28:00] happened? Have I learned a lesson, and now can I share it in the benefit of another person?

Rory: So there are two rules that I’ve just gotten clear on for myself about what the, where the boundary is for being authentic and, and sharing, just listening to you talk. The first one is, if you are still processing it, do not share it. This, these are rules for me. They don’t have to be rules for everybody, but as you are talking, I’m going, that’s rule number one.

Rule number two is if me sharing. Is going to harm a different, a relationship I have with someone somewhere else. Keep it to yourself. Keep it to yourself, right? Those even,

AJ: even if you don’t have a relationship with that person, even if you don’t like that person, you do not cause her harm to other people because you decided to overshare.

It’s inappropriate. It’s gossip, right? If it’s harmful, you keep it to yourself.

Rory: If I’m sharing details. Any information that is going to harm my relationship or harm [00:29:00] someone else, I have crossed the boundary Absolutely. Of oversharing. So I’ve never been so clear on those two things as just listening to you talk and be like, because one of the biggest mistakes that I’ve made in oversharing has been talking about things that I’m processing.

Mm-hmm. Like. Don’t talk about things on air when you’re processing them in your life. It’s like, it’s gotta be in the past. It shouldn’t be in the present or, you know, approach with caution. If it’s in, in the present,

AJ: that’s what therapy is for.

Rory: Yeah. Another way of saying this would be, talk about your scars.

AJ: Yeah. Not your

Rory: wounds, not your scabs. Mm-hmm. Right? Like if it’s still a scab, it’s like it’s too fresh. You’re not fully clear on what this lesson is. You know, you’re still living it,

AJ: you, it’s interest. Yeah. And I think it’s interesting because like I, the only reason that I talk very publicly and openly about getting fired now is because I have complete resolution.

Like I have no. [00:30:00] My intentions, I have no malice, like, uh, complete forgiveness. And, and in fact, how I know it’s a time to share is that I’m nothing but grateful for it. I’m so grateful that it happened. Um, I’m so appreciative of the lessons that I’ve learned and the person that I’ve become because of that.

That’s how I know it. I, I’ve healed and I can share. There’s other, you know, things that in my life where,

Rory: you know what? Just really quick. That’s a, a really big deal. If you’re not grateful for it, then you haven’t gotten your lesson from it.

AJ: Yeah.

Rory: Like if you’re not grateful for it yet, you haven’t learned the lesson from it yet.

Mm-hmm. That’s really good.

AJ: And I think with that, again, that’s all of us discerning. Am I telling the story so that others can learn a lesson? Right. Good or bad. Right. And I think those are really important. It’s like when I decide to share something, to be authentic, to be vulnerable, I am going, there is something in this for [00:31:00] you.

And if I don’t know what it is, then I don’t share. I don’t share it. And you know, I think another example is, you know, in our book, wealthy and Well-Known that came out this, you know, past summer, I told the first time ever the public story of our family’s car accident. That’s a great example of for the last, however old I am, 35 years, I haven’t been clear on the lesson from that tragic car accident, so I’ve never shared it.

I’ve never shared the story. I’ve never done podcasts. I’ve never spoken about it. I’ve never written about it. It’s because I wasn’t clear on what benefit does this have to anyone else other than some biographical story of my life. The moment I got clear on, oh, this is the reason to share this story, this is the lesson.

Only then did I start, start sharing that story and that took, you know, [00:32:00] let’s just sense adulthood. That took 22 years to get clear on what’s the benefit of sharing this story for someone else. And so it’s, there’s not necessarily a timing on it. It’s going when you get clear that this story that has occurred in my life has the benefit to help someone else, then I know that it’s time to share, to be authentic, to be vulnerable.

And until I’m clear on that,

Rory: yeah, I don’t talk about it. And this is the difference between self-centered and service centered. When I’m processing something, it’s self-centered. When I want to tell a story so people agree with me or take my side, it’s self-centered. If I’m trying to sort out my emotions, it’s self-centered.

When I’m telling a story for the purpose of. And a lesson for someone else that’s service centered. And it reminds me of, you know, one of my, my speaking mentors, Craig Valentine, uh, when we, we talk about storytelling, he used to say, tell an I focused story. But a you focused message. [00:33:00] That’s one of the secret parts of story.

If you can only tell the I focus story, you’re not ready to tell the story yet. Mm mm-hmm. That’s what I’m taking from you is just like, until you can deliver that, you focused message. You’re not ready to tell, tell the story publicly. I, I think that’s super powerful and a sharp distinction.

AJ: Yeah, and I think those are the things where I really lean into this, uh, definition of authenticity, of just being willing to be honest.

And really looking through the lens of if we’re gonna share something, right, be authentic. It’s in the service, it’s in the benefit of the listener, of the audience. And in that regard, be authentic, share. Um, and that’s, that to me is that little bit of a delineation. And when I know there’s a lot of industries out there where this comes up of, well, I can’t really be authentic because of compliance issues or.

I’ve signed NDAs or you know, there’s regulatory issues that I can’t, can’t, can’t, and I’m like, [00:34:00] no, when I say this, in all kindness, those are big, fat excuses, right? That you’re thinking through the details, uh, the micro components, the oversharing components of the story, and it’s like nobody needs to know the X, Y, Z details.

At a higher level story, what’s the lesson that you would share? And I think that’s where people get stuck and caught up with, I can’t really be myself. I can’t be authentic because you know, I’m in a, you know NDA or I’m in a this and it’s like yes and right. It’s like back to, you know, when I got fired. I can tell that.

Are you gonna learn all the, the nitty gritty details? No. Once not pertinent to the story or the lesson. Don’t, you don’t need know don to. Mm-hmm. But also that’s oversharing. And so I think this is also really applicable to anyone who’s listening, who’s in a regulatory or highly compliant, or you have an NDA.

It’s, if you’re worried about that, [00:35:00] then you’re already too concerned on the specifics, not the lesson. Don’t focus on the story. Focus on the lesson that you learned. For somebody else.

Rory: One of the other things I think you should highlight for everybody, or I guess I will underscore that you’ve said that I really do love about this conversation is share the hard parts of your story.

Mm-hmm. You said that a while back, and to me that feels honest. Mm-hmm. And that feels real. And I do feel like there is a general. Unwillingness for people to share the hard parts of their story

AJ: because they’re hard.

Rory: Yes. How have you gotten yourself to be able to share the hard parts of your story? Like how did you overcome that fear of like whatever, whatever was holding, what was holding you back from doing it?

What did you learn and then like what has sharing the hard parts of your story done?

AJ: Yeah, I think the, for [00:36:00] any of you who are struggling with, you know, this idea of being authentic and sharing the hard parts, it’s, it’s only hard sharing the hard parts when you think that the hard parts define you. And what I have learned about myself and.

Lots of conversations of others is that most of us refrain from sharing the hard parts because we think it changes the way that others view us. And that is really self-centered. It it’s really about how do I want to be seen versus how can I serve? And for me, when I realized, oh, I’m protecting this image, I realized, wow, like I’m really overly consumed with myself.

I think that was like an aha moment of like what’s harder than being self-consumed and self-centered. Like that was the harder thing for me to grasp of like, wow, like that. That was a hard pill to swallow for me of like, I’m being [00:37:00] so self-centered. I am being so self-consumed with my image and the way people view me and the way I want to be seen, that I’m not even allowing anyone to actually know me, and that’s a pretty lonely life.

And so I think for me, it’s for all of us to realize it’s the hard parts that actually allow people to get to know you. And at the end of the day, that’s why we share is so that people get to, to have a larger glimpse of we’re not alone. Like none of us. We all go through hard parts. We all have hard days.

We all have hard stories. We’ve all been through hard things to varying degrees. When we refuse to share those, it’s like we’re creating ourselves in these little isolated bubbles. And the moment that you start sharing those, you create real connection. And the very first time I shared, you know, that I was fired, there was someone in the room, her name is, uh, Shire, and she walked up to me and she was like, [00:38:00] I, I can’t believe you just shared that.

That exact same story happened to me just a few months ago. I thought I was all alone. I was too embarrassed to tell anyone, not even my friends. No. And it hit me for the first time, oh, this is what connection means. It’s like when your story has the ability to connect you to another human being, to let them know that they’re not alone.

And so I think a lot of sharing the hard parts has everything to do with have you healed from it? And when you haven’t healed from it, it’s still hard. And if it’s still hard to share and it’s still hard to talk about, then it’s just the signal that you haven’t healed from it. And if you haven’t healed from it, then you’re not ready to share it.

But when you can share it without it actually affecting you, then you know that you’ve healed and you’re ready to share.

Rory: That’s beautiful. I love authenticity.

AJ: A full [00:39:00] 360 turnaround. That

Rory: is, I mean, honest honesty and connection and service centeredness. Sign me up if that’s what we’re talking about. I’m totally on board.

AJ: This is one of our favorite segments where we get to take a question from BBG members and the most voted question gets asked on the show today. So that’s what we’re gonna do right now. So here’s the question. Everyone keeps telling me to be more authentic, but I don’t know where the line is between connection and oversharing.

Oh, what an appropriate question for today’s conversation. How do I know what’s appropriate for my audience and what actually hurts my brand? Great question, right? Because there’s that line of what do you share to be, uh, connecting and to be personable? And then what’s the line of like, oh, that was oversharing and now it has hurt my reputation.

So, Rory, since you’re such a fan of this topic, why don’t you [00:40:00] start,

Rory: I don’t know the answer to this question, um, because there’s a part of me that would say. If you don’t feel comfortable sharing it, don’t share it. Yeah,

AJ: I said, good luck MS test.

Rory: But then there’s another part of me that goes, you’re never gonna be comfortable sharing the hard parts of your story. So it requires you at some point to get uncomfortable.

So I think I would probably just go back to some of the highlights of what we’ve talked about in the episode. Number one, if I’m still processing it. It’s too early to share it.

AJ: Yeah.

Rory: You know, if I haven’t healed from it, it’s too early to share it. Number two, if it’s going, if me sharing it is going to hurt another person or damage my relationship with another person,

AJ: don’t share.

Rory: Don’t share it. And then I think three, which is [00:41:00] another theme from the the episode, is if you can’t frame it in the form of a service centered lesson for somebody else. Don’t share it because that really means you’re back to number one, which is you’re still processing it. Mm. So those, I guess, would be the three rules and most of that came out of this conversation today.

AJ: Yeah, I think those are really good. And I think the only thing that I would say to this question of, you know, how do you know what’s appropriate for your audience and what could actually hurt your brand is I never recommend sharing the hard parts of your story or, you know, sharing the difficult parts online first.

I think this is back to the value and the importance of offline relationships, offline, um, conversations. Um, and I always start with going like, Hey, before I throw something online where it can be taken out of context, uh, because that does happen. It’s like, you know, how many of us get those [00:42:00] emails where you read it in the, in the voice that you’re feeling, not in the voice it was written.

I think that happens the same. The exact same thing happens online. We interpret something, we hear something in the mood that we’re in, not in the mood that the story or the lesson was created, and so I just think it’s really valuable that you do a lot of this offline before you do it online. Right? If you haven’t been willing to share this with your closest, trusted friends and family.

Why are you sharing it with a bunch of strangers on the internet? Don’t your friends and family need to benefit from your life experiences too? So like, I just think this is a really important litmus test of going, like, if you don’t feel good enough about it, that you wouldn’t share the people who are next to you, the people you work with, the people that you do life with, then why would you be sharing it with a bunch of strangers?

That you don’t know. Um, and so I think that too is a litmus test. If you haven’t been willing to share [00:43:00] it, if you haven’t talked about it, haven’t had conversations about it offline, then it’s probably not ready to go online. That would be the thing I would add.

Rory: One thing that I would add on this too, is if you are passionate about something, I think you should share it where I, what, what I think her.

Hurts people is when they’re so passionate about something and they don’t feel like they can talk about it because they feel like they’ll be judged for it. Hmm. And I remember when we had the whole conversation about my Eternal Life podcast and me being a skeptical of Christianity and doing the research and becoming a believer.

I was talking to you one time and I’m like, I don’t think I can share this. I think that customers. We might lose customers over it. I, I think I have friends that are not Christian who might be hurt by it. Mm-hmm. Um, and you said to me, [00:44:00] which is right out of the Bible, you were like, are you living for the approval of man?

And that gave me a lot of conviction to go, if I’m really passionate about something, I need to be okay. That some people would eject me from their life because of that. To go. I would rather be ejected from someone’s life, but get to be who I really am than stay in someone’s life and have to constantly cover up who I really am.

Mm-hmm. So I think, you know. Hurt and healing and fear is, is is one separate place that I think is a little more gray area of what to, to share. But if you’re passionate about puppies, if you’re passionate about trees, if you’re passionate about something, you know, I, I think you can, you tend to skew more towards sharing it.

Yeah. Because if you’re not sharing it and you’re passionate about it, I think you are, you’re, [00:45:00] you’re tempering. Your God-given desire of like what you care about. And I think that’s how you lose yourself is when you’re not, when you’re, it’s, it’s one thing to share the hard parts of your story. It’s another thing to dim the thing that you care so deeply about.

Mm-hmm. And you know, I’m very weird in that way. I love Jesus, and I love digital marketing, and I love speaking, and I love my family. It’s like a weird combination of things, but it’s like those are the things that I, I genuinely love, and if there was any one of those things that I purposely tempered and, and held myself throttled.

Then I would start to feel like I was losing myself. Mm-hmm. And I, so I think it’s, there is a, there is a courage and a conviction that you gave me, particularly with the Eternal Life Podcast to go if you are genuinely passionate about it and it’s not hurtful to others.

AJ: I think that’s the key [00:46:00] though, right there.

It’s as long as it’s not hurtful to others, and I think it’s like we can all believe different things and coexist. We can believe different things and still have dinner together and still be friends and still work together. Uh, and, uh, those are, uh. Maybe hard concepts to believe these days, but like we can all believe very different things and still coexist.

And I think the reason that that line is blurry sometimes is your, your zeal and your passion can sometimes, not yours, I’m saying in general, come across as hurtful and that’s what we have to temper. It’s like I can share what I believe without telling anyone else what they believe is wrong.

Rory: Yes.

AJ: Right.

It’s like this isn’t about anyone being right or wrong, it’s just me sharing. What I believe, what I’m passionate about and not condemning anyone else for what they believe. And I think that’s a, that’s a clear filter of, as long as it’s not hurtful. Let your passions fly.

Rory: And that’s the boundary of freedom in general, right?

It’s like I am free [00:47:00] to be me un until I am imposing upon you. Mm-hmm. That I think is going ’cause because then, uh, my freedom has overpowered yours and so we’re not able to, to coexist. So I, I guess that that is really a key part of it. Yeah. Is like it’s not harmful to others.

AJ: I think that’s probably key to this question, right?

Like how do you know what’s appropriate to share and what might be harmful to your brand is to just make sure it’s not harmful to anyone else. If it’s harmful to someone else, it’ll be harmful to your brand, but if it’s helpful to someone else, it will be helpful to your brand. I.

WWK Ep 004:The Sales Mindset Shift That Will Change Your Business Forever 

[00:00:00] I once introduced you in a room full of like colleagues and friends, as [00:00:05] one of the greatest salespeople, the greatest salesperson that I’ve ever met, which I still firmly [00:00:10] believe. I think you are the best salesperson. Well, let me just be clear. What he did not introduce me [00:00:15] as was his wife. She has to tell this part.

The mother of his children, the [00:00:20] CEO of Brand Builders Group, just like I was some random person on the street, greatest salesperson I [00:00:25] ever met. I’m like, uh, how about your wife?[00:00:30]

Hey, welcome back to the podcast. [00:00:35] Today we’re talking about something very important, how to generate more sales. In a very [00:00:40] tactical way, what do you need to do to sell more? What do [00:00:45] you need to know about why people don’t sell more? And, uh, what are [00:00:50] the, the, what’s the data you need to look at at your business?

How do you drive leads? How do you convert those leads? [00:00:55] What are the mistakes that people are making related to those sales? And we’re gonna have a [00:01:00] dialogue back and forth about that. Many of the things that we agree on, [00:01:05] a few of the things that we see differently. And, um, you [00:01:10] know, uh, this is something that AJ and I have spent our entire career studying is just professional selling.

[00:01:15] And if you’re a personal brand, this is something that you need to pay attention to. [00:01:20] Hi, babe. Welcome back. Welcome back. Um, I think [00:01:25] one of the things that we should start with is defining, or for some of you listening, [00:01:30] redefining sales. Hmm. I still think currently sales is a four letter word [00:01:35] for a lot of people.

They think it’s sleazy or cheesy or [00:01:40] unprofessional, and that they’re above it. Mm-hmm. And I think redefining [00:01:45] sales in this setting, I think is really important. And I just firmly [00:01:50] believe we can talk about all the tactics, all the techniques, all the strategies. [00:01:55] And none of them will work if you do not have confidence in [00:02:00] conviction that this is a good thing.

Yeah, right. Sales is a good [00:02:05] thing. It’s a necessary thing. It’s essential. And it’s not some formula, it’s a [00:02:10] conversation. It’s a. Important conversation that we all have to have. And if we [00:02:15] just back it up to talk about what is sales and remind [00:02:20] ourselves of how many, many sales we all make on a daily basis, I think it will [00:02:25] just help put some context to that.

Sales is not a four [00:02:30] letter word, it’s not a bad thing, it’s not high pressure. It’s not the old, you know, used [00:02:35] car salesman. I always wonder where that analogy came from. Hmm. Like what, what used [00:02:40] car salesman did so bad that he has ruined entire [00:02:45] industry for everyone since? ’cause that is the one thing that people, I just don’t wanna be like the [00:02:50] used car salesman.

I’m like, who was this used car salesman and what did he do? Like he [00:02:55] has ruined it for generations of used car salesman. Uh, but it doesn’t have to be that way. [00:03:00] No, for sure. And, um, by the way, Preston, can you grab a copy of our book? [00:03:05] Let’s put it there. Um, there should be one in the closet out [00:03:10] there. Yeah. Um,[00:03:15] [00:03:20] [00:03:25] [00:03:30] [00:03:35]

right. Also, before y’all lean, I’m gonna show y’all [00:03:40] mockups at the studio. Oh, yes. I love that. Of, of our home studio. Mm-hmm. [00:03:45] Oh, I’m excited about that. Oh, yeah. But work on a little something, something before you left. So [00:03:50] something, yes. A little treat. All right. So to, to [00:03:55] pick up there, there’s a story in this book.

I’m sorry, I wanna address that [00:04:00] because it’s gonna cut in. So there might be a moment of, of a [00:04:05] fun. Wow. There might be a moment of like.[00:04:10]

You know what I mean? Just to acknowledge the book is now there. [00:04:15] Wasn’t there now. Okay. Got it. So that reminded me of a [00:04:20] story in our book. So I had to bring it in because of this. And this is a story that you [00:04:25] don’t love, but it’s a, it is a story of when I once introduced you. It’s a [00:04:30] story you don’t love. I have no problem with it.

Well, uh, this is the [00:04:35] one part of our book that Rory tried to rewrite and edit out. And I was like, no, [00:04:40] this is what happened. Crazy person. It stays. So you have to read the book if [00:04:45] you want the whole story. But the, the, the, the part of the story that matters here is that I once [00:04:50] introduced you in a room full of like colleagues and friends as one of [00:04:55] the greatest salespeople, the greatest salesperson that I’ve ever met, which I still firmly believe.

I [00:05:00] think you are the best salesperson. Well, let me just be clear. What he did not introduce me as [00:05:05] was his wife. She has to tell this part of the story. The mother of his children, the CEO of [00:05:10] Brand Builders group, just like I was some random person on the street, greatest salesperson I ever met. [00:05:15] I’m like, uh, how about your wife?

I said that before you got over there. I’m [00:05:20] sure of it. There’s no way I didn’t say that. Um, separate of all of that and how [00:05:25] much of a jerk your husband can be at times, um, you are a [00:05:30] phenomenal salesperson. And I mean, from a, from a technical perspective to to, [00:05:35] to go on what you were saying about if someone believes that sales is bad or [00:05:40] wrong or manipulative, they’re not gonna do it.

And if somebody [00:05:45] understands the power of it. What you can build is life changing. I mean, [00:05:50] you have changed our life with this ability to sell and for, for [00:05:55] those people that don’t know. ’cause I do think this is an important part of the story and it’s sometimes why I tell it is, yes, you [00:06:00] are the CEO of Brand Builders group and you run the company.

You are the steward [00:06:05] of financially of, of our organization. Yes, you are a [00:06:10] speaker. Yes, you are an author. But I think in some ways, first and foremost, you are a [00:06:15] saleswoman. Yeah. Professionally. And that’s how we started our, before we even [00:06:20] mm-hmm. Were dating, when we were business partners, we were selling together.

Mm-hmm. And I’m pretty [00:06:25] sure I had to sell you on all those dates way. No, that’s one [00:06:30] thing I closed you on. Uh uh, I have many examples of, it was the opposite, but [00:06:35] Okay. This is gonna be the most embarrassing episode of my life. Um, [00:06:40] so talk to me about what sales is not because I think what you opened with is really good.[00:06:45]

And go, what do people think sales is? Mm-hmm. That [00:06:50] sales is not? And why do you think that? Yeah. I think that people [00:06:55] think sales is convincing someone to do something that they don’t want to [00:07:00] do. Mm. And I think that’s where you get the icky, yucky [00:07:05] feelings where it’s like, I was tricked. It was like, you know, the, [00:07:10] you know, s no, whatever.

What does they say? The, the snake oil [00:07:15] salesman? Yeah. The snake oil salesman. Uh, again, what are those saying? Like, where’d that come from? Where is their snake oil? Yeah. [00:07:20] Where have I been missing all this? And, and he must have been, I mean, even though he is manipulating people, he must have done a really good job.[00:07:25]

Yeah. ’cause a lot of people know about it. Where are all these things coming from? This is gonna be my evening homework assignment. Um, but I think that’s [00:07:30] really where it comes from. It’s like, oh, I was tricked, or I was [00:07:35] misled, or I was lied to, or I was oversold over promised, [00:07:40] um, taken advantage of, taken advantage of, manipulated.

And I think that’s where it comes [00:07:45] from. And I think at the end of the day, that all comes from this, this feeling of I’m [00:07:50] being convinced to do something that I don’t wanna do. [00:07:55] But as a consumer, as a buyer, I didn’t have enough confidence just to say [00:08:00] no. Mm-hmm. And I got sold into something. And, you [00:08:05] know, it’s one of the things where I have to remind myself and our team, it’s like, we don’t [00:08:10] wanna oversell.

And at the same time, if you don’t have enough confidence [00:08:15] and conviction in what you’re selling, then stop selling it. Mm. Like if you’re not gonna ask [00:08:20] someone to do it ’cause you don’t believe in it, then please leave. Go. Go find [00:08:25] something that you can be so convicted in that you can’t not talk about it.

Mm-hmm. And if you’re not that, [00:08:30] whatever, then that’s when it feels salesy, because you don’t even have enough internal [00:08:35] confidence and conviction to go. Now you don’t understand. This can change your life. [00:08:40] And when you don’t have that, it comes out as. [00:08:45] Lying or, uh, false. That’s shallow false beliefs. Yeah. And [00:08:50] I think that’s where a lot of us are.

It’s like, and it takes a lot of, uh, firsthand research [00:08:55] and experience to have that level of conviction. Uh, I personally love [00:09:00] it when I’m in a great sales presentation. Hmm. Like, I love it [00:09:05] when I’m like, when you’re a prospect being sold by a Right. Oh yeah. When I’m a consumer, uh, or [00:09:10] like, uh, recruiting is also sales.

I think we, we think that sales is just [00:09:15] selling and buying a products and services. It’s not, uh, and I think [00:09:20] recruiting is one of the greatest sales of all time. Right. You did this, do this. [00:09:25] Um. It’s the same thing. It’s like when I have a candidate that I’m interviewing and [00:09:30] they’re like, can we just stop and let me tell you why I’m the best candidate on the planet for your company?

I’m [00:09:35] like, yes, I would like to hear that. I wanna see how good you are at that. [00:09:40] Uh, I’ve been even in conversations before where I was in a termination conversation and [00:09:45] the employee being terminated was like, um, I don’t really [00:09:50] want to be fired. And I’m like, huh, what? And they’re like, can I tell [00:09:55] you why I don’t think you should fire me?

I’m like, yeah, true story. You should. And I [00:10:00] literally got resold and rehired the person at the end of the call. I’m like [00:10:05] that. And I literally said to him, and I was like, if you can do what you just did to me [00:10:10] on all your calls, we’re gonna be just fine. Mm-hmm. Um, but that’s because it was like, no, I’m [00:10:15] convicted.

I wanna be here. I want to do this. That’s when it doesn’t feel like [00:10:20] a sale is when you believe in it so much that you’re like, I have this story and this [00:10:25] story and I have this proof and I saw this happen and this happened and it’s not a [00:10:30] sale anymore. Mm-hmm. It’s a, it’s a transference of your own confidence and your own conviction [00:10:35] and your products and services.

Uh, and what I tell people is like, a sale can’t happen until there’s a [00:10:40] transference of trust. Mm-hmm. And that happens when you’re real. And it can’t just be a [00:10:45] script. I think outlines are good. Frameworks are good. Scripts are no bueno [00:10:50] because it disallows your humanity. Mm-hmm. It disa allowss real [00:10:55] conversation.

Now are they good for learning and practice? Absolutely. But at some point you have to put [00:11:00] it away and you have to go, I’m just having a real conversation with another human being about something I [00:11:05] believe in. Mm-hmm. It could be insurance, it could be a car, it could be a house, it could be [00:11:10] personal branding.

You know, you can request a free call with us right now. Um, it could be whatever it [00:11:15] is. So on that note, genuinely. One of the things [00:11:20] that I, there’s many things I love about you professionally [00:11:25] speaking. One of the things that I’ve always loved is you and I have a very [00:11:30] similar sales style. Mm-hmm. And it’s everything that you’re talking about.

And I [00:11:35] think where a lot of the distaste has come from for the profession of selling [00:11:40] is from sales trainers who teach selling. And they teach [00:11:45] it as how to manipulate someone, how to convert a no into a yes. How to [00:11:50] pressure someone. It’s like sell or be sold it. You know, always be they’re selling you or you’re [00:11:55] selling them always.

Because if you’re not first, you’re last. And it’s like, you know, you keep asking until they say [00:12:00] yes and like put your head down until they let you in the house. Like, yeah. There’s so much [00:12:05] of that energy. Uhhuh pressure’s. Pressure. Pressure. And you [00:12:10] know, you and I are some of the. Best salespeople [00:12:15] probably in, in the profession today.

And we figured out [00:12:20] you could do this by serving people and putting their interest first, um, [00:12:25] but not being so soft that you’re not convicted and you don’t tell ’em what you believe. And so we created this [00:12:30] service centered selling methodology, which is what we teach at Brand Builders Group. So if you’ve ever [00:12:35] had a, a bad taste in your mouth about sales or had a horrible experience from a [00:12:40] salesperson and that’s turned you off for like, I don’t ever wanna be that.

I really wanna encourage you to listen to this [00:12:45] whole episode and see if you don’t get a different vibe. And this is part of why we started Brand Builders Group, was [00:12:50] to go, we wanna teach the world a different way to do this a, a [00:12:55] better way to do this. And ironically. You can close more [00:13:00] sales with less pressure.

You can close more sales by being less [00:13:05] self interested and more service centered. Yeah. But it’s a really, like, what does that mean? [00:13:10] Right. And I think at the end of the day, what most people do is they’re, [00:13:15] they’re too nervous, they’re too under underconfident, they’re too self-conscious, or they just don’t have [00:13:20] the wherewithal to know that a sale is made when you ask questions, [00:13:25] not when you share information.

Yeah. So define how would you define selling then? If it’s, [00:13:30] if it’s not all those things, it’s not manipulative. It’s very, very simple. Selling is [00:13:35] a progression of questions. The end from the very first [00:13:40] question to the very last question. The very first question is, you know, like our team asked is like, so how did you hear [00:13:45] about brand Builders Group?

That’s the beginning of the sale. The last is, what’s your credit [00:13:50] card like? It’s, it’s a, it’s a progression of questions, [00:13:55] and I think we forget somewhere in the middle. It’s like, at the end of the day, our [00:14:00] prospects, right? If they were willing, and I’m speaking about Brand Builders group [00:14:05] specifically, and I shared this with our team earlier this week.

Ironically, I’m like, I just want you to think about for a [00:14:10] second, all the hoops, and so I want you to think about as you’re listening, how does this apply to you and your [00:14:15] business? But for us, I want you to listen to all the hoops that a prospective [00:14:20] client has to go through to actually become a client. I want you listen to [00:14:25] this.

They have to listen to a podcast or watch a piece of content or hear about us from a [00:14:30] friend, right? So they have already invested minutes or hours or years in [00:14:35] some cases, of learning from us, hearing from us, watching us, hearing their friend talk [00:14:40] about us, whatever it is. So they’ve already invested some amount of time into investigation, or in some cases they’ve read the book, [00:14:45] they’ve listened to the book.

There’s already a time investment there. Then they had to have enough [00:14:50] interest to request a call with us. They had to fill out a micro form, [00:14:55] then they had to fill out an application. Mm-hmm. Okay. That takes five to seven minutes. [00:15:00] Then they had to go through all of that, give us their personal information, share their dreams, share their income [00:15:05] levels, all the things that we ask for to make sure that we’re selling the right thing to the right person in the right [00:15:10] season of life.

Then if they have to go to a calendar and make time on their calendar [00:15:15] and give it to us, they have to sign up for that call. Then they have to show up for that call. These free [00:15:20] calls that we do, they are freed strategy calls. Then they have to go through an hour of more [00:15:25] talking and listening and learning.

Then they have to be willing to give us their [00:15:30] financial information to sign up for this. Then they have to read our agreement, agree to all of it, [00:15:35] sign it, pause right there. That’s a lot. It’s a lot. [00:15:40] So I just like, so, and I, I was sharing this with our team earlier. I’m like, don’t you [00:15:45] tell me in week one or in month one, they’re not interested anymore.

Mm. [00:15:50] That’s a bunch of balo. No, we need to [00:15:55] resell their interest. No, they lost interest. That’s our problem to own. That’s [00:16:00] not theirs. They already went through all the hoops they already filled out in the information. They already shared what they wanted [00:16:05] to do. Now we must deliver. Right? Nobody loses interest after two weeks after all [00:16:10] that they just went through.

That’s a lot of hoops. Now, can life events change and uh, [00:16:15] circumstances change? Sure. But this whole idea of oh, they got cold feet [00:16:20] after all that. Here’s what happens. When I think people get cold feet, [00:16:25] that is always a sign to me that somebody just got oversold. Cold [00:16:30] feet means they got oversold. It almost was like, it can’t be that good, [00:16:35] can it?

And I think that happens. Most often when [00:16:40] we’re doing too much talking and that we’re not doing enough asking. So, back [00:16:45] to this concept of sales is just a progression of questions. It is [00:16:50] a true, genuine desire of curiosity. Like I really [00:16:55] actually wanna know, why did you request a call with us today? What are you doing in your personal [00:17:00] brand?

How are you trying to use this to grow your business? Like, what, what do you want to do? What are [00:17:05] your dreams? What’s not working? Why isn’t that working? Uh, what have you tried [00:17:10] before? Like, those are genuine questions to go. It’s not [00:17:15] How can I sell you? It’s are we a fit for you? Amen. [00:17:20] And I think that’s the difference of someone who’s like, I know I, I, I really [00:17:25] need to know that you’re the right fit because I’m about to lay it on you and lay it on [00:17:30] you means.

I love that we’ve gotten to know you today. We are not a fit for [00:17:35] you. And a great salesperson is not trying to make a commission. A [00:17:40] great salesperson is not trying to make a sale, they’re trying to make a relationship. Mm. And I think that’s [00:17:45] important, and I have no problem at all any day of going. I don’t think we can help [00:17:50] you right now.

I don’t think you have the time nor the funds to give this the investment [00:17:55] it requires. However, I believe that you could be a fit for us one day. So I’m gonna send you off [00:18:00] with free resources. I have no problem. I’m not afraid of where the next sale is gonna come [00:18:05] from. I have, I have a hundred percent confidence I can go find another person who [00:18:10] is the right fit.

And that makes it easy for me to hold everything loosely and [00:18:15] not have a scarcity mentality, which makes it a low pressure environment. I have a [00:18:20] question of like, I, I don’t know if this is a good fit for you, uh, or. [00:18:25] I will find out if it is. And when it is, I’ll be like, I’m gonna tell you right now, I know exactly [00:18:30] who we’re looking to work with and it’s you.

I know exactly what we can do for someone like you. [00:18:35] This program is built for you. I’m gonna tell you why, based on all the information you just learned, and at the [00:18:40] end, I’m gonna help you get signed up. Mm-hmm. And that’s the difference of, no, I know [00:18:45] it’s the right fit for you versus, I don’t know, I hope it’s the right fit for you.

So I’m gonna go through the script [00:18:50] I have and fingers crossed. Yeah. I think the, you know, to the thing about what’s the [00:18:55] definition of selling and asking the questions, I would, I would. I would submit that you go, [00:19:00] we’re asking those questions to help someone figure out if this is the right fit for [00:19:05] them.

It’s not about me getting a sale. It’s not me, the salesperson versus you, [00:19:10] the prospect. It’s me with you versus your fears, your [00:19:15] worries, your excuses, your procrastination, or just you not being the right fit [00:19:20] for what we do, which is also okay. And we have to discover those questions. And I think [00:19:25] when you’re asking these questions, one of the things that I’ve become convicted in, like you said, [00:19:30] maybe some people don’t have the time, they don’t have the money For sure.

What I’ve really [00:19:35] become convicted in is for a program like ours. Somebody has to flat out [00:19:40] have the desire and the passion to fight for their dream. Amen. They have to say, I’m [00:19:45] gonna change the fricking world. Like I am here on a mission. I am a mission-driven messenger. I will [00:19:50] make the time. I make the time, find the money, the, and it.

And, and when we ask questions about, [00:19:55] tell me about your dreams, or why is this important to you? Or how would that make you feel? [00:20:00] If they don’t have a strong enough desire to do the thing that we help people [00:20:05] do, they’re gonna die on the road. Yeah. Which is what happens to most people. Mm-hmm. Is like they don’t have what it [00:20:10] takes because they don’t have the desire and we go.

If that’s you, I wanna find out [00:20:15] in the initial, initial conversation early on, early on, like, I don’t wanna waste your time or my time. You signing up for [00:20:20] something that you think is like, oh, they’re just gonna do this for me. No. Mm-hmm. We’re gonna show you [00:20:25] the way that has been proven again and again and again.

But it’s a difficult road. It’s a hard [00:20:30] journey and you have to prove to me that you want it and, and not to me. You have to prove to [00:20:35] yourself. Yeah. That you want it. You have to articulate out loud why this [00:20:40] transformation is important to you. Because when you start on the journey, it is gonna [00:20:45] get hard. You are gonna get busy.

You are gonna face rejection, there are gonna be excuses, there is [00:20:50] competition, there is economic challenges, and you have to make a decision. I’m gonna rise above all that. And [00:20:55] if, if that doesn’t come out in the sales conversation, yeah, they never articulate it. The moment [00:21:00] they hit that first barrier, they’re like, you know what?

I’m out. I can’t do this program. And it’s it, it might be [00:21:05] because we oversold them. But it also might be because we didn’t ask the right questions for them to [00:21:10] truly sell themselves on the power of this journey and why it matters. [00:21:15] Yeah, and I think that happens outside of just what we do here at Brand Builders Group, like I just see it [00:21:20] all the time, is we ask really surface level questions.

We get really surface [00:21:25] level answers and then we’re like, okay, I asked my five questions, now I’m gonna move into my presentation. [00:21:30] Mm-hmm. And that’s not what we’re talking about. It’s, you have to have enough [00:21:35] wherewithal to go, I don’t feel like they’ve gotten it. [00:21:40] And I think that’s where there just has to be a natural sense of curiosity.

Like we cannot [00:21:45] anyone, doesn’t matter what sales training companies give you, every single probing question, every [00:21:50] ne next best question on the planet. That’s where you just have to have a genuine curiosity of, [00:21:55] do I think what I offer can serve this person? Mm-hmm. And no one knows that [00:22:00] better than you.

And that’s how you have to figure out how to ask the right questions. And sometimes, [00:22:05] yeah, you need coaches, you need outside support to help do that, but at the end of the day, no one’s [00:22:10] gonna be able to sell your products and services as good as you. So you’ve gotta have enough [00:22:15] confidence and conviction that you can deliver.

And I think sometimes the sales don’t [00:22:20] happen when we’re lacking our own conviction and our own confidence in what we do. [00:22:25] Totally, totally. Yeah. I, I, I, I think of [00:22:30] this like, when people think of sales, you know, they think of the like, used car salesman, but I, when I think of [00:22:35] sales, I think of like a doctor.

Mm-hmm. Like when someone sits down with me, I have the [00:22:40] same level of experience and knowledge and education in the [00:22:45] professions of marketing and sales as a doctor, as a surgeon does. And I view [00:22:50] my profession in this way. And so when somebody is sitting with me, [00:22:55] I’m not telling them what to do. I’m listening to what they need, and I’m gonna, [00:23:00] I’m gonna prescribe a solution for them.

Yep. And that solution might be. Our [00:23:05] self-study virtual program. It might be our one-on-one, you know, our flagship one-on-one program. It might be a [00:23:10] private two-day experience, it might be free resources. It might [00:23:15] be, we’re not the right fit for you at all. I think you should go check this out. But when you go talk to a [00:23:20] doctor, they hook you up.

They take tests, they do diagnostics, they take [00:23:25] readings, and then they interpret the data that you give to them and they make a [00:23:30] prescription back to you. Yeah. That’s what I think a great, a truly great [00:23:35] professional, uh, seller does, and they have to be. [00:23:40] An expert both on the, the profession of selling and the, the sort of [00:23:45] conversational tactics.

I guess I’ll, I’ll call them. But then they also have to have the, the [00:23:50] conviction in what they’re doing to go like, you need surgery, you need a different diet plan, [00:23:55] you just need to exercise, you need, you need to read this book. Mm-hmm. Like, there’s a different [00:24:00] prescription. And honestly, that’s why I always tell people that sales is the last thing that the [00:24:05] founder should outsource.

Totally. It’s like, it’s the last thing. And ironically, it’s [00:24:10] the first thing that a lot of business people, entrepreneurs, uh, they wanna outsource, try to [00:24:15] outsource. And it’s like, why would you do that? Like, no one is going to have [00:24:20] that first level ex experience, context, expertise, case [00:24:25] studies, history. Ion, yeah.

Like, yes, [00:24:30] like you outsource everything else, but you keep sales until the very, very end. Until you have [00:24:35] somebody else who has been there long enough, who’s groomed up long enough, who has their own stories, who has [00:24:40] their own experience with the products and services. And that right there is exactly why I tell people all the [00:24:45] time, no sales is the last thing that you hire for.

It’s the last thing that you [00:24:50] outsource. Because at the end of the day, so much of selling is just social proof [00:24:55] of like, I’ve done it for someone else. Here’s the ex, here’s the, uh, results they got, they [00:25:00] experienced, uh, I’m pretty sure if it worked for this person, this person, this person, this person and this person, [00:25:05] I can make it work for you.

Right. And a lot of that just comes from that firsthand awareness. [00:25:10] And it’s really hard for a brand new hire to have that where it not [00:25:15] feel a little scripted. A little borrowed. Yeah. And at some point you’re gonna have to do that and that’s fine. [00:25:20] Uh, but that’s again, it’s the last thing, not the first thing you do.

I think the energy [00:25:25] here. Is if you see an amazing [00:25:30] movie, you go tell all your friends, you gotta see this movie. Like, uh, for [00:25:35] me, what was that movie? The Greatest Showman? Mm. Right. When I saw that movie, I was, I was telling everybody, [00:25:40] I’m like, you have to see this movie. Like the story, the message, the [00:25:45] music, the dancing, the acting, like you have to go see this.

I [00:25:50] didn’t get paid a commission for that. It’s the same thing when you go to an amazing restaurant and you’re like, oh [00:25:55] my gosh, every single bite like melted the most delicious [00:26:00] thing. Or you see a play or you go to a city or you, you, [00:26:05] you, when you have that kind of experience, you’re passionate to tell [00:26:10] people.

Too many entrepreneurs and personal brands are more [00:26:15] passionate about. A movie they saw than their own product. Mm. It’s like, I, I’ll tell you about this [00:26:20] amazing movie, but like, I won’t tell you about this thing. I’ve spent my life building. And I think that’s [00:26:25] kind of the energy that we need to, we need to marry up to go.

Like, [00:26:30] to your point about being convicted in your own transformation Yeah. That you can, that you can help [00:26:35] provide. ’cause if you’re not, why are you selling in the first place? Well, and I think that’s a lot of, at [00:26:40] least what I see today, and you know, we’ve been in the professional business of [00:26:45] selling for 20 years.

Our company prior to this was a professional sales coaching and training business. [00:26:50] So, uh, this is where I got started in business. You started in college. Um, but one [00:26:55] of the things that I see more frequently today than ever before is, uh, people tell me, it’s like [00:27:00] I’m, I’m doing all the things. It’s just not working.

And I’m like, what are these [00:27:05] things that you’re doing? Can you just walk me through? I need to know exactly. And they’re like, well, I’ve sent [00:27:10] all these emails and I’m like. Okay. You’ve [00:27:15] sent emails. Okay. I’m posting on social media. I built a website and I’m [00:27:20] like, I just wanna be very clear. None of that is selling, that is [00:27:25] marketing, that is not selling.

And they’re, they look at me like, what are you talking about? I’m like, [00:27:30] you need to talk to someone. Like what conversations have you [00:27:35] had and how many have you had? Send me a recording. I’ll audit it. [00:27:40] And they’re like, well, I haven’t done that. I’m like, then you have not been selling. [00:27:45] I don’t know what you think you’re doing.

That’s why you have no revenue. That’s why you have no sales. [00:27:50] You cannot have sales without selling. And it, it, there’s like [00:27:55] this disconnect between marketing and selling. Mm-hmm. And it’s like, well, you know, I [00:28:00] got this email template. I customized it and I sent it to everyone I know. I’m [00:28:05] like, when you said you have a template and you customized it, what does that mean?[00:28:10]

It’s like, and I think that’s something too that I think people forget. It’s like, how many [00:28:15] emails do you get? Right? Like, do you want some sort of generic [00:28:20] e Like, are you gonna respond to some generic half personalized, high half [00:28:25] customized email asking for a referral? No. I, no offense, I’m going to delete that.[00:28:30]

I, I, I do not have time for this Now, if it was genuinely personalized and [00:28:35] more importantly, if it was a phone call, if it was a meeting, if it was a coffee, and you have my time and [00:28:40] attention, I just don’t have time. Like, I get hundreds of emails every single [00:28:45] day. What is different about yours That I’m gonna sit there and go, you know what?

This person that I [00:28:50] kind of know that’s asking me to do something that I’m not even really sure what they’re asking for, that I can definitely [00:28:55] tell is general and templated. I just don’t have time for this. If they don’t have the [00:29:00] time to pick up the phone call and have a conversation with me, I do not have a time for your email.

Hmm. And I, and that, I [00:29:05] say that to good friends. It’s like, you wanna go on a walk, you wanna have coffee? Let me know. [00:29:10] Until then, I don’t even know what you’re asking me to do and I’m definitely not gonna try to figure it out for you. So [00:29:15] like that’s not how it works. So I would just encourage you too, if you’re asking yourself like, [00:29:20] why aren’t my sales growing?

It’s like how many conversations, conversations are you [00:29:25] having? Not emails not, definitely not social media posts. Not even [00:29:30] dms. Now, can you sell in your dms? Can you sell an email? I’m not saying no to that. Yes, but [00:29:35] that is marketing. That is not actual relationship building. You [00:29:40] wanna get real sales then talk to real people.

And I think that’s partly step one is [00:29:45] people are going, do people still do that? Yes. People still do [00:29:50] that. They get on Zoom, they have copy, they have phone calls. Yes, we still do that. [00:29:55] Um, and then I think the other thing is like knowing what to say. I think people [00:30:00] really struggle with, okay, you’re talking about questions.

Tell me what they are. Like, [00:30:05] how do I ask for the business? And I, I think it’s a really interesting thing. ’cause [00:30:10] a lot of people really, they’re just like, I’ll do it, but I don’t know what to say. What questions do I [00:30:15] ask? And at the very end, like, what do I ask them to do? So I think it would be [00:30:20] worthwhile if we actually got into some of the tactics of that.

Yeah. I mean, totally. So, so [00:30:25] obviously we have very specific tactics and things of, of what to [00:30:30] say and walk people through the presentation, but I think the, [00:30:35] what, what somebody, the thing to underscore, which you’ve said several times is [00:30:40] it’s questions. It’s selling is not about being a smooth talker, [00:30:45] being great at sales is about being a master question asker.

[00:30:50] It’s about being a master listener and knowing what questions you have [00:30:55] to ask in order to get someone to buy. And I think we can go into whatever tactics you [00:31:00] want to, to discuss, but I think from a, from a high level. [00:31:05] There is a cost to buying anything, right? So there is a cost of [00:31:10] time and money and energy to buy something when you’re selling.

We have [00:31:15] to ask the, whatever questions are [00:31:20] necessary to help someone understand that the thing that they’re going to get [00:31:25] is worth more than the cost that is going to be asked of them. Mm-hmm. [00:31:30] Also, similarly, the thing that we’re going to help them prevent [00:31:35] is going to be worth more than the cost of the thing that we are asking them [00:31:40] for.

And at a high level, that’s all selling is. [00:31:45] And to go, what questions do I need to ask someone to where [00:31:50] their own answers articulate for themselves [00:31:55] why the thing they’re gonna get from us is worth more than what they’re [00:32:00] gonna pay us to get it. Mm-hmm. Or. Asking questions that help them articulate for [00:32:05] themselves why the thing they’re gonna get from us is, is going to save them [00:32:10] more headaches and pain than what they’re gonna have to pay us to, to, to [00:32:15] save that pain.

Mm-hmm. And if you understand that, then you understand [00:32:20] selling. Yeah. If you don’t understand that, I don’t care what scripture you’re using, what [00:32:25] questions, what magical talk tracks you think you have, like it, it’s not [00:32:30] gonna work. Mm-hmm. All of the tactics are based in, it’s, it’s a [00:32:35] teeter-totter, right?

Mm-hmm. It’s like, which is what is more valuable, what I’m gonna get [00:32:40] or what do I have to pay? And so the tactics all I think stem around that. [00:32:45] Yeah. You know, it’s interesting as, uh, to that the best, like, and I [00:32:50] said earlier, like, I love being the prospect. I love being the consumer when it’s a great [00:32:55] sales presentation, but the best sales presentation.

[00:33:00] That the best, best presentations that ever happen, I’ve already made my decision to buy [00:33:05] before they ever started presenting. Totally. Right. And it’s like we live in a world where I’m [00:33:10] not learning about you for the first time on this phone call. Like that’s not actually [00:33:15] what’s happening. Right. If I have come to you, it’s ’cause I’ve been doing research.

Mm-hmm. I heard about you from a trusted [00:33:20] resource. I’ve already done a little bit of my investigation and I think sometimes, and that’s [00:33:25] marketing. Marketing is all that pre-work. Yeah. The pre fluence. Yeah. Um, but it’s like [00:33:30] I’ve already established I have a problem or a desire and I need support. I need help.[00:33:35]

And if I’m on the phone with you, if I’m willing to give you my time, that means I’m already semi [00:33:40] sold. I just need to verify that you are who you are, say you are, you do what I think you [00:33:45] do and I can afford it. And I think that we miss that too. And we get into these [00:33:50] sales conversations as if they don’t know anything about us.

Mm-hmm. And it’s like, I think that’s [00:33:55] a rarity. I think most people are not getting on your calendar today if they [00:34:00] don’t know a little bit about you because it’s so easy too. Totally. And they’re not. They’re [00:34:05] not buying because they know about you. They’re buying because they have a problem and they think you [00:34:10] can help them.

And all that matters is can you help them or not? Like they don’t need to know your company history. They don’t need to know how many [00:34:15] employees you have. They don’t care how many customers you have. They only care about one thing. Can you solve this [00:34:20] problem for me? And if you can. I can afford it, then we got a [00:34:25] deal.

But I think that’s a lot of people, they, they skip through that and they’re asking questions that [00:34:30] don’t matter. Yes. They’re talking about things that don’t matter. Um, they think [00:34:35] rapport building is talking about don’t matter how. We both grew up with horses on farms and [00:34:40] we, you know, it’s like, uh, I’m so glad you said this.

This is like the [00:34:45] dumbest thing. It’s like, Hey, let’s talk about the weather and build rapport as if like talking about the weather [00:34:50] is gonna, has anything to do with what we’re doing. Yeah. Like, does that really create trust of like, no, hey, we, we both [00:34:55] like the Tennessee Titans, you should buy from me. Like, like give me all your personal [00:35:00] information.

We like the same team. Yeah. I, but that happens a lot. Like, I think people really confuse [00:35:05] what is rapport building? Uh, rapport building is where you’re actually establishing [00:35:10] trust. Yes. And trust happens When you’re talking about problems that [00:35:15] you have that I can solve, we’re talking about real needs, not surface [00:35:20] level.

Where’d you grow up? You know, I don’t know where that accent came from, but I like it. Like [00:35:25] where, love that southern accent. I love when it comes out. Like that’s the best, but that’s, let’s talk [00:35:30] about rapport building. It’s not, it’s not like, and I even mentioned this earlier, [00:35:35] like one of the first questions you asked is, how did you hear about us?

That has a specific intention [00:35:40] behind it. What I really wanna know is, uh, what ch what lead channel, right? So if you [00:35:45] said, Hey, I heard about you on a podcast. Yeah. What podcast? Now I actually already know that [00:35:50] because you already put it on your application. Right? We already tracked it in our market. I already know that.

So why would I bring it up? [00:35:55] Right? And it’s because I am leading them into a conversation where I already [00:36:00] know where it’s going. Right? I already know they heard us about, you know, this podcast from this [00:36:05] person. But what I really wanna know is, well, how long have you been following that person? Right? [00:36:10] I’m asking because I’m trying to figure out what level of trust existed.

With what [00:36:15] you just heard and learned about us. And if they go, you know what? I’ve never listened to that podcast before. It was just this [00:36:20] random episode. Well then I know like there’s not a lot of weight there, right? But if [00:36:25] they’re going, oh man, I’ve been listening to that podcast for 10 years. I do everything they [00:36:30] recommend, then I know it’s like, oh, there’s a high level of trust there.

And I wanna know, well what, what [00:36:35] was it about this particular episode that stuck out to you? Hmm. Right? So it’s like I’m [00:36:40] establishing like, what was the trigger point? What was said that that made you go, [00:36:45] huh, I’m gonna track down that link, fill out that application and get a call on [00:36:50] those, those people’s account.

That’s also a relationship you have in common, which I think is really, really, [00:36:55] that’s rapport building, is trust building is relationships in both that versus Oh, that’s so cool. I love that [00:37:00] podcast too. Check mark, question, ask, moving on. It’s like, why are you asking the question? [00:37:05] If you don’t know why you’re asking the question, then don’t ask it.

And I think the real [00:37:10] rapport is, like you said, it’s digging into. What is their dream? [00:37:15] What is their vision? What is the thing they want in their life [00:37:20] compared to where they’re at right now? Mm-hmm. We call that the gap in our, in our curriculum, we just call [00:37:25] that the gap. It’s like, that’s the sale. It’s what do they want versus [00:37:30] where are they now?

If there’s a gap that you, that they have articulated, [00:37:35] there’s an opportunity for a sale. Yep. If you don’t ar, if they don’t, if you don’t get them to [00:37:40] articulate that gap, there is no chance of the sale. But it’s like, it’s not, ’cause I’m asking you about the weather, it’s [00:37:45] because you’re telling me about your hopes, your dreams, your passions, the things you care about, and your telling [00:37:50] me about your struggles and the pain and the problems, which is how you do [00:37:55] real life with people.

Like surface level conversations are things you do with [00:38:00] strangers. Oh, where are you from? What do you do for a living? When you have conversations with family, [00:38:05] it’s like, what’s going on in your life? Like, what are you struggling with? Like, what’s breaking your heart? What’s, [00:38:10] why is your day so hard? That’s where real relationship [00:38:15] happens is in the meaningful conversations about our dreams and ambitions and our [00:38:20] pain and our problems.

And if they’re, this is one of the things that we say all the time, right? [00:38:25] You are selling when they are talking. Yep. Specifically when they are [00:38:30] talking about their hopes and dreams and their pains and their problems. That [00:38:35] is how and when real relationship, I feel like is, is being [00:38:40] built. Yeah, totally. And I think one of the things I would just, uh, add to that is [00:38:45] now I’ve been doing sales for a long time, you know, spent the first 13 years [00:38:50] auditing sales team, sales companies.

And one of the things that I see all the [00:38:55] time is, uh, distracted. Listening, and it’s like we’re going through [00:39:00] the motions of ask the question, get the answer, ask the next thing. Mm-hmm. And one of the, you mean on the behalf of the [00:39:05] salesperson? On the behalf of the salesperson. Yeah. And like, one of the things that I just wanted to really strongly comment [00:39:10] on to this gap, if you’re not actively listening, you never hear the gap.

[00:39:15] Totally. You miss the gap, right? This whole idea of like, Hey, I’m, I’m doing the sales call and checking [00:39:20] emails or trying to respond to dms. I’m like, this person, I just, for [00:39:25] context, I just, I wanna rewind. It’s like this person is actually telling you their life’s dreams, [00:39:30] which they have maybe never articulated to another human being before.

They’re also telling you that [00:39:35] these dreams are not happening at the speed or the rate or at the velocity, like [00:39:40] whatever it is that they want. Um, they’re struggling. They’re sitting here telling you, [00:39:45] I have this dream and I don’t know what to do. And you’re there [00:39:50] multitasking, making copy, checking emails.

WWK Ep #003: Why They Killed the Downline: The Truth About Affiliate Marketing, AI, and the End of Direct Sales as We Know It

Rory: [00:00:00] Sales to me is the ultimate level playing field. I didn’t grow up with a lot of money, [00:00:05] didn’t have Ivy League connections, and didn’t grow up with powerful relationships with [00:00:10] people who were high up in companies. But it was like sales is this thing that goes like, I don’t care if you got [00:00:15] your degree from Harvard, or if you dropped outta school.

Can you knock on a [00:00:20] door? Can you overcome rejection? Yeah. Can you build a relationship? Can you add trust? Can you add [00:00:25] value? Can you follow up? Can you stay in touch? Do you have a good product? It’s like, I don’t care about your pedigree. I don’t care [00:00:30] about your, you know, connections. It’s like, it, it’s really you as a person.

AJ: It’s the whole concept of your [00:00:35] reputation precedes you. And in this case, it better. Right.[00:00:40] [00:00:45] [00:00:50]

Hey [00:00:55] y’all. Welcome to this episode of The Wealthy and Well-Known Podcast. [00:01:00] Uh, today we’re gonna be talking about an interesting topic, uh, something to do with [00:01:05] micro entrepreneurs, what a lot of people would maybe refer to as direct sales. [00:01:10] Uh, or, you know, a side hustle. But I think it’s a really important thing to start this [00:01:15] conversation with what is direct sales, because it’s really different than affiliate marketing, and it’s [00:01:20] really different from the old school MLM model.

But I, this is what we would call [00:01:25] in today’s market, the micro entrepreneur or the micro influencer. And [00:01:30] so that’s where we wanna start today, is how does personal branding help you [00:01:35] indirect sales as a micro. Influencer, a micro entrepreneur, and, uh, [00:01:40] specifically what is direct sales, so we know exactly who we’re talking to.[00:01:45]

Rory: This is a, this is a topic that’s near and dear to my heart. Uh, for those of you that don’t [00:01:50] know my story, I was raised in direct sales. My, my mama, my single [00:01:55] mama sold Mary Kay Cosmetics when I was a kid. And so I grew up going to those [00:02:00] meetings. Um, and then when I was in college, I went door to door for five years, five [00:02:05] summers, and was in a network marketing company.

Was a recruiter, a top sales [00:02:10] person, and, um. I have sort of just grown up around the industry, and this is well [00:02:15] hold. I

AJ: wanna pause really quickly because you aren’t just a, a recruiter. You are the [00:02:20] all time 150 year record holder of [00:02:25] recruiting, recruited the largest teams of a direct sales. [00:02:30] Marketing company.

Thank you, babe.

Rory: You’re, you’re, you’re making me blush honey. You’re making blush. Well, I think it’s a big

AJ: deal. Like [00:02:35] they actually had you as a college student, travel around the country teaching other [00:02:40] student managers how to build organizations like you did. Like 150 [00:02:45] years is a long time to be the all time record holder for recruiting is no small feat.

So let’s [00:02:50] not skim over that. Like you don’t have experience in the space.

Rory: Well, thank [00:02:55] you. Yeah. I, I just, this is, it is, it’s an important, it’s, it’s near and dear to my heart and I [00:03:00] think in many ways. I think of direct sales as true sales, [00:03:05] real sales, where you are prospecting human to human [00:03:10] and like building relationships.

It’s

AJ: interesting though, but is direct steel sales still [00:03:15] happening that way today?

Rory: No less of it. I mean, I, I think that’s what we’re gonna talk about is [00:03:20] go, you know, how’s it different? And I, I think that’s an interesting topic even to start is [00:03:25] what’s the difference between direct sales? Affiliate marketing, network [00:03:30] marketing, personal branding.

Mm-hmm. You know, it’s, there’s a sort of a weird amalgamation [00:03:35] of all all of these things coming together

AJ: and we’re seeing a lot of direct sales [00:03:40] companies transition. Two more of affiliate marketing [00:03:45] organizations. There’s been a lot of disruption, uh, in the industry the last few years as [00:03:50] a lot of traditional direct sales companies are no longer a direct sales [00:03:55] model and have moved to a.

More affiliate marketing affiliate

Rory: model. Yeah, I was, I was just, I was just [00:04:00] speaking at an event for, uh, direct selling news, direct selling university, and they were sharing a [00:04:05] lot of the data of what’s going on in the industry. There’s a, there is, there has been a lot of [00:04:10] consolidation in, in the industry.

Um, part of what they were saying is like, the [00:04:15] headlines are dominated by some of those, but a, you know, in many ways the industry [00:04:20] still. Is what it has always been. And, but they were showing how, you know, some of the [00:04:25] companies, I, I’d say, you know, most famously, like Rodan Fields, um, [00:04:30] Beachbody, you know, which is now just body, they, they, they have kind of [00:04:35] adapted or adopted to an affiliate marketing model where, and I think the difference here for people who [00:04:40] are just listening is, is going.

Direct sales is anything where you [00:04:45] have a, a sales person selling a, a product direct to consumers. [00:04:50] It’s like the individual person is conducting that [00:04:55] transaction. Um, I think network marketing is where I get [00:05:00] paid on the sales of people that are. In as part of my organization. And [00:05:05] then affiliate marketing is more like digital marketing where I’m just sharing a link.

And so [00:05:10] some of these companies moved from like a true network marketing model to, to more of [00:05:15] an affiliate marketing model where they’re just selling links, but they don’t have the downlines of like Yeah, the multi-level, [00:05:20] the multi-level, the multi-level part of it. Um. And, um, I

AJ: think it’d be [00:05:25] worthwhile, um, to talk about like why this shift, why the trend to [00:05:30] affiliate marketing for some of these larger organizations, and what does that mean across the [00:05:35] board?

Compared to some of the other information and other research that we’ve [00:05:40] learned from other thought leaders in this space of how you can barely [00:05:45] make a living on affiliate marketing today. It’s like you have to have such a big following [00:05:50] and still so very few people see it, uh, that it’s like. What [00:05:55] used to you would get paid thousands or even a hundred dollars for a post.

You’re now getting pennies on the [00:06:00] dollars. So there’s been also conversation that would go, why would they [00:06:05] transition to this if this is what’s really happening in this space? So I think there’s the dichotomy of [00:06:10] why are people moving to this. When you hear this counter argument of it’s [00:06:15] almost impossible for a normal individual to make any money in that.

Rory: Yeah, I mean, I don’t [00:06:20] know exactly why they do it, right? Every company is different and everybody who, you know, buys and investors, they [00:06:25] do this sort of thing. But I think the general thought process is, as a company, we will become more [00:06:30] profitable if. We don’t have so many layers of payouts like we’ve had in [00:06:35] network marketing.

So I don’t, I don’t think their goal is to help people make more money, and that’s just kind of [00:06:40] evidenced by the fact that some of these companies basically like let their entire field force kind of [00:06:45] go overnight effectively, or they transitioned, you know, very quickly to, to a model [00:06:50] to where it’s like, Hey, we’ll still pay you to sell our product, but we’re not gonna pay you on.

The, [00:06:55] the, the downline of everyone you’ve recruited and built in. And I think, you know, [00:07:00] there’s some pain around that. There’s controversy around it. As somebody who owns a business, you know, [00:07:05] there’s an argument to go like, well, if it’s more profitable, and you know, maybe there’s reasons that we do that. But I think [00:07:10] there’s also influencer marketing, which is part of this conversation, which I think is really what you’re talking [00:07:15] about too, is going, affiliate marketing is.

I give a link and I [00:07:20] get paid a percentage of those sales or a flat fee per sale. A influencer [00:07:25] marketing is more like. I get paid from the platforms per thousand [00:07:30] views, um, or brands show up and they pay me. And now that everybody is a [00:07:35] creator, I think the supply has gone through the roof and the demand [00:07:40] isn’t necessarily gone with it because I don’t know that brands are always seeing [00:07:45] directly attributable, attributable results to like.

Just like brand deal marketing. [00:07:50] So there’s a lot of it. There’s all, there’s still people being successful in affiliate marketing, network marketing, direct [00:07:55] sales, uh, you know, in influencer marketing, but. It [00:08:00] begs the conversation of what is happening here and, and what’s the right [00:08:05] mix for me as an individual and for us as an organization.

I mean, I, I’d be curious [00:08:10] how some of those things and topics have shaped your philosophy about what we do at Brand Builders [00:08:15] Group. Mm-hmm. In terms of the type of marketing and payouts that, that we provide. ’cause I think we’re [00:08:20] kind of pioneering and innovating in some ways in that regard. So like, how do you process [00:08:25] all of this going on as a CEO in terms of.

What we can be doing to, to drive leads.

AJ: Yeah. And I [00:08:30] think that’s not just, uh, pertinent to brand builders group, but for any business [00:08:35] who’s going, okay. Like, uh, and I think you could even throw in the emergence [00:08:40] of AI and technology into all of this, of going, wow. Like, do I [00:08:45] really need all these people anymore?

And I think that’s a lot of the thing that’s happening with [00:08:50] some of the dissolution of these direct sales models at the multi-level, uh, [00:08:55] impact to an affiliate where it’s like, yeah, you brought these hundreds or [00:09:00] thousand, you know, for some people, thousands of people, organizations, and now all that work [00:09:05] you did is now ours.

I’ll pay you direct, but not for any of the work in recruiting [00:09:10] or leading or training or building. And I, uh, you know, not to cast [00:09:15] shade anywhere ’cause I don’t know the inner workings of any of these companies, but I do [00:09:20] find that that’s a profit first approach, not a people first approach. And [00:09:25] those are, those are, those get to be harder and bigger conversations the bigger that you get.[00:09:30]

Um, but those are real lives with years of history helping those [00:09:35] organizations build and for that to just go away, it, it’s a hard pill to [00:09:40] swallow. I think speaking as a business owner of going. Our philosophy [00:09:45] around ai, which we, we recorded an episode here lately on this, is like, we’re [00:09:50] not trying to have AI replace any position, but we would love it if we didn’t have to keep adding [00:09:55] positions.

But we’re not in a replacement mode. Like, this is not like, Hey, we’re gonna bring in, you know, all [00:10:00] these new things that we don’t need to have, we don’t have to have as many people anymore, and we’ll be more [00:10:05] profitable. It’s like, why can’t it be both? Like why can’t we, you know, serve our [00:10:10] team and also make more profit?

Right. Doesn’t. Can it be both? [00:10:15] Does it not need to be both? And I think that’s where I kind of get stuck in the middle [00:10:20] of more people, more problems. Right. And that’s more clients [00:10:25] or more team members? More problems. But that’s also a, a decided choice of [00:10:30] going like, no, it’s like, yeah, like we’re humans.

There’s. There’s [00:10:35] the, there’s the potential for greater success or greater failure, the bigger you get. [00:10:40] And I think removing the human elements, in my opinion, is always a little dangerous. [00:10:45] And so that’s, I, I think for me it’s a people conversation [00:10:50] dilemma where. You know, we’ve seen all over the news with big corporations doing massive [00:10:55] thousand person layoffs with ai.

You’ve see a lot of these, you know, [00:11:00] companies that are removing all these layers of leadership with all the work that’s been done over decades and [00:11:05] replacing it with links. And I, I think, yes, do I see why they’re [00:11:10] doing it on the one hand, sure. Do I know their financials? No. And yeah, those are [00:11:15] real human lives and real human costs that sometimes get left out of the equations.[00:11:20]

I think that’s the hard part of all of this, and I just think there’s an opportunity [00:11:25] to go, how do we do both?

Rory: Yeah. And I think that part of that has all been a catalyst to [00:11:30] particularly, I think, the direct sales industry going okay. Personal branding [00:11:35] matters a lot because people, I think there’s a few macro sort of [00:11:40] economic trends happening.

One is in general, power is shifting from corporate brands [00:11:45] and corporate media conglomerates to individual people, right? We’re not loyal [00:11:50] to the company, we’re loyal to a person. We don’t trust the company. We trust the person. Mm-hmm. And so. I [00:11:55] think that has happened. The other thing is, so just as a marketing, [00:12:00] uh, channel, personal branding is really important to everybody, every type [00:12:05] of business and every, every business model.

But I also think particularly in this [00:12:10] sort of direct sales industry, that for the people who spent [00:12:15] decades of their life building a field force that was. [00:12:20] Something that they treated like their own business, but on paper was never actually their own businesses [00:12:25] owned by an organization. I think certainly there is the backlash of feeling burnt and [00:12:30] like, you know, I poured my whole heart and soul into this and now you just take it away from me.[00:12:35]

I think that also becomes a catalyst for people to build their personal brand to go. Mm-hmm. Now I’m gonna build my [00:12:40] own audience, I’m gonna own my own audience, I’m gonna have my own database. I’m [00:12:45] gonna, um. Be in control of like my own business, even if [00:12:50] I’m selling someone else’s product, it’s like the customers stay with me because I’m the [00:12:55] person building it.

So

AJ: yeah, the trust lies with the trust

Rory: lies with me. And, and now the technology [00:13:00] exists for me to manage that versus turn all that those customers over to somebody else. So I think, [00:13:05] you know, it’s a weird relationship that, and, and, and a lot of dynamics, like you throw AI [00:13:10] in there that, that are going on.

But I think for everybody to go. Whether you’re a [00:13:15] business, you’re a big business, you’re a small business, you’re a creator, you’re affiliate marketer, [00:13:20] you go, all of us are building our own audience. Mm-hmm. [00:13:25] And we’re building trust. And the trust must always take place before there’s a transaction. [00:13:30] And now the power lies in the individuals and the [00:13:35] technology and the tools are available to, to, to bring, for you, to own your own audience.

And that is [00:13:40] something that. I think everybody should want to do and and pay [00:13:45] attention to because whether your company [00:13:50] changes its model or you own your business and your business goes outta business, or you get replaced [00:13:55] by a competitor, the fact that you own your audience is really important. Mm-hmm.

And you can take your [00:14:00] audience with you. So I think that’s what makes this conversation. Interesting and, and super [00:14:05] relevant for direct sales and really for anybody who’s in any type of marketing or or sales. [00:14:10] Um,

AJ: so I have a question for you about that because I think there’s been, you know, [00:14:15] probably a 15 year shift.

You know, you take it back 15 years ago and you [00:14:20] look at the direct sales space. And I can think about like on a monthly [00:14:25] basis what type of home party I was getting invited to. Mm-hmm. It was a Pampered Chef party. It was a [00:14:30] Rodan and Fields party, uh, you know,

Rory: wine. There was wine tastings. Yeah. There’s been all sorts of party [00:14:35] planning.

Tupperware was back in the day, Mary Kay. There was the wild

AJ: tree, there was the food company. It doesn’t exist [00:14:40] anymore, but it was like all the time. And over the course of the last 15 years, they got [00:14:45] completely away from that all together. Mm-hmm. It kind of went [00:14:50] all digital, all online, but now COVID

Rory: accelerated that.

AJ: COVID [00:14:55] accelerated that for sure. But now even with some of the most explosive growth, [00:15:00] what I would say, you know, direct sales companies or affiliate marketing companies, I think [00:15:05] about like the faster way to weight loss. I think about even some of the nonprofits like. [00:15:10] They’re finding ways of doing in-person events again.

Hmm. Um, like I was just thinking about [00:15:15] faster way to weight loss because I’m on their text blast I guess from years ago, and [00:15:20] it’s like coming to Nashville for National Legs Day hosting something at, you know, [00:15:25] Opryland. And it’s like now, like there’s some of that kind of coming back in a mass community [00:15:30] appeal.

And what I would just like to hear your opinion on, like why did we get [00:15:35] away from all of that and. Have you seen, have you heard about some of that [00:15:40] reemerging? I was thinking about another company that we had on the podcast a couple years ago, Hugh and Grace.

Rory: Hmm. [00:15:45]

AJ: And they were, you know, it’s a, a hormone free, you know, cleaning line [00:15:50] and supplements and vitamins and.

But they were like, no, we want to reimagine what [00:15:55] it’s like to have a home party. And it’s more of an event and an, it’s an experience. It’s something that [00:16:00] you wanna go to, not to get sold, but for learning and education and networking. And they were really trying [00:16:05] to reimagine, uh, what it was like to host the old school, you know, [00:16:10] home parties.

And then I hear about like all these other events that are happening of like, Hey, everyone come [00:16:15] in for National Leg Day. And you know, you even hear about like charities, like Charity Water, doing the [00:16:20] immersive experiences. It’s like, Hey, the online thing just isn’t working anymore. There’s too much noise, there’s [00:16:25] too much clutter.

I gotta get people in real life immersive experiences [00:16:30] experiencing what we do again. So have you seen that? That’s. [00:16:35] Coming back.

Rory: I feel like that I, I feel like COVID accelerated us towards a [00:16:40] digital environment and ironically, I feel like AI is accelerating [00:16:45] us back towards an analog environment because you go, if AI can do all [00:16:50] the stuff, then what do we do?

What matters? Community. Yeah. [00:16:55] Relationships, emotions, and, and that lends itself to in-person [00:17:00] experiences. And I think, you know, if even at Brand Builders group we have. [00:17:05] Wrestled in that pendulum has swung back and forth about how much in person do we do versus how much per how much, uh, [00:17:10] virtual and also how much live do we do versus how much prerecorded, and we’ve [00:17:15] skewed heavily into both live.

Even virtual stuff is like our members. It’s live. It’s live. [00:17:20] I mean, how many live virtual events do we have like in our, in. Entry level [00:17:25] program. It’s, it’s, it’s like one a more than one a month, isn’t it? Yeah. In our

AJ: entry level program, there’s seven virtual [00:17:30] training calls you can attend, and then one every

Rory: month.

AJ: Every month. And

Rory: those are hours. So seven one [00:17:35] hour live

AJ: plus a full day live virtual event.

Rory: A full day, at least one a month.

AJ: [00:17:40] Every month.

Rory: Every single month. Yeah. And then our in-person events, I mean, 16 a [00:17:45] year, we have

AJ: 16 in-person events and an additional 24 live interactive workshops. [00:17:50] For our pro members.

Yes,

Rory: we do

AJ: a lot of events.

Rory: A lot of events. Turns out, so, [00:17:55] and I think you go, I mean, if, if I apply all this lens of what’s happening to us, I [00:18:00] think you go. The future is not about selling information and when we [00:18:05] put this in, in the book, right? Uh, people don’t pay for information. They pay for organization and [00:18:10] application.

I think that continues to be true, but I also think the next evolution of that is like people pay for [00:18:15] application and they also pay for community. Mm-hmm. They pay to be, I want to be, I wanna find my [00:18:20] people. I want to have in-person experiences. I wanna be in an environment where I feel supported and [00:18:25] cheered on.

I think, you know, we’re leaning so heavily into helping people get on each other’s podcasts and [00:18:30] helping them share speaking opportunities and, and doing client referrals [00:18:35] because it’s like that’s the part that AI can’t replace the relationships. Mm-hmm. [00:18:40] So, you know, if we were building a direct sales company, I would be leaning [00:18:45] heavily into that.

You know, anecdotally, I think some are doing that. [00:18:50] Um. Some of the other ones are moving away towards just like more towards social selling the, the affiliate thing. [00:18:55] Now, when I saw, uh, Stuart Johnson did a presentation, so he’s the, he’s the owner of Direct Selling News and [00:19:00] he had this very, very data rich presentation on what’s happening in the world of direct [00:19:05] selling.

He was showing, um. The data behind some of those companies that switched [00:19:10] to affiliate marketing and direct sales. And while they maybe have become more [00:19:15] profitable, nobody knows, always, many of them are privately held, their revenue has [00:19:20] gone down tremendously. Um, and part of that makes sense. You know, you let all these people [00:19:25] go and they all go run off and they go to a different direct sales company or whatever, but, um.[00:19:30]

You know, there, you lose that bond, you lose that comradery. And I think [00:19:35] direct sales, what, what has made direct sales, again, going all the way back to my mom, it [00:19:40] was like community. It was community. It was being around women who made her feel beautiful [00:19:45] and she could help them feel beautiful I, and supported and important, and it was like, [00:19:50]

AJ: mm-hmm.

Rory: Part of why I have such a passion for direct selling is [00:19:55] because. The product isn’t the product, the industry is the product. Yeah, I

AJ: was gonna say it’s the common [00:20:00] experience of all of that.

Rory: And it’s personal development. I mean, direct [00:20:05] sales is basically a way to monetize personal development. And so it’s learning

AJ: goal [00:20:10] setting time, manage management and leading and time management productivity.

Rory: And you go and, and [00:20:15] the other reason I’ve always loved direct sales is, and sales in general mm-hmm. Is [00:20:20] sales to me is the ultimate level playing field. Mm-hmm. And you know, I. We didn’t grow up with a [00:20:25] lot of money. You know, didn’t, didn’t have Ivy League connections and didn’t grow up with [00:20:30] powerful relationships with people who were high up in companies.

But it was like [00:20:35] sales is this thing that goes like, I don’t care if you got your degree from Harvard. Mm-hmm. Or if you [00:20:40] dropped outta school.

Both: Mm-hmm.

Rory: Can you knock on a door? Can you overcome rejection? Yeah. Can you build a [00:20:45] relationship? Can you add trust? Can you add value? Can you follow up? Can you stay in touch?

Do you have a good [00:20:50] product? It’s like, I don’t care about your pedigree. I don’t care about your. Connections. It’s like it’s [00:20:55] really you as a person. And I’ve always loved that. And, um, you know, I [00:21:00] told this to that audience when I was speaking a few weeks ago. I said, you know, when [00:21:05] you and I started, we really were like building a speaking [00:21:10] career.

And, you know, we were building a coaching company, consulting company, speaking. We learned [00:21:15] personal branding for ourselves, being speakers, authors, coaches, consultants. [00:21:20] I never would’ve thought. When we were learning all of that 20 years ago. [00:21:25] You would fast forward to now and you go, no. Personal branding is not just for [00:21:30] experts, it’s for all professional service providers.

It’s for anyone with any type of field [00:21:35] sales force. Mm-hmm. And especially direct sales. Absolutely. And [00:21:40] net and network marketing,

AJ: it’s the whole concept of your reputation precedes you. And in [00:21:45] this case, it better. Right? It’s like it, you need to be the person that’s like, oh, let [00:21:50] me introduce you too. Right, and I think that’s a, that is a really important thing for sales in [00:21:55] general, right?

You wanna be the first person that someone thinks of when they think of what [00:22:00] you sell, because that’s how you get referrals. That’s how you get word of mouth customers. That’s the difference [00:22:05] of being a megaphone versus a magnet, right? Are you just out there, hustle, hustle, hustle? Or [00:22:10] are you actually attracting people into you because you have built a strong community, [00:22:15] you deliver good service, you have a good product, you stay in touch with people, you [00:22:20] have community.

Right. And that is a lot of how you build that regardless of what [00:22:25] kind of sales you’re in. That’s just sales.

Rory: But, but yeah. And, but it’s like the in [00:22:30] direct sales, the money they pay to the field force. Historically, [00:22:35] the network marketing, right. All these organizational downlines is money they didn’t [00:22:40] spend on corporate advertising.

Marketing, yeah. And marketing. So. Direct sales has [00:22:45] always been like the purest, truest form of like, if you’re buying, you’re buying because of me, me.

AJ: [00:22:50] Mm-hmm.

Rory: My re my reputation, your trust with me,

AJ: my effort, my outreach.

Rory: [00:22:55] Yes. You’re not buying ’cause it’s like, oh, I’ve seen that product on, uh, the Super Bowl [00:23:00] commercial or the ads.

Um. So, you know, it would be interesting to see the, the, [00:23:05] the direct sales companies that are shifting away from the field force. Are they pouring more [00:23:10] into advertising now? You know, I think it’s, you know, companies like Beachbody and Rodan and Fields in [00:23:15] particular, they had done a great job of that. Rodan and Fields had already.

Already had [00:23:20] a very established brand. Yeah. You know, body, which was previously Beachbody had the whole nine, uh, P [00:23:25] 90 X movement and all that kind of stuff. So they, they had a lot of brand equity that was [00:23:30] outside their, their field force. Um, but for anybody listening, you [00:23:35] know, the thing that I think applies to all of us is how do I own my own audience?

How do I build [00:23:40] trust? And then. What type of transactions am I creating? Mm-hmm. [00:23:45] Am I gonna sell my own products and services? Um, and this goes to the [00:23:50] paid that we teach in the, in, in the book, um, in the monetization strategy chapter, which is your [00:23:55] chapter. Yeah. Why don’t you do a quick, well quick review of the page.

AJ: Paids are products. Those are [00:24:00] tangible things that you can touch. Hold, right? Those are your widgets, uh, those are your items. Then you’ve got [00:24:05] ads and affiliates, right? You gotta have a big enough platform, a big enough audience where someone is [00:24:10] paying you money to get access and exposure to your audience.

Mm-hmm. Then you have [00:24:15] information. Right. So I would say, uh, information be courses that could be [00:24:20] eBooks, it’s uh, anything, membership

Rory: certifications, [00:24:25] assessments, all that kind stuff. Stuff. Totally.

AJ: Um, then you have deals, right? So that could be book deals, that could be [00:24:30] sponsorship deals, uh, that could be different brand deals.

But you’re getting paid because again, [00:24:35] your platform, your audience, your notoriety. You already have an established personal brand that doesn’t [00:24:40] technically happen if you don’t have something already established. And then you’ve got services, which [00:24:45] is the most common, the most popular and the most pervasive of all of them, which is [00:24:50] anything that’s in the service business.

We would fit in services, all professional services, uh, [00:24:55] anything that you can think of from attorneys to doctors, to financial services, to [00:25:00] insurance, to real estate to mortgage to. Coaching, consulting, those are all services. [00:25:05] So that’s a quick recap of paid.

Rory: And I think in, in direct sales, you used to say, [00:25:10] okay, even before social media, if we said a personal brand is a reputation.

Okay. It [00:25:15] was very clear. I, I, my mom worked for Mary Kay. She sold a physical product. Yeah, [00:25:20] right. She was in that key category. All direct sales

AJ: almost are all physical products

Rory: almost [00:25:25] entirely, almost. And they’re, a lot of ’em are in the health in beauty space. [00:25:30] Supplements

AJ: Avatar woman.

Rory: Yeah. Yes. Um, and, and, [00:25:35] and when, what the shift that has happened is you’re going, oh, well now they’re moving [00:25:40] more into affiliates, where they’re going, okay, I’m just giving out affiliate links.

Which shifts the model to where you [00:25:45] go all if I am, you know, like if, if my mom were selling this today, [00:25:50] if all she has is links mm-hmm. She actually. The company is less [00:25:55] loyal to her and she also is less loyal to the company because

AJ: she could have links for lots of people,

Rory: beauty [00:26:00] Counter, and she could have links.

She could be selling Rodan and Fields and Mary Kay. Now, some of the direct sales [00:26:05] companies are, I disallow that, disallow, that post,

AJ: disallow that.

Rory: But um, there’s this woman that spoke at the [00:26:10] conference. Her name was Heather. I wish I could remember her last name, I think maybe Frazier. But she said, you [00:26:15] know, in direct sales.

Brand loyalty is still alive, but brand [00:26:20] monogamy is dead. Mm. And so what she was the, the point that she was making, which I thought was [00:26:25] really good, was she was like, Hey, if you’re not all in on them, they’re not gonna be all in on you. And [00:26:30] don’t expect them to be, because if it’s an affiliate model, they can also affiliate [00:26:35] for Brand Builders group.

They can affiliate for some other nutrition line there. You

AJ: could get. [00:26:40] You could fill, its everything. Blanket,

Rory: blankets and whatever. Like, and, and, and that’s [00:26:45] also the shift that’s happened was I was the Mary Kay lady and now [00:26:50] I’m a lifestyle influencers. But that’s problem for everything and

AJ: pretty much against everything that [00:26:55] we teach and believe in when it comes down to how do you break through she hands, walls.

Exactly. [00:27:00] Which is you become known for one thing. You don’t wanna be a jack of all trades, you wanna be a Dr. Jack of [00:27:05] one trade and. That’s a problem.

Rory: So that’s, so that was

AJ: dilution?

Rory: Yes. [00:27:10] And that’s what I said on stage. I said, the problem here is you got an industry and a whole [00:27:15] culture that’s moving. That’s problem.

That’s a towards telling people like, Hey, have multiple streams of income, have a [00:27:20] bunch of these affiliate links. But you and I know, and the data is super strong that the [00:27:25] way you get rich is not from multiple streams of income, one. From one amazing stream of [00:27:30] income, you do one thing really well. And so I do see that as a, as a problem.

Just take

AJ: this [00:27:35] out of the direct sales space for a second. I just want everyone to think about this. Like, what [00:27:40] if you were talking to your financial advisor and all of a sudden he was like, Hey, just so you know, [00:27:45] I’ve started selling cars. Uh, would you wanna go to the, the lot and see some cars?

Rory: Such a [00:27:50] good example?

Or

AJ: what if he was like, you know what, I’ve also, I’ve started a, a healthcare line, [00:27:55] really love to show you my supplements. I’d be like, what are you doing now? I don’t wanna [00:28:00] learn about your cars and supplements. I thought we were talking about my finances.

Rory: Yeah,

AJ: just like a [00:28:05] ra. Imagine in real life

Rory: if your doctor was suddenly like, you know, teaching softball [00:28:10] lessons all, all the time on the side.

Like,

AJ: like

Rory: what, what? [00:28:15] Professionals to be a professional, you study a craft, an

AJ: expert in one thing, you [00:28:20] need to be known for one thing. While that’s a really big potential issue. So I have one quick [00:28:25] question as we wrap into the next segment. If you were starting. [00:28:30] Brand new, fresh in this space of direct sales.

What’s [00:28:35] one thing that you would do today to build brand notoriety to [00:28:40] build this community? Like what would you do today if you were not at Brand Builders group and you’re like, [00:28:45] I’m gonna start over in direct sales, what would be the first thing that you would do to,

Rory: [00:28:50] so it’s a philosophical thing, instead of trying to figure out how I could [00:28:55] pay the least amount of money to people to sell my thing.

I [00:29:00] would figure out how do I pay people the most amount of money with the least amount of effort? Mm-hmm. [00:29:05] Which is exactly what we do at Brand Builders Group. Um, those of you that are watching or listening, you may [00:29:10] not know this, but we have a referral partner program where we pay a 10% lifetime [00:29:15] referral fee and we pay the referral fee to whoever’s the first person that refers someone to [00:29:20] us.

And it’s very transparent across the board, and it’s whoever is the first person that [00:29:25] sends us the lead. To somebody, we pay them and we pay them forever on any of our core [00:29:30] strategy services that someone buys. And people have said, why do you do that? Why don’t you pay the last [00:29:35] person who made the sale?

And it’s like, no, we’re rewarding the person who is out there talking about us [00:29:40] first. And they go, why do you pay forever? And they say, well, one, because we don’t have high [00:29:45] margins, so we can’t pay huge affiliate fees all upfront. And it’s like, I want to [00:29:50] send Lewis Howes checks every month, and Ed Millet and Amy Porterfield, and you know, our top [00:29:55] affiliates, Jenna Kutcher, and these people who have supported us.

I want them to make more money. Why? [00:30:00] Because I want them to think about us and go, they’re gonna redirect traffic. [00:30:05] Now, affiliate in our own model is. Primary revenue stream, [00:30:10] it’s the A and page. So if you said, oh, I am just gonna drive affiliate traffic, that in some [00:30:15] ways is one thing, but you go, I’m not gonna be spending my time creating products and [00:30:20] launching services and managing and building teams to do all these things.

Yeah. I’m a media company [00:30:25] that builds audience and I sell ads and affiliates, and that’s part of what Lewis got really clear on and it’s like, [00:30:30] I want them to to. So I think we’ve done that really well. I [00:30:35] think it’s now people are, it’s, it’s working and people are seeing the evidence of brand builders [00:30:40] group growing because so many people are talking about us, and then more people hear about us, and then they all make money [00:30:45] referring us to people.

And so, in a weird way, I think Brand Builders Group has become a modern [00:30:50] day network marketing through our referral partner program. But you know, we, we [00:30:55] have created that massive passive mailbox money. So [00:31:00] anyways, that’s how we do th we do things, any of our clients can be referral partner. And by the way.[00:31:05]

You, you can, we will pay you to give our audio book away for free. Look at how we [00:31:10] did our book launch. Yeah, we did this. We said you can go to, uh, I think it’s brand [00:31:15] builders group.com/referral partner, and you can [00:31:20] request. Your own affiliate link to give our audio book away [00:31:25] in full for free to your audience.

And then what happens is we tag all those people in our system is coming from [00:31:30] you and if they ever request a call from our team, we do all the selling, all the follow up [00:31:35] deal with all the cash collection, we do everything. All you have to do is give away our book [00:31:40] and we send you money. Massive passive mailbox money forever.

So I think [00:31:45] we’ve done that and I think. You know, you’re asking me the question, what would I would do? I [00:31:50] would do exactly what we have done all over again, which is more of a [00:31:55] philosophy is going, how can I pay people the most amount of money with [00:32:00] the least amount of effort from them as possible? We create, we wrote the book, we created the assets, we did [00:32:05] everything.

AJ: You just gotta share it.

Rory: You just gotta share it. And if you’re gonna move into that model, [00:32:10] I think it’s that. But coming back to what you said earlier, the problem is. People are [00:32:15] making a profit First decision instead of a people first decision. And you know [00:32:20] who’s to say what is right? But I think you and I are aligned on like the people first, and we [00:32:25] believe the profit shows up as a byproduct a

AJ: hundred percent.

Now we are going to [00:32:30] do what we call community questions. This is where a question from our [00:32:35] community gets boated up and we answer the top question from our Brain Builders group community. [00:32:40]

Rory: Today’s question is how do you manage relationships at [00:32:45] scale, but meanwhile making every single person feel valued and important?

And this is the [00:32:50] perfect question for you, because you do this as good as anybody in the world. [00:32:55] You manage so many relationships, and you have a knack for making people still [00:33:00] feel important and valued and special, and showing up. And we were just talking [00:33:05] about this this weekend. So I would love, personally would love to hear your philosophy on this.

AJ: Yeah. You [00:33:10] know, I think a lot of people talk about the techniques and tactics and tips and [00:33:15] schedules and, you know, different programs you can buy of how to stay in [00:33:20] touch and do this many things at this frequency and yes. [00:33:25] Can you do all of that? Have I done a lot of that? Sure. But what I have come to find [00:33:30] as a parent.

And I think this is where I’ve learned this most, is that [00:33:35] quality is better than quantity. And what I have found is that a [00:33:40] few genuine outreaches, a few genuine conversations, [00:33:45] I few really personal touches make up for months of no connection [00:33:50] at all. And I think. What I have found, uh, of what people do for me and [00:33:55] what I do for people is can you and will you be present in life’s [00:34:00] greatest moments and in life’s hardest moments?

Mm. And that’s how you do it at scale. Uh, [00:34:05] I think that I’m a very big firm believer. Jenny Allen talks a lot about this in her book, [00:34:10] find Your People, that it’s almost impossible to have deep, intimate [00:34:15] relationships with more than a few people. Hmm. Because of the amount of time that it takes and [00:34:20] you just don’t have it.

She talks a lot about, I love this book. If you’re, if you’re an [00:34:25] adult trying to figure out how to make friends as an adult, I highly recommend this book. Find Your People by [00:34:30] Jenny Allen and

Rory: all Jenny Allen books she loves. I love her

AJ: avatar. That’s true. [00:34:35] Um, but I love what she talks about is, you know, the concept of proximity is power is [00:34:40] true for deep, meaningful, intimate relationships.

And that’s not meant to be done at [00:34:45] scale. Mm. It’s really not. And she goes, if you’re not randomly running into someone at [00:34:50] church, at school, at the grocery store, you cannot do life together. And that’s [00:34:55] true, but that doesn’t mean that you can’t love. People serve people and be there [00:35:00] for people, but as your, you know, the volume grows in your relationships and in your [00:35:05] community, how do you keep that authentic connection alive at scale?

What I have found [00:35:10] for me, what people do for me and what I do for people, is that you show up to celebrate [00:35:15] the mountaintop moments. You were most certainly there for the value moments, [00:35:20] and that makes up for months or years of little to no connection at [00:35:25] all because it’s not surface level. It’s there to celebrate the [00:35:30] things that happen once in a lifetime.

It’s babies, it’s weddings, it’s [00:35:35] uh, book launches, it’s product launches, it’s sales of businesses, it’s [00:35:40] graduations, it’s life’s biggest moments that everyone was like, thank you for being there. And it’s [00:35:45] also life’s hardest moments. When there was a death or a sickness or an illness or, [00:35:50] um, a disaster or a business failing or, you know, a mental health [00:35:55] challenge of also showing up in those moments of like, they’re like, and you were there too.[00:36:00]

And I have found that being there for life’s biggest and hardest moments is [00:36:05] how you stay connected at scale. It’s not in the everyday, hey, just, you know, [00:36:10] it’s been six months, wanted to see how you were doing. Um, it’s no like, you show up for the things [00:36:15] that count. You show up in the valleys and you show up on the mountaintops.

Rory: Mm-hmm. [00:36:20] I’m not the best to answer this question. I don’t think I, I do a, a particularly great job at it, [00:36:25] but I do watch you do it and as you’re talking, there’s like a little framework coming to, to head for [00:36:30] me of going, you celebrate, you commiserate. The other thing I think you [00:36:35] do is you commemorate. Mm Uh, I remember when I very first launched, like, take [00:36:40] the stairs.

You got me like pen. Yeah. That said take the stairs. And it [00:36:45] was technically,

AJ: I got you. Pens, notepads, pens, not pads. Popping mugs, pads, Uhhuh magnet [00:36:50] stickers.

Rory: And it’s, it’s part of celebrating, but it’s like celebrating is more of like life’s [00:36:55] biggest moments. Yeah. Commemorating is like acknowledging more of like.[00:37:00]

The special things people are into. I remember the first gift you ever got me before yoga Mat. We were dating, yoga was a yoga [00:37:05] mat. You were commemorating that. I had just started going to yoga and I was like. That is such a [00:37:10] thoughtful gift. Mm-hmm. Not expensive. Not the nicest gift I ever got, but one of the most [00:37:15] thoughtful.

Yeah. And I think that’s what commemorating about is being thoughtful [00:37:20] and strategic, almost anticipating what do people need or what’s big in their world [00:37:25] right now. Mm-hmm. And you are the best gift giver. And, and, and I think [00:37:30] that, I think that’s it. And I, I’ve watched you show up for people. In the good [00:37:35] times.

Definitely in the hard times. You, you are the friend to have in a crisis.

AJ: Yeah. I say this [00:37:40] all the time, I’m not a great casual friend. If you’re looking for the girlfriend to go chit chat or, [00:37:45] uh, you know, go to the movies with, I’m probably not your friend. Like, that’s not who you call for that. But [00:37:50] I’m the best friend in the world for someone who’s going through a crisis.

Yeah. Mm-hmm. [00:37:55] I’m not good at that. And, and maybe that’s why I stay in touch is at scale that way is I’m [00:38:00] not your chitchat girlfriend. If you wanna have a deep conversation about how the world was [00:38:05] created, I’m down for it. But if you wanna talk about what happened in fashion this week, I’m gonna, [00:38:10] I’m not your pr, no one’s calling me for that.

They know. Um, but I do think it’s. But that’s also [00:38:15] how I’m able to keep deep, long relationships with very infrequent communication [00:38:20] is because when I do make the time, when I do have the opportunity, it’s like we’re [00:38:25] going deep. It’s not, we’re not talking about the weather. Uh, we’re talking about, uh, [00:38:30] life’s biggest struggles.

What’s happening with your kids, what’s happening in your marriage? We’re going deep [00:38:35] fast. It’s not a surface level wide conversation, but I also think it’s like that’s how you build [00:38:40] meaningful relationships. That can stand the test of time when you don’t live together and [00:38:45] you don’t live near each other and you don’t talk every month.

You might talk once a year. [00:38:50] You can still have deep, meaningful relationships and only talk once a year. Mm-hmm. And it’s because when you do [00:38:55] talk, it’s the important stuff.

Rory: Yeah. And again, I I, I don’t feel like the expert to add to this, [00:39:00] but I, I, I wanna share one quote for everybody that I heard, and it was a guest that I [00:39:05] interviewed on our show.

This is from Ryan Leveque. I’m not a hundred percent sure this is [00:39:10] true a hundred percent of the time, but it has totally stuck with me, and I have [00:39:15] wrestled with it because there’s so much truth in it that I’m like, maybe it is [00:39:20] always true. And one of the things that Ryan said, it was so simple, he said, the best things in [00:39:25] life.

Do not scale. Mm. The best things in life [00:39:30] do not scale. Um, and I’m like, there’s, you know, there are some great [00:39:35] things that scale, but like the best things in life, they really don’t scale. And so [00:39:40] you, you make the time to show up. Yeah. To, uh, celebrate, commiserate, [00:39:45] commemorate

AJ: the Three C’s. Coming to a new book soon.

Rory: [00:39:50] Yes, absolutely. The world is changing. It’s changing fast. The world of marketing, the world [00:39:55] of sales, the world of online offline reputation. And this podcast is the place [00:40:00] that you wanna stay connected to if you want solid, steady truth, [00:40:05] data-driven, practical, faith-driven principles to help you navigate.

That [00:40:10] change. So hit subscribe, come back, stay tuned. [00:40:15] We’re gonna be open and honest with you every single week. Share this with other people who want, uh, a [00:40:20] solid foundation for how to navigate the changing world of personal branding and [00:40:25] reputation, and turning those reputations into revenue. Hit subscribe.

WWK Ep 002: How AI Is Helping Us Scale Without Hiring or Firing: The Future of Personal Brands Starts Here

Rory: [00:00:00] This is perhaps the greatest opportunity for scale that we’ve seen in our [00:00:05] lifetime. Why am I nerding out over ai? I think [00:00:10] it’s a good touch point to, to consider. It’s a chance for us to scale our company and grow [00:00:15] profits disproportionate, um, to revenue. The number one [00:00:20] driving question, at least for me, in terms of what drives [00:00:25] our strategy at Brand Builders Group.

Is simply how do we help our [00:00:30] clients succeed faster? I am just consumed with that question, how do we help our clients succeed [00:00:35] faster? Yeah. That’s what I think is so powerful.[00:00:40] [00:00:45] [00:00:50]

Hey, welcome back to the podcast. [00:00:55] I am joined by my wife, business partner, co-founder, co-author. AJ [00:01:00] Vaden. Today we’re gonna be talking about and diving into the subject of ai. [00:01:05] We’re gonna be talking about the ways that we’re using ai, the ways that we’re not [00:01:10] using ai, what’s helpful, what’s gimmicky, uh, how AJ is using it as a [00:01:15] CEO, and how I’m using it to build the content and infrastructure to support more [00:01:20] personal brands and more of our clients.

So, babe. Welcome back to the [00:01:25] show

AJ: on this topic of ai. I think it would be really [00:01:30] fascinating for everyone who’s listening to hear why you are [00:01:35] so passionate about it, and for those of you

Rory: passionate, also nerdy,

AJ: passionate, [00:01:40] nerdy, whatever you wanna call it. But I think this is really good because a lot of people listening may not know, but we’ve [00:01:45] really been on a internal.

Company wide kick for the last 18 months [00:01:50] on building bots and uh, trying to figure out different AI tools and [00:01:55] strategies to help us scale without having to add a lot of human capital. And I’ll just [00:02:00] start with this. My philosophy is and will always be. I do [00:02:05] not want to use AI to replace jobs. I would like to use [00:02:10] AI to scale from here without having to add more jobs.

One of the [00:02:15] things that we say at Brand Builders Group all the time is we wanna provide maximum income [00:02:20] opportunities for the team that we have. But if we keep having to add more jobs, more [00:02:25] roles, more people, well then the income opportunities have to get [00:02:30] distributed evenly. But if we can figure out how to do [00:02:35] more with less.

Addition of human capital. Mm. Then we [00:02:40] are, we’re able to keep that money and spread it more internally to who’s here. So, uh, I think that’s a really [00:02:45] important place to start. I know there’s a lot of companies doing a lot of layoffs right now. I just read [00:02:50] last week, Salesforce announced a huge layoff because mm-hmm.

The CEO said, I [00:02:55] just don’t need as many bodies. Mm-hmm. And you know, I think there’s a lot of benefit to ai, but I [00:03:00] see our team as more than just bodies. Mm-hmm. Right. They are more than just bodies. We’re also super [00:03:05] believers and advocates in what AI can do to help scale efficiencies, effectiveness, [00:03:10] and I think this is a good topic to talk about both humanity [00:03:15] and ai.

Rory: Yeah, so as you were talking, it was reminding me, you know, there’s a, there’s a [00:03:20] chapter. In our, in our new book, wealthy and Well-Known on Monetization strategy, [00:03:25] which you wrote, where we talk about the difference between growth, scale, growth and scale and scale. [00:03:30] Why don’t you tell everybody what the difference is?

I mean, I know everybody listening has already read [00:03:35] our book. Of course, of course. They study it on nights and weekends, but every chapter underlined, highlighted,

AJ: folded, [00:03:40] start

Rory: if they haven’t.

AJ: Yeah, so growth is when you are growing revenue. [00:03:45] At the same rate, you’re growing expenses, right? So that’s growth, right?

Yep. Uh, we just know [00:03:50] so many people behind the scenes who have, you know, and I’m sure all of you have seen this too, it’s like, [00:03:55] you know, learn how to have a six figure launch, make seven figures in your first year. And it’s like, [00:04:00] okay, that that could be true. But what no one talks about is, well, I also [00:04:05] spent six figures or seven figures in ads or staff.

Spent [00:04:10]

Rory: eight figures made multi seven figures. Yeah. Not a good, and I think a lot of people

AJ: talk about revenue, revenue, revenue, but they [00:04:15] forget. There’s this other thing that occurs too, which is expenses. Expenses, expenses. Mm-hmm. And not enough [00:04:20] people, at least I think, online talk about what’s a little bit more [00:04:25] important, which is profits.

That’s actually the money you get to keep. So [00:04:30] that is growth when you’re, you’re growing revenue, but expenses are growing up the same rate [00:04:35] scale is when you are growing revenue, but expenses have [00:04:40] flatlined. It’s, they’re no longer growing at the same percentage as [00:04:45] revenue. So that’s what happens when you have figured out how do you continually grow revenue [00:04:50] and you’re able to help flatline and maintain the same expense [00:04:55] without having to exceed it to grow revenue.

Rory: Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I think it is a [00:05:00] brand builders group. I think it’s like we have two. Audiences to cust to [00:05:05] customers. We serve our internal team and then our actual paying customers. And that’s something that you and I have always been [00:05:10] very passionate about is like we’re not just building a business.

It’s like we’re creating a family. We take it very [00:05:15] serious. Like we’re pro, we’re supporting the families, like Brand Builders Group supports all the [00:05:20] families who are a part of this ecosystem. And so I do think that that is part of the [00:05:25] vision and the excitement of AI is to go, this is perhaps the greatest opportunity for [00:05:30] scale.

That we’ve seen in our lifetime.

Both: Yeah.

Rory: And maybe that we will ever see in [00:05:35] our lifetime. So when you, when you, when you start with that question, why am I [00:05:40] like nerding out over ai, I think it’s a good [00:05:45] touch point to, to consider those two audiences. One is what we already said, it’s a [00:05:50] chance for us to scale our company.

Grow profits Disproportionate to [00:05:55] revenue. Yeah. Which we then turn around and we share with our team because of how we’ve got the, the structure [00:06:00] set up. And then number two is I think that the number one [00:06:05] driving question, at least for me in terms of what drives [00:06:10] our strategy at Brand Builders Group, is simply how do we help our clients [00:06:15] succeed faster?

I am just consumed with that question, how do we help our clients succeed [00:06:20] faster? Because one thing that also I think is very different about Brand Builders Group is [00:06:25] we’re not just like for us, you know, you and I have a shared sales philosophy that a sale [00:06:30] isn’t made when the cash is collected. A sale is made when a result is [00:06:35] delivered.

Mm-hmm. And so we’re not just in the business of. Collecting [00:06:40] cash from our customers. We’re in the business of delivering results to our customers, [00:06:45] and we’ve never, I don’t think we’ve ever had someone leave our membership program [00:06:50] who was like. This program sucked. This was a waste of time. I didn’t [00:06:55] like it.

You over like, over promise this wasn’t good. It’s more like I just, [00:07:00] you know, they got, they were too busy, like with their normal day job or they didn’t [00:07:05] maybe like, it didn’t take off the way they wanted it to. Or as fast. Or as fast. It’s, it’s, it’s [00:07:10] all about speed, right? It’s like, you know, I just, it’s not taking off as, as fast as I want it to.[00:07:15]

And so. To me, brand Builders Group is a strategy firm. First and foremost. [00:07:20] I think our job, at least how I view my job as like our head of curriculum, uh, [00:07:25] you know, that role that I kind of play is my job is to go out and find [00:07:30] the world’s smartest and most effective strategies for growing a personal brand in all [00:07:35] aspects.

Social media, podcasting, book launches, you know, speaking, blah, blah, blah is like [00:07:40] I have to go kind of, we have to go find those, but. [00:07:45] Every one of our clients has always said, can you just do this for me? [00:07:50] Like, can you just like build these funnels for me? Can you just like write my my keynote for me? Can you, it was like, can [00:07:55] you, can you just read my book and edit my book?

Like, can you just write these funnels? Can you just edit my [00:08:00] demo video? Can you, and it’s like, man, with a thousand, you know, [00:08:05] we’ve got nearly a thousand active members. It’s like, I would love to do that. I know that [00:08:10] that would help. I know you would love to do it. You’re occupied running the whole company [00:08:15] and with a thousand members, it’s like there’s only so much time we can get to people.

Yeah. And so I [00:08:20] think the bots, I think AI for me is going, this is the [00:08:25] way that we can scale execution to go. These [00:08:30] bots are a chance to have Rory and AJ [00:08:35] coaching every single person in our membership as if [00:08:40] they were sitting in this room right now. Right here talking to us like we would over dinner with [00:08:45] friends or clients.

So I think that’s, to me is the, that’s the big vision is to go, [00:08:50] they, I see them as a vehicle to enable us to move from solely [00:08:55] strategy to strategy plus execution. Execution still be in secondary, but we [00:09:00] can scale the execution, its ability to, to scale access to us. Yeah. [00:09:05] That’s what I think is so powerful.

AJ: So I have a question for you. If time and money were no [00:09:10] limit and you could have any AI tool created and deployed [00:09:15] next week. What would you be working to solve? Like what problem would you be working to [00:09:20] solve with ai, with unlimited money and resources that could launch next week?

Rory: Are you gonna gimme an unlimited budget?

[00:09:25] Is that why you’re asking?

AJ: I’m absolutely not doing that, but I do think it’s a good question.

Rory: [00:09:30] AJ is very frugal, which is why, part of why she’s such a great ceo. I am the

AJ: financial [00:09:35] fiduciary,

Rory: financial fiduciary slash frugal, um,

AJ: when [00:09:40] necessary.

Rory: Okay, so I love this question. So I’ve been describing [00:09:45] ai. To our community in almost like two eras.

So we’re in [00:09:50] era one right now, which are really like the release of these bots, right? So we’re [00:09:55] creating custom bots to immediately achieve deliverables for [00:10:00] clients. There’s things that we teach clients how to do. Here’s how to write a sales page. Here’s how to create an expert [00:10:05] bio. Here’s how to do your brand positioning statement.

These things that you’ve heard about this. On this podcast and [00:10:10] in the wealthy and well-known book of like, you select your primary business model, identify your [00:10:15] avatar. So

AJ: we have built a whole suite of bots that help you execute strategy.

Rory: Yeah. They [00:10:20] execute and they’re like things that you would do one time.

Sure. Right. You write a speech one time, you write a book [00:10:25] one time, you write an avatar one time. And so the, the, the, the earliest win and, and for [00:10:30] those people who are not listening, those are just some of the examples that we coach people on. Um. [00:10:35] Is going, let’s create bots to execute those things so people can [00:10:40] create those deliverables faster.

But the real answer to your question is what I think era two is [00:10:45] an era two for me in terms of how we’re deploying AI to [00:10:50] our membership is creating bots or more appropriately and [00:10:55] accurately named agents, which is a series of bots strung together, agentic [00:11:00] workflows. Creating agentic workflows that solve the problems [00:11:05] that never go away,

Both: such as,

Rory: so let’s give some examples, right?

[00:11:10] So such as creating social media content. [00:11:15] Mm-hmm. So social media is a beast that you have to feed. Mm-hmm. Again, and again and [00:11:20] again. Again. Like every week you have to put out new content. Yeah. So you need new topics,

AJ: lots of. [00:11:25] Tools could do that right now. So what is different about this?

Rory: Yeah. Well, what’s different about [00:11:30] ours is that it’s got our intellectual property baked into it.

Mm-hmm. So I [00:11:35] think this is what I think is the real magic of AI for personal brands. And I think, I think we’re actually doing a [00:11:40] great job of this is what makes our bots so amazing is [00:11:45] three parts, and it’s equally thirds. So the first third is. [00:11:50] That they are based on LLMs, Chachi, bt, Claude Gemini, [00:11:55] grok, et cetera.

And we’ve built our AI digital [00:12:00] infrastructure to be nimble to where we can toggle switches and operate with different [00:12:05] foundations. You, you know this, but the people listening have definitely never, you know, heard us talk about this on this show. So [00:12:10] you’ve got these LLMs. And so you could ask chat GBT, you [00:12:15] know, crank out some content topic ideas for me and it would do it [00:12:20] for you.

But what it would be missing is the second of the three parts of [00:12:25] the triangle, which is the brand builders group proprietary intellectual property. [00:12:30] Yeah. So all of the things that we teach about viral hooks and talk tracks and what to [00:12:35] say and how to, you know, reduce your fear and blah, blah, blah. All these things in our curriculum that are not.[00:12:40]

Accessible in the public domain, Chachi bt, and none of those LLMs large language models have [00:12:45] access to our proprietary information. And so this is what I think all personal brands should [00:12:50] be doing. It’s again, we’re just telling people to do what we’re doing is we’re going, so we have, you know, call it [00:12:55] Chachi BT as the base foundation, but then our IP is layered on top.

So if you want the brand [00:13:00] builders way, the Brand Builders group way, the brand builders group methodology, we’ve baked it in. Mm-hmm. [00:13:05] And then the other third is. The client’s information. So our [00:13:10] bots, as you know, operate off of something that we created called Brand Memory. So when they [00:13:15] complete exercises from our curriculum, like in the era one bots, we store [00:13:20] that information into brand memory.

And so every [00:13:25] future use case of a bot draws upon everything that’s already [00:13:30] preexisting in brand memory. Right? And so that’s the, that’s the, that’s the magic now. [00:13:35] Your question was if I had unlimited, yes. Let’s get to my question. Unlimited budget. Yes.

AJ: My question. [00:13:40] Yeah. What would

Rory: I do? And, and it’s, I would solve a whole classification of [00:13:45] problems, which are the things that never go away.

So for example. Creating [00:13:50] topic ideas that are not only structured to go viral based on, you know, [00:13:55] what the LLMs would say, but scripts that are, are coached through RIP [00:14:00] and then specifically tailored to you based on everything else you’ve done. That’s a problem that never goes [00:14:05] away. You have to constantly create content.

You gotta create thumbnails for your YouTube channel. You gotta edit [00:14:10] videos would be another great example. So one of the bots we created is called Clip Bot. So a lot of our [00:14:15] clients have a backlog of content and they’re like, uh, I hate social media. I. Can I just [00:14:20] upload? Like do you have someone that could just edit all my old videos?

And the answer is, well, you could, but [00:14:25] you’d have to hire a video editor. It’s very expensive. So we created a bot that will crunch your [00:14:30] past videos, and it’s trained to pull out the time codes that. [00:14:35] Make great short form content and then it feeds the time codes to the video editors. That’s a [00:14:40] problem that never goes away.

The the two big, but it

AJ: doesn’t edit it.

Rory: It doesn’t edit it. [00:14:45] Now, for now, the immediate thing that our clients right now in our membership have [00:14:50] access to, they can upload a file and it will give ’em the time codes of exactly, [00:14:55] exactly where to cut. So what it does is it saves them or their editor hours and [00:15:00] hours of scrubbing through footage and just like sitting there watching over and over and over.

AJ: Now these are bots [00:15:05] that are made just for our members though. So if we were to go outside of the Brand Builders Group [00:15:10] community, and you were to think about using AI that everyone potentially has [00:15:15] access to, not just within the Brand Builders group membership community, like [00:15:20] how do you do some of that?

If you’re not a member.

Rory: Yeah, I think, I think I’d actually flip [00:15:25] that question I’d like to ask you about, ’cause the stuff that you’re using AI for is more, I [00:15:30] think, relevant to that conversation. I think the, the part that’s super relevant of [00:15:35] what I’m saying to everyone listening, one, is to hear how we’re thinking [00:15:40] about it and building it internally for our clients.

One, because if you’ve, if you’ve been listening to the [00:15:45] show for a while and you’ve considered becoming a client, like there could not be a better time in history, [00:15:50] um, course of course you can Go to free brandand call.com/podcast and request a call with our team to learn [00:15:55] more. But even if you have no interest in becoming a client of ours.

[00:16:00] You could adapt the same thinking and strategy for how we’re building this to your own [00:16:05] business to go, all right, how do I build an environment where I’m, I’m leveraging the tools of the [00:16:10] day, the LLMs, but then I’m, I’m layering my proprietary intellectual [00:16:15] property on top of it, and then I’m creating an interface for my clients to interact [00:16:20] and add their own specific use cases.

And then that engine. [00:16:25] Of those three things, working together is what creates the magic answer. [00:16:30]

AJ: If there was one problem that you could solve next week with unlimited budget and [00:16:35] time, if time wasn’t a thing, like what is the one problem you would solve next week? And I hear you saying, [00:16:40] I wanna solve the problem.

That never goes away, but as we know so many, there’s several examples of those. Yeah, right. There’s so [00:16:45] many.

Rory: The immediate one is, is what I call the speaking switchboard. So we teach a technique called the [00:16:50] relationship switchboard. I’ve taught this for free on my blog before, which is basically a dating service of [00:16:55] introducing two people to each other.

And so we’re building bots that connect. People [00:17:00] who should know one another. Mm. A good example of that is [00:17:05] we’re building a database of people who need speakers, [00:17:10] and our clients are a database of people who want to speak. Mm-hmm. [00:17:15] Sometimes it’s for a fee, right? We have clients, you know. Ourselves. [00:17:20] We speak $50,000.

Our friends, you know, our, some of our clients speak a hundred, [00:17:25] $150,000. Eric Thomas, ed Millet, you know, Wil Guera. People like that, they get top, top [00:17:30] dollar to go speak. A lot of our clients go speak for free and they u use it to generate [00:17:35] leads. What I want to do is I wanna capture and build a database that all [00:17:40] of our clients.

Crowd source and then build the [00:17:45] agentic calculation to go, oh, AJ spoke at this company. Mm-hmm. [00:17:50] Rory would be a great fit for that company and for it to be an automatic catalyst to [00:17:55] create that introduction. And then the people who did the work of generating the lead and creating it, get a [00:18:00] percentage of the revenue.

That’s the, that’s the number one thing, because it would. It would [00:18:05] help us guarantee that we could make our clients money right away. So that [00:18:10] switchboard

AJ: functionality, and that’s an immediate ROI revenue generating, sales [00:18:15] driven lead generation tool. And I think that’s some of the, the [00:18:20] strategy work that a lot of people are not using AI for.

I think a lot of people are [00:18:25] using AI right now and they’re using it for very. Simple things. Important [00:18:30] things, but simple things. How to respond to this message, drop this email. I use it

Rory: every day for like, how [00:18:35] should I, how long should I grill stakes on stuff like that all the time. But

AJ: then there’s more strategic [00:18:40] building infrastructure work that we are seeing is really [00:18:45] expediting our ability to move technology forward without having to go hire [00:18:50] some big company who can code and who can do this.

You, that’s not a prerequisite [00:18:55] anymore. Some of the things that I think, uh, along those same lines that are really important, [00:19:00] not just in a personal brand fashion, but in a business owner fashion, a CEO [00:19:05] fashion that I have seen that have worked extraordinarily well and, [00:19:10] uh, I could give you a long list of things, but I think about some of the things that a year ago [00:19:15] would take me hours and hours.

And hours to do that I [00:19:20] am now cranking out in 5, 10, 15 minutes mm-hmm. Are extraordinary things that I [00:19:25] had to hire full-time people to outsource to that I’m now able to make a draft [00:19:30] and a car ride from my house to Starbucks, send it to someone else to edit, cleanup, and boom, there [00:19:35] we go.

Rory: Okay. And I would love for them to hear your actual workflow on this.

AJ: Yeah, I’ll, [00:19:40] I’m gonna do that.

Rory: Yeah.

AJ: It’s one step ahead of me.

Rory: Okay. Okay. I wanna see. Okay. But just [00:19:45] being, just, you know, we’re, we’re, it’s not just one of us who can be verbose. I’m just, for the record. [00:19:50]

AJ: We’ll, we’ll, we’ll let the audience decide who’s more verbose. We’ll do that. We’ll have [00:19:55] a, a voting contest in social media.

Uh, like a, a, a great example is, uh, [00:20:00] role benchmarking. Job descriptions, salary benchmarking, uh, [00:20:05] competitive analysis of, you know, so we need

Rory: to hire a new person. Yes. Walk us through [00:20:10] that.

AJ: So, today, and again, this would take. So many hours [00:20:15] and recruiters to do a year ago. Soon as I need a new role. The very first thing that I do, and again, [00:20:20] this is where you have to know the role.

You can’t just step in and expect AI [00:20:25] to be your brain. That’s not how it works. And I think that’s when a lot of people going, oh, that wasn’t [00:20:30] very good. Like, the output is only as good as the input. So you have to use your [00:20:35] brain in order for it to do good work for you, which means you really have to know the role.

[00:20:40] You have to sit down and go, what am I really looking for? What type of person am I looking for? [00:20:45] What tasks and responsibilities would this person do? Uh, who would they report to? [00:20:50] Uh, what would be the frequency of these tasks? What skill level would they need to have in those [00:20:55] things? Mm. And so once I have all of that, and again, I literally voiced [00:21:00] this out to myself.

Rory: You have, you have all. And then [00:21:05] how out of your head, I literally

AJ: use the voice feature on chat, GPT. [00:21:10] And I literally say, uh, hello, will you please [00:21:15] so friendly with it? Uh, and I go, Hey, I am looking for a brand new position that has never [00:21:20] existed before. I am looking for a person with these character traits, these [00:21:25] personality characteristics, who can do these categories of work.

And one of the things that I have [00:21:30] found that works really well when you get super clear and specific is I break down the [00:21:35] categories of work. Someone would do. I would say, Hey. Category one would be [00:21:40] something such as proactive member outreach of members who [00:21:45] are at risk. What does ask at risk mean? Then I’ll define that and I’ll go, and here are [00:21:50] some of the things that I know they should do, and then I would encourage.

Chat, GBT, Hey, [00:21:55] please help fill in the gaps with anything that I’ve missed based on these types of [00:22:00] membership companies that we potentially are comparable to, right? So I go category by [00:22:05] category. Then at the very end, I would wrap that up with, Hey, I need a formal job description. That can [00:22:10] be used. One externally facing, then a more detailed one that would be internal [00:22:15] facing that a manager could hold this person accountable to.

Then I want you to go [00:22:20] out based on this skill level, right? And I’ll say this is a entry to mid-level [00:22:25] person with three to seven years of experience. This is a Nashville based [00:22:30] position, or it’s a remote based position because those are two different salary fields, and I would ask it to [00:22:35] do a salary benchmark across comparable companies of our revenue size.

With [00:22:40] our employee count across all states in the United States.

Rory: Is this a different prompt from [00:22:45] the giant? The giant,

AJ: all one big prompt?

Rory: You’re just, you’re just puking it. These

AJ: are like [00:22:50] eight, nine minute prompts. Yeah. Like legit. Uh, then from there I would say please [00:22:55] make me KPI recommendations that are top line or bottom line [00:23:00] oriented.

I would say create me a metrics chart that gives me at what [00:23:05] frequencies I said all of these tasks should be done at. This isn’t an eight, nine men minute [00:23:10] drive. Like I use my drive time to do this now. I’ll take a once over. I give my [00:23:15] feedback through the voice prompt back into chat, GBT, and then I have a draft [00:23:20] then said, sent to our head of people in ops who can verify a few things and we are ready [00:23:25] to go in about 15 minutes.

Both: Mm-hmm.

AJ: This is. Immensely [00:23:30] powerful and helpful in terms of, do you know how many sites that I would have to subscribe [00:23:35] to or people to talk to to do a salary benchmarking? Less than two years ago, I was paying [00:23:40] $8,000 a year to do what I just did in eight minutes for free on chat, GBT.

Rory: Mm-hmm. [00:23:45] One of the, one of the mantras we have around Brand Builders Group is Say it ugly first.

We teach our members that [00:23:50] all the time when you’re creating content or like whatever, it’s like say it ugly first, just puke it out. [00:23:55] That’s what you’re doing. I do the same thing where it’s just like, you don’t have to have it perfectly [00:24:00] formulated, just start talking. Oh, yeah. Because it, that’s what it does really well, is it organizes your [00:24:05] thoughts and creates like, oh, KPIs and charts.

Um, no, I’ve

AJ: set up projects. [00:24:10] Okay. Like in chat GBT for this particular, you know, scope of work where I keep all of [00:24:15] the job descriptions so I can. Go back to a project and continue to iterate [00:24:20] on a, you know, job description of like, oh, you know, I’ve changed my mind after talking through this [00:24:25] with our team.

We don’t need it to do this, this, and this, but I want you to add this, this, and this. The [00:24:30] amount of workload that this has offboarded from [00:24:35] myself, my head of people in ops and other directors in the company that just had never taken the time to [00:24:40] do this, is, I can’t even tell you how extraordinary it has [00:24:45] been in order to clearly articulate, explain, and then benchmark.[00:24:50]

That, that is where I think some of the strategic thought is not [00:24:55] being considered of like, no, I’m not having it pull anything from Glassdoor to Indeed [00:25:00] to, uh, different other US Bureau of Labor Statistics and I’m benchmarking [00:25:05] salary roles and KPIs, so I feel a hundred percent confident when someone on [00:25:10] the team or my head of people or a recruit’s like, well, I just think, uh, [00:25:15] I should get paid more.

Rory: Based on

AJ: what you feel like, tell me, tell me more about that. [00:25:20] Is

Rory: it giving you, it’s giving you accurate market. Market compare. Market cost. It really is.

AJ: It really is. And, and [00:25:25] then I have all the places to go, but then that’s it. It’s like I, what I have found is that so many [00:25:30] people who are. Looking for jobs who are, you know, looking for a new job or even [00:25:35] looking to get a pay increase or get a promotion with their own company.

They go out and they go, Hey, what’s [00:25:40] the, you know, salary range for this, this job? Mm-hmm. With no context. [00:25:45] Like, do you know, like you could have the exact same title and have 45,000 different job descriptions, [00:25:50] and it’s like, what a title. Of this person, it means that this company that’s a [00:25:55] $50 million company with a similar title at a $5 million company, we’re not gonna have the same [00:26:00] salary team.

Rory: Yeah. Director of marketing means something very different. [00:26:05]

AJ: And in different geographic areas, Joe, and at different, uh, levels of [00:26:10] experience and years of experience. And so just to have the very [00:26:15] factual, logical proof to go, this is not an emotional conversation anymore. [00:26:20] This is a logical conversation around real dollars, real employee counts.

[00:26:25] Companies, geography

Rory: matters. Geography tremendously. And so what I have found is

AJ: that for our team and for the [00:26:30] conversations we’re having with potential employees, it gives us all a little bit more confidence of [00:26:35] going, wow, like this would’ve been a full-time job or a recruiter or [00:26:40] a very expensive tool to do the level of data and research that it’s empowering us to have real [00:26:45] conversations and, and make good hires based on [00:26:50] real data.

Rory: So this is a, a little bit off the topic of ai, but it’s, it’s right [00:26:55] in the vein of what you’re talking about. Can you explain for everyone what is the difference between a [00:27:00] job description and a role mapping? We’ve never talked about that on this show, and I know that’s a huge part of [00:27:05] how you’ve hired and mm-hmm.

And built our leadership team to hire. What is the [00:27:10] difference between a job description and a role mapping? Why do you need both, and how do you use each of them?

AJ: And [00:27:15] I am currently using AI to develop both.

Rory: You’re using AI to build both of them. Yeah. But the [00:27:20] use for each of them is strategically different.

My job

AJ: description is for recruiting purposes. A job [00:27:25] description is external facing. It is high level. It is what you put in a job post. It’s what you [00:27:30] send to recruiter. It’s what a candidate is previewing to go, do I have the skills and [00:27:35] qualifications and do I have the interest to apply for such a job? A role [00:27:40] mapping is an extension.

It’s an uh, an elaborate [00:27:45] expansion of a job description into every. [00:27:50] Granule, every little, you know, rock that needs to be unturned of what this person is [00:27:55] accountable for. Mm. And that’s really it. It’s like, what tasks are you accountable [00:28:00] for in this role? So when I make a job description with ai, now I turn [00:28:05] around and then I use the exact same job description, make another probably seven, eight minute prompt [00:28:10] to build out a detailed role mapping that a manager could hold their team accountable [00:28:15] to.

It’s going, Hey, in each of these categories, what are the very [00:28:20] specific tasks and responsibility, and at what frequency is this person held [00:28:25] accountable to doing these things? What I have found is over the years is that [00:28:30] most often, more often than not, it’s not that somebody just didn’t do the job ’cause they [00:28:35] didn’t want to.

Often they didn’t even know they were supposed to or at what [00:28:40] frequency, and that was poor onboarding, poor training, poor accountability.

Rory: I’ve also been shocked at how many of our [00:28:45] meetings we’re like, well, whose job is that? And we’re like, we’ll pull up the role mappings. And it’s like, [00:28:50] oh, it’s not on anyone’s role mapping uhhuh.

Like, we literally don’t have that task assigned to a [00:28:55] person. And so it’s like, no wonder why it gets, doesn’t get done. It’s, it’s extremely powerful [00:29:00] to go, like each task for each person

AJ: has to belong to a person, has to belong to somebody with [00:29:05] a backup. And then a backup to the backup. But that’s it. A role mapping is the, the [00:29:10] list, the list of tasks that we can hold that person accountable to.

So that’s an internal [00:29:15] facing document, or a job description is more of a recruiting tool.

Rory: Yeah. And one, one thing for, if you’re feeling [00:29:20] overwhelmed right now as an entrepreneur and you’re just like completely buried, a lot of times it’s, it’s [00:29:25] kind of a desperate, hopeless feeling of like, I need help, but I can’t have time to get [00:29:30] help, and where am I gonna find the perfect person?

From an emotional standpoint, the best thing you [00:29:35] can do for yourself is make a list of all the tasks that need to be done. [00:29:40] Don’t try to find the person when you just dump out of your brain and and [00:29:45] chat. GBT is a good function for this. What are all the tasks that need to be done [00:29:50] is immediately emotionally freeing and empowering to go.

I could [00:29:55] probably get someone to do this, and at least now you know exactly who you’re looking for and, and you [00:30:00] can, you can, you can do something with it. You can, it goes from this obscure emotional, [00:30:05] you know, mess in our brain to a tactical like, okay, well what would it cost to get someone to do [00:30:10] these tasks and then hold them accountable?

What I found

AJ: is that when you don’t do that, and then we can move on from this [00:30:15] particular topic, when you don’t do that is when you end up overpaying or underpaying. [00:30:20] ’cause there wasn’t clarity in what this person was, would actually be doing. And [00:30:25] then all of a sudden they’re in the job and you’re like, you know what?

I do need someone to do this. Or you know, you’re, this is [00:30:30] gonna be what your job is and you end up overpaying or underpaying when you don’t have [00:30:35] clarity in all of the tasks that they’re gonna be held responsible for. So what, this has been an [00:30:40] immensely revenue saving. Profit maximization and time [00:30:45] saving tool that we’ve implemented in the last year.

Rory: I wanna hear some of the other examples of, uh, so this is [00:30:50] powerful. Like this has been huge and it’s almost like an HR function of it, a business that all, all of us, [00:30:55] uh, as entrepreneurs, you know, we, we struggle with or executives, like, you have to hire people. [00:31:00] What are some of the other general ways you’re using And by general, I’m just saying not our internal [00:31:05] bots.

’cause we built a, we’ve also built a set of internal bots that do things just for our team [00:31:10] internally, which has

AJ: been extraordinary.

Rory: So what are, what are some of the. Non-internal bots [00:31:15] that other uses of AI that you’re using as a CEO?

AJ: Yeah, I would say like I should be their new [00:31:20] spokesperson. ’cause I talk about this so much is fixer, [00:31:25] FYXE r.ai.

Rory: They would be a great sponsor for this podcast. We should, we should be. I [00:31:30] talk about them all the time. Time. We should be getting them as a,

AJ: um. I have an amazing chief [00:31:35] of staff who, you know, doubles as my executive assistant. Plus, [00:31:40] you know, all things project uh, management for me at BBG and beyond. [00:31:45] But there’s just so much that one person can do [00:31:50] that.

I just felt the need over the last couple of months. It’s like. I [00:31:55] need my chief of staff doing more project work, more high level strategic [00:32:00] work, and I found that she was getting caught up in my inbox in my calendar more than she had [00:32:05] time to keep up with vetting and, you know, research and a lot of [00:32:10] other things that.

Are on her role. And I got introduced to Fixer, you know, it’s comparable to [00:32:15] like a superhuman or some of those other, uh, email tools out there.

Rory: These are AI based [00:32:20] inbox management tools,

AJ: inbox and calendar. But what I like specifically about Fixer [00:32:25] is that one, you can train it, right? You can upload a lot of training docs to it.

[00:32:30] Others don’t have that or didn’t have it when I researched them. Uh, the other thing that I really like about it is [00:32:35] it replaces other tools that you might be using, like Fathom. [00:32:40] Right. So it follows me to every meeting that I go, and what I have found about it spec it [00:32:45] specifically, is that it’s

Rory: also an AI note taker for your virtual meeting.

AJ: It’s AI note taker, but then what it [00:32:50] does is it takes all of those, puts them in email, draft form [00:32:55] automatically includes everyone who is on the call. So I have all of these notes, like my chief of [00:33:00] staff used to have to come to meetings to take all of these notes and action items. And yes, fathom has helped [00:33:05] with that, but email drafting and assigning who to who?

It does it so [00:33:10] well, and by the time I’m done with the meeting, five minutes later, there is an email draft in my [00:33:15] inbox to everyone who was on the meeting with a recap of the meeting, a link to the meeting, and then [00:33:20] at every second with an action I item where you can link to where I said that or it was [00:33:25] written.

And so. The communication process, the accountability process of [00:33:30] using Fixer or something like Fixer has put everyone on notice [00:33:35] of, oh no, this is what we said. Now it’s in writing with your name tagged to it with the [00:33:40] minute it was said, email drafted, sent go, and the heightened level of accountability and [00:33:45] specificity that it does that is extraordinarily well.

It’s almost acting as [00:33:50] like a project management tool in and of itself without, you know, all the details of a Monday or [00:33:55] an Asana. But I have found that that is an extraordinarily useful part of [00:34:00] that. That was an added bonus. The other things is its ability to just [00:34:05] filter through your inbox and then draft emails.

Now the drafting of emails, most of them need slight [00:34:10] editing, but I have found that it’s accuracy and calendar availability is [00:34:15] extraordinary. Mm. So somebody will say, Hey aj, you know, I’d love to, you know, get on a meeting with you [00:34:20] and. I have filters set up. That is, if this is a first time person who’s never emailed me, it does [00:34:25] not draft a response.

It does not come to me that it’s being filtered. So it goes to an inbox that Laura [00:34:30] manages and checks of like, who is this stranger who’s never emailed us before? Who’s asking for a meeting [00:34:35] or a call? But if it is someone who is emailed before, or it can tell in the tone that we know each other, [00:34:40] it will draft an email, right?

That I can then go and approve it, scrapes [00:34:45] my calendar and says, aj, these are the three times that you’re available. Should [00:34:50] we offer these to, you know, Bob And uh, then all I have to do is edit [00:34:55] send. And often it’s just a send. But this is saving me [00:35:00] and my chief of staff hours every week. Like I love that.

It too gives me, you know, an end of [00:35:05] week recap of this is what we did for you last week. This is how many hours it saved, how many emails [00:35:10] we drafted. But last week alone in seven days, it routed, it rerouted [00:35:15] 782 emails that never met my eyeballs. That’s significant. [00:35:20] Not just for for me, but for my team. Um, and so.

There’s [00:35:25] lots of different ways of them just getting more effective, more efficient with where I [00:35:30] spend my time and where my Chief of spa staff spends her time with, Hey, I’ve [00:35:35] got an initial draft. All right, I can train it in my tone of voice. Uh, I have all [00:35:40] these, uh, folders set up where, you know, these are first timer, first time emails [00:35:45] that are coming in so we can vet like, do I actually know this person?

Or is it a sales? Is it a [00:35:50] promo? Is it marketing? Is it a mention? Is it Monday? [00:35:55] That alone, yes, you can have email rules like that in Outlook, but not to this degree. [00:36:00] Not to this level of what I would just say. The specificity [00:36:05] of how it’s tagging things and moving them has freed up so [00:36:10] much. Work for me. And then the drafting, just an initial draft has also [00:36:15] been super helpful, where maybe I change two or three words, add a sentence versus having to start from scratch.

[00:36:20] So fixer, uh, I’m super high on right now.

Rory: And you, you feel comfortable with the [00:36:25] team trying out tools like that too?

AJ: Our team is trying out tools I set up with [00:36:30] Fixer a brand builders group organization account. So anyone who tries to register [00:36:35] with Fixer [email protected] automatically gets added to the [00:36:40] organization.

Absolutely. So that we can set admin settings, which I think is also [00:36:45] really wise, otherwise every person in your organization’s trying a new tool. Um, and so [00:36:50] we’ve set up some admin settings, uh, in the tools that we’re advocating for.

Rory: What do you think [00:36:55] are. Some of the things people are doing wrong with AI in general in terms [00:37:00] of either how they’re thinking about it, how they’re using it, or how they’re not using [00:37:05] it just in general, like personal brands, small business owners.

[00:37:10] Let’s say specifically you go, here’s some of the things I’m either hearing about or seeing [00:37:15] people do or not do that I would flag as like. I wouldn’t [00:37:20] advise that.

AJ: Uh, I have three categories of really close friends who would [00:37:25] fit in each of these categories. Okay. Category one would be, what’s ai? It’s like, [00:37:30] I mean, I know what people talk about, but what’s it really used for?

I, I, I [00:37:35] have really close, successful Sure. Eight. Figure entrepreneur friends who right now are [00:37:40] going, don’t tell me how you really use it. And they, they still have in their mind a little bit. It’s a [00:37:45] marketing tool.

Both: Hmm.

AJ: Right. They’re going well, yeah. But I’m not in marketing, I’m not building a personal [00:37:50] brand.

I’m not doing copy and content like what actual business owners use it for. [00:37:55]

Both: Hmm. Um.

AJ: I have that category of friends. All

Both: right.

AJ: And I think that’s a, a [00:38:00] big no-no. I think that’s a big, don’t be in that category. Do I think that it’s [00:38:05] going to be used in every function of every department today? No. Do I [00:38:10] really think it will likely be in every function of every department of your company?

Very soon. I [00:38:15] do. Um, and that’s rather be, that’s gonna be because you, the business owner, the [00:38:20] entrepreneur have created a path for it, or your team’s gonna be doing it without you and they’re gonna go rogue because [00:38:25] they’re going, well, if you’re not doing it, I’m doing it because I would like efficiencies in my work.

And I think what [00:38:30] happens when I see the friends that I know who just haven’t embraced it in their work [00:38:35] life at all. Their teams have, and their teams are now [00:38:40] using it in maybe not, not the most productive way, such as thinking it can do their job for [00:38:45] them. Right. And all of a sudden, like I, we had somebody share this last week.

They’re like, my team [00:38:50] is sending me AI written emails. And it’s like, okay, well [00:38:55] that’s because you haven’t had the AI conversation. It’s like, I can still tell if I know [00:39:00] someone well enough. I’m like, you did not write that. That is way too polite. I know you didn’t do it. [00:39:05] Um, so I’m like, that is not, I know that is not how you talk.

And it’s like, no, you don’t [00:39:10] use AI to write emails to your colleagues or to your boss or to your team. [00:39:15] So is it a memo? Sure. Could you use it for that? But I think there’s some of those things where it’s like AI is [00:39:20] not an excuse to no longer use your brain. Right? That that’s not what it’s for. And [00:39:25] if we’re not educating and training properly on how do we use it, where do we use it, [00:39:30] what’s appropriate and what’s not?

Then people don’t know, so don’t be mad. Right? And that’s where a [00:39:35] business owners have to step in and go, these are the AI policies, guidelines for the company, and how we [00:39:40] use it for efficiency and effectiveness. And where it’s a no-no, you get to decide that. So that would be [00:39:45] category one. Category two is where people are only using it in, I [00:39:50] would, what I would say, I’m just gonna Skype business areas of their life.

And they go, [00:39:55] oh, well this is, I’m not gonna let this invade the personal parts of my life. Uh, or vice [00:40:00] versa, right? They, they have segmented this to, this is only for the [00:40:05] marketing department, or this is only for the financial [00:40:10] analysis team, or this is only for. Whatever executives, I’m just making that up, [00:40:15] or other people are who are going, well, I use it in my personal life, but I don’t wanna use it [00:40:20] in business because that takes away my true expertise and authenticity.[00:40:25]

Mm. I was like, well, that neither are true. Some

Rory: people use it more like Google. They’re just like replacing [00:40:30] Google for like personal search, but they’re not really leveraging the power, power. They’re not using it of it in business.

AJ: [00:40:35] Like I just a very quick example, like in my personal life, as you know, and some people who’ve [00:40:40] followed the podcast for a while know I’ve had a pretty radical health journey after an [00:40:45] emergency gallbladder surgery.

And I don’t eat oils, uh, of any kind, right? I [00:40:50] don’t cook with oils. I don’t eat with oils. I have a very low fat diet, don’t eat a lot of [00:40:55] sugar, right? So. If you don’t cook with any oils at all. [00:41:00] It can be kind of hard to go, like, how’s anything gonna taste good? Right? [00:41:05] So I’ve used this a ton for recipe creation.

Mm

Both: of,

AJ: [00:41:10] Hey, I need a four ingredient recipe that uses no taps, types of butter, [00:41:15] coconut oils, olive oils, avocado oils, no oils, who, da, da, da. [00:41:20] And that has been a very simple way, I tell

Rory: you, he who’s not gonna sponsor our podcast or any oil [00:41:25] companies. That’s right. Sorry

AJ: guys. But I think that, but is. One of the most [00:41:30] helpful because I have searched high and low in every bookstore online on [00:41:35] Amazon for cookbooks that cook with no oils.

This doesn’t exist.

Both: Mm.

AJ: There are [00:41:40] no, there are no cookbooks that are oil free cooking.

Both: Mm.

AJ: And so it’s been a really [00:41:45] challenge in our personal life, in my kitchen of going like, how do I not just eat a Turkey burger [00:41:50] every day? It’s been really frustrating. Um, and ever since I’ve started using this [00:41:55] for this micro part of my personal life, it’s like.[00:42:00]

I’m excited to cook again and try new recipes again, and none of them have oil in it, and there [00:42:05] is no cookbook that exists. Maybe that’s my next, that’s my next book. Mm-hmm. Oil free cooking, [00:42:10] which no one will buy, but it serves a really important personal need. Right. And so [00:42:15] how are we using it to build the gaps in our life where we haven’t been able to [00:42:20] find the resource we need?

Rory: Yeah. And that’s, that’s how I really think about AI in like a [00:42:25] really tight summary is it’s like. I think of it as like an assistant.

AJ: Yeah.

Rory: It doesn’t [00:42:30] do it for you. You have to know what to do.

AJ: It’s gotta do it with you. It

Rory: does. It [00:42:35] does it with you. You have to be able to direct its work. You have to be able to guide it, coach it, know [00:42:40] what you want.

Yeah. Like, it can’t tell you what you want. You’ve, you’ve gotta know that. [00:42:45] But it, it can do a lot of the more menial parts of labor or [00:42:50] manual tasks or repetitive things like it just crushes in that area. And deep

AJ: research too. Sure. [00:42:55] Research assistant, same, same thing. So that’s the second category. Okay.

Right. It’s like you’re [00:43:00] segmenting it somehow. Um, and then the third category, you know, you have the one extreme [00:43:05] of what is it? Don’t wanna touch it, don’t want it to invade my life [00:43:10] people or they just don’t get it. And then you’ve got the other where they’re like, [00:43:15] amazing AI is here. I’m firing my workforce.

Right. [00:43:20] And I think that’s equally as a dangerous place to be. That’s removing the humanity [00:43:25] from your work. And I do think it’s gonna create efficiencies. [00:43:30] Unfortunately, I do think it’s gonna replace jobs. It is replacing jobs. We’ve [00:43:35] already seen the massive layoffs, but a lot of those layoffs were happening because of inefficiencies.

[00:43:40] And I just really believe that there is a, a place for, you’ve gotta have the, the [00:43:45] human capital in the workforce. And then there is that a hybrid of bringing a AI in [00:43:50] to do the parts of the job that you didn’t really wanna do anyways? Mm-hmm. Right. There are some parts [00:43:55] of my job I just don’t want to do, and I have been doing them because I just have to do them.[00:44:00]

But now there is a tool. That does ’em for me, so I can do the parts that I’m better [00:44:05] at, more skilled out, enjoy more. That can be for my entire workforce. I don’t have to get rid of my [00:44:10] workforce. I can make them healthier, happier employees, more efficient, [00:44:15] more effective, more productive, and happier by using some things to [00:44:20] relieve things off their plates.

And that’s how I think we should be doing it.

Rory: Yeah. And I, I, I, I pulled [00:44:25] this up from one of our clients, so this is. This is from a woman named Daphne who’s [00:44:30] been in our program for 18 months and she said, um, you know, I jumped on the AI [00:44:35] bandwagon years ago, so I’m no stranger to the benefits and also the challenges, but [00:44:40] I’ve been using the, the brand builder bots since you gave us all access.

They are incredible. [00:44:45] I’m almost done writing all of my primary keynote speeches for all five of my pillars. These bots are [00:44:50] not just a one and done. As with all things, you really do have to work with them. That being said, the [00:44:55] brand bots have allowed me to leverage frameworks and models you’ve created, but [00:45:00] also to really learn how those models work at the highest levels to help me get more of my things done.

[00:45:05] You know, lead can offer closing offers. Uh, they are geniuses and. [00:45:10] I think, you know, that’s a, those are the bots obviously that we’ve created, but it’s, you, you see that [00:45:15] light bulb come on for people to go mm-hmm. Oh my gosh. It, it is doing, it helps [00:45:20] us to move faster and get through more of the mundane things, to do more of the higher level [00:45:25] things.

And while I do think it will replace jobs, I think it will also create jobs. Absolutely. I do think it will [00:45:30] cause people to have to think differently, just like the internet did, like the internet. You know, [00:45:35] killed a bunch of jobs, but it also created a bunch of jobs.

AJ: Same with social media, same

Rory: with social media.

So I, I, [00:45:40] I don’t, I don’t totally worry about the whole w world just being like, laid off to

AJ: [00:45:45] thoughts. I don’t either. And for every job that’s laid off, there’s going to be a [00:45:50] reemergence of industries and jobs that are refilled again, right? It’s not like [00:45:55] everyone’s gonna be, you know, sitting at home collecting unemployment.

Hopefully I don’t, I don’t [00:46:00] think that’s the case, but you know, I had this conversation with someone the other day and I’m like, if you think about every [00:46:05] single progressive

Rory: technological tech,

AJ: not even [00:46:10] technological, just any sort of progressive element of society. [00:46:15] So think about it, grocery stores, they, they are not technological at all, [00:46:20] but they were placed.

Farmer’s markets, they replaced the door to door [00:46:25] milkman. Right. They replaced, like they replaced something and eliminated one [00:46:30] thing, but created a whole new thing. Mm-hmm. Right. I’m not saying I’m a, you know, not to go shop at the farm. It’s [00:46:35] not what I’m saying, but it’s like every single progression has eliminated one, [00:46:40] but created another simultaneously.

And that’s what we’re seeing here. [00:46:45]

Rory: Is there anything you are scared of as we, so we gotta wrap up here. Is there, there so many things? Is there, is there [00:46:50] anything about AI that you are really worried about?

AJ: Yeah. Uh, but they’re [00:46:55] not any different than, they’re the same things I’m worried about with social media.

Uh, they’re the same [00:47:00] things I’m worried about with, with anything.

Rory: It’s like the, it’s, it’s just another [00:47:05] opportunity for the proliferation of bad things. Sure. But it is. Equally and greater [00:47:10] the opportunity of the proliferation of good things.

AJ: I, for, for now. I very much see it [00:47:15] as I see most things, anything in this world can be [00:47:20] wielded for good or for evil, and this is just another one of those tools.

[00:47:25] Another one of those examples. I think there is a lot of good to social media. I also know [00:47:30] there’s a lot of bad, right? I think there’s a lot of good [00:47:35] to, you know, schools. I think that we see a lot of bullying and a [00:47:40] lot of problems in schools today. Mm-hmm. That doesn’t mean we eliminate school, right. That doesn’t mean that [00:47:45] we, you know, shut down freedom of speech on social media.

Um, but I think with [00:47:50] anything, this is just a new emergence of there are gonna be hard things, there are gonna be [00:47:55] scary things. Welcome to life. Uh, I, I, I get scared going on the [00:48:00] interstate every single day, like just today, the day. Right. It’s no different than [00:48:05] anything else.

Rory: Yeah, I think, I think that’s so true.

It’s, it’s, you know, AI is a [00:48:10] tool and what matters is the people, the hearts of the people who are using it. [00:48:15] And I think, you know, when I think about our, our. Our passion of serving [00:48:20] mission-driven messengers is going, we wanna surround ourselves with people who are good [00:48:25] people. Yeah. Who care about changing the world, wanna make a difference.

And so we’re embracing [00:48:30] the idea of building tools to help people like that. People like you. To use these [00:48:35] tools so that you can reach more people. So those are some of our initial thoughts on [00:48:40] ai. Thanks for being here. If you wanna learn more about, uh, brand Builders Group and you wanna have a chance to [00:48:45] sample some of our bots and talk about how they could work for you, go to free brand [00:48:50] call.com/podcast.

Share this episode with someone who you think would benefit from it. And we’ll [00:48:55] see you next [00:49:00] [00:49:05] [00:49:10] time.