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Ep 94: The Vision Driven Leader with Michael Hyatt

Ep 93: The Three Components of Becoming a Highly Booked Speaker and Thought Leader with Josh Linkner | Recap Episode

RV: (00:00) Hey, welcome to this special recap edition of the influential personal brand. We’re breaking down the interview today with our longtime friend, Dan Miller, who I absolutely just love. I just love his energy, him and Joanne are awesome. And we met them on a cruise a few years ago and I’ve just been, been friends. So we got your top three takeaways from AJ and from me. So, get us going. AJV: (00:32) Yeah, I think the first thing he said this like really close to the beginning of the interview and I loved it. And he said if somebody or three different people ask me the same question more than three times, I’ll just make a product for it. I think the whole concept of what should I make a product about or where do I find content is really simply answered when you just figure out what do people already come to you for? And so instead of repeating the exact same thing over and over and over again, why not turn it into a product, a course or a video series or a book or a coaching program or certification or all the things that he has done and is doing really, he said most of that comes from just, you know, if I get asked the same question more than three times, then I really consider turning that into a product. RV: (01:24) Yep. I love that. I was one of my takeaways too, is just, you know, the power of listening to your audience. And I think one of the, one of the techniques or strategies that you can use is to ask your audience. So in his case, he’s just listening. But the other thing you can do, like if you need content ideas or you need product ideas, or if you need copy for like your sales page, send a survey to your audience, ask them some questions about what they want and what they’re struggling with, and then take their words that they write back to you and use some of their language in CRE in actually marketing what you’re doing and create a product for them. So that was one of my takeaways too. I just love that. It’s such a simple, a simple, practical, actionable thing that any of us can do, you know, right away. So that was good. So what was your second one AJV: (02:17) Second one was this concept of not doing the new and trendy thing that everyone is doing. And he said, I’ll try to recap it here. He said, but I, I resist the temptation to do every single new and trendy thing that is out there. And he talked about, he said, could I be missing out on lots of money? Maybe do I care? Not really. And I think that’s really just really powerful. It’s like, if what you’re doing is working, why would you derail? What’s working to do just what everyone else is doing. That’s new and trendy. And one of the things that I thought was really insightful and something that you don’t hear a lot about, he said, now I’m not saying anything is wrong with funnels or webinars or with anything he said, but you hear all these people all over social media promoting, I made six figures, seven figures in this launch. AJV: (03:10) He said, what you don’t hear about is how much money they had to give back and refunds. And I thought that was really interesting because you hear a ton of people. You see a ton of ads. It’s like how I made six figures in this funnel, or there’s this one out. And I don’t, I won’t say what it’s called, but it’s how do you have a seven figure funnel? And then he talks about how he came up with this whole thing. And yeah, probably you could do that. I’m sure people are doing that all the time every day. And Dan said, but what you don’t hear about is how much of that they’re actually giving back in refunds because a buyer’s remorse or they didn’t get what they thought it was, or it was a little bit misleading or a little bit of a bait and switch. And I’m not saying everyone is but I do think there’s some accuracy in the fact that you hear a lot of the revenue promoted and that a lot of the backend of what was it even profitable and how much did you actually give back and refunds? And I thought that was just very insightful. RV: (04:09) Yeah. I mean, you got the refunds, you also have affiliate fees and, you know, Facebook ads and paying your graphic designer. And, you know, at the end of the day, it’s like, how, how much do you really keep in? Which is but I think his thing into your point is more about the reputation and like the, AJV: (04:26) Oh yeah, no, I love when he said, he said it, he said, I’m way more about building a consistent audience than having huge infusions of cash said, I’m way more about the consistency time, over time, over time, that will last me 20 years than I am about this one time, big infusion of of cash. And everyone is different. Perhaps you are someone who’s looking for that big infusion of cash and like go for it, do it. But I loved what he said. It’s about playing the long game and making this a, a true, a true business versus this one time push. RV: (05:00) Yeah. So for me, the other thing that I thought was fascinating you know, we teach something to our brand new members that we call the fast cash formula, which is how do you, if you need to make money quickly. And we talk about how coaching a lot of times is the fastest way. If you need to replace an income is to offer coaching. And when he was telling his story, that was how he started. And still to this day, he does one day a month of one-on-one coaching work. And I love that because he was a real life example of what we talk about that, you know, coaching is the fastest path to cash in terms of replacing a large you know, income need, but it’s the least scalable longterm. And, and yet, so he sort of toward the story about how he started with that. RV: (05:51) And then after he had done enough coaching, he created a course for the people who couldn’t afford coaching. And, and so he was teaching this course and then people invited him to come speak because there were people seeing him teach the course. And that, you know, basically out of that coaching work came his content which became also his business model. And I just think that’s a really great way to do it is to do the work, to kind of get your hands in there. And obviously we love coaching. We, we believe in coaching in the power of one-on-one and I just, I just thought that was really encouraging. And, and, you know, he, he does have multiple streams of income, but it’s been developed over years and it’s, it really started from one great body of work, you know, that he flushed out with coaching and real life scenarios then applied it to a course, you know, then applied it to live events and speaking. So I thought that was just a great, a great example. AJV: (06:51) Yeah. There’s a great evolution of evolution. That’s a great one. And I think that’s somewhat similar to my third and final point, which is which I thought is very indicative of what you hear a lot. But yet there’s this mystery around it. He said, but I don’t count on any income from my books. And, you know, in his book is super successful and has been out there, just did a 20 year edition, right? 20Th year, RV: (07:18) 20Th or 25th. AJV: (07:20) Yeah. But a long time, right on. He said, but here’s what I have found. He said, it’s not the book itself that makes all the income, it’s the actual content within the book. So the book is the calling card. It’s the credibility source. Then not to say that you won’t make income. He just doesn’t count on that in his forecast or his budget. But it’s the content of that book that he then takes that and turns it into all these different curriculums. It’s a coaching curriculum. It’s a certification curriculum. It’s a course, it’s a video series, it’s a live event. It’s all these different things that are all circulated around the content of the book. And the book is at the center, but probably isn’t, what’s bringing in the most income for him. However, from that, there is just this entire huge circle of all these things that are moving to make this very successful, a very healthy business, even though most of the income is not from the center of it, which is the book it’s from all these other ancillary income streams that have become his primary revenue. RV: (08:27) Yeah. That’s good, good perspective on the book. For me, my third takeaway, which he talked a little bit about, but it’s more of, of what we know about him and Joanne behind the scenes. And I don’t know that he said this directly, but every time I’m with Dan and Joanne, it always occurs to me how they build their life or, or they build work around their life. They don’t build their life around their work. And so it’s, it’s one of the great possibilities of a personal brand is to be able to like fit work in and around your life. And it’s hard to do cause when you’re an entrepreneur, especially early on, it’s like a lot of times, you know, we’re kind of his life, but you, you want to get out of that and you can get out of that. And AJV: (09:14) I think that goes to a lot of what he talked about, where he resists the temptation to do all of the new and trendy things. Because, well, for what reason, it’s like, are you living to work? Are you working to live? And he talked a lot about his time and his schedule, but I think that is a part of it is resisting the temptation to do. RV: (09:34) Yeah. And I, and I hope for you, like, w w I wonder, I would bet if we could take all the podcast listeners and ask if you’ve heard of Dan Miller, I bet less than half of you have actually heard of him. You’ve probably heard of some of our other guests yet. He has one of the biggest businesses of everyone we’ve ever had on the podcast. And, and his example speaks to the power of steady consistency and just trust and playing the long game and plodding along. He’s the tortoise man. That’s a, that’s such a great that’s a great metaphor. And, and, and we mean that AJV: (10:14) It was his, he said, he said, I’m the tortoise. RV: (10:18) Yeah. That’s. And, and that is, you know, and we say that in the most honoring way, AJV: (10:23) He said it so we can say it. RV: (10:26) But even to that extent, it doesn’t mean you have to be slow. It’s just, it’s the idea of consistency. You don’t have to be the person with a million followers. And, and you know, this, these huge extravagant launches and given away cars, and like, you can do those things like, but, but you don’t have to be that person in order to be successful. Like you can just do the right thing for a really long time, and it will work out like you can’t fail if you just pour back into people’s lives. So I’m as encouraged by that. AJV: (11:01) Yeah. Well, I think it just, in general, there are a million different ways to build your personal brand. And Dan gives a one, one really great perspective of how to do it. And there are many other different perspectives that you will hear from other guests, but to what Roy is saying, it’s like, it’s, it’s all about. And what we talk about a lot, it’s playing the long game and Dan is a great example of the long game. RV: (11:26) Yeah. So there you have it. So hopefully you’re playing the long game and you’ll keep coming back here. We’re going to keep working to provide amazing guests for you and hopefully useful insights. We’re so glad that you’re here. We’ll catch you next time on the influential personal brand.

Ep 92: The Three Components of Becoming a Highly Booked Speaker and Thought Leader with Josh Linkner

RV: (00:06) Hey brand builder, Rory Vaden here. Thank you so much for tuning in to listen to this interview. We are so excited to bring you this information and wanted to let you know that, Hey, there’s no sales pitch coming from anything that we do with this is all our value add to you and the community. However, if you are somebody who is looking for specific strategies on how to build and monetize your personal brand, we would love to talk to you and we offer a free call to everyone that’s interested in getting to know us and is willing to give us a chance to get to know them and share a little bit about what we do. So if you’re interested in taking us up on a free strategy call, you can do that at brand builders, group.com/summit call brand builders, group.com/summit. Call to talk to you soon on with the show. RV: (01:03) So you are about to learn how to book over a hundred keynotes a year in the next 20 minutes. So Josh Linkner, uh, is I think the epitome of just a thought leader and an expert. He’s really the world’s foremost expert on innovation, both in academic from an academic standpoint, but also from an experiential standpoint. So you know, that we’re all about practitioners. So first of all, he has had five he’s, a five-time tech entrepreneur. There’s a combined exit value of over $200 million. And he also won the Ernst and young entrepreneur of the year twice, which is insane. That’s like winning two Nobel prizes in the world of entrepreneurship. And then on the thought leader side, he speaks over a hundred, uh, for over a hundred paid engagements. Every single year he is doing, he’s got three books, he’s a New York times bestselling author of three books. RV: (02:03) He writes for Forbes and inc. And just like, literally, if someone is booking an innovation speaker, they will eventually book Josh. Like it’s just a matter of time. So he’s here to share all of his secrets for us and tell us how that works and how in the heck he pulls that off. So buddy, thank you for being here. Truly a pleasure and an honor to join. Thank you. So how do you book a hundred keynotes here? Like what is it, is it, do you think in all seriousness, do you think it is a, is it a combination of a thousand little things or is it a few big things? Yeah. Well, first of all, not everybody wants to do that and I think you are pursuing speaking, you know, there’s no right or wrong. My record, I would think we were chatting earlier as 163, but someone might not want to do that. So please don’t feel obligated anybody, but I’m happy to show what we do. You know, Roy, I think it’s a lot of little things we spent over a decade dissecting JL: (03:00) The speaking industry and understanding how do people set fee? How do you create demand? How do you interact with bureaus? And I wish I could say there was one silver bullet thing, but it’s, it’s the intersection of being a strong thought leader being good on stage, certainly, but also really developing your brand. And I know you guys are the world’s expert at that in a way that the market understands and is willing to buy. And one thing is funny, you know, in my previous business I had about 500 people and 100 of them were in sales. So we had a massive sales organization. We don’t, we’re not, there was a hunting business with hunting down clients and we were able to win 74 of the top 100 brands. The speaking industry, in my opinion, is a fishing business. So it’s more it’s I don’t think you’re going to get a lot of success getting on the phone and cold calling meeting planners. But if you have the right SEO strategy, your website’s gorgeous, your marketing is cohesive and understandable. Your value proposition is clear. It’s about casting, tons of lines in the water and making them irresistible. And ultimately you’re going to get, you know, plenty of activity, RV: (03:59) Man. I love that. That’s such a good distinction between kind of the two and that’s the world that we came from. Also, we used to our old business was training salespeople, how to sell, like training them, how to hunt and then brand builders is basically, you know, how to fish. It’s like how to, how to make people come to you. So, um, you know, and I like to, I like the way you’re talking and thinking about that between like being a thought leader, um, and being great on stage and then really developing your brand. So let’s tackle those. Uh, so let’s talk about the thought leader part first. One of the jokes that I have around brand builders group is I tell people, I say, hopefully at least half of what we teach you is real substance because I, you know, I really think, you know, there is a, it really should be thought. Leader has a lot of depth and it should be about experience and education, but fortunately, or unfortunately it does seem like marketing and perception matters a lot. So how do you think you really become a true thought leader and what is the balance between the like, you know, I actually am an expert and I’m marketing as an expert and I’m doing things to, to position myself as an expert. JL: (05:19) The way I think about it is I think that if you’re a speaker specifically, you’re really running three interchange, interconnected businesses at one time, and let’s think about them separately for a second. One is a thought leadership business where you are truly an expert in your field. The second is a brand marketing distribution business on how do you actually sell yourself as a speaker and a thought leader? And the third one is that of a performing artist, being a great storyteller, being terrific on stage, et cetera, you really need all three of those firing on all cylinders to be successful. You can only get so far if you only have a little bit in each of those categories. So the first thing I would do, Rory is dissect separate those two, marketing yourself as a thought leader is different than being a thought leader. So going deeper on being a thought leader world, as you likely know, craves deep expertise. JL: (06:08) In one thing, you know, I’ve had the chance I’ve hired 10,000 people over the last 30 years, I could, I’ve raised hundreds of millions of dollars of capital. So I could probably talk about hiring practices. I could probably talk about deployment of capital and financial rigor and a bunch of other stuff, but I don’t. I talk about one thing, which is my core passion for 40 plus years, which is the deployment of human creativity to drive productive outcomes, AK innovation. So if I tried to speak on a lot of things where even if I’m semi qualified in many of those, uh, my entire business would collapse. So the first thing I would recommend people do is get super, super deep in one thing and be known for it. If your one thing is customer service being the most profoundly expert world beater in that particular thing. JL: (06:53) So instead of being, you know, really wide and an inch deep go go seven miles deep and a, you know, a millimeter wide. And to do that, I think it’s all about, you know, constantly learning, constantly reading. You should know everything there is to know in your field, read every book there is on the topic, study the masters, watch every podcast, watch every Ted talk, follow every other thought leader, you know, really go deep as an expert in your field. And that again, when you think about these three concentric businesses that enter intersect, um, the first thing you gotta do is get really smart in your area of expertise. But beyond that, I think that, so that would be to be an extra. RV: (07:28) Okay. So hold on. Okay, go ahead. Go ahead. Go ahead. JL: (07:30) One last point, first thing to do is be, be an expert, but to be a thought leader, then you have to have a point of view. You have to ideally reveal something surprising and different and show leadership in the field. Not only expertise, RV: (07:42) Love that. Okay. So almost everyone we talked to has that same advice. I mean our entire phase one event is all about helping people figure out what is their one thing like that entire experience is really just taking them through a series of exercises to help them figure that out. And I liked the, I liked the term that you used, that you are a semi qualified to teach a lot of things. Cause I think most of us are semi qualified to teach a lot of things. How do you, what is your advice to someone who is struggling between the, you know, four or five, uh, you know, different things? JL: (08:23) Well, ideally it’s the one that you feel you’re most passionate about that you have the deepest level of expertise in. And, um, the other thing that you want to look at is, is marketability. So if I was really, really passionate, which I am by the way about jazz guitar, that was a good example. Good example. I could talk about out of play jazz guitar, but there’s not a big market for that on main stage keynotes. Um, on the other hand, my, my core topic innovation is a much more marketable thing. So the first person you want to look at, you know, where where’s your passion, where’s your deep expertise today. And then where does that intersect with market opportunity? And, and once you identify a broader lane of market opportunity like leadership or innovation customer service, then you also have to say, what, where can I add my own unique twist or unique flavor? So instead of being the, you know, one of a thousand leadership speakers or 10,000 leadership speakers, why are you one of a kind and in your particular flavor of, of that broader topic? RV: (09:16) Got it. Yeah, I like that. So JL: (09:19) One, one person that we work with it, you know, he was a really smart guy, wrote a book. He spoke on leadership and his principles were awesome, but they were really generic. And as you know, generic doesn’t really sell. So we started working with them and learn that he also was really into comedy. He actually performed comedy at second city years ago. So we said, well, what’s the intersection of comedy and leadership. And we went through a lot of work. We teased out Saturday night live. So he then said, wow, what if I became the guy that showed leadership lessons from Saturday night live because it’s this awesome organization that reinvents itself every week and has got talent that it keeps developing a lot of really cool metaphors. So then he went super deep on the research on SNL. He interviewed cast members and studied and read everything there was about it. He became expert at the intersection of leadership and comedy Saturday night live. So in that case now we’ve found something deeply compelling and unique and can’t be ignored and doesn’t blend into everything else. RV: (10:13) Yeah. I mean, that’s, uh, almost like thinking about a painter, right? Where you like a painter pallet where you have like, okay leadership, but leadership with what else and mixing it together. It’s like the same color, but a new shade. Um, it’s kind of like, I think that’s really, really cool. And we talk about color and shade a lot, but we usually think about it more from a message perspective more than a topical area, but you’re kind of saying the same thing, which I’m really, really, I love that. I think that is that’s awesome. So, JL: (10:45) Um, can you talk about that? RV: (10:46) So the, the point of view part, I mean, that is kind of what you’re talking about here, but like how do you identify that, that unique point of view as you’re saying, or that unique perspective or that unique slant? So I guess in order to become an expert, I almost hear you saying, go read everything in my space, follow the stuff in my space, know it, and then it’s almost like I have to kind of add something on top of it. I need to add a layer to it. Or a uniqueness is the word that we would use from Larry Winget is a uniqueness, um, or this, you know, how do you identify the uniqueness? JL: (11:25) Well, eventually just like, so again, I should have said I’ve been playing jazz guitar for 40 years. I’m deeply passionate about the art form. And if you personally, you have to do, if you want to be a musician is you have to learn the craft, AKA build some expertise. So I have to have, what are the chords, what are the skills? How do you, how do you play a note, right? That’s the equivalent of basically being a, you know, an expert in your field, but then if all you do is play other people’s music, you’re a house band at the holiday Inn, you know, you’re, you’re not, you don’t have your own original voice or content. It’s those that take the expertise and then build upon it and develop their own message, their own voice. Those are the ones that, that, that, that become superstars. JL: (12:03) And so in our speaking world, if all you do is study other people and have no perspective of your own, that that’s going to be a limiting factor. Once you develop expertise, then the next step of saying, how do I interpret that in a unique and compelling way? What’s my individual point of view. Um, what I learned is that speakers who only recite cliches are gonna cap out at a certain level. But if you, if you’re the opposite, if you’re revealing surprising truths, if you’re sharing, uh, something to different than, or helping people see the world in a different and fresh way, that’s where the opportunity really lies. RV: (12:35) Um, I love that. Um, I think that that’s a great parallel of the it’s basically, are you playing cover tunes at the holiday Inn or are you packing out arenas? Like no one goes to a Garth Brooks concert to watch him play the Eagles. Like they go to watch him play his stuff. Um, that’s a really practical, practical parallel. So I love that. So that first business is the expertise. The second business is, um, the brand distribution. And so is that kind of like content distribution, like a media company? Is that it kind of the right vibe or what do you do? You know, explain what you mean by that second? JL: (13:15) Yeah. So the first business is thought leadership first, you know, part a building your expertise and then part B, having that in a unique point of view, second business that you’re running concurrently as is not immediate business. At least the way I would look at it. That’s, that’s sort of the business of being a speaker. It’s all the things that you do off stage such that you get onstage at higher volume and higher fee. So that’s your overall brand, which you guys help with. It’s your positioning. It’s how you interact with bureaus. It’s how you set your price point. It’s, it’s not the content, it’s not the delivery. It’s the business side of your teaching practice. RV: (13:49) So the, so the, the media component of that, like pushing out your content could, could maybe be part of, it’s kind of like a part of business. A speaking part thought leadership is like putting your, like you write for Ian. Can you write for Forbes and things like that, that you would, you would classify that as more of the thought leadership piece of your business. JL: (14:10) I would, you know, the lines start to blur, obviously, because when you put a piece out of content, which is thought leadership that obviously can drive activity, which is marketing, but I would look at the second component here of a speaking business. The business side of it is everything that you do to get on stage. So that’s, it could be paid marketing, it could be SEO, it could be Bureau relationships. It could be, um, content that’s driving activity. It could be social media marketing. So all the business side of your speaking practice, not the delivery, not the original content development, but the business side. And, uh, and that’s, that’s, um, I know you, you really help people with dramatically. Um, one thing, I don’t know if you’d like a tactic or not today, but we’ve developed a really simple formula of how to communicate your value to bureaus and planners. That seems to be working beautifully. Yeah. RV: (14:54) Uh, no, we, we don’t, we’re not interested in that. Let’s just skip past that. Cause we don’t want any tactic. No, of course he has share. We want to know. We want to know. JL: (15:03) Awesome. And so this has done through tons of mistakes, by the way, through ton. And then once we kind of figured this out, we field tested and on and on. So this is just, I know it’s a bit formulated, but if I were you as a, if someone wants to build their speaking business, communicate your, your elevator speech kind of like this, here’s the old way. What do you speak about answer? I speak about cybersecurity instead of just answering that question in terms of the, the, the general topic that you speak on. Here’s what we like. We like this, this three column approach. The first column is the burning problem that you solved. The second column is why you, why you’re the right person to solve it. And the third column is the transformation that you create. How is that audience different once they’ve embraced your teachings? JL: (15:47) So again, burning problem, why you, your credibility essentially, and then the transformation that you create. So instead of Roy saying, Hey, I speak on cybersecurity. I would say something like this. Now I help organizations that are deeply concerned and overwhelmed with the threats of security, both internal and external, and they’re deeply, uh, uh, frustrated. They’re unable to devote enough resources to serve in clients and building their company because they’re constantly playing defense. I’m going to go to the second column as somebody who’s written five books on cybersecurity and work with 49 of the top 50 big brands around the world and has a proven methodology to protect and insulate against cyber threats. That was my second column. Third column is now the transformation that I create, I would continue and say, I work with organizations to give them the confidence and creative freedom that they know that they are, their security threats have been mitigated, such that they can get on with the hard work of growing their business. And that was sloppy. I’m not a cybersecurity expert, but the notion is say what you do in that format, the problem that you solve, why you and the transformation you create. RV: (16:51) I love it. I love it. So on the business side of speaking, JL: (16:56) You know, you’ve, you’ve, you’ve built these successful companies in lots of different industries. That’s one of the RV: (17:01) Things I think is a big problem. Speakers have is they don’t treat their business like a business. They don’t invest into it. They don’t run it like a business. They don’t keep financial statements. They don’t do marketing, they don’t do sales like JL: (17:11) They don’t. So would you say that a lot of the principles of running a, any great business apply to running a great speaking business? Or do you say no? No. The speaking business is totally different. There are some unique elements to the speaking business, but I would lean on the first one that you got to run it like a business. Imagine if you ran a law firm, you’re like, yeah, I don’t really know. I just, people show up and maybe I send them a bill. Maybe not. I mean, the sloppiness that some speakers embraces is troubling. I think you’re exactly right. You don’t be really deliberate. What percentage of your revenue do you reinvest in marketing? How do you track leads and inbound opportunities? We have detailed dashboards and analytical models. We have throughput. I mean, we, we at it with the rigor of a software company and that’s been very, very helpful. JL: (17:52) Uh, and I, I would recommend people know, take that same approach, treat it seriously. Cause cause there really is a, is a wonderful opportunity. One thing real quickly to just say is that our research has indicated that the industry itself is really big, bigger than most people think there’s actually $4 billion of speeches bought and sold every year in North America alone. So the reason I’m happy sharing what we do is I don’t think it’s going to hurt my business. There’s a massive opportunity out there now. It doesn’t mean you can be half ass about it. You have to be good. You have to treat your business seriously. But if people who really pursue this with vigor, I believe there’s profound opportunity. RV: (18:26) I love that. Yeah. Well we very much appreciate the abundance mentality. I mean, this has been super duper powerful. And on that note, uh, you know, there’s this whole third section you talk about was kind of like the performing artist. Um, we’re not going to have time to get into that today, but, uh, one of the things that you do is you offer events specifically for speakers and building their speaking business, right? So where do you want people to go if they want to learn more about that? JL: (18:53) Yeah, a few years back when I switched you over a decade ago, when I started speaking, there was no real solid high quality training programs to help you build a speaking business. And so as we gained some success, we wanted to give back to the industry that we love. So we created a company with a playful name called three ring circus, and we help either newer speakers that have substance and also existing speakers that want to take their game to the next level in terms of both fee and volume, really build and scale and launch their speaking practice. And we help people develop all three of those components. And if you want to learn more, the website is the number three ring R I N G circus.com because Hey, after all it’s a circus out there, RV: (19:30) [inaudible], there it is. There’s the elevator pitch for the three ring circus. I know several of you listening are our clients and prospects. Obviously speaking it speaking is a huge part of building a personal brand. And, uh, you know, I will say this while we share and teach a lot on it. I consistently hear amazing things about Josh’s team and what you guys are teaching and, and, um, just really, really good stuff. As you can tell here, clearly from a few minutes with this guy, he knows what he’s doing. He’s super intelligent. And I think, you know, I just really appreciate Josh, you being willing to share such a methodical approach. And so many of these insights just abundantly and with open arms, because there’s, there’s a lot of people listening right now that I know want to be out speaking and be speaking more speaking at higher fees. And, um, so any last thoughts for somebody who is sitting there right now with the dream, you know, maybe where you were all those years ago going, Hey, one day I want to be out on stage and, uh, you know, I, I share that same sentiment of it can feel hopeless. Like there’s not a plan or a path, cause it’s not like a common industry or a common trade. So what would you say to that, that person right now, JL: (20:45) First of all, as I mentioned earlier, a massive industry, it’s not going away. There’s plenty of room for us all. If you have something to say, um, second of all, it’s not all about raw talent. It’s not that you were either born really great as a speaker or not. I mean, these are skills that can be developed and learn. Uh, and there’s no question. Now there is a specific thoughtful game plan to, to build a speaking business. The only word of caution I would have is treat it seriously. You, you said this earlier, Rory, but like, you know, if you’re going to open a restaurant and you don’t just like paint your windows and you know, go get a picnic table, you know, you invest in your restaurant and you make sure it’s great and you really build your craft and same thing. There, there’s plenty of opportunity for those that treat it seriously, but you have to be willing to do what it takes to build all three of those concurrent businesses be a really thoughtful thought leader, be a really strong business person in the middle. And then, and then number three, be great onstage. And if you’re willing to do the work, the opportunity is there. I love it. Josh Linkner ladies and gentlemen, check him out and go take a peek at three ring circus. See what they’re up to. And uh, we’ll we’ll I’m sure we’ll hear from Josh again more. Hey Josh. Thank you for being here, buddy. We wish you the best. Thank you. And thanks for your leadership in this field too. I think you’re giving a great gift to your listeners. So I just really appreciate, thank you.

Ep 89: Building A Sustainable Speaking Business with David Avrin | Recap Episode

AJV: (00:00) [inaudible] RV: (00:06) Hey, welcome to the special recap edition of the influential personal brand podcast. I’m so excited that you got to meet like my mentor, one of my, my real, real early mentors and best friends, you can see how much love I got for Dave. And yeah. You know, I hope if you haven’t listened to the interview that you go listen to it. If you want to know anything about where I started and you know, how it began for me began with Eric gesture and Dave Everyn that’s right. AJV: (00:36) The whole episode is basically just a bunch of bro love from beginning to end. It’s just both of them telling each other how much they love admire and respect and how much they’ve learned from each other, the whole episode. And there’s some takeaways, but there’s also a lot of love. RV: (00:55) Yeah. Well, you know, he’s made a big, yeah, I know. Well, and so I’ll share, I’ll start with my, you know, we’re going to do our top three takeaways. Um, and, uh, AJ came in with her glasses today, which I’m excited about talk nerdy talk nerdy too. Yeah. AJV: (01:12) Screen time, too much screen time. RV: (01:14) Um, so, so one of the things that was a big kind of moment, just a reinforcement, even for me to hear it again, was it just this idea of like, do you love the delivery of speaking and teaching enough that you’re willing to endure the prospecting part of it? Like, do you, do you want it bad enough to figure out a way to do whatever you have to do to generate the business? Now that may be that that might mean you’re the one that has to make the phone calls and send the emails. It might mean that you have to hire someone and pay them to do it. That, you know, there’s lots of things it could mean, but it means you got to figure out that part. And I’ve never met a speaker who was like, Oh my gosh. My favorite thing in the world is to just spend my time getting gigs. Like the reason you become a speaker is you want to be on stage or you want to be live on the webinar. Like you want to be in front of thousands of people, but there’s this part that you have to do. And it’s just the truth. The perspective of going look, what you see on stage is not what the life of a speaker is. It’s all the things. It’s the people and the team and the processes behind the scenes. AJV: (02:25) Uh, mine is kind of similar to that in a much more succinct version, but it’s speaking is not the business. Getting the speaking Gig is the business. That is a much better way of, I say AJV: (02:43) We had the same point. I’m not sure, but at brand builders group, if you’re a client of ours or if you’re just a listener or follow us on social or whatever it is, we kind of have this 13 phase in our 13 event process in four different phases. And we teach you how to craft a keynote, right? That’s a part of what we do in our business. We also teach you the business of speaking, right? So there’s two different topics that we cover. And I thought it was really interesting the way he said that, because there is so much of what we do. It’s called full Key, or it’s called CA what is it called? RV: (03:21) Keynote craft is she doesn’t teach world-class keynote craft is the event that I teach the art of speaking, which is what so many people are drawn to. Right? AJV: (03:32) And I loved what Dave said in the interview where he goes, I love how so many people tell you that you should be a speaker that have no idea what it’s like to be a speaker. You should go share your message. And it’s like, I have no idea what they’re talking about. That’s actually what we teach and what we do. And full keynote calendar, which is the business of speaking. And that is so much of what I loved about this comment is that speaking is not the business. That is the art, right. It is not the business. It is getting the gig is the business. And that is like any other business out there. You have to have marketing, you have to have a team. You have to have staff, you have to have technology. I mean, it’s not like anything else. I mean, it’s the same. So I just thought that was really a nice, succinct way of saying RV: (04:18) A better way of saying it. Yeah, absolutely. But that’s the, that, so two different versions of the same, big takeaway, AJV: (04:25) Second point. So I’ll go and then I’ll leave. I have no doubt. They’re probably similar. This was a very, very good interview for any of you who were like, okay, I want to start building up my speaking business. What are the, you know, behind the scenes behind the curtain? So my second takeaway was this concept of you need to be systematic, methodical in your processes, but very personal in your outreach, because we know so many people in the business of speaking where it’s all about, just put it out on social and do email blast and just do mass mailings and do it all as efficiently as it, but trying to be as effective as possible, but they have no staff. It’s just them or it’s just one person. So they’re really trying to do it as general and as masses as they can. Um, and he’s was saying, it’s like, no, be systematic and methodical in your processes, but be highly personalized in your outreach. And I thought that was a really good way. RV: (05:26) Interesting juxtaposition AJV: (05:27) Sum up. It’s like you can do things that are templative that still feel personal with a little bit of research, with a little bit of effort, with a little bit of like, let me pull this up, let me see. And my third point kind of goes into some of the things that I took away, but it’s not going to share those now, but that was my second. It’s like, you got to have a system and you need to be methodical with it. Right. There needs to be clear, checkpoints of do this, do this, do this, but then also take the time and effort to be personal in your outreach. So it doesn’t feel like another speaker that we’re getting marketed to. Right. I think that was really, that was really, RV: (06:03) Yeah. Yeah. I think that that really is a good, that’s a good dichotomy to understand and, and to be clear on, um, my second takeaway actually was, was different than that. It was a reminder of something that I struggled for so long in my career, and I still struggle with today. And I think it’s in a word it’s being self centered, not being selfish, right? It’s not about taking advantage of other people. It’s just, it’s just that you, as a speaker, it’s so easy to approach the world through what you think and what you do and who you are. And, you know, like what he said was, it’s not about what you do, it’s about what they get. And if you don’t tell people about who you are, tell them about what you can do for them. And that applies both to your marketing and to when you’re on stage, is that, you know, there’s, I think there’s, it’s probably safe to say that any speaker has some level of ego, some, you know, fair level of ego involved in, you know, just the idea of saying, Hey, I should be on that stage in front of all these people. RV: (07:08) Like they should be paying attention to me, which is good. You need, you need some, you need some real confidence to do this right. And pull it off. But at the same time, getting your mind switched to where it’s like, it’s not about you. It’s not about even what you’re passionate about. It’s about connecting your passion to their problem. It’s about connecting your expertise to what they’re struggling with every day. And your marketing has to communicate that your sales person, whoever, if it’s you, or it’s an agent or somebody, they need to be able to connect your expertise to the problems. And then when you’re on that stage in front of the audience, you need to be able to connect what you know, and what you studied and to how people can apply it into their lives. And David told me this exercise, I think when I was 20 something years old and it still to this day has stuck with me. RV: (07:56) When you write, copy on your website, go through and highlight in one color, everything that’s about you and then go through and highlight and another cover, color, everything that is written about your customer and your, you know, your prospect. And you’ll find that almost in every case, it’s a speaker is talking all about themselves and who they are and how great they are and what they’ve done. And very little about the problem they solve and how they help organizations and who is a right fit for them to serve. And so that was just another great reminder of something I’d heard over and over that you just can’t hear enough of. AJV: (08:33) You always know when Rory really likes something because he talks so loud. So she’s always kidding. RV: (08:42) she’s always kidding I’m gonna have me for like yelling and stuff, which is part of it. AJV: (08:45) I got in this tiny little room, right? Like one foot away. RV: (08:50) I got banished to the basement, by the way, I used to be upstairs. And I’ve been at one AGA tried to banish me to the wilderness. When we were building our house, she was like, what do you think about putting your office out in the forest? Which is we live in like a little wooded area. And I was like, you’re banishing me to the woods. We’re not even moved daily upset. Yeah, it was bad. So anyways, I’ve been banished to the basement. So this is my you’re in my yelling zone. Yes. I’m excited. AJV: (09:18) Dave actually talked about something in their interview that I thought was really good. He said, if you think that you’re going to get paid to get on stage and have some sort of cathartic experience, you’re severely mistaken, right. When people say, gosh, you’ve got to share your message, or you gotta, you gotta tell your story to some degree. It’s like, no, you don’t. It’s it’s how do they perceive your story? That would benefit them? What can they learn from your message that would solve their problem? And so many people, and I think you’ve said this, or you took it some somewhere, but it’s like this concept of an, an I focus story. You focus message. And I think that’s really important because you can tell your story, but it still has to resonate with the audience. Um, that was really good. That’s not my third point. My third, RV: (10:06) Well, that was a bonus tag onto my point. That was really similar. But yeah, that’s Craig Valentine. Y’all 1999 world champion of public speaking. Tell an eye focus story with a youth focused message. AJV: (10:16) Okay. My last point, um, and I just, it’s a combination of something that Rory said and something that Dave said, and I just kind of put it together. And I thought it was really good. Is that speaking, being a keynote speaker, right? Being a professional speaker is one of the best jobs on the planet. However, it is not a good business model because it’s not automated. It’s not evergreen. It’s not digital. It’s not recurring and it’s not scalable. It’s very limited. And it’s you on an airplane a lot, it’s you away from your family a lot. However speaking is one of the best ways of marketing your business. So let me say that all again. I thought this was really good. It’s like being a speaker is one of the best jobs on the planet for you for finite amount of time. But it’s one of the worst business models in terms of growing and scaling something. But it’s one of the best ways of marketing, a bit RV: (11:17) Paid marketing. You get paid to market. AJV: (11:19) That’s really good. And I think for all of you out there who were like, I want to be a speaker and I want to scale my speaking business. You also have to be asking yourself, what’s my backend. RV: (11:31) Yeah. If you want to build a business, otherwise you just, you have a job and you’ll go play in the plane, the plane, right. AJV: (11:36) Needs, age, 70, 80, whatever. You’re not going to want to do that. Or your wife isn’t or your kids. Aren’t like, at some point you don’t want to be gone 200 days a year, right. Unless you’re living the single live live in Lavita loca. Totally fine. But I would bet for most of you out there where this seems like a, uh, a passion and I loved, and this is last thing I’ll say, he said, just remember, like speaking is my job. It is not my passion. And he said, my passion is my family. That I’m not saying that it has to be yours, but speaking is my job. It’s not my passion. So it’s speaking a job for you or is it your passion and what does that look like in terms of growth and scale and money and how does that? RV: (12:22) Yeah, I would totally agree with that. It’s a job. It’s a great job, not a great business. Now you can like, like any job, you can work a job for your whole career and make enough money. And then, and then retire. And AJV: (12:35) We know plenty of seven figure speakers. You can make tons of money. RV: (12:39) Yeah. Just know that on the front end, like you’re saying, it’s like, that’s not going to be the way that you scale a huge business. Um, so my last one is actually, it’s an ageism, honestly, it’s from you. And there was something that Dave said that, you know, a lot of things he said that really reminded me of, I think, a philosophy that you carry, that I’ve always admired, that I have also found to be true, that I think you believe, and you practice really well, which is that everyone becomes a customer eventually. Like if you stay in touch, like they may not book you this year. They may not look us next year, but they’re gonna, if you treat them well and you care about them and you stay in front of them and you just follow up with them, everyone buys eventually. And I think that that is something that, you know, he was saying that just really reminded me of just like, yeah, you’ve got to have a process here, you know, the system and stay in touch. RV: (13:36) And just, especially in the speaking world, I feel like if you get really good, like if you’re following the brand builder journey stuff, and like, you’re doing the things we’re telling you to do in terms of crafting your positioning and building your marketing and all that sort of stuff, at some point, you’re going to be really good. And once you become really, really good, you know, if you’re not already, well, yeah. Some of you already are already. I mean, we can all get better. We can all get better. But when you’re really, really good, these meeting planners and companies, they need to hire you. They have to book somebody. And at some point, if you’re really good, they’re gonna go with you. If you’ve stayed in touch with them for five, six, seven, eight, 10 years, like at some point it’s just timing, AJV: (14:22) But that’s with any good business model, right? You provide enough value and have a good longterm followup strategy longterm. You know, I have this concept, which I guess I’m what you’re referring to is it’s not, no, it’s just not right now. That is my philosophic. Belief with all customers, with all prospects who don’t buy, it’s not, no, it’s just not right now. Um, and so, um, again, consent, she’s concise defying. RV: (14:52) She’s concise defying me. AJV: (14:55) Yeah, it’s true. It’s like you got to have a strategic and methodical plan when Dave talked a lot about that and gave lots of tips. Like if you want to build a speaking business, you need to go and listen to the interview of somebody who truly is at doing it for the long haul. He’s had a very consistent and sustainable speaking business for 20 years. Um, and he gives a lot of tips away. So you really do need to go check out the interview. We’re pulling out some of the things that we took away, but there’s so much that we did not cover. RV: (15:23) Yep. Very methodical process. And I would also say, you know, in a world of virtual keynotes, all of this still applies if not even more. And, um, yeah. So go check out the interview, get to meet one of my best buddies, Dave Afrin. Uh, thanks for listening to AIG and I banter and hopefully share some highlights that are useful for you. We love you. We’ll catch you next time. Bye. Bye. AJV: (15:45) [inaudible].

Ep 88: Building A Sustainable Speaking Business with David Avrin

RV: (00:06) Hey, brand builder, Rory Vaden here. Thank you so much for tuning in to listen to this interview, we are so excited to bring you this information and wanted to let you know that, Hey, there’s no sales pitch coming from anything that we do with this is all our value add to you and the community. However, if you are somebody who is looking for specific strategies on how to build and monetize your personal brand, we would love to talk to you and we offer a free call to everyone that’s interested in getting to know us and is willing to give us a chance to get to know them and share a little bit about what we do. So if you’re interested in taking us up on a free strategy call, you can do that at brand builders, group.com/summit. Call brand builders, group.com/summit. Call, hope to talk to you soon on with the show. RV: (01:02) So you have an opportunity. You’re about to learn from one of the first people and one of the most important mentors in my life. And certainly in the trajectory of my career, David Avrin has become one of my closest friends and he was one of the first people I met on my journey when I was just a young kid with a dream. And so technically, so here’s what David does today. He’s gonna talk, we’re gonna, I’m going to interview him to share with you his process. He has a very systematic process for acquiring keynotes and growing a keynote business. And we’ll talk about why that’s important, but as a speaker, he is one of the most in demand customer experience and marketing speakers in the world today. And he speaks all over the world, Singapore, Bangkok and tour bueno Situs, Srilanka Brisbane, Johannesburg, I mean, London, Barcelona, Dubai on and on and on. RV: (02:04) And he’s speaking for companies like Harley Davidson, Remax, PPG ups, and he’s the author of a couple of books. Okay. so it’s not who, you know, it’s who knows you visibility marketing and then his latest book, why customers leave and how to win them back, which was named by Forbes as one of the seven business books that entrepreneurs need to read. So he has done it and he has spent a lot of time teaching people like myself. And it, those of you that are members of ours, you know, when you go through our phase one experience and we talk about the brand DNA helix, and I talk about questions, like what have you earned the right to talk about? You’ll hear me quote, that that is directly from David Avrin. What problem do you solve? What do you do better than anyone else in the world? These are, these are things that I learned from this man. So brother, thank you for making some time to come on the show. DA: (03:01) Well, I am humbled. I am honored and, and isn’t it ironic over the years that when we look back to that was decades ago, when we all started our friendship, our relationship and how much we’ve learned from each other over the years, I, I loved the idea when the master becomes the student and the student becomes the master and you were a kid and you no longer now you have kids of your own. And and I love seeing where you are. I love being able to have these conversations and then letting other people listen into what it is that we talk about, but we continue to learn from each other because the world is changing. And so how we do what we do has to change as well. RV: (03:40) Yeah. Well, amen to that. And I think one of the things in recent years, and this is, this is where I kind of, you know, I definitely want to step into the student’s seat here again, because I’ve been so impressed. I mean, you, you kind of like, we’re a marketing consultant. And so you were advising companies on that, and then you were advising speakers on that, and then you kind of stepped into becoming a speaker and then you built this really fast speaking career. And one of the things that I love about how, how you’ve done it is, is, you know, too many people teach the business of speaking like, well, Hey, you throw up a website or you, you do a demo video and people just come or Hey, you write a book and people just come, but it’s not that way. It’s never been that way. And most people don’t have such a systematic process that they follow and, and watching you develop that I think has been inspiring for me because I think it’s something that is teachable and it’s scalable versus, Hey, you know, you gotta become famous. And then you’re a speaker. DA: (04:47) I think it’s the only thing that’s scalable. I mean, that’s, that’s the whole point of it. I think it’s, it’s, I think the tragedy of our profession, whether you are a professional speaker or you just speak as part of what you do to share your message and build your audience, whether it’s consulting or otherwise as well. I think the big tragedy of our profession is all of the false information of what it takes to be successful in doing this. And we have, and I think you’ll agree with this one. It always makes me smile a little bit that I think we’re the only profession for those of us who actually do this for a living where most people become speakers, because they’re encouraged to become speakers by people who have no idea what it’s like to be a speaker, right? It’s like, you have to tell that story. DA: (05:29) You got to go and inspire people. And all of those people say, listen, I just want to touch people’s lives. I want to, I want to share when to help inspire people and sheer joy, you know, it’s like, yeah, don’t quit your day job. I mean, it doesn’t mean that we can’t do that. It doesn’t mean we can’t inspire people, but the reality is this is a business and meeting planners. Aren’t going to pay you $10,000 for you to have a cathartic experience on stage. They’re going to pay you $8,500 for you to live your life’s dream, touching people’s lives. However, they will pay you to solve a problem of theirs now in doing so you can live your dream. You can, you can, you know, indulge your passion, but this is a business and speaking, isn’t speaking, isn’t a business. Getting the gig is the business. DA: (06:14) And that’s the key that most people don’t realize you and I both know that most people will enter and leave this profession within two years, because they’re literally starving because they took it. I took a class on storytelling or hand gestures, and why won’t my phone raise like pick up the freaking phone. And so what, what you talked about sort of very quickly, I don’t know that it was quickly. I’ve been doing this for over 20 years now. And I am a 20 year overnight success in that we spend a lot of time myself and my staff in learning what works and what doesn’t, and what doesn’t work is, is promoting your passion. And here’s what I, it it’s solving somebody’s problem. Now, if you can connect what you’re really good at and what you really love to do with a problem, somebody willing to pay to solve, you have magic. You have Nirvana, you have the chance of being successful in this business. RV: (07:08) I love that. I love that. What you said there about speaking, isn’t the business, getting the speaking gig is the business. And that’s like that one insight alone, I think, is just people overlooked DA: (07:25) Dramatically. We, we love inspiring people. We love teaching. We are by definition. I think all of your brand builders, of course, I’m part of your brand builders group as well. We’re all teachers, to an extent, aren’t we, we have something that we want to share with somebody. We believe something, we know something we’ve learned, and we want to impart that to others. And we can do it through consulting and online courses and books and everything else, but it’s not about us. And this is where this is where I will differ from some very big names who talk about it’s important that people buy your why. And I don’t think they buy your why. I think they buy their why. I think you have to be very clear on your why you have to know why you’re doing what you’re doing, but you have to connect it to their why, why are they buying? DA: (08:10) What is their problem? What is their challenge? What are they looking for? And not everybody has a problem. I mean, sometimes their problem. My problem is I just need a bigger flat screen TV than Phil does down the street. That’s an, that’s a, that’s a that’s my, my problem is I need a bigger snowblower than my, in my neighbors. But but speaking in general for no matter what you do, if speaking as a part of it, there is a process and the system. And, but don’t confuse that with automation. Cause I’m not an automation guy. I am everything for us. It’s very highly personalized. And I think part of our success in finding and converting paid speaking gigs is that we are very systematic in our approach, but very personalized in our outreach. Does that make sense? Say that again. You’re very say that again. DA: (08:57) We’re very, we’re very systematized in our approach. We have a process in this system that helps us be efficient with our time. It helps us to make sure that the activities that we’re engaged in are effective activities. They are strategic. We know why we’re doing what we’re doing and when we’re doing it, but how we’re doing it is not about how many can we do as quickly as we can. It’s very easy to get a list of associations, craft a general email and send it out to everybody in 45 seconds. And it’s the worst possible approach ever because you’re just going to be thrown in the bucket with everybody else who spams them with that information. So that’s super efficient, but it’s not effective. Part of what makes us very effective. And we are, is that we take the time to look up every prospect. DA: (09:52) That would be a good fit for what I do right now. I talk about customer experience as a meaningful, competitive advantage. I speak to corporate audiences and association audiences about how to achieve advantage over their competitors by being remarkably easy to do business with. And so as we call that list and go through and see which one would be an appropriate audience for me, like if somebody is in business and they’re in a competitive marketplace, it’s a great audience. So the national for the international glove manufacturers, which is a big deal, of course, during the Corona virus, it’s a thing I’ve spoken for them before. That’s a great audience for me, but the national society of operating room nurses, not a good audience for me. They’re not in business. They’re not competing against other amazing people, but not an approach for me. So strategically we would never pitch them because it’s wasting time. Cause they would never hire me. So we’re very selective in terms of we will buy lists or on the, on the association side, on the, on the government side, on the corporate side. RV: (10:58) So can we, can we, can we tell about that? I wanna, I wanna cause I wanna, I want to hit that part first. Cause I do think a lot of people miss that step and, and I think even that as a first step, there’s a lot of people that go, Oh my gosh, I didn’t know. You could do that. And then the ones that do it, they buy a list. They send a broadcast email to everybody, nobody buys and they say this to them. DA: (11:21) It didn’t work. Right. RV: (11:24) How do you get the list though? Let’s like, sure, do you, where do you go together? DA: (11:28) Let me back up. First of all, not only does it not work, but you’ve actually just poisoned the well for future outreach that you’re gonna do. So there’s listen. A lot of places. I will be honest. My staff does a lot of this. So I’ve got you know, Tiffany’s met with me for almost nine years. So there’s association list. You can look them online. A lot of them are free. The Hoover’s list, which is the Dunn and Bradstreet for of us who grew up in business dun and Bradstreet is probably the most current UpToDate corporate database of major associates or not association, corporate executives, personnel it’s updated constantly. And so the mailing list sort of part of that is called Hoovers. So if you look at Hoovers, it is not inexpensive. You know, it might be, I think as much as $3,000 or so for a year. DA: (12:21) But, but for many of us, that’s 15 minutes on stage with one gig, the advantage elite to sort of go through both of these. Cause I think this is really meaningful for those who are, who are listening the association side, they tend to pay a little bit less, but every association, every industry has an annual meeting or multiple meetings look around the room wherever you are right now, listening to this or watching this, everything you see in that room. Somebody makes that, and they have an annual meeting. So the lights and the switches and the, and the fixtures, everything you see there, a there an association and they meet every year, look them up. And here’s what we do. We go to one of the associations that we go through a little matrix. So with everyone we look up, we look up, when is their next meeting? DA: (13:06) We, we market in their, in, in our form. When was their last meeting, who were their speakers? So we’re you and I have been around the business for a long time. We know who’s basically making what, if you don’t know, just go online and look them up. You can get a general idea of what their fee is. So if I see some very big names, if I see a Rory Vaden or a Jay bear or a, or a Sally Hawk said, I have a pretty good idea of what they paid for that person. Last year, we look at when their, when their next meeting is coming up, coming up. So we get all that information phone numbers, everything else. And then that’s in our database and our CRM we’ll use that to craft a personalized pitch letter. Now we’re not writing them all from scratch. DA: (13:48) 95% of is done, but we will tailor their name, the name of their event. We’ll pitch me as a good prospect for it. And it’s about how many of those can we crank out, but they’re very personalized. They’re different one at a time and we’re sending them one at a time. But, but think about it this way. If you were able to do, maybe it takes you 20 minutes or so, and you could do maybe three an hour and you treated this like a job. Cause it’s a job that people sleep until noon. You know, I mean, success is being willing to do the things that other people aren’t willing to do. Where did I learn? Where did I learn that and take the stairs. And so if you treat this like a job and safe it four hours a day of just pitching and you could do three an hour. So that’s three times four that’s 12, a day, times, five days a week. That’s 60 organizations who now know who you are, who wouldn’t have known otherwise multiply that in a month. That’s 240 organizations. You’ve with a personalized, tailored pitch, which makes you stand out from others as well as somebody said to us, how are you converting such a big portion, big percentage of the pitches that you’re, that you’re sending out. I want to hear that quickly. And I, and I say, I don’t think we are, but RV: (15:09) Yeah. So, and I do want to hear about that process, but one of the things I think that stands out to me and what you described is there, isn’t a magic list. It’s not like there’s some secret list that you know about that no one else knows about it’s the same place you’d buy any lists, the business journal, you Google stuff like it’s, there’s not like a magic clean list that has it. And some of those lists are probably inaccurate and you’re sorting through some of that. And when you send the email, you get a bounce back and you got to call them DA: (15:38) While we do do some of the research, we look up something and think, well, that takes some time. Sure. And for what we get paid, we’re not selling widgets. You know, if you’re at, whether you’re at $7,500 or $15,000 for a keynote, we make a really good living for what it is that we do. It is worth that investment. If you’re doing that and you’re doing 12 a day or five a day, it’s more than you’re doing now. And you’ve got a hundred pitches. If you pull out three or four gigs in a month, that’s more than 99% of the people in the world will make, this is a job. You got to treat it like a job. And so, but you also have to be very strategic in how you pitch. When we craft our letters. For example, we give them an easy out at the end of the very first paragraph we say, I think David David ever would be a great fit for your, your event, blah, blah, blah. DA: (16:28) And this coming up on this date so that we know, they know we did some research. If you want to skip the rest of this letter, click on this link to watch his preview video. You’ll know in a few short minutes, why he’s one of the most popular customer experience speakers in the world today? We give them a digital link in an analog letter letter, essentially, right too. I’ll say that again, just because it kind of jumped down in case you want to take this quote, it’s a digital Lincoln, an analog letter that allows them to skip everything else to skip ahead. Cause everything we do is about getting them to watch my preview video. If they, that is our one key factor that is our leading indicator. People will watch my preview video, which is pretty good. It’s got me speaking around the world. DA: (17:13) If they watch that I’ve got a good shot of getting the gig. If they don’t watch it, I have zero chance. So there’s a whole bunch of other things that we don’t have time to go into in terms of what they need to make this successful. But in terms of our process, we will go through. Now, let me talk about the other side. So that’s the association site and it’s just it’s work. It’s being clear on who your audience is. Don’t pitch and waste time on ones that aren’t make sure it’s personalized. And your whole goal is one of two things. Either get them on the phone or get them to watch your video. And if you can get one of those two things, you got a good chance. Knowing the corporate side, they tend to have a bigger budget. The problem is, and this is the Hoover’s list and others is they don’t post anything in terms of their events because they’re not public. DA: (17:57) And so you’re kind of going in a little bit blind in terms of pitching a specific event, but we have a strategy for both of those. So our strategy is it’s timing, it’s followup. And I’m happy to give you some of what that is. I mean, there’s certain days that we pitch in certain days that we don’t write no pitching on Fridays. Cause even if somebody likes you, they’ll forget about you by Monday, it’s all trial and error. Friday is when we’re, we’re filling out RFPs, which is contrary once again to what most speakers will tell you don’t fill out RFPs. They’re just for breakouts. Nobody pays. I made six figures on RFPs last year, six figures, but we have a template. So we just cut and paste. Here’s our takeaways. Here’s the, you know, what are the three takeaways from session, outcomes, outcomes, all stuff. DA: (18:47) And so we just cut and paste and we’ve got it now. Cause we’ve done so many. If it’s a healthcare organization, if it’s retail or restaurant or, or financial services, which we do a lot of, we can cut and paste and get those in. Some of those have turned into keynotes, but what else are you doing on a Friday? Now, granted, there’s a lot in, in, through the brand builders group. Of course you, you teach a lot of great systems and processes, but the best way to get in front of people as you build your audience, as you build your visibility is to treat the speaking part as a business. And we do so, and we’ve had good success because of it. RV: (19:21) Yeah. You know, and I think that’s, it’s really interesting. I say this a lot to people as much as we’re virtual and you know, automated and scalable and all these things that we talk about, the there’s still, nothing does such an effective job as converting someone who is a complete stranger, never heard of you to an absolute lifelong raving fan in one hour as being in the same room, physically with you watching you do a P a well-polished crafted and delivered keynote, which there’s a lot to it, but that is the shortest distance between stranger and raving fan. Now we try to emulate that with a webinar experience online DA: (20:09) And you can to an extent, and I do that as well. We use all the vehicles in venues that we can, yeah, RV: (20:15) It does. It does to some, some, some fraction or percentage of that. But I think that the tricky thing about the speaking business, like what you’re saying that I really love is I go, it is a job. You have to treat it as a job. And the bomber is that it’s not super scalable. Like you have finite inventory. Now you could still make a couple million bucks. DA: (20:37) Maybe I can be a one stage at a time. I can be on one airplane at a time. But that said, the effectiveness during that interaction is, is Speaker 4: (20:48) Infinitely greater than the, you can, you can have 10,000 people on a call or you can have 500 people in an audience, but the impact you’re going to have on those people is going to be that much more so. And nobody knows that better. And I’ll brag for you for a minute. Then Rory Vaden, who at a very young age, as a young kid was top 10 in the world for world championship of public speakers. The next year, he was second in the world in the world, like 25,000 people started, but there’s something about charisma and there’s something about about communication and that, and yet you’re not equals. Here’s the other thing that that is so beneficial for what we do. When you have an opportunity to get that stage, you are not equals, you are not meeting Ida. You are elevated both figuratively. Speaker 4: (21:33) And literally they’re seeing somebody who is a passionate messenger for whatever it is that they’re espousing and you have a captive audience and they’re listening to you and if you are practicing and it doesn’t mean that you’re overly rehearsed, but you know what you’re saying, you’re teaching what you do. There is a power in that. And if you are, as we are generally, pardon the gender specific reference. If we’re the good guys and we’re teaching something that is important, that’s going to help them and benefit their lives. There is a power in that and it’s, and it’s, and it’s using that power for good, as opposed to using those super powers for evil. But in terms of galvanizing them as followers, as somebody who wants to know more, that’s why people line up for us afterwards to get a signed copy of our book and to take a picture with us. Speaker 4: (22:23) It’s surreal, right? It’s not real. Most people don’t have jobs where people clap for them. At the end of the day I come home and my, my beautiful wife is like, Hey, big deal, go take out the trash, like planting trees, my backyard yesterday. But that moment there is something surreal. There’s something powerful. And it certainly energizes us. And I am passionate about what I do, but this isn’t my passion. It’s my job. My passion is my children. I love what I do. I’m doing exactly what I should be doing, but my passion is my family. And so that, that part of, as sort of dovetail of what you were saying of being able to be on stage, it’s a really effective way to deliver your content in a way where everybody is touch. You, you can’t sit back in your office and throwing a tennis ball against the wall during a, you know, during a webinar. That doesn’t happen when we’re on stage. RV: (23:19) Yeah. And, and I, you know, I was processing it too, is like, I think speaking is the greatest job in a world, but it’s not a great business because it doesn’t actually scale beyond you, but it’s the best form of marketing for a business that ever could be it’s. So it’s like you have this great job on the front end and Speaker 4: (23:42) Treat it right. It feeds into whatever the, whatever RV: (23:46) The business is on the backend. That is the scalable, that is the scalable thing. But that front part of it, of just going, it starts, it starts with a list. It starts with figuring out who to reach out to, and then tell us about the followup process a little bit, Dave. So you have that first outreach, your first outreach, there is a, is a, is a tailored email. That’s what I hear you. Right? Speaker 4: (24:10) We actually have a schedule and I don’t mind sharing it with you. We have a video series that we weave to do a, a live bootcamp that we just don’t do any more than we recorded it. But here’s our basic process we pitch on on Tuesday and Wednesday. Sometimes on Thursday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday pitches might go out. It’s the first email. And as soon as we do in our CRM system, as soon as we send that first email, we set a task to follow up in two weeks with another one. If we get no response, we’ll follow up in two weeks, but here’s something different than we do. So on Friday we actually send a hard copy brochure letter, follow up saying, Hey, we sent you an email last week. We send them on Fridays for a reason, because it’s a hard snail mail. Speaker 4: (24:55) It’ll arrive on Tuesday or Wednesday of the next week. So now we’ve gotten two touches one week apart, one virtual, one physical. If we get no response from them in our CRM system, we’ll get a tickler two weeks later, that will say follow up with so and so, so we have a second email and here’s, what’s interesting. Our response for the second email is three times what it is for the first email, to an extent, I think people go, Oh gosh, I was going to get back to her or whatever, because we get, we all get overwhelmed every day. We try and work really hard to make sure it’s not spam, right? So the second one emails are very simple. One, Hey, sent you a pitch, but David ever would be a good fit. Let us know if there if we can find a time to talk and, and we’ll get response, it doesn’t mean they all say yes. Speaker 4: (25:42) Some say, Oh, I’m so sorry. We’re not meeting till whenever or something else. If they don’t respond to that, we do not reach out a fourth time. So it’s two virtual, one physical, and it’s all within a two week period. If we don’t hear back, we don’t reach out again. We just put them back in there and we set a responder for the following year. Now here’s the most important part, and this is our big secret that I’m going to give out to everybody and I’m not selling it. Oh. And, and this is people who paid thousands to come to our boot camp, which we don’t do anymore. It’s the win because our business tends to book eight to 18 months out in the U S overseas. They’ll do a shorter time period. When I’m, I was just in Mumbai India, we launched our book out there. Sometimes they’ll book six weeks out, but here we generally do that. So RV: (26:32) 17 to 18 months, that’s what he’s 18 months Speaker 4: (26:35) Sort of when the window book out. But here’s when they start the process. This is the important part. If we look up an organization and let’s just pretend people are listening to this right now, and it’s may, and their event is coming up in July, they’ve already got their suite. We’re not going to pitch them. Now if their event is in July or August, because don’t forget about us. So what we do is we always give them 60 days from their last event before we pitch this, honestly, for those of you listening, who will do something, this is worth a hundred, $200,000, just this tip of knowing when to pitch them. So if we reach somebody and their events coming up, we just put a tickler in the system for 60 days. From that date, it’ll pop up on our screen. We know into pitch them. Speaker 4: (27:21) If we pitched them too soon, they forget about us because they’re already in the throws of their event, scheduling take a monk off. And then they’ll start thinking about when to form their committee to work on the following year. And so it’s been very successful. We’ve learned it’s taken nine years to, to decipher this part of it. So whenever their event is 60 days from that is the day that we pitch where sometime within the next couple of months after, but never before that. And that alone gets us so many more responses. And everybody’s in the system. Our goal is to get them to click on my video. And then once, if they say within that two week period, if they come back with any kind of interest, this is about taking a contact and turning it into a lead and a lead into a prospect and a prospect into a paid speaking gig. Speaker 4: (28:11) And we know what influences each step of us. Initially, there were contacts or just somebody we have in the system. The minute we email them, they become a lead. And if they respond in any way, other than how did you get my information, please stop emailing me. They become a prospect. And so if they say, yeah, we’re interested, send us some information. We’ll then, then all the rains are offering and we love them up. We send them a signed copy of the book. We set up a I’ll do a virtual, a BombBomb video email message to them. We will send them a try and set up a followup conversation because here’s the reality. I can’t let everything be equal when I know I’m a finalist. I don’t cross my fingers because my competition is guys like Rory Vaden it’s it’s it’s women like Connie Podesta and Sally Hogshead and Peter sheen and just amazing speakers. Speaker 4: (29:07) I can’t let everything be equal because my competitors are phenomenal. So that’s when we really, when we know somebody has an interest, we send them information. I do a video email that tells me where I can talk to them specifically and tell them what I know about their industry. And when I do a BombBomb video email, for those of you understand where bomb bomb, it’s a horrible name for a company, but it’s a great service because we can track the email. We’re over 80% success in landing the gig. But at that point we’ve already know that they have an interest in me. You’re saying if they’re, if start opening your video RV: (29:42) Emails, then you’re like, you’re Speaker 4: (29:44) No, no. I’m saying those who I record a BombBomb video email and send it to a prospect, consort express, some interest, we convert over 80% into paid speaking gigs because I’m granted, they’re already interested. The point is we are methodical about our process. But we’re very personalized in how we do what we do. We just need to be efficient with our time, because most pitches I don’t get. But even when, even when I don’t and they said, we’re going to do you for next year. And my staff will, you know, cause to what extent their part of their compensation is, is a commission and they’re frustrated. It says, okay, I need to pay my mortgage next year too. We play the long game to create a sustainable business in this business is absolutely rare. But to do so and much of what I’ve learned from Marie and AIJ in terms of process, we have to, we treat this like a business and we get, I get up every morning and I look at my beautiful wife and my, my, my absurd house and my high-maintenance children and I get my butt. RV: (30:57) Oh my gosh. That’s so funny. Yeah, I mean, I think that’s probably the, the, the, the, it seems like the big, consistent part here is methodical about the process, but personalized about the pitch. And that is, that is so powerful. And then, like you’re saying playing the long game, I mean, the one thing that AIJ always says that I found to be so true, particularly in the speaking business, not just personal brand at large, but in the speaking business is like, if somebody engages with you, like if you get to that point that they’re engaging with you and you send them a book, if you just stay in touch with that person, they will eventually book you. It may not be this year. It may not be next year, but if they have engaged with you at all, it’s like, eventually that person is going to book you just because at some point it becomes easy for them to do it because they trust you just for the sake of the matter that you have been around forever. Speaker 4: (32:05) Right? Well, and sometimes those people book you and they no longer work for the same place that they worked before. You just rubber organization. And then they book you. RV: (32:16) Yes. When they book you and then they move and then they book you again for the exact same. Speaker 4: (32:21) We had a thing last January, not this January a year ago, January, I did. I had two gigs that Tiffany and my office had been working on for three years. And it was just, it was weird, but literally three years that she’d been working on both of them and two very big organizations, and it’s not like she was bugging them. It’s just, she pitched them. We didn’t get the gig and put them back in the system. We pitched them again the next year, sometimes it was a tweak or it was a new keynote tide or something else. And ultimately it booked and she made the point that she’s not like I’m going crazy. She’s like just, it comes up in my system. We do a crafted pitch and we don’t get it. We pitch them again next year because the organization isn’t going into wasn’t going away. Speaker 4: (33:03) So I get down to Phoenix. I’m, I’m speaking for this organization. I walk in the door and the guy says to me, he goes, your assistant is a pit bull. And I just, she has persistent. And of course it went great. And they booked me a second time since which is, which is wonderful. But I, and to be clear, I love what I do. You love what you do, but the only way I get to do it, as much as I want to do it is by treating it like a business. And so the delivery part of it is the part that we all love. Even when I, when I’m there and they’re asking me like, well, how much more for this? And Tiffany in my office, she tells client. She says, Oh, you’re just paying for him to leave his kids. He loves it. He’ll, he’ll do as much as you want while he’s there. You want him to facilitate your lunchtime panel discussion. You want to break out, even though he loves this, but, but the fee is for him to leave, to leave his family, but he loves doing this. So we very much treat like a business and have been able to grow and scale in terms of the the other offerings as well. RV: (34:08) I absolutely love that. So I got one more question for you before that. Where should people go if they, if they wanna learn about Dave Avar? And if you have a video, I mean, if you have a video course somewhere, we’ll put a link to that. Speaker 4: (34:22) Sure. Here, my speaking and consulting, look, we have a David [inaudible] dot com and it’s a V R I N. David alburn.com and my, my greatest initiative and part of what I learned from Rory Vaden, as well as I, every wonderful subscription model initiative that I’ve launched, I think is the most powerful work I’ve ever done. If you look at customer experience, advantage.com, you can see some samples, great URL, just customer experience, advantage.com take a look and and reach out. I’m not hard to find and look my name up online, and I’ve got videos and, and everything else, but I appreciate the opportunity with my, my little brother, my best buddy, for all these years. I’ve loved watching your success and in holding and squishing your babies. And I couldn’t be more impressed and proud with of what you’ve done and who you are. So there’s me sucking up to you a little bit, but how fun is this when you think about where we were 20 plus years ago? RV: (35:29) I mean, it’s, it’s crazy, Dave, and, and I’m so grateful for you. I mean, I, I literally just in so much of what teaching now is built upon the tenants and the principles and foundations that you shared with me that, you know, I paid you in chips and appetite, Speaker 4: (35:48) Nacho cheese. Yeah. I was to say, RV: (35:52) And that we now sell for thousands of dollars. Speaker 4: (35:58) We’re all helping each other, but isn’t that, isn’t that the best part about the brand builders group and everything else that you do is there is a, there’s a community of people who are learning and sharing best practices. And some of them will ultimately become best practices because they’re new practices. And until we realize what works and what doesn’t, but what a perfect time to get into this business, but what you do and what UNH and your team do is you help people slice 10 years off their learning curve and to be able to, to share their message and their, and their brand and build all of that and do it in a shorter period of time, it gets them to the port where they can do the work that is impactful much, much sooner. And and I applaud you for that. RV: (36:47) Well, thank you. And so here’s, my last little thought is if, if, if there were somebody listening right now, right? Think of me, think of me 20 years ago, or even yourself, you know, 20 years ago, in many ways it was like just stepping into the industry. Now they kind of, they have the dream, right? Like Speaker 4: (37:05) What, you know, what, what is the, RV: (37:08) What is the one thing that you feel like they, you know, they need to know, or they need to, they need to hear in terms of, you know, being able to go, this can become a sustainable way to feed your family and make a difference in the world. Speaker 4: (37:27) You know what I, I, and I, I want you to listen and take this in the right way, because it will make sense. It’s not about you, but it’s not in lieu of you. Does that make sense? So it is about them. It’s what can you do for them? But it’s what is special in you? What you’ve learned, what you can do, your unique gifts and how you can apply that to better somebody else’s life or their business. So I think the biggest mistake people make is they get so caught up in their own story and who they are that they forget. There’s an old exercise that says, take everything you’ve written about yourself and your sales sheets, your brochures, your website, and look at all the content and everything you say about yourself. You highlight in green and everything you say about your customers or clients or prospects and their life and their business. Speaker 4: (38:16) And when you highlight in yellow and they’re supposed to be more yellow than green, but there never is. Cause we do most of our time talking about ourselves. It has to be about them, but it’s not in lieu of you. So it’s not just what is there, what is your unique way of helping them, your unique that you can apply to better their situation or life. So they’re both very important. The challenge that most have is, are so focused on their passion. You, I just want to impact people. I just want to spread joy. People are going to pay for that, but they will. If you can do that in a way that helps them. So the advice I would give is, is, is uni clarity on the front end? What are you really good at? And how does that impact somebody else in a positive way? Speaker 4: (39:04) And that’s the key to the messaging is what do, it’s not what you do. It’s what they get and how you do it is important. And some people will be too, there’ll be too stringent in through this thing. It’s not about you. It’s all about them. It’s not all about them, but it is about them. But, but it’s, it’s what you can do. So don’t focus all on. You. Don’t focus on them, but it’s, it’s be clear on the front end and feel free to, to work with others in online chats, with your social group, your, your mastermind groups and others to try things out. But ultimately it has to be, what’s slipped down to what it is you provided. I love it. Well, thank you brother. We appreciate you. And I appreciate you as well to you and your family and your lovely, amazing kids and yours as well. My friend [inaudible].

Ep 86: Embracing Vulnerability as Your Superpower with Dave Hollis

What if you’d worked hard so hard to create a brand with all the right optics and suddenly, it all came crashing down? Dave Hollis, today’s guest, experienced this when his wife Rachel wrote her renowned book, Girl, Wash Your Face. Rather than having the devastating effects he feared, Dave instead witnessed more authentic connections […]

Ep 85: Using Elevated Realism to Build the Visual Identity of Your Brand with Nick Onken | Recap Episode

Speaker 1: (00:06) RV: (00:06) Welcome to the recap edition of the influential personal brand podcast. We’re breaking down our friend, Nick on kin master celebrity photographer. I don’t know what else to say. Photographer guru photographer, extraordinary, extraordinary. The champion of all or so rent photography. I don’t know. Amazing guy, super powerful interview. And of course joined by my wife, our CEO, AIG Vaden. Why don’t you, why don’t you kick us off? What did you think? AJV: (00:37) Yeah. And I’m actually going to refer to my notes because this is one of those interviews where you kind of just get lost in the conversation. Nick is so conversational, he’s just just kind of a wealth of knowledge. And so I’m going to refer to my notes. I had five main points try to fit, but I’m going to try to fit them and still make them all fit. So my first one is just that great reminder that people connect to you through seeing photos of you and this digital landscape that we live in and the virtual atmosphere and how most of us are interacting today. It’s a, that the pictures of you that you post on social media is how people connect with you. And, you know, I know so many friends and, you know, professional and personal colleagues who say, well, I, you know, social media is just not for me. AJV: (01:23) Or I just do it for personal, or I only do it for professional. And we’re in this really interesting time where well kind of digital is the way, and that is how people connect to you and see you as human. Like this is the human interface and that is that personal dialogue. And you know, it’s interesting. I was at a friend’s house this weekend and she, she had her friend over there who I had never met before. And she said, yeah, I told her to follow you a few months ago. And she said, I know that you post like tons and tons of stuff about personal branding. And I was like, Oh yeah, you probably haven’t seen any of that. All I really post is pictures of my kids. And she said, actually, I really enjoy just getting to know you and your family. She goes, I love the fact that I’m meeting you for the first time. And I actually feel like I already know you. RV: (02:18) I didn’t know this. You didn’t, I didn’t real. I missed this. AJV: (02:20) Yeah. We were in the kitchen and she said, actually, I’ve seen your kids kind of grow up over the last six months. And you know, I have a one-year-old and we have a one year old, I had a role in it. You did. And it was just really interesting to me. I was like, man, I’m behind, I’m behind the game here. I’m behind the eight ball. I, I don’t know you. And I don’t know your three kids. And I felt really behind because she was like, yeah, I’ve been following you. She goes, I love the pictures of your kids. I love seeing your family. She goes, your kids are so cute. And she already knew so much. And it’s like, we all, it was like almost gave us a launching pad for this new friendship, for this new conversation. And I had never really viewed it through that lens before. And I actually felt like I was missing out because I didn’t have that same background knowledge on her. And it was this very weird aha moment. And so when Nick talks about in the interview of, Hey, we connect to people through seeing pictures of them, it was this great aha coming to fruition and this very first encounter of wow, that really, that really connects, that really makes RV: (03:30) It’s almost like it accelerates the relationship and so many ways. And I think it’s funny cause our feeds are probably completely inverse. Mine’s almost entirely business. I share. I do share personal stuff in stories, but not even that often. And yours is almost entire, your feed is entirely personal. So like many things, when you add a Rory in an ADJ, you have a great, you’ve got a great thing, but yeah, well, that’s super powerful. I, you know, Nick said that the camera sometimes adds a few pounds to 10 pounds. I’ve never met a camera that had less than 20 pounds to me, but I wasn’t upset by that. And my biggest takeaway from, from him, which is, I think what his thing is all about is elevated realism. And it reminded me of what Kristen Giza said a few weeks ago about TV. RV: (04:20) I think she called it heightened authenticity, the similar, like it’s like be yourself, but bigger, like you know, and a simple tactic in just that phrase, I think is super powerful, elevated realism. And when you look at his photos of Justin Bieber or of, you know, any of the people that he’s taken, you, you see this like, Oh, that’s what it looks like. I think of Louis behind the hot air balloons, Louis, they did a photo shoot. It really did. I mean, well, and so this was a tactical point that, you know, for someone I’ve never put a lot of stock stock in photography pun intended I have, but as someone learning a lot more about it and placing a much higher value on it, a simple tactic of make sure the background of your photo is a part of telling the story. And I thought that was just a super simple thing that like, you know, it’s, we underestimate, it’s like a very subconscious thing of what’s going on in the background, but particularly when you’re, you’re, you’re doing elevated realism and you’re, you’re producing an energy and an emotion with a photo that sort of faded background, but like whatever it is contributes a lot to that. And I thought it was both a tactical tip tip and also like a very artistic tip for how to do that. So that was a big, big one for me AJV: (05:45) Positions into my second, third, fourth point. I’ll put into one, which is make sure that your pictures and your captions make sense. RV: (05:54) Oh yeah. That’s really simple. Hashtag what was it girls with? Irrelevant captions. AJV: (06:01) Well, how’s it gotta be just girls Nick, come on. But yeah, I just, I think that was really an aha moment. Cause you know, I spent a ton of time looking at pictures and reading captions I’m in social media by trade quite a bit. And I just thought it was really interesting and you know, so I started actually going back through some of our teammates profiles while I was like listening to the podcast and I was like, Oh yeah, make a note. I’ll make a note there. And it was like one of those like aha moments where it’s like, okay, if you’re fully dressed, standing by the edge of an ocean or by the edge of a pool. And it’s like, great, first of all, that makes no sense to me. Why are you in a suit by the ocean? And then too, like reading the captions and I’m like, Oh, okay. AJV: (06:42) Yeah, I totally get what he’s saying. And I already knew that where it’s like, Hey, if you’re in a bikini or if you’re shirtless a shirtless male why are you like, you know, posting about deep thought and you know, soul searching. And it’s like, is that, are you finding your soul easier? Cause you have no shirt on, I’m not sure like what’s happening there, but it’s like, how are you making sure that your captions in your post connect in an authentic and real way? And are you just picking pictures you like, or do they actually help project the contents? And I thought that was a really good way of looking at it. It’s you know, and I think you could start either way. It’s like, what picture do I have that’s representative of this content that I’m trying to post, but then also what pictures do I love and what does that tell me to say, what does that prompt me to say? RV: (07:33) Well, even the story of that. AJV: (07:35) Yeah. Like what feeling does it, you know, kind of create in me. And I think you could go either way, right? You could start with the content and find the picture, start with the picture and create the content. But I just making sure they connect was a big aha. Yeah. Not necessarily a new one, but Oh yeah. Need to make sure we do that. RV: (07:53) Yeah. Just the little conscious, conscious things like this that will make a huge difference. And I think that it seems like it would be easier to find to, to, to find a picture that you love and then tell a story from, from that. But yeah. So anyways the, my big second, my second big takeaway, which I totally understand with physical products, but didn’t necessarily connect so clearly to personal brands is that different packaging results in different pricing, different packaging results in different pricing. We all know that like the way, you know, when you buy a Coke, like Coke or coffee, or you, you can go, what’s the difference between a Starbucks coffee and a seven 11 or a, you know, whatever air Jordans or what I grew up on, which was air Jordash. Like there’s, there’s certain things that you expect in the packaging, right? Apple has real. Yes. Well, it’s called Jordache, but I called it air door dash, but it was from Payless shoes. AJV: (09:01) Oh yeah. [inaudible] RV: (09:03) I call it air Jordash cause I wanted air Jordans. This is the whole story of my life. All of my ambition comes from the fact that I could not afford air Jordans when I was a kid. And so I wore air Jordache and then I was like, one day, I’m going to be able to buy your Jordans and you still don’t have any, I don’t have any, but, but Jasper got some what’s your sweet anyways. Yeah, Nordstrom rack. I’m on discount. But so your pictures, your photography as a personal brand represents a huge part of your packaging. And it’s, it’s, it’s funny because on the one hand you go, how come this photographer will charge me 500 and this photographer will charge me 5,000, but that’s also probably the difference between you charging 500 and you charging 5,000 for whatever the thing is that your doing. Yeah. And at least making a connection in your mind to go, my photography is directly correlated to the price that I can charge an excellent photography allows me to charge more. It enhances the perception of my credibility. And that was just a really important connection for me. AJV: (10:13) Yeah. Well again, great transition to my next one, which was, I’m literally reading my notes because I tried to capture this. You are creating the perception of what you want people to see you as right? Your pictures, your imagery creates the perception of how you want people to view. You see you as you’re creating the lens and which they put all of their thoughts around you. And I think that to your point, it’s a really big deal. It’s the way that you project yourself and your imagery. It is the perception that people have and you actually have influence over that. All right, these are your pictures. And I think that is a big deal and that is really important. And I really love that. It’s like, Hey, if people see you as one way, well, you can change that. Yeah. Post different images, post different pictures, create different content. AJV: (11:07) You have that power use it and you can do it through your images and your story. And then the other thing that I had kind of noted in this area is that people want to see you as human, which is why I post so many personal, personal pictures. I’ve decided Nick’s interview it’s because I have the human element. That’s, that’s what I’m going with. But I think that’s really important. And, and actually it was really interesting because as I was listening to his interview and I was like looking through my own feed of like, okay, okay, I’ll see how that connects. And I see how that connects. And as I asked myself, I was like, how do I really want people to perceive me? And I think for me, it’s like, yes, I’m the CEO and cofounder brand builders group. And I do all this stuff work-wise but more than anything else I want to be seen as Jasper and Liam’s mom like that truly is, it’s like, that is my number one priority. AJV: (11:58) It’s my number one, calling all thing and breweries wife. Right. You know, I’ll take that child of God all the things, but, you know, I think that was really, it was like an aha moment, the personal things in general. Yeah. Like that I would, I would much rather be seen as a human being versus I CEO or this or that. It’s just, just me. And I think that too is very reflective of what you get in my feet. And that was completely unintentional. Now I will put some intention to that, but it also was an aha moment of RV: (12:34) It could be good to put a business call to action in there every once in a while. AJV: (12:37) I do, I tied it in occasionally. But then I just, you know, that it’s a completely different feed than you would have found two years ago. RV: (12:47) Yeah. And it’s funny to me, cause people will comment on my profile or they’ll message me and they’ll say you have a beautiful family and I’m going, Oh, they must follow AJ. Because I don’t post a ton of the pictures, but like, or they’ll see us and they’ll be like, I love keeping up with your family. And I’m like, Oh, you’ve been following AJ. So, AJV: (13:08) But again, I just thought it was like very interesting.

Ep 84: Using Elevated Realism to Build the Visual Identity of Your Brand with Nick Onken

RV: (00:01) You are about to meet one of my favorite friends, one of my most creative friends, and in, in in some ways one of my most famous friends, but I think it’s like he’s, he could, he’s like the,, the person that is still in some ways undiscovered outside of his trait, which he is a legend in a Nick Onken. And I just think Nick is the coolest guy, has the coolest brand. He’s a world renowned photographer, so that’s his trait and he is a legend in that space. He has photographed personalities like Justin Bieber and Tom Hanks and little John and Jessica Alba. He’s done shoots for global campaigns for international brands like Nike and Coca Cola and Adidas. His work’s been published in magazines like Conde Nast traveler. Cosmo Marie Claire. Like he’s also the host of NION radio podcast where he’s interviewed people like Usher and Scooter Braun and Donna Karan. RV: (01:06) He’s been featured in Fast Company, Huffington post, MTV, and literally his work has just been featured everywhere. He’s also traveled to over 60 countries, seven continents. He’s an author, he’s the author of the travel photography book called Photo Trekking. He is, you know, probably the primary, I guess I would say primary photographer for Lewis Howes, of course, a close friend of ours. And I think yeah, Nick’s just entire personal brand is devoted to inspiring the world to activate their creativity. And it’s like he’s just amazing and you’re about to, you’re about to meet him. So, Nick, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me. Nice to meet y’all. So buddy this is one of, one of the, one of the many reasons why I love you is I feel like you’re really good at something that I don’t consider myself naturally very good at, which is just the visual identity. RV: (02:03) You know, not even just photography, but the visual expression of a brand. And there’s a concept that you shared with us. Well with me about elevated realism. Can you talk about you know, and you know, we don’t have to just stay in the lane of photography, but I’m kinda thinking about just, you know, the, the people listening their, their personal brands and just like building their, their visual presence, whether it’s online or in print or everywhere. But I think one of your uniquenesses is this concept of elevated realism. Can you just explain what that is? Yeah. So, and this is great because I think this is kind of a concept that we, that I’ve used a lot in advertising for big brands for like Coca-Cola and you know, in that world it’s called lifestyle photography is certain to NO: (03:00) A certain extent where you’re kind of manufacturing this, this aspirational world, but lifestyle, like you’re still kind of doing everyday things. And then you combine that with celebrity portraiture in editorial and, and you kind of get this mix of like elevation. You get this mix of, of, you know, authentic realism. So I kind of translated that over to the personal brand from just from doing all this work and what I learned throughout working with all these people. And so, and these brands. And so elevator realism really is that creating an aspirational look which you’d find in a magazine or an ad but also feels real. It feels authentic because you know, as you know to be, to build your personal brand, you want to be guiding people through a process. You want to be seen as a guide and you know, you want, you don’t want to be too far out of reach, but you also want to be relatable. And so that’s kind of the idea of elevated realism is like you’re creating an aesthetic that’s aspirational but yet relatable at the same time. And you know, for me, I, I like, I create storytelling assets around this. So we build, it’s usually driven around a concept of who you are and your brand. So after they’ve worked with you to develop you know, to develop these, these ideas, these concepts of who this person, you know, who they are authentically, then we kind of, we come and create the the creative from that. So RV: (04:27) Interesting. Yeah. So do they come to you like, like one of the exercises we do with people in phase phase one of course you’ve been to our phase one event that we at the very end of phase one, like post that phase one event, we go through brand characteristics lists and we just kind of come up with like words that sort of capture the essence of a person. Is that kind of what you’re talking about here is like, like how do you capture, or what exercises do you go through or take someone through to kind of like clarify what, what energy or what emotion or what they’re trying to convey. And it sounds like you do that first and then you figure out how to stage the shoot. NO: (05:11) Yeah, absolutely. So I have a story diagnostic sheet that I start with, which is probably about 10 to 15. I think it’s 10 to 15 questions that the client fills out and it’s, it’s everything from around like what’s the, the message, the vision, the mission, the message, how do you help people. And it kind of gets people thinking within that. And a lot of times sometimes they’ll work with your team or you know, if they’re working with other people or they’ll just fill it out themselves. It kind of depends on who. But then some of the other questions that come into it are like, you know, what are your activities? Do you love? Like what what kind of locations, tell your story, what kind of props help tell your story, what kind of, you know, one of them is like, what’s your favorite emoji? Like just cause they get people thinking expression, you know, some things. And then we kind of take that sheet and we’d go over their answers and then we build a week, RV: (06:03) Build the creative of the shoot out of that. So say like, see, like I mean with Louis, with our, our last shoot was in Turkey. Yeah. With all the balloon, the hot air balloons and stuff like, and the HELOC was the helicopter helicopter. I mean y’alls freaking shoots are Epic dude that the Iceland shoot. I mean he still uses pictures from that Iceland shoot from a few years ago. And that the Turkey shoot with the hot air balloons was so NO: (06:30) Just like magnificent. Thank you. Thank you. And the whole idea behind that was like rising to your greatness. And I pitched him that kind of, you know, he was like, we’re going back and forth around it. And I was like, well what about the idea of shooting with you in capita, Nokia with all these hotter balloons in the background? Because the whole concept of rising to your greatness is really up yet obviously you know him. That’s like who he is, helps everyone rise to their greatness. So that’s, that’s the concept that we pulled out of that. And then, you know, we did some other Epic James Bond type of stuff with the helicopter and things like that. But then, you know, I had, you know Bo Easton? RV: (07:04) Yeah. NO: (07:04) So, yeah, he hired me to do a shoot and we did, you know, his whole football thing. But he’s also got as busy, you know, he’s more his business and like his, his thought leadership now. So one of the concepts that we created, cause like family is so big to him. Mmm. And so we were like, okay, well let’s shoot you with your family on a football field. So we’re not like saying, Oh, I’m like fuck totally football, where like hinting at that background, not story element, but we’re focusing on him with his family. And so we kind of, you know, and he was the hero of all the shots and in a certain sense in terms of like what the focus was and how we were, you know, composing the shots and how we were organizing and how I was directing everyone within the shots. And then, you know, so they’ve used a lot of those to kind of like show that family man concept that, that story that we’re telling. With that. So, you know, it really comes down to simple. RV: (07:58) It’s like as simple as that. Like you’re, I mean that, that’s just such a simple idea of just like you’re telling a story of who the person is or like what, like who either who they are, what they’re about, just sort of subtly like with the background or where the location is. And you know, like the kind of props maybe that show up in there. NO: (08:18) Yeah. So the, the location and the props are all kind of just hinted in the space in the background while the focus remains on the person because obviously like the person is the product and the hero. So we, we we focus on that, but we utilize the environment to tell that story. So say for instance, like Chris harder, he’s a super book nerd. He loves books. And so we had, I came up with this idea, it was like, let’s pull all the books off of like all of the shelves and put them in his, in the living room. And we just books all around him. And then we just had him sitting there reading reading books, reading one of his favorite books. But then, you know, I’d have him look up at, so it was like RV: (08:55) We had this like eye contact, but he’s surrounded by books. Right. So it’s still focused on him. And that’s one reason why Chris and I get along, we share that, we share that, that passion for learning and reading. I love, I love Chris. What a cool, that’s so cool. Yeah. So you know, and that’s kind of a big piece of, that’s the elevator realism that I’m talking about. It’s the, you know, the way that I shoot it also comes through in like the lighting that I use, the way that I direct, the way that I, you know, there’s all these little pieces to it that come together in the moment of the actual shoot. So you have the prep and then you have the actual shoot. I mean we’ve worked together so like you’ve been able to experience kind of the of bro and like, and this is crazy. RV: (09:37) Like, I mean, the photos you took of me, we’re so good. I mean, I, I, I don’t know why. Like, I don’t, I don’t have a trained enough eye to go like, Oh this is the difference between my shot with Nick and my shot with other photographers. But it was just like somehow you captured like my energy, my personality. And it was like businessy but, but, but conversational like it just just blew my mind. So talk about directing the shoot a little bit and you know, not everyone’s going to be able to work with you. So, so I mean if some of y’all are listening, if like if you can, if you can do it like just freaking hire Nick, it’s unbelievable. But the concepts here I think are also like you could shoot it with your own, you know, like some people are just starting out, they don’t have a ton of money or whatever. RV: (10:29) Like you have a process here that I think it’s cool about the story part. And then when you get to the direction, talk to us about the direction and, cause here’s one thing and I’ll share this tip with everybody. I mean I’ve done, I’ve probably done at least a few dozen photo shoots in my life. Maybe a hundred, you’re the first person ever that put music on during the photo shoot. And I re that stuck with me as such. A simple like that is such a simple, was such a simple part of directing where I was like, you are such a pro of just going like, what’s the music that captures the energy that you know, you’re, you’re wanting to like give off. So talk to us about direction a little bit. How do we do that for ourselves? Or how do we direct our photographer to do it? RV: (11:15) Or like what are just some of the things you think about? Yeah. Well, I mean that’s, that’s such an interesting question because there, I mean, it takes a long time to become, to understand how to direct and I’m still learning, I’m still getting better at it. But that’s one thing with, you know, hiring the right photographer, you’ve got to kind of see what, like their, you know, see their subjects in their work. I mean, as with anything to see what they’re pulling out of their subjects first. But when it gets into directing, you know, for me, I like energy. I like this, this constant flow of energy. That’s why I bring music into it because it loosens people up, it gets them moving and once they get moving, they start to get out NO: (11:54) Of their head. And then once they’re out of their head, then you know, then you can really kind of move. And the thing is, is everybody’s going to take a bad picture. You just shoot a lot more and then we just delete those. So, you know, I’ll, I’ll, I’ll, I’ll a lot of times just get people moving, get people doing different things, even if it’s not a good shot. Because in, in that respect, if, if you’re moving, once you get people into that flow state of just being, getting used to being in front of the camera it gets, they get, they get, they’re able, they’re more comfortable able to, you know, feeling free enough to move. I also try to use a lot of positive reinforcement as I’m shooting as well. Yeah. And then, and then I also have to keep in mind what I’m trying to like, how to compose the shot, what lighting I’m trying to use and what the lighting’s doing. NO: (12:40) And so I have like a thousand things going on in my head as I’m clicking that camera. As I’m looking through that, the lens and thinking of like, okay, composition, motion, action. You know what, I don’t want this. What action do I want this person to do and do I want to look into the camera? You know? And so it’s like I’m constantly throwing different things out at PM. And that just takes practice. You know, for me it’s taken, I’ve been doing this for 15 years and I’ve worked in, everybody’s different, every subject is different, you know, different people have different energies. Some people just like walk on and they just like bring it and like bring all the energy. And I’m like, not even really doing much, but then there’s other people who are not as experienced. And so can we talk about that? NO: (13:20) I want to talk about that cause that, that fear of being in front of the camera, like that’s a real, that’s a real thing. And I don’t know why, but it’s like, why do we have such a fear of being in front of the camera and what can we do, whether it’s on a photo shoot or if it’s just like, you know, doing a video blog or, or, you know, shooting a selfie that we’re going to post on Instagram or something. Like what are, why do you think, why do we have that fear? And like, do you have any ideas for how to move us past that? Yeah, I mean, I think the biggest thing is the fear of being seen right? And the fear of being like almost in a vulnerable state. And especially because the camera captures who we are, right? And in this state. NO: (14:03) So I would say first thing is just like, you know, take care of yourself and you know, the camera’s going to, I typically add like a, like 10 pounds, a few pounds, I want to say 10 pounds. That’s a lot. But just the way he is. So that’s why you say like no baggy clothes because they look super baggy, you know? That’s what I’m saying. You know, it’s like if people don’t feel comfortable with the way they look, they either got it yet either just rock the way with confidence, the way that you look or do something about it. You know, I, I, you know, I can only do so much of capturing, you know, we can do stuff in posts, but then it gets, starts to get like inauthentic if you’re like heavily retouching things. So, you know, I think it’s just like thinking about what, you know, really getting down to what makes you fearful of being in front of the camera. NO: (14:48) And I think so pick it outfit. Just don’t pick your newest outfit necessarily. It’s like pick an outfit that you feel confident in and like pick an outfit that you like the way you look, like something as simple as that. Yeah, absolutely. And if you really want to go to the next level, hire a stylist to help you revamp your wardrobe. And if, you know, if, especially if you want to take your personal brand to the next level, it’s like you got to think about all these things because all the aesthetics say something about who you are. So if you’re just like schlep, you know, wearing sloppy stuff, you know, what is that going to say about you in the photos? You know, what is that going to say about you? I like the way that you’re, you make decisions the way that you care about yourself, the way that, you know, what are you preaching in comparison to that? NO: (15:31) So talk about that. Like the energy part. Yeah. Anyways, so just to, just to comment on that last thing that you said, I remember this blew my freaking mind when I don’t remember where we were. Somebody asked Louis this question, what is your number one secret to building a huge brand? And I was like, that’s an interesting question. I had never asked him that question. I was like, I wonder what he’s going to say right here. And I’m thinking, you know, like yeah, funnels or webinars or digital marketing or like networking. He said photography, he said photography is my number one secret of how I’ve built up a brand. And you know, it’s, it’s interesting cause I think of photos as like what you’re wearing and how you look. But the way that both you and him talk about it is it’s like, it’s more about the energy that you’re giving off that you’re capturing. NO: (16:32) Like it’s, it’s like it’s more about the energy than it is. I like the look. Yeah. Yeah. Because we all want to connect with somebody. Right. And photography connects you with that person. Like we look at, you look through magazines, right? And you see these celebrities that are, you know, they have like eight page editorials of them and you know, of photos like high, high end imagery of them, and then you feel more connected to them. I mean we see that everyday on Instagram. It’s like we get, we connect to people through photos of them. Right. And I think this is a very subconscious thing. And you know, the psychology of both, like graphic design and photography is, is huge as well. I was a graphic designer before I was a photographer and I went to school for visual branding and things like that. NO: (17:15) And you know, it’s the reason that we buy Coca Cola versus the, the the generic brand, you know, they might even be the same product, but branding different, different packaging. Well allow you, you know, make dif make the difference between the choice that you make. So photography plays a huge part of that. Graphic design plays a huge part of that. And when you project, you know, you’re basically creating the perception that you want people to see you as and you have that choice, right? If you’re not conscious to that creation of the brand and what you want people to perceive you as, then you’re not thinking about that stuff. That’s why photography, that’s why Lewis says photography is such a, one of the biggest key key things within his within his brand is that he’s creating this image that people want him to view him as. And so we create this higher level imagery. But like, he still feels super relatable. Like you would just, you know, it can be friends with them just from seeing them online. And so it’s, it is that elevated realism that really portrays him and like creates the elevation within, you know, and makes people want to follow him, makes people want to do, you know, have him as their guide kind of thing. RV: (18:30) Well, and it’s just like, it’s interesting to me because if somebody would have said like, if it, if it weren’t you and Louis, like if somebody said, I’m going to do a photo shoot with hot air balloons behind me, I’d be like, that’s the cheesiest idea that I have ever heard of. Okay. But the way you do it, it’s not that at all. And, and it’s, it’s almost like what you’re describing to me here, Nick, is like, that’s where the magic is, is it’s, it’s like do somehow tell your story if it’s authentic to you somehow you tell that story. Like how do you balance that? Like, Hey, there’s a place for creative genius here versus, no, that’s stupid. It’s cheesy. NO: (19:14) Yeah. I mean that all comes through the eye of the photographer. Right. So that’s the way that I see when I do photography. So every photographer has a different different point of view. But for me, like I’ve always seen things with this authenticity but also like this kind of cool, elevated edge. And so whenever I, when I’m out shooting, that’s the magic that happens within the moment is that like I can see from the lighting, the composition, the things that are happening within the frame that make it feel real and authentic and not cheesy. You know, that’s just the way that I’m built. That’s the way that I see. That’s the perspective that I take on photography. And that’s where the photographer actually really the vision of the photographer is, is what you’re also looking for. Cause it’s like somebody else could take, take these concepts and like shoot somebody with books and, and, and whatever. NO: (20:04) Totally. It’s in the moment. It comes down to the lighting, the photographer, you know, the, what they see, how they direct, how they envision it and how they pull out of pull, what they need out of the subject out of the the personality and the energy and all that stuff. And then, then it comes to post to like the coloring, the composition, you know, just in the backend, you know, creating an aesthetic look as well. So that’s, that’s kind of like the components, but that’s what it comes down to the photographer at the end of the day. So you want to hire the right photographer by looking at their portfolio and seeing like, Oh, do I see myself in their photos? Do I want the sustetic do I want, you know, am I, do I feel like I would be comfortable with them? RV: (20:48) Yeah, that’s a good question. Do I see myself in their photos like that? That feels somehow easier to me than do I like, cause like to me it’s like I can’t tell like I don’t, I don’t have like when you say how you see, when I see, it’s like I look at, I almost think I look at every photo I go, Ooh, that’s really good. Like that’s good. But then I see one of yours especially of me and me, like gosh that is so different somehow, but I don’t know why, but and do I see myself in their photos I think is super cool. I want to come back to what you were talking about a minute ago about you said something where you said that we connect to people through photos of them and that the more you see someone, the more you feel connected to them. RV: (21:38) And I’m having a light bulb moment here. I’ve always resisted posting pictures of myself on my social media feeds because not because I’m a F I’m self conscious of how I look because I’m self conscious of coming across as overly promotional or self centered or like arrogant of like, Oh Hey, here’s a giant feed of, you know, here’s a bunch of pictures of me. But the way that you said that was interesting where you’re like, no, it’s like, it helps the audience feel connected to you. It’s not about like promoting you. Have you ever heard anybody have that weird fear that I’m sharing and like what? Like what’s your initial thought on that? Cause that literally, I never realized that until you said that. And I was like, I hate posting photos of myself, but not for why most people do. Which is like, Oh, I think my, you know, I think I look silly. I don’t care. Like I’ve always been like, this is who I am, but NO: (22:41) I don’t want to be overly promotional. Yeah. Necessarily. Got a couple, like a couple things came to mind on that. RV: (22:48) A free coaching session between Rory Vaden and Nick on. Ken, if you’re just joining us, I’m getting free consulting advice here from Nick NO: (22:56) 105 so absolutely. So the first thing is, is this is kind of funny because like, so I was like four or five years ago I was at scooter’s wedding and we were all riding and Justin was there and Justin Bieber for that, for that. My friend Justin was there, so we were driving, we were riding around in the, in whatever his SUV and scooter pulls out as the scooters, like you’ll just need to follow Nick. And I was like, okay. I was like, sweet, awesome. And then Justin Luke pulls up my Instagram and he’s like, dude, why don’t you have any photos of you on there? And I was like, ah. I mean, I don’t know, I just like posting photos that I take. RV: (23:38) He still followed me for a couple of years, NO: (23:40) But that kind of stuck with me after a while. And this is kind of before really personal branding on Instagram was like kind of big, right? Like, this was just, this is kind of the earlier days of, of Instagram. And so I kind of started, you know, a few years ago, I’m just looking through analytics and things like that. I was looking at like the engagement of photos on my always highest on your personal photos. Yeah. People, you know, I get more likes on photos of me than photos that I take on my main account. And especially because it’s more like behind the scenes stuff or it’s conceptual stuff of me. And like they just kinda took me back to that moment of like, and then, you know, I was like, maybe he unfollowed me cause I was posting pictures of me. I don’t know. NO: (24:26) I mean he had followed everyone, but but you know, it’s, it’s, you know, you just got me thinking of like, okay, you know, people are following, like, especially with social media, people want to see what you’re up to. People want to connect with you as a human. I think that’s the biggest thing is they want to connect with you as a human to feel that human touch. And so I think that’s why photos of you putting foot posting photos of you on your feed really help people to connect with you. I think there’s also an element of like what story are you telling with that photo and how does it connect with that photo. So whenever I’m, I’m posting on Instagram a photo of myself, I kind of, I want to make the caption link to, you know, have some sort of context as to what the picture is. NO: (25:09) Hmm. And the story that I’m telling through that picture just to connect everything cause then you get into like the whole there’s, there’s a hashtag called girls without irrelevant captions and it’s like, it’s hilarious cause they’ll put you, it’s like, it’s unreal. They’ll post like a photo of them in a bikini by the pool and then have some sort of like really like esoteric, conscious, loving like quote. And it’s just, it’s just funny. It’s, it doesn’t make sense. It’s not congruent. It’s not. And then that just kind of like pulls away from authenticity of like, what are you talking about? Like you just want to show your, show your assets and get more validation through that versus like actually conceptualizing and telling a story through the photograph and aligning it with the caption. So I think that’s highly important. It’s like congruency and all the stories that you’re telling from your photography. NO: (26:02) Then stuff that you post online to the stuff that you post to the captions that you write. And I think, you know, when it comes to, you know, the imagery that I build with people is like the high level like website banner stuff and you know, stuff for press. Like people use, like Lewis is like put my, use my photos of him in like success magazine and like all these different magazines. So you have like an an arsenal of assets to use as like high level stuff, but you can also put them into your Instagram feed. Well, mixed with other things. Like your Instagram feed doesn’t have to be all photos of you, but I think if you pepper them throughout, you’re kind of still helping build that connection for people to you. RV: (26:45) Yeah. So how often this is, this is going to be like, like if you do like how many shoots a year, if somebody was really like doing this, you know like I get, I get the idea of going, Hey you need to do a shoot for your website. One of the things we’ve gotten clear with our process of helping people build their websites and do their overall brand strategy is we take them through phase one. Okay. Which you’ve been through, right. Finding your uniqueness and then what we realized is pretty much the next thing that needs to happen is photography because you need to be able, you know, photography and copy cause you need to get the pictures before you design the website cause you have to be able to design the website around the pictures. That was something we always screwed up, which I feel like we’ve gotten more clarity on is like go get the pictures. So anyways I realize now and go okay you know the importance of photography. Sure. With your website or a book, you know like a book launch or something. But other than that, if you’re just like looking to like create a connection with your audience and like pepper, your Instagram feed, how often should we be doing this? Like where we’re hiring somebody to [inaudible] photos of us. Yeah. I mean I think NO: (28:00) Couple of times a year. It kind of depends on like the packages that you’re getting, who you’re working with and all that. And like how many different final images that you can get out of a shoot. But probably two, I would say probably two to four a year. Okay. Just to kind of once a quarter fresh. Yeah. Once a quarter. Keep things fresh. You know, you can keep your, your high, your arking over your high level imagery like on your website and stuff consistent for like a year. But like when it comes to like more social media stuff, you can probably do two to like one a quarter, I would say. RV: (28:33) Interesting. Okay. Man, there’s so much, I can’t believe how fast this went by. Like there, there is so much here. And like I’m saying, you know, if you can hire Nick and have him come shoot you, there’s other photographers we have in our community as well that, that, that we liked. But it was, it was really wild to experience a shoot with you. And the, the difference of just, I mean, I, you know, I’m not going to post any of these pictures, but there was a time back when Rory was in his early twenties that I did some commercials than I did. I did some modeling shoots. I might’ve even had some abs that I was showing off back in those days. And you know, so I’ve, I’ve, I’ve worked on sets, I’ve, I’ve had photographers, but you know, the shot with the doing the shoot with you was truly different. So where should people go if they want to just follow your work or just connect with you or like see some of your photos what’s the best way to connect up with you? NO: (29:32) Yeah, I mean Instagram is kind of the, like at Nick honkin on Instagram is kind of the hub for everything. So you can get to my, like my website photography website, my hats, my, I have a photographs by Nick honkin Instagram account. It’s just photography. So everything stems from, from there. RV: (29:54) Huh. And what’s your photographs by Nick on kin? Is it, is it that long handle? NO: (30:00) Yeah, it’s, yeah, it’s photographed by Nick honkin.com at the Instagram handle as well. And that’s just strictly photography, like curated portfolio. RV: (30:10) That’s, it’s incredible. Y’all like go look at this stuff. I’m telling you. It’s really, really, really wonderful. Well Nick, I really appreciate you sharing some of your secrets and just like helping us find the right photographers, ask the right questions, you know, prepare ourselves for the shoe, what to be looking for. And then overall, I just think, you know, a big part of your uniqueness is just this elevated realism is just like bringing, bringing our best to a shoot and drawing the best out of your subjects. And I mean, you’re, you’re, you’re extremely talented, my friend. I used to have like a really rare gift and I just appreciate you sharing it with us. NO: (30:45) Thank you. Oh, and one other thing, I do have a free ebook on how to elevate your personal brand visually. It’s Nick honkin.com/personal brand and it’s a free ebook. Talks about a lot of the stuff that we talked about today and a lot of visual examples and, and all the goods. RV: (31:02) Nick anakin.com/personal brand. I’ve walked through that ebook. It’s awesome. Super tactical and and useful. So we’ll put links to that in the show notes. My brother, we wish you the best until I can get back with you and get a shoot going, NO: (31:19) You know, best. Until then. Let’s do it. Thanks.

Ep 81: What Its Takes to Make It On Television with Kristin Giese | Recap Episode

RV: (00:00) Hey, welcome to the influential personal brand recap edition. It’s your favorite married couple and personal brand strategy, Rory and AJ Vaden. Probably the only, well, I guess there’s not that many married couples that do anyways. So we’re highlighting the interview that just with Kristin Giese, which you know, shared a lot of back story about how we found her through a cold call. And we just want to give you our top three and three, the first one we both shared. So babe, I’ll let you kick off. What was your first big takeaway from Kristin? AJV: (00:34) Yeah, and it was a takeaway and an aha moment and. I’m not sure I’d ever want to be on TV at the same time, but just the importance of it’s kind of almost like entertainment over information. And I think she talked a lot about, so I don’t think RV: (00:52) The topic of the interview was how to get booked on TV if you haven’t listened to the interview. AJV: (00:59) But I think to me that the part that really stood out was it’s not really about the information as much as what do you do with the information to entertain the people who are watching. And that’s where I naturally have a conflict because it’s like, I don’t want to create drama when there doesn’t need to be so much of TV today and not saying it’s good nor bad. I’m just saying it is what it is. RV: (01:27) That’s what I heard. I heard you saying it was bad, but we’ll leave that to you. AJV: (01:32) But I, I just think that, you know, that it’s really interesting. It’s about emotion and the entertainment value of, Oh, the shock. And I can’t believe they said that or, you know, can’t believe this happened. And I’ve heard that and tie what I want in my life. So that was kind of like a really good, clear real. RV: (01:48) Yeah. And you probably don’t know unless you’ve listened to every single episode is Aja doesn’t watch crime movies. She doesn’t watch anything sad, anything with whore, anything with drama, pretty much she watches romantic comedies and animated feature films. AJV: (02:05) And I don’t even watch those are my kids really. It’s just romcoms, that’s it. If it’s not, I’m not into it. I don’t want to be scared, sad, and angry or cry. Yeah. So I think that part was just really interesting is that you’ve got to bring a lot of entertainment value to even media interviews and getting pitched. And you’ve just gotta be an entertainment value to it. So almost more important than the information in of itself. It’s how you’re delivering it. And I think that’s really important. RV: (02:36) Yeah. And, and so that was my first big takeaway. I wrote down entertainment, not enlightenment. I didn’t process it in, in such like a negative way, but more of a, of a, of an insightful going, if you want to be in TV, you gotta realize that you’re in entertainment, not enlightenment, which if you’re building a personal brand, a lot of times it’s like, you know, the essence was information marketing, not, not for everyone. That’s that’s information marketing and personal branding are not the same thing. Information marketing is a subset of some personal brands, but if you’re an author with the video course, it tends to be more about like teaching. And like you’re saying information and TV is, it’s not the goal. Isn’t to be high minded people don’t watch TV, they watch TV for an escape. They watch it to laugh. They watch it to be engaged and entertained, not necessarily to learn. RV: (03:35) And so per se, you know, there’s some, there’s some caveats to it, but yeah, anyways, so that’s that, that’s it. So that was the first one. That was for me, for me too. So that was the big one. All right. So my second one, which is kind of connected, but I actually really loved this concept. She used this phrase a couple times heightened authenticity, and I wrote it down. You should write it down because whether you’re trying to be a reality TV star, or you’re just trying to host an interesting podcast or be an author or have great videos or just, yeah, just be a great writer. It’s heightened authenticity. It’s it’s it’s. And this is an interesting balance between being real, not being fake, but creating kind of that entertainment value in. And, and it’s like in speaking, I was always told that speakers have a license to embellish. RV: (04:33) You don’t have a license to make up, but you have a license to embellish to accentuate the salient emotions of a story or of a bit. And I think that’s really important, especially if you’re on TV, but look, if you’re on YouTube, you’re on TV. You know, if you’re going to have a podcast you’re, you’re on the, you know, you’re on the radio or whatever, it’s, it’s, you’re a host. People are looking for that. And specifically, you know, what do you do with that practically? I think she said, don’t tell me who you are, make me feel who you are, make sure your delivery creates emotions, which we talk a lot about at our world-class keynote craft events, sort of the magic of how to do that. And it was just a great reminder and I had never heard that term heightened authenticity. Yeah. AJV: (05:20) Oh really? That’s really good. My second one is something she said towards the very end. But I thought, wow, that’s probably, probably, we need to like push that up to the front as a good reminder to everyone who is trying to get pitched for a media interview or even a podcast interview TV show, whatever it is, talk, show whatever. But it’s like social media is today’s resume. You don’t need to tell me all the things you talk about. I can go and find them myself and it better match up. And probably this was strike two against me because if you went to my social feeds, AKI would learn about me is I know how to make really cute kids. RV: (05:59) And she’s not hireable for that in case you’re wondering that’s, that’s not an available service, AJV: (06:05) But you know, it’s, again, it’s one of those things where, you know, how many of us have some sort of pitch deck or there’s a media kit, a speaker kit, whatever kit. And it talks about, well, here are my talking points and here’s what you did, the dah dah dah. Then you go to your social media and none of that is represented there. And she’s like, social media is your resume. It’s not about what you’ve done. It’s, you know, what are you doing? And is it current tense and two, how many people are you doing it for? And I thought that was a really good aha reminder. Cause I know so many people who are like putting together pitch decks and writing these long emails and got this kit. And it’s like, really well, they need to do is go to your social. RV: (06:45) I kind of do that. Yeah. AJV: (06:46) So is that representative of who you are, what you talk about, what your brand is about. And I would say for a lot of people, it’s probably not including myself, RV: (06:56) But you’re also clarifying, you’re not trying to sell a TV show and you’re not trying to get booked on media. So that’s okay. AJV: (07:02) No, but maybe my brand shouldn’t be more with my passion and interests, which are children. So that, you know, again, this is all those things I’m like, do you align with actually what you’re passionate about putting out there into the world? Are you putting anything out there? All those things I thought were really an aha moment. She shed something really quick. But if you take a moment to let that sink in, it’s like, Oh, let’s take a look at that. Let’s realign some things and make sure that they all match. RV: (07:32) Yeah, love that. So my third one was a simple, a simple thing. She actually didn’t say this, but it reminded me of something that I have held as a philosophy in my life for a long time that I need to be reminded of, which is that everybody is a somebody somewhere. Hmm. Everybody is a somebody somewhere. And I must’ve had that first. That thought when I was probably, or my early twenties, was that everyone that you sit next to on a plane, there are somebody somewhere. They can get you the hookup somewhere, right. Even if it’s just a place to stay at their house, when you traveled to their city or they work at some type of job where they hire speakers or they know someone who’s a podcast host or they’re friends with a big social media influencer, or they are a TV producer or they’re the assistant to a producer or, you know, they can get you free passes to the waterpark. RV: (08:28) Like every single person you meet, everybody is a somebody somewhere. And to Christine’s point, you know, because she’s not a personality, like she’s not trying to get on shows. She’s not her feed is her career kids. And if you just looked at social media, you might not realize that, Hey, by the way, this woman has booked dozens of people for Oprah. So she might someone you want to know, you want to be nice too. And the truth is everybody has connections and, and, and things that you could benefit from. So if you’re a jerk and can’t be nice to people for the sake of being nice, just remember everybody is a somebody somewhere. So that’s a reason to be nice to everybody also. AJV: (09:15) Yeah. I think that also is indicative too, of people’s like relying too much on their social feeds because you forget to realize like, these people probably do have professional lives and they have this and they have that. And without doing the necessary research, which I, I find that people don’t do today, there’s so much, they’re not sharing it’s, you’re not really sure how to connect with a great example of that. But I think all of those things really do. I think tee up something that she didn’t say so clearly here, but it’s do your research. Mike, you want to get on a certain show. What types of people do they interview? What types of content is really popular? Who is the audience? Who is that do the necessary research instead of copying and pasting the same email. And you’re saying, you know, attachment and send, all right, you’ve got to do the necessary research to see where you fit and how do you fit. And who’s the right person and what have they done. And that all takes time, time and effort. RV: (10:12) Well, and your, your, your third takeaway was started related to that general. Oh, okay. Well allow me to interrupt your transition. AJV: (10:20) So my third takeaway is it’s making it not about you, but what are you doing for the audience, right? It’s not just, Hey, I’ve got this great insight or this great perspective, or I’ve got this great plan or whatever you have. It’s what are you doing for the audience with that? So how are you making this relevant to the people who are listening or watching that they can then take it and apply it to their life, to their business, to their home and do something with it. So what are you doing for the audience? And one of the things that I think is really important for our audience is your audience in this respect are the people who are booking people that is your audience. So what are you doing for them? What did they want? And are you doing it for that audience? In addition to the actual audience that you would be doing an interview for, or podcast for, or TV show for a it’s two fold, and you’ve got kind of a primary audience, which is a person getting you on the show and then the secondary audience, which is the people who would be watching it. And that goes for podcast and all. So that was my last one. RV: (11:28) Yeah. So there you go. I mean, quick takeaways, powerful interview. If you’ve ever thought about pitching your own TV show, or getting just booked on a talk show or being a talk show, host an absolute must listen to Kristin Giese. As always, thanks for being here, we’re breaking it down. We’re trying to make it practical. We want to help you build and monetize your personal brand so that you can make more impact, make more income and just make a big difference in the world. We’ll catch you next time. Bye. Bye.

Ep 80: What Its Takes to Make It On Television with Kristin Giese

Speaker 1: (00:00) It is very, very rare that this happens. What you are about to experience, which is that we bring on a guest who is neither a client of ours, nor somebody from the industry that I know personally, but somebody who cold pitched us for our podcast. And I’ll explain why we accepted this person. You know, in our podcast power event, we talk about you being the host and we talk about pitching yourself to get on other shows. And we get pitched, I would say four to five times every single week from different PR firms. We turn almost every single person down, but there’s a couple of things that happened here that I want you to understand right up front as we dive into this. Okay? So first of all, you’re, you’re about to meet Kristin Giza who is becoming my new friend and you’re going to love her. Speaker 1: (00:53) But the reason I had her on the show is because of exactly what we talk about in podcast power. There’s, there’s two things. So first of all, what are your results, right? Like leading with the results. And here’s what Kristen has done. We’re going to talk about TV, we are going to talk about TV shows, how to get on them, how to pitch them, how does the world of TV work for personal brand specifically? And her team tailored their pitch specifically to our audience. They showed that they cared, that they knew what our audience was about and she was relevant because she speaks on something directly to y’all and you know, to why to why you’re here. So she is a talent manager and an executive producer herself. She’s worked with miss USA, the bachelor, the bachelorette, real Housewives chefs, hairstylists. So all these personal brands. She has sold shows, TV shows to NBC TLC in Bravo. She sold the talk show with Oprah. She has 79 times booked Oprah show bookings. And she has launched products that have been into target and HSN. And so this was a specific niche, a specific expertise that was relevant to our audience that their team TaylorMade and she had the results to back it up. And that is why Kristen Giza is here and I’m so excited for y’all to meet her. She’s great. So Kristen, welcome to the show. Speaker 2: (02:24) Thank you so much. You know what, I feel like hearing that intro, I feel a bit like, and when you parked too close to the car next to you at the mall and somehow you miraculously get the door open just enough to slide in and get behind the driver again. Cause it’s like you can’t, you can’t open the door wide enough and yet somehow you’re like, I’m going to fit in here. I’m going to get in this car and get out of this mall at Christmas time. I hate all these people. That’s what I feel like when you intro me that way, that some, Oh I opened it just enough to integrate in. So I appreciate it. We suck in and we slide into that door Speaker 1: (03:00) And then you get into the car and you’re so comfortable. So I want to talk about TV because one of the things that y’all, your team pitched me with, which I agree with, is that everybody wants to be on TV, but they have no idea what it actually takes and why they are not ready. So tell let, can you talk to me about that, right. Like everyone that’s listening here is a personal brand. They are somebody that is building an audience. They have an audience of some type. Why aren’t most people ready for TV and what does it, and now we’re not talking about actors, like most of our clients are not actors we’re talking about, you know, their dream is to, you know, to be like shark tank or profit or it’s reality TV of some type. Now we do have clients that have been on the bachelor and we have some reality TV shows, but, but what does it take to be on reality TV and what does a person need to know about? Like how do you get selected for that and what do you need to be if you want that to be you. Speaker 2: (04:00) Yeah, I think the interesting thing, first of all, I’d like to say right off the bat, television is not a vanity project. So people spend a lot of time ruminating on this high-minded desire of what they might like to do on television and how they’re going to change the world. By what they can bring to television and how they are so far evolved from anything that is on television. And when is the last time that you turned on television and thought this is so high minded and so such documentary dial level, like, you know, you’re watching like duck dynasty, you know, so it’s like you have to stop thinking about television as a vanity project for yourself and really think about what television means to the audience. You know, when you talk about those Oprah bookings and all those shows that I brushed up against with the Oprah Winfrey show the magic of Oprah being in Chicago was that she had an amazing crowdsourcing to what many people in the middle of America were wanting and tuning in for. Speaker 2: (05:00) And she was listening and then she was delivering upon the deal that she made. Excuse me. What the audience. Oh my goodness. And so if you’re not doing that, then you’re not going to find your way onto television. I like to say, you know, when you drive out into the desert or into the country, wherever you’re on a road trip, and they have a giant paper, Mashiach taco or dinosaur, like the one on Peewee Herman, like that big giant dinosaur that’s just in her middle of nowhere and everyone, it’s so kitschy and everyone gets in their car, especially nowadays, and they drive out there so they can take their Instagram pictures with the dinosaur and throw up their peace signs and they’re on this amazing road trip and it’s kind of tacky, but it’s kind of art. It’s kind of cool, but it’s kind of weird. Speaker 2: (05:55) That’s what television you need to think about in your brand. What is your big pink dinosaur that is out in the middle of the desert that would compel people to want to drive out and visit it? That’s what is a seed of an idea that will work for people then to tune into. And because you come up with your big giant dinosaur and it’s just tacky enough and it’s just spectical enough and it’s just interesting enough for people to engage in. That gives you permission then to have the cool town down the street that has the cool cafe and the cool art gallery and all the other elements of your brand that are a bit more of you and a bit more rooted in the core of your brand. But this is the spectacle part of your, Speaker 1: (06:44) So if I understand your metaphor there, you’re just saying like, Hey you, it’s, it’s sort of like where you have to, it’s almost like you have to play the game of what is in order to be able to have the benefits of, of, of, you know, the other ancillary benefits that would come to you. So you’re saying directly that Hey, yeah, television isn’t inherently to be high minded. It’s not to be like evolutionary, it’s not to be this like, you know, really profound level of thinking. So if it’s not that, what is it like you give us the sobering reality of like, this is what TV is specifically. I think we’re probably talking about reality TV because I think that’s what applies to our audience, right? We’re not actors, but we are, you know, Marcus Limonus like what happened with the prophet blew up his career. Speaker 1: (07:35) Mel Robbins has her talk show coming out right now. She’s somebody that a lot of us know. You’ve got you know, even though the talk show host, Oprah Winfrey would be a good example. What’s happened with the shark tanks. The people on the bachelor and some, you know, we have, we have one of the mega stars from the bachelor that’s in our roster. But then it’s also like, he’s trying to parlay that into a real sustainable career. So what is it, if it’s not high-minded, like profound thinking, what would you call it? Speaker 2: (08:06) Yeah, I mean, first of all, it’s entertainment first and foremost. And in any good entertainment, it touches us, moves us, or gives us some level of takeaway. And so of course there’s television, that timeline, they’re 60 minutes there, CBS Sunday morning, there’s documentaries on HBO. There’s all of that, and if that’s the space that you’re in, absolutely. If you are that, that next version of Anthony Bordain that somehow gets the golden ticket to sort of do something that feels really elevated, then keep striving for that. But largely television is built in ensembles. It’s normally not just a solo venture, so there’s a lot of shows where you’re going to be partnered with someone else. Most shows, with the exception of talk shows that you work on where it might be helmed by that person, which, which let’s be real. There is a very large graveyard of talk shows that fail. Speaker 2: (08:58) There are more dead bodies in that graveyard than there are success stories and it’s, it’s very, the air is very thin up there for the people that actually make it all the way down the line to get what it is to, to develop an actual talk ship where it’s solo led, like Oprah or Ellen or Ellen or something of that fact. And it normally for, for a studio you’re talking like they’re, they’re already like $40 million in when they’re trying to launch a new talk show. So the chances of someone unexpected getting a talk show, which we hear a lot in our, in our business, I’m the next Oprah and it’s like, I don’t know, I’m not so sure, but okay, if that’s true, you better recognize all the journey that it takes to get to that level. So talk shows are so challenging on so many levels, largely talking about reality. Unscripted. Speaker 1: (09:53) Yeah. So just to pause on that right now too, because it’s like, talk shows to me, it’s kind of like traditional book publishing. You go to them when you have a platform, like, like Kelly Clarkson is a new one, right? And it’s like, because she’s Kelly Clarkson, she’s already bringing the audience to the show. And even Mel Robbins, I think she would be kind of a lower level of that. But going, she built this monster social media empire. She’s not just some random person out of nowhere that’s going to show up and be the next Oprah. She spent decades building an audience that’s following her to talk TV. Right, right, right. Speaker 2: (10:31) 100%. Right. And so when you look then at scripted and at versus unscripted, which is a space that we’re talking about, a lot of unscripted television could work as scripted. You know, when you look at real Housewives, you can almost here the versions of desperate Housewives, which was on ABC that Martin Jerry created a decade ago. You can feel the nuances of character and content in an, in an ability for the audience to plug into those personality. So like anything that you’re developing in your own brand content is King, character is queen and forever shall they reign. If you have content but you don’t have the character, your personal brand on Instagram isn’t going to take off, let alone getting on television. It’s the same on television. You have to have the character and the ability to know who you are and be authentic and be heightened as well, to heighten your authenticity, to heighten your charisma, tightened your personality in these bolder ways. Speaker 2: (11:35) Just like the camera adds 10 pounds, the camera also diminishes personality unless you heighten it and ratchet it back up. Which is the large part because everything is edited down. So if you’re not high energy the whole time you’re doing it, the three things that they cut out of your and, and, and edit down, suddenly you’re like, you’re less energy because you didn’t sustain that high energy the whole time. You have to be thinking of all of those things from a character perspective and from a content perspective, just like anything you would do in your brand, you have to think about what is the audience getting in this bargain that we’re making with them? What is the takeaway? Is it just engagement? Is it or entertainment? Is there an emotional engagement? Is there an element of learning? And how then are we adding the lens of entertainment? So you have to think like a producer. I think that people think well that’s what a production company is for. They’re going to know what I should do. That never works. Just like when you want a client to pay you to put money in your pocket to hire you for your coaching or your personal chef duties. If you don’t tell them exactly what you should mean and why you should matter, they won’t know what to do with you, not even TV producers. Speaker 1: (12:59) So, okay, so that’s, that’s so good. Like the, the, the heightened authenticity. And we talk about that even with podcasting, that the, the energy transference through the microphone, there’s a drop of like 50%. So it’s like if you’re not bringing the heat on, your show’s gonna suck because it’s boring. Like and, and so the key, I want to talk about the character thing though because I love that phrase that you use heightened authenticity because it’s still authentic. Because at some point you’re going to burn out if you’re in authentic. But it’s also, it’s also amplified. How do you find that balance and how do you know what character you should be? Like you said, you said something about you have to realize the, the, what is the ability of the audience to see themselves in those characters? What does all that mean and how do you, how do you kind of go, Oh, this is the character I am like, this is, this is the character I should play. Speaker 2: (14:03) Yeah. Well, we, we fuel everything that we do through our three E’s. So every project that we touch, it needs to feel elevated. And I’m talking that that pink dinosaur in the desert can still feel elevated based on the experience that you give to people when they get there. So there needs to be an elevation to what you’re doing. The audience needs to feel empowered by what you’re doing and they need to feel emotionally connected to what you’re doing. And so even in that, I think this, to me, this applies to everything that you do. Whether you’re writing a book, whether you’re going on the today show, whether you’re going on a podcast, you are delivering on these three E’s consistently and in television you better deliver on these three E’s. You better find the way to elevate within you’re doing. So that way you can get noticed on camera. Speaker 2: (14:53) That way what you’re delivering within the exchange is important. That, that how you’re contributing to the cast feels of benefit. You know, there’s a difference between someone that can play well in a group of an ensemble and contribute in a way that furthers what’s happening. And then there are people that are just constantly trying to contribute and get in and get in and get in and they become a detractor. You’re ultimately going to get edited out because you’re just trying to get in on the goods as opposed to sort of being that really elevated heightened authenticity that you, Speaker 1: (15:26) You’re talking about like the bachelor there, like that kind of a thing of like, are you just trying to get into the camera? Right. So there’s a difference between I’m playing well with others and I’m a part of the scene and then I’m just trying to be in like I’m just trying to be famous and be in it versus someone who’s being heightened authentically. That it, it, it raises the whole, it moves the whole group forward. It moves the cast forward, it moves the show forward. Speaker 2: (15:53) Correct. And I think you can feel, I mean, one of the, one of the biggest deals I guess that we had that we should talk about is ego. And I don’t, I’ve never met a single person who has said the phrase, I think I want to be on television that does not have some level of ego invested in what that is. And so you have to find a way to harness that. So the ego, your ego isn’t what leads you into the room. Sometimes you will get casts because here you go leads you into the room. As a producer, we need people on camera whose ego is completely out of whack because that gives us drama. Speaker 1: (16:30) You need conflict. Yeah. Speaker 2: (16:33) And all of that is relevant and important and the audience needs it to further the story. You know, that is art and PS, anyone who’s been on television knows this. We’ve already identified and arc of where we think the characters will go within the episodes based on what we’re doing. So sometimes that is surprising and they go other ways and sometimes there’s mechanisms that encourage them to go certain ways. In reality television. So there’s that whole side too, depending on how you’re looking to join the game. You know, if you’re going to be cast on a show like bachelor, there’s definitely going to be mechanisms that are imposed upon you in order to create that drama. If you are going to be the next Martha Stewart and you are bringing about a heritage cooking show, it’s a different type of mechanism that you’re working with the producers to develop that, the stakes of what’s going to happen in that show. Speaker 2: (17:29) But there’s always going to be mechanisms in stakes that we’re creating as producers to bring that about. But you know, so you’re, to go back to your question, you know, you are looking at that heightened authenticity. You’re answering these things for yourself. You’re aware that you’re going to be edited in some capacity. You’re aware that you’re going to become a part of an ensemble and these other people are going to be pushing and pulling you in different that way. And so in every situation without it being obvious to the camera, because you’re still have to be present in, in it and participating, you have to find a way to, to deliver on those three E’s, to elevate and be of importance and, and to have, take up space in the best possible way. You have to find a way to emotionally connect. And that doesn’t just mean that you share something for the sh the sake of sharing it because you think this is my hook that’s going to get the audience. Speaker 2: (18:27) You are legitimately emotionally connecting to the situation. And then most important, almost everyone that you think about on television that you enjoy somehow empowers you or gives you something that you feel you’re invested in them and you’re giving yourself permission to be invested in them because of how they are changing you in some way. Oprah certainly did these three E’s exceptionally well. You know, we tuned in for that hour and there was a bargain we were going to show up as we were cooking dinner and we were going to have an experience on all these levels. And it’s the same for every show. It’s the same for bachelor. It’s just a different bargain. It’s just, we know that the exchange of currency is a bit more drama and a bit more salacious than if we’re tuning in for 60 minutes. But every show makes this bargain with the audience and it’s always about the audience. That’s the thing. Speaker 1: (19:35) Yeah. And that’s the same about speaking, which is I was my background. Like I am a, I’m a hall of fame speaker, so classically I, I am a stage performer. I know you did your first comedy set last year, which was, which was cool. I saw that. You know, I was, I was doing standup comedy in early two thousands when I was in grad school, not because I ever wanted to be a comedian, but because I wanted to be a, you know, a business speaker. And I knew I had to be funny, but that, so, so coming back to the character, you talk about Oprah, right? And just this concept of heightened authenticity, which I think is super, super powerful. How much of heightened authenticity is natural versus learned? Cause it’s not acting, but it’s a, it’s an intentional choice of like, Oh, I’m going to play this character, I’m going to play this role. Speaker 1: (20:31) Versus just like blind luck. Like, you know, like you talked about the ego person. I, you know, I’ve never been a producer of a show, but I have to think if I was going to produce the bachelor, I would be intentionally grabbing some of the most outlandish characters just because they’re completely self unaware of how insane they are because that creates the drama and the conflict for TV. Like nobody wants to watch grass grow, we need conflict like we have. And so I’m grabbing that person who’s like self unaware deliberately. So, but then you go, I don’t think, you know, like is Oprah playing a character? Is she just being herself? Like was a lot of that coached into her or was it just like that was just who she was coming out? Speaker 2: (21:13) No, I think the people, well who do, who are truly able to find to find that, well, when I say heightened authenticity, you’re tapping into that, you know where it is and you know where the on and off switches. It’s not a different room with a different light every time it’s the same room. You just know where all the switches are and you know how to temper it. So you know, you’re in charge of, of that muscle so to speak. Oprah is one of those. I mean, there is a lot of truth then don’t meet your heroes because like I could tell you stories of people that I’ve met along the way where you’re like, I am good at this or isn’t as not nice. They were so mean to that server and I loved them. And X movie, you know, and it, it just brings you to your knees. Speaker 2: (22:00) But Oprah is exactly who you need her to be, who you’ve always known her to be for you. That is who she is because she is my wife in real life. She is, she is one of those rare people that means so much. Open means to me is different than what she means to you is different than what she means to my aunt Susie. She has meant something and touched us again. And that emotional content connection and that empowerment connection, she has empowered him, fueled each one of us differently. So when we arrive in front of her, she rises up to that version of herself every single time. I’ve, I’ve rarely seen something like it and, but the thread of what that is, the talent that I’ve worked with the most that have meant the most to their audiences have always been the talent that have something special. Speaker 2: (22:55) And it’s, it’s almost unquantifiable. But when you stand before them and they look at you and they speak to you, you want to be the person that you think they see when they’re looking at you. And that’s a very powerful thing when you are speaking with someone that your belief when they’re looking at you is that they see something special in you that you feel more special because of their gaze. It’s so powerful. And Oprah has it other amazing celebrities that we all know and love. They have a way of just in their personal power to hold space with someone that’s more about the person that they’re holding space then about themselves. And that is a skill that you can actually build over time. It takes the requirement of moving your ego aside and picking up sort of an energy frequency with the people that you were with in the most powerful performers. I have ever met have the capability to do that. Speaker 1: (24:07) Yeah. And it’s, it’s like a, it’s, it’s a skill. It’s, it’s, it’s almost like developing a character trait. It’s selflessness of going like, okay I see something in units. You know, there’s a beautiful phrase, I don’t do hot yoga anymore, but I, there was a season in my life when I did Bikram yoga and they, they have this, Mmm, no, I’m a stay. Right. Which it means the highest in Macy’s, the highest in world. Correct. And that is like the essence of what we’re talking about here. Right. Which is ironic because what you’re saying about ego, there is the enemy where it’s like, I’m not trying to too, I’m not trying to be in the camera. For me, I’m trying to draw the best out of you, which is the audience is like, I’m trying to create the best experience for the audience, not for me, for the audience. Speaker 1: (24:59) Okay. Correct. So I, I love that. And I, and I, and I love that this applies, you know, you mentioned probably most of the, most of our are most of our people, our tribe, you know, we call a mission driven messengers. That’s, that’s who we serve. Most of them are probably more likely to just be a guest on a show, you know, like they have a book launch or something. And yeah, you got on Fox news or the today show or something like that. Mmm. More than just pitching a show and just cause that’s a smaller number of people. But like would you say those three ease and being that heightened authenticity, is that part of what makes you a great guest? A great pick to go? Yeah, we can have you on good morning America because you have something empowering. But we also, you also have to still keep in mind that a part of what I’m doing there is I’m entertaining people while I’m there. I’m not just let me tell you about my book. I’m entertainment. Speaker 2: (25:53) Correct. And I think that people forget that there’s a lot of publicists. And that’s, that’s where I cut my teeth. That’s the roots of where I, where I grew up in, in entertainment. And a lot of publicists will tell people right out of the gate, you gotta be working your points. You’ve got to get in that you’re there to promote your book. And as an audience member, when the first question is, so you’re here in New York and you’re a, we heard that you have new show that’s going out and tell us about it. And the person says, well, I told you all when I wrote my book that came out as an audience. You’re like, Oh, gropes you know, and as the producer, you’re like, I’m not booking this person because your goal here was to deliver upon what we’re doing here. And that is putting on this show that is about the broader engine of the show. Speaker 2: (26:43) So it requires you, if you’re going to deliver on these things, cause you’re doing it all the time, it requires to hone the skill of how to do it. You know, there’s an important state, I’m saying in a Gar, salesmen taught me this, that I don’t want to sell you a car. I want to make you want to buy a car from me. So I’m about the car. I’m telling you everything about the car and you now are invested in me and you are invested in the story. I’m telling you about the car. Now you want to buy the car that is different than me selling you the car. And if you’re going to go on, tell me and do these things. You want people to want to buy the car. You’re not trying to sell them the car. And that is such an important it’s like flipping the other side of the coin and in, you need to practice that skill of, of the coin flip in order to get it right every time. Speaker 2: (27:37) Cause it’s hard. It’s hard to be there to deliver upon what they want you to deliver upon. Instill, get your messaging in. And the thing that we is the cornerstone of, of how to do it well is that you are never, not for an instant have I ever sold products or properties. I have only only ever sold philosophy. So all the years of selling product lines into target, moving shows on to television, launching books and publishing books, I was never selling any of those things. I was only ever like the master of the ShamWow selling you, evangelizing you on the power of the words, of the philosophy, of the belief of how this will elevate, empower, and emotionally support you. And when you connect into those things, that is the Trojan horse to want to go buy the publishing, the property and the product. Speaker 2: (28:43) And if you can learn how to do that, well, there is not a single room that you can’t walk into and nail the pitch, get the property, sell the project. It’s, it’s just the cornerstone because you’re not, you’re never beginning a conversation, but it never begins with, I have this thing that I want to sell to you. It always begins and ends with, I have this thing that I want to share with you, and the selling becomes then the byproduct of that, and that’s where the power is. I think in anything that you’re going to do, whether you want a producer to buy into an editor to buy into you or whatever your mechanism is. To me that’s the power source. Speaker 1: (29:24) So yeah, I love this so much. The, the yeah, you mentioned ShamWow and I was laughing for a second. So Kevin Harrington is one of our, one of our clients who was like, [inaudible] works, Speaker 2: (29:42) You know, I’m just going to show you this thing over and over and you like me and now you like this thing and you’re debating 10 years later I’m like, maybe I should still buy that sham. Wow. You know, and I know the name that just shows you, it affects you on these different levels Speaker 1: (29:58) Now as the producer. Okay. So you’re, you’re, you’re a producer. Like I mean you’re an author, right? You, you do, you’re doing these things, you have your own personal brand and stuff, but, but your daily, your J day job right now is like you produce shows, you pitch ideas to networks and to production companies. And, and when you sell a show, a part of what your role as a producer is, is selecting the talent who comes on the show. Speaker 2: (30:25) Gosh. Oh we could, we could unpack this for another three hours. Speaker 1: (30:28) Well here’s my question. Here’s my, my big question is how do you spot it in someone and what do you look for, right? Like as the producer, cause you’re kind of like, you’re the director, you’re the orchestra, you’re like the conductor. You’re the one that’s like got to pull all the pieces together between the audience and the talent and the production company. Right? Like that’s what you’re doing. Speaker 2: (30:50) I don’t, I don’t spot it. I feel it. So every single person that calls me that wants to work with us as talent management or production and they’re telling me who they are, they better make me feel who they are. And for every time that you tell them, feel free to cut that as a tweet it that that is what it comes down to. I need to feel you in, in the way of of what it is that you are bringing into this unit versus, and I mean I’m talking you could be honey booboo and that’s okay. If I feel it, what it can be, then we’re going to the dance. If you sit in front of me and first of all, don’t come to me and try and just talk at me or tell me or or proselytize to me who you are. Listen a lot more than you speak and find the way to help navigate through what we are looking for to then tell, to encourage us to have that connection with you. Speaker 2: (31:57) So many people come and sit before us and they just start telling me all the things that they are and the whole time maybe I’m thinking I feel something else for them that could get them to the dance, but they’re so busy telling me that all they want is a talk show like Oprah. And I know that those are all on the decline and they’re so adamant about what it is that they’re want that they want, that it starts to feel a bit like an unreal hell that you’re trying to talk into doing their homework. It’s just a battle that you don’t want to have, so I find it’s sometimes much better to begin with the question, so to say, let’s talk about the things that I am bringing into the world and let’s have you tell me a bit about what does that mean for the world? Speaker 2: (32:45) Is there a place for that in the world? How does this apply to the world? There’s a conversation that we could be having that a lot of people skip right over that and go to, whether it’s their brand, whether it’s television or whatever it is, they make it a vanity project. They sit in front of you and tell you what it is exactly that they’re going to do, and that’s for your vision board. That’s for your book on your bedside table that you write down every day. I’m going to be a millionaire and I’m going to, I do it too. I’m right there with you. We can compare crib notes all day long. I got it. We’re all vision boarding. I’m in it, I’m in it deep. But there is also when you vibrate at a frequency of I am pulling people into me that are going to inform where I’m going next. You actually have to connect energetically, hear from them, learn from them, and then apply maybe. Okay, now we’re going to go down this path and people miss that beat altogether. Speaker 1: (33:41) I love that. I mean, and that, that don’t tell me who you are. Make me feel who you are. I mean that is gonna is such a such a capstone of this conversation. I love this so much. The, the, Mmm. So real quick, I know this is, this is like a little bit off topic. Like we’ve been going so deep into like the character and the role that you play. Can you just give us a broad and like, I can’t believe this has gone way over time. But this is so good and I think unique. I think you have, you have such a unique perspective of, of what, you know, I think of what people normally see Kristen of just like living in this world for your whole career. And so if you were going to pitch a show, what are like, just the mechanics of that? Speaker 1: (34:35) Like what, you know, like if you get a book, like if you want to get a traditional book deal, we have a whole, we have a whole event, we call it bestseller launch plan, which is all about like, here’s how it works. You create a book proposal, you have the book proposal, you have your plan and the book proposal. You go to a literary agent, the literary agent says yes, they shop you to a publisher, publisher signs a deal. You get a contract. You know, it’s like there’s a, there’s a process that more or less as generally fall, I followed, I feel like TV for most of us is this like mysterious black box of like, we just think of it as like this lucky break of like you’re walking in the mall and somebody goes, Hey, you’re the next Oprah. But there’s, there’s a process to all this and, and for, for people like you who’ve, like you spent your life doing it. It’s second hand nature, but just like, what’s the high level, Hey, I got an idea for a show. How does that, how does that materialize from there? First of all, Speaker 2: (35:30) There’s hardly any new ideas. So that’s the first thing. Production companies have a very hard time making money right now because it’s so hard to sell shit. There’s so many shows that don’t actually get to air. It used to be that they bought 10 episodes, now they buy eight, sometimes they buy less. I would say by one they tested, it takes a year, then it doesn’t get the ratings, so they don’t buy the rest of the show. It’s basically the smell of desperation. Fear and failure in entertainment is like be prepared. You know, I don’t know, I’ve never been in a morgue, but like get the menthol ready because it is not pretty. So be prepared for so many nos. Be prepared to be violently unrelenting in your desire to pursue it. If there’s any part of you that’s like, I’m just gonna see what happens and go from there, you are never going to make it off the ground level because it’s going to fail and fail some more and fail and fail again. Speaker 2: (36:32) That’s, that’s first rule. Second rule, you were the driver like anything in your life. Show them what you can mean already. Start collaborating with friends already start creating content on Instagram live already. Start creating. Even YouTube show you the people who make it the furthest are the ones who are already creating the content that gives the roadmap for how people would use you. So find friends to collaborate with. Start doing it. Start dreaming up. Start trying new things. Show people what you could mean on a larger scale. Become an expert at understanding what all’s happening on television and what networks are buying and what they aren’t buying, so you can actually have a conversation with producers because a lot of the shows that people come to me and say, Hey, this is a show that I want to do is actually only a seed of an idea that would be a segment on a TV show. Speaker 2: (37:23) You actually have to think about how does this sustain for one whole episode and for 10 whole episodes in a season and you don’t make any money in season one, so how’s it going to get to a season two? Where are you going to go in it? It’s all of those things that you should start thinking of so that way it can go beyond just that one small five minute. This is how I would do it on, on the Rachael ratio. It needs to actually feel expandable and like I said earlier, a lot of ideas that work that are successful in television. You can see a version of them as a documentary, like the tiger King that then can become a film that we would all watch and get invested in. That could also become a series of a show with these really great characters that could also be a reality show. It can it like any good idea, you can mold it and fit it for the different formats and platforms that exist out there. So think in those terms. If it’s something that only applies to you and only you could do it, you’re going to have such a hard time selling it. Think in terms of does this idea and contract and then write your pitch, build your deck, get a Canva account, make it look sexy. You got to do all the things to sell it. Speaker 1: (38:45) So, okay, so just real quick on that. Okay, so that was you hummed over that. So yeah, the, I mean obviously the psychology is way more important. Functionally speaking, you’re going to write a pitch, just like a book proposal or a speaking proposal or any other proposals like show me something in writing and with pictures that kind of gets, helps me understand and articulate the concept. Correct. And then who do you send that deck to? Do you send it to a producer, to a production company, to somebody else? Is it just like, I mean, I know it’s kind of like send it to Frick and everyone and anyone who will listen to you until you like find the right person, but is it, who’s the gatekeeper there? Speaker 2: (39:24) I mean there are so many gatekeepers. That’s part of the problem. So you’re building those connections and networking and having conversations. If it’s truly a seed of an idea that is stealable, which they kind of all are, you’re going to want to be careful about how you talk about the idea. You know, so that way you can kind of try and protect it. I mean, I can’t tell you the number of times that I’ve been told no on a show pitch. And then a year later I see the same production company that I was pitching out there with a similar show, you know, so, and who’s to say maybe they had the idea at the same time. Again, there are no new ideas, so it’s, it’s really about how you layered in, but everything comes down to relationships in any industry and television is the same. Speaker 2: (40:09) Every connection, every business card, the number one thing that I can say, whoever decided that no one should have business cards anymore should be interrogated beyond. Because the number of times that I have said to talent that I actually am curious about like, hi, I’m Kristen do you have a car? And they’re like, you can find me on Instagram. I know that when I DM you, you probably won’t see it in DME back and now I am a lost connection to you and you never know who someone is or how they’re going to help you. And if you don’t find a way to concretely connect with them, don’t make me search for you because that is how doors don’t open. So be prepared at every turn for actually how to get ahold of someone. Speaker 1: (40:52) Totally. Well, and I, I hope you don’t take this as a slight, but like, you know, if I go look at your social media right now, I wouldn’t see millions of followers. But if I was sitting next to you on an airplane and be like, Hey, this is someone who’s booked 70 people on Oprah, it might be worth the conversation. And you just, you just don’t know. You know, on social media, everyone’s like drawn to like, you know, all the people with lots of followers. But it’s like, usually those aren’t the people who open the doors. It’s their assistant, it’s their talent manager, it’s their agent. Like those are the people who control the doors. Speaker 2: (41:26) Correct. And when you delve deeper into someone’s following, and then you start to see, Oh, that’s the head of, of this, of HSN. Oh, ahead of target. Oh, that’s ahead of that. And then you’re like, you have no idea who those people are because when you go to their feet, it’s just them with their kids. You don’t know that the people in my orbit and you’ve already discounted for whatever reason and it’s like you just lost one of your greatest leads, you need to great at such a high frequency of I am compelling these people into my orbit and then actually be smart enough to take advantage of that. You know the number of times that I’ve sat next to someone on a plane and later someone would be like, how’d you sit next to the head of development for HBO? And it’s, how’d that happen? It’s like I made that happen. I vibrated at such a high energy all the time at every turn. In order to make that happen, you have to vibrate at that level too and be smart enough to take advantage of it when it happens. Speaker 1: (42:23) So. Okay. I have one other question before we let you go. Before I do that though, where should people go if they want to connect with you, Kristen? Like if they want to like, you know, learn more and all that kind of stuff and just kind of like get plugged into what you’re doing. Speaker 2: (42:38) Yeah. All Moxy on Instagram. A. L. L. M. O. X. I. E. Speaker 1: (42:43) Okay, very cool. I think we’ll probably have you back again at some point or maybe we’ll just do a training for our members on like specifically TV pitching and stuff. But this is so, so powerful. So my last question for you is, is TV dead or dying? Like should we all be going the heck with a production company? Take your show idea and fricking make it yourself and build it on YouTube. Because that’s sort of what I’m starting to think is going by the time I would build the relationships and get to the people and make the pilot and get the first episode. And did we get the rating? It’s almost like, should we be thinking more of just like just build it, build it on your own or, or do you go now, you know, you really need to, like it’s still, it’s still TV. I think it’s a bit of both. I mean if you build it, they will come, right? So if you start doing it on, you prove that you have traction, then it will open. It speeds it up Speaker 2: (43:42) In creativity. Just again, having clever, you know, the first thing that we do with clients is say your Instagram, your social media is your resume. So show people exactly the types of cleverness, content, creativity that you have. So by the time they come to your page, now the alarm bells are going off. Now we’re connecting the dots of how to use you. That is, you know, it’s a paint by number, right? You’re over here shading in the lower corner there somewhere you don’t know. And somewhere all of a sudden you both arrived at the same spot and it all clicks. It’s like, Oh, this was the missing piece to this butterfly painting that we were making of your brand. And it comes together and you eventually, for as much as you can say like television is changing. Is it dead? Absolutely not. It’s not anywhere we, especially now we are all working from home at home, our connection to entertainment, sharing and watching television together, it’s, it’s going to get stronger again. It’s just that now we have to find more clever ways for us to bridge together and come together in the middle. So it’s a bit of both. Speaker 1: (44:50) I like it. I like it. Such a fantastic educational, stimulated conversation. My friends, I don’t know, you know, where else you would find Kristin, and that’s why she immediately jumped out to me as someone you had to meet. And I think my instincts were fully justified because of her spirit. And this has been so generous, Kristin, and so informative and honest and empowering and I think just insightful and anyways, we’ll help to stay in touch with you. We wish you the best. And thank you so much. Speaker 2: (45:22) Thank you. And forgive my moving boxes. I’m just still getting settled. It’s not normally the shabby around here, I promise. Thank you so much for having me.

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Ep 94: The Vision Driven Leader with Michael Hyatt

Ep 93: The Three Components of Becoming a Highly Booked Speaker and Thought Leader with Josh Linkner | Recap Episode

Ep 92: The Three Components of Becoming a Highly Booked Speaker and Thought Leader with Josh Linkner

Ep 89: Building A Sustainable Speaking Business with David Avrin | Recap Episode

Ep 88: Building A Sustainable Speaking Business with David Avrin

Ep 86: Embracing Vulnerability as Your Superpower with Dave Hollis

Ep 85: Using Elevated Realism to Build the Visual Identity of Your Brand with Nick Onken | Recap Episode

Ep 84: Using Elevated Realism to Build the Visual Identity of Your Brand with Nick Onken

Ep 81: What Its Takes to Make It On Television with Kristin Giese | Recap Episode

Ep 80: What Its Takes to Make It On Television with Kristin Giese

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