RV (00:03): Anytime we can talk about money and financial freedom and being more rich and abundant and helping you grow your business, it is a powerful conversation. And today is especially going to be that because we have my good friend Mel Abraham on the show. Mel and I have known each other for several years now, and he is one of the most genuine amazing nice individuals that I’ve ever met. And everybody who knows him in real life will say the same thing by trade though, he is a CPA and he is a deep, deep expert on, on the subject of all things money. He is a globally recognized thought leader. He shares the stages with shares the stage with 400 Fortune 500 companies. He speaks at some of the biggest public events in the world. He is friends with a lot of the most influential people in this space, and he understands online business, understands offline business. He’s also a cancer survivor, which was something that he endured like in and around the, the pandemic and went through some of his own financial, you know, kind of issues dealing with that. And he’s just an amazing, amazing, genuine human. So he understands our space and he understands specifically, you know, he’s an expert in, in finance and all things money. So, without further ado, Mel, welcome to the show, buddy. MA (01:25): Rory, it is so good to be here. Thank you for having me, man. RV (01:29): Man, I’m so excited about your new book. So, building Your Mon Build Your Money Machine, which I love the title, build Your Money Machine. This book is fantastic. It is. It has diagrams and tools and charts and tables. You do such a brilliant job of making it clear and simple, you know just helping people understand money. So I’m excited to talk to you. I I, I wanted to ask you, where did your whole journey start? Like, how did you get into money and like, what, what happened early? I know you, you talk in the book a little bit about some of your earliest, like money memories and how that impacted you and has really like, set the trajectory of your life. So I’d love to hear that. MA (02:16): Oh my God, thank you. So, yeah, I look, most of our money lessons are caught not taught. And, and I was no different. I, I remember my, one of my earliest money lessons was was seeing my dad cry for the first time. Now, I’m, I’m a son of an immigrant family. My dad came here at 17 years old with nothing. He came here to go to school and, and he fought to get here and built a life, you know, he was an engineer, you know, aerospace engineer. But in my life, I looked at him as this tower of power and everything. And here he was in tears for the first time that I’d ever seen him in tears. And I didn’t know the specifics. I just knew it had to do with money. It was my mom and him having a conversation. MA (03:07): And I hear my dad say, I just feel like I’m letting down and disappointing the people I love. And I, I, and that hit me. And I didn’t realize how much it hit me, but I ended up carrying this idea that if I don’t make enough money, you’re gonna disappoint the people you love. Hmm. And I’m, it, it became this, this chase for me, the, the challenge was obviously I was wrong, . And, and that got presented to me by a 6-year-old. Fast forward, I have my, I’m a single full-time dad, building my businesses as an entrepreneur, doing the things that I’m doing. And I did the typical thing. I got on the treadmill and started running the miles. I was building an expert brand at that point in time, and, and I was getting money and I was getting clients. Things were going well. MA (04:02): And Jeremy, at six years old comes running in and says, daddy, daddy, I drew a picture of you at school today. And so I kneeled down to grab this picture and look at it, and there I am, and blue felt tip pen, a stick figure with two computer screens and a phone in each ear, and the one on the desk ringing. And that was a mirror into my soul. He, he in a moment looked at me and said, dad, you know, you, you may want the profits because it pays the bills, but I don’t want the profits. I just want your presence. And that’s, it was in that moment where I ki I kind of looked at things and said, how, how is it and is it possible for the dream to be an entrepreneur, the dream to, to build and impact lives, to coexist with the gift of being a parent, giving, being, being a dad. MA (05:01): Because I knew that no matter what my financial success was, if I screwed up and messed up the parenting part, then I was a, I failed. I failed. Mm-Hmm. . And, and that’s, that’s what kind of gave birth to this obsession, if you will. Now, he’s 34 years old now, so it’s been decades. But this obsession to say, how is it, how can we do this? Because I think that the ultimate purchase we need to make in our lives is freedom. It’s not stuff. And that’s why we need the wealth. And that’s where, where money came in. I knew that I had to separate the ability to earn from the efforts to earn it if I wanted to be free. RV (05:46): Yeah. I love that. Well, so, so let’s talk about that specifically in the context of entrepreneurs, because there’s a part of being an entrepreneur that is like, when, when I think of it financially, there’s like these different buckets, right? So first of all, it’s like I have to make a lot of money. Like I have to generate revenue. That’s a, that’s an important part of being an entrepreneur. Then there is I have to manage expenses and I need to not spend more than I’m making. Then there is whatever past I had, like the debt I came in with to being an entrepreneur in the first place. And so I have to like, resolve that. But then it’s like, I’m also planning, I also have to plan for the future, right? For like retirement. And, and then I have like my personal finances. So if, if I just think about like, the businesses, okay, we gotta make money. RV (06:43): We have to spend money wisely. We have to pay off debt that exists. We have to plan for the future, and then we have to like pay our expenses now. And like, it is freaking hard. Like just, just even saying that out loud is overwhelming. It’s going like, yeah, I do feel like I need to get back to work. Like to do those five things really well is incredibly difficult. And then you go, how do I do that in some reasonable amount of hours inside of a week where I can still be a present dad and, you know, mom and friend and not, not work all the time? ’cause It’s scary going, how the heck am I gonna do those five things? So where do you think is the, is the, is most often the first place to focus? So like you look at those buckets, there’s making money, they’re spending money wisely. There’s paying off the past planning for the future and then like, you know, managing our personal, our personal lives. If, if, if, if that’s sort of overwhelming to me, where do I start first or just, you know, in those various areas, what are some things that we can do to kind of get more control Yeah. Financially. MA (07:53): So before we get there, I think the first thing that we wanna make sure we have clarity on is our direction. And that’s why everything I think starts with life. What is that life vision? What do we want for the business? What do we, you know, are we trying to, like I look at the stage of, I, I’m at my desire is to impact people as much as possible and have as much reach. My desire isn’t to build this huge organization. And so, so we, we need to be clear that we’re running our race first, because the tendency, and I watched, I watched a dear friend of mine start hiring a bunch of people because everyone else around him was hiring a bunch of people, and he felt it was the thing to do. He was miserable until he skinnied it back down to a small team to do the things that he really wanted to do. And, and so, so I think the very first thing, whether it’s in the personal or the business, is to ask ourselves, what’s my race look like? What’s my finish line look like? Where am I trying to go and why am I trying to get there? Mm-Hmm. Because then we allow that. So that will inform the plan. The vision will inform the plan. The plan will determine the strategy. The strategy will dictate the tactics. And then there. RV (09:09): That’s so good. That’s so good too. Because like, if you don’t, if you don’t do that, you literally, you scroll on social media and you see Lamborghinis and Ferrari’s and private jets, and you’re like, oh, my whole life needs to be about this. And then one day you wake up, you go, I don’t even care about that crap. Like, I don’t want five houses, five houses sounds like a fricking nightmare to me. Like all the, all, you know, mowing five yards and cleaning, having five, even if you’re not doing any of it, it’s like managing the contractors. It’s like, what a nightmare. But yet, if you don’t do this deliberately, you get like swallowed up into this current, like this, this mainstream current of like, more is better, bigger is better, nicer house, nicer car, bigger, nicer vacation. And, and you’re like consumed chasing something you literally don’t even want. MA (10:01): It’s, it’s so true. Patrick Beda, I saw an interview with him and he made a comment, he said, when we were growing up, and he grew up not far from, from where I grew up. And he says, when we were growing up, we would see a kid with a new bike. And that became our comparison set where we’re looking at new bike, I kind of want the new bike, but now because of social media, the comparison set is the Kardashian’s new jet and starts to create this, this need, this desire. And that that’s the definition of success. But the reality is, is that your definition of success might be a tent in Montana. And, and that’s okay as long as it’s of your own hands, of your own doing. I think that’s one of the biggest lessons that came out of the drawing that Jeremy made was because I had so many people saying, Mel, you have to get work-life balance. MA (10:54): But balance is a myth. This idea of a weight on one side, a counterweight on the other side, playing tug of war. And on average you’re balanced. And it’s like what we really needed was harmony. And harmony comes from intent. And I think when we become intentional with our life, with our time and our money, now we can direct it in a focused way to, to achieve the things that we’re trying to achieve. But too often we’re diluted in our, in our focus because we’re getting all, we’re getting barraged with all these messages, and we haven’t taken the time to define really what our lane is and what our race is RV (11:31): Gonna look. So when you define it, when you define it, like what, what does that mean? Does it mean like, I need to say exactly how much I money I wanna retire with, I need to describe exactly the kind of house I wanna live in, how many cars I want to have, what kind of college I wanna send my kids to, if I wanna send ’em to college? Like, what are the elements of going, this is what it means to be clear on the race that you’re running. MA (11:58): Yeah, so, so I look at it and I say, we’re gonna look at all the domains of life. So we’re not just gonna, so, ’cause it’s, it’s how we wanna live our life that matters. And then we put the price tag on it. So relationships, what do we want our relationships to be like? What do we want our family to look like? Where do we wanna live? What does our career look like? What is our health? So we, we define that and say, okay, what does it take to get there? Now let’s just be really clear. We can get as specific as we want, but we’re not gonna be exact. Because if I had that kind of crystal ball, then I’d be in a totally different business. I don’t have that crystal ball. So I look at things and say, where do I want to be in a decade? MA (12:41): Let’s just use a decade to start, because then a decade I can break to a five year milestone to a one year milestone, to 90 day increments, to action steps and projects. And it allows me to look at things through those eyes knowing that life’s gonna change. When, when my son was born, life changed. When I met my wife, life changed and things changed. And we have to revisit it. When my granddaughters were born, things changed. When I got cancer, things changed. So, so what we’re doing is setting a trajectory for a horizon to get us going the right direction and give us the boundaries that we want to operate within. And then as we start to live our life and we get closer to that time, we’ll refine it. And a lot of that refinement is realizing, I actually don’t like that, so I’m gonna put it away and I’m gonna just focus on this. MA (13:38): Like you said, I, I don’t own a ton of real estate directly, and part of it is I don’t want that lifestyle. I, the, the thought of having a bunch of properties and to manage it, even with a management company just stresses the hell out of me. I don’t want it. And so we tend to, to not do that. So the first thing is, is this is, let’s just figure out an idea of where we’re going. Let’s put a price tag a an estimated estimated price tag on it. So we kn we have something to go towards. Because the risk is if we don’t do that, we have no idea what the finish line is. And we don’t know how close we are, how far we are, and we have nothing to judge. So I just want to have something there. And every year, every couple years, you’re gonna revisit it and get more precise. MA (14:28): Then we can look at it and say, okay, great. Now I have an idea of where I’m going. Let’s look at where I really am. Because once I have those two points, my current reality, my desired future, we know the gap in between. Now we know the work we have to do. Mm-Hmm, . But we have to be real with ourself. If I’m in a hole and digging deeper because I keep going in debt, living beyond my means and, and doing that, well the first thing, the the first priority for that person is stop digging. We’re we’re not gonna, we’re not getting outta the hole by digging further. So we have to stop digging. And that could be let’s examine the expenses, let’s figure out what, where the money’s going, why it’s going out, be real critical on, on what we’re doing. It could be that we look to the other side of the equation, Hey, you’re not making enough. MA (15:19): We gotta get a bigger shovel. We gotta get more income. And I think one of the biggest things, especially in a personal brand type of environment is that, is to ask ourselves, do I actually value myself? Do I actually own the value with conviction that I bring to the table because, and am I getting paid for it? Because that we grew up in this, the industrial age thinking of time clocks and time sheets and hourly rates and, and, and billable hours and all that stuff. Commoditize everything and, and cheapens it. And that’s the risk we create when we start to think in terms of a math equation, especially if we’re talking about expertise and personal brands and that kind of thing that we have to get away from that math equation. So one of the biggest, so how RV (16:15): Would you price it instead of that, right? Like how would you think of it instead of using like the math equation and is there a different way to think about it? MA (16:24): I look at, so part of it is, is looking at the, the value of the solutions you create. So for instance, in my world, what I originally started doing was I was A-C-P-C-P-M, still a CPA, I was valuing businesses to buy and sell, but I was also valuing businesses for purposes to fight, you know, tax, tax situations and litigation. Well, someone brings me in to do a valuation for an estate that’s gonna pay an estate tax at 40%, and I have the ability to create a value, you know, to come up with a valuation that supports a reduction of that, that tax by a million dollars. Me sending them a bill for a hundred grand is a drop in the bucket. And so I look at it, I started look at my business and say, I’m gonna, I’m gonna price it based on the solution that I’m providing more so than the hours it takes to do it. MA (17:29): Now, in some cases I got burned. In other cases, if you reduced it to an hourly eight rate, I got paid $10,000 an hour. You know, but I’m trying to, because the other thing is, I think it’s important for us to have the conversations with the potential clients. And, and in, in, in the frame of, of value, we don’t talk price without the context of value. It just, it just doesn’t, it doesn’t play well. And in the, the, the risk, I had a, a, one of the top tax attorneys, he, he since passed away in Beverly Hills. He brought me into to meet with a client, have the conversation, see if I was gonna be the one that they would hire. And then when the client says, how much is this gonna cost, I hemmed and hawed and I didn’t. And I, I hesitated. MA (18:19): And once the client left that the attorney Elliot looked at me, he says, if you ever do that again, I’ll never bring you another client. He says, you need to understand that you have a specific set of skills and expertise that you bring to the table, and you have to own them. The reason you hemmed and hawed is because, one, you didn’t own it. Two, you believe that it is your job to justify your price and your value to the client. He says, no, it’s your job to own your value. Put it on the table and sit there quietly. And the client is the client’s job to deal with it. And either they will or they won’t and, and leave it. Leave it that way. And so all of my pricing, other than government contracts, which required an hourly rate that I did all of my pricing was, was project pricing based upon what I saw the value of the solution was. And either they, they decided to hire me or they didn’t, and I was okay with it. RV (19:16): Mm-Hmm. . And so it’s not based on the time you’re putting, it’s based on the what the value is is to them. MA (19:23): Yeah. And then, you know, and with, you know, post-cancer and all that stuff, you start to value time and, and, and your life. So I start looking at things and saying, how much of my life force is this gonna take away from me? Do I really want to get on the plane? Do I really want to do that? So, so I start to price things out saying, that makes it worthwhile for me. Now, is there a math equation behind it? Likely not. It’s, it’s me sitting back saying, I’m, I’m okay, this is the value of what, what I, what I can create for you and I’m willing to, to, to, to own it. RV (19:59): What if it’s not an empirical thing, right? Like it’s one thing to go, I can save you X percent on your taxes, or I can help you grow your revenue. You know, I can help you double your revenue, but what if it’s more you know, I can say, help you save your marriage or, you know, or like, I can help you get in better shape. I can, I can, it, it, it’s more per I can restore your relationship with your kids. Yeah. I, I get, you know, some of these like non non empirical types of scenarios. Is there a way to still do that, do you think? Or do you, is it, does it only work in certain environments? MA (20:37): You know, it’s, it’s harder to do it in there because it’s, it’s, it’s not as easy to quantify in, in that perspective. But I look at it and I go, the first doctor I went and saw for my, when they, they found the tumor was very flippant when we went in, he says, ah, it’s my bread and butter. And he just kind of, and, but he sat on the, on the original CT scan for 11 days. And I thought, and now he says, I need you in surgery right now. And I said, how is it that now it’s an emergency, but you sat on the CT scan for 11 days and I, so we made calls to different doctors and this, this one doctor came up three times and called his office sitting in the parking lot of the original doctor before we left. We called this doctor’s office. He says, we have an opening tomorrow morning, 9:00 AM do you wanna come in? And I said, yes. I didn’t ask the price, MA (21:32): I didn’t care. Now I was for, I’m fortunately in a financial position to not worry about it. But, but the solution was because I looked at it and go, this could be the death of me. You know, this could mean losing my life. And so I don’t know how to put a price tag on that. And so I didn’t ask the price, I didn’t look at it from that perspective. I just said, give me the best and I’ll figure out a way to make this work. Because the pain of losing life, not being here to live with my wife and my kids and the grandkids and all that stuff was too great. And so there was still a, a transactional analysis, even though it wasn’t monetary. It was, it was, it was still something. I looked at it and said, I, I can’t put a price on it other than the fact that I wanna be here. RV (22:26): Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. . So I wanna talk, I want to change directions a little bit and talk about retire. You’re in retirement for second to second because it’s, I feel like retirement is this, it’s a little bit tricky because you go, the most powerful way to plan for retirement is to do it early when you don’t have any money. . If you wait too long though, it’s like, then you, then it’s like, then you really need to do it ’cause you’re coming up on it. But it’s like, there’s always this conundrum of, well, should I reinvest the money into the business? Should I put it into retirement? Should I buy real estate? Should I buy crypto? Should I buy stocks? Should I do an IRA? And especially when you’re an entrepreneur, it’s like, at least when you’re building your company, at least if you’re building your first company, it’s like there’s not a lot of excess time to like sit around and learn all this stuff and be like, yeah, let me manage a hundred different investment ideas and learn all the strategies and like pay all the people to, to pull it off. RV (23:30): It’s like, I’m, for my business to work, typically I have to be all in on the business. And it, it, it’s like having a baby, right? Especially the first five years. It’s like, it consumes all of your attention. So how should we, as entrepreneurs be thinking about retirement and, and are there any sort of retirement strategies specific to personal brands that you think that, that really lend themselves well to like experts, right? Yeah. Speakers, authors, coaches, financial advisors accountants, doctors, lawyers, like professional service providers, you know, people like that, direct sales, et cetera. MA (24:38): All right. I thought he would, I thought he wouldn’t bark, but RV (24:41): It’s all good. It’s all good. All good. We’ll edit it out. I made a note. MA (24:47): So this is a, this is a really important question to, to look at and to answer. The first thing that I, I’d like everyone to understand is that wealth creation is a muscle group. It’s, it’s a, it’s a behavior. Our ability to build that wealth is more about our, our actions and behaviors than it is about our money. So I’m not as concerned at the beginning, especially when you’re first starting out with how much you’re putting away. What I am concerned about is that we’re getting into the habit of putting something away. So, so no matter who or where you are, I just want you to put a little bit away and we’ll talk about where in a moment. But I, but I want you exercising the muscle. And so that’s, that’s one piece of it. The second, and I hear this all the time with entrepreneurs saying, I can make more money if I just reinvest in my business. MA (25:42): Mm-Hmm. than I can in the market or anything else, or, or diluting my focus in these other, other arenas. So I agree that may be the case, but you cannot look at what your returns are without looking at what your risk is. So if all I had was my business and I’m speaking, and I’m doing work and I’m doing all that, and then the doctor says, Hey man, you got cancer and I shut it down, which is what I did. I got nothing. The risk is way too great. So the reason that I want to carve a piece off to build something outside the business is one, for you to have something in the future that isn’t tied to the business or, or your efforts in the business, but two, to diversify the risk away. So if something happened where the business couldn’t run or you couldn’t run, run the business, you still had something else going on. MA (26:46): And so, so, but we set, we tend to just look at it and say, I can make more in the business by putting all my money back in the business. And the answer’s yes, as long as you can run the business and it can continue to run. But if that, if either one of those is not true, then you would’ve been better served to have a little bit put aside somewhere else to give you some cushion. And so that’s, that’s the, the foundational just philosophy behind it. I also look at things and say, I wanna build safety first, growth second. So my job is to keep, keep people safe. The way you keep ’em safe is, is to, to have some diversification, but also keep simplicity in it. You know, you mentioned all kinds of things, crypto and real estate and all that stuff. And you’re right, you’re trying to run a business. MA (27:39): You can’t learn about all that other stuff. And if you don’t have a passion for it, it’s gonna be hard to learn about it. So keep it simple. If all I had was 50,000, $10,000 to invest, you’re not going to buy a piece of real estate. At least you shouldn’t. Because again, we come back to risk. I can ba buy one property. If I have a bad tenant, a tenant that doesn’t pay someone I have to evict long-term, vacancy, bad repairs, all those things. I can’t carry it because I got into it and I don’t have safety first, growth second. And so I tell people when you first start out, let’s just keep it easy. I want you to put it in a diversified ETF or index fund. Buy 500 companies, 3000 companies. Make it easy. We know long term, 94% of the time in over 10 years or more, that that market’s gonna go up. MA (28:38): We’ll make eight to 10% in it. You have diversification, you have liquidity, and you’re in the game and you’re doing it simply. And if you’re not sure what to go into, you go into either an s and p 500 fund, a total stock market index fund, or you just turn around and do something called a target target date index fund. Say you don’t need the money for 30 years. You pick a 2055 fund with Vanguard or something and, and you just park it there and let it roll. There’s no, there’s not a lot of thought, there’s not a lot of analysis, there isn’t a lot of management, there isn’t a lot of fees, there isn’t a lot of expenses, but you’re in the game and the money’s starting to work for you. But it has to be long-term money to do it that way. And so that’s, and RV (29:24): That you can park that it started inside of an IRA, right? MA (29:27): Yeah. So I was just gonna go there so you can, you can park it inside of an IIRA. Now in the book, I talk about the wealth priority ladder, and I literally break down where you put each dollar, depending on where you are in that ladder. And, and so, so one of the things that we might do is early on, early on, if you’re not making a lot of income, we might have you put it into a Roth IRA first, because that’s gonna grow 100% tax free forever. You know, so, so early on, I wanna take the, the, the, the tax advantaged kinds of things, especially if I’m a low income bracket, low tax bracket. The tax deduction doesn’t mean a lot this year. Put it in, I’ve got a kid, 16 and a half year old kid who joined one of my programs. We had a conversation, 17 years old. MA (30:23): He says, he got, I got a job, what do I do? I said, open a Roth. I said, great. So three weeks ago we’re on a call and he says, I funded my Roth. I said, he says, I don’t know how to invest it, what do I do? I said, how much do you fund it with? I said, you’re still 17? He says, no, I just turned 18. So he’s 18 years old. He funded a Roth. And, and so I’m thinking he’s 18 years old. What did you put in it? 500 bucks, a thousand? And I said, how much you put in? He says, well, I fully funded 2023 and I already funded 2024. I go, hold on a second. You’re 18. You’re telling me you put 6,500 in for 2023 and 7,000 already for 2024? And he said, yeah, he says it helps because I’m living at home. But here’s what happens. If he just put it in an s and p 500 fund, let’s just say it grows at 8%, it will go up 107 times before he, before he ever get, you know, is at, at retirement age. That means that he’ll have $1.2 million or more without doing a thing. It’s in a Roth. He put 13,000 in, he gets 1.2 million out. He never pays a diamond tax. MA (31:35): And, and so at the very beginning, if I have low income and I’m eligible, ’cause there’s income limits for Roth, I’m probably gonna tell you to put it in a Roth. Take the tax advantage, have it tax free down the road, then you’re not not worried about it. Then as the income grows and we do, we have more income in the business, we might put a solo 401k in to get more because the Roth is limited to 7,000 bucks. Now but if I put a solo 401k in, I can put 23,000 and if I put a profit sharing piece to it, I can put up to 69,000 or so in there and more if I’m over age 50. So the, there is a, just like a recipe, you need to know the ingredients, the amount of the ingredients, and the timing in which to do it. So there is a hierarchy that I break down that literally says, if you’re here, this is what you do. If you’re here, this is what you do every step of the way. Because every dollar that comes into our life must have a job description before we earn it. If we want it to do the things intentionally, like we talked about the way to, to get us to the goal, we want RV (32:45): IEA budget and a plan or just a plan for that dollar. It’s a plan where, where it’s going. Yeah. A, a, a plan. Well, so that is, that’s why you need this book. You also building your money, build your money machine. And like I told you, like Mel has a knack for making it simple, breaking it down, the visuals, the ladder, the, this kind of stuff is super duper helpful and straightforward. So where should we, where do we want people go, Mel, to buy copy of the book and connect up with you? MA (33:15): I’ll go to your money machine book.com and you can, you can, you’ll see the, the links there to different booksellers in the uk in Australia, Canada, us You can buy the book, come back, give, give us the receipt and we’ll, I’ll give you some, some other wealth resources and gifts to help accelerate your path to financial freedom. And some additional trainings around, around that and resources. So, so yeah, that’s, that’s where they do RV (33:44): It. I love it. Your money Machine book.com. Mel is also a brand builders group client. So if even if you don’t wanna buy the book, you should go to your money machine book.com to see how he’s got his page structured and he’s given away some killer incentives for pre-ordering his book which are super duper valuable. And Mel, I’m so grateful for you, man. I, I, I’m grateful for your friendship and just for your partnership and, and letting us speak a little bit into your life and you speaking into ours today. Brother. We’re praying for you and your family and all the clients you help and, and we just wish you all the best. MA (34:19): I appreciate you, my friend. It is, it has been a journey and it’s good to have you on, on the journey with me. RV (34:24): Thanks, buddy.