AJV (00:02): Hey, everybody. Welcome to another episode on the Influential Personal Brand. And y’all are in for a treat today. In fact, I am in for a treat today because I am getting to connect with an old friend Tom Schwab, and he just reminded me today that, Hey, do you remember that one time we were on a cruise together? And I was like, oh my gosh. I had so completely forgotten eight years ago that that happened. So this was also a treat for me today. But before I introduce Tom, I want to tell you why you wanna stick around for today’s episode. So ask yourself this question. Have you ever thought that digital marketing might actually be hurting your business? If you have ever asked that thought that, or wondered how could digital marketing help me? Or is it helping me at all? This is an episode for you. AJV (00:56): I would also encourage you to stick away. Stick around if you have ever ventured into the idea of, I think one day I’d like a podcast. You know, everyone has a podcast. Do I need one? And I know from talking to so many of you I hear one of three things. I hear one, oh man, I’d love to start a podcast one day. That’s number one. Number two is, oh, there’s too many podcasts out there that market’s already saturated. There’s no room for another one. I hear that a lot. And number three is, oh, I have a podcast. Now, how do I get people to listen to it? . So if you fit into any of those categories or you’re just wondering like, how does this digital marketing thing work? And is it for me, then please stick around. Don’t fast forward, don’t leave early. AJV (01:41): This is an episode that you want to listen to. So, well, let’s get into it. Let me introduce you to Tom Schwab. There’s a couple of things I wanna just kind of highlight. But one thing that I love is he, he is coming with a refreshing new take, a new view on digital marketing and how to use it or not. He’s got a new book that has just come out. It’s one Conversation Away. And it’s based on a data and experience and expertise of working with over six or 700 leading brands. He’s also the chief evangelist officer, love that title at Interview Valet. And so if you are interested in the podcasting world, you probably wanna learn about interview valet and what they do and how that works. And in general, it, this is also just super fun because you always wanna reconnect with people that you actually know and that know you, and that you have shared friends and shared clients, and you know that what they’re gonna talk about brings value. And that’s what we get to do today. So, Tom, welcome to the show. Aj. TS (02:46): I am thrilled to be here. AJV (02:48): Oh my gosh, I am so excited. And I’m honestly, I’m, I’m so excited because of this first topic that we’re gonna start with. And we had just a quick chat about this before I hit record. And I, this is pretty compelling and it’s pretty provocative, which is how digital marketing is destroying your business. That’s a pretty provocative statement in a world where everyone else is selling you of, like, digital marketing is the way to go. And if you’re not online, you’re dead. So to hear you say that is like, we’re gonna start right there. We’re, we’re gonna bring that to the front. I wanna know, is it, is it, is it destroying your business? What do you think? I, TS (03:26): I think for a lot of business, it’s hurting the brand, not helping the brand. Hmm. And you say all the people that are telling you more and more, more louder, louder, louder. Right? You need to break through the noise. Did you ever notice that all the people that are telling you to break through the noise are the ones that are selling the megaphones and getting us all to yell louder, louder and louder? We’re yelling, but we’re not being heard. Right? We’re getting more efficient at things that are getting less and less effective. Oh, that’s good. And, and, and with that, it’s like, we know in our hearts this isn’t working, and this rat race isn’t going in the right place. And I I learned so much from our clients. And I can remember one client came to me and I’m like, why do you wanna do podcast interviews? TS (04:15): And I loved his answer. A ha he said, ’cause I think most of social media is the digital equivalent of advertising above urinals, . And I laughed, and I’m like, okay, you’ve gotta explain that one to me. And he’s like, well, I’m a high level consultant, right? I’m a high level brand. He said, if people saw me on a park bench, if they saw me going by on a bus, if they saw me advertising in a restroom or doing a dance on TikTok, it would ruin my brand. Right? He says, I wanna be seen, not everywhere, but where my clients are Mm. Where it adds authority to me and where they’re making buying decisions, right? I think so often yeah. As business owners, as marketers, we’ve got this fear of missing out, right? Thread comes out, oh, I need to be there. TS (05:11): Well, if your customers aren’t there, why should you be? And I, I, I think back when my daughter was in middle school, Instagram was taking off, and she said, dad, you need to be there because everyone’s there. And I’m like, define everyone. And she’s like, me and all my friends, . Well, my customers aren’t there. If I was started to be there, that would hurt my brand. And I think my, my time and effort, which is always limited right, would be much better spent having conversations as opposed to just doing massive activity on the internet. AJV (05:48): Oh my gosh, I love that I wrote this down. It’s like, most people today suffer from digital fomo. They do. It’s like, oh, it’s like, if, you know, know, you know, I have to, this is so embarrassing, I can’t believe I’m gonna admit this, but just two weeks ago we had dinner with some of our friends and one of our friends is also on our, our data team at Brand Builders Group. And we’re sitting down and he had said something about threads, and he was talking to Rory, and, and I’m just sitting there and I was like, not really paying attention. And finally they kept talking about it, and Rory was talking about his content on threads. And I was like, what is threads? And they both looked at me eyes wide, and they’re like, did you just say what is threads? AJV (06:32): And I was like, I don’t wanna seem dumb here, but what is it no idea that this threads thing even existed. And it’s like, to your point, I love that. And it’s, you know, they’re so you gotta get on it. I’m like, why? Why do I gotta get on there? What, what, who’s there? And it was this, this interesting conversation that kind of developed into this concept of digital, digital fomo of, I’ve gotta get in before it, you know, it takes off versus going, well, I don’t know. Is that a platform where my clients go? Is that a platform where I should be? So I love, I love that angle. So here’s a follow up to that. How do you, in your world, and like your perspective with all these clients that you’ve learn, worked with, how do you recommend or suggest to people of figuring out where they should be online? And if, what if their clients aren’t online, then what? TS (07:31): Well, I think everybody is online in some area, right? And I would say trying to figure out where your clients are. Ask them, right? It’s a great, great marketing research. Find out other people that you are similar to, right? And you can figure out where they are, right? And if they’re finding success in those audiences, you can also, you know, sort of lookalike audiences. And I gotta admit that, oh, when we first started out nine years ago, it was more podcast guessing than podcast guessing, right? . And now the data is so much better. There’s a tool out there called Spark Toro. Mm-Hmm. by Rand Fishkin. And it’s aj it’s almost spooky where I can put in there, and I know that everybody that goes to your website, who they follow mm-hmm. , right? What podcast they listen to. And often we’ll talk with clients and say, you know, your ideal customers, where do they go? You know, they’re like, well, they listen to Harvard Business Review, or they, they get the Wall Street Journal, right? Right. Great. We can put lookalike audiences in there and you can find out where the data says they are, as opposed to just a guess. AJV (08:48): Yeah. We use Spark Touro ourselves, and I agree. It’s amazing. And it frighteningly ama it’s frighteningly amazing because it’s like, oh, that’s so creepy. You have all this data, but I love that it’s just ask your clients. Right? And it’s like, if you, but I think that’s where a lot of people make the mistake, is instead of asking who, they ask what, like, where, what should I be doing and where should I be versus going, no, who, who’s my audience? And where are they? TS (09:16): And I’ve always said, as business owners, as consultants, we always have opinions, right? But the people that have the answers are the ones that are voting with their dollars. Right. Our customers will tell us what they love and what they loathe if we ask them, and then listen to what they say. AJV (09:36): Yeah. So, I, I love that. What, what would you say is, is the best way for the person who’s listening going? I agree. I do wanna ask, I have no idea. What’s the best way to ask? How should I do it? Should I just send them an email? Should I put together a survey? Like what’s the best way to do it? TS (09:52): Once again, at, at times we get more and more efficient at things that are less and less effective, right? So you could send out a survey to all of these people, but I think you’re much better off having quality conversations with your super consumers. There’s a great book called Super Consumer by a a gentleman by the name of Eddie Yoon. And Eddie wrote it with the Harvard Business Reviews, and he said, or H B R he said that you just wanna market to your super consumer, not to everyone, right? So one of the examples that he uses in there is American Girl Dolls, right? They market to the people that buy every one, right. And all the accessories that go with it, because if you market to them, you’ll get that next ring with it. Mm-Hmm. And often those super consumers are gonna be the people that see your content and repost it. So I would look on that, and I, I’d rather have answers from 10 of my super consumers, my best clients, the people that I know I can bring a lot of value to than a MailChimp survey from a thousand people. Mm-Hmm. AJV (11:05): . Oh, I love that. It’s, that’s so important. That’s worth repeating just in case y’all miss it. It’s better to have answers from 10 of your best clients than from dozens or hundreds of average clients. Right? It’s like you’re going after your super clients. So make it small, have deep worthwhile conversations with them. And I love that whole concept of like, we’re, we’re getting so good at being so efficient of the things that aren’t even effective. I love, that’s a really powerful thing. Which kind of leads me into this, you know, sec second topic of conversation which is this concept or this idea that big fish don’t swim through funnels and whales don’t click. What do you mean by that? TS (11:50): Well, I think there’s this idea in marketing today that you are just one funnel away, right? , and it’s a great marketing thing, and I marketing slogan, if you will, and I’m all for automation, but the idea that if you’ve got a large relationship sale, if you’re doing a B two B sale or a large consulting, somebody may go through a funnel and they might click for a $19 product or a $49 product. But if they’re looking to hire you for five figures, six figures, whatever, it’s not because they went through your funnel and clicked, right? You need to have that conversation with them, you know? Mm-Hmm. , I, I remember somebody was trying to get to like Fortune 500 executives. Do you really think they’re gonna get nurtured for six months through a funnel and then buy your trip wire product? TS (12:47): No. If they wanna talk to you, they, you know, they wanna talk with the wizard and take action on there. And I think there’s a misunderstanding that what works for transactional sales at the low level can just be scaled up to relationship scale sales. You know, if that was the case, Boeing and Airbus would be, would be selling, you know, billion dollar contracts off of Facebook’s and funnels. Mm-Hmm. , it’s a totally different sale. And I think often as personal brands, as business owners, we’ve gotta look and say, is this a transaction or is this a relationship? AJV (13:25): Yeah. So, you know, and I love, and I love that ’cause I agree, it’s like there’s a time and a place for all the things, but you gotta know what you’re selling and who you’re selling to, right? So in your world, would you say, you know, with some just industry statistics or trends or even your personal insights of like, when does a funnel make really good sense? Like, when, when is doing, you know, some, you know, pay-per click ads and some funnels really makes sense for who you’re going after, versus you gotta know these defining lines between when you’re gonna need to build relationships and work through referrals and, and have real conversations versus trying to just make more transactions. Mm-Hmm. TS (14:06): , I think if you look at it on a continuum, right? At one side you’ve got high volume, low margin, and that’s where you’ve gotta play the game of buying traffic and, you know, making the pennies there. On the other side, you’ve got low volume, extremely high margin mm-hmm. , right? And so what are you trying to do? And different people can do different things. Like one of the our clients that we work with is a ghost writer, right? He has done, oh, I think it’s 50 New York Times bestsellers, right? And if, if you wanna hire him, you’re looking at good, good six figures to write that book, and you’re probably gonna have to wait a couple years for it. Well, he is got a course out too that shows you how to do that. Right? Now, he can’t use the same sales techniques on that, right? One is low volume, high margin when he starts to do an online course that’s more of a high volume, low margin mm-hmm. . So you can do those in different ways there. AJV (15:11): Yeah. And I love that too, because I think that, you know, to that point, it’s like the person who maybe buys the course today with enough, you know, relational, you know, kind of credibility over time might be a prospect for the higher ticket sale. That knowing the difference between, what am I trying to do, where it’s just high volume, low margin, versus no, somebody’s gonna wanna talk to me, they’re gonna want references. And if I’m spending six figures on something, I’m probably gonna want more than just clicking on something online. Right? Well, TS (15:41): Well, you, you’re a good businesswoman and you figured out what he’s trying to do, right? He’s got the low margin and then the high margin, and in the middle is the coaching with that too. And so that’s his idea to go out there, do the course, right. And there’s gonna be a lot of people that say, I understand the course, but I want some help with this. Maybe they can’t afford the six figures, but they can afford the coaching. So I think it’s more of a continuum. Mm-Hmm. and, you know, well, our mutual friend Dan Miller, right? Dan taught me early on, it’s a pyramid, right? He’s got the free stuff at the bottom, you know, then he is got the book, then he’s got the coaching and he’s got the one-on-one. And so it’s all different ways to help people with where they are. AJV (16:23): Yeah. And I love that we talk about that in our own business, in our own household all the time. It’s just like, it’s basic rules of economics, supply and demand, right? It’s the greater the demand, you can charge more, the lower the supply, you can charge more, right? And it’s like, if you’re on a two year waiting list, there’s a not a lot of supply and a whole bunch of demand, so you get to charge more versus that, you know, high volume, lower fee funnels. But again, time and a place for all the things, it’s just knowing when, what and for who. And I love that. No, on that note, there is something that’s kind of in this realm of how do you start bringing people in and a, attracting them and building a relationship with them that has nothing to do per se with, you know, you know, ads or funnels. But it, I would say that podcasting kind of falls into this, you know, digital kind of marketing realm in some respect. And I know obviously you’re a big proponent and fan of podcasting, so I wanna hear your take on like, how do people use podcasting to build their brand, build their business? TS (17:38): Well, I’ll talk about my personal one, right? And here, here’s being honest. Now I’m an engineer at heart, right? People joke that English is my second language and they’re not sure what my first one is, is. So I’ve written a lot of blogs in my life, but every one of ’em was a homework assignment. Hmm. Right? So for me, it’s very easy to talk, right? We can have this conversation here, and there’s a lot of problems in the world today, but there’s no better time to be alive, right? Because we can take this discussion that we had, we can get the transcript, we can clean that up and turn it into blogs, into articles to repurpose it. So really look at what’s the easiest way for you to make the content, and then what ways can you repurpose it so that you can give it to your ideal customers in the way that they wanna consume it, right? TS (18:30): Because not everybody consumes the, the same way, right? 51% of the US population listens to podcasts, right? If your audience is hearing impaired, they’re not gonna listen to your podcast. But it doesn’t mean that you couldn’t write a blog or do captions or something like that in order to repurpose that. And the great part is, from a digital marketing standpoint, it doesn’t take any more of my time, right? It used to be you’d have to spend a lot of money to do that, you know, relatively. Now with ai, you can chop that up, you can make it so much easier to get a lot of content through there. So I, I don’t look at it as an either or as an engineer. I, I look at how do you get the most with putting the least amount in? And so if I’m gonna invest the time to do a 45 minute interview, how much content can I get out of that? Mm-Hmm. AJV (19:25): Yeah. So what would you tell somebody that’s got a podcast and you’re, you know, they’re going, oh, whoa, whoa, whoa, I have not been utilizing all of the assets of these interviews. Hold on. What would you say to go back and do? TS (19:40): I would start with your best podcast, right? Whatever your, your top four, top five are, and we used to go out, out and get a journalism intern, right? And say, Hey, here’s our interviews. Could you write some blogs out of here? Could you make some clips out of these? Right? That’s what they’re trained to do. Now with ai, you can also do other ones where ask chat g p t to pull out the best quotes from there. There’s different tools online, and I’m not gonna mention any, because by the time this goes out, they’re gonna be saying, oh, those got superseded by this. But just go out there and look, and you can see the ones that click clip the best portions from that. So don’t feel like you’ve always gotta do more, more and more, right? Do more with what you have. TS (20:26): Often we’ll have clients that come to us and I, I can think of one that wanted to do a hundred podcast interviews in the month, and I was like, why? She’s like, oh, that’ll be massive exposure. I’m like, it seems like a massive amount of work to me. , why don’t you just do some really good ones and do more with every interview? You know, if you just want massive exposure you know, go out and commit a crime, right? Everybody will know your name, they’ll know your middle name, right? But it’s not gonna help your business. It’s not just about random exposure. AJV (21:02): Yeah. And I think that kind of comes back to that thing that we talked about earlier with, is digital marketing destroying your business as people think, oh, more, more, more is what we need to do. I need to post 15 times a day. I need to be on it all the time. And no, not necessarily. So when it comes to podcasting, do you have a recommendation on like, this is a good, you know, flow of how often you should be releasing a podcast if you have a podcast? TS (21:31): Well, I’ve got an opinion, but I’ve also got data behind that too. Okay, let’s AJV (21:35): Do, I’ll hear it. TS (21:36): So for a podcast itself, right? You don’t wanna do it less than two times a month, right? Ideally is typically about once a month, or I’m sorry, once a week. So it comes out weekly. And you think about it, we’re used to that with television, right? When, you know, Seinfeld came out once a week there. So that pace, people get used to it. If you start taking long times off, long time off of it, the idea that you’re gonna come back and they’re gonna find you and get back in that habit, it probably won’t hurt. Hmm. So consistency is so important. Whatever you start out with, make sure you can consistently deliver that. You know, there’s certain people that will start out with the daily podcast and then life gets in the way, right? And then they drop to two a week, and people’s first question is, well, why’d you quit? TS (22:29): Why are you giving up? Right? , . So better, better to be consistent than going up and down. Now, as a podcast guest, unless there’s a big book tour or an event, we call it a guest storm to launch a product, we typically advise people don’t do less than two interviews a month and don’t do more than one great interview a week. And that comes feedback from our clients. Because our clients said when they did less than two a month, it, they never got in the routine with it. It was always like reinventing the wheel. And the flip side is that, that one a week, that gives you time to promote it, to repurpose it, right? And, you know, the way the industry works podcast booking is typically charged per interview. So there’s people that are telling you, do more, more, more. And I just say, do more with every interview. I dunno if you can see it up there. Every, every year I have a different phrase for the year, better is better. And yeah, my wife makes, makes that plaque. And this year it’s better, is better because I got so frustrated with more is better, bigger is better. No, better is better. AJV (23:41): Hmm. I love that. So speaking of better, what would you, you say makes podcasts better? Like you do a lot, have one, I’m sure you interview a lot. What makes a great podcast? TS (23:56): Well, I don’t know that I will say podcasts are better, right? For me, they’re better For 51% of the US population, they’re better, right? On average, above average income, above average education, right? If you are in the academic world, in peer reviewed, you know, maybe that podcast isn’t the ideal one for you. Mm-Hmm. , right? But for me, it’s easy for me to create, right? And it’s also my clients are typically audible learners. They’re, they’re on the run. They can listen to ’em anytime they want, where they want at the speed they want. So it’s a, it’s a different medium. Mm-Hmm. , the other thing that I think makes it so important for a personal brand is that if I read your blog, I don’t have a sense of who you are, right? Mm-Hmm. And I could be thinking, especially today, is that really aj or is that chat? TS (24:49): G p t ? Right? you know, I can remember reading Rory’s book before I met him. You know, I, I read the book, I enjoyed all of the the information in there, but it wasn’t until I heard him that I could picture who he was and that I felt there was a relationship. And I heard the, a client the other day that said, the conversation drives the relationship. And it made me think, you know, I, I don’t know that you can have a relationship if there’s a con not a conversation. And I think there’s that intimacy in podcasting that we don’t see in a lot of other mediums. Or if we do see it, we’re wondering in the back of our mind, is that over-engineered? Is it over edited? Right? This is the same conversation you and I would be having if we were, you know, having coffee in Nashville. Right? And just, this is what we’re talking about. AJV (25:44): Yeah. I love, I love what you said about that. ’cause It’s so true. It’s reading something versus listening where you can hear the tonality and the context, and and especially if you’re watching right, then you get all the other components of it. If you’re watching it in video, because I do think it’s true, it’s like people fall in love with the conversation, but more so they fall in love with the people having the conversation. So how do you let your personality come out and doing it on audio? And then specifically video really helps people feel like they know you before they ever know you, right? That that’s, TS (26:22): Yeah. I don’t know if you’ve ever had this experience, but it’s, it, it’s freaky the first time it happens. I remember being at an airport one time and somebody came up and said, are you Tom Schwab? And my first answer was, are you a process server? Right? and I’m voice. And before he saw my face, he saw my voice. And you know, you think about it you look different when you’re traveling or whatever it is, but your voice never changes. And people really know that. And there’s something about being human that we recognize voices. AJV (27:01): Yeah. That’s so cool. I love that. No another question I have on this topic, and I have one other topic to get to and I’m watching the clock, but I just, I love this concept of podcasts since we’re on one, and we both have one. And I’m a, I’m a huge proponent and a fan of it for lots of different reasons. But in your opinion, for those people who have a podcast who are listening to this today, and they’re struggling with knowing, how do I make it better? Like, how do I become a better interviewer? Or how do I become a better interviewee? Or what makes my podcast worth listening to, to the end? Or how do I get people to want to even check out my podcast? Any tips or ideas around that? TS (27:48): Very much so. And often people will come to us before they have a podcast and they wanna be a guest so that they can go out there and almost see behind the curtain how other people do it. And if you go out there as a guest, there’s less pressure. You also can practice on someone else’s stage and see how they do it. And it’s like, oh, I like how AJ does this, and I’m gonna work that into my podcast. And so it’s a great way to do that. Another way to grow the podcast cliff Ravenscraft, I, I don’t know if you know Cliff, he used to be called the Podcast Answer Band. And I remember him saying early on, the best place to follow or find podcasts listeners is listening to podcasts . And it makes sense, right? Today if somebody doesn’t listen to a podcast, they’re probably not gonna start just because you started one. TS (28:45): Hmm. So going out on other podcasts with your ideal audience is a great way to talk about your podcast, get them back there and grow it. The final thing that I would say on that is watch the game film. And you think about what’s the difference between a professional and an amateur in sports. You know, the amateur goes out there and just loves playing the game, right? The professional plays the game and then they watch the game film. And it’s always different, right? You always learn something from it. So I, I listen to all of our clients’ first interviews to give ’em feedback, but I also recommend that they listen to their interviews because the way I hear this interview is gonna be different than when I replay it and it’s like, oh, I should have done this, or I didn’t answer that question completely. And it helps you get better. Hmm. You know, because no matter what you do, your worst interview will be your first interview. Mm-Hmm. , right? Your worst podcast is gonna be your first podcast. You’ll always be getting better. And if you’re a professional, you’ll get better a whole lot quicker. AJV (29:56): So I gotta know, since you I think that’s awesome and so fascinating, what great market research that you listen to all of those podcasts. So what’s the number one piece of feedback that you give most often? TS (30:09): The biggest one I talk to ’em about is slowing down. Hmm. The studies say that 70% of podcasts are listened to sped up, and I’ll speak for myself. When I get excited, I talk faster and faster and faster, . And if I know something really well, I’ll say it quickly. Mm-Hmm. , and let me give you an example, aj, early on in my business, a buddy of mine said, why did you call it interview ballet? And I’m like, no, it’s interview ballet with a v. I said, ballet, that’s stupid. And he’s like, yeah, I thought so too, but you say it so dang fast. That’s what I heard. And this was just talking with him. Right? I can only imagine if you’re on a podcast and you hear me say, yeah, just go to interview valet.com and it sped up. God only knows what they’re going to hear. TS (31:02): So slow down. And we had a, a client early on Arthur, Joseph Arthur has been the speech coach for the N F L for over three decades. And he’s written most of the Hall of Fame speeches and coaches him. And I remember being at the end of a call one time with him, and it was like, okay, Arthur, you do this, I’ll do that. And as a true professional, he just leaned in and he goes, Tom, you have children, don’t you? I’m like, yeah, Arthur, I do. He’s like, oh, do they listen better when you speed up or you slow down? And I’ve always remembered that, AJV (31:39): Oh, I love that . It’s so funny when you said that about interview ballet and interview ballet. I often take all of my personal memo notes of the books I’m reading as a, you know, like voice text as I’m on the go and I’m listening and I’ll pause it and I’m like, oh, I don’t have time to write that down. ’cause I’m driving, so I’ll just voice text it and cracks me up whenever I have to go back and edit all this stuff. And I’m like, I don’t know if it’s my southern accent. I’m talking too fast. And I’m like, what is that? Like, what, what did you hear? Like, what conversation? I’m like, did I, did I say those things? And it’s because it’s, it’s your accent and you talk so fast and, but it’s like, imagine that’s what your audience is hearing. So I love that. Just it’s like they can speed it up, can’t necessarily slow it down so you slow it down for them. And I think most people too, probably talk faster when they’re nervous, I would imagine TS (32:39): When they’re nervous and you know, Chris Voss from Never Split the Difference you know, great, great marriage book, great business book, great parenting book about hostage negotiation, right? And I love how he talks about mirroring. So if you’ve got somebody that talks a little bit faster, you can talk a little bit faster. If they’re very slow, you better be slow because mm-hmm. , this is AJ’s podcast. If you set it to always 1.3, that’s what it’s set at. Right? So it’s her party. I’ve got to match that and call it mirroring. AJV (33:17): Oh, that’s good. That’s a great tip for anyone who’s a guest on a podcast specifically. I love that. All right, last topic. Why leveraging other people’s platforms is better or more valuable, maybe not better, but more valuable than leveraging other people’s money? TS (33:36): I made this comment back when interest rates were what 2%. I still, I still believe it at the current interest rates. And let me give you an example. Alright. Sarah Blakely, who started Spanx, right? How did she launch Spanx? It was largely off the Oprah show. Right? Now, if Oprah would’ve said, I love this product, you know, Sarah, I’m gonna give you a million dollars interest free, just grow your business. I’m sure she wouldn’t have said no. Right? But if it was here, I’ll give you a million dollars interest free, pay it back whenever you want, or keep it right, or I’d like to bring you on mm-hmm. my podcast, right? Or podcast, my show. Right? The Oprah Show. And I’d like to introduce you to my audience in the world. You know, she knew which one she was taking. And it’s the same way, it’s the same reason that we jump on planes to go to other people’s event, right? TS (34:38): I remember seeing Rory a couple years ago up in Columbus at Lewis House event, right? He realized that it was worth his time and investment to go up there and tap into somebody else’s audience. And I think especially today when it’s not, doesn’t mean that you’ve gotta jump on a plane and, and, and take time away. It’s really just, you know, 45 minutes for a podcast interview. I think a lot of people try too hard to build their audience instead of using other people’s audiences, especially at the beginning, like, what you guys always teach, and I love this, you’re doing the right things in the wrong order. Right? If I’ve got a huge following, then it makes sense to do this. And, you know, often people will say, should I be a guest or a host on a podcast? And I’m like, it’s not an either or mm-hmm. , right? It’s like Uber, should I be a driver or a passenger? I don’t know. What are your goals? Right? Same platform. So when you’re first starting out, you know, the idea of going out on podcast interviews, that’s where you get new exposure, new leads new, new social media mentions, right? If you have a following, having a podcast is a great way to nurture your current leads, nurture your current followers. So I think the two work together. AJV (36:05): Yeah. No, I love that. And I completely agree. You know, it’s interesting, as you were talking, I was thinking about how many people in the Brand Builders group community come to us initially, and their, their goal is, Hey, I, I, I hear this all the time. I wanna make money while I sleep. I’m like, I think we all wanna do that. What, what, how exactly do you wanna do that? And they’re going, well, I wanna launch a course. And it’s like, okay do you have anyone to sell the course too? Well, I need to do that too. I’m like, okay, do you have content for the course? Well, that’s what I’m hiring you for. And it’s like, their very first thing is, I wanna make money while sleep, so I’m gonna build a course. And they don’t yet have a platform, and they don’t yet have the content thought out for it. AJV (36:47): And most importantly they forget that building a platform and launching a course takes a lot of time and a lot of money. And it’s like, back to that, you know, kind of concept of like, well, if you don’t have the platform, you’re going to need to borrow someone else’s. So who do you know who can cross promote this? Or what shows can you be on? What speaking engagements can you do? And don’t be expecting to be paid for them, right? And it’s, do you have the time, energy, resources, and money to wait that out while you do all these other things? And that’s what I, I love about this whole thing of other people’s platforms is, you know, you don’t have to have a huge platform to make a huge impact. It’s like you don’t have to recreate the wheel to make this whole make this whole car turn here. AJV (37:32): Other people have the wheels. You just, you kind of need to jump on and, and take it while you’re building yours. And Sarah Blakely is a great example. And even us at Brand Builders Group, it’s like, when we launched this company five years ago, we had no podcasts, no. So no social media, no email list. We didn’t even have a website when we launched, but we had a great relationship and a solid reputation with Lewis House. And Lewis had a huge platform, and that Lewis had a huge reach, and we launched our whole business on his podcast. TS (38:11): That is a testament, and I didn’t realize that the, the other thing I would say is you had a great reputation, right? And I think people forget about that and they’ll say, well, you know, Tony Robin sells this course. Brendan Bouchard sells this course. I I can use the same funnel, the same script, all the same hacks, right? And it’s like, but you’re not them. Yeah. Right? They’ve had those conversations, they’ve had that reputation for a long, long time. People will vouch for ’em, and after that, it all becomes easy. And once again, I, I love how you guys say doing the right things in the wrong order. And at the end of the day, we’re not optimizing for activity. Mm-Hmm. Right? We’re optimizing for the value we bring to the market, because when we bring value to the market, we also get profits. Right? Right. And what you were talking about, the conversations you have around home about supply and demand, I wish more people would have that. Right? I see. Optimizing for leads, optimizing for likes, right? That’s not what we’re optimizing for. We’re, we’re optimizing for demand to exceed supply. Yeah. Because economics in high school said that’s where profits are. And if you’re getting profits, you’re delivering value to the community. AJV (39:27): Yes. I mean, basic, basic law of economics applies to every single part of what we’re talking about here today. I have loved this conversation. I have one one last random pop question for you. Do you have a favorite podcast that you would like to recommend that you’re like, man, this is my go-to podcast. I learned so much from this podcast. TS (39:53): I, I can think of one, but I’ll say, because I listened to everybody’s podcast, their first one. I love it because, you know somebody asked me one time, what was the last podcast you listened to? I looked on my phone and I said, adoption now. And they’re like, huh? And I’m like, yeah, one of our clients were on it. It was really interesting. So I encourage people, just listen to random podcasts or listen to a podcast that you totally disagree with, with their premise, because you’ll learn something or at least appreciate them. I think my go-to one is follow your different with Christopher Lockhead. Mm-Hmm. he’s been referred, he refers to it as a D H D theater. And it’s entertaining. It’s raw and you never know what you you’re gonna get on there. It’s always something different. And always an interesting viewpoint that will make you think. And one of the things I learned from one of his guests that became our client Bix Bix, and said, if you haven’t changed your mind lately, how do you know you still have one? AJV (40:56): Hmm. I love that. That’s so good. Y’all, if y’all have enjoyed this conversation, I would just encourage you to check Tom out, learn more about him, and also check out his new book One Conversation Away. We’ll put a link to that in the show notes, but you can go to interview valet.com/ipb for influential personal brand. Again, check it out, interview valet.com/ipv. And before I let you go, Tom can you give us just a 62nd rundown so everyone knows what is Interview Valet and what do you do? TS (41:34): Sure. Interview Valet is a podcast interview marketing agency. Our mission is to personally introduce inspiring thought leaders to millions of people they could serve for the betterment of all. So working with high level coaches, high level consultants, brands, nonfiction authors, to really help them get on podcasts, not just as an ego thing, but to drive real business results. So we’ve got a team of 30 in Europe and North America. My microphone makes me sound good. My team makes me look good, . AJV (42:09): I love that. So y’all go check it out specifically if you’re trying to figure out this whole podcast game. How do you grow your podcast? Well, one way to do it is to be on others podcasts. Use that borrowed audience, and this is one way you could do that. So again, interview valet.com/ipv and stick around for the recap episode and I’ll see you next time.