RV (00:02): What an absolute honor to get to interview one of our best friends. Kathryn Gordon first, and, and foremost is a, is become a really close friend of my wife, AJ Vaden. Of course, our CEO, my business partner. They have quickly become close friends. I have been close friends with her husband, John Gordon for years. And Catherine is extraordinary. So she is a mother. She’s a business woman. She’s a movie producer, she’s the best selling author of a book called relationship grit. And she’s the host of a podcast called Catherine for real podcast. As she won AJ over just kind of with like her spirit of honesty and authenticity and transparency and it just makes me so, so happy. And so John has been a mentor of mine for years. Obviously him and Catherine have been together for a very long time. They’ve built this whole business where they built John’s personal brand. They built an amazing family and then they built they launched a book together and now Catherine has been really developing her own personal brand here recently. And so we just wanna hear about that journey and basically I thought I could get some free relationship and marriage advice from Catherine Gordon to better understand my wife. And so anyways, Catherine, welcome to the show. KG (01:28): Oh Rory, thank you so much for having me. I love AJ. It’s like, it’s been an honor just to work with her recently trying to help me figure out my brand, but I love her as a human being. She is so authentic and so real and I just, you guys are both awesome and John of course thinks the world of you. So thanks for having me on. RV (01:52): Yeah. Well, thank you. So one of the, one of the things that doesn’t happen that often is finding entrepreneur couples, where they both work in the business, like both in inside of personal branding, where they both have personal brands. And I think, you know, that’s something that we have done and there’s a few others. Sometimes they’ll work together and, and one person has more of the personal brand and the other person is more like kind of behind the scenes, but you and John both have these external facing these great personal brands, you wrote the book together. And so I, I thought we would start with the book. So relationship grit comes out. It’s a best seller. You guys did this. So tell me about that book. Why did you write that book? And let’s kind of start, start with what that’s all about. KG (02:50): All right. So, you know, it’s funny because you were talking about couples having their own personal brand and early on when John was just starting. Well, we actually started or started with a FRA franchise called Mo Southwest grill and we brought it down to Florida and we worked side by side. John was in the restaurant doing his thing and I would, would be at home the waiting for the kids to get off the bus, but also doing the bookkeeping and payroll. And, you know, John would come home. I was trying to book him to speak while we were running this restaurant, cuz he really wanted to, you know, get out there and start speaking. And he would come home after I had done like 45 things and he would ask me if I had done the 46 thing. So I wanted to kill him. KG (03:40): So it wasn’t always that we did this together. Okay. It was so funny because you know, one night after he had done this, he actually, you know, wanted to be, my husband like wanted to be intimate. I’m like, I don’t even like you. And he said, I think I might need to fire you. I think you, and I thought that’s a good idea. So, you know, we kind of rode this wave and, and, and John Rose up in the speaking. And then once I had raised our children, we had raised our children. I started to run into women at the grocery store or, you know, at the shopping mall and they would just open up to me and complain or pine or tell me, you know, things that were going on in their own marriage. And several of them were, were headed for divorce. KG (04:33): And the more I started talking to them, the more I realized I started to see a pattern. And it, it was really simple things because the one question I seemed to always ask when these women would, would tell me what was going on was, have you shared that with him? Did you communicate with that with him and nine times outta 10? No. And so I was really shocked to find that so many couples are married, but they don’t communicate. So I went home to John and the more I started talking about this, I said, I really feel like we need to write a book because our book is not a book about, oh my gosh, look at us. Our marriage is so great. Look what we did. Here’s all the great things about our marriage. Our book is about here is what we went through. KG (05:25): We went through the trenches. I mean, we went through some really, really hard times. I was very, very sick early on. There was some infidelity, there’s been some substance abuse. I mean, we’ve really ran the gamut. And so I really felt like if we could, if we could, if we could make it, anybody could. And so I wanted to write this book to, to try and save marriages. And so in the book, the way we wrote it, and even the way we wrote, it’s very symbiotic of our relationship. I would sit down and write a chapter and, and, and get up. John would sit down, edit what I wrote and then write his own and vice versa. I’d edit him and he’d edit me. But it was a back and forth. Our book is a back and forth. It’s the it’s Catherine said and it’s John said. And so that was the reason we, we wanted to write this book and it was, I think no coincidence that it ended up coming out right before the pandemic, because I have to tell you, there were times during the pandemic, John Gordon was home 24 hours a RV (06:36): KG (06:37): Now listen, Laurie. RV (06:39): After years of being gone. Yes. KG (06:41): For, for the year before he had done 85 speaking engagements on the road, all of a sudden he was like, literally with me nonstop. So definitely there were times we had to open up the book and, and take some of our own advice. RV (06:56): wow. Yeah. So that’s, that’s powerful. Like you, it’s amazing how easy it is to live together with someone and not communicate like you talk, but so much of it is just like this survival mode right of going, oh my gosh, like you’ve got you know, the kids, you’ve got the laundry, you’ve got stuff breaking in the, with the house. You’ve got haircuts, buying clothes, groceries, dry cleaning, you know, like just getting your own personal care that children, schools travel Christmas presents, birthday presents like, like you have all this massive, never ending pile of just overwhelming stuff, which is before you even touch a business. Yeah. Like before you, even before you even touch, you know, like work there’s all this other work and then you have the money and like, okay, how are we paying the bills? And what are we doing for retirement? RV (08:12): And how are we saving for the kids? This are we’re going on vacation. We need a new car and da, da, da, da. And then it’s like, you get to the end of the day. And you’re like, I’m exhausted. Like, I, I don’t wanna think, I, I, I can’t think like I don’t, I don’t have anything left. And so you go by the time the kids go to sleep and everything is quiet and you’ve eaten dinner and you’ve cleaned up and it’s like, you got, you got nothing left. So is that kind of what y’all were going through? Cuz I I’m describing, I’m not describing my life. I’m describing other people’s lives, but I’ve heard that other people have this, this scenario. KG (08:47): Well, Rory, you just described our life. I mean, yes, it was, it was hard. And so what I tell couples, because I actually hear exactly what you just said all the time. We all, I think struggle with that to one degree or another. I think at the end of the day, you need to realize that you’re a team and it’s it’s we, not me. What are the things that we found that was, was really helpful for us is going the extra mile. It’s that little thing. And trust me, John would come in, he had been traveling nonstop. I wanted to pounce on him to rather share, you know, a good or bad situation with one of our kids. So I had to figure out, you know what, I need to give John this buffer zone. And so we need to give each other buffer zones. KG (09:41): And then after that, really, even though what you really wanna do is look after yourself, try to give a little bit of time what, whatever it is, you know, go out and help, help your wife unload the groceries. Just really try to, to, to give, even though you feel like you’re, you’re about, you know, you’ve, you’ve reached your limit. What we started to find John’s word one year was oh my gosh, I gotta make sure I say it, say it right. It was serve. And it was the best year of my life. it was the best year of my life, no matter what, and I didn’t abuse it, but I’m gonna tell you, so that year was a hard year with our kids. They were both in elite sports. I was running from one small town stand in hotels, but I would walk in the door and I would need help unloading the groceries or picking up lunch, meat, whatever it was. KG (10:40): And that’s the last thing John wanted to do, but he did it. And I gotta tell you by the end of that year and it wasn’t just him giving, of course it was me and F you know, whatever we needed at the time. Mm-Hmm that year of serving was an absolute game changer for our marriage. Cuz I think so many times it’s like we’re drowning and, and which one of us it who who’s more important? Well, wait a minute, John was out making the money money because I was home raising the children, but I’m raising champions for our future. You know, it was the struggle. So we really had to come from the mindset of we’re a team it’s we before me. Yeah, RV (11:23): Yeah. That it’s, it’s also a, it’s also shockingly scary how quickly you can turn against each other. Mm-Hmm because it’s like the world is coming at you and at some point you just are like so exhausted, so overwhelmed that you just kind of feel like everybody’s after you and anything that stands in your way. It’s like, you just don’t have any space for it. And I, you know, people, they turn, you mentioned the communication part. Yeah. Can I wanna, I wanna go back to that a little bit. What is it, what is it that you think spouses aren’t communicating with each other and short of being tired and exhausted? Why aren’t they communicating that thing? KG (12:11): I think it’s different things they’re not communicating, but just in general, just say let me give you an example. Well, I’m trying to think a girlfriend the other day was just saying something she’s home. She’s taking care of the kids. Mm-Hmm so she’s not out in the world. Right? Her husband, he’s got a lot of business meetings. He’s got a lot of dinners after work and she would fight with him every time, you know, he came in the door and w what it really ended up being was that she, she was feeling jealous, right. She was feeling insignificant or insecure. And I asked her, I said, have you just shared that with him? You know, just really just said, Hey, you know, I’m just, you know, I’m not, I’m not out getting dressed up all the time. I’m, you know, you’re out with, you know, share what you’re feeling, be vulnerable. I, and a lot of times, I think, because of what you said before, because we’re in this, you know, and we’re both like fighting to, to get our stuff done and get our needs met. You, you shut that part of your vulnerability down because, you know, then you don’t want it to be used as a weapon. So if you can kind of flip that and start to really share what’s on your mind and communicate that. And along with that, I think it’s really important to know when to communicate. Yeah. Yeah. RV (13:48): John, let me, let me tell you, I know I have figured out through an, an unfortunate repeated occurrence of doing this at the wrong time. I know one time you should not communicate you should not give feedback to your spouse in response to them giving feedback to you. that is something that I did wrong for so long. Whereas like, Hey, I need you to, to be better at blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And, and then go, well, what I need you to do is like, not a no way, no, like doesn’t work out, doesn’t work out super well. I think that’s one of, one of my biggest issues is like defensiveness and just AU automatically responding, you know? Well, yeah, maybe. Yeah, me, but what about you KG (14:36): A hundred percent? It’s funny you say that John Gordon used to do the same thing. And with us, it used to be really more related to the kids. Also, you know, where, you know, I’d say, well, he’d say, well, you really need to be doing this. Or, you know, and I’d say, well, you need to be doing this. Yeah. That doesn’t serve anybody. So you’re right. , it’s about knowing when, when to communicate that. And, you know, John would walk in the door, he had been traveling like crazy. I of course had been, you know, home dealing with the kids. And I, like I said before, I would sometimes wanna just jump. And what I finally realized is he needs to go unwind, maybe eat something. And then when we would take a walk, we would take a walk and it would all come out. And I mean, sometimes we’d fight, you know, we’d fight on the walk, but by the end of the walk, I, I used to say, you have to, you have to walk it out to talk it out. Because for us, that seemed to be a really great time for us to communicate. And that’s not always easy when you have little kids. And I, I, I remember that. I mean, when the kids were young, you know, you are kind of stuck in the house. And so it’s about finding that time, that sweet spot and the way to communicate. Yeah. RV (15:50): I wanna ask you about the little kids, right? So Jasper just turned five. Our oldest and then Liam is a, a, just a couple months here, away from being three. And I was having this conversation with a friend because I’m like these last few years with kids have been some of the most beautiful and fun and joyous. And also for me personally, probably the most difficult years that I’ve ever had. And I was telling them, like, not only is it kids, we also are in year four of a startup. And we already did this once before, like we already went through the pains of a startup once and we’re having to do it again. And then we had COVID and then it’s like in the middle of COVID. And like, when it, with the kids specifically, like in my mind, I have a little bit of a proof of concept with COVID because, you know, when we were building our first business, we started in 2006, but sort of the height of it really happened around 2008, 2010. RV (16:56): And that was right in the middle of the GE C the global economic crisis, like the mortgage, you know, all of the mortgages collapsed and all that stuff. And, you know, it was like, that was a, a hard season, but we came out of it and we came out of it really strong. We’ve also had the startup thing before with children. People say it gets easier over time. So like, I know that it gets easier with the business, like a little bit. But is if someone has young kids right now, is that really true? I mean, like, do you really think, Hey, those early years are different or is it always kind of just, this is just the new normal KG (17:35): Mm-Hmm . So, first off, I’m gonna tell you what I tell all parents that have young children like yours, you’re in it to win it. Like, if you can get through this phase as a partnership and as a team, you’re gonna be okay, cuz these are the hardest times. Yes, it does get easier. It gets easier in, in the, in the, in the way of time or in the way of, of being able to, to have a little bit more, you know, focus for yourself. Now I will say this, the line, little kids, little problems, big kids, big problems is true. , you know, my problems. RV (18:19): I’ve not heard, I’ve not heard that one before. KG (18:21): yeah. It’s different. You know, I mean, once the kids get to the age where you’re not worried about babysitters, you’re, you know, it, it does get easier in that way. Gosh. Especially when they start driving, of course that’s a whole other fear, right. So these are, these are the hardest times. Yeah. and this is, I’m telling you find ways to communicate, you know, in my book, relationship grit, there’s an action plan that you can, you can take, you can use. And there’s so many good things in there on how to strengthen your relationship during this time. And some of them are very basic, like asking AJ, AJ on a scale of one to 10, how well do I communicate? And then what would make it a 10 simple, simple things. And you’ll be surprised sometimes you’ll be surprised the answers that you get. So that would, might be a good thing to do. And I can offer that to your listeners. Maybe if you can put it in the show notes totally RV (19:21): It’s KG (19:21): Relationship, grit, book.com. And there’s an action plan in there. RV (19:27): I just texted her that question. So I’m gonna see what she says. Yeah. yeah. I just I was typing, so I was like, I’m gonna text this to her right now. KG (19:35): Yeah. But I’ll tell you yeah. RV (19:37): Relation, sorry. Relationship grit, KG (19:40): Relationship grit, book, RV (19:44): Book.Com.Com. Okay. Yeah, we’ll put it. KG (19:46): I have to make sure and ask Daniel if it’s back slash action plan, but RV (19:51): Yeah. Daniel Decker, didn’t you meet Daniel Decker at most. Isn’t that how you guys met back to Mo that was, KG (19:56): Can you believe this was so long ago? I mean, this was 21 years ago that these guys have been together ride in this energy bus wave that they’ve done. Yeah, I think so. I think he brought his kids in for kitty, the clown night. Tuesday night. Yeah. RV (20:17): Well, I I’ll, I, I love that. Shout out to Daniel Decker. I’m we’ve been working closely together on ed by let’s book launch. So I’ve got to know, know him a lot more here recently, but the, okay, so you gotta find ways to communicate. So, so this is the hardest times, little kids, little problems, big kids, big problems. That makes, makes sense. When does it start to turn? Like what you say that like with kids, Hey, these are the, the hardest times like, cuz I think what makes it so hard is like, I never knew how self-centered I was until I had kids. Like even when I, we got married, I realized, oh, like I’m, you know, I’ve never had to worry about anyone else, but me, but, but when we had kids, it went to a whole nother level where it’s like, I don’t get to sleep. RV (21:04): I don’t get to eat. I don’t get to go to the bathroom alone. Like I don’t get to read a book on the weekend. I don’t get to lay on the beach. Like the beach is not a relaxing experience whatsoever with children. Like it, it is, it is the weekends. I’m more physically exhausted on the weekends than I am during the week. And also the battle of, you know, having toddlers and like just trying to communicate with them. So at some point that starts to turn and that’s encouraging to me to hear you say like, look, these are the toughest times. If you can get through this as a team, like you’ll make it through anything. What is that? I kind of feel like that’s happened with Jasper at like four or five years old. It kind of feels like it’s starting to turn the corner a bit. KG (21:49): Yeah. You know, I gotta tell you those when they were little. Woo. I’ll never forget a life changing moment for me was the day I was able to sit in the, at the beach in a chair and not have to run after the kids in the water. You know, I, there were little milestones where I’m like, oh my gosh, I can actually sit here. So yes, it just continually continually will improve. But like I said, you know, then you’ll start doing, if they’re in sports, it’s who’s gonna drive them. And the other thing I wanna say, Rory is, you know, you’re two professionals, so you and AJ are both, you know, you’re, you’re, you’re running this company and I have found, I’m gonna say this for the women in general. And I understand why, but a lot more does fall on the mom. It does. KG (22:44): It does, even though John was very involved with the kids in a lot of ways, ultimately it’s mom. And so it’s about having that grace for mom. And I always tell this story too. I think it’s really important to compliment, you know, your spouse and just lift them up. So I tell this story that one year when we were really in it, like I, like I say, it was very stressful. John was traveling all the times time. Both the kids were in elite sports and I was traveling all over the place, my kids and I have celiac disease. So we can’t just go to a drive through a McDonald’s and eat. I had to prepare RV (23:30): All of you have Celiac’s disease. Yeah. KG (23:34): Yeah. Whoa. RV (23:35): So KG (23:35): It was, it was really hard and I will never forget one day John coming in and he, he was getting ready to head out, you know, on another flight. And he was, had this suit on, he was all clean. He looked so handsome and Rory, I, my hair was disheveled. I’m, you know, trying to get the kids lunches. And I looked over at him and I wanted to cut him down so bad, but I didn’t, I, I, right then I realized it’s because I, I felt bad about myself, but I just thought, you know what? I turned, I looked at him. I said, you look so handsome in that suit and just complimented his face, just lit up. And I, I made a decision from that point on that I was going to compliment him and lift him up Mo at most, when I was feeling the lowest and just do this little test for myself and I’m gotta tell you, it really changed things for me. And so now I always tell couple couples compliment each other. You know, even though you probably wanna kill ’em compliment, ’em, you’ll be surprised how it changes the energy and the dynamic in your relationship together. Yeah. So Rory, you gotta stick it out. You gotta stick it out. It’s hard during these times. So like I said, one of the things is when, when, when they get outta diapers, that’s a big one is Japer outta diapers is Japer your youngest. RV (25:04): Liam is our youngest and, and he is out of diapers right now. We happen to be in overnight potty training. So we are waking up, he potty training in the middle of, so during the day, like, it’s, it is mostly he’s good, but we have to get up in the middle of the night to take him to the bathroom and sometimes, you know, change the sheets and all that stuff. But mostly if we wake up in the middle of the night, he’s fine. So like, we’re, we’re getting closer to that. The other thing is like, we went to a hockey game the other night and it was, it was, we got to watch like two thirds of the game before they started going crazy and running around the hallways. But it was like, oh, we’re almost, we can almost watch a whole movie. We can almost watch a whole game. RV (25:45): But you know, you, you, I wanna ask you this, Catherine, you mentioned the grace part cuz cuz yeah, it’s been hard on me. Mm-Hmm I can’t even imagine how much more difficult it is for AJ. I mean, she’s the CEO of our company. She’s working with clients, she’s speaking, she’s trying to do her personal brand. She’s doing the hiring, she’s managing the finances, she’s training the team. She’s creating the operational processes. She’s like developing our leaders. She’s gotta deal with me being gone, traveling here and there and two and fro she’s got the kids and then, and then she’s got all the mom stuff right on top of it. Like which school are they going to? And who’s the nanny, the, the child care, all of these things. Right. And you know, and unfortunately like one of my biggest weaknesses, like I’m worthless in the kitchen. Like I had never realized how important it is for a man to learn how to cook. Like if I could go back in my life and go, there’s one skill. I wish I would’ve learned that would’ve made me a better husband. That’s a tactical skills. Like I’m worthless in the kitchen. Right? So the, and food is a such a problem. Like it’s a massive project. KG (26:53): RV (26:54): So, so anyways, I, I say all that to say this, you mentioned, you know, give mom grace mm-hmm what can us husbands do better to support our wives? Like yes, we’re running and gunning, but there is also, there is also it’s, it’s a, there is an unfairness to this that I see. Right. Even in, as you described John as like, yes, it’s hard to be on the road, right. It is difficult. It is, it is not easy to, to perform at that level in the business. But you also get a lot of applause and a lot of praise. And you know, when you’re in a hotel room, you sleep through the night. Right. It’s not, KG (27:34): I, I can’t tell you how many times I would be on the phone at night and you know, you know, complaining dumping on John. And then I’d say, let me guess you’ve got the TV on and you can watch whatever you want right now. Right. I mean, it was hard. I RV (27:51): Think. How do we support our wives better in that, in that season? KG (27:55): I think exactly by what you just said, supporting your wives, meaning saying exactly the things that you’re saying to me right now and acknowledging to AJ, AJ, I know this is hard for you, you know, I know and acknowledging sometimes, and I’m, I can share this about John and I, John would almost wanna play it down because he, he was almost afraid if he really acknowledged how hard it was that it was gonna somehow change what he was doing. Does that make sense until he realized by actually acknowledging how hard it was for me and asking me, how can I support you? It, it really helped us. And then it didn’t make me look over at him with such, you know, resentment. I was able to, I felt acknowledged. I felt appreciated. Right? And then at the end of the day, I had to say to myself, of course I love my kids. KG (28:56): This is what I wanna do for my kids. So it kind of changed, you know, it’s the thing that John always says, like it’s the, the, the get to versus the have to, but it’s the same thing. You know, it kind of changed my paradigm to say, I get to do this, but let me tell you when, when, when you’re getting beaten down, you know, as I think moms do more than, but I hear what you’re saying. When you say Rory, I mean, it’s hard for both of you, but yeah. I think you need to support her number one, by just acknowledging that it is hard RV (29:29): And that yeah. I, KG (29:30): And that you see her RV (29:31): And it’s like the, the, the, the, the dads, at least I could tell her to, let me just speak for myself, but we get beat down too. The difference is we get a break in between the action. Like mom gets no break. It, it is nonstop even in the middle of the night, even if the kids are fine, she’s still waking up, worrying about them and like getting up and having to like, deal with stuff like the laundry, what they’re gonna wear, like whatever, having a, having a fit. You know, I, I think you know, that is, that is helpful about just going, Hey, acknowledge what I hear you saying is just going, like, acknowledge that it’s difficult because it’s, it’s not, it’s not so much that she wants you to do it. She just wants someone to see that she’s doing it. KG (30:20): Yeah. It’s not gonna change tho that workload is not gonna change. I mean, yes, you can hire different things, but ultimately it is mom. I mean, it is, mom is, is gonna figure it all out, but it’s really about acknowledging how hard it is. And then how can I support you now? I’m gonna tell you, I encourage couples. If you do have a hard time communicating, if you are hitting a brick wall in some area, there’s nothing wrong with getting some outside help. Sometimes it does take somebody outside of the relationship to coach, you know, coach and help get, get you all to a place of where, you know, you’re, you’re operating smoothly, cuz sometimes, you know, maybe you are so beaten down or, you know, you’re not able to hear it. You’re too defensive. Right. You’ve got the point where you’re, you’re too defensive. So in that case, you know, I highly recommend some coaching or some therapy RV (31:24): Mm-Hmm KG (31:24): yeah. John and I have had to do it. I mean, early on, you know, cuz I, I get to what work. Well, I don’t really believe that. Well, I think we need to ask someone else. So mm-hmm you know, it worked. Yeah. RV (31:36): Yeah, no, I, I love that. It’s I think it’s super helpful to, for people just almost as a permission thing to be like, Hey, it doesn’t mean you’re failing or that you screwed up or that there’s something wrong with you to get outside. Help. I also love what Jack Canfield says where he says if you do it before, there’s, if you do it before like before there’s an explosion, it’s called coaching. If you do it after there’s an explosion, it’s called therapy, but they’re the same thing. And if you, you know, you probably want to catch it on the front end as much as you can to avoid the it avoid the, the big explosion. Yeah. Kathryn, I love this. This has been so, so helpful. I have one, one last question I wanna ask you before that, where again, where should people go to find you and connect up with what you’re doing and like all, all of this stuff that you’re working on in your personal brand these days? Well, KG (32:31): And I also have a podcast called Catherine for real. And you can hear that on Spotify or apple. And my podcast is basically me interviewing people and I’m, I’m getting real. And AJ, your one wonderful wife has really helped me to, to, to clarify more of what I want to give and the type of people I wanna interview going forward. So check that out, Katherine, for real, and you can reach [email protected]. That’s my website. And on the website, you can access my my podcast. You can find me on Instagram, through there at Katherine Gordon. You can email me to reach out and there’s a link to order my book. And I’m gonna tell you something, I’m not just saying this because I wrote the book. I promise you read my book. It’s a quick, easy read, you know, follow the tips in the back, John and I both give 11 tips each on ways to improve your marriage and do the action plan. I, I get so many testimonials all the time from people to tell me it, it saved their marriage. So I’m, I’m not just saying that. I really believe it. If you, if you can, can check that out, read the book. I think it will help. So Rory, I’m gonna be, I’m gonna be questioning you. I want you to know that RV (33:57): I love it. I love it. So we’ll put links up to Kathryn for real.com. The relationship grit book, the Kathryn for real podcast will link all that in the show notes for y’all. Last question for you, Kathryn. You know, like I think of my mom who was a single mom, which is insane. I mean, she had two of us, two of us that were five years, two boys, five years apart. And how many times she must have felt unseen and like having to, you know, forego her personal dreams and visions and freedom and re relaxation. And now watching AJ do that as a mother, hearing your story. Like I just, I have a, a heartbreak for women who are doing so much and feeling so unseen mm-hmm so if there is a woman out there listening right now, who’s in that season where she is like doing so much and feeling so unseen, what would you say to her? KG (35:03): Mm, well, first I’d say pray, right? I really feel like my prayers and my connection with God has helped me a lot in trying to kind of pulls me outta myself and gives me some perspective. But the other thing I’m gonna say is, is nothing is forever and nothing is permanent. And remembering your why, you know, at the end of the day with my kids, when I would, you know, was running them around and you know, they were playing all these sports and I would, you know, sometimes get resentful. I started to realize like, you know what, I didn’t grow up having a, I had two alcoholic parents that had no interest in anything I was doing, and this was something I wanted to give back to my kids. And so I need to be doing that with love and knowing that one day they’re gonna grow up and one day I won’t have to do that. And so nothing’s permanent. Remember your why and pray? RV (36:06): I love it. Katherine Gordon, my friends, you see why we love her so much and make sure you follow her online and go check out her website and everything. Katherine, thank you so much. We wish you all the best. We’re praying for you and John and we’re excited to we’ll see you soon. KG (36:23): Thank you, Rory. Thanks for having me.