AJV (00:00): Hey, everybody, and welcome to the Influential Personal Brand podcast. This is AJ Vaden here today, and this is a really special and unique episode because I’m getting to do this interview, this conversation with Sarah Hardwick, who is a, a new acquaintance of mine, but she is on this interview on behalf of Giftology which is not new to me or to Rory, or to Brain Builders Group. And Giftology was founded by a really good close per personal friend of ours, John Rulon, who over the summer we’re at, we’re recording this episode in September, 2024, and just a few weeks ago John unexpectedly passed away while on family vacation. And I think it’s a very unique thing to get to be a part of a person’s legacy that literally like outlives them in a way that is felt like viscerally. AJV (01:08): I’m gonna give you guys this quick story about John as we step into this interview with Sarah. But I think this is a very good moment for us all to go. Does what we really do matter after we’re gone. Like, does our legacy really have the potential to live on, live on when we’re no longer here? Or, you know, there’s a lot of really big personal brands out there like Dave Ramsey and Zig Ziglar, and it’s like, you kind of see the, the generational change and it, it starts to lose its impact a little bit, or it has the potential to, and and then you have these moments that I experienced after John passed away just a few weeks ago. And I think this is a great testament to Giftology. I think this is a great testament to John, but also a great testament to the power of the work that you do that goes beyond you. AJV (02:07): And so after John passed away, it was probably only two weeks, two after he passed away, and I was traveling, and I got this very weird email. And it was weird because it was this introduction email that somebody had filled out a form on my personal website, not brand builders group.com, but aj vaden.com. And they had filled it out and they had said, Hey I know this is gonna sound weird, but you were referred to me by John Rulon. And I was thinking to myself, that is weird. What do you mean when? And he said to be honest, I don’t even really know how to talk about this in this form. I just wanted you to know that he’s been talking about you to me for months. I did not reach out in time, and I want to honor his legacy and follow up with you after. AJV (02:58): And so he was like, if you’d be willing, here’s my phone number. Call me. And I didn’t call him because I was traveling, but I did text him and I said, hi, this is AJ Baden. And then I realized that wasn’t enough. And so I made him a voice message, which I’m pretty sure I cried the entire voicemail. I think I had to pause like five times to get through it, . And when I finally got on the phone connected with him, his name’s Jesse Flockin, and listen to this, y’all like, this is so crazy. He goes, John has been talking about you and your husband, Roy, and Brand Builders Group to me for almost a year. And I didn’t make time for it. He told me why. And, you know, he’d sent me all your information and you know, it’s the craziest thing that he has referred me to you so many times over the last year that I never made time for it. And he goes, and quite honestly, in the midst of all of this, I wasn’t thinking about you except for I was cleaning out my inbox from emails from him, and you will not believe one of the last emails he sent me was, have you connected with AJ and Roy? And he said, wow. AJV (04:10): I just, I knew that I had to reach out. And I actually have my call with him today looking at my calendar after this interview, not probably coincidental but this was scheduled weeks ago, way before this episode was scheduled. And I have my call with him today. And we were both sharing like, wow, like the life you live matters beyond your death. Like what you believe for what you stand for, what you teach it, it has significance like a lot. And for this particular conversation around referrals and connections, I thought it was just like the greatest testament to someone’s life work to go. And you’re still doing it after death, right after death. You are still connecting people through referrals. And so I’m glad I made through that without crying. But for everyone here listening today, I think this is like a really important conversation to remind you that your work matters. AJV (05:13): That you’re, you do have the potential to change lives that you will never, ever, ever know about. And also, like when you do what you’re meant to do, when you’re, when you do that thing that you were called to do way beyond what you even thought it, it outlives you, right? It outlives you. And, you know, John’s entire thing was connections and referrals through gifting and and really just loving on people, really. And so I wanted to have this episode because Giftology is launching a very awesome referral course. And Sarah is here today to talk about referrals and the uniqueness of that. I’m gonna formally introduce her in just a second. But here’s what I would say. It’s like, this isn’t just an episode about how important your work is, whatever your work may be, that there is, there is a, there’s a component of it that will outlive you if you live into its fullness, but also the power of connection even beyond death, right? AJV (06:13): Like the power of referrals and what that has to do to help you grow and build community and build your business. And that’s really the heart of this episode, is how can we help you do the thing that’s required to help you increase your impact, which is you actually have to reach more people. And you can do that, I believe, in the best way possible through referral. So this is an, this is an interview today about how do you grow your business through referrals. So, longest introduction ever. Now let me formally introduce you to Sarah Hardwick, who is the community relationship strategist at Giftology. She is spearheading the Rich Relationship Society, which is an exclusive membership. We’re gonna be talking about that today. I’m so excited about that. But I think some other things that are really amazing about just Giftology and this entire concept in general is how you can do it in a way that actually fosters connection, not just sales. And that, I think is what is so unique and powerful about this course, this membership, what you guys are doing, and the heart of Giftology. And so Sarah, so honored to have you on the show today. Welcome. SH (07:26): Oh my goodness, I am so honored to be here, aj, thank you for sharing that story and getting through it without tears is, is a skill. But John was the ultimate connector, the, the referral king. And, and for what you said about the fact that these connections are still living on now is just a testament to his legacy. And that legacy is something that we are so, so, so committed to continue because building relationships and taking care of those relationships is, is so, so important from a business point of view, referral, sales, all those things, but also just like the heart of who we are as, as humans. So thank you so much for having me. I’m so excited for, for AJV (08:14): Our conversation. It’s gonna be a great conversation. And I know it’s gonna be great because I know that our audience and, and specifically I’m, I’m, I’m gonna pick on the Brain Builders group community just for a second, and the most loving way possible, . But one of the things that I hear all the time is, you know, where do I find more leads? How do I find more leads? SH (08:32): Yeah. AJV (08:33): And I’m like, I’m gonna tell you the easiest, best, fastest, cheapest way to grow your business is through referral. But what people wanna hear is somehow, if I can just make that social media post, or if I can just, you know, optimize this funnel or before I can, and I’m like the listen, you can try to convert strangers on the internet, or you can ask friends and family and clients who know, like, and trust you. SH (08:57): Yep. AJV (08:58): But there is this reservation, this hesitation to doing that. And so that I, I would really love to talk about that. And I think some like basic terminology might be really helpful for everyone who is listening. And so I wanna start by asking you and your opinion, what is a referral? Like, how would you just simply define a referral? What is it? SH (09:19): Yeah, I feel like sometimes referral gets this like icky stigma. It’s like this icky word, like you said, people don’t wanna ask their family and friends for business for introductions. But I would truly say it is just an introduction when we are adding value to the relationships that in our network, like the law of reciprocity is real. People want to add value to us as well. And if we’re in business, most of the time, the way that people can add value is a referral, is an introduction. And that referral doesn’t have to be a referral that’s a client. It can also be an introduction that is somebody like, Hey I have a bunch of kids and I need a ba new babysitter. Can you introduce me to a babysitter? Right? You’re still adding value by introducing that contact. So I would take the, the ickiness the stigma away from it, and really just focus on like, how can I add value to somebody’s business through introducing them to someone I know, like, and trust as well. AJV (10:23): Hmm. That’s so good because I think what you just said, it’s like people, and I think in our personal life, like I don’t think I’ve, I’ve ever heard any woman or man for that matter, I know who needs childcare help to be reserved about asking for referrals, , right? SH (10:39): Yes. AJV (10:40): But it’s because we don’t process it that way in our head. And so I think a little bit, this is like a, a psychological shift. It’s a mindset shift of going, referrals are just introduction, and I love that. And it’s anything that can add value to someone else’s life. It’s any introduction that could add value add, add value. Exactly. It’s really, really, really powerful. But I mean, like, how would you feel about even, because I think one of the things that I hear all the time is, well, how do you ask for a referral without asking for a referral? And I’m, what, what do you mean? And they’re like Don, I don’t want to say that word. . Yeah. Yeah. So how would you, how would you recommend that? SH (11:18): Yeah. How do you get referrals without asking, right? That’s like the million dollar question. I think, and what John’s strategy has always been is about adding value to people first. Whether that is the, you giving them a referral first, whether that’s you gifting them writing a handwritten note, caring about their family in some way, showing up in an uncommon way for them. I think if you add value to the relationship first, again, law of reciprocity. I’ll keep bringing it up, bringing it up. They will want to add value to you. And then being able to frame that value in a business setting of, look, hey, I’m looking to grow my business in 2024. Here’s what we’re looking to do. Explain referrals in a conversational way and get away from the icky ask. It doesn’t have to be an ask that you throw out on the transaction table, right? Or in a client meeting, it can really be about like adding value to each other’s businesses. If I’m at a networking event, like, let’s talk about how we can help each other, and if that works out to be referrals, awesome. And let’s let add value in that way, introduce people, let the referrals flow both ways. AJV (12:32): Hmm. I love that. I think that’s so, and if you guys are not writing this down and taking notes, pull over and write this down. How do you ask for referrals? You don’t. You simply give referrals first. SH (12:42): Love it. AJV (12:43): It’s like you provide value. And one way you can do that is you make a referral. Right? Exactly. It’s don’t want somebody else to do for you what you’re not willing to do for them first. SH (12:55): Yeah. And we have this we have this long list of 20 plus ways you can demonstrate value, those demonstrations of value. One of them is introducing a professional contact. One of them is introducing a non-professional contact, that babysitter example, right? But there’s loads of other ways that you can add value and kind of get that referral ball referral conversation going, handwritten notes, sending a voice memo, just following up with someone after you had a meeting and realize that their kids were homesick. And you can be like, Hey, is there anything I can do to support you in this, in this hard time? Right? So I think it’s, yes, that is absolutely the best way to get referrals, like give referrals out but also just give something, demonstrate some sort of value and that will come back and if you frame it right in the form of referrals. AJV (13:46): Yeah. I love that. And I think that’s so important because, you know, I was actually I’m in this mastermind and we had our, they call it a pod. We had our pod meeting yesterday, and this was like a really great example of that as we tried to do a best practice. We rotate, like somebody do like their like little 10 minute TED talk. And yesterday was on like social media growth and at the end, so she did her whole 10 minutes. She was like, I have a whole course on this. I’m gonna give you my top 10 minutes. Like, these are the things that I think would be applicable to all of you. And at the end of it, we were all like, so how do we buy your course ? You know? Yeah. But I think that’s the whole thing. It’s like, it was just 10 minutes of value and she was like, no, no, no, I’ll give it to you for free. And literally we were like, no, that warrants payment like that 12 minutes, that’s what you gave us for free. And I think one of the things that’s so powerful for everyone to hear, it’s like, make your content so good. Make the value so good that people are like, no, I need to pay you. Like, I want to return the favor. AJV (14:47): You know? Yeah. SH (14:48): I I love that you just brought that example up because I think sometimes the gap is where we add all of this value and then we don’t know how to receive people’s gratitude or payment or whatever that looks like. So we need to be strategic about like, okay, we’re gonna add all this value to a relationship, but also be prepared for them to come back and be like, Hey, how can I help you? What can I do for you? And that’s when you need to have that referral communication ready of like, I’m doing this in 2024. This is what a good referral looks like for me. This is what a bad client looks like for me. Like, give people who want to help you a clear vision of how they can help you, especially in the referral world. And that’s where like the idea of having a referral conversation with someone, we call it a clarity conversation. Get clear on two people’s needs rather than having just like a quick referral ask. And you’re like in the parking lot, like, bye, okay, hope, hope you send me somebody. Right? that is where like the real difference comes in. I think a lot of business leaders have a gap there. AJV (15:58): That’s so, and you know, it’s so interesting. I’m so glad that you brought that up. ’cause One of the things I have on my little question chart for you too, AJV (16:06): When, when someone says, Hey, that was amazing. How can I help you? Like, Mm-Hmm, , what, what do we need to be prepared with in terms of, you know, assuming our ask is referral? So right, this is on the context of yeah, you can help me by telling everyone, you know, right. But like, what is, what is that clarifying conversation? What do we need to have prepared in order to make it easy for someone else to get a referral? And I’ll just give you one quick case study. Yeah. I get asked for referrals all the time, and I don’t mind it. I love it. But I literally have heard people say and I will ask. I’m like, okay, well tell me exactly who I can refer you to. And they’re like, anyone, what I do applies to anyone? And I’m like, SH (16:54): That’s not helpful, . AJV (16:56): I’m like, because it’s literally, it’s like, it’s like literally brain overload. I’m like, if it’s everyone that’s like, I genuinely need to think about it. And genuinely, I probably won’t make time to do that. You know, I’m just being honest. But it’s it cannot be for, like, you cannot talk to everyone in the world, right? So, no, what would you say are the most important factors? So when someone does say, Hey, how can I help you? Yes. That you have a clear up going, this is exactly who I would like to talk to. So my brain had like a little radar going off. Like, what, tell us what, tell us what we need to think. SH (17:31): Yes, I will, I will answer straight and simple three things that we teach everyone to have clear in their own mind, and then also be able to communicate clearly to someone who is asking you like, how can I help? What referrals can I give? The answer is never anybody, anyone, exactly what you said. Then you’re putting them into like this decision fatigue cycle where they have to think and they have to think about their whole network. And, and that’s not helpful. So the three really clear points that are key to this clarity conversation that we teach. Number one, what client do I serve best? And be able to paint a picture of that to somebody that can be like business size or personality, put in some psychographics. Like you really want to be able to paint a picture of if they’re walking down the street and they run into Joe who’s a financial advisor and X, y, Z deals with these types of clients and lives here, they’re like, oh my gosh, I have to introduce Joe to aj. SH (18:31): Right? So what client do you serve best? Paint that picture really well. What client do you serve worst? Like, make sure you communicate that because creating that dichotomy for them then allows them to, to not, you know, live in the world of their whole network of anybody they can like clearly sort and be like, not, not for aj, for aj, not for aj, for aj. And then the third piece, which so many of us I think just, just miss and this makes it hard for people to refer you, is how do you want to be referred? Hmm. Good. Be clear about that. I prefer a three-way text message. So everybody who may be providing me introductions, they understand that and they send a a three-way text message. Why do I like that? Because I like to send a video. And this was John’s specialty too. I learned it, learned it from him, and learned it from the best. But being able to clarify how you want to be referred three-way, text message, email, phone call, like give people those simple steps to refer you business and more referrals will, will flow through. AJV (19:39): That’s so good. You know, it’s interesting ’cause I’ve heard lots of people say before it’s like, hey, to be super clear on who you wanna be referred to. Yes. I have not heard anyone say like, also describe who you do not want to be referred to. And as I was going through this in my brain, ’cause you know, sometimes the perks of being a podcast coach or or a podcast coach is like free coaching. So this is like, so good. You know, perk of job over here. Yeah. Consulting. But it’s like, you know, I was just thinking to myself, it’s like, as I was taking my notes, it’s like, honestly one of the things in case anyone wants to send me a referral, you can do so. But you know, it’s like what we have discovered is that we are not great. AJV (20:22): We are not well positioned to serve someone who is in the position of I have to make money in the next 90 days, or I can’t pay my bills. And that’s different than somebody who’s just starting out who has a runway. Right? And that was, it’s a really, ’cause I think a lot of people referred us, people in the past are going, oh, they’re starting to build their personal brand. You need to talk to Brain Builders group. And it’s like, actually we’re, we are best and most well positioned to start to serve someone who is already probably a little bit more established, not the super beginner in terms of I have no runway has to work. What can you do for me? That’s not who we serve best. And just even being able to clarify that little thing in our referral ask will be a monumental difference for our ability to serve people the right way. SH (21:10): Love it. Yeah. That, that clarity is so, so important from a personal and your business perspective. And then also being able to communicate that. And what I’ll say to, to your point of people who have referred you business in the past, and maybe it isn’t that right fit, right? Mm-Hmm. being able, and a part of our system in this referral partner transformation course is going back to those people and refining the referral. This is a key step that we just don’t do. If something doesn’t work out, we usually are just like, thank you so much. We didn’t end up working together. Right? But like, I appreciate the introduction. No. Like strategically communicate back to that partner potential referral partner that, Hey, me and Susie, we didn’t end up working together, but here’s why and here’s what we can like identify as who you can look for better. That’s a better fit next time. Right? So being able to continue this referral conversation, again, it’s not just one ask, right? It’s a conversation. Refining that referral reporting positive progress. These are all like the strategic communication skills that, that we really lean into and, and want people to nail. AJV (22:22): And I think that’s really important. And if you’re, I’m being serious. Like if you are like listening to this while you’re driving or something, I hope that you go back and actually sit down and do some of these exercises. Mm. You’re not good at it and you, or you’re maybe you’re good at asking but not good at receiving them. Or maybe you’re not asking at all. Like this is legitimately, legitimately what you need to do to get better at it. It’s your job to be a good asker. It’s your job to be a good communicator. It’s your job to paint the picture. That’s your job. It’s not the other person’s job. ’cause I know I’ve heard of, I’m sure you have too, Sarah, of like, well, I ask all the time, but I never get ’em. I’m like, tell me how you ask . SH (23:03): Exactly. AJV (23:04): Yeah. And I think that this is the fine tuning of that. And I love what you said too, is include how do you wanna be referred? What’s the best mode of communication here? Yes. and I think that too is significant, right? Of going, let’s do this in a way that we can be responsive and do all the things that we do and include, I love that. Including a video in the text message. I think those are things that are also super helpful. So this is kind of in the same lane as that, but I’m curious, well, knowing all of that, which I think is so great, when is the best time to ask then? SH (23:39): Yeah. I will tell you the absolutely worst time to ask to start. And that is like right after a transaction or right after you sign on a client or a lot of people, they sit down and have like a 30 day, 60 day annual review with a client. Like, that is not the time. We want to separate the time that you are working for your client or adding value to someone else from the time that they are going to add value to you. So I will answer that with absolutely don’t ask at the transaction points. And that’s always been our philosophy from a gifting lens too. Like, don’t gift on the day a deal closes or at the time of transaction, right? Like, we wanna show up for people in uncommon times, in uncommon ways. When is the best time to ask? That’s why we’ve created a system around this. So you can actually like start, go through your contacts, start building those relationships, start having the referral conversations that then get you to a point where you’re sitting down with a potential partner and having a clarity conversation. So there’s not like a set time that we’re like, you have to ask now. But you definitely should be building up the relationship in a meaningful way before you ask. And that’s why we kind of need a system in order to get there. AJV (25:02): That’s good. You know, , and I love that because I’ve been through so many sales trainings in my life and my former life was a sales consultant. And, and every single time I heard best time window of opportunity right after we make the sale, honey, SH (25:19): We are definitely different in that regard. And that’s what I mean, even from a, a gifting perspective, right? Like that’s what is so different about our philosophy. We do things very, very differently over here at Giftology because we really are strategic about you showing up for this person in a relational way, period. AJV (25:38): That’s the difference. SH (25:38): That’s the difference. And of course, like there probably is studies, statistics, all those things that show that window of, of opportunity. If it feels right, go for it. But if you are looking to build a relational referral based business, we need to show up relationally for people before they do something for us, before they add value, before they send us a referral, right? So being able to systematize how you’re adding value, warm up that conversation and then ultimately make sure again, like it is a conversation where y’all are seeing how you can add value to each other. That clarity conversation, it’s not just about what you can do for me, how you can refer me if you’re a business leader. I wanna know the same thing about you if you’re a client of mine. Like what’s going on in your world that I need to know about that we’ve never talked about before in the, on the transaction table. Hmm. So I, I think that’s really important, the separation for us at least. AJV (26:37): You know what? I just had an aha moment in my brain for the first time ever of why I think so many people are actually reluctant to asking for referrals. Hmm. I actually think it’s because they correlate it to sales and they’re reluctant to selling. Right? SH (26:52): Absolutely. AJV (26:53): There is that transactional element of it’s so hard for so many people to ask for the business, right? And it’s that kind of like rejection moment, right? Yeah. And I think as you were talking of like, yeah, don’t ask at the point of of transaction, it just clicked in my brain. I’m like, oh no. Like people are actually seeing this as like a defined sales conversation. It’s a transaction. And if we can shift that mindset to be like, no, this is, this is a relational conversation, don’t ask then this is a a give to give. Not even a give to give. It’s a give to give. Yes. and give. So well give so much that people naturally go, wait, how can I help you? Right. That’s a completely exactly different mindset. And I just, I know I’ve been through, I have been the person who’s like, all right, just power through. I’m gonna ask every single time. This is when I do it. This is my process. And I think that’s fine for some people, but I don’t, I don’t believe that will get you probably the best and most quality. It may get you the quantity, but it may not get you the best and most quality. And at the end of the day, that’s what we’re after. SH (27:57): Yeah. The, the quality, the quality piece is huge. Like having that conversation with somebody to get clear on who your best worst clients are, right? Clear vision of your business, who you work with, that conversation allows for them to go out and really talk about you well, in a way that they can bring back pre-qualified pret, trusted referrals to you. And, and that’s, that’s the goal. Like if people are just out there, you ask them to refer you business and they’re out there like referring everybody and their mother to you, but, but they haven’t done the work for you, right. Of like, I am out there selling you on your behalf. So then all you have to do is take my introduction. They’ve already said Yes. I’m so excited to work with aj. Like that’s the type of referral partner we want. And and our belief is like, if you just get a core group of partners, that is so much better than just like asking every client that you have, like for, for a referral. We, we joke like our course, a lot of referral trainings and things like that, it talks about how to get the fish, how to catch the fish, how to get the referral. Ours is all about how do you collect a crew of fishermen that will go out and find the fish on your behalf? That’s good. Yeah. Like shifting the focus from, it’s not about the referral. Those will come, it’s about the referral partnership who can get you the referral. And I, and I think that that shift is, is what’s needed. AJV (29:32): That’s a good word. Because that’s a, that’s a mindset shift. It is. And I, and I love that. And I know that this is a part of, you know, this, this entire course that you guys are launching out into the world, which I’m so excited about. And you guys have this awesome acronym called Rich. Yes. Which is reciprocal, influential, connected, and humble. And I’d love to just talk about that for a second. ’cause This is, that’s very much what you just said. It’s like, Hey, don’t go out fishing. How do you, you know, recruit a crew, a fishermen Yeah. To do fishing on your behalf. And so I think, I think one of the things I lo and I love that where it’s like any good relationship is reciprocal. Like at some point, if it’s one sided going burn out, right? But also influential. AJV (30:17): So they have access to the people that you wanna be, you know, you know, have influence over the people they have access to, connected, have access to ’em. And humble is doing it in a way where no ego is involved, right? And I think that’s really important for everybody. But I, I, what I wanna, I love to talk about for just a second is how do you identify these humans, right? Yeah. It doesn’t matter. Like I know some people listening, maybe you have thousands of product purchasers, others have maybe dozens or hundreds of service clients. Maybe you’re in a very niche environment where you have maybe only dozens or hundreds of a a book of business. And I think this, this is universal. It doesn’t matter how many clients you have, it’s like, how do you find your crew, right? Who’s your, who’s your fisherman crew? That’s gonna be my new term. Who’s our fisherman crew. Yeah. SH (31:02): . AJV (31:03): So what, how do you do that? Like, what are, what are you looking for? How do you identify it? Like do they all need past clients, current clients? Like give us some high level what, what you guys think about this? SH (31:15): Yeah, that, that’s great. I think Adam Grant’s book Give and Take gives a really like high level picture of this. That there’s givers, matches and takers in the world. Most of the time we can’t really move people from one category of the other. So in what we’re describing, the reciprocal relationships, right? Like someone who’s gonna add value to your business, you’re gonna add to theirs. We want people who are in that giver category. Sure. You can maybe dabble in the matchers like you’re giving referrals one way and, and referrals are coming in the other way. But being able to identify and also realize like, look, there are gonna be people that I add so much value to and they’re just not going to give me anything in return. And that qualification process, that prioritization process of your network, of your clients, of like whoever’s at your networking group, right? SH (32:12): That is actually really important. I think a step that we don’t do all the time. We give, we give, we give. And ultimately what, what Adam Grant’s book says is, givers always win, but givers also always lose. So to be strategic about who we are giving to is important. So to kind of answer your question about how do you identify those people, I think it’s through a process of qualification. First we ask questions of like, about referrals and things like that, that before we rely on them as a referral partner, we’re adding value and seeing how they react to that value. And if they reciprocate before, we rely on them as a referral partner. So if you also like the relationships, they are a little bit of a gut game, right? Like, if you genuinely feel like you’re giving, giving, giving, and someone is not receiving that, well, someone is not adding value back to them or back to you, rather, then that’s okay. That doesn’t mean stop giving, stop, be generous. That just means they’re probably not gonna be a referral partner for you. That’s gonna change your business. And ultimately we need to prioritize a different relationship. So collect, organize, prioritize your relationships is really important. And then energize them to be really good referral partners. That’s our, our COPE system. AJV (33:35): Hmm. What okay, so I have a comment and a question. Yeah. What I just heard you say, Mm-Hmm. Tell me if I’m hallucinating and wrote this down wrong, but this is what I heard is really look for people who are natural promoters of what you do. SH (33:50): Yeah. AJV (33:51): Who are Yes. You know, ’cause I’m just thinking like through our own, we have roughly, I don’t know, 880 monthly members in our brand builders group community and another 200 annual clients. And I’m going, there are just some people who screamed from the rooftops will tell whoever will listen, you have to know about this. Right? And then there’s others that would, but we usually would need to ask. Right? I think the only difference is just, I don’t know, season of life enthusiasm projects, they’re working on natural personality tendencies could be a variety of things. And I think that’s one of the things that I just heard is like, who’s already in your ecosystem? Who is just a natural promoter of what you do and who you are? SH (34:36): A hundred percent. And what I’ll also add to that is sometimes the reason why people are not those natural promoters in our orbit is because they don’t know how to promote you. Hmm. So yes, absolutely. There’s gonna be people that are just going to like ultimately be your cheerleaders and those are gonna be the best referral partners for you. But there’s likely people in your network that maybe, maybe they’re, like, they refer other people’s businesses, right? They are a natural referer, but they don’t understand what you need, who you’re looking for, what you actually do, that they don’t feel comfortable or they don’t have the tools to go out and refer you business. So I would say it’s like an and or of, yes, there’s absolutely these cheerleaders, but also there’s probably those diamonds in the rough in your network that you just haven’t taken enough time to sit down with and explain how they can refer you. And, and so they just haven’t yet. So being able to, to run through a system, to go through your network and, and see who those, those star cheerleaders are is really helpful. And then you can add value to those relationships and, and keep the referrals flowing. AJV (35:51): That’s so good. It’s so simple, but so impactful of just taking the time to have a strategy around this. And that’s, this is a lead generation strategy, right? Exactly. If you’re gonna spend all this other stuff, why not also have a referral strategy, right? Yep. SH (36:08): Yep. I, I joke all the time. I’m like, we have literally systems and strategies for everything else. We hire people for everything else. We have a team, we have scheduled calls, we have all these other things, but when it comes to relationships and referrals, we’re like, oh, like when I think about them, like I’ll give them a call or like, we have something in our CRM that sends an automated birthday text, right? But those are not the things that are going to make people show up for you. And so we do have to build a system around it. We build a system for everything else, why wouldn’t we for referrals and, and relationships. AJV (36:43): I love that. That’s so good. All right. So that was my comment. So then here’s my question. Yes. Yeah. what is the best way to incentivize SH (36:51): Incentivize, Ooh, tricky word. Because I think a lot of times the objection coming from the gifting side of the business, right? Is like, I don’t wanna bribe people into, into giving me referrals. I don’t wanna incentivize people Mm-Hmm. into giving, into giving me referrals. And where we try to really tell people like, there, there absolutely is a fine line of incentivization and bribery. We don’t totally believe in the whole like, you know, percentage referral programs, all those things. Like we really want to build partners that love and care for us just as much as we love and care for them. So I would say like the incentivize question is just about in general, adding value. Like incentivize them with showing up for them in really uncommon ways. Mm-Hmm. that’s probably more than maybe what you would do for just a client that you work with or, or just someone in your networking group. Like show up for them in the times that they need it. Show up for them in uncommon ways. And that’s, that’s where again, our reciprocity reciprocal, like that’s where the law of reciprocity comes in. And you don’t have to quote unquote incentivize people then to refer you business. AJV (38:06): That’s good. I love that. You know, it’s so interesting ’cause I think there’s such a, what what’s the word? An affiliate mindset. SH (38:19): Yeah. Which like everywhere AJV (38:20): Is everywhere you go right now. And that’s not a bad thing. No, SH (38:24): Absolutely. AJV (38:25): How can we add in to add in addition to that, and it’s, I guess I honestly believe ’cause we, we pay 10% lifetime referral fees on any of our customers. You have to be a customer. Yeah. But if you refer us business, we’ll pay you 10% lifetime referral fees. I think our decision around that is like, Hey, we’re whether gonna pay that and other advertising vehicles, or we’ll pay you, we’d rather pay you. So, you know, but I also know that deep down no one would ever put their name on the line for something they didn’t also believe in. Yeah. It’s like, at the end of the day, I’m not gonna refer you for a dollar because my reputation’s attached to it. So it’s like, even though we have that kind of rewards program it, it is also on the back of no one’s gonna do this just for a dollar to people they know now. Maybe they put a link out and somebody clicks on it that they’ve never met before. Yeah. Different story. And I think that’s really the difference between referrals and affiliates. Yeah. It’s like, are you referring people that you know, like, and trust, or are you recommending something to you an audience? Right. Not saying either is better or worse, but I do think there is a subtle difference there of that whole process. SH (39:37): Yeah. And, and all’s AJV (39:38): Take is just no. Provide value and however that value comes, figure out what the value is and then provide it. SH (39:45): Absolutely. And what you said, like there, there is room in the marketing mix for all of these things, for you to have affiliates for maybe you to pay out some referral partners. Right? But where we have not made room in the past is these systems for adding true value and caring about the relationship first. Like those are all things, some people are quote unquote incentivized by some sort of payment, and that’s great, but other people like maybe don’t care at all. And they would really rather just understand like, wow, I’m helping AJ so much, right? Like, I, I am helping by giving this client, or I’m helping Susie by, by introducing her to aj. Like that fills a lot of people’s cups. And I think we have to recognize that like, we’re not the only givers in the world. Like a lot of other people do want to help, do wanna refer you, do you wanna give, but you need to give them the tools to do that successfully. AJV (40:48): You know, it is so funny that you say that because there’s, I think there’s two things that’s like light bulb moments for me that might resonate with everyone who’s listening is what I want more than anything else when I give a referral, I don’t know, this maybe sounds selfish, but I want gratitude. SH (41:07): Yeah. AJV (41:07): I can’t tell you how many times that between Rory and us, we’ve referred people to speaking engagements or to different podcasts or connected them with like, you know, someone they wanted to meet. And we never even got a follow up. We never got a thank you. Mm-Hmm. . And there is a part, I think there’s like a deep ingrained part of that of like, wow. Like probably would’ve been like, like the next time we hear we hear about it, it’s because we saw something on social media with them on stage and we’re like, would probably would’ve been good. So that, you know, and I think that’s a part of it. It’s like I I think back to if I’m just like sitting here thinking about like, figure out what the value is and then provided it’s like, man, that, that, that’s all I really want is I wanna know what happened and was it beneficial. And if it was, Hey, thank you so much for doing that because at the end of the day, I did take my time, put my name on the line. Right? And that maybe that sounds selfish, but that’s the honest truth is I’m sitting here going, I do not do it for dollars and cents. Like I, I just, I don’t, that’s not what I do it for. Or gifts or, but I do love a good old fashioned thank you. SH (42:16): Yes. Yes. And we all do. That’s the thing. Like gratitude is so needed, wanted, desired. And to actually bring that into your strategy, into your follow-up strategy for referrals and make sure it happens, like exactly what you said. Sometimes you refer somebody and then it goes dark for a couple months, then all of a sudden you see them on stage. Right. The difference in making sure there’s a system of, oh my gosh, AJ referred me business, I’m going to send her a handwritten thank you note. Oh my gosh, we ended up landing so and so on this stage, I’m going to report positive progress back to aj. Like those steps, to your point, they need to happen for our referral partners to feel good about referring us. And the only way you are going to continue to refer to that person is if you feel like that follow up cycle is solid, is if you feel like you are appreciated. Like, why would we do all this stuff if it’s not appreciated? I don’t need to refer you business like I, you know, it, it takes a couple minutes outta my day. Whatever that looks like. But for people who are grateful and, and use gratitude in their follow up and in their strategy for operationalizing referrals, it’s a game changer. AJV (43:36): So good. You know, I’m just making a note to myself. It’s like you know, even for like the people who don’t, of like even me being willing to go like, hey I, I would love to refer you, but I would really like an update. Like, I would really like to know what happens with this a hundred percent if it go anywhere or not. Because if it doesn’t, I wanna know that too. Like right. It’s like yeah, referring people when it’s quick, it’s on the other side. But I think that’s just even me adding that in of going, Hey, I would happy to be connecting you to X, Y, and Z. Would you please let me know how it does? SH (44:11): Exactly. And here’s the thing, aj, that’s awesome that you say that, but you should not need to be the one that that says that. Right? You should, SH (44:18): You shouldn’t need to be the one that follows up in that way. Like the person that is receiving the referral needs to have this down, needs to have this communication down so that you feel good about who you sent. You feel good that like, okay, next time I send my friend to so and so, they are gonna take good care of them because they took care of the last person I sent and they told me about how they did it, right? So that, that communication cycle, like we as people who are receiving referrals, we need to run that system. We need to have that communication stack, not you, I love that you do that because most people don’t. But I think it’s the people receiving it, it’s on us, the people that are receiving referrals to exude that gratitude to follow up to report positive progress as we say, and make sure that they know that the person they referred has been taken care of in one way or another. Even if it doesn’t work out, that’s okay. Come back and let me know and let me know what I can do better next time to refer you a better fit. Right. That’s all. AJV (45:24): So good. So, so helpful. Okay. I’m watching the clock. I know we’re almost out of time here. So here is what I wanna talk about next is yes, there’s, so like what you said, there’s so much strategy that we all put in all these different other things. And I can even tell you, I don’t know if I would say we have a clean articulated strategy, even a brain builders group after this conversation, if you would’ve asked me before, I’m like, yeah, we do . But now I don’t know if I would say like, okay, maybe it’s not as clear as I thought it was. But one of the things that I think is really important is understanding what you’re asking for, who you’re asking who, who you’re asking it from why are you asking it? And like one of the last questions that I had for you is, you know, I think one of the things that I, I struggle with even sometimes is the, the best way to help someone else get introduced. AJV (46:20): So this is the last question I have. And then actually before I do it, before I ask this last question, I wanna just like, before we get in and I forget, like I wanna tell everyone, y’all, this is a high level, amazing training of a full course that you need to go get . And I don’t say that promotionally speaking, I say that factually speaking, this is an area that most people struggle with. And if you’re gonna invest time and money into your social media and your business, like this is, this is, this is worthy of investing into. And so Sarah, where, where would be the best place for someone to go and be like, okay, what is this course? What is it all about? Where, where do I go to learn about it? SH (47:00): Yeah. Love that. Before I tell anyone where to go to learn, I always like to say like, step one is committing to building a relationship based business. Like make that commitment that you want referrals to be a strategy for you. You want more referrals, you want better referrals, right? Like, make that commitment to your business of this is going to be a way that I gather leads, I’m going to transfer some investment, some thought, some strategy from cold email and social media and all these things to my relationship. So step one, commitment, step two when, when this episode goes live, there will be a link I believe in, in the show notes where y’all can buy the referral partner transformation course. We are doing a grand reopening of, of our course as and it’s gonna come with a bunch of bonuses from John’s amazing friends and networks and colleagues and some live coaching sessions as well. So there’ll be a link for y’all to get connected. And then once you, once you guys are connected there you are always welcome to connect with me on LinkedIn. It’s Sarah Hardwick and you can, you can find us Giftology on, on all platforms and just plug in to really how you can better your relationships and make that a fruitful referral strategy for you. AJV (48:23): I love that. And I’ll put your LinkedIn profile in the show notes as well as the website for Giftology. But y’all, this referrals course is really what you’re looking for here. Yeah. And if you, if you got any value from this episode, and I’m telling you I know that you did, it’s impossible not to. I literally have a page of notes to take back to our team. And I’ve been doing this for 20 years, so I know that you did get value if you actually listened to this episode. So please go check out this referrals course. I will put it in the show notes. This is, this is kind of one of those things, if you’ve been asking yourself, how do I wanna grow my business? We’re telling you, yeah, get good at building relationships and getting referrals. That is the cheapest, fastest, easiest way to grow your business. AJV (49:09): It is. So get good at it. Make a commitment that this is worth investing into, and then go and do it. Now the last thing I wanna say I wanna ask you and then we’ll wrap up is one of the things that I struggle with is I actually really love introducing people. I I would consider myself a connector, however, I get really bogged down when I have to write all of the different intro emails or make all of the videos and say, I would say, is there a tip for everyone out there? So I’m not telling ’em, you can tell ’em what’s the easiest way that you can make it for someone else to introduce you on your behalf? SH (49:44): Yeah, I think those, those questions that we went over of the clarity conversation, giving them like where you want the introduction is maybe that first step. But to your point, sometimes the bogged down of like writing out what this person actually does, if you guys sit down, I, I wouldn’t recommend just like sending a PDF to someone and going, Hey, refer me. Right? but if you do all these relationship steps, these relational systems, you build a referral partnership with someone like you are describing and you guys are referring each other business, it doesn’t hurt to shoot an email or send a PDF or whatever that looks like to be like, Hey, you’re sending me so many amazing referrals. Like, just so you don’t get bogged down exactly what you just said, here’s a quick copy and paste that you can save, pin it to the top of your inbox, throw it in a folder, right? SH (50:31): And you can just copy and paste this into into our chat or whatever that looks like. I think also like the, my my favorite way of being referred, the video or the text message, like, just, just send a quick text. That’s all it is. Some people live in this space of email referrals. And I do think it is important to edify the person that you are referring, but that can be done over a different medium. Hey, I told so and so, so much about you, aj, they already know how much I love you. You guys should connect, like periods, send. That’s all. And trust that your referral partner did did the hard work for you by selling you already. So I would say that is definitely a problem for amazing connectors like you, aj. But we just need to equip our referral partners better. AJV (51:19): Yeah, I think that’s back too. It’s like having a crew versus asking everyone because that’s where it’s probably a little bit exhausting and it’s like, oh, now it’s this and that. So if you have your crew, then it’s like, this is, this is how you do this. ’cause They’ve already heard about you from them. And so it’s, hey, just what you just said, it would be so easy. It’s like, Hey, I’ve done the good work of doing what I’m supposed to be doing. It’s like they already know everything. Here’s the connection. Take it from here. Let me know what happens. Right, exactly. AJV (51:47): So good. So, so many like, so many golden nuggets. So much value in this episode. Sarah, thank you so much for coming on and also just being so generous with the content. These are very likely things that are in the course that we’re gonna have to pay for. And I know there’s so much more, but this has been such a generous episode of some really great strategic tactical things that people can go and do. Everyone who’s listening, again, please go to the show notes, check out this referrals course, the brand new relaunch of the this updated program helping you grow your business through the best way possible relationships. Check it out and then come back and tune in next time to the influential personal brand. We’ll see you next time. SH (52:32): Thank you, AJ