Ep 428: Podcasting- Behind the Scenes Edition with Carli Van Heerden
AJV (00:00):
Hey, hey everybody, and welcome to another episode of the influential Personal brand, AJ Vaden here. And today is super awesome and exciting because we’re gonna talk about podcasting on the podcast. One of the things I was just sharing with our awesome guest, Carly who I’ll introduce in just a second, is there are probably within our community the, probably one of the most consistent requests that we’ve been getting here lately is how do you know when you should do a podcast? Or, Hey, I’ve been thinking about doing a podcast. How do I get started? Or, Hey, I have a podcast and now it’s taking off, but it’s a lot of work for me to keep up with. Or, Hey, I have this podcast and it’s not taking off
AJV (00:54):
We edit podcasts who we have used for the, since the beginning of this podcast, but this is our second podcast with We Edit podcast. We actually use them in our former podcast, but I don’t know, Carly might know more than me how many episodes you guys have produced for us thus far. But we are five, five years and some change in well over a hundred episodes. And so I just thought what a great way to both highlight what we’ve been able to do through the lens of podcasting. And it’s been such a gift for us. But also talk about it with the person who’s actually helping us behind the scenes bring this to life and make this a reality. So if you’re someone who is a podcaster who wants to be a podcaster or who just likes listening to podcasts, this is a great episode for you today.
AJV (01:46):
So stick around if you want to learn about the world of podcasting and how to make it work for you. Now let me introduce you to Carly, who is the founder and c e o of We Edit podcast. We were just talking about this. She’s also a full-time mama which I personally relate to and I love that. But we edit Podcast is a full service podcast production agency. You guys have been around since 2015. I’m positively sure we’ve been using you since you started in business
CVH (02:34):
Oh, thanks aj. It’s such a pleasure to be here and I’m excited for this conversation. ’cause You know, if I’m not doing something about podcasting, then what am I doing?
AJV (02:44):
I’m gonna, I love, I love this conversation too because, you know, right before I hit record I had said, Hey, I’d really love for you to tell everyone, like, how’d you get into this? Why did you get into this? Because I mean, I know podcasts are wickedly important today in terms of just, I mean, I think it’s more than 51% of Americans say that they listen to a podcast almost on a daily basis. But when you started this in 2015, I don’t imagine that was the case. I know it’s grown exponentially since then. So why did you get into this?
CVH (03:18):
My gosh. So I feel like we should backtrack in time for this one. It’s honestly such a, such a memory lane thing, but you know, I had been freshly graduated on university with my Bachelor’s of Commerce in my pocket. Here I go. I had actually moved across to South Africa to plan a wedding. And then after that all happened, we decided to do an impromptu travel through Southeast Asia for our honeymoon slash I don’t really know what we’re up to, just traveling around. And my husband had launched his podcast that year prior to that. And so he was spending so much time, obviously interviewing guests, going through the process and then sitting there editing his, his show. And I’m like, man, we could be doing something else about right about now. Like, is there so that he somebody that can help you with and his, and he’s like, you know, there’s probably some freelancers doing editing work and all this stuff that he, oh, some people that he know, but there, there’s not really like a company that you can just submit click and wait for the whole thing to happen. And I was like, Hey, here’s an idea. You know, why don’t we do something like that? Why don’t we just step into this world of helping people with their podcasts? And voila, there it was. We had a podcast was Born
AJV (04:37):
You know what the, I love stories like that because it starts with your own need. Exactly. It’s like, if I can solve this, you know, need for myself solve this problem for myself, then surely I can solve it for someone else. And I love it when stories start like that because it was, it’s organic and it’s like, we got a problem, let’s fix it and then let’s help other people fix it too.
CVH (04:58):
Exactly. That’s how it goes.
AJV (05:00):
And now eight years in oh
CVH (05:03):
My gosh, it’s grown to something I couldn’t even have imagined back then, right?
AJV (05:08):
I mean, I mean, it’s pretty awesome and I, and I just know that you guys are such a great partner for us and you guys do such a great job. And so I’m really excited to hear some of your thoughts behind the scenes of podcasting, right? Because that most people listen to the finished product, right? Like everyone listening right now, you’re getting, you’re gonna be listening to the finished product, but Carly and I are here sitting at the beginning of the product and there’s this whole middle part that nobody sees between this raw recording and then what actually gets published. And so I would love to talk about all the things that happen in between that people don’t realize and then very quickly get overwhelmed with. And this passion idea they had all of a sudden turns into a really big burden. So here’s my first question for you,
CVH (06:11):
So a lot of times, like I even think to back to myself, back then, I had no knowledge about editing a podcast. Like what did I know about any of that technical stuff? It’s quite technical if you wanna go into it. I mean, there’s a lot of options to do raw podcasts and just put out whatever you record. But if you want that finished, polished look and sound, then you’re gonna have to invest in knowing what it takes to edit. And so people just get thrown off of that and they’re like, oh, I don’t even know how to do that, so I’m not even gonna get started. I mean, nevermind this latest age of video podcasting. How do I even set up a camera that isn’t a FaceTime or a, you know, this and that? What do I plug in which headphones? Which this. So you can come become very overwhelmed initially with that, that initial start. You know, like, where do I even start? Because sometimes like some people think, oh, it’s gonna be about, I don’t know what to talk about. No, that’s not true. A lot of people have their why, they know what they’re gonna say. It’s just like, now how do I connect that to essentially a podcast, you know, in the end. Mm-Hmm.
AJV (07:17):
CVH (07:39):
So what I suggest is go into your listener’s shoes, what do they want to hear? Do they want to hear you like
CVH (08:34):
So you can find that information so easily and it, the people go through it, they step by step, like walk you through each microphone option, each headphone option, the recording software that you can use. You know, everything that you can find out is out there. So you can do some research, find out what works for your budget, what works for your commitment and time and everything, and what kind of quality do you want. Do you want something that’s a live show and you’re sitting with somebody in a room chatting? Sure. Go for that option and just kind of find out what is, what is it that you wanna give your listeners and then go from there.
AJV (09:10):
Hmm. I love that because it really is so varied in terms of how advanced and you know, how you know all in show production value. Do you wanna go versus, Hey, I’m, I’m just getting started. I, I hope that my parents listen I don’t know about anybody else, right? There’s a lot of in between there. Do you have a favorite microphone that you’re like, man, this is just a go-to.
CVH (09:35):
I’m loving this one
AJV (09:36):
Yeah. Which one is that? This is
CVH (09:38):
The sure. SMM seven B, you get the
AJV (09:42):
Sure M S seven B,
CVH (09:44):
SMM seven B
AJV (09:45):
S
CVH (09:47):
You get a smaller one too. That’s a, a lower price point, which is also the sure one, which is great. But there’s a ton of new ones always coming out right now. Like you can, I mean you can even use your headphones from your AirPods or whatever you want to if you aren’t ready to commit to something. But honestly, like the quality just makes a huge difference. And then when you do choose something like an editor or someone who can help produce your podcast, it’s much easier on their side too. ’cause They can’t out of thin air create great quality audio, but they can work with your audio when it’s got a base level standard that is good and make it polished. Right. So yeah, this one is great.
AJV (10:29):
Oh yeah, I think it’s, that’s important because I think one of the initial tips that we got when we first started our podcast and our first podcast, I don’t even know when we started. It was a long time ago, maybe 2008, nine, 10, I don’t know. It was a long time ago. And we did not invest into good equipment for a long time until finally someone said to us, you know, we really love the content, but it’s so miserable to listen to. And I was like, what is, are you saying my voice is miserable? And they were like, no. Like it, the, the audio goes up and down and half the time it sounds like you’re in an echo chamber. And it wasn’t until that we actually sat down, which is pro tip number one, listen to your own podcast. We sat down and listened and we’re like, oh my gosh, this is what people have been listening to. This is horrible. And so it’s like, if you haven’t listened to your own podcast, go listen to your own podcast and you’ll know in a gif what you need to make quick adjustments for. And 95% of the time I bet it’s audio. I bet it’s audio. And if you have good audio to your point, Carly, it’s easier for the editors behind the scenes to make it even better.
CVH (11:43):
Exactly. Just how you said it right there,
AJV (11:46):
Yeah. Well, and it’s true. It’s like I think about the best podcast that I listen to and it sounds, sounds like it’s a high production show even though I know it’s them in their home office with a microphone, right? But it sounds so good and it’s so easy to listen to and that, you know, regardless of how many people are, you know, watching the audio or the video versions, most people are still listening to the audio most of the time. And so really ramping up on the audio production makes a big difference. So, okay, here’s my next question ’cause I have a long list. I know I sent you
CVH (12:37):
What’s interesting, I was chatting to someone the other day about their process of starting their podcast and they said, you know what? I actually sat down and decided what is gonna be, what is my content strategy basically for my podcast? And you decide on the form, is it gonna be interview style? Are you gonna do a solo podcast? Are you gonna do live events? You know, so when you hone on that side of things, then you can kind of get a direction, okay, so if I’m gonna do guests now I have to email all these guests, find somebody to come on my show, book it all in. So it’s like a, it’s a whole process and you have to plan it on calendars not only yours, right? Because they’re not gonna be like, oh, I’m gonna start interviewing today. Oh sure I’m available. No, they’re booking out too.
CVH (13:21):
So you have to put that all into your planning. And then the interesting thing about that is like trying to find out when you’re gonna launch, which episode is it gonna coincide with that guest’s book launch or something to help them out? How can you make it more inviting for them to say, Hey, yes, that sounds like a great time for me to come on. But that’s the thing. Lot of us have our why we are already doing it in our business. Like for me, I’m already working in the podcast industry, so for me launching a podcast, I know what my why is I wanna teach podcasters or help them or give them tools. Okay, great, that’s what I’ve got, but how am I gonna convey that? What am I gonna do to get my message across in the most effective way? Mm-Hmm.
CVH (14:03):
So I would say you just have to put that type of planning into your content to begin with before you, you know, go off like, you know, on a whim. Like, I’m just gonna try out anything. That’s not to say you can’t experiment with your podcast format. Sure, be adaptable, be open to change, but have some kind of plan so that when you’re starting out, even if you start with step one, your step three might change, but hey, you had a step three to begin with so you have somewhere to aim to
AJV (14:34):
Yeah, I think that’s really a wise sage advice because otherwise we’re just stuck in, you know, analysis paralysis. It’s like, oh, there’s all these different options. What should I do? And it’s like, no, just pick one. You can change it later, but just pick one. Since you listen to, or at least your team listens to a ton of these as you’re editing, do you see that there is a very common format that most people are still doing today?
CVH (15:02):
Yeah, I mean it depends on how often they’re publishing their episodes. So if they’re doing like a few a week, then there’s quite a variety in there. Like a sample for you guys, you have the interview and then you have your recap. So that makes for great content for you to put out. But if you’re not somebody who’s doing a recap or multiple episodes in a week, then you kind of have one format. You’re sticking to it, it’s working for you and that’s the way that you go. But yeah, people love guest interviews ’cause it’s bringing the experts on. It’s getting down to the nitty gritty of your topic at hand. And it helps to create variety because a lot of people are like, oh my gosh, I can’t think about committing two a hundred episodes. What am I gonna talk about for a hundred episodes about the same topic? Voila, guests enter. And guess that is how you do it because every guest that you bring on expert that you bring on, or even like everyday human in the street that you bring on about this topic, we’ll have a unique point of view and then you can find a way to create variety for your content.
AJV (16:12):
Yeah. Like even to that. And I’m glad, I’m actually really glad you brought that up because we decided in the very beginning that we were gonna do our full interview episodes and then we would do like our version of like a Cliff Notes episode that was like much shorter. But I will tell you consistently, and we track this pretty diligently, and this potentially is maybe just a tiniest bit of an exaggeration, but I bet we still get 10 times the downloads on our interview format than we do on our solo recaps. So then we’ve had this debate internally, well then why are we still doing them? And
AJV (16:57):
So we may not be getting a ton of downloads on the recap episodes, but it’s giving us a whole new set of well produced video and audio content that we can then repurpose for blog and social media content. And it’s original and it’s now you have this amazing one hour interview that you can recap into a 10 to 15 minute recap where you’re not having to come up with all due content topics all the time that you’re pulling from these expert interviews. And it’s allowing us to take our spin, our take on it. And it’s a way of not necessarily are we expecting to grow the podcast with these recaps at this point. It’s pretty much proven we’re not going to be doing that. But it has been an amazing tool to give us fresh, new ideas and takes and twists on things to have fresh content that we can then repurpose for blogs, vlogs, social media and other things.
AJV (17:56):
And so I would just second, I was curious, it’s at least on our show anyway, the solo episodes so far underperform compared to the interview format. And I would even say our video show, our YouTube show version versus just the normal audio doesn’t even compare it’s audio downloads. 10 x and interview format. That’s the by far the runaway winner and our tiny little micro example. So it back to that’s like people love the conversation format as you’re beginning into those stages. Now I also have this question and this is totally your opinion and you don’t need any facts behind it. But since this is your world and it has been your world for a really long time, I would love to know what do you think makes a great podcast?
CVH (18:52):
Oh my gosh. Well, I know what the result is. Like if the result is an engaged, I’m not even gonna say audience, but community around your podcast that is like the result
CVH (19:55):
So for me, when I listen my personal podcast, things that I find the most valuable and the most amazing podcast is like, there’s something that really resonates with me on a personal front. Like whether it’s to do with your mom’s, like the way that your mom taught you how to do this and that, and somebody mentions it about their mom or something that it’s like, oh my gosh. Or whether it’s like with my kids or something to do with like, everyday life or like a, a personal failure in my business or something that I can totally relate to on a raw like vulnerable level. It’s like, that’s gold. ’cause Not a lot of people are open to being vulnerable on podcasts because you wanna be like super mm-hmm.
AJV (20:43):
Yeah. And I think that’s, it’s probably true across the board at some level because if you really think about it, it’s like we’re not in, most people are not in this anymore just for the information. You can get information in a multitude of ways. I mean, I mean, think about all the ways it’s like, there are blogs out of the wazoo. There’s, I don’t even know how many podcasts, but a lot, there’s YouTube shows now, there’s TikTok, there’s Instagram, there’s whatever this new one is. Threads can’t even keep up
CVH (21:37):
Yeah, yeah, totally. That and the thing is like, it could be, it could be vulnerability too, but it could be comedy like some of the comedy podcasts out there. Like, they become so, like they draw me in. ’cause Sometimes I’m just like, man, I need a good laugh. And obviously people have a habit of scrolling social media for those things, me included, right? Because you’re watching all these funny reels and things. But if you’ve listened to comedy or like comedians on podcasts, it is hilarious. And it just takes you right out of where you are into like their world of comedy. And it’s just, you could be watching a show if you close your eyes, you know, that’s where you can imagine you are. So yeah, you’re right. It just connecting on that level
AJV (22:21):
Yeah. So why, why do you think podcasts have taken off the way that they have?
CVH (22:28):
Oh my gosh. Because I, like, honestly, podcasts has been around so long, and to answer your question about how many podcasts the latest was, there’s almost 5 million out there. And in this last week, there’s like 200,000 new episodes that were launched and oh yeah, the stats are insane. But don’t let that scare you off
AJV (23:49):
Yeah, I love that. And I tell people all the time that there’s this hidden benefit, this hidden perk of getting to be the host of a podcast, which is Free Education
CVH (25:00):
Basis? Oh my gosh. On a weekly, oh, there are hundreds of, of episodes that we go through. I mean, from the start it’s been like 3,500 plus, you know, and we’ve worked with so many different kinds of podcasters, from individual ones to big companies, to even people who are white labeling our service. So I mean, then those people just push the episodes through because it’s all of their clients that coming our way too. But yeah, I mean, I cannot tell you how many I’ve listened to and how many show notes I’ve written Uhhuh
AJV (25:55):
Yeah. So knowing that I imagine through the years and through these thousands of podcasts that you’ve edited that there are a, a couple of things that you see people do consistently well and some probably some things that you see people consistently not do so well. So if you could share with us what are some tips of the trade to ensure that you have a great episode and then what are some of those avoidable mistakes that we should be on the lookout for? So
CVH (26:29):
One of my main things is if you are gonna start a podcast, be a host, learn how to be a host. And that means listening. So learn how to listen. ’cause You, it’s great if you are chiming in when the conversation happens. But I’ve, I’ve had a lot of people who as the host, they’re interrupting their guest the whole time. So then on our audio side of things, that’s jumping into their audio, sometimes it goes over what your guest is trying to say. I know from my transcriptionist, they always tell me it’s in Anau audible. I can’t hear what they’re saying ’cause somebody’s interrupted them. So find a way to be a host and, and learn how to be a host with from listening perspective. Number one, from the second thing, if you have something that comes to mind, write it down. Have your little notepad and your pen and write something down if you think about it.
CVH (27:21):
And when your guest is done saying their thought, then you bring it up. Because if you interrupt them halfway through, your listener might not have been thinking the same thought that you are thinking about. So you then you’re interrupting the listener as well as your guest. So instead find a way to make it cohesive in that way. And then the third way I say is listen to other hosts. Find people that you think are, man, they ask such incredible questions or Wow, I just love how they transitioned from that answer to their feedback and in seamlessly into a question like, how are they doing this? You know? And some of the most like amazing g hosts like that are actually speakers, right? They’re, they’re speakers on stages, so they know these things. They ha just have a way of phrasing things or reflecting it back to their guest and that the listener learns even more just from you being such a great host. So honestly, my main things are those like find a way to be a great host,
AJV (28:21):
I, you know, that’s so interesting to hear. ’cause I think a lot of people say, make sure you’re a good listener, but in context of this particular thing, you also have to think about, yeah, you need to be a good listener. ’cause If you’re cutting off your guests or talking over them or switching, it makes it really hard for the production component of this to turn out well, or the show notes feel discombobulated ’cause you were bouncing around. I had never thought about it that way. And so following that whole concept of being a great listener, not interrupting, writing it down actually helps you have a better produced show. Not just a better interview experience, but also, I, I didn’t even think about how complicated that would be if you’re like, oh, hold that thought. You just said something and then you’re like, okay, now continue. Right?
CVH (29:24):
Yeah, exactly. And it’s a lot, I mean, sometimes it is a conversation, like if you have two hosts, obviously you’re gonna banter back and forth. It’s laughter. It’s like, not shouting, but some people are like, ah, my gosh. You know, yelling over each other. And that’s, that’s fun because that’s not really, you know, that’s not interrupting somebody who’s trying to communicate with your listeners. It’s, yeah, it’s a banter and you expect it. That’s part of the show. So, but that’s part of knowing who you are as a host too, right? If that is what your format is, go for it. If not, hang back, listen and observe and think these things through. But yeah,
AJV (30:02):
Those things, I think a lot of it comes back to listen to your own show.
CVH (30:06):
Hey, you said it first.
AJV (30:08):
Yeah, listen to your own show. You’ll pr probably be your own worst critic. You would be the hardest coach on yourself, but listen to your own show. That’s a really important part of, you know, I think about it as a speaker, you know, we are like, one of the biggest things that we always did is like we forced ourselves to watch our footage. We would watch our footage and then we would watch it on rewind. We would watch it on fast forward. We would listen to it while not watching it, and then we would watch it on mute. And so it’s like we’re looking for all these different things. But we can do the same thing with our own show. It’s like you need to be a participant of the show. You need to know what it’s like to be the listener in order to be a really good host. And then I loved your comment too of like, what are the other hosts out there that you love? It’s like, man, I love the way that they’re a good host and the way they transition and that comes from studying your craft, is you gotta find other people that you think are doing a phenomenal job and picking up those tips. And so here’s my question. Who is some of your favorite hosts? Who would you say that you just think are crashing it in the podcast field?
CVH (31:15):
Oh my gosh. The last one that I was started, like just recently listening to was Natalie, Natalie Frank on the independent business podcast. She’s just, I don’t know, she just hits it. It sounds like she doesn’t skip a beat when she is replying to her guest. She’s converting it into a question. And I’m just like burning through those episodes, preparing for my own podcast, which has just been so inspiring. But yeah. And then some of the other ones, oh, I just interviewed Ashley Menzies, Baba Babatunde, and her voice is so calm and like she just really gets you centered and like, just relax. And I’m like, okay, yeah, that’s a good quality of a host because you need to, you know, don’t sound nervous and uptight about things. You need to be calm and collective
CVH (32:07):
So yeah, I’m just like soaking up everybody. Like I’m listening to the guests that they have on. Sure. But I’m out there to study the host to really get into like, in their shoes, like how are they doing this? Like what are their, what are their methods? And just listening to everybody. And obviously you guys, your conversations are so natural and you just like, yeah, I’m just like before I know it, I forgot that I was listening because I wanted to see your style. I’m like listening ’cause I’m drawn into the conversation, people into the conversation. Oh yeah. So I’m learning a lot.
AJV (32:43):
I love that. And you know, it’s, I think it comes back to, I think often, not just in the podcast world, in business, we forget to study, just to study. We forget that we gotta hone in in our craft. We get such in the rhythm of doing our thing that it’s like, oh yeah there’s probably ways we can improve. And two best ways you can do that are listen to yourself and listen to others. That is such a good refreshing reminder for me today of like, I can’t remember the last time I listened to one of my own episodes,
CVH (33:55):
Podcast? So this is actually something that I was struggling with personally is that whole thing of imposter syndrome. Like what makes me qualified to be here? And you might ask that as a newbie podcaster, you know, somebody who’s starting out but think is all of us have something to offer? The main thing is you have to figure out what it is, package it, and then put it out there. And instead of try getting trapped in this, why, why am I here? Am I allowed to be here? Turn your mindset and become the same thing I’ve been harping on in this episode is become a student. Like have a student mindset. If you’re just there learning, if you’re open about how you’re learning in this process, no one’s going to judge you. Like, I mean, no one’s gonna judge you anyways, but you yourself won’t judge yourself either because you’re like, I’m not imposing anybody. I’m here to learn. I’m doing this. You know, just adopting that student
Speaker 3 (34:51):
Mindset, you, your
CVH (34:55):
Journey as a podcaster, as a business owner, as anybody building a personal brand. It’s just finding a way to get through that obstacle, you know, packaging your who you are and what you have to offer. And then telling people, this is how I’ve learned to do it on my journey. And people will be so glad you did it.
AJV (35:15):
Hmm. You just reminded me of this quote I saw here recently and it said be you, there’s no one else like you, so why be anyone else? And it’s, it’s such a thing as we forget our own power, our own uniqueness. When we get stuck in that imposter syndrome state and you forget, it’s like, oh yeah. Like I, I am worth being here and what I have to say is going to help someone else. And it’s focusing on who you can help versus who you can’t. ’cause You’re not meant to help everyone and it’s just focusing on, there’s a group of people for you. Focus on them. Don’t worry about the people who aren’t for you. That’s not who you’re doing it for. You’re doing it for the people who need it.
CVH (36:02):
Exactly. And I just to add to that, like if you’re going out there to create a podcast, that’s for everyone. That’s probably not the right direction for you because not everyone is going to love what you put out there. But if there’s even one or two people that are touched by whatever you’re doing, how you’re helping them, and they, like I’ve heard so many people say, you know, I’ve got this feedback from this listener and somebody who said, oh, I helped them out here. And that’s just small things and it’s can like boost you into continuing to do what you wanna do and getting your podcast and your message out there and it’s just like, yeah, go for that.
AJV (36:39):
Mm. That’s such a good reminder. So before we go Carly, tell people what exactly you guys do at We Edit podcast.
CVH (36:48):
Oh my gosh. So we have involved for everything from edit, editing, audio for your podcast, video editing for your video, podcast transcription show notes. We even have a launch package for people who want some handholding on the launch podcast launch steps and you know, the whole process. So everything is so clearly laid out on our website. If you wanna find out anything about any services you could, we’re happy to hop on calls with you, making everything as easy as possible. And obviously our main thing is people love us because of our fast turnaround and great quality
AJV (37:47):
Well, I would second what you just said, and I can’t say this about every vendor we’ve ever worked with, but I can say it about you guys, that’s all true. It’s you know, we just submitted, I don’t know, 18 hours of content to your team to edit uhhuh. And I think like by yesterday you already had like the first three episodes done since Monday. It’s like you guys are crushing it. And on top of that you know, we’ve been monthly clients for over five years and not only are you guys reliable and you do good work and you fast, you hit your deadlines, but you’re also super affordable. And you didn’t mention that I think you’re super affordable for what you guys do. So they’re one of our preferred vendors. Highly recommend them. We’ve used them for years on multiple podcasts for multiple projects.
AJV (38:36):
You guys do an awesome job and if you guys wanna check them out I will put a link in our show notes so you can go learn about all of their services and all that they do. And Carly, thank you so much for being on the show. This was insightful and helpful and it’s so good to get a behind the scenes look at someone who is literally listened to, edited and produced thousands of episodes. So thank you so much. For everyone else, thanks for tuning in. Stick around for the recap that apparently no one else downloads, but maybe you’ll
CVH (39:08):
I listen to them.
AJV (39:14):
They’re awesome. Go check it out, be the first and we’ll catch you next time on the influential personal brand. Bye guys.
CVH (39:22):
Bye. Thanks.
Ep 427: 3 Ways to Set Yourself Up for a Miracle | Tim Storey Episode Recap
RV (00:03):
Let’s talk about how to have a miracle in your life.
RV (01:06):
And that really got me thinking about how to prepare yourself for a miracle. Like how to set up the stage for a miracle to happen. And, and I don’t mean to suggest that you can just, that you’re in control of miracles in your life. I, I don’t suggest that. Like, I’m not saying that. And I, I think that God can move and can create miracles with or without us, for sure. I’m, I’m a hundred, I mean, I’m a deeply confident of that. But I also do think that there’s evidence, just like evidence in my own life exploration and then in scripture that would say that God is looking for willing participants. You know, there’s this old quote that says, God doesn’t call the qualified, he qualifies the called. And that he’s looking for someone who is willing to be an active participant in, in his story.
RV (02:05):
And that to me is, is what miracles are all about. So I wanna just share three tips, three ideas, three ways that I think will open you up to maybe be more likely to receive a miracle. I mean, who knows? But if, as I look back on my own life, I’ve had some pretty amazing things happen. I mean, in, in many ways I think of my life as a miracle. Like I think it is, it is a miracle to, to look at where I started my journey and to look at where the Lord and the people around me have led me to now. And I think of that as miraculous. I mean very, very unusual and, and, you know, divinely guided. And so, and, and I’ve had, you know, that’s on the whole, but I think I’ve had, I’ve had different versions of miracles in my own life and, and ones that I’ve seen.
RV (02:58):
So I just wanna share this ’cause I think it’s inspiring. And the first way to set yourself up for a miracle is to ask for a miracle to be willing to ask for a miracle, right? And, and I want to connect this to whether you, whether you believe in the divine or not, right? Let’s say for example, let’s say you don’t believe in the divine or the supernatural, or in God, even to me, absent that consideration, there’s, it’s, it’s pretty hard to ignore the, the, the ubiquitous nature of the power of goals and vision, right? Where people, you know, so many wealthy, successful people, I mean, there’s not a, I don’t think there’s a single ultra wealthy, successful person that I’ve ever met that doesn’t talk about the power and the importance of having a vision and like seeing something in your life, whether it’s the law of attraction or it’s, it’s Brian Tracy, or it’s, you know, pick your, pick your wealthy person.
RV (04:03):
It’s like, this is a common thing that people in a worldly way have in common, is they allow themselves to dream. They allow themselves to dream. And growing up around people who were more, we’ll say, lower middle class, lower class, you know, not maybe prob maybe not quite poverty, but, but close to it. And being around various environments of those types of people. I think I’m, I’m convinced at least in, in my own experience, that a lot of people don’t allow themselves permission to dream. They immediately write it off as impossible. And I know for my own life, the first time I ever said I’m gonna be a black belt, the first time I said that, that that was, IM impossible to me, right? I was, I was seven years old when I first had that thought. And I was like, that felt impossible. And then I remember distinctly the day I said, I wanna be valedictorian.
RV (05:04):
What, how, how, how amazing would it be if I could be valedictorian? I remember dreaming about getting a full ride scholarship. I remember being in elementary school, having this conversation with my mom about getting a full ride scholarship to college. I remember dream dreaming about being a record breaker in the direct sales company that I was involved in. I remember the first time I said, I’m gonna, I’m gonna win the world championship of public speaking. I certainly remember the first time saying, I’m gonna become a New York Times bestselling author. Not just once, but repeatedly, consistently in my life. I have pursued systematically things that have felt impossible. And so I understand why people have a hard time asking for a miracle. It seems impossible. And even out separate the divine for a second and go just in a worldly way, you go that I could never do that. That’s not realistic. That’s so unlikely. And yet, that is first and and foremost, the fundamental difference of the people who do achieve it and those who don’t. Right? I’m one of my favorite Steve Jobs quotes is where Steve Jobs says, your entire life changes the day that you realize that everything in the world around you was created by people who are no smarter than you.
RV (06:24):
I love that quote. I found that to be true in people like Steve Jobs in my own life. And in the people who don’t achieve the things that they want, they don’t ask for a miracle. They don’t allow themselves to dream. And so, in a worldly sense, I would call that goals envision, whether it’s for your relationship and your family or your company or your own physical health or your own finances to, to allow yourself to dream. Most people won’t do that. But here to go, what if you, the next level of that is ask for a miracle. And here’s something that you need to know about miracles. What makes it a miracle is the fact that it, it seems impossible. And that’s the magic of it. I think that’s why God wants to create miracles, is he wants to demonstrate his power. He wants to demonstrate his supreme authority.
RV (07:12):
And yet, in order for a miracle to take place, we have to ask for the impossible. If it wasn’t, if it wasn’t impossible, it wouldn’t be a miracle. If it weren’t unlikely to ask for, it wouldn’t be significant then when it came true. So how can you have a miracle if you don’t ever ask for one? If you don’t ever dream of one, if you don’t ever think about one, you can’t. You won’t. You, you, you’re not allowing yourself. You’re not opening yourself to the possibility of it happening. You are closing yourself off. You’re deciding upfront, you’re reaching a conclusion in advance that it’s not possible. And when you reach that conclusion, you shut the door on possibility, whether you think of it as divine or not. So the first thing to do to open yourself up to a miracle is to be willing to give yourself flexibility, permission, and grace to ask for a miracle.
RV (08:12):
The second way to create a miracle in your life, I think, to open up yourself for a miracle to tip the odds in your favor of achieving a miracle, is to walk towards a miracle, walk towards a miracle. There there is this old phrase that says, as you pray, move your feet. Right? And I love that it’s to go again, separate the divine for a second, and just think about it in a worldly way. You know, this is my, my main critique of the secret, which I, I don’t, I don’t struggle with the, the idea, the power of the secret of you. You know, you, you know, ask, believe, receive you know, I think that’s a really important part. But there’s a, you know, there’s a huge step missing in between there, which is, which is not really true, which is, is ask believe, work your butt off, and then receive, right?
RV (09:07):
That’s the real formula. So there’s all of that is true. It that’s just absent. I think a really critical part. There’s nobody that I know who said, I wanna be a New York Times bestselling author, and they sat in a room and thought that, and it happened, right? That doesn’t happen. There’s no one who has ever won the world championship of public speaking, become a, a, an eight figure entrepreneur, become a millionaire you know, built a great business, built a huge church, started a massive nonprofit, like, you know, become a professional athlete, been an amazing actor, like landed a huge music deal. We, we know people from all these walks of life, and not one of them achieved those things by sitting in a room doing nothing, not one. What they all have in common is they asked for a miracle, right? They, they, they prayed for it.
RV (09:58):
If they, and even, even if they’re not spiritual, right? They visioned it, they gold it, they, they, they thought about it, they dreamed, but then they worked like crazy. They walked towards the miracle. And all of their stories are fraught with rejection and setbacks and failure and feedback and just, you know, losses that shaped them and gave them information. And it shaped their character as a person. And it, and it shaped their, their information, their education as a professional to where they could bring those together and they could become ripe territory For a miracle, you have to walk towards a miracle. You don’t have to you know, Martin Luther King Jr. You don’t have to see up the whole staircase. You just have to take the, the take the first step. Like that is true. And one of the ways that I think about this on a, on a, on a divine level, on a supernatural level, is that I don’t think that God shows us the second step before we take the first step.
RV (11:12):
I don’t think that God shows us the second step before we take the first step. Why? Because I think God is looking for someone to bet, to bet on him. He’s looking for someone to open themselves up to receiving his presence in their life, to allowing his spirit to move in their life. He’s o he’s asking for us to be faithful. He’s asking for us to, to trust him. And how do we demonstrate trust? Do we demonstrate trust by saying, I trust you, or do we demonstrate trust through the action of actually doing something? It is, to me, it’s the latter. You demonstrate faith by actually moving towards the thing, not by sitting in a room and going, I hope this happens, but to say, to first ask for a miracle, to pray for it, or to vision it and plan it. If, if you’re in the worldly sense and not the divine sense, but then to move towards it, right?
RV (12:04):
You have to take that action. And I think of Noah building the ark. Like, you know, he, he, he’s there, there, God is blessing him because he’s looking for someone who’s willing to take action. Someone who’s willing to build an arc before there’s a raindrop, right? Someone who’s willing to gather these animals before there’s a raindrop. You have to be willing to take the first step before God will show you the second step. That’s, that’s just what I think, right? That’s just an observation. I don’t know that there’s necessarily scriptural support for that, but, but I think that there probably is. And, and, and you know, my life verses Hebrews 1211, no discipline seems pleasant at the time, rather painful, yet it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.
RV (12:53):
No discipline seems pleasant at the time, rather painful. That’s the first step. That’s the action that’s walking towards a miracle. That’s saying, I wanna be a New York Times bestselling author. I’m terrified. I have no idea how to take that step. I wanna become a Hall of Fame speaker. I’m terrified. I have no idea how to get on those stages. I wanna launch a course. I wanna start a business. I wanna find yeah, I wanna build a family. I wanna start a nonprofit. I wanna solve this problem in the world. They, they’re all terrifying. They’re so huge and enormous the first time we have them. But you, you have to step towards them. And at first, you don’t know what to do and where to go, because it’s, it’s painful. You’re learning. No discipline seems pleasant at the time, yet later on, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who’ve been trained by it.
RV (13:38):
What have you been trained by? You’ve been trained by discipline. You’ve been trained by action. You’ve been trained by taking the step, getting the feedback, adapting, adjusting, and your faith is demonstrated in the fact that you continue walking without knowing exactly how you’re going to get to the destination. And in my mind, it’s a little bit like, it’s a little bit like saying, I see the destination, but I’m not clear on the path, but I’m willing to take the first step towards the destination without, without knowing where the whole path goes. That’s a demonstration of faith, that’s walking towards a miracle is to say, I don’t know how God’s gonna pull this off. I don’t know how I’m gonna pull this off. I don’t know how we’re gonna pull this off. I don’t know how you’re gonna pull this off, but I’m, we’re gonna try, we’re gonna move towards it.
RV (14:29):
We’re going to do what we can. We’re going to do every single thing in our power to try to make this happen. And most people aren’t willing to do that. And there’s this extraordinary payoff that you get when you take action. The extraordinary payoff that you get is that if that dream doesn’t come true, if that miracle doesn’t come true, then you know, it must, because be because God had some greater plan, some reason why it didn’t, which means it’s part of a, a better plan. But if you have a goal, if you have a dream, if you ask for a miracle and you don’t take the steps in your control, you don’t do the things that you can do, then you don’t know if the reason it didn’t come true is because God didn’t give it to you, or the miracle didn’t happen, or it wasn’t in your destiny, or because the more likely truth, which is that you didn’t show up and do your part.
RV (15:23):
You didn’t do the work. You didn’t make the work. You, you didn’t make the call, you didn’t make the ask, you didn’t show up, you didn’t practice, you didn’t train, you didn’t learn. You didn’t do the things that you know how to do. That’s on you, that’s on you, and that’s on me. So if we don’t get miracles, that we can’t be mad about miracles that we ne we don’t get, that we never asked for, and we can’t be mad about miracles that we don’t get, that we never worked for. Right now, a miracle inherently is God covering the gap, God covering the distance. But I don’t think it’s just God doing the whole thing. Certainly he can, he’s, he is able to do that. But there is evidence all throughout scripture that God is looking for a willing participant, someone to step towards him. That is the sign of faith. Not to just say, I believe you, but to say, I believe you and I act in alignment with that belief. And even if you don’t believe in the divine or supernatural, to me, that’s a miracle in and of itself. It’s a miracle in and of itself that somehow, some way all of us know what the next step is in almost any dream, any goal, any miracle. Somehow all of us know what a first step could be. But God doesn’t
Speaker 2 (16:49):
Show us the second step
RV (16:52):
Until we take the first step often. So you gotta ask for a miracle, step one, step two, you gotta walk towards a miracle. Step three, you need to read about miracles. You need to read about miracles. You need to, I think you need to be become educated on miracles. And to me, there is power in reading the Bible. There is power in reading the word of God, even if you don’t understand it. Even if you don’t believe it, right? Like and, and now, now I would tell you, if you’re gonna read the Bible, I would not start at the front of the book, which is the Old Testament. And in Genesis, I would go skip to the New Testament and start there and start reading about Jesus who was a human figure, a real person. There is so much documented evidence that Jesus was, was a real person.
RV (17:50):
And by the way, I am launching a whole dedicated podcast series on this called Eternal Life. Seven Questions That Every Intelligent Skeptic Should Ask About Jesus of Nazareth. And if you go to confident eternal life.com, confident eternal life.com, you can, that’ll take you to this special new podcast series that we have created, that I’ve created, that our team is launching. That is 15 episodes dedicated to my personal life’s journey. My, this would be my personal life’s work, not my life’s work from a career standpoint. ’cause It is totally not a moneymaking endeavor at all. But my personal life’s work studying the evidence, what evidence is there of Jesus and miracles? And it’s seven questions that every intelligence skeptic should ask about Jesus of Nazareth. And we look at the historical, the archeological, we look at the, the corroborating evidence, the documents that support, and we ask the questions like, how do we know Jesus was a real person?
RV (18:58):
How do we know he wasn’t just a good teacher in something more? What evidence is there that he was a deity of some type? What evidence is there that he ever resurrected from the dead? Right? We, we tackle these challenging questions about Jesus, who was someone who boldly made claims about being a deity. So that’s rare in and of itself right now, he’s not the only person to do that. Lots of people have David Koresh and lots of crazy people we talk about. We talk about that in. But the difference is he followed through on them. The difference is the things that he said would come true came true. The difference was many people who were not believers still witnessed unexplainable things happening. And even if they didn’t believe, they were not able to explain the things that happened and that were documented. So anyways, go to confident eternal life.com and check out, that’s a whole separate podcast series.
RV (19:49):
‘Cause It’s 15 episodes just related to the history and the, the academic logical scrutiny of the story of Jesus. But I’m telling you, if you read it and you dive into it, I mean, and you, and go listen to it, I mean, that’s me. That’s me taking basically 20 years of my personal life and consolidating it down into 15 short podcast episodes to share the best of the best of like what I found of the evidence. How could a rational, logical person believe in miracles and a savior and a messiah in heaven? How, how, how, how have I come to believe that? And that’s what we’ve taken the time to do with that special podcast episode. But I’m telling you, when you read it, you will learn about it. There is evidence, not just a little bit, an overwhelming preponderance of evidence, a, a gigantic mountain to where at the end of, at the end of my personal journey, at least for me, I started to realize it takes way more faith to not believe this stuff happened, happened than to believe that it did.
RV (20:48):
When you studied the evidence, the, the, the, the, the, the trail of provable and fa facts that we have a chance to corroborate, be given where we’re at in the timeline of human history and the tools that are available to us today. So anyways, you can check that out. But I think you should read about miracles. You know, and if you’re not comfortable reading a Bible or whatever you, you know, if you, again, if you’re new to it, I would say read the New Testament. Read about Jesus, right?
RV (21:36):
And what those people wrote and said about what happened. But if you can’t, you know, if, if you’re not into the Bible or Christianity, I would say you still read about miracles because it helped read about read. And, and, and if it’s, and maybe it’s not even the supernatural, right? You go, well, I have some other faith or whatever. Okay, fine. Still though, read about miracles, read about worldly things that came true, read about other people who accomplished the impossible. Read, read Louis Zpr, Reini, I think Zini is the, the unbroken story. I forget how to say his last name, but incredible, right? Like, read that story unbroken, like read that book, read the books of and, and watch the movies of people doing impossible things. Why? Because when you learn about other people who have accomplished the impossible, it helps you realize that you could do it too.
RV (22:28):
That’s part of the power is when you go, it feels impossible to me. But wait a minute, that person did it and that person did it, and that person did it, and that person did it, and that person did it. And that’s just in a worldly way. I’m not even talking about the divine supernatural stuff. I’m talking about the stories of survival or overcoming the odds or even even sports stories or people overcoming physical disabilities you know, read about the Underground Railroad. Like these impossible things that humans have pulled off, right? Launching spaceships to the moon. I mean, there’s so many different examples of people achieving the impossible. The only way that you could sit around and say it’s not possible is, is because you’re oblivious and you’re ignorant to the fact that impossible things happen all the time. Not just supernatural ones, but worldly ones.
RV (23:22):
You just haven’t been exposed. It’s not that it’s impossible, it’s that it’s unfamiliar. It’s not that it’s impossible, it’s unfamiliar to you. It’s unfamiliar ’cause it’s never happened to you, it’s never happened to your family, it’s never happened to your homies that you hang out with. But it doesn’t mean that people aren’t doing impossible things all the time. Be around people who are doing impossible things. And you too will see that the impossible, quite literally is very possible for them. And once you see it happen to enough of the people around you, you believe it for you. Right? This last week we just had our 21 Brand Builders Group client become a New York Times Wall Street Journal, or u Ss a today bestselling author 21 times. And they’re not game the list, they’re not cheating stuff, they’re not buying their own books. They’re doing the hard ethical work of selling books and building an audience and serving people, right?
RV (24:11):
And they’re using every mechanism that we have available to show them how to get their message out to the world. It’s not fake bots and fake people buying books and some of those things. It’s legitimate. It’s doing the work, but they’re achieving the impossible things that they never thought possible. If you hang around brand builders group long enough and you go, you see the stories of 21 other people who’ve done it, you start to realize, Hey, maybe that could be possible. Maybe there is a system here, like maybe there, maybe there is a way that this comes true. And, and you may not care to become a bestselling author, but I’m saying hang around the people who are achieving the impossible. And if you can’t hang around the people who are doing the impossible, read about miracles, read about ’em, the more you’re exposed to ’em, the more you will realize. It happens all the time.
RV (25:02):
You are a miracle. Your life is a miracle. The fact that we exist on this planet, in this solar system, in this extremely delicate scientific balance that I is, is the, the odds defy all logic and rational thinking that we would have life on this earth and that we would exist, and that we of, you know, all the sperm that came out like in the world like that, that, that, that we were the people, we are the people who are here now living in this place, in this world. I mean, the miracle of birth, the miracle of nature, the miracle of the solar system like you are a miracle. We are living in a world of miracles. There, there are, there are things that are happening all around us. And even if you don’t believe in the supernatural, I mean, there is all sorts of miracles that happen on a daily basis. So you, you can be a miracle. You can set yourself up, you can open your life up to the possibility of receiving a miracle and being one of these people. But you have to be willing to ask for a miracle. You have to be willing to walk towards a miracle, and you have to read about or surround yourself with people who are achieving and benefiting from miracles. I hope we get to continue to be a place of inspiration for you in that keep coming back. We’ll catch you next time on the Influential Personal Brand podcast.
Ep 426: Having a Miracle Mentality with Tim Storey
RV (00:02):
Well, you’re about to meet someone that I truly admire. His name is Tim Story. I admire him for several reasons. Uh, first of all, he’s the bestselling author of several books, most recently, the Miracle Mentality that was published by Harper Collins. Um, but Tim is super influential behind the scenes with lots of the world’s, uh, famous people, high profile people. Um, now he’s been featured as a public guest on shows, you know, like Oprah Winfrey and interviewed by Steve Harvey in the Today Show in Good Morning America. He’s been featured in People Magazine. He’s also worked behind the scenes with people in their private lives. This is people like Charlie Sheen and Kanye West, and, uh, Charlton Hesston and Robert Downey, Jr. Jr. Like, um, this man is known for his heart and for his love and for his passion and his message. Um, and he also has become one of the biggest personal brands in the world.
RV (00:58):
He’s got millions of followers online. Uh, he speaks at several of the biggest events. He works with lots of the biggest companies in the world, and he’s an amazing humanitarian. He does all this humanitarian work, donates his books to refugees, um, and is just a really wonderful guy. And we’re actually just meeting for the first time. But he also is very, uh, you know, like me, he takes his faith as a very serious part of his life, uh, as a believer in God, thus the miracle mentality, which is why we had to have him here today. Tim story, welcome to the Influential Personal Brand podcast.
TS (01:35):
What a privilege, and thank you for that nice introduction,
RV (01:39):
TS (02:10):
As you know, a miracle is something extraordinary uncommon, not normal and not natural. And then the mentality, as you know, as well, is a state of mind. It’s a perspective, and it’s been set for probably a hundred years that your mindset is yours to set your mindset’s, yours to set. So growing up in Compton, California, we had seven people in a two bedroom apartment. Cramped. Crowded, okay. But one of the things that my mother had was a miracle mentality. Hmm. She always used to tell us things like this, like, we may be lower income, but we’re not lower class.
RV (02:51):
Amen. And
TS (02:52):
This is only temporary and we’re on our way somewhere. So she really created hope and expectation, even though we were in a cramped and crowded environment. So, as I got older and I got into church, into faith, I started hearing all these great stories about David and Goliath and Abraham having a, a baby with his wife, Sarah. And they were both very, very old. And it just began to build my faith and build my mentality into this miracle mentality. And I took it into deep, deep research and decided to write a book about it, and it’s working.
RV (03:31):
Mm-hmm.
TS (04:13):
Okay. So I think it’s, I think it’s two things, is that I believe that number one, the miracle mentality is innate. I believe that we’re we’re made in the image and likeness of God. And so inside of us, we believe in the miracle mentality. And I, and I know this for a fact ’cause I’ve been to 78 countries of the world.
RV (04:34):
Wow.
TS (04:35):
When I go to third world countries and I talk to little kids in Soweto, South Africa, and I say, what do you wanna be when you get older? And they’re five or six, they’ll say things like LeBron James or a little girl will say Beyonce. Mm-hmm. They never talk about they want to be something that’s less. They talk about miracle mentality, little girls. They may wanna have a party that includes unicorns, little boys. They wanna play with Superman, spider-Man, Ironman. They never wanna play with something ordinary. So I think number one, it’s innate. Secondly, it’s learned. I think the main reason that people lose the miracle mentality, Rory, is because of disappointment. Mm-hmm. They got disappointed. So they believed for something, they expected something, and it did not happen the way they thought it would. And the disappointment started to break down the miracle mentality.
RV (05:34):
So that’s a good question. Right. So how do you handle that? Right? I mean, I think that’s what, I think that’s what, when people hear about prayer, you know, they struggle with it. And, and you know, of course, like scripture and ancient scripture says like, you know, if you, you believe in me, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given to you. But then you pray for, you know, like I think of my wife aj. So my wife, who’s also my business partner, and she’s the c e o of brand builders group. You know, her mom got cancer when she was 15, and her mom prayed fervently, fervently for healing, had prayer chains, and yet her mom died. Right. Um, she, she lived longer than they expected, quite a lot longer, uh, like a year longer. Um, but it was, you know, that’s, that can be devastating to people’s faith. So how do you reconcile that? Right? How do you reconcile believing for the miracle, having the miracle mentality, but when the miracle doesn’t show up, this gap between those is disappointment.
TS (06:39):
Yes.
RV (06:40):
What’s the response there?
TS (06:41):
That’s a great question and something that a lot of people are that are watching right now, you feel, ’cause we’ve all been through different disappointments with belief, and then it didn’t happen. So I think that life is not black and white, that it’s most times gray. It’s like in the middle, like, why do bad things happen to good people? Or why do some people say they got healed to cancer and then someone else did not? So it’s, it, it’s not, it’s not black, it’s not white. It’s many times gray. But here’s what I believe. I think that even though the miracle did not happen the way we wanted it to, I think in the, in the form of healing, healing is a process. Some people are healed instantly, some are healed gradually. And in the Christian faith, we believe some people don’t get healed till they go to heaven, where there’s no more sickness, more tears, no more sorrow.
TS (07:42):
So, you know, we want the miracle on earth, but the, the miracle of everlasting life is still a miracle. But I, believe me, I want the miracle on earth. Hmm. So I would say to somebody as a spiritual leader and advisor, that that is frustrating, that is disappointing. But we still have to believe in miracles and believe that God is still able. And in the cases where it does not happen the way we want it to, we kind of just put that in a file that we say, at this point in my life, I don’t understand, but I still believe it’s almost like following your parents. There’s times that they gave you, um, guidelines or guidance or direction, and you didn’t understand it, but maybe at times you still followed, even though you didn’t completely understand. But I, I go through this thing where I say, you have to learn to believe in miracles and expect miracles and expectation is a very difficult thing for people. Again, because of the disappointment.
RV (08:59):
Yeah. So when you, when you say expectation Yes. What, what, what do you mean by that? And, and I do think the parallel, I, it helps me a lot. I, I feel like I’ve learned more about my faith walk than ever before by having children, because I understand like, sometimes they, they ask me for candy, sometimes I give it to ’em, sometimes I don’t. Sometimes it’s the right thing, and sometimes it would be damaging to them even though they don’t realize it. Right. Sometimes they want to tip back in their chair and they think that’s fun. But I I, I say, Hey, no, we’re not gonna do that because I’ve got, I’ve got a perspective that they don’t have. I’ve got a foresight that, that they don’t have. Yeah. And, and then, but then, you know, how do you continue to have that expectation where you ask, and maybe you’re let down and maybe that happens again and again. Or like you pursue your whole life pursuing a dream, and then you don’t get it. Right. You don’t get to the, you don’t get drafted in the M B A, you don’t get the call from the record label. How do we keep expecting then?
TS (09:59):
So I think the expectation has to be based on something. Okay. Okay. And so, like for instance, I was at a friend’s house and, um, I had forgotten something and he said, let’s just order it on Amazon Prime, then it will come the next day,
TS (11:11):
And so, uh, a fantasy is something that does not have substance to it. And so sometimes people are chasing fantasies and they think that’s faith. But I think that it has to be based on something, whether it’s a promise that God gave you or a scripture that God gave you, or a knowing as, or as o Oprah Winfrey says, uh, aha moment where you have a download. And I think you’ve had that in your life where sometimes all you had was like a word from God, and you moved on that word from God and it worked. And so you, you based it on something you felt like you heard from God and you stepped out in faith.
RV (11:59):
How do you know, how do you hear the difference between God’s prompting Christ, what Christians would call probably the whole, the Holy Spirit? How do you know the difference between that and like a crazy idea or a fantasy or just you, you know, like how do you discern, which it’s like the voices inside my head, right? How do I discern which voice is the voice I should be listening to? Which voice is which voice is the one that guides me towards the miracle?
TS (12:33):
Yeah. Phenomenal question. So in the eighties, I wrote a book called Good Idea versus the God idea. Hmm. Good. Or is it God
RV (12:46):
Yeah.
TS (12:47):
And Good can be good, but God could be better. So there’s a scripture that says, trust in the Lord with all your heart. Do not lean on your own understanding, but in all your ways, acknowledge him and he shall direct your path. Okay, how so? I teach a very simple thing. We need to stop, we need to look and we need to listen. And then the Bible says, my sheep, they know my voice. Hmm. Now, when your wife calls you, even if she had a cold, you could recognize her voice. Is that correct?
RV (13:26):
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
TS (13:27):
If she coughed in the middle of the sentence, you’d go, that’s her
RV (13:32):
Yeah. Uhhuh
TS (13:33):
So the more you have a connection with somebody you can understand and know their voice with more clarity. Hmm. And the way I teach people is we have to stop, meaning we become human doings rather than human beings. We need to look to God and have a lion alignment with him. And then we need to listen. And that listen is that quiet, whether it’s meditation, whether it’s prayer, driving in your car, in the shower, in the ice bucket, uh, in the mornings, however you do things. But really that quiet time. Think about this in your own personal life. I bet there’s some times where you’ve got some really cool downloads by just stopping looking and then listening. Mm-hmm.
RV (14:26):
TS (15:08):
Add, I like to add something to that because I think that one thing I think that you’ll enjoy about my type of teaching is that, uh, I don’t think everything is like, just an absolute. And I feel that stop, look and listen, that’s part of it. But also in the Bible it says there’s wisdom in the multitude of counselors. Mm-hmm.
RV (16:02):
TS (16:09):
I think that, uh, Oprah Winfrey, who’s become a phenomenal friend, like we’re real friends, we were sitting in her backyard one time and she said, at what point did you know you were Tim Story? And I said, at 10. And she got very emotional. She said, about the same age for me. And she said, what did that look like? Because you have to understand, we were lower income. My mother worked at Windshield’s Donut Shop, my father died when I was 10, but he was just a guy who went to 10th grade and worked at Bethlehem Steel. And someday I would go to 70 countries, speak to 85,000 people by the time I was 28 and get a doctorate in World Religion, a master’s in therapy. I mean, who would’ve thought that when I was this lower income kid at 10? But man, I just knew, I knew that. I knew that I knew. And I think that most of you guys that are watching right now, if we asked you at what age did you know you were supposed to do something fantastic or that was supernatural, it was supposed to happen, you could probably give me an age. So at 10 years of age, there was a knowing I didn’t know how I was gonna get there, and I didn’t know exactly what it was, but I knew I was gonna have big impact. I really did.
RV (17:36):
Mm-hmm.
TS (18:28):
Yes. So I think Dennis Waitley said it close to the way I say it in the eighties. So I always like to cite people, but I talk about how we learn through education, conversation, and observation. Hmm. And one of the things I do with inner city kids is I take ’em to places that they’ve never been before. So if they live, like in a inner city in la, I might drive them to Beverly Hills and let them see Rodeo Drive, because that’s an observation of something bigger than themselves. Hmm. Or will take groups of kids to Disneyland because they’ve never seen Tomorrow land, frontier land. They’ve never seen anything like this. Right. And so I think that if you don’t know what you’re supposed to do through education of even watching documentaries through conversations like the one we’re having right now together, and through observation, it will stir up that thing that’s already been there. ’cause I believe it’s already doggone inside you. Mm-hmm.
RV (19:57):
Mm-hmm.
RV (20:42):
And then when we sold our company in 2018, we moved to that exact area. And it’s like, the awareness of it is a lot. And it’s, it’s, it’s almost like seeing it, you know, seeing somebody else do it, it makes it so much more real, so much more possible. Like the, the belief barriers that we set in our own minds, the, the limits that we set are exploded by by things you can go witness. I mean, I’ve never really thought about the power of just go and be in the environment, but like, I have that a lot nowadays. Like, you know, like Ed Millet, we were talking about him before seeing the response that his audience had during his book launch. Like blew my mind. Right. I had just never seen anything. And to be on the inside of like, what that looked like, it just raised my belief level by simply being an observer and just being around what was going on.
TS (21:34):
100%. And, um, there’s so much power in the site and as you know, biblically it says seeing those things that are not yet as though they are already. And so when you begin to project and you begin to see by faith, uh, but again, I think you saw your life before it started to manifest and, um, that we get these glimpses of, of what we should be doing. And part of it, yours was seeing a speaker, but then other things, seeing a house, seeing a neighborhood. And, uh, I’ve been fortunate enough to be, uh, mentored by a man named Quincy Jones for the last 36 years. And to be around Quincy Jones is pretty cool because he worked with anywhere from Frank Sinatra to Michael Jackson. And, uh, they just celebrated his 90th birthday the other day, the Hollywood Bowl. But, you know, in seeing what this man has done from coming from where he came from, has helped me to see that if he could do it, I could do it. If he could do it, I could do it. If he could do it, I could do it. So that’s very, very helpful.
RV (22:54):
Mm-hmm.
TS (23:34):
I think, I think I wanna say that, um, if someone does not have a faith background, I could see your point. ’cause I think that a lot of the representatives, um, of faith have not always brought like, clear messages by who they are, how they talk, how they do business. So I don’t blame anybody, but I would say again, that the miracle mentality is innate. ’cause even if you don’t have faith, I still believe you’re made in the image of God. And there’s something inside you that says different, better, more magical. And that’s my, my famous story about Walt Disney. He walks into an amusement park in the 1930s and he said, someday I’m gonna build my own amusement park, but mine’s gonna be different, better, and more magical. I’m trying to tell you, every one of you that are watching right now, at one point in your life, you thought different, better, and more magical. Hmm. Whether that’s because of faith, religion, or just what’s in you innately. But I would, I would say to you, step out in who you’re supposed to be different, better, and more magical. And then if possible, open yourself up to the supernatural realm because it’s pretty powerful.
RV (24:52):
Yeah. I think that’s, I think that’s really, really beautiful. And it, when you, when you, if you grasp hold and you do kind of take ancient scripture that says that you’re created in God’s image, it certainly is a lot of, there’s a lot of power there. Uh, you know, at your access. You know, if, if there’s,
TS (25:09):
There’s no doubt about it. And the more, the more I like to study, like, um, all these documentaries, like I was watching one on David Bowie. I mean, I, I watched ones that my inner city friends were like, would be like, why did you watch that one
RV (25:22):
TS (25:23):
Interested in human beings? And this dude had like a miracle mentality and he wasn’t into like religion or like Jesus Christ, but he just knew he was David Bowie. But I, I personally believe, again, ’cause he is made in the image of God and that side of him was thinking different, better, more magical. I mean, little kids, man, they just, they wanna rise.
RV (25:53):
So another another thing that I think is pretty amazing about you. There’s, there’s so, so much in, in your, your life story, but, uh, you’ve done stuff with the Dalai Lama and you, you get into a lot of conversations and a lot of circles where it’s like normally you wouldn’t like maybe have a pastor there having that conversation. Um, how have you balanced, you know, like when it comes to like building your personal brand and your public profile and making money from speaking and writing books and those things, how do you balance this strong conviction of your, your strong personal conviction of faith and a source of truth with a respect of other people who maybe don’t believe what you believe and how are you bold, but you know, kind of compassionate and like, you know, not hiding or, you know, not apologizing for what you believe, but you, you know, like, talk to me about that balance.
TS (26:56):
Yeah, I think that in the Bible that says that you are like an epistle read by men. Like, so if you’re walking around and you’re a Christian, that where you go, it’s like people are reading you. Another way of saying it is that you can walk around like a billboard. So a lot of my strength is not in what I say, but the spirit in which I walk in. So your buddy, my buddy Lewis house. Yeah.
RV (27:30):
Uh,
TS (27:30):
He did a documentary and Thank you Lewis for putting me in that documentary so much. And Jay Shetty was there and some other people, and one of the big influencers was there. And he shook my hand and we know each other. And he, he told his friend, he goes, every time I get around Tim’s story, I feel like this weird supernatural piece come on me.
RV (28:24):
TS (28:27):
But I really believe that, number one, I’m a chill dude anyway, but he will keep you in perfect peace of your mind is state on him, meaning God. And so my strength, whether I’m around the Dalai Lama or P Diddy or Jay-Z or whoever is, I’m not always talking Bible stuff. I’m just owning the gift and the life that God gave me. Hmm. And I’ll tell you man, I work with as you know, so many celebrities that are so far from the things of God and then get so close to the things of God just by somebody breaking it down and making it realistic. Mm-hmm.
RV (29:11):
TS (29:28):
And thanks, I think old school, go to tim story.com. I like what my boy Derek did on our website, so tim story.com and then on Instagram. I’m Tim, story official.
RV (29:41):
Thank you. Yeah. That’s so great. Well, um, and then if somebody is listening right now Yeah. Who is struggling with an addiction mm-hmm.
TS (29:56):
RV (29:57):
Or is in that dark place going, going, struggling with, you know, a marital affair got laid off from their job. You know, if, if they’re not anywhere near this space and this supernatural peace that you’re talking about, but they’re instead overwhelmed with anxiety and depression and fear and worry, um, what, what would you, what would you leave that person with?
TS (30:27):
Yeah, I, I would say number one, don’t put yourself down. So, um, a lot of clients I work with are famously on T M Z and people will say, man, you, I know you work with that guy or that lady, she’s still not fixed. Uh, I don’t think we ever all get cheered. I think we get better. So don’t put yourself down to for where you’re at, but what needs to happen is somehow you need to become awake. These are the steps of a comeback. You have to become awake somehow. The second thing you have to take inventory, like, where is my life really? Like what is this addiction doing? Or what is this affair doing in my life? Or getting caught in the fair or not getting caught? Uh, so you have to become awake, you have to take inventory number three, you have to partner with the right people. Hmm. So that’s what you’re doing today on this podcast. You’re partnering with people who actually care and we’re giving some clear answers. So you partner with the right people, but then you need the right principles in your life. And so we’re talking a lot about principles and so become awake, take inventory, partner with Right people, get the right principles and it’ll get you right back on the right path.
RV (31:41):
Yeah, man, I love it. Well, thanks for the inspiration and the reminder of the supernatural and the divine that lives in all of us. And, um, just the confidence that the miracle mentality is something that is available to all of us at any moment and that that can be something that transforms our life. So we’ll be praying for you, my friend, and cheering you on, and, uh, we wish you the best.
TS (32:05):
What a privilege. Thank you.
Ep 425: How To Attract Your Top Customers | Tom Schwab Episode Recap
AJV (00:02):
So on a recent podcast interview with Tom Schwab, which is a old friend recently got in, reintroduced to an old friend. This phenomenal conversation developed around the concept of borrowed audiences. And it’s something that we talk a lot about at Brand Builders Group, but this was in a, a unique context, and I thought this example was really powerful enough so that I’m making a video about it right now. And the concept is around leveraging other people’s platforms versus leveraging other people’s money. And in the world of entrepreneurship where I have a, a ton of friends who own small businesses, some who own really big businesses but there’s a constant conversation of, you know, the idea of investment money and, you know, do we need whether it’s from you know, an equity company or you’re just trying to get a loan or you’re trying to bring in a, a partner or you’re trying to sell part of your business ’cause you need more funds.
AJV (01:04):
But there’s a lot of conversations in my entrepreneur community around other people’s money. There’s not enough conversation around other people’s platforms. And I love this example that we talked about in the podcast episode on the influential personal brand with Tom Schwab about the importance of not taking other people’s money, but instead leveraging other people’s platforms. And I shouldn’t say, not taking other people’s money, that’s up to you. But there’s another way that you can leverage other people in the business world to help you grow your business. And it’s not just getting in debt or giving up a piece of your business but it’s it’s exposure. And I love this example about Sarah Blakely and how when she was starting Spanx, there was an opportunity for her to go on the Oprah Winfrey Show. And imagine this, imagine if Oprah Winfrey had said, Sarah, I love what your business is all about.
AJV (02:02):
I love what you’re doing. Here’s a million dollars. I’ll give you a million dollars. I’ll take a piece of your business. Or you pay me x amount of interest or even interest free. But here it is. That’s option one. Option two would’ve been, Hey Sarah, I’d love to have you on my show. There’s no money involved here, but I’m going to introduce you to my audience of millions all around the world. Which one would you take? Would you take the million dollars or would you take the exposure? Now knowing Oprah Winfrey and knowing what results from that hindsight 2020 is pretty powerful. But what about in the moment? What if you didn’t know? And what if you were really desperate for money? Would you have taken the money or the platform? And I think that’s a really important question because I hear something else a lot in my community, which is, well, how much are you gonna charge for that?
AJV (02:57):
Or How much are you gonna pay me for that? And there’s a, a part of this where it’s like, would you rather take the money or would you rather take the exposure? Would you rather get the money or the platform? And I think there’s an opportunity for a lot of us as entrepreneurs and small businesses to reconsider the power of the platform versus the dollar. ’cause The dollar has a a short term impact, but access to these platforms is the beginning of something that can last for years and years. And it’s a small amount of money compared to a potentially huge amount of money if you take a leap of faith on yourself and what you’re doing. And the power of the platform today is like never before. And so there’s an, there’s an amazing opportunity for you to hone in as a personal brand, a business owner and entrepreneur of leveraging platform access to audience instead of money that might be more beneficial for you.
AJV (03:57):
And if you’re working yourself through the lens of, well, what should I charge for that? And how much should I charge for this? And I will only do this for that, it’s like, just pause for a second and go, just take money off the table for a minute and just go, let’s not think about dollars and cents at all. Let’s think about audiences and relationships. What would it mean for you to have a trusted relationship with someone who is willing to promote you, advocate for you, introduce you to their audience of millions? It’s worth so much more than a dollar dollar, but it comes from a trusted relationship that you have been building offline for a pretty long time in many cases. But then that introduction is worth millions. It’s worth tens of millions over the course of time versus this very small fin finite amount of money in the short term.
AJV (04:53):
And so in this conversation, it was this idea of how do you attract your top customers when maybe you, you don’t have the money to go pay for paid traffic or do some of these big things, but you provide an amazing service with immense value, and you have a trusted reputation with people who have audiences and that matters. That means something. So here’s a couple of things that I thought were really worth a takeaway from this podcast interview which is, number one is that today when it comes to online business and digital, digital marketing and AI and automation and all things truly we are becoming more efficient all the time every day at things that are not effective. We’re trying to work harder and harder and harder at repurposing content and automating things that aren’t even effective. We’re just trying to figure out how do we do more and less time without even paying attention to does that really work, right?
AJV (05:56):
Does that really work? And instead, we need to go, I’m not trying to get millions of clients or even thousands of clients, I’m trying to figure out what clients do I want to attract and where are they, even if I’m only trying to get 10 clients. It’s like, what if you were able to get introduced to 10 of your perfect ideal clients versus a hundred of your temporary clients that aren’t really a great fit, but they may be willing to spend money on what you offer right now? What do those two different strategies look like? And it comes down from, I don’t care to be seen everywhere, but I want to be where my clients are. And that’s being a hyper disciplined person in a world where there’s so much temptation to do all the things all the time and try to be everywhere for everyone instead of going, no, that’s not where my clients are, right?
AJV (06:50):
It’s like, I need to leverage the platforms to reach my unique and specific audience. So I don’t need to be everywhere. I just need to be where my clients are. And if you don’t know where your clients are, then you just ask them in real conversations, go through you, your list of clients and pick out who are your five to 10 top clients, your biggest clients, your most long-term clients, your favorite clients, the ones who spend the most with you, love you the most, promote you the most, introduce you to people the most. Those have the biggest audience, the biggest platform, whatever that criteria is, pick just a few of them and have real in-depth conversations about where are they spending their time? Where do they go to learn? What are they listening to? Where are they at online? What conferences do they go to?
AJV (07:40):
What you know, masterminds, are they a part of? What forums what whatever, right? What are they reading? Like truly get into the mental psyche of your top 10 clients. It is better to have answers from a few clients that really represent your ideal perfect avatar that have hundreds of responses from the average customer. So it’s like, take the time to get real answers to build real relationships and get real nuanced answers that allow you to go deep and to use tools like Spark Touro to go, okay, I spent a few conversations with these people and now I know exactly where to dial it in. And using Spark Touro will help you know where to spend time on online, what podcasts you wanna be on what websites that you’d wanna be featured in, what blogs what different social content, what influencers.
AJV (08:37):
It helps so much for you just to get clear on who are those top customers, where do they spend their time, where are they learning, what do they want? And it doesn’t take a ton of that for you to have some really clear answers. But that takes time because what you’re trying to do by targeting this in and by looking at the concept of platform and audience is what you’re trying to do is you’re trying to narrow in the time spent online and offline. Because if you’re doing everything, you’re simultaneously doing nothing. It’s like if you’re trying to go, Hey, I’m gonna be on Instagram and I’m gonna be on TikTok and I’m gonna speak at these conferences and I’m gonna do the LinkedIn strategy, oh, and I’m gonna launch a podcast. It’s like, okay, okay, at some point what is actually working right?
AJV (09:22):
And that in itself takes a lot of filtering and data reporting to go, well, this is where it’s all coming from. Instead of just going, let’s do all that market research on the front end to go exactly who are these people? Where are they spending time? Who has those audiences? And how do I leverage the audience that already exists to help me build my platform? It’s the Oprah Winfrey example. He like, would you take a million dollars or would you take exposure to millions of people? Everyone’s gonna make their own choice here, but I would advocate to go look at the, the trajectory of Sarah Blakely and Spanx, which in much part was launched on that Oprah Winfrey show. Not solely, not by itself, but that was a catalyst, right? And I can speak for Brand Builders group our own company. It’s like there was a catalyst event that went from are we gonna do this?
AJV (10:14):
Are we gonna make it to? Like the business is, it’s working and it’s producing. And it’s when we were on Lewis House, the School of Greatness podcast in July of 2018, 2018, and that was a catalyst event that went from, okay, we’re trying to do this thing to, oh no, we’re doing this thing that one podcast generated more than a thousand leads for us because we had a trusted relationship with Lewis offline, and he had a trusted relationship with a huge audience online. But it takes both, right? We did not have the audience at the time. We launched Brain Builders Group with no podcast, with no email list, no social media, and no website. And we were able to use the trusted reputation of Lewis introducing us to his audience, that borrowed platform to grow our business, to attract our ideal customers. We knew who our customer were who our customer was, and we knew where they were.
AJV (11:19):
And a lot of them were in that Lewis house audience. And so it’s a, it’s a huge decision for you to go, you know, I’m gonna spend the time to know who my customer is and where they are, and it’s to become efficient at the things that are working, not just being efficient for efficiency’s sake. So it’s a difference between are you trying to have high volume with lots of transactions, or are you trying to build real relationships and target your ideal customer? Because if you’re trying to attract your top customers not not the short term customers, but the ones that are your true customer who are going like, you know, you can serve them in the deepest, most meaningful way, there is a way to do it that allows you to attract those customers in the most efficient and effective manner, which is you have to know who they are, you have to know where they spend their time, and then you have to have a way to introduce yourself to those people. And a great way to do it is this concept of borrowed audiences, right? It’s using other people’s platforms to help you get introduced to the people that have never heard of you, who you have not met yet. And until you build your own platform and your own audience, your customers exist somewhere. They don’t have to be in your email list. They don’t have to be on your social media profiles. They don’t have to be subscribed to your podcast. You don’t have to have that yet. You just have to know where they are.
AJV (12:42):
What email list Are they a part of? What podcasts do they subscribe to? What events do they attend? What books do they read? That is what you need to spend time doing to be the most efficient person in the world at attracting your top customers. So what do you do from here? You ask yourself, who, who is my top customer? Start with looking at your current clients. Who do you wanna replicate? Who do you wanna duplicate? So first thing, who, second thing, where, where are they? And if you don’t know, get on the phone, dial ’em up and ask ’em. But who are they and where are they? That’s how you start to attract top customers.
Ep 424: How Digital Marketing Could be Destroying Your Business with Tom Schwab
AJV (00:02):
Hey, everybody. Welcome to another episode on the Influential Personal Brand. And y’all are in for a treat today. In fact, I am in for a treat today because I am getting to connect with an old friend Tom Schwab, and he just reminded me today that, Hey, do you remember that one time we were on a cruise together? And I was like, oh my gosh. I had so completely forgotten eight years ago that that happened. So this was also a treat for me today. But before I introduce Tom, I want to tell you why you wanna stick around for today’s episode. So ask yourself this question. Have you ever thought that digital marketing might actually be hurting your business? If you have ever asked that thought that, or wondered how could digital marketing help me? Or is it helping me at all? This is an episode for you.
AJV (00:56):
I would also encourage you to stick away. Stick around if you have ever ventured into the idea of, I think one day I’d like a podcast. You know, everyone has a podcast. Do I need one? And I know from talking to so many of you I hear one of three things. I hear one, oh man, I’d love to start a podcast one day. That’s number one. Number two is, oh, there’s too many podcasts out there that market’s already saturated. There’s no room for another one. I hear that a lot. And number three is, oh, I have a podcast. Now, how do I get people to listen to it?
AJV (01:41):
This is an episode that you want to listen to. So, well, let’s get into it. Let me introduce you to Tom Schwab. There’s a couple of things I wanna just kind of highlight. But one thing that I love is he, he is coming with a refreshing new take, a new view on digital marketing and how to use it or not. He’s got a new book that has just come out. It’s one Conversation Away. And it’s based on a data and experience and expertise of working with over six or 700 leading brands. He’s also the chief evangelist officer, love that title at Interview Valet. And so if you are interested in the podcasting world, you probably wanna learn about interview valet and what they do and how that works. And in general, it, this is also just super fun because you always wanna reconnect with people that you actually know and that know you, and that you have shared friends and shared clients, and you know that what they’re gonna talk about brings value. And that’s what we get to do today. So, Tom, welcome to the show. Aj.
TS (02:46):
I am thrilled to be here.
AJV (02:48):
Oh my gosh, I am so excited. And I’m honestly, I’m, I’m so excited because of this first topic that we’re gonna start with. And we had just a quick chat about this before I hit record. And I, this is pretty compelling and it’s pretty provocative, which is how digital marketing is destroying your business. That’s a pretty provocative statement in a world where everyone else is selling you of, like, digital marketing is the way to go. And if you’re not online, you’re dead. So to hear you say that is like, we’re gonna start right there. We’re, we’re gonna bring that to the front. I wanna know, is it, is it, is it destroying your business? What do you think? I,
TS (03:26):
I think for a lot of business, it’s hurting the brand, not helping the brand. Hmm. And you say all the people that are telling you more and more, more louder, louder, louder. Right? You need to break through the noise. Did you ever notice that all the people that are telling you to break through the noise are the ones that are selling the megaphones and getting us all to yell louder, louder and louder? We’re yelling, but we’re not being heard. Right? We’re getting more efficient at things that are getting less and less effective. Oh, that’s good. And, and, and with that, it’s like, we know in our hearts this isn’t working, and this rat race isn’t going in the right place. And I I learned so much from our clients. And I can remember one client came to me and I’m like, why do you wanna do podcast interviews?
TS (04:15):
And I loved his answer. A ha he said, ’cause I think most of social media is the digital equivalent of advertising above urinals,
TS (05:11):
Well, if your customers aren’t there, why should you be? And I, I, I think back when my daughter was in middle school, Instagram was taking off, and she said, dad, you need to be there because everyone’s there. And I’m like, define everyone. And she’s like, me and all my friends,
AJV (05:48):
Oh my gosh, I love that I wrote this down. It’s like, most people today suffer from digital fomo. They do. It’s like, oh, it’s like, if, you know, know, you know, I have to, this is so embarrassing, I can’t believe I’m gonna admit this, but just two weeks ago we had dinner with some of our friends and one of our friends is also on our, our data team at Brand Builders Group. And we’re sitting down and he had said something about threads, and he was talking to Rory, and, and I’m just sitting there and I was like, not really paying attention. And finally they kept talking about it, and Rory was talking about his content on threads. And I was like, what is threads? And they both looked at me eyes wide, and they’re like, did you just say what is threads?
AJV (06:32):
And I was like, I don’t wanna seem dumb here, but what is it
TS (07:31):
Well, I think everybody is online in some area, right? And I would say trying to figure out where your clients are. Ask them, right? It’s a great, great marketing research. Find out other people that you are similar to, right? And you can figure out where they are, right? And if they’re finding success in those audiences, you can also, you know, sort of lookalike audiences. And I gotta admit that, oh, when we first started out nine years ago, it was more podcast guessing than podcast guessing, right?
AJV (08:48):
Yeah. We use Spark Touro ourselves, and I agree. It’s amazing. And it frighteningly ama it’s frighteningly amazing because it’s like, oh, that’s so creepy. You have all this data, but I love that it’s just ask your clients. Right? And it’s like, if you, but I think that’s where a lot of people make the mistake, is instead of asking who, they ask what, like, where, what should I be doing and where should I be versus going, no, who, who’s my audience? And where are they?
TS (09:16):
And I’ve always said, as business owners, as consultants, we always have opinions, right? But the people that have the answers are the ones that are voting with their dollars. Right. Our customers will tell us what they love and what they loathe if we ask them, and then listen to what they say.
AJV (09:36):
Yeah. So, I, I love that. What, what would you say is, is the best way for the person who’s listening going? I agree. I do wanna ask, I have no idea. What’s the best way to ask? How should I do it? Should I just send them an email? Should I put together a survey? Like what’s the best way to do it?
TS (09:52):
Once again, at, at times we get more and more efficient at things that are less and less effective, right? So you could send out a survey to all of these people, but I think you’re much better off having quality conversations with your super consumers. There’s a great book called Super Consumer by a a gentleman by the name of Eddie Yoon. And Eddie wrote it with the Harvard Business Reviews, and he said, or H B R he said that you just wanna market to your super consumer, not to everyone, right? So one of the examples that he uses in there is American Girl Dolls, right? They market to the people that buy every one, right. And all the accessories that go with it, because if you market to them, you’ll get that next ring with it. Mm-Hmm. And often those super consumers are gonna be the people that see your content and repost it. So I would look on that, and I, I’d rather have answers from 10 of my super consumers, my best clients, the people that I know I can bring a lot of value to than a MailChimp survey from a thousand people. Mm-Hmm.
AJV (11:05):
TS (11:50):
Well, I think there’s this idea in marketing today that you are just one funnel away, right?
TS (12:47):
No. If they wanna talk to you, they, you know, they wanna talk with the wizard and take action on there. And I think there’s a misunderstanding that what works for transactional sales at the low level can just be scaled up to relationship scale sales. You know, if that was the case, Boeing and Airbus would be, would be selling, you know, billion dollar contracts off of Facebook’s and funnels. Mm-Hmm.
AJV (13:25):
Yeah. So, you know, and I love, and I love that ’cause I agree, it’s like there’s a time and a place for all the things, but you gotta know what you’re selling and who you’re selling to, right? So in your world, would you say, you know, with some just industry statistics or trends or even your personal insights of like, when does a funnel make really good sense? Like, when, when is doing, you know, some, you know, pay-per click ads and some funnels really makes sense for who you’re going after, versus you gotta know these defining lines between when you’re gonna need to build relationships and work through referrals and, and have real conversations versus trying to just make more transactions. Mm-Hmm.
TS (14:06):
AJV (15:11):
Yeah. And I love that too, because I think that, you know, to that point, it’s like the person who maybe buys the course today with enough, you know, relational, you know, kind of credibility over time might be a prospect for the higher ticket sale. That knowing the difference between, what am I trying to do, where it’s just high volume, low margin, versus no, somebody’s gonna wanna talk to me, they’re gonna want references. And if I’m spending six figures on something, I’m probably gonna want more than just clicking on something online. Right? Well,
TS (15:41):
Well, you, you’re a good businesswoman and you figured out what he’s trying to do, right? He’s got the low margin and then the high margin, and in the middle is the coaching with that too. And so that’s his idea to go out there, do the course, right. And there’s gonna be a lot of people that say, I understand the course, but I want some help with this. Maybe they can’t afford the six figures, but they can afford the coaching. So I think it’s more of a continuum. Mm-Hmm.
AJV (16:23):
Yeah. And I love that we talk about that in our own business, in our own household all the time. It’s just like, it’s basic rules of economics, supply and demand, right? It’s the greater the demand, you can charge more, the lower the supply, you can charge more, right? And it’s like, if you’re on a two year waiting list, there’s a not a lot of supply and a whole bunch of demand, so you get to charge more versus that, you know, high volume, lower fee funnels. But again, time and a place for all the things, it’s just knowing when, what and for who. And I love that. No, on that note, there is something that’s kind of in this realm of how do you start bringing people in and a, attracting them and building a relationship with them that has nothing to do per se with, you know, you know, ads or funnels. But it, I would say that podcasting kind of falls into this, you know, digital kind of marketing realm in some respect. And I know obviously you’re a big proponent and fan of podcasting, so I wanna hear your take on like, how do people use podcasting to build their brand, build their business?
TS (17:38):
Well, I’ll talk about my personal one, right? And here, here’s being honest. Now I’m an engineer at heart, right? People joke that English is my second language and they’re not sure what my first one is, is. So I’ve written a lot of blogs in my life, but every one of ’em was a homework assignment. Hmm. Right? So for me, it’s very easy to talk, right? We can have this conversation here, and there’s a lot of problems in the world today, but there’s no better time to be alive, right? Because we can take this discussion that we had, we can get the transcript, we can clean that up and turn it into blogs, into articles to repurpose it. So really look at what’s the easiest way for you to make the content, and then what ways can you repurpose it so that you can give it to your ideal customers in the way that they wanna consume it, right?
TS (18:30):
Because not everybody consumes the, the same way, right? 51% of the US population listens to podcasts, right? If your audience is hearing impaired, they’re not gonna listen to your podcast. But it doesn’t mean that you couldn’t write a blog or do captions or something like that in order to repurpose that. And the great part is, from a digital marketing standpoint, it doesn’t take any more of my time, right? It used to be you’d have to spend a lot of money to do that, you know, relatively. Now with ai, you can chop that up, you can make it so much easier to get a lot of content through there. So I, I don’t look at it as an either or as an engineer. I, I look at how do you get the most with putting the least amount in? And so if I’m gonna invest the time to do a 45 minute interview, how much content can I get out of that? Mm-Hmm.
AJV (19:25):
Yeah. So what would you tell somebody that’s got a podcast and you’re, you know, they’re going, oh, whoa, whoa, whoa, I have not been utilizing all of the assets of these interviews. Hold on. What would you say to go back and do?
TS (19:40):
I would start with your best podcast, right? Whatever your, your top four, top five are, and we used to go out, out and get a journalism intern, right? And say, Hey, here’s our interviews. Could you write some blogs out of here? Could you make some clips out of these? Right? That’s what they’re trained to do. Now with ai, you can also do other ones where ask chat g p t to pull out the best quotes from there. There’s different tools online, and I’m not gonna mention any, because by the time this goes out, they’re gonna be saying, oh, those got superseded by this. But just go out there and look, and you can see the ones that click clip the best portions from that. So don’t feel like you’ve always gotta do more, more and more, right? Do more with what you have.
TS (20:26):
Often we’ll have clients that come to us and I, I can think of one that wanted to do a hundred podcast interviews in the month, and I was like, why? She’s like, oh, that’ll be massive exposure. I’m like, it seems like a massive amount of work to me.
AJV (21:02):
Yeah. And I think that kind of comes back to that thing that we talked about earlier with, is digital marketing destroying your business as people think, oh, more, more, more is what we need to do. I need to post 15 times a day. I need to be on it all the time. And no, not necessarily. So when it comes to podcasting, do you have a recommendation on like, this is a good, you know, flow of how often you should be releasing a podcast if you have a podcast?
TS (21:31):
Well, I’ve got an opinion, but I’ve also got data behind that too. Okay, let’s
AJV (21:35):
Do, I’ll hear it.
TS (21:36):
So for a podcast itself, right? You don’t wanna do it less than two times a month, right? Ideally is typically about once a month, or I’m sorry, once a week. So it comes out weekly. And you think about it, we’re used to that with television, right? When, you know, Seinfeld came out once a week there. So that pace, people get used to it. If you start taking long times off, long time off of it, the idea that you’re gonna come back and they’re gonna find you and get back in that habit, it probably won’t hurt. Hmm. So consistency is so important. Whatever you start out with, make sure you can consistently deliver that. You know, there’s certain people that will start out with the daily podcast and then life gets in the way, right? And then they drop to two a week, and people’s first question is, well, why’d you quit?
TS (22:29):
Why are you giving up? Right?
AJV (23:41):
Hmm. I love that. So speaking of better, what would you, you say makes podcasts better? Like you do a lot, have one, I’m sure you interview a lot. What makes a great podcast?
TS (23:56):
Well, I don’t know that I will say podcasts are better, right? For me, they’re better For 51% of the US population, they’re better, right? On average, above average income, above average education, right? If you are in the academic world, in peer reviewed, you know, maybe that podcast isn’t the ideal one for you. Mm-Hmm.
TS (24:49):
G p t
AJV (25:44):
Yeah. I love, I love what you said about that. ’cause It’s so true. It’s reading something versus listening where you can hear the tonality and the context, and and especially if you’re watching right, then you get all the other components of it. If you’re watching it in video, because I do think it’s true, it’s like people fall in love with the conversation, but more so they fall in love with the people having the conversation. So how do you let your personality come out and doing it on audio? And then specifically video really helps people feel like they know you before they ever know you, right? That that’s,
TS (26:22):
Yeah. I don’t know if you’ve ever had this experience, but it’s, it, it’s freaky the first time it happens. I remember being at an airport one time and somebody came up and said, are you Tom Schwab? And my first answer was, are you a process server? Right?
AJV (27:01):
Yeah. That’s so cool. I love that. No another question I have on this topic, and I have one other topic to get to and I’m watching the clock, but I just, I love this concept of podcasts since we’re on one, and we both have one. And I’m a, I’m a huge proponent and a fan of it for lots of different reasons. But in your opinion, for those people who have a podcast who are listening to this today, and they’re struggling with knowing, how do I make it better? Like, how do I become a better interviewer? Or how do I become a better interviewee? Or what makes my podcast worth listening to, to the end? Or how do I get people to want to even check out my podcast? Any tips or ideas around that?
TS (27:48):
Very much so. And often people will come to us before they have a podcast and they wanna be a guest so that they can go out there and almost see behind the curtain how other people do it. And if you go out there as a guest, there’s less pressure. You also can practice on someone else’s stage and see how they do it. And it’s like, oh, I like how AJ does this, and I’m gonna work that into my podcast. And so it’s a great way to do that. Another way to grow the podcast cliff Ravenscraft, I, I don’t know if you know Cliff, he used to be called the Podcast Answer Band. And I remember him saying early on, the best place to follow or find podcasts listeners is listening to podcasts
TS (28:45):
Hmm. So going out on other podcasts with your ideal audience is a great way to talk about your podcast, get them back there and grow it. The final thing that I would say on that is watch the game film. And you think about what’s the difference between a professional and an amateur in sports. You know, the amateur goes out there and just loves playing the game, right? The professional plays the game and then they watch the game film. And it’s always different, right? You always learn something from it. So I, I listen to all of our clients’ first interviews to give ’em feedback, but I also recommend that they listen to their interviews because the way I hear this interview is gonna be different than when I replay it and it’s like, oh, I should have done this, or I didn’t answer that question completely. And it helps you get better. Hmm. You know, because no matter what you do, your worst interview will be your first interview. Mm-Hmm.
AJV (29:56):
So I gotta know, since you I think that’s awesome and so fascinating, what great market research that you listen to all of those podcasts. So what’s the number one piece of feedback that you give most often?
TS (30:09):
The biggest one I talk to ’em about is slowing down. Hmm. The studies say that 70% of podcasts are listened to sped up, and I’ll speak for myself. When I get excited, I talk faster and faster and faster,
TS (31:02):
So slow down. And we had a, a client early on Arthur, Joseph Arthur has been the speech coach for the N F L for over three decades. And he’s written most of the Hall of Fame speeches and coaches him. And I remember being at the end of a call one time with him, and it was like, okay, Arthur, you do this, I’ll do that. And as a true professional, he just leaned in and he goes, Tom, you have children, don’t you? I’m like, yeah, Arthur, I do. He’s like, oh, do they listen better when you speed up or you slow down? And I’ve always remembered that,
AJV (31:39):
Oh, I love that
TS (32:39):
When they’re nervous and you know, Chris Voss from Never Split the Difference you know, great, great marriage book, great business book, great parenting book about hostage negotiation, right? And I love how he talks about mirroring. So if you’ve got somebody that talks a little bit faster, you can talk a little bit faster. If they’re very slow, you better be slow because mm-hmm.
AJV (33:17):
Oh, that’s good. That’s a great tip for anyone who’s a guest on a podcast specifically. I love that. All right, last topic. Why leveraging other people’s platforms is better or more valuable, maybe not better, but more valuable than leveraging other people’s money?
TS (33:36):
I made this comment back when interest rates were what 2%. I still, I still believe it at the current interest rates. And let me give you an example. Alright. Sarah Blakely, who started Spanx, right? How did she launch Spanx? It was largely off the Oprah show. Right? Now, if Oprah would’ve said, I love this product, you know, Sarah, I’m gonna give you a million dollars interest free, just grow your business. I’m sure she wouldn’t have said no. Right? But if it was here, I’ll give you a million dollars interest free, pay it back whenever you want, or keep it right, or I’d like to bring you on mm-hmm.
TS (34:38):
I remember seeing Rory a couple years ago up in Columbus at Lewis House event, right? He realized that it was worth his time and investment to go up there and tap into somebody else’s audience. And I think especially today when it’s not, doesn’t mean that you’ve gotta jump on a plane and, and, and take time away. It’s really just, you know, 45 minutes for a podcast interview. I think a lot of people try too hard to build their audience instead of using other people’s audiences, especially at the beginning, like, what you guys always teach, and I love this, you’re doing the right things in the wrong order. Right? If I’ve got a huge following, then it makes sense to do this. And, you know, often people will say, should I be a guest or a host on a podcast? And I’m like, it’s not an either or mm-hmm.
AJV (36:05):
Yeah. No, I love that. And I completely agree. You know, it’s interesting, as you were talking, I was thinking about how many people in the Brand Builders group community come to us initially, and their, their goal is, Hey, I, I, I hear this all the time. I wanna make money while I sleep. I’m like, I think we all wanna do that. What, what, how exactly do you wanna do that? And they’re going, well, I wanna launch a course. And it’s like, okay do you have anyone to sell the course too? Well, I need to do that too. I’m like, okay, do you have content for the course? Well, that’s what I’m hiring you for. And it’s like, their very first thing is, I wanna make money while sleep, so I’m gonna build a course. And they don’t yet have a platform, and they don’t yet have the content thought out for it.
AJV (36:47):
And most importantly they forget that building a platform and launching a course takes a lot of time and a lot of money. And it’s like, back to that, you know, kind of concept of like, well, if you don’t have the platform, you’re going to need to borrow someone else’s. So who do you know who can cross promote this? Or what shows can you be on? What speaking engagements can you do? And don’t be expecting to be paid for them, right? And it’s, do you have the time, energy, resources, and money to wait that out while you do all these other things? And that’s what I, I love about this whole thing of other people’s platforms is, you know, you don’t have to have a huge platform to make a huge impact. It’s like you don’t have to recreate the wheel to make this whole make this whole car turn here.
AJV (37:32):
Other people have the wheels. You just, you kind of need to jump on and, and take it while you’re building yours. And Sarah Blakely is a great example. And even us at Brand Builders Group, it’s like, when we launched this company five years ago, we had no podcasts, no. So no social media, no email list. We didn’t even have a website when we launched, but we had a great relationship and a solid reputation with Lewis House. And Lewis had a huge platform, and that Lewis had a huge reach, and we launched our whole business on his podcast.
TS (38:11):
That is a testament, and I didn’t realize that the, the other thing I would say is you had a great reputation, right? And I think people forget about that and they’ll say, well, you know, Tony Robin sells this course. Brendan Bouchard sells this course. I I can use the same funnel, the same script, all the same hacks, right? And it’s like, but you’re not them. Yeah. Right? They’ve had those conversations, they’ve had that reputation for a long, long time. People will vouch for ’em, and after that, it all becomes easy. And once again, I, I love how you guys say doing the right things in the wrong order. And at the end of the day, we’re not optimizing for activity. Mm-Hmm. Right? We’re optimizing for the value we bring to the market, because when we bring value to the market, we also get profits. Right? Right. And what you were talking about, the conversations you have around home about supply and demand, I wish more people would have that. Right? I see. Optimizing for leads, optimizing for likes, right? That’s not what we’re optimizing for. We’re, we’re optimizing for demand to exceed supply. Yeah. Because economics in high school said that’s where profits are. And if you’re getting profits, you’re delivering value to the community.
AJV (39:27):
Yes. I mean, basic, basic law of economics applies to every single part of what we’re talking about here today. I have loved this conversation. I have one one last random pop question for you. Do you have a favorite podcast that you would like to recommend that you’re like, man, this is my go-to podcast. I learned so much from this podcast.
TS (39:53):
I, I can think of one, but I’ll say, because I listened to everybody’s podcast, their first one. I love it because, you know somebody asked me one time, what was the last podcast you listened to? I looked on my phone and I said, adoption now. And they’re like, huh? And I’m like, yeah, one of our clients were on it. It was really interesting. So I encourage people, just listen to random podcasts or listen to a podcast that you totally disagree with, with their premise, because you’ll learn something or at least appreciate them. I think my go-to one is follow your different with Christopher Lockhead. Mm-Hmm.
AJV (40:56):
Hmm. I love that. That’s so good. Y’all, if y’all have enjoyed this conversation, I would just encourage you to check Tom out, learn more about him, and also check out his new book One Conversation Away. We’ll put a link to that in the show notes, but you can go to interview valet.com/ipb for influential personal brand. Again, check it out, interview valet.com/ipv. And before I let you go, Tom can you give us just a 62nd rundown so everyone knows what is Interview Valet and what do you do?
TS (41:34):
Sure. Interview Valet is a podcast interview marketing agency. Our mission is to personally introduce inspiring thought leaders to millions of people they could serve for the betterment of all. So working with high level coaches, high level consultants, brands, nonfiction authors, to really help them get on podcasts, not just as an ego thing, but to drive real business results. So we’ve got a team of 30 in Europe and North America. My microphone makes me sound good. My team makes me look good,
AJV (42:09):
I love that. So y’all go check it out specifically if you’re trying to figure out this whole podcast game. How do you grow your podcast? Well, one way to do it is to be on others podcasts. Use that borrowed audience, and this is one way you could do that. So again, interview valet.com/ipv and stick around for the recap episode and I’ll see you next time.
Ep 423: Turning a Book into a Big Business | Scott Jeffrey Miller Episode Recap
RV (00:02):
I absolutely thoroughly enjoyed that interview with Scott Jeffrey Miller. And the reason why is because I’ve always been interested in impact, right? For me, it’s been, it’s not about fame. It’s not about you know, notoriety. It’s, it, it’s about impact. And there’s not that many personal brands that have gotten to eight figures and, and even far, far fewer that have gotten to nine figures. And so to get to hear the story of how they took Franklin Covey to be a $300 million public company was amazing. So I love that. And I’m gonna share with you here, I’m gonna share with you two things he said that I really agree with, and one that I don’t, that I, I don’t agree with. So I’ll save that one for last. All right? So stick around for that. But there’s two things he said that were major, major secrets on, on their whole, their whole journey to 300 million, right?
RV (01:02):
So the first is something that we call around brand builders group. If you’re one of our paying members, you know that, I use this analogy a lot. I call it chicken on a stick. And that is because when you go through the food court at the mall, or if you walk it through Whole Foods, right? And you’re going by, how do they try to sell you new food? They hand you a toothpick with a taste of something, right? A chicken on a stick. And it was really, I think Chick-fil-A maybe who first invented this, at least that’s what I’ve heard in the malls. And you go, ah, boy, that’s delicious. Yeah, I would like some more of that. I think I’ll have one, right? It’s the concept of a free sample. And this is how I have built my entire personal brand, how we have built my entire personal brand, how we have built brand builders group to eight figures in five years, starting on zero.
RV (01:58):
How we built six different companies now to multi seven figures and two to eight figures from scratch. It’s based on this principle and hearing Scott Jeffrey Miller tell the story, which go back if you didn’t listen to the interview, you gotta listen to this interview about how they built Franklin Covey. I’m so convicted, right? That like, you have to understand this conceptually, if you don’t understand this one idea, there’s a good chance your personal brand is not gonna succeed at the level that it can, or that it should chicken on a stick. You have to let people sample you. They have to get a free experience with you. You can’t withhold all the good information until they start paying you. They have to experience it. They have to live it. They have to feel what it’s like to be a client of yours before they become a client. And so hearing them
RV (02:58):
Tell the story about how they did all of these workshops and they paid, and that still to this day, they do them, they invite the C-level executives and they pay for them to have lunch, and they pay for the hotel venue, and they like pay for everything, and they get to come free of charge. And then they don’t even sell, they don’t even officially like sell at the event. That model works. That is the model that, that Tom Hopkins built his personal brand, and Brian Tracy and Tony Robbins and Jim Rohn, and so many of these legends of our time figured that out early. And that’s how we built our former company. We would go out and for free, do sales training. How did we sell sales coaching? We did a free sales training for the team. And then once we had trust, we made the sale.
RV (03:46):
How do we do it? Today at Brand Builders Group, we do webinars for free. We do this podcast for free. We have my whole YouTube channel. It’s free, my blog, everything that I know is like on my blog for free. Why? So people can experience and feel what it’s like to be one of our customers, at least on a small level, that’s what you need to create. If you don’t have enough customers, it’s because you haven’t had enough samplers. If you don’t have enough customers, it’s because you haven’t had enough samplers. You have to go hand out some free samples. You have to give away some free content. You have to give away some free experiences. Give away a free ticket to your event. Give a free seat in your coaching program. Or I’m a fan always of charging a dollar so that you can fully, ethically say, I have a paying customer, right?
RV (04:41):
And then at least you have a paying customer testimonial. But if you can’t get a dollar, do it for free. The way I built my speaking career, I spoke 304 times for free before getting paid a real keynote fee, 304 times for free. But by that point, a lot of people had seen me, and it was only a matter of time before someone knew someone who had an event, who needed a speaker. And they said, do you know any speakers? And they’re like, I saw this Rory Vaden guy. And right, that’s how it happened. And that’s how we get, that’s how I started speaking. You know, 20 years later, fast forward, I’m the youngest American in history to be inducted into the professional speaking Hall of fame. It started by speaking for free. That is how you do this. So, chicken on a stick, and you gotta put that, you gotta incorporate that into your personal brand.
RV (05:34):
Number two is the secret of the train the trainer model was shipping kits. That is powerful. So he tells the story, I think he said something like half of their revenue, but 80% of their profit margin came from shipping kits. What does that mean? Well, it means that they, they, they certified people inside of companies who were employees of the company. They certified those people in the content, in the curriculum that you get to be a certified Franklin Covey instructor. Doesn’t mean you go work for Franklin Covey, you work at your day job, but you get a certification. You can sell the certification, you can make money on the certification, but the real way they made money was not certifying people. The real way they made money was certifying people at huge organizations who then took the content and shared it with their whole organization, and they got the license to do that.
RV (06:41):
But if they wanted the course materials, they had to buy those from Franklin Covey. They were kits, shipping kits, these like a hundred dollars kits where it’s like, here’s a copy of the book. Here’s a workbook, here’s a little diddly do for your, for your, for your desk. Here’s a little sticky pad. You know, here’s a magnet, a little kit. You know, maybe, probably back then it, it, it came with a V H SS tape and then maybe a D V D, you know, and maybe then a thumb drive. And now today, maybe it comes with a QR code. But, but it’s, it’s, it’s, first of all, it’s commoditizing your content. It’s commoditizing your ip. It’s going, you have to get, if you’re gonna scale your impact, if you’re gonna scale your income too. But if you’re gonna scale your impact, you have to commoditize or productize or modularize your knowledge into a body of work.
RV (07:37):
And by the way, if you struggle with this, if you’ve ever struggled with this, you should hire us. We have an entire dedicated course and event and private strategy session called Captivating Content, where we help you create unique frameworks, unique intellectual property. We help you structure and formalize and document and codify your thoughts and your unique ideas into a body of work. We commoditize it. We take it out of your head, run it through our process, and create this brilliant framework. This unique framework that belongs to you. It’s your intellectual property. You go through our process, but it’s your intellectual property, and it becomes a thing that you can make millions and millions of dollars off of, right? You, you can invest a few thousand bucks with us, several thousand bucks, but several thousand dollars or tens of thousands, even if it was a hundred thousand dollars.
RV (08:34):
Even if you invested a hundred thousand dollars with Brand Builders Group, you could make millions of dollars every year, tens of millions, even hundreds of millions at the Franklin Covey level, from commoditizing your knowledge and your expertise into a unique set of frameworks, a unique methodology, something we call the modular content method, that that’s what we take people through. We can help you do that. You don’t have to work with us. We just happen to be one of the best in the world at it. And if you’re thinking about that, man, request a free call with us. We’ll do the first call for free. All you have to do is go to free brand call.com/podcast, request a call with our team, and we’ll show you how we take this from idea to a figure business, which is something that we’ve now done multiple times and we know how to do this.
RV (09:25):
We can take you there. So that’s shipping kits, which is commoditizing your knowledge and preparing it. The more commoditized, the more packageable your IP is, the more it can transmit, the more that other people can spread it, the more spreadable it is. So you’ve gotta commoditize it, you’ve gotta turn it into a kit. And if you do that, then other people can teach it for you. And now you can scale not only your impact, but your income. So that’s a key to scaling that I’ve always believed. And to hear it from behind the scenes, right? Firsthand from somebody who was there when it happened at one of the biggest training leadership and training organizations in the world. Man, I’m just, it’s like I’m so convicted on this. You have to do this like this. I’m telling you, if you wanna create global impact, you have to commoditize it and it has to be yours and it has to be unique, and it has to be original.
RV (10:20):
How do you come up with that? Who’s the best in the world at helping you actually do that? We are brand builders group. That’s the first of one of a few things that we are really, really, really good at. And I would go so far as to say the best, or at least one of the handful of the best organizations in the world at doing that specific thing. And that is the key to scale, right? It’d be worth investing hundreds of thousands of dollars to figure that out. Just to get that one thing down would be worth hundreds of thousands of dollars. And look at how, look at how it changed the future of history with what Franklin Covey has done. I mean, amazing, the impact that they’ve had. Now here’s the third thing. This is the thing that I don’t agree with what Scott Jeffrey Miller said in that interview.
RV (11:07):
I mean, no disrespect to him. I just disagree with what he said. And that is, how do you become a bestselling author? He said, the key is to write a great book. I starkly disagree with that in terms of hitting a bestseller list. It has virtually nothing to do with writing a great book. It doesn’t. And I have the data to prove this. We know that in the year 2022 of all the books that hit the New York Times bestseller list on the advice how to weekly list that we is the one that we follow the most, the closest right, the most closely. Out of all the books that hit that list, 98% of them hit it the first week the book was published, right? So 98% of New York Times bestsellers, they become the bestseller. The first week the book is out, which is before anyone has read it.
RV (12:11):
And by the way, 2023 year to date, that number is 93%. So it’s dropped a little bit, but that means the vast majority, like at least according to the way we’re looking at the data and that our data science team is processing it, the vast majority of bestselling books happened the first week. The book is out. We know something about this 17 times as of now as the recording of this. We had two new clients last week become Wall Street Journal and u s A today bestselling authors. That’s the 17th time. We’ve helped people do that. Not through cheating gaming the system. It’s not hacks. It’s through the work and the effort that we teach people in our bestseller launch plan training. That is a systematic way to sell a lot of books and then understanding how the bestseller lists operate. And we had two clients last week that did that.
RV (12:59):
Two new clients. So we’ve done that 17 times. We know something about this, it happens the first week. Now, a slight alteration of what Scott Jeffrey Miller said, which I would totally agree with, is the key to building a great personal brand or the key to building a great business is to write a great book. You can’t fake your way to 55 million copies, right? You can’t be James Clear selling 20,000, 40,000 units every single week with a crappy book. You can’t do that. So you can become a bestselling author, even if your book isn’t that good. And we can help you do that. We have what I believe is the best system in the world for ethically achieving that objective, for activating your audience and doing the work it takes to start a real movement of real readers. Not fake bots, not fake email addresses, not fake stuff, real readership.
RV (13:58):
And that takes real work. But it can be done. And we’ve done it several times and we know something about it. But the truth about building a $300 million business off of a book that needs to be a great book. And I think that’s really what Scott, Jeffrey Miller was saying and pointing out. And on that point, I do agree with that, right? You cannot, you can’t fake your way to millions and millions of copies, but you can hit the bestseller list before anyone’s even read the book. And that is, if that’s a goal you have, let’s achieve that goal first. And let’s use that to create momentum to get the book out to more people. And then hopefully you’ve written a truly great book that will propagate and perpetuate and transmit all through society, and then it will build your personal brand, make the impact, and you’ll make the income. ’cause You can’t fake your way to that one. And that’s what we’re really after, right? This is why we say bestseller lists.
RV (14:51):
Don’t change lives, but books do. So you should write a great book, but it’s not necessarily the most important thing. If you just want to be a bestselling author. We can make pretty much anyone, a bestselling author, if they’re willing to work, work at it hard enough and long enough and follow the system. But you should write a great book. ’cause That’s what’s gonna change lives. That’s what’s gonna build your brand. And if you wanna build an eight figure, a multi seven figure, eight figure, nine figure, multi nine figure brand, you gotta write a great book. So you do need to do that. So there you go. Two things I agree with, and one thing that I did not agree with from Scott Jeffrey Miller, what a phenomenal story. What a great, intelligent, intelligent man. Really love that interview. Make sure you go check it out. And if you have, you know, someone in your life that you know that wants to build a personal brand, share these episodes with them, please. Like they will. Thank you for it. It’s our honor to serve mission-driven messengers. So go out and serve somebody today. We’ll catch you next time. Bye-Bye.
Ep 422: How to Build a $300 Million Training Company with Scott Jeffrey Miller
RV (00:01):
It’s not that often that someone cold pitches us for our podcast, and then we agree to have them on. But Scott, Jeffrey Miller and his team, when they pitched us, I immediately was like, yeah, this is an easy yes. He was at 25 years, he had a career where he served as the chief marketing officer and the executive vice president for a little company you may have heard of, called Franklin Covey. He even still to this day, is the senior advisor on thought leadership, where he leads their strategy and development and the publication of their, you know, the firm’s bestselling books. He leads a host, their podcast, which is one of the biggest podcasts in the world on leadership. He personally has written seven books. He’s a Wall Street Journal, bestselling author himself. He’s got a new book coming out from Harper Collins called The Ultimate Mentoring Guide. And he also runs an agency, a speaking literary and talent agency called Gray and Miller. So I recognized all of his friends, all the work he’s done, and blown away by who this man knows how successful he’s been, what he’s been a part of. And so anyways, I was like, yes, I want to talk to Scott Jeffrey Miller, and here he is, Scott, Jeffrey Miller.
SJM (01:19):
Rory, thank you for the spotlight. Thank you for the platform. Looking forward to coming over and swimming in that pool behind you someday, but let’s get it on
RV (01:27):
SJM (01:42):
We get the name right. And Rory, it’s the Ultimate Guide to great mentorship. You, you keep condensing it. Oh,
RV (01:48):
Well, this is what I got from your team, buddy. So we might wanna,
SJM (01:51):
Oh, they’re gonna be in trouble. We
RV (01:53):
Might
SJM (01:55):
Need some inventory.
RV (01:57):
I’m reading it. Well, and here’s what I would love, in all seriousness, I would, I would love to almost treat this as if I were a mentor of yours because at Brand Builders Group my wife and I started a company that we grew to eight figures, and then we sold it. And in that company I was more kind of like the c e o and, and and she was more of the business facing kind of person. And our new company, she is the c e o and I’m more like the C M O. And I’m just totally fascinated and curious about what was Franklin Covey like 25 years ago when you started, what did, what are all the things you did? How did you do that? I mean, obviously you have seven habits of Highly Effective People sells, you know, 20 plus million copies or however many it is. Like 50, is it, is that, is it 50 million now? 55 million?
SJM (02:52):
Yeah, keep going.
RV (02:53):
I mean, what’s another 20 million? Yeah, I mean,
SJM (03:14):
Are not that much younger than me. I mean, come on, let’s go Now. Wait, are you mentoring me or am I mentoring
RV (03:19):
You? You’re mentoring me. Uhhuh
SJM (03:23):
Don’t flaunt. Don’t flaunt your good luck.
RV (03:25):
I’m just, I don’t know how old you are. You look very young, but you say 25.
SJM (03:28):
You’re I’m, I’m 43.
RV (03:30):
43, okay, great. Yeah, so you’re, anyways, you’re mentoring me. Yeah, you’re my senior.
SJM (03:34):
I’m actually 55, but let’s answer your
RV (03:36):
Question. Ah, okay. There. It’s okay.
SJM (03:38):
Let’s see. Born and raised in central Florida. Orlando worked for the Walt Disney Company for four years until they invited me to leave, which is kind of how it goes there. So,
SJM (04:29):
The E V P of thought leadership had an amazing journey. This is of course a public global leadership firm. The most trusted leadership firm we think in the world. Never expected to say 25 years, but it was a great culture. People ask me why did I stay? I say, because the c e o loved me. So my advice to your wife is people don’t quit. Leaders who love them. Mm-Hmm. The CEO liked me with nothing in common. Right. I’m a Catholic, he’s a Mormon. He is like a Kona iron Man. I like, I walk past the Peloton and say hi. He’s very reserved.
SJM (05:19):
I became very aware of the difference between being effective and being efficient. One is not better than the other, but they’re very different. And we sometimes irresponsibly use them interchangeably. Right. Having an efficient mindset is not the same as having an effective mindset under our team’s leadership. We, you know, launched 10 New York Times. We journal bestsellers, which became the lifeblood of a company that really is at its heart, a leadership development firm. Wow. Books represent about 5% of the company’s revenue, if even that. And so books were the front of the spear, the tip of the spear, if you will. And so learned a lot, got humbled a few hundred times along the way, and had an amazing journey. Retired from the firm three years ago. I think the thing that I’m most proud of is I’m still married to my wife after 14 years, and the chairman of the board and the c e o still speak to me and hire me, and I’m still in good standing, not as an employee. And I’m very proud of my association. Yeah,
RV (06:12):
That’s really cool. That’s really cool about that. You, you know, you retired and you’re still, you’re still there. So you, you mentioned the revenue. Okay. ’cause and, and Franklin Covey is a public publicly traded company. Yeah. So were you, you were there when it was a privately held company. Was
SJM (06:30):
I was, when,
RV (06:32):
When did that happen and what was that like going from We are a small private company to now we are an actual publicly traded company because there’s one of the things that we talk about you know, like we have a, we have a course called Eight Figure Entrepreneur that’s one of the like you know, sections of curriculum that we have. And we talk about how almost no personal brands get to eight figures. Like very rarely they get to seven figures, multi seven figures. We call it the swamp. Between one and 3 million. They get stuck. Very few get to, you know, 10 you know, $10 million or eight figures. But then what you’re talking about are Franklin Covey is way past that. You’re in like Dave Ramsey land and like only a few companies that have ever gotten Yes. Into the nine figure territory. So like, how and why did you guys get there? Like how did you pull that off?
SJM (07:24):
Sure. It’s, it’s far, it’s a little bit complicated. You know, 300 plus million worldwide global company based here in Salt Lake City. I think I, I’m gonna answer your question two ways. One is, I think one of the reasons why these personality guru, you know, namesake companies don’t scale, is they become too contingent on the person. Mm-Hmm.
SJM (08:15):
A good friend of mine. And I don’t think Jim has made, in my opinion, all the right decisions on how to make sure his brand endures beyond his passing, like Stephen Covey did. So that idea of diversifying beyond you being the core brand, I think is important. To answer your bigger question, ours happened a little bit differently. So Covey Leadership Center was a private boutique leadership firm owned by Stephen Covey and Seven Investors. The Franklin Quest company, 30 miles North in Salt Lake City, was the planner company. Right. A much larger public company founded by Hiram Smith, but a public firm traded on the New York, New York Stock Exchange. They had a merger known as an acquisition. And so the public company, Franklin Quest, acquired the Covey Leadership Center and came to market as the Franklin Covey Company 25 years ago. Mm-Hmm.
SJM (09:13):
With revenue goals and cost of goods and margin and ebitda. So for 20, you know, six years we were consumed with ebitda. I think I was responsible for 100 quarters, quarter after quarter. You’re only as good as your EBITDA was this last quarter. That’s probably the biggest difference. The biggest challenge was as a private company, you could focus on top line growth and be a little less worried about ebitda. And as a public company, it was an all consuming passion because we had a fiduciary responsibility to not just individual investors, but to institutional investors that had put their, you know, their retirement funds and their, you know, their, their cash into our company. So we took it extremely seriously. And the stock at its low was, I think, under a dollar. We were threatened with de-listing, and I think a few months ago it hit 54. And so it’s been an amazing journey to be part of that wealth creation for millions of people, not to mention the hundreds of millions of people that access our content in their organizations.
RV (10:16):
Yeah. That is, that’s amazing. So it really happened then through the acquisition. So this, this company that did planners Yes. Saw the value of what Dr. Covey and the team was teaching, and then they basically acquired the IP and incorporated into their planners.
SJM (10:32):
That’s a great story. If that were, what happened, I think what really happened is you had kind of two arch rivals in the marketplace. Right? The Franklin Quest company was the world dominator in thought leadership around productivity and planning, planning tools, selling hundreds of millions of dollars of paper planners each year. They had hundreds of retail stores around the nation, but they didn’t have the, the organizational wide impact around leadership development and strategy execution. Franklin or the Covey Leadership Center also had a paper planner, had a few dozen retail stores, but that market was going to go away. The companies knew the future of productivity was not in a paper planner. We knew this, we’re often mocked about that, but I mean, we actually became the, the largest retailer of palm pilots in the world as we migrated from paper planning to digital planning. Although, you know, now paper planning is back with a resurgence. I don’t know anybody doesn’t use a paper planner tool, but it was the Covey Leadership Center that kind of came out on top because Dr. Covey’s brand was still peaking. And his book, the Seven Habits continues to sell, you know, a million copies a year, which is unheard of for a book published 29 plus 30 years ago. Right. Almost 40 years ago, actually.
RV (11:48):
Yeah, that is, that’s amazing. So if, so take so back in the days of Covey Leadership Center, like, like you said today, I guess you said 5% of revenue is books and I guess is that Well,
SJM (12:02):
Probably, probably 2%. I mean, books is about maybe three to $4 million a year of a $300 million company. It’s very small.
RV (12:10):
Okay. Is that what it was? So were you there when it was Covey Leadership Center? It was, I was, you were there. You were there before. Yeah. So what was
SJM (12:19):
The, I was there always
RV (12:21):
What was the business model back then prior to the acquisition? It
SJM (12:24):
Was still similar. I mean, the books were always meant to be marketing tools. Not now, not, you know, overtly. Right. I mean, you and I share some passions and some business competencies. I’m asked daily how to write a, how to get a bestselling book. And I say, write a great book,
RV (13:40):
Uhhuh. Whoa. Wait, say that last part about per the, the daily rate you’re talking
SJM (13:45):
About. Yeah. Dr. Covey was earning $150,000 a day after his book became this, you know, seminal leadership book, the Seven Habits of Highly Effective People. So the book definitely Dro drove his personal income, right. Which was speaking, but it was mainly a marketing tool for organizations. ’cause What happened, Rory, is, you know, every year 5 million people read the seven Habits of Highly Affected People. And a million of them were leaders in organizations. And they said, oh my gosh, this book was personally transformative. I need my 30 team members to learn these principles. They would call us and spend $25,000 hiring someone from our company to come in for three days and train their staff. Or we had to train the trainer model. So we had, at any given time, you know, eight or 10,000 employees of other companies that were certified in our Train the trainer model. And that’s where the margin was. The margin wasn’t in flying a consultant around the nation. The margin was, you know, certifying 20 people at Toyota or 200 people to train our content and go train 30,000 people in the content where the margin on the workbook was 90%. Right. That was, that’s where the margin, that’s where half of the margin of the company was. And proba no half of the revenue, and probably 80% of the margin was in the train the trainer model.
RV (15:03):
And that’s because it was in the kits. ’cause You were shipping kit, you’re basically at that point just shipping kits. That’s right. All over the
SJM (15:09):
World. You’re, you’re taking orders all day long from 8,000 certified facilitators who don’t work for your company. They’re just your brand ambassador. They work for all these major Fortune 5,000 companies, and they’re in human resources and they’re training their people to be effective, and they’re training as many classes as possible so that they can create density in the organization to have a highly effective culture. So for us, it was a genius model where we’re selling world-class intellectual property in the form of a participant kit, digital or print. Now it’s mainly digital, then it was exclusively print. And now we’re growing across the world with 60 offices licensing people to represent us. And now you’ve got content translated into 25 languages. So when Exxon comes and they wanna have a true cultural transformation and train 80,000 employees across 40 countries, we can do it.
RV (16:01):
Mm-Hmm.
SJM (16:33):
It was actually exactly what you just described. First. It was the book. It was hundreds of thousands of people a month buying this book. And in it was a little paper card you could rip out and fill out and mail back to the company. I want more in, more information. I’m interested in attending a public program at a local hotel for my own personal development. I’m interested in becoming a certified facilitator. I’m interested in a keynote. I’m interested in bringing in a consultant. And thousands of these cars flowed back in the mail, like put a stamp on it and mail it back. Wow. Thousands a week came in.
RV (17:13):
Wow.
SJM (17:14):
And then you had Dr. Covey out speaking to every association, every board of directors, every conference out three and four times a day, gin up, you know, thousands and thousands of leads, and the phones were ringing off the hook like they used to do. So then you had to onboard salespeople to take all these thousands of inbound phone calls. There was no email. It was the phone in the mail, and you called people back and said, Rory, we got your inquiry card. Are you still interested? And we were just booking, you know, thousands of engagements every month, not to mention hundreds of open enrollment public programs. So there you, Dr. Covey couldn’t deliver all these, so you had to scale before you know it, you had two Coveys and then eight Coveys, and then 10 Coveys, and then 150 Coveys, meaning certified consultants that worked for our company that were out training our content. And then it just kept growing and growing and growing. And then we, you know, obviously built a massive marketing machine, and it really was based on the foundation of several books. It was the Seven Habits of Highly Effective People. And then his son, Sean Covey, wrote the book, the Seven Habits of Highly Effective Teens. This book has sold 10 million copies, and now Franklin,
RV (18:23):
Like teenagers,
SJM (18:24):
Teenagers, it’s the most successful youth leadership book in history. Franklin Covey now has a $50 million education division where they just simply sell leadership training to K 12 schools to train students and faculty and staff $50 million in the K 12 business. And then his oldest son Steven, m r Covey wrote a book called The Speed of Trust that sold 3 million copies that then became a huge trust offering how to become a high trust leader. Then they wrote books on execution and sales. And everyone became a Wall Street Journal bestseller because we made it happen ethically by having, you know, just having a tenacious work ethic and writing great books. By the way, these books took like five and six years to write these books that did really well. They didn’t write these books in nine months like I do with my books. Right. My books sell, you know, six, eight, 10,000 copies a year. They sell 300,000 copies because they take, you know, a decade sometimes to write these books. Mm-Hmm.
RV (19:28):
SJM (19:34):
Well, it was private, so I don’t know their revenue. It was private. We probably had, you know, 40 salespeople. Now they have 250. And so I’m gonna guess it was probably 50 million or 30 million. I don’t know. I was 25 years old and it was 30 years ago. And it was a private company, so it wasn’t disclosed or discussed
RV (19:55):
Uhhuh
SJM (20:00):
Something like that. Yeah. Now there’s probably about 1200 around the world. And not to mention, you know, literally hundreds of thousands of ambassadors, because what happens is when Rory leaves Exxon and goes to Disney, he brings the content with them. And then when he goes to, you know Twitter or X, he, he go, takes it there too. They could use the content by the way. But it’s what, what Dr. Covey did was he very quickly checked his ego. Mm. And one of his best talents was he was a very humble man. He did not need to be the star of the company. He did not need to be on stage. And he realized if the mission was to impact billions of people, that in order to scale, he had to deputize people in his place. Same character, same competence, and sometimes better competence.
SJM (20:47):
I, I don’t think Dr. Covey was a great presenter. I think he was a great teacher. But I mean, there’s a hundred people that deliver the content better than Dr. Covey ever did, in my opinion. That has nothing to do with whether he wasn’t a, a person of enormous influence and character. He was. But he realized if I’m gonna change the world and I’m gonna grow this company into a juggernaut, I gotta step out of the way. I’ve gotta recruit talent. He was a, he was a college professor. He wasn’t, he didn’t know how to run a company. He did. And he, and he did it beautifully in the beginning, but what I think he did best was he stepped out of the way and hired operators and marketers and people understood process. And then he was the intellectual property genius, creating new content and connecting with audiences, and then stepped outta the way to scale it with great salespeople and great delivery consultants, presenters, keynote speakers. Mm-Hmm.
RV (21:41):
So when you think back over, like in the marketing role, c m o right? That’s a pretty big shift from 50 million to 300 million. That’s a long, that’s a lot of distance that you guys have covered. When you look at like, some of the big marketing initiatives that have, you know, made that effort. I mean, you talked about the pullout mailer card. Yes. Were there any other like really pivotal moments Yes. That you think back on
SJM (22:08):
One in particular, and it’s kind of a mantra at Franklin Covey where I no longer work or am an officer, but consult externally on a variety of things for the board and the chairman and the c e o and host two podcasts for them. The mantra is nothing sells Franklin Covey, like a Franklin Covey experience. Hmm. If you take Rory and you certify him as a bonafide Franklin Covey consultant, and you put Rory in, you know, a Western hotel room in Miami, and you get 70 chief learning officers, chief human resource officers, vice president of talent development in the room for three hours with Rory pro bono. Right. Serve a chicken lunch, no charge, get ’em in the room. Don’t try to sell anything to them. Just teach them the principles of engagement. Building a culture, how to be highly effective, how to build a high trust culture with where millennials come and stay.
SJM (23:06):
Eight of them will walk away and buy from you. 24, 22 won’t, but eight will and replicate that model. Get people to taste and feel the experience. It might be reading a book, it might be listening to an audio tape, it might be going to a three day public program at a Marriott with 40 people. You don’t know. It might be a marketing breakfast or a lunch might be a full day program where you invite, you know, CFOs to come and teach CFOs how to build an interpersonal culture where people choose to build their whole career under you. You’re gonna land 10 of them. And that’s what we did better than anybody in the world. Mm-Hmm.
RV (24:13):
Wow. And you were saying that those events might have like 30 people in ’em and typically something like that. They were small. It’s not like you’re packing out arenas, you’re just going No,
SJM (24:23):
Although we did, oh, we, we, we would have events at 200. But the magic model, honest to God, the magic model was, and this isn’t, you know, sales secret to Franklin Covey, but the magic model was curating the list very carefully, calling, inviting people to a non-sales event, underwriting it. Right. We’re not charging you for it. We’re gonna serve you lunch, you’re gonna be with your peers. There’ll be no sales pitch. We’re just gonna teach you X, Y, or Z. And, you know, you invite, you know, 200 and a hundred say yes. And then you vet ’em out and then 70 Promise they’re gonna come and 45 show up. So you set the room for 52, and then you’d give them just a quality experience where they can talk and you talk and they share, and you share and you share principles of effectiveness that they desperately need in their company.
SJM (25:13):
They desperately need people that have great skill sets around technical capabilities and hard skills, but most of them lack the soft skills now known as power skills. And you teach these power skills of interpersonal effectiveness. And we know to the precise algorithm who’s gonna buy, how long it will take and how much they will spend. And you get this formula, you tweak it, you tweak it, you massage it. What you do not do is you don’t shortcut it. You don’t invite ’em, pardon the phrase to a country. And in suites you don’t invite them to Ritz Carlton. You invite them to a, a a, an appropriate hotel that matches their culture and their comfortability. You put them in the right size room at the right time of the day for the right period of time, teach them great content, and then you follow up and you have a winning formula, of course, that, that, that contracted in the pandemic.
SJM (26:08):
Right. Everything became a podcast, a webinar, an email. And now I think they’re coming back to these live person events and they’re seeing enormous benefit because innately people are human creatures that crave connection and interpersonal relationships. And you get into a Franklin Covey room for even 90 minutes. Right. We have C-suite events that are just for the C-suite, 90 minutes. They’re usually breakfast seven to eight 30 ’cause a ’cause you know, a C-level person can do that. They can’t come to lunch, they can’t come to a three o’clock event or a 10 o’clock event. You’ll have an 80% no show rate. You’ll have a 90% show rate if you do a breakfast before the C-suite actually has to be in the office. Just kind of tweaking and playing.
RV (26:52):
Man, that is so awesome and simple and powerful, right. Of just, just adding value to people’s lives first and then letting it, letting it fall out from there. Yeah. You mentioned ego. I feel like the companies that get a chance to scale a a lot of times start to fall apart because of someone’s ego or a few people’s ego. And it’s interesting ’cause you wrote books while you were there, even though you’re retired now as your consultant. So you guys, you’ve mentioned even in the family, they had several personal brands, but also you had a personal brand that you were starting. What was the philosophy there? Because I feel like a lot of companies are not quick to embrace the idea of personal brands of the executives because there’s this fear of they’re gonna get too big for their britches and it causes conflict and jealousy and all these issues. But clearly you guys have done this. How have you balanced personal brands with the corporate brand
SJM (27:49):
Was not well received.
RV (27:50):
Ah,
SJM (27:51):
I was a pariah. The company’s culture, which by the way, I am an unabashed ambassador for Franklin Covey, if you want to change the culture of your company, Franklin Covey, in my opinion, is the most trustworthy, ethical provider of principles in the marketplace. I have nothing but a positive thing to say about this company, period. I’m an unabashed evangelist for them. They don’t pay me to do that. And at Franklin Covey, there was a philosophy that you can’t have a personal brand. It’s all about the company. It’s Franklin Covey. And I think it was a wrong decision. I think it was rooted in the culture of the dominant population in the state. You can read the lines there, but I think it was a dangerous misstep for the company because people don’t follow companies on Instagram. They follow people. People don’t follow people on LinkedIn.
SJM (28:48):
They follow people. And I think I was a pariah. I don’t think I was, I know for a fact I was a pariah for the last three years of my career there, where I started to write books. And my books did quite well because I marketed them and I built a brand with myself on YouTube and Instagram and LinkedIn and Facebook and you name it. I was very self-promotional. ’cause I knew that was the formula that was gonna take me. And I thought the company to the next level. I think the company is starting to really realize the benefit of raising up individual thought leaders in the organization. Not that are self-serving, but are in service to the brand, but can build a massive followership. People care more what Stephen, Mr. R Covey has to say about trust than they do what Franklin Covey has to say about trust. They care more about what Chris McChesney has to say about executing strategy. He’s the author of the Wall Street Journal, best history,
RV (29:49):
Foreign Disciplines of Execution. Yeah.
SJM (29:50):
Foreign disciplines. Right? Yeah. And so I think there’s a fine balance of not being a grandstander not being an opportunist while still building your brand. And so it wasn’t the case. I I I, there was a cross on the front yard with me and some flames on it for quite a while as I became the Johnny Apple seed of finding that delicate balance and tension of building your brand, not at the expense of, but in service with the overall all brand. And it’s, you know, not everybody gets it right. I didn’t always get it right. The c e o and I are very good friends to this day. He used to work for me, now I work for him. And so we talk a lot about that balance of not having your brand overshadow the company’s brand, but being able to each of you kind of ride each other’s waves in tandem for the service of the company, our clients and our shareholders. It, it’s a delicate balance.
RV (30:48):
Mm-Hmm.
SJM (31:52):
Over and over and over again. Franklin Covey was an interesting test because we were a public company. There’s very few public leadership development firms Yeah. That were, you know, eccentrically founded on a guy who passed 10 years ago. And the company has grown independent of his foundation. Interdependent. And, but at the same time, rising up thought leaders that may or may not stay. I mean, one of my biggest contributions to the firm has been to judiciously select authors that are employees of the company that aren’t gonna leave two years from now when the book’s been outta the marketplace for a year and have to rewrite the book or extract them from the book or whatever. So we take great care with the people that write our books. Sometimes they leave, sometimes they usually they stay, we’ve only had two leave and like 30 years of authors, maybe three.
SJM (32:42):
But they’re all in good standing. Right. it’s a precarious balance that takes a lot of care and commitment and non-disclosures and privacy agreements and high trust. At the end of the day, you know, anybody can violate a non-compete and not be sued. At the end of the day, it’s your character to say, I hope, like I have modeled, I wanna build my brand independent of Franklin Covey not on the heels of their brand and not at the expense of their brand and never in spite of their brand. And I always want that company to serve well. And I think it’s why I’m still able to consult with them and earn a nice living with them because they know that I’m not trying to diminish their brand and I care passionate about what they do and who they are. We don’t agree on all decisions, but as I mentioned earlier, I think it’s the thing I’m second most proud of in life is that I’m able to not just peacefully coexist, but work well interdependently with them in the marketplace.
SJM (33:39):
Mm-Hmm.
RV (34:16):
That’s really cool too. I mean, they, they, you know, to what you’re saying about Dr. Covey and his humility in the first place, that became a culture of philosophy, the whole company that definitely it is really wonderful that there’s never that they’ve been able to reach the size and the magnitude of the impact and not have a lot of those kind of, you know, things going on at, you know, in a public, in a public sense of scandals and all of that. So well, tell us, tell us quickly about the new book. Tell us what you’re up to these days and would love to just hear a a little bit about that before we wrap up.
SJM (34:49):
Thanks. the book I just released from Harper Collins is called The Ultimate Guide to Great Mentorship book. They actually approached me, they thought that the space needed a very practical book on mentorship and had written several books for them called Master Mentors that are books based on the podcast that I host for them on leadership with Scott Miller. And I’m very pleased with the success of the book out of the gates, including a a robust keynote roster that I have coming up, usually about three a week in person right now. So I’m on the road a lot, which is tough ’cause my wife and I have three young sons. I have a new book behind Me in yellow coming out in February called Career on Course from Baker Up in Michigan. It’s 10 strategies to take your career from accidental to intentional. I have two more books in the queue that are will be coming out in, in 2025. That’s
RV (35:39):
A lot of books, man. You’re cranking out some books.
SJM (35:41):
I like to write books and speak because as you mentioned, I’m a talent agent. I co-own a fast growing, speaking literary and talent agent. So I like to know what my clients are going through. I like to know how to make a bestseller, how to build a brand, how to build a website, how to build your social media, how to build a speaking career, how to productize and monetize your intellectual property in a book into courses and certifications. No one’s making money on books, but Donald Miller, he’s making some money. Amy Porterfield’s making some money. They
RV (36:13):
Sell a lot of books if you,
SJM (36:14):
What’s that? If
RV (36:15):
You sell enough books, right.
SJM (36:17):
Enough books. But yeah, the book business is really about influencing people and being able to monetize it in ways through speaking in courses and things like that. And I like to write books so that I am relevant to the clients I represent. Mm-Hmm.
RV (36:29):
Mm-Hmm.
SJM (36:35):
Champagne Region of France. We can link up and hook up down there in southern France. No you can visit Scott Jeffrey Miller dot com. I like a good glass of champagne, bro. You can visit great mentorship.com. Love to have you follow me on any social platform to my wife’s who I’m on them all multiple times a day.
RV (36:55):
Mm-Hmm.
SJM (37:33):
There’s no shortcuts. There’s no such thing as overnight success. Hmm. There is overnight fame and it’s usually Ill-gotten and fleeting. But you look at the consistency behind people like Seth Godin, Dan Pink, Liz Wiseman, Susan Kane, Kim Scott, Rachel Hollis, Lewis Howes, Donald Miller, Amy Porterfield, on, on and on. These people were not overnight sensations. I met Amy Porterfield four years ago. We were both speaking at Rachel Hollis and Dave Hollis’s Thrive Business event in Charleston. I didn’t even know who Amy Porterfield was. She obviously was a big name in the, you know, entrepreneurship email world. I didn’t even know who she was. Look at her today. Amy Porterfield owns America. It’s like amazing. This did not happen overnight. Look at Donald Miller’s influence, right? It’s just Rachel Hollis a good friend of mine. I think it took her six books. She wrote six books until her book was finally in a bookstore and became a bestseller.
SJM (38:37):
You never heard of Rachel Hollis’s first six books? You gotta build your brand consistently, carefully find who your niche audience is. I think Seth Golden is a genius. I’m honored to be friends with him and have him endorse my books. He talks about this idea of this smallest viable market. I think most of us that have been to business school, we think about the total addressable market or the largest market. Know what is your fa, smallest, viable market? How few people can you build your business around? What are their names? What are the things I like most about Rachel at her peak? And I still, like Rachel had a rough couple years, I see her back on the rise. I’m a big Rachel Hollis fan is she knew exactly who her customer was. She knew what her name was, her age, her fears, her passions, her talents, her weaknesses, her traumas, her dramas. She knew exactly who her customer was. Like no one I’d ever met in my life. Focus on your smallest viable market and take your time. Dr. Covey spent 10 years writing the Seven Habits of Highly Effective People. He was 54 when that book became a bestseller. Take your time. It’ll come.
RV (39:48):
Wow. I love that. What a word. What a word. Well, Scott, Jeffrey Miller, it’s great to meet you. I’m so glad your team cold pitched me such an impressive career, amazing story. And we’ll be following you closely, man, and wishing you the best. You
SJM (40:05):
And I gonna have lunch in Nashville. I’m treating
RV (40:07):
Sounds good. I’m in for it. I’ll see you then in touch.
SJM (40:10):
Thanks for the platform, Rory. Nice meeting you.
Ep 421: Use Your Existing Customer Base to Double Your Business | Nikki Nash Episode Recap
AJV (00:02):
All right, y’all, let’s talk about three things that you can do with your existing client base to help you double your business. Now, it does not matter what kind of business you’re in. These are three things that are universal that you can actually start to do now to help you grow and scale your business. And this is all within the context of the clients you already have. So I will say, I’ll preface, you need to have clients for this to work. So if you’re at the very, very beginning stages of your business earmark this particular training, come back to it when you have a handful of clients because this is gonna be most useful to you once you already have an existing client base. So how do we grow our business from within our current client base? I’m gonna just talk about three quick ideas.
AJV (00:48):
First one is create new products and services that can serve your existing client base. One of the things that we talk about at brand builders a lot is the concept of fractal math. And I’ll go through this very high level but just let’s say you have a hundred clients. The assumption using fractal math is that at least 10% of your clients will spend 10 times the amount that they’re currently spending with you. So if you have a hundred clients, again, for easy math that are each paying you a hundred dollars, at least 10% of those people, 10 people would likely spend 10 times the amount that they’re currently spending a hundred dollars, which 10 times that would be a thousand dollars. So if you have a hundred clients that spend each spend a hundred dollars with you, then at least 10 of those people would be willing to spend a thousand dollars with you.
AJV (01:48):
That is fracked on math. That goes down again. So if you now have 10 clients that are spending a thousand dollars with you, the assumption with fractal math that at least 10% of those people would also spend 10 times the investment. So if you have 10 clients, then at least one person would be willing to spend 10 times their current investment, which would be 10 times a thousand, which would be $10,000 with you. So if you have a hundred clients, then you have at least 10 of them who would be spending a thousand dollars with you, and then you have at least one of those who would spend $10,000 with you. And so a huge part of what we need to do is not create brand new programs to go out and market into the community trying to get new clients, but is to figure out what is the most meaningful, what are the deepest ways that I can serve the people that I’m already serving, right? Your existing customer base, what more do they want from you? What more do they need from you? And how can you package that in a way that they would be willing to spend more money with you to get more access to you, more time with you more work done from you, whatever it may be.
AJV (02:59):
So it’s that concept of fractal math. And if you don’t know what to offer, the best thing you can do is just ask your super clients, right? Go to the top five, top 10, how many of your clients you have, top 20 clients that you have that have been with you the longest, love you, the most that you know of, spend the most money with you and go, Hey, if I were to create something new, what would you want? I’m coming up with some new program ideas and I wanna create it for your, you know, your avatar. You are who I wanna serve. What more would you want from me? And just ask. It’s the best market research you can get is asking your current customers who already know you like you and spend money with you. So that’s the first thing is just find new ways to serve your existing client base.
AJV (03:45):
I e sell more to your existing client base. Number two, keep your existing clients
AJV (04:43):
We forget to continue to market and sell what we do. And so if you’re selling, you know, 12 month agreements or three month or six month, it doesn’t matter what you’re selling. You have to continually talk about, hey, this is the initial terms of our agreement and this initial year together and this initial phase together and these initial steps together. So you wanna help people know, it’s like this is not a 12 month program, right? It’s phase one is 12 months, right? The initial term is 12 months. And that is a very intentional verbiage and language that you need to use in marketing, your initial sales conversations on every single client interaction in your ongoing marketing in your ongoing communication. You need to create that atmosphere of, I have more to give that extends 12 months. So you may not choose to be here 12 months, but my program goes beyond 12 months. We just choose to review and renew at 12 month increments. And so one very quick tip that I’ve always done since the beginning of my coaching years, which, how old am I, how long have I been doing this for? Almost 20 years, that feels impossible to say that,
AJV (05:56):
That for almost 20 years, this has been one of my key policies, key philosophies in retention is that from the very first call, very first coaching call or client engagement, doesn’t have to be a coaching call, consulting, engagement, whatever. As I always talk about the next three calls or the next three months or the next three things. And so at the end of every call or training, I talk about the next three, right? So let’s just say it was a coaching call. At the end of today’s call, I’ll say you know, Hey Terry after our call that I’m gonna send you a recap and I’m gonna go ahead and put together what I think based on our time today are the three topics of conversation that I wanna map out for the next three months. And so we talk every month.
AJV (06:41):
So this is my plan. I’m gonna put that in the email. I want you to think about it. If we need to change things and adapt things, then we can, but based on today, I’m gonna go ahead and map out our next 90 days, our next three months together. And I would do that all the time from the very first time. So when I get to month 10, 11, 12, it’s not new for me to go in month 12 at the end of the agreement of, hey, just so you know, we’re coming up on our 12th call. Here’s the mapping for our next three calls. However, our first set of engagements ends at this next call. Do you want me to go ahead and keep mapping those next calls? Or do you wanna talk about an an exit plan? So we’ve got a continuity plan or we have our exit plan and it’s a very natural ease of transition because I’ve been talking about the next three months from the very first month.
AJV (07:30):
So when I get to month, whatever is the end of my program, I’m still talking about the next three months as if they’re going to continue. And then it’s an easy transition to go. And by the way, like we can use this time to talk about the next three months, or we need to talk about what it looks like for you to carry on in the next three months without me, but would love to keep it going together, right? So that would be the second thing with just retention and renewals of always having a plan for the future and always talking about that. Then. So, okay, let’s just recap. So we’ve got sell to our existing clients. We have to retain our existing clients. And then last but definitely not least is we need to get referrals from our existing clients. That’s real important. So a couple of things.
AJV (08:14):
Getting referrals starts in your marketing language. This should be a part of your company culture. It should be a part of your sales culture, your operations, your customer care, your delivery. Everyone should be talking about growing your business through referral. So it has to start in marketing. Number two, it has to be all the places all the time. So it needs to be visible everywhere you go. It’s not that you’re gonna depend on one person asking for referral. It’s like, no, we talk about how our community is word of mouth. People ask me all the time, it’s like, Hey, aj, is there anything I can do for you? I’m like, yeah, you can give me referrals to help grow my business.
AJV (08:54):
But when people go, Hey, how can I help? I’m like, honestly, you can help share the word of brand builders group. That’s how you can help. Genuinely, we are a word of mouth business. We do very little paid marketing. We are a referral based business. So I depend on people like you telling the people that you think would be a good fit that we exist. So that’s how you can help. It needs to be easily found on your website or in your learning portal, in your email marketing, you know, like a brand builders group. We have a whole slogan for it. It’s called B B G for free. And it’s like, Hey, we want you to invite your friends to be a part of this community. Help us grow the community with people that you wanna be in community with. And it’s called b g for free.
AJV (09:36):
And it’s if you refer people to us we actually pay you referral fees where they’re gonna pay it to a paid marketing agency or we’re gonna pay it to our customer base. We’re choosing to pay it to our customer base. So we’re choosing to pay you to help be our marketing force versus paying a traditional advertising company. So make it a part of your culture, then make it easy. Give people multiple ways to refer you business. So I can just use Brand Builders Group as an example because that’s what I know the best. It’s so it’s like you can click on a link and you can populate your own U R L. Now that’s easy to do for you the customer. That’s not always easy to set up on the backend. It took us a long time to set up that infrastructure, but it’s like you can just click a link, make your own custom a referral link and use that.
AJV (10:24):
We also have a simple form that you can just fill out a form and emails our sales team notifying, Hey, there’s a referral to be had here. You can also click on a phone number and talk to someone and go, Hey, I’m not really sure, but this is someone I think, so that we have three different ways that you can actually refer us business. And it’s like, what’s easiest for you? Do you wanna just talk to us and have us reach out on your behalf? Do you wanna click this form and just give us the info and we can take it from there? Or do you wanna click this link, make your own u r l and you can send it out on social media, send it to your friends in an email send an email out to your list. We’re trying to make it easy for you. And so, again, how do you double your business from your existing clients? It’s one you sell new programs, new services to your existing clients. If you don’t know what, ask them. Remember the concept of fractal math. Number two retain your existing clients. Keep them longer. It’s the cheapest, fastest way of going your business is you’re not having to replace your clients. And then number three, get referrals from your existing client base. So there you go, three ways that you can start to double your business from your existing business.
Ep 420: Rethink Your Business Development Strategy to Grow Sales with Nikki Nash
AJV (00:02):
Hey everybody. Welcome to the Influential Personal Brand podcast. This is AJ Baden, one of your co-hosts today, and today is super sweet and special ’cause I get to connect with an old friend Nikki Nash. And I have to tell you guys this very quick story of Nikki could have so easily reached out to me to schedule this awesome interview today. But she got randomly pitched to me by some podcast company, and they came in, they were, I’m like, Nikki Nash, I must, I must be talking about a different Nikki Nash. And then when it was the same Nikki, I was like, I just so you guys know, I know this woman and you should not get credit for this
AJV (00:50):
So I am so excited to have Nikki on the show. But before I give her a formal introduction, I want everyone to know what we’re talking about today and why you need to stick around. So this should be appealing to anyone and everyone who is listening. And this is not an episode you want to miss if you would like to grow your business, because today we’re gonna be talking about how do you double your business in the next 12 to 18 months. And if you are that visionary, c e o or small business owner, like what are the core things, the key things that you should be doing to double your business? And then what are the five top must haves that seven figure business owners need to do must do to double your business? So there’s a theme here, which is growing and scaling your business, and how do you do that in a way that works for you?
AJV (01:44):
So if you fit in that category, stick around. You don’t wanna leave early, it’s gonna be awesome. Now, with that said, I will give you a quick formal introduction of the one and oh, Nikki Nash, and then we’ll actually get to the interview. But Nikki is a Hay House author. She’s a bestselling author of the book Market, your Genius, which everyone should pick up and give a whirl. She’s also the host of a top rated podcast bearing the same name Market Your Genius. So by the book, listen to the podcast. She’s also a renowned expert in crafting marketing strategies with a unique focus on empowering fast growing coaching and online companies. Most of you are in that category, so that’s why I am having her on the show today. But she also has a real specialty in helping drive a sustainable growth, which is the most important thing.
AJV (02:37):
This isn’t a go hard, you know, like, do or die. We’re going to do it at all costs, and then you’re gonna burn out. So how do you do it in a way that works and that is sustainable for you? So without further ado, Nikki, welcome to our show. Oh my goodness, thank you so much for having me. Oh, I’m so excited for you to get to share your genius with our audience. And so, all right, let’s just let’s start with the most compelling of all of these topics that you and I kind of went through, because I think everyone would kind of like to know how do you double your business in 12 to 18 months? So tell us, what are the secrets that we’re all missing? How do we do this?
NN (03:19):
I mean, the, the super simple answer is to have a really crystal clear strategy and focus, but the reality is, is that there are a couple of ways to grow your business really quickly. And one of them is the obvious. It’s like, bring on a bunch of new clients. That’s what a lot of people think about. They’re like, oh, I gotta market and get new leads and get new clients. But people often forget about the magic of your existing clients and past clients. And that’s honestly the fastest way to go, because the probability of selling to an existing client is 60% higher than selling to a new client. So if you can think about your existing clients, and there are kind of like three ways that they can help you if they can buy more, right? Like if you, if they’re already in a program and you have them buy a v i p day or buy a, a additional course or a session or something, then that’s bringing in more money pretty quickly.
NN (04:13):
If you have them stay longer in your programming, then wow, okay, then that’s having them spend more money with you over their lifetime. And the other piece that a lot of people don’t think about is if they can get their current clients to refer them new clients, right? Because when they have clients coming in, it’s just known that the referred clients end up staying longer and spending more money than clients that just come to you not from a referral. And so those are kind of the, the existing client’s magic. And what I usually do when someone wants to double their business is we sit down, we do the math, and we look at, okay, which is most likely going to happen in that timeframe? Is it, oh, you know, just dump more money on ads
AJV (05:06):
And cheaper
NN (05:07):
And cheaper. Oh my gosh. It just makes the money that you do spend on the front end or the time you spend on the front end have much higher r o i because it’s like, oh, I brought this client in with my blood, sweat, tears and money, but it’s actually bringing in way more money than it did, you know, last year or last month when you, when you focus on really getting the most out of your existing clients. Yeah.
AJV (05:30):
So I’d love to talk about each of those because I think each of those categories are like standalone opportunities to really go. It’s like, man, you could double your business with any one of these three categories that you kind of mentioned. So let’s start with the first one with selling to your existing clients, right? Which means you have to have more than one product offering, one service offering. So for the people who are listening that are going I only offer this one thing
NN (06:19):
Yeah, I mean, the easiest thing for me is to ask yourself, what are your clients really, really needing right now? Hmm. Like, do you have a group of them that are all saying, man, you know, aj I love building out my my focus and my personal brand, but I really could use some help with this TED Talk or TEDx I have coming up and I’ve gotta talk. And you’re, you already have these offers, you’re like, ah, no worries. I’m gonna bring a group of people together and teach them how to craft their their talk. Right? That could be something that you just add on because, you know, you have a bunch of clients that are having a similar pain point or asking for a similar request, and you can bring them together and just say, Hey, on this day, come in person, come virtually.
NN (07:01):
I’m gonna show you how to do this thing. Right? That’s easy. If there’s something you know your clients are struggling with, that’s naturally easy for you and you could bang it out in a few minutes, do that. Right? Like, I’ll give you an example for my business. A lot of clients come to me and say, Nikki, I know that I wanna create content, but I just can’t come up with ideas. I sit there by myself and I’ve got nothing. I sit and listen to people talk for five minutes, and I have a million ideas for what content they should be posting online. And so I just literally offer time with clients to sit down and I interview them, kind of like how we’re doing right now, as if it were a podcast interview, ask them a ton of questions about their expertise, and I just let my brain go with ideas, and I write them all down, and then I give it to them in a nice templated document that’s personalized for them. Here are your content prompts and your content ideas, bam. That’s just something additional. So really think, what do you cl what do your clients need? And what can you deliver easily? Whether it’s in a group, small group setting a one-on-one setting, a done for you type of thing. That’s honestly the easiest way to just add another offer in without blowing up your business model.
AJV (08:15):
Yeah. And it’s, you know, it’s so funny that you bring this up. ’cause I think about so many of the clients that we get to interact with at Brand Builders Group, and then also just friends who are in the industry like you of going, I think most of the time as a, you know, small to medium sized business owner, we just over overcomplicated. We think, oh, well, we need this whole new course, or we need this you know, this new funnel to support. And it’s like, no, you need like A P D F, that’s all you need, right? You need like a P D F or you need an email that you can send to people saying, this is this one new thing that I’m offering. Would you like to participate? What, what would you say? Like, have you seen a lot of clients or even in yourself, like how much weight or how much value do you think it carries to actually just ask your clients? It’s like, Hey, I’m thinking about offering some new services. What would appeal to you?
NN (09:11):
Yeah, I think that’s brilliant and not enough people do it because I, and I get it, there’s oftentimes when you’re the business owner, this feeling or pressure that you have to have it together and know what you’re offering and have everything mapped out perfectly before you speak to anybody about it. And honestly, the whole idea of just coming up with content prompts and in an interview style happened because I sat down with a friend who was struggling with content. I said, I could help her in five seconds, not literally five seconds, but you get what I mean, I did it for her. And she kept talking about how it’s the most valuable thing she’s ever received and how she looks at this piece of paper almost every day. Mm-Hmm. And I’m sitting there like, really? And I just started asking people, Hey, if I did something like this, would this be of value to you? And the number of people that said yes, because I struggle with it. And oftentimes business owners don’t realize what a gift they have, because for me, coming up with content ideas and content prompts, I can do all day every day, probably while I’m sleeping. So in my mind, I’m like, everybody can do that, but it’s not even sort of true. And so really take the time, ask people what is it that they need? What would be of huge value to them? And you never know what’s what’s gonna come out of it.
AJV (10:31):
Yeah. It’s like that old saying, one man’s trash is is another man’s treasure. And it’s like one woman’s genius is another woman’s frustration. And it’s like we all have these unique geniuses within us that someone else is like, this is the best thing I’ve ever seen. Like, it took me literally 10 minutes. I can’t even believe I charged you for this. Right? And it’s like, so I, I love that of going, I mean, how many of us as business owners don’t even pay attention to those little comments of like, this one thing changed my life? Because you take it for granted how easy it was for you to do. So like a big takeaway I kind of just wrote down is just as you’re delivering your products and services, like pay attention to asking questions like, what was the most impactful thing that you received?
AJV (11:23):
Like, what did you love most about this program or this experience? And then try to duplicate that in a fashion for others. I love that. Absolutely. Yeah. Right. And it’s such a great reminder, ju, just because it’s easy for you does not mean it’s easy for anyone else. And there is likely many people out there who would pay you to do the thing that you take for granted that you do for yourself. I love that. That’s so good. All right, so the next category retention, right? Yes. So yes. So not having to replace your clients and not constantly find new ones has everything to do with can you keep the ones you have? Can you keep ’em? So what do we need to know when it comes to retaining our customers? What do we need to be paying attention to? Yeah,
NN (12:06):
I mean, the first thing that I would say is to realize that you can retain your clients. I remember for myself, and I, I laugh so hard when I look back and picture myself going through this, but I remember the, one of my first clients on a coaching call said to me, oh, Nikki, I know our sessions are coming to an end and I just wanted to have a conversation with you about how we can keep working together. And I sat there and I’m like, you know what? I would love to do that. Why don’t we schedule a separate call? Because then we can talk through what that would look like so that we don’t use up your coaching session. But absolutely, I have a system and for working with clients longer, I did not, but I was like, oh, absolutely. Like we can keep working together.
NN (12:50):
NN (13:41):
AJV (14:55):
Yeah. I love that. There’s so many comments I have on this. Like, our internal mantra at Brand Builders Group for our membership community is utilization equals retention. If you’re, if they’re not using it, at some point they’re gonna say, why am I paying for this? And it’s like, our number one job is to ensure that one, you use it and two, that you get results from using it. I e you’re loving it, but if you don’t use it, then at some point, like there’s, they’re not gonna pay for it anymore. But it’s, you know, we talk about this all day long, up, down, and all around about the importance of step one. They cannot enjoy what they do not use. So they have to use it. And then we have to ensure that they love it beyond imagination, right? It’s the goal. But you said something in there around just language, and it made me think about being, you know, a former coach and consultant prior to brand builders group.
AJV (15:52):
Like, one of the things that was so challenging for me is, you know, I did all my own lead generation and marketing and sales sales. Then you get the client and it’s like, okay, now I have to mentally transfer from business development mode to, you know, quality content, quality value delivery mode. And then it’s like, at some point you gotta be like, no, you can’t really leave the sales part over there. The sales has to come along with you. So that you’re always reiterating, hey, like this is part one of our time together and this is the initial terms of our agreement. And let’s talk about continuity plans and a maintenance strategy. And you know, all of those words that once you transition from business development mode into delivery, you forget to use. ’cause You’re now, you’re so focused on providing value, but what I hear you saying is like, no, we, we gotta have that part of this into every single conversation so that you’re priming people to be with you way beyond those initial terms.
NN (16:53):
Absolutely. And most people think even if they have somewhere in their presentations or their group program or whatever it is, that they’re delivering a conversation about the next level, oftentimes it’s either too late or not frequently enough. Mm-Hmm.
NN (17:41):
And I’m like, whoa. People decide it’s way too late. Really, I believe those conversations should start in marketing. Like before they even swipe their credit card or, you know, transfer money, you should be having conversations about staying with you throughout a, a long-term relationship. And so I think that’s number one, but number two, get comfortable with speaking about it often and using those language like continuing to work with you or after this, after you hit this milestone, here’s what’s next for us. And speaking about that all the time just helps people know that they’re, you’re both in it to win it. It’s kind of like dating, right? Like, if you’re dating someone and in your mind you’ve planned your wedding and they’re just like, ah, let’s have some fun. It’s probably not gonna go well. So you wanna clearly communicate your marriage plans early on and make sure they’re comfortable with it before you even get to the wedding. Maybe not exactly like dating, but
AJV (18:39):
Yeah, I, I totally agree with that. It’s, you know, but I think the part of it is most people bring it up too late. Yeah. Right? And it’s like, it’s very similar to dating. Like, I, I, I had this nickname can’t believe I’m sharing this, but in college, my nickname was the one date Wonder. And it’s like, because I was like, if I don’t think I’m gonna marry you, I don’t need to go on a second date with you,
AJV (19:23):
And I was like, well, this is our last date. And he goes, what do you mean this is our last date? And I’m like, well, you’re not the one. So this is our last date. And it’s a little bit like that. If you don’t have those conversations early, it’s too late. And it’s like now it feels like you’re back in a sales conversation. And on the client end it’s like, okay, well that’s weird because, you know, I’ve been working with you for six months and we have this relationship. Now I feel like you’re selling me again when all you had to do was tell me from the beginning, Hey, this initial, this initial six months, here’s what we’re gonna be working on, and then we’ll talk about the next six months. If you set those expectations early, it never feels like I’m reentering a sales conversation. It always feels like, oh yeah, you told me, you told me that every single time we talked, and now here we are. So it’s like the more you talk about it, the easier it is.
NN (20:11):
Yeah. For both people. For both people.
AJV (20:13):
Yeah. I love that. All right. Now, now referrals, which I think in my opinion, most people just don’t do why they don’t do it is beyond me. ’cause I do it all. I do it way too much. I’m on the other end of the spectrum, but it’s like, I think people don’t know how to do it. So what I would love for you is to like, what’s the best way for people to go about getting referrals from their clients? Because I think that everyone knows that in theory they should be doing it, and yet they don’t. Yeah.
NN (20:44):
I think part step one is to really just in your d n A and in the company’s d n a, be comfortable and set that expectation and almost that mindset that our clients are gonna love us so freaking much, they’re gonna refer other people. And that this is a community where people just wanna bring their folks into. And you have to start there because I think so often, you know, business owners, you have so much going on. I’ve had early in my business, I obviously forgot to even retain my clients, let alone I stopped marketing. And I’ve been in marketing for like decades, and I like forgot to market while I was delivering. I just stopped marketing. So when you just forget, things go out of your mind. And so you wanna just put it back in there and set it as an expectation. Like, we get client referrals, our clients refer us.
NN (21:30):
And again, that’s a conversation that you can honestly start in the marketing. Like you, you can say things like, we’re so ex we’re so excited for you to join this community, and we wanna make sure that it’s such an amazing experience that you’re bringing your friends in. We want this to feel like a family. We want this to feel like a community. We want the, like you just talk about it. Yeah. And so you set that expectation of referrals from the beginning so that when you talk to your clients about it, it’s not weird, right? Yeah. Like
NN (22:15):
Some people have Facebook groups. So you can say things like, Hey, who is somebody who, you know, would get a lot of value out of our programming? Invite them into the Facebook group. Hey, we’re doing a challenge. Who can you share this with? Oh, the challenge is over, but we have the replays on a page. Mm-Hmm.
NN (23:01):
I I, I was like, I don’t know what I do.
NN (23:45):
Like if you are I’m gonna just weight loss and
AJV (24:49):
Totally, totally agree. And I think if people would simplify it, they would have more confidence in asking. But I’m actually so glad you brought up B N I, I don’t even know if B N I still exists, but if it does y’all should look it up. I should look it up. But if it does, if you feel really uncomfortable with this part of your business, that is a great place to like force yourself to learn and practice because everyone is voluntarily signing up and paying to be a part of a group where we’re doing this together. And I remember I was a part of it a really long time, and it was like, it’s, it’s like Toastmasters to me where it’s like you go to Toastmasters, if you’ve ever heard of that, to practice public speaking in a safe environment, right? It’s like the circle of trust.
AJV (25:37):
You can be really bad at this in here so that you get better for out there. I feel like that’s how b n I is for asking for referrals. And it creates a, a forced environment where everyone has to stand up and you practice and then it gets a little easier and you practice them more and it gets a little easier because everyone is doing it together. So I don’t know if that still exists, but it was so good for me in my early business years to give me the accountability and a safe arena of going, I can suck at this. It’s okay, because everyone’s like, it’s okay. Just keep going
AJV (26:28):
And it’s, it’s like, I, I just remember I was doing a volunteer volunteer, but a complimentary like mastermind for my girlfriend who runs this sales mastermind, and she wanted me to come in and talk, talk about asking for referrals, and I was like, yeah, can do that. And a part of my surprise training is lots of role play. And it’s like, I can only teach you so much until we’re just gonna need to do it together. So this lady volunteered and she didn’t know she was volunteering for role play. And as you were talking, it made me think like this, my mind immediately went here is I said, all right, now I need you to ask me for a referral. So just do whatever you normally do. And she goes, well I am looking to talk to anyone who wants to experience I think she said rapid weight loss. I think it was rapid. And I paused and I said,
NN (27:18):
I
AJV (27:18):
Know lots of people like, who doesn’t wanna experience rapid weight loss? Like, and she was like, well, who are they? I’m like, but I don’t know which one is good for you. Like who? Exactly. It’s like my mind goes everywhere versus if you go, no, I’m looking for a woman in their forties to fifties who has struggled with you know, obesity for most of her adult life who’s tried every diet under the planet and cannot seem to lose the weight. Maybe there’s a medical issue maybe there’s a mental issue, but it is the person who has chronic obesity that does not know what to do. And they tried to solve this for decades, then I was like, I know two people, right? And it’s like, but that, that’s our work to do. That’s not our client’s job. That’s our job. So my question back to you is for everyone listening, what should people do to get that clear? Like what, what work or exercises do they need to do to go, all right, now I know who, so now I can go ask.
NN (28:18):
Yeah, I mean, if you already have clients, the first thing I would do is sit down and go, who are the clients that you love working with that are getting results? Like you’re actually helping them? And that if you could clone them, you would Right? And then get really clear on why, why is that person so clone? What were the qualities about them? Was it where they are before or where they were before they started working with you? Is it their age? Is it the size of their business? You know, what is it that made them so magical that you’d want to clone them? And if you are just getting started and you don’t have clients yet, the cool thing is, is that you’re kind of making it up. So it’s really a hypothesis. And you’re saying you wanna be really specific. Oftentimes when people are getting started, you’re like, oh, I just want people, so I’ll take anybody.
NN (29:07):
But the more specific you can be with your educated guess hypothesis where you’re like, who do you think you can help? If it’s someone who is just like you, then describe yourself before you solve the problem that you’re helping them solve, right? If it’s someone like a client that you had when you worked in another job and it’s similar, then describe that company or person, right? But you wanna come up with a hypothesis that’s really clear and detailed. You don’t need to know like that they’ve lived in a specific spot or, or certain things, unless you have a local business, but you want something so that someone can go, ah, I know exactly who you’re talking about, because I could picture that person in my mind.
AJV (29:47):
I love that. It’s so good. And again, it’s like, in my opinion, the key to growing your business or really scaling your business, not just growing it without adding expenses, is you gotta learn to be a master of getting referrals. Yes. I mean, that’s the cheapest, fastest, most awesome way to grow your business because it’s the quickest turnaround time and you’ve got internal advocates selling on your behalf, which are your existing clients. What better way to do that? Yeah. so all right, well I know that we’re
NN (30:58):
Yeah. So if you wanna double your business, the first thing that I would say that a visionary c e o needs to be focused on, and this is really whether you have a big team or a small team or no team, you have to be clear on where the business is going, right? Like we just listed out a ton of ideas in a ton of ways, right? Which are you going to focus on? Are you gonna focus on selling more to your existing clients? Are you gonna focus on client referrals? Are you gonna focus on you know, having clients stay longer and retaining them? Are you gonna focus on bringing in new clients? Because maybe you don’t have a large existing client pool, but you have to choose the path
NN (31:41):
And that level of clarity is so important for every person that touches your business. Even if it’s a volunteer, a va, you know, your child who’s helping you with social media or a big team. But you wanna have crystal clear clarity on where the business is going for the next 12, you know, or 18 months and the general pathway that you’re using to get there. Or if you have a a definite plan, then the plan to get there at knowing that it may have to shift and adjust as you’re implementing. But that’s number one, if you don’t have clarity on where you’re going and the direction that you’re going in, like how you’re getting there, you’ll end up just trying everything under the sun and not moving anywhere.
AJV (32:21):
Yeah, just even like with the three things we talked about, we started with like, those are three standalone components. It’s like, don’t do all of ’em at the same time. Pick like, what’s my strategy we’re going after? Have the plan, know what, you know, it’s like, what do they say? It’s like always start with the end in mind. Yes. It’s like you gotta know where you’re headed so you can figure out the path to get there. Not that
NN (32:45):
Sleeping cubbies habit number two, it’s my favorite one,
AJV (32:48):
NN (33:11):
So
NN (34:04):
And you may really need to sit down and go, okay, where is the biggest growth opportunity coming from? Right? Is it selling a $97 program where you might need to sell thousands or millions of them to double your business? Or do you have something that’s higher ticket that you need? Fewer people, but if you can get the right people, bam, you’re doubling your business. And so you need to know who the heck you’re selling to, right? So super clear offer, super clear person, target audience for that offer. And then you need to have a really clear message and positioning for that offer so that the person knows why they need it, especially if it’s a new offer for your existing clients or if they’re staying longer, why they need to stay longer in this thing, right? Or if it’s referral, why they need to refer other people to it, like what’s in it for them. But your messaging has to be clear. And I wanna like sit with that one for a second because I think so many people are like, my thing’s not selling my thing’s, not selling it must be the thing. And oftentimes it’s the person that you are selling to still has no idea what it is that you’re selling.
AJV (35:16):
I mean, I cannot second that enough. Like I second that 1000 times. And because we both live in this industry and the business of doing what we do, I cannot tell you how often when someone tries to explain to me what they do, I go, I don’t know what that is. I don’t know what that means. And I think one of the things that I have discovered from just doing this as long as I have, is that they actually don’t know either. They haven’t done the hard work to go, this is actually the problem that what I do solves and this is how it solves it. And so they struggle to articulate it because they think it solves 10 problems and you can’t explain 10. You have to explain one. And the other thing I’ve run to, I don’t know if you run into this, is people try to start being catchy and clever and you know, trendy and cheeky instead of just being clear.
NN (36:20):
And oftentimes it’s like, oh, that sounds cool, but I still don’t know what you do. Like you need to speak to people like they are five years old. Mm-Hmm.
AJV (37:31):
That’s good. Simplify. I love
NN (37:34):
It. Simplify
AJV (37:38):
I love
NN (37:39):
That. Yeah. And then the other thing that I would say tied to the tips just because this comes up often is sometimes people think they know who their target audience is because that’s either who’s purchased from them in the past or who they have a big audience of or who they want to help. But that doesn’t necessarily mean they’re the perfect person for their offer, right? Like I have a client who has an amazing dashboard for helping entrepreneurs truly know their numbers and make decisions based off of their numbers. That stuff is way too complicated for the people that she’s been selling it to. Like they get it when she’s, they’re in her program and she’s training and developing them, but when I was at that level, I didn’t have, and I mean I looked at numbers, but not like that. This is for someone who has alar like Team
NN (38:34):
And so, so even if you’ve had some success selling something to someone, it doesn’t mean they’re the perfect person for it. So you really need to hone in on like who is truly the perfect person for this offer, right? So the offer, the person, the message, and then you really, if you wanna double your business, you need a simple strategy. What’s the game plan? Keep it super, super simple,
NN (39:22):
And the the last piece really comes down to tracking everything and being flexible with how you go about things, right? So if you sell something, if you, I’m gonna just use the, have existing clients buy more strategy. If you have an offer that you’re putting in front of clients and not a lot of people buy it, then don’t be afraid to go back to your clients and ask them, Hey, you know, I noticed only a few of you took this, took me up on this offer. The ones who did ask them why they did, the ones who didn’t ask them why they didn’t, maybe it was that you didn’t market it well to the people that are in your program. Maybe they didn’t understand the value of it. Maybe it wasn’t exactly what they needed and what they needed was something else. Bam, then offer that next time, right? Like, I think too often people give up too soon. And so the fifth way, if you really wanna double your business, it’s, you just have to keep going and keep trying and keep tweaking what it is that you’re doing. And then you’ll figure out what the formula is. There’s no perfect formula that you can have on paper before you get started. It’s a building the machine while you’re on the machine riding the machine down the road type of thing. It’s like, oh my God, build the car,
AJV (40:40):
You know, it’s so true. It’s like, yeah, it’s, it reminds me of that analogy that someone’s like being an entrepreneur is like jumping off a cliff and trying to build an airplane on your way down, right? It’s like, it’s a little bit like that. But you know what I love about every one of these, and I’m just gonna recap these for everyone. It’s, you have to have clarity on your offer, clear on who the offer is for, you gotta have a clear message on that offer. You have to have a simple strategy that you can follow, and then a way to track report and get feedback to make sure it’s working. And what I love about all of that is it’s simple, right? It does not have to be complex. We’re not trying to make it complex. We’re trying to make it usable, doable and you need to do the same thing for your clients, which is know what your offer is, know who it’s for, make sure you have clarity on the message for it. Make sure you have a way to actually go after it. And then a way to track and get feedback. And it’s, it’s one of those things where it’s like the, it feels too easy to be true and most good things in life are and we as humans overcomplicate everything because we think that in order for it to be amazing and be smart, it has to be complex when the smartest things and the best things are usually the easiest, simplest things in the world.
NN (41:54):
Absolutely.
AJV (41:56):
Nikki, this has been awesome. I know that we are out of time and it’s like I could probably spend another hour just talking, just like random strategy with you. If people want to stay in touch with you, where should they go? Yeah,
NN (42:08):
I mean, the easiest place to go is to just go to nikki nash.co. That’s my website and it links to literally anything that is right for you at this moment, whether it’s getting access to my podcast or my book or, or working with me in one of my programs. So I highly recommend just go into the website, keep it simple.
AJV (42:28):
Yeah. So everyone, it’s Nikki Nash co. And she’s got an awesome offer on her website with a free masterclass. So we’ll put that link in the show notes. And Nikki, if they wanna follow you on social media, what’s your preferred platform?
NN (42:43):
Ooh, okay. I am currently getting really into LinkedIn, so I’m gonna say hit me up on LinkedIn. It’s really easy, like once you do the whole LinkedIn and the slash in
AJV (43:02):
I’ll, I’ll grab that specific link, throw it in the show notes so everyone can go connect with you on LinkedIn check out your content and then go to Nikki nash.co. Nikki, love you. So happy that you were on the show. Everybody else stick around for the recap and I will see you next time on the influential personal brand.
Ep 419: 7 Tips for Winning a Lawsuit | Rebecca Zung Episode Recap
RV (00:02):
Well, I am sad that I have to have this discussion with you or to share this bit of content, but I’m afraid that I do. I’m afraid that this is necessary. And what we’re gonna talk about today is how to win a lawsuit, how to win in a lawsuit. The th there are, it is a reality, unfortunate reality of life that you may end up in a lawsuit. In fact, I remember one time talking to my friend and our client, Kevin, Kevin Harrington, who is one of the original sharks on Shark Tank. And Kevin said to me, he said, Rory, you’ll know you’re really starting to get to be successful when somebody sues you. And the more successful you get, the more likely it is that at some point you are going to end up in a lawsuit. And so that’s why you know, going, go back and listen to the interview that I did with Rebecca Zung on negotiating with narcissists such an, a powerful interview, such a useful and tactical interview to understand just the psyche of who these people are and how they got to be that way.
RV (01:28):
And also to, to give you some hope and some to, to have you know, some encouragement because it can be a very, very difficult situation. Also, her book, slay the Bully is out, it will be out soon if you’re just listening to this podcast. There you’re still some pre-order bonuses you can get. And some of you, if you’re listening to this later you can check, you can check it out, and she probably has some bonuses still available on her site. But we wanted to release this early so that you had a chance to still take advantage of some of her pre-order bonuses. And and she’s dynamite. She’s one of our clients. I’ve learned a ton from her. I she is the, the preeminent expert in the world on negotiating with narcissists. And so that inspired me to share something that I’ve never shared which is just in general, I’m gonna share with you seven ideas for how to win in a lawsuit.
RV (02:20):
And she wasn’t necessarily talking about lawsuits, but you know, she is a lawyer and you know, has been a, a high profile divorce attorney. And, and this does come up. And so I wanted to share with you, and I’m gonna have to do this one from a, a little bit of a, don’t ask me how I know but let’s just say that I have been involved in multiple lawsuits. And it really is for someone, if you are a mission-driven messenger, if you’re someone like that, if you’re someone who is in our audience, you listen to this show, this is a really difficult thing because you may have done everything in your power to never get in a lawsuit. You may have never thought you would be end up in a lawsuit. And yet you find yourself in one, one day, and it can be so discouraging because you’ll, you’ll be shocked at how you, you’re someone who wants to pursue the right thing.
RV (03:15):
And yet you end up in a lawsuit and it’s a very, very scary, can be a very, very scary situation. So, I’m gonna walk you through seven things that, these are seven things that I wish somebody would’ve told me, you know, kind of as an entrepreneur before I’d ever had a lawsuit. So that if I had ever gotten into one, which I have been in multiple ones now, that I would have known. Okay? And so here’s the first thing, the first thing to know, and I don’t know who said this quote, but it’s a good one, that sometimes the only way to win a fight is to not have one.
RV (03:54):
And in particular, when it comes to lawsuits, this is one where I really would encourage you to, if you can avoid it, avoid it. The only people who really win in a lawsuit are the lawyers. And I don’t, I don’t mean that in a rude way, but that’s, you know, something that people say, and I have found that to be true. And it’s, it’s not like they win and everybody loses, but, but they get paid no matter who wins and who loses, right? They typically are gonna get paid. And so they make, they make money. In some cases, this is not every lawyer, but something that you just gotta know logically is even if you’re talking to a lawyer on your side they get paid, the, the longer the lawsuit goes on, and the more time it takes, the more money they get paid, right?
RV (04:45):
So they’re, most lawyers are paid hourly, so they’re not necessarily aligned with you on an incentive basis. The incentives aren’t necessarily aligned to end things quickly because they make their money from the time that they spend. Now, I don’t, I don’t think that every lawyer nickels and dimes people and tries to like, drag it out as long as possible. I’m just saying, you gotta pay attention when you pay attention to behavior, how people, what people are incentivized to do, and lawyers, most of ’em that are paid hourly, they’re, they’re incent, they’re not incentivized to do things the fastest possible way necessarily. So be aware of that. But the other thing is, now some lawyers are paid on contingency, meaning it’s basically like commission where they get a percentage of a settlement or the percentage of, of, you know, whatever, if you win.
RV (05:36):
And if you, if you lose, they get nothing. And, you know, that can be a very powerful very powerful person to have in, in your corner. And, and it was for us, we, we had an amazing lawyer and, and it was our, our hourly lawyers who referred us to a contingency attorney for one of the lawsuits that we were involved with, which ended up being a really, really a huge blessing in our life. And I’m, I’m so grateful to, to Doug and, and other lawyers that we’ve met along, along the way who’ve been important assets and, and advocates for us in our life. And so the, the, but the thing I wanna say here is you don’t wanna get into a lawsuit. You want to try to steer clear of it, because as you’re about to hear, it’s, it’s painful.
RV (06:24):
And it can be very, very, it’s very financially draining, right? We’ve spent lots and lots and lots of money over six figures. We, well, well, well into six figures we’ve spent on lawyers. And that is a very tough way to lose money. So if you can avoid the lawsuit, swallow your pride, apologize, right? Like, make things right, do what you can to, to stay out of it. Because sometimes the best way to win a fight is to not have one. And I, and generally speaking, this, this is the case. And when we get to number seven here, you’ll understand really why by the time we get through all of ’em, and especially number seven, you’ll, you’ll understand why. And so that’s the first thing. Try to avoid the lawsuit. The second thing, and this may be simple, but it’s worth saying, is avoid crazy people.
RV (07:17):
RV (08:20):
You might think, oh, that’s never gonna affect me because that’s not me. And I wanna tell you that that would, is a naive way to think that when people are engaged in wild living, whatever your version is of that, I’m telling you that proximity is power, just like proximity is power, and you can get drawn into good things. You get drawn into the drama of the people around you as well. And you can be a completely innocent bystander to some choices that people make in their personal life that suddenly overtake you, that, that because you work together, or they’re your customer, or you’re their customer, or they’re your vendor, or you’re their vendor, or you are their business partner, they’re your business partner, or like you’re, you know, their, their spouse is wild and they’re a friend of yours, and it’s like suddenly you’re in a car together and one of ’em is driving drunk, right?
RV (09:12):
And you go like, whoa, how did I get here? And a lawsuit can be like that. You can, you can get sucked into things that really don’t have anything to do with you. And I’m not just speaking from, I’m not just necessarily talking about my experience, but my friends other entrepreneurs, people I know, you know, our clients, we, we hear and see a lot of stuff. And so you wanna try to just not be around people who engage in wild living and do wild things because they, they will pull you into what they’re into sooner or later willingly or not like it’s, there’s, there’s just, there’s a lot to be said for that. And if you have a customer who is giving you a lot of like weird signs in your sales process, don’t sell to them. This literally happened to AJ and I, I mean, this has happened multiple times where we will fire a client.
RV (10:03):
And this happened to us recently where there was some language that a client was using with us early in the relationship, and we’re like, you know what? We’re not gonna do this. We’re we’re we, we we’re deciding that we’re not gonna work with this person, and we unwind it because it’s not worth getting involved with people who are super high drama, that have absolutely outrageous, unrealistic expectations who lose their temper, people who fly off the handle, people who are doing crazy stuff in their personal life. It’s like to, to, to the extent that you can try to stay away from crazy try to stay away from dramatic, try to stay away from unreasonable and, and try to stay away from just like outlandish, exotic, like, you know, I, I just use the, the biblical term wild living because you get caught up in that, even if, if you don’t mean to.
RV (11:05):
So that’s the second thing. The third thing, and this is something I really, the, this is one of the most tactical pieces of advice I wish somebody would’ve told me. When I, when I, they, they say, Roy, you’re gonna be an entrepreneur. You’re gonna be in a lawsuit at some point. Don’t read the lawyer letters. Don’t read the lawyer letters. So here’s what happens in a lawsuit. You know, you get, once you get to the point of like hiring letters, these lawyers before they get to court, a huge part of the negotiation is trying to generate emotion and get you off and angry and scared and like frustrated. And because they know that the more emotion they steer up in you, the more likely you are to acquiesce to their terms, right? So if somebody can make your life, it’s, pardon my language, if someone can make your life a living hell, they know by doing that, that you are gonna be more likely to wanna just end it quickly or to surrender, or to give up, or to give in, or to quit.
RV (12:18):
And so a huge part of, of the letter writing that happens back and forth, it is nothing to do with truth. It has everything to do with getting you off in emotion. And they will lie. And, and this is something that has been very sad for me. I’ve been involved with situations where I could not imagine people that would lie, lie through their teeth, blatantly lie. And they will do it just to, to get their way to win at all costs, to take advantage of you. And one of the things they’ll do, and a and, and a lot of times what people will do if they’re, if they’re skilled in, in legal battles, they will hire the nastiest, scariest letter writing attorneys, and they will, they will hire them for the skillset of being able to intimidate you and scare you and threaten you and twist the truth.
RV (13:21):
And, you know, those, those letters are not like part of evidence. They’re not like things that get ad ad admiss, they’re not like admissible in court, but this is what the, this is how it works. And so when they send a letter and you read it, you think that what this is, is a matter of, of settling what is the fair thing? And it’s not that, right? If, if you are somebody who is a naive, heart-centered, service centered, mission-driven messenger and believe me, that is me. I operate from a sense of altruism and a sense of service and kindness and, and believing that if I treat people nicely, it’ll come back to me. And that’s worked really, really well. But it is also a place where I’ve had to learn a hard lesson that people will, they will play on that, and they will threaten you, and they will lie, and they will, they will twist the truth to make you feel like you are the person who has done something wrong.
RV (14:21):
And they do that as a negotiation tactic. And so part of what, part of why you need to have a lawyer is so that you don’t waste your time reading the letters, because the letters don’t have to be factual whatsoever. And so related to that, I would say don’t take things personal. This is part of number three is like once you’re, if once you’re into a loy a a legal situation, don’t take things personal because they’re trying to make it personal. They’re trying to get a rise out of you because they, they want, they want you to want to resolve the situation. They want you to want to acquiesce, they want you to want to surrender. And so the more objective and logical and, and unemotional and even keeled, you can remain the better off you’re gonna be just mentally and emotionally. And again, that’s why it’s like, if you can, if you can avoid a lawsuit, avoid the lawsuit altogether.
RV (15:19):
So the, that’s number three. Don’t read, don’t read the letters and don’t take things personal. Number four is keep meticulous documentation, keep meticulous documentation. Now, before a lawsuit, what happens is it’s all hot air
RV (16:20):
Number five is to build a timeline. Number five is to build a timeline. This is, this is a little bit of advice that somebody gave me that seemed really silly at first when I, when, when, when I first was involved in a lawsuit. As they said, keep a timeline of events, because usually it takes a long time to get into court, sometimes years and years and years. And the details will become fuzzy about how things happened and when they happened, and why they happened and, and what happened exactly. And you know, when you get to a court, it’s all about having your details tight. It’s all about having a clear story and having evidence and documentation that supports it. Well, even a very honest person can lose sight of the actual facts of like, wait, what, when was that? Did that happen first?
RV (17:08):
Or did that happen first? And wait, when, when did that, and who actually said that? Like, so keep a timeline of dates and, and descriptions. The moment you realize things are turning south with, with a relationship, and you go, Hey, this might be heading towards a lawsuit, or this, this is starting to head towards getting lawyers involved. Build a timeline. And, and or, and if you’re in one, now, go backwards and reconstruct a timeline of exactly what happened. Because even as you can, as you can keep a documentation of the timeline of events, it’ll help you remember important details that you forgot. And it’ll help you corroborate things. And so build a, build a timeline because it also will help you refute things when the other side is intimidating you and scaring you. And, you know, blowing hot air and like doing all these things.
RV (18:01):
When you have a timeline, you go, Hey, if we ever get into court, even, even though they’re saying nasty things in the letter, and you know, that’s why I say don’t read it. ’cause It’s like, it’s not at all about being factual. It’s, it’s just about getting you emotional. But when we get into court, you go, yeah, I’m not gonna be worried about that because I can prove it because this happened, this happened, this happened, and then I can document all of it, right? So keep meticulous documentation. And part of that is building a timeline that relates. And, and when I say meticulous documentation, you know this ties into number six. Have contracts, have contracts, have dates. Keep your contracts, keep your email threads. If you start to think that something is heading towards a lawsuit, then go do the work now of going back and extrapolating all of the email correspondence and keeping all of the written correspondence.
RV (18:54):
And this is the other thing, get people to commit what they’re saying to writing. Because I’ll, again, don’t ask me how I know, but there are people who will make promises to you and promises to you and promises to you through the spoken word, and then they will never write it down. They will never, because they can say whatever you, whatever they want, they can tell you, you know, this is while you’re working together or, you know, whatever, like, whatever the situation is of your relationship, they can, they can make you all sorts of promises. They can tell you all sorts of great things and, and they can make you think they would never not follow through. But I’m telling you, this has not only happened to me personally, where they have said something, I’ve completely believed it, and then they flat out lied, completely lied in a court of law, they’ve lied.
RV (19:47):
People will do this, right? And I’m not, I’m not referencing any specific case or anything here. I’m just saying in general that this will happen. I, the lawyers, lawyer, friends that I have, they tell me, they go, Rory, that happens all the time. People get into court and they lie. That’s what they, they they do hand, you know, they swear oath on the Bible, and then they lie. They, because, because for some people it doesn’t, it’s not about, it’s not about right and wrong, it’s just about winning and losing. And that is really sad. But it’s true. And you, and I’m telling you, it’ll be, it’ll be people you never, ever thought, and it will, it’ll be people who, you know, looked you in the eye and promised you this and that, that they swore up and down they could be counted on. And so get it committed and writing, get it documented.
RV (20:37):
If you can get it in an agreement, if you can’t get it in an agreement, get it in a written email get it in an, an employee handbook. Get it, get something that says, like, like, Hey, here’s the documentation of when they told me this. And, and I will tell you if somebody is making promises to you, but they, they delay and kick the can on getting it writing, that’s a red flag, a major red flag that they’ll make promises to you, but they won’t commit it to writing because that’s, they know they can be held to that. So that is something that is a red flag. Now, I do believe, you know, this is, you know, something that Dave Ramsey said, which I, I, I agree with him, and I, I, I agree and I disagree. What I agree with is, is he said one time he said, if I can’t trust, if I can’t trust the person’s handshake, then the contract doesn’t matter anyway.
RV (21:30):
And I do agree with that, right? If I can’t, if I can’t trust their handshake, if they’re gonna screw me, they’re gonna screw me, whether it’s in writing or not. The difference is if I think I can trust their handshake, and it turns out that they’re willing to lie and they’re willing to compromise their integrity later, the fact that I have it in writing means even if they’re gonna try to take advantage of me, I have a real strong negotiating basis. Whereas if it’s just the spoken word, I do not because it’s my word against theirs. And nobody really, you can never really prove that. And in certain places, you know, even recordings aren’t admissible into court. You know, there’s certain circumstances where they are and they are not. But so keep meticulous documentation, you know, that’s number four. Build a timeline, number five, number six, get it in writing and written contracts.
RV (22:19):
And here’s something else that I’ve learned about lawsuits. Your interpretation of written contracts is pretty much as good as any
RV (23:12):
And they’re, and then they read it and they go, no, I, I think I feel the same way as you. I when I read it, I think the same way. And I’m going, well, why is it written in such crazy language? Right? So one of the things that we’ve tried to do is, is a part of attempting to avoid lawsuits, right? We don’t ever want to have to sue anyone. We certainly don’t wanna be sued. But we don’t wanna have to sue people. And we go, we just write that, we write our agreements in plain English so that the goal is not to trick someone. It’s not, at least for us, right? The goal is not to take advantage of somebody. It’s like to lay out on paper and your, if you can’t understand it, then don’t sign it Like it should. It should be straightforward.
RV (23:51):
Don’t think that, oh, it has to have fancy legalese in order to be enforceable. Not at all. Your interpretation of it is as good as anyone’s. And if you can’t understand it, you shouldn’t sign it. And so that is really, really important. And, and you should, you gotta get things in writing and have a copy of it. Because if not, that’s just a sign that like you guys aren’t on the same page, or you’re dealing with someone who is maybe not super honest and they don’t really have every intention of following through on their word. And that happens a lot. Like if they can’t show you the detail, if they can’t, if, if, if, if they, if, if they get dodgy in any way around, like, you know, hey, we’re negotiating a contract of some type, like we gotta get this thing in writing.
RV (24:37):
Like, what if, if it’s an agreement, what are we, what is there to hide? There shouldn’t be anything to hide, but just, just beware of that and, and get it in writing. And then, you know, number seven, and, and this is the part that’s most heartbreaking to me, and I hate having to share this, but if, you know, again, I’ve been involved in multiple lawsuits. I’ve been on the board of organizations that have been involved with lawsuits. I have lots of friends who have been involved in, in lawsuits or, you know, been in lawsuits. And when I say lawsuits, it’s like, you know, sometimes it goes to court, sometimes it gets settled and resolved. Sometimes it’s just a bunch of threatening lawyers back and forth. And, you know, it comes to some agreement. You know, sometimes it’s just nasty people saying, if you don’t do this, I’ll then I’ll, you know, take action.
RV (25:24):
But all of those things, unfortunately, what I have found is that it’s not really about justice. It’s often the, the, the person who wins is often not the person who is right. It’s often not the person who is ethical. Unfortunately, the person who wins typically is the person who has the most money and who has the longest timeline. Because if you have a lot of money and you can pay a lot of lawyer fees, you can scare people, you can intimidate them, and you also can drag things out. You can appeal things. You, you, you can delay things and understand this, that there is a playbook that some people will run against you. And that playbook is to drain your bank account to where you are forced to acquiesce to terms that are terms that, that are less than favorable for you. And it is one of the most heartbreaking things I’ve ever experienced to, to see, you know, to be involved with people that you trust and that you think are good people, but to then watch these scenarios where there is a playbook that they’re running just meant to drain the other side of cash.
RV (26:51):
And this happened. And, and, you know, here’s another thing you should do. You should watch Suits. I know this is silly, but if you’re involved in a lawsuit, you should watch the, the TV series, it’s called Suits. It’s an amazing show. It’s really, really a, a, a fun show. But if you are new to lawsuit, you’ve never been sued or you’ve never sued someone, and you fi you find yourself where you have to, you should watch that show because it teaches you a lot of just how it works. And you see like, oh, nobody is actually interested in figuring out what’s the right thing to do. No one is really interested in fairness, it’s just about winning. And it is really, I, I hate to paint such a sad picture of humanity, but that is how it often gets to, and that’s why it’s like, if you can avoid the lawsuit on the front end, do it.
RV (27:43):
Because by the time you get into a lawsuit, it’s like people abandon all ethics, all morals, all decency, all you know, human dignity, all respect, honesty, integrity, those things go out the window quickly. And the name of winning and the name of, you know, taking you to the house and the, and, and, and being right, and being the victor and having power over you. And it is sad, and I’m, you know, I’m hating to to say it, and I’m, this is not just these things I’m sharing with you are not just from one episode in my life. These are from having multiple episodes multiple experiences, some more involved and more painful than others, but witnessing, witnessing them. We have clients at Brand Builders Group who, you know, we, we’ve had, we’ve had four clients that are billionaires, like in the last year and a half or something like four with B billionaires.
RV (28:37):
We have lots of clients that are worth hundreds of millions of dollars. We’re around a lot of wealthy people, and many of them have lawyers on staff and on retainer for nothing other than fighting off frivolous lawsuits, right? Because they’re, they’re so wealthy. And that’s like, I mean, man, you know, on the one hand it’s like, must be nice to be that wealthy. On the other hand, it’s more money, more problems, you know, and people are just suing you for, for insane stuff. And sometimes people pretend to sue you just so that you’ll settle, just so you’ll go it away. So it’ll go away because it’s cheaper to settle the, the matter than to take it into court and pay all the lawyer fees. So this is, it’s, it’s, it’s really sad. Like, and so that’s why it’s like the best thing you can do is avoid this and, and, and avoid people who seem litigious and that, you know, wanna get involved in these, these kinds of things. And I would say, you know, being around people who are narcissistic in nature or in tendency, those are risky ones because like you heard on the interview, or if you didn’t go listen to the interview with Rebecca,
RV (29:41):
They’re very serious about just demonstrating their power over you, their control over you. And in, in many cases, it’s even more about that than money. They want to own you. They want to defeat you. They want to, in a way, it’s like they want to kill you, even though they may not want to physically kill you. It’s like they want to see you cry, they want to see you squirm, they want to destroy you, they want to destroy your reputation. And it’s like, it’s not actually about who was right or what is fair, or even what the law says. It’s really about who has the ability to persevere longer. And a lot of that has to do with how long can you be peaceful? How long, you know, like, how long can you handle all these nasty lawyer letters and not get upset? It’s also how long can you be peaceful knowing that you have a lawsuit going on?
RV (30:31):
Which is not it, it consumes a massive amount of stress. It creates a lot of, lot of stress. And the other one is, who has the longer financial runway, right? If someone has a financial runway, and I would say, you know, I would add this to the conversation, not only would you try not, would you try to avoid a lawsuit? I mean, of try to avoid getting into one with somebody, or being around people who might get you into one, but do the right thing yourself. Try to abide by contracts, right? If, if you make a commitment to do something, do it. Because you don’t wanna be on the receiving end of a breach of contract. It’s like, you know, it, it, it comes down. On the one hand, you would say it comes down to integrity, but unfortunately it doesn’t un unfortunately, people can sue you for anything, and they can really make your life miserable, even if you did, not only if you did nothing wrong, but even if you do everything right, they can still make your life miserable.
RV (31:24):
And so a lot of it just comes down to the people and treating people with kindness and treating people with respect. And I would say this too, like, the more that you, the harder you punch, you know, it’s typically the, the harder they’re gonna punch back. Like, if you get into a lawsuit, it quickly spirals outta control. And that’s why it’s like, I think the strategy is to neutralize, right? Like neutralize, neutralize, neutralize to the best you can. But I, I’ve been a part of multiple scenarios where it was like I was doing everything that I could to neutralize it to not to, to, to go, here’s, here’s how this could go down very amicably. Here’s how we could end this quickly. And sometimes people didn’t want to. They want to bury you, they want you to hurt. And and many times they’re willing to do whatever.
RV (32:16):
And I know that’s not a great picture of humanity, but that’s where it’s like, you wanna stay out of this if you can. But if you can’t and you get involved, try to stay logical. Try to neutralize and keep documentation and you, you know, build the timeline, get the contracts in writing, keep your email threads, go back and audit that. And you know, I I, I’ll say the other thing is, is be nice and be nice, even, even when they’re being mean to you. Be nice. Because if you end up going to discovery and this has happened to me before, where they can, they can make claims that you’re saying all these nasty things. If you go into discovery, the court can, can say, give me your phone, give me your email accounts, give me your bank accounts. And they get to audit all of them.
RV (33:09):
And that has happened to us. And we’ve been in a scenario where, where somebody swore up and down that we were doing some things and saying certain things, and that happened. They got to go through all of our email, our financial records, our phone accounts, and it, it sure served us well when they came up completely empty. There was no cussing, there was no, you know, there was, we weren’t doing the things they were saying. We weren’t, we weren’t saying nasty things about them. And you know, for them to be left empty handed shows a lot about our character. And, you know, that was important to us just ’cause it’s the right thing to do, but it also can play really, really well, right? So you certainly don’t wanna be firing off nasty emails about people to them, or even internally to your friends and your family, or, you know, other people in the company like that will come back on you.
RV (34:01):
And so those are some things. Those are seven ideas for how to win a lawsuit, you know? And namely by winning, we’re saying, try not to have it and try not to get wrapped up in it. And so I do think ultimately kindness and treating people and integrity is the best strategy on the front end. And then, you know, once you get involved, you know, you’re trying, if you, if you get sucked into it, and in multiple cases, we’ve been pulled into it where it’s like, you know, we were either a innocent kind of third party that got pulled into something or somebody came after us. And you know, I do believe where it’s like the truth will set you free in every scenario, the truth has set us free. And one of my biggest philosophies in life is to live a life that stands up to the scrutiny of transparency to go, if someone did audit everything, and they did, they did get access to look at your phone records and your email and all of your text messages and your, where you’re spending your money to go.
RV (35:08):
I’m not willingly gonna turn that over to somebody just because I don’t want to and ’cause it’s private. But that if somebody did, you go, I have nothing to hide, right? Like, go ahead and look at my e go ahead and look at my internet browsing history. Go ahead and look at my bank account. Like, go ahead and follow, you know, put a private investigator and follow me around. You’re gonna see that I’m an honest person. I’m not taking advantage of people. But that doesn’t mean people won’t try to take advantage of you. It doesn’t mean they won’t lie. It doesn’t mean they won’t say horrible, horrible things to get you, you know, fired up. It doesn’t mean that they won’t waste their money just to try to get you to burn out all of yours. So try to stay out of it. Try to, you know, try to avoid the fight, try to try to be around good and kind people, keep great documentation, build a timeline, get it in writing, and then ultimately realize it’s not about justice.
RV (36:01):
That’s, it’s often about, you know, who can, who can, who can last the marathon without going crazy or going broke. And if you do that, you, you’ll ultimately, you’ll get there. And I do ultimately believe the truth will, will set you free. So not the most uplifting content I know, but boy, if you know someone who is in a lawsuit or is being threatened by one, I think it would be good to, to share this with them. I certainly wish that I would’ve had something like this in the times that myself or organizations I’ve been a part of or my friends other entrepreneurs have been involved in lawsuits. Because having the perspective of someone who’s been through one that can really be helpful, even, even though a lot of times they can’t share specific details, because a lot of times lawsuits end up getting resolved with confidentiality clauses and things like that.
RV (36:56):
But somebody can sure give you a lot of perspective. And that helps me too. I’ve, part of how I know a lot of this is, I’ve talked to a lot of people who’ve been in a lot of lawsuits, and it’s good to have their perspective to that. For many of ’em, they go, yeah, lawsuits is a part of business and a part of life, and you, you learn to be desensitized to it. Which, you know, again, isn’t the most beautiful thing, but you go, it’s kinda like, you know, paying your taxes or something, you go, yeah, I don’t love it, but I gotta do it and I gotta deal with it. And it’s a, it’s a, it becomes a piece of the business, you know, that you just, you do. So try to be nice to people, do everything you can, but, but I, I think the thing also that I want you to know is that if you find yourself sucked up into a lawsuit, it doesn’t mean you’re a bad person.
RV (37:45):
Sometimes people are literally thinking that they can take advantage of you because they, there’s a lot of people who will assume your kindness is weakness, and kindness is not weakness. Kindness is incredible strength. And the people who have misunderstood our kindness as weakness you know, it, it, it ended up costing them, you know, a a, it, it was a misinterpretation right to go. Kindness and weakness are not the same thing. Kindness and strength are the same thing. And, you know, you can get sucked into this. You can be a perfectly honest, hardworking, ethical, kind human and still find yourself unexpectedly in a lawsuit. And people can be trying to just take advantage of you and trying to hurt you even when you did everything by the agreement and by what is right. So don’t take that personal either, ’cause that can weigh heavily on you of like, gosh, there must be something wrong with me.
RV (38:54):
And, you know, if you listen to the other side, there’s probably a good chance they’re gonna try to make you feel that way. They’re gonna play into that. So you can be a good person and you can step through a lawsuit in an honest, ethical fashion. You can let the facts surface for themselves. Just don’t get caught up in firing off the hate and making the threats and doing those things that will just spiral outta control and it’ll make it more expensive and more time consuming, which makes it even more expensive.