Ep 406: Turning Your Story Into A Message with Damon West
AJV (00:02):
Hey, y’all, and welcome to the Influential Personal Brand podcast. This is AJ Vaden to hear AJ Vaden here. And I am joined today with a newer friend, ab, but a friend who has lots of mutual friends with myself and Rory. So, so glad to be adding Damon West to our list of amazing guests on this podcast, but also a new friend in our, you know, circle. So before I start this interview, I want to remind everyone, as I always do, why you should stick around and who this podcast was uniquely designed for. So, number one, if you have a desire to write and publish books, speak on stages, and get your message out into the world, which should be most of you, which is why you listen to this podcast. This is an episode that you wanna listen to because we’re gonna talk about how Damon went from, you know football player, college football to prison, to author, speaker on stages, and a lot of things in between there.
AJV (01:05):
But ultimately, it’s like, it does not matter where you are today. If you have that desire on your heart, there is a way to make all of the things of your past a part of this story that leads you to where you wanna be. And so we’re gonna delve into that. We’re also gonna talk about just how do you do that? Like, how do you get outta prison and go, I’m gonna change my life. I’m gonna do something different. I’m gonna make different choices. And they’re big and they’re bold, and they’re not what I expected. And I know a lot of people in our community are entering into new phases of their life, and perhaps it’s not that dramatic, right? That transformative, but to some degree, we’re starting over. It’s a new time on our life, whether it’s we’ve sold a business, starting a new business, we’re leaving a company trying to go out on our own.
AJV (01:50):
We’re trying to take this side hustle. We’ve been doing it and making it our full-time thing. Or maybe you’re just stepping out on a limb for the first time going, man, I want to do this, but I am scared now. This is hard and new, and what am I doing? Like, what am I crazy? So it doesn’t matter where you fall within that spectrum, this is a podcast that is gonna be uniquely inspiring and informative to you. So I encourage you to stick around. So now I could give you a whole bunch of background bio. I mentioned a little bit of it, but as I formally introduced Damon here are just f to me. Here’s a couple of things that I think would be really powerful for you to know. Is one yes, he did go to prison. I think you should know, like, this is someone who, when they talk about setbacks, when they talk about, oh yeah, I made some bad choices. Like this led to some pretty severe consequences. And it was in prison for a few years, so it’s not like, you know, three days in a white collar, you know, prison upstate, right? It’s a different type. And I think that’s really important for us to get. It’s like, regardless of how bad you think your situation is, or, oh, I can’t change from now. Like, well, no, that’s not true. He is the author of now three books or four,
DW (03:06):
Well, four in a children’s book. So yeah, four four in a children’s book. Yeah. So
AJV (03:11):
The list is growing even as we speak. Yeah. But also he’s been on stages all across the country. He is a, well, you know, well sought after speaker. He is a multi-time author and also an entrepreneur. So everyone who is listens to this, you’ve got some degree of some of those things within you. And so I know, I know that you’re gonna love this interview. So Damon, welcome, welcome to the show,
DW (03:35):
Aj. Thanks a lot, so much. I mean, you covered so much in that introduction too, but look, it’s, it’s so exciting to be here. Like you said, we do have a lot of mutual friends, Amber Lee, ed Mullet, you know, ed Ed’s a very big mutual friend of mine, John Gordon, Catherine Gordon. So it’s great to finally meet you and, and be a part of your show because I’ve got a lot to say about what we’re gonna talk about today, about building your brand and, and how do you make it, how do you break away from the pack and chase your dreams in life? Because like you said, I had to do it. I mean, and like, and you hit the nail in the head. It’s not like I went to prison for a couple years. I got sentenced to life in prison in Dallas, Texas, and I spent seven years and three months of that life sentence in a maximum security level five prison in the state of Texas. The highest security level there is, or the worst of the worst go. And then I made parole, I made parole, and I’m on parole AJ until the year 2073. Hmm. So when you talk about making plans and having to follow the rules of your plan every single day, I got, I got a lot to say about that.
AJV (04:36):
Yeah. Well, I mean, and that’s a part of what I kind of wanna just start, start with. And I know people are gonna be like are you gonna give us more of that story? Because Yeah. In the world. And so here’s my first question for you. It’s like you have this amazing journey from successful college athlete to prison inmate to motivational speaker and ler. And that’s quite the remarkable journey in your short 47 years. So can you just share with the listeners who maybe are getting introduced to you for the first time, what are some of those pivotal moments or mindset shifts that allowed you to transform? Right. And I, and I would say too, it’s like maybe in some of the not so awesome ways, right? Because I know that there was an accident during your football days and yeah. That led to choices that were transformative to the more positive transformative. So what were these moments that happened in your life that led to such an influential personal brand today?
DW (05:36):
Yeah. I think that the way to start this off is by, you know, I tell people all the time that at no point in my life did, did God just reached out with his hand hand one day and put his hand on my head and said, Damon, you’re healed
DW (06:18):
But I was a very functional addict. And I graduated college, went to work in the United States Congress, worked on Wall Street. I was a broker for UBS when I was introduced to meth for the first time. And I say that there’s been people put in my life because the choices that we make in life are gonna take us down different roads. And as you alluded to, some roads are good, some roads are bad, but there’s always gonna be messengers along the way on those roads to help guide you where you need to be. But the trick is, you have to be receptive to all those messengers. And sometimes when we’re not in the right space, we don’t, we’re not receptive. We can’t hear or see the messenger in front of us. And I made a lot of wrong turns, again, with that fork in the road.
DW (06:57):
When I tried meth for the first time in 2004, 18 months after their first hit of meth, I was living on the streets of Dallas and I became a criminal. I started breaking into people’s houses to fund my addiction. And and the Dallas SWAT team got me in 2008 and they, they arrested me in this traumatic SWAT team raid. And they took me to Dallas County Jail. And then a year later I was sentenced to life in prison. My mother and my father had this conversation with me. They, they right after I’m sentenced to life, they, they let my parents talk to me for five minutes, just kind of on the side of the courtroom. And my mom was reminded me about how they raised me, how, you know, the stuff they heard in the courtroom isn’t the man they raised. In fact, she tells me, when you go to prison, you, you won’t get in one of these gangs.
DW (07:39):
She said, you come back as the man we raised or don’t come back to us at all. So now I’ve got this giant ultimatum and I don’t know how I’m gonna do it, AJ cuz I’ve never been to prison before. I don’t know anything about prison. And I’m in this Dallas County jail complex for the next two months before the prison bus comes to get me. And I have this encounter with one of those people that I would call the messengers in life that’s an old black man named Mr. Jackson. Mr. Jackson shares with me what prison’s gonna be like. And he’s telling me about the violence I’m gonna endure the first couple months. But he tells me things like, you don’t have to win all your fights, you just have to fight all your fights. You know, and that’s true in life. No one counts your wins and losses, but everybody kind of watches the seat as he or she get back up.
DW (08:19):
And that’s what he’s telling me, get back up. But he, but he tells me this, he says, let me break it down from your different way. And that’s when he tells me, he said, I want you to imagine prison as a pot of wine, water. And he said, you have three choices of how you’re gonna respond to this pot of wine water. You can be like the carrot that turns soft, the egg that becomes hard in the boil water, or a coffee bean, which changes the pot of wine water into a pot of coffee. Hmm. And that a agent, when he told me the story about the coffee bean, I remember, I was like, I can understand that. And that’s the way people’s reactions are five to 95 years old when they hear about the coffee bean for the first time. Because you can wrap your brain around those three choices.
DW (08:55):
Mm-Hmm. So Mr. Jackson is one of those people that I met in life that guided me. He was a mentor. Cuz we all need mentors, aj, everybody needs coaches. We all have to have coaches in life. But as I went through prison, I ran into other people in there. There was my, my first cellmate Carlos, you know, Carlos was explaining to me about thinking how your thinking is everything. Your thoughts control your actions, and if you have the wrong thoughts, you can’t have the right actions. And, and so he helped me with the way I think. And a, as I got through the prison process and I started transforming myself in that prison to a pot of a pot of coffee. The parole board came and took notice and they allowed me to leave prison early on parole. Now, as I said, I’m on parole for the rest of my life, but since I got outta prison in 2015, I’ve ran into these other messengers in life because now I’m hyper aware of the roads that I’m on.
DW (09:41):
And I’m looking for those messenger every day. But I’m gonna tell you something, aj, the main thing I’m looking for every day is how do I serve other people? Because that’s like what I pray for every day, aj. I just, man, I just wanna know two things every day from God put in front of me what you need me to do today for you, and let me recognize it when I see it cuz I don’t wanna miss whatever that is. And that’s like the first key to everything else you’re gonna open in life is that the secret to life is serving other people. How do I serve others? Mm.
AJV (10:11):
That’s so good. And you know, it’s so interesting. I have a friend right now who’s really suffering from addiction. And we just had a conversation this past weekend about choices, right? There are defining choices. And then there’s daily choices, right? We have these daily decisions we have to make and we have these defining choices that we have to make. And those daily decisions turn into habits, right? Which could be good or bad. And these defining ones are the ones that can send us down one of these roads and that every, and I love what you said, like every road has, you know, messengers alongside the road. And it sounds like to me it’s like prison saved you.
DW (10:51):
It did. Yeah. It was, was getting a life sentence on top, not just prison, but being sentenced to life in prison. Aj my, my angels in life, my angels didn’t have wings. My angels had a assault rifle. They had shields, they had helmets. They, they came through the window, they busted outta my door. They were a SWAT team. Mm-Hmm.
DW (11:36):
And, and there’s many different levels of adversity and there’s a lot of different ways to be in prison. Aj mm-hmm.
DW (12:15):
But it took some serious adversity in my life to make me get off this comfort zone that I’ve been in in life, even when I was in, on drugs and, and, and in my addiction. There’s a comfort zone that people get into. Misery is a very comfortable place too. And your friend that’s going through that right now, you’re right. It’s the daily choice every day that you have to make to change these, to make these good habits. And whenever I was in prison and my back was against the wall and I just surrendered because that’s one of the keys to all this. You gotta surrender this idea of control over things you do not control. Once I surrendered that, I started, I was able to work on myself and, and look, yeah, you’re right. Prison did save my life. And one of the things I talk about with people all the time is that, especially people that wanna get up there and speak or write books, is that, and, and Ed, my ed, ed and I talked about this when I was on his podcast, the things that you think might be the, that the disqualifiers in your life, because the things that have gone wrong, the, the places you messed up, those actually may be the great qualifiers for you to help someone else.
DW (13:16):
You know, these are the things, yeah. These, the things you think disqualify you might be the great qualifiers. Your liabilities may be your biggest asset. But how do you turn that around? How do you make that into a message that people can digest and understand?
AJV (13:30):
I mean, I would say, I think for the most part, and you know, I’ll speak for just myself, but it’s like when I listen to speakers and read books, it’s like, I think most would agree that I don’t really wanna hear about all the successful things that you’ve done
AJV (14:14):
What if that happened to me? Like what would I do? Like, would I let it grow me or would I let it destroy me? And it’s like, those are the stories that are, in my opinion, more transformative, more life giving than hearing from the person who got it right all the time. Did all the right things. Not that those are bad. It’s good to hear those stories too. But I think there’s something about that comeback story that for most people they’re like, okay, well if you did it, there’s hope for me. So here’s my question in that, because you are speaking on stages and you, you are so vulnerable with your stories and you don’t hold back, which I love and I appreciate. So here, here’s, here’s something for the audience, I think it’s like how do you incorporate those sorts of elements of your story into speaking engagements and books and even interviews like this where one, what did you have to overcome to be like, yeah, I’m, I’m just gonna be honest, right?
AJV (15:12):
I’m just going to tell you what happened. I’m gonna tell you the truth. So how do you do that one and how do you do it in a way that’s beneficial for me? Not just hearing your story, but also, you know, we always say it’s like you tell an eye focus story with a you focus message because I think you do that really well. But then also for those people who are going, yeah, that, that’s cool for you to do, but my story’s so dark, it’s never gonna see the light of day. Like what advice would you give to that person who has that story? And it really does need to be heard, but they’re afraid to share it.
DW (15:45):
Great question. And you tapped on a little bit of it just now and, and you, you talked about vulnerability. Vulnerability is a strength. Vulnerability gets a bad rap. I mean, people think of the word a lot of times people think vulnerable vulnerability means you’re weak. It’s some, it’s some form of weakness. Vulnerability’s a strength because when you’re vulnerable, you let those walls down, those guards down, you show how human you are. And like you said, that draws people in. Now someone says, Hey look, you know, that person’s been through something, I’ve been through something. Maybe there’s something they’re gonna say that’s gonna help me get through what I’m about to go through next. And here’s the deal. Everybody’s got a story out there. I i I believe that everybody’s got their personal stories of overcoming. And you said it earlier in the show, everybody, people need to hear those stories cuz we, you know, we’re all gonna relate to people in different ways.
DW (16:32):
And your story may be the one thing that helps somebody get through their worst day. So if you’re trying to figure out how to tell your story, I’ll just give you what happened to me when I got outta prison in 2015. I’m on parole for the rest of my life and, but I know I’m sitting on this really powerful story wrapped around this great message. And there’s the first part, the story that I can tell and the message within. I think if you’re gonna be out there speaking, have a message, have this, and this is your brand, this is what you build your brand around. What’s the message like? My call to action at the end of every presentation is be a coffee beat. Mm-Hmm.
DW (17:13):
The last four words he ever said were be a coffee beat. But it was a statement, it was an order. Like, go do this. And that’s what you want to build a message inside your story. But I think that you have to work your way up to that. And, and if you’re trying to tell a story in front of an audience, it’s like reading a book. If a book doesn’t grab me in the first seven pages, I’m shocking it aj I’m not, I’m not re it’s, you got seven pages
DW (17:48):
Mm-Hmm.
DW (18:30):
DW (19:10):
No one’s gonna let me in. I found a cop and a judge that would take me around and sponsor me to, to take me into schools. But I knew that if I wanted to have a presentation and I wanted to be able to tell a story, the message within it, that would be impactful. Because that’s what you have to do. You have to figure out how am I gonna serve this audience? How am I gonna serve the reader? It’s all about serving people. We talked about this earlier, servant leadership. How am I gonna serve this audience? I knew I had to practice and get good at my message. There’s no such thing as an overnight success, aj. You know that. I know that. But people are drawn to that when they see those, those Instagram account accounts with the private jets, the Lamborghini and all that.
DW (19:48):
I want that. I want that. Well, you know, it takes a long time to get to something, you know, a lot of hard work. Most of the days that I spent the first two years outta prison were not in front of audiences. They were in my parents’ spare bedroom cuz there was a mirror in that spare bedroom. It just happened to be there. When I moved in every single day I’d come home from work, I worked at a law firm, which is a really good job for a guy outta prison,
DW (20:27):
The mirror was my audience, but I sharpened it up. I was poised, I was ready to go. And then in 2017 dabble Sweeney, the head coach at Clemson, brings me in to talk to his team. The first big college football coach in America that gives me my shot and my presentation was so on point, so direct on message and it, and it served Dabo s team so well that Dabo got on the phone. He started calling every coach in America for me. I mean, Nick Saban, Kirby smart Lincoln Riley, he’s calling ’em all up and he’s telling about this guy he gotta bring in. But Dabo introduced me to a guy named John Gordon. And then John Gordon calls me up out of the blue and he’s telling me, he is like, Hey man, I was just, I just got done talking to Clemson’s football team and Dabo was telling me about your story and, and, and the coffee bean message.
DW (21:15):
And, and that’s when John says, Hey Damon, write this book with me. We’ll call it the coffee bean. He said, the world needs your message. This is where I think that you, a lot of people give up before they get to this point, but growth follows belief. And you have to believe in yourself before other people will believe in you. And the belief in yourself is gonna become from the consistency, getting in your reps, putting in the work. And that’s the thing about life. You know, no one could put in your work for, you have to put in your own work in life. But when you get that belief in yourself and, and the reps behind it, then I think other people will believe in you because your message has to be developed. And when it gets in front of other people, cuz like you said, you don’t, you know, you hear these stories about people wanna talk about the goods they had done pour out about the stuff you overcame. That’s the, that’s where the secret sauce is.
AJV (22:06):
Yeah, I love that. And I love just that reinforcement of you have to be ready before the opportunity comes, right? Yeah. You’ve gotta be doing this way before you get your chance. But it also, it’s like I really like, I think one of the things that if, as you’re listening, you haven’t picked up on this before, it’s like there, you’ve gotta have a message deep within you that is bigger than any obstacle, bigger than any rejection. It’s like, I don’t care how many times I’m gonna get told no. Like I know I’m meant to do this. So if I have to practice it for myself in front of the mirror for the next two years, then so be it. But I know that this, this is the message that I have to go out and share. And I think that’s just a really good reminder for all of us is like, it takes time, it takes practice, it does not happen overnight.
AJV (22:54):
And not only does it not hope that it happen overnight, it’s like no, you’re doing tons of work behind the scenes no matter what you’re doing. And anyone who has started a business, started a family in a marriage, raising kids, you know, doesn’t matter what it is, how much work it takes that no one sees before anything actually works. And so one of the questions that, as you were talking about, cuz you mentioned talking to football teams, but you also talk to lots of corporate audiences. You talk to all types of audiences. And I was just like looking at your client list on your speaker press kit as I was prepping for this interview. And it’s like, man, you’ve got audiences that range from students to corporations to associations. And clearly your books have mass audience appeal. And one of the questions that I have for you with such like a powerful, unique story, right?
AJV (23:45):
Is what, what are the common themes or messages that you’re able to kind of universally share with audiences that regardless of their background, like these apply? And then how do you find those, right? Because I know, and I’m just thinking at, we just came off the hills of a two day event that we hosted for our community and brand builders group. And I think one of the things that people have a hard time doing is translating these like deeply personal messages that it’s like, I know if I’m in, if I’m in a room full of, you know, student athletes, I’m gonna crush it, but how do I make that work with a group of, you know, direct saleswomen from Arban or whatever, and it’s like, yeah. So how do you take these like big powerful stories and find these common themes as you mentioned, these messages of your stories that resonate across any audience?
DW (24:39):
Great question, John. So when John reaches out to me and he’s telling me, Hey, let’s write this book, we’ll call it the coffee meeting. We start becoming friends. John’s watching me grow as a speaker and he is about to really watch, watch Me grow as an author because John Gordon’s about to hitch me to his, to his rocket ship and put me out there in a different level, right? And he knows what’s coming. And he told me this, Roy, I mean he told me this aj he said, listen, he said, Damon, he said, you have been going out sharing your message and you have been sharing this. Be a coffee beam, man. That’s your brand. That’s your message. Be a coffee beam, you see it behind me, see it on my shirts, you see it everywhere. He said, stick with this. He said, and I’m gonna tell you this, a lot of speakers, a lot of authors, they’ll go and they don’t see a result fast enough.
DW (25:26):
And three years, four years down the line, they don’t see the results coming in yet. And then they changed their message, they changed their brand and they go a different direction because they weren’t seeing the results fast enough. He said, results take time to measure. I’ll never forget that. He said, stick with be a coffee bean. He said one day, if you do this, you’ll be known as the coffee bean guy. And that’s gonna be a pretty big thing to be known as. He said, I’m known as the energy bus guy. And that’s a very big thing to be known as. Stick with the coffee bean. Don’t ever change your brand or your message no matter what audience you get in front of. It’s always gotta be about being a coffee bean. When John told me that, that’s like one of these huge nuggets, and I know you and Rory talk about this a lot.
DW (26:09):
You gotta to build your brand, you gotta stay consistently on message. Now how does that translate? Because if I’m going to talk to a bunch of 18 to 22 year old college athletes, you know, there’s one message for them, right? And then there, if I’m going to talk to corporate America, if, if Walmart or AIG brings me into a corporate boardroom, what am I gonna say to them? Here’s what I would tell you. Do your research, tailor your message to fit your audience. Know what stories go with what groups, but never leave behind that core message. Every group I’ve spoken, and at this point aj, I’ve spoken to thousands, not a thousand, two, 3000 different audiences in that time. And I’ve never not told the story of the coffee bean, and I’ve never not told my backstory. Now, is my backstory the same in a corporate audience as it is in front of a college athletic?
DW (26:59):
No. Mm-hmm.
DW (27:46):
This is the same thing was what I’m saying right here. Now you’ve individualized it, you’ve personalized it for your group in front of ’em. They know that you put in the work to come and sit in front of them that day. You didn’t just come there to get a check, you came there to serve mm-hmm.
AJV (28:14):
I love that. What I wrote down, and I think this is such a good reminder for me to remind our whole community about this. So for everyone listening, it’s just the power of, you know what Damon just said, it’s like you have to know how to tailor your presentation, not change your message. Yeah. Right? It’s like, no, your message is your message and that’s what you wanna be known for. And I tell you what, Damon, you should have some like pretty big endorsements coming and you need to be hitting up like Starbucks and all the coffee shop
DW (28:43):
I’m tried.
AJV (28:44):
If you’re the coffee bean man, you need to be like Starbucks. Where at all,
DW (28:48):
I’ve tried Starbucks. It’s hard to get through to it. If you know somebody from Starbucks and we get off air, tell me, because I, my gosh,
AJV (28:54):
God, gosh. Well, I’m a bulletproof coffee girl, so i’s been a mile, it’s been a minute since I’ve been to Starbucks, but I will tell you, it’s like, but it’s like, again, it’s like once you become known for that thing, it’s like in brand builders group language, it’s called what we call breaking through she hands wall. It’s like you wanna be a power washer, not a water hose, right? Yeah. It’s like you, you’ve gotta just know exactly what your message is. And when people think of you, they need to think of coffee bean story, right? It’s like, when I think of a coffee bean story, I think of Damon. When I think of Damon, I think about these coffee beans and it’s like, once that happens, then you have broken through Sheehan’s wall, right? And then that’s a great reminder for all of us is tailor the presentation.
AJV (29:32):
But don’t change your message. Don’t change your message. I love that. That’s such a good reminder. And I’m also, I’m watching the clock and we have like five or six minutes left, and I actually wanna ask you two more personal development questions kind of about these books that you’ve written. And you’ve invested a lot of time into this message in writing these books. And so there’s two last questions I have for you. So, all right. I know that a huge part of what you talk about, what you write about is resilience, perseverance, and mindset, right? There’s lots more. But those are three things that stood out to me. And so some tactical advice for anyone who is listening or just for me what are some key strategies or practices that individuals like me and everyone listening that, that can adopt to help increase these qualities of perseverance? Resilience mindset shifts to navigate setbacks in our personal or professional lives. So it’s like a, when you know, the, you know, s h i t hits the fan. I’m on a, I’m on a non cussing roll right now so I can spell it, can’t say it
DW (30:43):
No, great question because we all go through this and, and, and is look, John, our friend John Gordon. John says that fear and faith have more in common than the letter F to begin with. John says, fear and faith, both believe in futures that haven’t happened yet. Fear is this negative future. You can choose to believe in that you get the choice, that’s good. But faith is a positive future. You get the choice to believe in that too. And you can choose your path every day. And it’s always better to choose faith over fear. If you’re gonna pick a future that hadn’t happened, pick the positive one. And this is where I, I try to like land every day, is like, I’ve gotta focus on the positive every single day because there’s gonna be negativity around me. There’s gonna be things that happen in life that can pull you out of this, this good time that you’re in.
DW (31:29):
But you gotta focus on the positive. I learned two things about diversity in life inside that maximum security prison, aj, this is what I learned. I’ve learned that adversity’s never as bad as you think it’s gonna be. Hmm. And you are always capable of way more than you think you are. Mm-Hmm.
DW (32:16):
Is it the traffic or is it you? It’s always gonna be you. And it’s always how you see three words that I love putting together. Position determines perspective. Mm-Hmm.
DW (33:03):
He said, man, these eight coaches are gonna be in this room. The best coach in America is gonna be named. I can sneak you in. I’m at the event right now. I drove an hour and a half because this event, he sneaks me in the back door and I’m there and I, I go open to meet all these coaches cuz I got this story I wanted to share with them. And every coach I met that night, AJ slammed the door in my face. They all told me no, there was one coach left one hour. It took me to get seven nos in one hour. I mean, I’ve been defeated that night and I’m in the corner of the Toyota Center. I’m getting ready to leave. I’m licking my wounds, feeling sorry for myself. The voice in my head is telling me, go home. You’re an imposter.
DW (33:36):
You don’t belong the imposter syndrome. And, and know we’re all gonna, you’re gonna go through this. When you’re out there speaking and writing a book, you’re gonna ask yourself sometimes, do I belong here? But let me tell you something, do not listen to yourself. Talk to yourself, because the voice in your head can be fear. Mm-Hmm.
AJV (34:28):
I love that. I love that so much. It’s sometimes we just need a little dose of inspiration to go, I got this, I can do this. I can do hard things. I took my kids on a hike yesterday to just commemorate Memorial Day and just like, just really just a, an hour and a half of just like, silence and helping my kids understand what Memorial Day is all about. And halfway through this hour and a half long ha now my kids are small, they’re almost four and just turned six. This is a long, this just feels like a marathon for them, right? It’s not that long. It’s two and a half miles, but it felt like a marathon for these small humans. And my husband ends up carrying my four year old, but my six-year-old, I’m like, Hey, if you can make it all the way back to the car, you get a sticker and a sticker is worth a quarter.
AJV (35:14):
And at the end of the week he gets to turn in his stickers for quarters for doing hard things. And he’s like, I get a sticker. And I’m like, yeah, I’m gonna give you a sticker buddy. It’s like 25 oh cents. It’s the whole quarter, right? And he gets motivated and he’s like, he’s hustling. And we get towards the end, he goes, mom, I just, I need to quit. I’m like, you need to quit. He goes, yeah, I need to quit, mama. My feet hurt. I need to quit. I’m like, nobody. And I pause like in the middle of all these people, they’re probably like, who is this crazy, like, you know, like cheerleader mom. And I’m like sitting there and I’m like, I need you to say this with me. I can do hard things. I’m like, yes, yes, I can do hard things. He’s like, no mom, I can’t say that. You’re so embarrassing. And I’m like screaming at the top of my lungs, I can do hard things. And and it was like, tell me,
DW (36:00):
Roy’s recording this while you’re doing it.
AJV (36:02):
Wish she was recording of it. I think she was quite a while back carrying my four-year-old. And here’s like the craziest part. It’s like, I don’t know if it helped him, but it helped me. It’s like, I hope it helped him, but it helped me. And it was like such a reminder that it’s like, no, I can do hard things. Like I hope Jasper, that you got something outta that. But at the end of the day, it’s like, after saying it like 10 times screaming in the middle of the state park, I’m like, no, I can do hard things. And I needed that reminder. And it’s like, sometimes it’s like, gosh, we just need to remind ourselves. Oh
DW (36:37):
My God, aj I love that. Cuz you’re hitting on something that, that, that is like the big force in my life that’s going on. Like every time I go out and I serve other people, this helps other people. I, I know it does and I hope it does, but I know one person it helps for sure. Mm-Hmm.
AJV (37:46):
Yeah. That, like when you were saying that, it just reminded me of that yesterday. It’s like, I don’t actually know if it helped him
DW (38:17):
Take your time. I don’t care. This is a fun conversation. Go on, go as long as you want. Let’s go.
AJV (38:21):
So in the Coffee Bean, the book, which everyone should go and check out, which I think is so great, and I’ll use this as my, you know public service announcements. If you want to check out more about Damon West and his speaking, his books, all the things he has going on and also grab a copy of this book, the Coffee Bean. He’s got other books too. He is got one for kids. Go to damon west.org. So that’s damon west.org. And then again, the book is called The Coffee Bean. It’s co-written with John Gordon. He’s got a version for kids, which I love all kids books, so I’ll be picking that up myself. Or follow him on Instagram, which is at Damon West seven. So it’s at Damon West seven on Instagram. Or just go to damon west.org and you can get all of his social themes there.
AJV (39:09):
But I’ll also, we’ll put this on the show notes for you. Okay. So last question. In a coffee bean, you talk about the importance of mindset and in my interpretation, how that can shape our influence, how it can shape our personal brand. So here’s my last question for that person who really does need to cultivate this, I can do hard things mindset. For the person who does have a lot of limiting beliefs, what would you say is the number one thing for that individual to cultivate a growth mindset? A I can do hard things. This overcoming of self-limiting beliefs. Like what would you say is the one thing that they can do to really well both build their personal brand, which for us is just their reputation, but also to just live a better life. Like, what is the thing that we can do to change our mindset, to build a better mindset?
DW (40:01):
Yeah. This is, this is something that, that I had to remind myself of, and I think every one of us do. And aside from the things you just said, because that’s very important. You just said something very important because your brand is your reputation. This is you. This is like, you know, everything about what you’re putting out. That’s your reputation. So guard that, but it’s consistency. Be consistent. Take the same action every single day. And, and you know whenever, whenever you’re consistent, you start building this confidence in yourself because like, you know, ed talks about this a lot. You keep promises that you make to yourself. Mm-Hmm. But be consistent. Show up every day. One of the hardest things about working out is just getting to the gym. And if you can get yourself to the place where you need to be every day to be consistent, that’s when it’s gonna happen.
DW (40:48):
But it’s gonna take time. And just understand that, that you have to put in the work. But consistency trumps everything else. Consistency can beat talent. By the way, talent is great to have, but talent doesn’t beat someone who is consistent and won’t go away. Someone who’s persistent. Someone that gets in front of the, a mirror in a spare bedroom where they live on parole and practices a presentation that one day is gonna be their business that, that they use to create other businesses with. Because the speaking business, I mean, you know, aj it’s something I never, I, I tell my wife almost daily that I cannot believe this is my life and I get to go out and impact a world like this. But it provides for a, a life for my family that’s created generational wealth. I mean, every generation’s changed underneath me now, but it started out in my parents’ fair bedroom, speaking in front of a mirror for two years to get my presentation right, to go speak one time in front of Dabo Sweeney. You know, that’s what it’s about. Being consistent.
AJV (41:47):
I love that. You know, I’m, I’m actually, I’m reading through the Old Testament right now. I’m in this like Bible and a year program and I’m reading through the Old Testament. And one of the things that has stuck out to me most about the Old Testament is how often people get their answers or their desires given to them is persistence. Like, I can’t, I, I’m gonna start counting like how many times a king said, yes, I’ll resolve this, just leave me alone. Or how many times it was just like pure persistence, pure dis consistent. I’m gonna show up every day at this, at this king’s doorstep. I’m gonna show up every day at this, at my master’s door, and I’m gonna ask and I’m gonna ask. And they’re like, oh my gosh, just I’ll give you whatever you want. Stop asking me. Yeah. And it’s such a great reminder that it’s like so much power comes in persistence.
DW (42:36):
And you’re in the Old Testament right now, like the book of Job man. If you want to read a story about a guy that was consistent and just showed up every day while the S H I T was hitting the fan read job, man. This dude, this dude endured way more than any anybody you can imagine. For years this went on, lost his entire fam. I mean, everything was taken, but he had faith and he had consistently, consistently, he believed every day that I have faith in this and it’s gonna work out. And that’s, you gotta have what they call the patience’s a joke. You know, I tell people all the time that that since we’re talking about the Old Testament, that that God doesn’t set bushes on fire anymore. H ha that’s a very Old Testament thing that God did to get people’s attention. But you know what God does today? God sets people on fire. Mm-Hmm.
AJV (43:44):
Reach it. Love this. Y’all check out Damon. Go to damon west.org, check him out, follow him, buy his books. Spread the spread. This good news Damon so, so awesome to have you on the show. Thank you so much for sharing your story and these words of wisdom. And for everyone else, stay tuned for the recap episode. That will be coming up later this week. We’ll see you next time. Thanks so much.
DW (44:10):
Thank you. Thank you.
Ep 405: The 5 Reasons Why Authors Miss Bestseller Lists | Patty Aubery Episode Recap
RV (00:02):
What a fascinating, uh, story and recount of the Chicken Soup for the Soul brand. I loved it. Uh, this is a recap, uh, a little bit of that, that interview I did with Patty Aubrey and just, uh, if you didn’t get a chance to hear it, it’s about how they built the Chicken Soup for the Soul brand and, you know, sold all those books and changed the whole world and changed the whole industry. And it’s just a little bit of a, a, you know, just fun to go behind the scenes and, and see how that all worked out. And so I thought for today’s episode, I would stay in the theme of book launching and book selling. And I’m gonna walk you through five of the reasons why I think, uh, the five of the most common reasons why authors miss bestseller lists. Um, obviously Chicken Soup for the Soul came out years ago, and so it was fun to see how they bundled things and packaged them together to, you know, sell so many books.
RV (00:59):
In recent years, this has been a huge part of what we do at Brand Builders Group. We, we’ve helped 14 different authors become New York Times or Wall Street Journal bestsellers at this point, um, including myself, of course, which we’ve done. And it is something that we just, we know a lot about. And we are working with all of the biggest publishers in the world, pretty much, and many of the biggest authors in the world. And, you know, so many of our clients at Brand Builders Group are authors at some point are aspiring authors. And so we, uh, you know, we don’t just do book launches, but that’s one of the things that we do really, really well. And we’ve had a, a really strong track record of success, especially here consistently in the last couple years. So, um, I wanna talk about the five biggest risks that, uh, we see for why authors don’t hit bestseller lists.
RV (01:51):
And number one is volume risk, volume risk. So by far, the number one reason why most authors don’t hit the major bestseller lists is simply because of sheer volume. You know, the way that these lists work, uh, you know, the two major ones, New York Times and Wall Street Journal, we do follow others. We follow U s A today, we follow Amazon, we follow, um, you know, the Washington Post, we follow Publishers Weekly. There, there’s, there’s several other lists, but the two main ones, New York Times and Wall Street Journal are, are the biggest and the most credible, and people just have no idea how much volume it takes. Now these lists, most of them are weekly. The New York Times does have a, a monthly bestseller list, um, that is a business bestseller list, which actually, there’s, there’s more than just business books that qualify for that list.
RV (02:42):
We see, uh, psychology books appear on there, and self-help books also appear on there. But the main, uh, list that most of our clients at Brand Builders Group, uh, are going for in that we’ve, we’ve hit is the New York Times Advice Weekly, how to List, which is arguably the toughest list there is. It’s, it’s a very, very competitive list. And then, um, in the Wall Street Journal, the Wall Street Journal has a, a nonfiction list that many of our clients hit. And it’s all formats, paperback, you know, uh, and, and a hardcover, but, and all different nonfiction, um, BSAC codes. And then there is the, the Wall Street Journal business list. And, um, all three of those are the kind of the main three lists that we track and that we’re helping clients hit. ’cause that’s mostly what we do, right? Is, is non-fiction, business, self-help, health psychology, et cetera.
RV (03:33):
And, um, so you have to, in order to hit these bestseller lists, I mean, there’s a lot of things that have to happen, right? Part of which I’ll talk about here in this, in this, this episode. But the first, the first thing is you have to have a volume of units. And, and you have to understand that not every sale counts, only sales at certain outlets count. They’re called reporting outlets or reporting retailers. And so that’s one of the things that we do. And we advise our clients on their strategy. One of the things that we talk about is making sure their sales count. Um, and that’s something that we often help authors with as in addition to helping them create the strategy for how to sell a lot of books. Um, we also have a lot of strategies around making sure the sales count.
RV (04:15):
Because if you sell books at the back of the room, like, let’s say you’re a speaker and you sell at the back of the room, those books don’t count. Um, for the bestseller list, they have to be sold through reporting retailers. And, um, that’s a whole puzzle in game in and of itself. But, um, the way that these bestseller list work is they’re weekly lists. And so they are the number of units sold through all, you know, reporting retailers within a certain period in a window. And usually that is one week. And, um, in this case, these three, they are in one week. And, you know, just, we have a data science team that tracks this specifically. And once someone becomes a client, we actually share a lot of this data with them. The actual specifics, I’ll give you some broad numbers here though, but you know, roughly to make a run at a New York Times, uh, bestseller, you roughly need to have around 15,000 units in a week.
RV (05:07):
Um, we have had clients that we’ve been able to hit with less, um, but we also know people who have missed with more than that. And so, again, part of it depends on how the sales happen and where the sales happen, which is just one of the things that we just try to speak into and, and that we do speak into. ’cause we’re really good at it, even though our main focus is just teaching authors how to ethically and honestly sell a lot of books. So you gotta get about like 15,000 units though just to hit, you know, the, to be a candidate, you know, to hit the New York Times. So that’s not easy. And then a Wall Street Journal nonfiction bestseller, you know, roughly speaking on most weeks and every week is different. And that’s something that we look at and track, um, is when’s the best time to publish, to hit bestseller list, et cetera, and who your publisher is.
RV (05:51):
There’s lots of things like that. Um, but there is around 10,000 units is usually what you’re gonna have to sell in a week to be a candidate for a Wall Street Journal nonfiction bestseller. And then for the Wall Street Journal business, um, that, that one fluctuates, you know, quite a bit. But we typically say 3000 units sold in a week. Um, and you know, that’s a lot of books to sell in a week. So, you know, you’ve gotta create a campaign and a strategy, but that’s the number one reason why authors don’t hit, is they just, they have volume risk. They don’t have enough volume pushing through and also in the right locations. Like they don’t, they don’t know who the proper reporting retailers are, and they don’t have a strategy there, and they don’t even know that. They don’t know that that matters. And so, um, I mean, I, I see sales, I see books every week.
RV (06:37):
I mean, I just looked up one yesterday, a book that sold 4,000 units in a week should have hit a bestseller list. And it didn’t, it missed, and clearly they didn’t have someone advising them on, you know, the, the full picture of how to run these launches. But so volume risk is number one. Um, and it’s heart, it’s heartbreaking when people get the volume and miss, and the reason they often miss is ’cause of number two, which is what I call technicality risk. Um, so the technicality risk is just being unaware that there are so many technicalities that go into hitting these bestseller lists. Part of how I learned this is that one of the most heartbreaking moments of my professional career, um, was when my, my second book Procrastinate On Purpose came out. Um, and I, uh, we, we sold several thousand units. We should have been, and we expected to be a number one Wall Street Journal bestseller, which we were with, uh, take The Stairs, my first book.
RV (07:35):
And I sort of fully expected to do that. And I, we sold the units and then the bestseller list come out. And not only did we not hit number one, we weren’t on the list at all. And that is part of what sent me down a journey of discovery because it was gut-wrenching and, and, and heartbreaking. Um, not because you need the title to feel important, but because you pour your heart and soul into something for years, you know, making a book and preparing and doing the launch. And, and, you know, we know a lot about launching books, um, and, uh, this was at our former company, but, uh, so we weren’t in the business of, of teaching people how to do this, but it was, you know, it was frustrating and discouraging and it felt political, right? I, I felt like I, I got hosed or somebody was against me or out to get me because I sold more books than the books on the list that week.
RV (08:26):
And yet we didn’t, we didn’t hit the list. And that’s because of something called technicality risk. There are many different technicalities that have to be accounted for. And one of ’em, as an example is something called your BIAC code, B I S A C. Um, and so BIAC code is something that most authors don’t even know about or don’t even think to look at. Now, BSAC Codes stands for book industry Standards and Communications. Um, and what it is, is it is like the way that, that the industry organizes and categorizes books, right? There’s so many books, thousands of books, you know, every probably every month or maybe even every week that are coming out. And so these books get organized by category. And the industry categorization method is called the BSAC Code. And the BSAC code is the official category that your book is in.
RV (09:15):
Well, for example, when it came to the Wall Street Journal bestseller list, what was so painful was that, um, my second book was not properly categorized, and it was categorized as a self-help book. And really it’s a business book. Well, why did that matter? It because self-help books never show up on the Wall Street Journal business bestseller list, regardless of how many units they sell. So I did all of this work, our team did all of this work. We pour our heart and soul into it. Our clients are rallying to support us. You know, we’re, we’re, we’re launching this book out into the world. We execute everything and we miss the list on a technicality.
RV (09:55):
It was heartbreaking, right? Um, and, you know, that book never took off. Like my first book, take The Stairs took off, and my first book continues to sell really, really well. Now, it, it, uh, procrastinating on Purpose. My second book, it sold fine. I’ve earned out my advance, I get royalty checks. Um, we sell, you know, a a hundred plus copies every week still, but it never took off, like take the stairs. And part of it I think was ’cause we just, we lost a lot of that momentum of the bestseller and all the buzz, and it was because of an avoidable technicality. And yet no one brought it up to me. No one ever mentioned my literary agent, my publisher, my editor, our, you, you know, our marketing team, like our PR team. No one brought it up. I don’t know that they knew to bring it up.
RV (10:40):
I didn’t know to bring it up. And so that’s a part of where I started exploring this. And then ultimately when we exited that business, it started Brand Builders Group. One of the services that we started providing was book launch, you know, consulting and coaching and teaching people how to not only sell the books, but how to make sure their book sales count for the list. And that you don’t lose out to technicality risk. That’s only one type of risk. There’s other types of technicalities, geographic, there’s publisher risk. Did you know that certain publishers are more likely to show up on the New York Times than other publishers? Um, there are all these things that we track that are just technicalities and you just don’t even know as an author, and no one even brings it up. And you’re so focused on just trying to sell books, which no one has a really good plan for, unless, unless you’re working with us. Then it’s, it’s just like, man, it, it, it’s, it’s, it’s really tricky. So you gotta watch out for technicality risk and you need to talk to somebody who knows what they’re doing and who understands and looks at these bestseller lists. And that’s, you know, part of what we built at Brand Builders Group is a data science team that does nothing but track data just to understand how the bestseller list work. Um, number three is kind of closely related, we call it over estim Overestimation risk.
RV (11:52):
Overestimation risk. And this is definitely one of the reasons why authors miss the bestseller list, which is that they overestimate the importance of PR and social media. Uh, now you might say like, how could you overestimate the importance of PR and social media? Well, PR and social media are good things. You, you need to do them, you should do them for your book launch. But for most authors, that’s what they think. That’s what they think is going to make them make or break hitting the list. And what we know in reality is that only 0.001%, that’s what our team estimates after running several of these launches of your social media falling will convert to become book buyers 0.001%, right? So if you’re Eric Thomas, et the hip hop preacher, we helped, um, Eric Thomas run his entire book, launch the Strategy from Beginning to end, um, and we hit the New York Times with et or he hit the New York Times, we got to be a part of it.
RV (12:51):
And you know, ets amazing. He’s a legend and he is got 5 million social media followers. Well, we estimate that around 5,000 of the book sales came from social media. Um, how do we know that? Because we track all the sales and where all the sales come from. So that’s, if you’re Eric Thomas, right? You might sell 5,000 units from that. So when we created bestseller launch plan, which is our formal curriculum at Brand Builders Group, where we teach people the five mechanisms for how to sell a lot of books, what we created that because we realized for ourselves that social media and PR doesn’t sell that many books. Even when you get on the major podcast, like the biggest podcasts in the world might move a few hundred copies, right? I mean, we’ve had, we’ve had clients and friends and I personally been on many of the biggest podcasts in the world.
RV (13:37):
You might move a couple hundred, 300, a huge, huge podcast would move like 500 units, even the Today Show or national television, right? We’ve had friends, uh, and clients get on the Today Show. We might see a thousand units from that one sale or from that one appearance, which is good. You still need to do it. That’s a thousand units, that’s a thousand lives you’re changing. But a thousand is nowhere near enough to hit any of the bestseller lists, let alone a New York Times, right? So you gotta have a whole other strategy going on here to to, to pull it off. I’ve been on national tv, um, multiple times and I’ve seen, I’ve seen my biggest national TV appearances might move a thousand units. I’ve had some national TV appearances where I can’t even tell, you know, any sort of a, you know, deline able difference in book sales from a national TV appearance, which is hard to get.
RV (14:27):
Um, so there’s this overestimation risk of PR and social media that’s not what move books. You need to figure out a better plan that’s gonna move them. And if you’re a B B G client, obviously we’re, you go through the bestseller launch plan curriculum, you have access to it. We teach you, we teach you the whole system. So watch out for that. Number four is inventory risk. Inventory risk. And this one is another devastating, heartbreaking, tragic thing that makes, gives me so much pain, which is that authors do all this work to create the sales. They have all the money, they have all the people out there buying the books, and the publishers haven’t printed enough inventory, or they have printed enough inventory, but it hasn’t been shipped in time to get to the retailers like Amazon and Barnes and Noble and Books Ilion and all the independent stores and whatever.
RV (15:16):
And so when your audience goes to buy the book, either it shows sold out and nobody can buy it. Or what’s even more frustrating is you can buy it. And so you’ll place an order and you’ll buy a book online and you will make the sale, they’ll collect your money, but because they don’t have the inventory, the retailers can’t ship the books out in time. And so the books get reported when they ship. And so even though the sale happened in a certain week, the reporting of that sale doesn’t happen till future subsequent weeks. And so you have an author’s launch where all, everything they poured into this, their, their reporting gets diluted across multiple weeks. And I’ve seen that happen multiple times. And it, and it typically happens with newer authors, younger authors, smaller publishing companies, and smaller print runs because they just, they don’t know how many books the the author’s gonna sell.
RV (16:14):
It’s their first time. They don’t, they can’t take a huge risk to print a whole bunch of copies. They don’t realize how important it is. And they underestimate how long it takes to print books and get ’em shipped, and then for the retailers to get ’em and checked into inventory and you could do everything else right? And then miss on this one, just again, sort of a horrible technicality of, of, of going, man, I, I created the sales. The sales are there, people spent the money. We, we, we had people buy that many units in a week, but they didn’t get reported because of the way that the inventory happens on the backend. And again, as an author, it’s like, how do you know this? Like, you don’t even know to know this. It, it’s taken me years to figure this out and to learn this stuff.
RV (16:56):
And, and obviously part of why we started Brand Builders Group and created the services that we have, one of which in, in this book Launch in Space. And that points to number five, which is the last one, which is Planning risk, planning risk. And this one is the one that’s controllable. And this is the, this is, you know, the biggest controllable issue that authors have, which is they wait way too long to plan for their launch. Most authors don’t plan for launching their book until their manuscript is done. And you might only have a few months before the book comes out. And that’s not enough time to fully plan and execute and orchestrate and pull off the, the, the logistical, uh, masterpiece that has to take place in order for a book to become a bestseller. I mean, most of these clients that we’re working with we’re, we’re, we’re helping them, we’re helping them years in advance because they’re b b G clients.
RV (17:52):
And so we’re helping them build their platform, build their speaking career, build their social media, build their podcasts, build their funnels, right? Build their sales team, build their events. We’re, we’re building all of this stuff up. And so they’re already in position that we can execute a launch quickly. But if you’re just rolling off the street as a new author and you don’t have a clue how to sell books, and you don’t have a team and you don’t have a huge audience and you can’t get on national tv, it’s like there’s no chance. I mean, the, the ship has sailed be before, you know, like that, that game is already over before it began. And it’s just ’cause you don’t know and you don’t realize that you have to plan. I mean, anything that takes excellence, takes planning. Like you have to plan way out in advance.
RV (18:32):
And so, you know, we tell even, uh, our ideal time is that we should be talking to an author about a year before their publication date of their book if they really wanna make a run at a bestseller. Now, there’s times where we have one regardless, right? Um, Tom and Lisa Bilyeu, uh, hired us 13 days before their book launch. And in 13 days we were able to grow their total sales over 30% in 13 days. And, um, Lisa hit the u ss a today bestseller list, kind of just barely. And so we played a really significant role in that, um, which was great, but you know, they also have a lot of things going for them that not every, you know, new person does that we could, you know, so we were able to move some things and make things happen quickly. Can’t always do that with, with up and comers.
RV (19:17):
So, um, you gotta start planning early and, you know, if you have a book or you wanna have a book coming out in, within the next year, I mean, request a call with us now, like, do not wait. I mean, and you can, you know, you can do that every week. If you go to free brand call.com/podcast. We mention this every week. You can request a free call with our team and you can start getting educated on this and learning about this. But don’t wait too long to plan otherwise, you’ll miss your window. So there’s a lot more going on here to becoming a bestselling author than just selling a lot of books. And those are the five biggest risks for why people miss the list. Hopefully, by knowing ’em, uh, you can help avoid, will help you avoid ’em. And if you’re not sure or exactly clear on exactly how to do that, then talk to us and let us be your partner in this process. Share this episode with an author that you know, or someone who’s an aspiring author or someone who has a book coming out. This is a must listen to must see episode. If someone is an author, this can be life-changing information. So I hope you’ll share that with somebody who is on that path. Thanks for being here. We’ll catch you next time. Bye-bye.
Ep 404: How Chicken Soup for the Soul Sold 500 Million Books with Patty Aubery
Speaker 1 (00:02):
The first time I met Jack Canfield, I was just a young whipper snapper in my early twenties at the National Speakers Association. Over the years, we’ve gotten to know each other a little bit. I’ve interviewed him a couple times. And now I’m so excited because I get to introduce you to Patty Aubery, and she is the president of the Canfield Training Group. So that’s her current role. But she also formerly was one of the people behind building the Chicken Soup for the Soul Series. And then they, that became a billion dollar brand. They sold that business. And so we’re gonna hear a little bit about that story and how they did it and what they’re up to today at Canfield Group. But Patty also is the author of a group of a book called Permission Granted. And she talks about really like how to find the, the bold courage to go out there and just claim and own your voice and share your message. So she was an easy and obvious fit to bring here to the show. And anyways, Patty, great to meet you.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Thanks. Thanks for having me. It’s nice to meet you too.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
So, and I love, you’re a part-time Nashvillian and a part-time Santa Barbaran, which are, those are, those are great places to be. So you’re, you’re, we’ll have to hook up in person when you’re here, but I’d love to start at the start. And this is probably not the start, but when I, when I think of, when you say Chicken Soup for the Soul, I mean, that is in such a category of its own. I mean, it’s, it’s just, it’s so far different. And, and not just one book, but the whole series. I would love to just hear how did it start and then what did it become? And just like, how did you even meet Jack and, and how did you guys get connected and y you know, just like, walk us through the story.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
So I, it was like 1989. I was living in Santa Barbara actually at the time, and I was working for a tech company that sold government software and I hated it. And I was always in trouble. I was not meant to live in a cubicle
Speaker 2 (02:34):
You don’t have a choice. Uhhuh
Speaker 1 (03:49):
Wow. Interest inflation.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
And he said, okay, can you have lunch? I’m like, wow. He is smart and he is easy. This is a good thing. And so I ended up taking the job, went home, told my dad who flipped out, you’re gonna work for a hippie. I send you to business school. What’s wrong with, you know, he just flipped
Speaker 2 (04:32):
And then one day he came home, I think it was like right after I started in July. In September, he came to the office and said, you know, I go out and do all these talks and everybody keeps saying, do you have that story in a book? Mostly women? Do you have the story in a book? He’s like, no, but it’s on my Nightingale Conone tapes, or it’s on my career track tapes. Or, you know, and women would say, but I don’t listen to audio tapes because I’m in the car. I’m out of the car. I, you know, I, I read. So I think the universe is telling us to take all the best stories from all the best speakers and put ’em in a book. And I said, okay, thank God I was 24. I had no opinion. ’cause If it was today, I’d be like, what are you talking about?
Speaker 2 (05:08):
So I started working on it with them. And we published our first book in 1993. As you know, we had a hard time finding a publisher, if you’ve heard, a lot of people have heard that story. And we ended up with a real small publisher at a Deerfield beach, which was the biggest blessing on the planet because he owned his own printing press. Ah. And so by, it took us about 14 months to hit a, a bestseller list. And we did every wacky crazy marketing thing you could do. John Kramer’s, 1001 things to market your book. I mean, we did every one of ’em, maybe except for a couple hundred. And at the very tail end of getting the but together, mark and Jack met at a breakfast club and Mark said, Hey, I should do that book with you. And Jack said, okay. And so that was a whole new Mark, Victor
Speaker 1 (05:55):
Hanson, everyone that Victor Hanson see that she’s talking about. Yep. So
Speaker 2 (05:58):
And so
Speaker 1 (05:59):
Who was also an n s Aer. And they, so they, they had known each other, I guess for a while.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
They kind of knew each other, but not well. But Mark, you know, mark is so gregarious and could sell anything to anybody, and Jack’s much more of an introvert. So it was a good team, and it was great for me because I got to learn the, the really anal side of Jack as a teacher. Every detail he explains. And I also got to have Mark’s brain of, you know, come on, kid. Bake it till you make it. If you believe it, you’ll see it. I mean, I’m like, okay, if this stuff doesn’t work, mark work, start a church. ’cause Mark was also a Bible scholar,
Speaker 1 (07:18):
The same publisher.
Speaker 2 (07:19):
Same publisher, okay,
Speaker 1 (07:21):
So this is not, this is not like a major New York publishing deal where they’re paying you a book advance and push pushing your book everywhere. This is like a small publisher pr basically, basically like a vanity, like a hybrid publisher today. Maybe you printing your own books.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
Well, they’re, they, they were a regular publisher, but they printed like recovery books like John Bradshaw, you know, healing the Inner Child, Melanie Beatty, recovery Books, addiction, things like that. So they were little, but he had had a couple bestsellers Okay. In the past. And so when he saw the number start climbing, he bought the highest end German printing press. Like he got prepared, he saw, and he would call me, he is like, keep those chickens rolling. I mean, he’d sing to me, you know, I’m like, oh God. Another book. You know, we marketed the first book forever before anything happened. So when Marcy said that, we did that book, and then we thought, well, what else could we do? And then the next book, my mom was diagnosed with cancer, and my sister had come to work for me and she said, why don’t we put a bunch of stories together for mom about people that have survived cancer? And I said, so all you authors out there listening, or anybody that’s thinking about having a big dream, the words that came outta my mouth, which are embarrassing, were, well, why would they let us do a book? We work here? And she said, Patty, you have been with Jack before it was even an idea who deserves it more. And so, and she was bossy. She was younger than me. And so she convinced me. So I went into the conference room with Mark and Jack and said,
Speaker 1 (08:58):
This is Marcy.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
No, my sister came to work. Oh, your
Speaker 1 (09:01):
Sister, okay.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
Yeah. And, and she just gotten her degree in nursing. And so I said, while you’re studying for your state boards, help me read these stories, because there were stories coming in. And so I, I presented this thing, I wanna do this book, chicken Soup for The Surviving Soul. And I was so scared. And they said, okay. And I went, yeah, great. And so did that book, and then that led me into Chicken Soup for the Christian Soul. And I did, I did 14 books of my own out of the 250 that I managed over like an 18 year period.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
Wow. You guys did 250 ver iterations of that brand.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
We did 200. Wow. And that it, it was such a blessing. And they
Speaker 1 (09:45):
Were all just different verticals like that. Basically chicken soup for the teacher’s soul and for the brothers soul and whatever.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
Exactly. And, and the thing is, because we said in the back of the book, if you have a story, share it with us. And so people started writing stories and it sort of gave us, it was like foreshadowing. We knew what the market was looking for. We were getting a ton of pet lover stories. We were getting a lot of Christian stories. We were getting, you know, all kinds of different things. So at one point, I think my publishing schedule was five years out and Wow. I think the biggest year we did 18 books in one year. It’s, that’s insane.
Speaker 1 (10:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
So did, were, were all the books selling well, or was it just the, like, a few of ’em that were really the main drivers?
Speaker 2 (10:34):
I think the one that sold the least was probably Chicken Soup for The Surviving Soul. ’cause It was a very small market and that probably sold 500,000. Teen Soul sold 12 million
Speaker 1 (10:49):
Oh man.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
You know, Christian Soul, I sold a million the first quarter out the door. So out of everything we did about, maybe we did like 230 or 240 tiles, but when we sold the company in 2008, we had done, I wanna say, and we did a deal with the Chinese. So there was, so we’re up to 500 million copies sold with all the books collectively
Speaker 1 (11:19):
500 million copies across 240 ti 250 titles. Wow. And so they, and then they bought and they bought all of them. That was the deal was they basically, they said, we’re buying. Like, what, what did they exactly, they bought, they bought the rights for all those books.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
Well, we didn’t get in advance. He, we actually had to guarantee him that if we didn’t sell 20,000 copies of the first books, we’d pay him back. So, and then we worked out in advance, you know, so we could be off the road and writing books. We got a decent royalty, but we, we also owned all the rights. So we were able to do licensing. We did dog food, we did grading cards, we syndicated columns, calendars, journals. We did a lot of, we did a lot of work with pharmaceutical companies. We did co-branding with a lot of different brands that were launching new products. We
Speaker 1 (12:12):
That Did you sell all of that stuff? So basically, is that what became the business, was like all the books plus all the licensing deals of where you licensed the brand out?
Speaker 2 (12:21):
Yeah. So what what happened was we had all these co-authors. So if you think about it, I think I figured it out. I had 26,000 contributors.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
Wow. And
Speaker 2 (12:32):
Over 500 co-authors. And so the co-authors all got a nice royalty, but we owned the trademarks and all the rights at the end of the day. And so in 2008, when we sold it, it was about as good as the entire time that we, like, we, we kind of doubled our money in one day and we sold it and we sold it to a couple guys out of Connecticut.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
And, and so that, and then after that, as of that time, then it was just like, it was gone. You guys sold it, they took over the rights, all the licensing, all the people and everything. And then basically you guys were starting over, so to speak, like it was all you were out.
Speaker 2 (13:13):
Yeah, it was weird.
Speaker 1 (13:15):
Wow. Like
Speaker 2 (13:16):
How many employees? Chicken soup people. And one day you’re not
Speaker 1 (13:20):
And what, how many people were there?
Speaker 2 (13:22):
W we had, so we had two companies. So Mark had a company, and then Jack and I had a company, and then we had a shell company that kind of held all the assets. So on Mark’s end, they were in charge of licensing and legal. And on my end it was marketing and production and specialty deals. So we kind of, and Mark’s Mark was married to a gal named Patty at the time. So it was basically the four of us kind of running it. And then I had about 15 employees. And Mark Mark’s company, they only had a couple employees that actually worked with chicken. My entire team was on, I mean, from permissions to editorial, to creating marketing plans, getting things ready, and things like that. So
Speaker 1 (14:12):
When you were launching these books, like what worked really well? Like you, you, I mean, you launched 250 books, 18 in one year. Did, did, did you think that, was it really about the launch and it was like, oh, if we, if we set it, if we do a big launch that sets the trajectory? Or was it more of just, we kind of do the same thing for everything. We put it out there and some of them catch flight and some of them don’t?
Speaker 2 (14:37):
No. We did a launch for everything. And we, we did things like Chicken Soup and NASCAR Lovers Soul, and we worked with head NASCAR headquarters. When we did the Pet Lover book, we worked with Marty Becker, who was on Good Morning America as their expert veterinarian. We did a deal with Petco, they got the books for the first two weeks before I went to bookstores. And that was 500,000 copies. We did Chicken Soup for the Traveler Soul and had a giant rig go from New York to LA with a giant chicken on the side with the backpack and stopped in all these small little places. So every single title had a very specific marketing plan
Speaker 1 (15:19):
And like a marketing partner
Speaker 2 (15:22):
Most of the time. Yeah. Some were just authors that were great authors and they already had platforms like Marcy Moff, Lisa Nichols different people. They had a, a decent following. So over time you start to look at, okay, your perfect author has a platform. They know how to speak, they know how to edit. And you know, once you get it going to a certain level, you have all these people out there promoting this massive brand. And so it just, and, and the publisher put a lot of money into placement. I mean, if any bookstore that you went into in those days, we had a whole wall. I mean, those are not cheap.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
Oh, so the publisher was buying store placement? Oh yeah. Was it the same publisher the whole time? That’s that like local publisher?
Speaker 2 (16:06):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
Wow. So they like went all in on you. They’re buying printing presses. They’re pushing it to the front of store. Mm-Hmm.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
Right.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
Wow. Yeah. That’s expensive stuff.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
I know. And he has a very nice jet these days.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
Yeah. It paid off for it paid off for him.
Speaker 2 (16:26):
Yeah. He was, he was really, he, he is a big horse race guy and he loves to bet on things. And he, he just, he kind of bet the farm
Speaker 1 (16:35):
And picked the jockey, not the horse man. He, he got it. So that’s, that’s amazing. What a cool, I didn’t know that. I didn’t, I didn’t realize that. I didn’t know that you guys were doing, you know, paid promotion and all that kind of stuff. I mean, you, you know, a lot of people don’t realize you just buy that space like in the airport or whatever, like Right. But it’s expensive and, and competitive. It’s expensive.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
That’s why it’s really hard to get a book published with a New York publisher because they, they have a lot of, they have upfront costs, you know, and the thing with us that we were so lucky about was we thought, oh, we, we really wanted a bigger publisher. And we met with other publishers over the years, but nobody could pump out 500,000 books a week. But he could, because he owned the printing presses. He owned the editorial, he owned the art department, he owned the distribution. So it was a one side, it was like a little mini Amazon before Amazon.
Speaker 1 (17:29):
Wow. And so how, when you, when you would launch, I mean, you, like you said, 500,000 for Petco. That’s insane. So you, I mean, that was down the road though. That was after you had established the brand, the books were selling and then people are going, Hey, we wanna do, we want to do, you know, chicken soup for the whatever, soul. And then, so we were these licensing deals and these kind of part promotional partners, were they basically just coming to you at some point once or were you always prospecting them?
Speaker 2 (17:55):
Yes. Always.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
How, how, how did you do that?
Speaker 2 (17:59):
Well, the first time we did anything at all for licensing, we did a book called Chicken Soup for the Golfer Soul. And so we went to the P G A show and my husband owns a golf company. And so one of the companies came and said, Hey, we want 300,000 books. We’re launching this new driver to go up against the Callaway Big Bertha driver. So I went to my publisher and he said, no, we can’t do it. There’s laws, you know, pricing laws and so forth. And so my husband said, well, why don’t you just create like a little tiny book and just wrap it around the head of the golf club and charge the three books and sell ’em how many units they want. And I was like, that’s like a lot for a little tiny booklet. He is like, yeah, but if you do that at the same time, the book’s coming out, it’ll spread the word that way.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
They’ll, he, he said, you guys are like the Callaway of golf, you know, as Chicken Soup. That was our first deal. And it was great ’cause it was upfront money. And so we, we thought, well, that worked for golf, who else could we do it with? And then we, we got a gal that was really in with brand managers and pharma and said, well, we we’re doing a book called Chicken Soup for the Unsinkable Soul. You know, is there a brand that could use us to help launch? And they said, well, we’re doing this new drug, Paxil for depression. If you could put together a few stories on people overcoming depression, we could launch that with it. So when you go to the doc, so we did, zoo would sell a million units to a pharmaceutical. They would then give ’em to the reps, the reps would take them out with the new drug.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
They would give ’em to the doctors, the doctors would prescribe. And then they would say, by the way, here’s a message from the chicken soup people. So we were sort of that warm and fuzzy side of the drug world, which really covered the overhead because when you’re, when you’re writing books, you don’t get a whole lot of money as a royalty. You know, we were only making a dollar or 25 a book or whatever it was. And when you’re splitting that with other authors and you have overhead, you’ve gotta figure out creative ways to pay your overhead. And so that was the beginning. And then we thought, well, what if we got a licensing agent? And so we started licensing greeting cards and cups and mugs. And, and then she came to us and she said, okay, chicken soup for the dog, love soul dog food. And I’m like, this is really pushing it. But it was the biggest licensing deal we did. It was crazy
Speaker 1 (20:22):
Really that, I mean, I used to believe that. I mean, pet lovers are, I mean, people, they’re crazy pets are, they’re, yeah. I mean, they’re family members. Like it’s a, it’s, they’re,
Speaker 2 (20:30):
They’re uhhuh
Speaker 1 (20:31):
Speaker 2 (20:45):
Went to an agency. Yeah, we went to an agency in New York and got a licensing agent. And, but when we did specialty deals with farmers and stuff, I had two people in house. So that’s all they did were send out proposals all day long every day. And we would mock up stuff like, this is what we’re thinking, this is what it would look like. We did all, we did the research, we knew what they were doing. So we always went out with, Hey, we know you’re working on this. We think we have a way to help support you. So it wasn’t, Hey, we need you. It was more like they kind of really needed us. It was still a hard sell. We probably did a hundred of those over the years, but probably sent out thousands, you know, to get the hundred that we did.
Speaker 1 (21:24):
And you’re just basically going pick a company, you basically like pick a company or, or you pick a market and then you find a company that serves that market. And then you go, what are the goals of this company? And how could we pitch this or present the idea of a book specific to that market in a way that they could use it to help them achieve whatever their other goal was.
Speaker 2 (21:48):
Exactly. Like, for example
Speaker 1 (21:50):
That’s so brilliant and simple, but so brilliant.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
It was Mr. Toad’s Wild Ride. I’m telling you. It was a crazy like
Speaker 1 (22:51):
Uhhuh
Speaker 2 (23:36):
Pretty much. I mean, it was a little bit harder, you know, mostly like boots on the ground. Who do we know? You know, we reached out to people that we knew. At the time it was February, Sue Mancini that was running Parker Chiropractic. Kathy Cooper was a friend, and I just made her, you know, made a call and sent her a mock up of what I thought it could look like. And, and so we always gave them everything we possibly could mocked up how it would work, what it would look like. The biggest thing was, you know, in the book business, you get returns when you do a specialty deal, it’s a one-time sale. So it was bulk buys of a hundred thousand or a million or whatever it was. So there was no risk, which made it a lot better.
Speaker 1 (24:20):
Right. Well, and because they’re u they’re using it as a marketing tool. It’s, it’s not like, it’s not like selling to a bookstore who’s gonna try to resell the book. They’re packaging it. Like when you, when when you said the pharma one, you basically, you were saying that the, the reps would give them basically piles of them to each doctor so that every time the doctor prescribed the medicine, they also gave them a book.
Speaker 2 (24:45):
Exactly. Or a sample of the book. But the sample would be like a 16 or a 32 page. And because that, that way you could have a, you know, you weren’t carrying cases of books. And it also was at the exact same time we were launching something in the bookstore.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
Right. So,
Speaker 2 (25:02):
So, and, and there were some that were just specialty, that were just never, that never went to bookstores. But we always look for where is there money and distribution that we don’t have, and where can we show up outside of a bookstore? Because only 3% of the population ever went into a bookstore in those decades,
Speaker 1 (25:22):
Even back then, which was the peak, the peak bookstore time. Yeah. Yeah. So, so that’s a really powerful question. Where is there money and distribution that we don’t have? Basically where is there a huge network of people that you just kinda like are tying in, tying into and riding that sort of, riding that wave or working in that circle?
Speaker 2 (25:44):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
Patty, that’s amazing. What, what a powerful story. So, so then so you sold the company and then you started the training company, then it was Canfield Training Group after that? Or were they kind of running like simultaneous?
Speaker 2 (26:00):
They were, we, we, we would do one big training a year. ’cause Jack loves to do really in, you know, deep workshops, more like, just a lot. It’s a lot of personal work. And so we did that every summer during chicken soup, but we weren’t on the road as much because we were so busy editing and compiling books. And before chicken, we had a company called Self-Esteem Seminars. And so that’s still today our original company and we have a D B A of, you know, the Canfield Group and Jet Camfield companies. So when we sold, we kind of sat around and felt really weird. I was really happy. I’m like, I am good to go. They don’t, I’m done. I’m, you know, they, it’s like they don’t care what I think I didn’t have. And that was the big thing for me. I didn’t wanna have to come onto another organization and be responsible for three years or whatever it was.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
So we didn’t do that. And and I said, well, you know, we, we published the Success principles in 2005, so this is two, 2008. I said, why don’t we circle back and start training people how to do what we did and using the success principles. And all of those principles were used throughout our time of setting goals and creating affirmations and, you know, writing down steps that you have to do and visualizing it and sharing your vision and all the stuff. And, and we had more clout by that time. So we did kind of a year long road trip to about 10 cities and did one day events. And we, we just, we just called it Train the Trainer if you wanna become a trainer of the success principals. And we had a huge teacher market, so they were kind of our ideal avatar because they already knew sort of how to speak.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
And then it morphed from that into an online certification when certifications really weren’t happening yet. And so we decided to do that so we could get to more people. So for less than the price of travel, you can get certified online. And so that was a two year process. We did that. And now we, you know, we, we mostly cater to authors, speakers, coaches and teach them interactive exercises that they can bring into the things that they do. How do you make your talk more engaging? We do a lot of author stuff. I just came off a two day author retreat. I do those about eight times a year. Mm-Hmm.
Speaker 1 (28:35):
18, which was an, which was an event, an event that you guys hosted that was specific for authors.
Speaker 2 (28:41):
We worked, we do it with Steve Harrison. Do you know who Steve and Bill Harrison are?
Speaker 1 (28:47):
That sounds familiar to me. They,
Speaker 2 (28:48):
They used to own a company called Radio Television Interview Report, r t I r. Okay. And we would place ads with them for all of the books to get radio shows and TV shows. And so they cater to authors a lot and helping them get their books done and published. So we do about eight a year. It’s me and Jack and Steve, and we did like two, this two we had, I wanna say 18 authors total. So it’s like a, it’s like a mastermind. Mm-Hmm. And we did, we do ’em via Zoom, and we just talk about, okay, here’s your book. This is what you should fix. This is a way that you could market it. Think about doing this. And
Speaker 1 (29:25):
Yeah, I mean the, I have to say, this is probably the, just the most creative marketing strategy book marketing strategy conversation that I’ve ever heard. Really. I mean I mean, it’s really powerful and, and simple. And, and so then and so then, and then that led you to write permission granted. So you had written 14 Chicken Soup books or been a part of 14 yourself, and then you released permission Granted. So you’re still at the, you’re still president of Canfield, you guys are still doing all that stuff, but then you released your own book here recently as well?
Speaker 2 (30:02):
I did. I released Permission, granted, I wanna say probably right before the Pandemic in 2019, it was a compilation. People like a and Janet Atwood and Marcy Shimoff and Lisa Nichols, and then other people, it’s only like 15 authors. And I just said, just gimme your best story of when you finally decided to give yourself permission to show up and just go for the dream. Like just say it out loud. And, because I feel like so many people, they, they wanna write a book or they wanna do something different, or they wanna put their job, or they wanna say, I don’t wanna be married anymore. Or they wanna ask for a raise. I mean, whatever it is, it’s, it’s, at least in my life, it was hard for me to speak up. And I’m a pretty bossy kind of gal. But I was a professional hider, so nobody knew that I was running the company.
Speaker 2 (30:56):
No. People would call me to speak Rory, and I would turn it down. Oh, we have 7,000 women in the stadium. Can you come and speak about your book? Oh, no, I’m too busy running Chicken Soup for the Soul and the President. And because I didn’t know how to do it, and I thought you had to memorize everything. And I didn’t know there was a formula. So once I figured out, wait, there’s some method to this madness, I, and by doing the online training, I kind of figured it out and I’m like, there’s a methodology here. There’s certain key ingredients that you need to use. And so I just thought, I’m, I’m gonna do it. And I kept waiting for Jack to say, Hey, you should, you know, come on stage more and you should. And he never did. And I literally told myself that he must think that I’m terrible or he would’ve asked me. And the real story was like, well, I didn’t know you wanted to do it. He’s like, I’m not a mind reader. So that sort of set me off on this journey of, of giving other women permission to really mm-hmm.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
I love it. Well, I mean, we’ll link up to permission granted in the, in the show notes and everything. Yeah, I mean, what a story Patty is, is where do you want people to go to, to, to learn about that about you or what you’re up to and what you’re working on right now?
Speaker 2 (32:12):
They can go to my website, it’s patty aubrey.com and that’s a U b e r y. Everyone spells it r e y, but it’s a U B E R Y. And I do women’s retreats. I do a lot of coaching for people that need to learn how to share their message more. And just some other fun things and a lot of stuff with Jack as well. So we run a lot of high-end luxury stuff, fun things around the world
Speaker 1 (32:39):
That’s really, really, really cool.
Speaker 2 (32:41):
Can we do some in Nashville? So we’ll have to invite you next.
Speaker 1 (32:44):
I mean, yeah, let me know. I mean, it’s, it’s, it’s in the neck of the woods. I at least gotta come over and say hi. Like I would love to know this. This is such a great story and I mean, this is amazing. 500 million people that you guys reached with just that and every, and that was all the way back in 2008. So everything that you guys have done since then is just really, really inspiring. I mean, if, if there’s somebody out there listening right now who, you know, has that dream and they go, wow, you know, and think back to where you were, where you couldn’t get the publishing deal and before you sold 500 million copies and 250 books and all that. But like at some point there must’ve been a moment where you guys were just starting out where you’re like, what are we even doing? Like what, how, how are we gonna, how are we gonna pull all this off? Like, what would you tell that person right now?
Speaker 2 (33:35):
I would say make a plan. Share your vision with everyone. I mean, the reality is, the publisher that finally said yes to us after 144 said no, was the only person we knew at Book Expo. And we said, Hey, could we just park our backpacks here while we go hand out manuscripts? Because our agent gave us the book back and said, sorry, I can’t sell it. And at the end of the weekend, we still got more nos. And then Peter
Speaker 2 (34:21):
Mm-Hmm. Amen. And think we have to go someplace else. So tell everyone, you know what you do, share your message, get it down. Well go hang out with Rory, got brand builders. It’s amazing. I’ve checked it out and, and just don’t give up. I mean, it takes time. And I, I do believe that Chicken soup sort of put a spin on the book world that you can just go out and have these bestsellers. And the reality is, I tell all of my clients books are like babies. You don’t birth them and leave them in the alley to raise themselves. Mm-Hmm. You have to raise them and spin off products and think of trainings and how can you coach people and what, you know, your book is like the hub of a wheel and every spoke is an next opportunity to take that to a new level.
Speaker 1 (35:11):
Yeah. Well, you guys certainly did that. And I think I can call, I’m gonna title this from Incense, burning Hippies to the Billion Dollar
Ep 403: How to Set Your Fees | Mitch Matthews Episode Recap
AJV (00:02):
All right, guys. We are going to talk about how to set your fees. In other words, how to be well paid as a speaker, coach, consultant, author, who also does speaking, coaching, and consulting. But this is a conversation specifically designed for what we call the expert community. That person who is trading their content, right via coaching, consulting, speaking, writing, content, creating for money. And ultimately, this is to help you make more money so that your, your message gets more out into the world. At the end of the day, I believe that most of you who are listening to this are driven by mission and purpose, and you want to make money as a bri, as a byproduct of doing really good work. But at the same time, if you do really good work, then you should be paid like you do really good work.
AJV (00:56):
And for many of us there, a reason you’re not getting paid like you should is because you don’t have the confidence or the conviction to charge what you should. And that’s what this conversation is about today. So at Brand Builders Group we believe that there are four categories, sorry, five categories missed. One, there are five categories that really will help you decipher how do you set your fees? So we could talk about things philosophically or in theory, we could share best practices. That’s not what this is about today. What this is about today or what are the five categories that you need to evaluate yourself in to know how to set your fees. All right? And each one of these, I just want you to rank yourself on a scale of one to 10, one being not existent, 10 being crushing it out of this world, killing it.
AJV (01:53):
That’s what we’re talking about. So high level here are the five categories that we’re gonna go through. Credibility, content, delivery, right? Your presentation style, right? Stage presence, we could call it that. Marketing materials and reach, right? So I’ll say ’em again. Credibility, content, delivery, marketing materials, and reach high level. That’s what we’re going after here. So I’m also trying to keep this 10 minutes or less. So we gotta crush, we gotta roll. First one, credibility. Again, rate yourself on each of these on a scale of one to 10. One being I don’t have any in the market. 10 being I’m a household name, right? So this is what we’re talking about. A 10 is like a PhD or a global thought leader. These are people who have viral TED Talks, New York Times, bestselling books, people who are regularly on some of the biggest media and podcasts, your mainstream, right?
AJV (02:47):
That’s a 10. One being is you’ve got no specific expertise or track record in the public. Now, you may have a lot of hidden credibility. In other words, only a few people know about what you’ve done. But man, for those who know about it, they know it really well, and you’ve done an excellent job for them. But that’s a one, right? So this is credibility in the known marketplace. One to 10, one is going to be a lower fee. A 10 is going to mean a higher fee, right? And we’re gonna do this five times. So I want you to take an average at the very end, right? So as you jot down these numbers, so let’s just say you give yourself a five in credibility. I want you to take your average of each of these. And at the end of the, you know, episode, I want you to go, Hey, what’d you average, right?
AJV (03:37):
Did you average a five? Did you average a seven? Did you average a three? That’s what I want you to do. So that’s credibility. Content is the next one. Rate yourself on a scale of one to 10. 10 is someone who’s got award-winning ideas, original research. You are regularly referenced in the media or in the mainstream, but people come to you for this piece of content. You are known for this thing, right? You have a truly original thought leadership in this area, okay? That also means that you’ve got well-documented frameworks and IP that could be in the form of books, courses, speeches, TED talks, all the things. But it’s documented as yours, referenced as yours. That’s a 10 a one. As someone who has loosely constructed ideas, but no specific frameworks, f frameworks or organization. There’s no unique methodology or processes. And if you were just honest with yourself, these are somewhat largely repackaged ideas that already exist somewhere else.
AJV (04:44):
In other words, nothing original, truly yours yet, yet, okay? So give yourself a ranking of scale of one to 10, one being got none, 10 being I own this. Okay? That’s content. So you’ve got two. Now. Now, let’s go into number three, delivery. This is, again, I kind of said this earlier, stage presence, right? What is that? You know personality or charisma that comes across on camera, on stage in front of people one-on-one, right? 10 being you are
AJV (05:37):
But it’s like people are constantly commenting on the delivery of your presentation, of your content, right? One would be, you don’t get that
AJV (06:33):
That’s with websites, demo videos, slides, workbooks, resource guides your social media, right? It does not mean you’ve got to have the fanciest, most expensive stuff, but it looks good, right? It looks well presented. I just came off of seeing Taylor Swift in the ERAS tour. Now, she spent millions and millions and millions and dollars. I’m not saying that’s what it is, but man, it looks well thought out. It is well planned. It is important how things look and come together. You can tell that. So is that yours or are things mismatched together and you’re just scraping by? And that’s okay. You don’t have to be at a 10 here, right? But this is, this is just helping you go, man. It’s like, you know, people always say, don’t judge a book by their cover. Well, unfortunately, sometimes they do. They go, man, that looks so good.
AJV (07:21):
It must be as good as it looks. So gotta take some of that in. I’m not saying I agree with all of that. I’m just talking about where, where, where we are here in the world. And number one is that, I mean, you’re just, you’re first starting out and it’s version 1.0 of everything. You’ve got things in word docs and PowerPoints, and you’re using your own stuff on Canada. That doesn’t mean it looks bad, it just means things are kind of compiled together and mismatched, right? That will affect your fees and pricing. It just will. So let’s just call it what it is. Where do you fall on a scale of one to 10? Always knowing that we get to improve at every level, right? We get to do better then reach. So reach is how many people do you reach?
AJV (08:04):
How many people do you have access to? How many people follow you on social media? E email list, subscribe to your podcast, how many people you are in front of on a consistent basis, right? So a 10 would be you’re someone who reaches millions on the regular, right? This is in some sort of controlled medium as well, not just on social media, but you’ve got a large email list. You’ve got a huge amount of subscribers and downloads to your podcast. And you’ve got social media, right? So when you think about this, you probably have hundreds of thousands of people on an email list, hundreds of thousands of people on social media. You have access to reach through main media other top known, well-known podcasts TV shows, radio shows et cetera. But that would be a 10, right? A one would be you’ve
AJV (08:55):
Got no email list. You don’t even know how to make an email list.
AJV (09:39):
I only have like 9,500 people that follow me on Instagram, maybe 15,000 all in on social media. So this is not all about having a huge social media file. I don’t care to have that. But we have a fairly large email list, which I do care a lot about. I have access to lots of large audiences through other people’s podcasts and stages, but I would not rate myself anywhere near a 10. I would say I’m, in terms of reach, I’m somewhere like a six or a seven, right? And I do this for a living, right? But is, is being honest with myself to go through each of these. It will help, you know, one where you are today and in what of these categories can you quickly improve on. Like, I could improve on reach if I so desired, right? I’ve spent a ton of time and money and resources over the last year to upgrade my personal marketing materials.
AJV (10:26):
That was an area I was focusing on. My content, I feel like is world class, right? I do believe you should believe in yourself, and I believe in myself. Credibility. I have good credibility, right? Can always be more, we have original research, we’ve spent the money to get original data, like we’ve done that work, but it’s like where you score also lets, you know, where could you do more? Where could you get help? Where could you get coaching? Where, where do you need to put some attention is also really helpful. So here’s how I would base across, if you averaged ones across the board, I would just say a starting point would be, you are probably charging for, this is for a speaker fee or coaching fees. I’m just calling it for an hour, right? But if you’re charging, or sorry, if you’re averaging a one, you’re probably charging in the hundreds, not the thousands in the hundreds, right? And then just for the sake of time, just to kind of give you some averages here, if you average a five, right? So if you’re averaging fives across the board, you’re probably charging somewhere between thirty five hundred and fifty, five hundred, right? That’s a five. So at one would be you’re charging hundreds of dollars, right? And then the twos, threes and fours are those low thousands. And then as you average out of five, you’re probably charging somewhere between, and this, I’m looking at an hour here. This is kind of like for a speaker fee,
AJV (11:52):
Right? For $3,000, right? So if you were gonna do that for coaching, that might 3000 might be your first coaching package, right? Then again, trying to give you some baselines here. If you’re, try, if you’re averaging in the eights then you’re probably at a keynote fee. If you have eights across the board, you’re probably charging somewhere between 25,000 and $30,000 as a coach or a consultant. That means your package is probably somewhere between 25,000 and $30,000 if you’re averaging the eights. Now, if you were averaging tens across the board and you’re just like, you know, pit bull, pit bull is to worldwide himself, right? Like a speaker fee for you would be like a hundred thousand dollars of speech, right? You’re talking about like presidential rates here. You’re talking about Brene brown rates and Mel Robbins rates, Tony Robb rates who are more, right?
AJV (12:45):
Those are even more than this in some cases. But if you’re a coach or a consultant, right? Those are your packages, right? You could be upwards of the a hundred thousand dollars packages of your tens across the board. So this is how I want you to think about this. It helps, you know, one, what’s your baseline, where you are today in these categories, credibility, content delivery, marketing materials, and reach. And then I’m just giving you some averages. If you averages one across the board, then you’re in the hundreds. If you’re five, you’re in, you know, averaging five, somewhere between the three and 5,500 range. And then eights, you’re up there, you’re getting up there. It’s like that’s that 25 to 30 range. And if you’re, tens are across the board at six figures and up per speech or per package. So how to set your fees back to this, it’s like there are five categories that we believe are really important for you to consider to have some unbiased internal look at.
AJV (13:38):
What’s my content, right? How original is it? How forward thinking of it is it what’s my delivery style, right? How, how much have I invested into making sure that I know how to deliver it? Well, marketing materials, your reach. And there’s so many different things to be looking at here. And I hope this is kind of gives you a baseline. It’ll help you know where to start, where to improve. And also as those numbers, those averages increase. So do your fees. So how do you set your fees? You ask yourself, how credible am I? How good is my content? How good is my delivery? How good is my marketing material? And then how, how much reach do I have? And those are the five categories to help you set your fee. So go set your fees, go raise your fees, and go get well paid. We’ll see you next time.
Ep 402: How To Be Well Paid as a Coach with Mitch Matthews
AJV (00:00:02):
Hey everybody, and welcome to another episode on the influential personal brand, AJ Vaden, one of your hosts today. And y’all, you are in for a treat today. I got to start my day with one of the very first emails in my inbox. Was an email from Mitch. And here’s how I knew this was going to be a really great interview, is he felt prompted to go, I don’t know why. And you can totally pretend like I never sent this email
MM (00:01:15):
Come on over.
AJV (00:01:19):
Emos happiness and joy. So y’all we’re gonna have a really good time. Now you probably are wondering what was this person? But he talked, who a
MM (00:01:26):
Heck is it? Yeah,
AJV (00:01:28):
So lemme introduce you guys to our guest on the influential Personal Brand podcast today. Please meet my friend Mitch Matthews. Now let me give you a very quick formal overview of who he is, what he’s done, but then also I wanna tell you why you wanna stick around. So Mitch Matthews is a successful entrepreneur. He’s a coach. He’s also a fellow podcaster, which, you know, I love. He’s also had lots of mutual friends on his podcast, including my awesome husband Roy, and some of our very good friends, Jamie Kern, Lima, and Louis Howell. So we’re already in really good companies. I love that. But here’s what I love most is that you guys know that we call our audience at Brain Builders Group mission-driven messengers. And what I love is that Mitch says he’s on a mission to encourage the encouragers, and he is out there to help coach, mentor, and inspire coaches, speakers, and content creators to be well paid. So now you know why I invited Mitch to be on the show today. So, Mitch, welcome.
MM (00:02:35):
Oh, thank you so much. It is such an honor, and I, I like you, I just couldn’t wait to get till this to this interview. So I’m, I’m really excited to be here.
AJV (00:02:43):
Well, I’m so excited because, you know, we serve this mission-driven messenger, the coach speaker, yeah. Content creative content creator, author, but also I love what you said, I wanna help them be well paid. Yeah. And I think that’s such an important part of this conversation because here’s what I know about many people in our audience is they, they feel like they’re on a message, like they’re on a mission, right? Yep. They have a message that, you know, it’s instilled in them and they’re like, man, I just gotta get this out into the world. But turning that mission into revenue sometimes takes longer than expect it’s time. Absolutely. There’s a disconnect sometimes. And so, first things first, I wanna tell our audience why they need to stick around is cuz one, we’re gonna talk about how do you get well paid, right? Doing what you love as a byproduct of doing good work and serving other people.
AJV (00:03:34):
But at the end of the day, it’s how do you become well paid for what you do because you do it so well. Right? also, y’all, I think this is really important. And again, re regardless of your personal beliefs whether you’re religious or you’re spiritual or none of those things, I would just encourage you to stick around and just listen to this part of it. Of, it doesn’t matter if you have a religious affiliation or what your spiritual standing is or if you’re totally undecided. This is going to give you some insight and some inclination on why. For some of us that feel really directly called, like for me, I’ll just use myself example, fond know Mitch, he’s gonna share his story. It’s like I got the privilege of experiencing God and miracles at a really young age. And so I’ve been really convicted not because of my parents, not because of people around me, because of my own personal experiences, but I also know not everyone has had those.
AJV (00:04:33):
But for when you get to encounter someone who has, I think there’s just a really important aspect and conversation that you can. So just take some takeaways of going, man, I’ve never heard it that way. I’ve never heard it described that way. I’ve never heard a conversation like before. So I would just encourage you to stick around for that. And then last but not least, we’re gonna talk about the coaching industry. And just what’s happening, what’s coming and what do you, what’s going on need to be prepared for. So those are all the reasons why you need to stick around. So, you know, we might be here for three hours. I
MM (00:05:06):
Was gonna say bar. I hope you packed a lunch. People. Let’s be do
AJV (00:05:09):
That. It’s gonna be great. It’s gonna be action packed. Lot of energy. Ok. So what all of that said to help our audience get to know you a little bit, Mitch, can you just like, you’ve been in the coaching industry, you’ve been coaching for two decades. Two
MM (00:05:21):
Decades. I started when I was 12. I started right outta elementary school.
AJV (00:05:26):
But also, I know because I’ve also been in this industry for 15 years, right? That 20 years ago, it wasn’t cool to be a coach, right? It
MM (00:05:35):
Wasn’t cool to be a coach. Nobody knew it wasn’t cool. Nobody knew it was to be a coach. My uncle said, what is a coach? And who’s gonna pay you to work with them? It’s crazy. You know, all the, everybody’s got that grumpy uncle, all of that, right? And like Twitter didn’t exist, Facebook didn’t exist, all those things, right? It was a different world. But absolutely my, the quick story was back then I was in the pharmaceutical industry, and when I first got into the industry, it was a great fit. It was a, a technical cell, it was a relationship cell, and I had a lot of success there. And then I got into training, which was awesome. And then I got promoted into a bad fit job, which I am grateful for looking back on it. I am so grateful because that woke me up because the pharmaceutical industry was good, but it was not where I was supposed to live my life.
MM (00:06:27):
And that last bad fit job was a wake up call to say, Hey, this ain’t it. And if I hadn’t had it, I probably would’ve lost two decades there doing something I was good at, but not what I was meant and designed to do. Hmm. And so that woke me up. I actually really had some dark nights of the soul. Like, what am I supposed to do? I thought I was on the right track, obviously not big time. And I came home one night, really kind of downtrodden, brokenhearted, all of those things. And my wife puts a magazine in front of me. It was a business week magazine, and it was a story of an entrepreneur. And I’m like, okay. And she’s like, no, no, no, not the main story. Look at this sidebar story. It’s a story about his coach. And kind of like you were just saying back then, I was like, what is that?
MM (00:07:14):
And she goes, I don’t know what it is, but that’s what you do. Right? Because that’s kind of what I did. That’s what I did with our friends. That’s what I did at church. Like, I would sit down with people, I’d be that safe place, I’d be that sounding board, I’d listen and I’d ask questions. She goes, you’re just not getting paid for it. But that’s what you do. Figure out how to do that. And so I found a really expensive training program that wound up having no business training at all. And I became a more confident coach, but I had no idea how to actually build a business, start a business, that kind of stuff. So I started it on the side, kind of figured it out on the side of this bad fit job. And you know, I’m wildly grateful to say that I thought it was gonna take five years, but once things really started to click, and honestly, even some of the things you were just talking about as far as I, I kind of prayed into it really leaned into it, those kinds of things. I thought I was gonna be five years, but I was able to quit that bad fit job in five months and completely replace my income and not look back. So now, like you said, I’m a coach, a speaker, I say I’m a con or I’m a coach, developer and a podcaster.
AJV (00:08:21):
Mm. I love that. And yeah, I mean, what I think it’s really good. It’s like, you know, everyone talks about like how to make your side hustle, your main hustle, right? Right. That side thing, your main thing. Right? And here’s, here’s one of the questions I have because I think a lot of people, a lot of people at least in our circle, have somewhat of a similar kinda story. It’s like, man, it’s like, how could you just get paid for doing this thing that I love to do? What the heck, heck, I’m good at doing. People come to me for if I could just do this, it’s like my full-time living, like life would be so good. And then they,
MM (00:08:55):
I have it all figured out, right? Like, yeah, the birds would land on my finger and sing to me. Yeah.
AJV (00:09:01):
But then they start doing it and they’re like, oh, wait this is a lot of work. This is a thing. I’m not getting paid as much as I thought. So here’s my question for the audience.
MM (00:09:11):
Yes.
AJV (00:09:12):
How do you know if you will be a good coach?
MM (00:09:15):
Yeah, absolutely. So I love that conversation because it’s so, so important. And one of the things, you know, you’ve touched on it, and I, I gotta say I tip my hat to you and Rory, you guys are juggernauts in our industry. I, I like, I’m not blowing smoke. I, I just really mean it, you guys, the value you guys put out there I think you guys exemplify the very things that we’re talking about. So I just, I just want to say that as we’re moving into this for real I mean, I ha I remember having Rory on the show and it was years ago. And I’m like, good lord, this guy just like, just so full of energy, but also great content, all that stuff. So I’ve loved you guys for a long, long time. So kind. So all that to be said.
MM (00:10:00):
So I think if you’re interested in becoming a coach, interested in becoming a speaker, I always say it’s gotta start from a foundation of mission. That’s actually what we talk about too. Like, talk about that. You’ve gotta have a heart for actually seeing people thrive. It’s gotta start there because I, and I, you know, I’m lucky enough, we’ve, we’ve had a coaching training program for years. We’ve been able to help thousands of coaches. And I’m always pretty open about it that if you get into coaching, just because of the economic opportunity, which there’s a lot, like, I now look back on that safe pharmaceutical job, and I’ve made as much in a month as I used to make in a year or more, right? So there is money to be made here, but if you only get into it for that, or even if that’s your primary reason, you’re not gonna be able to sustain it.
MM (00:10:50):
Because there are gonna be seasons that are hard. There are gonna be seasons. I think by God’s good design, there are gonna be seasons where the money either isn’t gonna be there or it’s gonna be lighter than you thought. Those kinds of things. And that’s when you have to double down and say, well, I am doing this for all the right reasons, it’s gonna work out, right? Mm-Hmm.
MM (00:11:33):
I tell this story like I, my heart hurts for the grays because that’s what I was becoming in the pharmaceutical industry. I was becoming a gray. And I was reminded of this just recently at a keynote at a, it’s a Fortune 100 company. They had me come in, you’ve had this experience where they had me come in for a conference at their headquarters. They had me sit in the lobby for just a few minutes while I was waiting for my person to come pick me up. And I’m watching people go in and out, in and out, and I’d say 70% of them were gray. Hmm. Like wildly talented, obviously sporty dressers, you know, making bank, but their eyes just weren’t alive. Right? And my heart hurts. I just wanna grab those people and say, what are you supposed to be doing? You know, like, so I always say, I never want that flame to go out.
MM (00:12:19):
I, I do believe that that flame is put there in me by God. Like I think that’s a part of my God-given gifts is to have that, that fire, that burns for that person to say, Hey, I was put here to help people figure out why they were put here, and I’m just supposed to stoke that flight. So that’s, that’s big a part. Being a part of what’s gotta be at the foundation. At the same time, a very close second has to be a commitment to learning the basic business skills and a commitment to bring excellence, right? You might have either a god-given gift or you might have a true passion to help people. But if you’re not also committed to learning some of the basic business skills that you need to learn and to deliver excellence where you can, doesn’t have to be everywhere.
MM (00:13:04):
And you don’t have to serve everyone, but you have to be committed to delivering some excellence. I mean, you guys, we were talking about this bit before we hit record. Like, you, you guys bring so much excellence, like everywhere you look, when you look at the vains, excellence, excellence, excellence, I know you don’t try to do it everywhere. You don’t have to be everywhere, but you bring excellence. And I think that’s one of the best things that we do. We have to commit to that. That also means we don’t have to commit to everything. And it also means you don’t have to be great at everything. We just have to be committed to bringing excellence. And where we can’t bring excellence, you know, to certain areas. It’s like I’m committed to learning how to bring excellence. Those are some of those core things. Now we can go a lot deeper, but those are some of those core things that I, if I see a natural gifting and a true passion for helping people with a willingness to learn the business basics and commit to bringing excellence, that person can be successful.
AJV (00:13:58):
Mm-Hmm. I think that’s really insightful. And I’m on a double down on two things really quick. Because I know that, you know, for us, for example, it’s like we eventually do things excellent
MM (00:14:16):
Oh, it gonna be messy to start with. Right. And
AJV (00:14:18):
I think that’s the key. It’s eventually, it’s eventually because hundred percent, the truth is we do it wrong a lot at first. Yeah. And you said something about, you know, committed to excellence, which means you gotta be committed to get through the sludge. Oh yeah. And not give up. And so I think
MM (00:14:38):
That’s a really big deal. That’s a really big deal. Especially me, Mitch Matthews. I am a recovering perfectionist, right? So that perfectionism takes out more people that should be coaches, coaches and speakers than just about anything. Because that perfectionism, it’s to your point, they’re like, well, I should have a kick website from day one
AJV (00:15:21):
Yeah. I think that, and that’s, that’s the key. It’s, it’s the learning part. Right? Right. It’s you know, I think’s so funny because I’ve been reading this book, the Circle Maker. So if anyone is ever is anyone who’s like, come on, you have never read it. It is one of the best books. I’m like, li like, it looks like a workbook. Like every single
MM (00:15:42):
Is amazing.
AJV (00:15:43):
It’s so good.
MM (00:15:44):
Get it on Audible too. Cuz Mark Patterson has such a great voice and he reads, it was like, I’m sitting here with Mark and he’s reading
AJV (00:15:50):
Book. Oh good. It’s so good. It’s so good. And one of the things that I read, and I was just reading on this and I shared this with you earlier, it’s like my favorite, my favorite quote right now is pray. Like it depends on God, but work, like it depends on you. Yeah. And, and then that was the second thing that I kind of wanted to talk about is like, learn the business basics. Yeah. Right. You have to learn basic business skills. And just because you want to be in business for yourself doesn’t mean that it’s going to be easy and nor doesn’t mean you should. Right. Right. Being in business for yourself is a lot of hard work. So, and your opinion Right. Helping people through this Yep. For a lot of years. Yep. What would you say are the non-negotiables? You must learn this. Yeah. In terms of business skills, if you’re gonna make it.
MM (00:16:35):
I love it. I love it. Oh my gosh, yes. So boy, I am so glad this is gonna be four hours, so let, let’s just get into it. Right? Like, that’s great. So a number of things like, I mean, I, I know you guys in your countless episodes have gone after important subjects, like getting clear on your ideal client and we could talk about those kinds of things is so powerful, so important. There’s really good ways to do it, really bad ways to do it, all of that. But I think for us, like, like you had mentioned, I have a heart for encouragers. And I really do want encouragers, especially those encouragers to who decide to be coaches, speakers, and content creators. I want them to be well paid. Because if they’re well paid, that means they can do it. They can be a blessing to their community, a blessing to their family, and have more impact, right?
MM (00:17:22):
So that’s great. So money comes up a lot now as I, as we’ve been talking about, faith is an important thing for you guys. It’s a wildly important thing for me. And so this is something that I wrestled with because I do feel like a lot of my core foundational gifting of encouragement, of listening, of being, you know, excited, all of those things, right? I believe that’s a gift from God. So when it came to coaching I bumped up against something that a lot of people experienced that, oh crap, how do I charge for something I’ve kind of done my whole life? Like I was called, I was called the pastor in my all men’s dorm in college, not because of my holy living
MM (00:18:23):
Like, and it wasn’t always faith-based, sometimes that came up, but most of the time I was listening, I would give them feedback, I would encourage them, I would be a sounding board, all of that right? In, in my career, I got into training and, and really coaching became a core part of what I did as I was building up salespeople in the pharmaceutical industry. Mm-Hmm.
MM (00:19:06):
Right? And I can tell, I can pinpoint different things that happened to me that before the event, the world was this way after the event, the world was this, this way, you know, before this relationship started, my world was this way, you know, after that relationship, boom, my world, you know, expanded all those things. But I think one of my biggest breakthroughs was when I realized that the money that we charge as coaches is more for our client than it is for us. Hmm. That’s good. Okay. And I tell my clients this, it’s so funny. I have a A C E O that I’m working with right now. Big Jesus guy loves Jesus, all that stuff. But he said, your, and he didn’t use this language, but he was like, you are mother fluke and expensive. And I’m like, I know, right?
MM (00:19:56):
And I said, well, thank you right Now, here’s the deal. He knew I was expensive because when we started to talk about the POS possibilities of working together, and we talked about my rates, he was like, holy crap, that’s expensive. And I said, I know, but that’s for you. And he goes, what do you mean? And I said, brother, if I send you this invoice and you decide it’s time to go, like if you pay this invoice, and I charge all upfront, that’s what I do for my coaching all upfront. And it’s again, for them, I say, this is the biggest indicator that you are all in. Mm-Hmm.
MM (00:20:48):
I wanna make sure they’re gonna be a good fit. It’s as much for me, it’s probably the complimentary call is more for me than it is for them. And I tell ’em that, but I always say, Hey, listen, if we make it through that comp call, I will know why this is or isn’t important enough for you. Like right now why this matters. Right? And I said to him, I said, listen, you know, you have been thinking about doing what we’re, what we talked about in the complimentary call for years. And you’ve read books, you’ve gone to a couple of retreats. Those are great, right? But when you make this investment, that is the ultimate sign to you, God and the universe, this is different. And I tell people all the time, I’m like, it might be the most expensive thing you’ve ever put pen to paper for other than your house or your car.
MM (00:21:37):
But when you do that, I want you to have a big goofy grin on your face. And they sometimes will, you know, it’s, we’re on Zoom now. They’re like, what are you talking about? I’m like, you can have the biggest goofiest grid on your face because you can know it is go time. Mm-Hmm.
MM (00:22:21):
And so there’s a lot of different aspects to deciding on your rates. There’s a lot of different aspects to deciding how to put packages together, all of those things. But at the core of it, you have to realize, yes, them paying you and paying you well, pays for a roof, pays for food on the table, all of that stuff. My, we have two boys, they like to eat. I like a roof. I like air conditioning. I’m a big fan. So I recognize that money does come for me. But for the most part, that investment is for them. And I, I have a friend that a very successful coach and even more expensive than me. And she goes, it’s amazing. Every time I raise my rates, I get to become a better coach because the people are more committed, they’re more all in all of that. And it’s like, yep. Isn’t that the craziest thing? So I know that’s one of those aspects, but when that switch flipped in my head, all of a sudden, a lot of things change to my business.
AJV (00:23:17):
You know? But I mean, here’s the thing that, you know, I just as you were talking that it correlates, it’s like the more money that your clients pay you, the more one bought in they’re in. But two, like that is a form of accountability, right? A hundred percent. If I spend $2,500 on a coaching program, it’s easy for me to, not that that’s not a lot of money. It is. Right. But it’s easier for me to go, I, I have got all this work stuff I gotta do versus if I really busy
MM (00:23:45):
20,
AJV (00:23:45):
But if I spent 25,000, I’m going here. No. I need to get my ROI outta that. I gotta That’s
MM (00:23:52):
Exactly right. I’m gonna So that up with a biscuit, right? They are not gonna miss a drop. That’s exactly right. And that’s, that’s what I love about this. And this also, we could speak to this a little bit, but this also speaks to the reason you want to have packages. Mm-Hmm.
MM (00:24:44):
I see coaches out there floundering, saying, well, I’ll coach you for a couple of sessions, or we’ll get started for a month. And like I said, people have less skin in the game and you can’t do your best work because, you know, I know for me, my podcast is called Dream Think Do, which I hope is catchy, but it’s also a description of how I work with people. And it, like in a three month period, we have spent about a month dreaming, getting clear on the vision of what they want to do. We do a month of thinking, which means planning and logistics, and actually drawing up, like how can we get that done? And then we have a month of doing, if it was a three month package, that’s how it would break down. And it, I need that time to get the full effect. And honestly, you know, somebody will come to me and say, well, can I, can I just buy a month of that? It’s like, no, I don’t want you to start this process without knowing how to finish it. Yeah. I would do you a disservice by only delivering a chunk of what we do. So wait until you can afford the whole thing. Because I don’t want you to get started and not finish.
AJV (00:25:46):
Okay. So super tactically speaking here just for a second, because I think there’s lot of really, really good nuggets for everyone who’s listen one well, the more you price, right, you’re going to price yourself out. Right. Which is really important as a coach because of supply and demand issues, right? Right, right, right. Yep. Less supply. Right. It means you gotta charge more, right? Right. And so I think there’s a lot of that. So as you’re talking about this, so it’s like, let’s say that somebody is listening until they, today they’re stepping into this going, all right, I’m gonna go all in. Right? I, yeah, I’ve been tip toing around this. I’ve been, it’s a side hustle. I’m going all in. How would you say, like, where would somebody start to go, this is what I’m gonna charge.
MM (00:26:30):
Yep. So
MM (00:27:23):
So you’re gonna probably price a little bit lower because of that, right? But I always say commit to the price. You can say without your voice cracking
MM (00:28:15):
Like, it was so weird to say, well, I charged $2,000 for this. So I knew I couldn’t say 2000. Like I, I, there are people now that go through our programs and they’re like, I charged $7,500 right out. And I love that, right? Because they’re like, that’s what you charge, or, you know, that’s what you said, or you gave this example package, why wouldn’t I use that? I can say that without my voice cracking. Go for it. I couldn’t, I just wasn’t that confident. I didn’t know, you know, all that stuff. Mm-Hmm.
MM (00:29:09):
But the biggest thing is get started. So start at a level where your voice doesn’t crack and then commit to double it at least a few times. I know. That’s what I did. Basically. I, I did two at $970, I did two at $2,000 and then I kept doubling it until I got to $5,000 and then I held there for a while, which was great, right? Mm-Hmm.
MM (00:29:56):
You know, make it kind of, we always say we want your ideal client to see themselves in your packages. So that conversation shouldn’t feel like a sales call. It should feel like they’re looking in a mirror. Like, I want that, how did you know? I want that. That’s freaking amazing, right? So it’s like, there’s, there’s tactics to that as well. But I would just say, Hey, at least get started. And it seems like again, if you could go with a price where your voice doesn’t crack and then commit to double it a few times, that allows people to get started, get momentum and get to the price point they want by actually doing it as opposed to worrying about it.
AJV (00:30:33):
Yeah. I love that. And just so much of that does come down to confidence, belief in yourself, right? Yeah. Now you’ve mentioned these packages, which I think is a really important second part of what I wanna go into tactically. Yeah. cuz you talked about pricing upfront and packages. Yep. Right? Yep. So yep. Walk, walk the listeners through. What are you talking about when you say packages?
MM (00:30:53):
Yes. So I love it. So packages basically. So there’s a lot of smart people that have done research on this kind of thing, and people love choices, right? It, it’s interesting, poi choice actually gives us the illusion of control. Okay? So when we have a choice, when we walk into Starbucks and there’s 47 different ways to get a cup of coffee, there’s a deep part of our hearts that go, yes, I am in control. Give me a skinny flo, you know, Floy, mac, ccino nut, whatever, right? Like, and I have control over my domain. Yes. Right? Now when it comes to higher ticket stuff, as you know, basically the magic number, people still want choice. But when it comes to higher ticket investments, three is the magic number. If we go over three people, teeter then into overwhelm. That’s why Starbucks it, you know, you could buy a cup of coffee for eight bucks, no problem, but that’s not a high ticket.
MM (00:31:54):
So we can have 4,700 different ways to get pro wrap up, whatever, right? But with high ticket items, three is your magic number. Now what you want, I always say look to the car companies, right? Look at Toyota. They have a Corolla, they have a Camry, and then they have the Lexus. They’re, they’re there for a reason. They’ve done the research. They know there are gonna be some people who go, you know what, I’m just outta college. I need the Corolla. That just makes sense. It’s a nice car. Got good gas mileage shot. There’s gonna be some people who look at the Corolla and go, I could have the Corolla, but I want the Camry. I really, you know, I want a little bit more room. I want to pull up and have people say, that’s a nice car. I want something that’s reliable.
MM (00:32:38):
I want something I can have for a long time. And then there are gonna be some people who say, give me a little Lexus all the way. Like, I want the gold plated gear shift, right? Like all the stuff, there’s just gonna be some people that are always gonna pick that top tier. Mm-Hmm.
MM (00:33:27):
Now, we never wanna deliver something our client doesn’t need, but like you can have packages that offer different levels that allow you to deliver at different levels. So you might have an entry level, you might have a bootcamp, an intensive, a three month where you’re gonna work with people 10 sessions in three months, right? And that’s gonna get you get them started. And that’s kind of your Corolla, that’s the silver level, right? Then your gold, it might be the bootcamp plus an additional 10 sessions, but those are once a month. So now you can say, Hey, this package, that’s your gold option, that’s your Camry that gets them a full year of working with you. Like how freaking awesome is that? And then your platinum, your Lexus is, maybe it’s the full year of coaching, plus they come and spend a day and a half with you somewhere or you, you know make an arrangement with a spa.
MM (00:34:17):
Like one of my platinum packages for my CEOs and and high level people is I will do an a day and a half retreat at Big Sky Montana. I used to live in Montana, we know Montana, like, you know, like the back of our hands. I’ve got a place out there where I can go, I can book it out. And basically we spend a day together and then either have a half day of whitewater rafting hiking or skiing depending on time of year and depending on their interests. Now, some people see that and that package is crazy expensive, right? Some people see that and go, I want that. Some people see that and go, I can’t afford that, but I want the middle package. And maybe as we work together, I can afford the big package next year. Like I used to think having a more expensive option might offend people.
MM (00:35:02):
It might hurt people’s feelings and if it does, they’re not your ideal client, right? What I’ve found is most of the time those higher level packages inspire them to know that you see something bigger for them. Mm-Hmm.
MM (00:35:49):
So he has an arrangement, arrangement with an Olympic training facility. So his big, you know, Lexus kind of platinum package is two days where he meets with a client, they hang out, they go work out, then they come back and dream some more, and then they go work out on this thing and then they dream some more and plan some more and then they go do this thing. So it’s like, think about dream about what would you love to do with your clients. It can be expensive, it can be amazing. And obviously they’re paying for your travel. So like, it can be whatever you want. I actually, one of my co coaching clients, a big thing happened for her in Paris. So twice a year she takes five to six of her clients to Paris. That’s a part of her big package is not only is it the trip, but it’s also like-minded people hanging out at the Eiffel Tower, that kind of stuff. So it really can be stuff that gets pretty exciting.
AJV (00:36:42):
Yeah, I know. I love that. And it, and that makes me think of two other quick questions. Yes. And I’m gonna pivot just a tiny bit. So I love it. I know that there are people listening to this going, yeah, that’s all’s awesome. Where do I find these people who wanna pay me $25,000? Right?
MM (00:36:59):
Right. Exactly. Where
AJV (00:37:00):
Do I find them? So I would say it’s like, where do you start? Like yeah. You know, for everyone who’s going, man, I’ve got a good coaching practice, but it’s like I do need to increase my prices. I de yeah, I do need to uplevel things because I’m giving away a lot for free that I’m not charging for. Yep. So in order to do that, like how do you find your ideal customer?
MM (00:37:21):
Right? I love that question. And it is so real, right? And it is so important. And I do think that, you know, one of the things that’s wild is especially when I work with people who are either in our program or thinking about entering our program they’ll ask me questions and I will, I will ask a follow-up question. And that is, are you getting paid for that coaching? Like, they’ll bring up a problem they’re having with a client and I’ll say, are you getting paid? No. I was like, well I have good news because once you start getting paid, those are free client problems.
MM (00:38:11):
Like, I had to find a place to start. But once those people started to pay, I realized like I don’t have to have 20 clients a month in order for this thing to work. If I’m pricing this right, I only need a few. That’s why I laugh sometimes at, you know, some of the coaching you, you probably laugh too, some of the promises, some of the coaching programs that you see in your Instagram feed where it’s like 30 clients by the end of the week for one-on-one coaching, and you’re like, why that h would somebody want 30 clients in a week? That’s nuts. Like, I wouldn’t want that. Like I’m like, do you, like I get why somebody would offer the moon, but like that just means you don’t know what you’re offering mm-hmm.
MM (00:38:59):
But as you start to, as you start to give yourself permission to charge for those things, right? It doesn’t take a lot for it to start to get traction. And, and I will say this, one of the things I’ll, I’ll just throw out another strategy that almost everybody when I, when they start working with people, they, they’ve all had that cringe. Like, I knew I shouldn’t offered to do this coaching for free or I knew I shouldn’t have you know, offered to do two sessions with this person cuz it’s brutal. But almost everybody has had at least one client where they’re like, oh, that’s what it is. This feels great, right? Mm-Hmm.
MM (00:39:45):
But I always say one of the best ways to find more clients that are ideal are to start with your ideal clients. Mm-Hmm.
MM (00:40:37):
I always say like, literally that is my prayer, Lord, help me help as many people as possible and be known by as few people as possible
AJV (00:41:39):
I love that because it’s like, instead of paying referral fees or affiliate fees, it’s like no, get more sessions. Give
MM (00:41:46):
Them what they more what they want. And I always say, listen,
AJV (00:41:49):
I love that
MM (00:41:49):
You get these in your back pocket no time limit. Yeah. So you get these and you don’t have to use them in three months. These are, you got nine one one status you can call because those people, those are your advocates, right? Yeah. Those are the people who are yelling about you, but those
AJV (00:42:05):
Are the people you want to still do call. Exactly right. This is in addition to being awesome customers, they’re your lead source. Yep. Right? And it’s like, why would you give them money and send them on their way? It’s like Exactly.
MM (00:42:16):
Plus. And there’s data, you’ve seen this probably, but there’s data that shows that if somebody wants to do something like that, like refer and you give them money that actually causes dissonance. Mm-Hmm.
AJV (00:43:02):
I love that. I think that’s awesome. And again, it’s, we’ve heard it a thousand times before, but we’ll hear it a thousand more times. It’s like, make your services so good that your customer force becomes your sales force. Right, right. That’s what we’re talking about here. Okay, so the other quick question I had, yeah. And then gonna pivot is I would love to hear your quick perspective on contract terms, right? Do you have contracts? Are they three months, six months, nine months, 12 months? What are your recommendations?
MM (00:43:31):
So I definitely have contract terms and I put the contract terms in my electronic invoicing. And basically those contract terms are reflective of the package. So it will be of basically, you know, saying, Hey, it’s for this amount of time. There’s other specifics and I’m not a lawyer, I don’t play one on tv. So, you know, we talk about some of those elements in our training. But one of the things that I speak to is, hey, if you are gonna cancel, if you need to cancel on a call, do it with at least 24 hours notice. And if you don’t, you will stand to forfeit that call. Mm-Hmm.
MM (00:44:16):
What I find is when those things are outlined in your contract, that sends the signal, Hey, this person’s a pro. This is not just like having coffee with my friend at Starbucks. This person is a pro, this is, this is intentionality, this is, you know, they’re professional, all these things, right? But what I also love to do is I love to have those things in my contract that are there to protect me, but they also oppose as gifts if I choose to give them mm-hmm.
MM (00:45:01):
Please reschedule this, blah, blah, blah. Now that isn’t our contract. I absolutely could say, yep, you lost it. And I mean, I have every right to do so. And it also allows me, I don’t, I very rarely get jack holes as clients. We’ve got a pretty good filtering. But if somebody was being a jack hole, I absolutely could adhere the contract. Sure. But I always say, if the boundaries are there, then it’s also a gift if I choose to give it. And that’s what we did. Sam knew what I would do, my assistant knew what we would do. She’s like, I know what Mitch will say. Do not worry about it. We’ll get you rescheduled. You will not lose this call. Take care of your kids family first. That’s what we believe. And that’s, I mean, and talk about what that did for this client. This client was like, oh my gosh, this is awesome. Just, you know, even more connection, trust, and loyalty. So yeah,
AJV (00:45:48):
I think that’s just again, you know, back to so many former episodes that we’ve had for all of you out there who are coaches or consultant speakers, it’s like, contract terms make a difference. Yeah. And it’s, those have a variety of things to ’em, but just make sure that they’re clear and set forth. Okay. So I’m gonna pivot just a little bit cuz we have just like five minutes left and there’s, I know there’s two, two more topics that I wanna talk about, you know, kinda high level. And you know, one of the things that, you know, I have found to be true, and so I would love just to hear your thoughts on this, for everyone who’s listening, listening is no matter what kind of coach you are, everyone does life coaching, right? And so I think it’s always so funny when people say, I’m a life coach, and I’m like, is it all coaching, life coaching,
MM (00:46:58):
So I love it. Oh my gosh. This is, this is where we could really talk for four hours. So one thing that I found, because I I, you know, in 2002, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, none of that existed. Cancel culture. Like you could tick somebody off, they might tell a friend or the newspaper, nobody will know about it. So it’s a, it’s a different era. Like we have to recognize this is a different era. Mm-Hmm.
MM (00:47:54):
Right. I’m not trying to say, if you don’t believe this, you’re wrong. Or if you don’t believe this, we can’t be friends. It’s just, Hey, I’m just trying to help. And I will often like with, we have two podcasts dream, think do and encouraging the encouragers. And in both of them, I’ll give them a heads up saying, Hey, we’re gonna get into some spiritual stuff. And if that is not your brand of vodka, just jump to another episode. No harm, no foul. And I’ll also say, I know in both cases, both audiences, you don’t have to believe what I believe, but that you’re more than likely to be open to talk about spiritual stuff. So that’s what I do is I say, Hey, listen, if that’s your not your brand of vodka, go to another episode. If you stick around, I hope you’re at least open to talk about spiritual stuff. If you are, I’m, I’m guessing since you’re still listening to this episode, we’re good to go. So we’re going for it. And what I find is, again, if I’m not focused on having people see that I’m right, I just wanna be helpful mm-hmm.
AJV (00:48:58):
Yeah. That’s so good for, yeah. Not just faith and spiritual conversations, but political conversations. Right. Race conversations. Because we
MM (00:49:08):
Need to have those conversations. Right. We need to be having those. I’ve also realized that there are some conversations you shouldn’t try to have on social media,
AJV (00:49:16):
Like most of of them,
MM (00:49:17):
AJV (00:49:50):
I, I love that because I think that this is a, a growing conversation of people are going, man, it’s like, I want that to be a part of the conversation. I feel like my clients are seeking it, but I don’t know what the boundaries are and I don’t know how to overstep it. And I think that’s a really great way. It’s like, hey, if you’re just focusing on helping of like, Hey, I don’t know if this will resonate with you, but this is something I go to, or this is something that I read, or it’s something that I saw or something I heard and it really helped me. Or I, I read this and I thought of you. It’s like always through, always through the lens of it. I just wanna help. I just wanna support and sharing it through your experience, not being preachy, but sharing it as like, Hey, regardless of where you’re at, I can only share what I’ve been through.
MM (00:50:32):
Yep. My experience
AJV (00:50:34):
Of helping and serving, that’s really, really good. And I,
MM (00:50:37):
I like nobody. God never forced anyone into heaven. He’s a gentleman, right? He loves people. And I think that’s the best way. Like that we can be a raging. Curiosity is love. Well bring excellence, charge for what we do. It’s a part of it, right? Mm-Hmm.
AJV (00:51:08):
Yeah. So good. And it’s like, I’ll drop another book out there. No. If y’all listening, have never read every good endeavor from 10 Keller. Yeah. I just love this book so much cuz it talks about how like we were created to create Yeah. We were created to work and somewhere along the lines work became a four letter word. And it’s not like work is good. Like somehow we turned it into bad. It’s like we were built for this. Yep. And built to receive abundance and goodness. And but man, you gotta work, right? We’re we do, we’re built for it. All right. Last question. I know we’re already one minute over, but I’m gonna go just like one minute more. I love
MM (00:51:44):
It. If you can do it, I can do it. Let’s do
AJV (00:51:46):
It. The coaching industry is booming. Yes. It’s love it. You know, if you just do a quick LinkedIn search, there will be more than 1.2 million people that pop up with a title of coach just in the United States. It’s estimated to do over 20 billion.
MM (00:52:04):
That’s with a b.
AJV (00:52:05):
MM (00:52:34):
I love it. So I think you’re exactly right. It’s interesting, you know, haven’t been in the industry for two decades. I’ve seen a lot of things come and go, seen some waves happen, see different things with the economy. It’s interesting because there’s a lot of people who are like we might have a recession coming. And it’s like, whoa, cool. Cuz people will need help navigating that. And what’s wild is, trust me, and you know, this, it, it’s amazing to me how many of my clients, their companies and their organizations are booming, but they feel bad about that. So they don’t talk about it.
MM (00:53:23):
So I always say, you know, we have to get ready for that. But I would say right now there is a wave of growth and awareness around coaching, which I find is exciting because there are a lot of coaches, but there are still billions of people. Now are all of those people hiring coaches? No, they’re not. But more I, more people are, and I would say one of the hardest things when I was first getting started was awareness of coaching at all. Mm-Hmm.
MM (00:54:05):
MM (00:54:51):
So AI helps you to deal with one of the biggest challenges of any content creator. And that is the blank page. Yeah. There’s nothing worth stand, you know, sitting there looking at a blank page, but chat G B T or you know, AI allows you to get started, right? But you gotta put your voice in there, you gotta put your own spin on it. You can never take something right from AI and put it out there. You gotta still have your voice. I also think it will probably eradicate the need for the lowest tier coach, that coach that is just offering one off coaching. Because one of the biggest things, I’m a good coach, right? And I ask good questions, but I know a big reason of why I am so, so successful is accountability and relationship. I know a lot of my people at a computer could ask a really good question that gets them thinking, but when the rubber meets the road, the it, that’s not gonna be what moves the needle.
MM (00:55:47):
That’s right. I’ve had so many of my clients tell me, the only freaking, you know, reason why I got this thing done was I knew Mitch was gonna be asking me did I get it done? And they’re like, I’m so glad I did. But that was the whole reason Mitch was gonna ask me. Mitch was gonna ask me. Those people aren’t gonna be affected. Yeah. But they’re not gonna look for the ai AI coach, the person who’s just like barely looking for coach, not really interested in really investing in themselves at all. Sure. That person’s gonna use an AI-driven coaching system, which, you know, I know they’re coming all of that stuff. So it’s yet one more reason why it’s so important to really get your systems in place and differentiate yourself from just that person who’s just doing the one-off from time to time coaching when you have a true business. I actually believe that AI is gonna drive a deep, deep need for authentic connection. So I think coaching, I think the wave for coaching, I think it will be some weird waters as these two waves hit. But I think for those people who are ready and are riding on top, I actually think it’s gonna unleash some of our biggest opportunities and our biggest impact especially as we’re ready for them.
AJV (00:57:00):
Oh, I totally agree. In fact, one of my favorite ing quotes is there are no good writers, only good editors,
MM (00:57:10):
AJV (00:57:11):
And
MM (00:57:12):
Ai. It’s very true. Ai
AJV (00:57:13):
I love that, is allowing content creators to be editors. Yes. Right. If you’re struggling without writer’s block or Yep. Trying to get that, it’s like, that is a great way to use, you know, chat g p t it’s like, be a great editor, right? Yep. Put your That’s
MM (00:57:29):
Exactly right. And you gotta get your voice in there because I do think, I mean, it is amazing what it can do. Like the prompts that you can put in there, it’s like, woo, it could be get pretty close to your voice, but people will know. Like that’s gonna be one of the things that’s always gonna differentiate you is what is your voice. And some of you might be like, well, I don’t know what my voice is. I’m just getting started. The only way you find your voice is continually putting it out there and you’ll find it, but don’t let the AI do it for you. Find that, get started with ai, you know, use it, that’s great, but find your voice as you use it. Don’t let it replace you.
AJV (00:58:05):
Not to mention just on this topic, there’s gonna be a whole new opportunity for coaches to coach people on how to use ai.
MM (00:58:11):
That’s some of the highest paid coaches right now is people who are navigating AI and helping organizations. I mean, it’s
AJV (00:58:18):
Great. There’s always going to be the need for someone to educate another human being. Yep. Because at the end of the day, it’s like, this is, you know, one of the things that we preach at Brain Builders Group is that pre ai, pre-chat, chat, G P t, people do not pay for information. They pay for organization and application. Yep. Right. And those are the two things that are always going to be available to coaches to do so. Yep. All right. We are now officially eight minutes over. I will stop, look at us clock now. Geez.
MM (00:58:49):
Throw the clock right out window
AJV (00:58:51):
And before we go, yeah, this has been such an awesome conversation. But Mitch has put something really cool together for everyone who is listening. So we started off the out this call saying, you know, how do you know if you would be a good coach? Like, how do you know? And so if you really wanna know the answers to those questions actually check out Mitch matthews.com/vaden, our last name v a d e n, so mitch matthews.com/vaden and he’s put together a whole little set of things to help you know if you would be a good coach. And then also just poke around mitch matthews.com, get connected to his podcast, get connected to him on social media, do all the things. And Mitch, thank you so much. This has been so helpful. So many good nuggets, and also just really fun. So thanks for being on the show.
MM (00:59:46):
I love it. You are such an amazing host and the time has flown by, so thank you so much. It’s been an honor and an absolute blast. So thank you for doing what you guys do.
AJV (00:59:54):
We love it. We love having these conversations and we love having these conversations that help all of you guys who are listening. So don’t be a stranger and come back. We’ll see you next time on the influential personal brand.
Ep 401: What You Need to Know About Becoming a Bestselling Author | Nena Madonia Oshman Episode Recap
RV (00:02):
Book deals, publishing bestseller lists. These are some of my favorite, favorite things to talk about. I mean, legitimately, this has become one of my, you know, passion projects to understand as an author. And you may not know this we, we say this sometimes, but a lot of times on this podcast, we don’t talk about book launches specifically. But as at the time of this recording, we have helped 14 of our clients become New York Times or Wall Street Journal bestselling authors. So 14 times we’ve done that. We’re actually in the middle of another launch this week. So who is a candidate for probably a Wall Street Journal. And so we, we might be increasing that number. And we know a lot about this, and we know a lot about selling books because when we go after bestseller lists we’re, we don’t let people buy their own books that, you know, some people would do that and just to try to hit a bestseller list.
RV (00:58):
We don’t do that. We, we teach people how to sell books. And so what I wanna talk about here is a couple key things to know about how to get the book deal specifically. And then also understanding a little bit about book launches. So the very first thing, and th this is a what has become a famous story around brand builders group. And I heard this story, third person, so I don’t actually know how true this story is, but I think it is true. And even if it’s not, the lesson is totally accurate. And as the way the story goes, Robert Kiyosaki, who is the bestselling author of several books, but became really famous for his book, rich Dad, poor Dad, apparently, was at, at an event one time, and this journalist came up to him and, you know, they were in a conversation and apparently at some point, she mentioned in the conversation, she said, you know, I don’t, I don’t personally think your book is that well written.
RV (02:01):
I, and she was just kind of saying like, it, it’s you, you know, obviously you sell a lot of books, but it, it actually feels like it could be written better. And Robert’s response apparently was, he said, well, that’s okay, because you have to remember, it’s not called New York Times Best Writing Author, it’s New York Times Best Selling Author,
RV (03:04):
And your writing had to have personally influenced in a deep way, other people who were in the group. But this was this amazing group that we came to. I posted about it on Instagram, you can go check it out if you wanna read a little bit about it and see some of the, the highlights. But anyways, we were there and, you know, talking about the, the importance of this, right? And, and that you have to sell books because writers write, editors edit publishers, publish distributors, distribute retailers, retail, but nobody actually sells the book. Like nobody has the job of saying, I’m gonna sell this book. I’m gonna make sure a lot of people buy this book. And it is really ironic that no one has that job. And so who does that job fall back on? That job falls back on you, the author, the messenger as, as we refer to you as Mission Driven Messenger.
RV (03:57):
So that falls back on you. And so that is one of the 14 classes that we teach at Brand Builders Group, right? We’ve got these 14 classes in our, that make up our curriculum. One of ’em is called Bestseller Launch Plan, and we’ve taken a lot of people through that class. And we’ve had 14 clients become bestselling authors Louis Howes and Amy Porterfield, and Ed Mylet and Eric Thomas, et the hiphop preacher Tom and Lisa Bilyeu. You know, these are some of the, some of our more well-known names. But then we’ve had other clients hit the list that are, you know, more like up and commerce. But regardless, the, the big epiphany, the big realization that you have to have if, if you wanna become a bestselling author, is that you have to sell well, and I would say there’s, there’s actually two things here.
RV (04:44):
The first is realizing that becoming a bestselling author is about sales. Okay? It’s not it, it is also about writing, or it can be about writing that sometimes books take off and hit the bestseller list because they’re really well written and people share them around. But one of the data points that I shared with the group this mastermind group, I’ll, I’ll share it, I’ll share it with you here. Because our, our team analyzed this piece of data was that of all the books that have hit the New York Times bestseller list on the advice how to list specifically, it’s a weekly list. 2023 year to date at the time of this recording, that 98% of those books hit the list in the first week, which means and actually I think that was for the previous 24 months is what we looked at.
RV (05:36):
So the, the no, actually it was year to date. It was 2023 year to date. So what that means is people aren’t even reading the book, right? Like when it hits the bestseller list, it’s not, cuz people have read the book, the book isn’t even out yet. So those are the instant New York Times bestsellers, they, they happen in the first week. That’s because of all the pre-sales that happen. And that’s one of the big strategies that we help authors with is legitimate ethical incentive based strategies to help get people excited about your book. And so you generate all the pre-sales and all the pre-sales count on week one. And so that’s why most books that hit the bestseller list hit the first week. But it sort of dispels the myth that it’s about, you know, writing a great book. Now, you should still write a great book cuz that’s what you’re doing.
RV (06:21):
And that’s if you want to change lives you should write a great book. And also because over the long tail, which is really the game to play, is not just hitting a bestseller list for a week or two, but really having a perennial bestseller that sells hundreds of thousands or millions of copies that’s entirely about writing a, a a, a great written book. So, couple couple ideas there. The, the, the second thing that I wanna talk about on this topic related to getting, getting big book deals and doing book launches is that in our world, social media, what we have learned is that social media and PR are not the answer to selling lots of books. They’re not typically that is the only strategy that authors have. And a lot of publishers, and we’re starting to talk to a lot of publishers, a lot of publishers are actually starting to refer people to us.
RV (07:16):
Just cuz our track record is getting out there, right? I mean, we had two books last year that pre-sold over a hundred thousand units. Two of our clients did that. And you know, we’ve, we’ve got a lot of, a lot of clients that are doing these really great launches and they’re following a system, right? They’re not buying their own books, it’s, they’re not faking things. They’re, they’re just following our, our proven system and methodology to do that. And it’s working. And part of why our system works is because we know that social media and PR is not the way to sell a lot of books. I’m not, now don’t hear what I’m not saying. I’m not saying that you shouldn’t use social media. I’m not saying that you shouldn’t do pr. What I’m saying is that that ranks very, very low on the list of things that actually sells and moves books.
RV (08:01):
So we all tend to think, oh, you know, somebody has, you gotta have millions of followers to become a bestselling author. You don’t. I’m case in point, I’ve never had millions of followers, I’ve never had millions of followers. I’ve never been one of the top social media presence, you know, one of the, you know, people on social media. So it’s really more about your offline relationships. It’s really what it’s about is your offline relationships. It’s very difficult to get people online to just buy anything. And the same is true for pr, right? I’ve been on national TV multiple times. It’s a great thing. You should do it, you should try to do it, it should be a part of your strategy. But if you think that getting on national TV is gonna make you a bestselling author, let me just save you the, the, the heartbreak.
RV (08:46):
It’s not like there, there are times where, you know, crazy things happen and phenomenons take off. Or if you’re able to be on national TV every day for like a few weeks or something like that you know, or if you’re a celebrity and you get on every major TV show, great. But, you know, I’ve been on, I’ve been on Fox and Friends example, we’ve had clients be on the Today Show. Good Morning America. Very often we’ll see that these huge national appearances, these huge appearances will, I mean often if the a thousand books would be a lot like moving a thousand books on a national TV segment would be a good number. But that’s nowhere near what it takes to, to become a New York Times bestselling author. At least not according to our data, which is part of what our team is doing, is we’re trying to understand how many units does it take to hit the New York Times?
RV (09:36):
And it, it takes a ton, a ton more than that. So you know, social media can be good, PR can be good. But we, the, the number we use just to share it with you, is 0.001%. That’s what we estimate is the percentage of somebody’s audience on social media that will convert to be book buyers. Which means for every million followers you have, you’ll sell a thousand books. You say that again, for every million followers you have, we estimate that that’ll move about a thousand books. The reason is because when you post on social, not a million people see it, right? The biggest problem is that it’s not a million people who see it. If you have a million people, you might only have, you know, a hundred thousand people see that. Of the a hundred thousand that see that a very small fraction will actually consume the entire piece of content, then a fraction of that would actually go to a page and then a fraction of that would actually buy.
RV (10:30):
And so it gets whittled down very, very quickly. Now we do use social media like our clients our private clients, we give them a 75 day like social media posting template because you have to do it. You still have to, to, to sell books in every way possible, but social media and PR are not gonna be the things that move the needle to becoming massive bestselling authors. You gotta use offline mechanisms and offline relationships and, and live events and all of these various things that we, we, we do. So that’s the second thing I want you to know about this. And then the last thing, and, and this has become a A B B G mantra, there’s a few things that we have around here that we call B B G mantras because we say them so often. And if you’ve been following me or AJ or our company for any amount of time, you’ll hear us say things like your most powerfully positioned to serve the person you once were, right?
RV (11:22):
That is one of our B B G mantras. That’s an original quote that we have shared that has become a part of our culture. We also say, if you have diluted focus, you get diluted results. That’s a B B G mantra. One of our BBG mantras is we say build relationships before you need them. Build relationships before you need them. So we have all of these mantras that we just are, it’s cuz it’s, we’re repeating ’em over and over and over for people to get well. We have an important B bg mantra as it relates to selling a lot of books. And as it relates specifically to bestseller launch plan. And I wanna share it with you here, and I want you to get a pen and write this down. Whether, and, and whether you’re a first time author or an experienced author, whether this is you know, your your first book, your second book or your hundredth book, whether you’re traditionally published and you have a literary agent and you know, a big, a big publishing company or if you’re self-published or if you’re using a hybrid publisher. And we, we have done all three. We use, we are, we have clients that do all three. There’s advantages and disadvantages to all three of them, but regardless of what topic you write about, what the format of your book is, the length, your experience, level of an author, this is something that you really need to know right up front and it, and it matters tremendously. Bestseller lists don’t change lives.
RV (12:50):
Bestseller lists don’t change lives, but books do. Bestseller lists don’t change lives, but books do. We love aiming for the bestseller list. It’s important. It, it, it matters in some arenas, which I’ll talk about in a a second, but the ultimate measure of the success of a book is not how much money was made, how many units were even sold, right? It is the, the impact that it made in the world, the impact that it made on other people’s lives. Ultimately, the end goal of a book should be that, right? And it’s not about the author and it’s not about the publisher and it’s not about a bestseller list, it’s about the readers. That’s what writing books is all about. It’s about the readers and it’s about creating a transformation in their life. And that is the ambitious, aspirational, worthwhile goal and pursuit that I think you should have as an author.
RV (13:47):
And as I said, we’ve, we’ve done this several times, 14 times, we’ve helped clients count counting myself become a New York Times bestselling author or Wall Street Journal bestselling author. It’s a great goal to have, but it doesn’t, it doesn’t change lives, right? It might change your life, and I’ll talk about that here in a moment. But it doesn’t change anyone else’s lives. In fact, we did a study called the Trends in Personal Branding, national Research Study. And you can actually go download this for free. We spent tens of thousands of dollars to do this. If you go to rory vaden dot com and then you click on free trainings and then you scroll down, you’ll see trends in personal branding, national research study. So you can download this study. And this was a very intensive study. So this was a PhD led academic research study.
RV (14:33):
It’s empirically validated, it’s weighted to the US census. So it’s a, it’s a study of the us general population, right? And you, you know so one of the questions we asked in that study is we said of how much do each of the following factors influence your purchasing decisions, right? So this is a question we’re asking to consumers, the general American population. So for our international listeners, it may not be the same in your country, but in the US and, and we asked about all these criteria. We said if they have a YouTube channel, if they have a large social media following, if they have a podcast, if they speak for a living if they have a nice website, we listed all of these things. And there was one entire section just related to books. And it said one of the options was a, somebody has a self-published book.
RV (15:26):
Another option was someone has a traditionally published book. Another option was they are a Wall Street Journal bestselling author. And another option was they are a New York Times bestselling author. Here’s what’s fascinating, a to the average American citizen, there was zero delineation between a self-published book, a traditionally published book, a Wall Street Journal bestselling book, or a New York Times bestselling book. In other words, people on the street don’t care because they don’t know the difference. They don’t know the difference between an Amazon bestseller and a New York Times bestseller. And there’s a stark difference, but they don’t know it cuz they’re not authors and they don’t live in this world. So your customers don’t really care. What they care about is themselves. They care about can you help them. Now that said, what does matter? It does matter to be a bestselling author in among the industry, right?
RV (16:28):
Bestselling authors get higher speaking fees. They’re more likely to get booked on national tv. They’re more likely to get into to on big podcasts and to get invited to private masterminds. But they’re not more likely to, if people are not more likely to buy the that book just because that person’s a bestselling author unless they know the author, right? But that’s not because they’re bestselling author, that’s because they’ve heard of the author before. And so it is important, it’s still worthwhile as a personal brand. It’s, it’s worth a lot of money to be able to get on these big shows and get invited to these exclusive groups and speak on these big stages. That’s, that’s worth a lot, but not to your customer, right? They don’t know any difference. It just gives you more ability to get in front of more customers. So that matters.
RV (17:12):
And, and that’s what I want you to just remember, right? At the end of the day, this isn’t about bestseller lists. Best seller lists, don’t change lives. What books do. And so regardless of if you think you could be a bestselling author or whatever that number looks like to you, all authors should want to have as many people as possible read their book. That’s why you did the work of writing the book in the first place. And so I also would encourage you not to be so heartbroken or caught up or mixed up in whether or not you hit a bestseller list. If that’s a goal of yours, you should definitely talk to us, right? You should go to free brand call.com/podcast
RV (17:49):
And you should request a call with us because we know a lot about that. But whether you hit it or not is not the ultimate goal. The ultimate goal for a mission-driven messenger is and should be to change lives, to help people, to serve your readers. Not to just hit bestseller list, but to actually make a difference. So I hope this helps you in your journey. If you really are interested in becoming a bestselling author, request a call or share this episode with somebody you know who is an author or wants to be an author. I think they’ll get a lot out of it. And so I hope you consider sharing it with them and we’ll catch you, catch you right back here next time on the Influential Personal Brand Podcast.
Ep 400: How to Get a Big Book Deal with Nena Madonia Oshman
RV (00:02):
All right, my friend, you are about to meet somebody who changed my entire life. Her name is Nena Madonia Ashman, and she is somebody who I have known now since I was in my early twenties. So I once had the dream to become a New York Times bestselling author, and I had no idea how to do that. And I was at the bookstore, and I saw in the back of several business bestsellers the endorsements authors were thinking their literary agents. And I kept seeing this one literary agent mentioned over and over and over. And so I tried to get this agent to call me back, no response, sent emails, no response, sent fax messages, no response. And one day I flew to Dallas, Texas at three in the morning. I went to their office and I sat in the hallway because I thought if I could catch this woman walking into her office, maybe I could get five minutes.
RV (01:03):
And in that day, walked Nena Madonia Ashman, who she was Nena Madonia back then. So that’s still kind of how I, I know her. But I handed her my book proposal. I said, I promise I’m not a stalker. Although I kind of was at that point, and I was like, I have this dream. I wanna write a book. I know that I want you to represent me. This is like the firm and, and the whole thing. And she was like, well, we can’t work with you because you don’t have a big enough platform, but gimme your proposal and I’ll give you some advice. That started basically a two and a half year relationship of trying to get ahold of her, and then her giving me little bits of advice, us following it, me and aj like coming up with ideas and incorporating it.
RV (01:44):
And then some of you know the story. We in 2000, and I forget what year that would’ve been, it would’ve been nine, 2010. We sold the we signed with Nena. She then shopped our book proposal to several New York publishers. We had multiple bids. We sold that book. And then in February of 2012, that book came out as Take the Stairs and it hit number one on the Wall Street Journal bestseller list, and number two on the New York Times. And I’ve never done a public interview with Nena. And so without further ado, here she is. Nina, welcome to the show, friends.
NM (02:22):
Yay. Thank you. How fun, Nina. You can just call me Nena, right? There’s no n for the last name.
RV (02:28):
Everyone knows when you’re talking literary agency, you say, Nina, they know who you be talking about. They know like
NM (02:33):
That. They know. So, Rory, I have to tell you, I love talking about the story of how we met. And do you know that 15 years ago to, to the week, this week, we went to breakfast. And so that 3:00 AM flight we had like in the, you came in the spring, and I was like, oh my goodness, this author isn’t eager. He did send the fax. I did receive the fax and the blanketed emails, you know, back then the, you know, info emails that you sent, but you came, you, you said your cu you came then that day. And I, it was eight o’clock in the morning and you were just sitting there. Oh, it was, so now looking back, I remember thinking, wow, he’s very determined. But now I’m thinking, no, you are the coolest guy. I know. Coolest author. I know. But in June of 2008, that’s when we went to breakfast and we had this complete download of here’s what you need to do, here’s the strategy. You’re a speaker, here’s, you know, again, be what becoming a bestselling author would be. And I can’t believe it. I just thought about that 2008, that’s there. You, it, yes, it took two years. But Rory, you, I mean you and aj, what you guys have built with B b G and everything. I’m just so honored to be a part of the process, but I know you win. I knew you win.
RV (03:47):
That’s so funny. Well, that’s what I would love to hear, I think to talk about today, because I just, as I take myself back to the 15 years ago and it was earlier than that, that I was even trying to get ahold of you,
NM (05:07):
Yeah. Well you know what’s so interesting now and again, like, you know, our, like where books are, it’s, they stand the test of time. So to think about where, yes, it is a tedious medium, but it’s the most incredible and influential medium that is publishing. Publishing is you know, you own it. It’s your copyright, it’s your words. And I think it’s the most impactful. So what I love about the book and the idea, you can come to me with a concept, but really, it’s almost like your, your baby, right? Even if you haven’t birthed a baby, or, you know, it’s a, it’s a a different, it’s an additional business vertical for you. But I think even when you came to me was, what was so interesting about you is that you were speaking, you were the top speaker in your field.
NM (05:57):
You were sharing this mess, mess message of take the stairs, but it took two and a half years to get it sold. And that process of a literary agent, right, is, you know, by definition we help authors meet publishers and get a book deal. But there’s so much that happens before, during, and after that book deal process that I think is so important. And I think, Rory, you’re the perfect case study of, you know, yes, being focused on finding an agent, finding the right agent that fits you, being focused on really honing in on the content of what you’re gonna include in the book that may not necessarily be in your speaking platform. And then focusing on the book manuscript content. So then making it a bestseller. I mean, you really worked so hard and did that book, did your take the stairs come out in 12 or 10?
NM (06:48):
12? I can’t 12. Okay. So if you can think about it, you met us in 2007, 2008. We worked with you for two years. You got a mag massive book deal for a first time author. You used that to then invest in the book process and in the tour and the marketing, and also to hone in on the messaging that is included in the book that impacts your audience. And then when the book was published, that’s when the real work began. And you did a bus tour and you, you launched and marketed that book beautifully to then now flash forward, where are we? 11 years later, that book still stands the test of time and it’s yours. Mm-Hmm.
RV (08:05):
Yeah. Well, thank you. And I, I love that. And, and just to, so to highlight a few of the pro, so you said that earlier, what is a literary agent? So basically you have a New York publisher who gives the, give the authors a book deal. Usually those publishers are going to choose their books based on relationships they have with agents because they know that agents help vet the authors out and help clarify and do a lot of that work to like, I guess create a concentrated focused message and a plan. And then you have to create a book proposal, which is the, what I didn’t understand was that basically the book proposal is your sales tool that as the author, I have to create that tool to get with you, but to give to you so that you can take that tool and walk into an editor of a major publisher and say, here’s the book idea.
RV (08:58):
Here’s the author, here’s the plan, here’s why you should sell it. But in order to get there, you have to do all the work of building the platform and narrowing the idea and working on the premise and developing, developing the audience. So it’s kind of like you go, you need to get an idea, you shape that idea into a proposal, you get an agent, the agent helps you, you know, modify the proposal, have a tight proposal, go to a publisher, sign a book deal, write a manuscript, then you publish it, promote it, and then that just goes on forever. So is that kinda like a pretty accurate, you
NM (09:30):
Know what, yeah. Come, I’ll hire you. I think it’s, I think what I was trying to focus on is like being a literary agent is, is yes. You know, helping an author kind of manage the process, almost being like the hub, the authors, the c e o and the publisher is a conduit of, you know, and, and the printer and the distributor, and the agent is almost like, you know, like the c m o of like organizing and coordinating all the efforts from the idea through and beyond the publication. But, you know, I always like to think it’s like, yes, I’m a sale, I’m a salesperson of your proposal and your concept, but really the author is the best salesperson of their concept. And so, yes, you do need an agent and you do need a publisher. But there’s so many ways to publish now that yes, honing in on getting a book proposal is ultimately what helps you set up kind of your brain map, your brand map for what the book will be, like, a book blueprint.
NM (10:33):
But to be honest, it, you know, the where, where you, and I don’t know what your expectations were when you started the process, but where you start is almost not necessarily where you end up in terms of the publishing process, but you’ll exceed your expectations if you have someone like an agent walking you through the process. So in a way, yes, you can get a publisher, you can get a distributor, you can get a printer, you can, you can have someone help you, you know, coauthor your concept. But all those moving pieces I think are really kind of, they’re crucial when you have someone like an agent to help you coordinate all the all the different aspects.
RV (11:13):
Yeah. And so, so let’s start with, I think one of the first questions, and I struggled with this for a long time, was how do you know if you should traditionally publish or if you should self-publish? And I guess to me, I almost think of three buckets. I think of traditional publishers, I think of hybrid publishers, and then I think of self-publishing, which is basically like Amazon, k d p these days where you just like upload a file and you have a book at least an ebook there. How do you know as an author when I should go to Amazon and like self-publish my book, when I should pay money to a publisher to help me produce an asset, which is like hybrid publishing where I own all, all the rights, but I’m still, I have to pay a lot of money to get them to produce it. Or I should go to a traditional publisher where they’ll pay me and they’ll pay all the costs, but like, which way is the right way to go? Like, I know you get that a lot. That’s a huge part of what you do is help people sift out that question, right? Yes.
NM (12:08):
Yes. And several B B G clients are, are now a part of the, the whole mind brand of understanding what that is. I think the Rory, I think it’s three things. It’s understanding the time and I, and I really thinking, okay, do I need to publish this tomorrow? The second thing is the resources. What do I, how can I publish this tomorrow, right? If say, your, your idea is so ready to go and you wanna publish it tomorrow, do you have the resources to support you doing that? And then the audience, do you have the audience? So it’s the three things of time, resources, and audience that will help you determine which route to go, which publishing route. I think that you know, there is no wrong way to publish, but there is a wrong way to promote and to market.
NM (13:01):
And I think that for an, for an author, you have to be almost like thinking about a bi, creating a business plan for the book so that you can see, well, yes, maybe my book needs to be published tomorrow, but asking the really hard questions, does it, does, does it need to be published tomorrow? Do I need to, you know, take my time to develop the audience? Do I need to take the time to find the a a really a good collaborator to help me hone in on the actual words on the page? And so I think putting it into those buckets and then almost ranking them. So like, you know, if you’re eager to get it published tomorrow, well then, all right, other things are gonna probably you know, you need to kind of, kind of put, put the lever, push the lever on the marketing, and push the lever on the you know, the audience to make sure that all those kind of aspects work.
NM (13:54):
But then if you’re like, oh, I need to actually build my audience. Well, maybe the time lever kind of kind of backs down, and then you push, push more on the audience. I don’t know if I’m making sense with that, but all the whole point is that you have to think of those three key factors to identify, all right, well, if I don’t have an audience, well then my book’s not really gonna change lives and stand the test of time. So let me wait on that and then maybe find a collaborator that can help me massage that. And then also my audience will help me with the resources because they’ll tell me and dictate what I should really be focusing on with the book concept. So it almost like
RV (14:28):
Sync those, sync those up with the three, so you have timeline, resources, and audience. Yeah. So if you’re gonna traditionally publish, that means a longer timeline.
NM (14:38):
So I, I love the buckets that you put that in. The three publishing buckets, the traditional hybrid and self-publishing, I do think there’s like these gray areas in between. Sure. So it’s almost like there’s five, but yeah. To put it into those, to, to sync that up. I think publishing traditionally takes the longest. And but yet as you’re taking the longest to build your audience and build the, the resources around that, so you can create kind of like the business around, around the, the traditional publishing space. And then on the opposite end, if you’re thinking about self-publishing, well, you can just do that tomorrow and, you know, see what happens. It’s almost like if the self-publishing part is probably the, the least amount of time, resources and audience where, and then on the other side, the traditional is like, no, you, you need to take your time and also take your time with the audience and, you know, build the resources
RV (15:29):
Mm-Hmm.
NM (15:43):
They’re looking for authenticity. So it can, it can look like you need 30,001 Instagram followers. But that’s not it. It doesn’t have to be the, the, the number on your social media you know, LinkedIn posts or likes or Facebook’s likes. It doesn’t have to look like that. It can be what your audience is, is craving from you and what you crave to share with your audience. And that authenticity is a solution that the publisher looks for to secure a deal. So I mean, right now I have an a veteran author like you who I am pitching right now, and he’s had six books on the New York Times bestseller list. And he is, he can, he, he can take his pick of whoever publisher he wants to work with, but he’s a guy that’s thinking about, okay, well who’s gonna be my best partner?
NM (16:41):
But for a first time author, you know, they’re, they’re looking, it, you know, you’re kind of, I almost think like the second book is almost like the, the best kind of way of like, what, what publishers look for because you’re the most attractive first time authors have the hardest because, you know, they have to kind of develop their own platform and plan and proposal like, and, and really present this presentation to a publisher so that the publisher really falls in love with them. And so you’re kind of like on the, on the selling block of like, who, you know, who will take me. But at the same time, it’s the publisher looks at like your authenticity. But then the second book, I’m going on this tangent cuz it, I will have a
NM (17:30):
So that number of the social media, you know, saying that 30,001 you know of, of your followers on Instagram it’s what are they saying on there, right? What are they, how are you reacting to them? And how are, how are the published? How are the author? How are the, how is the, ooh, what are you saying to your audience? Audience? What is the audience saying? Back to you, back to you. So it’s, again, it goes back to the authenticity. I know I’m like going all over the place, but I think it’s like, yes, how do you make yourself attractive? It’s by being, by having the idea that’s the most authentic to you
RV (18:04):
Now. So authenticity a big part of it. Now, audience, I mean, when you look at the, the, the size of the advance you get and you go, some people get a $20,000 advance, some might get a hundred thousand, a few might get, you know, 300,000 and fewer still would get a million plus is basically the delineation point there. The audience size,
NM (18:34):
It’s the, it is the genre of which you are writing your book. It’s what the book genre is.
RV (18:43):
Oh, that’s interesting. It’s
NM (18:45):
The risk that the publisher wants to take on that author. If you’re a first time author, the risk is higher. And it’s also the, you know, like the flurry, the enthusiasm, the excitement. I mean, I’ve done a lot of books that, you know, are so timely that if you published it this year, you know, it would, it would be a huge success. But maybe in 10 years it may not be. You know, there’s always kind of like a publishing cycle in terms of like what’s like a hot idea and a hot topic. But I had never really think about the trends. I always think about what the author is saying is how the author is trending with their audience. And so, and you know, your audience doesn’t have to be big. It just has to be yours. It has to be, you know, someone that you are talking to and whether you know, that’s online or it’s speaking or you know, you’re on TV or you know, you’re, you’re blogging. I think it’s just what are you saying and how is the audience responding back to you? But yeah, so I think it’s, again, the genre, it’s the, the enthusiasm and the flurry and the excitement of whatever the concept is based on the timing of when you’re selling that. And and then really it’s just like, again, I go back to like what you’re saying to your own audience.
RV (20:10):
What about, so what are agents looking for? Is it, would it be the same things? Or if you go like, cuz you know, you got, alright, that’s what publishers are looking for and that’s how they’re paying. And for those of you listening that if you don’t know how it works, an agent gets a percentage of the advance. So they’re incentivized. The, the incentives are aligned with you to go, they wanna sell it for the biggest advance cuz then they get, that’s how they get paid. So what are you looking for as an agent to go, all right, you’ve worked with all these authors, people are coming at you constantly and you’re going, how do you sift through the pile of emails and the unsolicited manuscripts and the phone calls and the, you know, people to go, this is who I’m gonna work with.
NM (20:57):
I’m always looking for someone that can communicate some their idea flawlessly. I’m looking for the obscure that everything needs, that everyone needs to know. And you know, it’s like the, it’s, it’s funny cuz it’s every agent. I don’t, I can’t speak for other agents, but I think for me, if I believe if they, if the author believes in their concept so much, then I know I can get on board and I know I can sell them. I have a hundred percent track record of actually closing deals. Not to like, you know, just, you know, shut my shoulders off. But I think for you, Rory, you’re the perfect example. Take the stairs was something that you believed so much in, you got me on board, well, let me help you get other people on board. Let me get a publisher. Let me get you in front of people that can really help you make your dream come true. So I think as me as an agent, I always like to kind of just talk to the author and sometimes that pitch, I know the traditional way of doing it is you know, writing a letter, writing a query letter. But I think it’s just, you know, using referrals and making sure that that, that you’re knocking on the right door and, and that you’re, the agent not only pays attention, but that you, you’re so passionate about the idea that you can convince me that it’s a great idea. And so I’m working with a
RV (22:18):
You recommend people flying to wait outside of your office door
NM (22:24):
I rem I mean, that day
RV (22:25):
I would recommend that as
NM (22:27):
In that suit I will, it was a brown suit. I mean, I cannot believe I remember that anyway, but yeah, no, I don’t know if I recommend that. But I do think it’s fun to do something really clever. I mean, I do know of another author actually it was you,
RV (22:55):
Don’t, we shipped, we shipped her, this was AJ’s idea, but we, this was after we had opened a relationship with you, but we were having a hard time kind of like getting you back on the phone. You know, that first time you gave me feedback, you gave me a lot of feedback, which was helpful and painful, but, but then getting you back the second time to go, hey. And so we sent you instant oatmeal, instant pudding, instant coffee, instant jello. Basically we went to the store and anything instant we could find and we put it in a basket with the book proposal and a note and we shipped it to, to Nena. And it, the note said, hopefully by using these products, you’ll get a few extra minutes in your calendar to, you are no AJ proposal.
NM (23:37):
No aj. And it did. It did. And it was amazing. So, no, I mean, I think it’s, and I, but I think it has to be a fit, right? Like you, I I, I’m not a fit for everyone because I’m very direct and very specific and sometimes go all over the place like I have on this conversation. But if I treat my authors like family, and I see not just the value in their one book concept, I like to see that they have many book ideas that they want to position and that they have, they, they are so passionate not only about writing books, but they’re passionate about communicating and, and articulating in words. And writing is so different than any other medium, and it’s the most gratifying for the reader. And that’s what I look for. I look for how the reader can be impacted by the author’s concept.
NM (24:25):
And then I see, you know, again, it can be, I, I like to see the multitude of books that can come out of the one concept. And yeah, I mean I primarily do nonfiction. I have done fiction and I love fiction, but I, I think every agent is different and it’s a definitely acquired taste. But to me, my authors, I have been with them for five books or two books or, you know, again, we’re there, there’s so many amazing people and amazing agents that can help bridge the gap and, and ease all kind of like confusion about what publishing is, but also that can champion your idea when you don’t want to.
RV (25:05):
Yeah. Yeah. I mean it, it’s, it is like, I mean, it’s, it’s like having a child. I mean, you put your whole life into the passion concept. It’s like, you might not need to get on a plane and do it, but you gotta be willing to do it, right? I mean, we emptied the last dollars we had in our checking account and a hundred percent of the advance we went all in on the idea. And that is kind of what it takes, I think, to get the attention of a top literary agent and to do the work it takes to craft a great premise and a proposal and to capture the attention of you know, a major publisher and then most of all to do the work it takes to tell the world about the book once you create it. I mean, that, that, that was the part, it was like, it was three, it was like three mountains. The first mountain was crafting the idea and getting the agent, like, just getting that. Then the second mountain was getting the publisher and writing the manuscript, and then the third mountain is actually marketing and promoting it. And it was like, I just had no idea, you know, I’m halfway up the first mountain feeling exhausted, being like, I’m kid, you’re, if I could go back, I’d be like, kid, you’re not even close. Like, you might as well like just gear up for the ride. Like we got a long way to go.
NM (26:24):
Well, and, but then you’re, you’re neglecting the fact that you gotta go down the mountain and then it doesn’t plateau. It’s up to you. After you reach that third mountain, it’s, you get to determine what the landscape looks like. So you can make it rocky, you can make it a plane, you can go back up the mountain and have another really tall peak and see the view from, from the fourth mountain, from the fifth mountain, and really reap the rewards of seeing your book turn into a movie. Seeing your book in multiple different languages, merchandise, I mean, there’s so many rights that happen after that third, there’s so many peaks that happen after that third peak. Mm-Hmm. And that’s where the fun begins. So I think that’s why like agents are Sherpa to use this example. You know, they’re Sherpa and we’re trekking along with you.
NM (27:12):
The author still has to carry the load, the, the, the author has to, you know, really the, it’s, it is heavy at times, but we’re right alongside you and we can also support and champion and, and you know, we’ve been there before. So, and I think every book looks different. Every author looks different. And I do think that like, you know, even for you Rory, like, you know, embarking on another journey with that book when hopefully whenever it comes out, we’re very excited to see what Adrian mm-hmm.
RV (27:55):
Aboutt, let’s talk about some of those cuz like that Fourth Mountain, the foreign deals, the you know, merchandise, the movie rights, that, that, that’s something I know that you’re really passionate about. And that’s something that I think a lot of authors are leaving on the table, whether they self-publish or they traditionally publish. They kind of get the book out there and it takes so much energy to climb those first three mountains. They’re like, I’m sick of my book. I mean, we call it, we call it the book Launch Hangover because it’s like, I don’t, I’m so sick of by the end of it, you’ve done 150 interviews, you’re like, I don’t ever want to hear about Take the Stairs again. Like, I’m done. But like you say, that’s really when the fun begins. So what are all the other derivative rights that a book can be turned into, and what are some of the ones that, you know, authors should be paying attention to that they’re not, or agents sh should be? Because like, there’s probably a whole bunch of things, even with Take the Stairs that we’ve never even explored or exploited. Like we do have a lot of foreign, foreign deals, but I think a lot of authors just move on to the next book and the next book and they don’t kind of like squeeze all the juice out of the one that they have.
NM (28:59):
Yeah. Well I think it’s, I think that’s really astute. They do move on to the next book, but I also think it’s like you keep the wheels turning, you keep it running while you’re moving on to other book concepts and other things that you’re working on. But I would just wanna speak to like the author who with the Hangover Yeah. Like you still have to kind of move, you still have to keep working. Yeah. And so even if you’re hungover, you gotta keep moving. So the thought is that the, the author may be tired, but the reader probably hasn’t even noticed Yeah. What you’re doing and where it is. And so you’ve gotta keep it fresh. And that’s where I think an agent can help saying, Hey, you know, you did great on that interview, don’t you? I I’ve noticed that the sales are actually spiking.
NM (29:40):
I noticed that this region is looking for someone again with, you know, speaking engagements. Let’s bring you out to say the authors in the Midwest. Let’s bring you out to LA and see if we can bring in you know, speak to the you know, like an insurance company or something. But to, to talk about the derivative, additional derivative rights, I think you have to keep the wheels going on selling, promoting, you know, working on that particular concept to see what comes around, I think you know, motivate, like the games you know, there’s, there’s many authors that this happens again, you can have a vision of like, oh, I wanna do a board game like Monopoly. And then it turns into like, UNO, but at least you have the concept and the, the blueprint to say, oh, I wanna do something with derivative rights, and then it turns into games. But that’s one gaming you know, t-shirts, hats you know, that’s a whole like line journals, workbooks again, foreign deals ebook foreign deals are significant. And then audible originals. So you can take a concept and then what’s
RV (30:44):
That
NM (30:44):
Audible originals or any kind of audio that’s separate from, it’s like an enhanced audio. So it’s separate from the book, but it’s still kind of derived from the book. And you can you know, take a concept, say a chapter and turn that into like, you know, a mini podcast. Maybe it’s episodic, maybe it’s you know, kind of more curriculum. But yeah, no, you can, you can turn it into speaking, you can turn it into coaching and curriculums and certifications. I could go on. Do I need to stop or I could
RV (31:18):
NM (31:45):
So number one, I always say like, slow your role, focus on the book concept first, and then you can think about journal and workbooks because you want the book itself that you’ve sold to live and thrive. And then have the audience talk back to you of what they’re looking for while feeding them things. You know, feeding them little kind of freebies to see, okay, should I do a workbook or journal or a different audio? Audio or a documentary? But I think in terms of like the workbook part of it the, in terms of what the publisher owns, it depends on how you’ve negotiated the rights and the terms and the contract. And you know, again, you can, you can limit them to just owning verbatim text, hardcover, electronic and audio. Those are the typical three that the publisher wants to own.
RV (32:37):
Say that again, it’s verbatim text, audio,
NM (32:41):
Well, verba verbatim texts of physical audio and E So physical is like the print. Got it. Audio is the audio ones audiobook and E is electronic Kindle and on your iPad. Gotcha. So those are like the three specific ones. And then there’s all these other ones that the publisher owns, like second serial, first serial. And again, this is like all contract specific. But then the rest is kind of free game. And unless you’re focused and unless you’re focused on it, you can miss it. And then the publisher can retain the journal rights, but that doesn’t mean that they own it because you still own it and it’s your copyright. So you just negotiate specific percentages that the publisher will receive based on what a the vendor wants to sell it to you or wants to buy. So again, if it’s a journal, you can create the journal if you own it, if you don’t own the rights, you can still just split a percentage with the, with the publisher,
RV (33:44):
Uhhuh,
NM (35:10):
Yeah, I think the, I think it doesn’t, so say your publication date is six months in advance. I think the work starts six months prior to it. And so you’re planning, creating this foundation of launching a book. And so I think the, everyone always feels, again, going back to the time everyone feels like, oh, a take that’s forever from now, a year to publish my book. That’s forever. But there’s a lot of work that has to go into it and it is a full-time job on top of the other things you’re trying to do in your day. So it’s good to have a long runway to to to, to work and market and promote and see what works. So, you know, Roy, I think it depends on the author of what they feel comfortable with. I do know recently I had an author who did not wanna go on social media.
NM (35:57):
She was terrified. And now her book came out and she started promoting online. And that book is now well she had zero followers on Instagram and now she has 30,000 followers on Instagram in three months. Wow. And a YouTube channel with 22,000 subscribers. So it’s almost like you have to lean into sometimes what you don’t wanna do and see what works. That’s why you have the runway. But social media always works talking about your concept before it launches. You know, it’s okay to give away free content and it’s okay to give away the title and talk about your book when it’s ready to announce. I have an author whose book’s coming out in November and he hasn’t told anyone about the book he lives in overseas. And the book is being published by Simon and Schuster. And so he did a author debut party where, because he is overseas, he came back, he went to New York, invited 200 of his closest friends and did this debut party.
NM (36:58):
And the book hit number one for pre-orders on Amazon two weeks ago. So I, I think, you know, those two examples are just someone, you know, feeling into what they feel like is what they wanna do or maybe kind of what they’re afraid to do and leading into it. But those are two that I thought have been really successful just recently of just like promoting you know, also speaking tours, getting pre-orders. We’ve talked about that, you know, doing a bulk order campaign. I think it’s just again, but it’s, it’s creating the business plan of seeing what the concept will be how it’ll resonate with you as the author. And also waiting for hearing feedback as you’re p planning, preparing for marketing here, feedback from the audience of, okay, well they did actually, like when I posted that on Instagram or that speaking engagement was really significant and special when I talked about, you know, the book title. So it’s really just kind of feeling into what is working for you and resonating for you. And then also just seeing what what sticks.
RV (38:03):
And then what about pr, I know you’ve had authors get on major Yeah. National television and podcasts and things. Are there any keys to making that work? Is it, is it worth hiring a publicist? Does it tend to not sell as many books as people think or like what your,
NM (38:19):
I think it just depends. I think it doesn’t, we don’t know what sells books until you start talking about it. Until you start kind of seeing what works. And that’s why it’s like, it’s the wild west of publishing, right? So hiring a publicist for you individually, I think certainly helps. But having clear expectations with the people that you’re hiring with the contractors, say it’s a marketing team or a publicity team, or your social media team, having clear expectations what you’re wanting out of that specific vendor is crucial so that you know what you’re wanting out of them and they know what they need to deliver for you. I don’t ever wanna say that a publicist should guarantee and move units for the author. I think it really just helps for branding and messaging. But then yes, if you get on a national TV show, it will significantly help the book and help your brand. So I don’t, I, I think it’s always good to hire someone who’s gonna be your advocate and the, the, the better the, the, the team that you create, again, because you’re the c e o and you’re like, you have your agent who’s kind of the, the operations person and you wanna make sure you have the team that’s really kind of communicating, cuz that is a recipe for disaster if they’re not communicating. And you’re not the one setting those expectations.
RV (39:34):
Mm-Hmm.
RV (40:22):
So just email [email protected], put literary agent in the subject line and send your proposal. And I want you to send it. I want that to come to me. I’m not gonna send it through to NMNena yet. I’m gonna vet it and I’m going to tell you because if we get, if we get Nina’s attention, I wanna make sure that by the time she sees it, she’s gonna be blown away because you only, sometimes you only get one shot, right? I mean, it’s, it’s, that’s the other thing is like, you need to put the work in here. So anyways, you can shoot us an email [email protected], just put literary agent in the subject line, send me your proposal, our team will look at it, and then, you know, if you’re ready, we’ll connect you right to Nina and be like, Hey, let’s go. And if you’re not, we’ll, you know, give you some ideas about maybe what you should do so that we can get you ready so that you can go see Nina. So outside of that, Nina, what do you think, just kinda like last thoughts. What are some of the biggest mistakes that you think authors make in this process, and what would you just wanna leave people with?
NM (41:25):
So, you know, I don’t really talk about mistakes. I feel like mistakes are just never really they’re never really mistakes, right? But I do think authors feel that they can’t share their material because they’re afraid of someone stealing it. And I always like to say like, you know, your words or your words, and no one can take those away from you. So your story is meaningful and let’s help make that more meaningful to your audience. I think that authors sometimes are clouded with the process that they think it, you know, the book, a book takes time and it is, you need to nourish it and feed it. And the more you put into it, the more you get out of it. And so sometimes the process doesn’t seem like it is exactly what you wanted it to be, but then if you look at it you know, over the life of a book, which is forever, if you look at a book, not week by week and what your book is selling, but you look at it over the course of a year and you see what you’ve done and what you’ve accomplished and you know, what you have seen and heard from your audience, speaking back to you and from, you know, growing your brand, I think is like more like seeing gratitude in that instead of being frustrated that you didn’t hit a list or you know, that, that something didn’t go well with one of the vendors.
NM (42:51):
So I do always seem like that. I had an author who was so focused on getting speaking into churches. All she wanted do was get her memoir into churches. And after years and years of trying to get into church she was very frustrated. She then realized, she looked at her speaking schedule and she said, wait a minute. I’ve spoken to 40 schools in the last two quarters, and now the New York Public Library is wanting me to speak there. And also the New York Public system, public school systems is buying 10,000 units of my book. And that was over the year of her first book. So I think I liked for authors to see gratitude in, in the process, and it’s, it’s never it’s never what you think it is, but it’s always extremely, extremely gratifying. Mm-Hmm.
RV (43:39):
NM (43:57):
Do it again. I’ll do it again. Come see me, come see me with a box of instant oatmeal
RV (44:02):
NM (44:23):
You’re best. Great. You’re the best. Thank you.
RV (44:25):
All right, bye-bye friend Byebye. Thanks
Ep 399: How To Find Your People | Phil Treadwell Episode Recap
AJV (00:03):
So I just had a pretty enlightening conversation with Phil Treadwell, who I happened to be interviewing for the influential personal brand podcast. And we got on this little bit of a side tangent talking about, you know, real estate and mortgage professionals and what they can do in today’s, you know, somewhat tumultuous unique market. And we got on this side conversation about social media that led to another side conversation, which has now led me to this conversation, but I thought it was worthy enough to make an entirely separate video about, because I think this is something we really forget. And this is a little bit about social media, but also just human interactions. So it doesn’t matter if you’re online or offline, I think this conversation is really important. I will start with the online piece because that is a continuation from this conversation that I had with Phil Chadwell on our podcast.
AJV (01:04):
But here, here’s kind of where it stemmed from is that as you’re thinking about how to use social media for your business, right? And we talked a lot about how social media is a tool, and like any tool, it can be used for a variety of reasons, good reasons, healthy reasons, bad reasons, unhealthy reasons. But it’s a tool, right? And we have to treat it like a tool. And in this particular instance, it’s a business tool. And here’s kind of where this all started, is that social media, it’s a tool. But like with any tool, you have to ask yourself first, why am I using this tool and how can this tool be used? So I’ll say that again. Why am I using this tool? And then how can this tool be used? So through the lens of social media, what we talked about is, you know, if you just ask yourself for a second, for the audience that you’re trying to reach, why do they get on social media?
AJV (02:11):
Do they get on for education, entertainment to stay in touch with friends and family? Do they get on to see what’s happening in, in the world and media? Or is it to shop and look up pretty things? Why do they get on, right? And I thought it was a really good example that Phil shared in our interview, and he goes, most people, as they’re sitting in line at the D M V, this is the exact example he got where he gave, we’re, we’re trying to, you know, you know, kill 15 minutes and you decided to pop on social media. Were probably not sitting there trying to go, yes, real estate professional that you are defined for me the terms and definition of amortization, right? That’s probably not what we’re doing. Now, some of you maybe it is, but in general, I think it
AJV (02:58):
Just begs the question, what is your audience doing online? And is what you are doing online appealing to them, right? So that’s the first is why is your audience getting on social media? And then the second is, how are they using it both in their personal and professional life? So why are they using it? And then how are they using it, right? And I think those are two very distinctively different questions with some similarities. And at the end of the day here’s what resonated with me is that so often as we think about social media as a business tool, we think about it as an educational tool. We think about it as a marketing tool, a branding tool a selling tool. But we forget that the heart of why most of us human beings get on social media is for human connection. Truly, yes, we find vendors, we check people out, we listen to music, we learn about, you know, media, entertainment, political things, news, whatever is happening.
AJV (04:08):
Yes, we do all of those things. We learn, we get information, and most of what we’re doing most of the time is actually checking in with people.
AJV (05:13):
And Jenny Allen is single-handedly my most favorite author of all time. And I explained this book, find Your People as a Adult Version of How To Make Friends
AJV (05:57):
This is also something that I don’t just wrestle with in my professional life or using social media or as a, you know, thinking about business. I struggle with this in my personal life as in almost 40 this year, almost 40 year old. I find that it’s really challenging to find people that I can do life with who’s in a similar life stage. Who we go through similar challenges, right? So for me, a mom of two young boys who also runs a business who’s in business with her husband, who works out of their home, where we both travel a lot, right? That’s kind of unique. And I have found it’s really hard for me. So I picked up this book cuz I was like, I need you to teach me how to make friends Jenny Allen, help me. And what I learned is that this was is this so much more than about making friends.
AJV (06:43):
This is about the human condition of we are built, we are truly built, and this is this, I’m gonna bring this all together in just a second. I promise. We are truly built to connect with people who are in proximity. And I think a little bit of that is true online and offline. And I think one of the reasons that so many of us default to online is because we have immediate proximity. It’s this thing right here that’s in our pocket all the time. And we default to that versus, you know, taking it the offline part cuz that’s harder, that’s more awkward, that’s more uncomfortable and it’s definitely more time consuming, right? But one of the things that I learned is like I was trying to do life and build friendships with, not that they’re not still my friends, but with people who don’t even live in my city.
AJV (07:30):
Some of my closest friends do not even live within a drive away from me. I have to get on an airplane for hours to see some of my closest friends, which is why as a human being sitting here in Nashville, I’m going, I don’t feel like I don’t have friends when I have tons of friends, but I need friends that I can walk to their house, that we run into each other at the grocery store. I need friends that I’m gonna naturally see at church or at different functions across town. I need, I need friends that there is natural crossover. In other words, it needs to be easy, it needs to be convenient, there needs to be things that we have in common. We need to be in proximity of each other if we’re gonna have that natural opportunity to do life together, to build real community.
AJV (08:16):
And so much of that has to do with proximity, convenience. But mo most importantly, it’s what we have in common. Do we go to the same grocery store, the same coffee shop? Do we go to the same church? Do our kids go to the same school? Do we live in the same neighborhood? Do we work out at the same, you know, for me, bar three class, right? It’s like, what are the things that we have in common? Because that’s where there’s natural connection. And then it hit me, the exact same thing happens online on social modi, on somo, on social media, both professionally and personally. And here’s how I’m gonna wrap this all up. My encouragement to you is that before you start talking
AJV (08:54):
About the what that you do, right, interest rates, how many sales you’ve made, how many people love you, how many flights have you been on, how many stages were you on? Like, that’s cool, that’s fine. But that does not build connection. And that’s what we’re trying to do on social media, right? Social media is the networking tool of the 21st century. It’s not meant to only be online, but it’s a starting point. But in order to build connection, it’s like, I need to get to know you. I need to know who you are where w you know, where do you live? Not like your address, but you know, like, do you live near a beach? Like for me, I live like in this, you know, foresty tree area. It’s like, I want to know the little things about you that’s a part of the human condition, the human connection that makes me wanna follow you.
AJV (09:40):
I wanna see what you’re gonna dress up for as Halloween or what you thought about the Arrows tour with the Taylor Swift concert. It’s like those are the things that are equally as important, and they may seem counterintuitive, but the who part of this, the human connection part is equal to the what part? At least 50% if not more. So as you’re thinking about social media and how do I use this as a tool and how do I use this to help separate myself and differentiate myself? The number one way that you can differentiate yourself is to actually let people go get to know you. You’re the only you there is, there’s lots of loan officers, there’s lots of attorneys, there’s lots of dentists, there’s just only one you, so who are you, right? Like, what do you like to do and what are your thoughts?
AJV (10:27):
And you know, find your own balance in there. I’m not gonna get into the weeds on that. My point is, is we wanna get to know the who. That it’s that human connection that I wanna know that there’s other people like me out there doing things I like and struggling with, things that I struggle with. And we follow people. We’re drawn to people that we have things in common with offline and online. So as you’re thinking about the, why is my audience getting on social media and how are they using it? Just don’t forget the who part of that. It’s not just about the what and the education and information that’s part of it, but it’s about the who, who are you, who are they and what do you have in common? If you like this, then go check out the full conversation that I had with Phil Treadwell and I’ll catch you next time. See you later.
Ep 398: How To Build Your Brand In Mortgage and Real Estate Industry with Phil Treadwell
AJV (00:02):
Hey everybody, and welcome to another episode on the Influential Personal Brand podcast. This is AJ Vaden here today. And before I introduce my guest, I’m gonna put a disclaimer out there because every so often we will do an episode that is super niche for a very unique audience, and today is one of those days. And what we’re gonna be talking about today is how to use a personal brand to help you. If you are a real estate agent, you could be a real estate developer, a broker, you could be a loan officer, you could be in any sort of role that’s kind of touching this mortgage and real estate industry. And we decided to do this because one, at Brand Builders Group, we have a ton of audience members who serve the real estate industry, but also because the real estate industry is a little bit tumultuous right now.
AJV (00:58):
And one of the biggest questions that we get in terms of a personal brand is, well, how do I use that to actually leverage and differentiate myself to generate more leads when the market is interesting? I’ll just say that. But then also so many of people in these industries are also coming to us going, how do we diversify our income streams where the income stream that I had have been my main thing has kind of disappeared a little bit, or it’s, it just looks different today. And so I invited a newer friend of mine, Phil Treadwell, to be our guest on this particular show today because I got to meet Phil because I was on his podcast. And when we were talking at the end of that, I was like, you know what? I would love to have you on to talk about these niche topics on the influential personal brand.
AJV (01:49):
So now let me formally introduce Phil to you guys in case you don’t know him. So Phil Treadwell is a mindset coach. He’s a national speaker and a fellow podcaster. He’s also the founder of M one Academy. And as I mentioned, he’s host of the Mortgage Marketing Expert podcast. So if you’re in the real estate industry, that is a must listen to podcast, he’s also received lots of cool awards, like the 40 most Influential Under 40, Hey, but then also Top 20 Mortgage Professionals by Yahoo Finance. So it’s always good to tout some of those credentials while we’re having you on the show today. So feel welcome. So glad you’re here.
PT (02:28):
Well, thank you so much. That was a incredible intro. I’m excited to have another conversation. We, we covered a lot of cool topics on my podcast and it’s gonna be fun to do it again.
AJV (02:37):
Yes. Well, I’m so excited, and I also love getting to do these super niche podcasts that serve a really, you know, specific part of our audience. And so let’s just jump right in. So here’s the big question, right? It’s like, you know, real estate’s kind of crazy right now. It’s up, down all around. Interest rates are real high and making a lot of people not wanna buy, which means a lot of people in the mortgage industry are going, oh,
PT (03:26):
I think that’s a great question. At the end of the day, a personal brand, as you all know, needs to be about the person more so than the brand. We have some of the largest corporations on the face of the planet that are trying to personify that company. Well, mortgage and real estate, it’s about the person they work with, the realtor, the loan officer, the individual person. And yet we have so many professionals in the industry that are trying to create a shtick or a logo or a brand. And we need to be continuing to emphasize it’s about the person. Mm-Hmm.
PT (04:18):
You have a unique how you do it. And so it’s a matter of showcasing that with your own personality, with your own ways that you can get those people’s attention. And that’s really where people are, are thriving. Even in this market. There’s opportunities in every market. I don’t care whether interest rates are high and supply is low, people pay for solutions to their problems. And it’s just you using your uniqueness, you as a person and your ethos as a professional to solve those problems for people. And a personal brand just gives you the opportunity to put that out at scale, put it out at a really high level for people to find you and realize that you have the solution that they need.
AJV (05:00):
Yeah, I love that. I remember when I started I was part of a team of people who started our first company in 2006. What a great time to start a business in 2006. But we were so naive, we didn’t know, like we didn’t know what a good market was. We definitely didn’t know what a recession was. And I remember someone telling me in those first couple of years of starting our first company, and they said that during the Great Depression in the twenties, that more millionaires were form were formed during that 10 year period than any other 10 year period in US history. And, and that’s because it’s like you’re gonna, it’s all about how you view it, right? There’s op opportunities in every market, just like you said, it’s just gonna be like, who’s the one who perseveres gets creative, stays persistent and does something a little different. So what would you say are some of the things for, you know, the real estate professional, the, you know, mortgage expert, what would you say, what are some of, of the things that you’re seeing out there that really lends itself to working right now when it comes to building your personal brand?
PT (06:04):
Yeah, great question. Most mortgage and real estate professionals, when they know that they need to be on social media, they know they need to be creating content, they start putting out educational content, which in and of itself is a great idea. However, we have to realize that when people get on social media, they’re typically on social for a reason. In Texas, we, I talk about the, the God forsaken D M V. Now, that’s not what’s on the sign, but everybody that’s been here knows you wait in line for hours. It’s, it’s just a terrible experience. Well, when people are in that experience or you’re in the waiting room in a doctor’s office or in line to pick up the kids or whatever it is mm-hmm.
PT (06:48):
Right?
PT (07:32):
Instead of coming out and saying, Hey, here’s the biggest myth about the housing market right now, here’s three things you need to know. If you wanna start investing in real estate and coming up with a hook and letting people know, I have a solution that you need. I have an opportunity to show you how to do something. There may be a misnomer. And that’s what’s really working and getting people’s attention when it comes to educational content. But I think the other thing where people are, are grasping and, and really getting, gaining a lot of ground in this market is realizing that social media is also about social proof. And what I mean by social proof is if, if five years ago I said, you need to use aj, she’s an awesome loan officer, she’s gonna have an incredible process. She’s gonna take care of you.
PT (08:15):
If she says she can get it done, she can. Five years ago if I said use aj, they just wouldn’t use aj. Mm-Hmm.
PT (08:59):
It’s why when we meet someone, the weather, it’s the first thing we talk about. It’s the one thing we have in common with that person at that time. And so we realize that our aunt’s, brother’s cousin went to the same school as, you know, whoever they had. And, and we, we uncover all of these things that are in common. Social media is the perfect opportunity as you build your personal brand to find these quirky little things that are about you, that you like to do for hobbies that you notice about the world and share those with people so they can make that connection and solidify that referral that you worked so hard to get in the first place.
AJV (09:34):
Oh my gosh. Like, we’re gonna have to go off on a tangent because there are so many things that you just said that if you’re just listening and you weren’t really listening, you probably just let that slip by. And I cannot let that happen. So let’s talk about this for a second, because these are really, really good because everyone talks about social media. Some people talk about how much they hate it and how they can stand it. Other people don’t talk about it because they’re too busy on it and Right. And then there’s a whole group of people who are the I would say the educators of social media who are constantly teaching PE are trying to teach people how to use it, right? And it’s just like this funny, it’s this funny combination of how this really works. But at the end of the day, social media is a tool, right?
AJV (10:18):
Just like any other tool, food is a tool, right? Our, our money is a tool and there are good things and bad things about every tool, depending on how you use it. A hammer can build a house or it can be a, a weapon to hurt somebody. It’s a tool, right? And this is like such one of my pet peeves when people go, oh geez, social media is, you know, the number one just destructive thing for our youth. And it’s like, as probably we could say the same thing about food or parenting or a hundred other things, right? It’s a tool. So let’s talk about how to use this tool effectively in business, which that’s how I treat it. Like this is a business tool, right? And so I use it like I would in any other business tool, like my email. I’ve gotta have a schedule and I gotta manage it.
AJV (11:06):
So there’s a few things that I think are really important just to kind of come back on, as you said, ask yourself this question or this is what I heard anyways, which was ask yourself, why are people getting on social media? Mm-Hmm.
PT (11:57):
You know, I, I don’t know that I would recommend one topic I’m a big fan of and versus, or, and we get caught up in that a little bit now. I would say if you’re gonna do long form educational video type content, then YouTube and Facebook are probably going to be better suited for, for that type of content. If you’re going to do short form content that drives traffic to some of these other platforms, you’re gonna look at reels on Facebook and Instagram or potentially TikTok. But to your point, you’ve gotta know who is your audience. I have a a basic marketing formula that, that I kind of walk people through. And that’s the very first question. Who’s your audience? Who’s your target market? Who is it you’re trying to serve? The next question in there is what problem do you solve? What value do you provide?
PT (12:48):
Message you provide that particular audience? And then the third piece of that is, what’s the most effective medium to deliver that solution to that audience? And so where to find that audience is very dependent upon what problem you’re solving, what message you’re providing, so that you can create the most effective medium. Cuz especially in real estate, we have a lot of people that know a team that creates a lot of leads with a YouTube channel. So I’m gonna go out and create a YouTube channel or I, I love the, you know, podcast. I listened to a lot of podcasts. I’m gonna go start a podcast. Well, the reason I started a podcast specifically was I was a regional manager that was trying to reach more people and add value to their business that I could network with, potentially recruit. And I felt like a podcast was the most effective medium to deliver a valuable advice to build their business.
PT (13:43):
I didn’t know a lot of loan officers that sat on YouTube for hours. I didn’t know a lot of them that were even really on social media a ton because this was around 2018. But I did know people that listened to Audible and listened to podcasts cuz they could do it in their car. They could, you know, while they’re at the gym, walking around the house, even the background at work. So the platform is super important from the standpoint of is it the best place to give this message to that audience? Now we all know too, Facebook is kind of aging up or has continued to age up for a while. So if you’re looking at Gen Xers or, or older, Facebook is a great platform for you. Instagram, it’s gonna be solidly millennials, you know, TikTok has been Gen Z, but I’m gonna be honest, there’s probably as many millennials or more than there is Gen Z on TikTok anymore.
PT (14:32):
So a lot of it is about posting content different places and really understanding is my audience there When I post a video even now, and I’ve spent a lot of time, you know, researching some of this stuff, having conversations and testing content, I still take the same video and I post on Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, shorts, LinkedIn and TikTok to really understand, okay, the message of that video, the problem that I’m solving there is that audience on that platform resonating with it or not. So again, the the audience and who you’re trying to reach is, is very important. But when determining that platform, I think that that that messaging in there is a, is a critical piece.
AJV (15:12):
Yeah. You know, that’s so interesting. And I just wanna reiterate what you said. It’s like one for all of you listening it’s, and this doesn’t matter what industry you’re in, but it’s like, until you know who is your core target audience, the rest of this is a moot point. It’s like, if you don’t know that you’re just slinging mud on the wall and hoping some of it sticks, which just, just isn’t a good strategy, right? It’s just not. So step one is you’ve gotta really know demographically and psychographically speaking who your core target audience is. And then I love this part of what you said, it’s, and then you need to know why they’re getting on social media, right? Like to your point, it’s like if you’re, if this is a way to, you know, kill 15 minutes at the D M V, do I really wanna know what, you know, the, you know, definition of amortization is probably not.
AJV (16:00):
Or it’s like I want something that’s quick light, you know, probably more inspirational or entertaining in that moment. But if I was gonna sit down and go, Hey, and now I’m trying to learn something, would I go to Instagram or would I go somewhere else? Right? If I really wanted to have an in-depth conversation about what’s happening with interest rates in the mortgage world, I probably am not going to Instagram in general for me. Right? And that might be different from your audience, but those are the questions that you’ve gotta be asking. And I think that’s so good. It’s just sitting there going, why would my audience get on this platform in the first place? And am I, am I appealing to that or am I automatically going, no, I don’t, that’s not what I’m getting on here for. I don’t want this. That’s exactly right. All the work and effort you’re doing feels like it’s not working because you’re just doing it wrong.
PT (16:49):
Yeah. And, and you bring up a great point around what they’re getting on there for. Cuz it goes back to this, this conversation and business about solving someone’s problem. In those environments where people are trying to escape and they wanna be entertained or inspired, you need to solve that problem. They’re gonna pay you in time and they’re gonna give you their attention for that solution. So your content does need to be entertaining. And I will say when it comes to a well-rounded personal brand, I believe your, the majority over half of your content needs about who be, excuse me, the majority of your content needs to be about who you are, not just what you do. Mm-Hmm.
PT (17:43):
Mm-Hmm.
PT (18:31):
And as I’ve started to share that story with people, I now get five to 10 people a week that take a wing pick and tag me in it. And it’s become part of this relatability that you have with people. You ha i I think it’s important as you’re thinking about this, this question that you’re posing, why are people getting on social media? I think it’s to relate to people. And so the content needs to be relevant. If you’re working with first time home buyers, you’re typically gonna be steering towards a younger demographic in most cases. So what type of content do they wanna see? Mm-Hmm.
AJV (19:37):
Yeah. And I love what you said too earlier, it’s at the end of the day, and I think this is a, this is like the second thing that I wrote down, a really good reminder to everyone. It’s like a personal referral isn’t even enough anymore. It’s like, like you said five years ago, you say, Hey, use aj and it’s like, great, I’ll use aj, but now it’s like, well, let me learn about aj. Right? And that’s because the ease of doing so is like mm-hmm.
AJV (20:21):
And it’s like, I clearly, you know, I believe in this and anyone listening knows I believe in this is my business. But it’s like, it, it’s really true. It’s like people are going to go to Google and type in AJ Vaden and it’s like, what pops up or what doesn’t pop up, right? And it’s like if I go, I don’t care who you recommended me to cuz I do this all the time. I’m like, I need a new dentist, I need a new hair stylist, I need a new, if there’s no website, there’s no chance I’m using you. I don’t care how much you tell me you’re awesome. Right? If I can’t find Google reviews or some sort of social proof, I’m out. Cuz I’m just like, what, who did you refer me to? Like, don’t even have a website. There’s no reviews, there’s no social media. And so I would just love to hear your opinion on, for this unique industry, right? Calling, I’m just calling it the real estate industry mortgage included. What’s a, what’s enough like, right? Yeah. Like what’s the bare minimum and what would be like, this is what you should have.
PT (21:19):
Yeah, that’s a, that’s a tough question because it is obviously is subjective to each person. I get a lot of questions around how often should I post, how much is too much, what’s not enough? And my answer that I give about the frequency of posting is you need to be consistent. If it’s once a day or it’s once a week or a few times a month, I don’t know that there’s necessarily a wrong answer so long as you’re consistent. Because people will look at your profile and see, okay, you posted three days ago, but the last post before that was six months ago and it was three months before that, or two years before that. Right. People do pay attention to that. So I think it needs to be consistent more so than anything. I also think, like I’ve said before, there needs to be a good mix between personal and business content. Mm-Hmm.
AJV (22:26):
I know that name. I know Scott. I was like, this sounds so familiar. Yeah,
PT (22:30):
Scott’s a is a, is a, is a friend of mine. He’s he’s been on the podcast several times and he was telling a story about a guy who was a top producer and was just having a, a bang out year, you know, 20 20, 20 21. And one of his best friends ended up buying a house but didn’t use him as his loan officer. Now to his credit, the, the loan officer went to his friend and said, Hey, you know, just curious, did you felt like you didn’t couldn’t use me or whatever. And the response was super interesting. The friend said, Hey, I knew that my wife and I would have a ton of questions and we, we really needed to understand the process better. And I noticed that you kept posting that you guys were having record months and you were doing all these, these transactions and doing all this volume and we didn’t wanna slow you down.
PT (23:17):
And I think that that’s powerful for people to realize some of these things that we put out there. Yeah. To boost our reputation can potentially be working against you. So reviews and testimonials are good, but whenever we try to, what I kind of do ego posts where we, we kind of stroke our ego a little bit, sometimes that can have the opposite effect. There’s ways to show your experience, your credibility, position yourself as an expert within that context of that personal brand without deterring from it. So again, the frequency just needs to be consistent and mix it up. But just be careful. Why is your audience on there? They’re not on there to see that you have, you know, all of these accolades and that you’ve done all this stuff. There’s a time and a place for that. And a lot of times that’s not on social media.
AJV (24:02):
That’s say that for your website.
PT (24:04):
Yes. Yes.
AJV (24:06):
I think that’s really good. Now that lends me to another really quick question, and then I’m gonna change, change directions on us here. Do you think that in this world social media is enough? Or do you really think people need to have, even if it’s like a quick splash page or just a one page landing page? Do you really think people need to have a website or a blog or a podcast or a social media enough?
PT (24:33):
I, I personally believe you need a website. Now, I’m not saying it has to be a super robust website, but at the end of the day, your website, in my opinion, is your digital business card. Your social media platforms are gonna cater different types of content to different people. But social media is also about directing all of that attention someplace. If marketing’s about getting someone’s attention, we don’t really make any money on marketing. Where we make money on is sales where we create a customer. And that’s a lot of times more difficult to do if, if not impossible for most in mortgage and real estate to do. You need to have a website, you need to have a place that you can drive traffic. You need to have some type of a, of a call to action in that way. Again, it doesn’t need to be complicated, but having that is, is extremely important in, in today’s day and age for sure.
AJV (25:21):
Yeah, I think that’s really good. And I’ll just share one really quick thing. If you’re going hi, a website here’s just one really quick thing that I learned that’s really helpful. In interim, if you don’t have the time or the resources to actually go and get, even if it’s a mediocre one page website, which quite honestly today is you could probably whip something up for 1500 bucks if you just use a template, let’s just say you don’t even have time or capacity for that. Just at least go by your name, just by, you know, in my case, aj vaden.com and then have it redirected to whatever your most robust social media profile is. Right? Yeah. And it’s like, I did that for years when I was like, I don’t have time for this, so I just had it redirect my LinkedIn profile until you’re ready to do whatever. So, but at least secure your name and have it a redirect somewhere. Would you say that could be a good workaround for the very short?
PT (26:17):
A hundred percent. Yeah. And, and there’s lots of places and like I’m a big fan of Link Tree mm-hmm.
PT (26:57):
And one thing that I wanna make sure of when we talk about social media being enough is I have a personal belief that social media is about creating relationships. It’s networking. In the 21st century, you have to take the relationships offline. Mm. You, you can’t just have conversations with people, at least in mortgage and real estate and expect to have a long-term sustainable foundation for a business by simply just trying to interact with people online. Now, what does offline mean? It doesn’t necessarily mean in person. That might be email, that might be text, that might be in the dms, but it can’t just be in the interaction on the social media profiles because you’ve got to at some point create relationship. Mm-Hmm.
AJV (28:05):
Yeah. I love that
PT (29:25):
That’s a, that’s a good question. I’ve, I’ve not actually been asked this question before and I’ve done hundreds of episodes of my podcast and, and been on on a lot of others into the hundreds as well. So I love this question. And I think my first instinctual or instinctive, excuse me answer is let’s go ahead and take some of our own advice. Meaning if we’re teaching people how to build wealth with real estate, a great way is to invest in real estate yourself. Hmm. You’re gonna create that much more credibility by saying, Hey, I actually own a couple of rental properties, or I have some Airbnbs or VRBO os and now I can show you in a different way how to utilize these things as well. I, I mean there’s even here in D F W, some, some top loan officers that make more money passive income through their real estate portfolio and, and things that they’ve built on the side than they even make, especially now in in their mortgage business.
PT (30:19):
Mm-Hmm.
PT (31:00):
If you have an audience of a specific amount of people and there’s certain type of products that that audience really needs or wants, there are ways to make money on advertisements or affiliates or things of that nature by just spreading the word about products, you know, that you believe in. So once you create a certain amount of attention and following, there are are numerous ways that you can do that. And I know a lot of people that have made their side hustle their full-time hustle, and you can still participate in real estate, you can still be a loan officer by pursuing this thing. And in today’s day and age, entrepreneurship is, you know, obviously kind of a buzzword, you know, in the eighties and nineties, I mean, you didn’t have a job and then now it’s, you know, this this key to financial freedom. But for most of us it’s about really staying consistent and persistent over time. And as those things build up, it opens up so many opportunities. So the answer for those that haven’t built a brand yet is you need to spend a lot of time doing that and you’ll find all kinds of ways to monetize it. And whether you have a personal brand or not, you can invest in real estate and start doing the things that you’re teaching people to do already.
AJV (32:07):
Yeah, I love that. I think that’s so good. And I’m gonna just throw this in cause I, you mentioned this, like you were just on a two and a half week jaunt around the country. And I think speaking would be one, it’s like, no, you’ve gotta have expertise and you have to have some stage presence. But how did you get into that? All right, so how did you make the transition from regional manager to podcast hosts to, you know, you’ve got content you’re speaking, so walk somebody through the trajectory of like, okay, this is what it really looks like if you’re interested.
PT (32:41):
Yeah, it was, it was a happy accident. You know, I started the podcast to build my region and all kinds of cool things happened because of that. I was able to speak on some panels at industry level conferences that you’re not necessarily getting paid for. They may cover your ticket to the event, but then you start networking with a lot of people. And I think there’s a ton of mortgage and real estate professionals right now, regardless of how big your business is, that has a specific area of expertise that you can reach out to industry events and say, Hey, I have a proficiency for this. I’d like to know, is there anywhere in your event where that makes sense for me to be a panelist or for me to have a little short spot where I can just kind of share this thing and, and have it very defined.
PT (33:24):
And then from there, as you start meeting other speakers and you start continuing with your craft, I’ve never been to an event where they’ve reached out to me to speak that they haven’t said, Hey, who else do you know that might be a fit mm-hmm.
PT (34:13):
I took a few workshops on showing up better in communication and speaking to where I, all of a sudden someone reached out and said, Hey, we want you to, you know, fly to this place and, and speak. We’re gonna cover your travel and your ticket. We can’t really pay you anything. But at that particular event, there was a Hall of Fame football player that spoke right after me and then Rudy Rudiger for the one for, for Rufi, if everybody’s seen the movie Rudy. And so it was me and then Darren Woodson, who’s a hall of fame cowboy football player and ESPN n commentator. And all of a sudden I’m like, okay, well I didn’t get paid for this event, but all of a sudden I’m on stage with these people and then it just turns into, you know, paid speaking gigs. And so there, there is a, a huge opportunity, especially for mortgage and real estate because there’s so many types of businesses within our business.
PT (35:03):
Not all real estate teams are the same. Not all mortgage teams are the same. So whatever your skill is, listen to podcasts on it, read books on it, get educated, take workshops, invest in yourself and then come up, here is what I’m good at. Here’s what I’m proficient, here’s what I love talking about that I can, I can bring some passion to and then literally start asking people to do that. I still will reach out to events and say, I all the speakers you have on there, I love what they’re doing. I have some friends on there, here’s where I think I can add value. And then there’s at the same time other places that reach out and say, we want you to come, you know, speak at our event. That’s become something I really enjoy doing and, and want to do a lot more of. And it, there’s, there’s opportunities for everybody, especially in this space to, to be able to do that as well.
AJV (35:47):
I love that so much and I think that’s such a great reminder. And the number one thing that I gleamed from what you just shared is sometimes the best opportunities are not the ones that you get paid for. That’s right. But you’ve gotta be willing and you’ve gotta, you know, be a little opportunistic. Yes. And it’s like you’re gonna get paid eventually. You just may not get paid in that moment. And I yeah. Know so many people who are turning things down cuz it didn’t offer to pay. And I’m like, well, have you ever been paid before? No. Well, it’s like
PT (36:50):
Yes.
AJV (36:51):
And I, that is such a great reminder of like, man, the gift is in the practice. It’s in honing the skill, it’s in the networking, it’s with who you meet. It’s like that’s the gift. Like that’s how you get paid until one day you get paid even more.
PT (37:10):
Yes. So there’s, there’s two quick things that I wanna, I wanna put an exclamation point on that. The first one was I, this last two and a half weeks, I spoke eight times in five different cities. And as I came back and was kind of debriefing with, with my coach and my mentor a guy who’s done Ted Talks and, and has a very high speaking fee and, and really coaches me on this side of my business. And he was just asking me to kind of give my impression on it. And the first thing that came to mind is almost exactly what you just said. There were things that I learned throughout each of these hour long, you know, onstage me talking to an audience, you know speaking events. There’s things that I learned that I could only have learned by doing that thing.
PT (37:53):
And we need to remember that you can’t dial in something, you can’t get better at something, you can’t fix something that you’re not actively doing.
AJV (38:42):
So good and such a good reminder to, to all of us. And I probably could come with like, come up with like five more questions that I’m like, I know everyone is gonna want to hear. However, we’re out of time. And so if you really want to learn more about what’s happening in the industry and how to build your personal brand to grow your business, diversify your income streams, then I would encourage you to go check Phil out at his website. You can go to phil treadwell.com, I will spell that out in the show notes, but it’s phil treadwell.com. You can also go follow him on all the social media sites, which is everything is at Phil Treadwell. So Instagram do you have a social media platform of choice that you want people to go to?
PT (39:25):
I mean, Instagram’s probably where I’m most active, but I’m active on all the socials. If you, if you DM me on one of the social media platforms, I’ll get it and I’ll respond.
AJV (39:34):
Awesome. Phil, thank you so, so much for being here. So many good nuggets, so many good tips. And y’all, so much of this is transcends the real estate industry. This is just good business advice, but I think for this unique opportunity to serve the real estate mortgage professionals and our audience, this one’s for you. Stick around for my summary episode next and we’ll catch you next time on the influential personal brand.
Ep 397: 2 Customer Service Secrets that Will Grow Your Sales | Brittany Hodak Episode Recap
RV (00:07):
Hey, brand builder, Rory Vaden here. Thank you so much for taking the time to check out this interview. As always, it’s our honor to provide it to you for free and wanted to let you know there’s no big sales pitch or anything coming at the end. However, if you are someone who is looking to build and monetize your personal brand, we would love to talk to you and get to know you a little bit and hear about some of your dreams and visions, and share with you a little bit about what we’re up to, to see if we might be a fit. So if you’re interested in a free strategy call with someone from our team, we would love to hear from you. You can do [email protected] slash pod call brand builders group.com/pod call. We hope to talk to you soon.
RV (00:52):
The customer experience, customer secrets, customer service secrets so much to be said about that. And I have to tell, tell you that one of my favorite people ever on this topic is Brittany Hodak. And it’s not just cuz she’s a friend, and it’s not just because she’s a B B G client. I genuinely love her book and I love her experience and I love her take on customer experience and creating super fans. And she’s just awesome and so smart. And like I said, I read her book cover to cover and I fully endorse it. I did endorse it. And I, it’s, it’s, it’s phenomenal. So I hope you got a chance to go back and listen to the interview that I just did with Brittany and that you got some takeaways from that. Separate from that, it inspired me to share a couple of my favorite customer service secrets.
RV (01:47):
You know, this is, this isn’t something that I necessarily would con, I wouldn’t consider myself an expert on this. You know, I consider my expertise on the psychology of influence though, and moving people to action. And so what I wanna share with you in this lesson is two customer service secrets that will grow your sales. Two customer service secrets that will grow your sales. So customer experience, customer service, whatever you wanna call it. But specifically in the context of if you do these two things, it will help you actually grow your revenue which is definitely right inside of my wheelhouse. So number one is the concept of secret service. And I have to blatantly and boldly attribute this to John De Julius. John de Julius would be probably the number one person that I’ve learned the most from in terms of customer experience, customer service.
RV (02:46):
We love John’s philosophy of Secret Service in their whole company. We’ve, you know, I, I originally met John, I spoke at his event and then we became super fans of him and his work, and we’ve tried to incorporate that into our culture at Brand Builders Group and, and all the businesses that we’ve been a part of. And, and so here’s the difference between Secret Service and, and good customer service. Okay? Good customer service is doing is basically like being nice to people, doing things that are nice for them. But Secret Service is about doing things that are tailored for them. So it, it, secret Service requires that you learn and pay attention to the hyper-specific interest of each individual prospect or customer that you are interfacing with. All right? So a good example of this is, you know, giving out a rose to every woman who comes into your store or, you know, on Mother’s Day or to, on Valentine’s Day, let’s say it could be good customer service.
RV (03:51):
That’s a good thing. There’s definitely nothing wrong with that, that’s a great thing to do, but you’re doing the same activity for everybody, right? I mean, if, if someone comes and you say, Hey, how can I be of service today? That might be considered good customer service, but you’re doing the same thing for everyone. What’s next level though, from that is Secret Service and Secret Service is not doing good things for people. It’s doing tailored things for people and we we try to pay attention to what is going on in the lives of the people that we care about, right? So for example, one of our clients is Kiir Weimer and Kiir, if you know anything, he’s incredible. A incredible guy has an amazing story. But Kiir got into a boating accident when he was in his twenties. He ended up going to prison for it.
RV (04:44):
And then, you know, he has this, this massive turnaround story for how he transformed his life and became this very wealthy, successful real estate agent. But he couldn’t never, he, he couldn’t get accepted back into a university for years. He came outta prison. You know, he had, now he had a criminal record. He couldn’t get a job, he couldn’t get, you know, schools to accept, and he ended up getting in real estate and becoming very, very successful. And very wealthy. But like, he didn’t actually you know, he struggled to get kind of the formal things, and one of ’em was a formal education and, and finishing college and graduate school. And so it was a really more of a personal thing for him. Kira eventually got accepted into N Y U and he’s going, you know, went back to school years later and he got his degree and we sent, we saw him post about it, we heard about it, and so we sent him an N Y U sweatshirt, right?
RV (05:36):
And I mean, you would’ve thought that he won the lottery. He was so touched and so moved by that. That is Secret Service, okay? That is Secret Service. We also try to pay attention to when, when people have deaths in their family, right? We try to often do something that’s honoring to their loved one, whoever that is. Or, you know, sometimes it’s a pet, sometimes it’s a grandparent it could be a friend and just trying to be there for people. I mean, it’s, it’s, it’s a little bit weird to even call this customer’s service. And it’s, and it, and its definitely weird to think of this as like, oh, this is what will, you know, you do this to grow sales. You don’t do this to grow sales, and you don’t do this to have great customer service. You do this because you care about people and you wanna make them, you wanna let them know that they’re important to you.
RV (06:30):
And so when someone’s important to you, you wanna go out of your way to make them feel special, to make them feel important, right? If they’re important to you, you wanna do things that help them feel important, that, that help make them feel important. That’s a, a part of what creates relationships and bonds, right? And, and if you know anything about Brand Builders Group, like our vision is what we call a thousand messengers. It has been since day one. We’re not trying to have, we’re not trying to be a company that sells for hundreds of millions and billions of dollars, right? Like Brand Builders Group is not a profit maximization endeavor. It’s not. We are in impact maximization endeavor, and we said we want a thousand clients. That’s what we want a thousand clients who choose to be in our monthly program that we can work with, that we can know in, in, in an intimate way that we can serve in a, in a, in a, on a deep level and that who we can be a part of their life.
RV (07:24):
And we feel like we could build a team of maybe 50 people or so that feels manageable, where we could know our team and we know them well, and we all know the clients and we recognize them, and they’re not all, you know, just strangers in a crowd, but that we’re doing life with our clients and we’re helping them succeed. And that their wins are our wins, right? We’re not going, oh, just bigger is better. That that’s just not our game. And so our clients matter, and so we wanna celebrate their wins, right? When they have a win, we wanna celebrate them. I, I, when Amy Porterfield we worked with Amy Porterfield, and I remember when she hit the New York Times bestseller list, she post, she made this awesome post about, she showed her calling her mom, telling her mom on the phone that she was a New York Times bestselling author.
RV (08:10):
And it was like such a moving moment. It was so inspiring, and it was such a great win for her. But it was a great win for us to feel like, hey, we had a part in somebody’s journey, you know, building their brand to where they, they become a New York Times bestselling author, you know, a a small part of it, but a part of it. And to go that win, her win is our win. And that moment of her sharing that with her mom is our win. And so we sent her a, a balloon of this giant, a giant balloon that was like a Congratulations, New York Times bestselling author. And then she posted that we’re not trying to get her to post on social, we’re not trying to get more money out of her. She was the past client at that point, right? Like, we already had her money.
RV (08:52):
Like it, it was, it, it’s about caring for people and, and caring for them in a hyper-specific way, in a tailored way, in a unique way. Not that you shouldn’t do good things. Not that you shouldn’t be responsive and you shouldn’t be positive and you shouldn’t smile like you shouldn do all those things. Those are good customer service, but good customer service is markedly different from good Secret service or what John de Julius calls secret service. This secret service is this idea of going be listening. First of all, it’s listening, it’s caring, it’s watching, it’s paying attention. And then just looking for these natural moments where you can intersect into people’s lives and go, man, it sure feels like something big just happened for this person. And, you know, everyone gets birthday pre, everyone gets presents on their birthday, right? Everyone gets phone calls on their birthday, everyone gets presents at Christmas time.
RV (09:48):
It’s not that you shouldn’t send gifts to someone at Christmas or at their birthday. You, you know, you should, if you can, you should. But the part that is really special is, is when you’re, when you do something, when no one else does, when it shows that you’re watching when maybe no one else is, when, when you’re going, man, I see you going through a tough time, or I see you having a huge win that, that you wanna celebrate. And, and maybe honestly, you don’t wanna celebrate it on social media because you don’t wanna look like you’re bragging or whatever, and going, but we see this, we wanna celebrate with you. It’s caring about people, right? The the best form of marketing, the best marketing strategy in the world is to care about the success of the people in your company and the success of your clients and the success of your prospects.
RV (10:36):
We’ve done things when we, we happen to be talking to a prospect who’s not even a customer, and we hear that their house gets hit by a tornado, or they lose a loved one or something. And you go, what can we do to just show them a little love? And I don’t know what the ROI is on it financially. We don’t measure that. We don’t track it, but we don’t have to because the, there’s, there’s, there’s always an r o i on service. There’s always an r o i on making, making people feel special. There’s always an ROI on making people feel seen and, and, and helping people feel heard and helping people feel important. There’s always an ROI on that. And it doesn’t have to be financial. It’s even if it’s the, the satisfaction and the meaning and the purpose that you get from your business and what you do and the way that you’re using your money.
RV (11:26):
Like, that’s really special. And, and do we do it a hundred percent of the time? No, we don’t. Like, we miss a lot of ’em. And sometimes we’re going too fast to pay attention, and, and sometimes we maybe just, maybe money is really tight and we can’t do it, or we can’t do it for everybody, right? But you, you try to choose the moments for the people that you go, man, this is someone who’s important to me, or I I want to be important to them, or I want them to be important to us. And I wanna build a relationship to go, this is beyond money, this is beyond transactions. It’s about, it’s about caring, and it’s about service. And, and the, the only part that’s secret of it is that you’re secretly watching, you’re secretly paying attention. You’re secretly going out of your way, pausing our own natural self-centeredness, just for a moment to open our eyes and be alert and awake to what are the big things going on in other people’s lives, and how can we mourn with them?
RV (12:21):
How can we celebrate with them? How can we cheer them on? How can we encourage them? How can we recognize them and just make them feel special and important? So it’s, it’s this hyper-specific response, this hyper tailored experience, and that has been life-changing for me. The, the relationships that we have furthered and developed and deepened from that, and just the meaning and the significance and the joy that the genuine authentic joy that you get from being able to do something for somebody. And this all could, could, you know, from a tactical standpoint, this all could be summarized from a line from Sean Connery and the movie Finding Forrester and Finding Forrester was not necessarily a great movie, but this is a great line. So even if it wasn’t a great movie, this is a great line. And Sean Connery is this older writer and he’s mentoring this young writer and he starts mentoring, kind of like in more than just writing.
RV (13:24):
And, and this guy’s like trying to catch the attention of a girl or, you know, to make her like him or whatever. He’s trying to like, you know, get her to like him or show, show her that she’s important to him. And Sean Connery says, the secret to a woman’s heart is an unexpected gift at an unexpected time. An unexpected gift at an unexpected time. That is what secret Service is all about. Not just to a woman’s heart, not just for earning romantic love, but for earning and developing and building all types of love, love with your employees, with your customers, with your spouse, with your kids. Unexpected gift at an unexpected time tailored to them, right? And the, the key is tailored to them, right? We have these wonderful, beautiful brand builders, group pens, these brand builders, group pens. They have our logo on ’em, sending these out or giving these to everyone who comes.
RV (14:17):
That’s good customer service. Like, okay, hey, thanks for the pen, man. It’s a cool pen, but it’s, it’s marketing, right? If it has my logo on it or our logo on it, if it has our company logo, it is, it’s marketing. That’s not service, that’s marketing. But if I send them something with their logo on it, or a picture of their family, or celebrating their win, or memorializing their achievement or something like that, that that’s not marketing. That’s, that’s friendship. That’s relationship. And so it’s, it’s simple, but it’s so powerful and profound, and most people don’t do it because we’re too busy and we feel like we don’t have the money or we can’t justify the roi. And I’m telling you, just do it. Just, just do it. And also, it doesn’t have to be big, right? You don’t have to send them to Disneyland, right?
RV (15:05):
That’s not even secret service. Like, it, it’s, it’s just doing something that’s really relevant to them is going, oh, you know what? They really love yoga. I’m gonna send them some yoga socks, right? And, and it’s like, they get it and they go, this is so different than what it’s, it’s like you’re listening. It’s like you’re paying attention because you are, it means that you care. So show that you, you care and, and pay attention. That secret service the, my second customer service secret, that will grow your sales. And again, you know, I don’t mean to hype hyperbolize too much, the revenue part of this but it does, it does grow your revenue because it grows your reputation and reputation always pre precedes revenue. So how do we track this exactly? We don’t, nor do we want to, nor do we care about this, you know, tracking these things.
RV (15:51):
But if unexpected gift at unexpected time in a tailored way would be the first lesson. The second lesson is to anticipate the need you wanna provide, great customer service, anticipate the need. That is what great customer service is all about. Right? Good customer service is meeting the need, meeting the expectations, right? I check into the hotel and I expect to have a clean room. I expect it to be ready. I I expect it, you know, to have, you know, cool air and, you know, some, some number of amenities based on the price that I’m paying and the brand of the hotel chain, right? Those are expectations. Anticipating the need. Anticipating the need is somebody arrives late and you know that they’re, they probably missed their flight. And so maybe they don’t have their luggage, or they tell you, it’s been a rough day, I lost my luggage.
RV (16:42):
And you go, oh, you know what? Let me send you up some, let me send you up a toothbrush and some shaving cream and, and whatever. And you know, that’s anticipating the need. What you wanna learn to do with your prospects, with your customers, with your employees, your team members, with your spouse, with your kids, with anyone you’re trying to build a relationship with, is anticipate their need. By the way, this is everything we do at Brand Builders Group. Everything we do is about trying to anticipate the needs of our clients. So we’re going, okay, what do they need first? First of all, they, they need, they need education. They need to understand that, you know, there’s a, there is a framework and a structure for how to, how to build a sales page that converts the 15 piece of copywriting, right? So we gotta teach ’em that, but then we go, well, now what are they gonna need?
RV (17:29):
They’re gonna need help doing it. So we either need to introduce them to a vendor who can help get it done, or we gotta create a template for ’em. And so we go, let’s create templates that people can use, right? And then, and it’s like, okay, well now they have a template. Now what? Now they’re gonna need help building it into a page. So how, how do we, how do we create a template to actually convert the copy into, into an actual landing page? Boom, right? And so our whole company is in a constant evolution of going, anticipate the need, anticipate the need. What do they need next? How can we help our clients succeed faster? How can we help ’em succeed for less money? How, how can we help ’em create more impact? Like, what would shorten the learning curve? What would shorten the implementation cycle?
RV (18:09):
Anticipate the need. If you wanna earn the respect, the admiration of your boss, you wanna raise, anticipate the need, right? Look on their calendar, look on their cal. This is the easiest thing to do. If you have access to someone’s calendar, you go, what do they have coming up next week? And they’re not even thinking about it, right? Cuz their, their, their hair’s on fire, they’re thinking about today. And Oh my gosh, what am I doing right now? So you look at what do they have on their calendar next week? And then you go, what are all the things I could do for them to help set them up for success? Wh how much of the work could I do for them so that when they get there in an, and they find out in an unexpected fashion that so much of this is already done, anticipate.
RV (18:52):
That’s how you get promoted. I mean, straight up, that’s how you get promoted. That’s how you get raises. That’s how you become more valuable, right? You help other people succeed. That’s what value is. Value is derived from helping others succeed. So one of the easiest ways is to go, you know, you might not even have to learn anything. You might not even have to do anything different. You might just have to do it sooner. And in a more app, appropriate timing, right? A lot of this is about timing. And you go, okay, what do they have coming up? And how can I help them succeed even before they get there? Or so that when they get there, I’m delivering this information, this tool, this training, this knowledge, this resource, this, this relationship. So that it’s like, oh my gosh, you’ve already thought of this. You’ve already taken care of this.
RV (19:39):
I mean, hallelujah, thank you. Anticipate their needs. So you gotta be asking that of yourself, of all of your employees, right? And your team members and, and, and your customers and your prospects. Like what do they need next? What, what is the thing that they most need in order to take the next step? And like one of the things that we’re rolling out, if you’re a member, you know this or you’re gonna know this, we have spent the last few years building something called Instant Automation Toolkit. And Instant Automation Toolkit was about taking all of the strategy, right? We have 14 different two-day courses that make up the curriculum of Brand Builders Group, right? Like when someone, someone joins up for our entry level monthly membership, it’s like a couple hundred bucks a month. Like they get access to all 14 courses right away.
RV (20:27):
I mean, we give away the farm for like very little money. So they get access to all the courses. But then we go, okay, well now how are they gonna implement? So we’ve been building these templates for years and years because we’re going, ah, what do they need next? They need help taking this strategy and applying it, and, and we can build tools. So the, the whole mantra is how much of the work can we do for them, right? That’s what we’re trying to do. How much of the work can we do for them? Now, ultimately, we’re a strategy firm and they, people gotta do their own work. And at some point, you know, you lead the horse to water, they gotta drink, they gotta do the behaviors. There’s certain things they have to do that we can’t do, but we’re going, how much of it can we do for them?
RV (21:08):
How far down the field can we advance the ball? How can we solve a bunch of the problems in advance for them that they don’t even know they’re gonna have yet? You know, for example, once they get clear on their uniqueness, then we help ’em create their content. And then they’re gonna go, oh, shoot, how do I get trademarks and how do I get copyrights? And we go, you know what? Let us introduce you to the legal firm that we use, that built templates so that you could get all of your copywriting, all of your templates, all of your contracts done for like a very low fee because we’ve already cur curated this relationship and we’ve created all these tools. And then they go work on their keynote and we go, Hey, now that you got your keynote, there’s a good chance you’re gonna need a slide deck for that.
RV (21:47):
Right? Here’s the template that we have that we put together based on what we use and your speaker kit, and we create all these tools and assets that they don’t even know they need yet until they get there. And by the time they get there, they go, oh my gosh, I, there’s so much I need and we wanna show up and go, here it is, boom, right here for you. Anticipate the need. It’s so simple, but it’s so profound. And if you do those two things right, unexpected gift, and well put that qualify in there, unexpected, customized gift at an unexpected time, unexpected gift at an unexpected time, and you anticipate the need, if you do those two things, you will be prov and you do it consistently. And especially if you can operationalize it through your organization and your practice, and your firm and your company and your life and your personal life, if you can find a way to operationalize those things, you will be delivering world-class service, world-class experience, you will be excelling, accelerating your reputation.
RV (22:51):
And you know, there’s, there’s, there’s there interviews at least three that come to the top of my mind that you should go back and listen to if you want more on this. So one is obviously the interview that I just did with Brittany Hodak creating super fans. The other is John de Julius. We’ve had him on the show and we’ve talked about this concept. The other, the other person who I would be remiss to not mention in this, in this conversation is John Ruland. He’s the author of a book called Giftology, another close friend, also a client of ours, somebody else that we’ve learned a lot from in this area. All three of those are podcasts that are available here. So share this episode with someone you know that wants to increase the customer, improve the customer experience inside of their company and then share, go, go back and listen to those other three and share those as well and keep coming back and let us know how we can make it better, right? Sometimes we can’t always anticipate the needs we’re trying to, but if you have ideas for how we can do that, please let us know always. And I hope we get a chance to talk to [email protected] slash podcast if you’re ready to get serious about implementing and operationalizing these principles along with all the other ones that we teach here on this show. So thanks for being here. We’ll catch you next time. Bye-Bye.