Ep 550: How Professional Service Providers Can Drive Leads from YouTube with Sarah Maslowski
RV (00:06):
Welcome to the Influential Personal Brand podcast. This is the place where we help mission-driven messengers, just like you learn how to build and monetize your personal brand. My name is Rory Vaden, and I’m the co-founder of Brand Builders Group, a hall of fame speaker, and New York Times bestselling author. And this show is to help experts learn how to become more wealthy and well known. I know you’re gonna love it. Thanks for being here. Let’s get started. One of the things I become more and more enamored with as time goes on is people who are executing one tactic or a few, a small number of tactics really, really well in a way that actually grows their business. I’m less impressed by the hype of millions of followers and a lot of that stuff, which a lot of it is just not real. But I’m super excited about people who are doing something really well, serving a small audience, and turning that into a lot of impact and a lot of income.
RV (01:06):
And that’s what we’re gonna talk about today. So I have a new friend her name is Sarah Maslowski, and she’s actually a real estate agent from Keller Williams. So I’ve spoke twice recently. I spoke at Keller Williams National event called Family Reunion, and then I spoke at another huge event that they do every year called Mega Agent Camp. And I’ve gotten to know them really well. Of course, I’ve known Jay Papasan, the co-author of the One Thing for years and years and years. And so I’ve got a lot of respect for their company and their organization, their culture. And Jason who’s one of the other senior executives, he was telling me about Sarah and how she’s generating leads for her business. And I was like, oh my gosh, we gotta hear the story because Sarah just, you know, shortly after a great recession, you know, she got laid off after, you know, she had a degree in marketing, got laid off was living in South Georgia, didn’t have really any job opportunities.
RV (02:00):
She found a job as a teacher and, you know, spent seven years as like a special ed teacher. And then was moving around with her husband. And then in 2018, she got into real estate and she got licensed. And here’s what’s super impressive. She became a millionaire real estate agent in just five years. Five years. And how she, how is she doing that? She’s doing it through YouTube. 80% of her business has up to 80% has been coming from YouTube, from her YouTube channel. And she doesn’t have millions and millions of subscribers. She’s got a dedicated audience serving a very specific niche. And so when I heard this, I was like, we’ve got to have Sarah on to talk about this. So Sarah, welcome to the show.
SM (02:45):
Thank you. Thank you so much for having me.
RV (02:47):
So it was all that accurate backstory?
SM (02:50):
A hundred percent accurate, yes.
RV (02:52):
Okay. And then so you got into real estate, and how did you get into YouTube for real estate? Like, what, what was it that made you go, oh, I think I’ll start using a YouTube channel to drive leads? Because, you know, it’s a professional service and I think there’s a lot of people, we have a lot of clientele who are doctors and lawyers and chiropractors and, and CPAs. And I don’t think a lot of ’em, they, their first thought is not, Hey, I’ll grab for YouTube as like a, a way of leads. And traditionally, I mean, that’s not really how real estate, I mean, that’s not how I think of real estate transactions being done, but somehow you got into this.
SM (03:30):
Yeah, so when I first got licensed as a real estate agent, you are here in the north metro Atlanta area, and we were somewhat new to the area. So I did not have a lot of people that I knew, or a big database that I could call upon saying, Hey, are you thinking about buying or selling? So my first year and a half in real estate was a lot of hustle and grind of getting leads and clients to work with any way I could. So it was a lot of cold calling and open houses and your traditional methods of, you know, pounding the pavement in real estate. And in 20 19, 20 20, I kept hearing from marketing professionals, video is the wave of the future. You gotta be incorporating video into your marketing. And having a marketing background. I bought into this and was trying various different methods of incorporating video making videos and putting them on Facebook. And, and you have to remember back in 2020, Instagram reels and TikTok wasn’t quite a thing. So really the two options was Facebook and YouTube. And so I was taking those same informational videos that I was making on Facebook and putting them on YouTube, and I was not having much success at all
RV (04:43):
That’s good that you share that because I think a lot of people hear YouTube and then they go on there and it’s like, it doesn’t take off right away.
SM (04:51):
Yes. Yeah. So I was still committed to trying to figure out what does work, and I came across a group of other real estate agents that were having success with YouTube. And so of course I hopped over to their page to kind of see what magic sauce were they doing, or what looked different from, from my videos. And it was very apparent that their content they were making was very drastically different than what I was making. Mm-Hmm
RV (06:20):
So I, I love this. How big of an area, so like the is it based on like population? Is it just a geographic radius? Is it just like, roughly, how did you just go about that conversation of like, you know, you could go, you know, I live in, I, I live in Nashville, so it’s like, okay, so it’s a Nashville greater metro area. Is it just like, you know, Brentwood or is it like a neighborhood, like Green Hills or like that, that kind of a thing? How do you think through that?
SM (06:48):
So in the beginning when we started making content, it was more so about the town that I lived in, which is Gainesville, Georgia. And then it was like, okay, well we can’t just make, you know, 52 videos a year about Gainesville, Georgia. So we need to compare and contrast the other towns that are nearby that someone may also have the option of living in. So we started branching out and covering other towns, and then within those towns, you have certain neighborhoods that people like to be in. So some content videos are niched down a little bit more to, you know, master planned communities or golf course communities so that you’re kind of appealing to a broader audience although still staying within a niche. And another way that we started making content as well was that as people were watching our videos and then reaching out to us we started getting more retirees asking about retirement communities.
SM (07:48):
And so then it’s like, okay, well that’s another topic that we can make content on is around the retirement communities in our area. And so we started making content to serve that type of audience. And I think you said something really great at the beginning of this, which is as business owners trying to do social media, we can get really caught up in these vanity metrics of how many views are we getting, how many people are following us? But at the end of the day, if those views and those people following us aren’t translating into actual sales, it’s just for our own ego. And at the beginning when we were making content, those subscriber accounts and view counts were really low, but we were getting phone calls from people saying, Hey, I just watched your video and we’re thinking about making a move to area. We want you to help us. And so that was the big light bulb moment for me is, is that it doesn’t necessarily matter if you’re reaching a ton of people, you just have to reach the right people.
RV (08:48):
Totally. And I, and I would say that like, you know, we, we we’re behind the scenes as several of our clients are the biggest podcasters in the world, and top YouTubers. And many times the, the secret to growing a wide audience is to talk about general topics that are relevant to everybody, right? It’s like money, relationships, spirituality, health, and they’re very broad. But if you did that, you would probably not have a whole lot of people caring to show up who go, I’m looking to move to a town in gain around Gainesville, Georgia. Like, you would not target that group. So, so the way that you’re reaching that, and, and so I wanna talk about how other, other professional service providers could also apply this, because I go for sure, anyone who’s in real estate anywhere in the country could, could do this. And you go, you know, there’s lots of stuff to talk about, and I do want to dive deeper on, like, how do you select the topics in your team and all that kind of stuff.
RV (09:49):
But if someone’s listening who’s not in real estate, I would love to, to hear, I want to hear, I want to hear how you’re selecting your topics, I guess is it just kind of like top of mind? Because I think if I’m a financial planner, you know, or if I’m a doctor, I also could probably do some geographic related content or maybe it would just be to specific types of, you know, surgeries or questions. But anyways, walk me through how you select your topics. Do you do any sort of scientific process? Do you just come up off the top of your head? Or like, where do the ideas come from and, and where did they come from when you started and where do they come from now?
SM (10:35):
So a lot of it was looking at what other agents were doing across the country and having success with, and, and using that as a jumping off point to kind of mimic and copy. And over time,
SM (11:34):
So for example, you know, we have a lot of basement houses here in north Georgia. Well, basements here in North Georgia are very different than basements in the north or in the Midwest. And we have daylight basements. That was something that I had no clue of, but it becomes a great informational talking piece. And so that as you are serving clients and you’re providing this information, you’re answering their questions before they even have an opportunity to ask them to you. And you just seem like such a wealth of knowledge to your clients. So you’re building that relationship and trust with them before you even have an opportunity to talk with them in a two-way conversation. And I think to translate this type of content into other professions, I think people are missing out if you’re not providing and being that resource to answer the questions that you’re most common type of client or the people that you wanna serve have. And YouTube is a great way to do that and a long form content. But there are so many great professionals providing this type of information on TikTok that is just a world of information and, and nobody else is doing it. And so I think if you can provide, you can be the provider of that information, you know, you’re going to attract your business clientele that are going to use you.
RV (12:56):
Yeah. And I, I, when I hear that, you know, I essentially calculate that as answer questions that your prospects have. And like, that’s the content you’re making is just going, whatever, whatever industry you’re in, you make you figure out what are the most what, and, and you know what questions they have. Because if you’re doing this every day, you’re answering the same questions over and over and over for people. And it’s like if you have to answer the question more than once, make a video about it. Or even once, like if they ask you a question, it’s like every time you get asked a question, make a video about it and then put it up on YouTube. How I’d love to know about some of the logistics in terms of like, how long are these videos? How long does it take you to plan them? How many of them do you shoot at once? How long does it take you to edit them? How frequently do you post them? How long were you doing that before you really started to see actual, like legitimate business leads coming in? So
SM (14:02):
What I learned if you’re going to be successful on YouTube, you have to post on a consistent schedule and commit to that schedule every single week. Ideally one video a week is a good starting point. Long form takes a little bit more time and effort into, you know, creating engaging content. So one video a week post at the same time every single week, you can schedule that on the back end so you don’t have to be like at your computer on a Sunday at five o’clock kit and publish. But just find whatever day you can commit to. We have found that the ideal sweet spot for our videos are between eight to 10 minutes in length. You at least want them to make eight minutes long because YouTube rewards the number of minutes watched, not necessarily the percentage watched.
SM (14:50):
And so that’s also a sweet spot of where YouTube’s algorithm gets ad revenue and stuff like that on the backend to satisfy
RV (15:31):
Is the moving to Georgia is the YouTube like right, youtube.com/moving to Georgia. Mm-Hmm
SM (15:36):
Yes. and so, you know, those first videos were just a process of failing forward and trying to figure this out. You’re always gonna hate how you sound and look on video, just get over it. Uhhuh
RV (16:18):
You were just doing like one a week to start
SM (16:20):
One a week and, you know, watching those videos like a hawk to see how many people were watching. And it was very disappointing and, and discouraging because at the time, you know, some of those videos only had like 18 views. And, but you have to keep putting out content and you have to keep going in order to teach the algorithm that you’re a channel that they can trust to push out the content. Because ultimately with YouTube, you’re going to have people that search for your content, but then you’re also going to show up to people who are acting in a similar way that the algorithm is learning that might be a good viewer for your content. And so by putting out regular content, it, you know, serves the algorithm of what they wanna do. So
RV (17:13):
So tell me, tell me about this. ’cause This is a place where people get hung up, like, yeah, and do, and, and also I’d wanted know like, how did you shoot it? Were you shooting it on your phone? Were you using something else? And then like, what’s a little bit of that process for where it goes from the recording and then how it actually, the steps to get it on YouTube?
SM (17:32):
So I found out that a lot of YouTube creators use their, their iPhone, and I had one of those that didn’t require me to go out and buy anything new other than like a tripod, a good external microphone and some lighting. And so that were, was the three pieces of equipment that I needed in order to get started. And so I, you know, filmed in that terrible background that you can see in the first videos on my channel. Over time I learned like, oh, we should probably try to make a little bit better lighting in the background. But those things came with time after learning, you know failing your way forward, right? So after learning that, I’m not an editor, I found an editor that is essentially virtual. We upload the video into a Google Drive link and send it off to him along with some supporting clips that we want to go along with it.
SM (18:25):
You can use third party websites to get video stock footage or you can provide your own. Again, it’s like one of those things, you can’t really overthink it a whole lot, even though you’re going to want to overthink it a ton. But it’s just more important to get a finished product out there and get going. So we send it off to our editor, he edits it gets it back to us. And my rule of thumb is, is that once it’s like 90% good, we go with it. Because I don’t wanna spend hours going back and forth, back and forth perfecting something when you know, you I need to be doing other things. So the expectation is, is that our editor’s going to learn from, from that feedback and make the next video even better. So you how you
RV (19:10):
Find editor
SM (19:13):
Through word of mouth, but also through websites that offer virtual video editing services and you know, you’re not gonna get it right the first time, usually with the editor that you pick. And again, it’s like one of those things where you have to fail forward and say, okay, well, you know, we use this person for a couple of months. I now know what I’m looking for and let’s go try to find, you know, somebody else to do that. And
RV (19:40):
Are these websites that are like, like Upwork or Fiverr or LinkedIn, just like that kind of thing? Yeah. Like you just post in a, you know, or a top toll is another one that you just post a job description and people start submitting Yeah. And then you’re reviewing their portfolio.
SM (19:55):
Yep. That, that’s one way. There’s also using virtual assistants in the Philippines online jobs.ph is a great website where there’s tons of talented editors overseas that can do a lot of great work. There are video editing companies that you could pay a flat fee to per month and they’ll, you know, edit however many videos you can give them during that time period. So there’s lots of different great websites and you just have to keep trying one, you might have a great local person that you can hire or a teenager or college student that’s really well skilled in this. It just needs to not be you doing the editing uhhuh
RV (20:31):
SM (21:04):
So the title and thumbnail are way more important than what you think. And there’s just a, a few basic things to know about that. You, your, your thumbnail is like the book cover of your video. And so oftentimes that’s the first thing that someone’s seeing. And so if you’re thumbnail and your title aren’t catchy enough, then you could have the greatest content in the world. But if someone’s not clicking on it to even get to your content, they’re never watching you. So you do wanna spend some time and effort on the thumbnail and title. A good thumbnail usually has no more than three to four elements. The words, if you’re gonna have words on your thumbnail, it needs to compliment the title, but not repeat the title. That’s oftentimes a mistake I see a lot of people make, is that they just take whatever the title and put it on the thumbnail.
SM (21:53):
So you wanna have kinda like complimentary goods there. And the title, you, at least for me, I, I don’t feel like on a very clickbaity or salesy type personality, and on YouTube you do kind of wanna lean into that clickbaity title. So negative titles work really, really well. Pay attention to headlines or things that you may see like on Buzzfeed articles, stuff like that. Those types of headlines translate really well into those to deliver what you want the message that you wanna deliver. And that thumbnail and title just kinda gets them in the door.
RV (22:30):
Yeah, so basically you’re just like paying attention to headlines and you have, you have to play a little bit of that headline game. That’s a good, that’s a good tip too about the, like, not repeating the title. I see people do a lot of that, which is interesting ’cause you go, I have these two pieces of digital real estate to use. Like, I might as well use both of them to communicate a different message. And then, and then in terms of the leads, okay, so let’s say you do all this stuff. How do, like where do you point people to come back to you? Do you put it in the video itself? Do you do it at the end of the video? Do you like, stop the video and interrupt and tell people to go to your website? Do you like put it in the, the video notes or the caption or whatever? Like, where do you actually make that call to action? And then like, what is the call to action that you make?
SM (23:21):
So the call to action is, is very simple. It’s, you know, if you’re thinking about making a move and you know, I would love to be a real estate agent, you can find that information below this video, click the link. And so that link takes them to scheduling simply like a discovery phone call with our team. And you wanna get very, very easy and simple and not, you know, overcomplicate with a bunch of offers or lead magnets. One thing that I’ve learned is you don’t want to put any phone numbers or anything like hard copy edited into your video. And the reason is, is that, you know, these videos are gonna live out there forever. So your branding may change, your phone number may change. So you can always go back and edit the description of videos, but you can never go back and actually edit the video itself on YouTube. So you always wanna make sure that you’re doing that call to action and pointing them to the description of the video. Another unique thing about YouTube is that you can put a pinned comment underneath all of your videos as well, so that it’s always the first comment that people see. So we often kind of repeat our call to action or how someone can get in contact with us there as well.
RV (24:29):
Mm-Hmm
SM (25:23):
So I’ve had other agents and, and other practitioners do this, and they have success in as little as a few weeks. And then, you know, for some it also takes months. The one great thing though is that you’re creating this evergreen content that is, that is there and people are watching during all hours of the day, all hours of the night. And it’s free. It’s not something that you’re, you know, essentially paying for or running ad behind, and there’s no greater marketing tool that can do that for you and, and help provide information to potential clients while you are out doing other things. And just to touch on not liking yourself on camera and that sort of thing, one of the things that was very inspiring to me whenever I started this was seeing the other types of people that were having success with this. They were from all walks of life, all different types of personalities, all different looks and ages and camera personas and how they showed up. And some were very boring. And that was really though encouraging. ’cause I was like, oh, well if it’s working for that person, I can, I, I know I can at least match that energy on camera and I can be that. So that was super encouraging for me. And I I, I see all kinds of people having success with this.
RV (26:35):
Yeah. Yeah. It’s really cool. You just, you’re being, you’re being useful to people and automating trust as we, we like to say is just, you know, they’re sitting there learning from you going, well, who, who are they gonna call? I mean, they’re gonna call the person. They’ve been like watching your videos and you’ve been adding value to their life. I love it. So where do you want people to go if they wanna like link up with you or learn more about what you’re doing? I know that we, we will, we will link to the actual YouTube channel itself, just so people can get a sense of what you’re doing. Moving to Georgia is the, again, the handle for YouTube, but anywhere else you’d point people.
SM (27:06):
Yeah. If you wanna connect on Instagram, my name is Sarah Maslowski. That’s my handle over there. And I look forward to connecting and sharing more.
RV (27:13):
Awesome. Well thanks for this, Sarah. This was super generous and tactical and practical, practical and actionable
SM (27:28):
Thank you.
Ep 549: Simple Steps to Set Your Next Big Goal | Caroline Miller Episode Recap
AJV (00:06):
Welcome to the Influential Personal Brand podcast. This is the place where we help mission-driven messengers, just like you learn how to build and monetize your personal brand. My name is Rory Vaden, and I’m the co-founder of Brand Builders Group, a hall of fame speaker, and New York Times bestselling author. And this show is to help experts learn how to become more wealthy and well known. I know you’re gonna love it. Thanks for being here. Let’s get started.
AJV (00:34):
Do you have a dream that feels just slightly out of reach? Like you’ve got this thing that you really wanna do, and maybe you haven’t even told anyone, but it just feels a little impossible. Well, we’re gonna talk about how do you set big goals today and how to actually reach ’em. And I think first of all, we should talk about what are big goals. And big goals are things that stretch you. Big goals that are, are things that take you out of your comfort zone. These are things that are not necessarily attainable or reachable. They’re not realistic. They’re big. They’re they’re big. They’re gonna force you to be different, learn different things, try new things, fail
AJV (01:32):
These are big goals, and there are, they are goals that change you in the process of trying to reach them. Do you don’t even have to reach them. It’s the process that happens in you trying to reach them. Now, why I think this is a huge part of this. It’s like, why should you set big goals? One because it forces you to become a new and better version of yourself. It forces you to grow. And growth is good. Challenge being challenged is good. Hard work is good. It produces discipline and resilience and work ethic that cannot be, cannot be learned any other pla any other way or in any other place. But there has to be a, a why behind this. That’s internal, that’s intrinsic. It cannot be extrinsic or external. It cannot just be about, oh, I wanna make more money or I wanna beat this other person.
AJV (02:31):
There has to be a, a profound why behind this, that even if you have setbacks, even if you experience moments of failure, even if you have moments of doubt that you proceed because it’s significant enough to keep trying in the midst of it not working. Right? That is really important. The why has to be bigger than the why not, right? And when you’re setting big goals, these are dreams, these are life goals. They have to really have a fundamental why that is significant. Beyond worldly stuff, beyond titles or ego or money or pride or ambition or success. It has to be beyond that. Okay? Now, next thing we’ve gotta break it down. Like what do you actually have to learn in order to do the thing? I just had a, an amazing podcast interview with Caroline Miller who wrote the new book Bake Goals.
AJV (03:28):
And a huge part of it is you have to just determine using goal setting theory GST. Is this a learning goal? In other words, is this something that you’ve never done before? Or is it a performance goal, which is, you’ve done this before, but the goal is to do more of it or do it better, right? So first and foremost, you have to determine in this big goal, what what am I gonna have to learn? Because in order to do it better, you first have to learn it, right? In order to have performance goals, you have to have done it before. So if it’s a big goal, then ask yourself, is this truly a learning goal or is it a performance goal? And if it’s brand new and you’ve never done it before, it’s a learning goal. So what do you need to learn? Who do you need to learn from?
AJV (04:16):
How quickly can you learn it? What resources do you need to learn it? Do you have the money to invest into learning this? These are all things that are a part of reaching really big goals. And the first thing you have to ask is, is it a learning goal or is it a performance goal? And if it’s a learning goal, then we need to give ourselves grace in the process. IE patience, right? Because there are things that you have to learn before you can get results, okay? And so that’s kind of getting into the specifics. Is it a learning goal or is it a performance goal? Right? Then we gotta have our, our, our group our positivity group, our accountability group, our mentorship group, our coaching group, whatever we wanna call it. But we have to have our group, IE our people. We have to have systems and groups of accountability, but not just accountability, but also of support, right?
AJV (05:10):
I think one of the most important things that I actually talked about with Caroline Miller on this podcast is how important it is for us to be around people who believe that we can do it, but also who believe in doing big things in general, right? It, it’s, you have to discern and decide who gets to come along on this big goal journey with you, and who doesn’t
AJV (06:09):
That, and that could include mentor groups, coaching programs masterminds. These could also be friends and family. But you really have to discern, it’s like, Hey, I know I’m gonna need positive influences in my life. I know I’m gonna need people who believe in me, believe in what I’m doing, and also who just believe bigger in general. So, right. So those are your, that’s your group, right? Systems and people of accountability. But not just accountability but support, right? But this also includes a, a peer group of learning from people who’ve done what you’ve done in a way that you can also do it, right? So that’s looking for mentors, coaches, role models who have achieved what you want to achieve in a way that you can do it, right? So I think about myself all the time when I’m looking for a different coach or a, a mastermind to join.
AJV (06:57):
And it’s like, it’s one thing to go, I know they’ve done it, but I also have to discern, did they do it in a way that I think would work for me?
AJV (07:40):
Or if I’m gonna have to slow it down and pace it out. But this is giving myself grace to do something that is big that I haven’t ever done before. But also the time to do it with people who believe in me, who will support me, but then also discerning who I need to learn from. And it’s not anyone. It’s a specific type of person. So that I can follow in those footsteps and, and learn in a way that I can digest and do it in my unique way, right? So those are all systems of accountability and your people group, right? Next is we’re gonna have to build some resilience to do big things. We’re gonna, and that includes discipline. That includes perseverance. That in that includes some grit, right? We’re gonna have to mentally note in advance if we’re gonna do something big what could go wrong and what am I gonna do when, probably not if, but when bad thing happens. Prepare in advance for setbacks. Don’t get caught off guard. Fully expect them so that when they come, they don’t shut you down. They are, they may be naysayers. What are you gonna do if they come your way? There may be setbacks. It may go slower than you want. So what are you gonna do if that happens? Things may break, things may fail, things may not launch. Well, it may not go the way you want. What are you going to do if that happens?
AJV (09:15):
Know in advance so that when it comes, you have a plan in place to keep moving forward. ’cause If you don’t, these are the things that knock us off the horse. These are the things that throw us off. Throw us off the rails. And if we’re not prepared, we lose so much time that we give up. We give up hope. We give up that this even is something we wanted to do. And so we stop. And the only failing that happens is when we quit, not quit. The things that we decide are no longer good for us, but we quit the things because they got too hard for us. There’s a difference between quitting because it’s no longer good for me and quitting because it just got too hard for me. Don’t quit. ’cause It gets hard. That’s where character is built. That’s where you are built. Don’t quit because it gets hard. You quit when it’s no longer good for you. But just remember, hard things are good for you.
AJV (10:11):
Hard things create character that cannot be built anywhere else. But that is up, up to you to discern what those things are, but prepare in advance, prepare in advance for them. Next, take consistent action. Co consistency, right? It’s not the first time you’ve ever heard. This won’t be the last time you’ve ever heard this. And that’s because it’s true.
AJV (11:15):
This is all about taking action. And that, that requires a plan. You have to know what direction you’re going to take the first or the hundredth step. So know your direction and have it well mapped out so that you can benchmark. Is this a daily, a weekly, a monthly, quarterly thing? And also, where do I need to be at these different benchmarks? Where do I need to be? 90 days in the journey, six months in the journey, 12 months in the journey. If we’re gonna set out to do big things, we need a big detailed plan, right? And that is about how do you set out those daily consistent things that you’re gonna do? And again, they, they’re not all daily. Some are daily. But what are the things that need to happen to create consistency to hitting this big goal? And last, but most certainly not least, is what are your points of reflection? And I think this is one of the things that is most important in my life, is on a very, I would say, consistent basis, for lack of another word, since I just talked about consistency. You have to remember not just why you’re doing this, but more importantly who you’re doing it for. And I have to tell you right now, it shouldn’t be you. Big goals should not just be centered on you.
AJV (12:31):
That is one of the first ways that you won’t achieve them. It’s because it was too isolated to just you, and that’s just not big enough. Doing it just for yourself isn’t big enough. So when I talk about have reflection on the who, I mean, who is this goal really for? Is it for your kids? Is it for your family? Is it for your spouse? Is it for your clients? Is it for your future clients? Is it for the next generation? But who is this for? And remember that when you’re doing this, it’s not just a goal for a thing. There is impact for a person when you achieve your goals. And that, that that goes beyond you. And if you do it well, and if you do it right, if it’s really big, it goes beyond just your friends and family too.
AJV (13:21):
It has the opportunity to impact your community. It has the impact to, you know, potentially impact your nation or even the world. Like that is a big goal. And big goals require a big focus on who, who is this for? Like, who am I building this business for? Who am I making this content for? Who am I writing this book for? Who am I doing this, you know, sporting event for who, whatever it is, it’s like, who is this for? Is it to prove that it can be done for everyone who comes after me? Is it to put a stop to the chaos that’s happening in and around, you know, my community? Who is it for? And if you re remind yourself and remember that there are people at stake here, then it, that is what gives you some endurance, that gives you some ammunition to push through on the dark nights when you’re like, what am I doing?
AJV (14:18):
What was I thinking? Well, what you were thinking is that people are worth it because they are. So don’t forget in the midst of numbers and metrics and things and steps and lessons, that there is a who at the center that will benefit from you accomplishing this goal. And it’s beyond you and it’s beyond your family potentially beyond your community. But there is a who, a group of people, a person that you have the opportunity to have life-changing impact on if you do this. And that is what should keep you moving. It’s the who at the center of those big goals.
Ep 548: The Power of Setting Big Goals with Caroline Miller
AJV (00:02):
Hey everybody, welcome to another episode on the Influential Personal Brand podcast, a j Vaden here. Super excited to introduce you guys to a new friend of mine. And also super excited to get to have this conversation literally on the eve, right this as this podcast is reaching your ears. This is the eve of her book launch her new book called Big Goals. We’re gonna be talking to Caroline Miller today who is an eight times, let me say that again. An eight times bestselling author, an international speaker, and a globally renowned expert and positive psychology. And let me just say, we all need a little bit more positivity right now.
AJV (00:56):
Looking forward to next year, we should all be in the mindset on what are the goals that we have for the next year. Or some of us are thinking three, five years, 10 years, but oh yeah. One of the things that we wanna challenge is, but are we setting the right goals and are we setting big goals? And so this is a conversation today about what’s the science and the power behind big goals. And Caroline, how, how, how long have you been actually writing this book? Like, not just the physical words, but the, the, the research and the, the data. Like how long has this book been in progress?
CM (01:38):
I would love to say my whole life I’ve been obsessed with goals, but really ever since the science of goal setting lock and latham’s goal setting theory was introduced to me in 2005. That’s when my life changed. And this book is the result of squeezing the tube of toothpaste earlier this year to get out a brand new streamlined guide to this science. ’cause Most people don’t know it. And it’s extraordinary to me that most people don’t know it.
AJV (02:04):
Yeah. Like, I just wanted to hear, it’s like, that’s like, we’re talking about almost 20 years of data and research and just experience and all of the things in that’s gonna go into the next hour. So Yeah, when we think about the amount of time and expertise and just dedication spent on this subject matter, subject matter, I would just highly encourage, like, think about this for a second and then we’re gonna jump into the interview. What if in the next hour you could get the consolidated data and findings from 20 years of research that can empower you to set bigger and better goals for your life, would it be worth it? And I bet the answer is yes. So stick around, stay for the whole episode and we’re gonna start that now. So, Caroline, welcome to the show.
CM (02:52):
Well, that’s galvanizing. I’d stick around
AJV (03:04):
Well, I, I wanna know. So I mean, a part of why I wanted to have you on this show is like, you know, the first question I had for you, and we had talked just a little bit about this before I hit record, is like, what do you think separates big goals from all of the other goals that are being set? ’cause If, just for context for, if you’re listening, as you’re reflecting on the goals that you had for this year, as, as I did kind of prepping for this interview, and as you look forward to the goals that you’re setting next year, it’s like, are these big like
CM (03:53):
Well, I think it’s baked into the word big. I think big girl goals are the ones that have some of our passion and the things that we’re most excited about baked into them. So, big goals change our lives. They do change the world. They change our world. Sometimes they change the entire world. And because they’re so big, they require a different set of skills and talents and focus and grit that regular local goals don’t have. And we know from the science, I’m gonna share with you the big secret goal setting theory. We know the best outcomes across the board come from setting challenging and specific goals. And those are big goals. And most people set no goals or low goals that they’re pretty sure they’re gonna accomplish. And what happens is the world, the world rewards people who set big goals because of what goes into achieving them and how much awe they can inspire in you and others. So we all need to have big goals, and we all need to find out what we’re made up in the process of going after our own big goals.
AJV (05:02):
As someone who does typically set goals, how, how could I even define for myself what’s a big goal?
CM (05:11):
A big goal should be if you stretch your hand out and your fingertips are at the end, a big goal is past your fingertips. Mm-Hmm.
AJV (06:11):
Hmm. That’s so good. And I love, I literally like wrote this down, it’s like big goals change you in the process.
CM (06:19):
Yeah. They change you. They, yeah. That’s so Yeah. Well, they change you because it’s, it says that you have audacity, that you’re willingness to push all your chips in the middle of the table. You’re willing to find out what you made of, you’re willing to find out who has your back. In the process of doing this, you often find out who really has your back. Not people who say they do, but who’s there. And there’s a, a trick I can share with you from psychology where you, you know, who has your back by one thing that they do. I’ll get back to that. But it does change you because you begin to ladder up to more and more things that you’re passionate about that are important to you when you play a little bit bigger. Now, let me just say, asterisk has to be your goal. It can’t be your parents’ goal, your spouse’s goal, your culture’s goal, your religion’s goal. It has to be something that lights you up. Mm-Hmm.
AJV (07:37):
You know what I, what I love about what you just said is like, what I heard is that
CM (07:46):
Oh, what a concept.
AJV (07:52):
You know, and it’s, I think a lot of people want big things, but they don’t wanna have to do a lot of work.
CM (08:00):
And that has really changed in, in the last few generations. That’s a piece of what drove me towards this book because I raised three wonderful adult children, and I happened to be raising them during the self-esteem movement when we were told as parents, tell your kids they’re winners. Give them trophies even if they don’t make the team valedictorians, were taken out of school. Playgrounds were dumbed down so that nobody could get hurt, comfort animals for all. I mean, I gotta tell you, the whole world became a dumbed down bubble wrapping of this generation. And so for many of them, the first time that they get any real honest feedback about who they are, this grades are so inflated that’s been proven is when they get a real performance review in the workplace. And for some, it’s like, what do you mean I didn’t exceed expectations by showing up?
CM (08:57):
I mean, whatcha whatcha saying? So yeah. So I think this concept of doing hard things was filtered out of society and not just in the United States. Really everywhere. It was a movement that swept the world. And there’s always pockets of exceptions there, there athletes, they’re Eagle Scouts. There are people who pursue, you know, passions. They start companies. They have, you know, instruments that they play. However, there was a zeitgeist, there was a cultural revolution against doing hard things because you’re not supposed to be stressed. And in the process of removing stress from our children’s lives, we didn’t make them resilient. They didn’t develop grit. So I wrote a book called Getting Grit that came out in 2017 because I really wanted to talk about the fact that I cultivated grit when I set the biggest goal of my life in my early twenties to, to save my own life.
CM (09:50):
I had bulimia. And it was a time when there was no cure, no hope you were gonna be bulimia for the rest of your life. If you made it that long, you’d probably lose your teeth. You probably wouldn’t be able to have children. I mean, it came with all kinds of side effects, but it was hopeless. And I decided I wanted to live more than I wanted to die, more than I wanted to chase an image of what my body could possibly look like if I got good enough at this bulimia thing. But I lost everything. I lost, I lost my sport. I, I lost piano. I limped through Harvard. I’m not sure how I got through it, but I did. And I hit my left bottom at 21 and decided I wanted to recover. My parents who didn’t know about it, nobody.
CM (10:33):
It was my goal. And because of that, I cultivated grit One day at a time. I failed. I failed, I made mistakes. But you know what? I kept getting up and I had this big passionate goal. I wanna live and I wanna survive ’cause I must have more to give to this world than my swimming times and my SAT sports and I survive. And I wrote a book called, my Name is Caroline. That really set me on a course of sharing how you have a big dream like recovery or going to the moon or living in a foreign country and, you know, pursuing a dream job there, how do you do it? And I decided that in order to cultivate grit, you have to have certain qualities that are not inborn, but you have to decide. You wanna work hard and have passion, and have persistence, and have patience and have humility and all the qualities that go into it. That’s what it takes to achieve big goals. And we all should have them, but we should all know, going back to your point, work is involved and it’s gonna be hard. And that’s just the way it is.
AJV (11:42):
So I wanna talk about that for just a second in this, you know, concept of setting pit goals. Because inherently that means you’re doing something you’ve never done before, which is, is gonna require you to learn things you don’t know, try things you haven’t tried, work with people you haven’t met. There’s a lot of that Right. Associated with that. Yeah. So a question that I have is, I would imagine, and I’m pretty certain many people struggle staying motivated when tur when working towards big goals like this. And so, mm-hmm. I would be curious to hear from you, like what are the, some of the strategies that you’ve uncovered or even some of the science and the data of how do you drive and resilience when you’re trying to achieve something that’s real hard?
CM (12:29):
Well, this goes back to the secret I promised I’d share with your listeners. Okay. It’s all about goal setting theory. So I was introduced to goal setting theory when I went back to school. I went to the University of Pennsylvania to get a master’s degree in applied positive psychology. So it was the first 33 people in the world to get this degree in the science of happiness. And in assignment that fall 2005 was goal setting theory and Lockman latham’s goal setting theory is ranked number one of 73 management theories. Number one, never a replication crisis. None of these challenges that exist for so many theories. And it divides goals into learning goals and performance goals. And it’s simple and elegant, but if you get it wrong, you can really screw up businesses. I mean, it can cause businesses to fail. It can cause you to disengage from your goals.
CM (13:18):
My recovery from bulimia was a learning goal. And so whenever you’re doing something for the first time, maybe the world’s doing it for the first time, you have to give yourself the grace of learning the skills, finding the right people, learning how to make the best decisions learning how to have resilience and grit as you fail and get up and have hope. And so you have to set those metrics in the process of having a learning goal to tell you, I’m going in the right direction. Because goal setting theory says you have to have feedback. You have to have the kind of feedback that tells you that you’re on the right track, you’re doing the right thing, this is going well, or it’s not going well. And then you pivot. And you always have to have the humility to be teachable by the process of pursuing goals. But also because you have the humility to have people around you who are your board of advisors, and you listen to them and you trust them and you seek their advice. And ca counsel, because something called stupid grit is when you don’t have any of that and you’re sure you know how to do it, and you’re just gonna bulldoze your way to whatever the outcome is that you think is the right way to go with the strategy, you’re sure it’s gonna help you.
AJV (14:30):
Mm. And I, and I, and I love that it’s like the difference between a learning goal and a performance goal and learning is realizing, Hey, I’m doing this for the first time. Yes. Or be some trial and error. There’s likely gonna be successes and failures. It’s gonna be one of those, like I take two steps forward, take five steps back. Right?
CM (14:51):
Right. Like
AJV (14:51):
That. I think that’s a really good and helpful kind of this way of even going like, Hey, am I, as I’m setting goals, are these learning goals IE first time things? Or are these performance goals which are right improvement? Is that a a good assumption?
CM (15:07):
Yes. So I, in the book, in big goals, I call them checklist goals because these are things like recipes. You’ve done them before and there might be a way to fine tune the recipe. Maybe another teaspoon of sugar is gonna make the banana bread taste better. But performance goals are things where you can reliably say, if I follow these steps and I do it in this order in which I’ve gotten the best outcomes before I can expect this outcome by this date. So there are lots of things that we do that we’ve done before. And what we need to do when we set out to, you know, pursue learning goals or performance goals, is first ask ourselves what’s new? If it’s a performance goal, a checklist goal, what’s new? What’s come out in artificial intelligence, or what’s new in the world in technology that I can use to actually use this checklist goal, this performance goal to get faster, better, stronger.
CM (15:58):
I’ll give you an example from the Paris Olympics. There were nine swimmers from the United States in the Paris Olympics who were training with something called digital twins at the University of Virginia. And so the fast suits are gone and poach have really expanded as much knowledge as they can have at the moment to train these elite athletes. But they found that you could create a digital twin of yourself doing the perfect stroke, perfect streamlining coming off the walls with no friction or drag with your head. And what they found was they compared the current swimmer with the perfect digital twin, and they would use the digital twin to make little tweaks in their strokes. I’ll just give you an example. Kate Douglas set a world record and won the 200 meter brushstroke with the digital twin training. And so for a year and a half, she worked on moving her head just like half an inch because the computer model said, you do that, you’re gonna set, you’re gonna set lots of records.
CM (16:58):
So it’s work. So that’s a performance goal. She knew how to swim, she knew how to train. She, she had to coach, she had the teammates. But this digital twin was new. Learning goals. The first thing you have to do is flatten your learning curve as fast as possible. Not, oh, I’ll just do my best. And I’ll see how it goes. It’s where am I gonna get the knowledge? Who do I need to meet? Is this knowledge on YouTube? Is it in Wikipedia? Is it in a book? Is it in a documentary? Who’s doing it really well in the world? And I can study them by reading a biography or whatever it is. And that’s how you eventually turn learning goals into performance goals. And this is the biggest mistake being made in the workplace right now. And I’ve been all over the world. I’ve worked with lots of companies, everyone’s setting goals. Nobody is using goal setting theory, but they all have fancy productivity dashboards and they’re paying a fortune for ’em. And I am mystified that the number one theory, the number one theory with decades of rigorous scholarship behind it is still unknown by most of the world. And most of the world is setting goals. And I’m gonna, I’m fixing that with the book. Big Goals, goals. I had to, we’re in a dire situation right now, partly because of Covid, but that’s another point I can make.
AJV (18:14):
Yeah, I know. It’s interesting. In my prior life for prior to Brain Builders Group, you know, I was a sales consultant and I did that for 14 years and all, all I did was monitoring performance metrics and word performance metrics. Right? Never once or did I come across what would be considered a learning goal. These were all,
CM (18:36):
Wow,
AJV (18:37):
All performance goals. Mm-Hmm.
CM (18:43):
You don’t know how to do it,
AJV (18:44):
Right. It was, I never heard that, ever. Right. Never saw it. Think about dashboards. And so can you just give the audience like a tangible example of like, what, what would it look like on paper to have a learning goal versus a performance goal? Like what, what would that sound like in like real world?
CM (19:04):
I have so many examples I could give you. I’ll just give you one of my, one of my clients who was a superstar working in a big department store system. She had risen as high as she could and she knew how to do her job and she always did it well. She got lots of awards, bonuses, you know, stars on the wall, et cetera. And she had a dream of being an entrepreneur. And there was this very specific kind of company she wanted to start. So she got money from family and friends. She used all her bonus money and she launched this company. And by the time she found me, she was about to throw in the towel on her big bowl, her big dream. And here’s what she said to me, Caroline, every Monday morning I dial into a mastermind group and we all announce our goals for the week. And, and mine are always aggressive because that’s the way I’ve always operated. It’s always worked for me. Big goals. And then by Friday we’re, we call back and, you know, we talk about our progress. And every Friday I’ve failed at all my goals. And I asked her one simple question, I’ll, I’ll make up a name. Natalie. Natalie, how many of the goals that you’re announcing on Monday for this new business, this entrepreneurial business, are things that you’ve done before?
CM (20:12):
Yeah. And she thought about it and she went, none of ’em. I’ve never opened, done Shopify. I’ve never put booths together. I’ve never gone to trade shows to sell things. I’ve never walked into pet stores to try to sell this. I’ve never done any of these things, but that doesn’t matter ’cause I just work very hard and I should be able to do all these things. And I said, eventually you can. But what you did was you assumed that you could perform and have outcomes that you wanted by Friday or the next Friday or whatever, without giving yourself the grace of learning these things. You haven’t gotten a mentor. She was very proud. She hadn’t gotten a mentor, she hadn’t worked with a small business administration. She hadn’t taken on the time and the willingness to learn all the things that were the fundamentals. So on paper, what does it look like?
CM (20:58):
You know, she had to learn Excel, she had to get a mentor, she had to build a budget, she had to find an internet consultant who actually put Shopify on a website. She was trying to make her own website. I got, I could go on and on and on. But whenever you are superstar, you’re doing really well in one department of life and you try to go to another department, but you’ve never, you’ve never done those things before. You’re just thinking, I’m a high achiever, I can do it. You’re setting yourself up for failure, disengagement, depression, feeling overwhelmed, and then coding yourself as someone who just can’t do those things. And we live in a quick fix society, and this is common. We want instant results. And we think that we can just transfer hard work from one area to hard work in another area. It doesn’t work like that. Goal setting theory breaks it out beautifully.
AJV (21:45):
I love that so much. And you know, what I love about that so often is that so resonates with so many of the conversations that we hear at our company, brand builders group about people come in and they, they have big, big dreams of, yeah, I want to rock and launch a New York Times bestselling book. I want to build this coaching program. I want to impact a million people speaking on stages. I wanna do these big things. And when all of those haven’t happened in a year, they’re like, I failed.
CM (22:15):
I’m just, you failed. Blame it on you then
AJV (22:19):
No that those things take time, right? There’s, you know, there’s a process, there’s a, there’s a system of, back to what you said, it’s like we expect all these results and we don’t Yeah. Actually give credit to what you have to learn and the process to get the results. And those are
CM (22:39):
Right. And how do you learn? Those are perfect examples. And sometimes what we do is we deputize, we hire a company or we go to some guru and we think, well, that person’s gonna give us all the secrets and if we just work with them, it’ll all just magically happen. There’s always work involved. And what I’m sure you’re describing is the process of learning the steps on the way to being able to accomplish these things. And what do you do? You study exemplars of success in whatever that area is. And let’s say it’s a woman who wants to make a, you know, make it, make it big on a stage. And all she’s studying are men who’ve been able to do the same thing. That doesn’t transfer either. And we’re just now realizing that age agentic women have to operate differently from men because women get penalized for displaying that kind of behavior.
CM (23:30):
So you have to make sure that the role models, role models you’re studying look like you, sound like you, maybe they’re from your culture and that what worked for them will work for you. So often what we see is somebody on YouTube or on Instagram or whatever, saying, well, this is how I lost weight, or this is how I built my business, or this, this, this, this, this. And we think, ’cause it worked for them, it’ll work for us. Stop and ask yourself this question. Will it work for me, my learning style, the kind of money that I can invest in this? Mm-Hmm.
CM (24:18):
And it’s the how, how are you gonna accomplish these goals? And my acronym is bridge. You start with brainstorming a certain kind of brainstorming. You go to the relationships. Who are the people? Who are the people who have to be with me on this journey? And who shouldn’t be with me on this journey? Who’s gonna be negatively contagious? People don’t ask themselves that question. What kind of investments do I have to make up time, energy, money, character, strengths, whatever. Here’s a big one. Decision making. People don’t understand their own decision making processes. They’ve never done, for example, a noise audit on the noise that has entered into the decision making. And that’s Danny Kahneman’s work on. And it’s bigger than bias. What kinds of decisions are we making when we’re impacted by the north in our lives? And then grit. Good. Grit is the G.
CM (25:06):
How do we cultivate grit if we’re gonna need it? It’s a big goal. We’re gonna need it. And then excellence. What are we shooting for? Not, which cannot be measured, cannot be achieved, and vice versa. And you can’t hit a target. You can’t see, you have to set a standard of excellence for your big goal. And I’m gonna go back to lock and Latham. The best results for both learning goals and performance goals are what’s called challenging and specific past my fingertips. Stretch your arm out. That’s challenging and specific. So that’s what we’re shooting for. So you always have to go through that, that rigorous strategy building before you get going. You skip a step, you’re gonna have to go back anyway, so you might as well do all the work at, at the very beginning.
AJV (25:46):
You know, it’s the, so in parallel to what we teach at Brain Builders Group, ’cause we’re a strategy firm and we go strategies like the architectural blueprint where you wouldn’t start building a house until you had a solid detailed, you know, well-defined plan. And you don’t start building up until you go down. Right? Yeah, yeah. And
CM (26:07):
It’s gotta lay the cornerstone.
AJV (26:09):
People like to skip through strategy, they like to hurry through it ’cause it’s not the fun stuff. Yeah. it’s, it, it’s the hard stuff, right? It’s the stuff that feels like no progress is being made. However, when you do it right, everything else allows to go faster. Now, you have said something a couple of times, and I’ve jotted this down. You mentioned the swimmer with her team and her coach. You’ve mentioned mentors and coaches and role models. I am assuming that the people component of this plays a role. So I’m just curious, like when, when you’re looking at big goals, like what is the people component and, and probably specifically accountability, right? How much does that really play in? And I love what you said, it’s like you gotta pay, pay attention on who should come along for the journey and who shouldn’t. Like who’s positive, who’s negative. So how do you decide like who should come along and what people I need and what accountability support that’s required?
CM (27:10):
Yeah. Big question. Important question. So Shelly Gable at the University of California, Santa Barbara did research that found that when you share a big goal or dream with somebody, there is one way to respond that tells you that that person has your back and wants you to succeed. And that research finding is this, if they respond with curiosity and enthusiasm called active, constructive responding, that person just signaled to you that they’re gonna be with you to celebrate, to pick you up. When things aren’t going well, they’re gonna check in on you. Those are the people you wanna surround yourself with. There are three other ways to respond, but they’re all negative. But that’s what you’re looking for. So you’re looking for accountability. That’s one. You’re looking for people who support you. You are looking to isolate yourself from the negative contagion. And I wanna say something very special about women.
CM (28:02):
Women make massive mistakes in this area. What women do is they surround themselves with frenemies friends who are enemies. Because the research shows that 84% of women do this because they don’t want anyone to think they’re not nice. And so women endure a lot of what I call incoming fire. A lot of microaggressions, a lot of comments about passive, passive aggressive. Oh, why do you want a goal that big? Are you gonna see your children enough? I mean, I could go on and on and on, but there’s a robust set of studies at, its kind of sickening when you look at them showing that the number one detractors of age agentic women are other women. It comes from men too. And a recent meta-analysis found that the one area where women have made zero progress since 1940 in other people’s eyes in the workplace is in being goal directed.
CM (28:58):
And nagen, we’ve gone up in terms of being seen as competent and warm and communal. But when it comes to being ambitious, this is where we pay a social penalty because we’ve violated stereotype norms. And this is the hidden hand, I believe that’s holding women back. I truly believe it’s holding women back. So the answer to that is every woman should be in a mastermind group, a self formed mastermind group that is full of people who have proven through active, constructive responding and other methods along the way that tell you, this person is really here for me and I wanna support this person as well who meet monthly. Maybe it’s virtual, maybe it’s in person, doesn’t matter. But you must be around a team of people who believe in you because then we have more hope. It’s, it becomes bidirectional and we develop this upward spiral of wellbeing.
CM (29:53):
We become more creative, we take more risks. We’re, we’re happier. I could go on and on and on. And men are more transactional. It’s just a fact. Men, men develop the kinds of relationships where you get a piece of pie that means I get a piece of pie. Let’s all have pie. You know, unfortunately women have been socialized and wired to think you got pie. That means I don’t get pie, so I’m gonna take your pie. Or I’m gonna tell everyone that your pie is terrible. Or some version of that. And I’m not being general, I I, I vowed not to speak about this part unless I knew the research called because everyone has an N of one. Everybody has their own experience. I have all the research to back what I’m saying. And that makes a difference. So you must know who has your back, who’s who do you need to learn from? Who’s gonna be your accountability partner? Who’s gonna be your coach? Who’s gonna be the people that you pay, who have the knowledge or the training or the skills to teach you how to be on stage to teach you how to do social media, et cetera, et cetera. Or you delegate Mm-Hmm
AJV (31:02):
Yeah. I think that’s so good. And I think so much of that kind of comes back to even some of the other interconnected parts of, you know, all of your expertise and experience just around positive psychology, right? Yeah. It’s like doing big things requires you to be around people who believe you can do big things, right? Right.
CM (31:21):
Yeah. Because it gives you hope. And I have to say this too. So my, my fifth book, creating Your Best Life was the first book for the mass market that brought this brand new at the time, Meta-Analysis out that showed that all success with all goal is proceeded by being happy first. So we’re talking about all goal, professional goals, personal goals, relationship goals, religious goals, whatever the goal is. You must be flourishing first. You don’t have to be happy Dappy, but you do have to be content serene, joyful, you know, flourishing because it sets you up with all of the chemicals and all of the mindset and the outlook to actually attract other people to you. So you build relationships, you take in more information from the environment, you’re more optimistic. I mean every good thing happens when you’re flourishing. When you’re cynical and pessimistic.
CM (32:17):
It’s the absolute opposite. But the first step in any strategy session is, are you flourishing and do you know how to flourish? And when was the last time that you were a seven or an eight on a scale of nine, you know, one to 10. And what did it take to get you there? ’cause We know from positive psychology, there’s several positive interventions that work for everybody. Hmm. And we might as well know what they are. But then we all have some of our own that might be hybrids of some of those music, you know, being with the right people, gratitude practices, prayer, yoga, meditation, journal writing practice of forgiveness. I mean, there are a few things that work for everybody and we better know what ours is and boot ourselves up every day. ’cause It’s our job to do this. The Happy Fairy is not gonna fly through the window every day and make you happy.
CM (33:04):
It’s work too. This is all work. And guess what? Work is not a bad word. Work is something that’ll make you proud at the end of the day. In fact, lock and Latham found when they studied the Pope Wood Association in this, I think it was the 1970s, they found that loggers who knew how to cut down trees the minute they said, go cut down like 10 more trees than you’ve ever cut down with this logging crew that you’re familiar with. And you all have the right tools. So you know how to, there’s nothing left to learn, but go cut down more trees than you’ve ever cut down. Suddenly there was a sense of pride. Mm-Hmm.
CM (33:50):
But I could really go on a rant about this, but this is the way we all need to live. Because as we come out of the Coronavirus Pandemic, which is a black swan event, just like what preceded the Renaissance, which was also when things became more evidence-based art, science, music, education, all of it became more evidence-based. That’s where we are. And we ought to embrace evidence-based goal setting theory because we are in a renaissance right now and the train has left the station and you better have a guidebook for all the evidence-based practices that we know make a difference in success.
AJV (34:24):
Hmm. And you know, I think that one of the most significant things of just like that was like an aha in my head is this idea. It’s like in order for you to set and achieve big goals, you have to be in a good place.
CM (34:36):
Yeah.
AJV (34:37):
You know, you gotta be in a healthy, happy state of mind of Yeah. You know, otherwise, you know, you know, and it’s like, it’s like before you even begin that venture, it’s like, Hey, do I have the right would? You said the seven, what did you call ’em? Positive,
CM (34:55):
Positive interventions. Interven.
AJV (34:57):
Yeah. Yeah.
CM (34:58):
And they’re, they, they tend to work for almost everybody depending on whether you’re an introvert or an extrovert or wherever you’re located. Some might work better for some people than others. Sometimes your first interaction with something like mindfulness or meditation, whether or not you fall in love with it and it has an impact on you predicts whether or not you’re gonna kind of continue to do it. But I have zest, that’s one of my top character strengths and I’m a master swimmer and I get up at 4 35, whatever it is, and I go swim with people. I like them. We work hard. And so by six 30 the hardest part of my day is over. Yeah. We know that rigorous exercise is positive intervention. And if you start your day with that, the rest of the day is a domino effect. It’s just easier. Everything’s easier. But you’ve booted up your chemicals, you’ve booted up all of the testosterone and all of the emotions and the oxytocin, everything you need for the day to be better, be better. The exercise, I think is the best way to start the day. Maybe meditation rivals it, but I haven’t done anything better than exercise.
AJV (36:02):
Yeah. I love that this came up because I literally, this morning at like 6:45 AM I was talking to my husband ’cause my business partner and he’s traveling, so I’m just, me and the kids are home. And I got up extra early to do like my devotional some reading. And and I had, that’s one thing that’s really important to me is my morning routine. And I always get up, I do my devotional, read the Bible I do some sort of like book that I’m reading and then I go on a very fast paced, rigorous walk and it’s about five minute I wear my weighted vest and it’s just kinda like, ah. And he’s been traveling a ton the last few weeks. And so I haven’t had the opportunity to get in my walk and I him this morning, literally this morning, I’m like, I’m in a funk because I’m not getting my morning walk. Yeah. And he would, it’s so funny you said that. I literally had the same thought and I was like, you thought wow funk because I’m not. He goes, yeah, I guess he goes, because I have noticed you’ve been a little off schedule. And I’m like, yes. I put two and two together literally this morning that I am off schedule with my walks and I am in it. Yeah,
CM (37:13):
Yeah. No, it’s true. And I’m so impressed with your routine. I just got waited best myself so I know what you’re doing and that’s impressive. But you found your routine and you intuitively, I’m telling you now, the research is matching what you’re doing. You’re booting up your wellbeing probably to the highest level of the level that you were born with. We all have a set point, so we have a range. So you’re probably getting about as high as you can get or at least close to it. And that wellbeing is the rocket fuel of success with goals. Yeah. And so to start the day that way and to feel better and to just have everything pumping in the right direction is the way I think most people should consider making at least one change to their lives. Because if you wanna succeed at your goals, start here. Yeah. Start with upping your flourishing. It’s like what are the ways to do it? It’s
AJV (38:02):
The pre-work, right? You gotta do the pre-work. Yeah. To be in the right place, to do the right things, to hit big goals.
CM (38:10):
I think so. I mean, at least that’s what the research shows. I, I am completely evidence-based. I really do believe that there’s so many opinions out there and I’m trying to kill off zombie goal approaches ’cause I can’t stand anymore. These, these approaches that won’t die like smart goals. That’s not science. In fact, it’s detrimental to have smart goals. ’cause When people use r for realistic, that’s a violation of goal setting theory. You don’t set realistic goals. Those are what’s called low goals. But there’s also something called jargon, mishmash syndrome. And smart goals falls prey to that because S-M-A-R-T means a lot of different things depending on where you are. The M and the R and the A can all mean slightly different things. So smart goals is in science, law of attraction definitely isn’t science. I’m sorry. But if you want it and you write it in lipstick, uhuh, it doesn’t work.
CM (39:08):
Now maybe a vision board is gonna prime you. That’s real science. A a vision board can make you think goal directed thoughts and everything that matches that thought can be sticky and could stick to you. But you got, you know what, we have one life, one life to go pursue our dreams and to make a really positive impact on the world with what we do and how we do it. Use goal setting theory and then add my bridge methodology on top because I’ve been testing it for 20 years. The only thing I have found that includes all of the science that really makes a difference on grit and resilience and mindset and motivation every in relationships and character, strengths and happiness. The only thing I’ve ever found and work it, learn it, work it. I have so many worksheets in this book so that people can practice.
CM (39:55):
But I think this is the most important book I’ve ever read. And I’ll say one more thing as a mother, because I I know you’re a mother. My children have all lost friends to suicide. And my husband and I didn’t lose any friends to suicide growing up. And I know that there’s suicide clusters and suicide contagion and we live in an anxious, depressed world. And it’s become harder for this generation to survive difficult times because they want things to pass so quickly. Now this is a real simplification, not all suicide, it’s because of this. But I really do believe that many of the people we’re familiar with who’ve taken their own lives. They had big dreams and they were hitting stumbling blocks. One young man, we know it was online gambling and he had lost money and he was hiding it from his family. And, and there’s shame. But if you have a big dream and you want to accomplish goals, there is a way to make those goals happen without just wishing for it and hoping for it and thinking you’re gonna have some quick get rich scheme come at you from YouTube, do the work because it pays off.
AJV (41:09):
You know, I personally cannot relate more to this message because it’s a testament of hard work actually makes you feel better.
CM (41:21):
Yeah. It does.
AJV (41:23):
It like a gen like when you know that you just laid it on the line regardless if you win or lose. Yeah. It’s like, man, I just laid and I it feels good. And part of what feels good is the amount of practice and preparation and learning. And that came through the process of regardless of what happened and you started this interview with this. And then I know we’ll wrap it up, but I thought it was so interesting because I was right before this like self-esteem generation and we didn’t get trophies for showing up. Like my, my dad’s an entrepreneur of alum, a lumber company and it was just very, to earn it right. It was like his dad was a genuine lumberjack and it was just a very hard work work culture and I’m so grateful for it. Yeah. But my kids are in this soccer league and this is so funny that this is coming up. So at this last Saturday, it was their final game of the season. Right. And he’s like, I have five and seven year olds, they’re littles. But at the end it’s all up to the coach’s discretion of like, does he hand out a little trophy or a little rib or anything? And on my five-year-Old’s team, the coach didn’t hand anything out.
CM (42:37):
Oh wow. And my Oh wow.
AJV (42:40):
My five-year-old said, mom, where’s our trophy? And I, he, he was looking at the other ones and I looked at my husband, I was like, they didn’t hand out it like a ribbon or a trophy. And we literally looked at each other and they’re like, well, did he win anything
CM (42:55):
AJV (42:57):
It was like, we literally had, and my husband was like, you think we should like buy one off of Amazon? And I was like,
CM (43:01):
No. Oh my gosh, no.
AJV (43:03):
And it was like, we literally had this debate and we both had to like gut check ourselves of going, yeah, what does he need a Ruben for? What’s he gonna do with the trophy? And it, but it was like this like instinctual thing of like, what? And then we both like came to our senses and we’re like, no, he didn’t win anything. He played a five-year-old soccer league. No, we’re not, he usually
CM (43:23):
Has a mercy rule. They stop keeping score ’cause they don’t wanna hurt anyone’s feelings.
AJV (43:28):
That’s not the case with our kids. Our kids make us the scorekeeper. So we have to tell every ah,
CM (43:34):
Interesting
AJV (43:35):
12 to one
CM (43:37):
Yeah.
AJV (43:37):
They, it was a really interesting thing. And we told our 5-year-old, I was like, Hey bud you know, they don’t technically keep score here. There is no champion. There is like no, like championship. And he goes, but we won. And I said, we did technically win, but
CM (43:55):
Conversation
AJV (43:56):
To have with him. Interesting. And after at the three minute, like, well, you know, technically da da da da. And he was like, okay. And off he goes,
CM (44:05):
Ah. And it was like this, that’s a great story.
AJV (44:08):
And it was an aha moment to me and my, I’m like, the only reason it even came up to him is he saw it and as soon as he realized, oh, like there’s a process to how you win these. He has now asked us since Saturday, what do I have to do to win one of those trophies?
CM (44:24):
No way.
AJV (44:26):
Multiple times. And so now he’s got a goal. He wants a soccer trophy and we’re, we’re, we’re practicing out in our backyard. And, but it was an amazing revelation of if we had just given it to him, yeah. It would’ve destroyed this inner competition, this inner drive
CM (44:45):
Incentive incentive to work or something. And now
AJV (44:48):
What do I have to do to win one? I’m like, well, you have to be in a league that keeps score and you have to like try out. And he’s like, now he’s like, okay, okay, okay.
CM (44:57):
Wow. You know, it’s interesting because the research finds that even children who are given an award or a reward that they haven’t earned, they know and they devalue what they’re being given to. They know there was nothing that really went into it. And that’s what’s so fascinating to me. I have a a, a story very similar to yours where we joined a swim league and the team had gotten rid of the record board even though three Olympians had swam there in the seventies, eighties and nineties, and had gone on to win world championships in the Olympics. Seventh in the Olympics. One of them too. And we, we were like, what did you do with the record board? Well, we hit it. We hit it because the kids would be so discouraged if they saw how fast they’d been before. Well I, they made me the, a rep and I had the biggest record board ever made for summer swim teams made in Austin, Texas.
CM (45:52):
And it was sent to us in Bethesda, Maryland. And the, we invited these three very scary men back and we had this big party Breakfast of champions. And that record board is still the talk of the entire swim league, which has produced lots of Olympians. First thing kids do when they arrive at a swim meet is they go stand in front of the record board. ’cause Like your son, people long to know what does it take to be elite? Mm-Hmm
AJV (46:38):
I mean, genuinely like just even having this conversation at the same timing of this like little soccer league wrap up has been also I think a really big testament. Not just to us who have teams and employees or just even us as an individual setting goals, but I would say specifically as a parent, it’s like, don’t rob your kids of hard work.
CM (47:01):
Yeah. No, it’s true
AJV (47:03):
Of hard work. Don’t try to make it easy for them. It’s like there is power and the grit and the perseverance and the resilience. How else do we learn that stuff,
CM (47:13):
Right? Well, you don’t, you can’t, you can’t buy it. You can’t chant it. It only comes this way. And the other thing is we have to show them that we are resilient when bad things happen to us, when we don’t get the job we want, when we’re fired, when you don’t get a book contract, when you get bad speech reviews, whatever it is, kids need to see that you too are resilient and that there’s mom and dad and they survived it. My gosh. You know, I bet I could survive not making the travel soccer team or whatever, not being the lead in the play or not getting an A on everything. That’s our responsibility as parents, even though you might as well take a knife and just plunge it right into my heart. Because watching your children not succeed or get what they want is heartbreaking. But to this day, my three adult children, the absolute best things that ever happened to them in life, in life that had the best outcomes were the worst things that happened to them. And you know what they survived and boy, what a lesson. Not even just to us, to them it made them all better. Men and women.
AJV (48:16):
Yeah. This is so good. Thank you so much for coming on. This has been so insightful and just chock full of day backed reasoning on importance of setting big goals. Big goals comes out November 27th. Yeah. Grab a copy at anywhere where you buy books check it out. But then also if you go to big goals book.com, if you pre-order the book, then you also receive a 20 a page PDF workbook to help you through this process. Yeah. So go to big goals book.com, get your copy. Comes out officially November 27th. Caroline, thank you so much for being on the show today. And y’all, thank you. You guys wanna connect with Caroline? Where should they follow you online? What’s the best platform?
CM (49:05):
I, I think LinkedIn. Linkedin, Caroline Adams, Miller. But I’m on Instagram and Facebook, you know, I have a social media team that keeps me active, but you know, and then my website, caroline miller.com.
AJV (49:18):
So I would just encourage go to your platform of choice. Go to caroline miller.com, LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram pick your platform of choice, but grab a copy of big goals to help you have a life changing year next year. Thank you for being on the show. Everyone else, stay tuned for the recap episode and we will see you next time on the Influential Personal Brand.
CM (49:40):
Thank you.
Ep 547: What Most People Get Wrong About Personal Branding | Jamie Hess Episode Recap
RV (00:06):
Welcome to the Influential Personal Brand podcast. This is the place where we help mission-driven messengers, just like you learn how to build and monetize your personal brand. My name is Rory Vaden and I’m the co-founder of Brand Builders Group, a hall of fame speaker, and New York Times bestselling author. And this show is to help experts learn how to become more wealthy and well known. I know you’re gonna love it. Thanks for being here. Let’s get started. There’s
RV (00:34):
A great irony and personal branding, great irony. And the great irony is that your personal brand is not about you. It’s not about you. And the reason some of you are reluctant to go all in on this and is because you go, ah, I, I don’t wanna be vain. I don’t wanna be braggadocio. I, I don’t wanna try to look like I’m trying to be famous. That’s when you’re thinking about yourself. But you don’t do that when you’re thinking about helping other people. When you think about helping other people, you go, who’s out there that has something to learn from me? Who can I teach? Who can I add value to? See, a great personal brand is not self-centered. A great personal brand is service centered. It’s not about how does my outfit look? What do I look like on camera? Is the audio perfect?
RV (01:21):
Sure, we wanna work on those things. But is that what it’s about? No freaking way. Not even close. You don’t break through the wall because everything is perfect and pristine. You break through the wall ’cause people trust you. They trust you because they can see that you care about them. They know that you care about them. ’cause you’re doing things to help them. You’re adding value to their life without asking for anything in return. That’s the power of the digitization of your reputation. That’s the power that’s available today more than any other time in human history. It’s easier. We all have access to it. The only thing holding you back is the crap in your own head. And that’s the part we gotta get past. Because you know, and, and I wanna tell you like don’t focus on monetizing everything. Don’t be so focused on like, I gotta make a bazillion dollars for this ’cause I, money is good. We like money, but we say we serve mission driven messengers. We, we care about money, but money is subservient to the mission. We care about revenue, but revenue is subservient to reputation. We care about income, but income is subservient to impact. Because when you are selling, there are wins and losses. When you’re selling, there are wins and losses. But when you are serving, there are only wins.
RV (02:36):
When you are serving, there are only wins. You cannot lose. You cannot lose. You only win. You only get value. You only get goodness. You only get referrals. You only get trust. And I’m telling you, sooner or later you will get money too. You can throw yourself fully into serving other people. Who should you serve? The person you once were. ’cause you’re most powerfully positioned to serve the person you once were. So the challenge is, or the question is, what challenge have you conquered? What obstacle have you overcome? What setback have you survived? What tragedy have you triumphed over? What problem have you solved? What path have you been down that you can help other people? That is where you win. It’s not followers, it’s not money, it’s not any of the va. How many books do you sell? What promotion you get, what your title is, it’s the service of the other people.
RV (03:28):
And you can do that for free. You can do that right now. Nobody can stop you. And what’s amazing is something new, shows up your highest self. The payoff is your highest self. Your highest self is to be your highest value to others. And that’s what it takes to break through the wall. It takes passion, it takes concern, it takes care. It takes confidence. It takes somebody going. What breaks your heart? What you off? What makes you sad? What makes you cry? What is the thing you look out in the world and you go, I’m not okay with that. I’m not comfortable with that. I won’t allow that to happen on my watch. ’cause I can do something about that. And I believe that that is God’s divine design of your humanity. That you, the things that break your heart, break your heart for a reason. Because you were created to do something about that problem. You were created to serve that person. The heartbreak that you experienced was the very vehicle preparing you to do the purpose of your life, to be the person that you were created to be. And the only reason you wouldn’t listen to that is because of fear. And there, and there’s only fear one time when you’re thinking about yourself. Fear is such a self-centered concept. But there is no fear when the mission to serve becomes clear. There is no fear.
RV (04:55):
So find the person, find the problem, create the focus. Go out and serve the person you once were and become every single thing you were meant to be.
Ep 546: Secrets of Securing Brand Deals with Jamie Hess
RV (00:06):
Welcome to the Influential Personal Brand podcast. This is the place where we help mission-driven messengers, just like you learn how to build and monetize your personal brand. My name is Rory Vaden and I’m the co-founder of Brand Builders Group, a hall of fame speaker, and New York Times bestselling author. And this show is to help experts learn how to become more wealthy and well known. I know you’re gonna love it. Thanks for being here. Let’s get started. Whoever says you don’t make real friends on social media is lying to you because I do occasionally, not that often, but occasionally I do make real friends online, and that is the case with the woman You’re about to meet Jamie Hess. Technically we met on Instagram and it’s because we have lots of mutual friends already, right? And as soon as I came across her profile, or she came across mine, I’m not exactly sure.
RV (00:58):
We just started messaging and I was like, oh man, she’s so cool. She has such a fascinating background and such an important specific skillset that we’re gonna talk about today. So, first of all, so Jamie is a wellness entrepreneur. She’s a mindset coach and a media personality. And she’s the host of a podcast called The Gratitude Ology Podcast which has been featured on the Today Show. She created a, a, a very popular Instagram account, which we’ll talk about in her story, and that led her to really becoming like a content creator. So before that, she worked in media pr she was a marketing expert, did a lot of brand stuff, which is, you know, obviously what we have in common. But she was working in more like the corporate environment with McDonald’s and GM and LinkedIn and Barry’s Bootcamp and, and the W Hotel, which is one of my favorite hotel chains.
RV (01:49):
And then as she moved into becoming a content creator, she, one of the things that she talks about is securing brand deals and high paying like ambassador deals, which is part of what we’re gonna talk about. So she’s also the face of Zuta active wear on QVC. She has been on shows like Good Morning America, the View and Beyond. She’s also a TEDx speaker and just really understands this space. And so I was like, this is a no-brainer. Let’s just meet in person, so to speak on the podcast. So Jamie, welcome to the show you
JH (02:24):
So much for having me.
RV (02:25):
Yeah. So so I wanna talk brand deals. You know, our audience is Mission-driven messengers, and, and specifically we tend to serve like experts and entrepreneurs. So most of our audience actually makes money selling services, either like professional services of some kind or it might be like coaching and consulting and speaking if it’s, if it’s not like, you know, if it’s not like accounting or doctors and that kind of thing. But more and more we have a growing audience of people who are kind of either lifestyle influencers or micro influencers or just people who are growing their, their profiles in general. And now all of a sudden they might be getting approached by brands or they’re thinking about working with brands. So I wanna get into that, but before we get into all that, tell me a little bit, a high level of your story of how you got into teaching what you teach now.
JH (03:25):
Thank you so much for that great setup. And by the way, I just have to say like, incidentally, my people, the people I like to work with to teach brand deals, they’re not wannabe influencers, right? Because I hate that. Like, I never wanted to teach a course on how to be an influencer. It is your people, Rory. It is people who are already entrepreneurs, keynote speakers, podcasters, authors, lifestyle entrepreneurs, just people that have A-P-O-V-A thing or two to say an expertise and some platform to amplify that on. But they don’t realize that they’re leaving money on the table because brands might like to be a part of that message. So I’m actually teaching your pe like these, this is my audience, your people who don’t even realize that brand deals could be a thing. ’cause They’re like, I don’t wanna be an influencer. Throw that word out the window, right?
JH (04:11):
Brand deals are for everyone. So I’ll just say, I’ll, I’ll start with that. So for 17 years I was actually a PR executive, and I worked through every different vertical of public relations. So I started with movies and music and hospitality. I was a big nightlife girl, big nightclub girl actually now sober for over 20 years. So that’s a big part of my story. But the nightlife PR world chewed me up and spit me out. But I learned a lot through that process. And then I went into like the bigger corporate stuff. So I was the SVP of an agency called The Narrative Group, and I represented brands, like you mentioned McDonald’s and, and General Motors. I actually got engaged on a treadmill at Barry’s Bootcamp Fund
RV (04:50):
JH (04:51):
But what ended up happening, Rory, was because of that engagement. So my mom, who is TV journalist, Joan London, happened to be at the engagement as, as a mom would, right? And because she was there, it ended up on page six and in all the gossip columns. And it gave my husband and I this kind of random launch as this public facing fit couple. Interesting. Yeah. It launched our public persona. Like we were already fitness geeks. We just love wellness. It’s our thing, you know, we love to work out, but we kind of played around with sharing our fitness journey on social media, but not really seriously. But after this moment where all of a sudden there was a little bit of a spark, and we had some new followers we’re like, Hey, should we go with this? Like, let’s have some fun. So we started this Instagram account called NYC FitFam Uhhuh.
JH (05:39):
And at that time, hashtag FitFam was like a moniker. It meant like getting your fit family together, your IRL buddies at the gym. And so we started NYC FitFam and we started doing all this content. We also have a may December romance, you know, we’re 20 years apart. So all of this content around me being a, you know, kind of young mom and him being, you know, at his age, like how does he stay fit? How does he stay energetic for our kids? And it sparked what ended up happening from there was I started doing on the side deals with brands. You know, as one does, as their Instagram starts growing, I started representing like supplements and energy drinks because I was a fitness influencer. Sure. And eventually, after about 18 months of doing both, meaning my full-time job and my side hustle, my side hustle, started out pacing my full hustle Uhhuh. And I was like, you know what? I love being a publicist. I didn’t leave my my agency job because I didn’t like it. I just saw how much more was possible for me as an entrepreneur. And I gave notice and it was the best thing i I ever did. Never looked back.
RV (06:43):
Wow. So your first brand deals as a creator, they just kind of, how did they show up? Like what? And, and, and tell me about like, how long had you been creating content and how many followers did you have? Which platforms? And then how did the first kind of brand deals show up in your, in your universe?
JH (07:06):
So I’m an Instagram creator that is my platform. And I’ll give you this. So I had a little bit, I’m a little bit uniquely positioned because I was the one hiring the influencers for McDonald’s and General Motors. And so I was writing the influencer briefs and I was lucky enough to be on the forefront of like the data and the white papers on how consumer behavior is being influenced and what are the new trends in influencer marketing and how does this all work and does it really work? And I was able to say categorically, yes it does, and this is the future. And also this is the way it works best. Meaning like, as a publicist, I know what I would wanna be pitched from a, from an influencer, from a creator. I know how my creators work best with me. Meaning they, they understand there’s a consumer at the end of the rainbow.
JH (07:52):
They understand about like showing up and working in the spirit of partnership. They understand about showing up and bringing best in class work and, and meeting deadlines and being an amazing partner and creative and helping me do my job. And so I wanted to show up as a creator like that. Now, in the beginning, I didn’t have that much leeway in the beginning. I did what everyone does. I hopped on a few of the influencer platforms and I signed up and I said, Hey, what could I do? And I did my first brand deal for $200. Nice. It was with that, that sugar-free soda brand called Zia. And I took a picture of me,
RV (08:24):
Oh yeah, I drink Zevia, we
JH (08:25):
Delicious. I love Zia. And it was, I, I took a picture of me and my family, me and my 3-year-old son, and my husband having a, a picnic in Central Park and got paid $200 for posting it on my Instagram. And I was like, that was very cool. Like that, that rocked. And I was like, you know, if find me $200, maybe you could $300. And I just started inching it up. Here’s the thing. At that point, I only had a couple thousand followers. Fine. What I did have was that best in class spirit, meaning I brought to every campaign that I did the same energy and preparation that I would bring to a seven figure campaign with McDonald’s. Like I just insisted on showing up as if I was a creator with a million followers. And what happened was, a lot of my people who I coach now to get brand deals, because they’re your audience, right?
JH (09:20):
They’re people that already have a professional acumen. They’re, they’re important. They’re, they’re, they’re people who have created credibility and they’re worried oftentimes that doing brand deals is gonna water them down. Oh, I don’t wanna look like I’m selling out. I don’t want, that’s embarrassing. I don’t wanna do brand deals because that’s like, you know, that’s what like cheesy influencers do. I promise you my social media grew as a byproduct of doing brand deals because I showed up to them with integrity and because people saw brands taking a chance on me saying, I believe in this girl. This girl can amplify my product. She has credibility, she has integrity. People started to then listen to me and follow me. And so I fully believe because my account grew rather quickly, I started doing brand deals around the 5,000 follower count
RV (10:10):
Before
JH (10:21):
A hundred percent. It was great. And you have to start somewhere. So I got to practice, and before you knew it, we were, you know, my husband and I were holding Mylar balloons with a three zero K, you know, to celebrate 30,000 followers as one did in the, in the, you know, that time period. Everyone had Mylar balloons. But we were celebrating those milestones. It was like 30,000, then it was 50,000. And then I started putting together little groups of brands, Hey, we’re about to hit a 50,000 follower marker. Hey, these five brands, do you wanna get together and help us celebrate? And I started putting together little programs and growing my scope and scale of how I worked with brands. And so as I started learning how to do this on a bigger scale, this is now what I teach today, how do you think bigger with regards to brand deals? Because I’ll tell you this, that the jump to the end of the story is when I left my corporate job, which is a multi six figure a year paycheck with health insurance, a lot of people, including my own mom, said, I was completely crazy by the way, I was pregnant and left a job with health insurance. And I said, with all due respect, I, I think you’re wrong. And within 18 months, I had five x my, my income.
RV (11:22):
So how much can someone expect to make from a brand deal? Like, so if you start out getting a couple hundred dollars maybe for a post, if you really pursue this, and you go, okay, I’m gonna make it a focus, I’m gonna make myself attractive to brands, I’m gonna become good at creating creative that serves an audience and also advocates for a brand. Like how much does one make for, you know, doing this kind of like per post or per company or per engagement? Like, I mean, I’m, I know it’s probably all over the place, but like, give us an idea.
JH (12:03):
I’m gonna do that. So I’ll take you through, for instance, the lifecycle of some of my work with a brand, because keep in mind and what I teach, so I, I teach a course called Brand Ninja because I believe that like, you know, to have like ninja status of working with brands, you should be able to think social media plus, plus. What I mean by that is, I don’t live and die by a transactional post. I don’t like to say I charge this much for one Instagram post and then we call it a day and we go our separate ways. I like to think, how can I really get under the hood with a brand because I geek out on my brands Rory like that. And this is also why I think people, why I come with integrity and authenticity, right? Like influencers have a bad name because a lot of influencers do cheap brand deals, meaning they hold up a toothpaste that they never used and they say, buy this toothpaste.
JH (12:49):
And they take the check and they walk away. And that’s a cheap, silly brand deal. But when you really care and you really sign on to work with a brand because you, you’ve tried the brand, you think it’s great and you wanna grow with the brand and help them, I’ll, I’ll give you an example of what’s possible. So one brand for instance, I had reached out to them ’cause I had a genuine problem. People love this story ’cause it’s, this is also an example of where I’m willing to be vulnerable and where I’m willing to upcharge for my vulnerability. I believe that after having children running a half marathon should be called peeing your pants for 13.1 miles. Uhhuh,
JH (13:32):
And it’s super common, and I’m super not embarrassed by it because I had two beautiful babies that I brought into this world. And like it happens, get over it, right? But that’s, but for most women, by the way, this is like devastatingly embarrassing and it’s something that you usually don’t even talk to their doctors about. So I said, you know what, there’s gotta be a brand or two out there that could address this, and I wonder if they could help me. And then I in turn could help them by amplifying, maybe they could help me fix the problem and then I could share my experience. So I, I connected with this brand and I said to them, I have this issue. I’d love to try your product. Maybe we could do some content together. It started off where they engaged me to do one or two Instagram posts.
JH (14:13):
At that time, I think I was charging $5,000 a post. My rates are higher now. They started around 7,500 a post given my, you know, I have around 220,000 followers. So that’s pretty standard. And I did a couple Instagram posts for them and then we, I said, okay, great. That went really well. My audience, I’ve never gotten more dms than those posts. ’cause People were saying, oh my God, does this really work? I’ve never even talked to my doctor about this. I’ve been so embarrassed. Please help. And then I went back to them, I showed them the screen grabs of the dms. I said, here, this is what I’m hearing from my audience. Let’s talk about what else we can do together. I started doing some more stuff. I hosted an event for them in New York City with other influencers. I wrote a couple blog posts for them.
JH (14:54):
Then I, I was having my second baby. I said, what if you guys kind of signed on as the hero of my getting back in shape after baby story, right? Like, I wanna run a half marathon, the Hamptons half, it’s about six months after I have the second baby. What if you guys helped me get back out on the pavement? So I, I enga they engaged me, I pitched something and they bought into it for a longer cadence of a storytelling frame, right? So I had multiple pulse points deliverables. So that was maybe going from like a $5,000 marker to like a $25,000 marker. Where now we’re doing a six month deal the following year they said, we now need somebody on a larger scale to do 360 media for us. We’re gonna do some integrations on bigger television shows. We wanna get this word out to a bigger audience.
JH (15:41):
That turned into a multi six figure a year deal because I was now their on air ambassador. So my point in telling you that story is by watering the flowers of that relationship, by first of all, reaching out to a brand that authentically meant something to me that I wanted to share with my audience. How they were genuinely helping me solve a problem. And then by growing within the context of that relationship, I grew up from a $5,000 opportunity to what became a multi-six figure a year opportunity for two years in a row. I was their ambassador for two years and made about half a million dollars with them.
RV (16:14):
Yeah. And that’s, so I, I love that story. It’s such a great story. And I, I think, like I’ve had friends who also sell like sponsorships, which is kind of closely related. And, and the, one of the things that I learned from them was, it’s like you package things together. Just like you’re saying, it’s like, I’ll, it’s not just an Instagram post. It’s, I’ll write blogs. I’ll show up at your event, I’ll be your spokesperson. I’ll appear on a media interview, I’ll send an email blast to, you know, to my list. I’ll, I’ll include, I’ll include your logo on my website. Like, there’s all these other things that you kind of bundle together long term, which have more value to the brand, and then that creates more value, more value for you, which I love. And then I think one of, probably the other biggest thing I’ve learned from people in kind of this space, like you who teach this is exactly what you said is, is go look around at the products that you actually use every day and that you really believe in that you would maybe tell people about for free and actually contact those brands and tell them, like, would you, would you agree with that strategy?
JH (17:22):
A hundred percent. It’s the first thing I tell people to do. People really tend to overcomplicate it. So, you know, in my course, I break it down, I have like an eight week curriculum and one week is literally, and it’s this simple, I’m gonna give, I’m gonna give this away right now. This is one whole week of my course. I’m gonna give it to you guys right now. And of course I take an hour to really go through it. But I’m gonna, here’s the TLDR as the kids say, right? Okay, open up a spreadsheet, make three you know, three sheets, three, you know, you’re gonna make three buckets. One, this is three categories of products that you might use. So for me, maybe it’s beverages, right? And that could be broad too. It could be waters non-alcoholic cocktail brands, kombucha, functional beverages.
JH (18:04):
Or it could just be things I like to drink. Another thing could be fitness or energy drinks, right? Supplements. And maybe the third one is biohacking or sleep wellness. Something else that interests you. Right now, write down seven to 10 brands that you use in each of those categories. Mm-Hmm,
RV (19:03):
And you just go. And I think, thank you, Jamie, because that’s super powerful. This is very similar to how we teach keynote speakers, right? So people, people see me speak on these huge, you know, last week I was in front of 5,000 people at Keller Williams and they’re like, oh, that’s amazing how you do that. I’m like, I researched the company, created a spreadsheet, we reached out to them, we sent them emails, we bugged them, we built a relationship. And five years later they’re like, we should have you at our event. Like it’s, it, it, it’s, it is this, but there’s this intimidation factor, I think, right? Specifically. It’s funny ’cause it’s like, you know, like I’ve got my like this is one. So, so my, my son while we were talking, which is amazing made me a cava smoothie. I dunno if you’ve ever heard of the brand Cava, but like, I drink cava like almost every day, like, literally almost every day.
RV (19:54):
But I think a lot of people go, well, one, it’s intimidating to approach a brand of like they’re, they’re, they’re a big brand, right? You know, like McDonald’s, like they’re not gonna talk to me, they’re talking to LeBron James. Like, and, and then that’s the other thing. So one is it’s intimidating to go approach a brand. And then the other one is I think the like imposter syndrome of like, I’ve got 5,000 followers, or I’ve got y you know, 7,000 followers. Like, they don’t care about me. So like, talk to us about, I know one of the things in your bio is like a mental, like you, you talk about like being a mindset coach. ’cause I, this has to be a huge part of it is just like getting past the emotional barrier of like those two things.
JH (20:39):
Well, the reality is I’m 90% of mindset coach because the rest of this, I, I know people don’t wanna hear it, but it actually ain’t rocket science. Okay? Like it is, it is elbow grease. It’s rolling up your sleeves and writing some emails and sending some emails and figuring out what your like core competencies are. What are the deliverables I’d be willing to do? Maybe it’s an Instagram post. Maybe you’re, you know, an expert. You can lend, you know, your whatever, whatever is your thing. You write it up and you send some emails. But it is a mindset shift. Mm-Hmm. Now what I want people to understand are two things. That’s good. Number one, people need to understand this. It’s all about, this is a sales conversation, but it’s about showing up in the spirit of service. It’s not about like having a pick me attitude.
JH (21:21):
Oh, I don’t, I don’t know if they’d want me. I don’t know why would they want me, they could hire anybody. What about what you have to bring to the table? And like, they either want it or they don’t. And by the way, if they don’t, no hard feelings, it might just not align with their marketing priorities. It’s like not that deep and not that personal, right? Like these, this, at the end of the day, it’s business, but you have something to offer. You have a special skillset. I don’t care if your audience is 5,000, there’s 5,000 active people on the other side of that screen waiting to hear what you’re waiting to pick up what you’re putting down. So that’s number one. Number two, in every round, almost every round of my brand Ninja coaching cohort I have influencer marketing experts that take my course almost every time because they just wanna hear from the other side.
JH (22:05):
They wanna like, they wanna get it and they wanna hear how I pitch ’cause they know it’s a little bit different or unique or they’ve worked with me before and they’re like, you do it different. I’d love to like hear your special sauce. So we could better work with influencers from our side of things. Every single time somebody stops me at some point in my talk and says, Hey Jamie, can I just jump in and say to the group, what we are seeing in, in our businesses is we are spending so much more money in the mid-tier and micro influencer categories every single time. Hmm. Someone makes sure to mention it because they want people to not think, oh, I don’t wanna have a million followers. I’m not worthy. And what I can tell you this is true as well, having represented brands like McDonald’s, this is a good example.
JH (22:49):
So say that we’re McDonald’s, right? And we hire like a big celebrity mom to, to represent then something new coming out with a Happy meal. By and large, the comments underneath her post. So we’ve engaged her to do a post and she posted about the thing and the Happy Meal and the kids, there’s gonna be so many trolls and haters out there saying, you feed your kids McDonald’s and judging her, and then all suddenly it gets into like a vaccine conversation. All of this stuff that you’re like, I did not sign up for that. I was just trying to show people that we have minions and a happy meal. You know, like, mm-Hmm,
JH (23:31):
Nothing or worse yet can have a negative impact with a mid-tier or even micro influencer. You have a lot more creative control. These are people who are willing to work with you more, who are willing to really massage the nuances of the messaging. And so brands increasingly are really wanting to work with mid-tier and micro influencers and people who just have a more engaged audience who aren’t looking at something like that as, ugh, it’s a commercial moving on. They’re really listening because that’s that elusive third party endorsement. So don’t underestimate the power you have as a smaller influencer.
RV (24:05):
Yeah, that’s a good point about like, you know, like I follow the Rock and I probably see like one out of every 25 posts and I’ll kind of quickly glance at something and usually it’s like, it’s like, oh, here’s an, he’s doing an ad for something and I move on. There’s a few creators that are like in my space where it’s like I go back and watch every video that they have posted because I’ve learned from them. And it’s like, if one of them were to say something, it’s like I would see it and I would pay attention to it. Like that, that, that makes sense to me. The audiences are super engaged. And it’s not, it’s also not such a mass audience of a bunch of people from all different demographics. It’s like the, the, to me, the niche influencer makes so much sense because it’s like this creator has a small audience, but a small audience of our perfect customer. So then you, you when you say, just to give a a sense, what, what would you classify as mid-tier and micro influencer?
JH (25:13):
The older, like benchmark is 10 thou, like, once you’re kind of over 10,000, you’re like, you know, a micro influencer. And that used to have a little more to do with like, the functionality of the app. Instagram specifically, you would get the swipe up feature, which is now a, a a sticker. Everything changes so quickly with the algorithm and the app that I would say, when you’re around the 10,000 mark you, your, technically you have your, you get your influencer, you know, badge, Uhhuh
JH (26:07):
That is one of my topics I speak about on stage. So this directly kind of ladders into what I speak about on stage. So I created this podcast to support that message. Now, the podcast I wanted to do in person everything. I, I had done a podcast for four years. Virtually I was bored. I wanted to go talk to people. ’cause It’s like I do a lot of celebrities and it’s like, what’s the point if you’re not gonna go sit with them? And I, I wanted to fly out and, and sit with them, which is expensive. So I took a look at my budget for my first quarter of, of guests I was gonna be interviewing and it was gonna cost me about $40,000. And I was like, okay, I gotta raise $50,000 working capital to get this thing off the ground. So I turned around and I sold it to five brands for $10,000 each.
JH (26:44):
And I put together a little package to get these brands, essentially product placement, to get this show on the road. So I shared that in this room full of keynote speakers. And everybody’s like, I’m sorry, you did what? Like, what do you mean you just turned around and sold $50,000 of brand sponsorships? Like, that’s crazy. Like, how would you do that? Because keep in mind, Rory, like I had no, there was no, oh, well what’s your number of downloads? The podcast didn’t exist yet. Mm-Hmm.
JH (27:29):
Let me tell you how I’m gonna do it. And I brought these five brands on the road with me and I, I brought them onto set with each of these interviews, and I did a moment of discovery and education with each of my guests and we videoed it. And I have a whole framework of how I do that. But I realized that all of these people sitting in this room with me, who they might not have a huge following, some of them do, but some of them have 5, 6, 7, 8,000 followers. But they’re ballers, right? They’re experts, they’re leaders in creativity and innovation. They have books. But, but they’re bootstrapping their own podcasts and their own book tours. And I said, why? I guarantee you there is a brand that gets it there. Not every brand, right? Because you may, maybe you have five, six, 7,000 followers, maybe not McDonald’s, but there is a brand out there that will understand the value that you bring and they wanna be a part of your journey. And I said, I can teach these people how to do this. And that’s literally why I created Brand Ninja for people that were in that pocket. So either they have a smaller following, but they’ve got something going on that’s marketable or have a big bigger following and they just haven’t figured out how to monetize it yet.
RV (28:37):
Hmm. Yeah. And so you, you basically, you’re just approaching these people and it’s just a sales conversation. Who, who’s the, what are the job titles of the people you’re trying to get to? Would you say
JH (28:47):
Such a great question. I literally have a whole couple slides on that in like my curriculum, because it’s such a great question. People are like, who would I even be talking to? So it can be people on a marketing team. They could have titles like at a smaller company, you know, CMO, marketing director, marketing manager, and obviously at a bigger company you’re gonna be talking to somebody with the title social media director, digital director, influencer marketing lead talent manager. I mean, they, you know, and I show, I show a bunch of different LinkedIn headers, which gives some of the examples, like, you might not think it, but like for instance, Anheuser Busch, their head of influencer relations, his title is I think it’s like Manager comma Talent, which you might be like, is he an hr? So it’s not always exactly evident right off the bat.
JH (29:34):
However, there’s other kind of nuances and keywords you can look for. At the end of the day, there are a lot of different ways to find these people. And I, I share a lot of them in my, in my curriculum, but I’m gonna give you that, that little like, you know like life hack, once again, if you are trying to pitch yourself on a platform like Instagram, like that’s where you want to do your content from, there is no harm in sliding into their dms from that platform because it gives them one less button they have to click, right? All they have to do is click on your profile and say, okay, I can look at this person. In this day and age. That’s what it’s there for, right? So it’s really actually very interesting how much you can get done on the native platform that you’re trying to pitch in.
RV (30:15):
Yeah. I love that. Well this has been awesome, Jamie. So, so helpful. And I think, you know, inspiring hopefully for people to see that just, it’s a process. It’s, it’s a, it’s a sale, it’s a pitch. There’s a value proposition for you and them, and you’re exchanging value together. And there’s always business to be just done in that way if you’re just confident and creative and and service centered about it. I, I think that’s super, super duper powerful. So obviously you’ve mentioned your Instagram. Is that the best place for people to go follow you and connect with you?
JH (30:47):
People can follow me at Jamie Hess, J-A-M-I-E-H-E-S-S. They can also, I was just making sure I had my thing right. They can also text the word ninja to 3 3 7, 7 7. And that’ll get you some information about my course, which is also [email protected]. And then for my keynote speaking and all things otherwise I am meet jamie hess.com.
RV (31:08):
Awesome. well thank you for the time. Thank you for the tips. Really, really powerful and inspiring. So y’all go check out Jamie, follow her, say hello. Let her know that you heard heard her on our podcast. And Jamie, wish you all the best.
JH (31:24):
Thank you, my friend.
Ep 545: When Enough Is Enough | Budget Besties Episode Recap
AJV (00:06):
Welcome to the Influential Personal Brand podcast. This is the place where we help Mission-driven messengers, just like you learn how to build and monetize your personal brand. My name is Rory Vaden and I’m the co-founder of Brand Builders Group, a hall of fame speaker, and New York Times bestselling author. And this show is to help experts learn how to become more wealthy and well-known. I know you’re gonna love it. Thanks for being here. Let’s get started.
AJV (00:34):
How to know when enough is enough. I’m specifically talking about money here, and as we round out 2024, which is when I’m recording this and I look ahead to 2025, which I imagine many of you are, I think that’s a question that’s really timely. How much is enough? And when you think about it in the terms of money, I would encourage you to think about money not in terms of how much you make or, or how much you wanna keep, but it’s more of what do you wanna do with the money that you have? And I’m in a lot of different circles with friends, family, different business owners, entrepreneurs even just conversations in the Brand Builders Group community, and even just conversations with the team at Brand Builders Group. And I, I have never met anyone ever who has said, no, I, I don’t want to make more money.
AJV (01:35):
Now, they may admit I don’t need more money, but I have never actually heard anyone say, no, I don’t want to make more money. But I have also heard the following statements or sentiments simultaneously, which is, why do I always feel the need to make more? How do I know when enough is enough? And what ultimately is this magical number that would make me feel financially secure? And I think that’s a really good question for all of us. And one of the things that I have been spending a lot of time thinking about is, you know, I don’t think anyone is asking the question, how much am I spending? As much as we are asking how much do I want to be making, or how much do I think I need to be making? But spending and making
AJV (02:40):
I know that there are many people in poverty who are going, no, I need to make more money. This is not about spending. I cannot afford groceries. I am not speaking to that group of people in this particular conversation. That is a different need. That is a different conversation. But for the rest of everyone who specifically lives in the United States, right, you are already making more than the majority of the entire world just by living here. And the average salary in the United States is $48,000. If you’re making more than that, then you are already making more than the average American. If you make over six figures you are already making more than almost 50% of the average American. And yet we have this question of enoughness and making more. And have we actually ever stopped and asked ourselves, how much am I spending?
AJV (03:38):
And is that, is that an area I need more control over versus always the desire of more? And I don’t think wanting more is bad. Don’t hear what I’m not saying. There are many things that I think having more of is awesome. I think making more money is a good and powerful thing. I want to make more money. But I don’t want to ever be in a position that making more creates less time for my family. I never want making more money to pull me away from the work that God has me to do. I never want to be making more money so that I have no peace and no rest because I’ve said yes to every single thing in an effort of making more. And yet, I have no time for my husband, my children, myself, the the Lord. Friends, I think there’s, there’s exchanges here that we make.
AJV (04:31):
And sometimes I think the question should be is, am I spending too much? Versus am I, how do I make more? And this is not a conversation for everyone. It’s for a very specific person and a very specific season who is asking themselves, when is enough enough? And perhaps what you have is already enough, and it’s not about making more. But it could be about spending less. And it may not even be about spending less. It may just be more about spiritual contentness. It’s being content and at peace with what you have and what you’re making. Because my husband often says this peace is the new profit. More money isn’t going to necessarily fix the problems that we have. More money often creates more problems, right? Biggie small said it best. More money, more problems. And often the more that we make, the more that we just naturally spend there’s a natural lifestyle acclimation that occurs unintentionally and most of the time unaware where we naturally make more.
AJV (05:42):
And so we naturally spend more, thus always creating this desire, this intentional thought that we need to make more. And that’s not necessarily a true, it’s the byproduct of our spending went up. And regardless of how much you make percentage wise, it never feels like you have any leftover. And a part of this is in conjunction with the end of the year, the beginning of the year, and a recent conversation that we had on the podcast with the budget besties who have a financial podcast for women. We can listen to it wherever you listen to your podcast. But it was a really great conversation about awareness, about it’s not often I need to make more conversation. It’s often, do you even know where you’re spending? And are you overspending? Which creates this discontent to make you think you need to make more?
AJV (06:38):
And is it really a spending conversation versus a money conversation? And a lot of that comes down to this B word, right, called a budget. It’s like, do you actually subscribe to living on a budget where there is a designated pile of money that you have for the necessities of your life? IE the bills that you have? Then do you set aside the amounts for spending or savings or whatever it may be? But those are intentional decision decisions of going, I can be content with whatever I have in any situation. And it’s not always a chase for more. Again, not saying that more is bad, it’s just at what cost. It’s just at what cost. And I wanna reiterate, I want more. I want more for our team and for our clients, but not at the cost of peace and joy and time and health and family and friends.
AJV (07:41):
And then it’s an exchange of you can actually have more by simply deciding to spend less. That’s an exchange of going when it, it, it depends on what you want more of. I also believe in the concept of Die with Zero. I believe that when, you know, I go to the grave, I don’t want anything left over. I wanna see the fruits of my labor, labor put to work and whatever I choose to invest it into. But I think these are decisions of going like, how are we using and investing the money that we make in a way that brings more peace not just more dollars in a banking account, because that ain’t going with you. And it’s not that you shouldn’t have reserve savings, you should have emergency funds. I believe in all of those things. And also, this is the decision of going, I’m the, I am the authority.
AJV (08:32):
I am the authority over money in my life. Money is not the authority over me. Money does not dictate the decisions I make. I dictate the decisions and then choose how to use the money I have. And many of us will make financial decisions that will take up 60% of the waking hours of our life. That’s called a job
AJV (09:30):
You better
AJV (10:14):
Do you want better relationships? Do you want better health? Like, what are the things that you really want? And then what are you doing to get those things? And I cannot say this enough, but I’m gonna say it one more time. Making more money is not a bad thing. It’s a good thing. It’s a necessary thing. It’s about what we do with that money and how we let it rule over our hearts. That can be a bad thing, not always, but sometimes it’s just, are you in control or is in, is it in control of you? Is it forcing you to make decisions that are out of alignment with who you are and what you want? And I think that is a question of when is enough enough? And I think all of us have to come to terms with do I really need more money or do I need something else, right? Do I need more purpose, more fulfillment, more time, more peace? And can I get that without stretching and forcing this money conversation by simply choosing to potentially spend less? So when is enough enough.
Ep 544: Keeping More of the Money You Make with the Budget Besties
AJV (00:01):
Hey everybody, and welcome to the Influential Personal Brand podcast. It’s AJ Vaden here, and I’m about to introduce you to two of the most joyful and outgoing and entertaining but also financially prudent and savvy women that I’ve come in contact with in a long time. And they call themselves the budget besties, but
AJV (00:55):
The answer is yes. This might be an episode for you. Would you have like to have less debt, more spending power, less financial pe or more financial peace and less financial stress? If you answered yes to any of those, then this is likely an episode around money, specifically budgeting that will help you have a better and more successful financial path moving forward. And so, as we’re rounding out the year and looking forward to how can we best prepare our audience to have an awesome next year, I thought having the budget besties on the show would be so helpful and powerful for you guys. So let me give them a quick formal introduction, and then we’re gonna get right to the heart of this interview. So, Shayna and Vanessa are best friends and business partners on a mission to help take the shame out of the money conversation. They are master, master financial coaches and also co-hosts of one of the top rated, top 1% actually range podcast financial coaching for women. Now, we’re not gonna talk about financials just for women today, but if you happen to be of the female six, then
SR (02:22):
Us. Yes. Thank you for having us. We’re so excited to talk about the B word
AJV (02:26):
VP (02:59):
You know, I think that we are both financially wired in a way, and I will tell you that I, this whole thing, the reason why we came together, it’s a, it’s a total God story. Yeah. Right. So we met at the YMCA, our boys were four years old,
SR (03:12):
They’re now 16. I know. So just pause for a moment and do the math there,
VP (03:17):
And we were, we worked out together and I was going, I just started going to a church and Shayna needed a new church. And so that next week she came with me and within two weeks we were starting to lead a community group together. Yeah. If that tells you about our friendship.
SR (03:32):
Yeah. So yeah, we signed up for this church and within two weeks we’re leading a community group together that kind of gives you the idea of our friendship and the level of intensity in which we do
VP (03:40):
Anything in difference. Yeah.
SR (03:41):
And so, you know, we did life together as moms, our boys. Like I said, like she said, they were four, now they’re 16 and we’re still doing life together. But it all started AJ with a little book that I know that you are familiar with called The Total Total Money Makeover. Mm-Hmm.
VP (04:07):
Yeah. So I honestly, it’s, it’s hard for me to stay tuned into a book. I read this book in a week. I loved it. I loved the concept of it. My, we were actually going to Portugal. We took the kids and we went for three months to Portugal. My husband came out to
SR (04:20):
Live with her grandmother.
VP (04:21):
Yeah. So my grandmother, I’m half Portuguese, she was out there for six months and she said, bring the kids. And I said, can I do that? And she said, yeah. So I told my husband, I said, babe, I’m gonna go though. I went for three months and really found out what was really important to my family, our morals, values. We loved that simple life. I really, really enjoyed the simplicity of living in a small house and enjoying family and only having what we needed and going to pick the fresh vegetables and everything. So anyways you know, we came back, sold the big house, sold all the stuff that we didn’t need. We bought a smaller house, downsized. And after buying that house in three years, so I was 31 and mortgage free. And debt free. And I realized that that to me was a goal. I wanted to be able to own our house. I wanted to be able to have things that were ours and we didn’t want to live like the Joneses anymore. Like we had our own way of living now. Yeah.
SR (05:07):
And so we were, we were still friends, but we are military, so we were about to move away from Florida, which is where we’re back now. And I was able to through my own I was a stay-at-home mom primarily, but I also had a, you know, side hustle as, as we all did at some point, it seems like. And I was able to cashflow a trip to Disney World for my family, pay for it in cash, which was the first family vacation that we had taken. Military families. You get famously, you get to go home, that’s your vacation every single time,
VP (06:03):
SR (06:54):
Yeah. And, and just real quick, ’cause I know we’ve been talking for about 30 minutes already. It just reminds me of your story with Lewis, how he called, you know, right after that happened with you guys. And it was just that, and that’s what we need as well. We need, God, we need neon flashing signs. Otherwise we may not do be be as keen to understand what, what you have for us. And praise God, he had it for us in that moment, and we’ve been going ever since. Yeah.
AJV (07:16):
You know, what I love about it is we don’t talk a lot about publicly, like the brand positioning statement of brand builders group, but if this is new to any of you listening, it’s like we talk about brand positioning statements at brand Builders group with our clients and our members, which Shayna and Vanessa are, and we talk about you know, the, the core of any personal brand is to determine what problem you solve for the world. What’s the cause of that problem? What message do you have, which is the solution to that problem? How do you uniquely solve that in a way only you can, which is your uniqueness? What are the payoffs to solving it? And that’s kind of your brand positioning statement. And what I love what you guys just said is at the heart of the center of what we build our entire company on, which is very simple. It’s not sexy but it’s very simple and it’s teach what you know. Mm-Hmm.
SR (08:13):
Yeah.
VP (08:13):
And
AJV (08:14):
Well, any great business is a result of, you did something, it changed your life, and now you wanna help other people do the same thing.
SR (08:22):
Yep.
VP (08:22):
Right?
SR (08:23):
Yeah. And you guys always say you’re most powerfully positioned to serve the person you once were. We once were those people. And and you know, we’ve had great mentorship and we’ve been able, we’ve been doing this now for long enough that we’ve been able to kind of take our, to build our own system and, and build our own like you said, best practices. Yeah. But, but for sure we are now helping who we are people who make good money, but have nothing to show for it
VP (08:46):
AJV (09:15):
Well, I love that. And I wanna talk about that. And I have to tell you, like we, we did a total money makeover before we got married. Our commitment to each other is that we would not get married and until we could enter our marriage completely debt free, so that we, we were starting from, you know, ground zero clean slate. And so we did the envelopes for almost two years until we both paid off all of our debt and then got married without any debt and entered. And that’s how we started our marriage. Mm-Hmm.
SR (10:00):
Well, it reminds us of a story. So let’s you know, you know, brand builders, Rory, you guys say a lot. Diluted focus equals diluted results. Mm-Hmm.
VP (10:29):
Yeah. So we were you know, we’re at the front of the class, we’re looking out, and all of a sudden I see a roach. Okay. A big fat Florida roach crawling across the floor, like almost robotic, but its big old arms, and it’s approaching one of our clients. And I gradually, like, continue to let Shana teach, and I just walked out.
SR (10:48):
We’re all on Upward Dog. Yes. Nobody can see
VP (10:51):
Yeah. And I got up quietly, grabbed an extra mat, put it over the roach, and slid it all the way across the room so nobody could see it.
SR (11:00):
Yeah. And, and what what we’ve learned is that that’s kind of how people treat their finances. Mm-Hmm.
VP (11:27):
Yeah. You know, a lot of times they’re,
AJV (11:29):
I wanna touch on that for just a second. Yeah. Because you said an important word there, they feel
VP (11:33):
Yep.
AJV (11:34):
Mm-Hmm.
VP (11:53):
Have. No, absolutely. Because when we first started this, we were trying to find our words. What is, what is actually happening with people when we realize is they have a lot of money. They’re not, they don’t need to live paycheck to paycheck, but it feels that way because their money, they’re not being good stewards of their money, not on purpose, but just because their money is coming in and it’s going out as fast as it is, you know, as fast as it’s coming in. Because there is no rhyme or reason to how they’re spinning. They, it’s not organized. Everything is convoluted into one account. It’s very overwhelming as to what’s happening. And they’re sticking their head in the sand and just not paying attention to it. Yeah. And
SR (12:26):
That’s really, that’s really you know, we’ve all heard of lifestyle creep, and so you have, you know, lifestyle creep as you’re spending, or your money increases, so do your, so does your spending. But what we’ve learned, AJ
VP (13:17):
But, but they, they don’t know what they don’t know. So, like Shana said, they’re sticking in this 18-year-old mindset of one checking account, one one way of doing stuff, because that’s the first way that they were taught. The only way they were taught. They’ve never been taught a new way, which is, you know, nothing wrong with them. It’s just and we’ve not sought out a different way. Right, right.
SR (13:35):
Well, and, and honestly, people feel paralyzed a little bit. So if they do go to seek it out, they get, imagine being our age, which is very young. We’re very young. All of us are very young. Ej It’s fine. And, and being told, you know, just, you know, intensely do nothing but pay off debt. That’s really hard when you have kids and you have all of us.
AJV (13:56):
And very fun. It
SR (13:57):
Not, it’s not fun. It’s not very fun. And, and it’s, it’s, it’s paralyzes people a little bit. Right? Mm-Hmm. So what we wanna do is explain it maybe in a little bit different way so that you can, you know, be a good steward, like Vanessa said, but also let’s, let’s fund some of these fun things. Mm-Hmm. You know, we, honestly, honestly, we’re a little bougie. We wanna be bougie, but we wanna be on a budget. Okay. And we believe you can do both. Yeah. And
VP (14:19):
You know, we love Dave Ramsey, but we used his system first with our clients, and then we found our own system. Mm-Hmm.
AJV (14:59):
And I think those are a couple of things that I think are really good to kind of talk about. So what are some of the biggest pitfalls, traps, mistakes, whatever we wanna call ’em, I’m gonna call ’em mistakes. What are some of the biggest mistakes that you guys see with people managing their money? And what are some things we can do to avoid those next year and forevermore?
SR (15:22):
Well, there’s, there’s one really, really big one. And this is what every, there’s a lot we can go into a lot especially when it comes to relationships and there’s so many different things. But the big one really, honestly, AJ is having one account. So imagine you have one account and it’s trying to track and you’re trying and do a mental math, which hello, I’m not even good at real math, like with a calculator, let alone with just trying to do it in my head. But you’re trying to mental math, whether did the rent get paid my phone bill, but also I need to go to Target. But also the kids are wanting to stop by Chick-fil-A, but all oh, field trip dues are, are tomorrow. Like you’re trying to do all this mental math with one account,
VP (15:54):
And then also at the same time you’re at the grocery store trying to figure out is there enough in there because what’s been pulled and what hasn’t. Right. Yeah.
SR (15:59):
‘Cause The bill’s still gonna get paid. And so you’re trying to do all of this math. So that is one, one mistake. And when we say the 18-year-old system, that’s kind of what it is. You thought, well, I went to the bank and I opened my account. And that’s how it is. Well, we are in this digital age, ladies and gentlemen, so you can have more than one checking account. And so what we teach is let’s separate all of that. Let’s separate and have a Bills account, let’s separate and have spending account, let’s separate and have savings. And we can make all of that automatic, but really truly organizing it and separating it into, like you alluded that you and Rory did when you guys were were, you know, engaged, you had your cash envelopes. We can kind of put that exact same system into your bank and then you can very clearly know what’s going on. And that really does take away some of the stress and the mental math in the mo in the moment.
AJV (16:44):
Yeah.
VP (16:44):
That’s really helpful.
AJV (16:47):
I have a, I have a question. It’s like, why don’t people do that? Is it just ’cause they don’t know that they can’t?
SR (16:54):
Yes.
VP (16:55):
Yeah. That it’s honestly, when we tell people, Hey, open up a second checking account, they’re like, what do you mean? And we’re like, I mean, you can, you can do that. The thing is, is that they’re so used to just having, you know, when you go to a bank, they tell you to open one checking and one savings, and that’s just how you end up operating unknowingly. That you can have a whole different system available to you if you just ask. Right. If all the what is it, what’s the saying? All the answers to the questions you don’t ask, it’s always no. Mm-Hmm.
AJV (17:40):
Yeah. Then, so, okay, here’s a technical question for everyone listening. So then let’s just say I, I just, I jotted down four. There’s a Bills account. We would, we would call it a household account, but Bills account, a spending account, a savings account, and then I stuck one called taxes. So let’s just pretend that we had four accounts, right? So when you get paid is it a manual I’m gonna take in my weekly paycheck and you know, this much goes here, this much goes here? Or are you guys suggesting that you have auto amounts going to different places? Or what, what are some of like the tactical best practices of managing? Yes. Because that takes a kind of organized Truman.
SR (18:22):
Well, well first of all, the, the biggest mistake is manually managing your accounts. The more you’re in it, the, you know, the more we tend to mess it up. No, love us. Right? It’s kinda like me in the kitchen. It’s fine. But the, the thing that we find is that you want to separate all of those accounts. Yeah. And
VP (18:41):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So what what you wanna do is have all of your income come into your, your bills account. So that first, the main account that you have is your bills account. Yeah. And so all of your income, every source of income that’s coming in is coming into one main account. And you only keep in there what’s enough to pay for all of your bills and all of your debt payments. And then from there you automatically are funding Yeah. Funding the other accounts. Yeah.
SR (19:05):
Well, because the, the mistake that you, that you were alluding to that people do is they try to live paycheck. They try to assign paycheck to a specific paycheck to specific jobs. What we want you to do is let’s take a bird’s eye view, a monthly view of what your money can actually do in a month. And that’s from that bird’s eye view. Then we can start to manipulate each paycheck. But what we want, what we love AJ, is to take the rollercoaster ride out of this paycheck to paycheck, this feast or famine. You know, we have people say, well this is this, this, check the rent’s due. So we don’t really have a lot for groceries or, you know, whatever. So stuff like that. And we’re
VP (19:36):
Telling you can actually eat four weeks out of the month, aj, it’s fantastic.
SR (19:40):
VP (19:57):
So much weight off the shoulders.
SR (19:58):
Yes. Especially as mom, they’re, they’re coming at you from every angle with something. And then so we really wanna be able to solve that problem. The other thing that you talked about, taxes. So that’s, we’re gonna separate. We, we really want you to separate your business and your personal and we would have you automate setting aside taxes. Mm-Hmm.
VP (20:29):
That’s the best part that you can rename all your accounts. Yeah.
SR (20:31):
And you know what, so you have boys, we have daughters. If you have an account that says, you know, Melanie’s wedding, you are so much less likely to steal money from that for you to go to go to Target or whatever, go shopping. And so and so you can rename it. We have people say, my name is no when it comes to their savings account, like all kinds of
VP (20:50):
Fun things don’t touch this. Like, right.
SR (20:51):
Yeah. And so, and, and then the real thing is like when you log into your own bank app, you don’t need a special app. You can see all of this money Mm-Hmm.
VP (21:02):
Think that’s the other part of it is people believe or they have this notion that they need a separate app, some third party device or thing that’s gonna help them track all their money. And what, what we like to say is let your bank to be your personal assistant. Let your bank app do the work for you and you can set it up automatically. We teach them this system to where, like you said, the money comes in and then the money all goes out. And it’s all based on what your budget is telling you you’re allotted for those different accounts. But then once it’s set up, right, do something today that’s gonna make tomorrow easier. Once you can set it up, take the time to do that, you’re, you step back and it’s so nice that not have to worry about that. You know, for instance, for an example, my husband gets paid every Wednesday afternoon. So Thursday morning all my transfers happen. Mm-Hmm.
SR (21:48):
And you have money for groceries every week. It’s so amazing.
AJV (21:51):
Yeah. And, and I love, and I love adding some of the funness to it of like, you know, you know, give it personality, but also give it purpose. Right? Mm-Hmm.
VP (22:39):
A lot. A lot. And we’ve also had people who have made a budget, but then they don’t know what to do with it. And that’s, I think that’s where we, where we feel bad because we have tried to use other people’s budgets for our business. And we first came to to, together we tried to find a budget that would help people you know, see if we can partner with somebody to use their budget that they’ve already created. And the reality is that there was not one out there that made sense to us. Mm-Hmm.
AJV (23:20):
Reason I ask, the reason I ask is I was sitting here thinking, how many people actually make budgets?
VP (23:29):
Well,
SR (23:29):
It’s the B word for a reason. Right? Right.
VP (23:30):
It’s taboo.
AJV (23:31):
It’s so, so, okay, so here’s my question for you guys. How do you make a budget? Like, if we’ve got people listening today that are going, well, I thought budgets were people who, for people who didn’t make enough money or I felt budgets or something that you, you, you know, do only when you’re this. And it’s like, if you’re sitting there listening to this going, I I don’t actually have a family budget. I actually don’t have a budget for how I spend my money. What would be a couple of first steps for everyone to do if we’re, if we’re trying to get a financial grasp on how are we going to better steward the money we have? I I do think budgets are helpful and necessary even if you choose not to follow it. It’s like visibility, awareness is step one is awareness. Right? Yeah. So what, what do we do? Like, what’s step? Well,
SR (24:19):
I think, I think the first thing to think is, is to understand that the perception of a budget is that it’s restrictive. Yeah. And I don’t wanna do it. It’s a chore. But what we are going to do is we’re going to let, is show you how it gives you freedom. Freedom to spend and freedom to live the life that you wanna live, to be, you know, bougie on a budget as we say. But, and it’s a very simple process to make a budget. But I think going back to, you know, when you were talking about you and Rory as young people, it’s really about being intentional. Like I, yes, you make good money, but do you, are you really proud? Are you, are you, are you certain about where what it’s doing and where it’s going? Or and is it
VP (24:53):
Serving
SR (24:53):
You well? Yeah. Or is it serving future you? Well, so we can be really intentional and really fun, but what Vanessa was alluding to is we saw these budgets with variable fixed and blah. And where everybody’s like, but what, so what do I do with my hands? Okay. So what you do is you have your income. That’s what you start with. It’s very exciting, aj. It’s the best number. Everybody’s like, woo woo income. So we like to start with the income. Okay. And then next we like to li list out our debt payments. Okay. So we’re trying to do this, you could do this in 10 minutes. Yeah. Rough draft. Be okay with the, you know, b plus work. Let out your list out your debt minimums, because that is what you’re minimally gonna need to pay every month. Mm-Hmm.
VP (25:54):
So after you list it out,
AJV (25:55):
Can I pause there for a second? I have a question for you guys. This is back to a tactical question. How do you even do that? Like to, like, how do you even list out all of the bills? ’cause I think a lot of people are set it and forget it and sometimes there’s annual subscription payments that come out. And it’s like, are you are, how, how do you even do that for a very, for the person who’s going to, I actually, I want to do this. Mm-Hmm.
VP (26:24):
Well, we like to tell people to do a 90 day audit. So a 90 day audit, it’s gonna have you gather all the information that you need to be able to make this. Now we understand there’s quarterly bills, there’s annual bills, like we get that. But if, let’s just start with the monthly stuff first. What are you getting charged for monthly? And sometimes they’re on four different credit cards. Sometimes they’re in one account. Mm-Hmm.
SR (27:10):
Well, and what’s really funny is we, we do work with primarily people who make good money and they don’t necessarily need to cut their bills. That’s not usually the problem. It’s more spending. Yeah. But once they see everything listed out, aj and like you said, it’s just set it and forget it. Well, 7 30, 45, 99 over, like, once you start to see it, you’re like, oh, let me, let me go ahead and take a little ownership over this. Mm-Hmm.
AJV (27:44):
Yeah. And there’s
VP (27:44):
No shame on, like, we’ve had people that fill up every single line in our budget with their subscriptions and all their everything there. That’s fine. We don’t, that’s, there’s no shame in that. We want you to be able to live a life that you can afford. But that’s the thing is can you afford it? And sometimes you don’t know the answer to that because you haven’t listed it on paper to even see if it’s possible.
AJV (28:00):
I was in a conversation with my husband, Rory a couple of weeks ago about all these miscellaneous charges. ’cause We have a household bookkeeper that’s something that we’ve chosen to invest our money into because both of us are like, we’re not very good at monitoring this and we need someone to help us. And I, a couple months earlier I had seen those and I had gone in and made sure like, well, we don’t use that. We’ve outgrown that. Or we don’t, we, we hired, you know, a full-time nanny. We don’t need the babysitter app anymore. And so I had canceled all these, but they kept coming. Mm-Hmm. And I was like, I was like about to like dispute all these charges with a credit card. Like, I was like furious. I was like, I canceled all these, y’all, both of us had them on two separate cards, two separate account names. And not only were we paying for stuff not being used, neither of us had known the other person had also signed up and subscribed to it. So I think part of the reason you’re not was asking is like, man, you don’t even know where your money is going sometimes unless you’re doing these types of audits. And I had canceled in this particular with like a care.com, but he had signed up for one and we were both paying for the same thing. Gum app that we’re both of them not being utilized.
VP (29:15):
Right. It happens a lot. Yeah. We see that a lot. We, I even had a lady who was paying for an auto insurance on a card that she no longer owned for like a year. And she, we couldn’t, she wouldn’t, you know, I don’t have access to their bank accounts, but she was like, something’s not adding up as a girl. We have to figure this out. Sure enough, it was an insurance payment. Yeah.
AJV (29:34):
And, and so I think that’s why I ask, because I think that’s so important. It’s like, even if you go, oh yeah, I’m gonna keep all those, it’s just, just awareness. Yeah. It’s just awareness of like, where’s your money going? And that was just like a recent story that happened to us. And I’m like, ah, that is so ridiculous. It’s awareness. We had that So ridiculous. Yeah. Didn’t even know. It is.
SR (29:55):
Yeah. It is awareness. And that’s like what we were talking about sweeping, sweeping the under the rug usually. And I you said you that you guys have a bookkeeper because you’re not good at math. Which I would not agree with. But anyway. Yeah. I thought I was gonna, you were gonna say ’cause you’re too busy. Yeah. Like you guys are a lot busy. You have full lives. And do I wanna spend amount, amount enough time on, on my budget?
AJV (30:14):
Absolutely. Managing it.
SR (30:15):
Oh, managing. That’s what was, sorry. Yeah. She’s like, excuse me. I’m very good. CEO good at math. I don’t like math, but really, but who has, who has the time? And really we do try to solve that, right. And make this a very hands off, very easy system so that you, so, so that we all can spend time on, on more fun things than budgeting. But it is, it does happen more often than you think. And that’s really what, like you said, it’s just awareness. Let’s just look at this once in a while and make sure that everything that we’re spending our money on is what we wanna be spending our money on. Well,
VP (30:42):
In the old days, you think about, there were check registries, people were, they’re tracking transactions. There’s apps that are trying to help you do that. And you’re, that is so time consuming. Nobody has the time. We’re very busy. We have a lot, we have wonderful lives that we’re very excited about. They’re very full that we want to do. We wanna spend our time doing other things with our kids and at their events at work. Nobody has time to sit there and track your finances. So, like Shana said, the way that we have it set up for you is an automatic system that if you just take the time one afternoon to be able to do, it’s a basically a set it and forget it. Remember that George Foreman a long time ago,
SR (31:24):
And if you can imagine the Bills account, so what, what we said is if you have one checking account right now, you have hundreds of transactions, like literally every, every Chick-fil-A every, you know, soccer due from YMC or whatever, everything is in there. If you switch it to what we’re talking about having a Bills account, you would’ve found those much easier because there’s only so many bills transactions happening. And you can really, you can clearly isolate that and without a lot of time and you’ll be able to see it. So then, but okay, so to recap, we were talking about income. Yay. Fun number, excited. Everybody’s having a good time immediately to kind of the worst number, which is debt minimums, which the Vaden didn’t have when they got married. Congratulations. And then we’re going to the bills, right? But then after that is the,
VP (32:02):
The most fun.
SR (32:03):
That’s when we’re getting, we’re getting, we’re finally here where we get to spend money. It’s very exciting. This
VP (32:07):
Is where you live in your budget, right? Yeah.
SR (32:08):
And so this is really what, what differentiated us when we, when we made our, our budget. When you spend money, this is when you’re swiping. When you’re either going to the grocery store, you’re going to the restaurant, you’re going even if you’re paying for a babysitter, all of this stuff that you’re spending, it’s not a bill, but it’s over here. It’s discretionary. It’s different every month maybe. And that’s what we really wanna put over there in that column. And we will add, you know, with, when you use the audit that we talked about, that’s when it can get a little ugly. We’ve had clients come in and say, well, I did what you told me and I wanted to throw up, up. So thank you for that. Because they were spending so much money on restaurants. Imagine, you know, $4,000 a month on, on restaurants. If you have a goal to get out of debt, seen it, you have a goal to travel. Like, you know, it’s just not in alignment. And that’s what, like you said before, awareness. It’s what it’s really about.
VP (32:54):
Yeah. So the idea with this spending account is really just allow you to see how much money you’re spending. And so there’s two questions here. What am I spending my money on and what do I wanna be spending my money on? Mm-Hmm.
SR (33:37):
Well, and another key part of this pers of this spending column, and we’re not done yet, we got one more column after the spending, but is personal spending. So when you were asking earlier about feeling people have money, baggage, and they have different kind of self sabotage things that they do when it comes to their money. And so one of the, one of the ways to fix that is to get you used to having money. You have money, you have money to spend, nobody’s telling. You can’t. And so you can take away some of that, some of that angst that people have. You have permission. You have permission. Go to target girl, go to target to your heart out or wherever you need to go. And, and, and that’s the personal spending money. And we want that separate for each you know, the the husband and the wife or whatever, whatever you know, situation you have there. We want that separate so that you can, you can have it. And, and it really does help heal. Yes. Your relationship with money in some ways. And, you know, this whole system is really gonna help heal your relationship with your spouse when it comes to money as well.
AJV (34:35):
Hmm. Yeah. I think that’s so good of just like the personal spending accounts where it’s like, don’t have to ask permission. These are set aside amounts where it’s my free will money. And I, and I love that. And I think, you know, one of the things I think is like, so important that you guys brought up is like, we have money baggage, right? Mm-Hmm.
AJV (35:22):
I have to make more. And the question is, but do you
VP (35:59):
You know, we’ve had couples come together and, and never actually talk about money before they get married. And so when they get married, well, first of all, nobody ever taught them how to handle their own money. And then they get married, and now you’re having to handle two people’s, you know, two people money together that neither one of ’em ever spoke about. Mm-Hmm. So then you have the husband whose family maybe was very wealthy never had to worry about money. So he just spent all the time. Then you have the wife who came in whose family didn’t have a lot of money. So any money she does have, she wants to hold onto it because there’s money baggage there. And he has money baggage in his own way because never had to worry about it. So it was never a problem. Right. And then they come together trying to work this out and, and do finances together. It’s really, really difficult.
SR (36:40):
Hmm. Yeah. And one of the, one of the things that people are doing is they’re, they’re trying to not, they’re not looking at their numbers. So they’re just spending, spending spending until the, until they get to zero. That’s usually, or until their credit card balance is, is maxed. That’s, those are the two options. And, and so when we take ’em through the system, they have to get used to having money. It’s such a strange phenomenon. Like, you know, you, you’re making good money, you have money, like you’re, you’re doing well, but they, you still have this internal need to spend, spend, spend because you, you’re still living on that 18-year-old system or whatever where I didn’t have anything. And it’s scarcity. And so that is one interesting thing that we’ve seen is their, their money starts to stack up in their savings account. They have money every time they get paid.
SR (37:21):
And you can’t, you can’t have this self-sabotage loop of spend, spend, spend, have no money, spend, spend. It starts to break it. But it really is about, you know, taking full ownership when it’s amazing how I, how we can see people that, that spend money on their hair, their nails, their vacations, their, their car, like they’re so spiny, but once they actually start to look at it, they, and they take ownership. They’re not running from it anymore. Right. They’re looking at it, they’re taking ownership. They, they change. They really do. This is gonna blow your mind. They get more excited about saving money. Mm-Hmm.
VP (38:05):
We have on average, depending on where people are in their, their financial journey, like they’re either paying off or saving about $20,000 in six months after working with us and seeing that the system that we put in, in place for them. But Shayna just had a client the other day who had money in the account and before they met, she just like transferred it out somewhere and Shayna’s like, what, what’d you do? And she said, well, I had money in there, so I just moved it. And she’s like, no, no, no. What the reality is, is because she’s not used to having money, she’s not used to seeing any money in her account. She’s usually always in the red or it’s, you know, at zero. So for her to see this money that we specifically put there on purpose, that was really hard for her to like settle with and be okay with.
AJV (38:41):
Yeah. I think, I think that that the, those emotional ties to money that we all have, regardless if it came from childhood, adolescence, adulthood, doesn’t matter where it comes from, it comes from something. And it’s, it really is having good awareness of what am I making? What am I spending, what do I want? And then what do I have to do about it? Right. Mm-Hmm.
SR (39:25):
Well, as we alluded to, go ahead and print out three months worth of those statements. Print out the credit, whether it’s credit card or debit card, no shame there, but let’s just look at it. We like, we like to imagine that everybody can embrace their inner nerd and just get some highlighters, get, you know, just take, take a moment and just look and see what’s been going on. Bring
VP (39:43):
A beverage, bring some snacks, make a fun afternoon of it, and
SR (39:46):
Really just see what’s been going on with your money. And you know, when, when people do this, they, they tend to get down on themselves a little bit. They like, like we alluded to, several clients have come and say, well, that wasn’t fun. Mm-Hmm.
VP (40:19):
Yeah. That, that’s true. Literally when we make a budget, they’re like, what do you mean I have $3,000 left over? I’m like, well, I mean, the one thing we love about finances, that numbers don’t lie. Yeah. Math doesn’t lie. It’s really black and white. So for them to be able to see all this leftover money, it’s really eyeopening. So, you know, when they do the 90 day audit and they look at all their, their, their
SR (40:35):
Numbers Yeah.
VP (40:36):
How they have been spending their money. The next step is to, the one thing that they can do is separate your accounts. Mm-Hmm. If it’s the one thing that they got out of this podcast at all is to open a separate checking account specifically for spending, and they can transfer a certain amount of money in the air every paycheck based on what their budget allows for them to have the freedom to spend. So that way it’s not convoluted, it’s not met mixed up with all of their bill and their debt payments. Well,
SR (40:59):
And just one more little thing, you know, we’re coming into the new year, you’re gonna be thinking about your goals anyway at brand builders. You know, we start with who, who are, who are you going to serve right here? Think about who you wanna be. Think about what you guys, what this big exciting vision you have for your life. Because no matter what it is, whether it’s being generous, whether it’s traveling, whether it’s something for your, your kids, it re probably gonna require money. Mm-Hmm.
AJV (41:35):
Yeah. The, that’s good. And I, and I love that ’cause it’s like, money is not bad. Right? Letting it rule over your life is bad, but money itself is not inherently bad. It is not bad to make money. Money is necessary and does much good. It’s just what we do with the money and is it ruling over our hearts or are we ruling over it? And this is a step to putting you in control over you ruling it, not it ruling you. Right. Exactly. Yeah, this has been so good and, and so timely as we head into the new year and specifically as we’re going, like most of your spending for the year is done. Mm-Hmm.
SR (42:34):
Oh, well, yes. We really, really do. So we talked about this budget system that we created working with clients after, after you know, using other ones. And we have redesigned it and it’s really important that everybody knows it’s clear, it’s beautiful. That’s important. It’s important. If you want to look at the math, it should look nice. It has check boxes. Yes. We have added some bells and whistles, but it’s a whole system for you to be able to take control of your finances and, you know, set up your
VP (42:59):
Budget. Yeah. So you get lifetime access to this budget system. So you get to use it year after year. The idea is that you use one whole system for the entire year, then you get to re Mm-Hmm.
SR (43:39):
May be so scary if it’s one page right. Like that, that seems fair. And so you can go to budget besties.com/aj to to check that
AJV (43:47):
Out. Yeah. So I would just encourage, like, if you’re listening to this going, man, it’s been a while since I made a budget. I should probably, I should probably have one. Or man, I don’t really know what to do and I never review my spending. This is an opportunity to have a reset moment. Mm-Hmm,
AJV (44:43):
You guys can go to budget besties.com/podcast. And then you can also just look it up which is Financial Coaching for Women. So check them out visit their podcast, check out their website check out this course. And most importantly, make sure that you make some changes about how you’re viewing your money so that you get to keep more of it. Shane and Vanessa, thank you so much for being on the show. For everyone who’s listening, stay tuned for the recap episode and we will see you next time on the influential personal brand.
Ep 543: How To Find Where Your Ideal Clients are Gathering | Michael Mogill Episode Recap
RV (00:06):
Welcome to the Influential Personal Brand podcast. This is the place where we help Mission-driven messengers, just like you learn how to build and monetize your personal brand. My name is Rory Vaden and I’m the co-founder of Brand Builders Group, a hall of fame speaker, and New York Times bestselling author. And this show is to help experts learn how to become more wealthy and well known. I know you’re gonna love it. Thanks for being here. Let’s get started. Before you can sell to your clients, you have to find them
RV (01:01):
In this video, we’re gonna share with you the eight top ways to find where your perfect clients all hang out. Let’s dive in right away with number one. And the first one is, it should be where you hang out. It really should be, it should be all the places that you hang out. Why? One of our fundamental core beliefs at Brand Builders Group is that you are always most powerfully positioned to serve the person you once were. Which means that if you are building a personal brand, it should be built around people that you’re trying to help. The people that you are best suited to help and who you are most likely to make a lot of money from quickly are the people who are like you were a few years ago. That is who you’re most powerfully positioned to serve. It’s who you are most divinely equipped to help support, which means that those people should be you.
RV (02:00):
They should have been you maybe five or 10 years ago or something like that, right up front. If you’re having a hard time finding your ideal clients, then you might be serving the wrong avatar because that means you are trying to reach someone who you don’t fully understand. If you’ve done the rest of your personal brand strategy right, and you’ve had a good strategist from our team, or if you’re doing it yourself, you should be dialed in on these people because it should be you. So ask yourself that question. Where do you hang out? What are the, what are the magazines that you read? You know, what are the conferences that you go to? And, and you really should know those if you don’t. That brings us to number two, which is ask, ask your current clients where they hang out. Send them a survey, call them on the phone, shoot ’em a quick email, like when you see them at your, in your next encounter, just ask, Hey, what are the books that you read?
RV (02:59):
What are the magazines you subscribe to? What are the podcasts that you listen to? What are the conferences you go to? What associations are you involved with? Who do you follow? Like ask your current clients. Where are their favorite sources of media? And there’s lots of ways to ask. You could do that in person with a email, with a survey, et cetera, et cetera. But ask, it is one of the legitimate best ways to find new pockets where your clients might be hanging out that you’re just not aware of. So go ahead and ask. It’s super, super, super simple. Number three is follow other industry leaders. You should follow other industry leaders. One of the biggest mistakes that personal brands make is that they forget, in order to be a great teacher, you must first be a great student. So you should, again, you should be studying, you should be learning, you should be following other industry leaders or other leaders who are in your space, not ’cause you’re gonna copy them, not ’cause you’re gonna steal their stuff, because you’re gonna learn from them.
RV (04:02):
And because that’s gonna help shape you and, and, and help you understand your space. It’s gonna help you know what’s already been written. It’s gonna help you in order to forward the conversation, which is what a thought leader does. A thought leader forwards the conversation. You have to be in the conversation, right? You have to know what conversation is being had. So follow the other industry thought leaders, because they’re gonna point you to resources and talk about people and events and tools and media outlets and groups that you can be, you know, plugging into. And that’s gonna help, help you understand really quickly where those people are. Which brings us to number four, which is kind of related. It’s podcasts. You should be listening to the podcasts in your space, right? Like they’re going to interview and feature other guests who are world renowned leaders in, in your space.
RV (04:54):
Now, our goal here, right as we build your personal brand, is that one day we want you to be the guest, right? I mean, one day you’ll probably be the host first, and we want you to get interviews with those other people. And then one day we want you to become the guest where you are the expert thought leader. You are the most world renowned authority. You are, you know, the leading, recognized voice in your space, but you have to kind of know who those people are. And so listen to the podcast and this plugs into number five, which is search. Use the search, search for your topic, search for your space, search for your audience in each of the search functions, not just Google, but search in the YouTube search bar, search inside of Twitter, search inside of Facebook, search the terms on TikTok, search the actual terms, and that will introduce you to the leaders, the influencers, the movers and shakers.
RV (05:49):
And it’s gonna show you the groups, right? Search on LinkedIn and, and you search a topic like sales and all the top sales groups are gonna come up. They’re all right there, right? Someone has already gathered your audience. That’s the great thing is while you want, while you build an audience, you want to find existing audiences while you build your own audience, which is one of the things we’re super passionate about, is teaching you how to build your own audience while you’re building your own audience. You need to find existing audiences, and that’s what this whole video lesson is all about, right? So use the search feature. Relatedly is hashtags, which is number six. Hashtags are going to help you find your people. And, and if you’re following industry leaders pay attention when they use a hashtag, right? If you don’t know what a hashtag is, right, it’s just, it’s just the pound sign and then a word, right?
RV (06:42):
Like, you know, we sometimes use mis pound mission driven messengers. And so if you’re following brand builders group, that’s like one of the hashtags that our, our people youth, right? So you would, if you were following us, you would pay attention and go, oh, there’s other people who are following this, this type of a hashtag. You gotta know what are the top hashtags in your industry? Again, this tool that I’m gonna share with you at the end of this video is gonna do all of these for you. So make sure that you stick around. Number seven is Google Alerts. Google Alerts. Google Alerts is one of the oldest features of Google. A lot of people still don’t know about it, but it still works really, really well. You can actually take any term that you would ever type into a Google search bar, and you can set an alert for that term.
RV (07:29):
And what a Google Alert does is it automatically emails you anytime that term shows up in a new published article or in a new online mention somewhere. So Google is scraping the web and it’s, it’s basically like making Google an employee for you, like a virtual assistant or something that’s gonna go scour the internet every day for all the new articles and all the new websites and any new mention of the terms that matter most to you. By the way, you should at least have a Google alert for your name, because you definitely wanna know when people are talking about you and writing about you online. So make sure that you set up Google alerts. And then finally, number eight, the tool is called Spark Toro. This is my absolute favorite. This is a tool that we discovered maybe about a year ago, and it is incredibly powerful because it basically does all of these first seven things for you.
RV (08:25):
What Spark Toro allows you to do is basically type in a topic and then it will tell you all of the people who are sort of like the leading authorities on that topic, or basically it, it scrapes the web and says, people who follow this topic also follow all of these people. The other thing it will do is you can say, you can put in a person and say something like, you know, whoever Mel Robbins and you say, I wanna reach people like the people Mel Robbins reaches. And so you could say people you type in Mel Robbins and Spark Toro will tell you, here’s everybody who has followers that are similar to the people who follow Mel Robbins. It’s a tremendously powerful tool. It it’ll introduce you to you know, branded, like branded or themed accounts or company accounts or just like communities as well as other thought leaders who you’ll be like, I didn’t even, I’ve never even heard of that person, even though maybe you have been in the space for a long time.
RV (09:26):
So we’ll include an our affiliate link to Spark Toro, but it’s a free tool. You get so many free uses of it, or at, at least at the time of this video, it is a free tool and you can use a couple free searches a month, and then you pay some very nominal rate to have access to this. So check out spark Toro. You can click on our affiliate link or just check it out on your own. But there you have it. There you have it. Eight ways to find your ideal audience. You have to find your audience before you can sell to your audience. And remember, before you can be a great teacher, you must first be a great student. So make sure you’re plugged in to your area and to your space to that you are one of these people in and among the crowd, so that you can then rise and raise your personal brand to where you’ll become at the front of that crowd.
Ep 542: How to Build a 9-figure Personal Brand with Michael Mogill
RV (00:03):
You are about to meet someone that I admire dearly. Michael Mogul is someone who I think is the epitome of someone who is doing the things that we teach personal brands to do. Except he’s not a client of ours,
RV (00:56):
And Michael has been amazing. Let me give you a little bit of his formal bio. So he’s the founder and CEO of Crisp, which is the number one law firm growth company in America. So they advise law firms on how to grow their practice and do another number of things related to, you know, improving operational efficiency, increasing profits, marketing, sales, the whole thing. They, they curate a huge event many different events, but a, a, a huge event. And he is also the author of a book called The Game Changing Attorney, which is one of Amazon’s bestselling books in the legal category. He hosts the Game Changing Attorney podcast which again, is one of the top podcasts in his niche of legal market leaders. The, the, the conference they put on is called the Crisp Game Changer Summit.
RV (01:46):
It’s huge conference. They’ve had many of the biggest speakers in the world and they help thousands of attorneys that are from solo and small firms to large practices just to differentiate themselves and, and earn millions in revenue. And in the process of that, the Michael’s company, Chris, has become very, very well respected. One of the fastest growing companies in Atlanta, twice, has been on the Inc 5,000 in the top 10%. And he’s just a, a student of personal development and, and personal growth. And I just want you to hear the story of how somebody has built a massive business serving one very specific niche. And so here to tell us that story is Michael Mogul. Michael, welcome to the show, man. Thank you for having me. So tell us a little bit about how, how you got, so, first of all, did I say anything in inaccurate in what I just said? That, that, that was a mouthful of me trying to just recapture, but that, that, that’s it, right? Like you guys serve the, the just lawyers exclusively in a very, very deep way. You curate events just for them. You write books just for them. You create podcasts just for them, right? That’s right. And, and as you were saying it, I, I felt like you were talking about
MM (02:58):
Somebody, somebody else. So it’s a, it was amazing, right? Like the, you hear all these accolades and you know, it, it’s, it’s kinda like the feeling that I had when I released, you know, our first book and, you know, the day before. I wasn’t a bestselling author, but the day after I was. And it’s just, it’s amazing how, how life changes.
RV (03:13):
Yeah. Yeah. So give us a sense of the size of your business to whatever e extent you’re comfortable. The, the number of customers you see, the, the size of your, your employees, your, your, the size of your events, just like whatever, yeah. Whatever analytics or empirical stuff you can give us to give us a, I wanna, I want people to understand a sense of the scope of what you’ve been able to build, serving a, you know, a a very specific audience.
MM (03:39):
Yeah. Yeah. So at this point, we work with about a thousand law firms across the country. Okay. And then roughly, because we also work with I’d say probably close to about 2000 law firm team members. We have, you know, this point, I’d say probably between 120, you know, 120 to 130 employees, right? That are full-time in the company. We are high eight figures. We’ve gotten a nine figure valuation for the business. And the business is entirely bootstrapped, started with $500 to my name, no investors, no loans, no partners, you know, no funding. Nothing like that.
RV (04:07):
That’s incredible. And, and this is one of the first points I want to make for people who are listening. I’ve been saying a lot that too many people are chasing the, the width of their reach, that they’re forgetting about the depth of their impact. And everybody’s chasing millions of followers, millions of followers, millions of followers. You’ve got a business that’s valued at nine figures with 1000 customers. That’s it. One, one thou not tens of thousands, not hundreds of thousands, not millions. 1000 customers, nine figures, for those of you mathematicians, that’s a hundred million dollars plus valuation from a thousand customers. Michael, that’s extraordinary. And I think that that represents the future of how monetization will be done for, for, for personal brands. So tell us about how you started it. ’cause I, you, I know when you and I talked before, you were like, yep, no investors and no partners. So, so how the heck did you start it? Because clearly if you didn’t have investors and a bunch of money, you must have started, you must have started fairly small, right?
MM (05:17):
Oh, yeah, yeah. I mean, as, as as small as small gets. So I am a first generation immigrant. So my, my, my family and I, we immigrated here. They were, you know, refugees coming over from Eastern Europe. We came here, I was four years old and you know, this was in 1990. And at the time, you know, my, my parents, you know, being immigrant parents, my career path was either doctor or lawyer. And when I went to college, I actually went pre-med at, took the mcat, got into medical school, decided that that was not for me. I spent, you know, hundreds of hours shadowing doctors, but I was always very entrepreneurial in nature. Like, I had a, you know, a web design company when I was 16 years old. And, you know, there’s always like these entrepreneurial ventures. So at the time, you know, where, you know, when I finished college and, you know, I got into medical school, I put in for a deferral just essentially to say, well, I’m not sure I wanna go yet, but I wanna take a year to just kind of find out.
MM (06:05):
This was in 2008. For those that remember this was, you know, not a great time in the economy. So I go from, you know, seemingly about to go to medical school, to washing dishes at a dive bar. Nice. It’s called Taco Mac. And yeah, it was like the American dream. You can imagine how, you know, how proud my parents were at this point. And essentially I went from there to washing lab equipment at the CDC, so the Centers to Disease Control. And while I was there, I had an opportunity to do some of the web design and web development. But really I was trying to figure out like, what do I wanna do with my life? And how do I want to, you know, spend my time? Like, what, what skills do I have? I knew I didn’t wanna go to medical school, so, you know, I just, I started doing all sorts of stuff.
MM (06:43):
Like, I would try to use the time productively to develop skills, whether it was in understanding like money, or whether it was understanding marketing. And I bought a camera. ’cause I just figured this would be like a lifetime hobby to learn, like, just to, just to take pictures. Wow. And every day I had the goal of just like taking one great photo and it was like, you know, like taking photos of flowers and plants and, you know, that sort of thing. But for me, my hobbies, you know, tend to turn into businesses. So the, you know, getting the camera turned into a photography business. And this was originally in like, in the hospitality space, so like bars and restaurants and concerts. Okay. Photography became, you know, video. And we had a a company in Atlanta where we were just doing photography and video and, and nightclub promotions and just working with like Live Nation when there were concerts that came into town.
MM (07:26):
And eventually I started doing that full time. After I’d say four to five years, I started to realize that I think I’m sitting at the wrong table. Meaning that, you know, I’m, I’m going all in on this, but half of our clients go outta business every year. ’cause The bars and restaurants turn it over, and then when it rains outside that, you know, that affects our business. So who would be a better fit client? And at the time it was our corporate clients. So things like the W hotels, red Bull, Verizon, Coca-Cola. So that’s really how CRISP started. It was the pivot from, you know, one industry to focusing more on, on corporate clients. But at the same time, we had no focus, like, meaning that we would work, you know, doing videos for anyone. I mean, when I started the business, even originally in 2012, I had $500 to my name.
MM (08:06):
So it’s like, how do we get clients and customers? And I just went down my list of contacts on my phone and I messaged everyone. I was saying, does anyone know anyone who needs a video? Right. And, and we were doing, I mean, it didn’t matter if we would do like a bar mitzvah or a soccer tournament or, you know, you’re just, you know, filming a dental practice, you know, whatever it was, there was just no focus whatsoever at the time. It was just, how do I get business? It was just me. And I will say that one of the biggest, you know, kind of pivots in the business that that led to a lot of exponential growth was when we started working with lawyers and law firms. So at the time we were doing videos for everyone, brands, different types of professional services, like just all sorts of different industries and businesses. It was just, it was about selling video to everyone, which was not, you know, not a great way to scale. And then,
RV (08:48):
Yeah, so you, you’re doing like, you’re, you’re, you’re selling to everyone, but you’re a generalist and so you’re just like, yeah, getting low dollar things like here and there. When, when you, when you decided to go on law firms. ’cause ’cause Yeah, here’s the ironic fear that all of our clients have when we, when we tell them like, Hey, pick, pick one and, and serve one audience very deep is they think that that will be limiting. They go, well, if I only serve this one audience, I’m gonna be saying no to all of these other people, and that that’s gonna make my business smaller and less revenue and less profitable. It’s like the, the idea of focusing on a, on a more specific, they, they confuse that being specific means being smaller. But it was not, it’s not that, it was not that way for you.
MM (09:43):
Absolutely not. And in fact, I even learned this lesson from many of the lawyers we worked with. So at the time, I mean, this happened by accident. I’m not a lawyer, nobody on our team is a lawyer. And we had a a fan, a phenomenal attorney come to us that essentially she, you know, she was working hard, but she couldn’t compete with the big advertisers, whether it was on tv, radio, billboard. She didn’t have the resources to compete. And we ended up producing a number of videos for her, like really that highlighted her area of expertise, what set her apart. Those videos went on social media and her business exploded. And then that led to her referring another lawyer that she knew and then another lawyer. And at the time, I didn’t know anything about the legal industry. As I started to learn more, I saw a super saturated, very competitive, commoditized space that consumers have a difficult time differentiating one lawyer from another lawyer.
MM (10:29):
And then I saw that, okay, well if they’re producing these great videos that tell their story, this becomes in, in a way a competitive edge, right? Especially for, you know, most law firms which can’t compete on TV and radio and other traditional forms of advertising. I also found, and this is kind of where that niche focus starts to come in, is that the law firms that came to us that were these full service firms that were doing personal injury and criminal defense and family law and so on, they were really struggling to bring in cases versus the ones that were honed in on one practice area. But the ones that were doing the best were honed in on one practice area, but then they found a deep niche, like a personal injury lawyer that focused exclusively on trucking accidents or motorcycle accident cases, right? The ones that had that, you know, that deep niche, they were able to be very focused in their marketing messaging and also were able to stand out and differentiate versus saying, Hey, we help all injured people, or we help not just injured people, but we also help those going through divorces.
MM (11:20):
And we also help those that need like, you know, business litigation, right? Because you’re just so broad. So I think that’s where, you know, that that started. And then for me, when we made that pivot fully and exclusively to working with lawyers and law firms, it’s just, I candidly saw that we were making a much greater impact. And I liked helping small business as opposed to some of these larger corporations where, you know, they had to spend the money, right? They, they had the budget, it was a lot of like decision makers, but helping another entrepreneur was much more rewarding. And we were helping them solve a challenge that we ourselves were solving in the process of how do you differentiate and stand out in a very crowded space where consumers have a hard time towing one apart from another.
RV (11:56):
Yeah. And I, the the other thing that’s amazing about this, right, is somebody listening might be like, oh, well that’s good. Michael figured out his niche and he’s crushed the law space. So now I can’t get into the law space. And I go, no, you’ve reached a thousand, you have a thousand attorneys. How many attorneys are there in the us? Do you have any idea?
MM (12:19):
Oh yeah, there’s about 1.3 million
RV (12:21):
MM (13:10):
Absolutely. And in fact, I was speaking with a, with an attorney recently. So she focuses on allergen law and apparently there’s only three lawyers. She focuses
RV (13:16):
On what? Allergy
MM (13:17):
Allergy law, right? So like if you, let’s say the types of cases would be if you go to a restaurant and you have a child who’s allergic to peanut butter and you tell the restaurant, Hey, you know, make sure no peanut butter, but then they put, put it on there anyway. And they have, you know, this massive allergic reaction they have to go to the hospital that is allergy law. And she said that she’s one of three that focuses on allergen law across the country. Like meaning that there’s just, there’s only three of them. It’s not, it’s not a super well-known practice area. There’s not a ton that do it. But she’s become kind of the go-to expert in this space because she writes books on allergy law, she’s now working with the FDA in terms of advising them. She works with several nonprofits and, and it’s such a, you know, you can find like the more narrow the focus we find, the more successful they are generally and the more known they are for that specific area.
MM (14:02):
Like, it is much, much easier, I think to grow a successful law firm. Probably a successful business as well, if you’re very clear on, and, and as you know, Roy, I mean like, you know who you’re for and who you’re not for down to the marketing messaging down to being able to differentiate and stand out and resonate. So I find that the more and more you niche down, I mean, I guess the common thought is that, oh, there’s gonna be less available. You know, like total addressable market, right? It’s like, oh, there’s gonna be less people, but you don’t need to win. You know, you don’t need to boil the ocean essentially.
RV (14:29):
Mm-Hmm,
MM (15:39):
Yeah, so when we started out, you know, started the company in 2012 video, then started working with lawyers, I believe around like 20 13, 20 14. But really the, so the expansion started where, you know, video was great, you know, to help somebody differentiate and stand out from the competition. It was great content. But then the next thing we heard was that, okay, I’ve got this great video, but how do I get it out there? Like, how, you know, how do I actually get the phone to ring and how do I get, you know, get known? Which is really where the marketing started of us placing the content on social media for our firms. So that was the marketing piece. And then we realized, you know, several years in that, okay, you can have great content and you can be, you know, promoting and amplifying that content, but then what happens when someone reaches out to you?
MM (16:18):
And that’s where all, like, everything beneath the iceberg of do you have a good business? Do you have the right people in place? You know, is the operation strong? Like is the culture, right? Like all those elements that sometimes you can have great marketing, but if you’re already working 80 hours a week, getting more calls, getting more leads, getting more cases doesn’t, you know, really materially improve your life. ’cause You’re already working 80 hours a week. So that’s where we went from video to marketing to coaching. And we soon saw that, you know, when we were doing workshops and coaching our firms on the leadership side of really growing a successful business, you know, in, in, you know, in their field. Now it’s like, okay, you can work with the firm owner. But then we started to get their team members on board because the team members were, that’s where all the true leverage came in for them.
MM (16:57):
So we started the team member workshops and we added, you know, onsite trainings. We come out to their office and then we even recently added recruiting to where we were first coaching on here’s how you can source and find these candidates. ’cause Hiring was one of the biggest challenges for many of our firms. And then we say, you know what, here’s the, we’re gonna show you how to do it and teach you how to do it. And then there’s the option of, we’ll do it for you. But what, where this all came from, I guess coming back to the, the reason for this evolution of the ecosystem was in the fact that we, we said from day one, we’re an law firm growth company. And one of the things that I didn’t love is that I hear a lot of businesses say they are an, you know, an x, y, z growth company, but what does that really mean?
MM (17:32):
Right? And can you really help solve a true business growth problem if you’re focusing really on only on one area? Like if we were only producing the content, if we were only doing the marketing, right? And I really viewed this as being a holistic solution of having like kind of a go-to shop that helps you understanding that you need to have all these elements and all these pieces, pieces to truly achieve these growth goals. Like if a firm comes to us and they’re at a million in revenue and they say they wanna get to 10 million in revenue, okay, is video gonna take them from one to 10 million? Probably not, not on its own at least, right?
RV (18:00):
It’s gonna help, yeah. Not just as an independent item that doesn’t, it has to exist inside of a ecosystem of, of like Strat, like strategic offerings or I guess operational elements.
MM (18:11):
Exactly. I mean, we just found that you’ve gotta get your messaging right. You’ve gotta get the positioning right. You gotta have the right content. You have to make sure that you’re promoting and amplifying the content in the form of marketing so people hear about you. And then once that call comes in that you’re providing, you know, you’re living up to your marketing, you’re providing great service, you’ve got a strong leadership team, like there’s operations in place in terms of processes and systems and procedures and so on. And now you can really start to grow and scale a great business. So all those elements and those expansions, the ecosystem came back to, if we say we’re gonna be a law firm growth company, then, you know, we really wanna make sure that we’re integrated and helping our firms solve this problem, you know, from, from beginning to end.
RV (18:45):
Mm-Hmm,
MM (19:30):
Yeah. You know, it’s funny, it sounds so obvious when you say it, but every time we made one of these expansions in the ecosystem, people looked at me like I had horns on my head and they’re like, what are you doing? Like the, the big shift when we went from video to, to coaching, like, I mean, we had team members that, you know, who looked at me and said, you know, I don’t understand the vision. We had a lot of people in the legal industry that were saying like, what is Chris doing? Chris is a video company. What are they doing getting into coaching? You know, that sort of thing over the years. But as you’ve described it, and this is the way that I saw it as well, was like, this is the natural progression, right. Of fulfilling the next need.
RV (20:01):
Yeah. So there’s, the reason it’s, it feels simple to me is also ’cause we’ve done it wrong for a long time, and then we, as we figured it out for ourselves, then we started coaching clients to do it. And, and right, that’s one of the reasons why brand builders group only works with personal brands. Like if a company calls us and says, Hey, can you teach us something about brand strategy? It’s like, well, yeah, a lot of our strategies apply to companies, but we don’t work with any company. Zero. We work only and exclusively and solely with a an individual single person of helping that person become more well known. But then we vertically integrate that component. And as we’ve done that, and we’ve coached other people to do that, there’s like two, two of the biggest philosophies that, that we’ve realized. And, and you model this too, Michael, is the greatest form of marketing in the world is a changed life.
RV (20:56):
When you change the life of your customer, they will go tell other people and your customer force will become your sales force. And the story you just told us was exactly that, right? It started with like, one lawyer has a great experience, they give you referrals from a, the second thing that has really emerged for us in terms of monetization strategy is that really the key to making more money is to serve a more narrow audience in a deeper way. So it’s going, how can I serve? Instead of going, how can I reach more audience? It’s like, how can I serve the audience I have in a deeper way? That’s the fastest path to monetization, right? That’s not how you become famous, it’s how you become rich. It serve a more narrow niche in a deeper way. And it, the progression you described was just like so perfectly spot on because you’re just going, oh, well I solved that problem and now a new problem emerges, and so I’ll solve that problem for them. And now a new problem emerges. And it just seems like that’s been your, your whole progression, and this has happened freaking fast. You’re not even 10 years. So you’ve gone from zero to a hundred million dollar valuation in less than 10 years.
MM (22:09):
Yeah. Oh yeah.
RV (22:11):
That’s epic. I mean, just, just think about, okay, so for anybody listening right now, I just want you to think about where you were in your life 10 years ago, right? And, and for some of you that might seem, oh, I’m very close to what you’re doing now some of you, it might seem like a lifetime away, but if you were starting on zero this moment, and I said, look, 10 years from now, you could have a hundred million dollars business. Most people would go no way. That’s freaking impossible. It’s not impossible. It’s not only not impossible, it’s likely if you follow the strategies and you serve a community and you focus on transforming their life and you focus on serving them in a deeper way. And I just, I just love, I just love you. This, you’re just a perfect example, real life story of this.
RV (22:58):
So starting 10 years ago, what would you tell yourself? Like what do you wish you knew then that you know now? Because you clearly had an instinct for this. I mean, you know, like even though I’m saying you’re such a great model, this we’ve only just met you, like so you figured this out all on your own. Is there some things that if somebody was listening right now thinking about, okay, I want to be be where you are in 10 years, what, what are the things, what are the, what are like the three biggest things that you would tell them that you wish you would’ve known?
MM (23:34):
Yeah. Well, so I think the first thing, you know, as I’ve been thinking about this a lot is just that really determining whether you have the stomach for this, right? Meaning of just entrepreneurship in general. I try to actually do my best to dissuade people from doing this stuff. And if, and if they still wanna do it at the end, then I’m like, okay, that’s it. You, you have, you have what it takes, right? Meaning that it’s going to be a very difficult journey. It’s gonna be a difficult path. It’s gonna probably involve a lot of pain, but it’s absolutely worth it, you know, if you, if you stick it out. So that’s probably one of just being clear on like, okay, you know, is this something I’m wi willing to dedicate my life to go all in 24 7? I mean, I I will say like, I, I didn’t do it on my own, right? I, I had a lot of help. You know, my wife, she came from a management consulting background, you know, when she came into the business, I was very strong on, you know, on the sales and marketing front. But she laid the operational groundwork, which, which really enabled us to scale, right? And that’s probably one, but number two, I wish. So
RV (24:29):
Just on, so just on that real quick though, I’m so glad you said this because there’s so much so many people are enamored right now with being an entrepreneur and like, start a side hustle and make millions and fly a private jet, and like all the pictures on social media, the glamorous of like, be your own boss. Like, oh yeah, you don’t need to work nine to five. Like, your boss is an idiot. Like start your own thing. And it’s like, you don’t, there’s not, there’s no one’s telling the true story, which is like, you late nights and stress and like, you’re leveraging the house and you have cash flow, like, you know, worries. So I’m, I’m, I’m glad that you, I’m glad that you bring that up ’cause no one,
MM (25:07):
Yeah, well, I mean, up until about four years ago it was seven days a week, you know, 24 7, 365. Like my wife and I, we would come into the office Saturday and Sunday. I mean, you know, it, it wasn’t until like our kids were born and, you know, we had more of the, you know, the leadership team in place and, you know, we’d start to really build a foundation. But up until that point, especially the first five years, it was ramen noodles. It was, you know, wasn’t really taking a salary. And if I was, maybe it was like $25,000 a year. Mm-Hmm.
RV (25:53):
So, so it’s like five to six years of intensity though. I mean, like real straight up. Like you’re not, you know, flying a private jet and living on a yacht. And, and, and it, it’s, it’s like, and, and you say it’s worth it, but it’s like, I think people need to hear to go, you gotta be prepared for, for five years. You’re saying, in your case, five years of, of very intense pain. Pretty much
MM (26:22):
At least. Yeah, I mean at, at least for sure. You know, and, and, and again, everybody has their own path. You know, I, I think we were very, very ambitious in terms of our goals. We wanted to move at a very fast pace. We wanted to, you know, to see a lot of progress year over year for, you know, depending on someone’s lifestyle. I’ll say that what, what made it easier for us at least, was in, in me early on, is that I really didn’t have much to lose. Like, I, I wasn’t coming from, you know, a, a job where I was making good income. You know, I wasn’t driving a nice car, you know, the, the home that we lived in was a, you know, $107,000, you know, town home that we bought as a foreclosure, right? Like they just, you, you start, I didn’t have to give up a Mercedes and, you know, and I didn’t have to give up any type of lavish lifestyle. So that made it a little bit easier, especially in the, you know, in the early days. But, and then I think the other part of it is that only
RV (27:08):
Easier, only easier in the sense that you didn’t have to go backwards. And a lot of people Yeah. Not, not only are very, very many, not very many people are willing to endure the five years, but even fewer people are willing to go backwards from where they are for correct. Four or five years. Especially if they’ve already put in, you know, five or 10 or 20 years to get where they are. And it’d be like, I’m gonna go backwards and, and it’s gonna be even worse. So that’s, yeah. That’s, that’s, that’s powerful to know. What was the second thing?
MM (27:39):
Yeah, so I guess I was thinking about the, the two because I got, I got a good one. That’s the third one. But you know, the the second I, I look back and I wish I would’ve documented more, right? Oh, so in, in, in, in a number of ways. So one is I wish I would’ve taken more photos and I wish I would’ve taken more videos. ’cause You know, I I think back to, you know, some of these experiences and stories which, which have become, you know, such, you know, amazing learning lessons and have made it their, you know, their way into presentations and when we speak at our summits and so on. And, you know, I wasn’t really proud of what we had early on, so maybe that’s why I wasn’t taking photos. ’cause It wasn’t a lavish office and we didn’t have a huge team and, you know, it just didn’t look that impressive.
MM (28:13):
But I wish I did that. And then the other side of the documentation is just, just the systems and processes, right? It’s much easier to do that when you’re small than when you get big and there’s more complexity and things start to break down. And you, and you wish you, you had, here’s kind of the step-by-step process on how to do this. Or if somebody leaves, you know, being able to, you know, to train up and bring in another person. So I, you know, I would say that start documenting things, you know, both in terms of capturing those moments, but also in terms of processes early on, it makes it much easier to scale later. Mm-Hmm
RV (28:42):
Mm-Hmm. Yep. Yeah, that’s, that’s, that’s, that’s a good one. I mean, I think it’s, when you look at scaling a business, it’s people, processes and product. I mean, it’s like you have to have a great product. You gotta have processes documented and great people and processes is the one I think people don’t talk about, which ironically is the most controllable. Sometimes it’s hard to create a good product. Sometimes it’s hard to recruit and retain good people, but like, documenting your processes, like all of us are a hundred percent in control of it. And nobody ever does it
MM (29:21):
Yeah, so this is a big one, and I see this with a lot of our clients and our firms. And if I had to say like, what is the difference, the biggest difference between a six figure firm and a seven figure firm and an eight figure firm and a nine figure firm, it is the same thing across the board. And it really just comes down to perhaps the level of courage and the willingness to write the check and the willingness to invest. So, meaning that it’s one of the things that I think led to a lot of our, you know, our growth was that we just, it was being courageous. So I, I’ll give you an example. Back in, you know, in 2017, you know, we were, you know, still a very, very small company in the legal space. There were companies that had been around for 20 years and 30 years that were these great like, marketing agencies and consulting companies and so on.
MM (30:00):
And it’s like, and we were unknown, and I wanted to get attention, I wanted to get our name out there somehow. And we thought, okay, so similarly, like our clients were having a great experience with us. And we felt that, okay, well our clients probably know people like them. So people that are very similar in growth minded and entrepreneurial in nature. So what if we did some sort of referral program where they could refer other people to us? And I saw what these other referral programs were in our industry. It was like they were giving away like, you know, an iPad or an Amazon gift card. And I was like, well, that’s not crazy enough. So I had got this idea in my head, and once that started, never left was what if we gave a car away, like to our clients? And at the time it was like, well, what if we gave away a Tesla?
MM (30:39):
And this was in two, you know, in 2017. So people ask me, they’re like, well, how did you give away a Tesla? Well, I had like $80,000 to my name. The Tesla model s at the time was $77,000. I went to the Tesla dealership, I wrote them a check, and they gave me one. Right? So it’s, you know, wow. And, and, and I thought this would be brilliant, right? Like, I thought if we did this, it would get a ton of attention. Clients would start referring other clients to us, you know, because every time they’re referred, they would get a chance to win this Tesla. And as soon as we announced it, 30 days went by, we didn’t get a single referral. Hmm. Like nobody cared at all. And I, and my eyes started twitching because every day I drive up into the office and I parked it in front of the office and I was just thinking like, have I made one of the most massive mistakes ever?
MM (31:21):
Right? Like, of just pouring the savings into a car,
MM (31:59):
So this first one was in 2017, let’s see, we’re now in 2020, you know, four, so roughly what, seven years. And we have now given away, I believe 18 cars over the past seven years to our clients. And you know, in this year we, we will be giving away a cyber truck. But we’ve done everything from like Teslas to a Ferrari, to a Rolls Royce, to a gwa. And you know, I, I got our, our fair share of criticism when people say, well, you know, they give cars away or whatever, and, you know, I have to do that. And honestly, we wanted to make working with us an exciting experience, right? Just because legal traditionally is not known for a very engaging, you know, thing. Like, you know, when lawyers are coming to workshops or, you know, even just in general, the industry as a whole is very traditional.
MM (32:41):
Not a whole lot of innovation, not a whole lot of change. And we wanted to create this engaged community of people that were, you know, entrepreneurial, that were committed, that were wanting to really grow their firms. And we wanted to make it exciting to be a part of that. So if you, you know, if just by growing your firm, you can, you know, potentially win a, you know, a, a Tesla cyber truck or a Ferrari or something. Okay, that’s exciting. That’s not the primary reason to do it, but you gotta do something to stand out and differentiate. And we didn’t have the resources to compete against these massive companies. So that was I think the, the lesson here is just that you gotta be courageous. You gotta be willing to, to, you know, to make those investments and place those bets. And, and I find that those that play on defense of like, not, you know, trying not to lose, that’s a very, very difficult place to be in business.
MM (33:24):
And instead we went on the offense. And even when it didn’t work, at first it’s like, okay, well let’s figure it out, right? And let’s, you know, let’s adjust, let’s iterate, let’s adapt. And, and now it’s, it’s become, in some respects, one of the things that we’re known for. But, you know, that’s how we went from one car to over 18 cars. And that’s how eventually, you know, we had a weird experience at the, at the conference where we gave away a car. Like we, we didn’t control the experience ’cause it was another conference and it was like right after Super Bowl Sunday, it was gonna be this big announcement, but only seven people showed up. And when we called the name of the winner at this other legal conference, they weren’t even there, right? Like they were at home. And then I called ’em, he didn’t answer the phone. So it was at that moment that I said, never again are we gonna give away our grand prize at another conference? Which led us to starting our own. And then that went to, that’s
RV (34:06):
Why that was the catalyst for starting your own conference.
MM (34:08):
That was the catalyst. And then we ended up creating the largest legal conference in the entire legal industry that has 5,000 people attending it. And that, that was the one catalyst.
RV (34:16):
Oh my gosh, this is so, so crazy. So, so just real quick, they get, for every client they refer, they get their name and a drawing to win a car. And as simple as that. Exactly.
MM (34:27):
Yeah. Oh my gosh, that’s,
RV (34:29):
That’s so cool. Okay, so I wanna hear about the conference. Yeah, because the conference is a whole nother business. I mean, th that’s really gonna stick with me just in general, Michael, about just, it’s the courage to invest, right? Like you’re, you’re investing in coaching, you’re investing in team, you’re investing in technology. You’re clearly you, you had to hire staff to be able to start offering all of these other things you’re putting on, you know, doing this raffle with the car. And then one of the biggest investments y’all make is this conference that you do every year. And I’d like to hear about that because that is a, that’s a really exciting thing, but a scary thing. So, and it’s almost like a separate business. I mean, how many people came to the first conference? Where did you do it? And then how have you continued to courageously invest beyond that? Yeah,
MM (35:23):
So if, if you’ve ever been to a legal conference or any type of, I guess, professional services conference, they’re not known for their excitement. Like, meaning, usually what happens is it’s at, you know, in a dimming lit room, everybody’s on their laptops, on their phones, maybe there’s a speaker on stage, but no one’s paying attention. And generally the reason people go is it’s either at a destination like a, like a Vegas or Miami and you know, they’re gonna get, get drunk in network, right? But, but the conference is kind of like a, you know, a sidebar to what, what is actually taking place. And I’d go to enough of these, ’cause you know, I was speaking at, at the time, like 15 to 20 of these a year and I was like, you know what? I think we can do better, but I’m one of these people that’s like, okay, well if you think that, you know, prove it.
MM (36:02):
And you know, so when we did our first conference, my target was 200 people. I was like, if we could just get 200 people there. The first event that we did was in in 2018. And, but we ended up getting 500. But the approach that we took is I looked at other industries and I’d look at like Salesforce, like Dreamforce conference, and I saw what, you know, Tony Robbins was doing. And I was like, what if we did something that had, you know, great production in av, we got a DJ and then we got like great speakers from other industries. So like at our first conference we had like David Goggin speak and Chris Voss, and this was right before David Goggins, you know, his book even came out and before David was known and you know, and we had so many non-legal speakers ’cause you could see a lot of the legal speakers at other conferences, but I wanted ours to stand out.
MM (36:44):
So the first one we had, you know, 500 people attend that one. And it was either gonna go where people walked in and they’re like, what the hell is this? And walk right out. Or it was gonna be a huge hit. It was gonna be one or the other. ’cause It was just so different from any other type of legal conference. And people loved it. I mean it’s, it was unheard of at the time, at least with legal conferences, they have a full room at 7:00 PM when you’re, when your speakers speaking on, I think it was like a Thursday or Friday night, like usually conferences start to clear out like at least legal ones at like two or 3:00 PM And we had the full room, David Goggins was speaking seven o’clock, like not, you know, not a single person on their phones, not a single person on their laptops.
MM (37:18):
Like it was a truly engaging event. And then we continued to do them, you know, year after years they grew bigger. And in 2022 we ended up doing what I think is, I believe it’s the first legal conference in a football stadium. So we did it at Mercedes-Benz Stadium where the Falcons play, where they had the Super Bowl here in Atlanta. And we had 5,000 lawyers at that one. So we kinda went from 500 to the first one to 5,000 at the one in 2022. And now we’ve made the the events even more exclusive. So they’re, they’re now private events by invitation only. The one this year is, you know, is 3000 people, but you know, the production values continue to increase the quality of the speakers and the quality of the contents continue to improve. And it was really about creating a, a conference that was about not the practice of law, right?
MM (38:00):
‘Cause We’re not teaching lawyers how to practice law. Like they’ve gotta come in with that. But more so the business side of law, and especially at the time in 2018, most legal conferences were focusing on trial skills and not how do you grow your law firm? You know, like how do you hire the right people? What about culture? What about marketing and brand and those topics? And there’s a lot of just, most law firms were really struggling to grow their business. So I felt that there was a need for this and now they’re more common. But you know, as they started to catch up, as we start to see other, you know, businesses and law conferences, they still, and I still don’t understand why maybe they’ll hear it on this podcast. Maybe they’ll, you know, they’ll do it different in which case out root for them. But they still don’t go all in in terms of like the production value and the quality and the experience. And it’s just, it’s, it’s almost like, you know, they see the business of all topic, but the, but the experience is what I really think is a differentiator. Is,
RV (38:49):
Is, but those, okay, so, so on the one hand you’re like, yeah, experience, make it awesome, make it engaging. On the other hand you go, it’s fricking expensive. I mean, oh yeah. You’re, you’re having, you know, production crews and setups and tear downs and av and like, these speakers are not cheap, right? Like, how do you, how do you justify the cost of putting on these events and do you, like, do you lose money on them and you’re okay with it ’cause you sell the other stuff? Do you try to break even? Do you make a little, do you make a lot? Like what’s your, you know, mindset there around how you’re investing into these? Because it’s also and is a ton of time. I mean, you don’t just get 500 people to show up at an event without spending a lot of time like talking about it.
MM (39:34):
So I don’t know if I’ve shared this publicly before, but I will, I will tell you. So as an example, and this is also why I think this could only happen in a founder led business. So meaning that if, if I had to make this decision by committee, the answer would be hell no. Every single time. So as an example, that conference in 2022 at Mercedes-Benz Stadium, that was an $8 million conference. Like meaning that between, between the venue rental, the av, the food and beverage, the speakers all, and it was $8 million before anybody walked through the door. And in, as you know, in the event space, there’s no payment plans. These, these people want their money up front. So, and that is terrifying. But I’ll, I’ll tell you how I justify it. And, and also we don’t do sponsors, we don’t do exhibitors like that.
MM (40:15):
It is cut, you know, in some ways unheard of in, you know, in the legal industry because pretty much every conference you go to, there’s the massive exhibit hall, there’s the person who sponsors the wifi, there’s the person who sponsors the cups there. We don’t do that because again, we feel that those detract from the experience and we want it to be really honed in and focusing on like what is going to be most valuable to people. So them having to walk through an exhibit hall of one person pitching them legal funding, another one pitching them, you know, pay-per-click another per person pitching ’em something else we feel could hurt the experience even though we’ve been offered continuously. I mean, it’d be easy to monetize that because people would want to have a presence there. Totally. But the, the way that I justify it is that, you know, it’s kind of interesting in our model that I really believe that we have to walk our talk.
MM (40:57):
So in the sense that if we position ourselves as a law firm growth company, that helps other law firms grow and we’re saying, Hey, you’ve gotta make investments and you’ve gotta take risks. I believe that we have to lead by example. So doing something, you know, crazy like that is, is is a form of doing that. So it’s, it’s this kind of this idea that when people, you know, see someone do something, it means more than when someone tells you something. Right? And then just like seeing is believing, like, you know, we’re at this event I remember at Mercedes-Benz and we’re telling ’em to think big and I remember sharing with the team, I’m like, this wouldn’t work if we were at a tiny venue of like a, you know, like a, a holiday inn Yeah. Telling ’em to think big, right? Just, you know, it wouldn’t align.
MM (41:33):
I, so I will say that, you know, we have, we’ve invested tremendous amount of resources in the events. Some I I would say are really just brand drivers. Like, meaning that, you know, that event in 2022 we didn’t lose money on it, it was still profitable. So we, we generally see like people that come to the event, many that are not clients become clients or join the ecosystem or even existing clients, it’s, you know, in some ways it’s like a re-engagement event where they may, you know, choose to add on additional aspects of our ecosystem to their existing programs. So there is that component to it. But our first focus is how do we make this as valuable as possible to someone. The majority of people that attend the event don’t invest in anything, right? Like probably 80% or more. But it’s such a strong brand driver. Like I knew when we did that Mercedes-Benz event that it was just as important about the people who weren’t there as the ones that actually were there. And when you, when you see or hear someone who’s did you know, a legal conference in a football stadium, like you can hate my guts. Like you can absolutely, you could dislike me personally. You could not be a fan of Chris. That’s okay. But you gotta respect filling that room,
RV (42:33):
Uhhuh. So when you say, you said it’s just as important about who is not at the event as who is at the event and you’re just basically saying like the statement it makes to the rest of the industry. Yeah,
MM (42:45):
I mean you could say you’re, you’re a growth company or you’re a great marketing company and that’s one thing. But then if you get 5,000 people to fly out to Atlanta and show up in a room, I mean seeing is believing, right? Mm-Hmm
RV (43:19):
So you went from 520 18 to like 5,000. So was it like a steady increase?
MM (43:26):
Yeah, so we went from 500, the first one I believe we had a thousand at the next one. And the highest we went before that Mercedes-Benz event, I believe was 2000. And, and by the way, that I do not recommend a 5,000 person event. Like I don’t know if we’ll ever do that again. To some extent it was probably hubris and ego where like, I think the biggest legal conference at that point, we were already that at 2000 and most legal conferences, like big ones may have seven to 800 people. So I figured, okay, well let’s just do 5,000. Basically going from zero to 2000 was one thing. Going from two to five was an exponential, like just challenge of, of just ’cause ’cause at that point, y you, you know, we realized that there’s all the people that attend legal conferences and we were already capturing them.
MM (44:09):
We had the database, they had attended some of our events and maybe they attended other ones. But then after you get, you know, there’s a core audience that goes to legal conferences overall, like from one to the next and so on. But then, you know, once you, once you hit all of them, now you gotta reach people that have never been to a legal conference. Now you’ve gotta reach people that have, maybe have never even thought about the business of law and, and, you know, and where are they? Right? Some of them aren’t even consuming the, the same content. They’re not in the same places. They’re, you know, they’re very, very different audiences. And we had, you know, a huge delta to make up from like 2000 to 5,000 of getting people that have never been to anything like this.
RV (44:41):
Yeah. Yeah. It is fascinating stuff. This is so been so cool, Michael. I, I, I just, I just love it so much and it’s inspiring on so many levels and just shows you how it, this is a very, you know, real, it’s, it’s a very practical reality that’s available. If you do the things and you put in the work and you serve your audience in a deeper way, where do you want people to go? If, if they, if they are curious, I know you’ve got your book on Amazon that they can check out if they want to connect with you, where should we, where should they head?
MM (45:12):
Yeah, so the book is called The Game Changing Attorney. It’s on Amazon. There’s a podcast by the same name. If they’re interested in learning more about me, I’ve got actually a personal brand website, Michael mogul.com. Come on. Yes, sir. Or they can go to the crisp website, which is just crisp.co. And learn about that stuff. But I really appreciate this.
RV (45:29):
And Mogul is M-O-G-I-L-L, Michael mogul.com. Michael, thanks for this insight. And, you know, thanks for being courageous with your risks, man. I love, I love what you’re up to, and we want to, we want to encourage you and we’re learning from you. And we wish you all the best, my friend.
MM (45:49):
Thank you.
Ep 541: Self-Doubt vs. Self-Belief | Marshawn Evans Daniels Episode Recap
AJV (00:03):
The difference between self-doubt and self-belief. These are not clinical definitions. I didn’t use Wikipedia or pull out the Webster dictionary. These are AJ Vaden definitions. Self-Doubt is the inability to believe in yourself. Self-Belief is simply the ability to believe in yourself, right? So self-doubt is the inability to believe in yourself, where self-belief is the ability to believe in yourself. And I kind of wanna talk about this concept of how do we turn self-doubt into self-belief? And I would encourage that there is nothing tactical, that I am going to give you some sort of checklist or workbook or a list of you know, self, you know, affirmations or positive goal setting exercises. That’s not what I have for you. What I have for you today is a perspective shift. It’s a decided choice to believe and to also factually realize that the hardest things that you’ve been through that have likely caused yourself doubt are most likely the things that have the power to change someone else’s life.
AJV (01:23):
And I just wanted to sit with that for a second. I’m gonna repeat that. Is that the things in your life that have most likely created this disbelief in yourself, this unbelief in yourself, IE self-doubt. So the things that have created self-doubt are also simultaneously, most likely the exact same things that have the power to change someone else’s life. You see, the challenge with self-doubt is it gets you believing that the insecurities that we have whether it’s through traumatic experiences or words spoken over us, or words spoken to us, or failures those things force us to believe that somehow we’re not worthy of doing something bigger and better because we’ve had this failure. We, we were the victim of something. We we weren’t able to do something in a better light or a better way the first time. And it convinces us that somehow we don’t have the authority to help someone else because of that thing, right? And it could be a divorce, it could be a failed business. It, it could be the fact that you are not married. It could be the fact that you’ve never been an entrepreneur who knows what it is. I know that, you know, I have insecurities in my life from comparison, right? The, the simple act of comparison creates this, this inkling of somehow other people are better and more well
AJV (02:59):
Positioned, they’re more informed, have more expertise. And that’s a lie. It’s a lie because the things that have seemingly failed in my life are also the things that I am best and most well positioned to speak on, to coach people through to go, I completely understand where you are. I have been there before and this is how I overcame it. This is how I got out of it. The things that have the potential to create self-doubt are the exact same things that have the power to speak life into other people. And if we’re focused on our insecurities, it’s an act of just self-reflection. And, and not in a good way. It’s an act of selfishness, of self-centeredness to go, well, I’m, I’m only worried about me. How I will look, my ability to do this. Instead of going, I don’t care how I have to do this.
AJV (04:00):
I know that what I went through. There are other people out there going through the same thing. They just need someone who can relate to them, who ha who is on the other side of it. You don’t have to be well-spoken. You don’t have to have great frameworks or formulas to actually have the power to help someone else change their life. That is self-belief is believing in your own ability to help someone else. And when we let self-doubt creep in, what it really ultimately does is it puts us into hiding. And it it disallows us from doing the thing that we actually wanna do. We want to help people. We want to serve people, but we’ve got this self-doubt thing creeping in because we’re comparing ourselves or we’re reflecting all the things that haven’t worked. We’re reflecting on all the failures, and we’re forgetting that the things that were the failures are the things that people need to hear the most.
AJV (04:59):
Nobody wants to hear about all of your wi your wins and your victories and successes. Those are important for credibility. But that’s not what makes you personable. That’s not what makes you relatable. What makes you relatable is knowing that you went through the fire and you made it through, right? That you sunk to the bottom and made it back up to the top. That’s what people need to know. They need to know that you know what it’s like to have been at the depths of the sea and you know how to swim back to shore, right? That is the, that is the, the special and unique part about overcoming self-doubt, which is realizing the things that you’re the most insecure about are the things that have the power to speak life and into other people if we just bring them to light. But if we allow them to remain in this area of self-doubt, IE hiding, then it ref, it literally creates this, this curtain, this, this impossibility of
AJV (05:56):
Our ability to help impact other people. And so I would just encourage you to lean into the things that are seemingly at the core of your self-doubt and go, no, those are the things. Those are actually the things that people wanna know. Those are the things that actually will draw people to you. Those are the things that people need help with. And when they know that you’ve been through them, then they will also believe that you can help them through them. It’s a perspective shift of going, what I went through is not what makes me unworthy, it’s what equips me to be the perfect candidate to help the next person. So is it gonna be self-doubt or self-Belief one has the power to keep you in hiding. The other one has the power to bring life into others around you. So two self-belief.