Author: AJ Vaden

Ep 619: From $25 to $1 Million a Month: The Marketing Machine Behind a $300M Exit with Lee Pepper

Right. And we didn’t, we didn’t write it all day one. It was a living document that we [00:49:45] added to every month. Right. And that, and the same thing with technology. We had a, a, a very [00:49:50] detailed technology plan, and I think that’s where that came out of because being a former CIO and working for Ross per, [00:49:55] you know, we were very, everything had to be very well documented ’cause we worked a lot with banking and [00:50:00] healthcare.

And so the same thing if your marketing team is not. Willing to document what they’re [00:50:05] doing and it can be readable. Or in a presentation you have a problem. Hmm. Right, because it should be [00:50:10] accessible, right? Because you want to have things that when somebody leaves to go and [00:50:15] pursue other opportunities or greener pastures like that, knowledge just doesn’t go away.

And like, you wonder, oh, what [00:50:20] happened to all that testing we did last year? Well, I don’t know what happened to it. Like, you don’t wanna lose that. Mm-hmm. Like, it’s, it’s, [00:50:25] it’s valuable. And I think that was one of the things that helped us, A lot of people say [00:50:30] that when they, when we sold foundations, uh, what we really sold was, was the marketing engine [00:50:35] because it was a, a revenue, it was so much revenue generating.

Both: Mm-hmm. Yeah. [00:50:40] Thank you for this because I think you make what you talk about in [00:50:45] Never outmatched and the things you’re talking about today. It makes marketing about [00:50:50] data, documentation, and I would say predictability. Mm-hmm. It’s [00:50:55] all about going, what levers do we need to push and pull on? And we know exactly [00:51:00] when that mm-hmm.

If that, if we do that, then this is the outcome. Yes. And once you figure out that [00:51:05] equation. Yeah. There’s, there’s literally no limit to how far you can scale. [00:51:10] Absolutely. ’cause you’re just constantly tweaking and testing and it’s like, you don’t start out spending a million dollars a month. Right. [00:51:15] But you, and you, you might go a million dollars a month.

I remember when you said that, where you spend a million dollars a month. [00:51:20] I was like, like, I was like a million dollars a month on, on ads. But you go, [00:51:25] but you start with a hundred dollars a month. Mm-hmm. And you tweak it. Yeah. And [00:51:30] you test it, and you track it, and you document it, and you optimize it. And then you tweak it, and then it’s like [00:51:35] that a hundred becomes 500 and that becomes 1,010 thousand and 30.

And then. It’s a million dollars a [00:51:40] month and you go, of course nobody can compete with us. Yeah. We’re buying all the [00:51:45] traffic. Yes, we’re buying all the prospects and I think it really demystifies [00:51:50] marketing for everybody. Lee

Lee Pepper: Roy, the, the, the 2006 when I had left Perot and [00:51:55] gone to work for, pass along a digital music company that was starting up here in Nashville.

You know what our daily [00:52:00] paid search budget was back then? Mm. $25. Nice. And we were like, [00:52:05] oh, let’s don’t break the bank. You know? And it’s, it’s just funny how we, when you, when you mentioned the million dollars, I mean, [00:52:10] yeah. We got to a point where we were spending a million dollars a month and how do you go from $25 to a million?

[00:52:15] I mean, you know, it’s, it, you, you do it over time. Yeah. You know, and, and you get your, and you get the, the [00:52:20] expertise. You’re

Both: not guessing, right. You’re not just going, let’s throw a million and see what happens. Yeah,

Lee Pepper: absolutely. [00:52:25] Absolutely.

Both: Awesome. Well go get the book. Okay. Never Outmatched is the book. Uh, follow my [00:52:30] friend Lee Pepper.

He is a sage wis piece of wisdom and advice on all of these [00:52:35] things. Um, so make sure you follow him and check him out. We’ll put links to all that in the show notes. If you haven’t [00:52:40] requested a call with our team, this is the level of sophistication that we want to take you to with your personal [00:52:45] brand. We want to, we want you to know that.

Ep 618: How AI Will Affect the Future of Marketing for Small Businesses with Sara Nay

Rory: [00:00:35] Well, if you’ve been sleeping in a cave for the last two years, you’ve missed that. The entire world is [00:00:40] talking about marketing and particularly AI in marketing, and [00:00:45] how is AI gonna affect the future of marketing for small businesses? That is what we’re [00:00:50] gonna talk about today, and we’re gonna talk about that topic with somebody who [00:00:55] is the daughter of a really good friend of mine that I’ve had for a lot of years.

So you’re about to meet. [00:01:00] Sarah Nay. Uh, she is the CEO of Duct Tape Marketing Group. So [00:01:05] if you’ve ever heard of Duct Tape Marketing, that’s John Jantz, who we’ve had on this show before. [00:01:10] A couple times I’ve been on his show. Uh, and Sarah has worked in that business for [00:01:15] well over a decade. She took over, uh, as CEO of that business, like [00:01:20] a year and some change ago.

She knows this world and she [00:01:25] also has not only lived it and breathed it as they run their agency and they help small businesses, [00:01:30] she also released a book called Unchained, um, which is all about breaking free [00:01:35] from broken marketing models. And we’re gonna talk about that today. We’re gonna talk [00:01:40] about how marketing is changing for small businesses.

How does AI come into [00:01:45] that? And just everything you need to know to drive more leads for your business. So Sarah, [00:01:50] welcome to the show. It’s great to have you. Thanks.

Sara Nay: Yeah, thanks for having me on Rory.

Rory: So, um, [00:01:55] I wanna just dive in, right on the topic of, of ai. I know that [00:02:00] you’ve worked, you know, as a CMO with fractional CMOs, [00:02:05] um, but like, you know, I wanna ask you about the subtitle of the book.

So [00:02:10] the book, again, Unchained, but the subtitle I really love breaking free from Broken [00:02:15] Marketing Models. So, what are broken marketing models? [00:02:20] Why do you use that? Or like what are some of the broken marketing models that you see [00:02:25] small businesses doing today?

Sara Nay: Yeah, of course. And this comes from, as you said earlier, I’ve [00:02:30] lived the agency world for about 16 years now.

And so I’ve seen a lot of challenges [00:02:35] in the agency space, both on the agency side of things and also the small [00:02:40] business side of things as well. And one of the key things that I see broken in the [00:02:45] agency model or the outsourcing model is there’s a lot of small businesses [00:02:50] that get into business ’cause they’re passionate about.

A topic or a service or a product or whatever [00:02:55] it might be. And then all of a sudden they have to learn how to market their business. [00:03:00] And so either they’re forced to figure it out themselves, and so now they’re serving as the founder [00:03:05] and the CMO of their business. Or in a lot of cases, they end up just [00:03:10] outsourcing or delegating their marketing to outside partners as they’re in growth mode.[00:03:15]

And so where I see a lot of small businesses struggle is they out. Source their control. [00:03:20] And so all of a sudden they bring in an agency or a contractor and they say, okay, run my marketing, [00:03:25] we’ll pay you every month. We’ll have no idea what you’re doing and we hope that you get us some results. And they [00:03:30] keep paying over time.

Hmm. And there’s a lot of challenges in that and I’ve seen it as [00:03:35] extreme as, you know, companies outsourcing their marketing to an agency and the agency owns their [00:03:40] website, URL domain, all hosting all of the things. And so when they part ways, the company then [00:03:45] loses. S their biggest asset, biggest marketing asset, which is their website.

[00:03:50] And so the book is all about how can small businesses. Take ownership and [00:03:55] control of their marketing. And I’m not saying outsourcing is all [00:04:00] bad, um, but outsourcing to the right relationships is important. And so starting with [00:04:05] creating the business strategy, the marketing strategy, and then answering the question of who can get [00:04:10] this done?

And if you are bringing in outside solutions to get the work done, thinking of [00:04:15] them as a partnership, working together as a team, versus simply [00:04:20] delegating and having no idea what’s being done.

Rory: Mm-hmm. I, I recently, uh, [00:04:25] I heard someone say this quote and it was, uh, not like a famous thought [00:04:30] leader. It was someone that I’m actually in a mastermind with, and she said, my entire [00:04:35] goal is to insource [00:04:40] understanding, but outsource execution.

And it’s probably my, it’s my [00:04:45] favorite new quote. This is definitely my favorite new quote that I have heard [00:04:50] in like the last year is I want to insource understanding, but I want to outsource [00:04:55] execution. Um, so what [00:05:00] I’ll, I’ll, I’ll, I’ll ask you as an agency owner who, yeah, you know, [00:05:05] many companies do outsource some of their, their execution and some of their stuff to [00:05:10] you.

What are the things that you think a small business [00:05:15] owner can do and should be doing to hold their agency accountable? Right, [00:05:20] so I, I think you said like the wrong thing to do is just like to spray and [00:05:25] pray where you’re like, here’s some money. Like, solve this problem like. That’s not how it works, but [00:05:30] what are the kind of like metrics or reports or check-ins or, [00:05:35] uh, touch base points or, you know, call it, you know, internal [00:05:40] controls that somebody should install if you run a small business but you, you’re [00:05:45] working with outside marketing support.

Sara Nay: Yeah. I’m gonna take it even a step back further [00:05:50] before I get to that point. It really comes down to creating the business [00:05:55] strategy first, and then thinking about the marketing support from there, because that’s a key piece [00:06:00] where when someone brings in an agency or an outsource solution and they’re relying on that [00:06:05] agency to tell them what to do or to get the work done, you’re playing a bit of a [00:06:10] guessing game.

And so as the business. As the business owner, you should take some time to create an [00:06:15] overall business strategy to then help guide your marketing team or support in. And [00:06:20] so that’s things like your mission, your vision, your values, your current revenue, where you wanna [00:06:25] be in one year and three years from now.

Because all of that information is [00:06:30] important to then be able to say. Okay, now let’s think marketing strategy. And [00:06:35] so let’s say you, you’re not a CMO, you’re a business owner and you need help with creating the marketing [00:06:40] strategy. Then when you’re bringing someone in to help you, you wanna look for someone that is [00:06:45] very strategic on the front end.

And so they’re creating an overall marketing strategy and plan [00:06:50] based on research, identifying things like your ideal client and your core message [00:06:55] and your customer journey, and your biggest growth priorities. And then you can start thinking about. [00:07:00] Tactics. And so those are the components that should go into a marketing strategy.

Once that’s [00:07:05] created, you’ll, you’ll have a better understanding of what needs to be done in order [00:07:10] to move the needle and also who needs to do the work. And so [00:07:15] then you can start thinking about who, um, is actually gonna help us market or. Execute [00:07:20] on this marketing plan. Is it humans or is it ai? Depends on the tasks.

[00:07:25] Both are great solutions, but where I see a lot of businesses miss is they go straight into we’re [00:07:30] gonna bring the who the people in without actually thinking about what are we trying to [00:07:35] accomplish from a business or marketing perspective. So you have to do that work. First, and then let’s say you [00:07:40] identify, okay, we’re gonna work with an agency.

The things you wanna look for is the [00:07:45] fact that the edu, the agency is willing to educate you along the way. The fact that they’re willing to [00:07:50] communicate with you along the way, the fact that they’re transparent in the work that they’re doing. [00:07:55] Because, you know, when we work with clients as an agency, our goal is to set them up for success.

[00:08:00] Beyond working together. And so when they come and work with us, we’re teaching them why we’re [00:08:05] doing marketing strategy and why we’re doing the tactics that we’re doing. We’re teaching them what’s gonna [00:08:10] determine if these things are successful or not. So we can decide if we should keep doing these things [00:08:15] or move on to something new.

And so really our goal is to set them up to be better than when we [00:08:20] came along. And that way we’re really a, a. Advisor, we’re a [00:08:25] partner and we’re not just someone that’s, Hey, we’re gonna do all these things behind the scenes and show [00:08:30] you these fancy reports that you’re not even gonna understand. Because in those relationships and scenarios, [00:08:35] you’re in a worse case situation when you part ways than when you began.

Rory: Mm-hmm. So, [00:08:40] okay. So hot take here. In a world of ai, what matters more [00:08:45] strategy or tactics?

Sara Nay: In the world of AI strategy, I [00:08:50] still absolutely say, um, a lot of, I see a lot of businesses bringing in [00:08:55] AI tools and solutions right now without doing the strategic work on the [00:09:00] front end. And so now all of a sudden you just have all these tools that aren’t working toward, [00:09:05] towards the goal and that haven’t been trained properly on the front end.

And so it’s [00:09:10] confusing. It’s creating noise. It’s. Costly, like all of the things. And so [00:09:15] I absolutely recommend taking a step back and doing that deep work in terms of what you’re trying to [00:09:20] accomplish and who’s on your team, and then analyzing, okay, what AI systems can we build below [00:09:25] them to elevate our team members?

And then once you identify what tools [00:09:30] they are, you can then say, how do we need to train these tools on the front end with our [00:09:35] company, our vision, our mission, our ideal clients, our messaging, our stories. [00:09:40] And then once the tools are trained, then you need to put systems and processes in place to [00:09:45] help your humans all use the tools consistently moving forward.

And so, [00:09:50] absolutely, I still argue strategy is more important or is the [00:09:55] important piece. That guides the tactics and where a lot of people miss is they start with the [00:10:00] tactics and forget about the strategy on the front end.

Rory: Yeah. And we, we, we often get, [00:10:05] people will ask us the question like, what’s the right technology tool to use?

And they’re like, well, this CRM is better, or [00:10:10] that email tool is better, or this one has this thing. And we, and we always telling them like, guys. [00:10:15] Strategy is much more important than technology. Like all [00:10:20] technology sucks and all of it can be useful, but you have to nail the, the, the strategy. [00:10:25] The other thing that I’ve noticed, both in our business internally, like as an [00:10:30] entrepreneur and then in our clients, is to go chaos [00:10:35] multiplied by speed is exponentially more chaos.[00:10:40]

Like, it, it, it doesn’t, it doesn’t, it, it, it helps you zero. To [00:10:45] have complete chaos and then multiply it by AI and add speed, like it does [00:10:50] that, that makes it worse. Like you’re just going faster in the wrong direction. Yes. You’re, [00:10:55] you’re, you’re, you’re fastly, if that’s the word, fastly, [00:11:00] creating much more mess.

Um, so I, I, I noticed that you talked about [00:11:05] that and, uh, I, I just couldn’t, I, I so emphatically agree with you [00:11:10] that it’s just like, it’s not the tactics, like it’s all about, it’s all about [00:11:15] strategy. Um, one of the things that you said in that last answer, which I also really [00:11:20] love and I think is, um, a beautiful part of the future [00:11:25] that not enough people are talking about.

Is the [00:11:30] symbiotic relationship between humans and ai? It seems like so much of what we’re hearing is like [00:11:35] AI’s gonna replace jobs and people are gonna be jobless, or people are like, no. All that matters is [00:11:40] like human connection and authenticity and no one wants your fake AI crap. Right? Mm-hmm. And [00:11:45] I think, you know, I really think the magic is going to be the balance.

[00:11:50] Just like, you know, you can’t automate all of your email marketing with no human oversight or all your [00:11:55] social media without it, or all of your podcasts or video production, like, um, so talk to me [00:12:00] about, like you said, how do we create these two, how do we create the strategy, then create [00:12:05] the tools, and then create the systems and processes in place to help your humans?

What do you [00:12:10] see as that relationship between how humans and AI interact [00:12:15] specifically in the context of marketing for small businesses? [00:12:20]

Sara Nay: It’s a great point. Someone actually asked me on LinkedIn today, what tasks are you [00:12:25] using AI for? And I’m like, almost everything, but it’s because I’m using it as an assisted [00:12:30] approach.

Like I’m still layering on the human components and everything that I’m doing, [00:12:35] but I’m able to work at a higher level because I’m using AI as this. Assistant right now, [00:12:40] and so it’s a good point that you made. But I have an exercise that I talk about in the book, um, as well, which [00:12:45] we went through with our whole entire team, where, starting with myself, where essentially what I [00:12:50] did initially is wrote down all of the things that I do on a regular basis.

So. Skills, [00:12:55] tasks, like everything that I’m doing consistently. And then went through an exercise where basically [00:13:00] of everything on that list identified if those things are increasing in value because of [00:13:05] AI or, or they’re human based, um, if they’re staying stable or if they’re decreasing in [00:13:10] value because of ai, especially in the marketing space, there’s a lot of conversation about [00:13:15] that.

And then once you identify what’s. Staying stable or decreasing, then you can look at [00:13:20] what AI platforms or solutions should I bring in to help me with those things [00:13:25] so I can spend more time on the areas that are increasing in value. [00:13:30] And so it was a really great exercise for me to go through just to start identifying like, where [00:13:35] should I spend most of my time moving forward, and where should I delegate?

But then I also took that [00:13:40] exercise to our team as well because we’ve been talking to our team a lot about AI over the last few years, [00:13:45] as many have, and on my team, you know, some people are completely bought in, some people are a little bit [00:13:50] hesitant. There’s always this feeling of are we gonna be let go?

Are they just asking me to [00:13:55] be more productive and less time, even though, you know, we’ve been reassuring them all along, like [00:14:00] we’re using AI to elevate you all and ourselves. And so I had the team go through the [00:14:05] exercise, um, and it really helped everyone get bought in on we’re not bringing in these [00:14:10] AI solutions again to replace us all.

We’re bringing it in to help us do [00:14:15] better work. And I think if you can have that mindset shift on your team, you’re [00:14:20] gonna be able to be a lot more productive and bringing in different solutions.

Rory: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I [00:14:25] love that. I mean, it’s interesting because there is this. Sort of [00:14:30] like fantasy or dream that AI is gonna help us all get our work done [00:14:35] faster and like it won’t be so crazy and chaotic.

But there’s a [00:14:40] big part of me that wonders if it’s just like, it’s just gonna help us do more, [00:14:45] which is only gonna speed things up and, and create, create more work. Um, [00:14:50] but. Either way. I think it’s like humans are a necessary part of the [00:14:55] future, right? Like, there, there, there, there’s, there’s, there’s always some human level of oversight and, [00:15:00] and engagement.

Um, what, what are some of the ai what, what are some of [00:15:05] your favorite AI use cases right now? And let’s talk about marketing specific of [00:15:10] going, okay. Here are either some tools or maybe it’s not so much the tool, it [00:15:15] doesn’t have to be like a tool, but like, here is a, here is a way that we’re using AI [00:15:20] right now.

To increase, you know, as you say, do better [00:15:25] work. Um, yeah, in the marketing space.

Sara Nay: Yeah, so just to give you a [00:15:30] specific example, we’ve been doing an engagement for our clients for years called Strategy First, which is [00:15:35] 45 day engagement, where we create a marketing strategy before we think about execution.

[00:15:40] And so now in the age of ai, we are still delivering strategy first [00:15:45] over a 45 day period. And so it didn’t necessarily speed up what we’re [00:15:50] doing, but we have so much more information now available to help [00:15:55] us do better strategic work than we had. Without ai. And so for example, [00:16:00] some of the things we do is we do competitive research for our clients as part of the [00:16:05] process.

Before ai, we were doing, you know, there’s different tools you could use for some like SEO [00:16:10] specific research, but we were doing a lot of manual research looking at their websites and [00:16:15] social profiles and they had a hundred reviews online. We’d go read all the reviews and, and [00:16:20] look for themes. And now that seems crazy now that we have different tools available to us.

So now [00:16:25] in that specific. Case like we use, we still go out and look at their websites and we [00:16:30] still go out and look at their profiles because that’s the human piece that you still need to confirm on. But we’re able to [00:16:35] pull deep research reports in a tool like chat, GBT, and have a 35 page document [00:16:40] in 10 minutes that summarizes all the competitors and how they’re different than our client [00:16:45] and our opportunities to compete.

Um, if, you know, again, they have a hundred reviews [00:16:50] online, we can dump all of that into Che GBT and in seconds. Have an analysis of the [00:16:55] themes, and so it’s, it’s allowed us to have more information to [00:17:00] help guide strategic decisions than we’ve ever had before. But then [00:17:05] also when you go into the execution side of marketing, you know, gone are the [00:17:10] days where you need to have.

A content writer writing everything from scratch or a social [00:17:15] media specialist creating everything from scratch, because if you take the time to create the marketing [00:17:20] strategy and train something like chat GBT on that information. Now you can use chat GT [00:17:25] by human and on the front end and human on the back end where you’re having chat gt.

[00:17:30] You do a deep research report to write a blog outline, to write the first draft [00:17:35] of a blog post. But then as a human, you’re editing it, finalizing it, [00:17:40] publishing it, getting across the finish line. And I think that’s really the value of. [00:17:45] AI is, it’s helping move a lot of executors, from executors to [00:17:50] essentially managers in a sense where now they’re managing AI platforms [00:17:55] versus being in the weeds and doing all of the steps themselves.

Rory: Mm-hmm. Yeah, [00:18:00] no, I love that. And the way that you described it is also how I’m thinking about it. It’s like. [00:18:05] Basically, AI is my assistant. Mm-hmm. That just does a bunch of the [00:18:10] grunt work, a bunch of the middle work, a bunch of the like tedious work, whether [00:18:15] it’s researching, consolidating, summarizing.

Together, but it’s still [00:18:20] not really doing the thinking because you have to still tell it how to think. Like you still have to teach [00:18:25] it how to think in the way you want it to think. Uh, which, you [00:18:30] know, hopefully is the part of what still makes, you know, human insight and thought leadership sort of valuable.[00:18:35]

What, what are some of the ways that you think people are doing marketing wrong right [00:18:40] now with ai? Like, um, are there, are there some specific tactical [00:18:45] mistakes or? Even philosophical mistakes or [00:18:50] procedural mistakes that you see small businesses doing with AI that they really [00:18:55] shouldn’t be doing.

Sara Nay: Yeah, I mean, just look at LinkedIn and you can see a series of posts and [00:19:00] comments that are all AI generated, obviously, and generic.

I think the, you know, the [00:19:05] biggest struggle with small businesses is not knowing how to train these tools effectively to [00:19:10] create their unique voice out of the tools. And so a lot of people are just creating. [00:19:15] Volume of content that’s generic and that is not speaking to their ideal clients [00:19:20] directly and is not building trust and authenticity.

And so I think those, [00:19:25] and I talk about that in unchanged, like guiding people through your customer journey, understanding [00:19:30] them deeply, speaking them to, to them directly. Building trust along the way. I think that. [00:19:35] Always been important in marketing, but people are looking for companies that are real [00:19:40] and that are human, and that will speak to them and interact with them because all, a lot of [00:19:45] stuff is being automated these days.

And so, you know, again, where I see small businesses [00:19:50] missing is even either they’re leaning into AI and doing generic stuff within ai [00:19:55] or they’re leaning into it too heavily and they’re, they’re forgetting about that commun that, [00:20:00] that human element that needs to be in combination with ai.

Rory: Yeah, it’s sort of ironic because I [00:20:05] feel like that there’s been this sort of pendulum swing [00:20:10] where you go.

It used to be all offline, human, [00:20:15] face-to-face, like, you know, handshake relationship. Everything became digital and it was like, oh, who [00:20:20] can automate stuff and get me faster responses, response time and like, you know, more [00:20:25] accessible information and da, da da. But then it became so automated that it was like, oh my gosh, like I’m on [00:20:30] everybody’s automated newsletter and all this stuff.

And it seems like the pendulum was [00:20:35] already swinging back to human before AI showed up. [00:20:40] And. Ironically, you know, I, I think [00:20:45] it’s, it’s, it feels ironic to me because it seems like [00:20:50] humanness is our uniqueness. Like humanness is the new [00:20:55] uniqueness of going like. That’s what people already want it. And now like you’re saying, [00:21:00] AI is just exploding that out even more with more like garbage content and, [00:21:05] and that, do you agree with that or think about that differently?

Or [00:21:10] how, how, what do you think?

Sara Nay: Yeah, I absolutely agree with you. I think people are getting sick with [00:21:15] the automation and the perfectly polished content and like [00:21:20] the visuals people are putting out. I mean, I think really people connect with other humans, even if they’re [00:21:25] buying from a business. And so the more that you can show your unique selves [00:21:30] and tell your unique stories, people are gonna be attracted to that more than some [00:21:35] perfectly polished funnel or campaign.

I, I believe, and I, I agree with you, I was, we were [00:21:40] starting to see that shift swing back, and I think that it’s just sped up the direction that it’s [00:21:45] going.

Rory: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Do you, uh, the storytelling part is interesting. Do you [00:21:50] think that clients. Like, let’s take businesses. I mean, we, we, we serve [00:21:55] personal brands and, and that’s mostly who’s listening.

I think if you’re a personal brand, it’s like a more [00:22:00] obvious answer that you’ve gotta share your personal story. But if you’re working with small businesses [00:22:05] or even you guys work with some big businesses as well, do you encourage, like [00:22:10] executives, even let’s say it’s not a personal brand, let’s say it’s like a company, there’s a [00:22:15] corporate brand.

Are you encouraging executives and [00:22:20] professionals to share? More of their personality, more of their story, [00:22:25] or is it still more just like the company brand, the company logo, the [00:22:30] company tone of voice, or like how are you guys navigating that balance right now? [00:22:35]

Sara Nay: I mean, we absolutely encourage both. Like the company needs to have its own voice and brand and way it’s [00:22:40] put out there.

But also, as I said, you know, human people wanna buy from humans even if they’re buying from a [00:22:45] business. And so we absolutely encourage at least one person being the [00:22:50] spokesperson essentially for. For the company and putting themselves out there, um, to, to represent [00:22:55] the company because again, people, they buy from certain brands, but in a lot of [00:23:00] well-known brands.

But in a lot of cases, they wanna connect with other humans and they wanna trust other [00:23:05] humans. Um, I was actually at a mastermind group. Uh, event that I go to, uh, last week [00:23:10] and there was a speaker there that did a presentation and his whole topic was every single [00:23:15] small business needs an influencer or a spokesperson representing them right [00:23:20] now.

Hmm. And so I absolutely agree with a lot of what he shared, and it’s what we’ve been working on with our [00:23:25] clients and, and teaching over the years as.

Rory: That’s cool. Yeah, that’s, it’s [00:23:30] interesting. It’s, it is like, uh, definitely we trust people and it’s, you know, some of these AI [00:23:35] clones are fascinating to me because it’s like there are people [00:23:40] following these v uh, comp.

There’s a, there’s a lot of social media profiles that are growing that are [00:23:45] completely fake. Yeah. Like they, they, they are somehow generating [00:23:50] legitimate followership. But there’s a part of me that feels very much like the business world and the [00:23:55] corporate world is like. Always going to go, I want the real person.

I want a, I want a real [00:24:00] human, I want to know who I’m doing business with. Like, I don’t want this perfectly [00:24:05] airbrushed, like AI generated avatar talking to me. So [00:24:10] I’m, I’m very curious to see how that plays out.

Sara Nay: Yeah, I agree. I was actually recording a training [00:24:15] for our group yesterday, a training video, and I like stumbled over a sentence and I’m like, and I’m not gonna edit [00:24:20] that out ’cause I’m a human and I make mistakes.

And I kept going.

Rory: Great. So hopefully we’re

Sara Nay: [00:24:25] right here.

Rory: That’s great. That’s a great line to start using. Like, I’m not even editing [00:24:30] that out ’cause I’m a real human.

Sara Nay: Yeah,

Rory: that’s, that’s, that’s cute. Well, uh, this is [00:24:35] awesome Sarah. So where, where do you want people to go? Uh, again, the book is called Unchained.

Where do you [00:24:40] want people to go to get to get a, to grab a copy of the book if they wanna learn more?

Sara Nay: Absolutely, the book [00:24:45] is on Amazon, and then the book website is unchained model.com. And then our company [00:24:50] website as well is just duct tape marketing.com.

Rory: Really cool. Um, well thank you [00:24:55] for this chitter chatter.

Congratulations on taking over the business. You guys have had such a great brand over the years. [00:25:00] Uh, we’ve enjoyed a, a great relationship with y’all and, um, excited to see what the [00:25:05] future holds. So best of luck to you and, uh, here’s, here’s to stay in human. [00:25:10]

Sara Nay: Awesome. Thank you.

Ep 617: One Rich Relationship Is Worth More Than 100 Casual Connections with Selena Soo

Welcome to the Influential Personal Brand [00:00:10] podcast. This is the place where we help mission-driven messengers, just like you [00:00:15] learn how to build and monetize your personal brand. My name is Rory Vaden [00:00:20] and I’m the co-founder of Brand Builders Group, a hall of Fame speaker, and New York Times [00:00:25] bestselling author.

And this show is to help experts learn how to become more [00:00:30] wealthy and well-known. I know you’re gonna love it. Thanks for being here. Let’s get started. [00:00:35] One of the things that I believe firmly is that relationships are the [00:00:40] irrefutable accelerant to success. And I think a lot of people think [00:00:45] they’re good at relationships when they really are not.

And today you’re going to hear from [00:00:50] one of my good friends, uh, Selena Sue, and she is now a USA today [00:00:55] national bestselling author of this book, rich Relationships. She is also a [00:01:00] multis seven figure entrepreneur. She’s done many multi six figure and seven figure launches. [00:01:05] She’s worked with a lot of the biggest personal brands, uh, in the world.

Uh, she is featured [00:01:10] regularly in major news media outlets. She also gets a lot of her friends and clients [00:01:15] into major news media outlets and on stages and in front of audiences that they need to meet. And [00:01:20] this book teaches you exactly how to build meaningful relationships, deep [00:01:25] relationships, not just casual networking.

So we’re gonna talk about how you can do that to [00:01:30] get more speaking engagements, to get more consulting, coaching clients, more uh, clients for your [00:01:35] practice, for your advisory business. And we’re gonna do it authentically and genuinely with my [00:01:40] friend Selena Sue, welcome to the show friend.

Selena: Thank you for having me.

Rory: Yeah, totally. [00:01:45] So, um, I wanna talk about, I wanna start with the six circles. Okay. So you have a concept [00:01:50] in here about the six circles, um, and then actually there’s the six and five. [00:01:55] And you also talk about the mentors that everybody, or the relationships that everyone needs to have. So. [00:02:00] Pick one of those and let’s dive into those two frameworks.

Selena: Yeah, I would love to. So first, [00:02:05] I just wanna begin by defining what a rich relationship is. Okay? So a rich relationship is [00:02:10] one that brings financial abundance to your life. Mm. They’re with people who want to help you reach your [00:02:15] goals and dreams faster. They’re connected to your goals and dreams. And then last but not least, these are healthy relationships.[00:02:20]

They’re supportive. They’re people who inspire you. And so if you find yourself in a relationship with someone [00:02:25] where you don’t feel. Safe or you feel like they don’t have your best interests at heart, but they’re powerful and [00:02:30] influential. That is not a rich relationship.

Rory: Mm.

Selena: So just kind of starting there.

So it’s gotta be

Rory: like mutual, you gotta [00:02:35] feel safe and it, and you’re saying it’s, it’s specifically financial. Yeah. It’s

Selena: a relationship that can [00:02:40] create abundance for you. But there’s different kinds of abundance. Right. And sometimes it. Direct and [00:02:45] sometimes indirect. So if we look at, for example, the five rich relationships that you need to have.

Yeah.

Rory: So [00:02:50] this is what I was asking you about. Let’s start with there. Yeah.

Selena: So one, you need to have mentors, right? Mm-hmm. To help you [00:02:55] reach your goals and dreams faster. Right? They can shortcut things for you. Um, and then you also need [00:03:00] to have supportive peers so you don’t feel alone in your journey. Um, then I [00:03:05] also believe that everybody should have promoters in their corner.

So promoters could be referral [00:03:10] partners or affiliate partners who directly send business to you. Um, or they could be media or [00:03:15] other people who are singing your praises out in the world.

Rory: Mm-hmm.

Selena: And then of course, we all need [00:03:20] team members. And even if you’re a solo printer, you still need people to help you with different things.

Totally. You can’t [00:03:25] do everything on your own to reach your full potential. And then last but not least, we need [00:03:30] confidants. And so these are people who we can open up with about the hard things that we’re going through. [00:03:35] And so a confidant might make you help. Help you get your confidence back. So you go out there, it could even be a [00:03:40] therapist or an executive coach.

Um, maybe the therapist isn’t directly helping you [00:03:45] make money, but because they’re a part of your support network and a rich relationship, like [00:03:50] in, in a different way, they are helping you move forward with your business.

Rory: Mm-hmm. So it’s like you’ve got [00:03:55] you and your center and then you’ve got mentors, people who are helping you.

You’ve [00:04:00] got promoters. Mm-hmm. You, you’ve got uh, team members, you’ve got your confidant, [00:04:05] what was the, and then your peers. And then your peers. Yeah. Yeah. So I think, uh, it’s [00:04:10] funny about peers ’cause I really, really value that. And I think a lot of people don’t, they [00:04:15] underestimate how important it is to be like, like I respect the feedback of my [00:04:20] peers so much.

Like I will listen to what. Another writer or a [00:04:25] speaker tells me before, like the general population or the general Totally. The general public. [00:04:30] Yeah. Um, so I love that. And you go, these are [00:04:35] relationships that bring you abundance. Yeah. Money that create wealth. Yeah. Energy time. Mm-hmm. [00:04:40] And I love the word about feeling safe.

I think that’s important in any relationship. But, [00:04:45] um, yeah, if you don’t feel that, what, what was the thing that you said at the end? You said if, if there’s [00:04:50] someone who’s like. Intimidating to you, or they’re like very successful or they, or they don’t have your best back interests

Selena: at heart, they [00:04:55] don’t wanna see you win, then that’s not a rich relationship.

How do you know,

Rory: how do you, [00:05:00] how do you know who really has your back? Like what are some of the things, ’cause it’s like, you know, you have social [00:05:05] media friends that you kind of meet and people are like, oh, you don’t ever meet real friends. I’m like, I actually have met some [00:05:10] people on social media that have become like really important to me.

Yeah. That I really trust. Um, [00:05:15] but you know, what are some of the things that you look for in terms of going. [00:05:20] How do you know if somebody really does have your back?

Selena: Yeah, so I think that [00:05:25] people who have your back, like you see it in their actions, how they consistently show up. I mean, there is [00:05:30] also, you know, what happens in business sometimes is there is, you know, love bombing or people coming on [00:05:35] really strong really quickly where you’re like, oh my gosh, this is my new best friend.

But the reality is, is if you’ve only [00:05:40] had one or two conversations, you don’t actually know them. Right? So everything gets revealed over [00:05:45] time. Just seeing how they consistently show up for you. Do they follow through on their word? I think [00:05:50] there’s a lot of people that get excited and they say things, they make promises, but they’re not personally [00:05:55] organized and so they don’t follow through.

And that doesn’t mean that they don’t have your back, but there are gonna be [00:06:00] people who, it’s like time and time again like. They’re always there. You know, it’s like when you’re [00:06:05] like, I’ve got my book coming out, or I’ve launched my podcast, or I need help in this way. They’re always the [00:06:10] first to be like, I’m leaving that Amazon review.

I’m promoting your podcast. I’m showing up to the event. [00:06:15] I’m bringing friends. Right? And so it’s just kind of observing that. And I think a lot of people, you [00:06:20] know, they think about, well, who’s powerful, who’s influential, who feels hard to reach, [00:06:25] who’s got followers? And they think that those are the rich relationships.

Rory: Hmm.

Selena: Right. But your rich relationships are [00:06:30] people who are really there with you through the thick and thin.

Rory: Mm-hmm. You are such a great example of [00:06:35] that. As a friend, you promote not just for me, but like definitely for me, but all of [00:06:40] your friends that like, I know, it’s like mm-hmm. Selena is the one doing reviews.

She is sending out emails. She [00:06:45] is introducing people. Yeah. Constantly. Like if she says, I’ll, I’m gonna try to connect you to so and so, like, [00:06:50] you connect them to so and so. I think that’s a really, really beautiful thing about you. Thank you. Like [00:06:55] practicing what you preach. Um, so I want to, you have a phrase [00:07:00] that you, as you say about mm-hmm.

One rich relationship is worth. Um, and I want [00:07:05] you to talk about the difference between, um, connections versus [00:07:10] real relationships.

Selena: Yeah. So, yeah, so the phrase is that one rich relationship [00:07:15] is more valuable than a hundred casual connections. You know, that’s so good. [00:07:20] It’s

Rory: one rich relationship is better than a thousand, a hundred, a hundred casual connections.

[00:07:25] Although

Selena: really, like a thousand or 10,000. Yeah. Yeah, I came up with it during my BBG intensive, by [00:07:30] the way. It just, like, there it’s, yes. Came outta my mouth. So co-creation, so good. Um, but yeah. [00:07:35] Yeah. So, you know, people sometimes think like they go to events, they take pictures with celebrities. These are not your [00:07:40] rich relationships.

Right. So I think this is a perfect time to talk about the six [00:07:45] circles of connection. Yes. Because everybody, you know, falls into the six circles. And I think the [00:07:50] biggest challenge that I find with people, Rory, is that they feel overwhelmed by. [00:07:55] How do I manage my network when over my decades of life, I’ve literally met multiple thousands of people.[00:08:00]

So how do I manage my network? Sure. Right. So the first thing to do is think about, well, where [00:08:05] do people fall in the six circles? And the sixth circles are based on trust and the [00:08:10] proximity you give to them.

Rory: Hmm. So

Selena: we’re gonna start with circle one. So circle one. [00:08:15] These are your innermost circle of connections.

Okay. These are the people you’re doing life with. And [00:08:20] typically there’s only gonna be a handful, one, three, maybe four or five. [00:08:25] This would be your life partner. This would be your longtime very best [00:08:30] friend. Maybe if someone speaks to a therapist weekly and they’ve had that relationship over [00:08:35] multiple years, maybe they fall in there.

Um, but it’s people that you’re really [00:08:40] opening up to completely about everything that you’re going through. And you feel like if you said, I need help. [00:08:45] Like it’s automatic. Like you can count on them. You know, they say with relationships you shouldn’t [00:08:50] expect things, but for your circle one and your circle two, it’s healthy to expect your [00:08:55] most important relationships to show up for you.

Mm. Right. So if I asked a circle one in your [00:09:00] life, um, you know, what’s Rory up to this week? What’s happening with him? Like, they would have [00:09:05] an answer. So that’s how you know their circle one, they’re kind of on the pulse of what’s happening, if not day by [00:09:10] day, week by week. So are really close. And these are, these are circles

Rory: that are like.

Moving [00:09:15] out. Moving out? Yeah. From you in the center of like, uh, concentric circles. Is that, is that the term? Maybe not. [00:09:20] It’s concentric. Yeah. Okay. So

Selena: one is like the closest. So, and some people have zero, you know, in circle [00:09:25] one. Um, but typically it’s just a handful, like usually one to three.

Rory: Mm-hmm. Um,

Selena: then you have circle [00:09:30] two.

So these are your treasured connections. And these could be people who are like very [00:09:35] close team members, maybe a business partner. Um, really [00:09:40] close friends. Colleagues, maybe your, you know, top supporters in your business that [00:09:45] just consistently show up. You know, you can count on them. These are your circle two, right?

So that’s usually [00:09:50] like half a dozen to a dozen people.

Rory: Okay?

Selena: So six to 12. I’m thinking about Jesus

Rory: here. Like [00:09:55] Jesus had his three best friends and then he had the 12 disciples. Oh, like that is like. I love this [00:10:00] classic, uh, exactly what you’re talking about. Oh my goodness. In terms of the numbers. Yeah.

Selena: Okay.

Yeah.

Rory: [00:10:05] So then you get circle three.

Selena: Yeah. So circle three, this is a pretty broad circle. So this is your active [00:10:10] network, right? And so these are people that you’re close to and there’s three [00:10:15] characteristics. So these are people that you respect. Right. These are people that you’d feel comfortable [00:10:20] recommending and introducing to other people.

And these are people that are also responsive. [00:10:25] So sometimes we might think someone’s in our circle two or circle three, but if we’re texting them [00:10:30] and we need help and we’re like, and they’re ignoring us, they’re not in that circle. They’re in an outer [00:10:35] circle, right? So circle one and two, like two is always one and two will always show up for [00:10:40] you.

The things that one is on like the weekly pulse of what’s going on, right? Super, super inner [00:10:45] circle and then three, they might not, it might not be a guarantee that they can always do everything [00:10:50] that you want ’em to do, but they really would like to, they’re not gonna

Rory: ignore you flat out. Or if they do, they’re like, [00:10:55] I’m so sorry, I just couldn’t get back to you.

But they re respond. I think that’s a really key responsive, they’re responsive. [00:11:00] Yeah. So you respect them and they’re also responsive to

Selena: you. Yeah. So you would invite them to the party, you would feel [00:11:05] comfortable introducing them to treasured people in your network. But then if there [00:11:10] is someone where you’re like, ah, like I still want them in my network, but I feel like they need to be [00:11:15] a little bit of an arm’s length.

I’m not, I don’t want to be like, I can’t be their friend. There’s still [00:11:20] benefit. Okay. But there needs to be a little bit of distance. That’s circle four. Right. So circle four [00:11:25] are your distant connections. These are also called weak ties. So there’s, you know, three different [00:11:30] reasons why people are in circle four.

So one might be, okay, there’s things I like about them. Maybe we have [00:11:35] history, but there’s not total alignment. I just need to kind of manage that relationship. [00:11:40] Thoughtfully might, they might not even be good for your reputation to be like, closely aligned, but you’re like, you know what, they’re okay. [00:11:45] Right?

You can have them around

Rory: or there could be like a certain, a very specific type of person [00:11:50] you would introduce them to, or. Uh, introduce to [00:11:55] them, uh, if there’s like, maybe something like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So maybe

Selena: they’re, but it could [00:12:00] be something like, maybe they drop the ball, maybe they’re super negative and it’s like, okay, there’s a little bit of distance.[00:12:05]

Or another reason might be like, they’re just an acquaintance, right? Like, your life is so full and maybe [00:12:10] what they do is not as relevant to you and the people in your circle. So it’s like they’re more of an [00:12:15] acquaintance, okay? And like you value and appreciate them, but you’re not actively in touch all the time, but you [00:12:20] can tap into them.

When you need them.

Rory: Okay.

Selena: Um, or if you just met someone like the [00:12:25] first and second meeting, someone’s still gonna be in circle four. ’cause you could feel like, wow, they’re amazing. But the [00:12:30] reality is, after one or two meetings, someone is still a stranger, okay? And it takes time to build [00:12:35] trust in order to let them into the more inner circles.

Rory: So five. What’s then the difference between [00:12:40] circle five and Circle four?

Selena: Yeah. Yeah. So a lot of people are in Circle four and there will not be many [00:12:45] people in Circle five. Oh, so Circle five is disconnected. So these are people that have [00:12:50] perhaps betrayed you. Um, these are people where you don’t feel safe around them.

It’s not [00:12:55] healthy for you to be in close proximity. Oh, interesting. You don’t wanna be associated with them [00:13:00] and. Most people have like a couple people over the course of their lifetime that have put [00:13:05] themselves into that category, and it’s just part of, um, you know, healthy boundaries. Basically. You [00:13:10] can be kind and cordial, but if there was a small brunch with four people and you were [00:13:15] invited and you were sitting next to your circle five, you’d probably be like, I don’t wanna go to that event.[00:13:20]

You know, and, and that’s not someone that I would recommend at all to others. Right.

Rory: Okay. And

Selena: what about Circle six? So Circle [00:13:25] six is everyone else out into the world. Strangers, basically. Yeah. So that’s like, you know, billions of people in the world, [00:13:30] but everyone falls into these different circles. And so I think that this is helpful to know, not because you’re going to [00:13:35] announce to someone, you’re in circle four or you’re in circle two, but you know, so if [00:13:40] you notice that someone is treating you a particular way and it’s like, wow, I like go for bat, I go above and beyond [00:13:45] for them, but they’re treating me like this or they’re showing up in this way, like right now, mentally.

I’ve moved [00:13:50] them to circle four.

Rory: Mm-hmm. And then

Selena: just being really aware of who are the people that show up for you? Who, who [00:13:55] prioritizes you? Who do you feel safe around? Who is responsive? Who supports you? [00:14:00] Right. These are your circle one, twos and threes. So those are gonna be our priority people. That being said, it [00:14:05] is good to have weak ties as well, um, but they don’t get the same consistent [00:14:10] energy from you.

Rory: All right. So let’s talk about how to get access [00:14:15] to influential people. Yes. Because. You know, influential people tend to [00:14:20] be influential for a reason. They can introdu, they can make things happen, right? Yeah. They, they can [00:14:25] knock down walls, they can get things moving, but they also tend to be the people [00:14:30] everyone is trying to get to.

And so it can be really hard to get to them. [00:14:35] And, um, also they, they reach, they reach a point I think [00:14:40] where they, they start to know that people are trying to get to them and it’s, mm-hmm. People want [00:14:45] something from them. And so they tend to, they, it’s like the more influential someone [00:14:50] becomes, a lot of times, I feel like the more guarded they become.

Yeah. Mm-hmm. Um, how do [00:14:55] you build relationships with some of those people? Right. And it’s like, I’m thinking it’s like, it [00:15:00] could be a literary agent, it could be someone who runs a speaker’s bureau. It could be someone with a huge podcast. It could [00:15:05] be someone who’s a TV show host. It could be somebody who writes for a, an important publication.[00:15:10]

And over time, they’re like, oh, okay. Like a lot of the people who want access to me [00:15:15] don’t really care about me. They really care about my audience or my thing or my whatever. Mm-hmm. And so it’s like, [00:15:20] it’s sort of a tricky thing to go, how do I build trust with that person that [00:15:25] everyone else is sort of trying to get to?

Or it could be just like a celebrity endorsement or something like, [00:15:30] something like that.

Selena: So much to say about this. Yes. I feel like this is really power. Well, you’re really good at this. I

Rory: want to hear how [00:15:35] you approach this. Yeah,

Selena: so when I think about a busy, influential person, I think of them as his train, and [00:15:40] they’re on the tracks.

They’re going full speed ahead, and there might be moments where the train stops and it [00:15:45] opens up the doors and let people’s on. On, but then it, you know, continues forward. Hmm. And so a lot of [00:15:50] people, when they’re trying to connect with that busy, influential person, it’s like they’re trying to pull the train off the [00:15:55] tracks.

They’re like, Hey, this is my agenda. This is what I need from you. And it’s just simply [00:16:00] not going to work.

Rory: Hmm.

Selena: And so the way to really connect with busy, influential people [00:16:05] is when there’s an opening, you just. Jump on the train and help them get to their end destination [00:16:10] faster. And so you wanna be really good at understanding what people need.

And a [00:16:15] concept that I’ve coined is breathtaking generosity. Yes. And so it’s this idea [00:16:20] of, you know, being so kind, so.[00:16:25]

And it’s like your their new favorite person. [00:16:30] And so there’s two primary ways to be breathtakingly generous. So one is being a [00:16:35] pain detective. And I first heard Joe Polish, use this word, so a pain. Pain [00:16:40] detective. Detective, okay. Yeah. So it’s being really attuned to the pain in the people [00:16:45] who matter to you.

So some people might say, you know, Selena, Rory, how do I know when people are in pain? They’re not [00:16:50] telling me they’re in pain. And I would say it’s actually pretty obvious. There’s usually a few different categories of [00:16:55] pain. So one would be natural disaster. You know, many of us know people who’ve been [00:17:00] affected by hurricanes and floods and fires, right?

So that’s one category. [00:17:05] Um, relationships, maybe someone is going through a divorce or maybe they’re having [00:17:10] behavior. Issues with their kids or maybe their, you know, parents are aging and sick, [00:17:15] right? Health, um, maybe they have a chronic illness, right? Or someone that they care [00:17:20] about, um, financial, maybe their business is not doing well and things are falling [00:17:25] apart, or identity where it’s like.

I’m not married to this person anymore. I’m not a [00:17:30] part of this community. The, the business, um, topic that everyone knew me for is not [00:17:35] even a thing I do anymore, right? Mm-hmm. And so I think if we all slowed down a little bit, [00:17:40] I think that we could identify people in our world who are in pain. And so when I say when people are in [00:17:45] pain, be the first to show up and not the last to show up.

So I feel like I’ve [00:17:50] always been really good at just spotting when people are in pain and need help and I’m [00:17:55] just like, I’m right there, like right away. Mm-hmm.

Rory: And

Selena: I think that people don’t do it. Not because they don’t [00:18:00] care, but because they haven’t. Consciously prioritize that when they see people in [00:18:05] pain, it’s like, be the first, right?

Don’t be the last or the person who doesn’t show up at all. So that’s [00:18:10] one. The second is being a dream amplifier. And so really paying [00:18:15] attention to when people have these big goals and dreams, and you know what they are because they’re sharing them, they’re sharing them on [00:18:20] social media, they’re sharing them at.

On their newsletter, they’re sharing them in conversations. Whether it’s [00:18:25] like, you know, I wanna be a new and noteworthy podcast. I dream of being on the New York Times [00:18:30] bestsellers list. I wanna speak on stages. I wanna get this new business idea off the ground. Oh my gosh, I would [00:18:35] die if I could get connected to this person and maybe one day earn their endorsement.

Right? So [00:18:40] if you’re a really close to someone, you could. Them. But the reality is, let’s say if we [00:18:45] look at just entrepreneurs or personal brands, most people’s goals and dreams are exactly the same. You know what I [00:18:50] mean? Mm-hmm. They want to connect with other people that inspire them. Um, [00:18:55] they want to, you know, make more money.

They want. People to take things off their [00:19:00] plate. They want to have more peace, more ease. Um, and so when you really become that pain [00:19:05] detective and that dream amplifier and consistently show up with breathtaking [00:19:10] generosity, and when I say consistently, I don’t mean that like every moment of your life you have to do that.

But [00:19:15] when there is someone that’s important to you. And you see that opportunity, right? Just be the first to [00:19:20] show up and not the last.

Rory: Your metaphor about the train is so good. [00:19:25] I, I think that’s so powerful. And, and I know that you were talking about that a little bit before the [00:19:30] pain detective, but the idea that everybody is on a path to do [00:19:35] something.

Mm-hmm. And it’s like instead of trying to pull them over [00:19:40] to what you’re doing Yeah. If you can just like hop on. To their [00:19:45] train and help them do the thing that they’re trying to do. Like that is [00:19:50] the easiest way to, to get noticed. To be valuable. To be useful, yeah. [00:19:55] Um, I think not enough people understand.

Not enough people understand [00:20:00] that. And I think about, and I, I always use this story. Mm-hmm. Um, so a, a, a few weeks ago [00:20:05] I finally, um, well, so the story is of a woman named Gretchen Rubin who wrote The [00:20:10] Happiness Project. Oh yeah. Mm-hmm. And I just thought, oh my gosh, she’s just so cool. And, [00:20:15] um, she was amazing.

And I saw that she had a new book coming [00:20:20] out and I reached out to her and I was just like, Hey. Is there any chance you’d come on my [00:20:25] podcast? By the way, I know I don’t have the world’s largest podcast. I have a great show, but I [00:20:30] also have a lot of friends that have podcasts. And if you’d be willing to come on my [00:20:35] show, I will proactively introduce you to all of these other shows.

Oh, [00:20:40] and she said yes, and then I did. Yeah. And that started a relationship, which has [00:20:45] now been going for like. 13 years and Oh wow. We just met [00:20:50] in person like a few weeks ago.

Selena: Oh, that’s incredible. And our

Rory: entire relationship was just over [00:20:55] like virtual. Um, but I met her because it was like that, [00:21:00] you know, book launches.

Are one of the times, yes. Where everybody needs [00:21:05] help and they’re open to receiving help. Like we use, again, that train metaphor of like the door [00:21:10] opens when someone is launching a book. Like you just need to know this. If someone has a book [00:21:15] coming out, they need help. They’re trying to get the word out and a lot of their [00:21:20] friends are ghosting on them and like they scatter like cockroaches.

And you’re going like, if you can show [00:21:25] up and be like, I’m excited about this project. I want to help and you do something that’s a great. [00:21:30] Window. And like you’re saying, you, you look for those windows Yeah. When someone’s starting a [00:21:35] new company. Mm-hmm. That, that would be, uh, you know, very similar when someone enters a [00:21:40] contest or, or if they’re going through a difficult time.

But it’s, it, it’s like you’re talking about it being a pain [00:21:45] detective. Mm-hmm. But it also seems like when they’re being like a dream chaser Yeah. It’s like [00:21:50] those two moments are like Exactly. That’s, that’s, those are the [00:21:55] two moments where people are most receptive. To help and thereby most receptive [00:22:00] to new relationships, right.

That they might not otherwise be. I love, I love that. So [00:22:05] yeah,

Selena: so there’s like golden moments of opportunity and you just have to be very good at stopping up there. Stops on the train. Yeah, [00:22:10] there’s, they’re, yeah. That’s a train stop. Yeah, that’s a train

Rory: stop.

Selena: And the other thing is, you were talking about the relationship with [00:22:15] Gretchen is that I think we need to cover this concept of reciprocity because I’m not a [00:22:20] fan.

Most people are always like, I’m looking for reciprocal relationships. Right? Or they feel like I [00:22:25] help people a lot and they don’t help me. So here’s the thing. I don’t believe in reciprocity at all. I [00:22:30] believe in generosity and I believe in energetic abundance. So, for example, in your relationship with [00:22:35] Gretchen, you proactively reach out to her.

I would love to feature you and you know, [00:22:40] and if you’re. You know, a yes to this. I also wanna, you know, make all these, you know, introductions and [00:22:45] support you even more. But it’s not like, let’s say if you hooked Gretchen up with 13 [00:22:50] interviews, you’re like, Hey Gretchen, can you introduce me to 13 of your friends?

Right. That’s not like the way [00:22:55] that Totally you do it.

Rory: Totally. And I

Selena: think that also sometimes. People are at different levels, right? [00:23:00] Of business, um, and in their careers. So we’re all equal as human [00:23:05] beings. Amen. Everyone deserves like respect and kindness. But if you’re reaching out to [00:23:10] maybe somebody that you really look up to, that’s like 20 years further ahead, that has [00:23:15] millions of followers and you support their.

Book launch and breathtakingly generous [00:23:20] ways, it is not realistic to expect that they reciprocate in the same [00:23:25] way. You know, they might have like 500 people in their book launch team. They just simply can’t do that. [00:23:30] And so, you know, when people try to create these tit for tat relationships, and I think that [00:23:35] if some people wanna do that, that’s fine.

The reality is it’s just extremely limiting. [00:23:40] And so I think it’s more important to think long term and think about how do I create energetic abundance? [00:23:45] Because there may be someone where it’s like, I’m gonna help them and they may never help me. But if they’re [00:23:50] grateful and we’re building that connection and I’m feeling alive and they’re feeling alive from it, it’s positive.[00:23:55]

You know, with like, say a mentor mentee relationship, typically the mentor is [00:24:00] always gonna give a lot more than the mentee, right? Sure. So looking for 50 50, [00:24:05] um, and looking for transactional relationships is very limiting. I call that transactional [00:24:10] giving. And then there’s indiscriminate giving where someone just feels like I need to say yes to everyone.[00:24:15]

Um, so that everybody likes me and you know, they kind of center everyone else and they forget about their own [00:24:20] needs. And then there’s rich giving, which is what I teach, which is being really [00:24:25] clear on who do I intentionally want to pour into which relationships. Feel [00:24:30] energizing and abundant, which relationships I would give even, you know, just because it [00:24:35] feels good to give.

That being said, there are nuances. Of course. If you feel that the person is [00:24:40] draining or they don’t care about you at all and they only want to use you, that’s not a rich relationship. [00:24:45] That’s not energetic abundance. Right. Um, so I think that that’s the way [00:24:50] is don’t look for reciprocal relationships if you’re saying, you know, people don’t help me, it’s.[00:24:55]

Because you’re either doing one of two things. One, you’re choosing the wrong people to invest in you because [00:25:00] the right people, when you show up with kindness and generosity consistently, they wanna help you too, [00:25:05] right? So either you’re investing in the wrong people, or two people don’t know what your goals and [00:25:10] dreams are, so they don’t know how to help you, or you never told them explicitly what they can [00:25:15] do to support you.

Rory: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I’ve always found too that [00:25:20] like you don’t really have to keep score because it’s like. [00:25:25] Even if, even if Selena gives me something and I don’t directly [00:25:30] reciprocate to you. Mm-hmm. I have found that like you can’t outgive God, like you can’t outgive the [00:25:35] universe. So even if I don’t reciprocate back to you equally, [00:25:40] someone else will like, it always comes back to me where it’s like.

It [00:25:45] may not happen through that person.

Selena: Right.

Rory: But eventually the blessings come back. You [00:25:50] always get paid, you always get rewarded for how generous you are to people. Always. Yeah. [00:25:55] Sometimes it’s from that person. Oftentimes it’s from another, but sooner or later it will, [00:26:00] it will come back to you. And here’s something I wanna, I [00:26:05] wanna articulate.

Well, let me, I wanna share. The single biggest thing, I’ve gotten clarity [00:26:10] on relationships in my own life just recently. Mm-hmm. And it’s about when I introduce [00:26:15] people to each other. Yeah. Because, you know, over the years we’ve built [00:26:20] some relationships with people who are like pretty, pretty influential.

Mm-hmm. And pretty much, there’s not a day that [00:26:25] goes by that somebody’s like, can I meet Lewis Howes? Will you introduce me to Amy Porterfield? Like, will you introduce me [00:26:30] to Cody Sanchez? Or who, you know, whoever the person is.

Selena: Yeah.

Rory: And. [00:26:35] I struggled with this for the longest time. It was so hard because I was like, [00:26:40] well, it’s, it’s not that I don’t want to introduce you because I, I [00:26:45] want to help you.

Selena: Mm-hmm.

Rory: But I, there’s something that doesn’t feel right and I [00:26:50] couldn’t, I couldn’t put my finger on. Why don’t I feel right about it? And [00:26:55] recently I did, maybe it’s like six months ago, or maybe a year ago, and it has been so clarifying for me. [00:27:00] And now I only have one rule when it comes to introducing people to each other.

Mm. [00:27:05] I say, I will introduce you to Lewis Howes. The moment you can [00:27:10] add as much value to him as he can add to you. Mm. And [00:27:15] if that moment comes. You won’t have to ask me. I will automatically [00:27:20] introduce you. Right. Because I care about you and I care about Louis. Mm. But if, you [00:27:25] know, I can’t add value to Oprah right now in a way [00:27:30] that she can’t get access to it somewhere else.

Right, right, right. So it’s gonna be hard for someone [00:27:35] to introduce me to Oprah. Right. Until. Or un [00:27:40] until it’s not right. Yeah. Until she’s maybe struggling with something that I have a specific expertise in. [00:27:45] Yeah. Or, you know, something that she can’t get anywhere else. Um, but I think [00:27:50] as, as we evaluate our [00:27:55] relationships with people and how much someone has been giving to us, I think it’s like we have to [00:28:00] also be mindful that we can’t be upset at friends who can’t deliver [00:28:05] things for us that aren’t.

Equally yoked with who we are.

Selena: Right. That’s so true. Yeah. [00:28:10] But,

Rory: but then it’s like, you know, sometimes they are so, like Lewis is a good example, right? Is to go, [00:28:15] well, I can’t introduce you to be on Lewis’ show, like mm-hmm. Because you’re a brand new person, [00:28:20] whatever, right? Yeah. Mm-hmm. But then I go, oh, well, you know, the moment that Lewis [00:28:25] becomes.

Super. He comes, he becomes super interested and like, you know, [00:28:30] uh, you know, there’s a health crisis in his family and he needs a person who can help with da dah, [00:28:35] dah, dah. It’s like, oh, now I can introduce this person, because he has, [00:28:40] he has that need. Mm-hmm. And, and so I think you go, if you go through life just going, [00:28:45] and this is something you do really well, if you just go through life going, how can I add value?

Selena: [00:28:50] Yeah.

Rory: Where can I add value? Where can I contribute? Then. Sooner or [00:28:55] later, your name’s gonna show up in the hat on the receiving end of that. Somewhere else. Totally. Somewhere else. [00:29:00] Yeah.

Selena: I mean, you’re building your reputation, you’re building goodwill. I like to think of it that when you’re [00:29:05] investing in these relationships and you’re giving generously, you’re actually investing in your overall [00:29:10] network and your network just starts to get stronger.

Right. I

Rory: love the breathtaking generosity. [00:29:15] Yeah. Because that, that, that’s it too, is to aspire to go, how can I. [00:29:20] Blow their mind. Yeah. Like how can I knock their socks off? I would

Selena: love to share one example of this. Yeah, please. Yeah. It’s in [00:29:25] my book. So basically, um, this was a couple years ago and [00:29:30] things were, well, first of all, they were like up and down in my business launches that used to do, you know.[00:29:35]

Really well, we’re not doing well anymore.

Rory: Mm.

Selena: Um, I, you know, I had also moved to Puerto Rico [00:29:40] and everybody was like, you know, you should be investing in crypto. And, you know, you hear of people that put in a hundred [00:29:45] thousand and it becomes 10 million and you’re like, oh my gosh. Like, why am I not doing it?

And so I converted [00:29:50] my retirement savings into a self-directed IRA so I could invest in crypto. [00:29:55] Wow. Yeah. I didn’t know that. Yeah. And then I lost a hundred thousand dollars. Oh. Um, so [00:30:00] that happened. And then at the same time I was investing in real estate. ’cause you know, they say passive [00:30:05] income is so important.

I had a second property. But then what happened is that there were other properties [00:30:10] that were like popping up around that were more suited for that area. It was more a family focused [00:30:15] area. And so I was losing like $6,000 a month on my two bedroom. Oh man. So everything was like [00:30:20] kind of all happening at once and I was like, I need a money coach.

Like whenever I need help, I [00:30:25] always invest in a coach. So even though I’ve never done this, I need to find a money coach. So I just like Googled [00:30:30] online. I found like the Dave Ramsey website, I answered some questions and they assign me to this [00:30:35] coach, and her name’s Jenna Rose and she’s amazing. And I just start to feel very [00:30:40] confident and I have my game plan.

I’m like, okay, I’m like fixing things and really, you know, feeling good. And I have the kind [00:30:45] of personality where if I think someone’s great, I just like to tell everybody like, you gotta work with them. And [00:30:50] I would tell like certain friends, like my best friend, like seven different times to hire Jenna [00:30:55] Rose.

And she didn’t do it. And so I just thought, I just need to buy sessions for [00:31:00] everyone. And at around the same time, I was promoting a friend who had a money course. So I needed a [00:31:05] kind of like a cool bonus package. Package giveaway package. Yeah. So I went to Jenna Rose and said like, [00:31:10] what if I just bought like sessions and just gave them to tons of people, like I, you [00:31:15] know, um.

Like, what if it was like ended up being like a hundred sessions or whatever, what kind of price [00:31:20] point could you give me? So it’s like a no-brainer for me to use as some bonus packages and things like [00:31:25] that. And so this is a number that she came up with, not me. Um, but it was basically [00:31:30] she was willing to give me a package of four sessions with her for $200.

Hmm [00:31:35] one-on-one because she knew that a lot of times she might have to have like one or two [00:31:40] conversations or more, like before somebody even becomes a client. So she’s like, oh wow, Selena’s putting me in front of all these [00:31:45] dream clients. Like I’ll do it for 200 bucks. And so when I noticed people around me, ’cause I [00:31:50] wasn’t the only person that was experiencing these shifts in the marketplace, right?

Um, [00:31:55] people that were struggling with money, like dear friends of mine, people that were going through divorce, and [00:32:00] there’s like a huge financial consequence there. I would just like send a little voice note, like [00:32:05] 90 seconds like, Hey, I was thinking of you. You know, I recently worked with this person and it has [00:32:10] created so much transformation and I would love to gift you some sessions.

Wow. And just to [00:32:15] be super clear, like I do not need anything in return. I just wanna support you as a friend. Let [00:32:20] me know if you’re open to an intro and people. All my friends said yes. [00:32:25] And so I would introduce him to Jenna Rose. And I remember one person, she’s um, a single [00:32:30] mom, and she was like, wow, Jenna Rose also made me realize all this money that I’m entitled [00:32:35] to my divorce.

I didn’t expect another person was like, Jenna Rose showed me how to save [00:32:40] $15,000 a month. So I’m doing the math like 15,000 a month. 12 months. [00:32:45] That’s 18,000 in one year.

Rory: Hmm.

Selena: So I put $200 in. [00:32:50] It was probably two minutes of my time to send the voice note and make the intro. Jenna [00:32:55] Rose is doing the sessions, not me, and I’ve helped someone who’s important to me save [00:33:00] $18,000 a year.

And so breathtaking generosity doesn’t have to take [00:33:05] up a lot of your time. It might be connecting people to the right resources, gifting them a [00:33:10] session, right. But I’ve. I don’t remember how many people I did that, but I remember [00:33:15] after like losing $7,000 in Facebook ads, I just had like this personal goal, I’m gonna spend at least [00:33:20] $7,000 just gifting people sessions.

Rory: Mm-hmm. And

Selena: so there’s different things that I do like that, [00:33:25] or even with publicity. Um, you know, I might gift a session with my media coach, so it’s [00:33:30] not my time, but you know, the time with my media coach, if it’s something I’m paying internally, [00:33:35] it’s not. You know, it’s something that is financially manageable and then we can even get someone a [00:33:40] win from like one call, and then I make one introduction.

And in some cases it’s like, wow, now they’re in [00:33:45] Forbes. You know? And that could have cost them. You know, many thousands, you know, [00:33:50] working with a publicist. Sure. Right. A 10,000, 20, $30,000 contract. Sure. Make an introduction. But [00:33:55] we’re only, but I’m also mindful, I’m obviously not going to do like, you know, three months of [00:34:00] services for free, but like, maybe, you know, one call.

With a coach and one connection. So you [00:34:05] just have to be clear on what feels good for you, like how much are you willing to give [00:34:10] that actually feels expansive and exciting and creates so much abundance. And then just do [00:34:15] that same thing over and over again.

Rory: Mm-hmm. Um, and,

Selena: and that’s the important thing, like when you’re building [00:34:20] relationships, it’s not about doing a million different things.

It’s doing like two or three things. [00:34:25] Over and over again, whether you’re like the person that hosts dinner parties or you’re the person that gifts this [00:34:30] kind of service. Um, and it really has that compound effect.

Rory: Mm-hmm. I love what [00:34:35] you said about introducing vendor partners.

Selena: Yeah.

Rory: Because I’ve [00:34:40] come to realize that like I, I literally in the last [00:34:45] couple weeks I said this to aj, I said, I now [00:34:50] believe that more.

Then [00:34:55] 70% of solving a problem comes down to just finding the [00:35:00] person who knows how to solve the problem.

Selena: Right? Right. Like

Rory: it’s just going, if you can just [00:35:05] find the person who already knows how to do the thing you’re trying to do or has done the, I mean, it’s [00:35:10] like mm-hmm. The problem’s basically solved, um, and going, introducing great [00:35:15] vendors.

Is one of the easiest things that any of us could do. Now you’re doing it with money, right? Yeah. [00:35:20] You’re like buying a session, which is so awesome. Mm-hmm. But it’s like even if you’re not, yeah. If you go, you know how hard it is to find a good [00:35:25] babysitter, a good cleaner, a good chef, a good mechanic. Like [00:35:30] all a good lawyer.

A good dentist, a good CPA. Yeah. Like all of us [00:35:35] have vendors.

Selena: Yes.

Rory: And we never think of how [00:35:40] valuable, like if a vendor is blowing your mind. To go, like, I wanna [00:35:45] help them by in, I want to tell all of my friends and family about this vendor, right? Like these people do what [00:35:50] they say they’re gonna do. They’re really good at what they do.

They really can help you. And like they [00:35:55] have integrity and it’s like everybody wins and you get caught in the [00:36:00] crossfires. So much of how I built my relationships mm-hmm. Is like. I’m introducing people [00:36:05] to people who are way more influential than me. Like, I don’t even belong in the conversation, [00:36:10] but I like get caught in the crossfire of introducing people [00:36:15] to each other.

And then, you know, it’s like you introduce them to five people and they’re like, Hey, what [00:36:20] can I do for you? Right.

Selena: Right. And like, they’re really

Rory: like, they’re like, I, I honestly feel kind of bad. Like you, you’ve [00:36:25] connected me to all these amazing people. Like how can I help you?

Selena: Yeah. And then

Rory: it’s like, [00:36:30] okay, well, you know, so I I, it’s all in that breathtaking generosity.[00:36:35]

Um, and I love the tactical thing of introducing vendors, but that’s [00:36:40] super cool that you bought, like use your own money to pay sessions to help people [00:36:45] avoid making mistakes that like you’ve personally struggled with.

Selena: Yeah, and I think. I, I believe that [00:36:50] everybody should be investing money into their relationships.

I think a lot of people are comfortable making an [00:36:55] introduction, but when there’s anything financial like, uh, Uhuh and it like comes, you, you have a generosity fund. Yes. You have a concept. So I [00:37:00] actually like, recommend that everybody create a generosity fund Yes. For their business. [00:37:05] Right. And so I know like with, for example, we’ll Adera a reasonable hospitality, like what they would [00:37:10] do is they would carve out like 5% and just do these breathtakingly generous.

[00:37:15] Unreasonably hospitable things for people. Mm-hmm. And that was like, you know, that was just like a part of their business [00:37:20] model. And so think about what is it for you? Maybe it’s 2%, maybe it’s a [00:37:25] flat, you know, dollar amount. Maybe there’s a percentage of your services that you’ll gift to [00:37:30] people in need.

But when you think about like your VIP clients, your top [00:37:35] affiliate partners and promoters, and you think about all that they do for you and all that they invest in you. [00:37:40] If you carved out like 5% or 2% and like invested it back in them, [00:37:45] obviously like, you know, it would pay dividends, right? So, yeah, I think that’s really [00:37:50] important to think about.

Okay, who, who do I want to invest in? Like who is my generosity fund [00:37:55] for? Right? Is it clients? Is it team members? Is it promoters? Is it new [00:38:00] relationships I’m looking to build? How much do I wanna put in there? Whether it’s a percentage or a flat [00:38:05] fee. And then what are the specific things I’m going to give?

What are the services I’m gonna [00:38:10] give? What are the things I support? Maybe it’s something like around, um, you know, it could be a [00:38:15] charitable initiative or something that is like religious, but whatever it is, like these things I’m like [00:38:20] always a yes for that.

Rory: So great one. One of the best marketing promotions that we started doing at Brand [00:38:25] Builders Group is we give our clients.

A golden ticket where the client [00:38:30] actually doesn’t have to pay us the money. Yeah. We, but we gift them one ticket to [00:38:35] go give this to a friend. Yeah. And then we actually will pay our, our, our [00:38:40] client. A, a referral fee if they give it to a friend and a friend signs up. Right. But we [00:38:45] started doing that ’cause it creates this like, generosity loop of just like, we’ll give you a, a [00:38:50] ticket to give to somebody.

And that’s a really, uh, effective example of, of, [00:38:55] you know, doing that. But like, you know, that’s to what you’re saying, like, as a company, we [00:39:00] budget for that X number of seats for to be able to gift. You know, for our clients to be able to [00:39:05] gift. Yeah. Um, that’s really good. I, I got, I, I, I want, I want to know where you wanna [00:39:10] direct people, but before I do, I got one more question for you.

Mm-hmm. Um, I have to, I, I’m [00:39:15] so curious. This is completely a little bit off subject. Okay. But I’m so, I’m so curious [00:39:20] about your philosophy about AI and how is a, how is AI [00:39:25] gonna change the future of relationships [00:39:30] and relationship building? Do you see it? Being something that will change it [00:39:35] dramatically or not change it dramatically, like relationships are gonna, like.

I’m just [00:39:40] curious because you, you and I are both aligned in like Yeah. How important relationships are. [00:39:45] Are you, do you spend time thinking about how AI will. [00:39:50] Interrupt that or not really? Or what? Like what’s, what’s your thought there?

Selena: Yeah, I think that [00:39:55] business is being done differently now. So I think that there was a time where mass marketing was really [00:40:00] effective.

And I’m not saying don’t do it. I think you still do it, but I think mass marketing alone is not [00:40:05] enough. You know, before you could spend a ton of money on Facebook ads or send a million emails or [00:40:10] just do whatever, and you could get people. Into your programs and now like trust is lower than [00:40:15] ever. And when I think about when I’m making buying decisions, I’m always just asking my friends.

[00:40:20] I’m asking my friends, my mentors, my peers, people that I trust, who do you work with? Who do you [00:40:25] recommend? Like that’s the way I’m doing it. And so you want to be building those relationships with [00:40:30] people of influence. Right? And so, and and that’s something that money can. Buy. You [00:40:35] know, I remember a former team member wanted to get in touch with a very influential entrepreneur who I’m friends [00:40:40] with, and she wanted to support her with her launch.

And there’s no amount of Facebook [00:40:45] ads and Mars mass marketing or cold email, you know, marketing that would get that [00:40:50] highly influential person to say yes to that meeting. Um, but when I knew that was a dream of hers, I was like, let me [00:40:55] just send her a Voxer note and I just sent a note and then, you know, like two hours later they’re in touch, [00:41:00] right?

Mm-hmm. So like rich relationships can take you places that mass marketing never can. [00:41:05]

Rory: Mm. And the

Selena: other thing is now it’s easier to stay in touch because there’s more tools. And so I feel like [00:41:10] if you aren’t. Staying in touch with people, but others are, um, then [00:41:15] you’re not gonna be considered right, like out of sight, out of mind.

And I think that the [00:41:20] biggest thing that people need to focus on right now when it comes to rich relationships is actually the nurture piece. [00:41:25] I think yes, we can expand and build more relationships, but the way in which we’re [00:41:30] struggling as nurture, so there’s build, gotta know the right people and gotta know what my goals and dreams [00:41:35] are and create those initial connections.

Nurture. I have to stay in touch with people. So I’m top of [00:41:40] mind and people feel that I’m important to them, right, and that they matter. And then third is [00:41:45] activate. But you can’t activate successfully if you haven’t done the nurture, because [00:41:50] if you go from build to activate, then people will feel that you’re a transactional person and they’re not going [00:41:55] to want to support you.

So I just would love to like share this final example. So with my book [00:42:00] launch. One thing that I, I’ve always done well, but I definitely did this with my book launch, is like, I’m very [00:42:05] good at Nurture. So like, let’s say, you know, I’m working on the book cover [00:42:10] and, you know, texting people individually, Hey, here are three covers.

Which one do you like the [00:42:15] best? Um, I did something called rich Relationships Behind the Scenes, which was like [00:42:20] a webinar where I brought together my rich relationships. I didn’t send, you know. Mass [00:42:25] email. I reached out to people individually and said, Hey, you’re such an important person in my world and I’m launching my book.[00:42:30]

Um, I would love to share with you the behind the scenes what my big goals and dreams are. Um, [00:42:35] and so I did that and I got like a hundred influential connections. Cool. And then I shared my bulk buy [00:42:40] packages at the very end, right? And I did a lot of like different events to bring people together, virtual events, [00:42:45] in-person events.

Um, and when I hit, you know, the USA today bestsellers list, [00:42:50] thanks to you, I screenshot that in my phone. And then also. Um, LA Times [00:42:55] number three. And I started, yeah, I texted people like the two screenshots and [00:43:00] then the first sentence was always the same. Like, I hit number 10 on USA today and number three [00:43:05] on LA Times.

And then I would add a sentence like, thanks for pre-ordering our copy and making my [00:43:10] dream come true. Thanks for having me on my, your podcast. Thanks for having me on, uh, being on [00:43:15] my book launch team. That’s good. Thanks for cheering me on. Right. So it was, um. So, [00:43:20] but because I like organized in a way, and this is like going back to like, you wanna be doing the same [00:43:25] action again and again.

You don’t wanna be doing like, you know, 47 different actions you wanna do, like one action, [00:43:30] but just slightly personalize it. So it’s like upload, upload the two pictures, copy and [00:43:35] paste the one sentence, and then write one sentence. So, you know, at first I was like just [00:43:40] maybe reaching out to like, I don’t know.

Seven people, and then I’m like, you know what? Let me push myself. [00:43:45] And so that day I reached out to 70 people. Wow. And by the next day, I’d reached out to maybe like [00:43:50] 120 people. And then people started. I didn’t ask for anything. I wasn’t trying to activate, I was just [00:43:55] trying to tell people that you’re important to me and I’m so excited and I wanna share my [00:44:00] win with you.

So, you know, people like, um, you know, our mutual friend Jim Quick was like, oh yeah, I got the [00:44:05] book here I need to post. So then he did his Instagram story and then, you know, Mike Mcal is [00:44:10] like, oh my gosh, yeah, I’ve been meaning to support you. Okay. It’s going in the newsletter today. Um, and then a [00:44:15] colleague who’s a Circle four, um, his name is Francis and he’s just circle four because we’re not in [00:44:20] touch all the time.

But he sees my Instagram stories and even that’s a form of nurturing. ’cause people see what [00:44:25] you’re up to. Mm-hmm. And he was like, Selena, do you think I would make a dent if I emailed my list of [00:44:30] 600,000 people about your book? And I was like, are you for real? And I was like, okay, let me make it [00:44:35] so easy. I wanna create custom swipe.

But I didn’t ask anyone for anything, but I [00:44:40] did keep them posted on the journey. And when you just circle back in the right moment, [00:44:45] the right people are gonna be like, oh my gosh, let me jump in. So that’s, that’s like my number one piece of advice for [00:44:50] everyone. So

Rory: good is

Selena: nurture your network and the easiest way is just little pings to keep them [00:44:55] updated on what is happening in your world.

Rory: That’s so good. You are so good at that. And uh, [00:45:00] I love how you circled back folks. Rich relationships create a million dollar network for your [00:45:05] business. As you could tell. There was, so there I had like 20 questions I didn’t even get to. There’s so much. [00:45:10] Uh, there’s so much tactical frameworks mm-hmm. Into this whole world of [00:45:15] relationships.

As you can tell from our conversation. So, uh, Selena, where else do you want people to go [00:45:20] to? Learn about you and follow you and stay connected to what you’re doing.

Selena: Yeah, they can [00:45:25] go to rich relationships book.com/scripts. So one of people’s favorite [00:45:30] things in the book is scripts because you build rich relationships through conversation, right?[00:45:35]

And so this is how I’ve built my, you know, a hundred million dollars network, have achieved all these big things. So [00:45:40] I package all of my scripts in one place, and you can get [00:45:45] [email protected] slash script.

Rory: Awesome. We’ll link to the show notes. Uh, hopefully you enjoyed this [00:45:50] episode. Ask yourself right now who is a rich relationship for [00:45:55] you that you need to nurture.

Let them know how much you appreciate them. Figure out a way to add value [00:46:00] to them right now. Uh, and if you wanna be a part of our journey, you could [00:46:05] follow Selena on social. Say hello to her. We would always love a review or share this episode, [00:46:10] and maybe that’s what you need to do is share this episode with someone that you think it’ll be useful for.

Thanks for being [00:46:15] here. We’ll catch you next time on the Influential Personal Brand [00:46:20] [00:46:25] Podcast.

Ep 616: Why Physicians Need a Personal Brand: How to take back control and confidence through real content with Dr. Mina

AJ: Hey everybody. Welcome. We are so excited to have you today. It’s [00:01:55] not every day that I get to interview someone that I [00:02:00] know, like, and admire. Uh, I get to know Dr. Mina [00:02:05] and her brand, and her business and her mission. I’ve gotten the privilege of getting to [00:02:10] sit in the audience to hear her speak. And I’m so excited to introduce her to [00:02:15] all of you today.

Now, for all of those of you who are listening or watching, uh, [00:02:20] who her Face is new to you, or Dr. Mina, her name is new to you, uh, Dr. [00:02:25] Mina, I really would love for everyone to kind of get to know you a little bit and you have [00:02:30] kind of a unique journey and in my opinion, of what a [00:02:35] typical physician an MD, would go through Harvard trained physician to top podcaster [00:02:40] and entrepreneur.

So can you tell our audience a little bit about your [00:02:45] story and behind the, the skin reel and also just this whole concept of [00:02:50] bringing humanity back into medicine.

Dr. Mina: Oh my gosh. Thank you so much AJ, for [00:02:55] having me on. Uh, you and Rory and Brand Builders has really been instrumental in my [00:03:00] journey, so really thrilled to be here.

And I think this is such an important, important [00:03:05] topic and that’s why I wanted to talk about it. So, yeah, I don’t, I guess I don’t like to do anything the [00:03:10] traditional way prior to being a. I was a ballet dancer, and then I decided I [00:03:15] wasn’t a very good ballet dancer. Why don’t I go to medical school? And everything was going [00:03:20] chugging along great.

I was hitting all my goals. Go to med school, become a [00:03:25] dermatologist, become a MO surgeon. Have my own practice, become a partner. [00:03:30] Until 2020. And in 2020 A something, uh, pretty [00:03:35] big happened in my life. I turned 40. Now I know you were thinking [00:03:40] COVID happened and Yeah, so it’s like a double whammy, but I turned 40 [00:03:45] and I’m sitting at home.

I’m not able to see my patients. I’m, I’m [00:03:50] stressed out because my, my income relies on seeing patients. [00:03:55] I have no idea what’s, you know, we all had no idea what was going on and I, I didn’t have [00:04:00] like a way to pivot into, to something else, and it really just. Flipped [00:04:05] everything upside down and it made me rethink, okay, I’m, I’m mid-career.

I love what I [00:04:10] do, but what happens when I can’t physically see patients? What [00:04:15] happens when the pandemic happens? Um, you know, if there’s another pandemic, um, or [00:04:20] I become disabled. And I, I also was having a lot of questions for [00:04:25] myself like. I didn’t look like who I thought I should look like at 40. I [00:04:30] didn’t recognize the person looking back at me and I realized these bad habits that I had been kind [00:04:35] of pushing under the rug.

They didn’t seem like that big a deal, you know, by the time 10 years [00:04:40] later, um, I wasn’t the healthy version of myself. I wanted to be. [00:04:45] All of that made me, uh, really dive into podcasts, into kind of a, a [00:04:50] self learning journey. And I realized I can help people as [00:04:55] a doctor outside of my clinic walls. And that is really what drove me to [00:05:00] start the podcast, the Skin Reel, because I knew people like me, women my age, ’cause all my friends [00:05:05] were asking me like, what’s going on with my skin?

Why does my face, you know, all of a sudden, [00:05:10] uh, wrinkle like this? And I. Was disappointed with the information out there. [00:05:15] So it wa it was, uh, just kind of a journey for me to realize I can help my patients beyond [00:05:20] my clinic walls and, and there was a need for a physician, a [00:05:25] dermatologist, to be giving skin information to the public and yeah, so [00:05:30] that’s how it started.

AJ: I love this because I feel like every [00:05:35] great business, every great story, every successful brand starts with a [00:05:40] story like this. It’s, you know, I didn’t like the information that was [00:05:45] out there and all my friends were asking, and I was asking, and I was looking in the mirror and I’m like, [00:05:50] why isn’t there something more, why?

Like, why isn’t someone doing something about this? [00:05:55] And then you realize, oh, not for me to do

Dr. Mina: exactly. [00:06:00] Someone should change this.

AJ: And I love that when people take on the [00:06:05] responsibility of going, I’m not gonna wait on someone else to do it. I’m gonna do it. Right. [00:06:10] Uh, that’s, that’s my calling, that’s my thing.

That’s what I can do. And what I [00:06:15] love about this particular conversation and why I wanted you to come on the show is [00:06:20] we work with a ton of physicians, MDs, uh, chiropractors, dentists, [00:06:25] but we, we work with a ton of people in the medical field, at Brand Builders Group [00:06:30] and at our sister company, mission Driven Press.

We’ve had the privilege to work on a lot of books and a lot of [00:06:35] different, uh, brands behind the scenes. That have this real [00:06:40] unique expertise in the medical field, but yet the larger, [00:06:45] broader, efficient, uh, physician community isn’t [00:06:50] really delving into this, uh, uh, what I would say in more [00:06:55] mass appeal. And there’s a, what, how dare I say, I, um.[00:07:00]

I think a medical crisis. Yeah. In the United States, in my opinion, [00:07:05] and the trustworthiness of doctors is going down, down, down, [00:07:10] and the, the information that’s on the internet. It’s bogus. Right? [00:07:15] But yet that is what people are listening to because of an influencer, someone they quote [00:07:20] unquote trust versus someone who really should, should be the [00:07:25] voice of this educational information of all of this.

And, and they’re not, they’re kind of just [00:07:30] being quiet, just handling patients in their office. Yeah. And it makes me mad to be honest, [00:07:35] because. We’re going, can someone please tell us what, what we should actually know? Can [00:07:40] somebody give us real answers versus going after fad, after fad, after fad. I could go [00:07:45] on a very long tangent about this, but I’m not Yeah.

Um, but I, I wanna know, like [00:07:50] you really have embraced this concept of like, no, I’m gonna build my personal brand. I’m gonna [00:07:55] put truth out there. I’m gonna answer the questions that people are asking for, whether they’re in my practice coming through [00:08:00] my doors or not.

Dr. Mina: Yeah.

AJ: Why did you do that, and what would you [00:08:05] say to the entire, you know, physician community out in the US of like, why [00:08:10] should they do it too?

Dr. Mina: Yeah, I mean, so many great points in there. And you’re right, we’re in a [00:08:15] crisis right now in healthcare and patients are suffering. And healthcare [00:08:20] workers, doctors, uh, you know, I can only, I’m, I’m a doctor, so I’ll speak for doctors, but I know the nurses are [00:08:25] suffering. I know the people in the hospitals are suffering ever since COVID, right?

We’ve lost autonomy. [00:08:30] There is a loss of trust. Um, it used to be right, like you put on a white coat, you’re the doctor, you’re [00:08:35] gonna do, as I say, very. Paternalistic. And, and so I think physicians were like, well, [00:08:40] why would I, why would I need to put myself out there? And in fact, um, it was really [00:08:45] frowned upon to put yourself out there, at least when I was training about 15 years ago.

If I had told people, oh, I’m gonna [00:08:50] do an Instagram account, um, I’d be told, oh, don’t do that. You know, people wouldn’t take [00:08:55] you seriously. And I have to admit, when I started my podcast, I’m kind of embarrassed to say this. [00:09:00] I had no problem telling. The world that I was doing it, I was [00:09:05] so embarrassed to tell my partner, for my staff to know, for my immediate [00:09:10] community to know, because I was afraid they were gonna look at me like, who do you think [00:09:15] you are?

Are you trying to be an influencer? Uh, why isn’t this good enough for you what [00:09:20] you have? So even though I was okay pub, you know. Doing this podcast to the [00:09:25] world within my community that knew me. I was, I was kind of embarrassed. And it’s taken me a [00:09:30] couple years to get over that and to be like, you know what, I’m, I’m putting out good information.

And [00:09:35] I feel like, you know, I’m a part of this community of a lot of physician entrepreneurs, so I kind of [00:09:40] feel like, oh yeah, we’re all doing it. And then I go and I, I talk with like the rest of the physician community and they’re kind of [00:09:45] like, wait, you’re doing what? I do feel so strongly that [00:09:50] this is what we need to do more than ever, and I love how, uh, you and.[00:09:55]

Excuse me. I love how you and Rory talk about, uh, you have a personal brand. This isn’t a [00:10:00] question of, Hmm, should I get a personal brand? If you’re a doctor, you have a personal [00:10:05] brand, you’re just not creating it. Other people are the Yelp reviews, the Google reviews, the [00:10:10] administrators, your hospital system, whoever employees you, whatever they’re [00:10:15] creating your personal brand.

If, um, if you are not actively curating it, [00:10:20] so. I would just encourage physicians, you know, during this time where we do feel like [00:10:25] we’ve lost autonomy, um, medicine is not what it used to be. We’re having to [00:10:30] dispel a lot of misinformation. You know what? Turn on your webcam and [00:10:35] record, record a five minute, 10 minute teaching piece.

Put it [00:10:40] out there. It’s gonna be scary at first. And, and, and see it as I’m helping [00:10:45] patients, right? It’s not like, oh, I wanna be. I wanna be Instagram famous and a [00:10:50] star, right? Like come from a place of service, which is what, as physicians, we all why [00:10:55] we all went into medicine.

AJ: You know? I love that you say that because as you were [00:11:00] talking I was reflecting back on where did I find my [00:11:05] current groupings of doctors.

Uh, I was thinking about my dentist, [00:11:10] my chiropractor, my, you know, md like my, you know, general [00:11:15] practitioner. And as I was like listening to you talk, I just like, literally gut checked [00:11:20] myself because 10 years ago I would’ve found most of my doctors, [00:11:25] um, through insurance.

Dr. Mina: Yeah.

AJ: I would’ve been like, who takes my insurance?

[00:11:30] And personally, uh, we cut insurance out of our family three years ago. [00:11:35] Amen. I’m like, [00:11:40] I’m gonna go where I wanna go, who I wanna see. Right. And a lot of that shifted. It’s like our current, you know, we [00:11:45] have a, a concierge doctor and I heard him speak. Wow. And he [00:11:50] was speaking to my EO group and I’m like, I wanna learn more about what you do.[00:11:55]

And it was because there was this relationship built. And I think he does just as much [00:12:00] speaking as he sees patients at this day. And he’s built up, you know, other physicians in his practice. But it [00:12:05] was, I found him because he came to speak to my EO group about longevity. And [00:12:10] it was about proactive, not reactive.

It’s like, what can you do now? And there was [00:12:15] something in there that resonated. I’m like, yeah, yeah, why isn’t my current doctor talking about that? And we [00:12:20] left and then we left insurance and went to this concierge doctor. And then I think about, [00:12:25] uh, my dentist, uh, and it’s like, I’m pretty sure the first time I heard about him.[00:12:30]

Was at a conference that he was also a speaker at, but then he’s on every [00:12:35] page of every magazine in Nashville, Tennessee. He’s like a celebrity dentist here in Nashville, [00:12:40] probably also around the country. But it was this. Unbelievable [00:12:45] amount of reputation and trust that had been built up through books and [00:12:50] speaking and podcasting and interviews and magazines.

And it was like I couldn’t go [00:12:55] anywhere without seeing his face or his name. And that is [00:13:00] how most of my friends find their practitioners today. Right? It’s [00:13:05] through who are they learning from?

Dr. Mina: Right. And I, I love how you said, you know, 10 years ago, [00:13:10] right? You, you would’ve found ’em through insurance. But patients are wisening up.

They’re [00:13:15] realizing this whole thing is a racket, it’s a mess, right? You are paying every year [00:13:20] more and more for your premiums and deductibles, and you’re getting less. And less. [00:13:25] And, and so I’ll have patients too where I ask him, how’d you find me? And um, you know, it’s [00:13:30] ai, oh, it’s the mom’s Facebook group they’re a part of.

And, and they at recommend [00:13:35] people. My business partner just saw someone who found him on TikTok, and my partner is [00:13:40] in his sixties, and he said, well, I’m not on TikTok. And he said, well. They were posting about [00:13:45] you on TikTok and, and it was good. So you don’t know where these things are gonna come [00:13:50] from, but why not be the one putting out that information and, and [00:13:55] education, and I see this as this is a free resource for people.

It is. So hard to [00:14:00] find a dermatologist. I get it right. There are long, long waits and so at [00:14:05] least I can put out this free content for people to learn and, and hopefully [00:14:10] get some value. And if they wanna become a patient, then they can, but. I, [00:14:15] I do. You’re so right, like this whole landscape of healthcare is changing.

[00:14:20] Patients want to be more proactive. Doctors. We wanna be more, more proactive, right? Like, [00:14:25] it’s not that we don’t wanna discuss these things, we just feel like we have constraints, but it’s [00:14:30] time that we, we stop making excuses, right? I used to think, oh, healthcare will get [00:14:35] better. Someone’s gonna fix it.

Congress will fix it. It’ll, it’ll turn around. And, and [00:14:40] now I’ve realized 15 years later. It’s not gonna change. The only thing that’s [00:14:45] gonna change is what I do, what I’m willing to accept, and how I’m gonna practice. And [00:14:50] so I would, you know, any physicians listening or, or healthcare workers, like, don’t feel like you don’t [00:14:55] have the power.

Uh, it can feel like helpless at times, but you can [00:15:00] change how you decide to practice and how you educate patients. And that may be on a [00:15:05] stage.

AJ: I love that because yeah, it’s like, I mean, how many times am I actually [00:15:10] showing up in the office? Like I go to a dermatologist every single [00:15:15] year. Right. But I go typically once a year.

Right, right. And that’s just for like, you know, skin [00:15:20] health. But I go see my MD maybe twice a year. I see my dentist twice a year. It’s like. It’s [00:15:25] pro. I probably need some stuff in between, but I’m not likely gonna pick up the phone and call the [00:15:30] office. Um, so how am I gonna stay up to date and knowing should I come in a little more [00:15:35] often?

Did I notice something that maybe I should be looking at? That’s because you’re educating [00:15:40] us outside of the four walls of the office. I have, I have a question about this [00:15:45] because I think, you know, this is an interesting thing and I, I think it’s fascinating for to hear you admit [00:15:50] that, you know, five years ago, in 2020 when you were starting on this journey, you were kind of like, uh, I’m [00:15:55] not gonna tell anyone enough.

I’m doing this. Like, I’ll tell everyone else. [00:16:00] Exactly. Yep. What, what are some of the misconceptions that doctors or other high [00:16:05] achieving, you know, certain professionals, what do you think are some of the misconceptions they have [00:16:10] about personal branding?

Dr. Mina: I, I think the biggest one, and, and this is for [00:16:15] I can speak for doctors, is, is maybe a little arrogance.

Like, well, I’m a, I’m a doctor. Of [00:16:20] course they’re gonna come see me. I trained at Harvard, I trained at the top programs, and [00:16:25] I’ll tell you, when I was looking for a job, that’s when it first hit me. Like, oh, I thought people were [00:16:30] gonna be falling all over to get me to come work with him. They were not. And so [00:16:35] I, I think it’s a little bit of this arrogance, like, oh, look at my credentials, look at my [00:16:40] training.

I’ve given all these talks at these academic meetings. I have, you know, 30 plus [00:16:45] publications, but. Patients don’t know that regular, the public [00:16:50] doesn’t know that, and that’s not really what they care about, right? They want someone who is [00:16:55] approachable, someone they know, like, and trust, really. Right? Someone who they feel like, well listen to them.

They [00:17:00] don’t care if I was, you know, top 10% of my class, right? [00:17:05] So it’s this changing now, maybe 30 years ago, maybe that is what people cared [00:17:10] about, but it’s not what they care about nowadays. They really want to know, like, and trust you. They can [00:17:15] get the information anywhere they want someone who can help put it together in a [00:17:20] unique in.

In a unique way that kind of meshes with them. I’m not gonna be everyone’s [00:17:25] dermatologist. They’re not gonna always like my approach to things. I, I, you know, someone might be [00:17:30] more of a maximalist and they want someone with a different approach or more of a, a [00:17:35] masculine approach. I don’t know. Whatever it can be.

So, um, you just need to present the [00:17:40] information in your unique way so that people who are your people can [00:17:45] find you and they will.

AJ: Yeah, I love that. ’cause I think that’s such a great, that’s such a [00:17:50] great reminder, not just for, you know, physicians, but for anyone in business. We, I [00:17:55] think sometimes we all have the misconception of I will build it and they will come.

Yes. [00:18:00] They don’t, they didn’t come. They didn’t come. They [00:18:05] don’t come. It’s like, no, you have to build it and then you have to go tell everyone that you built it Right. [00:18:10] You know, it’s like we have this, uh, quote in our new book, wealthy and Well Known [00:18:15] that says, marketing is art. There is the art of [00:18:20] what you do, but then there’s the art of telling people that it exists.

Dr. Mina: [00:18:25] Yeah.

AJ: And a lot of us are really good about the art of what we do. ’cause that’s what you went to [00:18:30] school for. That’s where you spend all your time, money, energy, and resources. And we forget now. [00:18:35] We actually have to go tell people that this exists. I am here and here’s what we do and [00:18:40] here’s how we do it and here’s how we’re different.

It’s like we actually have to market our art. [00:18:45] Right? Yeah. And that’s a good reminder no matter what business you’re in. Um, I just, [00:18:50] I personally feel like in the middle community, that just doesn’t happen [00:18:55] near enough.

Dr. Mina: No.

AJ: I have to do so much research on my own to figure out where [00:19:00] to go and who’s good and the amount of people I get referred from.

And it’s like kind of exhausting. [00:19:05]

Dr. Mina: Yeah,

AJ: it would be so much better for us as consumers, the end users, [00:19:10] for you to help us find you, right? So for whatever it’s worth, [00:19:15] for anyone who’s listening in the medical community, uh, it really [00:19:20] is hard because there’s so much to filter through. If you were [00:19:25] more present, you would be so much more findable for your right [00:19:30] audience.

Right. And that goes both ways, right? Um, okay. So, Dr. Mina, here’s my next [00:19:35] question. Now, you know, not to say this is true for everyone, but I do feel like [00:19:40] in the medical world, the medical community, uh, people tend [00:19:45] to, you know, have long tenured careers. Okay? So for [00:19:50] someone who feels like maybe their season of influence has passed.

Right. Maybe they’re [00:19:55] like, well, I’ve been doing this too long. Uh, I can’t start doing that now. Or, you [00:20:00] know, things are just too different now. Whatever they might be saying, right. [00:20:05] This whole, I’m too late. Yeah. It’s too late for me to build a personal [00:20:10] brand, to start a podcast, to write a book, to go out and speak, like it’s just too late for me.[00:20:15]

What would you say to them?

Dr. Mina: Oh my gosh. Well, I, I’ll say I, I feel that way sometimes. I’ll [00:20:20] say, Ugh, I’m too old to start an Instagram account. I, I’m too old to get on [00:20:25] TikTok. My son, my children tell me, mom, you’re too old to get on TikTok, so that doesn’t help. [00:20:30] Um, I had those feelings too, like, oh, who am I at 40?

Trying [00:20:35] to, you know, totally steer the ship in a different direction. Right. Our patients [00:20:40] need this. And one thing, I mean, I have content for days. I will never run outta content [00:20:45] because every time I see a patient or someone dms me a question, or the grocery store [00:20:50] checkout lady is, finds out I’m a dermatologist and asks me a question like, that’s my content, that’s [00:20:55] what people wanna know.

And I think too, as, as you know, whatever you do when [00:21:00] you’re at sort of the top of your, um, career, um, you think, oh, everyone already [00:21:05] knows that, right? Oh, everyone already knows this is important. But they don’t. [00:21:10] You know it because you talk about it all the time and do it. So I think that’s hard for people [00:21:15] to, they think, oh, but this has already been done.

Everyone knows it. Another one I felt was I [00:21:20] see all these like 30-year-old dermatologists who kind of grew up with. [00:21:25] Social media, Instagram, they have, you know, hundreds of thousands if not [00:21:30] millions of followers. And I think I can’t, I can’t do that. And I also don’t really wanna do that, [00:21:35] which is fine, that you don’t have to be, you know, like you guys say, right?

And [00:21:40] brand builders, you don’t have to go wide, go deep, right? And the people. We’ll find [00:21:45] you no matter how old you are. I mean, I actually, some of my favorite people to follow, there’s a [00:21:50] neurosurgeon who I think is probably in his sixties, and he’s like, he’s like a dad figure [00:21:55] and he’s, I just love his content.

He’s not, he’s not doing all the marketing [00:22:00] gimmicks and things to get people to watch and all that, but he has a huge following. So there, there are. There’s [00:22:05] someone, there’s an audience for you. You just have to put yourself out there. And it is [00:22:10] scary, I admit, but just do it because it’s so rewarding [00:22:15] when I, someone comes up to me and says, I heard your, your podcast, you’re Dr.

Mina, [00:22:20] right? I’m not even that big. Right? But they’ll say that, really, I, I listen to that podcast and it really [00:22:25] resonated with me. Um, or when I’m seeing a patient, I can say, you know what? We haven’t really had a [00:22:30] lot of time to discuss this, but here’s a video that you can go watch at your leisure [00:22:35] that goes into it in more detail.

So love that. Again, coming at it from, you’re, you’re [00:22:40] helping patients. We’re not doing this to become TikTok famous multimillion dollar [00:22:45] stars or whatever. And, and not even to quit medicine, right? It’s just another [00:22:50] way to, um, to attract your, the patients that you wanna [00:22:55] see and the people you wanna help take care of.

AJ: Yeah. It’s like, you know. Hopefully for [00:23:00] most people in the medical community, they got into medicine ’cause they did wanna help people. [00:23:05] Right, right. Yeah. And it’s like, this is a way to do that.

Dr. Mina: Exactly. It’s a, it’s a new way to think [00:23:10] though, because medicine, right? Like we are just entrenched in these traditions.

We are slow [00:23:15] to innovate. We wanna see all this data. Uh, and, and again, it’s. It is [00:23:20] changing, but, um, it’s not changing fast enough and we’ve allowed other people to have [00:23:25] a loud voice out there, and we’re sort of hiding behind our white coats in our clinic [00:23:30] and, and not putting ourselves out there. So my, my hope is over the next [00:23:35] 5, 10, 15, 20 years, like this whole landscape changes and almost every [00:23:40] doctor, if not every doctor has a YouTube channel where they give education or, or some sort of [00:23:45] platform that they use to engage with their patients and, and.

The public.

AJ: [00:23:50] Yeah, I love that. Now, you said something, um, a minute ago that I don’t want to [00:23:55] wash over ’cause it’s significant. And for people who are listening, I just don’t want them to [00:24:00] think, oh well that’s just what she does now. This is what you should do. You said, I have content [00:24:05] for days. Yes. I’ll ever run outta content.

Every question I get, every dm, [00:24:10] every you know, person who’s checking me out at the grocery line, every, you know, whatever. Can [00:24:15] you just talk a little bit about. That a little bit more in depth. ’cause I think a lot of people [00:24:20] do have that, you know, kind of fear of, well, I don’t have anything to say. What would I [00:24:25] talk about?

Yeah. Or the, what you ever said. Well, the other thing you said, which is, well, everyone already [00:24:30] knows that. It’s like, yeah, no, everyone you know knows that. Exactly. Right. [00:24:35] So talk a little bit about how you create your content and what you [00:24:40] mean by Every question I get is my content.

Dr. Mina: Yeah. So, uh, I [00:24:45] think we overthink it, right?

We think, um, it has to be super complicated. It can’t [00:24:50] just be, do I need sunscreen on cloudy days? You know? Um, so I would say if you [00:24:55] don’t, if you don’t think you have content, like, um, keep a journal throughout the [00:25:00] day of, you know, if you don’t wanna write, like get one of those. Uh, we’re voice recorders that just [00:25:05] records you throughout the day and plug it into AI and say, Hey, uh, what were 50 questions, [00:25:10] you know, that I discussed today?

You’d be, you’ll be amazed, right? I think we just, we just see it so [00:25:15] routinely. But, um, sometimes I’ll invite dermatologists on my podcast and they’re like, oh, I have nothing to [00:25:20] talk about. I’m like, what do you mean you have nothing to talk about? And I’ll just tell ’em. I say, well, what [00:25:25] do you find yourself saying over and over and over again to your patients [00:25:30] or, or your friends who are texting you, Hey, do I really need this or that?

So I think we overthink [00:25:35] it. We think it has to be these really deep, complex questions, but that’s not really, really people [00:25:40] want, they wanna know. What order do I put my skincare products in? Right. And you may be like, [00:25:45] oh, it’s, it’s so obvious, but it’s not right. And, um, so that, that’s your [00:25:50] content. We just need to be aware.

We need to, um. Not just like, go through our day [00:25:55] and, and like, just ’cause it’s like, oh, here I go, I’m gonna give my spiel about sunscreen. You know, like, actually take the [00:26:00] time to be like, oh, that was a question someone asked me. And I, I really think use one of those voice [00:26:05] recorders because AI will tell you, they will tell you the, the 50 things you talked about with [00:26:10] your patients and, and give you questions, um, or give you content ideas if you’re struggling.

[00:26:15] But I think if you really just. Take a step back in your day instead of just [00:26:20] going through the motions, you’ll realize you have content everywhere. In fact, I have too much [00:26:25] content. I forget. I’m like, oh man, I wanted to do a video on that. Or I forgot that. So I have the opposite [00:26:30] problem. Like it’s, I don’t have enough time to record all the things I wanna record.

AJ: Yeah, I [00:26:35] would just like to what you’re saying, like I would encourage, for anyone who’s listening, who is a [00:26:40] physician too. Just spend a few minutes on Instagram or YouTube or [00:26:45] Or or on TikTok. Yeah. And look at all the false information out there. Right? Like what if you [00:26:50] just did that and said, you know what?

I saw something today that wasn’t quite accurate. [00:26:55] I’d love to put the medical perspective, the real perspective behind [00:27:00] this. Yeah. That’s one thing that I do with all my FRA doctors. Yeah. All these. [00:27:05] Tips, trends, you know, whatever that are happening online. I’m like sending them like, [00:27:10] can you verify this?

Like just real, I saw a video the other day just [00:27:15] because you know, you’re a dermatologist. Maybe you can speak to this where. This guy was [00:27:20] making this whole thing about like all the natural homeopathic things that you can [00:27:25] do if you don’t want to have fillers or Botox or do whatever. And he [00:27:30] said if you wash your face in ice cold water every [00:27:35] day, it’ll have the same impacts as Botox.

And it’s like, [00:27:40] I wish, trust me, I would have a bowl of ice water right here, [00:27:45] aj. I literally like, I’m gonna put like ice in, like what am I gonna, what? How you thinking am I doing? [00:27:50] And so I’m like sending this to all my friends and they’re like, who? Who said this? Where did we find [00:27:55] this? So again, I would just encourage, like if you think.

You [00:28:00] don’t have anything to talk about, just go watch. Yeah. Refuse and go, [00:28:05] let’s, uh, let’s talk about the science behind this. Right? Let’s talk about, you [00:28:10] know, so I just, you know, to what you were saying, Dr. Mina, it’s like there’s content for days, [00:28:15] especially when there’s so much false information out there.

Yes. Or opposing [00:28:20] information. And you know, a lot of people are buying into that because [00:28:25] somebody who has the real truth and the real answers just isn’t out there.

Dr. Mina: [00:28:30] Exactly,

AJ: and I think that’s like, why I appreciate you and what you do so much is [00:28:35] you, you answered the call. Yeah, it’s, I’m not gonna wait for someone else to fix this.

I’m not gonna wait for someone [00:28:40] else to do it. I have this experience, I have this knowledge, I have this expertise. [00:28:45] I believe that people in the medical field have a responsibility to help [00:28:50] reeducate the public when there’s a whole bunch of false junk out there. So I [00:28:55] just, I love you for just being like, no, I answered the call.

I didn’t wait on someone else.

Dr. Mina: [00:29:00] Yeah. I, I think this is where, this is the future, right? Um, [00:29:05] there’s not enough doctors to see everyone. There’s so much, it’s so easy to spread information, [00:29:10] including misinformation. So, um, I know it feels weird for physicians to think about doing this, but [00:29:15] this really, uh, otherwise you’re gonna be the world’s best kept secret, and, and that’s no good either, right?

AJ: If [00:29:20] that doesn’t help anyone. So on that note, I have two quick questions. I know that well, actually I [00:29:25] lied. I have like three quick questions. Um, but I think this one is, uh, this one is [00:29:30] interesting ’cause you’ve been featured in a lot of well-known me media, right? [00:29:35] People, wall Street Journal, glamor. Um, there’s a lot of mainstream media that [00:29:40] you’ve been featured in and I’d just like for you to speak to just for a moment, like, how can building a personal [00:29:45] brand create opportunities beyond just the immediate career field?

Dr. Mina: Oh [00:29:50] yeah. I, and, and I think especially nowadays, there’s so much physician burnout [00:29:55] out there. We feel like we’ve, we’ve done all this training, we’ve spent all this money, and now we’re, [00:30:00] we’re just like a cog in the wheel of this dysfunctional healthcare system. And so [00:30:05] burnout’s a very real thing. And what I love about cultivating your personal brand, it’s again, you are [00:30:10] taking ownership.

I can’t fix insurance. Single-handedly, but I can change how I’m [00:30:15] gonna show up and what I’m gonna do. And, and I just find that so empowering, [00:30:20] especially nowadays. So whether you’re employed, own your own practice, whatever, you can all have a personal [00:30:25] brand and the opportunities that it affords is really remarkable.

I, [00:30:30] um, yeah, I’ve been quoted in a lot of pieces. People approach me, I get approached all the time about [00:30:35] brand deals, which I wanna be really selective. If I’m gonna put my name behind something, it’s something that [00:30:40] I really. Use, I recommend I’ve already talked about it. Um, because again, [00:30:45] I, and I do think as physicians, we, we do need to be careful about that.

Don’t just take everything that [00:30:50] comes your way, really vet it, screen it and make sure it’s something you believe in. Because [00:30:55] people, um, I feel like that is one way to lose your credibility, right? But. [00:31:00] Lots of opportunities can come, come, speak at this event. Um, I really wanna [00:31:05] focus on women in midlife, basically me who are going through, who are, are [00:31:10] noticing changes and maybe feeling, uh, irrelevant.

Like, I’m invisible now. I’m, I’m, [00:31:15] I’m past my prime. And helping them see, wait a minute, you’re not. Just, and, and [00:31:20] how can you still be healthy and beautiful and have beautiful skin and, and really [00:31:25] taking an inside out approach. So that’s really sort of like my platform. Those are the people I wanna speak to [00:31:30] and, and help.

And it’s amazing how many opportunities will find you [00:31:35] when you start putting your name out there. And you’re not gonna say yes to all of them, but. It just [00:31:40] takes like that one connection, that one person that you meet, and who knows, [00:31:45] like, next I’ll be writing a book. Right. You know, all these, all these amazing things that can [00:31:50] come from just turning on your camera and helping people.

And, and that’s really [00:31:55] like, we’re physicians. We go into medicine to help people. So this is just sort of like [00:32:00] Doctor 2.0. Like it’s just the new, the new era.

AJ: Yeah, I love [00:32:05] that. And I think that’s so true. It’s, uh, people are looking for truth in [00:32:10] all different, you know, facets of life and medicine and healthcare is.[00:32:15]

Definitely one where we’re all seeking of like, right, what should I do? This person says this [00:32:20] and that person says that. Um, and then it’s like creating your own brand around like, this is my [00:32:25] take, right? This is my mission in the field. Um, and that does attract different things. [00:32:30] It’s not gonna be for everyone, but yeah, find your thing.

And it does start to attract some of that. Now, [00:32:35] we mentioned insurance earlier, and I had this as a side note. I wanna come back to it for a second because [00:32:40] I think there’s a love hate relationship with insurance, uh, for a lot of us. [00:32:45] Um. I think this is an interesting question, and this is a question that you [00:32:50] brought up and I wanna kind of like retack this.

Again, for those who are listening. [00:32:55] In your opinion, how does building a personal brand give doctors back [00:33:00] control when they feel powerless against insurance companies [00:33:05] and big, large administrators?

Dr. Mina: Yeah, so again, it, it gives [00:33:10] you options. Um, so for instance, I, I have two practices now. I have one [00:33:15] where I do take insurance.

I tend to do more surgery and I have a lot of Medicare patients who are [00:33:20] older and, um, and, and I love, I love that. Patient [00:33:25] population. I really love what I do, but I can’t really talk about preventative and longevity and [00:33:30] regenerative options for skincare in these short visits. So I realized I really need [00:33:35] to have something else where people can find me and come see me.

And so that’s why I also have [00:33:40] a, you know, outta network, uh, direct specialty care practice where [00:33:45] people, if I align with them, um, and they wanna spend, really the goal is to have [00:33:50] sort of a 12 month. Or more experience with me. Where we really [00:33:55] delve into all that is skincare, not just topicals or [00:34:00] procedures like kind of skin health holistically.

And, and so that’s [00:34:05] where I’m able to really take the time with these patients who, um, go over [00:34:10] nutrition, exercise, like all of the things that go into healthy skin. I [00:34:15] think too often we think it’s just what products you put on and, and I wouldn’t have been able to [00:34:20] do that if I didn’t already have a voice out there and a personal [00:34:25] brand that people knew and resonated with.

’cause otherwise I’d, I’d open up that shop, think [00:34:30] everyone’s gonna come hang my shingle and crickets, right? Like people have to know me. They have [00:34:35] to. Trust me. And, and that’s another thing I love when patients come in and they [00:34:40] say, I feel like I already know you because they’ve, they’ve watched me, they’ve followed [00:34:45] me, they’ve heard my podcast, they know my personality.

They know, uh, sort of what I’m [00:34:50] like, you know, they know my kids’ names or my husband’s name. So to me that just makes [00:34:55] the relationship more special because they already know me. They’re already invested [00:35:00] in, in working with me. And, um, it’s just super fulfilling and, and that helps. [00:35:05] With the burnout where I don’t feel like a cog in the wheel now because I have [00:35:10] options.

And, um, so I’m, I, I understand there is a role for insurance. [00:35:15] Not everyone’s able or willing to give up insurance completely. And I do think it [00:35:20] has a role for, um, you know, very, uh, you know. Expensive surgeries, [00:35:25] chemotherapy, cancer, catastrophic stuff, but it’s like, um, you know, [00:35:30] car insurance or home homeowner’s insurance.

Right? You don’t, you don’t use that for your oil [00:35:35] change, right? You save it for, you know, the wreck if it happens. And I do think people [00:35:40] are starting to realize like, wait a minute, I’m paying all this money for interns. I’m not getting what I want in [00:35:45] return. I’m told who I can and can’t see. And, um, so I think it’s.

Patients are [00:35:50] realizing this and physicians are realizing like, wait a minute, uh, I don’t have to accept this. I [00:35:55] can do this better. I can serve my patients in a better way. And so that’s why I’m, I’m [00:36:00] kind of playing the fence. I’m doing both sides, but, um, in different ways.

AJ: Yeah. But you [00:36:05] know, you said something that I think is really powerful.

It’s like you said, I love it when patients come [00:36:10] in and go, I feel like I already know you. And that’s a sign of like, people are opting [00:36:15] in to your practice, they’re opted in to your methodology, they’ve opted into your [00:36:20] way of doing things. So there isn’t like this, I have to convince you, uh, or are you gonna have [00:36:25] to educate you like you’ve already done the education?

That’s why they’re there. Like that’s a pretty [00:36:30] powerful thing when someone goes, Hey, no, I’m here because I feel like I already know you. I already have [00:36:35] a level of trust I’ve already learned from you. So they’re not coming in as a. I don’t know [00:36:40] anything. Tell me what to do. It’s like, no, I’ve been following you, learning from you.

It’s why I’m here. [00:36:45] Right? That’s a different patient.

Dr. Mina: Oh yeah. And, and it makes it, it’s a [00:36:50] relationship, right? And that’s where in healthcare the relationship, you know, now we’re, we’re [00:36:55] providers. You see someone new each time. People are always moving around and, and it’s frustrating. The [00:37:00] patients are like, I don’t know who’s my, my doctor who I’m really seeing and, and.

I [00:37:05] like the relationships. That’s why I love being a dermatologist. I love seeing patients over and over. I love [00:37:10] building that relationship with them and their families, learning about their families. Um, so [00:37:15] to me that’s the rewarding part of, of having that connection. And I love it when they [00:37:20] come in.

They’re already on board and, um, and, and we know it’s gonna be a match, [00:37:25]

AJ: you know? I love it too. You find? ’cause I was thinking as you were talking, like my [00:37:30] chiropractor, her name is Dr. Sarah. And at this point, since she only works [00:37:35] one day a week, I rearrange my whole schedule to only see her. So like [00:37:40] I don’t wanna see anyone else I for you.

And you know that’s because I like her [00:37:45] way of doing it. Now, could I see everyone else there? Sure. Do they likely do something [00:37:50] similar? Sure. I don’t want that. I want her. And I think that is, that’s, [00:37:55] that’s the type of relationship that we should be cultivating, that we should be [00:38:00] creating in our different medical practices is like, they’re here because there is a relationship.[00:38:05]

Dr. Mina: Yeah.

AJ: Right. It’s like I won’t see anyone but her. I’ll schedule everything else so I can just get [00:38:10] her for that, you know, 10 minute visit. But it’s important because I want her. Yeah. And I [00:38:15] think that’s a lot of what we’re seeing. It’s like you gotta, you gotta do work to build that relationship. Yeah. That doesn’t happen [00:38:20] when you see someone once a year.

This can happen. There’s gotta be something [00:38:25] outside of that. Absolutely. Okay, last question. What’s [00:38:30] one small step that a busy doctor could start taking [00:38:35] today to start building their personal brand?

Dr. Mina: Yeah. So I would say, [00:38:40] just start, I started, I, I, I didn’t have you guys, I didn’t have brand [00:38:45] builders helping me.

I, I, I, I did it messy, right. Just I, and that’s, that’s the thing. Like [00:38:50] physicians, we are perfectionists. We want it perfect. And in medicine yeah, you kind of want [00:38:55] your doctor to be a, a perfectionist, right? But. For something like this, it doesn’t have [00:39:00] to be perfect. You, you know, someone asked me like, wait, before you record, do you do your hair?

Do you do your [00:39:05] makeup? I, no, I’ve got like my hair clip. I was just seeing patients. I just threw it down [00:39:10] and it’s about to go right back up when we’re done. Like, you don’t, you know, I did invest in a ring light. Um, [00:39:15] so I do think a or a camera, uh, that clips on my thing, but you don’t, you don’t need that, right?

If, [00:39:20] if a microphone could help but just sit down. And do five [00:39:25] minutes and, and record, uh, what did you see today that you talked about? And [00:39:30] just put it out there. Because at, at first in the beginning, the good news is not a [00:39:35] lot of people are watching right? In the beginning. So you’ve got some wiggle room and, and just create like [00:39:40] a, just create like a library for your patients that you’re seeing.

Mm-hmm. Like, oh, I’m [00:39:45] always talking about how to take care of a wound, so I’m gonna do a quick five minute video. Here’s how you take care of a [00:39:50] wound and you’ve got it up on YouTube, it’s free, and, and then you just start adding to [00:39:55] it. But, um, I think we think it’s gotta be this. Big production. We’ve gotta have like [00:40:00] producers and all, all this stuff, which there are people who, who do that and it looks [00:40:05] amazing, but you don’t, I don’t do that.

And it, you don’t have to do it. That’s not what people are really [00:40:10] looking for. Uh, they’re looking for just good content. And if you don’t believe me, like [00:40:15] just go on YouTube and start looking up stuff. Like look at other doctors in your field. And, um, [00:40:20] sometimes I’m like, oh my gosh, I can’t believe they.

They filmed with, you know, whatever in the mirror that [00:40:25] we all can see. But hey, uh, just do it. So don’t get overwhelmed. Don’t think it [00:40:30] has to be perfect. A five minute quick video on something you talk about all the [00:40:35] time and just start creating a library of content or things you wanna talk about, a [00:40:40] blog, whatever.

If you don’t wanna be on camera, although I do think, um, people like seeing you. Uh, [00:40:45] so I would encourage that. But, um, I would say just start. Don’t be scared. You don’t have to tell [00:40:50] anyone. You can be like me and just tell the world, right? And don’t tell your [00:40:55] immediate people. Um, but I find like patients love it when I can say, Hey, I’m gonna send [00:41:00] you a, a video on how to do this, or I’m gonna send you a video on X, Y, or [00:41:05] Z.

And they love it. And, and I, I don’t think all my patients are older. They don’t know how to do that [00:41:10] nowadays. Everyone’s got a phone and, and everyone’s got someone who can help ’em click a link. Right. So I [00:41:15] find, uh, even my 90-year-old patients, they know how to work that phone and they know how to click [00:41:20] buttons.

AJ: Yeah. I, I can’t, you know, reinforce that more. And it’s like [00:41:25] the hardest thing to do is just to start. Right. It’s like pick one question that [00:41:30] one patient asks you today. Turn on your phone and record an answer. Even if you’d ever [00:41:35] send it. Just start building an archive in your phone. And when you feel just enough confident one day, you start [00:41:40] putting ’em out there, or you just have ’em for your, you know, patient body within the office.

But like, pick [00:41:45] one question every day that someone asked you that you’re like, hmm. I get asked that all the time. [00:41:50] Right? What? I didn’t have to repeat myself 14 times a day. That’s gotta be you for that. Yeah. Uh, [00:41:55] start there. Yeah. Uh, Dr. Mina, thank you so much for coming on the show [00:42:00] today. I think we have so many conversations with, you know, different types of entrepreneurs [00:42:05] and business owners and course creators, but, you know, I haven’t really had a [00:42:10] physician on the show to talk about what is building a personal brand look like as a doctor.[00:42:15]

Like, what does that look like in the medical field? And this has been so refreshing and so [00:42:20] enlightening, and I just wanna commend you for. Again, I said this three times now, but it’s, I’m not waiting around [00:42:25] for someone else to do it. Uh, I answered the call. I started doing this wasn’t perfect, [00:42:30] but you just gotta show up and look at what that has done in such a short amount of time for [00:42:35] you, your practice, your business, but most importantly for all the patients that you’re helping.

So if [00:42:40] people wanna stay in touch with you, ’cause you’re awesome, where should they go? Yeah, so [00:42:45] if you

Dr. Mina: wanna watch some of my videos when I started and wasn’t so good, uh, you, I, I [00:42:50] have an app where I put all my content in one place, my videos, podcast, blog, um, [00:42:55] and my, my email, my contact information is there.

So it’s the skin reel, which I have to [00:43:00] spell out in this day and age, REAL, like real skin. And, uh, it’s [00:43:05] on, uh, you know. Android Apple, uh, you can find it there. It’s totally [00:43:10] free. So even if you’re like, I don’t care anything about skin, maybe you’re, maybe you have a [00:43:15] patient who cares about their skin and you are like, Hey, just go get this app, right?

Uh, she’s got all [00:43:20] the content, you can follow her. But, um, all my information’s in there, the material I’m putting [00:43:25] out there, and you can kind of get an example of like. Is how she does it. And it, it’s not [00:43:30] perfect and it’s messy at times, but I’m, I’m giving real good information for my [00:43:35] patients and that’s what keeps me, keeps me going.

AJ: Love it. Y’all go to the App Store, [00:43:40] the Skin Reel app with Dr. Mina. We will put the link in the [00:43:45] show notes along with a link to her website, social Media Profiles, podcasts. We’ll do all the [00:43:50] things, but you can find all of that in the app, right? So go to the app store, the [00:43:55] skin reel to learn more from Dr.

Mina. Thank you so much for being here. [00:44:00] So excited everyone else will see you next time on the Influential Personal Brand. Bye [00:44:05] everybody.

Ep 615: Optimize Energy, Influence, & Income: Lessons from Ben Greenfield’s High‑Performance Brand

Welcome to the Influential Personal Brand [00:00:10] podcast. This is the place where we help mission-driven messengers, just like you [00:00:15] learn how to build and monetize your personal brand. My name is Rory Vaden [00:00:20] and I’m the co-founder of Brand Builders Group, a hall of Fame speaker, and New York Times [00:00:25] bestselling author.

And this show is to help experts learn how to become more [00:00:30] wealthy and well-known. I know you’re gonna love it. Thanks for being here. Let’s get started. [00:00:35] Hey, welcome back to the Influential Personal Brand Podcast. As you know, we wanna [00:00:40] bring you the stories. Of real life people who are making a difference in the world as [00:00:45] mission-driven messengers.

And today I’m excited to, uh, kind of meet with you, [00:00:50] a new friend of mine, Ben Greenfield, who is one of the, without a doubt, one of [00:00:55] the, the most credible, most followed people online as it relates to health. Uh, [00:01:00] he’s a New York Times bestselling author, if I counted right, I think he has done 13 [00:01:05] Iron Man. A hundred races has millions of people who follow his [00:01:10] podcast.

His social media, uh, covers a wide variety of topics, has multiple [00:01:15] different business models. All things we’re gonna get into to GA today about how he’s built that [00:01:20] business, how he’s built that brand, uh, and what we have to learn from him. So, Ben, [00:01:25] welcome to this show. The best part of the introductions, you called me a real life person.

That’s good. [00:01:30] Better than interviewing the dead ones. Well, that’s, that’s that, that’s true. They’re more engaging. But I think, [00:01:35] you know. Every, in some ways it’s like everyone’s an influencer, everyone’s a health [00:01:40] influencer. Yeah. But there’s a, to me, there’s a big difference. There’s a threshold between, you know, I talk about [00:01:45] things versus you study the science, you do the academic [00:01:50] research.

But then you also model and practice as like an an endurance athlete. Yeah. [00:01:55] Comma, never had aspirations to be an influencer. That’s all accidental. Yeah. [00:02:00] So tell us the story. Like how did you go from, ’cause you were, you, uh, you were a multi-sport [00:02:05] collegiate athlete. Mm-hmm. Tennis, wa, water polo, volleyball.

Yep. And then you. [00:02:10] Went from that. You are like into training. Yeah. And then all of a sudden, somewhere along the way you [00:02:15] got into like teaching people health and then and then more of science and biohacking. Yeah. And, and now [00:02:20] you’re like one of the leading voices in bio. I’m gonna sit here and let you tell my whole story.

I think you nailed it. Um. [00:02:25] Take off my, so these, these, I just flew in from London a couple of days ago, and these [00:02:30] glasses supposedly concentrate blue light from the environment to keep you awake. [00:02:35] Interesting. Uh, so they’re like the opposite of blue light blocking glasses, huh uh. But they also [00:02:40] make me look like a creepy stalker.

I just realized on the puck that’s So we’re gonna take those off. It’s just a side, [00:02:45] a side benefit though. Walking eye contact. Um, but, but they actually do, this is the first time I’ve used them after [00:02:50] international travel and they do work, huh? Like they in, in the past. Um. [00:02:55] What you would use for something like that is there are glasses that you can put on and you press a [00:03:00] little button on ’em and they make bluish green light, which is the spectrum of sunlight that [00:03:05] causes what’s called the cortisol awakening response and get your circadian rhythm back into [00:03:10] action.

Ah, and you can travel with these, so, so when you’re changing time zones, so when you’re changing time zones, basically you wear the blue [00:03:15] light blocking glasses at night, but then if you want to kind kind of take it to the next level, [00:03:20] you wear the blue light. Producing glasses in the morning and it actually works [00:03:25] really well.

There’s, there’s like, I travel a lot and there’s certain things for jet lag that are [00:03:30] called zeitgebers. Okay. Which is the, one of the only German words that I know [00:03:35] besides zeitgeber. Erst, I guess zeitgeber, it means timekeeper and, um, [00:03:40] timekeepers help you to align to a new time zone more quickly. And there’s four of them.

[00:03:45] One of them is light. Another one is exercise, right? So, so doing a movement session in the morning ing, send [00:03:50] your body a message that it’s morning. And by way, I know that the rock always works out. Like when he gets to a [00:03:55] place that’s like one of the things. Yeah, but he’s not, you know, he, he works out like 2:00 AM 3:00 AM whenever [00:04:00] he just works out, whenever gets there.

Yeah. He, he’s just a beast. He goes too. Um, but ideally you work out in the [00:04:05] morning because that jumpstart your circadian rhythm. And actually research as of two weeks ago showed [00:04:10] that when you work out closer than three hours to bedtime, you actually have. Poor sleep [00:04:15] patterns, whether or not we’re talking about jet lag or whatever, just to if you, even if you’re home, um, yeah.

Obviously [00:04:20] the best time to exercise is when you’re gonna exercise, but if you are able to get it done [00:04:25] with at least three hours before you go to bed, it’s better for sleep. But if you do it in the morning, it’ll realigns. [00:04:30] Exactly realize the circ rhythm. And the third one is food. So I do [00:04:35] a lot of intermittent fasting.

Okay. Not because it’s magical for fat loss. Like [00:04:40] you know, the amount of calories you eat and how much you move is how you lose weight. But there’s some pretty [00:04:45] good data on going certain periods of time without eating and longevity markers. [00:04:50] So for like. Anti-aging for, um, the turnover of your mitochondria [00:04:55] and cleanup of the cells.

Having a certain period of time during each 24 hour cycle where you go [00:05:00] without eating is generally a pretty good longevity principle. But [00:05:05] when I travel, I don’t do that. So when I’m at home in my normal time zone, I [00:05:10] get up at some point. Early in the morning I work out. Then later on I have [00:05:15] breakfast, and breakfast is always like 12 to 16 hours after dinner.

So I have like a late breakfast. Okay. But when I [00:05:20] travel, I eat and then go to the gym because eating is a signal to your [00:05:25] body, especially if you have protein in the meal that again, you’re lining to the new [00:05:30] circadian rhythm. Fascinating. And then the last one is temperature. So that means that. Like a [00:05:35] lot of people probably know.

So you said light exercise, food temperature, light temperature, exercise, food and [00:05:40] temperature. So a lot of people already know, like, you know, companies like Eight Sleep Mattress have made this really [00:05:45] popular, right? You get a cooling surface, you sleep in a cold environment. You don’t have a, a heavy [00:05:50] spicy meal before bed.

Back to the exercise thing, you know, exercise right before bed. But when it [00:05:55] comes to circadian alignment. It’s warm in the morning. Cool. In the [00:06:00] evening. So I don’t take warm showers when I’m at home, but when I travel, this is great. [00:06:05] It’s my little treat. When I travel, I get a nice like five minute steamy warm shower in the morning [00:06:10] because it gets you back into your time zone more quickly.

Because you came from London straight here, super cold night to Nashville. [00:06:15] Yeah, right, so, so I pull, yeah, I travel a lot internationally for speaking, for events, for conferences, and so a big [00:06:20] part of it is just like. Getting back on the time zone more quickly. So I, I mean, clearly just hearing you [00:06:25] talk and being around you for a few minutes, it’s like, whoa, like you, you were so into [00:06:30] this stuff.

Were you always just like drawn to like. [00:06:35] What now people would call biohacking glasses. Yeah. And like what everything you’re talking about, have you always been just [00:06:40] drawn to that? Great segue back to your original question that I didn’t answer. Um, so, [00:06:45] um, I was a total nerd growing up. I was homeschooled K through 12 out in the sticks [00:06:50] in North Idaho.

Christian conservative family played violin [00:06:55] for 13 years. Wow. President of the chess club. You know, my happy place was a library. [00:07:00] I wrote a fantasy fiction novel like 400 pages long by the time I was 13 years old. [00:07:05] Wild, just totally not a jock [00:07:10] into into the human sciences at all. And then. My [00:07:15] parents, and actually I like this principle and I adopt this same principle in my house.

Make your [00:07:20] home a really fun place to be so that your kids and grandkids want to hang out and come [00:07:25] over. Did you see, uh, SAHE Bloom’s book, the Five Types of Wealth Uhhuh? Yeah. Great. We are, [00:07:30] we are part of. Part of that. Okay. You are okay. Yeah. So great book. But one of the things I disagree [00:07:35] with in his book is that the amount of time that you get to spend with your kids is goes [00:07:40] down significantly decreased at a certain point in life after they’re 18.

That can be the case, but I [00:07:45] think you can also. Create almost like this pad that, that your [00:07:50] kids want to hang out at and stay home for. It’s so funny talking. Wanna you talking about this? That’s like my objective, but [00:07:55] the, yeah, so, so for those of you that know, so Sahil Bloom, he talks about statistically for most [00:08:00] people, once their kids hit like.

18 and even like back to 14, it’s like you, you, [00:08:05] you, you’ve spent, most of the time you’re gonna spend together. Right. And vice versa, if you’re a kid, you only see your parents like literal once a year or something [00:08:10] like that. But we’re building a house right now. Mm-hmm. And um, the first time we built a house, it was just me [00:08:15] and aj.

We never planned on having kids and now we have two. And so it’s, we’ve spent two years building our new house. We’re about to [00:08:20] move in and the entire process. Has been her vision is exactly what you said. Yeah. She’s [00:08:25] like, we’re gonna build a place that our kids want to come, their friends want to come one day, the grandkids will [00:08:30] want to come, is Exactly, yeah.

All the way down to putting the master bedroom on the second floor. So the kids have to carry me up the stairs [00:08:35] when I’m 90. Um, so, so we, you know, we have an obstacle course and a Frisbee [00:08:40] golf course and we converted our barn into an indoor pickleball and [00:08:45] basketball arena. Cool. And you know. Corn hole and bocce ball.

But my parents, um, they kind of had [00:08:50] the same thought pattern. Like they built a pool and [00:08:55] um, they had us on six acres of land where they were like motorcycle tracks dug into the hillside with a tractor. [00:09:00] We could take our dirt bikes out there. And they also built a tennis court and. I hired a [00:09:05] tennis instructor to come over and teach me and my siblings and I fell in freaking [00:09:10] love with the sport of tennis, like it was the first sport I was actually good at.

I, I felt [00:09:15] like I could actually perform well as the nerdy homeschool [00:09:20] kid in this brand new sport that I’d discovered. And that’s when I got into. [00:09:25] Running up and down the hills behind the house and going [00:09:30] down to the sporting goods store, you know, in town and getting a pair of 10 pound dumbbells that I brought home and [00:09:35] had no clue what to do with.

So I just like lay on the edge of my bed and do curls. ’cause I figured they’d make [00:09:40] my arms stronger for tennis and started thinking more about, you know, putting eggs in the, in [00:09:45] the pancake waffle mix so I could get extra protein. Uh, my, my [00:09:50] dad’s friend was the Washington State power lifting champion, and my brother’s best friend’s [00:09:55] dad was a professional bodybuilder, and both these guys kind of mentored me and started [00:10:00] to teach me about, mm-hmm.

How to build muscle, how to eat properly, all these things that, [00:10:05] you know, no offense to, to homeschoolers. I homeschooled my kids. They’re, they’re 17 years old now and they’re [00:10:10] done, but like. Physical education, the physical sciences, fitness, nutrition. Some [00:10:15] of that isn’t heavily emphasized in the classical homeschooling curriculum, but I was just eating this stuff up.

Yeah. [00:10:20] Nor nor is it in the traditional school system necessarily. Yeah. Now sad anymore. Yeah. Um. [00:10:25] So I, I got to the point where I, I wanted to go to college and, and [00:10:30] study exercise science. Like I was that into it. And my parents were like shocked ’cause they thought I was gonna be like [00:10:35] an author or a pastor or like a fantasy computer game [00:10:40] programmer or something like that.

Like, you know, to either, either a very nerdy or just like classical [00:10:45] intellectual position. And, um, I. Walked [00:10:50] onto the tennis team, the college tennis team at Lewis Clark State College in Lewiston, Idaho, [00:10:55] just like all the other student as athletes, um, declared my major as, as [00:11:00] exercise science and began to study like anatomy and physiology and [00:11:05] biomechanics.

And long story short, as I got my. My degree in exercise [00:11:10] physiology. Mm-hmm. And biomechanics and physiology is just like a study of all the different [00:11:15] pathways in the body that create energy. Okay. And how you train for things like fat loss, muscle [00:11:20] gain, oxygen capacity, et cetera. And. Along that [00:11:25] path, I even made the decision that I wanted to go to medical school, so I applied and was [00:11:30] accepted to six different medical schools.

You know, took the MCATs and did the entire [00:11:35] pre-med course route. So you were heading down that path? Yeah. Totally headed down the path of wanting to go into sports [00:11:40] medicine or orthopedic surgery. And at. I did not get into two [00:11:45] programs that I really wanted to. They were specifically a, a Duke and New Penn’s MD [00:11:50] PhD programs.

I got a, a declination letter from both of them [00:11:55] and thought, well, I could probably make myself a little bit more impressive on paper and reapply. So I took a [00:12:00] job in the private sector after I got my master’s degree selling hips and knees, like hip and [00:12:05] knee surgical sales for a company called Interesting Biomed.

Uh, which, but you got your master’s degree, [00:12:10] Washington. Yeah. You were on that path. So went on, started working in the private sector and [00:12:15] hopefully this is a sponsor of your company. ’cause I’m holding it up now. It’s not but we should, probably, should [00:12:20] be down. Should we drink? We drink that stuff all the time.

They’re great. Um, they’re [00:12:25] lemon. Perfect. Um. I had a total [00:12:30] distaste in my mouth for everything related to allopathic and modern medicine after like nine months [00:12:35] in that gig. Interesting. I was standing there with a laser pointer teaching surgeons how to [00:12:40] install overpriced tips and knees into people. That, for the most part, would’ve been.

Better [00:12:45] served through the type of preventive principles I’d spent the past five years learning, right? Like [00:12:50] fitness, nutrition, movement, healthy eating, good lifestyle, sunshine. Um, [00:12:55] and this is something that I, I think there is this like epidemic of distrust with [00:13:00] modern healthcare, which is just, it’s really like it is spreading and it has hit our house hard.[00:13:05]

We literally don’t know who to trust because it’s like we’ve got so many [00:13:10] biohacking friends and clients, uhhuh, and then we’ve got like all these traditional like [00:13:15] medical people and it’s like, oh man. And then you’ve got like chat, GBT, the internet and all stuff. Yeah. My, my, my [00:13:20] counselors don’t trust either of ’em.

Uh, there’s, there, there’s, there’s a lot of, uh, [00:13:25] myopic and uh, and, and dogmatic opinions in both allopathic and natural [00:13:30] medicine. Everything with a grain of salt. Um, and, and even the [00:13:35] meha movement, I mean, not to rabbit hole too much. I, I wish there was a greater emphasis [00:13:40] on moving more and eating less and a little bit less of an emphasis on like artificial [00:13:45] sweeteners and red food dyes and primarily appealing to like, you know, [00:13:50] millionaire mommies who shop at Whole Foods.

Like there’s, there’s a big part of the movement that is kind of focused [00:13:55] on the things that are pretty good for Instagram clicks. But I think there needs to be a little bit more of an [00:14:00] emphasis on just like. Getting outside. Sure, sure. Lifting heavy stuff, not stuffing your mouth with [00:14:05] so much food on that topic of influence.

Right. So, so when did you start migrating? [00:14:10] Online. Yeah. So you have this distaste you, you go, I have this knowledge. Yeah. And then I’m [00:14:15] like, in this profession, I literally like walked across the street from the apartment I was [00:14:20] living in at the time, slapped my resume down on the desk of the Liberty [00:14:25] Lake Athletic Club in Washington State and asked for a job.

And at that point I had a really good resume [00:14:30] because I’d been like personal training all through college doing. Nutrition coaching, managing the wellness [00:14:35] program at University of Idaho. I had all the, you know, the student athlete profiling. I had the pre-med [00:14:40] stuff. So, um, they, they hired me as the personal training [00:14:45] manager at the gym.

So I spent a couple years at that job. I, I quit my [00:14:50] job in surgical sales. I never reapplied to medical school. And while [00:14:55] I was there working at the gym. Um, I became a fan of some of like the [00:15:00] OG guys in the fitness industry, like who was big back then. Ryan [00:15:05] Lee, Joel Marion, like, like a lot of these guys that had just figured out how to start, you know, making [00:15:10] money on the internet and, and, you know, writing newsletters and I, and, you know, running group [00:15:15] training programs.

Um, and, and monetizing a fitness facility. [00:15:20] In a manner a little bit different than the traditional just bio gym membership and personal [00:15:25] training type of scenario. Okay, so I’m studying these guys, I’m starting group exercise programs, [00:15:30] um, upselling people into, um, like, you know, 3, [00:15:35] 6, 12 month concierge style personal training programs that are bringing in a lot of revenue.

[00:15:40] And is this digital marketing? Is this really digital marketing or more in person? Well, I, I, I started a newsletter, [00:15:45] this is early on in the digital marketing, but I started a new What, this newsletter for the sort of in [00:15:50] 2000 and, uh, 2002. Oh [00:15:55] yeah. Okay. So this is 2000 is very early digital online marketing.

[00:16:00] Yeah, but I mean, I, I even like had my mom follow me out to the park and, and we shot a [00:16:05] bunch of videos and I wrote like a, like an online ebook and, you know, had that up on, [00:16:10] uh, wow, what was it? What was Click ClickBank? Um, you know, and was selling that via [00:16:15] PayPal and the website. So I, so I had a little bit of the digital marketing going on, but that was a total side project.

Okay. [00:16:20] What happened was, one of my clients, um. Husbands, uh, [00:16:25] Dr. PZ Pierce, who was the head physician for Ironman Triathlon and Rock Roll Marathon, approached me [00:16:30] with the idea of launching a one-stop shop for sports medicine called Champion Sports Medicine, [00:16:35] where we’d have like your physical therapist, your chiropractic docs, your massage therapist, your personal [00:16:40] trainer.

Everybody all under one roof. Mm. And over the course of a year, we did that [00:16:45] again for an in person facility. In person. Yeah. We launched that facility and, uh, [00:16:50] then I actually launched a sister facility in Coeur d’Alene, Idaho. And that’s [00:16:55] when I, I became pretty successful in the personal training industry.

I mean, [00:17:00] we had doctors all over the Spokane Coeur d’Alene region referring their patients to us. Hmm. [00:17:05] I was managing the entire facility. We were doing like early on biohacking like. Platelet rich [00:17:10] plasma injections and, you know, high speed video camera analysis of gait. And we would have masks, [00:17:15] people would wear when they came in to measure how many calories they were burning and what their vo O2 max was.

’cause I, [00:17:20] I’ve always been buried into like the, the pointy cutting [00:17:25] edge of, of, of almost like the gearhead aspects of [00:17:30] anything I do, whether it’s triathlon or, or pickleball or, or training or whatever. So. [00:17:35] Long story short is about two years into operating those [00:17:40] gyms and, and I still continue to write a newsletter, operate a little bit of a website.

Um, and I [00:17:45] was doing travel blogging. I was racing all over the world as an Ironman triathlete, [00:17:50] and I had sponsors early on in the day, even affiliates. And so [00:17:55] between running the gyms and then traveling and generating some side income [00:18:00] with. Affiliate marketing via my travel writing. That was my gig. Uh, in [00:18:05] 2008, I was voted as America’s top personal trainer and that really thrust me [00:18:10] into the limelight of being on like the cover of fitness magazines and beginning to speak at, [00:18:15] at conferences.

I think it was actually at, um. At Bedros Ion’s conference [00:18:20] that I was speaking at about how to make money running a brick and mortar personal training [00:18:25] studio. Mm-hmm. That the shift that you’re asking about occurred, like the shift in in online [00:18:30] influencing. So that’s a moment you get a, you get a speaking invitation.

Yeah. Go speak at [00:18:35] an event and you’re like, I look back in my life and go, that was the moment that I started like a hard, well [00:18:40] kind of, but the reason is that my wife was with me. At that event and um, [00:18:45] she was pregnant and she was pregnant with twins. And my typical day, [00:18:50] Rory, at the time was I was up at 4:00 AM riding my bike 12 miles to the gym, [00:18:55] trading clients till noon, heading to the pool swim, training for Ironman, coming back to [00:19:00] the gym, training clients all day, getting done, lifting weights, riding my back, [00:19:05] back home, going for a run, having a quick dinner with my wife, going back into the office, writing my [00:19:10] newsletter, doing my online programming, going to bed, sleeping about four to five hours a night, and that was my life for three [00:19:15] years.

Wow. So now I’m at this event speaking, and [00:19:20] the way that I was raised is that I valued and still value the idea [00:19:25] of being a, a, a present father and husband. And I saw the [00:19:30] writing on the wall that there was no way that the life I was living at that point, it’s not gonna work, which is making me really good [00:19:35] money.

And I was like, you know, famous in my own little niche of the personal training industry was not gonna [00:19:40] work for me to be the dad and the husband that I wanted to be. And, um. [00:19:45] I remember exactly who it was. This guy came up and they called him the Million Dollar Man. And uh, and [00:19:50] he gave a talk. I think his talk was on VSLs.

Um, it was on, on [00:19:55] on VSLs or just sales letters in general. It was Vince del Monte. And so, so Vince gets up and gives a [00:20:00] talk and I’m sitting there in the auditor of this clipboard just taking copious notes. ’cause I, all I’d done at [00:20:05] that point was just like dabbled in the whole internet marketing industry.

Like, I had a little ebook, [00:20:10] I had a newsletter. Um, I had started a podcast. There were like. Four [00:20:15] pod. There’s like, this is early Jillian Michaels, Rob Wolf, like like three or four [00:20:20] podcasts back when you had to code your own RSS feed and submit it to Apple and wait two weeks and if it was over a hundred [00:20:25] megabytes it’d break and you’d have to use an RSS feed fixer to resubmit.

But I would sit there in my [00:20:30] office at the personal training studio just with my, my computer flipped open webcam. And [00:20:35] record podcasts and, and they’re mostly just about exercise science, so. Yeah. But you were also on that, to your point about being a [00:20:40] gearhead, like you, you were also on the cutting edge of digital marketing Yeah.

And testing things and going to conferences. [00:20:45] Exactly. And like learning from Yeah. So I, I like to do this stuff early. My son’s 17. My, my podcast is 18 years old. Right. [00:20:50] So, so even before this point, I was, I was into the [00:20:55] idea of, of, of spreading my message using [00:21:00] this thing called the internet, but had never thought about like.

Doing the [00:21:05] type of thing that you do, which is like, oh, here’s the system, here’s the [00:21:10] process. Here’s like the, the plug and play steps that you follow. And when you do it this way, it actually [00:21:15] works. Versus just like throwing noodles at the wall and seeing what sticks. And so I sat there next to my wife [00:21:20] in the audience listening to Vince with this little yellow legal notepad, writing down every step that [00:21:25] he was presenting about how to do like a long form sales letter for a website for a digital information [00:21:30] product.

I spent the next eight months working [00:21:35] on what I called the triathlon Dominator [00:21:40] package, so I hooked up with disc.com in Texas, we had $197 [00:21:45] physical package, $97 digital package. I took. Everything I knew [00:21:50] about Ironman training, ’cause I was also, I was like a name in the endurance sports industry and I was known [00:21:55] as the minimalist training guy.

The guy who could get you really good results, but still [00:22:00] leave you with plenty of time for your social life, for your friends, for your family, for your other [00:22:05] hobbies, for your career. So I designed this Ironman training program that promised to [00:22:10] get you across the finish line of an Ironman triathlon. With a smile on your face and [00:22:15] still have time left over for your family, for your friends, for your social life, for your career, for your hobbies.

So there [00:22:20] therein lies. Op, the beginning of real optimization. And, and well, yeah, my, [00:22:25] my, my hair-brained idea. Well, well, first of all. As, as I was working [00:22:30] on this program, I drove up and raced the short course World [00:22:35] Championships for Triathlon in Vancouver, BC and all the way up and all the way back I listened to a [00:22:40] relatively new audio book by this guy named Tim Ferris called Four Hour Workweek.

At that point, I [00:22:45] had never like, actually really hired anybody besides some college interns at my, at my personal training gym [00:22:50] to help train clients. Mm-hmm. So. I hired my first VA and one of her [00:22:55] first jobs was to get all the information for every triathlon club and triathlon [00:23:00] coach in the US so that I could contact them, so that they could sign up to be an affiliate for the [00:23:05] program.

Every Friday I spent four hours on this old thing called [00:23:10] forums. Where you used to actually be able to like post helpful advice and have your [00:23:15] link in the bio and get pretty good clicks back to your website. And I would literally just spend hours and hours [00:23:20] replying to people. Have the little link in the bio back to the triathlon dominator, [00:23:25] opt-in page.

Um, all of this was leading up to Ironman, Hawaii World [00:23:30] Championships. Where I was going to race. Okay. What year is this now? And this would’ve been 2008. [00:23:35] Oh, okay. So I, I was, it’s still super early planned out to be, do opt-in pages [00:23:40] and stuff. I had that, yeah. I was doing, I had, I had tweets pre-scheduled for like, oh, here’s [00:23:45] where I’m at in the race.

And, you know, I’d use the triathlon dominated plan and, [00:23:50] and I feel great. And here’s what I was eating. I got this out of the nutrition package from the Triathlon Dominator [00:23:55] plan. All my affiliates were ready to mail out that week and I wanted to launch that week ’cause [00:24:00] that’s like the biggest week in triathlon, you know, the Ironman, Hawaii World Championships.

So, [00:24:05] um, long story short is that week from the race to six [00:24:10] days after the race, I pulled in about $48,000. Now, for me, at the time, that was [00:24:15] basically about half as much as I was making as a personal trainer in a year, working my [00:24:20] ass off. Yeah. And all I’d really done was take the information up inside my head.

Put [00:24:25] it digitally on the internet and created a program that actually helped people and got them [00:24:30] results. And I realized that I could do that for what I knew about [00:24:35] marathoning and swimming and knee pain and back pain. Um, [00:24:40] so within four months after racing [00:24:45] Ironman, Hawaii. And successfully launching that product.

I had [00:24:50] moved all my clients onto other personal trainers in the community. I had sold my [00:24:55] studio equipment, ended my leases, moved into a home office, um, and started [00:25:00] full-time doing a lot of what I do now, right? Continued on the podcast, started doing online coach. [00:25:05] Um, writing, uh, published my first, uh, first and [00:25:10] only a New York Times bestselling book called Beyond Training, uh, which was, I [00:25:15] think that was 2012, I believe.

Um, but that’s [00:25:20] what, that’s what shifted me into the, into the online space, was [00:25:25] wanting to change up my lifestyle and be a stay at home dad, [00:25:30] homeschool my kids, and, um, just kind of start a new chapter in life. So. [00:25:35] What’s the, what’s the, what’s the biggest mistake you’ve made online? [00:25:40] You’ve been, you’ve been in the online game.

Oh, big. You’ve been in the online game for a long time. I mean, like, I probably the [00:25:45] mistake that wouldn’t surprise a lot of people knowing how entrepreneurs operate, but like, trying to do it all myself. Right. So [00:25:50] I ran, you know, all my own PPC campaigns and, and wrote all my own copy and did all [00:25:55] my own affiliate management and programmed all my own websites and coded my own WordPress themed.

It [00:26:00] just did. Everything, which, you know, in retrospect, I think you could [00:26:05] make a case that if you know how to do a lot of that stuff, you know, if you’re getting screwed [00:26:10] over by somebody else who you’re paying to do it. But like biggest [00:26:15] mistake was not hiring early and hiring often. You know, when did you start hiring?

When did you [00:26:20] start building this? Good question for everybody. What when’s the right time to start building a team when you’re. [00:26:25] Building your personal brand or when did you, when did you finally do it? Oh, I don’t know what the right time [00:26:30] is, but when I, um, so I, I basically managed [00:26:35] my online coaching, my writing, my podcast, which I [00:26:40] recorded and edited myself, you know, literally garage band for years and years.

All the [00:26:45] way up until the point where I decided that I wanted some kind of a [00:26:50] brand that existed outside of just me, because I recognized that I couldn’t like even take [00:26:55] a day off. ’cause the entire thing was just Ben Greenfield coaching and you know, Ben Greenfield’s supplements [00:27:00] and Ben Greenfield’s triathlon riding.

And I was even taking groups of athletes around the world on, you know, [00:27:05] like triathlon tours of Thailand and booking everybody’s hotel and plane flight. Geez. Just, you [00:27:10] know, I, I, I’ve always been into creating, um. Multiple [00:27:15] streams of income, but it was pretty much just like me and uh, [00:27:20] one Filipino VA and her family.

And that was about [00:27:25] it until I reached the point where I wanted to start a brand [00:27:30] and I was white labeling. It wasn’t really white [00:27:35] labeling. Basically I wrote a PHP script that would allow people to go to [00:27:40] my website and make an order for the supplements that I was recommending [00:27:45] to people for racing, triathlon.

Okay. And then that script would [00:27:50] go to the manufacturer’s website. Then they would ship that order. So it was kind of like [00:27:55] an early version of drop shipping and these, and the reason people would do this for me was [00:28:00] because these were my sponsors. Like I was a race car, like I had, I had, you know, products on my [00:28:05] jersey and on my website.

I see. And in my travel blogs. So I worked with a lot of [00:28:10] different supplement companies. But then you were actually doing direct sales for them, I mean, affiliate basically, right? Yeah. Basically it was kind of [00:28:15] like affiliate sales, but both much higher margins. So. I wanted to [00:28:20] start my own supplements company because I was seeing how successful a lot of these companies [00:28:25] were.

And a lot of sold for hundred is for formulations. Hundred millions of dollars. [00:28:30] Yeah. Yeah, yeah. A lot. Um. And so at the [00:28:35] time, the supplements branch of what I did was called Greenfield Fitness Systems. [00:28:40] Mm-hmm. Because you’re still in this business today. It’s not called a re dink thing outta my home office and garage.

Huh. [00:28:45] So I hired this branding agency outta Boulder, Colorado to come to my house for a two day [00:28:50] intensive, where we came up with the concept of key [00:28:55] life force energy. We spelled it KI, uh, and I launched a [00:29:00] company called Keon. Um, I didn’t wind up working that long with the branding agency, [00:29:05] but I basically headhunted one guy who I really got along with who was incredible, his name was [00:29:10] Angelo.

He’s now the CEO of that company, Keon based out of Boulder, [00:29:15] Colorado. And so, um, we’ve, we started that [00:29:20] company. I think about seven years ago. Um, and that’s just like a standalone supplements company. I’m still a [00:29:25] majority owner. I don’t have a lot of direct involvement besides occasional calls with Angelo.[00:29:30]

So now I have the supplements company. And then besides that, [00:29:35] um, speaking coaching. Uh, podcasting with monetization of the podcast ads. Yeah. So [00:29:40] walk, walk me through the, how you make money today. Yeah. On a percentage basis. Yeah. What percentage of [00:29:45] your income comes from Right. Speaking books. Yeah. You know?

Yeah. I don’t [00:29:50] know exact percentages by far. Um, Keyon would outpace everything, [00:29:55] really. I mean, yeah. It’s a real business with a real rev. I mean, that’s a product that it, it’s a, yeah. I mean [00:30:00] that’s like, um. Uh, Keon is a math company. I [00:30:05] mean, that’s just, we, we do all direct to consumer and Amazon. We don’t do [00:30:10] wholesale, we don’t do retail, we don’t do shelf space.

We don’t want to deal with product out of stock [00:30:15] or expiry dates. Um, and we want last click acquisition knowledge of where [00:30:20] every single purchase comes from. So, um. We do, [00:30:25] like, I think last report we were at like 29 point a half percent net [00:30:30] profit with Keon, um, with a, with a sizable amount. And this, this is [00:30:35] like direct to checkout.

You, you own control the whole process. The customer Yeah, [00:30:40] exactly. The ingredients, the formulation, you know. And um, so you hired a formulator to help you put [00:30:45] this together? You use it yourself. And I formulate also like I formulate for a lot of companies, [00:30:50] but Keon is, um, like, this is what I think is the secret sauce in, in [00:30:55] the supplements industry is a lot of people will start a supplements company and [00:31:00] have an idea for like super complex formulas.

That look really sexy and look [00:31:05] really good and have like the 18 different things that are gonna help you to live a really long time. But it’s [00:31:10] hard to source those raw ingredients. Keep them all in stock. If one thing disappears, a lot of [00:31:15] times you are replacing it with a less expensive ingredient. A lot of times you gotta have a proprietary [00:31:20] formula, which is not transparent to the customer, just in case you’re, you’re low [00:31:25] on one item and you have to adjust another, um.

And it’s expensive and it’s [00:31:30] risky and it looks cool from the outside. But what we focus on at Keon are [00:31:35] super simple supplements that just work and are clean and fit base [00:31:40] needs, like whey protein, creatine, and not like fancy creatine with. [00:31:45] Unicorn tears and, and all the, just like pure plain, old creatine, monohydrate [00:31:50] coffee, um, uh, amino acids.

That’s, that’s our top selling product. Like our [00:31:55] wedge in the market, like 10 x sales over everything else is just amino acids. Hmm. And people like [00:32:00] them because they help you to gain muscle, even if you’re not exercising, they help with your brain. Like, one thing that’s interesting [00:32:05] about what you’re saying about that, which, which I, I, I think has been a trend but will [00:32:10] continue to be a trend in AI, is going.

It’s a simple supplement [00:32:15] I could get anywhere, but people, I suspect they buy it [00:32:20] from Ben Greenfield because they trust Ben. And they go, yeah, there’s, there’s a hundred versions of this [00:32:25] simple product, but I want the one that Ben says is the one. Yeah. And it’s just that [00:32:30] I say is the one, and that has the subtle nuances figured out, like where the [00:32:35] purest form come from.

Do the ratios and the amino acids actually mimic what’s in human [00:32:40] skeletal muscle, and did we throw in sucralose and you know, acid sulfate potassium, or did we keep it clean? [00:32:45] So. The, the basic idea with the supplements company is [00:32:50] it’s basic, it’s easy, it’s predictable. And [00:32:55] um, you asked me in terms of percentage of revenue, like you said it was a math company.

Definitely, yeah. It’s basically just a math [00:33:00] company, you know, and you’re just talking about a formula of how much we been on ad and what the cost per click is. The [00:33:05] Exactly. Versions the way down. Definitely similar to what you were describing for webinars yesterday. Mm-hmm. And knowing, knowing your [00:33:10] ROI on a webinar is pretty much very similar thing for a supplement company.

Um. That would [00:33:15] be the top source of revenue, podcasts, um, advertising. [00:33:20] And I’d also, how do I explain this? So if you were to come to [00:33:25] me and want me as an influencer to represent your brand, your [00:33:30] product, which is big money in the health space, I feel like that’s it is you, you, you, [00:33:35] you typically are not just going to buy, let’s say like.

Four [00:33:40] weeks of a, of a pre-roll podcast ad, or 12 weeks of, of, you know, like alternating [00:33:45] pre-roll and mid-roll to split test what works. You’re also typically buying stories. [00:33:50] Uh, posts, um, newsletter, either dedicated newsletters or I have a, a weekly [00:33:55] Roundup Friday newsletter where you’re, you’re getting, uh, exposure in that, um, [00:34:00] all social media channels.

So typically like you’re selling a package package, like as an [00:34:05] influencer, like a lot of people think, and this is true sometimes that an influencer’s just like you write me a check and [00:34:10] I do an Instagram story about your product. I’m more selling packages that [00:34:15] get a business exposure across a variety of channels.

Your whole platform, the podcast, the [00:34:20] YouTube channel, uh, YouTube shorts, reels, tweets, the [00:34:25] newsletter, the weekly roundups. So I can offer a lot to a company. When it [00:34:30] comes to how much exposure that they’re getting. So, so the more [00:34:35] channels that you’re active on, the more you can command as an influencer in terms of, of actual income.

And I, I [00:34:40] don’t run any of this myself, right? Like I, I have a, a partnerships manager and a social [00:34:45] media manager and a CEO and you know, and basically now all I do is. [00:34:50] And, and this is what I love about my job. I just vet and try cool products, and then [00:34:55] if I like them, develop a relationship with a company where I’m, I’m getting the word out about them.

[00:35:00] Yeah. How dos do you do, how do you do that balance? That’s a significant source of revenue also, is it just like ad [00:35:05] packages that companies are signing up through? So it’s not really a podcast, it’s just like sponsorships or like an [00:35:10] add package. Right. I, I use the knowledge up inside my head to vet products, figure out if [00:35:15] they’re good.

Try them out, test them, do the whole immersive journalism thing, you know, put ’em [00:35:20] through the ringer and then if I like them, give the thumbs up and the green light on them. And then people get to [00:35:25] advertise on the podcast. So you won’t do it unless you’ve used it, like you won’t. Oh, absolutely not. [00:35:30] And you would be shocked.

I mean, you probably wouldn’t be shocked at that. How much goes on in the industry in terms of people just like holding [00:35:35] up a product or, I mean. I, I won’t even do a podcast with an author of a [00:35:40] book that I haven’t actually read cover to cover. Mm-hmm. Like I am very picky about knowing exactly what [00:35:45] it is that I’m talking to my audience about.

Um, but I also love, like, I love to [00:35:50] tinker and investigate and, you know, yeah. Try new things. And I literally have like, you know, [00:35:55] my entire team knows you don’t book anything on my calendar from three to 4:00 PM ’cause I’m in my little [00:36:00] lab. Trying stuff out. Um, I don’t book most calls till like 10:00 AM because a [00:36:05] lot of my job is just like testing and trying and, um.

[00:36:10] Part of it is the whole like biohacking, immersive journalistic shtick [00:36:15] too. Right? Like, you know, I’ve done plasma replacement therapy in, in Austin, [00:36:20] Texas, the only state where it’s legal and blood filtration, Tijuana and gene therapy in [00:36:25] Mexico and full body stem cell surgeries. Your own little version of a crash dummy Guinea pig [00:36:30] like you.

Yeah. I’m a I, I’m a Christian and I do believe that we need to [00:36:35] take good care of this vessel that God has given us to Amen. Without our purpose in life. Uh, and so [00:36:40] I, a lot of people think that I just go out and do anything, but in reality, I put a great deal of [00:36:45] research and read a lot of studies before I let anyone come near me with a needle.

Sure. Know or, or, or try a [00:36:50] protocol. Um, so. Uh, that, but the same thing. You’re not talking about stuff, the [00:36:55] influencer thing, because I’m not just talk like I’m out there doing these things, right? Like if I’m talking about a [00:37:00] workout tool, like I put blood, sweat, and tears into that thing for three months before I’m actually, you know, [00:37:05] mentioning it on a podcast or doing an ad package with them.

But that’s a source of revenue. That would probably be [00:37:10] the, the second biggest source of revenue. Fascinating. And then, well, I mean, I’m doing [00:37:15] two podcasts a week for 18 years. How long are they an hour? [00:37:20] All of them are an hour long. Yeah. Yeah. That’s a lot. I mean, you know, 50 to [00:37:25] 75 minutes. So, so yeah. I mean it’s, um, yeah, you know, between that and, [00:37:30] and the actual entirety of the package that someone can sign up for, um, it does become a [00:37:35] significant source of revenue that I, and that’s kinda like.

You’re immediate company. When I said I never meant to be an [00:37:40] influencer like that part of my company, I never, like, all I wanted to do was just like talk to cool [00:37:45] people who would normally never give me the time of day, you know, and get to pick their brains and turn around and, [00:37:50] and tell people about it.

And now it turned into its own kind of separate. Side business. ’cause people want to [00:37:55] advertise on that content medium. Well, you’re the, the, the, the, the episodes that I’ve listened to, they’re very tech. [00:38:00] They’re very technical. Yeah. Uh, I mean, that’s how I would describe it as a layman in the like, medical world.

Like [00:38:05] they’re extremely technical and, you know, scientific, I mean, you’re using terms that I’m like, well, I’m, I don’t [00:38:10] even know what that term means. Yeah. Uh, so, so yeah, I should probably fix that. It’s real. No, I mean, [00:38:15] I, I think y you know, like just since we kinda became friends is really when I [00:38:20] started like, uh, I’ve never been into like.

Biohacking and really like, other than being like I [00:38:25] want to be healthy and like very base level, but I’ve never been an endurance athlete, like push myself to the neck. There’s a lot of [00:38:30] deep dark rabbit holes. Like, you know, there’s a lot of I people like Ben, why are you talking about freaking like, you know, [00:38:35] smearing coffee grounds in your head and putting a red light helmet on to, to grow your hair?

And I’m [00:38:40] like, well, because. You know, having done this for so long, I covered like bench pressing and how to run a 5K [00:38:45] like in the first 20 episodes, but you kinda, you kind of move on to things. Yeah. Well the thing that’s going on in my [00:38:50] life, you know, this is, is I had knee surgery, I had, I was playing whiffle ball with my kids, [00:38:55] tore my meniscus.

So to in two spots, you know, I [00:39:00] go in, I talk to the surgeon and they’re like, you need surgery? [00:39:05] Okay. And they’re like. You’ll be better, you’ll be better in, you know, a few weeks, [00:39:10] uh, you know, eight to 12 weeks full recovery. And it’s like, I’m going on month five. I can’t [00:39:15] walk down the stairs yet. Yeah. And I’m like, okay, so what’s happened?

So I’ve got 15 [00:39:20] people going. Why aren’t you using peptides? I’m like, what’s a peptide? Yeah. They’re like, go get BPC 1 [00:39:25] 57, or whatever it is. I think that’s it. Yeah. And they’re just like, go, go get this. And I’m, they all have R 2D two Star Wars. Yeah. [00:39:30] Yeah. I’m like, I don’t know what, I don’t know what this is.

And then y you know, and then I ran, I [00:39:35] met you. And then, yeah. And then they were like, I, I had a couple friends who were like, you need to listen to the Ben Greenfield [00:39:40] episode on that. I’m like, that’s so funny. Like we, we just kind of became friends and, and that’s what, [00:39:45] and I think that’s happening more, is people are going that.[00:39:50]

Zeitgeist in the general population is like, look at [00:39:55] alternative things more than just going to traditional. Yeah. Look at alternative things. And when it comes to [00:40:00] podcasting, when you have your. Um, [00:40:05] you know, your, your, your vocal worm inside the ear of someone for, you know, an [00:40:10] hour, twice a week. Uh, you know, when they’re lifting weights at the gym, there is a trust relationship that’s [00:40:15] built because they know, oh, I’ve talked to people for 18 years about this and it’s my job [00:40:20] to dig into this stuff, and I’ve jammed up these needles into my own knee and, you know, tried these different rehab programs [00:40:25] and yeah, I mean, back to the knee thing, you know, something as simple as if you source it properly, you know, [00:40:30] BPC 1 57 and TB 500, combined with something like.

Ben Patrick’s knees over [00:40:35] toes strengthening program is transformative for a lot of people who just have basic knee [00:40:40] issues and need to get back in action. Huh? So, um, you should listen to my podcast with him, Ben Patrick. [00:40:45] Okay. One, one of the best guys for rehabbing the knees. I will go, I will go listen to it.

Ben Patrick. And then, um, then the other [00:40:50] sources of income and, and, and why I’m sitting here in this chair with you would be, um, [00:40:55] books and speaking. Two, two areas that I will admit I have kind of severely [00:41:00] underplayed. Like I, I speak in the tiny little echo chamber that is like health conferences [00:41:05] with the occasional lucky how they find out about me, you know, keynote that I might give to a [00:41:10] financial group or whatever.

Um, but I love to be on [00:41:15] stage. Mm. I love to command a stage. I love to speak. I was on speech and debate in college. I’ve always [00:41:20] loved to deliver my message in a powerful way from stage, and I have. [00:41:25] Rarely, I shouldn’t say rarely, but I have, um, I’ve inadequately [00:41:30] focused on developing that part of my business, and I also [00:41:35] have, when it comes to books, written for me.

Which means I [00:41:40] like big technical coffee table style 700 page books with every last piece of [00:41:45] information that you’d ever need to know. And, uh, and it’s great when it arrives at my house. [00:41:50] It’s this work of art, but it doesn’t do a, a great deal of favors for the book scan [00:41:55] numbers. And so if there, if there’s two things, two, two reasons that you and I are sitting here and, and why we met [00:42:00] and why I came to you is I want to be a better author and a better speaker.

But, but, but those are, you know, those are [00:42:05] sources of revenue for me. Yeah, well I love that ’cause it’s like, I don’t know a lot [00:42:10] about a lot, but I know a lot about a couple things and those are two things that we, you’ve got the reputation we know, we [00:42:15] know a lot about, so, okay, so let’s talk about that, right?

Like, uh, you know, we have people listen to [00:42:20] this show that have hired me to speak and all this kind of thing. And so I think the connection point there to me [00:42:25] is to go, what do entrepreneurs. And employees [00:42:30] and entrepreneurs, and executives, what do they need to be doing? What do they need to know about [00:42:35] health?

That’s, you know, not the 700 page version, but it’s like, all right, what are the [00:42:40] things that I need to be doing right now to optimize my performance as an an executive? [00:42:45] As an entrepreneur, right? What are, what are some of those things? How do I get the body and brain that I [00:42:50] need for boundless energy at my beck and call all day long so I can, yeah.

And that’s said, it’s like, it may not be [00:42:55] bodybuilding, I just want the impact that I wanna make in life. Yes. Yeah. Not, not to be a bodybuilder. Um, [00:43:00] and, and if you, let me give you an example. If you were to read, let’s say, like, [00:43:05] um, men’s Health or Women’s Health Magazine, or, or most popular. [00:43:10] Literature in the health and fitness world, you would come across a lot of of advice [00:43:15] and admittedly pretty good advice about how to move well and how to eat well, [00:43:20] like.

Here’s the diets that generally work well for people, and here’s the weight [00:43:25] training or the cardiovascular programs that you can do. And that is the message that [00:43:30] a lot of people hear when it comes to health is, I, I need to move more and eat [00:43:35] less, or move differently and eat differently. And that is a hundred percent true.

Ep 614: From Bridal Shop Owner to Industry Icon: How Mindi Linscombe Built Two Empires from One Dream

AJ: [00:00:35] Mindy, this is such an exciting day. I love when I get the [00:00:40] opportunity to interview real live friends, and today is one of those [00:00:45] special days, so welcome to the show. Thank you

MINDI: aj. It is such an honor to be here.

AJ: You know [00:00:50] that in the introduction, I shared a whole bunch of stuff about what you do [00:00:55] today, but what I would really love to help our audience know is how did you get [00:01:00] into the business of owning and running what, honestly, one of the most [00:01:05] successful bridal shops in the country?

How did that start? How did you get into that?

MINDI: Yes. [00:01:10] Well, I was over 20 years ago, recently engaged and started shopping for my wedding dress, [00:01:15] and I went everywhere in Colorado that had a standup business and I [00:01:20] was like, okay, I’m gonna go check them out. And either it was an older rundown shop. With old [00:01:25] inventory and definitely not the vision that I wanted, but they had nice staff, or it was the [00:01:30] antithesis.

It was a beautiful showroom, gorgeous gowns, but not a [00:01:35] friendly environment. And so I remember shopping in both of those worlds thinking, [00:01:40] why can’t it be both? Why can’t it be a beautiful shop? Gorgeous. Products, but [00:01:45] then some of the friendliest people to help you feel beautiful for your wedding day. I mean, I felt [00:01:50] terrible shopping in some of these places, like maybe I didn’t have a high enough price point, or [00:01:55] my size wasn’t gonna be accessible, and I, I thought, you know what?

[00:02:00] There could be a better solution. And so after my wedding, I told my [00:02:05] husband, I said, I wanna fix it. I wanna create something that is both of those [00:02:10] worlds and I’d like to start my own business.

AJ: Okay. I think this is a really [00:02:15] big deal because all of you, uh, who are listening know that we often share this [00:02:20] statement, this sentiment that you are most powerfully positioned [00:02:25] to serve The person that you once were, and you and [00:02:30] Jordan, your husband, who guys are business partners.

You guys are kind of the epitome of that, and you didn’t [00:02:35] know it at the time clearly, but I mean, how long has it been? [00:02:40] We’ve

MINDI: been married 20 years and our shop’s been open. 18.

AJ: Yeah. So let’s take it back [00:02:45] 18 years ago to you guys. You had this experience 20 years [00:02:50] ago, roughly. Probably 21 years ago. Yes. You opened 18 years ago.

You identified a [00:02:55] problem and you’re like, I want to solve that. I want to make this different. [00:03:00] What was it? I guess, and I would love to hear like your thoughts and opinion [00:03:05] of like why Jordan said yes. Yeah. But like what was it about this particular [00:03:10] experience or about you specifically that was like, no, this is a big enough deal that I [00:03:15] actually wanna make a business around it.

MINDI: Well, I would say that I’ve [00:03:20] always wanted to have my own business. It was something that was like a deep desire in my heart, but I didn’t wanna [00:03:25] just start something, you know, in my twenties, that was just a random [00:03:30] start of business. So I was waiting. Honestly, I am a person of faith. I was waiting for God to reveal to me [00:03:35] kind of a need in a marketplace that would match my skillset.

And so it [00:03:40] kind of fell in my lap in a way because I had such a bad experience shopping and [00:03:45] wasn’t finding what I was looking for or the service I needed that I eventually went out of state and got my [00:03:50] dress. And I said to him, I said, if it doesn’t exist here, why don’t we create it? [00:03:55] And he thought it was a little wild because, you know, we were both teachers not making a lot of money, [00:04:00] but we had, uh, put a huge down payment.

Thanks to Jordan on our first [00:04:05] little house, our little home, and we were able to take a, take out, a home equity line of [00:04:10] credit to start this business. And um, you know, this was back in the day of Barnes and Noble. There was no chat [00:04:15] GPT. So I’d go and I’d buy these like business plan books and read everything about a [00:04:20] SWOT analysis and how do I start a business?

And we just won it. I mean. Kind of, [00:04:25] I would say ignorance is bliss because I, if I had known some of the challenges of [00:04:30] retail and overhead costs and things like that, it probably would’ve scared me away. But [00:04:35] because I was so passionate, like you said, to solve the problem of making a woman feel [00:04:40] beautiful.

Accepted and special regardless of her price point or her body type. [00:04:45] That those two things really made me feel like I am passionate enough to come [00:04:50] alongside and create that experience. But then also I, I recognize that that’s a skill that I feel like [00:04:55] God really gave me, and that’s celebrating others. I love making other people feel celebrated, [00:05:00] so I was like, that’s a very natural pairing.

From my gifts and the need in the marketplace. [00:05:05] And my husband absolutely agreed. He just was like, this is very risky. You know? [00:05:10] However, at that time we had no extra mouths to feed and if we were gonna go for it, [00:05:15] I felt like that was the time to go for it. So we went all in. Uh, and I just. [00:05:20] Did a hundred percent the business I didn’t like trickle in.

I, I literally quit my job, went [00:05:25] all in, didn’t make any money for the first three years and just put every profit [00:05:30] back into the business. And then it just grew substantially over the last 18 years.

AJ: So [00:05:35] I think that’s a good quick just, uh, reflection point. If everyone didn’t hear that [00:05:40] for three years. You basically didn’t make any money.

Anything you made just went [00:05:45] right back into the business. Correct. And I think it’s important because we live, which is not news [00:05:50] to anyone, but we live in a, I want it right now world. Like if it, if it hasn’t worked in the last [00:05:55] six months, then it’s not worth it. Or if it’s not succeeding in the first year, then this was a [00:06:00] waste of time and money.

But that’s not reality. That’s not what true success in business [00:06:05] looks like. It’s like it takes time. So can you just gimme a quick idea when you say, we made no [00:06:10] money for the three first three years. Like, take us back to those first three years for just a [00:06:15] quick minute and go, what does that actually mean?

MINDI: What does that mean? Okay. Well first of all, we took out a hundred [00:06:20] thousand dollars in 2007 as a line of key lock on our [00:06:25] house. So if we didn’t pay it back, we’d lose our home. I did everything in the meantime to [00:06:30] create extra revenue. So I worked seven days a week, but I’d teach piano lessons at the night.

I [00:06:35] would do errands for people for extra money. I would do whatever I could. My husband stayed as an [00:06:40] educator, so you know, we’re making 30,000 a year plus these piano lesson like on the [00:06:45] side. And so the first three years, our goal was to pay off the line of credit. Like just [00:06:50] before we pay ourself, we really try to live as much debt free as possible.

So we tackled the [00:06:55] debt and then. After the third year is when we were able to finally say, okay, if we wanted to take a [00:07:00] little bit of income, we could, but we paid that line of credit off first [00:07:05] and we lived very, very modestly. And people don’t actually [00:07:10] understand that. Sacrifices like that set you up in the long run.

So much better. But we [00:07:15] didn’t care that our friends got new cars or were having kids and everything. That was beautiful. [00:07:20] We were like, we see the end goal. And I would say that’s probably one of ours. [00:07:25] Superpowers Jordan and I is, we’re able to really just like be super gritty [00:07:30] for many months and years at a time if we know the bigger vision.

And so it is [00:07:35] something I tell people as I coach, I, I’m encouraging them. It does take three to five years [00:07:40] before you receive an income and it doesn’t just come to you [00:07:45] and it’s a grind. And so if you’re struggling with traffic or anything in your [00:07:50] business, I’m always like, well, how much have you. Done the grind.

How much [00:07:55] have you really gone out there and after it? Because it took us working in the [00:08:00] evenings, working in the Mor, like doing a lot of extra work that other people aren’t willing to always [00:08:05] sacrifice, but now we are reaping the benefit.

AJ: Yeah. I just think that’s just [00:08:10] really important for anyone who’s listening who you just feel like it’s not working right.

[00:08:15] You’re on the verge of giving up and if you just reflect back and go, well, how long has it been? [00:08:20] Yeah. A month, six months, a year, even two years, even three [00:08:25] years. Like I, you know, I relate to that because it was a full five years. We were in [00:08:30] year five of brand builders group before Rory and I started paying ourselves.[00:08:35]

MINDI: Mm-hmm. That’s pretty average actually. That’s, yeah,

AJ: five years [00:08:40] and. We were living off of savings. We had to sell a car. Uh, like there [00:08:45] was a lot of things that had to happen, but it’s like, I think it’s just [00:08:50] encouragement. If you’re listening to this to go, it can still happen, [00:08:55] right? Like totally. Uh, but it also means it requires.[00:09:00]

More of you in some cases than maybe you’ve been giving and that might be an opportunity to [00:09:05] reflect on it. I just think that’s like such an important part of so many entrepreneur stories. We look at [00:09:10] the success that you’re having today and we can compare it. We try to compare it to the [00:09:15] success or lack thereof that we’re having and it’s like, it’s that good reminder of like, I cannot compare my [00:09:20] step one to your step 1000, my year one to your year 18.[00:09:25]

That’s the problem is like you cannot compare those things that they’re not [00:09:30] the same. So I just think that’s like a good highlight moment of, for anyone who’s listening of [00:09:35] like, it might be looking good now. Yeah. On the backs of a [00:09:40] lot of.

MINDI: Man, I think of how many things we’ve missed, aj like you two [00:09:45] probably over the years of, you know, social involvement or, you know, [00:09:50] I’m thinking of the evenings that people went out and we were working bridal shows [00:09:55] or, you know, I, there’s so many sacrifices that you have to make as long as you have the big [00:10:00] picture in mind and the purpose of like, here’s who we’re here to help and we know the big dream is just gonna [00:10:05] take a long time to get there.

AJ: Yeah. And I think that’s an important part of, like, you, you [00:10:10] said a, a key word. It’s like who you’re doing this for. Right. And that’s what makes it [00:10:15] worth it. Mm-hmm. It’s not paycheck or dollar. It’s like, Hey, no, like. I had this [00:10:20] horrible experience. I never want anyone else to have that. And there’s women coming into my stores where [00:10:25] I get to change the trajectory of how they experience love and fashion [00:10:30] and body image on one of the most important days of their life.

Right? Like it’s a big, I think that who [00:10:35] part is, um, a big part of it. Okay. I could stay, I could stay right there for the next [00:10:40] 45 minutes, but I’m not, ’cause everyone else wants me to probably like move on. [00:10:45] I think it’s a really unique thing that Jordan initiated and you [00:10:50] eventually got on board with. How do you use your reputation?

How do you use your [00:10:55] personal brand to actually help you grow your bridal store business? And I [00:11:00] think this is a really important conversation for so many people listening, because I hear all the [00:11:05] time, all the time, everywhere I go, oh, a personal brand is just for [00:11:10] influencers. Or authors or podcasters or speakers, or you [00:11:15] have to be this thought leader to grow a personal brand, and that’s not what we [00:11:20] believe and that’s not what you guys have done.

I mean, you guys really have used your reputation, your [00:11:25] personal brand, to grow an amazing, thriving business in the [00:11:30] bridal industry. Can you just talk about how that has come about?

MINDI: [00:11:35] Yeah, it’s the word you used is what you’ve taught us anyways. It’s just been like brand is [00:11:40] like the same thing as reputation.

And I love how you and Rory put that because [00:11:45] it just simplifies the understanding of why so, so many people I think resist [00:11:50] going online about their lives because either one, they don’t wanna feel braggy. It’s really [00:11:55] kind of messy. ’cause you like live in a community where people know you in real life and then you don’t wanna be like, oh, and this [00:12:00] is also who I am online and try to be a different person.

So we’ve tried to. Show up [00:12:05] authentically online, the good and the bad, not just highlight reels of this is how [00:12:10] awesome we are. You know, we really want it to be, hey, sometimes there’s hard days, sometimes there’s tough [00:12:15] things, uh, and realistic. But I will just say once you can get [00:12:20] over the fact that like it’s a little awkward to show up online.[00:12:25]

You realize like we’re just highlighting the reputation, we’ve been living [00:12:30] out our whole adult lives. We’re just highlighting that on the, the, you know, [00:12:35] internet so that people who might not get a chance to get up close can [00:12:40] feel like they are. Because now if you come into my boutique on any day of the [00:12:45] week, I think you’re pretty familiar with Jordan and I, even if we haven’t gotten to shake your [00:12:50] hand, but people feel like they can trust the business they’re going to [00:12:55] shop at because they know the reputation of the owners.

And so as [00:13:00] we’ve grown over the years, I don’t interfa interface very often with the bride and groom. [00:13:05] I sadly, you know. That’s one of the things I miss. But as we’ve grown and evolved, I have the most [00:13:10] incredible team that does that. However, I still feel like the customer feels close to us [00:13:15] because of how much we’ve shown up online.

And so thanks to Brand Builders Group [00:13:20] and like you said, Jordan, uh, kicking me into doing this, I realize, [00:13:25] okay, this is actually super important regardless of your business [00:13:30] type. Like we happen to be in the wedding industry. Let’s just say that’s on the side. We have our personal [00:13:35] account so that you can feel like, oh, these people, like they’re raising kids, they’re trying to do the [00:13:40] thing.

They showed up at moments that were hard. They [00:13:45] care about their community. What are things that they value? And then if [00:13:50] people relate to those things that we value, they’re more bought in to be [00:13:55] customers ’cause they feel like they’re connected to us. It’s been so strange, even our, you know, marriage and family [00:14:00] podcast.

We’ve had people come to our bridal shop from hours away that found [00:14:05] our YouTube channel, loved our. You know, perspective on marriage [00:14:10] and then said, oh my gosh, I wanna come here to shop. And I didn’t get to personally meet them, but [00:14:15] my staff was like, that is so cool that they felt close to you and they [00:14:20] trusted us.

So it’s very reciprocal and more than I ever imagined. [00:14:25] But basically I would just like to say to people, your reputation if you’re only in [00:14:30] person, can only go so far. ’cause it’s dependent on who you run into the grocery store or see at the PTO [00:14:35] meeting. When you put your reputation online. It’s like a 10 x [00:14:40] effect.

So people are starting to feel like they know you and they can hang out with you. [00:14:45] It’s kind of weird, actually. I was at market last week in Atlanta and people would be like, oh my gosh, Hey Mindy, [00:14:50] how’s you know the dog? You know, like they felt like, I don’t even know them, but they knew my life and [00:14:55] they felt like we were friends.

And so that was cool from a coaching perspective, [00:15:00] because you know. This is a future client that I’m hoping to engage with, [00:15:05] but she feels like she can relate to me as a mom, wife, whatever. And it’s just [00:15:10] really neat because like I said, it’s just, it makes the splash a little bit bigger in the pool of [00:15:15] reputation.

AJ: Yeah, I love that. And I think it’s, it’s like you guys are really. I [00:15:20] think paving the path in so many ways for other people in your [00:15:25] industry to also be able to do the same thing. And I think that’s like a great reminder and like one of the [00:15:30] reasons that I wanted to have Mindy on the show, other than I know her personally and she’s just amazing and a wealth of [00:15:35] knowledge and she’s fun and so many other reasons, but it’s also because I think there is this [00:15:40] misnomer that personal branding is tied to.

All these other [00:15:45] things. Oh, you have to be a course creator and all these other things, and it’s just not true. It’s like [00:15:50] we all have a personal brand and you can leverage it to the benefit of what you’re doing right [00:15:55] now, of helping people get to know you, like you, and trust you, thus [00:16:00] then introducing your business to them.

But this is about you as a human, not what you [00:16:05] sell. It’s about right. Holding real life human connection in a way that we’ve never been able to do [00:16:10] it easier, faster, and cheaper than we can do right now online. And [00:16:15] there’s a, an acceleration of trust and reputation that happens globally [00:16:20] in some cases, that then allows you to grow your business because you’re allowing [00:16:25] people to get to know you.

Yes, there’s a lot of power in that. So [00:16:30] much power. I think you’re doing it really, really well now. You guys have, you [00:16:35] guys were already super successful at your business and already a [00:16:40] leading expert in the industry long before we encountered you at Brand Builders Group. So one of the [00:16:45] questions I have is, um, this concept that I, I think a lot of people struggle with, and I say this [00:16:50] from the Brand Builders Group community, but not just that community and a lot of [00:16:55] communities I’m a part of where people really struggle with this idea of imposter syndrome.

They [00:17:00] think that this knowledge they have is common knowledge and they don’t really think that what they [00:17:05] do or they have done is all that special or unique or special. Thus, they don’t believe they really [00:17:10] have the power to help someone else. So the question I have for you is, [00:17:15] and not just in a business sense, but in just like a human sense of like what were some of the [00:17:20] pivotal moments that you’ve had in business and in family [00:17:25] where you had this idea or you started to believe it’s like.

This can [00:17:30] translate into real thought leadership for an industry. It’s like what we’re doing is different. [00:17:35] Like there is something that’s working here that could help other bridal shop owners. [00:17:40] Like what were some of the things that led you to go, wait, maybe we are doing [00:17:45] something really unique. Maybe we are doing something that other people aren’t doing.

Because [00:17:50] you guys are, and you’re helping other bridal shop owners from around the country, like that [00:17:55] was an evolution of expertise and experience and success. So [00:18:00] what were some of those moments that you were like, wait, maybe we are doing something right [00:18:05] here. Maybe it could help someone else.

MINDI: Yeah, I mean, gosh, there’s a lot of [00:18:10] moments over the years that I think of when you ask me that question.

Anything from when I’m [00:18:15] seeing the amount of traffic and the amount of brides coming from so far away to have this experience, [00:18:20] and I hear that this door’s in the same town were dead and had no appointments, like I’m like. [00:18:25] We had 40 brides today and I would hear that they had none. [00:18:30] And I was like, that’s very different.

That’s interesting. Right? So lots of Saturdays like that over the [00:18:35] years. And I would hear that not from brides. I would hear that from brand reps. You know how they travel [00:18:40] from location to location to sell you their products. And they would go from their store to my store [00:18:45] and say, there’s nobody at that store.

What are you doing here? What’s going on? Like, what is the [00:18:50] juice? Are you serving people here? I was like, nothing. We’re just like doing our very best. But so I [00:18:55] started to realize, okay, in my own local market we were. We were just seeing so [00:19:00] much success with our processes of, you know, and I don’t wanna say sales, but just in [00:19:05] the sense of we are driving a ton of traffic, we were unique in how we [00:19:10] serve them.

Our experience is super personalized and we were just seeing a tremendous amount of [00:19:15] success. Then I would go to our industry market events, which is where we go and buy. [00:19:20] And you know, you start to have people come up to you and ask you questions like, Hey. How are you guys doing this? [00:19:25] Or, I saw you did this on Facebook, tell me about that, or what’s this sale about?

And then eventually, uh, [00:19:30] a friend of mine asked me to do a little speaking session and I used to be an [00:19:35] educator and I love training and development, so I was like, sure. So I spoke at Atlanta Merchandise [00:19:40] Mart for bridal shop owners, and it was kind of the first spark of, I, I [00:19:45] wasn’t coaching, I wasn’t speaking or anything.

But they asked me to speak on some marketing tips. [00:19:50] I did it, and afterwards I was like, swarmed by all these owners that were like, we’ve never [00:19:55] heard any of this before. Nobody’s ever talked about the way you explain how you promote [00:20:00] your, your, um, something new is the name of my bridal shop. Nobody’s ever talked about how they promote their [00:20:05] business this way.

Will you do some speaking sessions for our store? We, and so there just [00:20:10] started to be this little bit of a whisper. A clue that like this is [00:20:15] needed in our industry. Nobody’s thinking outside the box. What’s tricky is [00:20:20] when you’re industry specific, we all start to just look at each other for ideas. And [00:20:25] I would just say to you is that for me, since the beginning, since day one, I’ve never wanted to [00:20:30] go to my own industry to learn ideas.

I’ve been like a much wider. [00:20:35] Bigger net kind of thinker. I read books, not about bridal. I like to [00:20:40] expose myself to different ways of thinking. And so I’ve always said like, oh man, that’s how that works in the [00:20:45] tire industry. That’s really interesting. You know, if I go get my tires changed, I’d be like, how are [00:20:50] they selling these aftercare packages?

Let me listen to their spiel and I would listen to it. I’d go to a spa [00:20:55] and I’d listen to them do this whole interview with me about my skin type, and then make recommendations to [00:21:00] me about what type of products I need after my massage. And I was like. That was really fascinating. Can you say it [00:21:05] again and maybe like, you’re so weird.

You’re so weird. But I’m like taking notes [00:21:10] wherever I go because then what I would do is I’d say, okay, the world at large, [00:21:15] how are they successful in their experience? They provide customers so. [00:21:20] It doesn’t have to just be a Disney world, but everywhere you go you can like be a learner, an observer. And [00:21:25] then I would take it back to bridal and I’d tweak it and make it my own.

And so I think that’s [00:21:30] where I was different in this industry is that, like I said, everybody just kind of copies each [00:21:35] other. And maybe this is true for most industries, but I was like, no, I wanna kind of reach out. And [00:21:40] bring good practices and apply it to, um, our industry. And so I’m very different [00:21:45] and that’s why I named my brand something new.

I’m always trying something new. I’m always [00:21:50] exploring how can we do it better and what does a customer need today? ’cause it’s very different than what [00:21:55] they needed 18 years ago. What they need today. And so every year we’re evaluating how can we [00:22:00] be the best, how can we do better for our customer and get out of the way, you [00:22:05] know what I’m saying?

Like not make it about ourselves. So I would say that was a spark maybe six years ago [00:22:10] and um, slowly and truly started coaching, teaching. And now we have our own company and it’s [00:22:15] just pretty, pretty delightful. ’cause to your point, we’re serving who we once were. [00:22:20]

AJ: Yeah. You know, I think this is really.

Really [00:22:25] important for those of you who are listening, who undervalue and underestimate [00:22:30] what you do, that is unique, special, and [00:22:35] extraordinary. And I think that a lot of people, they [00:22:40] undervalue their own experience, their own expertise, and what’s [00:22:45] ordinary to you is most often extraordinary to someone [00:22:50] else.

You, you were able to pick up what was ordinary in your [00:22:55] everyday life, but when you went out to others around you, it was extraordinary. Right? But you also [00:23:00] made the decision of I gotta do something about this. Right? This isn’t just, [00:23:05] wasn’t just a compliment when you were out at market, this was like, no, there, there there’s something [00:23:10] here.

So today you guys still run the something new bridal shop. [00:23:15] Yep. Also have a thriving coaching business, coaching other bridal shop [00:23:20] owners. How was the evolution from, you know, 18 years [00:23:25] as bridal shop owners, which you still are using your personal brand to grow that business, [00:23:30] make it what it is today, which was again, already on a [00:23:35] fast path to success, to also being like, okay, now there’s this other thing [00:23:40] too that we’re gonna add in because you, it wasn’t.

You diverged. It wasn’t a divergent from [00:23:45] what you were doing. You’re still serving the same industry. You’re still serving a segment of the same people. It’s [00:23:50] just really more in connection with the, you know, it’s like you, you were [00:23:55] serving the person who used to be as a young bride. Now you’re serving the person who used to be as a struggling [00:24:00] bridal shop owner, right?

Mm-hmm. And so there was evolution in the who, some addition to [00:24:05] that. You didn’t have to do that. Y could have just like coasted off into the [00:24:10] sunset. Yeah. Had a really awesome business. I think about that sometimes.

MINDI: Like why did I [00:24:15] go for the hard, you know, I’m joking.

AJ: Like, what was it in all of that? Because I think a lot [00:24:20] of us are struggling with that.

It’s like, should I go do this new thing? Or I had a conversation [00:24:25] with, uh, a friend of mine who’s an EO last. Friday at a coffee shop, [00:24:30] literally. And it was, he just had a successful exit from his business and he is like, [00:24:35] now I could just go start another one of those businesses, but I don’t really want to.

[00:24:40] And he goes, but you know, it’s like this whole idea of coaching and consulting. He’s like, I mean, I feel [00:24:45] like what I do is pretty basic and I’m like. Okay, well, as [00:24:50] a avatar, I will tell you the words that you just used. I feel like I’m hearing Chinese, like I don’t even know what you’re [00:24:55] talking about when it comes to all this cybersecurity stuff.

So there’s just still this segment of [00:25:00] people underestimate the power of the knowledge they have and how it can help someone else. You guys [00:25:05] saw it. You noticed it, then you did something different. You did something about it, and you started a whole new [00:25:10] branch of business coaching bridal shop owners. So.

How did that happen? [00:25:15] Like how did you go from this brick and mortar business to now having a hugely [00:25:20] successful and growing bridal shop coaching business?

MINDI: That’s a great question. You [00:25:25] know, it kind of goes back to that six years ago when I was inundated with people after I [00:25:30] spoke, it was just enough to say, I’m kind of interested in this.

Also, I [00:25:35] pay attention to clues. I feel like God gives us little clues along our lifetime. And [00:25:40] remember, I, I used to be a teacher. My master’s degree is in education, specifically in [00:25:45] curriculum design. Which is crazy and I didn’t know how I would use that, but [00:25:50] fast forward, I’m sitting there going like, my passion and skillset, [00:25:55] natural skillset is training and development.

I know how to do something that these people are asking me about. [00:26:00] This kind of makes sense here. So after that event, I did a few one-on-one [00:26:05] coaching experiences, saw a lot of traction, and a really successful firm [00:26:10] in the bridal industry. Asked me to be a coach for bridal owners, [00:26:15] just as a one-on-one consultant.

So I said, Hey, that’s probably the next step. [00:26:20] It’ll put me on another person’s stage. It’s a good open door to start [00:26:25] and I did three years of one-on-one coaching with dozens and dozens of clients, [00:26:30] probably 80 people. I would look back and say, and I was really a student at the [00:26:35] time as well, like while I was coaching them, I was studying and taking diligent [00:26:40] notes on this avatar of like, what are their biggest pain points?

What are they [00:26:45] struggling with? What do they show up every single week and ask me about? So I was. Again, [00:26:50] delayed gratification, right? I was like taking in thought on, if I were [00:26:55] to really solve their problems, do they have enough, consistently same problems [00:27:00] across this big grouping of people? And after the three year, you know, coaching [00:27:05] one-on-one, which was so rewarding, but also to be honest, very exhausting.

It was the [00:27:10] grind, I mean. I would come home sometimes from eight hours of one-on-ones and I [00:27:15] couldn’t even like talk or listen and I realized I had to pause. I had to pause. It was too [00:27:20] much. ’cause I was also running my shop and I have four little kids, so I paused [00:27:25] and took a like three month sabbatical and said, I’m, I’m.

I left the [00:27:30] firm. Super great terms. We high five each other all the time. They’re awesome. And the three month [00:27:35] sabbatical was time for me to reflect and pray. Like what does it look like next for [00:27:40] me? I knew all this information. I knew how I could serve people, but in order to [00:27:45] scale, I couldn’t develop just hourly coaching plans anymore because you have a [00:27:50] limit on your time.

There’s only a certain amount of time you have every week, so I could only serve [00:27:55] however many people I had hours to serve. So it’s almost like a counseling session where it’s [00:28:00] like, once you’re booked, you’re booked. And so I was like, I have more people wanting what I know and what I [00:28:05] wanna share than the amount of hours I have in a week.

So now I think it’s time to launch something [00:28:10] else. So in that sabbatical, I really [00:28:15] spent time like, you know, interviewing really smart people, uh, praying, reading books. [00:28:20] How would it look? To solve the problem in more of a digital [00:28:25] format. So I created almost like a Netflix for bridal shop owners where you log into a [00:28:30] platform and you can search a keyword of whatever you’re struggling with.

And I have it all super [00:28:35] organized with over 60 courses and downloadables and templates and everything you can imagine from [00:28:40] the years of one-on-one coaching to know what their problem really is. Then I [00:28:45] created a solution that now is like a forever living database of my life. [00:28:50] Work on how to be a successful bridal shop owner.

So now we have people from New [00:28:55] Zealand, uk, Ireland, Scotland, Canada, US all over the world, over a hundred clients full on [00:29:00] in our program. And not just doing that is really cool. ’cause aj, I decided to be a [00:29:05] practitioner coach, meaning I don’t want to leave my bridal shop to just coach. My bridal shop [00:29:10] has become, in essence, a hub of research to try out [00:29:15] my solutions that I come up with and my crazy mind.

And I, I try everything out for a year [00:29:20] before I introduce it to my clients and I make sure it’s. Actually gonna work. [00:29:25] And then I teach on it monthly live. I solve problems every month and continue to add to the, [00:29:30] to the platform. So it’s just been really cool ’cause now it can scale. There’s no limit. I could [00:29:35] serve as many people as they want, like as many people as want that want to become [00:29:40] profitable in their business and have a bridal shop that they enjoy, that they don’t [00:29:45] resent because it’s weekends.

Every weekend I get to, I’m so fortunate I get to. [00:29:50] Use my shop as like a hub of education. And so our team is just [00:29:55] on fire in the sense of they realize they’re not just making a difference in the brides that we [00:30:00] serve, but they’re actually making a difference in the industry. And we’re teaching people how it can look [00:30:05] different and it doesn’t have to die.

Like most retail, it can be very focused on [00:30:10] providing a bride the moment she’s always dreamed of. And we’re hoping that never goes away. [00:30:15]

AJ: Oh my gosh, y’all, if y’all do not. Feel inspired. [00:30:20] Hearing that. Then I need you to pause, rewind, and listen to that again, because [00:30:25] I think this is a really important part of the future of business, right?

There is the [00:30:30] business, but then there is the benefit, the gift, the responsibility of teaching people what [00:30:35] you have learned. That doesn’t mean you have to leave your business, sell your business, retire [00:30:40] from your business. There is a way for you to be a practitioner and a coach. And I [00:30:45] think that’s a really important thing because a lot, we hear a lot of, well, you have to [00:30:50] go all in and you have to leave this one thing to do the next thing.

And sometimes that’s true, [00:30:55] but there’s another way too of going, I can have an [00:31:00] established business, have the business run and still do the other things that I feel [00:31:05] called to do that are. Forwarding the influence that are making a [00:31:10] bigger impact and that my team actually gets to come with me. It’s not something I’m doing [00:31:15] by myself.

It’s something that the entire team is coming along the For the [00:31:20] ride. I think that’s a really big deal and it’s a great reminder to me, and this is what I wrote [00:31:25] down when you were talking, is no matter what you’ve done, no matter what you’ve been [00:31:30] through. No matter your successes or failures or all the things you tried, [00:31:35] the things that you kept doing, the things that you stopped doing, nothing is for n all your [00:31:40] experience, all your trials, all your efforts, all your ex, you know, like, you know, [00:31:45] temporary, uh, endeavors, like whatever it is that we’re all going through, they’re like, oh, that’s a waste of time, [00:31:50] or That didn’t work.

It’s like, that’s not true. All the things that you have done and are doing [00:31:55] currently are preparing you for what’s next. And it, it’s a gift and [00:32:00] a responsibility to not forget that and to actually use it to do something greater.

MINDI: [00:32:05] Totally agree. I couldn’t agree more. He hasn’t like, I don’t feel like God has wasted a [00:32:10] thing or a moment, or a relationship or a failure.

All of [00:32:15] it can be used as lessons learned and applied for your future [00:32:20] decision making skills. So it’s, it’s been a ride to say the least, but it’s been [00:32:25] a really good one.

AJ: Also for the benefit of others. Yeah. Like [00:32:30] I, I love that old saying, it’s like you do not have to recreate the wheel. Right? There have been enough [00:32:35] people who’ve tweaked and fine tuned the wheel that you can learn from them.

You just [00:32:40] have to have enough people who go, I want to show you. I want to teach you, [00:32:45] and this doesn’t apply just to the bridal shop industry. This could be any industry. If you’re listening of [00:32:50] going, how could I start teaching all that? I have learned all that I know [00:32:55] in addition to not leaving the main thing, but I I can also create this thought [00:33:00] leadership.

Yeah. And education path too.

MINDI: Yeah. I think of all the mentors and business coaches [00:33:05] I’ve had, I’m sure you as well, and. I think that’s also a part of just a [00:33:10] gratitude piece here of saying like, I’m so thankful for all the people that [00:33:15] have shown me the way, even though it wasn’t maybe industry specific, that’s what I was searching for, but [00:33:20] because they did shed light or mentor me in a certain way or really, [00:33:25] you know, like I said, teach me new things.

I was so grateful that now it’s [00:33:30] almost like a duty and a responsibility to give back. And there’s a quote I used to always. [00:33:35] Tell myself when I was hungry for more and it was, life’s too [00:33:40] short to earn, to learn your own lessons. So you’re gonna learn [00:33:45] your own lessons, but why not also learn from others?

Because that is the [00:33:50] speed, like where I am today. 18 years is really where some people are at 40. [00:33:55] It’s only because I learned from other people’s lessons and I was so hungry. I asked a lot of [00:34:00] questions and I sought out education. There’s just so much value in learning from other people’s [00:34:05] missteps in addition to your own, because I basically doubled my time, right?

Like I, I learned from [00:34:10] their lessons and I learned from mine. So I just, like I said, I’m really grateful for the [00:34:15] mentors and coaches I’ve had along the way, and I hope that I can be that type of a person for [00:34:20] someone else.

AJ: I love that, and you’re just so great at that in general. Okay. [00:34:25] I have three questions that I hope we can tackle in the next 10 minutes.

So if I move [00:34:30] quickly, that’s why, because I’m watching the clock and I know that we’re, we’re running out of time, but I have three really important [00:34:35] questions that I think are super pertinent to this conversation. So here’s the first one. What [00:34:40] advice would you give to someone who wants to move from business ownership?[00:34:45]

Into industry thought leader,

MINDI: I would say to find where [00:34:50] those people gather and go start to talk to them. [00:34:55] Mm. So this could be a conference, this could be a Facebook group [00:35:00] online. This could be wherever they are. You just need to start by having [00:35:05] conversations and get to know what are they struggling with.

Because to your point, a [00:35:10] lot of times we think, oh, that’s obvious. Sometimes it’s not what’s [00:35:15] obvious to them as a successful person in our industry might be something that they’re struggling with. So I [00:35:20] think you need to get on the ground and really start to understand their problems. And that only starts with [00:35:25] conversations.

So if you can go in person, I’m a big believer of in person. [00:35:30] Experiences. Sometimes they have, you know, real estate network gatherings or things like that. And just [00:35:35] get around the people that are struggling, listen to their problems. And then the second piece to [00:35:40] that is start to serve them with free resources.

So if that’s free phone [00:35:45] calls, if that’s free downloadables, if that’s free website with a whole bunch of re like [00:35:50] tons of tips, however you can serve them, because at first. I did it for free. You [00:35:55] know what I’m saying? Like after I spoke at that first time and these stores started calling me with questions, I would just [00:36:00] answer them.

I wanna help you. I would just answer them. But then I kept track of what they were struggling with [00:36:05] so that I was prepared for more things to come.

AJ: Yeah, I think that’s good. I [00:36:10] mean, step one from going from business owner to industry, thought leader is like, you gotta know what the [00:36:15] industry is struggling with.

What are people like you struggling with? What problems do they have? How would you [00:36:20] answer them In part two is and start answering them, right? Yes, yes. Answer the [00:36:25] questions. Share what you’ve learned. Be on panels, speak at conferences, take phone calls, answer [00:36:30] dms. It’s just start giving away the knowledge you have for free.

MINDI: And I thought of [00:36:35] one more thing. A lot of industries have publications like Little Specialty magazines, and so you [00:36:40] can offer to be a guest columnist. Like every week you could say, Hey, I would [00:36:45] be totally fine just for free, providing you content every time you release a [00:36:50] magazine or a publication. And even though some of those are online, I just think that’s another place to show [00:36:55] up.

They appreciate the not having to write an article to fill page seven every week, you [00:37:00] know? But I’m just saying these are some really easy ways to just. Start to show up [00:37:05] as a person that does know what they’re talking about and provides free education and eventually [00:37:10] you can charge.

AJ: Love that. So, so good.

You just gotta make the effort, [00:37:15] right? Reach out. Yes. Make the effort, do the thing. Okay. Second questions. How can [00:37:20] leaders, business owners, but we’re say leaders identify when it’s time to scale their [00:37:25] influence beyond their company. When did you know like, okay, [00:37:30] this isn’t just something I’m doing in my company anymore.

I’m gonna scale this influence what I’ve learned [00:37:35] outside of the company.

MINDI: Well, I would say in your market, if [00:37:40] you’re kind of dominating, you know, not to be weird, but over the 18 years we’ve seen a [00:37:45] lot of competitors come and go, and so that was a key indicator that like we’re doing [00:37:50] something right because we’ve stood the test of time.

Right, and we’ve seen [00:37:55] consistent growth every year. So it’s like, okay, you might be doing something right. If you’ve seen [00:38:00] consistent growth every year and you have the longevity that has surpassed other [00:38:05] people trying to do the same work, then when you start to get asked questions, [00:38:10] that’s your clue.

AJ: Good.

Those are three things I’m gonna, I’m gonna recap for [00:38:15] everyone. Number two, it’s like when you’ve like really tested the [00:38:20] time. Test. Right? It’s like there’s longevity, like you’ve passed the time [00:38:25] test like you’re still in business, right? I think this is a good reminder. Yeah. It’s the majority of all [00:38:30] small businesses fail in the first five years.

Mm-hmm. When I say the majority, it’s like [00:38:35] 90% of small businesses fail in the first nine years, and less than 10% may [00:38:40] get past 10 years. So that longevity of just like, again, a [00:38:45] reminder, it’s like if it’s year one, maybe not it, but it’s like, how have you like really made it [00:38:50] through the test of time? So that’s one.

Number one, longevity. Number two, is that consistent growth year over year. [00:38:55] Do you continue to grow regardless of the market, uh, administration, [00:39:00] the economy, and whatever your competitors do? Are you continuing to see consistent growth? [00:39:05] Number three, when people just start coming to you. And I think [00:39:10] those are three great indicators of, all right, now this is, this is a great [00:39:15] potential time to start scaling your influence beyond your ordinary business of [00:39:20] you’re still in business check, you’re still growing check, and [00:39:25] people are now coming to you asking you, how are you doing that Exactly.

Those are simple, [00:39:30] awesome tips. Um, you heard it here first. [00:39:35] Those, those are great. All right, last question. Um, and then I wanna, uh, well, sorry, I [00:39:40] lied. Last business question then I wanna talk about this awesome freebie that you have for our [00:39:45] audience. On the same kind of topic, what’s one action [00:39:50] that you would suggest or recommend someone take to start building industry [00:39:55] credibility?

MINDI: That’s really good. I would say, first of all, I’ve already mentioned a [00:40:00] few, right? Offer free advice. Show up where they’re hanging out, be [00:40:05] supportive, be a phone call away for people having questions offer to write on [00:40:10] platforms that need a columnist or a specialist to answer those questions too. [00:40:15] But beyond that, beyond those things that we already talked about, it’s really [00:40:20] starting to use positioning statements in your marketing, in your personal brand [00:40:25] and reputation.

And when I say positioning statements, things like. [00:40:30] Our industry’s thought leader on marketing in such and [00:40:35] such domain, or for us Colorado’s best wedding dress shopping [00:40:40] experience. There’s so much power in positioning statements, and this is kind of a [00:40:45] nitty gritty thing, but I just think that if you can curate a couple really important [00:40:50] ones.

Start to kind of wrap those around all the different [00:40:55] places you show up, whether that’s online, on your website, on your Instagram handle. We’ve even [00:41:00] bought domain names like that before where it’s like the positioning statement so that we [00:41:05] own the search words of the positioning statement so that people start to come.

It’s [00:41:10] just kind of, it’s like laying a really good cement foundation for what you’re about to build. [00:41:15] So I, I think, you know, we wanna. Make sure that we’re [00:41:20] saying what we do and who we are and how we’re the expert, and then [00:41:25] offer all the free support around it. But sometimes if we just say on our personal [00:41:30] website or whatever, oh, I’m Mindy.

I’m a mom and a business owner, or whatever. No, I wanna be the [00:41:35] best. Profitable business like I will teach you profitability. If you’re a bridal shop owner [00:41:40] anywhere in the world, I’m the best coach for that. And then I own all the positioning statements, [00:41:45] wherever that is. Then I want people to think of my name synonymous with that type [00:41:50] of position.

Like this lady is saying, she can teach bridal shops how to be profitable more [00:41:55] than anybody else can, and that you need her business school more than anyone else. [00:42:00] So when I wrap around those business, you know, positioning statements [00:42:05] to how I show up, it’s a match. Because if I just showed up talking about [00:42:10] business, but didn’t tell people my purpose, mm-hmm.

I think it would be confusion. But I [00:42:15] love how they kind of go hand in hand and so. My business [00:42:20] pages give a ton of free support. Every video is like, Hey, these are ways to [00:42:25] increase your Google reviews. Hey, this is how you can retain staff. Here’s how you can pay people better. [00:42:30] I mean, I give all this free knowledge all over the account, but if you read who we are [00:42:35] and how we help people, it’s like we teach business owners how to be profitable so they can have a business [00:42:40] that they enjoy.

And so we’re really clear with how we’re supporting them. [00:42:45] We show up everywhere online that way. So I’m just saying that would be a first step for me is just start to tell people [00:42:50] who you’re here to help and how you’re gonna help ’em, but then do it and have it be a match. [00:42:55]

AJ: Really important, because I think that kind of comes back to this like little bit of a topic that we [00:43:00] had earlier around.

Imposter syndrome, like a lot of people don’t do [00:43:05] it because they, one, they don’t acknowledge or see what they’re doing as unique, special, even though [00:43:10] it is, but then they have a real hard time acknowledging that publicly to [00:43:15] others. But it’s kind of one of those weird catch 22 things. It’s like people [00:43:20] don’t know if you don’t tell them.

Right. Like they actually, you have to tell [00:43:25] them I can’t. I would just, it made me think about this funny. Funny event. I was [00:43:30] speaking at years, this was years ago. And I was a speaker on stage and it was at this huge advertising [00:43:35] promotional conference. And I was on stage speaking and I get [00:43:40] down and I just offered to do like an after session q and a for anyone who wanted to stick around.

And this [00:43:45] one person walked up to me and they’re like, so like, what do you do for like a real job? [00:43:50] And I was like, what do you mean? And they were like, like, what’s like your nine to five? And I [00:43:55] thought to myself. I’m a speaker. Like, what do you mean? Like, that’s what I [00:44:00] do is what I just did for you. And they were like, wait, you’re a speaker, like full time.

Like, [00:44:05] that’s your job. I was like, yes. Then, [00:44:10] so I, I, I had, I had this aha moment and I went back and I read my bio and [00:44:15] my bio did not have in there that I was a speaker, a [00:44:20] consultant, a trainer, or a coach. Isn’t that crazy? [00:44:25] They just sat in a room with me for an hour, experienced what I do, [00:44:30] and did not know what I did because that like so much of [00:44:35] it was like I didn’t tell them.

But I didn’t tell them this is what I [00:44:40] do, this is what I research, this is what I talk about, like my profession is what you’re [00:44:45] experiencing. And I’m like, this guy just literally thought I was like some volunteer that came [00:44:50] in and was like hosting a session. And it was like an aha reckoning moment for me of [00:44:55] like, they don’t know if you don’t explicitly outline and tell [00:45:00] them.

Correct. That’s our job.

MINDI: Correct. And so. [00:45:05] Yes. I just feel like it was one of the very basic first things someone can do [00:45:10] is get really clear on how can you explain it in 30 seconds or less [00:45:15] what you do, and that you are the leader in such and such. And so that is, is something [00:45:20] I’ve, you know, tried a few times in the sense of, you know, you try to explain it and, oh, they didn’t get it, [00:45:25] so I gotta reword it the next time.

And you experiment with it. You have to [00:45:30] tell the world what you wanna help them with if you want them to see you as somebody that’s a thought leader. [00:45:35]

AJ: Yeah. That’s so, so, so, so true and so good. And a good reminder to all of us is [00:45:40] that they don’t know if you don’t tell them. And so a part of that is that [00:45:45] positioning.

Okay. A transition as we’re wrapping up here. And so this [00:45:50] is two, part one is a question I have for you, and two is this [00:45:55] awesome giveaway, um, that we have for our audience. And so here’s my last question for you today. We’ve mentioned this [00:46:00] a few times throughout this interview that you and your husband Jordan.

Started this [00:46:05] bridal shop business together. You guys are still happily married and [00:46:10] happily in business, and he is also part of the bridal shop coaching business and [00:46:15] co-host with the podcast. You guys do so much together. So here’s my question. [00:46:20] What have you learned about working with your spouse [00:46:25] that you think applies to relationships universally?

[00:46:30] So what have you learned about working with your spouse that applies to relationships [00:46:35] universally?

MINDI: That you each have your own strengths and to let each other run in [00:46:40] each other’s own lane without getting upset that [00:46:45] they don’t operate just like you in your lane. So I thought just because [00:46:50] we were married that he would understand what I meant by things, or that there would [00:46:55] be this really easy flow, but our brains are so different and the [00:47:00] way we operate are so different.

I think that applies to my whole team, that [00:47:05] the more years I’m with my team and I have people anywhere from six years to 14 years that [00:47:10] have worked for me, the more I spend time, I’m realizing we’re all growing every [00:47:15] year. We’re all becoming different, better people every single year. And if we don’t [00:47:20] focus on realizing, hey, that’s actually what they’re passionate about, like I try [00:47:25] to.

Really tweak people’s job roles. Every year they’re with me to be even more [00:47:30] dialed in to their God-given strengths, abilities, and just passions, [00:47:35] and so that we’re each playing to those. And same with my spouse. It’s like we maybe started out with [00:47:40] certain roles, but we have evolved and transitioned into.

What [00:47:45] we’re passionate about, and it’s a constant dialogue of, there’s part of our roles that we [00:47:50] have to do just ’cause we have to do them right. Nobody loves everything that that comes along with entrepreneurship, [00:47:55] but there are people that in this relationship as a partner or as a team member, that are [00:48:00] better suited for certain skills and tasks.

And so I just would [00:48:05] like to say. Lean into that instead of fighting it, lean into it and the faster you [00:48:10] lean into it and celebrate those good things about that person, instead of being [00:48:15] frustrated that you wish they were more like this, I think you’re gonna have a happier work life [00:48:20] and marriage.

AJ: So good.

And you and Jordan have created [00:48:25] this amazing free resource. So for all of you who are listening, we’ll put this in the show notes, but there’s [00:48:30] this awesome free download that you guys can grab. It’s the Spotlight decision making tool for [00:48:35] working couples. Right, and so you can go to Jordan [00:48:40] and mindy.com, floor slash resources, Jordan and [00:48:45] mindy.com/resources.

We will put that link in the show [00:48:50] notes. Such a generous gift. Thank you for giving us this download. And like I said, E, [00:48:55] even if you’re not working with your spouse, these, these practices, these principles. [00:49:00] Apply universally throughout relationships, but this is curated really for [00:49:05] couples who are working together.

So thank you so much for that. Mindy, if people just wanna connect with [00:49:10] you because you’re so awesome, where should they go?

MINDI: I would say the place I am most [00:49:15] often showing up is on Instagram and they can follow my Instagram handle, Mindy Li [00:49:20] Linscomb. It’s just my first and last name on Instagram. And um, and then you’ll see all the [00:49:25] things that we do from there.

AJ: Yes, and I will also put that in the show notes as well. But then they [00:49:30] also co-host an awesome, the Something new show, which is an amazing podcast. We’ll [00:49:35] put that in the show notes. Mindy, this has been such an awesome conversation with [00:49:40] so much universally applicable information for anyone who’s going from business [00:49:45] owner to thought leader, taking what they’ve learned and starting to share that to help other [00:49:50] people.

In and outside of their industry. So thank you so much for coming on. I love [00:49:55] you. I love this conversation. I hope everyone else has enjoyed it as much as I have. And for everyone who [00:50:00] is listening, thank you for sticking around. Uh, stay tuned for the recap episode [00:50:05] and we will see you next time on the Influence.

Thank you personal brand. [00:50:10] Bye everybody. Bye.

[00:50:15]

Ep 613: Your Competitive Advantage in a World of AI | Ryan Levesque

Rory: You are about to meet someone that I only met recently. In relationship, but who I’ve known about for years and years through reputation. In fact, if you’ve listened to this show for any amount of time, you know how we talk about reputation precedes revenue, and that that personal branding is really the digitization of reputation.

So this man that you’re about to meet, that you’re about to learn from, as I learn from him, is [00:01:00] someone who has walked that path. He has built a tremendous reputation and he has built great businesses. He is a model of someone who has done the things that we’re talking about. So who am I talking about?

I’m talking about Ryan Leveque. So Ryan Leveque is a seven time ink, 5,000 CEO, which is extremely hard to do, particularly because the Ink 5,000 is based on growth every year. So that means you have to grow. Year after year, after year. Um, very, very challenging. He’s also a two-time number, one national bestselling author.

Um, he’s generated over a hundred million dollars in revenue. He successfully sold two of his businesses. He’s been featured in the Wall Street Journal, Harvard Business Review, Forbes entrepreneur. Uh, and more importantly, he’s somebody whose name I hear and have heard all the time. In the circles of like the most influential people in the space.

So today he is a strategic advisor to multiple different businesses. And we’re gonna hear about [00:02:00] his brand new book, the Return to Real and really, uh, not even the book, but the concept of how he’s living his life now and how his personal brand journey led him to what he’s doing. Uh, he’s also writing by hand personally every, uh, every single week the Digital Contrarian, which is his email newsletter that he does.

Personally, so we’re gonna talk about some of the evolution because he sold software companies, he’s built his personal brand, uh, and he’s made some changes here in recent years that we’re gonna learn about and, uh, it’s all tying into his new book. So Ryan, thanks for being on the show, brother. It’s great to have you,

Ryan: Rory.

It’s awesome to be here. I’ve been looking forward to this conversation.

Rory: Yeah, so. I wanna hear, I, I, I wanna talk about return to real and I really want to get, I want this conversation to get to what you’re doing today and specifically how you’re living today. But I think before we can get to that, for people to have a full appreciation of.

What [00:03:00] was your journey to get there? Um, and also, you know, I didn’t mention this in your, in your bio, but if y’all have ever heard of Ask or the Ask Method, Ryan is the one who created that, which has been a, is a huge part of our, our space. So I would love to hear a little bit of like that journey from personal brand software company and then, you know, we’ll get into what, what you’re doing now.

Ryan: Yeah. You know, so, uh, I’ll try to do the, the TLDR version of the story to, um, get to the, get to the high points. Um, so, uh. You know, I grew up very modestly, first generation college, uh, student college grad. Um, worked in finance after college, university, and then very quickly thereafter, moved to Asia, China and was spending time in corporate, um, the corporate world in China.

In my mid twenties. I kinda had a quarter life crisis and thought, okay, is this my life? Like, do I, am I gonna be a corporate wage slave my entire life? And I said, no, I want to start a business. Hmm. Um, and I was on a real kind of fast track career and, um, decided to [00:04:00] quit my job in 2008. And started a business, uh, teaching people how to make Scrabble tile jewelry.

Nice. And, uh, yeah, it was like, you know, it was the craze in the world that year. Um, and, uh, and, and that business, uh, took off and then quickly fell apart and, uh, took me down this path to really figure out. How to enter new markets and how to figure out what a market wants. Like what is it that people actually wanna buy and how do you give it to them?

Mm-hmm. And so I went through that process 23 different times in all sorts of different random niche markets like market care and memory improvements and fish oil supplements, and just all these random markets. And along the way sort of built this methodology. That, um, as you pointed out, uh, became known in the industry as the ASK method.

It used a combination of surveys and quizzes and assessments to really understand a market at a deep emotional level. And, um, in, uh, 10 years ago, I decided to write a book, basically telling my story and, uh, the methodology. And I honestly, Roy wrote the book. Um, like most people, when you write a book, you want it to be like a [00:05:00] better business card.

Right. It’s like it’d be great to have like a book that I could hand people and I didn’t really expect it to do much more than that. And, uh, in the year that we launched it, it was, uh, it launched the week that we launched. It was the number one bestselling book in the entire country across all categories.

Um, you know, number one on virtually all the, all the counting lists, not the editorial list, all the counting lists and, uh, transform my life. And that book became the foundation of a company we started called the Ask Method Company, where we taught this methodology, uh, eventually built a software company called Bucket to implement that methodology.

And then, uh, in 2024, um, sold the company, uh, and kind of took it full cycle. So yeah, grew that company, uh, seven Time Inc. 5,000 fastest growing company. Um, and, uh, you know, transform my life. And the thing that I’ll say is, um, you know, for the tiny little corner of the world that, that I’ve, you know, been part of and that I’ve occupied, um, from a personal brand standpoint, this is, I think, an important lesson to think about.

Whenever I’m thinking about building a personal brand, I think about [00:06:00] how can you associate yourself with a single word.

Rory: So that

Ryan: way when your market, the corner of the world that you’re in, how do you create something so that when people hear that word, they think of you. And for me that word was ask in the world anytime that you heard about ask, my name would be evoked.

And that was very intentional, that was very strategic and it served me for the better part of a decade in the empire building season of life. And, um, built a very successful business that we’re able to, um, sell and exit on the back of that.

Rory: Yeah, I mean, you’re, you’re preaching our, you’re preaching our language.

We, we talk about finding your uniqueness, exploiting it in the service of others and nailing it to one word, like you are such a great example of that. The, um, so real quick, I would be remiss if I didn’t at least have you briefly overview the ASK method. It’s Sure. These five core questions because I know that this super tactical and applicable to people today and.

The premise [00:07:00] still holds true. I think that, you know, everyone is like shouting and you came in with like a whole different way of just approaching this. And so, you know, I’d love for you to just like, kind of briefly touch on the five questions and like, you know, the premise of Ask.

Ryan: Yeah. So the way I described the ASK method is, is as follows.

Um, you know, the secret to succeeding in business is actually pretty simple. It’s figure out what people want and give it to them. Um, the problem is you can’t just walk through the front door and ask people, Hey, what do you wanna buy? Like, people actually just don’t know what they want. We actually don’t know what we want fundamentally in life.

In fact, when you ask someone, what is it that you want? What do you want for dinner tonight? You’re accessing a part of your brain where you’re actually projecting into the future and guessing. You’re thinking, maybe I might want this, but I don’t know. Versus if you flip that idea on its head. So just real quick, they don’t want

Rory: one, one of my all time favorite quotes, like of all time is Henry Ford when he says, if I would’ve asked people what they wanted, they would’ve set a faster horse.

[00:08:00] Exactly. Um, you know, so I I I love that. So then, so then your method is helping them access a different piece of their brain.

Ryan: You have to figure out what to figure out what people want. You have to understand what they don’t want. You have to understand what has frustrated them. You have to understand what’s caused pain.

You have to understand what’s caused an emotional reaction to them relative to the problem that you help people solve. And by asking a series of open-ended questions, we’ll talk about a few of them. By asking a series of open-ended questions, you can figure out what it is that not only people want, but will people, what people will spend money on.

Solving. Hmm. And it comes down to paying attention to the open-ended natural language that people give you, and paying attention to deep emotional language that shows up. Hmm. And there’s a direct correlation between length of response, depth of response, and intensity of response to purchasing behavior that you can use as a predictor to determine where you should actually focus.

So first question that you always want to ask when you’re trying to. Solve a problem in a [00:09:00] person’s life. And by the way, uh, as an aside, I always tell our clients, fall in love with the problem that you solve, not the product that you sell.

Rory: Love that. So we get

Ryan: really, really excited about our book, our widget, our thing, and naturally so if you’ve invested your heart and soul there, but the real longevity in any business is falling in love with the problem.

And just being obsessed over solving that problem agnostically, irrespective of whatever thing you might sell right now, fall in love with that problem. So first question that you want to ask is what we call the SMIQ Single most important question. If you only ask one question, this is the one, and it’s this.

When it comes to x, X being the thing that you help people with that problem, what’s your single biggest challenge, frustration, or obstacle that you’re facing right now? Please be as detailed and specific as possible. So that’s the first question. Now you’re gonna pair that with two other questions. Next question is, how much time have you spent trying to solve this problem?

Rory: Hmm.

Ryan: And question number three, how much [00:10:00] money have you invested today? Now, what you’re gonna do is you’re gonna triangulate three different data points. First, in that first question, what’s your biggest challenge? You’re gonna pay attention to the longest, most passionate, most detailed, open-ended responses.

The top 20% is what we call the hyperresponsive segment of your market, and you’re actually gonna ignore everybody else. You only wanna pay attention to the people who say, Rory, I’ve been trying to launch my book for years, and I’ve launched three books and I sold like 300 copies and I’ve done all of the things right, and yet for some reason, I just can never get any traction with my book and it’s killing me.

I feel like I’ve got a message out there. What do I do? Exasperation that you hear in my voice. That’s what you’re looking for. Mm-hmm. Second question to you wanna look for people who have spent an inordinate amount of time trying to solve this problem? Not someone who went to chat GPT five minutes ago, typed in one query, couldn’t get their answer and jumped to you.

You need someone who’s had the pain of being unable to solve their [00:11:00] problem for a long enough period of time. Then last but not least, the greatest predictor of whether someone will spend money on a solution irrespective of the category that you’re in, is whether they’ve spent money in that category before.

Wow. Best predictor if a woman is gonna buy an expensive handbag is if she already has an expensive handbag in her closet. And that principle is true, whatever category you operate in. So you wanna be looking for the overlapping Venn diagram and that centerpiece and everything that you do in your marketing, your messaging, your product development in your overall business strategy is focused on just the people who are in the center of those three overlapping Venn diagrams, those circles, and ignore everybody else.

And it’s, it’s counterintuitive. Because you want to try to appeal to everybody, but when you try to be all things to all people, you end up being nothing to nobody. So the ASK method is based on that principle and those ideas. And of course there are layers and layers and layers beneath that, around data analysis and cluster analysis.

And now [00:12:00] how we can use AI to analyze language patterns, to find these hyperresponsives and the key language that we want to echo back to our market. Because your message should come from your market, not from your mind. Instead of coming up with your own catchy marketing slogan, don’t lean in to the temptation of sanitizing the language your market gives you and echoing it back in a more clever way.

Take the language verbatim. In the way that people describe it to you, echo it back. And what you’ll find is that what’s true for one is true for the many. So Ask Method is, is all about this. Of course, there’s, you know, there’s layers and layers and layers to it. Um, but that was the premise of the book, premise of the company that we founded, premise of the technology that we built.

Um, and the premise so that I wanna

Rory: talk about the technology because that, that, so that’s so powerful, right? And it’s so clear. Yeah. One of the, the other things that I really respect about what you’ve done, uh, you know, so, so one of the things that we say a lot is we say people don’t pay [00:13:00] for information, they pay for application.

Hmm. And so in the future, especially as information becomes commoditized, particularly with ai, it’s like the real game is rush to applying the principles, implementing the things. And many personal brands don’t do that, and they’re slow to move into that area. And you are one of the first that you. Built an actual tool around your methodology that made it real, that made it available that people could apply the information so.

How did that start? I mean, you went from like working in the corporate world to an entrepreneur, to all of a sudden now you’re developing software. Like I didn’t hear software engineer like in your background previous to that. Like you were doing Scrabble bracelets, like Yeah. What made you think you could pull this off, and then how in the heck did you pull it off?

Ryan: Yeah. Well, look, I mean, everything that you’ve done in your life is something that you’ve previously not done. Full stop. [00:14:00] Sure. And we all have different aptitudes and capabilities and personalities and skills in, in different areas. Um, I’ve never been afraid of, of taking on a challenge and trying something new.

So that’s, I think, the, the first part of it. But there are layers beneath that. Every product that we created was born out of a problem slash opportunity that emerged from a previous product that we developed. So, for example, when I, um. Uh, when I had the success in the different markets that I went into, what happened next is that big companies started approaching me and asking for me to help them implement this model in their business.

And, um, and I did that and I had a few businesses that I worked with that the, the, the basically the, the marketing campaigns and funnels that we built, um, led to explosive growth. Um, to the point that, like, for example, there was a, a, a project that I was involved in where we were doing about a hundred thousand.

Uh, leads opt-ins, email opt-ins a day, a hundred thousand leads a day, [00:15:00] um, in a high volume fitness space, um, that grew this company to nine figures. Um, I, I was part of two exits as a result of what we built. So one was in the golf market, um, built a company called Revolution Golf, built an assessment in the golf space to figure out what was wrong with your swing.

And we had, uh, over 10 million golfers go through that assessment. And then we sold the company to NBC. So NBC, um, the Golf Channel bought this business. Um, and I had a small sort of piece of that, not a big piece of that exit, but a very small piece of this. Um, the next one was a, uh, we did the same thing in the business funding space and, uh, we built a application called Loan Builder.

To figure out basically what type of business loan is right, you know, for your funding needs in your business. Um, and that company was bought by PayPal for about $180 million. So I saw the power of what I was doing in, in this process, and so that led me to this. Well, if I wanna, you know, I, I’ve seen these businesses, like I got a tiny, I got crumbs.

On these little exits. Maybe I’ve got [00:16:00] something here that in turn inspired me to write this book, build a company around it, shift my model from working with companies to actually build IP and infrastructure and a team. And, you know, had 14,000, um, uh, businesses that went through our training programs to implement all of this.

And along the way. What happened was people said, what tool do we use? Like Survey Gizmo doesn’t quite do what we need it to do and Google Forms doesn’t do what we exactly what we need to do. Like we need this, this, and this, and how do you do that? And my answer was, well, yeah, you just have your development team, you know, develop an application.

And as I was starting to work with smaller and smaller businesses. That didn’t have an engineering team, I realized like, I’ve gotta create a solution. So found a partner to answer your question in that space. Got it. Um, my development skills very, very, very limited. I know a little bit of, you know, back in the day coded my first website with, uh, H-T-M-L-C-S-S and PHP and a little bit of JavaScript, but that was just me, you know, as a hack, learning, trying to figure stuff.

I’m not an actual proper developer. Um, so I found a partner in that space. [00:17:00] Um, we did a pre-launch of the offer. We had, I think a thousand people, uh, pre-order the software. Like as soon before it was launched, they just put down a deposit and they said, we want this when it’s launched. Cool. And so we launched to a thousand, um, you know, monthly recurring revenue buyers just out of the gate.

Wow. And then scaled that business. Um, now along the way, what happens is, and I think this is important and relevant from a personal brand standpoint as well, is that your, uh, success will breed competition. People will see you. Whatever it is that you’re doing. And because most people are unimaginative and they need to see an exemplar of success in order to know what to follow, they’ll see your success.

So like in your company, um, you’ve got copycat competitors that, that come in and watch what you do. And the more successful you are, the more competition that you attract. So success breeds competition. That’s just like a universal law of capitalism. And so along the way we had, you know, 14,000 students who went through our, um, our process.

We bred our own competition. So, you [00:18:00] know, clients of ours, software, users of ours said, Hey, we can create something, you know, similar to that. So you get more competition in, in the marketplace. And um, for me, I recognized that this was showing up, um, that there was increasing competition. I recognized that the, the, the technological, I’ll call it development, uh, uh, lifecycle in a, in an application was shortening.

More and more, particularly with the advent of AI over the last few years, and I recognize that. I recognize the writing on the wall around SaaS as a business model. Like today, you can use through vibe, coding and uh, third party applications. You can say, Hey, that software over there, like that scheduling software that I use right now, can you just build me a version of that so I don’t have to pay?

A monthly recurring, uh, uh, fee on that software. And, uh, with reasonable success, you can build that. The paradigm has changed. So I recognized that. I saw the writing on the wall and I said, this is probably not the right business model to be [00:19:00] in for the next decade. Um, I’d also been on a decade long sprint, you know, empire building mode and hustle, hustle, hustle.

Clearly that, so it was just none of this

Rory: stuff. You’re describing it as like, oh, we did this, we did this. This is like, it’s like. That’s hours and money and pain and hustle and tears and team members and turnover and like that, that doesn’t just happen automatically. It’s all the things.

Ryan: Yeah, man. It’s all, it’s all the things.

So I kind of reached a point where, um, we, we brought our, our companies, our combined businesses to market in 2021. And, um, in that process we received a, a $70 million offer for the, for the combined businesses.

Rory: Cool.

Ryan: And we spent about a year, um, in diligence back and forth with the buyer. Went through a full, um, uh, what they call as a process in private equity.

Hired an investment bank, and, uh, received an offer from the same private equity group that bought Alex from MO’S company. So they bought Alex’s company and then they were looking to make an acquisition in our space. They identified our company as their target. This is 21 to 22. [00:20:00] Then in 22, uh, Russia invades the Ukraine.

Crypto markets crash, capital markets crash. The world is starting to feel like, is this gonna be World War iii? I remember when Russia first invaded the Ukraine, there was like fear, like this could be a big thing, right? No one really knew what was gonna happen. Um, so there was a lot of fear. In the market and headwinds really kind of, um, were taking over.

So after a year of diligence, uh, the group spent over a million dollars in, in, um, in, in diligence in the process. Um, basically said, we’re walking away from the deal. We’re at the, now, we’re like one yard line ready to get this thing done. And um, and then long story short, the m and a market, certainly in our space, basically dried up in 22.

And so I kinda had this moment of like. I just spent 10 years, like on this sprint. I’ve got two kids at home and, uh, my two boys, I knew, I only had a few years left with them at home. I said, do I really wanna do this another 10 years? And I saw the writing on the wall with SAS and everything that was happening, and so I said, I’m [00:21:00] gonna take a little bit of time off.

And I took some time off. We were living in Austin, Texas at the time, and I, I decided to live and work on a farm in the Mad River Valley of Vermont. And, uh, I took, um, most of the summer to just. Be up there. And I was literally living in a tent by a pond on this farm. Wow. And living a pretty simple life.

And I have an amazing wife who, um, was very understanding. And I’ll tell you man, when I was there, um, my heart just spoke to me and said, this is where you’re meant to be. Like that stillness, taking time off, finally having just a little bit of space to say like, what am I gonna do in the second chapter of life, like First Mountain, second Mountain, you know, first mountain of life.

Climb the mountain, build a big successful company, make all the money. Second Mountain is like, all right, am I gonna, you know, what am I gonna do in the second half of life I’d, I’d recently turned 40. So I kind of had like that, you know, midlife moment. And, um, and so while I was there, I, I called my wife and I said, um, something that we’ve been contemplating, which is [00:22:00] putting our house in the market.

I said, let’s, let’s put our house in the market in Austin. Let’s see if it sells. I think this is where we’re meant to be. And this was in the middle of a very hot real estate market in Austin, as you probably remember. And, uh, the, the house sold that day. All cash

Rory: man, full

Ryan: price. And, um, a 14 day close, geez.

So I had to rush back from Vermont to Austin. Um, we load everything that we own into, into, we hire a moving company out of Boston with a b They drive cross country, get all of our stuff, ship it up to Boston. We sell one of our cars. I, I keep my truck and we get a suitcase each, for each member of the family and the dog load in the back of the truck.

And we road ship our way from Texas to Vermont with nothing but a dream and a vision. Of starting a farm together as a family. Wild. And, uh, that’s so wild.

Rory: I mean, like, you’re like camping out in a tent to like, Hey, we’re living, we’re moving here. Yeah. This is

Ryan: like in a matter of a few days. Well, you know, the, the [00:23:00] truth is this is something that had been bubbling Yeah.

Sort of beneath the surface. Right. Um, and, and we’ll talk about this with return to real, ’cause I think this, it, it ties in and it’ll tie into the thesis of the book, which I think is really relevant from a personal brand standpoint. But. It took us a year, Rory, to find the place that we ended up landing. I thought we were gonna drive up to Vermont and I thought we were going to like, ah, a few weeks.

I had a bunch of showings lined up for a few different farms that we’re gonna take a look at. Um, but by the time we got to Vermont, uh, I think we had seven showings and five out of the seven showings were under contract before we even had a chance to see them. There was that much demand. Hmm. And when winter, uh, happens and snow’s on the ground, like big properties like that, there’s just, there, you have to wait till the next year.

So it took us about a year to find the site that we’re on now we’re on about 140 acres. And we kind of have gone through this journey of raising and growing the vast majority of the food that we eat as a family. So, um, just to paint a picture,

Rory: [00:24:00] I mean, just the dichotomy of this like fast paced software company, ramping revenue, like pre-revenue thousand customers to then like Vermont, growing our own food.

Like this is a radical change.

Ryan: Well, I’ll tell you, man, I’ve had some, what I didn’t, what I didn’t say is, you know, the steps along the way. Um, you know, I was in college, I studied neuroscience. I thought I was gonna be a neurosurgeon. My best friend, uh, at Brown University is a neuroscientist at the Mayo Clinic.

We were. Kind of, you know, buddies going on the same path. So, um, I thought I was gonna go into brain science. That was kind of like my original passion and my academic background. Um, then I decided, I wasn’t sure if I wanted to go to medical school, so I decided to take a few years off and work on Wall Street.

So I worked for Goldman Sachs on Wall Street. And became really fascinated with the psychology of money. So I kind of gave up medicine to go into Wall Street, then was on Wall Street. I also studied Mandarin Chinese in college. And um, of course you did. I mean, why not [00:25:00] neuroscience,

Rory: stock market, Mandarin only makes sense to be the next thing all the things,

Ryan: right?

Um, and then so I gave that career up on Wall Street to live and work in China and we spent about five years, uh, there. And then in 2008 when the world financial crisis hit. I kind of use that as sort of like a, a, an opportunity to, um, to take a a, to make a pivot. And that’s the Scrabble tile jewelry business.

So I say that because like each step along the way, and I think we go through these moments where we have these moments in our life where we’re on this trajectory, and I, I see it time and time again. Most people are afraid to give up. Good to go after. Great. In their life. And each step along the way, every human being around me said I was crazy.

Ryan, you’re you’re gonna go to medical school, you’re gonna be a neurologist or a neurosurgeon. Like, why are you going to Wall Wall Street? Well, I’m, it’s, I, I just feel called to do this career on, you know, making all this money. Goldman Sachs on Wall Street, [00:26:00] you’re gonna give that up to basically make $40,000 a year living in China.

Have that life, but it, well, it was an adventure. And then I grew that to making a couple hundred thousand dollars a year working in China. And then I just gave all that up to start the Scrabble business. And so I think most people will come up with all sorts of reasons why they can’t reinvent themselves totally along the way.

And this ties to the personal brand thing. So success breeds competition. And what it means is in order to stay relevant in your space, and not only relevant, but to stay true to yourself. As you evolve, as you grow, as you change as a human being, so every seven years you are a completely new human being.

Even at a cellular level, your cells have actually completely replaced themselves every seven years. So seven years ago, there wasn’t a single cell in your body that exists today. You are a completely different human being today than you were seven years ago. So to honor that, you have to listen to [00:27:00] what it is that is calling you.

This ties to Ask. So Ask was all about figuring out what everybody else wants, but what Ask didn’t cover was paying attention to the most important voice of them all, which is how do you listen to yourself?

Rory: Hmm.

Ryan: How do you listen to that inner calling? That’s what I describe as the contrarian voice of your heart.

When everyone around you says that you’re completely crazy for doing what you’re doing, yet you feel called, you feel pulled in that direction. How do you quiet all the noise? And listen to that voice, that real voice, that authentic voice that enables you to seek and speak truth. And so this journey that I’ve been on over the last few years has helped me really dive deep into this space, our relationship, especially in this age of AI with humanity.

Hopefully

Rory: you don’t tell me that I have to sell everything and move to Vermont and farm ’cause I’m, I’m an indoor type and I don’t know how to grow things. So I’m hoping that the book can [00:28:00] like step me through this without me having to get my hands dirty.

Ryan: Yeah. Well, well look, I think, um, so there’s a couple things.

You, you bring up really good points. So let, let’s talk about what is return to real. How is it relevant for anyone looking to build a personal brand?

Rory: This is the, this is the new book. So this is where, this is your journey coming full circle to like, here’s where you are now, here’s how this evolved. And I love that.

I didn’t, when, when we first met and talked about this, I didn’t make that connection. That ask was all about how to find what other people want. This is all about how to figure out what you want or what you were created to do. That’s a really powerful intersection. I love that.

Ryan: And what’s interesting is that it’s, it’s, it’s bringing this conversation sort of full circle.

The creation of everything that you build in your business will open up challenges and opportunities to create that next thing. And that’s exactly what I found, spent the past decade figuring out exactly what people want in all these different markets that I knew nothing about. But along the way, [00:29:00] I spent zero time actually paying attention to what I actually truly wanted in the process.

And, and, and I think, um, and so I started, uh, a year ago, um, I, I wrote a piece to our very large, um, email newsletter, and I called it an embarrassing Confession. And basically what I said effectively is I have an embarrassing confession to me. And it’s this. For the last seven years, every single piece of writing that you’ve seen with my name attached to it was actually not written by me personally.

It was written by one of our writers in house with my name signed to it. And increasingly, this felt more and more uncomfortable, something that I was not happy with, and for all sorts of different reasons, being a busy CEO, it just necessitated having a team of writers writing in my voice. But over time.

It started feeling like a photocopy of a photocopy. Of a photocopy. Of a photocopy.

Rory: Sure. And

Ryan: what started to emerge is that it started to taste like the watered down orange juice that comes from a can and not the freshly [00:30:00] squeezed version that you get at Sunday brunch. And I said this day for it, that changes anytime that you see something with my name attached to it.

It’s something that’s actually written. By me personally, and I did it sort of as an experiment with really no expectations, just to kind of, you know, get that off my chest. And that led to writing a weekly piece that I write every single week myself. Oftentimes these pieces are two to 4,000 words. These are, this is deep writing.

That’s a

Rory: lot. Yeah. That’s allocate

Ryan: an entire day, oftentimes 12 to 14 hours to write a piece like this. But since I’ve been doing that, writing authentically, real raw mistakes made, lessons learned, really coming from me, not just regurgitated AI bullshit, but actually coming from my own lived experience, Rory, I’ve had more opportunity come my way in the last 12 months than probably the last 12 years.

Rory: Hmm.

Ryan: And, and this ties into return to real because what the world is craving right now is, is more of that. [00:31:00] And they’re principles in return to real that I think are really provocative principles to be thinking about in your business. And I’ll share one or two to reflect on. Um, the first thing is this, the best things in life don’t scale.

Full stop. If you think about the best things in your life, they are the unscalable. It’s a hug with one of your kids. It’s an embrace with your partner, with your spouse. You can’t scale that. Yet we’re taught that in a capitalist paradigm that we need to figure out how do we scale? How do we scale this?

How does this scale? But an interesting question to ask in this paradox is, what is it in your business that you are going to do that does not scale in spite of the fact that it doesn’t scale? ’cause I believe that is the last true moat that we have in business. Technology is no longer remote. I can go to your website and I can use existing [00:32:00] technology that exists right here, right now, today.

And I can say, replicate every single thing that Rory’s company has done. Technologically speaking, go. Anybody can do that. But what I can’t replicate is I can’t replicate your lived experience. I can’t replicate your voice, I can’t replicate your heart. That’s not something that we can yet copy.

Rory: So you said a few minutes ago you said.

What the world is craving is more of that. Hmm. What is that? That like what? What is what If you had to like codify that into a word, would you call that authenticity? Would you call that connection? Would you call that humanness? Like do you, have you landed on what that word is for that which people are craving?

Ryan: So I’ll answer it in two ways. I’ll answer it in a philosophical way and I’ll answer it in a very practical way, which is one of the principles in return to Real, the Phil, the philosophical way is what people [00:33:00] are craving is truth.

Rory: Mm-hmm.

Ryan: We live in a world where virtually everything we experience is artificial.

From the food we consume to the content that we read and what’s emerged in the world is that because there’s so much artificial, everything, there is a distrust that underlies every relationship that exists here today. The fundamental thing that’s changed is the fact that with the advent of ai, deep fake technology and everything that comes around it, what we no longer trust is ourselves.

We no longer trust our own ability to discern with our eyes and our ears if what we are seeing right now is in fact real, is this truth. Is this something that was fabricated and it’s a fundamental shift that’s happened, it would really

Rory: blow my mind right now if you said that you’ve been in AI this whole time, in this whole

Ryan: conversation, and [00:34:00] I’d be like, oh no, you got me.

It’s a Pandora’s box That I think is, it’s a, it’s a fool’s errand to try to replicate yourself with an AI avatar because once that Pandora’s box is open, it can no longer be closed. Meaning that if your audience is looking at you at any given time and wondering. Is that real Rory, or is that Rory’s avatar?

And trust me, I get every argument around convenience using 11 labs and any technology say, you know what? I don’t have to record any of these videos for my book launch. I’m just gonna use AI to do an AI avatar of it. But when you do that without disclosure, what happens is every further interaction that someone has is they second guess, is this real or is this not?

So the principle in return to real principle number three. Is optimized for oxytocin, not dopamine. So this takes it from the phy, the philosophical to the physiological. What do we mean by that? Mm-hmm.

Rory: Take us back to Brown University. Okay, here we go. Now we’re going, now we’re going back to the, back to the you nerd style, Brian Ryan.

[00:35:00] So,

Ryan: uh, Oxy is the trust molecule. It’s the neurotransmitter of trust. Now, dopamine, as we all know, is the neurotransmitter of. Desire and virtually every Silicon Valley tech business has tried to optimize. Sorry, say that again.

Rory: We don’t all know. We don’t all know. We don’t all know that you said that.

Oxytocin is the trust, the

Ryan: neurotransmitter of trust.

Rory: Okay.

Ryan: So it’s often thought about as the neurotransmitter of love, because mothers will elicit oxytocin when they have their baby close to them. Men and women experienced oxytocin. It manifests itself slightly differently in different brains. Okay. With the different genders and different sexes, but you can think about oxytocin as the neurotransmitter of trust.

Rory: What dopamine.

Ryan: Dopamine is the neurotransmitter of desire. Got it. And so when we have all of these dopamine feedback loops whereby, for example, you go to social media and you post something, Hey, I just launched my book, and guess what? It hit number three on the New York Times list. And you’re like, ah, this is awesome.

Then you put your phone down, then you walk away, and then your body’s like, but how [00:36:00] many likes did I get on this post? So you rush back and then you look at. It’s a dopamine feedback loop because your brain ultimately is craving these happy neurotransmitters. There’s a few of ’em. There’s oxytocin, there’s serotonin, there’s dopamine.

Few others. Your brain is craving these chemicals, and that’s what drives basically all human behavior. We do things because these neurochemicals in our brain make us feel good, and at the end of the day, we wanna feel good and feel less pain. So we feel happy when we watch something funny or we exercise.

We have a, a, uh, you know, uh, an endorphin rush after a, uh, a workout at the gym. We do things because they create these positive feedback loops of good feelings. Now, oxytocin. In contrast to dopamine with a few exceptions, only is elicited through in-person experiences when you actually interact with someone on a face-to-face level.

And much of the loneliness epidemic and sense of disconnect that exists in the world here today is driven by the [00:37:00] fact that most people are operating with an oxytocin deficit in their brain. Now they don’t know this. People don’t know that this is true. But a much of the, of the dissatisfaction in the malaise that exist in the world here today and emptiness is because we’ve replaced so much of these deep, immersive in-person experiences with more and more proxy based experience lived through a screen.

And so we have this absence in our physiology, our bio, our biology is missing this right now. So in a world that’s been optimized around dopamine. I believe oxytocin is the next competitive advantage because once people experience that, they want more of it. Once they recognize that this is what they want.

So the whole thesis in the book is that in this AI era where we are questioning this, uh, a relationship with authenticity and humanity, the thesis of the book is that what’s good for our biology, what’s good for our body, what’s good for our brain is actually good for business because the world is [00:38:00] craving this right now.

To answer your question, the world is craving more of this. So the opportunity for those of us with personal brands, for those of us who are entrepreneurs, is to fill this void in the marketplace and give people what they actually want, which is ask showing back up.

Rory: I mean, that’s, that’s, that’s wild. I, so, you know, brand builders groups, so we have about 50 employees, um, right now, but they’re all, and they’re all remote and we’ve, we’ve built the whole company remote and it’s how we operate.

And last year. Aj. So my wife, our, my business partner, our CEO, she, she comes to me and she’s like, Hey, I found a building. We’re gonna buy this building. And I was like, buy a building. I’m like, none of our people are gonna want to go, like some of, like a bunch of our people live outta state. And she’s like, yeah, it’s, it’s not for our people.

She’s like, it’s for our community. We’re gonna, we’re gonna start hosting in-person events every single month for our community. Be because we started in 2018 and then [00:39:00] COVID happened. So our, almost our entire company was virtual. Like the whole encounter with us was courses and then live virtual events.

And then, you know, it was evolved and she was like, she was like, I just, I just think this is the future. Um, and just like outta nowhere, it’s like, okay, I guess we’re gonna buy a building. She bought a building. We bought a building and then, and now we have these in-person events and it’s been crazy. Like there’s the wait list are insane for these events, Ryan, like, you know, you’re putting a neurological description and profile to something that she felt intuitively,

Ryan: totally.

And, and so there’s, there’s scientific evidence and data that backs up that gut feeling that we have. And I believe the opportunity in front of all of us is to lean into that and it’s gonna show up differently. Your version in the business, the building that you bought, [00:40:00] and the in-person events that you’re running is a variation that works for you.

It’s real for you. But what’s right for you is not gonna be right for anybody else. Sure. So the question is, what does this look like? How are you reinventing yourself in this new era relevant? Is it in person?

Rory: Is that the main thing? Is like that’s

Ryan: one

Rory: of the principles.

Ryan: Okay. That’s one of the principles.

I mean, there’s, it’s um, you know, there the confluence of events that’s happening right now. There’s, there’s a three colliding forces. All happening at once in the world. Um, there’s an economic force and environmental force and an existential force. So, um, the existential force is the one that most people are most familiar with, and it’s our relationship to AI as, um, the deeper questions with ai, what does it mean to be human?

What is our role? What is our purpose? If we are not the most intelligent being or organism on this planet, where does that leave us? And there’s so many second and third order effects that are showing up around that. But in concert, at the same time, we’re experiencing economic. Forces that are [00:41:00] reshaping the world.

So Ray Dalio describes this as the big cycle, which effectively 80, every 80 to 100 years, we have a big debt cycle that resets. And the last time that this happened was in the Great Depression leading into World War ii. And we are due for that next reset. And these resets are when we have a change in the world order.

When a new superpower typically emerges amidst the ashes of this turmoil, this is where currency devaluation takes place. And the reality is that no living. People on this planet, say for the centenarians that are still alive today, have lived through that period. So our generation, even our parents’ generation Roy, have, have not lived through this.

So it’s uncharted territory for most living human beings right now to know what it’s like to experience that type of economic environment.

Rory: And we did a podcast on, uh, AJ’s grandmother. Uh, she just died a couple years ago, but she was 103. Oh my God. And I interviewed her on our podcast. When she was, I think [00:42:00] 101 and she was talking about like, so she was born in 1912.

So she was, she was, wow. She was talking about the Great Depression. She was talking about the first time she saw the airplane, like exactly what you’re saying. But it was like, yeah, so I think, I think she died like 2015, so it’s like the. It’s exactly what you’re saying. There’s no, there’s nobody else left that’s been through that.

That’s a crazy thought. We have

Ryan: no elders. You and I are closer to being our elders, the elders on this planet than we are to being youth. So we don’t have elders who have gone through this experience. So there’s that, the economic force of what that means. And then the third is the environmental force.

We’re living right now in the middle of. You know what, uh, Nathan Hagens described as the, the, um, uh, a carbon pulse where effectively we’ve taken 4.3 billion years. Of sequestered carbon in the form of sun’s energy that we’ve transformed into fossil fuel and we’ve extracted and used this fossil fuel.

And when you do the math and you look at how much [00:43:00] energy is a barrel of, of oil, it’s like, you know, a thousand humans, like a thousand humans worth of energy is contained in that barrel of oil. But that’s a finite resource. It’s not something that we have unlimited access to. And so we have. This reckoning that is emerging both environmentally in terms of the environmental impact that the infinite growth in a finite system is having.

We have the economic impact of this changing world order where China is emerging as the next superpower. We are living in a dying superpower right now in the, in the, in the place of the United States. And at the same time, we have AI as this force that we don’t know is it gonna solve. These economic and environmental problems, you know, the irrational enthusiasts of AI will assume that yes, AI is gonna solve all these problems.

And then, uh, you’ve got the, a cripplingly, uh, fearful segment of the, uh, population who thinks, no, no, no. AI is gonna take over the world and it’s gonna be this dystopian future and life is gonna be terrible. Um, and then you have the painfully ignorant segment of the population that has no idea that any of this is happening right now, which is the vast majority of [00:44:00] people who are walking, uh, sleepwalking through life.

And the question is, how do we navigate this next season of life? And this, to answer your question, is what the return to real is all about.

Rory: Hmm.

Ryan: It’s how we navigate this next season. Part of it is oxytocin over dopamine. Part of it is more time with God made things and less time with manmade things. Part of it is that the struggle is the solution.

Part of it is that the best things in life don’t scale, but it’s the combination of all of these things. That’s gonna help us navigate this very, very uncertain future that we all face. You face it, I face it. Nobody knows for certain what the next three to five to 10 years are gonna bring us. All we know is that we are gonna be facing a tremendous amount of change, perhaps some turmoil, and we’re gonna emerge in a very different world than the world we live in here today.

And that’s what the return to re is all about.

Rory: Yeah, man, that’s mind blowing. Um, you know, I, I struggle to get my mind wrapped around all the things with ai. I actually just did this post because it’s like, there’s a part of me that goes, whoa, like [00:45:00] AI can be used to create cyber attacks and viruses. Um.

Then AI could also be used to prevent cyber attacks and prevent viruses and heal people. Uh, it could be used for warfare. It also could be used to detect and prevent warfare. So a lot of it, I think, comes down to humanity and how we choose to adapt and evolve. Uh, the existential part is so big that it’s like, man.

I go, I can’t control what happens with China or the US debt. I can’t control what happens in the global energy crisis. I can’t control like what happens with ai, you know? And so I’m trying to just go like, all right, what is the best thing I can do? And as I listen to you talk, I’m just like processing all this in real time, it seems like.

At least from a business perspective, which is, you know, namely the category of this show. It’s contained in the title of what you’re saying, a return to real, more [00:46:00] realness, more authenticness, more genuineness, more in-person, more, more trust, more caring, more one-on-one, less one to many. Like that’s how I’m processing the controllable parts of that.

Am I, am I, am I capturing that?

Ryan: You’re hitting the nail on the head and it’s a recalibration. And this is coming from a guy that built a incredibly scalable digital business where, you know, we focused on clicks, not people. We’re focusing on opt-ins, we’re focusing on traffic, which is a very dehumanizing way to think about the actual human beings that you’re interacting with and supporting.

Right. And I think to the extent that we make these shifts and we don’t try to operate in an old economy model. And we think about exactly what you’re describing right now, which is the unscalable, which is, how do I deepen these connections? What if I think about Dunbar’s number and I focus on a thousand true fans instead of, uh, you know, trying to reach a [00:47:00] million people?

That I believe is the way of the future. And I mean, there’s multiple layers that go beneath everything that we’re talking about right now. But even the

Rory: most important thing, even the AI stuff, is you go like, what is the, the, the question I’ve been wrestling with is, what is the thing that I can do that AI can never do?

And it’s like, that’s the only answer I can come up with is what you’re saying is just like

Ryan: hug your kids. Yeah. AI can’t hug your kids. But what’s interesting, what’s fascinating is, or your clients layers or your clients. But what’s fascinating is that you and I are in a of a similar generation. Every generation experiences technology and has a relationship with technology in a different way.

So like I think about my parents’ generation, for example, text messaging is very natural to you and I. But for my parents’ generation, text messaging was something that they had to learn later in life. My parents are still more comfortable leaving a voicemail or calling me on the phone. Sure. Even if it’s for something short and simple than sending me a text message.

And so when you take that [00:48:00] sort of analog and transition it down to a younger generation, a generation that’s 20, 30 years younger than us, it’s not unreasonable to think that there will be human to AI relationships that exist among younger people that we think is just. Crazy. Like we can’t even envision it.

It’s not unreasonable to think that in the same way that we devote a tremendous amount of time, um, exploring, uh, gender politics and what’s politically correct around that. There’ll be a time where there’ll be a debate around is it okay to have an ai, human marriage or not? And there will be a side of that debate that is pro ai human and a side of that debate that is anti.

AI human. Now, we look at things like that and say, that’s, that’s science fiction. That’s crazy. That is not that far away.

Rory: Oh, I saw it on the, it was on a, B, C news, just did a thing of a guy that proposed to his AI bot last week. Like it was I saw, I saw what you’re talking about is, is here. Yeah. [00:49:00] Now the debate about it wasn’t, at this point, it’s so novel.

People are like, that’s insane. That’s crazy. That’s just, you know, that’s just hyperbole to gain attention. And it’s like, well, it didn’t look like this guy was crazy. Like this guy would look like a normal guy. Genuinely loved his version of his Chas GBT robot, which is like, whoa. So yeah, I,

Ryan: so if you’re not thinking about all of these questions and, and bringing it back to the relationship between these ideas and your business and your personal brand and what that all means, then you are putting yourself in a place to be made irrelevant and obsolete very, very quickly.

Rory: Hmm.

Ryan: So. This is the debate. This is the conversation of our time that I think as, uh, business owners, as entrepreneurs that we need to be thinking about. And, and the argument that I’m making right now is, now is the time to unite, because nobody knows the answers. I don’t know the answers. You don’t know the answers.

Nobody knows the answers, but asking good questions, [00:50:00] which comes back to ask, asking good questions will help you to seek and speak truth. I think that’s what the world is craving right now. They’re looking for truth. We’re looking for truth. That’s what we want. We want what’s real. We don’t want artificial bullshit that just fed to us.

We want stripping away the layers. We want what’s real, and to the extent that we can deliver that to our audiences and whatever products and services we sell that contain that you’re gonna be more successful, especially in this era that we’re entering into right now.

Rory: Amen. Uh, brother, where do you want us to go to get return to real?

Uh, all of you need to go buy this book. I mean, this is like, I mean, this has been like psychology and spirituality and like divinity and technology and neuroscience like, and marketing strategy. Like all wrapped up in one conversation. Like, uh, so where do you want us to go, Ryan, to, to, to connect with you in the new book?

Ryan: Yeah, so [00:51:00] best place is to go to the digital contrarian.com. Every week I write a weekly newsletter, and the writings from that newsletter have been, um, foundational to the book, which at the time of this conversation. Is not yet available for purchase, although I know folks are getting excited about this.

Um, that’s the best place to connect. That’s the best place to be notified as soon as the book is available for pre-order and to connect further around the ideas that we’ve explored here in this conversation.

Rory: Man, I love it. I, I, I’ve always said like, surround yourself with the smartest people and I feel like this has been an honor to just get access to your brain and what you’re, your journey of what you’ve been through, what you’re thinking on now, and, and using that to bring clarity.

And I. I love where we land on just humanness and connection and giving people hugs and, uh, in personness like that, it seems just like that has to be a part of the future because it’s, it’s the [00:52:00] only thing that I can think of that AI cannot do, and it’s the thing everybody wants and we’re all craving. So, um, I love this.

So we’ll put a link to digital contrarian.com. Uh, in the show notes. If you forget, you can go there. Uh, go follow Ryan and send him a message. Leave him a comment on social media and just let him know what you thought about, about this. Uh, so deep and powerful and also practical and tactical. Ryan, like, uh, what an honor, love getting to know you and, uh, definitely wishing you the best in this next chapter, brother.

Ryan: Appreciate it. I’ve really enjoyed the conversation and looking forward to many more.

Ep 612: The Double Win: How to Win at Work And In Life with Megan Hyatt Miller

Rory & AJ Vaden (00:00)
I’m so happy that we are finally getting to sit down and have this conversation. For those of you who don’t know, which is all of you, we were supposed to have this conversation like a couple of months ago and Megan got sick right before we were supposed to record. And then between summer schedules and life, it took us what, almost two months to find

Megan Hyatt Miller (00:11)
Yeah.

I know, it’s

kind of embarrassing.

Rory & AJ Vaden (00:21)
And also anticipation has been growing. So I’m so excited to be able to hit record and have this conversation today. So welcome to the show. ⁓

Megan Hyatt Miller (00:30)
Thank you so much AJ. I’ve been really looking forward to this too. You know, I feel like we have so much in common, not the least of which is our red hair. It’s like really red hair day today, which I love that. But we loved having you on our Double Wind Show. Gosh, that’s probably been a year ago now. That was so much fun, you and Rory. And I just, love that we’re getting to talk today.

Rory & AJ Vaden (00:51)
Yes. And I, and I love that we’re getting to have this conversation because as you guys know, Rory and I, ⁓ we run different parts of our business at brand builders group and we run very differently and all spheres of life, be honest, it comes to our circles, everything. It’s like, sometimes you’re like, how do y’all function as a team? we’re really different. And one of the things that I love because we’ve had Michael Hyatt on the show before, ⁓

Megan Hyatt Miller (01:07)
Yeah.

Rory & AJ Vaden (01:20)
But what I love doing is having the business perspective to come onto the show and to help our audience get to know you a little bit. Like, yes, your dad is Michael Hyatt. You are the CEO. And there’s an evolution that naturally takes place. And this is definitely personal curiosity because I come from a family business. My eldest is taking over our family business right now that I, ⁓ at a very young age, knew I was not going to be a part of.

Megan Hyatt Miller (01:36)
Yeah.

Yeah?

Rory & AJ Vaden (01:48)
It’s in the construction business and I knew that it was not going to be the path for me. But I get to see like firsthand this generational shift from my grandfather started the business, my dad bought it from him in the seventies. Now my eldest brother is in the process of stepping in and starting to run the business while my dad is still in the business. And so to help our audience get to know you because you are not to discredit

Megan Hyatt Miller (01:51)
Wow, not for you.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Rory & AJ Vaden (02:17)
Michael or anyone else in the business, but you are the CEO and you are running the behind the scenes and you have been spearheading a ton of scale and a ton of growth for Full Focus Planner and so many other things over the last several years. I would just like to start with, as you stepped into the role of CEO, which I think was 2021,

Megan Hyatt Miller (02:29)
Yeah.

2021 kind of unofficially in 2020, but officially in 2021 January. Yeah.

Rory & AJ Vaden (02:42)
What did that transition feel like? And so that’s the first question, like to help everyone. It’s like, okay, for many of you listening, I just know it’s like, if you’re in small business mode or entrepreneur mode, it’s like you work with a spouse or a parent or a sibling or a child. There’s, there’s a lot of that that happens in this world. So that’s my first question is what did that transition feel like? But then my second question is what has surprised you about stepping into this role with family?

Megan Hyatt Miller (02:55)
Yeah.

Mmm.

Rory & AJ Vaden (03:12)
that you did not expect.

Megan Hyatt Miller (03:14)
Yeah, I love both of those questions. A couple of things. First of all, like you, my husband works in the business. He is our chief content officer. He actually reports to me. So that’s funny too, you know? And then my sister is, my youngest sister, I have four sisters, but my youngest sister, Marissa, is our chief marketing officer. And that has not always been true. Joel, my husband has worked with us for a long time since about 2014, but she’s just come into this role in the

years. And so we are really a family business. know, we have our, you know, leadership team is primarily made up of family members. And it’s so interesting. I’ll come back to that in a second. But you know, when ⁓ I transitioned into the CEO role, it was so unusual, because ⁓ COVID was still active and happening. And that was such a strange time in business, you know, in some ways, it feels like it was a million years ago. In other ways, you know, it’s like PTSD, it feels like it was just yesterday.

But it was a very interesting time from a leadership perspective because I was suddenly dealing with things both in 2020 and 2021 that wouldn’t have been a normal course of a CEO transition. For example, we were dealing with the sudden transition to being fully remote like everybody else. We were dealing with the loss of family members. We had several family members who had

parents or other family members who passed away due to COVID. And so I was suddenly dealing with some pretty significant challenges that would not have been the normal course that would have unfolded had that not happened. I think it was a good thing in a lot of ways. I think it challenged me to grow and to dig in, in ways to think about culture in ways that I wasn’t thinking about it before. was something that was kind of easy to take for granted before.

if you are a pretty good leader, as long as you have people in your office, you know, you could connect with them. But suddenly when they’re not in your office, that presents a tremendous leadership challenge, especially under tremendously stressful circumstances, right? You know, we remember those days of everybody’s trying to work with their kids home and, you know, trying to figure out all the protocols. It was just crazy. fortunately, I had the benefit of my dad making the decision many years before that he wanted this transition to happen. So probably

around 2016, 2017, probably 2016, he had made the decision that eventually this transition would happen. And I became not the CEO first, I became the COO. And that was a really great trading route. It was kind of like a little incubator for becoming the CEO where he was still acting as the CEO, but he really took me alongside him and folded me into the decision making process, explained.

how we thought about things like finance, which I didn’t have a formal background in finance. And so I really had to learn on the job. And he would explain to me things like ⁓ how to read a P &L and how to think about profitability and how to think about the relationships between different business units and all those kinds of things that a lot of entrepreneurs, as I have found now, know, fast forward, I coach a lot of CEOs and business owners and they more often than not.

as entrepreneurs, especially if they came from a solopreneur background, don’t have a financial background. And so I like, like everybody else had to figure it out. And he was such a great mentor in that process. And, know, he’s just such a great leader by nature. So I felt like I had the benefit of a lot of investment leading up to that transition, which was very helpful.

Rory & AJ Vaden (06:53)
So you said he knew that he wanted to make this transition and you in. When did you know?

Megan Hyatt Miller (06:57)
Yeah. Yeah.

That’s a great question. You know, it’s funny when we go through these things, if you are in the middle of a family business, like document this stuff because you will just forget. It’s like, I was somewhere with one of my kids the other day and they were asking me, I have five kids, so you know, it’s a lot of details to keep up with. But somebody was like, well, when did she crawl? And I was like, hmm, I don’t know, I forgot. You know, I feel like it’s succession planning can kind of be the same way because especially in a family business, it can happen sort of organically.

It’s not maybe the same as a big corporate transition where you have a succession and the board has to approve it and you know, etc, etc So I don’t know it was shortly thereafter that I knew and I knew that when he Moved me into the COO role that that was a transitional role and I was in that role for you know Quite a few years. So we talked about it I think one of the things for those who don’t know is that my dad Michael Hyatt comes out of the publishing world

And in his role as CEO of Thomas Nelson Publishers in Nashville, he had a couple of unique experiences that I think were the setup for how he handled our succession. Number one, ⁓ he worked with a lot of authors who will remain nameless to protect their guilt, who did really poor successions or had no plan at all. And so they’re either their children or kind of the heir apparent was not identified or.

adequately prepared and all manner of mayhem kind of came on the other side of that everything from it was difficult to retain talent or attract talent because it wasn’t clear what What the future of the company was, you know if you have for example like a an 87 year old founder of a ministry who You know didn’t have a plan for when he or she was gonna step away it’s hard to attract great talent to that organization because it

feels like your own certainty as a team member is unclear or insecure. ⁓ He also had a very dysfunctional transition, a succession transition when he became the CEO. His predecessor, and he talks about this openly now, who has now passed away, really had an identity crisis on the backend of that ⁓ succession. by backend, I mean like the day it happened, it was like.

If I’m not the CEO, who am I? He said to my dad and then spent two years trying to unseat him. It’s just crazy, right? So ⁓ I think he had seen it go badly and he thought, I don’t want it to go badly.

Rory & AJ Vaden (09:19)
yeah.

That’s interesting.

So, ⁓ sometimes, you know, the best and biggest lessons we learn are from when it doesn’t go right. there’s some gifts, right? There’s some gifts in preparation of like, okay, ⁓ not that, right? At least process it a little bit. So, you know, one of the things that I would love for you to share with this, you know, kind of audience is,

Megan Hyatt Miller (09:42)
That’s right.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Yes.

Rory & AJ Vaden (09:57)
we kind of get into this conversation around scale and culture and, and we, because I think you’ve done such a phenomenal job at all of those things is what would you say you have learned from the transition from employee to like executive leader and then executive leader, a CEO to the CEO? Like what, what has been the escalation of things that you would say these are defining moments that other people should realize?

Megan Hyatt Miller (10:01)
Yeah.

Thank you.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yeah, you know, like a lot of people and probably AJ, in fact, I know because we talked about it when we were opposite seats on our own podcast. You know, we learn a lot of things the hard way. Unfortunately, I wish it wasn’t that way. I wish that somebody could just hand us, you know, the cheat code. We could bypass all the hard lessons. That would be wonderful. You know, it just sadly does not work that way. And I think part of part of that is because when we go through those difficult lessons, it really shapes who we are.

And the truth is the CEO that I am today is far wiser and more mature because of the difficult things that I’ve been through and also the mistakes that I’ve made. And I think one of the mistakes that I made early on is that I was so focused on delegating, know, I knew that I couldn’t do it all, which was right, you know, of course I can’t, but it was very easy for me to find other ⁓ charismatic or

or people with high, what is the word I’m looking for, command. So I can think of people that I had on my team at various points who were very comfortable being in charge, who actually had a lot of ambition to be in positions of power. And in some ways that was great. I I love ambition in a certain way. On the other hand,

what that sometimes looked like is they were great at leading up to me. So the way that they served me, the way that they shared information with me, communicated was fantastic. The problem was what was happening downstream, I was insulated from and in one case in particular, there was some really dysfunctional things going on that I was unaware of. And I thought as I was hearing some things bubble up, I thought.

you know, that’s a them problem. Like that’s not, this person is not the problem, but in fact, it was that person. And I had to make some hard decisions to solve that. And then what was worse from a culture standpoint, you know, when you’ve had a toxic type of leadership in your organization, then you have to, you you have to play catch up and you have to clean it up. And I think that that was a powerful teacher for me of…

I have to maintain relationships throughout my organization. I have to know what’s going on. I have to be careful that delegation doesn’t become abdication, that I don’t just have one voice in my ear that is sort of like the one source of truth. I need to have, ⁓ you know, a group of sort of internal advisors that help me to see what’s happening and really create a culture that’s safe for dissent at all levels of the organization. And without my knowing, and that was on me,

That changed in our organization and I had to go fix it.

Rory & AJ Vaden (13:14)
That’s good. love that. think that’s sometimes a blurry line where it’s like delegation versus abdication. it’s like you can’t do all the things you need help and support, but that doesn’t mean you don’t do any of the things and you don’t stay involved and you’re not in the loop and you’re not communicating. But I think, yeah, that delegation and abdication line is, it’s a blurry one. And often all of us, have to learn through the mistakes and doing it wrong to like find your happy medium and to this is

Megan Hyatt Miller (13:21)
I know, it is. Yep.

Yep.

It is.

Yeah.

Rory & AJ Vaden (13:44)
This is little gray area that I can sit in in between the two.

Megan Hyatt Miller (13:47)
Yeah,

yes, I think that’s right. And you’ve got to have people ⁓ who will tell you the way things really are and not manipulate you. Because as you scale, as we were talking about a minute ago, as your organization scales, whether you’re going from a solopreneur to hiring your first few employees, or you have 50 or 100 or more employees, the bigger you get, the more disconnected you become naturally. That’s what will happen if you don’t do something. ⁓

to respond to that. And so you’ve got to be really careful that what information, my dad, to his credit, he told me this and I feel like this was, I was a little slow to learn on it, but I certainly did in the end, that the higher you get in an organization or the larger the organization gets, the more information is filtered when it gets to you, whether that’s financial information or HR information. And we’ve got to be on guard for that as entrepreneurs, as leaders.

so that we make sure we have the information we need to make good decisions.

Rory & AJ Vaden (14:47)
Yeah, that’s good. ⁓ And that’s true. it’s like, again, it’s that kind of fine line of like, how vertical do you want your organization versus how small? And there’s a medium that we all kind of have to. I do I appreciate that a lot. And I think for a lot of us, like we hear a lot of people talk about, you know, delegation, right. And I love that nuance of yes, but not abdication. And I think that’s really important leadership trait of

Megan Hyatt Miller (14:56)
That’s right. Yeah. There is. Yeah.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Rory & AJ Vaden (15:17)
What do you release completely versus where do you have to keep some oversight? Now, as I mentioned earlier before I asked that question, full focus has scaled significantly for your leadership. ⁓ So a couple of quick questions. What would you say to someone who is in growth mode, who is in a season of how have you maintained culture in the midst of rapid growth?

Megan Hyatt Miller (15:28)
It has.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Well, I would say that culture is not something that you can delegate. If you’re the business owner CEO, this is easy to think this is just kind of like an HR function that as you build an HR team, you can just kind of hand that off, like, you know, to somebody and say, you plan the fun events and you know, maybe I’ll show up and maybe I won’t. Obviously somebody else could play in the events. don’t literally have to play in the events, but culture is really the soul of the organization. And as the CEO, ⁓

you are like the body that the soul lives in, you know, to say, to try to mix my metaphors a little bit. You’ve got to have your hands on the culture because culture is really just the externalization of your values and your behavioral norms and the connection that people feel or they don’t feel to each other. And so what I’ve learned over the years is that I’ve got to make sure that I am connected to my team.

now at different points and various stages of growth. That doesn’t mean I can know everybody intimately, but I want to try my best to know as many people as possible. I want to know about their personal life. want to talk about my personal life because we’re not just robots. know, we may have robots very soon, but we’re not robots and we want to be known at work. You know, we want to be seen. We want to be recognized. We want to feel like we belong. And I think in many ways,

the CEO is ⁓ the owner of that responsibility, though he or she may not do all the activities or tasks associated with that. So don’t think you can delegate that. It’s important for you to show up to things. It’s important for you to sit down and have conversations with people. It’s important that people feel like you’re approachable and accessible. ⁓

Rory & AJ Vaden (17:34)
Thank

Megan Hyatt Miller (17:34)
I think it’s really easy, I’m an introvert, so this may be particular to being an introvert, it’s really easy to just disappear into your office and try to let somebody else handle the people. That is a mistake. It does not work well. We’ve got to have connections and relationships because at the end of the day, that’s what growth runs on, our relationships.

Rory & AJ Vaden (17:56)
I love that. What would you say that you have seen for your team, for your organization? What are some of the best things that you guys have done or that you have seen done that really instill culture?

Megan Hyatt Miller (18:02)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay, I’m gonna give you kind of a bigger, fancier idea and then I’m gonna give you something really basic. ⁓ First of all, our team is at this point mostly remote, but every Monday the team comes in and we have a team meeting and we have lunch together. And half of that lunch, so we have the meeting beforehand and then in the morning and then we have lunch afterwards. ⁓ The lunch has no agenda. It is not a meeting. The meeting part has already happened.

⁓ We end up telling funny stories about our kids, places we went for vacation. We just talk like people who like each other and we do like each other. And while that’s not productive time in the strict sense, I actually think it’s one of the most important things we do. We just hang out together and it is easy to dismiss the value of just hanging out. I don’t think necessarily you have to have some programming or play a game or whatever. We’ve done all that kind of stuff and that’s fun too.

But just having a place where, again, you can be seen as a three-dimensional person, if you can get people together in person, that is certainly ideal. ⁓ And you know what’s going on in each other’s lives. You know that Dave went out for his 25th anniversary last weekend and he went on a hiking trip with his wife. Or you know that Hannah did this or that. She was visiting some family members with her dog.

We just need to know about each other. And I think that’s what people really want from work. It’s not gimmicks, it’s being known. So the other thing that we’ve done at various points over the years is we’ve gone on trips with our team. So ⁓ way back, we went on a couple of cruises with our team. We have also been to local ⁓ resorts. I don’t think this has to be, by the way, super glam and fancy and expensive. It can be, and we’ve done it both ways. It’s really, of course, it’s fun.

But there’s something that happens. mean, just think about like when you were in college and you went on a road trip or maybe you went to Europe and you did like a Euro rail thing with a friend. There’s something that happens when you have unstructured time with people and you’re just together. You make memories that those memories become equity. And that equity you can really draw on when you’re in an intense or a difficult season, whether that’s somebody’s personal situation or the business itself.

And it’s so valuable. So I think if your culture is new or not yet in a great place, doing something like a trip could be really awesome. Even if it’s just a couple of nights. And we love including spouses whenever we can too, because we feel like people are whole people and that part of their life is really important ⁓ to integrate into our life as a company.

Rory & AJ Vaden (20:49)
I love that. And specifically because I think to still some degree, most people are hybrid remote at least now there is I have a growing sense of a lot of companies being like back in the office. ⁓ There is still this hybrid nature or still complete remote nature and that present itself with a new cultural challenge that really did this pre COVID.

Megan Hyatt Miller (20:57)
Yes.

Yes, right.

Yep.

Yeah.

Rory & AJ Vaden (21:16)
Universally speaking, we’ve been, we’re in a unique position that we’ve always had hybrid environments, even in our company. But a part of our desire and about build buying a building last year was like, we need a home base for our people to see or to get to things that you said that I just find so fascinating because literally this earlier this week, I got totally Instagram marketed to by like one of the many parenting people I follow.

Megan Hyatt Miller (21:21)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Rory & AJ Vaden (21:45)
And it was targeting me on this research study about kids and the importance of unstructured playtime with other people their age. Non-parental supervised, and it was interesting because this entire study asked children, not the parents, what parents need to know to help you stay off screens. What would incentivize you to stay off screens? And I thought the answer is

Megan Hyatt Miller (21:55)
Yes!

Yep.

wow.

Rory & AJ Vaden (22:14)
fascinating. And then the study also shared all these statistics around the percentage of kids that actually have non-parental supervised time outside of the home and how that has increased significantly since the 70s and then the 80s. And there’s this gradual decrease of, you know, like we track our kids everywhere, got air tags on them. They all have cell phones. Like,

Megan Hyatt Miller (22:29)
⁓

Yeah.

Rory & AJ Vaden (22:41)
I’m gonna avoid any political thoughts on this. I’m just gonna state the facts. ⁓ But I do think it was fascinating that the number one thing that research studies showed and that kids actually said is, I just need unstructured time with other people. And to hear you say the exact, you haven’t said the words, unstructured time. It’s like, not all that different. Like we’re just older.

Megan Hyatt Miller (22:55)
Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, I know. I

think that’s really right, AJ. I mean, it’s funny. It’s funny to think because like I said, I have five kids and my six year old daughter, who’s my youngest, ⁓ you know, we have her now free to run around the neighborhood and we have a bunch of kids in our neighborhood and play. And it was kind of unsettling at first because, you know, my husband and I, he was born in 1975 and I was born in 1980. Like we a thousand percent did that.

but that was not okay. Our 24 year old, who was our oldest, definitely he was not running around the neighborhood. That was unstructured time that was not supervised with friends. That would have been totally looked down upon at that time. feel like, like you said, there’s kind of this resurgence of letting kids be kind of wild and free, which I love. ⁓ But I think we need that as adults too. I think that as…

our human connections have kind of moved away from institutions. And, you know, we could have a whole discussion about that and good or bad, and, you know, there’s lots of opinions to be had, regardless of the opinions, it is a fact. Like our human connections are not primarily coming from organizations we’re a part of outside of work or church or other places. People are looking for that kind of connection and that kind of care from other people within the workplace and as owners and

CEOs and leaders, that’s easy to miss because we’re thinking about, I’ve to get this work done. You know, I need people to complete these tasks so that I can get these projects or services out the door so that I can bill for them, for example. But people are coming to us in part because they’re looking for meaning and belonging and significance. And that’s really easy to miss. But if we can tap into that and understand it, then our ability

to retain those people obviously goes up, but also it’s really satisfying to be in an organization where those things are happening. Honestly, even for us as entrepreneurs, it’s fun. It’s fun to work in a place where people enjoy each other and the kind of collaboration and creativity that you get is huge. And I think a lot of that comes from that unstructured time.

Rory & AJ Vaden (25:15)
Yeah, I love that. And it could be as casual as a lunch or it could be as elaborate trip, but unstructured time where people can just become friends. Um, and, I love that because it really takes the pressure off of you as the leader. I have to have this detailed agenda and we’re going to do these, you know, exercises or you just need to get people together and let community happen.

Megan Hyatt Miller (25:19)
Yeah.

Exactly.

It does.

Yes. Yeah, yeah. Don’t do that.

Rory & AJ Vaden (25:41)
And I love that. think that’s ⁓ really valuable. And I love the trip part. Again, it’s back to, it’s like what it does, like a trip doesn’t matter if it’s an overnight, if it’s local, it’s, but what happens is like it expedites the get to know you process. That’s actually about like any sort of like mastermind or group coaching program up there. Like I think the reason leaving your home environment,

Megan Hyatt Miller (25:42)
Yes.

absolutely.

Yes. Yes.

Rory & AJ Vaden (26:09)
and going somewhere with other people is like, if there’s this relationship acceleration that happens because you’re in a new place, you’re making memories together, you’re learning new things together, it just wouldn’t happen in a normal everyday environment. I love that.

Megan Hyatt Miller (26:27)
Yeah, absolutely. And I think

it’s really easy in like a, you know, kind of a virtual or more remote context. It can become very transactional because really you’re dealing with people on zoom and Slack and it’s, it is all structured because everything is an appointment or responding directly to a message. And that’s, know, that’s all fine. It’s just, there’s not enough connective tissue there to keep everything together. You’ve got to have the other.

Rory & AJ Vaden (26:50)
I love that. okay, switching gears just a little bit. And this was a little bit of a conversation that we had prior to me hitting record, but connected to a similar topic that we’re on through, you know, scale and how do you maintain culture. But, you know, I’d love to talk about like a practice or a belief that has helped you stay grounded through seasons of intense growth as a leader, but then also company and kind of tied to

Megan Hyatt Miller (27:11)
Mm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Rory & AJ Vaden (27:20)
idea of how do we make sure if we’re winning at work we’re winning at home and this balance that kind of has to happen of what does success look like through all the different areas of your life not just your nine-to-five or just home but how do we have you know wins everywhere.

Megan Hyatt Miller (27:24)
Yeah, yeah.

Yeah. Yes.

Yeah, I think that’s really important because it’s easy, especially when you’re in growth mode. was just talking with someone about this this morning, especially when you’re in growth mode, you can become myopic and the only thing you’re focused on is the growth. And then you look up and you realize, oh my gosh, I did it at the expense of my health or my family. And I thought this was going to give me more freedom and it was going to give me a greater sense of wellbeing or flourishing or abundance in my life. And it’s actually done the opposite. I feel like a prisoner.

You know, and I think that that’s, that’s the opposite of what we want. Like nobody, nobody wants us. think most of us became entrepreneurs because there was a level of autonomy and freedom to align our life with our values. That is what we were chasing. And so we have to keep that in mind as we’re scaling and we don’t unintentionally kind of give that away along the way, you know, full focus. ⁓ We have pioneered this idea of the double win, which is winning at work and succeeding at life. And really what that means for us.

is more than just winning or success. It really means human flourishing. You can be successful or win and not flourish, but what we want is human flourishing. And the way we think about that is ⁓ we talk about it in terms of practices. I love thinking about practices because there’s something that feels inviting and…

gentle about that. And I think as entrepreneurs, know, our kind of default is much more like 75 hard, you know, or something like that. It just tends to be so intense. And we need less intensity in our life, not more. And so the six practices of human flourishing are first of all, tending to yourself, you know, we’ve got to care for our physical, mental and emotional and spiritual well being, we’re not going to ultimately arrive at a place where we can say I’m flourishing no matter what season of my life I’m in, if I’m not attending to those things. So tending to yourself.

Connecting with others, just like we were talking about, and a lot of that can happen within your own company, but it’s really critical that’s happening outside of your company. You’ve got to build and nurture meaningful relationships. And then doing work that matters, and this is probably the one for a lot of us that comes most easily, but we want to be engaging in purposeful work that makes a contribution to the world. And again, that one usually we can check off without too much effort because that’s why we started our entrepreneurial journey to begin with.

But this is where it gets hard in the kind of second half of these six practices, prioritizing recreation. If I have heard once, I’ve heard it a thousand times from clients who are business owners, this is really difficult. But if we don’t make time for play and hobbies, and I don’t really even like those words because I think most of us as entrepreneurs kind of viscerally react to that, but actually what we’re doing is there is a restorative

Rory & AJ Vaden (30:02)
Mmm.

Megan Hyatt Miller (30:25)
recreational as in recreative part of those things. For example, when I’m out in my garden, which I love to be, know, like I’m just out there puttering in the garden doing whatever that is kind of putting back all the little pieces of me that can feel all fragmented. puts it back together and it, puts me in a place where I’m at peace. My nervous system is regulated. I can come in and lead at a different level because I’ve prioritized recreation. So that’s number four.

Rory & AJ Vaden (30:54)
Can we pause on number four? Can we pause on number four for Mainly because

Megan Hyatt Miller (30:54)
experiencing nature? yeah, sorry, go ahead. Yeah.

Rory & AJ Vaden (31:02)
I every entrepreneur I know I’m a part of EO Nashville entrepreneurs organ in Nashville and this concept of hobbies is like really hard for people to not win I mean when you think about work and then you’re like and if you have young kids and it’s like I have a spouse is like what am I supposed to have a hobby so you’re one it’s like well how do you fit that in how do you prioritize that but to

Megan Hyatt Miller (31:06)
Yeah.

It’s really hard.

Yes.

Yep. Yep.

Rory & AJ Vaden (31:28)
You said there’s something about being, and I think this was really important, about being in your garden that just, it regulates me. how do you find that? Because I think that’s what, when we think about how this isn’t just for the sake of going to do something that’s not work, it’s like, no, like what’s something that resets you? like, literally resets your system. So how did you find that in gardening? So there are two parts of like, how does this even enter into your

Megan Hyatt Miller (31:32)
Yeah.

Yes.

Yeah.

Right. Yes.

Yep. Yeah.

Where does it fit in? Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Rory & AJ Vaden (31:58)
That is this interim time.

How do you find the thing that actually sets

Megan Hyatt Miller (32:02)
Yeah, I love

that. Well, I love that because those are the questions I get all the time. And those are the questions that I ask myself for years. I have five kids, three out of five of my kids have special needs. There’s always some crisis happening with my kids. ⁓ And, you know, I’m on the phone with the school, with IEP people, or I’m doing a therapy conference like I was last week. So my life is not…

is anything but not full. It is packed to the gills with all kinds of family and professional commitment. So I feel like if I can do it, anybody can do it. I’m a good case study because it’s not an ideal scenario. What I’m not talking about necessarily, unless you’re in a stage of life where this is realistic, is that you’re gonna go play 18 holes of golf on a Saturday morning. If you had a new baby last year or you just started a business, that’s probably not realistic. And so when I think about these practices of human flourishing, I’m thinking about

how can this be relevant in any season of our life? I’ve been at the stage where I did have a new baby six years ago and that looked very different than it does today. And so I think that first of all, hobbies, again, it’s not a great word. We don’t have a better word, which is so frustrating to me. like, there’s gotta be a better word. But hobbies sounds like something you do when you retire because you have so much extra time. And I mean, I don’t know about you, but I’ve not sat around any time in the last 20 years and thought,

You know what, I just need something to fill up my time. I don’t have anything to do today. know, like it’s like literally never happened. ⁓ So I think instead what we need to think about this as like really enjoyable medicine to take. It’s medicine for our soul. It’s medicine for our nervous system. Most entrepreneurs struggle with anxiety. I know I do and

everybody I’ve ever coached, either diagnosed or undiagnosed does, I think it just kind of goes with the territory. Our nervous systems are not naturally regulated. We are not naturally people who are at peace. That’s sort of like diametrically opposed to ambition in a lot of ways. And so what we need are experiences that are embodied. Like usually this involves your whole body. So this is part of the answer to the second question.

It doesn’t count if you’re like reading and learning. That is not an embodied, I that’s great for your professional life, but if you just have a research hobby, that’s not what I’m talking about. That might be a hobby, but it doesn’t serve the purpose of what I’m talking about. I want you to do something that engages your body, your physical senses. If you can do it outdoors, all the better. The next practice is about being in nature.

And so a lot of times these two things can go together. You can ⁓ make time for recreation and you can also ⁓ get out in nature. think about when you go, maybe you’re on vacation and you go do something. Maybe you go on a hike. Maybe you just go on a walk on the beach. ⁓ Maybe you go to a new restaurant and you do like a tasting menu and you just feel yourself exhale.

You feel yourself come alive in some way and you just feel that sense of peace simultaneously. Like you feel at peace and you also feel alive. ⁓ and it can be literally anything. it could be, ⁓ you know, needlework. It could be a running group that you do with friends. So you’re now you’re getting connection plus the recreational part. it doesn’t have to be long. It could be 15 minutes, three times a week.

Rory & AJ Vaden (35:22)
Yeah.

Megan Hyatt Miller (35:40)
I will often go out of my garden and I’m just watering at night. You know, I put my daughter down to bed and I go water. And that’s like, it’s not any more complicated than that, you know? And that for me, just being, I try to be barefoot, I stand in my garden, I’m listening to the bugs, I’m listening to the birds and whatever other sounds are going on. I’m saying hi to the neighbors. And in about 15 minutes, like I come in and I just feel I’m breathing differently. My heart rate is at a different and lower place.

And that’s what we want. And it’s not about like checking off self-care boxes. I don’t like that because that just feels like another task. It’s like what restores my soul? What gives me peace? What fills me up? What puts me back together? Like that’s what we’re talking about in this particular practice.

Rory & AJ Vaden (36:29)
way more than a hobby. And that’s kind of why.

Megan Hyatt Miller (36:31)
Way more

than a hobby.

Rory & AJ Vaden (36:33)
And it’s because I feel like, I feel some of that. it’s like, yeah, this isn’t like just going to find something to do. It’s like, yeah, what’s that thing that we sell? That’s so good. All right. And then you said one was be in nature.

Megan Hyatt Miller (36:34)
Yeah.

Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Yep, be in nature, experience nature. And then the last one is stay open to the sacred. regardless of what your spiritual perspective is, ⁓ I’m a Christian and so for me, this looks like spiritual practices related to that. But cultivating your own spiritual connection, your sense of transcendence, it’s not healthy to feel like you’re God in your own life.

It’s not healthy to feel like everything depends on you. Like we need to have a sense in a healthy way of how small we are, that we’re a part of something bigger, that we’re held, that we’re cared for. Like those are very important ⁓ realizations. And so, you know, that for me, that looks like prayer time in the morning. Sometimes it looks like going to a midweek church service. It might look totally different for you. And that’s fine. There’s many ways that it can look. ⁓ But human beings are,

not meant to be ⁓ everything unto themselves and the pressure of being an entrepreneur can make it feel like we have to play God a lot and I think it can be so healthy and such a relief to stay open to the sacred and realize, okay, it’s not all up to me. It’s just like, ⁓ okay, good, I can exhale again.

Rory & AJ Vaden (38:03)
I think gosh, I had no idea what I was doing.

Megan Hyatt Miller (38:06)
Right,

right, I’m like just making it up.

Rory & AJ Vaden (38:10)
I love that. And I love those six practices. ⁓ mean, that is, it’s like when you think about the question, it’s like, what helps you stay grounded in seasons of growth or chaos or, it’s like, these are great practices ⁓ across the board. And I love it. It’s like, this is different than success. This is, what does it mean to flourish? Not just have success, to actually.

Megan Hyatt Miller (38:19)
Yes.

Yes.

Yep. Yep.

Yeah. Yes. Yeah.

Rory & AJ Vaden (38:35)
get peace within yourself and flourish. I love that. Okay, I’m watching the clock. I know that we have limited time, but I have like three other quick questions for you. Okay. What’s one leadership myth that you have overturned since becoming CEO?

Megan Hyatt Miller (38:43)
Great, let’s go.

Ooh, that you have to follow a conventional.

Rory & AJ Vaden (38:57)
Mmm.

Megan Hyatt Miller (38:58)
My dad before me was kind of typical ⁓ male CEO, big corporate background, ⁓ led a public company, then started a second company. That’s a pretty common story among people that are successful. I came in at the time as a mom of four kids, kids with special needs. Later we adopted a fifth child. I knew that I could only work from nine to three because I had to be home with my kids after school.

And that’s not a lot of CEOs are doing that. Not a lot of CEOs would give themselves permission. In my case, wasn’t so much about permission. It was more about this is what has to happen for my life to work, for me to honor the stewardship role that I have as a mother to my children and what I signed up for when I became their mom, since it was a little bit unconventional path with adoption and so forth. I set those boundaries really early on and I’ve stuck to that.

for years and years and years, and it can work. You can have big constraints, unconventional constraints, and still be very successful.

Rory & AJ Vaden (40:09)
Yeah, the hours you work, it’s what you do in the hours that you work. I love that. That’s so good. Okay, next one. What’s one unexpected leadership lesson you wish you had known earlier?

Megan Hyatt Miller (40:11)
That’s right. That’s exactly right.

Ooh, ⁓ how important data is. So yeah, like most companies in a high growth phase, there was a period where we were really growing, but our data, financial data, marketing data, everything was just a mess because the way that you typically build these things, it’s like, ⁓ you know, a patchwork quilt of this platform and that platform and this spreadsheet and this person that led to this person. And it just becomes a mess. And there comes a point

where you have to clean it all up. And I’m telling you that is a painful process. We are well on the other side of that now and I’m so grateful. But I think I underestimated how important it is, especially as someone who’s, ⁓ you know, to use the Colby assessment, if you’re familiar with that language. I’m a quick start, I like to take action. I’m not a systems person, like that’s not my gift. And it was easy for me to downplay how important it was to have systems that ultimately… ⁓

enable me to have high quality data that I could trust. And so I’ve had to kind of learn that lesson the hard way of making sure that all the systems talk to each other, that there’s integrity with all of them, and that I’m getting out of those things the information I need to make good strategic decisions. And so I didn’t know that early on in the way that I do now.

Rory & AJ Vaden (41:38)
I think that one of the things a lot of people like if I was to ever play a game and they said what’s something about you that people wouldn’t guess is that I’m a data nerd. I love I love Excel and people are like you do Yes, like I love so I love that and I think somebody told me early in my entrepreneurial career They were like the best decisions happen from good data That I just latched on to

Megan Hyatt Miller (41:46)
Yeah.

Yes!

Yes, 1000%.

Rory & AJ Vaden (42:07)
and became really obsessive about. ⁓ you’re right, actually getting data is not easy. It takes the right analysis, the right systems, the right analysis, the right frequencies, the right timing. ⁓ It really does take like a concerted effort. But if you do it right, which takes time and effort, it does make your decision simpler. Maybe not easier, but does make simpler. ⁓

Megan Hyatt Miller (42:14)
It’s not easy.

Yep.

It does.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah, it does,

it does.

Rory & AJ Vaden (42:36)
the clock, I know I have two ⁓ rapid fires. So I’m going to split this into two. Right. So, and this is just for those of you who’ve never been introduced to the full focus planner and full focus. ⁓ I have a handy over there, but I use the, I use the quarterly planners. I just got like like eight by 11 planner. So here’s my question for you because it’s all in the realm of productivity and I’ve split it. What’s your favorite productivity tool?

Megan Hyatt Miller (42:53)
great.

Rory & AJ Vaden (43:04)
besides the full focus planner.

Megan Hyatt Miller (43:12)
I would say this is a practice in the full focus planner, but we did not come up with this. It’s not original to us. And that is doing a weekly preview process. So again, this is all guided in the full focus planner. But essentially what it’s doing is it’s looking back on the prior week and it’s saying what went well, what were my wins, which by the way, if you’re an entrepreneur, you have long since forgot your wins by the time you get to Friday. You can’t even remember what happened on Monday because so many things have happened.

So that’s great for your confidence, but then also assessing what worked and what didn’t and what I want to take into the next week and then what’s coming up and what do I have to accomplish this week? So in our language, we would say, you said a weekly big three, what are the three outcomes I must accomplish in the next week? And if I don’t go into the new week without that clarity, if I step into that and I’m just kind of like being whipped around by my calendar or by incoming requests, which of course happen all the time,

am not going to steward that week as well as I would if I go in with a plan. I know what’s happening. I don’t feel anxious. ⁓ And so I think that practice, typically do that on Sundays in the afternoon when my daughter’s having quiet time. I’ll just sit down for half an hour or so and I’ll go through that process. And it just makes me feel like, okay, I know what’s happening. I know what I need to get done this week. And as all the noise is swirling around, I am able to focus on what matters most regardless of what else is happening.

Rory & AJ Vaden (44:35)
I love that and I love just the concept of a weekly preview isn’t just the week ahead reflection of Last week that helped inform me. I love that. I wrote that down I’m gonna put that into my practice because I think what so many people do is they immediately it’s like well, that’s done What’s next that’s done? What’s next and just moment of reflecting of what worked what didn’t I think all of that is so

Megan Hyatt Miller (44:40)
Yeah. Yeah! Yeah!

Right. That’s right.

Hahaha

Yes. Yes.

That’s right.

Yeah.

Rory & AJ Vaden (45:02)
The second

part to this productivity thing has a little bit more to do with ⁓ life, work, family, all the things. So if there was ⁓ one tip or practice or suggestion that you have learned, maybe the hard way of how do you help people who are in the throes of running and managing a business and running and managing a family.

Megan Hyatt Miller (45:20)
You

Yeah.

Rory & AJ Vaden (45:29)
Would you say just one thing that everyone needs to know that helps them flourish?

Megan Hyatt Miller (45:33)
Yeah.

Yeah. I think if you want to flourish in a season where your plate is very full at work and at home, you’ve got to establish non-negotiables. And what I mean by that is you’re not going to be able to do it all. That is completely a lie. You will not be able to be at everything. You will not be able to do every, every thing you want to do. You’re to have to make choices. And the question is, what’s the criteria for the choices? You know, when I made the decision, when I

middle boys came home from Uganda when we adopted them in 2011, I decided one of my non-negotiables was I was going to be done every day at three o’clock, which meant I said no to all kinds of stuff. But I was optimizing for being home at three o’clock. Like that was key. I also said one of my non-negotiables was that five nights a week we were going to eat around the table. I I cooked every night, you know, for that. Sometimes it was like Chick-fil-A, but we sat down at the table and we have done that for years and years and years. And now I can look back and say,

that feels really good to me that I’m so glad I made those two choices and those were personal choices, but I made my work submit to my non-negotiables and I didn’t make non-negotiables like 20 things. Like you can probably have up to three non-negotiables and that’s it. But really think to yourself and this doesn’t apply only if you have children or children at home. Think about what are you optimizing your life for outside of work and what does work have to do to conform to serve those outcomes? Because work is not

you know, of making a meaningful contribution. Success is not an end in of itself, know, money, achievement, like these are not ends in of themselves, like we’re usually pursuing these to make things happen personally in a lot of ways. And so ask yourself the question, what are my non-negotiables?

Rory & AJ Vaden (47:17)
and then make your work submit to those.

Megan Hyatt Miller (47:20)
Yeah, and make your work submit.

Rory & AJ Vaden (47:22)
I wrote that down. That’s so, so, so, so good. ⁓ Megan, I could ask you 15 more questions and take this another hour. And I know that we don’t have that. But I do want to encourage everyone, if you are not already connected to Megan, like connect with her. So Megan, if you were to tell people like, hey, if you just want to connect with me and hear from me, where’s the best place or what’s your preferred place?

Megan Hyatt Miller (47:24)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. So ⁓ first of all, check out our website at fullfocus.co.com fullfocus.co. I’m getting ready to move my newsletter. You can sign up for that on our website right now. I’m getting ready to move that to Substack. So I’m really excited about that process because I think it’ll enable me to connect with a lot more people that way. But I do write a newsletter every other week and that will soon be weekly on Substack. And I talk about human flourishing there. So that’s a great way to connect.

Rory & AJ Vaden (48:16)
And also everyone should also check out the Double Wind podcast. I’ll put the link in the show notes. It’s an awesome podcast, co-led, co-hosted, and just really valuable for everything we talked about today. It’s winning in multiple places of your life. It’s homework, but ultimately how do you have human flourishing? This has been a phenomenal.

Megan Hyatt Miller (48:20)
Yes.

heat.

Rory & AJ Vaden (48:38)
episode. Thank you so much for being on the show. I wrote down personal notes. I now have three specific action items. So I took away something everyone else who’s listening did too. So Megan, thank you so much for being on the show for everyone who is listening. will see you next time on the influential personal brand. See you later guys.

Megan Hyatt Miller (48:45)
Love that.

Ep 611: These 5 Questions Decide Whether Someone Buys From You — Are You Answering Them? 

Rory: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Influential Personal Brand podcast. This is the place where we help mission-driven messengers, just like you learn how to build and monetize your personal brand. My name is Rory Vaden and I’m the co-founder of Brand Builders Group, a hall of fame speaker, and New York Times bestselling author.

And this show is to help experts learn how to become more wealthy and well-known. I know you’re gonna love it. Thanks for being here. Let’s get started. One of my favorite things to do on this show is bring you people who I find intellectually stimulating and brilliant and genius. And that’s what we’re gonna do today.

You’re gonna meet my friend Marcus Sheridan, who I’ve known of for years, and we’ve kind of been colleagues and we’ve, we’ve known each other. We got a chance to get to know each other more over the last couple years. And we’re gonna talk about how to use content to create more [00:01:00] conversions, how to sell through content, how to make a, a content strategy, a part of your trust building strategy.

He is one of the world’s leading experts on sort of inbound marketing and trust-based selling, and we’re gonna talk about some of his legacy principles and also his new book, endless Customers, which is exactly what we want to create for you. A stream of never ending endless customers right to your business.

He’s been featured in Forbes, Harvard Business Review. His story’s been in the New York Times. He’s an entrepreneur several times over. We’ll talk about some of that. Most of all, we’re gonna focus on how to use content to create endless customers.

Marcus: Marcus, welcome to the show, buddy. Rory, it’s overdue, man.

I’m so happy to be here with you and your community that I’m a part of, so this is really fun for me. Yeah, so. For people who are just meeting you for the first time. Yeah. I want you to talk about, they ask you answer because this is, you know, one of your sort of flagship philosophies that I think you really brought into the market.

You, you, it has been a staple [00:02:00] for years. What is they ask you answer and how does that apply to personal

Rory: brands?

Marcus: Yeah. Where it came from is I started a swimming pool company in Virginia called River Pools 2001. Things were going okay, but then the market crashed in 2008, 2009. A lot of people remember that.

It was a hard time for a lot of companies, especially pool companies, looked like we were gonna go outta business. But the cool thing, as you know Rory about pain and suffering is it forces us to get outside of our comfort zone and do things that we probably wouldn’t have done otherwise. It’s that yolo moments, like, okay, let’s just fool sin.

And this is when I really started to study how buyers were changing, how the internet was changing. I said, okay, based on all these things that I was studying, like inbound content marketing, social media, all that stuff, what I’ve really heard in my mind was, you know, Marcus, if you just obsess over your customer’s questions, worries, fears, issues, concerns, and you’re willing to address those online, especially on your website, you might save your business.

So I said, okay, well if there’s one thing I can do. [00:03:00] I can lean into those things because I’ve been selling pools at this point for about seven years. I knew the questions, and so I literally, like one night, Roy, I I, I brainstormed every question I had received over the years about in-ground swimming pools, fiberglass swimming pools, which is what we sold, and came up with a couple of hundred, and then over the next couple of years, every single night, literally, I would produce a piece of content, article or video and publish it online, either on our website or YouTube, et cetera.

And, uh, we became the most traffic swing pool website in the world. It totally took off and as soon as it took off, I said, everybody should be doing this. Like, why wouldn’t anybody like this is so powerful? And so I started to write about it on a personal blog, and that was late 2009. And I didn’t get any traction for about a year.

Then I started to get traction and then I started having folks say, can you teach me how to do that thing you’re doing with your pool company? Can you, can you speak about that on our stage? And as soon as I started speaking just a little [00:04:00] bit, ’cause that was always my thing. Boom. It was off to the races from there.

And so by two 2012 I was speaking professionally. The book they ask You Answer came out in 2017. Mm-hmm. But for many people it became the, the Bible of content marketing because finally a book was written that gave you a really definitive framework on how to do content marketing. Up to that point, there really weren’t any frameworks, and you can appreciate this.

In fact, one of the, one of the biggest reasons I became attracted to your content and uh, I don’t know if I’ve ever told, I don’t think I’ve told you this, is because the first time I saw you speak, I think it was on my Let’s pod, but it was, it could have been somebody else’s. I said, that guy thinks like me.

And what I meant by that is you think in frameworks.

BOTH: Mm-hmm.

Marcus: I didn’t know that I was a framework guy until later on in life. It started to become very evident, like I had. I had, I had written some books in my early twenties. They were framework based. [00:05:00] And then I did this as a pool guy and it was all framework based.

And finally I was like, wow, I now understand the power behind it. Right. Which was pretty cool. And you know, that book really did change my life and a lot of people. Uh, hundreds of thousands have now implemented this mindset of they ask you answer in their business all over the world. It’s really been cool to watch.

Mm-hmm. So you may not know this, so that’s really cool to hear, because the first time I heard your name was one of my best friends and, and mentors Jay Bear. Mm-hmm. Uh, he was the one telling me about you because, uh, he wrote a book called Utility and I saw him speak and that was like, I, I fell in love with him as a fan.

Just like, oh my gosh, he’s so smart. And then we became friends later and he was the one that was like, you gotta check out Marcus. Like, you gotta hear about Marcus. And I, I think that was where a lot of my content marketing philosophy was shaped, was sort of that era of going answer every single question your prospect has

Rory: and you’re gonna [00:06:00] build trust, you’re gonna add value.

One of the things that you said is, you’ve said that 80% of the sale happens. Before they even ever get on the phone with you? Yeah.

Marcus: Yeah.

Rory: Why do you think that, and

Marcus: what do you think are the things that people are doing wrong

Rory: where they, they lose the 80% sale before they even even get to the prospect?

Marcus: Yeah, so this number is growing literally by the day at this point in time because we have resources all around us.

We can get all the answers we want, and essentially we’ve become info VREs as humans is. We want to feel confident. Comfortable and informed before we reach out to a company.

BOTH: Hmm.

Marcus: So we know that the average buyer today is more than 80% through that typical buyer’s journey. Before they reach out to a company.

Okay. You take that stat and there’s one other stat. I think it’s really prominent, and we could talk about it maybe later, but it just runs in conjunction with it. We also know that it’s from Gartner, [00:07:00] 75% of all buyers today say they would prefer to have a seller free sales experience. Mm-hmm. So people just don’t want to talk to a salesperson until they are really confident, comfortable informed.

This is critical. So the question then becomes, well, who are they gonna learn from? Are they gonna learn from you or are they gonna learn from someone else? Right. And I always had the mindset of I want them to learn from me. Mm-hmm. Now it’s gotten a little bit more complicated because AI has certainly made that, uh, instead of them getting the information from your website, now they might get it from ai, but still even AI has to get it from someone.

And I want AI sourcing me. I want the human sourcing me. And the big mistake that people make, Roy. They don’t actually answer the questions that buyers wanna know, and there’s a really simple way that you can figure out what do buyers want to know? We call it in, in the system today, it’s called, of course, endless customers, but it’s called the big five.

The big five, or the five subjects that [00:08:00] drive every buying decision, like when you research something, I research something. B2B, B2C, doesn’t matter. Product service. We are constantly researching five things before we reach out to a company. Okay, so here’s the five. Number one, we wanna know how, so these are the, these are the five things that every prospect researches.

Yes. Before they even reach out Yes. To buy something. This is literally the economy of search right here. Okay. This is how people say, oh, I like you. I think I’m gonna reach out to them. Number one, as buyers consumers, we wanna know roughly how much is it? It is the literal gateway of the buyer’s journey.

BOTH: Hmm.

Marcus: How much does it cost? Roughly? Roughly. And once we get that question answered. Then we feel like we can move forward in the journey. We start to maybe start to vet companies as well, but we wanna know roughly how much is it? And we should spend some time talking about that one, because that’s a big resistor.

Everybody, everybody loves to resist talking about that one. Mm-hmm. Right. Number two, uh, we’re obsessed with problems. Like, how could this go [00:09:00] wrong? How could this blow up in my face? Turns out when we wanna spend money on something, we wanna know how could it go wrong? So that’s a big one. Most companies wanna ignore that.

Uh, very quick example of that. Think about how many attorneys in the world have answered the single most repeated question from someone that is looking at litigation. Some of that’s looking at litigation, the most repeated question. Is what if I lose my case? Find me an attorney in the world right now that addresses that question on their website, yet everybody’s thinking it.

Every attorney has been asked the question. Nobody wants to talk about that. So that’s number two. Problems or fears, right? Number three, comparisons. We’re obsessed with the comparisons. We’re constantly comparing stuff online, uh, brand versus bringing in company versus company, product versus product.

Method versus method. Just go down the list. We love to compare stuff. Number four, reviews. The thing about reviews is. [00:10:00] We don’t just want the good reviews, we want the bad reviews too. So we want the good, the bad, and the ugly, which is why the greatest reviews don’t just say who the product is for. That’s a big mistake.

If you just do that, you wanna say who the product is or service is not a good fit for, then you become dramatically more attractive. And then finally, number five is best, best, most top. We love to to almost like file things in our mind and say, okay, I feel like suit the best. Yeah. Think about how many times.

You’ve gone online, you search best product or service in such and such location. I mean, you’ve done it like a hundred like hundreds of times at this point. Everybody does it. So cost problems, comparisons, reviews, best, that’s the big five. That’s what people want to know. That’s what they’re asking your sales team right now.

That’s what they wanna know during the 80%. That’s what most companies to this day are ignoring. And that’s why generally speaking, they’re not trusted nearly as much as they should be. Yeah. So you, this is a hot take. You believe that companies should [00:11:00] publish their prices right on their website? No, that didn’t say that.

Okay. We should address cost. Well, now how do you do that? Can I, is that okay? Yeah, I flag that. Let’s talk about that because this is a, this is a question that comes up inside of our community is people say, should I put my prices right on my website? And we know that one of the most. Highly searched terms with brand builders Group is Yes.

Brand builders group cost. So we know I, what you’re saying is very true about us. Is it? And, and there’s a lot of, lot of debate around, you know, how, how do you address this? When do you address it? To what level of detail? Yeah, I mean. I have talked more about this subject literally than any person in the world.

I’ve got more data on it than anyone in the world in terms of con a cost based content and what it does in terms of traffic, lead, sales, revenue for companies. It’s extraordinary what I’ve gotten over the course of what’s now almost, uh, 15 years. Let’s just look at the psychology of it for a second, Roy.

’cause this is, this is what’s interesting. All right. If I asked you. Have you gone online [00:12:00] and research how much something cost recently you’d say? Yeah, of course. I have Mark, like let’s say over the last year, if I said to you, when you’re on a website and you’re looking for cost and price information, you can’t find it.

What’s the emotion you experience, you say. I get really, really frustrated if I said to you, well, why do you get frustrated? You’re like, because I’m the stinking buyer and I’m just trying to get a sense for how much is it. So then if I said to you, well, in that moment, do you say to yourself, well, I’m sure it’s on this website somewhere.

I’m just gonna, I’m just gonna keep looking until I find it. No, that’s laughable. You don’t stay. In fact, we know the average person will stay on a website if they’re looking for cost and price less than 10 seconds before they leave. You don’t have any patience for that. Number two, if I said to you. And that moment of frustration, do you, as the buyer, do you as the searcher, if you can’t find it, do you say to yourself, and this is really important.

Well that’s okay. They’re not talking about it. They’re a value-based company of. I’ll just call them on the phone instead. Right. So you don’t do that. Yeah, because you, as the buyer, you as a searcher, you, you keep searching and you search until you find what you’re looking for. And generally speaking, whoever gives you what you’re looking for, they’re [00:13:00] gonna get your business, if not your business.

They’re gonna get first contact, first phone call. And that is the case for every single person that is listening to this right now. Now, if that being said, if I ask most people though, are you talking about. The cost and price of your product or your service on your website right now, most would say no, not really.

And the reason is threefold, number one. We say, well, it depends. Okay, so if meaning the price, what the price is, depends on what they’re buying. Yes. That’s the number one answer as to why people don’t want to address price. Well, it depends. Every job is different. It’s very bespoke. You know, we have a customized solution that says all the things that we say.

From a psychological perspective, but if I came to you or anybody and I said, can you help me understand the factors that would drive the cost of your product or service up? What are the factors you, you’d say, yeah, sure, I can explain those factors. If I said, can you help me understand the factors that would drive it down?

Could you explain that? You’re like, sure, I can. I can do that. If I said, can you help me understand why some companies in your space are so [00:14:00] expensive? You’d say, sure, I could help you understand that. Why? Why are some companies so cheap? You could explain that. If I said to you, can you just gimme a rough sense?

Rough sense as to where your customers generally fall. Without giving me exact, you’d say, of course I can do that. And then depending on the product or service, there’s many other components that you can address in the book. And endless customers. I give 15 specific ones that you could talk about for the, what’s called the perfect pricing page, right?

There’s like a perfect pricing page, and in fact, if you’re. If you use chat GBT, if you just go to custom GBT and you search perfect pricing page or market Sheridan it, it will help you produce what is the perfect pricing page, and it’ll give you a grade on your existing pricing page right now, just so you have a sense for where you fall right now and how much better it could be.

You notice I didn’t say say exactly what it is. So that’s the first one, is it depends. You want to explain it really, really well through text, through video. Okay. Uh, so you’re, you’re not necessarily saying publish the prices, not the exact [00:15:00] price on, on the page, not the exact price. No. That’s up to you. But I do suggest everyone publish at least the.

That is a, helps people get at least a sense for where it is. And then you can give some, just general, some general ranges. Um, the second reason why companies say we can’t talk about cost and price is we say, well, if we put our prices on there and we’re more expensive, we just might scare them away. But what we have seen, this is like all the studies show this, the thing that actually scares us today in 2025 and beyond.

Is when we’re researching online and we can’t find an answer that’s the most scary, that creates the most friction. Ignorance is not bliss online whatsoever. So that’s the second component. It’s no different than, let’s say, hypothetically you wanted to go to a new restaurant tonight we’re here in Nashville, and I was researching that restaurant beforehand.

Most people do two things to research a restaurant. They look at reviews, they look at the menu. If you look at the [00:16:00] menu and there is no pricing. Are you gonna go? Now? Most people in that moment will not go, and it’s not because they can’t afford it, but it’s because the moment they let the blank. They planted a seed of doubt, and when seeds of doubt exist, inertia occurs and we stop.

It’d be like you driving by a gas station. You look up at the fuel and the prices for the fuel, which everybody has, and there’s nothing there. Can you imagine that? It’s like preposterous, but this is what companies do all the time. Now, again, for service, you don’t have to have the exact pricing, but you do need to help them understand roughly how much is it gonna be, because that’s the gateway to the buyer’s journey.

The third reason we don’t wanna talk about cost and price oftentimes is because we say I don’t want my competitors to see it. It is really, really silly because anybody that’s been in the game for any period of time has a pretty good sense as to what their competitors already charge. So it’s like, you know what they charge, they know what you charge.

This the big secret, non secret. You know when I embraced this mindset of they ask you [00:17:00] answer, in 2009, I was the first swimming pool company in the world. To address how much does a fiberglass pool cost to install? Talked about what drives cost up, what drives cost down, why some companies are expensive, why some companies are cheap.

Make a long story short that article, because we track it in terms of the leads and the revenue that have come from it, that article has generated over $35 million in sales alone for my little company in Virginia. So you think about the ROI of that 45 minutes to ride at my kitchen table. $35 million in revenue track back to one single article.

So what needs to be on that page then to, to say I’m answering that, that, that, well, um, you, you’ve said that’s basically what, what, pick an industry. Pick an industry and I’ll give an example. So it’s super let’s specific, let’s, let’s use like coaching as an example. Let’s do it right because you go, um. In the world of coaching, the prices can vary wildly, correct.

Right? [00:18:00] Yeah. What are some of those factors that would drive some coaches to be very expensive and some coaches to be really cheap? I mean, it would, could be the experience level, but I would say the number one thing would be what is the. Empirical financial value of the result that you deliver. Okay, there you go.

So that’s one of the major factors that you would start with and you would explain that, right? Mm-hmm. So that’s, uh, that’s one. You know, there’s other factors you might talk about, uh, the experience level of the coach themselves. You might talk about the subject matter because there’s some, uh, certain industries of coaching are, are, they demand much higher.

Rates than other industries, right? Uh, it might be the program itself. It might be how often do you meet? Is, are you meeting with the main person? Are you meeting with, um, you know, some of their train, you know, trainees or whatever it is. Is it self-paced or, you know, is it a cohort? Is it, you know, there’s all these factors that dictate what you spend with coaching.

[00:19:00] So the, the, the mistake that we make in business is we assume that everybody just knows how to buy stuff. I mean, think about how many times somebody’s come to brand builders alone. And, and thought I have NI have never joined a community like this. I got no idea how much, like what, what’s what this entails.

I got no sense for what it should cost. I don’t ha understand other communities. I got no clue. But we assume everybody understands the game like us. That’s the person knowledge, you know all about it. Right? And we do that to a degree. And so really when you explain pricing to someone, you start with the industry.

In fact, 80%. Of any piece of content that talks about pricing should be about the industry, not about the company, the industry. ’cause you’re teaching them essentially how to buy, how to make a buying decision. Mm-hmm. It doesn’t matter what it is. The final 20% really is about you and you can get as specific as you want.

I would say don’t be so generic that they are left saying, [00:20:00] but I still don’t have any clue as to what you’re gonna charge. Yeah. All right. I wanna talk about, I wanna shift to talking about, um, content. Mm-hmm. Specifically, I think one of the things that I think people do wrong or that they leave out of their content marketing strategy is content that converts.

I think everybody is so focused on content

Rory: that attracts contra. Like, I want to go viral, I wanna get more views, more followers, whatever, but. I’ve heard you talk about

Marcus: creating pieces of like video content specifically for conversions. Yeah. What’s, what are some of the keys and, and how do. Like, how would a sales person create a piece of content like that to help them increase their conversions?

Well, there’s, uh, this goes back to the big five because the big five is rooted really in the bottom of the funnel based questions that people ask a sales person. If, if you are [00:21:00] really, listen, if you’re gonna blow up your brand to become the most known. And, and, and create the most viral content, you’re gonna create very general content that the masses can appreciate.

But if you’re gonna create content that converts, you have to get further down the funnel. You just have to, because otherwise it’s it, there’s, there’s no there, right? So you have to give them something specific. If you think about, for example, let’s just take the, the case of a, uh, of a coach, right? So. Top of funnel might be something very generic that has nothing to do with a coach, it just has to do with, um, uh, maybe just having better habits, right?

But that’s not, uh, that’s not about, I, you don’t know that person’s looking for a coach yet. They’re just looking to solve a problem. But as they start to realize, I need to improve my habits, well, maybe I should get a coach. And so then they start to research middle bottom of the funnel and middle bottom of the funnel [00:22:00] might be who are the best.

Coaches, um, for, um, like stay at home moms, something really specific like that, right? Best coaches for stay at home moms. First of all, that’s one of the big five. It’s the best of search. People do it all the time. You’ve got a very specific, like who you’re targeting there, right? Who are the best coaches?

We know what they’re looking for. They’re looking for a coach and they’re looking for, uh, and their persona is a stay at home mom. There’s a lot of people that search that, right? So that is. Much towards the bottom of the funnel and now we know what that person’s looking for. And I, lemme give you an example of how I did this, did this with pools, and I’ve done it many, many times with many companies since then.

One of the things that I did that was an incredible conversion tool, which was highly like, freaked people out, the first time I did it was I was sitting in Richmond, Virginia one night, this is when I was still a pool guy back in the day. And I met [00:23:00] with this couple for like an hour and a half and they said.

Marcus, we like you. We think we wanna get this pool from you, but if we don’t get this pool from you, is there anybody else that you might recommend? And I thought, oh my goodness, are they really not gonna get this pool tonight? They didn’t get the pool tonight, Roy, because they were, in their mind, not ready.

They were still looking. And so I had a long drive home and I thought to myself, well, I didn’t make the sale, but they asked the question, which means I need to answer it. So I went home that night and I wrote an article that was. Who are the best pool builders in Richmond, Virginia. And I came up with a list of five of the best pool builders in Richmond, Virginia, and described each one.

Now, how did I choose the five based on who I had lost the most to Over the course of what was almost a decade at that point? Yeah, about a decade at that point. Okay. Now, when I did this, my two business partner freaked out a little bit ’cause they. What you’re talking about, our competitors on our site, why would you do that?

I’m like, first of all, if they’re reading this article, where are they? They’re like, oh, [00:24:00] well they’re on our website. I’m like, yes. If they’re on our site, it means we’re winning. But then all of a sudden, when you start, when you went online and you started searching reviews, name of competitor, Richmond, Virginia.

Who were you learning from? You were learning from me. So I started ranking for all my competitors’ keyword phrases is my point. So people were literally researching my competition. They were learning about them from me, and they were converting on my site. I had a lady one time, she said, mark, it’s the craziest thing happened.

I was this close to signing a contract with Playmore Pools, who was one of my biggest competitors in Richmond, Virginia. But before I de, I signed that contract, I decided to go online. And I researched their company and as I was researching their company, I stumbled across this article that you guys had written and I said, my goodness, these guys are so honest.

I should probably call them too. And of course, you know what happened because otherwise it wouldn’t be a good story she bought from us. Right. That article, best Pool Boaters, Richmond, Virginia [00:25:00] that year made us about a quarter of a million dollars in sales. And people are like, but yeah. That’s so crazy that you, that you.

Mention your competitors today. We’ve had a huge amount of success with this because now instead of you going to Google, you’re gonna AI and you’re doing the same type searches, like who are the best coaches for stay at home moms on performance, or whatever it is now, what’s happening with ai? It’s drawing from content from somewhere.

It’s gotta be trained by someone. And, and so many of the articles that I did for myself and for my clients where we created Best Dub lists, that’s what AI is using today. So one of the differences between they ask you Answer in the third edition, which is called Endless Customers. And we, we should, we should talk about why I changed the name because it’s relevant.

Um, one of the differences. And they asked you answer. I said, don’t put your, don’t put your company on the list ’cause it sounds too self-serving. But because [00:26:00] AI came out and people started using it in droves, AI was, I was looking, literally, it was sourcing my content or the content of my clients. I mean, I, like I said, I got a ton of data on this, but their names weren’t there.

The competitors were now there. I’m like, oh my goodness. So we were winning on Google, but we weren’t winning with ai. So I, everyone go back and I said, now listen, I want you to redo these articles to not sound self-serving, though you’re gonna need to do this in a way where you, you have a criteria by which you define the best.

So it might be the number of reviews that you have, it might be how long you’ve been in business, it might. Whatever factors you want to say dictate if this company is quote the best, right? We’re one of the best. It’s fine. As long as you do it in an honest way, you put yourself on that list, which River Pools can easily do because we’ve got so many reviews we’ve got so, I mean, so many years in business, so much experience, all these things.

And so now we’re seeing a ton of clients be recommended by AI simply [00:27:00] because they’re creating these best of list, very bottom of the funnel, because that person is looking for a specific company right now to solve their problem right now that’s conversion based content and ain’t never gonna go viral.

Uh, but just creating a, basically a best of list. Just a best of list and owning and controlling the, yeah, owning and controlling, but I mean, a really good one, Rory. Yeah. I’m, I’m the, I’m not talking about a Slack one, I mean a really good one. 1500 words. All the criteria listed out a chart that shows the different, you know, criteria and how they stack up against each other.

AI will pull from that and then they will be talking about you. And that’s a fact. I mean, I’ve seen it. I mean, it happens. I’ve, I have produced this content and like three days later, AI is recommending that company when people are searching for it. Yeah, any coach could do that right now. Any coach, most coaches won’t do it because it sounds, wow, gee, I’ve just never done that before.

But I can tell you if you want to do content that stands out, you need to be willing to do that, which others [00:28:00] have not been willing to do. And if someone’s asking it well then talk about it. Where do you find out the questions that people are asking? Is there a tool that you’re using to see what they’re asking about?

Yeah, I mean, there’s a lot of tools. I mean, we. I’ve always said that the best keyword tool though was just your ears and listening really well, like obsessively listening. For years when I was still a pool guy, Roy, I would sit in a home, somebody would ask me a question, and I’d say, before I answered it, I’d literally think, have I answered that on my website?

And if so, why are they asking me this? Why don’t they know this? They should know this. And that’s the like conversation happening in my head. And so. Make sure you’re obsessively listening to the things that you’re hearing every single day. But number two, at this point, AI is just, is just phenomenal. You could go easily online right now, and if you, if you said, Hey, you know, to chat pt, you’re an expert market share, and they ask you answer endless customers, uh, framework, I want you to [00:29:00] brainstorm.

75 titles under his big five cost problems comparison to reviews. Best, I want you to follow all of his methodologies. I want the titles to be, uh, SEO friendly, but also have a strong hook go. And I’m telling you, it’ll crush and they are just money. It is, there’s so much, just like there’s so much training content out there for you at this point.

Like for, for me, it’s, I look at these brainstorms. It does. I’m like, it’s like I’m sitting in that person’s living room coaching them right now. It’s wild. Hm. You mentioned you changed the title, you went I did. Went from, they from, from, uh, they ask you answer to endless customers. Yeah. So what’s the, what’s the, what’s the story there?

Yeah. Well, when I was, uh, listening to some chap named Roy Vaden one time, and he was talking about, I’m gonna use my words here. It might not be your exact words, but, but what I took from it, and by the way, man, the amount of people I have taught this to now is a crazy high number. I realized that. Although [00:30:00] they ask you answer was great.

It didn’t pass the I one I wish test. Right. So the I one I wish test for those that are listening, most of you know it is. Ideally you should be able to say before the title I want, or I wish like, I wanna win friends and influence people, I wish I could have a four hour work week. Right. You know, and that’s, it’s a very simple to say the problem with they ask you answer and this is the thing that many.

Authors, thought leaders, et cetera, do is they name it the framework or the, the, the secret sauce. The problem is they ask you answer did really, really well over the course of, uh, you know, the seven, eight years that’s been out mainly as a referral based book or people seeing me speak about it. Mm-hmm. But nobody walked by it on a shelf and said.

That right there is what I want. Mm-hmm. And so, because I, I heard that from you, I was like, oh my, because I always felt like the ask you answer was [00:31:00] so good. It easily could have done a million copies instead it did a hundred some thousand copies. Right. And so I’m like, well, let’s change, let’s change the title on this third edition.

A lot of people said, that’s crazy, but I was totally, because they ask your answer still, it’s still a framework there in. But it’s, it’s not the title of the book. Yeah. I mean, the analogy that we use a lot of times is it’s the difference between the vehicle and the destination. Yeah. And when you created the framework, when you created the methodology you’re so passionate about Yeah.

Wanna give it to everybody. And so you name your book, your program, your, your title, whatever you name it, a about the vehicle. But what people really want is the destination. In order to get them to buy, you have to like market about the destination. And so I I love that you made that move. ’cause that is, you know, they ask you answers like, I, I don’t know what it is unless you’ve explained it to me.

Yeah. Endless customers. It’s like, I, I want, I want to know how to get that. Yeah. And they ask you answers your vehicle to get endless [00:32:00] customers, which is

Rory: the destination.

Marcus: Yeah. And because I, I, I personally work with brand builders, um. It, we, we launched the book. It was written a lot more, uh, system oriented.

Mm. So I really said I want this to be more like the EOS of, in this case, content. You know, if you wanna become the most known and trusted brand in your market and you want to content strategy. Endless customers is gonna show you exactly how to do it. Mm-hmm. And, uh, you know, it, it hit the USA today bestseller list we were using.

You guys, congratulations. That in that process, which was, which was, which was great to see, you know, and, um, so it was really a relaunch of a new edition and you just changed the name. Yeah. And here I, but one more story about the power of titles because it’s a big deal and your audience will really appreciate this.

And I probably shouldn’t say it, but I’m say it anyway. Might get me in trouble. So I did the ask you answer through Wiley and I went to [00:33:00] them and I said I wanna do a third edition of the book. And, uh, on the first two editions, this might surprise people. I didn’t get any advance. I was an unknown author.

They did expect the asked your answer to do that. Well, it did way, way, way better than people. Anticipated. Mm-hmm. So I was one of those risky authors. I had never gotten in advance. And I was talking to one of the heads at Wiley and I said, I wanna do a third edition. They said, I’m not, we’re not really wanting to do a third edition, Marcus.

They ask your answer’s doing fine. I’m like, I, I AI’s come out, it needs, it needs a third edition. They said, I said, I’m gonna call it endless customers. She said, I will give you a blank advance right now. Like as soon as I said the title, it’s called Endless Customers by the way. She said, I wanna give you a, and she just put out a really large number and I was like, look at that.[00:34:00]

Of course I was thinking, why didn’t you tell me the title was so important? Like I’m, but that was like the, the moment Rory, I realized even a publisher who has spent their whole life tiding books. Can succumb to the same inherent flaws that all these authors do, which is naming it the vehicle versus the destination, to your point.

Mm-hmm. It’s the most common mistake that authors make the destination, and it’s just like you, you, you, you, you spend so much time on this thing. You fall in love with a thing, but no one on the outside knows what that thing is. They, they only know what they know, and you have to name. You have to name it in Yeah.

Relation to the thing that they want. The thing that they know, the thing that they understand right now. And it is just, it, it that, that, that’s funny. I did not hear, I’ve never heard that story. Yeah. About the It’s good ones, but it, it is that way. ’cause it’s, it’s not a gimmick that we [00:35:00] invented. It’s, it’s a pattern that we identified that’s rooted in human psychology.

Yep. As we go, we, we pay attention to things that we want. And if you just name your thing to complete that sentence,

Rory: I want blank. Now all of a sudden I’m paying attention. If you name your thing as anything other than something that completes that sentence, I want blank. I’m not as likely to pay attention.

Marcus: And so, and man, I tell you, I’m catching people all the time on this because I get authors because constantly reaching out and, uh, wanna be authors like, and, and they’re, they’re sending me their stuff. You, you deal with this. I can’t even imagine how much you deal with it. And I, nine outta 10 times, I’m like.

Just so you know, it doesn’t pass eye one wish test. And they’re like, what’s the eye one? I wish test. I’m like, well, here’s how it works. And every time they’re like, oh my goodness. I’m like, yeah. So there you go. They, they end up thanking me, you know, like months later you just changed the whole trajectory of the book because of that right there.

That’s so good. I always credit you [00:36:00] though, big dog. Thank you. Thank you. Um, so the, what do you think are the biggest mistakes that people are making right now in how they’re creating content? Um, what are they not doing that they should be doing? What is something that you didn’t use to do that you do now?

Um, where are they falling victim to? Like the trend versus going, no. If, if you wanna move your business forward, what is the one type, one piece of content that we need to create like tomorrow? Yeah. Lemme give you a few different things here. Okay. In endless customers, there’s. It’s really built on four pillars.

We call it the four pillars of a known and trusted brand. So if you’re listening to this right now, let’s do an audit together. If you’re listening to this, because I really want you to be self-aware and honest, and I want you to answer, are you doing these four pillars right now? Number one, are we consistently saying online what [00:37:00] others in our space aren’t willing to say?

That’s number one. That create, these are four things that create trust. Yes, in how you market. If you wanna be the most known and trusted brand in your market. Wherever that is, local or national, these are the four pillars. You gotta, you, you build your content strategy off of number one. You, you gotta be willing to say what others aren’t willing to say.

All right. The cost example is a perfect example of that one. Okay. Number two, you have to be willing to show with video what others aren’t willing to show.

BOTH: Mm.

Marcus: Now, there’s a bunch of examples I could get on this, but let me, lemme just give a really, really simple, let me give a simple example of this one.

I was recently, uh, I, I needed to purchase a travel van, uh, passenger van. My youth group was constantly, we, they were going to different activities, but they weren’t going together. So I’m like, I wanna get everybody a van ’cause I want my kids and all with all their friends, and they go to these, uh, activities together.

So I [00:38:00] found a van, uh, in Wisconsin. I live Virginia. I was interested in the van. It’s a small used car dealership. Always risky, right? Yeah. Well, in this case, he has a video and this is how he starts the video. And you tell me, Rory Vaden has anyone, have you ever seen a video? Someone do this before? This is how he starts off a video.

Hey folks, before I show you this passenger van today and everything I like about it. Let’s first start off with any flaws. I’m gonna show you any scratches. I’m gonna show you any dents, and I’m gonna talk about any issues before we talk about the good stuff. Mm. Now what do you think I did? As soon as you said that?

Yeah. You, you, you engaged, you tuned in. I dropped my guard. That’s called, that’s called disarmament. Oftentimes most people, they come into your content almost like with their arms folded. Just like, let’s see what this guy’s got. Like, I don’t know if I’m gonna trust this company. [00:39:00] Whereas if you come right out the gate and say, all right, let’s talk about what’s wrong with this vehicle, I’m like, okay, I’m here for it.

Right? And so he showed what was wrong with the vehicle, minor stuff, but I was like, you got me man. Of course. Did I buy that? Yeah, I bought that vehicle. I’d never seen any used car. Car dealership do that. So it’s no different than if you’re a coach, let’s say. A lot of financial advisor. Example. Financial advisor example.

Perfect example. So a financial advisor oftentimes will say who they work with, but do they say and show who they don’t work with? Not in a snarky way, in like a really honest way. So as a financial advisor, you might say, now. You’re probably saying to yourself, are we a good fit for each other? Let’s be really, really honest and let’s talk about who we’re not a good fit for.

If your net [00:40:00] worth is less than a million dollars, we’re probably not gonna be a good fit for you. Now, this doesn’t mean we don’t appreciate, you haven’t done well in your life. It just means that we made a decision as a company that we’re only gonna work with individuals that have a net worth between one and $10 million.

We decided not to go above $10 million because we said we want to have a sweet spot. We wanna know exactly who our customer is, and we wanna be at a tailor. The way we do our advise, like our advisement towards them. Now, you could go on about that, but that’s just like non snarky honest. Hey, I really appreciate that.

Thanks for letting me know. And how many financial advisors are really explicit like that? Again, you’ve gotta. Show, we call it the law of the coin. You need to show both sides of the coin. You can’t just say, this is who we work with. This is why we’re awesome. This is why we love what we do. You gotta show the other side.

The moment you show the other [00:41:00] side of the coin, that’s when you become much, much more trusted. It’s no different with brand builders. Brand builders should have a very explicit messaging that says, now we’re not a good fit for you. If. The problem is most companies, the only time they do this, they do it. I said in a snarky way.

They’ll say something like, well, if you don’t value great customer service, we’re not a good fit for you. Really? Come on. Now. That’s not, that’s not how you, I, when I would talk about fiberglass pools, I’d say, you know, fiberglass pools are not for everybody. They might not be for you. So let’s look at who they’re for and who they’re not for.

If you wanna pool that’s longer than 40 feet, I can tell you right now it’s probably not gonna be a good fit for you because they don’t get longer than 40 feet. If you wanna pull, it’s super customized. They don’t get super customized. There’s, they’re preset. See? So this is one of the big mistakes. We don’t disarm well, and this arming is one of the best hooks you can [00:42:00] have with your content, especially that bottom of the funnel content because the person expects you to sell something.

You quickly disarm them to show that you’re unbiased, that you have their best intention at heart. You do that, you’re, you’re, you’re cooking. So that is one of the big mistakes. Should you, what else should you show? Like when you said that you should show things with video, I thought you were going to show, or like behind the scenes or transformations?

Like before and after. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, all those things you should show, but oftentimes the things that you should show. Lean, I mean, show all the good, but the big point is show the bad. I mean, it’s, it sounds odd, but it’s, you might see it as bad, but actually the customer sees it as as good. So it’s no different then if, um, if I was a, uh, if I was a coach, let’s [00:43:00] say, and I have two coaching companies.

So this is something I, you know, think about a lot. We would want to be very, very, and show very explicitly how we work, how we don’t work, so that people understand exactly what it looks like. So, for example, we have a major culture of role plays within, uh, we have a sales and leadership coaching company.

80% of it is role plays. We show, like, we show what that looks like. Yeah. We want people to say, that’s exactly what I want, or There’s no way I’m gonna put myself in that line of fire. That’s just an ex, a simple example of it. Now, all those other things, yeah, you wanna show those things too, but show what others aren’t showing.

That’s number two. Number three, sell in ways that others, this third pillar, sell in ways others aren’t willing to sell in your space.

BOTH: Mm-hmm.

Marcus: Now, earlier I mentioned that stat to you, 75% of all buyers say they would prefer to have a seller free sales experience. [00:44:00] One of the major sales trends that everybody should be leaning into, most people are not is what is self-service, and this is when you give the prospect an opportunity to take an action or get an answer that previously they would’ve gotten by talking to a human first.

So it’s an interactive tool of some sort. An example of this classic example, a pricing estimator by you offering a service. Putting a pricing estimator on your homepage. If you do that and you give people a sense for what they’re going to spend, you’ll see that your conversions go up 300% every single time.

I have a company that does this. It’s called Price guide.ai. We help organizations create pricing estimators. It’s crazy. How much more, like how many more conversions you get as soon as you do this. Okay? So that’s a simple way to do it as a pricing estimator. [00:45:00] Incredibly effective. Second way that you can do self-service is through what would be self-selection tools, which is essentially a recommendation.

So let me give you an example. At Brand Builders Group, you’ve got what is the, the basic community, and you’ve got the community where you can work with a coach one-on-one. All right. I don’t know the exact, I can’t remember the exact names. Yeah, I mean, that’s what I was thinking about. ’cause we have, we have our premier membership.

Yeah. Which is like our virtual self-study membership. And it’s like, if you know you don’t wanna travel and if you’re, you’re hold yourself accountable and da da, like that’s really good for you. Then our flagship membership is called Pro, which is you want one-on-one coaching, you want in-person events, you want to like interact like in person with other people.

That’s pro. And then we have private clients. Yeah, which are in person, but you don’t meet any other clients. It’s just you locked in a room for two days and it’s like you get stuff done quickly. Right. And it’s high touch and you’d like crank it out. Right. So there’s a certain [00:46:00] amount of people. That would really love to be able to self-select which of those three is ideal for them before they talk to one of the humans at Brand Builders group.

Mm-hmm. So if you had a tool on the site that essentially said, what is the right program for you? At Brand Builders Group? You ask a series of questions, and then at the end of that, it gives a recommendation based on what you described. And the key is you’re not trying to, you’re not trying to. Manipulate or slot someone into a group, you really wanna ask the questions in such a way that they, they say, ah, this is so helpful.

So that when they have the first sales call, they say to Jenny, Jenny, I already know exactly what it is I want. I did that little thing on your site and I know that I want the pro level. I wanna work with a coach. That’s totally me. One on one all day long. Right, Jenny? I need that intensive. Yeah. I’m gonna do the pro, but I, I think I want some of those two days as [00:47:00] well.

So the whole conversation is different because what happens is, you’ve heard us on calls fallacy, right? The more time somebody spends with your content, especially if it’s interactive, especially if they designed it, the more committed they are to work with you. So by the process of them going through it, lemme give you another example of this.

It’s, uh, a, a a third example of self-service, which is self-scheduling with salespeople and or coaches. And this sounds, it might sound foreign, but it’s really powerful. We’ve done a bunch of studies on this and what we found is. Oftentimes people, you’ve seen this before, somebody will have a tool on their website that allows ’em to schedule a time for a conversation without talking to a human.

That’s helpful, but that’s not like really powerful. What’s really powerful is imagine this, and hopefully it’s okay if I use Brand Builders as a case study here, just like as a, like how you could do it as a hypothetical. Brand builders has a multiplicity [00:48:00] of really, really great coaches. One of the biggest questions that people have, if they’re gonna work, if they’re gonna have that one-on-one coaching, is, am I gonna be a good fit with my coach?

Like, how am I gonna decide that? So what we have found, this happens with sales, or whenever there’s a group of people that, like, let’s say coaches, or it could be anybody, it could be attorneys. Imagine on the brand builder site, every coach was listed. There was a video where that coach was describing themselves and there was, uh, a bio that they could read about them, so they could see them, they could hear their voice, they can learn from them, and then the person can choose who they wanna work with.

Here’s what the data has shown us. When someone chooses who they work with, closing rates double every single time. Hmm, full stop because it becomes almost like an uberization of the sales process because now all of a sudden they’re like, I’m no longer concerned with [00:49:00] who I’m gonna, uh, work with. ’cause I feel like I chose my person.

Something about their bio, about their video resonated with them. Now, you as an owner might say, yeah, it’s really hard because we have capacity issues. We have this, that there’s, there’s ways around all those things. Sometimes you might not show everybody. Sometimes you might show if they’re at capacity.

At capacity, not available right now. But it’s really powerful in what it does. And we see this as really cool with salespeople or with like when there’s a group to choose from those people up their game. They improve their game, they show themselves, they work on showing themselves better and it, the whole company rises because of it.

But a doubling of the closing rate is phenomenal. And that’s because you got to choose your date and you weren’t given a date. It wasn’t blind. Mm-hmm. Yeah. It uh, fascinating, fascinating stuff. Marcus, like, really, really interesting. So where do you want people to go? If you want, if they want more, if you, if they wanna stay connected to you and what you’re up to.[00:50:00]

Yeah, if you wanna connect with me, uh, make sure you connect with me on LinkedIn first. ’cause I’m a baller on LinkedIn Warrior thing. Okay. I take my LinkedIn business seriously. Put my best stuff there first. And uh, make sure you get the book, uh, endless customers.com. Obviously you can get it on Amazon, it’s on Audible as well, and you can find me as a speaker.

I speak full time all over the world. Marcus sheridan.com. Awesome man. Well, thanks for this. This is a lot, this is some really great compelling data points and some like challenging things to be thinking through. So, um, I appreciate the, uh. The conversation and as I, as I, as I said, the intellectually stimulating conversation, what we’re after.

So, uh, appreciate you being here buddy, and we wish you the best. Yeah, my pleasure, man. Thank

Rory: you.

Marcus: Cool.

Ep 610: Building Your Brand (And Your Business) With Your WHO In Mind

Rory & AJ Vaden (00:01)
Hey everybody and welcome to the influential personal brand podcast. Jess Connolly is the amazing guest that you just heard me introduce. And we’re so, so, so excited to have her on the show because I have to tell you my good friend and team member at BBG, Laura Robinson has been literally singing Jess’s praises for months if not.

Years about you have to meet you have to meet you guys have to you have to have her on the show And so today is the day where after months of planning and scheduling we have finally made it happen Just we are so excited to have you on the show. So welcome

Jess (00:37)
I’m so honored to be here and yeah, just a big fan of Laura and I know she is just An incredible asset to your team and she’s also just an incredible asset to the world I love knowing her and love love getting to watch what you guys do

Rory & AJ Vaden (00:52)
Yes, well, she is amazing. But that’s the best part about knowing amazing people because they know amazing people. then you just meet each other. So okay, so I mentioned in your intro that you’ve written several books. You’re a pastor, you’re a mom, a wife, and we have four little ones, right, four kids.

Jess (00:58)
Amen.

Yeah, they’re not so little. My kids are pretty older. Or guess older, but I four children. Yeah.

Rory & AJ Vaden (01:16)
But if you just think about that for everyone who’s listening, like, four kids is a lot, right? One kid is a lot. Writing one book is a lot, much less. Is this your fourth book coming out soon?

Jess (01:21)
Yes. Yes.

No, my book coming out in September is my 12th traditionally published book.

Rory & AJ Vaden (01:31)
12 foot, my gosh, I only have, see, I only have three of your books. I actually have, this

was one of my summer reads, Tired of Being Tired. So I have a lot of work to do to catch up on all of your work. I only have three of them, but I too am a huge fan of your work. And one of the things that I would just love to do is help our audience get to know a little bit of your journey of where did you start? Like take us all the way back into when you started your professional endeavors and

Jess (01:39)
⁓

That’s alright.

Rory & AJ Vaden (02:01)
And ultimately, okay, I was like thinking four books. You have 12 books. Like there’s a lot of effort, a lot of work, a lot of brain power that goes into writing any book, much less that many. But in addition to that, you’re running a household, a family, helping run a church. You’re speaking. Like you’re doing so many things. So how did that all come about?

Jess (02:22)
Yeah, well, it was fairly organic for me. I’ll start in childhood, but I promise I won’t go every year of my life. But ⁓ one of my earliest memories is I knew that I loved to write and I knew that I could compel people with my words pretty well. So I always felt when I would get in trouble as a kid, the first thing I would do would be to write my parents a letter.

because I knew if I could, I could just arrange words in a way that would compel them to not be so angry at me. And so I kind of tucked that into my heart. And then in my late teens and my early twenties, ⁓ I had this like kind of interesting season in my life where I was getting asked to speak, getting asked to preach at different places, and even actually getting published in different publications. And now my family, my husband and I will always laugh about it. like, that is such a weird thing.

for an 18 year old to be getting asked to write articles in different Christian magazines, et cetera. And so I would say like, okay, there was this flurry of activity from like 18 to 22, or I was getting asked to teach or preach places or getting asked to write different articles or different things. And so you would think like, okay, it just went up, up, up from there. But actually for me, from about 22 to about 28 then, I went full blown into motherhood.

I wasn’t in the workforce in any capacity. I was a stay at home mom. My kids right now are 18, 17, 16, and 12, almost 13. But if you heard that 18, 17, 16, then you know they’re very close together in range. We call them Irish triplets. But so they were one, two, and three, two, three, and four, and three, four, and five, and four, five, six. So those were some really intense parenting, mothering years. My husband was pastoring.

We were leading in different local churches, but I wasn’t really working in any capacity. And I, in that time, really didn’t have the margin to. I didn’t even really have the aspiration to. kind of didn’t ever really think I’d work again. I was in the thick of it so much with motherhood that I just thought, well, this is what I’ll do. But in the midst of that, that was kind of the height of mommy blogging. And I was a fastidious mommy blogger because I had all these words to share.

ideas, add all these thoughts. So I’ve blogged every day. I was one of those bloggers who had sometimes blogged multiple times a day. And so I kind of amassed a following through mommy blogging. Sometimes I’d write about the Bible. Sometimes I’d write about my hair. Sometimes I’d write about the kids. Sometimes I would just write little essays. And that kind of catapulted into publishers coming to me and saying, like, hey, have you ever thought about book writing? And I was like, well, I used to a long time ago.

⁓ And I wrote one book and I realized not only do I like writing, actually love marketing books. I actually love the process of marketing. Around that time also I had ⁓ what had started as like a fun little small business. ⁓ I was creating scripture prints on my husband’s laptop and printing them at my house. These little pieces of art and just printing them on paper and mailing them out to friends and started as like a fun hobby on Etsy.

And by the time, I think I started in March of 2011. And by December 2011, we had done more in revenue than my husband’s salary. So we were like, okay, well, this is actually maybe something. This is maybe a small business. So we continued growing that small business and I began the publishing journey and I started hosting events and then I started getting us to speak other places.

⁓ And then that’s kind of how coaching rose up out of all of that because I realized if I could do this ⁓ You know, I’m a gal who barely passed high school. I got my first F in English in fifth grade So, I mean I was not on this kind of like upward trajectory. I didn’t go to business school I I had to Google like most basic business phrases and I realized like if I could kind of Find some success and some fruit in the small business world

instinctively with what I know. If I could figure out how to publish books and actually get them in the hands of people, if I could lead an organization, if I could lead a team and I haven’t had any training, maybe I could also come alongside people and help them step into their gifting and their calling. so coaching rose up out of all that. We eventually closed our small business. And now I spend my days really doing a conglomeration of all those things.

I’m almost always working on some book in some form. I have a book come out almost every year and have for the last couple decades, sometimes having two books come out in a year. And we’re leading our church that my husband and I planted almost 13 years ago here in Charleston. And I lead a small business here now called Go Intel Gals where we coach women in all of these different formats.

So it actually happened pretty organically and that’s all to say that Origins 4 really was mommy-bogging.

Rory & AJ Vaden (07:48)
There’s two things that you said that stick out to me that I think is really important for everyone who’s listening, ⁓ even though everyone who’s listening, your journey is going to be unique to what we’re talking about today. But I think there’s two themes that you said are really important. It’s one, I blogged every day.

Like there was a consistency. is a, like when you say you blogged every day for how long?

Jess (08:10)
Yes.

it’s funny. I was just talking to my kids about it this weekend because they were like tell us that tell us about the blogging I bought with that like I would say ⁓ I blogged every day for 10 years and This was not the kind of this was like before people realized you could make money blogging So I just did it for free. I was just showing up to serve and talk to my audience

Rory & AJ Vaden (08:37)
huh. think that’s, it’s a timeless message that we cannot hear enough, that consistency matters and that you did it out of service and that you did it in 10 years before you were even making money at it. Like this was just something that I was like, I feel called to do this. I enjoy doing this and I’m going to do it every single day. And I think that’s true for all of us. It’s like, if we just stay consistent at something,

Jess (08:38)
So yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Rory & AJ Vaden (09:04)
It’s like there’s a little bit of truth to just outlasting everyone else. There’s a little bit of truth of just showing up, being of service to people, regardless of what everyone else is doing. It’s amazing what happens when you actually just do that. But you’re talking about for 10 years, you blogged every day.

Jess (09:10)
Absolutely.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. And it’s funny. It’s interesting. Even now when I’ll have a book launch, you know, I think I don’t know how many Instagram followers I have. Maybe ⁓ I really genuinely don’t know 130,000, something like that. I’ve got, you know, ⁓ a large email list and I’m now like blog on Substack and I’m, know, on different

platforms, but what’s interesting is I would say there’s about 10,000 people, 10,000 women that I feel like have pretty much been with me since almost 2007. You know, that I’ve been like spending time with in some capacity and as an author, I would just encourage, you know, a lot of times when we’re looking at publishing books or

I’m getting in free orders like 10,000 book sales is like a really strong pre-order number that’s gonna serve an author, you know, for the long haul. And I would say because I’ve invested in that 10,000 group of women for now genuinely almost 20 years just showing up, you know, hopping on the phone with them, taking calls, you know, of those 10,000 women, I’ve got women who will like stop in a Charleston to see me on vacation or like

You know, there’s probably, I would say at least 500 of them that if I saw their face in a crowd, I would know them. I know their name because we’ve been interacting on the internet for that long. And so to some degree, almost anything I put out, that core group of women is going to be with me. But it has been almost 20 years of investment.

Rory & AJ Vaden (11:08)
And I think that out of like almost out of everything you said, which there was a lot, I have like 10 questions from just what you shared with, you know, how you started to where you are. But that’s probably the most important thing is just realizing like relationships take investment. regardless of what we hear today, relationships are still how businesses grow. It’s still how content is received. It’s still how book launch happen, regardless of what we think.

Jess (11:27)
Yes.

Yeah.

Rory & AJ Vaden (11:33)
having real life connection and real life relationships because you’ve been at it for a long time serving people, getting to know them, connecting with them. It’s not all about paid ads and trying to convert strangers on the internet. It’s about how can I reach someone and serve them, know them and do it consistently over the course of time. Those are just things we cannot hear enough because there’s so much noise out there talking about

Jess (11:51)
Yeah.

Okay.

Rory & AJ Vaden (12:02)
you know, this funnel and this challenge and this and it’s like, you know, have a six figure launch with a bunch of strangers on the internet. And it’s like, does that really work consistently? Right. there’s, there’s a lot of what you said that I think is really impactful of y’all. It takes time. And that’s okay because I imagine that 10 years of blogging every single day made you a phenomenal writer.

Jess (12:13)
Yeah.

Yeah.

You know, it certainly honed my ability to get get 500 to a thousand words out every single day So that’s the other things people will say like how have you written that many books? I’m like, well, I just write 500 to thousand words every day, which actually is about 40 minutes of writing, you know But you write a thousand words a day for two months and that’s a manuscript about 60,000 words. So Yeah

Rory & AJ Vaden (12:52)
Yeah, I mean the average manager

today is like 52,000 words and that’s like exactly that timeframe. But again, it’s about honing the craft. You gotta do it. You gotta do it again and again and again. So I love that. Okay, the second thing you said that I’d love for you to talk a little bit about is it wasn’t just that I loved writing. I loved marketing the book. That’s something a lot of authors possess. I think a lot of people go,

Jess (13:02)
Yeah, yeah.

Yes.

Rory & AJ Vaden (13:20)
All the work is in the writing of the book. And then they’re like, ⁓ I’m done. But really it’s, you know, just part one, it’s done. Now the marketing and the selling is actually how you get people to know about the book. So what have you learned about marketing the book that you did not know when you started? And if somebody was out there going, I want to write a book or I’m about to launch a book, when it comes to actually marketing and selling books, getting it in the hands of people, what would you say has worked?

Jess (13:22)
Yep.

Mm-hmm.

Rory & AJ Vaden (13:50)
for you that may be here very often.

Jess (13:51)
Whoa.

I love this question. So, okay, here’s the first thing I’ll say and I’ll just encourage anyone who is excited about writing a book or maybe even like running their own business or, you know, loves running their own brand and doesn’t enjoy marketing ⁓ or doesn’t enjoy promoting themselves or showing up on social media. ⁓ I think the biggest thing that has served me is that I see marketing as a way to serve.

And I will also say, also see using social media as a privilege. Women who were doing what I am doing 20, 30, 40 years ago, first of all, they weren’t getting book deals. Second of all, if they were, they were having to do so much more legwork. I think all the time about Lisa Turkhurst. She’s probably, she’s one of the foremost.

you know, female authors who’s Christian authors who’s still publishing today. She puts out a book every year, every other year. ⁓ And I have heard just incredible stories about Lisa 20, 25 years ago. She was doing things like mailing newsletters to everyone in her city, like, hey, I’d love to come speak at your church. I’d love to come to your event. The fact that we just get to show up, pick up our phones, turn them on and serve people.

immediately that we should see that as such a privilege. We should be so honored that we get to use social media. And so I would say that as number one. Number two, the same thing about marketing is that I like you. I hear from so many authors who are like, oh, this is not my favorite part. I don’t love this part. I just like the writing. And so I would say if you are going to spend the time of your life to write 50 to 60,000 words, you should hope and pray.

that they are going to have a life changing positive effect on someone’s life. And if you believe that, if you say like, wanted to write this book because I actually want to create and cultivate a positive life giving change in the reader’s life, then wouldn’t you want to get that in as many hands as possible? Wouldn’t you want to serve as many people as possible? So I would say that’s number two.

And then number three, then kind of like the backend thing I hear is like, yes, but I hate promoting myself. And I would say, if I’m honest, I don’t feel like I have promoted myself one single day of marketing. I don’t want to promote myself. I’m not the product. What I do want to do is communicate with people about what I believe will serve them and help them live more fully awake.

And so talk about the problem, talk about the promise, talk about how this book or this product or this idea is actually going to create lasting change in their life. And then you’re never promoting you. You’re actually talking about them. You’re actually talking about this problem or this issue in their lives. So those things have typically helped me a ton, just kind of conceptually with book marketing. But the biggest thing I would say is that

I spend a significant amount of time before I ever start writing my book, thinking about my reader, thinking about their pain points, describing their pain points in different ways. I spend a lot of time listening to my reader, asking her, what is hard for you about this? What does this look like in your life? How does it manifest in the way that it shows up the problem? ⁓ And so really when I’m marketing my book, all I’m doing and mirroring back what I’ve heard her say.

that this is what is difficult for her. This is what is hard for her. This is where she feels stuck. This is where she doesn’t know what to do. This is where she feels in the dark. And then when I’m talking about the book, I’m only talking about it as a pathway really to serve her to get out of that, to make some steps forward. So yeah, that’s, I would say the number one thing that has helped me love marketing is thinking about my who, getting obsessed with her and listening to her.

spending a lot of time not just guessing about what’s hard for her or what’s difficult for her, but listening to her and then trying to serve her not only in the writing of the book, but in the marketing of the book.

Rory & AJ Vaden (18:15)
Okay, I love that. And that’s so in alignment. We believe the exact same thing. And we talk about, you your ideal avatar, your who. It’s a huge part of our recent book that came out. And so I know a lot of people who are listening to our show know our version of like what we talk about when it’s creating your who and your avatar. But I’d love for you to share, like, how did you find your who? Because I think some people check off that exercise.

Jess (18:32)
Yeah.

Rory & AJ Vaden (18:44)
as a quick checkbox. They’re like, yeah, that right. I know the demographics. I did the psychographics. I’ve done that exercise before. And there’s that. And then there’s so much more. So when you say her, right, I know her and I’m focused on what problems she has. Like that tells me like you have an intimate relationship with this person that you know you can help that you can serve. And I think a lot of us who are struggling with

Jess (18:46)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Rory & AJ Vaden (19:10)
our business or our messaging or what problem. all because we don’t have a deep understanding of our who. So in your words, what is a who and how did you find yours?

Jess (19:22)
Yeah. Okay. Well, I’ll speak specifically to book writing ⁓ as an illustration. So before I ever start writing, I’m going to identify, I’m going to do an avatar-esque exploration where I’m going to write about my primary reader, my secondary reader, my tertiary reader. ⁓ And these are going to be women who are in similar demographics, but are going to have slightly different pain points.

⁓ I’ll use my book breaking free from body shame as an example. So when I wrote breaking free from body shame I wrote to kind of three different readers. My primary reader was a woman who you know What felt like felt like every woman, you know, she had been on a diet since she was in her teens She grew up in diet culture ⁓ Maybe she’s serving in the church. Maybe she’s a leader ⁓ maybe she has been to Bible studies or gone to Bible studies and She’s been on a bunch of different diets

but she’s never combined these two ideas. She’s never like trying to figure out where her faith and her concept of her body image come to pass. So she would be my primary reader. I’m gonna mostly talk to her. Well, for me, when I was prepping and kind of doing that avatar experience, my secondary reader would actually be somebody who was really more in a diagnosable place of having an eating disorder. ⁓

Maybe a therapist has said like, Hey, you actually have this condition. She’s, has actual disorder eating behaviors or different behaviors in her past or maybe even in her present. ⁓ that would, that would kind of put her in a slightly different category. And she’s looking for some more in-depth healing. Why that’s important to note is because she’s not necessarily my primary reader, not, not the bulk of my audience is going to have a diagnosis of that sort, but I have to consider her.

constantly in my writing because I want the book to be safe for her. I want it to be palatable for her. I don’t want her to feel triggered in any sort of way. And then for that book, for example, my tertiary reader was someone who is maybe really well versed in body image, body freedom. Maybe she’s been a part of the body positivity moment. I think when I did some writing about this tertiary reader for this book, I would say like she listens to Lizzo. You know, she’s like she’s down with body positivity, but she doesn’t know at all what that would have to do with her face.

She’s never connected to those ideas. And so I’m really considering all three of those women as I write. Now the key is, and I want to like really clearly answer your question, the key is, and what I actually find many authors do wrong, and what I find many entrepreneurs struggle with as well, is that they no longer surround themselves with the people they’re serving.

⁓ And so there are a lot of things that are really complex for me about being a multi-mission to woman It is not easy to to be a local church pastor and someone who travels to teach and write who still coaches women who still might get you know a desperate Instagram DM from someone who’s struggling and I might say like let me help on the phone with you. Can I give you a call today? ⁓

I could easily say like, no, you know what? I’ve gotten to this place in my career where I’m going to set a lot of boundaries. I’m just going to do what I’m great at and I’m going to be excellent. And I’m only going to actually interact with other people who do what I do and who are excellent and who have large platforms and who are phenomenal leaders. That’s what a lot of people do. And that’s actually like the pinnacle for a lot of people. They feel like once I’m friends with people who are very successful, then I will just be kind of sequestered off and I’ll be great and I’ll be famous and it’ll be awesome.

The problem is that you no longer have access to real people. You don’t know who you’re serving and you don’t know what their problem is. So it’s incredible to sit in a room and identify your avatar. Then you have to keep meeting with them. Then you have to keep loving them. You can’t also like put yourself on a pedestal and see like, okay, I’m the one serving them and they’re beneath me. You actually have to love them. You have to do life with them. You have to…

be surrounded by people who are struggling with the problem that your product or your book or your brand is seeking to solve. ⁓ And that’s what I find so many specifically authors stop doing, but also I think entrepreneurs as well.

Rory & AJ Vaden (23:43)
Yeah, like honestly, that’s so, so, so good because even most of us do it unintentionally. know, whenever you were talking, it made me think about just how like corporate, like giant corporations and corporate entities, lose touch with the end user because the business they started where everyone was more entrepreneurial and everyone was engaging. It’s like all of a sudden you’re kind of climbing this corporate ladder and

Jess (23:52)
Totally.

Rory & AJ Vaden (24:10)
You don’t even know these people anymore. You don’t even know what they struggle with. And when people say, well, they’re out of touch with reality. It’s like, it’s this right here. This is what you’re talking about. But I see that even happens on a leadership level when you’re no longer engaging as like an owner with your frontline employees. It’s like, it goes kind of the same way with not just your readers or customers, but also with your team members. so.

Jess (24:10)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

Rory & AJ Vaden (24:37)
What do you do like tactically? Like what do you do to stay in front of and engaged and in relation with your who?

Jess (24:45)
Yeah, think staying accessible and I would say staying humbly accessible feels really important. And so again, kind of across all these platforms, I mean, even similarly in the church world, it can be very typical to go to a church where, ⁓ you know, a pastor is up on a pedestal and like maybe he has his own community and he has his own people, but like you’re not ever gonna get to speak to them.

Something that’s super important to my husband and I is like, we want to be in actual groups at our church that we are not leading for perpetuity because we want to be in community with people. We want to stay in community with people. And we actually believe to some degree, if you don’t step on that pedestal, people won’t treat you weird. There’s a little bit less pressure going on. And so I would say I do the same thing or I try to do the same thing across platforms.

When I go to a speaking engagement, you are not gonna catch me back in the green room 90 % of the time with the other speakers. I wanna be out with the women. I wanna be out with the people. I wanna be hearing what’s going on with them. I wanna be sitting with them. I wanna be praying with them. I wanna be learning from other communicators in the same way that they are because that is how I’m gonna grow. I wanna be sitting with the teams also at the events that I go to and learning from them and growing with them. And then similarly on social media, ⁓

I understand there are a lot of different reasons why people might set boundaries and not read DMs or not respond to them, cetera. And in full transparency, have someone who has to help me with DMs because I want to be loving to people and I don’t want to miss really important things. But we have a healthy system where she can flag certain things or send me a screenshot of something and say, I really feel like you’re going to want to see this or you’re going to want to respond to this or you might even want to this woman a call. I know you don’t know her, but she’s just been really transparent with you.

staying humbly accessible to people and saying like, I’m not aloof, I’m not off in some glass house where you can’t reach me, but I’m gonna be in this with you. I’m gonna be a leader from in the midst has really helped me. And again, just also helped me to stay healthy. I know so many people who do what we do, who host podcasts, who are thought leaders, who just, they feel pressure.

They feel like they’re on a pedestal. They’re constantly worried about getting canceled. They’re constantly worried about making a mess up. And there’s some safety to staying ⁓ normal and not getting on the pedestal for our own souls.

Rory & AJ Vaden (27:21)
That’s so good. I think it’s important. You said it’s okay to have some boundaries and it’s okay to get support and help and be transparent and all of that. But at the same time, be in it. It’s not something you outsource. You can get support, you can have boundaries, but you got to stay in it. I think this is a really important thing because I think you’re right. think a lot of people, as they have a little bit more success, whether they have a big book come out, their business grows,

their speaking career takes off, doesn’t matter whatever it is, right? Whatever it is. You get a promotion in a corporate environment, make a long list of things. But at some point it’s like, you do, kind of like almost remove yourself from the relationship of the people that you actually started the whole thing for. I’m curious to hear from you, like, why does that happen? Like, what have you seen for everyone who’s listening, who’s going,

Jess (27:52)
and

Yeah.

Yeah.

Rory & AJ Vaden (28:18)
yeah, that’s me. I’m totally out of touch. if I’m listening going, okay, how do I make sure that doesn’t happen?

Jess (28:21)
Yeah.

Yeah, I think the main reason it happens, again, yeah, just to give a massive dose of grace to people who might say like, oh, I assumed that would happen, or I’m noticing maybe that has happened. I would say the main reason that happens is it’s a cultural phenomenon that we didn’t start. We don’t choose it. We perceive like this is the conveyor belt. This is how it’s supposed to go.

And so I would just say like, yeah, just a massive like shame off you to anyone who’s feeling like, ⁓ I think that’s me. Like you didn’t choose it. That was the path that you probably were presented with. It seemed like the most natural path. It seemed like, this is what’s supposed to happen. ⁓ And I think honestly, like there’s bigger questions there, but ⁓ my personal sociological point of view is that we love fame.

⁓ And we love to separate people and we love to other ourselves and we love to other other people But also I would say my personal belief is that fame is a trauma And it’s one that even as leaders we have to kind of continually absolve ourselves of and we have to Break off what what is it? What is actually you like too much pressure for our souls and our psyches to handle? So I would say that

And I would say some ways to avoid it is cultivate healthy friendships with people who do not do what you do. ⁓ And I would say that’s one thing that has massively served me is that my best friends in life right now, know, some are assistants and some are school administrators and some are nannies ⁓ and some are nurses and some are stay at home moms.

And it’s been very good for me to remember that my calling, my career, my life is actually not more important or more valuable in any way than theirs. And so I want to stay curious about what their lives are like and how I can encourage them and how I can affirm them and how I can support them in the same way that they might do for me because my calling’s a little bit more flashy or a little bit more out there. And so I think that’s one way we can just ⁓ stay.

grounded in a really healthy way is just cultivate friendships with people who don’t do what you do. And again, I would also say this is is anti most of the advice that I got when I really started pastoring and writing books and stepping into leadership. I would actually hear people give the wisdom and insight like you need to get around other high capacity leaders and that’s you need to stay around all the time.

You know, there’s going to be other pastors would tell me there’s going to be a point where you can’t be friends with the people that you pastor. ⁓ So not to get biblical, like Jesus breaks that exact example. Like he stays friends with the people he pastors. You know what I’m saying? Like he doesn’t say like, sorry, I’m only going to hang out with Holy Spirit now. He stays friends with sinners. He stays friends with like sleepy disciples who don’t get what he’s doing. And then I would also say like there, this is why we see

Rory & AJ Vaden (31:20)
to

Jess (31:43)
huge thought leaders and authors fall. It’s why we see them experience, you know, maybe even like a fall off in their career, two books, three books, four books, five books in, or they go on social media and they say something incredibly tone deaf. And it’s because they’ve just surrounded themselves with an echo chamber of people who all sound like them and who kind of forget like how much milk costs and what it’s like to really get childcare when you’re struggling. And, you know, just all of that

stuff. yeah, that would be my encouragement.

Rory & AJ Vaden (32:16)
Yeah, I love that. And it’s such a great parallel to Jesus and, you know, just even thinking about, yeah, like his closest friends are the people he discipled. You know, it’s like those, yeah, because you hear that all the time. It’s like, don’t be friends with your employees. Right. And it’s like, why not? There’s a little bit. Why not? And yeah, does it add complexity? Sure. But I was complex. Welcome. You know, but I love that. And it’s like,

Jess (32:34)
Yeah. Why not?

Yes. Yep. Yep.

Rory & AJ Vaden (32:46)
you know, don’t isolate yourself or elevate yourself out of the real world and real people and reality, because then you’re, you are out of touch and you think you’re untouchable and that’s, that is where sin takes hold. ⁓ and it always happens in isolation. So I love that. It’s like just cultivate healthy friendships. ⁓ one other thing for this, and then I want to move on, but I’m curious because I do hear a lot of people talk about like, okay, if we’re going to be accessible, like how accessible, like how much time am I?

Jess (32:51)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Rory & AJ Vaden (33:15)
I was to spend reading emails and checking DMs and like, where does the rest of my life occur? So do you have any best practices around time, duration, engagement of like, what does that look like? Cause it can be a dark black hole.

Jess (33:22)
Yeah.

Yes, yes, a hundred percent. And I’m so glad you asked that because it would, I would hate for anyone to hear my words and think like, well now I just need to be accessible all the time. I need to be DMing all the time. I have actually tried to do that and it has been to the detriment of my work, to the detriment of my calling and for certain to the detriment of my own health and my own mental health.

And so I would say like having a rightly ordered understanding of what is most important in your work, what you spend the time on that’s going to be the most impactful for the most amount of people and ordering your day like that, ordering your week like that in those correct maybe I would say like chunks that correlate to the importance.

We do something on our team every week where everybody, every member of our team draws out a pie chart and then they list their tasks by importance on the pie chart. So for example, when I made my pie chart for the week this week, I’m currently writing my next book. So 25 % of my pie chart went to book writing. And then maybe, you know, like 6 % went to podcasts and like,

8 % went to different content planning and different sorts of things. And so by doing that every single week, I know, okay, what’s the most important work for me to do this week? And then my time needs to go there. So always for me, partially that’s gonna be talking to people, hearing from real women, know, spending time in DMs. But if I spend 25 % of my week doing that, I wouldn’t actually be able to write the book that is gonna impact hundreds of thousands.

⁓ because I’m taking time to DM maybe 13 people. So ⁓ I’m trying to be thoughtful about, what actually fits into the priorities? But I would say a lot of us just don’t know. We don’t know like, is the most important work that I do? What’s the work that only I can do? ⁓ And how can I honor that? And so I would say evaluating that and then reevaluating it every single week can be really helpful.

Rory & AJ Vaden (35:42)
I think that’s wise, sage advice, which is there is no universal best practice. We’re all different. Our priorities are different. Our seasons are different. What’s happening in our lives are different. What your audience needs is different, ⁓ which means we all have to do that work.

Jess (35:47)
No. Yeah. Yes.

Yeah,

yeah. And in our businesses, and I would say like using book writing as an example, in our businesses, it’s exactly what you said, the seasons are going to be different. So for example, right now I’m in a really strange layered season and that is not my favorite where I’m preparing to publish one book and I’m finishing the manuscript of another. But my goal is to get the manuscript of my next book finished before the pub date of

the book that’s coming out. I have a book coming out at the end of September. So my goal is to get this next manuscript done before that pub date. Because once a book is out in the world, I kind of see the next six weeks is for the reader. It’s me talking to her. So I’m definitely going to spend a lot more time in that six weeks post book launch reading DMs and contacting women and talking to women who have gotten the book and who are in it because that’s about her. But right now,

I’m serving her by kind of going into a hole and writing the next book.

Rory & AJ Vaden (37:02)
Yeah, that’s so good. And I think that’s just really important because I think a lot of people are trying to put in static standard rules of how we divvy up our time and that that this doesn’t work for most most of the people throughout the various seasons of life ⁓ and I think that’s good. like every week even you’ve got to take a

Jess (37:11)
Yes.

Right.

Yeah.

Rory & AJ Vaden (37:25)
hard look at like, does my capacity allow for this week? And next week, different and the next week different. And I think that’s just why Sage advice going there is no universal best practice. There’s only a practice for where you are in your audience and your business and your life, which is a really, really healthy way to look at it. ⁓ and I love that. Okay. I’m watching the clock. and I know that we have a tech cause I have literally 10 questions that I have, but I know I’m not going to get.

Jess (37:28)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

No.

I love it.

Rory & AJ Vaden (37:54)
⁓ We’re going to have to continue this when your next book comes out. We’ll have to do another interview. But I have two last questions for you. And then I want to talk a little bit about this upcoming book you have and where people can go to get it. We’ll put the link in the show notes and what it’s about. And although it may not be for every single person in this particular moment, it most definitely is for everyone in a season of life. It affects all of us. So here’s my last two questions for you.

Jess (37:58)
Love. Can’t wait.

Mm-hmm.

Rory & AJ Vaden (38:24)
Do you have a favorite book that you have written? And why?

Jess (38:31)
Hmm. Well, I feel like this is a this is a cheap answer, but I do think it is. I’ll get I’ll give you two answers. One answer is the book I’m writing that comes out in fall 2026. I love but I have to say I usually say that about whatever book I’m writing, which authors should say if you’re writing a book and it’s not your favorite book like you need to revisit the outline, you know, my favorite book is usually the one that

Rory & AJ Vaden (38:55)
You

Jess (39:00)
I am currently writing. ⁓ I do love my book that’s coming out the fall and I’ll share more about it with you in a moment. But I will also say I have a book that is one of my least selling books. It’s one of my least well-known books. And the reason why is it came out the second week of the pandemic. it was just for a woman who loves marketing, it was so painful because it was like, there was just no way we could get loud about that.

in the way that the world was. ⁓ But I always say it’s for anyone who cares about the Enneagram, I identify as an Enneagram eight. So I’m direct, I am ⁓ brutally honest, ⁓ usually like my passion has turned all the way up to a 10. And I wrote a devotional that came out in 2020 called Take It Too Far. ⁓ And it’s 100,

a hundred essentially things of your faith to take too far. like take generosity too far, take courage too far, take compassion too far. ⁓ And the book, the reason why it’s one of my favorites is cause it’s like an Enneagram eight fever dream. It’s just somebody like telling you like, don’t be scared. Don’t be, you can do this. Like, you know, go for it. But also the, there is a backstory and a lore to that book that is so fun. And it is that I, ⁓

I care a lot about writing deadlines. I’m not the kind of author who’s who misses a deadline. I hit a deadline. Um, and the way my life was when this book, when I was writing it the year before the pandemic in 2019 is I basically forgot I had to write this book. I just basically forgot that it was on my plate. was a weird confluence of events. My, my editor at my publishing house left.

And so they never assigned me another editor. so I just forgot. So I could have gone to my publisher and said, like, guys, I’m sorry. I forgot to write this book. Like, I need three more months, you know? ⁓ But I didn’t want to do that. And so I essentially locked myself in my office for two days. And I wrote almost the entire book in 48 hours. And you would think that would make it, you know, a pretty crazy book, but it actually has

so much clarity and it has, it is just the, it’s one of my favorite things I’ve ever written and barely anyone knows about it because it came out in April, 2020.

Rory & AJ Vaden (41:31)
to help make sure people know about it now. in addition to the new book coming out, we’re also going to promote Take It Too Far.

Jess (41:40)
Take it too far. Yeah. Actually fun story also about that book. My sister a couple years ago, maybe that book came out in 2020. My sister, I have an older sister I’m really close with. She came to me maybe two years ago, maybe in like 2023. She said, hey, I have an idea for you. And I was like, I want to hear it. And she was like, I think I know what your next book should be. And I was like, tell me. She was like, you should write a book called Take it Too Far.

Rory & AJ Vaden (41:42)
I’m gonna say.

Jess (42:09)
you always say that and she was like, you always say that phrase. I think you should write a book called Take It Too Far. And I was like, Katie, I wrote that book. You helped me market it. It came on 2020. She was like, I totally forgot. So even my sister forgot. That’s how crazy it was. You know what I’m saying?

Rory & AJ Vaden (42:30)
get the word back out. We’re gonna relaunch. We need a relaunch of this. I love that. And I have it jotted down because I am also an Enneagram 8 and the whole concept is too far and also hitting deadlines. I live and die by my calendar and deadlines. My husband’s the opposite. He’s ⁓ more of a free spirit when it comes to that. I don’t even know how we function in the same household because we will hit the deadline at all costs. And he’s like, what’s the deadline?

Jess (42:34)
We do.

Ugh, you’ll love it.

Yes.

same.

Rory & AJ Vaden (42:59)
What are you talking about? So I totally relate. get that. Okay. My last quick question, and then I want to talk about this new book. What advice would you give to someone who’s out there who, you know, kind of back to this whole concept there, doesn’t have to be a book. It could be anything, but they’re adverse to marketing. And I know you talked about the mindset shift of, and that really what it is, it’s a mindset shift of going, this isn’t self-promotional. This is service, right? But,

Jess (43:19)
and

Rory & AJ Vaden (43:29)
For the person who’s struggling to go, I just, I’m having a hard time because I believe that some of the best kept secrets in the world are people who have spent all of their time honing their craft. They are a true expert and yet no one knows about them. What would you say is like the one thing to think, believe, do, say to help activate this marketing side that is in all of us to some degree so that we can help the world know that you’re there.

Jess (43:44)
Yeah.

Yeah, such a good question. Such a generous question to serve people. ⁓ So my team does an exercise we do every single week. Again, going back to the avatar, it is not a one and done thing for us. So we do what we call a who exercise every week. And every week we ask four questions about our who I’m going to call her she because we primarily work for women. But we say, what is she feeling right now?

What’s she feeling right now? if I’m going to do that exercise, I’m going to ask that question on, you know, a Tuesday in August. so I might say, okay, for me, a lot of my avatars, her kids are going back to school. She’s feeling overwhelmed. She’s feeling like, you know, fall might take her out. She, the summer was too short. Did she do a good job? So that’s just what she’s feeling right now. The second question we might ask is, the second question we do ask is how can we collectively serve her?

How can we serve her this week? How can we show up? What does she need to hear? You know, how could we be on her team? How could we help her move out of that problem? The third question that I have everybody on my team ask in relation to this is how can I in particular in my role serve her? ⁓ And I think that that is something no matter where you’re at in an organization, even if you’re the only person in the organization, it’s a really helpful question to ask.

And then the fourth question that we ask every single week is if you could say anything to her right now, what would you say? And what happens when we answer those four questions every single week is we basically come up with a marketing plan. A ⁓ very high amount of our social media copy and content comes from that fourth question. What would we most want to say to her? How could we most serve her?

⁓ And so I would say that is really what marketing is. Just remember, don’t get bogged down in promotion. ⁓ I love a funnel. I love a marketing plan. I love figuring out what are the new fun best practices. But if you know what your customer is feeling, if you can think about that, if you know how you can serve them, and if you can think about what you would most want to tell them about how you can serve them, that’s marketing.

Rory & AJ Vaden (46:22)
So good. Don’t be surprised if I start having my team do this every week, you’re going to hear from me. Like, guess what AJ is doing? So good. And honestly, it’s back to the most important part of all of this, which is the person that you’re called to serve. Because if you’re not doing it for them, then why are you doing it? Right? That’s so, so good. Okay, now I to finish taking notes after we’re done. now I know how to do it.

Jess (46:27)
Do it! I love it.

100%.

I love it.

Rory & AJ Vaden (46:53)
So we have this awesome new book that you have because I want to make sure we just have a quick moment to share this. You have your brand new book called What Comes Next coming out September 23rd shortly after this episode will air. Tell us what this book is about and who it is for.

Jess (47:11)
Yeah, absolutely. So this book is for any woman who is struggling with heartache, brokenness or burnout. So ⁓ in short, any woman who has felt tired or sad in any way, or form. And I love what you said earlier. Like she might not be feeling it right now, but we have all been tired or sad ⁓ at some point in our lives or we know a friend who is tired or sad. And so ⁓ I would say, yeah, it’s for the woman who has just got it.

gotten a confusing or devastating call from the doctor’s office. It’s for the woman whose kid is struggling with something and she’s asking like, what comes next? ⁓ It’s for the woman who’s feeling burnt out in her career and she’s saying she’s acknowledging maybe for the first time, you know, I’m burnt out. I don’t know what comes next after this. ⁓ It’s for the woman who maybe has just had like a long season of feeling down or feeling like she’s got low energy or ⁓ feeling confused or feeling like she needs some discernment.

⁓ So for anybody asking the question, what comes next? It’s a 40 day journey that will hopefully help her answer that question.

Rory & AJ Vaden (48:20)
⁓ Why’d you pick 40?

Jess (48:23)
You know, ⁓ I mapped out the different process I wanted to take her on. Interestingly, you won’t see this in the book at all. It was ⁓ an internal metaphor I used, but the internal metaphor I used in the book, I ended up splitting into four different sections of 10 days. And the internal metaphor I used is let’s say that you’re in a boxing ring and you get hit in the face.

So the first 10 days is as you’re falling. The next 10 days is kind of as you’re sitting there assessing your injuries. The next 10 days is as you’re standing back up and kind of dusting yourself off. And then the final 10 days is really encouraging her to go serve and go help somebody else who might’ve just gotten hit upside the head. As a woman who fell off my, I fell off my bike this morning, riding into the office, this metaphor is redolent for me because I’m a little bit of

cluts and I do fall very often. And so as I’m remembering this metaphor that I used right in the book, like, man, I learned that out again this morning, falling off my bike.

Rory & AJ Vaden (49:33)
I don’t know why. Yeah, and I said earlier, it may be not you right now, but it will be you at some point. We all have these seasons. so September 23rd, we will put the Amazon pre-order link in the show notes. And then when it comes out, we will put the order link in the show notes. And just to help revive what was potentially lost in 2020, we will also include Take It,

Jess (49:40)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Amazing.

Rory & AJ Vaden (50:03)
I wrote it down. Take it too far. We’re going to include that as well. That’s on my next week. So amazing. ⁓ So insightful. If people want to connect with you, what is your preferred platform?

Jess (50:03)
Take it too far. Yes.

You’re amazing. Thank you.

pretty much live on Instagram. I’m just a Connolly on Instagram.

Rory & AJ Vaden (50:24)
So connect with her. can also check out her podcast, the Jess Connelly podcast. Pick up one of 12 books. I have three, I have many to go. there’s a wealth of knowledge. only that, but you’re coaching the work that you guys are doing in your ministry and your church and just loving on the people who are in your community in Charleston. As someone who does not live there, thank you for being connected to the people around you because we all need that. Thanks for being available.

Jess (50:32)
you

Rory & AJ Vaden (50:54)
and staying humbly accessible. think those are great stage pieces of advice that I know for at least me, I’m gonna take and run with. And for everyone out there who’s listening, just remember that when you started this journey, you did it for a who. And as Jess so ⁓ graciously reminded us of today, don’t forget that who, no matter how far you go. So stay connected to your who. That’s why we’re doing all of this. Jess, this was amazing, fantastic.

Jess (50:57)
Mm.

Yeah.

Rory & AJ Vaden (51:21)
For all of you listening, stick around for the recap episode and we will see you next time on the influential personal brand.

It’s not letting me hit stop. So that’ll have to happen later, but that was awesome. ⁓

Jess (51:40)
⁓ I’m so grateful.

Thank you. Thank you so much.

Rory & AJ Vaden (51:46)
This was awesome and wonderful. So nice to meet you. ⁓

Jess (51:50)
It was a joy

to connect. I hope we get to be in person together.

Rory & AJ Vaden (51:54)
I would love that. Like honestly, so much of what you said is so, so, so, so, so ingrained with our disbelief. And ⁓ there’s so much continuity and similarity. So this was also just really good for the audience to hear in a different voice, in a different lens, but some continuity and messaging that just here in the Fresh Voice was awesome. So thank you.

Jess (52:07)
⁓ Thank you, God.

Mm.

Yeah.

⁓

so glad. I’m so grateful. Thank you. I appreciate it.

Rory & AJ Vaden (52:25)
get all this out so I’ll let you get back to your hideaway writing. cannot watch you writing a book and launching a book at the same time. That just sounds like madness to me.

Jess (52:30)
Yes.

F

You know, was not, it was, it’s not ideal, but ⁓ I did it so that I could have the rest of the fall pretty much like, I was like, you know, I might as well just pump it out and be done. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you.

Rory & AJ Vaden (52:45)
fair.

Thank

Good luck sending prayers for endurance. All of that.

All right, well, let’s be in touch. I would love to stay connected.

Jess (52:58)
Same, grateful for you, bye.

Rory & AJ Vaden (53:23)
to

have an internet connection.