Author: AJ Vaden

Ep 014: Why You’re Losing (It’s Not a Strategy Problem)

Rory (00:00)
they’re losing and they assign that loss to, maybe this isn’t the right thing for me or maybe I’m just not smart enough or I’m just not good enough or I don’t have enough time or I don’t have enough team. And it’s like, no, you’re just an amateur playing among professionals and you’re getting beat because they’re more committed. I mean, I not be making friends there, but that’s what I think the truth

Your brain lies to you. Your brain is one of the things that holds you back from building a great personal brand. And what we’re talking about today on this episode is what are the lies and the limiting beliefs that experts and entrepreneurs have that prevent them from building a truly successful personal brand. I’m here, I’m Rory Vaden, co-founder of Brand Builders Group, joined by my wife and business partner, AJ Vaden. Let’s go.

AJ (00:52)
Yeah, like one of the things I wanna make sure we nuance is that you said, lies that your brain believes that prevent you from building your personal brand or business. Sure. Right? And so I just wanna make sure as we’re talking about this, that it’s not just a personal brand. Like these things impact your business, impact sales, impacts relationships, impacts all the things. So we’ll take it through the lens of personal brand, IE business.

Rory (01:18)
I mean, when I even say the term personal brand, I almost think of a personal brand as just a marketing engine for the business, right, for most of the people.

AJ (01:30)
I know that’s what you

think. huh. But like it’s good for everyone who’s listening or watching to make sure that you know that we have that context in that filter as we talk about all of this.

Rory (01:41)
Yeah, so,

so let’s dive in. I want to I want to ask you let’s have a conversation about what do you think based on our own experience, our hundreds of clients, and just what we kind of observe and what our data tells us is happening. What do you think are some of the biggest limiting beliefs that people think about their personal brand or their business that is really holding them back? It’s not really true.

AJ (02:08)
Yeah. And so I want to use a large spectrum of what I have noticed to be true in the world. And this isn’t just from working with, you know, hundreds of clients. This goes all the way back to childhood, to school, to parenting, to previous ⁓ employment. And literally just this week, I’m talking about my eight year old Jasper this week, we were talking about doing schoolwork. Why do I have to do that? I’ve already done it.

I’m like, you’ve done it one time. He goes, yeah, but I’ve already done it. Why do I have to do it again? Then, let’s all take it back to our school days. How many times did we say, why do I have to do this again? I already know how to do this. I’ve already done it. I already know this. ⁓ And then you think about professional athletes. Think about how many times they have to swing a bat. How many times they have to throw a ball? How many times they have to run the exact same route?

And I think that we lack a little bit of some of that in business when you parallel it to sports.

Rory (03:15)
So

you’re saying the lie that people believe or the limiting belief they have is I shouldn’t have to keep doing this. I’ve already I already know how to do this. Why should I have to keep

AJ (03:26)
I think people get bored with monotony.

We have a constant shiny object syndrome of there must be a better way. This is too easy. This is too simple. There must be a way for me to get faster other than just practicing. There must be a way for me to not have to do it over and over again. And I think that we just naturally as humans get bored with doing the same thing over and over again. And we want to keep changing it up when the truth is the more you do something, the better you get at it.

and the easier it becomes. And I think the lie we believe is that it can’t be that easy. It can’t be that simple. When we think about social media, it can’t be as simple as just post something every day. It can’t be as simple as just put some money behind it. Like there’s got to be some complex formula that I just don’t know. There’s got to be some secret. And I think we think that about sales. I think we think that about marketing. I think we think that about relationships. And I think about often, like as a parent, how many times I’m like, I know you did it.

We’re just gonna do it again and again and again and again until it’s second nature. But somewhere in adulthood, we forget the power of consistency, the power of doing the small thing over and over and over again. And we believe the lie that it’s that easy.

Rory (04:42)
It reminds me of it’s this is I think the difference between amateurs and professionals, right? I’ve heard it said that amateurs practice until they get it right. Professionals practice until they cannot get it wrong. And that really is true. Like the example that you’re using of sports, it’s like, okay, yeah, I can shoot a three pointer and make it once but Steph Curry does it so many times that it’s almost impossible for him to miss. And that is what it takes

AJ (05:07)
every time.

Rory (05:12)
to build a personal brand. It’s like you have to you have to be brilliant at the basics. You have to master the fundamentals of content creation, lead generation, sales, follow up, delivering, over delivering and renewing. If you get those fundamentals right, it’s like there is nothing else.

AJ (05:31)
think a lot of that is we believe a lie that there’s some complex formula, some hidden secret, something that we don’t know yet. And so instead of doing the thing that we do know, we try all these new things and we keep trying all these new things, meaning we never do it enough to become really sophisticated at it. And I think we see that building your business, building your brand, social media, marketing, the list goes on and on. There’s just some truth in the fun

fundamentals and I think there’s some timeless truths that it doesn’t matter what new technology is out there, the emergence of AI, all the new things. There’s just some basic truths in sales and marketing and business that are timeless and it doesn’t really matter anything that new that comes along. It’s just a new medium to do the same old thing.

Rory (06:24)
way.

Totally. All right. The second limiting belief that I think people have about building their personal brand in their business is they think I’m not good enough to do this. They look at other people. They want to do it. They want to be influential. They want to speak on the stages. They want to have people reading their books or watching their shows. They want that. But deep down, they actually struggle with believing they’re not good enough. I think, you know, the classic word for this is imposter syndrome.

And even though they may have spent 10 or 15 or 20 years becoming an expert at their craft, they still somehow struggle with like, I don’t know that I deserve to be heard by the world or I don’t know that I’m smart enough or good enough to be heard, you know, by the rest of the world. So that that’s what I think is one of the other most common limiting beliefs in our community or the people we work with.

AJ (07:22)
with. Like

how do you see that showing up? Because I think there’s a lot of different byproducts of that. But what I think this would be good of you know, for all of you who are listening up going like, well, is that me? I don’t know. So what are some of the symptoms, some of the signs that show up when this is the root? So

Rory (07:40)
So one of the symptoms that people don’t talk a lot about but that since you asked me directly I think is really, really indicative of this is there a dabbler.

they dabble in things and it kind of comes back to what we were talking about a little bit before. They’ll dabble like, yeah, maybe I’ll learn a little bit about this or maybe I’ll start a podcast for a little bit or maybe like I’ll start writing a speech or I’ll start writing a book or I’ll start writing a blog or two or you know, I’ll join a membership for like a couple months or even a year but like they’re dabbling and because they don’t

really believe it. And if they if they really believed it was possible, they would commit to doing whatever it took to make it happen. And the and the truth is, it’s not that they’re not qualified to do it is that they’re not committed enough ⁓ to do the work it takes to make it happen. And so somebody struggling with imposter syndrome is a dabbler. And they’re competing against committed ultra performers.

and they’re losing and they assign that loss to, maybe this isn’t the right thing for me or maybe I’m just not smart enough or I’m just not good enough or I don’t have enough time or I don’t have enough team. And it’s like, no, you’re just an amateur playing among professionals and you’re getting beat because they’re more committed. I mean, I not be making friends there, but that’s what I think the truth is.

AJ (09:11)
I don’t disagree with that. I was just curious. Well, I think, you know, kind of on that same lines, you could categorize this as a another lie, a separate lie, but I think it falls within this category. So I’m going to bring it up because it’s in the same vein as I think one of the reasons people ⁓

Really, I don’t know if the word dabbler is the one I would use, but I think the reason they don’t commit is because of comparison. I think a lot of imposter syndrome actually is the result of comparison.

And I think what most people do when they’re really suffering from this concept of imposter syndrome, which is basically believing that what you have done isn’t as good or as important as somebody else, even though it’s the same thing is at the root of that, like even in that definition, it’s going, no, you’re comparing yourself to someone else.

And you’re comparing your step one to someone else step 1000, your day one to someone else’s day 1000, your year one to someone else’s year 10. And they’re not comparable. And when we do that, we, what we don’t do is see all the work behind the scenes. I think that’s where we all suffer is like we see the end result and compare our behind the scenes mess to someone else’s very well curated end result.

Rory (10:20)
That’s it.

AJ (10:33)
And therein lies comparison. And I think that’s one of the downfalls of social media because everything can look so presented and it can be the end product.

We all have to remember like no one saw the camera crew scrambling behind the scenes or the amount of lighting prep or script prep or all the years of experience that it took to make that 30 second video or the amount of camera practice to feel confident when that red light goes on. Nobody thinks about that, right? Just you mentioned Steph Curry earlier, right? They see him in the game, but they didn’t see all the missed shots. They didn’t see the years and decades of practice.

And I think that’s where we all fall short of just taking a peek behind the scenes of like, why am I comparing at all?

Rory (11:21)
Yeah, that’s so good. And social media is like the perfect little capsule of this because you are literally seeing an edited, polished, perfected, highlight reel of a bright moment in somebody’s life and your feed is just filled with that. And just all the hours going into it. I saw an interview with Alex Hermosy recently, and he made a comment that I thought was really profound. said, Yeah,

the more advanced we’ve gotten in content production, the more we spend time planning and the less time shooting. He’s like, all of our time is spent in the planning. And then the shooting is just like, you know, we come in and we’re ready to go. And I thought, that’s, that’s, that’s a professional. That’s, that’s what a professional is.

AJ (12:06)
But that’s, think,

that’s the same thing in business and in sales. It’s like a great sale happens because there was immense planning behind the scenes. There was research, there was review, there was product knowledge, there was training, and then a seeming, you know, short 30 to 60 minute conversation ends well. And it’s like, wow, you’re such a great salesperson. It’s like, no, you’re such a great practicer, right? You’re such a good rehearser. You’re such a good student. You’re such a good learner. ⁓ Things don’t happen without all of that.

And so I think a lot of us struggle with this idea of I can’t do it because they’re looking at someone else who’s done all the practice and comparing them to themselves who have done none of the practice.

Rory (12:47)
Yeah, there. Shout out to our friend, Phil Jones. We’ve had him on this podcast before. He wrote a book called Exactly What to Say. And I love one of his core philosophies is the worst time to think about what you’re going to say is in the moment when you’re saying it. Right. Like, and that’s like a classic example of an amateur, like the worst moment to like think about what you’re going to do or say is like in the moment it needs to happen. You haven’t prepped. You haven’t planned like you’re

not you’re not experienced leading leading into it.

AJ (13:20)
Cause you haven’t practiced it. And this is a good reminder for all of us. No one is good. The first time you do it, no one knows what you’re doing. The first time you do it, doesn’t matter who you are. Elon Musk, Jeff Bezos, it doesn’t matter. They did not know what they were doing until they did it.

Rory (13:37)
wish we still had you remember we made one of our first products was that that DVD called speaker that showed all the clips of me speaking it was horrible. I speaking at comedy clubs and Toastmaster clubs and we had it on film. And then you could see the world championship the world championship at the end. That’s such a powerful, a powerful thing. ⁓ All right.

AJ (14:00)
So I want to add one more thing to this because I think it’s really important. What I have found internally within our company at my previous profession as a sales trainer, working with companies, working with teammates, here’s one of the biggest things that I would say about this comparison thing that just drives me nuts is that people would rather fail live in the moment with a client versus, ⁓ I guess even be open to the embarrassment of role playing with their leader.

And it’s one of the things that as a leader, I’ve always done. It’s like, no, we’re going to role play this. And they’re just like, no, I’m like, no, we’re going to roll play this right now. And it’s like, we do that with a practice interviews and presentations and sales conversations. And it’s like, why would you expect for you to be good? The first time you ever did it with a paying client. And I would just, I caution to say like, it doesn’t matter what your profession is. It’s like, it is your job to practice before you go play the game.

Rory (14:57)
Did you imagine a pilot that learned how to fly with like, with you know, the first time or a surgeon that

AJ (15:02)
We were talking about

the other day. was like, I want the gray hair man in my pilot seat. you know, it’s, don’t want the fresh new person learning all this stuff. like, no, I don’t want your new techniques. I want the old tried and true techniques. Thank you very much. But I would say the same thing. when you think about going on camera or going on a stage, like how dare you think that somebody should pay you to speak in front of their people. And that’s the first time you’ve done it. Like.

So I think there’s some humility in going like, no, like we gotta take it back to, no, I’m gonna practice like I play and we’re gonna do it right and we’re gonna do it again and again and again so that when you get on stage, people are like, whoa, even if it was the first time, because the truth is it’s never the first time. I love it. Next one.

Rory (15:47)
Okay,

I’ve got another another really big limiting belief that I think hold the people back, I want to make sure we get to it. But do you have a burning one that you want to share? Or should I just jump in and share?

AJ (15:59)
I mean,

I don’t know if I would say it’s burning, so go ahead.

Rory (16:03)
Okay, so I’m going to say this and it’s going to sound like a sales pitch, but this is not a sales pitch. Well, it’s always a sales pitch. But I genuinely believe one of the most debilitating limiting beliefs that holds people back from building their personal brand is that they are in they are afraid to invest money into their business. And I don’t just mean coaching.

AJ (16:08)
Are you sure?

Rory (16:33)
I mean, they’re afraid to invest into a nicer camera. They’re afraid to invest into a nicer logo, into a nicer website, into running ads, into hiring a team member, into paying better to get better team members. And there is this fear always with money that that entrepreneurs have, especially when they’re like really starting out, where they go, ⁓ I’m not gonna hire you for coaching. You’re just trying to take advantage of me. Or like, ⁓ I don’t really need that camera. Like it’s it’s

you know, like, it’s probably not like necessary. And to an extent, nothing is necessary. Like it’s nothing is, you know, essential going to make or break like no bit of coaching or equipment or person is going to make or break your business like you are. But every one of those decisions levels up. And when you compound the leveling up of all of those things, and I just think that people, they don’t want to invest. And when you look at the people who are winning,

they invest time and money into equipment, into education, into coaching, into staff, into personnel. Like they spend money on their business. And I think this is one of the most critical limiting beliefs that holds people back.

AJ (17:50)
Where do you think that comes from?

Rory (17:53)
scarcity around money. Yeah, it comes from comes from scarcity around money. And especially, you know, I think about me growing up somebody who didn’t come from a lot of money. When you finally have like a little bit, it’s like money is survival. And when you equate money to like survival, it’s just like you cannot reinvest because it’s like, this is my survival. And there is an evolution that happens to on the way to becoming like a wealthier person that is money is a tool.

and I use money as a tool to grow and make more money among other things. so I think…

I think we live in a world of scarcity financially, and I think there’s a lot of horrible information about money. And frankly, there are no shortage of people trying to take advantage of you and take money out of your pocket and investment schemes and crappy coaches. And so I you know, there’s a part of that that I go, yeah, there’s you, know, you get burned a few times, and you’re like, I’m never doing that again. But I think entrepreneurs actually ironically have a much

like poor people are actually the ones who are more emotionally attached to money. can say this from having been there because it’s like this is my survival. I must have this. can’t let this go. I found that wealthy people are kind of emotional emotionally detached from money. It’s like a hammer. Many they have they view it more as a tool, right? And it’s like, yeah, I’d be upset if I lost my hammer. But it’s like, it’s just a hammer, like I can go get another hammer and make it happen. So anyways, that’s I think a

AJ (19:13)
depends.

Rory (19:28)
I think that’s a big one. What do you agree?

AJ (19:30)
I just say

that there’s a couple of things that you said. It’s not that I disagree with. think there’s just some perspective shifts. Um, and I think one of them is this whole idea. Oh, I’ve been burned a few times or I’ve even heard people say, I’ll never do that again. I’ll never pay for another conference. I’ll never hire another coach because it was such a bad experience. And my response has always been, I don’t know where this came from, but it’s just like, well, didn’t you learn from that experience? Like,

Isn’t that in and of itself a great lesson of what to do, what not to do, what you like, what you don’t like, what not to do next time, who not to hire next time? Isn’t that valuable in and of itself? And I think that just comes back to the principle of there is no failing, there’s no bad decisions, there’s only lessons learned.

Rory (20:03)
lesson.

AJ (20:21)
Right. And I think if we can have that perspective shift, when we think about learning and investing into your business, it’s like, even if it fails, even if it doesn’t work, even if it backfires, I will learn something is a mentality, a perspective shift that helps. I think people try again, do it again. ⁓ and I think that’s a really important thing is, you know, yeah, like you’re going to make mistakes. You’re going to hire the wrong people. Things aren’t going to work.

Let’s just call it what it is. Like it’s gonna blow up in your face. It’s gonna backfire. Things are going to break and not work. What did you learn?

Rory (21:00)
That’s so good. mean, that also makes me think of another another key difference between wealthy people and average people financially is that wealthy people always think longer term. So

a lot of people, especially if you don’t have a lot of money, right? This was me, even as a young entrepreneur, I remember literally emptying my bank account writing a check to Darren LaCroix for a humor class that was like, it literally was the last dollars in my account. ⁓ But

you know, I think about I was like $2,000 or something for this one class. And that was that was a lot of money to me. And I go, ⁓ my gosh, I’ve made 10s of 1000s of dollars over the course of my career from what I learned in those two days. But like, when you don’t have a lot of money, you’re like, Okay, I need to put a dollar in the machine. And if I don’t get to back to today or tomorrow, I’m never doing this again. And

AJ (21:59)
What happens more frequently even is if I don’t get it back in the short amount of time frame, I’m just going to quit altogether. Yeah. I’m just going to stop altogether. And it’s like success doesn’t happen overnight and growth and change definitely doesn’t happen overnight or in a week or in a month or in a year sometimes. And it’s like, you got to have that long-term perspective. I’d say one of the things that you said, I think is important to kind of highlight it’s now we live in an age and an era where learning and improving, there’s just no excuses. Anything you want to learn is out.

fingertips literally with a clickety clack of your type board there it goes between all of the new you know LLMs and blogs and podcasts it’s like no excuses yeah that doesn’t mean it’s all credible doesn’t mean it’s all but that whole idea that ⁓ I’m just I’m not gonna invest I’m not gonna try I’m not gonna learn it’s like that’s that we’re just beyond that there’s just there’s no excuse for that in today’s in today’s world

Rory (22:58)
And

I love what you’re saying there about like, we have spent so much money on kind of crappy or mediocre coaching or crappier, mediocre, like services or crappier, mediocre, like, you know, courses or knowledge or information or tools that we bought. But it’s like, it’s it’s valuable, even if it doesn’t work, because it’s like learning. I think it was Thomas Edison who said something like, you know, I learned it’s valuable negative information. It’s like,

You have to learn a thousand things that don’t work to find the one thing that does work.

AJ (23:32)
yet.

would say it’s like I’ve read plenty of books that I don’t recommend plenty of conferences that I wouldn’t go to again. Like there’s a lot of that and I can honestly say I learned something from every single book, from every single coach, from every single conference. It may not have been a multitude of things, but at least one thing. And my approach has always been whatever I’m going to do, what’s the one thing? I don’t need 10 things. I’m not going to do 10 things. I need one thing. What’s the one thing? And I’ve been to many events where it’s like I left halfway through

a third of the way through, not because it was bad, but it was like, I got what I needed. I’m good. Right? And if we all go through with this approach of just like, what’s the one thing? What’s the one thing I need? What’s the one thing that’s a takeaway for me? And often if you just open up your mindset and just go, I don’t need a lot of things. I don’t need all the things. I need one thing that I can go and actually change or start doing or stop doing or see differently. Even, you know, a lot of times I just leave with a perspective shift.

And that is worth it to me. And so I think again, all of those are just choices of going, how do I spend my time? How do I spend my money in order to get the results that I’m looking for? And then nothing is a bad investment. Everything is a good investment because you got something.

Rory (24:49)
Absolutely. So, all ⁓ right. I want to ask you a question, which is if somebody is watching right now and they’re struggling with these three limiting beliefs that we have, we have talked about. So they basically, you know, have like the novelty addiction of like the new thing. They have imposter syndrome or they have a scarcity around money. What do think they could do in the next seven days to do a mindset reset?

you will. Like, ⁓ we’ve been there and all three of these at many times in many places. What, what would you tell to somebody if they’re if they’re struggling with any of these things, you go the next seven days, here’s what you should focus on to shake free.

AJ (25:35)
Yeah, I would say the first thing is to go back through these things, which could be the novelty addiction or what I would call this shiny object syndrome. Could be the imposter syndrome or IE comparison, or it’s the scarcity of money, which I think you can also liken it to what am I to? I think it’s a lot of that comes to I’m choosing to see what I don’t have versus what I can glean from this. And I think all of those are to say, which one do you suffer from? Maybe they’re all of them, but let’s pick one.

Right? think the first thing you got to do in the next seven days is go, where is this showing up in my life? And you have to pinpoint the catalyst of it. And I would just encourage you to pinpoint which one of those three things is really nagging at your soul, because there’s typically one of them. And then I would say, I, this is really just have some time of reflection, grab a journal, get outside and give yourself 30 minutes to go. Where is that coming from?

What was the event that sparked this in my life? Because I believe that when you can pinpoint where it started or what triggered it, now you can take control over it. Right? And I think the reason that most of us keep living in this hamster wheel of the same thing, you know, happening again and again, ruminating in our lives is because we, we don’t have control over where it started so we can rewrite the narrative.

And so if you’re really struggling from, you know, imposter syndrome or comparison, then you got to sit down and go, when did that start? Where was it? What was it? What happened that started that? Because there was always an event. There was also, there was always a moment where there was a trigger that then began this pattern in your life. And I think it doesn’t take us long. It’s just, you just got to have the time and give yourself the mental space and permission to go there.

Because once you do, and once you can identify it, you can actually start to make tangible changes. You can say like, were you compared to someone else in the classroom? Or you compared to a sibling, right? Where you compared to other people on your team that were perhaps better at you at that season in your life at a sport or, you know, school or whatever it was. And I think a lot of it is just going back to where did that start so that you know, that’s not true in your life today.

It was an event that happened and it was a lie. Cause this whole episode is about lies. These are lies. These are not truths. Those lies started when you started to believe something that wasn’t true about yourself and you got to go back and go, when did that lie start? And how can I start to speak truth over myself to combat that lie? Because it’s not who you are today. We’re believing things today that started from one thing that happened years ago or decades ago, and we haven’t been able to let them go. That’s what I would do in the next seven days.

to truly, really start to eradicate these lies from your life.

Rory (28:26)
I love that. I love that. All right. So we need to go to the community question. want to, I want to wrap up. want to give you three, I want to give you three specific affirmations or mantras or beliefs that you could use to rewrite. If you’re struggling with these, these are things that have helped me. So number one, if you are struggling with this issue of like shiny object syndrome, the mantra, I always remind myself it’s in our book. If you have diluted focus, you get diluted results. Number two, if you’re struggling with

I would encourage you, this is a quote that I think about often, it’s from Mark Twain. said, each man is my superior in some way. And therefore, I am superior to each man in some way, right? So we all have value to learn and gain from each other. Number three, if you’re struggling with scarcity around money, I would encourage you to say, money is a tool that I invest and I use it to bring me more money.

So those are three little belief patterns you could adopt or try on and see if that helps you.

AJ (29:30)
Love it.

All right. So in this community section, right, this is one of the favorite times of this episode because we get to answer a question from our brand builders group community and everyone gets to submit a question and then they vote up on which one we’re going to talk about on the show today. So let me tell you, I know this is from Derek. He says, I’m a financial advisor with real expertise. I know my stuff, but I freeze every single time I try to film content. You’re not alone, Derek.

It’s not that I don’t know what to say. I just feel, let’s highlight that word, all caps, feel like I’m going to say something wrong or look stupid on camera. My coach keeps telling me it’s a mindset issue, but that advice hasn’t helped. Is there an actual tactical step-by-step way to train your brain to self-sabotaging when the camera is on?

Rory (30:26)
gosh, this is such a…

AJ (30:28)
Such

a question and applicable to 99 % of us. I have a few, but do you want to start?

Rory (30:32)
Yes, sure.

So

To me, like everything that we teach, there is a mental part of this and then there’s a technical part of this. Since he’s saying that ⁓ he’s been attacking the mental part, I’m gonna talk about a couple technical things. Okay, so number one, most technical tip I have if you feel nervous on camera is hit record on the camera long before you actually go to talk to it. So let it just be recording and just sit in the room

⁓ and get used to like, the camera’s on and it’s like, you just, because if you have to like hit record and start talking, there’s like this pressure of this moment being on. But if you just let the camera roll and just like, the camera’s just rolling all the time, you feel less of like, okay, time to like turn on and like go into presenter mode. And you get comfortable with the idea of just, ⁓ I’m being recorded, it’s not a big deal, we can edit it after. And you’re more likely to just talk to the camera.

that you would in your normal voice and not go into like presenter mode or influencer mode. Because I think that’s the big tip here is don’t think about looking at a camera and like, don’t think about I’m talking to thousands of people, pretend the camera is like a face and talk to the camera as if it’s like a person in your normal voice. So.

AJ (31:55)
Yeah, I think that’s good. tips. Mine are very similar to that. So I’ll just kind of tag on to that ⁓ is if you have a hard time talking to the camera, it’s because you’re really talking to yourself and that’s weird and it’s awkward. So don’t talk to yourself. Here’s two things that you can do. One, literally print out a picture of your avatar or your favorite client or your spouse or your best friend or whoever, whoever you want and tape it above the camera.

And so you’re not talking to the camera, a lens, you’re talking to a person. So what we tell people to do is like literally print out, like who’s your ideal client, right? Who’s the person that you’re making this content for or what do you imagine they would look like or, you know, just have a friendly face or whatever it is, but talk to the picture. Don’t talk to the camera, talk to the picture.

And it really helps us go, okay, this is actually for a person. And it becomes less about what you’re saying to the camera and more about serving the person. The other thing you can do is use a teleprompter. Right? It’s like, if you know your stuff and you know what to say, and you just freeze when the camera goes on and your mind goes blank, that happens to a lot of us. That’s just like our nerves are kicked in. So give yourself a little bit of a study guide. So use a teleprompter. Like we have plenty of people who use note cards on stages.

Right? Like that’s a normal thing. Don’t feel like you can’t use that here. So use a teleprompter or have a postcard, like a giant poster board in the back. Like those things help. And then one other quick tool or tactic I would say that would be really helpful is if you really freeze with that, then just have someone interview you so you can have a real conversation, a real dialogue. And then you just need a good editor.

right? So that you can cut things as they need. But it’s like, have someone actually stand behind the camera and ask you the questions and then you’re talking to them. So if the picture thing doesn’t work, the teleprompter doesn’t work, turning the camera on early doesn’t work, then you just need a real life human that you can have a real life conversation with because that, that is what makes great content. That’s what the conversational tone of even, you know, episodes like this happen because you’re just talking to a real human. And so get you someone to stand behind the camera and just ask you the questions.

Rory (34:01)
Love that. I can’t resist the opportunity to do a shout out for Nashville Creative Spaces right now. ⁓ So we own a building in Nashville called Nashville Creative Spaces and we have a teleprompter in that space and a live human. And one of the reasons I’m bringing it up is because people always tell us, I booked the studio so I didn’t have to worry about the right mic and the right camera and the right lighting. But what I got most was your team coaching me through the fear of what to say.

AJ (34:13)
and a live human.

Rory (34:30)
or how to say it and also just having the teleprompter right there. We solve all that problem for you. So ⁓ you can check out Nashville Creative Spaces. And if you are a personal brand who goes, you know what, I am struggling with some of these limiting beliefs that we’ve talked about on this episode and I do need the combination, the perfect blend of ⁓ mental and tactical and I want the accountability of being in a community or even having a one-on-one coach.

Go to freebrandcall.com forward slash podcast. You can request a call and talk with someone from our team to see if you might fit to be a part of our member, mission, our community of mission-driven messengers. And we’d love to get a chance to meet you. So for myself and AJ, this is a wealthy and well-known podcast. Share this episode with someone who you think needs it and don’t let those believing beliefs hold you back. We’ll catch you next time.

AJ (35:22)
you being a dabbler right now?

Rory (35:24)
be a dabbler. Subscribe.

WWK Ep 013: Reclaiming Your Health with NYT Bestselling Author Ben Azadi 

Rory & AJ Vaden (00:00)
what are we not asking? What do we not know? Or what are we being misinformed of that you think is the most universal, most general that people need to be aware of?

Ben Azadi (00:10)
is a great question because we’re dealing, all of us are dealing with this. The first thing to consider is that doctors are not trained on this philosophy of the body’s built to heal itself. So I don’t blame doctors. I blame the system. And I used to say for so many years, AJ, the system is broken. The system is broken. I no longer feel that way. It’s running and designed the exact way that it was set up. It’s a cash cow. It’s a brilliant subscription model. What we should be asking is why do I have these symptoms? Not how do I

mask these symptoms or medicate the symptoms or reduce these symptoms, but why?

the symptom is not the problem. The symptom is the gift. The symptom is the body’s check engine light. It’s the way the body communicates to you. If you got in your vehicle.

and you’re on a road trip and your check engine light turned on, thank God there’s a system in place to show you something underneath the hood is going on. Don’t just mask, cover up that light, no, pull it over, take it to a mechanic, find out what’s happening. So the question we should be asking the doctor is why? Why do I have the

Rory & AJ Vaden (01:12)
Welcome to the wealthy and well-known podcast. Y’all today’s guest is someone who is helping millions of people reclaim their health, their energy and mental clarity, starting from the inside out. Ben Azadi is a leading voice in metabolic health, a bestselling author, four time bestselling author and a New York Times bestselling author, by the way. He’s also the founder of Keto Camp. His work bridges science, mindset, faith and practical action in a way that empowers people to take ownership of their bodies.

and their lives. So if you are listening to this today and you care about longevity, discipline, and becoming the best version of yourself specifically in this new year, then this is a conversation for you. Don’t miss it. This is a time to spend on getting yourself to the healthiest state humanly possible. So let’s dive in.

Rory & AJ Vaden (02:04)
Hey y’all, we are so excited for this conversation. And I say we, I mean me. This is like one of those awesome episodes where I’m like, I’ve been eagerly anticipating this conversation because I love it when I am personally invested in a topic and I’m like, I cannot wait to see what he says about this and this and this. And you guys heard this awesome introduction of my newer friend, Vinazati. But we’re gonna be talking today about health breakthroughs.

And I think Ben is one of those people who not only has the true researched and academic approach, but also the real life personal experience of misinformation, which I think is all too common for all of us. And I think the reason I’m so excited for this conversation, Ben, is because that was me too, right? And I think that’s a lot of us. So here’s how I would love to start is just one.

Ben Azadi (02:50)
Mm.

Rory & AJ Vaden (02:56)
Can you give our audience just a little bit of background on who you are and just for everyone who’s listening, if you didn’t catch it, he’s a world renowned health expert, a four times bestselling author and host of the Keto Camp podcast, right? So there’s a lot of stuff going on, but outside of that, like what should our audience know about you as we kick off this conversation today?

Ben Azadi (03:15)
Yeah, I’m excited to be here AJ. Thank you for the invitation. you know, like you said, I’m somebody who also struggled with my health, my energy, my metabolism for a very long time, 20 plus years. And I want it to feel better. I wanted to have more energy. I didn’t want to have to rely on medication or a broken medical system. And I felt like, you know, when I, when I was in my early twenties, I felt like I was being gas lit by my doctor because I had all these issues going on 23 years old. I was very young, but I had brain fog. had, I was

I

depressed, was suicidal, was obese, I was dealing with a ton of inflammation, digestive issues. I mean, I could go on and on about the symptoms I was dealing with. I would make my appointment with my doctor like so many of us do, and I’d list the symptoms, and not once did my doctor ask me the question, what are you eating? Let’s discuss your lifestyle, how’s your sleep? It was more about, what can I prescribe for this young man? And there were some prescriptions that were recommended by my doctor, but I felt like I was too young to get on that.

and I had to figure things out on my own. And I really took a deep dive into health and metabolism. I got really excited because I started replying what I was learning and I completely transformed my health. This was 18 years ago. I lost 80 pounds of extra inflammatory fat that was hanging around my body.

I went from being physically obese and mentally obese to being physically fit and what I call a mental six pack. And I was able to transform my health. And the cool thing about the way that I did it is that number one, I’m not special. Anybody could do it too. I don’t care how you want your ages. Number two, that was 18 years ago. I kept the weight off. I feel like I’m getting healthier year after year. I’m 41 now and I honestly feel the healthiest I’ve ever felt before. And one thing that I know to be true is that God built the body

to be self-healing. There’s not a doctor, a supplement, a pill, a medication, a shot that could replace the inner physician that’s already within our 70 trojan cells. As long as we remove the interference. So I had a lot of things that were interfering with this amazing body and we’re going to discuss that today. What are the things that are interfering with your body? You remove that interference, the body will heal itself. So now, know, fast forward, I’m a New York Times bestselling author, just like you. I speak on

stages, I do keynote lectures, I speak to doctors and medical groups. I’m not a doctor myself and I’m not saying all this to impress anybody but I’m saying it to impress upon them. I’ve a lot of research, I’ve worked with a lot of people and I’ve kind of extracted what works for most people and what doesn’t work and today we’re going to decipher exactly what that is.

Rory & AJ Vaden (05:54)
You know, I love what you said is like, there’s an inner physician in all of us. And one of my, as many of you who are listening know, I live here in Nashville, Tennessee. And one of my favorite food markets has this sign. It’s called urban market. If you’ve lived here in Nashville, they have this amazing sign behind the register that says, let thy food be thy medicine and thy medicine be thy food. And I think that,

Ben Azadi (06:07)
I love that place.

Rory & AJ Vaden (06:18)
Unfortunately, at least here in America, we live in a society, at least for now, where it has been prescriptions, not inner healing. It has not been, let’s figure out what the interference is, remove it so that we can have healthy, happy lifestyles. It’s like, how many more chemicals can we find and prescribe? Which I’m curious to hear is like, how much of that is the interference? So I don’t know, we’ll have to find out. But okay, so here’s our first question.

This has been going on for 18 years, right? And I would also just second, like I turned 42 this year and this is the healthiest, fittest, happiest I’ve been my whole adult life. So for all of you who are not in your forties yet, good things are coming. The forties have proven to be a good decade thus far. But I think, I think this is the interesting thing. It’s like you were going to your doctor. I was going to a doctor for years and wasn’t getting the right information.

and there was no information in my case. It wasn’t even misinformation. There was none. wasn’t even let’s have the conversation. So I would be curious for everyone who’s listening to hear like, what are we not asking? What do we not know? Or what are we being misinformed of that you think is the most universal, most general that people need to be aware of?

Ben Azadi (07:34)
The first thing is a great question because we’re dealing, all of us are dealing with this. The first thing to consider is that doctors are not trained on this philosophy of the body’s built to heal itself. So I don’t blame doctors. I blame the system. And I used to say for so many years, AJ, the system is broken. The system is broken. I no longer feel that way. It’s running and designed the exact way that it was set up. It’s a cash cow. It’s a brilliant subscription model. What we should be asking is why do I have these symptoms? Not how do I

mask these symptoms or medicate the symptoms or reduce these symptoms, but why? What’s the cause of these symptoms? Because here’s an example. Most Americans, they buy their junk food at their convenience store. It’s a convenience store because it’s very cheap and easy and convenient, but these foods, they’re like food-like substances, they are loaded with artificial ingredients, preservatives, chemicals, rancid fats, and we eat these foods because they’re cheap and convenient, and then we get a symptom. That could be,

Maybe you have brain fog or maybe you’re starting to gain some belly fat or maybe your thyroid is slowing down. So your energy production is lower. So you just you feel off. And we’ve been trained to believe that those symptoms are the problem. I want a medication to lower my blood pressure. I need a medication to lower my blood sugar. I want to go on a Zephyg to loosen what the symptom is not the problem. The symptom is the gift. The symptom is the body’s check engine light. It’s the way the body communicates to you. If you got in your vehicle.

and you’re on a road trip and your check engine light turned on, thank God there’s a system in place to show you something underneath the hood is going on. Don’t just mask, cover up that light, no, pull it over, take it to a mechanic, find out what’s happening. So the question we should be asking the doctor is why? Why do I have the symptom? That gets you down the path of, okay, you’re eating these inflammatory foods, remove that interference, you start to produce more energy and burn fat and feel good. The next thing to consider is that here in the United States, we spend about four

trillion dollars on health care every single year. And if that was a GDP of a country, that would be the fourth largest GDP in the entire world. And what’s really interesting about that

amount of spend is that one out of every four dollars spent on health care is spent on diabetes, primarily type 2, which is 100 % preventable and 100 % reversible. It’s a lifestyle disease, but unfortunately, it’s been treated with medication. And it’s not just the diabetes, it’s the obesity, it’s the heart disease, it’s the thyroid condition. So it’s not about the symptom. The symptom is a blessing. It’s a gift. It’s about the cause. We want to figure out what’s going on.

at a cellular level inside the body.

Rory & AJ Vaden (10:11)
a ha moment of, know, symptoms aren’t the problem, they’re the signal, right? It’s like, hey, this is your alert system. Are you paying attention? And are you asking what’s causing the symptom versus just give me a medication to solve the symptom? It’s like, now we kind of have to go underneath the symptom to figure out what’s the cause of it. What do you think for you, at least in your experience, what did you learn from the beginning?

Or actually, let ask you an even earlier question, because I think a lot of people who are listening are like, I can relate to this. Where do I start? So take it back 18 years. Where did you start?

Ben Azadi (10:48)
It starts with the foundations of getting healthy, right? It doesn’t have to require a ton of money, although I’m a big fan of different biohacks and devices and all that, but it doesn’t, you don’t start there. The supplements I’m a big fan of too, but they supplement the lifestyle. So the foundations need to be laid first. need a strong foundation, right? So that’s going to be your movement, right? Moving your body. That’s where I started to answer your question. I started by moving my body, walking outside, riding my bicycle, playing basketball, doing things that I enjoy doing that it required me to move my body. Then I started

to just focus on eating whole foods. And I know we hear that all the time, eat whole foods, eat real food. But I think a lot of people, and Jay, don’t really understand what that means. I will explain that because a whole food is simply a single ingredient food. When we go to the supermarket, urban market is, I love that place, but any supermarket, is it urban or urban?

Rory & AJ Vaden (11:40)
Urban.

Ben Azadi (11:41)
When we go to any supermarket and let’s say we are on the perimeters where they have like the produce and the beef, when we look at the ingredients list of an avocado, for example, there’s not a list of ingredients. It’s what you see. You get the avocado, a potato, it’s just the potato, eggs, just the egg, the beef, the beef. But when you go in the middle aisles and you now get a potato chip instead of the potato, it’s now a processed version of the whole food.

Rory & AJ Vaden (11:59)
Mm-hmm.

Ben Azadi (12:04)
there’s 20, 30 ingredients. So a simple start is eat only single ingredient foods, move your body. That’s where I started. And then when you go from there, you start to make some progress, you get momentum. Then you start stacking things and stacking different behaviors and habits, and then you gain some serious momentum.

Rory & AJ Vaden (12:22)
Okay, I love these are two simple steps. Move, like move, right? It’s going to walk, go biking, play pickleball, but move. ⁓ Can we just pause on that one just for a second? What do you find in your 18 years of research and working with people? Like, why don’t they do that? Like it’s a simple step, that didn’t mean it was easy. Why don’t they?

Ben Azadi (12:25)
Thank you.

Right, yes.

because we want the sexy thing. We want the, you know, the ozendic, the fad diet. We want the whatever’s trending in the health world these days, apple cider vinegar, whatever it is. We want the sexy thing, but you know, sleep and movement and eating real food. It’s like, we’ve heard that before and it sounds so simple. So we don’t necessarily do it because it just sounds too easy, but sometimes, a lot of the times, little by little, little becomes a lot.

Right. It’s about getting momentum and a lot of people, especially this, you know, this time of year, we start to do make different changes and we start to throw everything into the mix all at once. Gym membership, keto diet, intermittent fasting, these supplements, and we just throw too much and we can’t, we make some progress and then all of sudden it’s just too much for the body to handle. a lot of people like the sexy stuff. They want to hear about, you know, the infrared sauna and the cold plunge. And again, I’m not against any of that. I have an infrared sauna and a cold plunge.

but those are things you add later on. The foundations are set in stone. Like this is the way we’ve been healthy for a very long time. This is way our ancestors were healthy. Once we look back at our ancestors and see what they did for the most part, we could follow suit and then get healthy and then stack those other sexy items that everybody’s looking for.

Rory & AJ Vaden (14:04)
I love that. What would you recommend? Is there a goal of for how long when you think about movement? Is it 10 minutes, 30 minutes? Is it low impact, high impact? Does it matter?

Ben Azadi (14:16)
I would start with getting daily steps each day. would aim wherever you’re at with your current level of activity. If you’re getting 5,000 steps a day, let’s bring it to 7,000. If you’re at 7,000, let’s bring it to 9,000. But once you get to around 10,000 steps a day, that’s going to be optimal. And you’re not going to get those 10,000 steps in one walk. I wouldn’t recommend that. It’s sprinkled throughout the day. These are actually called exercise snacks. And one of the best things you can do for your energy levels, digestion, for fat loss, is to go for a

15 minute walk after your largest meal of the day, which is typically dinner for most people. When you do that, it improves digestion. There’s less of this blood sugar spike from that meal. it blunts that blood sugar spike so you don’t get a crash in energy after and you get back into a fat burning state much faster. So I recommend having something that tracks your steps. I use an aura ring, but there’s so many different things out there and aim to get 10,000 steps a day. When you do that, you strengthen your heart.

you strengthen your arteries, you are able to burn fats. Walking is so underrated and if you could time it with that 15 minute walk after your biggest meal of day and do that consistently, just that alone without any other changes, you will start to see some progress.

Rory & AJ Vaden (15:31)
and I’ll tell y’all for who are listening, know if you follow me on social, you see me, but it’s like, I have an actual old school step counter, like one that clips onto your shoe. And it’s like, one of the things I learned for those of you who listening, if you relate to this, I had to see it. I was like, I actually have to see, because if I saw that I was like 8,200 steps, I’m like, oh, I’m almost there. But if I didn’t see it, I would get in bed at night and I’m like, dang it, I missed it. Versus having it on my shoe, like a weirdo, people are always like,

Is that a, you’re not, you’re not out of prison, are you? No, not a tracking device. It’s not. But it’s like, you know, I think about like, know yourself of like, are you a visual person? Like, is that going to help you? And I just, it did for me when I was trying to make some of these changes. But also I love that simple tip of just go for 15 minute walk after your biggest meal or make it a habit of like, go on a walk after every meal.

Ben Azadi (16:05)
Thank

Rory & AJ Vaden (16:28)
You know, one of things I was thinking of like, just like park the farthest way away from the restaurant, right? It’s like, don’t try to get the VIP space up front. It’s like park as far away as you can, where it’s like, it forces you to get in some of those steps if you’re gonna go out to eat. And it’s like, how can you challenge yourselves in those little ways that will compound, as you said, into the big things.

Ben Azadi (16:51)
That’s exactly it. Yeah. I love that because number one, with looking at your steps, you’re gamifying it in a way, right? You’re able to see and hit those goals and see it right in front of you and see how many steps you have, how many steps you need, and you can finish those steps because you see it right there in front of you. And that tip about parking far away and walking is a great tip. We tend to drive around as close as possible to see that open spot as close as possible to the door. No need to do that. Just park wherever you see the first spot, walk.

When you see the choice between elevator or stairs, take the stairs. These are different things that add up over time. They really do.

Rory & AJ Vaden (17:26)
Totally. And it’s like, just, again, do all the little things. It’s like, you’re working out and you don’t even realize it for the person who’s like, I can’t make it to the gym. That doesn’t allow in my lifestyle or my, it’s like, well, these are all things that help us get there. And I love that. And I love the two of just like the simple definition of eat whole foods, right? These are just the single ingredient foods. So I have a personal question for you, right? So.

I agree with this. Are there any non-single ingredient foods or any brands that you would say, have found that if you’re going to have to have, you know, a middle of the grocery store, I’ll snack that if you’re going to buy something, this is what you should do, right? These are the brands or these are the foods. Are there any that are on your like approved checklist?

Ben Azadi (18:10)
Yeah, there is. is absolutely. So there’s healthier versions of these processed foods and now they’re not single ingredient whole foods. So they’re not as good as that, but they’re, you know, if you want those as an option, especially if you have kids, it’s a good option for them as well. Lesser Evil is a good brand that’s in most grocery stores. have Siete, you have Epic. These are companies that are typically found in most commercial grocery stores. There’s a good company called Thrive Market that it’s kind of like, yeah, it’s kind of like Costco meets Whole Foods.

online membership, you pay an annual fee, and then you shop online. And they have a ton of these products that are healthier versions of processed foods. You just shop online, deliver it to your door. So yeah, there’s definitely options out there. There’s healthier ways to go about it. And know, things like bone broth, like kettle and fire bone broth, you could find that at grocery stores. So absolutely any of those brands, even though they’re multiple ingredients, they’re typically cleaner on the ingredient side.

Rory & AJ Vaden (19:04)
Yeah, I love that. I love, we have most of these brands and I love that. One of the things that, I don’t even know why I put this in place. It was literally just on a whim, but we have a policy in our house and part of my kids go grocery shopping with me when I go. And so part of like this education process is they have to be able to do two things. They have to pick foods that have no more than four ingredients. So we have a four ingredient policy.

And then they have to be able to pronounce all the ingredients. And if you cannot pronounce it, we cannot buy it. It’s like those, well, I didn’t kind of like gamify shopping and I’m like, they bring it over and I’m like, how many does it have? And they’re like five. And I’m like, oh, sorry, it’s more than four. Didn’t like to cut. Right. And it’s like, but it’s like, for those of you who have kids, it’s like, these are just small, simple ways of introducing this to them too. And then I love that. It’s like, you gotta have like what brands are trustworthy.

Ben Azadi (19:36)
Awesome.

That’s fantastic.

Rory & AJ Vaden (20:01)
And there’s so many, it’s like, if you were to look at all of them, oh my gosh, you’ve been in the grocery store for 12 hours. is, perimeter shopping is the best, I agree. Yeah, these are good of like, hey, if you’re gonna buy, these are some of the brands, check the ingredients, limit the ingredients, make sure you can pronounce them.

Ben Azadi (20:05)
It’s true. Yeah.

It is. Yeah.

I love that you do that with your kids. Another brand that came to mind is Masa, Masa chips. Masa chips, fantastic. It’s cooked in beef tallow, it’s organic tortilla, so it’s a great option for healthier chips. They also have potato chips as well, corn and potato, so Masa is a good brand as well.

Rory & AJ Vaden (20:24)
Let’s

Yeah, I have, I bought those before at like airports and stuff. And I didn’t even, it didn’t even register me to just said that I was like, yeah, I could probably buy those from a house. Yeah. Yeah. I love having like a list of good brands. okay. So that kind of leads to my next question, which is it’s so hard to discern and determine who to listen to. What’s trustworthy.

Ben Azadi (20:45)
Yeah.

Rory & AJ Vaden (20:58)
what’s a good brand, even if it’s promoted as, you know, healthy or, you know, people think, well, if it’s at Whole Foods, it must be good. And it’s like, no, not necessarily. So I guess how can people cut through some of these health trends or some of the fear-based messaging or conflicting advice? Cause it’s like, you could listen to four different people and you’re going to get four entirely different messages. How did you do that? And how do you tell people to do that today?

Ben Azadi (21:27)
It’s a big problem. We’re drowning in all this information. We used to have not enough information. Now it is too much information. We’re we’re drowning in information. We’re starving for that true wisdom and truth. Your rule was great. You shared with your kids, when you’re shopping, anybody could follow that rule. Four ingredients, you gotta be able to pronounce it. That’s great. People need to, we just need to read the labels and understand how to read the labels. The front of the package or the box is gonna have brilliant

It’s going to say like gluten-free organic, it’s going to be in Whole Foods. Doesn’t necessarily mean it’s healthy. It’s important to read the ingredients label. Follow that rule. If you can’t pronounce it, probably not a good idea. If it has a ton of ingredients, probably not a good idea. But you know, part of the other part to the answer here is a lot of people are now going on chat GPT, YouTube, they’re doing Google searches, they’re listening to the podcast and there’s so many different health experts out there, TikTok experts out there.

Rory & AJ Vaden (22:21)
Mm-hmm.

Ben Azadi (22:24)
A lot of it’s conflicting. And I think about this a lot because I feel for people because it’s like, but my nutritionist or this TikTok person said, just focus on calories, just about calories in versus calories out. And then they come across me and I’m like, don’t worry about calories. It’s about hormones and inflammation. Like, who do I believe? I always say that this is my answer. I always say, find somebody that you resonate with, their personality, their story. They make sense to you.

And go all in with that. Give it 30 days at the very minimum, maybe 60 days. Go all in with what they’re teaching. And if you see progress, you see results, stick with that person. If you see no results, maybe you regress. OK, that person’s philosophy or approach doesn’t work for you. That’s what I would recommend. You might have to go through a few people to get there, but there’s a lot of quality people teaching the right information. So I would recommend you find that person, that authority that you resonate with, and then go all in.

in

with them, don’t listen to anybody else, just that one person and see what it does for you. Maybe do some lab work as well. See what it does to your lab work and then you can kind of go from there. If it works, then continue with that person. If it doesn’t, move on to the next person.

Rory & AJ Vaden (23:33)
Yeah, I love that. And you said something that caught my attention and I wrote this down. So I want to come back to it. You said some people talk about calories in calories out and come to me and it’s about hormones and you know metabolism and it’s like so much talk about hormones right now. It’s like I think I’ve like every time I look at the bestseller list there’s a new book on hormones. Okay, I don’t know if it was just me or maybe I’m in a new season of life where it’s like my reticular activator has kicked in but I don’t feel like there was

this talk about hormones 20 years ago, 15, 10, maybe even five years ago, but in the last three years or so, there’s been this explosion of conversation around hormones at a very public, universal, everyone’s talking about it. Why and what do you have to say about it?

Ben Azadi (24:24)
Yeah, I know you’re right. wasn’t as popular five, 15, 20 years ago. It’s really common now. There’s a few reasons why. Well, number one, there’s now a mainstream message on metabolic health, which is great with, you know.

Rfk jr. Make America healthy again I know when I say that it triggers some people but there’s a conversation now being had about metabolic health Which I personally love because we know what was happening before was not working So thank God we have something that’s going to change right now and with this focus on metabolic health Hormones are one of the biggest things to focus on here our hormones Dictate everything for us. They help us produce energy. They help us burn fat They help us extend our lifespan and add years to our life our hormones need to be able to do their job

Hormones are simply these these little chemical messengers and they connect to your cells your cells hear the message if there’s not too much inflammation and then it tells your cells to perform that job. The issue is that too many people are inflamed. They have high levels of inflammation. When you have high levels of inflammation it’s like if I muted my mic here

I would be screaming at you. This is the hormones being produced or even taking hormones. But if the mic is muted, I could be screaming. You won’t hear the message. You would be frustrated. I would be frustrated. Same thing with the cells. If you’re taking hormones or you’re producing hormones, but there’s inflammation, the message is not getting through. You’re not going to get well. You’re not going to feel better. You’re not going to get.

the benefit of those hormones. So we want to reduce inflammation, right? When you do that, then those hormones get in. And that’s where all these authors and books, talk about that. There’s synergy between inflammation and hormones. And I love that this is now being talked about because it’s not about calories. Being overweight,

is not your problem. When I was obese, I never had a weight problem. It is a weight symptom. When we focus on calories, we’re focusing on the symptom. We would discuss why that’s the issue. It’s not the symptom. The symptom is the gift. Being overweight is the gift. It’s showing you there’s too much inflammation. So we don’t lose weight to get healthy. We get healthy to lose weight. When you get healthy by focusing on inflammation and hormones, the weight comes off as a side effect. That’s where the focus should be. So I love that we’re seeing these books. I love that we’re seeing

hormones trending and these different authorities or authors are talking about hormones because that’s really where it’s at when you combine the focus of hormones with the focus on lowering inflammation that’s where the magic happens.

Rory & AJ Vaden (26:50)
you said so many things that just like blew my mind a little bit. So I wanna go back. okay, okay. You said obesity is not a weight problem. It’s a weight symptom. It’s a symptom, right? And so when your body gets healthy, when your hormones are back in check and you reduce inflammation, the weight comes off as a by-product. Did I hear you right?

Ben Azadi (27:02)
Yes.

That’s right,

the weight loss is a side effect of getting healthy, yes.

Rory & AJ Vaden (27:15)
Okay, so let’s talk about two things then that I think are that I just hear these two topics come up all the time in my personal life with friends and family, my business life across the board. Can you explain to everyone what is inflammation, what causes it and what can you do to reduce it?

Ben Azadi (27:31)
Yes, I love that. There’s two types of inflammation, two primary types. There’s acute inflammation and then there’s chronic inflammation. Acute inflammation is not necessarily bad. If you worked out and you have soreness from the workout, that’s acute inflammation. That’s actually a good thing. Your body is sending all the healing properties. You’ll be sore for a couple of days and you’re stronger. If you sprain your ankle, if you hurt your shoulder, this is acute inflammation. Your body is sending those signals. It’s going to be just short term. It’s not necessarily the issue.

Chronic inflammation is the issue. Chronic inflammation is when your cells, you have about 30 to 70 trillion cells in your body, when your cells are inflamed, then…

those messengers, the hormones cannot get in, not just that. Oxygen cannot get into the cells, nutrients cannot get into the cells, and then you’re going to have some symptoms. So we want to find out what’s causing the inflammation. There’s many different things that cause the inflammation. I’ll give you a few of what I believe are the top things that cause inflammation. This might surprise a lot of people, but I believe the number one of the leading causes towards inflammation is actually eating too frequently, snacking and grazing throughout the day.

We’ve been trained to believe we need to eat every two to three hours to keep the metabolism revved up, fired up. That’s actually one of the worst things you can do for your health. If you want to age faster than anybody you know, eat every two to three hours. That is because without getting too scientific, I just want to explain why I say that, there’s something that I wrote about metabolic freedom in my book called the Hayflick Limit.

The Hayflick limit states that your cells could duplicate a certain amount of times until it can no longer duplicate. Once it reaches that limit, this is called the Hayflick limit, now that cell has reached its capacity and it goes into what’s called a zombie cell. A zombie cell now produces.

more inflammation, hormones cannot use the zombie cell, it weakens your immune system, it increases your chances of cancer and different autoimmune conditions. So we want to avoid the Hayflick limit.

you will reach that hayflick limit the fastest, the quickest way to reach it is when you’re eating every two to three hours. Every time you spike glucose from the meal, then insulin is produced, the cells duplicate. And you are achieving that hayflick limit much faster than if you just had three meals a day or practiced intermittent fasting. So that I believe eating too frequently and eating too close to bed on top of that.

is one of the fastest ways to raise inflammation and reach that hay flick limit.

Rory & AJ Vaden (30:07)
Okay, well

talk about some of the worst misinformation of our generation. Keep your metabolism up. Eat every two to three hours, lots of small meals. And that is one of those things that is simply about the aesthetics. It’s like, can you keep your metabolism to look a certain way, not actually be internally healthy?

Ben Azadi (30:13)
Right.

That’s exactly it. And you know, I taught that for so many years as a personal trainer. I used to own a gym here in Miami. used to believe in that. And so I knew better. And once you know better, you do better. And here’s the thing. You don’t even want to speed up your metabolism or boost your metabolism. As a matter of fact, the metabolism doesn’t even operate by speed. It’s not fast or slow. There’s no such thing. It’s either efficient or inefficient.

When you’re eating every two to three hours and most people are eating a lot of processed carbs, you are teaching your metabolism to be inefficient by only using sugar as the only fuel source. And when I say sugar, I’m not necessarily saying eating sugar, I’m saying carbohydrates turn into sugar. Now you have a metabolism that is a sugar burner. That is an inefficient metabolism. When you start to practice fasting, maybe a low-carb keto diet.

avoid eating every two to three hours, you now switch over to fat burning. That is now a metabolism that is efficient. So we don’t want a fast metabolism. No such thing. No such thing as a slow metabolism. We want a metabolism that is flexible and efficient, which is the premise behind my book, Metabolic Freedom.

Rory & AJ Vaden (31:41)
Hmm.

Well, I love that. I mean, there’s another misnomer, speed up your metabolism. And how many people have said the words, I just have a slow metabolism.

Ben Azadi (31:49)
all the time, all the time. know what’s really interesting, AJ? When I was digging into the research on metabolism, was writing the book, I came across a study that is the most comprehensive, best study ever done on the metabolism. it totally just…

Rory & AJ Vaden (31:51)
Yeah!

Ben Azadi (32:05)
excuse that your metabolism is slow, it just made it just like it voided the entire thing because the study showed this is a 2021 study Duke University 6,000 plus people in the study and it was a worldwide study that involved multiple countries and here’s what the study did it looked at different age groups from the age to yeah a two-year-old to age 95 years old and everybody in between 6,000 people and at the end of the study it said that our metabolism

between

the ages of 20 years old and 60 years old, there are no significant changes in the metabolism at all. Okay, so if you’re 45 or 51 or 57 saying it’s because my age is slowing my metabolism, this study, which is the gold standard of measuring metabolism, showed that doesn’t happen. But it did say this. It said they noticed after age 60, there’s a 0.7 % decline

in that metabolism every year after age 60. But the reason why that happens is because of loss of muscle mass, which means if you build your lean muscle mass in your 40s, 50s, or even if you’re over 60, you could be 95 years old with the same metabolism as when you were 25 years old by preserving that lean muscle mass. So to me, that’s super exciting and very cool. it also, you know, that excuse that you have a slow metabolism because of age studies

Rory & AJ Vaden (33:12)
huh.

Ben Azadi (33:34)
Please don’t back that up.

Rory & AJ Vaden (33:35)
Yeah. And then back to it’s like, it’s not about being skinny. It’s about being healthy. It’s about being healthy and having lean muscle mass that matters. Okay. Uh, I’m going go back to inflammation just for a second. said eating too frequently, right? Every two to three hours eating too late, too close to bed. Are there any other general, like, this is going to cause inflammation?

Ben Azadi (33:39)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, the environmental toxins have to be a part of that conversation. Chapter four, no, chapter five, excuse me, of metabolic freedom gets into this. So environmental toxins, reason why I wrote a whole chapter and why I’m bringing it up now is because we live in the most toxic world than ever before.

And the argument that I get on social media when I talk about detox and toxins is, but then we have these detoxification organs in place, the liver, the kidneys, the lymphatic system. Can’t we just detox these toxins that come in? Yes, we do have them in place. God put them there and they do help, but they cannot keep up. These detox pathways cannot keep up with the amount of toxins that we’re dealing with this day, these days. So when we think about it, we are the water that comes through our tap water.

is loaded with toxins. It’s loaded with chlorine and chemicals and different traces of medications and birth control pills. So one simple thing you can do is do not drink tap water at all, ever.

Rory & AJ Vaden (34:53)
Yeah. Good.

Ben Azadi (34:54)
And when you go to a restaurant and they offer you water, it’s typically tap water. I could smell it and know that it’s tap water. I never drink it. I get bottled water and I recommend you do the same. When you’re taking a shower, use a shower filter. $30 on Amazon, you replace every three months. It blocks those toxins in the chlorine, et cetera. Do an audit on your cosmetics. Do an audit on your cleaning supplies, your detergents. Switch over to non-toxic things. As you do these simple changes, it doesn’t require a lot of money or time, but just simple changes.

is you start to reduce that toxicity load. As you reduce the toxicity load, your inflammation also drops. You have more energy, your hormones function better, you burn fat, and you feel better overall.

Rory & AJ Vaden (35:37)
Yeah, I mean, those are so good because those are things you don’t think about, right? It’s like all the household cleaners, tap water, know, shower head filters, all the medications, the birth control. And it’s like, yeah, like we did a huge, what would you say? Yeah, I guess. Yeah. Purge of like our household cleaners of like, we only use, I don’t know if you heard of green llama.

Ben Azadi (35:54)
codes.

No, I haven’t.

Rory & AJ Vaden (36:03)
They’re like, you know, glass water bottles and they come with these little tablets that you just add water to, right? And then they dissolve and it’s like, it’s like I’ve gotten away from all of that stuff. Like my husband Rory’s like, you’re this close to straight blown hippie.

Ben Azadi (36:17)
The values

you feel better doesn’t matter.

Rory & AJ Vaden (36:19)
Keep it on, I’m ready. But those make a difference. Because if you don’t, then they all just add up. And it’s not one thing, it’s all the things.

Ben Azadi (36:26)
Yeah.

That’s correct. Yeah, it’s not one thing. all things. Exactly. Just your bucket just fills up. Like you just said, like I have this bottle here. I’m using, I always use glass water bottles as much as possible. When I can control it. Sometimes not the airport, can’t find it, but when you can control it, use glass instead of plastic. A couple of things. A lot of people who cook at home instead of a plastic cutting board, which you get a ton of microplastics in your food that way, switch over to a wooden cutting board instead of a plastic Tupperware, switch over to

last couple where so it’s just these simple swaps that when you’re aware of you can make the changes that go a long way over time.

Rory & AJ Vaden (37:02)
Amen. So I think, again, it’s not like one huge change that you have to make. It’s like, are all the micro changes that compound? Okay. So we talked about some inflammation, so that was great and super helpful. What are ways we can reduce it? Like, you know, it’s removing all of this stuff. So we talked about that, right? So don’t do some of the, is there anything else that you have seen that really helps with inflammation reduction outside of like, Hey,

Use glass when you can and get a filter on your shower heads and don’t drink from plastic and don’t drink tap water. But are there any other like, hey guys, if you know you’re suffering from inflammation, do one, two, three.

Ben Azadi (37:38)
Yeah.

Yeah, I would say the first thing would be find some schedule of intermittent fasting and start to do some intermittent fasting. know, fasting is the probably the best way to harness this innate intelligence within your body. There’s not a biohack that’s out there that replaces the healing capabilities of fasting. You know, when you’re in a fasted state, your body goes through deep, deep healing. That is because when you’re not fast,

And eating every two to three hours never skipping meals when you’re eating and constantly digesting food it takes a lot of energy Bandwidth blood flow to digest food. That’s why when you ate a huge meal Christmas Thanksgiving whenever it was Your first thought wasn’t okay. I’m ready to record a podcast or get some work done I’m ready to speak on stage. Now your first thought was like, where’s the couch put on the game? Let’s try you turn to a cash potato because all the energy required to digest food Okay, there’s something that happens during a fast around the

Rory & AJ Vaden (38:30)
Yeah.

Ben Azadi (38:37)
14-hour

mark of a fast.

That’s not a long time. 14 hours into a fast. At the 14 hour mark, there’s actually two amazing things that happen. Number one, a process called energy diversion is turned on. Okay, what does that mean? I just shared that it takes a lot of energy to digest food. At the 14 hour mark, meaning 14 hours after your last bite of food, you’ve now completed digestion. So you now divert the energy that was being used for digestion and that energy is now being diverted

to the brain, to your kidneys, to your liver for healing. Okay, this is energy diversion. The second thing that happens at that 14-hour mark is that you start to lower the hormone insulin.

What’s really interesting AJ is that we have over 600 hormones inside of the body. So a lot, but only one hormone signals fat storage and that hormone is called insulin. And anybody who’s overweight right now, it’s because they have high levels of insulin. So what I see a lot of people do when they try to lose weight, they go on chat GPT or YouTube or Google university and they type the words, how do I lose weight? What’s the best diet for weight loss? Wrong question.

The question should be, what’s the best way to lower insulin? Fasting is the best way to lower insulin. Every hour after that 14 hour mark, you start to lower insulin more more and more. once you get into more different types of fasting, like 16 hours and 18 hours, you get other benefits that occur. But I think a 14 hour fast, most people can do, let me lay this out for you real quick. That means if you’re done eating your dinner at,

6 p.m. Last bite of food, 6 p.m. You go to bed that night, right? So you use your sleeping window as a fasting window. Then you wait until 8 a.m. the next morning to break that fast. That’s a 14-hour fast, right? It’s totally doable for a lot of people, right? And just by doing that one thing, you will lower inflammation. You’ll have more energy.

you’ll have less brain fog, more mental bandwidth, and you’ll start to burn fat. Now, if you could take that 14 hours and increase that to 18 hours per day with a six hour eating window and do that consistently, you’re gonna even increase those benefits and lower inflammation even more.

Rory & AJ Vaden (41:02)
Y’all like, I have to admit because you know, in my earlier years, it’s like, like we would still make fun of people who would eat early. And now that we are more educated, we’re like five PMers. And it’s like, we’re, it’s us and all the 95 year old people in the restaurant. But it’s like, it’s because of that right there. It’s like, what we have noticed, maybe it’s an age thing, maybe it’s a knowledge thing. Maybe it’s God’s wisdom showing up in our lives as we open our eyes to it, but it’s like,

Ben Azadi (41:15)
Thank

Rory & AJ Vaden (41:30)
I used to laugh so hard about early bird special, but it’s like, I’m like, there’s something to this. It’s like the longer you wait between eating and going to bed and resting, your body has more time to regenerate and renew itself. And when you’re eating at 9 PM or 8 PM even, and then you’re eating again at 6 AM and 7 AM, like your body gets an arrest.

Ben Azadi (41:52)
Right. Yeah, you know.

Rory & AJ Vaden (41:54)
Where were these messages like 20 years ago? And I’m so glad we have them now, but it’s like, yeah, it’s like, here’s the best part. No one wants reservations at 5.30. You can all take what want.

Ben Azadi (41:56)
Yeah.

That’s

The more popular restaurants, you’ll get a table because it’s only you and those 80, 90 year olds like you said, right? I’m, I’m, I’m.

Rory & AJ Vaden (42:14)
Yeah, I’m here.

I’m all about it. I can’t. I’ll get into all the hot restaurants at five p.m. But yeah, like those those are little things that really do matter. And I love that. And I love just like the fact the facts here around intermittent fasting. We practice that in our household. And I love that. I didn’t realize that it was like that 14th hour. Right. And that’s really fascinating of like it’s not just intermittent fasting. It’s like, no, like, can you make it 14 hours and then stop?

Ben Azadi (42:33)
Yeah.

Rory & AJ Vaden (42:41)
So even having that demarcation for all of us who practice that or who are thinking about it, it’s like there’s an hour. Now, one of the things, because you’ve mentioned it a couple of times casually, what do you think are also the healing elements about the spiritual components with fasting?

Ben Azadi (42:58)
Well, know fasting is in every religion. Religions don’t agree to do a lot of different religions, but they all agree on fasting. Every religion practices some form of fasting. Once you start going to deeper levels of fasting, and what I mean by that long fast, like I’ve done five day water fast, three day water fast, I do 24 hour fast almost every week. Once you go three days and beyond, there’s a connection to God that

It’s hard to put into words. have to just do it to kind of experience it. part of there’s a science behind this where your brain produces something called brain derived neurotropic factor. It’s like miracle growth of the brain. So you’re more creative. You’re more alert. This is great for like book writing, deep, deep work. You’re just so focused because you just remove all that interference. And this kind of happens around that 72 hour mark of a fast three days. But the reason why I believe every religion practices it in the Bible, of course, mentioned

many times is because they didn’t know about BDNF back then but they knew you remove all the interference and then you you connect to your source you connect to your creator you connect to God.

And I experienced that when I do these long fasts. when you, if anybody who watches this or listens to this does a long fast like that, you will notice that same thing. It’s such an incredible experience. And that’s the reason why I believe every religion teaches it because you just, it’s one of the best ways to remove that interference completely and just tap into this incredible source, God, to help you just be present and alert. And I’m telling you, like for book writing, it’s, it’s phenomenal thing for, any author out there.

Rory & AJ Vaden (44:34)
I love that. And I think that’s, I think it’s a good reminder to all of us who practice fasting or who share the Christian faith. It’s like, we’re called to it. Like we’re called to fast. And I think it’s a really important part of like, there’s this physical healing, but then there’s spiritual healing and connection. And those are interconnected, right?

So I love that and I think that’s really great. Okay, I know that we’re coming up on time and I promised we would be short on this, but okay, at last, two couple of quick, like hot topic questions and then we’ll kind of cut this. I could probably talk for three more hours on this because I’m so personally interested. And if you guys who are listening are thinking, yeah, me too, there’s a couple of different things that I just wanna encourage one of them.

is that Ben has mentioned several times his book, Metabolic Freedom, but that’s not his only book. So I would just encourage everyone, go to his website, benazati.com. We’ll put it in the show notes so that you don’t misspell it. But I would just encourage you to go there, check out his book, Metabolic Freedom, check out all of his other books. Also go to his podcast, Keto Camp. Ben, is there a favorite place for people to go if they want to follow you on social media?

Ben Azadi (45:44)
Yeah, thank you for that. My website’s great, great resource, but in terms of my favorite place on social media, we put out a new podcast on YouTube every day, every single day. Weekends included, holidays included, every day. So I would say if you want a brand new episode on our YouTube channel, that’s where you go. Just type in my name, Ben Azzotti on YouTube, you’ll it pop right up.

Rory & AJ Vaden (46:06)
And then we’ll put all of these in the show notes. also has this amazing course that you guys can purchase, which is Metabolic Freedom. We’ll put that in there as well. There’s a lot of things going on. you’re going, yeah, but I need more. Then he’s got the resources. He’s got the book. He’s got the podcast. He’s got the course. So we’ll put all of that in there, but the central place is just go to his website. Last couple of quick questions. To you, what does metabolic freedom mean beyond just physical health?

Ben Azadi (46:31)
Well, it’s the way God built the body. it’s the metabolic freedom is functioning the way God built the human body. And it’s beyond physical health beyond beyond way beyond that. It’s actually so it’s more important to have a mental six pack than a physical six pack. When you are mentally and metabolically healthy, you are living on purpose with your purpose. You are thriving. You are your truest personality. You are functioning and operating the way God designed you.

That is just such an incredible feeling and a lot of people don’t function that way. A lot of people are just surviving. They’re like Earl Nightingale used to say, most people tiptoe their way through life hoping to make it safely to death. I don’t want that life. I know you don’t want it AJ and I don’t want it for anybody watching or listening. So when you get healthy inside out, and I really believe it starts with your thoughts and your mental health before even the physical changes. When you get healthy, you’re just operating the way God designed.

unique to you, unique to your goals and your purpose, which is such a beautiful thing. I have found that for myself and I want that for every single person on the planet because that’s the way we were designed to thrive. And that’s what metabolic freedom and mental freedom means to me.

Rory & AJ Vaden (47:40)
I love that. It’s so good. And it’s so true. Okay, two last questions. You wrote this book, but you didn’t have to. You had all this knowledge, but you didn’t have to put it in a book. Why did you decide to not only write this book, you have four books, but why books? Like what was it that made you go, I feel called to do that?

Ben Azadi (48:01)
Yeah, as you know, as an author, and you teach a lot of people to be successful authors.

There’s something to having a book. There’s such a huge authority piece to having a book. You can hand people a business card or tell them your website or your socials and that’s great. But when you have a book that you could hand them or reference, there’s authority there. And I wanted to create a book like Metabolic Freedom. The reason why I wrote this book specifically, this book is not a niche book. It’s not a book that goes deep into the science.

It definitely has signs, but it was written for the masses. It was written for you to understand how your body works, simple swaps you could make. Here’s a 30-day plan. I wanted to write something that appealed to the masses, that made a dent in what we see the disease out there. I want to make a dent in the disease. So whatever problem we see out there that you see out there for those watching and listening, I think it’s so great to have a book as a solution, a book that somebody could read or listen to or reference as a solution. And that’s the reason why

I wrote this book, it’s the reason why I’m already writing my next book. I think it’s such an incredible thing to have and gets you on, I mean we could talk more about it, it gets you on stages, it gets you more interviews, it’s like there’s so many things to it that AJ could just teach you for hours. But you know, for me, I wanted to have a resource for the masses and I believe that I accomplished that with MetaBolt Freedom.

Rory & AJ Vaden (49:21)
Yeah, I would second that. I really do believe it’s a calling to write a book. A lot of people have information to share, but it’s a calling and it’s a discipline to write a book. But to that point, it creates a document that you can give to people, right? And people who find value in it gives. there’s something tangible about a book that…

The ever greenness of it just seems to way outlast a podcast or social media post or a blog. and I think that’s really meaningful and impactful and it’s a lot of work, right? And that’s a great reminder to all of you who listening, who are getting all of your health tips from Tik TOK or Instagram or YouTube. It’s like the amount of time that we prep. I can just say for me, it’s like, do 15 minutes prep for a podcast, five years of prep for a book.

So if you think about the depth and the knowledge and the time that you put into a book versus a social post or a podcast, it’s extraordinarily different. And so put some weight into like what actual books are you reading? Real expertise, real wisdom, especially when it comes to your health and making sure you’re not just listening to the latest TikTok influencer, but you’re actually getting real expertise and experience. All right, then last question. ⁓

Ben Azadi (50:32)
Yes.

Rory & AJ Vaden (50:34)
This is a totally personal question for everyone who’s listening, who really resonates with what you said today. And they’ve been on the struggle bus and they are struggling with obesity or overweight. but they know like I’m doing all these things and I’m trying and you know, all the things that you probably felt and that I have felt in the past too. What would you say is their very first next step after listening to this conversation?

Ben Azadi (50:58)
I would say, you know, what needs to change is the, your self image, the way you view yourself at a subconscious level. you can make all the conscious decisions to change, do keto fasting, all the things you heard today, but you’ll find a way to sabotage yourself. If you don’t change it at a subconscious level, it’s the way you view yourself, your self image, chapter 10 of metabolic freedom gets into this, but I will say this. One of the things I recommend in chapter 10 that I’ll recommend now is my answer is to on a, a card, a index card, a piece of paper, write down that

new version of yourself, the new image of yourself. Write it down in present tense. Thank God for it, that this is the way that I would recommend it. I would say, I’m so happy and grateful now that, and then you write this beautiful new self image of yourself. So if you’re overweight, the self image would be, I’m so happy and grateful now that I’m at my perfect weight. I’m healthy. I have optimal energy levels. The perfect health I seek is now seeking me. I remove blockages between us. Glory to God for helping me achieve optimal health.

You write that down and you read it every single day, every single morning, right before bed. You do that for 30 days. And what happens is now you start to put this new idea into the subconscious mind. It replaces the old idea. And then you become unstoppable. You no longer sabotage yourself. You start to get some serious momentum. So that would be my tip. Write down that new image, read it every day, at least for 30 days and watch what it does to change your life.

Rory & AJ Vaden (52:20)
So good. So, so good. This has been amazing. Thank you guys so much. Please everyone check out the show notes. We will put all the places where you can get the book, listen to the podcast, follow Ben on social and let’s start 2026 out on the right foot, which is getting healthy inside out. Thanks everyone for listening. We’ll see you next time on the wealthy and well-known podcast.

WWK Ep 012: From Rainmaker to Revenue Machine: How to Build a Sales Team That Wins Without You

Speaker 1 (00:00)
If you can’t sell, your business is dead. If you can’t sell, your dream is dead. If you can’t sell, you can’t staff your team. If you can’t sell, you can’t create technology. If you can’t sell, you don’t have a business. So to me, I agree with you that sales

as the heartbeat of the culture is first and foremost.

If you as the owner or entrepreneur founder disappeared from your business for 30 days, would sales continue or would they stall? That’s what we’re talking about on today’s episode. How to scale your sales, how to grow your revenue, how to close deals without a founder dependent or CEO or leader dependent company. Welcome back to the Wealthy and Well-Known Podcast. This is where we teach you how to grow your influence, your income.

so that you can make a bigger impact in the world. I joined by my business partner, my wife, my best friend and co-host, AJ Vaden.

Speaker 2 (01:02)
All right, what are we gonna talk about?

Speaker 1 (01:04)
Let’s do this. So we’re talking about scaling sales without it being dependent on you and you are the CEO of brand brand builders group. We have an eight figure business. How have we done that without having you involved in doing sales calls? So I guess I would open by just wanting to hear some of your philosophies about when do you think is the right time for the CEO founders to be doing sales calls? How do we

pull you out and when did we pull you out and maybe just share some of that story.

Speaker 2 (01:35)
This is very short, answer.

you’re here. ⁓ I don’t have to do all the sales calls you are, but that’s a unique benefit of being in a partnership. Now, what I would say is, ⁓ you know, that’s, that’s simply the conversation and the transition from startup to established, right? In the very beginning, you and I both were taking sales calls, but so is our whole team. I think one of the things that a lot of people miss when it comes to entrepreneurship or starting a new company is like sales is

how you grow, right? It’s like you’re not gonna cut your way to success. You have to grow your way to success. And I think a lot of people think somehow they should outgrow sales and every company should have a sales minded culture. Sales is not a department. Sales is not a task. Like sales is a mindset. Sales is a culture that has to be grown and established within a company. And it starts with the founder, right? And it’s like, if the founder wants to get out

selling or they think selling is beneath them. Well, as the leader goes, so does everyone else. And they think, sales, a sales position is a stepping stone. It’s like, no sales is the cornerstone of companies in order to grow and scale or just to survive. Right. We talked about this in a recent episode, how 90 % of all small businesses fail within the first 10 years. And most of them, it’s most of them, not all of them, most

some of is they run out of money. Some of it is they get burnt out and they just don’t want to do it anymore. But for the most part, that’s not it. They run out of runway, i.e. revenue. And that’s because they didn’t have a sales-focused culture or a sales-minded group of people. So in my opinion, it’s like even though I have phased out of taking sales calls on a formal role, I take sales calls anytime that’s needed. Right? It’s like…

I will make time in my calendar. mean, we’re fairly established. We’re seven years in a brain builders group, but at our former entity, I still had the predominant amount of time on my schedule. Even 13 years later was generating leads and making sales calls. It was a sales mindset. And even today it’s like, have leads in my calendar right now that I will make time for. Right. And so that is still a part of what my role is. It’s still what has attention and

It’s just not my main attention and focus as we have built up a group of people now the unique part of our dynamic is that I have a partner right a you know a husband and a spouse who also carries the weight and some of those and I think that’s when if you don’t have that in a Partnership then at some point you’ve got to hire a sales minded leader to help build up that sales culture But I think this is just as an important question for you because you know we made the decision or

on in our business, I was going to take on the operations, finance, administrative parts of the business and that you would take on more of the sales and marketing. And it hasn’t been until really the last year, two years, so five years into the business that we’ve really started stepping you out of that.

Speaker 1 (04:52)
Yeah, and it’s interesting because I think our roles almost flipped from our first company to our second company. In our first company, I was more behind the scenes creating the strategy operations, et cetera, and you were the top revenue producer in Brand Builders Group. Those roles have flipped. One thing I will say directly that I think is a lie and a mistake and crappy advice that people get is they say, hey, if you want to build a great business, all you have to do is build a great product. I don’t believe that.

I can share with you countless examples of friends and stories that we’ve heard of people who have amazing products and the businesses crash because they never learn how to sell. If you can’t sell, your business is dead. If you can’t sell, your dream is dead. If you can’t sell, you can’t staff your team. If you can’t sell, you can’t create technology. If you can’t sell, you don’t have a business. So to me, I agree with you that sales

as the heartbeat of the culture is first and foremost. And we’re living through this right now. Last year was one of our toughest years, probably our single toughest year in sales that we’ve had, I would say in seven years. And so it is like an all recommitment back to sales. It’s like nothing else matters. Like if we can’t fix the front door of the company and create the conversions and the lead flow that we need, literally nothing else matters. ⁓

So sales gives life to everything and that’s a commitment and decision you gotta make. And I think most founders and CEOs are sort of reluctant. Like sales is like the necessary evil we have to do or that’s like the grunt work that like those people over there do or I’m above selling or like if our product’s so good, we shouldn’t have to sell it.

Speaker 2 (06:40)
I would just add one to that. think a lot of founders and CEOs, they think that sales is the first thing that they should get off their plate. And it’s not even that. I mean, I think some people do think sales is beneath them and now I’m the owner, I’m the founder, I’m an executive. it’s like, and your number one job is revenue. That’s what it means to be the owner. It’s like you create the revenue to actually provide for your company and your team that is your number

one role. But what I see more often is people go, ⁓ this is the first thing to get off my plate to outsource, to delegate, to hire for. And our philosophy is and has always been sales is never the first thing. It’s the last thing. It’s the last thing that you let go of as a founder. It’s not the first thing, right? The first thing is all the very menial, mundane, repetitive, easy to train tasks.

But sales is what you hold on to until the very, very end. So you know that there is a system. You know there’s a process. It’s documented. It’s trainable. You know that there is something that you can pass it off to someone. You’re tracking the stats and you have all of that in place. It’s the last thing, not the first thing.

Speaker 1 (07:55)
Now,

I think if someone’s out there asking why is sales the last thing or one of the last things that should come off the founder’s plate, if you don’t know the answer to that question, then there’s an important lesson you need to learn about sales, which is that sales is a transference of emotion. Sales is a transference of conviction. At the end of the day, sales is an emotional part of the business and the human connection. And that emotion radiates most powerfully

from the founder. So a founder should have higher conversion rates because it’s their life, it’s their mission, it’s inherently connected to who they are and why they exist in the world. And to some extent, you can transfer that to other people, but it typically never is quite as concentrated or as passionate from the founder. And so that is why I think we have to hang on to it.

Speaker 2 (08:47)
And just to add to that, think one of the other things is some of the hardest things for people to transfer our stories. And one of the reasons that I think it’s so important that it’s the last thing that a founder lets go of is no one has the story recall like the founder. Why we started all the testimonials, the client success stories, the trials, the successes, they are the repository for the entire company history.

And a lot of people don’t take the time to sit, record, tell, and train. They just don’t. They expect somebody that they hire who has a lot of sales skills, and I’m using bunny ears with that, are gonna be able to come in and just do what they do.

They don’t, they can’t because they don’t have the entire story recall that the founder does. They don’t have the recollection of, when this happened and when this happened and this story and this thing, ⁓ those things have to be documented.

Speaker 1 (09:50)
You said

the backstory of why we started the company, how we started the company. There’s no way they have that unless you tell it and.

Speaker 2 (09:58)
Tell

it and tell it again and again and again and it’s documented so that somebody else until they have their own stories can borrow your stories. And again, that is a training process but requires documentation and time and most people skip that.

Speaker 1 (10:15)
Let’s walk people through then to go, okay, don’t rush to outsource sales. I think that’s our first kind of point here, but to go, all right, then when, let’s talk through, when do you start outsourcing sales? How do you start outsourcing sales? Why does outsourcing sales fail? And what needs to happen, I think, to outsource sales to somebody else effectively. So.

When do you think is the right time to have this conversation? If we’re saying it should be kind of like the last thing, how do you know when is the right time to start looking at training someone or someone’s outside of the founder to sell?

Speaker 2 (10:56)
In my opinion, this is basic laws of economics. It’s supply and demand. Like at some point when you have gotten off every single thing off of your plate that can be delegated, that can be trained to someone else that doesn’t have such a risk factor involved. And again, I just want to encourage everyone. One of the reasons we say it’s last is it has the most risk, right? If you outsource it and it doesn’t work, it fails and someone else doesn’t follow through or they bail.

Speaker 1 (11:27)
Company’s over.

Speaker 2 (11:28)
It’s catastrophic. And now you’re back in sales as the founder with everything else. Right? There are other things though that are easily or easier, but in my opinion, easily transferable that are just less, less risky. Right? So I think if you’re following the basic laws of economics, supply and demand, it’s when there is more demand on your calendar than you have supply. And that is after you have gotten off all of the administrative, all of the

operations, all of the personal tasks that can be, you know, removed or, you know, replaced with technologies, automation, outsource contractors, agencies, fractional teams, whatever, full-time employees, it doesn’t matter. But once those are all done and then there’s just so many calls on your calendar that you can’t handle it, then you start, then you start adding people in. But again, you don’t take it all off your calendar. You don’t take it all off your

plate, you gradually do that. And it’s like, okay, now I’m going to gradually start taking some of these sales calls off my calendar because that’s a part of training, right? It’s not like you hire someone, you go great. 100 % of what was on my plate is now on yours. Good luck, go team, go. That’s not how it works. And so I think it’s a gradual process. Once everything else has been outsourced, delegated, automated, eliminated, you know, referring to the focus funnel.

Speaker 1 (12:54)
Shout out to Procrastinating on Purpose, second book. It’s a good one. It does, it covers a lot of these emotions.

Speaker 2 (13:00)
But then and only then do you start the gradual process of backfilling for sales.

Speaker 1 (13:08)
And I would

say like, we’re, I feel a little bit like we’re living this right now because we did have a tougher year in revenue last year. And it’s like, what is Rory doing in this year? I’m back in sales and it’s like, I’m waking up all day, every day. And I go at the end of the day, you know, people joke about, you’re the janitor. You take the trash out. And it’s like, that’s not the thing that saves the company. Sales is the thing that saves the company. And you go, if, if, if somebody doesn’t wake up and say, I’m going to go generate leads.

then everybody’s job is in trouble. And so I view myself even today, you know, this is our second eight figure business. We’re now seven years into brand builders group as the rainmaker, right? So ultimately in the beginning, we’re doing sales calls like, and we’re actually like closing sales.

Even now, I still close some sales, but in general, I’m like, my job is to bring in leads and to create lead flow and a cascade of warm leads. And to your point, supply and demand, where I go where I don’t have another minute on my calendar to take a call. Now I start passing them to the team. And now we have full time sales team that we’re trying to fill up. And then, and then, you know, I think

the mature, you know, that phase one is you’re doing the lead generation and the selling yourself. Phase two is you get like one person who can just basically handle the overflow of your leads. And then the more advanced stages are, can I train other people to be the rainmakers and can we generate other lead sources outside of me? Because if I am the sole lead generator,

then the company is also at a big risk and a big liability if something were to happen to me.

Speaker 2 (14:57)
But I think comes back to one of the first things we talked about, is sales as a cultural component, sales as a mindset, and it doesn’t live with a person. It doesn’t live within a department. You have to have a company. You have to have a culture where everyone has leads on their mind. Everyone has revenue on their mind. Doesn’t matter if it’s in customer service, operations, finance, marketing. It’s like everyone is looking at leads in two different ways.

How do I bring them in and how do I keep the ones I have? It’s two very distinct things, but that means everyone is involved in revenue generation and revenue retention. Yes. And I was going to call it revenue protection. Protection because everyone plays a role. And if you think you don’t, well, you’re severely mistaken. And that is part of the founder’s job to communicate. No, every role is tied to revenue.

Speaker 1 (15:42)
that we’re having a new

On this note of every role is tied to revenue. think particularly like if you’re in a small business and you just think like say you’re an operational person and you’re you think I want to raise and you go why because I’ve been here a long time because I’m good at what I do because I work hard. All good reasons you should get a raise. The most practical thing that’s going to drive whether or not you get a raise

is if you contribute to revenue coming in the door, and if the revenue of the entire company is growing. If the revenue of the company is not growing, then no matter how valuable you are and how important you are, there’s not a magic pot of money that we just go, we like you, you’re so great, here’s some money, right? It’s like, we have to grow revenue. It’s different maybe when you’re in private, you have a company that’s owned by private equity and these giant corporations that just have like, you know,

They’re willing to go massively into debt and they have all these different ways of banks and stuff to finance. It’s not most American businesses. And so most American businesses live and die by revenue, including your job, no matter what position you’re in. So to your point about everybody needs to care about this, that’s how you get a raise. It’s like you’re either bringing a customer in or you’re keeping a customer.

Speaker 2 (16:54)
That’s not most American.

It’s rather you’re generating revenue or you’re protecting the revenue, but every role is tied to revenue

Speaker 1 (17:14)
So let’s talk now about actually the function of outsourcing sales. So we go, okay, it’s time once there is enough demand generated, there’s an overflow of leads. So what’s the first thing we do ⁓ when we step into that? it could be six months in, it could be a year in, it could be five years in, but whenever…

we go, there’s more leads than I can keep up with. What’s the first thing we go out and do? How do we start thinking about what are the mission critical essential things to scale revenue beyond the founder?

Speaker 2 (17:52)
Number one, you document the process of what do you do to convert a lead into a customer. that whole, again, I think this is a huge mistake that people make, not just in sales, but just in business, is they lack processes. They lack documentation and they think if I just hire someone else, they’ll know what to do. No.

Speaker 1 (17:56)
Heck yes.

Speaker 2 (18:14)
I don’t know where this mysterious belief came from, but it’s like, no, your company is unique. Your systems are unique. Your processes are unique. your products are different and the way you sell them is different. We’re all different. And so you have to go, this is how we sell here. So bring the skills that you’ve learned, bring the knowledge that you have, and then let’s adapt those into how we sell here, what story we tell here. And that is how you have done it, which means you have to sit down and go, okay,

When I have customers, what do I say? What questions do I ask? One of the easiest ways to do that is just to record yourself.

Speaker 1 (18:52)
Yeah. So, so before you dive into like the recording and the train, the materials, I just really want to edify and underscore what you said there. We tend to think that a person will be our savior if there’s an issue or like a company and it’s like, we need help. And it’s like, no, it’s the process. You need the process because if you do get lucky and you find a unicorn who can just step in and take off and like run.

Speaker 2 (19:07)
I need help. hear about all of I just need help.

Speaker 1 (19:20)
Now you’re vulnerable to that person ⁓ leaving, which is what a founder is. The founder is like, it’s great for the founder to have passion, but if we don’t document the processes in the founder’s head, the whole company is vulnerable to something happened to that founder. So documenting the process that we take people through and what happens at each stage in each step is truly number one. And I think it is not something people think about. It’s the opposite of how people think in the world.

Speaker 2 (19:51)
Yeah, I think one of the things that we’ve learned, our prior company was a sales consulting and sales training company, so we have a lot to say about this. This is really all I did for companies for 13 years. This is it. All day, every day, I was thinking about what is your sales process? ⁓ How do you open? How do you close? What questions do you ask in between? Like this is all I did. And it is a severely missed thing, small business or corporate big business. ⁓

the board it’s amazing to me how many companies purely have no consistent process and it just totally depends on who you talk to with what’s going to be said today because there isn’t a consistent theme of what questions do we know are the most important to ask.

What are the pieces of information we need to get from the prospective client to know if they’re the right fit for us? Because not everyone is. And it’s like those things are severely undervalued in the importance of having a process that gives a consistent experience prospect to prospect, which is a part of how you create consistent revenue flow is that.

Everyone goes through the same process. Why? Because then you can figure out what works and what doesn’t. Who’s the ideal client? Who’s not? Because we’re all doing the same thing. But if no one’s doing the same thing, then some people get sold something very different than the next person, even though it’s the same product, same service, same company.

Speaker 1 (21:19)
I mean, what I just heard you say there is a consistent process precedes consistent revenue.

Speaker 2 (21:27)
100%.

Speaker 1 (21:29)
Totally. And I think one of the mistakes you got to watch out for when you’re making that transition from the founder or whatever, the executive leader, CEO selling to somebody else is because of the passion and because of the backstory and because of the things that we said earlier about why you don’t push sales off until the last kind of possible moment, founders can typically talk more in a sales conversation.

and sell more because they have so much passion. If your salespeople come on and all they do is talk, talk, talk, you’re gonna lose sales. So when you are saying you have to figure out questions, what are the right questions to ask? One of our big beliefs is that you are selling when they are talking in professional salesmanship, in true scalable revenue with true systems and true processes. And so I think

under like figuring out what those questions are is a really important first step. Now you said record yourself. So go back, go back to that and pick up from there.

Speaker 2 (22:37)
Yeah. And I’ll, and I’ll just add this in, like one of the things that I have seen over my 20 years in sales has been you can take a top performing salesperson at another organization and bring them into yours and with no process, no system, no way of doing things. And they’ll be a C player and a heartbeat. They’ll go from being a top producing performer somewhere else, which is why you hired them and you expect them to come in and just figure it out. And they went from a top performing to an average or below average performing person.

overnight and you think it’s them. It’s not them. Right? You can do the same thing. You can take someone who’s never been in sales, put them through a proper process with the right scripts, the right training, the right accountability and turn them into a top performing person because you’re like, I know this works here. How do I know? Cause I’ve been doing it for the last this many years and I have documented it. And I know if you ask this and you say this and it’s this type of person, this is what’s going to happen. There’s predictability in it.

Now there’s a numbers part of that too, but that is the power of a process, specifically in sales, but not only in sales. So yeah, so how do you start building that process is you just start recording yourself.

Speaker 1 (23:48)
So on this note, so there’s a metaphor that we use, by the way, we, one of our courses is called scale your sales. It’s in our phase four curriculum. For those of you that are members, you have access to that. We walk you through the eight S’s of creating a predictable revenue inside any organization. But one of the metaphors that we use, which you’re touching on here is we talk about the seed and the soil, right? So the environment is the soil and you got to have great processes. You can take a healthy seed.

That is a perfect seed, but if it’s placed in the wrong soil, it will not grow. Right. And likewise, if you have great soil, but you have the wrong seed, it won’t grow. so part of the trick with sales is going, I need to find the right seed, the right type of person for what we do. And then most importantly, I need to create the right environment for them to flourish. And when you do that, you get, that’s where the exponential growth happens. ⁓ so finding, finding those people is, a huge, huge part. Okay. So pick up, pick up. So you’re recording.

This is step one of creating a sales process starts with you recording yourself.

Speaker 2 (24:52)
Now what I would say today is very different than what I would have said two years ago or even a year ago because of the emergence of AI right and this makes it inexcusable for you not to have a process today like what would have taken a company months and a lot of money to pay me to do right so I’m glad I’m not doing that anymore because I would have been like you don’t even need me like there’s a part of that where it’s like yeah pay for some strategy but literally

what would have cost companies tens of thousands of dollars and months of their time, I could probably now whip out for someone in 48 hours because of AI. there is no excuse. It’s inexcusable. So what I would do is I would take 10 sales calls that I, the founder, have actually done myself. I would take at least five that have gone as ideal as possible.

Speaker 1 (25:29)
Because of AI.

like normal.

Speaker 2 (25:48)
Normal,

right? So not the weird outliers or this, this, that, but ideally those five would have also been yeses, right? Then I’m gonna take two that resulted in a outlier type of situation, but somehow came back into, okay, that was a little unique, but this is where we landed, right? So that gets you to seven. And then I would take three where they were clearly not a fit.

Right? And how do you know they’re in a fit? They said no, they did not buy. That’s how you know they were in a fit. But I would take 10, right? And that’s how I would get to the 10. I would take each of those recordings. I would have them transcribed. And then I would upload those into your preferred AI model, chat, GBT, Claw, Gemini, whatever you use, doesn’t matter. And then you gotta have a really good healthy prompt. And the first thing you would do is you have to ask yourself, what are the parts of a sales script? Right? So you have to know that.

Right? So this is where people would still actually pay for sales consulting today is, we don’t know that. Right? But what’s the strategy that I’m actually looking for? You can’t just say, hey, listen to these and create me a sales script. Right. That’s not how it works. That’s where AI doesn’t help you. You humans still have to have the strategy of what do I want you to do? Then AI is the expedition to

Speaker 1 (27:01)
which by the way, if you are a brand builders member, you have access to brand bot, which is everything we teach. One of our bots is called Sales Script Bot. It has already been trained on all the principles that we teach in our service centered methodology. And so it will take your entire brand memory of all the other things you’ve been uploading and it will automatically create you a custom script for your business.

based on our expertise on top of it and it will give you that structure and that’s one of the reasons we created the tool is AI can’t just really whip that part out but either way it’d still be much better than nothing. You could still get much further than you could, know, decade ago.

Speaker 2 (27:41)
Sales script bot is unique for members for all non members. I think this is this is really important It’s like you have to have this strategy to know what to do and then you have to tell it and so let’s talk about what are the parts of a script right and some people don’t like the word script call it outline guidelines talk tracks, whatever Don’t get hung up on the words. I’m gonna use script because it’s the easiest thing to do And the first thing is you have to have an opening Right. It’s like what and it asked it to evaluate of these ten sales calls. Find me. What are the costs?

common themes in my opening, right? So how do you actually start the conversation? That could be a sentence, a paragraph, it could be one minute, it could be five minutes, but what are the components of how I open in my sales calls? Part two is what are the most common and the most impactful questions that I ask that elicit responses that lead to a sale?

Right? And again, this is, this is a part of your expedition process. This doesn’t mean this is going to be what it is. It’s like what you’re looking for here. What are the common themes? What are the common practices? What are the commonalities amongst all the people that I talked to that happen on a recurring basis? Now, if you find there are none, well then you’re, then you’ve got to use this own process of going, well maybe that’s why I have really inconsistent sales. I don’t do anything the same. Huh.

Speaker 1 (28:54)
You’re trouble.

Speaker 2 (29:05)
And I would say also if you’re a salesperson who’s listening to this, I would also say this practice isn’t just for founders. This is for salespeople too. Anyone who is generating revenue has to be in the art of listening to what you do. This is your craft. This is your skill set.

Speaker 1 (29:21)
or

sales managers building a sales team. I it’s 100%.

Speaker 2 (29:25)
What you have to Imagine a professional sports team going out on the field and they’ve never watched game footage. Or had a play. Imagine. Can you imagine?

Speaker 1 (29:32)
or how to playbook.

Salespeople do that every day.

Speaker 2 (29:37)
In business, it happens all day long, every single day, and that’s why so many people run out of runway. That’s why 90 % of small businesses don’t make it past 10 years. There’s a reason why. They’re not committed to the documentation, to the process. They’re not committed to the playbook. They’re not committed to the practice and the discipline of rinse and repeat, rinse and repeat, make it better, do it again, do it again, do it again. And I think that’s the power of sports.

That’s the power of being on a team is it teaches you like, there’s systems and rhythms. and there’s practice required. Y’all, same for business. Same for business.

Speaker 1 (30:15)
I

think a lot of people don’t realize how much of a science sales is. A lot of people think sales is just like this magic. It’s like you’re a funny person and you’re just like born with this talent to go out and sell. They have no idea how predictive it can be, how tactical, how structured, how it’s something that you can create a process, which is one of the reasons like for us, we’ve been blessed to like

I’m never concerned about sales. I mean, I focus on it, but I’m not worried about it because if our sales aren’t there, I know, oh, all we have to do is recommit to executing this set of fundamentals. And it will work. It’s not the theory of averages. It’s the law of averages. questions. Okay, so let’s talk about questions for a second. So high level, okay. Again, it’s a science for us. We’ve spent a lot of time studying this. And with the people we work with, we go deep, deep, deep. If you’re just starting out,

Speaker 2 (30:59)
to his questions.

Speaker 1 (31:13)
Don’t be too intimidated because at the end of the day, here’s what a sales is. You ask questions about what somebody wants their life to look like, and you ask questions about how does their life look currently now, and what’s the difference between the two. That’s what we call the gap, right? So if you ask them,

what do they want their life to look like or their business to look like or whatever you’re selling, right? Their marriage to look like, their health to look like. You ask them questions that cause them to articulate consciously what they want in their life and then you ask them questions about what their life looks like now. That delta creates the buying zone. That creates the gap. If it’s very clear they want something, they don’t have it and you’re positioned to go, we’re the bridge between those,

That is all of that is all of sales. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (32:10)
So part two is the questions, right? It’s like, what are the questions that you have to ask for you to determine if they’re a great fit for what you offer, right? And I think that’s an important distinction. These aren’t questions you Let’s talk about this. These aren’t questions you ask to sell them on what you offer.

Speaker 1 (32:25)
So this is a very radical philosophy that you have, we have, that is different. We don’t actually try to sell to every person we talk to. We don’t actually believe that every person should buy from us. Tell them what we actually do believe and what we try to instill in this.

Speaker 2 (32:44)
sales team. Well, I can tell you what I believe. I’m like sure it’s in alignment with what you believe. But I believe it’s like, listen, not everyone is a fit for me and I’m not a fit for everyone. I’m trying to work with an ideal client who I know, who I know because of the way they’ve answered these questions, are well positioned to get results that I know will happen if they do it. But here’s what’s important to me and here’s something that we’re trying to position our sales team. If you sell to everyone and we’re not completely sure that they’re aligned, when they

don’t succeed because they weren’t a fit, because they weren’t going to do the process, it makes us look bad. Right. It’s like all of a sudden their inability to follow through, their inability to commit because we didn’t ask the right questions and we didn’t present it the right way makes us look like we don’t know what we’re doing because they didn’t succeed. I want to work with people who I know will actually get results from our program because when they do get results, guess what happens?

Speaker 1 (33:41)
They were for everybody.

Speaker 2 (33:42)
They

refer everyone and they say, my gosh, this is the best program. It has changed my life. And we say all the time that the best form of marketing on the planet is a changed life. So work with people who you can change their life and they will send people to you, right? Because when you change someone’s life, they can’t help but tell people if you did a pretty good job, if you just like skidded through, no, I ain’t nobody talking about that. But if you go, oh my gosh.

This is amazing. I could not have done this without X, Y, and Z. And it doesn’t matter what it is. Like we’re moving into a new house right now and ⁓ we just got window coverings, right? And I sat through and did the wholesale presentation with the company that did all of our window coverings. And you might think that’s not necessarily a life-changing experience, right? So why would anyone recommend someone who sells window coverings? Like my walking around going, these window coverings have changed my life. No, but every single time someone comes into my house and I’m going like,

Look at how awesome these are. Like, look at this. It’s like, look at this. It’s like, they’re like, who did those? I’m like, and I’m happy to refer them. So am I screaming from the rooftops, window coverings changed my life? No. And at the same token, it’s going like, it was such a simple, easy process. They did what they said they were gonna do. They showed up. They had a simple install. When they found the errors, I didn’t even have to find them. They’re like, hey, just wanna let you know we saw this, we’re on it. We’ve already reordered the pieces. I’m like,

my gosh. That’s, that is customer service. I didn’t even have to go around and do it. They did it for me. So you have to think about it. This isn’t about the mountaintop life changing moments. It’s like, I didn’t even have to do a walkthrough. They found the errors and then they notified me and they’ve already ordered replacements and I didn’t even have to ask for it. That’s amazing.

Speaker 1 (35:32)
And I think if you, if you do sales, right. Sales should not be about pressure and persuasion. Sales should simply be a conversation about collaboration. And that’s something that’s very different. And if you do it that way, takes the pressure off your prospect and it takes the pressure off of you as a salesperson to go, I’m not trying to tuck you into something. I’m trying to discover if we have a match, right? And if we have a match and I know, like if we don’t have a match, I will tell you and say,

Speaker 2 (35:55)
.

Speaker 1 (36:02)
you know what, we’re not the right fit to work together and that’s okay. But if we do have a match, I’m gonna tell you, look, if you’re a mission driven messenger and you want to build your personal brand, we can change your freaking life. That’s what we do here, right? There’s a certain type of person.

Speaker 2 (36:17)
That conviction comes from asking the right questions and when they say the right answers, you’re like ding, ding, ding, ding. That’s right. That’s your choice. that’s part two is questions. Then part three ⁓ is what people would say the presentation, right? But what we would say is the conversation, right? I think a lot of people think sales is a presentation and that’s where they make the mistake. It’s a dialogue, not a monologue. But once you have the questions, now you move into, well, let me tell you what we do, how we do it, and why I think it’s a fit for you based on what you just told me.

me, right? So it’s the opening, right? Your introduction, it’s the questions, then it’s the presentation, right? And inevitably then it’s the questions. In sales, well, right? But I think in a lot of things, the questions can come in two different ways. They ask questions, which a lot of people perceive as objections. And we ask questions, which a lot of people perceive as closing. They’re just questions. Sales is just a series of questions from beginning to end from

Speaker 1 (36:57)
The closing questions.

Speaker 2 (37:16)
How are you today to do you want to give me your credit card? It’s just a series of questions ⁓ that go in a specific order and a flow. So you go from the opening, you go to the questioning, you go to the presenting, and then you go to the questioning, which is just part two of the beginning of the questioning. And it’s rather going to happen in two different flows, whether you’re going to have questions for them, such as, hey, does this seem like it’s a fit for you? Right? Does this fit in your budget?

Or they’re gonna have questions for you like, well, how much is this? How long is it gonna take? What are the payment terms? What are the agreement terms? But questions are gonna happen either way. Ideally, the presentation leads into you asking them a question, which is, based on what you heard today, does this feel like it’s a fit? Right? And then, it’s typically, people are gonna go, well, depends. How much is it? What are the timelines? And again,

Don’t get caught up in the idea of now it’s time to close or now I have to be prepared for objections. It’s just a conversation that continues with questions to drive people to a yes or a no. And I think that’s our big goal when it comes to sales, whether it’s the founder or it’s a brand new person who’s just entering into sales. The entire point of this entire conversation is to bring people to a point of decision. That is it. And I think it’s a successful sale.

If you get a yes, in my opinion, it’s a successful sale. If you get a no, the only unsuccessful sales conversations to me are water left open ended, which is that maybe follow up with me in three months. That is unsuccessful. A yes is good. A no is good. A maybe no good.

Speaker 1 (39:02)
Yeah, so if you are listening to this going, need help creating a sales process, either for myself, for my team to scale or just to find one person to take extra leads off your plate. If you get a free brand call.com forward slash podcast, that’s free brand call.com forward slash podcast. We’ll do our first call with you for free.

Again, we just wanna do, we’re gonna have a conversation with you and try to understand where you’re at and see if we can help you. And that’s what we’re here for, is to help you grow your impact and your income. That’s why we have the podcast. Before we land the plane, we’ve got our community question segment that we need to answer. This is a chance where our members, our active members in our program get to ask a question to submit to me and AJ to answer here on the podcast.

Speaker 2 (39:56)
All right, y’all. So here’s the question. I’ve scaled to seven figures, but I still feel like I’m the only one who can actually close sales. I’ve got a small sales team, but unless I’m on the call, things stall. How do I get my sales team to sell without me micromanaging every move? What a pertinent question. And I have to be honest, we did not know this was the question before we started, or at least I didn’t.

But here’s my answer to that. The very first thing that I would do to whoever asked this question would be ask yourself an honest question. Do you have a documented sales process?

Speaker 1 (40:34)
starts with having the documented process, and then you got to coach to it, you got to train to it, you got to hold accountable to it. So one of the things that we’ve done internally and ⁓ also have made available to our members is we created SalesGraderBot, where we upload the manuscript of what the sales talk.

is or the the the talk track of what it’s supposed to be and then you can upload the transcript of a recording of what a sales call actually was and then it will compare the two and it will grade each of the segments of the call that we talked about in this interview and it will give recommendations. So whether you have a tool to do that like we use and built or you’re doing it manually the point is you have to have a process and then you have to train and manage and hold accountable to that process.

Speaker 2 (41:21)
So I would say…

Once you ask yourself the first question is, do you have a documented sales process? If in your heart of hearts, you can go, I do, I really do. Then the question is, are you actually managing your sales team? Which means, are you actually listening to their calls? Are you auditing recordings? Are you sitting down with them going, you see this process and you see what you’re doing? They don’t line up. Because if you had a true process that you use and you go, well, I know it works. Like, I know it does. So then the question is, are they using it?

And if you’re not auditing calls and you’re not sitting down and listening to recordings and then coaching them, that would be the second question. It’s like, if you really have a sales process and you’re like, I did that, but it’s not working unless you’re on the call, then they’re likely not using it. Not because they’re defiant or they don’t want to. It’s like, people get off track. It’s like squirrel, rabbit, I forgot. yeah, I need to come back to that. So it’s, do you have one? And then are they using it?

Those would be the two things I would go back and reflect on as the founder or the sales manager. And in order to know that you have to have recordings, you have to audit them, and then you have to sit down and listen to them with your sales team. Pull up your sales process, pull up your scripts, listen, and go minute by minute. Yes, that feels like micromanaging. That’s not a bad thing. That’s also called training and coaching. Pull it up minute by minute and go make sure what they’re doing and what you have on paper actually match.

Speaker 1 (42:49)
To use the analogy that you used earlier, every professional athlete watches film and the coach pauses it and says, right here, do you see where you went this way? You should have gone that way. That is not what amateurs do. That’s what professionals do. Professionals get into the minute details of accountability. They have professional coaching. They get into the nitty gritty of not this, this.

and they do it again and again and again and again. So if you wanna be paid like a professional, you need to act like a professional. Professionals have coaches. If you need a coach, that’s part of what we do. You want your people to perform like professionals, they need a coach. That’s a part of what you have got to do. And that’s a reason to keep coming back and listen to this show every single week and share this episode with your team or anyone who you think should hear it.

Thanks for being a part of the wealthy and well-known podcast and a part of the brand builders group community. We’ll see you next time.

WWK Ep 011: Credibility vs. Virality: Why Trust Builds Businesses and Trends Don’t

Rory: [00:00:00] They take a viral video and they copy it, they replicate [00:00:05] it. They literally regurgitate it. They go, these are the types of videos that are going [00:00:10] viral. These are the kind of topics that are going viral. And then they. Basically clone it, [00:00:15] and that doesn’t make you a thought leader, that makes you a copycat.

I’m [00:00:20] not saying that you shouldn’t do that. I’m not necessarily saying it’s the wrong thing, but what I am saying [00:00:25] is that does not make you a thought leader. Yeah. That does not make you trusted. That [00:00:30] does not make you an authority.[00:00:35] [00:00:40] [00:00:45]

AJ: Welcome to the Wealthy and Well-Known podcast. I am joined here [00:00:50] by my partner in crime, Roy Vaden. Um, and today we’re gonna be [00:00:55] talking about why credibility beats virality. Mm-hmm. And this is [00:01:00] a special topic for me because I have a love hate relationship with all things social [00:01:05] media and all things that go viral.

There’s a love hate there. Uh, but here’s what I [00:01:10] think is really important is like attention. Is cheap, but [00:01:15] trust lasts forever. Right? And it’s like, are we doing everything that we’re doing to just [00:01:20] get attention? Are we actually doing it with real credibility that builds real [00:01:25] trust over time? So here’s the question.

What have you disappeared from social [00:01:30] media, from your digital footprint for 30 days? Would your [00:01:35] ideal customer still know, you know about, you know, what you do, still look for you, wait for [00:01:40] you? Or would they completely forget that you even existed? All right. So Rory, [00:01:45] here’s what we’re gonna do. We’re gonna start with this, uh, idea, this topic of the category of one.

Rory: Mm-hmm.

AJ: [00:01:50] So how do you become a category of one where you are the trusted [00:01:55] expert? That attracts your ideal customer, right? A trusted [00:02:00] customer who comes to you because of your credibility and your trust, not just because they saw [00:02:05] you on a viral cat video.

Rory: Mm-hmm. Yes. So I think [00:02:10] I would start the conversation to go, how do you do that versus how do you go [00:02:15] viral?

The way that you go viral. The most common way that people go viral [00:02:20] today is they take a viral video and they copy it. [00:02:25] They replicate it. They literally regurgitate it. They go, these are the types of [00:02:30] videos that are going viral. These are the kind of topics that are going viral. And then they. [00:02:35] Basically clone it.

And that doesn’t make you a thought leader. That [00:02:40] makes you a copycat. I’m not saying that you shouldn’t do that. I’m not necessarily saying it’s the [00:02:45] wrong thing, but what I am saying is that does not make you a thought leader. Yeah. That does [00:02:50] not make you trusted. That does not make you an authority. That does not make you [00:02:55] credible.

It, it makes, makes you, it makes you a commentator. It makes you a commentator. It makes you a copycat. You’re, you’re a [00:03:00] clone, like literally cloning now.

AJ: Or you go on. But is that [00:03:05] bad?

Rory: I don’t think it’s always bad. Um, I think [00:03:10] there’s a lot of wisdom to going, look, we’re there, there is a war for attention, and you’re going, [00:03:15] how do you get attention?

Well, you can pay for it, but if you’re not rich, then how do you get it? You have to earn it. You gotta [00:03:20] figure out a way. So I, I, I’m, I’m not necessarily against it. I am against. Plagiarism.

AJ: Mm-hmm. [00:03:25]

Rory: Uh, like verbatim plagiarism. And I would say I have a general [00:03:30] distaste for it personally. Like I would never trust somebody where I go, like, I [00:03:35] literally saw almost that exact same video from somebody else like.

Six weeks ago or [00:03:40] whatever. And that is what is, what is happening a lot right now. So,

AJ: so,

Rory: but [00:03:45] at the same time we do, we research viral videos to identify topics [00:03:50] because that tells you what the public is interested in. Right? So there’s a, there’s a balance there.

AJ: So, yeah. So I guess what I [00:03:55] was gonna ask is, you know, that old saying that’ll quote, if it ain’t broke, don’t [00:04:00] fix it.

Right? And not a little bit of this, of like, well, hey, everyone has figured out. Like this is what [00:04:05] goes viral. This is what works. Um. What, where, where’s the [00:04:10] line? Like that feels like a lot of gray area

Rory: of, of what you’re, you’re saying you should do that. [00:04:15]

AJ: I’m asking.

Rory: Well, I think, I think that there’s a difference.

There’s a [00:04:20] difference between attention and authority.

AJ: Mm-hmm.

Rory: Modeling [00:04:25] or mimicking viral patterns is a way to get attention [00:04:30] and to the extent that attention is deserved and appropriate. I don’t think there’s [00:04:35] anything wrong with it, but I don’t believe that’s the way to build authority. It’s it’s [00:04:40] smoke.

It’s. It’s smoke and mirrors, right? Because even if I have lots of followers and you think I know what I’m talking [00:04:45] about, the moment we actually engage and you find out, oh, I don’t actually [00:04:50] really know anything, I’m just parroting stuff from other people. You can’t build a [00:04:55] business that way. You can’t build a brand that way.

It’s the difference between a social [00:05:00] media following. And an actual brand that lasts the test of time, [00:05:05] right? Speakers try to hack, uh, this, where they’re like, well, I’m gonna hack the [00:05:10] algorithm. So when you put you search, best keynote speaker, my name pops up. Okay. I’m [00:05:15] not against that technique, but I’m telling you,

AJ: once you get on stage,

Rory: once you get on stage, [00:05:20] you can’t fake it.

And if you, if, if you come on stage and then somebody comes out there either [00:05:25] before you or after you who is a real professional, you’re gonna be embarrassed. You’re [00:05:30] going to, you’re going to look so you can trick people. For a while, [00:05:35] right? You can trick people to get attention, but you can’t trick people long-term into [00:05:40] building authority.

You have to be a person of substance. You have to be a true thought leader. And so what we [00:05:45] do at Brand Builders Group, honestly, I would say is a balance. It’s a blend of attention and [00:05:50] authority, but I would say we have a strong disposition towards authority [00:05:55] driving things towards trust, building things towards credibility and [00:06:00] virality as kind of like secondary in nature.

AJ: You know what I. Takeaway from what I just [00:06:05] heard you say, and I don’t think I’ve ever thought about it this exact way, is that virality may build [00:06:10] your audience, but credibility and authority actually builds your business.

Rory: [00:06:15] Hmm.

AJ: And I think those are really two distinct things that people get confused often.[00:06:20]

Like do more followers equal more business. Not [00:06:25] necessarily, uh, sometimes, but there’s no direct correlation per se, [00:06:30] unless you’re actually talking about things that relate to your business, to your authority, to your credibility, and are you [00:06:35] talking to your target audience versus whatever went viral?

Rory: And do you [00:06:40] have a real like system of business?

So I think a lot of people today put a lot of [00:06:45] emphasis on systems and processes and strategies to attract [00:06:50] attention,

AJ: right?

Rory: And they don’t put the same rigor into the systems and processes and [00:06:55] methodology to deliver client results.

AJ: Amen.

Rory: So they bring a lot of people. [00:07:00] Then nobody transforms. Nobody. You know, they, they charge whatever [00:07:05] they, they, they charge the most they can, they make short term money and then the thing falls [00:07:10] apart and they can’t figure out why.

And they’re like, oh, well, leads are more expensive. It’s like, no, because, because your business [00:07:15] isn’t built on solid principles. Okay. And real expertise.

AJ: So let’s go back to this question of this [00:07:20] becoming this category of one, which I love this idea of like virality versus true authority. [00:07:25] Mm-hmm. And okay.

Define for us then, what is true [00:07:30] authority and what’s the difference when it comes to this digital ecosystem that we’re all [00:07:35] living in?

Rory: Yeah, so I think true authority comes [00:07:40] from a track record of results. The number one place that authority comes from is [00:07:45] a track record of results. Of results, and I think that track record starts in your own [00:07:50] life and your ability to produce a result.

And then it is. [00:07:55] You know, further expanded by your ability to create that result in the [00:08:00] lives of others, right? It’s why on the inside cover of this book it says. You’re most powerfully [00:08:05] positioned to serve the person you once were. It’s why that’s become such a mantra for our community and [00:08:10] our members is because we’re going, that may not be the way to go viral the [00:08:15] fastest.

It is the way to build a business the fastest. Your [00:08:20] credibility doesn’t come from. It also doesn’t come from trite, things like that you’ve been in the media or [00:08:25] that you got a fancy degree from a big school or your social media following, or who your [00:08:30] friends are. It comes from the actual ability to deliver results, [00:08:35] and that isn’t necessarily the same thing that gets you massive [00:08:40] attention.

AJ: Okay. I have a question for you going off script a little bit. Why not? [00:08:45] Like why doesn’t real authority, real expertise, real thought [00:08:50] leadership, why doesn’t that attract attention? Why doesn’t that go viral?

Rory: [00:08:55] Because viral is all [00:09:00] about the unexpected, right? Viral is about the sensational [00:09:05] viral is about. The, the most emotional, it’s the, [00:09:10] it’s the most unusual vi viral is, um, I mean sensational would be [00:09:15] the word.

Viral.

AJ: Go ahead.

Rory: Viral tends to happen at the extremes, but [00:09:20] success. Tends to be about being brilliant at the basics, focusing on [00:09:25] the fundamentals, mastering the things. Most of success in life [00:09:30] comes from doing the unsexy things really well, and [00:09:35] unsexy doesn’t go viral. That’s, that’s why real authority, [00:09:40] real thought leadership often doesn’t go viral because real authority and real thought leadership is [00:09:45] focused on creating a transformation and a result.

And that’s usually being brilliant at the [00:09:50] basics, not attracting attention, which is a bunch of random stuff we’ve never heard. That’s so like, [00:09:55] you know, captivating. And so, you know, there can be a blend of both. But that’s, that’s [00:10:00] how I would answer that question.

AJ: Yeah, it’s interesting, like the way I interpret that is almost, it’s [00:10:05] like.

At the basics, uh, being successful is almost [00:10:10] boring. It’s like the true keys, uh, to success. The [00:10:15] fundamentals of like what makes you successful are pretty boring. They’re [00:10:20] consistent. They’re, uh, repetitive, they’re boring.

Rory: I mean, look at [00:10:25] our, our first book, take the Stairs. Like that is the truth. You want to be, you want to know how to be [00:10:30] successful in life.

Read that book. It’s never changed. It never will change. Yeah. Everything in there is [00:10:35] timeless. That book doesn’t go, doesn’t go viral because. It’s not what [00:10:40] people want to hear, it’s what they need to hear. And I think that’s just a big [00:10:45] difference. It’s a difference between media, by the way, right? Media is not in the business of [00:10:50] accuracy.

Yeah. Media is not in the business of truth. Media is not in the business of transformation. [00:10:55] Media is in the business of attention, and the more polarizing, the more [00:11:00] emotional, the more controversial, the more unusual, the more sensational, the more people pay [00:11:05] attention and they make money from attention because they make money on advertising.

When you’re building a [00:11:10] brand, though, you’re building a sustainable, I deliver a result. That comes [00:11:15] from the fact that hard work, hard

AJ: work, and time,

Rory: and time and and experience.

AJ: [00:11:20] People don’t love hearing that.

Rory: No, they don’t. They don’t, it’s not, at least, it’s just not what they pay [00:11:25] attention to,

AJ: but yet it is the truth.

Rory: Absolutely. Now, the [00:11:30] good news about that is that anybody, you know, if you’re struggling in your business right now and [00:11:35] you’re, you’re scared and you’re like, I don’t know where to turn. I don’t know what to do. You should have faith that you [00:11:40] go. If you find someone who knows and who’s been successful, they will tell you.[00:11:45]

These are the principles. These are the basics. And if you master these things, you [00:11:50] can’t not succeed. Like it’s impossible. Like the [00:11:55] principles. The success principles are true in every walk of life and in every [00:12:00] department or function of a business. And if you do them well. You will win [00:12:05] eventually, but people waste all their time chasing a bunch of like [00:12:10] sensational garbage.

Right.

AJ: So let’s talk about some of these basics that you’re talking about doing work. ’cause some people might be listening going, what [00:12:15] are these basics? What are, yeah. Tell me what are the basics? Gimme the boring stuff. Um, so let’s talk about the [00:12:20] boring stuff for a minute, because I think if that’s really where true authority.

Comes [00:12:25] from, and that’s where credibility comes from, thus trust, right? And those are the true [00:12:30] building blocks. Then let’s talk about those for a minute. I think it’s worthwhile to, you know, explore [00:12:35] well, how can we have this combination of the truth and the basics and the [00:12:40] fundamentals, and how do we actually make that go viral today?

What I would love to see something going viral [00:12:45] is telling the truth of like, it takes time. And hard work [00:12:50] and discipline, like I’d love for that to be a message that’s preached a little bit more. It might not be the [00:12:55] sexy one, but it is a true one. Um, but let’s talk about the basics. What are they? So when you say, Hey, [00:13:00] doesn’t matter.

Who tells you this? Like these are the timeless principles of success. These [00:13:05] are the basic building blocks of true business. What they,

Rory: yeah, so I mean, it depends [00:13:10] on what the context is. If we’re going, are we talking about there’s, there’s principles of sales, [00:13:15] there’s principles of marketing, right? So we teach.

Eight figure entrepreneur. We teach that [00:13:20] every business is, has eight functions. Eight doesn’t matter if you have one person or you [00:13:25] have a hundred thousand employees, there’s eight functions. I would argue that [00:13:30] marketing sales. Fulfillment, customer service, hr, [00:13:35] finance, administration, operations, and it all have fundamentals for those things.[00:13:40]

If you’re talking about personal development, right? That would be more like the Take the Stairs book. These are the, the [00:13:45] truths of success of personal development. If you talked about the principles of time management, I would [00:13:50] say that’s what my second book was all about. Uh, you know, five permissions to multiply your Time.[00:13:55]

If you wanna know the principles of being successful at personal branding, that’s what this is. And [00:14:00] by the way. I actually think if you look at our life story, if you look at the [00:14:05] arc of our career in many ways we’re like the tortoise in the [00:14:10] tortoise versus the hare. We teach truths. We talk about [00:14:15] principles.

We don’t focus first on gaining attention. We’ve [00:14:20] played the long game and that shows up in our life in how we live and [00:14:25] the family we have and, and the various things that God has blessed us with. But [00:14:30] one thing we have not done is accumulated massive large audiences. Mm-hmm. [00:14:35] And I think hopefully that’s in invigorating for some people to [00:14:40] go, oh, the sooner I stop chasing the glamor and the glitz of just [00:14:45] attention.

And the sooner I dig my heels in and go, I’m gonna, I’m gonna, [00:14:50] I’m gonna focus on principles and living principles in my life and teaching [00:14:55] principles in my business. I can build a life changing [00:15:00] business. Um, but it, it also, you know, it doesn’t happen overnight. ’cause it never happens overnight. Never happens [00:15:05] overnight.

But it’s just no one wants to hear the truth.

AJ: But I wanna pick one of those topics. Okay. So since we’re kind of talking about [00:15:10] authority, thought leadership, credibility mm-hmm. Like, if you were gonna go, here are the basics of building true [00:15:15] thought leadership.

Rory: Mm-hmm.

AJ: Let’s, let’s dig in on that one.

Rory: Okay. So I, [00:15:20] I think research and results are the two.

Ultimate sources I [00:15:25] think of, of authority, and I think results is more important, right? I personally would [00:15:30] take advice from an entrepreneur who sold their business for millions of dollars over a [00:15:35] professor at an institution who has never actually owned and operated a business

AJ: all day long.

Rory: [00:15:40] Right now.

That’s not to dis just say, oh, there’s no value in academia or [00:15:45] whatever.

AJ: Definitely value

Rory: extreme, and I’m very data-driven as you know, we are very data-driven [00:15:50] and I’m very much into research and analysis as well. But if you, if you look at the [00:15:55] research side, right? The results side is pretty self-explanatory.

Did you do the deal and can you help other people do the [00:16:00] deal?

AJ: Mm-hmm.

Rory: When you talk about thought leadership, my mind goes more towards the like academia side. [00:16:05] I think, uh, reading, writing and research would be like the [00:16:10] three Rs of academic authority. So reading means [00:16:15] I’m familiar with what’s been said in my area.[00:16:20]

I used to love the term thought leader, then I didn’t like it ’cause everyone [00:16:25] used it. And now I’m like, I really like this term because it is the real term to be a [00:16:30] thought leader is to be. A leader of the thinking that’s been done in that area. [00:16:35] So there is an element of innovation, and it’s like to be a true thought leader, I’m [00:16:40] innovating my space, but I can’t innovate my space until I understand my space, until I’ve [00:16:45] actually, you know, I’m actually up to date on the, the thinking that’s [00:16:50] been done in that space.

AJ: And I think this is important because that’s also where credibility comes from. [00:16:55] It’s like you actually know what you’re talking about. Which does require research, [00:17:00] writing and reading.

Rory: Yeah.

AJ: And I think, and that doesn’t matter what your business is, even if you’re listening going, well, I [00:17:05] wouldn’t call myself a thought leader, but it’s like, but do you know your space?

Are [00:17:10] you up to date on what’s happening in the market, in the economy, uh, with your local community? [00:17:15] Like whatever your business is, like, are you up to date on what’s happening with the thing that you do?

Rory: Yeah, and [00:17:20] I think that it’s important because, so we have a lot of clients at Brand Builders Group who were very [00:17:25] successful entrepreneurs and some of ’em times they’re like, well, you know, I know, I know a hundred times more [00:17:30] than Gary Vaynerchuk knows I should have all the followers.

And it’s like, well, results matters [00:17:35] for a lot. And I would say it should be number one, but. Your results also are very isolated to your [00:17:40] specific situation. So if you don’t understand the landscape of your space, it’s like what you [00:17:45] did may not be the thing that works for everybody all the time. [00:17:50] I do think it’s like the foundation, but the reading is going okay, I need to [00:17:55] understand what other people are experiencing.

And the research is really key to go, how do we [00:18:00] put data? How do we really separate a myth from truth? [00:18:05] How do we isolate? Tangible, practical things [00:18:10] and to like analyze and understand [00:18:15] empirically our space. And then writing, I think is one of the lost elements of [00:18:20] true thought leadership and a really critical one.

I

AJ: don’t wanna interrupt, but I, I think this is a really thing for those of you are, [00:18:25] listen. As I was listening, I, I thought about how many people that I [00:18:30] really love their writing, but when I go to hear them speak, like, and this [00:18:35] is like true thought leaders, it’s like they’re so academic, they’re [00:18:40] so well researched that I’m like, huh?

It’s like it just went over my head and [00:18:45] I’m like, wait, what? I thought I knew something and I don’t feel like, I don’t [00:18:50] know what you’re talking about. Like, so how do we not get lost in that? [00:18:55] Because it’s like, that happens a lot where it’s like, I’ll read something, I start following [00:19:00] someone and it’s like, oh, I wanna learn more about them.

And then it’s like the more that I follow them, I’m like, wait, [00:19:05] I’m clearly not their avatar. ’cause they’re talking so far above me that I feel like I’m in [00:19:10] first grade again because it’s so academic.

Rory: Yeah,

AJ: it’s so research. It’s like [00:19:15] how do I actually make this apply? It’s almost too theoretical or ambiguous or.[00:19:20]

Rory: I think you can err on either side of the spectrum. If you go, I have [00:19:25] a results-driven practitioner on one side, and I have [00:19:30] a data-driven researcher on the other side. If all you [00:19:35] know is what you’ve experienced, then I think you run the risk of being [00:19:40] detached from the reality of what other people are experiencing, and you might struggle to [00:19:45] articulate or translate what you’ve learned in a way that’s applicable to other people.

On the contrary, if you’re on [00:19:50] the other end of the spectrum here and you’re just nothing but a data-driven researcher, [00:19:55] you become detached from the reality of what people experience in the everyday world. [00:20:00] And one of the things that I love that I think is a trend of personal branding in [00:20:05] 2026 is that the people who are winning are a blend of both.

Mm-hmm. It was [00:20:10] like, you know, a lot of times there’s like this, this, the thought [00:20:15] leaders for years. Uh, you know, the people who got all the high speaking fees were like, [00:20:20] oh, I’m a bestselling author and I’ve sold all of these books, which I always find ironic [00:20:25] when I find it ironic when a Fortune 10 company pays money [00:20:30] to a speaker who runs a company of one employee to come and teach them [00:20:35] how to run their organization.

That’s a multinational corporation. I’m like, that’s a [00:20:40] big risk, right? Like you’re asking someone who has lived. Only in the world [00:20:45] of research and academia to come and teach you how to manage the complexities of a [00:20:50] multinational corporation. I’m like, it’s not that they can’t add value, I think we can learn something from everybody.

I’m just saying [00:20:55] that feels a bit disconnected. Um, and then, you know, there’s, on the other [00:21:00] side, I think there’s been a really a, a swing where it’s like we really want to hear from people who’ve done real life stuff. [00:21:05] Um. Then there’s all these marketers that have built these social media followings, which maybe [00:21:10] don’t have either, but they have a big following.

AJ: Mm-hmm.

Rory: And I think there’s this intersection that’s happening where it’s [00:21:15] like people go, no, I wanna learn from someone who’s done it, but I want them to also be data [00:21:20] driven in how they approach it. And I want them to be great at. You know, [00:21:25] producing content. Cody Sanchez,

AJ: I was gonna say, who’s, who are some examples?

Rory: Cody Sanchez is [00:21:30] one of the best examples right now. She has the track, personal track record of working in private [00:21:35] equity, you know, working on Wall Street, running her own businesses. She, they [00:21:40] operate funds, they invest in businesses. Mm-hmm. But they’re a researcher. They’re. [00:21:45] They are studying, they’re very big into data.

She’s writing, they’re [00:21:50] producing, they’re producing, and then they’re producing world class content and building an office,

AJ: but also she’s got a growing [00:21:55] platform. So what I hear you saying, it’s like, it’s really a three-part formula, right? [00:22:00] There’s the research, there’s the academia part, there’s the real world experience, and now [00:22:05] there’s this third component, which is platform matters.

Rory: Yeah. I mean, I’ve never said that, but as [00:22:10] I, I think. I think that’s the trend that is happening, and I think Gary Vaynerchuk fits that as [00:22:15] well. They, their team is very sophisticated, they’re very into research, obviously has a [00:22:20] monster platform and Gary knows what he’s talking about. Yeah, I mean, Alex Hormoz would be another one [00:22:25] where, where I’m like, man, like the guy, you know.

AJ: He researches it, he does it.

Rory: [00:22:30] He’s done it more than anything. I think Alex, he’s done it, is more of a practitioner, maybe [00:22:35] a little bit lighter on the research and writing. I mean, he’s written stuff, um, a little less [00:22:40] academia, but very practical. Mm-hmm. Um, and so I think that’s what people, they, [00:22:45] they want, um, you know, Dave Ramsey comes to mind as a longstanding person who’s like, [00:22:50]

AJ: yeah, those

Rory: are great examples.

Done all, all of those, but we wanna learn from somebody who’s done it. We [00:22:55] also want to learn from somebody who is well researched. It’s not just their opinions, [00:23:00] and we’re only going to get the chance to learn from ’em if they’re good at marketing and, and [00:23:05] media.

AJ: Otherwise, we don’t know they exist.

Rory: Bingo,

AJ: right?

Which is where components of the [00:23:10] virality come in. So does it mean it has to go global? Millions of views viral. [00:23:15] Um, but there’s. There is some importance of, you don’t wanna be the world’s best kept secret.

Rory: Can you [00:23:20] explain the, the, uh, the reputation formula to we, I haven’t really talked about that a lot on the [00:23:25] show.

We talk about it in the book, but like, it’d be good to do a review of. What the results, [00:23:30] or excuse me, the reputation formula is and how it works. I think that applies here.

AJ: Yeah, I think it’s, it’s [00:23:35] really simple and a brand builders group, uh, we talk about a very simple formula, which [00:23:40] is results times reach equals your reputation.

And [00:23:45] you can have amazing results. You can have sold your business for, uh, [00:23:50] lots of money with a huge impact and lots of employees and it’s a well established [00:23:55] business. And if. No one knows about it. And that reach is zero [00:24:00] results times zero. Zero. Mm-hmm. Which means your rep, your [00:24:05] reputation is nonexistent.

It lives in this tiny little bubble. Right. And the, [00:24:10] the opposite end of the spectrum is true as well. Right. You could have [00:24:15] tons of reach, right. Lots of followers, but if you have no real [00:24:20] results. Right. And you kind of talked about this earlier. At some point, you can only [00:24:25] pretend or fake it or ride that wave for so long, because even if you have tons of [00:24:30] followers and tons of audience and a huge platform, at some point we’re gonna realize, well, there’s no [00:24:35] real results there and this doesn’t work.

And again, reach time, zero, still zero, which means your [00:24:40] reputation, even if it’s riding away, that wave’s gonna come down, right? And it’s gonna [00:24:45] crash and go boom. And so what we’re looking for is that happy medium of how do you have real [00:24:50] results. That is again, the combination of real life experience and real [00:24:55] expertise, and that’s through both academic research and the real life [00:25:00] experiences times reach.

And for us, reach is just your [00:25:05] ideal audience. That’s your ideal avatar. The whole world doesn’t need to know about you for this to [00:25:10] equal a significant reputation for you. It’s what your person does. Right. And I think one of [00:25:15] the mistakes that I have seen people make. Again, it’s one end of the [00:25:20] spectrum or the other.

Right. And the people who I encounter who are often the best at [00:25:25] what they do, have spent nearly no time building their reach. Mm. [00:25:30] You know why? Because they’ve been building ho, they’ve been busy honing their craft, craft, building [00:25:35] their business, doing the research, doing the deal, and they have spent no time helping [00:25:40] people know about it.

Thus, their reputation is very minimal when it comes to [00:25:45] impact. That’s

Rory: right.

AJ: And to me that’s a travesty because they are the real experts. [00:25:50] No one knows about them and no one is listening to them. And who people are listening to [00:25:55] are the people on the other end of the spectrum who’ve spent all of their time mastering [00:26:00] marketing.

They have spent all their time learning how to make things go viral and becoming really well known for [00:26:05] something. And they lack real expertise. They haven’t done the real thing, they haven’t done the [00:26:10] real research. They haven’t lived the years, they haven’t seen everything, but they’re, they’re telling [00:26:15] something.

They’re preaching something to a huge audience. Is founded [00:26:20] on very few results, and that’s scary.

Rory: Yeah. And I, I [00:26:25] would say a lot of times when people think of Brand Builders Group, sometimes they see like our really well-known [00:26:30] clients and they assume that we only work with people with a lot of reach.

AJ: Yeah.

Rory: And actually [00:26:35] the vast majority of the clients we work with are the opposite.

AJ: Mm-hmm.

Rory: They have all [00:26:40] the results. Very little reach. Uh, that’s, that is most of the, most [00:26:45] of the people that are our members and that we work with are people who spent their life honing their [00:26:50] craft, and now they’re going, they’re waking up to, to, to the reality of what you just said.[00:26:55]

Um, and by the way, if you ever wanna talk to us, if you go to free brand [00:27:00] call.com/podcast, you can request a call with our team and we’ll talk you through this. So, on the results, [00:27:05] or excuse me, the reputation formula. I wanted to, uh, break it down. You [00:27:10] know, we talk about results times reach equals reputation.

Your results, I think are [00:27:15] two, two parts. Your personal results, like your personal track record and then your client’s results. [00:27:20] What results have you been able to help other clients get? And then your reach also [00:27:25] is two parts. And this is a part I really wanna highlight for those of you, um, who [00:27:30] maybe don’t have a huge following.

So

AJ: like me. That’s me.

Rory: Yeah. Yeah. This would be [00:27:35] us. This would would be us. Yeah, for sure. Um, uh, and, and I guess we could say you [00:27:40] directly Yeah. Yeah. So

AJ: this, I’m this category person,

Rory: so if you look at reach, there’s [00:27:45] two groups of reach. There’s direct reach and indirect reach. So your [00:27:50] direct reach is. How many people do you immediately have access to, right?

[00:27:55] It’s you. How many people can you get a message to through your email list, your text message list, [00:28:00] your, your social media, following your podcast, your YouTube channel. That is your direct reach. [00:28:05] You can push a message whenever you want to those people. But what a lot of [00:28:10] the people who have big results.

Have is not [00:28:15] direct reach, but indirect reach. So indirect reach is your ability to get a [00:28:20] message to people through someone you know, through someone who trusts you. [00:28:25] Right? We don’t have a huge direct reach, but we have a [00:28:30] monster indirect reach. We have some of the biggest affiliates in the world. Why?

Because we [00:28:35] helped them get results. Our biggest form of reach [00:28:40] happens not from us growing our audience. Our biggest form of reach happens from creating [00:28:45] results for our clients. And when those clients have reach, they [00:28:50] share that reach with us. And that’s part of why we always say, like in the book, the best form of [00:28:55] marketing in the world is a changed life.

So if you spent all your life getting [00:29:00] results. Don’t, you know, be so heartbroken and be like, oh, I can’t, I can’t do a [00:29:05] huge launch or, or build something quickly. You probably have big indirect reach if [00:29:10] you’ve been investing in relationships.

AJ: Yeah. And I would add maybe perhaps an alternate view to [00:29:15] this, uh, which I think is maybe helpful for some of you who are listening who fit in my category, [00:29:20] which I have a pretty small online reach.

And for some of you who are going, well, I don’t really know if I do. [00:29:25] I wanna go viral. I don’t really know if I wanna invest the time and the energy and the effort to doing [00:29:30] all this online thing. Like, I don’t know that, I don’t know if that fits me. And I would say [00:29:35] then perhaps it doesn’t. Like, perhaps it doesn’t.

And I wanna just touch on the [00:29:40] importance of when we talk about reach, you know, there’s the direct and the indirect.

Rory: Mm-hmm.

AJ: But there’s also [00:29:45] the online and the offline.

Rory: Mm-hmm.

AJ: And we always tell people, [00:29:50] go where your audience is. If your audience doesn’t live [00:29:55] online, whatcha doing on there? Like, whatcha doing online?

Right? There’s some [00:30:00] power. And yes, clearly having an online presence, but if your avatar is [00:30:05] not online and that’s not where you’re looking for them, that’s not where you’re gonna find them. Then [00:30:10] go where they are. And I think we spend a lot of time in marketing in general, [00:30:15] right? Just in the idea of finding leads and building audiences, and we spend [00:30:20] so much of our time talking about the online components that we forget about offline.

Rory: [00:30:25] Mm-hmm.

AJ: And you can build just as much credibility and authority offline than you can [00:30:30] online.

Rory: Yeah, some of the people with the biggest Rolodexes, the highest amount of [00:30:35] influence, the biggest amount of wealth have zero online. Ah. And it’s because they have a [00:30:40] massive offline.

AJ: Yes, and I was gonna say

Rory: reputation

AJ: in the monetization chapter in our [00:30:45] book, wealthy and Well-Known.

Um, I actually did research on this because I was so curious. So I [00:30:50] did a research project on who are the 10. Wealthiest [00:30:55] individuals alive in the world today, and how does that correlate with their online [00:31:00] presence? And of those only seven, or sorry, not, [00:31:05] oh, only seven, didn’t even have an online presence.

Only three had an online presence. [00:31:10] Of which, you know, mark Zuckerberg having a large online presence doesn’t count. He doesn’t count.

Rory: [00:31:15] Yeah.

AJ: He’s everybody’s

Rory: friend. He is gotten to be everybody’s,

AJ: but like seven of them did not [00:31:20] have an online presence.

Rory: Mm-hmm.

AJ: No social media account like they were. Not present [00:31:25] online.

Now, some of that, you know, take with a grain of salt because when they establish their businesses or when the businesses [00:31:30] were established through their families, this wasn’t a thing.

Rory: Yeah.

AJ: Um, so some of that take with a grain of salt, [00:31:35] but nonetheless, I thought it was really interesting of, wow, they have [00:31:40] built.

Offline networks, offline relationships, and they have [00:31:45] quote unquote, gone offline viral because of the networking and [00:31:50] the relationship building and the years and years of the showing up at the [00:31:55] nonprofit events, the networking meetings, the board meetings, uh, being present in the [00:32:00] community, being available to their clients.

They have built incredible brands for [00:32:05] their businesses and incredible impact and incredible income with zero online [00:32:10] presence. That too is possible for us today.

Rory: Yep. Yeah, so [00:32:15] you got, there’s different types of reach. There is, um, [00:32:20] different types of results and those are probably people who’ve delivered results for lots of other people.

And even though they [00:32:25] don’t have an online presence, they probably still have some type of a direct platform. They have thousands of employees, [00:32:30] customer lists, referral partners, uh, et cetera. Yeah. So, [00:32:35] so I’m curious for you. Okay. So. [00:32:40] You are, have never been impressed by celebrities, you’ve never been [00:32:45] drawn to how many followers this somebody has.

Like [00:32:50] you. It’s, it’s, it’s almost ironic that we’re in this business. I mean, when people really understand what we do, it’s not [00:32:55] because we really serve the real experts.

AJ: I was gonna say, it’s not ironic at all because the person we serve. [00:33:00] Is the person we once were, which is the person who’s just trying to make a larger [00:33:05] impact with what they’re doing.

Rory: Mm-hmm.

AJ: Not to become famous, not to go viral. That’s who [00:33:10] we serve.

Rory: Mm-hmm.

AJ: But what was your question? Sorry.

Rory: Well, my question was just like, why are you [00:33:15] not impressed at all with [00:33:20] celebrity fame followers? Or, or why do you think, what do you think [00:33:25] is different about you from like. Is that like a conscious [00:33:30] thing that you do, or is that just like innate or do you think like other, other people are, [00:33:35] you know, they, they think of it in a way or like you just, you just don’t have that like, oh, [00:33:40] I can’t that per, like you don’t fan girl at all over anyone ever.

AJ: [00:33:45] But I never have. So I think there was a part of me that was just born that way. I think [00:33:50] there was a part of me that I was raised in a entrepreneurial family where my grandfather [00:33:55] started, uh, a construction business. Then my dad took it over and my brothers are taking it over. And it was [00:34:00] just very hardcore ingrained in our being of like, success [00:34:05] comes from hard work.

And I think that was from my grandfather to my dad to [00:34:10] us. And there was, there was a, uh. A [00:34:15] consistent message in our house of like, success comes from hard work. And so I think some [00:34:20] of it stems from that, and I think some of it was God’s divine blessing over my life. [00:34:25] Um, knowing

Rory: what does impress you? Like, what is what, what are [00:34:30] then the things that you, as a consumer or a business partner or a [00:34:35] referral partner, what are the things that do, are appealing to [00:34:40] you or that you go.

Wow, this is, this is what impresses me, overcomers. [00:34:45]

AJ: Like, uh, I think this is a great example. So Rory and I share an executive life [00:34:50] coach, um, and he was our former pastor. And when he left the church, [00:34:55] when he left his pastoral work, um, we kind of lost touch for years. [00:35:00] And this was back in 2021, which was probably.

We call it the dark years. These [00:35:05] are the dark years. Um, but these were like some of the hardest years of my adult life. Like it was a [00:35:10] really dark place for me, the dark years. Um, and I finally like come to the conclusion. I’m [00:35:15] like, I need like a real life coach. Like I tried the counseling thing and [00:35:20] I was like, like, this is not what I’m looking for.

Like I need, I need. Some guidance. [00:35:25] And when I started researching and interviewing different firms and different coaches, [00:35:30] I got referred to all these places and I won’t recommend them, or I won’t mention them. It’s not that I don’t [00:35:35] recommend them, I just didn’t go with them because here’s what I found through every single one of those interviews [00:35:40] and every single one of those vetting processes as everyone was shouting their accolades.[00:35:45]

Rory: Hmm.

AJ: And I immediately thought to myself like [00:35:50] that, I can’t even be honest with them. I can even share with them what I’m trying to [00:35:55] do in our business and where I’m struggling because they have it all together [00:36:00] and it was like very well known, prominent firms and different coaching [00:36:05] programs. And I’m like, I don’t relate.

They’re in these high seasons of life with these [00:36:10] huge exits or these amazing processes and they have it all together and it’s like, I feel like a [00:36:15] big hot mess. And I, I don’t even wanna tell them how I [00:36:20] feel or what our struggles are. And then I came across our former pastor’s [00:36:25] profile, uh, and I knew his story of the, you know, falling from the [00:36:30] mountaintops and the, you know, road back to redemption.[00:36:35]

And for the first time I’m like, oh no, that’s, that’s what I need. Like, I need [00:36:40] someone who’s like, oh no, I’ve been there. Like I, I was on top of the wave. [00:36:45] I rode it and I fell crashing to the ground, and there’s light at the end of that [00:36:50] tunnel. So it’s the overcomer story that really impresses me of the person [00:36:55] who persevered, who didn’t give up, who figured it out when there didn’t seem to be a way, when odds [00:37:00] were against them.

And I think that’s what really impresses me the most and why I love who we [00:37:05] get to work with at Brand Builders Group is it’s the, uh, unassuming, [00:37:10] it’s the humble, it’s the person who’s doing this because there’s a calling on their life. They can’t not do it, [00:37:15] and it’s because they don’t want fame. It’s like, no, I wanna make a difference.

[00:37:20] Uh, I don’t wanna be famous. And I think, I think that is what impresses me most, is [00:37:25] like they’re changing lives because they can just help people. Not that famous [00:37:30] people don’t change lives. They most certainly do. But I think that’s what impresses me. And when we decided on our [00:37:35] executive life coach, it was a very decided decision of like, no, I need someone who [00:37:40] has been humbled, who fell and worked their way back up, who had to start over and [00:37:45] who had to refine their, you know, their graces and re get in touch [00:37:50] with.

And I was like, that’s what I needed. Right? And that’s what I needed. And there was a level of [00:37:55] comfort in knowing that this person. Wasn’t afraid to share that story. And all these [00:38:00] other executive bios, it was just accolade after accolade after accolade. And I felt [00:38:05] intimidated. And I was like, not them, not them.

Uh, I’m, I, I don’t even measure up. [00:38:10] Like I would be embarrassed to tell them what’s going on. And so I [00:38:15] think that’s, I think that’s a really important part of this idea of building real [00:38:20] credibility is that you’re really honest with the wins and the losses. Because I think [00:38:25] the losses attract a, a different grouping of people who go, yeah, me too.

Can you help me through [00:38:30] this?

Rory: Yeah. I’ve been inspired by your, your [00:38:35] encouragement for people to share the hard parts of their story and that that’s really like, [00:38:40] um, nobody ever shows up after your speech and says, I was so impressed by all your accolades, [00:38:45] but when you, when you say, this is what I struggled with.

AJ: Yeah.

Rory: People come out of the woodwork [00:38:50] and I think. In a world of technological [00:38:55] perfection in an artificial world, like the more [00:39:00] artificial the world becomes, the more our humanness is our [00:39:05] uniqueness. And I think that’s what you’re talking about. Yeah. And I think it’s just, you know, that [00:39:10] authenticity is, is a big, a big part.

AJ: Well, and I think credibility comes from knowing [00:39:15] like, yeah, I fail too. Like that doesn’t mean you give up. And I think that’s [00:39:20] where a lot of the authority comes from. Um, so one of the things that we wanna do right now, this is one of our [00:39:25] favorite segments of the show, is this is where we get to take a question from our community at [00:39:30] Brand Builders Group.

So those are members, uh, who are part of the community at Brand Builders Group, and they get to submit [00:39:35] questions. And our team picks a question that we’re gonna answer live for you [00:39:40] today. So, Rory. What’s the question?

Rory: Question comes from Olivia m Hi Olivia. M [00:39:45] Olivia says, I’m getting decent engagement online, but it’s not [00:39:50] translating into premium clients.

How do you become the obvious [00:39:55] choice instead of just another choice or creator that people [00:40:00] watch?

AJ: Hmm. How do you become the obvious

Rory: choice? Choice? [00:40:05] And she’s, she’s, she’s mentioning premium clients, which I think is an interesting part of [00:40:10] this question.

AJ: Yeah. So I guess defining what premium is, and to me that would just be your ideal [00:40:15] client, right?

The premium client is the person that you most want to work with, right? It’s [00:40:20] the center of the bullseye. Like, this is the person I’m going after. That’s how I interpret that.

Rory: Okay. Then [00:40:25] you answer that. ’cause I interpret it differently and I’ll answer it the other way.

AJ: Yeah. So I think when I, when you’re attracting [00:40:30] leads and they’re not converting well, I think there’s a lot of.

Speculation into [00:40:35] what that really means. Yeah. It’s like are you growing your followers, but they’re not converting into calls? [00:40:40] And one of my questions to that would be, well, do you ask them to, like, do you have any calls to action? [00:40:45] Like if this is an online conversion conversation. I think where a lot of people miss the boat [00:40:50] is they forget to actually have a call to action.

Rory: Yeah.

AJ: Like we forget to tell people what we want [00:40:55] them to do. Right. And so if you have leads that are. Showing up in the ecosystem, [00:41:00] it’s are you actually directing them to do something?

Rory: Yeah.

AJ: Right. And so, because she’s

Rory: saying she gets [00:41:05] engagement, but she’s not necessarily saying she’s getting leads.

AJ: So I think that would be my first thing [00:41:10] is like, are you actually giving them a clear, decisive call to action?

Are you telling them what to [00:41:15] do next? Mm-hmm. We assume people know they don’t. We have to tell [00:41:20] people this is what you do next. Right? You request a free call with our team. You [00:41:25] follow us here, you subscribe here, you download this thing. Like you have to tell [00:41:30] them what to do. And it’s not one time. It’s all the time.

Rory: Yeah. And I would, [00:41:35] I would say that a big mistake that people make with their social strategy is they kind of go [00:41:40] from someone saw me to, I’m gonna sell them something. And there’s [00:41:45] all of these steps, a few steps in between, right? So first. First, there’s [00:41:50] engagement. Then they become a lead. You capture them, then there has to be [00:41:55] trust, then there is a transaction.

Right? So just because I saw your video [00:42:00] that went viral and it was 60 seconds doesn’t mean I’m gonna buy from you. It’s you gotta give them that [00:42:05] next step, that clear call to action. Now they’re a lead. Then I have to have some trust [00:42:10] accelerating experience, and then I have to have a process for them to actually become a [00:42:15] customer.

Mm-hmm. And if you’re just trying to go from engagement to premium client. That, that breakdown, and a [00:42:20] lot of people make that mistake right now.

AJ: So I would say it’s probably one of those two things. You’re getting [00:42:25] engagement, I’m assuming you’re talking about online, and there’s rather not a clear. Call to action, [00:42:30] or you’re missing one of those trust building conversion steps in between engagement and [00:42:35] customer.

Rory: And our call to action would be to you that if at any point you want to [00:42:40] talk to our team about how we might be able to coach you and encourage you to get to the next level with building [00:42:45] your personal brand. Driving more warm, more warm leads for your business, uh, accelerating your [00:42:50] impact. Go to free brand call.com/podcast, free brand [00:42:55] call.com/podcast and we’re just gonna wanna hear your story and see if we could be a [00:43:00] match to help you take the next step.

Uh, outside of that, keep coming back to the [00:43:05] podcast, wealthy and well known. We’re so honored to have you as part of the community. If you haven’t yet, [00:43:10] please go leave us. A rating or a review wherever you listen to the show and [00:43:15] share this episode with somebody who you think would be encouraged by it, and we’ll [00:43:20] catch you next time on Wealthy and Well [00:43:25] [00:43:30] [00:43:35] Known.

WWK Ep 110: Faith, Focus, and the Power of Being Known: Lessons from a $1.5B Real Estate Leader – Dana Gentry 

Dana: [00:00:00] I remember going to the doctor and they. Prescribed me Xanax at [00:00:05] 16 years old. Whoa. And I struggled for a couple [00:00:10] of years. Really? Everywhere I went I had to, you know, take something, which is so not like [00:00:15] me ’cause I barely even take Tylenol today. But then it just, I mean I became hooked on it [00:00:20] and I uh, I really, really struggled because I was in such a deep place.

’cause I was having [00:00:25] such horrible panic attacks. I remember one time being in Panera and I just. Had a, if [00:00:30] anybody listening has ever had a panic attack, you know, but like, it just, like everything closes in on you and you just [00:00:35] have to get out, you know? And it was just horrible. I couldn’t fly, I couldn’t do all these things, and God [00:00:40] really, no pun intended, totally restored me like he healed me.

I went cold Turkey one day. I stopped [00:00:45] taking the pills and just my life was. I had always been in church, but God totally just restored [00:00:50] and healed my life.[00:00:55] [00:01:00] [00:01:05]

Rory: Hey friends. Welcome back to the Wealthy and Well-Known podcast. I’m so excited to [00:01:10] introduce you to someone who’s become a dear friend of mine, someone that I respect as a colleague [00:01:15] and a professional. I have the opportunity to serve her as a client. Our team does. I think [00:01:20] she is one of the, the, the fastest rising stars in the world of personal [00:01:25] development and building a personal brand.

But she is no stranger to success. She is [00:01:30] one of the top people at Keller Williams and has been for years. Her team closes [00:01:35] get this 1.5 billion with the B dollars in [00:01:40] annual transactions. Uh, she’s worked directly with Gary Keller. Um, she’s been a [00:01:45] part of their team. She runs one of the, uh. Co-host one of the top real estate [00:01:50] podcasts in the world.

It’s called Everything Life in Real Estate. It’s a top 1% [00:01:55] podcast that she co-host with Linda McKissick. Um, she is the author of this new book, [00:02:00] restore 90 Days of Intentional Living, which we’re gonna talk about. She’s [00:02:05] also in John Maxwell’s high capacity leadership mentorship program. So she mentors [00:02:10] directly with John, uh, who also is a friend of mine.

I actually just got to speak to their group. [00:02:15] And this woman is just on the move and we’re gonna talk about today all things about how to [00:02:20] use your personal brand to drive leads for your business, grow any type [00:02:25] of business specifically, uh, professional services and advisory of any type. And then talk a [00:02:30] little bit about her faith journey and her setbacks and how she’s gotten to be [00:02:35] everything that she has become.

So Dana. Welcome to the show friend.

Dana: Thank you so much [00:02:40] for having me. That was quite the intro. Thank you.

Rory: Yes. So one of the things [00:02:45] that I love about Brand Builders Group, which I don’t think enough people understand [00:02:50] yet, is when people hear Brand Builders Group or they hear personal branding, they go, oh, [00:02:55] I have to be a coach to work with you guys, or I have to be a speaker, or I have to be a consultant.[00:03:00]

And I always am frustrated. I’m like, no more than 50% of our [00:03:05] clients are professional services.

Dana: Yeah.

Rory: They’re people in real estate. They’re financial advisors, they’re [00:03:10] lawyers, they’re doctors like their accountants. How much has [00:03:15] building a personal brand mattered, do you think, in your. [00:03:20] Your actual business.

Your real business. You make your money in, in real estate.

Dana: Yeah.

Rory: How much has [00:03:25] been h had a, having a personal brand mattered in that journey?

Dana: It has been huge. And all I can see. When you [00:03:30] say that, Rory, are the personal brands trends that you guys put out, like every slide I [00:03:35] can, I have, I think I have the whole entire thing memorized because I really felt blessed that I [00:03:40] started this kind of early on, I was an early adopter of building a brand and [00:03:45] now it’s, you know.

It’s it, I mean, if you don’t have it, no matter what industry and your [00:03:50] trends show that, whether you’re a doctor, a lawyer, a real estate professional, whatever it is that you look like, everyone wants to [00:03:55] know that you have a personal brain because they wanna see if they align with you or not. And I feel like [00:04:00] specifically in real estate.

I’ve seen a lot of realtors or or real estate [00:04:05] brokerage owners even, they just get stuck in that transaction, like the day-to-day transaction and now [00:04:10] they’re slower and they haven’t adapted and they haven’t built a brand or they haven’t adopted to social media [00:04:15] like they should have. And they’re wondering why their business is changing.

And I’m unlike you guys, it, I [00:04:20] mean, it is what it, this is the new world like it. People wanna know who they’re working with [00:04:25] on a deeper level. And your trends really were what completely changed the game for me when I saw [00:04:30] that.

Rory: Yeah, the data’s very clear and compelling.

Dana: Very clear. [00:04:35]

Rory: So let’s talk about real estate specifically.

Although, you know, most people watching this are probably not in [00:04:40] real estate. I’m sure several are. Yeah. But a lot of people are entrepreneurs.

Dana: Totally.

Rory: But I just want to [00:04:45] hear, in real estate specifically, what do you think [00:04:50] the, the people who are building a personal brand in real estate are doing? Right.[00:04:55]

Yeah. And what are the, what are the the things they’re doing wrong when they’re trying to build their personal brand?

Dana: [00:05:00] Okay. And I think this could be really, like you said, with anybody that’s an entrepreneur, but specifically in real estate. I [00:05:05] think the ones that are doing it right, and I have so many that pop into my head.

They’re being real. [00:05:10] They’re being consistent. They’re being authentic. They are, um, not [00:05:15] making it all about business. They’re showing things that they like to do, the values that they [00:05:20] have, things that matter to them. They’re going really hyper-local and they’re branding themselves, almost [00:05:25] like niching themselves in really hyper-local to where they sell,

Rory: um, like [00:05:30] geographically.

Dana: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I have, um, one of my top agents, his name’s [00:05:35] Roger Wilcott in Columbus, Ohio. He is in my Columbus office. He has niched himself. His [00:05:40] brand is incredible. He’s niched himself so deep into this one condo building that he actually lives [00:05:45] in. But I mean, he’ll, you know, he’s 1,000,002 million GCI agent a year.

He’ll [00:05:50] do

Rory: most commissionable

Dana: income. Income. GCI. Yep. You got it. Yeah. And he, it is because he [00:05:55] has built his brand. He has three golden retrievers. He, they are part of his [00:06:00] brand. I mean, it’s all the things that. You know, people think about when they think about you, like you’ve [00:06:05] taught us. I think the ones that are doing it wrong are posting, sold [00:06:10] another, just closed, had another, you know, worked with this client.

Like they, they aren’t [00:06:15] getting it, that people wanna know about them and what they’re into. They just, it, [00:06:20] they’re, they’re transactional still. Um, if that makes sense.

Rory: So when you, when you were [00:06:25] describing this story, what’s his name? Roger. Roger. Roger? Yeah. We talk about Sheehan’s wall. [00:06:30]

Dana: Yes.

Rory: And how the way to break through is not to try have multiple streams of income or be known by [00:06:35] everybody to, but, but to be known and master like one very small group.

Yeah. So you’re talking about [00:06:40] a real life story of this guy has made over a million dollars a year.

Dana: Yes. [00:06:45]

Rory: Niching down, not a state. A county, a town or a neighborhood, [00:06:50] like a

Dana: block.

Rory: But you’re talking about one block.

Dana: Yes.

Rory: But it’s like if you’re interested in that block.

Dana: [00:06:55] Yep. The

Rory: this is that guy.

Dana: He’s the guy.

Yeah, totally. And I will say, one thing I wanna touch on on that, I [00:07:00] remember when I very first started with brand builders and I was going through this, she hands wall and [00:07:05] kind of working through that and it’s. It’s like a mind trip for a lot of [00:07:10] entrepreneurs, at least in our world, because we are taught you need to have seven streams of income.[00:07:15]

So, you know, at first I was like, wait,

Rory: I know when I, when I stand in front of real estate audiences and I’m like, [00:07:20] multiple streams of income is not how you get rich. Yes. Everybody goes,

Dana: oh yes.

Rory: Like they don’t, that’s like, why can’t believe you [00:07:25] said that?

Dana: But it’s so true though, because, and that’s not to say that later, you can’t have them

later,

Dana: but if you [00:07:30] don’t go deep and master the one thing first.

Like I’ve been guilty of that. I know [00:07:35] one of the things we’re gonna talk about are struggles I’ve had, like buying more offices and trying to do this and [00:07:40] trying to do that to have all these different streams of income when really I’m chasing all these things and none of them were [00:07:45] success. Like none of them were great instead of just like going all in on one.

So that [00:07:50] was an interesting part that I kind of had to rewire my brain around, but it’s so true.

Rory: Well, [00:07:55] I’m glad you didn’t get mad at me when you first heard it and you’re so potable. No, I thought

Dana: Gary might though.

Rory: Yeah, I [00:08:00] know. Well, you know Gary Keller. I remember when, when I had a pre-event call. [00:08:05] ’cause that’s, I think that’s how we met first, right?

Was when I spoke at Keller Williams National Convention.

Dana: Yes. I followed you and [00:08:10] studied your stuff for a long time. So when they brought you in, I was like, yes, this is it.

Rory: When [00:08:15] Gary got on the pre-event call, I was like, I can’t believe that Keller [00:08:20] Williams wants me to talk about building a personal brand.

Dana: Yeah.

Rory: And I was so scared because [00:08:25] I’m like, I’m like Gary. Don’t you want people to like build the Keller [00:08:30] Williams brand? Mm-hmm. And he was like, no,

Dana: no, he never has.

Rory: Like, I almost thought it was like, do you realize that [00:08:35] who, that your team has brought in to speak? Yeah. And what I’m talking about. And he was like, no, that’s why I brought you here.

Yeah. [00:08:40] I don’t want my people to build a Keller Williams brand. I want them to build their own brand.

Dana: Yeah. That [00:08:45] is the sole reason why I joined Keller Williams. Really because, and not to say anything negative, but [00:08:50] I was with a company before re max and REM Max is great. I have tons of friend friends at REM Max, but it [00:08:55] was about.

Re max in the balloon. And I remember when I came to Keller Williams, when I went to [00:09:00] the first training, like I heard, it’s about you. You should build your brand. Because on the real estate side, [00:09:05] clients, over 80% of them don’t know the brokerage that their realtor is with. They only know their [00:09:10] realtor. So if you aren’t branding yourself, which again goes back to our initial conversation of why this is [00:09:15] so impactful and so important for real estate professionals.

They don’t really care who you’re [00:09:20] with. And I say that as a brokerage owner with 600 agents. As brokerage owners, we just have to give the [00:09:25] most value to our agents because the brand really isn’t it. It’s the brand is [00:09:30] about the realtor, them themselves specifically.

Rory: Amen. I mean, the same would be true if you’re [00:09:35] financial advisor.

It’s like, totally. I don’t care if you’re with Morgan Stanley or like, I don’t even understand what any of that stuff [00:09:40] is. I’m just like. Okay. Like Chris is, Chris is my guy, and I’m like, I trust Chris.

Dana: Totally. [00:09:45]

Rory: Same with a dentist. Yeah. It’s like, I don’t know where you went to school. I don’t know like what [00:09:50] your, who, who does your certifications?

I’m just like, do I like you? Yeah. Right. Do I trust you? It, it, [00:09:55] it’s, it is so, it’s so personal. Yeah.

Dana: It’s

Rory: um. So that’s really encouraging [00:10:00] to me. You’re such a great example. 600 agents you have.

Dana: Mm-hmm. [00:10:05] Yeah. All. Although Keller Williams people joke and say, I am the brand builders poster child [00:10:10] because I teach your, I talk about it and teach it in everything because I really believe [00:10:15] Rory so many, again, real estate specific, but then I’m sure this applies to [00:10:20] everyone.

I really think so many are gonna wake up in three years and be like. Oh crap. I, [00:10:25] I really missed the boat on this. Um, and Gary has taught us a saying [00:10:30] anytime there’s a shift in the market, which right now. There is a shift in the market. I mean, you know, the market is, [00:10:35] has shifted already. We are already in a shift.

Buyers finally have said, whoa, wait a minute. I’m not gonna [00:10:40] pay that for that house. Like that’s crazy. So it’s kind of shifted the market around. But Gary always says [00:10:45] anytime there’s a shift, there will be agents that gain market share that they keep forever and there will be [00:10:50] other agents that lose market share that they never get back.

Rory: Mm.

Dana: And I’ve been teaching all of my agents [00:10:55] right now, I think brand personal branding and marketing truly is. Is that [00:11:00] differentiator between that shift? Like if they aren’t leaning in on that, they’re gonna look up after this shift and [00:11:05] say, oh crap, I wish I would have, because I’ve lost market share to the people who are [00:11:10] showing up and are building a brand.

Because another fun fact, the average consumer right [00:11:15] now can name eight realtors off the top of their head. Totally. So if you aren’t number one, I [00:11:20] mean, and maybe more than that in bigger cities like, you know, Nashville or Charleston or Columbus or [00:11:25] wherever. I mean, everybody has a, everybody is a realtor almost.

So if you aren’t building [00:11:30] the brand and you aren’t the first one that they name, then what does it matter? I mean

Rory: Yeah, [00:11:35] that’s totally true. I mean, ’cause everybody, you know, people come and go out of it, real estate with [00:11:40] lots of professions, you know, and, and you go, a lot of it is. I think of [00:11:45] whoever I’ve seen most recently.

Dana: That’s right.

Rory: Right. And so it used to just be like, oh, I forgot and I saw [00:11:50] someone at a Christmas party or birthday party. I’m like, oh yeah, they, I, they could sell my house. But it’s like with. [00:11:55] Social and content marketing. Yeah. It’s like you, people can see you every day.

Dana: Yep, [00:12:00] totally. Well, we used to say it would be like, oh, I still have your magnet on my fridge from seven years ago.

[00:12:05] You know, and so I’ll call you now. But that’s not the case. I mean, they’re looking at who’s telling their [00:12:10] story the loudest on social media.

Rory: So, okay. Honest question here. Honest [00:12:15] question. So, so you were very, very successful way before you found us, [00:12:20] but you’ve been. A very steadfast client of brand builders group.

[00:12:25] Mm-hmm. Why would you invest to learn from [00:12:30] us And has it, or how has it been helpful to you? Yeah. [00:12:35] Since you were already successful, but like you’re going, you’re still [00:12:40] investing and learning this stuff. Why, why are you doing that at your level [00:12:45] and. How has it been useful to, to someone even at, I [00:12:50] guess like at your, your advanced level in your business?

Well,

Dana: I mean, easy answer for me. Number one, [00:12:55] you said the word, I see it as an investment, not as an expense, and I think. Even a lot of [00:13:00] semis, successsful to successful entrepreneurs are afraid to spend money on stuff, [00:13:05] or they won’t. They don’t. They see it as an expense instead of an investment into yourself.

And [00:13:10] sometimes it’s hard to measure that, right? Like you can’t say, oh, I have this specific ROI because I’ve been [00:13:15] doing this. But you just have to think like. I’m not in this for the next three or five years, like I’m doing this [00:13:20] for a lifetime. And that to me,

Rory: Chris, can we get the lifetime agreement? Can we get out the [00:13:25] lifetime contract?

She’s ready. She’s

Dana: perfect. Okay, perfect. [00:13:30] But it’s true because I just don’t see it going away. I mean, for. Well, to [00:13:35] be honest, Roy and transparent, you know, to own real estate brokerages and to also want to build my brand and [00:13:40] do other things like the books and speaking and things, I still have to be attractive.

My job right [00:13:45] now is to recruit realtors to my brokerage. I mean, that’s at the end of the day, you know, I’m, I wanna [00:13:50] impact all of their lives and I want us to grow. And so. I, I wanna continue to build my [00:13:55] brand and be known so that these other agents in central Kentucky, Lexington, and surrounding areas [00:14:00] in Columbus, Ohio look up and say, wow, if I wanna grow my real estate career and if I wanna be in it for the [00:14:05] long haul, and I wanna be getting the best of the best of the best, like I gotta be in Dana Gentry’s [00:14:10] offices.

Mm. And unless I’m building my brand and continuing to invest in myself, then you know, [00:14:15] they’re not gonna do that. It’s the way that I look at it. But brand builders specifically, [00:14:20] you all your content is so. Rich. I mean, you can [00:14:25] like there, I mean, I’ve been almost two years now and, and I’m, I mean, I’m pretty [00:14:30] in it.

Like I, I mean, you know, I’m got my causal through, like I’m pretty in it, but I feel like I’ve [00:14:35] barely scratched the surface sometimes. Like it’s just the content is so rich [00:14:40] and if you at all are lost, even if you’re successful, but you’re lost [00:14:45] in like, okay, how do I even build my, you just, it’s baby steps like the whole way through [00:14:50] and.

I mean, it’s just the best I tell everybody. And I love getting my [00:14:55] little monthly income coming in because I’m like, you need to be with Brain Builders and you need to be with Brain Builders because [00:15:00] I really do believe it. I mean, I’m not gonna say something, you know, that I don’t believe, but it just has impacted me so [00:15:05] much.

And I, Rory had success, but I didn’t know how to chunk it down [00:15:10] into what I now know my four pillars are that have led to two decades of success. Mm. [00:15:15] And I’d never heard of an expert bio in my life. I mean, there’s just so many things.

Rory: [00:15:20] Terms.

Dana: Yeah. It’s just, there’s so many things and I’m like, but what’s happened is with each [00:15:25] step that I’ve learned, it’s worked.

I mean, my following, not that the number matters. I know in the [00:15:30] data the, you say the numbers, the follower number doesn’t matter, but I have seen my [00:15:35] followers grow. I have seen my offices grow. I have seen the level of people that I’ve been able to attract. [00:15:40] In fact, you’ll crack up over this. I don’t know if we wanna say this on here or not, but [00:15:45] I just had a huge team join one of my offices in Kentucky.

Um, I’ve known him for [00:15:50] years. He’s been a friend of mine and he just joined in part from a

Rory: different brokerage.

Dana: From a different brokerage. [00:15:55] Yes. He just joined. Wow. Yeah. They do about 25 million a year in volume in central Kentucky. He’s a great, great guy. [00:16:00] Such a great team. Our negotiation, part of what I am providing for [00:16:05] him is 12 months of a brand builders contract.

Wow. He, he asked for that and I was like, [00:16:10] what’s making you ask for that? And he’s like, honestly, I’ve just seen what it’s done for you. You talk about it all the time [00:16:15] and I want it to be part of my deal. And I was like. Okay. And what can you say? Because [00:16:20] he’s following exactly what I’ve been, what

Rory: you’re doing.

Dana: Yeah. So I’m like, perfect. [00:16:25] So they actually joined on Monday, just this week. They transferred their licenses. So he’s like, when do I get [00:16:30] to start my brand builder stuff? I’m like, I’ll get it, I’ll get it.

Rory: That’s awesome, Dan.

Dana: But I believe it. I mean, it’s, it works. [00:16:35]

Rory: Well, one, you know, and it’s not just us, right?

You’re, you’re in [00:16:40] mentorship with John Maxwell. Oh yeah. I know you’ve done several of my

Dana: friends. Well, you have to have, have an investment mindset, period. I mean, personal [00:16:45] growth. If John has taught me, if you, the, the, um, oh, what does he always say? He [00:16:50] says, you will never regret investing in your personal growth.

Like never ever, ever. Like, [00:16:55] there’s no amount of money. There’s no amount of time. Because when you get better, everybody gets better.

Rory: I’ve always [00:17:00] been fascinated be that. Like, when I first heard about personal development, you know, I’d have people who were like, oh, [00:17:05] those people are just like trying to take money from you, or they’re scamming you, or whatever.

And so I thought when I would [00:17:10] go to an event, it would be like all the like really needy, desperate, broke [00:17:15] people. No, it’s all the like, it’s the opposite. Yeah. It’s people like you and you’re like, oh my gosh.

Dana: Yeah.

Rory: It’s [00:17:20] like, and the more you pay,

Dana: the better

Rory: it gets, the better the quality of the person is [00:17:25] that’s there and you’re like, oh.

It’s the opposite of that. Yeah. And you go, oh, that’s, [00:17:30] that’s why they are there. Yeah. Because these are the people who have invested the most in themselves.

Dana: [00:17:35] Yeah.

Rory: And um,

Dana: people used to, I used to say in one of my. Um, talks that I would [00:17:40] do, I would say, I would talk a little bit about being intentional with investing in yourself, and I would say from stage, you know, Adam and [00:17:45] I spend six figures a year on personal development, and we do, and people would be like, I could just see [00:17:50] their faces and I would think, am I losing them?

Because I was never saying it from like a, oh, [00:17:55] we can afford it. We’re, you know, nothing like that. I was trying to say we believe in it so much and [00:18:00] we’ve seen the return so much that we put it in our budget to make sure that we’re investing in [00:18:05] ourselves.

Rory: Sure. I, I mean, and that’s, um, I mean it shows, [00:18:10]

Dana: yeah,

Rory: it shows and, and as a leader, separate from like building a [00:18:15] personal brand and separate from your own performance.

One of the things [00:18:20] that I always think of as a leader is my job is to learn.

Dana: Mm-hmm.

Rory: [00:18:25] Because the more I learn, the more valuable I am to my team.

Dana: Totally.

Rory: Right. The more I can [00:18:30] develop the people around me, the more I can bring them opportunities. Yeah. The more that we invent and [00:18:35] create things that provide infrastructure.

Mm-hmm. And so it’s not just an investment in [00:18:40] yourself. People talk about that, which it certainly is. Yeah. But it’s also. An investment in yourself is an [00:18:45] investment in your team.

Dana: Yeah.

Rory: Because of who you become as a leader.

Dana: Yeah. Well, you’ll, [00:18:50] um. Understand this, but so I obviously am a person of faith and a [00:18:55] believer and so I look at leadership as stewardship.

Rory: Mm-hmm.

Dana: And so I really [00:19:00] believe that, you know, God has given me these people and these agents and these brokerages and whoever on [00:19:05] Instagram, whatever, to like to steward. And so, amen. I don’t feel like I [00:19:10] can steward them well if I’m not constantly learning and growing and making myself better. [00:19:15] I feel like I would be, you know, I don’t know.

I just feel like that’s not the right thing to do as a [00:19:20] leader, especially when you look at it from a stewardship perspective.

Rory: So, yeah, let’s talk, let’s [00:19:25] go there for a little bit. Yeah. Because your faith, you know, is a, has been a big part of your life. Yeah, and I think, [00:19:30] you know, you and Adam are very successful, great reputation, [00:19:35] obviously, incredible team results, all of that.

Was there a time like, [00:19:40] take me back to when it wasn’t that. Yeah, like take me back to the time when you, [00:19:45] was there ever a time where you were experiencing self-doubt or like when you were going through [00:19:50] struggles? And what did that look like? Yeah. And, you know, walk us [00:19:55] through some of that.

Dana: Totally. 100%. So I was not a good student.

I did not [00:20:00] like school. Um, in high school I had a weird kind of series of events [00:20:05] where I was, um, two people that were close to me. I had two separate times, both got killed in car [00:20:10] accidents.

Rory: Wow.

Dana: Friends of mine. And it kind of gave me, it really sent me into Rory. Like, [00:20:15] what? Just panic. Like I had horrible panic attacks.

Horrible anxiety [00:20:20] attacks. And at the time I was only 17, 16, 17 years old. And so I remember going to the [00:20:25] doctor and they, you know, they prescribed me Xanax at 16 years old.

Rory: Whoa. [00:20:30]

Dana: And I struggled for a couple of years. [00:20:35] Really? I mean, a lot. Like, I, I could not get off of it. I mean, I just, everywhere I went, [00:20:40] I had to, you know.

Take something, which is so not like me ’cause I barely even take Tylenol today. [00:20:45] But then it just, I mean I became hooked on it and I uh, I really, really [00:20:50] struggled because I was in such a deep place. ’cause I was having such horrible panic attacks. I remember one [00:20:55] time being in Panera and I just had a pain, if anybody listening has ever had a panic attack, you know, [00:21:00] but like, it just, like everything closes in on you and you just have to get out, you know?

And it was [00:21:05] just horrible. I couldn’t fly, I couldn’t do all these things. And God really, no pun [00:21:10] intended, totally restored me like he healed me. I went cold Turkey one day. I stopped taking, [00:21:15] um, the pills and just my life was, I had always been in church, but God [00:21:20] totally just restored and healed my life. Then.

And when I look back, it’s interesting [00:21:25] to see kind of how my life was. Then I, I didn’t graduate college, I went to college. I [00:21:30] dropped outta college. I got my real estate license. And, um, I used to be so embarrassed to [00:21:35] tell people that I didn’t have a college degree. I mean, I would go in these rooms with all these, you know.

People [00:21:40] and they would be like, I grad, where’d you graduate from? I graduated from here. I graduated from there. And I’m like, uh, I didn’t, I never [00:21:45] graduated. I dropped out.

Rory: Hmm.

Dana: Um, you know, and so it’s just funny, those things that you carry [00:21:50] along with you, but I’ve been able to just look at every turn. [00:21:55] Like, God put the exact person in my life at the exact time from the person that said, [00:22:00] you’d be great in real estate.

You should get your real estate license. Um, you know, just to then, oh, you should talk to [00:22:05] somebody at Keller Williams. Like, every single thing has just been lined up and it definitely was [00:22:10] not always, were you

Rory: always close to God or like going back to that like whole sort of Xanax season, did you. [00:22:15] Did you pray for that intervention like that?

Because that’s like, like a cold

Dana: Turkey stuff. [00:22:20] I was like a, I mean, I went to church my whole life growing up, but I don’t know, you [00:22:25] know, I don’t, I wasn’t like deep in the Bible or anything as it then, I mean, I would, like, I [00:22:30] went to youth group and stuff like that. Um, but I was, I, I knew enough to pray, to [00:22:35] pray about it, you know, to be like, okay, God, the only way I’m gonna get better and get off of this, or do, you know, [00:22:40] get to live a normal life is if you heal me.

So I just remember I would like. I would try to read my [00:22:45] Bible and then I would really pray about it and then, but I was such a, I mean, I was a kid at the time, but [00:22:50] yeah, and I just think, I don’t know, I’m so grateful because it’s like God has [00:22:55] just kind of swooped me along every single thing that has ever [00:23:00] happened.

It’s just, I don’t know. It’s just, yeah, it’s such a blessing.

Rory: Mm-hmm. [00:23:05] Is there anything when you look back that you go, Hmm, I should have done that [00:23:10] differently? And specifically in the, in the realm of like, [00:23:15] reputation and sort of like personal brand building. Mm-hmm. Or, or, or that [00:23:20] because, um, you know, again, it’s interesting to hear where you started.

Look at where [00:23:25] you are now.

Dana: Yeah.

Rory: But I, I, I’m thinking about the people who are [00:23:30] in the more of the struggle.

Dana: Yep.

Rory: Right? Like somebody is listening right now who is [00:23:35] struggling.

Dana: Yeah.

Rory: And they’re just like. Trying different things. Yeah. And spinning their wheels and [00:23:40] burning out. Yeah. And like, uh, you know, was, was there a time where you kind of [00:23:45] had that?

Mm-hmm. And then you’re like, I was doing this for a long time. I should have been doing this. [00:23:50] And it took me a while to make that switch and once I did, I finally got momentum.

Dana: [00:23:55] Yes, definitely. And I mean, my pillars that you all helped me kind of [00:24:00] develop. So when I look back over the last two decades. What I think has led to this [00:24:05] significance, I’d say success and significance today has been really four things.

It was learning to be [00:24:10] really intentional. I had no clue. I never even heard the word intentionality until I met John Maxwell.

Rory: Mm.

Dana: [00:24:15] So, I mean, I, I didn’t know what intentional looked like. And today, you know, one of the things I teach is [00:24:20] being if you are stuck or you’re drifting or you’re in that struggle zone, [00:24:25] how truly intentional are you being with your time, your talent, and your treasures?

Because. If you [00:24:30] aren’t being intentional with your time or with the talent that God has given you, or even the little bit of money, [00:24:35] or the lot of bit of money that you have, then you, he’s not gonna give you favor and bless you to get out [00:24:40] of that, to keep going. So, I wish I would’ve learned, intentionality way before I did.

I’m grateful that [00:24:45] John taught it to me.

Rory: So it, I wanna, so I wanna pause on that for a second. Okay. So what you just said, because [00:24:50] you’re talking about intentionality. You’re saying you, you believe that if you’re not being [00:24:55] intentional with what, basically, with what God has given you so far. You think [00:25:00] that there’s no evidence to suggest you’re gonna get more until [00:25:05] you’ve basically stewarded what you have?

Is that what you’re saying?

Dana: Definitely. Yeah. It’s biblical and [00:25:10] all and truthfully. I mean, we’re, we are called to be intentional. And so I [00:25:15] think, and for so many years I look back and I was, what I call semi-successful. [00:25:20] So I mean, I just was drifting, like I was winging it at every turn. And it was about me.

[00:25:25] It wasn’t about the other people that I was, you know, serving or, um, it was [00:25:30] truly, it was about success, not about significance. And John, what John Maxwell has always. [00:25:35] Taught and teaches everybody, not just me, but is when you, when you’re, when you think about being successful, [00:25:40] it’s about you. And when you think about living a life of significance, it’s about serving others.

And you, you say the same thing. [00:25:45] And I think that mindset shift, you know, for me, I’ve always had a servant’s [00:25:50] heart, but from a business perspective, especially in real estate, I mean, you know, it’s a [00:25:55] grind and it’s very uber competitive.

Rory: Super competitive,

Dana: so competitive. And so [00:26:00] you can get caught in this trap, and I’m sure this is the same with, you know.

I have friends in [00:26:05] pharmaceutical sales and medical. I mean, all of that, it’s, it’s the same. Any sales is like that, but I, [00:26:10] I think for me it was almost like just. Winging it and going day by [00:26:15] day and like whatever is thrown at me next is the fire that I’m putting out. Or instead of saying, okay, you know, [00:26:20] like today for instance, I don’t really do any calls.

I mean, maybe there’s an occasion [00:26:25] or a meeting or something be, I try not to before 10:00 AM because, but I get up at the [00:26:30] cracks. Same as you, I’m sure. But the reason is because I’ve learned if I’m not intentional with the time in the [00:26:35] morning and I start my day. You know,

Rory: reactive

Dana: or

Rory: whatever. Yeah, yeah.

Dana: Then it’s, [00:26:40] my whole week is screwed up. And so it’s just like being so intentional with your time. Adam and I take the [00:26:45] week, um, the day after Christmas until the end of the first week of January every year, and we go to Florida to [00:26:50] visit his mom, take the kids, and we map out, we do our vision boards. We have our, our month at a [00:26:55] glance paper calendars that we’ll plan for the whole entire year.

We put our vacation. I mean, it’s just [00:27:00] living with intentionality, which to some people may sound like, you know, woo woo or whatever, [00:27:05] but it. It’s worked and it, it works for, it works for me.

Rory: Yeah. [00:27:10] I’ve become very convicted as I’ve gotten older that like

Dana: mm-hmm.

Rory: Excellence is never an accident. [00:27:15]

Dana: Never.

Rory: Like, it never just like, oh, I tried this.

It’s just like, oh, it just worked. It’s like, that’s [00:27:20] never the story you hear.

Dana: Yeah.

Rory: So if, if you go, well, that makes sense. Then you [00:27:25] go, okay, we’ll take that to the next level then. What does it look like? It means that excellence is methodical. Yeah. Which means you, you [00:27:30] plan for it, you prepare for it, you expect it.

Yeah. You know, you adjust For sure. ’cause I [00:27:35] think excellence is messy. Always.

Dana: Always.

Rory: But it’s, but it’s like, it’s not an accident. [00:27:40] You start in a direction. Yeah. And, and, and you have to sort of map out that path. And again, it’s like. [00:27:45] Here you are doing the things we talk about. Mm-hmm. Getting up early and reading [00:27:50] and doing coaching and praying and reading the Bible and doing vision boards.

And you go like, [00:27:55] isn’t all that stuff kind of like cheesy? And you go, maybe, but [00:28:00] look at what it’s brought you. Look what it’s brought me. Look what is like, everybody who like mm-hmm. Came [00:28:05] from such little and done so much. They’re like, these are the things I do.

Dana: Yeah.

Rory: Um, I

Dana: always [00:28:10] think it’s interesting too because.

I think, and I think there’s, I don’t know your background, but I mean, [00:28:15] I didn’t really come from money, so I mean, whatever I’ve had, I’ve, you know, worked for, been blessed. [00:28:20] God has, you know, given, given it to me. But I’ve always heard people say, when you know what it’s like to [00:28:25] not have money, then you really aren’t ever afraid of that.

Because if something happened, you would just do it again. I was

Rory: talking, [00:28:30] I was talking about this with aj, like literally last night.

Dana: I think it’s so true. Do you? [00:28:35]

Rory: I, but because I was just like, I’m like, I’m so grateful constantly [00:28:40] because yeah. Everything I have is always going to be better [00:28:45] than any wherever I started.

Dana: Yeah.

Rory: And it’s like, and I’m not afraid to go back there. And there’s a [00:28:50] few times in my life where I’ve had to like, take some steps, like me too, pretty far backwards. And it’s like, [00:28:55] and it’s okay. Like it, so I, I am grateful for that. Now. Now, [00:29:00] you know, I, where I get worried about that, here’s what worries me is my [00:29:05] kids, you know, we

Dana: talk about this all the time.

Rory: We grew up. Poor. Like we [00:29:10] couldn’t afford box cereal. We didn’t get to go on vacations. Yeah. We didn’t get to do like, didn’t get to go out [00:29:15] to eat.

Dana: Yeah. You didn’t wear Lululemon.

Rory: Right. And it’s like,

Dana: well, you have boys,

Rory: our kids [00:29:20] even So we’re about to move into our new house like on Friday. Yes. And we’ve been building this house for two [00:29:25] years and I, I, I literally, the other day, you know, we’re like doing our final walkthrough and I’m going, [00:29:30] oh my gosh.

Like my kids. Are growing up in a world [00:29:35] that is so radically different.

Dana: Yeah.

Rory: And that’s where I worry about it because I’m like, they’re [00:29:40] not gonna know. They’re never gonna have known anything different.

Dana: Yeah. Yeah. Ours are the same. I mean, we live in [00:29:45] Mount Plastic, Mount Pleasant, Charleston. I mean, it’s, they have like, they, some of their friends get boats for their [00:29:50] 16th birthdays.

Yeah. It’s crazy. But I will tell you what, um, Adam and I talked to John Maxwell one time [00:29:55] about that, and John did say something that. Kind of made me feel a little bit better about it. And I do [00:30:00] believe this, he did say that when your kids grow up with that, of course they’re grateful and I’m [00:30:05] sure yours are the same.

And you know, they like, we go on mission trips and we try to be, again, very [00:30:10] intentional with having them understand this isn’t this. Normal.

Rory: Yeah.

Dana: You know, the way you grow up. [00:30:15] But John said that sometimes when your kids have grown up that way, that when they become adults, they [00:30:20] do wanna, they do kind of level up because they wanna continue the lifestyle, right.

And they wanna continue the [00:30:25] vacations and those things. And so he said, you know, I can’t say that for everybody. And he said, but for the most part, what I [00:30:30] see is like they become very successful young adults into adults because they say, okay, I’ve seen [00:30:35] my parents live this life. And I wanna, you know, kind of

Rory: it keep doing the

Dana: same thing.

Rory: It’s their [00:30:40] expectation level is just higher. Yes. And so I think for a lot of people who [00:30:45] are in a situation where they don’t have much, they struggle to [00:30:50] believe that it’s possible. You know? Yeah. Like I, like, I remember I tell a story all the time, like the first [00:30:55] time that I said I want to be a New York Times bestselling author.

[00:31:00] Might as well have said, I’m gonna be the president of the United States. Like the distance between where [00:31:05] I was and that

Dana: Yeah.

Rory: Those were the same distance. Mm-hmm. Like they were equally impossible. [00:31:10] Right. And I think a lot of people, they, they can’t. They [00:31:15] can’t get the logic or rationale of their mind wrapped around something so big.

Yeah. [00:31:20] Because they’ve never tasted it. They’ve never experienced it. They don’t know anybody who has done it. They don’t know [00:31:25] how to do it. Yeah. They don’t know how to get started, and so it just seems impossible, and so they don’t. I think, [00:31:30] you know, when you grow up around successful people, it’s like you are programmed of, like, [00:31:35] we talk about money, we know about taxes, we start businesses.

Yeah. We hire people, we delegate stuff. Yeah. [00:31:40] We invest in tools and people. Mm-hmm. And technology and whatever. So, so I do think that is [00:31:45] just, I just wanna make sure they’re not entitled little jerks.

Dana: Yeah. We do. We, we do also, we, we, [00:31:50] Adam and I, Adam and I get in the hot tub every night, almost every night, like before bed.

And people have been messaging on Instagram saying, [00:31:55] I can’t believe with hell. Much of a health net. You are, you all get in a hot tub. But I’m like, we, it’s salt [00:32:00] water, like we’re good. It’s not all the chemicals. Um, but every night in the hot tub, I [00:32:05] mean, I would say 50% of the time, that’s what we talk about.

Like how do we make sure that the kids. Are [00:32:10] just not entitled or that they’re appreciative and grateful. And, and I [00:32:15] honestly, I think it’s just keeping ’em in church. I mean, for us that’s what it is. Like keep just keeping them, [00:32:20] you know, and it’s, I was so proud. This has nothing to do with anything we’re talking about, but I will tell you, um, [00:32:25] so my, it’s my bonus son, Adam’s son Addison.

He’s getting ready to be 18. He’s 17 years old and he has. [00:32:30] Had his first girlfriend. And so he was sitting in the hot tub with us two nights [00:32:35] ago and we were just, and sometimes that’s our time to like talk and ask questions. And you know, everybody’s so busy they play [00:32:40] tennis seven hours a day, so we don’t get to ask that many questions during the day.

Rory: Wow.

Dana: But we were sitting in the hot tub [00:32:45] and he was talk, we were talking about his girlfriend. She just went to the mountains with us for Thanksgiving and he said, [00:32:50] yeah, we just had this conversation that it’s really important to us a hundred percent that we’re saving ourselves for marriage. [00:32:55] And Adam and I were in the hot tub like.

Great. That’s That’s

Rory: a great news.

Dana: That’s great news.

Rory: [00:33:00] That’s great news. But

Dana: when we got out all that to say, when we got out, I mean, Adam was like, I honestly, I’m so [00:33:05] proud. He was like, I don’t think he could have said anything that would’ve made me more proud, because he said, we just don’t [00:33:10] know what goes through their head.

Or, you know, especially when you have two, you and AJ are the [00:33:15] same when you have two working parents that work full time, that are all the, I mean, it’s just, yeah, [00:33:20] it’s different. It’s totally different time, but I think we just have to keep ’em and keep good people around them, like their [00:33:25] friends and stuff.

Rory: Yeah. Well, the, to come back to your word intentional.

Dana: Yeah.

Rory: Which by the way, [00:33:30] is what this is. That’s, you’ve got four pillars.

Dana: Yes.

Rory: This is book one.

Dana: Yes.

Rory: Which is [00:33:35] based on that pillar Tell. Tell us a little bit about, tell us a little bit about Restore.

Dana: Yes. Okay. So Restore [00:33:40] started out as a 365 daily reader, and then through [00:33:45] working with Larissa and Brand Builders, I was like, okay.

That, along with running the other businesses that I do, [00:33:50] 365 days is a little overwhelming to me, so I’ll never forget Larissa said. People like Fast, [00:33:55] they like Packa Punch, they wanna read. So like why don’t you just do 90 days? And I’m like, why have I never thought of that? Why [00:34:00] am I trying to do? Yeah, that’s great.

Do 365 days. That’s,

Rory: I think that’s great.

Dana: Yeah. So I change it to 90 days. So it [00:34:05] is 90 days a daily reader of intentional living in your life, faith, and business. So [00:34:10] even if you are not a believer, you should still read the book. You will get a ton from it. Business-wise, I basically, [00:34:15] Rory thought, okay, I’ve had, well in my third pillar that I talk about, we’ll have to [00:34:20] talk about another time, but it’s just the power of proximity.

Hmm. Being, having proximity to [00:34:25] great people like Linda McKissick, like Gary Keller, like John Maxwell, and so many others. Now, I would [00:34:30] say you y your brain is opened up to so much more. So in the [00:34:35] book I shared 90 lessons of Intentional Living. And it’s all just [00:34:40] a lot of people. I’ve met a lot of stories.

Speaking of excellence, one of the stories in the book I talk [00:34:45] about is I heard Tim Grover, the coach of all the greats, you know, speak one time.

Rory: It was like Michael [00:34:50] Jordan’s

Dana: personal coach. Yeah. Michael Jordan. Kobe. Kobe Bryant. I mean, um, Steph. What’s [00:34:55] Steph? Curry. Curry, yeah. There’s so many of them. He tells the story and I tell, I share the story.

[00:35:00] Um, on one of the days in the book of how he got to coach mj, people were like, how in the world did you get to coach Michael [00:35:05] Jordan? And he said, well, I, I sent letters to every, he said, funny story. I sent [00:35:10] letters to everybody. I’m hearing him tell this, um, like on stage at an event that I was at. And I was just blown [00:35:15] away with it.

He said, I sent a letter to every single player on the team, but I did not send Michael [00:35:20] Jordan one because he was the untouchable. And he said, I sent letters to everybody on the team saying. [00:35:25] I’m a coach. Here’s the way I can help you. Here’s what I can do for your game. Here’s how I can, you know, do for your life, blah, blah, blah.

[00:35:30] And he said, several weeks later, I get a call from a representative from Michael Jordan and he said, um, Michael [00:35:35] Jordan wants to talk to you. And Tim said that. He’s like, this is weird. I didn’t send him a letter [00:35:40] like I’ve, I, you know, I never had a connection. Long story short, he gets to meet with Michael.

And at the [00:35:45] end Tim says, so curious, like how I’m excited to work with you, but how did you get to me? And Michael said, well, [00:35:50] we were in the locker room. And he said, I heard all the other players talking about this letter that they got. And he said, they were [00:35:55] saying that some coach was like basically stalking all of them wanting to, you know, to get their business or whatever.

And [00:36:00] he said, and I’ve always believed that the best of the best always keep getting better. And he [00:36:05] said, and I just wanted to know who the coach was that everybody was talking about. Hmm. But that lesson to me, [00:36:10] like talk about intentionality. I mean if when you live with intentional living, that [00:36:15] that is true what he said, the best of the best are always looking to get better.

So you’re always trying to see how [00:36:20] can I be more intentional with, you know, time, talent, treasures, whatever in your business and your day to [00:36:25] day. Um, so yeah, the book is all about that. And also just some personal stories shared in there too. [00:36:30]

Rory: Yeah. First book. Well, can you and tell everyone who’s Larry, because you said you’re talking [00:36:35] about Larissa.

They don’t know who Larry Larry is.

Dana: Oh my gosh. Larissa actually, how do you pronounce her last names?

Rory: [00:36:40] Salazar.

Dana: Salazar. Okay. I always don’t never wanna say it wrong. Larissa works with you for you, for brain builders and [00:36:45] she

Rory: with us.

Dana: With, yes, with you. And, um, she was not my first [00:36:50] coach. She was actually my second coach with brand builders.

Rory: Okay.

Dana: And oh my [00:36:55] gosh, now she coaches. My husband, my friend Tyler. I mean there’s um, [00:37:00] um, my friend Ashley. I mean, there’s so many

Rory: because you’re talking about, are you talking about Tyler Dicker? Who?

Dana: Yes.

Rory: Oh yeah. She coaches Tyler. [00:37:05]

Dana: Yeah, that’s right. Yeah, because Tyler’s like, you know, been with brand builders for a long time.

Yeah. I’m like, you need [00:37:10] Larissa. But, um, she’s helped me. I mean, oh my gosh. Right. You’re so blessed to have her. She is [00:37:15] just the best.

Rory: Yeah.

Dana: And she gets me, which is good.

Rory: She’s, she’s amazing. And, [00:37:20] and, and, you know, it’s like, I’m very deliberate about that. It’s like, she doesn’t work for me. She works for you.

Dana: Yeah. [00:37:25]

Rory: Right. Like, she works for herself. I love, but she works for you.

Dana: Yeah.

Rory: Uh, but we, we, we,

Dana: so she’s [00:37:30] so talented. Oh my

Rory: gosh. She’s incredible. And, and we have so many, Chris is over here. He’s one. [00:37:35] I, I’ll say, like I’ve said this a few other times, like the biggest compliment that [00:37:40] I get. Professionally

Dana: mm-hmm.

Rory: Is how do you get so many [00:37:45] amazing people to work as part of Brand Builders Group and, and it’s like, you know, Lord’s favor. [00:37:50]

Dana: Yes.

Rory: God’s blessing. Our team. Yeah. But it is like, our team is amazing.

Dana: I just [00:37:55] heard John say something. Um, actually it was at the event that you spoke at in, um, west Palm. I think you weren’t [00:38:00] there.

This was before you spoke. He said he was talking, he did his first lesson around team [00:38:05] building and um, just how to build really great teams and how to have. You know, team members forever. [00:38:10] And he shared a stat, I’m probably gonna butcher it, but he said something like. If after six [00:38:15] years you have more than eight people on your, with you in your organization that [00:38:20] have been with you for eight years or no.

That have been with you for six years or longer. So if you can look up and [00:38:25] identify eight people who’ve been with you six years or longer, he said you are like an anomaly. [00:38:30] That pe that that doesn’t happen with people, with leaders anymore. Business owners,

Rory: people don’t stay six years.

Dana: [00:38:35] No, not at all. And so he like, so he was talking about how to foreign to your team members and all [00:38:40] those things, but he said that.

Having long term tenured team, team members like [00:38:45] that is actually what creates other people that wanna be with you. Mm-hmm. Like, you get the best of the best. [00:38:50]

Rory: Well, and it, it’s going back to that thing as a leader. Mm-hmm. You know, and, and I [00:38:55] wanna ask you about being a person, about building personal brand and leadership in a second, but like [00:39:00] to that thing about learning and it’s one of John’s, uh, 21 irrefutable [00:39:05] laws of leadership.

I think the law of the lid, it’s like if you don’t grow as a leader, then people aren’t, can’t keep growing [00:39:10] themselves and then they’re gonna leave you

Dana: totally.

Rory: So I’m just, just [00:39:15] totally curious about this. So you have 600 agents.

Dana: Yes.

Rory: Would [00:39:20] you, you actively encourage them to go build a personal [00:39:25] brand? Like separate of like Yeah.

You and your team and Keller Williams and like

Dana: Yes.

Rory: You would [00:39:30] tell ’em to do that?

Dana: 100%, yes. Yeah. And here’s another reason. Okay. [00:39:35] One, because it’s the right thing for them. I mean, truthfully, that’s how they’re gonna grow their [00:39:40] business. Like I said earlier, I don’t want them to look up, I always tell my agents, I never want you to look up one day and say, [00:39:45] why did Dana never tell us this was gonna happen?

Or this, you know, wasn’t. And I also, you know, Gary [00:39:50] is like, Gary has this magic crystal ball of like the future of real estate. I don’t know what he, how he does it. [00:39:55] So I’m blessed to get to learn from him. But when you look at the personal brand side of things, I, [00:40:00] I just. I already see it, or I already see successful [00:40:05] agents who have had.

And leaders in general, I mean, who have had good [00:40:10] businesses, I already see them starting to go backwards because they aren’t building their personal [00:40:15] brand and it’s, I just, I think it’s so important. And then also I want them to [00:40:20] build their personal brands and have the biggest brand possible and be with me, because all that’s gonna do is attract [00:40:25] more people to us.

Rory: Mm-hmm.

Dana: That’s why the agent who just joined, who I’m gonna do the 12. I’m [00:40:30] like, yes, I would love for you to do that and come over and build your brand, because I want people to be like, wow, [00:40:35] look at him. He’s this huge agent and he’s, he’s with Keller Williams legacy girl. You know, he’s with [00:40:40] Dana. Like, I, I just think it will multiply.

Rory: Mm-hmm. Yeah. That, that’s [00:40:45] amazing. And that, and

Dana: I also think you can’t have a scarcity mindset around

Rory: losing I was just gonna say that that is [00:40:50] another key part of the mentality is it’s the abundance mentality to go,

Dana: yeah. [00:40:55]

Rory: I can’t help you win and me lose as a byproduct.

Dana: No.

Rory: Like, [00:41:00] if I help you win, I’m only gonna win.

And sometimes it It’s more indirect. Yeah. But it’s [00:41:05] like, it, it is that, and the people who are like, it, it’s kind of the old, the [00:41:10] old adage used to be, it was like. You know, you, you should, you should invest in training your people [00:41:15] and the manager’s like, well, I don’t wanna spend any money training ’em. What if they, what if I train ’em and they [00:41:20] leave?

Dana: Yeah.

Rory: And it’s like, well, the real question is, what if you don’t train ’em? And they stay?

Dana: Totally.

Rory: And that’s kind of like how the [00:41:25] personal brand thing mm-hmm. Is like, well, what if I help ’em build a personal brand? And they leave? And they’re like, well, what if you don’t? And they [00:41:30] stay, they’re not, they’re not gonna be growing and, and building, yeah.

Dana: And I’ve been telling mine even [00:41:35] in, you know, I just taught these big end of the year business planning clinics where I actually show them your data trend report and, [00:41:40] and have them download it and everything because I’m like, you guys, this is

Rory: you using your a affiliate link [00:41:45]

Dana: for that? Yes. Oh yeah. Yes I do.

Larissa taught me how to do that a year later, but yes, I am [00:41:50] now. But I even tell them then, you know, I almost feel, I don’t [00:41:55] wanna say pressure ’cause that’s. Kind of a negative word, but there is somewhat of a pressure for [00:42:00] me to Milt to build my brand because I can’t get on stage and tell them to do something that [00:42:05] I’m not doing

Rory: True.

Dana: Like that is not, you know, that would not be good. Like, I just, I [00:42:10] wouldn’t be able to, I don’t feel like that’s great leadership. And so part of the reason why I’ve been [00:42:15] investing so heavily in it myself is because I want to model it for them, and I also want [00:42:20] them to say, okay, wow. Well, if Dana’s telling us to do this and she’s doing it, then you [00:42:25] know I need to do it too.

I just don’t, I don’t know. I just don’t think people learn from leaders that are telling [00:42:30] them to do things, but they aren’t doing them themselves.

Rory: Yeah. One of our strategists, this is [00:42:35] another one of our strategists who’s awesome. His name’s Ben Klarik. He’s down, he’s downstairs actually right now.

Dana: Is he the podcast?[00:42:40]

Rory: No, that’s Matt.

Dana: Oh,

Rory: okay. He’s also awesome. I mean, they’re all awesome. They’re all awesome. Heart seems awesome, but, [00:42:45] but Ben told me something this morning, and this is a quote from him, is he said, you know, building a [00:42:50] personal brand is a professional insurance policy.

Dana: I love that.

Rory: And I was like, so [00:42:55] good.

Because he is like, what if the company goes outta business?

Dana: 100%.

Rory: What if you get laid off?

Dana: Yep.

Rory: What if AI [00:43:00] replaces that industry?

Dana: Yeah.

Rory: And it’s just like. If you have a personal brand, you pivot. No [00:43:05] problem. Yeah. Trust, you know, do the next thing.

Dana: It’s so true

Rory: and that’s, it’s really, really good.

Dana: Oh, I’m gonna use that.

[00:43:10] Well, and Gary Keller has been saying this thing, ’cause all these realtors specifically have been freaking out that [00:43:15] AI is gonna replace real estate agents or replace, you know, lenders or replace whoever. [00:43:20] And Gary came out maybe last year and said, um. He said it from stage and now everybody says it, [00:43:25] but he said, AI is not gonna replace realtors.

Other realtors that adopt [00:43:30] AI are going to replace the realtors that, that don’t. And I’ve been saying that about the personal [00:43:35] brands. Like I, I really believe that. I mean, I, I think that the ones that. In in [00:43:40] any business, not even real estate. I know there’s tons of people listening that aren’t in real estate.

Whatever business it is, if they [00:43:45] aren’t building a personal brand, the other, their competitor who is, is probably gonna be the one to take [00:43:50] market share from them.

Rory: Yes, yes. I think, I think that’s, I think that’s really, really true. [00:43:55] Alright.

Dana: And it all hit fast. I feel like

Rory: ai,

Dana: no, like just, I mean, [00:44:00] the personal branding, obviously personal branding and marketing has been a thing, but I feel like now, [00:44:05] just over the last several years you were like God’s timing on it.

Perfect. Because now I [00:44:10] just feel like it’s, people care so much about it more than they ever have before.

Rory: Yeah. [00:44:15] I think it’s like all the barriers of, of, uh. [00:44:20] Like having to have big media or a lot of a huge team. Mm-hmm. Or lots of [00:44:25] technology, you know, even now, like, uh, uh, we’re vibe coding, you know, we’re vibe coding [00:44:30] apps.

Like I vibe coded an app over the weekend that in our former company we spent [00:44:35] over $250,000 Wow. To build an app. I built it in like a few hours over the [00:44:40] weekend. That wild. And I never thought we’d be able to do that, and certainly that I never personally would be able to do it. [00:44:45] Um, I’ve been using AI to write songs.

This is a, I saw, this is my new distraction.

Dana: Brother or [00:44:50] sister-in-law, or sister or

Rory: somebody. Yeah. I have written five songs.

Dana: You need to talk to John Maxwell. You know, he’s been [00:44:55] writing songs with somebody in Nashville.

Rory: Has he really?

Dana: Yes.

Rory: I mean, because it’s, it’s

Dana: But [00:45:00] who was singing that one for their wedding?

Rory: It’s a ai. Ai, yeah. So I’m [00:45:05] writing them, it’s, I’m writing them. It’s them. But I’m able to use AI to put, to put the, to [00:45:10] the, the music and the voice, because I’ve always thought, I’ve always thought. I [00:45:15] would be a great songwriter because I’m a writer, right. And I’ll listen to songs on the radio and I’m like, if [00:45:20] they would’ve changed that word or this line, it would be so much better.

Dana: Love it.

Rory: But I cannot [00:45:25] sing at all. Like even in church, I’m almost like kind of quiet and like try to be in the front row so nobody can [00:45:30] hear me. ’cause the band’s so loud. And then, you know, music like, forget it, I can’t read it. I can’t, me neither. Can’t play [00:45:35] recorder. Like whatever. But I can now, I can write the lyrics and drop it into AI and it’s [00:45:40] like songs are.

Dana: Did they freak over that gift?

Rory: Yeah, they freaked out. So I wrote a, you [00:45:45] know, AJ asked me to write it for her brother. It

Dana: was her brother, yes. Okay.

Rory: For her brother was getting married and they [00:45:50] loved it. And then, um, and then AJ’s like, I want one for Christmas. So I wrote her a [00:45:55] song for Christmas, which no one has heard yet.

Oh,

Dana: that’s so

Rory: cool. And then I wrote a song [00:46:00] called, uh, well I don’t wanna say it yet ’cause it’s not published, but I wrote a song that is. [00:46:05] I’ve, I’ve written songs based on some of the most viral concepts that I’ve taught in personal development. Wow. [00:46:10] And by turning them into songs.

Dana: And you’re right here in Nashville, like you need to hook up with [00:46:15] somebody

Rory: that, yeah.

Right. So, you know,

Dana: that’s so cool. But.

Rory: You know, diluted [00:46:20] focus, diluted results. That’s like our mantra. So I’m just like,

Dana: so you could just keep it as a hobby.

Rory: It just needs to be a [00:46:25] hobby. It just needs to be, it just needs to be a hobby. But, um, you know, I think that the [00:46:30] world is changing and it’s like, whether we like it or not, it is.

Yeah. It’s just the question should not [00:46:35] be whether you like it or not, that’s completely irrelevant. It’s just like, how are you [00:46:40] going to use this? Yep. And, um, you, we have to be thinking that [00:46:45] way. Mm-hmm. And, and, and I love it. So,

Dana: yeah.

Rory: Um. Where do you want people to go [00:46:50] to learn more about you? Yes. If they happen to be looking for a career in real estate, that obviously [00:46:55] they can come.

Dana: Ah, that’d

Rory: be great. Find you. And you know, if they wanna move an entire team over to you now [00:47:00] we know that’s possible and, and brand builders can be part of the package.

Dana: Yes. Love

Rory: it. [00:47:05] But other than that, where do people go to find you and learn about the book?

Dana: Yes. Okay. So they can learn about the [00:47:10] [email protected].

Okay. I have tons of, um. Oh, what do we [00:47:15] call ’em? Um,

Rory: pre-order incentives and

Dana: bonuses. Yes, incentives. Bonus. I have all the things on there. [00:47:20] And then they can also follow me on Instagram. It’s Dana g Gentry. [00:47:25] And also I did put together a freebie of my exact intentional [00:47:30] morning routine. So if someone’s listening and you follow me on Instagram, you can just DM me the [00:47:35] word Rory, and I’ll send you the uh, I got my own keyword.

Yeah, you got your own keyword. And I’ll [00:47:40] send you the morning, my intentional morning routine.

Rory: Yeah, I love that. Yeah. Um, [00:47:45] so I, I’ve got one last question for you, but be before I just ask that, I just, I just [00:47:50] want to acknowledge Dana, like I love who you are. I admire the [00:47:55] marriage that you have with Adam. The way you build business, the way you invest in yourself, the way you invest in [00:48:00] other people, the way that you serve.

You know that you’ve moved from [00:48:05] success to significance in service. Um, the, the people in your network [00:48:10] and the. Your, in your willingness to innovate. Right. [00:48:15] And go like, Hey, I’m gonna learn personal branding and like, apply that to real estate. And, and what’s [00:48:20] in edifying for me is to see the fruit you’re experiencing in your life.
Dana: Yeah.

WWK Ep 009: From Devastation to Purpose: How One Mom Became the “Special Education Boss” with Karen Meyer Cunningham

Karen: [00:00:00] When he’s about 18 months old, we took him to the doctor and after that he started putting his head through the [00:00:05] sheet rock at our house. Um, and just became very sick and lost all of his [00:00:10] milestones. He lost his ability to speak and just was so dysregulated. About a [00:00:15] year later, he went to a professional clinician and uh, she evaluated him and she [00:00:20] was very not warm and fuzzy, and she’s like, well, he has autism.

He has classic [00:00:25] autism. He has 15 of the 16 markers. He’ll never play with other children. He won’t have any [00:00:30] friends. You’ll probably have to put him in a home when he grows up. Do you want a copy of the report? [00:00:35] So,

Rory: whoa.

Karen: Happy Tuesday. And so I, um, was devastated.[00:00:40] [00:00:45] [00:00:50]

Rory: Hey, if you [00:00:55] hang around here, we talk about finding your uniqueness and [00:01:00] serving the person that you once were exploiting your uniqueness in the service of others. We believe that [00:01:05] if you have diluted focus, you get diluted results, and if you niche down and really focus [00:01:10] on serving the person, you, whoever you can, in the deepest way, you’ll build a great business.[00:01:15]

A big personal brand. And today we’ve got a real life story of a brand builder, [00:01:20] a friend, and someone who is changing the industry and in many ways [00:01:25] changing the world. And she has done this exact thing. She has done what people [00:01:30] refuse to do. She has narrowed down, she has focused in, she has leaned in in it [00:01:35] in terms of serving a topic and a market.

And her topic, when you hear this. [00:01:40] You’re gonna be like, whoa, that is very specific. And so I’m gonna actually [00:01:45] read this ’cause I don’t wanna get it wrong about what her real expertise is and, but I’ve [00:01:50] invited her on the show. We’re gonna talk about her story, about how she’s building her personal brand.

Okay? So listen to this. [00:01:55] So Karen Mayer Cunningham is a nationally recognized special education. [00:02:00] Advocate, speaker and mediator with over two decades of experience guiding families and [00:02:05] educators and professionals through the complexities of special [00:02:10] education systems. So online, she is known as special education [00:02:15] boss, and this is such a narrow niche.

So her expertise [00:02:20] is in. Idea IDEA, section 5 0 4 and [00:02:25] disability advocacy. So she has a clear commitment to ensuring equitable access and [00:02:30] meaningful outcomes for students with disabilities. So what does that mean? She [00:02:35] helps parents and teachers and schools and students who are struggling with disabilities.[00:02:40]

To create individual educational plans. She’s the author of this brand new [00:02:45] book, the Epic IEP, which is available from none other than Mission [00:02:50] Driven Press. This woman is changing the world, dominating space and get this, [00:02:55] she has over a million followers online [00:03:00] in this very, very specific vertical. She’s a friend.

She’s a delight. You [00:03:05] inspire me. Karen, thanks for being here.

Karen: Oh, thank you so much for having me, Roy.

Rory: So. [00:03:10] Tell us a story. You know, you, we say you’re most powerfully positioned to serve the person you once [00:03:15] were. I feel like you are. You are in so many ways, a living, [00:03:20] breathing, shining example of what we want to be about at Brand Builders Group and now Mission-Driven Press.[00:03:25]

Tell us the story of how you got into this very [00:03:30] specific spot that you occupy.

Karen: Sure. So I had, um, a perfect child. Um, [00:03:35] he was born, I think he got a nine on his Apgar at the hospital. I think that’s like an honor roll and [00:03:40] everything was great. And, um, when he’s about 18 months old, we took him to the doctor.

Um, [00:03:45] after that he started putting his head through the sheet rock at our house. Um, and just [00:03:50] became very sick and, um, lost all of his milestones. He lost his ability to [00:03:55] speak, um, and just was so dysregulated. And we started this process of trying to find [00:04:00] out what was going on with him. And about a year later we went to a professional.

[00:04:05] A professional clinician and uh, she evaluated him and she was very not warm and [00:04:10] fuzzy. And she’s like, well, he has autism. He has classic autism. He has 15 of [00:04:15] the 16 markers. He’ll never play with other children. He won’t have any friends. You’ll probably have to put [00:04:20] him in a home when he grows up. Do you want a copy of the report?

So,

Rory: whoa.

Karen: [00:04:25] Happy Tuesday. And so I, um, was devastated. I knew there was something terribly, [00:04:30] terribly wrong.

And

Rory: you said this is like, he’s 18 months, like he’s not even two years old.

Karen: He’s like two years old at this point. [00:04:35] And, um, you know, I was searching for answers and um, I remember getting in my car that day, [00:04:40] just devastated holding this report.

And, um, I thought, you know, if me [00:04:45] and Oprah and God can figure this out, we’re gonna figure this out. Because there is [00:04:50] no way that is the destiny on his life. Like not with me being his mother. That can’t [00:04:55] possibly be true. And so we started the process and one of my friends told me that if [00:05:00] you’re speech delayed, um, you can start school as early as three.

I was like, fantastic. [00:05:05] That’s what we’ll do. We took him, got him evaluated, he he met criteria and we send ’em across the [00:05:10] street with an original Lion King back. Lion King backpack. I’d like to say that and ’cause that’s what you do. [00:05:15] You send kids to school and they fix them. If there’s something wrong with them, they’ll just fix them.

And so he [00:05:20] went to school and a few weeks later there was a knock at the door and my husband called me at [00:05:25] my salon. Um, and sometimes I’m humorous, so he said, I’m not kidding, [00:05:30] which is probably a good intro for me. And he said, there’s somebody here from Child Protective Services. [00:05:35] Uh, they’ve checked James for Marks because he’s been reported that we’re harming him.

She would like to [00:05:40] talk to you. Is now a good time? Not your average phone call. [00:05:45] So I said, yeah, now’s a good time. And she was very aggressive. And she goes, do you think it’s normal that he rocks [00:05:50] all the time? No. Do you think it’s normal that he chew his fingers so they bleed? No. Do you think it’s normal that he lost [00:05:55] all of his language?

No. Um, what are you gonna do about it? I said, well, we’re sending him to school for [00:06:00] preschool programs for kids with disabilities. Well, that’s what your husband said too. And I’m [00:06:05] gonna leave a brochure here in case we take him into custody. And that was my entrance in the mid [00:06:10] nineties, uh, to special education.

As I was devastated that night, crying [00:06:15] my eyes out, I just had this resolve that this cannot be the chaos that we’re [00:06:20] walking through. And so, um, I went down, um, to the school like a lunatic [00:06:25] mother and, um, was, you know, crying and everybody’s looking at me like, I am a lunatic. And this is the [00:06:30] nineties. And nobody knew what, um, autism was.

I remember somebody used to say, do you, does he count cards, [00:06:35] ma’am, that was a movie. No, we don’t take him to Vegas and have him count cards and a pull up. That’s that’s a [00:06:40] movie.

Rory: Yeah. This, I mean that I feel like. You know, the world isn’t always getting better in [00:06:45] some ways, but, but back then, I think people have been a little more, sens have become more sensitive.

Yes. But [00:06:50] back in the nineties it was like,

Karen: yeah,

Rory: they’re, these are jokes and I don’t care and you are slowing us [00:06:55] down and why are you here and what’s wrong with you?

Karen: Absolutely. And so the tea, somebody [00:07:00] called us and reported us a second time and at that point I was like, we’re not doing this. And I drove down [00:07:05] to, um, the child protective offices and I don’t recommend that anybody do what I did.

And I [00:07:10] had my cart and every mom and dad and grandparent with a kid with a disability. That what I’m talking about, you [00:07:15] know, your cart, it’s your cart of paperwork. And I just rolled it down there and I said, I wanna see my case [00:07:20] manager. Of course it’s not your case manager. And the police officer was like, okay.

So we went up [00:07:25] to the elevator and I walked down the hall. My, um, you know, [00:07:30] representative from Child Protective Services and I think she might have been 22 years old in one day. And here [00:07:35] I am at her door and I said, do you know, know anything about [00:07:40] autism? And she said, um, I think when I was a sophomore, I had a [00:07:45] seminar.

And I thought, are you my leader? And that was the first person that day [00:07:50] that ever gave me a resource. And she handed me a card for MHMR of Travis County. [00:07:55] And it’s an agency that helps with kids with disabilities. And I thought, why am I a [00:08:00] child protective service office? And the first person that resources me.

Is this person [00:08:05] and I, um, started finding out information and, and connecting with our state board of [00:08:10] education and I just became in love with these kiddos in love with this law and in love with, [00:08:15] you know, helping parents. And, um, that’s how I got my entrance. I was,

Rory: this started out of [00:08:20] desperation. This wasn’t a plan, this wasn’t a desire, this was a desperate [00:08:25] situation.

Karen: Yeah,

Rory: my son needs help.

Karen: Absolutely

Rory: nobody has. Where do [00:08:30] I go? What do I do?

Karen: Yeah. There was no direction, there was no help. And I thought, you know, and, and it’s very shame [00:08:35] based when you have, often, when you have a child with a disability, parents are ashamed that [00:08:40] their child with a disability might be upsetting your birthday party or church service or [00:08:45] Christmas.

Rory: Sure.

Karen: Yeah.

Rory: Um, so [00:08:50] you start this for your son, at which point [00:08:55] does it translate into. Oh, other people [00:09:00] are struggling with this and I could be useful to them.

Karen: Just immediately, [00:09:05] just immediately. I thought that, remember at the beginning I thought these people at the school, they know what to [00:09:10] do and they’re plotting against me and they won’t do it.

And the truth is, God [00:09:15] bless teachers, we love them. They went to school to teach. They went to school even to be special education [00:09:20] teachers. We as school districts do not train our most valuable resource in school [00:09:25] teachers about special education application obligations or duties. [00:09:30] There were just a bunch of nice people trying to help my son, but if we don’t know those [00:09:35] requirements, you might be handicapping a child even more.

And I just, um, [00:09:40] began helping people and helping them get it right. It was really bumpy at the beginning. [00:09:45] Um, but what I always say is, when we get it right for the child, we get it right for everybody, and we can do that. [00:09:50]

Rory: You were helping other parents?

Karen: [00:09:55] Yes.

Rory: And you were interfacing with the schools?

Karen: Yes.

Rory: And then the school boards, and [00:10:00] then at some point you start getting into these laws.

Right. I mean, as I, as I understand, it’s like [00:10:05] there’s a very. Complex set of laws [00:10:10] that the average parent of a, a student with disabilities [00:10:15] cannot interpret, does not want to read, understand, and you kind of become [00:10:20] this bridge almost to go, Hey, here’s what this means. Here’s how to interpret this, [00:10:25] here’s how to use it.

Is that.

Karen: Absolutely. So, I mean, the federal statute [00:10:30] has been whittled down to 115 codes. If you’re ever, you know, having struggled, struggling to sleep at night, [00:10:35] just read the federal law, it’s so enjoyable and nobody has time to read it. And you know, it [00:10:40] happened 50 years ago, but it brings equity and it builds a bridge over the [00:10:45] barrier that is disabilities.

Uhhuh.

Rory: And then, and then what’s the. [00:10:50] How, how are you engaging with schools at this? Like at this point, like back then, or [00:10:55] even, are they receptive to you? Are they like not, Hey, you’re not one of us. Like, [00:11:00] how did that all

Karen: happen? You know, I thought they were gonna be receptive. Well, we [00:11:05] right, and we thought there’d be an easier, softer way.

We were wrong. I remember, I always tell God that I wanted to be [00:11:10] popular and he said no, I was really looking for effective. And I was, no, I was going for popular [00:11:15] because I’m coming into an agency, a bureaucracy. Um, and they do things a [00:11:20] certain way,

Rory: right?

Karen: And if I bring you in in January and we want funding for your child [00:11:25] for disabilities, all that money was spent July 1st of the fiscal year.[00:11:30]

The money’s not there, the hands aren’t there, the services aren’t there. And [00:11:35] so people were getting a child’s individualized education program, but it was very [00:11:40] baseline. It didn’t have specificity, it wasn’t tied to the child’s unique circumstances. [00:11:45] And so, you know, my job is to walk alongside parents. I don’t think there’s a greater honor than to walk [00:11:50] alongside a child’s educational healing and make sure that what we provide to them in an [00:11:55] epic IEP changes their life for the next 80 years.

Rory: [00:12:00] So when did this become professional, I guess? You know, it’s like it starts [00:12:05] personal. People start asking, you’re kind of like sticking your nose in places, getting stuff done, [00:12:10] knocking down walls.

Karen: Yeah.

Rory: And then at some point it tips into like. [00:12:15] This is, this is my, not just, it’s a calling and it’s a career.

When did that, [00:12:20] when did that happen?

Karen: Probably about 2010. And you know, I always,

Rory: okay, so this is like [00:12:25] 15, 20 years later.

Karen: Yes. And it’s one of those things I couldn’t not do it [00:12:30] right. And that’s how you know what you’re supposed to do. Like you just couldn’t not do it. If this wasn’t a [00:12:35] vocation, I would still want to equip teams and parents and [00:12:40] advocates serving kiddos.

I couldn’t get it outta my bones.

Rory: So you started your own business [00:12:45] right out of the gate. At this point you’re like, other people need and so and so your [00:12:50] son now is. Out of the school system. Yeah. Right, right. So, so that happens and you realize, [00:12:55] okay, there’s a need here.

Karen: Yes.

Rory: And I can do this. And so is special education boss [00:13:00] born right away, 2010 And like,

Karen: we didn’t call it that, but yes, they invented [00:13:05] this thing called social media.

I don’t know if you’ve heard of it. It’s on the interweb. Um, it was more of a [00:13:10] panic. I wanted people, the masses to know the truth. And there’s so [00:13:15] much misinformation in schools about special education. It’s not malicious. Just [00:13:20] as Bob was trained by Carol, who was trained by Terry, who was trained by John, none of [00:13:25] them know anything about special education law and they’re just sort of lumbering through it.

And [00:13:30] the specificity, that specificity that you get with an epic IP changes a child’s [00:13:35] entire life. It gives a family hope and it gives a child a future. And I think often [00:13:40] we don’t consider children with disabilities equal ROI on our investment. [00:13:45] You know, kids with disabilities are probably not going to be a school board meeting photo op, [00:13:50] but you know what, those children have the same value as any other child.

Rory: [00:13:55] So did you get on social media right away? Is that where this all kind of

Karen: started? I think I was looking back and um, [00:14:00] my original email was Karen Haha, mayor, 2000 at Yahoo. I, [00:14:05] I felt like that had a flow to it and, um. I just, yeah, I was just sort of, you know, [00:14:10] the mouth of the south and I still am. I’m like, that’s not true.

This isn’t true. This [00:14:15] happened at my meeting. This is how you shut it down. And hopefully I’m a little more refined now

Rory: on [00:14:20] social though.

Karen: Oh yeah. If I’ve got something to say, I’m just gonna say it. Uhhuh. Yeah. I don’t make it pretty and [00:14:25] pristine. I make it powerful.

Rory: Okay, so, so you were early to social media.

Karen: Yes.

Rory: [00:14:30] Did you ever think you would have. Million followers? No.

Karen: Oh, no, no, no, no, no, [00:14:35] no. And it really exploded Friday, February 13th, 2020. [00:14:40] Our governor came on the news and he said schools were closed down for the pandemic. And in that moment I [00:14:45] realized that I was unemployed. That’s what I do. I go into school district two and three times a day [00:14:50] serving families in person.

I represent the the family with a child with disability. And we go into the school and have [00:14:55] the meeting and I was like, oh my gosh, now I’m bankrupt. Unemployed. And my two [00:15:00] boys went down to Ace Hardware and they got me this thing called an ethernet cord. I don’t know if they have ’em here in [00:15:05] Nashville, but it takes the ether and the net and then their one accord.

And then I was like, go tell it [00:15:10] on a mountain. And I would go live every week night at nine o’clock because I felt like that’s a good time [00:15:15] with a little extra concealer. And I was like, we’re not doing this. We’re not doing this. And then it [00:15:20] just opened this bridge for me to serve families across the nation.

Rory: Okay. So, but that’s like 10 years [00:15:25] later. So. So you’re saying for 10 years you were serving families like [00:15:30] one at a time.

Karen: Drive to this school district, drive to this junior high. You can [00:15:35] Pringles get to this school district, have a Red Bull, do it again tomorrow,

Rory: and the, and the parents are hiring you.

Karen: [00:15:40] Yes.

Schools are not wanting me to come in and, you know, turn over the [00:15:45] apple cart for some reason.

Rory: So the parents are hiring you to help navigate and apply the [00:15:50] law, make sure the school’s applying the law, create a plan, right. For their kid. And that’s absolutely, but then when [00:15:55] schools get shut down, you’re like.

Oh, well that just disappeared overnight. And that’s really when you [00:16:00] leaned into the, to, to social and the internet.

Karen: No, it, it, it didn’t disappear. It exploded it. So [00:16:05] now I’m serving families in the Kodiak Islands and Miami-Dade County on the same day.

Rory: What you knew [00:16:10] up until that point

Karen: Yeah,

Rory: absolutely. Was like gone.

Karen: Yes.

Rory: And then all of a sudden [00:16:15] it’s like, oh, it’s not gone. Yeah. It actually just exploded.

Karen: Yeah. Yeah.

Rory: And that’s ’cause you like grabbed the [00:16:20] microphone and the ethernet cable, but like. You still didn’t have a business. So did you have a, I [00:16:25] mean, you didn’t have a business, your business model was

Karen: My business model gone, was like, I’m just gonna tell all these people.

And [00:16:30] then I started doing these little, um, trainings inside of a LaQuinta [00:16:35] on the freeway and you know, eight or five people would come.

Rory: Three. Great speaker has a LaQuinta story. No,

Karen: LaQuinta. Yeah. [00:16:40] That’s a

Rory: part of the

Karen: Yeah. Yeah. No food. But, um, burnt coffee. Uhhuh. Yeah. Yeah. [00:16:45]

Rory: So you were hosting trainings? Yeah.

Okay. So, so you’re on social, so your whole business model now [00:16:50] is gone.

Karen: Yeah.

Rory: Um. You take the mic, you start [00:16:55] talking, and then you realize, okay, I’m just gonna start selling. You are already doing a business [00:17:00] to consumer model.

Karen: Right?

Rory: And then you just thought, okay, I’m gonna basically do more of like an [00:17:05] education versus like a, like a consulting kind of relationship.

Karen: Right? So I wanna train other special education bosses. [00:17:10] There’s eight and a half million children in America with an IEP. We need advocates. [00:17:15] Advocates don’t exist for kids with disabilities. We need them. And so I’d go train, you know, eight [00:17:20] people on the weekend with my binder that was 74 inches tall.

’cause I’d love a printout.

Rory: [00:17:25] Mm-hmm.

Karen: And they were like, oh, this is overwhelming. I can’t do it. I was like, why not? What’s overwhelming about it? [00:17:30] And so everything that I like is big, but if you are gonna serve people, people do not buy what they need. [00:17:35] People buy what they want.

Rory: Sure.

Karen: And if you don’t know what they want and are able to give it to ’em [00:17:40] in ways that are palpable and actionable, then you’ve just motivated them.

Right. [00:17:45] Information. Um, with no application is motivation. I don’t wanna motivate you, I want to equip you. [00:17:50] So I worked on refining that, which is, is that I do for training. [00:17:55]

Rory: So, so what’s your business, what’s your actual business model today? Because I, again, part of the [00:18:00] story, the story is just inspiring what you do and, and who you do it for.[00:18:05]

Also, I think it’s such a great example of how anybody [00:18:10] who has been faced with pain a problem, a setback, [00:18:15] you know, a heartache. Like I don’t think you would’ve designed your life initially to [00:18:20] say, oh, my son’s gonna have autism. We’re gonna struggle through this. But then there’s this beautiful [00:18:25] movement that comes out of it.

Yeah. Um. You’ve turned that into a movement and [00:18:30] into a business, uh, impact and income. So then, so then what, what was the business model? [00:18:35] Was it just classes? Like basically you’re going on social and you’re saying, buy a ticket. Come, come to this class and [00:18:40] I’ll teach you the system.

Karen: Yeah. I’ll, I’ll make you a MiniMe.

Yes. And that was, it was not, it [00:18:45] was, you know, it’s hard to lumber through families with a child with a disability that want, might wanna be [00:18:50] an advocate. It’s hard for them to get a babysitter. It just had a lot of, you know, barriers. And [00:18:55] so, um, you know, I started Special Education Academy about five years ago and [00:19:00] I just said, well, I’ll go live every Monday night.

I’ll just go live. I always like say these things and I’m like, oh, who’s gonna do [00:19:05] that? That’d be you, Karen. And so I’ve gone live every Monday night for five [00:19:10] years and it’s an hour training. Special education academy that has a good ring to it. [00:19:15] Right. And I thought all of these parents would log on and join the academy.

That did not happen.

Rory: [00:19:20] Huh?

Karen: 75% of the people that I train are school employees.

Rory: [00:19:25] Wow.

Karen: For this big mouth college dropout.

Rory: So [00:19:30] there’s several things there.

Karen: Yeah.

Rory: You are saying, first of all, you’ve been going [00:19:35] live.

Karen: Mm-hmm.

Rory: For an hour.

Karen: One hour

Rory: for free,

Karen: for free. [00:19:40] Every, it’s not, it’s not free. So the Academy is a membership?

Rory: Ah,

Karen: yeah. The Academy is a membership. It’s [00:19:45] $97 a month, but it’s live an hour, about an hour and a half every Monday.

Rory: So it’s [00:19:50] 97 bucks. Mm-hmm. But they, you put four hours of live training every month. Yeah. And you’re [00:19:55] addressing topics and

Karen: S series. We archive them. Now there’s over 400 hours of [00:20:00] pass trainings.

We open it up for questions. Whatever question you’re having, because every seven days you [00:20:05] need some support in special education. ’cause this is not like, oh, we’re gonna go look for a car, we’re gonna look for a [00:20:10] house. It’s an emergency room. Mm-hmm. Special education’s the emergency room. We have to get it right right [00:20:15] now.

Rory: Um, and so that there, there it is. So that’s the business [00:20:20] model is a hundred bucks a month. Usually

Karen: go live for an hour, four times a month. [00:20:25] It’s so simple. People are like, no, no, but really what do you do? I go live, and you know what Rory, I don’t wanna say this to [00:20:30] everybody, but it’s on an Android. I use an Android ’cause I’m not gonna celebrate the fall of the Garden [00:20:35] of Eden, but that’s another training on a $50 Joby.

I go live on my phone. I [00:20:40] don’t edit it, I don’t cut it. I don’t know how to do all that. I don’t know how to put something in the chat, but I do know [00:20:45] how to bring a message to people that are desperate for these truths.

Rory: Come on. [00:20:50] So they, so then how do you. What system do you [00:20:55] use for to collect their money?

And like where, where are they going live? Because you’re not, so I was thinking you were [00:21:00] going live on social. You’re not doing that.

Karen: It’s a Zoom platform, right? It’s a Zoom. So you join, so you go to [00:21:05] Special Education Academy, you go to training, you join us,

Rory: and then you start email ’em. Here’s the link for this week.[00:21:10]

Karen: Yeah, it’s very fancy

Rory: Uhhuh.

Karen: Yes.

Rory: Um, that’s amazing.

Karen: [00:21:15] It’s very,

Rory: and you just start doing, and then people come and go, like

Karen: do

Rory: their month

Karen: in, goes out. Yes. And sometimes, you know, if it’s a July 4th or [00:21:20] something, I might take off too. It’s like I miss them, they miss me. We are this amazing family [00:21:25] that resources each other.

We can trust each other. Um, ’cause there’s a lot of [00:21:30] mistrust between families and school districts and it’s about bad [00:21:35] information. It’s not about being malice, right. It’s bad information. We don’t know. There’s a [00:21:40] reason that surgeons don’t operate on their own child. Right? And here we [00:21:45] all are, are trying to make up something and fill out software.

It’s not about software, it’s about [00:21:50] a student. Right. And so the reason I wrote the book is it’s the seven pillars [00:21:55] that I use, whether it’s my child or any other child or any of the thousands of advocates that I’ve [00:22:00] trained nationally, that after you have this, you could literally take a piece of paper and write the IEP, [00:22:05] right?

And we were so busy checking boxes in software, we forgot that this [00:22:10] plan is as important as a prescription. When you have a prescription, it doesn’t say, just [00:22:15] grab a handful when you feel like it. It’s very specific for your need. [00:22:20] Epic IP is super specific for that child’s need,

Rory: and [00:22:25] so it’s a, it’s a consistent system.

Karen: Yeah.

Rory: That creates a customized plan for [00:22:30] each family. Each student,

Karen: yeah.

Rory: As they go through this, how do [00:22:35] you get the clients. How do you, what’s your, what, what’s the, what’s [00:22:40] the sales process like?

Karen: It’s no sales. Say it with me. There’s no sales [00:22:45] process. There’s no team, there’s no outbound, there’s no inbound.

It’s just, [00:22:50] it’s speed and volume. I, I heard this guy a few years ago, you might have heard of him, Gary Vaynerchuk. [00:22:55] He was talking to this other guy, Mr. Wonderful, and he said in 2021, if you are not on [00:23:00] TikTok, you are an idiot. And I’m a lot of things. Idiots, not one of them. And so [00:23:05] I just started going live and now we put out 52 pieces of content every [00:23:10] 24 hours across seven platforms.

Because you know what? [00:23:15] People need the information. I could spend time, I guess, making it fancy and pretty [00:23:20] and fade in and out in a carousel and drop this. People just need the information and people care [00:23:25] about two things, good audio and phenomenal content. Hmm, and so many [00:23:30] people that I would love to help grow their businesses are so busy.

Getting ready to get ready [00:23:35] and perfect is never done, and done is never perfect. And whatever your message is. [00:23:40] People need it now. Not when you’ve got it all shiny and pretty. [00:23:45]

Rory: So you are going live on social to attract, yeah. To build, to [00:23:50] build the customer base.

Karen: Absolutely. Yeah.

Rory: Okay. So you went, so what’s that?

What’s that schedule look like?

Karen: [00:23:55] Every Monday for an hour at 5 45 Central standard time I go live [00:24:00] on TikTok. On my Android because I don’t know how to make it work on a laptop. [00:24:05] And then one of my, uh, partners is on a Zoom link on another laptop. She [00:24:10] reads the questions on the live for TikTok ’cause they come fast and I answer them question, [00:24:15] answer, question, answer, question, answer.

’cause that’s about all people can tolerate. Question, [00:24:20] answer, and we get about 22 to 29,000 people every Monday [00:24:25] night popping in and out.

Rory: 20,000 people every Monday [00:24:30] just popping in with a question.

Karen: Well, they pop in and out of your live, but when we close it out, we have over a [00:24:35] hundred questions still not answered because that’s what people want.

They need their an question answered [00:24:40] right now. And so then I have a VA and she cuts it up, question, answer, question, [00:24:45] answer, and we post that. And so probably in an hour I can [00:24:50] answer 80 questions.

Rory: You’re doing a one hour live on Monday [00:24:55] night for free. That’s just an open q and a for the whole world. That is free.

Karen: Free.

Rory: And [00:25:00] then that. Points to buying the, a monthly subscription with a, a more [00:25:05] closed

Karen: program. Yeah. Well, it’s, we don’t have to buy it. You can just join the academy for free. Of course. It’s free, it’s free for [00:25:10] everybody. Even my first husband. So, um, you just go to Special Education Academy and you join us for a [00:25:15] month.

It’s free. If you wanna stay, we’re glad to have you.

Rory: Oh, okay. So the first month you give the first month free.

Karen: [00:25:20] Yeah. Yeah.

Rory: And then after that they, they start paying.

Karen: Yeah. And so we go live at about 6:00 PM [00:25:25] and then I say, I’ll see you guys in the academy at eight. It’s a very complex [00:25:30] model. I don’t know if you understood that.

We go live at six and then I say, I’ll see you at eight in the [00:25:35] academy. You probably wanna write that down. Save this. So yeah, and then now it’s [00:25:40] progressed and we have a VIP at 7:00 PM for people that are full-time advocates that have taken our [00:25:45] other products, bought our digital courses. We have a two day course, we have a six week mastermind [00:25:50] for people that want to use our processes, protocols, and pathways to be amazing.

[00:25:55] And you know, the need just keeps growing.

Rory: So you’re, you’re serving a, a, a [00:26:00] segment of that, of those customers in a deeper way.

Karen: Yes.

Rory: But, but the main thing is just free [00:26:05] live and then see it eight a simple monthly, like, hop on here and come on, rock and roll. Surely it didn’t [00:26:10] start with 20,000 people. So that’s built, built up.

That’s built it, built up, built up over, [00:26:15] over time. I think that’s so fascinating. I mean, that’s just such a simple [00:26:20] model.

Karen: It’s the same model. We didn’t, we didn’t change it because if it works, you should probably keep [00:26:25] doing it.

Rory: Uhhuh.

Karen: Yeah,

Rory: but it just, the, the, the idea that you can just go live [00:26:30] and, I mean,

Karen: yeah,

Rory: there’s no team.

There’s no, it’s like you have a phone

Karen: with the, the app. [00:26:35] I’m a one-armed wallpaper hanger. Houston, Texas. I make sure that I have plenty of hairspray and of course, the correct [00:26:40] lipstick and just answer their questions. People are desperate in this space. Whatever space [00:26:45] you’re serving, they need your knowledge.

They don’t need fancy and shiny. They [00:26:50] need your help. Now,

Rory: can I, okay, so here’s a emotional [00:26:55] fear question.

Karen: Mm-hmm.

Rory: I know there’s a lot of people listening who do [00:27:00] something where they feel guilty charging for it.

Karen: Mm-hmm. [00:27:05]

Rory: Because they go. I just want to help people. I just wanna serve people, [00:27:10] but. I need to make money, but like also I feel weird charging.

[00:27:15] It’s like I work in a church and I can’t tell, or I help people with their marriage or, um, have you ever [00:27:20] had any of that? Like, and how do you get, how do you get past that where you’re like, Hey, I’m, I’m helping, I mean, [00:27:25] I’m helping kids with disabilities. Like, but you, you, I mean, you’re also not charging [00:27:30] a ton of money, but has any of that ha like how.

Navigating that. It’s

Karen: funny that you said that. ’cause my husband used to always say, [00:27:35] is this a PM or an fm? Is this a paid ministry or a free ministry? Right. [00:27:40] And so I have, um, if you just go to my Instagram account, I have 10,000 pieces [00:27:45] of content. So I’ve been giving away and I will continue to give away.

I love doing [00:27:50] that. But people that pay, pay attention. Um, and so this [00:27:55] drives. It helps people wherever they are. Um, you know, I’ve spoken at [00:28:00] churches before and people are like, are you charging us for prayer? No. The prayer’s free with purchase, right? [00:28:05] I’m charging you for my expertise and time. That would be very normal when you go get your car [00:28:10] worked on or talk to your realtor.

You’re paying for their expertise and time. [00:28:15] So, um, it’s grown into a business. I have full-time partners now. I educate [00:28:20] advocates, I do professional developments. We go into juvenile justice centers, hospitals. [00:28:25] The need is endless, and I’m doing my very best to serve them at the highest [00:28:30] level.

Rory: How do you draw the line between what you give away for free and what [00:28:35] you charge for in the academy?

Karen: Um, I, there’s no line. Hopefully one day we’re putting out 200 pieces of [00:28:40] content a day. It is my good pleasure to serve somebody. That [00:28:45] was where I was. You know, I, I get to go a lot of places and travel and when somebody comes up to [00:28:50] you and goes, are you sp? And I’m like, yes, I am. She goes, would it be really weird if I took a picture [00:28:55] with you?

I’m like, well, you’re crying in public, so get over here. Right? So when we go somewhere and [00:29:00] somebody is. I am a mom from Michigan, and I did what you said in the videos, and it was a [00:29:05] bumpy meeting, but I held my position and now my daughter’s reading. Like, that’s everything. [00:29:10] I mean, you can’t outgive, God, I can’t outgive, you know, the, I would, I would never [00:29:15] forget what he’s done for me and my family.

Um, and it’s a blessing to walk in this space. It’s [00:29:20] very polarizing. People either adore or adore you or they’re recalled by you. [00:29:25] I’ll take ’em both. If you’re gonna be online, you are going to be loved and not loved. [00:29:30] Get over it. You’re not that big of a deal.

Rory: Yeah. How do you, I mean, you know, you talk about, [00:29:35] you talk about God, you talk about Jesus, you say, I, I, you know, I, I we’re gonna do this.

We’re not gonna [00:29:40] do that. You’re very direct. Do you not, you just [00:29:45] don’t worry about haters. They don’t bother you. Like, what’s the, I mean, how do you [00:29:50] deal with that?

Karen: So, I’m semi grown and I’m, I’m 60.1 years old, heavy on the [00:29:55] 0.1. People are going to like you or not like you. That has nothing to do with me. [00:30:00] My job is to get up every day and try to walk through with the spirit of excellence, and I’m gonna try to do a little bit better [00:30:05] tomorrow.

People are hurting. That’s why they type. But if that’s going to stop [00:30:10] you from giving out your message, then you’ve already lost. The [00:30:15] accolades and the put downs. Neither one of them are probably really accurate, but I know that if I get up [00:30:20] every day doing what God’s called me to do, that I can put my head down on my pillow and know it’s been a good [00:30:25] day.

Rory: This is so cool. And there’s, I know there’s people listening right now that go I, I. You [00:30:30] know, I have what they might think is a very random or, you know, narrow specific [00:30:35] thing.

Karen: Yeah.

Rory: And it’s like there’s so many people in the world, like you can access them at the push of a button. [00:30:40] Like push the button, go life.

There’s

Karen: a button at the bottom, it says, plus that means you’re adding to somebody’s life. [00:30:45] Yeah,

Rory: I love that.

Karen: But you’re so busy thinking you’re attractive. You know what’s [00:30:50] attractive about you, the anointing on your life and the way you share your [00:30:55] message. That’s what’s attractive.

Rory: So. Why did you join [00:31:00] Brand Builders Group?

Like, how did you, like, how did you find us? Where were you? Because like you, [00:31:05] you’re, you are crushing it and, uh, I mean, you got way more followers than I do. Like you, [00:31:10] you’re, you’re, you’re, you’re, you’re living this purpose. Yeah. You’re helping people. You’re making [00:31:15] money. What was like, how did you even.

Karen: Hear about us.

Yeah. Shout out to Omar l [00:31:20] Tari.

Rory: Oh yeah.

Karen: Uh, he’s amazing. And he is amazing. I had downloaded on my Android, um, [00:31:25] a video. Then you can watch it on the, on the plane. And I watched your video and I thought. [00:31:30] This is who I’m supposed to work with. I don’t know this guy, but this is who I’m supposed to work with.

And, uh, I [00:31:35] got on a call and I joined and it’s just been like a perfect puzzle piece. [00:31:40] And it was exactly the, um, masterclass and information. But the other thing is [00:31:45] you hold us to a high accountability. This is not some cheerleading group. We’re not some fun [00:31:50] club. And it’s about you want us to get to work and, um.

I love the [00:31:55] accountability that comes with having my monthly strategist, um, because we don’t know if we [00:32:00] get tomorrow. You need to put your head down and get to work. And this was the first [00:32:05] group that I’d ever been a part of and I’ve been a part of amazing groups and masterminds and phenomenal [00:32:10] thought leaders and influencers and negotiators and business people.

But this was the first [00:32:15] time that I was like, you need to be big, be grown up and finish what you [00:32:20] said you were gonna do.

Rory: You know, I, as you’re talking, it is occurring to [00:32:25] me that I think a lot of programs are structured towards, [00:32:30] like, how do you make money fast or how do you grow fast?

Karen: Yeah.

Rory: And I think you and I [00:32:35] share a similar orientation that it’s not about that it’s going.[00:32:40]

The clock is ticking on the people who need help and they need help right now. Like I’m [00:32:45] driven by that same urgency. Mm-hmm. Like the urgency is not like, how do we make money today? It [00:32:50] like, it’s going like, there’s somebody out there and I don’t know how long I’m gonna be [00:32:55] here, and they need help right now.

Karen: Right.

Rory: And every moment that passes that I am not [00:33:00] getting in front of them and helping them. It’s like I, I feel like I’m, I feel like I’m [00:33:05] underutilizing my life. Like I’m, I’m literally. Abandoning y you [00:33:10] know, my anointing. Yeah. I’m, I’m not, and and I we do share that.

Karen: [00:33:15] Yeah.

Rory: And

Karen: I remember

Rory: have that.

Karen: Yeah. And we started the book process, um, and, you know, [00:33:20] amazing team at Mission-Driven Press.

And, um, we had, um, some. Pieces that [00:33:25] I needed to finish. And, um, somebody said we could push it back another 60 days and I said, we [00:33:30] cannot push it back another 60 days. Whoever is supposed to receive this amazing love [00:33:35] story that I wrote them, this amazing testament, they need to have it right now.

Rory: Look at this thing, the epic [00:33:40] IEP, a powerful playbook for parents, educators, [00:33:45] and advocates navigating the special education process.

This is [00:33:50] so clear. So specific. Um, you [00:33:55] know, you know, one of our big philosophies is the moment you become clear on who you’re serving, like [00:34:00] every other downstream decision becomes clear. And, and I’m just, I’m amazed because it’s just like, [00:34:05] this is just, I mean, I know there’s 8 million, you said 8 million kids in the us

Karen: just in the US

Rory: alone.

Now you [00:34:10] have a big international audience, but like thousands of people are pre-ordering this book. Yes. [00:34:15] And it’s, it’s like. There’s not a lot of books on the, I mean, there’s not, not a lot of [00:34:20] books on the subject. There’s,

Karen: there’s actually none. So there’s two kinds of books in this space, which I [00:34:25] love.

There’s law books and evaluation books and protocols and rah, rah, rah, that are hundreds [00:34:30] of pages long. And then there are books about the parent versus the school. There are not [00:34:35] two sides of this table. There is one side, there’s a child with exceptionalities [00:34:40] that need some services at school to be an amazing, ridiculously amazing adult.[00:34:45]

We can do that when we do, when we write an epic IEP.

Rory: Yeah. That’s the other thing. I mean that, that, [00:34:50] that phrase that you say, you got it on the cover here. This is so cool. So hiding behind the, hiding behind the cover. [00:34:55] When we get it right for the child, we get it right for everyone. That is the other thing [00:35:00] about just the service orientation of this.

Yes. To go like. [00:35:05] Stop being afraid of what people are gonna say about you. Stop [00:35:10] being concerned about getting the, the editing. Perfect. Stop. Yes. None of that [00:35:15] has to do with helping the child. None of that has to do with you helping your customer. And [00:35:20] it’s like when you stay focused on serving that audience, it’s like.

[00:35:25] The rest just comes out and there’s an audience for everything. There’s bodies for

Karen: everything. There’s audience for everything. I remember when I first [00:35:30] started with brand builders and my strategist, who’s ridiculously amazing, Casey Doddle, and he said, [00:35:35] I love you, but. Your website? How do people find you?

I’m like, I don’t know. [00:35:40] I don’t know. I didn’t have a great website. I didn’t have a great message. I didn’t have a landing page. I didn’t have a [00:35:45] funnel. I don’t know what those things are. Um, I had a back comb and some hairspray, but when you have a [00:35:50] passionate mission. That you are being authentic. People will find you, they will [00:35:55] search you out.

And how selfish to take your, your message to the grave. [00:36:00]

Rory: All right, I have two last questions. Well, three. Okay, so, so one, I wanna talk about [00:36:05] your expertise for just a second. If there happens to be somebody listening who. [00:36:10] Is involved in a school or a family or a situation where there is [00:36:15] a child with disabilities and they’re living through that right now.

What is the kind of the one biggest [00:36:20] encouragement that you would have that you go, you just need to know this, like as you’re [00:36:25] stepping in. You know, you’ve now lived this personally. You’ve [00:36:30] walked through it with other parents, you helped other schools advocates, like,

Karen: yeah.

Rory: What does that [00:36:35] person need to know if they’re sort of in that moment that you were, when you first kind of got the news?

Karen: [00:36:40] Yeah, you are. You’re doing fine. You’re doing a great job. God placed this child in front of you, [00:36:45] in your class, God placed this child, um, that you’re the principal of this child and God. [00:36:50] Place this child in your home to raise and stop beating yourself up. Kids [00:36:55] don’t come with instruction books. If they did, I left all three of mine at the hospital.

You know, [00:37:00] parents of a child with a disability have an 88% chance of getting divorced.

Rory: Oh man.

Karen: And so [00:37:05] the great thing about this thing called Online Connection and you know, um, [00:37:10] reach, is that now we have a community for families with disabilities that had no community. If you and I [00:37:15] have a child and something goes wrong with a tennis coach, we are down there at the field house.

People with a [00:37:20] child with a disability, they can’t leave, they can’t go somewhere. And now we have this community [00:37:25] to resource and equip each other and let them know. Mama, you’re doing a great job, grandma. You’re doing [00:37:30] a phenomenal job. New teacher. Thank you so much for serving kids at the highest level.

Rory: [00:37:35] Where do you want people to go to get a copy of the Epic IEP?

Karen: I want you to go [00:37:40] wherever you get books and get one for you and get one for a friend and get a box of Kleenex. [00:37:45] There’s some emotional stories in there. At the end of every chapter, there’s a checklist for parents and advocates and [00:37:50] educators, because we are all at the table, but we have a different expertise and purview.[00:37:55]

But I say unequivocally, this book is going to change your life.

Rory: All right, so then [00:38:00] my last little question for you is. What would you say to the mission-driven messenger out there? [00:38:05] Who feels the calling but is struggling with the like, [00:38:10] I don’t like social media. I don’t wanna sell to people. I don’t, [00:38:15] I’m not.

Sure. Like I, I don’t know how to write a book. I don’t know. I don’t know what the, all [00:38:20] I know is I have a calling, but I don’t know how to do anything else, and I don’t know how to do anything of what all the rest [00:38:25] of this is. I just have a calling, but I’m struggling to like, get it [00:38:30] out there, whatever that means.

Karen: Make a commitment that you are the six o’clock news. [00:38:35] Just do the news. If you don’t wanna go live, record it on Zoom, record it on something, [00:38:40] but put it out there. You can, you can build the plane while you’re flying it. And [00:38:45] I, I, I, I, I doesn’t sound like it’s about somebody else. It’s about you. This isn’t about [00:38:50] you.

The gift that is inside of you, the messages inside of you was never for you. [00:38:55] It is for somebody else. And, and you just need to make the [00:39:00] commitment and not waiver from that. And I would say respectfully, stop treating this as a [00:39:05] business. That’s the biggest malarkey on the, on the, on the internet. Treat this as your job.[00:39:10]

’cause if you don’t show up at your job, you are fired. If you treat this as a [00:39:15] job and make the commitment and don’t waver waffle or water it down, the reach [00:39:20] that you’ll have and the way that you bless people will be, uh, limitless. [00:39:25]

Rory: Karen, I’m, for whatever it’s worth. I’m so proud of you.

Karen: Thank you.

Rory: Uh, [00:39:30] you, you know, I think you haven’t been in Brandville as that long, right?

Like [00:39:35] six months, 16 months. Yeah. But, but you have this knack for, I’m gonna find a [00:39:40] way over, under, around, through. And like, even in your personal life, I think this journey has really shaped and [00:39:45] cultivated that in you. If you’re just like, I’m just not gonna be stopped. Yeah. Like, I’ll find, I’m gonna [00:39:50] find a way and I love that.

And, and I, I love. [00:39:55] Your orientation towards service Yes.

Karen: Is

Rory: so pure.

Karen: Yeah.

Rory: And I, [00:40:00] I love the sense of urgency that you have. Yes.

Karen: Yes.

Rory: Of the people who need [00:40:05] to, who need your help.

Karen: They need it. Yesterday and, and even when I’m training people [00:40:10] and I have lots of diverse people that I train, I love, love, love them all.

I’m obsessed with [00:40:15] people. I’m sort of the. Cocker spaniel Octopus. If I like you, you’re like, oh, that’s a lot of Karen. And the [00:40:20] first thing that I say in my trainings, and some of them are quite the investment. If you are not here [00:40:25] to serve the IEP committee, please know that that’s fine, but please get a full [00:40:30] refund because I train people that are there to serve the IEP committee.

Rory: [00:40:35] Well my friend, we are encouraged by you. I personally am inspired by you. Go get a copy of the [00:40:40] epic IEP, everybody. And, uh, Karen, thanks for the inspiration and the [00:40:45] insights and uh, keep going friend.

Karen: Thank you [00:40:50] [00:40:55] [00:41:00] dear.

WWK Ep 008: He Was Dead for 6 Minutes. What Hal Elrod Did Next Changed Everything

Hal: [00:00:00] That night, my car was hit, hit on by a drunk driver at 70 miles per hour. I was found dead at the scene. [00:00:05] I broke 11 bones, uh, suffered permanent brain damage, which I still struggle [00:00:10] with today. Um, and, uh, was told I would never walk again and spent six days in a coma. [00:00:15] Uh, miraculously I maintained, unwavering.

Rory: You were actually, you were actually dead for six

Hal: minutes. My heart stopped for six [00:00:20] minutes on the side of the freeway when they, they, the car was keeping me alive, all the pressure from the car and when [00:00:25] they, they’d use the jaws of life, it took them an almost an hour to cut the car apart and pull me out.

And [00:00:30] when they did, I had been losing blood for an hour and just, you know, bled out essentially.[00:00:35] [00:00:40] [00:00:45]

Rory: Hey, I am so excited to [00:00:50] introduce you to one of the most inspiring people that I know personally. This [00:00:55] man has made a huge impact on my life. My mom is a huge fan. Um, [00:01:00] all my friends are huge fans, and he is someone who is not only a colleague, but someone [00:01:05] who is become a dear, trusted friend. We share the stage at events together.

We’re in [00:01:10] masterminds together. I respect him so much with the, the highest level of esteem. [00:01:15] Uh, this gentleman has sold four and a half million copies of his [00:01:20] book. His books have been translated into over 40 languages. He has over [00:01:25] 380,000 people in his Facebook group for his book. [00:01:30] Uh, has an app that has thousands and thousands of five star reviews.[00:01:35]

He has died, uh, died for real once and nearly died another time. We’re [00:01:40] gonna talk about that. This is no other than Mr. Hal Elrod, author of The [00:01:45] Miracle Morning, creator of the Miracle Morning Series. Uh, there’s a documentary on his life, a [00:01:50] movie that you can check out. And anyways, Hal, thanks for being here, buddy.

Hal: Rory. [00:01:55] You’re welcome. Thank you. And what an introduction. You should be a professional Hall of Fame speaker or something.

Rory: There [00:02:00] you go. That’s pretty good. Maybe there’s hope for me.

Hal: Yeah.

Rory: Um, so I want [00:02:05] to know, you’ve had, you’ve had a lot of, so that bio talks about, you’ve done a lot of [00:02:10] awesome things. You’ve, a lot of crap happen to you.

Hal: Yeah.

Rory: You’ve had a lot of [00:02:15] seriously hard stuff. What do you think are the [00:02:20] most, what do you think are the most difficult things you’ve gone through that have actually shaped like [00:02:25] who you are today? Like, uh, ’cause I know you’ve, you’ve, you’ve been through a lot of them. Yeah. [00:02:30]

Hal: Yeah. Um, I’ll tell them quickly ’cause I tend to go into a lot of detail in my stories and, [00:02:35] uh, just, just so we can go into anyone that you want.

But, um, the first one I, I didn’t talk about [00:02:40] until the last year. I didn’t really even realize this was a part of my life and, and who I am as [00:02:45] much as it is, which is the death of my sister. Um, when I was eight years old, my baby [00:02:50] sister, uh, I woke up on a Saturday morning and my mother was screaming across the hall, my baby, [00:02:55] my baby God, don’t take my baby.

At eight years old, I ran across the hall and my mom was [00:03:00] pushing on the chest and breathing into the mouth of my, my little 18 month old sister. [00:03:05] And, uh, Anne Marie was her name, and she passed away that morning. And at eight years old, you know, it’s [00:03:10] like I, I like, I don’t fully comprehend death, and this is very weird.

I don’t [00:03:15] understand the emotions that I’m feeling and the ones that my mom’s feeling. Within six months, my [00:03:20] mother led a support group. She started a support group for other parents who had lost children. And so I didn’t realize it until I was [00:03:25] going through therapy in like 2020, uh, dealing with some difficulties after chemo, some PTSD, [00:03:30] but as a therapist asking me about my childhood, I realized, oh, I think that’s weird.

The seed was planted that [00:03:35] like, when you go through adversity, you take your, your adversity, your pain, and you find [00:03:40] purpose in it. And when you do, it uplifts you, it uplifts others. It, it becomes actually a, [00:03:45] a, an asset of benefit to, to humanity. So that seed was planted there. And then fast forward 12 [00:03:50] years later, um, I was driving home after giving a speech at a Cutco conference.

Uh, I survived, or that night [00:03:55] my car was hit head on by a drunk driver. At 70 miles per hour, I was found dead at the scene. I broke [00:04:00] 11 bones, uh, suffered permanent brain damage, which I still struggle with [00:04:05] today. Um, and, uh, was sold. I would never walk again and spent six days in a coma. Uh, [00:04:10] miraculously I maintained, unwavering.

You were actually, you were actually dead for six minutes. My heart stopped for six minutes on the side [00:04:15] of the freeway when they, they, the car was keeping me alive, all the pressure from the car and when they, they’d use the [00:04:20] jaws of life it to come in almost an hour to cut the car apart and pull me out.

And when they did, I [00:04:25] had been losing blood for an hour and just, you know, bled out essentially, um, six days in [00:04:30] a coma, flatline twice more. And when I was, came outta the coma, I faced this unimaginable [00:04:35] reality that I broke all these bones. I’m never gonna walk again. And I just, I accepted the worst [00:04:40] case scenario.

If I never walk again, I’ll be at peace with it. But. I’m going to maintain unwavering [00:04:45] faith that I can walk again until proven otherwise, right? Like, and I thought, like, if you know, I’m gonna, I [00:04:50] prayed about it every day. I visualize walking. I like, I meditated on all of my [00:04:55] cells healing. Um, and three weeks after the crafts, the doctors came in with routine [00:05:00] x-rays and they said, we know how to explain this, but your body is healing and [00:05:05] we’re gonna let you take your first step in therapy today.

And even me as an optimist was thinking like a year of [00:05:10] healing. It was three weeks later that I took my first step and my dad has a picture of it, which is, I’m so glad he [00:05:15] captured, you know, that moment. Um, and then you fast forward nine years later, uh, very common [00:05:20] 2008 financial crash. I, my business failed.

And, uh, my house that I’d just bought and, [00:05:25] and landscaped and so much pride, a year and a half prior Inc. Took it away, couldn’t pay [00:05:30] the mortgage, and that’s when I created this thing called, became called the Miracle Morning. [00:05:35] And, uh, which turned my life around so profoundly that it felt like a miracle. And then last but not least, you [00:05:40] fast forward, uh, what, nine years after that, give or take.

Um, as a dad [00:05:45] with a 7-year-old daughter and a 4-year-old son, I was given a 30% chance of [00:05:50] surviving. I was di diagnosed with a very rare, aggressive form of leukemia. And at the time of [00:05:55] diagnosis, my heart was failing, my kidneys were failing, my lungs were failing. Uh, and the doctor said, [00:06:00] I have one to two weeks to live if I don’t start chemotherapy.

And I didn’t wanna do chemotherapy ’cause [00:06:05] most people die from the chemotherapy. So it’s kinda like you’re, you’re darned if you do, darned if you don’t. Right. It’s like you’re [00:06:10] dead in a week or two without chemo, but if you do chemo, it’s gonna wreck your body, wreak [00:06:15] havoc on, you do irreparable damage, but there’s a 30% chance you’ll live.

Mm-hmm. [00:06:20] You’re like. These are my, these are the two options that I have. And so [00:06:25] between faith and every natural holistic practice that I could possibly implement into my [00:06:30] life, um, I’m grateful to say that I, and the Miracle Morning was actually a big part of my cancer journey. [00:06:35] Like, utilizing that to manage my mindset and my mental and emotional wellbeing and, and even [00:06:40] physical self-healing, if you will.

Um, and, uh, I’m here to, to share it all today. [00:06:45]

Rory: mean,

Hal: dude, that’s

Rory: a very intense five minute. That’s like, that is [00:06:50] a lifetime. I mean, I, here’s what I think if the rest of your life is gonna be smooth sailing, ’cause you’ve, you’ve had many, many lifetimes. [00:06:55]

Hal: Knock on wood, man.

Rory: Let’s hope.

Hal: Well,

Rory: praise the Lord for [00:07:00] what has come out of that and what, how you’ve been shaped like and, and the [00:07:05] impact that you’ve now had on millions of people.

And I, I hope people, I, I, [00:07:10] you know, I obviously know all of that stuff as we’ve known you for a long time.

Hal: Yeah.

Rory: But I [00:07:15] think there’s a couple really key things about that, that people need to see. One is that like. [00:07:20] The pain that you’re going through is in [00:07:25] many cases, God’s way of shaping you and making you, and molding you into the [00:07:30] person that you one day are gonna be to help other people.

And you exhibit that and model [00:07:35] that as good as anybody I’ve ever met. And it’s, that part is beautiful. Um, you [00:07:40] know, I, I don’t, I don’t think God, like causes horrible things to happen, but like he can redeem [00:07:45] anything. Yeah. And that has certainly been your story. So The [00:07:50] Miracle Morning is where this all starts.

Yeah. You write a book, that book has sold like three and a half [00:07:55] million copies.

Hal: Yeah.
Rory: And then you’ve had all these other series, and I want to talk about some of the business side of that later. [00:08:00] Yeah. Because I, I’m super fascinated with how you’ve done the international stuff and like the co-authoring.

And [00:08:05] I think that will be interesting. The audience, you know, to me the, the core of the, the [00:08:10] story is the character that you’ve developed, that you’ve built to help you build a personal [00:08:15] brand. Talking into the Miracle Morning. [00:08:20] Is there a part of the Miracle Morning that you wish people understood better [00:08:25] or something that you, you think they don’t really get the full [00:08:30] gravitas of?

Like the, of like the whole, whole system?

Hal: Yeah.

Rory: Or just something that’s been like [00:08:35] extra powerful for you that, you know, maybe people don’t [00:08:40] realize it in, in terms of the whole sequence and step.

Hal: Yeah, I think that the premise of it is [00:08:45] what’s important to understand. ’cause you hear Miracle Morning and you think, oh, okay, so a you know, I need [00:08:50] to be a morning person.

Or this is about a morning routine, which it is, but it’s a means [00:08:55] to an end. And the end is becoming the person that you need to be to create everything [00:09:00] that you want for your life, right? It’s having a daily personal development practice each day to [00:09:05] start the day in a peak, physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual state.

And develop your [00:09:10] mindset, the beliefs that you need, the habits, the skills, the knowledge, right, to become a [00:09:15] better version of yourself. And, and the premise of it started with a Jim Rohn quote, like that was the whole reason [00:09:20] this I created a morning routine was Jim Rohn said, your level of success, [00:09:25] and I actually like the word fulfillment better.

Um, but so let’s say your level of fulfillment in each area [00:09:30] of your life will rarely exceed your level of personal development. And in other [00:09:35] words, I quantify that. So on a scale of one to 10, everybody wants level 10 fulfillment. I wanna be as [00:09:40] happy and healthy and wealthy as I possibly can be. And I had to like look in the mirror when I heard that [00:09:45] quote.

This was 2008, economy’s crashing. I’m in debt. I’m, I’m in, you know, in a bad spot. And I [00:09:50] go, okay, I want level 10 fulfillment, but what’s my level of personal development? Because if [00:09:55] my personal development or my success won’t exceed it, I need to make sure that I’m [00:10:00] developing myself at the highest level each day.

And my answer was like, I think for. Most people would [00:10:05] be, like, I say two, like I’m, you know, I do a little bit of, I dabble in it here and there. I read books here [00:10:10] and there. Um, but I had nothing consistently. And so I just looked at what are the most, what are [00:10:15] the most timeless, proven personal development practices that the world’s most successful people have sworn [00:10:20] by for centuries.

I’m not looking for the new app or the new program, or the, I’m like, what, what the, [00:10:25] what works? And I was looking for one practice and I ended up with a list of six. [00:10:30] It was, and these are the SA now through, you know, iterating and brand building. It became an [00:10:35] acronym. Savers, S-A-V-E-R-S. Those are the six practices for [00:10:40] assesses for silence.

It’s your prayer, your meditation, starting your day in a calm, peaceful way. [00:10:45] The A is for affirmations, not the goofy kind that, you know, like, like I’m a money magnet, [00:10:50] but like affirmations that are rooted in truth that are reinforcing your commitment. Um, in [00:10:55] fact, one thing that I’ve, it’s only in the last year that I thought of this like came up for me, is what you affirm [00:11:00] repeatedly becomes your reality.

Right. So if you affirm I am blank, fill [00:11:05] in the blank, I am worthless. I’m amazing, I’m capable, I’m whatever. Right? Um, so for me, I’m affirming what I’m [00:11:10] committed to, why it’s a must for me, what actions I’m gonna take there. Like

Rory: Yeah. Like, I mean, neuroscience has proved that, [00:11:15] again, again, the brain does not delineate Yeah.

Between positive and negative. It just bleeds whatever you tell it most [00:11:20] often.

Hal: Yeah. Yeah.

Rory: And, uh, yeah, so that’s key. So the affirmations is critical. Part of the [00:11:25] morning routine.

Hal: It’s, to me, it’s the most important part of the mirror. The savers is the affirmations or the anchor. ’cause I’m [00:11:30] affirming what I’m committed to.

So it’s like, okay, what actually, why are you even doing this? What do you want, what are you committed to as a dad, as a [00:11:35] husband, as a CEO, as a right in your finances and your health and your fitness. Like, [00:11:40] that’s where I start by affirming all of that and then getting clear on. Affirming, why is it a must for you?

Which [00:11:45] actions are you gonna take to ensure that you are moving toward that outcome that you say you’re committed to? And if every day you’re affirming [00:11:50] that a, it’s top of mind, there is no, oh man, I forgot. I really wanted to do that. And then I got away from it and [00:11:55] got distracted. It’s like, no, it’s in writing.

And I read it every day and then, and, and it’s like, I wanna make a million [00:12:00] dollars. Yeah, that’d be fun. It’s like, no, no, no. Why? Oh yeah, I wanna put my, I wanna retire my dad, and I wanna put [00:12:05] my mom like, right. Like, you, you have the reasons. It’s just the, it’s simple components of like, [00:12:10] if you’re gonna achieve something, you gotta know what it is and be committed to that, why it’s important.

And then know what are [00:12:15] the actions you’re gonna take. And so for me, I have affirmations for each goal and each role [00:12:20] in my life. The V is for visualization. And I would just say like the world’s greatest athlete to visualize [00:12:25] the E is for exercise. You don’t have to go to the gym in the morning, but move your body for even a minute, right?

Get the blood flowing, [00:12:30] move your body. Exercise some jumping jacks. Stretching. I do a five minute workout every morning [00:12:35] where I do one minute of plank, one minute of back, bend. One minute of downward dog. [00:12:40] One minute of jumping jacks. I forgot the minute. But anyway, so, um, and then the R [00:12:45] is for reading and the S is for scribing, which is a fancy word for journaling, but the J would’ve made the [00:12:50] acronym Same.

Awkward. Yeah, same word J

Rory: This is better.

Hal: So we got, and that’s my wife’s idea by the way. She’s like, get up the [00:12:55] source. She’s my, she is my muse. I have realized, I’m sure AJ is your muse in many ways, right?

Rory: Yes. [00:13:00]

Hal: Um, so those are the practices and uh, and, and the point being you don’t [00:13:05] have to be a morning person, you just have to, uh, one of my co-authors said it.

Well, [00:13:10] he said it’s not about starting, it’s not about waking up early, it’s about waking up better.

Rory: Mm-hmm.

Hal: Right. Like you could do Miracle Morning at [00:13:15] noon.

Rory: Right. Well,

Hal: and I think it’s, you know, for our audience in particular,

Rory: there’s this, this [00:13:20] joke around the National Speakers Association that says most speakers have [00:13:25] written more books than they’ve read.

Hal: I love that.

Rory: And I think. You [00:13:30] know, agent and I were just talking about this recently that we’re like, golly, like [00:13:35] we are products of the personal development industry. Yeah. We are the biggest personal [00:13:40] development junkies There are. Yeah. Even now, uh, you know, Chris was actually talking to me about this the other [00:13:45] day.

He, he’s like, you would never watch a course. I’m like, I am watching a course, course every, [00:13:50] every moment of my life I’m in somebody’s course learning something. Learning something. Yeah. Doing, doing [00:13:55] something. And it’s just like, I think a lot of personal brands, it’s [00:14:00] easy to overlook, to be like, oh, I’m the one writing the book.

I’m the one speaking on the stages.

Hal: Yeah.

Rory: [00:14:05] I don’t need to be doing, but it’s like, and then you overlook like, am I doing the fundamentals? Totally. Am I, do [00:14:10] I, am I ha do I have a vision? Do I, I have affirmations. Am I conscious about like, [00:14:15] you know, what I’m reading and all, all that kind of stuff. ’cause clearly that’s been a big part of.

Your personal [00:14:20] brand journey also.

Hal: Yeah, and I’m, I mean, and I’m guilty of that in that I’ve done the Miracle Morning [00:14:25] probably 6.2 days a week for the last 17 years. I mean, I do it seven days a week unless [00:14:30] I’ve got like late night with my wife or concert or whatever. But otherwise, I’m, it’s almost every day.

[00:14:35] Um, and including when I’m traveling. But I also will realize sometimes I’m like, wait, I [00:14:40] actually haven’t visualized in like three months. Like, you know, so it’s like my brain says I’m doing [00:14:45] it every day, but I’m like, I’m actually get, we all do that. We get away from the basics, right? Like you said, do I have [00:14:50] a vision?

Do I, it’s like, well, I used to, but then I got where I wanted to go, and then I kind of let some of the, you know, [00:14:55] you kind of drop some of the plates that you’re spinning. Um, yeah. So I, I, I do my New York morning every day, but for sure [00:15:00] it’s not perfect.

Rory: Yeah. And I mean,

Hal: if you’re gonna become a better teacher to [00:15:05] other people, it’s like you have to

Rory: become a better person.

You have to be a bigger vessel.

Hal: Yeah.

Rory: You gotta increase. [00:15:10] Increase your, your capacity. Um, what are some of the. What are some [00:15:15] of the doubts you’ve had about yourself in building your own personal brand? Mm. And [00:15:20] being, you know, a speaker, coach, teacher, you, you know, podcaster, [00:15:25] all the things, the author. What are some of the like, limiting beliefs that you started [00:15:30] with, that you have had to coach yourself through to be able [00:15:35] to build the, you know, the empire that you guys have built?

Yeah, I

Hal: think that the [00:15:40] big picture answer to that, um, there’s lots of specifics, but the big picture was [00:15:45] if, and, and I’ll, I, I go through the phases of like, you know, the, the stair stepping of growth. [00:15:50] So when I was 19, um, up until that point, I had never [00:15:55] achieved anything remarkable. Meaning, like, I, I didn’t get good, I wasn’t an [00:16:00] achiever.

I didn’t get good grades. Mm. Um, I wasn’t an athlete. I never played organized [00:16:05] sports. Um, I, uh, I wasn’t popular. I got bold, right? Like, so I was, I had [00:16:10] nothing in my brain that was like, you know, like there’s the kids that we know growing up and you’re like, oh, they’re gonna [00:16:15] be super successful, right? Like, they get, they’re, they’re everything they do, they’re the best at, like, I wasn’t [00:16:20] that, and it was my second day of my Cutco training when my mentor Jesse said, [00:16:25] right, y’all, you’re about to enter into your fast start.

It’s the first 10 days and if you sell a thousand [00:16:30] dollars, you get a trimmer. And we’re like, dude, I want a trimmer. Let’s go.

Rory: What’s a trim?

Hal: It’s, it’s like the, it’s [00:16:35] like the most popular everyday, just a small little like tomato knife. Like that’s you use every day, right? Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. [00:16:40] Um, thank you for asking that.

Um, if you sell 2000, you get a spatula spreader, which is like a spatula with [00:16:45] a knife. You’re like, oh my God, I love this bread. Yeah, I mean, and it’s funny ’cause you’ve just been through two days of Cutco training. [00:16:50] You’re like, you love this stuff. And uh, and then he goes all the way to the top and he is like, now the [00:16:55] highest level is the record.

It’s the most anyone has ever sold in the last 50 years. In the [00:17:00] first 10 days. He goes, it happened to have been broken last week by a gal in Bakersfield, California, and I was [00:17:05] in Fresno. You’re, uh, uh, uh, um. An hour and a half south. [00:17:10] And, uh, he said, if you break that, you get everything on this board. Plus we’re gonna take you to dinner in a [00:17:15] limo, plus I’ll take you skydiving.

Like, and I’m like, this is it. And so for the first time in my life, [00:17:20] and if anyone’s listening right now, we all have this limiting belief of separation between [00:17:25] people that we view as superior to us in some way. Right?

Rory: Hmm.

Hal: So you’re looking on stage [00:17:30] and you’re like, oh man, they’re more, they’re better looking than me.

They’re older than me, they’re [00:17:35] wiser than me. They have more experience, they have more money, they have more talent. They’ve written 15 books, yada [00:17:40] yada. Rory’s got a company. We create separation between us. We, we, like, [00:17:45] literally as humans look for the reasons why we’re not as good as other people. [00:17:50] And in that, and I had done that my whole life, and in that moment I went, wait a minute.[00:17:55]

And I don’t know if I would’ve had, it’d been a girl that lived like in proximity to where I could visualize, wait, Bakersfield, that’s [00:18:00] like Fresno, that’s not like Beverly Hills. Like, that’s like a

Rory: Right,

Hal: right. They call, you know, no offense to Fresno, it was like the arm pit of [00:18:05] California and Bakersfield is like the other armpit, right?

So that’s not my words, but I actually love [00:18:10] living in Fresno. But anyway, so uh, I go, why not? Why not me? If that [00:18:15] girl in Bakersfield could sell $12,338 in 10 days, [00:18:20] why not me? And uh, and so that, that was the [00:18:25] first limiting belief that I overcame. And I think it’s one of the most important. And what it [00:18:30] is, is which

Rory: is that which is that someone else has something that you don’t have and [00:18:35] that’s why they’re more successful

Hal: than you are.

It’s, it’s trading separation for evidence, meaning [00:18:40] not, oh, their separation. ’cause they have more blank than me, more ability than I do [00:18:45] looking for commonality, looking for, oh, they did it. That’s evident [00:18:50] that I could do that in greater. I think Jesus said that, right? You do. You know, you shall do what [00:18:55] I did in greater.

Like that belief that other people is just showing you what’s [00:19:00] possible, not showing you that what you can’t do, ’cause they’re better than you. And I think that’s the most important fundamental [00:19:05] commonality. They’re a human being and I’m a human being. Everything else [00:19:10] is just details. Right? Everything else is possible beyond that.

Mm-hmm. [00:19:15] And then, so in that moment, I mean, how did you get past that? It was like a [00:19:20] spatula and then it just clicked. So, so, so then, so I went to Jesse after training and I said, uh, [00:19:25] I was like, I thought he was gonna be so excited and be like, wow, how you’re gonna do it? I said, Hey Jesse, [00:19:30] I’m excited to tell you something.

I said, I wanna break the record. I wanna, I wanna sell, I wanna beat that gal. [00:19:35] Christina’s 12,000 303 38 bucks. And I thought he’d be, I thought he was gonna jump up and down and, you [00:19:40] know, I like envisioned him spinning me around and, you know, and he goes, he just nodded his head, kind of [00:19:45] cocked his head and he goes, okay.

He goes, Al let me ask, I wanna ask you a question. [00:19:50] How often do you think I hear that in training? I run training every week. How often think I hear that somebody wants to break the fast [00:19:55] start record and I just like put on heels. I go, I don’t know. He said, every [00:20:00] week, guess how many people have done it since I’ve been a manager?

I said, I don’t know. He said, [00:20:05] none. He said it, it’s easy to get excited, but if you want to break the record, [00:20:10] I you can, I can help you, but you have to be committed at a level you’ve [00:20:15] never been committed to anything in your life. And again, he’s telling this to a, a c [00:20:20] student, not an athlete. Lazy, undisciplined.

And I, I’m like, [00:20:25] uh, and at that point I just, I, I admired this guy and so it’s interesting how [00:20:30] things work, but if like I was in isolation and no one knew, I’d be like, Nope, nevermind. I’m not, [00:20:35] I’m not ready for that. But because I didn’t wanna let him down, I go, I’ll do it. I’ll commit. I’ll [00:20:40] do whatever you tell me to do.

And thanks to his accountability, right, it reminds me of like, if. [00:20:45] Wanna build a brand, right? Get a coach, get Rory ba. You know what I mean? I mean, and I’m not, I’m not just saying that, but [00:20:50] seriously, if it wasn’t for him and his support and daily, I had to call him every morning [00:20:55] before I got on the phone and made my calls, I had to call him like after every single appointment.[00:21:00]

’cause he understood that my mind, that I would be dealing with rejection and [00:21:05] adversity and self-doubt. And he knew that I wasn’t equipped at that point, at [00:21:10] 19 years old, to, I didn’t have the tools, but he did. So I called him. I mean, I talked to him [00:21:15] 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 times a day. And he managed my mindset through the ups and the [00:21:20] downs and the no sales and the rejection.

And, you know, and on the, my last appointment on the 10th day, I broke, [00:21:25] you know, broke that record.

Rory: Yeah. See when you’re talking, for some reason, I’m being reminded of [00:21:30] one of my all time favorite quotes, and it’s from Mike Tyson. He says [00:21:35] everyone has a plan punch until, until they punch in, punched in the face, punch face.

Yeah. And [00:21:40] that is how building a personal brand is. Right. Like, there’s not a person that we meet that’s like, I wanna [00:21:45] be a bestselling author. I wanna, I wanna be, I wanna speak on the biggest stages. Yeah. I wanna have a huge [00:21:50] podcast, you know, and it’s not always I wanna make money or be famous, but it’s like, I wanna make an impact.

Yeah.

Rory: And [00:21:55] people, people somehow think that just because they wanna make an impact, it should be easy.

Hal: Yeah.

Rory: And it’s like, [00:22:00] no, it’s extreme work. Yeah. And commitment and dedication over an

Hal: [00:22:05] extended period of time,

Rory: over an extended period of time. Like you have to earn the right [00:22:10] Yeah. To impact other people.

Hal: Yeah.

Rory: And I don’t, and people, I, you know, I don’t, they don’t, [00:22:15] they don’t realize that, you know, recently I was talking, um, at one of our events and I said, you, [00:22:20] you have to decide that your calling matters more than your comfort. [00:22:25]

Hal: Mm-hmm.

Rory: Right? Like, to build your personal brand is, is to go like. I’m, [00:22:30] I’m willing to deal with the rejection.

I’m willing to deal with the uncomfortable, you know, learning new [00:22:35] things and figuring new stuff out. And it’s like, uh, Jasmine Starr was, uh, at an event we had recently speaking, [00:22:40] and I said, you know, how, how much do you enjoy social media? She’s like, I hate it. [00:22:45] I hate social media. Yeah. And I’m like, you’re the queen of social media.

She’s like, I hate every minute of it.

Hal: Wow.

Rory: She’s [00:22:50] like, but that’s not why I do it. I do it because it, it’ll grow my business. Mm. And it was such an epiphany, [00:22:55] like everyone in the room gasped, like, couldn’t believe it was like sacrilege that she would say [00:23:00] that.

Hal: Yeah.

Rory: Going. Oh, she doesn’t actually enjoy this.

She’s doing it [00:23:05] because she’s, and she’s like me. But it’s that separation. We all go, well, the reason she’s big on social media is ’cause she [00:23:10] loves it and she doesn’t have anything else to do with her time.

Hal: That’s why I think about everyone. I see it. ’cause I don’t like social media. I’m like everyone, I’m [00:23:15] like, oh, I wish I liked it like they did.

So, that’s such a great point,

Rory: Uhhuh. Um, that’s really powerful. So I [00:23:20] wanna ask you about, you, you, you, you mentioned, you’ve been talking about affirmations and you mentioned discipline. [00:23:25]

Hal: Hmm.

Rory: So, you know, we met around the days of my first book, take the Stairs, which was all about [00:23:30] self-discipline. And I wanted to talk to you about the difference between identity [00:23:35] and self-discipline.

Hal: Hmm.

Rory: And which one do you think matters more [00:23:40] or. Or do they work together? Or like, uh, what’s the, what is [00:23:45] your view on establishing someone’s identity versus like [00:23:50] creating discipline? ’cause ’cause affirmations to me is more like identity. It’s [00:23:55] more of like who I’m gonna be. But then the whole, you know, savior’s routine is like, that’s a discipline.

Yeah. [00:24:00] Like, you’re sitting down and doing those, the practices. So how do you reconcile those two concepts? Or what do you think [00:24:05] about in your own journey and with the, you know, the millions of people that have gone through Miracle Mourning?

Hal: Yeah. To [00:24:10] me it’s a yes. And, and they’re done simultaneously. Uh, and it brings [00:24:15] up, I was at a father son like adventure retreat the other day.

And, uh, yeah, it was cool. [00:24:20] And they talked about courage and we were talking about all these attributes of becoming a man, you know, a [00:24:25] young man and, uh, and courage. And they talked, they pointed out that courage is not the absence [00:24:30] of fear. Mm-hmm. It’s, it literally can’t exist without fear. ’cause it’s doing the thing you’re [00:24:35] afraid of doing.

Mm-hmm. And thus you are mustering up courage. And so what that makes me think about [00:24:40] is. Self-discipline, uh, self-discipline is doing the thing that you don’t feel [00:24:45] like doing otherwise. It doesn’t take discipline if you feel like doing it, it [00:24:50] requires zero self-discipline.

Rory: Mm-hmm.

Hal: And so I think that people, and then you bring in the identity piece, they’re like, [00:24:55] I’m just not self-disciplined.

It’s like no one is, you know? [00:25:00] And, and at least not to start. And I was just talking to our friends, Sean Johnson and Andrew East, and we were [00:25:05] talking about this, about how my identity deep seated in my subconscious from when [00:25:10] I was a kid is I view myself as lazy. I view myself as undisciplined. [00:25:15] And it’s like, but, but anyone from the outside goes, well, no, no, dude, you do all [00:25:20] the things.

But for me, it’s, I don’t feel like doing them. [00:25:25] And so that makes me think that I’m not disciplined ’cause I don’t feel like doing ’em. So I’m actually, [00:25:30] as I’m, we’re talking about this, I’m even kind of coaching myself like, well, no, [00:25:35] discipline isn’t feeling like doing them. It’s doing them even though you don’t feel like it.[00:25:40]

Rory: Yeah.

Hal: And you know, uh, John Maxwell, who I know, you’re, I think he has, doesn’t he have a book with you guys? Yeah. With mission driven [00:25:45] masters? Yeah. Uh, he, he didn’t publish a Mission Driven press, but he’s a client. Yeah. We a client. Yeah. Our

Rory: last launch.

Hal: So [00:25:50] John Maxwell, uh, one of the greatest lessons I learned from his book, failing Forward, is, [00:25:55] uh, to act your way into feeling.

Rory: Mm-hmm.

Hal: He said, nobody [00:26:00] feels like doing what they need to do, but the people that are disciplined go, [00:26:05] I don’t feel like it. And then they just get up and they walk through the door.

Rory: Yeah.

Hal: [00:26:10] And so, um, I, I really took that to like, to working out and I go, wow. The [00:26:15] secret to getting in the best shape of your life.

Don’t, don’t think about it as working out. ’cause that [00:26:20] that’s gonna make you not do it. Discipline. All you need to do is pack your gym bag the night [00:26:25] before. Have it sitting out, set an alarm that just says, get in the car with your gym bag.

Rory: [00:26:30] Mm-hmm.

Hal: And I go and, and like, ’cause that’s, that takes almost no discipline.[00:26:35]

But if you grab your gym bag. Easy. Just grab the gym bag off the coffee table. And then [00:26:40] you get in your car. Well, now there’s momentum. Where are you Probably gonna drive [00:26:45] to the gym. And then you’re gonna like, ah, then you’re gonna grab your gym bag off the couch and you’re still, [00:26:50] you’re still negative self-talk.

Like, I don’t feel like this, I don’t really wanna [00:26:55] work out. But you’re, you’re doing it, you’re, you’re maintaining this way. Then you get outta the car and you walk in the gym. Well dude, [00:27:00] now speakers are blaring. The energy is palpable. People are [00:27:05] running like, you know, you’re okay. Now your energy and motivation are going up.

And then you’re [00:27:10] like, I got a gym bag in my hand. I guess I’ll go get dressed. Then you go get dressed and you’re like, well, now I’m just, I [00:27:15] mean, I’m might as well walk over to the treadmill. I’m here. Then you go to the treadmill, then you’re like, ah, 10 minutes go right? [00:27:20] And then all of a sudden, and then now you actually feel more motivated.

You just get in the best shape of [00:27:25] your life. One picking up of the gym bag at a time. Not one workout at a time. Don’t, don’t think that [00:27:30] far ahead. That’s gonna discourage you from even packing the gym bag. So it’s like when you [00:27:35] think about, again, act your way into feeling. And so for me, my alarm clock for the Miracle Morning, [00:27:40] that’s how I got myself to become a morning person.

This is like a huge hack. And it’s what worked for my coaching clients at the time [00:27:45] that said, I’m not a mor. When I first created The Miracle Morning, it was just for [00:27:50] me. I didn’t know I’d ever teach it to ano a single person. It wasn’t a book idea. And then, I mean, it was like, [00:27:55] it was like God having one of my coaching clients, a, a a few, like a month or two after I [00:28:00] started doing My Miracle Morning.

Every day when my coaching clients goes, Hal, do you have a morning routine? I keep [00:28:05] hearing about, like, I read up morning routines. I go and I’m just beaming. I go, oh [00:28:10] my gosh. I like, I’m so excited to tell you about this. And I, and I tell her all about Miracle Morning. She’s like, [00:28:15] I’ll try it. I’ll try it for a week.

I said, I have to give you one tip because she’s like, I’m not a morning person. I said, the big, the the [00:28:20] game changer was I moved my alarm clock from my bed from my phone or my bedside table [00:28:25] to my bathroom sink. If you can, and this is for everybody listening, if you’re not a morning [00:28:30] person, this is a hack.

And if you alarm goes off and you can wake [00:28:35] up and reach over and turn it off while you’re still half asleep, good luck mustering up any [00:28:40] discipline to do what you need to do. But if you have to get out of bed, if you’re upright and now you’re [00:28:45] moving your body, you’re, you’re 10 x more awake than you were when you were [00:28:50] fumbling to the, the, the, the tableside.

So get outta bed. And then for me, it’s right next to the wa the bathroom [00:28:55] sink. And I have a clo cup of water there, which is like a, a reminder that I’m gonna hydrate and then my [00:29:00] toothbrush brush teeth, and every minute you’re awake, it’s that much easier to stay awake. Right. [00:29:05] So within a couple of minutes of washing my face, brushing my teeth, now I’m upright.

It’s like, oh, I can stay up for the [00:29:10] rest of the meal.

Rory: Yeah. The power momentum is so important. Yeah. One that there was, uh, you know, there was a time in my [00:29:15] life where I was about 40 pounds heavier than I am now. Wow. And, and one of the greatest hacks I [00:29:20] had, which helped me lose 45 pounds was I made a deal with myself, which [00:29:25] was.

I don’t have to work out, I just [00:29:30] have to go to the gym. Yes.

Hal: That’s

Rory: it. And if I, if I get to the gym

Hal: Yep.

Rory: And I’m there and I [00:29:35] don’t wanna work out, I’m allowed to turn around and drive home.

Hal: Dude, I loved

Rory: it. It was a total, [00:29:40] like, just deal. And then it’s like, and I think there was one time where I actually did turn around and I was like, I [00:29:45] was like, sick or something.

I’m like, I really just, but it was like every time, by the time you’re there,

Hal: [00:29:50] yeah.

Rory: The decision. Good. The decision you, the living epitome

Hal: of a theoretical lesson that I just taught. Yeah. [00:29:55] That’s so,

Rory: that’s so, that’s so good. Yeah. So, um, let’s talk [00:30:00] about Miracle Morning. And this is like, I mean, this thing’s become a movement.[00:30:05]

How have you done the business of this? Y you know, I’m, I, I, I [00:30:10] wanna, like you, you’ve, how many books are there in the series? How did you structure the [00:30:15] co-authoring? How have you done the international deals? Like Yeah. You’ve taken [00:30:20] a book, which by the way, if people don’t know this is worth saying, was self-published.[00:30:25]

That was a self-published book. So,

Hal: until two years ago.

Rory: Until two years ago,

Hal: yeah. The first 11 [00:30:30] years it was self-published.

Rory: Yeah. So like, you know, millions of copies. As a self-published [00:30:35] author, how did you start structuring deals and like co-authoring things and [00:30:40] like licensing this, I guess if this is the term, because it it made it a worldwide movement.

Hal: Yeah. So it [00:30:45] kind of start at the beginning in terms of the launch of the book. So I self-published the book, uh, it took me [00:30:50] three years to write. I’m not a fast writer. It took me three years. Um, and I had no publisher with a deadline. So [00:30:55] it was like, I was just writing, you know, each day. Like, and uh, when I was [00:31:00] coming out with the book, I had a, I had like advanced readers and I just, the feedback I was getting, [00:31:05] even through the three years that I wrote it, ’cause I was teaching it in interviews at speeches [00:31:10] to my clients.

So I had tons of feedback of this is changing my [00:31:15] life.

Rory: Hmm.

Hal: And so that fueled me of like, I, and this is important. I have a [00:31:20] responsibility to share this message. That, that’s literally why I did it. I [00:31:25] never, first of all, never in a million years did I imagine that it would sell a million [00:31:30] or 3 million co.

Never. I taught it to my coaching clients. I taught to the one, and [00:31:35] for her at work, she’s like, oh my gosh, I’m running, I’m, I remember Katie Haney is her name. She like, she was the first [00:31:40] person, like, I’m not a morning personnel, but I routines good, Katie. Yeah, she’s crushes. And so, um,

Rory: because if you had failed [00:31:45] Katie, this may have never happened.

Hal: Literally, I wouldn’t because, because she came back to her call and I was like, she’s like, oh my gosh, how [00:31:50] I did it? I moved the alarm clocks to the room. I’m up every day, I’m running. I’m like, I’m doing it. [00:31:55] And I go, oh, wait a minute. I got, I’m gonna teach this to my other 13 coaching clients. So I teach it to [00:32:00] all of them.

Most of them resist saying I’m not a morning person. And then, um, they, 13 outta [00:32:05] 14 came to the next call and they’re like, oh my gosh. Um, it’s, it’s working. It’s amazing. So then I go, okay, [00:32:10] if it worked for them, and it worked for me. And none of us were morning people. None of us identified as morning people.

[00:32:15] This could work for anyone. I have to write a book. Okay. So that, that’s, so, it’s like I have a responsibility to [00:32:20] share this with the world.

Rory: Mm.

Hal: Um, so that, that’s an

Rory: important

Hal: huge switch that has

Rory: to [00:32:25] flip for all of us. Mm-hmm. Like when you’re doing it for fame, you’re doing it for money, [00:32:30] you’re doing it ’cause you think you’re supposed to, like you’re doing it ’cause someone else told you, da dah, dah, dah, dah, [00:32:35] you’ll burn out.

Hal: Yep.

Rory: Like the only sustaining drive that it, [00:32:40] that it, to do what it takes to make it, I think in this business is, it’s like that switch has to flip [00:32:45] where you go, I feel obligated to share what I have with other [00:32:50] people. Yeah. And then

Hal: once that switch flips, it’s like, okay, now we’re talking. [00:32:55] Yeah. And it’s, I mean, and I’m living example of that in terms of Miracle Morning came [00:33:00] out on 12, 12 12, December 12th, 2012.

It’s 13 years later. [00:33:05] I still do interviews. It’s not self-published. I don’t make very much money on the book anymore. Right. Like, I make pennies on what I used to make, [00:33:10] but. You

Rory: sold it to a

Hal: experience. I sold it to a publisher, but it’s my mi it’s my life’s [00:33:15] work. I will, I don’t see me stopping for the rest of my life.

So anyway, back, [00:33:20] back up. Um, so book comes out and I’m setting my goals for the year and, ’cause it came out [00:33:25] December 12th, 2012. So I’m like, all right, set my 2013 goals. And I just, [00:33:30] I go, I’m gonna change 1 million lives one morning at a time. I’m gonna try to sell, reach a million [00:33:35] people with the Miracle Morning this year.

And it was very naive goal. It wasn’t based on any data. I had [00:33:40] no audience, I wasn’t well known. I had no podcast. I had I, no nothing. [00:33:45] And, uh, but I was like, it’s my responsibility. And I just believe in setting big. I have no [00:33:50] problem. I believe in the Jim, other than another Jim Rowan philosophy, which is the purpose of a goal is not to hit the goal [00:33:55] who it makes of you by giving it everything you have until the last possible moment and [00:34:00] beyond.

Mm-hmm. Right. So that’s, I’m like, I’m gonna give it everything. I have to sell a million copies. And I affirmed that every day. I am [00:34:05] committed to, to do everything in my power. To sell, to change 1 million lives [00:34:10] one morning at a time. That was my mission driven message that inspired me a lot more than sell a million [00:34:15] books.

’cause who, who cares about a mil? Right? Like that wouldn’t motivate me. So my mission was change [00:34:20] 1 million lives one morning at a time. And how close did you get in the first 12 months? This is my, I [00:34:25] love, it’s my favorite stories. So, um, I was 987,000 copies short of my goal. [00:34:30] So I failed by 98.7% [00:34:35] Uhhuh. But I want you to know, I did everything in my power dude.

I was on 152 podcasts and that was [00:34:40] before pod, like there were probably one 10,000 as many podcasts.

Rory: Yeah. That must have been [00:34:45] what That must have been how we very first met. ’cause I was just like, I had just been podcasting for a few years. That [00:34:50] must have been,

Hal: when did you start?

Rory: Well, it was our, at our former company, I had a [00:34:55] podcast that I think I started in like 2012.

Okay. Right. So right in that 20 13, 14, [00:35:00] 15, it was started to grow and I, I bet that’s right the way That’s right about when we met.

Hal: Yeah. And the way I got on [00:35:05] podcasts was my Cutco skills. The way Cutco sold is referrals. You do an appointment and then [00:35:10] at the end, whether you buy or not, I say, Hey, Rory, did you, how’d you like the presentation?

He goes, it’s great. You go, anybody you could refer me to that would [00:35:15] be nice enough to let me show this to them. And so every podcast I did at the end, I’d go, Hey, how was that? They, oh, it’s [00:35:20] amazing. This is gonna, you know, I said, um, I’m really trying to get on more shows and share the Miracle Morning. Who do you [00:35:25] know?

That would be nice enough, maybe a podcaster that would have me on their show, and then I would send them a template to, and like they would, you [00:35:30] know, and so that’s, I got 152 podcasts. I gave 36 speeches across the country for, [00:35:35] I was probably making a couple thousand dollars a speech back then. And I think it was mostly colleges [00:35:40] too.

I was just getting started. I did not have, I didn’t have much money at the time, and so [00:35:45] on a credit card, I paid this PR company to get me on 13 morning television talk [00:35:50] shows. Mm-hmm. Good morning, Sacramento. Good Day, Houston, right? Sure. You name it. Uh, [00:35:55] so I did everything like literally, and I didn’t have kids at the time.

I worked six, seven days a week, [00:36:00] two change a million lives, and I was 987,000 copies short. And here’s [00:36:05] the lesson in that. I mean, there’s a few lessons, but one is be to your point, you [00:36:10] have to be, you have to have a mission, a purpose. I remember setting the goals for [00:36:15] the next year and I go. This doesn’t change my goal, it’s just that my timeline was way [00:36:20] off and I got a calculator.

I divided 1 million times, 13,000 copies a year. Yeah. Is [00:36:25] 77 years, at which time I would’ve been 110 years old.

Rory: Yeah.

Hal: And so I basically, in that moment, [00:36:30] I was like, and I think I wrote my affirmations. I’m committed to change 1 million lives one morning at a [00:36:35] time no matter what. And no matter how long it takes,

Rory: and I have to live to be [00:36:40] 110

Hal: years.

Yeah. 110 years old. And so year two, I did everything again, everything in my power. I sold [00:36:45] 23,000 copies. So it’s like, it’s up a little, but it’s like, it’s still nowhere where I need to need to be. [00:36:50] But I go, this is my life’s work. You know? And, and then it ended up being six [00:36:55] years, uh, to get to a million copies.

And here’s, [00:37:00] here’s the path, and that’s what people need to understand because it’s far [00:37:05] more important, the commitment that you have to do whatever it takes [00:37:10] for as long as it takes. You genuinely believe that it is your [00:37:15] mission to deliver. Like the, I I don’t, I I didn’t come up with the miracle morning, like [00:37:20] God whispered it here and whispered it there and put this person in my life and this person in my life, right?

And, [00:37:25] and so I feel like this is my life’s work. This is my mission. Um, which also made it easier, by the way, [00:37:30] with everything that we’re gonna talk about with like the series and stuff is, you know, ’cause all these opportunities started coming outta the woodwork at [00:37:35] one point and you’re tempted to be like, oh yes, sure, yes, yes.

And at one point I go, I’m saying no to [00:37:40] everything. That doesn’t help get the Miracle Morning into people’s lives. And that’s why we made the Miracle Morning movie. [00:37:45] The Miracle Morning App, 15 books of the Miracle Morning series, right? ’cause like, oh, now I know what to say yes [00:37:50] to. It’s things that help support this mission.

Right? Um, [00:37:55] so lemme turn it back over to you. Remind me of the question or where you want me to go next.

Rory: [00:38:00] Well, I, I think so I was just asking you about how the licensing all happened and the co the co-authors and [00:38:05] how you started to structure like the business side of Yes. Of that. And when’s the right time to like [00:38:10] create a.

You know, a subsidiary title and like when’s the right time to do [00:38:15] international deals and that kind of thing.

Hal: Let’s talk. Yeah, we’ll talk series. So we’ll go, let’s go series, then we go [00:38:20] like international, then app. In that order, I’ll go chronologically. A buddy of mine, [00:38:25] uh, that I used to saw Cutco with Ryan Snow, who is now a top real estate.

He, he ran a real estate [00:38:30] office. He reached out to me and he said, Hey, I have given Miracle Morning [00:38:35] to everybody on my team, half of them. And he goes and I check in with them with accountability like we [00:38:40] used to do at Cutco. Half of them have read the book and are doing the Miracle Morning every day. Half of them are not give or [00:38:45] take, and he said the half that are doing it, every single one of [00:38:50] their sales are up the half that are not, their sales are not up.[00:38:55]

He said, that cannot be a coincidence. Have you thought about doing a [00:39:00] Miracle Morning like a series Miracle Morning for salespeople where you [00:39:05] customize the entire Miracle Morning practice? The affirmations, right? For. A [00:39:10] salesperson. I said, no, or I said, I thought of it, but I don’t know how to do it. I said, [00:39:15] do you want to, you want to co-author a book together?

He goes, sure. So it just super organic. Right. [00:39:20] Then I met Honoree quarter, I think you know honoree, don’t you?

Rory: I do,

Hal: yeah. And I met Honoree because she [00:39:25] wrote a Good Reads review for Miracle Morning, and I, and it just caught my attention. It was so heartfelt and so [00:39:30] sweet. And then I googled her and it turns out she’s the creator of the, the successful single mom book [00:39:35] series.

Now she’s written like 50 books, but back then she had the successful single mom book series. So [00:39:40] I’m, I messaged her. I’m like, Hey, thank you so much for this review. I really appreciate it. Then we end up getting on a call and I’m [00:39:45] like, Hey, how’d you do a book series? Would you mind sharing that with me?

And she tells me, and, and then I go, you wanna do a book [00:39:50] series with me? You wanna, you know, you wanna like help me with this? And so I end up hiring her to help [00:39:55] me. Produce the book series and right, and then, and then it just takes off and then it’s just organic. Where I’m [00:40:00] at Genius Network with Joe Polish, we become friends and he, he decides to Miracle Morning for addiction [00:40:05] recovery.

I have a real estate trainer, Michael Mayer, reach out, say, Hey, miracle Morning needs to be, let’s do real estate [00:40:10] agent one. And now there’s 15 books give or take in the series for college students, for parents and [00:40:15] families, so on and so forth. And here’s what I would say, I have people approach me a [00:40:20] lot, Hey, how do you do a book series?

I have, you know, my book’s out, [00:40:25] been out for six months, how do I do a book series? Uh, and I always ask them, how many copies has your [00:40:30] flagship book sold? You know, a thousand, 2000, 4,000, 5,000, or whatever. [00:40:35] I say, well, let me explain. Here’s my recommendation is that you put all of your [00:40:40] energy into selling a hundred thousand copies of that book.

And then once you do that, [00:40:45] then you. Consider Fran, you know, franchising and creating spinoffs because your [00:40:50] spinoffs will sell a fraction of what the original cells, yet they will require arguably as much effort [00:40:55] to write and create that book sometimes even more. ’cause now you’re managing co-authors and so [00:41:00] on and so forth.

Um, so that’s really what, you know. Do you partner with the [00:41:05] authors or do you just pay them a fee to do it? Or like, so the way that I did it, who write? Are they completely [00:41:10] different? Are all of them completely different? I created a template. Okay. So it’s the first four [00:41:15] chapters. Okay. Um, and with a bunch of fill in the blanks, like [00:41:20] affirmations are important for blank because of blank.

Right. So I have a [00:41:25] template that’s the first four chapters that sums up the entire original miracle Morning, less of my story, more of the [00:41:30] tactics, et cetera. Um, and then the co-author, and then we actually, I take that back. We had [00:41:35] seven chapters pre-written. Uh, the next three chapters are just generic [00:41:40] mi uh.

Personal development that applies to everyone. Like how do you optimize your energy and your [00:41:45] mindset, right? So I wanted to create as much as I could, but also fill in the blanks. [00:41:50] And then they would write, so they would fill in all the blanks to customize the entire book [00:41:55] for the niche. And then the last three chapters would be their original content.[00:42:00]

So that was, and the reason I did that is I wanted to leave as little room for error. [00:42:05] Uh, meaning like, you know, instead of having them write six chapters and being like, oh, this is [00:42:10] too much. It’s all over the place, whatever. Now I will say some of my co-authors were adamant that they wrote that they [00:42:15] only kept the four Miracle Morning chapters and they wrote six chapters.

Rory: Okay.

Hal: Um, and I, you know, I, which [00:42:20] was fine. Um, but my biggest fear when I wrote it, and I think it’s for any author, [00:42:25] right? It’s like, you know, you’re thinking, oh, what if people don’t like this? And what if the reviews start pouring in that this book’s [00:42:30] terrible and I’m an imposter imposter syndrome. That was my fear is like, how do I make this so [00:42:35] it’s not a rip off of the original, where if they’ve read the original, they’re like, oh, this is just like, you know, like the [00:42:40] same.

Uh, and I think we struck a perfect balance. In fact, the average [00:42:45] five star, or the average rating for the series books is, is 4.8 outta five [00:42:50] stars across all 15 books. The original Miracle Morning is 4.6 outta five stars. So people [00:42:55] actually rate the series books higher. Um, yeah. So that was kind of the, the [00:43:00] formula.

And then I would bring on a co-author. I would usually introduce him to Honoree ’cause she was [00:43:05] more helping produce the books on the backend.

Rory: Okay.

Hal: Um, and, uh, so I’d go to an event, I’d meet somebody [00:43:10] and, you know, and, Hey Cameron Harold I met. He is like, let’s do an entrepreneur one. I’m like, great idea.

Meet honoree. And then honoree would help [00:43:15] guide them through this process that we had designed. Um, and then, uh, yeah, [00:43:20] and then they would, you know, we’d promote a, to each of our lists and, and so on and so forth. Oh, and the way I structured the finances, this is important. [00:43:25] When I was creating the first series book, I watched an eeb, pagan interview with Tony [00:43:30] Robbins.

Rory: Okay. And

Hal: Eeb said one of his business philosophies is that, [00:43:35] is to learn to love to get the short end of the stick. He said everybody wants to, as [00:43:40] they want to capture as much as they can. And when I was creating the series, I reached out to two [00:43:45] Chicken Soup for the Soul co-authors and I said, Hey, what, what did you like?

I’m [00:43:50] creating a series. What did you like about it? What didn’t you like about it? What anything you wish were [00:43:55] different that I can take into this, this process? And what they said is, you know, um, [00:44:00] and I, this is not on the record in terms of like, this is my recollection, was that they [00:44:05] didn’t make a lot of money from the books because I think they were traditionally published and then they were getting a little piece of what Mark [00:44:10] and Victor were getting, right?

So I thought, I don’t ever want a co-op, I want this to be a huge financial win for [00:44:15] my co-authors. So I decided that it was going to be 50 50 where they [00:44:20] got 50% of the royalty. I got 50%, and then I split my [00:44:25] 50% with honoree who helped me produce the series so that everybody won.

Rory: Yeah, [00:44:30] I, I remember, you know, I didn’t grow up.

Around money. And one of the first [00:44:35] times that I met a very wealthy, like business person, I remember [00:44:40] he told me at a luncheon, he said, the key to this is to have [00:44:45] a small percentage of a really big pie.

Hal: There you go. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that’s like, that’s [00:44:50] what re always says is I’d rather have, yeah, a small broth, a little bit of a, a watermelon and then a [00:44:55] lot of a grape.

Rory: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So, um, and then what about [00:45:00] international? So, so how do you do international deals and is it different for traditional publishing [00:45:05] versus self-publishing?

Hal: Yeah, like, so again, this is organic the way that it works for me. [00:45:10] So, um, or the way it worked for me, I was at a, an entrepreneurial dinner in San Diego.

Um, [00:45:15] Mike Kenigs was there, do you know Mike?

Rory: Mm-hmm.

Hal: Um, John Asraf was there, John Lee Dumas was [00:45:20] there. Um, I only knew, uh, I only knew a couple of people and, uh, I remember being there. My wife texted me, how’s it [00:45:25] going? And I’m like. Dude, that guy from The Secrets here, like, I’m like, these are, I’m like [00:45:30] this guy named Mike Kig.

I like went to his event last year. I’m like, I don’t know how I got invited to this dinner. I [00:45:35] remember that. And uh, and, and I get introduced to Mike from John Lee Dumas because I’ve been on John’s [00:45:40] podcast and we’re talking about Miracle Morning and Mike or John’s like, dude, household like a hundred thousand [00:45:45] copies of Miracle Morning.

And Mike’s like, what? And he goes, do you have an agent? And I go, no, I’m self-published. He goes, [00:45:50] what? He said, have you thought about leveraging that a hundred thousand into a book deal? I go, I’d [00:45:55] love to, but I don’t know. I don’t know how to do that. I don’t know where to start. He goes, well, you need an agent.

And I have the best agent. [00:46:00] So he introduces me to Celeste Fine. Who’s my agent to this day? Love her [00:46:05] to death. She’s the best. And

Rory: she’s an agent for a lot of our clients.

Hal: Oh really? Yeah. Yes. Mm-hmm. Love Celeste. Um, we set a [00:46:10] call, we talk, you know, often, but, uh, so he introduces us and I remember before the meeting, I was [00:46:15] so nervous, so nervous.

I’m like, she’s not gonna work with me. She represents all these big names. And um, and then [00:46:20] we get on the call and she is like selling me. I’m working with her. I’m like, oh, this is cool. [00:46:25] So I ended up signing with her and she pitches me to New York publishers, um, to [00:46:30] traditionally publish New York Morning, which in my mind was if I wanna reach, because I was at a hundred thousand copies, I’m like, if I wanna [00:46:35] reach a million people, this is the next step.

I’ve gotta be a serious, traditionally published author. Right, right. [00:46:40] And be in stores and all of that. And, and back then, that was actually a lot more true than it is now. This was [00:46:45] 2013, you know, 14. And so we meet with publishers, I [00:46:50] get 13 offers. Uh, the biggest one is for $250,000 advance. [00:46:55] So I to to do the math for folks.

I was selling [00:47:00] upwards of 10,000 copies a month at that point, at $7 a book [00:47:05] in royalties as a self-published author.

Rory: $70,000 a month.

Hal: Yeah. And, and actually I take it back, I [00:47:10] think at that point I was at like $35,000 a month, but significant. Right?

Rory: [00:47:15] Yeah.

Hal: So I go, wait a minute.

Rory: Who says you can’t make money from books, by the way?

Exactly. Right. 35 Gs a month. [00:47:20] Yeah. That’s like, that’s real dope.

Hal: And so I’m doing the math like. So that’s eight [00:47:25] months of what I’m making right now. And then I get paid eight to 12% [00:47:30] for the rest of my life. And I felt ter, I’m a people pleaser, um, by nature. [00:47:35] And so I’m like, oh, Celeste worked so hard to get me these meetings, and like, I feel really bad.

WWK Ep 007: Scaling Your Business Without Losing Your Life

Rory (00:00)
How do you keep growing your business without your life becoming completely chaotic, stressful, and overwhelming? That is the theme of the show today on Wealthy and Well-Known. This is the podcast that is meant to help you build your personal brand so that you can grow your influence, your impact, and your income. As always, I’m joined by my co-founder, co-author, best friend, beautiful wife, AJ Vaden. Welcome to the show.

AJ (00:26)
Welcome to the show. So glad I’m here.

Rory (00:28)
Well, you’re on the hot seat today because we’re talking about scaling a business. You are the CEO of Brand Builders Group. You’re the also the CEO of Mission Driven Press, Nashville Creative Spaces. So we run three different businesses. You manage three P &Ls. We bought a building last year, remodeled the building. We are on this very day moving into a house that we have been building for two years. We’ve lived in three rental homes over the course of that time. We’ve got two kids that are

homeschooled. But we got a lot going on and by we I mostly mean you and I you are the one who’s managing most of that. ⁓ And so we want to talk about how do you increase revenue while keeping your hours flat or even reducing them? And I want to start with that question. I want you to share what your work schedule is and how it is evolved in terms of hours per week you worked when we started in our first business.

AJ (00:59)
Not by me.

Rory (01:27)
versus how many hours per week do you officially work on like work related business stuff now.

AJ (01:35)
Yeah, you know, wow, there’s there’s so much in that introduction. I I think it’s really important to start with just a high level reflection of I most certainly do not have this figured out, ⁓ nor do you. Right. And this is not a conversation today of let me tell you all the things we’ve learned and how you can do it, too. This is a journey.

And there have been some really good lessons we’ve learned and we’ve implemented. There are some that I am most certainly still learning and adjusting. So I just want to preface that this is a journey for all of us. And I think where I would love to see this conversation go today is not about how do you grow revenue and you shorten your hours. I think that’s, in my opinion, the wrong way to look at this.

And instead of going like, what’s the best and highest use of my time in each season of life and what can come out of that. And I think that’s been a difference of viewpoints of why my schedule was what it is and what it is today. And if your main goal and your main focus is just to grow revenue, to scale your business, to grow revenues and increase profits,

then I think you do have the great temptation to overwork yourself because it’s at everything is subservient to the ambitious goals that you have. And I think that’s an unhealthy place to be. And I can only say that because that was me for a really, really, really, really long time.

Rory (03:09)
Tell us that story. Where did we start? How much were you working? What was that ambition like?

AJ (03:15)
I think it was just what you said. It was like what you hear from everyone around you and even what you tell yourself is, you you work harder, set bigger goals, work longer hours, you know, work till your eyes bleed, right? And there’s some of that in that hustle culture mentality is like, don’t get me wrong. We work hard. Like, and I have high work ethic expectations for our team. ⁓ I believe that there is value in hard work. I believe that hard work produces a character

in a person that is invaluable, ⁓ knowing how to work hard and do things right is absolutely a skill set that I believe in, invest in. And this is not saying like, don’t work hard. I work really hard with constraints. And I think the constraints are the part that are really important because if you don’t have constraints on how hard you work, then it becomes all about your own efforts. And you forget that nothing happens by yourself.

And I think when we live in this world of like, just put in more hours, just put in more hours, just work longer, ⁓ what we start to believe about ourselves is that we’re doing all of it. And you’re never the one doing all of it. This is no surprise that I am very big into my faith. And it’s like, I first and foremost realized in my previous life that I was trying to do it all on my own. Is I was all doing it through the lens of striving and proving, which was…

I’ll outwork everybody. I’ll prove to everyone that I am just as a hard worker. I’m just as successful. I’ll produce the most revenue. I’ll make the most money. But that was out of a striving and approving for approval of my peers, right? And it was a ⁓ culture in which it was like I took a lot of pride in having 60, 70, 80 hour work weeks. ⁓ But what doesn’t get talked about is how you have no friends. You have no life.

⁓ You have no time with the Lord. I had no time to have reflection. I had no time to work out. It was work, work, work, work, work, work, And yeah, did that produce a lot of revenue? Sure did. Did it also produce a lot of unhealthy habits and loneliness and no social life and a lot of regrets? Sure did. And so I think those are where the constraints.

are really important. And I think when a lot of people talk about, you just got to work harder, it’s just got to be longer hours, more time at the office. What we don’t talk about is at what cost, right? At what cost is striving for scale and revenue and profits actually going to cost you? And that is missing your kids’ soccer game. It’s missing birthday parties, weddings, anniversaries, baby showers. ⁓

Yo, it ain’t worth it. It’s not worth it.

Rory (05:58)
I think

one of the most defining characteristics between our first business and our second business was the hours we allowed ourselves to work. Our first business, we worked 14 hours a day, maybe not 14 hours a day, but we were working by 8 a.m. definitely till 6 p.m. A very normal day. sure 10 to 12 hours. And I remember the very beginning was six days a week.

AJ (06:19)
10 to 12 hours a day was a very

Rory (06:26)
For me, it was six days a week.

AJ (06:29)
Some of that is to be expected in a heavy startup season. It’s just like, yeah, you should expect to have no sleep when you have a new baby. There are seasons of, it’s going to be intense. You just can’t let those seasons become your life. I think that’s the thing. There are going to be those spurts and seasons of, it’s the end of year. I’m doing budgets. It’s intense. I’m working more hours right now than is normal for me.

Right? Just like if you’re in, if you’re a CPA, tax season is your harvest season, right? It’s going to be more intense, a new baby, all of the things. just, what’s important is not that you don’t do that. It’s that you don’t let it become your life.

Rory (07:10)
Right. And I think when we started Brand Builders Group, our second business, we said, we are going to stop at 5 p.m. and if we can’t achieve something between the hours of 8 and 5, then we’re going to trust that the Lord doesn’t want us to have that. And if he does want us to have it, he will fill in the gap and he will do the rest. And that to me is the most definitive difference

between our mindset and our attitude and the practicality of our schedule between our first and our second business.

AJ (07:43)
Yeah, and I wouldn’t say that it’s a hard stop at five every single day. Some days I end earlier than five, some days definitely linger after five. I think the hardship that happens that I think has to happen with every individual, doesn’t matter what your role is, is what are you doing it for? And I think that’s the most important conversation with scale. What are you doing it for? What are you scaling for? ⁓ I remember at an event that we had at Brand Builders Group a couple of years ago,

someone raised their hand and they were just like, I’m on the path to seven figures. Like, that’s my goal. And I just said, well, tell me why. Why do you want to hit seven figures? And it was like, I thought it was going to be like some profound answer. And he was like, I don’t know. like, I can’t answer your question until you can tell me why you want to hit seven figures. Like, what is it that going to do to you? And I think a lot of us, hit, or we set these ⁓ goals.

But we don’t even know why. And when we get really honest with ourselves, we go, maybe that was for the wrong reason. And I think that’s where it becomes unhealthy is when we set these huge, audacious goals for the wrong reasons. It’s not that you shouldn’t set huge goals. I set huge goals. It’s important. The reason is important. And I think that’s important ⁓ contextually of like, you gotta not set it by yourself.

And I think that’s another thing about scale is, you forcing it? Is your team on board with it? Is your family on board with it? Because those are family and team decisions. Those are not owner, founder, and individual decisions because you don’t scale by yourself. You don’t grow by yourself. That requires a team. It requires your family. It requires your spouse. It includes a unified commitment from everyone around you.

Otherwise, you’re just dragging everyone around with you and there’s bitterness and resentment and tension. And then that’s when stress and burnout comes is because you’re dragging everyone along with you on some goal that you’ve set that you didn’t include anyone else on. So as we’re talking about scale and growing without burnout, ⁓ I think that often happens because you didn’t do it as a team. You didn’t make this goal. You didn’t plan this goal as a family or a team.

depending if it’s a personal or professional goal, and all of a sudden you’re outpacing everyone because they’re like, we weren’t on board with this. And that’s where I think a lot of the stress and the burnout comes from. other thing I would say about the limit to the hours, here’s one of the things that I have learned about the limiting to the hours is something that you actually talked about.

Maybe in Take the Stairs, maybe in Procrastinate on Purpose. I don’t know. They’re blurring together at the moment. But it’s the law of Douglas MacArthur. Right? You want to tell everyone about the law of Douglas MacArthur?

Rory (10:27)
Yes, the law of Douglas MacArthur says the amount of busy work always expands to fill whatever amount of time you allow to be available.

AJ (10:35)
And I think that is why we put limits on our schedule. It was yes, because it was like, hey, Lord, we’re going to trust that if you want it done, it’ll be done. But that was also from recognizing we’ll always find work to do. There’s always an email to check. There’s always a project to catch up on. I will find work to do. Right. That is not the problem. I think for a lot of people, rest is the harder choice. Not doing anything and knowing that you’re still good enough resting.

I think for me, my addiction has always been work. I think we’re all addicted to something. Mine has always been work. It has been something I’ve had to control and temper. It’s something I’m very self-aware of. It’s a discipline for me to not work.

Rory (11:20)
It’s a very mature decision to reach the place where you say, am consciously, deliberately, intentionally okay with achieving less. If working less means I will have less, I’m okay with less. And that took both of us a long time to get to. ⁓

AJ (11:40)
still getting to. So I think it’s just really important to go, the hours you work do not necessarily mean more revenue or scale or more profits. More hours work does not necessarily equate to growth or scale. It just doesn’t.

Rory (11:54)
So tell me the difference between growth and scale because not everybody understands this. And if you don’t understand this, it literally can ruin your life.

AJ (12:01)
Yeah, growth, and this is how we define it, growth means that your expenses grow at the same intensity that revenue does, right? So revenues are growing, which is what everyone talks about, revenue, revenue, revenue. I know, I’ve never met anyone or heard anyone talk about their expenses, right? It’s like growth means that expenses are growing at the same intensity, the same rate as revenue, right? Everyone talks about how do you…

grow a seven figure business, have a six figure launch. I know I’m talking about how many expenses it took to get there. I think that’s important. Expenses and revenue grow at the same ⁓ rate. That is growth. Scale happens when revenue continues to grow, but expenses flatline, right? It’s that pivot point where you no longer need to keep spending, to keep adding, to keep growing. That’s the difference between growth and scale.

Rory (12:54)
Yeah, so that’s, I think that’s a really key distinction. So I have a question. Why do we scale? Why do you scale? Right? You’re presenting an important part of this conversation, which is to go, why? Are you even clear on why are you growing in the first place? Why are you going to make these sacrifices? Why are you going to work that hard? You know, in our case, why are we going to take

the financial risks of investing in people and products and, you know, now buildings and stuff. And so I don’t know that you and I have necessarily talked specifically about that. So, you know, we now have two kids and, you know, we’ve got scaling businesses. Why have you, we, but I’m really curious, like, genuinely, why have you chosen to scale?

AJ (13:42)
That’s

a great question. And I don’t know if it has been a choice per se. I don’t think that I’ve sat down and go, hey, I am intentionally choosing to grow. And I think that’s a decided difference between this business and our last business, which was very much a, will force this to happen. I will might this to happen. I will give it all my will, all my energy to make it happen. And a lot of that was driven from my own striving, my own proving.

And when we started this business, was different. Different in the sense of I felt like God gave us this business. And I can really say for the first time in my life that I’m doing my life’s work. And so I think there’s some of this where, yes, some days feel like work. Don’t hear what I’m not saying. Some days definitely feel like work. But for the most part, this doesn’t really feel like work to me. This is my ministry.

This is my life’s calling and my hope would be that for all of you who are listening that you get the privilege and the opportunity to do that. That you get the opportunity to go, this isn’t work. This is your ministry. This is your life’s calling that you’re doing something that you’re uniquely positioned to do and you get to grow it. You don’t have to grow it. You get to grow it. So I cannot tell you that I’ve sat down and I’m like,

This is how we’re gonna scale. This is how we’re gonna grow. My attitude for the last seven years has been, we’ll go as fast as we can, as slow as we have to. We’ll grow it as big as it can be without forcing it. And so a lot of it has been organic. A lot of it has been natural. And I think a lot of it has been the byproduct of really loving what we do, solving a need that was clearly present in the marketplace.

and getting really clear on who we serve. I think that the growth and scale has been a byproduct of those things, specifically the growth. The scale took more tweaking and some adjusting along the way. But I think a lot of it really is, it’s like when you’re doing the thing that you were meant to do and you’re doing it well, not that we can’t do things better, we can. I’ll be the first to say that. But when you’re doing the things that you’re meant to do and you do them well,

and you really try to serve people, even if it’s not perfect, but you’re trying. I have just always found things do grow things-

Rory (16:03)
Healthy things grow. ⁓ that is, I would underscore and say, another big difference between our first business and our second business was our first business felt more like we were serving a number on a page. We would have a budget season, we would lock in on a number, and all that mattered was like hitting that number. In this business, it’s more like we’re serving a person and there’s two groups of people that I think that we serve.

One is our customers and we go, what can we do that will help our customers succeed faster? And the other thing that I think about in terms of scale a lot is our team is how can we hire better people? How can we pay them more money? How can we create more career opportunity for people inside of our walls here? And out of that serving the people, the business has grown. And just for context, we got to eight figures with our second business in about half the time.

We got to eight figures in our first, our first,

AJ (16:58)
But I think that’s a natural byproduct and I don’t want to sit here and be like we did everything wrong in our first business. No. The reason that we’ve been able to grow faster in our second business is because of everything we learned the first go around.

Rory (17:10)
That’s right. And we built a reputation in that first.

AJ (17:14)
as a beginner entrepreneur would have been impossible for me to gain and learn, being able to sit in the boardrooms and be a part of financial audits. All my finance skills were learned through the mentorship and leadership ⁓ in our first business. So I’m so grateful for so much that I learned there that we have been able to apply here. But I think one of the things that you said something made me think about this is this quote from Craig Rochelle.

I think this is really important. It’s like he always says you can have control or you can have growth. You cannot have both. And that is something that I have been working on. It’s like if I want growth, then I cannot have control. And that, in my opinion, is where scale starts to happen. I think when you realize, ⁓ I can’t be a part of every meeting. I can’t be a part of every decision. I can’t oversee every finance. I can’t sign off on every expense.

I cannot do all the things at some point if you really want to scale or if you are scaling even if you didn’t want to it’s just happening. You have to realize, ⁓ you no longer get to have control. And I think for some people they can’t release it, which is why burnout happens. I think a lot of stress, a lot of overwhelm and a lot of burnout for entrepreneurs, founders, executives, ⁓ even frontline, you know, salespeople. It’s like,

The burnout happens when you cannot release control. And that, in my opinion, is where most businesses ⁓ actually become stagnant. That’s where they plateau, is because the owner and the founder cannot release control. They will not allow their leadership team to lead. They can’t allow other people to make big decisions because they’ve been the one doing it the whole time. And it’s not that they don’t trust their team. It’s like, it’s always been me.

This is a ⁓ habit you have to unlearn. It is a skill you have to unlearn. It is something that you have to release and to surrender. And those things are scary. And those things take time. And I don’t think it’s because you hired the wrong people or it’s like, no, like those are big, long habits that you now have to unwind. And a lot of that does happen, has to happen in order for scale to take place.

Rory (19:26)
I

think you make a good point there about if you go in order to scale, you have to become a different person. And one of the mindset shifts that has to happen is that shift between control and growth. Another mindset shift that must happen for someone to scale, I think, is you have to let go of perfection. And it’s connected to this issue of control, because you got to where you are by doing everything right and doing everything perfectly. But

you can’t do it all yourself and continue to grow. And so this is something we talk about in procrastinate on purpose, which is 80 % done right by someone else is always better than 100 % done perfectly accurate by you. Or not always, but almost always. And that that is the requirement in order to to scale is to go, I have to deliberately intentionally purposefully be willing to accept

less than perfect for a short window of time by somebody else to go, I could do this better than you, but I’m going to be okay with you doing it and it being imperfect for a short window so that you can learn how to do it. Because long term, if I do it myself, I create a prison of my own construction and I create a life sentence for myself to have to do it versus that little imperfection window is painful.

for a limited time, but then over the long term, you create people around who do things. And one of my favorite quotes from, it’s in our second book, Procrastinating on Purpose, but it’s not from me, it’s from a multiplier Troy that we interviewed. And he said, you reach a point when you start scaling, you realize my job is not to do, my job is to make sure it gets done. And if those switches don’t flipped, you’re never gonna scale.

AJ (21:13)
Yeah, I remember Troy and that conversation was like, if I’m doing something, something has gone terribly wrong. And that is, you know, I think one of the things that we get asked a lot of time, well, you know, how do you know when to hire? Like how, how do you know when is the right time to hire if you can’t be the one to do everything? And before we answer that, I think there are two life questions.

But you have to ask yourself and I actually heard this on an interview you did with Mike McCallewitz years ago and I’ve really held on to it. And here are the two life questions that any entrepreneur needs to ask themselves as they’re starting a business, ideally at the beginning before you start. But if not, you can ask them at any time. Number one, is this a business you’re growing to keep or to sell? Because those are two distinct distinctly different paths. And I think that’s really important.

Right? Is this a lifestyle business? Definitely. Or is this a business that you are growing to sell? That’s important. That’s the first question. The second is do you want employees? Yes or no?

And those are the two most important questions for you to get clear on as an entrepreneur, is are you growing this to keep it or to sell it? And do you want employees, yes or no?

Rory (22:23)
And if you’re

growing it to sell it, you probably are gonna have employees. So that one kind of comes together.

AJ (22:27)
Right. And I think those are two and neither are right or wrong. They just are. And it’s, whatever is right for you at the different stage of your life and your own personality and your own desires and wants. but I think those are really important questions to ask, and to yourself and to have clear answers before you pick a path. ⁓ otherwise things happen unintentionally by default. And I, again, that’s where I think people get stressed, overwhelmed and burned out is the reasons they started all of a sudden disappeared.

They started because they loved this. And the next thing you know, the only thing they do is file taxes and big paperwork. That’s not what they started. And it’s because they lost sight of, I doing this to grow it and sell it, or am I doing it because I love it and it’s a lifestyle? Do I want employees, yes or no? Those are ⁓ simple but not easy questions to ask. ⁓ But once you have the answers to those, ⁓ when are you ready to hire someone? Because if you are growing and scaling at some point,

You’re going to come to that place where you cannot do it on your own any longer. I don’t have a perfect answer. can only give you my answer.

Rory (23:31)
I’m curious to hear this because I have a clear answer too. I wonder how much these are aligned.

AJ (23:35)
We’ll see. We’ll see. You guys can rate how closely related were they. Here’s what I have found is the first thing that I have to do is I have to set up my own boundaries, my own parameters of what I’m allowed to say yes and no to. And this has been a lifelong journey to figure those out. Some of those are schedule boundaries. Some of those are people boundaries. Some of those are commitment boundaries. And I’ll give you examples of some of those like

I have a commitment that I need mom time with my boys before 5 p.m., two days a week. Right? So ⁓ I end work earlier on Fridays. I have a shorter Friday, and I get to pick my kids up from school on Tuesday. Those are boundaries and commitments that I have to have to be a healthy, happy CEO, and also to be a mom who does not suffer from guilt. If I don’t have those things, I have an unhappy family and I have an unhappy workforce. Neither are good.

Right? And I think the first thing is like a healthy leader makes a healthy team. An unhealthy leader makes an unhealthy team. Same goes for parenting. An unhealthy parent makes an unhealthy family. ⁓ So I just know on the weeks where I don’t get to do those things, I’m a torn individual. And it’s like, well, I can’t do anything good. And it’s because I didn’t stick to my boundaries and my commitments. In order for me to be present at work, I need time with my kids. For me to be present with my kids, I need time at work. I’m not trying to overlap the two.

So firm set boundaries, would be one clear example. Another clear example is I can’t be in eight hours of calls and meetings and the team expect me to do my job. I can’t, so I put boundaries on I’m allowed this many hours of calls and meetings per day. If it exceeds that, it has to be pushed.

Rory (25:16)
Is that different every day or is it the same number?

AJ (25:18)
I have different every day, depends on the day of the week. But I will tell you right now, some people get very annoyed of like, you’re telling me you can’t schedule a call with me for five weeks. And the answer is no, I could schedule a call with you before then, but that would be sacrificing the commitments and the boundaries that I’ve set for myself, my family and my team. So I could, but I’m not. That means you have to get really comfortable and really good at how to say no.

And that has been an art in and of itself of learning the art of saying no. Because a lot of us, that’s a real struggle and we squeeze it in. But then all we’re doing is we’re breaking our promises that we’ve already made to ourself, to our team, and to our family.

Rory (25:58)
mean, you’re always saying no. You’re either saying no to that person or you’re saying no to the commitments you made to somebody else. So it’s like, you can’t go through life not saying no. It’s just, what are you saying no to?

AJ (26:08)
As an individual,

I’m just talking to entrepreneurs, you have to set your boundaries. What are the commitments that you’re gonna make? For me, I start with what are my commitments to the Lord? What are the commitments to my family? What are the commitments to the team? That’s the order that I go, and I fit in with family. I have to work out. If I don’t have physical exertion three or four times a week, I’m a crazy person. I have chaos energy. I told Roy the other day, was like, I’m shadow from Sonic 3. If I do not,

have physical exertion three or four times a week. I am just like shadow running around that orb at the very end creating chaos. ⁓ I have to release it. It is for the health of everyone around me that that gets out at hot yoga, not on a phone call, right? So those are the things you have to know about yourself. And you have to put those self-care things in there for us. Like if I don’t do my Bible study in the morning, I’m a grouch. I need my time with the Lord to have a peaceful start to my day.

Those are the boundaries and commitments that it’s like, if I don’t do that, everyone else suffers in the wake of my uncommitment. That is the first and foremost. Set your commitments and your boundaries of like, what makes you a healthy, happy leader? That has to happen first. And so if it doesn’t build in the boundaries of those, then I know there’s too much work for me to do. And it’s like, it is a basic law of economic supply and demand.

When there is more demand on my time than I have supply, then I start looking at, ⁓ you know, I follow Rory’s focus funnel. Like I do. It’s like, okay, what needs to be eliminated? What needs to be delegated? What needs to be automated? What needs to just be procrastinated on or what needs my attention right now? I follow the focus funnel. Like I really do. And it’s like, when I realize can’t be eliminated, it has to be done and it has to be by me.

I’m going, I’m looking at the team around me and I’m going, who is this going to? Right? And if there is no one, I’m going, I’m going to start making a job description because someone has to do this. It can’t be me. But it really is, but it does start. And I think that’s the most important thing of going, don’t break your commitments to yourself.

Rory (28:11)
And that would be that’s would be my answer in terms of when do you hire someone? It is when there is work that must be done that you don’t have time to do it. That’s when you start making the job description. But here’s what most people do. Most people say I’ll hire someone when I can afford to hire them. And that’s it’s it’s never worked that way. It’s never been like

We’ve got extra money lying around, let’s go hire the person. You think, like everyone when they’re starting as an entrepreneur, they all think, ⁓ that person has a big team because they have a lot of money. And it’s the opposite. They have a lot of money because they have a team and they invest in the team and eventually the money comes. But in the beginning,

All you’re doing is shelling out money to people on your team. And that’s what’s scary. And that’s where the risk.

AJ (29:06)
And that is where the risk comes. I think that’s where being a healthy financial fiduciary of your business is a part of your job as founder, entrepreneur, CEO, whatever your role is. I think everyone has responsibility of being a financial fiduciary if you work for a company because if you’re not and other people aren’t, everyone’s job is at risk. Like it doesn’t matter what your role is in the company, your job is to be a financial fiduciary of that company because that’s how you get paid.

Right? Is the, you know, the success of the company. But like to that point, I think a lot of businesses fail ultimately because they just ran out of runway. They ran out of money. And so knowing when to spend the money, knowing when to hire is really important. And what we have always found, it’s like, as long as my time is freed up, I know I can produce more revenue. Right? I know that. I don’t always know if I, if I free up somebody else’s time, can they produce more revenue?

I don’t always know that, but I know if I can free up my time, more revenue is on the way. And I think that’s again, that’s a mentality that we have chosen as business owners of, you know, we’re always going, how do we help generate revenue? That isn’t an outsourced skill set. It doesn’t mean people don’t help us. They most certainly do. But at the end of the day, our job is to make sure the company has enough financial runway to continue to be in business. That’s responsibility you own as an entrepreneur.

Rory (30:28)
That’s a big mindset shift. I, know, generally when I think of like my favorite like productivity books, I genuinely would put Procrastinating Purpose as one of them. Another one that I would put on there is ⁓ Dan Martel’s book, Right? Buy Back Your Time. And one of the distinctions he makes so sharply in that book that I really agree with and seeing it in writing was like definitely, is he says, hire to take things off your plate.

Right? Don’t just hire like, I think we need a VP of marketing. It’s like, no, what you need is to hire someone to free up your time. So whatever is taking your personal time, that’s where you need to you need to hire.

AJ (31:09)
how every job description should start and then it just continually scales from there. It’s like as one thing gets off your plate and new things come on your plate, eventually those fall off your plate and that’s a new job. And then that process continues on and on and on and on and that’s eventually how a team. ⁓

Rory (31:25)
great example

of this last year was we hired a head of people. Yeah. And I like, do we is that a position that we need? And you were like, talking to me, you’re like, you have no idea how much time I’m spending on benefits and HR and internal meetings and agendas and planning our conferences and travel and KPIs. And I was like, Okay, wow, I did not realize that ⁓ is going, ⁓ I guess we do. So from my vantage point, it felt like

we were too young as a company to need that position. But from your vantage point, you’re like, I am buried in a list of stuff. And it was like, okay, let’s go like we got to go get the person and we got we got someone who’s awesome. And yeah, so that’s so that’s really good. What rapid fire round here real quick, and then we’ll get into community questions. We got a big community question. So what do you think are the mistakes that entrepreneurs make when they’re trying to scale?

What are like the biggest things that they mess up?

AJ (32:22)
that they try to scale. Yeah, like genuinely. And it’s not only not knowing why, it’s that they try to scale before they’re ready. I think that happens a lot. We want to get bigger before we have the right systems in place to support that. One of the biggest mistakes that I have just read about, seen, luckily never firsthand, but is, you know, the rise and fall of tech companies.

Rory (32:23)
without knowing why.

AJ (32:47)
And there’s lots of documentaries. But I find these really fascinating of they scaled before they had systems to support the scale. And if the infrastructure isn’t there, the growth will implode the company. let’s not forget that. It’s like it can be an exciting ride. And then one day, it all comes crashing down.

Rory (32:55)
Hmm.

One of the most impactful things that has happened to me over the last year was the story that you found for our book about Chick-fil-A. that with Truett Cathy, don’t know what chapter is that in our book, chapter seven or something. ⁓ By the way, you can go to freebrandaudiobook.com slash podcast and just download the book. But if you go to that chapter, I think it is monetization strategy where we talk about scale is the lesson where Truett said, if we focus on getting better,

AJ (33:18)
three week.

Rory (33:38)
our audience will demand that we get bigger. And that was like a really clarifying moment for me was to go, don’t focus on getting bigger, focus on getting better. And if you focus on get better, you’ll get bigger. And I think that sums up the difference between our two entrepreneurial journeys, our first company and second company in some ways. We’ve been really focused on getting better, better, better at Brand Builders Group and we’re getting bigger as a result of that.

AJ (34:06)
And I think that’s true for any business owner, any entrepreneur. It’s don’t outgrow your systems. Don’t outgrow your systems. You cannot scale without the necessary infrastructure in place to support it. And when you don’t have it there is when it becomes toxic and unhealthy. And ⁓ it all really does start to fall apart, starting with you, because now you’re working double time over time.

even with the support team, because you just didn’t have the infrastructure to support the amount of clients or team members that you brought on. We talk about this often at Brand Builders Group and we go, I don’t know why so many of us are talking about, you know, growing our social media audiences or all the things that we’re doing when most people, most people only need a few dozen extra clients, not thousands, not hundreds, just a couple of dozen. Most people, if they doubled their client load, they couldn’t even handle it.

Rory (34:53)
Mm.

AJ (35:00)
And yet we’re trying to figure out how to do all these magnificent things. And it’s like, just pick up the phone and call somebody, ask for referrals. And I think a lot of that is we forget there’s not a lot you need to actually have some healthy growth and healthy scale. You don’t have to double, triple, quadruple your business in order to experience monumental growth for a lot of us. ⁓ But I do think it’s really important. It’s like serving five clients is very different than serving 25 clients.

Serving 50 is different than serving 25, 100. And it’s like, you have to be able to support that infrastructure before the clients come, otherwise it implodes. And I think that’s why how to scale is the wrong question. Not just because you don’t know why, which you do need to know, is that you’re trying to scale at all in order, you’ve got to have the order correct and the proper systems, processes and people have to be in place before you actually start to scale.

Rory (35:55)
Okay, next question. How do you determine what to pay people when you’re hiring, especially when you’re starting out and you really don’t have a lot of revenue or money? Like, what is some of the compensation philosophy of like, how do you afford people before you can really afford them? And then like, how do you adjust that over time or give us a little bit about that?

AJ (36:13)
This is a whole episode. my gosh. What a what Pandora’s box.

Rory (36:17)
Let’s do it. Let’s do an episode. We’ll do a whole episode on this.

AJ (36:21)
I think we should do a whole, because I think that’s Pandora’s box. I think there’s so it’s that you can’t even answer that question properly. It’s like, is this a brand new position? ⁓ Or is this a position that already exists in the company? Right? Those are two very different plans. Are you a startup company? Are you established? Right? Is this person learning a new job? Are they coming with expertise and experience? Right? Are you hiring virtual? Or is it mandated to be in person? Do you have benefits or not?

Is there a bonus or a commission plan or not? This is an entire episode. here’s what I would say at a very high level. Often when you’re starting, you’re going to probably not pay someone exactly what they’re worth and they’re going to be coming on because they believe in the mission, they believe in the potential and that there’s an upside. So I would say a lot of people get hired on, at least this is how we’ve done it, is like there’s a lower base.

and there’s a higher pay for performance opportunity, whether it’s a bonus, a KPI bonus or a commission plan that allows you to hire someone with what you can’t afford in a base, but it gives them the potential to make more income by selling or delivering or performance of the company when you can’t afford the base that this person could have earned somewhere else, but you’re hiring someone, not just because of money. And I think that’s probably my big takeaway. It’s like,

If people only come to you because of the dollars on the page, they’ll leave you just as fast. It has to be more about the paycheck. has to be, I going to enjoy the work who I’m enjoying with? Is there certain freedoms? Like, can I work from home? Can I travel? Can I earn more? Is there bonus potential? Is there benefits? It has to be more about money. It can’t just be about the dollars on a page because they will leave you just as fast as they came.

On that note, that’ll be a good healthy transition to move into one of our favorite segments of the show, which is when we do a question from our community where we take a whole bunch of questions posed from our community. They pick which is their favorite one. And that question makes it to you here on the show. So today’s question is, how do I say no without burning a bridge?

Rory (38:35)
This is so good. Really important and relevant. I’ve struggled with saying no for a big, big part of my life. I always wanted to say yes. And it was really once we started building our family that was like, have to start saying no to some things. And it was a really big struggle with me. And here’s the game that I learned how to play that I think made a big difference for me personally, was I make a game of saying no.

and still being super duper nice. And that epiphany for me was to go I can say no and be nice. ⁓ We did a blog on this. I think I did a blog on my blog about this a while ago. I haven’t looked at it but it’s we made an acronym out of nice and I see I think the end is notice the person’s value. Right. So someone asked you to coffee and you’re like that’s so kind. I love what you’re doing. It’s ⁓ you know and then the I is indicate interest.

It’s like, man, if I had all the time in the world, I would love to come and sit down with you and learn more about what you’re doing, because it’s really, really important. And then the C is competing priorities. But that and so you just kind of articulate to them, you go, right now, I’m just in a I’m in a really tight season right now with my family, my business, we’re moving houses, we’re writing a book, right. And it’s just so it’s like, man, if I had all the time in the world, I would do this, I just have really competing priorities.

And then you kind of explain clearly that you’re not going to be able to do it. But you offer offer them alternatives. Yeah. And so you go, you know, I can’t meet with you in person. Here’s a podcast episode that I picked out that I think would be super helpful. Here’s an article I found. Here’s a book I would recommend. Here’s someone I, you know, I think you should follow or, you know, here’s a quick bit of advice and encouragement. So that’s what this the E is, is encouragement. So you kind of encourage them.

in their journey. that’s just sort of the game. And you just have to do this. And it does kill me. It’s like I get invites to like come speak at things or meet with people. And it’s like if time like in eternity, like when eternity comes around, it’s like, yeah, I love that. You know, I’m so flattered. But if I’m saying yes to them, I’m saying no to you. I’m saying no to the. That’s the short answer.

AJ (40:50)
You just tell them my wife said no.

I think that’s really good. it’s like, mine is similar. It’s like, I don’t have a fancy acronym like you do. ⁓ My very succinct kind of like what I heard you say and what my philosophy is always focus on what you can do, not what you can’t do. It’s very simple. it’s like, doesn’t matter what the request is. I try to focus on what I can do, not what I can’t do.

Rory (41:09)
Mmm.

AJ (41:17)
So I always lead with what I can do while also making it clear what I can’t do. But I lead with what I can do. ⁓ Like I’ll give you ⁓ one quick snippet. Like here recently I got asked to do a book endorsement. And it’s someone who I really love. And I really love the book. And it was right after our book launch in the middle of our budget season in the middle of ⁓ moving a house. And it’s like they had a very short turnaround, 60 days. And I just, won’t write an endorsement if I can’t read the book.

Right. And I was like, ⁓ I want to say yes to this. And I can’t. I cannot. Like that is an overcommitment of epic proportion. And so when I got asked, I responded with, hey, what I would love to do is to do a live story promoting your book on launch week. I do not have capacity or time because of all these reasons to do a quality endorsement. However, I can put time on my calendar right now for your launch week.

I would love to go live and promote your book for you. And I did. And I did go live on their launch week and did a huge endorsement and got live and did a whole thing about their book launch. But I could not do the endorsement. I couldn’t do it. And so it’s just focusing on what you can do while also being really clear on what you can’t do. But lead with what you can, not what you can’t.

Rory (42:33)
So good. Well, there you have it, friends. Hopefully some advice, encouragement, insights, most of all, just lessons and experience shares from us struggling through this. As AJ mentioned, we did not have this figured out. ⁓ We have come a long way from where we’ve started and we’ve made some improvements from mistakes. So we hope it’s an encouragement to you. If there’s somebody that you think of when you’re listening to this episode who’s struggling with some of this, please feel free to share this. We would love for you to just find one person

that you send this episode to and keep coming back here so that we can keep you encouraged on your journey. We’re so grateful for you. We’ll catch you next time on Wealthy and Well-Known.

Ep WWK 006: You Are Your Niche: How to Turn Life Lessons into Leads

AJ: [00:00:00] How many new people and how many of the same people do you come in contact with on a regular recurring basis that you’ve never introduced yourself to?

Rory: And when you say introduce yourself, part of how you would introduce yourself is to tell your story.

AJ: If my story makes sense to everyone, but sells to no one, how niche should I really be in order to convert? Welcome to the Wealthy and Well-Known podcast, where we teach you how to build a true personal brand to help you scale your impact, your income, and your reputation. Today I am joined by my co-host and husband, Roy Vaden, and we’re going to be talking about the power of niche [00:01:00] storytelling, but the question is how niche, right back to the opening.

It’s like if it makes sense but it doesn’t convert, then how niche should we really be? So that’s my first question to you, Rory, is how niche should we niche down?

Rory: Yes. Okay. So those to me are different questions, which is like, what story should I tell to convert versus how niche should I niche down? But I think.
Where we should start the conversation is what is with the statement that is printed right on the front cover of our book. If you take off the flap, and if you’ve never seen this, it’s a, it’s an Easter egg. You gotta take off the flap, the jacket of the book, and right on the front cover it says, you are most powerfully positioned to serve the person you once were.

And to me, that is where this conversation starts because what I’ve become. More convicted on as time goes on is [00:02:00] that your story defines your niche. You don’t choose a niche and then try to figure out what story to tell. That’s good. You tell your story and your story defines your niche. And so I think lots of people have that switch
AJ: backwards.

Yeah.
Rory: And flip. They’re trying to go, what’s the perfect niche? Who’s my niche? And then like, okay, what are the stories I can tell to sell them? And go, no, it’s the opposite. You figure out what is your story, and your story will reveal. Your niche. So that’s where I start the conversation, but that really

AJ: defining your niche as your audience.

Like that’s the person.

Rory: Yes. Yes. I mean, again, another thing we say in the Wealthy Well-known book, you don’t start with why. You start with who, right? The moment you become clear on who you’re trying to serve, every other downstream decision becomes clear. Where should I advertise? What should I say? What should I sell?

How much should it cost? Like all, all of the [00:03:00] things become clear. When you’re clear on who. And so then you go, okay, well then who is my who? Well, I’m most powerfully positioned to serve the person I once was. So I think. When we think about,

AJ: let’s pause right there, because I think for, for us, that’s a really common idea, concept theme, right?

We’ve been working on that the last seven years. We know very intimately what that means, but for someone who’s listening who’s like, serve the person, I once was like, what does that mean? How do you determine the person you once were? So I think it would be like, if we’re saying, Hey. This whole idea of niche down is really about a who?

It’s about an audience. I think it would be worthwhile to go. How do you determine who you once were? Like how do you define that?

Rory: Yes. So a great a, if you want to tell a story that sells. You have to tell a story about someone overcoming a problem and achieving a result, [00:04:00] right? That’s what a story is. It’s somebody wants a result, they’re blocked by something, and the story is the description of their journey passed those obstacles to achieve that result.

That’s what storytelling is. It’s that it’s that simple. So. If you want to tell any story that sells, it’s gotta be what Obstacle did. Did. The person overcome. What challenge did they conquer? What setback did they survive? What problem did they push past? Right? That is the story as we teach in our world class presentation, craft curriculum.

The story is the struggle. The struggle is the story. The story is not about where they start. It’s not about where they end up. It is the journey, the the two steps forward and one step back. So. Anytime we’re talking about storytelling and selling in the same conversation, we have to be [00:05:00] clarifying what problem is being solved.

Mm-hmm. So to figure out who am I most powerfully positioned to serve? If we’re telling your story, then the conversation is, what challenges have you conquered? What obstacles have you overcome? What tragedies have you triumphed over? What setbacks have you survived?

AJ: Sounds like you’ve said this before,

Rory: I’ve said it before a lot, and I will, and, and, and every time I talk about it, I get a little sharper, I think, a little clearer on exactly what we mean.

I think there’s a lot of people who are like, yeah, if you wanna sell more, tell stories, but they don’t teach you how, how, what? Mm-hmm. What is a good story? What does what, what does that mean to tell a story? And I think we’re going, okay, your story is about what problems is you’ll come. Yeah.

AJ: I think that one of the things that’s really important, and you know, some of this to help everyone kind of articulate, is like if as you go through your own journey listening to this conversation today is, uh, the who [00:06:00] really does emerge out of.

What are the obstacles you’ve overcome? Right? What are the lessons that you’ve learned? Um, what are, you know, all the setbacks that you’ve made it through. And I think that what’s important is to go, okay, well, you gotta kind of go back and it’s like, and decide is, is your audience a person that you were a year ago, five years ago, 10 years ago, or 20 years ago?

Because there’s an evolution of serve the person you once were. Right. Was it the person I was when I was single, or is it the person was when I felt invisible or, so how do you discern that? Like, because all of us kind of have a history of past versions of ourselves.

Rory: Yes. So

AJ: this would be a great question that we’ve really never, we’ve never talked about about it.

I’ve never asked this about it. Yes. Yeah. Because you’ve been a series of different people over the course of your life. How do you know which one?

Rory: So for the context of this conversation, I think we’re talking about what problem Yeah. Are they paying us to solve? So when [00:07:00] you talk about storytelling and selling, it becomes very clear what stories you should tell because they’re the stories related to the things you’re selling.

Mm-hmm. Right? So in our case at Brand Builders Group, it’s like people aren’t. Paying us for me to tell them the story of how I lost 45 pounds, even though that’s a, that’s a journey that I’ve been on. Mm-hmm. Right. That’s not why people are paying us. I could tell that story anecdotally here and there to, to create connection or y you know, as a part of a presentation, but that’s not the story.

That’s not the person that I’m serving. Mm-hmm. ’cause that’s not our business. So I think there’s a difference in understanding. Yeah. Our whole life is a series of stories. Um, which stories sell though are the ones that are connected to what you offer, right? So if I’m a financial advisor, I need to be telling stories by, and by the way, these aren’t just of yourself, these are also of your clients, right?

Is to go, what were the struggles I had as money? What were the limiting beliefs that I had as money? What [00:08:00] were the mistakes that I made around money? What did I try to do that did not work? Why didn’t that work? Then? What did I finally do that did work? And then what was the result that happened for me in my life and or my clients?

So for us at Brand Builders Group, it’s the stories about me wanting to be a speaker and me wanting to become an author and us becoming entrepreneurs and us learning how to sell, and us learning how to lead because people are hiring us. To help them achieve those specific dreams. So

AJ: I think there’s something in this conversation that I think is very important to pause and to pull out.

’cause when we’re talking about niche down and we’re saying, Hey, we’re niching down on a person, I would like to change that word for the rest of today’s episode.

n/a: Mm.

AJ: We’re niching down on a buyer. This is one buyer. It’s not one person, it’s one buyer. Because when you think about niching down and how do you actually tell a story that converts in a crowded market, right?

This isn’t [00:09:00] about right to what you said. It’s like, well, I was someone who was overweight and I overcame that. Right? But that has nothing to do with what you’re selling and what they’re buying. So this is really about how do you niche down to a single buyer.

n/a: Mm-hmm.

AJ: Which means that you’ve gotta be clear on your product, your business model.

The person which makes the buyer.

Rory: Absolutely. And so I think

AJ: that’s an important distinction of what we’re talking about today, is how do you tell stories that actually stand out in a crowded market? But this is a marketplace conversation of how do you tell stories that convert by niching down on a specific buyer, not just a person.

Rory: Yes. That’s great. And I think if people feel like if, if someone is listening to this and they’re saying, I’ve been telling stories and they’re not converting. Then I would say there’s really kind of only one of two things. One is you’re, you’re not telling the story effectively, right? You don’t have the elements of story in place, which we could talk about, but more often it might be because you’re [00:10:00] selling something you shouldn’t be selling.

You’re trying to sell something that you have no personal connection to, you have no inherent passion about because you are talking about a journey that you’ve never been on. You’ve never guided somebody on, and that’s gonna be hard to tell a story. It’s hard to tell a story that you haven’t lived.

AJ: Well, could you also though be telling the right story, but to the wrong audience?

Rory: Sure. Yeah. Right. Possible. But I think that’s,

AJ: I mean, I think that’s a part of it too. It’s like when a story lands, then you know it was the right story at the right time with the right people. But often if the story isn’t landing, I don’t think it’s necessarily always the fact that you didn’t live the story.

It’s like, are you just telling the right story to the wrong audience?

Rory: Sure. I think that’s possible. I, I think what’s I, what’s interesting about the, the world of social media that we live in is it’s almost like I, I almost don’t have to think about [00:11:00] the audience necessarily. I just need to tell the truest version of my story in a way that illustrates what problem I overcome because the algorithm goes and it finds the people for that story, right?

Like, if, if you do it right, this is what we’re saying. It’s like you start with the story, your story becomes your niche, because at least in a, in a social media context, right? Um. YouTube Instagram.

AJ: Yeah. But what we gotta talk about offline too, and that doesn’t necessarily hit, those are D hit those different, those are different.

The same. Yeah. What you’re saying is

Rory: really true for offline, right? It’s like if I’m in front of a group of nurses talking about how I overcame, you know, my fear of public speaking to, and here’s how to become speaking, it’s like that’s not gonna convert.

AJ: But it’s like you could even be a financial advisor talking about.

You know, your path to wealth building or retirement or whatever. But if you’re talking to a whole bunch of retirees who are in their late eighties, story’s not gonna hit, it’s not gonna land. [00:12:00] Right. They you, you’re not reaching the right audience.

Rory: Yeah.

AJ: So I think that’s a, it’s both making sure it’s the right story or the right

Rory: audience, and maybe that’s a distinction that is unique to the world we’re living in now to the world.

You and I started in business. We were predominantly in front of offline audiences, and so you had to really select the audience, which you still do today for an offline audience in an online world. It’s sort of like. So it’s like in an offline world, you do lead with the niche. Mm-hmm. You target the industries and the audiences that you’re going after.

You ask for referrals to a specific type of person. You advertise to a specific type of person. With content marketing, it’s like you tell your story and the clearer you tell your story, it’s like the audience for that story starts to show up. That’s, that’s kind of interesting.

AJ: Well, I think we could talk about both of those, but.

I still think that today, most of us, most of the people who are listening are still doing the predominant, [00:13:00] predominant amount of their business offline. Sure. Uh, that’s the vast majority of all businesses. Regardless of what the internet tells you, most people still buy and sell based on referral, word of mouth.

Repeat buyers. They’re not going to social media to find their financial advisor. They are asking close, trusted friends and family of other people that they respect and look up to. Who do you use? Who do you recommend? So in that regard, I do think that, you know, kind of to this point of niche storytelling, and before I ask this, it looks like you really wanna say something.

Yeah.

Rory: So, so, so I would, I would underscore that too, but I, I, as you’re talking, it’s occurring to me that. The same algorithm dynamic also occurs offline. Like one of the things you, you, you say, we had another episode where you were talking about share the hard parts of your story. Yeah. Share who you are is, even if you’re not my audience, if I tell our bible study my story, they may not be my [00:14:00] audience.

Then when they meet somebody, yeah. Oh, I met a guy who, who’s writing a book? You need to meet him. Or I met someone who wants to be a, become a coach, or, I met, I met a lawyer who, mm-hmm. Who, who wants to grow a podcast because I’ve told my story to the people You have, like your six foot rule, you should explain what your six foot rule is.

Um, if I tell my story offline. To people who are maybe the wrong audience in terms of they’re not the right buyer, but they’re people I have relationship with, then they become equipped to refer people to me because they know who I’m trying to meet.

AJ: Yeah, I think that’s really good. Um, one of the things I think is interesting ’cause I think like to that it’s like even if you’re telling this.

Offline story about what you do, who you help, how you help them. Right? And that’s a story I just want everyone to be clear. It’s like that’s a story. I think what’s one of the most interesting facts, this is a total side note, tangent mental, um, [00:15:00] squirrel that just happened. But I think it’s worth mentioning is that I meet people all the time, as do all of us, and most people cannot tell you what they do.

Mm-hmm. It’s amazing. It’s like they stumble and I’m like, do you not know what you do? Are you not clear to how articulate it or do you not think I’ll know what you do? Like it’s a very bizarre thing that people cannot tell you what you do,

Rory: stumble, fumble, blah, that. But that

AJ: is a story, right, of you being able to clearly articulate at the right time to the right person in the right moment.

What you do is actually how you get. Business.

Rory: Can you tell everyone what the six foot rule is? Your, your six foot rule?

AJ: Yeah. It’s very, very simple. Not sophisticated, but my six foot rule has to do with offline communication, uh, offline networking, selling, whatever you wanna call it, is that you have to be willing to tell anyone.

You come in contact with IE six feet, right? [00:16:00] Anyone who is within six feet of you, you have to be so convicted in what you do, that if anyone is within six foot of you, you would be willing to tell them what you did and you would be able to clearly communicate what it is. And, uh, some of the examples I give are the value of how many people that you’re in front of on a every week recurring moment, right?

Who you go to church with. The parents you meet when you’re dropping or picking your kids up from school. Uh, the people at the soccer field, people standing in line at Starbucks, right. The people that you are standing in line with, checking into a hotel or checking out the people at the airport, like we are constantly surrounded by other people that we do not talk to, right?

One of my favorite things to do right now is to just watch people at the airport. Every single person. No, shouldn’t say every single person. You’re a people watcher. You’re a people

Rory: watcher.

AJ: Totally, totally. People watching. Um, but what’s amazing to me, [00:17:00] and again, I can’t say everyone ’cause that’s not fair, but most people have their heads down looking at their phone.

You’re sitting next to

Rory: potentially

AJ: your next customer. You’re standing behind your best prospect. Uh, you’re getting your nails done next to your new best friend. It’s like you’re sitting, uh, you know. Next to the person at church who could change your life.

Rory: Humans, there’s humans everywhere. There’s, there’s humans

AJ: everywhere.

Uh, and it’s like we overlook the quantity and the quality of people who are right at our disposal. They are within arm’s reach. That’s why I say six feet. It is within an arm’s reach and we’re ignoring them. Just pause and think about that for a moment. How many new people and how many of the same people do you come in contact with on a regular recurring basis that you’ve never introduced yourself to?

Rory: And when you say introduce yourself, part of how you would introduce [00:18:00] yourself is to tell your story. A succinct key is, part of that is succinct way to illustrate why you do what you do. How you do what you do by simply telling how you got into doing what you do. Yeah. And that is like your. The fastest way to your next customer is through real life humans.

And there’s real, they’re there. There’s humans everywhere. They’re

AJ: everywhere. There’s what, 7 billion of us right there. We’re everywhere. Um, we just have to be willing to engage. We have to be willing to interact. We have to be willing to put our phones in our pocket, put it on airplane mode, put it away, make eye contact and introduce yourself.

And there’s a lot of power to that. You just never know. Like I was at, uh, a quick personal story. Uh, I was at a, uh, dinner party at some friends with you. You were there and I was, you know, I’m not a great networker. Side note, I’m awkward. I’m like, if I know one person in [00:19:00] the room, I’m a stage five clinger, I’m just gonna follow that person around and eat snacks.

That’s what I do. But I got separated from Rory, so I was on my own. I’m like, wait, I’m, I’m just like looking for him survival mode. I was in survival mode. I’m like, where’s the bathroom for the third time? What was interesting is like it was such a tight, it was such a tight situation. ’cause there was a lot of us, uh, at this dinner house, this dinner party, and there was a guest of honor.

And it was Francis Chan and I happened to follow Francis Chan and I really love his teachings and I think he’s an amazing human being. And I saw him earlier in the night and like kind of avoided eye contact and moved on and I got, I’m an awkward networker, but then I got stuck shimming my way in between him and another person and he made eye contact and I’m like, six foot rule.

I, it’s my own rule. I have to do it. So I paused and I suck, put my hand out and I introduced myself and uh, and he was like, so aj tell me what do you do? And I was like, here’s my chance. Right? And it’s like, but it was amazing. And I [00:20:00] was like, I, well I actually, I help entrepreneurs build and grow their personal brands.

And he goes, personal brands, like, what do you mean? And then I like went on and, ’cause I know he’s a speaker and author and do all the things. And he goes, so you help people like me. I was like, I help people exactly like you. In fact, I, we’ve probably worked with some of the people, you know, and I made a list of clients and he goes, what would you do for them?

Right? And it was like, I had the answers. Um, but that’s only because, you know, and you practice. But that’s the beauty, beauty of the six foot rule. It’s like real life, human interactions, having real discussion about what you really love doing. And that is the power of just. Actually knowing your story and being prepared in the moment.

Right. And I think those are the really important parts that we can’t overlook and just talk about the algorithm. Not saying that’s not important, but for most of us, most of us, most of us are still gonna get our next client offline, not by an online conversion. [00:21:00] You

Rory: think we should talk about the elevator pitch formula?

AJ: Absolutely.

Rory: For people. Okay. So if you are someone who stumbles and fumbles to the question, what do you do? And we’ve all been there, right? It’s like, what do you do? Uh, I’m a,

AJ: well, here’s what most people say, um, is they give their title. Yeah. They go, I’m a financial advisor. I’m an attorney, I’m a real estate agent.

I’m a teacher. I, I’m a CPA. It’s like they tell you their title. That tells me nothing. Like I could meet 36 people who all say the exact same thing. That does not differentiate you in a crowded market. It does not, let me tell you right now.

n/a: Mm-hmm. Right?

AJ: What do you do? I’m a content creator. Welcome to the other 7 billion people on Earth.

Right? It’s like that does not differentiate you. Like when you talk about storytelling, it means you do something unique, right? For a specific buyer, right? That’s that niche buyer. Because you’re most well positioned to serve that person. So I just think that’s contextually [00:22:00] important. Um, now you can tell the rest of it.

Rory: Yep. So, so here’s the elevator pitch formula. If you struggle with this, all you have to say, you just, it’s this sentence. I help who to, what I help, who to what? Remember, you don’t start with why. You start with who. So who do you help? What type of people do you help? You start with who. When you talk about the who you serve, you’re sending out a crystal clear signal.

That people pay attention to and they’ll immediately self-select like, oh, I’m your who, or I’m not your who, but I know who your, who is. I know some people who are like the who you serve. And so the who is really key, not your title. Right. I help who and then to what? Or specifically to achieve what And if you were gonna make this a story.

Okay. The way to make it a story would be to say, I help who to [00:23:00] overcome. Something to achieve something else. Now all of a sudden you have a story. Because to have a story, you gotta have character. You gotta have conflict in order to have a a character, that’s your who. And in order to have conflict, you have to have a goal and you have to have a roadblock.

Right. So when you say, I help who to overcome blank, to achieve what? I just told a story.

AJ: Can you give us an example In real life.

Rory: So, uh, I mean, I’ll, I can, I’ll, I’ll start with us and then we can talk about different examples, right? So we now the who that you share, you should customize to whatever audience you’re in front of.

So if I were in front of a room full of speakers, I wouldn’t sell, I wouldn’t say we help entrepreneurs. I

AJ: help speakers, I

Rory: would say I help speakers, we help speakers.

AJ: I knew that answer. Top quiz, I knew that one.

Rory: Same if it was authors. Right? Now, if it’s a more general audience, I might [00:24:00] sell. Say we help entrepreneurs or we might, we help experts.

If it was room full of doctors, I would say we help doctors. Um, assuming that we do right? So. Our general term, and this is to your earlier question about like how niche is niche down, A lot of that language depends on who you’re in front of. Mm-hmm. Right? So we generally say mission-driven messengers.

That’s our general category. If you break that down into a little more specific, there’s, there’s three groups we serve. Experts are at the center, experts, entrepreneurs are in our second ring, and uh, executives are in our third ring. But even inside of experts, right. We would narrow down to go speakers.

Authors, coaches, consultants. Inside of entrepreneurs, we would say doctors, lawyers, accountants, whatever. So you tailor the language a bit, but at the, at the, the bullseye, which is also both the most broad term and the most narrow term is mission-driven messenger. It’s, it, it’s, it, it captures the whole [00:25:00] audience.

So I help who to what

AJ: I, you, you still didn’t give us the whole. Story.

Rory: Oh, to build and monetize their personal brand. Now, I would also tailor the what, right? So if, if it were a general audience, it’s like we help entrepreneurs to build and monetize their personal brand. But if it was authors, I could say, uh, we help aspiring writers to become bestselling authors.

So I’m tailoring this language. We help lawyers to build their personal brand so they can drive more leads for their practice. So it’s the same structural narrative, which is a story, right? Storytelling is a structure, um, and you have to have a who, you have to have something they want and then you have to have something blocking them or to be a full story.

But the elevator pitch formula. The simplest version to just help people get past the stumbling and fumbling is I help who to what

AJ: Now. This is the interactive part of today’s show, and if you’re listening, uh, here is my encouragement to you, knowing that most of us aren’t very good at this. This is where you [00:26:00] should pause.

You should literally pause the episode right now and take five minutes and make your own, right. Like you need to go, who do I serve and what do I do for them? Right? Like, as Rory mentioned, like mine, I said earlier, I help who I most like, who I’m best and most well positioned, er well positioned to serve our entrepreneurs, right?

Like that’s my niche within our company’s niche. I help entrepreneurs build and grow their personal brand. Right? So you should pause for just a minute and go, who do you help? How do you help them? I help who to what? This would be an amazing. Value for you to do right now. This could change the trajectory of your business by simply knowing how to introduce yourself in the right rooms.

Um, so this is an amazing thing that you could do for yourself right now.

Rory: And I would encourage you to answer that question in the comments, like actually type it out. I help who to what? You might get business from the humans interacting on the comments. [00:27:00] Right? But like we have to get comfortable saying that.

I help absolutely. Lead to what. Not your job title. It’s not I Am a Blank. That’s

AJ: right.

Rory: It’s a I help who to what.

AJ: It’s not about you, it’s about who you serve. So it’s not about what you are or what title it’s about who you serve and how you serve them.

Rory: What type of story shortens the sales cycle. You are a great salesperson.

You’ve sold lots of stuff. What do you think are the key elements of stories that. Reduce the time it takes people to make a decision.

AJ: I don’t think my answer would be a story.

Rory: Interesting.

AJ: Yeah. Twist. There’s a twist. A blood twist. There’s a blood twist in the conversation. Uh, I actually think the most powerful thing that shortens the sales cycle is telling people that this sales cycle is going to be short.

Rory: Interesting.

AJ: Uh, I think. In my experience, and this is just me personally, [00:28:00] I have not used storytelling, uh, as a tactic to help shorten the sales cycle at all. What I believe is the most powerful thing that you can do to help shorten the sales cycle is to start every sales conversation and end every sales conversation the exact same way.

And that’s a very simple, uh, what we call, uh, creating a buying atmosphere. It is to start every sales conversation with Hey Rory. Uh, we’re gonna cover a lot of information today and, uh, at the very end, we’re gonna get to a place where I’ve covered everything that we do, and you are going to know if this is a fit for you.

And, and when we get to that point, I’m gonna just simply ask you if you wanna move forward or not. And I just wanna tell you upfront, either way is completely fine with me. I will be completely good with a yes. I’ll be a completely good with a no. I know that we’re not for everyone, and not everyone is for us.

All I ask is that at the very end you give me a clear yes or a clear no. Is that fair? [00:29:00]

Rory: Yeah, absolutely.

AJ: And then I’d have the conversation, ask a bunch of questions. I talk about what we do and at the very end I’ll go, Hey, Rory. Uh, we’re wrapping up the end of our time here, and I know that we discussed this at the very beginning, and as we’re wrapping up here, I just wanna go back to what we said at the very beginning.

What I know about our business is that at this point you should know if this is a fit for you. And so we’re there.

Rory: So if you don’t know, then it’s not a fit.

AJ: And if you don’t know, it’s not a fit. Like that has been the fastest thing that shortens the sales cycle, is giving people permission to tell you no.

Um, what I have found is that most people are conflict avoidant. They don’t want to tell you no, we don’t like to hear no. As people. And most people don’t like to tell you no because they know that they don’t like to be told no, so they don’t, you know what they say instead, maybe. Let me think about it.

Send me information. Let me talk to my spouse or my partner. Uh, let me sit on [00:30:00] this. Uh, you know, let’s schedule a follow up. No, I don’t wanna do any of that. Uh, if this is for you, it is for you. And if it’s not, it’s not. Your yes is B yes. Let your nos be No, I’m good either way. And, but that’s, that’s the key though.

You have to be good either way. It has to be light and pressure free. And if somebody genuinely has to go check off on something, that’s fine. But how do you know if it’s a genuine, you have a very short follow-up turnaround that they are willing to book and schedule with you in the moment, right? If they’re like, you know what, let’s just uh, follow up with me in a few weeks.

Nope, this isn’t for you. And I know because you, you don’t know. Right? And I think that’s a lot of having the confidence and conviction of you’re not for everyone, you’re not supposed to be, and you don’t wanna work with a whole bunch of people who don’t wanna work with you. So be specific and be clear on who you wanna work with and make it easy to say yes.

By making it easy to say no, the easier you make it to say no, the easier it [00:31:00] is for someone to say yes. In my experience, in my last 22 years of selling, that has been the number one thing that shortens a sales cycle.

Rory: Interesting. Yeah, that’s a great one. There’s no, there’s, there’s no doubt that that shortens the sales cycle.

And it is one of the things that I think people are so scared to do and the one of the keys I think was. You have to say that upfront at the top of the conversation. Yep. And then you call it back. Yep. If you bring it up at the end, it starts to feel like pressure. It’s, if you bring it up at the beginning, there’s no pressure because you’ve taken the pressure off through the whole Well, do you,

AJ: I think really what you’re doing is you’re letting people know, like you should know, like you’ll know like, oh yes, that’s what I’ve been looking for.

And if at the end you’re like, I don’t know, then rather you didn’t do a good job of asking questions or they’re genuinely not a fit. Don’t sell to people who are not a fit for what you do. That’s a disaster for both of you, because in three months they’re gonna have buyer’s remorse. Or in three days, right?

In [00:32:00] some cases, but also you’re also stuck serving a customer that you don’t wanna be serving, and they don’t want your, they don’t want your services. It’s not good. So don’t do that.

Rory: Yes. Coming back to answer my own question, um, yes.

AJ: Tell us the answer to your question. Well,

Rory: so no, I, I, that’s a great answer.

I mean, I, I think that is definitely one of the things that will speed up a sale for sure, in terms of what type of story will speed up a sale in, in my experience, it’s a story about one of your customers succeeding. I think what you said speeds up a sale. The other thing that speeds up a sale like magic is.

When they know or can relate with someone else who’s bot,

AJ: why didn’t you just tell me the answer? I could have said that. Well,

Rory: I know you could’ve there, there, but that was a really, really good answer. Just tell me the answer. That was a really good and true answer and that’s an answer that, that’s like a bonus answer that, uh, I think is super technical.

Yeah, but

AJ: I like another [00:33:00] way of saying what you’re saying is, is customer testimonials, case studies. That’s right. Yeah.

Rory: Customer. And that was, you know, there, there is. There is something magical in selling. The only thing that I have ever found in selling that is magic, that will speed things up, make people interested, who weren’t interested, go from slamming the door in your face to I’m Your best friend, is names of people that you’ve worked with.

Mm-hmm. It’s the, it’s the, it’s the, it’s the, it is the fairy dust of selling and it’s like you’re like. So when you can tell a result. Now if, if, you know in our world, right? It’s like this is the result we helped Ed Millet create, this is the result we, we helped, you know, John Maxwell create, this is the result we helped Eric Thomas create, or Amy Porterfield or Dr.

Gabrielle line or whatever, right? Um, it works really well, if you can tell. The story of a result you helped a client [00:34:00] create. Mm-hmm. And particularly if they know the person. Mm-hmm. If they recognize the person, that’s magic. Now, certain industries you can’t share names like, and financial,

AJ: it doesn’t recognize, could be just another doctor.

Another doctor. This was another, you know, more specifically another school that we work with, another doctor in your particular field. It doesn’t have to be an exact person’s name, it could be just someone. Again, this is all about. Having a relatability factor of like, can you really do for me what you do for other people?

And it’s this, I have helped people exactly like you. Yes. In your field, in your profession.

Rory: The more specific, the more terrific.

AJ: Yep.

Rory: Right. If they recognize the person’s name, that’s the most powerful. If they don’t, it just, you zoom at a level, it’s a person like you. Right. And that goes back to our elevator pitch formula.

You tailor it as narrow as you can without, you know, so that you, you, they, you want them to self-select in.

AJ: Most think it’s more powerful that the person is more like them, not just a name they recognize personally. I think sometimes if you share names that they [00:35:00] recognize and they’re like, wow, they’re so further ahead than me.

Then they start doing a comparison game. They can. They can, yeah. And they cannot relate. They’re like, wow, you really, you can’t help someone like me,

Rory: right. I’m too beginner. I’m not like that person. Or I’m

AJ: too advanced. Right. Or whatever it is. Or advanced. Yeah. So I actually think it’s most powerful to go.

Who are the clients that I have that fit your exact profile? Because at the end of the day, the point of doing this is to help them know that you can help them. And so the best way you can do that is to give the stories of people who are as close to them as humanly possible because they’re just looking for social proof of, can you do for me what you’ve done for someone else who is like me?

Totally. I think that’s almost even more important.

Rory: And here’s our secret storytelling formula that we teach. There’s four elements of a story, a scene, a struggle, a summit, and a lesson, right? And the scene is all the people who, what, when, and where. The struggle is, what do they want, and, and, and what are they struggling with?

Then the, the summit is what [00:36:00] happened, and then the lesson is what you learned. When you apply that to selling, you set the scene. I help who, right? I was working with a doctor who was this and this, and this and this. Mm-hmm. They wanted to achieve this summit. They were struggling with these issues. We put them through our process to help them achieve this result.

And that is, that is the result that we create again and again for people who are just like you. Mm-hmm. Right? Scene struggle, summit lesson. And that’s what makes, what makes a great story. You could call it story selling, right? Story selling. The stories of clients that you’ve worked with that are like the person that you’re talking to.

What problem did you help ’em overcome and what result did you help ’em achieve?

AJ: Yeah, so you can tell stories or you can just tell people that they’re gonna know yes or no. Uh, either way,

Rory: if you, if you do both of those things in the same convers conversation, that that will be

AJ: [00:37:00] different strokes for different folks.

They both work. Yep.

Rory: And if you don’t have any cluster testimonials, cluster. Clusters cluster.

AJ: It’s a cluster. It’s a cluster. It’s a cluster of customers. When

Rory: people buy from you that shouldn’t have bought from you. We call those clusters. It’s the wrong people bought. Um, but what, uh, I lost my train of thought.

Cluster is so good. That’s so good. Um, but

AJ: time for our favorite segment.

Rory: Yeah. Onto the community. Question vaden. Okay. So. Here is one of our favorite segments. So every week our brand builders group members, right? So the people who are members in our programs are the people that we help. They vote on the most pressing question that they want for us to break down, and the one with the most up votes becomes our, our featured community question on the podcast.

So let’s dive into the question that our BBG members chose for this episode. Question I serve founders and operators. Can I keep one story for both? Oh, this is [00:38:00] great. This is your people? Mm-hmm. Entrepreneurs. I serve founders and operators. So I’ll clarify. I I’m gonna, I think a founder is someone who started a business.

An operator is basically someone who is running the business on behalf of the founder. Um, can I keep one story for both? All you.

AJ: Yeah. I’m giggling inside because I’m like, most founders I know are still operators.

Rory: Yeah.

AJ: This is the same person. Um, but no, to answer, uh, the question, uh, in the event that you find someone where the founder has stepped out of the day to day and you’re, or sold the business maybe, or sold the business or you know, whatever, they have an operator.

Uh, so here’s what I would say. This really does go back to a conversation that we had. Ha haphazardly at the beginning of this episode, which is. You have to think about your core target audience as you have a bullseye, that’s your primary. Then you have the second ring of the bullseye, which is what we call [00:39:00] your secondary audience.

And then you have the third ring of the bullseye, uh, which is your tertiary audience. Now, the person at the bullseye is that person that you are best and most well positioned to serve, right? The person you’re most powerfully positioned to serve because they are the most like you. Right? So let’s just say founders were your bullseye.

Then you’re naturally gonna have this second ring of operators because that’s the next rung down or after your founder. So it’s not that the story doesn’t apply to both, right. It just applies differently. Right. And I think that’s where we really have to talk about the same story can apply to both with some variations.

And I don’t think you have to change your stories. You don’t change your points. You don’t, you don’t change everything about your personal brand because you’re catching the outer rung. You catch the outer rungs by as a byproduct of being super focused on who’s at the bullseye. And in this case, I’m just selecting the founder.[00:40:00]

The short answer is yes, you can have the same story for both. Uh, you are naturally going to hit that outer ring of people. As Rory mentioned earlier, at our bullseye experts. Then entrepreneurs, then executives, I do not change our stories. I do not change my stories. We do not change our content. To somehow now magically appeal to an entrepreneur or an executive.

We naturally appeal to them by being super clear, super specific, and going after experts. Why and how then do we naturally appeal to those outer rungs? Because those outer rungs are in the process of becoming closer to the bullseye. Right. Uh, they, they have expertise in their field, right? Just because you’re in an ex an executive doesn’t mean you’re not an expert in something.

Uh, just because you’re an expert doesn’t mean you’re not an entrepreneur in something. Uh, so it’s really focusing on what’s at the bullseye. And you naturally catch people as a [00:41:00] byproduct of being really focused without having to change anything that you share or do. You don’t need to change your messaging.

You catch them as a byproduct of being very specific.

Rory: Yeah. That’s so great. So I’m gonna round out my answer, um, to be a little bit more broad, uh, and go, this might perhaps be the, the, the most powerful secret of storytelling that we haven’t yet talked about on this episode.

AJ: Well, what are you waiting for?

Rory: And that is the best way to tell a great story, is to tell a story that is specific to the person you’re talking to. And the best way to know exactly what story to tell is to ask them their story first. This is the hack of all networking. It’s not to have the super perfect elevator pitch. It’s not to talk about all your customers.

It’s not to talk about yourself. It’s not to talk at all. It’s to shut up and ask people, tell me your story. Tell me about your business. Tell me about [00:42:00] what you do. Tell me about who you are. Tell me about your dreams. And as they tell you their story, they’re not only telling you their story. They are telling you exactly what type of story you need to say back to them in order to make a sale.

Yeah. So they’re, they are telling you exactly what they need to hear in order for them to relate to what you do. Mm-hmm. So this is why we say. Truly the greatest salespeople are not smooth talkers. They’re master question askers first.

AJ: Absolutely. So I couldn’t agree with that more. It’s like the sale is made in the power of the questions you ask.

Rory: So good. Um, alright. That’s all we got today for this episode of Wealthy Well Known. Hey, share this episode with someone who you think needs it and someone who has a great story and needs help telling it in a way that will create more conversions. If you haven’t yet, please leave us a rating and a comment, uh, on the [00:43:00] podcast, wherever you listen to it.

That helps people find us and make sure you keep coming back so that we can do our best. To help you become wealthy and well known.

WWK Ep 005: Are You Being Honest—or Just Strategic? Rethinking “Authenticity” Online

Rory: [00:00:00] Every time I hear the word authentic, I throw up a little bit in my mouth. I don’t like the word why. I just, I feel like it’s people pretending not to pretend. Like when they, when, when you, when I think when you show up and say, I’m gonna be more authentic, it’s like. You are going to be less authentic because you’re, you’re consciously thinking about what you’re gonna say.

And to me, it’s like, if I’m consciously trying to curate what I’m saying, then I am not being authentic.

AJ: I’ve asked myself a lot the last few years, like, where did this come from? Have we all been inauthentic for the last 20 years? Like what? Mm-hmm. What happened to create this movement towards be, be more authentic?

Rory: What would happen with your personal brand if you stopped trying to be interesting [00:01:00] and you instead just focused on being honest? Welcome back to the Wealthy and Well-Known podcast where we help you build and monetize your personal brand to grow your influence. Your impact and your income. Today we’re gonna be talking about the power of authenticity with a personal brand.

What are the mistakes people make? What are the right ways to do it, the wrong ways to do it? And as always, I’m joined by my beautiful wife, my best friend, my business partner, and my co-author and co-host AJ Vaden.

AJ: That’s a lot of, that’s a lot of things. You have a lot of titles in my life. I do. I do. But

Rory: you do a lot of, you do a lot of things.

True. Uh, here’s the opening question we got. How do you express. An authentic brand in a way that increases trust and conversions and doesn’t create confusion.

AJ: Yeah. Well I think before we kind of get into that, I think the word authenticity gets thrown around a lot today. A lot. Like a lot. Uh, and I think it’s good to define like, what do we [00:02:00] actually think is authenticity.

Rory: I mean, I will say. Authentically. Every time I hear the word authentic, I throw up a little bit in my mouth. I don’t like the word why. I just, I feel like it’s people pretending not to pretend. Like when they, when, when you, when I think when you show up and say, I’m gonna be more authentic, it’s like. You are going to be less authentic because you’re, you’re consciously thinking about what you’re gonna say.

And to me it’s like, if I’m consciously trying to curate what I’m saying, then I am not being authentic. I guess that’s just how I process it.

AJ: That’s pretty cynical.

Rory: Is it? Yeah. I don’t, I mean, yeah, I guess, I guess I think if, if you’re authentic, you’re allowing yourself to be seen. You’re not trying to curate.

AJ: I, I think maybe even a better place to back up and start is [00:03:00] why has there been this, uh, insurgence, right? This unbelievable amount of content around the importance of being authentic. And I think that’s, I’ve asked myself a lot the last few years, like, where did this come from? Have we all been inauthentic for the last 20 years?

Like what? Mm-hmm. What happened to create this movement towards be, be more authentic? Let’s talk about authenticity. ’cause you’ve got, uh, all these speakers talking about authentic leadership, how to be authentic online. So I think it’s actually a really important thing to talk about. Well. Where did that come from?

Why has that been such a topic of conversation the last few years? And I agree to some of what you’re saying, like, Hey, we hear it so much right now. Now much, you’re just inundated with authenticity. Be authentic. Uh, what does it mean? And at the same token, I, I don’t wanna be cynical in the God. It’s like, well, at some point there [00:04:00] must have been enough of us who are going like, man, I’m, I’m not being me.

I feel like I have to be someone else to be successful, to get promoted to, uh, be seen, or I, I have to show up differently. There has to be enough of that going on in the world. And I’ll just say specifically for the United States where we live, that it has become a topic of conversation. And so I often ask myself like, what?

What was happening culturally or in business or in the home that made us all go, like, why do I feel so inauthentic? What’s happening around us that has made this be a topic? Then I think it’s worthy of us defining for this conversation what we define as authentic. What is authenticity? Then we can answer some of these questions, but if we, if we don’t back it up, then, you know, to your point, it’s like we’re just, uh, adding more fuel to a [00:05:00] conversation that is this really worth talking about?

Is everyone else talking about it or should we back up and go, where did this come from?

Rory: Yeah, I mean, I think the conversation started with people pretending. People feeling like they had to curate how they were showing up both online and offline. I actually have a lot more appreciation for somebody who feels inauthentic in an offline world than an online world.

Um, because I think if someone feels like they’re having to pretend to be someone they’re not in an offline world, that I think is just exhausting and, and sad and painful. That’s where you lose relationships and you lose yourself and you, uh, you know, I think that that really struggles, but I think that’s not, I don’t think that’s as much what people are talking about.

I think, to answer your question, this all began with filters online. It all began when everyone had a video camera in [00:06:00] their pocket and everyone started taking selfies of, of themselves. Uh, we all started taking selfies. Then people were filtering it and using airbrush, and every single person was literally editing the way they looked.

And then the other thing is we were trying to appear successful and appear happy. And so the only things we shared on social media was the highlight reel.

AJ: Hmm.

Rory: That’s where I think it began, or how I think it began.

AJ: That’s interesting. I don’t think that’s accurate at all. It’s just the beautiful thing about two different worldviews having two different, yeah.

Rory: So what I’m curious, genuinely

AJ: social media and the emergence of all things digital simply revealed, magnified, multiplied what was already happening, happening all around us in everyday life.

Rory: Sure.

AJ: I think that’s all it did. I think every single bit of these, uh, [00:07:00] whatever word you use, pretending, um, was already happening.

This just multiplied it. It’s like I think about all the personal or professional encounters, um, that I’m in online, offline, but specifically offline for most of my life. Like, think about like even bible study conversations. It’s like it’s really hard for people to share the hard parts of their life. I think about all the professional, uh, meetings and endeavors and board meetings, and it’s like you very rarely actually know how someone really feels or what’s happening at home, how, how hard their home life is or the, the tragedies that are happening all around them.

You show up and it’s, you know, you leave your problems at the door and you come to work like this and it’s like, there has been that era that, and this tone of, uh, pretend like everything is okay. Right, whatever’s happening at home. Leave it there. You’re at work today. Uh, or, you know, I think about, uh, I, I’ll just use myself as an example.[00:08:00]

It’s like when I got fired from our former company, it took me two full years to say, publicly the words I got fired took me two years. And so I think for a lot of it, it’s like there’s this idea of like, I have to be a certain way. I have to look a certain way to be accepted. To be seen as credible. To be seen as worthy.

And then with the emergence of digital platforms and social media, my goodness, that just amplified everything. And I think that’s also why many of us are struggling with mental health issues offline, is because we were already pretending and now we’re portraying this life that isn’t even ours. And you look online and you don’t even recognize yourself.

You’re so airbrushed, you’re so touched up. Uh, it’s this highlight reel that’s not even close to reality. And then you go, wow, like that’s not even close to my life. And it, it creates surface level relationships. It [00:09:00] creates surface level conversations. And I really do believe that is why the words authentic and authenticity happened viral the last few years is because people started feeling the reality of.

I’ve never really shared myself, and now I don’t even recognize myself. I look at my own feed, I look at my own relationships and I’m like, who is that? Uh, and now I think we have an entire generation of people who are afraid. They’re afraid to actually go back and say all this stuff that you see. None of it was real.

Rory: So here’s, here’s, I think as you’re talking. I agree with all of that. Where I, where I kind of have the like distaste for the word is going, let’s say that’s what I’ve shared online is like this highlight reel and then all of a sudden somebody says, you should be more authentic. And then I deliberately [00:10:00] start sharing like.

I, I, I, I deliberately start talking about topics that are so personal that I would not normally talk about online. I think there is an element of prudence to, to, to certain topics that you talk about online and certain ones that you, that you don’t. And so now all of a sudden you’re like, so, so my issue is not with being authentic, my issue is with.

Pretending to be authentic, to get more views. Pretending like,

AJ: so what’s the difference? What, how do you know if you’re being authentic or being, or pretending to be authentic?

Rory: Yeah. I think only, you know, as a person, but it’s like if I suddenly go, here’s a, here’s a great example, right? I know that people love to hear stories of failure.

I know that, right? We know that those, those, those stories will perform better online. [00:11:00] If there’s a part where I go, I’m gonna come and just tell my failure stories just so I can get more views. That to me is incredibly disingenuous and disingenuine and inauthentic. I think it’s okay, like if you have a story about failure, that’s like a meaningful story and you think about it and it’s weighing on your heart and it’s relevant to the conversation.

I go, let me tell you about the, the, the stupidest mistake I ever made about mis titling my second book. But if I go, okay, let me brainstorm all the times in my life where I failed so that I can make a reel about each one of them so that I can get more views. That is the, uh, like that is the part, and

AJ: that’s the, that’s the cynical part.

I guess I’ve just, I have intentionally put a filter through my own lens of going. I’m sure some people may do that. I’m just choosing to go, that’s not what people are doing it. Even if they are, I don’t [00:12:00] care if it helps somebody else. Like I don’t even care. Like if they’re doing it just for the views, I still believe those stories are gonna reach the right person at the right as long as they’re true.

Right Now, if they were telling untrue stories, well that’s different. And

Rory: it’s, it’s, it’s particularly that it’s an embellished. An embellished version of my failures that I think people, it’s going, I’m going to deliberately tell stories about my failures and weaknesses, and I’m going to embellish them so that people relate to me more.

That’s what I see when, what I feel like when people are like, oh, I’m gonna be authentic online, so now I’m gonna tell like more embellished stories of my negative things, and I’m like, I’m like. You are a successful person. Why don’t you tell people about successful things that you’re doing? Um, I think

AJ: people don’t really want to know all of the successful things, and I think it’s not that you shouldn’t share those, clearly those are [00:13:00] credibility, you know, builders, and that’s helpful.

But I think the, I think the tone has changed because that’s all we’ve been doing. It’s like, look at someone’s bio, look at their introduction. It’s best thing I ever did this award, this title, this accomplishment. Um, I’ve never in my life read a bio on stage or doing an interview like this that did a highlight reel of the worst mistakes you’ve ever made.

Mm-hmm. And I think that we’re trying to counterbalance the only, share the successes, only the victories, only the awards, only the accomplishments, only the highlight. Highlight, highlight. Because I think there’s, there hasn’t been enough of the pendulum swinging the other way, so maybe it swung a little too far and it’ll settle back in the middle.

Uh, I just, I think this is an interesting, I had no idea you felt that way, first of all, about this. This is, uh, an interesting revelation for me over here of going, wow, there’s a little, there’s a little cynicism over there. Uh, but I had no [00:14:00] idea that you felt that way.

Rory: Well, I think I just have. General, a general distaste for anything that someone does that’s disingenuine for the purpose of building their platform.

That’s the part that really triggers me. Okay. And I go, like, if you wouldn’t have coffee with me and tell me about your failures, don’t do it online just because it performs well. That’s the part that drives me nuts. So is, is, is going like. Um, I, I guess, I guess that’s, I guess that’s it, right? I, because then it’s like, just like you were pretending to be successful online, now you’re deliberately pretending to be unsuccessful or like you’re deliberately pretending that you’re struggling.

That’s my, if somebody is really struggling and they want to share it, amen. And, and that’s it. As I think there’s a lot of [00:15:00] people when they say they’re being authentic, they’re actually genuinely being even more inauthentic. They’re deliberately manufacturing feelings of weakness or sadness or failures.

And that to me is what makes me throw up in my mouth, where I’m like, you are pretending to be you. You’re, you’re, you’re, you’re, you’re doing the same thing you were doing before. Curating a highlight reel of perfection, and now you’re curating this like highlight reel of like sadness and mistakes, and that’s where I, that’s the part where I’m like, no.

Now if somebody is genuinely struggling with something in life or they’re wrestling with something, or they’re going through a hard time. I think that would be fascinating to talk about. What do you share and what do you not share, but that I have nothing but compassion and encouragement and hope for

AJ: all right.

We’re just gonna have to settle this dispute and agree to disagree on the topic of, uh, being authentic and authenticity. Uh, [00:16:00] I. Had a podcast guest on our show earlier this year, Jessica’s Wag. And I asked her, ’cause she talks a lot about being authentic and I asked her like, what’s your definition of authenticity?

Because there’s so many variations of it. And hers was the first time where she said it. It hit me of like, oh, that’s so clear. That’s so concise. That makes so much sense. And when, oh, tell

Rory: me I’m, I want to hear this.

AJ: It’s the willingness to be honest.

Rory: Hmm.

AJ: That authenticity is just the willingness to be honest.

And we had a beautiful conversation of like, okay, well when do you be honest? How honest, and it was a great conversation. And I think for me, ever since we had that conversation several months ago, um, my lens has really changed on, oh, that’s what people are talking about, uh, when they, ’cause so many people can’t even really define it.

Rory: Absolutely. And this

AJ: was a really clear [00:17:00] definition that I’ve really latched onto. It’s just the willingness to be honest,

Rory: right? Because that’s where we’re aligned here, where I go if you’re being honest. Amen. That’s awesome. But if you’re deliberately, if you’re saying, oh, I’m being authentic and I’m now deliberately pretending to be sad, pretending to fail, I’m just gonna

AJ: move forward with, that’s dishonest.

People don’t do that. Sure. Probably it happens. I’m choosing to move forward of going, no one who is listening is doing that, so let’s just pretend that no one is doing that. Talk about authenticity of when, how, if they are

Rory: doing that though, you wouldn’t be in favor, you wouldn’t be in favor of that, would you?

AJ: No, no. I, you know, other than I,

Rory: I really appreciate the point you said about like, if it helps someone else, then who, that’s who cares. And I

AJ: think I, I, I hear what you’re saying and I liken it to a great fisherman story, right? A great fisherman [00:18:00] story always has a slightly bigger fish. It’s always a slightly more dramatic catch, right?

And the more often you tell the story, the bigger the fish gets. And yes, I think there’s some embellishing that happens with, and then this and then this. And it was 30 pounds, and the next time you hear the story and it was 40 pounds. Um. There’s a little bit of that that’s like, is it a hundred percent accurate?

No. And a little, a little embellishing is okay for the drama of the story. Um, I’m not saying that it should be false or inaccurate, but I liken every great fisherman story to a little bit of embellishing that draws us in. I think every story, the more it gets told, it gets a little embellished. Yeah. I mean, that’s

Rory: a license to embellish in storytelling.

Yeah, and

AJ: I think for what I, what again, my lens, my choice has been. I’m not even listening, asking myself, is that embellished? Is it a hundred percent accurate? I’m just going, what is in that [00:19:00] story for me? And if they’re not being a hundred percent honest, uh, and it, and it is authentic, I’m not even asking myself those questions.

I’m just going with whatever they have to share. Is there something for me in this story, in this lesson, and personally for me. Right. It’s like what, whatever they choose to share or not share, share or how much is true or not really isn’t for me to decide. Uh, it isn’t for, it isn’t for me to decipher or judge or discern.

I don’t really care. That’s between them. Uh, and God, I’m just going, whatever it is that gets shared, is there something for me in it?

Rory: So I think if you are listening right now or if you’re watching specifically on YouTube. Put in the comments down below. Do you have a, the word authenticity, I just want to hear in the comments if, and just, just go to the comments.

And I wonder if this is like a male female thing, if it’s an age [00:20:00] thing or if it’s just put in the comments or is it just a Rory thing or is it just me? If it with the word authentic, does that make you go? Woohoo. Yes. Be authentic or does that make you go, that is like, make me throw up on my mouth. The word turns me off or something else.

There’s

AJ: a third, there’s a third option. Or does it go, Hey, what does that mean?

Rory: What does the, how do you respond when you hear the word authentic? I am fascinated to know if I am the only person in the world who feels like this, because

AJ: my, my question hasn’t been woo hoo, let’s go, let me tell every dirty secret.

And it hasn’t been, Ugh, that’s terrible. Um, it’s more of like, what does that mean for me? That has my, that has been my constant question at every speaker, every topic, every podcast, everyone I know where that comes up, I’m always like, what? You’re not. Telling me clearly what that means. And it wasn’t until I had that interview with Jessica where I’m like the willingness to be honest.

And that just really deeply resonated.

Rory: And that to me is the light bulb moment is like authenticity makes me [00:21:00] throw up in my mouth honest.

AJ: Stop saying that honesty, you’ve been talking too much to our 8-year-old. Stop saying that

Rory: honesty is, I go, that’s what, that’s what matters. Mm-hmm. And I think the reason I have such a trigger response to it is if I sense that someone is being dishonest.

Even though I can learn from them, and I do, I learn from people and I’m sure there’s people you know who don’t agree with everything I do. Hopefully they can learn stuff. It’s not that I won’t learn from ’em, but it’s that the moment I detect that someone’s being dishonest, it’s like I deliberately am, I am removing them from my life.

Yeah. Like I, I’m on an active path out and, and I think there’s so much dishonesty online.

AJ: Sure.

Rory: Which is where this all came from and offline, which is the irony.

AJ: Welcome to humanity. Totally.

Rory: Totally. You know? Well,

AJ: what I have learned from this conversation is that you have a trigger word, a new trigger word.

That when I wanna irritate you, I now know what to talk about. So that’s great. Um, so let’s talk about, uh, when it comes to the A word, which I’m not gonna say anymore. Uh, [00:22:00] what, what, like, what? What’s appropriate and what’s not. Right. I think that’s a really think good thing to share of like, okay, if you are going like, yeah, I’m not really sharing the hard parts.

And I, to be honest, I think most people refrain from sharing the hard parts. I think most people are a little more comfortable sharing the credibility boosters of their life. Mm-hmm. Than they are the hard moments, which is why I find it. More rare that this is an issue of over embellishing, it’s more of an issue of like, reveal something at all.

Mm-hmm. Um, but I, I do think it’s a worthwhile conversation of, well, what do you share? How much do you share when, where, uh, with whom? Um, so let’s talk about that. So let’s, yeah.

Rory: And we’re aligned on honesty, so I mm-hmm. I think from that standpoint of going, okay, let’s make that the foundation mm-hmm. All of those questions.

So why don’t you go first? What, what do you. Is there anything off limits or what? Well, [00:23:00] some things are off limits, I dunno, is, let’s start with that. Is there anything off limits of what you would share publicly and that you would advise other people or not advise other people in terms of where their boundaries are?

Yeah, in terms of what to talk about. I

AJ: think there’s a difference between private and transparent. I think that you can be transparent to the degree of, Hey, I don’t have a hidden agenda here. There’s nothing in this for me. I think there’s some things with being transparent where you can be clear, you can be honest, but then there are some things that are private and it’s just none your business.

And I think knowing the distinction and both your professional life and in your, uh, personal life of there are things that are private. Like if I have a, a confidential conversation that is private. I’m not gonna share that, right. Uh, that’s at home or at business. So there are things that are private, which means that you’re still working through them, which means you have a, you know, [00:24:00] an agreement with another person that these things are confidential and not to be shared with the public or with anyone else.

So I think there are plenty of things in life that are private. I think there’s many things that I do not share about our family and our children. Those are private. Right. There are things that happen, uh, with close friends and family members in our business of those are private things. Like, I’m not gonna share the p and l statement, right?

It’s like there are some things that are private. However, at the same token, you know, on the p and l statement, it’s like there are plenty of things that I’m transparent with. Of like what our revenue is at and where we have expense overages. And so I think there’s a line of going what’s appropriate to be shared because it means something to the people hearing it versus what is private, which means it needs to stay confidential or, and you gotta ask yourself is just, is um, is this oversharing.

And I think there is a fine line and you just kind of have to know for yourself. But to me, oversharing is sharing anything that would [00:25:00] break confidence, that would break confidence that you have said, Hey, this is a private situation with a person or with a group of people. And if you’re sharing things that were, you know, talked about or agreed to be incompetent, that’s oversharing.

Those are not things for the public. Those are things for private. And then there’s the willingness to be transparent. Uh, you know, I I, I’ll give you a personal example, uh, back to it. ’cause I mentioned earlier it took me two full years to say publicly I was fired. Right. And, uh. We were at a dinner here recently and someone had asked you, you know, I had a mouthful of biscuit or something.

And so I was like, you tell the story. Well, I chew this, uh, biscuit. And they were like, so tell us about your business or whatever. And you said, well, you know, seven years ago we exited.

Rory: Mm-hmm.

AJ: Right? And as soon as I got done chewing, I was like, well, to be clear, he exited. I got real fired.

Rory: Very, you said? I got very fired.

I got

AJ: very fired. And I think for me in the [00:26:00] past, the inauthentic part was just to go along with, we exited and it’s like, to some degree that’s true, but that’s not authentic. Uh, that’s not a hundred percent accurate. No, I got very fired. And I think that’s the difference of like, do I need to share the details of why I got fired?

How I got fired? What happened in private boardroom conversations? No. That is oversharing. Those are things that were in confidence.

Rory: So what, where’s the what, what, how do you, what’s, what are the characteristics of where the line is? Like how do you know what’s the line? So for me, clearly if it’s confidential, sure.

That’s just a trusted, like this is agreed that this is confidential. I

AJ: think you have to ask yourself, where am I, oversharing?

Rory: All right,

AJ: so if somebody asks me, they’re like, so you got fired? Tell what? What did you do? Like, why’d you get fired? I’m like, there was a growing difference of opinions, and I always say, I got asked some very pointed questions.

I gave my very honest answers, and [00:27:00] they were not in alignment. Yeah,

Rory: philosophical differences. There were philosophical differences, which is like, it sounds cheesy to say, but it’s like that’s really, that is the most honest answer that there is. So that

AJ: is being transparent. What would be, oversharing would be like, well, I said this and then they said this, and then they said this.

And then I said like, that’s what purpose does that serve? And so as I’m sharing, I’m always asking, what is the point of me sharing this? And if there is not a point, then it’s my signal to go that’s oversharing. In other words, AKA gossip. Gossip. Mm-hmm. So I’m always asking myself, is this oversharing AKA gossip or is there a point?

To the story, and that is my, that is my filter of, is what I’m sharing, serving my audience by giving them a lesson that can help them? Versus, am I just reliving the story for the sake of like working through my own emotions? Or have I resolved what has [00:28:00] happened? Have I learned a lesson, and now can I share it in the benefit of another person?

Rory: So there are two rules that I’ve just gotten clear on for myself about what the, where the boundary is for being authentic and, and sharing, just listening to you talk. The first one is, if you are still processing it, do not share it. This, these are rules for me. They don’t have to be rules for everybody, but as you are talking, I’m going, that’s rule number one.

Rule number two is if me sharing. Is going to harm a different, a relationship I have with someone somewhere else. Keep it to yourself. Keep it to yourself, right? Those even,

AJ: even if you don’t have a relationship with that person, even if you don’t like that person, you do not cause her harm to other people because you decided to overshare.

It’s inappropriate. It’s gossip, right? If it’s harmful, you keep it to yourself.

Rory: If I’m sharing details. Any information that is going to harm my relationship or harm [00:29:00] someone else, I have crossed the boundary Absolutely. Of oversharing. So I’ve never been so clear on those two things as just listening to you talk and be like, because one of the biggest mistakes that I’ve made in oversharing has been talking about things that I’m processing.

Mm-hmm. Like. Don’t talk about things on air when you’re processing them in your life. It’s like, it’s gotta be in the past. It shouldn’t be in the present or, you know, approach with caution. If it’s in, in the present,

AJ: that’s what therapy is for.

Rory: Yeah. Another way of saying this would be, talk about your scars.

AJ: Yeah. Not your

Rory: wounds, not your scabs. Mm-hmm. Right? Like if it’s still a scab, it’s like it’s too fresh. You’re not fully clear on what this lesson is. You know, you’re still living it,

AJ: you, it’s interest. Yeah. And I think it’s interesting because like I, the only reason that I talk very publicly and openly about getting fired now is because I have complete resolution.

Like I have no. [00:30:00] My intentions, I have no malice, like, uh, complete forgiveness. And, and in fact, how I know it’s a time to share is that I’m nothing but grateful for it. I’m so grateful that it happened. Um, I’m so appreciative of the lessons that I’ve learned and the person that I’ve become because of that.

That’s how I know it. I, I’ve healed and I can share. There’s other, you know, things that in my life where,

Rory: you know what? Just really quick. That’s a, a really big deal. If you’re not grateful for it, then you haven’t gotten your lesson from it.

AJ: Yeah.

Rory: Like if you’re not grateful for it yet, you haven’t learned the lesson from it yet.

Mm-hmm. That’s really good.

AJ: And I think with that, again, that’s all of us discerning. Am I telling the story so that others can learn a lesson? Right. Good or bad. Right. And I think those are really important. It’s like when I decide to share something, to be authentic, to be vulnerable, I am going, there is something in this for [00:31:00] you.

And if I don’t know what it is, then I don’t share. I don’t share it. And you know, I think another example is, you know, in our book, wealthy and Well-Known that came out this, you know, past summer, I told the first time ever the public story of our family’s car accident. That’s a great example of for the last, however old I am, 35 years, I haven’t been clear on the lesson from that tragic car accident, so I’ve never shared it.

I’ve never shared the story. I’ve never done podcasts. I’ve never spoken about it. I’ve never written about it. It’s because I wasn’t clear on what benefit does this have to anyone else other than some biographical story of my life. The moment I got clear on, oh, this is the reason to share this story, this is the lesson.

Only then did I start, start sharing that story and that took, you know, [00:32:00] let’s just sense adulthood. That took 22 years to get clear on what’s the benefit of sharing this story for someone else. And so it’s, there’s not necessarily a timing on it. It’s going when you get clear that this story that has occurred in my life has the benefit to help someone else, then I know that it’s time to share, to be authentic, to be vulnerable.

And until I’m clear on that,

Rory: yeah, I don’t talk about it. And this is the difference between self-centered and service centered. When I’m processing something, it’s self-centered. When I want to tell a story so people agree with me or take my side, it’s self-centered. If I’m trying to sort out my emotions, it’s self-centered.

When I’m telling a story for the purpose of. And a lesson for someone else that’s service centered. And it reminds me of, you know, one of my, my speaking mentors, Craig Valentine, uh, when we, we talk about storytelling, he used to say, tell an I focused story. But a you focused message. [00:33:00] That’s one of the secret parts of story.

If you can only tell the I focus story, you’re not ready to tell the story yet. Mm mm-hmm. That’s what I’m taking from you is just like, until you can deliver that, you focused message. You’re not ready to tell, tell the story publicly. I, I think that’s super powerful and a sharp distinction.

AJ: Yeah, and I think those are the things where I really lean into this, uh, definition of authenticity, of just being willing to be honest.

And really looking through the lens of if we’re gonna share something, right, be authentic. It’s in the service, it’s in the benefit of the listener, of the audience. And in that regard, be authentic, share. Um, and that’s, that to me is that little bit of a delineation. And when I know there’s a lot of industries out there where this comes up of, well, I can’t really be authentic because of compliance issues or.

I’ve signed NDAs or you know, there’s regulatory issues that I can’t, can’t, can’t, and I’m like, [00:34:00] no, when I say this, in all kindness, those are big, fat excuses, right? That you’re thinking through the details, uh, the micro components, the oversharing components of the story, and it’s like nobody needs to know the X, Y, Z details.

At a higher level story, what’s the lesson that you would share? And I think that’s where people get stuck and caught up with, I can’t really be myself. I can’t be authentic because you know, I’m in a, you know NDA or I’m in a this and it’s like yes and right. It’s like back to, you know, when I got fired. I can tell that.

Are you gonna learn all the, the nitty gritty details? No. Once not pertinent to the story or the lesson. Don’t, you don’t need know don to. Mm-hmm. But also that’s oversharing. And so I think this is also really applicable to anyone who’s listening, who’s in a regulatory or highly compliant, or you have an NDA.

It’s, if you’re worried about that, [00:35:00] then you’re already too concerned on the specifics, not the lesson. Don’t focus on the story. Focus on the lesson that you learned. For somebody else.

Rory: One of the other things I think you should highlight for everybody, or I guess I will underscore that you’ve said that I really do love about this conversation is share the hard parts of your story.

Mm-hmm. You said that a while back, and to me that feels honest. Mm-hmm. And that feels real. And I do feel like there is a general. Unwillingness for people to share the hard parts of their story

AJ: because they’re hard.

Rory: Yes. How have you gotten yourself to be able to share the hard parts of your story? Like how did you overcome that fear of like whatever, whatever was holding, what was holding you back from doing it?

What did you learn and then like what has sharing the hard parts of your story done?

AJ: Yeah, I think the, for [00:36:00] any of you who are struggling with, you know, this idea of being authentic and sharing the hard parts, it’s, it’s only hard sharing the hard parts when you think that the hard parts define you. And what I have learned about myself and.

Lots of conversations of others is that most of us refrain from sharing the hard parts because we think it changes the way that others view us. And that is really self-centered. It it’s really about how do I want to be seen versus how can I serve? And for me, when I realized, oh, I’m protecting this image, I realized, wow, like I’m really overly consumed with myself.

I think that was like an aha moment of like what’s harder than being self-consumed and self-centered. Like that was the harder thing for me to grasp of like, wow, like that. That was a hard pill to swallow for me of like, I’m being [00:37:00] so self-centered. I am being so self-consumed with my image and the way people view me and the way I want to be seen, that I’m not even allowing anyone to actually know me, and that’s a pretty lonely life.

And so I think for me, it’s for all of us to realize it’s the hard parts that actually allow people to get to know you. And at the end of the day, that’s why we share is so that people get to, to have a larger glimpse of we’re not alone. Like none of us. We all go through hard parts. We all have hard days.

We all have hard stories. We’ve all been through hard things to varying degrees. When we refuse to share those, it’s like we’re creating ourselves in these little isolated bubbles. And the moment that you start sharing those, you create real connection. And the very first time I shared, you know, that I was fired, there was someone in the room, her name is, uh, Shire, and she walked up to me and she was like, [00:38:00] I, I can’t believe you just shared that.

That exact same story happened to me just a few months ago. I thought I was all alone. I was too embarrassed to tell anyone, not even my friends. No. And it hit me for the first time, oh, this is what connection means. It’s like when your story has the ability to connect you to another human being, to let them know that they’re not alone.

And so I think a lot of sharing the hard parts has everything to do with have you healed from it? And when you haven’t healed from it, it’s still hard. And if it’s still hard to share and it’s still hard to talk about, then it’s just the signal that you haven’t healed from it. And if you haven’t healed from it, then you’re not ready to share it.

But when you can share it without it actually affecting you, then you know that you’ve healed and you’re ready to share.

Rory: That’s beautiful. I love authenticity.

AJ: A full [00:39:00] 360 turnaround. That

Rory: is, I mean, honest honesty and connection and service centeredness. Sign me up if that’s what we’re talking about. I’m totally on board.

AJ: This is one of our favorite segments where we get to take a question from BBG members and the most voted question gets asked on the show today. So that’s what we’re gonna do right now. So here’s the question. Everyone keeps telling me to be more authentic, but I don’t know where the line is between connection and oversharing.

Oh, what an appropriate question for today’s conversation. How do I know what’s appropriate for my audience and what actually hurts my brand? Great question, right? Because there’s that line of what do you share to be, uh, connecting and to be personable? And then what’s the line of like, oh, that was oversharing and now it has hurt my reputation.

So, Rory, since you’re such a fan of this topic, why don’t you [00:40:00] start,

Rory: I don’t know the answer to this question, um, because there’s a part of me that would say. If you don’t feel comfortable sharing it, don’t share it. Yeah,

AJ: I said, good luck MS test.

Rory: But then there’s another part of me that goes, you’re never gonna be comfortable sharing the hard parts of your story. So it requires you at some point to get uncomfortable.

So I think I would probably just go back to some of the highlights of what we’ve talked about in the episode. Number one, if I’m still processing it. It’s too early to share it.

AJ: Yeah.

Rory: You know, if I haven’t healed from it, it’s too early to share it. Number two, if it’s going, if me sharing it is going to hurt another person or damage my relationship with another person,

AJ: don’t share.

Rory: Don’t share it. And then I think three, which is [00:41:00] another theme from the the episode, is if you can’t frame it in the form of a service centered lesson for somebody else. Don’t share it because that really means you’re back to number one, which is you’re still processing it. Mm. So those, I guess, would be the three rules and most of that came out of this conversation today.

AJ: Yeah, I think those are really good. And I think the only thing that I would say to this question of, you know, how do you know what’s appropriate for your audience and what could actually hurt your brand is I never recommend sharing the hard parts of your story or, you know, sharing the difficult parts online first.

I think this is back to the value and the importance of offline relationships, offline, um, conversations. Um, and I always start with going like, Hey, before I throw something online where it can be taken out of context, uh, because that does happen. It’s like, you know, how many of us get those [00:42:00] emails where you read it in the, in the voice that you’re feeling, not in the voice it was written.

I think that happens the same. The exact same thing happens online. We interpret something, we hear something in the mood that we’re in, not in the mood that the story or the lesson was created, and so I just think it’s really valuable that you do a lot of this offline before you do it online. Right? If you haven’t been willing to share this with your closest, trusted friends and family.

Why are you sharing it with a bunch of strangers on the internet? Don’t your friends and family need to benefit from your life experiences too? So like, I just think this is a really important litmus test of going, like, if you don’t feel good enough about it, that you wouldn’t share the people who are next to you, the people you work with, the people that you do life with, then why would you be sharing it with a bunch of strangers?

That you don’t know. Um, and so I think that too is a litmus test. If you haven’t been willing to share [00:43:00] it, if you haven’t talked about it, haven’t had conversations about it offline, then it’s probably not ready to go online. That would be the thing I would add.

Rory: One thing that I would add on this too, is if you are passionate about something, I think you should share it where I, what, what I think her.

Hurts people is when they’re so passionate about something and they don’t feel like they can talk about it because they feel like they’ll be judged for it. Hmm. And I remember when we had the whole conversation about my Eternal Life podcast and me being a skeptical of Christianity and doing the research and becoming a believer.

I was talking to you one time and I’m like, I don’t think I can share this. I think that customers. We might lose customers over it. I, I think I have friends that are not Christian who might be hurt by it. Mm-hmm. Um, and you said to me, [00:44:00] which is right out of the Bible, you were like, are you living for the approval of man?

And that gave me a lot of conviction to go, if I’m really passionate about something, I need to be okay. That some people would eject me from their life because of that. To go. I would rather be ejected from someone’s life, but get to be who I really am than stay in someone’s life and have to constantly cover up who I really am.

Mm-hmm. So I think, you know. Hurt and healing and fear is, is is one separate place that I think is a little more gray area of what to, to share. But if you’re passionate about puppies, if you’re passionate about trees, if you’re passionate about something, you know, I, I think you can, you tend to skew more towards sharing it.

Yeah. Because if you’re not sharing it and you’re passionate about it, I think you are, you’re, [00:45:00] you’re tempering. Your God-given desire of like what you care about. And I think that’s how you lose yourself is when you’re not, when you’re, it’s, it’s one thing to share the hard parts of your story. It’s another thing to dim the thing that you care so deeply about.

Mm-hmm. And you know, I’m very weird in that way. I love Jesus, and I love digital marketing, and I love speaking, and I love my family. It’s like a weird combination of things, but it’s like those are the things that I, I genuinely love, and if there was any one of those things that I purposely tempered and, and held myself throttled.

Then I would start to feel like I was losing myself. Mm-hmm. And I, so I think it’s, there is a, there is a courage and a conviction that you gave me, particularly with the Eternal Life Podcast to go if you are genuinely passionate about it and it’s not hurtful to others.

AJ: I think that’s the key [00:46:00] though, right there.

It’s as long as it’s not hurtful to others, and I think it’s like we can all believe different things and coexist. We can believe different things and still have dinner together and still be friends and still work together. Uh, and, uh, those are, uh. Maybe hard concepts to believe these days, but like we can all believe very different things and still coexist.

And I think the reason that that line is blurry sometimes is your, your zeal and your passion can sometimes, not yours, I’m saying in general, come across as hurtful and that’s what we have to temper. It’s like I can share what I believe without telling anyone else what they believe is wrong.

Rory: Yes.

AJ: Right.

It’s like this isn’t about anyone being right or wrong, it’s just me sharing. What I believe, what I’m passionate about and not condemning anyone else for what they believe. And I think that’s a, that’s a clear filter of, as long as it’s not hurtful. Let your passions fly.

Rory: And that’s the boundary of freedom in general, right?

It’s like I am free [00:47:00] to be me un until I am imposing upon you. Mm-hmm. That I think is going ’cause because then, uh, my freedom has overpowered yours and so we’re not able to, to coexist. So I, I guess that that is really a key part of it. Yeah. Is like it’s not harmful to others.

AJ: I think that’s probably key to this question, right?

Like how do you know what’s appropriate to share and what might be harmful to your brand is to just make sure it’s not harmful to anyone else. If it’s harmful to someone else, it’ll be harmful to your brand, but if it’s helpful to someone else, it will be helpful to your brand. I.