Tag: Rory and AJ Vaden | Episode

WWK Ep 036: Content Strategy vs. Content Calendar: Why Posting More Isn’t Working

01:00:00:00 – 01:00:05:17
Speaker 3
a content calendar is like a production process of managing a bunch of mechanics.

01:00:05:17 – 01:00:07:02
Speaker 2
that’s not a strategy.

01:00:07:03 – 01:00:08:21
Speaker 2
That’s a repurposing

01:00:08:21 – 01:00:09:17
Speaker 2
process.

01:00:09:17 – 01:00:11:02
Speaker 3
A content strategy

01:00:11:02 – 01:00:14:01
Speaker 3
is a purpose driven, mission driven message

01:00:14:04 – 01:00:22:19
Speaker 1
Most of you listening have a content calendar, but no real content strategy. And that’s why you’re exhausted, burned out, and still feeling invisible on social media.

01:00:22:19 – 01:00:26:00
Speaker 2
There’s a difference between going viral and converting into customers.

01:00:26:01 – 01:00:26:11
Speaker 3
Exactly.

01:00:26:11 – 01:00:37:15
Speaker 1
We break down the difference between just creating content and creating content that actually converts, showing you what keeps entrepreneurs busy versus what our top performing clients do to turn content into customers.

01:00:37:15 – 01:00:41:19
Speaker 3
you’re most powerfully positioned to serve the person you once were.

01:00:41:21 – 01:00:46:05
Speaker 1
Ever wonder what it actually takes to build a reputation that generates revenue?

01:00:46:08 – 01:00:50:20
Speaker 1
Rory and AJ Vaden are the powerhouse duo behind Brand Builders Group,

01:00:50:22 – 01:00:52:17
Speaker 1
NYT bestselling authors

01:00:52:19 – 01:00:58:12
Speaker 1
the personal brand experts who have helped some of the world’s most influential leaders scale their personal brands.

01:00:58:15 – 01:00:59:04
Speaker 1
Now

01:00:59:07 – 01:01:00:12
Speaker 1
they’re pulling back the curtain

01:01:00:12 – 01:01:01:21
Speaker 1
on how to capture attention,

01:01:01:21 – 01:01:03:08
Speaker 1
build massive trust,

01:01:03:10 – 01:01:06:05
Speaker 1
turn your expertise into a lasting legacy.

01:01:06:06 – 01:01:13:06
Speaker 1
Get ready to elevate your influence and your income. This is wealthy and well known.

01:01:13:08 – 01:01:17:12
Speaker 2
Most of you listening have a content calendar. Or at least

01:01:17:14 – 01:01:33:14
Speaker 2
some part of one. The challenge is that many of you have zero content strategy, and that’s the reason that most entrepreneurs are exhausted, burned out, and at the end of the day, still feeling invisible with all of their efforts on social media.

01:01:33:16 – 01:01:33:23
Speaker 3
Yeah.

01:01:33:23 – 01:01:43:14
Speaker 3
So we’ll talk about that on this episode and some of our philosophies and strategies around creating content that works in today’s era and market so well.

01:01:43:14 – 01:02:09:11
Speaker 2
Here’s where I think we should start, because I have so many conversations with so many individuals who are just frustrated, overwhelmed, and quite honestly convince themselves that they can’t get customers on social media. Yeah, they’re like, this doesn’t work. It’s not working for me. Like, I literally had a conversation with one of our clients less than a week ago that was like, I’ve been doing exactly what you said for two years, and it doesn’t work.

01:02:09:12 – 01:02:27:04
Speaker 2
I haven’t grown, I haven’t gotten one customer. And my first response is, well, then you’re not doing it right. But then my second response was, why do you think that you’re doing exactly what I said? Tell me exactly what it is that we tell you to do that you’re doing. That’s not working.

01:02:27:05 – 01:02:29:22
Speaker 3
What did they say? That’s a great that’s a great thing. Yeah.

01:02:29:23 – 01:02:35:03
Speaker 2
And it was very fast. And they’re like, I post every single day. And I was like.

01:02:35:04 – 01:02:36:15
Speaker 3
We don’t even tell people to do that.

01:02:36:16 – 01:02:53:20
Speaker 2
Interesting. And they were like, I follow the content diamond like I. And for those of you who are listening, who are like, what’s a content diamond? We’re going to talk about that in this episode. But they’re like, I have been doing the content diamond every week for a year, posting consistently, but then it really got me thinking. It’s like, but

01:02:53:20 – 01:02:55:05
Speaker 2
that’s not a strategy.

01:02:55:06 – 01:02:58:08
Speaker 2
That’s a repurposing process.

01:02:58:14 – 01:03:03:16
Speaker 2
And so I took a little time and I just pulled up their social media.

01:03:03:18 – 01:03:09:16
Speaker 2
and I made some notes and I thought, well, that’s not that doesn’t line up.

01:03:09:17 – 01:03:16:12
Speaker 3
Yeah. So what did you see? That was the gap between what they thought they were doing right and what they were actually doing.

01:03:16:13 – 01:03:32:02
Speaker 2
So here are three things that I think is really important for everyone to pay attention to. The first thing was that they had started an entirely new Instagram account that was not their personal Instagram account. That was a new business account.

01:03:32:04 – 01:03:33:20
Speaker 3
Oh, that business only account.

01:03:33:21 – 01:03:54:03
Speaker 2
Well, not necessarily a business only account, but a an account that they created for their brand. Okay, so now they are separating everything that was who they are. And to only post in content about their product and service. And I thought well we don’t say to do that. That’s, that was the first kind of inclination of why did you do that?

01:03:54:03 – 01:04:13:06
Speaker 2
And they’re like, well, I didn’t find the anyone who was getting any traction and I wasn’t really making any progress on my personal account. So I banned and shipped, made a completely new one. But then when I was on the account, I noticed that it was a woman everywhere. And this particular clients, not a woman. And so I’m like, where are you?

01:04:13:07 – 01:04:22:04
Speaker 2
And they’re like, well, I my product and service is primarily for women. So I figured I needed a woman to do all my content.

01:04:22:09 – 01:04:27:22
Speaker 3
Interesting. So you outsourced your personal brand to not your person?

01:04:28:00 – 01:04:28:15
Speaker 2
Yes.

01:04:28:16 – 01:04:29:03
Speaker 3
Wow.

01:04:29:04 – 01:04:44:07
Speaker 2
And I said, well, how’s that working? It’s not working. I’m like, can’t imagine why that that’s not working. And then the third thing is, none of it was actually about the customer. It was all about the product.

01:04:44:08 – 01:04:46:20
Speaker 3
Oh, there’s the there’s the, there’s the biggest problem.

01:04:46:20 – 01:05:11:00
Speaker 2
And so it just hit me for the very first time in a very tactical like, I can see the difference between what is a content calendar, what you’re doing with consistency. What you’re doing is what you think is repurposing versus a real strategy. And this was all about, hey, what are tips and tricks and formulas and diet combos and workouts?

01:05:11:00 – 01:05:35:14
Speaker 2
And I’m like, that has nothing to do with answering the questions that your customer has. Like, why would they want to have these recipes? Like, what is their desire and their need for some sort of fitness routine? Which is also ironic because this particular clients program has nothing to do with fitness. And I’m like, there’s a disconnect here that you clearly can’t see that old saying, you’re too close to the forest to see the trees.

01:05:35:16 – 01:05:53:17
Speaker 2
And that’s true for all of us, because when we’re so busy, we’re so in it and we’re just like, we’re trying to do all the things that everyone is saying, and the algorithm is changing all the time. The platforms are changing and merging, and now there’s AI, and it’s like we’re just scrambling to try to keep up because most of us don’t have a team right there.

01:05:53:18 – 01:06:12:22
Speaker 2
We are the people creating the content, making the content calendar, filming the content, posting the content. And it’s it is exhausting. And that’s not to say everyone should be doing that, which I think is something we should touch on at some point. And I don’t necessarily think everyone should be on every platform, but that’s a part of the strategy.

01:06:13:00 – 01:06:35:12
Speaker 2
But when you’re just trying to repurpose because people are like, hey, you need this mini, you know, this many posts or this mini reels, this mini platforms at this many times, that’s a calendar. That’s not a strategy. And that’s the difference between social media and thought leadership. There’s a difference between content and social media. And I think today we really need to define what is content.

01:06:35:12 – 01:06:37:18
Speaker 2
And then what is social media.

01:06:37:20 – 01:07:01:00
Speaker 3
And what is strategy and how do those work together. You know, two tactical things that I was thinking about that are mistakes that creators thought leaders make while you were talking. So number one is you don’t want to create content about your product or service. You want to create content that is useful for the types of people who buy your product and service.

01:07:01:02 – 01:07:12:18
Speaker 3
no one’s going to pay attention. If all you’re doing is talking about the thing that you sell. It’s like you got to create content that is useful for people, and that it is for the type of people who buy the thing that you sell.

01:07:12:19 – 01:07:14:20
Speaker 3
And I think a lot of people miss that.

01:07:14:23 – 01:07:41:01
Speaker 3
The other thing that you said, that really blows me away as a huge mistake is outsourcing your personality. Like, the whole thing is this is your personal brand. It the trust comes from you as an individual. And one of my favorite examples is Jefferson Fisher. I mean, this guy built a huge following and it is just phone to camera in his car and that’s it.

01:07:41:02 – 01:08:00:13
Speaker 3
No studio, no fancy mics, no fancy editing, just sharing his expertise. And and like your your person is like a really critical part of your personality and your personal brand. And I think people just are overthinking this and overcomplicating it.

01:08:00:15 – 01:08:22:07
Speaker 2
But I would say the other thing too, is they’re over producing it. Yeah. Like to the point with Jefferson Fisher. And again, that’s all based on what size you are. How long you been in the game? What what the goals and intent are with your different social media accounts. Like are you really immediate entity versus hey. Am I trying to serve and build an audience for my back end, like whatever your primary businesses.

01:08:22:08 – 01:08:46:02
Speaker 2
And that’s one of the things that I have found is very interesting is the more produced it is, quite honestly, at least for me personally, the less likely I am to engage in it. That may not be true for everyone, but that comes back to the strategy of building and creating content that is for your unique audience, and really getting to know them to the point where it’s like,

01:08:46:04 – 01:08:48:01
Speaker 2
I know what they need, I know what they want.

01:08:48:02 – 01:08:51:13
Speaker 2
I know what questions they have, and I’m going to give them the answers.

01:08:51:14 – 01:09:23:05
Speaker 3
Yeah, and I would I want to make sure that people know that a lot of the big creators who have teams are frustrated with the content that their teams are putting out, and a lot of the very polished content is not outperforming the very raw content to this day. By far the highest performing content we have is when you or I talk directly to the camera on the phone like nothing even comes close on a consistent basis to, to to beating that.

01:09:23:11 – 01:09:45:15
Speaker 3
And so I think a lot of new thought leaders or experts who are newer to content creation or social media, they actually like to hide behind the excuse, oh, well, I’ll do this when I have a nicer camera, a bigger setup, more team and go, that’s not it, you. Actually, the magic is in the realness. The magic is in just being honest.

01:09:45:15 – 01:10:04:15
Speaker 3
And the magic, honestly, is being is being useful for your audience. Whether that is really polished like this has become pretty polished over time, or it’s talking direct to the camera, but it’s like, how are you useful to the person on the other side? Doesn’t mean the makeup has to be perfect, doesn’t mean the script has to be perfect.

01:10:04:15 – 01:10:07:15
Speaker 3
It just means you have to be real and useful.

01:10:07:15 – 01:10:13:20
Speaker 2
Yeah. So I think this is a perfect transition to what is a content calendar versus content strategy.

01:10:13:20 – 01:10:17:10
Speaker 2
So let’s talk about what is a content strategy and how do you get one.

01:10:17:11 – 01:10:18:00
Speaker 3
Okay.

01:10:18:02 – 01:10:36:13
Speaker 3
when most people hear that term content strategy, what they think, I think what they think is wrong. They think social media. When I hear the term content strategy, I think of how social media is going to capture a lead, how we’re going to use email and other things to nurture that lead.

01:10:36:13 – 01:11:00:11
Speaker 3
And then what conversion element do we have in place to move that relationship from trust and ultimately into a transaction? And I think those latter two parts are completely missing from the from the minds of people in that equation. They just think content strategy is like my hook for Instagram, or like my thumbnail on YouTube or my topic selection.

01:11:00:11 – 01:11:29:10
Speaker 3
And to me I’m going, no, that’s just the a piece of the strategy of the of the first third of the overall strategy. And if you don’t have a way to nurture those leads, then it doesn’t matter how much front end strategy you have, you’re never going to make money. So even if this person was doing everything right with the the attract part, if they don’t have a content strategy for the nurture and they don’t have a content strategy for the conversion, then they don’t have a content strategy.

01:11:29:10 – 01:11:35:11
Speaker 3
So that’s how my mind is that how you think of the term, or do you think differently about that term content strategy?

01:11:35:12 – 01:11:55:03
Speaker 2
You know, honestly, yes. But I feel like that’s even step two. Like there’s there’s a step even before that, which is what do you actually have to say? And I think there’s a huge part in that where when things really aren’t clicking and they’re not converting, at some point you have to look at the content to go like, are we missing the mark?

01:11:55:04 – 01:12:11:18
Speaker 2
Are we not reaching our avatar? Are we missing what we’re talking about? Are we over generalizing? Are we trying to whitewash it? Because I think a lot of people are trying to be too broad to general to reach the masses, and that ultimately doesn’t work.

01:12:11:18 – 01:12:17:03
Speaker 3
Well. Yeah. And that’s that’s another major misconception creators have about content.

01:12:17:03 – 01:12:25:13
Speaker 3
They go, I want millions of views and I want lots of customers. And I think it’s more of a question of like, which one do you really want?

01:12:25:14 – 01:12:28:16
Speaker 3
Do you want millions of views or do you want to make money?

01:12:28:18 – 01:12:31:23
Speaker 2
There’s a difference between going viral and converting into customers.

01:12:32:03 – 01:12:32:10
Speaker 3
Exactly.

01:12:32:11 – 01:12:33:12
Speaker 2
Those are different formulas.

01:12:33:12 – 01:12:57:19
Speaker 3
So you when you’re going viral, you are over generalizing. You are watering down. You are appealing to the masses. That’s the definition of viral is creating a piece of content that applies to everyone. When you’re converting customers, you’re creating content that appeals to your avatar, your ICP, your, your person. And and so I think that’s a that is a big part of the struggle.

01:12:57:19 – 01:12:57:23
Speaker 3
So,

01:12:57:23 – 01:13:06:22
Speaker 3
what do you suggest then creators do in terms of how do they select or what type of content should they be creating to, to to fight that balance?

01:13:06:23 – 01:13:25:22
Speaker 2
Yeah. And you guys, if you listen to the show, you’ve heard us say this before, but it start with who? It’s like, who are you making this content for. And it can’t be you. Like you’re not making it for yourself. And what, what what else you’re not doing is you’re not making it for the platform. And I hear a lot of people say, well, this is the content for Instagram.

01:13:26:00 – 01:13:51:17
Speaker 2
Like Instagram is not your avatar, Facebook is not your avatar. TikTok, YouTube, they are not your avatar. That’s not what you’re doing. You are making this content for a human being, a person that you have the ability to help. But again, this is all in context around conversion, whether that’s a follower into an email address, an email address, into a webinar, registration to a customer.

01:13:51:18 – 01:13:52:04
Speaker 2
Right.

01:13:52:04 – 01:14:00:10
Speaker 2
This is the unsexy work that people really don’t love to do, right? They’re like, oh, I’ve done that exercise before. Check. Moving on.

01:14:00:10 – 01:14:04:10
Speaker 3
It’s a 35 to 45 year old female who feels this way, and they think.

01:14:04:10 – 01:14:04:17
Speaker 2
They’re.

01:14:04:17 – 01:14:05:02
Speaker 3
Not it.

01:14:05:03 – 01:14:06:00
Speaker 2
That’s not it. Right.

01:14:06:00 – 01:14:16:11
Speaker 3
I actually am one of those people where I’m like, I don’t want to do this, this work. I’m like, I kind of got it. And then but you’ve always really forced us as a company to be like, no deeper on the who.

01:14:16:11 – 01:14:30:16
Speaker 3
So what do you think most thought leaders do to check the avatar box, or the ideal client profile box, versus what should they be doing to create and drive a real content strategy that converts?

01:14:30:17 – 01:14:46:15
Speaker 2
Yeah. I mean, I would say for every exercise you’ve ever done, go do it again, but do it through the lens of service versus the lens of marketing and advertising. And I think a lot of people are doing it through the lens of marketing and advertising. And I’m not saying.

01:14:46:15 – 01:14:55:06
Speaker 3
Which is like total addressable market. How much income do they have? I want to sell to rich people fast and like make a lot of money. And it’s like, that’s not changing the world.

01:14:55:07 – 01:15:18:07
Speaker 2
Yeah. But more importantly, it’s not changing a life. Right? And you can’t change the world until you change people, and then people change the world. And so I think a lot of it is looking at this avatar, right? This ideal customer, this ideal prospect exercise. And there’s millions of them out there. We have a huge part of our curriculum that does that, but it doesn’t have to be with us.

01:15:18:07 – 01:15:38:20
Speaker 2
You can do this in a million different ways, but the heart behind it, the purpose, the intention of it is to really get into an emotional and get in touch emotionally and mentally and physically, spiritually with what is it about this person that I know that I can help?

01:15:38:20 – 01:15:41:15
Speaker 2
Like what fears do they have? What questions do they have?

01:15:41:15 – 01:15:55:02
Speaker 2
What dreams do they have? What keeps them up at night? What is holding them back? What are all of the things that psychologically are manifested in their body, in their brain? Where I’m going

01:15:55:02 – 01:15:56:12
Speaker 2
I have the answer to that.

01:15:56:14 – 01:16:19:15
Speaker 2
Most of us really undervalue the true expertise, the true knowledge we have in an area, because it’s very common to us, and we forget that there’s an entire population of people out there that this is not what they eat, live and breathe every single day. And because you hang out with people that are like you, everyone’s up to speed on, you know.

01:16:19:17 – 01:16:27:16
Speaker 3
This is called the curse of knowledge. When you underestimate the value of what you know because you know it so well, it’s been your whole life to assume everyone else.

01:16:27:17 – 01:16:43:19
Speaker 2
You assume everyone else does. You never talk about it, you never share it, and you hold it in. And we say this all the time. It’s like it is not of service to be the world’s best kept secret. If you have all this knowledge, you’re like, well, you know, they didn’t ask. And it’s like, well, no, they didn’t, but that doesn’t mean they’re not seeking.

01:16:43:19 – 01:17:08:11
Speaker 2
And the point of you creating thought leadership, creating content, your products and services are to go and serve those unique individuals. The problem is that when you don’t focus in on a person versus a group of people, it has to be a person. Then everything does come out generic. Most of us have set in an audience in a church and left going.

01:17:08:13 – 01:17:30:12
Speaker 2
How? How could that have been so uniquely to me? Like, are they reading my journal? Did my spouse call them? Like, how could that have been so uniquely designed to hit me exactly where it hit me today? And when that happens, you know that this this content, this message, this keynote, this presentation, the sermon was created with intentionality for a person.

01:17:30:12 – 01:17:55:12
Speaker 2
And I know the most impactful presentations in the world were created because someone set down and said, I know someone that needs to hear this, and if there’s at least one, there has to be at least one more and likely one more after that. So I’m going to hit the bull’s eye of this target so uniquely, so specifically because I have a person in mind and for most of it is someone we know and it’s who we used to be or it’s for us.

01:17:55:12 – 01:18:24:10
Speaker 2
And because of that, that dialed in nature of how target it is, the right person hears it in a way that they’re like, oh, that’s for me. Like, I’ve been looking for this. How did this show up in my feed today? And I think that’s really that’s what people miss. They use it as a marketing exercise versus an exercise of I have a unique gifting, a unique set of skills, a unique knowledge base that actually has the power to change someone’s life.

01:18:24:10 – 01:18:45:03
Speaker 3
Yeah. And I think that a lot of people do that avatar exercise is like, what’s the fastest way for me to make profit? But really, you should think of that avatar exercise as what’s the fastest way to find my purpose? Because I think for most of us, our why is a who like the reason for for at least for our audience.

01:18:45:03 – 01:18:51:02
Speaker 3
We know that our audience is mission driven messengers. They’re doing this not just to make money, but to make a difference.

01:18:51:02 – 01:18:55:07
Speaker 3
It’s going, this is the purpose of my business. This is why I exist.

01:18:55:07 – 01:18:57:23
Speaker 3
I exist to serve this person.

01:18:57:23 – 01:19:20:16
Speaker 3
And you know, as you’re talking, I walk away with three very tactical, specific things you said. So one is don’t talk to people. Talk to a person. Number two, it’s not so much about demographics is about psychographics, their feelings. And then number three, and this is this is the ultimate secret. And if you if you get this, you get everything.

01:19:20:16 – 01:19:24:16
Speaker 3
If you don’t get this, you’re probably going to miss it. And it’s the thing that we say all the time,

01:19:24:16 – 01:19:28:20
Speaker 3
you’re most powerfully positioned to serve the person you once were.

01:19:28:22 – 01:19:45:03
Speaker 3
Why do we say that? Because it’s true. Because that’s the person you know in the deepest way. And I think one of my favorite quotes of all time is from Henry Ford, where he says, if I would have asked people what they wanted, they would have said a faster horse.

01:19:45:05 – 01:19:56:05
Speaker 3
I think the reason that people haven’t asked you for your advice is because they don’t even know what to ask. You know their journey better than they do.

01:19:56:07 – 01:20:02:01
Speaker 3
Because I’ve already been down it. And that’s the content that is so powerful if you’re serving the person you once were.

01:20:02:02 – 01:20:05:11
Speaker 2
And honestly, that is step one of content strategy.

01:20:05:11 – 01:20:06:03
Speaker 3
Is the who.

01:20:06:04 – 01:20:11:21
Speaker 2
It is the who. Because once you have that, the very next thing you do is go, what are the questions they have?

01:20:11:21 – 01:20:32:04
Speaker 2
And that is the basis of your content. Everything stems. Everything comes out of knowing what are the questions they have that I have the answers to? Because if I’m constantly asking the same question in my head or in my circle, and I’m not getting an answer and I’m just ruminating on how do I do this, how do I do this, how do I do this?

01:20:32:04 – 01:20:51:03
Speaker 2
And then I come across a person and a book, a keynote, a presentation, a real it doesn’t matter, a podcast. And they have the answer, what am I going to do? I’m going to learn more. Well, I got to learn about this person. What else do they do? Like what other episodes do they have? Like what book do I need to buy?

01:20:51:03 – 01:21:15:04
Speaker 2
What what programs do they offer? But it’s because there was a specific question answered that is really uniquely tailored to me. So I just think that that is the unsexy behind the scenes. No one gets to see the end result of it immediately. We want to rush through it. But if we if we skip that part, if we don’t nail that part, then the results are exhausted, overwhelmed, burned out and visible.

01:21:15:05 – 01:21:21:19
Speaker 2
Doing all the work and not seeing the results. And it’s because we didn’t do it with a person in mind to begin with.

01:21:21:21 – 01:21:56:09
Speaker 3
If if someone is struggling with their content right now or they’re going, it’s not converting, it’s not performing. My guess is they are they they don’t understand the difference between intensity and specificity. And if you are in a crowded room, a networking space, there’s this murmur over the room. You don’t hear the conversation, but the moment someone says Amanda or AJ or Rory, it it rips you like we could be having a conversation and somebody over here says Rory.

01:21:56:10 – 01:22:27:02
Speaker 3
And it would. It rips my attention from our conversation. It steals it. But it’s not because they yelled it. It’s because they used my name. That’s the difference between intensity or volume versus specificity. And I think thought leaders really need to choose to go. Do I want a million people to see this, or would I rather have ten people see this that would buy, because it’s such a specific signal that I become the only option.

01:22:27:02 – 01:22:48:11
Speaker 3
And they trust me. And I think the other part that is is tearing at them is their ego. Because the ego is like, I want to I want to help everybody. I want to have millions of people see my stuff versus going, now I if ten people buy from me. I can change those ten lives and I can also make a lot more money.

01:22:48:12 – 01:22:55:13
Speaker 2
Yeah. So I think that this whole idea of content strategy starts with the who and then everything comes out of that.

01:22:55:13 – 01:22:59:20
Speaker 2
once you know your who, that also helps you prioritize the platform.

01:22:59:20 – 01:23:28:08
Speaker 2
And the whole idea of why I think a lot of people are exhausted and overwhelmed is they’re trying to produce content or repurpose content for every single platform out there, and they don’t have a team, right? And guess what? YouTube is very different than meta, which is very different than LinkedIn. And I think there’s a lot of stuff happening where it’s going, hey, to be really successful in any one of these, you have to have a strategy for each one.

01:23:28:10 – 01:24:04:08
Speaker 2
I don’t believe that there is one universal social media strategy that works universally at this point of where we are in technology that’s like, hey, this this really works well for me here on Instagram. So I’m going to do the exact same thing on every other platform. That’s not necessarily true. And if you’re a solo, an entrepreneur where this is not your full time job, that is exhausting because it’s like whether you’re going to hire out every single agency or a person to do this full time, or you’re doing it yourself, and it’s like, I always say that with like me and taxes, I was like, how could I possibly keep up with the amount

01:24:04:08 – 01:24:38:07
Speaker 2
of tax changes and policy changes that are happening every single year? And then there’s new taxes for every single state, and every state does sales tax differently. Like, how could me as an entrepreneur constantly keep up with that? It’s impossible. And I feel a little bit like that with social media and content of going, hey, once you know who your avatar is, they most likely have a primary platform that they spend time on, which should be your primary platform that you create content for.

01:24:38:08 – 01:24:49:02
Speaker 2
That’s not to say you can’t share it to other platforms, but it’s also saying you shouldn’t dilute your efforts into every single platform. But by the look on your face you may disagree with.

01:24:49:03 – 01:25:11:17
Speaker 3
I mean, I’m processing. You say that you say that a lot, and I know I agree with I agree very much with the premise that every platform at this point requires a specific, unique strategy. I think the closest to a universal piece of content is short form video. Right? Because I think TikTok, Instagram, YouTube shorts, LinkedIn, meta, a short form video could work.

01:25:11:17 – 01:25:35:18
Speaker 3
But definitely just like we have videos that go viral on Instagram, the exact same video doesn’t go viral on TikTok. Like we know that same same with LinkedIn. So I agree with I very much agree with what you’re saying on that. I think, you know, there is a measure of what is the what is the cost of time to take one great piece of content and like literally put it in other places.

01:25:35:18 – 01:26:11:13
Speaker 3
Sometimes that cost is low enough that it’s worth it. But I think the real crux of the issue and where we’re aligned is when people think content calendar, they think content repurposing. They’re focused on the mechanics of social media. How much should I have to you know, Gary Vee says I have to post 100 pieces of content a week, or Alex Ramos poses 3000 pieces of content a week and it’s like, okay, I have to like, just do this, this, this arbitrary exercise of creating content and it’s the mechanics, and I should plan it out and I should schedule it going.

01:26:11:14 – 01:26:22:15
Speaker 3
No, the real part is the heartbeat behind it. It’s the it’s the emotional connection behind it. And I think listening just as we’ve gone through this, to me, it’s like

01:26:22:15 – 01:26:28:12
Speaker 3
a content calendar is like a production process of managing a bunch of mechanics.

01:26:28:14 – 01:26:33:05
Speaker 3
A content strategy is a purpose driven, mission driven message

01:26:33:05 – 01:26:41:00
Speaker 3
for a person. It’s a purpose that you know, it’s your life’s purpose and that is what has connection.

01:26:41:01 – 01:26:51:07
Speaker 3
The other one is just mechanics, and that’s why one works on us. Even if you have a small audience and the other doesn’t work, even if you’re paying a bunch of people to try to help you do a bunch of stuff.

01:26:51:08 – 01:27:13:21
Speaker 2
Yeah. I mean, I think the same thing happens in business, right? It’s like most people started a business or joined a business because they felt aligned with the purpose, the passion, the calling, the role, the people. But then you get into it and it becomes all about business because you get really caught up in all the tasks and the deadlines and the works and the projects and the updates and the calls and the meetings.

01:27:13:21 – 01:27:31:18
Speaker 2
And you look up one day and you’re like, wait, why are we doing this? What am I doing? And I think the exact same thing happens with your content. It’s like when it all becomes about the production schedule, the calendar, the algorithm, the views, the, the, the. I could go on and on just the it’s the the right.

01:27:31:19 – 01:27:38:07
Speaker 2
It’s like whatever the new the is when it becomes about that, it really does lose the heart behind it. Right? Because there is a

01:27:38:08 – 01:27:49:04
Speaker 2
heart and mission and purpose of content. But then there’s the business of content. And content has become a business, a very big business. But there is the heart of it and there’s the business of it.

01:27:49:04 – 01:28:04:20
Speaker 2
And we got to have both right. For it to really work. There has to be both, because you also can’t just be like, well, well, you know what I heard Rory and AJ say is that if I just tune into my avatar and just speak to the heart, it all worked. Well, we’re not saying that either. You’re just saying that’s where you have to start.

01:28:05:02 – 01:28:30:08
Speaker 2
But there is a science and a business of it too, of predictability, of going like, hey, humans thrive on consistency and regularity. And if I only hear from you sporadically every few months, it’s like, I’m not going to come because I never know what I’m going to get. So there is also, I think the nature of like humans do internally really thrive with routine and habits and expectations, and we have to give that to them too.

01:28:30:09 – 01:28:45:15
Speaker 2
And that’s where a calendar is really helpful. But it doesn’t have to be something that stresses you out, burns you out. And here’s what I would say for everyone listening when it comes to a content strategy versus a content calendar, the moment that it feels like it’s just a checklist for you is the moment

01:28:45:15 – 01:28:57:20
Speaker 2
You need to step back and go, whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa. Why am I doing this? Who am I doing it for? Because it’s all all too quickly become about the business of the content, not the person that it was actually built for.

01:28:57:22 – 01:29:18:05
Speaker 3
Yeah. So there’s two resources I think we can point people to to help them with this. So first of all, if you if you haven’t yet, go to Free Brand audiobook. It’s free. Free brand audiobook. And it’s you wrote the chapter on avatar in here. Oh actually no I did. I can’t remember who wrote the chapter we read.

01:29:18:06 – 01:29:41:03
Speaker 3
We read both of our each other’s chapters, but there’s a chapter in Wealthy and Well Known that walks through specifically avatar and how to find your who. And the other thing is, if you go, okay, I’ve done some of that work, I need some help managing the mechanics because because that does matter too. And going, I need some help pulling this together and figuring out, okay, what questions should I be asking?

01:29:41:04 – 01:30:00:10
Speaker 3
How do I organize all of this? If you go to free brand, call, free brand call, you can request a call, talk with our team one on one, and we’ll just get to hear a little bit about your vision and share with you how we support people. But the first call is free and we’ll we’ll walk you through how we work with people.

01:30:00:10 – 01:30:01:02
Speaker 3

01:30:01:04 – 01:30:02:18
Speaker 3
Was the last thing you want to leave people

01:30:02:20 – 01:30:05:21
Speaker 3
We’ve covered a lot of ground today. Final thoughts?

01:30:05:22 – 01:30:11:02
Speaker 2
Yeah, I think my final thoughts, if I were going to have anyone who’s listening walk away with an action item,

01:30:11:02 – 01:30:16:08
Speaker 2
it would genuinely be go back, sit down today and redo your avatar.

01:30:16:10 – 01:30:20:10
Speaker 2
it’s like setting goals. You don’t set one goal and never go back and said another.

01:30:20:10 – 01:30:33:09
Speaker 2
But a lot of people, they say, oh, I did that avatar exercise thing ten years ago or a year ago. And it’s like, well, you don’t do that with goals. What goals change and evolve? Guess what? So does your audience.

01:30:33:11 – 01:30:40:18
Speaker 2
So does your avatar. Because you grow and evolve, your business grows and evolve. Your products and services are changing constantly,

01:30:40:23 – 01:30:42:08
Speaker 2
especially in today’s market.

01:30:42:08 – 01:31:00:04
Speaker 2
So I think it’s a really good thing leaving this episode to go before I focus on the business, the mechanics, the calendar, the platforms, the algorithms, which after all important. I’m not saying they’re not. It’s to step back and go, hey, I need to pull up this avatar, this who? That my business is for

01:31:00:06 – 01:31:10:05
Speaker 2
once? You know you’re who in that intimate of a level, you will have the answer to all of those next questions that actually build out the content, calendar and mechanics.

01:31:10:07 – 01:31:18:05
Speaker 3
Yeah, we know as you get clear about who the question about every other downstream decision becomes super clear. And then I would say so

01:31:18:05 – 01:31:21:16
Speaker 3
I would agree first action, do that. Second action,

01:31:21:18 – 01:31:27:15
Speaker 3
Make a list of every single question that person has. Ancer those questions one at a time.

01:31:27:15 – 01:31:52:19
Speaker 3
And I would challenge everyone to go, don’t do it fancy. Do it right here. One question at a time. Answer a video. Post that every day and see if it doesn’t change everything about your business. Make sure you send this episode to someone who you think would enjoy it. Or if you’re listening, going, oh my gosh, I know exactly who needs to hear this episode if it isn’t you, but we would love also your help rating and reviewing this podcast wherever you listen.

01:31:52:19 – 01:32:04:01
Speaker 3
That helps new people find it and keeps us attracting the highest quality guests to to bring on this show for your benefit. We’re so glad you’re here. Until next time, go out and find someone to serve.

WWK Ep 034: Burnout Is an Alignment Problem

It was the lowest season of my marriage. I just did not have an ounce of energy left. My body was
telling me, you’re burnt out, woman. I think I’m on the verge of like a full-on meltdown.
Literally waking up with stress and anxiety of work. That was the first signal.
Everybody thinks burnout is about how much you’re doing, but we are going to make the case that
burnout is not always a volume issue. It’s an alignment issue. And we will explore the micro signs
that allow you to get ahead of it. So you never get to the point of, I’m in such a dark place that
I need help. There are preventative measures that you can take, and we’re going to talk about what
those are today. Ever wonder what it actually takes to build a reputation that generates revenue?
Rory and AJ Vaden are the powerhouse duo behind Brand Builders Group. NYT bestselling authors,
and the personal brand experts who have helped some of the world’s most influential leaders scale
their personal brands. Now, they’re pulling back the curtain on how to capture attention, build
massive trust, and turn your expertise into a lasting legacy. Get ready to elevate your influence
and your income. This is Wealthy and Well-Known.
All right, y’all. Today, we’re going to be talking about something that many high achievers are
too proud to admit. which is burnout. And I have a little confession for you today,
which is a little bit of some backstory of a season of my life where burnout literally took me out.
And this was a 13-year journey to get to a point of decision of realizing that everything I did
was for money, ego, title, ambition, and I didn’t see the signs.
But today we’re going to talk about how you notice them before they take you out. But when I didn’t
see the signs, all of this led to a season of literally utter despair in the sense of,
I don’t know what to do. I’m not happy. I wasn’t seeing friends. I wasn’t seeing family. I would
say it was the lowest season of my marriage with Rory. This was in 2021. This was a season of I
just did not have an ounce of energy left. There was nothing I could do that would bring me joy.
And yet every single day it was to wake up and do the entire thing over again and again and again.
I had very little friendships going on. I had very little personal life. Everything was circulating
around this idea of how do we figure this out? How do we make this work? How do we grow this? And
it literally took me to the bottom of the barrel of, I think I actually need to seek professional
help. And there were many micro signs along the way that I could have seen,
that I could have noticed, that I could have gotten ahead of. And today’s episode is to talk about
those things so that you never get to the point of Oh, I need to seek professional help.
I’m in such a dark place that I need help. There’s things that you can do before that,
preventative measures that you can take. And we’re going to talk about what those are today. Yes.
And I will say that probably the biggest thing I’ve noticed on this topic of burnout that I hope
that we can talk about today is that everybody thinks burnout is a volume issue.
And I’m going to make the case that burnout is not always a volume issue as much as it is an
alignment issue. It’s not always about how much you’re doing. It’s about the reasons why you’re
doing as much as you’re doing. And that if we can get the alignment right, you actually can have
high capacity to perform and you can perform at a high level. but it doesn’t without it taking over
every ounce and every second of your entire life. And so I think there’s a lot of misconceptions
around burnout and I’ve run pretty hard for a pretty long time.
And I’ve never really bumped up close personally to burnout. I witnessed it in that time of 2021.
That was the hardest point in our marriage for sure. There was a lot going on as there’s probably a
lot going on in your life, right? We had young kids, we had COVID, we were in the middle of a
startup. You know, you had a lot of health situations and it’s hard.
It’s hard. So I hope we can just have an honest conversation. We’ve been there close together.
We’ve also had a lot of endurance. We’ve had some success through this. We’ve had some hard
seasons. So let’s get into it. Yeah. So I’m going to pull a Rory today and I’m going to answer my
own question. I thought we were disallowing answering our own questions. I was disallowing you to
do it is what it was. But the very first question, I’m going to read it. And then I’m going to
answer it and then you can answer it. But here’s the question is, what are the first signs of
burnout? What did you ignore and what did you, what did it cost you before you admitted that it was
happening? And so I think the, I want to start with what were the first signs. And I think for so
many of us, these are the things that we ignore. And I ignored all the physical signs.
Like my body was telling me you’re burnt out woman way before my mind was willing to admit,
I think, I think I’m on the verge of like a full on meltdown. And those started with a sleepless
nights. It really, it started with like every night I would wake up with a mental to-do list.
At what time? All through the night. I would wake up repeatedly. of uh oh my gosh did that happen
did that get done or i need to write this down or like there was even some nights uh well i guess
mornings you could say it’s like i’m like i have to start at 4 a.m because the kids are going to
be up and uh we are still in a season of really young babies and it’s like i have to be able to do
this and this and it was like but it was like there was so much anxiety that my body could not rest
I still have a challenge with rest and how even today I know that I’m on the verge of overwhelm or
burnout is when my body won’t rest. Like I can’t nap. I can’t sleep. I have problems sleeping.
Like those are physical signs where my body is like something’s not right. You’re not settled.
You’re anxious about something. And I just ignored them. I was like,
oh, it’s like, you know, we have young kids. It’s busy. But this was years. If you remember a
couple of years, it was like I could not sleep through the night. That was the first signal. The
second signal was literally like physical manifestations of pain,
of illness, of sickness. Like those were things that really started to become a really present
issue. There was so many little things. But finally, if you remember, I was diagnosed.
With gallstones. Yeah, it really culminated in gallbladder. It culminated in a very, very severe
gallbladder attack. And then in life or death emergency surgery. But it was, you know, it took me
18 months of visiting different doctors, trying to do different things until a Eastern medicine
practitioner looked at my tongue and checked my pulse rate and said, you have gallstones.
And I was like, come again? And this is a crazy story because you like walked in. And you
described, you spent a few minutes describing this and he’s like, open your mouth. He’s like, stick
out your tongue. And I was like, okay. I sticked out my tongue and he held my wrist and he goes,
you have gallstones. And I was like,
what? What are you talking about? And you spent years talking to doctors trying to figure out
what’s going on. Almost two full years. And then, but this was, that part was fascinating in and of
itself. And then he sat down and he said, do you have a problem with frustration?
And when he said the word frustration, I said, how did you know that? Like I bet in that season of
my life, I probably internally or externally verbally said the words, I’m just so frustrated 10
times a day. Like at least if you remember, I mean, at every turn,
I was just like, I’m just so freaking frustrated. This is so frustrating. Like I literally said
those words. And when he said that, I was like, how do you know that? And he goes. Your gallbladder
is the organ of your body that holds frustration. That was so crazy because he was able to say each
organ in your body is connected to a specific type of emotion. And he said, you have gallstones
because you’re not able to process frustration. And until you do, you will not heal.
Tell him what the prescription was he gave you, the most immediate prescription, because that was
also crazy. And that’s what I’m saying. This was a physical manifestation of overwhelm and burnout.
And he said, what I need you to do is go home and hit something every day. Husband,
duck! And I was like, what? It was not a drastic diet change.
And he was not being facetious. No, he was being dead serious. He was like, I need you to get a
bat. I need you to get a tennis racket, a punching bag,
punching bag. He was like, but I, he goes, working out is not what I’m asking you to do. He goes,
I need you to have a physical release of tension by hitting something.
You have to make physical contact. And here’s what all of you need to learn. I give your body keeps
the score, right? I read this book. It’s a hard book to read. It’s a heavy, heavy book,
but I do believe in the premise, like your body keeps the score. And if you just pay attention to
your body, inflammation, swelling, unwanted weight gain,
water retention, sleepless nights, headaches, tension in your face,
muscle aches that won’t go away. Like these things are your body trying to give you signals that
something isn’t right. And what it’s telling you is like, there’s a root issue here. This isn’t,
Hey, pop a pill or, you know, take a shot. That’s not what it’s saying. Your body is going like,
there is something being developed in you that you need to recognize. There is a root issue here.
And for me in that season, it was like, it was an unbelievably. tense season of so much work so
much overwhelm over committed is not an hour to myself no breaks no mental breaks wasn’t even just
physical breaks it was no mental breaks and so i would just encourage all of you it was it was a
stressful heavy season for the world but i would tell i would encourage all of you like your body
is telling you right now if you are approaching burnout your body is telling you something is not
right It’s just, are you paying attention to it? Are you going, oh, that’s, you know,
it’s just this or, oh, it’s just aging or it’s just whatever. And it’s like, it’s not just
anything. If you can’t sleep, something is not right, right? If you’re gaining weight unexpectedly,
something is not right. If you can’t focus, if you have fatigue,
if you’re, you know, have mental cloudiness, if you’re forgetting things, those aren’t nothing.
Your body is sending you cues. And it was amazing for me to have these encounters in that season
that eventually led to healing. And now it’s like, I know when those things start to pop up,
it’s like, oh, something’s going on in my work life and my work life balance, like something’s
going on. So physical cues are the first indicators. And we, one of the things we learned about you
in that whole experience was. your physical energy exertion. He was talking about impact, but in
general, we learned you are a high energy burner. You have to have physical energy exertion,
physical release. And I, we might catch some hate for what I’m about to say. And because I don’t
mean to oversimplify how to deal with burnout, but I’m just going to share my honest experience
here in the seasons of my life where I have approached burnout or stress.
There have always, always been one of two things out of alignment.
I either was not spiritually centered. So I was not going to church.
I was not reading the Bible. I was not engaging in practice. And if you’re not a Christian or
whatever, like it could be meditation or whatever, but like I was not spiritually centered and,
or I was not exercising properly and consistently. And I don’t mean to say that those two things
are the ultimate cure for every source of burnout, but I can say without a doubt,
100% of the seasons in my life where I’ve approached burnout, one and usually both of those things
had somehow, some way, for some reason, fallen to the wayside.
And my encouragement to you would simply be if you’re feeling exhausted,
if you’re feeling burnt out, if you’re feeling overwhelmed, I would simply ask you to go, are you
spending time with the Lord or whatever your version of spiritual sentiment looks like? And are you
exercising before you do anything else? Before you take a pill, read a book,
talk to a doctor. I’m just going those two things. Do those.
Do yourself a favor. Get those two things right and see if a whole bunch of stuff doesn’t change.
And in your case, the hitting was a very unique thing, but it also was just, we’ve learned even
now, like you need hot yoga, you need walks. But for me, I think, and this is, again, every
individual, it’s like, you got to pay attention to your body. But I think one of the things that’s
really important about this for business owners, entrepreneurs, solopreneurs, it’s like,
you have to slow down enough to listen to your body. Like some of us are just moving at such a fast
pace. It’s like there’s not a there’s not a break to even notice what’s going on, much less stop
and think about it and do something about it. So it’s like you have to slow down enough to go like,
what’s going on here? What are the trends that I’m seeing? Then you can assess.
But I think one of the things that you were going to say, Rory, is like for all of us, it’s it
comes in different like exercise to some might be a brisk walk. Like what we found out for myself,
it has to be like an intense. energy release so like a brisk walk won’t do it for me it has to be
something where it’s like i’m almost to the point of exhaustion she has a weighted vest she’s got
her little pink bangles on and she is cruising like i cannot keep up with her she is hustling but
it’s like i gotta get her a parachute i gotta give you one of those like little parachute things
those weighted things that you put on um but i think it’s like that’s really important it’s like
you have to know like what actually resets you And that, that took me a long time to figure it out.
Like I used to do hot yoga in my early twenties. And then over the last 15 years, I just stopped
going. I was doing bar three, doing Pilates. I was doing all these other things and it wasn’t doing
what my body needed. And the moment that I have gotten back into intense hot yoga,
it has been amazing. Like I told Rory this just the other day. It’s like. I literally go in one way
and I leave feeling a different. There is a physical difference in my body, but there’s a mental
clearing that happens in a 60 minute period that happens with no other workout. And I’m not being
an advocate for yoga here. I’m just going, find the thing that does that for you. But I do think
like the natural release of endorphins is a huge component of you getting those boosts that are
needed. to combat some of this. Yeah. And, and I’m, in some ways I’m the opposite because sleep is
what recharges me so much, right? I’m just like the koala bear. I’m just like, if I can just get a
30 minute power nap, I literally. wake up feeling that same way. I feel like a different, a
different person, but what does burnout look like specifically for a personal brand? I think that,
I mean, it, this, I think it doesn’t matter if it’s in your personal brand, business, personal
life, whatever. It’s like, I just think in general, the thing that shows up often is like,
there is an element of just exhaustion. Like it’s, it’s like,
it, maybe that’s not even the right word, but there is a, a dimness. to the conversation versus
something that has just a natural energy to it there is a lack thereof and I think that you can
sense like hey this is being forced or this is I’m doing it out of following through on my schedule
and commitment and i have some of those days like right now it’s like there are some days where i
have film i have to film a content content shoot and i’m like this is the last thing that i want to
be doing today with everything else on my plate and i’m forcing my way through it versus other days
where i’m like i’m in the right mental headspace i’m in the right and this is all i want to do and
i think those are the things that show up it’s it’s a forced thing Of, hey, I’m doing this out of
obligation versus out of genuine passion and mission. Yeah.
A word I would use is dread. Yeah. Is like, you know, you’re starting to burn out like
professionally when there is a sense of dread of like you get the Sunday night blues and you’re
like, oh, I’m not looking forward to today. There’s a difference between. I have to versus I want
to. Of like, oh, I really just do not want to do this. that’s very different from like oh my gosh I
worked so hard and I’m so tired but it was like man I was I was cranking today I was jamming I’m
exhausted but like the same way I’m exhausted coming out of the gym versus a dread of like I’m
having to muster up just being here and so I think that that is a sign that I would I would tell
people to to be looking for and I think that’s an indicator professionally that you’re not
operating in your uniqueness I think that is a sign that you are probably trying to emulate other
people. Maybe you might be copying content. You’re doing what you think you’re supposed to versus
what, I would say, what God created you to do or what your uniqueness is. It’s like you’re so busy
comparing and trying to shape your personal brand and your business by what other people are doing
or saying. And you’re operating kind of from the outside in versus operating from the inside out
and saying, why am I here? Who do I care to serve about? What are the things I want to research?
What are the things that I want to study? Where is my natural sort of curiosity or fascination
leaning me towards? And that’s like,
yeah, you’re off course because you’re like, you’re trying to make money in this way because you
think it’s a way to make money or you’re trying to do your content this way because you think
that’s how your content has to be done. You’re not just. listening again, not so much to your body,
but you’re not listening to your own intuition about what your mission is and what your message is
and who you’re supposed to serve. So I think that’s also a sign of a misalignment of your
uniqueness being expressed as a personal brand. I have a question for you. What do you think is a
lie that people tell themselves when they’re in burnout? Like when they’re in this mode of dread,
as you said, like, what do you think is a lie that people tell themselves when they’re in this
mode? Yeah. Here’s the ironic lie about burnout is they tell themselves,
if I just work more, I can work myself out of this. That’s where I really draw the line and go,
this isn’t a matter of doing more. It’s not a matter of the volume of work you’re doing. It’s a
matter of alignment. I think burnout is more the result of misalignment.
There are people who can work crazy amounts. I go back to what Navy SEAL Joe told us that day that
you bought me with our friend Joe, who’s a Navy SEAL. He said, The body can take damn near
anything. It’s the mind that needs conditioning. If there’s a misalignment of your mind,
everything breaks down. If you’re in alignment, you can do so much.
You have the source power of the creator working through you.
You can do so much. But if you’re off the track, it’s like you’re operating in your own willpower
and you’re just… You’re just, you’re just depleted and exhausted. And I think back to an earlier
season in our life and our business and with our first company where you,
you experienced a different kind of burnout. You weren’t physically burnt out.
You were working like crazy. You’re working 80 hours a week. You’re crushing it. You’re winning all
the goals, like winning all the contests and stuff, but you were emotionally depleted.
And it was more of a, again, it was a misalignment of like, it wasn’t about what you were doing.
It wasn’t about how much you were doing. It was about the underlying motivation of why you were
doing what you were doing. You were doing what you were doing to prove something to someone or some
sets of people. And that’s exhausting. Even though you were really good at the work and clients
were loving it and you were crushing it and you were making money and doing things. But I just know
like kind of in the background in that season, you felt like you were losing yourself,
I guess is how I would describe that you’ve described it. The general conversation is so much of
burnout. A way to prevent it is to make sure that you’re working in alignment with Where you feel
like you’re supposed to be. Because even if you do less, it’s like if you’re doing something you
hate, but you do less of it, you’re still going to be burned out. Like that’s not the answer. Yeah.
And that’s what I think people don’t understand. They’re like, oh, I’m working too much. It’s like
not necessarily like there’s some healthy boundaries to like the quantity of work you do.
But usually when when you’re on track with the calling of your life.
the natural divine design, the natural skills. It’s one of my all time favorite quotes,
um, from the guy’s name that I can’t say correctly, but it’s Panta Panta Jolly or Panta Jolly,
where he says, uh, when you’re inspired by some great extraordinary purpose, dormant forces and
faculties come alive and you find yourself to be a far greater person than you ever imagined
yourself to be. And I’ve found that to be true in my own life. I’ve witnessed that in your life.
I’ve seen that in so many of our clients. It’s like, when you’re on purpose, when you’re on track,
you come alive with creativity and energy like this boundless energy.
Yeah. I think a lot of this, it’s like, are you working from a place of true enjoyment?
Are you working from a place of forced will? Yeah. And I think there’s a lot of burnout comes from,
Hey, you’ve been working from a place of forced will for so long that at some point you’re like,
I’m out of runway here. There’s no more forced will ammunition coming.
It’s like it’s all burned up versus working from a place of genuine skill, enjoyment,
talent. We read a book a couple of years ago as a company called The Working Genius by Patrick
Lencioni. And one of the things that I love about that book, he said, no matter what you’re doing,
if you’re doing something that is not your natural genius, eventually. you’ll burn out totally
doesn’t matter what it is and how good you are if it’s not natural to you at some point that forced
effort will burn you out mentally, emotionally, physically, depending on what the job is.
And that really is back into an alignment with what are you naturally gifted to do? Where are your
natural interests? Where are your natural talents? Where are your natural passions? Where do you
have natural inclinations to succeed and do that? Whatever it is.
And he said, what I love, he goes, people always talk about, hey, I need a vacation or I need a
break or I need a day off. And he’s always like, no. you need to get in alignment with what you’re
good at at work. Because when you’re in alignment with what you’re good at at work, you don’t need
that. Not saying we shouldn’t take breaks, vacations and whatever. But he said, people need a break
because they’re tired because they’ve been forcing it versus am I working from a place of natural
genius? So I have a personal question for you and a professional question about you handle this. I
sometimes look at my life and I feel like I’ve had an unfair advantage and that unfair advantage is
you as my partner. I would agree with you. Yes. I mean, you and there’s this term in the Bible,
Ezra Konegdo, which is in Genesis. And often the English translation says,
I will make for you a suitable helper. But the actual translation is what?
It’s closer to soul saver. Soul saver.
I feel like you are my soul saver. And so I feel like that is an unfair advantage to me and to men
in general. I think moms carry more on the personal side.
I’m not talking about assigning gender roles. I help with the dishes. I clean around the house,
but you do more of the cooking. You coordinate more with house stuff. And the general default,
whether we like it or not, is just the kids come to you. How do you balance burnout on the personal
front? Because you’re fighting two wars. And it’s not that I don’t think I’m completely absent from
one, but I do think it’s different.
I don’t know if I have a great answer to that because it is a struggle. I think where if I was
being honest, it’s like I have the amazing benefit of help. Right. And I know a lot of families
don’t have that. Yeah. And that’s a very unfair advantage. I sit at our home often and wonder,
like, how do full time families who have two working parents do this?
So this is so hard. There’s so much. There’s so much. And so I have a lot of sympathy and empathy
of going like, if I can barely keep up and I have help. How are families doing this with two full
-time working parents? This is so much. And then I have some friends who have six,
seven, eight kids. I just stand in awe of like, like what?
Like, and here’s, here was my answer. You just figure it out.
And it’s like, is some, sometimes you get help. Sometimes you don’t have help. You have two kids or
you have eight kids. You have zero kids. It’s hard no matter what. Right. And it’s that whole idea
of like, it’s hard to be single. It’s hard to be married. It’s choose your heart. And then you
choose to figure out how to make it work. And so I think in general, not saying this universally,
I do think that women have higher capacities to handle more because I actually genuinely think we
were built that way. And I say to handle more. It’s like I think it’s like. And clearly we were
biologically made to be able to carry humans and to raise them and to like nurture for them.
But I don’t think that’s just for our children. I think it’s for all humans. I think it’s for our
husbands. I think it’s for our communities. I’m not saying men can’t, so don’t hear what I’m not
saying, listeners. But I do think there are some unique things that are biologically different.
And I think some of that is the more that you’re created to care for humans,
you have to have more capacity because they require more. OK,
so that leans into my next question, which is about at work. OK, how do you when you manage a team,
how do you have compassion and empathy for everything you just said, what they’re dealing with at
home and keeping all of that? But also holding high standards and a high accountability to the
success of the company. But like knowing that, you know, your employees, our employees are also
battling burnout and we going, hey, we know that it’s important to not work constantly.
So how do you as a leader create a culture where there’s a healthy blend of you need to have a life
outside of work and that’s important? And we also have very high expectations and very high
standards of performance. How do you reconcile that? I mean, I genuinely think it’s everything that
we’ve been having in this conversation of hiring the right person with the right skills for the
right seat. It’s alignment. It really is. It’s alignment.
It doesn’t matter what role you sit in. It’s like if you’re out of alignment, it’s like if your
employees are doing X, Y, and Z tasks that they don’t really love doing, they’re going to take
longer. The output’s not going to be as good and they’re not going to enjoy it as much versus
someone who is in a seat where it’s like, this is made for this.
This is my jam. I can do this and not get paid. It’s different. It gets done better.
It gets done faster. It gets done with more enjoyment. It’s about alignment. And so I think the
accountability comes to the leader of going, did you hire the right person with the right skills
for the right job? That’s really what it comes down to. It’s like we’ve had this conversation the
last few episodes. It’s like the problem starts with the leader. It starts with the owner. You are
the problem. So it’s alignment in a different way. But it’s the same conversation no matter if it’s
for you or it’s for your team. All right. So it is time for our community question. This question
comes from Christine in our community. She says, I have been a part of your program for several
years. Uh, it looks like she loves working with us. She says, I’m 99% sure I’ll be a BBG or for a
long time. Um, but she says that she is in the middle land. She’s struggling where in the middle
land, the middle land where she sees the value of more systems and more kind of technology and
infrastructure in her business, but she doesn’t yet have the budget to just go hire all the people
to do it for her. And so she’s struggling with How much of her time should she lean into trying to
like figure that out versus doing more of the things that are in her own strength and,
you know, like her current strengths versus, okay, should I just hire someone to do it?
And so I think I’m adapting her question a little bit to what I think is sort of relevant for
everybody. But she’s describing a scene where she’s like not yet there where she can just write a
check and like pay someone to solve this problem for her, even though she sees the value. Um,
and so she’s just kind of like in that, you know, no man’s or no woman’s land of,
you know, that, that in, in between. Yeah. So I think I’m going to give a generally broad answer to
this. And it’s like, I think for all of us, no matter what your seat is, um, no matter what your
role is, I think everyone needs to understand that there is a cost to inexperience.
Sometimes that’s with your team. Often it’s with you and there is a cost to inexperience.
There is a cost to you saying, I’ll do it. it because I can’t afford someone else to do it when
you’ve never done it. Like it will take longer. It will not be as good. It will take you 10 times
the amount of time and you will end up spending 10 times the amount of money from hiring a
professional who could have done it right the first time more efficiently and more effectively. And
I think that is a lie that we tell ourselves is I can’t afford it, but yet you’re paying yourself.
And if you are sitting in a seat that you’re not supposed to be in, then you’re not doing the thing
that only you can do, which would be providing the money and the resources to go hire the thing.
So to answer that question a little bit more directly, what I would say is, what’s the one thing
that you dread? What’s the one thing that you’re like, ugh. Not this again.
And that is the first thing you should outsource and go, if I reallocated the time, money, energy,
and resources that I’m currently giving to this little thing that sucks the life out of me,
that makes me not enjoy my job, that makes me question if I should be doing this, what is that?
And if you reallocated all of your time and energy into something that you’re naturally gifted at,
could you justify the trade-off of like, okay, I’m going to take a leap of faith.
And I’m going to go hire someone to do this thing so I can double down here. Here’s the second
thing I would say that I hear entrepreneurs say all the time is like, well, I can’t afford it. I’m
like, you can’t afford not to try. That doesn’t mean you have to stay. It’s like you can go try it.
And in 30 days, if it’s not working, you can’t pay for it. Discontinue. That’s why I think it’s
great to start with vendors. It’s great to start with outsourced fractional firms. You don’t start
with a full-time employee where you’re now taking on their livelihood. That’s a dangerous decision
for you and for them because it puts unnecessary pressure on two places that doesn’t make sense. Do
you need someone for five hours? Well, you can hire a firm for that. You can hire a vendor. You
hire a company for that, an agency, whatever, and reinvest your time and energy into things that
only you can do and tell me you can’t pay for it 30 days later. Yeah, amen.
self-promotion here, but I would point you towards the delegate chapter of my second book,
Procrastinate on Purpose, Five Permissions to Multiply Your Time. That is a must-read chapter on
this issue. And one of the insights is exactly what you’re just saying. You already are affording
it. You’re either paying someone else at their pay rate or you’re paying yourself at yours. And
what I would say is every entrepreneur believes that they they don’t have enough money yet to hire
the person and they’re waiting to have the money to hire the person. And so they never feel like
they have it. And so they never hire the person. And so they stay stuck. The act of faith is the
act of trust, both in a higher power and in people and in yourself and your own ability to generate
income is to go, no, I believe that if I hire the person first, That will create more time for me
and with more time and more energy, I will then be able to create the money.
And there’s not ever really been a point in our life where we have had the money available to hire
the person. It’s always been more of an act of faith of we’re going to hire the person and trust
that that’s going to create the margin of opportunity and time and resources for us to go make the
money. And that is the trade-off. And that struggle is the struggle.
It’s the struggle of every entrepreneur. And at some point, you just got to take that act of faith.
And I think what you’re pointing out here is a great part of giving yourself that permission is to
go, you don’t have to commit to it forever. Try it and see if it doesn’t work that way.
And even if it doesn’t work, a lot of times you go, oh, well, that setup didn’t work, but I
actually… hire someone else. I can see how I could make it work, even though that was wrong. So
you learn by doing it, but you don’t learn by waiting until you can afford it.
It’s a hard, it’s a really hard, it’s a leap of faith. That’s why they say that term. Yeah.
And I would just encourage you to, I hear so many people say, well, I’ve just made so many wrong
hires in that seat. I’m not going to do it again. And it’s like. Well, that doesn’t mean you don’t
do it again. It just means you get better at it, right? So you make the decisions faster. You get
better at hiring. You get better at training. You find the right person in the right seat. Just
because it didn’t work one time doesn’t mean it won’t work next time. So I would just encourage
that too. But there is a cost of an experience and most likely it’s you. So it’s a costly
experiment to be doing something that you’ve never done before when you can go hire it.
out to someone who knows what they’re doing. So if this episode has been helpful to you,
I would just encourage you, if you know someone that is on the verge of burnout or who is even
saying like, I feel burned out, do them a favor and share this episode with them.
We know that the body will tell you when you’re coming in. So just paying attention to the cues
will help you prevent yourself from burning out. And then sharing this episode could help a friend
of yours from experiencing the same thing. So share this episode with a friend. Do us a favor.
Subscribe. Stay tuned to the podcast. And also, as you’re learning about entrepreneurship, if you
would love how to get more support like this, we would really encourage you to request a call with
our team.
request a call with our team to figure out how can you be building your personal brand and your
business in a way that’s aligned to you, right? That’s what we’re after here. How do you do it in a
way that’s aligned to you? And you can request a call with our team to do that. We’ll catch you
next time on the wealthy and well-known podcast.

WWK Ep 033: Why Having Fun Is a Business Strategy

The biggest threat to any small business is that the founder just simply doesn’t want to do it
anymore. The lie we’re telling ourselves that it has to be us and it has to be right now. And
neither of those are true. 90% of all small businesses in America won’t make it past their 10 year
mark. You have to ask yourself why. In this episode, we’re going to talk about the balance of hard
work, but also fun. and rest we explore how entrepreneurs and business owners can move beyond
hustle culture to build lives and companies they don’t need a vacation from focusing on longevity
joy and balance instead of non-stop grind contentment it’s a skill but it’s a choice what is your
level of enoughness protect your most important asset you and make fun a core part of how you work
lead and live every day Ever wonder what it actually takes to build a reputation that generates
revenue? Rory and AJ Vaden are the powerhouse duo behind Brand Builders Group,
NYT bestselling authors, and the personal brand experts who have helped some of the world’s most
influential leaders scale their personal brands. Now, they’re pulling back the curtain on how to
capture attention, build massive trust, and turn your expertise into a lasting legacy. Get ready to
elevate your influence and your income. This is Wealthy and Well-known.
Have you made hustle an idol? Have you made nonstop work your only strategy?
We have a deep… belief that the people who win in the next decade are not just the people who
work the hardest. It’s really about who lasts the longest. In this episode,
we’re going to talk about the balance of hard work, but also fun and rest.
I love this conversation. I think AJ and I have different views. If it weren’t for AJ, I would
probably work all the time and just be a boring, boring, boring person, but she has shown me how to
have more fun. And we have a lot of fun, particularly as a family. So we’re going to talk about and
help you wrestle down this issue to find the balance of work and life in a way that’s going to make
you succeed. Well, I think it’s really important because when you think about 90% of all small
business in America will fail or simply not make it past their 10-year mark.
I mean, you have to ask yourself why. And I believe there’s two fundamental reasons and research.
corroborates this is number one is that people simply don’t want to do it anymore. And the second
is they run out of cash. But here’s, I think, a really interesting part of why fun as a business
strategy really does produce longevity in the business because you still enjoy it.
Like how many of us as entrepreneurs or solopreneurs or just in business in general have going
like, why am I even doing this? and what you started wow because it was exciting and invigorating
and there was passion and belief and it was fun all of a sudden isn’t really fun anymore and it’s
because the business has all become about spreadsheets and emails and making it to the next meeting
and you look up and you’re like I’m freaking exhausted I don’t have time for friends or family or
life or faith or myself and you look in the mirror and you’re like I don’t even know who this
person is And I think that is why fun as a business strategy is such an important topic,
not just for business success, but it’s also for personal success and it’s for business longevity.
I think Mike Michalowicz is the one who I heard this say, who I heard him say this first is that
the biggest threat to any small business is that the founder just simply doesn’t want to do it
anymore. The burnout. Because it’s not fun anymore. So this episode is really about how do you keep
fun as a business strategy to keep you in the game, engaged, and also making sure that you have a
healthy, happy workplace. Because if you’re not having fun, guess who else isn’t having fun?
If mama ain’t happy, ain’t nobody happy. Like nobody’s having fun if you’re not having fun.
Your customers aren’t having fun. Your team isn’t having fun. So this is a little bit of how do we,
incorporate a little fun back into your business and i want to i want to start on the top about
what business you choose like just starting there because we’ve had so many people come to us to be
like hey you guys could make money doing real estate you guys could make money doing investing you
guys could own a piece of this other business you could have all these things and i think one of
the things that we do a pretty good job of is like money is not our ultimate scoreboard and we go
well yeah but Even if we could make a lot of money, that just sounds exhausting.
That doesn’t sound fun to us. It might be fun for somebody, but it’s not to us.
And I think people need that permission right away up front to go, you can make money.
You can make enough money being good at just about anything as long as you’re really, really,
really good at that thing. And I do think a lot of people get into a business to go like,
I’m going to start this business because I think I can make a lot of money at it. And then they’re
surprised when five years later, they’re like, I’m freaking burnout and exhausted. And it’s like, I
don’t care how many ping pong tables you have in your break room. Like if you’re doing that, but
you hate the business you’re doing, like there’s no cure. There’s no, there’s no bandaid you can
put on something where it’s like, I actually just hate the business that I’m in. And I go make.
choose something else, make less money. Even if it means make less money,
but you’ll be so much happier just doing the thing you want to do. And I just think sometimes
people just need that permission. And so that’s why it’s like money is just not our ultimate
scoreboard. It’s an item we are mindful of, but it’s not our number one. I think the other thing is
too, is when I think about a lot of people, grownups, adults, right? this whole idea of adulting
grownups, grownups. I think that there’s a lot of it where it’s like, I do think there’s a
sentiment of like, you can’t have fun and be a serious business. And I just don’t think that’s
true. And if it is, it’s like, well, that doesn’t sound like something I want to do. Like I’m just
being real. It’s like, like where did joy and happiness and fun get cut out of the equation in
order to be. you know, serious or taken serious or successful. And I think that that is a shift
that I think is happening generationally of, and maybe it’s something that maybe even some
industries get a bad rap for. But it’s like, man, like, let’s have a little joy.
It’s like, I just, I think one of the things that I hear a lot of people talk about my dad, I just
turned 75 this year. And he still goes to work every day, his version of work, according to my
brothers who are in the family business. But nonetheless, it’s like he doesn’t believe in
retirement. And my grandfather, who was also an entrepreneur, worked until he was in his early 80s.
And this whole concept of retirement, I think it’s like I’m kind of obsessed with. I talk about it
all the time. It was an American invention. Like this is not something that used to exist prior to
the 1960s. This is also not a practice that is all over the world. It’s a primarily American
function that was created in the late 1950s. Tell them what the word retirement means.
But yeah, but to retire means to be taken out of service. Like, well,
what’s that? But then this whole idea of I’m going to work, work, work, work, work, work, work, and
one day retire. Like what?
friends are busy and you’re old and you’re not physically capable anymore. Like that’s the dumbest
thing I’ve ever heard of. Right. You’re going to sit around and watch wheel of fortune all day.
Like, yeah, you’re going to, what are you going to do? best years working nonstop, having no fun so
that one day you can have fun when you no longer feel like doing it anymore. It’s crazy. So I’m
real convicted that fun has got to be a core part of your business strategy. And I don’t mean fun
in the sense of, yeah, playing ping pong or cornhole or whatever that is, but it’s how do you have
lightness? How do you have levity? How do you have rest? How do you have components of enjoyment in
everything you do? Yeah. And I’m going to do the thing again where I ask a question and then answer
my own question. This is going to have to be disallowed moving forward. You’re not going to be
answering your own questions. Well, you gave yourself the good questions and I’m afraid that you
won’t ask me it.
All right. Answer your own question. Okay. So here’s the question. Where did I learn that rest and
fun were a necessary part of being successful and what planted that belief?
So I want to talk about a book that you read. that changed my life and the book was called every
good endeavor and it was by timothy keller and y’all if you don’t know this aj reads like crazy
like i don’t know if he reads like a book every couple weeks and one of the things in that book
that timothy keller reminded people of and reminded me of was that work existed in the garden of
eden before original sin which means that work was part of God’s original plan.
Work was never meant to be a price that we paid for sin. Work was not a part of a broken world.
Work was a part of the perfect world. It was a part of God’s divine design.
It was the original creation that work is a part of what gives us purpose and joy.
And that book and that idea really transformed the way that I think about work.
If I’m having to grind through work, I’m not doing it right. It doesn’t mean I don’t work hard.
It means that it shouldn’t be that hard to do work. I should enjoy the work.
I should enjoy the challenge because that’s part of God’s design. And if I’m living into what we
would call uniqueness, then I should be exercising skills and functions and capacities that God
gave to me. And that is the kind of fun that I think of. It’s not going like,
oh, if I spend more time on the beach, I’ll be better at work. That may be true,
but that’s not the big idea for me. The big idea for me is to go enjoy the thing you’re doing and
figure out a way to make that enjoyable. So anyways. Yeah, I think that’s good. I’ll add two quick
things to that that I think are worthwhile is that God did. create work in the perfect world.
And so did he create rest as a law, as a commandment,
as a necessity, because I think, not I think, I know he knew that we as humans would have the
tendency to want to outperform, outachieve, and that our worth would be tied to productivity,
which is why he said, no, you have to take the Sabbath. And that is where you have to rely on me.
That is where you cannot be completely independent. This is not of yourself. Everything that you
have has been given and provided in some way. And just as we were created to work, we were also
created to rest and have peace and enjoyment. That is the purpose of the Sabbath.
But I think for a lot of us, to the other thing I was going to comment on, this whole idea of
hustle culture and grind, I think a lot of that stemmed from this idea of comparison.
It’s like we grind and we hustle and we work more hours and more days and we never take breaks and
we don’t take vacations and this idea of getting ahead, of getting more,
of getting ahead of the next person. Beating other people. But all of it stems from it’s like,
well, I got to get what they have. So I got to work more hours. I got to do this. I got to do this.
I got to do this. And it’s like, would we ever have done that if we weren’t looking around at
everyone else was doing? I don’t know. And I think that overwhelm comes from taking more on your on
your plate than you can actually get done. Right. It’s an over committed. Why do we say yes to
things that we shouldn’t be saying yes to? It’s, you know, you feel guilty or you’re trying to keep
up or you’re a people pleaser or, you know, there’s this thing of like, well, everyone else is
doing good. I guess I got to do it, too. And I think there’s some of that built in here that we got
to unwire from our thinking. And I think that’s why pausing and going like, hey, it’s not always
about doing more. Sometimes it’s just about being better at what you already have, being better at
what you’re doing. But also there’s a skill of contentment. And I think that’s a discipline and
it’s a skill, but it’s a choice. To enjoy what you’re doing is a choice. And,
you know, one of the policies that we have at the Vaden household for our youngest to our oldest is
that we are going to be excellent at whatever it is we do. I don’t care if it’s loading the
dishwasher. I don’t care if it’s organizing the pantry. She does care if it’s loading the
dishwasher. For the record, it matters that we load the dishwasher with excellence at the Vaden
household. I’m just, if you come over, I’m just warning you now. There is a way to do it. But that
really does stem from the idea of like, if my hands are going to touch it, it’s going to be done
well. Yeah. And it doesn’t matter what it is. Taking out the trash. I’m above nothing. And that was
very much a learned attribute in my household growing up. And in my grandparents’ household, it’s
like if you’re going to touch it, you’re going to touch it with excellence. I think it’s like we
don’t appreciate the job we have or we think we should be doing something else. And it’s like, nah,
just be excellent at the job you have. Enjoy the job you have. And those are choices, right?
So I think a lot of that is, yes, do something that you’re well-positioned to do, but also be good
at whatever it is you’re doing. Yeah. And I want to, I want to double tap on, you brought up the
word contentment and you said contentment is a skill. I could not agree with you more. One thing
that changed my life was a question that my, one of my best friends, Jason Dorsey asked me,
he said, what is your level of enoughness? And he was asking the question,
like, how much is enough? Like how much money is enough money? How much impact is enough impact?
How much recognition or reputation is enough? That question really rocked me the first time he
asked. And I think it is a sign of maturity to go to say,
I do have enough and I’m not in need of more,
but I’m always doing something because I do things with excellence and because I enjoy doing it and
I feel called to do it and I feel like I’m using my skills, but not out of comparison, not out of
beating others and not out of trying to… satisfy my own deep feelings of insecurity or
inadequacy. That’s the part that leads to burnout. I think it’s less about the quantity of hours
you work. I think burnout is more related to why are you working those hours and what is the drive
behind the work? If the drive is competition or ambition,
I think you can run into burnout. If the drive is mission, then I think you can work really hard
for a really long time because you get the power of having mission as your motivation is if I
impact one person, I get this deep, satisfying gratification.
And yet at the same time, I am. I have an insatiable desire to impact and help more.
And so mission is really beautiful. But I think it’s more about the motives behind the work than it
is about the volume of the work that you’re doing. And a lot of that comes down to more emotion and
psychology of contentment and enoughness. And God’s just designed for rest to say,
do you trust me enough to rest? Yeah. All right. So I have a question for you. Uh, what do you do
for fun that helps you be a more happier,
productive person at work? We were having this conversation before we hit record.
So it’s like, this one’s hard one for me. I mean, well, define fun for you and then answer the
question. I mean, for me, fun is enjoying my life. Right. To me,
it’s not. What does that mean? It means that like, I’m happy with the life that I have. It doesn’t
mean, oh, when I’m at the beach, that’s fun. But when I’m on my office, that’s not fun to me.
That’s a, that’s a losing life. Yeah. Like I go, it doesn’t matter how much time I have at the
beach. If I hate what I’m doing in my office, like. You just always want to be at the beach. Yeah.
You always want to be at the beach. Like Seth Godin had this great quote where he’s like, build a
life you don’t need a vacation from. Amen. Like. I go, that’s it. To me, that’s fun is to go.
What does that look like every day for you? I mean, here’s, I think what it looks like is, you
know, my source of fun would be the things that we do as a family. Okay. And I think we decide as a
family, we were going to invest into experiences and go, we’re going to go to games.
We’re going to go to concerts. We’re going to go to events. We’re going to show up at birthday
parties. We’re going to try to go to water parks. We’re going to try to do stuff that.
creates memories and we’re going to focus more on creating memories than just having possessions
and largely i think that was your influence which uh you know you do a great job of making our
family fun and i think making brand builders group fun like if I think Brand Builders Group would
suck a lot more to work at if it were just me, for sure, because you do prizes and recognition and
tacos, this tacos thing that we do. It’s fun. It’s fun,
yeah. Separate from our family, the way I would have to answer that question is I don’t think I do
fun. I think I do rest. One of my goals was to get to where I could afford a massage every week.
I do that almost every week. I want to be able to,
on Sundays, I am completely unplugged. Sundays is truly a Sabbath for us.
For you. For me, yeah. Saturday is more when you Sabbath, and that’s only because you’re spending a
lot of Sunday working to prepare to host Bible study on Sundays. But I think…
know, we wake up, we go to church, we have brunch as a family, we come back, we get ready for Bible
study. We have family Bible study from 3.30 to 8. And then we go to bed and,
you know, maybe read the Bible some in between there. That’s like our Sunday. And I think we,
you know, do that even though there’s work in preparing for that. Fun for you is rest. I think fun
for me is rest. I would second that. Our kids call Rory the master napper.
Their whole idea of a fun day is telling dad, you can’t nap today.
Napping is fun for me. I can nap right now. I can go to sleep at any moment.
I think what I do have the ability to do is… off work from my brain and like go rest um and i
think that has been a learned skill which is also i think a demonstration of faith and this is a
difference between our first business and our second business in our first business it was like if
it is to be it’s up to me we’re going to work all the time non-stop i think when we started brand
builders group we made a resolution that we’re going to work hard from, you know, nine to five.
And at five o’clock, we’re going to shut the laptop. We’re going to stop answering the phone and
go, God, I’m turning over my business to you. That’s how I’ve had to process it to go.
There’s a bunch of urgent things that need attention, but it’s five o’clock. God, I’m handing this
back to you. It’s the same thing you do with your money. When you give a tithe, a tenth is to go,
God, I’m, I’m, I’m, I’m turning this money. back over to you because I trust you to do more with
it. And so I think that rest, that enoughness, that separation, that picking a life you don’t need
a vacation from. Those are the things of how I do rest.
You know, other than that, it’s it’s swimming and reading. But I think for everybody, it’s like you
have to first define what is fun for you. Yes. Right. And fun isn’t going to necessarily amusement
parks or concerts or whatever. It’s like you get to define like and I think I think how I would
define fun in this regard of how do you make fun? A business strategy is what brings joy back to
your life. Right. And like when I think about what is fun for me, not as a mom,
not as a business owner, not as a wife, but what is fun for me is I like to be out in nature.
Like that is fun for me. Like I love going on a long walk or a hike. I love yoga.
I love being physically active. That is fun for me. It can be a yard game.
It could be a walk. But it’s like what is fun for me is to be physically active. And so for
everyone who’s listening, I’m just going like, well, I don’t have the money to, you know, go do X,
Y, and Z, or I don’t have that time. It’s like, no, no, you got to redefine fun as what brings joy
back into your life or what gives you mental reprieve. Like we have come to know at my house,
like if I don’t have some sort of physical release, the whole family feels it. And it’s like,
I’m like, I need to go on a walk. I shall be back. And I will come back a different person.
And it’s like, so I’ve just realized like fun for me, what brings me joy is just having physical
activity. It doesn’t matter what it is. I just need to be physically active every single day.
It could be a walk. It could be yoga. AJ is a high energy burner. I am. But it’s like, that also
brings me joy. It’s fun for me. I love that. It’s like, I actually really love working,
but I also love not working. I love both. Like, I think one of the greatest gifts of being a parent
that I never expected was how much joy I get from doing nothing.
It’s like, it’s like, it’s like, it’s just, they make everything fun.
And it’s like, it’s not about productivity. It’s not about, it’s just, we’re just doing it to do
it. And that has been a really important business and life lesson of not everything has to be about
productivity. It’s like sometimes you can just do things to just do them. And that has been like a
really good gift that I think is really important for us all to realize. It’s like I can easily.
Make yoga a competition. It’s like, how good can I get? How many poses can I learn? I can do that
with the books I read. You can do it with anything. How fast can I walk? How many steps can I get
in? Those are all things that we can do. And I think the greatest thing about having something that
just brings you pure joy, that to me is fun, whatever it is. And it’s like, really think about the
things that are fun. something that doesn’t have some sort of productivity measurement tied to it.
It’s just something that gives you a release, a reprieve. something that gets you back in alignment
those are things that are fun that’s what makes it all worth it because there’s hard days you got
to have something that will give you a release on a really hard day and I think those are the
things that when you think about fun as a business strategy that it’s not you’re glued to your desk
right you’re peeing on mute you’re eating on calls like that’s not sustainable For the long haul.
Peeing on mute is kind of fun because it’s a challenge.
From the mouth of Rory Vane. I have an important question. This is a really good one.
So I want to talk about not working for a second. Because in addition to running our business and
running our household and being a mom and spending time with our kids. What is the lie that most
high achievers are telling themselves about why they can’t slow down?
And specifically. Have you been there? How did you get past it? What have you,
how did you resolve that? Yeah. I mean, I come in and out of that every single day of,
you know, I can’t take a break. I can’t have lunch. I can’t do this. I can’t stop at five.
And I think the lie is that I have to do it. It has to be me. That is the lie that we all somehow
believe is like, somehow there’s like this magical power that we possess. That no one else does.
Only I can figure this out. Only I can do it. I can only do it this fast or it has to be this way
or it has to be this good. It has to be X, Y, or Z. The lie we’re telling ourselves that it has to
be us and it has to be right now. And neither of those are true. And so I constantly have to be
checking myself of what, and I think the practice that I have in the morning is what’s my priority
for the day. And as long as I get my priority done for the day, I’m good for the day.
That doesn’t mean there’s not urgent things. I mark them as urgent. I get to them as quickly as I
can. But that’s also learning how to use a team. And it’s also giving yourself permission of like,
I set forth a goal of the day. Have I completed the task of the day? If the answer is yes,
my priority has been completed. Check. I can check out now. But then the other thing is really
learning how to use your team. I think a lot of people hire a team and then they’re frustrated that
my team isn’t producing. And it’s like, well, are you giving them things to produce?
And it’s like, why are you still holding on to all these things? And some of that is,
I believe, one of an entrepreneur’s greatest skill sets is to hire people who know more than they
are, or know more than they do. To hire people who are better than they are at something. To hire
someone who knows more than something they do because… One, I think it’s a really important skill
set for you never to be the smartest person in the room. That is a dangerous place to be always
forever, no matter who you are. Like for me, for example, it was a really scary place for our
business and for me, for me to be the smartest person with our accounting and financial team.
I didn’t go to school for accounting or finance. Yeah. I mean, we should have known we had a
problem when the art major was the CFO.
Technically, I graduated as an advertising major. Okay, well. But it was like,
you know, I need to hire someone who is smarter than me in this. And if I’m the smartest person in
the room when it comes to our money, we’re in trouble. And it’s been so amazingly enlightening and
surprising in the best way possible to hire someone who knows so much more than me.
in this skill set, because what it is, it’s giving me the confidence of, uh, I can give this to
you. I don’t have to do it. You know what? I’m not the smartest person on this. It’s I’m not the
only one. And that it’s, um, that’s almost like, um, an addiction.
It’s like when you realize, Oh shoot, what else am I doing that someone else could do better? So
now I’m constantly looking around of like, wow, am I doing this? you’re so much better at that.
Why haven’t I given it to you? So I think there’s something in there that there’s a lie that we
believe that it has to be me and it has to be right now and neither are true. What would you say to
the entrepreneur who hasn’t had a day off in like a very long time? Like if somebody is listening
right now and they are like, they don’t know how to give themselves permission to take the time.
Like the only thing they know is, I do everything. I grind.
I make this thing work. And they feel like if they stop,
it’s going to fall apart. What do you say to that person?
I think there’s a lot of things I would say. But the truth is,
is you’re never going to realize that it’s not going to fall apart when you stop until you stop.
And then you realize it didn’t fall apart. Um, that’s the truth. And especially if it’s a day or a
week, it’s like, may there be a pile of things to come back to? Sure. But is it all going to
completely fall apart because you stepped away? No. And if you really feel that way, what the real
advice I would give to you is you need to look around at the team you have or the lack of and go,
why do you feel that way? Because there’s a reason you feel that way. It’s rather you haven’t
released control, you haven’t provided the necessary training, or you haven’t hired the right
people in the right seats. And that’s a you problem, right? That’s a business owner problem.
But a lot of that is I think we’re conditioned and some of it,
it just becomes a habit. And it takes a minute. And sometimes it takes abruptness to break a habit
like that. I have been in those seasons. And what I needed that is I needed accountability. I
needed someone else to come alongside me and go, no, we’re doing this. It’s phone-free,
device-free. This is what we’re doing. And so maybe that’s what you need. But I think for the
first, most important part, if you feel that way, there’s a reason. It’s rather you haven’t
released control. You haven’t trained up the team to help. You haven’t hired the team or you
haven’t hired the right team. Here’s something I want to say that is going to make some people mad.
But take this from someone who was a workaholic. I firmly believe now that overwork is a sign of
underfaith. I really believe that. And I don’t mean to offend you, but if it offends you,
I’m okay with it because I think you need to hear it. If you are overworking. It is a demonstration
of a lack of faith. It is a demonstration of going, I don’t trust God to fill in the gap.
I don’t feel like I’m going to be taken care of, which means you’re demonstrating a level of
exertion that probably carries into other areas of your life where you feel like you have to
control everything. And ultimately, you’re not in control. Like you can influence things, but you
can’t control it. The benefit that you get is to is to feel like you’re in control.
But the price you pay is a never ending soul crushing weight and stress.
It is a prison of your own construction and you will never break free from it. Because I would say
to you, I would say, how’s it working? Right. You’ve been working. How long have you been working
all day, every day for? How’s that strategy working? Did you get, is your inbox at zero?
Do you have things finally under control? Do you finally feel caught up or do you feel less caught
up? Do you feel more behind? Do you feel more busy and buried? And I go, because there’s no amount
of work that’s ever going to make you feel caught up. The only thing it’s why we talk about in
wealthy and well-known peace is the new profit. And that peace doesn’t come from spending in.
an infinite number of hours working on your business. At some point, it is a matter of
relinquishing control and saying, I will do my best and God.
I’m trusting you with the rest. And until you get there, you’re just going to keep in the pattern.
And that’s why overwork is a sign of under faith. And I believe that the pressure you’re feeling,
the stress you’re feeling is God trying to get your attention to go, hey, give some to me.
Give this to me. And it’s the same thing with a team, right? So if you don’t believe in God and all
that, it’s like a similar, it’s a, it’s a similar dynamic with your team. One is a spiritual, one’s
a practical. It all comes down to trust and surrender. Trust and surrender. It doesn’t matter which
angle you take, but it’s like, one of the things you have to realize is that the more you work, the
more work you create. And it’s like, until you rest, like, it’s like, there’s always going to be
more to do. Always. At home, at work. And you don’t even have to be in like.
a professional career to experience that. The same thing goes for a stay at home mom or like it
doesn’t matter. It’s like there is always another load of laundry, another load of dishes. There’s
always something to pick up. There is always more to do. It’s never going to go away. It’s your
choice to go. That’s not my focus right now. So I have one last question for you before we go into
the community segment. Then what are the non-negotiable fun moments that are the things that you
protect in your calendar no matter what? Every year we make an annual calendar and we,
I think, have done a pretty good job of this. So first thing that comes to mind, Sunday,
Sabbath, we’ve already talked about that. Second thing that comes to mind is Wednesday date night.
We’re relentlessly protective about one night a week for us. Third thing is we take birthdays off.
Um, and we celebrate, we just celebrated, uh, our youngest son’s birthday. Uh, you know, this week
we were out like, and, and I’ll tell you what, I was more exhausted at the end of that day than at
the end of the work day. Cause man, keeping up with the kids, man, they are nonstop. We were,
we were moving and grooving and playing games and doing stuff all day long. I was exhausted. I was
like, let’s play soccer. Can I please just have a day of meetings? Uh, cause it was, it was, it was
fun though. Um, so I think we, we, we celebrate. A lot. Like we celebrate.
You’ve built a culture in our family of like we celebrate things. And then I think the other thing
is you and I, and a lot of people don’t do this, you and I get away,
just the two of us, at least two weekends a year. We used to get like four a year. Childcare
coverage is the biggest obstacle and challenge. to it but i think ideally we’re getting away three
to four times a year even if it’s for one night or two nights and i am shocked at how many of our
friends will take a trip and they’ll be like is this the first time we’ve had a trip with just the
two of us and no kids in six years nine years 15 years and it’s like How can you stay connected to
your spouse if you never have time with just you and your spouse? Like those are non-negotiables
for me. And I think for us that have made a huge difference.
Yeah. And I would just add to that, regardless if you’re single, married, kids, no kids, empty
nester, it doesn’t matter. But it’s like you have to schedule it in. It’s just like you prioritize
the meetings and the tasks and appointments that you have to do at work. our personal life the same
way. It’s like I will book activities, fun things, whatever it is, six months, nine months,
a year out to go. It’s in the calendar. It’s we’re committed to it. We paid for it so that we can’t
be too tired or too busy to get to it as because we’ve already put the money and it’s already been
on the calendar. And those are things that we have put it as and it doesn’t even have to cost money
to do that. It’s like, hey, we’re doing a picnic at. xyz park and it’s like it’s in the calendar
that we schedule it we plan it we treat it like a meeting we treat it like an appointment because
if we don’t it’ll never happen and i bet the same is for you so it’s like what are those non
-negotiables for you uh that are fun right so i think that’s the first thing is just like what
brings you reprieve what brings you joy what are those moments of fun that you can bring back into
daily and i do think they need to be daily Not weekly, not monthly. I’m talking about daily.
You need to have moments of fun every single day. And maybe it’s just like you have a really fun
friend that you call or you’ve got it. You’re you’re on a friend text chain and it’s like, hey,
when we share these things every day, it’s so fun. Find the thing. that gives you joy and do the
thing every single day. Because I do think that helps you last longer. This is,
again, it’s not about how successful you are, it’s how long can you last. And those are things that
really matter. I love it. All right, it’s time for our community question. So this is where our
Brand Builders Group monthly members who are in our formal program get a chance to ask questions in
the community and they each vote up on their favorite questions. So the question for today is from
Mark. Mark says, I’m four months into working with Brand Builders Group and I am absolutely loving
it. I’m grateful for you both. We’ve been in the coaching space since 2017. I was inspired by
something you shared at one of your recent events, which is that the future vision of brand
builders group is to become a business operating system. I am wondering if you have any
recommendations on software platforms, teams, or phases of development for how we could also become
an operating system for our clients. So it’s a little bit related to systems and structure.
Um, you want to go first and share your thoughts or no. You want me to take this one?
No, I sure I have lots of thoughts and ideas. And I think, again, you have to for whatever your
business is. I think the conversation that we’re having at Brain Builders Group is how do we go
from being a luxury? business. In other words, a nicety, something that is not fundamentally
necessary to the function of our client’s day, right? So that’s what I’m going to call that a
luxury business to an essential business or a necessity. So you could either word nicety to
necessity, luxury to essential. That is the conversation that we’re having at Brand Builders Group.
And we are making a strong pivot towards being a strategy firm to a firm that helps execute
strategy. That’s how we’re going to become an operating system. And so that’s really what Mark is
talking about. So when you think about that, whatever your business is, and this isn’t going to be
a technology platform conversation. This is more of a structural mindset of going,
how do you become essential to your client? Yeah. So I would starting high level,
I would say the question that we ask is how do we help our clients get results faster?
So that’s the guiding question is to go, what tools, technology, systems,
techniques, templates do we need to create to help our clients succeed faster?
That’s the overarching question. The second thing I think you do is you go, what are the systems
and tools and technologies and templates that we use in our business? And how can I recreate those
and document them, codify them, extrapolate them? out of your head and your team’s head and get
them onto paper get them documented and go ah this is the system and then go what technology or
tool can we use to create to make those scalable and interchangeable
And that is what we’re doing, right? So in our case, we have been investing heavily in creating a
tool that does marketing automation, CRM, workflows, you know, drip email.
sequences to help people execute on the backend, all the systems and structures we do along with
content management systems, along with lead generation systems. So those are the three main areas
that we’re building tools. And I would underscore something you said, strategy matters way more
than the technology. You can get whatever technology you need to do, like to get it to do the
thing. What matters is you figure out what’s the strategy. How do we templatize that? And then just
go find whatever technology is available that’s kind of the closest and most affordable and meets
the number of things. And then make it work and do that work. But we’re trying to do as much of the
work as we can for clients so that when we teach them something, it’s like 80% executed already.
And then all they need to come in and do is tweak it and tailor it. And that’s been a long journey.
Mark said he is an eight-figure business. So this is not something you do on day one. No, and I
would just say too, it’s like you can become an operating system for your clients. sans technology
sure like you don’t have to have technology or platforms or softwares to actually become an
operating system uh becoming an operating system for your clients has everything to do with
answering this fundamental question which is what does your client need what do they need and
you’re giving them the playbook and you’re giving them and that could be a playbook could be a
playbook it could be a system there’s so many but that system doesn’t mean it’s software You have
to have the answer to these two questions. What does my client need? And what would make me
essential? Right? Like, what do they need? And what’s going to make me a line item on their budget
that’s like, can’t cut that. Gotta have that. It’s a fundamental part of our business. This is how
we do it. This is what we need. And so I think those are the two things that then you can come
with. Hey, what are the softwares or technologies or what are the things that we can have 80
percent done or what can we do for them? Those are all the fill in the gap after, you know, the
answer to those two questions. Absolutely. So if you want more help with that kind of thing or if
you have specific questions about how to customize strategy for your business. If you go to
freebrandcall.com slash podcast, you can request a call with our team. We will do the first call
for free with you. We’ll connect you with one of our strategists. So we want to invite you to check
out freebrandcall.com slash podcast. The other thing is I would encourage you to share this
episode with the busiest entrepreneur you know and maybe highlight, send them the time code of
whatever your favorite part of this episode was and just see if you can be like, hey, go listen to
these two minutes. and see if you can add value to someone in your network that way. And that would
be a great help to them and to us. And also it would be a way for you to build relationships before
you need them. So hit subscribe while you’re at it and you’re on the show and stay tuned for next
week. What do we got coming up next week, AJ? Oh yeah, I was just going to add, it’s like, hey,
let’s not forget that you did not build the business that you’re building to miss your whole life.
That wasn’t the point, right? A part of this, we started the conversation with like, we believe
that work was created in the original perfect design of human beings and so was rest.
But you didn’t build a business to miss your whole life. That’s not it. You’re building it so that
you can enjoy life to the fullest. So that is the point of this episode. And it’s a little bit of
what we’re going to even talk about on next week’s episode, which is how to protect your most
important asset in your business, which is you. So how do you do that? Come back next week and
you’ll find out.

WWK Ep 032: Another Year Wiser

AJ and I are going to share some insights of our biggest wins and our biggest losses over the last
12 months. What we learned, what we’re leaving behind, and what we’re taking forward so you can
apply the same kind of review at mid-year or at the end of the year. If there are problems in your
company, it’s looking in the mirror and going, what’s my part? What do I have to own of this? We’ll
show you how to take radical ownership, rethink how you lead your team, and rebuild a healthier
business from the inside out. Ever wonder what it actually takes to build a reputation that
generates revenue? Rory and AJ Vaden are the powerhouse duo behind Brand Builders Group,
NYT best-selling authors, and the strategists who have helped some of the world’s most influential
leaders scale their personal brands. Now, they’re pulling back the curtain on how to capture
attention, build massive trust, and turn your expertise into a lasting legacy. Get ready to elevate
your influence and your income. This is Wealthy and Well-Known.
Most people determine the success of the year by whether or not they hit their empirical goals.
But I’m going to argue and we’re going to argue that that is not the most important way to measure
success. In fact, in this episode, we’re going to make the case and we’re going to share some of
our personal insights about why success is not what happened to you. It’s what happened in you.
And this is the part that almost nobody tracks. It’s not what you did. It’s who you become.
And AJ and I are going to share some insights of our biggest wins and our biggest losses over the
last 12 months. For example, a year ago, I actually believed that nobody would show up for live
webinars. I kind of thought that people were over and done and finished with live webinars and that
they just weren’t worth doing. And I have completely, radically flipped my belief on that this
year. We know for sure that as much as ever before, people are showing up live.
They’re wanting to build a relationship with you. And if you want to activate your email list, you
want to invite them to live webinars. That’s an example of just one thing that has happened. Today,
we’re going to give you a whole bunch more. Now, today is an episode where we’re going to be
talking about the last 12 months, but it’s not a year-end episode for you. It’s a year-end
episode for Rory and I because this is the end of the last 12 months as Rory and I are approaching
our birthdays. Happy birthday! We’re only one day apart, July 25th and July 26th.
For most of you, this will be an opportunity to have a mid-year check-in. But for us, this is an
opportunity to review the last 12 months with you and help you understand how you could do your
own. you know, year-end review, whether it’s your birthday, the end of year, or is this just a mid
-year check-in? So we’re going to do some reflections on what did we learn? What are we leaving
behind? And what are we taking with us moving forward? And hopefully you’re going to pick up some
of the same things along the way. All right, Vaden. So first question is for you. What is one thing
that this year taught you about yourself that you genuinely did not expect to learn?
I have so, so many things. And I actually was in a mastermind meeting yesterday.
And one of the biggest ahas that I’ve had actually in the recent months is that most of the
problems in our business start with me. It’s like I am the biggest problem in our business.
I’m glad they told you that and not me.
Well, it’s not just me. It’s we. It’s we. Oh, shoot. Me too. And it was interesting to have that
moment of reflection because it’s been an interesting start to 2026. The last six months,
it was definitely a year that I was not expecting to have as much stop and starts,
trying new things, things that aren’t working. The market is changing. The industry is changing.
Technology is changing. It’s been moving at a rapid pace. And then on the personal side, we moved
houses. you know, way past our move in date. We didn’t have time and plans for that. There’s just
been a lot of transition. And I’ve literally been looking around going, what is wrong?
What’s the problem? And literally the last 30 days, I literally have had the realization that all
problems start with me. I’m the problem. And it really hit me yesterday. We were in a team meeting.
And so any of you who are listening to this, who have teams of any size, maybe you can relate to
this. And we have a board, we follow traction and we have rocks, which are just like our quarterly
goals. And every week we have a weekly tactical, a check-in. And on that we put issues and
opportunities and people can bring like, what are the most. pressing issues that we need to discuss
as a team. But this particular issue was brought that was a question for me. It’s like, hey, I’m
not clear what you want for this agenda at our upcoming mid-year meeting. And it hit me.
I’m like, oh, this is what I’ve been journaling about.
I have conditioned our team that I have the answer to every question. And so I am not allowing them
to think for themselves. I’m not forcing them to think for themselves. And I think there’s a part
of it of like, I enjoy having the answer. I can make quick decisions. And so we get to that part of
the meeting. And the person who asked the meeting was like, I just, you know, what do you want
here? This is what I have. But like, what do you want? And I said, you know what, team, I’m going
to try something new today. I’m not going to tell you what I want. And they all literally stopped
what they were doing and said, come again. And I said in the meeting, we have this on recording.
I said, actually, I don’t think that’s working very well. Me telling you everything. So I’m not.
How about we try this? You build out the entire thing the way you think it should be. And then you
tell me what you think it should be. And the person who was asking the question literally paused
and said, everyone, can you please document this? This is being recorded. Can someone confirm that
everyone else heard her say this? And then it really hit me. Oh, this isn’t just I have the
problem. They know I have the problem too. So I think that’s one genuine thing that I have learned
recently. Can I ask an additional question on this? So as the leader, how do you overcome the fear
of going, if you don’t tell them exactly what you want, then they might produce something that was
different than what you wanted. Because there’s a, you know, the benefit of articulating exactly
what you want is you get what you want. But that’s what I’ve realized. I often don’t get exactly
what I want. Even when you say it. Even when I say it, because I didn’t take the time to give.
Every specific nuanced thing. I have the curse of knowledge. They don’t have all the inner
knowledge that I have to produce what makes it so clear to me what I want because I didn’t give
them a three page instruction manual because who has time to do that? But are you letting go of
actually what the finished result is as well? But I think that’s where this was where the big
realization happens. It’s like I can’t continue to be the source of all answers.
I don’t know it all. Surprise. I don’t. And I think one of the things that’s happening is,
you know, the end result yesterday was you complete your entire draft. This is your deadline. Then
we will review it together. I will give you simple feedback and we’ll carry on. But I’m not telling
you what I want because that’s not actually working and it’s not helping my team grow as leaders.
So what you have to be doing here is also yielding a little bit that the outcome will be.
something you create together, you’re giving up the power of saying, this is going to come out
exactly as I want or close to what I want. And I’m going to yield that power. But the payoff is I
don’t have to make all the decisions. But what if it comes out so much better than what I thought I
wanted? Because I don’t have the same opportunity. to have the same thought process,
time, expertise that everyone on my team does. So that was something I learned this year that I
genuinely did not expect is that if I have problems in business at the end of the day, I own the
business, I lead the business, the problem starts with me. That’s a good one. I like it. Okay. All
right. I’ve got a question for you. Hit me. Okay. If there’s problems in the business,
it’s not because of me. That was my… That’s your key takeaway. That’s my key takeaway. That’s
great. Okay, so if you reflect back 12 years ago to our birthdays last year,
okay, that’s where I want you to start. Where did your plan and your reality diverge?
And what did that gap show you about what you actually value?
Ooh, that’s deep. Okay, so 12 months ago, the biggest thing going on in our world professionally
was our book launch. And we were launching Wealthy and Well-known.
And the goal was to hit the New York Times, which we did. And that was powerful because we
established this book as like our flagship. Here’s who we are. This is what we believe.
It’s the anchor. It did that. I thought it was going to bring a flood of customers.
That’s right. It didn’t bring us a flood of customers. It did bring us a flood of leads. But that
wasn’t what I was expecting. I was expecting people read the book and they’re like, OK, I’m in. I’m
buying like we’re sold. And what it actually did was it brought us a bunch of leads.
Now, the part that is here’s an honest thing to share.
We’ve had a harder year financially in the last year than in the last several years.
And part of that was because we had a hole in the back door of our business where people were
leaving the program. faster than they used to. And I think what we realized is there were some
things that we changed operationally. We were the problem. We were the problem. And I think this is
a we thing, is you and I both said, we’ve got to fix the backdoor first.
We’ve got to solidify keeping our current customers over delivering with the people who are here,
and then we’ll work on bringing more people in the front. And so when I think of the big last 12
months and to the point you said, what we’ve realized time and time again in our meetings is we did
this to ourselves. Every ratio that has changed in our business, we can point to a decision that we
made, a change we made in technology, a change we made in leadership, a change we made in protocol,
process, belief, something we wanted to try. And then we just didn’t monitor the data and error
correct quickly. And that is the theme is going, crap, we did this to ourself.
We are the problem. I liked it better when you were the problem.
So a question for you, give me a moment, a specific moment where you realized we need to change
things here. Roughly January 31st, our accounting manager came to me and said,
I can’t be a manager. I need to be managed. And this is I’m over my head.
And we made the mutual decision to part ways. But what hit me is like,
why did it take her having to come to me when I knew six months ago that she was in over her head?
I knew well in advance of her coming to her own realization, which I so appreciate because she
didn’t have to do that. Right. Because how long would it have gone if she didn’t bring it up? To
go, I am not a manager. I need to be me. I need to be managed. And I was that was the moment of
like she said it and I’m like, oh, I know. But I had known for months. And that was really the
turning point for me of like I have not faced the reality of the hard things to do because I’ve
been so I’m using bunny ears. If you’re listening. busy doing other stuff that I didn’t have the
time and capacity to handle the bigger things. And I think a lot of that was there was two
realizations. One, it’s like, oh, I’m not doing things proactively. I’m having to react when they
finally come up, even though I know well in advance. Wow. This isn’t working.
And I’ve paid the price a lot this year of inexperience and reactive leadership.
OK, so. One of the things that’s really a delicate nuance of this that I want you to comment on is,
so this marketing manager was a young woman. Accounting manager. Sorry, accounting manager.
And as a leader, you want to give people a chance, right? There’s a positive part of this where
it’s like, I want to give someone a chance to step into what we need. But then you got to reconcile
that with the going, oh, they’re in over their head. So, you know, you were you were doing you were
trying to do a good thing for that person and for the business. Well, I would caution that I don’t
necessarily reflect back and think I was. OK, interesting. And I think that’s more of an honest
reflection of for all of us as leaders. Are we stepping people into leadership who aren’t ready
because we need them to be ready to get things off of our plate? because we need them to be ready
because we need to fill that seat? Or are we stepping them because they’re actually ready? Like
qualified to do it. I think about this a lot. I’ve been, you know, as you know, but maybe others
don’t, I have a really specific journaling and prayer time every morning with the Lord. And like
one of the things that I’ve been praying a lot about is a good father disciplines his children.
And a good father doesn’t give his children every single thing that they want. And I pray for a lot
of things that God says no to. And then later I’m like, thank you so much. Thank you for knowing
better than me. And if I were to give my kids every single thing they want, it would be a disaster.
And I think a lot of times as leaders, we relent to what our team members want,
even when they’re not ready. And that does more damage to them and the team and the company and to
you as the owner than it does giving them what they want. See, I put this person into leadership
before she was ready. I should have taken the time to go, here’s a path to leadership. Here’s the
training and the knowledge that you have to have in order to embrace that one day. And that would
have given her the opportunity to opt in or opt out, which she later did. at a much larger
detriment to me, her, the team and the company, because now I have this huge open wound in the
company that I had to step in and fill. Because I think if I had done it that way, she would have
never said yes. She would have been like, oh man, I’m so glad that you made me take these classes
or read these books or step into this slowly because I would have realized that’s not for me.
Right. You mask it as like, hey, I’m creating this opportunity. But in reality, what’s going on is
this person’s not set up to succeed for what we need. And ultimately, we all know that.
And then it eventually fizzles out. Oh, yeah. Like how many times am I going to have this exact
same encounter before I change how I’m leading my leaders? Yeah. That’s good.
I mean, I will say I have become a different leader, a different business owner in the last five
months because of this. One of the things we say a lot is what got you here as a performer won’t
get you there as a leader. And I think what got you here as a leader won’t get you there as an
owner. And I think you’re really stepping into being an owner and going in order for you to be the
owner, you’ve got to have. real leaders. And so it’s like, it’s like a second rung of a big
transformation that we’re going through. We teach the stuff. We’ve had a fair bit of success,
but it’s like, it’s, it’s hard. It’s hard. And we’re learning, we’re learning lessons. It’s always
easier to see the log in someone else’s eye than it is yours. But that’s what you have to do as a
business owner. You have to look in the mirror and go, if there’s problems in your company or as a
parent, if there’s problems with your kids or as a spouse, if there’s problems in your marriage,
it’s not about pointing fingers. It’s looking in the mirror and go, what’s my part? What do I have
to own of this? And that’s humbling and that’s hard. And it’s overwhelming to go like,
crap, right? This all starts with me, but. I just believe a healthy friendship,
a healthy marriage, a healthy body, a healthy family, healthy kids, a healthy business. They all
start with someone raising their hand and taking personal accountability of going, this is my part.
I’m not going to own someone else’s part, but I’m going to start with mine. And I think that’s a
hard pill for a lot of us to swallow. Yeah, definitely. That internal locus of control is
definitely one of the things that successful people have in common. It’s like it’s on them. But I
would say it’s like as hard as I would say the last 12 months have been in terms of transition and
change and unmet expectations. There’s also been other things that have happened that have been
amazingly positive. But I just I’m a big believer and I hope that everyone who’s listening who can
relate to this. I have a ton of friends in the entrepreneur community that it’s been a hard 12
months. It’s been a hard six months to the year so far. Every conversation I’ve had,
it’s like, whoa, we’re flat, we’re stalled. We can’t do business development the way we used to.
We’re not getting leads the way we used to. We’re having to pivot. There’s been a lot of transition
across the board in at least the circles that I’m a part of. But one of the things that I just
believe, it’s like, for all of us, we are made better and stronger through the challenges.
And it’s like, if I wasn’t forced to become a different leader, then I wouldn’t become a better
leader. It’s like I would stay the status quo and growth is never fun.
But that doesn’t mean it’s not necessary and there’s not fruit on the other side of it. And I just,
I firmly believe that for all of us, all of our character is built in the valleys,
not in the mountaintops. And it’s in the valleys where a strong team is made and the valleys is
where a strong company is made, a strong family is made. But that also means you gotta muscle up.
And you got to grit through it. But when you do, it’s always going to be better on the other side.
I might take a minute, but it’s always going to be better on the other side. So that’s what we’re
going to talk about next is on the other side. I want to ask, I want to ask the next question, but
I want to answer it first. I’m going to ask it. Okay. So you want to answer your own question?
And then you can answer it too. But here’s the question. What is the habit? or discipline that
proved itself again this year what is the one thing you are never going to cut again oh i know my
answer oh my gosh okay oh i know my answer so here’s what i did i we did as a company a law that we
violated and it is the first law of sales and i learned this going door to door when i was 17 years
old it’s a numbers game It is always a numbers game. No matter what you’re selling, no matter what
the economy is, no matter what industry, no matter what price point, no matter what type of
customer you’re selling to, sales is always a numbers game. That is the law,
the first law of selling, and we violated it. And here’s how we violated it this year.
We convinced ourselves. that we knew good enough about who would buy that we could use a fancy
filter application in our free call pipeline, that we could filter out who the buyers were based on
how they would answer some questions. And when we did that, the number of people who requested a
call with us in one year who got on the phone with us was like 65 or 70%.
That was like 2024. And then in 2025, that number went down from 70% to like 45%.
And that’s because we convinced ourselves that we had enough data to be able to predict who was
going to buy. Well, in all fairness, that’s not exactly why we changed the filter. Okay, well, you
can give your story. But my story is going, however we want to slice it, we turned down a huge
percentage of people who asked to talk to us for whatever reason. We filtered out. and didn’t talk
to them. And that was a mistake because people will answer things on an application that are
different than when you have a human conversation. And I will never do that again.
So that’s how I interpreted it. Yeah. And that’s not the full story, but. That’s your version of
it. It’s my version. It’s my version of the whole story. But the thing that you’ll never cut again
is not just working the numbers. Just the numbers game. Never forget that sales is a numbers game.
Sales is a numbers game. And if you did anything, if you did anything that just reduced the number
of people you were talking to, you are setting yourself up for failure and you can’t blame it on
the economy. You can’t blame it on your team. You can’t blame it on anything else. I agree with
that. If you violate that law. And we violated that law, law number one. Yeah, so many of the
people that we talked to, they’re like, well, my conversions are so great, but my business isn’t
going. And I’m like, well, then you have an activity problem. It doesn’t matter how good your
conversions are if you’re only talking to five people. Like, that’s why your business isn’t
growing. It’s an activity problem. Mine is similar to that. And I would say one of the things that
we have always believed in our entire professional careers in sales, which is now 20 years,
is that there is power in a one-on-one conversation to make a sale.
Oh, yeah. And I think mine is very similar to this because, again, I think this is really important
that sometimes you can take the advice of one person or you can hear the desires of your sales team
or a team member and you hear it even if it’s in micro. environment,
it’s like, oh, well, this consultant said that, or, you know, I heard that on that one podcast and
now my team is saying it. But in reality, that’s a very tiny group of people. Very tiny.
But you can do that. We did that and we’re like, huh, maybe there’s something to it. This
consultant said that no one is requesting one-on-one calls. This viral clip, this random
paragraph from that one book, this speaker. It’s like what happens is your reticular activator
kicks on. Yeah. And it works against you. Because you internalize bad advice as good advice because
you hear it in a few places. Yes. And I do believe like this, it happened with a consultant saying
it, then it happened in a small room. But ultimately, why we changed our application was actually
in coordination with a back to a good father doesn’t give their kids every single thing they want.
A good leader doesn’t say yes to every idea their team has. Yeah. I said yes to an idea that was
presented by our team that was like, hey, we can’t be doing one-on-one calls with everybody.
That doesn’t scale. But we have built our entire business, the last one and this one,
on one-on-one calls. And we said, okay, well, how do we start to do this in a group environment?
How can we scale something that we actually don’t believe in? And really got disillusioned to the
idea of, well, let’s. make this easier for our sales team. Let’s help make this,
this, this, this. And instead of doing one-on-one calls, what we did is we invited people to join
a small group and we tried to do it in small groups. And it, I mean, I think we can say it failed.
Oh, it epically failed and blew up in our face. And at the same token,
it’s like in this, you know, also. Cost us a relationship with another individual because it was
like we made these changes based on an individual’s desires, based on what was healthy and right
for the team and the company. And I will never make that mistake again. So there’s two things.
It’s like, no, there is a power in a one-on-one conversation. So much power. It’s a fundamental
value that we hold that we will never waver on again regardless.
And if you just don’t agree with that, then you’re just not a fit for this team. It’s like we
believe in a power of a one-on-one conversation. That means something because we’re curating at
Brain Builders Group a community, not numbers. And you cannot curate like-minded individuals that
you don’t talk to. So that is important to us. And I think we got away from that a little bit.
But then the second thing is that I will not ever make the decision for the benefit of an
individual over the benefit of the group ever again. So that’s really two things I learned in that.
But man, I will not do that again. It’s been a painful, long lesson that’ll take us a hot minute to
recover from. Okay, here’s a question for you. Talk to us about a relationship,
a mentor, a team member, a peer, a friend, me, whoever that showed up for you in a way that you did
not anticipate in the last year and how it changed the way you think. The first thing that came to
my mind, was all of the people who spoke at our event for our book launch. So that was Eric Thomas,
Trent Shelton, Amy Porterfield, Michael Hyatt, Jasmine Starr,
Julie Solomon. Will Gadara. Yes, Will Gadara was like, we’ve spent years building relationships
with these people. And they came and they spoke at our event. And we did an event with the Wealthy
and Well-Know Book Launch. And this was an important moment for us because this was our first book
launch since starting Brand Builders Group. It was your first book. It was our first New York Times
run with Mission Driven Press, our sister company, our imprint that’s distributed by Simon &
Schuster. And this was like becoming our flagship book. And so it was a really important moment for
us. And I would say both the speakers and the customers who were in that room.
We had so many, because I don’t remember how many books you had to buy.
It was like a package, but you had to buy a lot of books. 250. 250. And we had a lot of people,
like that package sold out pretty quickly or relatively easily. Like we had a lot of people show up
for us. And that, when I think of the last 12 months, that’s the thing that jumps out to me.
And one of our mantras is build relationships before you need them. Build relationships before you
need them. Build relationships before you need them. And I think we do a pretty good job of not
keeping score, of like, oh, hey, you owe me this because I did this for you.
And we try not to ask for a lot of stuff. We try to give more. But man, it meant a lot to me,
the speakers that showed up. because there’s no way we would have been able to afford to pay all
their normal speaking fees. Like we would not be able to afford that. And there were only 30, 40
people in the room. I mean, did you say Michael Hyatt? I said Michael Hyatt. I’m trying to like
make sure we didn’t forget about it. But it’s like when I was thinking about speaking fees, I was
like, definitely cannot afford all of these people. No way. I mean, just, you know, Eric Thomas and
Will Goodere alone. And it’s like, we’re out. But they showed up and then all of the people in the
room, that was a magical room. It was some of our most loyal customers, our longstanding customers.
our BBG OGs, as we say, the Brand Builders Group OGs. That was a special moment.
And it, you know, it meant a lot to me for all of these things, but also, you know, our book launch
meant a lot to me because it was your first book. That was really important to me, our team, our
community.
That’s the moment for me. Yeah. I think one of the things before you tear up and start crying over
there. Um, as he often does, uh, one of the things that’s probably a good challenge for all of you
who are listening right now, it’s, uh, who has been that person that showed up for you in a way
that you didn’t expect in the last year or even this year or even last week. And it’s like, take a
moment today and just text them or even better pick up the phone and call them, um, and let them
know that like, Hey, you showed up in a way that I was blown away by, or maybe you don’t even know
how much this meant to me. I just want to say, thank you. I think it’s a good reminder to never
take for granted the power of a thank you because so often we just assume people know.
They don’t. You still have to tell them. So maybe that’s a good action item for you to do today,
Rory. And then for everyone who’s listening is like, hey, as you’re doing this mid-year check-in
with yourself or maybe it’s your birthday in July and you’re doing an annual review, it’s like,
who are the people I need to make sure know how grateful I am? for what they’ve done for me in the
last year. Yeah, that’s good. All right. Well, I’ve got a lot of text messages to say now.
All right, let’s do community question. Okay. So community question. So this is the segment of our
show where the Brand Builders Group members, so our actual monthly members, get to ask their
questions and they vote up on which question should be answered on the show. Today’s question comes
from Carlos, one of our longstanding members. Carlos just spoke and actually crushed the stage at
one of our events called the Member Showcase or the Speaker Showcase. So once a year or so,
we have an event where our members apply to speak at this event in front of all of the other
members. And so they get live coaching. I think we have like 16 or 18 speakers who will speak.
They get like 15 minutes each. They get multiple camera angles and they get all the photography and
the footage for their demo videos. And then they get coaching from me and AJ. And Carlos’s question
is, what advice would you give to someone who is about to speak, who got selected to speak at the
next Brand Builders Group Speaker Showcase? So although this is super specific to our community and
our members, I would say for any of you who are listening, who are like, okay. I have an upcoming
speech or a presentation. It could be a sales presentation, a presentation at the Chamber of
Commerce. Maybe you got booked for a TED talk. Like it doesn’t matter what it is, but through the
mental of like, what advice would you have? So we’re going to make it specific and general at the
same time in order to prepare for an upcoming presentation. I will hit the specifics of ours.
I’ll let Rory hit the general of anyone who’s going, hey, I have a very important presentation
coming up. What advice would you have for me? But specifically to our member showcase, one of the
things that I would really encourage anyone who’s listening, who’s a member of Brand Builders
Group, in order to prepare for what we do at the speaker showcase, I think there’s three things
that are vitally important. And I think for anyone who’s listening, you can take these and apply
them across the board. But number one, as we say this all the time, is that the most important
thing about your speech is that it’s a great speech. The content has to be good.
And so make sure that the content is tight. This should not be the first time you do it.
It cannot be, not should not. It cannot be the first time you do it. And that may mean it’s like
you’ve done it 100 times on video to yourself or to your parents. to your friends or to your spouse
or to your kids. Like, but it can’t be the first time. If it’s that important, you’re not going to
lay it on the line and let it be the first time. So that’s the first thing is the content has to be
tight. And then the second thing is it can’t be the first time. The third thing is that delivery
matters and you can have amazing content and lame delivery and the content totally gets overlooked.
I have seen so many of my favorite thought leaders on stage. and totally dozed off or left early
because the content was so rich and so good in the book or on interviews. And I’m like,
I cannot wait to see this person. And then I get there and I’m like, stay awake. I’m like totally
zoning out because their delivery was so not there. And so it’s like,
you have to remember, it’s like, this is edutaining. It has got to be part education,
part entertaining. It has got to have a mixture of story and laughter and emotion and variety.
You can’t just stand up there with a microphone and expect people just to get it. It’s like,
no, we have to take them on a journey. So those would be my three things. It’s like the content has
to be good and tight. You have to have practiced it. It can’t be the first time you deliver it. And
then it’s got to be edutaining. Yeah, that’s good. By the way, just a little secret nugget.
Ed Milet and I are going to be teaching a two-day event called Presentation Mastery this fall.
We haven’t announced it, and I’m not officially announcing the details on it yet. But if this is a
topic you’re interested in, you need to stay plugged into the podcast for when we announce it.
We’ve never done this. We may never do it again. But we’re going to be hosting an event in
November, Ed Milet and I, on this topic specifically. So stay tuned for that. I want to give you
the single greatest secret of master presenters. And it still holds true today.
And it is something, whether I’m listening to a sermon, a TED talk, a keynote speech,
here is the mistake that every presenter makes. They try to communicate too many different things
inside of one presentation. And when you have diluted focus, you get diluted results.
Here is what you need to do instead. Start planning your presentation by answering this one
question. What do I want the audience to think, feel,
or do when I am done? Period. If you cannot answer that question,
you’re not ready to start writing your speech. You start writing your speech by answering that
question. What is the one thing I want my audience to think, feel, or do when I am done?
Not 10 things, not five things, not three points. One thing. And if you have to have that as the
clear backbone and spine of the presentation, and it becomes the litmus test by which you filter in
or out all other stories, details, anecdotes, quotes, facts, illustrations, frameworks against that
as the litmus test. So that must be there. It is the most advanced and most simple technique of all
time, but it continues to be the thing that every speaker fails at. And I just cannot say it
enough. Like most speakers can talk for an hour, but cannot answer that question in one sentence.
And that’s why they fail. And that’s why they don’t break through the wall. And that’s why they get
absorbed by the noise and they don’t become famous. It’s not because they don’t have enough good
ideas. It’s because they’re not clear enough about the one great idea that they have.
So you got to be clear on it. Otherwise, you’re going to get absorbed. in and among the noise. So
if you are somebody who wants to grow your business, you want to become a better presenter, you’re
learning from the lessons that the mistakes that we’re sharing here and also some of the tips and
techniques, we would love to talk to you and we would love to meet you one-on-one. So if you go
to freebrandcall.com forward slash podcast, freebrandcall.com forward slash podcast,
you can request a call with our team and we will connect with you one-on-one. And I would just
remind you for everyone who’s listening, as you have listened to us kind of do our own review of
the last 12 months, I think this is a good reminder. It’s like, you’re not behind and you’re not
late. And this year is still being written. This story, your story is still being written.
And there is so much to learn. There’s so much to celebrate. And there’s so much to also leave
behind. And I think those are really important parts of doing this mid-year check-in and going
like, What have I learned? What do I want to carry forward? What do I want to leave behind? And
make sure that there’s a lesson in all of it, right? And so I think that’s a really important
thing. It’s you’re exactly where you’re supposed to be. And there’s a lot of your story left to be
written. Now, as a tee up for next week, it’s going to be a lighter, brighter episode as we talk
about how having fun is a business strategy. So come back next week and we’ll see you then.

WWK Ep 029: Are You Using AI… or Is AI Using You?

RORY (00:00)
There is an area where I feel like AI is cheating and it pisses me off. I used a bad word.

AJ (00:04)
Due to the

RORY (00:07)
When people literally clone verbatim scripts of other people’s stuff where they go, this is happening everywhere. They’re going, here’s a video that went viral, use AI to transcribe it, then feed it into a teleprompter and read it yourself, or feed it into your AI avatar and read it. That’s not cool. And I go, that’s not cool because it’s it’s stealing. Yeah. It’s stealing.

AJ (00:27)
Yeah, that’s

Somebody else’s

RORY (00:34)
It’s lying if you’re not disclosing it. I it it’s lying. And most of all, it’s unoriginal where I go You’re not a thought leader. You’re a parrot.

AJ (00:47)
welcome to the wealthy and well-known podcast. I’m joined here today with Roy Vaden, ⁓ who is my better half on most days. No, sometimes. ⁓ sometimes every once in a while. And today’s gonna be a really awesome and interesting day because we, like everyone else on planet earth, are gonna talk a little bit about AI, but really specifically.

RORY (00:59)
Every once in a great while.

AJ (01:12)
Where to draw the line with using AI when it comes to creating and producing content for your personal brands? So, what are some of the things that we’re using it for? What are some of the things that we’ve drawn our own personal boundaries? Of this isn’t for us, and here’s why. So, we’re gonna talk about ⁓ the powerful use of AI because there’s a lot of really great uses. And and when, where, and how do you create your own boundaries, your own lines of engagement?

To make sure that AI is a supplemental tool and it doesn’t become the creator of your own content. Rory?

RORY (01:50)
Yes. Let’s talk about that. Okay. Is that a question?

AJ (01:53)
We are gonna talk about that. So ⁓ I think this would be a great place to start is just how are you using AI when it comes to content creation?

RORY (02:04)
Yes. So we are using AI in terms of research and synth in terms of choosing the topics that we should address, right? So we’re trying to take large amounts of information of things we could talk about and trying to pinpoint and identify what topics we should.

AJ (02:25)
So

I think this is worth pausing of going, that might sound familiar to some of you and some of you are going, well, why would you do that? So can you talk about like what’s the point of doing that and how does that actually help you when you’re trying to grow your following?

RORY (02:39)
All right. So yeah, that’s good. There’s there’s two different reasons and ways we use AI for research. Okay. So one is to identify popular trends. Okay. The other is to identify needs. The purpose of identifying popular trends is to grow organic reach and sort of try to catch the more viral wave.

AJ (03:08)
Topic wise. Just what topics are trending.

RORY (03:09)
Topic wise,

the reason to answer people’s biggest needs and their questions is more of a long term ⁓ and it’s actually to try to show up in AEO answer engine optimization to show up and search. So that’s why we do and what we’re doing. One is kind of a short form viral game. The other is more of a long a long term, you know, AEO game.

And it’s very similar to the difference between social media is trends, but search engine optimization is long term. It’s just the new iteration of that.

AJ (03:45)
So you’re using AI to help you analyze and to provide some research support to know what topics are trending, where to spend time on, and then what questions we should be answering.

RORY (03:58)
Right. Okay. I think one of the important things there is to go, what are we not using AI for?

AJ (04:05)
Before you do that, I want to recap this so just for everyone, so we can make this a very tactical, ⁓ bullet pointed ⁓ podcast episode for you. It’s step one, we are using AI as a research assistant. Okay, so as a part of our content creation, SOPs, it’s like bringing on a

Research assistant. That’s what we’re using it for. Someone to scour what’s happening out there, what’s trending, what’s working, what are the most commonly ⁓ asked questions so that we can be aligned with what people are actually asking for. So research assistant, step one. Yeah. Now continue.

RORY (04:41)
Definitely.

Yes. Okay. So I think an equally important question is what are we not using AI for? We are not using AI to write the scripts that of what I will say in terms of what I think about the popular trends or what AI thinks I should say in answering the question. So we’re using it for research. We’re not

Outsourcing my personality or opinion. And that’s where I think people have to be super careful because when AI creates content, it gravitates towards the middle. It literally takes everything that is out there in the world and it sort of like migrates towards this middle mesh of what like the general population is saying. It’s it’s literally triangulating all of these things that people are saying.

And to be unique, uniqueness is about having a perspective and a point of view and a sort of strong conviction that things should be done in a certain way based on your actual experience. It’s almost the opposite of going, what does the whole world think? And let’s do that. Uniqueness is going, I don’t care what the whole world thinks. This is what in our expertise and our experience of actually doing the thing, this is what actually works.

So we’re not outsourcing or allowing AI to write our the script for what we’re gonna

AJ (06:12)
Yeah, so here’s ⁓ I I would say so step two is really what we’re not using it for, but in that same vein of like we’re not using AI to actually write scripts, think for us, create content for us, establish our thought leadership, which to be clear is no longer yours. It’s AI’s, it’s not yours. but I would say a caveat to that, a caveat to that is a few things that at least I’m doing that is really helpful when it comes to that. So like here’s a couple of best practices around where

To use AI to help with content organization, not content creation, but content organization. So I think this is a really important.

Concept that a lot of people, it’s nuanced, but I think it’s worthwhile talking about. So what I mean by content organization is I’ll ask AI, ⁓ and this doesn’t matter, whatever your preferred thing is, Gemini, Claude, Chat, like whatever, it doesn’t matter. ⁓ to go out there and say, Hey, can you please go out and review all of my top performing posts, categorize them by topics, and then tell me why those are in line with all of my thought leadership that you can find.

In my blogs, on my podcasts, on my website, and through my own personal brand documents that I’ve uploaded to store there. And so that is a very helpful thing. If it’s like it’s giving feedback to me of, hey, what your audience really enjoys most from yours when you talk about these things. So categorically, I have a topic list that I’ll go through. And then from that, I will say, hey, can you please help me create 10

Additional questions that you think my audience would like to hear the answer from from me based on these trending topics. Now, from those questions, it’s not creating my content, it’s just saying, hey, this is what I have found that your audience really wants to learn about or hear about from you. So it’s just helping me compile the questions. So it’s content organization. Then I can take those questions and I’ll rewrite them. Sometimes I’ll be like, I don’t like those, they’re too.

formal, I’m more casual. I want these to be more lighthearted. And I’ll just give it direction. But now all it’s doing is it’s curating a list of questions for me that I can then go grab my phone or schedule some content film time. And now I have a list of questions of like these are questions that feel super aligned to something I want to talk about for my audience. This is what they have actually said they like from me based on what they engage with, what they like, what they share, what they comment on. And so I’m going to take that, I’m going

to organize. I’m going to use AI to help me organize my content so I can then go and have a more streamlined and efficient and effective film day based on topics. So it’s content organization. So I do that a lot. That just helps me be really efficient and effective with the time that I have so that I’m actually creating content that people want.

RORY (09:15)
Yeah, that’s cool. And it’s almost like a second layer of research. You’re you’re researching the best of it’s like what you’ve put out there and it’s going, here’s your greatest hits, like talk more about this.

AJ (09:24)
So wait, well hold on. I have more. I have more. Okay. So it’s not your turn yet. ⁓ so part two.

RORY (09:30)
I’m in timeout. I’ll

stay over I’ll stay over here.

AJ (09:32)
Part two of content organization is this is actually how I’ve been using my drive time. ⁓ and this has been a really helpful thing because ⁓ when being a content creator is not your full-time job like mine, I’m literally having to figure out like how do I use every minute of my spare time to fit this in. Because I’m not a full-time content creator. That’s Rory’s job. At VBG, it’s not my job. Full-time is

RORY (09:57)
Part time. Yeah, part time.

AJ (09:58)
Strong

word, strong word. but so here’s what I’ve been doing is I just use the voice activation component on I so I use Chat GPT. I have found that for this sort of thing content I like it better than Claude. I Claude for other things. But this is what I do is I just talk it out and I’m I literally it’s almost like a voice memo, ⁓ but then I give it some very specific instructions. I’ll tell you, hey, here are some topics and themes that have been showing up in my life that I feel really passionate about talking about.

and I’ll say, hey, I’ve recently had conversations about faith in the workplace, or hey, I’ve been getting asked a lot of questions about how do you get rid of mom guilt or work guilt, right? When I’m with the kids, I feel guilty, I’m not working. When I’m working, I feel guilty, I’m not with my kids. Or, hey, like you’ve had this health transformation. Tell me more about that. Or, you know, all whatever it is. And I’ll just talk it out. And I’m like, hey, these are things that are constantly coming up in my personal life, social life, ⁓ business life. And I just talk

them out and then I just start ideating and I’m like what I’d really love to tell people is this or this or this. Sometimes these messages to ChatGPT are like 10 minutes long, but I’m just doing it in my drive through

RORY (11:08)
In other

words, you’re using Chat G BT as a therapist? Is that what is that what I’m just picked up?

AJ (11:13)
And then the at the end I’ll say, I need you to take all of my thoughts, all of my random commentary, everything I just shared with you. And I need you to organize it for me in questions and categories that I could then go create content for my audience. Love that. And so it is totally unorganized. I have no agenda. I am just using it to be like, okay, here’s my 10 minutes of everything that’s been going on in the last week or through conferences I was at or

client conversations or internal meetings and I’m just it is literally a free it’s a brand

RORY (11:49)
It’s like a brain dump, but you’re but

you’re using it to organize

AJ (11:52)
But

at the very end, my prompt is all please take my random splattering of thoughts, ideas, questions, and content and organize them for me. Help me create a very clear list of how these could be turned into questions and do them categorically speaking. And then for each category that you come up with, give me five, two, ten questions. And again, it’s all about the question. And I’m not saying create my content. I’m saying give me questions that I can then authentically and

in my own voice, go and answer these. So I don’t want your help with any content. You’re good? No thanks. I just want you to organize all my thoughts and create a strategic plan that I can then put on a Word doc printout and use as my as my outline.

RORY (12:36)
Yeah. So one of the things I was thinking about as you were talking about how we’re using AI and I personally am excited to use AI, which I think gives a strong distinction for what we use it for and what we do not. I’m a fan of using AI for the packaging, but not the product. So if you think about a candy bar, right, there’s the candy bar and then there is the then there’s the wrapper. I know we don’t need candy bars, but ⁓

Do I look like I eat candy bars? No. Okay, you’re whatever. Some health bar with no no sugar added. RX bars. Okay. Rx should sponsor the show now. but you’ve got, you know, the thing and then you have the wrapper around the thing. AI is great for take this thing that I wanna say and turn it into hooks so that we can use the opening screen or the opening frame.

AJ (13:28)
Create a CT.

RORY (13:28)
Or create a call

to action out of this. the other thing is like I’m perfectly comfortable having the team use AI to create thumbnails for Instagram posts, for YouTube, or titles, whatever. And yeah, and title ideas. So it’s like, I’m gonna say the thing that I’m gonna say. That’s the product. I’m not using AI for the product, but I’m perfectly comfortable with using AI for the packaging to go, how do you, you know.

wrap this up in a way that is really attention grabbing, that is really enticing, that is is is really eye opening. And totally happy with that. And that

AJ (14:04)
Say,

I would say that’s category three, right? So category one, research assistant, category two, it’s content organization. Category three would be use it for the packaging, right? Use it for titles, thumbnails, hooks, CTAs. It’s to create all the marketing assets around the content, but not the content itself.

RORY (14:26)
Yeah. And we have for our members, if you’re listening, you’re one of our members, you have access to brand bot, which is all of the bots we’ve created. We have a title bot, which is specifically to help you come up with the titles. We have ⁓ something called topic bot, which does this exact thing is it it reads your brand memory of what everything that you’ve the work you’ve done, and then it says, Here are some content ideas, and it gives you like different title options and hooks. Yeah. So that that that’s awesome. And that’s not only how we’re using it, we’re now

Institutionalizing and operationalizing those use cases for our clients.

AJ (15:01)
with our specific methodologies layered on top.

RORY (15:04)
Right. But but even there we’re not we’re not writing the script for them. We’re just creating the packaging of of the piece.

AJ (15:12)
Now I will tell you, so I would go then to category five. Did we say four? Four. Four. Category four. I skipped category four. Category four, I would also say is I do use chat to help me create opening lines. And I’ll say, okay, here, so I’m gonna be talking about today, ⁓ you know, I’ll just pick this one set or how to share your faith in the workplace without alienating other people, right? And it’s like, hey, can you create an opening line?

So that because I think that’s a really important thing. That’s kind of like on the hook. Yeah. but so I will use it to help with that. I will say often though, I’ll just use it as ideation and I’ll go back and I liked this piece, but this is how I’m gonna edit it and make it mine. So again, it’s not creating the content, but it’s the marketing components around that. So I would say on that note with other things I would put in category four, I would just use it for outlines.

I think those can be really good. So if you’re someone who doesn’t create a lot of content, again, this is not creating a script for you. This is not creating your thought leadership, but it’s going, hey, I want to do a topic on, you know, how to keep your metabolism going well into your 50s, right? Maybe you’re a health coach or something like that. And it’s like, hey, this is the topic I want to do. But what I’ll be very specific so you don’t get tempted to like let chat do the thought leadership for you is like, give me.

a three point bulleted outline.

That I can use with these are the big points that I want to hit based on my content. So you can also do it with just like bullet points to keep your I guess your train of thought focused so that your content doesn’t linger to five to seven to 10 minutes when you’re trying to make a 90-second post. So I think those are really helpful. You can just do bullet point outlines if this is something that you’re new to and you’re like, okay, well, this is what I would say. And so again, this is where I use, you know, my voice memo activation.

is I’ll talk it out and then I’ll just say, hey, can you put those into three bulleted points so I don’t miss anything I just said. I’m personally not a big fan of having every single word scripted. I think it’s great to have outlines so you can add lib, right? And I think that’s where some of like the thought leadership is really helpful, but you can use it just to create bullet pointed outlines to help you stay focused and on track, mainly for time purposes.

RORY (17:40)
All right, rapid fire questions. Let’s do it. All right. Let’s talk about video specifically. Okay. So AI generated avatars and voice cloning are becoming normalized. Where do you draw the line on what’s authentic versus what’s deceiving to your audience?

AJ (17:57)
Okay. I’ll just start with a blanket answer because we used AI to do our first round of our audiobook. Yeah. Right. So we wanted to get our audiobook out before we actually had time to go in studio and actually record our real voices. And I think the difference between, you know, what’s real and what’s deceptive has everything to do with what you’re willing to tell people. It’s disclosure. And it’s like at the very beginning, it was like this is read by A.

RORY (18:21)
Disclosure.

AJ (18:26)
AI. And it’s like, and you could there were some parts where you couldn’t tell, and then there would be other parts where it’s like, what was that? Right. And it’s like AI is not perfect in that. But I think the most important thing is to disclose it. Now we did it for a short-term temporary basis to give us enough time to get in studio and get the real voices activated, but we were just very upfront and disclosing.

RORY (18:48)
Which

is way better.

AJ (18:49)
Read by AI. Absolutely. AI is never going to be able to imitate the unique, the uniqueness of voice inflection and human emotion. And thank goodness that that’s good for us. ⁓ we’re still needed ⁓ in many ways. And so I think that would be one, it’s just disclosure. It’s only deceptive when you’re letting people think AI is you. And that goes the same with content creation.

Right? That’s the part where there’s the line, right? It’s like, are you letting people think this was you when it’s not? Or are you being up front and saying, Hey, this this voice audio is, you know, provided by AI or, you know, it doesn’t matter. So that to me is

RORY (19:29)
What whatever

whatever you gain in the automation of creating something, you’ll lose a hundred times that in trust if you don’t disclose it. So don’t think of this this is a classic trap of the escalator mentality, the shortcut seeking, I can just like have AI answer all my phone calls and make and and do all my chats and my DMs and like, yeah, you can, but you better disclose that. If you do not, I’m telling you, there is gonna be a tidal wave that hits you where you lose all.

All the trust from your community because they’re gonna be like, wait, what? This you were this was AI the whole time? This wasn’t even you and you didn’t disclose it? Like that’s a stupid idea. Don’t do that. So if you’re using AI for voice cloning and for video, just disclose it and tell people and let and let them know ⁓ otherwise you’re gonna you’re gonna pay a price later.

AJ (20:23)
Yeah, so I think that that to me is the line of delineation of are you disclosing it upfront? And as long as you are, then everyone knows. No problem.

RORY (20:32)
Yep. Okay. Next question. ⁓ for someone who has been resistant to AI, there’s still a lot of people out there on this, a lot of people. For someone who has been resistant to AI because they feel like it’s cheating, what would you say to shift their perspective on this, especially in a competitive content landscape?

AJ (20:51)
I guess my return question would be, ⁓ depends on what you’re using it for. Cheating how? Like is having an assistant cheating? Right? Is, you know, like what’s cheating? Like is getting support cheating? So I guess the question would be like in what context? So we can make our own assumptions of

RORY (21:10)
I I think this is like people think ads is cheating. People think, you know, yeah, you have a you win because you have a big team. That people think, ⁓ y you know, just i I I think really what’s going on there underneath the surface is a fear about something or also an annoyance of having to adapt and change and learn something. That’s what I think. I think if it if you’re resistant to AI, I think a lot of it is just going

I’m I’m resistant to going having to learn something new. It’s like I don’t have time to learn this new thing. And and so I think often we’ll use things like, cheating as a defense mechanism to write off is like, I shouldn’t have to do it. Is that protects me? The payoff is it protects me from having to like get uncomfortable and dig in and do something new. And ⁓ you know, so to that person I say, I feel you. Like I feel you, like I’m so

it it’s like by the time you feel like you get your hands on one thing and figure it out, it’s like it’s already changed and different and it’s been that way for decades now. And so I’m frustrated by that. But I I think you gotta beware. I think this is how you become irrelevant. I think you become irrelevant by being annoyed that you have to change. And so you don’t and the world moves on and one day you look up and you go, my gosh, like I’m I’ve I’ve been totally left behind. So that’s how I process this question and

⁓ but I feel you and but and I go like I think the resistance is is a is a fear and an annoyance and I think you just gotta be careful about what that really means deep down.

AJ (22:49)
Yeah, I think not to go too deep psychologically, but I think a lot of people who think it’s cheating to get help, it’s really that it doesn’t matter where it would come from. It’s like if you think getting help is cheating, then there’s something probably inside of you that’s like, I have to do it all by myself. Right? and that’s probably where I would lean. I actually I think about my favorite, y’all, little known fact, my maybe it’s a big known fact at this point, but my favorite television show of all time is Modern Family. Ever. Greatest show ever. And

RORY (23:17)
Greatest show ever.

AJ (23:19)
There’s this one episode where Claire has become CEO of Pritchett’s Closets. She has taken over for her dad, and she has been borrowing the marketing assistant as her personal assistant behind the scenes, but no one at work knows, and no one in her family knows. And the entire family keeps saying, I just don’t know how she does it. And she’s got the marketing assistant making, you know, brie and apple sandwiches and wrapping birthday presents and doing laundry and fill her

Is just like overwhelmed with like, how are you doing this? And the kids are, you know, like, Mom, you’re the best, you do everything. And Phil’s like, How is this happening? And it’s just, it’s a great reminder of like what what she doesn’t want to admit to anyone is that she has help. And I think where I hear cheating is a very strong parallel to the same person who refuses to get that assistant or hire that house cleaner or hire someone who’s landscape.

That’s my job. I’m supposed to be able to do it all. Or the mom who refuses to get help or accept a meal or to, you know, it’s like we have this burden of we have to do it all by ourselves. We have to do it. We can do it. I don’t need any help. And I think that this question and from some people that I talk to, it’s like I think it innately comes from more of that place. when the truth is is like we all need help. Like I don’t

think using AI is cheating at all when I disclose it and when I use it for the right things. In fact, it’s it’s helped me become more proficient and efficient at things that I was like, when am I ever gonna find time for this? And now I’m like, my gosh, I can actually do this. This is amazing. And so it but to me it’s like having an assistant.

And it’s not replacing my assistant, but I have support in the areas. And so in my opinion, if you’re struggling with like it feels like cheating, I would say like what other areas in your life do you also feel like are cheating? Because I think this would fit in there too.

RORY (25:17)
Hmm, that’s good. There is an area where I feel like AI is cheating and it pisses me off. I used a bad word.

AJ (25:23)
Due to the

RORY (25:26)
When people literally clone verbatim scripts of other people’s stuff where they go, this is happening everywhere. They’re going, here’s a video that went viral, use AI to transcribe it, then feed it into a teleprompter and read it yourself, or feed it into your AI avatar and read it. That’s not cool. And I go, that’s not cool because it’s it’s stealing. Yeah. It’s stealing.

AJ (25:46)
Yeah, that’s

Somebody else’s

RORY (25:53)
It’s lying if you’re not disclosing it. I it it’s lying. And most of all, it’s unoriginal where I go like, you can’t be a thought leader. You’re not a thought leader. You’re a parrot. Like, like don’t steal other people’s stuff and then try to position yourself as an expert. You’re not an expert, you’re a parrot. You’re cloning, you’re cloning other people’s stuff and going, that’s not cool.

So that is a place where AI is cheating and I’m I’m I’m clearly I’m clearly feisty about

AJ (26:22)
I’ll

say AI isn’t cheating. Humans are cheating. AI is just a tool. Like anything else. It’s a tool. ⁓ can be wielded for good or for bad. It’s a tool. humans get to decide how to use it. So don’t be blaming AI. It’s just a tool.

RORY (26:39)
That’s true.

You’re right. It’s like For now. Yeah. Yeah. Gosh, I hope there’s somebody out there that’s building like happy robots and positive, you know, anti-cyber scamming, ⁓ AI stuff, man, because it’s

AJ (26:53)
I subscribe

to this account on Instagram that only shares happy news. Like it’s it. They they’re only like what good news in the world happened in the last 24 hours. And it’s like pandas are no longer an extinction. Did y’all know that? The great panda is no longer an extinction. And it’s only feeds me positive news. Like the state of Florida just banned ⁓ animal abusers from owning pets. That’s amazing. That’s so great. They shouldn’t get to have pets. ⁓ so

Here listen.

RORY (27:23)
Is there anything

on there about positive AI robots and like AI ⁓

AJ (27:28)
It’s all about

animals. Okay. but it was good. It was positive. So I’m just saying it’s like there’s good things happening no matter where you look, and there’s bad things happening no matter where you look. It’s just you’re gonna find whatever you look for. That’s

RORY (27:42)
All right, community question. You’re supposed to read it this time. Are you ready? I yeah, now everyone’s thinking about pandas. We were talking about AI now.

AJ (27:46)
I am ready. I was thinking about pandas.

Big

deal. Like they were on the verge of extinction and now they’re no longer. Thank you. That’s awesome. That’s really awesome. All right. this is one of our favorite segments of the show. Every week, V BBG members vote up. ⁓ one of the most pressing questions from the community, and it gets featured here, and we get to answer it. So let me read the question to you.

RORY (27:58)
That’s great.

AJ (28:16)
This comes from Danielle. I’ve started using ChatGPT to help me write my content. And honestly, my captions have never been better. But my best friend told me it’s inauthentic and that I’m basically lying to my audience. Am I doing something wrong or is she overthinking it?

RORY (28:40)
This is balance of what we’ve been talking about here. It’s a really good question.

I think if you’re using AI to write your content, I think you’re lying to the audience. But if you created content and you shared your own original ideas and your own original thoughts, and then you transcribed it and you said, AI, turn this into a well-written caption for me. I don’t think that’s lying at all. I think that’s a great use of it. So I guess what I would say here is a way that I could maybe summarize a lot of my opinion on AI. If I’m using AI to outsource my thinking, that’s a problem.

Don’t do that. If I’m using AI to outsource the doing, I’m okay with that. What do you think?

AJ (29:22)
Yeah, I would say it it kind of goes back to like those four categories that we talked about earlier. It’s like use AI. I what did did I say AI? Use AI. I can’t hear my own accent. Sometimes it gets strong.

RORY (29:33)
A sound use A. This sounds really close to I ⁓

AJ (29:38)
Really strong.

I can’t even hear what I’m saying. but if you’re using it as a research tool to help you be like, what are the topics? What what’s trending? What are the questions? That’s fine. If you’re using it to organize your thought and your content, we talked about that. That’s fine. Right. If you’re using it for the packaging, right? And that could be the titles, the thumbnails, the hooks, the hooks, the CPAs, some the captions, that’s okay. ⁓ and then even in, you know, category four, when we were talking about

Hey, are you using it in a way to help you, you know, like kind of pace things out and create bullet points and even my write the opening line? I think that’s okay. That’s all an organization and packaging. ⁓ I think those are all things that are okay. What’s not okay is it actually becomes the source of your thought leadership. That’s not okay. That’s where it’s like the whole reason for you that you’re in BBG is so that you’re coming up with your own content based on your own experiences, your own expertise, your own

Thoughts and those are valuable. You do not need to use AI to create your content. It’s yours. Like it doesn’t know what stories to tell or what life experiences or what emotions you felt or the failures or the victories. Like that’s yours. And that’s actually what people want. And that’s also specifically to you while you’re while you are a member in Brain Builders Group. It’s like I feel called to share something to an audience that really needs to hear it in a way that only I can share it.

A I can’t do that. So the only person you’re cheating by doing that is cheating yourself of letting the world hear your true message, your real life story for hearing from your real life events and the real life feelings. Like it can’t imitate. And and when it says like the captions have never been better, it’s like, says who? Says you?

We’re always gonna be the hardest judge on our own stuff. and so I would just encourage, it’s like a little imperfection is quite beautiful. ⁓ what’s what’s really most important is that people can relate to you and that it’s personable and that it’s real. And you’re only cheating yourself if you’re not letting your real message, your real story, your real thoughts come out. That’s who’s being cheated in this. And so I would just say there’s plenty of ways to be using AI to help you be more efficient, more effective, ⁓ research, organization.

⁓ but when it comes to the actual content, that’s yours. Let it be yours.

RORY (32:08)
It just dawned on me as you were talking about like such a powerful reason for BBG to still exist. Is you go, what does AI do? AI consolidates, reviews, analyzes everything that’s out there that’s ever been created. What can it not do?

Create your original thinking about how you solve the problem from your own vantage point. Your own anything that exists in your head becomes truly valuable and truly unique as the world just gravitates towards more and more noise.

AJ (32:38)
Totally. It’s like it can’t go in and recall all of the stories and the memories and that’s that’s the human experience and it can’t do that. So don’t let it.

RORY (32:49)
Yeah. So ⁓ if you want to have some help doing that, create original intellectual property, to extract your own original thinking, to create your own ⁓ frameworks and proprietary IP, then you should request a call with us. If you go to freebrandcall.com forward slash podcast, we’ll talk to you about that, exactly what our process looks like to help pull out that uniqueness from your own lived experience to create, you know, more human emotion, more human connection and establish.

Your place as a thought leader in the world today and in the world of the future. Again, freebrandcall.com forward slash podcast. This has been a great episode, four ways to use AI and good news about panda bears. That is gonna be on the title and the thumbnail of this.

AJ (33:35)
say like if you’ve been listening for a while and you liked this content and this podcast is resonating with you like do us a favor and write us a review. That would also be really helpful in helping us reach other people who are looking for this kind of content in this way. So if you if you’ve been a fan, if you’ve been following and if you like this, do us a favor and write a review.

RORY (33:54)
And if you hate us, write a review, but don’t hit publish. Just email it to us so that we can see it. ⁓ that’s it we got for today. Welcome. thank you for tuning in to the wealthy and well-known podcast. Subscribe, share this with someone who needs it. We’ll see you next time.

AJ (34:17)
this one go viral. How do we make this one go viral? And then you go, idea. Chatbot, make this go viral. And then you’ll be like, did you say spiral? And then I’m gonna add a chatbot going, initiating spiral. And you’re like, no. Okay. And then we’ll cut it. Okay. Okay. Got it.

RORY (34:34)
What am I s what am I supposed to do? A little more

So you’ll be like, All right baby

AJ (34:45)
Has rained down?

RORY (34:52)
Say it a in in as much of an accent as you can. And then you’re gonna be like, did you say spiral? ⁓

AJ (34:55)
Give. Okay. And got it.

Got

it. Cool. Got it.

RORY (35:06)
All right, babe. We need this we need to come up with some ideas. How do we make this episode go viral?

AJ (35:11)
Hmm. I know. Chatbot, how do we make this episode go viral?

RORY (35:19)
Did you say spiral? No.

Can you can you can you also do so so if that comes together, do it. But the other is go, okay, when you say say say one, just say, I got an idea, mm-hmm, panda bears. Just say that. Okay.

AJ (35:38)
Okay.

So you’re gonna start it again? Okay.

RORY (35:45)
All right, babe, we need to come up with a great idea for how to make this episode on AI go viral.

AJ (35:51)
I know exactly. Panda Bears.

Okay.

RORY (36:06)
All right, babe, we need an idea. We need to come up with something to make this episode go viral.

AJ (36:11)
viral. Ha ha. I know exactly what will make this go viral. Panda bears.

WWK Ep 028: The Truth About Building a Paid Speaking Career 

RORY (00:00)
this is a topic that makes me angry.

Is that I think the world of speaking has a lot of predatory vendors. There’s a lot of people selling the dream of become a speaker who have not actually done it. There’s a lot of people who are like, buy my service and I’ll help you get on more stages. They’ve never actually done it. There’s a this this industry, this particular space, for some reason is fraught with people teaching how to do something they’ve never done. And I think it’s because they make a lot of money off of people.

What do you really need to have and do and become to build a professional ⁓ keynote speaking business? All things that we’re gonna talk about on today’s episode, along with

the vast amount of improper information and misappropriated information and misconceptions and miscommunicated information there is out there on this topic. So we’re gonna settle this once and for all. I’m joined by my wife, my best friend, my business partner, and the CEO of Brand Builders Group, AJ Vaden. Welcome to welcome

AJ (01:04)
Well

this is a a teed up episode for you for sure. I think it’d be good to give everyone some recap of your speaking life history and I can start for you since my job as a wife. Why don’t you I will just tell everyone what they need to know about you and

RORY (01:24)
And us. Something we built this together. So,

AJ (01:26)
Yeah, tell them about

it. So Rory’s wanted to be a professional speaker since he was in middle school. He heard a let’s see, let’s actually, this is a good time for you to see how accurate I can get your story. Okay. So in middle school, he heard a speaker. Actually, he helped hire a speaker, and when he found out they got paid, he was like, You get paid to come and talk? How do I do that? Right? Am I good so far?

RORY (01:36)
Yeah, interesting.

So that was close. So when I was in middle school, do you remember the name of the school I went to? Platt middle school. PMS. There it is. PMS. It was I saw a speaker, and then a few years later, I was in student council in high school. You combined two.

AJ (01:52)
Yes, PMS.

being it started in middle school right and that was like a really big dream and passion of his and then ⁓ I think this this is the part that’s just good for everyone to know it’s like this isn’t a new endeavor right and this isn’t also one of those things that’s built overnight right we’re always been wanting to do this and practicing and learning and honing these skills for at this point more than 20 years. Yeah. Yeah your age is starting to show

RORY (02:30)
I know, you were pointing out the gray hairs ⁓ this weekend. You’re like, ooh, there’s a lot of salt.

AJ (02:34)
My point is that it’s this is ⁓ it’s it’s like a ⁓ snowball, right? It it starts with like a dream and an idea, but the more you stick at it and the more you practice and the more you learn and the more you get coaching and the more you do it and the more you do it and the more you do it, the bigger that snowball gets, right? And then it starts building that momentum. And that also requires patience, right? It requires patience. but then

In college, Rory sold door to door and during that process had also really said, like, I want to be a professional speaker and started on the track of ⁓ doing Toastmasters and then post college, right post college, he joined the world championship of public speaking through Toastmasters. ⁓ and so again, if you’re looking for a place to hone your skills, Toastmasters is great because they’re very technical, very tactical in some of those things. And the first year that he did was a young.

Person to ever make it to the world championship of public speaking and made it to the top 10. ⁓ and you were 23?

RORY (03:41)
Yeah.

AJ (03:41)
Twenty two.

I was close. ⁓ then he didn’t win, but he was in the top ten. But I what what people don’t know is the amount of work that went in behind the scenes. And since we were friends at that point That was Yeah, we weren’t dating, but we were friends. It’s like he was like the annoying nerd on the team that was like, Sorry, can’t go out tonight. I have to go speak ⁓ at Denny’s. Like, what are you do speaking at Denny’s? And it’s like and this is the unglamorous part of the speaking story. It’s like it didn’t matter

Who was willing to listen to him? When I say Denny’s, yes, Denny’s restaurant, the restaurant, Denny’s, you heard that right. Speaking to three people sitting in a booth in the back of Denny’s. Why? Because he needed reps. He needed to practice. He was practicing his content. He was honing the skills. It’s like those are the things that people never talk about behind the scenes, right? They talk about the stage time and the glory and the fees and all the other stuff. But it’s like Rory spoke for 300 times that single year. One year. That’s almost once a day for free.

⁓ with no expectation of getting paid, but to hone the craft, to get good at what he was doing, to tighten the message. And for to be in the world championship of public speaking, the speech has to be seven minutes. That’s half of a TED talk, y’all. So it’s like you got to be dialed in. It’s got to be on it. And if you go over, you’re disqualified. So it was like a big deal, right? then he did that again the next year, right? And so it was like two years of just getting speech coaching, watching footage, watching his own footage, hiring coaches.

Like extreme, it was like very intense. ⁓ but he came back the second year and got first runner up, right? Second place, which I still think is pretty awesome. ⁓ you think it’s not as awesome as I do, but for someone in the audience of going like, no, I’ve seen the work behind the scenes. I think that’s what’s really important when we talk about how do you get paid to speak and where I’d really love to start this. And then you started charging, right? But even then, after you were second place in the world.

In the world championship of public speaking, we still spoke for free. Today, 23 years later, you still speak for free for the right audience at the right time, right? It’s different. ⁓ but one of the things that I would want to encourage as we kick this off is one of the best and fastest ways for you to become a highly paid professional speaker is to be the best speaker.

Right? You have to be really good at the content. You have to be amazing on stage. Because if you convince someone to give you money and you get on stage and you’re not good, it’s the last time. Right?

Like you don’t have footage, you don’t have assets, you don’t have testimonials, and you don’t have anyone advocating for you. So, and again, the reason that you sc go and speak for free is yes, it’s awareness, yes, it’s marketing, yes, you’re making contacts, but what it really does for you is it hones your craft. And it’s like if I’m gonna spend $10,000 or $20,000 to bring a person in to speak to our community, it’s like you better believe they better be good. They better be good on stage. I’m putting you in front of my people. And I think that’s what people don’t often talk about. They’re like, when do I start charging fees? Like when you’re dang good.

When you’ve done it so many times that people are like, you’re amazing. This is incredible. ⁓ then you do it. And it’s like it’s don’t rush the process. Be really, really, really good at your craft. And that’s why I think this is the perfect perfect episode, not just because of the marketing, but because you’re an actually very good speaker. ⁓ There’s your warm-up. There’s your intro. How’s that?

RORY (07:06)
Thanks, babe. That’s great.

Thanks. That was accurate. And thank you. ⁓ I’m excited to talk about this because I this this is a topic that makes me angry.

Is that I think the world of speaking has a lot of predatory vendors. There’s a lot of people selling the dream of become a speaker who have not actually done it. There’s a lot of people who are like, buy my service and I’ll help you get on more stages. They’ve never actually done it. There’s a this this industry, this particular space, for some reason is fraught with people teaching how to do something they’ve never done. And I think it’s because they make a lot of money off of people. So I’ve

think understanding the reps and and and what’s gone on behind the scenes and you know you left out a big part of that which is you started a speakers bureau in our first business and you recruited agents, you built up a team of people, and I was sort of like your lead product. So you guys were really building the machine sort of behind getting me out there and we’re working together, right? I’m supposed to bring back leads and and we worked at, but ⁓ yeah, so I think how do we get, how do you get your first

gig. What do you need to know about the world of paid speaking? What do you ⁓ what are the misconceptions that are out there? ⁓ the the first thing I wanna talk about is free speaking. Yep. Because there are ⁓

The fastest way to get clients in anything is to do it for free and you you go and people sample you, right? We use the phrase around our brand builders group community all the time, chicken on a stick. Because when you go to Whole Foods or you go to Costco, they give you like the chicken on a stick sample. And it’s like you have to go out there and people have to see you speak. That’s the number one reason you get hired to speak is cause someone has seen you speak and people say, Well, I I’m trying how do I get people to see me speak if no one will hire me to speak and it’s you go speak for free. And otherwise

AJ (09:03)
Even at Denny’s. It’s like anywhere. But it’s like again, like tactically speaking, associations, local groups, chambers of commerce, it’s like

RORY (09:14)
Why are associations so good? Let’s talk about that that as a potential place to go speak for free. Let’s go through a list of all the reasons speaking at associations are good.

AJ (09:25)
I think

associations are great because they have both. And one of the reasons that associations are great is because they have local chapters, state chapters, and then a national meeting. And so that’s really helpful. It’s like all in this one association, you could try to get the local chapter. Then if that goes well, you can get a state chapter. Then you go to the other state chapters and the other local chapters. So associations are great because they’re in every state.

So all you’re thinking about is like, ⁓ I have more times at bat. Like I’m just trying to go vertical. I’m working deep, not wide. So

RORY (09:57)
You

could do fifty events for one association and you hit all the state chapters.

AJ (10:01)
And

it’s and and they escalate in terms of fee ranges. At the local level, they’re probably not gonna have any budget. And if they have any, it’s a probably a couple of hundred dollars. It’s an honorarium. It’s very small. But then as you go to the state level, they probably have a few thousand dollars. But then as they go to the national level, they have larger, bigger budgets because people are paying to come to those. So it’s it’s nice because it allows you to build relationships within an organization at the local, free or honorarium. Then you get good enough or you get referred, you go to the state level.

And you can work all the states. So it gives you lots of opportunities to go deep in an organization. And that’s why we love associations on how do you actually get your foot in the door? It’s like if I just have all the information of all the, I don’t know, state school board associations, right? It’s like I have at minimum 50 opportunities to just go, I know what you’re looking for, I know what your fees are, and I have at least 50 opportunities, right? Even if you’re really bad.

Like at sales and marketing, if you have 50 opportunities and you can only like get 5% of people to give you a shot, it’s like that’s amazing, right? but it’s good because on a sales perspective, associations are great because they have to, it’s required for them to list their executive committee on their website.

RORY (11:19)
Okay, so first reason that associations are great, you can go deep i in one organization because they have so many chapters multiple fee ranges. Second reason why associations are great

AJ (11:22)
We can go deep.

Multiple fee ranges. Local, state, national. Right.

Their contact information is required to be listed on the website. So you go to any state association or any association and you go to team, about us, executive board, whatever, it’s all in there. But they actually have to share a picture, a name, and an email address.

Bingo. Yes, please. Right. And so they’re very easy and very simple to find. And almost 99% of the time for an association, you’re looking for the executive director. They’re the one who is actually going to make the final decision, the financial decision making. Even if they have a committee, it’s like I just bypass all that. And I’m looking for the executive director. Cause at the end of the day, they’re going to make the final decision and actually write the bill or write the check. Yep.

RORY (12:14)
Third reason why associations are great is because associations exist solely for the purpose of having meetings. What is the value? there’s there’s like 10. Okay, I’ll go, I’ll go. Okay. So they they’ve got

AJ (12:22)
There’s a fourth reset. Well I have another one. Okay. Okay.

RORY (12:31)
What is the value of an association other than people networking and meeting one another? And you go, okay, how do we add value? We have to create content that causes all of these people to show up, i.e., a speaker. So they must have speakers. And oftentimes, ⁓ you know, the there’s the well, so here’s another reason why associations are great. There’s so many associations.

AJ (12:55)
There’s association

for everything.

RORY (12:57)
Everything.

AJ (13:01)
There’s literally

associations for everything.

RORY (13:03)
And a lot of them, you know, a few of them do have big budgets. A lot of them run pretty lean financially. So you’re not competing with Simon Sinek and Brene Brown for that slot. You’re you’re you’re competing against other people who are in the association, who maybe aren’t professional presenters, who maybe haven’t like published a lot of stuff. So they’re gettable, they’re gettable spots. Okay, what’s the next reason associations are great to start?

AJ (13:28)
They’re paid prospecting. Because the beautiful thing about speaking to an association versus a corporation, when you go speak to a corporation, no one else in there is likely to hire you again. They just hired you to speak to everyone, right? These are all frontline employees, they’re leaders of the same organization. They all work for the same company and you’ve already

RORY (13:44)
All work for the same company.

AJ (13:48)
Spoke. You’ve already gotten the spot. You’re already doing it. Now they may hire you again for other reasons, but the point being there’s not a lot of spin-off at corporate events. Associations, everyone else is a prospect. Because the beautiful thing about associations is everyone is coming in from other companies, other organizations. It’s literally the perfect. And that’s why we’ve always had an affinity for them. And we’d be even willing to go, hey, like for the right one, like we’ll do some sort of an agreement of some sort of lesson fees.

By negotiating for other things. We don’t discount, but there could be some sort of exchange of, hey, we’ll reduce our fee by this much because you’re also going to provide me $5,000 worth of film footage or X, Y, and Z. And that’s why it’s like, hey, even if the association itself couldn’t pay the full fee, you’re literally in front of.

dozens, if not hundreds, of other organizations and decision makers that are you’re just it’s a tryout. It’s a paid tryout to get spin off. But that’s why being good on stage is so important. Because if you’re not good on stage and you get that opportunity, it just falls flat. And you’re like, well, associations don’t work. And I’m like, no, associations work. Right? These work. These provide spinoff. It’s how good were you on stage? And that’s where the honing the craft has to come first. But there’s many reasons why associations are a great

place to start. One, they’re easy, low-hanging fruit for you to get your foot in the door when you’re when you’ve never spoken before at the local level. And then you work that network and then you get referred to the state level. And that’s the other thing is like again, these are all they exist for the point of having meetings. And so they don’t have just one speaker. They have multiple speakers. They’re gonna have mainstage speakers and they’re gonna have breakout speakers. And so if you don’t get the main stage spot, take a breakout spot.

so there’s just lots of benefits of going after associations because you get so many times that bat. You can work deep in an organization. All of the decision maker contact information is found online and it’s a paid tryout to get more business. It’s a great place to start no matter where you’re at. Never done it before ever, first time, great, local level, all the way to doing the national stages where you can get lots of spin-off.

RORY (16:00)
All right.

So here’s one of the questions. So Brendan Burchard, Tony Robbins, Tom Hopkins, Brian Tracy, Zig Ziggler, many of the legends of this industry, and then also, including us, have made money speaking at a completely different type of event, which is invisible to most people in the market. This is something known as the seminar model. And ⁓ can you just walk us through what is the difference between?

Between like a a speaking engagement and a seminar, and how do you make money with seminars and like let’s talk a little bit about that in terms of a starting point for people to get paid to speak, but in a way that might be different than what they think.

AJ (16:44)
Yeah, I think again, when you’re a highly paid professional speaker, that’s you’re getting booked by other people. You’re going to someone else’s audience and you’re getting paid to come onto their stages and to be a part of their agenda. In the seminar model, you’re speaking to your audience, right? You’re hosting the event, you are the speaker, you bring the audience to you. And I think those are just two very different models.

RORY (17:10)
Yeah. And I think it you would say in a way you could say there is a pro paid keynote speaking as like you’re speaking to a private audience, right? Of a company as an example. And then seminars are often referred to as like public seminars, where there are all different just people that are in coming as individuals, and you’re either selling a ticket or ⁓ letting them come for free, or it might be some moderate ticket. And then typically the way that you make money on the public seminars is by selling something from

stage or making an offer to the people that are there. And that is, a lot of people don’t know, that is literally the first dollars that I ever made from speaking was I was hosting a free training, actually on humor training, believe it or not. And I let people come to a free one-hour training. I was teaching on the psychology of laughter. And then I sold a ticket to come to like a one-day event with me on where I would teach like the full system. ⁓ That’s also how AJ and I started first business

business together. So walk them through what our model was ⁓ when we first met and and started as business partners.

AJ (18:16)
Yeah, so I think again you have to look at and I I say this to people all the time, you have to redefine what is a speaking engagement, what is an event, right? You can host your own event, you can stick something on Eventbrite, put $200 behind it, and I bet you would have a small event of roughly 20 to 30 people show up in your local market. That’s an event. That’s you speaking in front of people. It’s just kind of have to have a back end offer. ⁓ the challenge with a lot of professional speakers is they don’t have a back end offer. They’re a speaker. That’s what

They do. So that’s the difference between are you on the path of becoming a highly paid professional speaker where that’s what you do, versus are you speaking as prospecting? And those are almost two different career paths for the professional speaker. Are you speaking as a way to generate business for your business or is speaking your business? And those are two different things.

RORY (19:08)
They

are. And and I would really argue that ⁓ most many of the people who make it as a true paid professional speaker, a lot of them survive financially long enough because they do both. They have their own events. They’re doing public seminars, selling their own tickets to their own events, or selling something at their events, and that’s where they make enough money to stay in this industry long enough to where they get known and they get enough spin-off and they build enough brand equity and reputation to where people start hiring them.

To come into the events. That’s not always the case, but a lot of I mean, you you know, some of the legends I mentioned, Tony Robbins, Zig Ziggler, Brian Tracy, Tom Hopkins, Jim Roman, like all of them did that. We did that. ⁓ Mark Sanborn, Ed Tate, these would be people more modern day who have had great professional speaking careers. They were doing both. And

That’s like you’re paying your own bills. You’re kind of like hunting the rabbits while you or you’re hunt you’re you’re shooting the rabbits. You’re hunting the elephants and shooting the rabbits along the way. The elephants are like the paid professional speaking, but then the rabbits are like your own seminars, even they can be small.

AJ (20:15)
So, as what Rory said is, you know, one of the things that we did when we started our first business in this, you know, what what I would call a micro seminar business is we would reach out because we were selling sales training. We were sales speakers selling sales training, and we would call sales teams. Again, somewhat easy to find with a little bit of research online. And it’s even easier. No, yeah. These ⁓ we’re talking about a Wells Fargo home mortgage sales team where the average office has somewhere between eight.

RORY (20:37)
Audio.

AJ (20:45)
To 10 loan officers. I would call their sales manager. Why? Because they have a meeting every week, right? So I’m looking for meetings. My mind is always going who has meetings? Who has meetings? Everyone does, especially sales teams. ⁓ Almost every company has an annual meeting, doesn’t matter what kind of company you are, or quarterly meetings. Like we have a semi annual required all hands on deck in person meeting. It’s like companies have meetings. It doesn’t have to be the big grandiose thousand person company with you know fire on the

stage and smoke machines like we’re talking about just normal meetings and that’s another way of going like hey you have a sales meeting i’d love to come in and offer a one hour free sales training why sales managers don’t have to plan the agenda that’s great for them so you got to think of like one where are meetings they’re everywhere you do it what it’s like your reticular activator will kick in the moment that you go who has meetings and then you realize my gosh there’s meetings everywhere everyone has meetings everyone’s in a meeting

Meetings are happening all the time all around me. You just have to gear your mind towards, well, then why would someone have me into their meeting? What can you do for the person who’s running the meeting? Can you save them having to plan for an agenda? Can you offer them something of value for their team? So that’s what we said. Hey, you don’t have to worry about planning the agenda. I’ll work with you. I’ll let you customize it. I’ll come in. I’ll provide a dynamic one-hour value-ridden sales presentation. You don’t have to pay for it. No problem. My only ask is at the end, you let me tell

about a big event that we have coming up and if they want to come they can buy a ticket. No skin off your back. So that’s that’s another version. I think the the goal of all of this is to reorient your mind around what is a speaking engagement. And a speaking engagement is anywhere you can speak. The end.

y’all, I was telling someone the story this the other day about one of the speaking engagements that I had that was most surprising to me and what really reframed my mind of what is a speaking engagement. We live here in Nashville, Tennessee, and I had just been networking and talk a lot about you know what we were doing. This is in our former business, and a law firm here in town, actually, our attorney was like, Hey, do you ever speak for law firms? And I was like, I most certainly can. I’ll figure it out. What do you need? And

They’re like, well, we are really looking for LinkedIn sales training. I was like, got you. Own this. Got it. I didn’t even have to talk to a person. They booked me through an email. It was $7,500. This was years, this was years ago. $7,500. So I show up literally with a full PowerPoint deck, full dress to the nines, ready to go. And they lead me to this small conference room. And I was like, this must be the green room.

It was not the green room. It was the room. And I’m like, hmm. Who am I speaking to today? One junior associate. Single audience member. $7,500 for that speaking engagement. And I was like, ⁓ I need to rethink about what is a speaking engagement.

RORY (23:41)
One person audience.

AJ (23:50)
It is any time that you are speaking to an audience. And in this particular case, at that time, that was my full fee. I didn’t even talk to them. I was like, this is the easiest sale of all time. Then I get there. It was one person.

And it’s like reframe how you consider speaking engagements. Reframe of just turning on your reticular activator to look for meetings. That’s the only thing I was talking about. Is I speak about this for people with meetings. and it will it will revolutionize your ability to get booked as a speaker by simply redefining how you think about being on stages and how you think about audiences. And that is how I built my own speaking career and was like, I don’t care if it was one person there or if there was a

thousand people there and engagement is an engagement, same money.

RORY (24:36)
I love that. There’s three things that I want to add for speakers that will accelerate your career. So, number one, you want to realize that the biggest marketing asset you have is your speech itself. Okay. So AJ’s been talking about that. The second thing that’s connected to that is that the biggest barrier to you getting your number one marketing asset out there is the fee. If you take the fee away, you get your marketing asset pushed forward. So anytime you need more speaking engagement,

You lower the fee to open up the door to being in front of more people, and then the speech itself drives more leads. The third thing I want to share with you is to go, if you can learn to sell at the back of the room.

Or just capture free calls, then you have created your own speaking career. That is the skill that unlocks the flywheel is going, I’m gonna go speak for free or low fee and offer people a free call with me and ⁓ andor sell something in the back of the room, which takes a lot more skill. But if you can learn that one skill, then it can change everything for you. And as you can tell, these are things that we’ve spent our life teaching people how to do, doing ourselves.

If you want to build your speaking career, go to freebrandcall.com forward slash podcast and request a call with our team and we can talk to you more about this. ⁓ all right, community question.

AJ (26:01)
Yes. I was gonna say before I go to the community question, I just wanted to share one other quick thing. ⁓ in this in this spirit of redefining ⁓ what a speaking engagement is and where should you speak, I just wanted to share another quick personal story that actually happened here recently. And although the dates didn’t work out, I would have said yes to this. And I just I want to constantly just reiterate to everyone who is listening, ⁓ because this is really important. Like if you really want to be a speaker or you wanna speak to Jen.

You have to look at every single opportunity in front of other human beings as something that you would just highly consider. So I have a really close girlfriend. We went to college. My college best friend, she is the principal of a pretty big school here in town. And she had reached out to me a couple of weeks ago and said, Hey, would you be our guest of honor at our middle school career day? And I like some people may go,

No, I don’t have time to do that. And if the date had worked, unfortunately it didn’t, let me tell you why I would have said yes to this. I would have said, one, are you inviting parents? Because if parents are there, I’m in. I’m in. Now, unfortunately, the date didn’t work out. So ⁓ if she’s listening to this, like she already knows the date didn’t work. But number one, it’s like our parents coming.

Right. So some might go like, I don’t have time to go speak to a middle school career day. And it’s like, well, one, I do it one, just because she’s my friend, right? And I, you know, you build those relationships before you ever need them. Two, it’s our parents coming. Three, our administrators there. Right? Because why?

There are school board associations, there are vice principal associations, there are principal associations. So going and being present at that was not just the hour to be the guest of honor talking about being a female business owner in Nashville, Tennessee. It was are parents there.

Our administrators there. And you yourself, my friend, are a principal. Can you introduce me to this Tennessee State Principals Association? What about your vice principal? Can they introduce me to the Tennessee Vice Principals Association? Because I know associations and I know all three of those exist and are in that audience. Reframe how you think about speaking and engagements and what you say yes to, even if it was a middle school career day.

So that was just a recent thing again. It’s a reframe of where are humans gathered together in one place. They’re everywhere. Yeah. They’re everywhere.

RORY (28:23)
If you think about speaking as paid prospecting, it changes everything. Or even just prospecting in general, it changes it changes everything.

AJ (28:31)
It’s a reframe. And all you got to do is reframe who has meetings, where are meetings, and that will literally change how often you hear about them and notice them where maybe you didn’t before. Okay. Now we’re already mentioned we’re moving into our community segment where somebody from our BBG community, that’s brand builders group, gets to propose a question that they would like to have answered on the show. And then all of the other other members upvote what question is most applicable and timely for where we’re at today. And that is

What we’re gonna do right now. So let me read you the question. This is from Marcus. And here is his question. I’ve been speaking for free at local events. Good for you. For about a year and a half. And I feel like I’m ready to start charging. But every time I bring up a fee, the conversation goes cold. How do I transition from free speaker to paid speaker without burning relationships I’ve worked so hard to build?

Great question.

RORY (29:31)
Mm.

Yeah. So the the number one thing that you need to do to move from free speaking to paid speaking is generate inbound demand, right? Anytime you’re making outbound demand, it’s a little bit harder to sell your value and charge for something. So when people are coming to you and asking, that’s a different story. And how do you get people coming to ask? You’re speaking for free or you know, discounted fees and you’re generating spin-off. So when people see you, you can automatically in that initial conversation let them

know, hey, ⁓ is there a budget that you have for this event? Once you share with me your budget, I’ll be glad to share send over my fee schedule and we can talk about whether or not we can make this work. But I think just realize that when leads are coming in, you are in a much better position to sort of establish yourself with a f with a fee. So those are a couple thoughts that I’ve got right off the bat. What do you what do you think?

AJ (30:24)
So I think this

is ⁓ really important ⁓ for everyone to realize is that you always have a fee. You don’t always charge it. Okay, you always have a fee. And I think a lot of people get confused, maybe when we talk about, hey, go speak for free, ⁓ as if you didn’t have a fee. No, you have a fee. You’re just not going to charge it when you’re first starting out. And I think that’s the first thing. This is around positioning. So even with this career day, right? I would have said, hey, my normal speaking fee is this.

I’m guessing you guys don’t have the budget for that sort of thing for a career day. Right? Well, friend, let me tell you why I’m not gonna charge that fee.

Right. And so I think one is setting the pace, even when you’re willing to do it for free, even when you’re first starting out, even if it’s at the back of a Denny’s, even if it’s a middle school career day, even if it’s at a local chapter, they need to understand from the get-go, and it’s not too late to do this, just start doing it now, that even though you’re not charging it, you have a fee. It’s amazing how many people don’t realize that people do this for a living. They just think it’s like.

Charity. They think it’s a a hobby. And it’s like, no, you have to be the one to say, here’s my fee. Here’s my program description. And because it’s local, or because of this, this, or this, I’m willing to waive my fee for this, this, and this. Because I am trying to break into this association because you’re going to put me in front of other business owners, because you’re willing to give me a testimonial, because you are willing to give me referrals, because you are willing to provide me with footage. So I

always have a list of concessions, right? I always have a fee. And then I always have a list of concessions of when, where, and why I would reduce or eliminate the fee altogether because I don’t have to get on an airplane and it’s local. Because I have X, Y, Z ties to this organization, because I’m trying to break into this. But the point is is you have to let people know even when you speak for free, you have a fee.

And I bet that’s why you’re getting a little bit of resistance right now is well, whoa, whoa, whoa, you’ve been doing this for free the whole time. Now all of a sudden you’re charging. Well, one, that’s how business works, right? Supply and demand. But two, it’s also because you’ve likely never shared that you had a fee to begin with.

Right. And so that’s where making the transition from free to or from free to fee gets a little challenging, is it feels like, well, you were doing it for this and now it’s this. Well, I I if if I had known that, I would have never done it. And it’s like, well, let’s start with the very beginning, which is I always have had a fee. I just didn’t charge you for it because of X, Y, and Z. So you always have a fee, and then you need a list of concessions that would reduce or eliminate the fee altogether. And that is

an easier, more simplistic way to go from free to fee.

RORY (33:17)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah. The other thing is to go, like we’ve said, if you can learn to generate leads from your speaking engagements, you only start taking free engagements that are in front of your perfect prospects and you pay yourself, right? You pay yourself from the business that you generate out of that. So there’s lots of ways to get there. ⁓ one other big question or one other tip here on getting paid to speak. When if you have inbound inquiries, one of the first things you should say is, What is your budget for speaking engagements? You also can ask.

who did you hire last year? ⁓ because then you can get a you can get a sense of, you know, do they understand? Do they have a budget for this? Is this a part of their, you know, their normal line item? And you kind of work your way up from there. So there you have it. Anything else that you want to do to say to to wrap up this this conversation on paid speaking engagements and how to get started and where to go?

AJ (34:08)
Think the last

thing I would just say is like the more you speak, the more you get to speak. ⁓ and that’s true for most things. The more you do it, the better you get, the more people realize you do this, ⁓ the more referrals you get, the more the more awareness that you get is like the more you speak, the more you speak. And so be willing to speak for free, but always have a fee. I think that’s really important. But also, if you’re gonna go speak for free, then you need to put on your sales and marketing hat while you’re there. You’re not there to show up 10 minutes before, go on stage and leave. What’s the point of doing that? You need to

To be there before. You need to network, right? You need to be there after. You need to meet people. You need to have a good, clear call to action from stage, at least getting people’s email addresses. And that’s why we say there is a strategy behind everything that you do. you got to build relationships with a meeting planner. Who else could they refer you to? It’s like when and if you’re willing to do it. Yes, it’s for practice, but there’s also a strategy behind it of relationship building, marketing awareness, email capture, ⁓ networking on site. There’s so many.

many things that go into that. It’s never just a one and done. It should never, let me be, let me rephrase that. It should never be a one and done. You get there early, you stay there late. You’re there to generate business. So you got to go there with sales hat on.

RORY (35:21)
Yeah. If you need encouragement, accountability, support to help you do those things, go to freebrandcall.com forward slash podcast. We’ll share with you exactly how we do that for people. And whether you do that or not, please come back and stay tuned in for the next edition of the wealthy and well-known podcast. We’re glad you’re here. Go find someone to serve. We’ll see you next time.

AJ (35:41)
that was some pretty good information today. Yeah.

RORY (35:44)
I mean, we know something about this. So subscribe.

WWK Ep 027: Small Audience, Big Money: How to Monetize Without Millions of Followers

RORY (00:00)
here’s something that I’ve been changing my mind on lately, which is the value of consistency in terms of your posting. if you’re trying to build a large following and you’re trying to be an online marketer and you’re trying to really grow that aspect of your business, consistency is really key. It’s really important. If you’re a small, small,

Business, and if you are sort of a micro influencer who’s gonna make a lot of money from a small audience.

I actually don’t know that you should be spending all your time cranking content consistently. And the reason why is because the algorithms are no longer just rewarding you for cranking out a whole bunch of content.

AJ (00:42)
In a world where everyone thinks that bigger is better, today we’re gonna talk about the power of a small audience. And I think this is a good reminder for all of us, including me. So maybe today is just for me that bigger isn’t always better. And that a small audience can actually generate just as much, if not more, revenue than a big audience. Would you believe that a smaller audience can actually be

More powerful in generating revenue from your business than a huge audience. And would you believe that some of the highest paid experts in the world actually have an embarrassingly small audience? And so that’s what we’re gonna talk about today is how do you monetize a small audience and that it’s never too late to get started, and that it’s most powerful to serve the audience that’s right in front of you. And you can do that whether you have 10 followers or 10 million followers. So, Rory.

Here’s my first question of today. All right. All right. If you were to narrow it down to some of the best monetization models.

That would help someone go, I don’t have a big audience. Actually, I have a relatively small audience. We’ll say below 5,000. Below 5,000 followers online. We’ll say email us and all of that. But if you have you have a small audience, what are some of the best monetization models that you can use to actually generate revenue and create a business with a small audience?

RORY (02:09)
Yeah, so it comes down to one word, I would say really is like intimacy or access. When you have a small audience, what people are gonna pay you for is more access. Right. When you have a big audience, they they they don’t get close to you. But when you have a small audience, you can serve people in a very close way and they will pay money for that access. So I think, you know, my brain immediately goes to coaching and consulting as the actual business model to.

Make a lot of money from a small audience. Why? Because those are the most intimate environments from a business model where you go, I’m really getting to know people. I’m I’m working closely with them and their team. I’m probably walking with them over some period of time. And so they get access to me. And then also to the extent that I can do more done-for-you services, that is going to be the primary, those are the primary levers that I’m pulling: access and execution.

To go, hey, we we can get a lot of money from a very small audience. Even one customer, you know, two customers, five customers, ⁓ you know, you can make a lot of money serving people. And when we say you make a lot of money serving people in a deep way, that’s what we mean. You’re up close with them and you’re walking, we’re walking with them to the point of executing exactly what you have to share.

AJ (03:34)
So for clarity’s sake, can we just define what is coaching versus consulting?

RORY (03:39)
Yeah,

that’s a great question. ⁓ I want to hear your answer to this too. Okay, so basically

the the the simplest delineation in my mind between coaching and consulting is I think of coaching as B2C business to consumer. I’m working with an individual person. ⁓ I think of consulting as you know B2B business to business. I’m working with a group of people or a company. And even if I’m I can be coaching as a subset of consulting, but it’s like I’m consulting an organization and as part of that package

I’m coaching individuals. So I think that’s the main delineation that I have, but it’s it’s still they both sit inside the vein of: I have a framework, I have a methodology, I have unique intellectual property, I have a unique method, something we would call your modular content method, and I’m deploying my method.

to an organization or an individual to help them apply that to resolve a problem and achieve a payoff. And it’s just am I doing that at the organizational level or am I doing it at the individual level? That’s it.

AJ (04:47)
Yeah, I’d I’d say my definition’s pretty dang close to that. ⁓ it’s just a a one to one versus a one to many. It’s like when I think about a coaching relationship, it is a one to one relationship. When I think about consulting, it’s what am I institutionalizing that is one to many. ⁓ it’s for the people who are here today, but also for the people who will be there in the future. I’m putting systems and processes in place that allow people to run on a track. ⁓ so it’s more systems and process driven. It’s more

are what I would say corporate.

RORY (05:22)
Give give give us some tangible examples because ⁓ so here’s something that I don’t think not everybody knows about you because you know today you’re the CEO of brand builders group and we do what we do. ⁓ in our former business, among other things, you ran a consulting division that was a multi-seven figure division inside of the whole company, and you were doing a lot of this B2B. What when you say installing systems, giving people a track to run on, taking a methodology and applying it one.

to many. What are examples of the kinds of systems? What are the ways you’re institutionalizing your expertise in an organization at scale that allow you to charge high fees and and more importantly, bring high value worth high fees?

AJ (06:07)
Yeah, I think one of the biggest opportunities for people who want to be consultants or who are consultants and who are maybe even asking this question of like, well, how do I better monetize what I’m doing in my consulting business with a really small audience? And the beautiful thing about consulting is you don’t need a big audience. you couldn’t handle a dozen projects if you wanted to. Like if I had three projects running at the same time, I was like

trying to breathe air through a straw in the middle of a tsunami. Like more than three or four projects. I couldn’t handle more than that. But that has a lot to do with how do you define consulting, right? And it is the institutionalizing of systems and processes. So here’s one tip to ⁓ actually help monetize a consulting business is I started every consulting project with a research phase. And I think a lot of people don’t do that. In fact, I know a lot of people don’t do that because we have hired many a consultant

that never offered that. Or at least we considered hiring them. But I think that’s a really big part of like I was like, I can’t even tell you what you need. I can’t even offer my services to you because I have no idea what you have in place. So if you really want to consider this, what I will sell you where we start everyone was a flat consulting package that was just a research package. Now, this isn’t a research study. This is hands and feet

Hitting the pavement and being like, I’m coming in and I’m secret shopping. Right. I spent three months as a somewhat undercover retail operations person for a client that I cannot name publicly here because I don’t think that would be fair and right, but it’s like I had the uniform.

Right. I was working in the retail stores, ⁓ doing research. That was a part of what I was being paid to do. Why? I needed to go. Did the systems and operations that they had as a company actually make it to deployment in the stores? Were they actually using the scripts? Did leaders actually do what they were taught to do? Right. So it’s one thing to have systems and processes. It’s another thing for your people to actually use them. We know that even internally at our small company. So a research phase is going, hey.

If you really want to see movement and success in your organization, then I first have to assess where you’re at. I can’t help you get to where you want to be if I don’t know where we’re starting from. ⁓ Also, that’s a part of the adoption process. It’s going, I have to be able to culturally align whatever I’m doing to something that’s going to fit in your organization. And that’s why I charge a premium. Everything I’m doing, even though there are systems and processes, I’m going to adapt them. I’m going to mold them. I’m going to customize them to fit within your culture.

Cultural parameters based on something that I think your people would actually do, that they would actually adopt. And I can’t tell you how to do that if I don’t know your people. So I would be reviewing scripts. I’d listen to sales calls. I’d sent in call centers for hours and hours at a time, listening to how people answered the call, had the conversations, ended the call. I would ask them how they documented stuff. They thought I was there often being onboarded as a new employee. So it wasn’t deceptive. I just didn’t share a whole lot. And I was introduced as hey.

She’s here shadowing today. And it’s amazing how many people never asked. What are you shadowing for?

RORY (09:26)
And so you

you would actually companies would actually pay you to basically just go listening. Just listen, read, watch what they’re doing. You’re not actually teaching them anything. You’re not doing anything for them. You’re just learning effectively. You’re learning their organization and how they do what they would do.

AJ (09:33)
What’s happened?

Absolutely. And then at the end, I provide my feedback analysis and recommendations. And at that point, my part of the process could be done. And I was like, you can take this research report. because this is hands-on research of what’s happening at the frontline level, at the mid-level manager, at the executive level. This is what’s being used. This is what’s not being used. Here’s why it’s not being used. Here’s what’s working. And here are my recommendations of what need to be improved. And on a consulting basis, most people

Are going, hey, we’re trying to increase increase top line revenue. ⁓ 99.9% of the time, it was something to do with revenue generation or revenue retention. ⁓ and then I would say, here’s the real problem: there is no consistent sales training. There is no sales training, there are no scripts, there are no processes to follow. You don’t even have regular meetings, there’s no chain of communication, there’s no

No, whatever. The point is, is that is one way for anything that you’re doing as an actual consultant to be implemented and to get real results, is that before you go and deliver, which we often hop to, it’s go, hey, first I have to assess. And it didn’t matter how small the company was. I did this for companies that were as small as twenty or thirty people. And I did this for corporations that had hundreds of thousands of employees.

RORY (11:08)
And to so to tie this back to monetizing, if you have a small audience, right? You can’t provide that level of service to clients and have hundreds of clients to go spend four hours watching their videos, watching their people, going through their website, secret shopping them, reviewing their internal training materials, interviewing their leaders, interviewing their frontline. And you go, that is a massive value add. And it’s exactly what we’re talking about when we say it’s more access to you.

It’s a more intimate experience. And the end of that first project is just telling people what to do. So you learn and assess and then you tell them what to do, but you don’t tell them how to do it. That’s what they hire you for on the ongoing basis. But so that would again a few clients, a big big big

AJ (11:57)
There’s a great ways to a great way to increase monetization if you’re a consultant. And then coaching was always just a part of what we included in the next phase. That’s like part of what you need is you need coaching. Like these people need help. They need support. They need guidance. so I would just say like that is one way to monetize a very small audience because you can only handle a very small amount of people doing that level of intense work. So you don’t need huge audiences for one-on-one coaching or for consulting.

And again, it doesn’t matter the organization size. ⁓ It’s like, you know, you’re paying a premium because you are paying me to do something that is completely custom for you. It’s this isn’t a course. This is like I am in your uniform, in your call center, following your people, going on sales meetings. And so you can charge a premium for that because it’s so custom and it’s so tailored.

RORY (12:50)
Yeah. And it I think when you think about monetizing a small audience, I think about this as like David and Goliath, right? It’s like if you’re Goliath, you’re big. You’ve got a big audience and that gives you certain advantages. But most people who have a big audience monetize it by selling lower price products to a lot of people because they built a big audience by sort of generally applying at a sort more surface level to a lot of people. If you have a small audience, that’s like David, right? You’re more nimble. ⁓ and

You go, I can serve a small number of people, but in a much deeper way, a much more intimate way, and a much more customized way, which I think is a big word that you use there. And people will pay for that premium. They’re not paying you a lot of money because you have a lot of followers. Nobody pays you a lot of money because you have a lot of followers. People pay for a result. They pay for you to solve a problem. They pay for you to be helpful and to be customized and unique to their situation. And that doesn’t have anything to do with how many followers you have.

have and you could actually argue that the smaller the audience you have, the smaller the team you have, the more time you have available to be with clients because there’s less time you’re having to do to like manage your team and your media company and and do all of those things.

AJ (14:03)
Thanks.

So here’s what I would say is if you’re because the question really to go back to this is what are the top monetization models that you can use with someone who has a ⁓ smaller following, under 5,000 people? And we’re saying it’s one-on-one coaching or it’s consulting. Now, I think something that’s really valuable to add on to that if you’re, you know, sit in that coach or consultant category is to go, well, how do I get started in that? Right? Like if what if this is ⁓ a business model that I’m new to? Like, how do I introduce myself as a

coach or consultant. And here’s where I would say that true expertise is your biggest advantage. And this is where I would also say that our what I think is one of our most powerful quotes out of our book, ⁓ which is about the person you serve. And what we say all the time is what, Rory?

RORY (14:51)
You’re most powerfully positioned to serve the person you once were.

AJ (14:55)
Okay, so pause right there. You’re most powerfully positioned to serve the person you once were. This is the fastest way to activate a coaching or a consulting business. I’ll give you a couple of ⁓ nuanced micro examples that are varied just to help you have a little understanding of like what

I don’t know. It’s like I I’ve been in roofing sales for the last 20 years. Like, how would I do that? So we have a client at Brand Builders Group. Who is that person? He was a top 1% in the nation salesman for a nationwide roofing company.

Okay, they went through a merger acquisition, something. And anyways, his office got closed and he found himself ⁓ without a job. he was getting recruited left and right to join all these other roofing companies in his local area in Florida. But he didn’t want to do that. He goes, I actually want to build my personal brand. I want to get out of being an employee for another company. And I I at this point doing this for I think he had been doing 30 years, he goes, I want to build my

personal brand. How do I do that? And I’m like all these companies that are recruiting you to come and be their top performing salesperson, just saying you’re not for hire, but you are available as a consultant.

Right. True expertise, true results was the pathway for him to building his coaching and consulting business. He didn’t even have to go find these people. He just had to take these recruiting calls and turn them into sales calls. So that’s one way, right? So let’s just say you found yourself being laid off or there was a merger and an acquisition or whatever, but you’ve got real expertise and a real reputation in your industry. That’s why building a personal brand, ⁓ even as a corporate employee, even as a frontline

Salesperson for someone else matters a lot because he had a reputation and decades of real results and experience where people started calling. They were blowing him up. And all we talked about is take those recruiting calls and turn them into sales calls. You’re not available for hire, but you are available as a consultant.

RORY (16:59)
And an easy line to say there is to say you’d have to pay me so much money to be an employee, you could not ever afford it, but you can fractionalize that and I can not only d you know help your team, I can install the principles that makes everyone on your team do in exactly what I did. And that’s because you had the results to prove

AJ (17:19)
That’s right. So that’s the first example. The second example is how do you make this transition? So let’s say you are trying to make the transition out of corporate. And one, let me just say this as a caveat. I do not think everyone should leave corporate. I do not think everyone should own own their own business. I do not think everyone should be a coach or consultant. That does not serve everyone really well. I think it is great and amazing for some of us to be nine to five employee jobs. That is like what we were built and suited for. And companies need you. Companies need it. So like let me just say that. Like not everyone should do

RORY (17:48)
It’s

also not as easy as glamorous to be an entrepreneur.

AJ (17:51)
Like first,

I’m not saying everyone should just like bail or threaten their employers. Cause if my team says, ⁓ listen to that podcast, I’m gonna have like a full on like meltdown and be like, delete that podcast, right? That’s not what I’m saying. ⁓ but I do think this is important. ⁓ if and when the time comes where you’re like, hey, like, I do have a calling on my life and I do know I need to go do this other thing. Like a great transition out is to contact your current employer and be like, hey, I’ve got to go do this other thing. Like, I feel called to do it. I can’t be a full time

I’m employee anymore, but would you ever consider retaining me as a consultant?

So that could also be another path to transition. ⁓ not allowed for our team members, of course, because you want to be full-time employees here at VVD, but for other companies, that is a really good transition that I have actually had lots of people at Brand Builder’s Group go, hey, because I was so valuable, because there was so much trust equity in the decades and decades that I had been there, this was a good, healthy transition for me and for them. Instead of leaving the organization, I became a consultant on retainer as I started.

building out this other business and it was a win-win for both entities. That doesn’t work all the time. It does it’s not a good fit for every situation. But one is to turn recruiting calls into sales calls. the second thing is to make your current employer your first client as you’re making this transition out of corporate. So those are two things. The third thing that I

RORY (19:14)
Just on

one thing on that. So and often what happens is the the company’s gonna pay you less money. So one, you had to get great results when you’re there.

You had to kill it. And then what happens is they go, Okay, I can actually pay less money to hire someone else to do your job. You’re gonna train them to do that as a and then and now I’m your customer and you have to take care of me as getting one customer to go off into the into the future. So but that does happen, ⁓ that that that can be a good way where you’re saying it is a win for everybody and sort of like a springboard for somebody.

AJ (19:45)
Yeah,

it’s a it’s a healthy transition path for both parties. because losing top talent is hard for any organization and starting your own business is especially hard for any individual.

RORY (19:55)
But as a consultant, you have to think that way. You go and I’m I’m trying to replace myself. People are paying me a lot of money, but not forever. They’re paying for me to install a system and a process that other people can step into. And that’s what you’re doing. And when you’re not serving a lot of customers, you’re not having to cater to a large audience, then you can do that kind of deep work.

AJ (20:19)
And then the third thing I would just encourage is I think the third way that you could kind of start up in this is really where you’re actually, and I I really do strongly believe this, is that you are a local presence. Like I really do believe that most people’s initial coaching business and initial consulting business comes up with local clients, local prospects, because you are a local presence. That means that you’re a part of different associations and networking groups in the town. You are an active member of your church.

You serve on nonprofit boards, you are a well-known community member. And I think that’s really important in an era where it’s really easy to sit behind a screen all day long. And I just remember this, ⁓ I heard this a long time ago, is like be with people before paper, people before paper, people before paper. and this never rings more true is that when you’re actually trying to start your own thing as a coach or a consultant or even your own business, is that you already have an established community.

community presence. And people are coming out of the woodworks to go, how can I help? Who can I introduce you to? Because you are an established person in that local community. Because I bet most of your first clients will come in your local community.

RORY (21:33)
Mm-hmm. Yep, I agree with that. I mean it’s gonna be referrals, it’s gonna be word of mouth. Th and you know, crush it where you’re at, right? The best way to get your the next thing is to be awesome at your current

AJ (21:44)
Exactly where you’re at.

RORY (21:45)
And

when we say the the best marketing in the world is a changed life is going, you need one customer who has an amazing experience with you who’s gonna introduce you to their people. That’s right. And if that’s not happening, that means they didn’t have an amazing experience, which means you need to go back and work on your product a little bit. So there’s a question ⁓ here, what role does content consistent consistency play in small audience monetization?

we hear a lot of people feeling like they’re po posting into the void. How do you keep going when the numbers don’t feel like they’re reflecting the effort? That’s good. So here’s something that I’ve been changing my mind on lately, which is the value of consistency in terms of your posting. ⁓ if you’re trying to build a large following and you’re trying to be an online marketer and you’re trying to really grow that aspect of your business, consistency is really key. It’s really important. If you’re a small, small,

Business, and if you are sort of a micro influencer who’s gonna make a lot of money from a small audience.

I actually don’t know that you should be spending all your time cranking content consistently. And the reason why is because the algorithms are no longer just rewarding you for cranking out a whole bunch of content. ⁓ And as a small business owner, as a micro influencer, the way that I think most of you are going to make money from social media is not that media is generating leads. It’s that it’s the new website. It’s that when you’re at your local chamber of commerce and someone hears your name.

They’re gonna go look you up on LinkedIn. They’re gonna go look at your Instagram profile before they talk to you or before they agree to a meeting or just in their decision-making process. And what I think matters more is having

A few pieces of really quality content that people see on your feed, they’re not gonna buy from you because you post every day at 9 a.m. But they are gonna buy from you when they look at your last 10 videos and they go, my gosh, all 10 of these videos are killer. I got 10 tips in 10 minutes that blew my mind that were more valuable in their free content and more beautiful and presented well than what I paid my last consultant in their monthly retainer, right?

That’s how I think the future of making money from a small audience connects to social media. And I’m, I think I’m gonna stop encouraging the people with the really micro audiences to just be like, you just gotta keep creating content and create content and create content and post thousands of times a day. I don’t see that, I don’t see that small creators are making a lot of money that way. I think if you wanna build up, be a micro influencer and you get to 10,000 followers, you’re gonna get some brand deals, but that’s not how you’re gonna get rich. And I think the consulting and the coaching, you make a lot of

of money by having a few pieces of really quality content and you make sure every one of your prospects sees them and you you feed it to them in your email nurture sequence like you know send them an email with a link to your best performing YouTube video. I think that’s what it really is about because the algorithm there’s too much noise and the algorithm is just not rewarding volume. ⁓ and AI is, you know, people are produce producing so much garbage.

AJ (24:54)
So

I would ⁓ so I think this is a worthy content topic to go, okay, so posting every day might not be all that fruitful for someone with a small audience, but what’s the frequency that you need to hit at minimum?

RORY (25:08)
You need to not look like you’re a ghost, right? You need to not be like, I posted I posted in 2023 a picture with my cat. That’s not that ain’t it.

AJ (25:16)
Yeah. So but even if it’s good quality content, and I can just tell you, like as somebody who is vetting vendors and employees, like if you haven’t posted something in the last 30 days, I skip over you. Like if I’m going and looking LinkedIn profiles would be a great example. It’s like, because that’s where we do a lot of our business recruiting and or vendor vetting. And it’s like if it’s not a complete profile, i.e., there’s not even a picture, or the last time you posted anything was months ago, I literally I’m like

Like I’m a

RORY (25:47)
They’re an inconsistent person. They look like an inconsistent person.

We were literally texting about this this morning. A vendor we’re evaluating that is one third the cost of other vendors that we’re looking at, but but their their content is very inconsistent and the service they’re selling us doesn’t at all match up with the content that they have posted. And it’s like, yeah, they’re cheap, but it it looks like that’s why they’re cheap, is it it doesn’t match up what we need. And it’s like, ⁓ I don’t know, like we have to we have to discuss this and figure it out. But that’s a great example.

AJ (26:19)
Well, and I would

just say, like, even as an employer who’s recruiting, right? And it’s like the first thing I do, literally, I think this is good for us all to think of like where do personal brands really matter, right? And it’s like the first thing I do before I go through your resume is I go to your LinkedIn profile.

I come back to your resume to verify, but I’m going there to go like, are you engaging? I want to be like, what what did you have to say online? Have you gotten endorsements? It’s amazing how no one has recommendations. And I’m like, huh.

Like, are you not asking for them? Do they post? What are they posting about? What are their interests in? Your resume is the static thing that you fill out and you forget it. It’s a set and forget thing that people are only updating once they’re looking for a job. ⁓ that’s not a

RORY (27:08)
Public. It’s

also not public. So you don’t have the corroboration of

AJ (27:12)
It’s not an

indicator of a good candidate or not, in my opinion, anymore in today’s time. It’s, you know, you update it only when you’re looking for a job. It’s like, it’s not something you keep up to date. It doesn’t give me anything cultural for me to go, like, are you really a values alignment? So I go to your LinkedIn and it’s amazing because we’re in the middle of hiring somebody for our finance team and it’s like

There’s no pictures. There’s incomplete profiles and it’s like their resume looks amazing. And I’m like, you don’t even have a picture. You don’t even have a complete profile. Like I I no. Moving on.

And so again, even in a finance and accounting world, I don’t expect you to be some content creator or ⁓ you know, some finance, you know, influencer. But I’m going like, this is a public facing representation of who you are. And there’s nothing there. There’s no recommendations. There’s no interests. There’s an incomplete profile. There’s not even a picture. And the last last job that’s mentioned is one that you had five years ago. I have a problem with that.

As a business owner in today’s time, when I’m going like, hey, I have to know more than just what it says on a piece of paper that can’t be corroborated.

RORY (28:21)
So one of the things that we’ve been doing recently that’s been awesome is we take members of our actual paying community at Brand Builders Group and they ask us questions and the other members vote up the topics. And those are the questions that we choose to answer here on the show. So this one comes from Trevor. Trevor says, I’m a business consultant with 12 years of corporate experience, and I know I have real value to offer, but

But I only have about 1400 LinkedIn connections and barely any social presence. Everyone I see succeeding online seems to have hundreds of thousands of followers. Is it too late for me to build something real or am I starting from too far behind?

AJ (29:03)
No, it’s not too late. No, you’re not starting too far behind. Remove the word only before 1400 and the perception you have is not accurate. So let’s dissect this question a little bit. Like one, you have 1400 followers on LinkedIn. That’s amazing. You only

Again, it’s like again, this is I think is really important. You’re a business consultant. We just talked about this. Like this whole episode is for you. Trevor, I really I’m gonna figure out who you are and I’m gonna send this episode to you because this is really important. Like you don’t even need 1400 to have more business than you can handle. You are a business consultant. That’s what you do. We just said if you had more than three or four clients, you’d be so inundated you couldn’t breathe. ⁓ so again, it’s it’s reframing what we what we really need to focus on, which is how many clients do I need? How many of my

What new ones am I trying to get this year and reverse engineer that? So one, remove only. You have 1,400 people who have invested into your content. That’s amazing. How can you go better serve those 1,400 people? How can you better outreach to them, but build better relationships with them, give them the content that would generate your next 10 clients? So one, congratulations, you have 14. It’s not only you have 1400 connections on LinkedIn. Amazing. ⁓ Number two, it’s never too late. ⁓

clients in our community who are in their late seventies. Like they’re crushing life. They’re crushing it. It’s never too late. that is something that we tell ourselves when we feel like giving up.

When we look around and we compare our step one to someone else’s step ten thousand and go, everyone else seems to be, you know, doing this or this. And it’s like, one, that’s comparison, and you just can’t compare. Right? ⁓ perhaps they’re not business consultants. Perhaps they need that volume. ⁓ we cannot compare. So I would just encourage put some blinders on when it comes to that, because you cannot compare things that aren’t comparable. It’s like, you know, do I like this Kiwi or do I like

Rice. It’s like they’re not even the same thing, not even in the same category. We cannot compare those two things. and then it’s like, are you starting from too far behind? No, you’re not behind. I don’t know why you think that. Like, who has told you that you were behind? You are not behind. You’re exactly where you should be. You have 1400 LinkedIn connections. You’re a business consultant. You can’t have 1,400 clients. You probably could only have 14 clients. You are not too far behind.

RORY (31:30)
I think a big thing people need to understand in here is that the number of followers that you have is not a demonstration of the level of value you can provide. And in many ways, the larger the audience you have, the more obligated you are to serve them and to be available to like nurture that community, which means the the less available you are to work with any small number of those people in a very deep way. When we hire people to do various services for us personally.

For the business. We don’t look at how many followers does this person have at all. It’s not even in our consideration of do we hire them. We do look at: is it relevant? Is it up to date? And is their content worthwhile? Is it useful? Is it valuable? Are they demonstrating that they are an expert at the thing that we are considering hiring them for? And I just want to ask All of your clients are doing the same thing.

AJ (32:28)
And I want to add two other things to that to what we said because we’re not talking about hiring people. We’re talking about hiring vendors. ⁓ the two number one things that we also vet is were they referred to us?

Did someone else recommend them who has used them and can vouch for them? ⁓ and then two, it’s like, do they have a list of testimonials that prove that they’re really good at the thing they say they can do? Right. And it’s like, one, can I go and validate those testimonials? Are these real humans with a first and last name? Like are they videos? and it’s like I weird, we’re just living in an an era right now where Amanda P says, I’m like, Who’s Amanda P? Like, is she a real person? Like, I I I need to know. I need to see her picture. I wanna know her last name is, I wanna know where she works.

I need to go validate this because that is an like if you weren’t referred to me, it’s like this is how I’m proving that you’re trustworthy. Is I’m basing the experience of someone else who’s hired you. And if it’s just partial human, it’s like I it’s not enough for me. Right? It’s not enough. So I think those two things in addition to everything you said are also really important when we’re looking at these things. It is not follower count though. That’s not even a piece of consideration.

RORY (33:33)
And and and to me, testimonials, what we’re really looking for is sample work. Yeah. We want to see a sample of what you’ve done and a testimonial, depending on what trait you’re in. Like, you know, if you’re a videographer or photographer, I should just be able to see a portfolio. When you’re a consultant, it’s a little bit tougher to see your sample work. And so testimonials is the closest thing to that. But we’re trying to go, can you create the thing that I’m considering hiring you for? Point blank. That is that is the question. But it’s not about how many followers you have. The only

Person who’s concerned about that is you. And that is a fear living in your own head. It’s false evidence appearing real. It’s a figment of your imagination. Do not let you do not let it hold you back. Doesn’t mean you shouldn’t create quality content and demonstrate your expertise, but do not let the number of followers be the reason why you can’t grow your personal brand and turn your reputation into a massive pile of revenue. That’s right. All right.

AJ (34:26)
Preach it.

RORY (34:28)
So, if you have a small audience and you want to make a big amount of money from a small audience, which by the way, arguably we are some of the best in the world at making a lot of money from a smaller audience. We don’t have a huge audience, and much of our audience has only grown here in the last couple of years, really. ⁓ so if you are that person or if you know somebody who has a real expertise and a real passion for helping people and a real mission-driven, ⁓ you know, sort of purpose and stance in life, make sure you share this episode with them and then let them.

know they can request a call with us at freebrandcall.com forward slash podcast and we’ll do the first call for free to understand where they’re at. We’ll show you our entire four phase journey and we’ll create a custom plan for exactly what steps you need to take next, whether you work with us or you don’t.

⁓ and for the rest of you, please ⁓ thank you for tuning in to the podcast. Please rate and review this show wherever you listen or watch. Make sure you hit subscribe, follow, ⁓ and share. And we’ll catch you next time on the wealthy and well-known podcast.

Now, before you go binge watch all the rest of our episodes, we want you to know we’re committed to serving you as an individual in a much deeper way.

AJ (35:43)
And we actually mean that. We don’t have to make these episodes. This is something we want to do to serve the person who’s really listening. And the first way that you can do that is to actually subscribe, to tune in and to learn more on every episode that goes live.

WWK Ep 026: 100,000 Followers or 1,000 Emails? The Truth About What Actually Grows Your Business

WATCH THE INTERVIEW LISTEN TO THE EPISODE BELOW A big following feels impressive, but it does not automatically create trust, leads, or revenue. In this episode of The Wealthy and Well-Known Podcast, Rory and AJ break down one of the most common traps in personal branding: assuming that more followers means more business. They unpack why neither followers nor […]

WWK Ep 025: The Real Secret to Becoming Wealthy & Well-Known

RORY (00:00)
you are the definition of well-known like in your space in your communities and that’s what I want people to see is to go like everybody is modeling after like these people with a bunch of followers but like even the people with a bunch of followers the equity they create is their offline relationships and like

AJ (00:17)
Way to save it, Rory. Just trying to come back here. How have I become so unwell known?

RORY (00:20)
Yes, so tell us.

Yeah, how have you become well-paid without knowing anybody and anybody knowing you?

AJ (00:28)
Wow,

Alright guys, time to talk about some real truth. Most of us have been told and most of us have believed a lie about what fame really is. And we’re gonna share some real…

truth about fame and what really matters when it comes to building your personal brand. See what most of us think is that becoming famous means going viral and having a huge social media following and being known by the wider world. But what we want to do is break it down and talk about micro fame, how to become famous to your audience, how do you become famous in your small niche and why that matters more today than ever before.

All right, Rory, I’m going to kick us off with a question about…

⁓ Please welcome my co-host, the co-founder of Brand Builders Group, my best friend, my husband, New York Times best-selling author, Hall of Fame speaker, Rory Vada.

RORY (01:38)
joking

on another episode that she always always introduce her and she always forgets to introduce me she’s just like alright let’s get into it okay anyways now that that’s Eddie out of the way let’s get into it micro fame strategy love this conversation

AJ (01:53)
And really what I talk about is like how to become famous to your audience. And I think that’s the part about becoming well known that people often just misconstrue. They’re like, this whole personal branding thing, it’s about ego and vanity to popularity contest. And it’s like, no, it’s not. It’s about being known to the audience.

you want to serve, right? So it’s becoming famous in your niche, famous to your audience. And that is important.

Because if you have something that really serves that audience, then you owe it to them to let them know that you exist. Right? So it’s not how do you become like Mr. Pitbull worldwide over there. It’s not being the rock Dwayne Johnson, but it’s how do you become famous in your niche? So let’s talk about that. How do you do that? How do you become well known to the person that you want to be known by?

RORY (02:52)
Yeah, I can tell you a strategy that I’ve never said out loud before about how to develop micro fame and it’s not something that people talk about a lot or expect to hear.

AJ (03:02)
Well,

you’ve been holding out on us.

RORY (03:04)
I’ve never

had this question posed in this way, but I actually, you one of the questions on our sheet here is how do you get podcast invitations when you’re not famous yet? And I kind of consider myself a master of that. Like I have gotten on many of the biggest podcasts in the world and like am so far away from famous or like what most of the other guests are. And that question and the way you tee this up made me think about, huh, how have we really done this? And here’s a strategy that you’ve you’ve never heard before. And I’ve never talked about this.

figure out in any niche there’s like 15 people that really matter a lot. there’s 15, like if you just said who are the 15 people that matter most in my space and then ask yourself how could I be extraordinarily valuable to those 15 people?

And if you actually did that, which is what we have done, right? We figured out these are the people who are very important in our space, very influential. Rather than trying to go viral reaching millions, we said, how can we become extraordinarily valuable to these 15 people?

AJ (04:09)
Influen.

RORY (04:23)
and we did that and they became the gateway to other people. And I think that that strategy is not one that is just unique to us. think that that is how you create micro fame is you figure out who are the most influential people. It’s a small group. And rather than shotgunning to try to go viral and reach the whole world, there’s a small number of people in any sort of niche or industry or vertical.

that really are the people who matter. And if you can figure out how to be extraordinarily valuable to them, then you’ll ride in their wake and they will take you everywhere you want to go.

AJ (05:00)
So I love that and I think that is it’s like, how can you provide use resources? How can you be of service to someone else? Like what have you learned? What have you gained? What do you have that you can give to someone else to build a relationship, right? So give us some ideas. Like for someone who’s out there going, love that, I could do that. How do I do that? What would you say?

RORY (05:24)
Let’s talk about how not to do it. Okay, here’s what most people do is they go, these are the 15 people that are that matter in my space. And they think about how could I get on their show? How could I get on their stage? How could I get they think about what they could get? That’s the wrong question. The whole mindset has to be what can I give? How can I be useful? Is it’s it’s redirecting your reticular activating system in the opposite of how everybody else

AJ (05:38)
not the give.

No expectations

of anything in return, no monetary compensation. It’s just how can I be of use?

RORY (05:57)
right. Yeah. we actually in inside of our ⁓ pressure free persuasion course, we we teach that sales starts with relationships. I’ve never heard anyone else talk about sales, that relationships is actually the first part of our cycle of selling, we call it the service centered sale selling cycle. And you go service centered sales cycle.

AJ (06:17)
a lot of us is service.

Again, service centered

selling cycle. Yeah, there we go.

RORY (06:28)
And, and we have something that’s just called like the relational equity matrix. And we go, okay, what are all the things you can do? So one is, you can give people encouragement, you can send people referrals, you can send people recommended vendors, you can help them hire people, you can ⁓ advise them on some portion of their business, you can send them gifts, you can create experiences for them, you can volunteer for them. Like there’s

all of these things that you can do for people that add value to them. And it’s not just money. you you know, if you have money, some of it is right, like, you know, a lot of if you’re trying to get to really, really successful people, it’s like, don’t and you have money, donate money to their foundation, volunteer to be on their board, but like,

the way to get to people is not by saying what can I do for you or what can I get from you? It’s what can I do for you? And it’s really just being open to what do they need? ⁓ You know, I use the story of Gretchen Rubin a lot who’s not a brand builders group client. And, you know, has over the years become more and more of a friend. But all I did was wait for when she had a book launch, reached out to her, pitched her to be on my podcast. And I said, Hey,

I don’t have a huge podcast, but I know a lot of podcasters. And if you come on my show and I get a feel for what you’re looking for, I will personally go out and pitch you to like 20 shows. And she did that and I did that and we became friends. it was a slow been a slow relationship over the years. But those are the kinds of things it’s not what can I get, it’s what can I give? That’s good. And there’s lots of different things you can give people.

even if you can’t give them an audience because you don’t have an audience, there’s other things you have that you can give.

AJ (08:15)
Yeah, everyone has something. Definitely. It’s just how do you position that in the best service to the person you’re trying to build a relationship with.

RORY (08:23)
And it

starts by doing something that you actually do really, really well. It’s listening by watching. It’s not just listening, like listening to what they say, you watch what they’re involved with, you watch what they’re interested in, you watch what they’re doing, and you sort of anticipate the needs that they have. Because you can’t ask them, what do you need, then you’re just creating work for them to do.

AJ (08:50)
I would tell you like to that, ⁓ and I love that you should probably formalize that strategy and share it more often. That’s really good. One of the things that I have become really focused and intentional about doing is every single time I meet someone as they’re talking, my number one objective is to pinpoint who I can introduce them to. Like it doesn’t matter how long I’ve known you, how long I’ve talked to you, it could be five minutes or five hours. ⁓

Every conversation is going to end with, have someone you should meet. You said something that made me think about this. Let me know if you’d like an introduction. I do that no matter what to every client, every prospect, every friend, every stranger. Like if you’re engaged with me, my number one goal is who can I connect you to? I am very intentionally trying to become a connector in every single conversation. I just think that’s one of the most

value-ridden things I can provide is valuable connection.

RORY (09:53)
And it’s mutually valuable to both of them and valuable to you as a byproduct.

AJ (09:57)
But it’s

also something that I’m intentionally wanting to become known for. And so I’m very intentional about everywhere I go. like, want people to know that they can come to me for connections and referrals and resources. Like, I want to be known as the person to go to if you’re looking for blank kind of connection. And I think that’s just that. And I share that only because anyone can do it.

Like anyone can do that. You don’t have to have some like Navy SEAL expertise or like some like secret skill set. Anyone can become a master connector.

RORY (10:35)
Totally. And I’ve always been a big believer. You know, one of my favorite quotes is that Mark Twain quote that says every man is my superior in some way. Related to that, I’ve always thought to myself, everybody is a somebody somewhere. Yeah, right. Like, everyone has a hookup or a connection to something somewhere. And if you can figure out what does everybody have the like hookup to the connection, and then other people need that and vice versa.

AJ (10:52)
something to

RORY (11:02)
It’s just like you become this this facilitator, this conduit, and the value rubs off on you as you create all of these connections. ⁓

AJ (11:11)
I

love that just for a second like for those of you who are going well, I don’t know anybody like I Don’t have anything I could offer. It’s like first of all, that’s a terribly limiting mindset So whoever is listening who’s already saying that as you’re listening driving down the road is like stop that right now But it’s like I literally was thinking about like I have a person to go to I’m like Hey, who’s selling raw milk out of their trunk? Like where we’re gonna find it or you know, like it doesn’t matter like what it is It’s like a lot of friend who does that I have a friend who sells raw milk or I have a friend who has fresh

or you know I have a friend who whatever it’s like no matter what it is so it doesn’t matter what the thing is or what your socioeconomic status is everybody knows somebody somewhere right and so it’s like really try to train your brain on like how can I just become a resource but that that only works if you’re actually listening like if you’re actually

listening. Like I was in a conversation earlier this week with a couple of other parents who homeschool their kids and our kids are homeschooled and I always have to clarify I am not a homeschooler because some people will hear that and think I am, I am not. I’m not equipped for that amazing role but our kids are homeschooled. They go to a homeschool academy and so they were talking about well how did you do that and how did you get into that and I was like ⁓ let me tell you and like I had like three or four like teed up resources had nothing to do with work. It was all about homeschool and I’m like well this

is where we, you know, register with and this is how we did this and this is who I go to do the fat for that. It doesn’t matter what it is, right? It’s like whatever is whatever it is, have your list, be a resource, but you got to listen for it. Whatever it is.

RORY (12:46)
Yeah, whatever you’re into. That’s

a good transition to this. This question, I think is powerful. And it is what’s the difference between being well known and being well paid? ⁓ And how do I achieve both? But let’s start with the first part of the question of what’s the difference between being well known and well paid? Do you have to be well known to be well paid?

And I’m curious your thoughts on this because you’ve become well paid over the years and not you’re not necessarily the most famous person. So that’s my introduction.

AJ (13:20)
So rude.

She knows no one and no one knows her.

RORY (13:27)
you know everybody here’s the thing is you are the definition of well-known like in your space in your communities and that’s what I want people to see is to go like everybody is modeling after like these people with a bunch of followers but like even the people with a bunch of followers the equity they create is their offline relationships and like

AJ (13:49)
Way to save it, Rory. Just trying to come back here. How have I become so unwell known?

RORY (13:52)
Yes, so tell us.

Yeah, how have you become well-paid without knowing anybody and anybody knowing you?

AJ (14:02)
Wow, actually was gonna start with both of those things are really relative. Like what is well known? What is well paid? I think that’s all super relative based on who you’re talking to, right? Like yeah, if you compare me to Mel Robbins, I’m very unknown comparatively speaking, but if you compare me to, you know,

RORY (14:10)
and what is well paid.

AJ (14:27)
Sally Jo down the street, I’m probably fairly well known. So I think it’s all relative. I think that the balance and all of that is don’t compare yourself to anyone else. And I think that’s probably why I’ve always been fairly well paid, as I don’t really compare myself too much to other people. I don’t really care what they’re doing. I never really have, you know, that’s a gift I’ve been given. ⁓

RORY (14:51)
You have a

zero impressibility score. Other than Dolly Parton, there’s nobody in the world that impresses you.

AJ (14:58)
She’s impressive, I’m not gonna lie, she’s impressive. ⁓ But I do really think it comes down to this whole idea of being well known. And what I love about the conversation today is I don’t need to be well known by a lot of people, I need to be well known by my people. And that all starts with knowing who my people are.

⁓ I go into some, know, like Rory very much represents like the marketing side, like the digital marketing side of BBG. you know, he’s always trying to get me to go to like these different events with him with all these very well-known like influencer and, you know, and I’m like, that’s not my people. Those are your people. Like I don’t fit there.

Like I try and I’m like, they’re talking all this stuff and I just glaze over. I don’t know, I got dozed off, blacked out. It’s not my thing. And what I have been really okay with is like, I know my people. And I’m pretty well known in the entrepreneur crowd of our town because I make an effort to be so.

Right? I’m involved in the entrepreneur organization. I do networking lunches with them. I host dinners for them. I help be on boards with them. It’s like, I’m trying to be well-known in this space where I want to be well-known. And it’s not a huge space. It’s a very niche space in my town. ⁓ So it’s small.

but that’s where I want to be known. And so that’s where I focus my time and attention. And I think that’s what it means to be well known is you just have to be very clear on who do I want to be known by and where are they? And you got to show up.

RORY (16:32)
Yeah, the other thing is you’re talking this ties back to what we were saying earlier is I’m realizing, ironically, one of the best ways to become well known.

is to help other people meet each other. And when you help other people meet each other, you get caught in the crossfire. Like going back to my Gretchen Rubin story, right? It’s like Gretchen Rubin would never know who I am today. If I had never introduced her to all these people and introduced her to this like mastermind that I’m in that now she’s a part of, right? And it’s like now

I am somebody to her. And she would recognize me not because of my accomplishments and my audience and you know, like, I mean, she sold so many books compared to how many books I’ve sold or whatever, right. But it’s like I’m known to her because I helped her know other people. And I think the same is true about wealth, right? It’s like, if you want to help other people, if you want to get wealthy, help other people get wealthy. One of my favorite quotes I heard recently was billionaires are just people who create millionaires.

AJ (17:31)
Yeah,

I love that.

RORY (17:32)
So good. Yeah.

And so true, right? And it’s like, everyone’s approaching it. This whole conversation is about flipping this switch from going, how do I get and how do I become to how do I give and how do I help others become? And the irony is that when you focus on how do I give and help others become, you get when you focus on how do I get and how do I become you don’t get. And that is just like super ironic.

AJ (18:00)
Yeah. And the thing that we can all give is introductions and connections. It doesn’t matter. And so I guess back to how do you become well known? It’s one, it’s relative, right? Don’t compare. But most importantly, it’s like, you got to know who you want to be well known and you have to know where they gather. And then you have to show up consistently. Right. And so I think that’s, that is how you become well known in a niche space, right? Famous in your space. Now on the other part of well paid,

Again relative, right? ⁓ It’s all relative. So once don’t compare whatever well-paid is to you whatever well-known is to you a lot of you are trying to build local presence own it be good with it Some of you are just like I would just like it’s my dream to make six figures Awesome, don’t compare yourself to someone trying to make eight figures. Don’t do it. It’s not worth it So just stay in your lane put some blinders on and be like this is my calling This is my path my race. You can only run your race

You cannot run someone else’s with all of that said, ⁓ how to become well paid. You just said that awesome quote is that the billionaires are just people who make millionaires. heard another quote here recently, similar to that, that I’ve really latched onto is that seven figure earners, seven figure earners master the basics that six figure earners are too advanced to do. And I’ve really hung on to that of like,

No, seven-figure earners are just people who are not above doing the basics and the fundamentals. They are masters of the basics that six-figure earners are too advanced to do. And I think that’s so good and it’s so wise and a great reminder to all of us is that making money is not hard. It’s a numbers game. And it requires you to become a master of the basics, which is

work the numbers.

RORY (19:59)
Literally, I think even us right? We’ve had multiple eight figure ventures now at this this point three ⁓ and the You and I spend our time going how do we get more calls on the calendar? How do we renew more customers?

AJ (20:19)
Same conversation.

RORY (20:20)
how do we get more referrals? And even on our financial calls, it’s like we’re just trying to get our our PNL tight and go like get it accurate and go are these benchmarks in place? And what is it compared to our budget? And what is it over prior year? Like the most fundamental I had somebody reach out to me, a friend of ours that we you know, we haven’t seen for a few years. And he reached out to me with the most beautiful question. And this is someone who doesn’t earn a lot of money.

AJ (20:35)
more.

RORY (20:50)
It was a really beautiful question and I was honored that he reached out. don’t even know if I told you this, but he has a son and he’s a single dad and he said, if I could just save up $5,000 for my son, Rory, I know you know this stuff, tell me what to do with it so that he could have money when he’s grown up. Right? And this is like a friend of ours that doesn’t have a hard work. You know who I’m talking about?

AJ (21:14)
I know exactly your time.

RORY (21:16)
I was like, first of all, such a beautiful question to go, this dad is trying to change the legacy of his family. He’s trying to do something for his son. And he is going, I want my son to have a better life than I do, or a different life than I have. Next, I was totally honored that he reached out to me. just like, don’t know, I haven’t talked to this guy in a couple years. And I was like,

I am so flattered and honored that you had asked me and that you think I would actually have some type of answer. And then I definitely responded with a very thorough but simple answer as I said, Hey, Jane, I don’t do crazy investments. We don’t own like a whole bunch of stuff. We do growth stock mutual funds and we invest early and I said if you just take $5,000 and you put this in a simple IRA,

and you don’t try to gamble and make bazillions and you just let because of your son’s age he’s like five years old if it grew at eight percent for 60 years it would be worth over five hundred thousand dollars and that was powerful and and also you know i hope the lesson in for him was like it’s simple like it’s it’s it’s simple stuff

Most people are like, how do I get rich quick? How do I say I want want crypto I want so I want to I want to own 27 companies I need to invest in 47 different and I want I want apartment complexes I want fix and flip and I all this stuff and it’s like no we’re like really boring with our or you’re awesomely boring and and and I also think back you know a lot of my friends that when we started brand builders group which it was our you know a new endeavor at the time

AJ (22:52)
awesomely awesomely boring

RORY (23:07)
A lot of them go, I can’t believe how fast you’ve grown. And they’re like, I remember when you talked about 1000 messengers when you started the company. And like, you actually are still doing the thing like we, we haven’t even gotten there yet. And but we haven’t changed direction. Like it’s been the thing. It’s, it’s totally the fundamental.

AJ (23:26)
It

is the fundamentals. It’s not the sexy thing that everyone wants to talk about, but it’s becoming a master of the basics. And to be well paid, it’s like, you got to work the numbers. Right? It really is a work the numbers. It’s just, you don’t, and that’s the beautiful thing about it is like, you don’t have to be a masterful marketer or a masterful salesperson. You just got to work the numbers and let the ratios fall out. And the more you do it, the better you get.

It’s kind of a great thing. I would say the only thing that has made me a pretty good salesperson over the years is like, I’m just going to outlast everybody else. My follow-up game is strong. My organization game, my calendar game is strong. It’s like, I’m just going to outlast everyone else. That just gets bored and moves on. It’s master the fundamentals and work the numbers.

RORY (24:18)
Another thing on this monetization strategy is the David and Goliath. And ⁓ everyone knows the story of David and Goliath, but also Malcolm Gladwell wrote a book called David and Goliath. And the argument that Malcolm Gladwell makes in that book, and it’s a fascinating book as is everything he writes, is that we all think that David had this miraculous moment where he overcame the giant. ⁓

there’s an argument for that for sure, and God was with David, but… And what Malcolm, the argument he makes is he says, yeah, but David also had an advantage. This guy was huge and was weighed down by all of this armor. David was nimble and quick, and he had spent his young life fighting lions with a slingshot. this wasn’t just like a random lucky shot. He had spent his life preparing, and this particular set of circumstances worked to his advantage.

AJ (24:49)
But God equipped David, prepared David.

RORY (25:14)
The reason I point that out, a lot of people listening that don’t have huge followings, they think they’re at a disadvantage of like, huh, I’m not famous enough, no one is gonna buy from me, et cetera. ⁓ Or they think I’m new to entrepreneurship, how am I ever gonna compete with people who’ve been doing this for 20 years? And what you don’t realize is that the earlier you are, you have an advantage. And the advantage is that you have more time.

Right? When you’re you either have time or you have money. And you always know which one it is because if you don’t if you don’t have have time if you have if you don’t have money, then that means you have time or you’re not spending your time right. But when you’re starting out, you can offer a level of service that is intimate and up close and personal that is worth way more money to fewer people. It’s easier to sell

higher dollar offers to fewer people who pay you more for more attention. That is the fastest path to a lot of money. People who have huge audiences and huge teams, they can’t offer that level of service because they don’t have that much time available because they’re busy managing their team and managing the empire and all this stuff. So what you think is a disadvantage actually is an advantage. It’s like David being small and nimble and quick. And when you’re new to this business, here’s the other thing.

you can charge less, right? Like, people who are famous and have a lot of demand, they can’t sell one on one coaching for a low dollar amount because the demand is so high, they have to charge more because they don’t have that much time available. You can what you have the advantage of when you’re just starting out is supply, you have lots of supply. Now demand is low and supply is high, which means the price is low. That’s an advantage. You can go to the market,

and sell at a lower price, which is what you should do. And then you raise your prices over time. So what feels like a disadvantage of not being famous actually totally is. What feels like a disadvantage of being new as an entrepreneur actually is a tremendous advantage. You just got to change the mindset and the limiting beliefs that are there.

AJ (27:31)
Yeah, I love that. All right, well, this is a good transition into our community question. All right, Rory, tell us what this section is all about and what’s the question of the day.

RORY (27:39)
Community questions. So this

is great, right? So at Brand Builders Group, we have members that are in part of our coaching program that we foster relationship and help them build their business. And inside of our actual portal, they can write in questions to me and AJ and other members vote up the questions. And then the top ones we pick here for the show. So this one comes from Michelle. It says I am a nutritionist who works specifically with women over 40 going through perimenopause.

I know exactly who I serve and I love the work, but there are so many health and wellness influencers out there that I feel completely invisible. How do I break through and become the go-to name for my exact client without competing with people who have 10 times my following and 100 times my budget? What a perfect question for what we’ve just been talking about.

AJ (28:33)
I was

just thinking the same thing. That’s just the perfect question for you. Women over 40 going through peri-man-pause. Can you not relate to that? Exactly. I love this question. It’s like, how do I break through and become the go-to name for my exact clients? So what I love about this is that, knowing what you do and who you are, I bet you don’t need thousands of clients. I bet you couldn’t even handle hundreds of clients. I bet

you’re looking for dozens of Fast, bet. So how do you become the go-to name for your exact client?

RORY (29:05)
if even doesn’t.

AJ (29:11)
Assuming you have some clients, it’s to double down on those clients. It is to give them a life changing experience and then ask them to refer you to their friends. And that’s the unique thing about your exact business, Michelle, is that women over 40 going through perimenopause, they know other women who are over 40 going through perimenopause because we’re all talking about it. That’s for sure. Everybody’s talking about it, right? So you can find them. You know where they are, right? And so it’s like one, it’s like, don’t forget the best

client you have is or the best client to get is the one that you already have. So use those people to get referrals and get referred but don’t just ask for a referral be like hey I know this is a hot topic with everyone I’d love to host a lunch. If you would just invite five friends I would love to do a free luncheon, a free webinar.

It’s like just ask every single one of your clients. Like if you would invite five of your best friends who are going through the exact same thing, you are, I’d to take everyone to coffee. I’d love to host a lunch. I’ll do a virtual webinar, whatever it is. If you have local clients, great. If they’re, if they’re out of town, fine, do it virtually, but just start going like, I just want to meet these people in person. I want to look them in the eye. I want to learn what their issues are. And I want to let them know that there’s a better way and start with the clients that you have. Do coffees, do luncheons, do happy hours, do

Saturday morning workouts and ask people to invite people to come with them, your clients, invite their friends. We’re all talking about, we all know who each other are. That’s where I would start. Then the next thing that I would do, because you don’t need 10 times the following and a hundred times the budget, as I’d start going to every single person who services these people who are over 40 going through perimenopause, I’d build relationships. I’d start with my OBGYN, right? I’d start with my physician.

I would start with every single person that serves me as a 42 year old woman, not yet going through perimenopause, but like I would start there and it’s like, these are all the people that serve me. I’m going to start building relationships with people because I know they have more people like me, right? I know they know more people like me. And I’m going to just take that grassroots local referral word of mouth marketing because I serve my clients so well. It’s an easy yes, because I’m giving them life changing results.

It’s an easy yes to invite other people into something for free to learn about what I do. That’s what I would do if I were you.

RORY (31:36)
Yes, this so good. And I have to come back here to the story of David and Goliath in the Bible. There is one of the…if you read Scripture on this story, it is going how David…they tried to suit David up in armor, and he said, I can’t wear this armor.

He was, David was smart enough to know or spirit-led enough to know that he couldn’t compete with Goliath at his own game, size versus size. David was smart enough to say, I’m going to embrace my strengths and the things that God’s given me and I’m going to use those tools, a slingshot and no armor. And small entrepreneurs need to do the same thing. You might not be able to compete on size of audience. What you can compete on is intimacy and access to the clients.

serve a smaller group of clients in a deeper way. There’s, you know, you can make $100,000 by selling 1000 people $100 product, you got to have a big audience to sell 1000 people $100 product. The other way you can make $100,000 is to sell 10 people a $10,000 product. And it’s way easier to do that and serve a small group of 10 10 people in a very, very deep way.

That’s how I’d be thinking I’d be doing exactly the things that you.

AJ (32:53)
said. Yeah. And if you’re out there listening and you’re going, well, how do I take all this information and apply it to what I’m building to my audience, to my business, then honestly, we would just really encourage you to take us up on our free call offer. ⁓ One of our team members at Brandbender’s group will sit down with you for a one hour free strategy call to talk about what you got going on, how we can help. And even if we’re not a fit with you, give you some tips and advice and some struck an instruction to keep you on the right

path. if you want to take us up on that, ⁓ we would encourage you to go to freebraincall.com forward slash podcast.

freebrandcall.com forward slash podcast and grab a call with someone on our team so that you can talk through how can you take some of these ideas and apply them to help you grow your business and serve the audience that you’re meant to serve. Now, we’d also love it if you would share this episode. So if you’re not ready for that call, but you’re all like, wow, this was helpful. I have more friends who need to hear this, then please share this, like it, leave us a review on whatever platform you listen to it.

We would so appreciate it. And most importantly, we invite you to come back and listen to another episode the next time on the Wealthy and Well-Known Podcast. We’ll see you later, y’all.

listen up. You do not need the whole internet to know your name.

RORY (34:17)
just the ones who are in your wonderfully weird little corner of it.

WWK Ep 024: Why Less Qualified People Make More Money Than Experts

Rory (00:00)
It’s one of the things that breaks my heart and makes me so angry about the world that we live in today is that I think a lot of the most under qualified people are getting the most attention and the most revenue and I don’t think that’s fair. But whether I like it or not, it is what it is. So we’re going to teach about how to

AJ (00:17)
That’s interesting because

I don’t have that same disdain that you do at all. don’t.

Rory (00:28)
Here is something uncomfortable that I’ve learned that you probably aren’t going to like. It’s painful to hear this, but customers don’t buy from you because of your credentials.

This is one of the most frustrating things that we hear time and time again from mission driven messengers. Why am I more qualified than other people out in the marketplace, but I don’t seem to have as much traction. That’s what we’re going to talk about on today’s episode is how to convert your credentials into customers and why they don’t convert just by themselves. So if you are someone who is qualified to build a great personal brand, but you feel sometimes like a little bit of the world’s best kept secret, we’re going to unblock that for

you here on the show. Joined by my business partner, best friend, CEO of Brand Builders Group, co founder, co author, New York Times bestselling author.

AJ (01:17)
You’re

always so nice about introducing me and I always forget to Like as you were doing that I’m like I always forget I just roll into the conversation

Rory (01:21)
Yeah, you never introduced me.

That’s how you are. You’re like, all right, let’s get down to business.

AJ (01:33)
business.

Yeah, I’m like, let’s get on with the conversation. Today. So yeah, so here’s I think this is a good question, because I think that we’ll have similar, but varying responses. Yeah, of why don’t credentials actually help you grow your personal brand? Because I think we spend so much time just as professionals, of trying to get that next certification, right? Get that next credential, get those next three letters behind your name. And it’s like at the end of the day, that

Rory (01:35)
What is our conversation?

AJ (02:03)
doesn’t really necessarily move the needle. Why not?

Rory (02:09)
The answer I would say to why that doesn’t matter is because people don’t buy you. They buy them. Right. They’re not buying really who you are. They’re buying what they want. They’re buying their dream. They’re buying their transformation. So so it’s it’s not I think people who are chronic overachievers and academics. OK. Right here you got two people who did really well in school. Right. I was I was a study bug as was AJ.

AJ (02:34)
High School Valac

Tutorian over there.

Rory (02:36)
I was high school valedictorian of a very small school. I beat the other guy. ⁓ We had 90 people in our class. you know, it was, it was something, but I think those of us that value traditional academia and research and credentials and things like that, we tend to assume that other people will not only value them, but that they will buy because of them and pay more because of them. And it’s just not true. People will pay whoever is available.

AJ (02:57)
them.

Rory (03:06)
whoever is accessible and whoever they think can help them get a result. And I’m not saying I like it. In fact, I’m saying I hate it. It’s one of the things that breaks my heart and makes me so angry about the world that we live in today is that I think a lot of the most under qualified people are getting the most attention and the most revenue and I don’t think that’s fair. But whether I like it or not, it is what it is. So we’re going to teach about how to

AJ (03:33)
That’s interesting because

I don’t have that same disdain that you do at all. don’t. ⁓ I think that it’s really important. It’s really valuable, specifically in some professions. There are some industries, some professions where that does hold more clout and more weight and I would expect for you to charge more and that would be justified. ⁓ But I think for a lot of people, they’re going, no, I just want to know that you’ve done the thing.

Not that you’ve studied the thing, learned about the thing, researched the thing, like reported on the thing. I want to know you’ve done the thing. And I think a lot about like, even as we do a lot of interviewing and recruiting at Brandbuilders group, I have literally stopped looking at education. I don’t know if that’s good or bad. Sorry to admit it here. I don’t care what your GPA is.

I don’t care where you went to school, don’t even care what your degree is. I want to know what was the last five years of your work experience.

Rory (04:33)
Right. Have you done the thing? Yeah.

Well, and that to me is OK. Right. And that’s where to me, I think that’s an important conversation is where does real credibility come from.

AJ (04:42)
But to the point, right? It’s like, yes and, right? It’s like, it’s great when we go and we do all of that academic. We were talking about this the other day.

Rory (04:51)
There is somewhere that credentials matters a lot, a lot, a lot.

AJ (04:54)
Yes, but we were also talking about the other day of, you know, we have some friends that we know in our life who were like, a, students, valedictorian, top of their class and love them to death, but can’t think for themselves. It’s like literally if it wasn’t in a book, if they couldn’t follow the exact process for it, like they can’t think for themselves.

Rory (05:18)
They can memorize information, but they can’t critique.

AJ (05:21)
It

cannot, it will not transfer to real life. There’s not a system for that. There’s not a process for that. There’s not an SOP for that. I don’t have a one pager for that. Like I just need you to go figure it out and they cannot do it. And so I think there’s, there’s some of that, that, you know, I think academia can almost, almost drive the natural creativity out of us that has starting to really kind of expose itself. It’s like, well, yeah, you’ve

researched and taught all the things, but you’ve never actually done the thing. Now that’s different for the person who has researched it and done it. So just, want to make a clarification that it’s not saying getting your MBA, master’s, PhD is an important and valuable. I really do think in a lot of places it matters a lot. And in other places it doesn’t. So it’s knowing the difference of the two. So if I would actually just take a side, you know, like a master’s MBA or PhD for a second.

And what I find more people are doing or going like, where can I get this next certification? And will this next thing help me do this? And it’s, that’s the part where I’m like, you are spending your time in the wrong areas. You’re trying to go get certified in something, somehow thinking some letters behind your name is going to get you business instead of actually doing the sales work that needs to be done. It’s creative avoidance in a regard. It’s trying to figure out, Hey, is there some sort of way I don’t have to go make the sales calls or have the conversations.

and can I just go learn some stuff and hopefully people will find me.

Rory (06:51)
the part I think where you know you say disdain it’s like I don’t have heartburn with somebody who has done the thing getting the business I actually love that even more than the academia and the research and I go like to me all you need to be credible is that you’ve actually done the thing yeah your most powerfully positioned to serve the person you once were you conquered the challenge you walked the path you solved the problem you triumped over the tragedy you overcame the obstacle to me that is

is the ultimate level playing field of what deserves credibility. I don’t mind when that person wins. What I don’t love is when the best marketer wins without either the credibility, without either the academic, what I’m saying is academic credibility or the life experience. And that’s what I’m seeing a lot today.

AJ (07:29)
without,

breaks

my heart. That’s frustrating. That’s annoying. But yes, yeah, I was thinking about one of our clients that we were talking to earlier this week, and she has her PhD in seismot…

Rory (07:52)
seismology

she’s an earthquake

AJ (07:54)
No, I’m not

a PhD in this. But yeah, she’s an earthquake engineer. And I’m like, yeah, I need you to have a PhD. Yeah, I really want you what’s the next class you can take? Yeah, I really want you to make sure that, you know, architectural foundations are secure and high earthquake prone areas. Like I need you to have a PhD. Like that’s important. But then in other areas, like to your point where it’s the person who’s just

you know, marketing that they’ve done the thing, they haven’t done the thing, haven’t studied the thing, they have no credentials. And when they’re winning, that’s, that’s, that’s giving us all a little bit of a bad rep.

Rory (08:31)
Well, and I think, you know, don’t hear what we’re not saying. We’re not saying that credentials aren’t important in particularly one area. If you stay tuned, we’ll talk about where credentials really do matter. So we’ll get to that. But

what we are saying is that the people who are winning today aren’t the smartest, they’re not the most qualified, they’re not even the most experienced, they are the best marketers. And that it comes down to marketing and sales and those, and in some ways that is just doing the thing. Like when you’re building an entrepreneur, that’s what it means to be an entrepreneur. One of the things I’ve been saying a lot like in the last year is that creators favorite form of creative avoidance is to create. Creators favorite form of creative avoidance is to create.

is an academics favorite form of creative avoidance is to study, like to study stuff, to learn the thing and not actually, you know, do the marketing and sales. And so I think what we want to talk about is why first, so let’s start there. So why doesn’t credentials equal customers? What do you think?

AJ (09:18)
the

Genuine believe that credentials don’t equal customers because true experts are spending all of their time, money, energy, and resources actually honing their craft and not telling anyone about what they do. I believe it really does sit on the individual where they are so consumed with the next research and studying and analytics and diving into case studies. And they’re so busy doing the thing that they have never looked up and actually told anyone about the expertise they have.

I think that real true experts, what we’re actually talking about are the world’s best kept secrets because they have not had the desire or the reason to equally study sales and marketing. They have an amazing passion for a thing and it does not include the business components of the thing.

Rory (10:34)
is interesting because we have an explosion in our community of like doctors, like lawyers, professional advisors who spent their career doing the thing. And I think what we’re learning, we talk about this in Wealthy and Well-Known, is that there are two parts of your art. There is the art of your art, and then there is the art of letting people know that your art exists. Marketing is art. Marketing is part of

your art and as people wake up to that, right, I think about Dr. Gabrielle Lyons, one of my favorite, you know, success stories of one of our clients who just she just kills it. She’s like a deep, deep expertise, spent her whole life researching like the real deal doctor, you know, like not an honorary degree, like a straight up this is the this is the real deal. And then she’s also become a master in in marketing the last couple years and branding and positioning and she’s just crushing it and she’s changing lives. And

AJ (11:31)
But that’s also because academia doesn’t teach those types of professions, business, sales and marketing. And that’s a real problem. And I hope that really changes in academia because it’s like for anyone to be insanely successful at their craft, they’re gonna have to learn the business components of how to run that business.

Rory (11:55)
I

mean, it’s crazy. I did get an MBA from a private school, you know, a great university shout out to Denver University, go pioneers. ⁓ But like,

that MBA, everything that we were taught about how to start a business was all about like raising money and pitch decks and like other people’s money and investors like, and the reality is that most entrepreneurs, they bootstrap it, start, you got to sell, you got to market, it’s more of that like guerrilla tactics and it was like, I didn’t learn a thing about any of that.

even the marketing we learned is like, you know, the four piece of marketing with you if you’re managing a $500,000 a year advertising budget, but it’s like, that’s not where entrepreneurship happens, right? It’s not where you start.

AJ (12:39)
That’s why I think most people are spending all of their time honing their craft, which is why they’re true experts, but they yet have not made the time to hone the skills necessary in the sales and marketing arena.

Rory (12:51)
So let’s talk about the skills

required in the sales and marketing arena. And this is a thing that us academics need to understand that we do not. When you have poured your life into your craft, you tend, I’ll speak for myself and people that I know, we tend to think people should respect us for what we’ve done and

operate accordingly. And this is where I think doctors and academics get a little of a bad rap of like, oh, they’re arrogant, because it’s like, yeah, because I put in the time to do this. But in the marketplace, people don’t buy because of you. They don’t because of how smart you are. They don’t buy because of how many degrees you have. Usually, they don’t even understand what the initials after your last name even stand for. They only buy because of what you can do for them. And if everything is about you and how great you are, and what you’ve done, and your research, and why you’re the best,

They frankly don’t care. They care about, can you help me succeed? How fast and who else have you done that for? Not how long have you studied it? Not what awards have you won? Not why you’re the world’s greatest? Just do you have a plan to help me succeed? Have you helped other people succeed? Can you do it fast? And can you articulate that clearly? And if you spend all your time talking about yourself, you’re going to be a highly qualified, very broke entrepreneur.

AJ (14:13)
Well, I think the other thing is too, I think this is really worthwhile, is that I think if you are in a industry, a profession where credentials carry a lot of weight, medical field, health care field, financials, like some of those other kind of things, ⁓ to be honest, they’re just the standard prerequisite. It’s almost the expectation that it’s

Rory (14:39)
just have a

CPA or that you have all these financial designations that

AJ (14:44)
You don’t get the

credit that they warrant because it’s kind of like the price of entrance. So I think there’s some of that that’s occurring where it’s like, well, yeah, of course, that’s just what you, that’s what I expect for you to do. But we had the opportunity to hear Dr. Henry Cloud speak a week ago and he was talking about how he selected his knee surgeon. And I thought it was very interesting. You know, he’s an academic.

Right. He’s got a PhD in psychology and he had gotten multiple referrals to three different types of doctors and one was world-class, well-known LA.

you know, knee surgeon to the stars and another one was recommended that was out of state. And then there was another one and another one had founded a clinic and he went through all these things. And it was so interesting to me how he selected the one he selected. And the one he selected is the one who actually took the time to ask questions about him, had done research on him, said, I see you’re a golfer. And like, it was all these things. Cause again, people aren’t buying your credentials.

Right? They’re buying what you can do for them. And out of all the doctors he selected, he chose, he lives in LA, to leave LA, or he did at the time, and go to Little Rock.

Rory (16:04)
Yeah, Arkansas.

AJ (16:05)
to have

this knee surgery done. And it’s like he was surrounded by world-class surgeons all around him. And he was like, but they didn’t care about me. They didn’t ask me questions. It was about, see this all the time. I know I’m the doctor. And the one he selected was like, hey, I see you’re a golfer. When’s the last time you got to golf? I can’t believe you’re walking around on that thing. Tell me when the pain started. And he said, they took time to get to know me and catered what they did to my goals.

to what I wanted to restore to, and that’s the one he selected. And I think that’s the same that goes for anyone, doesn’t matter what credentials you have or have not, it’s are you going to take the time to get to know your customer? Because it’s not just about what you’ve learned, it’s how can you apply what you’ve learned to help the person right in front of you.

Rory (16:53)
Yeah, and I think, you know, a risk is if you’ve put a lot of time into credentials, you want people to view you as important because you’ve earned that. But people don’t buy because you’re important. They buy because you make them feel important. And that’s a really important, that’s a key shift to understand. You know, I think about the speaking industry, right? Like, I see this all the time. I’ll lose a speaking gig to someone. I’m a certified speaking professional. I’m a CPAE, Council of Peers Awards of Excellence for the Hall of Fame. I’ve been a two time world champion.

of public speaking finalists. And, and never has anyone hired me for any of those things. In fact, I lose gigs a lot to people who don’t have any of that kind of training, but they’re more well known than I am. They’re a better marketer, they’re they their book sells better, whatever, like, they have more, they’ve done a better job of getting to the decision maker, and, and making their expertise more relevant to the decision maker than I have now. So I think that’s, that’s important.

AJ (17:25)
so impressed by it.

Rory (17:53)
distinction for people to understand. And it doesn’t mean that the credentials aren’t important or worth pursuing. It’s just they’re not the things that lead to conversion.

AJ (18:02)
Now you did mention earlier though, there’s one area where credentials really matter. I think we should talk about it.

Rory (18:08)
Should we talk about that?

The area that credentials really mattered is when you are getting featured as a guest on media. It really does matter. And people ask me this all the time. I think it was last week we just had our 116th client become a national bestselling author, which was also the 24th client that we’ve helped hit the New York Times.

we are helping clients hit the New York Times, honestly, ethically, and regularly right now, knock on wood. And it’s through a lot of hard work, and it’s a lot of energy, and it’s a lot of time, and it’s a lot of resources. And people say, is the New York, does the New York Times bestseller list still matter? And it’s like, to the average person on the street, it matters zero. In our national research study, we actually proved that the average person on the street

cannot tell the difference between a New York Times bestselling author, a Wall Street Journal, USA Today, Amazon, they can’t even tell the difference between a traditionally published book, a hybrid book, or a self published book. They do not know, they do not care. So when it comes to making money from customers, they only care, can you help them? for the media, it matters. If you’re gonna get on Good Morning America, if you’re gonna get booked on the biggest podcast, you know, I use Louis just because he’s, you know, a friend.

AJ (19:19)
The idea matters.

Rory (19:29)
Lewis gets so many books, Lewis Howes I’m talking about. So School of Greatness, they have one of the biggest podcasts in the world. Every week people send them books. And there’s two piles. There’s the automatic no pile. And then there is the maybe pile. And if you’re a New York Times bestselling author, you automatically get into the maybe pile. Doesn’t mean you get it. It means that you are immediately separated from 90 % of the people you probably get a look. And that’s true.

for a national or a local, particularly a local TV interview, that’s true for a speakers bureau, a literary agent, ⁓ any type of podcast or media interview. And if that’s why, if you show me someone who’s getting $50,000 to speak consistently, I will show you a bestselling author. I’m not saying I like it, but I’m telling you that is how it is. And companies have to be able to justify paying a certain amount of money, and they use credentials as part of it. So credentials still matter a lot

in those circles in the in the street cred of your industry right in those rooms at the National Speakers Association being a CSP and a CPA ⁓ it makes a world of difference. At Toastmasters it means nothing at Toastmasters being a two-time world champion of public speaking finalist is a big deal. There’s nowhere else in the world does it matter at all like nobody knows and so that’s but but if you’re trying to get a meeting

AJ (20:57)
video.

any industry. Totally like credentials matter in your industry because you’re all speaking the same language. You know what it takes, but outside of your industry to get customers, not as much. But I would say like that’s the same for like industry conferences, getting on panels, credentials matter for that. Why? Because they held a different standard. They act as a filter of somebody who has done more work, earned something that most do not. Books act as a filter, right? If you have a book, that’s one thing. It was a best selling book. It was at Amazon. Was it USA Today?

day, was it New York Times, they act as filters. But for consumers, for dollars and cents, maybe not as much. So I want to break the rest of our interview up into two categories. there’s a lot to cover in this conversation. And here are the two categories. The first one is, okay, what if I’m someone who doesn’t have a lot of credentials? But I do have a lot of experience, like a street cred, right? How do I build my credibility without a big name or really well known resume? So that’s

Part one. Part two is, okay, what if I have all the credentials? Like I am a full blown expert and I have all the letters behind my name to prove it and I spent all the money to do it. And time. And time. Like I have got all the things and yet it’s not really working for me. So those are the two categories. What can each of those category of people start doing today to help them grow and scale their business?

Rory (22:04)
BULL

All right, so we’ll talk about the first person who has the experience and maybe not the former credentials. This person struggles the most with imposter syndrome. They doubt whether or not they’ve earned the right to do it. And I would argue that…

If you’ve walked the path and overcome it yourself, you are as qualified as anyone else in the world to teach what you’ve done and to teach the way that you’ve done it. And that’s why we say you serve the person you once were. And so you need to know that because nobody cares about the customers don’t care about the credentials they care about. Can you help them? And if you’ve been through it personally, then you can help them.

And that makes you really, really qualified. Now what I would lean into if I don’t have the formal credentials, there’s two things we always encourage people we teach this in our expert bio lesson inside of phase one, course one, finding your brand DNA expert bio, names and numbers, names of people you know, names or names of people that you’ve helped names of organizations you’ve worked with. So so names of customers, if you can use any type of recognizable name.

of a university you went to media outlets you’ve been featured in stages that you’ve spoken on specific names of organizations or people that you’ve been associated with. You’re drafting off the credibility of those names, make sure they’re legit and you’re not lying and making stuff up. But the other one is numbers. And this one is specific for people who lack formal credentials is maybe you didn’t go to a fancy named college, maybe you haven’t worked for a fancy named company, maybe you don’t have fancy named clients. But if you’re a real expert, you have numbers.

What numbers am I talking about? Numbers that quantify how many years you’ve been studying this. How many people have you helped? How many hours have you put into it? How many articles have you done? How many people, clients have you helped? Names and numbers, I would really lean into that for that person.

AJ (24:22)
Okay, I love that. I’m gonna give an alternate. Love all of that. I would say the alternate to that is to lean in heavily into your story. I would double down on my story and targeting to the bullseye, to like that little tiny red dot in the bullseye of who am I going after?

Rory (24:33)
Yeah.

AJ (24:47)
And as you were talking, it made me think about how we hired our executive life coach.

And I kind of owned the task of doing all the interviews. And I was looking at all different types of different organizations who are very well known, who had well credentialed executive coaches, life coaches. And one of the things that I kept finding in all of that is like, man, they just seem like they all have it too together. And I was in a place in our business where I’m like, I don’t, I know I won’t show up authentically talking to someone.

who their entire story is, I’ve done it right every step of the way. And I was like, I probably went through six or seven different like, you know, sample calls, sample interviews with all these different companies. I was like, I was like, they’re, they’re, they’re too good. They’ve never, they’ve never fallen off the pedestal. And the reason that we picked our executive coach is because he was so authentic with his story of how he was at this certain position, made some choices.

really fell from graces, ⁓ lost a lot, had to go rebuild ⁓ and reset it. And he’s like, I’ve been through the fire and I know how to help you get to their side. And it was like, no, I need someone who’s been through the fire. I want someone who’s was here and then here and then came back here. Like I need someone who’s walked the walk who knows exactly how I feel. Where am I right now? And who’s on the other side. And it wasn’t his credentials.

It wasn’t the numbers or the names. I didn’t care. didn’t even ask. It was like, no, you’ve been exactly where I am and you’re somewhere I want to be. You’re the guy. And so I would lean in heavily to the story of your most powerfully positioned to serve the person you once were. Right. And that’s just knowing what problem you solve. What’s the cause of that? What’s your unique message and how you can get people through it? What are the payoffs and go knowing who you’re going after?

And I just think about how I hired our executive life coach, no names, no numbers, no credentials. I didn’t ask. I just knew the story and I knew what was mine. And so we hired him. So I would just also encourage you to lean into your story, lean into the thing that you’ve been through, lean into the thing that you’ve made it through. You know, what is the challenge that you’ve overcome? Uh, and who’s the person you serve? And that would be the alternate to not to negate what you said, but in addition to that, drive that home.

Rory (27:11)
Yeah. And if you struggle to tell your story and understand your uniqueness, your brand positioning statement, all those things, that’s what we do. So go to freebrandcall.com slash podcast, you can request a call with us for free. We’ll talk you through it. We’ll spend an hour understanding your story and ⁓ knowing where you are and we’ll create a little custom journey for where you can go to take your personal brand next. And part of that may or may not include ⁓ working with us and letting us support you. So check that out freebrandcall.com slash podcast.

AJ (27:16)
So we do.

Rory (27:41)
But I will double down for both categories. for both categories, whether you have the credentials or you don’t, I would actually double tap on what you said about sharing your personal story. double tap, tap, tap. If you ⁓

AJ (27:42)
because of the other category. Let’s hit the other category.

Rory (28:01)
I think this is also a sobering thing for people to realize if you’ve spent so much time and money having the formal credentials, those are not going to connect with people as much as your personal story or even the stories of your clients.

AJ (28:14)
Well, even if the credentials matter, the story is what differentiates you from everyone else who has the same credentials.

Rory (28:21)
It is in the story is what creates connection. And it’s like, what are credentials credentials give you credibility. But the story is what creates connection, connection creates trust and trust must happen before a transaction. So I think the story is really powerful. Honestly, I think that’s something that you and I don’t do enough of is sharing our personal stories and our stories of like,

where we come from and things. I mean, we share a lot of client stories and we dabble in the stories. that’s one thing I’ll speak for myself to say I need to get better at sharing more of my story. And I think I fit in the category of someone’s like, I did get an MBA, I was valedictorian, like, I have done national research studies, I did write a bunch of books like

AJ (29:08)
I disagree with that because I don’t talk about any of my credentials because I don’t have any. I don’t talk about them at all.

Rory (29:16)
Whatever,

There’s a strategy. Just don’t have any credentials, then you won’t have to worry about talking about it. I mean, ultimately, what matters most is talking about your prospects story and your prospects dream and your prospects life.

AJ (29:23)
It saves so much money.

You got

to be relatable to the person that you’re serving and they got to believe that you’re in it for them. And I think that that really matters the motive and that matters. All right, we did talk about this other one. I don’t want to run out of time. So what if you do have the credentials? They’re not they’re not doing the thing for you.

Rory (29:50)
Yeah, you got one of my favorite quotes is from a guy named Larry Wingate. And he said, at the end of the day, business is very simple. You have to have a really good product. And you have to ask a lot of people to buy it. And there’s a really good chance that if you have a lot of credentials, you have a really good product. You know what you’re talking about, you spent your life researching it. There’s also a really good chance you’re not asking enough people to buy it.

And you are probably hiding using research and creation and testing and validation as a advanced form of creative avoidance of not getting out and telling the people about what you do and sharing what you have with the world. And so that’s where you need help. And that’s one particular group that we really specialize in helping is overcoming some of that call reluctance that feels

AJ (30:38)
What’s

one thing that person could start doing today? That’s one thing outside of requesting a call. You’re saying? Yeah, like if they’re kind of hiding behind their credentials and they’re going, yeah, I’ve done all the work. I’ve done all the research. I do have that. Like I am an expert.

Rory (30:44)
to generate more business.

They should be speaking for free everywhere. Everywhere. Like literally think of yourself as chicken on a stick is the metaphor we use at the food court, right? Or at Whole Foods. It’s like people just need to sample you. And you probably are a little bit reluctant to sell. And that’s probably because you’re so used to being successful. The idea of rejection just terrifies you. ⁓ And so one of the ways

to kind of go around that, right? We can talk about going through that at a different time. But one of the ways to temporarily go around that is to go teach what you know for free everywhere, everywhere, podcasts, going live on social, virtual webinars, pre-recorded things, YouTube videos, Instagram, like stop trying to be perfect and just go teach what you know for free. And then tell people, hey, if you want help applying this to your organization or to your individual life, email me and request a call.

Like it is that simple. Not simple, but and there’s an emotional element here that is really hard. really, want to sink in on because again, the more successful you’ve been at school, and these types of things, which there’s a very like black and white do this thing, get this grade, get the, you know, get the degree, get the diploma, whatever. When you get into the human side of entrepreneurship, and sales and rejection,

AJ (31:49)
Not easy.

Rory (32:16)
It’s a very scary place for that person to go.

AJ (32:20)
That’s a good transition

⁓ to our community question, because every episode we take questions that were submitted by our community at Brand Builders Group. They get voted on and we pick one to share an answer on the podcast today. And what you were just saying is very complimentary to the question of today. And we’re going to wrap up with this. So this is from James who says, I have an MBA, 20 years of corporate strategy experience and a real track record of helping companies grow significantly. But I feel invisible on

line compared to coaches with half of my experience and a fraction of my results. I keep thinking I just need to explain my background better but it’s not working. What am I actually doing wrong and how do I flip the switch?

Rory (33:07)
I he says it right here. I think I just need to explain my background better. That’s not why anyone buys, right? Spoken like someone who’s worked really hard and built a real, and I feel for James because this is what it feels like to be a mission-driven messenger, to feel like the world’s best kept secret is like, I’ve paid my dues, why is nobody buying from me? And it’s because honestly-

AJ (33:30)
It’s

even I’ve paid my dues. It’s like I help companies get real results. Like I can help you.

Rory (33:37)
but it’s a little bit self-centered. And that’s the thing you gotta be careful of is how to explain my background better. It’s self-centered. It’s how do you share your story in a way that people relate with it? And how do you ask questions that make other people feel important and where they come to their own realization that you have a method that can help them? I think it’s as simple as that.

AJ (33:58)
Yeah, would just, know, a couple quick quick things to add to that. It’s like, it has nothing to do with you explaining your background better. It’s helping you become an advocate of the problem you solve. Right? If you’ve helped so many companies have monumental success, what was the problem that you saw for them? Like, what was it? What was the problem? Like, because if they have it, so do many other prospects.

So do many other companies. have to become a screaming advocate of the problem that you solve. A lot of people know they have a problem. They’re not often aware of why they have the problem, right? And so that’s what we call the cause, right? There’s a problem, right? A lot of people are aware like, hey, like I’m in financial debt. Like I have a problem. They don’t understand why they’re in debt. It’s because they keep spending when they shouldn’t. Like, why are you doing that? I’m trying to keep up with the Joneses.

I’m comparing myself to everyone else and you you’ve got to identify what that is and then you have to help people know it’s like I cannot only identify your problem. I can tell you why you have that problem and I have solution to fix the problem. So it’s not about your background. It’s like I know the problem. I know why you have it and I know how to solve it. Request a call with me right? So I think it’s less about your background and it’s more about you got problems. I know how to fix them. Let’s talk.

Rory (35:04)
there

And if you feel like James…

that you are the best kept secret and not enough people are buying from you. We know how to fix that problem. We should talk request a call with us free brand call.com slash podcast. In the meantime, if you’re not ready to talk to us just yet, just keep tuning in. Keep tuning in share this episode with other friends and family and other entrepreneurs and executives and other experts that you know, if you think they’ll enjoy it. And if you haven’t yet, please rate and review this podcast wherever you listen to it and come back next time. We’ll see you on the wealthy and well known podcast.

AJ (35:58)
Credentials tell people what you did, but a story tells them why you did

Rory (36:03)
It’s not like anyone is out there going, whoa, certified twice, take my money.