Tag: Rory and AJ Vaden | Episode

WWK Ep 023: Your Logo Can’t Shake Hands: Why Founders Must Be the Face of the Brand

RORY (00:00)
analogy that I’ve landed on that’s really helped me with this is launching a rocket ship into outer space. And you go when you’re first launching a rocket,

like I think it’s like 80 % of the fuel is used just getting it out of the Earth’s orbit, right? Is this this gravitational thrust. And when you’re launching a company, that’s exactly how it is. It’s like getting it off the ground is so difficult, you have to do everything in your power to get it up.

AJ (00:28)
Ready?

When’s the last time that you bought a service from a company just because of its logo? And then ask yourself this, when’s the last time that you bought from someone that you know, liked and trusted? Here’s the difference between those two questions. We don’t buy from companies. We buy from people. We don’t buy logos and colors and typography and iconography. We buy trust and we…

by reputation. And that’s why for those of you who are hiding behind your company’s logo, thinking that’s what’s gonna help your company grow and you’re putting all your money into branding and advertising and marketing your company, those days are over. We are in the face forward era of why being the face of your company matters. And we’re gonna talk about exactly how to get you from out behind the logo and into the spotlight to help your business grow today.

RORY (01:30)
This is an important lesson for entrepreneurs, a lot of entrepreneurs who do hide behind their logo. And I want to I want to ask you this, right? So as the CEO of Brand Builders Group, you’ve got a lot of things on your plate. You’ve got a lot of things vying for your attention that do have are not the things that have to do with you being a face forward part of our business. Yes. But you also don’t particularly love social media. You also don’t particularly love like online

networking, you also don’t listen to like a ton of podcasts yourself, but yet you prioritize some portion of time inside of your schedule to make sure that your face is a part of everything brand builders group. How do you justify doing that when there’s so many other things that are vying for your attention? And how do you like make that calculation and consideration?

AJ (02:26)
It’s a genuine discipline. Today is a great example. We had time set aside to record podcasts today. This is the last thing that my brain was telling me that I should be spending my time doing. After three and a half hours stuck in front of financials trying to troubleshoot some things for Q1 close, justifying why I should go leave the finance team and disarray.

and come over here and record some content, my logical brain said, that does not make sense. My get it done, type A, task rabbit mentality was not telling me this is where I should be spending my time. The reason though that I do schedule for it and I do make the time for it is because I actually believe

that having an executive face forward presence of the company makes a significant difference and why people choose to buy from us, why people choose to work for us and why people actually choose to stay.

both employees and customers of Brand Builders Group. And if I spent all my time behind the scenes ⁓ working on spreadsheets or putting strategies together and I was never out in front, two things would happen. One, I would lose touch with what our customers, our community actually needed.

I’m not going to learn that in numbers on a spreadsheet. I’m not going to learn that in just the financials. I’ve learned that from being with our customers. I learned that from figuring out what problems they have, what needs they have, what they love, what they don’t want, they want more of what they want less of. And I don’t need to hear it third party. like personally, I like to hear it direct because I don’t have any filtering. The second thing is that if I’m always behind the scenes, I also lose touch with our team.

And they lose touch with me. Both things happen. And so I don’t get to talk to every single team member every single day, but this is a way to multiply my efforts, multiply our thoughts, our beliefs, our values, not just to our team members, which I do hope they listen, but I don’t know if they do. ⁓ but also our community, right? It’s a way of going, Hey, you don’t get to know the behind the scenes, everyday life of me. But when I choose to come out behind all of the

multiple calls and KPI reviews and month in close reviews and all the other things that happen. This is a chance for me to one help make sure that values and beliefs aligned individuals can find us and vice versa, but also team members. Then the benefit for me is that I’m not just looking at data. Data tells one half of a really important business story. People tell the other.

and you gotta have an equal balance of team member input and customer input to balance out the numbers. And that’s why I make time for it even when it’s highly inconvenient, even when timing definitely doesn’t make sense. But it’s like anything, if you don’t schedule it, most likely it won’t happen. And if this wasn’t on the calendar today, I guarantee you.

It would have been the first thing cut from my, just go make some content when you have a break. There would have been no break. There would have been no content. So it’s scheduling and prioritizing the thing that you believe will move the needle.

RORY (06:00)
So how do you, if you’re an entrepreneur and you have been sort of leaning into putting yours to your company brand and hey, I don’t need to be seen, it’s not about me, it’s all about, all that people need to know about is the company. And then whether it’s through our national research study, which if you go to freebrandstudy.com slash podcast, you can download where we talk about the data that proves how important.

it is for an executive to be seen or just through kind of what you’re sharing here or just through intuition that you go, okay, I do buy into that the idea that people don’t buy from businesses or companies they buy from people. And I do I do want to start building my personal brand. How do you separate your personal brand from your business brand? And how do you draw those lines? ⁓ How do you delineate? Like, what do you share personally versus professionally and how much

Do you share of your personal life? ⁓

AJ (06:58)
Okay, those are

a lot of questions. You pick one question. was 36 questions. Pick one.

RORY (07:05)
So how do you start building a personal brand if you’ve been, I’ll say hiding behind, solely behind a company brand? How do you go ahead and start building a personal brand without confusing your customer?

AJ (07:19)
I wouldn’t start with my customers. I would start with my employees. Yes, building a personal brand. I think for most people who’ve been hiding behind their company logo, they’ve been doing the same thing internally within their company. They haven’t been really allowing themselves to be known by their team of employees either.

RORY (07:23)
Building a personal brand. What does that mean?

AJ (07:39)
Right? They come up and they’re like, I’m the boss. I’m the leader. I have to know. I have to have the answer. I have to be the one to have it all together. I don’t think a lot of employers come in and talk a lot about their personal life or their personal beliefs or personal values. I don’t think they’re testing out content or thought leadership with their teams. I don’t think they’d, I think more people have a proclensity to actually record a video and share it with strangers than they do their own friends and family.

I find that to be true in most cases. And I bet if you asked yourself when’s the last time that you had an in-depth conversation with a friend or a family member about what you do versus how much you talk about it on social media, on videos, I think the percentage would be widely skewed towards talking to strangers than friends and family.

RORY (08:30)
So you’re saying that if an owner is not building their personal brand as part of building their business, they’re also probably not sharing much of who they are with their own team member internally. You think that’s usually going to be the case.

AJ (08:43)
I ⁓ almost always. And I would say you start building your personal brand by making sure that you have a personal brand within your own company. We just got off the heels of one of our twice annual speaker showcase events at BBG. And one of our amazing clients, Steven Hoschka, had this amazing quote, which I will be saying for the rest of my business career, which is, culture is the mindset.

of the company. And I think that a lot of companies that lack culture lack a shared mindset because the owner isn’t actually creating a culture that is from their mindset. I think a lot of companies have this culture that they’re like, well, this is what I want the company to be. But sometimes it’s even disconnected from who they are.

And I think that one of the things that entrepreneurs can do to start building their personal brand is just to start actually within the company of like, do my own employees, do my own team members, does my own executive team really know who I am? Do they know how hard it was when I started the company or did they just know the company today? Like, do they really know what I did before I started the company?

Did they know how hard I worked? Did they know why this was important to me? Do they know why I’m still here? Do they know what keeps me up at night? Do they know what my dreams are for the company? Do they know what my dreams are for my role and where my gifts are? Do they know where my challenges are? I don’t think most leaders share that. I definitely don’t think most entrepreneurs are sharing that. And I think the first place to start is you’ve got to build a personal brand within your company, your team members, your employees.

need to know who you are first. And I think that’s a great place to one. Well, one, it’s easier because you have a captive audience, right? You can schedule a team meeting and like, I got a keynote right here. Like you got a captive audience scheduling an all company meeting. ⁓ You already have a captive audience. It’s like, why not start with being like, hey, I’m going to start my very first newsletter just to my own company.

RORY (10:56)
help me understand, okay, if I’m an owner, how do I even think about what’s the difference between a personal brand and a company brand? Like, I understand my company brand, I have a logo, it’s my business. How would I, how do I define a personal brand? Because my identity is probably connected in many ways to the company I’ve built. you know,

AJ (11:19)
Well, I we say this all the time, right? The definition of a personal brand is the formalization, digitization and monetization of your reputation, right? So your personal brand is just the. Formulized reputation that you want to have, right? A simpler way of saying that is your personal brand is what people think about when they think of you. And I think the reason I would say the best place to start for entrepreneurs is within your own company is ask yourself or even ask your

team. What do you think about when you think of me? Again, you have a captive audience where you can make people respond and be like, does that actually align with how I want to be known? I think that’s a first gauge, a first point of going like, hey, if I really want to do this externally, I have to start internally. It’s got to be known with the people that I spend most of my time with in order for me to help get it known by a whole bunch of other people. So I think part of it, it’s like personal brand is just

Are you known for the thing that you want to be known for? What do people think of when they think of you? A company brand, and I say this all the time, it’s like a company is just a collection of other people, right? But how many times have you bought from a company and you’ve had an incredibly inconsistent experience just simply based on who you worked with? Sure. Right?

And therein lies what Stephen was talking about with culture is the mindset of the company and mindset is a shared set of values that starts top down. Right. But I think a lot of times we don’t do that. We want other people to do it.

And it’s like, that’s a great way to start. But I also just find it’s like, it’s a great way to test content and share things and see what resonates and make sure this is the thing that I want to go take public to make sure that it does have a connection point to my company. And the difference of a company and your personal brand, we think about an entrepreneur is your company is just the business model of your personal brand. It’s not a completely different thing that you’re going off and building. And I think that’s where people get really confused and they get it wrong. If you take

Either you or myself, we both have independent personal brands, right? Of course we do. We have our own reputations. We have our own messages, our own life experiences, our own life stories, but our business model is the same, which is brand builders group. My personal brand’s connection to brand builders group is that it is my business model. So my personal brand, regardless of what I’m talking about, is just helping generate awareness to brand builders group.

RORY (13:53)
a

lot of executives, particularly at large companies, assume that if someone’s building their personal brand, they equate that to like their moonlighting. It’s a separate, it’s a side job. It’s a different thing.

AJ (14:04)
PNB, but it doesn’t have

RORY (14:06)
And it certainly can be which can be can be an issue. But if they’re just directing all of that attention and awareness back to the company, it’s like each person is a billboard for the company, each person is 100 % is an advertisement for the company, like they’re out there in the community, which is like, well, they should be that anyways, to their friends and family. It’s like, people ask, where do you work? What do you do? And it’s like, that is an opportunity for every

team member to be a contributor to lead generation and marketing for

AJ (14:35)
It’s

like every person’s bio has what their role is and where they work. Like, I mean, it is a walking billboard. I say this all the time. It’s like, no one ever has ever hired a company to be on a podcast. Companies don’t speak on podcasts. Human beings do. No one ever has booked a company to be featured in media.

It’s the owner of the company, the founder of the company, the executive of the company. No one has ever hired a company to come speak on their stage. They hire people from companies to come speak on those stages. And so I think that’s a huge part of what we need to recognize is a company isn’t hired to sit on a panel. A company doesn’t get the community service award. Those are people, right? And people make up companies. And so for entrepreneurs,

Really what you have to think about is like, are the walking advertisement for your company, for your mission, for your values, for what you believe in, for your customers, for the service, for your team. You are the walking marketing campaign.

RORY (15:40)
Same, same for a nonprofit, church like.

AJ (15:42)
All of

You have got to be the thing that is just, you know, bubbling over ⁓ with everything that is your company. And your company also needs to be a reflection of you, right? Like you got into it for a reason, right? There’s got to be a connection of what you do and who you are. ⁓ And a lot of that has to do with like, there’s some sort of belief that you have, ⁓ a customer segment that you want to serve, a service that you just deeply believe that matters.

in the world and you just got to find that connection and become a massive advocate for it. And I believe that’s how entrepreneurs build their personal brands that thus help their companies grow.

RORY (16:26)
What would you say to an executive who’s who is just a little bit nervous about being on camera and being on stages and being out in front of people? So if they buy into this idea of like, yeah, I think me broadcasting more of my personal convictions around why we do what we do and who we want to be could be valuable for the company in many different ways. But I don’t love being the center of attention. I don’t feel comfortable on camera. I don’t really like even speaking on stages like

Do you think it’s so valuable they should get over that or like what would you be advice to that?

AJ (17:01)
I think there’s workarounds for every single one of those. Another reason why I say start with your own internal team first. ⁓ A part of that is practice. part of that is ⁓ anything that you do for the first time is a little awkward, uncomfortable, and scary. It only gets less awkward, less scary, less uncomfortable the more you do it. And yeah, you probably won’t be good at any of it the first time you do it. Who’s good at anything the very first time? First podcast probably won’t be as good as the 100th. First time speaking, it’s not going to be as good as the 100th.

that’s just the process of doing it. But I think the thing that I have found most people think is they have pigeonholed what it means to be in media, be on a podcast, going out and being a representative in the community. And it’s like, if you’re like, I have stage fright, I can’t speak on stages, well, then be a panelist, right? Be on a panel and just let people ask you questions. I have found most people can do that exceptionally well, if it’s in their industry, if it’s in their space.

They have massive expertise, but the idea of standing on stage by themselves talking to a big audience, but find your work around. How about doing a Q and a, how about being on a panel? So same thing.

RORY (18:12)
think it’s powerful for an executive to do anything where they’re having to overcome fear because it’s like it’s a communication to your team like I’m learning new things, I’m struggling with new things, I’m dealing with change.

AJ (18:26)
But I do think it’s a it’s a leader goes first mentality. If I’m asking my sales team to get out there and show up and knock on doors, then I got to be willing to do that. If I want my team to go out there and generate leads, then I got to be willing to do that. That doesn’t mean that’s 100 % of my time and focus, but I got to be willing. Be like, you know, project Maverick. We talk about that a lot. Like I love Top Gun Maverick. And when Tom Cruise at the very end of the movies, like I got to jump in the jet and show these other pilots that it came

be done. I have to prove it. I have to go first to show them this can be done. We as entrepreneurs get the opportunity to do that for our teams but also for our customers.

RORY (19:08)
What about ⁓ here’s a viable concern that I think entrepreneurs sometimes have and I don’t know that I have a great answer for this and I’m curious to hear what you would say. The valuation of a company, one of the things that drives down the valuation of a company is if a company is dependent on the founder, the more dependent on the founder, the less valuable the company is. And so they equate, if I build a personal brand to help grow the business, then that

ties the valuation of the company more to me and I want that to be separate. Do you think that’s true? If so, why or why not? And how would you how would you think about that? And then and I’ll share I have an analogy for this that I’ve kind of come around to over the years.

AJ (19:52)
You know, I would say the realness of that is the fact that anyone who is going to be buying your company is most likely going to keep you on board for one to three years for that exact same reason. They know how valuable you are and it’s why they retain you as a part of the contract.

It’s like, then there’s a phasing out. There is a filtering out. I know very few exits where the owner sold and was like, I’m out 24 hours later. There is a phasing out because there is trust and value that has to be transferred. And the trust transfer happens because you transfer the trust as the owner.

And so I’d say one, that’s just a big nonsensical thing of like, well, you’re going to be retained anyways to ensure all things go aligned. Otherwise all your employees would bail, all your customers would bail. So you’re going to be retained anyways. There’s going to be a phasing out naturally. But the other thing I would say is like, that would only be a concern if you’re trying to scale something to sell it, right? And if that’s the only thing you’re doing, it’s like, well, guess what? The quickest way to scale it is to build trust.

And so I would say one is like, doesn’t matter how you cut that pie. It doesn’t really make sense when you talk about what’s really going to happen in an exit.

RORY (21:09)
Yeah, I think you go…

whether you build a personal brand or not, if someone’s buying your company, it’s because the value you’ve created, which is largely because of you. That’s right. And the faster you can grow a company, the more valuable it is. And if a personal brand is something that’s going to accelerate the growth of that company, then you should do anything you can do. Anything you can do to speed up the growth of the company is a good idea. The analogy that I’ve landed on that’s really helped me with this is launching a rocket ship into outer space. And you go when you’re first launching a rocket,

like I think it’s like 80 % of the fuel is used just getting it out of the Earth’s orbit, right? Is this this gravitational thrust. And when you’re launching a company, that’s exactly how it is. It’s like getting it off the ground is so difficult, you have to do everything in your power to get it up. And so you have these rocket boosters that are on the side to launch it into outer space. And then once you clear the Earth’s orbit, those boosters kind of fall off and go away. And so what I would say is like, man,

When you’re launching a company, you have to do everything in your power to make it succeed, anything that will help you grow, survive, thrive, sustain, it’s like you must do it. And so if your personal brand is that and the data suggests very strongly and clearly that it is that you should be using that to grow it.

And then, you know, if there’s an exit on the horizon, or you reach a certain point where you’re starting to think about that, it’s like, okay, then maybe you could think about like, kind of breaking that off. ⁓ But I think you’re on it too, which is if if you sell the company, no matter if you have a personal brand or not, they’re still going to have that issue. So what difference does it make? It doesn’t. And even if you keep the company,

You know a company we’re selling looks a lot like a company worth keeping we say that a lot is to go at some point you need to make sure the business is going to operate without you right but here you and I are going we’re going to use our personal brands to grow this company and get it going and Maybe one day it could survive completely without us. That would be a good thing That would be a healthy thing, but there’s no reason not to like increase the viability of success for everybody by by doing it so

Either way, think it’s like, think that’s mostly just an excuse.

AJ (23:27)
I think there’s a couple of things that I would just encourage entrepreneurs, small business owners to remember is like building a personal brand ⁓ has four amazing components to it that will actually help your company. The first one is it helps with customer acquisition. Then it helps with customer retention. Then it helps with employee acquisition. And it helps with employee retention.

And those are four big components that people just don’t think about. They don’t talk about. And those are four things that a founder.

an entrepreneur should be doing no matter what phase of your business that you’re in, helping acquire customers, retain customers, acquire employees, retain employees. It doesn’t have to be your full-time gig, but it is a part of your gig as the business owner, and building a personal brand helps you multiply and expedite those efforts. It really is about accelerating trust, and the amount of customers that learn about you,

from a panel that you sat on, that doesn’t mean they’re going to run to your company website and buy from you. But they’re like, man, when I need that, I’m going to retain this little bit of information that I heard, or I saw, or I witnessed. Or when your employees start talking about, this is the type of person that runs our company. That matters when I’m

hard things come or hard times come or you need employees, then you put your employee force out there for you to help recruit. Same thing happens with your customer first. When you have a really aligned customer base, they help build more aligned customers. But that only happens when you’re attracting people that

share the same values and beliefs that you do. How can you attract those people? They know that you have them. How do they know you have them? You tell them.

RORY (25:22)
Yep, absolutely. ⁓ Well, I think that’s an important conversation for entrepreneurs and executives to understand. it’s just like, man, in the world today, it’s like whatever you can do to drive revenue. And beyond the data of this, right? So again, if you go to freebrandstudy.com slash podcast, you can download our national research study of ⁓

we invested over $100,000 into this PhD led study to answer some of these questions about how much does it influence, how much does the personal brand of an executive influence the average person’s decision to buy from you, recommend you, work for you, vote for you, hire you, date you, all of the things. But even just common sense is to go, would you rather work for a company

where you knew nothing about any of the people who worked there in senior leadership, or where you felt like you knew the executives of the company you were going to work for.

AJ (26:18)
think of just one teeny tiny story that happened just a couple of weeks ago. ⁓ We were in a finance meeting and I kind of sit as CFO at the current moment of Brand Builders Group and our bookkeeper was asking me as we were hanging up the phone, she goes, how’d you get into being an entrepreneur? And she was like, it just feels like.

You know, you’re a mom, you have two kids, like this is a lot. And I laughed and I said, it’s in my blood. She goes, what do you mean? I thought, oh, I’m a third generation entrepreneur. And she goes, how so? And I said, oh, my grandfather started a company and his wife was his business partner. And then my dad bought out my grandfather and my mom was his business partner. So being business partners with my spouse and running a business is the only thing I’ve ever known. I grew up with all our aunts and uncles

being the employees of my dad’s business and Christmas parties and birthday parties were mixed of company team members and family members and friends. It’s like it’s all I’ve ever known. I don’t even know how to do it any other way. And she laughed and she was like, wow.

That’s so helpful for me to know about you. She goes, that actually makes so many things, makes so much more sense right now, and the way that you choose to run things here. And I was like, yeah. And she goes, I’m so glad that we had that 10 minute chat. And I think a part of it is that’s never come out publicly.

I don’t promote that, but that one little conversation was so helpful for her to go, I just needed to know who you were. I just needed to know where you came from so I can relate to these, you know, conversations where you have such a strong conviction on how it should be. And I’m like, well, that’s because I was raised in this. It’s the only way I know how to do it.

RORY (28:09)
And had you not married such a pretty boy mama’s boy, maybe we’d be in a construction business together. But since you married me, personal brand strategy it is, ladies and gentlemen.

AJ (28:18)
But

it starts, building a personal brand really does start with one-on-one conversations just like that. I love that. No, regardless. Regardless of how, but it’s like those little stories do matter. Helping people get to know you, it matters.

RORY (28:26)
your story.

All right, that’s a good on the topic of community and community questions. This is something that we do on every segment we give our members, our monthly members who are in our program, a chance to ask questions and basically vote them up on what they would like us to answer here on the show. So this question comes from Kevin. He says, I’ve been running a successful accounting firm for 11 years. My company has a strong local reputation, but I want to expand nationally and attract higher end clients.

Everyone keeps telling me I need a personal brand, but I’m genuinely not sure how to separate me from the firm without confusing my current clients or undercutting the business I’ve built. How do I build both at the same time without one hurting the other?

AJ (29:21)
Well, I would start with ⁓ making sure that as you’re building your personal brand, you have a direct connection that the purpose of that is to generate leads for the accounting firm. That’s how you don’t undercut it. It’s like, no, I am going to build my personal brand as the founder of this accounting firm.

And a part of that is, you know, we talk about this all the time, is your most powerfully position to serve the person you once were, right? So what audiences are you speaking to? Hopefully they’d be in the space where you can help people who have accounting needs, right? Because that’s what you’ve been doing. You’ve been serving businesses who rather need fractional support or tax support or whatever it is you’re doing, but it’s like your personal brand.

I think a lot of people get confused with, I have to go start a new business. I have to launch some sort of product or a book. No, you don’t. Most people build their personal brands with intentionality to simply drive leads to their existing business. The second thing people get mistaken all the time is, I have to go build some new audience. No, you don’t.

That’s the hardest, silliest. Don’t do that thing, I can tell you. It’s like, no, you build a personal brand and you start sharing the message with the audience you already have, which are all the clients and all the prospective clients that you’re currently serving. That’s how you go and reach more. That’s how you go from a local brand to a national brand without undercutting either thing.

RORY (30:45)
Yep, I 100 % agree. think the big misconception here you touched on it is that people

inappropriately equate the term personal brand with a business model or a new revenue stream. They go, they, this is inaccurate, but this is what they think. If I’m going to start my personal brand, I need to start making money as a speaker, as a podcaster, as a book writer, as a course creator, as a membership, blah, blah, No, you don’t. In fact, the fastest path to cash is to use your personal brand as a lead generator for your current business.

the most simple, most common, most profitable, and the highest percentage of our clients are just simply using their personal brand as an accelerator for their current business. It’s less like they’re starting a new company, and it’s more like they’re launching a new marketing initiative that funnels into their existing business, a super high powered marketing initiative, which is the personal brand of the founder or executives, multiple executives feeding into

the business. so that’s just a common misconception that people have that leads them astray. And and so I think use your personal brand, talk about what you do, talk about what you believe, talk about your expertise, there is no difference.

AJ (32:02)
and talk about it to the audience, that would be your prospective clients.

RORY (32:06)
Right. And drive, you know, so it’s like, this is not two different things. You shouldn’t be confusing anybody. This is a very aligned like use your personality to drive to drive more revenue and leads into your current business.

Other than that, if you’re like really trying to start a separate business, I wouldn’t call that building a personal brand, I would call that starting a separate business. So I think executives and entrepreneurs should think of it less as like, oh, I’m starting a new business like a personal brand as a business. And you should just think of it as more of I’m using my personality to grow my existing business. Maybe that will help you make the distinction sharper and clearer. So that’s a great question from Kevin, a common one.

AJ (32:51)
Yeah, and I would just encourage for anyone who’s out there listening that you’re an entrepreneur, you’re a small business owner, and you’re going, okay, I’ve heard people say this enough times, I’ve thought it about enough times, maybe I really should explore this, then I would really encourage you to schedule a call with our team and you can go to freebrandcall.com forward slash podcast and request a one hour strategy call to talk about how do I build my personal brand to help grow my business. And that is how it can really help

you as an entrepreneur is to generate leads to funnel them to your existing business so you can grow and scale it. So freebrandcall.com forward slash podcast grab a call and let us help you explore.

RORY (33:33)
And if you know an entrepreneur that is out there who needs to do a better job of building their personal brand or who could have more potential growth for their company, share this episode with them. ⁓ Give us a ⁓ like, a subscribe, comment, review this podcast wherever you’re watching or listening to it. We’re so grateful for you. We’ll catch you next time on the Wealthy and Well-Known Podcast.

AJ (33:55)
Look guys, your logo cannot shake a hand.

RORY (33:59)
We’re not saying your logo is bad. It’s just emotionally unavailable.

WWK Ep 022: Followers Don’t Pay the Bills: The Real Formula for Wealthy & Well Known Brands 

RORY (00:00)
A creator’s favorite form of creative avoidance is creating. A creator’s favorite form of creative avoidance is creating. They love to create, create, create, create, and they never tell anyone they exist. And if you’re not willing to go chase and you’re not willing to talk about, if you don’t care so passionately about your calling that you’re not going to share it with anyone, like you’re going to struggle.

What if all of the personal brands that you follow, the ones that seem to be building and growing effortlessly, the ones that are landing the big stages and the big speaking engagements, the big book deals, getting lots of followers, growing their online presence, what if there was a formula that they were following? Well, here’s the thing, they are.

Almost all of them. are very similar patterns and we’re going to talk about them today. Whether those creators know that they’re doing it or not. There are several identifiable, duplicatable systems and formulas that any personal brand can apply. And that’s what we’re here to pull the curtain back on and expose and share with you today. Welcome to the Wealthy and Well-Known Podcast. I’m joined by my wife, business partner, best friend, ⁓ and the CEO of Brand Builders Group, AJ Vadant.

AJ (01:14)
All right, so here’s the first question of the day that we’re going to talk about. What makes a personal brand go viral? And is there a formula that you can actually follow?

RORY (01:27)
Yeah, so I would say that the formula for going viral is watching the formulas that go viral. So basically when you see a video go viral, what we’re seeing today is that right now creators are watching the hook structures, the formats and the patterns that when a video goes viral, it’s because of the structure of the video and the format of the video as much as the framework of the video, right?

It’s not just what you’re saying. It’s not just what you’re teaching. It’s more about how you’re presenting that idea, how you reveal it, how you ⁓ unroll it, and even how you edit the video. So what’s happening is people are seeing a video go viral and then they’re just replicating those formulas.

AJ (02:18)
Let’s pause

there. Let’s talk about what are some of those formulas.

RORY (02:21)
Yeah, so I mean, there’s there’s hundreds of these hook formulas, right? And people talk about them. But like one that’s really popular right now is, if I had to start over from scratch today, and I wanted to achieve blank, here’s exactly what I would do. Right? That’s a really, a really, a really classic one that’s like going viral right now. Another thing that is going viral right now is ⁓ when people are putting multiple videos on the screen. So it’s like, here’s an example of this, here’s an example of this, here’s an example of

We had a video go massively viral, hundreds of thousands of views, ⁓ thousands and thousands of comments and stuff. And it’s exactly that. Here’s this, here’s this, here’s this, here’s this. And it’s not the quality of the content. It’s not the framework. It’s the format. I’m not sure how I feel about all of this, right? But a lot of, think, what is

important to understand and what we do at brand builders group right is we’re dissecting and understanding a lot of these patterns not just for going viral on video going viral on videos like one of our our least valuable concerns because it’s not necessarily what drives revenue and trust long term but it is a great example of to go everything we do at brand builders group where you go how to become a best-selling author

How do you sell high dollar offers? How do you fill out rooms? How do you speak on the biggest stages? It’s a formula. It’s always a formula. It’s all about pattern recognition. And so I think it’s one of the things you could say, what do you really do at Brand Builders Group is like we identify the patterns, we then reconstruct them in a pragmatic way that anyone can follow. And then we teach them in all these different areas of a business.

AJ (03:59)
So I think what would be really helpful for everyone listening, me included, I think one of the things that a lot of people talk about are the patterns. They talk about the algorithm. They don’t really tell the end user like, go try this, go do this. And I think a part of it is you have to try many things to see what’s gonna click with your audience. But if someone was listening today going, okay, great, give me the three formulas to go and try online, what would they be? So I think you listed two of them, right?

if I had to start all over I would do this. Yeah. The second one would be multiple screens of going like give people the images of multiple things that you’re showing all at the same time.

RORY (04:41)
So the real answer to your question is the one thing that I would do is I would follow the top creators in your space. I would look at which of their videos are over indexing, meaning they have way more views than they had followers, right? So this is an important thing is to go, if a video has 100,000 views, is that an over indexing video? And the answer is, it depends on how many followers they have. If you have 5 million followers in your video, got 100,000 views, not so much.

5000 followers and you got 100,000 views. That is a rich, there’s a rich idea, there’s a rich format, there’s a rich opportunity there. So the the, the formula, it’s not the best thing is not for me to just give you a formula. It’s different in every space. The the granular overarching formula is follow the top creators, pay attention to what’s working for them, and then replicate your own version of that.

And that is particularly in the space of viral online video, we’re talking carousel, well, not even video, but just carousel posts, reels, YouTube, you’re going to see if you watch closely all the top creators, that is what they are doing. And it’s a fascinating study because it tells you that the psychology

is very consistent of the human brain and very repeatable. And so you can go I can watch what a fitness trainer did to go viral. And mostly what we’re copying is the hook structure the first three seconds. Now when we teach what is a hook, a hook is anything you do or say in the first three seconds to get people to keep watching. That’s how we define it because I’ve never seen anyone define it. Right. So that’s how we define it.

And a great one example of a hook structure that we teach is the I want blank test is to say how would your viewer answer the question I want blank and then tell them in this video, I’m going to teach you and fill in whatever however they would answer the I want blank. That would be a generic hook structure that works really well that if you don’t want to do all this other stuff, you go, just use the I want blank test. But now people are even using AI to track all of these patterns and go,

this woman hosts a cooking show and she said, you know, here’s five things I would have learned, I wish I knew when I first started cooking. And you take out the word cooking, but here’s five things I wish I learned when I first started speaking. And then that’s it. So the psychological structures, it’s about the pattern is noticing the pattern.

AJ (07:15)
So I think one of the things that would be helpful is to talk about what are some of the other formulas, right? So you’ve got a format formula, which is kind of what you’ve been talking about and the different types of format. Would you say that there’s any specific formulas to follow when it comes to duration or any way to end the video, captions or some other, are there some other formulas that we should talk about that would be helpful for anyone listening today?

RORY (07:41)
⁓ There’s one other very advanced thing that I would share that I think is universal enough to everybody listening and that is that if you have four parts in a video, okay, so say you have four points, it’s a YouTube video and there’s four points. Point number one should be shorter than point number two. Point number two should be shorter than point number three. Point number three should be shorter than point number four, meaning

When people feel like they’re making progress early, they’re more likely to stay. If they feel like it’s dragging on, they tend to leave. But if you go, okay, you hook them in the first three seconds, and then what you’re seeing in a lot of these other YouTube videos is hooks within the video. So the most important hook is the opening hook. But then you say, hey, you mentioned something like, there’s three ways to create

You know, there’s three patterns that every creator needs to know to go viral. And the first one’s right now. And I’ll tell you the second one in a sec in just a minute. That is a hook inside of a hook. It’s going I’ll tell you the second one in a second. I’ve just told them about something else that is about to come. And that’s what kind of the definition of a hook is. So that is another sort of psychological pattern that we’re seeing pretty consistently is this idea that you’ve got

shorter points earlier in the video. There’s something going on that when people feel like they’re making progress, like if you can get them through the first few chapters, then they’re likely to stay longer. And then they give you more permission to give you more of their time basically as time goes on.

AJ (09:21)
What about anything in your opinion with reels versus stories versus carousels versus all the other things when you think about different formulas patterns and formats?

RORY (09:34)
Yeah, I mean, another carousel thing that’s going viral, and by the way, I would not consider myself an expert on this. This is not where we spend a lot of our time, which is what I think we can get to is to go, a good question is to go, why don’t we spend more of our time studying this stuff? And because this, lot of this stuff to me points more to vanity metrics than it does to profitability. But inside of this area, which we do spend some time studying, another really common

thing that’s performing really well right now is your backstory. Like your personal story. People are tuning in to where did you start and if it’s a carousel post, it’s like pictures, right? So I’m working on one of these right now where it’s like I’m taking pictures from all of these different areas of my life, where the picture is worth a thousand words. And it says, here’s where I started. Here’s what I wanted to do. Here’s where I struggled.

This is what was low. This is what I did. This is what I learned. Here’s what happened. And now I can teach you comment blah, blah, blah below for the opt in those personal stories are performing super well right now. I think about that’s a great carousel post formula.

And I think the other thing that is performing well, you know, lot of people will say you don’t sell on your feed, you sell in your stories. That’s where and really we say the dollars are in the DMS. That’s really where sales happens. But like even lead generation happens more in the stories. So you attract them with the content on your feed, you nurture them inside of your stories and you convert them in your DMS or on a free call. But inside stories is a lot of where customer testimonials are being shared. That’s another really common thing of going you need one

thousand customer testimonials, and you post a couple every day inside the stories. Because when people find you from your feed content, they go, wow, this was valuable, who is this person? And then they follow you closely, they go in your stories, and then they’re seeing, whoa, you’ve helped this person get a result, and this person helped them get a result, and this person helped get a result. And now I’m interested in engaging in potentially buying.

AJ (11:42)
So for the

person who’s listening going, that feels like a lot of work. I felt like a lot to do. Uh, how, what do I, what, do you want me to do here? I have a, I have a full-time gig. I have a full-time job. Like who’s supposed to film me? Who’s supposed to edit all this? Who’s supposed to know all these formulas? Who’s supposed to know all these formats? What would you say to that?

RORY (12:02)
I would say yeah, you’re right. It’s a lot of work. Like there’s no free lunch as grandma used to say, right? Like everything that looks effortless is not effortless. So there is a whole lot of people getting sold a bunch of garbage because on the surface it’s like, ⁓ you know, I’m a stay at home. I’m a mom of four and I run my own business and I do it all through Instagram and AI comment this below and sign up for my webinar. And then they’ll buy something that’s just like

garbage because the reality is this is someone who is working 12 hours a day or they have a team or they’re spending a bunch of money on ads or like it’s like there there is their excellence is never an accident. It’s never an accident.

AJ (12:46)
I would say even that it’s not even excellence. It’s like even the effort and all of this is not to be taken lightly to come up with the content to learn the formulas to just even follow the other top creators in your space. All of that is an extraordinarily large commitment of time, energy, money and resources. If this is what you’re really trying to do. And I think that’s one of the things I just kind of wanted to highlight is

And I love the idea of like, yes, follow the top people in your field and then realize as you’re following them, they have a team. Like they have someone following them. ⁓ They have video editors, they have graphic designers. Like that is, it’s not apples to apples.

RORY (13:31)
So I would love to talk about this question. How do I know if my personal brand is actually working? What metrics should I actually be tracking? So if we’re saying like, look, I can show you a list of people who’ve gone viral who struggle to pay their bills. And I can show you a list of people who you’ve never seen a video of theirs online and they fly in private jets. And it’s just ironic the world that we live in is there’s a whole lot of like, you know, drawn to the vanity stuff.

And so I think this is topic that we should talk about is what are the metrics that I should be tracking? What are the actual measurable KPIs that are going to lead to dollars?

AJ (14:13)
Well, ironically, none of those, in my opinion, would be found on social media. In my books, the actual metrics would be number of calls being generated and run, which could come from social media, but those are a lot harder to come by.

RORY (14:31)
But we would

rather have a video with a hundred views that drove five free calls than a video with 50,000 views that drove no free calls.

AJ (14:39)
all day long, every day. It would be the number of clients being converted. It would be number of clients that are retaining. It’d be the number of referrals being sent by clients because then it’s like proof that your work is actually working. would count client testimonials as a KPI because it’s proof of what’s working. Number of presentations that you’re giving and presentations could be keynotes on stages, workshops in your local community,

podcast interviews, it’s whatever you’re doing to get your message out into the world. ⁓ Those would be the actual metrics that I would be looking at. It’s like how many calls are being generated, calls being run, clients being converted, clients being retained, referrals being sent. And then on top of that, it would be like, what are all the other things you’re doing to generate the calls, which are your presentations?

RORY (15:12)
going on.

Yeah, it’s funny, I literally just got off of a live training with our members. And I was we were talking about the success tracker. So this tool that we created that tracks basically the eight core metrics that every personal brand needs to drive for behavior, and then the four results that they measure. it’s it’s like, how many emails have you added to your list? So that that’s to me is like, the most digital thing to care about is like, how many email subscribers, but even that is super misleading, because it’s like,

AJ (15:55)
emails.

RORY (16:04)
you can add free emails all day from all over the place that like have nothing to do with the people that are actually going to do business with you. But that is a first metric. Sure. As going emails, then you know how many phone numbers you collect, how many free calls requested, how many free calls ran. And then it is presentations given referrals given referrals earned. And it’s like if you do those things, and you focus on you know, how many media pitches have you sent?

those things will lead to actual money. It’s you getting in front of humans in more of an offline way or more of a longer form content way. I will say that I am being drawn more to YouTube is going.

I think, you know, YouTube is really a place where trust can transfer because it’s long form content, right? And, and, you know, there was a study, I believe it was from Google that came out that said seven hours, people need to spend seven hours online with you before they actually would be willing to like, making an investment. And you know, in the world of YouTube, that might be like 10 to 14 videos in the world of reels. It’s like, it’s pretty much impossible to get to seven hours. mean,

AJ (17:14)
I that is one demographic that we should definitely be talking about. To not talk about it would be not fair. But I would just tell you, in my personal opinion, it’s like if someone who I do not go to YouTube or to social media to find experts, it’s like if I’m really looking for someone to hire, if I’m really going after that one, I’m going to ask for referrals from my network. So it’s going to be word of mouth. Or I’m going to read their book. And time-wise,

It’s similar. It’s like the average book is six to seven hours in length. So whether I read it or I listen to the audio, but it’s like, if I’m really going to invest.

thousands of dollars or tens of thousands of dollars. I’m not going to do it just off of social media content or even off of YouTube content. It’s not going to be just off of a podcast interview. It’s because I heard about someone that I, that I trust. Like I trust someone. I heard about someone else. I went then and investigated, found that they had a book or found that they had a free course. I’m tested that. Then I’m going to request a call. Like there’s a series of multiple things that can happen online and offline. But the thing that’s going to expedite all of those

is that someone I trust said, this is who I trust. And that could be…

someone that I already really like, know and trust as a personal friend. It could be someone as a thought leader that I’m an avid follower of and I just align with their content. But that’s gonna be the thing that’s gonna expedite it more than anything else. And those things can happen online and offline. But the first thing I’m gonna do before I invest tens of thousands of dollars, I’m like, do they have a book and I’m gonna go read it?

RORY (18:53)
Yeah, and I think, you know, this is a good question. How do, ⁓ excuse me, what is the difference between personal brand awareness and personal brand authority? And I think that’s part of what you’re talking about, right? Awareness is like, okay, a lot of people see me, but authority means people actually trust you enough to buy from you. And when you look at what are the resources, what are the assets that you can create that create personal brand authority that

actually make people want to buy from you. The number one thing on the list, and this is in our national research studies, is 61 % of Americans say that testimonials from other customers is the most influential marketing asset that you have. The others would be a book, the other is you’re paid to speak on your topic, the other is you’re featured in media for your expertise, right? But when you look at followers, views, likes, all that stuff.

much, much, much lower because you just you can game it, you can fake it, you can buy it. And we all know that and everybody is doing that. And so it’s different where it’s like, that’s why I think people have to spend seven hours with us online before they trust us. They have to spend much longer. Whereas we know that

AJ (19:54)
And we all know that.

longer.

RORY (20:11)
you can do, we often say that the fastest way to take a complete stranger and turn them into a lifelong fan is a world-class one-hour presentation. We know that in an offline environment, the trust happens much, much faster. And so getting in front of humans and even like a live webinar is gonna be ⁓ such a more trust-accelerating experience than just a bunch of kind of like loosely connected videos.

AJ (20:36)
I agree. And I think that’s one of the things that’s really important. Micro content may get you followers. It may get you likes. It might get you shares. I have often found it’s not going to produce revenue.

It’s like it’s a part of a formula. It’s like you’ve got to get them to start engaging with you. Then they have to start following with you. But then at some point you have to move them off the platform and into your email list so that you can then invite them to some longer engagement, a free webinar, a free audio thing, a free, whatever it is. And that relationship has got to continue into longer forms of content.

uh, where there can be a real trust transfer, but that’s not going to happen in 30 to 60 second reels.

RORY (21:20)
Mm Yeah. By the way, so if you’re listening, if you haven’t yet, you can download our audiobook at free brand audiobook.com slash podcast. So wealthy and well known at the New York Times bestseller list last year, we give up. This is why we give our audiobook away for free is it’s like, it’s the fastest way for someone to figure out is brand builders a fit for me? And can they really help me? And do we kind of align philosophically? And that’s why we give it out because we know that if we haven’t met someone face to face, they got to spend some time and they’ll and and so we

give that resource.

AJ (21:51)
And ironically, it’s about seven hours. Seven ⁓ hours.

RORY (21:54)
That’s right.

Okay, here’s another question and then we’ll go to the community question. How do thought leaders consistently get booked, featured, and referenced without chasing opportunities? So, if we’re saying, okay, getting booked to speak on stages, getting cited in the media, ⁓ if those are things that lead to true authority, true trust,

building transaction accelerating authority. How do thought leaders go get booked on those things without chasing opportunities?

AJ (22:29)
I would not necessarily say that thought leaders aren’t chasing opportunities.

RORY (22:34)
I’m gonna say the same. The air is in.

AJ (22:38)
the question.

The errors in the question. like, I’m going, ⁓ no, if you want to be out there, then you are out there selling and promoting yourself. You are marketing of why you should be a trusted resource. You are selling yourself. You are pitching yourself. You are putting yourself out there and making yourself available. This whole idea of they’re not chasing opportunities. And somehow magically people are just emailing them and calling them and DMing them of going, I don’t, know you’ve never reached out to us before, but you know, I randomly found you.

like that’s not not happening. And that’s the best

RORY (23:13)
The best speakers in the world are not sitting at home manifesting speaking gigs. They are out hustling, talking to people, writing books, producing content, building relationships, giving referrals, crushing it on stage, staying late, asking who do you know, sending pitches. Like if you are above chasing opportunities, you’re just never going to find opportunities. And like you might find a few, like a few may find you, but that is not going to be that’s not going to be the key to building your career.

You want this, you have to go chase it. You have to go knock it.

AJ (23:45)
down. But

I do think it’s one of those things like, you know, it’s, we say this all the time, the more you speak, the more you speak. And that’s because the more that you’re putting yourself out there, the more that you’re chasing the opportunities and saying, yes, when it’s right, and it’s aligned and putting yourself in the right opportunities and the right positions to be seen, to be noticed, to be heard, ⁓ then naturally, there is a momentum that starts to build. But again, like anything, when you stop it, the momentum stops too.

So I do think there’s this interesting thing where it’s like, I only have to do this for a little while and then it’s going to catch. And it’s like, well, it could catch for a minute. But I can’t think of anyone that we know who is uber successful in this space doing something that has lasted over the decades that isn’t continually putting effort out there into keeping that engine moving.

RORY (24:38)
Totally.

Even I remember in grad school, there was this this case study about Coca-Cola and they were talking about however many hundreds of millions and billions they spend on advertising every year. I think it was like 80 million dollars a year on advertising. is 20 years ago. But and somebody asked the CEO like, you’re Coca-Cola. You don’t need to advertise. Like, why do you spend 80 million dollars a year in advertising? He’s like, if we didn’t spend 80 million dollars on advertising, it’s like a car. No matter how good a car is, it still needs fuel to run. Like that is the fuel.

This I’m going to say something that’s going to make a lot of people upset, but you heard it here first. A creator’s favorite form of creative avoidance is creating. A creator’s favorite form of creative avoidance is creating. They love to create, create, create, create, and they never tell anyone they exist. And if you’re not willing to go chase and you’re not willing to talk about, if you don’t care so passionately about your calling that you’re not going to share it with anyone, like you’re going to struggle. You’re just going to struggle.

AJ (25:38)
But that

kind of comes back to what we said in the very beginning. It’s like, yeah, it does take a lot of time, energy, resources, and money to even figure out this social media thing. It’s like you do have to chase it, right? It is an engine that requires fuel. It requires your content, your creativity, your constant adjusting and flexing with what the algorithm is doing, what the market is doing. So again, the idea of set it and forget it, that’s just not the world that we’re living in online or offline.

All right, let’s move on to the community question. Yes, so

is one of our favorite parts of the show because we get to take a question that has been voted on by our BBG community. All of the questions were input, the community voted on. This was the top one and that’s what we’re gonna answer today. So here it is. Here’s what’s been selected. It’s from Tiffany. I’ve been posting content consistently for eight months. I have a clear niche.

Decent production quality and I genuinely believe in what I’m teaching. But my growth has flatlined at around 800 followers and I can’t figure out what’s missing. I feel like I’m doing everything the gurus say to do, but something isn’t clicking. What’s the one invisible thing I’m probably not seeing that’s keeping me stuck at this ceiling?

RORY (27:10)
two ways to grow on social media, Tiffany. One is organic, the other is paid. The thing that you’re not seeing is what it actually takes to grow with either of those strategies. To grow organically requires a team or a lot of time, understanding and monitoring viral patterns. You’ve got to study what the other it’s not just what you’re saying. It’s not what you’re saying. It’s how you’re saying it is probably the format. It’s the presentation of it. It’s the structure. It’s the hook.

And as AI takes off, more creators are soaking up more of the attention because they’re spending their time and they’re developing their teams developing tools to ⁓ reproduce those hook structures and those hook patterns. So that’s one thing.

AJ (27:52)
before you move on to the next, because mine is connected to that, it’s the key words in this that stuck out to me is for eight months. And there’s just a part of that where I know we all want it to be done now and eight months might feel like a long time, but it’s not. And eight months is just the beginning. And if you have gone from zero to 800 months,

our 800 followers in eight months, that’s a hundred new followers every month. And if you’re not putting ad spin behind it and you’re like, I’m just doing what I’m figuring out. It’s like, I’d be pretty proud of that. All right. Like that, that’s not what you probably want to hear, but I would just encourage it’s like, if you had said, I’ve been doing this consistently in this way for this long for five years and I’m stuck, I’d be like, okay, there’s a problem, but this is eight months and nothing is going to have monumental explosive success.

in this world at this current state of things with eight months.

RORY (28:48)
Yeah, that’s a good

word. That’s a good word. The other way to grow on social media is paid. And that’s what you’re not seeing. The people who are growing massively are paying for it. They’re not buying fake followers, but they are paying lots of money. I’m talking tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars every month.

to show their content to more people. So they’re hiring expensive crews, they have expensive equipment, they have expensive, they got teams that are doing research, and then they’re building, they’re building teams, and they’re pushing money in the front because they have a business model in the back that pays for it. That’s a part of what we teach people how to do a brand builders group is to go, okay, how do you put

$100,000 in the machine is you can do that as long as you know there’s 250,000 coming out the back end. Now we teach our clients to grow without paid ads, right? That’s not a huge part of our strategy until later later down the road. But that’s the thing that you’re not seeing when people are growing and it looks effortless. One, it’s not effortless. And two, there’s probably a ton of money. And many of the biggest creators, okay, not to expose the secret. Many of the biggest creators are spending

millions of dollars just promoting and boosting and pushing their content in front of more people. And that’s going to continue to happen. And so the future of marketing is not about who has the best content. It’s about who has the most sophisticated system. And if you are someone who wants to learn how to build a more sophisticated system, go to freebrandcall.com slash podcast, you can request a call with our team, we’ll do an intake to see where you’re at and we’ll create a

a custom journey for you of what you need to do to take the next steps to grow your business and also to determine if we might be a fit as a partner to help you in that journey. But it is frustrating and it is discouraging and it’s hard and it’s hard. It’s hard for us. It’s hard for everybody. It’s a dogfight right now.

AJ (30:46)
It’s discouraging when you’re comparing your numbers to someone else’s. And when you’re focused on, I have impacted and I have grown from zero to 800 people who are now absorbing my content, getting value from my content. I am now serving 800 people that I wasn’t eight months ago. It’s not discouraging at all. It’s actually quite encouraging. The only part’s discouraging is when you’re comparing your step one to someone else’s step 1,000. And that’s the hard part about the online world.

Is it so easy to look at everyone else’s doing and think that what you’re doing doesn’t matter? But those 800 people, they do matter. Those aren’t followers. Those are human beings. And I would be encouraged if I were you.

RORY (31:29)
love that. Well, ⁓ if those 800 people were in a room right now, you certainly would be that’s right be fired up and impacting them. So hey, send this episode to somebody that you know that you think might enjoy it. And if you’ve been listening for a while, we’d love for you to rate comment review this show wherever you listen to it. We’re so glad you’re here. Keep coming back. We’re going to encourage you and we’re going to hopefully inspire you and share with you the strategies that are working to help you get your mission out to more people. We’ll catch you next time.

AJ (32:03)
We don’t want you to be invisible.

RORY (32:05)
So hit subscribe.

WWK Ep 018: Quit Now! If You Won’t Invest in Your Dream…

speaker-1 (00:00)
I’m sorry, but if you can’t come up with a few thousand dollars to invest in your dream, then quit your dream now. Because if you’re not spending that money and time with us, then what are you spending it on? And I go, if you’re not doing it, like you’re not gonna make it.

speaker-0 (00:20)
I want to say something to a very specific type of person who is listening to this episode today. You know you’re capable. You know that there’s a calling on your life. You know you have the experience and the expertise to make a real difference in lives of people that need.

to need to hear from you and only the way that you can share. But somewhere along the lines, you’ve begun to drift. You’ve begun to not believe in yourself. You’ve begun to give up on your dream. You’ve begun to stop doing things that you used to do. And really what’s happening is you’ve begun to give up on yourself and the dream and the calling that you have on your life. And I don’t believe that it’s an accident that you’re listening to this episode today. This episode is

for you, the person who has begun to drift to fall away from the calling on your life and hopefully today is a call back to that calling so that you can get back on with your dream. So Rory, this is a unique episode of really a wake-up call to the person who is giving up on the calling, on their audience, on themselves, up on their dream. And so I’d love to just start with you as like, what do you think

that person needs to hear today to be reinvigorated to get back to the work that they used to find with vigor and passion and excitement that now just feels pointless and exhausting.

speaker-1 (01:50)
Yes. I mean, if you had a dream, and you’re feeling discouraged, the first thing that I want you to know is that you’re normal. It doesn’t mean there’s something wrong with you. I think there is a mental part of this of like, we need a motivational kick in the pants. And then there is a psychological part of understanding how the human brain works. And I hope we talk about both of those things today. And I want to start

with the psychological part in terms of why you’re normal. The human brain is not designed for success. The human brain is designed for survival. And there’s a big difference between success and survival. To survive means to stay safe. To survive means to conserve energy. To survive and stay alive means to do what is not risky, to do things that are predictable.

Everything about survival is about safety. What does it mean to be successful? Almost exactly the opposite.

Success is about doing things that make you uncomfortable. Success is about doing new things. Success is about taking chances. Success is about doing things you’ve never done before. And so if you’re feeling discouraged, it doesn’t mean there’s something wrong with you. It doesn’t mean that God doesn’t have it, you know, in your destiny to be successful. It doesn’t mean that your calling isn’t important. It doesn’t mean that you’re not qualified. It means that you have a perfectly functioning

healthy, normal human brain, but that that normal human brain is pulling you to safety and security and comfort and predictable. And you’re just experiencing the tension between

the way that your brain is designed first and foremost to keep you alive and you becoming the person you need to be, which is somebody that is comfortable being uncomfortable, somebody who is willing to do things that other people don’t do, someone who is willing to do things that you don’t like doing or don’t feel like doing just because they’re new things. So you’re in the middle of an important journey. You’re not backwards. You’re not behind.

You’re right where you’re supposed to be, but you are at a point where you got to decide, you going to turn back to the way you’ve always done things, or are going to follow the calling and keep going forward? And I think today’s episode is about helping make sure you keep going forward.

speaker-0 (04:25)
Alright, so I have a personal question for you. Yeah, I don’t think I know the answer to this.

speaker-1 (04:27)
personal question.

It’s like date night. On

date night we try to ask questions to each other that we don’t know the answer

speaker-0 (04:36)
Is there something that you have given up on in your life that you truly quit that you look back now and you really regret?

speaker-1 (04:45)
Wow, yeah, that’s a deep one, babe. Say it again.

speaker-0 (04:50)
⁓ Is there

something in your life that you truly gave up on that you quit that looking back now you really regret that you didn’t see it through?

speaker-1 (04:58)
No, ⁓ there’s not. And I know that’s not the like empathetic answer and like, but it’s there is not. There’s some like crazy dreams that I have, know, like, ⁓ you know, I’ve always had a dream of like a TV show for speakers like ⁓

speaker-0 (04:59)
Wow.

No, but

I mean something that you actually-

speaker-1 (05:17)
Yeah, like something

real. mean, the closest thing would be not winning the world championship of public speaking. You know, that was something I really, really wanted. And I came in second in the world. And, you know, it’s like, you know, I could have gone back and do it, but I realized it really wasn’t about the title. It was about the person who became the process. So

speaker-0 (05:38)
Do you regret

going back a third time? do you wish that like hindsight 2020? It’s like, no, I wish I would have gone back and tried for.

speaker-1 (05:46)
first.

don’t. don’t. And I think that’s actually an important part of the conversation of this is to go my life, you know, early on, it was like trying to achieve destinations.

And it was really about like, want to conquer this thing. And I think as I’ve studied success more and tried to adapt it in my own life, I really embraced the idea that it’s like, it’s actually not about the destination. It’s about who I’m becoming in the process. ⁓ You know, as the famous philosopher Miley Cyrus once said, it’s all about the climb. ⁓ And so I think that’s relevant.

It’s not that I haven’t failed. mean, that would be an example. I guess you technically could say I failed to reach that goal. But what didn’t fail was my ultimate destination was I wanted to become one of the best speakers in the world. didn’t it wasn’t the world championship that was the finish line. It was inspiring people and changing them and setting that up. And in many ways, I we’ve been able to do that. And there’s still another level to that that I’m still pursuing. But there’s not a finish line to that. And so I think a part of

what you have to do is you have to learn to fall in love with the daily grind. have to fall in love with the idea that

I’m going to experience losses along the way or what people would call losses. I didn’t get that. I wanted to have a number one New York Times bestseller. We’ve hit the New York Times twice now, neither time number one. I would have loved to do that, but it’s like, ⁓ it wasn’t really about, that’s not what writing a book is about. It’s not about the number one New York Times bestseller. It’s about writing a book that changes the world, forwards our business, codifies what we believe in, and those things are all

available and more meaningful. And so I think sometimes people get discouraged because like they didn’t get the result. you know, we did a big launch recently and it was like, I would have loved to have a better result. But we had effective progress. And so I think that is a psychological switch that people need to flip in their brain to go,

Yes, I’m moving towards results, but what I’m really interested is strengthening my character, creating better processes, enforcing consistency, knowing that even though I didn’t get on paper the W, the win that I wanted in the way I got the win, the long term is the game that I’m playing and I’m on track for that as long as I don’t quit. So I haven’t ever quit something that

like I was in the middle of just because it was hard or just because it wasn’t going the way I wanted. I can’t honestly say that I have. I’ve gotten close to quitting.

speaker-0 (08:48)
What number did take the stairs? Do you think that’s a coincidence?

speaker-1 (08:50)
Number two, New York Times.

I’ve thought about this a lot. So I got number two, world champion of public speaking, number two for Take the Stairs. There was a college, ⁓ you know, in college there was an award called the Student Excellence Award that I won at one time. I was the runner up for that. I did end up winning that two years later. But ⁓ it’s possible that there’s a coincidence to it because I think part of how I view this is anytime I don’t

get what I want. I view that as both a question of my own motives, of like, did I really want to help people or did I really want something for me? And the other thing I use it as a question of is a question of faith, of do I trust God because God sent me in a direction but it didn’t actually come true.

like in the way I thought it was going to come true, in the way I wanted it to come true. ⁓ And so, I think that’s a test of faith is to go, will you continue going forward? Will you continue to trust me even though what you’re experiencing right now in this moment is not the way you would have drawn it up? To me, that’s the very essence of faith.

speaker-0 (09:51)
and the way you.

Yeah. And I share that because I’ve often thought about that, you know, too, of, know, the way we want success often looks different than the way that God sees success. And for the person who’s, you know, on the verge of giving up or quitting, how much of that really does come down to is I just didn’t think it would look like this. I thought it would be different than this. I thought it would be easier than this, or I thought this would have happened. And because our own expectations, which were founded in nothing really,

other than what we wanted, aren’t met in the exact way that we wanted.

speaker-1 (10:47)
That’s, mean, look, the difference between gratitude and frustration can be explained simply with frustrations, right? If my expectation level is here and what I’m experiencing is above that, I experience gratitude. If my expectation level is here and what I’m experiencing is below that, I experience frustration. The only difference is where is the expectation, right? And so, I think when people place expectations on God, on themselves, on other people,

speaker-0 (11:14)
success, marriage,

speaker-1 (11:15)
where you think

you’re supposed to be at this age, where you think you’re supposed to be, you know, at this many years in the business, you’re setting an expectation level, again, basically based on nothing or typically on comparison, which is even worse. And, and that’s where your emotions are coming from, is this baseless set of expectations. Now, I try to hold myself to high standards.

But I have low expectations, right? It’s like I’m sort of pleasantly surprised with whatever result we do get even if it’s beneath and that’s a concept. Everything we’re talking about here, by the way, is inside of the Take the Stairs book, right? This is like what I built my career on because that’s what I built my life on. And there’s a section in Take the Stairs, which is my first book for those of that don’t know, where I talk about

Successful people put their self-esteem in their work habits, not in their results. And it’s one of the most defining characteristics because even if you’re a top performer,

If you experience low self-esteem because you didn’t get the result you wanted, then you’re going to quit at some point. But if you’re a low performer who just goes, I’m just focusing on my work ethic, I’m controlling what I can control, I’m getting better, then over the long haul, it’s going to work out. And, you know, I don’t mean to over-spiritualize it, but you know this. My life verse is Hebrews 12-11, which says that,

of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it. And I’ve put my faith in that verse my whole life to say, what feeling good right now is not an essential criteria or measurement or determinant of my success. It’s actually completely irrelevant to my success because God’s Word tells me, common sense tells you,

Ultra-performers will corroborate, as will data, that in the long term, if you do the fundamentals, that ultimately you will reap a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it. And I look back on my life and go, man, lots of seasons have been hard, but I look at where I am and I go, well, I don’t know how else to describe what I’m experiencing other than a harvest of righteousness and peace.

speaker-0 (13:42)
Yeah, I think I love that take on it. And I love that you’re able to look back and go, hey, there was nothing really that I gave up on. And there was nothing that I didn’t follow through. ⁓ For the person, unfortunately, I can’t say that I was like making a mental list. like, I have like a page full of things.

speaker-1 (14:00)
I mean, I’m curious. Yeah, now I’m curious about what…

speaker-0 (14:02)
Like, well, I know, where do

you want to start? But it’s like as I was reflecting and thinking of like, why did I not see dance through? Because you know, I was in a company, right? I was a dancer for 13 years. I just I realized, like I was thinking, it’s like, I just didn’t want it as bad as the other girls did. I was more concerned with, am I going to be available for social hour? ⁓ You know, and I think a lot of that had to do with insecurities of really wanting to be liked and really wanted to be in the in group. ⁓

And what I regret is that I let down my company.

I regret that I didn’t practice as hard as they did and that I was not as prepared as they were. I some of them went on to Juilliard and the Atlanta School of Ballet. Like they were very good because they practiced really hard. I didn’t have that level of commitment as a young teenager. I just didn’t. have like a long list of things that I’m like, I wish I probably would have saw that through and that went through. I was a different person then. And that’s not who I am today. But I would, I think we’re

My question is, is for the person who’s going like, yeah, maybe I just don’t want it as bad as I used to.

speaker-1 (15:10)
you.

That I think is a fair question because because you asked me and I say like, I would describe myself as someone that I have an extremely I have always had an extremely high level of commitment and focus to a very few small number of things. Right. And and so the paradox principle of sacrifice from take the stairs says, okay, how do people pull themselves through the muck? How do you endure the pain?

about that. ⁓ So when you ask that question, what is what must I do in order to endure the suck of achieving the goal? And it’s simple, you leverage long term vision to endure short term sacrifices. That’s it. So if someone is struggling with discipline, a lot of times people will say, Rory, I’m struggling with a lack of discipline. But in reality,

It’s not that they’re struggling with a lack of discipline as much as they’re struggling with a lack of vision. In other words, discipline becomes dormant in the absence of a dream. If I have a clear vision and it’s the vision I really want and I spend time thinking about it and I allow myself the permission to dream about it coming true,

then it creates a naturally strong connection. Think of it like a safety line, right? Like ⁓ that is pulling me through all of the muck it takes to get there. Inversely or conversely, if I don’t have a clear vision of what I want or…

I it’s fuzzy or I have a vision but I don’t really want it that bad or I have a vision and I don’t think about it that often or I have a vision but I don’t allow myself the permission to have it because I think it’s really unrealistic because it is unrealistic for all of us at first but if you don’t have that then you don’t have a more line to pull you through the muck and so you don’t because in this instance

there’s a context for the sacrifice to take place. There’s something that I want, I’m willing to do whatever it takes to get there. In this one, there’s not anything I really want, which means my brain is gonna default to whatever is most convenient, most comfortable.

in the short term and so we don’t. And so I think that’s part of what, and this is a place where I do struggle a little bit relating with some people and I think for the most part people are like, Rory’s a nice guy, but when I coach my private clients and even if I’m coaching a young speaker, when I look at the cost of our brand builders group program, I was having this conversation recently with someone on our sales team. I go, if you, we are giving people,

what I believe is more valuable than a four-year, six-year degree in this whole space for less than the price that you would pay to take one class for one semester in college.

I believe our program legitimately is as valuable as a four-year degree if you want to be a speaker, author, coach, consultant, or if you’re an expert of any kind. And we give you the entire freaking program for less than one college class.

plus the live experiences, plus the AI bots to execute it. And I go, I’m sorry, but if you can’t come up with a few thousand dollars to invest in your dream, then quit your dream now. Because if you’re not spending that money and time with us, then what are you spending it on? And I go, if you’re not doing it, like you’re not gonna make it.

speaker-0 (19:03)
Well, that comes back to the difference of do you say you want it or do you really want it? Exactly. It’s like, do you want it bad enough? Do you really want it?

speaker-1 (19:13)
Do you want it enough to endure what it takes to get it? That’s the real question. Right? It’s like, yeah, everybody would love to have a New York Times bestseller. Okay, here’s a more, funnier example of me in the opposite, right? It’s like, so we, know, I’ve been using AI to write songs, as you know, right? And it’s like, I’d ⁓ love to be a music star. Like, I would love my songs to be all over the radio. Like, I think they’re really good. And I would love to have famous people sing the songs and get millions of dollars in royalty checks.

But I don’t love it enough to endure what I would have to do to get it. What I’d have to give up to get it, to hustle and to build the relationships with a whole new industry of people and like, you know, cannibalize the time of the vision that we’re pursuing now and everything. like, yeah, it’s like, it’s a dream. It’s not, it’s not

actually a goal. It’s not something that I’d be willing to commit to. And so because of that, it’s a hobby, right? And I go, yeah, I’ll throw a little time at it just for fun. But like, that’s the question is, do you want it? Do you want it bad enough? And I will say for many, for many people watching,

you don’t actually want it bad enough and you’re gonna get destroyed by people who do want it bad enough. And I actually think it’s an honorable decision to say, yeah, you know what, I actually don’t really want this. I thought I did, but I don’t really want it. I think that’s an honorable decision. I think you should go all in on something you genuinely care about because you can’t compete, you can’t kind of compete and play against professionals. In the world of personal branding these days, you better bring your fricking A game because you’re competing with Cody Sanchez and Alex Hormone.

and Louis Howes and Amy Porterfield and Jenna Kutcher and Ed Milet and John Maxwell and it’s like maybe you’re not playing on that level but you’re playing against people who care about their calling and I go if you can’t invest a little money and a little time to do this you might as well just give up now. That’s you know the unfriendly Roy but that’s how I honestly feel.

speaker-0 (21:15)
Why, you know, it’s interesting because I hear a lot of people talk about, you can tell Roy is heated about this topic. I have struck a chord. have struck a chord. ⁓ but people, lot of times they say, well, I’ve just, I’m so passionate about this. And I think people use that word loosely. And we talked about this here recently of like the actual definition of passion is being willing to suffer for something. And it’s like, when you say I’m passionate about something, you’re going, no, I am willing to suffer. am willing to endure. I am willing to do the

speaker-1 (21:20)
You’ve hit a

speaker-0 (21:45)
hard stuff. I am willing to be inconvenienced. I am willing to suffer, right? I want to just like highlight that word for the thing that I love.

speaker-1 (21:53)
This is why they call it the passion of the Christ. Yeah, mean, but it’s so again, it’s all spiritual.

speaker-0 (21:56)
I knew you were going to truth,

I think it’s the difference between passion versus interests, passion versus hobbies. There’s a difference there. And it’s like, are you interested in this? I eat you.

speaker-1 (22:12)
My music,

new songwriting.

speaker-0 (22:14)
passionate about this. And if you’re passionate about it, that means you can’t not do it. That means you’re willing to suffer for it. So I just, wanted to just reconcile some of the conversation to the person that we’ve, you know, kind of started with, like that you’ve begun to give up, that you’ve begun to recoil, that you’ve begun to stop doing the things. And it’s like, maybe, maybe the first thing that you can do after listening to this episode is go, ⁓ is this an interest or a passion? And perhaps there’s

There’s a line of difference that you need to recognize in this thing that you’re doing. It’s like, no, this is something I’m interested in versus this is something I’m passionate in. Because if it’s just an interest, it’s a hobby and those can come and go, right? You spend more, you spend less, but that’s different than a passion and a calling.

speaker-1 (23:03)
And I think the difference between another difference between an interest and a passion is an interest is something that works out if it’s convenient for it to work out. Like if I have some extra time, I’ll deke around with songwriting. If I post it and it takes off and goes viral and okay, great, it works out. That’s different than a passion that goes, I’m going to do whatever it takes, right?

being a speaker, becoming one of the best speakers in the world wasn’t something that I lightly did or accidentally did or stumbled my way into. It was a commitment and a focus and an endurance and it still is, right? I still feel like I’m early in my speaking career of like really where I wanna be. And by the way, I don’t think it’s dishonorable at all.

to identify something as an interest. Totally. think what you’re saying is really important is just be honest with yourself.

speaker-0 (24:01)
And I think perhaps if you’re feeling a dwindling in something, I guess what I would maybe ask you to reflect on is, was it really just an interest? Was it really just something you’d like to do? Was it a hobby versus a calling and a passion? You know, as you were talking, I was thinking, I have a good friend, his name is Dennis. And what started as something that was just a hobby and interest was pickleball. And it was something that he did for fun. Then he kind of was like, hey, I’m pretty good at this. this now it’s a social thing. He did it with his wife and he was doing it with friends. Now it’s a full.

passion. And it’s like, here’s how I know it. It’s all he wants to talk about. He’s like, Hey, you want to get together and play pickleball? It used to be, Hey, do want to get together and talk about business? It’s like, ⁓ and everything is situated around his pickleball schedule and his now tournaments, what he’s reading, what he’s watching. And it’s like, I have watched this shift from, it’s something I casually do to it’s something I’m passionate about doing. He gets up at 5am to do it before work. He’s now watching game film. He’s hired a

coach, he’s now weight training so that he can have a better spring. He’s now reading books and he just got the lottery ticket for the U S open for pickleball. It has evolved into something and it’s, and I think the reason I called on that as you were talking is like, I’ve watched a hobby turn into a passion and there’s a difference. It’s Hey, this is something I do and I have time and it’s convenient versus no, I’m willing to be inconvenienced. I will spend my money, time and energy to learn about it, to do it, to talk about it, to practice it.

And that’s

Maybe that’s just some self-reflection that you can ask yourself. It’s do I read about this in my spare time? Do I talk about it when no one else is bringing it up? Is this what I spend time thinking about or dreaming about or journaling about? Is this what I’m asking questions? Is this the content I’m following? And if the answer is no to all of those, then maybe it’s just an interest and that’s okay. But then maybe you shouldn’t be beating yourself up so much. This is just a seasonal interest or something that has come and gone versus knowing the difference between a passion.

which is something you’re willing to suffer for, a true calling on your life.

speaker-1 (26:06)
And here’s a litmus test, another litmus test to know if something is a calling and a passion or just like a hobby and an interest. If your commitment is conditional, that means it’s a hobby and if your commitment is unconditional, that means it’s a passion and a calling. To me, the metaphor I’ve been thinking about a lot and coaching myself with is a wedge. I love a wedge. A wedge forces itself into something, right? Like you prioritize

speaker-0 (26:18)
That’s good.

speaker-1 (26:36)
You a passion. You prioritize a calling. You don’t wait for the time to be available. You make it available. It wedges its way into your life, into your conversation. You don’t go, if I have time, I’ll do that. It’s like, no, I’m gonna do that and then everything else will be, if I have time, I’ll do those things.

speaker-0 (26:59)
That’s good.

All right. Well, this is a good transition into our community question, which you get to read.

speaker-1 (27:08)
question I

to read to you okay so community question ⁓

One of our favorite segments. Okay, so these are from our members that are in our brand builders group membership program. They vote on the most pressing question and then they vote up, you know, which questions they think are most applicable to them. And the one with the most upvotes is the community question. So this week it’s from Sarah. Rory and AJ, I’ve been a brand builders group client for almost two years. Thank you, Sarah. I’ve done the workshops. I know my brand. I know my message. I genuinely believe in the work I do, but I cannot stay

consistent. I’ll be on a roll for two or three weeks posting showing up making progress and then something happens. A busy season, a hard week, a vacation and I fall completely off. You’re not alone. And then the shame of falling off makes it even harder to get back up. This cycle has been going on for two years. I’m exhausted by it. How do I break it for good? Wow. What a powerful honest question. ⁓ Yeah. AJ, why don’t you just solve this one for us?

speaker-0 (28:14)
⁓ Here’s what I would say is you got to ask yourself is there something in the cyclical nature of what you’re doing that isn’t sustainable and is that why you keep falling off? ⁓ And so I think that there’s a lot of things like if I just take the more tactical approach versus the mindset and the emotional approach.

speaker-1 (28:26)
That’s good tactical.

I’m gonna take the mindset

and emotion.

speaker-0 (28:36)
I figured you might, ⁓ is it’s really more of like, Hey, are you biting off more than you can chew? And that’s why there’s an ebb and a flow. Is it not sustainable in a hard week or on a vacation week? And you got to ask yourself, it’s like, okay, well, what would need to change to make this sustainable regardless of the week?

Regardless if I’m on vacation, if it’s a hard week, if I get busy, if someone gets sick, there’s got to be something that’s sustainable no matter what. And I guess another tactical thing is like I would give yourself three versions of what consistent looks like for you. I have a my routine.

consistent, I have a low consistent week and a high consistent week. So here’s what I mean by that is on a normal routine week, this is what I do. On a low week, in other words, I would say something unexpected happens. A child is homeschooled, from school sick. There was a family emergency. It’s a vacation.

speaker-1 (29:41)
We

icepocalypse.

speaker-0 (29:43)
We

have ice pop-o-lips. In other words, what your low consistency week is, this is my bare minimum. So you’re just setting three levels of consistency for yourself. This is a routine norm that I’m going to do on a normal week. Then give yourself the permission and in a off week, then you have my bare minimum expectations.

and give yourself some grace and some peace of going, I’m going to stay consistent, but consistent looks different for me in those weeks. And then also get, but counter that with a high consistency week, is, Hey, if you have extra time, I don’t know where that comes from, but if you do, if you have extra time in a week, it’s like, Hey, on those weeks, I’m going to do this. And now you have ranges. And I think a part of having ranges is what eliminates the guilt and the shame to give yourself the grace and the compassion of going like, Hey, there’s going to be unexpected stuff that happens.

to get sick. Family members are going to fall sick. You’re going to get sick. There’s going to be vacation days. Kids are going to be out of school. There’s going to be things that happen. So give yourself like, hey, bare minimum expectations are going to happen on my unexpected weeks. My norm is this. And when I have that extra time, if it ever comes, then this is what it’s going to look like for me. And that’ll give you permission to ebb and flow through all those without feeling guilt and shame while still staying consistent.

speaker-1 (31:00)
That’s good, that’s good.

For you Sarah that asked this question and anyone who is struggling with consistency where you’re on and then you’re off and you’re on and you’re off, you say this cycle has been going on for two years and I’m exhausted by it. How do I break it for good? Part of what I would say Sarah is I think you need to reframe this. You’re saying I’m exhausted by it. When I read this, I’m energized by it. You’re talking about how you keep coming back. You’re talking about how you’ve been in for two years. You’re talking about how you’re fighting. You’re talking about how you have over

overcome shame and gotten back on the horse. I’m not exhausted by this. I’m energized by this. This isn’t necessarily something that you have to break for good. This is just you’re building the muscle that it takes. Like you have to rethink how you’re thinking about it. And I think that the, you know, the devil plants these seeds of doubt like, ⁓ this isn’t working. You’re inconsistent. No, that’s what he’s saying because you’re almost there. You’re on track. Like you are doing the

thing. So just it’s you have to you have to celebrate what you are doing and not be so focused about what you’re not doing. Look, this whole episode is been about helping you understand that you may not get the wins and you might have to slow down. You might have to slow to a crawl. Just don’t stop. Just don’t quit. Progress over perfection.

Like the victory is not in whatever expectation you’ve got in your mind of what consistency looks like. The victory is that you have been facing rejection and difficulty and you keep going. That means you’re winning. That doesn’t mean you’re losing. That means you’re winning. Keep going. Keep going. Slow down if you must, but don’t you quit, Sarah.

speaker-0 (32:52)
Yeah, and I would just, I would add to that. It’s like, this is a good reminder of how muscle is built. Muscle has to be broken down before it can be built up, right? And that is literally what you’re saying here. It’s like in order to get stronger, there has to be things that are broken down and every single time you get back on and you do it again, it’s gonna get a little bit easier and you’re gonna get a little stronger. This is a reframe. This is not exhaustion. This is growth. This is ⁓ being energized. And I love that reframe.

Y’all, everyone who’s listening, I would just encourage you, like, if this message resonates with you, one, would you just save it and come back to it on those days when you feel defeated and go, no, I need to go back and listen to this motivational pep talk from Rory Vaden of why I gotta keep going and I can’t give up.

Or maybe you’re listening to this and you’re going, this episode was built for this person I know. I have to share it with them. They’re on the verge of giving up on something. I need to share it with them. Would you just do us a favor? Do them a favor and share this episode with someone that you know that this could help give them just enough spark to keep going. And while you’re at it,

If you wouldn’t do us, or if you wouldn’t mind doing us a favor and subscribe to this so that you can get those constant reminders and tips to keep going the strategies that you need, but also the heartfelt personal experience and motivation that what you do matters. so subscribe this, share this with a friend and come back next time to hear me and Rory talk it out on the wealthy and well-known podcast.

Keep going. Keep going. going. And subscribe. And keep.

speaker-1 (34:30)
Going. Keep. Going. Keep going.

That’s great.

Ep 017: More Money, More Problems? How Entrepreneurs Prevent Burnout

AJ (00:00)
gonna start by quoting Biggie Smalls. Mo money, mo problems. that’s not just a line in a rap song. Mo money, mo problems. You got mo stuff to…

RORY (00:09)
This

is why I this is I fell in love with you, babe.

Many, many entrepreneurs burn out because they don’t take care of themselves. They don’t follow the rhythms, the routines, and the priorities that we’re gonna be talking about on today’s episode. As an entrepreneur, business owner, like you, have to maintain your health and optimize your wellbeing, both mentally and physically. So we’re gonna talk about some of those ideas for how to do that with both myself, Rory Vaden, co-founder of Brand Builders Group.

I’m joined by my wife, my business partner and our CEO at Brand Builders Group, AJ Vaden. So excited to have this conversation, babe.

AJ (00:53)
Yeah, I think this is a good opportunity for reminders and refreshers for the both of us. And so as we’re reminded of all the things that work and what we should be doing, everyone else will get the benefits. ⁓

RORY (01:07)
There are some

topics that we teach that we do a really good job of and there’s other topics where it’s like we’re working progress. But I want to start the conversation with understanding why is it so stressful to be a CEO or and to be an entrepreneur? I think a lot of entrepreneurs, whether they’re just starting out or if they’ve been doing it for 30 years, I think there is this sort of destructive, limiting belief that a lot of them have that it’s like

AJ (01:13)
We’re working.

RORY (01:34)
shouldn’t be so hard and why is this so hard and if it’s this hard I must, you know, I must suck. Like I must be doing everything wrong or like everybody on my team is wrong or like just like this is terrible or it’s not God’s design. But you know when you zoom out I look at entrepreneurs on the whole and I go no this is kind of just like a hazard of the job. ⁓ And so I would love your perspective and opinion on why is it so stressful? Like what makes

the function and role of a CEO stressful. And then maybe we can try to first understand what is kind of normal ish, and then what is really like abnormal and then we can talk about the routines and rhythms for how to how to manage it all.

AJ (02:16)
Yeah, I think I would actually start with.

a not so often talked about shift from entrepreneur to CEO. Because as an entrepreneur, you typically start with doing everything. And so I liken to talk about there’s really two different definitions of CEO. And in the entrepreneur seat, a CEO is really the chief everything officer. do everything. They make the sales, they send the invoices, they pay the bills, they do the bookkeeping, they do the delivery, they

do the ideation, the execution, they do the marketing, and then eventually they hire someone and then someone else and then someone else and then someone else. But an entrepreneur starts as CEO, chief everything officer. And it’s really hard to make the leap from chief everything officer to chief executive officer. And I think there’s a, that’s just not discussed of when does everything start to fall off your plate.

And in what order does everything fall off your plate? So at some point you actually do become a CEO, which is chief executive officer, which means you’re making executive decisions. You’re not paying the bills anymore. You’re not sending the invoices. you’re not the one who is making every job post or delivering every client or having every sales call. And sometimes that shift happens quickly. And I say quickly, I mean, over five to 10 years, sometimes that shift never happens because the CEO,

entrepreneur wasn’t able to release things from their plate rather willingly ⁓ by choice or even by force.

And I think there’s a lot of that is your identity gets caught up in it. Or you just get so used to being so busy, you don’t know what to do with yourself if you don’t have all that stuff to do anymore. And I think there’s a lot of different things or you tried to pass it off and it didn’t work or someone left and then you live in the mindset of, I tried it once, it didn’t work, I’ll never do it again. Lots of things don’t work the first time. That doesn’t mean we don’t try again. But I think a lot of us live in that seat.

RORY (04:22)
So the I love this distinction between the chief everything officer, which is really an entrepreneur, CEO is a fancy title to a true chief executive officer. There seems to be stress at both places, though, like, you know, you people might think, if I was a true if I became a real CEO, and I had a bunch of people on my team to just do everything, I wouldn’t have stress and that at least not been my experience or observation that that is really what happens. It’s it’s like new levels, new devils ⁓ that

that kind of thing. what are some of the stressors that you think are normal that are kind of like, yeah, you’re going to experience this if you’re an entrepreneur or if you’re a CEO. ⁓ And then what are some of the things that maybe you try to go like, yeah, maybe this is where it is unhealthy or

AJ (05:14)
Yeah,

I think there’s two things that I would like to highlight. gonna start by quoting Biggie Smalls. ⁓ Mo money, mo problems. And that’s not just a line in a rap song. Mo money, mo problems. You got mo stuff to…

RORY (05:31)
This

is why I this is I fell in love with you, babe. Let’s talk about being a CEO by quoting Biggie Smalls. That’s my woman.

AJ (05:39)
But there is

some truth and it’s like you got my money you go have more problems And I think there’s a lot to that and people just think if I could just hit this revenue mark if I can just hit this net profit Mart if I just hit these income levels and as like well those come with more Responsibilities they come with more decisions they come with more more complexity and then they come with the second thing which is more people more problems Mm-hmm, right and I say that lovingly I love our team and I choose to have a team that’s not for everyone and I

think a lot of entrepreneurs don’t know that they don’t want a before they have one.

They realize it after the fact. Not everyone was meant to have a business where they manage a lot of team. that’s it. That’s it. That’s a choice. Like you have to have a love and a passion of building, growing, leading people to do that really well. And there’s a difference between why a lot of people became entrepreneurs because they didn’t want to work for someone else or they didn’t want to have to do, but it’s like you’re like, if you’re going to grow a business, you’re going to have to work with other people. Right. And those are your team. And so I think a lot of people get into this because they wanted freedom and flexibility and

They wanted to do their own thing and it’s like, well, once you start adding people and systems in place, well, some of that starts to shift because now there’s a team dynamic and you don’t get to make every decision on your own anymore because it impacts other people and their livelihoods and their families. And so I think there’s a lack of reckoning with that before you realize, ⁓ I’m growing. have to have more people. Wait, do I want more people? I don’t know. And I think a lot of us grow for the sake of we think growth is what we should do versus growing is what we want to do. ⁓

And I think a lot of that just comes from comparison and other issues. But I think this whole idea, like, you know, to what you were saying is what are some of the stressors that happen? And I think it’s like stress is going to come when you’re trying to do more than you’re capable of doing. And I say capable in terms of capacity. ⁓ And I think that we all have different levels of capacity.

And when you’re trying to do more than what you have capacity for is when stress comes. And I think it’s good for us all to remember, I think we use the term stress as negative. There are two different types of stress. There is a good stress, and then there is a bad stress. There is a stress that is good and healthy.

And then there is a stress that is not healthy and that is continued stress. There are some parts of quote unquote, term stress that are actually good and healthy. Biologically speaking, ⁓ they get us moving. get us doing things. They create awareness. It’s, but those prolonged are not good. it’s

RORY (08:17)
build muscle, build resilience and

AJ (08:24)
Daily minute stress, no problem. It just does that continue and compound day over day, week over week with no relief. And that’s where stress becomes really unhealthy. But stress in and of itself is not a bad thing. It’s just when it takes over and there’s no break, there’s no relief is when that becomes a bad thing. And that comes back to, you doing more than you have capacity to do?

RORY (08:48)
Yeah. And

the people topic is one that I think is a good example to go.

having people problems is normal. It’s expected. It’s hard, but it’s a healthy normal part of running a business if you have people. You have people problems not because your people are problems, but because the inherent nature of us as people is we go on vacation, we have babies, we burn out, we get bored, we have conflict with each other, right? And there’s just a natural like set of conflict, I think,

that comes from having a group of humans trying to do anything in close proximity. And that in and of itself, I think is an important realization for an entrepreneur to know, just like you’re saying is to go, if you’re bringing on people, you need to understand one, there’s going to be dynamics and challenges, there’s going to be amazing opportunity and growth that comes, but you’re signing up for increased complexity and some amount of challenges that are outside of your control. And you really have to

care about them and their their overall development as part of this.

AJ (10:00)
that what

you need to recognize is that as you bring on a team, you have to choose to become a leader, a leader of people. And it’s a, you’re adding on a whole new set of tasks and responsibilities from entrepreneur to entrepreneur to now I’m also adding in leader, leader of people. And those are ironically different.

RORY (10:24)
That is so good. Those are different. That is so true. You don’t have to be an entrepreneur. You don’t have to be a leader to be an entrepreneur. ⁓ you don’t necessarily, you don’t have to be an entrepreneur to be a leader. But the moment that you choose to scale a business and bring on people, you must also be a leader.

AJ (10:46)
You’re bringing on a whole new job and set of skills that I don’t think people recognize. ⁓ in other words, when it was just you or you and one person, it’s like, maybe you didn’t have to have so much formality such as one-on-one meetings or processes or systems or documentation and policies and, ⁓ benefits and, ⁓ team meetings. And it’s like, well, that all creates structure and guess what? That all takes time. And you didn’t double your time. You didn’t double your capacity.

And all of a sudden all these new things are creeping in and the old things haven’t come off. And that’s what I’m talking about with capacity. And so I think there’s a lot where that stress really starts to grow as we keep adding, adding, adding, and nothing falls off.

RORY (11:32)
Now.

I think, you know, it’s sort of a law of nature that if something is healthy, it grows. Right. ⁓ And I think I’ve always felt like if a business is healthy, it should generally be growing, barring like, you know, really crazy circumstances. And so that means there’s always going to be some stress, like your growth is always some level of stress. So the conversation shifts to going, OK, what can we do to manage that stress?

load as you’re saying some of it is healthy some of it’s unhealthy but there’s always stress there like if you’re growing there is stress.

AJ (12:11)
But not always bad, but yes. And even if you’re not growing their stress.

RORY (12:13)
huh. Yeah, so.

That’s right. Yeah.

If you’re if you’re declining, there’s there’s even more stress. Yeah, like there’s there’s there’s stress there too. So what are some of the practices? Yeah, the rituals that either you’ve done, you’ve seen other people do you’ve learned from that helped you sort of maintain? You know, we say in our new book, that peace is the new profit. ⁓ How have you tried to like, maintain that from a practical

AJ (12:41)
Yeah,

well, I would just say that if you relate to feeling like, yeah, I have way more work to do than I have hours in the day and I have zero capacity and I have to work on nights and I have to work on weekends and yeah, I’m exhausted. It’s like, well, I can relate to you. And I would just say you most likely can’t solve it on your own. So I’d say most of what I’m going to share, I have learned through lots of outside help, coaches, conferences, masterminds, mentors, ⁓ reading, know, prayer,

like this is not something that just comes.

RORY (13:16)
And if people don’t know

this about you and me, you’re a personal development junkie. Totally. We are personal development junkie.

AJ (13:22)
Totally.

⁓ Like one of the core values at Brain Builders Group is personal growth, i.e. personal development. So yes, I’m a huge advocate of it and apparently in this area, I’ve had to do it a lot for it to finally stick.

RORY (13:38)
Plus you’re

married, you’re married, you’re you have the extra blessing of being married to someone who adds a little extra stress along the way just just to keep you.

AJ (13:46)
But

here’s something that I have found. Now I’m a part of EO Nashville, the entrepreneurs organization here in Nashville. And I’ve had the immense privilege to have the same forum, which is like a small group within EO for 10 years. we’ve seen marriages come and go, businesses come and go, ⁓ business divorces. We’ve seen family members come and go. And it’s been a very deep relationship. And one of the things that I have seen

More that we’ve seen, you know, mergers, acquisitions and exits. So I’m just saying like first hand, real life, all the things, ⁓ resignations and hard decisions, like all the things. And one of the things that I’ve seen that causes the most stress in all of our lives is when we constantly ponder why.

And we just, we live in this, why did that happen? Why didn’t that work out? ⁓ Why, why, why? And there’s just not near enough conversation around what am I gonna do different? How can we move forward?

And I believe that in my own personal life and in the lives of the people that I get the closest front row seat to when we ruminate and why did this happen or why is it like this or why is the business declining or why didn’t that customer buy or why did that person resign or why didn’t they file the taxes on time? Why, why, why, why, why? We’re surrounding ourselves with problems and zero solutions. We’re not even giving ourselves the opportunity to go what needs to happen next.

How do we need to move forward? And I think it’s a really important thing where it’s like, would say most of my stress is when I sit there and try to figure out why isn’t this working versus what’s the next thing I can do? What’s the one thing I can do?

RORY (15:38)
You, not everybody watching knows this, you lost your mom when you were young. Did you ask that question why you were 15 years old? Of course. Right? So did you, how does that, I mean, I’ve never heard you talk about this until this very second about this distinction. And I, as you’re saying it, I’m going, that is so true. Like why doesn’t do much?

AJ (15:50)
Don’t

It

doesn’t do anything. ⁓ It does nothing for us.

RORY (16:04)
It keeps us ruminating in nothing

like productive really.

AJ (16:10)
Because even if you find the answer as to why, until you go do something about it, nothing changes.

RORY (16:17)
Did that, so did you learn that from your mom’s past?

AJ (16:21)
No, think I don’t know. don’t know. I think that I came to a very good healthy resolution years after she died of going, I have two perspectives that I can choose to move forward with. One is, why did this happen to me?

And give a whole bunch of excuses of why I was a rebellious teenager or why I don’t do this or why this happened or why I think this way. but those, those really did feel like a lot of excuses. And I think a lot of that work happened at a personal development conference. went to landmark forum and, ⁓ I think that during that retreat, right, it was like a three day retreat. I really learned it’s like, I can rather choose to live in this. Like, why did this happen to me? Why my family? Why my mom? Why, why, why?

And I like, at the end of the day, that wasn’t doing anything for me. Or the other perspective was to go like, what can I take from this event and do something positive with it? And it was a perspective shift that I made in my early 20s of like, it really did change my heart and my stance towards bad things happening to, I don’t focus on the bad, I focus on the good. And it’s like, a bad thing happened after

15 years of good things. So why don’t I talk about all the good things? Why do I talk about this one event that was really bad and I don’t talk about the other thousands of events and moments and memories that were really good? And then that made me think about in business and in sales. I remember in like my early days in sales, if I didn’t make a sale, that was the only thing I could think about.

I didn’t think about the 20 people who signed up that day. I thought about the two who didn’t follow through. And so it was like for me, it was a full life shift around I get to choose what I focus on. The bad events or the good events. And I think that’s just a choice for all of us. In the middle of, you know, we had someone recently ⁓ resign in their role at Bremboilers Group.

Right? And it’s like, I can really just get myself up in arms of like, what am I doing wrong as a leader? And don’t, and like, don’t get me wrong. I probably had a good 16 seconds of that. And before I had to like check myself, but then I had to look around and go, oh yeah. And we have 41 people who are still here. So do I want to focus on this one person who just wasn’t a fit for where we’re at in this culture of business growth? Or do I want to focus on the 41 people who were like raising their hands, going, I’m here for it. Those are choices. Bad things happen simultaneously.

with good things all around you. And I think bad stress happens when we only focus on the bad things that are happening and we’re like, why did this, why did this, why did this? Because you could also ask yourself, why is all this good stuff happening? But we don’t do that. We ask, why is the bad stuff happening? We don’t ask, why is all this good stuff happening? And I think we have to really have a good healthy discipline of countering the two. And I just don’t think we as human beings in the current state that we live in do that naturally, do that on our own. ⁓

life coach that I talk to every month that has to like bring me back to this every month because I can’t do it on my own. I have a prayer practice and a journal practice every morning where the Lord brings me back to this every morning because I don’t do it on my own.

RORY (19:39)
Yes,

I want to talk about that. mentally speaking here, there’s a big transition of going, how do you how do you stay mentally, emotionally healthy? It’s spend less time asking why and asking more time what what can be done? ⁓ It’s spending less time going. You know what bad thing happened and going spend more time thinking about what the good things were that happened when you get.

AJ (20:07)
police

counter.

RORY (20:08)
At least counter it. I mean, coming back to your mom, that’s always resonated with me that you’ve always said, you know, I don’t think of it as I lost my mom when I was only 15. I think about it as I had 15 years with the best mom ever. ⁓ And I think that’s just that’s a choice. Like that is a choice. So that’s on the mental side. ⁓ What about the practical side, the pragmatic? Like, what are the things you do in your schedule? What are the things that

activities that you engage in? Are there any other like actionable things?

AJ (20:44)
Yes.

Yeah. So I want to talk about three very specific actionable things that I think really matter a lot when it comes to how do you prevent burnout in your own, in your own life, reduce stress and actually enjoy what you do. And I think most of us who are business owners, entrepreneurs, we did this because there was a love and a passion for it. And I think it was Mike McCalliwitz I heard who say this is the biggest threat to any small business.

is that the founder just decides they don’t want to do it anymore because it becomes too much work, too much stress, too much burnout, and they’re tired. So how do you prevent that? Because that’s definitely not why you started. And I think there’s some things you have to have in place. I think the very first thing is that you actually have to have time to think.

I think most CEOs or entrepreneurs in both categories, chief everything officer or chief executive officers. If you’re, if you run with a rhythm of meeting to meeting to meeting to meeting to meeting to meeting to meeting, you have no time to think or process. So that just means you’re just making decision after decision after decision without any time to reflect, pause, think, ideate, brainstorm, counter ask questions. And it’s just not a healthy pace to be in. Again, you can do it for a short amount of time. You can do it for a day or a day every

but it can’t be every day of every week. At some point, and I use this term a lot for myself, it’s like, you’re gonna have decision fatigue. And that happens when there isn’t time to think. So schedule time in your calendar that is for strategic thinking. And then don’t schedule over it, right?

RORY (22:28)
And are you talking about

like morning routine? Are you talking about like during the day?

AJ (22:32)
During the day, Monday, I block my calendar from 2 p.m. to 5 p.m. Every Monday. Now, for those of you who listening, another practice that I have, because I have a business partner, is that we have a Monday morning walk that is our business meeting.

RORY (22:46)
That’s me.

AJ (22:50)
So, but I think there’s two things there. One, we’re business partners, we have a weekly meeting. If you have a business partner, or even this could be your executive team, you need a weekly meeting.

That’s not with everyone, but it’s with your business partner or your executive team. And it’s a three hour meeting. It’s not a 30 minute standup. It’s not a one hour stat review. This is a three hour. What’s the most important things? What do we have to discuss? What do we need to get on the same page with? What did I do last week that I didn’t tell you or vice versa? What’s happening this week that we may or may not know about, but it’s a three hour. So think that’s the first thing. If you’re not hearing me is there is a three hour business meeting with your partner or executive team every.

RORY (23:29)
week.

And I will say we started Brand Builders Group on three hour walk around a park and

Now we have 50 employees between the three businesses almost and a lot more complexity. In every stage, there has been enough to fill a three-hour meeting every Monday and more. If you’re not spending at least that much time together, everything splinters and fractures and goes crazy and creates stress.

AJ (24:01)
and create stress. Yeah. And then

you’re trying to catch up on nights and

RORY (24:05)
Because I think when you have a business partner, even if you have an executive team, one of the causes of stress is you have people running really hard in different directions. And we’ve been guilty of that. All the time. If we don’t sync, we run so hard that we just end up like, even if we’re one degree off, we’re

AJ (24:24)
And

creates

a lot of frustration for our team because then they hear two different messages or two different areas of focus. But I want everyone to hear it’s like that’s the first thing to actually not have burnout is to have this routine meeting that you don’t miss. The second thing if you didn’t catch what I heard is it’s not in a boardroom. It’s not in a conference room. It’s not at your computer. It’s not at your desk. We do it on a walk. And I think that’s really important because this becomes more about a conversation than an agenda. ⁓ It creates freedom and flexibility.

to talk about things versus what’s next. What’s next? It’s not a PowerPoint presentation. This is a conversation. Two, I have found, this is for me, not for Rory, but moving helps keep my stress level down. So as we’re getting into things that we don’t disagree on.

RORY (25:09)
And

if your stress level is down, my stress level is down. So it is for me.

AJ (25:13)
But

these are things for like when we may not have ⁓ alignment on and I have found that being in nature Specifically in nature helps me go

RORY (25:22)
If y’all haven’t noticed AJ’s hair is really red and it’s it’s you know, it’s it’s it’s indicative of certain certain behavioral ⁓ patterns. There’s some fire some truth. There’s some truth to the fiery redhead.

AJ (25:37)
Bye.

I’m not not agreeing with that. ⁓ But being in nature helps keep me centered and remembering these conversations. These problems are very small. God is big. The world is big. This is small. God is big. The world is big. ⁓ And so, again, just a perspective shift that I don’t get in a boardroom because in a boardroom, I’m looking at stats and metrics and agendas and my mind goes elsewhere. So you got to find that. Maybe that doesn’t work for you, but those are just two things every Monday. So I start my Monday.

from 8 to 11 in a very important business meeting with my partner, but then from 2 to 5, I’m in my own meeting with myself. And that’s my strategic thinking time. And a lot of that is I put that on my calendar because there were so many things I needed to go back, write down, reflect on, take action on from my meeting with Rory.

And it’s like, also have a meeting with my chief of staff. You know, some of you may call it an EA right after my meeting with Rory. And it’s like, usually it’s like that helps me prioritize my week. And I don’t wait to the end of the week to tackle those things that happens on Monday for me. And so I have found that there are good rhythms and patterns that work really well for me. And stacking my Monday with meetings is unhealthy for me. A lot of people start, they have meeting Mondays. That’s not healthy for me. I can’t have a meeting Monday. I have to have a thinking Monday, a planning Monday.

and most of my meetings happen on Tuesdays, Wednesdays, and Thursdays. So if I’m gonna take calls and meetings, they’re never on Mondays and they’re never on Fridays. So I have themes and blocks of time for each day of the week so that I’m in a good ⁓ mental pattern of this is what I do on this day. And that has been a very healthy routine, but I don’t start the meeting.

or my Mondays with meetings because they’re crazy. And then I just start the week behind. And I think people who have the Sunday blues, right? And they’re like, tomorrow’s Monday. It’s because they know what’s coming on Monday, which is it’s a full eight hour marathon. So I didn’t want to have that. And…

That was up to me. I get to make that decision, so I don’t have a bizarre Monday. I have a very well-paced strategic meeting and then a meeting with myself to make sure that I’m well planned for the week.

RORY (27:55)
I also want to highlight one thing about the meeting that we have. ⁓ If you’re married or you work with your spouse, I want to make sure people know this is where we talk about work stuff. We do not talk about work stuff at night and on the weekend because that’s a mistake that I made for years. Yeah, we both made of like we have to have dedicated part of treating the business like a business is giving it ample space and time during the workday to talk about work stuff.

and not cramming the workday with everything else and then having the strategic stuff try to spill over into the nights and weekends. It’s not a good formula. That’s a recipe for stress, not a recipe for peace and scalability.

AJ (28:40)
was the first thing. That was a long answer. I’ll make the other two quite shorter. But the first one is just meeting rhythms and how you spend Mondays. I think Mondays set the tone for the week, at least for me. And running a company and a business and making sure I’m well planned and thought out for all the one-on-ones I’m going to have, team meetings, metrics meetings, financial reviews, whatever is happening that week, it can’t be on Monday. It’s not healthy for me. The second thing is how I start my day, right? And so think this is a really important part. It’s like if you start your day ⁓ in a tailspin, you’re going to end your day in a tailspin.

So I have a really good healthy morning routine. Your morning routine can be whatever it is, but for me, I know that between ⁓ six and seven, that has to be just my time with the Lord.

And when I have that time, I have a good day. And if I don’t get to have that day, that time with the Lord, I usually have a hard day. And it’s because I didn’t have a time to sit and reflect and be grateful and to be in the word. that just, what it does, it just sets the tone of what am I grateful for? What have I been blessed with? And anything that that’s hard that I have to face that day, I’ve already countered it with all the good that’s in my life. Bad things happen all the time, but I choose to counter it with the good things that the

word has given me by talking with him about it every morning.

RORY (29:56)
So I want to double tap on that because, you know, second nature for us at this point. like to somebody who goes, you know, I picture somebody listening to that being like, wait, you spend an hour reading Leviticus like every day? Like, how do you spend an hour reading the Bible or like what are you doing there? Like to go, that doesn’t seem, you know, exciting or maybe sleepy or whatever. know, like, ⁓ how do you how do you break that hour apart?

AJ (30:25)
If

you’re not a believer, that could be reading a personal development book or if you’re of a different faith, it’s reading whatever. So I would just say it’s your spiritual time, it’s your faith time. But mine’s a combination and I’m stealing this from the book. Jamie Winship wrote the book, Living Fearless. I was not a journaler prior to reading that book. I actually thought journaling was pointless and useless until I realized it wasn’t. It was a great revelation for me a couple of years ago when I started this practice.

⁓ But here are the prompts and I do these same prompts every single day. The first thing is I say, Lord today I’m grateful for. And then I share what I’m grateful for. And it’s sometimes the same, sometimes different. I journal just in case I forget. Right? So that’s the first thing. The second prompt is, Lord today I pray for.

RORY (31:07)
In your journal you write

AJ (31:17)
and I pray for people, pray for business, I pray for change, I pray for whatever. But those are the first two things. Then my third prompt is, Lord, what do you want to reveal to me today? Then I go to the Bible. So that’s how I start my Bible study.

RORY (31:31)
And you got, so you got those questions from Jamie.

AJ (31:34)
Well, there’s another one,

so I’m not done. okay. So, Lord, what do you want to reveal to me today? And that’s when I go to the Word. That’s when I go to Scripture. ⁓ And lo and behold, every single day, He has something to reveal to me. So then I go back to my journal and I write down what it was. Like, what stuck out to me? And I have a highlighter in my Bible, and there’s just always something that sticks out in a new and different way. It could be a verse, it could be a whole book, it could be a whole chapter, but there’s always something. And then I write it down, and then my last prompt is, Lord, what do you want me to do with that?

Not why did you reveal that, but what do you want me to do with that Lord? What’s my action item from here? And that’s how I have clarity of how to move forward in that day.

RORY (32:14)
So you’re literally having a conversation with God. Every day. Asking, what do want to reveal to me? Then you look at the Word, find the answer, and then you record the answer.

AJ (32:26)
That’s

the hour. And so it’s not like I’m reading scripture the whole time, but maybe 20 to 30 minutes of that time is like in the word reading. And I just look for guided plans. I’m not trying to figure it all on my own. I find guided plans, read through a Bible in the year. I’m doing a deep dive in a certain book, whatever it is. I find plans and I follow the plan. But here’s what I would say is important if you’re faith curious or you’re a follower. It’s like, if you go, he’ll always show you something.

And it’s always something that you need right then and there. And I just always need something. ⁓ There’s always something to learn. There’s always something to be shown. But that’s how I start my day. So my Monday routine is really important to me. My morning routine is really important to me. And then the third thing. ⁓

RORY (33:09)
hold on. So before

we get to the third thing, feel like, ⁓ forgive me, but I got to do a shout out here for the Eternal Life podcast. if any of you, if you struggle, if you’re a very logical, analytical person like I am and you struggle with faith, ⁓ that used to be me. I was a skeptic of faith and specifically Christianity and didn’t, I just struggled to believe that somebody had performed miracles and walked on water and raised from the dead. ⁓

And over 20 years, I put a lot of time into studying the history, the archaeology, and the logical and academic evidence to support the Christian faith. And I consolidated all of those findings into a free podcast called Eternal Life, Seven Questions Every Intelligent Skeptic Should Ask About Jesus. And it’s not meant to convert you. It’s just a presentation of the logical evidence that I found that is how I became a very devout convicted

believer, not on a spiritual encounter, but through a deep logical exploration. So you can check out the Eternal Life podcast if you or someone you know is like, know, faith curious but struggling with some of that. so back to number three.

AJ (34:25)
I

think more than anything, ⁓ not more than anything else, but I would say one of the things that has been most revolutionary in my life that I really truly underestimated the power of more than anything else. Like I didn’t underestimate the power of spending time with the Lord or having a good schedule. I didn’t underestimate. I knew that was important. I just had to make time for it. What I truly underestimated more than anything else was the importance of diet.

and physical fitness. And I always, I just don’t have time for that. And it’s like, now if I don’t make time, I feel the impact. Like I was really blind to how important it was for me to have a physical release of stress. And that looks different for all people.

RORY (35:11)
So this

is something we’ve learned about you together in the last couple of years. We didn’t know this about you. We knew this subconsciously, but we didn’t bring this into our consciousness about you, which you are a high energy burner.

AJ (35:23)
Congress.

high energy

burner which means if I do not have intense physical movement all my stress I tell I tell my kids I’m like ⁓ what’s his name shadow and Sonic if you’ve ever seen the third song yeah he’s got chaos energy and he runs around ⁓ chaos energy and that’s me I’m shadow from Sonic unless I release it and so I have to figure out it’s got to be a very brisk walk it has to be hot yoga it has to be punching a bag or playing

RORY (35:41)
of Sonic 3.

AJ (35:58)
intense game of pickleball with my kids. It has to be an energy release. A casual walk ain’t gonna do it. It’s gotta be an intense release, but it’s like even sometimes Roy will just look at me and he’s like, you need a walk? I’m like, I need a walk. And I’ll come back a different person. It’s like, what happened?

RORY (36:13)
Well, because because because I’m the opposite, right? It’s like yoga for me. I want a nap, right? I want a massage. Like I’m completely

AJ (36:21)
That’s

why like, whatever it is, but it’s still a physical release. I think that’s what people have to realize. Yours could be a nap. It could be a massage. Mine is a physical release of energy because all that stress builds up. And that’s where you just have to spend time going like, what does my body need? Not my mind. What does my body need to keep up with?

RORY (36:24)
Yeah.

my

mind. And by the way, here is a little bit of physiology and that we learned this is a scientific thing. We had you had a doctor that prescribed to you that said you need to hit stuff that there is a chemical release that happens in your body when you hit things. so rather than hitting me, we got a punching bag and 10 paddle sports we got we got we have we have pickleball now, but we have table tennis,

⁓ and real tennis and just anything where you can actually like make physical contact with.

AJ (37:17)
It’s amazing how much it makes a difference and again every body physical body is different So you have to know yours, but I truly underestimated how keeping my body in check actually allowed me to keep pace with my workload And so there is like for me a physical release. It might maybe it’s a power nap. Maybe you’re like Rory and it’s like

RORY (37:38)
You’re either sloth mode or your tiger mode. Like it’s probably ⁓ one of these two. And by the way, like you see this because when guys get frustrated, this happens sometimes, they punch a wall, right? And that like when guys get super duper wound up and get so angry, they will punch a wall. This is ⁓ a biological.

AJ (37:44)
⁓ But it matters. It matters a lot.

Gotta have a relief. Gotta-

Here’s what I would tell you if it doesn’t come out and a physical release it comes out in anger It comes out in frustration. It comes out and other physical ailments. It’s gonna come out If you guys have never read the book the body keeps the score It’s like the body holds on to your stress You have to figure out how to release it to be a better healthier happier person for your team for your family and for yourself And so the physical release is a huge part of my routine now, but then also the diet part again I totally truly

underestimated of a clean diet makes me a better productive leader.

RORY (38:40)
And I want people

to understand, we’re not talking about losing weight, being in shape, looking great. We’re talking about these are the things that are essential and critical and necessary for entrepreneurs for their mental health, their spiritual well-being.

AJ (38:56)
you

Extra hydration is necessary for the brain. what I used to think, I have eight glasses of water a day. I’m doing a great job. And it’s like, you need half of your body weight in water every day. And if you have a different type of drink, in ounces, if I have a coffee, then I need to add another eight ounces to counteract that. So I watch my water intake like a boss because your brain physically needs it to be high functioning. Other things of like when I have protein,

versus other things so I never have anything sugary or carby before I have a protein.

RORY (39:33)
Carby should

definitely be a word just for the record.

AJ (39:37)
But I’m just like, these are things that I’m going like.

My mind has been blown how these changes have changed my capacity, my mental capacity, my physical stamina that I’d really underestimated. I’m like, that’s a bunch of hoopla. No, it’s not. ⁓ It’s science. It’s sciency. is sciency. sciency. And so those are things which, however, again, I would just say if you’re listening to this and you’re like, can’t be that simple, right? You have a low stress Monday, you spend some time with the Lord, eat some protein and drink a lot of water. That’s what you’re saying?

I’m like, yeah, that’s what I’m saying. And over the last two and a half years, my stress level, my work capacity, my fatigue, my energy levels, you’re gonna test to this. am healthier, better and younger at 42 than I was at 32 by a long shot because I take these things serious now for my mental, physical and spiritual health.

RORY (40:34)
Here’s how you need to think about this. If you had a horse…

Let’s say that you had a million dollar racehorse that you owned and this horse won you money every time it went out. Wouldn’t you feed it the best food? Wouldn’t you get it the best coaching? Wouldn’t you? You’d have the best trainers. You would you would do a deliberate muscle routine, physical routine. Like if you had a million dollar racehorse, you would do everything to care for that racehorse. Every entrepreneur as an entrepreneur, you are the million dollar racehorse. Like you have to care for your

in that way and when you do these things you make more money. Just the word that AJ has been saying this whole time which I love is capacity. It increases your capacity and as you increase your capacity you can carry more which means you’re more productive. It doesn’t mean that stress goes away, it means that you can handle more before stress comes and so you’re able to handle the bigger levels and you get bigger results.

AJ (41:33)
When it does come, you

know how to release it faster. ⁓

RORY (41:36)
it. right. question.

AJ (41:39)
our community question of the day. This is a reminder. We do this every week and BBG members vote on the most pressing question that they want us to answer on the podcast and then all the other members upvote it and we pick the one that was most popular. So here we go today from Jason. I’m a real estate agent and I also coach agents on building their business. My weeks are completely reactive. I’m always putting out fires, jumping from call to call, and by Friday I realized I didn’t post-con…

content once, didn’t follow up with half my leads and didn’t move any of my big goals forward. I tell myself every week that next week I’ll be more intentional, but it never actually happens. What is the single change that would break this cycle for good?

RORY (42:25)
Ugh, these questions are awesome.

AJ (42:27)
These are real.

RORY (42:29)
These are from our members, right? This is from a member. ⁓ Jason and anybody who feels overwhelmed, busy, buried, and behind, here’s what I would say is the biggest difference between ultra-performers and multipliers. This comes from my second book and everybody else. Most people believe their strategy is, I will do all of the things that other people need me to do and with the time that is left over,

I will dedicate that to the things that I want to do. What multipliers do is I want you to think of a wedge. Okay, the metaphor here is a wedge. You don’t wait until you have space to do what you need to do or what you want to do. You have to wedge the things in.

that you wanna do. And it’s not just that you wanna do, it’s the things that you need to do. You multiply time by spending time on things today that give you more time tomorrow. But the whole book and framework is called the five permissions. The permission is what this is about. The emotional permission to invest time on things now that create more time tomorrow.

Absent a conscious calculation and absent a conscious permission to spend time on things that must be done, you will subconsciously, inadvertently default.

back to the constant state of interruption and urgency and just falling victim to whatever is latest and loudest. So you have to think longer term and realize that I’m not waiting until time is available to do my priorities. The definition of a priority is that it is a wedge. It’s not an empty space.

AJ (44:12)
Yeah, so I think very tactically speaking is that whatever your big goal is, whatever the most important things are to you, that has to be the first thing on Monday before you answer a phone call, check an email before you put out any fires. That’s got to be the first thing that you put your time, effort and energy to. so I think that is really schedule management. It’s priority management of making the first thing, the first thing before all the other things. the second thing I would just add to that is if you’re stuck putting out a lot of fires, then you got to ask why, why isn’t your

putting out the fires if you have a team. And one of the things that I would just say, it’s like I was victim to the mentality of taking a lot of personal pride and being the one to put out fires. And when I realized, ⁓ if they always come to me, they’ll never do it themselves. And so I really have a strict policy now with the team. It’s like, don’t bring me problems. Tell me what problems you fixed. Don’t bring me problems. You tell me what problems you fixed today. I would rather you take action and do it wrong and we’ll fix it on the back end than you coming to me and having me fix it.

So if you’re the one fixing all the fires, you gotta ask yourself, did I put myself in that position? Have I trained my team to have me be the fixer? ⁓ Or do you not have someone, right? So I think that would be the other thing I would add. And then the third quick thing that I would just say to that is this whole concept of being reactive versus proactive. That’s a choice. Lovingly, kindly, that’s a choice. And you just have to have the self-discipline to go back and wait.

It can wait, but proactive is a choice versus being reactive. And that means that you have a plan and you follow the plan back to why I start my Mondays with planning so that I don’t live in a reactive state. That doesn’t mean there’s not unexpected fires that come up I have to get involved with, but that means I have a plan of making sure the main thing is the main thing. And that takes me three hours every Monday.

RORY (46:04)
Yeah,

this

ability to prioritize is the hard work of being an ultra performer. It’s just like, you know, you have to lift weights. If you want to build muscles, you have to learn to block and protect the things that multiply time. If you want to become a multiplier, it’s not easy. It is simple, but you just got to do it. So if this episode has encouraged you and you believe it’s going to help you think about someone in your life that maybe could have a little more peace, share this episode with them and let them know there’s some tactical insights here that can hopefully help them on their

entrepreneurial journey. As always, if you want to talk to us about how our team can help you implement and execute and support your journey and applying all of these things that we teach on the show, go to freebrandcall.com forward slash podcast, freebrandcall.com forward slash podcast. We’ll see you next time on the Wealthy and Well-Known Podcast.

AJ (46:57)
y’all you gotta learn how to prioritize and right now you need to prioritize hitting that subscribe button so you can learn more stuff like this

RORY (47:06)
And if you need a physical energy release, hit the subscribe button right now. You’ll feel much

AJ (47:11)
Of course, it’s science.

WWK Ep 015: Follower Rich, Dollar Broke? The 4-Step Trust Funnel That Actually Converts 

WATCH THE INTERVIEW LISTEN TO THE EPISODE BELOW Most people assume more followers means more revenue. But the real gap is not attention. It is trust. In this episode of The Wealthy and Well-Known Podcast, Rory Vaden and AJ Vaden break down why “big platform” does not automatically equal “big business,” and what to do […]

Ep 014: Why You’re Losing (It’s Not a Strategy Problem)

Rory (00:00)
they’re losing and they assign that loss to, maybe this isn’t the right thing for me or maybe I’m just not smart enough or I’m just not good enough or I don’t have enough time or I don’t have enough team. And it’s like, no, you’re just an amateur playing among professionals and you’re getting beat because they’re more committed. I mean, I not be making friends there, but that’s what I think the truth

Your brain lies to you. Your brain is one of the things that holds you back from building a great personal brand. And what we’re talking about today on this episode is what are the lies and the limiting beliefs that experts and entrepreneurs have that prevent them from building a truly successful personal brand. I’m here, I’m Rory Vaden, co-founder of Brand Builders Group, joined by my wife and business partner, AJ Vaden. Let’s go.

AJ (00:52)
Yeah, like one of the things I wanna make sure we nuance is that you said, lies that your brain believes that prevent you from building your personal brand or business. Sure. Right? And so I just wanna make sure as we’re talking about this, that it’s not just a personal brand. Like these things impact your business, impact sales, impacts relationships, impacts all the things. So we’ll take it through the lens of personal brand, IE business.

Rory (01:18)
I mean, when I even say the term personal brand, I almost think of a personal brand as just a marketing engine for the business, right, for most of the people.

AJ (01:30)
I know that’s what you

think. huh. But like it’s good for everyone who’s listening or watching to make sure that you know that we have that context in that filter as we talk about all of this.

Rory (01:41)
Yeah, so,

so let’s dive in. I want to I want to ask you let’s have a conversation about what do you think based on our own experience, our hundreds of clients, and just what we kind of observe and what our data tells us is happening. What do you think are some of the biggest limiting beliefs that people think about their personal brand or their business that is really holding them back? It’s not really true.

AJ (02:08)
Yeah. And so I want to use a large spectrum of what I have noticed to be true in the world. And this isn’t just from working with, you know, hundreds of clients. This goes all the way back to childhood, to school, to parenting, to previous ⁓ employment. And literally just this week, I’m talking about my eight year old Jasper this week, we were talking about doing schoolwork. Why do I have to do that? I’ve already done it.

I’m like, you’ve done it one time. He goes, yeah, but I’ve already done it. Why do I have to do it again? Then, let’s all take it back to our school days. How many times did we say, why do I have to do this again? I already know how to do this. I’ve already done it. I already know this. ⁓ And then you think about professional athletes. Think about how many times they have to swing a bat. How many times they have to throw a ball? How many times they have to run the exact same route?

And I think that we lack a little bit of some of that in business when you parallel it to sports.

Rory (03:15)
So

you’re saying the lie that people believe or the limiting belief they have is I shouldn’t have to keep doing this. I’ve already I already know how to do this. Why should I have to keep

AJ (03:26)
I think people get bored with monotony.

We have a constant shiny object syndrome of there must be a better way. This is too easy. This is too simple. There must be a way for me to get faster other than just practicing. There must be a way for me to not have to do it over and over again. And I think that we just naturally as humans get bored with doing the same thing over and over again. And we want to keep changing it up when the truth is the more you do something, the better you get at it.

and the easier it becomes. And I think the lie we believe is that it can’t be that easy. It can’t be that simple. When we think about social media, it can’t be as simple as just post something every day. It can’t be as simple as just put some money behind it. Like there’s got to be some complex formula that I just don’t know. There’s got to be some secret. And I think we think that about sales. I think we think that about marketing. I think we think that about relationships. And I think about often, like as a parent, how many times I’m like, I know you did it.

We’re just gonna do it again and again and again and again until it’s second nature. But somewhere in adulthood, we forget the power of consistency, the power of doing the small thing over and over and over again. And we believe the lie that it’s that easy.

Rory (04:42)
It reminds me of it’s this is I think the difference between amateurs and professionals, right? I’ve heard it said that amateurs practice until they get it right. Professionals practice until they cannot get it wrong. And that really is true. Like the example that you’re using of sports, it’s like, okay, yeah, I can shoot a three pointer and make it once but Steph Curry does it so many times that it’s almost impossible for him to miss. And that is what it takes

AJ (05:07)
every time.

Rory (05:12)
to build a personal brand. It’s like you have to you have to be brilliant at the basics. You have to master the fundamentals of content creation, lead generation, sales, follow up, delivering, over delivering and renewing. If you get those fundamentals right, it’s like there is nothing else.

AJ (05:31)
think a lot of that is we believe a lie that there’s some complex formula, some hidden secret, something that we don’t know yet. And so instead of doing the thing that we do know, we try all these new things and we keep trying all these new things, meaning we never do it enough to become really sophisticated at it. And I think we see that building your business, building your brand, social media, marketing, the list goes on and on. There’s just some truth in the fun

fundamentals and I think there’s some timeless truths that it doesn’t matter what new technology is out there, the emergence of AI, all the new things. There’s just some basic truths in sales and marketing and business that are timeless and it doesn’t really matter anything that new that comes along. It’s just a new medium to do the same old thing.

Rory (06:24)
way.

Totally. All right. The second limiting belief that I think people have about building their personal brand in their business is they think I’m not good enough to do this. They look at other people. They want to do it. They want to be influential. They want to speak on the stages. They want to have people reading their books or watching their shows. They want that. But deep down, they actually struggle with believing they’re not good enough. I think, you know, the classic word for this is imposter syndrome.

And even though they may have spent 10 or 15 or 20 years becoming an expert at their craft, they still somehow struggle with like, I don’t know that I deserve to be heard by the world or I don’t know that I’m smart enough or good enough to be heard, you know, by the rest of the world. So that that’s what I think is one of the other most common limiting beliefs in our community or the people we work with.

AJ (07:22)
with. Like

how do you see that showing up? Because I think there’s a lot of different byproducts of that. But what I think this would be good of you know, for all of you who are listening up going like, well, is that me? I don’t know. So what are some of the symptoms, some of the signs that show up when this is the root? So

Rory (07:40)
So one of the symptoms that people don’t talk a lot about but that since you asked me directly I think is really, really indicative of this is there a dabbler.

they dabble in things and it kind of comes back to what we were talking about a little bit before. They’ll dabble like, yeah, maybe I’ll learn a little bit about this or maybe I’ll start a podcast for a little bit or maybe like I’ll start writing a speech or I’ll start writing a book or I’ll start writing a blog or two or you know, I’ll join a membership for like a couple months or even a year but like they’re dabbling and because they don’t

really believe it. And if they if they really believed it was possible, they would commit to doing whatever it took to make it happen. And the and the truth is, it’s not that they’re not qualified to do it is that they’re not committed enough ⁓ to do the work it takes to make it happen. And so somebody struggling with imposter syndrome is a dabbler. And they’re competing against committed ultra performers.

and they’re losing and they assign that loss to, maybe this isn’t the right thing for me or maybe I’m just not smart enough or I’m just not good enough or I don’t have enough time or I don’t have enough team. And it’s like, no, you’re just an amateur playing among professionals and you’re getting beat because they’re more committed. I mean, I not be making friends there, but that’s what I think the truth is.

AJ (09:11)
I don’t disagree with that. I was just curious. Well, I think, you know, kind of on that same lines, you could categorize this as a another lie, a separate lie, but I think it falls within this category. So I’m going to bring it up because it’s in the same vein as I think one of the reasons people ⁓

Really, I don’t know if the word dabbler is the one I would use, but I think the reason they don’t commit is because of comparison. I think a lot of imposter syndrome actually is the result of comparison.

And I think what most people do when they’re really suffering from this concept of imposter syndrome, which is basically believing that what you have done isn’t as good or as important as somebody else, even though it’s the same thing is at the root of that, like even in that definition, it’s going, no, you’re comparing yourself to someone else.

And you’re comparing your step one to someone else step 1000, your day one to someone else’s day 1000, your year one to someone else’s year 10. And they’re not comparable. And when we do that, we, what we don’t do is see all the work behind the scenes. I think that’s where we all suffer is like we see the end result and compare our behind the scenes mess to someone else’s very well curated end result.

Rory (10:20)
That’s it.

AJ (10:33)
And therein lies comparison. And I think that’s one of the downfalls of social media because everything can look so presented and it can be the end product.

We all have to remember like no one saw the camera crew scrambling behind the scenes or the amount of lighting prep or script prep or all the years of experience that it took to make that 30 second video or the amount of camera practice to feel confident when that red light goes on. Nobody thinks about that, right? Just you mentioned Steph Curry earlier, right? They see him in the game, but they didn’t see all the missed shots. They didn’t see the years and decades of practice.

And I think that’s where we all fall short of just taking a peek behind the scenes of like, why am I comparing at all?

Rory (11:21)
Yeah, that’s so good. And social media is like the perfect little capsule of this because you are literally seeing an edited, polished, perfected, highlight reel of a bright moment in somebody’s life and your feed is just filled with that. And just all the hours going into it. I saw an interview with Alex Hermosy recently, and he made a comment that I thought was really profound. said, Yeah,

the more advanced we’ve gotten in content production, the more we spend time planning and the less time shooting. He’s like, all of our time is spent in the planning. And then the shooting is just like, you know, we come in and we’re ready to go. And I thought, that’s, that’s, that’s a professional. That’s, that’s what a professional is.

AJ (12:06)
But that’s, think,

that’s the same thing in business and in sales. It’s like a great sale happens because there was immense planning behind the scenes. There was research, there was review, there was product knowledge, there was training, and then a seeming, you know, short 30 to 60 minute conversation ends well. And it’s like, wow, you’re such a great salesperson. It’s like, no, you’re such a great practicer, right? You’re such a good rehearser. You’re such a good student. You’re such a good learner. ⁓ Things don’t happen without all of that.

And so I think a lot of us struggle with this idea of I can’t do it because they’re looking at someone else who’s done all the practice and comparing them to themselves who have done none of the practice.

Rory (12:47)
Yeah, there. Shout out to our friend, Phil Jones. We’ve had him on this podcast before. He wrote a book called Exactly What to Say. And I love one of his core philosophies is the worst time to think about what you’re going to say is in the moment when you’re saying it. Right. Like, and that’s like a classic example of an amateur, like the worst moment to like think about what you’re going to do or say is like in the moment it needs to happen. You haven’t prepped. You haven’t planned like you’re

not you’re not experienced leading leading into it.

AJ (13:20)
Cause you haven’t practiced it. And this is a good reminder for all of us. No one is good. The first time you do it, no one knows what you’re doing. The first time you do it, doesn’t matter who you are. Elon Musk, Jeff Bezos, it doesn’t matter. They did not know what they were doing until they did it.

Rory (13:37)
wish we still had you remember we made one of our first products was that that DVD called speaker that showed all the clips of me speaking it was horrible. I speaking at comedy clubs and Toastmaster clubs and we had it on film. And then you could see the world championship the world championship at the end. That’s such a powerful, a powerful thing. ⁓ All right.

AJ (14:00)
So I want to add one more thing to this because I think it’s really important. What I have found internally within our company at my previous profession as a sales trainer, working with companies, working with teammates, here’s one of the biggest things that I would say about this comparison thing that just drives me nuts is that people would rather fail live in the moment with a client versus, ⁓ I guess even be open to the embarrassment of role playing with their leader.

And it’s one of the things that as a leader, I’ve always done. It’s like, no, we’re going to role play this. And they’re just like, no, I’m like, no, we’re going to roll play this right now. And it’s like, we do that with a practice interviews and presentations and sales conversations. And it’s like, why would you expect for you to be good? The first time you ever did it with a paying client. And I would just, I caution to say like, it doesn’t matter what your profession is. It’s like, it is your job to practice before you go play the game.

Rory (14:57)
Did you imagine a pilot that learned how to fly with like, with you know, the first time or a surgeon that

AJ (15:02)
We were talking about

the other day. was like, I want the gray hair man in my pilot seat. you know, it’s, don’t want the fresh new person learning all this stuff. like, no, I don’t want your new techniques. I want the old tried and true techniques. Thank you very much. But I would say the same thing. when you think about going on camera or going on a stage, like how dare you think that somebody should pay you to speak in front of their people. And that’s the first time you’ve done it. Like.

So I think there’s some humility in going like, no, like we gotta take it back to, no, I’m gonna practice like I play and we’re gonna do it right and we’re gonna do it again and again and again so that when you get on stage, people are like, whoa, even if it was the first time, because the truth is it’s never the first time. I love it. Next one.

Rory (15:47)
Okay,

I’ve got another another really big limiting belief that I think hold the people back, I want to make sure we get to it. But do you have a burning one that you want to share? Or should I just jump in and share?

AJ (15:59)
I mean,

I don’t know if I would say it’s burning, so go ahead.

Rory (16:03)
Okay, so I’m going to say this and it’s going to sound like a sales pitch, but this is not a sales pitch. Well, it’s always a sales pitch. But I genuinely believe one of the most debilitating limiting beliefs that holds people back from building their personal brand is that they are in they are afraid to invest money into their business. And I don’t just mean coaching.

AJ (16:08)
Are you sure?

Rory (16:33)
I mean, they’re afraid to invest into a nicer camera. They’re afraid to invest into a nicer logo, into a nicer website, into running ads, into hiring a team member, into paying better to get better team members. And there is this fear always with money that that entrepreneurs have, especially when they’re like really starting out, where they go, ⁓ I’m not gonna hire you for coaching. You’re just trying to take advantage of me. Or like, ⁓ I don’t really need that camera. Like it’s it’s

you know, like, it’s probably not like necessary. And to an extent, nothing is necessary. Like it’s nothing is, you know, essential going to make or break like no bit of coaching or equipment or person is going to make or break your business like you are. But every one of those decisions levels up. And when you compound the leveling up of all of those things, and I just think that people, they don’t want to invest. And when you look at the people who are winning,

they invest time and money into equipment, into education, into coaching, into staff, into personnel. Like they spend money on their business. And I think this is one of the most critical limiting beliefs that holds people back.

AJ (17:50)
Where do you think that comes from?

Rory (17:53)
scarcity around money. Yeah, it comes from comes from scarcity around money. And especially, you know, I think about me growing up somebody who didn’t come from a lot of money. When you finally have like a little bit, it’s like money is survival. And when you equate money to like survival, it’s just like you cannot reinvest because it’s like, this is my survival. And there is an evolution that happens to on the way to becoming like a wealthier person that is money is a tool.

and I use money as a tool to grow and make more money among other things. so I think…

I think we live in a world of scarcity financially, and I think there’s a lot of horrible information about money. And frankly, there are no shortage of people trying to take advantage of you and take money out of your pocket and investment schemes and crappy coaches. And so I you know, there’s a part of that that I go, yeah, there’s you, know, you get burned a few times, and you’re like, I’m never doing that again. But I think entrepreneurs actually ironically have a much

like poor people are actually the ones who are more emotionally attached to money. can say this from having been there because it’s like this is my survival. I must have this. can’t let this go. I found that wealthy people are kind of emotional emotionally detached from money. It’s like a hammer. Many they have they view it more as a tool, right? And it’s like, yeah, I’d be upset if I lost my hammer. But it’s like, it’s just a hammer, like I can go get another hammer and make it happen. So anyways, that’s I think a

AJ (19:13)
depends.

Rory (19:28)
I think that’s a big one. What do you agree?

AJ (19:30)
I just say

that there’s a couple of things that you said. It’s not that I disagree with. think there’s just some perspective shifts. Um, and I think one of them is this whole idea. Oh, I’ve been burned a few times or I’ve even heard people say, I’ll never do that again. I’ll never pay for another conference. I’ll never hire another coach because it was such a bad experience. And my response has always been, I don’t know where this came from, but it’s just like, well, didn’t you learn from that experience? Like,

Isn’t that in and of itself a great lesson of what to do, what not to do, what you like, what you don’t like, what not to do next time, who not to hire next time? Isn’t that valuable in and of itself? And I think that just comes back to the principle of there is no failing, there’s no bad decisions, there’s only lessons learned.

Rory (20:03)
lesson.

AJ (20:21)
Right. And I think if we can have that perspective shift, when we think about learning and investing into your business, it’s like, even if it fails, even if it doesn’t work, even if it backfires, I will learn something is a mentality, a perspective shift that helps. I think people try again, do it again. ⁓ and I think that’s a really important thing is, you know, yeah, like you’re going to make mistakes. You’re going to hire the wrong people. Things aren’t going to work.

Let’s just call it what it is. Like it’s gonna blow up in your face. It’s gonna backfire. Things are going to break and not work. What did you learn?

Rory (21:00)
That’s so good. mean, that also makes me think of another another key difference between wealthy people and average people financially is that wealthy people always think longer term. So

a lot of people, especially if you don’t have a lot of money, right? This was me, even as a young entrepreneur, I remember literally emptying my bank account writing a check to Darren LaCroix for a humor class that was like, it literally was the last dollars in my account. ⁓ But

you know, I think about I was like $2,000 or something for this one class. And that was that was a lot of money to me. And I go, ⁓ my gosh, I’ve made 10s of 1000s of dollars over the course of my career from what I learned in those two days. But like, when you don’t have a lot of money, you’re like, Okay, I need to put a dollar in the machine. And if I don’t get to back to today or tomorrow, I’m never doing this again. And

AJ (21:59)
What happens more frequently even is if I don’t get it back in the short amount of time frame, I’m just going to quit altogether. Yeah. I’m just going to stop altogether. And it’s like success doesn’t happen overnight and growth and change definitely doesn’t happen overnight or in a week or in a month or in a year sometimes. And it’s like, you got to have that long-term perspective. I’d say one of the things that you said, I think is important to kind of highlight it’s now we live in an age and an era where learning and improving, there’s just no excuses. Anything you want to learn is out.

fingertips literally with a clickety clack of your type board there it goes between all of the new you know LLMs and blogs and podcasts it’s like no excuses yeah that doesn’t mean it’s all credible doesn’t mean it’s all but that whole idea that ⁓ I’m just I’m not gonna invest I’m not gonna try I’m not gonna learn it’s like that’s that we’re just beyond that there’s just there’s no excuse for that in today’s in today’s world

Rory (22:58)
And

I love what you’re saying there about like, we have spent so much money on kind of crappy or mediocre coaching or crappier, mediocre, like services or crappier, mediocre, like, you know, courses or knowledge or information or tools that we bought. But it’s like, it’s it’s valuable, even if it doesn’t work, because it’s like learning. I think it was Thomas Edison who said something like, you know, I learned it’s valuable negative information. It’s like,

You have to learn a thousand things that don’t work to find the one thing that does work.

AJ (23:32)
yet.

would say it’s like I’ve read plenty of books that I don’t recommend plenty of conferences that I wouldn’t go to again. Like there’s a lot of that and I can honestly say I learned something from every single book, from every single coach, from every single conference. It may not have been a multitude of things, but at least one thing. And my approach has always been whatever I’m going to do, what’s the one thing? I don’t need 10 things. I’m not going to do 10 things. I need one thing. What’s the one thing? And I’ve been to many events where it’s like I left halfway through

a third of the way through, not because it was bad, but it was like, I got what I needed. I’m good. Right? And if we all go through with this approach of just like, what’s the one thing? What’s the one thing I need? What’s the one thing that’s a takeaway for me? And often if you just open up your mindset and just go, I don’t need a lot of things. I don’t need all the things. I need one thing that I can go and actually change or start doing or stop doing or see differently. Even, you know, a lot of times I just leave with a perspective shift.

And that is worth it to me. And so I think again, all of those are just choices of going, how do I spend my time? How do I spend my money in order to get the results that I’m looking for? And then nothing is a bad investment. Everything is a good investment because you got something.

Rory (24:49)
Absolutely. So, all ⁓ right. I want to ask you a question, which is if somebody is watching right now and they’re struggling with these three limiting beliefs that we have, we have talked about. So they basically, you know, have like the novelty addiction of like the new thing. They have imposter syndrome or they have a scarcity around money. What do think they could do in the next seven days to do a mindset reset?

you will. Like, ⁓ we’ve been there and all three of these at many times in many places. What, what would you tell to somebody if they’re if they’re struggling with any of these things, you go the next seven days, here’s what you should focus on to shake free.

AJ (25:35)
Yeah, I would say the first thing is to go back through these things, which could be the novelty addiction or what I would call this shiny object syndrome. Could be the imposter syndrome or IE comparison, or it’s the scarcity of money, which I think you can also liken it to what am I to? I think it’s a lot of that comes to I’m choosing to see what I don’t have versus what I can glean from this. And I think all of those are to say, which one do you suffer from? Maybe they’re all of them, but let’s pick one.

Right? think the first thing you got to do in the next seven days is go, where is this showing up in my life? And you have to pinpoint the catalyst of it. And I would just encourage you to pinpoint which one of those three things is really nagging at your soul, because there’s typically one of them. And then I would say, I, this is really just have some time of reflection, grab a journal, get outside and give yourself 30 minutes to go. Where is that coming from?

What was the event that sparked this in my life? Because I believe that when you can pinpoint where it started or what triggered it, now you can take control over it. Right? And I think the reason that most of us keep living in this hamster wheel of the same thing, you know, happening again and again, ruminating in our lives is because we, we don’t have control over where it started so we can rewrite the narrative.

And so if you’re really struggling from, you know, imposter syndrome or comparison, then you got to sit down and go, when did that start? Where was it? What was it? What happened that started that? Because there was always an event. There was also, there was always a moment where there was a trigger that then began this pattern in your life. And I think it doesn’t take us long. It’s just, you just got to have the time and give yourself the mental space and permission to go there.

Because once you do, and once you can identify it, you can actually start to make tangible changes. You can say like, were you compared to someone else in the classroom? Or you compared to a sibling, right? Where you compared to other people on your team that were perhaps better at you at that season in your life at a sport or, you know, school or whatever it was. And I think a lot of it is just going back to where did that start so that you know, that’s not true in your life today.

It was an event that happened and it was a lie. Cause this whole episode is about lies. These are lies. These are not truths. Those lies started when you started to believe something that wasn’t true about yourself and you got to go back and go, when did that lie start? And how can I start to speak truth over myself to combat that lie? Because it’s not who you are today. We’re believing things today that started from one thing that happened years ago or decades ago, and we haven’t been able to let them go. That’s what I would do in the next seven days.

to truly, really start to eradicate these lies from your life.

Rory (28:26)
I love that. I love that. All right. So we need to go to the community question. want to, I want to wrap up. want to give you three, I want to give you three specific affirmations or mantras or beliefs that you could use to rewrite. If you’re struggling with these, these are things that have helped me. So number one, if you are struggling with this issue of like shiny object syndrome, the mantra, I always remind myself it’s in our book. If you have diluted focus, you get diluted results. Number two, if you’re struggling with

I would encourage you, this is a quote that I think about often, it’s from Mark Twain. said, each man is my superior in some way. And therefore, I am superior to each man in some way, right? So we all have value to learn and gain from each other. Number three, if you’re struggling with scarcity around money, I would encourage you to say, money is a tool that I invest and I use it to bring me more money.

So those are three little belief patterns you could adopt or try on and see if that helps you.

AJ (29:30)
Love it.

All right. So in this community section, right, this is one of the favorite times of this episode because we get to answer a question from our brand builders group community and everyone gets to submit a question and then they vote up on which one we’re going to talk about on the show today. So let me tell you, I know this is from Derek. He says, I’m a financial advisor with real expertise. I know my stuff, but I freeze every single time I try to film content. You’re not alone, Derek.

It’s not that I don’t know what to say. I just feel, let’s highlight that word, all caps, feel like I’m going to say something wrong or look stupid on camera. My coach keeps telling me it’s a mindset issue, but that advice hasn’t helped. Is there an actual tactical step-by-step way to train your brain to self-sabotaging when the camera is on?

Rory (30:26)
gosh, this is such a…

AJ (30:28)
Such

a question and applicable to 99 % of us. I have a few, but do you want to start?

Rory (30:32)
Yes, sure.

So

To me, like everything that we teach, there is a mental part of this and then there’s a technical part of this. Since he’s saying that ⁓ he’s been attacking the mental part, I’m gonna talk about a couple technical things. Okay, so number one, most technical tip I have if you feel nervous on camera is hit record on the camera long before you actually go to talk to it. So let it just be recording and just sit in the room

⁓ and get used to like, the camera’s on and it’s like, you just, because if you have to like hit record and start talking, there’s like this pressure of this moment being on. But if you just let the camera roll and just like, the camera’s just rolling all the time, you feel less of like, okay, time to like turn on and like go into presenter mode. And you get comfortable with the idea of just, ⁓ I’m being recorded, it’s not a big deal, we can edit it after. And you’re more likely to just talk to the camera.

that you would in your normal voice and not go into like presenter mode or influencer mode. Because I think that’s the big tip here is don’t think about looking at a camera and like, don’t think about I’m talking to thousands of people, pretend the camera is like a face and talk to the camera as if it’s like a person in your normal voice. So.

AJ (31:55)
Yeah, I think that’s good. tips. Mine are very similar to that. So I’ll just kind of tag on to that ⁓ is if you have a hard time talking to the camera, it’s because you’re really talking to yourself and that’s weird and it’s awkward. So don’t talk to yourself. Here’s two things that you can do. One, literally print out a picture of your avatar or your favorite client or your spouse or your best friend or whoever, whoever you want and tape it above the camera.

And so you’re not talking to the camera, a lens, you’re talking to a person. So what we tell people to do is like literally print out, like who’s your ideal client, right? Who’s the person that you’re making this content for or what do you imagine they would look like or, you know, just have a friendly face or whatever it is, but talk to the picture. Don’t talk to the camera, talk to the picture.

And it really helps us go, okay, this is actually for a person. And it becomes less about what you’re saying to the camera and more about serving the person. The other thing you can do is use a teleprompter. Right? It’s like, if you know your stuff and you know what to say, and you just freeze when the camera goes on and your mind goes blank, that happens to a lot of us. That’s just like our nerves are kicked in. So give yourself a little bit of a study guide. So use a teleprompter. Like we have plenty of people who use note cards on stages.

Right? Like that’s a normal thing. Don’t feel like you can’t use that here. So use a teleprompter or have a postcard, like a giant poster board in the back. Like those things help. And then one other quick tool or tactic I would say that would be really helpful is if you really freeze with that, then just have someone interview you so you can have a real conversation, a real dialogue. And then you just need a good editor.

right? So that you can cut things as they need. But it’s like, have someone actually stand behind the camera and ask you the questions and then you’re talking to them. So if the picture thing doesn’t work, the teleprompter doesn’t work, turning the camera on early doesn’t work, then you just need a real life human that you can have a real life conversation with because that, that is what makes great content. That’s what the conversational tone of even, you know, episodes like this happen because you’re just talking to a real human. And so get you someone to stand behind the camera and just ask you the questions.

Rory (34:01)
Love that. I can’t resist the opportunity to do a shout out for Nashville Creative Spaces right now. ⁓ So we own a building in Nashville called Nashville Creative Spaces and we have a teleprompter in that space and a live human. And one of the reasons I’m bringing it up is because people always tell us, I booked the studio so I didn’t have to worry about the right mic and the right camera and the right lighting. But what I got most was your team coaching me through the fear of what to say.

AJ (34:13)
and a live human.

Rory (34:30)
or how to say it and also just having the teleprompter right there. We solve all that problem for you. So ⁓ you can check out Nashville Creative Spaces. And if you are a personal brand who goes, you know what, I am struggling with some of these limiting beliefs that we’ve talked about on this episode and I do need the combination, the perfect blend of ⁓ mental and tactical and I want the accountability of being in a community or even having a one-on-one coach.

Go to freebrandcall.com forward slash podcast. You can request a call and talk with someone from our team to see if you might fit to be a part of our member, mission, our community of mission-driven messengers. And we’d love to get a chance to meet you. So for myself and AJ, this is a wealthy and well-known podcast. Share this episode with someone who you think needs it and don’t let those believing beliefs hold you back. We’ll catch you next time.

AJ (35:22)
you being a dabbler right now?

Rory (35:24)
be a dabbler. Subscribe.

WWK Ep 012: From Rainmaker to Revenue Machine: How to Build a Sales Team That Wins Without You

Speaker 1 (00:00)
If you can’t sell, your business is dead. If you can’t sell, your dream is dead. If you can’t sell, you can’t staff your team. If you can’t sell, you can’t create technology. If you can’t sell, you don’t have a business. So to me, I agree with you that sales

as the heartbeat of the culture is first and foremost.

If you as the owner or entrepreneur founder disappeared from your business for 30 days, would sales continue or would they stall? That’s what we’re talking about on today’s episode. How to scale your sales, how to grow your revenue, how to close deals without a founder dependent or CEO or leader dependent company. Welcome back to the Wealthy and Well-Known Podcast. This is where we teach you how to grow your influence, your income.

so that you can make a bigger impact in the world. I joined by my business partner, my wife, my best friend and co-host, AJ Vaden.

Speaker 2 (01:02)
All right, what are we gonna talk about?

Speaker 1 (01:04)
Let’s do this. So we’re talking about scaling sales without it being dependent on you and you are the CEO of brand brand builders group. We have an eight figure business. How have we done that without having you involved in doing sales calls? So I guess I would open by just wanting to hear some of your philosophies about when do you think is the right time for the CEO founders to be doing sales calls? How do we

pull you out and when did we pull you out and maybe just share some of that story.

Speaker 2 (01:35)
This is very short, answer.

you’re here. ⁓ I don’t have to do all the sales calls you are, but that’s a unique benefit of being in a partnership. Now, what I would say is, ⁓ you know, that’s, that’s simply the conversation and the transition from startup to established, right? In the very beginning, you and I both were taking sales calls, but so is our whole team. I think one of the things that a lot of people miss when it comes to entrepreneurship or starting a new company is like sales is

how you grow, right? It’s like you’re not gonna cut your way to success. You have to grow your way to success. And I think a lot of people think somehow they should outgrow sales and every company should have a sales minded culture. Sales is not a department. Sales is not a task. Like sales is a mindset. Sales is a culture that has to be grown and established within a company. And it starts with the founder, right? And it’s like, if the founder wants to get out

selling or they think selling is beneath them. Well, as the leader goes, so does everyone else. And they think, sales, a sales position is a stepping stone. It’s like, no sales is the cornerstone of companies in order to grow and scale or just to survive. Right. We talked about this in a recent episode, how 90 % of all small businesses fail within the first 10 years. And most of them, it’s most of them, not all of them, most

some of is they run out of money. Some of it is they get burnt out and they just don’t want to do it anymore. But for the most part, that’s not it. They run out of runway, i.e. revenue. And that’s because they didn’t have a sales-focused culture or a sales-minded group of people. So in my opinion, it’s like even though I have phased out of taking sales calls on a formal role, I take sales calls anytime that’s needed. Right? It’s like…

I will make time in my calendar. mean, we’re fairly established. We’re seven years in a brain builders group, but at our former entity, I still had the predominant amount of time on my schedule. Even 13 years later was generating leads and making sales calls. It was a sales mindset. And even today it’s like, have leads in my calendar right now that I will make time for. Right. And so that is still a part of what my role is. It’s still what has attention and

It’s just not my main attention and focus as we have built up a group of people now the unique part of our dynamic is that I have a partner right a you know a husband and a spouse who also carries the weight and some of those and I think that’s when if you don’t have that in a Partnership then at some point you’ve got to hire a sales minded leader to help build up that sales culture But I think this is just as an important question for you because you know we made the decision or

on in our business, I was going to take on the operations, finance, administrative parts of the business and that you would take on more of the sales and marketing. And it hasn’t been until really the last year, two years, so five years into the business that we’ve really started stepping you out of that.

Speaker 1 (04:52)
Yeah, and it’s interesting because I think our roles almost flipped from our first company to our second company. In our first company, I was more behind the scenes creating the strategy operations, et cetera, and you were the top revenue producer in Brand Builders Group. Those roles have flipped. One thing I will say directly that I think is a lie and a mistake and crappy advice that people get is they say, hey, if you want to build a great business, all you have to do is build a great product. I don’t believe that.

I can share with you countless examples of friends and stories that we’ve heard of people who have amazing products and the businesses crash because they never learn how to sell. If you can’t sell, your business is dead. If you can’t sell, your dream is dead. If you can’t sell, you can’t staff your team. If you can’t sell, you can’t create technology. If you can’t sell, you don’t have a business. So to me, I agree with you that sales

as the heartbeat of the culture is first and foremost. And we’re living through this right now. Last year was one of our toughest years, probably our single toughest year in sales that we’ve had, I would say in seven years. And so it is like an all recommitment back to sales. It’s like nothing else matters. Like if we can’t fix the front door of the company and create the conversions and the lead flow that we need, literally nothing else matters. ⁓

So sales gives life to everything and that’s a commitment and decision you gotta make. And I think most founders and CEOs are sort of reluctant. Like sales is like the necessary evil we have to do or that’s like the grunt work that like those people over there do or I’m above selling or like if our product’s so good, we shouldn’t have to sell it.

Speaker 2 (06:40)
I would just add one to that. think a lot of founders and CEOs, they think that sales is the first thing that they should get off their plate. And it’s not even that. I mean, I think some people do think sales is beneath them and now I’m the owner, I’m the founder, I’m an executive. it’s like, and your number one job is revenue. That’s what it means to be the owner. It’s like you create the revenue to actually provide for your company and your team that is your number

one role. But what I see more often is people go, ⁓ this is the first thing to get off my plate to outsource, to delegate, to hire for. And our philosophy is and has always been sales is never the first thing. It’s the last thing. It’s the last thing that you let go of as a founder. It’s not the first thing, right? The first thing is all the very menial, mundane, repetitive, easy to train tasks.

But sales is what you hold on to until the very, very end. So you know that there is a system. You know there’s a process. It’s documented. It’s trainable. You know that there is something that you can pass it off to someone. You’re tracking the stats and you have all of that in place. It’s the last thing, not the first thing.

Speaker 1 (07:55)
Now,

I think if someone’s out there asking why is sales the last thing or one of the last things that should come off the founder’s plate, if you don’t know the answer to that question, then there’s an important lesson you need to learn about sales, which is that sales is a transference of emotion. Sales is a transference of conviction. At the end of the day, sales is an emotional part of the business and the human connection. And that emotion radiates most powerfully

from the founder. So a founder should have higher conversion rates because it’s their life, it’s their mission, it’s inherently connected to who they are and why they exist in the world. And to some extent, you can transfer that to other people, but it typically never is quite as concentrated or as passionate from the founder. And so that is why I think we have to hang on to it.

Speaker 2 (08:47)
And just to add to that, think one of the other things is some of the hardest things for people to transfer our stories. And one of the reasons that I think it’s so important that it’s the last thing that a founder lets go of is no one has the story recall like the founder. Why we started all the testimonials, the client success stories, the trials, the successes, they are the repository for the entire company history.

And a lot of people don’t take the time to sit, record, tell, and train. They just don’t. They expect somebody that they hire who has a lot of sales skills, and I’m using bunny ears with that, are gonna be able to come in and just do what they do.

They don’t, they can’t because they don’t have the entire story recall that the founder does. They don’t have the recollection of, when this happened and when this happened and this story and this thing, ⁓ those things have to be documented.

Speaker 1 (09:50)
You said

the backstory of why we started the company, how we started the company. There’s no way they have that unless you tell it and.

Speaker 2 (09:58)
Tell

it and tell it again and again and again and it’s documented so that somebody else until they have their own stories can borrow your stories. And again, that is a training process but requires documentation and time and most people skip that.

Speaker 1 (10:15)
Let’s walk people through then to go, okay, don’t rush to outsource sales. I think that’s our first kind of point here, but to go, all right, then when, let’s talk through, when do you start outsourcing sales? How do you start outsourcing sales? Why does outsourcing sales fail? And what needs to happen, I think, to outsource sales to somebody else effectively. So.

When do you think is the right time to have this conversation? If we’re saying it should be kind of like the last thing, how do you know when is the right time to start looking at training someone or someone’s outside of the founder to sell?

Speaker 2 (10:56)
In my opinion, this is basic laws of economics. It’s supply and demand. Like at some point when you have gotten off every single thing off of your plate that can be delegated, that can be trained to someone else that doesn’t have such a risk factor involved. And again, I just want to encourage everyone. One of the reasons we say it’s last is it has the most risk, right? If you outsource it and it doesn’t work, it fails and someone else doesn’t follow through or they bail.

Speaker 1 (11:27)
Company’s over.

Speaker 2 (11:28)
It’s catastrophic. And now you’re back in sales as the founder with everything else. Right? There are other things though that are easily or easier, but in my opinion, easily transferable that are just less, less risky. Right? So I think if you’re following the basic laws of economics, supply and demand, it’s when there is more demand on your calendar than you have supply. And that is after you have gotten off all of the administrative, all of the

operations, all of the personal tasks that can be, you know, removed or, you know, replaced with technologies, automation, outsource contractors, agencies, fractional teams, whatever, full-time employees, it doesn’t matter. But once those are all done and then there’s just so many calls on your calendar that you can’t handle it, then you start, then you start adding people in. But again, you don’t take it all off your calendar. You don’t take it all off your

plate, you gradually do that. And it’s like, okay, now I’m going to gradually start taking some of these sales calls off my calendar because that’s a part of training, right? It’s not like you hire someone, you go great. 100 % of what was on my plate is now on yours. Good luck, go team, go. That’s not how it works. And so I think it’s a gradual process. Once everything else has been outsourced, delegated, automated, eliminated, you know, referring to the focus funnel.

Speaker 1 (12:54)
Shout out to Procrastinating on Purpose, second book. It’s a good one. It does, it covers a lot of these emotions.

Speaker 2 (13:00)
But then and only then do you start the gradual process of backfilling for sales.

Speaker 1 (13:08)
And I would

say like, we’re, I feel a little bit like we’re living this right now because we did have a tougher year in revenue last year. And it’s like, what is Rory doing in this year? I’m back in sales and it’s like, I’m waking up all day, every day. And I go at the end of the day, you know, people joke about, you’re the janitor. You take the trash out. And it’s like, that’s not the thing that saves the company. Sales is the thing that saves the company. And you go, if, if, if somebody doesn’t wake up and say, I’m going to go generate leads.

then everybody’s job is in trouble. And so I view myself even today, you know, this is our second eight figure business. We’re now seven years into brand builders group as the rainmaker, right? So ultimately in the beginning, we’re doing sales calls like, and we’re actually like closing sales.

Even now, I still close some sales, but in general, I’m like, my job is to bring in leads and to create lead flow and a cascade of warm leads. And to your point, supply and demand, where I go where I don’t have another minute on my calendar to take a call. Now I start passing them to the team. And now we have full time sales team that we’re trying to fill up. And then, and then, you know, I think

the mature, you know, that phase one is you’re doing the lead generation and the selling yourself. Phase two is you get like one person who can just basically handle the overflow of your leads. And then the more advanced stages are, can I train other people to be the rainmakers and can we generate other lead sources outside of me? Because if I am the sole lead generator,

then the company is also at a big risk and a big liability if something were to happen to me.

Speaker 2 (14:57)
But I think comes back to one of the first things we talked about, is sales as a cultural component, sales as a mindset, and it doesn’t live with a person. It doesn’t live within a department. You have to have a company. You have to have a culture where everyone has leads on their mind. Everyone has revenue on their mind. Doesn’t matter if it’s in customer service, operations, finance, marketing. It’s like everyone is looking at leads in two different ways.

How do I bring them in and how do I keep the ones I have? It’s two very distinct things, but that means everyone is involved in revenue generation and revenue retention. Yes. And I was going to call it revenue protection. Protection because everyone plays a role. And if you think you don’t, well, you’re severely mistaken. And that is part of the founder’s job to communicate. No, every role is tied to revenue.

Speaker 1 (15:42)
that we’re having a new

On this note of every role is tied to revenue. think particularly like if you’re in a small business and you just think like say you’re an operational person and you’re you think I want to raise and you go why because I’ve been here a long time because I’m good at what I do because I work hard. All good reasons you should get a raise. The most practical thing that’s going to drive whether or not you get a raise

is if you contribute to revenue coming in the door, and if the revenue of the entire company is growing. If the revenue of the company is not growing, then no matter how valuable you are and how important you are, there’s not a magic pot of money that we just go, we like you, you’re so great, here’s some money, right? It’s like, we have to grow revenue. It’s different maybe when you’re in private, you have a company that’s owned by private equity and these giant corporations that just have like, you know,

They’re willing to go massively into debt and they have all these different ways of banks and stuff to finance. It’s not most American businesses. And so most American businesses live and die by revenue, including your job, no matter what position you’re in. So to your point about everybody needs to care about this, that’s how you get a raise. It’s like you’re either bringing a customer in or you’re keeping a customer.

Speaker 2 (16:54)
That’s not most American.

It’s rather you’re generating revenue or you’re protecting the revenue, but every role is tied to revenue

Speaker 1 (17:14)
So let’s talk now about actually the function of outsourcing sales. So we go, okay, it’s time once there is enough demand generated, there’s an overflow of leads. So what’s the first thing we do ⁓ when we step into that? it could be six months in, it could be a year in, it could be five years in, but whenever…

we go, there’s more leads than I can keep up with. What’s the first thing we go out and do? How do we start thinking about what are the mission critical essential things to scale revenue beyond the founder?

Speaker 2 (17:52)
Number one, you document the process of what do you do to convert a lead into a customer. that whole, again, I think this is a huge mistake that people make, not just in sales, but just in business, is they lack processes. They lack documentation and they think if I just hire someone else, they’ll know what to do. No.

Speaker 1 (17:56)
Heck yes.

Speaker 2 (18:14)
I don’t know where this mysterious belief came from, but it’s like, no, your company is unique. Your systems are unique. Your processes are unique. your products are different and the way you sell them is different. We’re all different. And so you have to go, this is how we sell here. So bring the skills that you’ve learned, bring the knowledge that you have, and then let’s adapt those into how we sell here, what story we tell here. And that is how you have done it, which means you have to sit down and go, okay,

When I have customers, what do I say? What questions do I ask? One of the easiest ways to do that is just to record yourself.

Speaker 1 (18:52)
Yeah. So, so before you dive into like the recording and the train, the materials, I just really want to edify and underscore what you said there. We tend to think that a person will be our savior if there’s an issue or like a company and it’s like, we need help. And it’s like, no, it’s the process. You need the process because if you do get lucky and you find a unicorn who can just step in and take off and like run.

Speaker 2 (19:07)
I need help. hear about all of I just need help.

Speaker 1 (19:20)
Now you’re vulnerable to that person ⁓ leaving, which is what a founder is. The founder is like, it’s great for the founder to have passion, but if we don’t document the processes in the founder’s head, the whole company is vulnerable to something happened to that founder. So documenting the process that we take people through and what happens at each stage in each step is truly number one. And I think it is not something people think about. It’s the opposite of how people think in the world.

Speaker 2 (19:51)
Yeah, I think one of the things that we’ve learned, our prior company was a sales consulting and sales training company, so we have a lot to say about this. This is really all I did for companies for 13 years. This is it. All day, every day, I was thinking about what is your sales process? ⁓ How do you open? How do you close? What questions do you ask in between? Like this is all I did. And it is a severely missed thing, small business or corporate big business. ⁓

the board it’s amazing to me how many companies purely have no consistent process and it just totally depends on who you talk to with what’s going to be said today because there isn’t a consistent theme of what questions do we know are the most important to ask.

What are the pieces of information we need to get from the prospective client to know if they’re the right fit for us? Because not everyone is. And it’s like those things are severely undervalued in the importance of having a process that gives a consistent experience prospect to prospect, which is a part of how you create consistent revenue flow is that.

Everyone goes through the same process. Why? Because then you can figure out what works and what doesn’t. Who’s the ideal client? Who’s not? Because we’re all doing the same thing. But if no one’s doing the same thing, then some people get sold something very different than the next person, even though it’s the same product, same service, same company.

Speaker 1 (21:19)
I mean, what I just heard you say there is a consistent process precedes consistent revenue.

Speaker 2 (21:27)
100%.

Speaker 1 (21:29)
Totally. And I think one of the mistakes you got to watch out for when you’re making that transition from the founder or whatever, the executive leader, CEO selling to somebody else is because of the passion and because of the backstory and because of the things that we said earlier about why you don’t push sales off until the last kind of possible moment, founders can typically talk more in a sales conversation.

and sell more because they have so much passion. If your salespeople come on and all they do is talk, talk, talk, you’re gonna lose sales. So when you are saying you have to figure out questions, what are the right questions to ask? One of our big beliefs is that you are selling when they are talking in professional salesmanship, in true scalable revenue with true systems and true processes. And so I think

under like figuring out what those questions are is a really important first step. Now you said record yourself. So go back, go back to that and pick up from there.

Speaker 2 (22:37)
Yeah. And I’ll, and I’ll just add this in, like one of the things that I have seen over my 20 years in sales has been you can take a top performing salesperson at another organization and bring them into yours and with no process, no system, no way of doing things. And they’ll be a C player and a heartbeat. They’ll go from being a top producing performer somewhere else, which is why you hired them and you expect them to come in and just figure it out. And they went from a top performing to an average or below average performing person.

overnight and you think it’s them. It’s not them. Right? You can do the same thing. You can take someone who’s never been in sales, put them through a proper process with the right scripts, the right training, the right accountability and turn them into a top performing person because you’re like, I know this works here. How do I know? Cause I’ve been doing it for the last this many years and I have documented it. And I know if you ask this and you say this and it’s this type of person, this is what’s going to happen. There’s predictability in it.

Now there’s a numbers part of that too, but that is the power of a process, specifically in sales, but not only in sales. So yeah, so how do you start building that process is you just start recording yourself.

Speaker 1 (23:48)
So on this note, so there’s a metaphor that we use, by the way, we, one of our courses is called scale your sales. It’s in our phase four curriculum. For those of you that are members, you have access to that. We walk you through the eight S’s of creating a predictable revenue inside any organization. But one of the metaphors that we use, which you’re touching on here is we talk about the seed and the soil, right? So the environment is the soil and you got to have great processes. You can take a healthy seed.

That is a perfect seed, but if it’s placed in the wrong soil, it will not grow. Right. And likewise, if you have great soil, but you have the wrong seed, it won’t grow. so part of the trick with sales is going, I need to find the right seed, the right type of person for what we do. And then most importantly, I need to create the right environment for them to flourish. And when you do that, you get, that’s where the exponential growth happens. ⁓ so finding, finding those people is, a huge, huge part. Okay. So pick up, pick up. So you’re recording.

This is step one of creating a sales process starts with you recording yourself.

Speaker 2 (24:52)
Now what I would say today is very different than what I would have said two years ago or even a year ago because of the emergence of AI right and this makes it inexcusable for you not to have a process today like what would have taken a company months and a lot of money to pay me to do right so I’m glad I’m not doing that anymore because I would have been like you don’t even need me like there’s a part of that where it’s like yeah pay for some strategy but literally

what would have cost companies tens of thousands of dollars and months of their time, I could probably now whip out for someone in 48 hours because of AI. there is no excuse. It’s inexcusable. So what I would do is I would take 10 sales calls that I, the founder, have actually done myself. I would take at least five that have gone as ideal as possible.

Speaker 1 (25:29)
Because of AI.

like normal.

Speaker 2 (25:48)
Normal,

right? So not the weird outliers or this, this, that, but ideally those five would have also been yeses, right? Then I’m gonna take two that resulted in a outlier type of situation, but somehow came back into, okay, that was a little unique, but this is where we landed, right? So that gets you to seven. And then I would take three where they were clearly not a fit.

Right? And how do you know they’re in a fit? They said no, they did not buy. That’s how you know they were in a fit. But I would take 10, right? And that’s how I would get to the 10. I would take each of those recordings. I would have them transcribed. And then I would upload those into your preferred AI model, chat, GBT, Claw, Gemini, whatever you use, doesn’t matter. And then you gotta have a really good healthy prompt. And the first thing you would do is you have to ask yourself, what are the parts of a sales script? Right? So you have to know that.

Right? So this is where people would still actually pay for sales consulting today is, we don’t know that. Right? But what’s the strategy that I’m actually looking for? You can’t just say, hey, listen to these and create me a sales script. Right. That’s not how it works. That’s where AI doesn’t help you. You humans still have to have the strategy of what do I want you to do? Then AI is the expedition to

Speaker 1 (27:01)
which by the way, if you are a brand builders member, you have access to brand bot, which is everything we teach. One of our bots is called Sales Script Bot. It has already been trained on all the principles that we teach in our service centered methodology. And so it will take your entire brand memory of all the other things you’ve been uploading and it will automatically create you a custom script for your business.

based on our expertise on top of it and it will give you that structure and that’s one of the reasons we created the tool is AI can’t just really whip that part out but either way it’d still be much better than nothing. You could still get much further than you could, know, decade ago.

Speaker 2 (27:41)
Sales script bot is unique for members for all non members. I think this is this is really important It’s like you have to have this strategy to know what to do and then you have to tell it and so let’s talk about what are the parts of a script right and some people don’t like the word script call it outline guidelines talk tracks, whatever Don’t get hung up on the words. I’m gonna use script because it’s the easiest thing to do And the first thing is you have to have an opening Right. It’s like what and it asked it to evaluate of these ten sales calls. Find me. What are the costs?

common themes in my opening, right? So how do you actually start the conversation? That could be a sentence, a paragraph, it could be one minute, it could be five minutes, but what are the components of how I open in my sales calls? Part two is what are the most common and the most impactful questions that I ask that elicit responses that lead to a sale?

Right? And again, this is, this is a part of your expedition process. This doesn’t mean this is going to be what it is. It’s like what you’re looking for here. What are the common themes? What are the common practices? What are the commonalities amongst all the people that I talked to that happen on a recurring basis? Now, if you find there are none, well then you’re, then you’ve got to use this own process of going, well maybe that’s why I have really inconsistent sales. I don’t do anything the same. Huh.

Speaker 1 (28:54)
You’re trouble.

Speaker 2 (29:05)
And I would say also if you’re a salesperson who’s listening to this, I would also say this practice isn’t just for founders. This is for salespeople too. Anyone who is generating revenue has to be in the art of listening to what you do. This is your craft. This is your skill set.

Speaker 1 (29:21)
or

sales managers building a sales team. I it’s 100%.

Speaker 2 (29:25)
What you have to Imagine a professional sports team going out on the field and they’ve never watched game footage. Or had a play. Imagine. Can you imagine?

Speaker 1 (29:32)
or how to playbook.

Salespeople do that every day.

Speaker 2 (29:37)
In business, it happens all day long, every single day, and that’s why so many people run out of runway. That’s why 90 % of small businesses don’t make it past 10 years. There’s a reason why. They’re not committed to the documentation, to the process. They’re not committed to the playbook. They’re not committed to the practice and the discipline of rinse and repeat, rinse and repeat, make it better, do it again, do it again, do it again. And I think that’s the power of sports.

That’s the power of being on a team is it teaches you like, there’s systems and rhythms. and there’s practice required. Y’all, same for business. Same for business.

Speaker 1 (30:15)
I

think a lot of people don’t realize how much of a science sales is. A lot of people think sales is just like this magic. It’s like you’re a funny person and you’re just like born with this talent to go out and sell. They have no idea how predictive it can be, how tactical, how structured, how it’s something that you can create a process, which is one of the reasons like for us, we’ve been blessed to like

I’m never concerned about sales. I mean, I focus on it, but I’m not worried about it because if our sales aren’t there, I know, oh, all we have to do is recommit to executing this set of fundamentals. And it will work. It’s not the theory of averages. It’s the law of averages. questions. Okay, so let’s talk about questions for a second. So high level, okay. Again, it’s a science for us. We’ve spent a lot of time studying this. And with the people we work with, we go deep, deep, deep. If you’re just starting out,

Speaker 2 (30:59)
to his questions.

Speaker 1 (31:13)
Don’t be too intimidated because at the end of the day, here’s what a sales is. You ask questions about what somebody wants their life to look like, and you ask questions about how does their life look currently now, and what’s the difference between the two. That’s what we call the gap, right? So if you ask them,

what do they want their life to look like or their business to look like or whatever you’re selling, right? Their marriage to look like, their health to look like. You ask them questions that cause them to articulate consciously what they want in their life and then you ask them questions about what their life looks like now. That delta creates the buying zone. That creates the gap. If it’s very clear they want something, they don’t have it and you’re positioned to go, we’re the bridge between those,

That is all of that is all of sales. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (32:10)
So part two is the questions, right? It’s like, what are the questions that you have to ask for you to determine if they’re a great fit for what you offer, right? And I think that’s an important distinction. These aren’t questions you Let’s talk about this. These aren’t questions you ask to sell them on what you offer.

Speaker 1 (32:25)
So this is a very radical philosophy that you have, we have, that is different. We don’t actually try to sell to every person we talk to. We don’t actually believe that every person should buy from us. Tell them what we actually do believe and what we try to instill in this.

Speaker 2 (32:44)
sales team. Well, I can tell you what I believe. I’m like sure it’s in alignment with what you believe. But I believe it’s like, listen, not everyone is a fit for me and I’m not a fit for everyone. I’m trying to work with an ideal client who I know, who I know because of the way they’ve answered these questions, are well positioned to get results that I know will happen if they do it. But here’s what’s important to me and here’s something that we’re trying to position our sales team. If you sell to everyone and we’re not completely sure that they’re aligned, when they

don’t succeed because they weren’t a fit, because they weren’t going to do the process, it makes us look bad. Right. It’s like all of a sudden their inability to follow through, their inability to commit because we didn’t ask the right questions and we didn’t present it the right way makes us look like we don’t know what we’re doing because they didn’t succeed. I want to work with people who I know will actually get results from our program because when they do get results, guess what happens?

Speaker 1 (33:41)
They were for everybody.

Speaker 2 (33:42)
They

refer everyone and they say, my gosh, this is the best program. It has changed my life. And we say all the time that the best form of marketing on the planet is a changed life. So work with people who you can change their life and they will send people to you, right? Because when you change someone’s life, they can’t help but tell people if you did a pretty good job, if you just like skidded through, no, I ain’t nobody talking about that. But if you go, oh my gosh.

This is amazing. I could not have done this without X, Y, and Z. And it doesn’t matter what it is. Like we’re moving into a new house right now and ⁓ we just got window coverings, right? And I sat through and did the wholesale presentation with the company that did all of our window coverings. And you might think that’s not necessarily a life-changing experience, right? So why would anyone recommend someone who sells window coverings? Like my walking around going, these window coverings have changed my life. No, but every single time someone comes into my house and I’m going like,

Look at how awesome these are. Like, look at this. It’s like, look at this. It’s like, they’re like, who did those? I’m like, and I’m happy to refer them. So am I screaming from the rooftops, window coverings changed my life? No. And at the same token, it’s going like, it was such a simple, easy process. They did what they said they were gonna do. They showed up. They had a simple install. When they found the errors, I didn’t even have to find them. They’re like, hey, just wanna let you know we saw this, we’re on it. We’ve already reordered the pieces. I’m like,

my gosh. That’s, that is customer service. I didn’t even have to go around and do it. They did it for me. So you have to think about it. This isn’t about the mountaintop life changing moments. It’s like, I didn’t even have to do a walkthrough. They found the errors and then they notified me and they’ve already ordered replacements and I didn’t even have to ask for it. That’s amazing.

Speaker 1 (35:32)
And I think if you, if you do sales, right. Sales should not be about pressure and persuasion. Sales should simply be a conversation about collaboration. And that’s something that’s very different. And if you do it that way, takes the pressure off your prospect and it takes the pressure off of you as a salesperson to go, I’m not trying to tuck you into something. I’m trying to discover if we have a match, right? And if we have a match and I know, like if we don’t have a match, I will tell you and say,

Speaker 2 (35:55)
.

Speaker 1 (36:02)
you know what, we’re not the right fit to work together and that’s okay. But if we do have a match, I’m gonna tell you, look, if you’re a mission driven messenger and you want to build your personal brand, we can change your freaking life. That’s what we do here, right? There’s a certain type of person.

Speaker 2 (36:17)
That conviction comes from asking the right questions and when they say the right answers, you’re like ding, ding, ding, ding. That’s right. That’s your choice. that’s part two is questions. Then part three ⁓ is what people would say the presentation, right? But what we would say is the conversation, right? I think a lot of people think sales is a presentation and that’s where they make the mistake. It’s a dialogue, not a monologue. But once you have the questions, now you move into, well, let me tell you what we do, how we do it, and why I think it’s a fit for you based on what you just told me.

me, right? So it’s the opening, right? Your introduction, it’s the questions, then it’s the presentation, right? And inevitably then it’s the questions. In sales, well, right? But I think in a lot of things, the questions can come in two different ways. They ask questions, which a lot of people perceive as objections. And we ask questions, which a lot of people perceive as closing. They’re just questions. Sales is just a series of questions from beginning to end from

Speaker 1 (36:57)
The closing questions.

Speaker 2 (37:16)
How are you today to do you want to give me your credit card? It’s just a series of questions ⁓ that go in a specific order and a flow. So you go from the opening, you go to the questioning, you go to the presenting, and then you go to the questioning, which is just part two of the beginning of the questioning. And it’s rather going to happen in two different flows, whether you’re going to have questions for them, such as, hey, does this seem like it’s a fit for you? Right? Does this fit in your budget?

Or they’re gonna have questions for you like, well, how much is this? How long is it gonna take? What are the payment terms? What are the agreement terms? But questions are gonna happen either way. Ideally, the presentation leads into you asking them a question, which is, based on what you heard today, does this feel like it’s a fit? Right? And then, it’s typically, people are gonna go, well, depends. How much is it? What are the timelines? And again,

Don’t get caught up in the idea of now it’s time to close or now I have to be prepared for objections. It’s just a conversation that continues with questions to drive people to a yes or a no. And I think that’s our big goal when it comes to sales, whether it’s the founder or it’s a brand new person who’s just entering into sales. The entire point of this entire conversation is to bring people to a point of decision. That is it. And I think it’s a successful sale.

If you get a yes, in my opinion, it’s a successful sale. If you get a no, the only unsuccessful sales conversations to me are water left open ended, which is that maybe follow up with me in three months. That is unsuccessful. A yes is good. A no is good. A maybe no good.

Speaker 1 (39:02)
Yeah, so if you are listening to this going, need help creating a sales process, either for myself, for my team to scale or just to find one person to take extra leads off your plate. If you get a free brand call.com forward slash podcast, that’s free brand call.com forward slash podcast. We’ll do our first call with you for free.

Again, we just wanna do, we’re gonna have a conversation with you and try to understand where you’re at and see if we can help you. And that’s what we’re here for, is to help you grow your impact and your income. That’s why we have the podcast. Before we land the plane, we’ve got our community question segment that we need to answer. This is a chance where our members, our active members in our program get to ask a question to submit to me and AJ to answer here on the podcast.

Speaker 2 (39:56)
All right, y’all. So here’s the question. I’ve scaled to seven figures, but I still feel like I’m the only one who can actually close sales. I’ve got a small sales team, but unless I’m on the call, things stall. How do I get my sales team to sell without me micromanaging every move? What a pertinent question. And I have to be honest, we did not know this was the question before we started, or at least I didn’t.

But here’s my answer to that. The very first thing that I would do to whoever asked this question would be ask yourself an honest question. Do you have a documented sales process?

Speaker 1 (40:34)
starts with having the documented process, and then you got to coach to it, you got to train to it, you got to hold accountable to it. So one of the things that we’ve done internally and ⁓ also have made available to our members is we created SalesGraderBot, where we upload the manuscript of what the sales talk.

is or the the the talk track of what it’s supposed to be and then you can upload the transcript of a recording of what a sales call actually was and then it will compare the two and it will grade each of the segments of the call that we talked about in this interview and it will give recommendations. So whether you have a tool to do that like we use and built or you’re doing it manually the point is you have to have a process and then you have to train and manage and hold accountable to that process.

Speaker 2 (41:21)
So I would say…

Once you ask yourself the first question is, do you have a documented sales process? If in your heart of hearts, you can go, I do, I really do. Then the question is, are you actually managing your sales team? Which means, are you actually listening to their calls? Are you auditing recordings? Are you sitting down with them going, you see this process and you see what you’re doing? They don’t line up. Because if you had a true process that you use and you go, well, I know it works. Like, I know it does. So then the question is, are they using it?

And if you’re not auditing calls and you’re not sitting down and listening to recordings and then coaching them, that would be the second question. It’s like, if you really have a sales process and you’re like, I did that, but it’s not working unless you’re on the call, then they’re likely not using it. Not because they’re defiant or they don’t want to. It’s like, people get off track. It’s like squirrel, rabbit, I forgot. yeah, I need to come back to that. So it’s, do you have one? And then are they using it?

Those would be the two things I would go back and reflect on as the founder or the sales manager. And in order to know that you have to have recordings, you have to audit them, and then you have to sit down and listen to them with your sales team. Pull up your sales process, pull up your scripts, listen, and go minute by minute. Yes, that feels like micromanaging. That’s not a bad thing. That’s also called training and coaching. Pull it up minute by minute and go make sure what they’re doing and what you have on paper actually match.

Speaker 1 (42:49)
To use the analogy that you used earlier, every professional athlete watches film and the coach pauses it and says, right here, do you see where you went this way? You should have gone that way. That is not what amateurs do. That’s what professionals do. Professionals get into the minute details of accountability. They have professional coaching. They get into the nitty gritty of not this, this.

and they do it again and again and again and again. So if you wanna be paid like a professional, you need to act like a professional. Professionals have coaches. If you need a coach, that’s part of what we do. You want your people to perform like professionals, they need a coach. That’s a part of what you have got to do. And that’s a reason to keep coming back and listen to this show every single week and share this episode with your team or anyone who you think should hear it.

Thanks for being a part of the wealthy and well-known podcast and a part of the brand builders group community. We’ll see you next time.

WWK Ep 011: Credibility vs. Virality: Why Trust Builds Businesses and Trends Don’t

Rory: [00:00:00] They take a viral video and they copy it, they replicate [00:00:05] it. They literally regurgitate it. They go, these are the types of videos that are going [00:00:10] viral. These are the kind of topics that are going viral. And then they. Basically clone it, [00:00:15] and that doesn’t make you a thought leader, that makes you a copycat.

I’m [00:00:20] not saying that you shouldn’t do that. I’m not necessarily saying it’s the wrong thing, but what I am saying [00:00:25] is that does not make you a thought leader. Yeah. That does not make you trusted. That [00:00:30] does not make you an authority.[00:00:35] [00:00:40] [00:00:45]

AJ: Welcome to the Wealthy and Well-Known podcast. I am joined here [00:00:50] by my partner in crime, Roy Vaden. Um, and today we’re gonna be [00:00:55] talking about why credibility beats virality. Mm-hmm. And this is [00:01:00] a special topic for me because I have a love hate relationship with all things social [00:01:05] media and all things that go viral.

There’s a love hate there. Uh, but here’s what I [00:01:10] think is really important is like attention. Is cheap, but [00:01:15] trust lasts forever. Right? And it’s like, are we doing everything that we’re doing to just [00:01:20] get attention? Are we actually doing it with real credibility that builds real [00:01:25] trust over time? So here’s the question.

What have you disappeared from social [00:01:30] media, from your digital footprint for 30 days? Would your [00:01:35] ideal customer still know, you know about, you know, what you do, still look for you, wait for [00:01:40] you? Or would they completely forget that you even existed? All right. So Rory, [00:01:45] here’s what we’re gonna do. We’re gonna start with this, uh, idea, this topic of the category of one.

Rory: Mm-hmm.

AJ: [00:01:50] So how do you become a category of one where you are the trusted [00:01:55] expert? That attracts your ideal customer, right? A trusted [00:02:00] customer who comes to you because of your credibility and your trust, not just because they saw [00:02:05] you on a viral cat video.

Rory: Mm-hmm. Yes. So I think [00:02:10] I would start the conversation to go, how do you do that versus how do you go [00:02:15] viral?

The way that you go viral. The most common way that people go viral [00:02:20] today is they take a viral video and they copy it. [00:02:25] They replicate it. They literally regurgitate it. They go, these are the types of [00:02:30] videos that are going viral. These are the kind of topics that are going viral. And then they. [00:02:35] Basically clone it.

And that doesn’t make you a thought leader. That [00:02:40] makes you a copycat. I’m not saying that you shouldn’t do that. I’m not necessarily saying it’s the [00:02:45] wrong thing, but what I am saying is that does not make you a thought leader. Yeah. That does [00:02:50] not make you trusted. That does not make you an authority. That does not make you [00:02:55] credible.

It, it makes, makes you, it makes you a commentator. It makes you a commentator. It makes you a copycat. You’re, you’re a [00:03:00] clone, like literally cloning now.

AJ: Or you go on. But is that [00:03:05] bad?

Rory: I don’t think it’s always bad. Um, I think [00:03:10] there’s a lot of wisdom to going, look, we’re there, there is a war for attention, and you’re going, [00:03:15] how do you get attention?

Well, you can pay for it, but if you’re not rich, then how do you get it? You have to earn it. You gotta [00:03:20] figure out a way. So I, I, I’m, I’m not necessarily against it. I am against. Plagiarism.

AJ: Mm-hmm. [00:03:25]

Rory: Uh, like verbatim plagiarism. And I would say I have a general [00:03:30] distaste for it personally. Like I would never trust somebody where I go, like, I [00:03:35] literally saw almost that exact same video from somebody else like.

Six weeks ago or [00:03:40] whatever. And that is what is, what is happening a lot right now. So,

AJ: so,

Rory: but [00:03:45] at the same time we do, we research viral videos to identify topics [00:03:50] because that tells you what the public is interested in. Right? So there’s a, there’s a balance there.

AJ: So, yeah. So I guess what I [00:03:55] was gonna ask is, you know, that old saying that’ll quote, if it ain’t broke, don’t [00:04:00] fix it.

Right? And not a little bit of this, of like, well, hey, everyone has figured out. Like this is what [00:04:05] goes viral. This is what works. Um. What, where, where’s the [00:04:10] line? Like that feels like a lot of gray area

Rory: of, of what you’re, you’re saying you should do that. [00:04:15]

AJ: I’m asking.

Rory: Well, I think, I think that there’s a difference.

There’s a [00:04:20] difference between attention and authority.

AJ: Mm-hmm.

Rory: Modeling [00:04:25] or mimicking viral patterns is a way to get attention [00:04:30] and to the extent that attention is deserved and appropriate. I don’t think there’s [00:04:35] anything wrong with it, but I don’t believe that’s the way to build authority. It’s it’s [00:04:40] smoke.

It’s. It’s smoke and mirrors, right? Because even if I have lots of followers and you think I know what I’m talking [00:04:45] about, the moment we actually engage and you find out, oh, I don’t actually [00:04:50] really know anything, I’m just parroting stuff from other people. You can’t build a [00:04:55] business that way. You can’t build a brand that way.

It’s the difference between a social [00:05:00] media following. And an actual brand that lasts the test of time, [00:05:05] right? Speakers try to hack, uh, this, where they’re like, well, I’m gonna hack the [00:05:10] algorithm. So when you put you search, best keynote speaker, my name pops up. Okay. I’m [00:05:15] not against that technique, but I’m telling you,

AJ: once you get on stage,

Rory: once you get on stage, [00:05:20] you can’t fake it.

And if you, if, if you come on stage and then somebody comes out there either [00:05:25] before you or after you who is a real professional, you’re gonna be embarrassed. You’re [00:05:30] going to, you’re going to look so you can trick people. For a while, [00:05:35] right? You can trick people to get attention, but you can’t trick people long-term into [00:05:40] building authority.

You have to be a person of substance. You have to be a true thought leader. And so what we [00:05:45] do at Brand Builders Group, honestly, I would say is a balance. It’s a blend of attention and [00:05:50] authority, but I would say we have a strong disposition towards authority [00:05:55] driving things towards trust, building things towards credibility and [00:06:00] virality as kind of like secondary in nature.

AJ: You know what I. Takeaway from what I just [00:06:05] heard you say, and I don’t think I’ve ever thought about it this exact way, is that virality may build [00:06:10] your audience, but credibility and authority actually builds your business.

Rory: [00:06:15] Hmm.

AJ: And I think those are really two distinct things that people get confused often.[00:06:20]

Like do more followers equal more business. Not [00:06:25] necessarily, uh, sometimes, but there’s no direct correlation per se, [00:06:30] unless you’re actually talking about things that relate to your business, to your authority, to your credibility, and are you [00:06:35] talking to your target audience versus whatever went viral?

Rory: And do you [00:06:40] have a real like system of business?

So I think a lot of people today put a lot of [00:06:45] emphasis on systems and processes and strategies to attract [00:06:50] attention,

AJ: right?

Rory: And they don’t put the same rigor into the systems and processes and [00:06:55] methodology to deliver client results.

AJ: Amen.

Rory: So they bring a lot of people. [00:07:00] Then nobody transforms. Nobody. You know, they, they charge whatever [00:07:05] they, they, they charge the most they can, they make short term money and then the thing falls [00:07:10] apart and they can’t figure out why.

And they’re like, oh, well, leads are more expensive. It’s like, no, because, because your business [00:07:15] isn’t built on solid principles. Okay. And real expertise.

AJ: So let’s go back to this question of this [00:07:20] becoming this category of one, which I love this idea of like virality versus true authority. [00:07:25] Mm-hmm. And okay.

Define for us then, what is true [00:07:30] authority and what’s the difference when it comes to this digital ecosystem that we’re all [00:07:35] living in?

Rory: Yeah, so I think true authority comes [00:07:40] from a track record of results. The number one place that authority comes from is [00:07:45] a track record of results. Of results, and I think that track record starts in your own [00:07:50] life and your ability to produce a result.

And then it is. [00:07:55] You know, further expanded by your ability to create that result in the [00:08:00] lives of others, right? It’s why on the inside cover of this book it says. You’re most powerfully [00:08:05] positioned to serve the person you once were. It’s why that’s become such a mantra for our community and [00:08:10] our members is because we’re going, that may not be the way to go viral the [00:08:15] fastest.

It is the way to build a business the fastest. Your [00:08:20] credibility doesn’t come from. It also doesn’t come from trite, things like that you’ve been in the media or [00:08:25] that you got a fancy degree from a big school or your social media following, or who your [00:08:30] friends are. It comes from the actual ability to deliver results, [00:08:35] and that isn’t necessarily the same thing that gets you massive [00:08:40] attention.

AJ: Okay. I have a question for you going off script a little bit. Why not? [00:08:45] Like why doesn’t real authority, real expertise, real thought [00:08:50] leadership, why doesn’t that attract attention? Why doesn’t that go viral?

Rory: [00:08:55] Because viral is all [00:09:00] about the unexpected, right? Viral is about the sensational [00:09:05] viral is about. The, the most emotional, it’s the, [00:09:10] it’s the most unusual vi viral is, um, I mean sensational would be [00:09:15] the word.

Viral.

AJ: Go ahead.

Rory: Viral tends to happen at the extremes, but [00:09:20] success. Tends to be about being brilliant at the basics, focusing on [00:09:25] the fundamentals, mastering the things. Most of success in life [00:09:30] comes from doing the unsexy things really well, and [00:09:35] unsexy doesn’t go viral. That’s, that’s why real authority, [00:09:40] real thought leadership often doesn’t go viral because real authority and real thought leadership is [00:09:45] focused on creating a transformation and a result.

And that’s usually being brilliant at the [00:09:50] basics, not attracting attention, which is a bunch of random stuff we’ve never heard. That’s so like, [00:09:55] you know, captivating. And so, you know, there can be a blend of both. But that’s, that’s [00:10:00] how I would answer that question.

AJ: Yeah, it’s interesting, like the way I interpret that is almost, it’s [00:10:05] like.

At the basics, uh, being successful is almost [00:10:10] boring. It’s like the true keys, uh, to success. The [00:10:15] fundamentals of like what makes you successful are pretty boring. They’re [00:10:20] consistent. They’re, uh, repetitive, they’re boring.

Rory: I mean, look at [00:10:25] our, our first book, take the Stairs. Like that is the truth. You want to be, you want to know how to be [00:10:30] successful in life.

Read that book. It’s never changed. It never will change. Yeah. Everything in there is [00:10:35] timeless. That book doesn’t go, doesn’t go viral because. It’s not what [00:10:40] people want to hear, it’s what they need to hear. And I think that’s just a big [00:10:45] difference. It’s a difference between media, by the way, right? Media is not in the business of [00:10:50] accuracy.

Yeah. Media is not in the business of truth. Media is not in the business of transformation. [00:10:55] Media is in the business of attention, and the more polarizing, the more [00:11:00] emotional, the more controversial, the more unusual, the more sensational, the more people pay [00:11:05] attention and they make money from attention because they make money on advertising.

When you’re building a [00:11:10] brand, though, you’re building a sustainable, I deliver a result. That comes [00:11:15] from the fact that hard work, hard

AJ: work, and time,

Rory: and time and and experience.

AJ: [00:11:20] People don’t love hearing that.

Rory: No, they don’t. They don’t, it’s not, at least, it’s just not what they pay [00:11:25] attention to,

AJ: but yet it is the truth.

Rory: Absolutely. Now, the [00:11:30] good news about that is that anybody, you know, if you’re struggling in your business right now and [00:11:35] you’re, you’re scared and you’re like, I don’t know where to turn. I don’t know what to do. You should have faith that you [00:11:40] go. If you find someone who knows and who’s been successful, they will tell you.[00:11:45]

These are the principles. These are the basics. And if you master these things, you [00:11:50] can’t not succeed. Like it’s impossible. Like the [00:11:55] principles. The success principles are true in every walk of life and in every [00:12:00] department or function of a business. And if you do them well. You will win [00:12:05] eventually, but people waste all their time chasing a bunch of like [00:12:10] sensational garbage.

Right.

AJ: So let’s talk about some of these basics that you’re talking about doing work. ’cause some people might be listening going, what [00:12:15] are these basics? What are, yeah. Tell me what are the basics? Gimme the boring stuff. Um, so let’s talk about the [00:12:20] boring stuff for a minute, because I think if that’s really where true authority.

Comes [00:12:25] from, and that’s where credibility comes from, thus trust, right? And those are the true [00:12:30] building blocks. Then let’s talk about those for a minute. I think it’s worthwhile to, you know, explore [00:12:35] well, how can we have this combination of the truth and the basics and the [00:12:40] fundamentals, and how do we actually make that go viral today?

What I would love to see something going viral [00:12:45] is telling the truth of like, it takes time. And hard work [00:12:50] and discipline, like I’d love for that to be a message that’s preached a little bit more. It might not be the [00:12:55] sexy one, but it is a true one. Um, but let’s talk about the basics. What are they? So when you say, Hey, [00:13:00] doesn’t matter.

Who tells you this? Like these are the timeless principles of success. These [00:13:05] are the basic building blocks of true business. What they,

Rory: yeah, so I mean, it depends [00:13:10] on what the context is. If we’re going, are we talking about there’s, there’s principles of sales, [00:13:15] there’s principles of marketing, right? So we teach.

Eight figure entrepreneur. We teach that [00:13:20] every business is, has eight functions. Eight doesn’t matter if you have one person or you [00:13:25] have a hundred thousand employees, there’s eight functions. I would argue that [00:13:30] marketing sales. Fulfillment, customer service, hr, [00:13:35] finance, administration, operations, and it all have fundamentals for those things.[00:13:40]

If you’re talking about personal development, right? That would be more like the Take the Stairs book. These are the, the [00:13:45] truths of success of personal development. If you talked about the principles of time management, I would [00:13:50] say that’s what my second book was all about. Uh, you know, five permissions to multiply your Time.[00:13:55]

If you wanna know the principles of being successful at personal branding, that’s what this is. And [00:14:00] by the way. I actually think if you look at our life story, if you look at the [00:14:05] arc of our career in many ways we’re like the tortoise in the [00:14:10] tortoise versus the hare. We teach truths. We talk about [00:14:15] principles.

We don’t focus first on gaining attention. We’ve [00:14:20] played the long game and that shows up in our life in how we live and [00:14:25] the family we have and, and the various things that God has blessed us with. But [00:14:30] one thing we have not done is accumulated massive large audiences. Mm-hmm. [00:14:35] And I think hopefully that’s in invigorating for some people to [00:14:40] go, oh, the sooner I stop chasing the glamor and the glitz of just [00:14:45] attention.

And the sooner I dig my heels in and go, I’m gonna, I’m gonna, [00:14:50] I’m gonna focus on principles and living principles in my life and teaching [00:14:55] principles in my business. I can build a life changing [00:15:00] business. Um, but it, it also, you know, it doesn’t happen overnight. ’cause it never happens overnight. Never happens [00:15:05] overnight.

But it’s just no one wants to hear the truth.

AJ: But I wanna pick one of those topics. Okay. So since we’re kind of talking about [00:15:10] authority, thought leadership, credibility mm-hmm. Like, if you were gonna go, here are the basics of building true [00:15:15] thought leadership.

Rory: Mm-hmm.

AJ: Let’s, let’s dig in on that one.

Rory: Okay. So I, [00:15:20] I think research and results are the two.

Ultimate sources I [00:15:25] think of, of authority, and I think results is more important, right? I personally would [00:15:30] take advice from an entrepreneur who sold their business for millions of dollars over a [00:15:35] professor at an institution who has never actually owned and operated a business

AJ: all day long.

Rory: [00:15:40] Right now.

That’s not to dis just say, oh, there’s no value in academia or [00:15:45] whatever.

AJ: Definitely value

Rory: extreme, and I’m very data-driven as you know, we are very data-driven [00:15:50] and I’m very much into research and analysis as well. But if you, if you look at the [00:15:55] research side, right? The results side is pretty self-explanatory.

Did you do the deal and can you help other people do the [00:16:00] deal?

AJ: Mm-hmm.

Rory: When you talk about thought leadership, my mind goes more towards the like academia side. [00:16:05] I think, uh, reading, writing and research would be like the [00:16:10] three Rs of academic authority. So reading means [00:16:15] I’m familiar with what’s been said in my area.[00:16:20]

I used to love the term thought leader, then I didn’t like it ’cause everyone [00:16:25] used it. And now I’m like, I really like this term because it is the real term to be a [00:16:30] thought leader is to be. A leader of the thinking that’s been done in that area. [00:16:35] So there is an element of innovation, and it’s like to be a true thought leader, I’m [00:16:40] innovating my space, but I can’t innovate my space until I understand my space, until I’ve [00:16:45] actually, you know, I’m actually up to date on the, the thinking that’s [00:16:50] been done in that space.

AJ: And I think this is important because that’s also where credibility comes from. [00:16:55] It’s like you actually know what you’re talking about. Which does require research, [00:17:00] writing and reading.

Rory: Yeah.

AJ: And I think, and that doesn’t matter what your business is, even if you’re listening going, well, I [00:17:05] wouldn’t call myself a thought leader, but it’s like, but do you know your space?

Are [00:17:10] you up to date on what’s happening in the market, in the economy, uh, with your local community? [00:17:15] Like whatever your business is, like, are you up to date on what’s happening with the thing that you do?

Rory: Yeah, and [00:17:20] I think that it’s important because, so we have a lot of clients at Brand Builders Group who were very [00:17:25] successful entrepreneurs and some of ’em times they’re like, well, you know, I know, I know a hundred times more [00:17:30] than Gary Vaynerchuk knows I should have all the followers.

And it’s like, well, results matters [00:17:35] for a lot. And I would say it should be number one, but. Your results also are very isolated to your [00:17:40] specific situation. So if you don’t understand the landscape of your space, it’s like what you [00:17:45] did may not be the thing that works for everybody all the time. [00:17:50] I do think it’s like the foundation, but the reading is going okay, I need to [00:17:55] understand what other people are experiencing.

And the research is really key to go, how do we [00:18:00] put data? How do we really separate a myth from truth? [00:18:05] How do we isolate? Tangible, practical things [00:18:10] and to like analyze and understand [00:18:15] empirically our space. And then writing, I think is one of the lost elements of [00:18:20] true thought leadership and a really critical one.

I

AJ: don’t wanna interrupt, but I, I think this is a really thing for those of you are, [00:18:25] listen. As I was listening, I, I thought about how many people that I [00:18:30] really love their writing, but when I go to hear them speak, like, and this [00:18:35] is like true thought leaders, it’s like they’re so academic, they’re [00:18:40] so well researched that I’m like, huh?

It’s like it just went over my head and [00:18:45] I’m like, wait, what? I thought I knew something and I don’t feel like, I don’t [00:18:50] know what you’re talking about. Like, so how do we not get lost in that? [00:18:55] Because it’s like, that happens a lot where it’s like, I’ll read something, I start following [00:19:00] someone and it’s like, oh, I wanna learn more about them.

And then it’s like the more that I follow them, I’m like, wait, [00:19:05] I’m clearly not their avatar. ’cause they’re talking so far above me that I feel like I’m in [00:19:10] first grade again because it’s so academic.

Rory: Yeah,

AJ: it’s so research. It’s like [00:19:15] how do I actually make this apply? It’s almost too theoretical or ambiguous or.[00:19:20]

Rory: I think you can err on either side of the spectrum. If you go, I have [00:19:25] a results-driven practitioner on one side, and I have [00:19:30] a data-driven researcher on the other side. If all you [00:19:35] know is what you’ve experienced, then I think you run the risk of being [00:19:40] detached from the reality of what other people are experiencing, and you might struggle to [00:19:45] articulate or translate what you’ve learned in a way that’s applicable to other people.

On the contrary, if you’re on [00:19:50] the other end of the spectrum here and you’re just nothing but a data-driven researcher, [00:19:55] you become detached from the reality of what people experience in the everyday world. [00:20:00] And one of the things that I love that I think is a trend of personal branding in [00:20:05] 2026 is that the people who are winning are a blend of both.

Mm-hmm. It was [00:20:10] like, you know, a lot of times there’s like this, this, the thought [00:20:15] leaders for years. Uh, you know, the people who got all the high speaking fees were like, [00:20:20] oh, I’m a bestselling author and I’ve sold all of these books, which I always find ironic [00:20:25] when I find it ironic when a Fortune 10 company pays money [00:20:30] to a speaker who runs a company of one employee to come and teach them [00:20:35] how to run their organization.

That’s a multinational corporation. I’m like, that’s a [00:20:40] big risk, right? Like you’re asking someone who has lived. Only in the world [00:20:45] of research and academia to come and teach you how to manage the complexities of a [00:20:50] multinational corporation. I’m like, it’s not that they can’t add value, I think we can learn something from everybody.

I’m just saying [00:20:55] that feels a bit disconnected. Um, and then, you know, there’s, on the other [00:21:00] side, I think there’s been a really a, a swing where it’s like we really want to hear from people who’ve done real life stuff. [00:21:05] Um. Then there’s all these marketers that have built these social media followings, which maybe [00:21:10] don’t have either, but they have a big following.

AJ: Mm-hmm.

Rory: And I think there’s this intersection that’s happening where it’s [00:21:15] like people go, no, I wanna learn from someone who’s done it, but I want them to also be data [00:21:20] driven in how they approach it. And I want them to be great at. You know, [00:21:25] producing content. Cody Sanchez,

AJ: I was gonna say, who’s, who are some examples?

Rory: Cody Sanchez is [00:21:30] one of the best examples right now. She has the track, personal track record of working in private [00:21:35] equity, you know, working on Wall Street, running her own businesses. She, they [00:21:40] operate funds, they invest in businesses. Mm-hmm. But they’re a researcher. They’re. [00:21:45] They are studying, they’re very big into data.

She’s writing, they’re [00:21:50] producing, they’re producing, and then they’re producing world class content and building an office,

AJ: but also she’s got a growing [00:21:55] platform. So what I hear you saying, it’s like, it’s really a three-part formula, right? [00:22:00] There’s the research, there’s the academia part, there’s the real world experience, and now [00:22:05] there’s this third component, which is platform matters.

Rory: Yeah. I mean, I’ve never said that, but as [00:22:10] I, I think. I think that’s the trend that is happening, and I think Gary Vaynerchuk fits that as [00:22:15] well. They, their team is very sophisticated, they’re very into research, obviously has a [00:22:20] monster platform and Gary knows what he’s talking about. Yeah, I mean, Alex Hormoz would be another one [00:22:25] where, where I’m like, man, like the guy, you know.

AJ: He researches it, he does it.

Rory: [00:22:30] He’s done it more than anything. I think Alex, he’s done it, is more of a practitioner, maybe [00:22:35] a little bit lighter on the research and writing. I mean, he’s written stuff, um, a little less [00:22:40] academia, but very practical. Mm-hmm. Um, and so I think that’s what people, they, [00:22:45] they want, um, you know, Dave Ramsey comes to mind as a longstanding person who’s like, [00:22:50]

AJ: yeah, those

Rory: are great examples.

Done all, all of those, but we wanna learn from somebody who’s done it. We [00:22:55] also want to learn from somebody who is well researched. It’s not just their opinions, [00:23:00] and we’re only going to get the chance to learn from ’em if they’re good at marketing and, and [00:23:05] media.

AJ: Otherwise, we don’t know they exist.

Rory: Bingo,

AJ: right?

Which is where components of the [00:23:10] virality come in. So does it mean it has to go global? Millions of views viral. [00:23:15] Um, but there’s. There is some importance of, you don’t wanna be the world’s best kept secret.

Rory: Can you [00:23:20] explain the, the, uh, the reputation formula to we, I haven’t really talked about that a lot on the [00:23:25] show.

We talk about it in the book, but like, it’d be good to do a review of. What the results, [00:23:30] or excuse me, the reputation formula is and how it works. I think that applies here.

AJ: Yeah, I think it’s, it’s [00:23:35] really simple and a brand builders group, uh, we talk about a very simple formula, which [00:23:40] is results times reach equals your reputation.

And [00:23:45] you can have amazing results. You can have sold your business for, uh, [00:23:50] lots of money with a huge impact and lots of employees and it’s a well established [00:23:55] business. And if. No one knows about it. And that reach is zero [00:24:00] results times zero. Zero. Mm-hmm. Which means your rep, your [00:24:05] reputation is nonexistent.

It lives in this tiny little bubble. Right. And the, [00:24:10] the opposite end of the spectrum is true as well. Right. You could have [00:24:15] tons of reach, right. Lots of followers, but if you have no real [00:24:20] results. Right. And you kind of talked about this earlier. At some point, you can only [00:24:25] pretend or fake it or ride that wave for so long, because even if you have tons of [00:24:30] followers and tons of audience and a huge platform, at some point we’re gonna realize, well, there’s no [00:24:35] real results there and this doesn’t work.

And again, reach time, zero, still zero, which means your [00:24:40] reputation, even if it’s riding away, that wave’s gonna come down, right? And it’s gonna [00:24:45] crash and go boom. And so what we’re looking for is that happy medium of how do you have real [00:24:50] results. That is again, the combination of real life experience and real [00:24:55] expertise, and that’s through both academic research and the real life [00:25:00] experiences times reach.

And for us, reach is just your [00:25:05] ideal audience. That’s your ideal avatar. The whole world doesn’t need to know about you for this to [00:25:10] equal a significant reputation for you. It’s what your person does. Right. And I think one of [00:25:15] the mistakes that I have seen people make. Again, it’s one end of the [00:25:20] spectrum or the other.

Right. And the people who I encounter who are often the best at [00:25:25] what they do, have spent nearly no time building their reach. Mm. [00:25:30] You know why? Because they’ve been building ho, they’ve been busy honing their craft, craft, building [00:25:35] their business, doing the research, doing the deal, and they have spent no time helping [00:25:40] people know about it.

Thus, their reputation is very minimal when it comes to [00:25:45] impact. That’s

Rory: right.

AJ: And to me that’s a travesty because they are the real experts. [00:25:50] No one knows about them and no one is listening to them. And who people are listening to [00:25:55] are the people on the other end of the spectrum who’ve spent all of their time mastering [00:26:00] marketing.

They have spent all their time learning how to make things go viral and becoming really well known for [00:26:05] something. And they lack real expertise. They haven’t done the real thing, they haven’t done the [00:26:10] real research. They haven’t lived the years, they haven’t seen everything, but they’re, they’re telling [00:26:15] something.

They’re preaching something to a huge audience. Is founded [00:26:20] on very few results, and that’s scary.

Rory: Yeah. And I, I [00:26:25] would say a lot of times when people think of Brand Builders Group, sometimes they see like our really well-known [00:26:30] clients and they assume that we only work with people with a lot of reach.

AJ: Yeah.

Rory: And actually [00:26:35] the vast majority of the clients we work with are the opposite.

AJ: Mm-hmm.

Rory: They have all [00:26:40] the results. Very little reach. Uh, that’s, that is most of the, most [00:26:45] of the people that are our members and that we work with are people who spent their life honing their [00:26:50] craft, and now they’re going, they’re waking up to, to, to the reality of what you just said.[00:26:55]

Um, and by the way, if you ever wanna talk to us, if you go to free brand [00:27:00] call.com/podcast, you can request a call with our team and we’ll talk you through this. So, on the results, [00:27:05] or excuse me, the reputation formula. I wanted to, uh, break it down. You [00:27:10] know, we talk about results times reach equals reputation.

Your results, I think are [00:27:15] two, two parts. Your personal results, like your personal track record and then your client’s results. [00:27:20] What results have you been able to help other clients get? And then your reach also [00:27:25] is two parts. And this is a part I really wanna highlight for those of you, um, who [00:27:30] maybe don’t have a huge following.

So

AJ: like me. That’s me.

Rory: Yeah. Yeah. This would be [00:27:35] us. This would would be us. Yeah, for sure. Um, uh, and, and I guess we could say you [00:27:40] directly Yeah. Yeah. So

AJ: this, I’m this category person,

Rory: so if you look at reach, there’s [00:27:45] two groups of reach. There’s direct reach and indirect reach. So your [00:27:50] direct reach is. How many people do you immediately have access to, right?

[00:27:55] It’s you. How many people can you get a message to through your email list, your text message list, [00:28:00] your, your social media, following your podcast, your YouTube channel. That is your direct reach. [00:28:05] You can push a message whenever you want to those people. But what a lot of [00:28:10] the people who have big results.

Have is not [00:28:15] direct reach, but indirect reach. So indirect reach is your ability to get a [00:28:20] message to people through someone you know, through someone who trusts you. [00:28:25] Right? We don’t have a huge direct reach, but we have a [00:28:30] monster indirect reach. We have some of the biggest affiliates in the world. Why?

Because we [00:28:35] helped them get results. Our biggest form of reach [00:28:40] happens not from us growing our audience. Our biggest form of reach happens from creating [00:28:45] results for our clients. And when those clients have reach, they [00:28:50] share that reach with us. And that’s part of why we always say, like in the book, the best form of [00:28:55] marketing in the world is a changed life.

So if you spent all your life getting [00:29:00] results. Don’t, you know, be so heartbroken and be like, oh, I can’t, I can’t do a [00:29:05] huge launch or, or build something quickly. You probably have big indirect reach if [00:29:10] you’ve been investing in relationships.

AJ: Yeah. And I would add maybe perhaps an alternate view to [00:29:15] this, uh, which I think is maybe helpful for some of you who are listening who fit in my category, [00:29:20] which I have a pretty small online reach.

And for some of you who are going, well, I don’t really know if I do. [00:29:25] I wanna go viral. I don’t really know if I wanna invest the time and the energy and the effort to doing [00:29:30] all this online thing. Like, I don’t know that, I don’t know if that fits me. And I would say [00:29:35] then perhaps it doesn’t. Like, perhaps it doesn’t.

And I wanna just touch on the [00:29:40] importance of when we talk about reach, you know, there’s the direct and the indirect.

Rory: Mm-hmm.

AJ: But there’s also [00:29:45] the online and the offline.

Rory: Mm-hmm.

AJ: And we always tell people, [00:29:50] go where your audience is. If your audience doesn’t live [00:29:55] online, whatcha doing on there? Like, whatcha doing online?

Right? There’s some [00:30:00] power. And yes, clearly having an online presence, but if your avatar is [00:30:05] not online and that’s not where you’re looking for them, that’s not where you’re gonna find them. Then [00:30:10] go where they are. And I think we spend a lot of time in marketing in general, [00:30:15] right? Just in the idea of finding leads and building audiences, and we spend [00:30:20] so much of our time talking about the online components that we forget about offline.

Rory: [00:30:25] Mm-hmm.

AJ: And you can build just as much credibility and authority offline than you can [00:30:30] online.

Rory: Yeah, some of the people with the biggest Rolodexes, the highest amount of [00:30:35] influence, the biggest amount of wealth have zero online. Ah. And it’s because they have a [00:30:40] massive offline.

AJ: Yes, and I was gonna say

Rory: reputation

AJ: in the monetization chapter in our [00:30:45] book, wealthy and Well-Known.

Um, I actually did research on this because I was so curious. So I [00:30:50] did a research project on who are the 10. Wealthiest [00:30:55] individuals alive in the world today, and how does that correlate with their online [00:31:00] presence? And of those only seven, or sorry, not, [00:31:05] oh, only seven, didn’t even have an online presence.

Only three had an online presence. [00:31:10] Of which, you know, mark Zuckerberg having a large online presence doesn’t count. He doesn’t count.

Rory: [00:31:15] Yeah.

AJ: He’s everybody’s

Rory: friend. He is gotten to be everybody’s,

AJ: but like seven of them did not [00:31:20] have an online presence.

Rory: Mm-hmm.

AJ: No social media account like they were. Not present [00:31:25] online.

Now, some of that, you know, take with a grain of salt because when they establish their businesses or when the businesses [00:31:30] were established through their families, this wasn’t a thing.

Rory: Yeah.

AJ: Um, so some of that take with a grain of salt, [00:31:35] but nonetheless, I thought it was really interesting of, wow, they have [00:31:40] built.

Offline networks, offline relationships, and they have [00:31:45] quote unquote, gone offline viral because of the networking and [00:31:50] the relationship building and the years and years of the showing up at the [00:31:55] nonprofit events, the networking meetings, the board meetings, uh, being present in the [00:32:00] community, being available to their clients.

They have built incredible brands for [00:32:05] their businesses and incredible impact and incredible income with zero online [00:32:10] presence. That too is possible for us today.

Rory: Yep. Yeah, so [00:32:15] you got, there’s different types of reach. There is, um, [00:32:20] different types of results and those are probably people who’ve delivered results for lots of other people.

And even though they [00:32:25] don’t have an online presence, they probably still have some type of a direct platform. They have thousands of employees, [00:32:30] customer lists, referral partners, uh, et cetera. Yeah. So, [00:32:35] so I’m curious for you. Okay. So. [00:32:40] You are, have never been impressed by celebrities, you’ve never been [00:32:45] drawn to how many followers this somebody has.

Like [00:32:50] you. It’s, it’s, it’s almost ironic that we’re in this business. I mean, when people really understand what we do, it’s not [00:32:55] because we really serve the real experts.

AJ: I was gonna say, it’s not ironic at all because the person we serve. [00:33:00] Is the person we once were, which is the person who’s just trying to make a larger [00:33:05] impact with what they’re doing.

Rory: Mm-hmm.

AJ: Not to become famous, not to go viral. That’s who [00:33:10] we serve.

Rory: Mm-hmm.

AJ: But what was your question? Sorry.

Rory: Well, my question was just like, why are you [00:33:15] not impressed at all with [00:33:20] celebrity fame followers? Or, or why do you think, what do you think [00:33:25] is different about you from like. Is that like a conscious [00:33:30] thing that you do, or is that just like innate or do you think like other, other people are, [00:33:35] you know, they, they think of it in a way or like you just, you just don’t have that like, oh, [00:33:40] I can’t that per, like you don’t fan girl at all over anyone ever.

AJ: [00:33:45] But I never have. So I think there was a part of me that was just born that way. I think [00:33:50] there was a part of me that I was raised in a entrepreneurial family where my grandfather [00:33:55] started, uh, a construction business. Then my dad took it over and my brothers are taking it over. And it was [00:34:00] just very hardcore ingrained in our being of like, success [00:34:05] comes from hard work.

And I think that was from my grandfather to my dad to [00:34:10] us. And there was, there was a, uh. A [00:34:15] consistent message in our house of like, success comes from hard work. And so I think some [00:34:20] of it stems from that, and I think some of it was God’s divine blessing over my life. [00:34:25] Um, knowing

Rory: what does impress you? Like, what is what, what are [00:34:30] then the things that you, as a consumer or a business partner or a [00:34:35] referral partner, what are the things that do, are appealing to [00:34:40] you or that you go.

Wow, this is, this is what impresses me, overcomers. [00:34:45]

AJ: Like, uh, I think this is a great example. So Rory and I share an executive life [00:34:50] coach, um, and he was our former pastor. And when he left the church, [00:34:55] when he left his pastoral work, um, we kind of lost touch for years. [00:35:00] And this was back in 2021, which was probably.

We call it the dark years. These [00:35:05] are the dark years. Um, but these were like some of the hardest years of my adult life. Like it was a [00:35:10] really dark place for me, the dark years. Um, and I finally like come to the conclusion. I’m [00:35:15] like, I need like a real life coach. Like I tried the counseling thing and [00:35:20] I was like, like, this is not what I’m looking for.

Like I need, I need. Some guidance. [00:35:25] And when I started researching and interviewing different firms and different coaches, [00:35:30] I got referred to all these places and I won’t recommend them, or I won’t mention them. It’s not that I don’t [00:35:35] recommend them, I just didn’t go with them because here’s what I found through every single one of those interviews [00:35:40] and every single one of those vetting processes as everyone was shouting their accolades.[00:35:45]

Rory: Hmm.

AJ: And I immediately thought to myself like [00:35:50] that, I can’t even be honest with them. I can even share with them what I’m trying to [00:35:55] do in our business and where I’m struggling because they have it all together [00:36:00] and it was like very well known, prominent firms and different coaching [00:36:05] programs. And I’m like, I don’t relate.

They’re in these high seasons of life with these [00:36:10] huge exits or these amazing processes and they have it all together and it’s like, I feel like a [00:36:15] big hot mess. And I, I don’t even wanna tell them how I [00:36:20] feel or what our struggles are. And then I came across our former pastor’s [00:36:25] profile, uh, and I knew his story of the, you know, falling from the [00:36:30] mountaintops and the, you know, road back to redemption.[00:36:35]

And for the first time I’m like, oh no, that’s, that’s what I need. Like, I need [00:36:40] someone who’s like, oh no, I’ve been there. Like I, I was on top of the wave. [00:36:45] I rode it and I fell crashing to the ground, and there’s light at the end of that [00:36:50] tunnel. So it’s the overcomer story that really impresses me of the person [00:36:55] who persevered, who didn’t give up, who figured it out when there didn’t seem to be a way, when odds [00:37:00] were against them.

And I think that’s what really impresses me the most and why I love who we [00:37:05] get to work with at Brand Builders Group is it’s the, uh, unassuming, [00:37:10] it’s the humble, it’s the person who’s doing this because there’s a calling on their life. They can’t not do it, [00:37:15] and it’s because they don’t want fame. It’s like, no, I wanna make a difference.

[00:37:20] Uh, I don’t wanna be famous. And I think, I think that is what impresses me most, is [00:37:25] like they’re changing lives because they can just help people. Not that famous [00:37:30] people don’t change lives. They most certainly do. But I think that’s what impresses me. And when we decided on our [00:37:35] executive life coach, it was a very decided decision of like, no, I need someone who [00:37:40] has been humbled, who fell and worked their way back up, who had to start over and [00:37:45] who had to refine their, you know, their graces and re get in touch [00:37:50] with.

And I was like, that’s what I needed. Right? And that’s what I needed. And there was a level of [00:37:55] comfort in knowing that this person. Wasn’t afraid to share that story. And all these [00:38:00] other executive bios, it was just accolade after accolade after accolade. And I felt [00:38:05] intimidated. And I was like, not them, not them.

Uh, I’m, I, I don’t even measure up. [00:38:10] Like I would be embarrassed to tell them what’s going on. And so I [00:38:15] think that’s, I think that’s a really important part of this idea of building real [00:38:20] credibility is that you’re really honest with the wins and the losses. Because I think [00:38:25] the losses attract a, a different grouping of people who go, yeah, me too.

Can you help me through [00:38:30] this?

Rory: Yeah. I’ve been inspired by your, your [00:38:35] encouragement for people to share the hard parts of their story and that that’s really like, [00:38:40] um, nobody ever shows up after your speech and says, I was so impressed by all your accolades, [00:38:45] but when you, when you say, this is what I struggled with.

AJ: Yeah.

Rory: People come out of the woodwork [00:38:50] and I think. In a world of technological [00:38:55] perfection in an artificial world, like the more [00:39:00] artificial the world becomes, the more our humanness is our [00:39:05] uniqueness. And I think that’s what you’re talking about. Yeah. And I think it’s just, you know, that [00:39:10] authenticity is, is a big, a big part.

AJ: Well, and I think credibility comes from knowing [00:39:15] like, yeah, I fail too. Like that doesn’t mean you give up. And I think that’s [00:39:20] where a lot of the authority comes from. Um, so one of the things that we wanna do right now, this is one of our [00:39:25] favorite segments of the show, is this is where we get to take a question from our community at [00:39:30] Brand Builders Group.

So those are members, uh, who are part of the community at Brand Builders Group, and they get to submit [00:39:35] questions. And our team picks a question that we’re gonna answer live for you [00:39:40] today. So, Rory. What’s the question?

Rory: Question comes from Olivia m Hi Olivia. M [00:39:45] Olivia says, I’m getting decent engagement online, but it’s not [00:39:50] translating into premium clients.

How do you become the obvious [00:39:55] choice instead of just another choice or creator that people [00:40:00] watch?

AJ: Hmm. How do you become the obvious

Rory: choice? Choice? [00:40:05] And she’s, she’s, she’s mentioning premium clients, which I think is an interesting part of [00:40:10] this question.

AJ: Yeah. So I guess defining what premium is, and to me that would just be your ideal [00:40:15] client, right?

The premium client is the person that you most want to work with, right? It’s [00:40:20] the center of the bullseye. Like, this is the person I’m going after. That’s how I interpret that.

Rory: Okay. Then [00:40:25] you answer that. ’cause I interpret it differently and I’ll answer it the other way.

AJ: Yeah. So I think when I, when you’re attracting [00:40:30] leads and they’re not converting well, I think there’s a lot of.

Speculation into [00:40:35] what that really means. Yeah. It’s like are you growing your followers, but they’re not converting into calls? [00:40:40] And one of my questions to that would be, well, do you ask them to, like, do you have any calls to action? [00:40:45] Like if this is an online conversion conversation. I think where a lot of people miss the boat [00:40:50] is they forget to actually have a call to action.

Rory: Yeah.

AJ: Like we forget to tell people what we want [00:40:55] them to do. Right. And so if you have leads that are. Showing up in the ecosystem, [00:41:00] it’s are you actually directing them to do something?

Rory: Yeah.

AJ: Right. And so, because she’s

Rory: saying she gets [00:41:05] engagement, but she’s not necessarily saying she’s getting leads.

AJ: So I think that would be my first thing [00:41:10] is like, are you actually giving them a clear, decisive call to action?

Are you telling them what to [00:41:15] do next? Mm-hmm. We assume people know they don’t. We have to tell [00:41:20] people this is what you do next. Right? You request a free call with our team. You [00:41:25] follow us here, you subscribe here, you download this thing. Like you have to tell [00:41:30] them what to do. And it’s not one time. It’s all the time.

Rory: Yeah. And I would, [00:41:35] I would say that a big mistake that people make with their social strategy is they kind of go [00:41:40] from someone saw me to, I’m gonna sell them something. And there’s [00:41:45] all of these steps, a few steps in between, right? So first. First, there’s [00:41:50] engagement. Then they become a lead. You capture them, then there has to be [00:41:55] trust, then there is a transaction.

Right? So just because I saw your video [00:42:00] that went viral and it was 60 seconds doesn’t mean I’m gonna buy from you. It’s you gotta give them that [00:42:05] next step, that clear call to action. Now they’re a lead. Then I have to have some trust [00:42:10] accelerating experience, and then I have to have a process for them to actually become a [00:42:15] customer.

Mm-hmm. And if you’re just trying to go from engagement to premium client. That, that breakdown, and a [00:42:20] lot of people make that mistake right now.

AJ: So I would say it’s probably one of those two things. You’re getting [00:42:25] engagement, I’m assuming you’re talking about online, and there’s rather not a clear. Call to action, [00:42:30] or you’re missing one of those trust building conversion steps in between engagement and [00:42:35] customer.

Rory: And our call to action would be to you that if at any point you want to [00:42:40] talk to our team about how we might be able to coach you and encourage you to get to the next level with building [00:42:45] your personal brand. Driving more warm, more warm leads for your business, uh, accelerating your [00:42:50] impact. Go to free brand call.com/podcast, free brand [00:42:55] call.com/podcast and we’re just gonna wanna hear your story and see if we could be a [00:43:00] match to help you take the next step.

Uh, outside of that, keep coming back to the [00:43:05] podcast, wealthy and well known. We’re so honored to have you as part of the community. If you haven’t yet, [00:43:10] please go leave us. A rating or a review wherever you listen to the show and [00:43:15] share this episode with somebody who you think would be encouraged by it, and we’ll [00:43:20] catch you next time on Wealthy and Well [00:43:25] [00:43:30] [00:43:35] Known.

WWK Ep 007: Scaling Your Business Without Losing Your Life

Rory (00:00)
How do you keep growing your business without your life becoming completely chaotic, stressful, and overwhelming? That is the theme of the show today on Wealthy and Well-Known. This is the podcast that is meant to help you build your personal brand so that you can grow your influence, your impact, and your income. As always, I’m joined by my co-founder, co-author, best friend, beautiful wife, AJ Vaden. Welcome to the show.

AJ (00:26)
Welcome to the show. So glad I’m here.

Rory (00:28)
Well, you’re on the hot seat today because we’re talking about scaling a business. You are the CEO of Brand Builders Group. You’re the also the CEO of Mission Driven Press, Nashville Creative Spaces. So we run three different businesses. You manage three P &Ls. We bought a building last year, remodeled the building. We are on this very day moving into a house that we have been building for two years. We’ve lived in three rental homes over the course of that time. We’ve got two kids that are

homeschooled. But we got a lot going on and by we I mostly mean you and I you are the one who’s managing most of that. ⁓ And so we want to talk about how do you increase revenue while keeping your hours flat or even reducing them? And I want to start with that question. I want you to share what your work schedule is and how it is evolved in terms of hours per week you worked when we started in our first business.

AJ (00:59)
Not by me.

Rory (01:27)
versus how many hours per week do you officially work on like work related business stuff now.

AJ (01:35)
Yeah, you know, wow, there’s there’s so much in that introduction. I I think it’s really important to start with just a high level reflection of I most certainly do not have this figured out, ⁓ nor do you. Right. And this is not a conversation today of let me tell you all the things we’ve learned and how you can do it, too. This is a journey.

And there have been some really good lessons we’ve learned and we’ve implemented. There are some that I am most certainly still learning and adjusting. So I just want to preface that this is a journey for all of us. And I think where I would love to see this conversation go today is not about how do you grow revenue and you shorten your hours. I think that’s, in my opinion, the wrong way to look at this.

And instead of going like, what’s the best and highest use of my time in each season of life and what can come out of that. And I think that’s been a difference of viewpoints of why my schedule was what it is and what it is today. And if your main goal and your main focus is just to grow revenue, to scale your business, to grow revenues and increase profits,

then I think you do have the great temptation to overwork yourself because it’s at everything is subservient to the ambitious goals that you have. And I think that’s an unhealthy place to be. And I can only say that because that was me for a really, really, really, really long time.

Rory (03:09)
Tell us that story. Where did we start? How much were you working? What was that ambition like?

AJ (03:15)
I think it was just what you said. It was like what you hear from everyone around you and even what you tell yourself is, you you work harder, set bigger goals, work longer hours, you know, work till your eyes bleed, right? And there’s some of that in that hustle culture mentality is like, don’t get me wrong. We work hard. Like, and I have high work ethic expectations for our team. ⁓ I believe that there is value in hard work. I believe that hard work produces a character

in a person that is invaluable, ⁓ knowing how to work hard and do things right is absolutely a skill set that I believe in, invest in. And this is not saying like, don’t work hard. I work really hard with constraints. And I think the constraints are the part that are really important because if you don’t have constraints on how hard you work, then it becomes all about your own efforts. And you forget that nothing happens by yourself.

And I think when we live in this world of like, just put in more hours, just put in more hours, just work longer, ⁓ what we start to believe about ourselves is that we’re doing all of it. And you’re never the one doing all of it. This is no surprise that I am very big into my faith. And it’s like, I first and foremost realized in my previous life that I was trying to do it all on my own. Is I was all doing it through the lens of striving and proving, which was…

I’ll outwork everybody. I’ll prove to everyone that I am just as a hard worker. I’m just as successful. I’ll produce the most revenue. I’ll make the most money. But that was out of a striving and approving for approval of my peers, right? And it was a ⁓ culture in which it was like I took a lot of pride in having 60, 70, 80 hour work weeks. ⁓ But what doesn’t get talked about is how you have no friends. You have no life.

⁓ You have no time with the Lord. I had no time to have reflection. I had no time to work out. It was work, work, work, work, work, work, And yeah, did that produce a lot of revenue? Sure did. Did it also produce a lot of unhealthy habits and loneliness and no social life and a lot of regrets? Sure did. And so I think those are where the constraints.

are really important. And I think when a lot of people talk about, you just got to work harder, it’s just got to be longer hours, more time at the office. What we don’t talk about is at what cost, right? At what cost is striving for scale and revenue and profits actually going to cost you? And that is missing your kids’ soccer game. It’s missing birthday parties, weddings, anniversaries, baby showers. ⁓

Yo, it ain’t worth it. It’s not worth it.

Rory (05:58)
I think

one of the most defining characteristics between our first business and our second business was the hours we allowed ourselves to work. Our first business, we worked 14 hours a day, maybe not 14 hours a day, but we were working by 8 a.m. definitely till 6 p.m. A very normal day. sure 10 to 12 hours. And I remember the very beginning was six days a week.

AJ (06:19)
10 to 12 hours a day was a very

Rory (06:26)
For me, it was six days a week.

AJ (06:29)
Some of that is to be expected in a heavy startup season. It’s just like, yeah, you should expect to have no sleep when you have a new baby. There are seasons of, it’s going to be intense. You just can’t let those seasons become your life. I think that’s the thing. There are going to be those spurts and seasons of, it’s the end of year. I’m doing budgets. It’s intense. I’m working more hours right now than is normal for me.

Right? Just like if you’re in, if you’re a CPA, tax season is your harvest season, right? It’s going to be more intense, a new baby, all of the things. just, what’s important is not that you don’t do that. It’s that you don’t let it become your life.

Rory (07:10)
Right. And I think when we started Brand Builders Group, our second business, we said, we are going to stop at 5 p.m. and if we can’t achieve something between the hours of 8 and 5, then we’re going to trust that the Lord doesn’t want us to have that. And if he does want us to have it, he will fill in the gap and he will do the rest. And that to me is the most definitive difference

between our mindset and our attitude and the practicality of our schedule between our first and our second business.

AJ (07:43)
Yeah, and I wouldn’t say that it’s a hard stop at five every single day. Some days I end earlier than five, some days definitely linger after five. I think the hardship that happens that I think has to happen with every individual, doesn’t matter what your role is, is what are you doing it for? And I think that’s the most important conversation with scale. What are you doing it for? What are you scaling for? ⁓ I remember at an event that we had at Brand Builders Group a couple of years ago,

someone raised their hand and they were just like, I’m on the path to seven figures. Like, that’s my goal. And I just said, well, tell me why. Why do you want to hit seven figures? And it was like, I thought it was going to be like some profound answer. And he was like, I don’t know. like, I can’t answer your question until you can tell me why you want to hit seven figures. Like, what is it that going to do to you? And I think a lot of us, hit, or we set these ⁓ goals.

But we don’t even know why. And when we get really honest with ourselves, we go, maybe that was for the wrong reason. And I think that’s where it becomes unhealthy is when we set these huge, audacious goals for the wrong reasons. It’s not that you shouldn’t set huge goals. I set huge goals. It’s important. The reason is important. And I think that’s important ⁓ contextually of like, you gotta not set it by yourself.

And I think that’s another thing about scale is, you forcing it? Is your team on board with it? Is your family on board with it? Because those are family and team decisions. Those are not owner, founder, and individual decisions because you don’t scale by yourself. You don’t grow by yourself. That requires a team. It requires your family. It requires your spouse. It includes a unified commitment from everyone around you.

Otherwise, you’re just dragging everyone around with you and there’s bitterness and resentment and tension. And then that’s when stress and burnout comes is because you’re dragging everyone along with you on some goal that you’ve set that you didn’t include anyone else on. So as we’re talking about scale and growing without burnout, ⁓ I think that often happens because you didn’t do it as a team. You didn’t make this goal. You didn’t plan this goal as a family or a team.

depending if it’s a personal or professional goal, and all of a sudden you’re outpacing everyone because they’re like, we weren’t on board with this. And that’s where I think a lot of the stress and the burnout comes from. other thing I would say about the limit to the hours, here’s one of the things that I have learned about the limiting to the hours is something that you actually talked about.

Maybe in Take the Stairs, maybe in Procrastinate on Purpose. I don’t know. They’re blurring together at the moment. But it’s the law of Douglas MacArthur. Right? You want to tell everyone about the law of Douglas MacArthur?

Rory (10:27)
Yes, the law of Douglas MacArthur says the amount of busy work always expands to fill whatever amount of time you allow to be available.

AJ (10:35)
And I think that is why we put limits on our schedule. It was yes, because it was like, hey, Lord, we’re going to trust that if you want it done, it’ll be done. But that was also from recognizing we’ll always find work to do. There’s always an email to check. There’s always a project to catch up on. I will find work to do. Right. That is not the problem. I think for a lot of people, rest is the harder choice. Not doing anything and knowing that you’re still good enough resting.

I think for me, my addiction has always been work. I think we’re all addicted to something. Mine has always been work. It has been something I’ve had to control and temper. It’s something I’m very self-aware of. It’s a discipline for me to not work.

Rory (11:20)
It’s a very mature decision to reach the place where you say, am consciously, deliberately, intentionally okay with achieving less. If working less means I will have less, I’m okay with less. And that took both of us a long time to get to. ⁓

AJ (11:40)
still getting to. So I think it’s just really important to go, the hours you work do not necessarily mean more revenue or scale or more profits. More hours work does not necessarily equate to growth or scale. It just doesn’t.

Rory (11:54)
So tell me the difference between growth and scale because not everybody understands this. And if you don’t understand this, it literally can ruin your life.

AJ (12:01)
Yeah, growth, and this is how we define it, growth means that your expenses grow at the same intensity that revenue does, right? So revenues are growing, which is what everyone talks about, revenue, revenue, revenue. I know, I’ve never met anyone or heard anyone talk about their expenses, right? It’s like growth means that expenses are growing at the same intensity, the same rate as revenue, right? Everyone talks about how do you…

grow a seven figure business, have a six figure launch. I know I’m talking about how many expenses it took to get there. I think that’s important. Expenses and revenue grow at the same ⁓ rate. That is growth. Scale happens when revenue continues to grow, but expenses flatline, right? It’s that pivot point where you no longer need to keep spending, to keep adding, to keep growing. That’s the difference between growth and scale.

Rory (12:54)
Yeah, so that’s, I think that’s a really key distinction. So I have a question. Why do we scale? Why do you scale? Right? You’re presenting an important part of this conversation, which is to go, why? Are you even clear on why are you growing in the first place? Why are you going to make these sacrifices? Why are you going to work that hard? You know, in our case, why are we going to take

the financial risks of investing in people and products and, you know, now buildings and stuff. And so I don’t know that you and I have necessarily talked specifically about that. So, you know, we now have two kids and, you know, we’ve got scaling businesses. Why have you, we, but I’m really curious, like, genuinely, why have you chosen to scale?

AJ (13:42)
That’s

a great question. And I don’t know if it has been a choice per se. I don’t think that I’ve sat down and go, hey, I am intentionally choosing to grow. And I think that’s a decided difference between this business and our last business, which was very much a, will force this to happen. I will might this to happen. I will give it all my will, all my energy to make it happen. And a lot of that was driven from my own striving, my own proving.

And when we started this business, was different. Different in the sense of I felt like God gave us this business. And I can really say for the first time in my life that I’m doing my life’s work. And so I think there’s some of this where, yes, some days feel like work. Don’t hear what I’m not saying. Some days definitely feel like work. But for the most part, this doesn’t really feel like work to me. This is my ministry.

This is my life’s calling and my hope would be that for all of you who are listening that you get the privilege and the opportunity to do that. That you get the opportunity to go, this isn’t work. This is your ministry. This is your life’s calling that you’re doing something that you’re uniquely positioned to do and you get to grow it. You don’t have to grow it. You get to grow it. So I cannot tell you that I’ve sat down and I’m like,

This is how we’re gonna scale. This is how we’re gonna grow. My attitude for the last seven years has been, we’ll go as fast as we can, as slow as we have to. We’ll grow it as big as it can be without forcing it. And so a lot of it has been organic. A lot of it has been natural. And I think a lot of it has been the byproduct of really loving what we do, solving a need that was clearly present in the marketplace.

and getting really clear on who we serve. I think that the growth and scale has been a byproduct of those things, specifically the growth. The scale took more tweaking and some adjusting along the way. But I think a lot of it really is, it’s like when you’re doing the thing that you were meant to do and you’re doing it well, not that we can’t do things better, we can. I’ll be the first to say that. But when you’re doing the things that you’re meant to do and you do them well,

and you really try to serve people, even if it’s not perfect, but you’re trying. I have just always found things do grow things-

Rory (16:03)
Healthy things grow. ⁓ that is, I would underscore and say, another big difference between our first business and our second business was our first business felt more like we were serving a number on a page. We would have a budget season, we would lock in on a number, and all that mattered was like hitting that number. In this business, it’s more like we’re serving a person and there’s two groups of people that I think that we serve.

One is our customers and we go, what can we do that will help our customers succeed faster? And the other thing that I think about in terms of scale a lot is our team is how can we hire better people? How can we pay them more money? How can we create more career opportunity for people inside of our walls here? And out of that serving the people, the business has grown. And just for context, we got to eight figures with our second business in about half the time.

We got to eight figures in our first, our first,

AJ (16:58)
But I think that’s a natural byproduct and I don’t want to sit here and be like we did everything wrong in our first business. No. The reason that we’ve been able to grow faster in our second business is because of everything we learned the first go around.

Rory (17:10)
That’s right. And we built a reputation in that first.

AJ (17:14)
as a beginner entrepreneur would have been impossible for me to gain and learn, being able to sit in the boardrooms and be a part of financial audits. All my finance skills were learned through the mentorship and leadership ⁓ in our first business. So I’m so grateful for so much that I learned there that we have been able to apply here. But I think one of the things that you said something made me think about this is this quote from Craig Rochelle.

I think this is really important. It’s like he always says you can have control or you can have growth. You cannot have both. And that is something that I have been working on. It’s like if I want growth, then I cannot have control. And that, in my opinion, is where scale starts to happen. I think when you realize, ⁓ I can’t be a part of every meeting. I can’t be a part of every decision. I can’t oversee every finance. I can’t sign off on every expense.

I cannot do all the things at some point if you really want to scale or if you are scaling even if you didn’t want to it’s just happening. You have to realize, ⁓ you no longer get to have control. And I think for some people they can’t release it, which is why burnout happens. I think a lot of stress, a lot of overwhelm and a lot of burnout for entrepreneurs, founders, executives, ⁓ even frontline, you know, salespeople. It’s like,

The burnout happens when you cannot release control. And that, in my opinion, is where most businesses ⁓ actually become stagnant. That’s where they plateau, is because the owner and the founder cannot release control. They will not allow their leadership team to lead. They can’t allow other people to make big decisions because they’ve been the one doing it the whole time. And it’s not that they don’t trust their team. It’s like, it’s always been me.

This is a ⁓ habit you have to unlearn. It is a skill you have to unlearn. It is something that you have to release and to surrender. And those things are scary. And those things take time. And I don’t think it’s because you hired the wrong people or it’s like, no, like those are big, long habits that you now have to unwind. And a lot of that does happen, has to happen in order for scale to take place.

Rory (19:26)
I

think you make a good point there about if you go in order to scale, you have to become a different person. And one of the mindset shifts that has to happen is that shift between control and growth. Another mindset shift that must happen for someone to scale, I think, is you have to let go of perfection. And it’s connected to this issue of control, because you got to where you are by doing everything right and doing everything perfectly. But

you can’t do it all yourself and continue to grow. And so this is something we talk about in procrastinate on purpose, which is 80 % done right by someone else is always better than 100 % done perfectly accurate by you. Or not always, but almost always. And that that is the requirement in order to to scale is to go, I have to deliberately intentionally purposefully be willing to accept

less than perfect for a short window of time by somebody else to go, I could do this better than you, but I’m going to be okay with you doing it and it being imperfect for a short window so that you can learn how to do it. Because long term, if I do it myself, I create a prison of my own construction and I create a life sentence for myself to have to do it versus that little imperfection window is painful.

for a limited time, but then over the long term, you create people around who do things. And one of my favorite quotes from, it’s in our second book, Procrastinating on Purpose, but it’s not from me, it’s from a multiplier Troy that we interviewed. And he said, you reach a point when you start scaling, you realize my job is not to do, my job is to make sure it gets done. And if those switches don’t flipped, you’re never gonna scale.

AJ (21:13)
Yeah, I remember Troy and that conversation was like, if I’m doing something, something has gone terribly wrong. And that is, you know, I think one of the things that we get asked a lot of time, well, you know, how do you know when to hire? Like how, how do you know when is the right time to hire if you can’t be the one to do everything? And before we answer that, I think there are two life questions.

But you have to ask yourself and I actually heard this on an interview you did with Mike McCallewitz years ago and I’ve really held on to it. And here are the two life questions that any entrepreneur needs to ask themselves as they’re starting a business, ideally at the beginning before you start. But if not, you can ask them at any time. Number one, is this a business you’re growing to keep or to sell? Because those are two distinct distinctly different paths. And I think that’s really important.

Right? Is this a lifestyle business? Definitely. Or is this a business that you are growing to sell? That’s important. That’s the first question. The second is do you want employees? Yes or no?

And those are the two most important questions for you to get clear on as an entrepreneur, is are you growing this to keep it or to sell it? And do you want employees, yes or no?

Rory (22:23)
And if you’re

growing it to sell it, you probably are gonna have employees. So that one kind of comes together.

AJ (22:27)
Right. And I think those are two and neither are right or wrong. They just are. And it’s, whatever is right for you at the different stage of your life and your own personality and your own desires and wants. but I think those are really important questions to ask, and to yourself and to have clear answers before you pick a path. ⁓ otherwise things happen unintentionally by default. And I, again, that’s where I think people get stressed, overwhelmed and burned out is the reasons they started all of a sudden disappeared.

They started because they loved this. And the next thing you know, the only thing they do is file taxes and big paperwork. That’s not what they started. And it’s because they lost sight of, I doing this to grow it and sell it, or am I doing it because I love it and it’s a lifestyle? Do I want employees, yes or no? Those are ⁓ simple but not easy questions to ask. ⁓ But once you have the answers to those, ⁓ when are you ready to hire someone? Because if you are growing and scaling at some point,

You’re going to come to that place where you cannot do it on your own any longer. I don’t have a perfect answer. can only give you my answer.

Rory (23:31)
I’m curious to hear this because I have a clear answer too. I wonder how much these are aligned.

AJ (23:35)
We’ll see. We’ll see. You guys can rate how closely related were they. Here’s what I have found is the first thing that I have to do is I have to set up my own boundaries, my own parameters of what I’m allowed to say yes and no to. And this has been a lifelong journey to figure those out. Some of those are schedule boundaries. Some of those are people boundaries. Some of those are commitment boundaries. And I’ll give you examples of some of those like

I have a commitment that I need mom time with my boys before 5 p.m., two days a week. Right? So ⁓ I end work earlier on Fridays. I have a shorter Friday, and I get to pick my kids up from school on Tuesday. Those are boundaries and commitments that I have to have to be a healthy, happy CEO, and also to be a mom who does not suffer from guilt. If I don’t have those things, I have an unhappy family and I have an unhappy workforce. Neither are good.

Right? And I think the first thing is like a healthy leader makes a healthy team. An unhealthy leader makes an unhealthy team. Same goes for parenting. An unhealthy parent makes an unhealthy family. ⁓ So I just know on the weeks where I don’t get to do those things, I’m a torn individual. And it’s like, well, I can’t do anything good. And it’s because I didn’t stick to my boundaries and my commitments. In order for me to be present at work, I need time with my kids. For me to be present with my kids, I need time at work. I’m not trying to overlap the two.

So firm set boundaries, would be one clear example. Another clear example is I can’t be in eight hours of calls and meetings and the team expect me to do my job. I can’t, so I put boundaries on I’m allowed this many hours of calls and meetings per day. If it exceeds that, it has to be pushed.

Rory (25:16)
Is that different every day or is it the same number?

AJ (25:18)
I have different every day, depends on the day of the week. But I will tell you right now, some people get very annoyed of like, you’re telling me you can’t schedule a call with me for five weeks. And the answer is no, I could schedule a call with you before then, but that would be sacrificing the commitments and the boundaries that I’ve set for myself, my family and my team. So I could, but I’m not. That means you have to get really comfortable and really good at how to say no.

And that has been an art in and of itself of learning the art of saying no. Because a lot of us, that’s a real struggle and we squeeze it in. But then all we’re doing is we’re breaking our promises that we’ve already made to ourself, to our team, and to our family.

Rory (25:58)
mean, you’re always saying no. You’re either saying no to that person or you’re saying no to the commitments you made to somebody else. So it’s like, you can’t go through life not saying no. It’s just, what are you saying no to?

AJ (26:08)
As an individual,

I’m just talking to entrepreneurs, you have to set your boundaries. What are the commitments that you’re gonna make? For me, I start with what are my commitments to the Lord? What are the commitments to my family? What are the commitments to the team? That’s the order that I go, and I fit in with family. I have to work out. If I don’t have physical exertion three or four times a week, I’m a crazy person. I have chaos energy. I told Roy the other day, was like, I’m shadow from Sonic 3. If I do not,

have physical exertion three or four times a week. I am just like shadow running around that orb at the very end creating chaos. ⁓ I have to release it. It is for the health of everyone around me that that gets out at hot yoga, not on a phone call, right? So those are the things you have to know about yourself. And you have to put those self-care things in there for us. Like if I don’t do my Bible study in the morning, I’m a grouch. I need my time with the Lord to have a peaceful start to my day.

Those are the boundaries and commitments that it’s like, if I don’t do that, everyone else suffers in the wake of my uncommitment. That is the first and foremost. Set your commitments and your boundaries of like, what makes you a healthy, happy leader? That has to happen first. And so if it doesn’t build in the boundaries of those, then I know there’s too much work for me to do. And it’s like, it is a basic law of economic supply and demand.

When there is more demand on my time than I have supply, then I start looking at, ⁓ you know, I follow Rory’s focus funnel. Like I do. It’s like, okay, what needs to be eliminated? What needs to be delegated? What needs to be automated? What needs to just be procrastinated on or what needs my attention right now? I follow the focus funnel. Like I really do. And it’s like, when I realize can’t be eliminated, it has to be done and it has to be by me.

I’m going, I’m looking at the team around me and I’m going, who is this going to? Right? And if there is no one, I’m going, I’m going to start making a job description because someone has to do this. It can’t be me. But it really is, but it does start. And I think that’s the most important thing of going, don’t break your commitments to yourself.

Rory (28:11)
And that would be that’s would be my answer in terms of when do you hire someone? It is when there is work that must be done that you don’t have time to do it. That’s when you start making the job description. But here’s what most people do. Most people say I’ll hire someone when I can afford to hire them. And that’s it’s it’s never worked that way. It’s never been like

We’ve got extra money lying around, let’s go hire the person. You think, like everyone when they’re starting as an entrepreneur, they all think, ⁓ that person has a big team because they have a lot of money. And it’s the opposite. They have a lot of money because they have a team and they invest in the team and eventually the money comes. But in the beginning,

All you’re doing is shelling out money to people on your team. And that’s what’s scary. And that’s where the risk.

AJ (29:06)
And that is where the risk comes. I think that’s where being a healthy financial fiduciary of your business is a part of your job as founder, entrepreneur, CEO, whatever your role is. I think everyone has responsibility of being a financial fiduciary if you work for a company because if you’re not and other people aren’t, everyone’s job is at risk. Like it doesn’t matter what your role is in the company, your job is to be a financial fiduciary of that company because that’s how you get paid.

Right? Is the, you know, the success of the company. But like to that point, I think a lot of businesses fail ultimately because they just ran out of runway. They ran out of money. And so knowing when to spend the money, knowing when to hire is really important. And what we have always found, it’s like, as long as my time is freed up, I know I can produce more revenue. Right? I know that. I don’t always know if I, if I free up somebody else’s time, can they produce more revenue?

I don’t always know that, but I know if I can free up my time, more revenue is on the way. And I think that’s again, that’s a mentality that we have chosen as business owners of, you know, we’re always going, how do we help generate revenue? That isn’t an outsourced skill set. It doesn’t mean people don’t help us. They most certainly do. But at the end of the day, our job is to make sure the company has enough financial runway to continue to be in business. That’s responsibility you own as an entrepreneur.

Rory (30:28)
That’s a big mindset shift. I, know, generally when I think of like my favorite like productivity books, I genuinely would put Procrastinating Purpose as one of them. Another one that I would put on there is ⁓ Dan Martel’s book, Right? Buy Back Your Time. And one of the distinctions he makes so sharply in that book that I really agree with and seeing it in writing was like definitely, is he says, hire to take things off your plate.

Right? Don’t just hire like, I think we need a VP of marketing. It’s like, no, what you need is to hire someone to free up your time. So whatever is taking your personal time, that’s where you need to you need to hire.

AJ (31:09)
how every job description should start and then it just continually scales from there. It’s like as one thing gets off your plate and new things come on your plate, eventually those fall off your plate and that’s a new job. And then that process continues on and on and on and on and that’s eventually how a team. ⁓

Rory (31:25)
great example

of this last year was we hired a head of people. Yeah. And I like, do we is that a position that we need? And you were like, talking to me, you’re like, you have no idea how much time I’m spending on benefits and HR and internal meetings and agendas and planning our conferences and travel and KPIs. And I was like, Okay, wow, I did not realize that ⁓ is going, ⁓ I guess we do. So from my vantage point, it felt like

we were too young as a company to need that position. But from your vantage point, you’re like, I am buried in a list of stuff. And it was like, okay, let’s go like we got to go get the person and we got we got someone who’s awesome. And yeah, so that’s so that’s really good. What rapid fire round here real quick, and then we’ll get into community questions. We got a big community question. So what do you think are the mistakes that entrepreneurs make when they’re trying to scale?

What are like the biggest things that they mess up?

AJ (32:22)
that they try to scale. Yeah, like genuinely. And it’s not only not knowing why, it’s that they try to scale before they’re ready. I think that happens a lot. We want to get bigger before we have the right systems in place to support that. One of the biggest mistakes that I have just read about, seen, luckily never firsthand, but is, you know, the rise and fall of tech companies.

Rory (32:23)
without knowing why.

AJ (32:47)
And there’s lots of documentaries. But I find these really fascinating of they scaled before they had systems to support the scale. And if the infrastructure isn’t there, the growth will implode the company. let’s not forget that. It’s like it can be an exciting ride. And then one day, it all comes crashing down.

Rory (32:55)
Hmm.

One of the most impactful things that has happened to me over the last year was the story that you found for our book about Chick-fil-A. that with Truett Cathy, don’t know what chapter is that in our book, chapter seven or something. ⁓ By the way, you can go to freebrandaudiobook.com slash podcast and just download the book. But if you go to that chapter, I think it is monetization strategy where we talk about scale is the lesson where Truett said, if we focus on getting better,

AJ (33:18)
three week.

Rory (33:38)
our audience will demand that we get bigger. And that was like a really clarifying moment for me was to go, don’t focus on getting bigger, focus on getting better. And if you focus on get better, you’ll get bigger. And I think that sums up the difference between our two entrepreneurial journeys, our first company and second company in some ways. We’ve been really focused on getting better, better, better at Brand Builders Group and we’re getting bigger as a result of that.

AJ (34:06)
And I think that’s true for any business owner, any entrepreneur. It’s don’t outgrow your systems. Don’t outgrow your systems. You cannot scale without the necessary infrastructure in place to support it. And when you don’t have it there is when it becomes toxic and unhealthy. And ⁓ it all really does start to fall apart, starting with you, because now you’re working double time over time.

even with the support team, because you just didn’t have the infrastructure to support the amount of clients or team members that you brought on. We talk about this often at Brand Builders Group and we go, I don’t know why so many of us are talking about, you know, growing our social media audiences or all the things that we’re doing when most people, most people only need a few dozen extra clients, not thousands, not hundreds, just a couple of dozen. Most people, if they doubled their client load, they couldn’t even handle it.

Rory (34:53)
Mm.

AJ (35:00)
And yet we’re trying to figure out how to do all these magnificent things. And it’s like, just pick up the phone and call somebody, ask for referrals. And I think a lot of that is we forget there’s not a lot you need to actually have some healthy growth and healthy scale. You don’t have to double, triple, quadruple your business in order to experience monumental growth for a lot of us. ⁓ But I do think it’s really important. It’s like serving five clients is very different than serving 25 clients.

Serving 50 is different than serving 25, 100. And it’s like, you have to be able to support that infrastructure before the clients come, otherwise it implodes. And I think that’s why how to scale is the wrong question. Not just because you don’t know why, which you do need to know, is that you’re trying to scale at all in order, you’ve got to have the order correct and the proper systems, processes and people have to be in place before you actually start to scale.

Rory (35:55)
Okay, next question. How do you determine what to pay people when you’re hiring, especially when you’re starting out and you really don’t have a lot of revenue or money? Like, what is some of the compensation philosophy of like, how do you afford people before you can really afford them? And then like, how do you adjust that over time or give us a little bit about that?

AJ (36:13)
This is a whole episode. my gosh. What a what Pandora’s box.

Rory (36:17)
Let’s do it. Let’s do an episode. We’ll do a whole episode on this.

AJ (36:21)
I think we should do a whole, because I think that’s Pandora’s box. I think there’s so it’s that you can’t even answer that question properly. It’s like, is this a brand new position? ⁓ Or is this a position that already exists in the company? Right? Those are two very different plans. Are you a startup company? Are you established? Right? Is this person learning a new job? Are they coming with expertise and experience? Right? Are you hiring virtual? Or is it mandated to be in person? Do you have benefits or not?

Is there a bonus or a commission plan or not? This is an entire episode. here’s what I would say at a very high level. Often when you’re starting, you’re going to probably not pay someone exactly what they’re worth and they’re going to be coming on because they believe in the mission, they believe in the potential and that there’s an upside. So I would say a lot of people get hired on, at least this is how we’ve done it, is like there’s a lower base.

and there’s a higher pay for performance opportunity, whether it’s a bonus, a KPI bonus or a commission plan that allows you to hire someone with what you can’t afford in a base, but it gives them the potential to make more income by selling or delivering or performance of the company when you can’t afford the base that this person could have earned somewhere else, but you’re hiring someone, not just because of money. And I think that’s probably my big takeaway. It’s like,

If people only come to you because of the dollars on the page, they’ll leave you just as fast. It has to be more about the paycheck. has to be, I going to enjoy the work who I’m enjoying with? Is there certain freedoms? Like, can I work from home? Can I travel? Can I earn more? Is there bonus potential? Is there benefits? It has to be more about money. It can’t just be about the dollars on a page because they will leave you just as fast as they came.

On that note, that’ll be a good healthy transition to move into one of our favorite segments of the show, which is when we do a question from our community where we take a whole bunch of questions posed from our community. They pick which is their favorite one. And that question makes it to you here on the show. So today’s question is, how do I say no without burning a bridge?

Rory (38:35)
This is so good. Really important and relevant. I’ve struggled with saying no for a big, big part of my life. I always wanted to say yes. And it was really once we started building our family that was like, have to start saying no to some things. And it was a really big struggle with me. And here’s the game that I learned how to play that I think made a big difference for me personally, was I make a game of saying no.

and still being super duper nice. And that epiphany for me was to go I can say no and be nice. ⁓ We did a blog on this. I think I did a blog on my blog about this a while ago. I haven’t looked at it but it’s we made an acronym out of nice and I see I think the end is notice the person’s value. Right. So someone asked you to coffee and you’re like that’s so kind. I love what you’re doing. It’s ⁓ you know and then the I is indicate interest.

It’s like, man, if I had all the time in the world, I would love to come and sit down with you and learn more about what you’re doing, because it’s really, really important. And then the C is competing priorities. But that and so you just kind of articulate to them, you go, right now, I’m just in a I’m in a really tight season right now with my family, my business, we’re moving houses, we’re writing a book, right. And it’s just so it’s like, man, if I had all the time in the world, I would do this, I just have really competing priorities.

And then you kind of explain clearly that you’re not going to be able to do it. But you offer offer them alternatives. Yeah. And so you go, you know, I can’t meet with you in person. Here’s a podcast episode that I picked out that I think would be super helpful. Here’s an article I found. Here’s a book I would recommend. Here’s someone I, you know, I think you should follow or, you know, here’s a quick bit of advice and encouragement. So that’s what this the E is, is encouragement. So you kind of encourage them.

in their journey. that’s just sort of the game. And you just have to do this. And it does kill me. It’s like I get invites to like come speak at things or meet with people. And it’s like if time like in eternity, like when eternity comes around, it’s like, yeah, I love that. You know, I’m so flattered. But if I’m saying yes to them, I’m saying no to you. I’m saying no to the. That’s the short answer.

AJ (40:50)
You just tell them my wife said no.

I think that’s really good. it’s like, mine is similar. It’s like, I don’t have a fancy acronym like you do. ⁓ My very succinct kind of like what I heard you say and what my philosophy is always focus on what you can do, not what you can’t do. It’s very simple. it’s like, doesn’t matter what the request is. I try to focus on what I can do, not what I can’t do.

Rory (41:09)
Mmm.

AJ (41:17)
So I always lead with what I can do while also making it clear what I can’t do. But I lead with what I can do. ⁓ Like I’ll give you ⁓ one quick snippet. Like here recently I got asked to do a book endorsement. And it’s someone who I really love. And I really love the book. And it was right after our book launch in the middle of our budget season in the middle of ⁓ moving a house. And it’s like they had a very short turnaround, 60 days. And I just, won’t write an endorsement if I can’t read the book.

Right. And I was like, ⁓ I want to say yes to this. And I can’t. I cannot. Like that is an overcommitment of epic proportion. And so when I got asked, I responded with, hey, what I would love to do is to do a live story promoting your book on launch week. I do not have capacity or time because of all these reasons to do a quality endorsement. However, I can put time on my calendar right now for your launch week.

I would love to go live and promote your book for you. And I did. And I did go live on their launch week and did a huge endorsement and got live and did a whole thing about their book launch. But I could not do the endorsement. I couldn’t do it. And so it’s just focusing on what you can do while also being really clear on what you can’t do. But lead with what you can, not what you can’t.

Rory (42:33)
So good. Well, there you have it, friends. Hopefully some advice, encouragement, insights, most of all, just lessons and experience shares from us struggling through this. As AJ mentioned, we did not have this figured out. ⁓ We have come a long way from where we’ve started and we’ve made some improvements from mistakes. So we hope it’s an encouragement to you. If there’s somebody that you think of when you’re listening to this episode who’s struggling with some of this, please feel free to share this. We would love for you to just find one person

that you send this episode to and keep coming back here so that we can keep you encouraged on your journey. We’re so grateful for you. We’ll catch you next time on Wealthy and Well-Known.

Ep WWK 006: You Are Your Niche: How to Turn Life Lessons into Leads

AJ: [00:00:00] How many new people and how many of the same people do you come in contact with on a regular recurring basis that you’ve never introduced yourself to?

Rory: And when you say introduce yourself, part of how you would introduce yourself is to tell your story.

AJ: If my story makes sense to everyone, but sells to no one, how niche should I really be in order to convert? Welcome to the Wealthy and Well-Known podcast, where we teach you how to build a true personal brand to help you scale your impact, your income, and your reputation. Today I am joined by my co-host and husband, Roy Vaden, and we’re going to be talking about the power of niche [00:01:00] storytelling, but the question is how niche, right back to the opening.

It’s like if it makes sense but it doesn’t convert, then how niche should we really be? So that’s my first question to you, Rory, is how niche should we niche down?

Rory: Yes. Okay. So those to me are different questions, which is like, what story should I tell to convert versus how niche should I niche down? But I think.
Where we should start the conversation is what is with the statement that is printed right on the front cover of our book. If you take off the flap, and if you’ve never seen this, it’s a, it’s an Easter egg. You gotta take off the flap, the jacket of the book, and right on the front cover it says, you are most powerfully positioned to serve the person you once were.

And to me, that is where this conversation starts because what I’ve become. More convicted on as time goes on is [00:02:00] that your story defines your niche. You don’t choose a niche and then try to figure out what story to tell. That’s good. You tell your story and your story defines your niche. And so I think lots of people have that switch
AJ: backwards.

Yeah.
Rory: And flip. They’re trying to go, what’s the perfect niche? Who’s my niche? And then like, okay, what are the stories I can tell to sell them? And go, no, it’s the opposite. You figure out what is your story, and your story will reveal. Your niche. So that’s where I start the conversation, but that really

AJ: defining your niche as your audience.

Like that’s the person.

Rory: Yes. Yes. I mean, again, another thing we say in the Wealthy Well-known book, you don’t start with why. You start with who, right? The moment you become clear on who you’re trying to serve, every other downstream decision becomes clear. Where should I advertise? What should I say? What should I sell?

How much should it cost? Like all, all of the [00:03:00] things become clear. When you’re clear on who. And so then you go, okay, well then who is my who? Well, I’m most powerfully positioned to serve the person I once was. So I think. When we think about,

AJ: let’s pause right there, because I think for, for us, that’s a really common idea, concept theme, right?

We’ve been working on that the last seven years. We know very intimately what that means, but for someone who’s listening who’s like, serve the person, I once was like, what does that mean? How do you determine the person you once were? So I think it would be like, if we’re saying, Hey. This whole idea of niche down is really about a who?

It’s about an audience. I think it would be worthwhile to go. How do you determine who you once were? Like how do you define that?

Rory: Yes. So a great a, if you want to tell a story that sells. You have to tell a story about someone overcoming a problem and achieving a result, [00:04:00] right? That’s what a story is. It’s somebody wants a result, they’re blocked by something, and the story is the description of their journey passed those obstacles to achieve that result.

That’s what storytelling is. It’s that it’s that simple. So. If you want to tell any story that sells, it’s gotta be what Obstacle did. Did. The person overcome. What challenge did they conquer? What setback did they survive? What problem did they push past? Right? That is the story as we teach in our world class presentation, craft curriculum.

The story is the struggle. The struggle is the story. The story is not about where they start. It’s not about where they end up. It is the journey, the the two steps forward and one step back. So. Anytime we’re talking about storytelling and selling in the same conversation, we have to be [00:05:00] clarifying what problem is being solved.

Mm-hmm. So to figure out who am I most powerfully positioned to serve? If we’re telling your story, then the conversation is, what challenges have you conquered? What obstacles have you overcome? What tragedies have you triumphed over? What setbacks have you survived?

AJ: Sounds like you’ve said this before,

Rory: I’ve said it before a lot, and I will, and, and, and every time I talk about it, I get a little sharper, I think, a little clearer on exactly what we mean.

I think there’s a lot of people who are like, yeah, if you wanna sell more, tell stories, but they don’t teach you how, how, what? Mm-hmm. What is a good story? What does what, what does that mean to tell a story? And I think we’re going, okay, your story is about what problems is you’ll come. Yeah.

AJ: I think that one of the things that’s really important, and you know, some of this to help everyone kind of articulate, is like if as you go through your own journey listening to this conversation today is, uh, the who [00:06:00] really does emerge out of.

What are the obstacles you’ve overcome? Right? What are the lessons that you’ve learned? Um, what are, you know, all the setbacks that you’ve made it through. And I think that what’s important is to go, okay, well, you gotta kind of go back and it’s like, and decide is, is your audience a person that you were a year ago, five years ago, 10 years ago, or 20 years ago?

Because there’s an evolution of serve the person you once were. Right. Was it the person I was when I was single, or is it the person was when I felt invisible or, so how do you discern that? Like, because all of us kind of have a history of past versions of ourselves.

Rory: Yes. So

AJ: this would be a great question that we’ve really never, we’ve never talked about about it.

I’ve never asked this about it. Yes. Yeah. Because you’ve been a series of different people over the course of your life. How do you know which one?

Rory: So for the context of this conversation, I think we’re talking about what problem Yeah. Are they paying us to solve? So when [00:07:00] you talk about storytelling and selling, it becomes very clear what stories you should tell because they’re the stories related to the things you’re selling.

Mm-hmm. Right? So in our case at Brand Builders Group, it’s like people aren’t. Paying us for me to tell them the story of how I lost 45 pounds, even though that’s a, that’s a journey that I’ve been on. Mm-hmm. Right. That’s not why people are paying us. I could tell that story anecdotally here and there to, to create connection or y you know, as a part of a presentation, but that’s not the story.

That’s not the person that I’m serving. Mm-hmm. ’cause that’s not our business. So I think there’s a difference in understanding. Yeah. Our whole life is a series of stories. Um, which stories sell though are the ones that are connected to what you offer, right? So if I’m a financial advisor, I need to be telling stories by, and by the way, these aren’t just of yourself, these are also of your clients, right?

Is to go, what were the struggles I had as money? What were the limiting beliefs that I had as money? What [00:08:00] were the mistakes that I made around money? What did I try to do that did not work? Why didn’t that work? Then? What did I finally do that did work? And then what was the result that happened for me in my life and or my clients?

So for us at Brand Builders Group, it’s the stories about me wanting to be a speaker and me wanting to become an author and us becoming entrepreneurs and us learning how to sell, and us learning how to lead because people are hiring us. To help them achieve those specific dreams. So

AJ: I think there’s something in this conversation that I think is very important to pause and to pull out.

’cause when we’re talking about niche down and we’re saying, Hey, we’re niching down on a person, I would like to change that word for the rest of today’s episode.

n/a: Mm.

AJ: We’re niching down on a buyer. This is one buyer. It’s not one person, it’s one buyer. Because when you think about niching down and how do you actually tell a story that converts in a crowded market, right?

This isn’t [00:09:00] about right to what you said. It’s like, well, I was someone who was overweight and I overcame that. Right? But that has nothing to do with what you’re selling and what they’re buying. So this is really about how do you niche down to a single buyer.

n/a: Mm-hmm.

AJ: Which means that you’ve gotta be clear on your product, your business model.

The person which makes the buyer.

Rory: Absolutely. And so I think

AJ: that’s an important distinction of what we’re talking about today, is how do you tell stories that actually stand out in a crowded market? But this is a marketplace conversation of how do you tell stories that convert by niching down on a specific buyer, not just a person.

Rory: Yes. That’s great. And I think if people feel like if, if someone is listening to this and they’re saying, I’ve been telling stories and they’re not converting. Then I would say there’s really kind of only one of two things. One is you’re, you’re not telling the story effectively, right? You don’t have the elements of story in place, which we could talk about, but more often it might be because you’re [00:10:00] selling something you shouldn’t be selling.

You’re trying to sell something that you have no personal connection to, you have no inherent passion about because you are talking about a journey that you’ve never been on. You’ve never guided somebody on, and that’s gonna be hard to tell a story. It’s hard to tell a story that you haven’t lived.

AJ: Well, could you also though be telling the right story, but to the wrong audience?

Rory: Sure. Yeah. Right. Possible. But I think that’s,

AJ: I mean, I think that’s a part of it too. It’s like when a story lands, then you know it was the right story at the right time with the right people. But often if the story isn’t landing, I don’t think it’s necessarily always the fact that you didn’t live the story.

It’s like, are you just telling the right story to the wrong audience?

Rory: Sure. I think that’s possible. I, I think what’s I, what’s interesting about the, the world of social media that we live in is it’s almost like I, I almost don’t have to think about [00:11:00] the audience necessarily. I just need to tell the truest version of my story in a way that illustrates what problem I overcome because the algorithm goes and it finds the people for that story, right?

Like, if, if you do it right, this is what we’re saying. It’s like you start with the story, your story becomes your niche, because at least in a, in a social media context, right? Um. YouTube Instagram.

AJ: Yeah. But what we gotta talk about offline too, and that doesn’t necessarily hit, those are D hit those different, those are different.

The same. Yeah. What you’re saying is

Rory: really true for offline, right? It’s like if I’m in front of a group of nurses talking about how I overcame, you know, my fear of public speaking to, and here’s how to become speaking, it’s like that’s not gonna convert.

AJ: But it’s like you could even be a financial advisor talking about.

You know, your path to wealth building or retirement or whatever. But if you’re talking to a whole bunch of retirees who are in their late eighties, story’s not gonna hit, it’s not gonna land. [00:12:00] Right. They you, you’re not reaching the right audience.

Rory: Yeah.

AJ: So I think that’s a, it’s both making sure it’s the right story or the right

Rory: audience, and maybe that’s a distinction that is unique to the world we’re living in now to the world.

You and I started in business. We were predominantly in front of offline audiences, and so you had to really select the audience, which you still do today for an offline audience in an online world. It’s sort of like. So it’s like in an offline world, you do lead with the niche. Mm-hmm. You target the industries and the audiences that you’re going after.

You ask for referrals to a specific type of person. You advertise to a specific type of person. With content marketing, it’s like you tell your story and the clearer you tell your story, it’s like the audience for that story starts to show up. That’s, that’s kind of interesting.

AJ: Well, I think we could talk about both of those, but.

I still think that today, most of us, most of the people who are listening are still doing the predominant, [00:13:00] predominant amount of their business offline. Sure. Uh, that’s the vast majority of all businesses. Regardless of what the internet tells you, most people still buy and sell based on referral, word of mouth.

Repeat buyers. They’re not going to social media to find their financial advisor. They are asking close, trusted friends and family of other people that they respect and look up to. Who do you use? Who do you recommend? So in that regard, I do think that, you know, kind of to this point of niche storytelling, and before I ask this, it looks like you really wanna say something.

Yeah.

Rory: So, so, so I would, I would underscore that too, but I, I, as you’re talking, it’s occurring to me that. The same algorithm dynamic also occurs offline. Like one of the things you, you, you say, we had another episode where you were talking about share the hard parts of your story. Yeah. Share who you are is, even if you’re not my audience, if I tell our bible study my story, they may not be my [00:14:00] audience.

Then when they meet somebody, yeah. Oh, I met a guy who, who’s writing a book? You need to meet him. Or I met someone who wants to be a, become a coach, or, I met, I met a lawyer who, mm-hmm. Who, who wants to grow a podcast because I’ve told my story to the people You have, like your six foot rule, you should explain what your six foot rule is.

Um, if I tell my story offline. To people who are maybe the wrong audience in terms of they’re not the right buyer, but they’re people I have relationship with, then they become equipped to refer people to me because they know who I’m trying to meet.

AJ: Yeah, I think that’s really good. Um, one of the things I think is interesting ’cause I think like to that it’s like even if you’re telling this.

Offline story about what you do, who you help, how you help them. Right? And that’s a story I just want everyone to be clear. It’s like that’s a story. I think what’s one of the most interesting facts, this is a total side note, tangent mental, um, [00:15:00] squirrel that just happened. But I think it’s worth mentioning is that I meet people all the time, as do all of us, and most people cannot tell you what they do.

Mm-hmm. It’s amazing. It’s like they stumble and I’m like, do you not know what you do? Are you not clear to how articulate it or do you not think I’ll know what you do? Like it’s a very bizarre thing that people cannot tell you what you do,

Rory: stumble, fumble, blah, that. But that

AJ: is a story, right, of you being able to clearly articulate at the right time to the right person in the right moment.

What you do is actually how you get. Business.

Rory: Can you tell everyone what the six foot rule is? Your, your six foot rule?

AJ: Yeah. It’s very, very simple. Not sophisticated, but my six foot rule has to do with offline communication, uh, offline networking, selling, whatever you wanna call it, is that you have to be willing to tell anyone.

You come in contact with IE six feet, right? [00:16:00] Anyone who is within six feet of you, you have to be so convicted in what you do, that if anyone is within six foot of you, you would be willing to tell them what you did and you would be able to clearly communicate what it is. And, uh, some of the examples I give are the value of how many people that you’re in front of on a every week recurring moment, right?

Who you go to church with. The parents you meet when you’re dropping or picking your kids up from school. Uh, the people at the soccer field, people standing in line at Starbucks, right. The people that you are standing in line with, checking into a hotel or checking out the people at the airport, like we are constantly surrounded by other people that we do not talk to, right?

One of my favorite things to do right now is to just watch people at the airport. Every single person. No, shouldn’t say every single person. You’re a people watcher. You’re a people

Rory: watcher.

AJ: Totally, totally. People watching. Um, but what’s amazing to me, [00:17:00] and again, I can’t say everyone ’cause that’s not fair, but most people have their heads down looking at their phone.

You’re sitting next to

Rory: potentially

AJ: your next customer. You’re standing behind your best prospect. Uh, you’re getting your nails done next to your new best friend. It’s like you’re sitting, uh, you know. Next to the person at church who could change your life.

Rory: Humans, there’s humans everywhere. There’s, there’s humans

AJ: everywhere.

Uh, and it’s like we overlook the quantity and the quality of people who are right at our disposal. They are within arm’s reach. That’s why I say six feet. It is within an arm’s reach and we’re ignoring them. Just pause and think about that for a moment. How many new people and how many of the same people do you come in contact with on a regular recurring basis that you’ve never introduced yourself to?

Rory: And when you say introduce yourself, part of how you would introduce [00:18:00] yourself is to tell your story. A succinct key is, part of that is succinct way to illustrate why you do what you do. How you do what you do by simply telling how you got into doing what you do. Yeah. And that is like your. The fastest way to your next customer is through real life humans.

And there’s real, they’re there. There’s humans everywhere. They’re

AJ: everywhere. There’s what, 7 billion of us right there. We’re everywhere. Um, we just have to be willing to engage. We have to be willing to interact. We have to be willing to put our phones in our pocket, put it on airplane mode, put it away, make eye contact and introduce yourself.

And there’s a lot of power to that. You just never know. Like I was at, uh, a quick personal story. Uh, I was at a, uh, dinner party at some friends with you. You were there and I was, you know, I’m not a great networker. Side note, I’m awkward. I’m like, if I know one person in [00:19:00] the room, I’m a stage five clinger, I’m just gonna follow that person around and eat snacks.

That’s what I do. But I got separated from Rory, so I was on my own. I’m like, wait, I’m, I’m just like looking for him survival mode. I was in survival mode. I’m like, where’s the bathroom for the third time? What was interesting is like it was such a tight, it was such a tight situation. ’cause there was a lot of us, uh, at this dinner house, this dinner party, and there was a guest of honor.

And it was Francis Chan and I happened to follow Francis Chan and I really love his teachings and I think he’s an amazing human being. And I saw him earlier in the night and like kind of avoided eye contact and moved on and I got, I’m an awkward networker, but then I got stuck shimming my way in between him and another person and he made eye contact and I’m like, six foot rule.

I, it’s my own rule. I have to do it. So I paused and I suck, put my hand out and I introduced myself and uh, and he was like, so aj tell me what do you do? And I was like, here’s my chance. Right? And it’s like, but it was amazing. And I [00:20:00] was like, I, well I actually, I help entrepreneurs build and grow their personal brands.

And he goes, personal brands, like, what do you mean? And then I like went on and, ’cause I know he’s a speaker and author and do all the things. And he goes, so you help people like me. I was like, I help people exactly like you. In fact, I, we’ve probably worked with some of the people, you know, and I made a list of clients and he goes, what would you do for them?

Right? And it was like, I had the answers. Um, but that’s only because, you know, and you practice. But that’s the beauty, beauty of the six foot rule. It’s like real life, human interactions, having real discussion about what you really love doing. And that is the power of just. Actually knowing your story and being prepared in the moment.

Right. And I think those are the really important parts that we can’t overlook and just talk about the algorithm. Not saying that’s not important, but for most of us, most of us, most of us are still gonna get our next client offline, not by an online conversion. [00:21:00] You

Rory: think we should talk about the elevator pitch formula?

AJ: Absolutely.

Rory: For people. Okay. So if you are someone who stumbles and fumbles to the question, what do you do? And we’ve all been there, right? It’s like, what do you do? Uh, I’m a,

AJ: well, here’s what most people say, um, is they give their title. Yeah. They go, I’m a financial advisor. I’m an attorney, I’m a real estate agent.

I’m a teacher. I, I’m a CPA. It’s like they tell you their title. That tells me nothing. Like I could meet 36 people who all say the exact same thing. That does not differentiate you in a crowded market. It does not, let me tell you right now.

n/a: Mm-hmm. Right?

AJ: What do you do? I’m a content creator. Welcome to the other 7 billion people on Earth.

Right? It’s like that does not differentiate you. Like when you talk about storytelling, it means you do something unique, right? For a specific buyer, right? That’s that niche buyer. Because you’re most well positioned to serve that person. So I just think that’s contextually [00:22:00] important. Um, now you can tell the rest of it.

Rory: Yep. So, so here’s the elevator pitch formula. If you struggle with this, all you have to say, you just, it’s this sentence. I help who to, what I help, who to what? Remember, you don’t start with why. You start with who. So who do you help? What type of people do you help? You start with who. When you talk about the who you serve, you’re sending out a crystal clear signal.

That people pay attention to and they’ll immediately self-select like, oh, I’m your who, or I’m not your who, but I know who your, who is. I know some people who are like the who you serve. And so the who is really key, not your title. Right. I help who and then to what? Or specifically to achieve what And if you were gonna make this a story.

Okay. The way to make it a story would be to say, I help who to [00:23:00] overcome. Something to achieve something else. Now all of a sudden you have a story. Because to have a story, you gotta have character. You gotta have conflict in order to have a a character, that’s your who. And in order to have conflict, you have to have a goal and you have to have a roadblock.

Right. So when you say, I help who to overcome blank, to achieve what? I just told a story.

AJ: Can you give us an example In real life.

Rory: So, uh, I mean, I’ll, I can, I’ll, I’ll start with us and then we can talk about different examples, right? So we now the who that you share, you should customize to whatever audience you’re in front of.

So if I were in front of a room full of speakers, I wouldn’t sell, I wouldn’t say we help entrepreneurs. I

AJ: help speakers, I

Rory: would say I help speakers, we help speakers.

AJ: I knew that answer. Top quiz, I knew that one.

Rory: Same if it was authors. Right? Now, if it’s a more general audience, I might [00:24:00] sell. Say we help entrepreneurs or we might, we help experts.

If it was room full of doctors, I would say we help doctors. Um, assuming that we do right? So. Our general term, and this is to your earlier question about like how niche is niche down, A lot of that language depends on who you’re in front of. Mm-hmm. Right? So we generally say mission-driven messengers.

That’s our general category. If you break that down into a little more specific, there’s, there’s three groups we serve. Experts are at the center, experts, entrepreneurs are in our second ring, and uh, executives are in our third ring. But even inside of experts, right. We would narrow down to go speakers.

Authors, coaches, consultants. Inside of entrepreneurs, we would say doctors, lawyers, accountants, whatever. So you tailor the language a bit, but at the, at the, the bullseye, which is also both the most broad term and the most narrow term is mission-driven messenger. It’s, it, it’s, it, it captures the whole [00:25:00] audience.

So I help who to what

AJ: I, you, you still didn’t give us the whole. Story.

Rory: Oh, to build and monetize their personal brand. Now, I would also tailor the what, right? So if, if it were a general audience, it’s like we help entrepreneurs to build and monetize their personal brand. But if it was authors, I could say, uh, we help aspiring writers to become bestselling authors.

So I’m tailoring this language. We help lawyers to build their personal brand so they can drive more leads for their practice. So it’s the same structural narrative, which is a story, right? Storytelling is a structure, um, and you have to have a who, you have to have something they want and then you have to have something blocking them or to be a full story.

But the elevator pitch formula. The simplest version to just help people get past the stumbling and fumbling is I help who to what

AJ: Now. This is the interactive part of today’s show, and if you’re listening, uh, here is my encouragement to you, knowing that most of us aren’t very good at this. This is where you [00:26:00] should pause.

You should literally pause the episode right now and take five minutes and make your own, right. Like you need to go, who do I serve and what do I do for them? Right? Like, as Rory mentioned, like mine, I said earlier, I help who I most like, who I’m best and most well positioned, er well positioned to serve our entrepreneurs, right?

Like that’s my niche within our company’s niche. I help entrepreneurs build and grow their personal brand. Right? So you should pause for just a minute and go, who do you help? How do you help them? I help who to what? This would be an amazing. Value for you to do right now. This could change the trajectory of your business by simply knowing how to introduce yourself in the right rooms.

Um, so this is an amazing thing that you could do for yourself right now.

Rory: And I would encourage you to answer that question in the comments, like actually type it out. I help who to what? You might get business from the humans interacting on the comments. [00:27:00] Right? But like we have to get comfortable saying that.

I help absolutely. Lead to what. Not your job title. It’s not I Am a Blank. That’s

AJ: right.

Rory: It’s a I help who to what.

AJ: It’s not about you, it’s about who you serve. So it’s not about what you are or what title it’s about who you serve and how you serve them.

Rory: What type of story shortens the sales cycle. You are a great salesperson.

You’ve sold lots of stuff. What do you think are the key elements of stories that. Reduce the time it takes people to make a decision.

AJ: I don’t think my answer would be a story.

Rory: Interesting.

AJ: Yeah. Twist. There’s a twist. A blood twist. There’s a blood twist in the conversation. Uh, I actually think the most powerful thing that shortens the sales cycle is telling people that this sales cycle is going to be short.

Rory: Interesting.

AJ: Uh, I think. In my experience, and this is just me personally, [00:28:00] I have not used storytelling, uh, as a tactic to help shorten the sales cycle at all. What I believe is the most powerful thing that you can do to help shorten the sales cycle is to start every sales conversation and end every sales conversation the exact same way.

And that’s a very simple, uh, what we call, uh, creating a buying atmosphere. It is to start every sales conversation with Hey Rory. Uh, we’re gonna cover a lot of information today and, uh, at the very end, we’re gonna get to a place where I’ve covered everything that we do, and you are going to know if this is a fit for you.

And, and when we get to that point, I’m gonna just simply ask you if you wanna move forward or not. And I just wanna tell you upfront, either way is completely fine with me. I will be completely good with a yes. I’ll be a completely good with a no. I know that we’re not for everyone, and not everyone is for us.

All I ask is that at the very end you give me a clear yes or a clear no. Is that fair? [00:29:00]

Rory: Yeah, absolutely.

AJ: And then I’d have the conversation, ask a bunch of questions. I talk about what we do and at the very end I’ll go, Hey, Rory. Uh, we’re wrapping up the end of our time here, and I know that we discussed this at the very beginning, and as we’re wrapping up here, I just wanna go back to what we said at the very beginning.

What I know about our business is that at this point you should know if this is a fit for you. And so we’re there.

Rory: So if you don’t know, then it’s not a fit.

AJ: And if you don’t know, it’s not a fit. Like that has been the fastest thing that shortens the sales cycle, is giving people permission to tell you no.

Um, what I have found is that most people are conflict avoidant. They don’t want to tell you no, we don’t like to hear no. As people. And most people don’t like to tell you no because they know that they don’t like to be told no, so they don’t, you know what they say instead, maybe. Let me think about it.

Send me information. Let me talk to my spouse or my partner. Uh, let me sit on [00:30:00] this. Uh, you know, let’s schedule a follow up. No, I don’t wanna do any of that. Uh, if this is for you, it is for you. And if it’s not, it’s not. Your yes is B yes. Let your nos be No, I’m good either way. And, but that’s, that’s the key though.

You have to be good either way. It has to be light and pressure free. And if somebody genuinely has to go check off on something, that’s fine. But how do you know if it’s a genuine, you have a very short follow-up turnaround that they are willing to book and schedule with you in the moment, right? If they’re like, you know what, let’s just uh, follow up with me in a few weeks.

Nope, this isn’t for you. And I know because you, you don’t know. Right? And I think that’s a lot of having the confidence and conviction of you’re not for everyone, you’re not supposed to be, and you don’t wanna work with a whole bunch of people who don’t wanna work with you. So be specific and be clear on who you wanna work with and make it easy to say yes.

By making it easy to say no, the easier you make it to say no, the easier it [00:31:00] is for someone to say yes. In my experience, in my last 22 years of selling, that has been the number one thing that shortens a sales cycle.

Rory: Interesting. Yeah, that’s a great one. There’s no, there’s, there’s no doubt that that shortens the sales cycle.

And it is one of the things that I think people are so scared to do and the one of the keys I think was. You have to say that upfront at the top of the conversation. Yep. And then you call it back. Yep. If you bring it up at the end, it starts to feel like pressure. It’s, if you bring it up at the beginning, there’s no pressure because you’ve taken the pressure off through the whole Well, do you,

AJ: I think really what you’re doing is you’re letting people know, like you should know, like you’ll know like, oh yes, that’s what I’ve been looking for.

And if at the end you’re like, I don’t know, then rather you didn’t do a good job of asking questions or they’re genuinely not a fit. Don’t sell to people who are not a fit for what you do. That’s a disaster for both of you, because in three months they’re gonna have buyer’s remorse. Or in three days, right?

In [00:32:00] some cases, but also you’re also stuck serving a customer that you don’t wanna be serving, and they don’t want your, they don’t want your services. It’s not good. So don’t do that.

Rory: Yes. Coming back to answer my own question, um, yes.

AJ: Tell us the answer to your question. Well,

Rory: so no, I, I, that’s a great answer.

I mean, I, I think that is definitely one of the things that will speed up a sale for sure, in terms of what type of story will speed up a sale in, in my experience, it’s a story about one of your customers succeeding. I think what you said speeds up a sale. The other thing that speeds up a sale like magic is.

When they know or can relate with someone else who’s bot,

AJ: why didn’t you just tell me the answer? I could have said that. Well,

Rory: I know you could’ve there, there, but that was a really, really good answer. Just tell me the answer. That was a really good and true answer and that’s an answer that, that’s like a bonus answer that, uh, I think is super technical.

Yeah, but

AJ: I like another [00:33:00] way of saying what you’re saying is, is customer testimonials, case studies. That’s right. Yeah.

Rory: Customer. And that was, you know, there, there is. There is something magical in selling. The only thing that I have ever found in selling that is magic, that will speed things up, make people interested, who weren’t interested, go from slamming the door in your face to I’m Your best friend, is names of people that you’ve worked with.

Mm-hmm. It’s the, it’s the, it’s the, it’s the, it is the fairy dust of selling and it’s like you’re like. So when you can tell a result. Now if, if, you know in our world, right? It’s like this is the result we helped Ed Millet create, this is the result we, we helped, you know, John Maxwell create, this is the result we helped Eric Thomas create, or Amy Porterfield or Dr.

Gabrielle line or whatever, right? Um, it works really well, if you can tell. The story of a result you helped a client [00:34:00] create. Mm-hmm. And particularly if they know the person. Mm-hmm. If they recognize the person, that’s magic. Now, certain industries you can’t share names like, and financial,

AJ: it doesn’t recognize, could be just another doctor.

Another doctor. This was another, you know, more specifically another school that we work with, another doctor in your particular field. It doesn’t have to be an exact person’s name, it could be just someone. Again, this is all about. Having a relatability factor of like, can you really do for me what you do for other people?

And it’s this, I have helped people exactly like you. Yes. In your field, in your profession.

Rory: The more specific, the more terrific.

AJ: Yep.

Rory: Right. If they recognize the person’s name, that’s the most powerful. If they don’t, it just, you zoom at a level, it’s a person like you. Right. And that goes back to our elevator pitch formula.

You tailor it as narrow as you can without, you know, so that you, you, they, you want them to self-select in.

AJ: Most think it’s more powerful that the person is more like them, not just a name they recognize personally. I think sometimes if you share names that they [00:35:00] recognize and they’re like, wow, they’re so further ahead than me.

Then they start doing a comparison game. They can. They can, yeah. And they cannot relate. They’re like, wow, you really, you can’t help someone like me,

Rory: right. I’m too beginner. I’m not like that person. Or I’m

AJ: too advanced. Right. Or whatever it is. Or advanced. Yeah. So I actually think it’s most powerful to go.

Who are the clients that I have that fit your exact profile? Because at the end of the day, the point of doing this is to help them know that you can help them. And so the best way you can do that is to give the stories of people who are as close to them as humanly possible because they’re just looking for social proof of, can you do for me what you’ve done for someone else who is like me?

Totally. I think that’s almost even more important.

Rory: And here’s our secret storytelling formula that we teach. There’s four elements of a story, a scene, a struggle, a summit, and a lesson, right? And the scene is all the people who, what, when, and where. The struggle is, what do they want, and, and, and what are they struggling with?

Then the, the summit is what [00:36:00] happened, and then the lesson is what you learned. When you apply that to selling, you set the scene. I help who, right? I was working with a doctor who was this and this, and this and this. Mm-hmm. They wanted to achieve this summit. They were struggling with these issues. We put them through our process to help them achieve this result.

And that is, that is the result that we create again and again for people who are just like you. Mm-hmm. Right? Scene struggle, summit lesson. And that’s what makes, what makes a great story. You could call it story selling, right? Story selling. The stories of clients that you’ve worked with that are like the person that you’re talking to.

What problem did you help ’em overcome and what result did you help ’em achieve?

AJ: Yeah, so you can tell stories or you can just tell people that they’re gonna know yes or no. Uh, either way,

Rory: if you, if you do both of those things in the same convers conversation, that that will be

AJ: [00:37:00] different strokes for different folks.

They both work. Yep.

Rory: And if you don’t have any cluster testimonials, cluster. Clusters cluster.

AJ: It’s a cluster. It’s a cluster. It’s a cluster of customers. When

Rory: people buy from you that shouldn’t have bought from you. We call those clusters. It’s the wrong people bought. Um, but what, uh, I lost my train of thought.

Cluster is so good. That’s so good. Um, but

AJ: time for our favorite segment.

Rory: Yeah. Onto the community. Question vaden. Okay. So. Here is one of our favorite segments. So every week our brand builders group members, right? So the people who are members in our programs are the people that we help. They vote on the most pressing question that they want for us to break down, and the one with the most up votes becomes our, our featured community question on the podcast.

So let’s dive into the question that our BBG members chose for this episode. Question I serve founders and operators. Can I keep one story for both? Oh, this is [00:38:00] great. This is your people? Mm-hmm. Entrepreneurs. I serve founders and operators. So I’ll clarify. I I’m gonna, I think a founder is someone who started a business.

An operator is basically someone who is running the business on behalf of the founder. Um, can I keep one story for both? All you.

AJ: Yeah. I’m giggling inside because I’m like, most founders I know are still operators.

Rory: Yeah.

AJ: This is the same person. Um, but no, to answer, uh, the question, uh, in the event that you find someone where the founder has stepped out of the day to day and you’re, or sold the business maybe, or sold the business or you know, whatever, they have an operator.

Uh, so here’s what I would say. This really does go back to a conversation that we had. Ha haphazardly at the beginning of this episode, which is. You have to think about your core target audience as you have a bullseye, that’s your primary. Then you have the second ring of the bullseye, which is what we call [00:39:00] your secondary audience.

And then you have the third ring of the bullseye, uh, which is your tertiary audience. Now, the person at the bullseye is that person that you are best and most well positioned to serve, right? The person you’re most powerfully positioned to serve because they are the most like you. Right? So let’s just say founders were your bullseye.

Then you’re naturally gonna have this second ring of operators because that’s the next rung down or after your founder. So it’s not that the story doesn’t apply to both, right. It just applies differently. Right. And I think that’s where we really have to talk about the same story can apply to both with some variations.

And I don’t think you have to change your stories. You don’t change your points. You don’t, you don’t change everything about your personal brand because you’re catching the outer rung. You catch the outer rungs by as a byproduct of being super focused on who’s at the bullseye. And in this case, I’m just selecting the founder.[00:40:00]

The short answer is yes, you can have the same story for both. Uh, you are naturally going to hit that outer ring of people. As Rory mentioned earlier, at our bullseye experts. Then entrepreneurs, then executives, I do not change our stories. I do not change my stories. We do not change our content. To somehow now magically appeal to an entrepreneur or an executive.

We naturally appeal to them by being super clear, super specific, and going after experts. Why and how then do we naturally appeal to those outer rungs? Because those outer rungs are in the process of becoming closer to the bullseye. Right. Uh, they, they have expertise in their field, right? Just because you’re in an ex an executive doesn’t mean you’re not an expert in something.

Uh, just because you’re an expert doesn’t mean you’re not an entrepreneur in something. Uh, so it’s really focusing on what’s at the bullseye. And you naturally catch people as a [00:41:00] byproduct of being really focused without having to change anything that you share or do. You don’t need to change your messaging.

You catch them as a byproduct of being very specific.

Rory: Yeah. That’s so great. So I’m gonna round out my answer, um, to be a little bit more broad, uh, and go, this might perhaps be the, the, the most powerful secret of storytelling that we haven’t yet talked about on this episode.

AJ: Well, what are you waiting for?

Rory: And that is the best way to tell a great story, is to tell a story that is specific to the person you’re talking to. And the best way to know exactly what story to tell is to ask them their story first. This is the hack of all networking. It’s not to have the super perfect elevator pitch. It’s not to talk about all your customers.

It’s not to talk about yourself. It’s not to talk at all. It’s to shut up and ask people, tell me your story. Tell me about your business. Tell me about [00:42:00] what you do. Tell me about who you are. Tell me about your dreams. And as they tell you their story, they’re not only telling you their story. They are telling you exactly what type of story you need to say back to them in order to make a sale.

Yeah. So they’re, they are telling you exactly what they need to hear in order for them to relate to what you do. Mm-hmm. So this is why we say. Truly the greatest salespeople are not smooth talkers. They’re master question askers first.

AJ: Absolutely. So I couldn’t agree with that more. It’s like the sale is made in the power of the questions you ask.

Rory: So good. Um, alright. That’s all we got today for this episode of Wealthy Well Known. Hey, share this episode with someone who you think needs it and someone who has a great story and needs help telling it in a way that will create more conversions. If you haven’t yet, please leave us a rating and a comment, uh, on the [00:43:00] podcast, wherever you listen to it.

That helps people find us and make sure you keep coming back so that we can do our best. To help you become wealthy and well known.