Rory: [00:00:00] Sales to me is the ultimate level playing field. I didn’t grow up with a lot of money, [00:00:05] didn’t have Ivy League connections, and didn’t grow up with powerful relationships with [00:00:10] people who were high up in companies. But it was like sales is this thing that goes like, I don’t care if you got [00:00:15] your degree from Harvard, or if you dropped outta school. Can you knock on a [00:00:20] door? Can you overcome rejection? Yeah. Can you build a relationship? Can you add trust? Can you add [00:00:25] value? Can you follow up? Can you stay in touch? Do you have a good product? It’s like, I don’t care about your pedigree. I don’t care [00:00:30] about your, you know, connections. It’s like, it, it’s really you as a person. AJ: It’s the whole concept of your [00:00:35] reputation precedes you. And in this case, it better. Right.[00:00:40] [00:00:45] [00:00:50] Hey [00:00:55] y’all. Welcome to this episode of The Wealthy and Well-Known Podcast. [00:01:00] Uh, today we’re gonna be talking about an interesting topic, uh, something to do with [00:01:05] micro entrepreneurs, what a lot of people would maybe refer to as direct sales. [00:01:10] Uh, or, you know, a side hustle. But I think it’s a really important thing to start this [00:01:15] conversation with what is direct sales, because it’s really different than affiliate marketing, and it’s [00:01:20] really different from the old school MLM model. But I, this is what we would call [00:01:25] in today’s market, the micro entrepreneur or the micro influencer. And [00:01:30] so that’s where we wanna start today, is how does personal branding help you [00:01:35] indirect sales as a micro. Influencer, a micro entrepreneur, and, uh, [00:01:40] specifically what is direct sales, so we know exactly who we’re talking to.[00:01:45] Rory: This is a, this is a topic that’s near and dear to my heart. Uh, for those of you that don’t [00:01:50] know my story, I was raised in direct sales. My, my mama, my single [00:01:55] mama sold Mary Kay Cosmetics when I was a kid. And so I grew up going to those [00:02:00] meetings. Um, and then when I was in college, I went door to door for five years, five [00:02:05] summers, and was in a network marketing company. Was a recruiter, a top sales [00:02:10] person, and, um. I have sort of just grown up around the industry, and this is well [00:02:15] hold. I AJ: wanna pause really quickly because you aren’t just a, a recruiter. You are the [00:02:20] all time 150 year record holder of [00:02:25] recruiting, recruited the largest teams of a direct sales. [00:02:30] Marketing company. Thank you, babe. Rory: You’re, you’re, you’re making me blush honey. You’re making blush. Well, I think it’s a big AJ: deal. Like [00:02:35] they actually had you as a college student, travel around the country teaching other [00:02:40] student managers how to build organizations like you did. Like 150 [00:02:45] years is a long time to be the all time record holder for recruiting is no small feat. So let’s [00:02:50] not skim over that. Like you don’t have experience in the space. Rory: Well, thank [00:02:55] you. Yeah. I, I just, this is, it is, it’s an important, it’s, it’s near and dear to my heart and I [00:03:00] think in many ways. I think of direct sales as true sales, [00:03:05] real sales, where you are prospecting human to human [00:03:10] and like building relationships. It’s AJ: interesting though, but is direct steel sales still [00:03:15] happening that way today? Rory: No less of it. I mean, I, I think that’s what we’re gonna talk about is [00:03:20] go, you know, how’s it different? And I, I think that’s an interesting topic even to start is [00:03:25] what’s the difference between direct sales? Affiliate marketing, network [00:03:30] marketing, personal branding. Mm-hmm. You know, it’s, there’s a sort of a weird amalgamation [00:03:35] of all all of these things coming together AJ: and we’re seeing a lot of direct sales [00:03:40] companies transition. Two more of affiliate marketing [00:03:45] organizations. There’s been a lot of disruption, uh, in the industry the last few years as [00:03:50] a lot of traditional direct sales companies are no longer a direct sales [00:03:55] model and have moved to a. More affiliate marketing affiliate Rory: model. Yeah, I was, I was just, I was just [00:04:00] speaking at an event for, uh, direct selling news, direct selling university, and they were sharing a [00:04:05] lot of the data of what’s going on in the industry. There’s a, there is, there has been a lot of [00:04:10] consolidation in, in the industry. Um, part of what they were saying is like, the [00:04:15] headlines are dominated by some of those, but a, you know, in many ways the industry [00:04:20] still. Is what it has always been. And, but they were showing how, you know, some of the [00:04:25] companies, I, I’d say, you know, most famously, like Rodan Fields, um, [00:04:30] Beachbody, you know, which is now just body, they, they, they have kind of [00:04:35] adapted or adopted to an affiliate marketing model where, and I think the difference here for people who [00:04:40] are just listening is, is going. Direct sales is anything where you [00:04:45] have a, a sales person selling a, a product direct to consumers. [00:04:50] It’s like the individual person is conducting that [00:04:55] transaction. Um, I think network marketing is where I get [00:05:00] paid on the sales of people that are. In as part of my organization. And [00:05:05] then affiliate marketing is more like digital marketing where I’m just sharing a link. And so [00:05:10] some of these companies moved from like a true network marketing model to, to more of [00:05:15] an affiliate marketing model where they’re just selling links, but they don’t have the downlines of like Yeah, the multi-level, [00:05:20] the multi-level, the multi-level part of it. Um. And, um, I AJ: think it’d be [00:05:25] worthwhile, um, to talk about like why this shift, why the trend to [00:05:30] affiliate marketing for some of these larger organizations, and what does that mean across the [00:05:35] board? Compared to some of the other information and other research that we’ve [00:05:40] learned from other thought leaders in this space of how you can barely [00:05:45] make a living on affiliate marketing today. It’s like you have to have such a big following [00:05:50] and still so very few people see it, uh, that it’s like. What [00:05:55] used to you would get paid thousands or even a hundred dollars for a post. You’re now getting pennies on the [00:06:00] dollars. So there’s been also conversation that would go, why would they [00:06:05] transition to this if this is what’s really happening in this space? So I think there’s the dichotomy of [00:06:10] why are people moving to this. When you hear this counter argument of it’s [00:06:15] almost impossible for a normal individual to make any money in that. Rory: Yeah, I mean, I don’t [00:06:20] know exactly why they do it, right? Every company is different and everybody who, you know, buys and investors, they [00:06:25] do this sort of thing. But I think the general thought process is, as a company, we will become more [00:06:30] profitable if. We don’t have so many layers of payouts like we’ve had in [00:06:35] network marketing. So I don’t, I don’t think their goal is to help people make more money, and that’s just kind of [00:06:40] evidenced by the fact that some of these companies basically like let their entire field force kind of [00:06:45] go overnight effectively, or they transitioned, you know, very quickly to, to a model [00:06:50] to where it’s like, Hey, we’ll still pay you to sell our product, but we’re not gonna pay you on. The, [00:06:55] the, the downline of everyone you’ve recruited and built in. And I think, you know, [00:07:00] there’s some pain around that. There’s controversy around it. As somebody who owns a business, you know, [00:07:05] there’s an argument to go like, well, if it’s more profitable, and you know, maybe there’s reasons that we do that. But I think [00:07:10] there’s also influencer marketing, which is part of this conversation, which I think is really what you’re talking [00:07:15] about too, is going, affiliate marketing is. I give a link and I [00:07:20] get paid a percentage of those sales or a flat fee per sale. A influencer [00:07:25] marketing is more like. I get paid from the platforms per thousand [00:07:30] views, um, or brands show up and they pay me. And now that everybody is a [00:07:35] creator, I think the supply has gone through the roof and the demand [00:07:40] isn’t necessarily gone with it because I don’t know that brands are always seeing [00:07:45] directly attributable, attributable results to like. Just like brand deal marketing. [00:07:50] So there’s a lot of it. There’s all, there’s still people being successful in affiliate marketing, network marketing, direct [00:07:55] sales, uh, you know, in influencer marketing, but. It [00:08:00] begs the conversation of what is happening here and, and what’s the right [00:08:05] mix for me as an individual and for us as an organization. I mean, I, I’d be curious [00:08:10] how some of those things and topics have shaped your philosophy about what we do at Brand Builders [00:08:15] Group. Mm-hmm. In terms of the type of marketing and payouts that, that we provide. ’cause I think we’re [00:08:20] kind of pioneering and innovating in some ways in that regard. So like, how do you process [00:08:25] all of this going on as a CEO in terms of. What we can be doing to, to drive leads. AJ: Yeah. And I [00:08:30] think that’s not just, uh, pertinent to brand builders group, but for any business [00:08:35] who’s going, okay. Like, uh, and I think you could even throw in the emergence [00:08:40] of AI and technology into all of this, of going, wow. Like, do I [00:08:45] really need all these people anymore? And I think that’s a lot of the thing that’s happening with [00:08:50] some of the dissolution of these direct sales models at the multi-level, uh, [00:08:55] impact to an affiliate where it’s like, yeah, you brought these hundreds or [00:09:00] thousand, you know, for some people, thousands of people, organizations, and now all that work [00:09:05] you did is now ours. I’ll pay you direct, but not for any of the work in recruiting [00:09:10] or leading or training or building. And I, uh, you know, not to cast [00:09:15] shade anywhere ’cause I don’t know the inner workings of any of these companies, but I do [00:09:20] find that that’s a profit first approach, not a people first approach. And [00:09:25] those are, those are, those get to be harder and bigger conversations the bigger that you get.[00:09:30] Um, but those are real lives with years of history helping those [00:09:35] organizations build and for that to just go away, it, it’s a hard pill to [00:09:40] swallow. I think speaking as a business owner of going. Our philosophy [00:09:45] around ai, which we, we recorded an episode here lately on this, is like, we’re [00:09:50] not trying to have AI replace any position, but we would love it if we didn’t have to keep adding [00:09:55] positions. But we’re not in a replacement mode. Like, this is not like, Hey, we’re gonna bring in, you know, all [00:10:00] these new things that we don’t need to have, we don’t have to have as many people anymore, and we’ll be more [00:10:05] profitable. It’s like, why can’t it be both? Like why can’t we, you know, serve our [00:10:10] team and also make more profit? Right. Doesn’t. Can it be both? [00:10:15] Does it not need to be both? And I think that’s where I kind of get stuck in the middle [00:10:20] of more people, more problems. Right. And that’s more clients [00:10:25] or more team members? More problems. But that’s also a, a decided choice of [00:10:30] going like, no, it’s like, yeah, like we’re humans. There’s. There’s [00:10:35] the, there’s the potential for greater success or greater failure, the bigger you get. [00:10:40] And I think removing the human elements, in my opinion, is always a little dangerous. [00:10:45] And so that’s, I, I think for me it’s a people conversation [00:10:50] dilemma where. You know, we’ve seen all over the news with big corporations doing massive [00:10:55] thousand person layoffs with ai. You’ve see a lot of these, you know, [00:11:00] companies that are removing all these layers of leadership with all the work that’s been done over decades and [00:11:05] replacing it with links. And I, I think, yes, do I see why they’re [00:11:10] doing it on the one hand, sure. Do I know their financials? No. And yeah, those are [00:11:15] real human lives and real human costs that sometimes get left out of the equations.[00:11:20] I think that’s the hard part of all of this, and I just think there’s an opportunity [00:11:25] to go, how do we do both? Rory: Yeah. And I think that part of that has all been a catalyst to [00:11:30] particularly, I think, the direct sales industry going okay. Personal branding [00:11:35] matters a lot because people, I think there’s a few macro sort of [00:11:40] economic trends happening. One is in general, power is shifting from corporate brands [00:11:45] and corporate media conglomerates to individual people, right? We’re not loyal [00:11:50] to the company, we’re loyal to a person. We don’t trust the company. We trust the person. Mm-hmm. And so. I [00:11:55] think that has happened. The other thing is, so just as a marketing, [00:12:00] uh, channel, personal branding is really important to everybody, every type [00:12:05] of business and every, every business model. But I also think particularly in this [00:12:10] sort of direct sales industry, that for the people who spent [00:12:15] decades of their life building a field force that was. [00:12:20] Something that they treated like their own business, but on paper was never actually their own businesses [00:12:25] owned by an organization. I think certainly there is the backlash of feeling burnt and [00:12:30] like, you know, I poured my whole heart and soul into this and now you just take it away from me.[00:12:35] I think that also becomes a catalyst for people to build their personal brand to go. Mm-hmm. Now I’m gonna build my [00:12:40] own audience, I’m gonna own my own audience, I’m gonna have my own database. I’m [00:12:45] gonna, um. Be in control of like my own business, even if [00:12:50] I’m selling someone else’s product, it’s like the customers stay with me because I’m the [00:12:55] person building it. So AJ: yeah, the trust lies with the trust Rory: lies with me. And, and now the technology [00:13:00] exists for me to manage that versus turn all that those customers over to somebody else. So I think, [00:13:05] you know, it’s a weird relationship that, and, and, and a lot of dynamics, like you throw AI [00:13:10] in there that, that are going on. But I think for everybody to go. Whether you’re a [00:13:15] business, you’re a big business, you’re a small business, you’re a creator, you’re affiliate marketer, [00:13:20] you go, all of us are building our own audience. Mm-hmm. [00:13:25] And we’re building trust. And the trust must always take place before there’s a transaction. [00:13:30] And now the power lies in the individuals and the [00:13:35] technology and the tools are available to, to, to bring, for you, to own your own audience. And that is [00:13:40] something that. I think everybody should want to do and and pay [00:13:45] attention to because whether your company [00:13:50] changes its model or you own your business and your business goes outta business, or you get replaced [00:13:55] by a competitor, the fact that you own your audience is really important. Mm-hmm. And you can take your [00:14:00] audience with you. So I think that’s what makes this conversation. Interesting and, and super [00:14:05] relevant for direct sales and really for anybody who’s in any type of marketing or or sales. [00:14:10] Um, AJ: so I have a question for you about that because I think there’s been, you know, [00:14:15] probably a 15 year shift. You know, you take it back 15 years ago and you [00:14:20] look at the direct sales space. And I can think about like on a monthly [00:14:25] basis what type of home party I was getting invited to. Mm-hmm. It was a Pampered Chef party. It was a [00:14:30] Rodan and Fields party, uh, you know, Rory: wine. There was wine tastings. Yeah. There’s been all sorts of party [00:14:35] planning. Tupperware was back in the day, Mary Kay. There was the wild AJ: tree, there was the food company. It doesn’t exist [00:14:40] anymore, but it was like all the time. And over the course of the last 15 years, they got [00:14:45] completely away from that all together. Mm-hmm. It kind of went [00:14:50] all digital, all online, but now COVID Rory: accelerated that. AJ: COVID [00:14:55] accelerated that for sure. But now even with some of the most explosive growth, [00:15:00] what I would say, you know, direct sales companies or affiliate marketing companies, I think [00:15:05] about like the faster way to weight loss. I think about even some of the nonprofits like. [00:15:10] They’re finding ways of doing in-person events again. Hmm. Um, like I was just thinking about [00:15:15] faster way to weight loss because I’m on their text blast I guess from years ago, and [00:15:20] it’s like coming to Nashville for National Legs Day hosting something at, you know, [00:15:25] Opryland. And it’s like now, like there’s some of that kind of coming back in a mass community [00:15:30] appeal. And what I would just like to hear your opinion on, like why did we get [00:15:35] away from all of that and. Have you seen, have you heard about some of that [00:15:40] reemerging? I was thinking about another company that we had on the podcast a couple years ago, Hugh and Grace. Rory: Hmm. [00:15:45] AJ: And they were, you know, it’s a, a hormone free, you know, cleaning line [00:15:50] and supplements and vitamins and. But they were like, no, we want to reimagine what [00:15:55] it’s like to have a home party. And it’s more of an event and an, it’s an experience. It’s something that [00:16:00] you wanna go to, not to get sold, but for learning and education and networking. And they were really trying [00:16:05] to reimagine, uh, what it was like to host the old school, you know, [00:16:10] home parties. And then I hear about like all these other events that are happening of like, Hey, everyone come [00:16:15] in for National Leg Day. And you know, you even hear about like charities, like Charity Water, doing the [00:16:20] immersive experiences. It’s like, Hey, the online thing just isn’t working anymore. There’s too much noise, there’s [00:16:25] too much clutter. I gotta get people in real life immersive experiences [00:16:30] experiencing what we do again. So have you seen that? That’s. [00:16:35] Coming back. Rory: I feel like that I, I feel like COVID accelerated us towards a [00:16:40] digital environment and ironically, I feel like AI is accelerating [00:16:45] us back towards an analog environment because you go, if AI can do all [00:16:50] the stuff, then what do we do? What matters? Community. Yeah. [00:16:55] Relationships, emotions, and, and that lends itself to in-person [00:17:00] experiences. And I think, you know, if even at Brand Builders group we have. [00:17:05] Wrestled in that pendulum has swung back and forth about how much in person do we do versus how much per how much, uh, [00:17:10] virtual and also how much live do we do versus how much prerecorded, and we’ve [00:17:15] skewed heavily into both live. Even virtual stuff is like our members. It’s live. It’s live. [00:17:20] I mean, how many live virtual events do we have like in our, in. Entry level [00:17:25] program. It’s, it’s, it’s like one a more than one a month, isn’t it? Yeah. In our AJ: entry level program, there’s seven virtual [00:17:30] training calls you can attend, and then one every Rory: month. AJ: Every month. And Rory: those are hours. So seven one [00:17:35] hour live AJ: plus a full day live virtual event. Rory: A full day, at least one a month. AJ: [00:17:40] Every month. Rory: Every single month. Yeah. And then our in-person events, I mean, 16 a [00:17:45] year, we have AJ: 16 in-person events and an additional 24 live interactive workshops. [00:17:50] For our pro members. Yes, Rory: we do AJ: a lot of events. Rory: A lot of events. Turns out, so, [00:17:55] and I think you go, I mean, if, if I apply all this lens of what’s happening to us, I [00:18:00] think you go. The future is not about selling information and when we [00:18:05] put this in, in the book, right? Uh, people don’t pay for information. They pay for organization and [00:18:10] application. I think that continues to be true, but I also think the next evolution of that is like people pay for [00:18:15] application and they also pay for community. Mm-hmm. They pay to be, I want to be, I wanna find my [00:18:20] people. I want to have in-person experiences. I wanna be in an environment where I feel supported and [00:18:25] cheered on. I think, you know, we’re leaning so heavily into helping people get on each other’s podcasts and [00:18:30] helping them share speaking opportunities and, and doing client referrals [00:18:35] because it’s like that’s the part that AI can’t replace the relationships. Mm-hmm. [00:18:40] So, you know, if we were building a direct sales company, I would be leaning [00:18:45] heavily into that. You know, anecdotally, I think some are doing that. [00:18:50] Um. Some of the other ones are moving away towards just like more towards social selling the, the affiliate thing. [00:18:55] Now, when I saw, uh, Stuart Johnson did a presentation, so he’s the, he’s the owner of Direct Selling News and [00:19:00] he had this very, very data rich presentation on what’s happening in the world of direct [00:19:05] selling. He was showing, um. The data behind some of those companies that switched [00:19:10] to affiliate marketing and direct sales. And while they maybe have become more [00:19:15] profitable, nobody knows, always, many of them are privately held, their revenue has [00:19:20] gone down tremendously. Um, and part of that makes sense. You know, you let all these people [00:19:25] go and they all go run off and they go to a different direct sales company or whatever, but, um.[00:19:30] You know, there, you lose that bond, you lose that comradery. And I think [00:19:35] direct sales, what, what has made direct sales, again, going all the way back to my mom, it [00:19:40] was like community. It was community. It was being around women who made her feel beautiful [00:19:45] and she could help them feel beautiful I, and supported and important, and it was like, [00:19:50] AJ: mm-hmm. Rory: Part of why I have such a passion for direct selling is [00:19:55] because. The product isn’t the product, the industry is the product. Yeah, I AJ: was gonna say it’s the common [00:20:00] experience of all of that. Rory: And it’s personal development. I mean, direct [00:20:05] sales is basically a way to monetize personal development. And so it’s learning AJ: goal [00:20:10] setting time, manage management and leading and time management productivity. Rory: And you go and, and [00:20:15] the other reason I’ve always loved direct sales is, and sales in general mm-hmm. Is [00:20:20] sales to me is the ultimate level playing field. Mm-hmm. And you know, I. We didn’t grow up with a [00:20:25] lot of money. You know, didn’t, didn’t have Ivy League connections and didn’t grow up with [00:20:30] powerful relationships with people who were high up in companies. But it was like [00:20:35] sales is this thing that goes like, I don’t care if you got your degree from Harvard. Mm-hmm. Or if you [00:20:40] dropped outta school. Both: Mm-hmm. Rory: Can you knock on a door? Can you overcome rejection? Yeah. Can you build a [00:20:45] relationship? Can you add trust? Can you add value? Can you follow up? Can you stay in touch? Do you have a good [00:20:50] product? It’s like, I don’t care about your pedigree. I don’t care about your. Connections. It’s like it’s [00:20:55] really you as a person. And I’ve always loved that. And, um, you know, I [00:21:00] told this to that audience when I was speaking a few weeks ago. I said, you know, when [00:21:05] you and I started, we really were like building a speaking [00:21:10] career. And, you know, we were building a coaching company, consulting company, speaking. We learned [00:21:15] personal branding for ourselves, being speakers, authors, coaches, consultants. [00:21:20] I never would’ve thought. When we were learning all of that 20 years ago. [00:21:25] You would fast forward to now and you go, no. Personal branding is not just for [00:21:30] experts, it’s for all professional service providers. It’s for anyone with any type of field [00:21:35] sales force. Mm-hmm. And especially direct sales. Absolutely. And [00:21:40] net and network marketing, AJ: it’s the whole concept of your reputation precedes you. And in [00:21:45] this case, it better. Right? It’s like it, you need to be the person that’s like, oh, let [00:21:50] me introduce you too. Right, and I think that’s a, that is a really important thing for sales in [00:21:55] general, right? You wanna be the first person that someone thinks of when they think of what [00:22:00] you sell, because that’s how you get referrals. That’s how you get word of mouth customers. That’s the difference [00:22:05] of being a megaphone versus a magnet, right? Are you just out there, hustle, hustle, hustle? Or [00:22:10] are you actually attracting people into you because you have built a strong community, [00:22:15] you deliver good service, you have a good product, you stay in touch with people, you [00:22:20] have community. Right. And that is a lot of how you build that regardless of what [00:22:25] kind of sales you’re in. That’s just sales. Rory: But, but yeah. And, but it’s like the in [00:22:30] direct sales, the money they pay to the field force. Historically, [00:22:35] the network marketing, right. All these organizational downlines is money they didn’t [00:22:40] spend on corporate advertising. Marketing, yeah. And marketing. So. Direct sales has [00:22:45] always been like the purest, truest form of like, if you’re buying, you’re buying because of me, me. AJ: [00:22:50] Mm-hmm. Rory: My re my reputation, your trust with me, AJ: my effort, my outreach. Rory: [00:22:55] Yes. You’re not buying ’cause it’s like, oh, I’ve seen that product on, uh, the Super Bowl [00:23:00] commercial or the ads. Um. So, you know, it would be interesting to see the, the, [00:23:05] the direct sales companies that are shifting away from the field force. Are they pouring more [00:23:10] into advertising now? You know, I think it’s, you know, companies like Beachbody and Rodan and Fields in [00:23:15] particular, they had done a great job of that. Rodan and Fields had already. Already had [00:23:20] a very established brand. Yeah. You know, body, which was previously Beachbody had the whole nine, uh, P [00:23:25] 90 X movement and all that kind of stuff. So they, they had a lot of brand equity that was [00:23:30] outside their, their field force. Um, but for anybody listening, you [00:23:35] know, the thing that I think applies to all of us is how do I own my own audience? How do I build [00:23:40] trust? And then. What type of transactions am I creating? Mm-hmm. [00:23:45] Am I gonna sell my own products and services? Um, and this goes to the [00:23:50] paid that we teach in the, in, in the book, um, in the monetization strategy chapter, which is your [00:23:55] chapter. Yeah. Why don’t you do a quick, well quick review of the page. AJ: Paids are products. Those are [00:24:00] tangible things that you can touch. Hold, right? Those are your widgets, uh, those are your items. Then you’ve got [00:24:05] ads and affiliates, right? You gotta have a big enough platform, a big enough audience where someone is [00:24:10] paying you money to get access and exposure to your audience. Mm-hmm. Then you have [00:24:15] information. Right. So I would say, uh, information be courses that could be [00:24:20] eBooks, it’s uh, anything, membership Rory: certifications, [00:24:25] assessments, all that kind stuff. Stuff. Totally. AJ: Um, then you have deals, right? So that could be book deals, that could be [00:24:30] sponsorship deals, uh, that could be different brand deals. But you’re getting paid because again, [00:24:35] your platform, your audience, your notoriety. You already have an established personal brand that doesn’t [00:24:40] technically happen if you don’t have something already established. And then you’ve got services, which [00:24:45] is the most common, the most popular and the most pervasive of all of them, which is [00:24:50] anything that’s in the service business. We would fit in services, all professional services, uh, [00:24:55] anything that you can think of from attorneys to doctors, to financial services, to [00:25:00] insurance, to real estate to mortgage to. Coaching, consulting, those are all services. [00:25:05] So that’s a quick recap of paid. Rory: And I think in, in direct sales, you used to say, [00:25:10] okay, even before social media, if we said a personal brand is a reputation. Okay. It [00:25:15] was very clear. I, I, my mom worked for Mary Kay. She sold a physical product. Yeah, [00:25:20] right. She was in that key category. All direct sales AJ: almost are all physical products Rory: almost [00:25:25] entirely, almost. And they’re, a lot of ’em are in the health in beauty space. [00:25:30] Supplements AJ: Avatar woman. Rory: Yeah. Yes. Um, and, and, [00:25:35] and when, what the shift that has happened is you’re going, oh, well now they’re moving [00:25:40] more into affiliates, where they’re going, okay, I’m just giving out affiliate links. Which shifts the model to where you [00:25:45] go all if I am, you know, like if, if my mom were selling this today, [00:25:50] if all she has is links mm-hmm. She actually. The company is less [00:25:55] loyal to her and she also is less loyal to the company because AJ: she could have links for lots of people, Rory: beauty [00:26:00] Counter, and she could have links. She could be selling Rodan and Fields and Mary Kay. Now, some of the direct sales [00:26:05] companies are, I disallow that, disallow, that post, AJ: disallow that. Rory: But um, there’s this woman that spoke at the [00:26:10] conference. Her name was Heather. I wish I could remember her last name, I think maybe Frazier. But she said, you [00:26:15] know, in direct sales. Brand loyalty is still alive, but brand [00:26:20] monogamy is dead. Mm. And so what she was the, the point that she was making, which I thought was [00:26:25] really good, was she was like, Hey, if you’re not all in on them, they’re not gonna be all in on you. And [00:26:30] don’t expect them to be, because if it’s an affiliate model, they can also affiliate [00:26:35] for Brand Builders group. They can affiliate for some other nutrition line there. You AJ: could get. [00:26:40] You could fill, its everything. Blanket, Rory: blankets and whatever. Like, and, and, and that’s [00:26:45] also the shift that’s happened was I was the Mary Kay lady and now [00:26:50] I’m a lifestyle influencers. But that’s problem for everything and AJ: pretty much against everything that [00:26:55] we teach and believe in when it comes down to how do you break through she hands, walls. Exactly. [00:27:00] Which is you become known for one thing. You don’t wanna be a jack of all trades, you wanna be a Dr. Jack of [00:27:05] one trade and. That’s a problem. Rory: So that’s, so that was AJ: dilution? Rory: Yes. [00:27:10] And that’s what I said on stage. I said, the problem here is you got an industry and a whole [00:27:15] culture that’s moving. That’s problem. That’s a towards telling people like, Hey, have multiple streams of income, have a [00:27:20] bunch of these affiliate links. But you and I know, and the data is super strong that the [00:27:25] way you get rich is not from multiple streams of income, one. From one amazing stream of [00:27:30] income, you do one thing really well. And so I do see that as a, as a problem. Just take AJ: this [00:27:35] out of the direct sales space for a second. I just want everyone to think about this. Like, what [00:27:40] if you were talking to your financial advisor and all of a sudden he was like, Hey, just so you know, [00:27:45] I’ve started selling cars. Uh, would you wanna go to the, the lot and see some cars? Rory: Such a [00:27:50] good example? Or AJ: what if he was like, you know what, I’ve also, I’ve started a, a healthcare line, [00:27:55] really love to show you my supplements. I’d be like, what are you doing now? I don’t wanna [00:28:00] learn about your cars and supplements. I thought we were talking about my finances. Rory: Yeah, AJ: just like a [00:28:05] ra. Imagine in real life Rory: if your doctor was suddenly like, you know, teaching softball [00:28:10] lessons all, all the time on the side. Like, AJ: like Rory: what, what? [00:28:15] Professionals to be a professional, you study a craft, an AJ: expert in one thing, you [00:28:20] need to be known for one thing. While that’s a really big potential issue. So I have one quick [00:28:25] question as we wrap into the next segment. If you were starting. [00:28:30] Brand new, fresh in this space of direct sales. What’s [00:28:35] one thing that you would do today to build brand notoriety to [00:28:40] build this community? Like what would you do today if you were not at Brand Builders group and you’re like, [00:28:45] I’m gonna start over in direct sales, what would be the first thing that you would do to, Rory: [00:28:50] so it’s a philosophical thing, instead of trying to figure out how I could [00:28:55] pay the least amount of money to people to sell my thing. I [00:29:00] would figure out how do I pay people the most amount of money with the least amount of effort? Mm-hmm. [00:29:05] Which is exactly what we do at Brand Builders Group. Um, those of you that are watching or listening, you may [00:29:10] not know this, but we have a referral partner program where we pay a 10% lifetime [00:29:15] referral fee and we pay the referral fee to whoever’s the first person that refers someone to [00:29:20] us. And it’s very transparent across the board, and it’s whoever is the first person that [00:29:25] sends us the lead. To somebody, we pay them and we pay them forever on any of our core [00:29:30] strategy services that someone buys. And people have said, why do you do that? Why don’t you pay the last [00:29:35] person who made the sale? And it’s like, no, we’re rewarding the person who is out there talking about us [00:29:40] first. And they go, why do you pay forever? And they say, well, one, because we don’t have high [00:29:45] margins, so we can’t pay huge affiliate fees all upfront. And it’s like, I want to [00:29:50] send Lewis Howes checks every month, and Ed Millet and Amy Porterfield, and you know, our top [00:29:55] affiliates, Jenna Kutcher, and these people who have supported us. I want them to make more money. Why? [00:30:00] Because I want them to think about us and go, they’re gonna redirect traffic. [00:30:05] Now, affiliate in our own model is. Primary revenue stream, [00:30:10] it’s the A and page. So if you said, oh, I am just gonna drive affiliate traffic, that in some [00:30:15] ways is one thing, but you go, I’m not gonna be spending my time creating products and [00:30:20] launching services and managing and building teams to do all these things. Yeah. I’m a media company [00:30:25] that builds audience and I sell ads and affiliates, and that’s part of what Lewis got really clear on and it’s like, [00:30:30] I want them to to. So I think we’ve done that really well. I [00:30:35] think it’s now people are, it’s, it’s working and people are seeing the evidence of brand builders [00:30:40] group growing because so many people are talking about us, and then more people hear about us, and then they all make money [00:30:45] referring us to people. And so, in a weird way, I think Brand Builders Group has become a modern [00:30:50] day network marketing through our referral partner program. But you know, we, we [00:30:55] have created that massive passive mailbox money. So [00:31:00] anyways, that’s how we do th we do things, any of our clients can be referral partner. And by the way.[00:31:05] You, you can, we will pay you to give our audio book away for free. Look at how we [00:31:10] did our book launch. Yeah, we did this. We said you can go to, uh, I think it’s brand [00:31:15] builders group.com/referral partner, and you can [00:31:20] request. Your own affiliate link to give our audio book away [00:31:25] in full for free to your audience. And then what happens is we tag all those people in our system is coming from [00:31:30] you and if they ever request a call from our team, we do all the selling, all the follow up [00:31:35] deal with all the cash collection, we do everything. All you have to do is give away our book [00:31:40] and we send you money. Massive passive mailbox money forever. So I think [00:31:45] we’ve done that and I think. You know, you’re asking me the question, what would I would do? I [00:31:50] would do exactly what we have done all over again, which is more of a [00:31:55] philosophy is going, how can I pay people the most amount of money with [00:32:00] the least amount of effort from them as possible? We create, we wrote the book, we created the assets, we did [00:32:05] everything. AJ: You just gotta share it. Rory: You just gotta share it. And if you’re gonna move into that model, [00:32:10] I think it’s that. But coming back to what you said earlier, the problem is. People are [00:32:15] making a profit First decision instead of a people first decision. And you know [00:32:20] who’s to say what is right? But I think you and I are aligned on like the people first, and we [00:32:25] believe the profit shows up as a byproduct a AJ: hundred percent. Now we are going to [00:32:30] do what we call community questions. This is where a question from our [00:32:35] community gets boated up and we answer the top question from our Brain Builders group community. [00:32:40] Rory: Today’s question is how do you manage relationships at [00:32:45] scale, but meanwhile making every single person feel valued and important? And this is the [00:32:50] perfect question for you, because you do this as good as anybody in the world. [00:32:55] You manage so many relationships, and you have a knack for making people still [00:33:00] feel important and valued and special, and showing up. And we were just talking [00:33:05] about this this weekend. So I would love, personally would love to hear your philosophy on this. AJ: Yeah. You [00:33:10] know, I think a lot of people talk about the techniques and tactics and tips and [00:33:15] schedules and, you know, different programs you can buy of how to stay in [00:33:20] touch and do this many things at this frequency and yes. [00:33:25] Can you do all of that? Have I done a lot of that? Sure. But what I have come to find [00:33:30] as a parent. And I think this is where I’ve learned this most, is that [00:33:35] quality is better than quantity. And what I have found is that a [00:33:40] few genuine outreaches, a few genuine conversations, [00:33:45] I few really personal touches make up for months of no connection [00:33:50] at all. And I think. What I have found, uh, of what people do for me and [00:33:55] what I do for people is can you and will you be present in life’s [00:34:00] greatest moments and in life’s hardest moments? Mm. And that’s how you do it at scale. Uh, [00:34:05] I think that I’m a very big firm believer. Jenny Allen talks a lot about this in her book, [00:34:10] find Your People, that it’s almost impossible to have deep, intimate [00:34:15] relationships with more than a few people. Hmm. Because of the amount of time that it takes and [00:34:20] you just don’t have it. She talks a lot about, I love this book. If you’re, if you’re an [00:34:25] adult trying to figure out how to make friends as an adult, I highly recommend this book. Find Your People by [00:34:30] Jenny Allen and Rory: all Jenny Allen books she loves. I love her AJ: avatar. That’s true. [00:34:35] Um, but I love what she talks about is, you know, the concept of proximity is power is [00:34:40] true for deep, meaningful, intimate relationships. And that’s not meant to be done at [00:34:45] scale. Mm. It’s really not. And she goes, if you’re not randomly running into someone at [00:34:50] church, at school, at the grocery store, you cannot do life together. And that’s [00:34:55] true, but that doesn’t mean that you can’t love. People serve people and be there [00:35:00] for people, but as your, you know, the volume grows in your relationships and in your [00:35:05] community, how do you keep that authentic connection alive at scale? What I have found [00:35:10] for me, what people do for me and what I do for people, is that you show up to celebrate [00:35:15] the mountaintop moments. You were most certainly there for the value moments, [00:35:20] and that makes up for months or years of little to no connection at [00:35:25] all because it’s not surface level. It’s there to celebrate the [00:35:30] things that happen once in a lifetime. It’s babies, it’s weddings, it’s [00:35:35] uh, book launches, it’s product launches, it’s sales of businesses, it’s [00:35:40] graduations, it’s life’s biggest moments that everyone was like, thank you for being there. And it’s [00:35:45] also life’s hardest moments. When there was a death or a sickness or an illness or, [00:35:50] um, a disaster or a business failing or, you know, a mental health [00:35:55] challenge of also showing up in those moments of like, they’re like, and you were there too.[00:36:00] And I have found that being there for life’s biggest and hardest moments is [00:36:05] how you stay connected at scale. It’s not in the everyday, hey, just, you know, [00:36:10] it’s been six months, wanted to see how you were doing. Um, it’s no like, you show up for the things [00:36:15] that count. You show up in the valleys and you show up on the mountaintops. Rory: Mm-hmm. [00:36:20] I’m not the best to answer this question. I don’t think I, I do a, a particularly great job at it, [00:36:25] but I do watch you do it and as you’re talking, there’s like a little framework coming to, to head for [00:36:30] me of going, you celebrate, you commiserate. The other thing I think you [00:36:35] do is you commemorate. Mm Uh, I remember when I very first launched, like, take [00:36:40] the stairs. You got me like pen. Yeah. That said take the stairs. And it [00:36:45] was technically, AJ: I got you. Pens, notepads, pens, not pads. Popping mugs, pads, Uhhuh magnet [00:36:50] stickers. Rory: And it’s, it’s part of celebrating, but it’s like celebrating is more of like life’s [00:36:55] biggest moments. Yeah. Commemorating is like acknowledging more of like.[00:37:00] The special things people are into. I remember the first gift you ever got me before yoga Mat. We were dating, yoga was a yoga [00:37:05] mat. You were commemorating that. I had just started going to yoga and I was like. That is such a [00:37:10] thoughtful gift. Mm-hmm. Not expensive. Not the nicest gift I ever got, but one of the most [00:37:15] thoughtful. Yeah. And I think that’s what commemorating about is being thoughtful [00:37:20] and strategic, almost anticipating what do people need or what’s big in their world [00:37:25] right now. Mm-hmm. And you are the best gift giver. And, and, and I think [00:37:30] that, I think that’s it. And I, I’ve watched you show up for people. In the good [00:37:35] times. Definitely in the hard times. You, you are the friend to have in a crisis. AJ: Yeah. I say this [00:37:40] all the time, I’m not a great casual friend. If you’re looking for the girlfriend to go chit chat or, [00:37:45] uh, you know, go to the movies with, I’m probably not your friend. Like, that’s not who you call for that. But [00:37:50] I’m the best friend in the world for someone who’s going through a crisis. Yeah. Mm-hmm. [00:37:55] I’m not good at that. And, and maybe that’s why I stay in touch is at scale that way is I’m [00:38:00] not your chitchat girlfriend. If you wanna have a deep conversation about how the world was [00:38:05] created, I’m down for it. But if you wanna talk about what happened in fashion this week, I’m gonna, [00:38:10] I’m not your pr, no one’s calling me for that. They know. Um, but I do think it’s. But that’s also [00:38:15] how I’m able to keep deep, long relationships with very infrequent communication [00:38:20] is because when I do make the time, when I do have the opportunity, it’s like we’re [00:38:25] going deep. It’s not, we’re not talking about the weather. Uh, we’re talking about, uh, [00:38:30] life’s biggest struggles. What’s happening with your kids, what’s happening in your marriage? We’re going deep [00:38:35] fast. It’s not a surface level wide conversation, but I also think it’s like that’s how you build [00:38:40] meaningful relationships. That can stand the test of time when you don’t live together and [00:38:45] you don’t live near each other and you don’t talk every month. You might talk once a year. [00:38:50] You can still have deep, meaningful relationships and only talk once a year. Mm-hmm. And it’s because when you do [00:38:55] talk, it’s the important stuff. Rory: Yeah. And again, I I, I don’t feel like the expert to add to this, [00:39:00] but I, I, I wanna share one quote for everybody that I heard, and it was a guest that I [00:39:05] interviewed on our show. This is from Ryan Leveque. I’m not a hundred percent sure this is [00:39:10] true a hundred percent of the time, but it has totally stuck with me, and I have [00:39:15] wrestled with it because there’s so much truth in it that I’m like, maybe it is [00:39:20] always true. And one of the things that Ryan said, it was so simple, he said, the best things in [00:39:25] life. Do not scale. Mm. The best things in life [00:39:30] do not scale. Um, and I’m like, there’s, you know, there are some great [00:39:35] things that scale, but like the best things in life, they really don’t scale. And so [00:39:40] you, you make the time to show up. Yeah. To, uh, celebrate, commiserate, [00:39:45] commemorate AJ: the Three C’s. Coming to a new book soon. Rory: [00:39:50] Yes, absolutely. The world is changing. It’s changing fast. The world of marketing, the world [00:39:55] of sales, the world of online offline reputation. And this podcast is the place [00:40:00] that you wanna stay connected to if you want solid, steady truth, [00:40:05] data-driven, practical, faith-driven principles to help you navigate. That [00:40:10] change. So hit subscribe, come back, stay tuned. [00:40:15] We’re gonna be open and honest with you every single week. Share this with other people who want, uh, a [00:40:20] solid foundation for how to navigate the changing world of personal branding and [00:40:25] reputation, and turning those reputations into revenue. Hit subscribe.