RV (00:06): Welcome to the Influential Personal Brand podcast. This is the place where we help mission-driven messengers, just like you learn how to build and monetize your personal brand. My name is Rory Vaden and I’m the co-founder of Brand Builders Group, a hall of fame speaker, and New York Times bestselling author. And this show is to help experts learn how to become more wealthy and well known. I know you’re gonna love it. Thanks for being here. Let’s get started. Whoever says you don’t make real friends on social media is lying to you because I do occasionally, not that often, but occasionally I do make real friends online, and that is the case with the woman You’re about to meet Jamie Hess. Technically we met on Instagram and it’s because we have lots of mutual friends already, right? And as soon as I came across her profile, or she came across mine, I’m not exactly sure. RV (00:58): We just started messaging and I was like, oh man, she’s so cool. She has such a fascinating background and such an important specific skillset that we’re gonna talk about today. So, first of all, so Jamie is a wellness entrepreneur. She’s a mindset coach and a media personality. And she’s the host of a podcast called The Gratitude Ology Podcast which has been featured on the Today Show. She created a, a, a very popular Instagram account, which we’ll talk about in her story, and that led her to really becoming like a content creator. So before that, she worked in media pr she was a marketing expert, did a lot of brand stuff, which is, you know, obviously what we have in common. But she was working in more like the corporate environment with McDonald’s and GM and LinkedIn and Barry’s Bootcamp and, and the W Hotel, which is one of my favorite hotel chains. RV (01:49): And then as she moved into becoming a content creator, she, one of the things that she talks about is securing brand deals and high paying like ambassador deals, which is part of what we’re gonna talk about. So she’s also the face of Zuta active wear on QVC. She has been on shows like Good Morning America, the View and Beyond. She’s also a TEDx speaker and just really understands this space. And so I was like, this is a no-brainer. Let’s just meet in person, so to speak on the podcast. So Jamie, welcome to the show you JH (02:24): So much for having me. RV (02:25): Yeah. So so I wanna talk brand deals. You know, our audience is Mission-driven messengers, and, and specifically we tend to serve like experts and entrepreneurs. So most of our audience actually makes money selling services, either like professional services of some kind or it might be like coaching and consulting and speaking if it’s, if it’s not like, you know, if it’s not like accounting or doctors and that kind of thing. But more and more we have a growing audience of people who are kind of either lifestyle influencers or micro influencers or just people who are growing their, their profiles in general. And now all of a sudden they might be getting approached by brands or they’re thinking about working with brands. So I wanna get into that, but before we get into all that, tell me a little bit, a high level of your story of how you got into teaching what you teach now. JH (03:25): Thank you so much for that great setup. And by the way, I just have to say like, incidentally, my people, the people I like to work with to teach brand deals, they’re not wannabe influencers, right? Because I hate that. Like, I never wanted to teach a course on how to be an influencer. It is your people, Rory. It is people who are already entrepreneurs, keynote speakers, podcasters, authors, lifestyle entrepreneurs, just people that have A-P-O-V-A thing or two to say an expertise and some platform to amplify that on. But they don’t realize that they’re leaving money on the table because brands might like to be a part of that message. So I’m actually teaching your pe like these, this is my audience, your people who don’t even realize that brand deals could be a thing. ’cause They’re like, I don’t wanna be an influencer. Throw that word out the window, right? JH (04:11): Brand deals are for everyone. So I’ll just say, I’ll, I’ll start with that. So for 17 years I was actually a PR executive, and I worked through every different vertical of public relations. So I started with movies and music and hospitality. I was a big nightlife girl, big nightclub girl actually now sober for over 20 years. So that’s a big part of my story. But the nightlife PR world chewed me up and spit me out. But I learned a lot through that process. And then I went into like the bigger corporate stuff. So I was the SVP of an agency called The Narrative Group, and I represented brands, like you mentioned McDonald’s and, and General Motors. I actually got engaged on a treadmill at Barry’s Bootcamp Fund RV (04:50): . Nice. JH (04:51): But what ended up happening, Rory, was because of that engagement. So my mom, who is TV journalist, Joan London, happened to be at the engagement as, as a mom would, right? And because she was there, it ended up on page six and in all the gossip columns. And it gave my husband and I this kind of random launch as this public facing fit couple. Interesting. Yeah. It launched our public persona. Like we were already fitness geeks. We just love wellness. It’s our thing, you know, we love to work out, but we kind of played around with sharing our fitness journey on social media, but not really seriously. But after this moment where all of a sudden there was a little bit of a spark, and we had some new followers we’re like, Hey, should we go with this? Like, let’s have some fun. So we started this Instagram account called NYC FitFam Uhhuh. JH (05:39): And at that time, hashtag FitFam was like a moniker. It meant like getting your fit family together, your IRL buddies at the gym. And so we started NYC FitFam and we started doing all this content. We also have a may December romance, you know, we’re 20 years apart. So all of this content around me being a, you know, kind of young mom and him being, you know, at his age, like how does he stay fit? How does he stay energetic for our kids? And it sparked what ended up happening from there was I started doing on the side deals with brands. You know, as one does, as their Instagram starts growing, I started representing like supplements and energy drinks because I was a fitness influencer. Sure. And eventually, after about 18 months of doing both, meaning my full-time job and my side hustle, my side hustle, started out pacing my full hustle Uhhuh. And I was like, you know what? I love being a publicist. I didn’t leave my my agency job because I didn’t like it. I just saw how much more was possible for me as an entrepreneur. And I gave notice and it was the best thing i I ever did. Never looked back. RV (06:43): Wow. So your first brand deals as a creator, they just kind of, how did they show up? Like what? And, and, and tell me about like, how long had you been creating content and how many followers did you have? Which platforms? And then how did the first kind of brand deals show up in your, in your universe? JH (07:06): So I’m an Instagram creator that is my platform. And I’ll give you this. So I had a little bit, I’m a little bit uniquely positioned because I was the one hiring the influencers for McDonald’s and General Motors. And so I was writing the influencer briefs and I was lucky enough to be on the forefront of like the data and the white papers on how consumer behavior is being influenced and what are the new trends in influencer marketing and how does this all work and does it really work? And I was able to say categorically, yes it does, and this is the future. And also this is the way it works best. Meaning like, as a publicist, I know what I would wanna be pitched from a, from an influencer, from a creator. I know how my creators work best with me. Meaning they, they understand there’s a consumer at the end of the rainbow. JH (07:52): They understand about like showing up and working in the spirit of partnership. They understand about showing up and bringing best in class work and, and meeting deadlines and being an amazing partner and creative and helping me do my job. And so I wanted to show up as a creator like that. Now, in the beginning, I didn’t have that much leeway in the beginning. I did what everyone does. I hopped on a few of the influencer platforms and I signed up and I said, Hey, what could I do? And I did my first brand deal for $200. Nice. It was with that, that sugar-free soda brand called Zia. And I took a picture of me, RV (08:24): Oh yeah, I drink Zevia, we , it’s JH (08:25): Delicious. I love Zia. And it was, I, I took a picture of me and my family, me and my 3-year-old son, and my husband having a, a picnic in Central Park and got paid $200 for posting it on my Instagram. And I was like, that was very cool. Like that, that rocked. And I was like, you know, if find me $200, maybe you could $300. And I just started inching it up. Here’s the thing. At that point, I only had a couple thousand followers. Fine. What I did have was that best in class spirit, meaning I brought to every campaign that I did the same energy and preparation that I would bring to a seven figure campaign with McDonald’s. Like I just insisted on showing up as if I was a creator with a million followers. And what happened was, a lot of my people who I coach now to get brand deals, because they’re your audience, right? JH (09:20): They’re people that already have a professional acumen. They’re, they’re important. They’re, they’re, they’re people who have created credibility and they’re worried oftentimes that doing brand deals is gonna water them down. Oh, I don’t wanna look like I’m selling out. I don’t want, that’s embarrassing. I don’t wanna do brand deals because that’s like, you know, that’s what like cheesy influencers do. I promise you my social media grew as a byproduct of doing brand deals because I showed up to them with integrity and because people saw brands taking a chance on me saying, I believe in this girl. This girl can amplify my product. She has credibility, she has integrity. People started to then listen to me and follow me. And so I fully believe because my account grew rather quickly, I started doing brand deals around the 5,000 follower count RV (10:10): Before . Okay, that’s what I was gonna ask. So you were at like 5,000 followers, 5,000 and that, and those are, those are small deals, but it’s like a couple hundred bucks for a post. Like it’s not, it’s better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick. JH (10:21): A hundred percent. It was great. And you have to start somewhere. So I got to practice, and before you knew it, we were, you know, my husband and I were holding Mylar balloons with a three zero K, you know, to celebrate 30,000 followers as one did in the, in the, you know, that time period. Everyone had Mylar balloons. But we were celebrating those milestones. It was like 30,000, then it was 50,000. And then I started putting together little groups of brands, Hey, we’re about to hit a 50,000 follower marker. Hey, these five brands, do you wanna get together and help us celebrate? And I started putting together little programs and growing my scope and scale of how I worked with brands. And so as I started learning how to do this on a bigger scale, this is now what I teach today, how do you think bigger with regards to brand deals? Because I’ll tell you this, that the jump to the end of the story is when I left my corporate job, which is a multi six figure a year paycheck with health insurance, a lot of people, including my own mom, said, I was completely crazy by the way, I was pregnant and left a job with health insurance. And I said, with all due respect, I, I think you’re wrong. And within 18 months, I had five x my, my income. RV (11:22): So how much can someone expect to make from a brand deal? Like, so if you start out getting a couple hundred dollars maybe for a post, if you really pursue this, and you go, okay, I’m gonna make it a focus, I’m gonna make myself attractive to brands, I’m gonna become good at creating creative that serves an audience and also advocates for a brand. Like how much does one make for, you know, doing this kind of like per post or per company or per engagement? Like, I mean, I’m, I know it’s probably all over the place, but like, give us an idea. JH (12:03): I’m gonna do that. So I’ll take you through, for instance, the lifecycle of some of my work with a brand, because keep in mind and what I teach, so I, I teach a course called Brand Ninja because I believe that like, you know, to have like ninja status of working with brands, you should be able to think social media plus, plus. What I mean by that is, I don’t live and die by a transactional post. I don’t like to say I charge this much for one Instagram post and then we call it a day and we go our separate ways. I like to think, how can I really get under the hood with a brand because I geek out on my brands Rory like that. And this is also why I think people, why I come with integrity and authenticity, right? Like influencers have a bad name because a lot of influencers do cheap brand deals, meaning they hold up a toothpaste that they never used and they say, buy this toothpaste. JH (12:49): And they take the check and they walk away. And that’s a cheap, silly brand deal. But when you really care and you really sign on to work with a brand because you, you’ve tried the brand, you think it’s great and you wanna grow with the brand and help them, I’ll, I’ll give you an example of what’s possible. So one brand for instance, I had reached out to them ’cause I had a genuine problem. People love this story ’cause it’s, this is also an example of where I’m willing to be vulnerable and where I’m willing to upcharge for my vulnerability. I believe that after having children running a half marathon should be called peeing your pants for 13.1 miles. Uhhuh, . ’cause That’s just what it is. All right? Like, let’s be real here. So I had this issue, which by the way, one in three women have after having children, it’s called stress urinary incontinence. JH (13:32): And it’s super common, and I’m super not embarrassed by it because I had two beautiful babies that I brought into this world. And like it happens, get over it, right? But that’s, but for most women, by the way, this is like devastatingly embarrassing and it’s something that you usually don’t even talk to their doctors about. So I said, you know what, there’s gotta be a brand or two out there that could address this, and I wonder if they could help me. And then I in turn could help them by amplifying, maybe they could help me fix the problem and then I could share my experience. So I, I connected with this brand and I said to them, I have this issue. I’d love to try your product. Maybe we could do some content together. It started off where they engaged me to do one or two Instagram posts. JH (14:13): At that time, I think I was charging $5,000 a post. My rates are higher now. They started around 7,500 a post given my, you know, I have around 220,000 followers. So that’s pretty standard. And I did a couple Instagram posts for them and then we, I said, okay, great. That went really well. My audience, I’ve never gotten more dms than those posts. ’cause People were saying, oh my God, does this really work? I’ve never even talked to my doctor about this. I’ve been so embarrassed. Please help. And then I went back to them, I showed them the screen grabs of the dms. I said, here, this is what I’m hearing from my audience. Let’s talk about what else we can do together. I started doing some more stuff. I hosted an event for them in New York City with other influencers. I wrote a couple blog posts for them. JH (14:54): Then I, I was having my second baby. I said, what if you guys kind of signed on as the hero of my getting back in shape after baby story, right? Like, I wanna run a half marathon, the Hamptons half, it’s about six months after I have the second baby. What if you guys helped me get back out on the pavement? So I, I enga they engaged me, I pitched something and they bought into it for a longer cadence of a storytelling frame, right? So I had multiple pulse points deliverables. So that was maybe going from like a $5,000 marker to like a $25,000 marker. Where now we’re doing a six month deal the following year they said, we now need somebody on a larger scale to do 360 media for us. We’re gonna do some integrations on bigger television shows. We wanna get this word out to a bigger audience. JH (15:41): That turned into a multi six figure a year deal because I was now their on air ambassador. So my point in telling you that story is by watering the flowers of that relationship, by first of all, reaching out to a brand that authentically meant something to me that I wanted to share with my audience. How they were genuinely helping me solve a problem. And then by growing within the context of that relationship, I grew up from a $5,000 opportunity to what became a multi-six figure a year opportunity for two years in a row. I was their ambassador for two years and made about half a million dollars with them. RV (16:14): Yeah. And that’s, so I, I love that story. It’s such a great story. And I, I think, like I’ve had friends who also sell like sponsorships, which is kind of closely related. And, and the, one of the things that I learned from them was, it’s like you package things together. Just like you’re saying, it’s like, I’ll, it’s not just an Instagram post. It’s, I’ll write blogs. I’ll show up at your event, I’ll be your spokesperson. I’ll appear on a media interview, I’ll send an email blast to, you know, to my list. I’ll, I’ll include, I’ll include your logo on my website. Like, there’s all these other things that you kind of bundle together long term, which have more value to the brand, and then that creates more value, more value for you, which I love. And then I think one of, probably the other biggest thing I’ve learned from people in kind of this space, like you who teach this is exactly what you said is, is go look around at the products that you actually use every day and that you really believe in that you would maybe tell people about for free and actually contact those brands and tell them, like, would you, would you agree with that strategy? JH (17:22): A hundred percent. It’s the first thing I tell people to do. People really tend to overcomplicate it. So, you know, in my course, I break it down, I have like an eight week curriculum and one week is literally, and it’s this simple, I’m gonna give, I’m gonna give this away right now. This is one whole week of my course. I’m gonna give it to you guys right now. And of course I take an hour to really go through it. But I’m gonna, here’s the TLDR as the kids say, right? Okay, open up a spreadsheet, make three you know, three sheets, three, you know, you’re gonna make three buckets. One, this is three categories of products that you might use. So for me, maybe it’s beverages, right? And that could be broad too. It could be waters non-alcoholic cocktail brands, kombucha, functional beverages. JH (18:04): Or it could just be things I like to drink. Another thing could be fitness or energy drinks, right? Supplements. And maybe the third one is biohacking or sleep wellness. Something else that interests you. Right now, write down seven to 10 brands that you use in each of those categories. Mm-Hmm, . Great. Now slide into each of those brands, dms and say, Hey, brand, I have a great collaboration idea. Who’d be the best marketing contact at your company for me to reach out to? Nine times outta 10, by the way, they’re gonna write you back because that’s what the person on the receiving end of that Instagram is there to do. They’re, they’re either a digital marketing intern or they at a small company. It could be their, you know, head of marketing. They’re there to, this is the way, the way of the world. They’re there to do partnerships. They wanna hear what you have to say. So when people come to me and they say, I don’t even know where I would start, how would I even do that? What would I even say? It’s that simple. I just gave you an idea. You have 30 brands now on a piece of paper. Reach out to them, start the conversation and start somewhere. RV (19:03): And you just go. And I think, thank you, Jamie, because that’s super powerful. This is very similar to how we teach keynote speakers, right? So people, people see me speak on these huge, you know, last week I was in front of 5,000 people at Keller Williams and they’re like, oh, that’s amazing how you do that. I’m like, I researched the company, created a spreadsheet, we reached out to them, we sent them emails, we bugged them, we built a relationship. And five years later they’re like, we should have you at our event. Like it’s, it, it, it’s, it is this, but there’s this intimidation factor, I think, right? Specifically. It’s funny ’cause it’s like, you know, like I’ve got my like this is one. So, so my, my son while we were talking, which is amazing made me a cava smoothie. I dunno if you’ve ever heard of the brand Cava, but like, I drink cava like almost every day, like, literally almost every day. RV (19:54): But I think a lot of people go, well, one, it’s intimidating to approach a brand of like they’re, they’re, they’re a big brand, right? You know, like McDonald’s, like they’re not gonna talk to me, they’re talking to LeBron James. Like, and, and then that’s the other thing. So one is it’s intimidating to go approach a brand. And then the other one is I think the like imposter syndrome of like, I’ve got 5,000 followers, or I’ve got y you know, 7,000 followers. Like, they don’t care about me. So like, talk to us about, I know one of the things in your bio is like a mental, like you, you talk about like being a mindset coach. ’cause I, this has to be a huge part of it is just like getting past the emotional barrier of like those two things. JH (20:39): Well, the reality is I’m 90% of mindset coach because the rest of this, I, I know people don’t wanna hear it, but it actually ain’t rocket science. Okay? Like it is, it is elbow grease. It’s rolling up your sleeves and writing some emails and sending some emails and figuring out what your like core competencies are. What are the deliverables I’d be willing to do? Maybe it’s an Instagram post. Maybe you’re, you know, an expert. You can lend, you know, your whatever, whatever is your thing. You write it up and you send some emails. But it is a mindset shift. Mm-Hmm. Now what I want people to understand are two things. That’s good. Number one, people need to understand this. It’s all about, this is a sales conversation, but it’s about showing up in the spirit of service. It’s not about like having a pick me attitude. JH (21:21): Oh, I don’t, I don’t know if they’d want me. I don’t know why would they want me, they could hire anybody. What about what you have to bring to the table? And like, they either want it or they don’t. And by the way, if they don’t, no hard feelings, it might just not align with their marketing priorities. It’s like not that deep and not that personal, right? Like these, this, at the end of the day, it’s business, but you have something to offer. You have a special skillset. I don’t care if your audience is 5,000, there’s 5,000 active people on the other side of that screen waiting to hear what you’re waiting to pick up what you’re putting down. So that’s number one. Number two, in every round, almost every round of my brand Ninja coaching cohort I have influencer marketing experts that take my course almost every time because they just wanna hear from the other side. JH (22:05): They wanna like, they wanna get it and they wanna hear how I pitch ’cause they know it’s a little bit different or unique or they’ve worked with me before and they’re like, you do it different. I’d love to like hear your special sauce. So we could better work with influencers from our side of things. Every single time somebody stops me at some point in my talk and says, Hey Jamie, can I just jump in and say to the group, what we are seeing in, in our businesses is we are spending so much more money in the mid-tier and micro influencer categories every single time. Hmm. Someone makes sure to mention it because they want people to not think, oh, I don’t wanna have a million followers. I’m not worthy. And what I can tell you this is true as well, having represented brands like McDonald’s, this is a good example. JH (22:49): So say that we’re McDonald’s, right? And we hire like a big celebrity mom to, to represent then something new coming out with a Happy meal. By and large, the comments underneath her post. So we’ve engaged her to do a post and she posted about the thing and the Happy Meal and the kids, there’s gonna be so many trolls and haters out there saying, you feed your kids McDonald’s and judging her, and then all suddenly it gets into like a vaccine conversation. All of this stuff that you’re like, I did not sign up for that. I was just trying to show people that we have minions and a happy meal. You know, like, mm-Hmm, , where did this just take a left turn? You could really have like a rogue, it’s like the wild West with celebrities and it can really go wrong and you can spend a lot of money on something that can yield you. JH (23:31): Nothing or worse yet can have a negative impact with a mid-tier or even micro influencer. You have a lot more creative control. These are people who are willing to work with you more, who are willing to really massage the nuances of the messaging. And so brands increasingly are really wanting to work with mid-tier and micro influencers and people who just have a more engaged audience who aren’t looking at something like that as, ugh, it’s a commercial moving on. They’re really listening because that’s that elusive third party endorsement. So don’t underestimate the power you have as a smaller influencer. RV (24:05): Yeah, that’s a good point about like, you know, like I follow the Rock and I probably see like one out of every 25 posts and I’ll kind of quickly glance at something and usually it’s like, it’s like, oh, here’s an, he’s doing an ad for something and I move on. There’s a few creators that are like in my space where it’s like I go back and watch every video that they have posted because I’ve learned from them. And it’s like, if one of them were to say something, it’s like I would see it and I would pay attention to it. Like that, that, that makes sense to me. The audiences are super engaged. And it’s not, it’s also not such a mass audience of a bunch of people from all different demographics. It’s like the, the, to me, the niche influencer makes so much sense because it’s like this creator has a small audience, but a small audience of our perfect customer. So then you, you when you say, just to give a a sense, what, what would you classify as mid-tier and micro influencer? JH (25:13): The older, like benchmark is 10 thou, like, once you’re kind of over 10,000, you’re like, you know, a micro influencer. And that used to have a little more to do with like, the functionality of the app. Instagram specifically, you would get the swipe up feature, which is now a, a a sticker. Everything changes so quickly with the algorithm and the app that I would say, when you’re around the 10,000 mark you, your, technically you have your, you get your influencer, you know, badge, Uhhuh . But I am telling you right now, so Brand Ninja I literally created, I’ll tell you why I created it, I’ll tell you the story. So here I am standing in a room of my contemporaries other speakers and we are just chatting about workshopping different ways to essentially generate revenue. And I was citing a case study of something I had recently done where I launched my new podcast, which is called the Gratitude Ology podcast. JH (26:07): That is one of my topics I speak about on stage. So this directly kind of ladders into what I speak about on stage. So I created this podcast to support that message. Now, the podcast I wanted to do in person everything. I, I had done a podcast for four years. Virtually I was bored. I wanted to go talk to people. ’cause It’s like I do a lot of celebrities and it’s like, what’s the point if you’re not gonna go sit with them? And I, I wanted to fly out and, and sit with them, which is expensive. So I took a look at my budget for my first quarter of, of guests I was gonna be interviewing and it was gonna cost me about $40,000. And I was like, okay, I gotta raise $50,000 working capital to get this thing off the ground. So I turned around and I sold it to five brands for $10,000 each. JH (26:44): And I put together a little package to get these brands, essentially product placement, to get this show on the road. So I shared that in this room full of keynote speakers. And everybody’s like, I’m sorry, you did what? Like, what do you mean you just turned around and sold $50,000 of brand sponsorships? Like, that’s crazy. Like, how would you do that? Because keep in mind, Rory, like I had no, there was no, oh, well what’s your number of downloads? The podcast didn’t exist yet. Mm-Hmm. . I was getting the podcast off the ground. So I was selling a dream. I was selling a story. I was selling, this podcast is about gratitude and this world has never been a scarier place to live. I just wanna help people wake up a little bit more grateful, a little less anxious. Do you wanna be a hero of that journey with me? JH (27:29): Let me tell you how I’m gonna do it. And I brought these five brands on the road with me and I, I brought them onto set with each of these interviews, and I did a moment of discovery and education with each of my guests and we videoed it. And I have a whole framework of how I do that. But I realized that all of these people sitting in this room with me, who they might not have a huge following, some of them do, but some of them have 5, 6, 7, 8,000 followers. But they’re ballers, right? They’re experts, they’re leaders in creativity and innovation. They have books. But, but they’re bootstrapping their own podcasts and their own book tours. And I said, why? I guarantee you there is a brand that gets it there. Not every brand, right? Because you may, maybe you have five, six, 7,000 followers, maybe not McDonald’s, but there is a brand out there that will understand the value that you bring and they wanna be a part of your journey. And I said, I can teach these people how to do this. And that’s literally why I created Brand Ninja for people that were in that pocket. So either they have a smaller following, but they’ve got something going on that’s marketable or have a big bigger following and they just haven’t figured out how to monetize it yet. RV (28:37): Hmm. Yeah. And so you, you basically, you’re just approaching these people and it’s just a sales conversation. Who, who’s the, what are the job titles of the people you’re trying to get to? Would you say JH (28:47): Such a great question. I literally have a whole couple slides on that in like my curriculum, because it’s such a great question. People are like, who would I even be talking to? So it can be people on a marketing team. They could have titles like at a smaller company, you know, CMO, marketing director, marketing manager, and obviously at a bigger company you’re gonna be talking to somebody with the title social media director, digital director, influencer marketing lead talent manager. I mean, they, you know, and I show, I show a bunch of different LinkedIn headers, which gives some of the examples, like, you might not think it, but like for instance, Anheuser Busch, their head of influencer relations, his title is I think it’s like Manager comma Talent, which you might be like, is he an hr? So it’s not always exactly evident right off the bat. JH (29:34): However, there’s other kind of nuances and keywords you can look for. At the end of the day, there are a lot of different ways to find these people. And I, I share a lot of them in my, in my curriculum, but I’m gonna give you that, that little like, you know like life hack, once again, if you are trying to pitch yourself on a platform like Instagram, like that’s where you want to do your content from, there is no harm in sliding into their dms from that platform because it gives them one less button they have to click, right? All they have to do is click on your profile and say, okay, I can look at this person. In this day and age. That’s what it’s there for, right? So it’s really actually very interesting how much you can get done on the native platform that you’re trying to pitch in. RV (30:15): Yeah. I love that. Well this has been awesome, Jamie. So, so helpful. And I think, you know, inspiring hopefully for people to see that just, it’s a process. It’s, it’s a, it’s a sale, it’s a pitch. There’s a value proposition for you and them, and you’re exchanging value together. And there’s always business to be just done in that way if you’re just confident and creative and and service centered about it. I, I think that’s super, super duper powerful. So obviously you’ve mentioned your Instagram. Is that the best place for people to go follow you and connect with you? JH (30:47): People can follow me at Jamie Hess, J-A-M-I-E-H-E-S-S. They can also, I was just making sure I had my thing right. They can also text the word ninja to 3 3 7, 7 7. And that’ll get you some information about my course, which is also [email protected]. And then for my keynote speaking and all things otherwise I am meet jamie hess.com. RV (31:08): Awesome. well thank you for the time. Thank you for the tips. Really, really powerful and inspiring. So y’all go check out Jamie, follow her, say hello. Let her know that you heard heard her on our podcast. And Jamie, wish you all the best. JH (31:24): Thank you, my friend.