AJV (00:00:02): Hey everybody. Welcome to the influential Personal Brand podcast, AJ Vaden here. Really excited to introduce you guys to Robin Robbins. And she and I are fairly new to knowing each other, but Robin has known my husband and my co-host Roy Vaden for a very long time. And he has been singing her praises for years. And so the fact that we get to have her on this show today is really exciting. And before we formally introduce her, I want you guys to know why you should stick around today. And I think one of the things that most of our audience says at some point is, how do you go from, you know, where I am today to that dream company, whether that be a seven figure, eight figure, or nine figure entity. And I think today, the really the goal is to explore what it takes. AJV (00:00:51): What are the hard decisions you have to make? What are the choices you have to decide on along the way to help you go from where you are to where you wanna be on this venture, right? This ad venture of entrepreneurship. And so Robin is coming on the show today. Let me tell you just a tiny little bit about her. She is the CEO at Technology Marketing Toolkit. And what they do is develop highly effective marketing and sales strategies, very specifically to MSPs and managed service providers, if you don’t know what that term is. But I think one of the things that’s so amazing is that she has built an incredibly successful business for a very niche audience. And it’s one of the reasons that I wanted her to come on today, is talk about how do you succeed with less, right? And in this case a less big audience, right? It is focusing in the specifics. And so, without further ado, Robin, welcome to the show. RR (00:01:52): Thank you, aj. I appreciate you so much. I know I’ve gotta have you and Rory come speak to my audience ’cause I’ve just, you know, it’s, I just, I know. So you, the value you guys bring to people is amazing. And yeah, so I’m, I’m as much a fan of you guys as I, you know, maybe you are me. I, I appreciate that. Oh, we’re super. You guys do incredible work. AJV (00:02:13): And I told I told Robin before we hit record that, you know, Rory has been like, listen, y’all got to meet each other. I feel like you have the same personality, you got the same hair color. You guys have so much going on. And so I’m really excited to introduce you to the show. And, you know, one of the things, I just wanna share this quick story because I think this is a really powerful component of what a lot of people struggle with listening or not. And I asked Robin right before we hit record, Hey, I didn’t get a call to action A CTA for the show notes. Is there any sort of call to action that you want me to give? And she was bold enough to say, well, you know what? Not really. I don’t think a lot of your audience are managed service providers. And if you’re not an MSP, I don’t really want you don’t, don’t RR (00:03:00): Clutter out. It sounds really hurtful when you say it that way. , don’t AJV (00:03:03): Clutter out my lead magnets. You know, but here’s, here’s why. I think that’s a really important story to tell. That is not what most people say. I have never once in the history of this show, which has now been running for six years with consistent two episodes every week, have anyone said, no, I don’t have a CTA for. And I think that’s significant because you have extreme clarity. Extreme clarity on who your avatar is, right? Yeah. And so let’s just start there for a second. ’cause I know most likely you didn’t start that way on day one, right? Right. And so what was the process? And you know, and this is, you know, for everyone listening, this is a conversation and entrepreneurship. But also Robin Robbins and her team who I know several people at her team really enjoy. Everyone I’ve met at her team, but they are really some of the best people in the world at doing what they do. And they do it for a whole bunch of people in a really specific and niche way. But also I think that in addition to entrepreneurship, for everyone who’s listening, it’s really clarity and courage is, I think, a part of like, the theme of this. And so how did you, over the course of what, 20 years now, determine that this micro niche audience is the one that you wanted to serve? How did that come about? RR (00:04:23): Yeah, I think, well, let me kind of go all the way back to how I even start in business. ’cause I always describe myself as a very unlikely, uneducated, and reluctant entrepreneur. You know, I didn’t start this going, I’m gonna build, you know, we’re, we’re probably gonna land somewhere around 44, 40 5 million this year. I never in a million years thought I’d have that going on with, you know, 130, 140. I, I lose track how many employees were, we’re hiring more. I, I walked into the lunch true store. I walked into the lunchroom, and we have two offices. And I, there was like someone standing there and I’m like, hi, who are you? Right? like two people. I mean, I knew what one who one was, there’s like two hires. I don’t even know their names. It’s so embarrassing. It’s terrible. I came home, I was so just, oh, I just wanted to die. RR (00:05:10): But so . But I started out, I got fired from a job, and it was in right after nine 11 happened. I was in sales. I got fired from the job because I refused to sign a contract they wanted me to sign. I was working there for about a year, and they made it contingent on, on getting a bonus that I had earned. And I took it to an attorney and he advised me, he is like, I wouldn’t sign this. You know, he’s like, I, I, this is crazy. So I didn’t, I got fired. And so I had to replace that income pretty quick. And things were a little weird after nine 11, if you remember. I don’t know if we were in a recession or what, you know, but it wasn’t like, like a booming economy, right? So I started just, I’ve always been good in sales. RR (00:05:52): I’ve learned sales from, from early on. So I just started reaching out to people saying, Hey, I’m independent. started my own thing. And wanna know if you are you know, looking for somebody who’s really good at marketing sales. Like, I, I was very good at writing copy. I, I learned copywriting mostly from Dan Kennedy, but I’ve studied copywriting. So I knew how to write copy. And I knew digital marketing pretty well back then. Digital marketing was like overture. ’cause Google wasn’t even invented yet in email marketing. I was really good at that. So I just started reaching out and I started getting a couple side hustles here, there, a couple people said yes. But I was still actively looking for a job. And then somewhere around, I don’t know, maybe three, four months in, I had enough money coming in that I thought, you know, I might be able to make this work. RR (00:06:44): So I continued to look for a job. And but I started just like doing this consulting thing. And I didn’t know what it was. I just, you know, I didn’t, like, I had a website. I had to barter for a website. I didn’t have enough money to buy a website. So I bartered with, there was a web design company and I said, Hey, I’ll, they needed help, I think with like, some copywriting. And I said, Hey, I’ll, I’ll write copy if you’ll do my design, my website. So that was a barter, right? So, you know, I just started out like this. And then at that point when I said, I, I think I could do this, you know, my client base consisted of a shipping company, an MRI imaging center. I had a computer training school. I had a self test software, like a test prep software company. RR (00:07:30): I had, who else? Goodness. It’s like, it’s all over the map. You know, there was, oh, I had a Bijan who was a spiritual advisor, right? You know, I mean, it was like this eclectic, anybody who could fog a mirror, wave a dollar, I wanted you , right? I mean, it was like, well, I was just, I had their breathing. They were good. Yeah. And that’s okay. ’cause I think everybody starts there. You’re very, you’re very scrappy when you start, right? And it’s a good thing that you’re scrappy, that’s how you get things done. But at some point, you gotta stop being scrappy and you gotta start being strategic because otherwise you’re just gonna end up with a scrap heap. Okay? So I started like thinking, okay, if I’m going to do this, who specifically do I want as my customer? And I started like thinking about niching either in like a, a, a, a service. RR (00:08:17): Like for example, I tested doing digital pay per click lead generation and getting paid by the lead and, you know, across different, so that was like a specialization, not in a, not in a avatar customer, but a in a thing, right? And and then I started to test in different industries and stuff. And so one of the big breakthroughs that I had is there was a company, I had an association with company called CompTIA. And I learned strategic partnerships or JV partnerships from J Abraham. So that’s, I started reaching out to, to people who had big lists and saying, Hey, I’m really good lead generation marketing. I mean, mean, my pitch was a little better than this, but saying I’m really good. How about I do a free webinar for your audience on marketing lead generation? And CompTIA was one of the companies that said yes. RR (00:09:03): And I poured my heart soul into that and made it the best web. Well, it wasn’t even a webinar, it was a teleseminar. ’cause This is, you know, , I mean, we forget, you know, wasn’t that long ago. So I did this teleseminar. It worked out really great. And I used that to leverage to say, well, why don’t you hire me to do a series of four year members on lead generation marketing? And they agreed. So I sold them to pay me $5,000 a month to do this teleseminar. And then I spoke at their event. And what that started to do is that got me into the vertical I’m in today. Now, you know, MSPs, it’s funny ’cause people go like, what’s an Ms PI got yelled at on Facebook? Oh, surprise, surprise. Right? Because I had an ad that said MSPs used MSPs in the, in the word. And someone wrote below, like, you shouldn’t use acronyms in marketing, dummy, if you’re trying to get people, you know, you can’t use acronyms. And I’m like, and I wrote back, I said, if you don’t know what an MSP is, I don’t want you like go away. That’s exactly what’s supposed to happen. Not a AJV (00:09:56): Prospect. Yeah, RR (00:09:57): Yeah, yeah. And, and stop comment commenting on my ad. ’cause You’re gonna get, you’re gonna just drive reaction to stupid people. ’cause You know what I mean? , the, the engagements, like, you know what I mean? The engagements beget more, right? So, you know, I, I get come to do this. I start getting some customers, at the time they were called more var, value added reseller. I, they’re, they’re basically companies that sell outsourced IT services and support. And they love acronyms in this industry. So MSP is a relatively new term. And I started getting those customers two, then three, then four, then five from this paid engagement that I had done. Which by the way, isn’t a lesson of itself. Like, I really know how to do strategic partnerships extremely well. And if you can leverage into finding a way to support somebody else’s agenda of what they’re doing or solve a need for them, associations need engagement. RR (00:10:50): I can provide a lot of engagement because people are very interested in sales and marketing. They were paying me to do this. So, so that’s how I got into this vertical. And there was a point, and that this is a true story. So I made a decision. I said, this is it. This is my industry. I’m gonna double down on it. I’m gonna go all in. And it took me, you know, that was like a, I got laid off like January of two, of two of 2002. And by the end of that year, I had incorporated technology marketing toolkit. And the reason for the name is technology marketing. I wanted that keyword at the time. Having keywords in your URL was like a big deal. And technology marketing was already taken. So I just slapped on toolkit and called it a day. So that’s the science behind the name. So anyway, so I, I, you know, I get started here and I started to fire my other customers and say, look, I’m, I can’t do this anymore. I gotta have all my effort and energy on this particular vertical. AJV (00:11:43): Can we pause right there for a second? RR (00:11:45): Yeah. AJV (00:11:46): Most people don’t do that. Yeah. AJV (00:11:48): At all. And I think it would be really helpful to understand, like, one, like what is it about you or the understanding, I think a lot of, you’ve already said it’s, it’s, you gotta go from scrappy to strategic. You did that pretty quickly. Mm-Hmm. . However, most people still struggle today with letting go of the customers that they know they shouldn’t be working with because there’s some scarcity, right? So what would be some tips or advice for the person who has a split audience of these are the people I really wanna be working with. These are the people I know I should let go, but I’m not. RR (00:12:21): Yeah, I mean, it’s a mindset. So it is like, is this true story? Like I still wasn’t making a lot of money. I was still teaching fitness classes. I used to teach aerobics classes two, three times a day to pay the rent while I was trying to get the thing going. Right? Best shape of my life had shin splints that were from hell. But, you know I’m serious. It was like it, this, it was real. I mean, this is real story I’m not making up. And you know, I had, I had somebody who, you know, I talked to and they wanted to hire me as a consultant, weren’t an MSP. And I said, I’m sorry, I’m just not taking anybody who’s not an MSP at this time. And they said, oh, you are so full of it. You know? And they mailed me the check. RR (00:12:58): Anyway, so I, I mean, here I am, I’m barely making the rent. And I get a check. I’ll never forget, it was for $795. That’s what I was charging, like, on a monthly basis, right? And they mailed me this check, and I look at this check and I think, oh, you know, I could just go another month or whatever. And I was like, Nope. I, I put it back in the envelope, I mailed it back to the person and I said, sorry, I’m not taking you. And that’s a true story. And it wasn’t like I had a mentor or coach. I don’t know. I would, I’ve been in sales and I just know your company, the, the health, the profitability, your whole company rides on the who, who is the customer. And if you have a disease, dysfunctional, broke bad, wrong fit customer, your business can never succeed. RR (00:13:52): Ever. Like, ever. And so, like, you know, like I had a friend and I won’t mention the name just because I don’t wanna make, you know, it’s not a bad story, I just don’t wanna make ’em feel bad. But they were getting started in information marketing, you know, trying to be a guru and whatnot. And in this, and it was an attorney. And she comes to me and she’s like, Hey, you know, I’m selling, I’ve been selling this course for like, you know, 1995, whatever, some real cheap price, right? I’m selling this and I’m really struggling to sell. I’m trying to send people dah, dah, dah. She’s gonna, I said, stop. I said, the cheapest thing I sell is $2,000. The problem you have is you’re, you’re, you’re, you’re wearing yourself out trying to make a $20 sale to somebody who feels like $20 is a lot of money. RR (00:14:39): And that’s why you’re having all these other problems in your business. Like, go upstream. And, and it was like a light bulb went on because so many people teach, oh, we’ll just have the tripwire product or offer a service or whatever. And I did that too. And it, and there is a place for it. But I think at the same time, like as I’ve grown my business, you know, now today we went from selling like an info product, you know, for $500, $700 to where we sell now, two year, three year memberships. The cheapest being $24,000 total. I mean, a thousand dollars a month, that’s the cheapest all the way up, you know, to, to double that. And, and we, we sign on two year contract and we don’t do a money back guarantee. So like, that’s unheard of. But every time I have stepped up and taken a like harder stance on who I take as a customer, the more the business has grown. RR (00:15:37): Love that. And it’s, it’s, it doesn’t make sense lot. Like you sit there and you go, well, if you offer cheap products, you think you’d get more people. If you had a money back guarantee, you’re gonna get more customers. And you’re right. But you get the wrong ones. You get the ones who aren’t serious, the ones that are just gonna buy it. And then we used to have an, a massive, maybe you’ve seen this selling information products. We used to have a mass refund issue right after Thanksgiving because everybody would be like looking around and they’re sofa for two nickels to buy Christmas presents. And they would look on the shelf and they’d see my product there and they’d go, oh, wait a minute. That’s a money back guarantee. And they would call us and say, I want my money back. It doesn’t work. Or some of ’em were honest and just said, I need money for Christmas presents. RR (00:16:17): Right? Or I haven’t opened a thing, I haven’t used it, so I just wanna return it. And so those are not the people I want is customers. Yeah. So there’s, I, there’s a balance there. You know, when you’re just starting, you don’t wanna make it too difficult to be your customer, but at the same time, you don’t wanna hold onto that strategy forever. What gets you started might not sustain you. And you really gotta take a look at who is my customer? And I’m in a vertical, but I’m also just trying to get the top 15, 10% of this industry. Because I know 80% of the 80% is the Pareto principle. 80% are gonna be worthless, useless broke. I mean, if you look at the stats, only only 4% of companies, all companies in America ever break the million dollar mark. Only 4%. So that means, for the most part, 96% are worthless to you. RR (00:17:09): Right? I’m talking businesses, and I don’t mean worthless as human beings. I mean worthless, like from a standpoint of getting a cash check out of ’em, right? Then, only 0.4% ever get beyond the $10 million mark. And so you start to really see, you are dealing in tiny, tiny percentages. And the question is, do you want like a hundred percent of the bottom or do you want just like a 10% of the top of the cream? And so now it takes time. ’cause You gotta build a reputation. You gotta build a brand, which is what you guys teach a hundred percent. Everything you guys teach is, is spot on. I think what we’re talking about here is an emotional strength. Mm-Hmm. . ’cause People get scared. They go like, I’ll, I’ll tell you one other story. True story client. I’m talking about niching. ’cause I do teach this in my, to my clients. RR (00:17:58): I’m like, you gotta have a target customer profile, and you’ve got to make sure you don’t get shiny penny syndrome, where everybody comes at you like, oh, there’s a dollar over here. Oh, there’s $5 over here. Oh, there’s, because you start to water down and you’re not for somebody specifically. So I’m teaching this to an audience and this cute little couple come up, they’re a little, you know, married couple running an MSP probably under a million dollars in revenue, pretty small, nice, sweet people. And they say, Robin, you know, they come to me on break. And they’re like, intellectually, we know what you’re saying is true and right and correct, but we’re just scared because we’re trying to, you know, we’re, we’re barely making it as it is. And if we pick a particular customer, if we niche, then we’re gonna stop people from doing business with us. RR (00:18:46): And I said, okay, well, tell me a little bit about what’s been going on in the, in your business. It was like, this was a, in the fall of last year. And so it was like, you know, I said, tell me like this year, how many new, tell me about the lead flow. Where are you getting customers? And they kind of like, get this really sheepish look on their face and they look at each other and they go, well, we haven’t gotten any customers. And I say, well, who the hell are you trying to keep out then? Who cares? Like, you know, you can’t get worse, right? And they kind of laughed and they, and they realize, I’m like, you’ll find that you actually get more customers when you’re for somebody, specifically when I can say, here’s who my customer is, specifically from a demographic and a psychographic position. RR (00:19:26): I know you teach both of those things, right? So I don’t have to explain that to these people. But you know, when you really know, like one of the things that’s really important for me is I gotta have customers that have true, honest ambition. If they don’t have honest ambition to grow, to make more money, to serve more, to build enterprise value in their business, not just make more money. They are not of any use to me because I can’t scale that customer. They’re, they, I can make a quick buck on ’em, but I can’t build an asset. I can’t build enterprise value of my company if I get the wrong customer. AJV (00:20:01): You know? I love that. And it’s so interesting because we have this conversation often with our community as well at Brand Builders group. And I was actually on a call yesterday and I literally had this exact same conversation and I just asked this individual, who is your ideal speaking client? Like, if you were to tell me the perfect audience, who would it be? And she was like, well, women, any woman. And then she said, well, no, wait it could be women or you know what, just salespeople, anyone in sales. And then she was like, but you know, really it’s just anyone who believes in mental health. And I’m like, women in sales who believe in mental, no, no, no. Anyone like that. And I was like, so where do you find those people? And she was like, that’s just it. It’s, it’s anyone. AJV (00:20:47): It’s, it’s everyone. And it was like this aha moment. And I’m like, okay, . Well, how, how am I supposed to help you? If it’s anyone? Because if it’s anyone, then I can’t think of anyone because I, my brain doesn’t work that way. My brain needs to it to be narrowed down and specific so I can actually know what you do, who you do it for, and then maybe I could talk to you. And, and I think it’s a lot of those things that I, a lot of people that we run into it have very similar conversations. I’m sure you do with your clients of going, well, I could do this for anyone, anyone who has a business I could help. RR (00:21:25): And you can’t. Right? I was, I’m looking right now, there’s a, there’s another little story and I wanna, ’cause I wanna get the numbers right. But yeah, so I had a client that she calls me up very, very excited runs an MSP that’s in New York City now, a couple years ago, their New York state implemented a law that’s called the SHIELD Act. And the SHIELD Act is a legal requirement for businesses to protect data that they have from cyber crime, ransomware, et cetera. So what, you know, for example, you have to have good backups. You have to have proper cybersecurity protocols in place. And she, she’s her and her husband super excited. A lot of my, a lot of my it sounds like I have all women for customers, but I really don’t. But she’s like super excited and she’s like, Robin, we gotta create a campaign. RR (00:22:16): And I said, okay, great. Who are we targeting? And she goes, well, all small businesses in New York City or New York State, really? I said, okay, well you are kind of right outside New York. Can you service people outside of your geographic area? Well, maybe, but not really. So maybe if we just said New York City, I said, okay, well how many small businesses are in the New York City metropolitan area? And she said, that’s why I wanted to look. I did a search in her geographic area where she was, if I just went like a 45 minute to an hour drive from her location, there were 22,000 businesses in her in that area. And I said, okay, so what’s your budget to market to these 22,000? And she says, well, we might be able to swing a thousand bucks . And I laughed. And I said yeah, you can’t even, like, that’s a fart in a windstorm, darling. RR (00:23:15): No one’s gonna know you did it. But you, if that’s all you’re spending to get to 22,000, you gotta narrow this down because you can’t boil the ocean. Yeah. You know, it’s like a term, you can’t boil the ocean. So like, we gotta have, the other part you have to think about is you, I think Seth Godin uses this term is the smallest viable audience. And what that means is, you know, what’s an audience that you could legitimately serve that are the lowest hanging fruit, the highest probability, the, the, the right fit? And it’s gonna be small. And as your business grows and you have more people who can, who can you can sell to as you have more resources and finances and stuff like that, you know, you can, you can expand that. Now, like with us, we haven’t really expanded our niche. RR (00:24:04): My niche is only MSPs in North America or English speaking countries like Canada, the UK and Australia. Now, do we have clients everywhere else? Yes, we do. But they find us and they buy, but we don’t pursue them. So really our list is only about, there’s only about 27,000. I think I just looked at this number. It’s like 27,000, 28,000 total in my universe. Total. That’s not a very big universe, right? And so again, people say to me, well, you know, how do you grow this business if you narrow it down so much is because you’re hyper-specific, because your services that you have price elasticity, meaning you can charge more when you specialize. It’s easier to find people, it’s easier to get referrals, it’s easier to get strategic partners. Because when you really know, here’s who my people are and where they go, you just put a hundred percent of your efforts there and you get exponential returns versus just spreading it out wide and thin and hoping you hit the right person. AJV (00:25:02): You know, like one of the things that you just said that I think is really valuable is, you know, your name comes up in various conversations, just anyone we’re talking about memberships, technology, recurring revenue comes up in those spaces, which is where we live. And I think one of the things that, and what enables you to do when you decide like, this is my niche audience. I don’t need tens of thousands, like 20, 27,000 is what you said, right? Most people listening to this couldn’t serve 27,000 people if they wanted to. Most couldn’t serve a thousand if they wanted to. Most people are trying to serve dozens, maybe hundreds, but definitely not even in the thousands. But we’re trying to reach millions for some reason when we’re only trying to really serve dozens or hundreds. But what I heard you saying is that when you go super niche, you start to start to know everyone in the industry, right? And it’s like, and you start to become known in the industry because it’s a smaller community, which is thus makes it easier for you to do what you do really well and become known. Sure. Was that, is that fair? RR (00:26:08): Yeah. No, I mean, we have so active members. So we have clients and then we have members that are members of a peer group or a membership. We’re just, just, we’ll cross the 1500 mark of, so 1,500 people who are in a membership active customers. Our, our industry has gone over under massive m and a, right? So two trends that are going on a lot of mergers and acquisitions, we lose our best customers ’cause they get bought UN unfortunately I say unfortunately for us, I mean, I’m very happy for them, but they get bought and so they go away as a customer ’cause they just sold their business, right? So m and a and then there’s been a cropping up of a lot of newbies and they fail very quickly because this industry that we’re in has gotten more difficult to be, it’s more difficult to be an MSP today than it was 10 years ago. RR (00:26:56): Without a doubt. It costs more money, it’s more difficult to get customers, everything else. So, you know, we have about 1500 members in peer groups, which is the largest peer group in our industry. And we also, we have about, I’d say about 6,000 active clients and that have bought a program, have come to a seminar, have, have done something like that. So that’s not a lot like you think, I mean, the core of our revenue is coming from 1500 MSPs. Then we also do sponsorship, which kind of lays on top of that. So we’ll do about 10 million of our revenue this year. Nine 10 million is gonna be in sponsorship dollars for events that we, that we run. And there’s probably a list, our core sponsors, there’s about a hundred 150 core sponsors. And then we’re always kind of you know, leveraging like always trying to find new ones. RR (00:27:47): But, you know, that’s not, you know, that’s not massive. That’s not a massive list. That’s not a massive number of customers. It’s about just being very strategic and smart with what you’re offering. And again, like, so if you’re a guru, so think about it this way too. You know, you’re only gonna get a very tiny percentage of an audience to buy because most people are not interested in growing, making more money. I, I mean they’re just not like the nature of what we do, which is selling advice. There’s it, you, you are wired like you, you know, AJ you, me, everybody listening, you guys are wired differently ’cause you’re on this. Just the fact that you’re listening to this tells me a lot about you. That you’re ambitious, that you wanna grow, you wanna make more money that excites you. That does not excite the majority of people. RR (00:28:37): I mean, like, I, I listen to my, my, my salespeople make calls. I listen to their calls and they had this guy on. He’s like, I don’t know. He is under a million dollars in revenue. He is not setting the world on fire. And we’re like, Hey, we can, we got a program that can that is, that we can guarantee we’ll help you increase your sales, your profitability, get better customers. Indoor. It’s not like guesswork. We’ve been doing this for two decades. We’ve refined it, perfected it. I mean like it works. He’s like, you know, I’m good . He said, he’s like, I got a couple customers and I feel blessed and I I’m good. And like, so there’s a lot of, you know, if you’re an advice giver, you gotta understand the percentage of people who are even gonna buy from you are so small. Hmm. And the more you try to water down your message to appeal to the bottom 80% who are never gonna buy. And if they do buy, it’s by accident. They don’t ascend. They don’t spend more money. Like you, you, they don’t even stay. Yeah, no, they, that’s what I’m saying. That you can’t develop them into good customers. And you, you change everything because you’re trying to appeal to too many. And by doing that, you water it down for the ones that you really, really, really want. AJV (00:29:47): I love that. I think this is like some of the most important strategic advice that anyone could hear at any stage of your business. Because I know everyone is tempted to this and you said it’s earlier, it’s like this is more of a, an emotional dilemma. A hundred percent that you got to battle and fight as the business owner, as the entrepreneur, or even as the salesperson, right? ’cause You can just get diluted at any level. At any stage. And that would be like, my next question for you is like, how have you kept this ability to stay so focused and so niche as you’ve grown where you’re not doing the sales calls anymore and you have all of these layers. Like how have you been able to pass this down? So the team that is now selling on behalf of the company is being just as integrous to the quality of the customer as you would be. RR (00:30:32): Well, you never, I mean that, see, you say it’s just as, as as it would be for me. You’re not, that’s not gonna happen. So part of the realization is, you know, when you start hiring people, now I this whole saying of, oh, I’ll hire people that are smarter than you. You know, and then just get outta, well, look, if, so there’s so, like my web designers are smarter than me when it comes to designing a website. I don’t even know how to do it. My, you know, my marketing team who runs all the, the tech that, that does the backend when we do webinars and all that, like, I don’t know how to do that. They’re smarter than me on that stuff, right? But like, you get sales and marketing people, like, it’s gonna be very, very rare. And I do have some people on my team that are as good or better than me in certain aspects of marketing, right? RR (00:31:22): But the vast majority are not. And that’s okay. ’cause They don’t need to be as good as you now. They have to have integrity. I mean, we have it painted on our wall. The North Star is the attraction, the development, the retention of raving fan customers, right? So that’s on our, that’s not some BS that we put on a motivational poster. We really believe it. We really, so everybody’s gotta be bought into that. They gotta be bought into excellence, no drama, hard work, teamwork, all those things. But the reality is, as you grow your business, not every single person is going to be as good as you. And if you don’t, if you can’t accept that, you’re not going to grow. Okay. So I was at a I’ll, I’ll tell you. So I was at a mastermind meeting with Joe Polish. You might, you know AJV (00:32:10): Yeah. Genius network. RR (00:32:11): Yeah. Yeah. I was actually, I get the claim to fame. I was the one who gave him the idea. I was the first member. Right? Oh, AJV (00:32:16): That’s awesome. . RR (00:32:17): Yeah. So anyway, so I was, it was, I don’t know if it was like, yeah, I don’t know if he called it Genius Network at the time, whatever. I was at a meeting where Joe, you know, and he had a guy, and I don’t remember the guy’s name. All I remember is he was the, he owned about a hundred franchise restaurants in like the, a Arizona area, right? And his, he was talking about what it takes to scale and grow. And he says, you know, and I’m gonna paraphrase what he said, but he says, you know, the problem is when you have one or two restaurants or three or four or five, he said, you’re still small enough where you can, you know, run over to the, the restaurant that has a plumbing leak and you can start putting towels on the floor or the bathroom’s not cleaned. RR (00:33:03): You can jump in there and get it cleaned. Or you can run behind the cash register and take care of that. Or you can. And he says, and that’s what drives you nuts, is the abil. You’re still small enough where you’re trying to keep your hand in everything. He said, when you get to a hundred franchises, you can’t, you cannot do that anymore. You have to depend on people. And you start running the business by the numbers. So you go, I remember I was saying, so I’m like, okay, so we only had like one sexual harassment lawsuit, so that’s good. ’cause That’s within the range. And we only food poison like five people. And that’s good. ’cause That’s within the acceptable, now I’m serious and everybody was laughing, but to us it would be horrible. Like you, like I are you kidding? That would tear. RR (00:33:42): Like, I don’t want that to happen to my employees. I don’t want that to my customers. But as you scale a company, if you, the bigger you get, the harder it is to re to maintain that same level of quality and integrity. Now you fight for it. You fight for it. You have, and the key to it though, and, and I’m telling you, I’ve just, it’s the key to it is the leaders you then hire, not the employees, but the leaders. Because the leader, you are the leader of your team right now. And you are the constraint. You know, a great leader frees up capacity for their people and their department and their co or their organization to expand. And what happens is, as you grow, and this has happened to me multiple times, someone who’s really good when you’re 20 million is no longer good when you’re 40 million it or somebody good when you’re at a million is no longer a good, when you’re at 2 million, you have doubled the size of your org. RR (00:34:36): And what happens is we have good people, and sometimes we feel very loyal to them. But there’s a thing called the pita principle. And you, you’ve, you, your org outgrows their capacity or their pro their their pro. You try to promote ’em. But they’re, yeah, they’re, it’s beyond their skillset, right? They, you know, and, and so some people can grow with you and others can’t. Now if they’re good people, you retain them, but you put ’em in different seats if you can, right? Because great people are very hard to come by. And you want that, that loyalty is important. But I think also to grow an organization, the only way you’re going to do it is by hiring great leaders who lead your sales team, who lead your marketing efforts, who lead your operations, who lead your financial ser the financial services, the person who you know, leads hr. RR (00:35:26): Like, that is the only way you grow. And as you grow, unfortunately, you’re gonna have to swap out leaders because very, very, very few people can stay with you long term. Now, I have a couple like Jeff Johnson who works with me. Jeff’s president of the company. Jeff’s been with me forever. He has stepped up and scaled as we’ve grown the company. He’s matured, he’s grown. Nicole, she’s matured, she’s grown. She’s my COO. So there are, there, there are those people. So there, I’m not saying it’s impossible, but there are a lot of leaders I’ve hired that had that you just have to fire ’em because a bad leader in an organization can destroy your organization. So to grow, and this was a lesson that took me a long time to learn. ’cause I didn’t like hiring people. I don’t consider myself a great leader of people. RR (00:36:08): I’m a very good sales person. I’m a great copywriter. I’m a great marketer. I great at strategy, but hiring leaders and running an org is a different skill. And I’m aware of my shortcoming. So I have to hire people that are great at those things because, and then step back, not step away because I’m still very involved. I’m still watching what’s going on. I’m looking at the numbers I’m looking at. I see there’s this, oh, well you hire someone, you abdicate No, no, no, no, no, no. Yeah. You micromanage until they, you, you’re riding lockstep with them for months, a year before you can really start to step away. And they have earned your trust that, see, this is like, that’s another, you can’t just hire someone and look the other way and say, give ’em the two part training of good luck and hang in there. RR (00:36:55): It doesn’t happen. You know, because then you, next thing you know, the whole department’s blowing up and you look and you go, what the hell? We’ve drifted so far from our vision, from our core values, from our like, and now you got, now you got real collateral damage. And that’s happened to me on several occasions. So I’ve learned it. And if you’re gonna grow an org yeah, you, you, well, you have to decide that you want to grow. And then it’s about hiring those leaders on the team that will grow those divisions for you. AJV (00:37:23): No, I love that. You know, as you were talking, I was at, I was at a recent mastermind trading, and Craig Rochelle was one of the speakers. And you know, he’s a, he’s an author, but is, you know, he’s the lead pastor at Life Church, which is now like the largest multi-campus church in the world, I believe. And like, one of the things that he said is he said, you can have control or you can have growth, you cannot have both. Right? And it’s like, there is a part of this and it’s just what you just said, it’s like you never expect that they will do it as good as you or like you, they can be better than you in some areas and you’re better than them in some areas. But this whole idea of you’re gonna be the one doing all the interviews and all the things he is like, you can do that and not grow. RR (00:38:07): That’s, well, I mean, I think you can still have control. I mean that’s, I would disagree. I I know what he’s saying. His intention is if, like, if I wanna grow the sales department, I have to hire a sales leader who can recruit on, design the onboarding, do the training, do the daily coaching, do the looking at the list, do the day-to-day stuff to run that org. I cannot do that and be CEO That’s two different, it’s two more than full-time jobs. I can’t do both. So from that per that perspective, that kind of control, yes, you have to give up the work of doing these things, but you should still have some control and maintain and insights into what’s going on. You gotta maintain control from the standpoint of the strategy. Mm-Hmm. You know, ’cause someone said to me the other day, they’re like, well, are you that kind of person where you know, you, you know, you, where you, you don’t let, you don’t let anyone do anything outside of the ideas that you have. RR (00:39:03): And I said, well, well, no, I’m open to new ideas, but I believe in you imitate before you innovate. Mm-Hmm. , weve got something that’s working. I want you to pick the ball up and get it, keep it going so I can step away. That’s step one. And then I wanna see you grow it. But I think you know it. But saying like, I gotta know what they’re doing. Mm-Hmm. , right? I like, if I ha like, and this happened to me years and years ago. I hired a salesperson and, and, and I’m, I’m telling him, I’m like, Hey here’s the training, here’s the process. You know, and I, but I didn’t really monitor what was going on. And three months later, sales are in the toilet. I’ve got angry phone calls coming. I’m like, what is going on? And I look at what he was doing. RR (00:39:45): He was like emailing people. He is making these promises that there was no, they, they were like unethical. ’cause They’re not things that we provide and could get us in legal trouble. So it, so I, my my mistake is I let too much control Mm-Hmm. . So I don’t, I still think you have to maintain a, a visual, you gotta know what’s going on. What you let up is the doing of the phone calls, the doing of the work, but with oversight. And it takes a long time for you to really be able to trust somebody and say, go do it. Right? Even then, I still wanna know, kind of tell me what you’re doing where, ’cause I still wanna know what’s going on. It is your responsibility as leader and CEO to know what’s going on in your org. You can’t hear every conversation. RR (00:40:32): You can’t do every job. I get that. But you still need to maintain an understanding because somebody in your billing department could be doing something that could be destroying relationships, putting you in legal trouble churning customers. And it’s just because you’re not, you say, well, you don’t have control. Right? But you don’t have visuals on it. So I, I just wanna be really clear. There’s, I i, I get really crazy when people are just like, well no, you just hire smarter people than you and get outta their way’s. Not exactly how, you know. Yes, but not exactly like that. Yeah. AJV (00:41:07): I’m laughing because I now know, right? When Rory says, oh my gosh, y’all are like the same person. I now know why like . I’m like, I, I’m, I’m tickled inside because I’m like, oh yeah, now I know what he is talking about. Because I think there is so much of That’s true. You know, and I think one of the things that I just, I hope that you guys are listening who are listening, you what one of the things that you hear, and I, I must wanna reiterate this ’cause I wrote it down as a great reminder even for our team. It’s like you step back, you don’t step away, right? And I think that’s kind of summing up what you’re saying. It’s like you have to understand what are the things that you have to relent on and release that someone else can do with your oversight? And what do you always keep control over? And I think that was a really important thing. It’s like, I believe this is at least my opinion, regardless if you or even else Greece, it’s like, my job as a CEO is to set strategy. That is my, that’s my role. That’s not every CEO’s role, but for me, like, that is my gifting. RR (00:42:04): No, that is your job as ceo. Your job is to say, here’s who our customer is. Here’s what our services are, here’s what our brand promises, here’s what our core values are. Here’s how we’re gonna make money in this thing. Like you’ve gotta create your financial model. Here’s who we’re gonna have on the team. Here’s who we’re not gonna have on the team. And set standards and make sure those standards are met. So you think about like your children now, you know, it’s not exactly the same. ’cause Children kind of mature, you know, at, at, at an age. Employees mature faster, let’s say. But you know, like as your child grows, you wanna step back a little bit and let them learn to tire their shoes and let them learn how to cook something. Like, I’m like, I’m freaking out. Like my, the rule in my house with my girls, you know, and they’re old enough, they’re 10 and 14 is they’re not allowed to cook anything when we’re not there. RR (00:42:54): ‘Cause Sometimes like I’ll walk the dog, like I’ll leave them for a little bit. I’ll walk the dog down the street, come back. Right? No cooking of anything if my, if I’m not here, right. You know, so you, you step back and you give them, you have to give them freedom to grow and learn, but you don’t like, like not get involved in their lives. You know? I mean that’s like, you still have to maintain control. Who are they hanging out with? What are they eating? What are they reading? What are they watching on, on digital? Like if you don’t maintain control of the, of their phones. Mm-Hmm. , you’re gonna have a dis you know, dysfunctional child. So there’s this concept of control and it’s a bad thing and you’re a micromanager. It’s like, yeah, I’m gonna micromanage you until I can know that you know how to do it and do it well. RR (00:43:42): And I can trust you to make good decisions and trust that you know what to do. It’s not to say that they won’t make mistakes, it’s just a matter of like, it’s not fair to your team to throw ’em into the wild and expect them to somehow know how to produce a result with no leadership, no training. No guidance, no resources. No, you, I mean, it’s the biggest complaint I hear. We have marketing managers that come to us in our program or salespeople and they’re like, Hey Robin, can you help me out? I don’t, what do I do? And I’m like, well, what’s your job description? Like, what were you hired to do? No idea. So how are you measured? How do you know you’re doing a good job? No idea. I’m like, well, how do you get paid? And they’re like, you know, it’s like I’m serious. RR (00:44:25): Like they have someone hired ’em and they put, gave ’em like a stamp of saying, okay, you’re in marketing. Here’s Robin’s program. Go implement it. And it’s just, that’s not leadership. Mm-Hmm. . You know, and that’s what they’re like, well I hired a smart marketing person. They should be able to figure it out. That’s, no, that’s, that’s stupidity, right? You, you, you hire a smart marketing person, you work with them, you walk with them, you coach them, you make sure they understand the DNA of the company and your strategy and your customers and everything else. And then you slowly, like some people get it really quick and you can step back really quick. I have somebody I just hired, her name’s Kelly, and she is a badass woman. I love her. I’m like, but I’m still like, we’re still, we ride, we, we talk every day. RR (00:45:09): You know, we’re like, I don’t just like, I didn’t just abdicate say, okay, have a good day, you know, figure it out. Go out. She’s my, my chief revenue officer. But so, but it’s gonna take a year for her to really, I have to be with her. ’cause I know the history. I know where the bodies are buried. I know what we’ve tried in the past that worked in, didn’t work. And so even somebody who’s a very high protein, high level person still needs this CEO leader to be there and, and walk with them. Right? And I know I can step away very quick quickly ’cause I trust her. I think she’s got high integrity, she’s got a lot of experience. She’s grown things in the past. She’s bringing ideas and strategies I haven’t thought about. But even then I don’t just go, okay, well here’s your salary and go, go get it. I still have to mean a control over what’s going on in the org. AJV (00:45:53): Yeah. And I think that’s really insightful of even when you make the hire doesn’t mean the other person takes over. Like, you’re gonna be with them on that journey through the process. And I, I couldn’t agree more. And I think one of the things is like, these are like true lessons and, and high level entrepreneurship. This is a difference between six figures to seven figures, seven figures to eight figures, eight figures to nine figures is understanding the balance of some of these things. Now I’ve got one last quick question for you. And then our time is almost up. You’ve been doing, you’ve been doing this 20 years, right? Almost same avatar the whole time. Super similar business model. I know it’s changed and evolved a little bit over the course of time. As you look back over the last 20 years, if there was one lesson as an entrepreneur, as a business owner, as a leader, however you wanna, you know, title that if there was one lesson that you’re like, I don’t care if these listeners take away anything else, as long as you hear this, this is what I want you to hear as we’re wrapping up, RR (00:46:53): No pressure. Like, you know, just take the Bible and can you boil it down to a single tweet? ’cause Yeah, AJV (00:46:58): That’s it. You, RR (00:46:59): That’s, you know, eternal salvation if you know this one lesson. Yeah. , . RR (00:47:09): You know, I, it’s, it’s so hard ’cause there’s so many things that I would say I think, you know, looking back, I, I wish I had trusted my gut more and had more confidence in what I thought was right versus being afraid or scared of what people would say. ’cause My gut has never been wrong. What that sense you get about a person or a deal or something like that. I just wish I could go back and say, trust your gut. Stand your ground. You’re, you, you know, it’s, you’re doing the right thing. And I think also in that, from that kind of a, a branch to that is there’s very, very few mistakes you can’t recover from. So even when things look absolutely like the worst you get, you make a hire that just nearly destroys your company. I had a period in my life AJ, where I it was early on I had about seven employees and in a period of under a month, or I mean under a year, sorry. RR (00:48:16): I had like five or six of ’em turnover. I had to fire one, I had to fire a bunch of ’em. I, and I had two. One of ’em stole my client list and went to a competitor and there was a lawsuit. And then they, they sued me for defamation, which was just frivolous. It was just kind of a bargaining chip to get me to stop chasing them. I had another employee who left and and was trashing me and like, just flat out lies on social media. And I had, another one I found was stealing money from me. I found another one that I, it just on and on like that all goes on. I had a very, a high profile client go south on me as well. Where that, again, this was very weird. Like this was a very low integrity person in what they did. RR (00:49:02): I’ll just leave it at that. So I have this massive turnover. I have this very high profile client going south on me. I found out I had had melanoma all in one year. All in one. I found out I had melanoma. Which, you know, and then on the end of the tail of that, after I, ’cause that was when I decided I wanted to have kids. I wasn’t sure I wanted to have kids. And I said to my husband before I went into the surgery, if I come out and I’m okay. ’cause We were, they were concerned. It had metastasized. And I said, I wanna have a family. And like literally three months afterwards, I get pregnant. I have a miscarriage. This is all happening in like a nine, 10 month period. Right. and I was, that was like the lowest of low I’ve ever been. RR (00:49:49): And, you know, I wish I could go back and tell myself, girl, you got this. Like, all this is bad. But in the end it’s all gonna work out, I promise you. But I couldn’t see it at the time. And, you know, I have a renewed faith in God and I wish I could go back and tell myself, he is your savior and he will, he will protect you. ’cause He was there. I just didn’t see him. Sorry, get emotional. ’cause It’s like that important. But I, I think it’s, you know, for all of you, I think there’s nothing that’s going to happen that you make a mistake. Like, I hired the wrong people. I trusted the wrong client. I made some bad decisions. That’s, that’s what it was. I mean, all that happened was my fault. I mean, I even went in tanning bed. RR (00:50:33): So the me melanoma, who the hell knows it was my fault, right? So it was all like things I had done. But I think just to trust your gut and know that in the end, if you just keep doing the right thing, you work hard, you take care of people, you do what’s necessary, not what’s expedient, not what’s easy, not the shortcuts. If you keep it, it, it, it will all, it will work out. And just have that confidence. ’cause You’re gonna get beat up. You’re gonna get your butt handed to you multiple times. You’re gonna make all kinds of mistakes. You’re gonna get people who, who rip you off and it’s going to anger you. And I’m telling you it’s not worth it. Like to go, I’ll show them, I’ll sue them. And then you get embroiled in it. Like I’m telling you guys, like, it’s, I think the thing for me is just keep doing what you’re doing, doing the right thing and it will work out. But trust your gut more. ’cause There was, there were signs and I just ignored those signs about the people that I had in my life at the time. And I was kind of afraid to make, make a stance or I was afraid to fire them, or I was afraid to say, no, I’m not doing that. Or I was afraid to say what need to be said. And I think going back, I should have, I should have done that more and then had just had faith in, in, in God that it, it will work out. AJV (00:51:50): You know what? I bet you’re not afraid to do those things anymore, RR (00:51:54): . Well, no, I’m not. I mean, and, and, and you know, again, the thing I’m just afraid of now today is I just don’t wanna hurt people. I don’t, I’ve gotta be careful like, ’cause I’m in a position of power and authority with people. And the thing that I worry about now is making sure that I just remember that I can run people over pretty quick. ’cause My mind’s going so fast and I get, I get like, I got a lot going on and I can come across too short and I forget to say, Hey, how are you today, ? And I forget to just, I forget to say, Hey, thank you, you know, Hey, you did a great job there. I I, because we’re going at a million miles an hour. You kind of get focused on the whack-a-mole where you’re what’s on fire and what’s wrong and what’s broken. RR (00:52:34): And I gotta remind myself, you know, there’s people around me that I gotta just be a little kinder with a little. And it’s, I gotta be very hyper aware of it because that’s not the mode that I’m used to. And that’s really it. Other than that, if I, if you serve people, I don’t focus on competition. I’ve got a ton of it. I’ve got people who copy me. You’re all gonna have copy. You know, it’s, it’s all gonna be okay. , that’s, I, you know, I just, just keep doing the right thing. Get smarter. What, listen to what AJ and Rory are telling you. They’re telling you the right thing. Be around other people who are like them in spirit. And you know, for me, my faith has been super important. I think, you know, for me, you know, and I’ll, I’ll leave you with one other thing, aj. RR (00:53:16): I hope I’m probably telling you way more than you need. But, you know, one of the things I never, when I started my business, I never wanted to be an influencer. Like, I never wanted to be the one on stage the guru. Like, I, I did it because I saw it as a means to selling stuff, not as a means. Because I like to be on stage. I’m, and I mean this sincerely, if I was never on stage again, wouldn’t hurt my feelings. I don’t mind doing it. But it’s not like my favorite thing in the world, right? I just, I’m kind of neutral about it. In fact, I’d rather be behind the scenes than on stage if I had, if I had my, my preference, right? But, you know, so much of your business gets wrapped up in your ego because you go, well, hey, I don’t have a million followers on Instagram and YouTube and Facebook and all these things. RR (00:54:02): And we see these people who are doing amazing. I’m not taking away from ’em. I mean, they have these millions of views for a reason. They’re, they have incredible, incredible messages and stuff. And I’m not, I’m not, I don’t mean this in a jealous way. What I mean, it is, you can get caught up in that and feel like, you know, what, if I’m not relevant anymore, what am I gonna do if this thing doesn’t work out? Like, I’ve gotta be, I gotta be more popular. I gotta be get more likes. I gotta get more clicks. I gotta get more. I, if I don’t, I’m a failure. Right? And I started having those feelings quite a bit and it was, it made me nervous. ’cause I felt like the business kind of rose on that. Right? And, and again, I think my faith in God, just coming back to that is that is an earthly prize that, you know what? RR (00:54:46): I don’t need to get wrapped up in that. I just need to take care of people. I need to work hard. I need to do the right thing. And it’s okay if I’m not the most popular YouTuber or Facebook person or whatever, and not to get wrapped up in that too much. You know, because I, I can tell you this, I know a lot of very wealthy successful people that you all never heard of. Yeah. I mean, I know of billionaires and multimillionaires, none of you have ever heard of running an IT business, running a software company that you guys, if I said it, you would never know who the heck I’m talking about. Right? So it’s possible to run a great business without having all these fans, followers. Now I’m not, again, I’m not, please don’t misunderstand me. They’re important. Totally. AJV (00:55:30): I totally agree with you though. Okay. So RR (00:55:31): I’m just saying like for your spirit, I just don’t get too caught up where you feel like you’re failure if you’re not as popular. ’cause You look at my YouTube channel, you look at my Facebook, you’re like, I get like three people liking it. That’s it. AJV (00:55:42): I mean, I’m definitely not all that different. I mean, we run a personal brand strategy firm and I’m like, well, don’t go look at mine because that’s like, I’ve never had roughly more than what I have right now. It’s 10,000 followers. And like one of my personal mantras is that you do not have to have millions of followers to make millions of dollars, and you do not have to make millions of dollars to make a massive and eternal impact. Right. And it’s like a RR (00:56:05): Hundred percent. That’s what I’m saying, what you’re saying. Yep, a hundred percent. AJV (00:56:07): And you know, and I love what you said, and it’s like I’ve been reading a lot through the Old Testament right now, and we’ll kind of like, I know wrap in this, but it’s like, one of the things that I’ve been, I’ve been holding on to is like, just like gold where we are refined through the fire, right? And it’s like nobody looks back and says, oh my gosh, that success, that victory, it defined me. I learned everything I know. And I had this victorious thing that happened. It’s like nobody says that. I look back and go, like that valley, that challenge, that horrendous year, that awful relationship that, you know, that bankruptcy thing, it’s like we grow through the crap, right? Mm-Hmm. . Yeah. And, but we just gotta persist. RR (00:56:49): Yeah. I mean, it’s the fertilizer of life. Right? Exactly. You know what I mean? You just, AJV (00:56:53): And knowing that it’s like, and I love what you said, it’s like, man, if you just don’t give up, you just RR (00:56:59): Give, just, you know, get more. I, I think it was Ed Ette said this, we just had edit what, you know, and I know he’s, he’s a client, you some stuff. Yeah. Yeah. And he said, you know, don’t get your ego wrapped up in your results. Get it wrapped up in your intention. And I love that because that’s what I’m really, you know, if your intention is to do good in the world and to help others and, you know, get wrapped up in doing that and providing real value to people. And you know, the other thing is, is learn business too, guys. You know, I, you know, the other thing is if I could go back and say to myself, you know, you can build an actual, like a company with actual enterprise value that is sellable. Not just a company that makes money. RR (00:57:39): ‘Cause In the beginning, I’ll tell you, I wasted the first, I’d say the first 12 years I just was making money and it was more money than I ever made. And I thought, this is great, you know? And as I started to evolve and grow my business, I started to realize, hey, you know, I had to learn how to run a, a legit business, not this kind of lifestyle thing. And, and if you ever wanna run a lifestyle thing that’s, that’s up to you. I’m just saying like and then as like in my industry, ’cause mergers and acquisitions is such a big deal, I had to bring in several, what I call experts and residents on m and a and enterprise value and financials. And so I started surrounding myself with people that are not like branding and marketing, but that are like, here’s how you read a p and l. RR (00:58:23): Mm-Hmm, , here’s how you look at the financials in your business to know if you’re within certain percentages and ranges that make sense. And here’s, I mean, like, things that like, like most of us are like, ah, I hate that, but it’s really it’s really important too. And I think if I would’ve professionalized my org a lot sooner with good leadership, good metrics, financial reporting, like understanding that I would’ve been so much better off. I would’ve made so much more money. But I’m a marketing and salesperson, so that was all like to me, you know? And so, you know, I was like, ah, financials, like, ugh, just, just go sell something else. You know, there’s, if I guess sell more stuff, there’ll be plenty of net, right? So I, you know, I think I should have done that sooner. But anyway, you know, that’s it. AJV (00:59:06): Ah, this is so good. I mean, I literally took three pages of notes, , while we’re talking of like, these just like great reminders. And you know, honestly, what I love too is like, you know, there’s just quick, two quick things I just wanna highlight as we go is the first thing would be that step back, not step away, right? That is that your job is to step back, not always step away. I think it was a great reminder for anyone who’s like, I just want this off my plate. Yeah. Right? I just want this off my plate. It’s like, maybe reevaluate what, what you’re saying there. A second thing is imitate before you imit innovate, right? I think that’s so good. It’s like, yeah, bring in new people who can think different or think bigger, but first, first imitate before you innovate. AJV (00:59:48): I think that’s so, so, so, so good. And then the third thing that I wrote down, and you said it in the very early, it’s like you gotta know from when you’re going scrappy to strategic, right? Mm-Hmm . And I think some people stay in scrappy a little too long. And at some point you gotta like formalize. Robin, this was so good, so valuable. Thank you so much for being a part of this show. Y’all. this was amazing. Save it. Go back, listen to it on repeat. Share it with your leaders, share it with your team this, RR (01:00:18): Share it with your mssp if you outsource your IT support, that’s who I want. Woo. Woo. That’s . There’s your call to AJV (01:00:24): Know where your audience is. That’s what you need to RR (01:00:27): Know here. They probably don’t even have one, so that’s fine. But AJV (01:00:29): Yeah. You know, I think this, it’s, so this is one of those conversations that really, it’s like this is, this is a conversation 20 years in the making. And if you guys haven’t realized like you just got a masterclass in entrepreneurship, I would encourage you to go back and listen to it. And then also stay tuned for the recap episode that I will do next. Robin, thank you so much. Everyone else, we will see you next time on the influential personal brand.