Ep 375: What Is Imposter Syndrome and Do I Have It | Michelle Chalfant Episode Recap
AJV (00:03):
Hey, allI don’t even know if I can talk, I just had one of the most insightful and enlightening conversations about what it means to be an emotionally healthy adult. And I need that. Like, I need that. And it was like such a really great conversation about as adults, do we make time and space to feel the feelings that we have? And then to actually sit down and talk about where did those feelings come from? Are they true, are they not true? And what do we do about these? And how are these feelings causing success or problems in our lives? Or, you know, and, and some of these, it’s like, how are they affecting our relationships or how are they causing havoc in our relationships because we don’t even realize what they are? And so as a part of this conversation the question came up, what is imposter syndrome and how do you know if you have it right?
AJV (01:09):
So I thought this was really good because a part of being around tons of people who are creating content and building businesses and doing things that are exceptionally important to their lives, and they believe in them deeply, that also comes with some insecurity, right? Because the more willing that you are to put yourself out there, the more, the more vulnerable you have to be and the more vulnerable you are to negative commentary which can cause problems on your mental wellbeing your state of emotional health it, it just doesn’t feel good to go, Hey, that sucks. You suck. I don’t like that. Though nobody likes that. So what, what do we do about it? And so I, I love this conversation. They said that imposter syndrome, I simply believing that you are a fraud. That you are ill-equipped to do the job or task at hand, although, right, and this isn’t a part of any formal definition, although you have the necessary expertise, experience, credentials to do exactly what you’re doing.
AJV (02:24):
You, you are capable of doing it, but you have feelings of like, I’m not good enough. I’m not smart enough, I don’t know enough, I don’t have enough experience. I don’t have enough time. I I, whatever it is, it’s you allow yourself to believe that you are fraud even when you’re not. And so we talked about, well, where does that come from? Where do these feelings come from? And then how do we overcome them? And a huge part of it is just recognizing your own limiting beliefs of what are the things that I actually believe to be true that are not true? They are not true. And so I’m just gonna pause for a second introspection moment here and go, what do you tell yourself? What do you allow yourself to believe about yourself? That is blatantly not true.
AJV (03:28):
Just gonna sit in this awkward silence for just a minute. What lie do you believe about yourself that maybe you’re not even aware of? That’s a limiting belief. And through this conversation I shared that over the last several weeks that I have really been struggling with like, am I capable of doing the job at hand that I have as c e o and co-founder of Brand Builders Group? Am I capable of doing that and being a great mom to two toddlers and being a good wife to my husband and being a good friend and dedicating enough time to the Lord as I walk in my Christian faith? And do I, does that leave any time for me? It’s like, can I do the job and not work 80 hours a week? And where does that leave me? Because the truth is I’ve been struggling with that.
AJV (04:22):
I had a recent emergency surgery and I have not been able to get back to my normal workplace, which has caused my, caused my workload to grow and grow and grow. And my time is less and less and it makes me feel like I’m not equipped to do the job. It makes me feel like I’m incapable of, somehow I’m different than I was six weeks ago. Or something has changed in me that doesn’t have have it in me anymore. And I had not really paused and taken the time to go where this is coming from. And what lies am I saying? What lies am I believing? And I think a part of this conversation really comes down to it’s like, do you even recognize the lies that you believe? Do you even recognize that you have limiting beliefs that you say to yourself and you literally speak out into the world without even realizing?
AJV (05:15):
It is a limiting belief. It is a lie that you have allowed yourself to believe and it is holding you back. And I think awareness, consciousness of this is the first step of, of overcoming these limiting beliefs, which ultimately can result in imposter syndrome, right? It’s like I’m sitting here as the c e o of Brand builders group. I’m going like, can I imposter? Like, am I equipped for this? Like, can I do this? Deep down knowing I was built for this, I’ve been training and working my whole life for this. Like everything leading up to this is, is God preparing me to do the work that he has for me? And also knowing that I’m not doing this alone God is working through this and I have an amazing husband and a partner and a staff and a team and coaches and mentors.
AJV (06:02):
I am not doing this on my own. So where is this nonsense coming from? And here’s what I can just tell you in my own journey through this conversation, and not just one conversation. But it’s, I have literally said out loud, I don’t know a hundred times over the last six weeks, I just don’t have enough time. I don’t have enough time. That is my limiting belief. And until I took a moment to have a conversation about what was going on, I did not even realize that I was literally suffering from imposter syndrome, allowing myself to believe I’m a fraud. That I’m incapable of doing something that I’m fully capable of doing while simultaneously allowing and even repeating it out loud, a limiting belief, speaking it into the world, letting it control my life and my thoughts and feeling more ill-equipped every single time I say it.
AJV (06:57):
I don’t have enough time. That’s not true.
AJV (07:54):
And we just can’t work ourself into that because you already are right? There’s nothing that you can do to make yourself more valuable than you already are. I am just as worthy and just as valuable. If I work 80 hours a week or eight hours a week or zero
AJV (08:45):
And so maybe this podcast interview that I did with Michelle Shon was really just for me. And the interesting thing, and I didn’t tell her this, but I’ll tell everyone else who’s listening. I almost canceled it today because I have a, a sick baby at home and I’m so behind and I’m like, I just need to postpone it. I just need to reschedule. I don’t have time for this. But I didn’t, I don’t know why, but I didn’t. Mainly cuz I’m looking at my calendar going, what am I, where am I gonna move this to? And I I’m so glad,
AJV (09:26):
To feel the feelings that you have to recognize what is true and what is not. And then to speak truth to the lie, which is what I got to do on my own podcast interview with Michelle
AJV (10:34):
There was 24 hours, then there’s 24 hours. Now that’s not new and different. I have the same team, the same staff. Everything else is the same, but my feeling about it has changed. And that’s what I can control. That’s what I can own. That’s what I can write down. I can think about it, I can speak truth to it. I can write down the evidence to it. I can make a plan and I can move forward. We can all do that. But it takes time and it takes space and it takes desire and intention. What it doesn’t take is you vegging out and going, I don’t wanna talk about it. I’m just so tired. I’m gonna go, go get a glass of wine and I’m gonna pop on the TV and I’m gonna watch a show. How about instead of doing that, we take these five minutes and we go, what is true? What is a lie? And what is factual evidence of truth in my life when it comes to this certain thing? So I hope right now you’ll just give yourself five minutes. Anything that is calling your attention will be there in five minutes. But give yourself five minutes right now to go, what is a limiting belief in my life that I’m allowing to wreak havoc on my belief in myself and my relationships and everything around me? And start making a change about it right now?
AJV (11:53):
Cuz it really could only be five minutes. Awareness is the first step. So take five minutes and see where it gets you. We’ll see you next time.
Ep 374: How Believing In Yourself Can Grow Your Business with Michelle Chalfant
AJV (00:02):
Hey everybody, and welcome to another episode on the Influential Personal Brand Podcast. As you know, I say this every time, and I genuinely mean it every single time, but I am so excited to have my friend and our, our guest on the show today, Michelle Chalfant. And there’s a couple of things that I think you need to know. So, before you settle in and go, is this the episode for me? I’m just gonna go ahead and tell you it is this is an episode for you. Because we’re not talking about unique or specific business tactics today. However, what we’re gonna talk about today is one of the most common and universal things that you require to be successful in business and in life. And it’s self-worth, it’s self-confidence. It’s the belief in yourself that you can do what you were put on this planet to do, what you were set out to do, most likely, whatever it is you’re doing which is why you’re listening to this podcast in the first place.
AJV (01:03):
So it is, I’m, I’m gonna say it’s like it’s not a traditional business tactic, but it’s one that is absolutely necessary in the space that we’re in. Building your reputation, building your personal brand, and doing it with authority and authenticity. So it is for you. So now you know this is the episode for you. So stay tuned and listen to the whole thing. I promise it’s going to be worth your time. Now, before we get started, let me just do a quick formal bio of Michelle, and then I will also give her a chance to introduce herself a little bit more casually. But she is a licensed therapist, a master life coach, and the founder and c e o of the Michelle Shon Company. She also leads this wickedly awesome podcast called The Adult Chair Podcast, which blends psychology and spirituality together, which is probably to me, one of the most foundational important things in all of our lives is how we’re connected spiritually, which drives all of our, our business decisions and life decisions.
AJV (02:05):
It also is globally recognized. It’s got millions and millions of downloads. We’ll put links to it, but you definitely wanna check it out. She also runs these amazing events. She’s got courses she does coaching. I could go on and on and on, but I think the, one of the reasons that’s so relevant to everyone who is listening is because these are the same things that you are doing. These are the same things that you wanna do. And so how do you go from not doing those things to doing those things? So, Michelle, welcome to the show.
MC (02:35):
Thank you so much, aj. That was such a warm welcome. I loved it. I feel like I’m joining a party. I’m like, oh,
AJV (02:43):
That’s how we should feel. That’s
MC (02:45):
Fun,
AJV (02:47):
Alright, so help our audience get to know you a little bit. Like how did you get into this space of coaching and events and content creation and courses? Because being a licensed therapist and doing all these things, I kind of find is a little bit unique. Yeah. And you didn’t always do these things. So how’d you get into this?
MC (03:08):
Oh my gosh. Okay. So I was a licensed, I still am a licensed therapist for about 20 years, but about, gosh, 10 or 15 years in, actually moved to Nashville in oh seven and had to start my practice all over again because nobody knew me in Nashville,
AJV (04:20):
Almost 10 years ago? Yeah.
MC (04:22):
Yeah. It’s, and I said, okay, I don’t know. So he kind of hounded me for like a year. So the end of 2014, I said, fine, I’m doing it. So we launched the Adult Share podcast. And the podcast is all about teaching people how to be emotionally healthy adults. Hmm. It’s stuff I love to talk about. So it is, it’s a lot of self-worth. It’s how to have healthy relationship. It’s how to work through your fears, your codependency, whatever the heck, anything at all. That is what I used to what I talk about. So that happened the end of 2014. I did not even pay attention to the stats. I didn’t care about them, you know, I was like, oh, this is good. You know, I didn’t really wanna do it. I was like, I’ll do it for my clients. So it was fun to say to my clients like, Hey, you wanna learn how to set a boundary?
MC (05:08):
Go listen to number 15. You know, I just did a podcast on it. So anyway, that was the end of 2014. By 2018, 19, it’s really, you know, then the podcast rule is really growing and it’s taking off. It’s getting bigger and bigger and bigger. And I realized I’m like, I, I gotta, I need to do more. Because what was happening was my business that was already full-time. I was getting people all around the world hitting me up for sessions. Cuz I was also a coach at that time. I became a coach, I think sometime like maybe 2010, something like that. So I did that to my, to my trainings so I could see clients anywhere in the world. So I was getting reached out to, you know, from Germany to San Francisco to China. You know, people were like, Hey, can you, I wanna see you as a, as can I see you as a coach?
MC (05:54):
Well, I couldn’t cuz I was already full-time. So I said, let me create something for them that will appease them. Right? So I did a membership, I started a membership in 2019. I kept getting hit up. They’re like, well, we want more. We wanna, we want people that know how to talk about what you do
MC (06:39):
So now we have this global, you know, people from all over the world are taking our certification program. We are now, this is the year. So we’ve run it since in the middle of Covid is when we launched it. If you can imagine, we launch it in September of 2020. We’re now in our third year now we do two pro programs a year. So we’re launching our next one this June in 2023. And it’s just, it’s such an incredible way cuz my mission is to bring healing into this world. Mm-Hmm. So I have this vision for creating this army of light workers, like these army of coaches that can go out into the world and really multiply what I’m doing. And again, it’s not all about me. I’m not the only person doing this work, of course in the world, but I love that we’re able to reach more people through our coaches. So that is where I, that is where I am today. So I’ve got a book, I’ve got, I’ve got another book coming out. I just gave it to my agent the other day. Congrats.
AJV (07:30):
Yeah. So when did, when did your first book come out?
MC (07:34):
Oh gosh, 2018. Yeah, so, so the first book really outlines the adult chair model. And then again, I do the live teachings, I’ve got the podcasts, and now the coaching program is, are really the biggest thing right now.
AJV (07:48):
And you have a new book coming out?
MC (07:51):
I don’t know one, I just gave it to him. He is looking at it. So I’m, I’m the beginning stages of that, probably am gonna say in the next nine months or so to a year.
AJV (07:59):
Okay. So I think one of the things I was trying to do as you were talking because a lot of people, what I have found, which will be very relevant to our conversation today, and I think this is really important because I see this no matter who you are, no matter what your business is, is we compare our step one to someone else’s step 1000. Yep. And we go, well this just isn’t working and you’ve been doing it all of six months. Or you think it needs to be happening faster, but yet
MC (08:28):
Yeah,
AJV (08:28):
Good things just don’t happen fast often. It takes time and work. So I was trying to capture this and I built a little timeline. I think this is important. So tell me if I missed anything, but I was trying to capture this. So one, you’ve been a therapist for 20 years, so let’s just pause for a second. Go
AJV (09:26):
This is so important for everyone
AJV (10:25):
Mm-Hmm.
AJV (11:09):
And I was like, take the stairs. When we launched that in 2010, this was a grassroots hiding away in our closets into the wee hours of the morning
MC (11:52):
For sure. People, people absolutely look at the 1% that are making it and doing so well and making the millions and millions of dollars. And they think it’s so easy and they don’t see all the struggles. In 2018, if I can tell you a little side story here about one of my biggest struggles probably was when, again, the podcast is taken off. I mean, I’m getting hit up constantly. Like, can I work with you? Can I work with you? Can you come to this country? Can you come to this? Like, I was like, I I can’t do it all. I need to hire a marketing firm really to help me. Mm-Hmm.
MC (12:34):
I don’t wanna learn how to build a website. I don’t wanna learn how to build an online course. I don’t wanna learn how to build a membership. I don’t know how to do that. I’m not a tech person, but I can get up on stage and I can talk and I can write books and I can do all that. I’m gonna do what I’m great at. So anyway, I researched marketing firms and I said, okay, I need to hire a company. They can help me really launch this thing big time. And the one that I hired in August of 2018, I, I signed a contract with her and shortly thereafter I knew it. I was like, this was a big mistake. And I mean, it was horrible emails that went out. I had given her a membership. I said, these are the thing, these are the ones that I really like.
MC (13:13):
Well, she took one of them and copycatted it almost exactly like I looked at it when it was done and I said, this is someone else’s. I’ll get sued for the, like it was, I can go on and on. I’m not gonna go into it. But it was one thing after the next I’d signed a contract. I was stuck with her for six months. A hundred thousand dollars I spent on her. It was one debacle after the next, after the next, after the next, after the next. So that was from August through, I think it was December some or July through Dec. It was December 3rd is when it ended. I can tell you that’s branded in my mind. But I remember the day I was done with her, I was like, I am done. I’m not only done with this, I’m done with everything. She had just fried me out.
MC (13:56):
I had lost all this money that I had saved that I was so ready to launch my company. And I actually went out with one of my husband’s mentors that lives in Nashville. And I went out to breakfast with him and I looked at him, I was in tears all the time. I was like, I don’t wanna do co this business. I don’t wanna be an entrepreneur. It fried me out. I mean, I was done. And I went out with Richard and he looked across the table from me. He’s a guy that goes into companies. He’s worth hundreds of millions of dollars. And he looked at me across the table and he goes, Michelle, what’s going on? And I told him my whole story and he said, I said, Richard, I just lost a hundred thousand dollars. I am fried. I don’t wanna do this anymore. And he goes, so you lost a hundred thousand dollars? And I said, yeah. And he goes, so what? He looks at me, he said it as if I dropped $5 out in the parking lot, like I had lost $5. And I was like, what
Speaker 3 (14:47):
Do you, you hear what I said?
MC (14:51):
Like, that’s a ton of money. Goes are you’re an entrepreneur. Do you expect not to lose anything? And I said, yeah, you know, I researched her, other people I know used her and I, but I found out that the other people that had used her also dropped her. And I was like, I don’t know how I made such a bad mistake. I’m so intuitive. What’s wrong with me? And he goes, how do you know that you didn’t learn from it. Mm-Hmm. It wasn’t a mistake. And he made it sound like it was so not a big deal. He completely reframed my whole drama. You know, I was quitting my company. He goes, you can quit if you want, but I think you’re stupid. I was like, no, I’m stupid. I said, okay. So I left breakfast and that was when I got back on the horse and I was really done.
MC (15:34):
I mean, aj I was done and I spent the rest of that month. I remember I went through Christmas and I said, okay, what am I gonna do? Am I gonna stay or go? And I made the decision. I said, okay, I’m going to do this and I’m gonna do it in my own way and a different way. And that was then when I hired one of the best hired as I’ve ever hired, which I still working with her now. She’s my c o o and I hired her January 7th. And it has been full steam ahead ever since. But I’ve still made a lot of mistakes along the way though I’ve still lost money. Not a hundred thousand, thank God, but
AJV (16:09):
I think that’s, that’s such a good reminder. And I’m actually, I’m pulling up something because I, I have like recently even been in the season, so I think you know this cuz we had to reschedule this podcast, but just five weeks ago to the day I had emergency gallbladder surgery, rush to the ER said, you’re not leaving here until this comes out. It was somewhat of a, a life or death situation. And I came out of that and I think part of it is like, it was a really big wake up call for me of like, whatever I think is big is not big when it’s compared to this mm-hmm.
AJV (16:59):
We have lots of teams that have two young babies. Mm-Hmm. Just a very busy season. And I feel like over the last six weeks I have been dropping balls left and right. I can’t catch a break in terms of, and it’s, and I think, it’s not that I can’t catch a break, it’s God trying to slow me down. He’s like, woman
AJV (17:43):
And I thought I was like, this was like very, very similar to that of going, man, it’s, it’s my own perspective. It’s my own perception of my situation. And when we’re too close to it, we can’t even see what’s happening. And I, I literally popped it up and this is the very first thing I saw on my phone. And this was just like last week, like super relevant to what you were just saying. And it says, God is saying to you today, you have been questioning yourself lately and wondering if you are really strong enough or good enough to do what I have placed in your heart to do. But let me remind you that you can do all things through me. Don’t let fear talk you out of your dream. And remember I am with you and you will make it. You can do this. And it’s so similar to like those breakfast conversations when I think we, we just give up too soon. We give up too easy because it’s hard. Running a business, pursuing a dream life is hard.
MC (18:38):
It’s hard. It’s really hard. And, you know, so we certify coaches now. Like that is a big part of what I do. And it’s so interesting cuz people get so excited about becoming a coach. I’m like, all right, now let’s, let’s talk about going out and building your business, you know, and let’s go get some clients and let’s go talk to people about what you do. And people are like, can you help me?
AJV (19:21):
So, so let’s talk about this for a minute. Cause I think this is a good transition because one thing I know is true, it’s like you wouldn’t still be in business if you weren’t going, I’m gonna tell people about this. And it’s like, yeah. The way that it has iterated and grown and evolved just p it, I love it because it’s organic and it’s like, I’ll do what my audience tells me they want from me. Right. Yeah. That feels true
MC (19:45):
To me. Yeah.
AJV (19:46):
However, a lot of people want to be coaches. A lot of people are coaches, wanna be authors, wanna be speakers, and a lot who are but I thought this was an interesting statistic is that the coaching industry is the second fastest growing industry in the world right now. It’s expected more than 20 billion in the United States. Just the United States this year. There’s more than I think 1.4 million people with coaches their title just on LinkedIn alone. There’s so many indicators of going, man, there is a deep desire, a deep longing for someone to be like, help me
MC (20:35):
Yeah.
AJV (20:36):
Yet they can’t get clients. Mm-Hmm.
MC (20:56):
I really, again, I followed what the audience wanted from me. So I, people started asking me, is there a book on this? Is there a book on this? Is there a book on this? I’m like, sure I can create a book. So I wrote the book, you know, is there a live event? Can you do a live event? I love doing live event. Sure. I’ll do a live event. So I’d put together what the audience was asking me to do. But when you talk about like, how do you overcome that fear? I mean, I moved to Nashville and I didn’t know any, I knew nobody. And I had a a, a shingle. I, I could hang a shingle as a therapist. I had a private practice, I had a license, I could do it. But it’s like, I don’t know anybody here. There was no social, like, maybe, I don’t even remember when Facebook, I think Facebook might have been coming up, but it’s not anything like it was now. And it’s funny because I didn’t think twice about it. I really didn’t, I didn’t think it would be hard. I was like, all right, well I’m gonna go out and talk about what I enjoy talking about. I’m gonna go out and talk about again, like how do you have a healthy relationship with, with self and others? You know, how do you, how do you build self-worth? How do you love yourself? I’m just gonna go out and talk about that. How do you build a business? I would just go out And where
AJV (22:03):
Would you go? Yeah. Where would
MC (22:07):
Went to I, I and I, I went to the Brentwood Library, that was one of the first places I went. I hit up yoga studios. I was like, Hey, do you want a speaker to come in? Like I’d love to come and talk to you about this. I remember different schools would say, Hey, will you come in? Oh, I like what you’re doing. Can you come talk to my, we’ve got a classroom full of parents, or I’ve got a classroom full of, so I got a classroom full of so-and-so will you come talk to my mothers about this? Sure. I’d go to like the doctor’s office and I’d bring my business cards and I’d go, Hey, if you have anyone that needs any help at all, this is what I do. And I give them my cards. You just can’t be afraid to put yourself out there in that way.
MC (22:46):
And y it’s not like you’re asking for money in that moment, but you, this is where the self-worth comes in. You’ve got to believe in yourself in what you’re putting out there. And you need to believe that you have value. And I knew what I was doing was different for me. And I can say this cuz I’m a therapist. I think therapy is outdated. It’s a little archaic. And not to say that, hear me now, there are a lot of great therapists out there, but it’s interesting and I have heard that coaching is really taking off. But when I started my coaching program, I didn’t even know that. I was like, this is just what I wanna do. I wanna create something that’s really a crossbreed between both that has the best of both worlds coming together. And honestly, it’s more of like a consulting coaching kind of thing.
MC (23:31):
But anyway, you’ve gotta believe in what you’re doing. Hmm. And the way that I teach my coaches, like, they have such great success when they’re in the practicum hour part of it. They’re like, I really st I’m believing in what I can do do. Like, they’re walking away saying how great I am. So for anyone listening, you’ve got to believe in what you’re putting out in the world. You have to believe in that. Like what are you putting out there? If you believe in it, then, then, then when you talk about it, there’s an energy that you portray out into the world. And yeah. So,
AJV (24:03):
You know, it’s, I’m so glad that you said that because I, we all know this, we’ve all met, let’s just call ’em salespeople, right? Yeah. Because at the end of the day, we got a little bit of salespeople in all of us. Yeah. We need to. But it’s like, you know what it’s like to talk to someone who’s like, man, even if I don’t buy this, they, you are so passionate about this, I’m just like, totally, I wanna help you even though I’m not gonna buy it. It’s like, who can help? Yes. Who can I tell? Because you can feel it. It is, it’s an energy. It’s no, it’s an energy. But I think a lot of that just stems from one, they believe in it. Two, they’ve, they’re confident. Right. The, the confidence. Totally. You can, you can feel when someone is confident, even if they don’t know what the heck they’re talking about.
AJV (24:48):
It’s like when you say it like you do, it’s just so funny because I was just talking to my husband in the car driving home somewhere the other night, and I’m trying to remember what the word is, but I completely made up a word. And as soon as it came outta my mouth, it was like I was trying to say a very normal basic word. And then I got like tongue twisted in my head and I said the word, and then I was like thinking like, wait, that’s not a word. And I looked at Rory and I said, did you just let me say that? And he goes, babe, like you said it so confidently, I was wondering if I’d never heard this word before
AJV (25:23):
I believe in what this is. And so I’m, I think this is like two things. I think a really important one is I wanna talk about how do you build that level of self-belief? Yeah. How do you build that level of self-worth where, you know, you are a little bit rejection proof. Yeah. And you don’t let the external things in this world impact you. So you give up on your dream. Mm-Hmm.
MC (25:53):
Oh
AJV (25:53):
Yeah. I wanna recap. If you do not write this down and humble yourself to the point of, if I really wanna do this, if I really wanna be this bus and be in this business, I’m going to have to show up at the Brentwood library. Yep. At the local yoga studio with sweaty people and yoga clothes. Yep. At schools with parents. Yep. At doctor’s offices who were like, I thought there was a no station slot on the door. Right. It’s like, but you gotta be able to go like the, anywhere I go, there is an audience. If you believe
MC (26:27):
Always
AJV (26:28):
What you do, and I’m imagining a lot of those were not paid
MC (26:33):
In the very beginning. I’m gonna say probably the first two that I did were not paid. And, but very quickly, again, there’s an energy, like I love showing up and speak. I, I get, I’m very excited when I speak. I’m like, oh, we’re so excited to be here. And then people would say, when are you doing this again? I’m gonna come back. I go, oh. So I always had the next one ready mm-hmm.
AJV (27:19):
And, and a little bit of it’s a plan, right? It’s like what? And a plan. Yeah. A plan, right? It’s like you gotta show up prepared. Absolutely. It’s, it’s, you gotta show up with the belief that they’re gonna wanna come back. Yes. That they’re gonna want more. So you better be ready and prepared. And how are you gonna give it to ’em? But stems from self-belief,
MC (27:39):
You have to show up. Like, they’d be crazy not to work with you
AJV (27:44):
Like, have you
MC (27:52):
That’s it.
AJV (27:53):
MC (27:54):
It’s not arrogant though, it’s just believing in yourself. It’s believing in what you’re putting out into the world
AJV (27:59):
And believing what you do can actually help the end user. Right? And,
MC (28:04):
And yes. And you’re gonna have people that are gonna be like, well that’s too much money. Or why would I do that? And that’s okay. That’s okay. Because there’re for, for those few people, there are like a hundred or thousands more that really want to work with you mm-hmm.
AJV (28:38):
Not
MC (28:38):
For you. Not everyone is gonna be for us. Right? Like, not everybody is, and that’s okay.
AJV (28:43):
Yeah. This is so, such a good reminder. So for, again, I don’t wanna recap, just if you didn’t catch it for the second time, one more time.
MC (29:57):
Imposter syndrome is when we feel like we’re a fraud, it feels like we are not capable of doing what we are doing. It feels like I’m, I’m giving you all the ideas. You might have the, like you need more education, you need more training, you’re not good enough. There are people that are better than you out there. You shouldn’t be doing this until you reach this level, which the level keeps going up and up. There’s a never ending point to that. So yeah, really it’s feeling like a fraud. Like you shouldn’t be doing or offering what you are offering in the world. That’s what it is.
AJV (30:30):
Where does that come from?
MC (30:32):
You know what I had, you know who Stephen Pres Presfield is the war of art.
AJV (30:36):
Oh, yes, yes.
MC (30:38):
So great. Okay. So something that he said, which I love, and the war of art is all about resistance. And I had him on the show and he said to me, when you meet resistance, you know you’re moving in the right direction. That’s how you know, because that part of there we, we are, we are human beings that are filled with parts. So even though there’s one Michelle sitting here and filled with hundreds and hundreds of different parts of self, we’ve got a victim, we’ve got an inner critic, we’ve got a fraud, we’ve got an inner child, we’ve got all of these parts, right? So we all have it. And the more exposed we are and the more we put ourselves out there in the world, the greater the chance that we are gonna get judged or criticized for what we’re doing. So there’s that inner part of all of us that we have this fraud or this inner this or inner critic or this imposter that will say, don’t do that.
MC (31:35):
Get small, stay small. Don’t put yourself out there. So the way that you can turn that around is you look at and examine the thoughts or the beliefs that are coming up around this imposter syndrome or the fraud statements that you’re getting, all of the limiting beliefs. So you might hear things like, you’ll never be good enough. You are a loser. I’m not, I’m not lovable. You don’t matter. You know, whatever it might be that you’re saying to yourself. You look at those statements and those are the statements that you wanna go after. And you examine, you say, thank you so much, I appreciate it, but here really is what’s true. Mm-Hmm.
MC (32:27):
Well, those beliefs don’t go away by numbing them out. It’s like putting a bandaid on something. You’ve gotta invite those beliefs in and get to know them. And when you get to know those beliefs, that’s how, how you then transform those beliefs. You can’t transform them until you get to know them. Mm-Hmm.
AJV (33:21):
Definitely not, definitely not right.
MC (33:23):
People think, oh, this is just me. It’s like, no, you know, I have one that that says continue to get better, more trained. Like mine was like, you’re not trained enough. I mean, I have so many certifications, it’s ridiculous.
MC (34:09):
So they’re coming up saying, you’re bad, you’re not worthy, you’re not good enough. And it’s like, well wait a minute, what’s the evidence of that? Is that true today? 2023 in this moment? It’s like, well, you know, I guess it’s not because this person likes me and this person loves me. And you know, you kind of, you challenge it, but you don’t fight with it. You have a conversation with it. And that’s how you start to morph and change that belief. And then it gets quiet and then when it rears up again, you go, I hear you. Thank you for, for that. I hear you. I know you think that I’m not good enough. I know you want me to not move forward, but I’m gonna move forward. We’re okay. And then it gets quiet.
AJV (34:48):
So I mean, it’s like just even being cognizant and aware and conscious of these is life altering. Totally. It really is. Like, as you’re talking, I was thinking about the last six weeks in my own brain of going like, man, why was I feeling that way? Like, what was the limiting belief that I keep saying to myself? Or I keep saying out loud. And it was like, as soon as you were talking, I was like, oh, I don’t exactly what it is. I have caught myself saying, I just don’t have enough time. Oh. Like a hundred times in the last six weeks because I’ve been healing and things are piling up and I haven’t been able to work at normal capacity and all these things. And I have allowed myself to go. It’s like I literally let this idea of, because I don’t ha I’m not working a full work schedule. I’m not capable of being the c e o.
MC (35:40):
Oh
AJV (35:41):
Yeah. And it’s like, but just even allowing yourself to go, let’s pause for a second and go, why am I feeling this way? It’s life altering. Cause the truth is, it’s like I have just as much time today as I did before. The days, like the hours of the day haven’t changed. What’s happening in those hours have changed. But it’s like a funny thing that if you don’t watch it and you don’t, you don’t stay on top of it. It’s like that will turn you upside down so fast.
MC (36:08):
Yes. These beliefs come in and instead of witnessing them, they, they kind of take us over and we get lost in them and we start spiraling down and we make decisions based on those limiting beliefs. And all of a sudden, you know, we’re not in a good place where if we can witness it and see it as a part almost external to self, so we can go, oh, there it is, there’s my fraud again, you can even give your fraud like a visual. Like you can see it as, you know, a little person or a little, little mony guy or whatever you, however you wanna see it. A blue blob, it doesn’t matter. But when it comes back, you can go there. You are, what do you want me to know? All that it’s coming in to do is to protect you. Like it’s intentions. Very good. Trying to keep you safe, trying to keep you from getting criticized and judged. You can go, thank you so much for being here. I’ve got this, I appreciate you being here, but really it’s okay, but you don’t let it take you over. You witness it and talk to it in that way. And that’s how you change it.
AJV (37:07):
And this right here is why the coaching industry is exploding. Yeah. Right? Because yeah, we need these reminders. We need to vocalize them, verbalize them, tear them down, figure out how to conquer. Yes. A lot of our own mindset. And I don’t think that’s new. I just think that, like, I know when we started our first coaching business in 2000 and oh my gosh, what year was that? 2006. wow. A long time ago. I just remember it was like the idea of having a coach was like in a very, they were very niche industries where it was widely accepted. I remember this is one of the most significant I memories I have from my late twenties. And I was at a b and I networking meeting, I don’t even know anymore. But I was at one of those and they were, you know, like networking hour, whatever. And they were going around and saying, you know, what do you do? And I said, Hey, my name is AJ Vaden, I’m a consultant and I remember this one guy looks me dead in the eye, laughs in my face and says, oh, you mean you’re unemployed?
MC (38:08):
Oh my gosh.
AJV (38:09):
And I was like, no, I mean, I’m a consultant. And he goes like, for real, like, you actually have paying clients. And it was like such a taboo thing of, oh, if you’re a coach, that means you don’t have a job. Like, I remember that. But like today, if you don’t have a coach, I’m wondering why not? I don’t know anyone totally doesn’t have one or who isn’t looking for one.
MC (38:30):
Yep.
AJV (38:30):
You know, and it’s, it’s completely different just 15 years later. So, okay, so on that note of like this whole thing of, because I really do think this lack of self-belief is the number one I believe regardless of what anyone else does, I believe, and I see it with my own eyes, it’s the number one reason and my personal experiences of why your business fails.
MC (38:54):
Yep.
AJV (38:55):
Because you stop.
MC (38:56):
Yeah. You
AJV (38:57):
Could. And a lot of that has to do with, are you going to be willing, confident enough to go and ask people for the business, even if they tell you no. So how do you build self-belief and self-worth? And I will just tell our audience right now before we get into this conversation, because this’ll probably be a part of us wrapping up because I’m a chatty Kathy and I could talk about this stuff for the next three hours, have to watch the clock. I’m like, oh,
MC (39:22):
Countdown,
AJV (39:23):
MC (40:11):
Yeah. So, oh my goodness. So again, with self-worth, we wanna notice when we don’t feel good about ourselves, we wanna start slowing down and paying attention to the thoughts that we’re having. I love journaling and writing them down because, you know, we try to like master these things in our mind. So it’s like, okay, well I don’t wanna think that thought, I’m just not gonna think it anymore. No, that does not work.
MC (40:59):
So it’s hard to go from, I hate myself, do I love myself? But can you go from, I hate myself to, I like who I am today or I’m starting to like myself. So you wanna build that bridge to where you wanna go. So find beliefs that feel right for you today, and you start saying those to yourself. You look in the mirror and you say those back and forth to yourself. I like myself, I’m beginning to like myself more and look at it and then feel it in the body. When we feel these beliefs in the body, we’re anchoring them in. That’s what happens is again, we try to, to do this mental ping pong. It’s like, I don’t wanna think this thought. I’m gonna stop. I’m gonna have wine, I’m gonna watch Netflix, I’m gonna do, it just numbs us out temporarily because the beliefs are there until we really look at them and work with them.
MC (41:46):
Meditation is wonderful and this and this self-worth bundle that I put that I’m offering for you guys is for meditations. Mm-Hmm. And one of them is on limiting beliefs, is journaling prompts, all of those things. So you can re and it’s not gonna, does not take a lot of time, but it really is a way to get you started, to start changing your self worth so you can feel really solid about who you are. Because again, if you don’t feel Val valuable, then what you’re putting out in the world is gonna fe other people will feel that lack of value in what you are putting out. It comes from you, it comes from inside. So again, examine the beliefs that you’re having now that are in conflict with you and how you want to feel. Write them down, challenge them, figure out what’s true today. And positive affirmations are huge, especially looking in the mirror. That’s a great place to start for sure.
AJV (42:38):
So good. For sure. That’s one of the things that I wrote down that I heard in my brain that you said is, you know, it’s like what we really do instead of dealing with this stuff is we distract ourselves. Oh yeah. Right. It’s like we grab, grab the glass of wine, say, I don’t wanna talk about it right now, we turn on a show and we veg out. Yep. We just smacked ourselves and all the while we’re just pushing all this stuff down and never actually going. I should probably address that. Should probably figure out why that’s happening. Yep. And so I love this and I love that you’ve provided some frameworks and meditations to like, help people do some additional exercises. So y’all please go grab the self-worth bundle. We’ll make sure the link is in the show notes on this same topic.
MC (43:23):
Yeah.
AJV (43:24):
Kind of tied to business development because I think for any coach or any entrepreneur for that matter but I’ll, I’ll target this to the coaches right now. It’s like how, how do you get someone to be confident enough to go, I’m gonna go sell what I do, I’m gonna go ask somebody to pay me money to be their coach.
MC (43:43):
Mm-Hmm.
MC (44:34):
People have it backwards. You know, people ask me all the time too, like, how do I set a boundary? Can you give me the words? I’m like, no, I can’t give you the words because you won’t set a boundary until you feel worthy. Yeah. And you feel value. It’s, it’s a, you gotta go inside first. So no matter what job, no matter what business you have, you’ve gotta believe in it. You’ve gotta remember what’s your why, why are you doing what you’re doing? When you believe it and you believe that what you’re doing is really important in the world, not to everybody, but to, there are, there’s a target audience that really wants to hear from you. When you believe that that is how then you can go out and sell yourself. And again, challenge the thoughts that will come up and say, you’re not good enough though.
MC (45:18):
You, it’s alwa for me, it’s always about looking at the thoughts. What are the thoughts that are coming up? The thoughts are gonna come up to trip you up. It’s just is every human has these thoughts that try to stop us, get in touch with those. But again, more importantly, what’s your value? What’s your why? What’s your reason for doing what you’re doing? For me, it’s like my north star is I’m here to bring healing into this world. Everything I do is about bringing healing and to every human I can touch on this planet. That’s my thing. That is what I’m here to do and nothing’s gonna stop me, but I believe that for myself. So that’s what others have to do for their own business as well.
AJV (45:56):
Yeah. It’s like you gotta find that, that deep resonating belief of like, yep, I don’t care if you pay me or not, I’d still be doing this, totally doing this for the next six months. I’m gonna be doing this for the next 60 years. Totally. But you gotta kinda have that like longevity perspective in it. I love that. I think that’s, it is true. It’s like you gotta know your why and then you gotta know your who. Like who are you doing this for? Right? Yeah. Yeah. I think that’s so, so good. Okay, so two last quick things. And this can be rapid fire. We don’t have to like go into like deep dialogue if we don’t have time, but I, I think these are two really just quick things. Do. You mentioned earlier it’s like way in beginning and the early of the conversation of like, I just learned it’s like I have to do what I am best at and that’s not everything. Mm-Hmm.
MC (46:54):
Yes. So this, again, I I, I go back to my body as a barometer or what that tells me. I’m very in tune with what I feel. And again, it goes back to energy. So if I am cha, if someone says to me, and let me give you an example, Wayne. In the beginning way, in the beginning in 2000, whatever it was 14, 15, I remember I was working with a guy that started the podcast with me and he goes, you need to start doing social media posts. And I was like, okay. And he sat down with me and he did a tutorial for me. Like he could do it in two minutes. I sat there, I remember like checking out
MC (47:37):
Mm-Hmm. So there’s resistance from fear and there’s resistance because it’s just not my thing. I wasn’t afraid to do it. I was resistant because it’s not my thing. Like if you said to me, go write four meditations and start writing a book, I’d be so happy. Right?
MC (48:24):
I’m like, it took me an hour and a half and I go done. So look for that resistance. When you feel resistance, you’re not meant to do it. And I talk to a lot of people that’ll say to me, I’m gonna design my new website. I’m like, are you outta your mind? Hire, go to Upwork. Like, hire someone to do that. Do, do you wanna do websites, you know, for a living? They’re like, no, I don’t know what I’m doing. I’m gonna take a tutorial on YouTube. I’m like, you’re insane. Like, resistance. You hire it up. Upwork is my friend. So
AJV (48:51):
Yes, I love it. I think that’s like such a good reminder to all of us. It’s like, there are, there are so few things that only you can do, right? Totally do those things. Do those things. There’s a whole world of people who can do other things that you not do. So, all right, last question. We talked about this just a little bit, but you had mentioned a, a key part of what you do and all the things that you do is just teaching people how to be an emotionally healthy adult, right? Yeah. Yeah. So in as few words, as quickly as you can of going, I wanna be an emotionally healthy adult
MC (49:35):
Okay? The whole model is based on five tenets. I’m just gonna give you the five tenets, right? You gotta own your reality. That means get radically honest with yourself. What do you, what’s going on in your life that you’re not owning? Like, are you drinking too much? Are you in a marriage that you’re not happy in? Are you in a relationship you’re not happy in? So own your reality and live responsibly. Number two, you’ve got to learn how to feel your emotions. Because if we don’t, we project. If we don’t know how to do that, we numb out. So you’ve got to feel your emotions. Number three, we’ve gotta manage our triggers. We don’t project our pain on other people. When you’re triggered, here’s the key. When we’re triggered, it means that there’s an unconscious limiting belief that belongs to us, that’s rising up for us. It’s a belief that belongs to us. Yet what what we do is we get mad at others. Right? Stop it. Look at yourself. It’s a limiting belief. It’s a gift, honestly, that’s what I say. Triggers are a gift. So we gotta manage our triggers. Number four, build self-worth. Number five, you’ve got to learn how to set healthy boundaries for yourself. That’s it.
AJV (50:45):
Where do people go? Where do people go? How do they work with you? If they’re going, whoa, what you just said is what I need, where do you wanna go?
MC (50:54):
Yeah. Yep. You go to the adult chair.com, I’ve got the podcast. I talk about all this on the podcast. I have guests on. This is what I teach my coaches how to do. This is how I teach my coaches to work with other people, though, doing this exact thing.
AJV (51:07):
So, oh, Michelle, so much wisdom. This is, thank you. This is so awesome. So, I mean, I, I’m literally like taking notes both for all of you, for the show notes, but then for myself, right? It’s like this, this is what we need, right? This is what everyone needs, and that’s why I started this podcast. I saying, this isn’t a business tactics episode, but this is a necessary and required, universally applicable conversation that we all need to help succeed in what we’re doing, whatever that is. And then also to get your message out to the world. You don’t wanna be the world’s best kept secret. That’s not what we’re doing this for. We wanna get it out there. So Michelle, thank you so, so much for this gem of a conversation. Thank you. I will put all of these links in the show notes. And for everyone listening, don’t forget to grab the self-worth bundle and we will see you next time on the influential personal brand.
Ep 372: How Pastors Can Build Their Personal Brand with Carey Nieuwhof
RV (00:02):
Hey, I am so excited to have this conversation with someone who is a newer, but quickly, I think quickly becoming good friend of mine, Carey Nieuwhof, and I love this guy. So I was him and I met backstage at a couple, at, at different events. We’ve had a lot of friends of friends through the years. It’s one of those relationships where it’s like, how, how do we not know each other? Uhhuh, how have we not connected? Recently I was on his podcast. He has a great podcast. It’s got millions and millions of downloads, and he is one of the most influential leadership speakers and authors, I think, in the world today. So he’s got blogs and his online content which has over 1.5 million, you know, visitors, viewers, readers a month. He’s the founder of the Art of Leadership Academy.
RV (00:53):
His bestselling book is called, at Your Best, how to Get Time, energy, and Priorities Working in Your Favor. He has been profiled by Forbes and Fast Company. He lives in Toronto, and he also is a pastor. And his personal mission is about reducing the decline in the church. And so, you know, I’m a hardcore bible thump in Jesus freak, and so we have that in common. But I thought it would be fun to hear Carrie’s interesting and unique perspective on how do you grow your personal brand as a pastor in gen, you know, building, becoming an author and a speaker, and having a huge podcast and blog following in general, but also specifically as a pastor in some of those church specific dynamics. So anyways, Carey, welcome to the show.
CN (01:39):
Hey, Rory, great to hang out with you. Thanks so much for having me on.
RV (01:43):
So, can you just tell us a little bit about your story, because I, I think there’s a, you know, churches are, you know, hu huge institution in the world, obviously, but even in, just if you think about it in the context of personal branding, so many authors and so many speakers come out of quote unquote the church world, whether it’s church conferences or their pastors, or they have like sermon series that go viral and that launches their personal brand. You know? Tell us a little bit of your story of just like how you came up through the church world, and then where did your personal brand, like what do you mark as the genesis of your personal brand?
CN (02:24):
So there was absolutely no strategy behind the personal brand. It was completely fortuitous, providential, accidental, I mean, pick your adjective. It was no intention. I had started out as a lawyer that was what I was gonna do with my life, and God interrupted me in the middle of law school and put a call to ministry on my heart. So I finished up law, went into seminary, but started at three little churches just north of Toronto. And I’m in my house right now as we’re doing this interview. It’s like 10 minutes from my house, these three little churches. We’ve lived in the same community for over 25 years. Wow. And started with these dying rural mainline churches. So just think about every stereotype that comes to mind when you think about a dying mainline rural church. Okay. I was facing that as a 30 year old a number of years ago, starting out in ministry.
CN (03:25):
And we, we just kind of saw the writing on the wall. Like I would do the circuit between these three churches on a Sunday morning. Attendance was extremely low, had been since before I was born. So one of them had six people attending on a Sunday morning regularly. Another had 14, and then the megachurch had 23. Wow. So I started, I’m the like, young 30 year old, let’s go get ’em pastor. And by the grace of God, we started to see growth almost overnight. And we soon out grew those historic buildings. We amalgamated those three churches, built a new facility, but we were part of a mainline denomination. And that’s got a lot of benefits and some challenges. So a number of us, for a variety of reasons thought it would be best to start over again. So in 2007, we rebooted and became Connexus Church, a non-denominational church.
CN (04:18):
I was the founding pastor there. A lot of those people came with me, went up and down the road. We started a multi-site thing. And that was in 2007. So that’s when the church really, it started, we, we were the fastest growing church in our denomination and one of the largest in our denomination. But when we started over again as a non-denominational church, we started to reach even more unchurched people. And I led that until 2015. And that was when I turned 50. And so I really felt it was time to hand things over to the next generation, found somebody who could do a great job as lead pastor. He’s been doing an awesome job. And then I started focusing more on this hobby, which a lot of people call a a personal brand, but it sort of developed by accident around 2012. For real. It was just a hobby of mine. I thought, I’m leading this church full-time, it’s not taking all of my time, it’s going well, but I really want to like, like start helping leaders. And so I started doing that on a semi-serious hobby basis in 2012, and it just kind of took off
RV (05:32):
Uhhuh
CN (05:34):
Podcast was 2014. So actually when we started Nexus in 2007, the denomination I was a part of said, Hey we don’t want you communicating about this new church in a church owned by our denomination. I’m like, fair enough. Blogging was fairly new in 2000. So I had a friend of me of mine who said, I’ll set, set up a blog for you. So I started blogging as a way of communicating with people who wanted to be part of this startup. And that became like a bit of a habit and a discipline for me. But then like a lot of bloggers back in the day, I’d let it slide. So in 2012, I had written my first solo book and I’d read Michael Hyatt’s platform, Uhhuh Uhhuh. And I thought, well, I probably should start blogging on a semi-serious basis. So I started doing it in the fall of 2012 and have never really looked back since.
RV (06:37):
Got it.
CN (06:38):
And, and then the podcast came two years later in 2014, fall of 2014.
RV (06:42):
Yeah. So that was you, that’s fair. Still fairly early to that, but you’ve, so you’ve been at this for 10 years. Yeah. I mean, effectively this is, this is far from an overnight success story in terms of building the audience and everything. How do you, how do you, so, so it’s interesting. So you said when you started Conexus, then you became a non-denominational, nondenom non-denominational church. Yeah. And I guess, how have you navigated, or how do you think about, or how did you think about up until 2015, the reconciling the dynamics of Carrie as a personal brand and this like leadership writer and podcaster and teacher, and then Carrie, the pastor of ConnectUS Church, and how do you d how do you, how do those overlap and how do you like draw the line between the two?
CN (07:39):
I saw the leadership aspect as a hobbyist. Okay. I needed a hobby. I had gone through burnout back in 2006, 2007, and I realized I didn’t have a hobby. So I really enjoyed writing, I love building into leaders, and I thought this’ll be my hobby. So the hobby really took off in 2012, and I literally did it in my spare time. I had six or eight weeks of vacation, I forget how much, but enough that I could squeeze the speaking into a vacation day or a Friday or another day off. And then my writing would happen in the morning. I’d hit the alarm at 5:00 AM I’d write for a couple hours, and then I would publish initially three days a week. So it totally fit into hobbyist hours. And that’s really how I saw it. And, and the truth is, even if you go to Nexus today, a lot of people have no idea. I do the whole leadership thing. They see me as the founding pastor. And when I was still the lead pastor of the church, a lot of them didn’t really track with that stuff. If they saw that I was in Atlanta or LA or a place like that, they would be like, okay, what was that about? Again? Like, they weren’t really sure because I was just their pastor and it never really bled into, not, not on a serious basis, my full-time job.
RV (09:01):
Got it. And then, and then how did your, how did your first speaking engagements come along? Like where did you, were you making like a proactive sort of outbound, I want to go speak at these places, and that happened? Or was it more organic as people had seen you at church or because they were following your podcast or your blog? Or like, when did you, and and when did your speaking career start? Like,
CN (09:24):
I guess, so my speaking career started probably, I’m gonna say, well, I’ve always done forms of it. So even in the nineties when I was starting out, because our church was growing I would get invited to go to a neighboring city and like, what, what’s your new membership process? Explain that to us. Or how are you reaching new people? And I got a text from a friend the other day, a mentor who I’ve known for over 30 years, who sent me, like, one of my early resources, it was literally, it was like a Word document with clip art. Nice. I printed out on a printer and was like three staples along the side. So I, I guess I’ve been producing resources for church leaders for a long time, and that was just an instinctive thing for me to do. It’s like, okay, if we have a resource that really worked for you or for us, I’m happy to share it with you.
CN (10:17):
So I would do that. And then I think the first time I got invited to be on a plane was maybe in 2005, 2006, Willow Creek Canada invited me to do a conference, or I would get invited to do breakout somewhere. But then I had a providential meeting in, in oh five, I met a guy named Reggie Joiner who was a co-founder of NorthPoint Church, and we became fast friends and he said, listen, I want to introduce you to my boss, Andy Stanley. Well, I’ve been following Andy for a number of years online. I met Andy, Andy and Reggie invited me to speak at NorthPoint. Then Reggie left and started Orange. He kind of recruited me to do a lot of speaking for him. And when I got on some US stages back in oh 6, 0 7, 0 8, that’s when things really started to take off.
RV (11:06):
Got it. So, and, and you met him just sort of organically at a conference or something like that?
CN (11:12):
Actually, I was doing a conference in 2004, 2005. We did this conference at our church called Generation Next because we were growing fast and one of the largest churches in the country in our denomination, we had inbound requests from coast to coast. Like, how are you doing this? How’s it growing? And I said to the team, let’s just throw a conference. So both years we had about 400 liters fly in from across Canada. And the way you do something in Canada is if you’re just a Canadian, no one’s gonna come. You have to have an American speaker, you gotta have a big time speaker. You gotta go connect with a guy like Rory to get you a keynote speaker. So I didn’t really know anybody, but I knew somebody who knew John Maxwell and John wasn’t able to come, but Tim Elmore came one year and Tim was friends with Andy Stanley tried to get Andy, Andy wasn’t traveling at the time, but he said, I won’t come, but I bet you Reggie Joiner would. So I had Reggie come up and we just became really fast friends. And then ironically invites me to meet Andy. I end up speaking at North Point. And that’s how it kind of took off. So that’s how that happened.
RV (12:22):
I
CN (12:23):
Love it. Again, I couldn’t engineer that if my life depended on it. There’s so much providence in this story. It’s, it’s unbelievable, Rory.
RV (12:30):
Totally. Well, and, and there’s, you know, there’s a couple like very consistent themes here too, though. It’s just like doing great at what’s in front of you is what opens the next door. Like you were growing the church and that’s part of why you were getting attention is you were, people were hearing and seeing that as a leader yourself, you were, you were doing great at the thing that was right in front of you. And so people wanted to know and they were inviting you, come teach us how to do that. So you were operating in your uniqueness, operating in your, in your strength. And that’s what opened the door and I, that, you know, I mean that’s, at least that’s one of the things that I’m seeing
CN (13:09):
That No, that’s exactly it. And I mean, there were a lot like, not to over glamorize anything in the early two thousands. There were a lot of church basements where an elder board would invite me in and I mean, you know, I wasn’t getting paid for those. Maybe on a good day they’d give me a Subway gift card or a a card for gas so I could get home. And it didn’t cost me anything. Lot of hundred dollars honorariums for workshops or keynotes. But again, I really enjoyed the opportunity to help other leaders. And so I’m like, yeah, I’ll, I’ll do that. And as long as it didn’t overcom compete with my family, I was very happy to do that. And most of it, for the first number of years, well probably seven, eight years, was all within a one or two hour drive of my house. It was just people who had heard word was spreading. And of course we didn’t have social media back in the nineties and early two thousands, so ideas didn’t spread as fast. But I was, you know, as far as I was concerned, that’s what I was gonna do for the rest of my life. I was gonna lead a church and if I was able to help another congregation or a presbytery a regional government or you know, someone else, then sure, I’ll, I’ll sign up for that.
RV (14:19):
Uhhuh
CN (14:25):
Oh, probably six, seven years before I ever got on an airplane to do something more.
RV (14:31):
Wow. And so that, and were those all like all for those six or seven years? All of that was mostly that kind of like honorarium gift card, maybe
CN (14:40):
A few hundred percent here. Nothing. Uhhuh
RV (14:42):
CN (14:43):
Yeah. And I just did it cuz I like helping leaders and there was again, no plan. It was just like, it was all inbound. There was no outbound, there was no website, there was no hire me, there was none of that. It was just all inbound. And actually today most of my business is inbound. Like I’ve never, I’m with the speakers bureau, but I know how that works. Nine times outta 10, it is somebody saying, okay, I want to get Carrie to speak. Okay, I gotta go through Premiere in Nashville, you know those guys right? Yeah. So away we go. And there just hasn’t been a lot of outbound. I haven’t, I haven’t like yeah, I have a website now, et cetera, et cetera. But it’s all pretty much still word of mouth.
RV (15:25):
Interesting. So when thinking about today, okay, fast forwarding today cuz you get to invited to speak at some big big events and part of how we met, where do you think most of your speaking opportunities come from? Do you think it’s more of people heard you on the podcast, they read your book, they followed your blog, they saw you preach, you know, as a pastor somewhere, they saw you speak somewhere. Is it a YouTube video? Is it social media posts that you’re making? Like are you able to kind of tie back and go in terms of generating invitations to speak today? Here is where I think they come from.
CN (16:06):
Definitely not the preaching. It’s, it’s ironic. Okay. You know, I probably, if you look at my last 27 years, I probably spent more time writing sermons than I’ve done anything. Now the reality is I think they served our local church really well and you know, you have those moments, particularly when I was in my thirties where I thought, you know, maybe one day somebody will hear a sermon or whatever. The sermons never really took off despite all the work that I, and I think I’m a decent preacher, but it was the exposure at NorthPoint Orange conference, which is Reggie Joiner’s Conference, rethink Leadership, which I’ve headed up for Orange for a number of years that probably gave me more of a national stage. And then definitely blogging, blogging’s changed a lot. I mean, blogging isn’t what it used to be 10 years ago, so I don’t blog as much anymore, but that kind of thought leadership on blogging generated a lot of inbound requests.
CN (17:04):
And then yeah, people would hear me at other conferences. They, the podcast definitely gives me, I think probably in authority in the marketplace, not because I’m talking like, I’ve already talked more on your show than I would ever talk in a 90 minute episode on my show. Right. If I’m doing my job right. Because I’m interviewing guests. Right. But I’ve had some world-class leaders on like yourself, but, you know, I, I kicked off this year with James Clear and Chris Anderson from Ted I mean we have pretty much the who’s who of whoever on my show. And it’s been fantastic. So I think it’s a combination of all of those things. And then, yeah, just like we’re, we’re, we’re, I did go with the Speaker’s bureau because they’re better at negotiating than I am. Mm-Hmm.
RV (17:59):
Mm-Hmm.
CN (19:13):
So I think Mike is a great example and I know Mike and I’ve interviewed him a few times and we’ve gone over the story that you talked about when relationship goals, this series went viral. So I’m gonna share with you nothing he hasn’t shared in public, but it’s a really helpful thing. What I see a lot of young leaders trying to do now, cuz we, we get a lot of requests in this area is like, you know, how do I grow a personal brand? A guy like Mike would be the first to tell you he had no intention of growing a personal brand. He was pastoring a church of three or 400 people at the time. And he had this series that he was really passionate about called Relationship Goals. And what he said to his elder board was, he said, Hey, more and more people are watching messages through the lens of a camera they spent, if I’ve got the number right, about $80,000 on new cameras, which is a pretty, you know, ambitious but local church thing to do.
CN (20:05):
And he said, that way when we capture the message, it’ll, it’ll look a lot better than what we have right now. So he did that and the series didn’t actually take off. It was normal Sunday at church, 250, 300 people there series was over. And then one day someone on Twitter of all places found it, tweeted it and it went viral. The snowball started rolling down the hill and it was completely, he was as shocked as anybody and took off on Twitter. Then it took off on Instagram, then it took off across all social media platforms. And his story has been, he was doing really good work as a local pastor. I would say Mike is still mostly focused on doing really good work as a local pastor, but the influence that he’s had has exploded Transformation church. I mean, they meet in an arena and they bought an office complex to house the whole infrastructure now.
CN (21:01):
But that’s an example. And, and I tell you that story to say what Mike did is on a much bigger scale, similar to what I did, just do the work, do the really good work of writing a great series for your local church. Maybe it’ll take off, maybe it won’t. I set a pretty ambitious goal 10 years ago because otherwise my hobbies die a pretty quick death. And I said, all right, when I start blogging three times a week, I want to hit a hundred thousand page views in 2013 and I might as well have said a million because it was impossible. It’s like saying, I wish it was a million dollars in my bank. You get 10 bucks in the bank, it’s like that chance that’s gonna happen. But I said, a hundred thousand is a goal. So what I did was I started sharing on social media as it was then if I wrote a new post, I’d put it on Twitter, Facebook, and then one day Instagram, when that came along and it just started to go crazy. And within a couple of months I had my first a hundred thousand page views. And then 2013 wasn’t a hundred thousand, it was a million. Now social spread ideas via blogs a lot easier 10 years ago than they do today. But that was sort of the thing, I wasn’t focused so much on acquiring an audience as I was producing the best content I knew how to produce that I thought would be helpful to other leaders.
RV (22:25):
Mm-Hmm.
CN (22:54):
Yeah. And you may not even have a, my a financial model, like for the first three or four years of this hobby I had no, I had, I had entrepreneurs in my ear on a regular basis. Good friends who are like, Carrie, you got a million people visiting your website, you gotta monetize this, you gotta monetize your blog, you gotta monetize the podcast. And I was drawing a salary at the church I mean, wasn’t a huge salary, but we were able to pay our bills and save to put our kids through school. I had some speaking income that was definitely, you know, not what I get today for doing a keynote at a conference. But it was meaningful enough. And I made a decision early on. I’m like, I’m not gonna monetize because my currency is trust and what I want to build is I want to build a readership, a listenership, and I want to build trust with my audience.
CN (23:46):
I want them to know that they can trust in my content, not everything’s for sale. They can trust in the guests that I bring to the podcast. And so for a couple years I didn’t monetize anything and then when I was ready to monetize, I had choice cuz I had this big audience. I didn’t have to jump at $10. I could go and interview different people who were interested in partnering with me. And you know, we joke about it with my team all the time. I’ve left a lot of money on the table because I’m like, I don’t think this is the right fit for my audience and I won’t do a deal if I don’t think it’s the right deal for my audience. So what I would do is focus on your craft, do really good work, focus on building an audience, and the monetization will eventually take care of itself.
RV (24:34):
Mm-Hmm.
CN (24:44):
Well, it’s changing. It’s changing pretty rapidly. So before we used to have ads on the blog and that kind of stuff, and we don’t anymore. If you go to our website, a lot of that is our internal product. So the financial model for what I do now has changed dramatically in the last seven years since I focused on this pretty much full-time. Used to be mostly speaking income, little bit of sponsorship income on the podcast these days because the podcast is so big and has a lot of influence and authority in our field. We take a couple of partners, we call them partners, not sponsors per episode. So I’ll have two ads read by me per episode. And you know, it’s not cheap to be on my podcast, but it’s not cheap now because I didn’t take anything at the beginning. I banked all of this trust and almost 30 million downloads later.
CN (25:37):
Mm-Hmm. Now I can say, this is what it costs to get on the podcast. And we sell out every year really before January 1st. People are itching to get on. We also, because I limit it too, I’ve had people say, well you can do a third ad or you can do a mid-roll. And I’m like, nah, I don’t wanna exhaust my audience and I wanna make it meaningful. So I do those reads all the time. We also have a newsletter, a sponsored newsletter that I started every Friday called On the Rise. And in it I find really curious, interesting articles that I’ve enjoyed on the internet. I’ll link to them. These are all outbound links. And then there’s a partner link in that as well has an excellent open rate. And so we’re able to monetize that just one outta maybe 5, 6, 7 links will be a partner link.
CN (26:25):
And we’re transparent about it. And then once in a while we send out a dedicated email on behalf of a partner. And then there’s speaking income. And then I have my own platform. I got into courses about five years ago. And so courses eventually became the Art of Leadership Academy. It’s a membership site and that generates about half the revenue in the company these days. So that’s sort of how we did monetization. But we did it very slowly very experimentally and little bit of trial and error. You know, there was one, one or two sponsors I had in the early days of the podcast where we were getting feedback from. And these were, I don’t wanna say who it was, but I mean, I used to listen to this company, advertise on other podcasts so bad on me. I didn’t do my due diligence. We got complaints from listeners who said, Hey, I used this agency service wasn’t what I thought. And I’m like, that’s it, you’re fired. You’re off the podcast. That’s it. You’re disappointing our clients. And we went without revenue for a month or two and then we found another partner to fill that gap down the road. But I think because we’ve done that so well, we’re able to monetize with some integrity what we’re doing. And our audience now trusts us. And that’s what our partners tell us is like, your audience takes action.
RV (27:41):
Uhhuh
CN (27:46):
How do you, we have someone in-house who helps with that. At the very beginning we did that through an agency associated with a company in Atlanta. And then in 2017 I bought all that out. And I have a guy who helps me. He’s sort of on our team. He works with a lot of different organizations. He’ll do the leads and then we’re developing our own internal team to handle all of that in-house now.
RV (28:08):
Interesting. And so you’re
CN (28:09):
Just Yeah, so we’re not, we’re not like part of a network like HubSpot or that kind of thing that, that sells ads. Again, because we’re such a niche market, it’s mostly you’re either a pastor or a church leader who works at a church or you’re a guy like you. If, if you listen to my show, so you’re all about the church even though you don’t work in the church. So we’re either entrepreneurs who do what you do or we’re people who work at churches and that’s a very high value audience to a select group of people in the marketplace.
RV (28:39):
And so you basically just say, this is my audience who, what companies or organizations wanna reach my audience? And then you just like contact, just email ’em or phone call ’em
CN (28:52):
Actually, actually Brad Loick does that work for us. And mostly it’s, it’s again, inbound to pick up on a theme that we’ve talked about. We, I don’t, I think I can honestly say I haven’t pursued anybody. They have pursued us.
RV (29:05):
Gotcha. Uhhuh
CN (29:08):
I haven’t personally, I don’t know a hundred percent what Brad does, but mostly it’s people approaching us. And so I recruited Brad to sort of be the go-between cuz I don’t wanna be involved in the negotiation
RV (29:21):
Mm-Hmm.
CN (29:39):
Yeah. And that’s all in-house two. We and my team’s small. There’s six of us, seven of us, so that’s it. And we keep it in-house, we keep it small. It’s grown as a company, as has grown. A few years ago it was me and a couple of assistants and then we started hiring some leaders to really lead. But yeah, I’m very, very proud of the team and what they’ve been able to accomplish. And that allows me to really focus on what I do, which is interview people, write content, serve the members in the academy, and try to deliver great keynotes when I speak at conferences or events
RV (30:14):
Mm-Hmm.
CN (30:22):
Yeah, two kids. They’re grown, actually. My youngest works with me. So that’s, that’s a fun part of running the company. He’s 27 and my 31 year old’s a software engineer. So he works outside the company.
RV (30:32):
Uhhuh,
CN (30:36):
Speak? I could speak a lot more. Our mutual friend John ak, like he’s on a plane almost every week and that kind of thing. And, and he and I catch up on this all the time. I think it works best for me if I’m speaking one or two times a month. Yeah. Nine times outta 10 in the US I do a little bit of international, I’m already lined up for Australia, New Zealand and Germany in 2024. A big like one month road trip. That’s gonna be a lot of fun. But for the most part, like I’m flying to Tennessee next week, it’ll be great. And then I’m on, I’m at home for another three weeks and then I’ll go to Atlanta and then we’ll fly from Atlanta up to Northern California and I’ll do an event there. And then I’m back for another three weeks and then down to Orlando. So that’s a pretty typical rhythm for me. And we say no to about 90% of all speaking engagements.
RV (31:26):
And then books. You also have books on top of all that. So you’ve got books.
CN (31:30):
Yeah, I got five, five books that I’ve written.
RV (31:33):
Uhhuh,
CN (32:24):
Yeah, so that’s, that’s a really interesting thing. So I mean, my old denomination, we used to call it pulpit supply and I used to do a lot of that when I was a pastor where, you know, for a couple hundred bucks, you speak at my church, I’ll speak at your church or whatever. I think with mega churches there is guest preaching that happens where you bring people in. I almost always say no to that. I can’t think of the last time I did guest preaching. Interesting. And the reason is, you
RV (32:51):
Mean you going there or someone coming to connect us?
CN (32:54):
Oh no, we, my successor, I, I used to bring people in to guest preach at our church, and my successor has definitely done his share of that, which I think is awesome. Okay. I don’t see that as my personal calling. I feel like my personal calling is to help leaders that I’m there to serve leaders. And it’s not that there’s not leaders on a Sunday morning in a church, but I, I really feel like if you’re doing a conference to the second part of your question, that’s more my jam. That’s what I love. I love talking to leaders. I love it when the leaders of a church or the leaders from industry gather and we get to talk or where sometimes that, that’s often hosted. Occasionally it’s hosted by churches. I did an event in Indianapolis that was hosted by a church and they invited business leaders and church leaders from their area.
CN (33:44):
But often I’m just speaking to church leaders or to bus, well I’m speaking to industry leaders too. So I’m speaking to Christian broadcast executives. I’ve done a number of events like that over the last few years. Or I’ll speak to chartered accountants who have a faith base or I’ll speak to just pastors who have gathered for a conference. And sometimes that’s hosted as a separate K not-for-profit or a for-profit company. Sometimes that hosted by marketplace people. Occasionally it’s hosted by a church, but that would be more of the kind of speaking that I do. Mm-Hmm.
RV (34:30):
A rule, but, but that, that is a business model. You can get paid to go guest preach yet.
CN (34:34):
Oh, there are people who, yeah, they would be itinerant teachers and they could go and, you know, speak almost every weekend at a church around the country. I’m, I’m just don’t feel like that’s a good calling for me.
RV (34:48):
Ah-Huh
CN (35:02):
Probably. You know, I’m not really in that field so I couldn’t tell you. Yeah. But like the conference circuit would definitely, I assume pay more more. Yeah. And you know, it would be like, well, you know, premier speakers and agencies like that, that it would be more like what you get paid at a leadership conference wouldn’t be quite what you get paid to keynote at a business conference, but it would be more on par with that.
RV (35:26):
Yeah. Yeah. I love it when we have, I mean, when Crosspoint in Nashville we have, we have guest preachers come in probably, I don’t know, maybe like four or five times a year. And it’s always, it’s always great. It’s always great. We had Lisa Harper this last weekend and do you, have you ever met her? Do you know Lisa Harper?
CN (35:42):
I haven’t, but I have all kinds of friends who know her and I Oh man. She’s hilarious and brilliant and wonderful.
RV (35:48):
Yes. Hilarious, brilliant Moving. I mean it was, it was such an incredible, such an incredible sermon. And
CN (35:56):
See and that is such a gift and like, it’s, it’s really interesting because you know, when I was, for the three years that I was still a lead pastor, I would work like crazy on a sermon and you know, we’d get maybe 1500 people who heard it or watched it or something like that. And that was great. And then I’d whip off a blog post in an hour and a half at 6:00 AM one morning and post it and the next week a hundred thousand people would’ve read it
RV (37:11):
Yeah. I mean, I doing the sermons, man writing a new 20 minute speech every week. Like that’s not for the faint of heart that is. So,
CN (37:19):
But I did it for 30 years, so I’m like done.
RV (37:22):
Yeah. It’s, that’s, it’s, it is really, really hard to to, to do that. And
CN (37:27):
To the same people. Like when you’re Yeah. When you’re doing the conference thing, like I give a version of the same three talks wherever I go. Right. Usually have two or three that are kind of your current roster. And I’ll vary it by the event, but like I get to tell the same stories, the same jokes Yes. All that stuff because 98% of the audience has never heard you and that’s what they expect you to do. When you’re a conference speaker and you’re doing the circuit, it’s kinda like going to see Coldplay or Taylor Swift, you know, Taylor Swift to better do shake it off or you want your money back. Right. And so there are talks that I’ve been known for on the conference circuit and they want me to do them and I actually really enjoy it because I know I’m gonna help everybody in the audience. It’s sort of like, oh, I know where this is going. I know this is really gonna help people. We’re gonna have a great time together. Whereas, you know, if you’re preaching 40 Sundays a year, you’re kind of hoping this thing’s gonna connect, but you don’t know. It’s a very special thing, a really great period of my life, but like not anxious to go back
RV (38:25):
There. Interesting. Interesting. Well man, it, the this has been, this has been an awesome sort of journey down. I’m just always curious about the path of past, you know, pastor to leadership, you know, consultant and teacher and, you know this is, this has been super inspiring. Where do you want people to go, Carrie, if they want to connect with you and like link up with what you’re doing?
CN (38:54):
So my name is really easy to spell. Just go to carrie new h.com or you can go to the art of leadership academy.com. You’ll, you’ll find us there. Also Carrie New H Leadership podcast anywhere you listen to your podcast.
RV (39:07):
Yeah, yeah. It’s a great, a great, great show. Man, it’s been, it’s been so wonderful to get to know you a little bit and, and to be your pal and thanks for the work that you’re doing and, and all the people that you’re inspiring and r and thanks for being here and just sort of sharing like a little bit of behind the scenes of how Carrie New H became ke new H Man. It’s, it’s been awesome.
CN (39:28):
Well, it’s an absolute joy to be with you Rory. Thanks for having me.
Ep 359: Developing a Mindset of Persistence | Annie F. Downs Episode Recap
RV (00:02):
Some of my favorite interviews on this podcast and show are the ones where we get to hear the story about how a mission-driven messenger or personal brand started in the very beginning. And if you haven’t yet, make sure you go back and listen to the interview that I just did with Annie F Downs, because that’s the story that she tells about how she got started, how she made her first dollars. And I, it’s just so, so inspiring and, um, and actually inspired me. And so I’m gonna share with you some of my, some of my thoughts and highlights from, from the show, uh, from that interview. And then also just kind of like some of the things I want to add to it and, and share with you. Um, the very first thing that I wanna do is something very tactical. I wanna share with you some of the data about podcast advertising dollars, um, because that came up in our conversation.
RV (00:53):
She hosts a podcast and she also runs a podcast network. And so we were talking about monetizing a podcast. Um, and so I asked her in the interview, you know, how much do you charge for the ads? And how much can you really make as a podcaster and when do you start making money, et cetera. Um, and, you know, she, she openly admitted. She’s like, I don’t really like know all of those, those specifics, um, you know, off the top of my head. But, um, you know, she threw out some numbers. And, and then, um, we actually, at Brand Builders Group, we have a course called Podcast Power. And you know, this is where we teach people one, one of, we have 14 courses in our full curriculum, right? So our members who are, uh, paying members of our, of our membership community, they get access to 14 courses.
RV (01:35):
And one of ’em is Podcast Power, and we have a whole section in there on advertising dollars. And so I didn’t know the numbers off the top of my head, but I went ahead and went into the course, grabbed that specific section, and I wanted to share a couple of those with you just since it came up in the, in the, in the interview. Um, and it, it admittedly, you know, making money from podcast ads is, is a little bit of like a gray box because it’s, it’s not like it’s, I guess it’s a free market system, right? Like so many things, um, there, there’s not a, a hard and fast rule of how it has to be. Um, it’s driven by supply and demand, and it’s driven by like how many, what your show is about and how much advertisers want you, and they want access to your audience and how convicted they are that your audience is the right fit for them, et cetera, et cetera.
RV (02:21):
So, um, that’s part of what it comes down to. But, um, I did wanna just share with you these are, these are the numbers that we, we share with our paying clients, right? So, and, and if you are one of our members, you can go into podcast Power in our workbook. It’s on page 42, um, of, uh, that workbook’s 137 pages, which, you know, obviously we’ve got lots and lots of content we’re teaching y’all. But, um, so the number that we were using in that conversation with Annie was if you’ll have a podcast that gets about 10,000 downloads per episode, and I loved what she said, and I would edify what she said, that basically the first week, uh, will be a number. So let’s say like 5,000, whatever the number of downloads you get that first week will probably double over the next nine weeks.
RV (03:08):
So if you get 5,000 on the first week, then you probably will get another 5,000 over the next nine weeks. And that’s, we see that to be, you know, about right, too, just like, you know, using rough numbers. So we’ll use 10,000 downloads per episode. Um, right? So if you’re doing an episode every week, that means you’re getting around like 40,000 downloads a month. So that’s a, you know, that might take a couple years to get to give or take some, depending on what your topic is and your, you know, who you are, et cetera, and, uh, your network. But, um, for a 15 second ad, um, and this is what we did, is we sort of pulled together data from our, uh, clients and we work with, you know, some of the biggest podcasters in the world, our clients of ours. And, um, you know, we got hundreds of of members.
RV (03:53):
So we, we see this, but it’s, you know, this is, again, this isn’t like scientific per se. This is our poll of our community to try to put some real numbers to something that’s kind of an obscure conversation. Um, that for a 15 second ad, um, that, uh, if you, if you did four episodes a month, so we’ll just stay there, we’ll just say, if you had 10,000 downloads an episode and then you were doing four episodes a month, an advertiser might pay you around $720 a month, um, which would be, you know, like for four episodes, like $180 per episode. And if you were doing four episodes a month and they wanted, they wanted all four, if they wanted a spot on all four, then you might make $720 per 15 second ad per advertiser, right? So if, if it goes up to a, if a 60, that’s for a 60, a 15 second ad read, if you were looking for like a 62nd ad read, um, those, uh, uh, come out to approximately like $25 each, like, you know, for like a A C P M, right?
RV (05:02):
And so if you go, all right, if we’re gonna have 10,000 downloads per episode, then you would, you, an advertiser might pay, uh, 250 an episode or a thousand dollars a month to be on all four of your episodes. So, you know, Annie off the top of her head, she said, yeah, if you have a podcast that’s getting 10,000 downloads an episode and you have an episode coming out every single week, then you know, I said, what would that podcast make in a year? And she was, she was reluctant to answer, but she threw out a number that was, uh, I think she said like maybe $40,000 a year is what that podcast would make. Um, and you know, when I went and looked up our data and what, what we actually formally teach, um, so we’re seeing around a thousand dollars a month for one 62nd ad read.
RV (05:53):
So that would be $12,000 a year, but that’s only for one 62nd ad read. So if you had three 62nd ad reads, um, in each episode, that would be $3,000 a month or $36,000 a year. So I actually think she was pretty close. I actually think that’s about right. Um, and for those of you that are podcasters are aspiring podcasters, you know, anyone who’s an experienced podcaster knows that if you start the year with 10,000 downloads an episode, it’s gonna grow. And it, it’s always, it’s one of the beauties of the podcasting medium is it’s constantly growing and, um, it’s just a snowball that builds and builds and builds and it’s a really, really beautiful and wonderful medium in that way. So, um, yeah, so that is, uh, you know, a, a good, a good rule of thumb if you get up to a hundred thousand downloads an episode, you know, you multiply that by 10, now you’re talking about making, you know, $10,000 a month per advertiser, uh, which would be like 400.
RV (06:51):
If you had four of those on each episode, that’d be like $400,000 a month or 5 million bucks a year. Like that would be pretty massive. So it may not scale quite up to that, but that’s, you know, you can make real money over it long term. But in the short term, if you’re podcasting, you’re not gonna make much money from advertisers cuz you’re not in front of that many people, right? They’re paying C P m, which is cost per thousand impressions. So you don’t, if you don’t have thousands of downloads, then you’re not getting, you’re not getting many impressions and they’re not gonna be paying you, uh, much for those, right? So, um, that is a little bit of data there. And if you’re an early podcaster, and even if you’re an experienced podcaster, right? Like our, our podcast gets, you know, well north of, of that number, but we don’t, um, we don’t have ads on our show other than our own ads.
RV (07:39):
And so we offer just people, uh, our various free training and we give them a chance to, um, you know, uh, learn from us or engage with us or request a free call at some point. That’s what we really want you to do, right? We want you to go to free brand call.com/podcast and request a call to say, Hey, we’d love to talk to you about what is your dream, what is your vision, um, to build your personal brand and monetize it, and then talk to you about how we do that and how we help people all the way from the biggest personal brands in the world down to people who are just starting out. And we’ve got stuff for, um, every different budget. So anyways, if that’s you, let this be our ad read, uh, here in this and go to free brand call.com/podcast and request a call with us.
RV (08:19):
So I hope that is, I hope that is helpful for you. That was something I wanted to make sure and look up, um, and give to you the, the, the next thing that I was inspired by listening to that, uh, you know, re-listening to that interview, re going over my notes with, uh, uh, Annie and was just, you know, she said something and it was kind of like quick, but she said, get help before you can afford help get help before you can afford help. And this really reminded me of a concept that is in my second book, which is Procrastinated on Purpose, five Permissions to Multiply Your Time. And in that book, which is also based on the, uh, which my, my, my viral TED talk is based on my, my TED Talk’s called How to Multiply Time. Um, we talk a lot about the concept of getting help in your life, um, like extra hands to help you with things and hiring people to do it.
RV (09:15):
And what people always say is they say, I can’t afford it. Like they say, Rory, I would love to hire someone to help clean my house, do my landscaping, edit my videos, write my copy, do my website, et cetera, et cetera. And they say, well, the problem is, I, I can’t afford it. And so I want to reintroduce or remind you, or if you’ve never read my book, um, that second book, the, I want to introduce to you the concept of mvat, M V O T and m OT stands for the money value of time. Now, the, the concept of the money value of time, first of all, should not be confused with the time value of money. The concept of the time value of money is about knowing what is $1 worth today out in the future based on some assumptions of compounding interest.
RV (10:03):
And that’s a powerful concept also, but not what I’m talking about here, right? That’s the time value of money is basically knowing what, uh, an amount of money will be worth at some point in the future, um, based on, you know, compounding interest. M v OT or money value of time is just a very, very, it’s a much simpler calculation and it’s a much simpler assumption and a much simpler thing. It’s a much simpler thing to explain, which is just that all of us have an hourly rate of pay, all of us do. Now, you might not get paid hourly, right? You might be a salesperson on commission, you might be an owner who’s on profits. Um, you, you, you might be, you know, and, and, and an investor who gets dividends, like, uh, we get paid in different ways, but all of us can figure out what our hourly rate of pay is if you just take the total amount of money you earned, right?
RV (11:02):
Whatever you earned in income, and you divide that by the total amount of hours that you’ve worked for a year. Um, and to do it quickly, you know, rough math here is to use the number 2080 for the number of working hours in a year. So if you just approximately, you know, did you take 200 2080? That’s about what HR professionals use to estimate the number of working hours in a year. And if you take that amount and you divide that, uh, take your total income and divide it by 2080, it’ll give you your hourly rate of pay. And what you’ll find is, let’s just say somebody, if, if somebody makes like $150,000 a year, okay? So if you made a $150,000 a year divided by 2080, then that means you make $72 an hour. Let’s say if you make $75,000 a year and you divide that by 2080, that means you make $36 an hour, right?
RV (12:02):
For the, for the, the, the time that you’re working. So here’s the thing, as people always say, I can’t afford it, I can’t afford to hire somebody else, but the the key insight is to realize you already are affording it. You already are affording it. You are paying somebody to do that work. You are either paying someone else at their rate of pay or you are paying yourself at yours. Because if you are using an hour of your time to, to complete any task, I don’t care what the task is. If, if you are completing a task, then the opportunity cost of your time is equivalent to whatever your mvo is, is to say, if, if instead of mowing the yard for an hour, if I took that hour and I use that hour and reinvested it into work and to income generating things on average, that’s the hourly rate of pay I make.
RV (13:00):
So the way to think about it is to realize, you know, if you make $75,000 a year, every hour that you’re doing something is you’re paying $36 an hour to do that task. It’s like a, it’s like a, a price of admission. You’re saying, oh, I’m gonna pay $36 and I’m hiring my, you know, I’m hiring myself to do this. Whereas if I could hire somebody for less than that rate of pay to do that task for me, then I could reallocate that time and I could reinvest that time into things that generate income or generate more money at that rate of pay my mvo or higher. And what you find is that if you do that over the course of time, then your mbot gets higher and higher and higher because you spend more and more of your time. You spend a higher percentage of your time focused on higher income p earning activities, and you spend a lower and lower percentage of your time on non-income producing activities.
RV (13:58):
And then you are you. But that work still needs to be done. It just doesn’t need to be done by you and you’re able to afford it by reallocating your time into higher profit activities. That is the concept of mbot that is, uh, in the delegate chapter, uh, along with another powerful rule called the 30 x rule. In my second book, procrastinate on Purpose, five permissions to Multiply Your Time. But I bring it up here because this is the conversation that Annie was saying is she was saying, I always by help before I can afford help, and that is how it has been with me too. I’ve never felt like I have extra money around to hire the next person. We don’t, but we know we need the help in order to grow. And so what happens is I’m always trying to minimize my lifestyle expenses, right, in order to create more that I can reinvest into hiring people to help us get things done.
RV (14:56):
When you do that over and over and over again, at some point it catches up and now you have people who are getting things done and making things happen, and now you start to make more money and you’re making money off of the system that you’ve built right off of the network or the infrastructure or the, or the organization or the company, because you’ve got a group of people who are all doing things and they’re, you are paying them. That’s, that is what an entrepreneur, that’s what it means to be an entrepreneur. You’re giving life to, uh, jobs around you. You’re a job creator. And Annie’s story was that she, she talked about how she couldn’t even afford to pay her assistant. She could barely afford to pay her assistant. Um, when she first was getting speaking gigs, most of the money was going to the person who was booking the gigs for her. And I’m not saying that I like it. I’m not saying that that’s how it should be. I’m just saying that’s how it is.
RV (15:56):
And if you’re serious about changing the world, if you’re serious about being a mission-driven messenger, if you’re serious about like wanting to do good work in the world, you are gonna have to make sacrifices and you’re gonna have to make short-term sacrifices in exchange for the long-term payoffs that come, which is money, it’s influence, it’s impact, it’s income, it’s purpose, it’s peace. It’s all the things that are these beautiful rewards that show up from, from doing it. But there’s a price that you have to pay right there. There’s, there is sacrifices required. This comes from my first book, take the Stairs, the Pain Paradox. The Pain Paradox says that one of the key mindsets of UL ultra performers, one of the key distinctions that UL Ultra performers have made is they realize that, that the short-term easy leads to the long-term difficult. Meanwhile, difficult short-term choices lead to easy, long-term consequences.
RV (16:55):
And so you gotta make that choice. And that pulls me right into, you know, the third thing I wanted to share with you about what it takes to make it on this journey as a mission-driven messenger. And at the very end of the interview with Annie, I said, Hey, if there was somebody out there right now who’s in, you know, struggling in that moment, what would you tell? What would you tell them? And effectively what she shared is you have to make a decision that you’re not gonna quit at some point in your career, at some point in your life, you have to resolve, you have to conclude. You, you have to come to a, a summary analysis that says, I will not be stopped. I will not quit. I will not give up. I will not abandon. I will stay, I will fortify, I will edify, I will solidify this commitment.
RV (17:57):
I’m not going anywhere. You can’t get rid of me, right? There’s no one in this world who can stop you except you. You are the one ultimately who gives up. You’re the one who ultimately fires yourself. You’re the one who ultimately calls it quits. No one else can do that for you. They can bounce you around from different opportunities and close certain doors, but at the end of the day, you are the one that decides if you’re gonna be successful or not. And you decide and you resolve that you’re gonna keep going even when it’s hard. You, you have to, you have to reach this point in your life. You have to reach this time where you say, I don’t care if it’s difficult, I’m gonna succeed. Even if it’s difficult. I don’t care if it’s inconvenient. I’m gonna succeed even if it’s inconvenient. I don’t care if I’m having a hard time affording it.
RV (18:45):
I don’t care if there’s rejection, I don’t care if there’s fear. I don’t care if I am tired, if I’m exhausted, I don’t care. I am going to rise above that. I am going to succeed in spite of that, I am going to do it anyway. And that is what it takes. That is what it takes to be successful in this industry or any industry. It is that personal resolve that, that discipline, that commitment, that vision and that that persistence to just say, I am going to rise above all that. If the world throws this and that and whatever at me, it doesn’t matter. I will not be stopped. You can’t stop me. I’m going to do everything in my power. Then I’m gonna find a way or I’m gonna die trying. Nobody is gonna wave their wand over you and say, you deserve to be a a messenger.
RV (19:34):
You deserve to be an author. You deserve to be a speaker. Right? You, if you’re waiting for that, you’re gonna wait your whole life. Stop waiting for that and go get it and decide. The only person who waves that wand is you. And you. You wake up and you say, this is what I’m gonna do with my life. I’m gonna inspire people, I’m gonna help people. I’m gonna make a difference. And I will not be stopped. I might get rerouted, I might get tired, I might have setbacks. It might be hard, it might be difficult, inconvenient, uncomfortable, challenging, and it might be scary, but it doesn’t matter. This is the life that I choose for myself. I am in charge and I have a future that I’m pursuing and I am writing my story and I am the author and I decide that this is how it’s going to be. I’m gonna make it. Even if it’s hard, nobody else can do that for you except you.
RV (20:41):
And that is the power that you do have. That power. And, and listening to Annie’s story was just such a great fresh reminder of that to me, right? She was a four-time author, right? She had an agent and four book deals and she could barely, she was barely making it. And now, you know, you see her, she’s on stage in front of thousands of people and she’s got this huge podcast in this amazing network, all these great opportunities. She’s inspiring people, she’s changing lives. Like she’s doing all these wonderful things. And people see and they go, well, I could do that, I could do that. Right? They look at her on stage like, that looks like so much fun. I could do that. Why? How come I can’t do that? Cuz that’s not the job. The job is overcoming the fear. The job is overcoming the inconvenience.
RV (21:28):
The the hard part is all the parts you don’t see. It’s not given up when most people will, right? It’s not accepting someone else’s rejection as, as permanent. It’s realizing it’s just temporary. It’s just a redirection. And you can make that decision right now. And if that’s you and you are ready to make that decision, I would say the first thing you should do is you should come and join us because we are among the very best in the world, if not the best in the world, at helping mission-driven messengers to reach more people and to make this dream come true. We know a lot about it. We’ve done it, we’re doing it. We have several people doing it. We, we, we can help. But you gotta make that decision that you’re not gonna be stopped. So I hope you do that. If you’re ready to make that decision, go to free brand call.com/podcast, request a call with our team.
RV (22:22):
Uh, if not, if you’re not quite at that point, um, just keep tuning in and keep hanging out and keep learning, um, and keep, uh, checking in on these amazing guests and these inspiring stories. We’re so grateful for you that you’re here. Um, share this episode with somebody who needs it. If you would go share, go tell Annie, uh, go find Annie on social media and send her some love. Let her know that you heard her, her on the Influential Personal Brand podcast. Um, and just give her a thanks for showing up and being a part of, uh, this amazing community. So, you know, they, these folks do it for free. They come on here because we’re friends and because they wanna help other people just like you. We’ll catch you next time on the Influential Personal Brand podcast.
Ep 358: How to Build a Bestselling Brand in the Christian Market with Annie F. Downs
RV (00:02):
Well, if you have listened to this show for any amount of time, you know that I am a hardcore Bible thump in Jesus freak. It’s true. We are at Vaden villa and our church that we go to in Nashville is called Crosspoint Church. I’ve been on the board there for several years and one of our teaching pastors and leaders of the church has been a friend of mine who I have admired from afar for years. We’ve gotten to know each other a little bit. Her name is Annie F Downs. That is our guest today. You’re going to hear from her. So she is a New York Times bestselling author. She speaks all over the country. She does sermons, she does Christian conferences, a couple business gigs every year. She has an Damazing podcast like the Lineup of People on her podcast.
RV (00:45):
Her podcast is called. That Sounds Fun. And she also has a podcast network called the That Sounds Fun Network of which one of our other one of our clients, Matthew West, who’s like I’ve got major, major man crush on Matthew West
AFD (01:25):
Rory. That was the kindest introduction. You could just make me cry sitting right here. Thank you very much.
RV (01:30):
Well, you’re awesome buddy. And then you also do weddings cuz we saw you at Chris and our, our, some of our best, best friends, Chris and Lexi got married and then we’re like, what
Speaker 3 (01:39):
Annie’s doing this? How did, wait, you know, that, how did this, how
RV (01:43):
Did this happen? So,
AFD (01:44):
Hey, that’s so fun. It’s such a gift. I got started the ordination process through Crosspoint a couple of years ago because two of my friends got engaged on the same weekend and they both asked me to do their weddings. And I was like I can’t do weddings. Let me make a call
RV (02:13):
So tell me a little bit about all the things you’re going on. So like, when you think of like Annie f Downs, just give us a lay of the landscape and, and you know, I think I share with you a little bit like there’s a lot of people who listen to this show. We, we haven’t talked much about how the, the church market and the faith market and just in spirituality conference, you know, in general. Yeah. so tell us like what makes up the landscape of everything, the moving parts of the N E F Downs Empire?
AFD (02:41):
Yeah. I think that’ll help for people to kind of get a picture of what the businesses look like because we are not a ministry, we are a business. Got it. I get to do ministry work, I get to do work that is faith-based, but we want to run really successful businesses. Got it. And I think there’s a different responsibility and a different expectation when someone thinks you’re running a ministry than a business. Maybe it’s just in my own brain. Sure. And so I’m like, oh no, I wanna run a really good business.
AFD (03:24):
And so it’s called Downs Books Incorporated. Inside of Downs Books is all the writing I do. Okay. All the speaking I do. And that, that sounds fun. Podcast and the, let’s read the Gospels podcast. So everything I make and everything my team makes is under the Downs Books co company. Got it. What is also in our office is my manager Kelly Haywood has K c h entertainment here too. So she has, I have five employees at Downs Books. She has four that help kind of run the high level things, right. Like they, when we launched the, let’s read the Gospels podcast, they’re the ones figuring out how do we do the website and how do we do the graphics and how do we, so they’re kind of the behind the scenes machine for a lot of what we do. They do what you hear music managers do or managers for people on tv. It’s, it’s the same relationship. It’s a management relationship.
RV (04:16):
Interesting.
AFD (04:16):
And then across the hall, is that, that sounds fun. Network, a podcast network for our friends listening who don’t know, it really works just like a TV network where all the shows have something in common, but they’re different. And what a network a allows is community and income because we also have a sales team that helps get advertising. So we have 17 shows on the network, although that sounds fun. Network. And we have five employees over there as well. And so we’re helping these 17 shows to help them book guests. Sometimes we help them meet each other so they can be on each other’s shows. We help them find ad partners that are really good fits for their content and their audience. And so that’s what we, we get to do. I’m, I’m a co co-owner and a founder of the Network. Okay. Both of my shows are on the network, but I’m not in the, like, daily running of that company.
RV (05:08):
Got it. Got it. Yeah, that’s really interesting. I didn’t even know that you had that. So Yes. So,
AFD (05:15):
And then I also teach at Crosspoints. I’m also on the T team. That’s
RV (05:18):
And you do weddings. Yeah.
AFD (05:19):
And I do weddings.
RV (05:20):
Right, right. Occasionally. Occasionally. That’s the other part. For close, for close friends. That’s right. And then, so, so let’s talk. So let’s go to Downs Books. Okay. And let’s talk, let’s talk in there. Cause that sounds like that’s sort of the core of like where you’re spending’s righting your, your time. Yes. how did you start, like, and, and how did you make your first dollars? Right? Like Yeah. Go all the way back to the beginning and like mm-hmm.
AFD (05:52):
Yeah. You know what you’re gonna love Roy, I think I may have told you this in our real life before, but I, when my fourth book released, I also applied to teach at the parent teacher store in Green Hills because I didn’t have enough money to pay my assistant. Wow. So, so it has been, I mean, it is not one of those like, and your listeners and friends probably know, like, it’s not one of those, like when you get your book deal, there you go. It’s like, no, the, if your book deal is, if your book’s coming out in a year and you get a $10,000 book deal, I’m just making an easy number. I mean, you’re, after you pay your agent, which you should have an agent and you should pay your agent once they get their percent. And once you pay taxes, you’ve made $5,000 in a year.
RV (06:59):
AFD (07:01):
Then I was like, that
RV (07:01):
Was your first book. That was your first book.
AFD (07:02):
Yes. Yes. Okay. And I thought, this isn’t working. And you know, you, you don’t pay your agent. You the, you know, the agent takes a percent. And so at this point I’m saying to my agent, you’re not making any money and I’m not getting the right books. So what are we doing? So, so we made, I made no money through this until a couple of years later. I mean, I was writing I was writing like for like one of those Groupon kind of websites. Okay. I was writing ads for them. So I was making like a, a small income off of that.
RV (07:37):
But not like your con not your content. You were just doing copywriting for
AFD (07:41):
Something? No, no, no. I did copywriting for probably three years behind the scenes while in front of the scenes. I’m trying to author and travel and speak. Yeah. My book does get picked up by a publisher in 2011. After I self-publish it, I self-publish it. Cause I was like, at this point I’ve written the book. I have an audience of a couple of thousand people who have been with me in this journey. I just want a book that my grandkids can have on their bookshelf that my, that their grandmother wrote one time. Right?
RV (08:09):
Yeah.
AFD (08:10):
When we put it on Amazon in the first quarter, I put it up in quarter four because I wanted to hit holidays. Okay. And it was for teen girls. And we sold about 2,500 in that quarter.
RV (08:21):
Wow.
AFD (08:22):
And when that happened, a publisher said, I’m sorry, we said no to that. We didn’t know you would sell the books. Right. And you sell the books. And so they came back, Zondervan signed me for a book deal in the winter of 11. And the book came out in August of 2012. And my first book deal, my advance was $7,000.
RV (08:45):
Nice.
AFD (08:47):
So I
RV (08:48):
Filling in to go.
AFD (08:49):
Yeah. I seriously thought, here we go.
RV (08:52):
So like that was at least, I can’t believe it, over the course of three or four years. Years, that’s like 65 cents an hour. I mean, some somewhere. It was wild. Somewhere in there.
AFD (08:59):
Yeah. Yes, yes. So what ends up happening though is, and I don’t know this behind the scenes, what I know is I’ve gotten a book deal offer and then I get a phone call from the publisher that says, Hey, would you like to travel and speak on a Teen girl tour? And it’s every other weekend for the school year. And I thought, well, yeah, the here’s I, I thought I wasn’t gonna get to do this anymore. And suddenly I see this job for the next year. And what had happened, Rory, is the publisher had made a deal with a record label here in town that had point of grace on it, the word word record label. And it was a conference called Girls of Grace that was for teen girls. Huh. And the sponsorship deal included a speaking spot. So Zondervan was a sponsor of the tour. Ah. The sponsorship included a bunk on a bus and a 20 minute slot. And I was the only new author that lived in Nashville. Wow. And so I was the only one who could bus out
RV (10:00):
AFD (10:03):
That’s right. I’ll take it. Cause built So was your cause built the whole thing.
RV (10:06):
So that wasn’t until 2013 then?
AFD (10:08):
Yes, 2012 and 2013. The book came out in ap August of 12. And the tour started then. And so what I would do in every city, Rory, is I, we would get there on a Friday. I would have most of Friday free, cuz the conference was on Saturday. So we bused out at midnight on Thursday would go to Columbus, Ohio. Yep. Friday I rent a car or get in an Uber and I drive to every bookstore that will look me in the face and I say, Hey, I’m Annie F Downs, do you have my new book? And if they did, I would sign ’em. And if they didn’t, I would ask them to carry it. So I’d go to three or four bookstores in every city on our first day in the city. The second day when we had our event. When I’m speaking, what’s also happening is all these youth group leaders are there. And so I’m, I have a, this is very in line with what you teach us to do. I have a thing on the screen that I say, Hey, if you want a 30 day devotional for free, here’s all you gotta do. Hit the do this QR code or whatever. And so what ends
RV (11:02):
Up happen, it wasn’t QR codes back then, I don’t think, think QR codes didn’t become popular until Covid. That’s what’re right. Covid left behind in its wake was QR codes for the work. Exactly.
AFD (11:10):
Right. I think it was probably just an a web address. Yeah. I think they just could take a picture of that, of a place on my website. And so what that, what that tour ended up doing is giving me a bunch of emails of teen girls and their leaders Wow. And a bunch of youth pastors who said, can I want her to come back and speak to our youth group or to our college ministry or to our women. So I had it for, and I ended up being on that tour for two years. Wow. So I was in front of thousands and thousands of leaders who then bring in speakers to their own
RV (11:40):
Church. Got it. Okay. And so, and so at that point you’re collecting email addresses, which good on you. Like that’s a game changer to ca to capture all that. But it’s not like millions of email addresses. It’s like no, no, no. A few thousand. You do that for a couple years, you got five or 10,000 emails maybe.
AFD (11:57):
Exactly. I pro I think we ended each year, I think we ended each year with five more. So I think the first year was about 5,000. Second year was about 10.
RV (12:04):
Okay. But now these people have seen you speak and so now they start calling you to come speak at their church. Yes.
AFD (12:11):
Yes. Interesting. So then they say, Hey, we saw you at Girls of Grace in Min Minneapolis. Our church is 30 minutes from there and we have a youth conference that has a thousand students. Will you come speak
RV (12:22):
Uhhuh
AFD (12:26):
Yes, I was paid. I feel like it was a couple of hundred dollars. It wasn’t very much and it was one bunk. So I also was my own merch person. Right. Which is very normal. This was, I was treated Yeah. Very well on this tour. That is, I mean, you know, there’s those big music tours like Winter Jam where you don’t get paid. You’re just glad to be there and you, what you get paid is how much merch you move. Right. Right. And so I, I had one bunk, so I set up my own merch table. I would train merch volunteers. I was counting in merch, I was counting out merch and and I got paid a couple hundred dollars.
RV (13:01):
I mean this is sounds more like a musician start. Like
AFD (13:04):
It totally is. And in fact, so much of what you see shaped in my career is because who we can watch here in town do this is musicians. And so my friends that are musicians, I was watching them and going, wait, you don’t do your own books at the end of an event? Who does that? Wait, you aren’t making this decision? Who does that? And so I really am, I do look as an artist, if you like, looked down from the sky at me and a country artist, we look very similar and how our businesses run versus if you look down me on mine and another author who has as many books out as me, doesn’t have the kind of team I have, doesn’t have the kind of processes I have cuz I look like a musician.
RV (13:46):
Interesting. So then, so, so then these youth leaders start calling and that’s, are you getting a thousand bucks to speak?
AFD (13:52):
No, I’m getting 500 bucks to speak and travel for two people.
RV (13:56):
Wow, okay. Yeah. So not a lot of money still going on.
AFD (14:01):
Right. So we are, that’s why, I mean it took, I put three teen books out 20 12, 20 13, 20 14. And then in 2015, my first adult non-fiction came out. That was a memoir called Let’s All Be Brave. And when that book came out is when I did not have the money to pay my assistant who, because I, I’m a big believer in like get some help before you can actually afford the help. Yeah. Like you be the hustler to make the money so that you can have help because mm-hmm.
RV (14:51):
Uhhuh
AFD (14:51):
RV (15:10):
Yep. And so then so then that book came out. So that was your fourth book. So now you’re starting to get some, some advances that are at least like, you know, more reasonable advance to kind of like build your career. Yes, yes. You have some royalties coming in
AFD (15:24):
Probably. That’s right. So the good news of taking small advances is you do usually get money on the backside. So I have 11 books out and I make money on the backside of nine of ’em. And so I’m getting mailbox money every quarter. We try to treat book money, like foundation money that we don’t touch unless we have to. So we just deposit that. What we’re actually trying to run our budget off of is speaking money and podcasting money. But the podcast didn’t start till 2014 and it didn’t start making money until 2017 probably.
RV (15:55):
Ah-Huh.
AFD (16:14):
That, that was a muddy season, as you can imagine, because I’m still getting these calls for teen girl conferences or for college conferences even. I am, at this point I’m 34 and I am way out of actually living life as a teenager or living with teenagers. And I’m mostly talking to 20 year olds cuz I’m at Crosspoint, I’m volunteering in the college ministry. So my time is spent with people in their mid twenties. So that transition was really hard. I, we had to work really closely with my booking agent and kind of be like, Hey, we, we can’t keep taking these, we have to start setting me up. So the transition looked like if a big church called and said, Hey, we’ve got $2,000. We’d love for Annie to come speak to our college women’s group and there’s 500 girls that’ll come great. Annie would be happy to do that. Could you do a luncheon the next day for the women? Yeah. And invite any women and it won’t cost you any extra, but Annie would love to talk for 20 minutes to women in your church or could she get a meeting with your women’s minister to talk about what y’all are doing for women’s ministry? So the the transition was, if you’re gonna pay me for what I’m known for, will you let me do for free what I’m trying to do?
RV (17:32):
Mm-Hmm.
AFD (17:36):
And so it was muddy though. It was not fun that we had to say nos. We didn’t wanna say we had to do things cheaper than I wanted to do, but I, and I also ended up changing publishers because it was really hard to not be considered the the new girl who wrote for teenagers when I was trying to be a peer with my friends who wrote for adults.
RV (17:56):
Right. Yep. And then so then you start speaking at women’s groups and then from there it’s just like you’re speaking and the spinoff starts to come and then you speak at That’s right. So, so what’s do you the like is there’s, they’re speaking at women’s groups and then they’re speaking at like is a women’s group, like a Christian, like a conference, is that primarily then
AFD (18:20):
Probably a conference? Yeah, that’s right. And a lot of churches do their own like women’s retreats and women’s conferences that are for whatever they are. You know, it could be a hundred women in a room or it could be 10,000 women that go to some of these. And the ones that, you know, one of the things that happens a lot is they will end up reading your book or, or going through a Bible study I’ve written and, and, but they don’t have the money to fly me or to bring my assistant or whatever. And so the opportunity is to go like, man, who in your community could do this? There’s people right there. Right. But the transition started happening where people would bring me in Saturday and say, will you stay and speak on Mother’s Day to our Sunday morning? And so then I started being able to, to get invitations that were not just female audiences but we’re men and women together. And that’s when I started doing more Sunday mornings.
RV (19:16):
Do people get paid to speak at a church on a Sunday?
AFD (19:19):
Sometimes, yeah. I mean if, if you are traveling and you’re leaving your normal life, yes. I think it’s, it’s considered an event. So a most ti Sundays, if I’m speaking somewhere else, there is some honorarium attached to it. For me with Crosspoint, that is not, that is not true. Only because that’s my, that is how I serve my local church and I only teach four or five times a year. And so it’s, it’s the way I get to give back to the church that gives me so much. And so there are exceptions to the rule, whereas with a conference, there is no exception for me. Like, if, if you can’t, if you can’t bring me in and and pay me to do my job, then I’m not the right fit for you. That means that God has somebody else for y’all. That’s a little bit different on Sunday mornings to me. I don’t do merch tables on Sunday mornings. There’s just some changes that are not rules that anybody else has to follow, but are rules that are for me that I’ve created that are like, nah, we’re not gonna sell books on a Sunday morning. I just don’t like the way that feels, so I don’t do that.
RV (20:21):
Got it. But so they might, and then, I mean I’m sure it varies, but like when you get, when you get into the Christian market, ultimately you have local churches doing program for their membership. Yes. And they might be bringing somebody in and they’re paying that speaker to come in or maybe doing like a rev share, like a ticket sale kind of a thing. Yes. Or you have conferences where it’s like a regional kind of lots of churches sort of promoting, there’s a promoter, either a church is hosting it and then you have speaking on Sundays and all of those can be paid things in the church world.
AFD (20:58):
Yes, that’s right. And the conferences, that’s, that’s exactly right. Those are the three options. You’re gonna do something local, you’re gonna do something community sized or you’re gonna do Sunday mornings.
RV (21:06):
Mm-Hmm.
AFD (21:20):
For some people it’s okay if it’s not for everybody. Yeah. I, it just, it is for me. Yeah.
RV (21:25):
Lots of, I mean lots of authors, lots of Christian authors, that’s what they kind of do. I feel like they do like a, a big church tour of the whole country and that’s, that’s part of how they sell their, they how
AFD (21:34):
They sell. Especially in July and August or June and July when pastors want some time off. I mean that’s why you see so many authors and pastors sharing their stages with other people is they want, they need some weeks off and understandably Uhhuh
RV (21:53):
Tell me about, so let’s talk about the podcast. So I’m b I’m Curious cuz that’s part of like, you have the, that sounds Fun network and then you also have your two, your two podcasts. Yep. So when do you start making money from that and how, how do you make money from the podcast and like, tell us about that a little
AFD (22:09):
Bit. Yeah, so it’s, it’s ad revenue, right? So it’s, it is the same as a TV show. It’s commercials and, and there are multiple ways to do it. There is what’s called a di, which is just a drop in where, where it’s not the voice of the host where it literally is a commercial. So you hear that a lot on some of the shows on other networks. I think Gimlet does it. It’s, it’s not good or bad, it just is. And where they’ll have a read that goes before you start listening to the show you’re listening to. So for me, what we do, we all add host Red Ads for my show and for the That Sounds Fun Network. We do host red ads. Those are the most genuine we believe for what we are making and, and they pay the most. And so for my show I started having advertising partners want to work with us about 2017.
AFD (22:58):
So my producer at the time, Chad Sna from Sound On Sound Off Music or Sound on Sound Off Productions, he had a friend who had done ad sales for a long time. So I hired him for a while, then I joined a network. It was not a great fit, but that’s was the next move is I joined a network. When I left that network is when my manager and I kind of went like, Hey, we can build a better thing than what I’m experiencing Hmm. As a podcaster. And so we got a sales team. So they work with ad partners, they work with like advertising companies that are kind of over multiple different companies that want to advertise. And so they, it literally is a, Hey Annie, I mean it happened this morning. Hey Annie, there’s a brand that wants to be on the podcast. Can they go ahead and send you an example of of their product and you can see if you like it and see if it’s something that you’d like to talk about. And that’s how we do.
RV (23:50):
So how, how does that, like how big of a pod, like how big does a podcast have to be before it can start advertising?
AFD (23:57):
That’s a great question. So it, depending on what kind of money you wanna make, you can start advertising with someone like Anchor that’s run through Spotify. You can do ads for Anchor starting immediately now. You’ll get paid if you have five listeners, you’ll get five pennies or something. You know, like, but there, there is a availability for anyone who starts a podcast to start making advertising money right away when you really make money that can pay for your production and actually help run, run your ministry, your company, your brand. We see that about 10,000 listeners in the first 10 weeks is when advertising partners are really interested in working with you in the
RV (24:38):
First, that’s the, that’s 10 weeks like each,
AFD (24:39):
That’s the number they look at episode. Yep. So you look at an episode that releases on January 1st, you’re gonna what the advertiser partner doesn’t they like the first week that matters to them, but what they actually look at is what’s the arc of the whole show? So how at the end, so when we look at stats every week, you, you know me Rory, I look at stats constantly. It’s like I
RV (24:58):
Love it. I did not know that about you.
AFD (24:59):
Oh you did? Oh listen,
RV (25:00):
I didn’t know that that
AFD (25:01):
Is about you. That is science. Like that will tell, we can say I think everybody loved that episode. Well no they didn’t, nobody listened. So we gotta look at the science. So I love the stats. So every Monday in our staff meeting we look at how did our shows do it one week just cuz we’re interested. But what we really go back and look at is the show that released 10 weeks ago, how many people have listened? And usually we have about double from one week to 10 weeks. So what, what what happens in one week happens again in week two through 10 of listenership. And so that’s what advertising partners look at. So when we’re looking at shows to add to the network that really want, that are hoping it’ll be a financial benefit to that show where the host is like, Hey, I need to make money off of this if I’m gonna put time in. Then we say man, well as soon as you get to 10 thousands when you’ll really start seeing ad partners be interested
RV (25:50):
And how much do they pay? Like how much does it cost? Let’s just use 10,000. Like let’s say it’s, yeah, let’s say you’re at 10,000, which means if I calculate you’re saying you release an episode, you get 5,000 downloads this week and then another 5,000 downloads over the next nine’s weeks’. That’s right On that on that episode. Yep. How do you price it and what do they like, what do they pay kind of thing?
AFD (26:11):
Well this is outta my expertise level because I don’t know any of that. What I know is we do CPM cost per million and, and I know that it actually varies based on the partner. So someone like a Thistle Farms who we really believe in and love and want to talk about, they may not have the same cost or same ability to pay for a show that, that a huge brand like Better Help does. And so we can work with Thistle Farms and say, Hey Annie loves y’all, so here are the, the five ad slots. This one is the one we will get to you at a price that works for your company, but we can’t give you this one because this one is double that cost or whatever. Right. And so, and each show is different. And so it really varies. Our sales team, we have two full-time sales team members here and that’s what they do constantly. And the other thing Roy, is they’re not just doing, do you wanna buy this show? They’re saying, do you wanna buy a year worth? And so that’s the bigger number that they’re looking at is can we find ad partners that believe in us? Like we believe in them enough to go, Hey, for a year let’s make a contract. Mm-Hmm.
RV (27:18):
Mm-Hmm.
AFD (27:29):
Watching. It’s per episode. Yeah. Because for example, let’s use Thistle Farms again because we love them. Everyone go shop at Thistle Farms. But if Thistle Farms, you know, if they they don’t actually care how we did this month, they care how we did on the show that they’re on. Right. And so they wanna look at the 10 weeks. It’s cool, you’ll see people do all time. We hit 2 million, we hit 3 million downloads. That’s awesome. We do it for the network, we celebrate with everyone and we celebrate on our show. But what advertising partners really care about. And so therefore what podcasters should really care about is how did each episode do after 10 weeks?
RV (28:01):
And and if you, let’s just say you have a show that does about 10,000 downloads per episode.
AFD (28:08):
Yeah.
RV (28:09):
In a year, like at a high level, how much revenue do you think one show like that? You know, oh boy,
AFD (28:15):
Give or I, I don’t wanna mess this up. I mean I bet if you’re doing weekly shows, I mean this is going to be a guess Rory for real. If you’re doing weekly shows at a 10,000 downloads and you do, let’s say you do 45 shows in a year cuz you take a couple off or whatever, I mean I bet you’re gonna make maybe a thousand bucks a show. I bet you’re making 800 to a thousand bucks a show. So, you know, four $40,000 maybe.
RV (28:42):
Okay,
AFD (28:43):
Interesting. I could be really off about, I think that’s about what, but you know, also the cost to make a show is about $500 per episode. Yes. If you’re hiring outside. And so that’s, that is a thing. People don’t factor. They wanna start a podcast and they want to make advertising money. Well, y you’re gonna be outta pocket for a little bit if you c if you don’t have the skills to make it sound good. Mm-Hmm.
RV (29:08):
You. Yeah. Yeah. That’s interesting cuz we had, we had a podcast that had millions of downloads that we sold as part of when we sold our last company. But we’ve never run ads on our, the only ads we run on our show are for our services. Yeah. And so that’s, and that’s, you know, because we’re offering people free calls to learn about what we do. And that’s usually when you’re starting out, that’s gonna pay a lot, a lot more money Yes. Than you’ll make from advertisers until you get really, really big.
AFD (29:35):
Absolutely. And we still, I mean still on my show and on shows on the network, we use the opportunity when we have empty ad spots to talk about the products we make. That is a hundred. And one of the things on our network that we really believe in is the community part. And so one at a quarter you’re advertising for another podcast and it’s on the network mm-hmm.
RV (30:07):
Yeah, that’s really cool. I noticed that like Caleb is doing this now where they’ve got, they’ve got Caleb podcasts and you know, people are really doing this Interesting to see how it all happens. Well, yeah. So as we’re wrapping up, like, so tell us a little bit about what you’re working on. So I, I know Carlos Whitaker used to be really he used to be around Crosspoint a lot. I never really got to know him, but I know you, you obviously have your, your podcast. That sounds fun. You’ve got the books, but you and Carlos are teaming up on something exciting in 2023, right? Yeah.
AFD (30:40):
In June we’re going on tour together. It’s called the Here for You Tour. We just kind of wanted, he and I are good friends. We have a lot of the same audience, but also a lot of people who don’t know each other. And, and we thought, man, what we wanna do is let’s just go talk, let’s go meet up where our friends are already at and gathering. And so we’ve got about 12 cities we’re going to in June where we’re gonna get to show up and talk about Jesus and talk about what’s going on in culture and feature some local businesses. Like it’s kind of just gonna be a really fun hang night that we get to do. It’s really exciting. And the other thing we’re working on that I’m really proud of is the let’s read the Gospel’s podcast. And Roy, the idea really was like, what if there’s so many people who want to read the Bible in a year, but but don’t finish.
AFD (31:28):
Yeah. And so can we give some steps that would Enbridge people to a year? So we are gonna read Matthew, mark, Luke, John every month. And so people can start with on January one, February one, March one. And, and so the only commitment you’re making is a monthly commitment. We’re just gonna do it 12 times. So you can do it with us all 12 times or you can do it with us once, or you can do it with us in April. Or if you’ve never listened to Matthew, mark, Luke and Johnny, you don’t even know what they’re about. I’m gonna read the whole thing to you. And so, and
RV (31:56):
You’re reading it, you’re, it’s in your voice.
AFD (31:58):
It’s me. Yeah. We’re reading it 12 times man. It is an interesting year because we are really having to, it takes about 15 hours to read and so, and we have to do, so that’s two or three hours a week. So it’s really changing our rhythms next year. Cause I’m not doing any besides you, you’re my last outside conversation besides my shows until 2024. Nice. Wow. Because we just, my voice, we have to, if I’m gonna tour and travel and do a pot, do that sounds fun twice a week and read the gospels every month, that’s about all my voice can do. Yeah. So it’s changed my availability in a really interesting way. I’ll be very interested to see what happens. What happens when we focus like this next year.
RV (32:44):
Well, one thing that’ll be awesome. So, so we read the, we read the whole Bible this last year, which was the first time we ever made it through. Yeah. We’re in a, we’re in a family bible study. It’s the coolest thing is every Sunday from like three to seven, we found a Bible study. And the thing that that was a game changer was all the families pooled to buy babysitters. And so the kids go off with the babysitters and so then the family can actually like eat and do bible study. And it was, we read the whole Bible and the the thing, which was amazing, super power, powerful experience to read all the way through. But the thing that I’m most craving is you have to go so fast that we didn’t get to spend enough time in the gospels. And I’m like, man, I’m really, I’m really craving more time there in Matthew, mark, Luke and John. So that’s a really cool idea. That’s very, very, very, very powerful. Well Annie, where should people go? I got one last question for you, but before that, where do you want people to go if they wanna like learn more about you and connect up and see what you’re, what you’re up to?
AFD (33:42):
I, you know me Roy, I’m like embarrassingly easy to find. I’m just Annie F Downs everywhere. F is in fancy. So Annie f Downs will get you everything you need. Annie f Downs slash Gospels will get you access to all the resources we have to go along with the podcast. And then the here for You tour is here for you tour.com. So that’s where I’ll be all this year, all those places.
RV (34:02):
I love it. So my last question is just Annie, like thinking back, you know, let’s say somebody’s listening right now who, you know, maybe they are an aspiring author or maybe they’re an aspiring speaker, or maybe they’re in that like transition mode between like, I’m serving one audience, I’m doing one thing in my life, but I really want to be doing something else. Like, you know, those can be long dark seasons and, and Yeah. You know, those can be trying times. Like what would you, what would you say to that person if they’re listening right now?
AFD (34:30):
Yeah. You know, the thing I I, the only thing I would’ve regretted so far is if I would’ve quit. I have made mistakes along the way for sure. I don’t regret my mistakes. We had a, we’ve had some big ones that I’ve done and we have done some massive cleanup around it. I I don’t regret mistakes. I would’ve regretted quitting. And so that’s what I would say is don’t give up and get some people around you to help you because what they can help you do is not even decide whether to quit or not, but help you decide how do you pivot this thing so that it actually works for you. And so that it actually meets the needs that you believe the world has, that you are uniquely gifted to meet. And so ask, ask some, ask for some help and do not give up.
RV (35:13):
I love it. I love it. Well, we’ll link up to annie f downs.com. You can check out the tour, the shows. Thank you so much for such a transparent, open sharing, Annie, of just how all of this works and, and just hearing your story. It’s, it’s super encouraging and you know, we’re praying for you, my friend, and, and we wish you the best.
AFD (35:31):
I love you guys. I’m really glad to be friends with you and your wife, so I’m thankful for y’all and for the work you do, it matters to me.
Ep 349: 3 Things To Consider If You Want To Write A Book | Bob Wheatley Episode Recap
AJV (00:00):
So I was having a conversation earlier this week with a friend who is a first time author, and we got to talking about all the, you know, exciting parts and challenging parts of being a first time author. And so I thought I would record just a, uh, quick recap of some of the highlights of this conversation that I had, because if you’re listening to this and you are a first time author that you know, you’re just on the precipice of getting your first, first book out into the world, or even if you’re an aspiring author or a maybe one day, that might be something I wanna do, type of one day author. I think this is really applicable to you. And even if you’re a second or third time author, I think there’s some nuggets in here that would be really helpful to you. And, um, so here are some of the highlights from this conversation, uh, that I had.
AJV (00:56):
So, first thing that I think would be really helpful if you’re considering, uh, writing a book or you just finished and you are in this kind of like first author category, is you’ve gotta consider three things. Um, as you’re launching your first book. One, it’s, you have to have a quality product. Um, and that’s a given, right? So, uh, don’t produce crap content
AJV (01:47):
Or You need to write a book? And they’re going, it’s just not time yet. And it’s been a 5, 10, 15 year journey for some people because they know that the book is the last thing you do, not the first thing you do. Once you have proven content that can really make a change, that can really help someone and that can really make an impact. So you gotta have a great product that’s a given, right? Um, but the second thing is you have to have a good plan. Um, so many of us think that you write a great book, it’ll just sell itself. No, it won’t
Speaker 2 (02:58):
Also a plan for marketing and promoting the book to get it in the hands of the people who need it. So you need a great product, you gotta have a good plan, but then also you gotta have a platform. You have to have a place where you can actually talk about this product, which is your book, right? And it doesn’t mean you have to have hundreds of thousands or millions or even tens of thousands followers online. It just means you’ve gotta have a platform of loyal and en unengaged audience. And that could be in the hundreds, seriously. Um, it just, you gotta have a platform of people that you have identified that you can help, and that this content is meant to help them. And you have a plan of how you’re going to get it in front of those people. And that could be through audio, that could be on podcasts, it could be on videos and YouTube and Instagram on social media, but there’s a whole world offline, right?
Speaker 2 (03:51):
Does not have to be just online. So it’s, are you gonna do a book tour? Are you gonna go to local bookstores? Are you gonna do speaking events? Are you gonna do a launch party? Are you gonna go speak at your churches, kids, schools, whoever will have you, chambers of commerce, business journals, whoever. Um, but it’s like, do you have a platform to get it out there? So a great product, a great plan, but then also you’ve gotta have a platform, right? And I think that’s a really important thing to talk about, um, because so many people just talk about the content or they talk about hitting some list. And both of those are just pieces of a really important puzzle, which is, I bet that if you have a desire to write a book or you have written a book, it’s because you, you believe that it can actually help someone, right?
Speaker 2 (04:40):
And, and that is deservative of these three things that require your attention, a really good product, your content, a really good plan, um, and then a platform of people who need to hear about it, right? So, um, those are just kind of like high level three things that I think are really important. But in addition to that, I’m just kind of looking at my notes here, here are some of the other things that I think is really important, um, to just to remember as you are writing your first book, and this is really a conversation for that first time or aspiring first time author. Um, and the first thing is you just have to do it, right? There’s so many people who go me one day, well, it’s like, no, just one day. You just gotta do it. So you just have to start writing.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
And it doesn’t have to be perfect because it’s not going to be, it’s not going to be awesome, right? So just focus on saying it ugly first. Just get it on paper. Uh, you know, we have this saying, um, my husband Roy and I always say there is no, uh, good writing, only good editing. There are no good writers, only good editors. And so don’t worry about if it’s good or if it sucks, just get it on paper because then you can go back and edit it and rewrite and rewrite and re-edit again and again and again to make it good. But you have to have something to start with.
Speaker 3 (05:57):
So you just have to start riding and expect the first round to be bad
Speaker 3 (06:44):
No, don’t even send it out to 10 and goes, I hope somebody likes it or somebody will give me some constructive, you know, criticism. Find three or four people who you value their feedback, who have been where you want to be. So who have done this process or who fit your core target audience, your avatar. And actually give it to a very few group of people who you’ll entrust that will actually lead it, actually spend time on it because they want to help you. They want to see this succeed, they wanna see you succeed, but they will also give you the hard but necessary input and feedback to make it better, while also encouraging you along the way. Um, and that’s a diligent process, and it should be a select and small group of people. And this is what my friend Bob said. He said, don’t waste your editors, right?
Speaker 3 (07:35):
Don’t waste ’em. Um, you don’t need feedback from dozens or, you know, even, you know, half a dozen people. You need a good set of feedback from three or four people who can actually provide you with real insights that will make a real difference. So don’t waste your editors, don’t waste those big asks. Find a small group of people who will actually go through this and give you the real feedback that you need to make your writing to make your content better. And then last but not least, and you know, we could say this on every single thing in business or in life, is don’t forget to get a coach or a mentor. Find someone to emulate, right? There are so many people who have been through this process. You do not have to go it alone. You do not have to figure it out alone,
Speaker 3 (08:21):
That actually makes no sense to me. So find someone, a mentor, a coach, um, maybe it’s a, you know, a volunteer friend. Maybe it’s someone you pay, but find someone who has been through this process who can guide you through the ups and downs, the peaks and valleys, um, the parts that you know about, the parts that you don’t because there’s a lot of both. Um, and just find someone that you can emulate and who can help mentor you through this process. If it’s free, great if it’s paid, great too. But invest the time, money, resources, and attention that it requires. If this is something that you really wanna do,
Speaker 4 (08:54):
And if you’re not willing to do those things, then it’s probably just not time, and that’s okay too. So anyways, I just thought this was a really great conversation and there were some really big important things. And as we start the new year, I thought these would be awesome takeaways and highlights for anyone who is going, man, a book is on my goal list for this year. I really wanna get that book out. These are things that you should consider as you get through the process of getting that first book out into the world. So good luck, God speed. We’ll see you later.
Ep 348: Tips for the First Time Author with Bob Wheatley
AJV (00:53):
Hey everybody, and welcome to another episode on the Influential Personal brand. This is AJ Vaden here, and I am here today with a very good close personal friend and a fellow brand builder and actually a client turned team member, which is very unusual and very rare for us to have someone like Bob Wheatley on the show today. But we just felt like this was too good of an opportunity to pass up. And so before we get into the details of this interview, I wanted to kinda tell you why you need to stick around for the entirety of this interview. And ultimately, if you have ever had a dream of writing a book, this is the interview for you. Or if you are in the process of perhaps writing your first book or trying to land a book deal or trying to get your book published, or you’re just starting to ideate around this, like, I’m going to do this now, how do I get it in the hands of somebody that it can impact?
AJV (01:56):
This is for you. Or perhaps you have even published your first book and now you’re wondering, how do I sell this
AJV (02:55):
Louis Cardinals and l y’all listen, like that is like no joke. Like to learn about the rigor and the expectations, and quite honestly, the passion and the lack of pay often associated with professional sports. One of the things that I know is that what you’re going to learn about here is some true hard work. This is not fluff. These are the real things that it takes to get real things produced in the real world. These are not get rich quick gimmicks. This is not how do you sell a million books in 30 days? But this is the real work that it takes because that’s what he is been putting in for his entire life, and that is no different than what you’re gonna hear on this show right now. So without further ado, Bob, welcome to the show.
BW (03:42):
What an introduction
AJV (03:52):
We’re so happy to get to be able to do this and a part of why we were so excited to have Bob as a guest on the influential personal brand is because he is a first time author and he just published his first book and it’s going out. It’s going to be available for presale right now, but it’s launching in January of 2023. So as you’re listening to this you have an opportunity to get your hands on this amazing book that we’re gonna talk about but also is because we’ve been able to walk side by side along with Bob and watch the journey of idea to book, to publishing, to holding it in our hands of going, this is a reality and this can happen. And it wasn’t that long, truly. And so we thought this would be amazing opportunity for all of those first time authors or aspiring authors to go, how do I do this?
AJV (04:46):
But then also, we’re just so excited of you for or for you, and we’re so proud of the work that you’re doing. So this is also just a really special moment that we get to celebrate some real life hard work that we get to see firsthand. And so here’s my first question that I have for you, and I pinged you with this earlier. It’s why write a book, right? Because
BW (05:30):
Yeah, totally. And but before I answer that, let me just say, it’s kind of surreal for me to be sitting here cuz if you’re a member, I became a brand builder’s client first I found you guys through the podcast. It was just a friend referred the influential personal brand. Like, Hey Bob, you’re thinking about writing the book. I know you’re in the podcasting space. These guys are doing some awesome stuff. Check out this podcast. So it’s cool for me because I was listening to you guys for a while, you know, on the other end of this show. Now to be sitting here with you personally is just so, so cool. Oh,
AJV (06:01):
I didn’t even know
BW (06:02):
Share that. I, yeah, I was a, I was a podcast listener subscriber, the whole deal. But as far as why write the book, cuz you’re right, there’s so many ways that you can go when it comes to a personal brand or even just having a message to share. I think for me personally, I was always a reader, like when it comes to playing professional baseball, spending time in the minors, we have this saying, hurry up and wait. There’s just so much downtime. And so it’s either you’re playing cards with your buddies, you’re scrolling your phone, or for me, you know, you’re, you’re reading. So most of the stuff that I was reading while I was playing was nonfiction. It was mental game, it was mindset, it was health, nutrition, weightlifting. Like, I just wanted to throw baseballs as fast as I possibly could cuz I wanted to get to the big leagues.
BW (06:50):
But I was reading, I was constantly around it. And so you’re, you’re right that I could get a message out in any number of forms, but I’ve always been a reader. And I grew up in a house of attorneys, oddly enough, my dad’s an attorney, my brother, my sister, my grandfather, two uncles and an Aunt
AJV (07:51):
That’s good. Here we have it. You know what’s interesting is as we come to a close on the year 2022, I have shared this with many people that I’ve encountered over the last few months, that this has probably been single-handedly the best year of my life. Both personally and professionally, but not because something extraordinary happened in our business. Although there’s lots of successes, but there’s been lots of ups and downs, or there wasn’t something extraordinary that happened in my personal life. But this year has been the single most 40 year of my life because of my commitment, my recommitment to personal development. And I am finishing my 15th book of the year. I’ve got just, I don’t know, maybe a third of the this last book I’m reading called Live No Lies by John Mark Comer that I had the opportunity made my, made the opportunity for myself.
AJV (08:47):
I read through the entire Bible this year and then read 15 books. And I, I shared this with Rory about halfway through the, the year this year. And I said, I think I forgot the power that a book has to change a life. And I am just a firsthand example of that this year. And you could ask anyone who is super close to me. I am a different person today than I was 12 months ago. And it is because of the books that I have just completely committed my life to just being in positive reading and filling my mind with things that are gonna help me versus potentially harm me. And it’s, I had just, I have fallen back in love with the power of the written word. And there’s nothing wrong with a short form content and a blog or a social media post or a podcast.
AJV (09:40):
But one of the things that I thought about this year is I do a lot of podcasting and write blogs and write social media posts. And I can tell you right now, the amount of time that I put into my podcast prep or blog prep or social media prep is teeny tiny. But the amount of time and preparation and thought that is required, that is mandatory to write a good book takes a lifetime. And I forgot about that until I have like, been so transformed by books this year. And it’s, it’s one of the reasons why I wanted, I wanted to ask that question because I think there’s just, people have forgotten the amount of preparation and editing and re-editing that it takes to like, make a book a book, and we kind of get consumed with that short form content or pop it in our ear of going, man, we just whipped that out,
BW (11:01):
Yeah. Well I, and I’m so glad you you said that not necessarily about me. I’m saying I have that, I’ve had that same experience where as I’ve written more, I’ve become a much better reader mm-hmm. Because I’m, I’m so grateful for the work that these men and women have put in on those books. Like when I was in the, in the buses, in the locker rooms of the minor leagues reading book after book after book, I really didn’t care. It was, or I wasn’t as grateful as I should have been. Now after having spent two and a half years writing a book, writing, rewriting, editing, throwing stuff away, like there, there is so much that goes into a book just because it is, it’s so complex. And of course it depends on the project, but by and large you have to write 200 pages. That makes sense.
BW (11:50):
Yeah. You know, and you’re sharing like this’s just thousands upon thousands of your own words. And you’re right, like when it comes to a podcast, you and I are having a conversation, we’re keeping it casual. We could pause the whole deal when it comes to a book. It is set in stone mm-hmm.
AJV (12:52):
I have a girlfriend who is just, she’s incredible, her name’s Victoria Jackson. And she hand wrote both of her first books. And I was like, what, what does that mean? And she was like, what do you mean, what does it mean? I had some paper and a pen or a pencil. And I was like, what?
BW (13:11):
That is wild. I couldn’t imagine that my two year book would’ve taken two decades. That’s crazy.
AJV (13:20):
So, okay, well on the topic of getting this book out there and for all of you who are listening, who are these first time authors? I think there’s some really strategic questions that we wanna dive into today. That would just help anyone who is listening in a universal kind of perspective shift and all the different ways that you can actually write a book. Because if you are going about writing a book, there’s a few different ways you can do it, right? There’s the traditional path, right? You’re gonna try to work with a p a traditional publishing house, which means you probably need an agent. They’re gonna have, you’re gonna have a book deal, you’re gonna have a book proposal, you’re gonna do the whole thingy, right? Then there’s the opposite of that, which the self-published route, right? And I always use this example how Elrod, right?
AJV (14:00):
People always go, well, self-published, like is it really gonna get distribution? Well, it’s like he’s now sold 2 million copies of the Miracle Morning. So yeah, self-published can work just fine, right? But you’ve got that where you’re doing all of it and you’re paying for it up front, but you’re keeping all the money on the back end. But then you kinda have this middle world, which is this hybrid model that has really come on strong in the, on the scene in the last 10 years where it’s, it’s like a traditional publishing hat publishing house because they can do some of the design and the editing and the distribution, but yet it’s more like a self-publish route in terms of you’re gonna keep and retain the rights and the money to your book. And so walk us through what did you do? How did you go through that decision making process and what has that decision been like for you?
BW (14:47):
Yeah, definitely. So I ended up taking that middle route. I did the, the hybrid model that you were describing where self-publish the book with an agent. So we call it agent led publishing. And when it comes to the traditional route, I mean, it’s called traditional for a reason. That’s how it used to be. But honestly, self-publishing is becoming so good these days. Not only in terms of the, the product, but the amount of people that are doing it. It’s not like the little kid brother like, oh, you self-published, ha ha ha. Like, you can, you can have a really solid product if you sell publish. And so for me personally, the traditional route wasn’t really in the cards. And I say that was for two reasons. One externally and one internally. The external would be I just didn’t have the platform. Mm-Hmm.
AJV (15:51):
We pause right there just for a second? Yeah, please. I think there’s a couple of nuggets in there that is really important. And we were having this chat before I hit record around how it really isn’t the New York Times, you know, best written book. It’s the New York Times best selling book. There’s a hundred
BW (16:09):
Percent
AJV (16:10):
Called that. And you know, it’s like any chart that you look at is not really a, a critical claim on the quality of the book. It’s how well did the book sell, how well was it marketed? And you mentioned something that I think is really unique. It’s like, I didn’t have the platform to attract a big publishing house. And so can you tell us a little bit about like, what your platform was and and then I can share, you know, feedback of like, we had, we experienced the exact same thing when we were initially trying to shop and get our books sold. But talk a little bit about this platform size and why traditional publishers lean into that. And then what was your size at the time? Just give some, you know, context for everyone who’s listening.
BW (16:55):
I mean, if you think about it, these are for-profit businesses. So if they had to choose between publishing Bob’s book or Barack Obama’s new memoir, like, duh, of course, of course they’re going with, with the president. So in terms of my platform, like even today, I probably have about 10,000 followers between all of my socials. That’d be LinkedIn, TikTok, Instagram, I might be a little over that, but it’s not hundreds, not hundreds of thousands. Not even close. So small fish in that pond. So I could write this amazing book. Wow, this is the best we’ve ever read. Not that anybody said that, I’m just saying in theory. And, you know, they, they still wouldn’t take my call mm-hmm.
BW (17:49):
Like she, she read one chapter of my book and there was enough to warrant a, a phone call and we’re actually on Zoom and you know, we, we talked for 20 minutes or so, and then I was so glad that I was prepared for this. She asked me, what’s the next book? I was like, let me, let me show you. And so I have it, you know, I have all the files ready to go and pulled up and like, I had already written like 20,000 words of my next book. That was all thanks to honestly my brand builder’s training. So the fact that I am like, you only get that phone call once because my agent, she’s a, as a Christian podcaster and author, she’s like on the Mount Rushmore of the Christian publishing world. Like she is, she is a baller. And so she represents all these amazing authors. She’s 80 New York Times bestsellers. And she said, Bob will take a chance on you. And I think part of that, a writing something
AJV (18:45):
As a compliment to you, please, but then a reminder to everyone else is having quality content is a prerequisite, it’s a requirement, right? That’s not what gets you published. That’s not what gets you an agent. That’s the expectation of it has to be good, it has to have value, it has to exceed the value that I thought I was going to get in this chapter. And that’s, that’s just like basic level, nothing more than that. Everything above that is how are you going to distribute this, right? But I think that’s really important around, it’s like, you know, there is this weird mix of how am I gonna sell the book and how am I gonna market the book? And also how do I make sure this book provides value that has the power to help and change the reader, right? And I think that that’s not something we wanna skimp over of going, you know, this is something we say often at Brain Builders Group is that the book is always the last thing you do, not the first thing you do, it’s the culmination of years and stories and experiences and data and research and all the things.
AJV (19:57):
It’s not the first thing you do, it’s the last thing you do because, you know, this is, this is, this is the, the summation of everything. It’s not the hypothesis. And so the fact that you did that and you had quality work is what even got you the call, right? And so, just for everyone listening, it’s like focusing in on the content and making sure it is value rich and value written like that is, don’t get us wrong when we say it’s a New York Times best selling author and you gotta sell it and promote it and market it. Yes. That’s how you get in the hands of people. But if you really wanna work with people and you really wanna provide value, it’s the content has got to be life changing.
BW (20:38):
Totally. And that’s exactly what she shared with me. She said, typically, whether it’s her criteria or even a, a traditional publisher, they look at three things. They look at the product, they look at the plan, and they look at the platform. Mm-Hmm.
BW (21:27):
We actually have one, like, like you said, it’s not, you know, New York Times best, best writing, it’s New York Times best Selling. So here’s my selling plan. And then the platform, I probably failed that test, but again, it’s two of the three Perfect World. You have all three and then you know, you it’s gang busters and you sell millions of books. That’s awesome.
AJV (22:15):
Yeah. And I think that’s, that’s really significant too. Like, there’s just so many nuggets. If you’re not writing down notes, I would encourage you to like write down some notes because these are some really significant nuggets too. It’s that, and I think so often somehow we just think we’re gonna send a bunch of cold pitches and send out a bunch of chapters and we’re gonna just like network wor network our way in through social media or through our content. And unless you have a massive platform, that is likely not the way you’re going to get to partner with an agent or a publishing house. But the most likely way is that you put on your sales hat and you work your personal, you know, sphere of influence and you figure out who knows someone who knows someone who maybe even knows someone who could get me a call, right?
AJV (23:03):
And it’s like, do not disregard the importance of the statement that Bob just made as I had a friend who knew this person who could refer me in. We all know someone who knows someone who knows someone who knows someone, right. Seven degrees of Kevin Bacon. But we, we’ve gotta be confident enough, inspired enough that what we’re doing means something to actually say, Hey, I’m willing to go out on a limb here. I’m gonna ask for this. Why? Because I’m so convicted in what I’m talking about. I’m so passionate about this that I can’t not, right? I can’t contain it. I can’t keep it in. I have to get it out there. And we all need a little bit more of that if this is something that we really wanna go after, because that’s how it’s most often going to happen, right? It’s a referral in. It’s taking that, you know, sales mindset and going, who do I know? Who knows someone who can help get me connected to the right person? Right? Totally.
BW (24:02):
As far as what we can control, I think that’s absolutely the way to go. Part of it is, you know, divine providence. And if, if God has good works prepared for us, I think he’ll open the doors that need to be open, shut the doors that need to be shut. But yeah, we have a responsibility as well. You’re absolutely right.
AJV (24:19):
Yeah. It’s that, you know, that whole saying, it’s like let God do what he can do and let you know you do what you can do. Right. And it’s like we both have a role to play. I can’t just sit here and say, bring it to me
BW (25:02):
Yeah, totally. So when it comes to self-publishing versus traditional, one of the value add is you retain all of the rights of your book. Whereas with traditional publishing, it’s typically the large pop. You know, you make six figures for some people, I mentioned Barack Obama probably a seven figure advance. Like that’s pretty sweet. That’s a, that’s a big deal. But then when it comes to the, the commissions thereafter, like you’re basically making a dollar a book forever. Once you earn out that advance, they pay you,
AJV (25:34):
You sell a lot
BW (25:35):
BW (26:22):
People can then say, oh, well he’s working with her. Oh, well te tell me more about this guy. Cuz I’ve never heard of him and his 10,000 social media followers. Like, he seems like a nobody but the book. People like the book and he’s represented by, by somebody with a name. So you retain the rights, but then also you have that representation to where if the book really sells, you can just flip it. You can go to those traditional publishers, say, Hey, kinda like a proof of concept, like a beta test. Hey they, they sold 2000 copies in their first three months. Hey, they sold 5,000 copies this summer. Do you want it? So having that agent in your corner, I mean, and they have those, the publishers on speed dial, cuz that is their job pitching the, the projects of their clients to those houses. So yeah, there’s, there’s give and take with both traditional and self. But for me, that hybrid model, just having the representation, having somebody in my corner has been so valuable. Not to mention as a first time author, being able to borrow other people’s mistakes so I don’t have to make them myself so valuable. Having a coach, having somebody say, okay, this is what you need to expect has been, has been just so, so awesome for me. Yeah,
AJV (27:42):
I love that. And as everyone’s kind of like, you know, thinking about this and it’s the way that we’ve explained it, you know, in our, in our own household as we, you know, we’ve done two books with traditional publishing houses and I think there’s pros and cons to all the things, but you know, with traditional publishing, you’re really paying all of the fees yourself upfront in the hopes of making money on the backend, right? Whereas often if you have a six figure plus advance, you’re getting the money on the front end and very little, very little on the back end. So you’re kind of paying for it no matter what. It’s just, do you wanna pay the upfront costs, retain the rights, retain the ownership, retain, you know, I would even say the creative rights of covers, images, titles and you’re gonna pay for it, but then you’re gonna make it back on the backend as long as you have a good plan and a growing platform.
AJV (28:38):
Or do you go, Hey, I’ll forego those things. I’ll get that short term upfront money, but I’m also gonna forgo lots and lots of royalties. You know, and again, I’m talking, generally speaking, there’s plenty of people who make royalties. But I can, I mean, I can attest that in the non-fiction world, you know, we have a national bestseller and a New York Times bestseller and we can not even pay for monthly groceries off of our royalties. So
AJV (29:38):
And this is way before we knew the hard, hard lessons that we know now. We went with a, you know, a kitschy title, something that we thought was clever, called Procrastinate on Purpose, and didn’t have the same impact that we had with Take the Stairs. And then when Rory released his TED Talk, multiply Your Time, you know, it’s got what, 6 million Ted or 6 million views now. And we’re going, what’s the exact same content? What in the world? And it had so much to do with the title. And for three years, for three years we have been trying to get this dead gum title changed. We’ve tried to change the cover image we never liked the cover image. And they will not for the life of us, change the title no matter what or change the creative concept of the cover. And it’s like, those are things that you forego and it’s like, I think those are important lessons to learn. And we’ve, you know, fortunately, unfortunately learned them the hard ways. But again, there’s pros and cons to all of it. But that is a really great pro that you can go, Hey, I’m gonna make some tweaks here, republish, let’s go again. Don’t get that with a traditional publisher most of the time,
BW (30:50):
Right? When it comes to the traditional publishing that you know hasn’t changed is it still has the cachet. You can say, I’m with so-and-so publishing house. It’s like, okay, big deal. Like this is, this is a, this person is a big deal. They know what they’re doing. They like, they have a book deal versus self-publishing. Like we just understand what is what. But you’re right there, there are pros and cons to both. And with somebody in my position, or perhaps the person listening, you might not have the option. Mm-Hmm.
AJV (31:30):
Absolutely. And I think it’s getting stronger and more reputable literally every single month. Not even every year. It’s like every month. That industry is doing a pretty dominant takeover in a lot of ways. So that’s so super helpful. So now there’s this art and science of actually writing the book and getting it in the hands of other people to actually read it. So what we’d love to hear is just what are some best practices and pitfalls, some dos and don’ts of how to get this writing part done in the most effective but also efficient manner. So what are the, some of the lessons you’ve learned about how do you actually finish writing a book? Because we all know someone who had an idea that never got started or had an idea that got halfway started and never got finished. And so how do you actually bring this thing to fruition?
BW (32:27):
Yeah, totally. I, I would say for the person who is considering starting a book, like, Hey, bucket List, I’ve always wanted to do this. Don’t get caught up in the, the perfectionism of things. I would say if, let’s say you have the concept, cuz you need, you need to know the destination of where you’re trying to go. Your first goal should be just create the outline, create the skeleton. You’re gonna put meat on those bones eventually, but create your system. Like, especially if you’re in the non-fiction world, like if you just look at the non-fiction books that you have on your shelves, oftentimes it’s some sort of system. It’s the five love languages, it’s the seven baby steps, it’s the seven habits of highly affected people, right? We’re taking this expertise in whatever field you’re in and we narrow it down. If we’ve spent 10, 20, 30 years, we are like a world renowned expert, or at least we just know more than the reader.
BW (33:28):
Cuz that’s all you need. Let’s make it simple, let’s narrow it down. And so I would say if you are the bucket list person, hey, I really wanna write a book. I’m sure you have the concept there. It might be a little fuzzy, but you have the destination next step, just create the system. Five love languages, seven habits, whatever it is. Like, do a, do a brain dump, write down everything that you believe and then say, okay, how can I piece this together to make it clearer for the next person? Hmm. So that would be the first step. The second thing, and this might be difficult for the perfectionists that are, are listening to this, but that was me. So this is just something I learned as far as pitfalls. Like this is one that I stepped into. This is an error that I made.
BW (34:11):
Your first draft will be bad,
BW (35:03):
Like there’s so many people that have started a book, in fact, I’ve done this myself with previous projects that will never see the light of day, where it’s just, you know, one chapter, two chapter three, dead end. Like just, you just lose the juice. So, and I’m being kind of facetious, like, hey, write a bad book. But like, that’ll be a challenge in itself. You know, you need to write 200 pages of stuff that is just okay. Just okay then give it to somebody you trust, maybe one or two people in terms of the editing process. And then you make it it better and better and better. I would also say don’t waste your editors. Like let’s say you have 10 people that you trust, you’re in a book club or whatever it might be. Do not give it to all 10 of them right away. Because if you do that, then they might all have great feedback. But what happens if they’re not aligned? Mm-Hmm.
AJV (36:31):
I will tell you about that. That’s great advice. Not just for writing a book. That’s great advice for life. It’s like, so often we get bad advice and it’s because we ask the wrong questions or we ask the wrong people. So to be super tight and small and considerate with who you’re asking to do something, I think it’s really why sound advice for writing a book, but also for life no matter what it is that you’re doing it’s being very intentional with who’s the one giving you some of that feedback. I love that. That’s just good life advice.
BW (37:08):
And I can’t say I came up with it myself. If I could get add like one additional thing, have a mentor. Hmm. Have somebody that you’re trying to model. Like as I was playing in the minor leagues, I would watch film of other left-handed pitchers that I wanted to emulate. I was watching Clayton Kershaw, I was watching John Lester. Why? Because they were the person that I wanted to be. So, and there’s gonna be some creative, you know, latitude for you to work with. It is your book, it’s your writing style. Like this isn’t a true copy and paste, but as far as that, don’t waste your editor’s advice. My writing mentor told me that. So if you wanna write a book, if you wanna start a business, you wanna play in the big league, it’s like, get somebody that has done it before and say, Hey, if you were in my shoes, what would you be thinking about that? Again, it’s probably more like life advice than anything, but if you’re listening to this and you’re thinking about writing, awesome. Find somebody who’s written, Hmm. Give ’em a call.
AJV (38:07):
And I think one of the underlying things that you’re saying across this is like, don’t be afraid to invest in yourself. Right? It’s like, it’s gonna be a time, money resource but there’s gonna be all different types of investments. I know that you work a lot of weekends and after hours, but I also imagine it probably doesn’t feel like work. It feels like a passion, it feels like a hobby, like a purpose. But I also know that you invest a lot of resources and of your own money into doing this. And I think that’s just something that let’s not, you know, not address, you know, the elephant of the room. Like this is no joke. This is going to be an investment of energy, time, money and resources. Anything you wanna add to that?
BW (38:55):
Well, yeah, totally. If if it wasn’t a book, if it was some other widget that you don’t sell for $12, you’re starting a business. Like if you’re starting a donut shop, you wouldn’t expect, oh, I think I’ll spend like, I mean 97, 90 $8 to get this thing started. Like, no, you’re spending thousands of dollars, tens of thousands, maybe hundreds depending on the project to start your business. And so it would just depend on the book that you’re writing. There’s nothing wrong with writing something where it’s more like a journal for the eventual grandkids. Totally fine. But if you say no, like, I want to write a book, I want it to be published and I want it to change people’s lives. Don’t expect to do that without an investment. Hmm. Whether it’s time, money, or both. And so you shared it on the front end of the call. How’d you put it? You said something like, I can’t not share this. That’s when you know you have a book in you. If you have something you can’t not share, it’s just like, oh, if I could just share this one thing with the world, like I, I would, I have to. It’s like, well, you totally can.
AJV (39:59):
I love
BW (40:00):
That. Sit down at the desk 90 minutes a day, you know, every day except for Sunday and it will happen like that. That’s been my, that’s been my strategy. And I think that’s one area where playing pro sports, specifically baseball has helped. We had a game every day. Mm-Hmm.
BW (40:54):
And it will be hard. But sometimes, I mean, when it, when it comes to something worth doing, it’s always hard. Hmm. It’s always hard and it’s worth it. I’m already writing my second book. Like it was, it was such a rewarding experience and I’m, you know, I’m kind of like geeking out on this right now, but it’s just what an amazing thing to set your mind to something and finish it. And now moving forward I can share that with people. Mm-Hmm. Like the conversations that you have as a result of your book, the Doors that open, and it’s not for money, fame, anything like that. I now have a connection piece with friends, family, colleagues. I was just at the gym last night and there’s this gal that I’ve kind of worked out alongside for like years and it’s one of those gym relationships where you kinda like give ’em a head nod.
BW (41:48):
It’s like, Hey, I see you every Thursday, but like, we don’t, we don’t talk and Tina talk, actually know each other.
AJV (42:25):
Oh man, I love that. And I love that too of just that great reminder. It’s like, you know, half of it, it’s just showing up. It’s just showing up. I, that just, it reminds me about some of like the early advice I got as a new mom. It’s like, you know, half of the success of parenting is just showing up. It’s just showing up and you gotta do it and you gotta do it every day. Right. You gotta do it every day. And you mentioned something there, it’s like, well you said it’s like, well, you know, it’s like I can’t not share this. And so as we’re kind of like rounding out towards the end of our interview here, it’s like, what is it that you can’t not share? So tell us a little bit about this new book that’s coming out. It releases January, 2023, our Heart’s Desire. Tell us like what, what’s this book all about?
BW (43:09):
Yeah. like you said, it’s called Our Heart’s Desire Subtitles, how our stories reveal the thing we want Most. And so I’m a Christian. I love God. This book is, and it’s so funny cuz you and I hadn’t talked about this. You read the Bible this year. That, that’s amazing. That’s so cool. We should do it together next year.
AJV (43:31):
It’s been, revel a revelation of my perspective of, you know, I’m actually this book I was just reading live No Lies. One of the things it said, it’s like, you know, the Bible is a historical work. And so it’s like I have both read the Bible, both in a historical perspective as well as a, you know, spending time with God, perspective of learning and growing and that, but it’s been more of a, a knowledge journey of a, a historical record. And it’s, to view it that way has been extraordinary. And it’s like I’m now taking that approach with books of like, there are, you know, just these different facets of how you learn. And it’s been so exci. I can’t wait to read your book. I told you earlier, it’s not in my office, it’s next to my bedside. And so I’m so excited to read it. So tell everyone else about it. I’ll stop talking.
BW (44:20):
Yeah, no, that, that was my fault. That was my tangent. I’ll own that. But in, in terms of this book, aj, the reason why that caught my ear, you reading the Bible last year, I’ve done that every year, year for the last five years. Wow. Wow. I have a mentor here in Nashville that recommended that I do it, and it’s just become my routine. Wow. Like, I wake up in the morning, I read the Bible for 20, 30 minutes, whatever that day warrants. And so that doesn’t make me an expert on scripture. I would never claim that. But it does mean I am constantly reminding myself of that story. And so as I had written a couple of those books, like I said a few minutes ago that stopped and started and didn’t go anywhere. I was also learning about story and about writing and stuff like that because that seed had been planted and I was kind of getting there.
BW (45:08):
And so this book came about because I’m learning about story and also reading the story of scripture. And what I realized was the, the similarities between the two mm-hmm.
BW (46:04):
That’s wild. Because you could have humans writing books, writing screenplays in Hollywood. They keep telling that same story, hero villain, love interest to be saved. We want to return to paradise. And then you think about the desires of our heart. Like even we could even take, you know, God out of it for a second. If you look at society, if you look at your window and you say, this is wrong, or you look at any sort of like social dilemma or things like that, all we’re trying to do, AJ is restore paradise. That’s it. Like we just wanna live in paradise. That’s what we are made for. And so if the Bible is God’s word, which I wholeheartedly believe it is, we’ll have that. What an amazing thing. Now God, as the author of that story, has a specific way that he wants that to unfold.
BW (46:57):
But we have the same desire that he does. It’s just that we’re like on the hamster wheel of, oh, let me get to Paradise faster. Mm-Hmm.
BW (47:52):
Hmm. So as the person who’s read the Bible, you know, the last five years, like, all right, well, but I grew up in the church. I’ve been going to Christian schools since seventh grade. Like, so I was in it, I was around it. If there’s somebody who wants to know God but didn’t have that, what would they do? Hmm. Because they’re not, I can open the King James and like, oh, you know, oh, I totally get this right. But I believe as humans, like just on a, on a heart level, we have this story written on our hearts. We want to return to that paradise. We wanna see every tear wiped away. And if what the Bible says is true, that’s exactly what God plans for us. It can give us so much hope. Yeah. So that’s the book.
AJV (48:39):
I hope that it sells millions of copies and I hope that it gets in hands, the hands of millions of people. But I know it’s in my hands, it’s on my bedside and it’s gonna be one of my first reads of 2023. And I would encourage any of you listening, if that sounds appealing to you, to get to see, you know, the work of a first time author to bring this out, but also this really creative and unique depiction of how do we take these pop cultural references and movies and shows and love stories that we’re so accustomed to and start, how do we apply this and learn about the Bible? Then that might be a book for you. So Bob, tell people where can they go to order a copy of the book and where can they go to learn more about you?
BW (49:20):
Yeah. Best place is just bob wheatley.com. Have everything for you there, Bob wheatley.com. You can place an order. We are also given away the audiobook completely free for anybody that pre-orders. So depending on when you listen to this it’s probably still gonna be available for you. Just go to bob wheatley.com. If you place that order, it’ll be super easy right there on the homepage. First name, email your receipt number, and then boom, you have an additional five hours of my voice. So hopefully that’s not a detractor. Maybe I should
AJV (50:01):
So I love that y’all check out Bob. Go to bob wheatley.com. You can order a copy of our Heart’s Desire and if you do it as a presale you’re gonna get a free copy of the audiobook so you can listen and give the copy away. But if you also just wanna learn more about Bob and his story you can get all of his social media handles on his website. We’ll also put all of those in the show notes. Bob, thank you so much. It was so awesome to have you on the show to hear about the journey, but also learn about the book. I’m so excited for you. I hope this gets in the hands of exactly who needs it. We love you, we support you and to everyone else we’ll catch you next time on the Influential Personal Brand. We’ll see you later.
Ep 345: Be a Better Networker with Megan Roudebush | Recap Episode
AJV (00:02):
Hey y’all, AJ Vaden here and welcome to the recap episode of my conversation with Megan Rabu from Keep With Y’all. Such a information helpful interview that has ongoing tech based solutions. But just generally speaking, the importance of relationship building, aka networking was such a powerful conversation because there were three big things that came out of this conversation that I think is very applicable to you. Whether or not you use Keep with the app or use any sort of technology. These are just really great reminders around networking, again, aka relationship building. So here’s the first one I think is really important is as any sort of business or personal you know, realm, I guess what the word is, whatever the word is, like whatever your sphere is, business or personal, you need to be really clear about knowing who you wanna be introduced to.
AJV (01:11):
It doesn’t matter if you are a stay at home mom who just moved to a new town. It’s like what type of friends do you wanna meet? You know, it’s like what type of activities do you want your kids to be involved with? Like, what type of families do you want your family to meet? Like that’s really important of just being really super clear both personally and professionally of who am I trying to meet? Who am I trying to build as my sphere? Who do I wanna surround myself with? Because if you’re not intentional with that, it will happen by default and you’ll look up one day and go, I don’t fit here, or I don’t feel like I’m growing here. Or I feel, I feel out of place in my own friend group or church group or professional networking group. And it’s because it wasn’t done with strategic planning or strategic effort from the get-go.
AJV (02:00):
So I just love that. And some tactical advice on that of just going like, who are the people that I’m actually trying to build as a part of my network, right? What type of people are they? What do they do? What do they think? How do they, you know, view personal development? Who are they trying to meet? Like what is it that you wanna have in common? Are these people that you wanna be able to do business and life with? Are these people that you are searching on cause you want to learn from them? Versus are you trying to have a reciprocal business, you know, referral relationship with them? Or you know, just like what is the intent of the individuals that you want to be in your sphere? What are their psychographics and what are their demographics, right? I think that’s really important. Like, do you care about, are they in a very similar life stage of you?
AJV (02:46):
Should they be married, single with kids without kids, certain age range? I think those are things are really important. So that you just, you start building this intentional network. And then from there it’s asking yourself, who do I want to be introduced to from these people? And I think that’s where a lot of us struggle, just as much of going, who do I wanna be in business with? Like, who do I want to do business with? And you know, we use this example on the podcast so that if, you know, if you’re a real estate agent and you go, I just wanna be introduced to anyone who’s looking to buy or sell a home, as you know, a human being, it’s really hard for me to pinpoint an individual when I’m going. I think that’s anyone potentially. I’m sure I know someone.
AJV (03:33):
Let me think about it and I’ll get back to you. And that’s a very typical common response that we hear in business when somebody says, Hey, do you know someone who’s looking to buy or sell a home as this specific example? Versus if someone said, Hey I am a, you know, home buyers, you know, agent who specifically works with first time home buyers who have just moved or who have been relocated for work to the Nashville, Tennessee area. So do you know anyone who is brand new to Tennessee who’s maybe been renting, who’s gonna be a first time home buyer who is not from this area and has potentially moved here in the last two to five years? Well, it’s like immediately I know literally five people who are currently renting who have moved here from rather New York, Colorado, or California along with Half City and who I’ve been talking about just waiting for the right time to buy.
AJV (04:28):
And they will be, some of them are first time home buyers, some aren’t. But the fact that it’s like, I want to know someone who has moved here in the last two to five years and I’m going, Ding, bing, bing, bing, bing. So it’s just being really clear on who you want your sphere to be and then who you want to be referred to. So I think that was like the first eye opening part of this conversation of most of us aren’t really good at networking or, you know, strategic relationship building or asking for referrals is we’re not actually clear on who we wanna build relationships with, with and who we want to be referred to. So that’s kind of step one. The second thing is, you know, what’s your game plan for actually relationship building? And I loved what she said that was again, should be so not an aha moment for me, but it was around the importance of, you know, networking and relationship building happens everywhere you go.
AJV (05:20):
So I view it as, you know, what are, what are you doing for volunteering and how are you meeting people doing that versus, you know, who are you meeting and spending time with on different wellness endeavors? So I love to go hiking, I love going to bar class. I love going on long walks. It’s like, who am, who am I like doing those types of things with as a part of relationship building, not just going to coffee and having lunch but it’s actually creating memories, creating experiences doing things that really help you get to know someone versus just having coffee,
AJV (05:56):
Exchanging business information or questions. It’s now it’s like I, I wanna relationship build through volunteer work and through doing life things together that I can see you on a regular basis and continue these conversations and help you get to know me and help me get to know you. And I love that concept. So, so good. And then the last thing that I would say is just this importance of this mutual opt-in is what she called it. A double opt-in of making sure whenever you connect people through referrals that both people are giving you permission. And so instead of just firing off an email cuz it’s easier, it’s making sure that person A has agreed to be connected and person B has been, has agreed to be connected because that creates this reciprocal trust environment where you’re not getting random emails of going, Why, why, why are you introducing me to this person?
AJV (06:49):
I don’t know. I’m really busy right now where it’s like, no, I’m giving you a heads up aj. Hey, I really think you should meet this person and here’s why. Are you okay if I introduce you with me going, Yeah, that’d be great, Pass it along. The other person gets the same thing. So when the intro happens, I’m all that more ready and excited to accept it and to act on it. Simple, but so wise, so wise and would make me quite honestly that more, much more willing to go, Yeah, how can I help? What can I do? Yes, but it’s a part of building this trusted network where we’re all signing off on it. And people aren’t ghosting you because there’s been this mutual agreement in advance that yes, this is a good time for me, I want to do that. And so nobody is feeling left out or left behind because there wasn’t any response. So, so many good tips. Go check out the full interview, check out, Keep with you can go to keep with.com to learn more, but go listen to the full interview with Megan Rabu and we’ll catch you next time on the Influential Personal Brand. See you later.
Ep 344: Be A Better Networker with Megan Roudebush
AJV (00:02):
Hey everybody, AJ Vaden here and welcome to another episode on the Influential Personal Brand podcast. I am so excited to introduce you to a newer friend of mine, Megan Roudebush. It was referred to me by a mutual friend when she was accidentally previewing this cool a she had been working on. And then I said, Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. I need to learn more about this app. Who made this app? What does this app do? And I was literally so enthralled with it. I was like, Can you please introduce me to your friends, which is Megan. So all of you are gonna get to hear from Megan, and just a quick second. But before we do that, I just wanna remind you of why you need to, we need to stick around to the very end of this show. So if you consider yourself someone who struggles networking, this is the episode for you.
AJV (00:52):
If you consider yourselves an introvert, and that’s just quote unquote, not your thing this is an episode that you need to listen to if you struggle with meeting new people engaging in relationships, getting referrals, getting word of mouth business. Once again, this episode was specifically designed with you in mind. So please, please stick your hands. Now let me give you a little bit of a formal introduction of Megan. She has so many cool things in her bio. I was literally like, What, what should I talk about? There’s like so many cool things that I will just kind of give you some highlights here. Megan is the founder of an amazing network, pla platform called Keep With that you’re gonna get to learn about. It’s an app. It just launched in two 2022. So like right now it’s like so fresh and new.
AJV (01:45):
She’s also spent much of her career as a financial compliance officer. So not only has she created this amazing technology, she knows a whole lot about how to keep data safe and how to do things the right way. But in addition to that, she has helped teach poetry, poetry, writing classes in juvenile detention centers. She has interviewed people such as Chuck Norris at the ripe age of eight, I think, I think I was that young. She’s got such a cool and varied background, and today she’s going to help teach us how to keep it interesting, how to be a better networker, and how to build a world of math business. So well, without further ado, Maggie, welcome to the show.
MR (02:27):
Aj, thank you so much for having me. It’s a pleasure and I love the way we ended up here literally having dinner with Amanda in Denver, so just couldn’t be more thrilled to be
AJV (02:36):
Here. Oh my gosh, I’m so excited. And I want to help our audience get to know you a little bit before we jump in and start talking about networking and just the app world in general since like you’re fresh. I mean, you’re really not even out of it yet. You’re still in it, but I think that’s like such a world that everyone is curious about. And I would love to hear your story of how did you come to the idea of creating this app? And then just some advice for all of the listeners of how do you know when you’re ready for an app, What is your advice on making an app? Then I wanna actually tell our audience what Keep With is all about. And through that process, everybody is gonna learn how to be a better networker. So how did this idea come up? How did you go from financial compliance and all of these things to creating this app?
MR (03:24):
So, so many questions I wanted just answer them all at the exact same time, which will not serve your listeners very well at all. So I started Keep with the boring answer is that as a grownup in the world I was known to be very careful with relationships. So a native New Yorker, grew up in New York City, moved to Chicago, Vdidn’t know anybody. And when I got here, I was very careful and methodical about building my network. I joined the Executives Club of Chicago. I, you know, ended up at Deloitte, started to build my network, and I had built a re a reputation for being careful and cautious. If I wanted to introduce you to somebody, I would have to get both of your permission first, right? I would not connect with anyone on a social media platform with whom I had not spoken or met.
MR (04:08):
Hmm. And so I was getting asked to speak and write about networking a lot, and I thought, Hey, I think there’s a company here, at least an LLC somewhere to put the speaking fees, right? So that’s the boring answer. The really cool answer, and you’ve hit on it, is I grew up as a kid reporter in New York City. And so from the time I was eight till the time I was 18, I was interviewing grownups about really important world problems. Interviewed Chuck Norris because he was involved in Dare that anti-drug platform, right? Also interviewed Janet Reno, you know, covered political conventions, got to meet Amy Tan. But as a kid reporter, you learn how to ask questions, open-ended ones specifically, and to care about the world. And so when I think of keyless origin story, when you’re networking and you’re really truly authentically building relationships, you’re asking questions and caring about the world. So we started in 2017, formed an llc, learned how to name a company that’s probably a whole other podcast episode, have really good IP council, that would be my tip there. And started to get hired by companies across industry and sector to help their people build relationships better. That’s how we industry agnostic, sector geography. And then eventually, and we can talk about it, we knew that we needed to build a technological solution to support our work.
AJV (05:26):
Yeah. So I, so I’m curious, like, there’s two things that you said that I think are really important that are often overlooked is the importance of caring. Now, you said about, you know, things going on in the world, but it also could be transposed to just caring about what’s going on with other people, which I think is, you know, a key relationship starter and the importance of asking open ended questions, which, you know, as a journalist or reporter, that’s just kind of what you’re taught to do. But as normal people in a business networking environment, I don’t think that’s very common. So can you expand on that just a little bit of like, how do you create a desire or a curiosity in someone else when most of us are mentally worried about, what am I gonna say next? Not, you know, I really wanna learn about you. Like, just tell me, and instead we’re more of like, Well, how can I tell you about what I do? So how do you kind of flip that switch?
MR (06:23):
You know, I, I think it’s really important, aj, you, you hit the nail on the head again, relationship building is reciprocal. And I recently heard somebody say that you should envision your eyes really big. Your ear is really big in your mouth, really small, right? And, and I, I think that’s important. So for anyone, and I actually deal with this with my seven year old, I’m like, don’t think about what you’re gonna say to me next before we actually have this conversation. For anybody who is prioritizing what they need to say next and what their message is over learning about someone else, that’s where you flip the script. Mm-Hmm.
AJV (07:40):
AJV (08:27):
Which is, why did you get into this business in the first place? Like, why did you get into this business in the first place? Instead of, you know, what do you do? It’s like, find that out and be like, How’d you get into that? Why did you get into that? But then also I love that second question is like, Hey, what do you find most rewarding about this business that you’re in? Like, those are real conversation starters that are slightly different than just what do you do? Which starts and ends pretty much the same way every time you ask it. So are there any other go to kind of questions that you would say would be really helpful in that environment?
MR (09:04):
For sure. And I’d also, if we can like to put a pin in something that you said for after we answer this question, cuz you, you mentioned something really important. You know, you can ask what someone is working on these days. You can ask what somebody, what brought the person to this event, right? If you are at an in-person networking event, what brought you here today? Because is either they’re gonna tell you about the person who invited them, and that’s an interesting story and maybe a way for you to expand your network or they’ll say, I was really excited about the speaker, or I really wanna join the organization. Or, I’m new to Chicago and don’t know anybody. And so those are all different things. What are some of your challenges right now? You know, what are you, what are you working on next year? Right now, one of my favorite things about this time of year is that there’s so many holiday events happening and it’s prime network. Like from a networking nerd perspective, I’m like all of all of the events, all of the parties, everyone’s having their annual gathering, right? And so you could say like, what’s your favorite holiday? Like, what is your go to? What is that one holiday event that you have to go to every year that is always on your calendar? Like, that’s just kind of a fun thing.
AJV (10:14):
Yeah, that’s a great question.
MR (10:16):
But you mentioned not necessarily feeling comfortable in a large gathering with a drink in your hand and wanting to go to the bathroom a lot.
AJV (10:25):
It funny, I dunno,
MR (10:26):
I’m, I’m a consummate extrovert, but I’m really finding that in this covid prepost covid situation, I, I’m extrovert to the, to the cows come home. However, even I have these introverted moments. What I would say is you may not have to stand in a large ballroom with a drink in your hand. If you prefer networking one on one, go for a walk with somebody, do a workout with somebody have a zoom with them. Mm-Hmm.
AJV (11:15):
That is such an important reminder cuz I think so often we get stuck in this idea specifically around business networking, that it has to happen around some sort of business oriented event. Or we’ve convinced ourselves that, you know, we need to be at this type of meeting or association to make it work. And that that really isn’t true. You know, I’m a much better networker in small group settings where I can actually get to know someone and not get interrupted or feel pressured to go like, make the rounds. And I think that’s a really great reminder. So I think this would be like valuable. What are, are all of the different ways to kind of kind of help open up people’s minds and broaden their perspectives around what is networking, which is just another way of saying relationship building, but what is, what are all the ways to network that really make a meaningful difference?
MR (12:08):
And you, you’re exactly right. We say that networking is the building and maintaining of meaningful relationships for personal and professional reasons in support of the goals of the people that you know and the people that they know. That’s a mouthful
MR (12:56):
And so then you’re surrounded by another sphere of influence where you’re on the board with other people who care about that. Mm-Hmm.
AJV (13:56):
Congratulations. Thank
MR (13:58):
You.
AJV (13:59):
Cool.
MR (13:59):
I’m gonna meet 50,000 other people who share this interest in doing this. Really I would say maybe outlandish, but really kind of grandiose thing. But training and training with other people and having that common interest or bond, you know, wellness focused networking is one of my personal passions.
AJV (14:15):
Yeah. And I really love, there are two things there that kind of just blow my mind a little bit. Cause I, they seem so duh, but at the same time, I, they’re not, which is volunteerism. I mean, when I just think about it, it’s like the act of doing things to add together. It’s like you’re making memories, you’re creating experiences. It’s not just that, you know, I think it’s one of the things that most people challenged or challenged with is, I don’t have time for another coffee. Right. I hear that a ton from people in our community. And honestly, sometimes I felt it’s like, man, I don’t have time for another coffee. But it’s like, but at the, at my core, like I know how important it is to make that time to network. But then it’s like there is something meaningful about it, doing it while you’re doing something else, like volunteering or wellness.
AJV (15:04):
And it’s like I go to the same bar three class that’s like my preferred workout of choice every Tuesday, Thursday, and Saturday. And it’s like my favorite instructor, I just go to whatever she’s doing, like whatever class. But it’s like we’ve, we’ve become really good friends. And then through the process of just chatting after class one day she made a comment around, she’s gotta go get dressed up. And I was like, Oh, what for? And she was like, Oh, well my PR company, I was like, PR company. What do you mean PR company? And she goes, Yeah, in addition to owning the studio also I’m a partner and a PR company. I was like, Wait, what? And long story short, it’s like I ended up hiring her firm. But that was, again, that’s a version of networking where people don’t view it as networking, but you gotta be able to show up.
AJV (15:50):
But I love the, I love the way, like where are the, where are the places that you see people on a regular basis, right? So training for a marathon doing Peloton at 5:00 AM you create that community volunteering. I love that when that is so cool about processing your desire to volunteer and, and give back to the community as a way of networking and building relationships. And I love the concept too of you’re building relationships through doing something together. Not just trying to learn about each other’s businesses. It feels more natural and organic. And I have never viewed it that way before.
MR (16:26):
You know, it’s interesting. I have an investor he’s one of the coolest human beings on the planet and he’s such an inspiration because he built his company in such an inspiring way. And so a really good example is when I originally reached out to him, I said, Hey, we’re looking to meet other investors and customers. And he was like, Well I don’t, I I at first he’s like, Well I’m not sure how strong my network is, right? And as he’s gotten to know me and he is gotten to know the platform, he’s like, Oh, I know all the right people to introduce you to. Right? and so that’s just been been really helpful. I would also say, you mentioned not having enough time for another coffee. And I would like us to talk about the tech we sort of for move the app aside for a second, but at least our view and the view at keep with and what we’ve built the tech on is that you should have a networking strategy.
MR (17:16):
Mm-Hmm.
AJV (17:47):
Just put it out there in case anyone listening knows person,
MR (17:50):
Putting it out there that keep with, wants to partner with Peloton. If I am having a coffee with someone and I know that they might be able to help me with that introduction or that they’re wellness focused mm-hmm
AJV (18:08):
Yeah. So I’ve got two questions for you. Both for me selfishly, but then also I figured if, you know, I have these questions, other people listening have these questions. So here would be something that I find in, again, maybe this is just a me thing, I’m guessing it’s not, is sometimes networking or, and lemme just not call it networking for a second. Saying yes to a lunch or a coffee feels very one sided. And that’s why I feel like a lot of people going, I just don’t have time to do this anymore. Cuz they don’t view it as mutually beneficial or reciprocal. And I think that is in due partly because of the person who’s trying to coordinate it isn’t helping create that reciprocal environment. And so it’s easier for you to push it off, not respond and not do it. So my first question would be for everyone listening is how do you truly network set up these meetings whether virtually or in person where somebody else is inspired to go, Yes, I wanna take that hour with you or that half hour with you, I wanna get to know you.
AJV (19:15):
I do see the mutual benefit here. And not that it all has to be about, you know, give to give. Sometimes it is just give to give. But I think there’s also an art and a science of doing that in the right way where someone says, Yeah, when can we get together? Because there is this opportunity for both parties to win. So are there any tips or best practices on how do you make that where it is this reciprocal environment from even onset of thinking about it?
MR (19:46):
Yes. And I, I feel like we could have a whole conversation just about that. How do you even start, how do you know who to even reach out to? And I do at some point wanna talk about the tech cuz we have some tools in the tech to get you there. But you should be very aware of what your most important relationships are of all the different pockets of your network within those pockets. You know, who’s in your close group of key advisors, who would you call on a Friday night if something good or something bad happened? Mm-Hmm.
AJV (20:43):
Can I pause it there? Cause you said you in my opinion, glance over something that I think is wildly important. And what you just said, I think from my experience is where most people fail miserably. They do not know who they wanna meet
MR (21:06):
So there’s this tool out there aj and it’s gonna help people with that and I’m really excited. But no, you’re exactly right. So I
AJV (21:52):
Amen. Love that.
MR (21:54):
So maybe your kid has gone through the college application process recently and you can help a friend whose kid is now going through the college application process. Maybe you speak a language, maybe you’re a super connector. What are all the ways that I can add value to you? And have that list right? Then you can think about what are all the things that I need in the world right now? I could really use some help figuring out a new web developer cuz I got an email before this call that my web developer is going in a different direction. Or how can I get a new book agent because our book agent has transitioned away whatever the case may be. So have your list of the ways that you can add value. Mm-Hmm.
MR (22:38):
And those will then when I say to you at the end of a networking meeting, Hey aj, how can I be helpful to you right now? You can be like, actually I really need help with X in Chicago. But you also said people don’t know who they wanna meet. That is exactly true. And I will say to you, and I did say to you at the end of our first conversation, who are you looking to meet these days? And so in our Tech Keep West platform is really air traffic control for your relationship building and it helps you focus on who you know, who you wanna meet, your networking goals, who your people wanna meet. So if I know that you’re looking to meet clients in Chicago, I can note that and then I can add value to you every time I see a prospective client for you that builds the reciprocal nature.
AJV (23:26):
Yeah. So I think this is a great transition to talk a little bit about keep with, Cause I think one of the biggest challenges that people struggle with is just staying organized. It’s making time, it’s tracking it. Not everyone has a personal CRM or a database, not most companies do, but not all. But on a personal perspective it’s like that’s kind of the genesis of LinkedIn when it started, but yet it doesn’t do it in this strategic element. And this is what drew me in when we were, when I was meeting with our mutual friend Amanda, and she was previewing this app again, not intentionally. And I was like, Wait, this is so cool. And it was one of those things where you just recognize a need and you’re like, the reason it stuck out to me is because every single person in the brand builder’s community at some point has said, I need more of this type of client.
AJV (24:18):
I need more of these types of relationships. And they struggle with being strategic when asking of knowing who to ask, when to ask how often to ask. And there’s just a lot of, there’s a lot of, it’s, some of it’s just organization of keeping track. So if you have a desire to really be helpful and give and an effort of going, Hey, it’s like how can I serve the people around me? What can I give to people? Knowing that is the best relationship building tool you can do is just be willing to give. This is an amazing way of staying organized and tracking and making sure when life gets busy, you don’t forget all the important stuff. So tell us what is keep with and what does it do and like how does it help the everyday person like me?
MR (25:03):
For sure. So think of Keep with as air traffic control for your relationship building. And what it does is it brings together your connections, personal and professional from all the different places where you have them. So you probably have people in your social channels, you have people in your phone, you have your holiday card list, You probably as a business owner have a crm. It syncs to to CRMs and it’s a way to bring all of your people together. But it also includes the networking events that you will attend and the introductions that you are fostering and who you wanna meet and your networking goals all in one place. And then there’s a content library where you can learn how to network better. And it’s always great to have that, that educational component, but it’s bringing all of your relationship building into one platform.
MR (25:53):
It allows you to prioritize your relationships. So our mutual friend Amanda’s company had some pretty amazing success with her sales based on using our methodology, which we’re really proud of. It allows you to have a list of who you wanna meet. And so then when you’re on a plane and you sit next to somebody who knows somebody that and they say, Hey, who are you looking to meet? You’re like, Actually, I wanna meet these three people. Right? And it’s, it’s just such a great tool. One of our investors said she wished she had an executive assistant following her around to every meeting. And we don’t typically have that. But we do have keep with. And so we are enterprise facing first. We’re starting with businesses though any individual user can sign up now. But we’re B2B first and then we’ll be expanding to to b2c. There’s no spam, there’s no ads. And all introductions require consent of both people being introduced, which prevents people from flinging themselves at you in an, in an unwanted way.
AJV (26:49):
Thank you for that.
MR (26:58):
Sure. So our overall website is keep with.com and if people want to sign up, it is a paid app. You go to platform dot keep with.com and you register and sign up first, and then you download it to your device. So it’s available on iOS, Android, and web. And on our website Keep with.com you can view a demo video and anyone can also reach out to me as well.
AJV (27:24):
Awesome. Well, we’ll make sure to put all of that in the show notes to make sure everyone’s got it. But you can go to keep with.com or then platform dot keep with.com if you wanna actually get the app. Now continuing our conversation on this, you know, networking adventure that we are all on, whether or not we admit it. So we had talked about this a little bit of most people aren’t super clear on who they wanna ask for, which is probably the number one deterrent of asking. And I have been a part of so many networking meetings where I have said, Hey, who can I, you know, introduce you to, who are you looking to be connected with? Or we do a lot of facilitated networking events at Brand Builders group and they do not do what they’re supposed to do.
AJV (28:09):
And instead what they do is, Well, just tell me about your business. Instead of going, Well, this is who I am strategically looking to be introduced to. So what advice do you have for the person out there who’s going, Well, I thought I was doing that when in turn they are not, because not everyone is your audience. And I can just think of so many examples where they go, Well, I’m looking to be introduced to anyone who is interested in buying a home. Well, that’s a really broad statement. So how do you, how do you narrow it down where someone can immediately go, I know someone like that. What tips do you have to help people narrow it in?
MR (28:49):
So it, it’s funny as, as somebody who always found math challenging, I can’t believe I’m gonna give us an equation, but I’m gonna give us an equation. So we’ll do this as kind of a fill in the blank. So you can think of it as a networking goal is an objective that you are looking to accomplish with the power of your network behind you. Really simple. And, and like I said earlier, what any goal, if you’re looking to do anything, move to a new place, get a new job, get a new client become more fit, whatever the case may be, any networking goal, you know, any goal can be a networking goal, but the way that you should think about it is, I am networking to X land meet, introduce, volunteer for the purposes of
AJV (29:32):
Y
MR (29:33):
And you can get even more specific and say, you know, I am networking to meet home buyers in this market looking to spend this dollar range for the purposes of X. Or I’m looking to meet people who know lots of people who want to buy houses, right? Because then they’re the super connectors and you get more bang for your buck. So it’s having networking goals that are specific and include why you wanna meet the person. If I just tell you, Hey aj, I wanna meet Barry McCarthy, the CEO of Peloton, you’re like, That’s nice, Who doesn’t? But if I say I wanna meet Barry McCarthy because I know that Peloton is a new tech solution and he wants to add apps to his platform and that I know at a micro level we’ve really helped people in the community connect better. Mm-Hmm.
AJV (30:28):
Yeah. And I love that too. Because we talk a lot about getting really clear on what, you know, you’re talking about like your, you know, networking strategy in terms of people, we would call it your avatar. It’s like know exactly who your avatar is. It’s not I’m looking for home buyers. It’s looking say, Hey, I wanna serve home buyers who are new and I live in Tennessee who are new to Middle Tennessee, so I wanna serve that market who is, you know, an out of state transplant who is looking to buy a home, who is, you know, spending this amount of money X, Y, and Z. But you’ve added a whole nother level of, but why, why this type of person? And I think that’s really unique. So can you just put a little bit more context around that because I think that part will really help it stick. That’s the sticky part of that personal connection that why to it
MR (31:20):
There’s a trust and an authenticity to to relationship building that really, really matters. Mm-Hmm.
AJV (32:13):
Yeah.
MR (32:13):
Because it’s based on something
AJV (32:15):
Mm-Hmm.
MR (33:02):
So first and foremost I always encourage people, keep with, always encourages people to be a connector, to always be thinking about who you can introduce. The key most critical component is to get double opt-in first. Mm-Hmm.
AJV (33:57):
Mm. I like that. So just to clarify, I wanna make sure everyone hears that quickly. Get permission from both parties before you make the mutual introduction. So if I had, if I’m like, Oh my gosh, I just met someone today, they need to meet Megan. It’s like, Hey Megan, hey, I met someone today. I really love to introduce you. Are you okay with that? As well as telling my friend Bob Smith, Hey Bob, you want me to introduce you to Megan? Great. And then I, then I make the connection, right?
MR (34:23):
And that is currently a pretty clunky process. You do emails, but we’ve solved for that with the technology. So we have double opt in, I select, you select me, you select Bob, we both get a prospective introduction, we both consent, and then the introduction proceed. Awesome.
AJV (34:38):
So it takes care, the automation takes care of all of the personalized manual work that you would be doing otherwise.
MR (34:45):
And you then can keep track of, oh, I sent Megan three potential introductions and she declined all of them, right? Oh, so they proceed. That also gives you some intel. So getting double optin, but I would also just say on a very fun level, build the person up that you are introducing. My favorite things to do is send a note to two people and tell them why they’re awesome. Mm. You know, you need to know you. And very rarely it’ll just like, my gut will just tell me, the universe will be better if you two know each other. And so I’ll say that. I’ll say, These are the rock star things about this person. These are the rock star things about this person. And I have no specific goal or purpose, but I just know two HR experts need to make the world better, right? Mm-Hmm.
AJV (35:47):
Yes. Which most people won’t do typically, right? But I love that. I love that buildup where both people feel so complimented that the, you know, flattery does go somewhere sometimes flattery helps a lot. And I love the other thing that you said too is explain why they should connect. I feel like when I get a bunch of introduction, you know, emails, it’s often at the end of it I’m like, I hear you’re awesome. I’m not sure exactly why they wanted us to get together. I’m willing to meet, but it’s like most of my willingness comes out of my desire to keep my relationship strong with whoever sent this random connection. Because the context of here’s why you need to meet is missing. So I think that is really important to build both parties up and then connect the dots. And then here’s why I think you guys need to meet each other.
MR (36:42):
And it’s also so important that we’ve really, like your network is your most important asset. Mm-Hmm.
AJV (37:20):
I love that. And I think that’s really, really important of you’re not just connecting people that you don’t know, but there is a trusted relationship that you are passing on to another trusted relationship. I love that. This is so good. Okay, last question. Watching the clock, I’m paying attention. So last question. What do you think people need to know about networking that they don’t know?
MR (37:48):
The importance of making time to do it? So I think a lot of people think if they stay heads down in their work, they’ll, you know, so it’s very important to take deliberate time to network. I also think that people do not think enough about including personal and professional members of your network. Mm-Hmm.
AJV (38:49):
I love that. I love just be discerned of who comes in, who stays in. I think that’s a really important just reminder to us all is I just, I somebody referred, I just remember this time last year I was at a conference, a summit of a really good friend who was hosting it and I was one of the speakers and one of the sponsors of the events concert. I just naturally assumed worked with the person who was putting on the event. I was like, well, there’s no way she would’ve had a sponsor come speak on her behalf unless that she was a client. That was a very bad assumption of mine. So I hired this company for tens of thousands of dollars, had a horrific experience. 60 days in, I’m like, no. And so I reached out to my friend, I’m like, Hey, I just, I want you to know.
AJV (39:39):
And they were like, she’s like, Oh my gosh, I didn’t know. And I’m like, Have you not ever worked with ’em? And she goes, No. And I was like, Oh my gosh. Was like such a great reminder of ask don’t make assumptions. And then I was, I went back to this company and I was like, listen, this is a hundred percent not what was advertised. Like this is not okay. This, I had to get so many other people involved to even like, get out of this contract because I’m like, I really did it based on my assumption that somebody else’s trust that that’s what they were putting in front of their audience. And I was so wrong and that’s my fault. That’s no one else’s thought. I made that assumption. But to your point your, your involvement with the people around you reflects on your reputation.
AJV (40:25):
They’re an extension of you. And then I also, I lied and I have one more question cuz I said I was gonna ask it in the very beginning and then I got on this deep dark road of networking, which I think is so important. I also asked earlier about apps. How do you know when you’re ready to have an app? How, like how do you know if you should have an app? And since you have been in need deep eyeballs deep in this for almost five years, I would just love for your quick personal, you know, share with our audience of how do you know if you should have an app and how do you know when you’re ready? And that’ll be the last question, I promise.
MR (41:03):
Okay. I’m gonna go to what you first said though though because the, the what you just described about the contract and people not knowing, one of the most important questions that people need to ask is how well do you know so and so? Mm-Hmm.
MR (41:44):
So that’s just, but ditto solidarity hands at your back. I been where you’ve been
AJV (42:50):
MR (42:51):
That. Any problem? Think about it like this weekend, wherever you are. Like if someone’s like, I wish we had, it’s like, I think there’s got, I think I’ve heard there’s gotta be a startup fixing that. And so I wanted to be the startup that fixed networking. And so we started to go down this path. We raised some capital very quickly. Some other time we can talk about the traction and the speed and there was a whole bunch of excitement and capital raised and I was introduced to Amanda and, and the tech started and away we went. And so working with the app at team and their unparalleled professionalism and excellence and UI experience and they just got us our mutual friend once said to me, It’s great that you’re my client and we’re building the tech together, but you’ve changed my life and that’s what relationships do.
MR (43:34):
So I knew we were ready when we were getting companies around the world, across industry and sectors saying that they were finding it hard. And so I thought then we are in our houses. Hello, welcome to my kitchen. Right? And so we had to use technology to stay connected even if we’re one of those people who say that we hate doing it on Zoom. So there were a whole confluence of factors and we’ve now built tech that has looked at the pain points of existing solutions that is really based on who you know and who you wanna meet. No spam, no ads, no noise. And we feel like we’ve built something that’s really gonna help people to build relationships better.
AJV (44:10):
No, I love that. And I think, you know, some of that is, you know, it’s definitely not easy, but it’s also kind of simple of going, it’s, you know, basic laws of, you know, supply and demand. It’s like you were having a lot of demand. That’s how you knew. It’s like I have to do something that’s more scalable. Something that is more far reaching than me just being on stages. That can only, you can only do so many. And so I think looking at the demand, I think that’s a really good tip for anyone who’s listening of going, Are people asking for what you do? To the point that like, I don’t have enough bandwidth to continue doing it because I’m getting asked so often to help with X, Y, or Z. Is the demand there enough and is it scalable enough? But there’s an opportunity to take it into a a tech-based platform and I love that. Now you just clarifying cuz it’s like you’ve been working on this for a long time so it’s not like it’s one of those things you just whipped up over the last 12 months.
MR (45:05):
No, we, we started as keep with in in 2017 and have been developing the content and the methodology and the approach for some time. In September of 21 is when we really started to raise capital in earnest. I was introduced to Amanda cuz I needed to find the right team to build our tech. And we used our network to find the right team. And then people have talked about how quickly and beautifully we’ve been able to build technology from September to April. The, the tech launched in April of this year in beta. We spent the summer working out some bugs. It’s fully functional and now we are talking to some very large global enterprises about implementing it across their companies.
AJV (45:45):
Man, so cool, so exciting. Congratulations. Like how cool to see this idea come to fruition in such a way that is passion driven and really meant to help people make networking not so hard. It’s so awesome to have you on the show. Thank you so much. Y’all go check out, Keep with go to keep with.com or if you wanna just go ahead and download the app platform dot keep with.com. Megan, if they wanna connect with you personally, where should they go?
MR (46:17):
Sure. Megan, m e g a n Keep with.com. Just send me a note, shoot you my calendarly. You can also connect with me on Keep with and book some time. But the easiest way is [email protected].
AJV (46:30):
So cool, so generous. What a great, helpful interview. Thank you so much for being on and everyone else stay tuned for the the short recap version after this and we’ll catch you next time on the influential personal brand.
MR (46:44):
Thanks AJ.
Ep 317: Be a Better Negotiator with Mori Taheripour | Recap Episode
AJV (00:02):
All right. Y’all welcome to my recap on my conversation with Mori TaheripourAnd y’all, she’s just so cool. If you haven’t please go check out the full episode. But this is an episode full of tactical and mindset tactics when it comes to being a better negotiator, but also knowing when and how to publish a book. So we kind of got a, a twofer in this one.
AJV (01:04):
And then we get to learn about the content, which is the skillful art of negotiation. So with us that I’m gonna share my my top three takeaways from my conversation with ma and I just think she’s so wicked cool. Y’all she’s done so many amazing things, but more than that, she’s just had a heart for teaching and a passion for helping others believe in themselves more and believe in their abilities and who doesn’t love that. Right. So here are my my top three takeaways. So here was my first one. I actually, I got to have a little coaching session during this interview. So if you’re interested in seeing that or listening to that go check it out. It’s it’s worth the interview. She called me out hardcore. So that was like my first big takeaway is that our view, our perception of how the conversation is gonna go in this case, a negotiation conversation has much to do with the end result.
AJV (01:59):
And so I made a comment how I have a pretty potentially difficult meeting coming up about some financial negotiations with someone. And I use the words if I have a fighting chance and she called me out so hardcore, and she was like, why would you say that? And then it just, it doled me in a second. It’s like I have a negative view of negotiations, which is interesting because in a sales environment, I would never have that view, but in a, a salary and you know, an employee conversation, it’s like feels like a little bit of a war of defending my stance or not making someone feel like they’re not worth it at the same time, being reasonable with what we can afford and was a really helpful conversation of going, there’s no fighting here. This is not an argument. This is a conversation. And that was so helpful
AJV (02:59):
Of the way that we view things ends up our ends up dictating how the actual conversation goes and the end result of it. And it’s like, I was going in with this concept. If it was a battle, this is not a battle. This is a conversation with someone that I truly like respect value. That’s not a battle to conversation. So just changing your mindset and the way you can talk about things. I really like, I I’m tell you, I woke up today with a completely different mindset of how this conversation’s gonna start, go and end. That was different than yesterday, which is short conversation with Maria. It was so helpful. Also reminded me to finish the book
AJV (03:48):
She said that, well, this is my perception. This is my this is how I heard what she said. Some of these may not have been her words, but this is how I interpreted what she said in our conversation. And she said, negotiation is not confrontation. Negotiation is collaboration y’all but is so good. It’s like, if I can change my mindset, both in a sales oriented environment, a recruiting, hiring retention salary pay, pay, raise commission conversation, as well as, you know, as a, as a, as a customer, right? Who I’m trying to negotiate better, better rates or better deals with our vendors. Right. But if I view all of that as like, let’s come together and collaborate of what makes sense, what’s worth it to both parties. What’s a win-win versus there’s some sort of confrontation that has to take place and I’ve got to, you know, take my stance.
AJV (04:49):
So there, so do they’s like if we come from a place of being immobile, there is no negotiation. So negotiation is not about confrontation. It’s about collaboration. It’s about having a conversation where both parties leave feeling good about the situation. And that is what I want. And I bet that’s what you want. So it’s just redefining what is negotiation? It, it’s a conversation of trying to find middle ground amongst two people in a setting doesn’t even have to be a business setting. I negotiate with my five and two year old, all day long, and they are master negotiators. They do not hear no. I need to take a note out of the toddler playbook when it comes to this. But they come at it with a playful heart, a big smile on their face, but Ooh, do they know how to, like, just one more time?
AJV (05:34):
It’s like my two year old Liam constantly wants treats. He loves treats. He loves snacks. He loves treats. He’s like, oh my gosh, no, you cannot have any more lollipops kid. And he’s always just like, just a little bit. And I’m like, no, baby, not just, just a little bit mommy. And then I’ll say, okay, well just a little bit. And he goes a lot of bit mommy. And it’s like, he just is like, just a little bit, just a little bit, well, a lot, a bit. And it’s like, it’s just coming from a place of love and community and trust and playfulness, but also it’s like knowing what you want. So that’s my third takeaway. And this conversation and this, this has to do with both publishing and negotiation. But I loved what she said when she goes, it’s like, you’re never gonna get what you want until, you know what you want.
AJV (06:23):
AJV (07:03):
And I thought that was really powerful as a reminder of like, no, the book is the last thing, not the first thing. You do so much more before you ever figure out what do I really have to say? And that’s what goes in the book. And she said, a part of that is you have to know what you want. Right. You have to know that and then find a way to get there. And part of that conversation was setting up your non-negotiables, like, what are the non-negotiables that you have in your life, both personally and professionally. And I asked her what hers were and I thought they were so good. They’re at the very end of the interview. So I’m not gonna tell you what they are. You’ve gotta go listen to the interview to hear ’em. But I’ve spent a ton of time in the last 24 hours going do I, do I have non-negotiables in my life?
AJV (07:46):
And am I, am I really clear on them as a leader, as a business owner, as an entrepreneur, as my personal brand, as a mom, as a wife, as a human being, as a Christian, like, have I set forth, what are my non-negotiables that everything else is negotiated around and you gotta have those, right. And it’s like, I think one of the things I need to reset are like, what are my schedule? Non-Negotiables what will I allow and not allow to come into my schedule that will get me off track to the things that I deem most important. And that was just a really big one. And I think other ones are around, you know, I’ve got business ones, personal ones, marriage ones parenting ones. But am I super clear on what they are and do other people know what they are?
AJV (08:28):
And do I, do I live by those? Do I parent and work and conversate around those? Probably not. It was an amazing discussion. It doesn’t matter where you are in business or personal brand or just your, you know, personal life. Those are really valuable. And all in the context of negotiation collaboration and conversation. Y’all so good. I could go on for another 30 minutes on this legitimately. It was so good. So go check out the full interview check out more. I check out her book, bring yourself and stay tuned and we’ll see you next time on the influential personal brand.