Category: Podcast

Ep 254: NFL to Shark Tank to Ecomm with Chris Gronkowski

RV (00:07):
So excited to meet for the first time ever myself, Chris Gronkowski. If you recognize that name, he is one of five brothers the Gronk brothers, and he played in the NFL. You know, their, their whole team is a big team of professional athletes and big guys, and they are so fun and they do a bunch of stuff together as brothers. But I wanted to talk to Chris for a couple reasons. Well, first of all, one of the three teams that he started for in the NFL was the Denver Broncos, which is, I’m a huge Broncos fan and grew up in Denver, back in the Ricky Nael and Stevie winder, and like Steve Atwater, the eighties, like golden years for the Denver Broncos. And so that’s cool. We have that connection. But what I love about Chris is that he has parlayed his NFL career into a personal brand.
RV (00:59):
And I think a lot of people don’t understand what that life looks like. And so I thought, Hey, let’s talk about it. The other thing that he did part of that was he launched a, a product that is called ice shaker. And this is a product that he launched in 2016. Within the first five months, he was able to generate about $80,000 in sales. He then got on shark tank pitched a deal on shark tank and ended up signing a deal with mark Cuban and Alex Rodriguez. And so he’s been growing his social media following. He’s got several hundred thousand on TikTok six figure following on Instagram, he’s building this business. And so I just thought, Hey, this is a cool story. We gotta hear about it. So anyways, Chris, welcome to the show.
CG (01:44):
Yeah, man, I like the intro. I appreciate it. Thanks for having me today.
RV (01:48):
Yeah, I, I, I do, man. I think it’s, I think it’s super cool. And so let’s, let’s start with your exit from the NFL. You know, at brand builders, we work with a, you know, F a growing number of athletes. I feel like because I feel like a growing number of them are waking up to this idea that, you know, Hey, you have to work after professional sports. Most of ’em and you have this sort of limited window where people still kind of know who you are and, and parlaying it into something. And I, I think you’ve done an awesome job of that. So talk to us about what, what is it like transitioning from your whole life of sports? You make it to the NFL, you play for several seasons and then it comes to an end.
CG (02:34):
Yeah. And it does. And that can happen at any time in your career as well. No matter how good of a player you are, you’re one injury or way for never playing again. And what most people don’t realize is none of the contracts are guaranteed. So when I entered the league, I was undrafted I signed a three year deal. It didn’t matter. It was that it was a three year deal. If I got hurt that first play, that was the last game I would’ve got paid for. There was nothing guaranteed after that. So a lot of these guys, they make it, or they get drafted, you know, they might play for a year. And after that, it’s done, you know, it’s over, but they’re planning in their thinking that they’re gonna play forever. So a lot of that, money’s already gone. Once you leave, you leave with whatever you made.
CG (03:13):
If you’re on the roster on a Wednesday, you get paid that week. If you’re not, you don’t get paid, you’re done. You’re going home. You know, you’re trying to find a new job. So that, transition’s hard. You, you only know one thing, you know, for the most part, you don’t have a job besides what you did, you know, growing up as, you know, newspapers and umpire and, you know, worked for my dad, stuff like that. But having that actual experience with a real job doesn’t come until you’re done playing. So really the only thing, you know, up until point is how to be a football player. So once you leave it, it’s, you know, you don’t have the skills yet. You’re older. Most people aren’t looking to hire older. And you know, it, it’s, it’s just this whole mentality that, you know, I was making all this money.
CG (03:52):
I was a football player. This is my identity. You know, it’s hard for me now to go start over at 50 grand a year or 40 or 30, or even if, if it’s 90, you know, which is great for someone coming outta college. But when you’re making that per game per week, it’s definitely a, an ego check and it’s hard to start over. So a lot of guys struggle with it. It becomes an issue for a lot of players and there’s a lot of programs in place now to help guys transition because it is a, it’s a tough process.
RV (04:19):
Yeah. well, that’s awesome. And I just, I think people aren’t in tune to that, cause we don’t hear that much about it and go, Hey, this is someone making tens of thousands of dollars a week to go in. Hey, you’re just like everyone else in the workforce trying to, trying to, trying to figure it out. So, so you leave the NFL. How long is it been for you come up with the physical product idea and then talk us through like, what’s that, what’s that timeline like?
CG (04:49):
Yeah. So I had a, I guess I would say unusual transition. After my third year, my wife was living with me. She had to get three jobs in three years, so she had to go, you know, interview every city I went to, I went to four different teams in four years. So by the third year was Denver. And when she got to Denver, she said, I’m not, I’m not going for another job interview. I’m gonna find a way to work from home. So she actually started an online business on Etsy. At that time it was hand painting wine glasses after Denver was my, the end of my career. So her end of my first contract, a three year contract. So I was looking for another team and I had some downtime. So started looking to her business, realized there was a great opportunity there.
CG (05:29):
And I started buying different commercial grade. Laser engravers started sourcing different products. And you know, pretty soon we had this all out business out of our house ended up then start signing with the chargers going there for about five months. I got hurt in can up and I got released. So I went full time into this business. And within the first year we were actually making more money in her business than I was playing in the NFL. So for me, super unusual transition that, you know, had no clue that’s what I was gonna do had no idea about the industry, but kind of just fell upon it because my wife, so I ended up doing that for five years after five years really came to the point where when people would ask me what I was doing for a living, it was kind of like, you know, I wouldn’t even tell ’em I never posted about it.
CG (06:12):
It wasn’t me. You know, I was this macho football player. I was always in sports and fitness and now I was custom and graving wedding gifts. So when people asked me, it was like, yeah, I’m kind of just doing my own thing. Wasn’t super, you know I guess wasn’t super into it, but it was making me a lot of money. So I kept doing it. But after five years thought of the idea for the product ice shaker and realize that it was a great opportunity for me to get back into the sport sports and fitness that I love doing. So when I thought of the idea just started as a side hustle was selling it outta my house after work and you know, had the opportunity to get on shark tank. And that’s when it really exploded and became a full-time business for me.
RV (06:50):
So before shark tank, you know, like if you have an idea to make a physical product and you, in your case, you go, Hey, I wanna make this ice shaker for like sports drinks or just whatever, drinking around the office. What do you do? Like how do you, what’s the first thing in terms of creating the product? Like where do you go? Cause I guess you go, I gotta get plastic from somewhere. Or somehow I gotta like have the little ball thing that’s in there, like a lot of ’em do. And, and do you just like start Googling like manufacturer plastic cup and like, is that pretty much how it starts?
CG (07:25):
So I, I didn’t know what to do at that time. You know, this was, you know, this was six years ago as well, so it’s easier now or there’s, there’s more resources now to do it, but back then I was lucky because we were already sourcing products with my wife’s business, we already had connections. We already had manufacturers. We asked them for help and they helped us find another manufacturer. So that’s how we did it. Now what I would recommend doing is going and getting a sourcing agent, you know, just find someone that does it for a living, you know, ask them for the help. It’s gonna be expensive though. You know, that’s a huge barrier to entry and you also have to know what you want. You know, you have to go get some, want to make you a CAD drawing, a 3d drawing so that, you know, you could present it to a, a manufacturer and say, Hey, this is what I’m looking for.
CG (08:07):
On top of that, you gotta research and you gotta know what you’re getting into. Like you said, the little ball that little ball is patented. So we couldn’t put a little ball inside of our cup. So then you try to figure out other ways to do it. And it was one of the hardest problems for us to solve and became one of our biggest assets, because we now have a patented twist and agitator that breaks up the protein powders, but it also ended up being a way to strain out ice. And it has all these other different benefits. And we’re now launching a, a twist and fruit infuser now as well for it. So it ended up being this huge problem for us, you know, how do we mix up protein without a ball? And then we realized this ball is really annoying, especially inside of a metal cup and it’s patented, so we can’t do it anyways. So let’s find another way to do it. And, and we did. So yeah, that initial process is the hardest part. You know, you could think of a great idea, but actually putting it into play is where everyone gets stuck.
RV (08:56):
So how much money are you invested in before you sell one?
RV (09:04):
Yeah, a Lot, right?
CG (09:05):
Yeah, for sure. So you know, at this time I wanted to be a comfortable level for me, so I wasn’t, you know, all in, I wasn’t getting loans. I had a, you know, decent chunk from the NFL, but my wife’s business was doing really well too. So you know, for me at that time, we invested about 50,000 into it. Okay. That was for, you know, the mold fees to get the first run of product going and then, you know, a website and that was pretty much it. And then I was also set up on Amazon, which, you know, was like 30 bucks a month. So that was the start. So it really to start, it was about $50,000.
RV (09:36):
Okay. So you, you get someone to draw it up on CA you have the idea, you draw it up in a CAD and then you make, you get a mold made so that you have something you can hold up and say, Hey, this is what it is. And then you have a website to start selling it.
CG (09:51):
Yep. And now they do 3d printing as well. So that process of actually getting up a prototype in your hands is a lot easier and a lot cheaper than it used to be. Cuz they could actually 3d print it where before that wasn’t happening. So 3d printing has come a long way and that’s also helped a lot to get a product made.
RV (10:08):
Yeah. I hear that. I hear your kids in the background. You got, you got three, three kids. I, I mean, so my wife and I, you know, we exited our first business. We built it for 12 years. We exited it in 2018 and then we, we basically started having kids right then. So this new business we’ve been building while having kids, that’s a, that’s a whole rodeo in and of itself like doing, doing that at the same time, you got three kids and one on the way,
CG (10:34):
Three kids, one on the way. And I tell people this all the time though, it was probably one of the best things that happened for business because I was so competitive. I was trying to do everything myself. When I started the business and it came to the point where, you know, I would work a hundred hour weeks easily. It didn’t bother me. I’d work every day. Cuz that’s, that’s kind of how I was born and raised. That’s kind of how football was, you know, work hard, put your time in, but with business at the end of the day, if you want to, you wanna scale, you have to build a team and you have to, you have to put processes in place. You have to delegate responsibilities because no matter how good I was at it, I didn’t have enough time in the day to do every single task.
CG (11:08):
So once I had kids, man, things slowed down and you have to figure out how to build a team at that point. So that’s really when it, that. And then COVID, you know, COVID really pulled me away from everything because I couldn’t physically be there. We had different shifts going on. And at that point it was, Hey, we need a solid team. We need solid processes. So if I can’t be here, this thing still runs. And so that’s, that was huge, man. Kids, it’s hard as it is as much you know, time and effort. It is you know, to raise kids. It’s it’s also, so one of the best things that ever happened to me because I’ve actually finally figured out how to run a business, the correct way without having to be there 24 7.
RV (11:47):
Yeah. So, and, and so, so now you’re 50,000 in, you have this mold, you got a website. How do you sell the first batch of people? Cause you all sold like $80,000 of this thing. Yeah. Like pretty, pretty quick. Is it just on social media talking about it or what?
CG (12:06):
So everyone thought it was social media or the fact that I had a following or my brother did and that really didn’t help at all. I thought it would, I figured, Hey, if I could get 1% of my following to buy, I’d be raking. That didn’t happen. My first post, I think I sold zero. I didn’t know how to build an audience at that time. I didn’t have a personal brand. I had a following just because I was an NFL player, but I never engaged, you know, I never hit people back. There was no reason for anyone to trust me or buy from me because I never did than anything to, to build their trust. So I realized that really quickly that a following doesn’t matter, unless, you know, you actually respond to them and give ’em value back as well. So I learned that later on and have continued to build on that. But at that time it was all about first making friends and family buy it. Every friend and every family member had to buy it, had to leave a review. And then for me, the biggest thing that I did early on, I got
RV (12:57):
Amazon, you were talking about. Yeah.
CG (12:59):
Yeah. So I, yeah, exactly on Amazon get, get as many reviews as possible. And then I, I borrowed their audience. You know, you borrow someone else’s platform audience, at least at the beginning. So with my wife’s business, it was Etsy before we built her website and built her email list for me, it was Amazon. You’ll go to Amazon, go to the biggest platform in the world. If it doesn’t sell there, you should probably stop trying because if you can’t sell on Amazon, you’re not gonna sell anywhere. So got on Amazon really had never been on Amazon before, but I just sat there and research and said, Hey, why am I not the first one on Amazon when I type in shaker bottle? And how do I get there? So I sat there, I studied every single other top ranking listing on there. And I looked at it and said, Hey, they got eight pictures.
CG (13:41):
These eight pictures highlight these eight things. These are the keywords you’re using. This is how many times the keywords show up. I’m gonna do exactly what they do. And let me see how high I can get. So within the first couple months, I added up getting to the three spot for shaker bottle, which was the highest row living keyword that I could rank for. And at that time I started selling about 25 to 30 a day, which was, was pretty good for, you know, just paying for zero ads and being a new product as well. That had only been established for a couple months. So that was my first way to sell. The second way was just going to trade shows. I started doing a lot of just different body building shows and I would show up and just, if you walk by my booth, you were gonna hear every single thing possible about this product.
CG (14:22):
And I was gonna try to get as many people to stop and, and talk to ’em about it. And at that time, you know, there wasn’t a ton insulated cups yet. So I put one bottle a plastic shaker with ice in it and I put my bottle with ice in it and I’d hand it to people. And the second they had both in their hands it was game over cuz they, they would, every time they opened it, they would say, no, there’s no way there’s ice in here. And they would open it, there’d be ice in it. And it was boom. It was a, it was an automatic seller because they just couldn’t believe how well the bottle was insulated.
RV (14:49):
That’s like classic infomercial stuff, which makes it a great, is a great, is a great fit for shark tank. Okay. So how do you get, how do you get the call to go on shark tank? Like did you apply, was there a casting call? Did you have a friend? Like how’d that how’d this happen?
CG (15:07):
Yeah. So that process can be pretty tedious. I, I was lucky because 2012 I was with the Broncos. I got an email from my agent. He sent it out to every single guy on the roster and it just said, Hey, ABC shark tank is looking for any current or former NFL players. If you want to come pitch on the show. So they were looking for a way to build their audience, you know, bring some some new new fans into the show. And so they reached out to my agent and that time I didn’t even know how to use email. And I had nothing to present, but I loved the show. I watched it pretty much every time a new one came out. So I started and I said to my wife, I’m like one day, we’re gonna come back to this email.
CG (15:43):
I’m gonna hit her back with something. Cool. So fast forward, like five years later, I think it was four or five years later. I finally emailed it back and she didn’t work there anymore, but she quickly passed me on to the girl that did. And I said, Hey, I got this great idea. Would love to present it to you. At that point, like you don’t have to go to all the trade shows where like you pitch for the first time they just said, Hey, send a video submission over. And if we like it, you know, we’ll get back to you. So I knew at that point, you know, I had a decent chance as long as I had something to present of value. And I did have value at that time I had about, I had about $35,000 in sales. I had a product, you know, we were selling now.
CG (16:24):
I, I knew my brother was crushing it at that time as well. So that would help as well. So with all that, and then this one shot, I just made it super entertaining. I’m like, Hey, let’s make this video ridiculous because I know it’s an entertaining show. They’re looking for entertainment. So I’m, I’m sitting there, you know, ripping my shirt off in the gym, you know, showing my touchdown, passes, all that and submitted it to them. And a couple days later they hit me back and said, you know, we’d love to move on to the next steps with you.
RV (16:49):
Wow. That’s crazy. So then, so then you go on this show. So, so what happens? So basically they’re like, okay, so you go through a couple rounds of screening or whatever. So you send a video, they say, we like the video. We like the idea. You talk to some people on the phone, I guess. And then what you, you, you, at some point you go, come on the show and you’re gonna like enter into the shark tank and we’re gonna film this.
CG (17:11):
Yeah. So it it’s actually about like, like six months of diligence that they do. And they check on everything. They it was, it was crazy. I had, I had one thing from the state of Indiana and paid my taxes or e-filed it, for some reason they never got the e-file. So they, they put something on my record. So I had to get all that cleared. I had to call like, everything has to be perfect for you to get on the show. So they’re gonna check everything and then, you know, they wanna make sure you’re prepared too. So, you know, they don’t want you showing up and just putting on trash. Like they want it to be a good show. So they make sure that, you know, you’re ready, you know, your product and you know, you’ve watched different episodes. You kind of know the, so they get you prepared for sure.
CG (17:50):
So you get there. What’s crazy is for most people you don’t even know if you’re actually gonna record when you get there. So there’s a chance that you still don’t record, even if you make it to the hotel, because if they get enough good submissions, they’ll just cut the last couple people out. So the first thing I saw when I got, there was a guy pacing back and forth at the hotel. And second I walk up, he’s like, Hey man, you here to pitch, you know what, you know, what’s your company name, all this stuff. I’m like, who, who is this guy? And they’re like, oh, he was here last year, but they didn’t, they didn’t film him. So he is freaking out about it, like going, going crazy about it. So I’m like, man. So I, I made this to the hotel, but I didn’t, you know, didn’t really know 100% sure if I’d even recall. And then when you do record, you know, there’s another chance that they don’t even air it. So a lot of times they do, they record it. And you know, if they don’t like the episode or they don’t think it’s entertaining enough or you don’t get a deal or whatever it is, they’ll cut it. And you’ll never air. So
RV (18:45):
Definitely. How long is the filming? Like how long is the, how long are you actually in there pitching your deal?
CG (18:49):
So I was in there for probably close to an hour and then they’re gonna cut it down to eight minutes. But at the end of the day, like they’re, it’s, it’s real, like it’s, it’s no joke on the questions they’re asking you. They’re not in there. Kind of just throwing you softball questions, they’re drilling you on everything. And they just don’t show that stuff. So, you know, they knew what I did growing up. They knew my first job, they knew what I did in high school. They knew what I did right after college. And you know, they, they hit me on all that stuff. They want to know what my parents did everything. So really at the end of the day, they knew everything about me, but then they just show the entertaining stuff. You know, the actual, the actual offers us playing flip cup that, you know, the initial pitch, the chess bumps, you know, stuff like that. But really at the end of the day, you know, they’re, they’re drilling down on you, you know, it’s the real deal it’s of money. And when you think about it, all the diligence and everything they have to do afterwards, especially mark, he’s been doing it for 10 years. He’s not just gonna pick up some scrub company cuz it it’s more work than anything for him. So, you know, he’s, he’s, he’s really vetting companies out and making sure he is getting something that’s worth his time.
RV (19:48):
And so after that happens, like, so then, so then you record and while you’re so you record and nothing happens cuz no one has seen it. And then at some point it comes out several weeks or months later. And then is there an instant like boom,
CG (20:08):
Boom, boom, Shaka Locka, really? For sure. Yeah. Yeah. It’s a, it’s huge. I mean, when you’re a new company, especially, you know, that that influx of sales is, is massive. You know, you get the money from the shark. You know, that takes, that takes a couple months of diligence, but they, you know, they then wire that money over. But then that boom, I is huge and all that money is also, you know, you’re not spending mark dollars on it. So it’s top margin. So there’s, there’s a lot of profit there and it, it spikes massive and it doesn’t just spike massive for the day of, you know, now because everyone records everything and then you get articles written about you as well. You really get like this month long tale of, of really good sales. So the first couple weeks is great. The first week is huge. Then the next I’d say the next three weeks is good, but for us it was October. So we went right into November, which was holiday season, black Friday, all that into December. And then January for us is new year’s resolution. So we had this massive wave that then it in February and when February hit, it was like, yo, what the hell do we do now? Like I, you know, I gotta figure out how to run a business now because all that extra traffic and, and sales that came was gone.
RV (21:18):
Hmm that’s wild. So it’s really like the minute the show airs, you start, it just starts popping. Yeah.
CG (21:24):
So we sold out on Amazon in in 30 minutes on Amazon. So the strategy at that time was to try to build our audience. You know, I, I initially used Amazon to, to start the business. But at the end of the day, you don’t know who you’re selling to. You’re not getting any information. You’re not building your own customer base. You’re not getting emails, you’re not getting SMS. So, you know, it’s cool to start and prove yourself there. But if you don’t get off someone else’s platform, they own, you, you know, for the rest of your, your life really is what it comes down to. And if they don’t like your product or they wanna knock your product off, or if someone wants to knock you off, Amazon’s not gonna protect you. You know, they, they don’t care about IP cases. You have to take that outside of Amazon.
CG (22:02):
So if you want to own your audience, you have to build your own list. So our game plan was, you know, get our old stuff on Amazon. So we put all of our old stock. I came out with a new product right before we aired, sold out everything on Amazon within 30 minutes. And it was a decent stock. I wish I put some of our new stuff on there because we probably would’ve quadrupled ourselves. But the strategy really was to build our own customer base and build our website up. So that’s what we stuck to.
RV (22:27):
And then how much do you see, like how often do you see mark Cuban or Alex Rodriguez or even talk to him?
CG (22:35):
Yeah. So Mark’s done a great job of building mark Cuban companies up. So he brought in a, a bunch of employees that their job is to help out the Charan companies. So I think he has 10 around 10 people in mark Cuban companies. Their job is to help out around 80. I think he has about 80 shark tank companies and other investments as well. So I have an advisor signed to me his name’s John and I talk to him almost every week,
RV (22:59):
Really
CG (23:01):
That, so I can reach out really for anything what’s cool about it is they’re there to help and they’re not there to take over the company. So, you know, Mark’s in it for the right reason. He’s not trying to, you know, make a ton of money off me or force me into anything. He’s there to help if I need help, he’s not gonna come in and take over the business. He’s not gonna force me to do anything if I want help. If I want suggestions, he’ll give them to me. If not, you know, and we’re doing well, he’s just gonna let me keep on running it, how I’m running it.
RV (23:28):
Wow. That is such a cool thing. And so how’s it been since? So when was that? When did, when does the show you, when did you, when did you go live on Amazon the first time? When did you do the show?
CG (23:41):
So the first product on Amazon was ready at the beginning of 2017. So January, 2017 was probably when we got our first product on Amazon aired on shark tank in October, 2017 went from that 80,000 range to, we did over 3 million in sales in the next 12 months.
RV (23:58):
Oh my gosh,
CG (23:59):
The company
RV (24:00):
That’s nuts. That is crazy.
CG (24:02):
Took off. And then we did get the update too. So we got the second recording of shark tank as well. In 2018, we aired again in in November. So that was a nice little boost. And now we get the reruns for both episodes. So they’re always rerunning on CNBC now. And every time we do at this point, we’ll get, we’ll get a couple thousand people that come to the website and then we usually get a decent chunk of people that go to Amazon as well.
RV (24:29):
Wow. just from a rerun
CG (24:31):
Reruns, man, I love reruns. They, they like it, I guess, I guess we’re rated one of the top 10 episodes in the shark tank history. So we seem to get a lot more reruns and they seem to be in prime time as well. So it’s it’s a nice little thing we got going on.
RV (24:47):
What are you doing outside of that?
CG (24:50):
So sales outside of that, how we’re getting getting people
RV (24:53):
Into the yeah. Now, right. So that’s kinda like you did Amazon got a shark tank, got that, kind of have this little annuity of customers coming in from that, but then you start and then, and then what did you start really layering on your personal brand? Or are you at like, where do you go from there?
CG (25:09):
We, we push hard into Facebook marketing. So we’re spending over a million a year on Facebook ads. At one point that’s significantly fallen off because of the iOS updates and we’re not seeing results there anymore. After that really built a sales team up as well. And then we, we, we built out a retail strategy too. So we’re national with vitamin shop GNC lifetime fitness. We’ll actually go into Walmart in February this year into 1900 locations. We’re in grocery. So we have a pretty decent retail presence. Now at this point we actually held off until really the goal was, was 2020, but then COVID hit and everything got crazy and really pushed off until, until now for retail strategy. But we’re in, we in a lot of gyms as well. We, we do a lot of work with CrossFit too, and we also do a lot in the promo space. So anyone that’s looking for customer gifts or employee gifts or event gifts, anything like that, we actually have the ability to turn custom bottles with in three to five business days because that’s my wife’s business. So I took all that. I integrated it into ice shaker as well. You could buy a one off bottle on our website. We’ll probably make it the same day and ship it out for you. Or you could buy thousands of bottles and we’ll ship those out within three to five business days.
RV (26:25):
Yeah, that’s really, really cool. And so your purse brand, then you still talk about, you know, like I saw one of your reels recently was talking about like the way that retirement and pension plans work for formal NFL athletes. So you’re, so you’re still kind of like, just out, trying to just be out there talking about, you know, whatever, obviously talking about the product and just but talk’s really blown up for you.
CG (26:49):
Yeah. So I, I mean, I went to you’ll kind of try to figure out social, I didn’t know what to do at first. So I just kind of just started posting and really what it came down to was I had to find a way to bring value to people. So to do that, you know, I started talking about NFL. I started answering questions that other people were asking. And when I did that, I kind of led down this, this, this track of just answering NFL questions from there, I then became, you know, someone that people trusted, they would ask questions to, I would answer ’em I’d engage. And from there I’d then weave in different ways to also answer questions about product. So people would ask, Hey, your NFL career is out over now. What do you do now? So that was a great opportunity to answer this question, bring shark tank into it.
CG (27:30):
And it came to the point where I actually, someone then asked, you know, what is it like to have the sharks on your team? I did a TikTok about that. It drove more traffic to my website than shark tank airing did. So I drove more, more views to my website from one TikTok post than the live airing of shark tank did for the first time. And I got on all my calls that week and the different companies that we work with said, man, what, what happened? And in this 3d day period, and I said, oh, I put out a TikTok about, about shark tank. And they were like, I’ve never seen anything like this in my life. So that video got about 6 million views. It drove a close to 50,000 clicks to our website over three days from one TikTok post. So it just shows you the, the actual power of it.
RV (28:17):
6 million views and 50,000 visit visitors.
CG (28:21):
You had about 50,000 visits to our website. I mean, it, it was hard to distinguish where they, because it won’t tell me directly from TikTok, but, you know, we had this massive influx over those three days. So my TikTok then over just a 30 day period, when I first started I would reach about 50 million people. So video views was at about 50 million. I now average on a weekly basis, I average about 5 million views on TikTok a week.
RV (28:46):
That’s amazing. And they’re just, they’re just all these little short clips, basically the same as an Instagram reel,
CG (28:51):
Same thing. I then also put it on Instagram reels now as well. And that, that, I mean, that’s what everyone’s pushing. So Instagram’s pushing it, TikTok, pushing it, you know, you can then do YouTube shorts. You can then do Pinterest. So I, I try to hit every platform that, you know, I will post that same video throughout all of them because, you know, there’s an audience there that wants to see it and they want you to post it on their platform. So those four have, have taken the same style videos for ’em done pretty well, but Instagram reels and TikTok by far are driving the most engagement most sales, most, most everything. And also for me, me personally, I make a lot of money off of brand deals as well because I’m, I’m an influencer now. And it’s hard to find guys that are influencers is what it comes down to. You know, it’s, there’s a lot of females I would say it’s probably 80% female. We actually got accepted into a, a Facebook affiliate program that Facebook was doing and it was 95% female. And I’m like, what’s going on with that? So I think I get a lot of brand deals because I I’m a, one of the few males that they would consider an influencer. That’s growing a profile.
RV (29:58):
When did you start going all in ONT to
CG (30:02):
So it was man, I got challenged. I have a podcast and I got challenged on the podcast by a kid who was a college dropout and a TikTok expert. And he was like, man, I got 600,000 followers. You got 10,000 and you got all these cool stories to tell why don’t you go on there and tell ’em. So I did. And, and that’s that first 30 days I through 350,000 followers by telling, you know, NFL style, unique stories, shark tank behind the scenes, stuff like that. But I started that, I would say midway through 2020.
RV (30:32):
Wow. that is cool, man. And, and you just post how often you posting.
CG (30:38):
So I was committed and the challenge was the post. Once it day, you know, post once a day. Really for me, I got it down to using about 10 minutes a day. That was it. You know, go through when I had extra time, I’d sit on the couch and I’d pull a bunch of questions, I’d save them and then I’d answer ’em and, and what’s cool about TikTok and now reels has copied it is when you answer a question from a previous, previous post, it links ’em. So you’re driving juice to both of them by answering a previous post question. So I
RV (31:08):
Saw that a comment, someone’s asking you a question in a comment. Do you have to use like a question feature on the first one?
CG (31:15):
So no they’ll comment. And then you reply back to the comment and it will link the two posts for you. So it kind of gives juice to both of ’em and then it just becomes like a rabbit hole for people to follow.
RV (31:24):
Oh, this is like a, a video response to a comment video
CG (31:28):
Response. Yep, exactly. And what I noticed as well is that you then give people you know, the ability to ask a question and, you know, you have a, they have a chance for you to actually answer it. And because of that, people are gonna continue to ask questions, ask questions, because you’re actually engaging and you’re actually answering the questions.
RV (31:47):
Interesting. So it’s just a normal, it starts as a normal comment. You just post a I GTV or a reel or whatever. Someone puts a comment and then you just push some button that’s or like a reply to their comment, real
CG (31:58):
Reply. Yep. Just, just a video reply. And Reel’s just started doing the same thing because it it’s a powerful tool. It it’s super powerful. And it, it helps the creator a lot. And then the last thing that I did, and I did it a lot when I first started and I stopped and I started again is just actually doing a CTA. So call to action, ask people to follow. You, ask people to ask a question and the difference is insane. But what it also does is your watch time. The biggest thing on, on all the platforms is watch time. You know, how long is someone actually sitting on your video and watching it? So if you can get that time to go up, they’re gonna keep pushing, pushing, pushing, it’s gonna go viral. So by asking them to ask a question while they’re asking and typing out the question, the video’s still playing, you know, and when you ask ’em to follow you, they actually do as well. And especially after you show up a couple times, people will be like, Hey, I’ve seen your videos three times. And I like, ’em you always ask for the follow, I just hooked you up. So I saw immediately by asking for a follow and asking for a question that my, my all audience would start growing. I would grow 1% a day, you know, sometimes 3% in one day, you know, thousands of followers every single day, just by asking people to actually follow or ask a question at
RV (33:09):
The end. So basically you do a video and then you do that at the end. Nope,
CG (33:12):
No, I do it before I answer the question. So they have to listen to it and then just also gives me more watch time. So I’ll say, Hey, you know you know, Hey, RO so thanks so much for the question today, before I answer this question, don’t forget to ask your questions down below. Don’t forget to follow me here. So that, that just adds to watch time, because I realize if I did it at the end, people would ex out it, it would actually hurt me because then it would cut my watch time. You know, the average watch time down because they would X out the say, second, I started asking for the, for the question or for the follow. So I would, then I then boosted it up to the first thing that I said, they have to sit through it to get the answer as they’re sitting through it, it’s adding watch time. And then they’re also asking questions and then I answer it and they have to wait till the end for the answer. So and
RV (33:56):
Then after you answer, after you answer the question, do you say, if you want a question answer, leave it, leave it down below in the comments or something like, how do you tee up the next one?
CG (34:06):
No. so I, I asked them it before that, but then it loops, so once I finish asking it, it will loop start
RV (34:13):
Over.
CG (34:14):
Yeah. So it’ll do back. So strategy, a good strategy on reels and TikTok as well is to make it seem like your video never ended. So once you’re done talking, it clips it, or the ending looks like the beginning. So people don’t realize they’re watching it twice and then you get more than a full watch out of it. And your watch time goes way up. So just another, a lot of strategy, but the whole strategy is shares. And watch time, you know, if you watch times, you know, more than what your video length is, they’re gonna keep pushing, pushing, pushing, and you’re gonna go bar,
RV (34:42):
Wow, Chris, this has been awesome, dude. I, I, I just, I love it. I, I think it’s so cool. And I think you know, there is an opportunity here for anybody who is an athlete or, you know, we have, we have we’ve got clients who were, you know, formally movie stars or TV stars. You know, there’s like this window of opportunity that if you play your cards right, it parlays, like you’ve parlayed it into just a really great following in a business that will last you the rest of your career and you keep building. And this has been awesome. Thank you so much for sharing with us. Like just kind of the transparency of your story, where do you want people to go to, to follow you and connect with all the stuff that you’re doing?
CG (35:26):
Yeah, for sure. So I’m, I’m, I’m pretty much every platform. So besides Facebook, I haven’t mastered Facebook yet, but I’ll work on that. Follow me, Chris, Kowski Instagram TikTok, definitely the, the most engaged on those two check out the website. I sugar.com and I guess last but not least, we got the, the channel, the YouTube channel with all the brothers at the Bronx. So we’d like to have fun on that channel, not that active during the season, but off season, we should be bringing some heat on the, on the channel as well.
RV (35:56):
I love that you guys are branding yourselves as the, as all five of you together. I think that’s got a lot of mileage and legs long term that’s, it’ll be cool to see how that shakes out
CG (36:06):
For sure. For sure. That’s, that’s the fun stuff.
RV (36:09):
Yeah. Well, man we appreciate you making some time and look forward to staying connected and just wish you the best.
CG (36:16):
I appreciate thanks so much for having me today.
Speaker 3 (36:20):
Hey, brand builder, Rory Vaden here. Thank you so much for taking the time to check out this interview as always, it’s our honor to provide it to you for free and wanted to let you know there’s no big sales pitch, anything coming at the end. However, if you are someone who is looking to build and monetize your personal brand, we would love to talk to you and get to know you a little bit and hear about some of your dreams and visions and share with you a little bit about what we’re up to to see if we might be a fit. So if you’re interested in a free strategy call with someone from our team, we would love to hear from you. You can do that at brand builders group brand builders, group.com/pod. We hope to talk to you soon.
RV (37:07):
Gro gro Chris, Grotowski one of the five Gronk brothers. What a cool conversation. This is another conversation that, you know, we do this podcast we’re learning right alongside of you. And this was one that was super tactical, like way, way more tactical in terms of what has changed my behavior immediately since doing this interview with Chris and it was pre it’s pretty awesome. And it’s cool to see what he’s doing. I think it’s, it’s inspiring to see how he transition and you know, his career in the NFL into a great personal brand. And I’ll tell you this. One of the things that I got clear on just in talking to him was going, oh, I got clear clarification on some of our core target audience, like some of our avatar at brand builder group brand builders group, because we work with athletes and stuff.
RV (38:01):
And it was like, oh yeah, well, you know, college athletes and stuff like that. And, and, and the whole, like N I name image like this, maybe we should be trying to reach out to college athletes and, you know, and get in with some pro athletes and stuff. And then it hit me like, oh, our market is not athletes. Our a, our market is former athletes. We’re one of the ways where we can be useful. And, and if, you know, a former professional athlete, you should introduce them to us because we can help them, like leverage the following that they built from sports or whatever to create, and, and, and turn it into a long lasting career as you know, a personal brand, an educator, encourager, entertainer, whatever. And it’s cool to see Chris do that and hear his story about how he, you know, went from being in the NFL and then became an entrepreneur.
RV (38:50):
And now he’s like building his personal brand really, really cool. And it, it makes sense to me cuz we have a lot of athletes in our, on our community and people who play in the NFL, et cetera. And it’s like, oh, they’re all former athletes, which makes sense. Cuz when you’re in the NFL, you should probably focus on not getting killed and win in a super bowl. Right. And like doing your thing. But after that it’s D story. So that was a, that was a, you know, an insight for me just to share with you that even as we do this, every one of these episodes, we’re learning stuff, new constantly that we are applying to our business. So that’s not one of my top three formal takeaways. I’ll I’ll go into those now. So the first one my first formal takeaway was where it was so simple.
RV (39:38):
He said do video replies to the questions that people leave in your comments. That’s so cool. Right? Like what a simple, easy way to create community, engage with your followers, have video content, a a add, add valuable content like that, you know, that, that, that people are interested in is yeah. Anytime somebody asks you a question as a DM or as a comment, answer the question as a video and say, you know, Hey, this question comes from so and so, or you don’t have to name ’em and just go, got this question the other day. Here’s the answer. I mean, this is the formula that we teach our brand builders. Like all of our paying members, as simple as we go every week, you you’re going to take at least one question and answer one question with one answer and then give a call to action.
RV (40:31):
Like that’s it QAC question, answer, call to action. It is a simple formula for how to effectively do social media marketing, content marketing YouTube podcasting. I mean, what are we doing on this show every week we’re bringing on people who do a component of personal branding really well or that we think do it well or that we wanna learn from, and then we’re highlighting it and showcasing it for you is to help you get questions answered for how you grow your business. And, and we use that as a way to like build trust and hopefully to get an opportunity to meet you and have a free phone call with you at some point, and then see if we can understand what your, your vision is and see if the process that we teach that so many of these people use to build their personal brand is one that we can help apply for you.
RV (41:16):
But the Genesis of that relat is answer a question, be useful. And one of the exercises that we have our members do is we have, ’em make a list of 52 questions that their audience has. And then you answer those one at a time and that becomes basically your content calendar for a year. Well, you know, your, your audience has way more than 50 questions about what you do and you, you definitely know more than 50 little tips or nuggets about what you do if you’re truly operating in your uniqueness. And so paying attention to the questions, people are asking you and the comments and the DMS and, and, and then making that into is just so smart. Right? So, so if you’re gonna answer a question, answer it as a video because then you’ll never have to answer that question again. Right? You have that video there and it creates content and it’s just so, so simple.
RV (42:08):
The second thing that Chris does, and I went and looked on his TikTok profile and I was like, this is crazy. He actually does this. And he said, it makes a huge difference. And I started doing it. And guess what? It makes a huge difference like is to do a call to action where you deliberately like articulate the words like in your video to say, follow me, click through. And you know, I’ve been saying, click click through to my profile and make sure you give me a follow. He’s, he’s mostly focused on TikTok. So he just points at the follow button on his TikTok videos. It doesn’t allow him to repurpose on Instagram, which is, you know, kind of a bummer, but whatever Instagram or TikTok where he’s focused and he points and he, you know, follow me here, which is really short.
RV (42:56):
And you know, you see his finger and then you go click right there and you follow him. And it’s like, of course, that works. People do what you tell them to do. I mean, this is crazy, but this is the whole point of calls to action in general is like tell people what to do if you go back and listen to the Tom episode. So Tom Rath wrote strength finders, which is the all time bestselling nonfiction book, like the bestselling nonfiction book of all time on Amazon, it sold 10 million copies. And I asked Tom in that interview, I said, Tom, how do you sell 10 million copies? And he said, simple, give people something to do, tell them what to do. And here it is again like that, that same dynamic, that same principle coming up where he’s just saying, you know, make sure to follow me on my profile.
RV (43:41):
And, and it works like what a, what a difference. So we’ve started doing this. I’ve started doing this with my videos and it totally works. Like, it, it, it, it’s not like suddenly we’ve got millions of followers overnight, but just noticing how the follower count is growing proportionate to when we were not doing this, it is a noticeable difference. And it’s so simple. And so you gotta be thinking of these increasingly committal calls to action in general. Right. You know, if you liked, if you agree with what I had to said, make sure you like this, or share this with a friend or leave a comment down below or, or, you know, tell me your thoughts or click through and follow, or, you know, click the link in my bio and join my, you know, download my free lead magnet. These are calls to actions where you’re literally verbatim telling somebody what to do.
RV (44:33):
People need to be told what to do, why cuz their brain doesn’t have much space or time to figure it out themselves. So you make it easy for people when you tell them exactly what to do, help them take the next step by making the step painfully obviously excruciatingly clear and then tell them what to do. So they don’t have to think about it. They can just do it. And now they’re on your email list. Now they’re following you. Now they’re sharing your content. Now they’re commenting below. They’re subscribed to your YouTube channel. They’re they’re rating and reviewing your podcast, like tell them what to do so simple. And I’ve just never done that. Yeah. I’ve always felt kind of weird about it. Just like, Hey follow me. But you know, there’s I still feel a little bit weird, like I’m pandering. But it makes a difference and you go look, if those people are gonna follow me and now I have a chance to change their life, cuz now they’re gonna see my content again.
RV (45:27):
And again, that’s a worthwhile thing, right? So I can, I can feel stupid silly if it’s for the sake of going, I’m gonna get another opportunity or several opportunities to impact somebody’s life versus, you know, I get to feel cool. And then this is the one time they’re gonna see a video of mine and then I’m never gonna see ’em again. So I can live with that. I can live with that. I get it outta my comfort zone there a little bit. And that’s one thing that I’m, I’m working on the third takeaway from Chris, which you hear this, right? This isn’t totally new. I mean, it’s not new information, but is if you go live specifically on TikTok, it’s huge right now because TikTok pushes you out to everyone that is huge, right? Like that is very different. If you go live on Instagram, it’s more like it’s pushing you out to your followers, which you may not have a bunch, but TikTok is in the, still the season of growth, right?
RV (46:28):
So there’s so much traction to still be made there. And going live is the way to do it. Now. One of the things that I discovered unfortunately, is that you have to have a thousand followers to have the go live function on TikTok even available to you. And so I was like, shoot we’ve been ignoring TikTok for the most part. And so now we’re kind of like trying to pick up our game a little bit and, and get into it because I feel like we’re late to the game once again on social. And I think if we can get there while this is still happening, or if you have a thousand followers going live on TikTok, you should do it, right. Like you’re at, there’s this harvest season that, that we’re in right now where you’re getting a disproportionate amount of a, of a tension and impact and reach.
RV (47:19):
And you gotta kind of play those seasons cuz you don’t know when they’re gonna come up. And TikTok is in one right now. If that matters to you now we’ve got other friends that go, I don’t trust TikTok. I don’t like it. I don’t, I don’t, I don’t believe in it. You know, it’s owned by the Chinese. Some people have issues with that or whatever. Like you gotta make your decision, but like if you’re into reaching people, this is your chance. Like this window is, this is happening on, on TikTok and, and it’s huge. And I’m learning a ton from TikTok. Like there’s a bunch of people that I’m following that I’m, I’m learning stuff from. And so pretty incredible. So, you know, you’ve got going live. And then the other thing is using the discovery tool on TikTok. We talked about this with Tory Gordon a few weeks ago, she’s got a huge TikTok following.
RV (48:11):
But just going to look at the discovery page and it tells you which hashtags are trending. Like it just tells you right there. This is the content that people wanna see right now. And this is the content that we’re pushing out. And so paying attention to writing the wave, right? Like that’s like here comes the wave and it’s telling you, this is the wave right now. And if you wanna hop on you just like create content that fits inside that wave and you catch, catch the wave. So this is that window, right? This is that this is that window. And you see the opposite happening on Instagram. It’s like every, every few weeks the reach just goes down and down and down and Facebook like organic reach, just like dead. I mean almost virtually dead like zero. I’m shocked at how little, our content, you know, even videos that are awesome and it’s like they get 20 views.
RV (49:06):
We haven’t put a ton of time into Facebook either, but this is why is this? Like, it doesn’t work very well anymore. Organically. So, or at least we’re not, we’re not putting in the work. It takes to really make it work. There are plenty of people making it work. You know, if you go back and listen to the episode with Hillary billings and Marshall, Marshall CS about you know, they’re getting hundreds of millions of views, like there’s a way to do it. And we talk about it in that episode. But right now this is the, the season is TikTok. It’s the one that’s here, it’s right in front of us. And we are we’re, we are late to the game. And you know, still in some ways, not, I mean in a lot of ways, not in, on it, not all in on it, but we’re, you know, we’re taking steps direction and I would like to experiment with going live on TikTok.
RV (49:55):
So we’ll see how that happens. But there you have it practical tips from, you know, a guy who, I mean, Chris, Chris is, you know, Gronkowski is a really well known. I mean, obviously his, his brother is one of the, the, the greatest tight ends of all time. And Chris had a very solid NFL career, which, I mean, anyone who plays in the NFL is amazing in my opinion. But it’s, it’s not like Chris had millions and millions of followers. He doesn’t have millions of followers now, but you know, he had a, he had something that he achieved. He was the top of his industry. He was in the NFL, but then it was over and it was like, what are you gonna do with it? Right. And so you might be at the top of your industry, but you’re transitioning it and going, how am I gonna use this to impact lives and to build an audience and to become well known?
RV (50:41):
Not for the sake of me being well known, but for the sake of making a difference in the world. And I love at Chris has done that and he’s turned it into a great business and great relationships and great partnerships and he’s adding value and he’s, he’s, you know, cool. And you can do the same thing. People wanna know you and you have an opportunity to help them and just figure out how can I answer their questions, give ’em clear calls to action and, you know, pay attention to some of the natural ways to grow your reach and do it consistently. And you know, that’s how it happens. So it’s simple, it’s simple, it’s doable, it’s all doable, right? Building your personal brand, building your influence, building your reach, making an impact, making a difference, becoming more well known, all doable. So many of those things are learning right here every single week. So keep coming back we love having ya. We’re learning right alongside you. And and then also hopefully modeling and showing you the way in some ways we’ll catch you next time on the influential personal brand podcast.

Ep 253: How To Build and Scale Your Speaking Business with Molly Fletcher

AJV (00:07):
Hey everybody welcome to a new episode on the influential personal brand. This is AJ Vaden here. I’m the CEO of brand builders group. One of the co-founders and one of the co hosts of this show along with my sidekick partner husband, Rory Vaden, who is not here today. But y’all, I am so excited today because not only do I get to share this awesome individual Molly Fletcher with you guys? But y’all like one of the, I was literally just talking to her before the show started. So if you wanna go read all of her amazing accolades and accomplishments, and there’s a lot, I would encourage you to go read the show notes, but I’ll tell you one of the coolest things about this is when you find people. And in my case, another woman who is equally excited about your success as they are their own success.
AJV (00:59):
It’s one of the biggest gifts in the world. And, and I had a chance to debrief with Molly before we hit record. And I think one of the things that I love so much and why I’m so excited to introduce her to all of you guys listening, is that she’s one of those people who gets genuinely just excited about seeing other people thrive and succeed as she does herself. And it’s one of those things where it’s like, it just makes you wanna be around her more. And I just love her. I think she’s so awesome. She’s a total badass and in so many different respects personally and professionally, and I’ll tell you one thing one thing on the professional side that I think you should know about Molly before we get in is I was at a a joint group meeting in Nashville, Tennessee, that Molly was at, and some had said you’re like the Jerry McGuire of the sports industry, cuz Molly has an extreme past as a very accomplished sports agent. And I started thinking this morning, I was like, she’s not like Jerry McGuire. Jerry McGuire is like Molly Fletcher, what are you talking about? There is no other Molly Fletcher there’s no comparison here. It’s like you’re Molly F and Fletcher, no, Jerry McGuire up in the mix around here. But so many amazing things that we’re gonna talk about today. And so I’m gonna kick off. I’m just gonna welcome you to the show, Molly, thank you so much for giving me some of your time this morning.
MF (02:21):
Hey, it’s an absolute honor. I love you and Rory and the whole BBG family. So I’m, I’m honored to be with you. I really am. Thanks.
AJV (02:27):
And this is gonna be such a great conversation. And one of the reasons why is, because I know that so many of you out there are wondering how do I go from my full-time profession, whatever it is that you’re doing right now, and how do I actually make a transition into a full time personal brand? And so Molly give people just a little bit of background on what your professional journey has looked like from the beginning to where you are now.
MF (02:57):
Sure. Wow. Well, you know, I think I wish I could say it was scripted out and it was perfectly planned, but the truth is it really wasn’t. I, you know, I was a sports agent, as you mentioned for over 15 years and I loved every minute of it and had incredible athletes, 300 athletes, a team of agents, et cetera, helping us serve, serve them. But, but what would happen, AJ? This is interesting is I would have all these young people reach out to me who wanted to be sports agents because people sort of think, oh my gosh, that’d be such a great job. And so I’d have all these young people meet with me and I would meet with these kids because I believe you need to love what you do every day. And so I would be meeting with these young kids and then simultaneously, like I might go to an event and I’d meet a, a 30 year old who said, oh, you know, I always wanted to be a sports agent, but you know, it was just kind of really hard to get into.
MF (03:47):
And it’s super competitive. And, and so now I’m doing this, but I don’t really love it. And now they’re in this kind of job that they don’t love and they’re sort of boxed in. And I thought, well, that’s a bummer cuz you work a lot and your life and you should love it. So I would meet with these young kids and my boss would walk by my office. He would say, oh, who’s that? Is that a short stop for Georgia tech? Is that a golfer for Georgia? And I was like, oh no, it’s this really nice young kid outta Georgia tech. Who’s trying to get into the sports agent business. And, and by about the third or fourth meeting like that, I mean, he’s a pretty driven guy. He looks at me, he goes, look, I am not paying you to a mentor. All these kids out of Georgia and Georgia tech.
MF (04:24):
And I said, okay, so and so simultaneously, right? I’m recruiting lots and lots of athletes, which to me is not too dissimilar to getting in front of tough people that you potentially maybe wanna work for one day. So I started to see all these things aligning at. I thought, you know, I can’t meet with all these people, but I wanna help ’em cuz it breaks my heart. When I meet these 30 year olds that hate their jobs. So I thought I’m gonna write a book about it cuz I gotta help ’em and I’m just gonna write a book, staple it together and give it away if I have to. So I would go when I was pregnant with our first to this coffee shop every day and I’d write and write and write. And so it took me about a year and a half to finally have this book ready to go. And, and I thought, well, let me see if I can publish it. Like, let me just see if I can find a publisher and I could have wallpapered my apartment with rejection letters from publishers. Cause we, we both know that’s a quirky space. Finally, I get somebody that kind of bites. I fly to Indy pitch this whole boardroom of people on this book and they bite and they published the book, which was my first book. So then come university started saying, Hey, will you come and talk,
AJV (05:29):
Pause right there though. You wrote the entire book while you were still like full-time working.
MF (05:35):
Yes, great point. Right.
AJV (05:37):
But I think that’s a really important distinction. It’s not why you jumped ship and said, I’m out. It’s not like this was what I was doing when I had extra time, extra hours, extra minutes.
MF (05:47):
That’s right. That’s right. That’s right, AJ. I would do it at night. I would do it on the weekends. And so that book got fully published and, and I had thankfully the support of my boss to do that book, which was wonderful, cuz I was very transparent with him that I wanted to help these kids. It wasn’t gonna impact my day job and whatever. So then I was speaking to all these schools for free, for fun. Just
AJV (06:10):
So were they finding you or you finding them?
MF (06:13):
They were finding me because of the book it was sort of out there. And so professors started reaching out saying, Hey, would you come and talk to 30 kids or 50 kids or, and I did. And so then
AJV (06:27):
For free
MF (06:28):
For free,
AJV (06:29):
I think that’s important. Like,
MF (06:31):
Yeah, these are great. I’m glad you’re calling these things out.
AJV (06:33):
These are not like most of us who are in this world of speaking and authoring and it’s like, Y it didn’t start with money. Right. It’s like we were paying, it’s like, please I’ll pay you. Can I please come? Exactly, exactly. Right. and I think that’s a really important reminder for everyone. Or anyone who is all on this personal brand journey or who wants to be, it’s like it has to come from an deep rooted passion of, I have a message that I, I cannot contain it. It must come out of me. However I can do
MF (07:05):
It. That’s really well said, AJ. And, and I think, and you say this, I mean, you’re so good at, you know, it, it was something that broke my heart, was watching these people work 82,000 hours of other life or something like that, that it adds up to and hate it. And I thought that’s not right. And, and I grew up with a father who’s amazing, but he hated his job. And I thought, I don’t wanna hate my job. I wanna love it. Yeah. I wanna, as the, you know, I think it’s a Luke Bryan’s song, right? Like do what you love and call it work. And
AJV (07:37):
I love that. So,
MF (07:39):
So that book, so to your point, I would go to these schools and I would speak for free. But one of the things that I think’s important for your listeners is it was also, Hey, as I started to do more and more of it, I thought I gotta record these things. Like I gotta record these so that I can grab recordings of this. Cuz I like it. And if I can do this in other markets, maybe one could get paid. I don’t know. So then it was interesting, AJ. I, I was also, then I sort of, that came out. I was doing that still full blown as an agent. And then I started working with, you know, Billy Donovan and Thomas and Ernie Johnson and John Smoltz and all these athletes and coaches.
AJV (08:18):
I didn’t know any of those except for John else because I’m a brave fan. There you go. Yeah. That
MF (08:24):
One that’s right. Well that’s OK. And you don’t need to. And you know, and so I started to go, wow, the way ISO’s wired, isn’t too dissimilar to Ernie Johnson. And the way smolt is wired, isn’t too different from, you know, Laven. And so I started to, to kind of see the way that peak performers behave their mindset. And I thought, I think I got another book here that I really want the world to know the, the level of curiosity and discipline and belief and, and, and energy man and all these things that went into the best. So I, I reached out to a friend of mine and said, look, I, I think I wanna write this book. And, and then she helped me a bit connecting me with her son who was sort of a ghost writer. He helped me write it with his literary agent who then took me on, pitched it to publishers. And that book was birthed, which is called the business of being the best. Now that book was a little more focused toward business people.
AJV (09:28):
Interesting. Again, wanna pause really quick? You said two things that I think are really unique and important. So I have a, a random question for you.
MF (09:36):
Sure.
AJV (09:37):
How many people do you think actually have a book within them, but they don’t value their own insights enough to publish it
MF (09:48):
A hundred percent of people in the world. I mean a ton like a ton.
AJV (09:54):
I agree.
MF (09:55):
Yeah.
AJV (09:55):
Like to your point, I think the difference and what I love about you is like you saw something and you’re like, I have to put this together and share it to the world. Right. I think all of us have those insights and those intuitions and those things. We just, whether we don’t think other people would care or we’re not sure how to put it together. And you did, and you were still doing it full time working of going, oh, I see these commonalities. And I think there’s something here that would really help other people. And I think, I think it’s really important. So what was it about you that made you go, this is good enough that I think it would help other people like innately inside of you kind of gave you that, no, this is it. Like this is gonna help other people.
MF (10:46):
Well, I, I think I saw so clearly this connection between peak performers and I felt like, and, and I lived in a world where complacency has no room. I mean, chipper Jones woke up every day and, and, and could see the stats of the guy in AAA that wanted his job. Smoltz could see all the guys in AAA that wanted his job. And I thought, wow, this is a different mindset. This mindset of wanting to get better every single day. And, and I just felt like it was something in my heart of hearts that could lay right on top of business, people’s mindset and belief system. And they could deploy it in a way that could help them too, have more drive up their game, all those things. And, and I think I grew up too with a belief that no is just feedback.
AJV (11:40):
Yeah,
MF (11:40):
No, isn’t no, it’s just,
AJV (11:43):
You gotta write that down.
MF (11:44):
It’s just a data.
AJV (11:45):
No, it’s just feedback. No, it’s just feedback. Ooh, that’s so good. I’m gonna highlight that. It’s gonna be tweetable moment of this show. No is just feedback. Right? Well, I think, and I think the reason I wanted to call that out is because so many of the people that we talk to and that we work with at our company brand builders group, it’s like, they, they know they’ve got something, but they don’t have enough conviction and their own ideas to push them out into the world. And it’s like, part of it is like, you’ve gotta have enough belief that no, it’s like, I know this can help and enough confidence of going, I don’t care if it helps one person it’s worth doing it. But then the second thing that you brought out is I found someone who had a son who was a ghost writer and he would say, it’s about people. It’s about relationships. It’s about connections. So talk to us for just one second.
MF (12:35):
Yeah. So you know, wonderful. You know, he helped me and his mother was really one of the first and, and what happened was we, we, we wrote that book and that book, you know, got, got out into the world. And, and then I think this is sort of part of the story and, and that relationship and how important it was. So when, when that book came out again, it was more focused on business people. I, I started getting asked to come and speak, you know, at, at businesses, right. At, at conventions at things. But I was still grinding it as an agent, like full time, 24 7 deal. So if it was really convenient and really, really easy, I could do it. So one day literally across the street from my office, there was this convention and they asked me to come and do one of the breakout sessions.
MF (13:21):
And I mean, AJ, it was pretty bootleg, right? Like it was literally, I can still see the room. I mean, it wasn’t very big. There was these black drapes, there was probably 20 people. It was one of those where they walked in, could see the list of different speakers and they, you know, enough people thought, well, this chick sounds interesting. I’m gonna go sit in there. So I sit, I give kind of a keynote around the book and the common threads I saw and you know, it was probably 30, 40 minutes. Well, at the end of that, this woman comes up to me, whose son was the ghost writer. So that’s where I’m going with this. And she came up to me and she’s really cool. And, and she said, you need to do this. And I said, what are you talking about? She goes like, you need to do this.
MF (14:01):
I said, do what she said, speak. And I said, well, girl, I’m running back to the office. I have a one 30 lunch, a three o’clock call. I’m going to game tomorrow. Like, what do you, I can’t do this. She said, no, no, no. I’m telling you, you gotta do this. I’m taking you to lunch. So we go to lunch and she said, okay, here’s what I want you to do. I want you, she goes, how much are you charging? And I said, nothing. She goes, you don’t charge anything for your, I go, no, she goes, you need to be charging. She said do you own your domain name on your website? Do you know your, I said, no. She said, go buy it, go buy Molly fletcher.com. And she said, do you have recordings of your keynotes? And I said, well, I got a couple.
MF (14:39):
Right? And she goes, every keynote you give from now on, I want you recorded. So she sat with me. I’ll never forget it. And basically said, here’s all the things I want you to have a website up in, in, in a less than 30 days, video bio, you know, all the things that, you know, anyone who’s listening can, you know, if you Google any speaker, you can go and you can kind of see the same things that they have on their websites. That whether it’s through a speaker bureau or a client is looking for. And, and she sort of told me what she thought I could charge and sure enough, the phone started. Right. And it, you know, which was a blessing. And so, you know, and then I started speaking and Marilyn hired me and all these different. And so it just sort of evolved, but I’ll pause there in case something’s coming up for you,
AJV (15:23):
You know, it’s interesting. Your journey is so different than mine because I’m pretty, pretty sure I had to like cold call a thousand people before I ever got paid to speak. I’m pretty sure, like if I went back and counted the amount of free workshops that I did in front of sales teams and sales organizations, it would be in, it would be close to a thousand, but I did four free, right. Begging it’s like, I’m, can I pleased and talk to your three? I will do this for you for great. I’m pretty sure. But it’s, you know, it’s interesting because every journey looks different and that’s the point And you wanna know, it’s like, how do you do it? And it’s like, every journey looks different. The point is you just have to start, you gotta start.
MF (16:09):
Right. I mean, it’s like, I don’t know if it’s a BG line or, but the more you speak, the more you speak,
AJV (16:14):
Always
MF (16:15):
Like the more you speak, the more you speak and, and, and, and, you know, I mean, just to, and, and we had a lot of those, I mean, I’ll never forget when she told me to get more video, my husband and I went to the Ritz Carlton here in Atlanta, and we snuck in, we found a ballroom and my husband’s wonderful. And we find this ballroom and it’s got this beautiful mahogany background. He’s got our camera. And I am like changing clothes four times in the ballroom. And he’s filming me and I’m talking to nobody, I’m talking to nobody and he’s filming me. And then I found, you know, somebody that kind of spa slice it up and turn it into a speaker reel and all that. So, you know, it’s a bootstrap deal out of the gates.
AJV (17:00):
It, and I love it cause that it’s, you gotta be scrappy. It’s like, there are only a few people. And one of the reasons I was so excited to have you on the show is you’re a little known fact is like, Molly’s one of like the highest paid speakers. Who’s not a celebrity who’s out there. Right? Like Molly is doing this full-time multi seven figure, like, like she is doing this and doing it extraordinarily well. And I think for a lot of us, as we think, oh, well you had this X, Y, Z. It’s like, no, like we, we were speaking in empty ballrooms with our husband’s speaking. Like I remember it’s like, for years, it’s like I was doing meetings and living rooms, backyards tax sales, doesn’t matter what it was. I was like, I’ll be there. I’ll be there. Right. So one day you have someone who sees you and they go, you could do this for a living. That’s how it works. And then you could speak, but it’s like, the more you speak, the more you speak, you just have to start. And so I’m curious at what point did you go, okay, this is like, my personal brand is now my full time career. Yeah. Like when was that?
MF (18:07):
Well, I certainly didn’t think of it candidly as a personal brand, obviously now more so, but I, what, you know, what happened truthfully was I love, I loved being an agent and I loved my players and I loved it all like immensely. And I’ll never forget. I landed in like Pittsburgh or New York or somewhere for a keynote. I think I landed in New York for a keynote and, and my players never went to voicemail. I mean, they never went to voicemail. So I get I land and I’ve got like three voicemails from three guys. Well, I, I start calling ’em back and I’m on the phone with one of my guys. And he goes, where are you? And I was like, cuz we’re incredibly close. And I go, oh, I just landed in New York. He’s like who you seeing? And that was the moment when I went uhoh I don’t feel authentic right now.
MF (18:56):
Like I do not feel authentic right now. And I said, you know what, actually, man, I’m given a keynote to a group of, you know, I think it was financial advisors. And he said, oh, wow. Huh. Really? And, and that was the moment when I went, I’ve make some decisions here and you know, it made AJ no sense. I mean, I think I had 17 keynotes on the books, you know, for not a lot of money. And I had a nice situation as an agent. And, but I remember coming home to my husband. I said, honey, I think this message is resonating with people. I think it’s helping people. I think I have an opportunity to have a whole lot more control of my schedule, but more importantly, make a bigger impact on the world than I am now. Like, and I, I was at a point in my career where, you know, I felt like I’d done a lot of incredible things.
MF (19:47):
I’d helped a lot of athletes, but I remember thinking, do I wanna go to my grave and say, I’ve negotiated a hundred million in contracts or do I wanna go to my grave and say I changed a hundred million lives. Mm. And what became clear to me was I, I wanted to change hearts and souls and, and, and, and not just checkbooks and, and bank accounts. That wasn’t what I was about. And that was, and thankfully I said, I’m gonna do this. I’m gonna jump. And, and you know, you talk about kind of relationships. And so one of the guys who was my trainer, when I was a student athlete at Michigan state, he became a speaker and is a speaker. And I reached out to him and I said, Hey, this is what’s going on. And, and he said, you know, you can use my booking agent.
MF (20:35):
She books me. I pay her a fee on every booking. But if you wanted to give her a fee, she could take in some of these incoming calls for you that you’re getting and she could navigate it. And of course, I believe it’s helpful to have somebody in the middle of those conversations. That’s what I did. And I saw the benefit. Yeah. And so I, I put, so this, this woman was fantastic and she would take, she knew how to navigate these. She, you know, and then we built the contract and the bio and all the stuff that happens, but she was able to take in these incoming calls, negotiate these fees and manage my speaking, ke tell it, got to a place where I needed a full-time person.
AJV (21:11):
So, so interesting. Because I think that right there, what you just said is, so, so wise of you need a middle person. Yeah. So, and that’s what you did. Like you did that so successful for all these athletes for 15 years. So like to sit here and, and go, oh yeah. It’s like, that is what you did. Right. Right. So I would love for you to share with everyone, like, what is the benefit of having someone book you on your behalf? Like, what’s the, you know, it’s like people can call, ’em an agent bureau, whatever. Right. But what’s, the benefit could be your spouse. It
MF (21:43):
Could be,
AJV (21:44):
But why, why?
MF (21:47):
Well, I, I, I mean, I think, you know, no different than I saw with my players. I mean, it, it becomes very hard for an athlete to sit in the room with a general manager and say, look, all the other second basemen are at X. Here’s my RBIS. Here’s my slugging percentage. Here’s my on base percentage here. And I should be at Y. And here’s why, because it can get, yeah. And I think when you are saying, well, for me to come and talk to your people, I’m worth X. Well, our budget is why, well, I mean, that conversation is a lot harder for you to do yourself now. It’s not impossible though, because we know that people have to do that in their careers for Ray and things like that. And that’s okay. And we need to, as human beings, I believe, know how to have those conversations. But I think when, when, when we’re trying to negotiate our fee and our time at the core, it, it is, it is, it is someone else that can brag about you that when you are doing it on your own behalf, it’s just odd. Like, oh yeah. Like every time I got a standing ovation, people love me. I mean, you can’t say that. Right. But you’re, but your booking can. Right. So I think, I think they can tell your story as your advocate
AJV (23:08):
Right.
MF (23:08):
Better than you.
AJV (23:10):
Oh, I think that’s the word. It’s, they’re your advocate. Yes. They’re your advocate. I remember there was a point in our business that I told Roy you are no longer allowed to talk about money with anyone
MF (23:25):
Ever,
AJV (23:25):
Like, you are not allowed to talk about your fees, stop it. Cause like two, that point it’s so much easier for him as the individual. Who’s getting booked to go. I mean, okay, I’ll make it work or sure. I’ll stay and I’ll do this. Sure. I’ll add on another one. Cause he felt guilty. It’s like, and is like having an advocate that middle person removes the emotion makes it so purely logical. And one of the best, best lessons we ever learned as somebody had said. And I remember getting this advice from someone at the national speakers association is just remember, they’re not paying you for an hour of your time. Yeah. They are paying you for the years of experience and expertise and original content. And data they’re paying you for a lifetime of information that you have condensed in two, one hour.
MF (24:18):
Yeah.
AJV (24:19):
And that, that changed the way that we negotiated from that point on.
MF (24:24):
Yeah. I J I remember you saying that at an event I was at that you were leading and I, and I was like, that is so well said because it’s so true. I mean, they are. And, and, and, you know, to your point, it’s easier for someone else to say, no, it’s easier for someone else to justify. I mean, the, you know, when I was an agent, I mean, that was, people ran around with business cards, you know? So all my athletes had stacks of my business cards and I can’t even count the number of times that a guy would call me or a gal would call me and say, Hey, I met John Smoltz at Walgreens. And he said, he would love to stop by the school, on my son’s birthday and wish him a happy birthday. And I’m thinking, okay, dude. And like small tea and I, or any of my guys.
MF (25:10):
I mean, I, you know, John can’t do that for everybody. He meets of course. And, but, you know, and I’d say, oh, okay. And I’d take the call and I would listen. And, and, and then I’d, you know, hang up and wait three days and call him and say, Hey, I’m really sorry, but John can’t do that. He’s pitchy that day or whatever the thing was. Yeah. But that, that helped John and all of my players so much. And we, you know, we need, I mean, I’m so blessed and grateful. We get 500 speaking requests a year and do 80. And so I need somebody in the middle of all that to filter through the right fits the stages where we think we can truly make an impact.
AJV (25:47):
How, oh, good. I think that’s such a deal of like, to that point, it’s like, it would be very easy to try to say yes. And then simultaneously just burn yourself into the ground now.
MF (25:57):
And I’ve made that mistake, AJ. I did.
AJV (25:59):
Yeah. As have we, and it’s not one you wanna make again. And so, okay. So, so let’s talk about two things here, one all these for requests, right? So how are you for the person who is maybe speaking already? And they’re like, how do I grow my speaking business? How do I scale it? Where are all of these requests coming from? So how have you AMAs such this amazing business where people are just calling you and then it’s you deciding which ones you’re gonna go to? How did happen?
MF (26:30):
You know, the, the truth is it’s, it’s really been referrals. I mean, it’s people in an audience who leave and go to a different company who I gave a keynote yesterday here in Atlanta. And a guy came up at the back of the room and goes, I need, you need to do this convention that we all go to in the technology space every single year, who do I contact on your team to, to get your stuff in front of them? So it’s, it’s been primarily referrals. We do work with bureaus lots of different bureaus. I’m not exclusive with any bureau and, you know, and, and that evolve by people who had heard maybe me keen, or they had moved to a different career or a different company. And then they went, they let’s say just automatically booked through bureaus. So they went to the bureau and said, Hey, we want this.
MF (27:16):
We’d like to explore having this woman, Molly come and speak. And the bureaus like who’s that I have no idea who she, and then they kind of figured that out. And then that was kind of how our bureau thing went. Was clients backing into an ask and then the bureau coming back to us and saying, we have a client that wants to book you, who do we, who do we work with? So, you know, I’m feel very blessed for that. I’m very grateful for that. It’s, it’s really been all, you know, all the word of mouth, but I would say simultaneously, you know, we have all the tools and things. We have all the, the things in place that allow somebody to get familiar with you. You know, one of the things that you and I know, and it’s wonderful for people to, to, to know is that, you know, nobody’s gonna book you on a main stage, big event, keynote without seeing you speak.
MF (28:05):
And, and not just, I would argue that the best of the best, the spliced up, you know, six minute video reel, that’s just you and all your best moments and the crowd standing and clapping, and you gotta make, get, give ’em a hot, good, solid piece of extended content of you on stage speaking, where they can go, okay, there’s a big clump of time and she’s okay, she’s good. Like we can do this. So that’s, to me really important to having, you know, I would tell every speaker, go get your YouTube channel, get it populated, get stuff on there, have your website with your video real, but have longer clips too. So people can see you for an extended period of time. Because the thing that, you know, I take real really seriously is there is an organization when you really boil it down, it’s an organization hiring a perfect stranger to stand up in front of the most important people in their world.
MF (29:04):
From a business perspective, either it’s their key clients or it’s their employees. Those are incredibly important people and they are hiring a perfect stranger. So you’ve gotta make sure you offset their already anxious feeling. Yeah. That’s so putting a stranger in front of the room. So you gotta make, ’em feel really safe with that decision. And, and so, you know, to me, those are the things that I think are important. Like I’m a big fan of getting into the head and the heart of the people that you serve and saying, you know, like one of the things I always say to people who on a, a pre-call before any keynote, I, I do a call with the client and, you know, I always say to ’em look, you’ve got thousands of things to worry about. The last one I want you to worry about is me.
MF (29:48):
All I want to happen is that you have a line of people after that, come up to you and say, dude, where did you find that chick? That was exactly what I needed to hear that. That’s all I want. You got AV people, you got music, you got customers, you got box lunches, you got dinners, you got awards, ceremonies, you got other speakers, you got panels. Don’t worry about me. I’ll be there early. I’ll crush it for you. People will say, thank you so much. And I wanna be super low maintenance and, and, and over deliver.
AJV (30:18):
Yeah. That’s so good. So I love that. It’s like, if you think about it in terms of reality, it’s like, you’re right. It’s like, you’re asking someone to pay you. Who’s a complete stranger and they have no real idea. What’s gonna come out of your mouth and then you want them to put you on stage in front of their most important people. And they’re sitting in the back of their going, please don’t mess this up. Please. Don’t mess this up please. Right. So how do you eliminate those fears? So I have a question. If you were gonna tell people, here are three things that you can do to be less of a stranger to your audiences, what would they be?
MF (30:52):
Well, number one, I, I would say video on your website and on your YouTube and not just short form, but long form. I mean, that takes a lot of angst out and lots and lots of video. The more, you know, early in your career, the more that you’re speaking get, ’em all videotaped, different outfits, different backgrounds, different stages, authentic, real stuff, and get that up there because that will give him a, a sense of she’s done this, he’s done this, and they’ve done it a lot in a lot of different circumstances. Okay. That would be one, you know, two testimonials. And you talk about this age. I mean, you talk about this a lot, and I think that’s a really big deal to particularly early to say, look here, here’s, you know, you have your list of printed testimonials on your site or wherever, but also, Hey, look, and I did this as an agent.
MF (31:37):
When I was recruiting a player, I’d slide my client list across the table and say to any young player, Hey, look, I can sit in this boardroom and tell you everything. I know that you wanna hear, but call John smoke, call anybody, call these guys or gals, ask them. Yeah, because what I’m telling you, we’re gonna do, we’re gonna do it, but feel free to call anybody. So testimonials to me are absolutely huge. And then the other thing I thinks really important is get on the phone with the people that are hiring you before you speak
MF (32:11):
And, and, and, and get in their head, get in their heart, ask questions, understand what those hearts and souls in that room are worried about. I, I know lots of speakers that say, oh, I do the same keynote every time I’m not changing it. I’m not doing a pre-call cuz it isn’t gonna change. And I’m thinking, number one, like I could personally not do that because I need to know what the people in the room are worried about. What are they excited about? What’s what’s on their hearts and minds. What did they hear before I went up? What are they gonna hear after I gotta get in their head and heart? So pre-calls are really powerful because AJ I’ve probably given, I don’t know, 700 to a thousand keynotes. And, and I mean like paid over the last, like when it, when I did it as a, now in my world and nobody’s ever canceled a pre-call like nobody, because they cannot wait to get, and they have seven, eight busy people on these calls. It’s, it’s a, it’s like, you are the seventh person on the line. And they have like all these people and, and they want you to know their world and it matters. So I would say that’s a really important step that I think people sometimes underestimate that really matters really matters.
AJV (33:29):
Ah, you know, and so much of every single thing that you’re saying comes back to two things that you’ve got kind of said throughout this conversation, which I think are really important for people to grasp onto is one, the more you speak, the more you speak, right? So if you really want to be a speaker or build your speaking business, make sure you’re speaking, that could be for free. Most of us started that way. Eventually you’ll get paid for it. Doesn’t matter if it’s five people in a room or 500 speaking is speaking. Right. And then the next thing it’s, it’s relationships trust, right? Yeah. Build relationships. The people who are inviting you in do a really good job. So they refer you to other people get testimonials that increases trust, you know, get to know these audiences. So they know that you really understand them, but it’s build relationships so that you can build trust.
MF (34:18):
Yep, yep. Right.
AJV (34:20):
Universal.
MF (34:20):
That is absolutely right. And I think for a non celebrity speaker, I mean, I’ve spoke at an event recently with magic Johnson and I was getting micd up with the AV guy and, and I, I said something about his magic doing in Q and a and he goes, oh, they wouldn’t give us access to him before the event. We, we, we, we have no access to him. They are micing him. We have, and you know what, he’s magic Johnson,
MF (34:44):
Molly Fletcher. Can’t do that. I’m like, Hey, I’ll be down there 30 minutes early. Right. What do you want? You know what I mean? So I think, you know, it, it is, it is such a rewarding space to, to be in. But I, but like you said, AJ, I mean, be patient be gentle on yourself. Right. Honor, the people that you’re getting in front of and, and make it, you know, feel like it’s your first and it’s the most important one for you over deliver. All those things are so important. And, and to your point, I mean, I spoke for free a lot and you did too. And you know, the keynote that I gave early in my journey is very different from the one I give now. And, you know, with the more you speak, the more you grow, the more you see what lands and what doesn’t, what people re resonate with and what doesn’t, what people come up to you after and go, boy, that story about whatever was really powerful that you start to see, what’s, what’s really clicking. And then you can blow, you know, add on to the, so if it serves you and them in, in so many ways, it’s, it’s so important.
AJV (35:50):
Ah, I love that. I have love this conversation. I know that we’re almost at a time, so I wanna just do two, two last quick for the person who is listening to this, this show and this interview, and they’re going, man, it’s like, I’m not into the speaking business yet, but I have this message on my heart. I feel called to like share, this is what I wanna do with my life. Where do I start? Right. if you were to go back and, you know, tell your, you know, however long ago it was of like, this is what I would’ve done differently to expedite my journey. This is what I would tell that person today. What, what would she say?
MF (36:30):
You know, get out there more and speak more truthfully, like you said to three exterminators, if you have to, to your dog, in your office, to your husband, to your partner, to your, just keep refining, refining, refining, and playing with it. Okay. And, you know, and, and, and figure out your unique style. You know, I mean, there are so many wonderful speakers in the world and everybody has their own style and, and they land in their own way. And so be true to who you are, you know, don’t try to, to be anybody that you’re not. But to me, those are important things for people to keep front and center, but I would just say like everything in life, right. I, I, I, you know, I didn’t get, I didn’t, you know, when I was playing tennis, I had to hit a lot of floor, right.
MF (37:20):
A lot of bag. So just, just keep doing it, keep getting the wraps in the more you get the wraps and the better you get. And then I would also say what I didn’t do enough of to, to, to boil your question out more deeply is watch yourself, watch your videos of yourself and look at your, look, watch your own videos of you speaking and, and critique the heck outta yourself. You right. Really beat yourself up. The other thing I wish I would’ve done earlier too, is, you know, I have a few people who, what, what happens after a keynote is, is even if you were horrible, people go, oh, that’s so great. Oh, thanks so much. That was awesome. I mean, and so you think you’re really good?
MF (38:00):
Sure. You have some people in the back, like I have on my team or my husband who go, Hey, you totally missed the point in that story. Or you walked too much or you didn’t, or this or that, or you had lipstick on your teeth or anything, but have those people in the room early so that you can really work out some of those kinks that are gonna give you great feedback. Because at the end of every game of like, you can tell if it really, really landed or if it didn’t, but nobody’s gonna walk by you when they’re leaving the room and not say anything. Most people say, oh, that was awesome. And you don’t, maybe they mean it. Maybe they don’t. So you gotta have some people that are telling you the truth.
AJV (38:35):
Yeah. And I love what you said too. It’s like, because how many of us have heard a good speaker, but then never remembered them. And it’s like, it’s one thing to be good. But you said it’s like, you actually, you need to figure out what makes you different. What, what makes you unique? I’ll share this from my girl crush, my celebrity girl, crush, JLo JLo. I love what she says. She says that everyone is good. It’s no longer good enough to be good. You have to be different. So what are you doing to be different? And that’s the beautiful part about all of this is you are already different. Whoever you are. It’s like you are already different in the world. Has your life experiences, your unique brand, you know, your unique DNA. They do not have your brand message. They do not own it.
AJV (39:22):
They do not possess it. And then we try to look around and blend in and it’s like, it’s not good enough to be good. You’ve gotta be memorable. You’ve gotta be different. Yeah. So figure out what is it that makes you really different. I love that. I love that. Okay. So then, and I promise, I’ll let you go. So you recently had a awesome new Ted talk that came out called the secrets of a champion mindset. So I know for so many people out there, something on their bucket list or one of their goals is to do a Ted talk, right? Yeah. So give us just your 62nd. Like if I were, if I were gonna teach you or coach you or help you get booked for a Ted talk, like, what would you tell somebody, like, what do they need to do to get out there and figure out how to go out and deliver a Ted talk?
MF (40:07):
Well, can I tell ’em the truth, AJ?
AJV (40:09):
Yes, absolutely.
MF (40:11):
I called you, I called AJ and I said, AJ, I wanna do a Ted talk. And she’s said, okay, well, and you help me thankfully. And Rory with kind of what that uniqueness is and all those things. And, and, and, and then you were so kind, and I know, you know, you’re incredibly busy, but you were so kind to sort of connect me with some people that had delivered some Ted talks. And, and then I connected with some of those folks. And one of ’em said, you know what? You, you’re in Atlanta, you’re in Buckhead. Let me connect you with the people that, that manage that Ted talk. And so I, I did and they bid, and I delivered a Ted talk a couple months ago secrets of a, of a champion mindset, which is, you know, clipping away. And I think helping a lot of people, which has been really fun.
MF (40:58):
So my advice to people is lean into, to the relationships that you have. I identify, you know, a stage. I mean, the good news is now there are so many TEDxs, there are so many Ted talks there’s there, there are some, I would say too to people that are better than others, there are some events that are more well managed than others. So I, I would encourage people to get really clear on that and make sure that you’re positioning yourself consistent with the brand that you wanna put out into the world. And so it was, as you, as you talk about it, as Roy talked about, it was about relationships. And then it was about leaning in and establishing those, helping them and, and they were kind enough to help me,
AJV (41:37):
Oh my
MF (41:38):
Gosh. Find a good fit.
AJV (41:39):
I totally forgot that. I even did that.
MF (41:41):
Yeah, I know. And that’s why I was like, can I tell the truth because your phone might blow up.
AJV (41:46):
I think like do that. I love that. It’s like, don’t try to do it on your own.
MF (41:51):
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
AJV (41:52):
Like, like you said, it’s lean into relationships. It’s you know, seven degrees of Kevin bacon. Right. Everyone knows someone who knows someone who knows someone, but put your dreams out there, put those goals out there. And it’s amazing. Once you’re willing to put something out there, then someone goes, I could probably connect you with someone who could probably connect you with someone. Sure. So it’s just never be afraid to put it out there and ask
MF (42:16):
Well, yeah. And, and, and also don’t be afraid to go right to the source, right. Go right. To me, there’s so many Ted talks now, Ted acts, whatever, go, go to some different markets and, and, you know, put a compelling theme out there. I mean, I think a, a book that I recommend to people who are considering a Ted talk is the red thread, who is a woman that I, I, I met through a woman, that’s a BVG friend. And, and, and that was a really it’s, it’s all, you know, cuz Ted talks are different and, and my Ted talk is different at some level, a little bit than what I deliver from a main stage. And, and that was really, that was a helpful book to identify what is that one thing that, that is gonna really, that gonna be really that thread through the whole thing. What’s that one thing people will lift up and extract from it and then maybe, you know, process deploy, think about it in their own lives. So that’s an important thing too, to recognize that the, the Ted talks that go viral, that Ted talks that are really, really good study those look at those. What, what in your mind made them good and, you know, lift that up and authentically apply it to yourself.
AJV (43:20):
Ah, that’s so good. I love that. And if you guys wanna go check out Molly’s new Ted talk, it’s secret of a champion mindset. We’ll put the link in the show notes. You can also just go check it out on YouTube. I’m sure it’s out there. You can also go to Molly fletcher.com, right. And Molly, if people wanna connect with you and stay in touch, where’s the best place for them to go.
MF (43:44):
I would say go to Molly, fletcher.com. That’s the best place. And, and, and from there they can source all of our social handles, all that kind of stuff. And
AJV (43:51):
Molly, you also have an awesome podcast which I think is helpful. You had amazing. Yes, you are such a great interviewer. I actually, I I’ll share this with everyone. I, I, hands down, I’ve been doing a ton of podcast interviews here lately promoting our national research study by far hands down. Molly has been the best interviewer that I have done on a show in a really long time. So major crew to you. So everyone go check that out. Thanks so much for listening, Molly. Thank you so much for giving us some of your time today. We love you. Everyone else. We’ll talk to you later. Catch the next episode of the influential personal brand. So
Speaker 3 (44:31):
Much for taking the time to check out this interview as always, it’s our honor to provide it to you for free and wanted to let you know there’s no big sales pitch, anything coming at the end. However, if you are someone who is looking to build and monetize your personal brand, we would love to talk to you and get to know you a little bit and hear about some of your dreams and visions and share with you a little bit about what we’re up to to see if we might be a fit. So if you’re interested in a free strategy call with someone from our team, we would love to hear from you. You can do that at brand builders, group.com/pod call we hope to talk to you soon.

AJV (45:14):
So welcome to the recap episode of my interview with Molly Fletcher on how to build, grow, and scale your speaking business. All right, y’all, I’m gonna keep this super high level, but really, really important because to me it doesn’t matter if you are thinking about being a speaker, if you are currently on that journey or if you are already an established speaker and you’re just trying to figure out how to do more of it or do less of it with higher fees this conversation is for you. So these are three big highlights. Three big takeaways from I got that I got from my interview with Molly Fletcher. So here’s the first one. And I said this probably five times in the interview, but I’m gonna say it again for the sake of all of you who are listening to this recap episode and you are not gonna listen to the full episode.
AJV (46:04):
The more you speak, the more you get to speak. And I don’t think we can say that enough. It’s if you wanna be a speaker, if you are a speaker and you do more speaking, if you’re currently doing a lot of speaking and you just wanna raise your fees, whatever it is, the formula is the same. The more you speak, the more you get to speak, or the more you speak, the better you get, right? The more you speak the higher your fees can be because you get better at it and more people see you. And then it becomes a conversation of supply and demand. I, I loved what Molly said is that, Hey, in the beginning it was, you know, one, you know, one event she was doing for free for some students. And then it kind of grew from there, but now they get over 300, 500 requests a year and she’s picking and choosing because she’s only gonna do 80.
AJV (46:51):
And I say only eighty’s a ton, right? Because in a speaking engagement, you’re probably gone for two days. That’s 160 days. That’s 50% of your year. That’s a ton. That’s a lot of days. But at the same time, it’s, they’re picking and choosing because they have such a large supply of requests. Why? Because the more you speak, the more you get asked to speak, and the more you get asked the pickier that you can do, right? Just because you get invited that that’s, that many times doesn’t mean you have to do it. But I love that because it’s such a great remem reminder for all of us and a great thing to remember from even me of going, it doesn’t just happen. You have to make it happen if it’s what you really wanna do. And that means you need to be willing to do it for free in the beginning.
AJV (47:38):
Very few of us actually start with fees from the very first time we do it. Why? Because we actually need the practice right before we say, Hey, I’m good enough for you to pay me to do we need to know what we’re gonna say? What impact is it gonna have? How am I going to differentiate myself? What is my message? And you need to get good at it. Right? And I, I love that. And it kind of leads into the second thing. It, it’s a great thing to put in perspective of right? The more you speak, the more you get to speak. And the more that you will speak because you better, more people see you all the things. But the second thing I think is a really great aha for me. And I never heard anyone say it this way is you have to remember that what what’s really happening here as an individual on the behalf of a company or an organization is inviting you a stranger to come and get on stage in front of their top client or their top employee employees.
AJV (48:33):
And they’re gonna pay you and hope what comes out of your mouth is good. That’s kinda a big risk. Especially when you’re paying a lot of money because you’re going, man. It’s like the words that come out of your mouth could really detract from our business could really set us off. So how do you, as a speaker, as an aspiring speaker, create more confidence and trust so that you don’t feel like a stranger to the people who are looking at you or talking to you or considering you, or even for the ones who have booked you. And I thought Molly gave some really good tips. There it’s one. You need to have tons of video footage. And guess what? Y’all, you can only have tons of video footage. If you’re actually out there speaking a ton, the more you speak, the more you get to speak.
AJV (49:21):
So one, I have tons of video footage and not just the highlights, not just the sizzle reel, not just pictures of standing ovations and people standing in line to meet you, but people need confidence and long what she said, long form content, 10 to 20 minutes of going, Hey, I just, I was able to watch you for 10 or 15 or 20 minutes. And I have confidence now that you do know what you’re doing and you will deliver a good message and you do it in a good way. That helps you become less of a stranger, right? It’s confidence inspiring and helps build some credibility and trust even before they’ve ever met you. So make sure you have tons of videos, create a YouTube channel, have long form videos, have short form. You need both. It’s not one or the other it’s both, but have lots and lots of video footage.
AJV (50:05):
Right. Other things she said is do pre-calls right. Actually get to know these people, don’t just show up and go help. It goes well. No, like do your due diligence figure out why are they having you? What’s the theme of their conference? How can you compliment the message that they’re saying internally to their team or to their clients what would make it a home run for them? What are the biggest things that they’re running into? Why did they decide to book you? How does this fit in with the other things they’re discussing at this meeting or throughout the year, those are all things that will help you line up to make sure that you compliment whatever they’re doing. And it fits very seamless and no one’s gonna say, Hey, it was great, but it felt really disconnected to everything else.
AJV (50:46):
That’s our job as speakers is to actually come in and do that due diligence and do that research to make it feel like I made this program just for you. And you don’t have to completely change everything you do every time. But have the opportunity and elements with each part of your speech. That is like, this is where I could tweak it and tailor it just enough so that it really resonates with each unique audience. So help yourself become less of a stranger. I think other ways you can do that, make sure you have a website, even if it’s a one page landing page with a bio and a link to a video, but someone needs to be able to go AJ vaden.com and go somewhere. And for all of you who are just getting started and like even mine right now, my website is in progress.
AJV (51:30):
I, I just have it redirected to my LinkedIn, right? Cuz on my LinkedIn, I can have media clips. I have recommendations and testimonials like just redirect it. There’s always a short term solution to the long term end result goal that you’re after. So even me right now where my website’s in construction, I just, you direct my LinkedIn profile because you can get media clips, you can get testimonials, all the things that I need are there. So become less of a stranger. And then the third thing which I loved, and it’s such a great reminder for all of us in this business. If you were trying to build a speaking career, you are also in sales, right? Right. You are in marketing, you are in sales, you are in customer service. That’s what are doing. And she talked about the power of referrals.
AJV (52:12):
She goes, I have built most of my speaking business. Most of my, most of my speaking contacts are referrals. They were people who were in the room who saw me speak, which goes back to the more you speak, the more you speak, but they were people in the room who said, Hey, have you ever spoken into this event? Or I think you could be great at this or what about this? So it’s making sure that you’re mindful that every audience you go to, it’s an opportunity to get invited to a new audience. So what are you doing? What is your message from stage about how like, this is actually what you do as a profession, right? Talking about other events that you’ve spoken at the are simple, easy ways for you to seamlessly add that in so that people in the audience go, oh, this is what you do.
AJV (52:58):
I wonder if I’m a part of any other groups or associations that would like a speaker like you. And that’s our job to figure out how do we very seamlessly weave that in so that it, it reminds entices the audience to refer you to other organizations. So very simple things that you can be doing to build, grow and scale your speaking business. I love this interview. I love her. She’s got such a heart for her message, which just oozes out of her. And there’s no, there’s no doubt in my mind, the reason that Molly gets booked so much so often is because she’s got a heart for what she does. She’s got a passion for the message. And you can feel that in her interview. And that’s a huge part of what we gotta do. This cannot be a job. This gets, this has to be something that you love to do.
AJV (53:48):
And it’s what you get to do full time. Right? And when that happens and it’s all about the excitement and the passion, everyone else catches on, right? Enthusiasm is contagious. So how can you, refall in love back into what you do that makes it so contagious. Other people are like, I need some of the at energy, some of that enthusiasm, some of that passion on my stage to reinvigorate my audience, right? People are looking for the emotional parts of us as speakers, as much as they’re looking for the content. So just remember at the end of the day, this cannot be a job. It gets to be a passion that you get to do full time that it’s not just a job. So thank you for listening. Go check out the full episode, go check out. Molly Fletcher, Molly fletcher.com. She’s amazing. This interview was incredible.

Ep 252: Community Building in the Real World and the Metaverse with Tristan Ahumada

RV (00:00:08):
Y’all you are gonna have a great time with me as I introduce you to one of my newer friends, but a guy that I’ve really come to love and enjoy hanging around his name is Tristan Ahumada. And he has someone that do the real estate space. And his personal brand is now extending out of that. But he started as an agent. So when he was in his twenties, he was rookie of the year at century 21. And quickly became one of the top agents. And still today he’s in the top 1% of all realtors. Well then in 2014, he founded a Facebook group and a popular social media page. That’s called lab code agents has over 137,000 members and built a community all around this industry. That’s some of what we’re gonna talk about. And so he still does that. And then today he’s also the CEO and founder of a brilliant tribe where he does speaking and consulting on social media strategy and, and community building and various things. And so it was an absolute, no brainer. We got to meet through success magazine. We have a, a mutual friend in Glen Sanford who now owns success magazine. And anyways, Tristan, welcome from the show, man,
TA (00:01:24):
Dude, happy to be here, bro. I’m happy.
RV (00:01:27):
It’s great to see you. So talk to me about, first of all, how did you build a Facebook group of 137,000 members? Because that applies to all of us you, whether it’s Facebook group or something else, but I know like community building has really become like one of community growth community building. I feel like has really become one of your, your superpowers. And then also one of the things that you’re really known for teaching out there in the market. So tell us how to do it.
TA (00:02:02):
All right. So you get a whole by bunch of Russian hackers and I’m joking. You could do it that way too. I’m sure. But the, the way that I did it was and this is where we overthink things. I defined the group that I was creating from the very beginning with the one simple thing that I was great at and that I enjoy doing. And at that time it was online lead conversion. That was it. So when I created this, I was speaking around the nation for realtor.com and I kept on getting the same questions over and over. I looked over to my wife on a plane ride and she said, start a Facebook group. And I said over, okay. And I started a Facebook group and it was just solely on online lead conversion. So the name came about by me and my friend, and he’s still our lead coordinator for our real estate team.
TA (00:02:56):
His name’s Jacob Fry. We sat in a room for two hours and we came up with the name lab code agents because we wanted to show the real estate world that there is a science behind, behind creating better online lead conversion. And that was it. And so when I go to people or businesses and I say, look, it’s time create a community, but don’t necessarily build it on an area, right? Like I work in this area, I’m gonna build it here or, or don’t build it around a specific business, like all for, let’s say you’re talking to attorneys, right? Let’s build it on something you love. It could be as simple as kayaking. It could be as simple as cars or the beach, right. It, and what happens is, as you start bringing all these people together around this passion that you have, everyone knows that you’re in that specific business and that’s you overthink? We’re like, well, it only has to be about this specific thing for my business. Right. And that’s, that’s the challenge that I face at the very beginning.
RV (00:04:10):
Yeah. So I hear a couple things in that the first, like me, your wife is responsible for all of your success hundred percent. The other thing is that, and I think this is a mistake that I’ve certainly made is just going like, oh, I, I have to sort of like build a community around like me, my business, you know, what the thing I’m selling versus building, building a community around a topic of things that you’re interested in. And I think it’s it, that alone. I think that, that even as you talk like that mindset shift makes a lot of sense to me because it’s also disarming in, right? Like if someone’s going, oh, I’m gonna opt into this group. So someone can eventually sell something to me, that’s a completely different environment versus, Hey, I found a bunch of people who like the same stuff that I like and one naturally inhibits growth and the, the other accelerates growth. So I think that’s huge. So do you, do you truly approach it? Like when you advise people on this, do you really say, like, don’t worry about the business. Like, don’t worry about making money from this. Just figure out basically how to throw a good party.
TA (00:05:25):
That’s that’s it, man. I, I reverse engineered what I created. I never ever envisioned making millions from creating a Facebook group. Right. And never did. I think I was building a community. I just thought I was just giving back. And so I, I want people to, to take on this community building as, as the, here, this one thing, and that’s the ability to give back, right? The ability to give back on the things that you love, this is why I’ve actually been thinking I’m like, should I, I love journals. So I love buying journals and journaling, all that stuff. And I’m like, should I start?
RV (00:06:02):
I love buying journals, but I don’t need to journal.
TA (00:06:07):
Well, dude, you and I need to talk where you buy your journals first. Cause I’m always looking. But I’m thinking, should I, should I start a group or, or a community around journaling? Because I I’ve created so many groups now at this point for different companies and we can just grow them. Right. All along the belief that, Hey, you like this, I like this. That means I’m gonna get along with you. Right. And, and then here’s the second part after you define the group. So let’s say you do the, the journal one. What does the brand look like? Nobody ever stops to think about, well, what do I believe then this is your expertise RO the branding. Right. But what is it that this group stands for? And to take it up a little bit more, let’s think all the way. And this is what I did when I created lab coats. I go think all the way to the end. What would the logo look like on a hat and a shirt on a notebook, on a banner? Would people wear it right? And would people be proud to wear it based on what I stand for? And nobody thinks on that when you’re building, even if it’s a journal community,
RV (00:07:20):
It’s like a sport rep, a sports team, basically it’s like, we’re a Jersey or, or something that you take you take pride in. Now, when you talk about building groups, are you, are you talking pretty specifically about Facebook groups or are you kind of, so initially in general,
TA (00:07:35):
Initially it was. And then I, as I started growing lab code agents, I understood that it was just, it was beyond lab codes. Now it’s a big community outside of lab codes. So it, it includes Facebook groups. It includes newsletters, which are extremely powerful, right? Youtube, Instagram, TikTok, everything. You can imagine, even websites pod cast blogs, and we just bring it all together. So I’ve, I’ve created this team that allows companies to come in and be like, well, what are you missing? Or what are you struggling with? Let’s, let’s kinda supplement that piece with us and we’ll take it from there. So we help them. If they haven’t created one, we help them. If they have, we see where they’re at, what they’re missing and then we plug it.
RV (00:08:24):
Yeah. I mean, it’s interesting. Like we talk about what we do. I mean, brand builders is very exclusive to personal brand strategy. We take a person and we go, we’re gonna build a brand around this, which I think is an evolution from historically branding has been, there’s a company let’s brand the company. It almost occurs to me the way you’re describing this, that this is like a, a different entity. This is more of like branding a topic like, or branding an area of interest mechanically. Like I would say personal branding. Like a lot of times I tell people, they go, Hey, will you come do this for the comp for my company? And my answer is no. We don’t work with companies. We’ll work. We’ll do it for your executive or your, your, your founder. But the principles we teach apply there. And I think it’s, the mechanics are very similar, right? You launch a podcasting, you have a YouTube group, but it’s very, like, it’s literally dawning on me as you described this. And I’ve heard you talk about it before, but it’s like hitting me in this moment that it’s like, you’re branding a topic. Like you’re building you’re, you’re kind of like putting a rope around. We’re the people who all like this thing. And so that’s it, dude, is that it is that right? That’s how you, yeah. And
TA (00:09:33):
You know, what’s funny, I’ve never done the reverse, which is what you do. I’ve never, I’ve never done it for a specific person. I mean, I’m thinking back, it’s like, we’ve got a virtual assistant company. We’ve got a lot of SAS companies. We’ve got brokerages, like big national brokerages. We’ve got, we’ve got companies that sell products tech. Oh yeah, dude. You’re right. Never a person. Interesting.
RV (00:10:01):
So well I think that’s a huge and, and even so, so just to be clear, let’s say whatever company, I don’t know, home Depot hires, you, you don’t go start a home Depot, Facebook group, Facebook group, and a, a home Depot podcast. You, your advice would be like, let’s start a DIY podcast. Got it. A DIY, you know, YouTube channel and a DIY Facebook group.
TA (00:10:27):
Yeah, dude, I’ll give you an example. So I was approached by a company called virtue desk. And I’m, I’m telling you this one, because it’s exactly what we did there, virtual assistant company. But I said, let’s not name it that right. Why don’t we focus on leverage right. On the leverage aspect
RV (00:10:46):
To that don’t name, the Facebook group, you’re saying you don’t wanna name the Facebook group
TA (00:10:50):
That you got it. So we named it leverage and then powered by virtue desk. Right. And then we, we started a whole, every, all around leverage. And now people understand when they’re like leverage. Oh yeah, of course. Right. What, what do we need staff to leverage and tech. And that’s what we did. We, we talk about staffing, we talk about tech and then inevitably people bring up virtual assistance. And that’s how we’ve grown them over the last year and a half. And now dude, they’re on the community. It’s like the community. Then we build the team, right. Because the other part to this is, well, if I’m building a community who do I need? Right. And I think that that’s a challenge because I’ve also seen communities fall apart. When you bring in, when you bring in people that are very ego driven, that they need to be the face of it over, Hey, let’s work as a team. Everybody’s got their part. You’re great. Over here. You’re great over here. Right. And that that’s a challenge sometimes. But when it comes to a company, Rory, what I found is that you target the best users, those users that are so proud to use the product. Right. And they’ll come in and they’ll do it for free. Wow.
RV (00:12:09):
So it’s like, you’re targeting the super fans and saying, Hey, you you’re basically like waving giving them the badge and saying you’re in
TA (00:12:16):
Charge. Yep. And that’s what we’ve done. So that’s the first question I get from businesses. So how many people are we gonna need to hire? I’m like, well, hold on. Because when you run the community, you use your super fans. You just give them, give them swag, give them, instead of them having to, by the merchandise, give it to them, invite them to events, make them feel like they are part of the inside group. Right. And then you see that it starts coming up. It’s like, whoa, this is amazing. I can’t believe they do this for free hell R I do it for free. When, when Glen reached out to me to run the success magazine thing with you, I, I was like, dude, I’ll do it for free. He’s like, no, I’m paying you. I’m like, okay, well I was gonna do it for free.
RV (00:13:02):
Yeah. Well that, it, it, it’s almost like the difference between, you know, like who wants to follow an account on social media that is from a company. Right. And it’s like, what are you gonna talk about? Like you’re staff meetings and your staff birthdays. Like, I don’t care about that. But if it’s, it’s almost like going, instead of having a, a, an account that’s based on your company, you go start a themed account, like a meme account. Yes. On whatever the topic is. Yes. It hit me like a light bulb brother. It makes a lot of sense. It also makes me realize that have been very, very bad at this. I don’t think I’ve ever like, you know, really, really GRA grasped this perfectly. So while I have you, I, I would be Remi if I didn’t ask you about real estate, because I I’m, you’re like the guy and we have I was talking, you sharing this with you.
RV (00:13:57):
Before that we started that there is a brand builders group. Like our clients are basically two groups. They’re the expert, newer types, the coaches, speaker, author, consultants, and then more and more, it is professional services type people. The doctors, the lawyers, chiropractors, the, and real estate specifically is we find ourselves attracting a lot of, of agents. And you know, we, we know some about the industry, but like, I just wanna ask you directly, how do you think real estate agents should be using their personal brand in the market it today? Like, how would you say this is how, if you’re a real estate agent this is how you should do social media. This is how you should do podcasting. This is how you do your YouTube channel. What
TA (00:14:50):
A, what a great question. So, one of the things that I got to do over the years because of lab code agents is consult Facebook and Instagram. So I was just, I was on the phone with them. Two weeks ago, we were breaking down everything and we were going over this exact thing. And when I was looking at where the world is, and they were looking at it with me, if you look at the five most visited websites in the world, it’s Google, YouTube, Facebook, Twitter who knew, and Instagram, those are the five most visited websites. Now TikTok is on the rise. It’s like number 20. And it could be like number 18 as of today, who knows. But when I look at this four out of the top five are social media, and this is the way the world communicates. This is the way it delivers messages.
TA (00:15:44):
This is the way it builds relationships and, and communities connect this way. And this is why I was talking to Facebook about this. And I’m like, man, this is, this is branding, right? The, if you want, if you’re looking at branding, where do you go to get the most out of what you want to do? You, you meet the client where they’re at and that’s Google YouTube, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and TikTok do it. And so now you have to come up with a plan that makes sense. And now you have to understand Facebook. Well, what do you have? You have groups. You have Facebook live. You have now reels. You have some stories. You have messengers, you have rooms and soon you’re gonna have, well, you better be buying an Oculus now because that’s gonna let you into the metaverse right next,
RV (00:16:34):
This, this is what I’m gonna ask you about next. So you, that’s such a great segue. I didn’t prepare you for it, but I’m gonna ask you about that next.
TA (00:16:41):
Perfect. All right. Next, you got Instagram. Same thing, feed stories. I GTV, which now shifted to, just to just video. And then you’ve got reels is where it’s at. Right? Reels is definitely where it’s at. And then same thing with TikTok. Tiktok only really got two, which is lives. And the up to three minute TikTok feeds on your feed, but what, what are you, what are you doing? Where where’s the world heading? Right. Well, right now it’s in short video, right? That’s why YouTube jumped on. That’s why Facebook has reels. Instagrams got reels talks on the way up, but what’s next? I mean, that’s where, that’s where look at the number one most downloaded app. What, what was the number one most downloaded app on Christmas day. Just on Christmas day, it was Oculus the Oculus I’m like what? I’m like, that’s where the world is heading.
RV (00:17:41):
Okay. That’s so I, I wanna, okay. I, yeah, we, I wanna talk about that for sure. So I love this, by the way, do rattle off Facebook, you were talking about what are all the things, because Facebook has a, like, you’ve got a fan, you’ve got a group you’ve got. Yeah. So
TA (00:17:57):
The main things feed, you’ve got groups you’ve got Facebook live, you’ve got the feed, you’ve got reels, you’ve got stories. You’ve got the page. So business, right. You’ve got rooms so much, which is the copy, the copy of clubhouse. And by the way, rooms are rooms are doing pretty good. Twitter’s got spaces, same thing as clubhouse. Right. And then you’ve got messenger. And then obviously you’ve got horizon, but you need in Oculus to go into horizon, which is there for form of the metaverse.
RV (00:18:31):
Okay. Now, before we dive into the metaverse in which we are going to do the content wise, if I’m an agent, and I want you to answer the question as an agent, because I think whatever your answer is, is gonna be the same. If you’re a financial or a lawyer chiropractor, I think 1%. So what is the content that I should be posting? Like what can make me care enough? Because real estate agents in particular, I think are a little bit tricky because I’m really only interested in talking to a real estate agent when I’m really at, it’s more like, can at need service. It’s like, I wanna sell. I wanna buy, or I wanna refinance, or I wanna invest. Is that what, what’s the content strategy? What, what should they be posting?
TA (00:19:22):
Content strategy is this. And, and this is from us deconstructing all the platforms and, and the best practices over the years, and then going to Facebook and Instagram and sharing it with them. And that’s a combination of, I’m forcing you here to find your pillars because you talk to all the influencers in, in, in the social media world, they have pillars that they alternate between. So in essence, I’m saying, Hey, these are gonna be your pillar that you have to alternate through until you find a groove and it revolves around this. You sell with a story. So Rory, whatever you’re selling, right. You’re gonna sell it to me, but in the form of a story, that’s number one. The next thing you don’t,
RV (00:20:08):
You don’t mean the stories feature. You mean when you sell, do it through the form, a story. Tell
TA (00:20:14):
Storytelling we got it. Storytelling. You got it. That’s it. That’s number one. So let’s say you were only gonna post two Facebook once a day. You’re gonna go sell with a story, whatever you’re trying to sell me, tell it to me with a story. That’s number one, number two, teach. Teach me something about your industry that I don’t know about because whatever your industry is, I can guarantee you that you take it for granted by not sharing it with more people on social. So that’s number two, teach number three. Here’s where it gets a little crazy. Number three is advice. So S T a a is for advice. Here’s where you give advice on something that you love, something that you’re passionate about. And R look at my background. I’ve got a storm trooper helmet.
RV (00:21:02):
I’ve got super Superman
TA (00:21:04):
Mo Superman, right? That’s my passion like dude, besides journals, right? That’s my passion. So you’ll see me on social every once in a while. If I order something like that, I’ll be on boxing it, or I’ll talk about it, or it’ll be a piece of tech. And that’s the advice I’m talking about. If you’re great at gardening, or you do amazing over here with cars, that this is your opportunity. You just
RV (00:21:27):
Shine. Could you call this hobby also? Is that kind of
TA (00:21:29):
Like, yeah, this is you give advice on a hobby advice on, on your side hustle, advice on something that you love. Okay. And this for a lot of us are where we’re gonna go viral and we never tap on it ever. Like, this is where my friends, where I’m like, Hey, dude, you need to be doing this. And all of a sudden, they get like hundred thousand views on TikTok and I’m like, see, yeah,
RV (00:21:52):
See. So that’s how Gary B beat up, built his whole freaking brand. Talking about wine. Like, dude, I mean, that was how he built his whole freaking brand. Is there another
TA (00:22:02):
Pillar? There’s a fourth one. And it’s it’s Y so it’s S T a Y it’s stay S C Y. Why is you talk about you? Show me, show me what’s going on at home. Show me what’s going on at, with your kids. Or if you’ve got a dog, if you’ve got, what, what are you eating today? Rory, you know, you you’re at you, you just finished an amazing event. I wanna know more about that. Where are you at? What are you doing? Right. I’m in my house today. I just got to interview somebody. Well, I should tell people about that, right? Or I’m about to drink whatever. But the point is, I’ve been doing it a lot more and people connect with me more because the one thing people love to know more about you, and I’ll give you the best example. And then we can shift over to whatever you want, the Kardashians. How many selfies can they take?
RV (00:22:50):
I mean, it’s crazy, right? I mean, people, people, people love it or just, just the whole concept of reality TV in general, right? Like we are watching other people live. Their life is surprisingly engaging. And from a, from a, from a videos strategy, it’s surprisingly retentive. Like it holds people’s unbelievable attention, right? I mean, how many people have bachelorette parties? Well, we got one of our, one of our, one of our clients is downstairs right now. And he was we actually have two clients that we actually have more than that, but we have one downstairs who was on the, on the bachelorette and that’s cool, you know, know, and they just, people, people love that. And, and they, they, he can’t go anywhere without people stopping him in the street and taking pictures because they, like, they feel like they know him because they had this like intimate experience of watching him live his life for whatever amount of time.
RV (00:23:47):
Okay. So I, I love it. So basically the selling with storytelling, I love that teaching. Amen’s what we talk about, you know, in your, your, your hobby and in your kind of your personal life. Talk to me about meta. All right. Because yeah, here, here’s my here, my thing on this, I was admitting this to our team. You know, I was in college when social media came out. I should have been early, but I was late to the party because I was so skeptical. Then I got on the bus, built the social media, but then we sold the company and I lost on my, on my social media when we exited our last company. I knew about out podcasting early, cuz I had friends that were in it. I didn’t get on board. I kind of joined later, built that up, had a nice podcast.
RV (00:24:34):
But then we sold, sold that as well. Now we have our new this podcast, which is growing quite nicely, but it’s, it’s a lot harder. Like we had to start over in 2018 with all new social accounts, new podcast, everything. It is a lot harder because there’s so much more noise. So I feel like in many ways it’s like, I feel like I missed the wave. You know, I missed.com because I was just still in high school, missed social media, missed podcasting, then missed TikTok for the most part. And so I’m like, I’m not gonna miss the metaverse, but I don’t understand it. So right. So tell me, tell us the metaverse and how do we build our community there? What should we be doing right now?
TA (00:25:22):
All right. So it’s, it’s very easy right now, right now it’s easy because imagine, are you familiar with Xbox live
RV (00:25:34):
Or, I mean, not, I’m not a gamer. Okay.
TA (00:25:37):
So I’m, I’m a gamer by heart. So let me explain it through games. We’ve all played video games or at least we know about them and we’ve all played video games with other people, right? So the metaverse in essence is it’s a virtual world where you can engage with other people. Now what it’s going to look like versus what it looks like now. Cause right now it looks pretty crappy. It’s like, there’s so many different metaverses even, even E X P right? Glen, Glen Sanford’s company got one. Right, right.
RV (00:26:10):
They’re all pretty basic. They have success world and they have E XP world. Like I spoke at, I, I I was the key, one of the keynote speakers at the E P global shareholders meeting, speaking to, I don’t remember what it was. I think 5,000 people who were nuts. I was as an avatar in E X P world speaking to 5,000 or 10,000 avatars who were all sitting in front of me. And that was like a man blew my mind. I was like, I can’t, I, this is so crazy. But, but so that’s a, that’s
TA (00:26:44):
A metaverse that’s the metaverse. So that’s a, metaverse now what Facebook is trying to do because they’re the ones who hold the actual tech piece, the Oculus. Okay. For, for the virtual world that’s been accepted. Right. They’re the ones who are ahead. So if I, I, I, I would recommend if you’re listening to this, go buy an Oculus and I don’t own any of Facebook. So what
RV (00:27:09):
Is in Oculus is the, is the, is the set of glasses go
TA (00:27:12):
Buy? Yeah. It’s a set of virtual reality glasses that you put on your head. And then you’re immersed into a world where you can choose to play video games, to meet with other people, to jump into other worlds. And I’ll tell you what the metaverse is going to be. It’s going to be the future of the internet. So Rory, instead of you and I going to amazon.com, we put on our headgear of whatever metaverse is, is the, is the main metaverse that wins. And then we go to amazon.com in the metaverse and we’re like walking through, like, if it’s a mall and then we pick things out and we’re like, oh, I want that. I want that. And you’re like, Hey, Hey, Hey, RO meet me at meet me at this shop inside of side of whatever metaverse it’s called. Right? And then you and I meet there, we sit, we have coffee, I’m having coffee here.
TA (00:28:11):
You’re having coffee there. And, and you’re like, Hey Roy, I, I gotta go. I need to meet a client at a, at a property. So I just switch over to a 3d world, right. Property. And I go in and my client and I’m like, Hey, Joe, let’s take a look at this home. You go through the home. And as you’re going through the home in this 3d world, the difference is I can tap on the refrigerator and be like, this is how much that cost. I can expand on certain parts of the house that I couldn’t do in real life. I can be like, you wanna replace the, this tile, hold on, let me check. And all of a sudden now to see houses in the real world, doesn’t make sense
RV (00:28:59):
Because you don’t have to travel there. First of all, and you have this enhanced functionality of these kinds of things, and you, you, that it’ll, it’ll advance quickly to the point to where it will basically feel like it’s real life or close enough to it, that we would all go. Why if Trista, you’re where you’re in California, right? You’re in Malibu and I’m in Nashville and going, we’re talking through zoom, but we could just hop into the metaverse and we would actually feel like we were sitting next to each other. Yeah.
TA (00:29:30):
Yeah. That’s, that’s how it’s going to be. Now. It’s never gonna replace the in person feeling, but look, if I can show a property and I can get all of the details, step outside the home, show you the school and just be there in an instant. You’re gonna be a lot more comfortable that you’re getting a lot more information to make a quality decision on buying a home. Are
RV (00:29:52):
You in that scenario, you just described, you’re showing a home in the metaverse are you demoing a, a home in the metaverse that is a replica of a home that you’re trying to sell in real life? Or are you correct selling virtual property?
TA (00:30:09):
No, you’re not selling virtual property yet. That that’s when NFTs and the metaverse combine. Oh my gosh. And that’s, that’s a whole different aspect to this. So I think for now the meta versus just the future of the internet, and you’re gonna see a, a good adoption rate, depending on who wins. I think since the Oculus is already accepted, they have a big foot in, right. This is why everybody I talk to I’m like, look, just do me a favor, go get an Oculus, jump inside, have a meeting or two. So you can understand where the world is heading. Is
RV (00:30:45):
That how you get in? I mean, so that’s, so here’s two questions. What are the main metaverses right now? And how do you actually get into one
TA (00:30:55):
Look? So the main metaverses you’re you’re gonna find that they don’t really exist. Everybody’s talking about a metaverse and they’re like, oh, this is a metaverse over here. I’m like, no, dude, there is no such thing as a metaverse the closest thing is Facebook’s Oculus because that’s the only one that has something fully built in where you can actually submerge yourself through the Oculus. That’s it? The other ones are, I mean, if you want to talk about E XP world, which is by ver Bella, right? Ver Bella built it out. That’s how everything else is. And you’ve got Xbox live. You’ve got PlayStation live, all of these things that we’ve been playing in for years inside of a community where we can play video games against each other. That’s in essence what the Mead verse is. It’s an online virtual world where I go in, I can participate with somebody else and then buy things. The difference is they want it to be decentralized in the future. So no one company owns it like the internet. It’s a, yeah, it’s a true play. And that’s why Facebook wants to jump in early. They’re like, yeah, yeah, yeah, we can do it. We can do it. But you know, they’ve had, they have such huge distrust with everybody right now. Right.
RV (00:32:13):
So, well, yeah. And so like fortnight and Roblox, these are, that’s a metaverse these are, but they’re independent. Metaverses but those are attached to a game then. Yep. What is, so then have you heard of sandbox? Yep. Okay. So the, I, I think it, I don’t don’t quote me on this. I, I, I am just learning it cuz I’m going, I’m not gonna miss this wave. Somebody there’s something about somebody bought property next to Snoop dog’s virtual house and paid like a million dollars to own the property next to Snoop dog’s virtual residence. Something like this. You heard of this. Yeah.
TA (00:32:54):
Yep. I did.
RV (00:32:55):
So what is sandbox is sandbox and, and by, and also by the way is Oculus the name of Facebook’s metaverse
TA (00:33:03):
No, Facebook’s metaverse is called horizon. So you can go and check that out. And the sandbox is an open metaverse, but I mean, dude, the it’s it it’s like E ex P world. Like it’s not, I, I can’t submerge submerge myself into it. So right now there are gonna be a lot of different companies saying, yeah, we’re a metaverse here, we’re a metaverse there. And the, the idea behind it is just to get as many people in there to build the community so that it takes off. And we’re like, Hey look, we are, we are the metaverse whoever that’s going to be. So right now there is no leading company that has the most people in it. It’s very, very startup. So what I would do right now, if you want to understand it better, the closest thing you can see as to what it actually should be, go by an Oculus and put it on because then you can start feeling what it actually should look like.
RV (00:34:01):
And then you will go into horizon, which is the name of Facebook’s
TA (00:34:04):
S horizon inside. It’ll give you an option, but it’ll also give you a whole bunch of other options. Like I can play video games. I can have a meeting with you, Rory. I can go into meetings. Right. Or I can go into the world, the horizon world, which then functions like the success world that you and I.
RV (00:34:22):
Okay. So if I actually bought a pair of Oculus goggles or glasses or whatever you call them, you and I, and you have a pair, then we could have had this meeting inside of horizon.
TA (00:34:32):
Yeah. We just can’t record it yet. Cuz it doesn’t work as well. So yeah, we’re, we’re already looking to starting we’re we’re starting to see if we can hold our podcasts, you inside of the Oculus. Yeah. And record it and then play it on YouTube. But so this
RV (00:34:46):
Is what I’m asking and this is what I’m driving to is how do I start building my community in there? Right. Because yeah. You know, one of the, one of the natural things to do is to repurpose your content, right? So all of us have spent years cranking out all this content and it lives this place in that place and going you know, like I remember when I went into success world the first time for those of you that don’t know I was the interim entrepreneurship editor of success magazine for the, for about a year, Glen Hanford was one of our brand builders group clients. He owns Bel NEX P world. They bought success. We had just met. I was an, and that was how I met Tristan cuz Tristan’s the P people, editors still currently active. And, and we met and, and ver Bella built a metaverse for success offices. And so I would go in and I remember going into the success world, going into their auditorium and they had like videos of Jim RO playing. And I said, ah, I could do this. If I had, if we had a brand builders group headquarters inside of a metaverse, there could be an auditorium with a screen that’s playing our content. And anybody else basically like a, a virtual movie theater is kind of how I was thinking about it. Yeah. But there’s no way to buy property or build a building like that. Not yet,
TA (00:36:05):
Yet. No. Imagine I just sent you a link to horizons so you can see. Okay. But what, what the future is going to be like is if I go into video game and I wanna upgrade my just in the video game, if I wanna upgrade my gear, like have a better armor or a, or a better weapon or shoes. Right. That’s how the metaverse is gonna work. Oh, you wanna, you want to have, this is why NFTs work really well with it. Right. I want to have a play said, I actually own right. A virtual place, a house. Boom I’m there. Now I can, now in my home I can have my virtual car because I’m in here all the time. I need to, I need to have a virtual car Rori.
RV (00:36:51):
Right. So people are making Louis Viton virtual handbag and, and you have an NFT and then you, you, your avatar is carrying a Louis Baton and people are already paying, paying for this.
TA (00:37:03):
Yeah. That’s, that’s the whole world that we’re heading into. But I think we’re, we’re very early on, but I think you and I, and people listening in should really start looking at what we can do in this world, in these, in this coming world so that we can have a presence there.
RV (00:37:21):
Right. And I gotta tell you, you know, I don’t, I never like social media. I did like podcasting. I don’t like going live. I didn’t like getting on clubhouse live. And I don’t like the idea of a metaverse especially, but one of our, one of our brand builders group clients are name’s Tori Gordon. And she she’s blown up huge on TikTok, like has nearly a million TikTok just interviewed her for the podcast. And she said something to me that hit me so hard. If she said the sooner I can understand it, the sooner I can shape it. And that hit me because I said, whether I like it or not, I think this is gonna happen. This is the freaking matrix dude. Like this is half a step away from the matrix. And I go, yeah, if there’s a bunch, if in real life, there’s a bunch of broken people who are discouraged and have anxiety and fear of COVID and you know, whatever else, if they can put on goggles and escape that and go into some other place and have more joy and more freedom and more whatever. I see people doing that and going, I wanna be in there shaping that world. That’s important. That part is important to me. And I’m glad to hear that we’re early on this because we’re not gonna miss this tri no,
TA (00:38:43):
We’re not. Don’t worry.
RV (00:38:45):
I’m you have to tell me, I get like you have to I’m messaging you. Yes. I’m holding you accountable to telling me like, all right, dude, this is the metaphor. Cause this it’s very similar to almost like how, when MySpace came out and there was like MySpace and que oo and Facebook and whatever, and they were all kinda like all that stuff battling. What I hear you saying is that’s kind of what’s happening right now is
TA (00:39:07):
Yeah. So on that, I I’ve asked Facebook. I’m like, I, as soon as horizons or the Oculus allows for our Facebook group to be inside of whatever you’re creating, please let me know because you better believe lab code agents is gonna be in there. And the only way you can jump in is with an Oculus. So yes, we’re, we’re on it. And I have meetings with them often. And so they’ll let me know as soon as it turns on. So I’ll be like, dude, you gotta jump on.
RV (00:39:42):
Yeah, this is, this is crazy. I mean, it’s, it’s crazy to think, but it’s, in some ways it’s like very wild and different. In other ways it’s going the mediums change, but people’s needs stay the same. And the way you build relationships with people stays the same. And the way that you add value to other people’s lives stays the same and the way you establish expertise and authority. And in your case, the way that you build community stays exactly the same. It’s just a different environment.
TA (00:40:11):
That’s it? That’s so true, man. That’s very true.
RV (00:40:16):
Did I have love this? Like always I, you, I, you’re fascinating and stimulating conversation and ideas and thank you for sharing. This has been so enlightening and, and just invigorating for me and, and tri wish you the best. And you know, I think it gives me hope as, as I look ahead and go, oh, okay. Like the metaverse is gonna happen. You know, at some point like this ship, it already feels like it’s gonna happen. We don’t know exactly what, but knowing that people like you and Tori Gordon and you know, all these other people and are, are making sure the good people get in there so that we can all shape that world to be an awesome one. And maybe it could be in some ways better than the real one that’s that that’s inspiring to me. So keep doing what you’re doing, brother we’re we’re fans.
TA (00:41:07):
Thanks bro. I’m a fan of you guys too. So keep going.
RV (00:41:11):
Sounds good, man. All the best. Hey, brand builder, Rory Vaden here. Thank you so much for taking the time to check out this interview as always, it’s our honor to provide it to you for free and wanted to let you know there’s no big sales pitch or anything coming at the end. However, if you are someone who
Speaker 3 (00:41:32):
Is looking to build and monetize your personal brand, we would love to talk to you and get to know you a little bit and hear about some of your dreams and visions and share with you a little bit about what we’re up to to see if we might be a fit. So if you’re interested in a free strategy call with someone from our team, we would love to hear from you. You can do that at brand builders group, do slash pod call brand builders, group.com/pod. We hope to talk to you soon.
Speaker 4 (00:42:01):
That interview blew my mind. Oh, wow. All right. So where did we start? Tristan AHU? What a powerful interview. I wanna share with you my top three takeaways and, and my highlights. And there were some big ones and I have to tell you like, but there’s been a few interviews here lately that have really caused me to change my behavior and start looking ahead differently specifically at web three and what is coming there. And this is, this is definitely one of them. So as I think back on that conversation that we just had with Tristan, you know, I’ve got so much respect for Tristan because I mean, he’s built one of the largest communities, if not the largest community of real estate agents in the world. I mean, and that’s pretty amazing, like and that’s, that’s pretty commendable, right? So alright, so here’s my top three takeaways.
Speaker 4 (00:43:03):
So number one, don’t try to build a community around a company, build a community around a topic. You don’t build a community around a company. You build community around on a topic that for sure is gonna be one of the most salient things that sticks with me. It already has been just thinking back, like ever since I actually did, had that conversation with Tristan is going, oh my gosh, this makes so much sense. Like every company, even if you think out like having a, a, a page, right, like a, a Instagram profile or a Facebook page or something is like, nobody cares what’s going on in your company. Like other than the people in the company. But the, if you, if, if you can build your community around a topic, then every, you know, all sorts of people are going, are going to pay attention.
Speaker 4 (00:43:59):
And so I was thinking about specifically how this also translates into your content marketing strategy going right, that this would apply for personal brands. Just the same is to go. If, if all I post about on social media or on my public facing profiles is information related to the products and services that I sell. Nobody is gonna pay attention. So what you, you don’t your content. It shouldn’t be based around the products and services you sell. It should be a around the problems that you help solve and around the areas that you study and around the topic itself. Right? So, I mean, if I was always, if, if my social media feed or this podcast was just a constant, like advertisement for, Hey, here’s the next event that’s coming up and he, here’s how our coaching program works. And did you know, have you heard about this, this, this new feature that we rolled out to our brand builders members, like nobody would pay attention, but you build the audience around the, the topic of personal brand strategy and helping personal brands build better businesses and all the skills and content around that are, are needed for that.
Speaker 4 (00:45:11):
And then people pay attention, they engage, they’re interested. And then obviously our goal is like, Hey, oh, as you get to trust me more and you trust AJ more and you see like, hopefully the quality of the, the content we put out and the people we hang out with and things that you go, Hey, what do these, these, these folks actually do, maybe they can actually help me. And that is the big difference. And so, you know, I, I think that’s, it’s a subtle shift, but it’s a major change in like the downstream impacts of understanding this, this nuance don’t build. Don’t try to build community around a company, build community around a topic. And relatedly, I think the thing that I’m adding to that as saying, don’t create content around your products and services, create content around the topic, create content around the problems that you solve and, and that, you know, the issues that your customers face.
Speaker 4 (00:46:09):
You know, again, I think about like the home, this home Depot example, if it was just like, Hey, did you know that home Depot has 50% off this month? No one would pay attention. But instead their content marketing strategy is all like DIY videos, helping show you how to do, you know, your own DIY projects. And then it’s like brought to you by home Depot. So when you need some nails and you need wood and you need paint where you’re gonna go, you’re going to home Depot. So that’s, that’s a subtle shift, but boy, is it important to understand? And you know, if you’re not building a community, like if you’re not growing your following or you have a following and they’re not engaging, there’s a good chance. Your content is all about you and your life, which isn’t bad, but it’s a good marketing strategy because the only people that care about what’s going on, you and your life are people who are in your life.
Speaker 4 (00:47:00):
Okay? So that’s not how you’re gonna attract a bunch of strangers to pay attention. So if you’re not growing, there’s a good chance that your content is either about you and your life, or it’s all about your company and your products and services. Instead of it is around this topic that people are interested in, which happens to be a space that your personal brand and or business revolves around. And, and so big, big shift and super duper powerful. The second big takeaway for me in that whole conversation, which I don’t know why this hit me so hard, and I don’t know why, you know, I just never really paid attention to this is like that four out of the top five in the world, our social media sites, like four of the top five websites in the world are social media sites. That is crazy.
Speaker 4 (00:48:00):
And so to realize and go, wow, Facebook, Instagram Twitter, like these in to being, you know, social media sites. They’re the biggest websites in the world. And so what it tells me is that community is an inherent part of the human experience, right? Community is integral to what it means to be alive. Like we live for the idea and the opportunity to connect with other humans. Our lives have purpose to the extent like our lives have purpose inside of the context of what they mean with somebody else’s life. Like if I just live by myself, there’s not a lot of purpose to my life. I’m not interacting. I’m not helping anyone. I’m not affecting anybody. My life has purpose in the context of other people. And so that is like, life is about this community. And, and it’s, it’s, it’s very much affecting of course, how we spend our time online.
Speaker 4 (00:49:08):
And, you know, social media is, you know, when does social media really come on the scene? And in the early two thousands, I mean the mid two thousands. And so you’re talking about 15 years and these are the, the most traffic sites in the world. Meanwhile, you’ve got companies that have been around for hundreds and hundreds of years that have websites and, and have had money and started a lot further ahead. And, you know, they’re not anywhere in the top five to, so that is pretty wild. And, and so I think it’s just understanding, like, to me, it’s not so much like, Ooh, social media, social media, as much as it is this grand epiphany of like this bigger level conversation that to be human is to crave community, to be human, is to define our life in the context of how our lives con connects and intersects with others.
Speaker 4 (00:50:00):
And so as you’re building your business, how are you creating these connection points? And this is something that historically, I don’t think I’ve done very well. I’ve always viewed social media as like a broadcasting mechanism. And even when we started brand builders group, like for our members, the first couple years have been really about curriculum and content, right. And it’s like, we’re teaching, like, here’s everything that we have learned and it’s broken down and hopefully it’s world class. We think it’s world class. We hear that it’s world class. And it’s really incredible, but, but brand builders group 2.0, which is where we’re at now and where we’re going. And that’s sort of like where AJ is leading us and, and our team is the community. And what’s so, what’s so incredible is like as good as the content is. What’s amazing is like, our community is in incredible.
Speaker 4 (00:50:49):
I mean, we’ve got people, so many people with hundreds of thousands of followers, people who sold their company for hundreds of millions, even billions of dollars, we’ve got people who are on TV, we’ve got you know, professional athletes, professional musicians. We’ve got influencers like in every different industry. We’ve got people who are mul T seven figure earners and, and like just New York times, bestselling authors and hall of fame speakers. I mean, it’s crazy. They’re all sitting in the same room together, like literally sitting in the same room together. And that is so powerful. And so I think BBG 2.0 brand builders group 2.0 is gonna be about community where brand builders group 1.0 has largely been about content and curriculum. And, and so this is an impactful message for me to receive from Tristan relevant. I would say to the direction that, that we are, that we are heading.
Speaker 4 (00:51:42):
So related to that, here’s my third takeaway, get ready for this. The meta of our is coming, oh my gosh, what, what am I even saying? The metaverse the metaverse is coming. Yes, the metaverse is coming in a big way. And I think it’s coming faster than we think I do, because I think, you know, unlike, you know, the stodgy companies of old, the biggest companies in the world today are technology companies. They became the biggest by being adaptable and flexible. And so they’re, the leadership is much younger and the, the, the, the environment is more innovative and technological, and I think this is coming and I think it’s coming hard. And I think it is coming fast. I mean, did you hear what Tristan said? The number one most downloaded app on Christmas day was Oculus was the horizon which is the, the meta Facebook’s metaphor that goes with the Oculus goggles.
Speaker 4 (00:52:43):
And I went, I did, I bought ’em. I bought the Oculus goggles after this interview. I’ve been to church in the metaphor. I’m you know, creating my avatar. I’m trying to figure it out. And I’m also very much following the world of NFTs here and trying not, I mean, I’m trying to learn and understand all of this stuff. If you’re not following me on Instagram, you should go to my handles at Rory Vaden. By the way, there’s some fake out there. Mine is just my name at Roy Vaden. And I did a post about some glossary of terms for like web three. And, and so, you know, web three is, is the, this whole new era of, you know, communication. So it’s like basically pre there’s pre-internet and you know, and then, and then you have, and then you have web one, which is like the internet and URLs and websites, which are one way communications.
Speaker 4 (00:53:42):
And then web two is social media is exactly what we’re just talking about this, you know, in user U U U C G user user or UGC user generated content, which is like all these social media sites was web two and, and web three is what’s coming now. And most of what you hear in web three, just real quick, again, if you go, I did a full little video tutorial on these terms on my I GTV. Now it’s called Instagram video, I guess, but you know, you have web three to me, which is like the big conversation. And then inside of that, you’ve got two conversations going on. One is the metaverse and one is NFTs. The metaverse is virtual reality, right? So this is this is the idea that you can, you, you know either through your desktop, on your computer access a a, you know, a world and the, the big ones are, you know, OB horizon is the, is Facebook’s metaverse the other, there’s a couple other big ones.
Speaker 4 (00:54:46):
They’re San inbox and decentral land, which, so those are like, as I process it kinda like the three predominant meta versus that are out there. And, and so there’s different ways to access them. One is one is the Oculus goggles from Facebook, which I bought and, and experimenting with. So you have this whole idea that like in web three, we will be inside of virtual reality, communicating, doing very much what we would do in real world, but we’re not restrained by geographical limitations. And especially in a world where disease has obviously affected our everyday and, you know, maybe a part of the future, the idea of being able to sit in a room with somebody in San Francisco without having to get on an airplane and without having to run some of the risks of, you know, being in physical proximity to somebody.
Speaker 4 (00:55:40):
I mean, I, I think this is gonna be huge. The other big conversation that you’re hearing happen right now in web three is NFTs. And, you know, NFT is a non fungible token, which basically when you hear NFT, I just want you to think a digital, like cert certificate of authenticity or the parallel in the, in the modern world, like is a, a, a title, just like you buy a house, you get a title for it. It proves ownership. If you, if you buy a paint, if you buy a car, you get a title. If you buy a painting, you get a certificate of authenticity, something that says, this is the original piece of ownership. Like this is the original version of this thing, and you are the owner of it. So it is both a certificate of authenticity, and it is a certificate.
Speaker 4 (00:56:28):
It’s like a title that proves ownership, well NFTs the emergence of NFTs tees, give us a way to prove originality and to prove ownership on the blockchain. So when you hear blockchain, what is blockchain? Well, blockchain is just this, this ledger this like public, think of it as a, as a, as a public ledger of a transparent sort of like record keeping of who owns what, and who’s buying what and how much it is. It’s like a transparent, you know, record keeping kind of like, I process it as like you know, this, this, the city would keep you know, all the deeds and all the titles except this is public it’s available for the whole world to just see like this record of ownership. So the blockchain gives us the ability for all of us to see and go, oh, that was the original owner, because it’s hosted in this transparent, you know, way through this net, a network of computers, which is what makes up the blockchain.
Speaker 4 (00:57:30):
And so we can all access and, and, and verify who are the original owners and, and the, and, and which ones are the original digital things, which before now we’ve not able been, we’ve not been able to prove what is the original digital thing. Like if it’s a JPEG, no one could say, Ooh, that was the original JPEG, or that’s a picture, a copy of the JPEG. And that’s really important, right? Cuz there’s a difference in value between something that is original and something that there is a copy of the original Mona Lisa is worth hundreds of millions of dollars or tens of millions or whatever. The number is a picture of the Mona Lisa ISN worth much, maybe a few bucks. If it’s a really good picture, so it’s, it’s proving ownership and now NFTs give us the ability to track original ownership.
Speaker 4 (00:58:16):
And this is going to matter tremendously for you and me. There’s a few different use cases. So there’s, there’s a lot of different use cases that I see coming with web three. I’ll give you a few of them right now. So NFTs really are happening right now around artwork, whether you go well, if I’m not an artist, why do I care? Well, there’s a couple things. One is because you could create a piece of art. Like one of the things we’re gonna do is take our quote quotes and we will like, I mean, we’re not actively in this, but I am looking, I am on the hunt right now for a digital artist to take my quotes and create digital art out of my original quotes. So that it’s like, it’s, we’re creating a piece of art so that, you know, we can kind of put our stamp like, Hey, this is our thing.
Speaker 4 (00:59:05):
This is our piece of artwork. The other thing is you’ll be able to like share royalties and your fans can become your investors if you’re gonna release like a book let’s say where like there’s a music artist right now, NAS NAS. Who’s been around for years and years who just sold 50% of his royalties to his audience, to his fan base through NFTs. So he created some NFTs, you know, these digital pieces of art, but what they represent is an ownership in his new album. And so as he makes money from the label, 50% of whatever comes to him, he is sharing with the people who bought into his NFTs. Well, he raised millions of dollars by selling those NFTs. So he gets millions of dollars now in addition to whatever he got from the record label. And then as he earns money, 50% of that goes to the fan base who bought the NFTs.
Speaker 4 (01:00:04):
But that also means that all of these people have a stake in making sure that album is successful. And so the fans are like owning a piece of the work. I mean, this is mind boggling. I can’t even believe the things that I’m saying out loud right now. And that’s why I’m going, this is coming faster than faster than we all think. So, so you’ve got that. You’ve got you know, basically being able to digitize your book or digitize something and, and show proof that this was the original version of it. Just like, you know, if you have the original Tom Sawyer, that book is worth a lot more than a copy of Tom Sawyer. And so the blockchain by way of NFTs is allowing us to track originals of, of digital creations, which is gonna have huge, huge implications. And then you also have the metaverse right as you’re going.
Speaker 4 (01:00:58):
If, if you do any type of events or even as you run your team team it’s only a matter of time. Like one of the things I wanna do soon is start having some of our internal company meetings in the metaverse. I wanna start getting our team familiar with what that feels like because our team is, our team is remote. And so if we can all be sitting in the same virtual room together, and it feels more like you’re in the same room together, then some other tools like Skype or zoom or whatever. And there’s some cool functionality you can write on a chalkboards and sh it feels like you’re in a room, right? Other than you look like an avatar but that technology will evolve and it’s so it’s crazy, but the metaverse is coming. I would recommend staying plugged here.
Speaker 4 (01:01:45):
I think one of the things we do is take all these complicated terms and try to make them simple. A couple other quick terms, you know, if you if you wanna buy or sell NFTs, you have to do that on a marketplace, right? So just like eBay is where you would like buy and sell used items. And, and it’s like a, you know, know a secondary market. Well, NFTs are the same way, right? It’s, it’s almost like if I had a piece of art, I have to go somewhere to sell that art. Well, in the, in, in the web three, that would be a place like open C is the big one that you hear open C is kind of like eBay for NFTs. It’s very much like eBay. It’s where you would resell NFTs that you own. Open C is a marketplace that happens to use Ethereum, which is a very it’s, it’s a type of cryptocurrency.
Speaker 4 (01:02:38):
There are other ones Solana. I think it is. There’s there’s like a couple other marketplaces that use different types of crypto, but they’re all based in this digital decentralized in world where we can keep track of who owns what, and it’s not dependent on government or banks, which why it’s decentralized and it’s, it’s crazy. It’s crazy stuff. So there are implications of this for personal brands, stay tuned to that. We’re learning aggressively. We’ll be trying to simplify that and make it make sense for you as we go. A lot of crazy things happening there, but the metaverse is coming. And so, you know, when I think about this whole episode, it’s going all right. Community is never going away. Right. It’s just the environment in which community happens is gonna change just like it’s happened in your life. Right? So when you think of the metaverse, you might go, oh, that’s stupid.
Speaker 4 (01:03:38):
Or I don’t like that, or I don’t. And that, or that’s dumb. Well, be careful because there were a lot of people who said that about the internet. Oh, that’s stupid. It’s a fad. It’s not gonna work out. Right. That’s dumb. Well, look at how much the internet affects our life. And then that happened. And so for me, I was in high school when that happened. And then a few years later in the mid two thousands, social media came on the scene and people say, oh, that’s stupid. It’s a fad. It’s gonna go away. And it’s like, well, look at how long it’s it’s been around it. And it’s, it’s, it’s controlling the world. I mean, it’s, it’s the top four of the five top websites in the world. This is where people are spending their time. Why cuz it’s community. And so I think the meta versus coming, I don’t like it.
Speaker 4 (01:04:24):
I wouldn’t choose to go. Yeah, let’s all learn a completely new way of life, but there are many reasons why I think it’s coming. I think it’s coming fast. And we wanna help guide you there and help you understand what’s going on and try to, as we try to figure it out ourselves and as always try to be valuable to you. But I think the principles that try and talked about a building community are not gonna change, but the practices in terms of the locations and the functions and the tactics of how very much could in a web three world. So keep coming back to the influential, personal brand podcast, stay tuned in and we’ll be, we’ll be learning right alongside you. That’s it for this one. We’ll catch you next time on the Joel personal brand.

Ep 250: Trends in Personal Branding National Research Study by Brand Builders Group

RV (00:07):
Hey brand builder, Rory Vaden here. Thank you so much for taking the time to check out this interview as always, it’s our honor to provide it to you for free. And while wanted to let you know there’s no big sales pitch or anything coming at the end. However, if you are someone who is looking to build and monetize your personal brand, we would love to talk to you and get to know you a little bit and hear about some of your dreams and visions and share with you a little bit about what we’re up to to see if we might be a fit. So if you’re interested in a free strategy call, call with someone from our team, we would love to hear from you. You can do that at brand builders, group.com/podcast brand builders, group.com/podcall. We hope to talk to you soon.
RV (00:54):
Oh man, I’m so excited. I cannot, I cannot wait for you to meet Tori Gordon. Tori is someone who has become just one of my favorite people that I met in the last couple years. We met her through brand builders. So she is, she’s a brand builder. She’s one of our clients, but she is extraordinary and she’s been doing huge things long before we ever got a chance to get to know her. In 2021, she actually has been one of tos, top 100 female creators. She has over 800,000 followers on TikTok. She has transitioned that into a fantastic coaching business. Speaking, she’s doing brand deals. There’s a number of things that she’s doing. And her content is really around helping people overcome their suffering and find perspective. And it’s just super inspiring. She is also a trauma informed breathwork facilitator.
RV (01:54):
She’s been featured in outlets like NBC and Fox news and CBSs and Yahoo business insider. And she hosts a podcast called the coachable podcast, which is in the top one and a half percent of all podcasts globally. And it’s fun to see that taking off for her and just so many different things that she’s working on. And obviously she’s an influencer. So she’s, she’s doing brand deals with big companies like can bud and better help, et cetera. And just inspiring a lot of people more than that. We just think she’s cool. And and she’s someone even like so many of our clients, even though she’s a client, it’s like somebody that we look up to and we learn from and just felt like you gotta meet Tori Gordon. And she’s got some awesome stuff to share with us. So anyways, Tori, welcome to the show.
TG (02:41):
Thank you so much for having me that was such a warm intro. And it’s just fun to be here and have this conversation with you. You’re somebody that I very much you and AJ are somebody people that I look up to admire and have learned so much from. So it’s, it’s fun to have this come full circle and get to chat while we record. So I’m excited for the conversation.
RV (03:03):
Yeah. Thank you, buddy. I mean we, we totally believe in you. You’re easy to believe in. I mean you have just built, you know, a, a such a phenomenal and loyal following which we would describe as quickly only because we’ve been around for 20 years. And you know, it’s taken you less time than that, but tell us the story a little bit. I, I mean, I wanna hear, I wanna hear about TikTok and how you’ve built that, but, but before that, tell us a little bit about your personal story. And you, you know, how you got started and how you figured out what, you know, I know that led to how you figured out what type of content you were gonna start producing.
TG (03:48):
Yeah. Yeah. It’s a great place to start. I think for me, I never would’ve anticipated that I would be having this type of conversation or be doing the work that do with clients or online ever if you’d asked me, you know, what, what would my future look like a couple years ago? You know, I’ve, I’ve been doing this full time for less than two and a half years. And before that I was in corporate sales, outside sales, and then I was leading a sales team of about a hundred people in five countries teaching and training them in sales training and onboarding and performance management, and was really kind of growing my, my career in that, that traditional way. And for me, I grew up in Alabama in Tuscaloosa. And so and I grew up in a family of educators and teachers, my mom and dad were both professors at the university level.
TG (04:47):
And so it was really always instilled in me the value of education and learning and being a student of life. And you know, I never really had a clear idea though, growing up of what I wanted to do. And so fell into sales. Like I fell into a lot of things early in my life, looking for other people to tell me who to be and what to do. I got my degree in social work at the time because a friend of mine said, Hey, it’s easy and it’s interesting. Come get this, you know, this degree, it’s an easy a and it was in college that my sister was diagnosed with acute myeloid leukemia. She’s 21 at the time. So I was for the first time experiencing a lot of upheaval in my life and just felt kind of lost at that season about who I was and what I wanted and felt like I needed to stay close to home to cuz of everything that was going on.
TG (05:43):
And over a couple of years, you know, I lost my sister, lost her battle with cancer. We lived through a massive F four tornado that came through our hometown in Tuscaloosa. And then my mom was diagnosed with stage four ovarian cancer and wow, those losses just kind of piled up on each other to the point where after my mom passed away, 10 days after my 27th birthday, I kind of looked at my life and I looked around this beautiful house that I owned at 26 and the money that I had had made and all of the things, all of the boxes that I had checked that I thought were gonna make me happy and I felt alone. I felt empty. And I didn’t know what if I were to have been the one to, to have died genuinely like would I have left behind?
TG (06:39):
Would anybody care? Like, did I make an impact? Did I, did I have a powerful influence on people in a positive way? And obviously my, my mother and sister did in so many ways, not just on my life, but so many other people. And it put, set me on this path of really trying to figure out what my legacy would be. What did I wanna be remembered for and how did I want to leave the world a better place than I found it. And so that required me to do a lot of personal healing and get to know myself in a whole new way and give myself permission to do things I’d never done before. And so my journey really started from a selfish place of, of really trying to, to figure out my life path and purpose and what I needed. And it, it began with starting a podcast just to talk about the things that I was learning personally in my journey and that evolved very quickly. I actually got a call from my corporate boss and her boss right after I launched my podcast back in 2019 saying the first thing they said was we saw that you launched a podcast and were disappointed.
RV (07:45):
Really.
TG (07:46):
Yeah. And they told me, you know, we, this looks like it takes a lot of time. How do we know you’re not, you know, doing this on the side, we want you to be fully committed to this company and nothing else. And it was very clear that they hadn’t listened to the show because they had no idea what I was talking about on it. And they made a lot of accusations. And so it was clear then I think my life started to open up this natural path of saying, if, if you really want to pursue this, you’re gonna have to have a deep commitment and current to do something new, but you need to learn how to trust yourself. And so after that conversation, I put in my two weeks notice and I started on this entrepreneurial journey that I’ve been doing the last two and a half years, but had no idea was one of those jump out of the plane and build the parachute on the way down kind of thing. Wow.
RV (08:37):
I mean, so I, I wanted to share that story for so many reasons cuz it’s just, it’s such a powerful story. And there’s, I think when people think of like, you know, oh, TikTok or they’re a talker, you know, it’s easy to go, oh, it’s somebody who, you know, just wants fame or just, just, you know, waste their life away in video. Or like we have all these really stupid preconceived notions of like what that means. And we, I think specifically for brand builders and our community of mission driven messengers, I mean obviously we of the things that we say all the time is you’re most powerfully positioned to serve the person you once were, your story is such a beautiful, one of going, you’re just using the tools of the day to help people walk through pain that you have already experienced. And I think it’s really important for people to catch that it’s like, it’s not vanity it’s, it’s not, it’s not even entertainment. It is. You’re, you’re just using a vehicle to reach a lot of people to, to try to help those who are going through something like what you’ve been through. I mean, to lose your mom and your, and have a, a tornado that magnitude all within a few years. I mean, that’s crazy. That’s, that’s crazy Tory.
TG (10:03):
Yeah, it was a lot. And I didn’t, you know, mention the three grandparents and the uncle and all the other people who passed in that time. So there was a lot that was going on. And, and to your point, I think a lot of people do we have these, these ideas in our head about what it means to be on social media. It’s funny. I was having a conversation in a discord channel the other day with a venture capitalist who was asking me about TikTok. And I was saying it would be an amazing opportunity for him to, to get global exposure and just to become kind of known as an expert in his space. Even if you’re not, you’re not selling, you know, your services on, on the platform, you’re just letting people know who you are. And it’s funny that no matter where people are in their journey, there’s all of these ideas that people have about, oh, people would think of me, what he said is people immediately think I’m phony.
TG (10:59):
People would think what he is really saying is people would judge me and I’m afraid of that. And the other piece is how many of us don’t think our, our ideal client is out there. And for me it was really, you know, before I was even thinking about selling to an audience or converting people that watch my content into clients or anything like that, it was just, I have a story and a message that I feel like can help somebody. And if I had had somebody, there were people in my life that I listened to that really encouraged me to, to do the work on myself that I needed at the time. And my, my goal was just to be a voice, you know, that would encourage people to to live a life that they were proud of and to, to stop avoiding things that they were, they were trying to run from.
TG (11:52):
And I think, yeah, practically, it’s just a, a smart strategic move because there’s millions upon millions upon millions of people that are on this platform. And the funny thing is when I got on TikTok, it wasn’t really strategic. It TikTok actually reached out to me and they said, Hey, it was in the middle of the pandemic. It was traditionally known as a young kid’s platform with that. A lot of kids were on dancing and doing trends like that. And they noticed a need in the market that there are so many people that are at home that can’t go anywhere and we wanna educate and inspire people through our platform. So can we bring content creators to create educat inspirational content across all these different industries? And I was one of ’em and then I just, for the first 30 to 40 videos was completely doing something I’d never done before, but it, there was this huge permission slip there because no one I knew was on TikTok at the time. So I just was doing something that was a little bit new and I a little bit fresh and ultimately resonated with people. Mm-Hmm
RV (12:59):
so, so let’s do talk about TikTok a a a, a little bit in terms of why do you think you grew so quickly? What can people learn from that? What do they need to know about it? I mean, obviously, yeah. I mean that, it started as a dance thing that there it’s, it’s still very dance driven. Mm-Hmm there. Music is still very musically driven in, in a lot of cases. And so one of the reasons that I love highlighting your story is you, you don’t do anything close to that. You, your, your videos are moving and profound and deep. Like they, they are, they are, I mean, you’re talking about deep issues to trauma and mental health and like these, these kinds of things. And so, you know, you, your, your profile is evidence of proof that it doesn’t have to be a certain type of content. Right. yet I know that you’ve also put a lot of thought and work into it and probably made a mistake here and there. So can you just like walk us through that a little bit?
TG (14:03):
Yeah. I think definitely early on, I was trying to figure out what my voice was gonna be on this platform, because the thing about TikTok, if you’re coming from Instagram or any other social media platform TikTok at the time, really required me to think differently about how I was gonna share my message. And what I knew was my sweet spot was, was really just talking authentically to the camera. And so I started doing that like on my daily walks during COVID, I would have no makeup on, and I would just like be telling, you know, sharing a, a snippet of, of my day or something that you know, had just listened to in a podcast or something that inspired me. And I think the thing about TikTok is it feels really relatable and raw and real, the it’s built in such a way that you can create content on the fly and really document your real life, as opposed to what we had been traditionally kind of conditioned into, which is perfect feeds and perfect photos.
TG (15:03):
And this highlight real. So people were really hungry for authenticity and, and something that genuine. And so regardless of, of the type of content, I think the thing that helped me was just pulling, allowing myself to like put down any mask I wore on any other platform and just show up as me. The thing that really, really does well with, with audiences on TikTok is feeling like they know the person that they’re watching that you’re part of their life, or you’re part of this journey that they’re going on. And, and just telling a story is of one way to really engage an audience and take them on, you know, that journey. But yeah, we talk about deep topics and, and the thing that I’ve realized is that trauma doesn’t discriminate. You know, everybody has experienced something hard in their life and they’re all seasons that, that we need support in and can relate to.
TG (16:07):
And that’s the kind of content that moves people. It’s either funny, it’s emotional in some way, whether it, it causes you to laugh or to cry or to, to feel something think about all the, the videos you’ve seen of dogs or, or the, you know, pet of the week. And it just like makes you wanna cry. But I just talk about, you know, personal stories. And I, that’s what I encourage other people to do is let people get to know you on a deeper level that they might not see on other platforms.
RV (16:39):
So I, I have that question for you. So clearly that has been your strategy on TikTok. That’s worked really, really well for you. The, you know, and, and if y’all, don’t already follow her, if you don’t know. So if you it’s coach, coach Tory, Gordon is her TikTok handle. You’ve got videos of you crying and on camera and stuff. So do you think that other, do you think that that approach doesn’t work on other platforms? You know, just kind of like the raw authenticity thing, do you think it just especially works on TikTok? Do you think that other platforms are migrating that way now, or they’re not did it, did it really just work cuz you were early to the platform mm-hmm like, do you know just like I guess subjectively what’s your sense of that?
TG (17:34):
Well, I’d say since Instagram has rolled out reels a lot of the, the things that you see do really well on TikTok are starting to do well on Instagram several months later. So I think there’s part, I don’t think it’s necessarily only on TikTok, but for those who’ve been on Instagram for a really long time, there has been a way that we’ve been conditioning used to seeing feeds and content there. So TikTok was for me, the first platform that kind of was this permission slip to be more vulnerable on social media. But I think that’s the way it’s trending in general, across platforms. People want realness. They want to see that they’re, we’re tired of that kind of fabricated airbrushed look all the time. And I think that showing up on Instagram different ways, whether it’s through video content or through other types of posts, but ultimately when, what I’ve experienced in trying to build a personal brand is people want to know you and TikTok makes it super easy to just post you can post a large quantity of content so that people can get to know you quickly as opposed to feeling like I can only post one post a day on Instagram.
TG (18:57):
Right? it it’s sort of like taking your Instagram stories and actually posting it. So it doesn’t go away after 24 hours. So those little snippets into your life that you might post on your, your story, people actually can go back and kind of track your history and see the things that you’ve done or the things that you’ve talked about. And, and there gets to be kind of this, this theme of what is this person’s content about? Is it, am I gonna go there and I’m gonna learn something, am I gonna go there gonna be entertained? Am I gonna go there? And I’m gonna be inspired. Am I gonna laugh? And people start to, to go to your profile cuz they’re looking for a certain type of content. And so the thing I love about TikTok is very quickly O the audience will tell you the, the kind of content that they wanna see more of. That’s just how the algorithm is built. There is so that anybody starting out, even if you have zero followers, you can get organic reach and the TikTok audience will tell you if they like it. And then you can do more create more of, of that kind of content, which is invaluable feedback to get
RV (20:14):
Mm-Hmm . And so the do you think that, like, in terms of the mechanics of the platform, the way the videos are edited, the, you know, like you’re talking a lot about the kind of content and sort of the overall feel mm-hmm in terms of the mechanics of what, you know, functions you need to be using, are there certain things that you would recommend for that? Or is it really just about posting consistently staying, you know, kind of like on a topic, let people see you and, and that, or is, is there also some technical things or strategic things that you go actually, like if you’re gonna do it, here’s some things about how you wanna do it. Mm-Hmm functionally speaking.
TG (21:03):
Yeah. Definitely record in the app. That’s make it native to the platform. It’s a something that they really, really like when it comes to the algorithm, they they’ve built the platform in such a way that it’s easy to record right there in the TikTok app, as opposed to recording you know, with your HD camera and then uploading it. And having this perfectly curated video. It’s, it’s almost better if it’s not a lot of my content has been terribly lit, you know, when I’m walking my dog in the middle of the night or sitting in my car before going to meet a girlfriend for dinner, and it’s just like, I just whipped out my phone and I press record record, and I just started talking. So I wouldn’t over it’s it doesn’t need to be overproduced. The other thing I’ll say practically is, is definitely use the, the text overlay feature because the TikTok algorithm picks up on the text.
TG (22:02):
That’s written through the app and those key words show up show the algorithm who to show that piece of content to. So that’s really helpful. So if you have keywords such as success or motivation or mental health or anxiety that that’s gonna dictate kind of who gets to see your piece of content first, and if they like it and they watch it for a significant amount of time, that population gonna grow getting people’s attention early is another thing. So just practically doing something that kind of hooks people in. And, and this is something that’s talked about on a lot of PR platforms, but especially on TikTok, if you’re just a user of the platform, you’re gonna start to notice the types of that really gets your attention. There’s something that happens in the first couple seconds that makes you intrigued. And that can even just be a shift of, of the camera, like the camera angle that you have or a sound that you make.
TG (23:05):
So using the, the video, like for feature within the app, using the text overlay and using keywords and now I think actually it’s becoming sort of SEO driven and keyword driven. So it’s actually, your videos will show up in Google if you search for certain keywords. So it’s similar to what YouTube has done. When you’re thinking about titles or, or kind of click baby word choices, that’s gonna help people to, to click on your your content. So that’s one thing you can be thinking about, but ultimately I say people really like to be taken on a journey. So if you’re thinking about the type of content, think about either something you can teach or steps to a process something like that even, and it can be around just anything and everything. Whether it’s, Hey here, 10, 10 best things to do on a date or the 10 things you don’t wanna do on a date that can be 10 pieces of content right there, and people will come back for more. Do
RV (24:16):
You, how long does it take you to make a TikTok video?
TG (24:20):
I, the be the shorter, the better traditionally so around, I would say five minutes if you’re editing and everything that I would tell people to do 15 seconds or less, less for a TikTok, if you’re just getting started. But there’s a three minute feature now and I sometimes use that and those have done extremely well, two but ultimately I don’t overproduce my content. I really I try to make it as raw as possible because that’s kind of my, my thing and how people know me, the more edited, the more transitions there are. It actually just doesn’t do as well with my audience. They, they know me for just sitting there and talking to the camera spilling my heart out and then you know, letting that be that be it, I don’t really overthink it when I, oh, it comes to producing the content itself.
RV (25:22):
How do you make money from this? Okay. So this, that, this is a question I think that people have, right? Like you know, you start doing this, you’re incorporating it into your rhythm, even if it only takes five minutes. And of course, when you’re first learning how to use the app, like, what are all the buttons do? It’s there’s, you know, learning curve. Sure. The it’s a lot of time, there’s some risk. I mean, you’re putting yourself out there. I mean, I think to the, to, to the fear of to, to the fear of you know, that VC, that person that you were talking about earlier being judged, I think you will be judged. I mean, you will have haters. Like you will have some people who, who show up, but like, so you, you do all of this. How does it turn into money? So talk to us about that.
TG (26:11):
There’s several ways. One is just creating content on the platform. Once you have reached, I believe it’s still 10,000 followers. You can join the creators fund, which will pay you based on the number of views that you get. And you just get paid simply for creating content that gets viewed. That’s one way you can also
RV (26:39):
That’s really cool by the way, cuz that no one else has none of the other platforms have that. I don’t think of just like mm-hmm we just pay you money based on views alone without an ad running on your video or something. Yep.
TG (26:52):
So that’s and that’s available for any and everybody. So that’s one super easy way. The second is if you have a thousand followers, you can start to use their go live feature. That’s one of the best ways to create a real community, having some kind of cadence and consistency around going live so that you’re really building relationships with people and on your lives, people can pay you so they can pay you through coins. They can tip you just on your videos, on your channel in general, there is an option to add tips. And so people will just, if they like your content, they’ll, it’s basically like being able to support an artist or something that you like, but you can support a creator through tips. So
RV (27:37):
It’s like a band, like a band playing at a bar or something and you just like drop the money into the tip chart.
TG (27:44):
Yep. And it will interesting surprise you the other day. I just actually added that feature and I never thought, you know, anybody would, would do it. And then I looked the other day, somebody had tipped me a hundred dollars and I was like, wow, that’s so amazing. So I really felt compelled to reach out to that person and start a relationship with that person. Just thank them for their generosity. But you’ll be surprised. You know, I think especially as content creators, we forget how much of an impact we really do make on people and how one piece of content can be the thing that inspires someone to quit a job or leave a relationship or start a business or ask for help or whatever it it is. And people feel indebted to you when, when you’ve been kind of that voice, that, that was guiding them in a time that they really needed it and they want to give back and they want to say, thank you in the ways that they can.
TG (28:39):
So whether that’s through lives or tips that’s one way that you can monetize it. Then as you grow, there are so many brands that want to collaborate with content creators on TikTok. It really is. Video is the next, the next thing that’s, that’s really being pushed on social media. We moved from, from photos to, to video and now into whatever the metaverse will be in the future . But right now TikTok is, is the best place for, for small businesses to really grow their audience and their business, but also bigger brands to, to connect and collaborate with, with content creators. So there’s lots of ways you can monetize as a person or as a small business. Just by promoting and talking about your product. If you are a small business, I’ve seen so many people just completely blow up to the point that they can’t fill orders because they started to share about the story behind their business, why they started it, you know, the, the struggles that they were facing, the process of, of creating something as unique as, you know, glass blown ornaments or, or metal work or just whatever your uniqueness is, you get to really show that off and people wanna support what, the types of content that they, they enjoy watching.
RV (30:11):
I love that. That’s, I mean, that’s simple, but that’s, that’s, that’s a lot of different things. I mean, you’ve got the creator fund, you have the tip function, you’ve brand deals, and then you have basically just driving your audience to buy your thing, which is kind of the world that we live in mm-hmm at brand builders group is going like build an audience, add value, develop trust, and then show ’em how you can go to the next level. Right. The to that point. So just real quick, how did you find brand builders group? Like how did you find us? Why did you reach out to us? Like tell us a little bit about that, about that journey?
TG (30:51):
Yeah, well, like, like I said there are people in our lives that kind of point the way and show us, I always look to people who are, are doing the thing I wanted be doing. And as many listeners of the show know like Lewis houses is probably one of those people for many of us who we’ve watched and admired and, and listened to. And I remember hearing you on Lewis’s show and seeing all the things that he has built. I, I wanted to work with somebody who could guide me in terms of all of these opportunities. I was kind of naturally getting anyway. I didn’t know where to focus my attention or my time or my energy. And it had felt like in, in a year and a half or two years of doing this, I had been piece it all together and trying to hire somebody for, you know, a website and hire a branding person and hire somebody to help me with ads or whatever it was.
TG (31:55):
And what I really needed was a mentor. What I really needed was somebody who could, who had done it before and then could provide me with the advice and the, the guidance and the, the network that I needed. And when I heard Lewis talk about it, obviously, I, I checked you guys out, got on a call and it was an immediate yes, for me. I didn’t know any other business model or company like brand builders existed before. And I really don’t think that there are many out there that do that, do it at the level that you guys do it. But it was one of those things. I was like, how quickly can I get involved and start to, to get in be part of this community, because I could see the, the value in it from the start. And it’s only allowed me to accelerate the growth that, that I’d already built up into that point and see a longer term vision for how is this gonna be sustainable over time?
RV (32:59):
Yeah. I love that cuz I think that’s one of the, you know, some people we work with are like brand new in their journey and it’s like, help me get clear on all this. Somebody like Lewis is obviously way far down the path and it’s more of like help me sort out my options. But I think with everybody, we’re always trying to play that long game and go like, how do you make this substantive? Not just viral or, you know, a flash, but like a true sustainable career. You know, when meeting people like you and hearing your story is just, it’s like you, you should be, I mean, there’s such a need for, for what you’re doing. And it’s been, I think, you know, aging, a heart and, and, and mine in our teams like has been the first couple years of brand builders group, I think have been a lot about the, the curriculum.
RV (33:48):
You know, we’re just trying to formalize, like you’re saying like how have we built what we’ve built and helped the people that we have and like turning it into a process that I think the next generation of brand builders is really about . And it, I love when I was chatting with you just before we started. And you’re like, I just saw Hillary and I just saw Anton and like I was trying to connect with you. I was like, I missed you when I was in Atlanta. But like I think that that is potentially, you know, gonna be a big, you know, really where the power is going, going forward. So I think it’s awesome that you’re humble enough to wanna be a part of that. And then to see you reaching out to people, Tori, and like building relationships with the other members has been, has been awesome.
TG (34:32):
Yeah. I mean, when I think about investing now, as opposed to when I was initially investing in coaches or, or mentors or programs early on on the motivation has definitely shifted a bit. Now, obviously I care about the curriculum, but I really care about the people that are in, in the community. Who am I networking with? Who, who can I learn from? Who can I support and how can I collaborate with them? That’s really so much value that you guys bring on top of everything else that you teach is just attracting really powerful purpose driven leaders together. And that when you get people like that together, there’s just synergy. And so many idea is that, that form and how can we do this? And and that’s really exciting for me because as a entrepreneur that has built an online business, it can feel super isolating. And like you’re the only one. And you only get to connect with people, you know, via the internet. And that’s great. And sometimes you, you wanna go deeper and that’s what we get to get to do and what I’ve, I’ve had the opportunity to do with other brand builders, which has been really amazing. I love
RV (35:51):
That. Yeah, that’s that, that fill just fills me up and you know, I’ve, I’ve, I’ve gotten no doubt. Like, you know, if I could buy stock in somebody, I would buy stock in Tory Gordon, because it’s just like the trajectory of where you’re going and, and the people that you’re hanging out with inside our community. It’s like, you, you can, you quickly spot the ones who are willing to do the work and willing to spend the time and get to know each other, speaking of the future, just while I have you. I do wanna, I know we got way over time, but, but you mentioned the metaverse, this is something I’ve started paying attention to a little bit. You know, I was late to the game with Facebook. Definitely missed the boat on Instagram, missed the boat on TikTok. Podcasting was the one thing that I kind of caught the wave early, but then we ended up selling the podcast when we sold the company.
RV (36:39):
And so that disappeared, you know? And so mm-hmm, , we haven’t been in position to kind of catch a wave in a while. And one of the things I’m starting to look at is the metaverse and as much as I’m like, oh, I don’t know if I like this. I don’t, I don’t know if I understand it. I can’t help, but go. I feel like this might be something we need to pay attention to less. We missed the boat again. And so just mm-hmm because you’ve been riding that wave out there. Yeah. Like what do you have any thoughts on what’s ahead and what you think’s coming like a little bit about that?
TG (37:14):
Like you, I have my, my hesitations and my fears around what, what the future holds, but I am also, I have learned to follow where the young people go and I’m not I’m I know I’m still young, but the, the kids are kind of on that cusp of what’s coming and what’s new and it’s, they it’s to crypto and it’s the metaverse and it’s NFTs. And I actually heard an interview that you did with, I think Tom bile talking about NFTs on success of successes page on Instagram. And that kind of got my, my wheels turning. And so I started to do my research and we just invested in our first NFT. And metaverse project over the weekend. I’m really excited about because the truth is I, I do think that’s where we are headed. And like you said, it it’s about getting in early and really adopting the, the technology and just accepting that this is kind of where the future is headed.
TG (38:20):
That the sooner I can accept that and get on board with it, the sooner I can also help to shape it and what that’s gonna look like. And so if we’re gonna be, you know, meeting virtually in the future, then that means I can help to create a safe space for people to do that and to, to connect and engage in a way that is nourishing and is supportive. And that, that’s the things that really excite me is being part of something that’s being built so that I, I can have a hand in part of that conversation. And, and what, what does that look like in the future? And typically in my experience, the, the kids are the ones that are leading the charge on that. And so I’m gonna kind of keep my eye out for where they’re headed and what they’re, what they’re into and do my research. Like everybody else. We, none of us really know, but I’m, I’m learning along with everybody. Just like you
RV (39:21):
Love it. I love it. Well, Tori, that is that’s enlightening and, and just yeah, I mean, that’s how I feel. It’s like, I, I used just for so long, I’ve been, I was always the youngest, the young guy, the young kid, the youngest one in the room and, and, and I look back and go, wow, I’m not that guy anymore. And pretty soon I’m gonna start being the old guy and the oldest person in the room. And and so I just admire how you’re learning and growing and just like, even what you’re saying, looking to the, looking to the young people. And yeah. So thank you for, thank you for your trust. Thanks for the chance of, of an, the opportunity for letting us shape, you know, some of the direction of what you’re up to. We know it’s gonna be huge, huge, even huge than it is . And you know, where do you want people to go to connect with you if they wanna like follow you and say in touch with you and see what you’re up to? Yeah.
TG (40:14):
I’d love to connect with you guys. I’m on social Instagram, TikTok I’m coach Tory Gordon. You can also go to my website, Tory gordon.com. Find out all about me. And we’d love to give you guys access. We’ve been talking about a lot about success and how to get there, but one of the things I really teach a lot about is, is how to make that sustainable long term. And so I’ve got a free training if you guys are in should you can grab that on my site and we’ll, I’m sure we’ll put it in the show notes or something, so you can guys can get access, but to gordon.com is the best way to learn more.
RV (40:48):
I love it. Yeah, we will. We’ll link up. We’ll link up to all of that. We’ll be following you on the TikTok. And maybe looking out for you in the metaverse here at some point hopefully seeing you at a brain builders group event live, we, we got about half our events live in person next year, so that’s good. And we just, no matter what, we’re just know, we’re, we’re, we’re polling for you and praying for you and wish you the best. Thanks so much for sharing your story. Thanks
TG (41:13):
For having me, Rory

Ep 248: Tips for Growing on TikTok with Tori Gordon

RV (00:07):
Hey brand builder, Rory Vaden here. Thank you so much for taking the time to check out this interview as always, it’s our honor to provide it to you for free. And while wanted to let you know there’s no big sales pitch or anything coming at the end. However, if you are someone who is looking to build and monetize your personal brand, we would love to talk to you and get to know you a little bit and hear about some of your dreams and visions and share with you a little bit about what we’re up to to see if we might be a fit. So if you’re interested in a free strategy call, call with someone from our team, we would love to hear from you. You can do that at brand builders, group.com/pod call brand builders, group.com/podcall. We hope to talk to you soon.
RV (00:54):
Oh man, I’m so excited. I cannot, I cannot wait for you to meet Tori Gordon. Tori is someone who has become just one of my favorite people that I met in the last couple years. We met her through brand builders. So she is, she’s a brand builder. She’s one of our clients, but she is extraordinary and she’s been doing huge things long before we ever got a chance to get to know her. In 2021, she actually has been one of tos, top 100 female creators. She has over 800,000 followers on TikTok. She has transitioned that into a fantastic coaching business. Speaking, she’s doing brand deals. There’s a number of things that she’s doing. And her content is really around helping people overcome their suffering and find perspective. And it’s just super inspiring. She is also a trauma informed breathwork facilitator.
RV (01:54):
She’s been featured in outlets like NBC and Fox news and CBSs and Yahoo business insider. And she hosts a podcast called the coachable podcast, which is in the top one and a half percent of all podcasts globally. And it’s fun to see that taking off for her and just so many different things that she’s working on. And obviously she’s an influencer. So she’s, she’s doing brand deals with big companies like can bud and better help, et cetera. And just inspiring a lot of people more than that. We just think she’s cool. And and she’s someone even like so many of our clients, even though she’s a client, it’s like somebody that we look up to and we learn from and just felt like you gotta meet Tori Gordon. And she’s got some awesome stuff to share with us. So anyways, Tori, welcome to the show.
TG (02:41):
Thank you so much for having me that was such a warm intro. And it’s just fun to be here and have this conversation with you. You’re somebody that I very much you and AJ are somebody people that I look up to admire and have learned so much from. So it’s, it’s fun to have this come full circle and get to chat while we record. So I’m excited for the conversation.
RV (03:03):
Yeah. Thank you, buddy. I mean we, we totally believe in you. You’re easy to believe in. I mean you have just built, you know, a, a such a phenomenal and loyal following which we would describe as quickly only because we’ve been around for 20 years. And you know, it’s taken you less time than that, but tell us the story a little bit. I, I mean, I wanna hear, I wanna hear about TikTok and how you’ve built that, but, but before that, tell us a little bit about your personal story. And you, you know, how you got started and how you figured out what, you know, I know that led to how you figured out what type of content you were gonna start producing.
TG (03:48):
Yeah. Yeah. It’s a great place to start. I think for me, I never would’ve anticipated that I would be having this type of conversation or be doing the work that do with clients or online ever if you’d asked me, you know, what, what would my future look like a couple years ago? You know, I’ve, I’ve been doing this full time for less than two and a half years. And before that I was in corporate sales, outside sales, and then I was leading a sales team of about a hundred people in five countries teaching and training them in sales training and onboarding and performance management, and was really kind of growing my, my career in that, that traditional way. And for me, I grew up in Alabama in Tuscaloosa. And so and I grew up in a family of educators and teachers, my mom and dad were both professors at the university level.
TG (04:47):
And so it was really always instilled in me the value of education and learning and being a student of life. And you know, I never really had a clear idea though, growing up of what I wanted to do. And so fell into sales. Like I fell into a lot of things early in my life, looking for other people to tell me who to be and what to do. I got my degree in social work at the time because a friend of mine said, Hey, it’s easy and it’s interesting. Come get this, you know, this degree, it’s an easy a and it was in college that my sister was diagnosed with acute myeloid leukemia. She’s 21 at the time. So I was for the first time experiencing a lot of upheaval in my life and just felt kind of lost at that season about who I was and what I wanted and felt like I needed to stay close to home to cuz of everything that was going on.
TG (05:43):
And over a couple of years, you know, I lost my sister, lost her battle with cancer. We lived through a massive F four tornado that came through our hometown in Tuscaloosa. And then my mom was diagnosed with stage four ovarian cancer and wow, those losses just kind of piled up on each other to the point where after my mom passed away, 10 days after my 27th birthday, I kind of looked at my life and I looked around this beautiful house that I owned at 26 and the money that I had had made and all of the things, all of the boxes that I had checked that I thought were gonna make me happy and I felt alone. I felt empty. And I didn’t know what if I were to have been the one to, to have died genuinely like would I have left behind?
TG (06:39):
Would anybody care? Like, did I make an impact? Did I, did I have a powerful influence on people in a positive way? And obviously my, my mother and sister did in so many ways, not just on my life, but so many other people. And it put, set me on this path of really trying to figure out what my legacy would be. What did I wanna be remembered for and how did I want to leave the world a better place than I found it. And so that required me to do a lot of personal healing and get to know myself in a whole new way and give myself permission to do things I’d never done before. And so my journey really started from a selfish place of, of really trying to, to figure out my life path and purpose and what I needed. And it, it began with starting a podcast just to talk about the things that I was learning personally in my journey and that evolved very quickly. I actually got a call from my corporate boss and her boss right after I launched my podcast back in 2019 saying the first thing they said was we saw that you launched a podcast and were disappointed.
RV (07:45):
Really.
TG (07:46):
Yeah. And they told me, you know, we, this looks like it takes a lot of time. How do we know you’re not, you know, doing this on the side, we want you to be fully committed to this company and nothing else. And it was very clear that they hadn’t listened to the show because they had no idea what I was talking about on it. And they made a lot of accusations. And so it was clear then I think my life started to open up this natural path of saying, if, if you really want to pursue this, you’re gonna have to have a deep commitment and current to do something new, but you need to learn how to trust yourself. And so after that conversation, I put in my two weeks notice and I started on this entrepreneurial journey that I’ve been doing the last two and a half years, but had no idea was one of those jump out of the plane and build the parachute on the way down kind of thing. Wow.
RV (08:37):
I mean, so I, I wanted to share that story for so many reasons cuz it’s just, it’s such a powerful story. And there’s, I think when people think of like, you know, oh, TikTok or they’re a talker, you know, it’s easy to go, oh, it’s somebody who, you know, just wants fame or just, just, you know, waste their life away in video. Or like we have all these really stupid preconceived notions of like what that means. And we, I think specifically for brand builders and our community of mission driven messengers, I mean obviously we of the things that we say all the time is you’re most powerfully positioned to serve the person you once were, your story is such a beautiful, one of going, you’re just using the tools of the day to help people walk through pain that you have already experienced. And I think it’s really important for people to catch that it’s like, it’s not vanity it’s, it’s not, it’s not even entertainment. It is. You’re, you’re just using a vehicle to reach a lot of people to, to try to help those who are going through something like what you’ve been through. I mean, to lose your mom and your, and have a, a tornado that magnitude all within a few years. I mean, that’s crazy. That’s, that’s crazy Tory.
TG (10:03):
Yeah, it was a lot. And I didn’t, you know, mention the three grandparents and the uncle and all the other people who passed in that time. So there was a lot that was going on. And, and to your point, I think a lot of people do we have these, these ideas in our head about what it means to be on social media. It’s funny. I was having a conversation in a discord channel the other day with a venture capitalist who was asking me about TikTok. And I was saying it would be an amazing opportunity for him to, to get global exposure and just to become kind of known as an expert in his space. Even if you’re not, you’re not selling, you know, your services on, on the platform, you’re just letting people know who you are. And it’s funny that no matter where people are in their journey, there’s all of these ideas that people have about, oh, people would think of me, what he said is people immediately think I’m phony.
TG (10:59):
People would think what he is really saying is people would judge me and I’m afraid of that. And the other piece is how many of us don’t think our, our ideal client is out there. And for me it was really, you know, before I was even thinking about selling to an audience or converting people that watch my content into clients or anything like that, it was just, I have a story and a message that I feel like can help somebody. And if I had had somebody, there were people in my life that I listened to that really encouraged me to, to do the work on myself that I needed at the time. And my, my goal was just to be a voice, you know, that would encourage people to to live a life that they were proud of and to, to stop avoiding things that they were, they were trying to run from.
TG (11:52):
And I think, yeah, practically, it’s just a, a smart strategic move because there’s millions upon millions upon millions of people that are on this platform. And the funny thing is when I got on TikTok, it wasn’t really strategic. It TikTok actually reached out to me and they said, Hey, it was in the middle of the pandemic. It was traditionally known as a young kid’s platform with that. A lot of kids were on dancing and doing trends like that. And they noticed a need in the market that there are so many people that are at home that can’t go anywhere and we wanna educate and inspire people through our platform. So can we bring content creators to create educat inspirational content across all these different industries? And I was one of ’em and then I just, for the first 30 to 40 videos was completely doing something I’d never done before, but it, there was this huge permission slip there because no one I knew was on TikTok at the time. So I just was doing something that was a little bit new and I a little bit fresh and ultimately resonated with people. Mm-Hmm
RV (12:59):
so, so let’s do talk about TikTok a a a, a little bit in terms of why do you think you grew so quickly? What can people learn from that? What do they need to know about it? I mean, obviously, yeah. I mean that, it started as a dance thing that there it’s, it’s still very dance driven. Mm-Hmm there. Music is still very musically driven in, in a lot of cases. And so one of the reasons that I love highlighting your story is you, you don’t do anything close to that. You, your, your videos are moving and profound and deep. Like they, they are, they are, I mean, you’re talking about deep issues to trauma and mental health and like these, these kinds of things. And so, you know, you, your, your profile is evidence of proof that it doesn’t have to be a certain type of content. Right. yet I know that you’ve also put a lot of thought and work into it and probably made a mistake here and there. So can you just like walk us through that a little bit?
TG (14:03):
Yeah. I think definitely early on, I was trying to figure out what my voice was gonna be on this platform, because the thing about TikTok, if you’re coming from Instagram or any other social media platform TikTok at the time, really required me to think differently about how I was gonna share my message. And what I knew was my sweet spot was, was really just talking authentically to the camera. And so I started doing that like on my daily walks during COVID, I would have no makeup on, and I would just like be telling, you know, sharing a, a snippet of, of my day or something that you know, had just listened to in a podcast or something that inspired me. And I think the thing about TikTok is it feels really relatable and raw and real, the it’s built in such a way that you can create content on the fly and really document your real life, as opposed to what we had been traditionally kind of conditioned into, which is perfect feeds and perfect photos.
TG (15:03):
And this highlight real. So people were really hungry for authenticity and, and something that genuine. And so regardless of, of the type of content, I think the thing that helped me was just pulling, allowing myself to like put down any mask I wore on any other platform and just show up as me. The thing that really, really does well with, with audiences on TikTok is feeling like they know the person that they’re watching that you’re part of their life, or you’re part of this journey that they’re going on. And, and just telling a story is of one way to really engage an audience and take them on, you know, that journey. But yeah, we talk about deep topics and, and the thing that I’ve realized is that trauma doesn’t discriminate. You know, everybody has experienced something hard in their life and they’re all seasons that, that we need support in and can relate to.
TG (16:07):
And that’s the kind of content that moves people. It’s either funny, it’s emotional in some way, whether it, it causes you to laugh or to cry or to, to feel something think about all the, the videos you’ve seen of dogs or, or the, you know, pet of the week. And it just like makes you wanna cry. But I just talk about, you know, personal stories. And I, that’s what I encourage other people to do is let people get to know you on a deeper level that they might not see on other platforms.
RV (16:39):
So I, I have that question for you. So clearly that has been your strategy on TikTok. That’s worked really, really well for you. The, you know, and, and if y’all, don’t already follow her, if you don’t know. So if you it’s coach, coach Tory, Gordon is her TikTok handle. You’ve got videos of you crying and on camera and stuff. So do you think that other, do you think that that approach doesn’t work on other platforms? You know, just kind of like the raw authenticity thing, do you think it just especially works on TikTok? Do you think that other platforms are migrating that way now, or they’re not did it, did it really just work cuz you were early to the platform mm-hmm like, do you know just like I guess subjectively what’s your sense of that?
TG (17:34):
Well, I’d say since Instagram has rolled out reels a lot of the, the things that you see do really well on TikTok are starting to do well on Instagram several months later. So I think there’s part, I don’t think it’s necessarily only on TikTok, but for those who’ve been on Instagram for a really long time, there has been a way that we’ve been conditioning used to seeing feeds and content there. So TikTok was for me, the first platform that kind of was this permission slip to be more vulnerable on social media. But I think that’s the way it’s trending in general, across platforms. People want realness. They want to see that they’re, we’re tired of that kind of fabricated airbrushed look all the time. And I think that showing up on Instagram different ways, whether it’s through video content or through other types of posts, but ultimately when, what I’ve experienced in trying to build a personal brand is people want to know you and TikTok makes it super easy to just post you can post a large quantity of content so that people can get to know you quickly as opposed to feeling like I can only post one post a day on Instagram.
TG (18:57):
Right? it it’s sort of like taking your Instagram stories and actually posting it. So it doesn’t go away after 24 hours. So those little snippets into your life that you might post on your, your story, people actually can go back and kind of track your history and see the things that you’ve done or the things that you’ve talked about. And, and there gets to be kind of this, this theme of what is this person’s content about? Is it, am I gonna go there and I’m gonna learn something, am I gonna go there gonna be entertained? Am I gonna go there? And I’m gonna be inspired. Am I gonna laugh? And people start to, to go to your profile cuz they’re looking for a certain type of content. And so the thing I love about TikTok is very quickly O the audience will tell you the, the kind of content that they wanna see more of. That’s just how the algorithm is built. There is so that anybody starting out, even if you have zero followers, you can get organic reach and the TikTok audience will tell you if they like it. And then you can do more create more of, of that kind of content, which is invaluable feedback to get
RV (20:14):
Mm-Hmm . And so the do you think that, like, in terms of the mechanics of the platform, the way the videos are edited, the, you know, like you’re talking a lot about the kind of content and sort of the overall feel mm-hmm in terms of the mechanics of what, you know, functions you need to be using, are there certain things that you would recommend for that? Or is it really just about posting consistently staying, you know, kind of like on a topic, let people see you and, and that, or is, is there also some technical things or strategic things that you go actually, like if you’re gonna do it, here’s some things about how you wanna do it. Mm-Hmm functionally speaking.
TG (21:03):
Yeah. Definitely record in the app. That’s make it native to the platform. It’s a something that they really, really like when it comes to the algorithm, they they’ve built the platform in such a way that it’s easy to record right there in the TikTok app, as opposed to recording you know, with your HD camera and then uploading it. And having this perfectly curated video. It’s, it’s almost better if it’s not a lot of my content has been terribly lit, you know, when I’m walking my dog in the middle of the night or sitting in my car before going to meet a girlfriend for dinner, and it’s just like, I just whipped out my phone and I press record record, and I just started talking. So I wouldn’t over it’s it doesn’t need to be overproduced. The other thing I’ll say practically is, is definitely use the, the text overlay feature because the TikTok algorithm picks up on the text.
TG (22:02):
That’s written through the app and those key words show up show the algorithm who to show that piece of content to. So that’s really helpful. So if you have keywords such as success or motivation or mental health or anxiety that that’s gonna dictate kind of who gets to see your piece of content first, and if they like it and they watch it for a significant amount of time, that population gonna grow getting people’s attention early is another thing. So just practically doing something that kind of hooks people in. And, and this is something that’s talked about on a lot of PR platforms, but especially on TikTok, if you’re just a user of the platform, you’re gonna start to notice the types of that really gets your attention. There’s something that happens in the first couple seconds that makes you intrigued. And that can even just be a shift of, of the camera, like the camera angle that you have or a sound that you make.
TG (23:05):
So using the, the video, like for feature within the app, using the text overlay and using keywords and now I think actually it’s becoming sort of SEO driven and keyword driven. So it’s actually, your videos will show up in Google if you search for certain keywords. So it’s similar to what YouTube has done. When you’re thinking about titles or, or kind of click baby word choices, that’s gonna help people to, to click on your your content. So that’s one thing you can be thinking about, but ultimately I say people really like to be taken on a journey. So if you’re thinking about the type of content, think about either something you can teach or steps to a process something like that even, and it can be around just anything and everything. Whether it’s, Hey here, 10, 10 best things to do on a date or the 10 things you don’t wanna do on a date that can be 10 pieces of content right there, and people will come back for more. Do
RV (24:16):
You, how long does it take you to make a TikTok video?
TG (24:20):
I, the be the shorter, the better traditionally so around, I would say five minutes if you’re editing and everything that I would tell people to do 15 seconds or less, less for a TikTok, if you’re just getting started. But there’s a three minute feature now and I sometimes use that and those have done extremely well, two but ultimately I don’t overproduce my content. I really I try to make it as raw as possible because that’s kind of my, my thing and how people know me, the more edited, the more transitions there are. It actually just doesn’t do as well with my audience. They, they know me for just sitting there and talking to the camera spilling my heart out and then you know, letting that be that be it, I don’t really overthink it when I, oh, it comes to producing the content itself.
RV (25:22):
How do you make money from this? Okay. So this, that, this is a question I think that people have, right? Like you know, you start doing this, you’re incorporating it into your rhythm, even if it only takes five minutes. And of course, when you’re first learning how to use the app, like, what are all the buttons do? It’s there’s, you know, learning curve. Sure. The it’s a lot of time, there’s some risk. I mean, you’re putting yourself out there. I mean, I think to the, to, to the fear of to, to the fear of you know, that VC, that person that you were talking about earlier being judged, I think you will be judged. I mean, you will have haters. Like you will have some people who, who show up, but like, so you, you do all of this. How does it turn into money? So talk to us about that.
TG (26:11):
There’s several ways. One is just creating content on the platform. Once you have reached, I believe it’s still 10,000 followers. You can join the creators fund, which will pay you based on the number of views that you get. And you just get paid simply for creating content that gets viewed. That’s one way you can also
RV (26:39):
That’s really cool by the way, cuz that no one else has none of the other platforms have that. I don’t think of just like mm-hmm we just pay you money based on views alone without an ad running on your video or something. Yep.
TG (26:52):
So that’s and that’s available for any and everybody. So that’s one super easy way. The second is if you have a thousand followers, you can start to use their go live feature. That’s one of the best ways to create a real community, having some kind of cadence and consistency around going live so that you’re really building relationships with people and on your lives, people can pay you so they can pay you through coins. They can tip you just on your videos, on your channel in general, there is an option to add tips. And so people will just, if they like your content, they’ll, it’s basically like being able to support an artist or something that you like, but you can support a creator through tips. So
RV (27:37):
It’s like a band, like a band playing at a bar or something and you just like drop the money into the tip chart.
TG (27:44):
Yep. And it will interesting surprise you the other day. I just actually added that feature and I never thought, you know, anybody would, would do it. And then I looked the other day, somebody had tipped me a hundred dollars and I was like, wow, that’s so amazing. So I really felt compelled to reach out to that person and start a relationship with that person. Just thank them for their generosity. But you’ll be surprised. You know, I think especially as content creators, we forget how much of an impact we really do make on people and how one piece of content can be the thing that inspires someone to quit a job or leave a relationship or start a business or ask for help or whatever it it is. And people feel indebted to you when, when you’ve been kind of that voice, that, that was guiding them in a time that they really needed it and they want to give back and they want to say, thank you in the ways that they can.
TG (28:39):
So whether that’s through lives or tips that’s one way that you can monetize it. Then as you grow, there are so many brands that want to collaborate with content creators on TikTok. It really is. Video is the next, the next thing that’s, that’s really being pushed on social media. We moved from, from photos to, to video and now into whatever the metaverse will be in the future . But right now TikTok is, is the best place for, for small businesses to really grow their audience and their business, but also bigger brands to, to connect and collaborate with, with content creators. So there’s lots of ways you can monetize as a person or as a small business. Just by promoting and talking about your product. If you are a small business, I’ve seen so many people just completely blow up to the point that they can’t fill orders because they started to share about the story behind their business, why they started it, you know, the, the struggles that they were facing, the process of, of creating something as unique as, you know, glass blown ornaments or, or metal work or just whatever your uniqueness is, you get to really show that off and people wanna support what, the types of content that they, they enjoy watching.
RV (30:11):
I love that. That’s, I mean, that’s simple, but that’s, that’s, that’s a lot of different things. I mean, you’ve got the creator fund, you have the tip function, you’ve brand deals, and then you have basically just driving your audience to buy your thing, which is kind of the world that we live in mm-hmm at brand builders group is going like build an audience, add value, develop trust, and then show ’em how you can go to the next level. Right. The to that point. So just real quick, how did you find brand builders group? Like how did you find us? Why did you reach out to us? Like tell us a little bit about that, about that journey?
TG (30:51):
Yeah, well, like, like I said there are people in our lives that kind of point the way and show us, I always look to people who are, are doing the thing I wanted be doing. And as many listeners of the show know like Lewis houses is probably one of those people for many of us who we’ve watched and admired and, and listened to. And I remember hearing you on Lewis’s show and seeing all the things that he has built. I, I wanted to work with somebody who could guide me in terms of all of these opportunities. I was kind of naturally getting anyway. I didn’t know where to focus my attention or my time or my energy. And it had felt like in, in a year and a half or two years of doing this, I had been piece it all together and trying to hire somebody for, you know, a website and hire a branding person and hire somebody to help me with ads or whatever it was.
TG (31:55):
And what I really needed was a mentor. What I really needed was somebody who could, who had done it before and then could provide me with the advice and the, the guidance and the, the network that I needed. And when I heard Lewis talk about it, obviously, I, I checked you guys out, got on a call and it was an immediate yes, for me. I didn’t know any other business model or company like brand builders existed before. And I really don’t think that there are many out there that do that, do it at the level that you guys do it. But it was one of those things. I was like, how quickly can I get involved and start to, to get in be part of this community, because I could see the, the value in it from the start. And it’s only allowed me to accelerate the growth that, that I’d already built up into that point and see a longer term vision for how is this gonna be sustainable over time?
RV (32:59):
Yeah. I love that cuz I think that’s one of the, you know, some people we work with are like brand new in their journey and it’s like, help me get clear on all this. Somebody like Lewis is obviously way far down the path and it’s more of like help me sort out my options. But I think with everybody, we’re always trying to play that long game and go like, how do you make this substantive? Not just viral or, you know, a flash, but like a true sustainable career. You know, when meeting people like you and hearing your story is just, it’s like you, you should be, I mean, there’s such a need for, for what you’re doing. And it’s been, I think, you know, aging, a heart and, and, and mine in our teams like has been the first couple years of brand builders group, I think have been a lot about the, the curriculum.
RV (33:48):
You know, we’re just trying to formalize, like you’re saying like how have we built what we’ve built and helped the people that we have and like turning it into a process that I think the next generation of brand builders is really about . And it, I love when I was chatting with you just before we started. And you’re like, I just saw Hillary and I just saw Anton and like I was trying to connect with you. I was like, I missed you when I was in Atlanta. But like I think that that is potentially, you know, gonna be a big, you know, really where the power is going, going forward. So I think it’s awesome that you’re humble enough to wanna be a part of that. And then to see you reaching out to people, Tori, and like building relationships with the other members has been, has been awesome.
TG (34:32):
Yeah. I mean, when I think about investing now, as opposed to when I was initially investing in coaches or, or mentors or programs early on on the motivation has definitely shifted a bit. Now, obviously I care about the curriculum, but I really care about the people that are in, in the community. Who am I networking with? Who, who can I learn from? Who can I support and how can I collaborate with them? That’s really so much value that you guys bring on top of everything else that you teach is just attracting really powerful purpose driven leaders together. And that when you get people like that together, there’s just synergy. And so many idea is that, that form and how can we do this? And and that’s really exciting for me because as a entrepreneur that has built an online business, it can feel super isolating. And like you’re the only one. And you only get to connect with people, you know, via the internet. And that’s great. And sometimes you, you wanna go deeper and that’s what we get to get to do and what I’ve, I’ve had the opportunity to do with other brand builders, which has been really amazing. I love
RV (35:51):
That. Yeah, that’s that, that fill just fills me up and you know, I’ve, I’ve, I’ve gotten no doubt. Like, you know, if I could buy stock in somebody, I would buy stock in Tory Gordon, because it’s just like the trajectory of where you’re going and, and the people that you’re hanging out with inside our community. It’s like, you, you can, you quickly spot the ones who are willing to do the work and willing to spend the time and get to know each other, speaking of the future, just while I have you. I do wanna, I know we got way over time, but, but you mentioned the metaverse, this is something I’ve started paying attention to a little bit. You know, I was late to the game with Facebook. Definitely missed the boat on Instagram, missed the boat on TikTok. Podcasting was the one thing that I kind of caught the wave early, but then we ended up selling the podcast when we sold the company.
RV (36:39):
And so that disappeared, you know? And so mm-hmm, , we haven’t been in position to kind of catch a wave in a while. And one of the things I’m starting to look at is the metaverse and as much as I’m like, oh, I don’t know if I like this. I don’t, I don’t know if I understand it. I can’t help, but go. I feel like this might be something we need to pay attention to less. We missed the boat again. And so just mm-hmm because you’ve been riding that wave out there. Yeah. Like what do you have any thoughts on what’s ahead and what you think’s coming like a little bit about that?
TG (37:14):
Like you, I have my, my hesitations and my fears around what, what the future holds, but I am also, I have learned to follow where the young people go and I’m not I’m I know I’m still young, but the, the kids are kind of on that cusp of what’s coming and what’s new and it’s, they it’s to crypto and it’s the metaverse and it’s NFTs. And I actually heard an interview that you did with, I think Tom bile talking about NFTs on success of successes page on Instagram. And that kind of got my, my wheels turning. And so I started to do my research and we just invested in our first NFT. And metaverse project over the weekend. I’m really excited about because the truth is I, I do think that’s where we are headed. And like you said, it it’s about getting in early and really adopting the, the technology and just accepting that this is kind of where the future is headed.
TG (38:20):
That the sooner I can accept that and get on board with it, the sooner I can also help to shape it and what that’s gonna look like. And so if we’re gonna be, you know, meeting virtually in the future, then that means I can help to create a safe space for people to do that and to, to connect and engage in a way that is nourishing and is supportive. And that, that’s the things that really excite me is being part of something that’s being built so that I, I can have a hand in part of that conversation. And, and what, what does that look like in the future? And typically in my experience, the, the kids are the ones that are leading the charge on that. And so I’m gonna kind of keep my eye out for where they’re headed and what they’re, what they’re into and do my research. Like everybody else. We, none of us really know, but I’m, I’m learning along with everybody. Just like you
RV (39:21):
Love it. I love it. Well, Tori, that is that’s enlightening and, and just yeah, I mean, that’s how I feel. It’s like, I, I used just for so long, I’ve been, I was always the youngest, the young guy, the young kid, the youngest one in the room and, and, and I look back and go, wow, I’m not that guy anymore. And pretty soon I’m gonna start being the old guy and the oldest person in the room. And and so I just admire how you’re learning and growing and just like, even what you’re saying, looking to the, looking to the young people. And yeah. So thank you for, thank you for your trust. Thanks for the chance of, of an, the opportunity for letting us shape, you know, some of the direction of what you’re up to. We know it’s gonna be huge, huge, even huge than it is . And you know, where do you want people to go to connect with you if they wanna like follow you and say in touch with you and see what you’re up to? Yeah.
TG (40:14):
I’d love to connect with you guys. I’m on social Instagram, TikTok I’m coach Tory Gordon. You can also go to my website, Tory gordon.com. Find out all about me. And we’d love to give you guys access. We’ve been talking about a lot about success and how to get there, but one of the things I really teach a lot about is, is how to make that sustainable long term. And so I’ve got a free training if you guys are in should you can grab that on my site and we’ll, I’m sure we’ll put it in the show notes or something, so you can guys can get access, but to gordon.com is the best way to learn more.
RV (40:48):
I love it. Yeah, we will. We’ll link up. We’ll link up to all of that. We’ll be following you on the TikTok. And maybe looking out for you in the metaverse here at some point hopefully seeing you at a brain builders group event live, we, we got about half our events live in person next year, so that’s good. And we just, no matter what, we’re just know, we’re, we’re, we’re polling for you and praying for you and wish you the best. Thanks so much for sharing your story. Thanks
TG (41:13):
For having me, Rory

Ep 246: How to Get People to Pay Attention with Peter Sheahan

RV (00:07):
Hey brand builder Rory Vaden here. Thank you so much for taking the time to check out this interview as always, it’s our honor to provide it to you for free and wanted to let you know there’s no big sales pitch or anything coming, uh, at the end. However, if you are someone who is looking to build and monetize your personal brand, we would love to talk to you and get to know you a little bit and hear about some of your dreams and visions and share with you a little bit about what we’re up to to see if we might be a fit. So if you’re interested in a free strategy call we’ll someone from our team, we would love to hear from you. You can do that at brand builders, group.com/pod call brand builders, group.com/podcall. We hope to talk to you soon.
RV (00:53):
So I am over the top excited to introduce to you someone who I legitimately considered to be one of the smartest people on the planet. Um, in fact, if I were running a very large corporation, or if I had a good friend that was like a fortune 500 executive and they were looking for consulting advice, leadership, I would refer them to Peter Sheahan. He is, uh, when, by the time he was 30 years old, he built not one, but two multimillion dollar companies. He has spoken, uh, more than 2,500 times in 40 plus countries around the globe. And I believe might be the, I think only him and I are two people that joined the professional speakers hall of fame in our thirties. Um, and he’s a hall of fame speaker. He, his client list is, I mean is crazy apple Chick-fil-A at and T.
RV (01:51):
Um, and he’s just absolutely brilliant. I I’ve known him from the speakers world for a while. Um, and the real story here is if you’re a brand builders group member, like one of our clients, or if you’ve ever heard me on someone else’s podcast, you know, that we teach this framework called Sheahan’s Wall and it is named after Peter Shehan. Now he didn’t name it after himself. We named it after him. I saw him speak one time randomly on this. He drew this diagram and then we lost touch. Um, and we just recently reconnected and he told me, he’s like, mate, you know, I wrote a book on the topic of this diagram, which we call Shehan wall. The book is called making it happen. Um, it’s all about turning good ideas into great results. And so I was like, I dude, you gotta come on the podcast, like you’re a celebrity our people are gonna go nuts. So anyways, with all that, welcome to the show, Peter,
PS (02:53):
Hey, SwRI you wanna know my side of that story by the way, tell me, because I got like three random texts one day, all in, probably in this face of a week, actually going, Hey, I heard this, you know, R Vaden guy get interviewed on this podcast. He was talking about you and Sheahan’s wall. And I’m like, what do you mean Sheen’s wall? I’d never heard of this thing. And I’m like, I’m just gonna have to call R and find out what the heck’s going on. And so, um, you know, I often make this joke that I’m more famous for being in other people’s work than I am for my own work. And so I, you know, PR proud to be associated with your brand mate.
RV (03:22):
Well, dude, I, I, um, thank you for that. And, and I it’s been, it’s been awesome to have this book and I wanna talk to you about the original concepts of it and, and going, going through the book, I realized there was something about the way that you presented it to me, where I, I feel like I heard it a little bit different than what you’ve been taught, what you actually, the way you teach it in the actual book. And so I was like, let’s talk about it. Yeah. Um, now, so can you describe what, uh, so for those, the people who don’t know what we’re talking about, if they’ve never heard me or seen, seen Shehan wall, or if they’ve never read your book, can you, can you explain what the diagram is? What it represents? Like how did you put it together originally?
PS (04:06):
Yeah, look, here’s the biggest challenge. Most people who are trying to get a business moving and off the ground are struggling to get the attention of the audience. They most need to influence. Now in my world, that’s a very small group of people who run very large companies in your world. It’s thought leaders and people with a message who are looking to build out their personal brand, you know, insert audience here. But none of those people wake up on any given day, trying to necessarily go looking for you or trying to necessarily, you know, bring attention to your value proposition. You are offer your services. You are literally to interrupt them or get on their radar. Um, and you, and about 4 million other people on any given day. Right? And so the underlying concept of the model that underpin that book is that you are better off being very, very tight and targeted in what you do.
PS (04:58):
And the value proposition you are bringing forward to that market to grab their attention before you try and sell them everything you could possibly do. Right? So, you know, when, think about when you and I got started in our business as well, there were probably 15 things we thought we could do for our clients, maybe 15 things we thought we could do for our members, but trying to sell ’em all 15 on the first date is not a great idea, right? You’re better off picking the one that’s most likely to grab their attention and, and get super, super targeted on that one thing. And the more targeted you get, the better chance you’ve got a piercing, what I would call the mental barrier or the attention barrier. Once you’ve done a piece of work, which
RV (05:37):
Is now formerly what she is named as she heads all, is she
PS (05:40):
Okay? So you get through, she, you get through she well. So I struggle to use my name in the third person, if that’s all right with you, right? So we get through the proverbial, she, and wall. But once you have that trust, there’s almost no limit to what they might allow you to do and the services you might bring. Right? Mm-hmm . And so in my case, you know, I might do a speech and do a really good job of that at a corporate retreat or an executive offsite. And then the CEO will say to me, Hey, we really need help around the topic you talked about. Then I can get into a conversation about selling them consulting. And I mean, I’ve literally turned single speeches into, you know, 50, 60 million, the revenue opportunities over 10 years, right. That all started with one speech. But if I had gone in and just tried to sell the 50 million opportunity, I would never have got, I wouldn’t even got the meeting, let alone the opportunity.
PS (06:28):
Right? And so the point being, here’s a simple metaphor. Let’s say you meet your life partner, the person you wanna make your life partner at a bar, you don’t go up to him or her and ask them to marry you in that first interaction. You go up and say, Hey, do you mind if I buy you a drink or something, you know, something small and easy to say yes to that’s the real underlying premise. Um, there are other pieces to the, to the model, you know, this idea that mental energy is as scarce currency as time. And we can get into some of those as well. But the core idea is that no one got outta bed this morning, thinking about you, you’re trying to get on their mental menu in order to do that. You’re better off being tight, not broad. And then once you have the relationship expand from there. So
RV (07:10):
Yeah, I mean, that’s so good. And, and the visual for those of you that, you know, are, you’re trying to picture this. It’s, it’s sort of like, I guess triangle it, uh, I mean, we kind of think of it as like, you know, it starts broad and then you go narrow and then that’s, that’s how you break through the wall versus bouncing off the wall is being narrow. And then as you’re narrow, you break through the wall and then once you’re on the other side of that wall, then you can expand. So to zero in on the concept a little bit here, what is the wall?Is, is it, is it mental? Is it attention? Is that what the, is that what the wall is? Is, is that what is representative of the line that
PS (07:56):
Separates? I’d primarily say it’s attention and attention can get expressed in time. Attention could get expressed in my level of engagement. Attention could be expressed in the level of research I might be prepared to do about you before I meet you, anything where I’m gonna invest something I have as a currency into understanding you and what you want to do. That’s what’s on the other side, meaning like once you have my attention, I will express it in any of those currencies. Right. And, and here’s the deal like before this podcast, or I had eight back to back calls. I mean, one hour after another, after another, I didn’t have time to be pitched a new idea. I’m not gonna read spam on any given day. And I sure say, I’m not gonna sort of listen to someone that says, Hey, I can do anyone of 4,500 things for you, which of the 4,500 would you like?
PS (08:42):
But if you are targeting me on the right day with the right problem in a very clear value proposition, I might actually give you the time of day. I might say, you know what? I really am struggling with that. Um, let’s take 15 minutes and now you ha now you’re on the other side of my wall, right? You are on the other side of my, you know, you’ve, you’ve broken through the attention barrier. Yeah. And what you do with those five or six minutes is up to you. And I know, or you teach a lot of your members how to position themselves, understand their brand, what the bits about them that are unique. I know you talk to a lot of about how do you converse and engage in a way that’s influential. They’re all super important skills once you’re through the wall. The bit that comes before that, which I know you also teach around positioning is, you know, don’t be kind of so abstract and broad that no one really knows what you do with the value you’re gonna bring, or you never get my attention
RV (09:32):
Uhhuh . And I wanna, I wanna, I do wanna talk about that, cuz I do feel like that’s the, like the, obviously the core of this and it’s, it’s a, it’s amazing to me, you know, I heard you speak, it was at an NSA event that I, I had heard you speak and it was so powerful that it stuck with me and you were drawing, you were drawing it. You probably remember on like a little digital pad. And it was just, you know, it was like a line with two triangles. And I was like, that is so powerful. Um, is it is trust. What is on the other side of the wall? You mentioned that word trust earlier, you know, and like in this microcosm of an example, you go, okay, if you get my intention, you’re on the other side of the wall and you might have like five minutes or 15 minutes, which represents kind of how that triangle builds on the other side, it’s you, it starts, you’re kind of there, but you only, you still only have a little bit of time. Is that, would you think of that side as in general, as sort of like trust,
PS (10:26):
I, I would say trust builds as you move. So let’s assume this is on a left to right model in the walls, in the middle. Um, as you move to the right of the model, you’re at a higher and higher level trust, cause you’ve likely done more and more things together. And if you’ve done them well, you’ve created more and more value over time. But when you are just through the wall, it’s not about trust. It’s about opportunity. You have got for the first time, an opportunity to hook that person’s interest to get them interested in what you might want to do. Next. It could be to attend an event. It could be to join a membership year. It could be to, to do corporate consulting. Like it depends on what you sell. It might be to try your restaurant out, you know? Um, and so no, I would say immediately on the other side of the wall is just an opportunity and it’s probably a very fleeting and short opportunity. So you better know how to position your value in that moment. You better make that interaction memorable. You be incredibly clear what you’re gonna do for that person, that buyer or else you, you’re never gonna get to a place of trust. So trust is further out in my opinion, uh, in terms of on the right side of that wall. Gotcha.
RV (11:31):
Okay. And I, I think, you know, one of the thing that is like the way that you kind of describe it here is in a, is in a singular instance, sort of like a singular encounter with an individual person. We’ve always thought it, we’ve thought we’ve thought about it as more general. Like you, nobody knows who you are. And then breaking through the wall is like, you know, you reach this point of like mass critical mass where it’s like, okay, now you have enough credibility. So it, it, what I hear you saying is it’s like it applies in both the granular and at the high level, um,
PS (12:13):
The way you’re describing it, RS spot on, like I could do my whole career. I could literally map my career on that model. Right? Like I started going into high schools and doing these speeches to kids on how to transition from school to work. I originally hit a brick wall where there was no, no one was willing to gimme a chance. No one was gonna gimme an opportunity. And then I heard about this thing called school to work funding where public schools were given X dollars a year to teach their kids about alternative career paths. And so I massively narrowed the offer of what I was trying to bring into schools, to target school, to work. I used all the buzzword and all the language that were in the funding application schools needed to be allowed to spend the money this, and then I’d start calling a careers advisor.
PS (12:56):
And instead of saying, Hey, do you want motivational speaker in your school? I’d say I have five specific offerings that match the school to work curriculum and framework. Um, and you know, here is what they look like. We’ll do it during a career period. We’ll do it for year 10. And so it’s like so tight, what the offer is now that’s a single interaction, right. But I, you know, after six months had got like six of those after another six months, I had 180, I did 485 speeches in schools in my second year as a public speaker. Right. And so now all of a sudden I could go back to those same buyers and go, Hey, you know, I, I know I was doing this school to work stuff, but I have this whole motivational thing as well. I have these like what we would call HSC Australia might call the S SATs here S a T prep work.
PS (13:40):
And, you know, I would start having kids join an ongoing course. And all of a sudden I’m doing all these other things that I wasn’t able to do before I had credibility and a track record. Now I could do the same model if I step out again, which is the next. So I wrote three books for that market. And then I was writing a book on what we would call the millennials or generation. Y was the, the frame I used back in the day. And I went to my publisher and my publisher was like, well, you know, that’s a, that’s a small market. And I think you should write it on all four generations, cuz there’ll be a much bigger addressable market there. And I’m like, but I don’t know anything about baby boomers or the silent generation or gen X. I know these younger people gen, why are these millennials, let me get really targeted and fo so I did the exact same process.
PS (14:28):
Again, got really tied in my value proposition and what I, what I, and, and by the way, stayed true to my actual expertise, right? Mm-hmm like I was talking about something I truly knew. Now you fast forward five years. And I wasn’t doing a single speech on gen Y and millennials. I was doing speeches on disruption and the impact that had on business models and corporate culture, because what the millennial whole millennial thing was about was not about young people. It was about the fact that there’s a whole new way of interacting with brands of understanding business and from paid media to earn media from you. Tell me what your product’s about to actually I own your brand through the way I interact with it. Like all that was what the millennial change represented, but I couldn’t go, I, after that market, I was 25, 26 years old, you know? So I wrote a book about a really targeted thing. It was a very good book. It sold phenomenally around the world. And with that opportunity I built about
RV (15:21):
Disruption.
PS (15:23):
Um, no, the book was essentially the gen Y book, the millennial book. Oh, you’re
RV (15:26):
Talking about, oh, you’re still
PS (15:27):
Okay. I’m still in the same thing. Yeah. Yeah. And what I was able to that was build multiple companies off the back of that one piece of work, you know? And so yes, it’s an instance, but I actually think I could define my whole career actually using that same model. So
RV (15:44):
What’s fascinating about that is, is, uh, the way I hear you describing it now is not how I’ve actually ever thought about it. Like, um, there’s a, there’s an expression. You probably heard this, we use this in the us get your foot in the door. Yeah. Um, what as I hear you describing that now, like with a company or in an industry, it’s almost like, Hey, I’m using this to kind of get a foot in the door, which is interesting. Cuz visually it repre, it looks like a wedge almost like you would like kind of wedge into something and then once you’re in, then it’s like, okay, now more opens up inside of that company or inside of that industry to do other ancillary, other ancillary work,
PS (16:25):
All, all Rory inside of the entire marketplace, cuz your reputation is established. Yeah.
RV (16:29):
And that’s how I, and that’s how I always processed. It was more like your overall reputation is no one knows who you are to now everybody knows who you are and they want you. And so your fee, your fee goes
PS (16:41):
Up and, and the number of things that you can sell goes up as well.
RV (16:46):
Yes. Um, totally. So I get so, so I, I,
PS (16:50):
We’re just, we’re just talking about it at multiple levels and it’s the same metaphor and the same model for a one-on-one interaction. It’s the same model for a client relationship as it is for the entire trajectory of your personal brand, your co you know, your company brand, depending on what you’re representing and the reputation you now have in the marketplace. Right. And so you’re right. You get it right. Your fee goes up, but here’s what happens to most people worry, they crash against the wall and never get known by anyone. And they’re scrambling and hustling for scraps from people who figured it out, you know? And so you are talking about the right way. It just exists on multiple levels.
RV (17:24):
Yeah. And I think the, you know, what’s, what’s interesting is you, it’s like you’re playing the big game of your reputation always. Yep. But even, you know, you have some number of relationships where you’re already through the wall. There’s some number of people who trust you, there’s other people who’ve never heard of you. And it’s kind of like, you’re, you’re at the beginning of that model kind of like working your way in the door, almost like you could think of content in this way of like somebody is paying you whatever $20,000 a month for a retainer, because you’re on the other side of the wall, someone else is just reading your very first tweet for the first time. And it’s 144 characters and they go, Ooh, I like that tweet. Let me go read their blog post. And now they read a blog post and then they go, oh, let me subscribe to their newsletter.
RV (18:08):
Ah, show up for their one hour webinar and then da, da, da kinda. So it’s like each individual person. So, so here’s the, here is the thing that everybody struggles with. How do I find my thing? Like, you know, the, the whole concept, which is so powerful and brilliant is go be known for one thing. Uh, you, you you’ve described it here as being tight, like be extremely tight in your offer. How do you know which thing to do? Like if you can talk about leadership and you can talk about sales, like, what do you think? How
PS (18:47):
Do you know? Well, this is gonna rub some people the wrong way mate, but you and I have spent our lives surrounded by people who wanna make up the answer to that question. Right? As opposed to the answer should be pretty clear. What are you actually world class at? What are you an expert in where you can bring some unique contribution that other people can’t bring? Where are you capable of creating the most value for another human being? That’s where I would start that conversation. Don’t start that conversation with, well, what do other people want? And then let me see if I can pretend to be an expert in that space or, you know, you can do, you can do that, but it’s gonna be a long journey as you start to build capability. Right. It’ll be like, it’ll be like you reading a survey. Right. Now’s wow. The number one thing on fortune 500 CEO’s mind is alignment of their executive team to accelerate transformation. And you’re be like, right, I’m gonna go sell that. Well, okay. I think speakers
RV (19:41):
Do that all the time, all the time,
PS (19:43):
But you know, the time then, then they go mono or mono with me or Pete Fuda or McKinsey and they get their lunch eaten. In fact, they don’t even get it out of the conversation cuz they don’t have real expertise in that space. Right. And so I would start from a place of authenticity, really like a place of genuine credibility. I have this unique thing, right? So for me, if I go back to my example, I shared for me, it was, I knew young people. I had 300,000 kids on a database. I was able to survey them about their values. What cared about the careers. They’re interested in, why they weren’t interested in others, what they thought of alternative career paths and not going to college. So when I write a book on the millennials, which was basically the first book in the world from a business perspective on the topic, it comes from a place of deep research and deep credibility.
PS (20:27):
Now it just so happened that the market really needed the insight as well. So you do want to give that consideration, right? Which is all right, what are my authentic, true expertise and skill sets. And then where do they meet a need in the market? That’s not being satisfied or not being satisfied in the way I think I can meet that need. And you find the overlap between those two things and now you’ve got magic, right? Better, still find the overlap between those two things and what you really love to do. And now you live in the dream life. I can’t remember. What’s the name of that Japanese model? They’ve got a fourth circle. It, I can’t remember. There’s there’s like ancient models for understanding what we’re talking about right now, guy.
RV (21:06):
Yeah. I think it’s got, I think it’s Ika guy or something. Something like that. Yeah.
PS (21:08):
Yeah. In other words, we didn’t make this up, but um, funny that we stumbled on something that’s, you know, been, uh, in philosophy for thousands of years.
RV (21:17):
So to that, to that question, how did you come up with this model? Like, you know, um, and, and, and what you, what you, what you call it is just the making it, is it, is it the making it happen? Master model? Is that, I mean, that’s how you refer to,
PS (21:32):
I, I don’t know what I call it. I’d have to go back to the book or that was a few years ago, mate. Um, do you know, the last time I spoke about this model was the speech you went to in 2009.
RV (21:41):
It’s so funny. What year was it? What year was that?
PS (21:45):
Oh, it’s gotta be oh, nine, two and 10. Something like that.
RV (21:49):
Oh my gosh. That’s so funny. Yeah. I mean, it was a long time ago and I never, that’s why I never knew you had a book. Like I never, I never heard you talk about it ever again. I had never, I never heard it anywhere else again, but
PS (22:00):
It was just, you know what, there’s a lesson. There’s a lesson in that though. Right? So all my market momentum is with corporation. Right? I wrote this book cuz people were banging my door down on a daily basis going, how did you get breakthrough? What, you know, teach me how to do what you did. And I was like, you know what, I’m gonna write it in a book. This is, this was my recipe. And so as for how I came up with it, I’m sure it, the origin of it is not entirely original. Like it doesn’t seem to me like a ground break idea to teach people, to get tight and focused in what they take to market. So they’re easy to, so not only is it easy to grab attention, but you can be better at it. Right? I’m in the middle of a strategy project right now.
PS (22:39):
And I’m telling you, the business partners are so far on, they are on either sides of the spectrum, right? Like wanting to do everything for everyone, for the rest of humanity. And it’s like, good luck. Like that’s not gonna work. So the, the, the, the underlying disciplines of this, of making it happen are really sound in corporate strategy as well as personal brand strategy. Um, and so there, but the there’s a lesson in the fact that I don’t talk about it. And that’s the, that’s not my space. That’s not where I play. And you know what? I bet you, if you and I sat down and had a beer, we could find 20 other things that you could be world class at on top of what you do now and are already world class at, you could totally build your, you, you could totally build businesses in all these other areas.
PS (23:21):
The problem is you end up spreading, not just your time and energy so thin, but all of a sudden you confuse the market. Like they don’t know what your reputation is for. And so you don’t wanna go too wide. Now, the beautiful thing is once you have a reputation and you have a critical mass, you can go much wider than you started that process with, but not so wide that all of a sudden people dunno what you stand for or what you do. And so I made a really deliberate decision to not build my brand and reputation around making it happen, despite it being a pretty successful book, by the way, um, actually in some countries, not in all in a couple countries, not in most is probably more accurate, um, because I wasn’t gonna speak on it. I didn’t wanna do public seminars. I didn’t want to be selling to individuals. I, I like single buyers that write really big checks. That’s just my preference. I don’t wanna be known by that many people. There’s only about a thousand people in the world that I actually need to know who I am not a hundred thousand or AME, you know? And so it was just not, it was almost an anomaly in my body of work actually.
RV (24:22):
Mm-hmm yeah. Mean, uh, you know, you describe it as discipline. I mean, that was, you know, my first book take the stairs was really about discipline in general. And the, you know, one of the things that we said in the take the stairs book was if you have diluted focus, you get diluted results. We never thought we would shift into personal branding. It was only when we exited our company a few years ago, and then it was like, okay, well, crap, we can’t do sales anymore. We’ve done sales our whole life. What are we gonna do? Like, oh, I guess we’ll do personal branding. We know something about that. And then it was like, the, this, this idea is the same discipline is of going. I’m gonna narrow my message. And what I, what I think is really true. And, and this is probably why you and I, I haven’t touched paths is because we serve different markets. Like you’re saying you want one person who, uh, who writes really big checks. We literally think about it, the opposite. We literally go, we want a whole bunch of people who can write a small, have a small monthly payment, right? Like it is, is totally, totally different. But what I hear in that is that narrowing the market of who you serve is also a part of this in addition to narrowing how you serve them or what you do for them.
PS (25:43):
Yeah. Let’s talk, let’s break it down. Right. I think the real key to narrow first is clearly articulating the value to whomever and whatever market you wanna serve. Right. Like to not be so all over the place with that, that people don’t really get it. You know, like Roy, I don’t really understand what you mean by personal branding. What is that actually gonna do for me? Like, you don’t want that response to your positioning or to your content or to the way people refer you. You want people to refer you, like, I’m gonna put you in touch with my buddy. Rory has a monthly membership. And if you want to accelerate the time to profitability and high revenue on the back of your personal brand and reputation, he’s the guy to talk to. That’s, we’re gonna edit that.
RV (26:26):
We’re gonna edit that clip and put it on the website, make that a testimony. Yeah. The testimonial.
PS (26:30):
But literally it goes all the way down to referral, like how I set you up, determines how successful your conversion would be. Right. Mm-hmm what you don’t want me to say is, Hey, let me introduce my buddy to R I don’t know if it can help you, but I dunno, you guys sort of sound like you want the same thing. Let me make the introduction. That’s the worst introduction in history, right? Like now, once you are clear on the value, then you can start asking yourself the question, well, who do I wanna surf? Right. Um, in my case, it is senior executives and it’s only really senior executives. Right? I get speaking offers all the time to do all hands events. And most of the time I’m like, you know what, I’m probably not your guy. You need someone who’s way more gen like got way more appeal and charisma, and you know, is better at that audience.
PS (27:11):
And I’ll refer them to one of three or four people that I know and trust, you know? And so I am narrow on the audience. And then the second, third question is, and now which you raised, how do I wanna serve them? I don’t do one on one coaching for executives. It doesn’t doesn’t create enough change in my opinion. Right? Not only that there’s thousands of executive coaches. And so they’re driving the price down. I wanna do something way more difficult, which is to drive alignment at a team level, much harder to do than get an executive to realize they’re showing up like a, you know, uh, not person am I allowed to swear
RV (27:47):
In your podcast? You know? I mean, you can.
PS (27:48):
Yeah. But, and so there’s three, but there’s three layers of the clarification process. One is what is the value? I wanna bring two, who do I wanna bring it to? And then three, what’s the mode. Well, what’s the business model that I want with that. And then the fourth is probably what is a of modality, right? So what’s the value who do I wanna serve? What’s the business model. And then what’s the modality. Now the business model is the question. People almost never ask. Right? But you just raise it. You said, you know what? I really want a large number of people writing a, a, a really reasonably priced check for the amount of value they get coming to together that forms a community that I’m a part of, not just leading where it’s self perpetuating a subscription model. I don’t have to start from zero every three months. Like that’s a beautiful business model.
RV (28:36):
Yeah. It’s interesting. We, you know, when we started brand builders group, we actually said in this two, two, as of right now, we’re three years in, we want a thousand me, we want a thousand people who we can, who, who will invest a thousand dollars a month, which would be about, you know, it’s a million dollars a month and that’s a business where we’ve operated a business of that size before. And we are just like, not only we did, we narrow who we wanted to serve. We, we know exactly how many of them we want. Right. We only on a thousand of these people. Um, and yeah, the business model is like, we realize one-on-one coaching is where we can really differentiate. And it’s, it’s interesting to just, even as you talk to go, like, man, if, if, if a, if a, if a, if a senior executive called me and was like, Hey, Roy, I want you to be my coach. I would, I would literally tell them, not your guy like that. If you wanna write your book, I’m your, I mean, I’m your freaking guy. Like, uh, you, you wanna turn your career into a, a, a speaker. You wanna build your following, whatever I’m like. Yeah. But, but if they’re like, Hey, I, I want you to just talk to me one on one
PS (29:41):
About how to structure my company, blah, blah. I’m like, oh my gosh. I’m not your guy. Yeah. And knowing that’s great, by the way, the great irony of this is I, as you know, I, uh, teamed up with Josh ner, Seth Madison, Ryan ESS. And we are now basically building a model, you know, not, not dissimilar to the brand builders model, but with a more targeted audience, specifically, people that wanna speak. Yeah. You know, and, and we, I mean, we have all, we have all the distribution relationships, we know all the buyers, we know what they care about. We can take someone from a 10 year journey and make it two years, you know, and it’s a different model. Now. It’s not a business that I, that, you know, I’m not doing all the oneone coaching or whatever. I still to executives and do that work, you know?
PS (30:23):
And so in some ways I’m gonna have to, I’m gonna be calling you in a few months ago. Tell me exactly how you did that thing at brand builders. Right. Cause I’m used to one, you know, I’m used to large checks. Yeah. Right. Single buyer, complex buying process, sometimes a long buying process, but one large check. And, you know, literally we used to set have this goal, um, which was alright, get your first thousand dollar check, get your first $10,000 check, get your first million dollar check, get your first $10 million check. And the largest single contract over Sams about 57 million. And I was like, right. That’s not bad for one client. You know, that’s a good deal. You know, now that was over, like that was delivery of that work was over a series of three to four years. Right? Like it wasn’t, it wasn’t all in one, three month period, but it feels pretty good to get a check that big, you know, or to get a commitment that big as it doesn’t quite work like that you get the check over time.
PS (31:15):
But the point I’m getting at is that’s a totally different business. You know, for me, it was maximizing the size of the check for you. It was max, the number of people who’d write the check totally different path. Yep. But think about this, Roy and this is, I think is the takeout for your, for your listeners, right? The clearer you are on these answers, the value you bring, who you bring it to the business model, which is the bit we’re talking about now in the modality, you know, things like coaching podcast, that’s a modality in my mind, right? Yep. Totally. The clear you are on those top three things and, and, and the fourth as well, but particularly the top three, the easier decision making gets like, it’s not hard to say, no, that’s not my client. Or, you know, you sit and you listen to this podcast and you’re like, man, you know, Pete had those three great ideas.
PS (32:00):
They might be dumb ideas for you because they don’t match the value you wanna bring. They don’t match a business model. You’re building. Then that’s the audience you wanna serve. Like in my experiences, no such thing as a good idea and a bad idea in our, like in this kind of learning space, there are aligned ideas and misaligned ideas. And that’s how I assess them. Is this a aligned idea for what I’m trying to create? I think what the, one of the most beautiful about the way you serve the, the market made is that you help people get clear and the clearer they get, the easier will be to make decisions. And by the way, the easier will be to get through the metaphorical wall. Right. You all over the map as well. No, I still can’t. Can’t do it in the third person, but yeah.
RV (32:41):
Okay. So, all right. So honest, honest, open thing here. I, I really want your, your wisdom on this. So okay. In our, in our former life, we did one-on-one sales coaching. It was super clear, right? We coach sales people, you know, B to C salespeople, real estate, financial advisors, how to sell. We scaled that was straightforward. Then brand builders group starts. We do personal brand strategy. So we do, you know, we, we coach experts, primarily speakers, authors, coaches, consultants, and then entrepreneurs like professional services, still how to build their personal brand brand builders group, super clear growing. What I personally am struggling with at this very one thing I’m struggling with at this precise moment is we have the Rory Vaden who built his career on self-discipline overcoming procrastination. And that was take the stairs. And then my Ted talk, how to multiply time, which got a couple million views.
RV (33:45):
That was how I built my career as a speaker. Then we built a company on sales coaching, and now we have brand builders group during personal brand strategy. And I’m struggling a little bit with how to tell the whole story, not with what brand builders group to us that’s straight and narrow, but what does Roy Vaden do? And I get calls for speeches, right? Not for, you know, Hey, can you come talk on something random, but it’s more like I saw your Ted talk. Will you come speak on this? But there it’s to an audience that’s not personal brands, which is what our core business, this is focused on now. And so some of that, you know, I’m trying to be like, you know, where does my personal brand sit at this point? And where am I at on Shehan wall? Cuz to, to the point you were talking about earlier about how it works on a granular level, like for an individual relationship.
RV (34:36):
And then also like at an industry or reputation level, we’ve also started to describe it really it’s a series of walls at a high level. So you, you know, you dominate your local market, then your, your, you know, your regional market, national whatever. And so I’m trying to wrestle a little bit with like, what is the story of Rory vain.com at this point in my life? Should I just go, all I care about is personal branding, ignore everything that I’ve done. Just let it go. Or, or is there some way that it all sits, sits together and I’m, I’m genuinely interested in, in uh, free consulting
PS (35:12):
Are we still on the podcast or did you just get 30 grand the coaching for, uh, nothing. Um, I have very two very strong opinions, especially. I agree that, that I didn’t think of it as multiple walls, I think, but the more the wall keeps moving, right? Like you, you’re always looking to get to the next level, the next space. And in some ways, you know, you’re the flavor of the month at one point and then people have had you, they know you they’ve moved on to the next flavor and you have to find a new way to get back on their mental menu. Right. Um, here’s my first piece of advice. Don’t try and include every part of everything you’ve done in your story. People don’t care. Okay. Like I, I, I own a SAS company called educator impact it’s suicide prevention and wellbeing tracking for kids in schools.
PS (35:51):
It also does 360 degree evaluation of teachers. It’s an incredibly successful and business and you’ve never heard me talk about that once. And I’m sure in your researcher didn’t come up. I don’t need it to be part of my story. It just confuses the buyer. I don’t need to confuse the buyer. Right? Like at our peak, we would’ve 40,000 workshops a year before. In fact, this isn’t in the company I sold to Ernston young for 1.2 million people around the world. And it never once was in my buyer because it was about community investment strategy and helping to elevate the reputations of companies in the market. But that’s not what Peter sheen was spending his personal time on. I just haven’t own that company cuz long, long story. But um, it came out of a, a client delivery. I had, I knew how to solve the problem.
PS (36:33):
I built a company around that. I don’t need to confuse my brand positioning with all of that material. Does that make sense? That’s I am great. It’s like, so the, the answer to the question, Rory, the, the easiest answer to the question is what do you want to be talking about? right. Like where do you wanna spend your time? What’s your highest order contribution. What’s the biggest impact you have and then which bits of your story lend credibility to that? You’re the, you are the only one who will be worried about how it all stitches together. Everyone else is just, Hey, I’ve got a problem. I saw your Ted talk and I’ve got 35 grand, 40 grand where you come and do a speech like don’t overcomplicate it. My advice to you, however, is the more aligned RO vaden.com is to brand builders. The, the less spread your personal energy will be.
PS (37:24):
Right? And so, you know, here’s the biggest mistake speakers make in terms of building a company, right? They look at their speaking fee, let’s use easy numbers. Let’s say you’re speaking fees, 15 grand, right? They tell themselves the story, they get paid thousand a day or $15,000 an hour, but they don’t. Cause they only get 50 speeches a year or a hundred of their lucky. And really they’re working like as a low price lawyer at about 500 bucks an hour. You know, you’re not anywhere near as valuable as you think you are. Right. It’s just that your modality is a short burst for a high fee and you don’t get a lot of deliveries. Right. And so I would look back and go, where is the most value gonna get created? Is it in R Vaden doing speeches or is it in R Vaden building the message of brand builders and increasing the subscription model?
PS (38:12):
Because I can tell you now the enterprise value of brand builders is gonna be way substantially higher that the enterprise value of R vaden.com is here’s the, here’s the reason that matters. One, once it gets critical, mass build starts building itself. And it’s less about your personal exertion two, if you ever sold it, not that, that’s what you’re saying. You want to do. You only pay capital gains on that rather than personal income tax. So immediately you’re 25% better off. And when someone buys it, they’ll give you a multiple on future, on your discounted future cash, which means they might buy 13 years of profit off the table at half the tax rate that you pay. Right? Like now I’m not saying that’s what you should do, but there’s, there is a value decision to be made. And so I would start with, what do you want to talk about? I would then put it through the filter of, is this gonna support what I’m really trying to build here? And what’s more important to me. And then I would say your answer shakes out of that and the closer and more aligned, those two things are the more leverage you got get.
RV (39:08):
Yeah, well, and basically what’s happened is for three and a half years, I have just ignored Rory vain personal brand because it’s been all in, on brand builders group because of exactly what you said going, at some point we will get this AJ, my wife, she’s our CEO and we’ve been business partner since 2006. We already know that at some point it will gain enough critical mass. It will start to grow. And now it’s, we’re starting to kind of turn that toward, towards that direction. Yeah. And, and so now this is coming up again and, and to what you’re saying is going, gosh, the, the closer that my personal brand is, um, anyways, that’s awesome. I think it’s super powerful for me, even to just hear don’t feel obligated. Like you have to make sense of everything you’ve ever done and share it all and make sense of it in your story. Like your customer only cares about their problem. You only need to share whatever parts of your story are relevant to solving their problem.
PS (40:08):
Yeah. The only people worry who woke up this morning, thinking about you, AJ, your wife, your two kids, yourself, and the people who are trying to steal your business. That’s a, it, everyone else woke up with their own problem and you either have positioned your value to solve that problem. Or you don’t, you either positioned in a way that appeals to that individual buyer or you didn’t, you either positioned the, the business model to serve that person in a way that they actually, you know, are willing to prescribe to and write checks for. And you’re either doing it in a modality that suits them, or it doesn’t like, it’s really that simple, you know, and that hard at the same time.
RV (40:43):
Yeah. Yeah. Um, man, this is so awesome. So the book y’all making it happen, turning good ideas into great results. She hands wall named by us created by Peter sheen. um, uh, the, a lot more detail in it. And I’ve, uh, I’ve learned a lot today and I, I would say very much there are, there are, there are way there’s, there’s things that have come out of this conversation that were not a part of how I, you know, thought about it. And, um, it really, really is really is cool, man. So, um, what, where should people go if they want to connect with you, Peter, like, um, you know, what would, what would you have people, you know, knowing, knowing that you did this, basically as, as a, as a helpful favor and a buddy to like talk about something you haven’t talked about since 2009, uh, um, but, but
PS (41:33):
Live every day, by the way, but live every day, you know,
RV (41:36):
Live every day. Yeah. What, um, how do you want people to think about you? Where should they find you? What, uh, what should they refer for you, et cetera?
PS (41:47):
Yeah, I would, I hit me up on LinkedIn. That’s probably the, the safest place to stay in touch. Um, you can follow me on Instagram. I’ve posted about once every three years. And so, you know, maybe into 2023, you’ll see a post from, and I get, this is such a, we should actually get at this at some point in
RV (42:04):
Again, different audiences though. Like I don’t hang out on LinkedIn very much. I hang out
PS (42:09):
Instagram, but neither is a CEO of Pepsi. You know, he’s not on Instagram looking for corporate consultants and, you know, someone to facilitate his executive offsite. Like it’s just, it’s different audiences drive different decisions. I would go after LinkedIn is a great way to stay in touch. Um, I would get on free ring, circus.com and maybe join the mailing list there. And you’ll learn more about the work we’re doing in speaking development. And, and yeah,
RV (42:34):
And we had one of your business partners, Josh Linkner. We had him on this show, another world class speaker, one of the very, very best we interviewed him that you guys are business partners in three ring circus. So yeah,
PS (42:45):
Josh is a badass. I mean, that guy is a production machine. Like that guy can market, like he would not believe. And so that’s where I’d go. Um, I think there’s a place on my website, Peter sheen.com to sign up. Um, we don’t communicate to that list a lot, but when we do, but if you’re on it, when we have something interesting, we’ll let you know.
RV (43:03):
Yeah. Um, well, man, I love this and I, I just, I guess I just wanna say like, thank you while I have you, um, you know, some times people kind of make the, the comment like, oh, you, you know, you can’t change a life with a, with a, with a 45 minute keynote. And I would say, I used to think that, and, and I think of it less because of things like you, you know, I haven’t, I haven’t talked to you in 10 years and that one thing that you put up at that one moment hit me in the right way at time, stuck with me, changed my career. And now, you know, we’re trying to pass along your legacy to people and go like, look, this is look at the power of this thing all from a one random talk that you did. Yeah. 10 years ago, you don’t even make money. You don’t even talk to those groups anymore. And it, it’s made a huge impact, man, really, really powerful. And, um, and it’s been not just for me, I mean, definitely for me, but for a lot of the people that we talk to, and I’m glad they’re texting you going like, dude, I , what is she hands wall? Because it’s so impactful.
PS (44:13):
I, I was the one asking them, what’s she hand the wall? Look my you’re firstly, you’re welcome. I appreciate, uh, you saying, thanks. Anyone that underestimates the power of a single presentation to change a life is outside of their mind. 45 minutes with Jim RO transformed my life. And I built a company that worked with millions of kids, you know, on important life skills. I built a corporate consulting company that transforms, you know, we brought Microsoft and apple during there, like turnarounds, like it, that all came from that one day in the Horton perve in Sydney with Jim run on a platform. Right. And you know, I, you, you have other versions of that. I’m sure in your life where you something change the way you saw the world. And so I’m a deep believer in the power of what I call that a catalytic experience. And I’m, I feel honored flattered, and I take it very seriously, the responsibility we get to do that on a daily basis. Wow.
RV (45:04):
Well Shehan, uh, she hands wall, everybody from the source, Peter Shehan go grab the book, making it happen. Let’s see if we can sell some more books for him. uh, you know, read, read about this directly from the source. Um, brother, we just, we wish you the best. Uh, it’s an honor to be a colleague, uh, to be a, a mentee, a student of yours and, uh, really appreciate you carve some time out and, uh, and thanks for the free consulting. You’re you’re welcome to do that. Anytime you want
PS (45:31):
Brother take care.

Ep 244: How to Know if Writing a Book is for You with Tia Graham

AJV (00:02):
Y’all I am so excited to have our guest on the influential personal brand podcast today. You will, if you’re watching this on video, you’ll see her lovely face. If not, you’re about to hear from her. I am so excited because we have the opportunity to not only know miss Tia graham also get to work with her. She’s a client of ours at brand builders group. She has this amazing upcoming book. Again, if you’re watching, you’ll see me holding up a book, if not you’ll just hear me talk about it, but it’s called be a happy leader and who does not want to be that, but I think one of the reasons that I wanted to have a team on is this really cool divide and combination of how do you use your personal brand to grow your existing business while also extending the parts of your personal brand outside of your existing business, which I really love. And I also, I just love this whole concept of using happiness as a science to have more productive team members and leaders and humans as a whole. So Tia, I’m so excited about this. Welcome to the show.
TG (01:15):
Oh, thank you. I’m honored to be Here
AJV (01:16):
Oh, this is gonna be so great. So, okay. So we’re gonna keep this a little casual and as we go throughout the interview, I do want people to tell I want you to tell everyone a little bit about the book that’s coming out later this month. It’s very exciting. And then I want you to make sure you can tell people where they can get a copy of the book because it’s launching soon. Right. So, alright Tia. So you’re a guest on this show today and we don’t typically have a ton of our clients on the show for whatever reason, but I thought this would be a really great opportunity for someone who in your words would say that you’re maybe in more of the beginner mode building your personal brand, but also established in your business. And so I’m curious, what was it about you and what was it about it in general that says, yeah, I want to build my personal brand. So tell me how did that come about for you?
TG (02:12):
Sure. Yeah, so I was very intentional when I named my company and created my company, which is called arrive at happy. It’s not called Tia graham. And because I, my intention is I want it live on way past me and, you know, continue to grow and, and help people, you know, pass past my life is, is definitely, is definitely part of my intention. But I also is very cognizant that so much of arrive and happy right now is, is Tia graham. And I, I, you know, now I’m an author, but I speak, I do professional development with leaders, very active on social media platforms, et cetera. And the way, one of the main ways that I’ve built my business is through relationships, relationships with Tia Graham . And so, so, you know, when I, when I connected with brand builders and was learning a lot about sort of building your personal brand, I just became very aware that, you know, I wanted to focus on both it’s, it’s growing, arrive at happy, but it’s also this focus on Tia Graham, which supports arrive at happy.
AJV (03:17):
I love that, you know, and it’s something the, that we talk about all the time with our community and, and even on this podcast around everyone has a personal brand, IE, your reputation. It’s just some of it build it more proactively. So I’m curious. So how would you say, because you do have this really awesome combination of both B2C and B2B opportunities here, how would you say that you have seen building your personal brand actually help you grow, arrive at happy?
TG (03:49):
So I have, I would say the number one way is strange what I call strangers, right. I just said, I built my business through relationships and people that I’ve worked with in different companies over the past couple decades, but by focusing on building my personal brand, I’ve seen an increase in amazing, wonderful strangers reaching out to me, you know, people from different types of organizations, different locations that have found me because of my personal brand growth and the are interested in wanting to work with me, partner with me. And the, you know, whether it be because of videos that I’m creating or articles that I’m writing are all of these different things that I’m doing to to push out content that is, that is valuable to people. I think that’s the, the number one indicator that, that I measure. It’s not just people I know, it’s like, you know, as I said, loving strangers that then become clients and friends because of the focus on my personal brand.
AJV (04:53):
Ah, that’s so good. So I’m curious. So I think this is interesting, cuz we ask this all the time. So when you talk about your social, you’re putting out content, you’re putting out videos. What would you say, have you seen as when you get these loving strangers, which I love that. But what would you say, what types of content do you most often find that people are going, Hey, I saw this video and wanted to connect or this really resonated, like what type of content are you seeing? That’s really getting the most bang for the buck for you. Yeah.
TG (05:24):
It’s actually aligned with something that R said recently. I see the same. So it are it’s shorter videos, like I would say sort of in the one to three minutes, not edited, not even though I do have those, you know, edited videos, but the ones that just feel very natural, very native. And I’m speaking from the heart and truly answering questions that, and, and sharing content that I think will really help people. And when, when the people watching videos feel my energy and feel my emotions, those are the ones that get the most engagement comment, shares people reaching out to me re really thanking me and then wanting more.
AJV (06:13):
Oh, that’s so good. I know this has a whole thing that if you guys, if anyone listens to the show on the regular, like we literally have been diving into this with every single guest because we’re so fascinated, but yeah, we’ve seen the exact same thing in our company’s feed and our own feed. It’s like the more production value, the less engagement. And it’s like the more it’s like just you know, your phone out the, the woods or, you know, in the gym, it’s like, that always gets the most engagement for us right now. So that’s really interesting. You’re seeing the same another question about social media platform is what do you find like for you since you’ve kind of got this like unique combination of you do lots of different things that all fit in the personal branding world, right? You’ve got this book now, which you’re so excited about. You’re speaking and you have all these different things that you’re doing. So what would you say, what platform, when you think about LinkedIn, YouTube, Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, all the things. What platforms are you using that work for you and with your more professional audience? Yes.
TG (07:21):
So for sure, number one by a long shot is LinkedIn. Although I ha I do focus and continue to focus on other platforms because not as of right now, really 90, 95% of my business and my revenue is B2B. I work with corporate some nonprofits, but really it’s it’s corporations. And so LinkedIn, whether it be for direct connections conversations doing LinkedIn lives, of course, and then, you know, pushing out relevant content. That one is, is definitely the one that, that I’ve seen the biggest ROI on. And even for example, for press like I’ve had journalists from, in, in north America and even like Australia, find me on LinkedIn and wanna interview me. So definitely number one, LinkedIn,
AJV (08:14):
I love that. So I have a question for you then about that. So was that something that you discovered organically or was that this intentional decision of I’m gonna analyze all the platforms and see which one’s getting the most engagement, or is it something that you just kind of fell into? How did you decide which platform that you were really gonna go all in on?
TG (08:34):
So it was really intentional. My background is leading sales and marketing teams in luxury hotels. And so I’ve actually been very active on LinkedIn, my whole career, just in leading sales teams previously to, to having my own company. And so already I was living in that, you know, B2B sort of corporate space. And when I started the company and was, and was growing arrive at happy, I put a lot of time and investment and intentionality towards that. So, so yeah, I think it was, is a continuation from my corporate life and as, but then also I was intentional in growing other brands. Like in Instagram, I put a lot of focus on over the last four years and, and successfully grown that, and that was, that was new. I wasn’t doing that in my corporate life before.
AJV (09:23):
Yeah. So you already had like a good established connection with your LinkedIn. And so it’s just really building that over the course of time and just transferring the content and the business. Yes,
TG (09:34):
Yes, absolutely.
AJV (09:35):
You know, we we had Jasmine star on the podcast a couple months ago. Yeah, let’s do that one. And she said something, but I probably have said like a hundred times since, so I’m gonna totally steal this, but I’ll give her credit. So I think it’s fine. But she said there’s really two types of content that you have to consider. When you’re thinking about posting social media, there’s a platform that you consume content on and then there’s the platform that you create content for. And I thought that was a really good distinction cuz very similar to you. It’s like my previous life was a B to B sales consulting, leadership consult. And so it’s like I had all these different connections and established on LinkedIn. But then when we started brand builders group, I kind of forgot about LinkedIn because in this kind of like personal branding world, it’s everyone is talking about, you know, YouTube and Instagram and TikTok and, and it’s, it was one of those interesting things where I kind went this amazing platform that I had built for 12 years of going all right now I need to expand.
AJV (10:45):
And it wasn’t only until here recently, really when I heard that interview from Jasmine and star, that I really started pulling back up my LinkedIn and realized I have a gold here, gold mine, gold mine. What have I been doing with myself for the last three years? So super refreshing to hear that. Cause I don’t feel like you hear as much conversation around LinkedIn when it comes to this world we live in, but I would totally attest to what you’re saying. It’s now that been really just since October, really back active in producing content for LinkedIn and curating for that, I’ve seen an incredible boost of, you know, anything from media to speaking requests, to just engagement. And so I’m curious because you do have such a B2B presence what would you to someone who really is building their personal brand, who has a really large B to B you know, kind of machine going mm-hmm, , what’s the best way that you have seen to use LinkedIn that you think is really working?
TG (11:52):
Well, great question. So I think posting, like we going back to what I said before about creating, creating native videos, but also being very cognizant that it’s not Instagram and it’s not Facebook, so it shouldn’t be exactly the same that it is more of a corporate business environment. So that, those regular videos that, and thinking that I’m speaking to people who are in a community that are thinking about work that are thinking about career and all of that. Right? So, so that’s one for sure, to be very intentional and authentic with the way that you communicate with people. So there are so many people that reach out in a very inauthentic copy and paste fake salesy. I mean, I just wanna use the word icky way that it’s complete turnoff and you just want like delete, I never wanna talk to this person. And when I think about LinkedIn and say, for example, there’s a CEO or there’s a VP of sales that I would love to be working with a company that I would love to be working with.
TG (12:55):
I really look at LinkedIn as how can I start a conversation with this person? And I don’t go at it, you know, I wanna sell, or I wanna tell them what arrive at happy does, or I want them to book me as a keynote speaker. No, it’s about, you know, doing some research, looking at what’s going on in their company and really starting conversations or that they post something commenting in a, in a really off way and having conversations with people and those conversations, ideally then turn into zoom meetings and the zoom meetings then. Okay. Yes, you’re moving along. So those are the, those are the two strategies that I’ve used consistently that have been very successful of just, you know, those, those native videos. But again, you’re speaking to professional audience and then really having, having real conversations with people.
AJV (13:41):
Mm that’s so good. I want everyone to make sure that you paid attention to this native video comment of make sure that you’re creating content for the platform that you plan to put it on. I think it’s so easy in this world of feeling overwhelmed with like, I’ll just make one video and I’ll put it everywhere and it’s like no create native content for the platform that you’re curating it for. That’s so good. That’s so good. All right. I’m gonna switch gears a little bit because I really wanna talk about, be a happy leader. And I wanna talk about this book. I want you to tell us what the book is about, but I also wanna know why in your journey of building your personal brand and your business, why did you think, or why did you want to write a book?
TG (14:26):
So I very early on realized there’s a, so many people in the world and I’m not gonna be able to get to all of them. And I wanna help as many people as I can with, with the, with the lessons and, and the learnings and insight that I, that I have. And through speaking and, you know, doing leadership retreats and everything, you could only hit so many people in a year. And so I have this vision of, you know, there’s, there’s a overworked tired executive in Sweden. There’s another person in Australia and books have that power, right books, whether it’s audio books, print, ebook, et cetera. So really it was, it was impact. And that’s essentially my word for 2020 is impact of how many people I could reach. So that was one big reason for writing a book. And also I am very cognizant that it adds credibility. It, you know, and, and I I’ve seen it, you know, with, with clients and, and they’re like, oh, great, we want your books. So and, and being a part of the national speakers association, I’m very active there. Of course, there’s a lot of talk about books. So those were the two main reasons on the reason why I wanted to, and I really hope to write a lot more.
AJV (15:38):
Hi, so it’s reach and credibility reach and credibility. And I think that’s really important. I, I love what you said, cuz I don’t hear a lot of people phrase it that way where it’s like, I can only reach so many people at once, but it, like with this, it’s like I could be reaching, you know, a person in LA and a person in Sweden and a person over here. And I think that’s so true and it’s, and I love too just the reminder that if you really wanna write a book, you better have a de hearted passion for the message because you’re still in the thick of it. It, and I want you to tell everyone about the dirty, hard behind the scenes work yeah. That it takes to write a book. So for the person out there who has never written a book, but fills that tug on their heart or that longing of, I want a message that lasts beyond me. I wanna create this legacy and wanna expand my reach and I wanna help as many people as I can. And of course I want more credibility and more money, but, and you better have those first reasons cuz this is not for the faint of heart. I would love for you to just go, all right, here’s the behind the scenes truth of what it’s gonna be like to write a book. Yes.
TG (16:51):
Yes. So for short, you don’t know, you know, until you’re in it and you’re like, oh my. So one piece of advice that I recommend to anyone that asks me writing a book is to hire a writing coach. So I actually had a coach who I invested in and of course also writing a book and launching a book it’s an investment time and money and your heart and soul. So that helped me in terms of researching and designing and then writing the manuscript. But I will say, I believe writing the manuscript and actually writing the book is the easy part, which for a lot of people that seems like a big undertaking and it is, but if, if you wanted to it right and, and really get it out to as many people as possible and, and make the mark and have the reach, of course there’s the marketing and the promotion piece that comes after it.
TG (17:44):
So as soon as I finish the manuscript and all the editing and I mean, it’s like work, it feels like never, ever ending. You know, you’re also, there’s the piece and some people do this before. And so do it after depending if you want traditional publisher self-publishing hybrid publisher, but there’s the proposal piece, which is the business plan for the book. And I actually found that, and I’ve written business plans for 20 years for major hotel companies. This was more work for me in terms of how to do, you know, all of that piece. And then in a di then there’s the execution. So looking at whether it’s social media list, building the PR the influencer marketing, in my case, doing bulk sales to companies the retail sales partnerships speaking, all of it. So yeah, under the hood is a very, very big detailed engine of, of all the pieces. And I’m two years in and I, I mean, it’s launching now and I’m very aware that it’s gonna continue, you know, for, it’s not like it, it does as an end. And so you AB going to your piece about the heart, I have a mission statement that when I was writing the book and through all the work that I continuously look at on it’s the why, and, and, and the why needs to be more than money to keep you going. It needs to be more than I wanna make a lot of money
AJV (19:12):
And I wanna make sure I don’t neglect the fact that you said it’s been two years, two years, y’all one, two, right? This idea of like, Hey, I’ve got this idea and I wanna have this book published in the next six months. Sure. It can happen. But this has been two years and I think would be worthwhile of going in and talking about the book proposal process. As you know, this is something that we talk a lot about at brand builders group. We have an entire curriculum built around bestseller launch plan, how to launch a bestselling book. And it was one of the biggest mistakes that we made. Right. And it was one of the hardest lessons that we had to learn of what makes a successful book proposal because it is, it’s a full business plan with sales and marketing and content for the book. So I’m curious how was doing the book proposal different from actually writing the book mm-hmm and what would you say what made one easier or harder than the other?
TG (20:12):
So I believe that for me, writing the manuscript, writing the actual book was easier because it is, it’s your planning, your research, your ideas, and most people are very intimate and close with the format of books and how books flow. Right? I’m an avid, I like devourer book, so it wasn’t foreign to me. Whereas the book proposal, this was the very first time that I had ever seen one before. Like I said, I’ve done, you know, hotel sales and marketing plans, but this book proposal is very, very different. This business plan is very different and there are very specific pieces of the proposal that you need to follow. It’s not like you could just, you know, get super creative and no, you need to have, like, what are the competing titles? You know, all of, all of these different sections. And you have to be very in with every sentence, every word you knowing that these are going to publishers, knowing that they receive the huge volume of how do you have yours stand out.
TG (21:16):
And it took me so much longer than I thought. I mean, I allocated okay these days, these weeks. No. I mean, I think it took me five times longer. And, and also I there were several people, several professional people that I were, was going to, and they were giving feedback saying, no, Tia scrap this, do it again, not good enough. . And that feedback of like, oh, do it again, you know, which I think, yeah, you guys had similar of like, you know, keep, keep wanting to do it. So and yeah, and, and I obviously, you, you continuously, you know, the, the next one will be better than, than that one. Yeah.
AJV (21:53):
I think that’s the gift of feedback. If you’re willing to receive it, it’s gonna make you better. It might be painful in the process, but it’s gonna make you so much better if you just take it and go, what can I do with this? How does this apply? Yeah, but it, it, I think we went back and forth with our book proposal for two years. so way ahead of the game from us. It’s one of the reasons that, you know, we started brain builders group is how do we expedite this process for others? And how do we make it simpler and more seamless? But yeah, you know, it’s, it’s all those nitty gritty things when, and I loved what you said too about the, why has gotta be greater than the money, because it’s gonna be painful and it’s gonna be expensive.
AJV (22:36):
And all the things that you don’t think it’s like, oh, I’m just gonna get this huge advance and we’ll take care of everything. It’s not how it works. Right. Not how it works. Yeah. all right. So now I want you to tell us, like, tell us about, be a happy leader. This is specifically for my own selfish knowledge. I wanna talk about this science of happiness and how do you apply that to what you do, and then how does that apply to the book? So give us a, give us some insight scoop of some of this amazing content you’ve been working on. Sure.
TG (23:07):
So be a happy leader is about every single day as a leader, choosing your own wellbeing, choosing your own happiness and using the science of happiness and neuroscience research to make choices, to really be the best version of yourself. And it’s also about really focusing on the happiness of your team of the organization and having a beautiful, rich life where you’re not working all of the time. You know, I say a happy leader also has time to sleep time with their family time to exercise. And so it’s in my eight step methodology that I’ve put together based on my leadership experience in the hotel industry. And then all of the happiness research I’ve been doing over the last five years and the science piece is really the research over the last few decades coming out of Harvard and Yale and Berkeley. And it’s the research that teaches us what makes humans thrive.
TG (24:08):
So how you can increase those great emotions like excitement and joy and pride and, and have more fulfillment and purpose in your life. And it’s also the research on when you’re going through challenges when you’re extremely stressed, when you’re really over when you are having, you know, whether it be, you know, personal relationships or, or professional relationships, just life’s challenges. It’s also about this resiliency toolbox. And I think the science of happiness is even more valuable when you’re going through the challenging times. And so I’ve put a lot of tactics and, and tips and research in there that people can use, they can apply right away. And it’s all research based on, on how to be a happier human.
AJV (24:55):
Yeah. I love that. And who does not need that? Yeah. Who does not need that? I know, especially right now, especially as a leader you know, like my gosh, there’s plenty of things to be stressed out about in the world, but we have the choice to choose to be happy. If there was one thing in this book that you think every single person should read, what would it be?
TG (25:20):
Oh, great question. One thing that every person should read is the, this section on emotional wellbeing, I think, and this is something I wish I learned when I was 16. And I learned about it when I was, you know, closer to 40 is having a really healthy relationship with all of your emotions and being very accepting of all of your emotions and being, being curious about them, seeing, seeing them as teachers, whether it’s your personal life or whether it’s work challenges that I think that is a very, a very crucial part to being a happy leader.
AJV (26:01):
Oh, I love that. All the emotions all the time. I always tell Roy Roy says, babe, don’t get mad and I’m like, I’m not mad. I’m passionate. Don’t mistake. My, what you think is anger for passion. It just comes across in an aggressive way. And it’s always, this is ongoing theme. He goes, why are you so angry? And I’m like, I’m not angry. I’m passionate. All the emotion, anger
TG (26:28):
Is a anger is a teacher. I really, you know, anger’s telling you something, whether it’s passion and anger or not. So keep, keep, keep
AJV (26:36):
Feeling it. I love that, but I think that’s so good for everyone. Building a personal brand, building a business, just being a human it’s. We all wanna be happy. Right. And we all search for happiness in the wrong places. And I think too, it’s like, we all, we try to shut out the emotions because they’re they’re time consuming or we’re told, comfortable them out uncomfortable. Yeah. It’s like, I don’t know what to do with all these. I love this. I think everyone should come out and get this book. So Tia, can you tell everyone where they should go to learn more about you and how to get a copy of be a happy leader? Aw, thank you.
TG (27:14):
You can learn more about [email protected] and for the book, happy leader, book.com. And thank you so much for, for having me and for all of brand builders support in building the brand and helping me, helping me spread
AJV (27:28):
The message. Oh my gosh. I hope every single person across the world from GU to New Zealand to Sweden gets hands on this. And it’s happy leader book. Yes.

TG (27:43):
Happy book

Ep 242: Building Million Dollar Membership Sites with Alison Lumbatis

RV (00:07):
Hey brand builder, Rory Vaden here. Thank you so much for taking the time to check out this interview as always, it’s our honor to provide it to you for free and wanted to let you, you know, there’s no big sales pitch or anything coming at the end. However, if you are someone who is looking to build and monetize your personal brand, we would love to talk to you and get to know you a little bit and hear about some of your dreams and visions and share with you a little bit about what we’re up to to see if we might be a fit. So if you’re interested in a free strategy call with someone from our team, we would love to hear from you. You can do that at brand builders, group.com/podcast, brand builders, group.com/podcast. We hope to talk to you soon.
RV (00:53):
Well, I am honored to introduce you to a friend of mine and AJ’s Allison. Lumbatis, who we have now known for a few years. And I remember meeting her for the very first time I was actually teaching at Lewis Howes mastermind. And I specifically remember when Allison walked in the room and I could immediately tell, I was like, oh, she’s, she’s got the it factor. She’s got it. She’s sharp. She’s funny. She’s social. She’s just awesome. And the more I’ve gotten to know her, the more that I have continued to like her. And you might know her, you, you, you may have seen her online. She runs a very large blog lifestyle blog around fashion called get your pretty on. Her website is highly trafficked. And she has a membership program that’s built around that too. That has had a, to over 100,000 paying members, which is what we’re gonna talk about is how the heck did she do that? And she also just recently released a book the ultimate book of outfit formulas, the ultimate book of outfit formulas became number one on Amazon. And so we just adore her what she’s up to and felt like you need to hear Allison’s story. Plus she’s awesome. So Allison, welcome to the show.
AL (02:09):
Thanks. Rory. The feeling is mutual
RV (02:12):
. So tell us about how you get started. You were, you were an engineer. Yeah. And then suddenly you get into fashion and blogging and it becomes this membership. And now you’ve got this book and like you know, tell us about the early stages of your kind of personal brand journey.
AL (02:33):
Yeah, it’s crazy. I mean, how do you get from engineering to stylist and entrepreneur? It’s, it’s a huge leap, but I basically created the program that I needed at the time. And I had been working from home. I was in corporate America for 14 years, got the opportunity to work from home, which was an amazing blessing, but I realized very quickly within about three months of working from home, but I was never getting out of my yoga pants. I was not fixing my hair. I was not putting on makeup. I think a lot of people can relate to that during the pandemic. A lot of us were working from home for the first time and realized just how quickly things can spiral downhill when you don’t have that built in accountability for getting ready in the morning or having to keep hours or be in an office.
AL (03:15):
So I really started blogging from a place of this. Doesn’t feel good. I’m not motivated to get dressed every day. And it’s affecting not just the way I feel about myself, but so many things in my environment, too. Like the house is getting messier. I’m not doing laundry as much. I don’t feel like going on date nights anymore. I mean, it was literally affecting so many things. And when I sat down and thought about it, the first thing that popped in my head was can get dressed again. Like that’s a super easy, really tangible step I can take in the right direction. And sometimes it’s just about that one small thing that makes a huge difference in every other part of your life. So that’s why I started blogging. I wanted to start sharing what I was learning and blogging felt like an accountability partner to me when I did not have one at the time, I didn’t have that office to go into.
AL (04:00):
So even though I was only getting dressed for me and to feel better about myself and to get into a routine, what ended up happening is that a lot of women found me and the blog grew organically to around 50,000 page views within six months, which was crazy. And I was still working in corporate America at the time, blogging on this side, really to just enjoying this creative outlet that I had. And I really didn’t start out thinking this was gonna be a business at all. I had done little things on the side in the past, I’d done some life in business coaching. I had run a personalized gifts business. So I had dipped a toe into some entrepreneurial ventures, but nothing like this, where it was just true, really a passion project and something that I was doing because I was loving sharing what I was learning throughout the process.
AL (04:48):
It didn’t become a business until about two years later, I took a severance package from corporate and I decided to just really go all in on it and, and throw everything I had into just serving and serving and serving the commute. But what happened is I ended up with three months left in my bank account of my severance oh, wow. We had cut that back drastically. We were a two income family. So my husband and I just really made sacrifices and, and cut back for me to be able to do this. But I finally got to a point where I thought I’ve built this huge audience. I have this community around what I’m doing. I’m not really making any money. And that’s when the idea for outfit formulas was born. I went to my readers, I went to my followers and I said, if I could do something for you that would make your life easier.
AL (05:32):
What would that look like? And there was all of this overlap on those responses that came back to me. My reader said, please just give us a shopping list, tell us what to go out and buy each season and tell me what to friends to add to my closet and then show me ways to pair it up. So I inadvertently created a capsule wardrobe, which I didn’t even know what it was at the time. I’m not a trained stylist. I’ve just learned as I’ve gone on through this process and journey. And I was thinking, I’ll be really excited if 50 women signed up this first time out, the gate 500 women signed up. And I knew right then and there with that first launch that this was going to work and I was going to be able to replace my income. And the rest is history. We’ve, we’ve grown in season over season.
RV (06:13):
Like the first, the first, the first launch, like, you know, because I, I think I mean, obviously you’re familiar with our brand builder community and, you know, personal brands you bump into ’em a lot. And I think, you know, people see whoever Dean Graziosi, Tony Robbins, Jeff Walker, Brandon Behar, they see people launch these huge high dollar offers. Yes. And kind of go, oh, that’s you? That, that’s what it looks like that. But how much was your first, how much were you charging?
AL (06:43):
My very first program was a whopping $10. Bam.
RV (06:47):
10 bucks.
AL (06:48):
yes.
RV (06:49):
Uhhuh, but you had 500 people sign up.
AL (06:53):
I did, yes. And then I think I went to $19 shortly thereafter. I, we played around a bit with pricing between 29 and 39. And I’ve ended at $39, which is where we’re at right now and seems to be that sweet spot. But from the beginning I knew I wanted to democratize personal style and I knew I could look at this membership. One of two ways, either we’re doing the high dollar, you know, appealing to a much smaller niche, or I’m doing something at a lower amount that I’m gonna be able to reach, you know, potentially hundreds of thousands of women. And that’s the path and the route that I decided to go with my pricing. So while we’re at 39, now that seems like such a huge difference between, you know, my $10 launch that I did back in 2014
RV (07:35):
Uhhuh . But that is really huge. And one of the, one of the things that we’re big believers in is that when you’re first starting out with your personal brand, you need customers more than you need revenue. Like you have to have that win. And like you, you had that 500 people bought something. I mean, it was 10 bucks, but they, they bought something. They said, I trust you. I want to take this deeper. I wanna, I want to, I wanna give it another shot. Now at the same time, it kind of freaks me out to go, well, you gotta sell a lot of $10 somethings to replace any type of corporate income that you, you once had. So, so 500 times tens five. And so you did $5,000 in your first launch. How long did it take you to get to where, you know, you you’re making enough money consistently that you could like support yourself on it.
AL (08:31):
In that first launch, I realized a few things, number one, that this was going to be a seasonal launch. So I knew that I was gonna have recurring revenue and I would be able to, you know, basically have new product to sell to the same customers four times per year. Along with that, I also started to play around with creating evergreen programs in the business and, and realizing that, you know, I could upsell them into other programs and have other offerings available to them. And on the back end of that launch, it was actually around a $25,000 launch because the program sales weren’t the only way that we were getting rev or that I was getting revenue at the time. Oh, I was also doing affiliate sales on the back end of that. So every piece of clothing that they purchased through this shopping list in this caps wardrobe, I was earning affiliate commissions from all of the retailers that were on the list too.
AL (09:20):
So that’s always been a really big part of my business model is get, is getting those affiliate sales on the back end. So really just thinking about ways that once you get that customer and you’ve earned their trust, you know, what are some other ways that you can offer, you know, of what they want and be able to continue to bring revenue in, not just from the membership income, although now, you know, nine years down the road that has absolutely overshadowed everything else. But back then I had to get really, really creative when I didn’t have as many customers.
RV (09:52):
Yeah. Well, that’s interesting. So even like a brand builders group, you know, we’re are helping people set their strategy and then they ultimately go, I need execution. I need someone to edit my videos, do my social media posting, like, you know, do my Facebook ads, blah, blah, blah. And we started to step down the path of trying to do it and quickly realize there’s so much here for so many people. And we did the same thing. We said, let’s spend our time curating a vendor list of trusted providers that the whole community can use. And if somebody doesn’t do a good job, like we’ll just stop using them and, and do affiliate fees that way. And that’s been super powerful for us is, is just answering that question. How can I serve my current audience in a deeper way? You know, and it, and it brings business to you. So, all right, so that’s 2014. So today you have a $39. It’s not 39 a month. It’s $39 a season. So it’s really like correct $13 a month, but they pay for a season, a season it’s worth. So like, where are you at? Give us a sense of the scope of where you’re at today?
AL (11:02):
Well, it’s, honestly, you know, we’re, it’s a seven figure brand now, and it’s amazing to think about that. And, and where I came from 2014 to today and, and I have a team of 10 people supporting this and it just keeps growing season over season, year of after year, we grew during a pandemic, you know, it’s, it’s something where I’m able to really meet women where they are, those who are in transition or rebuilding a wardrobe, or just don’t know where to start, or just don’t want the decision fatigue of deciding what to buy each season or, or how to get dressed every day, they get an email or they get a notification on their phone that tells them exactly pair up and how to put it together. So I think that the best part of it though, is
RV (11:43):
Every day for a whole season.
AL (11:44):
Yes, yes. Every day for a whole season.
RV (11:46):
And it’s for three months, you tell ’em what to wear.
AL (11:49):
Yes. And it’s created from pieces on that shopping list and they’re able to shop their closets and, and find items that are on there, check them off and then go out to the stores to fill in the blanks. And the beauty of that is they can either shop my links, which they’re more than welcome to do, or they can shop in their favorite stores. Some women shop exclusively in thrift stores and find everything that they need for the list. Others are going to Neiman’s and finding the things that they need for the list. And as is, they’re able to follow the formula, which is really just a framework of bottoms. Anything you wear on your lower half tops, topper, shoes, and accessories. Those are the five variables. And we mix and match them in different ways to create different looks every single day. That is
RV (12:27):
So cool. And you just had a, so you had a hundred thousand, you’ve recently crossed us a hundred thousand people who have purchased at least one season and they’re all women, right? Yes.
AL (12:38):
Well, we have a men’s wear program as well, but , the women are buying it for the men. So that goes to show you, like, I think for the most part we’re dressing our guys. ,
RV (12:49):
That’s definitely true in the Vaden household. Yeah, that’s so cool. I, I mean to go in, in basically a five year, I mean, five years from zero to a hundred thousand customers, and I just think it’s cool because you, you, you know, you hear always about, oh, the million dollar launch and a multimillion dollar launch, da da, but like to say a hundred thousand customers. Now you have a hundred thousand people that trust you, which will be whatever, you know, that number grows and grows and rose. I think we don’t, we, we underestimate the importance of a customer and we often overestimate the value of just revenue by itself and be like, mm. Having a lot of people buy from you is, is super valuable. So, so let’s talk about the membership model for a second. So you do a I think memberships are one of those things that I, I kind of feel like, especially for personal brands, like so many things, it’s almost like this holy grail of, you know, it’s like this facade of going well, gosh, if, if I had a thousand members that were paying me a thousand dollars a month, that’d be a million dollars, a like, that’d be 12 million a year, but I don’t think people realize how hard it it is for the membership program and like just what it takes.
RV (14:06):
And, and, and that now, do you, do people pay monthly or they only do a, they buy a season at a time.
AL (14:15):
So we have two you different ways that they can sign up. They can either subscribe seasonally by purchasing, purchasing them one off, or we have an annual membership. So at the end of the year, I open up memberships from November through March of the following year for the next year’s membership. And with the annual membership, we offer a lot of perks, bonuses, early access because I really wanna front load the year and get as many people as possible to sign up for that annual membership so that they are locked in that they’re with us for the entire year. We have around an 85% customer retention rate, which is insane and amazing, but I also involve my customers in the process every single season. I allow them to give their input on what I’m creating. What pieces would you like to see repeated in this capsule?
AL (15:01):
What trends are exciting you the most? What did you like the most about the pieces that we had in our capsules this past year? What stores would you like to see? All of, of that data comes back in my team, boils it down, and then we incorporate as much as we possibly can into the next season. And when you’re launching four times a year, you have that ability to just course correct and easily add things in, especially if it’s not gonna be a huge investment, but just really make the program more valuable and keep your customers excited about it. When they’re involved in that process, you better believe when that cart opens. They are the first ones there, ready to sign up. They literally wait up until midnight the night before the people that aren’t annual members and even our annual members, when we open the memberships up, they wait until midnight and they are right there signing up and ready to go. It’s I love
RV (15:50):
It. Like black, black, Friday, Walmart, like knocking people, knocking each other over to say, like, get into your membership. And I’m glad it’s
AL (15:59):
Virtual.
RV (16:00):
I mean, the outfit formula,
AL (16:02):
I want my shopping list.
RV (16:04):
So so you mentioned that you launch, okay, so you, you have the annual, so they don’t really pay monthly. You have, you can basically buy a season at a time or you just pay for the pay for the year. Correct. But you,
AL (16:19):
We do a payment plan option too, for the annual membership. So if they do wanna break it out into payments, they can do that.
RV (16:24):
I gotcha. Okay. And then the four times a year, when you go through a launch, what do you do? Like how do you, you launch this thing and, and, and maybe talk a little bit about how you, how you used to do it. Like when you were first starting and you didn’t, you know, I mean, now you’ve got a hundred thousand of people in your database that are, are buyers. You gotta, you must have way more than that in your, in, you know, just in the, the database. But like, if you have, what are all the steps you would do to, of like sell a season or launch a season? Sure.
AL (16:57):
So our launch cycle is about six weeks. From beginning to our cart opening in the beginning, R it was, it was me I was, I was doing it all. I cobbled together the systems on the back end, I was like copying PayPal code buttons into my browser and, and creating password protected, you know, WordPress pages. It was so rudimentary, but over the course of the second year, that’s when I really invested in technology and learning, you know, what it would take to really just get in a space of being scalable and starting with the end in mind, and being able to say, I wanna be able to serve hundreds of thousands of members. What does that look like? And how can I build a technology now in order to allow that to happen? So I think that was one of the best decisions that I made early on was really just investing in doing that.
AL (17:42):
And then, you know, we work in as sauna. Everything is in a seasonal launch project. So every season, my business manager and I sit down and we look through all of the tasks that are in that project and everything that gets assigned out from tech support to customer support and graphic design, to marketing. And we take a look at it to make sure that everything still makes sense, and we wanna continue doing all of these steps, or if we need to add something else in or, or take something out again, because we’re launching so frequently, we are able to just really course correct and, and fix things as they come up or add things in so that we can be super nimble and, and, and change at the drop of a dime, which we had to do last year. We had, we had to shift and pivot in all those good things.
AL (18:26):
But it takes about six weeks. From the time I start gathering the Intel from our existing customers of what they would like to see included in the capsule to me, really just heading out and doing trend spotting. I go into the malls, I go into stores, I look at items. I go online, I do tons of, you know, online shopping window, shopping to choose items that I feel would work well in the capsule. Then I do my creative part, which is actually creating the capsule. Once that’s done. I hand that off to my team and then everything from that point forward, I’m not necessarily involved in it’s all the downstream stuff from creating the PDFs and the graphic design to loading everything into the membership site, to, you know, really going out and sourcing links from forever, everyone from petites to plus sizes and, and everything in between from budget friendly to higher ends. It’s like everything. We, we try to cover it all just to truly make this as easy of a process for our customers as possible. And then, you know, once all of that is done loaded into the membership site, then the very last thing we do is launch our sales pages, open our cart and, and they sign up it sounds so magical. Right?
RV (19:35):
well, yeah. So when you, you, you launch a sales page, so you say whatever, it’s the fall season, you know, 20, 22, 21 or whatever is this winter season, summer season. And then do you just email your live us? Do you run ads? Do you do webinars? Do you do podcast tours? Do you try to get on TV? Do you like, is it a little bit of all the above?
AL (20:01):
Yes. It’s a little bit of all of the above, but I’ll tell you what works the best. So between launches, we’re really working on capturing as many leads as possible and growing our list because our newsletter list can it’s at about 10%, which is crazy, but that’s the place where I really am able to nurture any of our new leads that come in to really explain the program to them, to give them value. I send them a newsletter on a weekly basis with tons of freestyle resources and advice. And I think that that’s really the key to that really high conversion numbers. So we work really hard on the list. I do, you know, podcasts perform extremely well. So it’s, it’s a lot of different things that are going on in between those launches to really ensure the success whenever we do launch and, and really focusing on those repeat customers too, and getting them into the seasonal programs and then ultimately selling them into the annual memberships at the end of the year as well.
RV (20:55):
So it’s really building the list and sort of building the trust. And then when the launch happens, you basically have just emailing and saying, Hey, it’s, it’s live, it’s open sign up for yes. You know, the, the new season. Exactly. And, and then in terms of, you’re just using whatever lead magnets, PDF downloads, maybe a video training, like whatever you’re using, just normal stuff to get people onto your email list. And then it’s the value every week through the newsletter building the trust in advance. And then just letting ’em know the cart is open.
AL (21:24):
Yes, definitely. We run a lot of Facebook ads to our or freebies too. So that shows us right away, like what’s performing well. And we actually make money on our lead gen, which is crazy, but how, for the most part, they sign up for freebies and then they end up purchasing something from me either, you know, an evergreen program or they end up enrolling into the seasonal program. So although it is really done as a lead magnet, we’re converting on all of those leads that are coming in and making, making money on our ad spend, which is crazy Uhhuh
RV (21:56):
. How do you get 85% customer retention? So what, what does that number mean first of all, and how do you, how do you make that happen?
AL (22:08):
So the 85% customer retention is really our customers that end up continuing to purchase from us and coming back year after year, I have some women who have been with me since 2014 and have done every single season, every single annual membership. I would say the majority of our customers have been here for at least four years. And the beauty of the program is at while some people don’t, they don’t technically graduate out. Sometimes they’ll take a break and take a year off or take a season off or whatever, if they feel like they have enough clothes or, you know, they’re in a good place right now, and they don’t need as much guidance or advice, but then they can jump back in at any time. So that’s why I decided I did want to offer the option that people can sign up on a seasonal basis instead of just getting locked in for the full year.
AL (22:51):
So again, I think that a lot of this has to do with involving the customer in the process, but also building the community around the program. We have an extremely active community. Our Facebook group has hundreds of posts per day. It’s a little bit overwhelming sometimes for the members, but it’s really a space for women into explore style where they feel supported. They don’t feel like they’re intimidated by anything. There are a lot of women in there on this journey that have never felt stylish in their lives that have never just gotten a compliment from a stranger on an outfit that are experiencing this for the first time, or that have a particular body shape. And they’re able to come into the group with thousands of other members and say, I’m struggling to find, you know, a pair of HighEd jeans, that’s flattering for my body type.
AL (23:34):
What are you finding? And, and then there’s tons of immediate feedback that’s coming in through that group. Or they snap selfies in the fitting room and say, which one would you choose this one or this one? And they’re getting that immediate response from people in the community. We’ve had women from Germany and Finland that have flown to the us, like we’ve built up this huge community. They have girls nights out in certain cities around the us. And, and it’s about so much more than the clothes it’s about really just supporting one another and the beauty of female friendships and support and the way that it can be done in the right way. We see so much, you know, so much negativity online and it’s just a space that is so opposite of that. That is truly special, especially in this day and age. And I think that that’s really the secret sauce, something that I never expected to happen. Did you create
RV (24:23):
That on purpose or did that, like, did, did, did it happen just sort of organically or like, how did that happen?
AL (24:30):
I think, you know, I was really intentional about this from day one. I wanted it to be a place where it was kind of a mean girls free zone, where women were giving their opinions, but delivering them with love where honesty was appreciated, but in a way that, you know, it wasn’t critical or hurt anybody’s feelings. And it was really about setting the tone. You know, I was very involved in the Facebook group early on and was in there, you know, trying to get people to engage in setting the tone in so many different ways of this is how we treat each other. This is how we’re kind of supportive to one another. And then it just took off on its own. And kindness spreads just as quickly as negativity does. And we really, in the past, you know, however many years of doing this, I can count on one hand the amount of members that we’ve even had to go to and say, Hey, we can’t, you can’t say that, or that’s not appropriate for this group or whatever, like moderation in this group of thousands of women is not a big deal simply because we do set that tone.
AL (25:29):
And we do have them agree to guidelines for behavior in the group. And I think we just kind of attract that more of that coming in, that when people get in that group and they’re like, oh, wait, this operates differently. This is either a good fit for me or this isn’t a good fit for me, then they stay or they leave and that’s, that’s perfectly fine
RV (25:46):
Is the only, the only the active members are in the, in the Facebook group.
AL (25:51):
Yes. So we start a new Facebook group every season, which is another reason why we feed them into this new group and everybody wants to be in that group with their friends. So I think that this is another key to success for the program is, is closing down the previous seasons group and then starting fresh and new each time we launch a program.
RV (26:09):
Interesting, fascinating. Is there anything that you’ve learned about a membership that like now that you’ve been doing this, you know, cuz cuz you know, like at brand builders group, you know how we talk about the, the paids P I D S and the five ways to make money and there’s, there are information pro is one of ’em and inside of that eye is there’s video courses, assessments, certification programs, membership sites. And I feel like membership sites were really hot for a while. People got to, they, they caught a taste of wow, recurring revenue is a really amazing thing and the community like you’re talking about. But you know, then sometimes it’s like back to the video course because it’s like, well, if I could sell a video course for $500 versus offered as a membership site for 40 bucks a month and they only stay for four months, then I’m not, you I’m losing money. Like what have you learned about membership sites and making them successful that you kind of go, if you’re thinking about starting a membership site, now this is what you should know. Or like, this is what I didn’t know then that I do now.
AL (27:18):
Yeah. So I think, you know, one of the keys to this is really creating something that’s sticky me, meaning you keep them coming back for more. Right. So with a seasonal program, you’re automatically, you’ve got that stickiness built in that keeps them coming back because there are new trends. Every season, there are new ways to wear things, you know, where our wardrobes change seasonally. So that is sort of built into my program and, you know, back early on when I was evaluating this, do I wanna evergreen programs to where I’m just selling people into figuring out, you know, your closet staples or building your wardrobe, or do I wanna do something that I’m going to be launching four times a year because it is a lot, it is a lot of work. It’s a lot for me, it’s a lot for my team. I’ve kept coming back to the stickiness of doing the seasonal model.
AL (28:02):
So if you have something where you can keep people coming back, then absolutely. You’re not, you know, I do have to keep the funnel full. I do have to do all the lead gen. I have to do things between our launches, but I think that this worked out really, really well. You know, stickiness works out well for a membership type model. You also have to generate a little bit of scarcity and that’s sometimes difficult to do when you are working in a membership model. Like how do you create scarcity of something that, you know, people have the opportunity to pay for on a monthly basis? And so I had to look at ways that we could build that into. So, you know, some of the things that I do is we release our shopping list, you know, on the day that it opens to the public, our annual members get the shopping list early.
AL (28:45):
What happens is that we sell out the pieces on that list at almost all of the retailers on there. So say we put a sweater on there from Nordstrom within 24 hours, that sweater usually sells out if that’s the pictured item and the capsule, most of the women want that. So there’s that scarcity there of, I’ve got a sign up early. I wanna get my shopping list to you as possible, cuz I don’t want the pieces on this list to sell out. I wanna be the first one in line. So really just kind of getting creative with ways that we could create a little bit of scarcity with that, especially in something that if you’re not closing cart and you’re keeping it open, which I do, we allow people to sign up throughout the entire season. We eventually discount the seasonal program toward the end.
AL (29:27):
But you know, really just kind of thinking through ways that we can create that little bit of FOMO for, for our customer base has been important. And then again, you know, I always go back to the surveys and the feedback and you know, collecting that information. If you have an audience now, if you have followers, if you’re, if you are out there anywhere on social media or you’re blogging or, or doing whatever, you’d be amazed at how much you, how much you can get from that feedback. If you’re thinking about launching a membership model, you know, it’s great for passive income and a lot of ways, if there’s something that you teach or a course that you do, that you could put into that you can do in a video series or something that you can make sticky or release new content on a regular basis. That’s really what it’s all about. Like how often are you willing to release new content, then you might wanna look at a membership model
RV (30:21):
Mm-Hmm and, and one of the other things that I I, I love about you is you, you are, you invest into yourself a ton, like obviously I met you at Lewis’s mastermind and then through brand builders and everything, like how important has that been along the way? Like, have you always done that? I mean, here you go from starting this kind of random blog about stuff that you not random, but like, it was just kind of like a project, like a hobby. It was like a hobby about, Hey, I’m I’m, I should be dressing up. I don’t have a reason to dress up. And then it turns into like an accountability system for yourself. And then it turns into, you know, this business and then it turns into this whole community and this whole movement that you have now. And so you have really become, I mean, a true powerhouse entrepreneur, like have you always done a lot of personal development and business development or really just in recent years or like it’s, how important has that been in your journey?
AL (31:26):
Honestly, it’s been the thing that’s moved the needle more than anything else, you know, just really continually investing in myself. My, my second year of doing this, I joined my first mastermind, which was on course development. And that’s when I learned about that technology, you know, that I would need for this membership. I, I didn’t know what I was doing and I wanted to get involved in something that would shortcut that process for me. So that was really my first experience in a mastermind. And I’ve enrolled in something every single year since then. And honestly like whenever I feel stuck, that’s when I know I need personal development. I need to be investing in myself. I need to get involved in something and just being a member of brand builders, you know, I’ve, I shared this not too long ago with a friend of mine.
AL (32:08):
I feel almost like everything that I learn in brand builders. It’s about a six month lead time until I’m applying it in my business in some way. Like, I feel like I’m already equipped and I have that knowledge. And even though at the moment, maybe I’m not implementing it immediately, but I’ll be go through the trainings and I’ll, I’ll learn something that’s just completely eye opening in six months down the road, low and behold, I’m implementing it. And just the 15 PS last year in our annual memberships for the first time ever, we had cold leads that had no idea what the program was that were signing up immediately without knowing much about outfit formulas at all. Because we used the 15 piece to do our annual membership sales page, my team, and I sat down and we hammered it out and it was so incredibly effective that we suddenly had a problem we hadn’t prepared for before. And that was when cold leads come in and they don’t really truly understand the program and the education process that we needed to do on the backend of that, cuz they didn’t have that nurture that was happening, that other people were having. So I just am totally a proponent for investing in yourself and continuing entrepreneurship is really a personal development journey, honestly. Like that’s what it is. And that’s what I’ve learned more than anything. And honestly it’s what I enjoy more than anything too.
RV (33:25):
I love that. That’s so cool. Yeah. You know I know Hillary is your strategy. She mentioned that to me about the 15 piece, but I had forgotten about I had totally forgotten about that that I copywriting for those of you just listening, it’s we’re using that we’re using, we’re using jargon 15 pieces, our little like copywriting formula. Well I, I think so one of the things that happened was to that point, you went through our bestseller launch plan. So I re I very much remember like, okay, like here comes Allison through through best on our launch plan. And then you did it like you did this launch and you hit number one on Amazon. Like, so tell us about the book and the book launch and like what worked for you there since it’s just like fresh. I think, you know, for, for that piece of it specifically so if those of you, if you miss said early on, we said, it’s the ultimate book of outfit formulas, the ultimate book of outfit formulas. So get your pretty on is the membership community and, and the kind of like brand, but the ultimate book of outfit formulas was the book. So can you take, tell us about like the launch and like what did, what happened? What did you learn? How did it go? Like what worked, what didn’t work?
AL (34:42):
Honestly, Roy, I just followed every single step of be seller launch plan. And I think, I , I don’t know if it was you or Hillary, but somebody, I, I remember texting and saying it worked like it worked, we hit number one, like immediately we hit, we were instantly number one and in a competitive category, it was in fashion design on Amazon. So honestly the, just implementing every single bit of that strategy and planning at least six months in advance and looking at, okay, what’s the timeline for this launch. If you wait until the very end, you’re not gonna get everything done and it’s gonna be extremely difficult to have everything in place that you need to for the pre-orders and, and getting those pre-order bonuses in place. And all of the, everything that I learned in bestseller launch plan my team and I were able to take that, put it into an Asana project, assign things out as we needed to.
AL (35:32):
I brought on somebody who handled my street team for me, which was a huge weight off my shoulders and it just worked. It, it, it was, it was amazing. I mean, I was not entirely surprised that everything just came together the way that it did, but, you know, just taking those strategies. And I, I think that instantly what we wanna do is push it for our audience first and that’s not necessarily the best thing to do. So I learned like that there is a particular order that we need to do this in and following all of those steps was really key to it hitting that, that bestseller status. And that’s something that we’re always gonna have. So yeah, I’m, I’m really pleased with the way that this book launch went. It was traditionally published book. So I learned a ton this time around that I’m gonna take into, you know, I’m almost done with my second manuscript and I’m already, you know, I’ve got pages of debrief notes and I’m ready to go. I’m I just feel like it’s gonna be even that much more successful this time around.
RV (36:32):
I love that. And you’ve got the, the, you’ve got an asada project already built for it. Like you, yes. Run this
AL (36:39):
Rinse and repeat right. Make it easy, work smarter, not harder.
RV (36:44):
I, I, I love, I, I love this so much. Alison, like you mentioned the your street launch team. Yeah. So this is one of the things that we talk about, you know, a lot of people do this. It’s, it’s basically getting a team of why didn’t you tell us, so what is a street launch team? And then what did you have, how did you find those people? And then what did you have them do?
AL (37:09):
So a street launch team is essentially the people on the street, the word of mouth that are out there sharing about your book, but they’re doing this in a very coordinated and organized way. So you’re providing them with the graph ethics, with the quotes, with all of the assets, to be able to easily share on social media and to talk about your book and generate buzz about it so that when the time comes and, and you’re, I’m sure that anybody who’s kind of observed a launch from the outside has seen all of these big influencers doing this, where it seems like, oh my gosh, everybody’s talking about this book right now. Like what’s going on? Like, I’m excited. I wanna know about this book, right? So this is what your street team is doing for you. They’re creating that buzz in a way. That’s not necessarily these huge influencers that are doing this for you.
AL (37:49):
So so that’s exactly what it is. And I hired somebody to come in and do that for me, who managed my street team for me, who, you know, we had a Facebook group or we were doing contests and having them, you know, submit their, their reviews. I mean, they got early access to the book. They got, you know, a digital preprint of it. So they were able to read the book and really give honest reviews on multiple outlets for it. So it really just creates all of that prework before the book even comes out so that when it does launch, people are able to read reviews on good reads and target and Amazon and all the places and see what this book is all about in the words of people who have actually read it. So I highly recommend it. And if you’re able to have somebody else handle that for you, it takes a lot off the shoulders of the author because you are gonna be involved in so many other things. I did a podcast tour leading up to my launch as well. And that was, you know, that was taking so much of my bandwidth, that I was just really happy that I could turn this over to someone else to handle.
RV (38:52):
I love it. I mean, just so cool. I mean, you execute all this stuff. I mean, you, you execute and that’s what it’s like. So much of it is simple. I mean, people don’t realize it’s like on the one hand, it’s really freaking hard. On the other hand, it’s a pretty straight line. It’s like, okay, you have a lead magnet, you give somebody something of value, add ’em to your email list, give them value every week. You, you know, let ’em know something’s available, have a, have a sales page with the 15, P’s have, have a few bonuses on there. Like, and I just, I just, I love this story so much and it makes me so happy to, to, to see when people like you are, are winning Allison. And if y’all, you know, check out the book, so it’s the ultimate book fit formulas and you know, get your pretty on, obviously is the community and everything. So Alice, Allison, where do you want people to go to learn about you or stay, stay plugged in connected to what you’re doing?
AL (39:49):
Yes, definitely. So you can check me out at Allison Loba on Instagram. If you wanna see all the personal life stuff, my horses in my little mini farm, I live on or you can go to alpha formulas.com if you’re interested in learning more about the program.
RV (40:03):
So cool. We’ll put a link to that in the show notes, as they say. And Allison, thank you for being here. Thank you for just sharing your story. It’s such a great journey. It’s it’s just beautiful, I think, to, to see where it’s gone and you’re just your heart for serving people and helping people with something that you once struggled with. I mean, it, it, it just captures the essence of, you know, we, how we always are talking about your most powerfully positioned to serve the person you once were. Yes. And that’s what you start doing. And then you go, how can I serve my audience in a deeper way? How can I add more value? How can I make this easier? How can I make it easier for them to buy and and then just continue investing in yourself and just, I mean, we feel so lucky to know you and just be your friend and just excited and honored to like see you winning and knowing that you’re like, just getting started. I mean, I it’s, it’s hard to imagine where way you’re gonna be in five or 10 years. So thank you for, for all of this and we wish you all the best. Thank
AL (41:04):
You, Roy. I totally appreciate the influence that you’ve had on my business and, and personal life. I appreciate it.

Ep 240: Beating Your Inner Critic with Dr. Margie Warrell

RV (00:07):
Hey brand builder, Rory Vaden here. Thank you so much for taking the time to check out this interview as always, it’s our honor to provide it to you for free and wanted to let you know there’s no big sales pitch or anything coming at the end. However, if you are someone who is looking to build and monetize your personal brand, we would love to talk to you and get to know you a little bit and hear about some of your dreams and visions and share with you a little bit about what we’re up to to see if we might be a fit. So if you’re interested in a free strategy call with someone from our team, we would love to hear from you. You can do that at brand builders, group.com/pod call brand builders, group.com/pod call. We hope to talk to you soon.
RV (00:53):
I am always amazed at the people that we get a chance to meet at brand builders. And every once in a while, we just meet somebody who just kind of captures us and goes, wow, how do we not know each other? And how do we not know each other yet? And that is how I feel about Dr. Margie war, who you’re about to meet. So she is a five times bestselling author. She is a Forbes columnist. She’s a world renowned advisor on leadership and human potential. And she works with companies like NASA and Google and Deloitte and Berkshire Hathaway. And she’s a speaker. She does consulting and really has just spent 25 years doing research and kind of just working in the field to help people boost their, their courage and elevate performance and accelerate their growth. So she also lectures at Columbia and Georgetown, and she’s been on, you know, the New York times and several other success magazine today show and is, is just awesome. And we got a chance to meet here, not that long ago, visa brand builders group. And as I got to learn more about her, I felt like you needed to hear her story. So Dr. Margie to the show.
MW (02:03):
Rory it is awesome to be with you always .
RV (02:08):
So tell us your story about how you got started in, in this space. You know, I, I, and, and correct me if I’m wrong. So the way that we understand now is like a, a big part of your business model is from speaking and you know, driving revenue in the last several years from speaking, but you also traveled a bunch internationally. You were a mom, like you had a lot of things going on that I think people often would go if I had those things going on, I probably couldn’t build the kind of career that you’ve been able to build. So give us a little bit of that background.
MW (02:46):
Yeah, well, I, I, I think I, as you can probably tell from my accent, I’m from the deep, deep, deep, deep, deep south the land down under, so yeah, I, I grew up in Australia and I went off to university first in my family to do so studied business, started a corporate career and did a lot of backpacking, also in my twenties, but in my late twenties, while living in P and new Guinea and working there, I just, you know, numerous personal challenges, struggles trauma, cetera. I changed career path and decided I wanted to work in the field of helping people deal with the stuff that keeps us from really thriving and living the lives. We are born to live and becoming all that we are born to be. And, and so I went back to co I did psychology, and then someone said to me, you know, Margie, you’ve worked, you’ve done some consulting.
MW (03:44):
You’ve, you’ve worked in business. You, you should think about coaching. And I, I remember laughing and saying, oh my gosh, do you know how uncoordinated I am? It’s just, I’m so not athletic. I don’t know why you think I would be a good coach. and I mean, this was in the early days of coaching, but of course I found out what they were talking about was not, you know, being a a soccer coach. And I, I started while I moved to the United States in between all of this and having my four kids and living in Dallas, Texas, I started my own coaching business. But Rory, I , I realized very quickly that you can have a coaching business and no customers, if no one knows who you are. And I was new to America, I had zero, zero network besides a few moms in the neighborhood.
MW (04:31):
And so it was really, I was, everyone knew me as the stay at home mom with four kids. And for me, it was, how do I, how do I do what I really wanna do when no one knows who I am? And so that’s where actually I started speaking for free anywhere and everywhere that would have me, ah, to try and get some coaching clients. And and so I was just super excited if people would sign up for a free coaching session at the end of me giving a talk at like, you know, it could have been a club or it was American business women’s association, or companies would do free brown bag lunches, and I would speak anywhere and everywhere. And really over time, I, I came to realize the thread that was running through so much of what I would talk about.
MW (05:17):
And part of it was about balance and having difficult conversations and pursuing what lights you up and saying no to what doesn’t. And I realized the thread that was running through it all was, was having more courage and daring to be braver and take a risk and risk rejection and put ourselves out there. And so that led to my first book, which was called find your courage. And it was very much an act of courage for me at the time to write it. I had four kids, seven and under, and I, I wrote it in nap times in the afternoons. And and I had a huge voice in my head that was very loud often saying, who the hell do you think you are to write a book? You know, you’re just, you didn’t get a great education in rural Australia, et cetera. But it was really me, I guess, staring to make a bet on myself and, and, and thinking, you know, I don’t wanna look back one day and think I wished I’d been braver. So that’s kind of the, that was the start of the journey that love, that led me to where I am now.
RV (06:22):
I mean, with, I mean, and I think there’s lots of, I mean, lots of people have those kinds of things. And I mean, four kids is no joke. I mean, keeping, keeping track of four kids and be like, I’m gonna write a book in my spare time, which is nap time. Which, you know, if you have four kids getting a, all four of ’em asleep at the same time might last, you like 17 minutes, if you’re lucky. Oh,
MW (06:41):
No. I mean, it was threats and bribes. Can I just be clear, you stay in your room for one hour until the bell goes, you know, like .
RV (06:49):
Yeah. But so you started that now. I, I, I rarely wanted to highlight cuz this is, you know, part of what we teach at at brand builders, you know, is you gotta go speak for free. I mean, that like, that’s how it starts. You just gotta go speak for free and get people a chance to sample you. So that’s interesting to hear that part of your story. I mean, everybody, I know that is a successful speaker. Like that’s how they started, like you just out there speaking. So I wanna talk about, so you started as coaching business us then became an author and then leveraged off that to get your, your speaking gigs. Is that how you got your first speaking gigs too, was just speaking for free until someone asked you to, if you can
MW (07:27):
Hire you. Yeah. I mean the book, the book came later, honestly, I couldn’t even have con I mean, I think I, I really lack confidence. I had a lot of self-doubt. It’s probably why I spoken so much about self-doubt because I, I doubted myself so much. So the speaking was how I got coaching clients. The book definitely came afterward. But yeah, the speaking was really crucial part of that all. And I hear, sometimes people say, oh, never speak for free. And you know, if you’ve come from being in some big role, you’ve already got some stellar reputation and you are well, you’re already an established brand and entity. Okay. Maybe that will work for you and great, but I would never have got anywhere. Had I been waiting on someone to pay me from the beginning? Cuz no one was gonna pay me cuz no one knew the value that I had.
MW (08:18):
I had to demonstrate at value. And that came from speaking for free. One was demonstrating the insight I had as a coach. People could go, oh, you know what? She’s got some, she’s got some wisdom and some expertise and some ideas that will be valuable to me. And I, and I like her, you know, it’s like kind of establishing that like this is someone that I would trust. And then over time, obviously the more I spoke, I started to actually develop a skill in speaking and kind of tapped into a latent talent that I honestly a gift. I didn’t know I had to be to be truthful. And so
RV (08:53):
How did you get the first, like when you first got paid to speak, was that basically referrals from people who had seen you
MW (09:00):
Speak at that was so, I mean the first time I ever spoke was at my kids’ preschool and then, you know, I, I had a coach, I had a coach. Yeah. And like two people showed up. But the woman who ran the preschool and the cleaning lady, so it was it was very humble or beginning, but the first paid speaking engagement one of my early clients, very early clients and I, I didn’t charge a lot of money. She worked for a big consulting firm and she had said, would you come in and speak there as part of a brown bag lunch, which was free. So I went in there and I spoke to working moms on work, life balance, and someone there was from HR and they said, we’ve got an international women’s day event coming up. We’re looking for a speaker. We would love you to come. We’ve got a, you know, how much do you charge? And I had no idea about fees and I remember saying R how’s $200. Nice. And she was so quick to say, yeah, that sounds great. And I remember thinking, I think, I, I think I went too low
RV (10:03):
yeah, yep, yep. That that’s.
MW (10:07):
But then someone was there and then, you know, I mean, and, and I, all of the paid speaking came from all of the unpaid speaking and then us the book amplified it. And then a lot of media when my first book came out and then, you know, it’s a ripple effect. Right. And you can’t, it’s easy to go. Well, it was one thing I did, but it was, I wrote for a women’s magazine for free. And then someone there connected me into Forbes and I got my own and I started writing for Forbes. And then I ended up with my own column and then, you know, so, you know, it was, and then I landed on the today show and then it was one thing after another, but there wasn’t one clear recipe. I couldn’t say, do this, then do this. It was just continually doing things that I hoped would, you know, make an impact and over time sure enough, you know, all of those little things, those daily strokes of effort, bam, you know, you get to another level
RV (11:02):
Mm-Hmm . Yeah. And so now I wanna talk about your expertise now, cuz it’s like, you know, after that, like the last several years, you really have been very specifically focused on researching around courage and being brave. And that to me is a very relevant conversation here to anyone who’s an entrepreneur or an expert or someone building a personal brand because there’s so many things to be afraid of. Like, I don’t know how to write a book. I don’t know how to go live on social media. I don’t know how to build a funnel. I don’t know how to do a demo video. I don’t know how to reach out to a litera. You’re like, I don’t know any of these, these things. And you know, of course it’s a huge part of what we talk about and teach at brand builders group. But there’s another part of it, which is just straight up old fashioned, like fear mm-hmm what do we need to know about that and getting ourselves past that?
MW (12:00):
I think you’ve gotta give yourself permission not to get it perfectly right. And to take risks and to try things and not have them land brilliantly. You know, you, you don’t know where everything and you are going to iterate and you’re gonna learn and you’re gonna evolve as you go along. And I think a mistake I see people making is thinking that they have to have the perfect plan and the perfectly the perfect clarity even. And yes, it’s great having a lot of clarity and it’s great having some one like you and the brand builders group to provide a roadmap, but still what works for one person isn’t gonna work exa you can’t copy and paste everything. We we’re all different. We, we have different things that we are good at and that we like to do. And I think give yourself permission to experiment and to iterate and to evolve as you move forward, because you’re gonna learn, well, this works for me, but this doesn’t work and that might work for the Margie, but it’s, it’s just not me.
MW (13:02):
Not everyone. I started out coaching, as I said. And I I’ve got friends that have been coaching for 25 years and they’re like, Margie, I couldn’t think of anything worse than speaking. It’s just not my thing. and, and so we are all different. Not everyone wants to write a book. You know, like not everyone loves being on Instagram and doing Insta live, you know, so sure. I think we have to, there’s something things we need to do because they really make an impact. But also just, just also trust yourself and what feels right for you. I . And where do you kind of tend to have the most resonance too, because that’s gonna make an impact in how often you do it, how well you do it, how much you’re learning and, and how successful that is for you.
RV (13:46):
And just kind of the, I hear you saying kind of like the mindset of approaching it as like yeah. Who cares? What happens? Just an experiment, like just kind of like, let’s see, let’s just see what happens and kind of go from there versus all of the pressure of like, it has to be perfect and dialed in and, and if it doesn’t cuz then it’s like, if it doesn’t work, it’s never gonna work. Like I, I, I’m not gonna work cuz we’ve had so much pressure.
MW (14:08):
Yeah. It’s like pressure, you know what? I tried that and you know what, it didn’t land brilliantly, but what did you learn from it? You know, I always looking for, what is the learning? How do I take that learning? And you know, I remember early on Roy, I was living in, in Dallas, Texas and I met someone and she said, oh Margie, you should be the expatriate wife coach, cuz I was a foreigner living in the us and I could coach other women who are wives. And, and I remember thinking, she’s like, you need to find your niche. And I was like, it just didn’t feel right. So sometimes people are gonna tell you what you need to do. And you know, I say get lots of advice and get it from people who know their stuff. Like honestly you are, you’re a great example of that, but not all advice is gonna be the right advice for you. And and I think that’s important, but wait, wait,
RV (14:58):
You mean not all advice for me is gonna be the right advice for you. I I’m just kidding. I’m just kidding guys.
MW (15:05):
I’m arguing your advice. Rory is about as good as it gets, but I, and, and of course you, you do it with in a way that obviously allows people to make it feel congruent, but I tell you what, there are a lot of experts out there. I mean, when I, I, I do experts in that can kind of give you their five point plan and it might not be congruent for you. And I think I think just being authentic is really important. And I think today, I mean, you guys talk about trust a lot. We want to deal with people that we can trust and who are real and authentic and not some overly curated version veneer that you go, well, who is it? Who is that really that person? And I think being congruent is super important and just being real and and you know, people who are, can be overly polished sometimes I think it actually can almost work against them.
RV (15:59):
Mm-Hmm yeah. Yeah. I, I would say that. Yeah. That’s, that’s totally true. So I wanna talk about the word timid for a second. Mm-Hmm I, I, you know, I think that’s a, that’s a word that we’ve talked a lot about you and I have had some conversations around what is timid exactly is how is it different? How is it different from fear? What do we need to know about the way that it functions and operates and like why it such a, why is this such a big deal?
MW (16:36):
Well, all of us can be timid at times. Of course, all of us can be everything at times we can all be bold and brave and we can all be timid and overly cautious. And I believe that humidity is, is very prevalent in a, in the world in which we live because we live in a, in a, in a climate of fear, in a culture that actually sort of feeds and, and feeds on fear and fuels a lot of it and fuels a lot of self doubt and fuels a lot of timid and humidity drives people to hold back for our taking actions that would actually serve them that would help them to learn and to grow and to open new doors of opportunity and build new connections. And so we tend to fail far more from timidity than we do from over daring.
MW (17:33):
And timid in a sense is very much, much over caution. We’re being overly cautious, we’re holding back and you could say, oh, well, it’s a personality trait, but ultimately it is. It’s a decision that we make often unconsciously to, to not take an action because we are worried about the consequences of it. And often we discount the cost of timid. There’s a steep, hidden tax that comes with timid that we’re often not present to because it’s not immediate, it’s really dramatic or obvious, but we pay that tax over time in our lives because we don’t try things. We don’t experiment. We don’t put ourselves out there. We don’t try and write the book or approach someone and, or give the talk or, or whatever it is. And that really, we don’t know what doors didn’t open, but I, I really, the reason I have a passion for helping people overcome the bias toward timidity is because I see it holding potential hostage and keeping people from really, I mean, you could say shining their light, you know, really living the biggest lives, they’re capable of living. And, and ultimately a lot of people end up languishing. They kind of get stuck procrastinating. They get stuck making excuses and settling and selling themselves short. And not only do they miss out, but everyone misses out
RV (19:00):
Mm-Hmm . Yeah. I mean, it, it’s an interesting it’s it’s like a sobering thought to go. The reason I haven’t gotten certain things in my life, maybe that I wanna have is less because I’m not qualified to do it or able to do it, but that it’s just surely from the fact that I have convinced myself to not try. And mm-hmm to do it
MW (19:28):
A AB couldn’t. Yes, that is right. And it is funny. And I, and I shared with you how, for me even starting out, it was a little voice in my head saying, who do you think you are, was like to give a talk to start honestly, a coaching business. I was like, who am I to even have my own business? And who am I to write a book? Who am I to, you know, do television or know in the more recent years do my PhD, et cetera. And I’ve just learned to identify that voice as a voice. It’s not who I am. It’s just fear. And timidity is just one expression of fear and not to give it power. Cuz too often we give that voice of Tim power call the shots it’s it’s in the driver’s seat and it doesn’t have to be that way.
MW (20:16):
I mean, that’s where courage comes into it. Courage is the decision to take action in the presence of perceived or real risks. You might fail. You mightn’t write the most brilliant book that’s ever been written. You might give a spare each and it mightn’t be brilliant. You might try something and it mightn’t be the best investment, but how will you ever know if you don’t try and how will you ever get better at it? If you don’t give yourself permission to not be brilliant starting out. And I think to your point, Rory, it’s not the barriers, the external obstacles around us that hold us back. It is the belief systems that we are buying into and the ones that fuel that timidity. And so, you know, at the end of the day, there comes a moment of choice and go, who is it I choose to be and where am I letting, where am I letting my fear of not having what it takes, keep me from taking action. And that’s, that’s having the courage to take action despite our innate, you know, timid
RV (21:19):
Mm-Hmm . I mean, it’s interesting to hear you even talk about it as like timid is this voice. That’s not who I am like, like separating it. I, I think that’s probably half the battle here is separating it and realizing that it that’s not, you it’s, it’s like a different, it’s a different, you have the ability to exercise influencer control over that thing. It is separate and independent of you and what you want.
MW (21:46):
Yeah. You know, I often think give it a name, you know, and you know, you’re, you’re in a chicken little, right. You know, and in, in my book, you’ve got this, I, chapter two is doubt your doubts and, and doubt your doubts is really doubting that, that, that voice, that, that, that shows up and, and fuels that ity. And we treat those little negative noises and those doubting voices that in a chicken little as though it’s the truth and it’s not the truth, but we treat it as though it’s, it’s the truth. And I think learning to challenge what you’re telling yourself and there’s a real physical element to it too, like really stepping in and holding ourselves powerfully. Like how would, how do you, where do you need to connect to your own inner, a brave heart, hold yourself that way and embrace the discomfort that is a prerequisite for overcoming humidity and for being brave and for taking those actions.
MW (22:38):
And the more we embrace discomfort as part and parcel of what it takes to do, what it is we really need to do and want to do, like in our heart of hearts, then actually the better, more comfortable we, we become with doing uncomfortable things. And I think it was Tony Robbins that said years ago, you know, you know, our success is proportionate to how willing we are to be uncomfortable. And I, and I kind of absolutely couldn’t agree more with that. It is uncomfortable work, but I think being successful, however, you define success, that’s never gonna happen if you stay comfortable and, and humidity just drives us to stay in our comfort zone, but of course, comfort doesn’t stay comfortable forever. And our comfort zone shrinks. And over time we become more timid and less confident, you know, more scared, more doubtful, less brave and, and courageous.
MW (23:36):
So it really the co over the course of our lives, I think we have to continually be challenging ourselves. And so to anyone who’s listening, I know that you’ve got an, an incredible audience of people doing great things and who want to do more great things, but perhaps sometimes get in their own way because they’re afraid of falling short. And I would say, give yourself permission to fall short. And, and when that little voice of timid pipes up. So thank you very much. I know you’re trying to keep me safe now, shut up and, and step forward anyway.
RV (24:11):
Yeah. I mean, that, that is powerful. And so tactical, I think, and so, so useful where, where Dr. Margie, should people go to connect with you? I know obviously you’ve written for a long time for Forbes. So some of them are to be already reading your Forbes column, but like where where do you want people to go? If they wanna like, learn more about what Dr. Margie is doing?
MW (24:33):
Yeah. Look, I am on, I’m pretty much all social media to Insta Twitter, Facebook and LinkedIn. Please connect with me. I’d love you to connect with me there, but you can also go to my website, Margie war.com. And if you type in slash live bravely, you can sign up for my free course on how you can be braver. It’s a four part video course that I created that is share some of my, some stories and some, and some really practical ways that you can step it up in your own life to overcome whatever fear is and is getting in your way.
RV (25:11):
I love it. Well, we’ll put links to that over in the show notes and Dr. Margie, thank you for this. I mean, this, I think just strikes right at the core of that, like that courage and, and winning that battle with that little voice. I mean, if you can, if you can beat that little voice every day than you, like pretty much can do just about anything.
MW (25:31):
Amen. Very true. Well, thank you so much for having me RO great to talk to you. All
RV (25:36):
Right. We wish you the best. We’ll follow your journey. Everyone. Go check out Dr. Margie and keep coming back. We’ll catch you next time. Bye-Bye

Ep 238: 400k TikTok Followers in 40 Days with Hilary Billings and Marshall Seese Jr.

RV (00:07):
Hey brand builder, Rory Vaden here. Thank you so much for taking the time to check out this interview as always, it’s our honor to provide it to you for free and wanted to let you know there’s no big sales pitch or anything coming at the end. However, if you are someone who is looking to build and monetize your personal brand, we would love to talk to you and get to know you a little bit and hear about some of your dreams and visions and share with you a little bit about what we’re up to to see if we might be a fit. So if you’re interested in a free strategy call with someone from our team, we would love to hear from you. You can do that at brand builders, group.com/pod call brand builders, group.com/podcast. We hope to talk to you soon.
RV (00:54):
I cannot wait to introduce you to our friends, Hillary and Marshall. So these two, they are a dynamic duo. They’re a couple, they are viral video creators. Here’s probably the only thing that you really need to know. They have amassed a total of 800 million views on their videos, 800, hundred million. And they do that across a lot of different platforms. They both have Facebook watch channels. Hillarys is called the Hillary show. Marshalls is called the Marshall show, but they work together and they, one of the things that happened here recently is that Hillary went from zero to 500,000 row to 500,000 followers on TikTok in 60 days, about 60 days. She now has over 870,000. She’s had 19 million likes there. And so we’re just gonna talk about that. they’re close friends of ours. They are also clients, the brand builders group, Hillary is also one of our strategists.
RV (02:06):
And so this was like, wait, what, what, what the, wait, what, so anyways, here to talk to us about that, Hillary and Marshall.
HB (02:15):
Woo. Hey Rory,
MS (02:16):
thanks for having us Rory excited to be on it.
RV (02:18):
You guys, I mean, you’re killing it. You are freaking killing it and I love you and I am so jealous and mad at you. so I need you to teach, teach me your ways. So let’s just, yeah, you worry, you got me. All right. So, so talk to me about TikTok, cuz like I don’t, I’m not getting it. Like why did you use the platform? How did you get started? How in the world did you get a half a million followers in two freaking months? I think I’ve got like 50 likes in two years. using this thing. So tell, tell me your ways.
HB (02:59):
It’s so funny, Rory, because I go back to attending like the revenue engine and the high traffic strategies events, where we talk a lot about the power of being first to market. Right. And we have a really unique situation right now in the world with platforms like TikTok, like clubhouse, where personal brands have the ability to actually create a foundation and grow upon that in ways that you just can’t do nowadays on YouTube or Facebook or even Instagram. And I was probably the most vocal person in as, as a strategist and as an attendee that didn’t wanna do TikTok. Mm I was tired and I was doing all this other content and building my brand in other ways. And it just seemed like, well, one more thing I gotta do that I didn’t wanna focus on. And I think that this really came down to a divine intervention of forcing me to take time away.
HB (03:50):
So what happened, you know, our, our primary platforms are on Facebook and the week that I decided to get on TikTok, the only reason I did that is because was a glitch on the Facebook platform. Mm. Which essentially demonetize my page because of something on Facebook’s backend. So we were not able to make any money on it for an undetermined amount of time, potentially. They didn’t know how long it would take to fix this issue. And we had just posted a video that was viral and I was sitting there and I was watching us lose millions and millions of views in revenue and it was making me batty. So I needed to do something to take my mind off of what was this mess that was happening over here and just decided, well, I guess now’s the time let’s make some TikTok videos. And I just started posting and repurposing content much like we do with the content diamond old videos that I liked that I thought would work for the audience based upon what I was seeing on TikTok. And it just took off from there. It was, it was crazy and unexpected. And we did 400,000 followers in 40 days and then half 1,000,0 60 days. And now we’re own pace to hit a million followers by next month.
RV (05:04):
Wow. And do you think, so what, what I hear you saying there is, it’s not so much, oh, we had this am. I mean, we had, we, we, we came up with this amazing content exclusively for TikTok you’re repurposing content that you had other places. When I hear you say that in the, especially the reference to clubhouse, you’re saying that there’s basically an optimal window that you can get inside these platforms and have this accelerated growth. I mean, is that true? Is that a big part of it or not? What, what
MS (05:38):
It’s part of it? I think there is definitely when a, when a platform first gets going, they’re trying to get creators excited. And the best way to do that is to get things, you know, going viral. You reach a point of saturation to where that doesn’t become as optimal anymore. And now you have to, you know, make the way for revenue streams like advertising TikTok. However, I will caveat saying is an interesting use case because they came out even recently in the past couple months and specifically said, we want, we are giving people content. They, we think they want to watch. It’s the only platform that defaults you to a feed based upon what they think you wanna see, not who you follow. You actually have to scroll to a different area to see the only the people that you follow. Mm. So they are trying to keep themselves more open to, you know, profiles exploding if it deems that that’s content that people want to see. So I would say the ability to grow a following on TikTok is, is good. It’s still very good right now and probably will be for a little while. Interesting.
HB (06:42):
And I would also add to that again, this goes back to one of the tenants that we talk about all the time in brand builders group, which we got ourselves into this predicament where, you know, we had put all of our eggs into a piece of rented real estate, right? Mm-Hmm we were betting on a rented real estate as to holding our revenue stream and with a glitch, everything went away for a week and with, through no fault of her own and you know, and the platform was working very hard to fix it, but that is also a piece of just remembering that you want to make sure that you are owning those relationships and how can we own those over time? So we’re not just driving people to a revenue stream that we don’t have control over long term. And that,
RV (07:22):
That glitch that you’re talking about was not the worldwide glitch where Facebook went down for four hours. This was another one that was only on the back end for people like you that were like creators that have monetized. Cause you have to, you have to have what like 10,000 followers on your watch page to be able to monetize it. Some like that.
MS (07:40):
Yeah. There’s a whole getting monetize on Facebook is a very difficult process that requires it’s. It’s not just objective there, there are a lot of subjective qualifications with it as well.
RV (07:49):
Gotcha. So what about, let’s talk about revenue on TikTok. So I I’m curious about, I mean, other than the broad awareness kind of thing, how do you actually make money on TikTok and, and, you know, so I, I guess I understand a couple components. I understand the idea of like, Hey, a lot of people are hearing about me the same way they, they, they might hear about anybody. And from that there’s some, some runoff in terms of like recognition that you can parlay into other things. And then I also understand brand deal. Like I have a large platform. And so somebody pays me some money to talk about their product or company or service to my audience. Is that, is that how you make revenue on TikTok or is there there’s, there’s something else
MS (08:41):
There’s also a creator fund. Yeah. That is very small right now that if you have over 10,000 followers, you can apply to became a, become a part of, and that will ebb and flow and grow as they figure out what their advertising model looks like. Yeah.
HB (08:55):
So if you’re running through like the basic paids acronym, right? So you’ve got products where you can be advocating doing brand deals, doing product placements within your videos, you could be doing ads and affiliates. So ads is essentially the creator fund, right? Because they’re putting a basic ad on the front that you see when you log in, it’s not on a specific piece of content that shift in the future. We don’t know where that’s going. We highly recommend that anybody that meets the criteria for video hours watched in the followings should apply because it’s just additional monthly revenue that’s coming in that you don’t have to worry about. And you can withdraw. I think it’s every 30 or 60 days. Then you have affiliates, right? So a lot of products give you an affiliate link. You can put that in your profile. You can say, Hey, I love this type of makeup.
HB (09:41):
Go to my link in my profile for my 20% off code. And then you get an affiliate check, right? For everyone of your followers that can go there. You can drive information to courses. I know we have some clients Ram builders that do that, that they’ll utilize the content that they’re doing on TikTok to push back to their websites, back to their courses, back to their one-on-one coaching. So their, their services, then you’ve got deals right for the D which could be, you’re endorsing a product you are saying, Hey, this is the best makeup I’ve ever had. And let me do a creative TikTok to show you you that. So there’s a lot of different ways over time that you can monetize that outside of just building a following. I will also say, and I think we’re gonna talk about this a little bit, but going into the future of, of how influencers, I, I really dislike that term, but how influencers are able to monetize, we’re seeing already that the big content creators, right?
HB (10:39):
Like the Logan Pauls of the world, the top talkers, they are getting acting deals. They are getting huge spokes model deals and they are able to take and monetize off of that platform because they have such large followings. But back when I was an on-camera host, it used to be, I’d submit my resume to, to a network or an agency or a company in the hopes that they would pick me based upon my talent. Well, now talent is table stakes and your content and your personal brand is table stakes. And now it’s a matter of what else can you bring to these opportunities to show that you can add a value and make something take off. And I think that long term we’re gonna see that out more and more into monetization strategies for content creators.
RV (11:22):
Yeah. I mean, I, I, I noticed that too, that it’s like, it’s not just about, who’s talented. It’s about who can bring an audience. And yeah, there’s a huge part of that. And now that we all have our opportunities to bring our audiences to things that has real value, and you’re seeing people at cast Y you know, the, the thing that AJ and I noticed recently was on the voice that Ariana Grande has like she has hundreds of millions of followers and she was the new coach. Meanwhile, Blake Shelton and Kelly, and John legend, who are in my eyes much more well known to majority of the generations have only four or five, like, you know, a few million followers. And I, I can’t help, but think that’s no a us not an accident that she got herself cast for that fourth coaching spot.
MS (12:18):
I mean, another great example is only murders in the building, which is our, our, our current, or I guess we just finished it TV obsession with Steve Martin and Martin short, I mean, two of my all time, favorite actor comedians. And, but the third party is Celina Gomez, the second largest following on all of Instagram. And there’s so many people, especially younger generations watching this show because of Selena who had no idea who Steve Martin and Martin short were. And so it’s, it’s, it’s a really great, and the chemistry is great. It’s a really beautiful example of what that can look like when done. Well, I
HB (12:53):
Think it also speaks to, and we talk about this a lot R and brand builders, whether it’s with a book, right? Whether you’re speaking career, whatever you’re trying to do, we want to show that you have a profitable business model, right. And if you’re able to bring a following to that book proposal, if you’re able to bring a following to as a, as a keynote speaker, you know, whether it’s through YouTube or whatever, that, that particular revenue stream is that you’re trying to build through your primary business model that is attractive to whomever you’re trying to work with. So this applies across a across industries, I believe.
RV (13:28):
Yeah, well it, so the, on the topic of building an audience, one of the things that I know has been a little bit of a pain point for y’all and, and, and for, and for a lot of people is the intellectual property discussion about TikTok. And you know, there, there are some strategies that people use to grow a following that kind of go in the face as you know, of some of this copyright stuff. And I think that’s one of the things creators were worried initially about TikTok was like, oh my gosh, like anyone can take my video and post it on TikTok and now belongs to them. So what are some of the, what are some of the things that you’ve learned there in that kind of like I P intellectual property, right. Sort of world, as it relates to TikTok specifically,
HB (14:19):
Do you wanna start with that one former? I,
RV (14:21):
Why don’t we take a former as a former lawyer Marshall, former IP attorney who like to officially comment
MS (14:29):
So copyright, and there’s a big misconception around this. A lot of people have with copyright, as soon as you publish a work you have copyright protection. Now you can also go a further step and register that with the copyright office, with the government, you don’t have to, to have protection. So once you publish something, say on YouTube or TikTok or Facebook, you know, you have a date and a timestamp that has been released to the general public. You have copyright protection in that now enforcing that is an entirely other bag. And, you know, some of the platforms, Facebook has a really great rights manager where they will track and look for similar videos and show them to you. So you can say, Hey, yes, this was approved or no, this was not approved. Not every platform is developed and sophisticated enough to have that. Interesting yet it will go there. It’s coming. Yeah. And so, you know, we are very active about takedowns and, and Hillary can probably speak to, to the takedown side of things, but that’s, that’s an important part. And also a large reason why we put our content on multiple different platforms to, to kind of, you know, put our stake in the ground and make sure there is no, I don’t have to show YouTube that we put on Instagram first. You know, if you’re putting it everywhere at the same time,
HB (15:41):
I think there’s a couple of misconceptions that we get push back on, which I would like to, to clarify for people right now to help them and, and to help us too. One just because things out in the public does not mean that it’s in public domain.
MS (15:54):
Yeah. That is not what public domain means.
HB (15:56):
And that is something that we get pushed back on a lot is what do you mean? I found this on TikTok it’s in the public domain. No, it was publicly shared. That does not mean that you get to put it out on your own platform. So, Marshall, what is the definition of being in public domain? Just so we can all get, yeah,
RV (16:10):
That’s a good question.
MS (16:12):
Copyrighted piece of work goes into the public domain, which is a legal term 100 years after the author’s death.
HB (16:23):
So we can all safely assume that anything that has been created for a video on YouTube, Facebook, Snapchat, Instagram radio. It’s not going
MS (16:30):
Public domain anytime soon. not in, in your lifetime. Most likely.
HB (16:34):
And then the second piece is
RV (16:36):
I think a lot of people misunderstand that I really, I mean, totally like that, that, that, so, so you’re welcome to quote the Bible freely, but yes, nothing on social media ever. So, so, but you have,
MS (16:50):
But that’s where the van go. Exhibit is so popular. You’ve seen van goes that is popping up everywhere because Vango works just went into the public domain. Oh,
RV (16:58):
Interesting. Yeah, we’re going, we’re going next week. There you go. We’re going to a Vango exhibit in Nashville next week.
MS (17:05):
That’s because we hit the a hundred year mark after his death. Yay. So, and you’re
HB (17:08):
Welcome. so, so with that, I think something else that a lot of new creators went, they come on, the scenes don’t do is they don’t read the community standards on the platforms in which they’re creating on. I think that’s
RV (17:20):
Pretty safe to say Hillary, I don’t see anybody reading the community guidelines. Like, let me scroll down 73 pages here and figure out what all this Gar says pretty safe. Absolutely.
HB (17:33):
That’s and that’s a, okay. But with that, there is a very, a very specific community standard on every single platform. Mm-Hmm this, this applies to every platform. So whether it’s it’s TikTok, whether it’s Snapchat, you are not allowed to post somebody else’s content without their explicit permission. I will say it again, because I know a lot of influencer gurus out there tend to push this idea of just jacking a viral video, downloading it. And re-uploading it to your own platform as a way to build your following. If you do that, you are in direct violation of community standard for any platform
MS (18:09):
And the law and
HB (18:10):
The law, throwing that out there and the law, which means that if you were to somehow make money off of that video, we can come after you for damages. So that’s like worst case scenario for you. Best case scenario for you is we get that video taken down. We can also, because platforms are now trying to prioritize and protect creators and work with their creators to protect their IP. We have taken down accounts with millions of followers because they really continually, again and again, posted videos of ours without our explicit written permission. So you need to license that content from another creator, if you’re going to do that. And that needs to come with written permission and possibly even payment of some sort, if that’s what they want. So it’s just safer to create your own everybody, cuz we, we have, and we will take down accounts for stealing our stuff.
RV (19:00):
Well, it’s not, I mean, I mean, I see that all the time, a lot of times it’s like puppy dog videos or military videos or like these really heartwarming videos. And you’re saying that, that I think it’s tricky. So a share button like hitting the share button is okay, but, but not downloading the video and then reposting it to your account. Like technically that’s,
MS (19:23):
Let’s it this way. If you’re utilizing the tools within the platform to share and or create with something, then they have built that into the terms and conditions that we as creators have signed and agreed to when putting our copyright content onto their platform. If you are doing something that requires a plugin or some sort of external third party website, or you’re having to rip something or download something, I can pretty much tell you right now, that will not be okay because
HB (19:51):
What’s happening is when you use the share button, when you’re using the retweet button, when you’re using duet features on TikTok, you are still giving, I haven’t heard of that one
RV (20:00):
Yet. Duet features on TikTok. I need you to explain that, but I kind of get the gist anyways, keep going.
HB (20:06):
So you’re, whenever you use a feature that’s built into a platform you’re still giving credit to the original creator. When you take something from somebody else’s page and re-upload it organically on your own, you are saying that that is your video and that you own that video. So you have the ability to post that video, which is untrue. And that is a violation of our IP. Does that make
RV (20:27):
Sense? I mean, everybody does this. I mean, everybody does. I mean, I like major, major are celebrities and huge accounts and, and
HB (20:36):
We don’t take downs on celebrity accounts
MS (20:38):
Too. I mean, we it’s, I’ve always said the video industry is just slightly lagging the music industry as a musician. I went through this in 2001, 2002, 2003 with Napster mm-hmm and look what happened to the industry. You know, it, it took having to find an entirely different business model to truly kind of get piloting out of the mainstream. And you know, there was nothing legal about it. That didn’t mean that everybody wasn’t doing it. It, so it’s, it’s really a matter of what types of digital rights protections can be put in place. I’m actually very excited about blockchain technology for this purpose, but that’s a whole other conversation and, and there’s, you know, video is gonna, is gonna have to figure it out as far as that type of you know,
RV (21:28):
But you guys had, you actually had if I remember, right, not major, always talker, but you guys had a video about parallel parking. Wasn’t there a parallel parking video that you posted on Facebook that went viral and then somebody else posted it on TikTok. Like how
HB (21:44):
Many didn’t even do well on Facebook, which was the very, a frustrating part for me. Oh, that’s interesting. And I, I had written it off as a bad video mm-hmm and somebody else took it and put it up on their TikTok. I didn’t post it to my TikTok cuz I thought that it was a bad video and we lost 40 million views. Yeah. And there was national press international press all tied to this account that didn’t own the video. We took down the account, he created a new account and we took down his account again and you know, many people were very upset with us. We had, I think 30,000 videos that, of this particular TikTok that were uploaded illegally that we went through systematically and pulled them down one at a time. Wow.
RV (22:29):
That’s crazy. So, so, so 30,000 people like used whatever plugin or did a whatever tool they used to rip the video and then, and then put it up. You have to go through through that, that that’s, what’s so hard about it, right. Is like who’s gonna sit there and do this for 30,000 videos. But, but the other concept that jumps out about that to me was how a video video that didn’t perform well on Facebook, the exact same video got 40 million, 40 million views. Like that’s interest. That’s a fascinating concept to me to go, what we think is going, oh, well, you know, I guess it wasn’t that good. It’s like how there’s more to the story here about the algorithms and how’s stuff gets picked up and you just don’t. I mean, what’s the explanation for that?
HB (23:14):
I think there’s a number of things. And, and what was interesting is even looking at the data on the back end of all of those stolen videos is that only a few of them had major views. Right. But I, I think part of it is, you know, depending upon the platform, right, because TikTok to face book to Instagram, to YouTube, they’re all serving different demographics. And and then depending upon your audience, right on your profile, who, who are you serving, what audience is watching your stuff. So maybe we post it and it doesn’t do well, but somebody else’s audience is a better fit for it. There there’s just so many variables that can go into something like this. And I do see often that videos that do well for us on TikTok are not the same videos that are doing well for us and other platforms and vice versa. And I think part of that is just age group and what they want to watch. So what I learned for this experience is not to judge the quality of a video just because it’s not taking off in one place. But to see how I can utilize it across multiple platforms and leverage that piece of content.
RV (24:18):
What if you have videos that all consistently underperform on all platforms should I be worried about that? Does that mean that I might have a crappy video? We should probably talk about how to make your videos
HB (24:30):
More consumable you know, and that’s something that I talked about. I, I did an article for entrepreneur on, you know, the, the 400,000 TikTok followers in 40 days. And that’s one of them is, is, you know, really consider how the platform wants you to create and distribute con intent. When we talk about the content diamond, I think a lot of people mistakenly believe that they’re just gonna take the same video, you know, cut it down to the time requirement for that platform, throw it up and it’s gonna do great. But the truth of the matter is you need to look at what are the tools that the platform’s giving you on TikTok. It’s giving you songs, it’s giving you the ability to send, do duets and, and utilize these trending sounds or these trending hashtags or these E even trending ways of compiling your videos, right? And you have all these different, fun things that, that you can do with your, your content. And I think it’s really important to look at that. You know, Instagram has primarily been square with TikTok it’s all vertical video. Youtube has primarily been more horizontal video. So being able to understand the way that the platform wants you to consume and wants you to to utilize content is gonna be a big player, I think moving forward especially as they’re all trying to differentiate themselves.
RV (25:43):
Yes. Yeah. Is there, so on that note, like in terms of a video on TikTok, like I think about a video that I maybe post on YouTube, I mean, other than kind of knowing like, Hey, maybe the audience skews younger, although I feel like that’s probably changing or destined to change here before too long people are jumping over. Is there anything I need to know about how, how I should edit my videos on TikTok? Or and then I, I would say the other thing is kind of like the, the features, like, what are, are there, are there certain key features? Like, you know, you mentioned a few of these duets and trending sounds and trending hashtags. What are those?
HB (26:29):
Do you want us to take this one to start? No, you can. So I think for starters, like a great thing for you to do is just go to the, for anybody is to go to their four you page, which is what your TikTok is going to send you to anyway, when, as your landing page, when you open up the app and just start scrolling and seeing what’s working. Right. And I think you’ll find when I first got Onik TikTok and I showed Marshall, his response was, oh, it’s human cartoons. , that’s
RV (26:59):
What this is nice.
HB (27:00):
Yep.
MS (27:01):
And so yeah, Sunday
HB (27:01):
Comics. Got it. Yeah. So, so our question became, how do we make even, you know, these, these difficult or deep co you know, topics, how do we make ’em cartoonish? How do we make ’em more over the top? You know, there’s, there’s a couple of clients with brand builders that have very serious topics that they’re dealing with, whether that’s death or divorce, or, you know, in these really traumatic events. And they’re able to take those topics and find ways to poke fun at them, or find ways to poke fun at themselves as moms. And just making it more of that lighthearted, I think also on TikTok, at least because the platform was built on under a minute, initially, you’re gonna have much quicker edits than you would have on another platform. I’m gonna
MS (27:41):
Pull a pandemic moment and go let our dog in because we all live in this world. Now I’ll be right
RV (27:46):
Back. Nice.
HB (27:48):
He says, I dunno if y’all can hear him, but he is just downstairs and making a ruckus. And we had a conversation before we started this of okay. Let’s just hope he makes it through without, without
RV (27:57):
Working at us. It’s all good. Hear it faintly. But talk, tell me about those features. Yeah. So the light, the
HB (28:04):
Them up for you right now. Yeah.
RV (28:05):
The quick cuts make sense. The lightheartedness, I mean, that, that makes sense.
HB (28:11):
So when we come to one of the other things that’s interesting about TikTok is that you have this discover tab, which is you have your home tab, and then you have a little discover tab. And what the discover tab will do for you, which I think is so fast in comparison to most other platforms, is it will tell you now Twitter does this too, as far as like here’s the trending hashtags, but what TikTok does for you as far as how we understand it as these are the, the hashtags that it wants you to create content around, because that’s what it’s pushing out right now. Oh, so you can go through and, and look at, okay, we got hashtag arts and crafts, hashtag relationships, hashtag productivity, and you can go and see what’s trending within those and make content that fits within those topics. So that’s a really interesting feature that talk’s actually encouraging you to utilize that
MS (29:02):
There’s also, and again, something pass is that people
RV (29:06):
You’re just saying, you click on the discover button on the bottom and all those hashtags that like, if you’re gonna use a hashtag or if you’re gonna create a video natively for the platform, it’s like, use one of those.
HB (29:19):
If you don’t know what to create, I would go to the discover tab and it’ll give you 30 to how I’m probably in unlimited now of hashtags to utilize that it’s currently trending and pushing content for
MS (29:32):
Tiktok also has some really great creator resources online that give again, nobody reads just like terms and conditions, community guidelines, but they tell you how to succeed on the platform. Like do this immediately make this, your first shot, do this, and then this, and then they’ll tell you how to create and construct a good video that will work well on their platform. It’s, you know, beautiful kind of PDF and other types of, you
RV (29:57):
Know, they’re saying on just on TikTok website, mm-hmm
HB (30:00):
yeah. Interesting. They, and that’s, I think the thing that a lot of people don’t understand when they first get onto a platform is that these platforms want you to be successful and they’re doing what they can to try to help you, especially when you first create a new account. You might notice that your first videos get more views than your subsequent videos and what the platform is trying to do, trying to get your account to push off. So we talk a lot about saving the best for first, when you’re not dealing with a, you know, a sales audience, same thing, what are the videos that you have? How strong can you come out the gate? How consistent can you come out the gate to let the platform help you and utilize that natural momentum? And I think that’s one of the things that really worked for us or worked for me when I started my TikTok page was we had really strong videos out the gate and TikTok was able to run with those and gave us that initial boost that we were then able to continue to build that momentum. How
RV (30:54):
Frequently were you publishing?
HB (30:57):
I think when we first started, I was doing a video a day. It was not that frequent.
MS (31:01):
It, it was, it was a a day. And then you reached a certain point, I think, two weeks in. And you started to do every other day mm-hmm and kind of slowly started to dial into what was a sustainable rhythm. Yeah.
HB (31:11):
Yeah. And I think what’s also interesting about TikTok is that maybe unlike other platforms, although I don’t know, I feel like it’s all changing with TikTok. I think there’s a, a understanding that if a video doesn’t perform right away, then that means that the videos are dead. But the truth of the matter is, is that it can take a few days to a few weeks for a TikTok to take off. And, and then when that happens, the ones around it that you’ve put out will get a boost. Right. And so I would encourage people, never to judge the performance of a TikTok based upon like on its face, how it’s doing, but just keep creating and just keep putting out consistently. And again, there’s a lot of things. Tiktok is also interesting because of its age demographic, how the platform is trying to protect younger viewers and certain requirements that it wants you to have with video quality lighting. In order for the algorithm, to be able to know that the content is safe for younger viewers, and this is all available on their website. And this is just one of those things that if you are serious about being a creator, spend an hour and go read through all these materials, and it’ll tell you how you need to set up the shot to make sure that the algorithm doesn’t accidentally deprioritize a video, because it can even see what’s going on in the shot, right. Something as simple as that can,
RV (32:31):
Can deter something fascinating. I mean, even as you guys talk, like you can tell, like you mentioned earlier, you don’t like the word influencer and it’s like, the word creator is a much better term. I mean, you’re reading these stuff, you’re familiar with all the policies. Like it, it also strikes me as it’s very professional. It’s a job. Like you’re tracking things, you’re doing it consistently. Like this is not a, oh, I just like make some funny videos, like in my spare time and throw ’em up there. Like you’re, you’re working, you’re working at this. And I think it’s important for people to see that just like working at anything. And and, and right when you start anything, you have to work hard and fast and consistently, and there’s this like some natural velocity that you gotta create early on. I do have one more question in terms of advice for new Tuckers, but before we do that, where do you want people to go? If they wanna link up with you guys and get connected to, to, to you and maybe watch some of your viral videos?
HB (33:26):
I think the best place to go is probably just my website. Cuz you can find all the links there. Hillary billings.com, H I L a R Y B I L L I N gs.com. That’ll have all the links to everything and you can also get my free confidence load book as well. If you’re interested in that. And we we’ll take you on a journey from there.
RV (33:45):
I like it. I like it, but we’ll put links to that. So first if you have someone that’s new to TikTok, I mean, you mentioned like the ha the discovery trick is pretty cool. I actually was just noticed that for the first time, the other day, you mentioned duets, which I have never heard about. I’m gonna have to figure out that, but like what else, what else in terms of like practical advice or things that we should be doing, if we’re, if we’re new or if we like, okay, I need to get, I need to get serious about this.
HB (34:14):
I think for anybody that wants to be a content creator across any platform, or just in general, especially if you’re new, you and you’re starting off to this, it’s really important to take an experimental mentality. I think especially early on in my content creation, I held every piece of content, so precious and so close to me and was basing my success off the result of that video versus the system that I was putting into place to make the video. And we don’t have control over what something does, but when you take an experimental approach and say, okay, I’m gonna make 30 videos and I’m gonna throw ’em all up there and we’ll see what happens. And that’s exactly the approach that I took when I started TikTok was, well, I’m gonna post a video a day. Let’s try a different genre every day. Let’s try this one, let’s try that one and see what’s working.
HB (34:59):
And then at that point, you’ll have a data set to then work off of and say, oh, interesting. These ones worked for me. Let me do more of those. Let’s see what happens if I do more of those, oh, those aren’t working. What if I do this type of video in this genre, or try this trend or try this TikTok dance all of that can come into play, but it’s, I think that the art of mastery and we were talking about this, I think it was last month, come without holding that content so close to you. You have to be able to let it go and move on and let it go and move on in order to continue to become better.
RV (35:31):
Ah, I love it. I love it guys. Well, thank you so much for this. I mean, I learned a ton here. It’s just crazy how the world is changing and looking at this. And I mean, TikTok is powerful. It it’s honestly like it’s really good at at least mine is it’s serving up things that I’m actually interested in and funny and inspiring. And like, it, it I’ll tell you it’s a whole lot better than TV. It does a better if a job than TV does at like putting stuff in front of me that I wanna see. So keep going. I mean, this is cool. I wanna make sure we’ve got good people out there leading the world of TikTok creators and you guys are awesome. We appreciate your wisdom. We’re, we’re always cheering for you. And you know, we’ll be, we’ll be following your journey. We love you guys. Thanks Rory.