Ep 514: The Science of Persuasive Presentations with Terri Sjodin
RV (00:02):
Well, it’s always an honor when I get to bring to you someone who is a friend, a longtime friend, and someone that I’m a fan of, someone who I would consider a mentor and a coach, somebody that I’ve learned from for years and years and years. And that’s what’s gonna happen today. We have TerriSjodin actually Terri and I both share a history with the National Speakers Association, and she also, like me, she was inducted into the CPAE, the Council Peers of Award award for Excellence, which is the National Speakers Association Professional Speaking Hall of Fame. For 25 years, she has worked as the founder of SHO Dean Communications. She specializes in public speaking sales training. It’s a consulting firm, and she’s a New York Times bestselling author. She’s been featured on the Today Show, Bloomberg, CNN, and just lots of other major, you know, talk shows, TV, radio also has become really popular as a LinkedIn learning instructor. And she has a new book out called Presentation Ready. Improve your Sales Presentation Outcomes and Avoid the 12 Most Common Mistakes. Terri, welcome to the show, friend. Thank you,
Speaker 2 (01:14):
Rory. I adore you. Thank you. I appreciate the opportunity. It’s fun,
RV (01:18):
So, one of the things that we were talking about is this book in a sense is a little bit more academic, I guess we’ll say, than some of your other books. So talk us through what, how the academics land, why the academics land, and exactly what was some of the research that went into putting this together?
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Oh, I love it. Thank you for asking. So yes I’m going on almost 30 years now as a full-time professional speaker and trainer. Come on,
RV (01:49):
Come on. 30 years, full-time. We need to get you a watch or something, man.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
I, I know. It’s crazy. And, you know, and I think as you and I talk about the evolution of a speaking career, you know, each piece builds on the next piece. And so you can grow and expand in a variety of different ways. My emphasis has always been in the area of public speaking and persuasive presentation skills. And the first book that kind of put me on the map, if you will, was called Sales Speak, which addressed the nine biggest sales presentation mistakes that professionals make. So fast forward, as we’re rolling into 2019, I’m like, wow, you know, we’re, we’re coming up on almost 20 year anniversary of that book. It would be wonderful to do a deep dive research study and do a formal study and ask, are these still the, the most common mistakes? And if so, why? And if not, why not?
Speaker 2 (02:42):
So I reached out to a colleague of mine who’s the head of the communications department at San Diego State University, full confession, my alma mater. And she said, yo, this would be really interesting to do a joint venture as an alumni pairing with faculty and students at the campus. So we ran the first phase of the study, and it was focused on a specific question. Does making a sales presentation mistake matter? Does it cost someone a win or a deal or an opportunity? And we did it using a formal Qualtrics platform. Again, almost 2,500 professionals participated in the study, and we garnered all of the content from people who only sold a product service or cause, meaning that their livelihood depended on their ability to build and deliver a persuasive presentation. And my promise was, if we were gonna do this kind of research, then there should be no research about us without us, all of it should come from salespeople. So that was really the underpinning of where the research came from. And then the findings of course, evolved over time.
RV (03:47):
Mm-Hmm,
Speaker 2 (03:58):
Yeah, great question. So yes we found, we were able to verify that the nine mistakes were still playing out. There were three new additional mistakes that added to the list and what was really painful and, and shows, you know, it’s just about resilience. And you and I can talk about this, but, you know, so we were really excited. We launched the first phase of the results report on March 5th, 2020, and it was amazing for all of two weeks,
RV (05:18):
Hybrid or in person, doesn’t matter.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
Did not matter. All the 12 mistakes still played out.
RV (05:25):
Fascinating. So which one, which one of the original nine do you think is most applicable to personal brands? Right. So, so, you know, anyone who’s speaker, author, coach, or a, a lot of professional service providers listen to this, right? Chiropractors, doctors, lawyers, anyone using their personal brand to like, grow their business, direct sales real estate, mortgage,
Speaker 2 (05:55):
All of
RV (05:55):
It.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
So so I believe, and very passionately in the power of the spoken word, no email, text message, or viral video will ever replace it. One, human being speaking to another in real time can shift everything. So to your point, whether somebody sells or promotes a product, a service, or a cause, wherever they are, they, they made up the body of these research participants. And there were actually three mistakes that rose to the top, regardless of gender, regardless of generation, regardless of how many people, how many years of experience people had. So the number three biggest mistake that most people self-confessed, which was also in phase one, was that most people had a tendency to conclude at the end of a presentation, but they did not close. They didn’t have an ask the number two biggest mistake that most people,
RV (06:56):
People, sec, hold on a second. Can I just wanna double tap on that and zoom in there on that one. So what’s the difference between concluding and closing?
Speaker 2 (07:03):
I love that question. So a conclusion as a wrap up, right? A close is your specific call to action. What do you want people to do as a result of the message? So what you’ll notice is when somebody’s giving a presentation, they might say, okay, so do you have any questions? And the listener will say, Nope. And you’ll say, great. Okay, thank you so much. So if there’s anything we can do, like, don’t, you know, please let us know. Call us. Call us. Isn’t a close, A close is an action step. What do you want the people to do as a result of the message? So a simpler, easier line, and we can get into that
RV (07:58):
So you’re, and you’re for a dec you’re asking them to make a decision in some regard also. Yeah. Right.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
Whether you’re asking them to set up the next appointment time, whether you’re asking them to make a commitment to give you a referral or asking them to make a decision right then and there to say yes and move forward. Cut a check, sign the contract. Mm-Hmm.
RV (08:20):
Speaker 2 (08:44):
It’s horrifying. And, and we, I mean, I work with some incredible people and they’ll say, oh my gosh, I’m alu, I’m not a closer. Oh, don’t,
RV (08:54):
Don’t concluder. Don’t be a concluder, don’t a con. Okay. All right. What was, what was the second most
Speaker 2 (09:00):
Number two biggest sales presentation mistake that people self confess? Remember, these are be based on self-identification. Okay. is that they are far too informative in nature rather than persuasive. They data dump. Mm. Overly informative versus persuasive.
RV (09:16):
So
Speaker 2 (09:17):
There’s a lot of reasons for that. Like, the biggest one is there’s no risk in being informative. We don’t hear, no, we don’t get pushback while we’re being informative. And it’s like, somewhere along the line, people started feeling like, I know maybe if I just give enough information to people, then they’ll just be able to sell themselves. And, and that’s lovely. But that’s, that’s not how adult decision making processing works. So
RV (09:39):
So how does it work then? Like what, so I think I know what informative looks like. I’m basically just spewing in information and facts and you know, ideas at you.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
Yes. Data dumping is part of that overly informative phase. But okay, so I’ll get really academic here. In communication, there are three types of presentations, informative, persuasive, and ceremonial. An informative presentation by design is supposed to be unbiased. It’s supposed to tell all sides of the story. It’s supposed to be cooperative versus competitive, and it’s sole purpose is to promote learning. That’s why you’re there. So unless you’re going out into the field and you’re like, hi, Brett, all the material of all my competitors, because I just wanted you to see everything that’s out there, and you can pick anyone you want to, because quite frankly I’m not attached to the outcome. It doesn’t matter to me. I’m not gonna profit. I’m not gonna do any, like, I’m just here to be a philanthropist of information. I mean, if you, that’s the only way that you’re really authentically informative.
Speaker 2 (10:43):
A persuasive presentation by design has intent. It means that you want somebody to do something as a result of the message. And if you are working on promoting your personal brand, if you are selling a product, a service, or a cause, you are very intentional. You want them to work with you, you want them to work with your company, you want them to do it now. So I, I’m trying to help people to just love that, like own it and love it and roll around in it. And sometimes people say, Terry, are, are you selling me? I’m like, yes. That’s what I do. Like no one’s shocked, right?
RV (11:28):
How do you get past that fear part? Like, I, I think, like you said, you know, are you selling me? Yes. I think a lot of people would say, are you selling me? No, no. I don’t, don’t think of me as a salesperson. I’m not selling. I don’t wanna sell to you. Oh, no,
Speaker 2 (11:40):
I, I I own it. I love it. How do you, I
RV (11:42):
I know that you do. How do you coach? I I know that you do, how do you wrap your mind around that? Or how do you help other people wrap their mind around that? Like, I don’t wanna be thought of as a pushy salesperson,
Speaker 2 (11:58):
And, and I love the, that you put the emphasis on pushy Look I believe in the power of the sales professional. We move commerce. Nothing happens until somebody sells something, but we do, we shrink from it. And so I think what makes this book different and what makes this conversation different is, you know, my, my training is in academic focus. I was on the speech and debate teams in high school and in college, and I use debate strategy in a selling environment so that I can apply persuasive arguments to move a transaction forward. I don’t think it has to be hard sell. I don’t think you have to have a negative connotation of what a salesperson is. I think you can craft a beautiful, elegant, persuasive message and move people towards action without being hard sell. So to kind of circle back to your question, how do you get them to lean into owning being a sales professional?
Speaker 2 (12:56):
And I think if you, if you own it and you believe in it, then it’s a lot easier to have that conviction. Somebody asked me, okay, Terry, in all the research that you’ve been doing, what’s the hardest product to sell? And I’m like, the hardest product to sell is the one you don’t believe in. Mm. You know? So if you, if you believe in, in yourself and the services that you offer, then the bigger question that I’m trying to help people with is, you can’t just give people a laundry list of the things that you do. You have to construct a logical, persuasive case to move them towards action. And so there is a clean process. Again, I don’t use any weird, crazy manipulative closing tactics. I use strategies that are based on logic and evidence and social proof. And I think that when you give people those tools, they can feel better about being persuasive and being, and crafting a compelling message. They’re like, woo. Like I hear all the time people going, woo, I, oh, I wish I would’ve known this 20 years ago. Like, I, it freaks me out to think how much money I must have left on the table. But once you give them, then they’re liberated. And I just try to teach people to fish so that they can go and do it on their own.
RV (14:06):
How do you close, like how do you, we were talking about that just a moment ago too. Like, do you like, like if, if you had to give someone like, you know, a five minute crash course on closing you gave us that question earlier, which I think was, do you wanna move forward? Something like, something to that? Yeah. Would you
Speaker 2 (14:27):
Like to move forward?
RV (14:29):
Is that at the end of that? Is it as simple as that? It’s like one, here’s one, just one question. Boom, that’s a close.
Speaker 2 (14:33):
Well, yes or no, but
Speaker 2 (15:19):
So when you, and, and it starts with, you know, did you create an awakening? What are the needs steps? How do you address satisfaction, visualization and change? It’s called Monroe’s motivated sequence. And it’s really based on a human being’s a authentic way to make a decision so that they feel good about it. And so it’s really kind of a very big topic to address right here, but it goes back to the number one mistake you have to prepare. You have to block it. Just like anything, you wouldn’t just, you know, throw content up on your website and think, oh, yeah, that’s gonna be compelling. You don’t just you know, if you’re creating a brochure or you’re creating your demo video, or you’re creating your narrative on your website, whatever it is, if you always have that persuasive mindset and you use this pattern, then you’ll think to yourself, okay, what’s the awakening? What’s the need step? What’s the satisfaction step? The visualization step, and then the action step. And with that consistency, you get the outcomes that you’re looking for.
RV (16:26):
Say those again. It’s a, just the five. It’s awakening.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
Awakening, need, satisfaction, visualization, and action.
RV (16:35):
Uhhuh,
Speaker 2 (16:36):
So when somebody comes to me and they say, okay, Terry, will you watch me, watch me? I’ll say, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I, I listen to their whole talk, and then I’m asking myself, did they create some sort of awakening in my mind? Like, people think that the attention step is about having a pithy quote or maybe some statistic or some dramatic story, but that’s not what a listener needs in a buying situation. I’m not saying that you can’t use those things, but they should create an awakening. The listeners should go, wow, you know, I’ve heard this before, but the way you’re saying it, it’s landing in my mind in a different way. And now I’m curious, you know, that that awakening curiosity step is what helps you to convert someone who maybe didn’t even initially want to be there.
Speaker 2 (17:27):
So you have to make them intrigued and inspired to want to move forward, and you wanna do it in a way that makes you feel good about it. So that’s that whole essence. And that kind of weaves into the second part of the book. So the first part of the book is focused on how do you build your persuasive case? Okay? The second part of the book is focused on creativity and how do you really bring that message to life? How do you drive connection storytelling, all of those elements, timing, how do you use time effectively? And then the third piece is everybody’s favorite part, right?
Speaker 2 (18:14):
Like there are four mistakes that fall under case four that fall under creativity and four that fall under delivery. And I confess, you know, Rory, I have personally made every single one of these 12 mistakes, and that’s why I know they’re so costly. In the 5,000 participants that were in the study, there was really only one human that said, I don’t make any mistakes.
RV (19:27):
Okay?
Speaker 2 (19:28):
The number one mistake that people noticed in others is that that talk was boring. Boring, boring.
RV (19:33):
Uhhuh
Speaker 2 (19:36):
So don’t you think that’s interesting that most people self-identify as being overly informative, but other people are boring.
RV (19:43):
Call it boring. Yep.
Speaker 2 (19:44):
It’s like, yeah. So we say that in
RV (19:46):
Communication. Sorry, break it theory. Sorry. To to a sweetheart. Yeah. Boring. You’re boring. We’re sleep over, we’re sleeping,
Speaker 2 (19:52):
Right? Yeah. And that’s, that is the, the, that was where things really got super crazy interesting was because we did a, a comparison of what people self-identified with what they noticed in others. And you, what you just said, Rory in instinctively is what really hit it on the head. We don’t tell people, you don’t tell someone, oh, you know, I, I thought that was really good, but you’re boring. We don’t tell people, you know, you, you have all kinds of weird, strange body language and gesturing when you speak. We don’t tell people, did you know that you say or like, or, you know, every other word. Hmm. We don’t say to people, oh, you know what, you use so many industry acronyms and I had no idea what you were talking about. I don’t, we don’t tell people. So what was fascinating is what people self-identified versus what they called out in others. And in those observations, you know, that’s where we get the learnings.
RV (20:54):
Well, and here’s something I would just say for those, if you’re listening and you are a professional speaker wanting to like, get more gigs or get higher fees, or if you’re aspiring, if you’re not getting gigs, that is people telling you you’re boring
Speaker 2 (21:42):
Alright. And let’s take it even to your, your seasoned pros that are on the call. You know, we have a burden to evolve our content. Mm-Hmm.
RV (22:56):
Taylor Swift. Swift, our rocket ship, swift Taylor Swift man era’s to her, even though she’s young. She’s, she’s reinvented so many times. I’m a Taylor, I’m a swifty. I’m a swifty. I’m in court.
Speaker 2 (23:06):
Who isn’t? How can you not admire that woman? I
RV (23:09):
Mean, yeah, you got, you may not like her, but you gotta respect her. I mean, there’s, there’s lots of people like that in the world where I go, I don’t, I mean, I happen to like Taylor Swift, but like, there’s other people where I go, I don’t like this person at all,
Speaker 2 (24:18):
It isn’t, and it’s not going back. So yes, there’s a whole chapter that’s dedicated to technology and demonstration failures, and they can take place in either a virtual or hybrid environment. I think one of the opportunities in virtual is, is the reach. I mean, you can really yeah. Meet with decision makers in a variety of different locations all at the same time. I mean, from a sales perspective, again, I’m asking people to put their, their sales hats on, but we used to say, oh gosh, it’s so challenging. ’cause Now you can’t just walk into their office and meet with that person. That’s true. There is a limitation to that. However, the opportunity is you can schedule a virtual call and meet with multiple decision makers in, on multiple continents Yeah. And accomplish more in a shorter period of time. And you save not only time, but you can save a great deal of money. And so there is an efficiency when you schedule it correctly. The downside is the time factor. We know that the amount of time you’re given in a virtual or hybrid environment is significantly reduced. You get maybe 30 minutes and then you get a really hard stop. Right? Like we, what is the hard stop? We never used to get this hard stop factor. Yeah.
RV (25:38):
Well, it’s like I have another meeting in two 10 seconds, not, yeah. I need to walk down the hall and drive in my car and there’s flex. It’s like, no, it’s, it’s right now I have to go. Yeah. That’s interesting.
Speaker 2 (25:49):
It’s so just like we were talking before about winging it, we can see that in virtual calls or in hybrid calls, that winging at issue is a huge problem. You cannot just jump on a call and wing it. When you have really strict time parameters, you have to kind of block the time and then you have to try to rein it in if it starts to go sideways. Right? I mean, we’ve all had those moments where, you know, someone on the call will take you down a path that’s gonna pull you off your agenda. So you have to have an awareness like, okay, this thing’s gonna close in like five minutes. Yeah. So what do I need to accomplish before we hit that hard stop? Mm-Hmm.
RV (26:34):
Can’t, you wind it down and sort of land the plane gracefully.
Speaker 2 (26:37):
Yeah. And then the secondary factor is one of the biggest mistakes within this chapter is this
RV (26:44):
Is mistake number 11. So it’s techno technology and demonstration failures. That’s what you’re talking about here.
Speaker 2 (26:51):
Exactly. And the hybrid environment. So you might be with five or six people in front of you, but you could have five or six people offline. And navigating that hybrid opportunity is tricky. Especially if you’re doing, let’s say for your speaker colleagues, you know, how often are they speaking in front of a live audience and then they have participants. You could have a hundred fifty, two hundred fifty people offline in a hybrid. Yeah. The number, guess what the number one complaint is? They ignore the virtual or speaker.
RV (27:24):
They ignore the virtual.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
They ignore the virtual Mm-Hmm.
RV (27:33):
The problem. Even if there’s, we’ve done events where we’ve had events for clients, like with Ed Millet’s event, there were 400 people in the room, there were 16,000 watching online. And we still naturally default to playing to the people who are right in front of us. Even though it’s like there’s 16,000 people. It’s like, it’s, it’s just, it’s, it is hard to, it’s hard to do that. It’s hard to play to both. It
Speaker 2 (27:57):
Is. And so that’s why I really committed this book, because there’s these things that you and I, we know, but I say this all the time. I was just with Brandon Steiner and he said, you know, Terry, I, I know this stuff. And I said, Brandon, it’s not that you don’t know, it’s what you do. What I’m fixing is a lot of times not things that you don’t know but you’re not doing. Yeah. And how do you integrate what you know into your behaviors on a consistent basis so that you can get the outcomes that you want? And I think it’s, I think it’s really fun.
RV (28:29):
I love it. I love it. So presentation ready. Improve your sales presentation outcomes. Avoid the 12 most common mistakes. Terry is one of the best trainers in the world on presentations, persuasive presentations specifically including speaking skills, sales skills, and check this book out. Y’all go, go get it. I promise you’ll love it. Terry’s a pro. Any, Terry, where else should people go? If you want, if you want them to sync up and connect with you.
Speaker 2 (28:56):
Oh my gosh. Please visit my website. You can just go to teri sine.com. That’s T-E-R-R-I-S-J-O-D-I n.com. You can access all the information about presentation ready. It’s available in bookstores worldwide, Barnes and Noble, Amazon, all of the above. And I do have a newsletter. If you would like to receive a complimentary copy of each of the three research study reports, you can just visit my website. You can download the research summary reports, and you’ll see the data that really underpins all of the content that’s in the book and subscribe to the newsletter.
RV (29:36):
Really cool. Really cool. Of course we’ll link to that in the show [email protected] slash podcast. Terry, thank you for this. Thanks for being here, friend. And I wish you all the best.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
I adore you. Keep doing all your magic. Roy. You’re such a star and I’m honored to be your friend. And thank you for having me on your show. It’s a privilege.
Ep 512: From Income to Impact: How to Make the Most Out of Your Gifts with Victoria Jackson
AJV (00:01):
Hey, everybody, welcome to the Influential Personal Brand, and that is the perfect title of a podcast for the interview that I get to do today with the one and only Victoria Jackson. When we talk about influence, this is a woman who has immense influence, and I am so honored to get to know you personally and to get to know your story. And I also, to get to be the one to interview today, I snatched this away from Rory so that I got to lead the interview today. But before I launch into this episode, for everyone who is listening who maybe is new to the name Victoria Jackson, let me give you a little bit of the background. And if I were to read all of her accomplishments and accolades, it would take up the entire podcast. So I’m going to give you some of what I consider the biggest highlights that stand out to me.
AJV (00:57):
So here are some of the things that you need to know about Victoria Jackson. First and foremost, I think this is first and foremost to me. She is the mother of three awesome kids and her and her husband, bill, how long have you guys been married? 32 years. So to me, like those are some of the best and biggest accomplishments. But she is also the founder and CEO of the global brand and infomercial giant Victoria Jackson Cosmetics. And I think this is phenomenal because Victoria was a part of revolutionizing and dominating the entire beauty industry with her no makeup, makeup, which is just relaunched. And I wanna talk about this later. It’s actually, if you’re watching the video today, I am wearing no makeup makeup, and I love it, and I could go on and on about it. But as a huge part of this entire way that she launched this makeup, she was a really, truly a pioneer with being the first to market a cosmetics line on TV with more than 11 international infomercials.
AJV (02:03):
And so she had a 10 year run on QVC with Victoria Jackson’s cosmetic, with more than 600 beauty products, generating a billion dollars in sales. That’s a BA billion dollars in sales, and I love that story, but I think some of the things that, that make up who you are are just as significant as, as, as a teen Victoria survived a sexual assault, and she has gone on to reach out and empower women of in so many different ways around the world. And then in 2008 her daughter was diagnosed with N mo Neuromyelitis Optica and was shared that they, she only had four years to live. And so Victoria, along with her husband, bill, went on to found the Guthy Jackson Charitable Foundation which has raised an unbelievable amount of money to fund research to help find a cure for this disease.
AJV (03:04):
She was nominated as the National Women into the National Women’s Hall of Fame for this work. And then she was also at the Vatican, at the Vatican accepted as the Pontifical Key Advocacy Award for her personal work in trying to overcome and understand the rare autoimmune autoimmune diseases that are in the world. She has funded a series of documentaries. She’s the author of five books. She has a brand new book coming up that we’re gonna talk about later. And she has relaunching this makeup line Woman. I do not know how you have time to do all of these things. So without further ado, everyone and Victoria, thank you so much for being on the show. We’re so excited to have you. So welcome.
VJ (03:48):
Thank you for having me, aj. Yeah, it’s definitely, I, I like to keep myself busy and, you know, I think I was just, you know, born ready. I, I don’t know, a friend of mine said, I’m born ready. Like, I feel like I was just born ready to, ready to go and take on all the challenges, and then just be a doer, you know, and always really there to help and support women and people. I’ve been a Goodwill ambassador in so many different ways.
AJV (04:16):
Ryan, what I love too, is like, you truly are so humble about all of it, and it, it’s, it would be easy for you not to be humble about all of it, but you are. And so I kind of wanna just help the audience get to know you just a little bit. And so can you just tell everyone a little bit of the story of how did you get into the world of makeup? And I mean, I know the backstory, and so just pull out some of the highlights, because I think it’s a really phenomenal story because I think a lot of the people who are listening to this are trying to figure out like, what’s my next thing and how do I go from where I am to where I wanna be? And you have done that exceptionally well.
VJ (04:57):
Well, there, you know, it’s, I think my least favorite question always was when people would go, well, what do you wanna do when you grow up? Or What are you thinking about doing? And I actually, I didn’t know. I didn’t as you mentioned, you know, I had an unfortunate kind of start in life in a, in a few different ways, but one in which really prevented me from graduating high school, from going to college. I was a victim of the Pillowcase Rapist in California when I was 17. And up to that point, I was always a little bit of a, of a nervous Nelly and had anxiety. And, you know I don’t know that I knew where I was going in life. I had a very tumultuous, unstable upbringing, parents kind of getting divorced and, you know, just really not kind of always being able to find my feet.
VJ (05:47):
But one thing I did find my feet with and my hands was I liked doing makeup. I liked taking, having my friends come over and doing makeovers on them. And even though my technique really was something that I had to perfect over time, it was just something that I liked doing. I liked, you know, I, I’ve always had a good eye and wanted to work to, you know, show people how they could look better. And I realized through many, many years of doing this that when you look better, you feel better. And when you feel better, it allows you to go on in life to have more success, or, you know, just feeling good about yourself opens up the door to so many things. So I just started one foot in front of the other, started doing makeovers for friends and put together a makeup kit. And that was the beginning
AJV (06:37):
Mean, but to go from doing makeovers on friends Mm-Hmm.
VJ (07:00):
Well, I think for me, it’s all about perseverance. I, in one of my books, I, I wrote and I opened up in The Power of Rare, which is a book I wrote on Cure and, and helping find cure for disease, and how to put a blueprint together for that. But I write that perseverance is where the God swell. I think that what I can do, and what I will always do is stay the course that I persevere, that even though everybody told me, you know, nobody’s gonna be able to buy your, your products. I sold them on television that nobody was gonna buy makeup on tv. That women need to see them and touch them and feel them in person. I’ve always taken the No and turned that around and said, well, I don’t know about that. You know, I, I, I think I can do it, and here’s how.
VJ (07:45):
So it’s just that sense of perseverance, of this constant, this resilience that just makes me move forward no matter what. And I think that’s the takeaway most people get when they look at, you know, the breadth and the depth of, of my career. And what I’ve done is that I just, I never give up as all the people that, you know, you talk to and your listeners, all the aspiring entrepreneurs out there, you just have to keep going. You. so even though I’m saying, oh, I started by putting a kit together and doing my friends, it really was, everything was one step to the next step, to the next step. And even the book that I’ve written now, we all worry now what Ta-da. It’s really the, it’s the step by step of how to zoom out, how to get perspective, how to just take that next step. And a lot of it, you know, we think of, oh, you know, it’s so basic, but it’s, the basics really are the stepping stones that get you there. It’s just doing it, you know, it’s doing the work, and it’s not easy, and you gotta just keep moving forward. Even when everybody tells you, you know, it may not lead to that pot of gold. Everybody’s pot of gold is different.
AJV (09:04):
Hmm. I love that. Curious, I don’t know if I know this timeline from the first day that you started, like professionally doing makeup, so we’ll say beyond just doing makeovers, but like, when you were actually doing professional makeup to when you actually had, like, success with these infomercials, how long was that timeline?
VJ (09:28):
Oh, that was 13 years. So people think, oh, overnight success. Yeah. I was doing I was doing makeovers for 13 years. I was working in the, you know, editorial space, so I was doing everything, A lot of the ads that you see a lot of at the time magazine covers, album covers. I did about 200 album covers. I would do people magazine covers. So many kind of, and that time is invaluable because during those 13 years, I could see, well, what kind of products do women respond to? I came up with during that time what I became known for, and still to this day, hence product number two, no makeup, makeup. That was really something that I came up with in the eighties. And think about that in the eighties, everybody’s wearing like the shoulder pads and like, you know, heavy glam makeup. I’m doing no makeup makeup. So I was completely going contrary to what was happening at the time. But it was very much, and you see how timeless things can be still holds true to this day. I mean, you have it on, you look beautiful. I want women to just not look like they have a lot of makeup on, but just feel like themselves, not use it as a mask or war paint. And so that 13 years gave me that chance to perfect my, really became my signature of no makeup makeup.
AJV (10:52):
You know, I love that because I think most people listening, no offense to anyone, don’t get offended. We’re trying to skip all that time. Yeah. We’re, we’re trying to skip the hard work. We’re trying to skip the hard years, the research years, and we’re going, why isn’t this working? And the truth is, is you’ve been doing it six months or a year. I saw this quote on Instagram a few days ago, and it just really stuck out to me, and it said, you don’t have the patience to build your business in three years, but somehow you found the patience to work for somebody else for 40.
VJ (11:26):
Yeah.
AJV (11:27):
And I think that kind of sums it up. It’s like, good take time and nothing is wasted,
VJ (11:34):
You know? And I mean, honestly, it, those are the kinds of things you have to think about. You know, being an entrepreneur and being in that, there is a little bit in that secret sauce is you have to be somebody. There are some people that they, they want that security and that comfort of working for somebody else for 40 years. And that’s okay. That’s okay. Because when you’re kind of, you know, cutting that tie and you’re going out solo and you’re doing your thing and you’re, you’re, you’re flying on your own, that’s scary. And that’s not easy to do. So you really have to have those hard talks with yourself to see, I’m the first to encourage it, but I never shame anyone for deciding, Hey, yeah, you know what, I’ve got the good job that I like, or the comfort or the things that I’m familiar with, and no, that’s okay.
VJ (12:22):
But that’s, that isn’t my, you know, spirit. I am that little warrior that is always sort of from the beginning, gotta explore and do, and, you know, figure it out. And sure, it’s a lot easier now at this point in my life as I’m getting ready to wait for it, I turned 70 you know, I’ve had a lot of life experience and all of that has really led me to where I am now to be able to tell my story and try to encourage people and look back at all the things that I’ve done and, and, you know, pay it forward.
AJV (13:00):
Yeah. And, and first of all, I hope I look like you do when I turn 70. You look amazing. But I think also one of the things that you just said is one of the reasons I really wanted to have you on the show, because this is about, you know, building an influential personal brand, and not for the sake of fame or notoriety, but for, for doing good and making a positive impact in the world. And in many cases, you can do that without money. And in some cases there are opportunities for people in, in your case, like you had this a abundant mental abundance mentality of going, I have the money. How can I do good with it? And one of the things that I love is this idea of like taking your income and turning it into impact. And I think that’s one of the things that you’ve done so extraordinarily well with the success of all that you’ve done in business, you were able to take that and also do some really amazing things with you know, this charitable funding, trying to find cures for rare disease.
AJV (14:05):
So here, here are the questions I have, because a lot of people in our community, in our audience impact is really what they’re after. They, they have good sustainable businesses and they’re going, but I, I just, I know there’s more from me than just, you know, the revenue and p and l statements. Like, I, there is something in me that wants to do good. And I know that there was, you know, kind of this life altering moment in your, you know, life in 2008 when your daughter got diagnosed, but there was also something else in you that goes, no, I have the funds. I’m gonna do something about it. Because I think a lot of us have funds that we’re not doing something with. So can you talk a little bit about like, what’s the path of turning your, your income into impact?
VJ (14:50):
Well, I think you have to start earlier on the path. When I did that, as I was even in my makeup career, I was going to the jails, right? So even when I didn’t have money, I was thinking, what ev what else, what other skillset do I have that can feel like I can add value, that I can do something when I didn’t have money? So I went to the jails for 20 years, and I had a look better, feel better program for women that were in jail. So I was already thinking about and wanting to give back. And even in my makeup skillset, I was doing makeovers at the hospital for patients. So, you know, I was always already thinking and geared that way. So when my daughter was diagnosed in 2008, it was really, okay, I’m gonna, you know, as a mom, I’m gonna find a cure for my daughter.
VJ (15:42):
I don’t know what that’s gonna look like. As I said, I didn’t graduate high school, I didn’t go to college, and now I’m in the world of a very complex autoimmune disease, NMO neuromyelitis optica, which really manifests in very much looks like in misdiagnosis and ms. People think it’s ms, they’re very similar. And so how am I gonna learn about this, do this? And I started from that place. And then very quickly as my daughter and I were going through this very, very difficult time, she said to me like, you know, this isn’t just about us anymore. And then I realized it wasn’t for, and we, fortunately due to our business and my husband’s success and business, we put in $80 million of our own money. We never raised money. We actually put in our own money. And that was something, you know, and, and we’re still doing that 15 years later, we’re still putting in money for a foundation that is now changed the entire landscape.
VJ (16:44):
And I recommend for anybody out there who’s suffering with, you know, any kind of a, whether it’s a, a tough diagnosis or how to go about looking at what we did, our story Ally and I, is called saving each other. And it’s what I call my momi, really our story. And then the Power of Rare, which is the blueprint of how did we actually take this money and get drugs made, because now we have four therapies and my daughter is, you know, is stable at this point in time. So it’s kind of, I took that same thinking from my makeup days because it was very much about, here’s the makeup and then here’s how to, it’s very much like, here’s the foundation, here’s our story, and then here’s how to, how to do it. So really from like almost foundation to, to foundation. So it’s always been for me about giving back an impact and purpose and taking a lot of leaps of faith along the way.
AJV (17:45):
Yeah, I love that. And I think that’s probably where I think a lot, lot of people are struggling of finding the balance of like, okay, I want this to be about impact, and I need it to be about income. I have to make money at the same time. But, and I love what you said, it’s like there’s, and there’s a million ways to get back with your gifts and talents. It doesn’t require money, but how do you figure out what those gifts and talents are and put them to good use?
VJ (18:14):
Yeah. You just gotta get scrappy and think about it, you know, like, what’s going on in your local community and what, and what can you do? I think the world being as nutty as it is now, and as you know, divisive and polarizing, all the things that are going on, I, it’s so important to get back to community and to thinking about what can we do to support each other? You know, where is that kindness that we can really can put into every day something that we’re thinking not just about ourselves, but others? I think that, and, and that just, you never know when you’re doing that, what doors open where that leads you because so much of it is you, you just don’t know. Like, if somebody would’ve told me while I was doing makeup and trying to figure that whole part of my life out, that cut to the next part of my life, I’d be actually working to cure rare autoimmune disease. I would’ve never believed it. Or that I’d be at the Vatican receiving an award from the Pope, or that Gloria Steinem would be inducting me into the hall of, like, all those things would’ve never even entered into my consciousness. And yet, they’ve all, they’ve all been a, an amazing part of my life that I’ll always, you know, look back on and go, wow, how did that all happen? But life unfolds in a way, and if we just keep doing the work and showing up.
AJV (19:37):
Yeah. And I, I mean, I think that’s like the heart of so much of your message. It’s like, show up, do the work, keep going. What’s the best next step? Yeah. And I think a huge part of how you’ve been able to give back a lot of, you know, you’ve written five books. Mm-Hmm,
VJ (20:27):
You know what, it’s also, it’s all part of that sharing. There’s that, I just have this very, if I can do it, you know, because I come from a place of low self-esteem, I still am constantly working on that, which people go, really? But yes. So it’s always the, well, oh, look, if I could do it, you can do it. And here’s how, like, I, I did this, so you can do this too, and here’s how I’m gonna just show you what I did, and you, you know, take what works for you and, you know, leave the rest. And so that’s always been it. The first book was a, it was called redefining Beauty. It was a beauty book. The second book was Make Up Your Life. So again, it was the, the how to of the book, redefining beauty and then Make Up Your Life was, why does it all matter?
VJ (21:12):
How does looking better feeling better change? Then, you know, the third book was saving Each Other, which was really when my life changed and our story. And then the fourth book was, and here again, is the how to and now this book is really all about, you know, I’ve been, at this point in my life, as I said, I’ve always been filled with anxiety and a warrior, and, but I’ve also been a, a warrior. So the book originally was Warrior to Warrior, but I’ve, there was a few titles with that. But I also liked the universality of like, we all worry, you know, worry is, we talk about stress and anxiety, but you kind of start with worry. Worry is what you like water. And it, all of a sudden now it has become the stress, the anxiety. So I think you’re gonna hear a lot more about worry.
VJ (22:02):
And it’s kind of, now what do we do about that? So it was important to me to share my experiences. What do you worry about? I worry about everything. I’m a black belt warrior,
VJ (22:54):
And men, I have Jay Shetty in there as well. But Maria Shriver, Chris Jenner, okay. We think about the Kardashians. So what are, you know, what are they worrying about or what’s going on? Chris Jenner, you know, very religious, you know, what, how does she start her day with, you know, faith every day? You know, how does she bring her family together? Gloria Steiner, Jane Fonda, what does she worry about? There’s so many interesting things that I was learning from what women, not only worry about, but how they navigate it. So I wanted to put all that together. And again, it’s my offering to people out there on how in a, in a world of a time where there’s so much we worry about just because you have a lot of money doesn’t mean you don’t worry, you know? I, my life is fantastic. I mean, I am so blessed and so lucky, and at the same time, we’ve worked really hard and I make sure to give back, but there’s still worry, you know?
AJV (23:59):
Yeah, I know. I mean, I think, I, I agree with you. It’s a universal, doesn’t matter how much or how little you have there is worry, right? Yeah, yeah. Whatever it is, right? The, the magnitude of the worries are different with each stage of life, but we all, we all do that. So I’m curious to know a little bit about your writing process, because so many people who are listening to this podcast, they do have a calling on their life like you have where it’s like, I, I feel called to put this on paper and, and turn it into a book. And so I would love to hear from you. It’s like, how did you go about deciding what the book should be about? And I think if I recall, you hand write, right?
VJ (24:47):
I hand write. I mean, I’m so old school that is part of being, being old. I’m old school. I like, you know, I have my little pad of paper and I just write stream of consciousness thought I talk I’ll talk it out into a, you know, a recorder. And I just did the audio version. This is the first time on this book that I actually did the audio version. And I have to say that was an experience in itself as well, reading it all back to yourself. Because a lot of times when I’m writing, you know, you’re not, I’m not always reading it back as much as I, as I think I am, until I’ve really finished the book. And I was like, wow. But you know, it’s just a very, it’s, I think writing a book is really tough. It’s really frustrating for me at times.
VJ (25:34):
I, I struggle with it. I’m lucky. I’ve had, I can never take full credit. I have people that have helped me in my writing because I’m very insecure in that I grammatically will think, oh wait, do I need to put a a period here at the end of this sentence? Or should that be a comma? Or, you know, I can get so stuck on the stupid little things. That it’s been helpful for me when I’ve been able to sit with somebody and go like, okay, these are the big points of what I really wanna say and get across. And again, it’s just doing it. It’s just doing it. Like, I could use, I could have used that as an excuse. Well, you know, I’m not really good at writing dah dah, dah. You have people that support you or help you, or, you know, it takes me longer than most people to write a book, but I still manage to put out five of them. Versus there’s a lot of people that talk about it, think about it, never do it. Yeah. You just gotta,
AJV (26:31):
Yeah. And I love that. ’cause It’s like, and I love that you hand write, like, I think that’s incredible. And I think that’s just a testament for everyone listening. It’s like, there’s no right way to write a book, talk it out on audio hand, write it in a notebook, work with a coach, have a ghost writer, hire an editor. Like whatever it is, just do it.
VJ (26:53):
Just do it. And then make sure it’s true to you. You know? I mean, that’s when I felt really good was when I was reading back the book and I went, this is absolutely true to me. This is, this is honest, this is true. This is real, this is helpful. This is what I want to impart to people. So that’s really important. ’cause I genuinely care.
AJV (27:16):
Yeah, I know you do. Why, why a book on worry. So what was it about this particular topic that compelled you to write a whole book about it?
VJ (27:27):
Because that’s been the theme of my life.
AJV (28:55):
That’s good. Who would you say for everyone’s listening, like who would you say this book is really for?
VJ (29:03):
I think it’s for everybody. I really do. You know, you look at these books now that are out like the anxious generation and with where we are in social media, I mean, everybody’s affected one way or another. I mean, young people are, are worrying about everything to do with their friends and how they look and you know, there’s so much that young people now, and it, because of social media, which I didn’t grow up with the way it is now, I think it’s just, there’s so much more anxiety and stress. So even if they’re not sitting down and reading every page of my book you know, there’s something that they’ll be able to take away from, like, something that’s actually doable. So is do we really know too many people that are, you know, short of like little kids that are not worried or stressed or anxious these days?
VJ (29:53):
Sadly, I, I don’t, you know, I’ve got little grandkids. So at six and eight, I hope they’re not dealing with too much anxiety. But when you read this, these books now that are so much, it starts pretty early. So I, I write something just like I do my makeup. You know, people always say, well, who’s your, what’s your makeup geared for? What? It’s a, oh, you’ve got skin. I am, this is your makeup. You know, I mean, I’m, I’m not putting it at a over 40 person. I’m not, you know, I like the idea of no makeup makeup for everybody to just look natural and look like themselves. So I think more universally, I guess is what I’m saying, ultimately.
AJV (30:35):
Well, I do believe, you know, worry is a universal problem. We all struggle with. Like, I could probably make a list of at least 10 things that I’ve worried about today Yeah. Since I woke up just a few hours ago. And so one quick thing about the book, and then I would like to talk about no makeup makeup in the last few minutes that we have. But if you were to say, if you consider yourself somebody who really struggles from worry, like if there was one thing from the book that you’re like, I don’t care if you don’t get anything else from this book, if you just left with this one thing I know it would help you, what would it be?
VJ (31:09):
It’s taking action that even in the face of worry, even in the face of your massive anxiety, that you still have to do something to take that next step. So to me, you know, yes, it’s okay to fall apart and be stressed out and have that moment, but you have to then like not sit in that. You have to take that walk in nature or make that phone call. You’re afraid of, you know, everything that, there’s that saying, you know, everything is amazing. That’s on the other side of fear. It’s, it’s really working to get to that other side of fear and to get anywhere close to that other side of those amazing things that can be on the other side, you’ve gotta just take the next step. So it’s just doing something, whatever it is, when you’re in that moment of like paralysis and you’re worried to the point of not being able to do that, you’ve gotta just do something. And sometimes that’s just walking outside and, you know, going around the block, something to shake it up. I know it sounds so basic. You’re like, that’s it, Victoria. It’s like, yeah, sometimes that’s it. Because in that moment you clear your head enough to sort of let the next thing in and the next thing and the next
AJV (32:28):
Thing. Hmm. That’s good. Quick personal question. Is there anything that you can say like, Hey, this is something that I fear, fear that I haven’t yet done that I know I need to do to take action on?
VJ (32:44):
Yeah, I mean, for me, travel has always been sort of my like little bugaboo. Like I don’t love a lot of movement. And I say this as a person who’s moving all the time, probably like going to some exotic traveling will be what I’ve gotta sort of go, okay, you can do it. I didn’t fly for so many years 35 years, I didn’t, I didn’t fly as a result of claustrophobia. And I still struggle with that. So I think for me, that will be my continued kind of, you know, eat, love, pray moment of going out, you know, in the wild and, and just wherever that is, just out of my comfort zone.
AJV (33:30):
Hmm. Yeah, I asked because I, you know, I was just sitting here thinking as you were talking about like, what are the things that I know I need to take action on, but there’s some amount of worry or fear that is preventing me to move forward. And I just know that if you struggle with that, if I struggle with that, everyone’s listening, we all struggle with something like that. And, you know, Rory and I have had these conversations in our house a lot here lately. And I think one of the things that we fear is like, man, like how much of what we really think should we share? You know? And I think there’s a real fear of not wanting to come across as judgmental, but also feeling compelled to, to share an alternative view or one that maybe isn’t as popular or as common. And I think there’s a lot of that fear of cancel culture, which has a lot of people who have thoughts and opinions afraid to talk.
VJ (34:31):
Yeah, no, it’s, it’s very, it’s very real. It’s all part of what creates the, the stress and the anxiety is ’cause people are afraid to just be themselves. But I think that there’s a way to do it if you do it with kindness, where the problem is there’s so many people that are doing it you know, with so much hate or bitterness or, you know, anger and, you know, that’s always hard. And then, so then other people are afraid to just say anything because of the afraid of the judgment. You know, I’ve always tried to be as authentic and real and you know, I’ll, I may have opinions that other people don’t like and they’re just mine and it’s like, take it or leave it. And I’m very, you know, if people are not like doing harm to somebody else, and some people politically believe this and some people believe that, and somebody was pro-abortion, somebody’s pro-life, like, you know you know, I just take it all in and, you know, you try to have conversations as civilly as you can and listen to other people. You know, there’s that level of respect at times that we’ve all lost a little bit. And I think you just have to get back to that and and not worry so much about not being able to just have conversation and be yourself. I think that’s important. You hate to lose that because that’s kind of really where the magic is because that’s where we’re authentic to who we are.
AJV (35:57):
Totally agree. And, and back to, it’s like we all have worry at some level. So what are we gonna do about it? So again, we all worry now what coming to a bookshelf near you very, very soon. Again, I’ll put the show notes or the link in the show notes, but you can pre-order it now on Amazon. Pick up a copy, buy one for yourself, buy one for a friend. And before we go, I also wanna talk about this relaunch of Yeah, no makeup, makeup. And as I mentioned earlier, I am wearing it today and I love it. I think it’s amazing. One, I love that it’s in a little compact and it’s so creamy. ’cause I’m usually putting my makeup on, on the go
VJ (36:45):
You know, for me, I mean, I love look at being, I was always in a, in the lab creating product. As I said, I made about 600 and it’s really fun working with color and pigments and coming up with a great product. So I am a formulator at heart. I love it. And my foundation, when I first launched No makeup makeup many years ago, was my hero product, my number one product. And so I wanted to bring it back, but bring it back in a new clean vegan, like, just an amazing formula. I was not gonna launch anything until I had like, what I thought is the perfect foundation. That’s what this is. It comes in 13 shades. And I, I love it. I mean, it’s so easy for me to sell it because I’m like, I love it. I think since I’ve launched, just in the last month, we’ve had two returns. I mean, like, people love it. So that’s what I wanted to just get back into kind of back where I started the whole no makeup makeup and I own the trademark. I trademarked that in the eighties. So it’s just a message that’s still true. It’s timeless. So I wanted to make a, just a fantastic product and I’ve done that and it’s no makeup makeup.com and people can check it out and yeah, I love it.
AJV (38:00):
Well, you know, that’s the thing about building something that’s evergreen and timeless, and now it’s getting introduced to a whole new generation of people like me who wasn’t wearing makeup in the eighties. And and a again, I think one of the things that I love is just a great reminder for all of us is that, you know, it’s never too late to start and it’s never too late to restart. And that’s so much of what I love about you. It’s like, I mean, if I can do it, why not? We can figure it out.
VJ (38:36):
Why not? And I mean, even in makeup, you know, it’s sort of like, it’s, it’s pretty easy. Like this comes with a brush and it’s start at your jawline, match your color. You’re, you’re in, it’s, it’s makeup. If you don’t like how something looks, you wash it off. Like I, I try to get women off the, the hurdle of, you know, they get so in their head sometimes, not just women. And we get stuck that even when I was doing my makeup for so many years, which with this how to, it was just like, here’s, here’s how you do it. And it doesn’t matter. Like, people go, well what if, do I need to start with my eyes first? And then my lips, I’m like, at the end of the day, we just care how it looks like when it’s all done. So I just wanna create products that make you feel good and look good and look like yourself and not wear a mask. So there’ll be other products that follow this, but right now it’s no makeup, makeup, just the foundation for beautiful skin. Well,
AJV (39:29):
I can attest. It’s feels good on, looks good on, I think the feel of makeup is really important to me. And this, it doesn’t feel like I have anything on. I really love it. And I, what I love too is that, you know, this whole idea of like, people think all the time I have to create something new. Yeah. And it’s like, no, you don’t. Yeah. You can just take something that already had and just make it better. Make
VJ (39:57):
Better, improve it. Yeah. That’s the good thing. You know, technology’s changed and I took what was an original formula and I just improved it, you know, manyfold. So, and you look beautiful.
AJV (40:09):
Thank you. And I think for everyone listening, it’s like when you think, oh, I have to write this whole new book, or I have to build this whole thing. No, you don’t. You just, you can take what you have and revise it and it’s taking
VJ (40:21):
That next step. It’s just, it’s just, it’s just doing it. You know? It’s, there’s talking about it’s great, but then you just gotta, you just gotta do it. And it’s always work. So you gotta just be ready to do the work. And and that’s honestly, like I said, it’s, it’s simple, it’s basic, but and people are, are listening, trying to always find what are the magic words you’re gonna say? Sometimes it’s just, you gotta get uncomfortable. You gotta do it. And you gotta work to find what’s on that other side of, for me, fear. Mm-Hmm.
AJV (40:59):
All right. Last question. And I know that we’re running out of time here, but you mentioned this earlier, that you’re about to turn 70. Yes. And so I wanna know what’s next for you. Like,
VJ (41:12):
You know what, that’s the great part. I don’t know. Who knows? Who knows? Maybe you, and I’ll be talking in five years, 10 years, and you’ll go, you did what
AJV (42:15):
And I love the, the mystery and the adventure and all of that. ’cause The truth is, if we had never put out what we were doing, our paths would’ve never crossed. Yeah. And you just, you just never know. But you gotta put it out there. You gotta do the work. And I love too of going just enjoy the beautiful mystery of just not knowing, but do the work, keep moving and enjoy the ride.
VJ (42:39):
Yeah, exactly.
AJV (42:41):
Victoria, thank you so much for coming on. And everyone just one more time. Her book is coming out very soon, September 3rd, pre-order now on Amazon. We all worry now what? And her makeup as relaunched now available [email protected] and at Victoria. If anyone wants to just follow you personally, where’s the best place to send them?
VJ (43:07):
Oh my gosh. Probably Instagram. You can, you know, the original original Victoria Jackson, I believe is where we’re, I’m so not in the world of social media. You’ll all help me as we go along on this journey. But yes, you’ll be able to follow me. Okay,
AJV (43:23):
Well that’s what’s next for Victoria Social Media. That’s it.
VJ (43:28):
AJV (43:31):
I’ll put the handle the official Victoria Jackson. I’ll put that in the show notes. Thank you so much. Loved having you on today. Love getting to see you and talk to you and everyone else. Stay tuned for the recap, which will be coming up next. And we’ll see you next time on the influential personal brand.
Ep 510: Conquer the Chaos with Clate Mask
RV (00:02):
Well, today you’re gonna hear from someone who is a dear friend of mine. His name is Clate Mask and Clate’s product, his company, his life mission, has radically changed my life, our lives, our business. He is a huge part of what has made Brand Builders Group successful, although many of you don’t realize the role that he has because it’s so behind the scenes but it is so critical to everything we do, and you’re gonna hear about that. How is that possible? Well, clay is the CEO and the co-founder of Keep, which is the world’s leading business automation software. It is round a hundred million dollar company. It’s a SA software as a service, a SaaS company. And it is the business automation tool that AJ and I have used to now build six different multimillion dollar businesses, two of which have become eight figures including Brand Builders Group, which has gone from zero to eight figures in five years.
RV (01:00):
The reason why that has happened, a huge part of why that has happened is because we have built our businesses on kes platform. We use Keap to automate our marketing, to automate our sales pipeline, to automate our customer experience, to automate our customer service, to automate our onboarding, our recruiting, our hiring, our our interviewing. We automate our payments, we automate our collections. We automate so many parts of our business. We automate so many parts of our content marketing and our podcast production, and virtually all of them are, can connected back through this software. And so much so that we have been building a custom version of that software called Instant Automation Toolkit, which has been over coming up on five years in development. And we’re just about to release it. And so I thought, Hey, you need to meet this man. The man that was you know, one of the original visionaries of the whole marketing and business automation space. And Clay is also a New York Times bestselling author. He is a multi Inc. 5,000, you know, CEO. He is an award-winning entrepreneur. And he has a book that just came out called Conquer the Chaos. And we’re gonna talk about exactly what that means. And part of what Clate has done is build an amazing personal life in addition to an amazing business. And so we’re gonna talk about how to not only automate your business, but also win in your personal life at the same time. So Clate, welcome to the show, my brother.
CM (02:33):
Hey, thank you Roy. That was a heck of an intro. I appreciate you
RV (02:36):
CM (03:32):
You bet. You know, we, we’ve worked with entrepreneurs for over 20 years helping them to achieve their, their goals and dreams. And, you know, when everybody gets into business, they have this, this dream of freedom. They’ve got this view of what things are gonna be like
RV (04:37):
No one, no one, no one puts on their vision board systems
CM (04:45):
Exactly. Exactly. And, and frankly, you know, we, as you know, we built up Infusionsoft as the leader in marketing automation that was about doing all of the marketing and sales stuff. But what we, what we learned over the over time was, it’s one thing to grow your top line revenue. It’s a very different thing to have your bottom line take home pay bank account, and more importantly, totally your time and the sense of control and the freedom that you actually feel in the business. I mean, you, you and I both know this, I’m sure a lot of listeners are hearing this, it is crazy how many people get to a certain revenue mark in their business. Seven figures is a real, is a real common one. People think, man, I’m gonna get to that seven figure mark and now, you know, think I’m gonna have, there’s this sense of what they’re going to have in terms of bottom line, take home pay, time, freedom, control. Mm-Hmm.
RV (06:04):
Yeah. I mean, it’s, it’s funny, I, I love the pivot that you guys made from Infusionsoft is marketing automation to keep, is business automation. ’cause That really is true about us. Like, even our stories, like we are not, honestly, we, we’ve never really been the best marketers in the world. Like we’ve never had millions of followers. We’ve just made millions of dollars. Mm-Hmm.
RV (06:58):
Like, you’re just Right. You’re the, you’re adding more customers, more disorganization, more problems, more complexity, more challenges. It’s like you really need to have the backend tight and, and, and cleaned up. So I love where you guys made that pivot from marketing automation as Infusionsoft to business automation is key. ’cause It really is, I think your, your, your bread and butter now, you talk about six keys in the book. Okay. Yeah. So, so, so conquer the chaos. WW walk us through a couple of those. Yeah. Because I, I think, you know, to me your message is really clear, how do I conquer chaos and achieve freedom through business automation? Right. Right.
CM (07:45):
That’s it in a nutshell. Yep. So, so
RV (07:47):
Walk us through then, like kind of the six, you know, kind of keys of, of how to actually execute that.
CM (07:53):
Yeah, you bet. The, the keys are actually, so the, the book is Conquer Cast, the Six Keys to Success for Entrepreneurs. And the first three keys are actually personal. And the second three are business with automation being, you know, the crucial show. You know, kind of the crux of it. But the reason I wrote it that way is because after more than two decades of working with entrepreneurs very closely and seeing, seeing what their lives look like as they, and
RV (08:16):
How many customers have you guys had?
CM (08:18):
We, we’ve got over 200,000 users of our software. We’ve got over 20,000 businesses using the software. And over the years we’ve probably worked with 50,000, you know, so, so we’ve
RV (08:29):
Worked 50,000 entrepreneurs. Like you, when you say I’ve worked with entrepreneurs, it’s not like, oh, I’ve spent time around a couple of ’em. Like it’s
CM (08:35):
No, and it’s working closely with them, seeing very closely their business, getting to know them. I mean, the number of mastermind groups and, and conferences and coaching, coaching meetings. I mean, you, I’ve, I’ve worked so closely with entrepreneurs and what I see over and over and over is something that just compelled me to write the personal part of the book. Because what I see is the business becomes so dominant that, that their, their lives get out of whack. And they, over time, they subtly and gradually make trade-offs in favor of the business that cost them what they care about the most in the end. And so, you know, when you see people’s financial family health, you know, when you see those things really melt down and, and some of the most, you know, very, very well known entrepreneurs that, you know, I, you know, people would know if I said their names and I see them closely, and I see them as clients and friends, and, and then I see it over and over and over with small businesses everywhere.
CM (09:38):
And I’ve, I’ve experienced it, I call it the dark side of entrepreneurship. And it is that it’s not just the, the, the struggles of entrepreneurship, it’s actually also when the business is very successful and the way that it dominates the life of the individual. So the first three keys are the personal keys, and they are actually about conquering the chaos inside getting your, getting your per getting personal life. Right. Because when I say the six keys to success for entrepreneurs, I define success right at the beginning of the book, let’s get on the same page what we mean by, by entrepreneurial success. And I say it’s balanced growth in your business and personal life that produces freedom. And if you’re, if you don’t get that balanced part, right you know, I’ve seen a lot of people who are really excited about their business goals and achieving them, and, and then they end up having great regrets. And I just think that’s a travesty. And I don’t
RV (10:30):
I think, I think a really good point that people probably don’t realize is that even if your business is successful, it can be a catalyst for your personal life failing. Yes. Like, I don’t, I don’t think people equate that. Right. So just to sort of underscore that point is to go, man, it’s hard to make a business successful. And even if you pull that off, like it could, that it could, it could work against you in your personal life and, and they don’t have to though.
CM (11:00):
That’s right. If you’re intentional about it and you set it up. So the three, the three, the first three keys are personal and it’s mindset, vision for your life and rhythm of execution, mindset, vision, rhythm. When you put the, when you get the mindset right from the beginning, get the vision straight. Now the business fits into your life vision. I’m not talking about the business vision here. I’m talking about the life vision. Now the business fits into the vision. And then a, you know, how do you execute that in a way that works for your business, your life, your, your personal life in all areas? So that’s, I feel very passionate about that because I’ve spent so much time working with entrepreneurs and seeing the pitfalls of it and experience it personally, real, you know, recognizing and kind of flirting with that dark side and understanding how challenging that can be.
CM (11:42):
And when you get the, the business keys, right? The business keys are strategy, automation, and leadership. When you get the business keys right, it dramatically improves the personal side and fuels your life vision. And when you get the life vision right, and you have your rhythm of execution going, it dramatically improves your business so that you’re not getting burned out, overwhelmed, redlining at work. So that’s, those are the six keys. You know, the, you said it really well. The, the summary of it though is how do you go from chaos to freedom through automation? And, you know, I I start with the personal side to make sure we’re not automating and making a business successful that doesn’t fit into the bigger picture of the entrepreneur’s life.
RV (12:20):
Yeah. Well, and I, I mean, I, you know, I, I can appreciate, ’cause you know, you’re the CEO of, of, of, of, of a, a company that sells automation software, which by the way, I am on the board of, you all should know that. Right? So this is, this is something that I, I have joined the board of, and I’m, I am a proud member of it, and I feel honored and lucky to, to, to be a part of it because I do believe in it. But I really appreciate that you don’t just go like, oh, automation is the only thing. Like the book’s not about automation. It’s going no, there’s the mindset, there’s the whole personal life, there’s strategy leadership. Like, and, and also, you know, there’s other, like, there’s other parts of this, and I think sometimes people, sometimes people probably errantly go, Ooh, I bought the automation tool, now my business is just gonna work on magic.
RV (13:05):
And it’s like, no, like, get the strategy right. Like
CM (14:17):
You bet. Well, there was the early days when you know, the, when, when we were just trying to get the business going. And then there was a season where I, I I talk about the dark side, where we had kinda lost control investors, board members, you know, lot, lots of things had happened and I was considering leaving at that point. So, which, which of those two do you want me to tell is
RV (14:37):
That Well, I, I, I want, I want, it could be the, it could be the first one too, but, but I wanted, the startup story is powerful, but it’s, it’s really the second one that I, I, I wanted to hear because, and this is to to you, to the thing you said earlier. You guys were very successful. You were very big. You brought on, you know, a lot of money from really smart people and, and you had a lot of things going. And even then you had a challenging season. And when you were, you were, you were thinking about leaving the company and your wife said something to you, and it always stuck with me. And I’m going like, oh my gosh, every entrepreneur needs to hear, hear this story. ’cause I, I think what she said was so wise.
CM (15:17):
Yeah. So here’s, here’s what happened. I’ll give the, the, the background for people to understand. And those who know Infusionsoft and know keep may, may appreciate this, but you know, we built Infusionsoft as the leader in marketing automation, and we got to a point where we, we really wanted to go down market. You know, we heard, we heard the cries of Confusionsoft from people who, you know, like, oh, it’s too complicated for me. And a lot of that came from solopreneurs. You know, 90% of the small business market is solopreneurs who they really don’t have the problem of chaos the way that we solve it. You know, they don’t, they don’t have a lot going on yet where things are slipping through the cracks. Instead, they’re trying to kind of figure out, well, what should their marketing be? And they’re trying to figure out who, who is their customer?
CM (16:00):
What is their offering? And that’s a different thing. If you don’t, you don’t necessarily need automation when you don’t yet have a business that’s bringing in customers. So we mistakenly tried to go down market to appease those folks. Now, by the way, in all, in all fairness, we also needed to do some things to simplify the user experience of our software. And we’ve done that. And, you know, that that was a, a, that was the fruitful part of what we did. But the, the, the not so fruitful part of what we did is we tried to go down market to serve those solopreneurs, and it really hurt the business. We were really struggling like crazy. And so we, we tried to bring in some people from the outside that could help lead, lead the, the operations. These were, you know, smart Silicon Valley folks, and the board became enamored with them. And shoot, I was too initially. And, and after some time I recognized, well, this isn’t working. And the board said, no, no, no, let them keep doing their thing. And I became sort of a figurehead of the company, but the whole company was being operated by the COO and I wasn’t allowed to make any changes. And it was incredibly frustrating. And it went on for almost four years.
RV (17:09):
Wow. Because this is your baby. This is your blood sweat. Yeah. You bootstrapped it. I mean, you guys bootstrapped like the first seven, 8 million in revenue, right?
CM (17:16):
That’s exactly right. Bootstrapped seven or 8 million. Then we brought on investors and, and I, and I appreciate, you know, I appreciate the investors and I appreciate all the learnings and, but we got to a point where I was very, very frustrated and, and frankly, you know, just to be candid, I was bitter and I was angry, and I wasn’t taking accountability for where we were. I was, I was pretty upset. And about three years into that ordeal I told Charise, I can’t do it anymore. I just can’t, I I can’t keep doing this, watching the company struggle like crazy and not being able to do what I think needs to be done, and I’m just done. And she said, you know, and I was, and I was angry with the board. I was angry with the, the, the new management team that had come in and she said, look, if you wanna quit, quit, but don’t do it when you’re mad. And I, boom,
RV (18:09):
There,
CM (18:10):
RV (18:10):
Boom. I mean, that is a, that is a wisdom bomb right there. You can say it again. Say it again.
CM (18:19):
If you wanna quit, quit. But don’t do it when you’re mad.
RV (18:22):
Oh, man, that’s so good.
CM (18:24):
And what it did, was it, you know, I, the, the, the funny thing was, I, I kind of, and I’d been, I’d been kind of living in this place where half the time I felt like quitting and half the time I was being threatened to be fired by the board. And so it was just such a tricky place to be. It’s so hard to describe it. But what happened when she said that to me was that I began to really be conscious of how I was showing up and how, you know, how my, how my emotions about the situation were affecting things. And then I went to work on that, and I went and I started working with my coach again. And he helped me see my part in the whole situation and helped me to take accountability for things. He helped me to be grateful, you know, because most situ, and, and I, I, when he first said, you gotta get, you gotta start, get, becoming more grateful for your board.
CM (19:15):
Mm-Hmm. And I looked at him like, are you freaking kidding me? Like, do you realize what I’m going through
RV (20:23):
I mean, that’s just so good. I mean, that’s when you go like, man, you know, God, God put a strong, faithful, wise woman in your life. And, and I think that’s the other thing is like, people don’t realize, like to this conversation, it’s like your personal life and your, and your own mindset. Like to, to the chapter, the, the first of your six keys, like your mindset, it matters. It matters tremendously. Yes. I want to ask you a little bit about rhythm. Okay. Because to me, automation sort of naturally follows rhythm. Yeah. If it’s like, if, if I can figure out a rhythm, then I can automate it, and then it’s like, then it’s magic. ’cause Now, now there’s a tool in place. Yeah. How do you, how do you find your rhythm? Especially when it’s like, you know, it’s clunky in the early years, it’s totally clunky. And, and then, I mean, you got six, six kids, is it six,
CM (21:17):
Six kids and six, six grandkids.
RV (21:19):
I mean, you got six kids, six grandkids. You’re like build, building this company. Like you’re also building, you’re a personal brand and writing books and stuff. You go, how do you find that rhythm in both the business and your personal life?
CM (21:33):
Yeah. You know what this is, this is one of the things that I’m most passionate about because I discovered it on the bus, on the business side first. And we, you know, if you’re familiar with the concepts in mastering the Rockefeller habits that Vern Harnish, Vern Harnish teaches some of the other some of the other great thought leaders that helped us learn these things were people like Jim Collins e even some of the things from Michael Gerber early on, we, we, we basically used a number of different consultants and thought leaders to create a rhythm of how we set our strategy and execute our strategy in the business. And in, in a nutshell, it was getting the, the strategy plan clear, and then having a daily, monthly, weekly, quarterly, annual, three year long-term approach. So you get the long-term vision, and then you work it all the way back to where what you’re doing each day ladders into your goals for the long-term.
CM (22:33):
And we, we started doing that 20 years ago you know, from near like like in year one of the business. And I loved it. And then I started learning some similar principles on the personal side and began doing coaching with, with personal coaches Dan Sullivan at Strategic Coach devouring all kinds of things from different people like like Michael Hyatt and others that you, that, that speak and teach on this stuff. And I started to put a personal rhythm in place that sort of mirrored my business rhythm. And, and as I began to execute that many years ago, I found that it was, it was magic, you know, especially for entrepreneurs who tend to be a little A DHD, if you don’t create some kind of a rhythm, it can become, you know, just the game of the latest distraction, you know, this shiny object.
CM (23:28):
And so getting that rhythm in place. But, but the real art of it though, and the reason why I call it the rhythm of execution, is that it’s not a rut. It’s not a fixed routine. Sometimes those, those words can get, get, you know, routine can get used interchangeably, but rhythm has, it’s got magic to it. It’s got, it’s got art to it, it’s got joy to it. And so the rhythm of execution is about setting up your life vision and then executing it to a, a, a daily, weekly, monthly, quarterly, annual long-term sort of execution cadence. But it’s not rote. It’s not it’s not you know, if you just turn it into complete ha habitual autopilot, that doesn’t quite work. So rhythm is the right way to think of it. And you know, in a nutshell, I have a very beautiful morning experience. You know, I call it my Morning mastery. And I have a weekly evaluation process and a quarterly retreat. And those three, I call those three things, the three, the three transformative habits. You look at any, any person’s morning routine, weekly evaluation, planning, intentionality approach, and a quarterly rhythm that connects their short term to their long term. You look at someone’s practices around those three things, and I believe it’s almost as good as a crystal ball to their future.
RV (24:51):
Man. I love it. I love it. Well, y’all, I, I, you know, this just a, a sample of clay. He’s, you could tell he’s such a brilliant guy, and I, I’m, I’m so inspired by him and what he stands for, the way they run the company, obviously him and his personal life, and his wife. I’m a huge fan of his wife, even though we’ve never met just because, but because of her, her counsel. We’re gonna be telling y’all more about Instant Automation Toolkit. If you wanna, if you want to get a preview of that or you wanna learn about that, you can go to brand builders group.com/automation, brand builders group.com/automation. On, in terms of Clay’s book, the book is called Conquer the Chaos, right? Six Keys to Helping Entrepreneurs Succeed or, or, sorry, six keys to Success for Entrepreneurs. You got it. Is there anything else, you know, clay, that you would, would direct people or that you wanna leave people with?
CM (25:46):
Yeah, you can go to conquer the Chaos book.com, and there’s a bunch of free resources on there. And then obviously, you know, if you’re interested in getting through the chaos, the real trick is you’ve gotta understand your strategy behind it. And you can either do a consulting session, you know, with someone who can help you map your business and strategize and do that. You know, we do that at Keap, or in a better scenario, you work with someone like Rory who’s got the strategy all set up for you, and you can go implement that. That’s a, a, a better way than having to sort of recreate it yourself. So, you know, I love what you guys have created with Instant Automation Toolkit. I think it’s a great place for people to go to get resources to learn more about how to automate their business. And then the book conquer the cast book.com.
RV (26:32):
I love it. Well, clay man, thank you for what you do. I mean, it’s, it’s interesting to hear the hard parts of some of your, your story, and I think that’s so encouraging for all the entrepreneurs who are, are listening because look at, look at the difference that Clay has made, and his wife and his family, and the, the fact that they’ve been able to survive it, the tool that they’ve created in the world and their team, and all the sacrifices their team has made. And, and there’s tens of thousands of business owners like me and aj who have had our lives transformed by the sacrifices that they have made. And so, your work matters. Your small business matters, and it, it, it, it, it cascades and makes an impact in clay. That’s certainly true for you, man. So we love you. We’re praying for you. We believe in you. And thanks for being here. Thanks, Roy. Great to be with you.
Ep 508: My Entrepreneur Bookshelf with AJ Vaden
AJV (00:02):
Hey everybody, and welcome to a special summer edition of the Influential Personal Brand podcast, AJ Vaden here. And today we’re gonna be doing something a little bit different and unique. And instead of having a guest on the show, I am going to have a solo episode highlighting not just my summer reads, but what I would consider my top 10 books that you should read if you are in business for yourself. So, whether you call yourself an entrepreneur, solopreneur, a small business owner, perhaps you’re in direct sales, or you just want to aspire to grow into a, a time in your life where you are doing your own thing, or perhaps you just want to be better at being a leader or your own professional development, wherever it is. I am, I’m kind of calling this episode the Entrepreneur’s Bookshelf, and it’s not just for entrepreneurs, but really for someone who has that entrepreneurial mindset, that’s really who it’s for.
AJV (01:08):
It’s for the person who was looking to grow in business and in leadership. And a lot of this is widespread in Universal, regardless of what you do. But over the last 20 years, which it’s kind of hard to say that out loud, I cannot believe that I have actually been in business for 20 years. But there, there’s a collection of books, some oldies but goodies some newer ones, some that you will likely know, have heard of or even have read, and, and maybe a few that are brand new to you. And what I have found is that over the last 20 years, there are 10 books that stand out to me that I refer to constantly. I recommend constantly. And also it’s like even when I was going through all of my books, these are the ones that look more like workbooks than they did like books.
AJV (02:00):
These are the ones that had dozens and dozens of dog years highlights, stars, underlying circles notes. And even looking through my phone where I keep a lot of my like, kind of like recap notes these are the ones that stand out to me. These are the ones that I remember. They are memorable. I have used them, and some of them have transformed me as a person, as a leader, and some of them very uniquely and specifically have transformed how we do business at Brand Builders Group. So, without further ado I’m going to jump right in as a summer special edition of what I would consider the top 10 books that you should read or you should know about if you are an entrepreneur. And these are in no particular order. Some of them I have the hard copies and some of them I’m just going to have to refer to the audio book version that I did. But these are
AJV (02:59):
My top 10 and what I would consider books that you should read, that you should know about. Number one, it’s The Psychology of Money by Morgan Housel. So if you’re watching this I’m holding a, a picture of the book. This is one of the ones that I actually read, not listened to. And one of the things that I love about going back through these is like, how much of them are highlighted and everything. And here’s what I would say of why I think this book is so important. It’s the subtitle is Timeless Lessons on Wealth, greed and Happiness. And what I love this what I love about this book is it is not about the tactical aspects of how to make money, save money, or invest money. It’s about the emotional side of money, of what grit does it have in your life, and how does that emotional side actually dictate how you make it, save it, and spend it and invest it.
AJV (03:59):
And what I love when I look back about this book and the particular lessons that it taught me is that nothing should be done in extremes, right? And I think a lot of times as entrepreneurs or business owners and or just as humans, we get all kinds of tips and information on, you know, how do you get rich fast? How do you make money while you sleep? How do you, you know, build a million or a hundred million or billion dollar empire with the least amount of work possible? And or the other thing that we hear all the time is, you know, work hard, save lots, retire early. And there’s just something to every single one of those sayings that I fundamentally don’t agree with, and I don’t believe in. I personally don’t for myself believe in retirement. I believe that way beyond retirement age that I will continue to work because one, I love it, but because I believe that there is purpose in what I do.
AJV (05:04):
And the whole concept of retirement is somewhat a phenomenon. And only really did it start to exist in the last, what, 75 years. Like prior to that, there was no such thing as retirement. And not saying that people should enjoy their golden years, but why not enjoy them with the utmost wisdom and the utmost life experiences. And it’s kind of like at the peak of our learning we look back and go, okay, we’ve done all this work, we’ve saved all this money, and now we’re, we’re going to leave the workforce. And it’s like you’re kind of at your peak opportunity to mentor people to share your wisdom. And this book isn’t just about retirement but it’s about the way that we make, save, spend and invest to get to this point of life where we are no longer contributing in a way that we have maximum potential to contribute.
AJV (06:03):
What I also love is the way that it talks about this concept of, of richness and, and wealth and redefining really what that is in terms of money, but more importantly outside of money. And that is really the heart. And why I love this book is that money clearly is necessary to live. And there’s nothing wrong with having it. There’s nothing wrong with spending it. But it cannot have a hold on your life. It cannot be the number one reason of why we make decisions. It it cannot be the ruler of our life. We have to rule over it not the other way around. And so the psychology of money really helped me let go of some of the false beliefs that I had about money and investing and spending and saving. Because it, it is a book about like all the things, it talks about investing and spending and saving and making.
AJV (07:00):
So don’t get me wrong, it is not anti any of that. But at the core, it’s making sure that the decisions we make when it comes to money are not making money King of our life over family, God or, you know, just even yourself, right? And I think that is why I think this is so important, knowing that money is a tool and it is not a ruler, it’s a tool and we have to rule over it. So psychology of Money, number one. Number two is Traction by Gina Wickman. And I would say this is a entrepreneur’s guide to getting organized in your business. The subtitle of this book is Get a Grip On Your Business. And here’s what I love, and this is definitely one of those books you can even like look at this if you can, if you’re watching this versus listening like every other page is dogeared.
AJV (07:56):
I’ve got bookmarks and every, and here’s what I would say about this, is this really outlines how to start the operational side of your business. And this is just kind of one of those things. This is the opposite of the psychology of money. This is extraordinarily tactical with lots of step one, two, and three. This is how you outline your meeting. This is how you do an org chart. These are how you do job descriptions. These are how you run your meetings. These are how you set goals. This is how you get the team on the same page. It’s extremely tactical, extremely framework oriented and it really works more like a, a workbook than it does a book. And it goes through financial strategy, marketing strategy, operational strategy. And I really do believe this is one of the fundamental things that has helped us in terms of operations at Brand Builders Group.
AJV (08:54):
I picked this book up probably six or seven years ago when I joined eo, which is the ENT Entrepreneurs Organization. And a ton of people follow EOS which is kind of like the guide tool of traction. But I really started putting it into place at Brain Builders Group about five years ago when I realized like we got a whole bunch of people running in different directions, and we all have different priorities, and there’s not an overarching priority of where is everyone running, right? And instead of having some people go left, some go right, some going forward, some going backward, it’s like we needed to pull all of that together so that everyone was running in the same direction. And we run hard and we run fast, but we were not running in the same direction, right? And it, it felt like you were like, you know, being drug between four horses being quartered.
AJV (09:47):
And when we started doing traction, not that it has worked perfectly, but it has given us a a format. It has given us a tool where we can all speak the same language. We all talk about rocks, right? We have quarterly rocks. We all decide on those together. We then subdivide them by department and role. And we know that once we make these decisions, and this is the most important part, if we all agree on the decisions we make together, then we know what always takes precedent, what always is a priority amongst the other priorities, right? And if you’re in a fast growing company or a startup per se, then everything can feel like a priority until you say, no, this is the priority. And everything else sub is subservient to this priority. And I think that’s one of the things that I will mention in my next book that I’m gonna talk about which is procrastinate on purpose.
AJV (10:45):
You cannot have priorities, you can only have priority, right? That’s singular. And that’s what I think traction really helps you do as a small business owner, as an entrepreneur, is go, what are the task, the priorities that make up the primary priority that we’re all running towards? And how does everything else fit in its place? How do we talk about it? How do we operationalize it? How do we have meetings about it? How do we get everyone on the same page? So it is a very tactical workbook for anyone who needs a little organization in their business, right? So Traction, Gino Wickman which would lead me to my third, which is Procrastinate on purpose. Shameless plug, this is my husband’s book, Rory Vaden. And it is similar to the Psychology of Money in terms of what so many so many time management books talk about are the, the tacticals and the tips and techniques, which I do have another book that we’re gonna talk about that talks about that when it comes to productivity and time management.
AJV (11:53):
But what I love about Rory’s book, procrastinate on Purpose, you know, five permissions to Multiply Your Time, is it’s about the emotional side of time management. And I, I love the psychology part, the emotional side of a lot of these books, because that’s usually what we’re not tapped into, right? We’re we’re being taught all these new technologies and all these tools and all these tips and these tricks, and to-do lists and schedules and apps and all the things. And at the end of the day, those things only work. They only work. Same thing with the money, books, psychology, money, like all the investing strategies only work once you understand the emotional drivers of how you spend your money in that book. But in this book, procrastinating on Purpose, it’s the emotional drivers of how you spend your time. And both of these book made my top 10 because time and money are pretty much most commonly talked about things in business.
AJV (12:52):
At least in our business. It’s what do we have time for and what do we have money for, right? It’s what do we wanna spend our time on? What do we wanna spend our money on? It’s where do we need to save time? Where do we need to save money? Where do we need to invest time? Where do we need to invest money? It’s time and money. Time and money are also the two most common objections in sales, right? Time and money show up everywhere. And that should tell us if it is everywhere personally and professionally, we need to invest adequate amounts of time and understanding both the, you know, tactical side, but just as importantly, the emotional side, right? There is a logic to money and time. There is an emotion component though, to time and money. And what I love about Rory’s book is one, he’s, he’s so gifted a god give and talent and consolidating lots of ideas and thoughts into simple processes and frameworks that visualize how things go together.
AJV (13:51):
And so his focus funnel is one of the most probably talked about things. He has a very widespread Ted talk called How to Multiply Your Time on this. If you wanna get the highlighted version, even though I do recommend reading the book. But the focus funnel is a simple way of processing where you need to spend time. And I’ll, I’ll go through it really quickly. It’s like, you know, step one, when a task comes onto my plate at the first decision I need to make is, can this be eliminated? Right? And if it can’t be eliminated, then can it be automated? And if it can’t be automated, then can it be delegated? Okay? And if it can’t be delegated, can it be procrastinated on or does it become a priority? Right? And a priority means it has to be done. Now, procrastinate means it does need to be done, it just doesn’t need to be done now.
AJV (14:45):
But just walking through all the tasks in my life of what are the things that I’m spending time on that I should not be spending time on one because it shouldn’t be done at all, but I’m doing it for some reason, or it needs to be done. But there is a system that can be, it can automate it, or it, it does need to be done and it can’t be automated, but there is someone else who can and should be doing it. And that’s probably where I struggle, right? I struggle from the, I can do it better syndrome, or I can do it faster syndrome. It’s the curse of knowledge because I’ve been in the business a long time. Many business owners have this. And the truth is that’s actually only true for a short amount of time because once someone else is hired and trained and efficient in it, they actually can do it better than you and faster than you because they do it more than you, right?
AJV (15:34):
But that does take time, money and energy resources to pull that off. But it’s all about investing time into something now that will give you more time later. And that is the heart and the essence of the book is helping you understand when you say the words, I don’t have time or I’m so busy understanding why, where does that come from? Because those are all choices that we are making. So what are the choices that are causing responses or feelings like that? And then what can we do about it? One of my favorite books of all time, not just because my husband wrote it, but because we all struggle with those two words. I’m busy. And this will help eliminate those from your vernacular. Maybe not immediately, but if you follow it, eventually, eventually those start to fade and going, it’s, no, I’m not busy.
AJV (16:29):
These are choices I made. This is a priority, or I’m gonna do something about it. Right? okay, moving right along. On the same kind of topic of time management, there’s Rory’s book, procrastinate on Purpose, which is more of the emotional side. That is more of our choices that we make and what do we do about that. But then there’s another book by Dan Martel, don’t have a copy of it to share to show a picture of, because it was an audio book for me, but it’s called Buy Back Your Time. And to me as an entrepreneur, this is one of the best tactical books of systems and processes of how to do things like automate and delegate and prioritize. This is so, so helpful. Buy back your time. If you are in a place where you are actually ready to start delegating where you can afford staff and you have the time and energy, or even if you don’t have the time and energy, but you can afford it, and you have to make the time and energy, it is an amazing tool of working with a team and getting things off of your plate and how to get it on their plates.
AJV (17:39):
And I’m not talking about just an executive assistant or chief of staff, even though it does go into great detail about finding the person, hiring the person, training the person, getting them up to speed, how to meet with them. I love it. I use it with my chief of staff. It is a very important tactical tool in how I run my personal and professional life. But also, more importantly, how do you just get your team members up to speed, right? And this is a really great book about operationalizing systems, specifically SOPs, right? And you should only have to teach something one time. Let me repeat that. Dan talks about how you should only have to teach something one time, because if you do it the right way, you only have to do it one time. And the right way isn’t training a person, it’s building a process.
AJV (18:22):
It’s documenting an SOP. And he gives an amazing formula of how to build SOPs that are quick, efficient, and what the people will actually use using video tutorials and keeping all of your SOPs two pages or shorter. That’s right, two pages. We actually have some SOPs that are 56 pages at Brand Builders Group, and we are working our tails off on how do we get those down to two or three pages with bullet points and video tutorials. And that is a huge part of, it’s one thing to spend all this time into building SOPs and training people, but if the people leave and nobody will use the SOPs, that was time wasted. So how do you get it right the first time? And you only have to train something once because when you train it, you’re actually building the SOP, you’re building the video tutorial, so you never have to do it again.
AJV (19:10):
Such an amazingly tactical book and how to buy your time back, right? And that is buying it back through processes and SOPs and also people, so people and processes buy back your time. Dan Martel, such a good book. All right. I am staying on this kind of time management train for a second because it’s not just that important to me. It’s that important to all of us. This next book is one of the most life changing and business changing books of my entire life, and is also by one of my favorite authors. And this book is called The Ruthless Elimination of Hurry, by John Mark Comer. And I have read almost every book he has written, but this was the first one. This is when I fell in love with his writing. And I fell in love with it because it changed my life.
AJV (20:00):
This is, this is a book that I can literally point back to and go based on the changes that I made in my life. I am a new and better person. I am a new and better mom, a new and better wife, a new and better leader, a new and better business owner. And I can also trace back the quarter that I read this book in 2022, which was Spring of 2022, quarter two. I read this book and had an epiphany that we were just doing too much. ’cause At the end of the day, a a hurry is a byproduct of being over committed, of trying to do too much. And I had this epiphany of I was feeling burnout and going, I don’t know if I can continue running at this speed. I, I don’t know if I have it in me.
AJV (20:49):
I don’t, I don’t know if I want to have it in me. And after reading this book, I sat down and created a brand new business plan for Brand Builders Group. This was four years after being in business. And we were addicted to saying Yes, yes, we can do that. Yes, we’ll figure that out. Yes, we’ll add that. Yes, we can try to do that for you. Yes, yes, yes. Because one, we love ideas. We’re little idea factories, but we also, we, we wanna be a place of innovation and change and listening to our customers. And we were really plagued with saying yes to every opportunity. And I rewrote a business plan for Brand Builders Group and the business plan, including cutting half of our offerings. And that was scary. It included changing our pricing structure, how we priced it, what we offered how we did things. And we went from seven service offerings down to three in the matter of three months. And over the next year, we doubled our business.
AJV (21:59):
Not only did our business double in terms of revenue, but our business actually doubled in terms of client count and employee size. And that was pretty extreme growth for us. ’cause We were experiencing 10% growth, 15% growth year over year. And from 2022 to 2023, we doubled in business, doubled in size, both clients employees and in revenue. And I can trace, trace that change back to implementing some of the things that were ahas for me from reading this book. The Ruthless Elimination of Hurry, of How More is not better always. There is not this incessant need of always doing more, but there needs to be an incessant need of always doing better, right? Better is better, not more is better. And I’m not saying less is better. In this case, less was better. It was better for us. ’cause It allowed us to focus in on our expertise, focus in on our avatar, focus in on our service offerings and double down.
AJV (23:03):
But what it really allowed us to do is by doing less, we were allowed to do those things exceptionally better, right? And that’s what it’s about. It’s not about doing more or less per se, but it’s about choosing less so you can do it better and have it be more enjoyable and less stressful, and actually enjoy the other components of life and business. And that all stemmed from the ruthless elimination of Hurry. And I was, I was ruthless in 2022 about removing stress, anxiety, busyness, and hurry from my life. It’s probably one of the books I need to go back and read at the beginning of every year. This is, this is a reread. Like I would say this is one of those books that I would encourage a, a read every year because these are the things that we forget so often and we get caught up in the rat race once again.
AJV (23:56):
But this is one of the most impactful and significant books of my life. The Ruthless Elimination of Harry by John Mark Comer. So if that is not a testimonial, I don’t know what is. Okay, next books are kind of taking a slightly different turn. Talked about money, talked about time and now we’re gonna talk about some other things that I think are really important. So I’ll start with leadership, right? Clearly it’s an entrepreneur bookshelf. We should have that. This is one of my favorite books on leadership. It’s Leaders Eat Last by Simon Sinek. I love this. It’s like the subtitle is why some teams pull together and others don’t. And this is an oldie. I probably read this 15 years ago, but still reference it, remember it. And you know, what I remember the most is the actual title.
AJV (24:51):
And I remember shortly after reading this book my, the first company that I was a part of went on an incentive trip. This is not Brand Builders Group, this was pre-and Builders Group. And we went to Belize and I was the part of the executive team organizing this trip for our top producers. And we just happened to go to Belize during this tropical storm
AJV (25:39):
And I heard them tell this top producer of ours who is, you know, a guest on the trip, Hey, we are out of King Beds. Not the most convenient thing to hear as you’re checking in with your wife. We only have two double beds left. And I just saw the look that they had on each other’s faces. And I am not the hero of this story. The book is the hero of this story. And I remember reading this book and going, leaders Eat Last. And in that particular case, what it meant is leaders get the two double beds, the team gets the king bed. And I walked up and I just said, Hey, can you please swap our rooms? And it wasn’t a big deal to me at the time. It really wasn’t. It was a, a conscious decision to go, you first, me last.
AJV (26:33):
And it was a conscious decision to go, I will be the first one to step forward. And I’m gonna, I’m gonna take the bullet on this one. We can manage four nights and two double beds so that you can enjoy a trip that you earned. And again, I am not the hero in the, in the story of the book is. But doing that, what it did for the producer was probably one of the most impactful things in my life that I didn’t even expect of the gratitude and the, the, the loyalty and the thankfulness of going, you didn’t have to do that. It’s like, yeah, but I did because I, I chose to be the leader. Here I am choosing to raise my hand first to forge into battle first, to take the first risk. And that’s what you’re doing as an entrepreneur, right?
AJV (27:22):
I actually, I, I love, like on the back it says, leaders are the ones who run headfirst into the unknown. They are the ones to rush into the danger. They put their own interests aside to protect the team or to pull us into the future. Leaders would soon sacrifice what is theirs to save, what is ours. And they would never sacrifice what is ours to save what is theirs. That is what it means to be a leader. It means to choose first to go into danger headfirst into the unknown, right? And that’s just on the back of the book, right? Like, like who’s not inspired to read that? A little bit of okay, what, what does it really mean to be a leader? And in this regard, it’s, it’s choosing to put others first. And how do you do that, right? How do you do that in business?
AJV (28:09):
How do you do that in your team when there is a, a, a self-centered self nature to all of us? I, I promise you it was not my heart’s desire to give up that king bed on that trip. And at the same time, it wasn’t also the ultimate sacrifice, right? It, it was a choice of going, no, I made the decision to step into this leadership role. So I have to make the choice to also put others first. That’s what I’m choosing as a leader. And I can think of countless other times through my life, even though I may not remember all the words on the pages of this book, however, like many others, it’s dogeared throughout. And I still have bookmarks highlighting the pages that I refer back to constantly. What it, what it really is, is the reminder that as a leader, I am choosing last, I am choosing to put the team first.
AJV (29:03):
I am choosing to put others ahead of me. I’m choosing to serve them above myself, right? And not serve anyone person over the whole, that’s not what I’m saying. It actually talks a lot about that. But what are the, the micro decisions we can make every day? And what are the macro decisions that we can make that affect a whole lifespan of a business or a team or a person? And I think that’s why I love this book, and I can just, I, I, I think I probably even said, remember, leaders eat last hundreds of times over the last 15 years. And without any explanation, the team gets it, right? Other leaders get it. They’re like, yes, I understand this is a decision I made, I step into this. But reading this book helps you understand what are those micro decisions to make?
AJV (29:54):
How do you step into it and how do you do it on a daily basis, but also on a, a much larger scale. So one of my favorite leadership books, leaders Eat Last Simon Sinek. I could go on and on about it. All right, in that same vein, I know, right? I’m, I’m trying to make up some time here. Another one that I would, I would, I would call this for me, a leadership book, extreme Ownership by Jocko Willink and Le Babin. And I don’t have a physical copy because it was an audio book. And if you have read the book and haven’t listened to the audio, I would highly encourage you to do that, because I think the storytelling component of Jocko and Le and this book is so powerful, and it’s kind of like a, an audio page turner.
AJV (30:38):
Like, I remember going like, okay, I need to go on a walk, or, or I need to go on a drive so I can put this in and listen to it. It, it’s one of those things that it’s just really enjoyable to listen to the storytelling components of it, the emotional side. So, hey, wife, if you haven’t listened to it, highly encouraged, but Extreme Ownership was actually a mandatory read two years ago at Brand Builders Group. Every quarter we put a book that the entire company reads together. And Q1 of 2023 was a mandatory read of extreme ownership. And it was one of the best decisions that we ever made as a, as a company to go. One, we’re going to read books together, mandatory. And two, this book. And I think one of the things that I love about this book is, well, one, I do have mad respect for our military and Navy Seals and the stories and the lessons of leadership that come out of that.
AJV (31:35):
Because like, when I think about my daily battles in leadership, they are microscopic to the significance of the ones that these people are making in our military. And just, it puts it in perspective of when I’m stressed out about a formula on a spreadsheet of the stress that carries, and knowing that you carry someone’s life in your hands, a true life or death. And it’s a really good book on perspective of what we call stress and anxiety and where we worry in the scheme of things, right? And it’s been a great reminder to me of like, this is not a life and death situation, aj, it is okay if there was a, a, a spelling error on the PowerPoint, chill out. And at the same time, knowing that there is a power and ownership of stepping in and as a, as a leader, right?
AJV (32:31):
This is a leadership book of going, at the end of the day, someone’s gotta own it. And I’m not saying that as the entrepreneur, you own all of it, but at the end of the day you’re the business owner. It comes to you, right? You own the discipline of your team. You own the structure and the operational excellence. You own it by creating a culture of ownership. And I think this is a pH phenomenal book, both in storytelling and anecdotes and stories and examples, but also the emotional and the tactical side, which I really love. There are lots of strategic components to this paired with real life stories and examples both military speaking, but also business case studies. And I think it’s a really powerful thing to step into any business of going the end of the day, whether we succeed or fail, I’m gonna own it.
AJV (33:26):
And again, that’s for everyone in the company to have that attitude. It’s going, Hey, if this didn’t go right, I own the mistake. And if it did, I get a part of owning some of the win. Not all of it. ’cause You know, it never happens alone. But also having someone who steps in and who can quickly go, my bad, that was my mistake. I won’t have, I won’t make it again. It won’t happen again. Versus the person who’s going to, you know, pass blame, not own it, not tell, try to cover it up. This is about transparency. This is about teamwork. This is about honesty, integrity, and it’s about ownership of how do we, how do we create ownership in a task, in a project so that no one is looking around going, so who’s to blame here? And instead, everyone is going like, my part, my part got done.
AJV (34:19):
But at the end of the day, what matters most is did the thing get done? And that’s what I would recommend about this book. If you feel like you have a team where people are going, Hey, I did my part, but yet somehow the whole project didn’t get done, then we gotta, we got an ownership problem because someone’s gotta own all pieces of it. And that’s where I think teams really come together or fall apart, is for the person going, oh, no, I did my part Uhuh, that was not my department. That was not my role of going. We need a team of going, it didn’t have to be my job. I ensured it got done. It didn’t have to be my department. I’m gonna be a part of making sure it gets done right. And that’s what I love about Extreme ownership. So extreme Ownership, Jocko Willink and Le Babin, amazing book.
AJV (34:59):
And I think just really important on a cultural standpoint of do you have a team who comes together and gets stuff done, or does it fall apart? And the projects linger and deadlines extend. And if that’s it, you got an ownership problem. And this is a great book to read in that vein. Now, on that note, there’s another audio book that I love. This is a new read. I actually just read this book this year in 2024. It’s called Hidden Potential by Adam Grant. And one, i, I would say it is also to me in the leadership vein because it’s about seeking and searching for the potential within your team, right? And I actually am gonna pull up some of the quick notes that I took on this. And just to kind of give you some highlights of what I love what one person can learn proves that almost anyone can learn it if provided with the right learning opportunities and environment, right?
AJV (36:03):
And I think that’s kind of the first thing. It’s like what one person can learn proves that almost anyone can learn that too, if provided with the right learning opportunities and environment. And I think therein lies the heart of hidden potential of going, they may not believe it, you may not believe it, but if somebody else has done it, then someone else can do it. But the opportunity and the environment have to be structured in a way that allows that potential to emerge. And a part of our job as leaders is to provide those opportunities and environment, right? And I, I love that as I look at my team here at Brand Builders Group of going like, where are there opportunities of hidden potential in every single person and every role in every department? And where am I not providing the right opportunities for those things to emerge?
AJV (36:54):
And maybe that opportunity is an invitation. Maybe it’s training maybe it’s a conversation, whatever it may be, but it has opened my eyes to seeing our team and the roles we have and the gaps we have in completely new, in different ways. The second thing I would just say this is I think really important in general for someone like me who’s a little bit type A high D likes to get things done, eight on the Enneagram this is a really important one for me, is potential is not about where you start, but how far you travel. And that’s one of the things that I’ve looked back and I’m going, wow. It, it’s, it’s not about where we started, it’s about how far we’ve come. And if someone can go, you know, completely from, you know, left to right in terms of growth and change, it’s like there is potential of going, there is more to be done, right?
AJV (37:53):
And looking at the span of what people have overcome, have learned that is an enormous thing that I now pay attention to in interviews of what were they able to overcome, how far have they come from where they started? And that shows so much about work ethic and personal growth and determination and endurance and perseverance. And those are things, those are the things that I wanna build a team around, right? I also loved this whole thing. It’s like, if you’re comfortable, you’re doing it wrong to Ted Lasso quote and Hidden Potential. And I love that, and I love that as a reminder for me, for my own hidden potential. And I think one of the reasons I loved Hidden Potential so much is it wasn’t about just our team, it was about me too. It’s like, where am I comfortable? Like, where do I still have potential to grow, change and evolve as a human, as a leader, as a business owner, as a mom, as wife?
AJV (38:55):
And so Adam Grant Hidden Potential, I think this is also in line with a, it’s a, it’s a people book. It’s a leadership book. It’s about looking for intentionally and finding ways to see the hidden potential all around you and the people on your team and the people that you’re interviewing. And I think this is about exploration into how do we help people tap into what they were meant to become. And just because they aren’t, that doesn’t mean they can’t be that. And just kind of going back to that first thing, it’s like what one person has learned proves that almost anyone can learn it, provided that we create, and that there is, you know, a created opportunity and environment that allows for it. So what can we do to cultivate such an environment? I love the book. I thought it was so good.
AJV (39:44):
Okay, moving right along here, unreasonable Hospitality. This is also a newer read for me, unreasonable Hospitality, will Gera is now on my permanent, probably top three books of all time that I’ve ever read. And I would also encourage if you do listen to audio to read this, because I think Will is an amazing storyteller, and he’s so animated and it, the whole thing feels like an adventure. It, it feels like you’re on this journey with him. From, you know, being a restaurateur to having the top rated restaurant in the entire world 11 Madison Park, to building a team and building a culture and to be one of the top restaurateur and not be a chef, right? To be from the operation side. And knowing that like he actually did what he went to school for and had a passion for it as a young person.
AJV (40:41):
And then to make the decision to leave that for the betterment of the business and for the team. There is so much in here about creativity and a service and hospitality that I feel like has been lost and unreasonable. Hospitality is really, how do you love people? Well, how do you love your team? Well, how do you love your customers? Well how do you just love people? And in this particular book, it’s through the Art of hospitality, of making people feel welcome and cared for, paying attention to the little details. And they don’t have to be expensive. But they do need to be personal. They need to be curated and unique so that people don’t feel like they’re a, a number, they feel like a person. And, and also providing your team with just enough opportunity to make decisions on their own, right?
AJV (41:41):
Nothing that’s gonna financially break the bank, right? We all have to have ownership back to extreme ownership of the health of, of the business, but also just enough, you know, bandwidth to be creative and unique, to do something on the spot. Or you don’t get caught up in a bunch of bureaucracy and red tape, and you, goodness, you can’t even buy someone a, a thank you card without getting higher approval. Right? And I think this is a beautiful story and a tangible book on how do you love people really well through hospitality, through gifting, through experiences, through words, through food, which I loved, right? Through food. But how do you care? How do you serve people and unique ways through the, the gift and the art of unreasonable hospitality unreasonable amounts sometimes to go. It is not always about a dollar.
AJV (42:37):
And I might lose on this one, but it’s worth it because I know that at some point it’ll come back. It you just love and serve people really well. That is the best marketing you can have, right? We say this all the time at Brand Builders Group, is that the best thing in the world is to turn your customer force into your sales force. How do you do that? You serve your customers undeniably well, and if you love them well and serve them well and provide for them well, they will become your sales force. And that is word of mouth marketing, right? That’s referral marketing. That is why 11 Madison Park had unbelievable reservation wait lists,
AJV (43:29):
And also one of the things that got them to be rated one, not be one of the best, the best restaurant in the world. And I think Will’s story of creativity, of leadership, of culture is unfounded in this book through the Art of Loving People really Well, one of my favorite books of all time. This was also a mandatory read at Brand Builders Group. If that tells you anything unreasonable Hospitality Will Guera. So, so good. Okay. ninth book it’s called Nothing to Prove, Jenny Allen. And subtitle is why we Can’t Stop Trying So Hard. And out of all the books that I’ve recommended this is probably the one that is most personally associated because this book is really tailored, catered to the person who finds their worth in their work. And that was me. I, it, it’s still me.
AJV (44:28):
I, I’m overcoming this, right? But this was specifically designed for, I believe, entrepreneurs who find their identity into what they do. Or, you know, it could be the stay at home mom who finds her identity and her kids. And one day those kids grow up and leave. And as a mom, we look in the mirror and we go, who am I? And as entrepreneurs, sometimes we sell our businesses, we retire or the business doesn’t work out, and we look in the mirror and we go, who am I? Like if I don’t have this, who am I? And I know so many friends who have built wonderfully successful businesses that went on to have wonderful exits, only to find that they now felt lost, lonely, empty, and without purpose. And that happens when we have made our work, our identity, when we have found our worth and what we do versus who we are.
AJV (45:32):
And I love this book. This is author, the second book that I would say in my list that has radically changed my life. People will look back at me and be like, man, you’re, you’re different. You, you sound different. You seem different. Like your energy is different. And I will trace it back and go, if you think. So, it’s because of this book. Nothing To Prove by Jenny Allen. She’s also one of my favorite authors that I have gone on to read almost every other book that she has written. And it’s because I’m her avatar. I am the person who struggles with finding my worth and what I do, and my productivity and my accomplishments and my ambition. And I am the person who struggles with finding my identity in work. And that is a conscious thing that I’m working through to overcome.
AJV (46:20):
But if, if that is you, this book was written for you. It was written for your heart, it was written for your soul, and if you allow it to, it will change your life. So Jenny Allen, nothing to prove one of the most life changing books I’ve ever read. And it has changed the way I approach work and how and how I work, because now I know that is not who I am. That is not my worth. I’m so much more than that. And it is no longer my identity. My identity expands way beyond that. And even though we know that when you’re faced with it being gone it’s a whole different reality. And might as well be proactive. Let’s get ahead of that. And this is a book that will really help you do that.
AJV (47:07):
Nothing to prove. Okay? actually that was number 10. But I had a, I had a bonus one sitting over here, so I forgot. So those were my top 10 books. So I, psychology of Money, Morgan Housel, nothing to Prove Jenny Allen, hidden Potential. Adam Grant, unreasonable Hospitality Will Guera Extreme Ownership. Jocko Willink and Le Babin, the ruthless elimination of her. John Mark Comer, procrastinate on purpose. Mother of One and only Ry Vaden, my awesome husband. Buy Back Your Time, Dan Martel Traction. Gina Wickman and Leaders Eat Last Simon Sinek. And then I have an 11th bonus one. Because I, I would be remiss if I didn’t also mention take The Stairs but also my amazing husband, Rory Vaden. And this was his first book released in 2010. And here we are 14 years later, and this is still probably like the most requested keynote that he gets.
AJV (48:07):
This book has been out for 14 years. It’s still, it, it still, it, it’s, it’s a, it’s an evergreen classic of, you know, what are the things that you need to know about business and life and yourself to achieve true success? And defining what true success is. And take the Stairs is, it’s really a, a metaphor for just because you don’t want to doesn’t mean you should, right? And I think there’s a, a lot of truth in going, like, man, there are things that we don’t want to do, but they are good for us. And they produce character and endurance in ways that nothing else can. And it’s not that we should only want to do hard things, but it’s, it’s facing the challenges and facing the hard things are what build character. Nobody looks back on the easy days and go, man, that really defined me.
AJV (49:01):
That doesn’t happen. Nobody looks back on all the victories and successes and, and, and said, man, that, that success is what made me who I am today. We don’t do that. We actually look back and go, man, that valley that I was living in a really long time that defeat, that failure, that loss, that’s where I found my strength. That’s where I found who I am. And I think a lot of what I love about this book, take The Stairs, is it’s embracing hard things and it, it’s choosing to do things even when you don’t feel like doing them because you know they’re good for you, right? And it’s determining what those things are. How do you make those choices? That was my bonus pick for my entrepreneur bookshelf. Take the Stairs by Rory Baden, seven Steps to Achieving True Success. Y’all, there you go. This is our, my solo, summer solo episode, the Entrepreneur Bookshelf 10 books with a bonus, 11 of what I believe every entrepreneur should know and read and embrace to not only do work that you love but to actually do good in the world. So check ’em out, let me know what you think, catch you next time on the influential personal brand.
Ep 506: How to Scale a Coaching Business from Scratch with Jordan Montgomery
RV (00:00):
To, you know, every once in a while I meet someone and I go, man, this person is a rolling stone. Like, this person is making a big impact in the world, and they’re gonna be big. And that’s how I feel about Jordan Montgomery. I’ve heard this guy’s name for years and we’ve kind of gotten to know each other a little bit. He became an official client, a brand builders group. Through that, our team’s really gotten to know him and he’s really, really impressive. So he is an executive coach. He coaches you know, top, top athletes high performing CEOs, entrepreneurs, et cetera. He’s also a very busy speaker, keynote speaker. And so he speaks to sales organizations, small business owners, and just talks really about high performance in general and, and has worked with he, he was a sales manager and managed top performing sales teams. So he came, he comes outta the financial services industry. We’ll hear a little bit about that. He’s got a new book coming out called The Art of Encouragement. We definitely want to hear a little bit about that. And you just wanna hear his story about how he has made the transition from somebody working in professional services to moving into, I think, becoming one of the fastest rising stars in the, in the space of sales and leadership and communication and just like personal development in general. So, Jordan, welcome to the show, man.
JM (01:24):
Rory, thanks for having me, man. So fun to be with you. Honored to be here. Fun to share some time with your audience. And for so long, I’ve respected your work, respect, what you’ve built at brand Builders. Actually heard you speak circa 2013 in Chicago, Illinois. Really, it was my first experience being in, I remember this, a Marie Vaden room, and I just thought, man, this is a guy that I wanna follow I wanna learn from. And man, just fun to grow a friendship and kind of surreal man, longtime listener. First time caller to be on, to be on your show. So thanks for having me,
RV (01:57):
JM (02:00):
Was it, man. Yeah, you got it.
RV (02:01):
You got it. You were a speaker. You were also speaking, right? I also speaking, you were working for the company at the time. That’s
JM (02:06):
Right. That’s right. Yep. And so I was a manager at the time, and you were the outside, you know, keynote speaker, and I think it was after you had written the book, take the Stairs, and you delivered a great keynote message. And I just remember thinking, I gotta follow this guy and learn from him and continue to spend time with him. So 11 years ago, man, in a ballroom in Chicago.
RV (02:25):
So, so that’s really cool. So tell us the story about how you transitioned. You know, I think particularly in like professional services, we meet a lot of people who are, you know, they’re successful lawyers, they’re, you know, accountants, they’re doctors, they’re financial advisors, and they grow a great practice. And a lot of times they grow a great practice because they’re consuming personal development content and knowledge. And it’s a pretty common path that they go, man, I think I wanna do more of this. I wanna spend more time teaching, training, coaching others. But it’s hard to, you know, like not many people make that leap fully successfully. You’ve, you’ve done a really great job. So can you talk to us about, like, how did you go about doing that? When did it all happen? How did you kind of structure it and like, when did you kind of, you make that transition? Hmm.
JM (03:18):
Well, I wish my story was one of like, extreme success meets like extreme success, but it wasn’t that way. There were a few bumps in the road. There was actually a really large bump in the road, and the bump occurred April 1st, 2015. So I get a call from my then supervisor. I’m working in financial services for a Fortune 100 firm. I have one of the top offices and organizations in that firm. It grew really quickly. I came from kind of a blue collar background, Rory. So my dad’s a painter. Mom’s a teacher, didn’t really have any relationship with money growing up. The
RV (03:53):
Right? Iowa.
JM (03:54):
Iowa, man, small town, Iowa. Yep. One stoplight town. God bless, Kelowna, Iowa. And so, man, like when I graduated college, I just knew like I’m willing to work and my dad taught me the power of like, working hard. So I got that from dad and I worked, man, and I, I just, I was putting in the 70, 80 hour weeks. And so from 22 to 25 that business consumed my life. And I had some success. I had a lot of success. To kind of paint the picture before I tell you about April 1st, 2015, I’m traveling the country. I’m speaking at all these major conferences. I’m flying private. I’m the closing keynote speaker at a lot of major industry events. Matter of fact, I was the closing keynote speaker at one of the largest industry events. It’s 15,000 people sold out MBA arena.
JM (04:38):
I am living in like the proverbial penthouse. But I had an issue, Rory, I was overexposed and I was underdeveloped, meaning my character wasn’t really keeping pace with my influence. Hmm. I was so young and so naive. And I had sort of been on this rocket ship to like this crazy professional space that I really wasn’t ready for. And so April 1st, 2015, I get this text message from my then supervisor and he says I need to meet, I need to meet with you right away. To which I respond because I was naive. I don’t have time. My calendar’s full. Not today, but maybe some other day,
JM (05:31):
So then I’m thinking, Rory, someone on my team must have made a grave mistake. I gotta go clean it up. ’cause I’m, you know, sort of player coach. I’m running an office, but I’m still doing financial planning. I walk into his office a couple hours later, and this is what he says to me, Rory, he said, you haven’t been malicious or intentional, but you’ve been careless and casual. And when you’re casual, you create casualties, said, Jordan, this is gonna be really uncomfortable for you, but today you’re the casualty. This will be your last day with our firm.
JM (06:03):
The story was, there was a person on my team who had taken a test on, on be on my behalf, was a continuing education assessment. And that industry, that’s an infraction. It can’t happen. But moreover, there were just like things that I was missing, Rory, in my development and my leadership wasn’t dotting i’s wasn’t crossing the T’s and it was within his right to say, I don’t trust your wisdom, discernment, your leadership, your development, and so you can go work somewhere else. You just can’t work here. Well, this was devastating for a 27-year-old man. He found all of his identity in achievement, status, accomplishment. It, it becomes more devastating. The company sends out a company wide email with my name on it that explains my termination, kind of at a high level. I get about 3000 text messages within a matter of, you know, 24 hours.
JM (06:54):
And I just sort of go into hiding. I didn’t just lose my job. I lost all my money. I was involved in some real estate deals. They go sideways ’cause they weren’t structured properly. And I literally, Rory go from like the penthouse to the outhouse overnight. A guy by the name of Tim Bohannon scoops me up, says, you can come work for me. Same firm, min apple, Minnesota, I’ll give you a second chance, but here’s how this is gonna work. No speaking, no training. You’re gonna rebuild your business and rebuild your life and I’m gonna help you do it, but it’s gonna be really tough. And it was tough. So for two years, man, I’m in this valley season I think God does his best work in the valley. And I read my Bible and I got connected to a church and I started to call home to mom and dad and rebuild some relationships that I had sort of let go of.
JM (07:40):
And God just met me in that place in a really, really broken place. And I met my now wife who was coming out of a rough divorce. So we kind of met both in a broken place. And what I didn’t know, Rory, is God was preparing me for my biggest leadership job, which was gonna be becoming a daddy to two little girls, ages five and three. I dated Ashley for six months. We got engaged, we got married. Six months later I moved back home to Iowa. I’m still doing financial planning. I looked at her and I said, babe, I just, I got this itch for coaching. I started coaching five people. Coach 10 got open doors, 10 turned into a hundred, a hundred turned into a thousand. And I left the financial planning business behind. And I say all that to say this for most of us, we wanna pivot from a place of strength.
JM (08:28):
Like we think that it’s like, again, extreme success meets extreme success. But for me it wasn’t that way. Like I think God’s preparation was packaged as pain and I had to go through some really, really tough stuff to ultimately get to where I’m at today. And I want people to know that about my story. And I write about that in the Art of Encouragement. It’s actually the first chapter. And we talk about the art of character, encouragement and encouraging people in valley seasons. And man, God just met me in a really unique place and I was fortunate to have some people that stepped into my life who encouraged me and cared for me in a really unique and special way.
RV (09:09):
Mm-Hmm.
JM (09:28):
That’s right. So I moved back home to Iowa, kind of moved the practice with me. I still planned to grow that business, right? So I’d rebuilt the business. I didn’t plan Roy to start a coaching business. I just thought I’ll coach a few people on the side as I’m running this financial planning business. But I, I can’t explain it other than like, I think God blessed it, but I think I also had to I had to be humbled. Like there had to be something in me that changed for me to really be ready to do that work at a high level. And so it’s that old adage that like, sometimes God asked to do something in you before he can do something with you. So I think he just changed my spirit, my empathy, my compassion, my heart for people and, and then blessed it man. Like yeah, today we get work with pro athletes and high level CEOs and I got a team of 22 people who does this work at the highest level around the country. And it’s been a, a real joy.
RV (10:20):
Mm-Hmm.
JM (11:01):
Yeah, so let’s speak to some brand builders who wanna scale and we didn’t do everything right. So full disclosure, there was so much that I did wrong and there’s things that I would redo. But if there’s one thing that we did right it’s that I think I was willing to let go early on and trust and empower some other coaches. Hmm. And I’m really proud of that. I think for so many of us, we, we can be control freaks as type A, you know, leaders of people. But I realized early on, like, unless I’m just gonna sell my time and fill every slot on my calendar and live sort of a miserable life that’s totally consumed every hour of my day by work I’m gonna have to figure out a, a different way to do this. And so Rory, I I just started connecting with other people who do some coaching. They were established leaders who wanted to take on a handful of clients. And we sort of just organically grew the business and I wanted to make sure that I over-delivered in every situation. So we had a really referable brand. We grew our business through word of mouth scale to team, but I let go early. And our friend Craig Rochelle says this, you can have control or growth, but you can’t have both.
RV (12:15):
Mm-Hmm,
JM (12:18):
Up control was really scary. But I learned to just sort of step into the pain of being less than excellent. I didn’t have all the answers, I just realized that I needed to build the plane as I fly it. And I had to do that with the help of other good people. And also that there’s other people that had expertise that I didn’t have. And so yeah, letting go early was for sure a, a key move for us.
RV (12:42):
Mm-Hmm.
JM (12:50):
Yep. Yep. So they’re all 10 99 independent contractors. Some of them have 40 clients, some of them have five clients. Some of ’em will speak 50 times a year. Some of them will speak five times a year. And so they’re all different in terms of their capacity, their background, their skillset. But I wanted to build sort of a robust team where from a personal development, leadership development place, we can help and equip just about anybody in any situation. So if somebody comes to us, says, Hey, I wanna coach, I wanna grow my development in most cases we have an answer. Not always, and I certainly don’t have the answer, but because we have a team, we’re I think uniquely equipped to help a variety of people.
RV (13:31):
Mm-Hmm.
JM (13:45):
Okay, so I’m gonna say this tongue in cheek because this is the Brand Builders podcast, right? And we’re talking to people who wanna build a brand. So you should build a brand, but you should also just be really, really, really good at what you do. I was having this conversation with John Maxwell the other day, Rory, and he said, you know, so many people come to me because they want me to like, put my stamp on them. You know, they want me to sign off on them or help them kind of build their name or thrust them out into the world and give them a bigger platform. And John said, I, you know, I can do that in some cases, but what happened to just being really, really good at what you do? Like he said, a lot of young people should be worried less about like their reputation and brand and more concerned about being really good at what they do. Now, this is the Brand Builders podcast, Rory, you’re thinking, okay, hold on. Like, we still want people to build a brand. They need to,
RV (14:42):
No, I’m not. I, that that is, that’s how we define brand is reputation. Like it is, right? Brand is not, it’s not reputation. You’re, you’ve got pretty websites and nice videos and beautiful colors and, and, and nice fonts that pair well together. Like, that is not what brand is. Brand is reputation. That’s, that’s how we do, that’s the core of how we find it. It define it. So like, I’m, I’m Amen. I I think I’m, I’m, I’m behind that a hundred percent.
JM (15:11):
Well, you and I, yeah, you and I align in terms of, I think how we think about growth and scale and brand. And you know, for me, I just realized early on, like, I need to overdeliver and I need to make sure that I’m really good at what I do. And we’d ask for, you know, an endorsement, a testimonial, connection, introduction. And, but I think it was really through being good at what we do and developing reputation that allowed us to scale.
RV (15:33):
Mm-Hmm.
JM (16:02):
That’s part of the reason that we’re working with brand builders full disclosure, is because we have a lot of work to do and, and we have opportunity to grow. And, and I would say, yeah, a lot of what we’ve done is, you know, we’ve built the brand around me, which is both good and bad. But I think again, we’ve, it’s gotta be less about me and more about the company. And I think we’re in that transition phase sort of right now, transparently Rory, of figuring out like, how do we move this away from Jordan and more towards team? Because we we’re fortunate that we do have a lot of just inbound, you know, inquiries based on building reputation and brand. But then there’s some strategy that goes into it as well. We host some webinars, we do some live events, virtual events. So we’ve been really fortunate to spend off opportunity from that. And then when those opportunities come in, my brother, who’s the director of coaching sort of filters those opportunities to the appropriate team members. But we have a lot of work to do. You know, I think we’re just getting started in so many ways in terms of what God’s called us to and what we hope to eventually build.
RV (16:58):
Now you’ve also done speaking so simultaneous. So you’ve, you’ve built a great coaching business, which I love. And I, I love the coaching model ’cause I just, I think it applies massive value to the customer quickly. It app it, it applies real significant meaningful revenue to the coach. And it’s, it creates, there’s a scalable opportunity and great, I think great content comes outta great coaching conversations and all that. But then speaking is very different. That’s a very different skillset. It’s a very different business model. It’s like more of a B2B where coaching, coaching is like business to consumer speaking is like business to business coaching is one-on-one speaking is one on many. You know, I think coaching is, is like, you know, very organic and I think speaking is much more like polished and like you, you know that, so how did you, when did you really start? Did you, when did you start building the speaking side of things and how fast did that take off compared to the coaching business?
JM (18:02):
Well, they’re uniquely tied together to your point. I would speak and then because I spoke, I would naturally have, you know, inquiries on the coaching side of the business. And like any other speaker just like you, Rory, like I’ve become more selective over time on what fits and what works. In the beginning though, if I’m talking to some folks who wanna speak or maybe you’re doing some speaking and you’re trying to scale that business, like I, I would just go back to be good at what you do and also be willing to do stuff either for free or for very little. If there’s one thing I’m proud of, like when we started that business I would just, I’d speak and I’d speak to small groups. I’d speak to churches, I’d speak to youth sports teams. And I just, I never I was never too good for that.
JM (18:47):
And I’m, I’m proud of that. And some of our best relationships that we have today, Rory came out of those environments and I see so many people that wanna speak who aren’t willing to do that work. I’m talking to one of the top speakers on the planet, like Rory Vaden is a, well-known, unbelievably gifted keynote speaker. But I think part of your magic, Rory, is you had humility and still do today to serve and add value and jump in where God’s called you to reach people. So, you know, in the beginning it was like, man, I do stuff for a cup of coffee or a really small check or sometimes, you know, again, just for free for the relational opportunities. But I was always really keen on follow up, making sure that I communicated the fact that I didn’t want this to be a one-time engagement.
JM (19:34):
Like, Hey, I would love for our impact to go beyond today. I would love to better serve your organization in a deeper and more intentional way. And so we had a really strategic follow up process to engage with the company beyond the stage. And I think that’s where so many speakers go wrong, is they come in for an event, they get a 25,000 check or whatever the check is, they feel good about it and they move on. And there’s really no process for engaging with that culture or with that group of people in a deeper way. So for us, that became a big part of growing the company, is making sure that we had a follow up process that was really dialed in.
RV (20:07):
Mm-Hmm.
RV (21:01):
I was doing high schools, I was doing cheerleading teams, I was doing standup mic, you know, open mic nights to four people at some crummy like com. Yes. You know, comedy bar like a anywhere and everywhere. And I did, you know, hundreds of Toastmaster groups that were all like between three and three and a, a large audience was like eight people. You know, local real estate offices and car dealerships. Like, I mean, I was going anywhere that people would listen for for like three years, four years, like a, a, a hot minute. Did most of your speaking engagements evolve out of that? So basically was it like, speak for free, do an amazing job, get referred to people who have money, or was it like, let’s build a system to go prospect people who have money and pitch me as a speaker?
JM (21:55):
I think it was a combination of both. I think, again, what worked for us is I knew the audience that I would work well with. So first off is like, be really thoughtful. Like as you continue to grow experience and you gain confidence, then I think be strategic and thoughtful about where you would work. Well, so I knew my, my deal, Rory, is I would work really well with folks. You know, the emerging professional, typically under 40 years old, he was trying to grow a sales oriented or people oriented business. Mm-Hmm.
JM (22:38):
And we, and then we’d have, you know, a lot of coaching inquiries that would come off of that. From a speaking standpoint, I would just follow up with the person who booked me to speak and I would just be really candid. I think, you know, so often this isn’t complicated. Like, I think we just, we overthink it. I’d just say like, Hey, I really enjoy being with your people. I love speaking to organizations like yours. If there were three to five people that you think I should be spending time with, I’d love to know who those folks are. And in the spirit of adding value yeah, I’d love an endorsement or testimonial. Like I just, it’d mean a lot to me if you’d be willing to share a couple, you know, kind thoughts, remarks about the speech. And so it was never like, invasive and it, I didn’t, never felt like I was asking for too much. But I wanted their feedback I wanted their endorsement, and if they were kind enough to make it an introduction, I would always gladly take it.
RV (23:26):
Mm-Hmm.
JM (23:44):
Yeah. And I, lemme say this, I think a lot of folks focus on the referrals that they get and they’re not focused on the referrals that they give. So like, if you’re a speaker, for example, if you’re doing what we do, I wanna try to out-give, I wanna try to give more than I get now over time, that, that, that takes on a new shape and form. But in the beginning it was like, okay, if I spoke to an organization, I knew I could introduce them to other speakers or other thought leaders or other people in their industry that they needed to know. And so I was always trying to be really strategic about that as well. Like, Hey, you need to meet Rory, or you need to meet David Nurse, or, Hey, for your next event, you need to bring this person in. Maybe I can get ’em at a discount or maybe I could get ’em to do something for free. Here’s this event that I’m gonna be a part of. I’d love to take five of you with me. You know, I I just was trying to find unique ways to add value. But then that also helped on the referral side, right? Like people, people were more willing to give me referrals, Rory because they knew I was reciprocating and I was interested in adding value and, and giving referrals.
RV (24:47):
Yeah, I mean, to this day, to this very day, that is the number one way I get speaking engagements is because I’m introducing my friends to my past clients. And it’s probably, the ratio is probably like three to one, probably for every three I give, I get one back. But if you keep doing that and doing that, then like, it just keeps growing and growing. And what’s interest, what, what I’ve realized is it’s it that actually is my follow up strategy for keeping in touch with my past clients is introducing them to other speakers because they need a speaker every year, or multiple speakers. Most of ’em at this point, you know, a lot of times I’m one of like several speakers and going like, it gives me a reason to stay in touch with them and see how they’re doing and what’s going on with the business.
RV (25:38):
And like, a lot of times what happens is they go, Hey, it’s been four years since we’ve had you, we should bring you back. And it’s like, I’m not even trying to do that. I’m literally trying to go, how can I give to, you know, who, who, whoever our, our friends or up and comers and that, that kind of a thing. You know, and to your point, I think it’s important to speak in front of other speakers for that reason is like when, when a speaker sees you, sometimes they’re the, they’re the re the best marketing strategy you have. Like, you know, like I’ll sometimes I’ll speak at speakers events, you know, like, I just did this for John Maxwell and I was like, look, the requirement is you have to sit here and watch me speak. That’s all I want. I just, but I want you to sit here and I want you to have the experience as an attendee of what it’s like to be in the audience because I know that that always turns into more fruit for everybody. And you know, so amen. About, and that’s, you know, the, on the referral side of giving out, you know, giving more than you get, get, it’s like that applies for every business at every level. That’s right. Services. Like, that’s right.
RV (26:48):
The key to getting referrals is to give referrals. It’s that simple. And nobody does it. Nobody does it.
JM (26:53):
It’s crazy, isn’t it? Like I’ll say this because you’re a really, really well connected person, Rory because you’re a connecting person. Mm-Hmm. So like, if you’re listening and you’re like, man, I wanna be more connected, then start connecting. Because connecting people are connected people and connected people are connecting people. So like, if you understand just the art of adding value, you might be listening and going, well gosh, I’m not Rory, I don’t have high level introductions that I can make. Well, here’s what you can give, you can give your attention, you can give your time, you can give your empathy, you can give your counsel. Like, it doesn’t always have to be an introduction, but just get obsessed with giving and adding value to people. Overdelivering, somebody says, Hey, what do you look for in a new hire? Like if you’re gonna hire somebody in your organization, what do you look for? I would say I look for the person who’s hardwired to overdeliver. Mm-Hmm.
RV (28:15):
That’s so good. That’s such a wise, I I love that Jordan, that that connection between just be connecting because like yes, today I am introducing people to the biggest stages in the world. I mean the biggest speaking stages in the world, but it’s like all I’m doing I was is I’m doing the same thing I was doing when I was speaking at Perkins. I was like, Hey, I spoke at this gig at Perkins, like there’s this little book club that meets like, would you wanna speak there? It’s, it’s just the same habit but at a different scale and a magnitude, which is just the, you know, happens organically over time if you do that. I love that idea. If you just you’re a well connected person because you’re a connecting person. Alright buddy, I know we only have a few minutes. So you have the art of encouragement. You’re a fantastic encourager. You’ve encouraged me in and out of just this conversation alone,
JM (29:20):
I think encouragement for so long has been a topic that people either engage in or they don’t. So a leader will say something like, I’m an encourager or I’m just not much of an encourager. So I think it’s sad that we see it that way and we don’t see it as an art. I think it’s an art form. It’s an art form just like any other leadership skill. And so we wrote the book, the Art of Encouragement. There’s 10 Arts if you wanna truly encourage and recognize the people around you. I think it changes relationships. I think it’s a universal language that people understand. And I think it taps into our most basic social and relational psychological need, which is the need to be known, seen, and valued. And so my belief is that if we can get busy encouraging people in real and authentic ways, we can change relationships, change lives, and help people feel seen, valued, and understood. And so yeah, I’ve just been the beneficiary of some world-class encouragers and it was a book for me that was easy to write because it’s been such a huge part of my life. So that’s why we chose the topic.
RV (30:21):
Yeah, I remember Zig Ziglar used to say all the time, encouragement is the fuel on which hope runs. Which was basically to say, if you keep encouraging people, they will continue to have hope and they will keep going. If you stop encouraging people, they lose hope. And so they stop, you know, they stop pursuing. And it’s like, what, what blows my mind about encouragement is that it’s free and it’s unlimited. Right? Right. Like, you can give it, you can give it. And I think to take what you said about connecting the same thing applies to encouraging is like if you’re a great encourager, you will always be encouraged.
JM (31:00):
That’s it.
RV (31:02):
Yeah. And I think your life is evidence of that. Jordan and I, I watch, I watch What’s Happening to You and it excites me. ’cause I feel like I love it when I go, oh, there’s the good people are winning. Like, it’s still, you know, there, there’s a lot of places in the world where like, oh, you know, the, the best marketer is, you know, looks like they’re winning or the, you know, the richest person is winning. But it’s like, nah. Like ultimately it’s still the good guys still win. If you, if you do all the work and you do and you do the things, and I see that happening with you, that’s very convicting to me. And and I love what you’re doing, man. You are, you’re on the right path. I mean, it’s just like you can’t do all the right things, right? You can’t like do all the right things and have it not end up in a good place.
JM (31:46):
Hmm.
RV (31:48):
And so where do you want people to go? So Art of Encouragement is the book July coming out July 24th. So right now, July 24th, 2024. And where do you want people to go to get the book? Because you’ve got some bonuses and stuff that you’re giving away. Yeah,
JM (32:06):
Yeah, yeah. Go to the Art of encouragement book.com. You could register for a free webinar John Gordon Ryan Leak, David Nurse and Jess tro. We’d love to have you that webinar’s taking place on July 12th. There’s some other freebies and we’d love to hang out with you, get to know you better have you a part of our community. But or the book, we’d love for you to read it. We’d love for you to share it with a friend. Yeah, I think this is a universal language that the world understands. And to your point, Rory, it’s free to give our our listeners, I’ll, I’ll leave us with maybe this final question. John Maxwell asked this question one time. He said how do you know if somebody needs encouragement? Like, how are you to know that? And then he answered his own question and he said they, they have a pulse.
JM (32:54):
You know, like the world needs encouraged. I don’t care if you’re the most successful person on the planet or the least experienced person in your industry. You need to be encouraged. And I do think it’s fuel. And we’d love to help people with that. And so yeah, go to the go to the website Art of encourage book book.com. We’d love to have you for the book launch webinar on July 12th. Book drops July 24th, Rory, God bless you. Appreciate your friendship man, and all the help that you’ve offered. Let me say this. Your company is top-notch. You communicate at the highest level you follow through, you touch base, you connect. Like what you are building at Brand Builders is so significant and so special. We will work with you until the end of time because we just feel cared for, valued, seen, understood. And again, the fact that you’re having me on this podcast is just more evidence of the way that you care and the way that you show up for the people that you work with. So thank you, man, for your support and your friendship really means a lot.
RV (33:55):
Yeah, buddy. Well, it’s, it’s a pleasure. We, we started this company to find mission driven messengers that we could get behind to go. These are people that we want to teach, what we have, what we’ve learned to go help them, like make the world a better place. And, and, and you represent every part of that brother. So we wish you all the best. Thanks for being here and we’ll catch everybody next time on the influential Personal Brand podcast. Good luck, Jordan.
JM (34:20):
Thanks for having me, Rory. Be well. God bless.
Ep 504: Ridiculously Easy To Do Business With | David Avrin
AJV (00:01):
Hey everybody, and welcome to the Influential Personal Brand podcast. This is AJ Vaden here, one of your co-hosts. And today is Uber. Uber, super duper special because I get to interview a very good close personal friend. In fact, we’ve been online together for already 17 minutes, and I just finally hit record.
DA (00:24):
It’s time for others to join in this conversation just a little bit
AJV (00:28):
AJV (01:22):
It’s why books are so important. It’s like you can’t do for yourself what others you can do in community. And that’s what you did for Rory. And Rory still tells everyone that you’re his mentor for it’s a lifelong mentor. But you’re a close personal friend. I think you’re just so wicked talented. You’re the best dad, awesome husband. So anyone who is listening, I would just encourage you, this is kind of one of those episodes that you just wanna stick around for because we’re gonna be talking about what it’s like to become a highly paid professional speaker. What it’s like to write several books and more importantly of what his new book is about is how do you become ridiculously easy to do business with? And it doesn’t matter who you are, where you’re at in your journey, what your business is, we all should want to become ridiculously easy to do business with.
AJV (02:11):
So this is an episode for you, right? Sometimes I go, here’s what it’s for. Here’s what it’s not for, but today it’s for you. It’s for all of you. So with that, let me give you a little bit of the formal accolades and then we’ll jump right in. All right. Here’s what you need to know about Dave Rin. He’s one of the most in demand customer experience speakers out there. He also does tons of consultings for companies all around the world. He is A CSP, which is a certified speaking professional for the National Speakers Association. He’s a global speaking fellow. He has spoken in 24 countries around the world, and, you know, you have a lot of years left. So I’m, I’m thinking that you could probably hit 50, right? So I think you should be going for 50 countries at minimum. His insights have been shared all across all media, all around the world. And at this point, what, how many, is this your fifth, sixth book?
DA (03:06):
This is my seventh book altogether. My seventh book, sixth business book. I also wrote a sappy Dad book in there. But yeah, my sixth business book,
AJV (03:15):
Y’all,
DA (03:17):
Y’all
AJV (03:18):
Such a lifelong. And here’s what I would say. It’s like, I think this is like one of the, those great conversations where there’s just a, a firsthand wealth of knowledge, right? Like the co the day’s conversation isn’t gonna be about things that you pulled from other places or things that you learned. It’s what you do. It’s what you live. It’s, it’s how you’ve done this. And that’s kind of where I wanna start. As you might be somewhat newer to some of the people in our audience, and we have a lot of people in our audience who aspire to write a book one day Sure. And speak on stages one day. So what I would love for you to share with everyone is, how’d you get into this? How long have you been doing it? And what should that aspiring speaker or aspiring author know? What do they need to know?
DA (04:02):
Sure. Well, I, I think first I would be remiss if I didn’t acknowledge the, the, the lovely introduction and the acknowledgement, you know, it was, or in my careers. I, I look back at, at you and, and Rory and the, the tremendous work and the, and the pride I have welling, welling up inside me. I, I feel very paternal, but, but very proud. I, when I met early or met Rory, he was 19 years old and in incredible potential. And I, I love that line that says, for those of us who have enjoyed a measure of success, it’s important that we send the elevator back down and, and, and to help up. And I watch what you do now, and both of you and the audience and the, and the people and the brands that you’ve built, and the careers that you’ve bolstered is phenomenal.
DA (04:44):
I mean, my, my background and everybody has a background, right? Everybody starts somewhere. And, and I was in marketing and public relations for many, many years. I helped organizations craft the words they use to better describe what they do. That was the early part of my career. I, I worked for some, some major brands and, and was on staff. I was the PR director of Children’s Hospital in Denver, Colorado in my early twenties. And I had great success in generating publicity and coverage and on Good Morning America and Oprah and today’s show and all the magazines. But the world has changed in a significant way. And what was then back trying to get on magazines on our radio shows. Today, of course, it’s blogs and podcasts and different ways for us to communicate. But I, I made a transition about, about 25 years ago as I realized that that you can actually get paid to teach what you know.
DA (05:37):
And so after having a, a reasonable career in this work, I, I was invited to speak at an organization and, and it was just, it was to the core who I was. ’cause I think I’m, I’m a teacher at, at the core. And, and it just grew from there. So now we’re in my 25th year. I speak for a living full time, and I leverage that for consulting. And we have a, a variety of others, you know, assessments and, and, and that as well. But, but to the core, it’s, it’s, I I love sharing from the, from the front of the room. As you had mentioned, this is my, my sixth book. And I think all of that’s important because it’s important to stay relevant. It’s important to stay current. And we look back at what we knew 10 years ago and, and we better know something different today if we’re teaching the same things and sharing the same information and strategies that we did 10 years ago.
DA (06:28):
It’s antiquated how we buy, how we connect, how we learn and pay, and, and, and share is all different. So it’s exciting for me because there’s always something to, to learn. There’s always some new strategies and tactics to share. And I’m fortunate, actually, it’s been 26 countries now that I, that I’ve spoken in around the, around the world. In, in November I’m in, oh boy, here’s some geographic name dropping. I’m really fortunate ’cause I gotta bring my lovely wife with me. We’re, we’re speaking in London, Barcelona, Amsterdam, Malta Vienna and Gdansk. I love that. So it’s just, it’s a tremendous, it’s a tremendous time of life.
AJV (07:07):
I love that. And you know, one of the things you said that I want you to circle back on, ’cause I remember my early days, and this was Lord, 18 years ago when I was, you know, joined the Nationals of Speakers Association, my early twenties, and was going to all these sessions, learning from people who’d been in the business for 10, 15, 20, 25 years. And I remember sitting in this one particular session, and a question was asked, like, you know, how do you book speaking gigs? Like, how, how do you get on these stages? Like, I want to do that. And I remember one of the speakers was like, well, you know, you just need to answer the phone when it rings. Oh,
DA (07:43):
Wouldn’t that be nice?
AJV (07:45):
Why did you make the phone ring?
DA (07:48):
Oh, yesterday year,
AJV (07:49):
DA (08:10):
Well, you know, I, I, let me, let me start by saying, here’s what many of us have learned. Speaking is not a business. It’s not getting the gig is the business speaking’s the performance. We love to do that. I, I we talk to countless people who, who have, is something burning in their heart, this passion I wanna share. I want to touch lives. Nobody’s hiring speakers because you want to touch lives. The, the nobody’s hiring speakers because you want a cathartic experience and exercise your demons or your therapy on stage. I’m actually fortunate that I’m on the main stage at, for the National Speakers Association this year in my session, my very first slide is somebody putting on a pair of blue rubber gloves. And I’m gonna say, hang on friends, this is gonna be uncomfortable. You’re gonna feel a little pressure. And there’s just a lot of nonsense in this business.
DA (08:57):
And I love sharing what it really takes. And I’ll talk about sort of the marketing aspect of it. But one of the interesting things is we have a very interesting profession because arguably, it’s the only profession where most people get into this business because they’re encouraged by somebody who has no idea what it really is. Oh my God, that story about you and surviving cancer, when you climb that mountain and you fell into that crevasse and you say, you should be a professional speaker, I love the way you tell stories. You could touch people’s lives. And I wanna say, I think you should just feed your family. Now, if you can use that story and leverage it to help companies increase their sales and guard against disruption and future proof their engagement or motivate their people, that’s legitimate as well. Then there’s something there.
DA (09:39):
But the reality is, the business of speaking is, is marketing. I, I, I hear people say, listen, I took a, I took a three day bootcamp on hand gestures, and I can’t get the phone to ring. And I’m like, pick up the phone. You know,
DA (10:21):
It’s not who you know, it’s who Knows You had come out. And I was 20 years ago, and I was doing very well, and I was talking about my speaking business. And I was sitting around with some colleagues and our, our mutual friend, Dave Horse Hager I talked about my business and he said, dude, you don’t have a business. And I looked at him, I said, what are you talking about? I said, this is my best year ever. He said, no, no, no. You have gigs. You don’t have a business. And I said, what’s the difference? He says, what, how much are you gonna make next year? I said, I have no idea. I said, of course you don’t because you have no process. How are you finding contacts and turning ’em into leads? Are you turning leads into prospects? How are you leveraging and converting those prospects into paying clients and, and beating out other speakers for that, for that particular slot? He says, you are so headed for a fall.
DA (11:07):
He says, I’ve seen this before. I’ve seen speakers make seven figures and they can’t pay their mortgage two years ago because what they were talking about was hot. He says, you need to put a business behind it. And so that’s what we did. And I went home that night and I didn’t sleep. And I went home and I talked to my wife at the end of the conference and we talked about how do we do this? And how do we find a way to hire staff and create systems and process. And to be clear, it’s not an automated system. I don’t automate anything. Yeah, I could, I could hit one click and reach 50,000 prospects to say, Hey, hire David as a speaker, and 99.9% will never be opened. So we have gotten very good at creating a process. We, we find ways, we find organizations that hold meetings.
DA (11:51):
We look ’em up, we find out who they had for LA last year, when their next meeting is. We know when to pitch. And we try and make it very simple. We know that the, the one behavior that is predictive of our success is if I can get prospects, people who hold meetings to watch my preview video, if I, it’s pretty good. And if they watch that, I have a chance. If they don’t, they don’t. So I don’t wanna go too deep into it. It there, but, but you’re right. It’s a business. It’s a business. And it’s a business that I’m, I’m up at 5:00 AM I go to the gym. I try and be at my desk no later than six 30 or seven. ’cause I wanna get a little bit of work. And because I have a lot of clients internationally. And so, you know, it, it’s a business. And I think the, probably the most elusive thing in the speaking business is longevity, because most speakers starve. We, we like to call new speakers, ignorance on fire. They, they’re so passionate that, and I’m, I’m, I’m on a mission to help speakers feed their families so they can do this for a long time.
AJV (12:51):
You know what I love about this? And, and I kind of knew what you were gonna say, which is why I asked it. But I think it’s such an important message for everyone to hear, because what people love is creating content, sharing their content,
DA (13:05):
Performing. Yeah. Performing.
AJV (13:06):
It’s great. But what you have to become amazing at is the sales, the marketing. Right? Absolutely. I, we had this conversation not too long ago at one of our events, and someone said, well, you know, I’m, I’m running out of, you know, you know, kind of running outta rope before I’m gonna have to go back and get a full-time job. And my question is, well, how many sales calls are you making every day? And they kind of looked at me and I was like, every week. And they kinda looked at me and they’re like, what do you mean by sales calls? And I was like, okay, wow. We need to, we need to talk about actually how you get booked on stages. Yeah. Yeah. And that seems that you’re calling people, you’re emailing people, you’re doing outreach. This is sales.
DA (13:54):
So much of the conversation is around the passion and the story and, and stepping into your truth and, and or stepping into your power and speaking your truth. It’s nonsense. It’s nonsense. And, and people, that, that’s really hurtful for people. I don’t mean it to be because it’s coming from a good place. People are telling other people, speakers are telling other people their friends and family, oh my God, you have this, you’re so good at telling stories. If you have passion in your heart, if you have a drive, you can be a No. It’s, I mean, that’s, that’s the foundation of it. I mean, you don’t have to be great to make it as, you don’t have to be great. You have to be good. Mm-Hmm. Your content has to be great, but you have to have sales and marketing. And, and I don’t know why that’s scary for people.
DA (14:37):
I, I think some people are, are reluctant to be, seem overly self-promotional. But the reality is you will touch very few lives. You’ll make a very small impact if you don’t get booked. Yeah. And think of it like any other, other business. And you and Rory have been teaching this for years. People don’t know who they don’t know. Hmm. And I’m not, I’m not famous. I’m good at what I do. There’s a lot of people who are good at what they’re, I’m not on Shark Tank. Right. I don’t have that kind of a platform. So we hustle and we work and we work and and half of the, the presentations, the gigs that I get are from organizations who had no idea who I was until we reached out to them.
AJV (15:16):
Perhaps. I think everyone needs to pause and let that sink in. It’s like, if you think some bureau is gonna fill up your calendar, or you think some agent’s gonna show up on your door and magically get you booked or any of that, the truth is you’re the agent,
DA (15:32):
Well, you’re your sales director. Yeah. That’s the other partner as well, is even when I got staff, and this is sort of the, the, the, the quintessential E-Myth, right? It’s Michael Gerber. That, that we feel like as long as suddenly we have help. So we kind of push it to them like, good, finally you go do it. You can’t abdicate, right? We, we, we think that, that we’re delegating. We’re not, we’re abdicating. You go do it. It doesn’t work that way. You have to be the sales director of your own organization until you get big enough to actually hire a sales director. But if you’re big enough to be able to, to have an assistant I I, I love that line. I’m trying to think who said it that if you aren’t, if you don’t have an assistant, you are your assistant, right?
DA (16:11):
And so, but, but we also have a responsibility. We can’t bring on that second person until we are confident that we can cover their salary for at least a year. Right? ’cause it takes time, but it’s time, it’s process. But here’s the best part, aj, it’s worth it. It’s worth it because you gotta feed your family while you get to do what you maybe were, were born to do. But, but ultimately it has to be in the service of others. It has to be to help them do what they do. They’re not paying you 10, $15,000 for you to have a cathartic experience and bring joy to people’s lives. Right. and so, and, and, and because I’ve had a measure of success, and I’ve done this for a long time, I’m, I’m approached by a lot of people who want to tell me their story. Right? Here’s what I’ve done. Here’s what I want to do. You know, I survive cancer. I I won this Olympic medal. And, and listen, I’m not mocking ’cause I haven’t done any of those things. But the, your business is not about your story. It’s about how do you leverage your story in the service of others. And, and it has to be unique enough. So there’s a lot to go into, but yeah. Sales and marketing, sales and market, I love that.
AJV (17:18):
How do you think books play into this meeting? Very
DA (17:23):
Important.
AJV (17:24):
So, you know, clearly you think so because every time I talk to you, there’s a new book coming out and maybe we just need to talk more
DA (18:16):
Absolutely.
AJV (18:17):
And, you know, digest and actually act on. But in terms of the power of a book and how it can help you build your business. Yeah. Like how, how, how would you say that all integrates?
DA (18:29):
Well, it, it, it doesn’t in a big way. And I’m gonna, and I’m gonna challenge one small thing that you said. First of all, I, I write books not because it’s time for another book. It’s, it’s relevance, it’s gravitas, right? It’s that credibility that they’re the person that wrote that book. But I’m also very cognizant that a lot of people aren’t gonna read it. Larry Wingett is, is is a little cynical about it. He says, I sell souvenirs in the back of the room,
DA (19:09):
Or take the stairs or atomic habits. So I look like a big deal. I hope people read my books. I put a lot into it. But, but even if they don’t, here’s, here’s the value. And it’s a tremendous value. It’s credibility. They’re the ones who wrote X or Y. We find that in our marketing and in our sales processes, we’re introducing people to me as a speaker and a, a good resource for their next conference. Just the fact that I have a book coming out there in peaks their interest, which is really interesting that it’s just as valuable in the lead up phase as it is to when you publish it. And of course, the time afterwards because you don’t want it to be an event. You want it to be a process and a marathon. But books are really important to legitimize that.
DA (19:54):
Why are we turning to this person for consulting or speaking another ’cause they’re the ones who wrote blank, right? Most people’s first book tends to be just a compilation of blogs and articles that they’ve written. If like, I’ve written all of this stuff, let’s put it all together in some reasonably linear fashion, but it doesn’t really work. And I’ll freely admit, that was my first book. It was just, here’s a compilation of all my writings. But I try and be much more intentional now. Everybody comes up with a title they think is the, the Cure for Cancer that tastes like chocolate. And then we learn. I learned, I learned from Rory, I learned from Rory when, when he learned the lesson and realized that and what he teaches and, and I took this to heart, was that title has to be something aspirational.
DA (20:40):
Like I want that. And I didn’t learn my lesson. I had a book I that came out during Covid called The Morning Huddle, which was the physical manifestation of a video series that I had created. And it’s all these great conversations for your morning huddle. Nobody sits around and says, I need the morning huddle. Right? I don’t I need, but do they need to know how to be ridiculously easy to work with? Do they or to to do business with? Do they need to know why customers leave? My book, why Customers Leave and How to Win Them Back is in six languages now because it’s perfectly aligned with Rory’s lesson about that’s aspirational. I want that. I wanna know that. And so there’s a whole process. I’m actually holding a, a, a retreat to help people write their first book.
DA (21:24):
And there’s so many people, you know, people come up to you all the time saying, how do you do that? God, I wish I could write away. Well, you can. But I think there’s also a, a, a fallacy that writers enjoy writing. I I don’t, I think I’m a good writer. It’s just, it’s agony for me, but I’m disciplined. I do it because I need to feed my family. I’ve got five colleges. I’m paying for five colleges and, and four employees. And so I work, but I, there’s a famous line, A woman was asked, famous author, I can’t remember her name. She was asked if she, she says, they were asked her, do you enjoy writing? And I loved her answer. She says, I love to have written
DA (22:18):
Like, I, I did this. Like, I, I wrote a book and, and you’ve seen it on the screen and, but now you can touch it and hold it. It’s, it’s powerful. It’s really powerful. And, and it’s something that many millions of people talk about and a much smaller fraction actually do it. So it’s incredibly important. It’s a legacy thing, depending on what it is you wanna write. It’s a galvanization of the content and the knowledge that you’ve learned over the years that you can, you can put down on paper and is there for, for history. It’s an accomplishment. But for a business, it’s credibility. It ab it absolutely helps. They don’t have to buy your book. They don’t have to read your book. But the fact that you wrote it and take some time and write a good book, don’t have ai, write it for you. Write your book. It’s credibility. And that’s really important. It, it drives, it drives your fee structure. It drives your visibility. Very, very important.
AJV (23:15):
Yeah. You know, one of the things that we talk about all the time is you can actually look at the trajectory of any speaker’s kind of financial path in terms of their fees and literally go no book, book bestselling book, right? A Wall Street Journal, bestselling book, New York Times bestselling book. And it’s like, you can literally watch, you know, the, the escalation percent when it comes to fee structure with the enhancement of that credibility. And so, so I think that’s just a really important conversation also leading up to this new book that you have released, which I think it’s a killer title, and I think everyone wants that. So let’s talk a little bit about this new book, ridiculously easy to do business with. And I think we would all like to know how do we become that, right? So what, what’s, what’s the book about?
DA (24:10):
Sure. the book is about, I mean, at the, at the core, it’s customer experience. I spent the early part of my career as a speaker and a consultant, probably the first 15 years, talking about marketing and branding. How do we better describe what we do? How do, how do we choose and craft those words? But I saw a significant change happening in the marketplace. And this was of course, with the advent of social media and social proof and, and mobile devices and everything else. And it became very clear that what we say about ourselves while not unimportant, is far less impactful today than what other people say about us. And so that was the research that went into my book, why Customers Leave. And we’re in a time, a really remarkable time. It’s a great time to be a customer or a client.
DA (24:54):
The, the conveniences are, are off the charts. It’s a tough time to be in business. And so, as I have spoken, because I I’m also a former Vistage chair, I, I led CEO Roundtable groups for years, and I spoke, I’ve spoken to 539 CEO Roundtable groups over the last 15 years. And as I would go around the table, I say, what’s your competitive advantage? Why you, what’s the secret sauce? It’s always some version of the same answer. It’s our superior quality, commitment, caring, trust. It’s about our people. Here’s what the research shows. People are prioritizing. Speed. Customers are prioritizing speed, speed of access, speed of answers, speed of of resolution, speed of delivery simplicity of process, accommodation for unique circumstances. Don’t be rigid. And of course, convenience in many ways. Our, our colleague Sally Hogshead talks about that different is better than better.
DA (25:49):
And I would submit that convenient is better than better. ’cause We’re in a time of pervasive quality. Everybody’s good, everybody’s good. So where are the real opportunities for, for distinction, for standing apart and standing and standing out. And that’s what drove the book ridiculously easy to do business with. It’s about reducing friction at every point possible in the process. If you have a business process an interaction, a purchasing process, or ordering for your clients that was designed 20 year, 10 years ago, it’s already outdated because we’re used to being able to buy with one click. And, and we can lament the loss of iconic brands. You know, we can lament the loss of, of Bed Bath and Beyond, or Toys Are Us. I guarantee you, nobody’s struggling to find toys. Nobody’s struggling to find toys. Why did they go? They, because we have other better options, better by some measure.
DA (26:43):
It’s more convenient, it’s more prevalent, whatever that might be. And so in the book, I I, I came up with 28 different ways to to be ridiculously easy. And, and I, on our business, I was on a podcast and somebody was asking me how, why is it that business just doesn’t get it? And I said, I think they get it. Of course they get it. It’s very smart, very good people running businesses. But I think there’s a grand experiment going on, which is, how much can we cut? How much can we push to the consumers? How much self-checkout before it’s that law of diminishing return. And they say, this has gotten so frustrated that frustrating, that now we’re gonna go somewhere else and we’re still figuring out what that is. There, young people I, I heard that somebody said, for the first time ever, we’re serving five generations at the same time.
DA (27:30):
And I was, and young people want to buy very different than older people, and we have to find ways of serving all of them. Those points of frustration, some of ’em are pretty obvious about being ridiculously easy to reach or to resolve issues. But I even cover chapters. You need to be ridiculously easy to see. Most marketing collateral, material, business cards, and others are designed by people in their twenties and thirties. 65% of all is by people over 50. I can’t see any of that.
DA (28:23):
And my job is to bring an external perspective of saying, here’s what’s frustrating for your customers. And why is that important? Because we have a bullhorn that reaches around the world now. We have Yelp and TripAdvisor and Rotten Tomatoes and, and Glassdoor. Everybody’s good today because if you weren’t, you would be outed very, very quickly. And so in the book, ridiculously easy to do business with, it’s sort of a here’s an outside perspective on all of your systems and processes, and here’s how your customers really feel about it. And it’s also a way to sort of future proof your engagement and say, how do you think business? How do you think your customers want to do business with you? Or will wanna do business with you not 10 years from now, two years from now? What do we need to start doing now to, to make those tweaks and adjustments?
DA (29:09):
We’re all competing against Amazon and Uber in terms of simplicity of process. And I think there’s a lot of lessons to be learned. I’ve been very gratified. We’ve just been out as of the recording of this, this podcast. We’ve just been out for a couple of weeks. We went to number one very, very quickly in the consumer relations category. I think we were number two in, in entrepreneurialism or something else. And of course that’s Amazon. I mean, let’s talk legitimate. The goal is Wall Street Journal or New York Times or others as well. But it’s a process. And it’s for anyone in business to be not just competent, not just capable, but preferable. And that’s the key that we don’t talk.
AJV (29:49):
You said this and I’m curious to know in the book, like what are some of the biggest frustrations that customers have with companies? Like what are they?
DA (30:00):
Yeah. Well, the, some of the frustrations are obvious ones, which is just when we’re literally yelling into the phone. Real person, real person agent, I think you said no. Oh, right. You know, and, and there’s, I unders I’m not naive. I understand that AI and chatbots, and it’s, it’s all part of where we are and it’s all part of where we’re going. But when they make it so difficult to get an off ramp to a real person when you need one I’m, I think I’m the only person on the planet. I’ve never had a a question that’s frequently asked apparently, because I can never find my issue. And one of the things I talk about is, is there’s a strategy, is that if you, if you are really frustrated and you can’t get through, whether you’re typing in a chat bot or you’re on the phone, just start shouting profanity into the phone and, and AI recognizes that it’s frustrat and they’ll transfer you to a real person or, or just yell, know, cancel membership.
DA (30:54):
And then you get to, and, and people laugh and, and it’s true. It’s unfortunate. Why, why do we have to yell profanity, right? In order to talk to get mad to get attention. Why do we have to get to that point? And then here’s the thing. ’cause I have a real heart for customer, customer service agents. What a tough job. But now organizations are, are, are frustrating their customers to the point where by the time we talk to a real person, they’re being inundated and abused all day long. I think it’s incredibly unfair that they do that to, to those representatives. What else? It, it’s, it’s an inflexibility that it, that shouldn’t be. Somebody was asking like, how could this possibly be getting worse if we’ve been talking about customer service or experience, whatever for 50 years, how could it be getting worse?
DA (31:41):
And it is, and here’s why is because we’re getting more rigid. We’re trying so hard in our companies to have some level of predictability in the process. Here’s how they reach out or learn about us and, and, and inquire and buy and negotiate and pay and deliver and, and it works, right? ’cause And if we can have greater level of predictability of that process, we can predict revenue and cash flow, right? And we can plan for that. We can hire for that. The problem is, your customers haven’t read your employee manual. They don’t know how they’re supposed to buy from you. They just know how they want to. But that’s changing. So we get rigid and we say no to stupid things. You know, I was checking out of a hotel and they’re like, sorry, we’re not doing any late checkouts. I’m like, I can’t get out.
DA (32:26):
I’m going to a And they say, yeah, we’re gonna charge you for a second day if you can’t be open. I’m like, okay, then I just won’t check out of the room. There we go. I just pay for another. And it’s, it was an easy yes, but the manager said, no, they checkouts today. Right? And the pushback I get for this kind of flexibility, I think is really important. I get this pushback and they say, well, if we do it for you or if we do it for him, we to do it for everyone. And my answer is, no, you don’t. It’s your business. They, it, it’s such a crutch. Well, if we do it for you, we have to do it for everyone. You do whatever your works for your customers. Most won’t need the special accommodations. And so when I talk about being ridiculously easy, like I have clients all over the world.
DA (33:05):
I’ve got clients in Mumbai and Singapore and Johannesburg. When I have a call with a client, a Zoom call, I’m the one talking at two o’clock in the morning or three o’clock every time. It’s never them because I am ridiculously easy to do business with them because my competitors, my colleagues, our friends, they’re phenomenal. I have, we are, we have such great colleagues who are so good at what they do. What’s my competitive advantage? Yeah. I’m gonna knock it out of the park on stage, but I’m also not gonna make you search for a phone number. I’m not gonna make you fill out a contact form in order to reach a real person. I, I, I thank speakers all the time, and I’ve spoken at nine of the international associations. I said, I want to thank you all for putting contact forms instead of emails on your website because you put my kids through college because I’m, I’ve already sent over a a contract by the time they’ve responded to your, your, your contact form.
DA (34:03):
I, I, and, and to be fair, I’ve got multiple small business, they all have contact forms and I have cell phone numbers for every member of my team. We have email addresses. I’m ridiculously easy to get in touch with. I mean, there’s, there’s some maddening things, AJ of, of companies that make it difficult to reach you. I mean, are are you that good that your customers are gonna put up with that? And, and people say, well, you don’t have life balance if you’re, I’m not talking to three o’clock in the morning every day, but this feeds my family. Hmm. And my, my clients ask, and the answer is yes. What’s the question? Hmm. Right, because
AJV (34:39):
That’s good. I literally, yesterday as you’re talking, I’m like, this would, like, this literally happened to me yesterday. I signed up for this health portal and I won’t share their name, but it’s like this supposedly amazing thing that was referred by a very good friend, and you do all this blood work and then it’s kind of putting the patient back in control of all of your panels. Yeah. So doctors don’t own it. And it was like a really cool concept. So I’ve been trying to schedule my second round of blood work, right? There’s no email address, there’s no phone number. The chat bot keeps saying, can’t accept request right now. So I’m like, I can’t chat with you. I can’t call you, I can’t email you and it won’t let me schedule my appointment and it has to be in a certain period of time, which now has expired. Now I have to wait 30 more days to use what I’ve paid for. And it was like, I to the point of like, if I can’t use it, I want a refund. I can’t talk to anyone to even request it. Right? And so it’s, but
DA (35:35):
That, but that’s the other thing. That’s the other thing thing. And you talk about where the frustrations are about organizations that make it ridiculously easy to cancel. Well, they do that on purpose. I think it’s slimy. Or, or here’s the other one is they they give you a free trial, but it’s not a free trial. Right? Sign up for a free trial. What’s the requirement? You have to give ’em your credit card information. Right? And then we have a, that that wall comes up that, that trepidation. It’s the number one reason for abandoned shopping carts in membership trials is a requirement for financial information. So I go through all of that. Yeah. But it’s one of those, it’s like, who designed this process? And that’s the difference between product centric and customer centric. That product centric is, we’re very good at what we do, and so let’s deliver that and sell as many as we can and create market share. Nothing wrong with that. Right. I love that
AJV (36:19):
Too. One of the things that I love, like we’ve had this conversation so often, and like, one of the things that we’re really big advocates of, and I love, like there’s an entire book about this is give it all away for free. In fact, give it away. Give everything away to the point where your customer says, man, I feel like I’ve gotten so much value from you, I need to pay you. And that’s so counterculture, right? It’s, and we brought that up and somebody said, well, aren’t you afraid that people are just take advantage of you? And I’m like, no, I’m not at all. Because they could go get this information for free at tons of places, right? They’re not paying for the information at that point. They’re going, I want it from you because that’s who I’ve begun to trust. That’s who I’m gonna, I, that’s who I like.
AJV (37:08):
Now, this is who I have a relationship with. It’s like the information is out there. Buy a book, listen to a podcast, read a blog, watch YouTube, you know, watch any of the social media platforms. It’s like whatever it is you wanna know, you can go find it. You are not paying for information at this point. You’re paying for experience, relationship, trust, organization, application, execution. You’re paying for those things. So don’t be, don’t be afraid to give things away so that people understand like, there’s real value here. I want to give you my money, not I have to.
DA (37:40):
You know, I think for many of us, we’ve come to realize sometime back, the biggest competitor out there is free, right? I, I think when, when newspapers stopped running the presses and they thought, we’re gonna just think about how much money we’re gonna save and we’ll have everybody use subscription. I’m reading an article online and all of a sudden I get stopped and something pops up that I have to subscribe to the New York Times to read the rest of the article. I don’t because free is pervasive. But, but I like what you said, but I think it goes even further. And this is where you have to accept the, the compliments and realize that some people, when you’ve built a really strong personal brand, when you are known for the wisdom and the content and the value that you provide, there’s a certain category of people that want to touch the robe.
DA (38:24):
They wanna be there because it’s you. They want to, to pay more and get a deeper access to you and information because it’s you. And, and you’ve earned that. And you have to earn that, which is the other part. You can be well known and have a great personal brand, but if it’s not a brand of value and that people aspire to be you to some extent there are people who will come to that workshop to learn from you. There’s things that we can learn almost anything online. You can go to YouTube and you can learn how to use YouTube, right? But when you have built that strong service oriented, high content personal brand, there’s a category of people that will only pay that money and do more than what they could do free because they want to touch the robe. And that’s something that, that you build and something to be proud of, and it’s something to leverage.
AJV (39:17):
Hmm. So if you were going to, you know, kind of summarize some of the highlights of the book and go, all right, everyone who’s listening, clearly we don’t have time to talk about all 28 things, but if there were two or three things that you’re like, hands down, yeah, you love me doing this to be ridiculously easy to ba do business with, what are some of those things?
DA (39:38):
I, and lemme go a little bit broader and which is the importance of, of sort of the concept. I was about to keynote a conference and the, the CEO was on before I was there was a huge organization. There was probably 800 people in the audience. And the CEO was doing the big rah rah speech. And at the very end, he said, and, and remember, we’re gonna win on quality. At the end of the day, it’s about quality. And everybody cheered and went crazy. And I thought to myself, I could not disagree more. At the end of the day, it’s not about quality. It’s not, everybody’s good. Everybody’s got quality at the beginning of the day. It’s about quality. Quality is the entry
AJV (40:13):
Requirement for entry.
DA (40:14):
Quality gives you permission to do business in the marketplace. You better be good or the marketplace will figure it out. But at the end of the day, it’s about competitive advantage. It’s not what do you do? Well, what do you do better than others who do it well? And so back to the book, I I laid out 28 short chapters of here’s all the things that you can do to gain a competitive advantage. Recognize that your competitors are all good. And here’s the worst thing about competitors, and nobody says this out loud. Most of those competitors are very, very nice people. They’re, they’re, they’re not our our enemies. They’re, they’re our, our our colleagues in arms. They’re all, we’re all trying to feed our families. And, and if you, if you believe that you’re so good that, that everybody has to discover you and they’re gonna reject everybody else.
DA (41:00):
I heard somebody saying that, that they what makes us different is we actually do what we say we’re gonna do. There you go. And I look at ’em, I said, you actually believe that. Don’t you? Do you actually believe that your competitors are consistently underperforming and that they have yet they have, but to discover you, everybody’s good. You need a competitive advantage. And the competitive advantage is eliminate friction. Don’t, don’t make your customers do business the way you want them to do if they want it to do differently. So it’s taking a step back. It’s understanding what customer centricity really means. And all of this, of course, profitably but we’re in a very competitive environment. I think the theme of the book and the examples are all about, here’s how you do it, here’s why. It’s, it’s a challenge for us. And here’s, here’s a different way.
DA (41:47):
And each one, each chapter has stories and examples and marketplace examples and research to bolster the points. But it’s very, very, I mean, even the, the tagline says it’s a practical guide to giving customers what they want, how and when they want it. And it’s an ongoing process, and it’s of, of reexamination. And it’s also my mantra and my message as I, as I travel the country and travel around the world my presentations are, there’s a lot of humor. It’s very entertaining. But I use that strategically to temper a tough message about what it takes to compete and win today. And whether you’re in small business, whether you’re building your brand, whether you aspire to be a speaker or consultant, it’s a business and you treat it like a business.
AJV (42:32):
Hmm. So what would you say if I were to ask you, when you say, sure, you know, this cocom competitive advantage, and that’s a part of what you’ve gotta figure out, like what is, as a speaker and an author, what is your competitive advantage?
DA (42:46):
My competitive advantage is, is a, I’m always relevant. And I, and I am committed to delivering it, knocking outta the park on the, on the stage every time that I think is the entry fee. I I am, I’m really good at what I do, as others are as well. My competitive advantage is I never stop marketing. I never stop selling. Through covid, through all of that as well, I did 87 virtual presentations on a webcam in my home studio because I don’t, I don’t, I don’t have a plan b hmm. And I love what I do, but I don’t get to do it if I don’t have clients to do it for. And so my competitive advantage is that I will outmarket. When we have somebody, we have a, a potential hit, I do a, a BombBomb video message, and I talk to ’em, hi, it’s David Verin, thanks for this. Here’s what we, I can’t wait to work with you. Here’s all the books that I’ve written, and we send ’em a book and here’s what we do on our first email. And here’s what we do on our second email. If they don’t respond, here’s how we put ’em back in the system. We don’t automate anything. My competitive advantage is we are relentless and we are diligent, and we are strategic, and we are ridiculously easy to do business with.
AJV (44:01):
I mean, honestly, see a great
DA (44:03):
Way to wrap that up.
AJV (44:04):
What competitive and competitive advantage should be. I always do outreach, right? It’s
DA (44:09):
Always that. There’s, there’s, that’s, that’s a good way of synopsis, synopsis, outreach never stops. I’m not famous. I’m good at what I do. The people who I do business with love me. My friends and family love me. You guys love me, I love you guys. But there’s a huge portion of the population who has no idea who, who, who I am and that I exist. I talk to people. If you’re in a, in an auditorium or a conference center and you’re speaking to 600 people, there’s 4.3 million people within a a 60 mile radius who have no idea you’re there. Yeah. So how do we leverage proximity? How do we leverage? So yeah, outreach is incredibly important. It’s probably the most important thing for my longevity.
AJV (44:52):
I love that. And I think for everyone who’s listening, if you would just take a minute or five or 10, whatever you got and ask yourself like, what is my competitive advantage? And it’s not that I care a lot, and it’s not that I have a superior product. It’s not that it’s a high quality product or whatever else. It’s like, what is your competitive advantage? And I think also asking yourself the question, which hopefully is similar, but what makes it ridiculously easy to do business with me
DA (45:24):
Or ridiculously easy to choose you, right? That, that’s a whole chapter in the book as well. It’s not even just how you do business. Make it ridiculously to easy to choose you over your competitors. And to do that, you need to be really clear what others are doing. We never denigrate them. We never criticize competitors. I love com. I love complimenting competitors. They’re phenomenal. But this is what I do. They do this and this and this and this. They’re really great. But this is, but I specialize in this, but well, that’s what I need. I I think it’s a better choice. So that market analysis is important. We could talk all day, but I know you have time constraints.
AJV (46:02):
I know this is so good though. I love it. And y’all, I would highly encourage for you to go pick up the book. I already have the book. It’s on my summer read list. And I’m even more intrigued now to go, what are these, you know, 28 things? And and now I’m like, well, I need my team to know what these 28 things are. And I love that what you said too, it’s like you have to identify the friction points, right? And that just means all of us have to take a step back as a consumer. And I, that would be like a, a great, I think just even for me, I’m just going like, man, I wonder when the last time I, like, I clicked through our website, how easy is it to get in touch with me? And if I wondered if I, like with an anonymous email hit our customer care at email, how quickly people would respond. And it’s like, I’m so curious now to go through our own systems and process.
DA (46:52):
You could shop yourself. Yeah, that’s a great idea. Where
AJV (46:54):
Are our friction points as a consumer? And as a, an entrepreneur business owner you should know those, right? And so ask yourself, when’s the last time that I actually went through my own processes the own systems with our team to go, where is it hard? Where is there friction? And how can I make it easier? And I love that. ’cause I think what you said earlier, and I wanna kind of like wrap it with this, is speed is really becoming an increasingly important part of why people do business with you
DA (47:25):
Very much. Jay Bair did some groundbreaking breaking research on that recently as well. Great colleagues, Jay Bear and Shep Hyken and Roger Dooley wrote a book called Friction that changed my life. I, I, I am so annoyed looking at the world now because he’s made me hyper aware of things I hadn’t even thought of before. So we have wonderful colleagues in this space. But, but yeah, go pick up the book, Amazon,
AJV (47:50):
Amazon,
DA (47:51):
Easy to do business with.
AJV (47:53):
And I will put the direct link to pick up the book and the show notes. And for everyone else, make sure you stick around for the recap version, which will be coming next. Dave, love you, love what you’re doing too. Such a rich conversation. Thank you so much for being here. And if people want to follow you, stay in touch with you. What’s your preferred platform?
DA (48:13):
My, you can check me out on my [email protected], and then it gets a little complicated. And on Instagram, it’s the real David Aver, and that’s a catfish for another day. But yeah, check me out. Instagram, the real David Rin TikTok, it’s I think real David Rin. But if, if there are hundreds or thousands of followers, it’s the real account. Otherwise, it’s not me. Go to my website, david rin.com.
AJV (48:36):
So go to his website, david aver.com, go to Amazon, pick up the book ridiculously easy to do business with. Thank you guys for being here. We’ll see you next time.
Ep 502: The Messy Truth of Entrepreneurship with Alli Webb
RV (00:02):
Well, I am so impressed and inspired by this next woman you’re about to meet. Alli Webb is someone who has become a friend. She’s a brand builders group client, and she kind of famously sold, founded and sold Drybar for $255 million. This is back in 2020. So she started Drybar in 2010. It exploded into over 150 locations. Very, very successful product line. She became a New York Times bestselling author as part of that journey, and she has since kind of evolved and, and adapted and diversified into starting many different businesses and using her personal brand to really create enterprise value. She one of their current projects is called Squeeze. I’m AJ and I have been to Squeeze. We love it. It’s, it is massages. They have you know, kind of like health spa sort of situation. And they, Brightside and Beckett and Quill is other businesses that she’s involved with.
RV (01:01):
She’s got a new one called Canopy, where she joined as the, the president Canopy’s, super chic reimagined, humidifiers are making big waves in the beauty industry and innovative beauty device category. So lots of stuff around beauty and health. She’s been a board member of several companies. She’s been on the cover of Inc. Magazine’s, how I did This Issue, she’s been named the hundred most Creative People in Business by Fast Company. She’s been featured on Fortunes 40 Under 40 List Marie Claire’s most fascinating women. And she’s just an amazing, amazing woman who has accomplished so many things. We got to work together on her recent book, the Messy Truth, which of course became a USA Today National Bestseller. And Ally and I became friends, and I was just like, you gotta hear this woman’s story. It’s really, really powerful. So, ally, my friend, welcome to the show.
AW (01:55):
Thank you. And thanks for that warm introduction. I appreciate it.
RV (01:59):
So, I am curious, you know when I think of entrepreneurs, I, I, I almost sort of divide the world into the entrepreneur world, into two categories. There are people who are entrepreneurs, which are like content creators, and, you know, they like do speaking or coaching or, or whatever. And and, and then there are also people in this category who are like you know, professional service providers, financial advisors, CPAs direct salespeople, you know, real estate agents all like actual on, they’re, you know, by definition entrepreneurs, independent contractors, stuff like that. And then I have like a different category. I, I don’t mean to be offensive to either group, but I call ’em real entrepreneurs, which are people who like actually start a company, build it, build it, have to create the marketing, the sales, the product development, the hr, like the whole, the whole thing.
RV (02:57):
They’re not kind of using someone else’s operating system. They’re like building it. And I feel like a lot of the quote unquote real or regular or traditional, maybe traditional entrepreneurs would be a a, a better sense. They kinda look at the people who use their personal brand entrepreneurs and go, eh, I don’t need to build a personal brand. I’m building a business to operate without me. And that’s the whole point. And then you are different. You’ve done both, right? You have straddled both. You’ve built so many real businesses, successful scaling operating entities, but you’ve also put a lot of time into your personal brand. And so I’m just curious, why have you done that? How do you think about that? How do you value it? How do you, how do you justify the quote unquote, time away from your real business to like, kind of build your personal brand? So I’m just curious about that,
AW (03:55):
About that. Well, gosh, I love that framing and that question, and I sitting here listening to that and thinking like, it’s so nice to be asked these kinds of questions now. Like, I feel like I’ve, like graduated from, like, so tell me how you build Drybar, which, you know, is like a, an honest question that most people ask me. And, and, and I’m always happy to share it, but it’s not, it’s, it’s interesting to be asked a question in that framing. So anyways you know, I think that it was a progression, like a gradual progression. And, and it’s funny, and I’m sure you, you experienced this too, as you speak to different entrepreneurs you know, who want different things. And there are those entrepreneurs who, to your point, want to build and grow and scale a company that doesn’t potentially need them eventually, and they can step out and do something else, and they wanna be behind the scenes.
AW (04:46):
You know, I think it’s a, it is, it is a bit of a personality trait. And I, I was just like talking to an entrepreneur that I’m mentoring yesterday, and, and she was saying that her team is really pushing her to be out front and build her own personal brand. And she’s like, I don’t wanna build my own personal brand. I don’t like being in front of the camera. I don’t like being out front. Mm-Hmm. She likes being behind the scenes. So it’s a real, like, personal question of what you like doing, what gives you energy? And, and, and I didn’t, I wouldn’t have known the answer to that question until it was like, thrust upon me. And, and I was, you know, rightfully so, the, you know, brand ambassador for Drybar. It was my idea, it was my baby. I was the hairstylist. Like I was the mom.
AW (05:26):
I was catering to women, like I was the client. So it made sense on multiple levels for me to be the, the, the face of the brand. But you know what, what, what happened as a result of that for me anyways, was like when I, you know, started being on TV and I started being in front of the camera, and I started like, you know, speaking on the brand, like, I really fell in love with that aspect of it, you know? And but it wasn’t like, I wanna go be an actress and be on TV in that regard. Like, I really loved talking about these brands that I built, and more so, because I learned so much as, because I didn’t, you know, this, I didn’t go to college. So I don’t have like any like, degree or any real like pedigree in building a business.
AW (06:11):
I didn’t, I didn’t know a lot when we started, other than the fact that my parents were entrepreneurs. And I had, I had that a little bit, but, you know, I learned on the job. Like, I always say, I feel like I got like a, you know, a business degree growing and building Drybar, and I did, I learned so much. And so I feel so compelled to share all of that. Like, I have so much in my brain that I don’t ever think about, but if you ask me a question about a certain thing, I can usually pull it up a pretty good answer and experience around that thing. And you know, and I think like a lot of, as I’ve gotten older and I’ve been through some, some like pretty crazy hard things, you know, I think it’s brought out this like, you know, piece of me that wants to be of service in lots of different ways.
AW (06:57):
And I think that like my, one of the best ways I can be of service to people is by giving back, like what I’ve learned and being that you know, that place for people to go for when they feel like, I don’t, you know, you’ve done this and, and done that. Like, can, can you, you know, paving the way a bit. So, so I think the decision to build a personal brand ca that’s where it came from, is like a real love for all of it, you know, like, I, I love being on stage. I love talking about my story. I love giving back. And so that’s just, that is a love of mine. So that’s what I’m feeding, you know? And, and I don’t, you know, after, I mean, I built Drybar and I can tell you a hundred things, hundreds of things about how that all happened.
AW (07:41):
But like with Squeeze, for example, Brittany Driscoll, our head of marketing, she, or, or former head of marketing, Drybar, she’s the CEO of Squeeze. She’s in the day-to-Day. I’m not in the day-to-Day. I don’t care to be in the day-to-Day anymore. I’ve done that. I don’t, it is not where I get my energy and life and light from. So, you know, for me, graduating more into the building of a personal brand at this stage felt right. I couldn’t have done this so much in the dry bar days. It was towards the end of the Drybar days that I, I recognized that I wanted to do that.
RV (08:11):
So is, and you think that’s really is how it is, like the success of Drybar, you started to get noticed? Did, did, did, did media outlets start reaching out to you, or did you reach out to them? Like, how did that transition even happen? Like, you’re just, were you minding your own business building, trying to build a successful enterprise? Or were you like hiring PR firms and really trying to get like placements and stuff?
AW (08:34):
Well, I mean, I had, I had a lot of different careers over, you know, like in my twenties, which I highly recommend, you know, people like if you’re, if you’re young and you’re, or even if you’re not young, if you’re listening to this, like go try all the, all the things, you know. And then that’s what I did in my twenties. Like, I, I became a hairstylist, but I also like worked in retail and I was, was, you know, I, I ended up working at Rogers and Cowan, which is a massive PR firm for, you know, this guy named Paul Fur, who was ran the music department. And that was, that experience really taught me how to write and all, all the stops. My point is, all the stops along my journey would, would turn out to be really important. But, so because I worked in pr I really saw firsthand how important PR was.
AW (09:17):
And, and I think it, it looks different in today’s society because it’s like kind of a different kind of marketing PR used to be just like magazines and tv. Then that was it. It’s obviously the social media has changed a lot, but I knew early on before we even opened the, the Doors to Drybar, that we were like, I knew we, I knew we would be able to get good PR because we were such a new concept. So it was like a no brainer. We were gonna go do that. It wasn’t until, you know, we were crafting the pitch, which you do when you’re, you’re working on a, you know, trying to, you know, pitch sell something out there that it was like, oh, okay. You know, in con early, early conversations with our PR team was like, what, what makes sense here? It’s like, well, this was Ally’s idea.
AW (09:57):
This is Ally’s baby. And my, my brother and Cam were, were integral parts. It would never have gotten to what it did without them. But from a relat relatability standpoint, and to sell this to the public, I knew we knew that. Like I needed to be the one out there talking about it. And I didn’t know anything about that. I didn’t know how to do that, you know? But I, you know, we, we recognized that, you know, it was only one person that was gonna really be able to speak to the brand, and it made the most sense for me to do it. So, you know, from the get go, I was doing that, like the first week we opened Drybar, because it was such a new concept. Like, we had TV crews coming in, and I was the one talking to them. And, and I, I mean, I was like, I mean, I, I couldn’t even bear to look back at those interviews because I was so green and I didn’t know how to speak to media yet, and I’ve had media training and, and all that.
AW (10:43):
So it was this kind of slow progression. And I was also really fortunate and, and amazing timing that I was really at the forefront of the entrepreneurial craze that we’re in now. You know, it’s like I, in 2010, like nobody knew people, founders, and CEOs yet. Like, you know, it was like, I remember like looking around going, who else is like me here? Nobody. It was like, maybe, I always think like maybe Donna, Karen, like, there were very few female founders that were known that had started. I mean, the landscape is so incredibly different now, but like, I was at the forefront of that alongside like Candace Nelson and who started Sprinkles and like other, there’s so many female founders now, which is awesome. But, you know, so I, I was at the front of that getting a lot of, you know, talking a lot.
AW (11:31):
And then Drybar became such a big craze, and it was such a love brand, and people fell in love with it that they wanted to talk to me about it, you know? And so it just kind of came, it all really, I mean, we hired PR to build the brand, but I was always the spokesperson. And so I was always the person that people wanted to talk to. And then, and then it kind of, they people became interested in lots of things about me, not just my founder, at not just me being a founder of the company. Like what was I wearing and what trends did I see happening and that kind of stuff. And that was
RV (12:02):
Fun. Well, I wanna talk about that because, you know, there’s this, there is this thing of like, oh, you know, started a company grew, you know, had TV crews there. The first week we grew the company, I was on magazines and then, and then we sold it for 250 million. Like, all of that sounds like a pretty Cinderella story. But then as you became popular and we’re in the public eye, I feel like your life took a little bit of a different direction. So like, what is some of what happened like after Drybar for people who don’t know the story?
AW (12:36):
Well, it’s certainly not a Cinderella story. I mean, and if, and if you know, you know, my book The Messy Truth, like, I, I really talk a lot about how hard it was. And like the first shop, yes, it was very popular and people were showing up left and right. The second shop, crickets, third Shop, crickets. It took so much effort and marketing to get us there. So it wasn’t just like, we opened it, it was amazing. We sold it for 255 million. I was at, you know, on a Shark Tank and on covers of magazines. Like, it did not, it didn’t happen like that. It was a, it was a lot of blood, sweat, and tears without a doubt. And my life fell apart during Drybar. It wasn’t even just after Drybar, you know, it was like my first marriage to my co-founder, you know, fell apart.
AW (13:18):
And my son went through rehab and, and, you know, and Maria, you know, you know a lot about this, and there’s a whole chapter in my book about my son and, and what, and, and the, and the pain that he went through. And, you know, it is as bad as like it can get for a parent. I mean, it was like literal hell. And it was, you know, and the company was like six or seven years in like, still on this like, upward trajectory. But luckily we had built out such a strong foundation and like such an exec, great executive crew, that the company was able to keep going because I was not, you know? And, and so, yeah, I mean, there was so much falling apart in, in the building of Drybar that happened to me personally, you know, that I, you know, gosh, it was, it was so, so hard. It was so, it was definitely not a Cinderella story, for sure.
RV (14:07):
Yeah. So, so then, so, so that, that’s interesting. ’cause I think of it as being after, but it really was, it really was going while, like as you guys were still growing,
AW (14:18):
There was a really, then there my life fell apart again after Yes. But even during it was there was like, I am navigating some really tough waters for
RV (14:27):
Sure. So what, so, so tell us about the Messy Truth. So you mentioned the book, right? So the, the book is the, it, it talks about some of this. So, so why this book? What’s in the book? Like, how does that apply to your entrepreneurial story?
AW (14:40):
Well, it was been an interesting evolution for me. And the fact that I am, I mean, I decided, you know, I was, I decided to call the book The Messy Truth because I wanted, I felt really comp compelled. I think I always thought I’d tell the story of my, the growth and the, the fascination of, of, of how we did Drybar. ’cause People love it so much. But I didn’t, I don’t know that I ever thought I would tell like such a personal, such a, such a personal side of it, you know? And I think that that, that came from when I was in the thick of, of Dry Bar and my life fell apart, and I felt, and social media had, you know, was a really big deal then. And I just felt like I didn’t wanna be inauthentic with, with where I was and, and showing this version of me that was like shiny happy on tv, growing this massive brand and all this greatness in when really in the background I could, you know, get barely get off the floor and I, it it at in a period of time.
AW (15:40):
And so I think I, I couldn’t like lie about that. And so I was, I was, you know, transparent about it to a degree. And what I learned, the feedback that I got, which was so beautiful, was that like, it was really resonating with people because it was like, oh, the polarity of like, she’s got all this success, this company that’s thriving, but holy, her life is falling apart. And so showing that and, and that connection that was formed with so many people that I didn’t even know who were like, oh my gosh. Like, it was like a, it was like a sigh of relief that like, oh, you can both can exist and frankly, both do exist. I mean, I don’t, I don’t think anybody lives a life that’s like perfect and not hard at different times. And so I felt like, I felt like such a, a calling to that, oh, you’ve gotta show all of it.
AW (16:32):
You know, I have a great life. Like, I’m very blessed. I have, I’ve, I’ve had a really great life. I’ve also like, you know, been on the floor and felt like I wanted to die. So I’ve had the extremes of both. But I think that, that, talking about that more the messy truth of it all and, and making that the underbelly of my book, that it’s very much a business book, but I, I always say it’s like a, a business book and a and a, you know, and a memoir had a baby, and this is the book, you know, and it’s because the book does really highlight all of it. And now I just feel like I’ve really taken the messiness to a whole new level. And like, you know, like I was telling you before, starting this messy collective, which is, you know, all the lessons and all the things that I’ve learned, but like, really capitalizing on the, capitalizing is not the right word, but like you know, and you can edit that out, right? ’cause I hate
RV (17:27):
That. Yeah. We can edit, we can edit that if you want.
AW (17:30):
Yeah, edit that out because I don’t wanna say capitalizing, but, but more like, you know, becoming like
RV (18:19):
So talk to me about how’s your personal brand evolving now? I mean, you, you’re, you have clarity on sort of like, it, it seems like this sort of unfiltered, open, honest is like what it is. But from a business perspective, are you still building companies? Are you investing, are you operating, are you boards on, like on boards? Are you just trying to try to like, own minority stakes and let people run it? Like what, what, what are, what does this next season look like in terms of the evolution of the business side of your personal brand?
AW (18:57):
Yeah, I mean, honestly, like a little bit of everything you just said, you know, it’s like we, we do have, you know, companies like Squeeze and Brightside and Okay, humans and these brands that are kind of, you know, that I’m an investor advisor in, I show up to the board meetings, give my thoughts, help where, where, where it’s needed. That’s like one bucket. And then I am on some boards I have a harder time sitting on long phone calls. So I don’t know if I’ll continue to do that. I, ’cause I was experimenting the last couple years of like, what do, how do I wanna spend my time? I do mentor a lot of different entrepreneurs. Like there there’s a, a site called Intro where you can, you can pay to like, have time with CEOs and founders. It’s amazing. And I do that and I enjoy that.
AW (19:41):
You know, and I am, which I haven’t publicly announced yet, starting another brand in the hair space, which I’m gearing up with my brother to do right now. So yeah, it’s like I can’t really stop. I have so many, I have so many ideas and so many things that I wanna do. And I have like, you know, people talking about optioning my book, and then there’s like a, a show idea in the works. I mean, honestly, I couldn’t even, like, it would take a, it would take me a pretty long, long, long list of like, all the things that I’m working on, but it’s all in this vein of like, let me, like, I’m throwing a lot at the wall and let me see what sticks, which is so funny. Rory, and I don’t know if you you’d wanna cut this or not, but I remember when we were sitting in that room and you were talking about Lewis and how when you met him, he was doing so many things and you, like, you helped him like distill it down. My focus.
RV (20:31):
Yeah,
AW (20:31):
The focus, which, which I think about that conversation a lot because I am in that state of, I’m doing a lot of things right now, but I think I’m doing it purposely and I’m aware of what I’m doing because I wanna see what works, resonates, is, you know, is, is is lucrative, like all the things. And I’m not quite sure. And there’s, there’s a handful of them that I’m working on right now which is, which is fun. And I, I almost feel like I’m, like, in my early twenties again, like, I’m like, I’m gonna do this and I’m gonna do this, and I’m just gonna see what, what feels best to me, what, what seems to be working? And so I’m, I’m at this like really fun stage, but
RV (21:07):
You’re kind of experimenting with different Yeah, yeah. Totally different things. The, the tell me about what, what’s the difference between being on a board and being an advisor? Like I, ’cause I think that does happen that we see this a lot with clients es especially as they get more notoriety and as they become more successful, there’s, you know, brand deals sometimes then become equity deals and like consulting relationships sometimes become equity relationships. In your mind, how do you delineate, you know, what, what’s the different to be a, on an, to be an advisor to a company like advisor, investor, board member? Like, how do you think of those roles differently and how do you choose which companies to play each of those roles with?
AW (21:56):
Yeah, I mean, it’s, it’s all like, it, it can look anyway you want it to. I mean, and, and I’ve tried it a handful of ways, you know, I mean, in, when I first, you know, sold the company and made some money, I was pretty, like, I wanted to join some boards and I did that. And like I said, it, it didn’t seem like exactly the right fit for me. It’s different being a board of my own company. But, you know, and then I also was like investing in a lot of brands. Like, I have a lot of, I have a probably like 20 or so investments in companies that are like my friend’s companies, or just like a company that I really believed in, you know, re regardless of what my financial advisors were, like, this feels like a real risky deal. I’m like, I know, but it’s like one of my best friends and I’m doing it more for like, you know, for them to have, to be able to like, use my name or call me up and get some advice and like, you know, kind of a loose relationship, you know.
AW (22:51):
And then there’s like, and then there’s situations where I’m like an advisor for equity, and I didn’t put any money into the company, you know, so they’re able to leverage my experience, have a conversation with me, and I’m not getting financially compensated, but I do have a little stake of equity in the company, you know, so it can, it can look a lot of different ways and you can negotiate really whatever you want. And, you know, it’s just kind of, it is a negotiation depending on what you want. I have, I’ve been through so many different scenarios at this point that I can kind of, you know, at this point I’m, I’ve decided to not invest mostly in most companies unless it’s something really that really gets me and rather say, Hey, I’m not gonna invest financially in here, but I’m happy to be an advisor to the founder, whatever, for equity. You know? So there’s, there’s lots of different ways you can, you can form it and it, it really can be, it’s just a negotiation.
RV (23:44):
Uhhuh
AW (23:55):
I mean, it all depends. I mean, all depends. It just depends. Yeah. It just kind of depends on what’s happening with the company. Like what your, you know, what your outlining as is, what you’re going to contribute to, you know, the company, the founder, how much, how much time and energy you’re gonna give them. You know, it’s, it’s really, it can run the gamut.
RV (24:11):
Mm-Hmm,
AW (25:08):
Yeah. I mean, I was
AW (26:10):
And also, like, I’m just a different person. I’ve been through some real life changing things and I have, you know, as you know, I’ve, you know, really come to find faith in my life. And I think that, like, I didn’t have that sense of, it’s all gonna be okay. It’s all gonna work out one way or the other. You know? I really truly believe that now in a very profound way that I didn’t have that back then. You know, back then I was like, I felt like I had to work myself into the ground, you know, I had to work constantly. And there was, it was like some sort, I talk about this a lot. Like, it was like some sort of badge of honor to work, you know, these crazy days, you know, days that you just like, like are working for the moment you open your eyes to the moment you close your eyes.
AW (26:54):
And like, this was like, and that is a little bit of like the entrepreneurial, you know, plate that we have because we, we breathe this and sleep it and drink it, and it’s just like all consuming, which, which it is. But again, if I had it to do over, I would like put it down a little bit more than I did and, and try, because I did get burned out so much. And there was a, you know, there was a lot of my life that I wasn’t paying attention to my health and to my wellbeing and, you know, things that were, were really important because I thought if I took my, you know, my hands off the wheel for a second, that the whole thing was gonna implode, which it wasn’t, and it didn’t, you know, and, and, and being, you know, like I was saying before with my son, and like the divorce, like that was probably around, I don’t know, year six, seven, something like that.
AW (27:40):
You know, it’s like I, I, I literally, somebody was saying this to me, I heard somebody talking about this not that long ago, that like, you set your company company up in a way that if, like, god forbid something happens to you, that the company will still exist and be okay for many, many years. I don’t think that was the case with Drybar. You know, it was like, I was firmly at the helm of that company, which is great. But like, you know, because we brought in a professional CEO at like two or three years, and then we built up this great team when I did have to dip out and deal with a lot of personal stuff, like nothing, nothing happened in the business was fine, you know? And that I think is a really important thing to point out, you know? And so it just also points to the fact that like, I could have done that sooner and enjoyed my life more than I did in that time when I was so worried and stressed all the time. Mean I, you know, and it’s like, like, you know, life’s too short for that. And I, and I, I, I would do that differently and I just, that’s how I kind of approach things now. I like, you know, and I have to remind myself of that, like, it’s a self-awareness thing, which by the way, self-awareness is probably the greatest gift of all of this, is like having much more self-awareness now than I’ve ever had in my life.
RV (28:53):
Mm-Hmm.
AW (28:58):
RV (28:59):
Tell us, tell us. Put it on the air.
AW (29:02):
I can’t, I mean, I’ve
RV (29:59):
Mm-Hmm.
AW (30:17):
I, I really am. And, and like I was telling you, you know, I ask all like the people in my life who are, you know, who, who would know, I’m like, who’ve like, read the Bible and know, I’m like, I don’t wanna watch this unless it’s like legit, you know? And, and I’ve been given the light green light that it’s, yeah, it’s, it’s pretty accurate. So it’s such a better, you know, and it’s really interesting. It’s like, it’s such a easier way for me to ingest it. And from a storytelling standpoint, you know, my, my best friend Paige and I talk about it now. I mean, it’s like, it’s all I talk about now. And we, you know, and, and a lot of people have said to me, even, even like Mariah Irwin’s daughter has Erwin McManus, which, you know, we all know and love, you know, she’s like, it, it, you probably want to, you know, interpret it in your own way too. Like, watching it from a movie standpoint through somebody else’s lens is, has been really great. But like it, I do, I do have a little bit of like, oh, I should probably ingest it my own way. And, you know, because there just seems to be so many interpretations of it all that I am curious, like what my interpretation would be. So yeah. Yeah. I’m in this conversation a lot with myself,
RV (31:25):
That’s really, that’s really, really cool. Well, you know, you seem really happy. You can, you can sense, you can sense the sense of peace that you have, which is like, it’s just amazing how that comes from faith and not from a dollar figure, or being on a cover of a magazine or having celebrity friends or being invited to the red carpet. Like, it’s, it’s like
AW (31:50):
That’s wild. I mean, I, it’s interesting that you bring that up because it is true. I mean, I’ve had all of that, all those things that you mentioned, and, you know, it was never really fulfilled by it, you know, and, and it’s, it’s fascinating how, how profoundly different, and I feel now you’re right. You know, with this like this, those are not, those are, you know, those are just not real things. It’s really, and I, and they’re cool, and I, I mean, I like ’em, but it’s not, it’s not the thing,
RV (32:21):
Not the thing. So I love it. So we’ll link up to the messy truth is that so people can, can check out the book if they wanna learn more about it. Anywhere else you would point people to if they wanna connect with you.
AW (32:32):
Yeah, I mean, you know, the, the Messy Collective, which is the online community that I’ve just launched which you can get to by just going to ally webb.com or my Instagram, which is just Ally Webb and, you know, this community that I’m trying to create and foster for female entrepreneurs who are in the throes of building their companies and want some advice and community. And I feel really excited and good about it. So I’m, I’m excited to, you know, keep fostering that, that world.
RV (32:59):
That’s really cool, friend. Well, thanks for being so open about everything going on. And it’s, it’s your life is a movie. It’s going to be, it’s gonna be a movie. Your life is Your life is a movie. So I’m waiting for the, I’m waiting for the movie, movie premiered. Oh. I’ll
AW (33:14):
Be calling you to, to help me promote it. Don’t worry.
RV (33:18):
Yeah. So, all right, well, we’re, we’re cheering for you and we wish you the best. Ally Webb,
AW (33:23):
Thank you so much. Awesome.
Ep 500: The Mindset of Relentlessly Pursuing Excellence with Dean Stott
RV (00:02):
Every single month, we probably get about a hundred cold pitches for people to be on our podcast. And we say no to at least 99% of them. We usually only meet guests by people that we know personally, but every once in a while, there’s one that will grab me and I’m like, this is a no brainer. And this is one of ’em. And I am, so I’m just meeting Dean Stott, who you’re about to meet. We’re just meeting for the first time ourselves. But when you hear this guy’s story, it’s gonna blow you away. So he started out in the British Special Forces rose to the ranks to be in, you know, the, the kind of the, the premier in that whole world, right? He was in Special Boat Services. And then what happened is, after that, he got into private security.
RV (00:48):
He has evacuated people from Israel and Benghazi and like, I mean, this guy has been in the middle of like the craziest war scenes you can imagine. So he also is a world record setting cyclist. So fast forward here to a couple years ago and he rode, I want to get this right. So he began training to cycle the longest Motorable road in the world, the Pan-American Highway. He completed a 14,000 mile route from Argentina to Alaska. In May of 2018, he achieved two world records. He raised 1.4 million US dollars for mental health awareness charities. In the process, he passed through 14 different countries on this expedition, crossing some of the most dangerous passages in the world. And in the very final stretch, he continued for 17 hours and covered 340 miles on his longest day. So he then recently released a book called Relentless, just kind of sharing this experience, this inspiration, and I think the overall mindset of unrelenting pursuit of excellence.
RV (02:02):
And so I was blown away by a story. Plus I like having a lot of personal friends who are in special forces. And, and so with that, welcome Dean. I’m so honored to meet you, man. Thank you for being here. Morning, Roy. Thank you for having me. So I wanna start with what your dad told you Yeah. Early in your life because I am someone who I pretty much do everything to avoid physical pain. And so whenever I meet people who do the extraordinary physical feats, I’m just blown away. And you’ve, you, what part of what amazes me about you is you’ve become, like the number one in the world in three completely different, at least three completely different areas that are very competitive areas. But it started, the first one was this British Special Forces journey, and it started, and it didn’t sound like your dad was so much behind what you were doing there in the beginning.
DS (02:59):
Yeah, no, my, my father, he was in the military himself, which was quite shocking when I, I know, I, I always wanted to be a fireman. And I went through school went to college, and I decided that I didn’t really want to go through college. And I, I, I’ve always surfed since a young boy. So I went on a surfing holiday, which was supposed to be for two weeks, and it turned out to be six months. And this was long before the mobile phone. In 1994, my father found me working in a surf shop and sort of highlighted to me that I’d, I’d wasted my education and what was I now gonna do in my life. And so to silence him, I said, well, I will join the military. You know, I’d always wanted to be a fireman, but at the time, I think there was 2000 applicants for one job.
DS (03:37):
There was a huge recession in the uk. So I was not gonna get that, that job straight away. So my mindset was join the Army, do three years, get get what I can from the military, get some discipline, and also build up in the way I wasn’t the physique that you, you see nowadays, I was about five foot seven and weighed about 130 pounds. But my father told me I would last two minutes. It wasn’t the, the comfort and words of motivation I expected. And so for me, I was like, well, I can argue with my father all the way back home now for the next five hours, or I could just be silent. And the best course of action was action itself. So the Monday morning, I walked into the careers office and I joined the Army. But then my father, once he saw that I was being serious, he then started to get, get behind me.
DS (04:22):
But I never had aspirations of doing the Special Forces. My father was the the Ted Lasso of the of the British Army. He was the Army soccer manager and coach. So his career was very sports driven and not like special forces driven. So I didn’t really have an insight into that world. And in a very short period of time, within three years, I’d done every arduous course you could do in the military. I was a para airborne, I was a commando. I was a diver. And already in the tier two special forces. And then the next, the next option for me was tier one Special forces. And as you touched on in the opening dress, I joined the Special Boat Service which is your, your, the equivalent here is SEAL Team six. But I was in ar I was in the Army, and I was told I couldn’t go to the Special boat service.
DS (05:10):
It was just for the Royal Marines only. But unlike here where Delta Force and Seal Team six have their own training, ours is actually combined. And so again, I ignored them. I, I still put my application in and we started with 200 candidates, and then six months later, I was one of the eight candidates that was successful and the first, one of the first to join a special boat service. And I think now 15% of the special boat service come from the Army candidates. So again, yeah, there was a lot of times in my career and in my life that I was told that I couldn’t do anything and I just, just kept my head down or tried to keep my head down. As they say, they tell you to be the gray man on these courses. I was the gray man for about two minutes.
DS (05:51):
RV (06:29):
Yeah, I mean, I love what you said of like, rather than arguing with your dad, like you just take action. I like so many people, their first step is to run their mouth and like brag about all the stuff they’re going to do, or they tell everyone like, here’s the new thing that I’m doing. And they receive all this praise before they’ve actually done anything or, or all this resistance before they’ve actually done anything. Like that must be one of your core philosophies.
DS (06:59):
Yeah, it is. Yeah. And a lot of people, you know, yeah, as you said, they’ll run their mouth off. And some people don’t. I don’t think they realize what’s actually involved. And a lot of people, you know, I personally, I get a lot of messages from people I want to join the special forces. What, what can, what do I need to do? And they almost think it’s, it’s one pill, you know? Or it’s, it is 1, 1 1 one course that you go on. It is, it is an accumulation of, of stuff. You know, I’m not here now in front of you telling you my story because I did it in the last two years. It’s what’s I’ve done over the last 30 years to get here. And I think some people when they, they have the right intentions in their mind to do it, but actually when they realize how difficult or what’s involved, you know, and then there’s also things that can come in a way, you know, I’ve said it before, I’m gonna go do this, and actually something else happens and changes the course direction of my life, and then it, that doesn’t actually come to fruition.
DS (07:49):
So for me, I just think yeah, have it intentionally in your head. And also, I’ll give an example for some people say, I’m gonna run the LA marathon. I only only say that ’cause it’s next weekend. They have the intentions of doing it, but no one actually believes you until you’ve actually put a date in the diary or you’ve actually signed up for it. You know, that’s when I start to think, right? ’cause Once you’ve signed up for it, you’ve let the world know of your intentions, and then there’s that additional motivation to do it. Just talking about it, you know, you could keep talking about it for the next three or four years.
RV (08:20):
So, so this leads to a a, a question I wanted to ask you is, what happens when you sign up for something
RV (08:31):
And you have this moment where you suddenly realize it’s harder than you expected? Right? So, ’cause there’s the, there’s this like honeymoon period when you first sign up for something like, all right, I’m gonna do it. I’m gonna run a marathon, or I’m gonna join, you know, special boat service, or I’m gonna be the the first guy to like ride 14,000 miles on my bicycle. And then there’s gotta be a moment where, you know, you’re in training and you go, whoa, this is harder than I, like, this is harder than I thought it would be. It wasn’t just proving to my dad, like in the moment, like, oh, I was gonna prove to my dad. But then you get into, you know, training or whatever, there’s, you’ve gotta have had those moments. What do you do in those moments? Especially the first ones?
DS (09:15):
Yeah. Well, like, like the 14,000 miles, and that was in 2018. If I was a young 18-year-old boy, I probably wouldn’t have achieved that, you know? So when I was in the military, as I mentioned, I had no aspirations of special forces. But each time I went on a course, whatever course it was, I was physically getting stronger, but mentally I was getting stronger. And so I sort of took that experience in, into the next course and then into the next course. So I do, I, I always say you can’t be experienced without experiences. So my bike ride was an accumulation of everything I’d experienced in my time in the special forces for my time in the private security. And I just adapted that to that. So, so for me, I was confident that I could do it, otherwise I wouldn’t have put my name to it.
DS (09:57):
So for me, I think, yes, it depends where you are in your life and whether you’ve had experiences before that’s gonna help you with, with the new challenge. But I like to get out my comfort zone. So for me, I’ll, I’ll go back to the bike ride. I’d only cycled 20 miles before I applied for the world record. Wow. But what they did is I managed to get as much information as I could from books that I was reading. I spoke to the previous record holders. And I just literally used that information. I got the experts around me to help me. I knew that I could cycle. I knew I had the endurance and the mindset, and I had to choose cycling because I had a parachute accident, which ended my special forces career. So I had to find a sport, which, which wasn’t gonna hamper my knee. And so for me, I, I had been tested before, physically and mentally, so I knew that I just had to do that on, on a bike. But everything else, it was the planning, the coordination, the logistics. My wife ran all that as well around me for me. So also having a good team around you helps you as well. And getting, and getting knowledge of the experts as well.
RV (11:02):
Yeah. So I, I hear you on that, like sort of preparation, research and sort of strategic selection. What about, what about the moments though, when you want to quit? Or like, I mean, like you’re talking about building this mental toughness. Mm-Hmm.
DS (11:50):
Yeah, I think you have to, you have to have a motivation, which is personal to you. You have to be motivated to do, to do that. You know, when I was in the Special Forces, there was some guys there and they, they were there because their dads were in the Special forces. Oh, that’s not a motivation. ’cause When it gets hard, you know, it has to be personal to you. Why do you want to be it? Why is it, you know, when it gets hard, when it gets scary, you know, you need something that’s gonna, that fire to, to push you through. So that, that was that. But with the, with the bike ride, you know, we did it for, as you touched on, for mental health charities, there was 11 mental health charities that we raised the money for. And so I knew that one of the charities called Place to be the, they were gonna get a hundred thousand dollars, a hundred thousand pounds, which enabled 14,000 children to step into a school psychologist.
DS (12:41):
And so I would then revert that into miles. So every mile I was cycling enabled a child to do that. So there’s ways of tricking, tricking the mind. But actually, I, I never had pressure from the sponsors. I never had pressure from the charities themselves. I actually put my, it was my own pressure. I told the world that the ethos of the UK special forces was young, relentless pursuit of excellence. So how does it look to the world if I don’t finish this challenge? So I put myself under my own pressure, but my own motivations. But I also, that’s why I, I aim for the world record. So that’s why I applied for the world record. Sorry. So I had something to aim for, you know, in the military we’re very objective driven and target driven and mission driven. And so that was the mission.
DS (13:22):
And you know, I think after the first week I was 39 miles. The world record was 117 days. And I was aiming for 110 days because when I’d put all the planning together, looked at all the potential scenarios, it was natural disasters, coups, things that are out of our control. You know, you can’t control the uncontrollable. So I gave myself a week’s fudge. So should we encounter any of that along the way? It was eaten into that week. And I think the worst position I was in on the whole challenge was the end of the first week. ’cause We had such strong winds. I was 39 miles behind Target, but my target was still a week ahead of will record. And from then on, it was always gains. And so mentally wise, I was always in a, always in a good place. I was hitting the targets and I was now a ahead of target.
DS (14:06):
So I see people, other people doing challenges or doing, doing things, and they’re like, well, I’m 10 miles behind today, I’ll catch that up tomorrow. But you dunno what’s gonna happen the next day. You could have another bad day and then be 20, 30 miles behind. So that message with your head mentally when you go to bed. So I always say, stay on that bike, stay in that canoe, make those extra five phone calls at work. Make sure you where you are, where you are supposed to be at the end of the day because you are then in the right mindset and head space going in on the next day. You are not trying to catch yourself up.
RV (14:38):
Uhhuh.
RV (15:31):
I know that you have become perhaps what many would say is the, is the number one leading expert in the world in evacuations. Yeah. You’ve done evacuations in, you know, the, the highest stake situations you can imagine. Mm-Hmm. There you’re not facing pain as much as you’ve gotta be facing fear. Yeah. there is, you know, literally you could turn around at any second and lose your life. Yet you’re running into those situations. You’re going there repeatedly you’re thriving. How are you, what is your strategy for managing the fear in those moments of the, you know, the potential life and death at any moment?
DS (16:15):
Obviously there, there’s fear comes in all shapes and sizes. You can, there’s so many fears for me with, with this, I was confident in the plan. You know, I would be more fearful if I wasn’t confident in my plan or there wasn’t a plan in place. So the, the, the very first time I did this was back in May, 2011 in, in the Arab Spring in Libya. And I soon identified these, these largest security companies were charging six, seven figures, sums of crisis management evacuation plans, which weren’t actually in place. And that still seems to be a lot of the cases today. So I bought 30 weapons off the black market. I buried them between tuna and Egypt, and designed my own evacuation plans. And I put them in place. And then when your American ambassador got killed in Benghazi, I was there that evening and got an oil company.
DS (17:01):
And yes, there’s a lot of things going on, but where I’ve been successful in this is I don’t bring in westerns my own teams, guys that look like me. I use local resources. I use as many local people as possible. It’s understanding the demographics, the politics, and the tribal influences of the countries. So actually the success of the majority of mine has been down to local influence and, and support and sort of capitalizing on that. Because as you, as you touch on the Special forces, Hollywood doesn’t help matters. You know, what you see on the movies is called the offensive action. The bo the, the bombs, the bullets and the biceps. You know, that’s, that’s 25% of what we do. 50% of what we do is, is support and influence its hearts and minds. It’s being embedded by locals actually understanding what’s happening on the ground, ground truth, and not what’s being reported on the media. And so that’s where the success has been for me. And that’s, and going back to your question reduces my fear because I’m not fearful ’cause what I’m seeing on TV, because I actually know what’s going on the ground, the ground truth, where things are happening. And we are probably one or two stages ahead.
RV (18:08):
Interesting. That’s fascinating. So you said 25% is bombs, bullets, and biceps, 50% is influence, you know, the support,
DS (18:16):
Support, support and influence hearts and minds. Yes. Small things just being embedded with locals, working with better winds, working with tribes in all these countries and really understanding, you know, especially for ex for example, Libya. Libya has 167 tribes. You, you know, I mean, you have to really understand the nuances with that. So when I had the the Benghazi incident, the easiest option would be to drive from Benghazi to Tripoli in about eight hours along the coastal road. But coming from Benghazi, you can’t get a driver from Benghazi to Tripoli. You’ve gotta go through Misrata to Tripoli. There’s various tribes along the way. And so what I did is I headed south to Zella. I had a safe house in Zella. We stayed there for 36 hours. We just actually see what was happening because at this point we still didn’t know what was going on.
DS (19:04):
We didn’t realize the American ambassador had been killed. And that gave us this soap period. But unbeknownst to the drivers, I had other drivers coming in from Tripoli. And so I could send those drivers home and use those. Because again, if you didn’t really understand those tribal in infants and, and things like that, you could, you get yourself in trouble. You could think, right, I can just drive to to, to Libya. So they’re, they’re the sort of things I needed to understand is what people can I use, who are the best people that are gonna help me get to certain areas? And when I evacuated the Canadian embassy from Tripoli to T is 18 military in four diplomats. My fixer, he was from ra, which was the border of Tuni. So he knew everyone along there, but also his cousin was the president of the GNC, which was the new interim government.
DS (19:51):
So it’s really just having the right people, the right key people. And also the key to me is it is showing respect to the locals as well. So the British Embassy, when, when I evacuated the Canadian Embassy, the British Embassy got shot at, at every checkpoint the week before, which was obviously worrying the Canadians. So myself and my fixer went out to the checkpoints. We didn’t speak to the guys with the guns, we spoke to the tribal elders. And we actually just sat down with, and we were just very transparent. We’re like, this is who we are, this is our intentions, and this is when we’re gonna do it. And they, they let us in, let us through. It is just because the British embassy decided to speed through without stopping or even negotiating. So a lot of it’s, you know, it’s just simple communication and respect.
RV (20:36):
What’s the other 25%?
DS (20:38):
The other 25% is probably
RV (20:45):
Yeah.
DS (20:45):
‘Cause You obviously, you can’t act on, on any of that without without the, without the information itself. So surveillance.
RV (20:52):
Yeah, it’s fascinating. I mean, it’s almost like what you are doing also with like your bike ride you’re talking about. It’s like a lot of this is the gathering information and the intel on the front end. Yeah. Then, then creating a plan. And if you do that, then the last, it’s only the last 25% is like the muscle.
DS (21:09):
Yeah. Well, I, I, you know, one of the things we do in the special forces is I think that you guys in America, they call it a, a washup, we call it a hot debrief. So every time we came off the ground, whether it’s on operations, on exercise, anything we do daily before we clean our weapons, get showered, have food we do a hot debrief. ’cause It’s still fresh in your mind. And so as soon as the helicopter landed, we’d be off and the the ops officer would have us in. And it was three simple questions. It was, what worked, what didn’t work? And if you were to do that again, what would you do differently? And these are great lessons because each operation’s slightly different. So when I did the bike ride, I was getting information from books that I was reading and, and articles, but I wasn’t getting that critical information for my plan. And so I reached out to the previous record holders and I asked them those three questions and all their issues were in south and Central America, bureaucracy, languages, spares to the bikes. They all started in Alaska and finished in Argentina. So for me, I was like, well, why take a gamble with a second half? Why not get address those issues early? And so that’s what I did. I turned it 180, I started in Argentina and finished in Alaska. And that, that was my plan, and that was literally from the information I got from them.
RV (22:22):
Wow, that’s wild. They were willing to, they were willing to just talk to you and share it.
DS (22:26):
Yeah. Which was a great, a great surprise to me. Yeah. It seems to be, you know, with the world records, you’re there just to set a bar, you know, you want other people to help. You know, I’m helping a young gentleman at the moment who’s wanting to beat the world record next year. And so, yeah. You know, for me, I wasn’t a cyclist. I dipped my toe in it just to, to prove a point. I started cycling at the age of 40. And so, you know, he’s a younger guy. And so for me, I was like, well, here’s the information, here’s what I learned. And, you know, hopefully you can learn from that. But there are other factors that you can’t control. Weathers, you know, when I went through Nicaragua, I think four weeks later, there was a coup, you know, there’s certain things that are outta your control.
RV (23:05):
Yeah. So I’d like to talk about that for a second, because, you know, let’s say you do all the planning, right? Like you’re gonna launch a business or pursue some goal or dream, right? You do all the planning, you get all the surveillance, you get the right people on board, they go to help you, you then, you know, overcome your fear. You’re in the situation, you’re doing the stuff, but then sometimes there are things that just happen outside of your control. Yeah. There, like, you could do everything. You could do everything, right? Yeah. And suddenly there’s this thing that takes place that you, there’s no way you could have planned for, you didn’t plan for. What’s the mindset that you use in those moments to, to sort of deal with or reconcile and move past the things that happened that are like, that you didn’t prepare for that just were completely out of your control?
DS (23:55):
Well, there, there was a, the, I would use, probably use the bike ride as a good example. You know, I, I headed from south to north. I 10 days off the South America world record. My wife was the campaign director. My wife, you know, she, she’s the team. You know, I would talk about the success of individuals, you know, people would’ve seen me on social media, but it was the team around me. My wife was very much the, the lead for that. But actually we had a a, a RV and a four by four, which was gonna get shipped from Fort Lauderdale to Panama. Because coming from south to north, we were having to change vehicles at every, every border crossing we could get one from Alaska to Argentina if you crossed the Darien gap. And so my wife rang me when I was in Ecuador to tell me the vehicles hadn’t been loaded onto the shipping container.
DS (24:39):
So that was out of our control. But my wife and my pa and a couple of friends they drove, they flew over and they drove the vehicles 4,000 miles in eight days from Fort Lauderdale down to Panama, through Mexico and all the la Central American countries. Wow. So that was, you know, we didn’t see that, but we reacted to the situation change, and it kept to the team moving. I then get into North America on day 70, and I’m 14 days ahead of the world record. So mentally I’m, I’m in a good place. You know, I’m now in America. Everyone speaks my language, the culinary options a lot better. And my wife then rings me five times, and I think, you know, normally she keeps distractions away from me. I think there’s something wrong with our children. And she then tells me that we’ve been invited to Harry and Meghan’s wedding, which was, which was nice.
DS (25:26):
No, prince Harry and, and Meghan. Wow. So I was like, and this was their, this was the charity that we were doing for, was for Harry, William and Kate. It was one of their charities called Heads Together. And I said to her, I said, that’s nice. She goes, no, you don’t understand. You are now one day behind. So going into that phone call, I was 14 days ahead, 10 minutes late, I’m now a day behind, because the last flight out of Alaska in time for this wedding was Day 102. So I had to change that I way that I cycled in, in North America. I had the luxury being able to cycle at night because in South America and Central America, it’s safer to be off the road. And so I I cycled North America. I had 17 days planned. I did an 11 and a half days.
DS (26:06):
I literally, I got to Lubbock in Texas the next day. We had 16 mile an hour winds in tornado. So it’s now two days behind. And there’s a, there’s an app on your phone called Windy tv, which is very popular with sailors and cyclists. And it gives you the strength and directions that the winds forecast for two weeks every hour. And so I just put pen to paper. I had to cycle 340 miles in the next 36 hours to miss the next weather window and just played chess with Mother Nature. So I was using what resources I had available to me. I picked up a 50 mile an hour tailwind in Cheyenne, you know, which covered 270 miles in 11 hours. And so that’s where I gained that time. And so, you know, the, the situation that the objective hadn’t changed the timelines had.
DS (26:52):
And so I got a week outside and then I got a in a town called Whitehorse. And I get a, a phone call from a friend saying, have you seen this guy who’s, who’s a professional cyclist sponsored by Red Bull? He’s already got free hover endurance wheel records. He’d come out on social media that day and said he wanted to be the first person to cycle the Pan-American Highway under a hundred days. So every time I kept hitting my objective, my objective kept moving. And so I was, I could have stayed on the bike and just, you know, come in at reasonable time, but I just, for me, I wasn’t happy. So I, I pushed myself even harder. I cycled I cycled for 20, 28 hours in the last 36 hours to come in, in, in in 99 days, 12 hours and 36, 56 minutes in minus 18 winds and snowing in,
RV (27:41):
It was what it was 99 days.
DS (27:43):
99 days. 12 hours and 56 minutes. So again, and I think on the, on the last two days, I had 250 miles to do. And I was like, well, I’ll do 150 miles today, I’ll do a hundred on the last day. And we’re well in under a hundred days. I did the first 50 miles and we got to a a roadblock and they, they, they were like, you cannot pass. I, I hit the roadblock at noon. They said, you cannot pass till eight o’clock tonight. So they took eight hours off me. So even to the very last day, there were things that are outta my control. So I just, you know, the success of this was a, was having a plan, but also being flexible with that plan, just reacting to the situation changes. You know, for me, first question is, is anyone gonna die? No. Then we can always make a plan, get the kettle on, and we’ll make a plan. But yeah, that wasn’t, when I was back in UK making that plan, I didn’t factor this other cyclist. I didn’t factor tornadoes. I didn’t factor royal weddings. There was stuff that were outta my control.
RV (28:41):
Those dang royal weddings, man. I mean, you get invited to those things, they just screw everything. They just really screw everything up.
DS (28:48):
Yeah. Yeah.
RV (28:50):
Well that’s so cool, Dean.
DS (28:51):
Yeah.
RV (28:52):
I so, so the book is, the book is called Relentless Ya. Where do you want people to go to like, learn more about you and the book and stay in touch with what you’re doing?
DS (29:02):
Yeah, so you go to my website, deans.dot com. You know, a lot of this stuff will be up on there. I’m on the normal social media, media handles Instagram and Facebook. And you can also buy the book either on the website or through Amazon.
RV (29:17):
And then if there’s somebody right now who’s listening, who is in one of those moments where like either they are experiencing pain, right? Mm-Hmm. They have a goal. They’re either experiencing pain, they, it’s harder than they thought, or perhaps they’re experiencing fear. There’s some threat that has showed up, or perhaps they’re just facing some, you know, outside circumstance beyond their control. Yeah. And you know, they’re sitting in that moment right now debating whether or not they should keep moving forward and sort of pressing towards the objective and towards the goal and towards the mission. What, what encouragement would you give that person right now?
DS (29:58):
I think what I used to use for some of my recruits on the commando calls when they were fearful on certain tasks that we were doing was anticipation is worse than participation. You know, your mind plays tricks on you. You think that is impossible. I’m scared. And actually, once you push through, once you leaned in and got through it, you look back and think, actually that wasn’t as bad as I thought. So that was probably my, my leaving comment for them.
RV (30:23):
I love that. I love that anticipation is worse than participation. Make the plan, take the action, have faith in the plan. This is so good. Dean, thank you for sharing your insights with us, brother. And thanks for the protection you provide and for the way that you push and, and, and challenge all of us through what you’re doing, man, we wish you all the best.
DS (30:44):
Thank you so much, Rory. Appreciate it.
Ep 498: Important Things to Consider Legally When Starting a Business and Building a Brand with Matthew Miller
AJV (00:02):
Hey, everybody. Welcome to the influential personal brand, AJ Vaden here. So, so, so excited to get to introduce you guys to one of my closest friends, Matt Miller. And although I could literally spend the next 60 minutes just shooting the breeze with Matt, that is not the purpose of today’s conversation. So y’all, before I introduce you guys to Matt, I want to tell you what the premise of this podcast is all about and why you need to stick around. And then I’ll do a quick formal introduction. There are a lot of things changing in the legal landscape, and here’s what I know to be true. Most of us have no idea what they are,
AJV (01:01):
And so I have invited on a very, very knowledgeable wise individual to help us understand what it is that we need to know when it comes to protecting our business, protecting our personal brand, but then also just some things we need to know in the ever constant changing landscapes of what it means to do business today in the United States. So that is what today is about, which means if you’re in business, it pertains to you. So stick around. So now let me formally introduce you to Matt, formally Matthew, but I call him Matt Miller, who is a nationally recognized attorney and a legal advisor to businesses with a niche in healthcare companies as he lives in Nashville, Tennessee. Everyone has to do business in healthcare. But my love is that he has a focus on merger, mergers, acquisitions, private equity transactions, and general corporate law.
AJV (02:00):
I’ve been harassing him for months on how do you, how do you become my, my general counsel? I think eventually he will fold and say, fine, fine here. Here’s how we do it. But he is literally, when we say nationally recognized, he was named as one of the Bloomberg laws, 40 under 40, and being recognized as one of the nation’s most accomplished legal minds. He has been recognized in the best lawyers in America. He has overseen transactions ranging from a hundred million to over a billion dollars. That’s with a be. And that is why I have him come o come on the show today because I need someone who actually knows what they’re talking about to help us understand what is going on in the legal landscape today. So, Matt, welcome to the show.
MM (02:44):
Thank you, aj. This is amazing to be here. Are you guys a billion dollars yet? I think you’re getting close.
AJV (02:48):
MM (04:11):
Well, that’s, you know, like we said, broad questions are the name of the name, name of the game today, I guess. I mean, I, I think it’s amazing that, you know, a lot of people are getting their legal information off of Google today.
MM (04:52):
So what we do as lawyers is not just, you know, have the information in our heads and, and, and, you know, provide that to clients, but we try to organize and apply that information in a way that benefits the client. So I think with all that’s going on out there with, with the changes, and like you just pointed out, is it is an election year. There is is going to be potentially a change in the executive branch. There could be changes at the judiciary. There were certainly a lot in the last few years. There are changes happening at the regulatory level on the FTC side. There are changes happening at the antitrust level. There are changes happening in the small business domain. There are so many things happening. How do you get your mind straight around what’s important?
MM (05:41):
You know, what, what, what do I need to pay attention to? What is just you know, not applicable to me? And, and there’s a lot. So I totally see how it can be overwhelming at times for the small business owner. And, and that’s what I really would like to do, is help make that a little bit more accessible, make it a little more organized, make it a little more or understandable so that small business owners can go out and feel protected and, and have confidence in what they’re doing is compliant. So, I mean, I guess one of the, one of the areas I think, or I guess what I could say at the outset is, one thing that’d be good to like take off the table is that if you are a small business owner that is operating, you don’t need to really have your finger on the pulses of every legal, legal change.
MM (06:21):
I think you do need to be aware of a couple things. And those with, with, by and large, don’t change, right? So the typical rules around formation of your corporation, the tax rules around recognizing revenue and income those things, you know disclosures to your shareholders, if you have shareholders, how you treat employees, you know, discrimination, hiring and firing rules, all that doesn’t change by and large. But the things that do change, you hear about, right? And I, I think we were talking either before we started, or you just mentioned it, that we’ve all heard about the recent changes to the non-compete laws that have been proposed. And you, you’re right. I mean, the FTC, which is one of the agencies that oversees antitrust and anti-competition laws held a special session where they voted three to two to actually make illegal non-competition agreements for most workers.
MM (07:18):
Okay? Hmm. So this applies to both W2 employees and to consultants. And that’s a pretty revolutionary thing. And formerly you could apply a non-compete to an employee in most states. It just had to be narrowly tailored in terms of the scope and in terms of, you know, the geographic scope and then the duration of the non-compete. But what the FTC has said is that starting, and I, I, I apologize, I don’t remember the effective date of this, but it, you know, it’s not effective yet, but starting here in a few months, the proposal is that every non-compete would be defacto illegal in the United States. Now, there are a couple of exceptions to that. There’s, there’s the standing exception for if you sell your business, you’re not allowed to turn around and compete against the buyer. So non-competes in connection with the sell of the business will remain in effect, and non-competes for certain high level executives will be allowed, it seems again, with narrow prescriptions around duration and scope.
MM (08:19):
So that is one key area that has changed a lot, and it’s interesting to see that that happens right on the cusp of an election year. So you’re right to be mindful of those things. But I wouldn’t say that you need to be juggling all of this as a small business owner. You can talk to your tax accountant, talk to a CPA or talk to a lawyer who, you know or even if you have to Google it, and they’ll probably give you enough information at least, oh, ask an intelligent question
AJV (08:47):
Yeah. So on this topic of non-competes, like, just in case someone is listening, going like, okay, I hear this term tossed around a lot, but what does that actually mean? Can you like, help explain, like, what is a non-compete?
MM (08:59):
Right. Well, a non-compete is actually a it is a contractual agreement. It’s a restrictive covenant. Okay? So it’s a promise that you make as an employee or, you know, going forward a consultant that says that you will not participate in a business that is potentially competitive, or is comp actually competitive with the person or the company on the other end of that agreement? Right? So if you are an executive at a company and, and you’re privy to a lot of internal information, a lot of confidential information, then you go and leave that company and you want to start another business that your company will want to put certain restrictions around you to make sure that you’re not going to start a business that could compete and, and take away customers and take away take, take away business, take away employees to, to this new venture.
MM (09:56):
Mm-Hmm,
MM (10:48):
It goes beyond logos. You know, I think, you know, you talk a lot about reputation. It, it really is your, a reputation in the marketplace, or in other words, your goodwill. That’s the legal term for it. One way to really lock up goodwill is a non-compete. A non-compete means you can’t take that goodwill from one business and take it over to another one. It is restrictive. It is, it is in some cases could be deemed punitive. And so the law has always tried to reduce those and tried to make those reasonable and supported by consideration. But now it’s, it’s, it’s, you know, could be the law of the land. And now states have been doing this for many years. California has always made non-competes defacto illegal, and you can actually get in trouble if you try to enforce one in, in certain states. But the landscape is changed, is, is changing. And I think it’s important for brand owners to understand that it, this is actually a potentially good thing for them because it means that their, their goodwill is going to be protected and respected and not subject to unreasonable restraints.
AJV (11:58):
Yeah. You know, it’s interesting because this whole concept of a non-compete or a consultant Mm-Hmm.
AJV (12:54):
It’s like, right. There’s a lot of different things there that probably was not okay when I was in that world just even six years ago. And today it’s going, no, like I could go do whatever I want with all of your competitors, but then also I wanna talk about it as the, as the owner, as the CEO, as the founder. If I hire a consultant, the last thing in the world that I wanna do is give them keys to the kingdom of everything we have built, and then have them also go call up John Smith, you know, my top competitor and go do it for them too. So I see how it’s advantageous in one, you know,
MM (13:37):
Out? No, no. You, you are exactly right. And it’s a very astute question, and I’m trying to get too in the weeds on this, but, you know, consultants, you can restrict their performance, right? Because one of the tests to see if someone’s an employee versus a consultant or not, is whether or not the company or the employer is exercising too much control over the service provider, right? If you exercise too much control, then they actually convert from a consultant or an independent contractor into an employee. And one of the ways that you exert too much control is, is having something that’s an expressed non-compete against a consultant. So they have or, you know, so you, you, you will see, you will see things like conflicts of interest policies where they will say that if you are working for us on this project, you cannot go out and work again, you know, work for a competitor.
MM (14:30):
While you know, you know, you know, while you have this information with, with us, that is, that is a non-compete that would be potentially struck down under, under the analysis the FTC is now putting out. So conflict of interest type policies you know, you have to really word those correctly to have them only apply, like while the service provider is providing services. And you really can’t have a post-term period of a non-compete. And so that is potentially challenging for the business owner and potentially liberating or freeing for the consultant. Mm-Hmm,
MM (15:43):
There’s lots of different ways that you can address this new liberality that consultants have under these non-compete under the loosening of the non-compete laws. But but yeah, I mean, previously consultants were the most subject to these kind of ancillary non-competes that were, were enforceable. Now they’re seeing a, a great lifting of those restrictions in their ability to go provide services after the consulting agreement is ended. So during, during the period of, of service, you know, a non-compete or some sort of conflict of interest policy that’s reasonably tailored, that’s probably okay. Mm-Hmm,
AJV (16:41):
So that’s interesting. So it’s kind of like with anything, it was, there’s this natural ebb and flow, right? You’re gonna have some release of some of these restrictions, but it’s very likely, very possible and probably in the, you know, business owner’s best interest to then tighten up some areas of contract or service agreements and other areas like, you know, confidential information and trade secrets, right?
MM (17:07):
And, and that’s, those are usually the information that, those are usually the terms that the business owners know least about. Yeah. And there’s not great forms that really cover they’re sort of broad based, you know, templates that are out there, but they don’t really address your unique business and your individual business and your situation, and they may not be tailored to your laws. Particularly trade secrets are operate under a wholly different set of laws than just typical confidential information operates. So those are kind of separate concepts. You know, I think something else to keep in mind is that non-solicit will still be enforced. So there are certain things that the law will allow you to continue to do that have been historically the way we’ve done business for a long time. And things like non-disparagement clauses, other restrictive covenants that prevent someone from leaving a company and then saying bad things about that company later down the road.
MM (17:58):
Those will all be those will all still continue as will just general releases when you, whenever an employee, employee leaves a company. And, and if, if, you know, if there’s a, if you get a release from them, those will be upheld and enforced so long as they’re supported by consideration. Mm-Hmm.
AJV (18:35):
Yeah. So it’s so interesting because, you know, on the one hand, you know, our former business was heavy on, you know, 10 99 and, and we literally had to like, you know, check every t dot every i for, you know, all the compliance things. And I wonder just like, how much of this is just to deter, right? Hiring 10 90 nines and kind of forcing everyone towards the more W2 environment Mm-Hmm.
MM (19:04):
Tax. Sure. Well, and, and there’s another thing to keep in mind too, is that a lot of companies will have arbitration clauses with their consultants, and you have to word that arbitration clause correctly. I’ve seen this a lot lately where an arbitration clause that does not have a carve out or protecting your confidential information means that you’ll have to go to arbitration in order to protect your ip. Right? Now that is difficult because you’re going into court where there’s not a judge that can give you an order that can allow you to do an injunction. You’re really in front of a binding judge. But that, but they’re not a court of, it’s not a court of law. It’s not under the laws of our United States and our federalist system. It’s more of like a contractual agreement between the parties to go to a commercial resolution Mm-Hmm.
AJV (20:15):
And then you also mentioned the non-solicitation. So that will stand, so can’t solicit employees, can’t solicit clients. All of those things will stand, even though the non-compete will eventually fade away.
MM (20:30):
That’s right. Because, you know, that’s a restriction on on, on the, you know, not a restriction on someone’s ability to, to be employed and to go work where they want to work is different than the ability for someone to come and, and take employees from someone else. And now you, you can always generally advertise and, and invite people to come work for your company, and you just can’t do a targeted solicitation if there’s a non-solicit in your contract. And, and that will continue to be the case. But yeah, this is, you know, it, it, there’s a, there are also some changes happening that are relevant to the business owner in, in something, some things around corporate formation and reporting beneficial ownership. And I think, I think, you know, aside from the non-compete, there, there are some changes in the law regarding corporate information.
MM (21:24):
And, and that’s called the Corporate Transparency Act. You may have heard of it. This is a law that requires it, it was really put out for to prevent money laundering. And so people would companies were starting shell companies and no one really knew who owned these entities. And in order to deter fraud and, and in order to like cut back on Monday laundering and things like that, they have started requiring businesses to report their ownership. Now, it’s interesting because one of the carve outs or exceptions from the reporting obligation are large businesses or businesses with lots of employees. Those typically do not have to report their beneficial ownership, but small businesses do. And so this is one of those laws which is meant to target one group of, of individuals or, or, or companies or founders, but it ends up you know, having an effect on a d on a different class that they really intended.
MM (22:24):
A lot of people are still grappling with the requirements of the CTA. There are portals to register and, and to make reporting your information more efficient. Most people are not even aware of it, and there’s already a couple suits making their way up to the Supreme Court, hopefully about the legality of requiring people to disclose their ownership in, in these corporations. So that’s another development that if you’re not aware of it speak to your lawyer or talk to your even accountant would probably have some information on that. And then the the so,
AJV (23:01):
So on that note, really quick before you move on, so the Corporate Transparency Act is basically, so when you say small business, is this like under 5 million, under 10 million? Like, are, is it a revenue requirement? Is it employee requirement? What is it?
MM (23:16):
Yeah, I, so I think there is an employee requirement. If you have more than 20 employees then, then, you know, I think you, you fit into the large business. And I think that there’s, I, I can’t remember right now off the top of my head what the revenue requirement is. But we actually have a policy at our firm that any advice related to the CTA has to be run through a special team because it’s so new and it’s just so unclear what, what the process is. I mean, this happened January of this year, and now we’re just, just past April tax reporting season, and now people are starting to report for the first time. And
AJV (23:54):
How are people supposed to know about this?
MM (23:57):
AJV (24:30):
Yeah. So there’s a couple of things. So I just think this is so fascinating. I only knew about the Corporate Transparency Act because you told me and I consider myself pretty savvy when it comes to tax law and corporate law. And I mean, there’s been two or three things that have come up here lately that I’m like, well, what, where did I miss the memo on that? And I am generally someone, I subscribe to a lot of newsletters, I attend lots of webinars. I’m in different organizations to keep me up on that, and I’m still just like missing stuff left and right. And I’m just curious, for the average business owner who is head down in their business, who’s not checking in with an attorney on a regular basis and really only talks to their accountant during tax season, like, what are the repercussions for not doing this or not knowing about it? Like, are there gonna be penalties? Are there fines like,
MM (25:27):
Well, we don’t even know. That’s the point.
MM (26:22):
And if you keep that in mind, a lot of things that you think are the law, they could change because either they don’t align the incentives correct correctly, or they’re, they don’t promote efficiency. Hmm. You know, so that, that’s one of the things that’s, that’s cha challenging about the law, is that even when something is the law, like in the case of the non-compete that we discussed, that can change in a year or, or, you know, in, who knows, it may, it may come back and it may, it may be different in different states, but, but it, it looks like at least for now, that those are the two big developments this year are, is the change of the non-compete, which, which would be a federal law, meaning it applies to all states, and that a state could not go below that floor.
MM (27:07):
And, and the, the Corporate Transparency Act, which requires small businesses to report their beneficial ownership. I think it, if, if you could put that on the awareness radar of most of your audience and most of your listeners, I think then they can start asking the questions, well, what do I need to do? But in terms of the penalties for non-compliance, in terms of like, what happens if you don’t do it? You know, my advice would be do it follow the law, right? While it’s the law. But the truth is we don’t know because it’s so new. So even lawyers are grappling with these things.
AJV (27:41):
So fascinating. And part of why I wanted you to come on, because I think there’s just so much that, you know, unless you do have, like, you know, legal counsel on staff or accountant on staff, and most, I would say personal brands don’t, right? That this is a really hard thing to keep up with. So is there a place that if you don’t have an attorney that it’s like, oh, well, this is how I get federal updates or legal, like, does that exist? Like, how do you
MM (28:10):
Find this stuff out? You, you know, you know, unfortunately, it, I don’t, to my knowledge, there is no place other than having a lawyer to explain these things to you. There’s no place you can go that will give you legal advice. I mean, it’s, it there, the way that our legal system is structured and the way that our attorney-client engagements work, it’s very outdated. It’s very antiquated, and it, it, it, it, it’s not that it discourages the free full of information because you can get information and you can get people to help you. Like you can go to a conference, for example, Mm-Hmm.
MM (28:59):
You know, you know, about these changing trends, about these legal issues to the general public. Mm-Hmm.
MM (29:55):
I, I think the law firm model is, is really evolving from a, a fee for service institution to a, to a flat fee kind of project based or relationship based model where clients are able to get the information that they need based on their, their unique situation and, and not so much based on the billable hour as it has been in the past. And, and that, that is one big problem out there is that the affordability of good legal counsel, it’s hard, is not really available. Yeah. We don’t, and now, now there are legal clinics that are out there, right? There are, you know, there, there are services that will provide advice on a relatively budget basis but a lot of, a lot of founders, a lot of entrepreneurs that are actually making revenue and growing and growing businesses won’t qualify for a lot of that support Mm-Hmm.
MM (30:56):
AJV (31:57):
Yeah. Because at the end of the day, well, first of all, it seems like there’s a gap in the marketplace that you should go and fill. So I’m just gonna give some encouragement. There seems like a, well, I, I have,
MM (32:07):
I have some updates I can share on that if you, if you want.
AJV (32:09):
Yeah. Yeah. But then also I think it is kind of one of those things of, you know, really it’s like, it’s, it’s the beauty of content creation, right? It’s like the whole premise of, you know, give away the what for free charge for the how. Right? It’s like, just because I know about the Corporate Transparency act doesn’t mean I’m gonna go and DIY the whole thing. It’s like, tell somebody for free, tell me about it, and then tell me how you could help me do it. Right? It’s, you know, welcome, you know, to year 2024 attorneys. So,
MM (32:41):
Well, I mean, there are actually, there are actually in, in, in the, in the, for the average business, there are really five journeys that they go on and, and the lifecycle, right? And it’s, it’s starts with, with the, with the founding or the formation of the, of the business. And then it goes all the way through to the exit of the business. And as the business grows and evolves and goes through these different journeys, I like to call them their needs change. And so it’s not just about having advice at, at the stage that you’re at, it’s what are, what advice are you gonna need as you continue to grow and evolve? Because it, it does change every time.
AJV (33:19):
Yeah. So it’s a great transition that I think would be really good to talk about is since you have such specialty in mergers and acquisitions I would love to just hear from you, like, what are the things that people need to know or consider? Like if somebody is listening today going, Hey, maybe I’m in the beginning phases. Maybe I’m in growth phase, maybe I am, you know, ready to exit, whatever they are. But what are some things that you see that make a business worth buying? Right. Because I think there’s a difference in I’m trying to sell my business versus someone who’s trying to buy my business. Right? Right. And I think we just had this conversation a couple of weeks ago with a friend of mine of going, trying to sell your business means that you are trying to find someone versus someone who’s trying to buy it. So make it a business worth being bought. Right? Right. So, how do you make your business worth being bought? So since you’ve been through this, what are some of those things? Like what makes a business purchase worthy?
MM (34:22):
Yeah, so I mean, I mean, I, I guess the first thing is what you do in the early stages really matters at the end. Mm. And it’s not just, okay, now we’re ready to sell our business, let’s go to market. It’s, it really when someone comes to look at your business, they’re gonna do diligence on your business, and they’re gonna go all the way back to the moment that you formed your company till the present date. So things that you do in the beginning matter later. And that’s, that’s the first point. The second point is that, you know, the, the way you organize your business model matters a lot too. If, if you are going to be a services business, that is kind of one direction, if you’re going to be an ip business, that, that relies more on proprietary information and systems, that is another direction, right?
MM (35:06):
If you’re, if you’re gonna have a brand that does a little bit all the above, you know, that’s, that’s another business. And, and those businesses are valued differently and, and, and at the later stages of their, of their life than they are than the others. So not every process is the same, but, but what we look at when we’re trying to acquire a business is we wanna make sure that the risk is minimized as much as possible for the buyer. And that if anything was done that was not correct or not accurate you know, or not in compliance with law, that that risk remains on the seller. So you, you, it’s not like you can just sell your business and then you don’t have to worry about it anymore. I mean, the buyer will make sure that, that you are responsible and ultimately held accountable for that, and it could come out of the sales proceeds.
MM (35:56):
So it’s really in your interest you know, when the business is small and, and these things cost a few hundreds of dollars to deal with them now versus when they cost few hundreds of thousands of dollars later. And we see business owners have to put up large escrows large amounts of indemnification to offset certain risks and purchase price, price adjustments all the time because of things that were not caught early enough in the, in the process. So it, it’s really like, do yourself a favor. Save a ton of money later if, if you’re planning to ever exit by getting those things right today. You know, and I think as, I think really if you look at the early stage founder, one of the most important things that they can do is choose the right business partner. And I think that is something that often gets overlooked or, or not really fully appreciated, is that, you know, are you in business with the right person?
MM (36:53):
And does that person have the same vision as you? The same? Are the, are the skill sets complimentary? Are, are they gonna be able to take the business the long term? Do they have the same sort of goals as you, and, and, you know, it may be that they do initially and that changes over time, and that’s okay. I think it’s okay as long as you have the right documents in place. And that’s the third thing, is you wanna have, you know, the, the right business model, the right team, and the right documentation. And that documentation is really where the rubber meets the road, because say there is a change in the partnership, say there is a, a different direction that the founders want to go, and one founder wants to leave and the other founder wants to stay. And, you know, how do you negotiate that split? Because that is a very common that’s a very common scenario. Happens all the time. It’s nothing, it’s not like it’s a bad thing. It’s just you need to plan for that in some ways. Or at least you need to have mechanisms that allow that to naturally evolve without it destroying the business or harming the business. So that’s what we focus on a lot in the initial stages of the business.
AJV (37:59):
So when you talk about documentation, you mean like an operating agreement?
MM (38:03):
Correct. Yeah, the operating agreement. If you’re an LLC, if you are a corporation it would be something like a certificate of incorporation or a charter. Typically, we would organize businesses that want to raise capital. So if you’re a software business or a technology business, or you’re any kind of business that has a really high level of research and design r and d attached to it, you’ll probably, so if it’s capital intensive, you, you may need to raise money. Mm-Hmm.
AJV (39:07):
Why do they like ’em more?
MM (39:09):
Well mostly because they’re corporate in Delaware a lot of the time, and the Delaware corporate code is very investor friendly. Mm. Also for tax purposes, c corporations don’t have an automatic pass through. Mm-Hmm.
MM (40:15):
And you wanna protect the investors. So investors get a little, a little bit more protection in a, in a C corporation, but you can certainly invest in an LLC as well, like LLC operating agreements. Certainly can have investor provisions and they can issue units, common units and preferred units just like a corporation. They can even have you know, many of the same investor rights, hard is harder. And to, to make the same level of anti-dilution protections in an LLC as you get in C corp. And I’ve actually seen that a lot lately, or a couple times lately, where investors have been asking for anti-dilution protection, but it’s an LLC that they’re trying to invest into. And the way the partnership system works, because it is a pass through, it causes all sorts of issues from a tax perspective when you try to adjust for the varying levels of, of the company’s valuation amongst members in an LLC.
MM (41:11):
Interesting. So that’s one issue. And now it, now a lot of people have been asking about s corporations, and I’m not a tax attorney. But you’ll see people form S corporations or you’ll see ’em form LLCs and it’s Fast Corp, excellent LC and then right. And then file, then check the box, file a, it was called an 88 32 form election, which checks the box, and then they’ll file a 25 53, which is an s selection to essentially qualify for better tax treatment on their self-employment. And, and that’s fine if you are doing a consulting business or if you are, you know, just, you know what, what you don’t wanna do is start an operating company file an S selection and then go need to raise capital. Mm-Hmm. Because what you can’t be, if you’re an S corporation, is you can’t be a, you can’t be a business that has multiple classes of stock.
MM (42:07):
That’s one of the impermissible things in an S corp. And the moment you take investor money from investors, they’re going to want usually a preference or some sort of interest rate, and that creates a different class or different economic treatment on that stock. And that can invalidate your s selection. So if, if you’re forming an S corporation solely for the purposes of being a consultant and, and getting some tax efficiency on your, on your on your self-employment that, that’s one thing if you’re forming an S corporation because you want to be a corporation, but want to pass the treatment of an LLC but wanna raise preferred stock, that’s not okay. You’re gonna blow your s selection. So, oh, man, that’s one thing you can do correctly. And I’ve actually seen a business get all the way down to the end 10 years later thinking they’re an S corp and turns out that they had actually blown their s selection a long time ago, and now that’s a big tax bill that the company, the sellers have to come up with at closing in order to make the buyer comfortable enough to buy the business back.
AJV (43:11):
And not only that, it’s a very, make sure you form it correctly in the beginning. So it’s like really, like, you know, that old saying, start with the beg you know, start with the end in mind is
MM (43:20):
Like Yeah, yeah. Begin with the end in mind. Sure.
AJV (43:22):
This is such a great real life tangible business example of, I think a lot of people just rush to get their entity started, right? Mm-Hmm.
MM (44:03):
My, my favorite one is that people will say, I just want to do the simplest thing. I’ll do a 50 50 J, I’ll do a 50 50 LLC. So an LLC with each member has a even share. And, and most people think that’s the most simple way of going forward. It’s actually the hardest way to structure any entity formation because it raises all sorts of issues around voting. And the impasse you, when you, if you don’t have an agreement among the 50 50 members, then you can have a real problem. Not a, not a, not, it’s a, it’s avoidable. It’s fixable. Yeah. But you, it’s, it’s one example where most people think they’re doing the easy thing, but in reality, it’s actually the hardest thing you could possibly do. So it’d be much better to do, just do 50 51 49, please
MM (44:54):
Ah, but people often will say, no, 50 50, we’re just trying to be fair and reasonable, not realizing that they’re causing themselves a whole lot of information of, of, of, of a headache. Because now they have to go out and get a buy, sell clause into their LC agreement. And if they don’t have that, then they find themselves at an impasse where they have to really negotiate amongst themselves how they’re gonna wind down the business or, or, or come over or make a certain decision that might be a, a different change of direction for the company. And, you know, the company needs to have a decision maker. It needs to have someone at the helm and 50 50 LLCs are not always the best for that. So
AJV (45:32):
That’s good. All right. Last question. I know ’cause we’re running out of time, but since you do have a lot of this, there’s been a lot of talk and my circles at least around the, the valuation of companies has like, it’s like an all at, at an all time market low. Whether that’s true or not, I don’t know. ’cause I’m not in the business of buying companies and I’m definitely not trying to sell mine, but can you give us any updates on how are companies being evaluated today? I heard the other day it’s like, you know, what was getting 10, you know, 10 x multiple five years ago is like getting three today. What’s true, what’s not true? And what do we need to know when it comes to getting, you know, a valuation on your company today?
MM (46:15):
Yeah, so I mean, the thing about valuations, good businesses are selling at great multiples. Good
AJV (46:22):
To know.
MM (46:23):
Okay. So that, that has not changed. But, you know, a lot of valuation metrics are based on the appetite of the buyer and what they are looking to do with the business that they’re acquiring. In the healthcare space a lot of companies, private equity companies will go and acquire a, a healthcare practice, a a medical practice, and they’ll pay the initial the, the initial practice will, will get a high multiple, and then as they go and add other practices to that platform they, they will pay lower and lower multiples in, in order to arbitrage or or average out the average multiple paid. And then with hopes of growing the platform over time and then selling that platform to, you know, a higher bidder. By the way, healthcare private equity is also an area where there’s been a lot of change lately and a lot of attraction from the federal regulators.
MM (47:22):
So that’s also another area, but not so relevant maybe to your, to your audience. But you know, that it, it, you know, multiples are a function of the economy. They’re a function of, you know, interest rates. They’re a function of a lot of different socioeconomic and political forces. But ultimately good businesses will sell at the max multiple. You know, and, and, and that’s something that just won’t ever change. If a buyer wants the business bad enough, and if it’s accretive enough to their organization, their revenue you know, their, their own reasons for wanting to acquire the business, you know, they will pay it. Mm-Hmm.
MM (48:28):
You know, and that really is market timing, right?
MM (49:25):
And that’s really where brands come into play, right? Because ultimately a brand, the way that the law looks at a brand is, it’s a trademark, right? Mm-Hmm.
MM (50:15):
Mm-Hmm,
AJV (50:56):
Yeah, and I love that. ’cause It, it’s, it’s keep it simple. It’s like if you have a great business, then likely you would be naturally attracting a great buyer. And I love that. Matt, thank you so much for coming on the show today. So much wisdom, so much information and I love most of all that there’s nothing that you said that should cause anyone to get in a flurry or a panic, but nonetheless, we all need good resources. And this was a great resource for our community today. So thank you so much. Thanks for being on the show. And for all of you guys listening, stay tuned for the recap episode, which will be coming up next. And we will see you next time on the influential personal brand.
Ep 496: Build Your Money Machine with Mel Abraham
RV (00:03):
Anytime we can talk about money and financial freedom and being more rich and abundant and helping you grow your business, it is a powerful conversation. And today is especially going to be that because we have my good friend Mel Abraham on the show. Mel and I have known each other for several years now, and he is one of the most genuine amazing nice individuals that I’ve ever met. And everybody who knows him in real life will say the same thing by trade though, he is a CPA and he is a deep, deep expert on, on the subject of all things money. He is a globally recognized thought leader. He shares the stages with shares the stage with 400 Fortune 500 companies. He speaks at some of the biggest public events in the world. He is friends with a lot of the most influential people in this space, and he understands online business, understands offline business. He’s also a cancer survivor, which was something that he endured like in and around the, the pandemic and went through some of his own financial, you know, kind of issues dealing with that. And he’s just an amazing, amazing, genuine human. So he understands our space and he understands specifically, you know, he’s an expert in, in finance and all things money. So, without further ado, Mel, welcome to the show, buddy.
MA (01:25):
Rory, it is so good to be here. Thank you for having me, man.
RV (01:29):
Man, I’m so excited about your new book. So, building Your Mon Build Your Money Machine, which I love the title, build Your Money Machine. This book is fantastic. It is. It has diagrams and tools and charts and tables. You do such a brilliant job of making it clear and simple, you know just helping people understand money. So I’m excited to talk to you. I I, I wanted to ask you, where did your whole journey start? Like, how did you get into money and like, what, what happened early? I know you, you talk in the book a little bit about some of your earliest, like money memories and how that impacted you and has really like, set the trajectory of your life. So I’d love to hear that.
MA (02:16):
Oh my God, thank you. So, yeah, I look, most of our money lessons are caught not taught. And, and I was no different. I, I remember my, one of my earliest money lessons was was seeing my dad cry for the first time. Now, I’m, I’m a son of an immigrant family. My dad came here at 17 years old with nothing. He came here to go to school and, and he fought to get here and built a life, you know, he was an engineer, you know, aerospace engineer. But in my life, I looked at him as this tower of power and everything. And here he was in tears for the first time that I’d ever seen him in tears. And I didn’t know the specifics. I just knew it had to do with money. It was my mom and him having a conversation.
MA (03:07):
And I hear my dad say, I just feel like I’m letting down and disappointing the people I love. And I, I, and that hit me. And I didn’t realize how much it hit me, but I ended up carrying this idea that if I don’t make enough money, you’re gonna disappoint the people you love. Hmm. And I’m, it, it became this, this chase for me, the, the challenge was obviously I was wrong,
MA (04:02):
And Jeremy, at six years old comes running in and says, daddy, daddy, I drew a picture of you at school today. And so I kneeled down to grab this picture and look at it, and there I am, and blue felt tip pen, a stick figure with two computer screens and a phone in each ear, and the one on the desk ringing. And that was a mirror into my soul. He, he in a moment looked at me and said, dad, you know, you, you may want the profits because it pays the bills, but I don’t want the profits. I just want your presence. And that’s, it was in that moment where I ki I kind of looked at things and said, how, how is it and is it possible for the dream to be an entrepreneur, the dream to, to build and impact lives, to coexist with the gift of being a parent, giving, being, being a dad.
MA (05:01):
Because I knew that no matter what my financial success was, if I screwed up and messed up the parenting part, then I was a, I failed. I failed. Mm-Hmm.
RV (05:46):
Yeah. I love that. Well, so, so let’s talk about that specifically in the context of entrepreneurs, because there’s a part of being an entrepreneur that is like, when, when I think of it financially, there’s like these different buckets, right? So first of all, it’s like I have to make a lot of money. Like I have to generate revenue. That’s a, that’s an important part of being an entrepreneur. Then there is I have to manage expenses and I need to not spend more than I’m making. Then there is whatever past I had, like the debt I came in with to being an entrepreneur in the first place. And so I have to like, resolve that. But then it’s like, I’m also planning, I also have to plan for the future, right? For like retirement. And, and then I have like my personal finances. So if, if I just think about like, the businesses, okay, we gotta make money.
RV (06:43):
We have to spend money wisely. We have to pay off debt that exists. We have to plan for the future, and then we have to like pay our expenses now. And like, it is freaking hard. Like just, just even saying that out loud is overwhelming. It’s going like, yeah, I do feel like I need to get back to work. Like to do those five things really well is incredibly difficult. And then you go, how do I do that in some reasonable amount of hours inside of a week where I can still be a present dad and, you know, mom and friend and not, not work all the time? ’cause It’s scary going, how the heck am I gonna do those five things? So where do you think is the, is the, is most often the first place to focus? So like you look at those buckets, there’s making money, they’re spending money wisely. There’s paying off the past planning for the future and then like, you know, managing our personal, our personal lives. If, if, if, if that’s sort of overwhelming to me, where do I start first or just, you know, in those various areas, what are some things that we can do to kind of get more control Yeah. Financially.
MA (07:53):
So before we get there, I think the first thing that we wanna make sure we have clarity on is our direction. And that’s why everything I think starts with life. What is that life vision? What do we want for the business? What do we, you know, are we trying to, like I look at the stage of, I, I’m at my desire is to impact people as much as possible and have as much reach. My desire isn’t to build this huge organization. And so, so we, we need to be clear that we’re running our race first, because the tendency, and I watched, I watched a dear friend of mine start hiring a bunch of people because everyone else around him was hiring a bunch of people, and he felt it was the thing to do. He was miserable until he skinnied it back down to a small team to do the things that he really wanted to do. And, and so, so I think the very first thing, whether it’s in the personal or the business, is to ask ourselves, what’s my race look like? What’s my finish line look like? Where am I trying to go and why am I trying to get there? Mm-Hmm. Because then we allow that. So that will inform the plan. The vision will inform the plan. The plan will determine the strategy. The strategy will dictate the tactics. And then there.
RV (09:09):
That’s so good. That’s so good too. Because like, if you don’t, if you don’t do that, you literally, you scroll on social media and you see Lamborghinis and Ferrari’s and private jets, and you’re like, oh, my whole life needs to be about this. And then one day you wake up, you go, I don’t even care about that crap. Like, I don’t want five houses, five houses sounds like a fricking nightmare to me. Like all the, all, you know, mowing five yards and cleaning, having five, even if you’re not doing any of it, it’s like managing the contractors. It’s like, what a nightmare. But yet, if you don’t do this deliberately, you get like swallowed up into this current, like this, this mainstream current of like, more is better, bigger is better, nicer house, nicer car, bigger, nicer vacation. And, and you’re like consumed chasing something you literally don’t even want.
MA (10:01):
It’s, it’s so true. Patrick Beda, I saw an interview with him and he made a comment, he said, when we were growing up, and he grew up not far from, from where I grew up. And he says, when we were growing up, we would see a kid with a new bike. And that became our comparison set where we’re looking at new bike, I kind of want the new bike, but now because of social media, the comparison set is the Kardashian’s new jet and starts to create this, this need, this desire. And that that’s the definition of success. But the reality is, is that your definition of success might be a tent in Montana. And, and that’s okay as long as it’s of your own hands, of your own doing. I think that’s one of the biggest lessons that came out of the drawing that Jeremy made was because I had so many people saying, Mel, you have to get work-life balance.
MA (10:54):
But balance is a myth. This idea of a weight on one side, a counterweight on the other side, playing tug of war. And on average you’re balanced. And it’s like what we really needed was harmony. And harmony comes from intent. And I think when we become intentional with our life, with our time and our money, now we can direct it in a focused way to, to achieve the things that we’re trying to achieve. But too often we’re diluted in our, in our focus because we’re getting all, we’re getting barraged with all these messages, and we haven’t taken the time to define really what our lane is and what our race is
RV (11:31):
Gonna look. So when you define it, when you define it, like what, what does that mean? Does it mean like, I need to say exactly how much I money I wanna retire with, I need to describe exactly the kind of house I wanna live in, how many cars I want to have, what kind of college I wanna send my kids to, if I wanna send ’em to college? Like, what are the elements of going, this is what it means to be clear on the race that you’re running.
MA (11:58):
Yeah, so, so I look at it and I say, we’re gonna look at all the domains of life. So we’re not just gonna, so, ’cause it’s, it’s how we wanna live our life that matters. And then we put the price tag on it. So relationships, what do we want our relationships to be like? What do we want our family to look like? Where do we wanna live? What does our career look like? What is our health? So we, we define that and say, okay, what does it take to get there? Now let’s just be really clear. We can get as specific as we want, but we’re not gonna be exact. Because if I had that kind of crystal ball, then I’d be in a totally different business. I don’t have that crystal ball. So I look at things and say, where do I want to be in a decade?
MA (12:41):
Let’s just use a decade to start, because then a decade I can break to a five year milestone to a one year milestone, to 90 day increments, to action steps and projects. And it allows me to look at things through those eyes knowing that life’s gonna change. When, when my son was born, life changed. When I met my wife, life changed and things changed. And we have to revisit it. When my granddaughters were born, things changed. When I got cancer, things changed. So, so what we’re doing is setting a trajectory for a horizon to get us going the right direction and give us the boundaries that we want to operate within. And then as we start to live our life and we get closer to that time, we’ll refine it. And a lot of that refinement is realizing, I actually don’t like that, so I’m gonna put it away and I’m gonna just focus on this.
MA (13:38):
Like you said, I, I don’t own a ton of real estate directly, and part of it is I don’t want that lifestyle. I, the, the thought of having a bunch of properties and to manage it, even with a management company just stresses the hell out of me. I don’t want it. And so we tend to, to not do that. So the first thing is, is this is, let’s just figure out an idea of where we’re going. Let’s put a price tag a an estimated estimated price tag on it. So we kn we have something to go towards. Because the risk is if we don’t do that, we have no idea what the finish line is. And we don’t know how close we are, how far we are, and we have nothing to judge. So I just want to have something there. And every year, every couple years, you’re gonna revisit it and get more precise.
MA (14:28):
Then we can look at it and say, okay, great. Now I have an idea of where I’m going. Let’s look at where I really am. Because once I have those two points, my current reality, my desired future, we know the gap in between. Now we know the work we have to do. Mm-Hmm,
MA (15:19):
We gotta get a bigger shovel. We gotta get more income. And I think one of the biggest things, especially in a personal brand type of environment is that, is to ask ourselves, do I actually value myself? Do I actually own the value with conviction that I bring to the table because, and am I getting paid for it? Because that we grew up in this, the industrial age thinking of time clocks and time sheets and hourly rates and, and, and billable hours and all that stuff. Commoditize everything and, and cheapens it. And that’s the risk we create when we start to think in terms of a math equation, especially if we’re talking about expertise and personal brands and that kind of thing that we have to get away from that math equation. So one of the biggest, so how
RV (16:15):
Would you price it instead of that, right? Like how would you think of it instead of using like the math equation and is there a different way to think about it?
MA (16:24):
I look at, so part of it is, is looking at the, the value of the solutions you create. So for instance, in my world, what I originally started doing was I was A-C-P-C-P-M, still a CPA, I was valuing businesses to buy and sell, but I was also valuing businesses for purposes to fight, you know, tax, tax situations and litigation. Well, someone brings me in to do a valuation for an estate that’s gonna pay an estate tax at 40%, and I have the ability to create a value, you know, to come up with a valuation that supports a reduction of that, that tax by a million dollars. Me sending them a bill for a hundred grand is a drop in the bucket. And so I look at it, I started look at my business and say, I’m gonna, I’m gonna price it based on the solution that I’m providing more so than the hours it takes to do it.
MA (17:29):
Now, in some cases I got burned. In other cases, if you reduced it to an hourly eight rate, I got paid $10,000 an hour. You know, but I’m trying to, because the other thing is, I think it’s important for us to have the conversations with the potential clients. And, and in, in, in the frame of, of value, we don’t talk price without the context of value. It just, it just doesn’t, it doesn’t play well. And in the, the, the risk, I had a, a, one of the top tax attorneys, he, he since passed away in Beverly Hills. He brought me into to meet with a client, have the conversation, see if I was gonna be the one that they would hire. And then when the client says, how much is this gonna cost, I hemmed and hawed and I didn’t. And I, I hesitated.
MA (18:19):
And once the client left that the attorney Elliot looked at me, he says, if you ever do that again, I’ll never bring you another client. He says, you need to understand that you have a specific set of skills and expertise that you bring to the table, and you have to own them. The reason you hemmed and hawed is because, one, you didn’t own it. Two, you believe that it is your job to justify your price and your value to the client. He says, no, it’s your job to own your value. Put it on the table and sit there quietly. And the client is the client’s job to deal with it. And either they will or they won’t and, and leave it. Leave it that way. And so all of my pricing, other than government contracts, which required an hourly rate that I did all of my pricing was, was project pricing based upon what I saw the value of the solution was. And either they, they decided to hire me or they didn’t, and I was okay with it.
RV (19:16):
Mm-Hmm.
MA (19:23):
Yeah. And then, you know, and with, you know, post-cancer and all that stuff, you start to value time and, and, and your life. So I start looking at things and saying, how much of my life force is this gonna take away from me? Do I really want to get on the plane? Do I really want to do that? So, so I start to price things out saying, that makes it worthwhile for me. Now, is there a math equation behind it? Likely not. It’s, it’s me sitting back saying, I’m, I’m okay, this is the value of what, what I, what I can create for you and I’m willing to, to, to, to own it.
RV (19:59):
What if it’s not an empirical thing, right? Like it’s one thing to go, I can save you X percent on your taxes, or I can help you grow your revenue. You know, I can help you double your revenue, but what if it’s more you know, I can say, help you save your marriage or, you know, or like, I can help you get in better shape. I can, I can, it, it, it’s more per I can restore your relationship with your kids. Yeah. I, I get, you know, some of these like non non empirical types of scenarios. Is there a way to still do that, do you think? Or do you, is it, does it only work in certain environments?
MA (20:37):
You know, it’s, it’s harder to do it in there because it’s, it’s, it’s not as easy to quantify in, in that perspective. But I look at it and I go, the first doctor I went and saw for my, when they, they found the tumor was very flippant when we went in, he says, ah, it’s my bread and butter. And he just kind of, and, but he sat on the, on the original CT scan for 11 days. And I thought, and now he says, I need you in surgery right now. And I said, how is it that now it’s an emergency, but you sat on the CT scan for 11 days and I, so we made calls to different doctors and this, this one doctor came up three times and called his office sitting in the parking lot of the original doctor before we left. We called this doctor’s office. He says, we have an opening tomorrow morning, 9:00 AM do you wanna come in? And I said, yes. I didn’t ask the price,
MA (21:32):
I didn’t care. Now I was for, I’m fortunately in a financial position to not worry about it. But, but the solution was because I looked at it and go, this could be the death of me. You know, this could mean losing my life. And so I don’t know how to put a price tag on that. And so I didn’t ask the price, I didn’t look at it from that perspective. I just said, give me the best and I’ll figure out a way to make this work. Because the pain of losing life, not being here to live with my wife and my kids and the grandkids and all that stuff was too great. And so there was still a, a transactional analysis, even though it wasn’t monetary. It was, it was, it was still something. I looked at it and said, I, I can’t put a price on it other than the fact that I wanna be here.
RV (22:26):
Mm-Hmm.
RV (23:30):
It’s like, I’m, for my business to work, typically I have to be all in on the business. And it, it, it’s like having a baby, right? Especially the first five years. It’s like, it consumes all of your attention. So how should we, as entrepreneurs be thinking about retirement and, and are there any sort of retirement strategies specific to personal brands that you think that, that really lend themselves well to like experts, right? Yeah. Speakers, authors, coaches, financial advisors accountants, doctors, lawyers, like professional service providers, you know, people like that, direct sales, et cetera.
MA (24:38):
All right. I thought he would, I thought he wouldn’t bark, but
RV (24:41):
It’s all good. It’s all good. All good. We’ll edit it out. I made a note.
MA (24:47):
So this is a, this is a really important question to, to look at and to answer. The first thing that I, I’d like everyone to understand is that wealth creation is a muscle group. It’s, it’s a, it’s a behavior. Our ability to build that wealth is more about our, our actions and behaviors than it is about our money. So I’m not as concerned at the beginning, especially when you’re first starting out with how much you’re putting away. What I am concerned about is that we’re getting into the habit of putting something away. So, so no matter who or where you are, I just want you to put a little bit away and we’ll talk about where in a moment. But I, but I want you exercising the muscle. And so that’s, that’s one piece of it. The second, and I hear this all the time with entrepreneurs saying, I can make more money if I just reinvest in my business.
MA (25:42):
Mm-Hmm.
MA (26:46):
And so, so, but we set, we tend to just look at it and say, I can make more in the business by putting all my money back in the business. And the answer’s yes, as long as you can run the business and it can continue to run. But if that, if either one of those is not true, then you would’ve been better served to have a little bit put aside somewhere else to give you some cushion. And so that’s, that’s the, the foundational just philosophy behind it. I also look at things and say, I wanna build safety first, growth second. So my job is to keep, keep people safe. The way you keep ’em safe is, is to, to have some diversification, but also keep simplicity in it. You know, you mentioned all kinds of things, crypto and real estate and all that stuff. And you’re right, you’re trying to run a business.
MA (27:39):
You can’t learn about all that other stuff. And if you don’t have a passion for it, it’s gonna be hard to learn about it. So keep it simple. If all I had was 50,000, $10,000 to invest, you’re not going to buy a piece of real estate. At least you shouldn’t. Because again, we come back to risk. I can ba buy one property. If I have a bad tenant, a tenant that doesn’t pay someone I have to evict long-term, vacancy, bad repairs, all those things. I can’t carry it because I got into it and I don’t have safety first, growth second. And so I tell people when you first start out, let’s just keep it easy. I want you to put it in a diversified ETF or index fund. Buy 500 companies, 3000 companies. Make it easy. We know long term, 94% of the time in over 10 years or more, that that market’s gonna go up.
MA (28:38):
We’ll make eight to 10% in it. You have diversification, you have liquidity, and you’re in the game and you’re doing it simply. And if you’re not sure what to go into, you go into either an s and p 500 fund, a total stock market index fund, or you just turn around and do something called a target target date index fund. Say you don’t need the money for 30 years. You pick a 2055 fund with Vanguard or something and, and you just park it there and let it roll. There’s no, there’s not a lot of thought, there’s not a lot of analysis, there isn’t a lot of management, there isn’t a lot of fees, there isn’t a lot of expenses, but you’re in the game and the money’s starting to work for you. But it has to be long-term money to do it that way. And so that’s, and
RV (29:24):
That you can park that it started inside of an IRA, right?
MA (29:27):
Yeah. So I was just gonna go there so you can, you can park it inside of an IIRA. Now in the book, I talk about the wealth priority ladder, and I literally break down where you put each dollar, depending on where you are in that ladder. And, and so, so one of the things that we might do is early on, early on, if you’re not making a lot of income, we might have you put it into a Roth IRA first, because that’s gonna grow 100% tax free forever. You know, so, so early on, I wanna take the, the, the, the tax advantaged kinds of things, especially if I’m a low income bracket, low tax bracket. The tax deduction doesn’t mean a lot this year. Put it in, I’ve got a kid, 16 and a half year old kid who joined one of my programs. We had a conversation, 17 years old.
MA (30:23):
He says, he got, I got a job, what do I do? I said, open a Roth. I said, great. So three weeks ago we’re on a call and he says, I funded my Roth. I said, he says, I don’t know how to invest it, what do I do? I said, how much do you fund it with? I said, you’re still 17? He says, no, I just turned 18. So he’s 18 years old. He funded a Roth. And, and so I’m thinking he’s 18 years old. What did you put in it? 500 bucks, a thousand? And I said, how much you put in? He says, well, I fully funded 2023 and I already funded 2024. I go, hold on a second. You’re 18. You’re telling me you put 6,500 in for 2023 and 7,000 already for 2024? And he said, yeah, he says it helps because I’m living at home. But here’s what happens. If he just put it in an s and p 500 fund, let’s just say it grows at 8%, it will go up 107 times before he, before he ever get, you know, is at, at retirement age. That means that he’ll have $1.2 million or more without doing a thing. It’s in a Roth. He put 13,000 in, he gets 1.2 million out. He never pays a diamond tax.
MA (31:35):
And, and so at the very beginning, if I have low income and I’m eligible, ’cause there’s income limits for Roth, I’m probably gonna tell you to put it in a Roth. Take the tax advantage, have it tax free down the road, then you’re not not worried about it. Then as the income grows and we do, we have more income in the business, we might put a solo 401k in to get more because the Roth is limited to 7,000 bucks. Now but if I put a solo 401k in, I can put 23,000 and if I put a profit sharing piece to it, I can put up to 69,000 or so in there and more if I’m over age 50. So the, there is a, just like a recipe, you need to know the ingredients, the amount of the ingredients, and the timing in which to do it. So there is a hierarchy that I break down that literally says, if you’re here, this is what you do. If you’re here, this is what you do every step of the way. Because every dollar that comes into our life must have a job description before we earn it. If we want it to do the things intentionally, like we talked about the way to, to get us to the goal, we want
RV (32:45):
IEA budget and a plan or just a plan for that dollar. It’s a plan where, where it’s going. Yeah. A, a, a plan. Well, so that is, that’s why you need this book. You also building your money, build your money machine. And like I told you, like Mel has a knack for making it simple, breaking it down, the visuals, the ladder, the, this kind of stuff is super duper helpful and straightforward. So where should we, where do we want people go, Mel, to buy copy of the book and connect up with you?
MA (33:15):
I’ll go to your money machine book.com and you can, you can, you’ll see the, the links there to different booksellers in the uk in Australia, Canada, us You can buy the book, come back, give, give us the receipt and we’ll, I’ll give you some, some other wealth resources and gifts to help accelerate your path to financial freedom. And some additional trainings around, around that and resources. So, so yeah, that’s, that’s where they do
RV (33:44):
It. I love it. Your money Machine book.com. Mel is also a brand builders group client. So if even if you don’t wanna buy the book, you should go to your money machine book.com to see how he’s got his page structured and he’s given away some killer incentives for pre-ordering his book which are super duper valuable. And Mel, I’m so grateful for you, man. I, I, I’m grateful for your friendship and just for your partnership and, and letting us speak a little bit into your life and you speaking into ours today. Brother. We’re praying for you and your family and all the clients you help and, and we just wish you all the best.
MA (34:19):
I appreciate you, my friend. It is, it has been a journey and it’s good to have you on, on the journey with me.
RV (34:24):
Thanks, buddy.