Ep 428: Podcasting- Behind the Scenes Edition with Carli Van Heerden

AJV (00:00):
Hey, hey everybody, and welcome to another episode of the influential Personal brand, AJ Vaden here. And today is super awesome and exciting because we’re gonna talk about podcasting on the podcast. One of the things I was just sharing with our awesome guest, Carly who I’ll introduce in just a second, is there are probably within our community the, probably one of the most consistent requests that we’ve been getting here lately is how do you know when you should do a podcast? Or, Hey, I’ve been thinking about doing a podcast. How do I get started? Or, Hey, I have a podcast and now it’s taking off, but it’s a lot of work for me to keep up with. Or, Hey, I have this podcast and it’s not taking off , I dunno what to do about it. And so we decided to just have an awesome conversation with one of our brand implementation partners.
AJV (00:54):
We edit podcasts who we have used for the, since the beginning of this podcast, but this is our second podcast with We Edit podcast. We actually use them in our former podcast, but I don’t know, Carly might know more than me how many episodes you guys have produced for us thus far. But we are five, five years and some change in well over a hundred episodes. And so I just thought what a great way to both highlight what we’ve been able to do through the lens of podcasting. And it’s been such a gift for us. But also talk about it with the person who’s actually helping us behind the scenes bring this to life and make this a reality. So if you’re someone who is a podcaster who wants to be a podcaster or who just likes listening to podcasts, this is a great episode for you today.
AJV (01:46):
So stick around if you want to learn about the world of podcasting and how to make it work for you. Now let me introduce you to Carly, who is the founder and c e o of We Edit podcast. We were just talking about this. She’s also a full-time mama which I personally relate to and I love that. But we edit Podcast is a full service podcast production agency. You guys have been around since 2015. I’m positively sure we’ve been using you since you started in business . It’s been a long time. But you guys work with anyone from podcasts made up from Fortune 100 companies to celebrities, entrepreneurs, small business owners, authors, speakers, thought leaders, and everyone in between. And so, well, I guess without further ado, Carly, welcome to the show.
CVH (02:34):
Oh, thanks aj. It’s such a pleasure to be here and I’m excited for this conversation. ’cause You know, if I’m not doing something about podcasting, then what am I doing? ?
AJV (02:44):
I’m gonna, I love, I love this conversation too because, you know, right before I hit record I had said, Hey, I’d really love for you to tell everyone, like, how’d you get into this? Why did you get into this? Because I mean, I know podcasts are wickedly important today in terms of just, I mean, I think it’s more than 51% of Americans say that they listen to a podcast almost on a daily basis. But when you started this in 2015, I don’t imagine that was the case. I know it’s grown exponentially since then. So why did you get into this?
CVH (03:18):
My gosh. So I feel like we should backtrack in time for this one. It’s honestly such a, such a memory lane thing, but you know, I had been freshly graduated on university with my Bachelor’s of Commerce in my pocket. Here I go. I had actually moved across to South Africa to plan a wedding. And then after that all happened, we decided to do an impromptu travel through Southeast Asia for our honeymoon slash I don’t really know what we’re up to, just traveling around. And my husband had launched his podcast that year prior to that. And so he was spending so much time, obviously interviewing guests, going through the process and then sitting there editing his, his show. And I’m like, man, we could be doing something else about right about now. Like, is there so that he somebody that can help you with and his, and he’s like, you know, there’s probably some freelancers doing editing work and all this stuff that he, oh, some people that he know, but there, there’s not really like a company that you can just submit click and wait for the whole thing to happen. And I was like, Hey, here’s an idea. You know, why don’t we do something like that? Why don’t we just step into this world of helping people with their podcasts? And voila, there it was. We had a podcast was Born . I love that from just that little idea.
AJV (04:37):
You know what the, I love stories like that because it starts with your own need. Exactly. It’s like, if I can solve this, you know, need for myself solve this problem for myself, then surely I can solve it for someone else. And I love it when stories start like that because it was, it’s organic and it’s like, we got a problem, let’s fix it and then let’s help other people fix it too.
CVH (04:58):
Exactly. That’s how it goes. .
AJV (05:00):
And now eight years in oh
CVH (05:03):
My gosh, it’s grown to something I couldn’t even have imagined back then, right?
AJV (05:08):
I mean, I mean, it’s pretty awesome and I, and I just know that you guys are such a great partner for us and you guys do such a great job. And so I’m really excited to hear some of your thoughts behind the scenes of podcasting, right? Because that most people listen to the finished product, right? Like everyone listening right now, you’re getting, you’re gonna be listening to the finished product, but Carly and I are here sitting at the beginning of the product and there’s this whole middle part that nobody sees between this raw recording and then what actually gets published. And so I would love to talk about all the things that happen in between that people don’t realize and then very quickly get overwhelmed with. And this passion idea they had all of a sudden turns into a really big burden. So here’s my first question for you, . What would you say is the biggest obstacle that individuals face when, you know, not even starting, but like, just what do they face when it comes to actually getting their podcast out into the world?
CVH (06:11):
So a lot of times, like I even think to back to myself, back then, I had no knowledge about editing a podcast. Like what did I know about any of that technical stuff? It’s quite technical if you wanna go into it. I mean, there’s a lot of options to do raw podcasts and just put out whatever you record. But if you want that finished, polished look and sound, then you’re gonna have to invest in knowing what it takes to edit. And so people just get thrown off of that and they’re like, oh, I don’t even know how to do that, so I’m not even gonna get started. I mean, nevermind this latest age of video podcasting. How do I even set up a camera that isn’t a FaceTime or a, you know, this and that? What do I plug in which headphones? Which this. So you can come become very overwhelmed initially with that, that initial start. You know, like, where do I even start? Because sometimes like some people think, oh, it’s gonna be about, I don’t know what to talk about. No, that’s not true. A lot of people have their why, they know what they’re gonna say. It’s just like, now how do I connect that to essentially a podcast, you know, in the end. Mm-Hmm.
AJV (07:17):
. Yeah. So that’s a great question. So what would you say are the most important technical pieces or you know, equipment that people need to have at the very most basic level to go, if you really wanna do this so people actually listen to it, you should probably invest in blink blank. Like, what is that?
CVH (07:39):
So what I suggest is go into your listener’s shoes, what do they want to hear? Do they want to hear you like in a microphone doing a weird sounding podcast? No, they want to hear you loud and clear. They are not there to try and decipher what you’re saying. So invest in a microphone. I mean, the barrier to entry for podcasts is so low. You don’t need to invest in a huge setup or, you know, full scale production. There’s other options available to you. Like you can rent a studio. You can ask somebody who’s already had a setup, Hey, can you show me the ropes? Can you show me what works for you? What doesn’t? And then you can kind of, I mean, if you look online right now, the blog post out there about how to start a podcast is you, it’s like the number is infinite right now.
CVH (08:34):
So you can find that information so easily and it, the people go through it, they step by step, like walk you through each microphone option, each headphone option, the recording software that you can use. You know, everything that you can find out is out there. So you can do some research, find out what works for your budget, what works for your commitment and time and everything, and what kind of quality do you want. Do you want something that’s a live show and you’re sitting with somebody in a room chatting? Sure. Go for that option and just kind of find out what is, what is it that you wanna give your listeners and then go from there.
AJV (09:10):
Hmm. I love that because it really is so varied in terms of how advanced and you know, how you know all in show production value. Do you wanna go versus, Hey, I’m, I’m just getting started. I, I hope that my parents listen I don’t know about anybody else, right? There’s a lot of in between there. Do you have a favorite microphone that you’re like, man, this is just a go-to.
CVH (09:35):
I’m loving this one .
AJV (09:36):
Yeah. Which one is that? This is
CVH (09:38):
The sure. SMM seven B, you get the
AJV (09:42):
Sure M S seven B,
CVH (09:44):
SMM seven B
AJV (09:45):
S
CVH (09:47):
You get a smaller one too. That’s a, a lower price point, which is also the sure one, which is great. But there’s a ton of new ones always coming out right now. Like you can, I mean you can even use your headphones from your AirPods or whatever you want to if you aren’t ready to commit to something. But honestly, like the quality just makes a huge difference. And then when you do choose something like an editor or someone who can help produce your podcast, it’s much easier on their side too. ’cause They can’t out of thin air create great quality audio, but they can work with your audio when it’s got a base level standard that is good and make it polished. Right. So yeah, this one is great. .
AJV (10:29):
Oh yeah, I think it’s, that’s important because I think one of the initial tips that we got when we first started our podcast and our first podcast, I don’t even know when we started. It was a long time ago, maybe 2008, nine, 10, I don’t know. It was a long time ago. And we did not invest into good equipment for a long time until finally someone said to us, you know, we really love the content, but it’s so miserable to listen to. And I was like, what is, are you saying my voice is miserable? And they were like, no. Like it, the, the audio goes up and down and half the time it sounds like you’re in an echo chamber. And it wasn’t until that we actually sat down, which is pro tip number one, listen to your own podcast. We sat down and listened and we’re like, oh my gosh, this is what people have been listening to. This is horrible. And so it’s like, if you haven’t listened to your own podcast, go listen to your own podcast and you’ll know in a gif what you need to make quick adjustments for. And 95% of the time I bet it’s audio. I bet it’s audio. And if you have good audio to your point, Carly, it’s easier for the editors behind the scenes to make it even better.
CVH (11:43):
Exactly. Just how you said it right there, .
AJV (11:46):
Yeah. Well, and it’s true. It’s like I think about the best podcast that I listen to and it sounds, sounds like it’s a high production show even though I know it’s them in their home office with a microphone, right? But it sounds so good and it’s so easy to listen to and that, you know, regardless of how many people are, you know, watching the audio or the video versions, most people are still listening to the audio most of the time. And so really ramping up on the audio production makes a big difference. So, okay, here’s my next question ’cause I have a long list. I know I sent you , we’re not gonna have time to get to all these, but here we go. What would you say is the first step for that person who is going, I’ve always wanted to start one, I just haven’t known what the first step is. What would you say is the first step to creating and launching a podcast?
CVH (12:37):
What’s interesting, I was chatting to someone the other day about their process of starting their podcast and they said, you know what? I actually sat down and decided what is gonna be, what is my content strategy basically for my podcast? And you decide on the form, is it gonna be interview style? Are you gonna do a solo podcast? Are you gonna do live events? You know, so when you hone on that side of things, then you can kind of get a direction, okay, so if I’m gonna do guests now I have to email all these guests, find somebody to come on my show, book it all in. So it’s like a, it’s a whole process and you have to plan it on calendars not only yours, right? Because they’re not gonna be like, oh, I’m gonna start interviewing today. Oh sure I’m available. No, they’re booking out too.
CVH (13:21):
So you have to put that all into your planning. And then the interesting thing about that is like trying to find out when you’re gonna launch, which episode is it gonna coincide with that guest’s book launch or something to help them out? How can you make it more inviting for them to say, Hey, yes, that sounds like a great time for me to come on. But that’s the thing. Lot of us have our why we are already doing it in our business. Like for me, I’m already working in the podcast industry, so for me launching a podcast, I know what my why is I wanna teach podcasters or help them or give them tools. Okay, great, that’s what I’ve got, but how am I gonna convey that? What am I gonna do to get my message across in the most effective way? Mm-Hmm.
CVH (14:03):
So I would say you just have to put that type of planning into your content to begin with before you, you know, go off like, you know, on a whim. Like, I’m just gonna try out anything. That’s not to say you can’t experiment with your podcast format. Sure, be adaptable, be open to change, but have some kind of plan so that when you’re starting out, even if you start with step one, your step three might change, but hey, you had a step three to begin with so you have somewhere to aim to when you’re starting your podcast.
AJV (14:34):
Yeah, I think that’s really a wise sage advice because otherwise we’re just stuck in, you know, analysis paralysis. It’s like, oh, there’s all these different options. What should I do? And it’s like, no, just pick one. You can change it later, but just pick one. Since you listen to, or at least your team listens to a ton of these as you’re editing, do you see that there is a very common format that most people are still doing today?
CVH (15:02):
Yeah, I mean it depends on how often they’re publishing their episodes. So if they’re doing like a few a week, then there’s quite a variety in there. Like a sample for you guys, you have the interview and then you have your recap. So that makes for great content for you to put out. But if you’re not somebody who’s doing a recap or multiple episodes in a week, then you kind of have one format. You’re sticking to it, it’s working for you and that’s the way that you go. But yeah, people love guest interviews ’cause it’s bringing the experts on. It’s getting down to the nitty gritty of your topic at hand. And it helps to create variety because a lot of people are like, oh my gosh, I can’t think about committing two a hundred episodes. What am I gonna talk about for a hundred episodes about the same topic? Voila, guests enter. And guess that is how you do it because every guest that you bring on expert that you bring on, or even like everyday human in the street that you bring on about this topic, we’ll have a unique point of view and then you can find a way to create variety for your content.
AJV (16:12):
Yeah. Like even to that. And I’m glad, I’m actually really glad you brought that up because we decided in the very beginning that we were gonna do our full interview episodes and then we would do like our version of like a Cliff Notes episode that was like much shorter. But I will tell you consistently, and we track this pretty diligently, and this potentially is maybe just a tiniest bit of an exaggeration, but I bet we still get 10 times the downloads on our interview format than we do on our solo recaps. So then we’ve had this debate internally, well then why are we still doing them? And , we have basically decided like that is our form of content repurposing, right?
AJV (16:57):
So we may not be getting a ton of downloads on the recap episodes, but it’s giving us a whole new set of well produced video and audio content that we can then repurpose for blog and social media content. And it’s original and it’s now you have this amazing one hour interview that you can recap into a 10 to 15 minute recap where you’re not having to come up with all due content topics all the time that you’re pulling from these expert interviews. And it’s allowing us to take our spin, our take on it. And it’s a way of not necessarily are we expecting to grow the podcast with these recaps at this point. It’s pretty much proven we’re not going to be doing that. But it has been an amazing tool to give us fresh, new ideas and takes and twists on things to have fresh content that we can then repurpose for blogs, vlogs, social media and other things.
AJV (17:56):
And so I would just second, I was curious, it’s at least on our show anyway, the solo episodes so far underperform compared to the interview format. And I would even say our video show, our YouTube show version versus just the normal audio doesn’t even compare it’s audio downloads. 10 x and interview format. That’s the by far the runaway winner and our tiny little micro example. So it back to that’s like people love the conversation format as you’re beginning into those stages. Now I also have this question and this is totally your opinion and you don’t need any facts behind it. But since this is your world and it has been your world for a really long time, I would love to know what do you think makes a great podcast?
CVH (18:52):
Oh my gosh. Well, I know what the result is. Like if the result is an engaged, I’m not even gonna say audience, but community around your podcast that is like the result that you want. But honestly what you’re saying there, the the reason that your interviews are performing so well is because you’re blending your audience with their audience, your guest audience. So then it’s like, like you’re saying 10 xing your community around that episode. So how can it not be more valuable in the end? Yeah, to me, like, because I’ve seen so many different podcasts and like obviously listened to a ton and I’m venturing into the world of being on more of them. Some of the things that catch me in a podcast is the vulnerability and realness. Like if you are super staged and everything is perfect to a matter you kind of lose that little tug on the heart almost for me.
CVH (19:55):
So for me, when I listen my personal podcast, things that I find the most valuable and the most amazing podcast is like, there’s something that really resonates with me on a personal front. Like whether it’s to do with your mom’s, like the way that your mom taught you how to do this and that, and somebody mentions it about their mom or something that it’s like, oh my gosh. Or whether it’s like with my kids or something to do with like, everyday life or like a, a personal failure in my business or something that I can totally relate to on a raw like vulnerable level. It’s like, that’s gold. ’cause Not a lot of people are open to being vulnerable on podcasts because you wanna be like super mm-hmm. , you know, don’t make a mistake, don’t don’t say something inappropriate or Yeah. So that’s what I go for in podcasts.
AJV (20:43):
Yeah. And I think that’s, it’s probably true across the board at some level because if you really think about it, it’s like we’re not in, most people are not in this anymore just for the information. You can get information in a multitude of ways. I mean, I mean, think about all the ways it’s like, there are blogs out of the wazoo. There’s, I don’t even know how many podcasts, but a lot, there’s YouTube shows now, there’s TikTok, there’s Instagram, there’s whatever this new one is. Threads can’t even keep up . But there are so many content mediums. It’s, it’s not so much that people are going there for the information, it’s the way that you deliver the information. It’s your take on it. It’s with your personality, your spin, your uniqueness, your story, your experiences. And if you’re willing to share that part of you the vulnerable part, that is what, that is what catches
CVH (21:37):
Yeah, yeah, totally. That and the thing is like, it could be, it could be vulnerability too, but it could be comedy like some of the comedy podcasts out there. Like, they become so, like they draw me in. ’cause Sometimes I’m just like, man, I need a good laugh. And obviously people have a habit of scrolling social media for those things, me included, right? Because you’re watching all these funny reels and things. But if you’ve listened to comedy or like comedians on podcasts, it is hilarious. And it just takes you right out of where you are into like their world of comedy. And it’s just, you could be watching a show if you close your eyes, you know, that’s where you can imagine you are. So yeah, you’re right. It just connecting on that level of their experience and the way they deliver it.
AJV (22:21):
Yeah. So why, why do you think podcasts have taken off the way that they have?
CVH (22:28):
Oh my gosh. Because I, like, honestly, podcasts has been around so long, and to answer your question about how many podcasts the latest was, there’s almost 5 million out there. And in this last week, there’s like 200,000 new episodes that were launched and oh yeah, the stats are insane. But don’t let that scare you off . ’cause Honestly, everybody’s got their little, little corner of the world that, that they can talk about. But I think it’s become so powerful because people are not, not only doing it just because, Hey, I should start a podcast. This is what I should be doing. It’s ’cause they want to, they’re like marrying it with what they’re already doing, either in their life or their business or the way that they know that they love to influence people. So it’s become like an extension of who they are already. So yeah, I find that that’s, that’s one of the main reasons people are getting on the mic and just doing what they love. And I mean, for us too, as the host, right, it’s a thrill to meet with other people who, and learn about them because like we’re, we wanna learn too. That’s, that’s why we’re here. We’re here, we’re curious, we wanna learn something new. And when we get in touch and like one-on-one with these experts, it’s, yeah, it’s like a free learning little experience and experience. You’re willing to put in the work and the commitment. That’s what you’re gonna get out of it.
AJV (23:49):
Yeah, I love that. And I tell people all the time that there’s this hidden benefit, this hidden perk of getting to be the host of a podcast, which is Free Education , it’s free, it’s pre-education and it’s one of the best things. Not to mention it’s an amazing introduction tool, but the amount of learning that I get to participate in as in a host, it’s like, it’s phenomenal and it’s free. It’s like for, if for no other reason, it’s like I will always have a podcast because it is a great forum and format to just talk about the topics that you’re already interested in as a human being. Because if you’re interested in them, it’s likely at least a few more people on planet Earth are also interested in them. And so it’s like, it’s great education and it’s free and it’s at your fingertips, you know, like why wouldn’t we take advantage of that? So, okay. So I have three more questions for you before we run outta time. And I, I promise I’m watching the clock, but you, you and your team how many podcasts do you guys think you edit on a a weekly basis? Weekly
CVH (25:00):
Basis? Oh my gosh. On a weekly, oh, there are hundreds of, of episodes that we go through. I mean, from the start it’s been like 3,500 plus, you know, and we’ve worked with so many different kinds of podcasters, from individual ones to big companies, to even people who are white labeling our service. So I mean, then those people just push the episodes through because it’s all of their clients that coming our way too. But yeah, I mean, I cannot tell you how many I’ve listened to and how many show notes I’ve written Uhhuh back in the day when I was stomping the ground doing all the things . But it was awesome because like I’m learn, I learned so much and I mean, even my team, I encourage them like, Hey, take note of everything that you’re listening to because it can help you in your personal life. Like all these people that you get introduced to, like on the sidelines. It’s, yeah, it’s incredible.
AJV (25:55):
Yeah. So knowing that I imagine through the years and through these thousands of podcasts that you’ve edited that there are a, a couple of things that you see people do consistently well and some probably some things that you see people consistently not do so well. So if you could share with us what are some tips of the trade to ensure that you have a great episode and then what are some of those avoidable mistakes that we should be on the lookout for? So
CVH (26:29):
One of my main things is if you are gonna start a podcast, be a host, learn how to be a host. And that means listening. So learn how to listen. ’cause You, it’s great if you are chiming in when the conversation happens. But I’ve, I’ve had a lot of people who as the host, they’re interrupting their guest the whole time. So then on our audio side of things, that’s jumping into their audio, sometimes it goes over what your guest is trying to say. I know from my transcriptionist, they always tell me it’s in Anau audible. I can’t hear what they’re saying ’cause somebody’s interrupted them. So find a way to be a host and, and learn how to be a host with from listening perspective. Number one, from the second thing, if you have something that comes to mind, write it down. Have your little notepad and your pen and write something down if you think about it.
CVH (27:21):
And when your guest is done saying their thought, then you bring it up. Because if you interrupt them halfway through, your listener might not have been thinking the same thought that you are thinking about. So you then you’re interrupting the listener as well as your guest. So instead find a way to make it cohesive in that way. And then the third way I say is listen to other hosts. Find people that you think are, man, they ask such incredible questions or Wow, I just love how they transitioned from that answer to their feedback and in seamlessly into a question like, how are they doing this? You know? And some of the most like amazing g hosts like that are actually speakers, right? They’re, they’re speakers on stages, so they know these things. They ha just have a way of phrasing things or reflecting it back to their guest and that the listener learns even more just from you being such a great host. So honestly, my main things are those like find a way to be a great host, .
AJV (28:21):
I, you know, that’s so interesting to hear. ’cause I think a lot of people say, make sure you’re a good listener, but in context of this particular thing, you also have to think about, yeah, you need to be a good listener. ’cause If you’re cutting off your guests or talking over them or switching, it makes it really hard for the production component of this to turn out well, or the show notes feel discombobulated ’cause you were bouncing around. I had never thought about it that way. And so following that whole concept of being a great listener, not interrupting, writing it down actually helps you have a better produced show. Not just a better interview experience, but also, I, I didn’t even think about how complicated that would be if you’re like, oh, hold that thought. You just said something and then you’re like, okay, now continue. Right? , it might work in the conversation, but in terms of translating that to the listener and in show notes, I can see how that could be pretty chaotic.
CVH (29:24):
Yeah, exactly. And it’s a lot, I mean, sometimes it is a conversation, like if you have two hosts, obviously you’re gonna banter back and forth. It’s laughter. It’s like, not shouting, but some people are like, ah, my gosh. You know, yelling over each other. And that’s, that’s fun because that’s not really, you know, that’s not interrupting somebody who’s trying to communicate with your listeners. It’s, yeah, it’s a banter and you expect it. That’s part of the show. So, but that’s part of knowing who you are as a host too, right? If that is what your format is, go for it. If not, hang back, listen and observe and think these things through. But yeah,
AJV (30:02):
Those things, I think a lot of it comes back to listen to your own show.
CVH (30:06):
Hey, you said it first. .
AJV (30:08):
Yeah, listen to your own show. You’ll pr probably be your own worst critic. You would be the hardest coach on yourself, but listen to your own show. That’s a really important part of, you know, I think about it as a speaker, you know, we are like, one of the biggest things that we always did is like we forced ourselves to watch our footage. We would watch our footage and then we would watch it on rewind. We would watch it on fast forward. We would listen to it while not watching it, and then we would watch it on mute. And so it’s like we’re looking for all these different things. But we can do the same thing with our own show. It’s like you need to be a participant of the show. You need to know what it’s like to be the listener in order to be a really good host. And then I loved your comment too of like, what are the other hosts out there that you love? It’s like, man, I love the way that they’re a good host and the way they transition and that comes from studying your craft, is you gotta find other people that you think are doing a phenomenal job and picking up those tips. And so here’s my question. Who is some of your favorite hosts? Who would you say that you just think are crashing it in the podcast field?
CVH (31:15):
Oh my gosh. The last one that I was started, like just recently listening to was Natalie, Natalie Frank on the independent business podcast. She’s just, I don’t know, she just hits it. It sounds like she doesn’t skip a beat when she is replying to her guest. She’s converting it into a question. And I’m just like burning through those episodes, preparing for my own podcast, which has just been so inspiring. But yeah. And then some of the other ones, oh, I just interviewed Ashley Menzies, Baba Babatunde, and her voice is so calm and like she just really gets you centered and like, just relax. And I’m like, okay, yeah, that’s a good quality of a host because you need to, you know, don’t sound nervous and uptight about things. You need to be calm and collective as well to give your listener like an even better experience.
CVH (32:07):
So yeah, I’m just like soaking up everybody. Like I’m listening to the guests that they have on. Sure. But I’m out there to study the host to really get into like, in their shoes, like how are they doing this? Like what are their, what are their methods? And just listening to everybody. And obviously you guys, your conversations are so natural and you just like, yeah, I’m just like before I know it, I forgot that I was listening because I wanted to see your style. I’m like listening ’cause I’m drawn into the conversation, people into the conversation. Oh yeah. So I’m learning a lot.
AJV (32:43):
I love that. And you know, it’s, I think it comes back to, I think often, not just in the podcast world, in business, we forget to study, just to study. We forget that we gotta hone in in our craft. We get such in the rhythm of doing our thing that it’s like, oh yeah there’s probably ways we can improve. And two best ways you can do that are listen to yourself and listen to others. That is such a good refreshing reminder for me today of like, I can’t remember the last time I listened to one of my own episodes, . I’m like, oh, to do item go listen to my episodes. But that’s, it’s a really important thing. But then also it’s not just listening to other podcasts because you enjoy the content. It’s listening for the specific components of what am I trying to learn? What am I trying to gain here? Trying to figure out better transitions or better openings and better closes and listening with a purpose. Yeah. And those are such, such good tips. And then my other question is, what is one piece of advice that you would give to someone who wants to launch a podcast?
CVH (33:55):
Podcast? So this is actually something that I was struggling with personally is that whole thing of imposter syndrome. Like what makes me qualified to be here? And you might ask that as a newbie podcaster, you know, somebody who’s starting out but think is all of us have something to offer? The main thing is you have to figure out what it is, package it, and then put it out there. And instead of try getting trapped in this, why, why am I here? Am I allowed to be here? Turn your mindset and become the same thing I’ve been harping on in this episode is become a student. Like have a student mindset. If you’re just there learning, if you’re open about how you’re learning in this process, no one’s going to judge you. Like, I mean, no one’s gonna judge you anyways, but you yourself won’t judge yourself either because you’re like, I’m not imposing anybody. I’m here to learn. I’m doing this. You know, just adopting that student
Speaker 3 (34:51):
Mindset, you, your
CVH (34:55):
Journey as a podcaster, as a business owner, as anybody building a personal brand. It’s just finding a way to get through that obstacle, you know, packaging your who you are and what you have to offer. And then telling people, this is how I’ve learned to do it on my journey. And people will be so glad you did it.
AJV (35:15):
Hmm. You just reminded me of this quote I saw here recently and it said be you, there’s no one else like you, so why be anyone else? And it’s, it’s such a thing as we forget our own power, our own uniqueness. When we get stuck in that imposter syndrome state and you forget, it’s like, oh yeah. Like I, I am worth being here and what I have to say is going to help someone else. And it’s focusing on who you can help versus who you can’t. ’cause You’re not meant to help everyone and it’s just focusing on, there’s a group of people for you. Focus on them. Don’t worry about the people who aren’t for you. That’s not who you’re doing it for. You’re doing it for the people who need it.
CVH (36:02):
Exactly. And I just to add to that, like if you’re going out there to create a podcast, that’s for everyone. That’s probably not the right direction for you because not everyone is going to love what you put out there. But if there’s even one or two people that are touched by whatever you’re doing, how you’re helping them, and they, like I’ve heard so many people say, you know, I’ve got this feedback from this listener and somebody who said, oh, I helped them out here. And that’s just small things and it’s can like boost you into continuing to do what you wanna do and getting your podcast and your message out there and it’s just like, yeah, go for that.
AJV (36:39):
Mm. That’s such a good reminder. So before we go Carly, tell people what exactly you guys do at We Edit podcast.
CVH (36:48):
Oh my gosh. So we have involved for everything from edit, editing, audio for your podcast, video editing for your video, podcast transcription show notes. We even have a launch package for people who want some handholding on the launch podcast launch steps and you know, the whole process. So everything is so clearly laid out on our website. If you wanna find out anything about any services you could, we’re happy to hop on calls with you, making everything as easy as possible. And obviously our main thing is people love us because of our fast turnaround and great quality . So if you’re in a, sometimes we even get people who, oh, I’m in a crunch, I need this episode done, but my editor’s busy. Hey, can I sign up for your trial? Yeah, go for it. We’ll help you out. You know, like whatever we can do to make the lives of podcasters easier because I know a lot of work goes into producing a podcast. So yeah, we’re just here to help.
AJV (37:47):
Well, I would second what you just said, and I can’t say this about every vendor we’ve ever worked with, but I can say it about you guys, that’s all true. It’s you know, we just submitted, I don’t know, 18 hours of content to your team to edit uhhuh. And I think like by yesterday you already had like the first three episodes done since Monday. It’s like you guys are crushing it. And on top of that you know, we’ve been monthly clients for over five years and not only are you guys reliable and you do good work and you fast, you hit your deadlines, but you’re also super affordable. And you didn’t mention that I think you’re super affordable for what you guys do. So they’re one of our preferred vendors. Highly recommend them. We’ve used them for years on multiple podcasts for multiple projects.
AJV (38:36):
You guys do an awesome job and if you guys wanna check them out I will put a link in our show notes so you can go learn about all of their services and all that they do. And Carly, thank you so much for being on the show. This was insightful and helpful and it’s so good to get a behind the scenes look at someone who is literally listened to, edited and produced thousands of episodes. So thank you so much. For everyone else, thanks for tuning in. Stick around for the recap that apparently no one else downloads, but maybe you’ll .
CVH (39:08):
I listen to them. , I love them. They were my favorite. Yeah,
AJV (39:14):
They’re awesome. Go check it out, be the first and we’ll catch you next time on the influential personal brand. Bye guys.
CVH (39:22):
Bye. Thanks.

Ep 417: 3 Tips To Help You Uplevel your Instagram Game | Chelsea Peitz Episode Recap

AJV (00:02):
Do you want to know how to be better on Instagram? Well, I’ve got three things that are gonna help you do just that, and I’m gonna make this as short and sweet as humanly possible. But I just wrapped up an amazing conversation with a newer friend of mine at Chelsea Peitz, and I had Chelsea on the podcast, the Influential Personal Brand podcast, and we were having this conversation about how many people are like, how to just, whatever I do, it doesn’t seem to be working and Instagram’s not for me, and I keep trying this video content, but it’s, you know, no one is liking it, it’s not getting an engagement. So how do I be better at Instagram? Like, how do I be better on this platform? So here are the three takeaways that I think are really helpful and tactical that will allow you to actually take some movement immediately into actually being better on the platform.
AJV (00:55):
Number one is you have to know how the algorithm works. And it’s very simple. The algorithm rewards you when you spend more time on the platform. Surprise, right? It’s not a secret, but we, we think it’s this mysterious thing that we can’t figure out. And the truth is, now it’s quite simple. They reward you when you spend more time there. And the most time that you can spend there is an engagement, right? So it’s responding to comments, it’s communicating and engaging in the dms that matters. It’s not just the content you post and how many people see it, but it’s how much time are you spending on the platform and how much time are you engaging others on the platform? Because if you’re engaging with others on the platform, then you’re both spending time here. So if you’re doing that with lots and lots and lots of people, then you’re bringing more and more people back to the platform, and it’s gonna reward you for that then, because it knows that you’re spending time there and you’re bringing other people there.
AJV (01:56):
So it’s not just about posting content, it’s not just about great content. Those are prerequisites. It’s not just about consistency. Those are expectations. Now, now it’s rewarding. It’s like, well, how much time are you spending? Right? This, these are businesses, you know, like Meta is a business, a very successful high revenue business. So they’re in the business of making money. And when you spend time on there, ad revenues go up and more money comes in. So that is it, it’s simple. That doesn’t mean we have to like it, but it’s more time on the platform is how the algorithm works. So spend more time in engagement and comments and dms. And the other parts are prerequisites. You have to be posting consistently. It has to be good content, it has to be searchable and findable. Those are prerequisites. Now it’s how do we go from here?
AJV (02:47):
And it’s more time on the platform. And what I love what Chelsea said, she said, the most important conversation is the communication that you’re having on the platform. So that’s the first thing. Second thing is don’t forget that there are some things, tactical things that you can do to become more findable and more searchable. So don’t forget that Instagram, like all other social media platforms, is a search engine just like Google, just like YouTube it’s a search engine. People are going there, searching for things, entertainment, education relationships, engagement, whatever. But there, it’s a search engine. So you have to be findable, you have to be searchable. And there are two searchable fields on your profile that allow you to be more findable. One is your handle, right? So it can’t be, you know, jogger 1, 2, 3, underscore 2023. It can’t be it, right?
AJV (03:48):
You have to be findable. So as much as usually humanly possible, use your name, right? Mine is AJ Vaden. So it’s like, get as close to your name as humanly possible. But that’s what people are finding. It’s like I type in people I meet all the time and they’re like, oh yeah, just find me on Instagram. And I assume, oh, it must be your name since you said, go find me on Instagram. When it turns out, it’s like, no, it’s, you know, I can’t even think of one right now, but it’s like, you know you know, sassy Saysso. And I’m like, well, who, who the heck is sassy? I dunno who that is. So you gotta be findable, right? So that’s the first place. And then the second is where your name goes, right? So it’s your profile and then it’s your username, right?
AJV (04:35):
So it’s like your handle. And then it’s like, what is the actual name? So like where that is if you’ve got the blue chip, then you’ve got to, you also have something that’s legally identifiable on your license. So my legal name, , I don’t know if you knew this is not aj, it’s Amanda. So I had to come in there and put in a little bit more information. So it’s Amanda Johns Vaden Little Space Brand Builders Group, because it’s different than my handle, which is AJ Vaden, which is what I’ve gone by since age 10, but it’s not my legal name. So I’ve got my legal name, Amanda Johns, and then Brand Builders Group, because that’s what I wanna be associated with. That’s why I wanna be identified with, if people are searching for Brand Builders group or aj or in this case Amanda, which no one is doing that, but I want everything to be fined and coalesced together.
AJV (05:23):
So those are the two fields that are searchable. And then the rest of the information in that profile section is helpful, but it’s not searchable, right? So once somebody finds me or finds brand Builders group then it’s like, is this someone I want to follow someone I wanna look at their content, someone I wanna engage with? And I make it very clear like, this is what you’re gonna get from me, and here’s my call to action of how to engage with me off the platform. Those are all really helpful things. ’cause We’re not trying to build our audiences just on social media, right? Social media to us that it’s an advertising vehicle. But what you really wanna do is you want to move this relationship off of social media and into your email list or to a blog subscriber or a podcast subscriber.
AJV (06:10):
But we’re not trying to only access this relationship on the social media platform. We also want to have them on our platform so that relationship can be more intentional, more meaningful, more direct, right? So you gotta have your handle, then it’s like what you choose to put in that username category. So, you know, it could be what you do. In my case, it’s the name of the company. And then underneath that, it’s like, what’s gonna appeal to the audience I’m serving? And then what’s the call to action to engage with me off of this platform? So your profile section is actually really helpful and mostly it’s helpful in making you searchable. So make sure you capitalize that space as much as humanly possible. And then last but not last the importance of video content. Not everyone is gonna love that we’re talking about this yet again but video is favored and preferred on all platforms, not just Instagram.
AJV (07:05):
And so this is something that we do have to learn and we do have to be better at if we want to have this component of, you know, social media. If we want social media to be a component of our lead generation, customer acquisition, employee retention, customer retention. But this is marketing, this is awareness. This is the game that we’re in. This is how we reach people today, and we do it with valuable content. We do it with relationship and engagement. And those things can happen at scale all across the world. It’s not a bad thing. To have this opportunity and access, we just have to know how to use it in the right way. So a couple of quick tips for creating video content. Short and sweet. Save the best for first. You don’t need to introduce yourself at the beginning of every video.
AJV (07:53):
People know who you are for the most part, they’re following you if they’re engaging with you. That can be found in the captions below, that can be found later out later on. But they need to know, what am I gonna get from this short video, right? So we need to start with the best content we have. And so we need to lead with, you know, wanna know how building a personal brand’s gonna double your income in the next 12 months. I bet you do then go into the content, but you want to start with a little bit of that marketing pitch. It’s like, yeah, it’s like, I believe that you’re building your personal brand can double your income in the next 12 months, and I’m gonna tell you three ways we can do that, right? Or maybe you’re in the dental business and you’re going, Hey, do you still have metal crowns in your teeth?
AJV (08:39):
Wanna know why those are linked to X, Y, and Z? It’s like, yeah, I do. If I have metal in my teeth, I wanna know that. So it’s like, start with those headline statements. It’s always helpful to start with a question or a provocative statement, a fact, a statistic. But you wanna start with something that’s gonna catch someone’s attention. This is where that catchy marketing lingo is really helpful in your favor, but you wanna give people what they’re gonna get right up front, and you wanna save the best for first. Then you wanna make it short and sweet, then you wanna tell people, if you wanna learn more, here’s where you go. Right? That’s where you continue the relationship, continue the engagement. Other quick things, and these came from Chelsea. I thought these were so helpful in our conversation, .
AJV (09:22):
And if you’re watching this then you can see what I’m doing. If not, I’m gonna explain it. But don’t forget that if you’re like using your camera to film, it’s like you can just move your arm and get different angles, right? So it’s, I can start here and then here and then here, and then here, and then here. And it’s like all of a sudden you’ve got a multi camera angle shoot by just using your iPhone. But movement matters. It catches the attention, it breaks things up. If it’s just my little head in a tiny little box and there’s no movement happening the whole time just like this. We, we kind of get distracted kind of easy. Like we, we don’t have high attention spans today. And so we’ve gotta keep it engaging. That’s why it needs to be short, and there’s gotta be some interaction.
AJV (10:06):
Also if it’s your tiny head in a box, you can’t use your hands like I’m doing right now, which also really helps with the engagement factor. You can see when I’m getting excited or when I’m slowing things down those things matter. The other thing is that you’ve got to have captions that everyone listens to everything on audio they read. So having the captions makes a big difference, not just because you have some people in your audience who are hard of hearing, but because many people are walking through the airport or sitting in their cubicle at work and they’re not supposed to be maybe listening to things aloud, but they can be reading, they can be scrolling. And so it’s paying attention to the multifaceted ways of going. Like, we need movement, we need sound but we also need the words.
AJV (10:48):
And that’s easy. It’s all built into the platform that allows you to do that. Now, last but not least, this is the last thing. It’s don’t forget that you don’t have to create every single ev every single piece of content that you make. Now, original content matters a lot because it’s your story and everything else has already been said except for your story. So tell your story. No one else has your unique personal experiences, life stories only you do. So tell the thing that no one else can give the ideas and the examples, the only you can because they’re yours. But that’s not the only thing that you have to create content about. And you can vary it up so it doesn’t feel so overwhelming, like, oh, I have to come up with this brand new stuff every day or every week. No, you don’t. You can come up with it as it feels good and original to you, but don’t forget, every single day you get asked a certain amount of questions that you know the answers to. Could you share that content in a video? Don’t forget, every single day you ask questions
AJV (11:52):
That you need answers to once you get ’em. Could that be a piece of content you share with your audience every single day? You go places you see people, you have experiences, you encounter interesting or weird moments. Can other people relate to those? Does that create the human element that you need? Does that create relational value where somebody else can go, huh, me too. That happened to me today too. Like, I’m so glad I’m not the only one. Or I can’t believe this had happened to somebody else before. I thought I was the only one. Right? And it happens at both levels. And so don’t forget, you don’t have to create every single piece of content based on your original content, although that’s helpful and important and valuable, but there’s also everyday moments that we all experience all around us that allow you to create that human relationship online where someone else can go.
AJV (12:48):
Me too, me too. So if you wanna be better at Instagram it doesn’t take, it’s not rocket science, right? It doesn’t take a neurosurgeon to figure this out. But it does take some time and effort and intention if you want to do it. And it’s not for everyone. So don’t feel like you have to. And I think that’s a big takeaway. It’s like, if this is not the platform of choice for you because your audience doesn’t live there, skip pass, go move on. Don’t worry about it. These, there is no like rule of like, this is what you have to do to be successful. You do not have to have millions of followers to have a, a massive impact on lives that you are touching. You do not have to have viral videos to make a difference. You, you don’t just focus on the one, focus on engaging and building relationships just like you do offline, right? It takes time and work to build relationships in, in real life in person. It takes the same amount of work online. So don’t forget that time matters and it takes time to make this work. So there you have it. Here’s how to be better at Instagram with three quick tips that you can start doing today. See, you.

Ep 416: Be Better at Instagram: 5 Things You Can Do Today with Chelsea Peitz

AJV (00:02):
Hey, welcome everybody. This is AJ Vaden, one of your co-hosts on the Influential Personal Brand podcast. Get excited. ’cause Today we’re gonna be talking about all the things that we actually need to know, that sometimes we get so annoyed that we have to know, which is social media and it’s a, it’s a love hate relationship for many of us with social media. But we’re gonna deep dive today into, in Instagram, and I will give a formal introduction of my awesome guest in just a minute. But Chelsea is here today to do a deep dive with us on Instagram. So let me tell you why you need to stick around for this episode Before I introduce Chelsea to you. Number one, if you are questioning whether or not you should be on social media, that’s probably a good episode for you.
AJV (00:51):
Specifically if you are an entrepreneur, small business owner, solopreneur, anyone who is a reputation based, word of mouth, highly referral based business. If you’re asking yourself, do I really need to, well, what if I hate it? Do I still have to? This is probably good, worthwhile content to help sway your decision one way or the other. The second is if your preferred platform of choice is Instagram, do not skip this episode. Do not fast forward. Do not stop early. This was curated and built because of the amount of inquiries and questions on video content, the algorithm. What do we need to know? What should we be doing? And quite honestly, a lot of these are tips and ideas that you probably have never thought of before. So first category, you’re not sure if you really wanna keep going down this path of social media.
AJV (01:45):
Yeah, you should listen. Number two, Instagram is your chosen platform. This was an episode specifically designed for you, so don’t skip ahead. So with that now I get to introduce a new friend of mine Chelsea Pietz. And she was referred to me from another guest that we had on the show. So if you haven’t checked out Phil Treadwell’s episode, go check that out. But this is also a really special thing because we actually have lots of friends in common that we didn’t even put together when I first got introduced to you. And then this is what I love about the world we live in, is that you know so many people that you don’t even know, you know, until you’re like, oh, wait, like I follow you. I was just watching your course, or I just heard this episode you were on, and it’s this really cool world that we get to live in, however frustrating it can be sometimes.
AJV (02:38):
So let me give all of you a quick formal introduction of Chelsea and then we’ll jump right in. So Chelsea is an influential figure in real estate marketing coaching. She’s has more than a decade of experience doing all kinds of awesome things in the real estate industry but specifically being a trailblazer when it comes to the real estate. And then anything to do with that mortgage. Just anything in that world when it comes to social me, social media, being on video, creating content for people in that industry. She’s also a keynote speaker. She’s also renowned in the neuroscience behind effective social media Video Connections, which is a lot of what we’re gonna talk about today. She has authored a book which is called talking in Pictures. She has one has her own awesome podcast episodes all over the place. That’s one of the things that got introduced to her as you sent me the episode that you were on for Social Media Marketing World, right? Yeah. And all of these podcasts. So she’s a podcast guest, all these amazing shows. And today she gets to be a guest on our show. So we’re so excited to have you with hands-on tactical experience. You’re doing it, you’re talking about it, you’re writing about it, and now you’re gonna talk to our audience. So Chelsea, welcome to the show.
CP (04:00):
Oh my gosh, I’m so excited. First of all, I need you to be my hype woman everywhere I go. That was like the most incredible podcast, welcome. And you’re right, I do a lot of podcasts, so you are definitely at the top, if not the top. So I’m so excited to be here. I love talking about social media and demystifying all the complexities and the abstractions and helping people really understand it can be simplified. You don’t have to follow quote the rules. You can make it something sustainable and authentic to you. And at the end of the day, you are a human being. On the other side of the screen is also a human being. So I love to teach about marketing with heart and humanity, not hustle or hacks. And I know that’s what you and your team is all about as well.
AJV (04:44):
You know, I love that and I’m so, so, so glad that you started with that because I think for most of us, the reason we have this love hate relationship with social media is one, social media has got a bad rap, right? And it’s like, it’s like everything else in the world, though. It can be used for good and it can be used for bad as is life. But if you choose to use it for good, and you choose to create valuable content for an audience that you feel really called to serve, like you can do so much good. Yeah, there’s a lot of bad, but there’s a lot of good. And today we’re gonna focus on the good parts. And you know, I I am one of those people who has a love-hate relationship with it because, because I think what happens is people get hit up all the time with this is how you make it successful, and this is how you go viral.
AJV (05:36):
And I just wanna put it out there. You do not have to go viral to make a difference, right? You do not have to have millions of followers to make life-changing impact. And I think that’s the exhausting part of, you know, you feel like you have to run this machine, and it’s like, no, you don’t. So I love you said, it’s like you get to make the rules for how you do it, and there are best practices and tips, but quite honestly, pick what works for you, use that, but it doesn’t matter if you’ve got one follower or a million, like you’re doing this because you feel like you have content that can be helpful. And if we stay focused on that, the rest takes care of itself. Right?
CP (06:14):
I love that. I, I I feel like that is the entire theme and message of this entire podcast. Say it louder for the people in the back, aj. Absolutely. There is a massive difference between someone who is an influencer and someone who is influential. Ah-Huh. And I always talk about views versus value. Views do not equal value. And there’s so many meaningful metrics that we will never, ever be able to measure. I know that the people who are listening to you will have an aha moment listening to one of your podcasts. Are you able to measure that? Well, not unless they actually tell you about it. So there’s a lot of things that are immeasurable, which I also call the humanness of social media. And that’s what I’m really passionate about because I’m sort of a, I didn’t realize I was a rule breaker because I, I consider myself a rule follower. I’m like a high D rule follower. But it just wasn’t working for me. And I found it really wasn’t working for a lot of other people too. And I felt boxed in. I didn’t feel like it was sustainable. To your point, you read a blog, you go to a conference, you watch a YouTube video, and every single person is telling you something different. Well, which one is it? What do we do post every day? Post once a week? And so it becomes very overwhelming very quickly. Yeah.
AJV (07:27):
And I think the other thing that’s so overwhelming is then you do all of the things that are recommended or taught and then the algorithm changes and PO there goes all that work you did . And we tell, we tell, we tell our audience at Brand Builders group all the time, so this isn’t the first time we’ve said this, but it’s like, you know, don’t build your audience on rented real estate. Right? There’s like a follower on social media is not your following, right? It’s like you’ve got to convert those people from social media to your email list, to your podcast, to your blog. But it’s an amazing advertising vehicle. But then it gets complicated when this mysterious algorithm is constantly changing. So that’s where we’re gonna start. What can you tell us about the mysterious algorithm ? Yes.
CP (08:14):
That is
AJV (08:15):
Constantly untrackable. You’re
CP (08:17):
Right. It’s untrackable constantly changing, but we’re gonna talk about it today and I’m, I’m going to bring some clarity and simplification so that you can actually apply this and understand that it’s not working against you. And in fact, if you do the right things, it’s going to be working for you. And one of the things I remember from almost 24 years ago now, I became a, a real estate agent 23 years ago. My broker would always ask me the same question when I came into the office every day. And the question was, how many people did you talk to today, ? And in early 2000, I was like, wow, it was such a busy day. I talked to three people, , I went to a coffee with someone, then I went to a tour, and then I had a listing appointment. And that was a full day.
CP (09:00):
And you also had to have someone’s phone number. You had to have their email, they had to answer their phone. You had to mail them something or go see them in person. And now the beauty of social media is you still can create those real human connections. You just can happen to share your story and your expertise and your thought leadership at scale while you’re sleeping. And so one of the things that I love to demystify is the algorithm. And yes, the algorithm is a little bit different on every single platform, but by and large, it is about the same specifically on Instagram. So we’ll talk about that one today. Believe it or not, there are actually separate algorithms for separate formats. And we’re not going to confuse anyone. There’s no need to even know about that. I just wanna let you know that there is a separate algorithm for stories.
CP (09:46):
There’s a separate algorithm for reels and everything else. What you do need to know is what is the platform looking for? And the good news, it’s the same thing your community of humans is looking for. And I call it simply less contenting, more commenting, having more meaningful conversations with people with intention and thoughtfulness. These would be people that you’ve worked with before and perhaps you want to continue working with them in the future. It could be a referral partner, it could be another small business in your particular area or hometown, anyone that you want to build brand awareness with. And that you can see a benefit that if you continue to create video content or written content, that that content could help a stranger feel like they already know you before they meet you. And so the algorithm is heavily driven by your conversations, your comments, your direct messages.
CP (10:48):
Direct messages are huge on Instagram and they have been for a while. So here’s the great thing. Who you talk to matters. And if you ask me, and I’m actually a full-time content creator, I would prefer to talk to people versus creating videos all day. I love talking to people and I love having those connections. And I love doing it specifically through Instagram stories because you’re getting this peek into someone’s life where I call it their sacred spaces. You are in my home, you’re in my office. You might be on a vacation with me. And you also see my co-stars, my dogs, my kiddo, my husband . And so you get this real sense of who I am. And you have this real time shared experience. So when you talk to people with intention, the takeaway is this, who you talk to matters. Focus on who do you wanna build an intentional conversation with?
CP (11:41):
And here’s what happens When I send you a direct message, aj, the algorithm wakes up and it takes notice because the algorithm is just a a, a data set, it’s just a software. And the ultimate goal of any platform is to keep you on it. Mm-Hmm. , as long as they possibly can. and they wanna serve you ads and they want you to create a community. So you have to keep coming back. And so while it sounds like a lovely idea that they wanna create a community, let’s be honest, they are for-profit companies. And so it behooves them to give you a positive experience while you are on the platform and to keep you there. Now, here’s the neuroscience. You spoke my love language. I am a neuroscience nerd. I love the psychology of social. Here’s the thing. Think about how you engage with your notifications on social media versus say your email, I time block my email.
CP (12:38):
If I go in there and it’s not with an intention, I am down the rabbit hole. Uhhuh , when I see an an, an Instagram notification and I have all of mine turned off. But when I go into my time block to go into Instagram, I see that notification and I immediately think, oh, this person’s probably saying something nice. They’re probably commenting or supporting my content. So I have this immediate positive reaction, and then I open it and I see your name, I see your face. So I’m having that repeat brand experience, but not in a pushy or aggressive way. You are supporting my content. And then the algorithm says, well, I think AJ and Chelsea probably wanna see more of each other because they’re talking. Hmm. So let’s reshuffle both of their feeds. So when AJ opens her feed again tomorrow, guess who’s gonna be at the top? Or when I do post something that’s not specifically for you, meaning I didn’t send it to you in a direct message, I posted it to my feed, it’s also going to show that post higher up to you, so you are more likely to see me. So it’s just like real life. Yeah. The more people you engage with and talk to, the better your community is going to be. And your algorithm’s going to reward you. They, you can train your algorithm by talking to people with intention.
AJV (13:58):
I mean, that last line, you need to like have that on a poster somewhere where it’s like, it’s like, just like in real offline life, more engagement, the more communication, the more interaction, the better it goes. Exactly right. And in this case, it’s, you know, my takeaway for this, and the good reminder for everyone is like, the algorithm rewards you for spending time on the platform. That’s what it’s rewarding. So spend time, and in this case they know engagement, right? Communication interaction is what’s gonna keep you coming back for more and more. So that’s super simple, right?
CP (14:40):
Yeah. And you don’t have to make content all the time. So that content stress, and I know we’re gonna talk about content overwhelm today. How many of you would rather talk to someone that you enjoy speaking to or potentially making their day and having them feel seen and remembered and thought of? And you can do that while you’re having your coffee or your tea in the morning from bed because you don’t even have to make a video in order to send someone a direct message. You can even send them a voice message so they can hear the tonality in your voice if you’re wishing them a great day or a happy birthday or congratulations or whatever the message may be. And that is so much easier than having to drive and go see people. Yeah. I can talk to 30 people in less than 30 minutes if I want to on Instagram.
CP (15:22):
And because you’re a heavy engager, because you’re a good community member in the eyes of Instagram. And I’m also bringing people back because they have to open that notification. So I am bringing people back. And so what happens is this ecosystem where I don’t post every day. I never have. I post once a week in the feed. I know that’s gonna be shocking for a lot of people, but I’m a heavy engager and it fuels my community and it also brings me joy. And guess what? The algorithm is very happy with that. Because your most important content is your conversations.
AJV (16:00):
Hmm. Most important content conversations. Tweet that. Or it’s not even called that anymore. I forget,
CP (16:07):
Is it a something, an X, X,
AJV (16:09):
X X? No. Who knows what’s happening over there. We’re not talking about them today. It’s so helpful. That’s so insightful. I love that. Like, that is so simple. It may not be the answer everyone’s looking for. It’s like, oh, so that’s my problem. I only get on once once a month. Okay. but it’s, but it’s so simple, which, and that’s what we’re trying to do, is just go like, what are the simple things that you can do? What do you, what do you need to know so that you can time block it and put it in your schedule, just like you do with email and all the other, you know, communication formats we have. So, okay. So I love that. I love that. So now let’s talk about the next big topic, which, okay, knowing that we’ve got some, some sort of action plan to compliment the algorithm. The next big question we wanna tackle here is, well, what, what is the one thing or the one or two things that entrepreneurs should be doing today to help build their personal brands using Instagram specifically? So what do you got for us? What should we be doing?
CP (17:10):
Absolutely. This is something that may not seem as sexy as making a reel, but it’s so critically important because the foundation of how you show up your personal brand experience on Instagram matters. And one of the most important things that I always start with when I’m auditing a client’s profile or their account, is we don’t start with content. We start with the engagement, proactive engagement, which we just talked about. Then we move into, are you searchable? Can people find you? And when they find you, what do they see? What’s the experience they have of of you and your brand and what you do? Can they even tell what you do and how you can help them? And by the way, this happens in seconds if that. So we need to focus first on your profile. And I’m gonna give you some really tactical tips and some how to use some homework, if you will, for the listeners, because I bet there’s at least one thing, if not more, on this list that you haven’t done that will absolutely help you get found by the right audience, get followed by them on the first visit. So let’s dive into a little bit. I’m
AJV (18:24):
Pulling up my Instagram profile right now. This is like a, a mentoring session right now. It’s, I’m pulling up my profile. I’m gonna check my boxes. Okay, I’m ready.
CP (18:34):
Okay. So the very first thing that you need to know is how your profile actually works in your favor. A lot of people think it’s just a place that you can go and you can set up your information one time and that’s it. When in reality it’s just like a website that lives on the internet except it lives in Instagram. And we at a basic level understand how a website and how Google searches work, there is a website, it’s a place where people can find out information and how do we find them? You go to Google, you do a search, you ask it a question with some keywords, and then it says, Hey, these websites have similar keywords. This might be what you’re looking for, obviously an oversimplification. But just to keep it really, really, really basic like that. The same thing happens on Instagram.
CP (19:18):
Instagram is a search engine. Every social media platform is a search engine. Think YouTube. Mm-Hmm. think Google owns them. And so they are trying to increase the, the robustness of their search, which means that now, yes, you can search for keywords. For example, if you wanted to find a keynote speaker, you could type in the words keynote speaker into that search bar and it will search every single profile and every single piece of content. And guess what? It’s looking for those specific keywords. But there is an asterisk where you have them matters. So when you’re looking at your profile, pull up at the top, you’ve got what’s called your username. That’s also referred to as sort of your handle. It’s the at symbol. And then your handle, I would assume yours. I think yours is your first and last name, which is perfect. And so you have your username and then you have your profile picture.
CP (20:21):
And underneath that is another field that’s called the name field. Let me go slowly through this. The fields of username and the one underneath your profile called name, those are the only searchable fields of your entire profile. So if you wanna get found, you need to make sure that you have optimized those two key areas. And I’ll give you a couple of tips on what you might wanna put in there. Well, first of all, you need your, your first and last name. That’s your personal brand. If this is representing a corporation or a company, then it would make sense to have your company or your brand’s name. If it is a solopreneur, an entrepreneur, a personal brand, it needs to have first and last, not just first, not just last. And it certainly doesn’t wanna be something obtuse like Jeep Lover 22, because then I definitely won’t find you when I’m typing in your name and your personal brand.
CP (21:21):
As you know, AJ is so critically important that we want people who are referring you. We want to easily find you. ’cause We’re not gonna stick around and keep searching. Mm-Hmm. , we’re probably gonna do one search and then just move on. So first and last name or brand name, very important. The second thing is, and I, I see this miss so many times, if you are location specific, i e real estate, you also wanna include a location in one of those areas because you want people thinking of what are they typing in? They’re probably not typing in realtor or real estate agent yet. They’re probably typing in cities or a neighborhood names. And so whatever words that you think someone would type in to find your product, your service, your company. For example, I have marketing in my name field. I’ve also had speaker in my name field as well.
CP (22:16):
You might have author or whatever types of products that you want to be found for. So name or brand, name some kind of keyword that is going to tell people what you are offering or what you wanna be found for. If you’re location specific, I do recommend a city. And last but not least you know, you can also have some of those industry terms. And I wanna just take a moment to say, jargon is very challenging when it comes to those internal language that we often use. For example, if you’re a mortgage, you might call yourself a loan officer, but you shorten that to lo and no consumers are going to be searching for the the lo . So be aware of what your consumers are looking for. So username and name fields absolutely critical to getting found. That’s the first step. And then I’m gonna give you a couple more tips for your bio once we get into your bio.
CP (23:12):
There’s no rules of how you should craft this bio. It’s super short. So they make it brief. We love that. Get to the point, but be clear about who you help and how you help them so that when somebody lands here and skims mm-hmm. , they know exactly what you are about. And one thing I see repeatedly left out, this is the one that I bet almost every single person listening to this is gonna say, oh, I don’t have that is a call to action. A call to action, a command, if you will, to tell people there is more great stuff that you don’t even know about living in this link in my bio. And to your point, aj, we don’t own Instagram. I hope it doesn’t go away tomorrow, but it could. And if all of my people, my ecosystem live on Instagram, how will I lead nurture them through that marketing funnel over time.
CP (24:07):
Mm-Hmm. and build that like no trust. We wanna get these people off of Instagram and into your ecosystem. So you need to tell people what to do. It could be something like free guides, free course. If you have some sort of free item, whether it’s educational or something that they can do, that you can offer, let them know to click that link or send you a direct message. You may not have a website yet. That’s okay. Before I had a website, I told people to direct message me for a free audit. And yes, it was manual. But back at that time, I was able to manage yeah. The number of people that were coming in. And I built my brand with them. So you don’t have to have a website, but you need to tell people what’s the next step. Yeah. And they need to know specifically what’s in it for them and what’s on the other side and click here. That is a call to action. It’s a short one, but we want something that answers what is in it if I click not just to click here so that they know exactly what they’re going to get. So those are kind of the the two main areas that I would say in the profile and the bio that are critical for people to, to see who you are and what you do and to find you. And it’s also telling the algorithm what you’re all about.
AJV (25:22):
Yeah. I love that. And I think that, you know, it’s so similar to, like, we talked about this a lot with like LinkedIn, it’s no different here, right? It’s like all the
CP (25:29):
Same.
AJV (25:30):
It’s all the same, but you gotta know the little things. And so, so here I have a question. So what if you know, ’cause this kind of goes in with another question we were gonna talk about, which is, should you have your own personal account and then one for your business? Like, I mean, I wanna like, you know, you know, do all the fun vacation picks, but then I have all my business content. Like how do you manage those? And so before you answer that, because I am super curious to hear your thoughts, what if you are, you know, the, the face of a business per se? So like, I’ll use mug mine for example. So I’ve got my name. Would it also be good to put my business’s name next to my name? Mm-Hmm. ,
CP (26:12):
I would it without looking at it, I don’t have it in front of me, but I would have your username be your first and last name. Yep. And then in that name field you could have AJ and then like a little space and then Brand Builders group or whatever company or information you want in there. And then the bio itself, yes. You can also please insert keywords. It’s not going to be searchable by Instagram standards, but here’s the thing. Every ai, every software is looking at overarching themes. I think of it like a, ’cause I have a 10 year old who’s in fifth grade. So we do a lot of homework together. And I always tell ’em, you know, it’s okay if you just, you know, don’t s smash it on this, you know, spelling test. It’s not gonna ruin your whole grade for the year. . It’s the same concept on the socials. Okay? So it’s looking at what you’re, it’s looking at what words you’re saying in your videos. It’s looking at your content over time. I guarantee Instagram knows that you are the person to share with people who are looking to build their brand because you talk about it consistently. You use hashtags that have to do with that. So it’s looking at all the things, not just those two areas, even though those two areas are very important.
AJV (27:25):
Yeah. So my last question on this, so in your opinion, would it be better to put like AJ Vaden, you know, little Space Brand Builders Group or AJ Vaden Little Space helping entrepreneurs build personal brands?
CP (27:42):
Okay. I would put the, the message or what you’re doing in the actual bio one, because there’s probably not gonna be enough space for it. But also think about what people are searching, helping. Probably not a lot of people searching for helping, right? Yeah. That actual word. But if somebody refers me to Brand Builders Group, I’m searching for that direct. I know this because I did and I typed it in, and guess what I found? I found your account, which is exactly what I wanted to find. So I would say, you know, what are the words that people are searching? And a lot of people wanna put these words in and I say, but wait, are people searching those words? Or would this word maybe work better? Mm-Hmm. .
AJV (28:21):
Yeah. So I think a lot of that too is, you know, one I love free coaching advice, but then also I think a lot of people, it’s like you, what I find all the time is that we have so many of our audience members at Brand Builders Group, they get caught up in being in the catchy word phrase, Hey, I want it to be like cutesy and I want it to be like this. And it’s like, no, be clear. Just be very clear. Right? But it’s like we get caught up in the marketing lingo Yes. Versus, you know, just what are people typing in? Right.
CP (28:52):
And I’m laughing because I’m not, I am one of those people. I’m very transparent. I love a good little rhyming marketing slogan. I understand that. And you are so right. It needs to be clear. It needs to be concise, and it needs to be succinct. Absolutely.
AJV (29:07):
Yeah. So good. This is great. Okay, so personal profile, business profile. Do we need two accounts? Like really? Okay,
CP (29:15):
This is a, this is a question I get every single time, every podcast, every webinar, every time I’m speaking. And I love this question because this question really aligns with, with my message, which is, you know, your human first and whatever you’re, you’re selling or service, you know, it is second. And at the end of the day, we are human beings behind the screen, right? So the reason that we got started on these two accounts, we can, we can thank Facebook for that because Facebook made us have these business pages. And so we all got business pages and now everybody has a business page. And guess what? The reach and engagement is abysmal unless you pay for it. Hmm. That might be why they’re keeping bus business pages around. And then invariably what happens is, every time I coach somebody that has two accounts, okay, they say, oh my gosh, I’ve got this one business account.
CP (30:04):
And so I put business stuff over there. I put my just listeds my just sold or my definitions of the day or anything that is professional and businessy, but it really doesn’t get much engagement and it’s kind of crickets over there. And so now I kind of resent it and I don’t even wanna post over there. So then I go to Canva, which I love and adore, and I just pull a template and I post it over there. And guess what? I’m in this vicious circle of not being able to get any engagement and then feeling the pressure of having to also post to that account. Now, there are many times where an individual may wanna keep something completely separate. You decide what works for you. If you have children that you don’t wanna share your children on social media, absolutely have a private account for family and friends.
CP (30:51):
Just know that I would recommend having a secondary account that is public because you do want people to find you, you do want to grow that way. And that is absolutely perfectly fine to have two, oftentimes I think two accounts is twice the work, depending on what your goals are. If you’re trying to grow. Two, it’s a lot of work. I also consider one human, one brand, one account. Mm-Hmm. . So generally speaking, I do recommend having one account, mainly because it’s just gonna be easier to manage. And also because at the end of the day, people wanna see the human being and have that connection of that person, even if it’s behind a team or a product. They wanna know what’s going on behind the scenes because we need that connection point, that emotion point, that human point. And so it doesn’t have to be private content.
CP (31:40):
There’s a difference between personal and private. Private is whatever you decided to be. It could be the vacation pics. It could be showing your family but personal is your face, your voice, your perspective created from your lived experiences. And that is the only original content on the planet. is your take, your an unpopular opinion, your story of this is what happened to me when, and so a lot of people, you know, think they don’t have any good stories to tell. And I’m like, but everything has already been told unless it’s your story. Amen. And so by showing up with your face and your voice and talking about a market update or data or this new chart, you’re still humanizing it and giving it your own original flavor. So a long answer to whatever serves you the best, whatever you’re comfortable with.
CP (32:36):
I usually just say, unless there’s extenuating circumstances, have one account and make your content a hundred percent human. There’s no 80 20 anymore. You can have a hundred percent business content and still humanize it. Or you could have no business content . It really just depends on are you in it? ’cause I’m scanning, I’m looking for AJ’s face when I go through her content. Are you even in it? Would I even know who I was meeting? And I’m also looking to pick up within seconds, what are you all about? Mm-Hmm. , if I see video after video or tile after tile that says about brand building, about personal brand, about thought leadership, about podcasting, I know what you’re all about. So it’s that quick that people look through something and they scan, they’re just lurking with love. They’re lurking looking there to see if they’re gonna find out if you’re somebody that they wanna follow and take the next step.
AJV (33:27):
love that lurking with love .
CP (33:29):
Yeah, absolutely. I
AJV (33:30):
Love that. But I think I love that. And I, I completely agree, like agree, we completely are on the same page here. The idea of trying to manage two accounts feels so much work. I mean, it feels like so much work because it is
CP (33:47):
Mm-Hmm. , it’s like it’s, I can’t do it. And
AJV (33:50):
Really, I think more importantly, it’s like people don’t fall in love with businesses. They fall in love with people. They fall in love with founders. They fall in love with the person who had the idea for the business, and they fall in love with the story and what it’s about and who it’s for. But nobody falls in love with a logo. Right? They may fall in love with the products because the products serve a need that they have, right? And so totally agree with that, and I love that. So you, you actually just talked about this when you mentioned lurking with love. It’s like, if you’re scrolling quickly, like we’re making instantaneous judgment calls decisions on, is this the type of person I wanna follow content I wanna check out is it, is this someone that I want more of and more from?
AJV (34:34):
And a lot of that has to do with video content, right? And so one of the things that we had kinda outlined is something that we thought would be worthwhile for this conversation today is, well, if we know that it’s that important, and we know that the, you know, typically algorithm favors video, just generally speaking why do we have such a hard time with it? And I can just speak for the community that I get to serve at Brand Builders group and our own team. It’s like, I’ll be having a conversation with someone just like this, and it’s mind blowingly good. And I’m like, we gotta get that on camera. So I pause and I get my phone and I ask the question again, and then it’s like, deer in the headlights, crickets. And they’re like, wait, what, what were we saying?
AJV (35:17):
And it’s like all of their like personality and their amazing ideas just fluttered away into who knows where. And there’s this immense amount of video insecurity. It’s, I don’t like the way I look on video. They, they are not themselves, like their personality, their, even their words just fall apart as they look at this red dot, or in my case, a green dot and five computer. And so why does that happen and how can we overcome it? Like how do we get better at creating better video specifically for short form content, right? Because we’re not trying to put 30 minute videos up, or 10 minute or even five minutes, right? We’re talking about short short. So how do we get better at this? Oh,
CP (36:05):
Video insecurity is something that I know well and it, I know it well because it was me. I I have a secret. I did not watch my videos back for five years , which I would not recommend that strategy. But I will tell you, we talked about making it your own. I was self-aware and I am self-aware, and part of marketing is being self-aware and what works for you and what doesn’t, and trying things and deciding that. And, and I knew that if I watched my videos back, I would not make the next one . And I said, I’m gonna do video because I know that I need to. It is part of where we’re going. And so I made videos and I never watched them back. And finally when I started it, I thought, oh my gosh, I could have become so much better quicker.
CP (36:50):
Mm-Hmm. If I had kind of looked at some of the things. And so I’ve really, really honed in on what I call the the cringe factor or the ick, you know, why do we have the ick when we are watching our recorded selves? And what’s really interesting is that it comes down to a mismatch, right? It’s a misalignment of seeing the recorded self and, and who we are in, in the real life. And you just mentioned this, where we can be having a conversation and then all of a sudden the camera comes on and we feel as though we have to deliver a persona or a scripted performance or sound a certain way. And then when you add in that, oftentimes when you’re framing yourself in a small video like your phone, you’re not moving very much, right? And you’re not moving your hands or your body if you’re scripting, which by the way, I love scripting.
CP (37:42):
Not saying not to script, but I spend a lot of time working on making it sound human and making sure that the warmth cues in my face don’t dissipate. Hmm. And this is a lot of your beginning, I’m gonna give you a beginner’s tip, but some advanced tips is the reason that you don’t like what you’re seeing is that mismatch is because you don’t have any body movement. You’re probably not using your hands. You may have written down some scripts and your brain is trying to remember bullet point number three because you don’t wanna rerecord or you don’t wanna make a mistake, but your face and your mouth is on the intro. Yeah. And so all of a sudden your eyes kind of just dead in and then you’re just talking like this. Now, another important thing, hardest thing I’ve ever done was scripting, is we don’t talk like we write.
CP (38:26):
Yeah. It’s a very challenging to write in a conversational friendly tone. And what happens is we’re reading in our brains and our brain’s really focusing on one thing at a time. So if you’re reading your face is probably not emoting. And if you’ve ever memorized a speech, I know I have, I’m sure you have too. It’s the hardest thing. I do not recommend it. It’s really hard to be able to memorize something, read it in your mind, and e mote and move your body and all of those things at the same time. So those are some of the reasons for our video. Ick. The answer is one that’s very simple. Ask yourself this question. If you feel a limiting belief creep in. I don’t like how I look. I don’t like how I sound. I’m not hair and makeup ready. Oh, I don’t have time to write a script.
CP (39:17):
I just feel like I’m not very good at this. Whatever that limiting belief may be, because there is a long list, ask yourself this one question, what would you do in real life? And this is the, the question I ask almost everyone who is struggling with social media. And so it works in so many capacities. Like, okay, I can’t stand how I look. Okay, so imagine I’m going to visit a client and we’re at Starbucks and we’re having a coffee, and I’ve got my first p ss l of the season, and I’m so excited and they ask me a question and I know the answer. But instead, I dive under the table and I’ve left the lattes and my clients sitting there wondering if I’m okay bending over saying, are you okay down there? And I’m like, I’m totally fine. I just have this thing where I can’t look at people when I talk to them.
CP (40:04):
What would you do in real life? We would never do that. Right? And so when we ask ourselves this question, or, you know, people say, should I, should I dmm somebody a copy and paste sales script? Okay, well, what would you do in real life? You go to a wonderful conference, you’re meeting someone, would you throw your cards in their face and give them that exact word for word copy, paste message, and then leave and go home and say, I can’t believe it. I didn’t get any new business. And I even gave them my cards. Even the new ones with the new logo, I don’t understand it. Of course not, of course not even the private thing when people are like, well, I like to keep business and personal separate. Okay, but what would you do in real life? You meet a client. Do you talk about anything but business?
CP (40:49):
If they ask you, oh my gosh, do you have dogs? And your eyes glaze over and you’re giving them stats and data? Yeah. And they’re like, okay, no. ’cause, So it’s important to ask what would you do in real life? And that’s how you can kind of work through, through those, those limiting beliefs and, and say, okay, does this make sense? Would I do that? Probably not. Okay. And then we kind of peel back those limiting beliefs and then can get into sort of the tactics, which we’ll talk about of really, you know, now that you’re gonna get on video, what are some tactics you can do to make that video better so that you do feel better about the performance, about the finished product, and also get some engagement. ’cause There’s nothing worse than making content and keep being consistent, and you’re posting it and like nothing’s happening. Right? I understand it’s discouraging. So we’ll talk about those tips as
AJV (41:35):
Well. I love that. And I, as you were talking, I, I remember somebody giving me this tip one time, and it’s been a long time since I’ve used it, because I don’t have video in security. It’s probably, I probably need to have a little bit more video in security. I a little more . That’s probably my problem. But I remember, like there was, in the early days, you know what my biggest problem was? Is I was watching myself, right? Mm-Hmm. . And like, I was so concerned with like this piece of hair stuck on my neck. I don’t even know if that, but it’s like I was, I was concerned with all me, and that’s not who I’m making list for. And somebody had said, you know, if someone is filming you don’t ever look at the camera, look at the person.
AJV (42:17):
So ask the person to step right above or right under the camera and talk to them, position the camera in a way that the person who you’re talking to, you’re talking to a person, not a camera. Now if you’re filming yourself, and we, this is something we talk a lot about, but hopefully you have an ideal, you know, customer avatar, right? You have this person that’s like, this is who I’m making this content for. So it’s, you know, whoever that person is, but have a picture of a person and cover it. Like, you can, like, just tape it on your computer screen right below where the little camera is. So you’re not looking at yourself, but you’re looking at a picture of the person, right? And it’s like, Google some images, give them a name like build out who they are. Like, but you gotta know that this, you’re talking to a real life human.
AJV (43:07):
Like, these are not mysterious accounts. These are people. And so talk to a person. And I remember that was years ago. I haven’t done it in a long time, but I may bring it back. I may bring it back because I, I think so much of what you said is like, what would you do in real life? In real life? You don’t talk to a camera, you talk to a person. Mm-Hmm. , right? It’s like you’re not talking to yourself. You have a, a dialogue, not a monologue. So try to recreate as much of that as humanly possible. So, all right, I love that. I think that’s so wise and so helpful. So give us some give us some tips of, okay, we’re over the video anxiety parts, and now we just need to make it better. What do we need to do? How do we make good short form content?
CP (43:46):
Yes. Okay. I’m gonna give you a lot of tactics, but I, before I do, I just wanna say there are no rules. We are applauding you and cheering you on if you make any video at all. . Yeah. So I’m speaking to me, I’m coaching myself because I get very in the weeds about did I have this kind of intro? Did I have my call to action? Do I have? And so it can feel very overwhelming, especially if you were that type of personality, which I am. So please know that you can maybe pick one thing, one thing from this list, and you don’t have to do all of them. And maybe over time you can try adding something new. So the list that I love to give is one of the first things is how you’re starting your video. The thing you also need to know about algorithms in general, especially on Instagram, if you are creating, say, an Instagram reel or if you’re on TikTok, or if you’re making a reel on Facebook, what a lot of people don’t realize is their entire purpose for creating those short form vertical videos they call reels, is discovery.
CP (44:50):
Which means that they are pushing those videos to people who don’t know you. Mm-Hmm. Which is kind of awesome. If you wanna grow and you wanna share your message, you used to have to pay for ads for that, but now they’re looking at your topic, it, they’re serving this content to people that don’t know you. In fact, it’s 40 plus percent of the content you see in your feed and your home feed are from people you don’t follow. And that’s kind of new. So what happens is, you don’t have time. These people don’t know and love you. I kn I know and and love people that I follow, and I will sit through their intro because I love them, but not if I don’t know you. You’ve gotta get to the point. So the intro, sometimes we hear something like this, Hey everyone, it’s Chelsea Pipes, and today we’re talking about, and they won’t even last through the, Hey everyone, first of all, we wanna address the one human being that we’re talking to.
CP (45:42):
So we’re gonna use that word, you, not everyone, or hey all, or hey guys or whomever it is. But it’s how you start matters. So how do I recommend that you start a video? The simplest way is to ask a question and use the word you. So you’re gonna ask a question and use the word you. And you could call that a hook if you’re speaking in marketing terms. And there’s all kinds of hooks that you can use. You could even Google it. You could ask chat and g p t you could make it so that it’s specific to your industry, but simply asking a question. So here’s an example. Instead of me saying, Hey, everyone, it’s Chelsea, and today we’re gonna talk about three things you need to know for Instagram. Okay? I might say, do you wanna know the number one thing you’re doing wrong on Instagram?
CP (46:29):
I asked a question. I used the word you. And that person who doesn’t know me is like, oh, you’re talking to me because you used the word you and even invited me into a conversation by asking a question. Now, does every video you ever make have to have a hook? No. Does every video you ever make have to start with a question? No. But this is a best practice and it will improve your mindset when you’re creating video content to think about how can I stop the scroll? So that’s tip number one, is how you start your video matters. And I recommend having a hook, or it could just be simply a question and use the word you. Now, my second tip is my favorite. This is like my, my secret weapon. And when I realized this, I was like, where have I been? Where have I been this entire time?
CP (47:15):
If there’s anyone out there listening who thought I need to record this whole video in one clip, that was me. And then I thought, well, wait a minute. I don’t have to record this whole video in one fell swoop. I can actually record it in clips or little tiny itty bitty sentences I mentioned before. I love to script. I do a lot of educational content and I gotta be brief. So I like to write it out so I know what I’m gonna say. I don’t wanna memorize it because I still want it to feel like me. And that’s a lot of content stress. So I’m gonna do one sentence at a time. And if you’re in Instagram or TikTok, or if you are in Facebook and you’re creating a reel, all you have to do is press and hold record sentence number one, let go and reset.
CP (47:57):
Have a glass of water, look down at your notes. And when I started doing that, I was like, oh my gosh, I feel so much better. I don’t have to memorize all of this and I can record in clips. And with the beauty of how they set up these editing features, it just strings it all together. And so it’s a really simple way to not have to memorize, to be able to look down and feel confident. And also another pro tip, really high production value. I actually move my arm from here to here or just, you know, a few inches in between the clips. And I don’t even use a tripod, but I, I just move. And people say, why you change your angles? I go, because TV has a lot of cameras. They have camera one, camera two, we’re zooming in, we’re zooming out, and I hate editing and I don’t wanna edit. So all I do is my high production value of starting in one position and moving to the next when I’m recording clip number two. So recording in clips is absolutely going to help you. Ooh,
AJV (48:55):
Love that. So easy. And you know what the best part about that is? You don’t have to like get another, you know, editing app. You don’t have to like do this on your computer. You don’t have to do it outside of the, of the platform. Mm-Hmm. , just do it in the platform. Hold, release, hold, release. Mm-Hmm. . Yeah. Make, you’re making it easy, but you gotta know what to do. Yes,
AJV (49:18):
Yes. You gotta know what to do. I love that. And I love two simple tip of like, just move your arm, right? , it’s like, you know, I think those are, but those are the subtle things that as you’re looking at engaging content, it, it is more than just a face in a box, right? Mm-Hmm. the videos that I end up, you know, paying attention to have movement, right? It’s like, and I even think about that with static posts too. It’s like the amount of time that I spend at looking at motion posts that have quotes on them versus a static quote is unbelievably different. Why? Because I want all the senses involved. I wanna look at the flowing ocean in the background. I wanna hear the music that I like, and I want to read the, you know, the quote versus here’s a static image with a quote on it, right? I will share, or like the ones that are motion, that have movement and sound 100 times more than I would share one that’s just a graphic image.
CP (50:21):
Yeah. And, and you know, it’s funny because you can have really powerful text thought leadership content without any movement either. But you’re right, the, the stopping the scroll usually happens with some kind of, of movement. And that also brings in my, my really important last point for any video that you’re making. And this is one point that I see so many people missing almost a hundred percent of my audits. I will look through the content and this is not on it. And this will help you get more followers as well. So words text, right? Yeah. What is it? 80, 90% of people viewing videos have the sound off for a variety of reasons. Yeah. If it’s me, I’m in an airport somewhere, right? I’m getting on a flight to go somewhere. Maybe you’ve got a newborn and it’s 3:00 AM and you are not moving to wake that baby up.
CP (51:07):
But you are sitting there now and you’re gonna watch something, right? Maybe it’s like if your husband’s like mine and he watches like sci-fi and I don’t wanna watch that, but I don’t wanna be rude and have my phone on whatever reason it is. You’ve gotta give people different ways to consume the content. There is a massive audience of users who prefer sound off or need the closed captioning because they are hard of hearing or death. Yeah. So good. And so it’s critical that if you wanna engage people, they’re not gonna watch your mouth move for 30 seconds. They’re not even gonna watch your mouth move for three seconds if we can’t read it. So you need to add the closed captioning. It’s built right into the system. And the last thing that is the one that everyone, almost all, everyone misses, we’re going back to the profile where I’m scanning AJ’s profile, seeing what she’s all about.
CP (51:51):
If AJ doesn’t have a title on every single video, she does like a reel and there’s no title. I’m not gonna click on all 300 of her videos. I’m new here. I just wanna scan and see what she’s all about. So it’s so critical that on any short form, vertical video on any platform, you have a title that tells people what are they going to learn about? What are you talking about in the video? Because when somebody scrolls through mine and sees what I talk about, they’re like, oh, this person knows what they’re talking about. I’m gonna click follow. And so it’s really, really important to have those, what they call cover photos. Or just text on, on your video so that we know what it’s about.
AJV (52:34):
Oh, this is so good. And y’all, I cannot believe that we have already been talking for an hour. I told Chelsea it’s like 45 minutes and we’re gonna cover these things. And it’s like, whew. 60 minutes, just like flew by in a gif. And like we had a whole nother question that we were gonna spend time on. I, Chelsea, I’m gonna have to have you back at some point, but I don’t wanna leave everyone hanging. So the last question, and we’ll just do this super high level, and then we’ll tell people where to go to connect with you. Actually, I’ll go ahead and do that now. Y’all, if y’all wanna learn more about Instagram, then you should probably just follow Chelsea on Instagram, right? It’s like, if you want more of these tips you just go to, I think it, you said it’s, hold on, I’ve got this, I wrote it down so that I didn’t forget.
AJV (53:16):
It’s Chelsea dot pipes and it’s P E I T Z, Chelsea Pipes. That’s her handle. It’ll be in, in the show notes. So go follow her on Instagram and learn more about how to be better at Instagram. Now, last thing, content overwhelm. And we’ve kind of touched on this in a variety of different ways, but so many people want to, but they’re like, oh my gosh, I just don’t have time. Right? And I’m not a full-time digital marketer. I’m not a full-time content creator. I have a full-time business. How do I fit this all in ? And so what, what kind of quick tips can you give us in like, the next couple of minutes that you think would be really helpful for the listeners so they can get things going without feeling overwhelmed, feeling overwhelmed?
CP (54:03):
I think the easiest way to start thinking about content, and this is my personal strategy too, because I am in the overwhelmed category, I get so excited. I have too many things. I, I then I have no ideas. And what if I run out of ideas, which I guarantee will not happen, but I’m just letting you know, I also have that fear because I am human. And so I would recommend being more aware, and that’s the hardest part of content. So when I’m coaching people and creating like Instagram stories, they’re like, I don’t have anything to post. Like, I’m, you know, going to my law office and I’m, you know, doing paperwork that’s not exciting. Well, we have to start looking at everything as content. And I’m not saying to give all of those details away, but you can mess or you can give the message of, today I helped a client who was going through X, Y, and Z.
CP (54:50):
And you know, this is a really good lesson to learn about copyright law. So you can still let people know. So you have to start being aware of the content that’s around you. The best way that I personally do this is I put some time in my calendar, like three minutes max. I mean, if you wanna try it in one minute, go for it. I love that for you. But look through your text messages, look through your emails. Think about what meetings you had today. Mm-Hmm. And what were questions that came up? What were topics? What were the things that went sideways? Because you know, that’s definitely gonna be good content for you to say, here’s how to avoid this. And it’s being aware of the questions you’re being asked. And knowing that I am always asked this set of questions, Hmm, maybe I should make some content about it because if these people have questions about it, I guarantee that other people have questions about it.
CP (55:39):
And here’s my last tip on the content is, and this is a little bit harder, so maybe this is like the 2 0 2. I want you to start thinking about what are the questions people aren’t asking ’cause they don’t know to ask about. And that’s really where you can build that mind share and that thought leadership where people say, huh, I never thought about that. Mm-Hmm. , thank you. And so, yeah, questions are always good places to start. The hardest part is actually capturing the questions and, and having the discipline to sit down and think about it. And I don’t do anything fancy. I literally put it on the notes on my phone, and that’s all I do. I don’t have a spreadsheet if you want one. I love that for you too. And you can just start writing down questions. And you’ll also, I would challenge you to break apart those questions. If you’ve got three things they can do, then you’ve got three different videos or three different posts. Or if you wanna put it all in one, you can.
AJV (56:32):
I love that. And I just, I kind of wrote this down too. It’s, I, here’s my big takeaway from this. It’s like, content’s everywhere. You don’t have to come up with it. It’s everywhere. Like it’s, find one thing to talk about every day. So I love what you said, it’s like, what questions were you asked today? Or what questions did you ask today? Or what questions did you want to ask that you didn’t? You know, what experiences, like, did you run into an old friend? Did you did you have a client come back? It’s like, but what unique, something happened. Maybe it was a school event with your kids or a sporting event, but like, what was an experience you had? Where did you go? Who did you see? Were there any interesting moments? Was it like, you know, I have weird stuff happened to me every day.
AJV (57:15):
I don’t know if I attract it or what, but it’s like Rory is always like, babe, like, like, put that on Instagram. Like, you need to like talk about like this weird, like, yes, it’s just like that, but that’s life. Everyone has it. Yeah. It’s just, are you paying attention? Mm-Hmm. , are you thinking that’s worthy that anyone else could relate to this? And I’m tell you what they can mm-hmm. . And they’re, they’re waiting on someone like you to go. Me too. Me too. So that is what this is about. And I’m gonna bring it back to that one thing you said in the very beginning, which is such a great wrapper on this. It’s like, the most important conversation you’re having is the communication. Mm-Hmm. . And I think that’s so true offline and online, right? And so this has been so insightful so many pearls of wisdom and tactics and also just principles of thought around this has been so awesome. I’m so grateful. Thank you so much for your time today. And as a reminder to everybody go follow Chelsea on Instagram, Chelsea.
AJV (58:17):
I’ll put it in the show notes, but then also stay tuned as I do the recap episode next.

Ep 413: Do You Need an App? | Josh Hotsenpiller Episode Recap

AJV (00:02):
Oh boy. I just had the best and most enlightening conversation. And it’s like one of those conversations that when you have it, you’re like, oh, I really need to tell somebody else about this. Usually the first victim is my husband and he’s always getting infiltrated with all the new things that I’m hearing and learning, but today to you. So welcome. Here’s what we’re gonna talk about for the next just few minutes. I’d like to keep these short, sweet, and simple. But I was recently having a conversation with a newer friend of mine. His name is Josh Hotsenpiller, and he’s the founder and CEO of this awesome company called Juno, which we happen to be using to build the new brand builders group app. And so I also have another great friend, Amanda Mariachi, who also owns a company called appt.
AJV (00:46):
They build custom apps. And you know, apps are a big conversation, right? They’re a big topic, they’re really expensive, take a ton of time. And so I’m always so curious to go like, how much does it cost to do that? And you know, there’s so many apps out there. I’m like, all these people spent all this money making these apps. How long did it take? And it’s like, the more you get into it, it’s like, wow, like that’s really expensive. It takes a lot of time. And so I was having this conversation with Josh about building and creating apps, and he cut me off right in the beginning, which is always a good sign, something good’s gonna happen. And he goes, whoa, whoa, whoa. This is the wrong conversation to have. The conversation is not do you need an app? The conversation is what problem are you trying to solve?
AJV (01:31):
And is one of the solutions an app? And I thought that was so wise and so simply stated because, you know, we at Brand Builders group, like every other human out on the planet gets distracted by what’s happening in the market, what’s happening all around us, what our friends are doing, what our competitors are doing. Just what’s happening, right? And it’s like everyone needs an app. And the truth is, no, you don’t. Not everyone needs an app. Not everyone needs this. Not everyone needs that. And I thought it was just a wise thing for someone who owns an app company to go, whoa, whoa, whoa. Wrong conversation. It is not, do you need an app or How much should I spend on an app? Or, you know, at what point do I get an app? He goes, all the wrong things. All you need to figure out is what are the main problems in your business?
AJV (02:22):
And then could an app be one of the solutions? Because it’s definitely not the only one. And it really got me thinking, you know, we started this app conversation, this app journey months and months and months and months ago. And really the problem that we have been trying to solve at Brand Builders Group is consolidation, right? It’s like up until now we have had a private Facebook group for a lot of our community interaction. We have used Thinkific as our L M Ss. We use Keep as our, you know C R M, but we use Teams
AJV (02:58):
For internal Chat. We have all listservs for days for our community. But it’s like, in order to really get the full picture of all things Brain Builders Group, it’s like we have our course curriculum, our course content, and think if that you use several different, you know, landing pages to register for events or register for virtual trainings. You can come live, you can come in person, you go to our Facebook group for daily interactions, and we have a growing number of people who are like, I refuse to log into Facebook. How else can I get engaged? And we haven’t really had an answer. And what we were solving that we weren’t even clear that we were solving is our big problem is consolidation. How do we create a platform, a go-to place where you can come in to one place to get access to every single thing that we do at Brand Builders Group?
AJV (03:46):
Log into your affiliate commission statements and sign up for a referral program. Register for an event attend a live event happening right now. Chat with our community, join a forum, watch course content gamification, see leaderboards. And we were using so many fragmented tools to make that happen. It just so happens an app was the solution for our unique problem. We just went and reverse order, didn’t do it in the right order. Luckily, it all worked out in our favor. However, I just thought that was a really powerful conversation to have. And not just about an app, but about technology in general. It’s not, do you need a C R M or do you need an L M s or do you need this? It’s no, no, no, no, no. Wrong questions. What problem are you trying to solve for your business? And what technology could help?
AJV (04:42):
What problem are you trying to solve in your business? What’s the biggest problem you’re trying to overcome right now? And then is there, and then what technology could help? Super simple conversation today, but was one of those aha. You know, like ding ding, dinging moments. And I wanted to just stop in a moment and record this for you of going, it’s like we get distracted by all the shiny objects. We all have a little bit of squirrel syndrome, right? It’s like shiny object swirl. And this is a great moment to go. Like just because it’s out there doesn’t mean you need it. Just because everyone else is doing it doesn’t mean you have to. But get focused and get centered on what problem are you trying to solve. And then what and if technology or if technology can do it, and then what technology is out there that can actually help solve that problem. So hope this helped you. It was an aha for me. I’ll catch you next time. See you later.

Ep 412: Leveraging Technology to Scale Your Business with Josh Hotsenpiller

AJV (00:02):
Hey everybody, and welcome to another episode on the Influential Personal Brand. It’s AJ Vaden here and super excited to have my friend Josh on the show today. And I will give him a formal formal bio, a formal overview in just a second. But this interview is super special to both me and Roy and all of B B G because this is kind of the introduction of one of our strategic partners to our community and very high level. I’ll give you this little bit of background and then I promise I’ll introduce Josh . But Josh is the founder and c e o of this awesome company called Juno that happens to build apps. But that’s not where they started, right? It’s like they actually have way more technology interface than just this app thing that Juno does today. But our journey meeting Josh started about a year and a half ago when Rory and myself decided that we really wanted to have a more interactive mobile based component to, you know, the brand builders group community and our content organization, and really just consolidating things into one platform.
AJV (01:11):
And so I spent the better part of eight months pretty much trying out every single free demo that was available out there. Went very far down the line with some platforms that are great if you’re looking for that type of thing with like passion.io was one we went mighty Networks Pro is another. We went far down the lines, but we did a lot. And it kind of got down to the wire when I was about to sign on the dotted line with Passion io. And they revealed to me on this final call that they couldn’t do this one thing in our community that was really, really, really, really important to us. And about that time, very serendipitously very divinely one of our teammates, Jeremy said, Hey, you should check out this company called Juno. And I was like, what’s Juno?
AJV (02:00):
Long story short, now almost eight months later, we are about to go live with our own brand builders group app, the B b G app that has been totally created with Josh’s company, Juno, and their awesome team. And so Juan, I’m just really excited to have this conversation because I also know what it’s like to intimately work with your team and know your product very well, and be someone who is paying for your services and about to release it to our whole community. And so I just want, I’m super excited about it. And two, if you’re listening to this, it’s not just like I’m going to talk about how awesome it is and how excited I’m for our app to come. Although I am, I think the conversation that we’re gonna have today and why you wanna stick around for this whole episode and not cut out short cuz you think, you know, everything is three things. One, we’re gonna talk about AI and everybody has questions about ai. How should I use it? Should I be using it? Should I be afraid of it? Should I embrace it? What is it? Right? Regardless of what the questions are, we’re gonna talk about like, what are some things you need to know about ai and then specifically how can those be used within your community to help you be more effective and efficient? So I think that’s a conversation that is worthwhile to stick around for. Number two is do you need an app?
AJV (03:13):
, or do you just think you do? So I think we suffered from thinking we needed one until we realized, okay, what do, what can an app do and why do we need it? And, and also the prepared for the work that it takes to do that. So, do you need an app? Yay, nay. Or where do you, where do you fall in there? And then last but not least, just how do you leverage technology regardless of an app, but how do you leverage technology to actually deepen the roots within the communities that you’re building? Mm-Hmm. . So if y’all want to know the answers to any of those things, that’s why you should stick around. Now, let me formally introduce to you, Josh, a lot of words. So please meet Josh Pillar, he is the c o of Juno. He has over a decade of experience in the tech and connectivity industries.
AJV (03:57):
Lots in the a virtual event space, which I think he should also share some of his background that , cuz many of you will know some of the people and platforms that he has worked with, but also as a software engineer. He’s worked with people including Estee Lauder, GoPro, hp, United Nations you know, if you didn’t need more renowned brands, , I think you didn’t probably, you’re good there. But generally speaking we chose to go with Juno on our very first call with his team just to give a testament to who he is and the team he has. And they said well, just so you know that on every single call, the very first thing we wanna do is go over our core values. We wanna share with you our core values. And as they were going over our core values, our team was like texting behind the scenes going, did you send them our core values? As I swear I didn’t, I’ve never seen this before. I don’t know what they’re doing, . And their core values almost mimicked our core values to a T And that’s when we knew like, this is a team that we need to, to work with. So Josh, welcome to the show.
JH (04:56):
Goodness gracious. Thank you so much for having me. I’m excited to share time and ideas and talk about the power of community and people.
AJV (05:04):
Yes. And I know you’re probably like, that’s the longest intro ever. You could have cut off four minutes, however, think this is gonna be a great conversation. So I’m gonna start in reverse order Okay. Of all of these questions. But before we get into that, can you just give people a little bit of insight of all of this awesome stuff that you’ve been doing for personal brands and companies behind the scenes. It’s like that bio does not do you justice whatsoever in terms of all the things that you’ve actually done. So help our audience get to know you.
JH (05:35):
Yeah. You know, I my bio is kind of over the river and through the woods. You know, you, I I quick bio grew up, the son of a preacher man was in that world, didn’t really know what else to do. I went and got my divinity degree in New York, right outside of New York City. Started a church at 23, grew up to about a thousand people. Started to feel like, gosh, like there’s what is, what would I do if I wasn’t doing this? Mm-Hmm. , and it’s probably a lot of your listeners why they found themselves where they are. They probably found themselves going, wait a minute, what would I do if I wasn’t doing this? And passion and vision and purpose begin to evolve in your heart, the listener. And you said, I’m gonna go be an expert in this field and I’m gonna teach people to be great in it, and I’m gonna expand this vertical.
JH (06:25):
And for me, it was a similar thing. I, what would I do if I wasn’t a pastor? And, and maybe you can relate to this as a listener, you grew up with a family that was kind of doing a family business, if you will. Mm-Hmm. You know, maybe it was my dad was in lawn care, or an engineer, or what restaurant business, whatever it was. And then maybe you go, wait a minute, maybe that’s not my story. Mm-Hmm. And so me and a me and a buddy, when we were 27, 28 years old decided we wanted to mobilize people to change the world. I know that sounds kind of whatever but we didn’t even know there was a space out there called the corporate social responsibility space. And so right during the 2007, eight 2007 and eight housing mortgage crisis, we launched a do good platform called Profits for Purpose that helped mobilize employees to give back time and money.
JH (07:11):
And yeah, we grew it up. We had over a million global employees accessing the platform. Those, a lot of those brands you mentioned, GoPro, Estee Lauder, staples, N F L, all sorts of groups. I always just believe in the power of community. And so I begin to build bra products for brands all around mobilizing people to do something. Hmm. So whether it was gl hp, we built the global sales enablement tool that to this day they still license and use it from one of my companies, the un they have boots on the ground all over this world helping fight genocide, hunger, poverty, and they weren’t able to mobilize those people. So we built a platform to mobilize ’em. And ultimately, my vision has always been how do you mobilize people to do amazing things and whatever that might be. And that’s the power of community.
JH (07:59):
I mean, that really is what it is. And so to me, we always had that big vision of how do we mobilize people? Tech was just part of it, right? It was just a thing. We always say, we’re not a tech company, we’re a values company. Tech is just a, is a, is a tool that you use to enable a vision. I love that. Yeah. And I think when you think about it bigger than that, you kind of missed the point and you mission drift and you kind of forget why you’re doing what you’re doing. And so for me, it’s everybody listening has a vision, has a community, has a vertical they care about. And the question is, what are the tools that we need to create radical change? And so tech has been that tool for me over the last 12, 15 years.
JH (08:41):
It’s, I’ve traveled the world, literally worked with amazing global brands, worked with a lot of really neat individual people, some amazing people. Like maybe some of your listeners know Lisa Turkers. We built her app. She’s one of the most phenomenal leaders I’ve never been around. We built Catalyst was a big group we built for a ton of their people. So we were in a lot of those faith-based spaces fortune 100 spaces. We’ve done it all from soup to nuts. And we’ve learned a lot from folks that have said, Hey, I’ve got an audience of 2000. You know, when we launched Lisa’s a app, I’ll never forget it. We trended number one in the app store for three days, which is an incredible thing to do for downloads. And you think about, you hear these things, oh my gosh, we trended in the app store. We did put 2 million people, active users on that app. That’s
AJV (09:29):
Amazing.
JH (09:30):
So, which remind me to come back to that because I think that there’s a, there’s a, there’s a strategic message I want to share about how and why to use technology. And I’m gonna use, I’ll use that as a use case cause I think it’ll help everybody listening. But yeah, we, we found that technology was a great tool. It was a great utility, which we’ll talk about in a minute to execute a bigger purpose. So that’s kind of what’s brought me here. I’ve done TEDxs, I’m a US state department, global ambassador for entrepreneurship. Oh man, it’s just been a wild ride all from just being the son of a preacher man. So it’s been a fun time. Yeah. Know
AJV (10:02):
What, you should really set smaller goals, you know, it’s like really do less Josh. You know, I love that though. I’m actually reading the Circle maker Uhhuh. Yes. Myerson. And one of the things I love, he says that setting big goals honors God. Mm-Hmm. And I love, cause the bigger you set them and the less likely they are to happen, when they do happen, then you know who gets the glory and the it’s cool. They are, the more that you can honor and glorify God. And I just, I think that’s so cool. And I love this idea. It’s like, you know, I hear people say all the time, you know, it’s like, oh, social media’s bad. Oh, technology’s gonna be in this generation. It’s ruining our kids. And it’s like, no, I agree with you. It’s like, no, technology’s a tool, just like social media is a tool. Food is a tool, right? Yeah. It’s like our cars are tools. No one says cars are gonna be the death of our generation. Right.
JH (10:56):
Right. Right.
AJV (10:56):
They’re tools. Right. And it’s like they can be used for good or bad. It just all has to do with the intention. So why don’t we just kind of start there. It’s like you said this, it’s come back to like how and why to use technology. And I think that’s a good general place to start.
JH (11:13):
Cool. You know what’s funny about my mom and, and, and dad, they’re getting into that fourth quarter stage of their life. And I, I have a, I have a ritual. My folks live in Anaheim Hills, orange County. And so I have a ritual that every night I’m there, I drink whiskey with dad. And every morning I take walk with mom mm-hmm. . And so that’s kind of our thing. So I I, every single time my mom and I walk five miles together and it’s just a matter of time until this world isn’t what it used to be, it’s apart. Now he’s gonna have to pull her back and say, wait a minute. And I, and I think here’s the thing that I would say, and then, we’ll, I’m gonna get further nette, it’s not going away. Hmm. Okay. So you can throw your hands up in the air and you can call it evil, and you can go down that rapid trail as deep as you want.
JH (11:58):
It’s not going away. And so now the question is, and so I raised 13 million from Insights Partners. It’s the largest software only BC in the world. They have 200 billion under management. And I, through total random Niff God we raised from their co-founder, a guy named Jerry Murdoch, who Richard Branson officiated his wedding. If that puts any context into like, you know, I’m raising money from this guy that like literally chases where the snow is with his private jet to extreme ski. Like they make movies out of these people. Yes. And I remember when he was working with me on raising capital, positioning the brand, he kept saying, technology’s a utility. It’s a utility. The most powerful technology tools are utility. There’s something that you can get use out of mm-hmm. Hmm. . And so you think about it like, what apps do you use a lot?
JH (12:52):
Well, I use my app, my, my Maps app. In fact, now it’s to the point when when I get into my car, it tells me it, it goes, you’re either going to the Crosby Club, which is where I golf, you’re going to Church of rb. That’s where our family goes to church. You’re going to star it knows based on time where you’re, where it’s Spotify is like, Hey, it’s Friday. It’s your country mix. It’s been a long week. Like, here’s some new songs that we think you’re gonna, like, what’s happening. Technology is becau it’s a utility. It’s a tool to make something happen and make your life easier. And so when you think about technology, you think about it from a utility standpoint. How is this a utility to help my community do something they already wanna do better, faster, more efficiently? I want to drive to this location.
JH (13:44):
This map’s gonna say, this is how you should get there in the fastest way. I want to listen to music. This app’s gonna tell me the music I don’t even know existed. I’m gonna love that in the fastest way. That’s what tech is. It’s a utility. And so you think about your community and your audience. So Lisa Turkish has told you I was going to use her as an example. She had, she’s brilliant. She had this idea, she’s like, I wanna do the first five. I wanna own the first five minutes of all of my audience’s day. Mm-Hmm. , which I love that vision to you. Like, I want that time. That’s the time I want. And I wanna build a product that says, in the first five minutes of your day, I’m gonna help you do what you want to do. Get your mindset right, focus on the Lord, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
JH (14:28):
But it was, it’s the most utility, one of the most utility apps we’ve done. And it’s, it’s still to this day, I think averages a couple million people on it actively, which is phenomenal to think about. But you gotta look at your audience and go, what is it that you are trying to accomplish? And what is the, the hammer and the nails and the screwdriver and the wrench that you need to do that? Mm-Hmm. . And if you can think about it that way, you can start thinking about utility. And again, do I need an app? I don’t know. It’s the wrong question to ask. The question is, what does my audience need to accomplish?
AJV (15:06):
So good.
JH (15:07):
That’s the question you solve that maybe you need an app, maybe you need an airplane, maybe I don’t know what you need. But the problem is we always think technology is gonna solve the problem. Oh, the problem. We haven’t even defined
AJV (15:21):
. Right. Wise words there, Josh. It’s like, that’s so true. It’s like, I totally agree. It’s like often we jump to it because it’s what’s trendy versus actually going, wait, do I even have a problem this could solve? I don’t do I even have a problem? Don’t know. But everyone else is doing it, so I I should do it too. Yeah. And instead of trying to solve problems, we just jump on bandwagons
JH (15:44):
And it’s just, and and all of a sudden we’re like, my app sucks. The app, the company sucks. And you’re like, do I suck? I mean, who knows? Every, maybe everybody does. Maybe nobody does. Maybe we just didn’t identify a problem. Yeah. I was, I’ll never forget, I was sitting in the CEO’s office of a, I don’t know, me, half a billion dollar company. It wasn’t huge, but you know, big enough. And I was sitting in his office and he goes, Hey, I’m, I’m looking at signing this contract for this app, but I’m staring at this proposal going, I would never use this. And I said, my God, I’d hope not. I’d hope you’re too busy to use this, this you are not our target audience.
AJV (16:20):
Yeah.
JH (16:22):
You know? And he goes, oh my gosh, I never even thought about that. The question is not would you use this? The question is, would your audience use this again, icp, you know, our ideal customer profile, who is this person? Would they use it? And so when we look at your community, we go, what does your community need? Some of it might need leadership coaching, some of it might need emotion. I was just got off this podcast, AJ in this group called Happy. It’s phenomenal. They all they are is a listening for hire company. They’re not trained psychologists. You literally, at scale, they’re creating listeners. I love
AJV (17:00):
This . Which,
JH (17:01):
Which I can, I can open this, I can open this up to our AI conversation in a minute. But I was just on this podcast, these guys out of Manhattan, and they asked me to come on as an exec. How do you listen as an executive? And they go, we we’re literally scaling listening. Hmm. And you, their audience just needs somebody to listen. So it determines the type of app you build, the utility that you use. Is it just audio streaming? Is it video? My audience needs to be heard. Yeah. Well, my audience needs to be leadership coached. My audience needs to understand you know new law term, whatever it is. You gotta start with that mm-hmm. and, and not worry about do I need an app? Worry about your community.
AJV (17:48):
Hmm. That’s so good. And you know, it’s we had at this conversation, a good friend of mine has a custom app creation company called App name’s Amanda Mariachi. She lives in Denver. And you know, I had her on the podcast, I don’t know, a while back. And one of the questions that, you know, she had said is, the problem with building custom apps is that at the end of the day, it’s always gonna be more expensive than what you wanted it to be. It’s never gonna have a hundred percent of the functionality that you want. Sure. And somehow it’s always my fault, right. As the developer, as the builder, and Yep. Said, the truth is, is an app only works if you know exactly what you want it to do. Mm-Hmm. , and most people don’t. So they spend all the time during creation trying to figure out what should this app do, which is why it’s always over budget.
AJV (18:38):
It’s over time. And at the end of the day, we’re like, we gotta call it, and then we finish an incomplete project. And she goes, yep. That’s often what an app building experience looks like. And it’s why we say no. It’s like, if you don’t know exactly who your audience is, what your business model is, if you can’t tell us that in the beginning, then we won’t work with you. And it’s exactly what you just said. It’s, it’s not do I need an app? It’s, could an app solve a problem that my audience has, because I know what the problem is and I know who my audience is.
JH (19:07):
And that’s how you grow an audience. I mean, it really is. It’s how, you know, it’s like anything. I mean, let’s go back to this listening group. You know, they, one of the things they brought me on, you know, they’re like, Josh, how many times do your exec, you know, your, your people just, I just wanna be heard. I just, I just wanna be heard. And, and I’ll tell a great story when I was I remember as the rise of Millennialism comes into the marketplace, and as a, as an ex, you know, GenX guy I’m wired a little bit different than millennials, but I’ll never forget this one guy came into my office and he goes we’re talking, and, and he goes, oh, I gotta tell you about this new company. I started, one of my employees in the middle of the day, , he says, he says, Josh, you gotta tell about this company. I started and I go, tell
AJV (19:52):
Yeah. Tell me, tell me
JH (19:54):
You, you started a company. And he goes, yeah. So he kind of tells him about it. And I go, when, when do you work on it? And he goes, no. All throughout the day, I’m like, so wait a minute, when I’m employing you to run my company, your starting one working on yours. Mm-Hmm. . And he’s like, yeah. And you know what, to this day, Taylor still works with me because guess what? Taylor gets his work done. Yeah. And Taylor crushes at his job. And Taylor just has the ability to be amazing. And my point in telling you that story is learning to listen and not defend and not define, and not all these things allows you to see a bigger picture and a bigger opportunity. And I think for a lot of us who probably have lost the discipline of listening to our audience, and we’ve become so conditioned to tell, especially as thought leaders, right?
JH (20:45):
Like, we feel responsible, like, yeah, you are here because I’m a thought leader in a space and, and I am the one you need to listen to. And so I’m gonna make a bunch of crap up and hope it’s right and every, you know, whatever else, right? And like, wait a minute, the art of listening is going to educate you on how to lead. Remember, you’re being paid to lead not to talk. And so a huge part of what you can do in leading is listening so that you know how to lead mm-hmm. . So I think going back to that from a product standpoint, it’s like, Hey, what are we trying to do here? And then what utilities, what hammer and nail and screwdriver and wrench do we need to do that faster and better so that we can, so that all of our audience comes back and goes, oh my gosh, you guys are amazing, yada, yada, yada. Anyway, I can be redundant. I love
AJV (21:33):
That. But I think that’s, you know, we can apply that same conversation, not just to technology or an app, but, and anything, right. It doesn’t, it’s like even starting out, it’s like, I was just, as you were thinking as you were talking, I was thinking about, you know, the journey that we take customers on and brand builders group, and it’s like what we call finding your brand d n a are these six components. It’s the foundation of your personal brand. And one of those six components is what’s your business model? And are other words, what’s your primary business model? How do you make money right now? And then what do you want it to be in the long term? And it’s so interesting that for most people, most of that decision happens in a very small group setting that involves none of their clients. Mm. Mm-Hmm. , right? And it’s like, we’re always like, you don’t have to ask an abstract question, just go ask your audience. Right? It’s true though. So go ask who your clients are. Do a focus group, just call up one of your former customers. Walk this through with them. And it’s like, for some reason, I think a lot of us feel like, well, we can’t ask our customers. We’re the ones who’s supposed to know. It’s like, oh, no,
JH (22:42):
I don’t know where that came from. I’m supposed to know when you’re supposed to listen. That’s what you’re supposed to do. That’s what you, that’s what you’re supposed to do. You’re not supposed to know. Mm-Hmm. supposed to listen. Then you’ll know. And I’ll tell you a story. When, when I started Juno it was in the height of the, I mean, the pandemic, literally lockdowns happened here in California in February. By March we were designing wireframes to go into the virtual world. Why I had no interest in it. Multiple clients from Michael Hyatt company to hp to others said, we don’t want another platform. We love your community platform. We love your learning platform. We don’t want another one. Could you create an all in one solution? Mm-Hmm. , could you create a solution where we could do virtual roundup meetups, et cetera, et cetera.
JH (23:33):
We could do online learning, credentialing, where we could do community. Could you create that? And I remember I went back to my, my guys, I was like, guys, the customers asking us to create an all OnOne solution, we should do it. Now we’re in conversations with a big partnership with the company, and I was talking to their cfo F and they’re, I don’t know, they’re probably a half a billion dollar company. They’re worth multiple billions of dollars. And, and I said to ’em, I said, you know, it’s interesting when we got into this, I knew virtual only was gonna commoditize and evaporate. And so we needed a, we needed a more holistic solution. And he sheepishly laughed and said, we bought a company that we watched evaporate from 21 million in revenue to zero. Think about that. 21 million in, in, in, in, in revenue to zero.
JH (24:19):
Wow. Was I some savant that knew that I know that. Or did I listen to that? Mm-Hmm. , I listened. And then all of a sudden everyone’s like, you’re so smart. You, you saw where things were going. I was like, they asked. Yeah. I built it. You know? And so I think it’s a great leadership and, and this works really well in technology. It works in any business decision you’re gonna make because, oh, I’ll throw a bunch of marketing dollars, I’ll throw a bunch of tech dollars, I’ll put a bunch of r and d dollars maybe. Mm-Hmm. this conversation is, is is, you know, agnostic of, of variable set. It’s, it’s a fundamental way of leading your business that says, I’m gonna listen, then I’m gonna create utility.
AJV (25:02):
I love that. I think that’s such a good reminder. Like I said, this is not just for technology or apps. This is just building your business, growing your business, leading your team. Listening, listening matters. Surprise. Right.
JH (25:14):
I know. Shocking.
AJV (25:16):
Surprise. Now on that, I loved what you said earlier, and I wrote this down, is, you know, it’s like technology really at its best use is helping people do things more efficiently. Do them where it’s, you know, easier, faster, smarter. Mm-Hmm. . And I think that’s where this conversation of AI has kind of entered in. And I’m coming off of the heels of spending two days with our community here in Nashville. We had one of our quarterly mastermind meetups this past Thursday and Friday. And inevitably this question always comes up of, are you guys using it? How are you using, what do you think about it? And yeah, sure. It’s like, of course I’m using it. Yeah.
AJV (25:59):
We, we, it’s like, and I love, and I don’t remember who told us this, but this was some interview that we had with someone who is smarter than us who said technology is only scary when you don’t know how it applies to you. Mm-Hmm. , right? Mm-Hmm. . So what you need to do as quickly as possible is figure out how can this help you and then embrace it. And so it’s like, well of course we’re using it. It’s like one, it’s, cuz I know all of you are gonna ask us are we using it? And how are we using it isn’t helpful. But here’s what I have found is like it is doing exactly what you said, it is helping me be smarter, move faster, and get things done in a more efficient manner. That’s right. And that is incredibly helpful and useful. Right?
JH (26:43):
It’s, so let’s go back to what we said. It’s not going away. So you can get scared and you can throw your hands up. You can talk about living in an al you know, an alternate community that doesn’t do parallel communities. I hear people talk about this all the time and I’m like, you know, all, all the conservatives will live over here and everybody else will live over here. We’ll just live in parallel societies. You know, it’s not gonna happen. Mm-Hmm. or I’m not gonna be on that ranch. I’m not, I’m not interested that I wanna live my life. It’s not going away. Let’s talk about instead of starting with fear, let’s, we’re always scared when we can’t see the end. Right? And, and that’s really where it is, right? It’s like you could walk down an alley and it’s dark and it’s super scary.
JH (27:27):
You could walk down an alley in the middle of the day, you don’t thinking of it because you can’t see where it’s going. And that’s where we’re right now with ai. We don’t know where it’s going. And instead of seeing the good of it, the brain is wired to protect itself. And so we are seeing all the bad, right? Mm-Hmm. , I was just listening to the president of Microsoft talk about how AI is now mapping against pancreatic cancer, which is the leading death of men. Wow. And it can actually study patterns in your body to know if that’s forming. Cuz it’s almost impossible to know early stage pancreatic cancer. But AI is, is is being able to do that. Well, that’s kind of cool if you’re a dad or a grandpa or you know, you wanna lib, it’s kinda a cool thing. So there’s that.
JH (28:11):
Gimme the other thing, and I’ve been saying this to my wife for years ago, Kim, our boys, I have two boys, crews and Crosby, they’re 1113. I said, they are gonna have EQs through the roof because that is that, or they’re gonna be plumbers because those are gonna be the two jobs the future is gonna have. It’s gonna be working class trade jobs because you can’t machine learn that or it’s gonna be soft skills. And my mind bent this morning, I didn’t even, I got asked to be on this executive that listened thing from a big c e outta of Manhattan. And so I was like, yeah, sure, I’ll do that Ben, no problem. I get on and all of a sudden this guy gets on, he’s a c e of happy, which is this listening thing. And I’m like, dude, I’ve been saying for years future jobs are gonna get professional huggers listeners.
JH (28:58):
Like, because you automate these tasks. Yeah. What’s left? It’s hu it’s human need. Mm-Hmm. . And so if, if the future was human felt need jobs, well that’s so weird. Yeah. Well guess what? Sitting behind a computer that didn’t exist back in the 18 hundreds would’ve seemed kind of weird. Yeah. So we don’t know what the future job world looks like, but like we always reinvent the future of work and that’s how life works. And so I think we look at it and go, wait a minute, if this tool what it can help us with predictability with speed to outcome, what it does, it begins to open up our lives to more opportunities and more things that we can do. And so when I look at ai, I go, look, it’s not going away. It is gonna be a betterment tool. Is it scary? And is is there, is is there, is there gonna be evil actors involved in it? Yeah, there is. Mm-Hmm. . Yeah, there is. And so was it with
AJV (30:02):
Other things in life? Yeah.
JH (30:03):
It doesn’t go away. I mean, do you remember, I don’t remember. It wasn’t there, but when the TV came out, I remember my parents saying, and I don’t, I mean I was raised like very religious rights. I don’t know how many did folks listen in, have a religious background or not. But this was how, you know, Satan was finally giving able speak to the whole world and introduce the mark of the beast or whatever. But tv here’s how it was radio first, then tv, and then the internet. And you go, okay, we can doom and gloom till we’re dead in the face mm-hmm. , or we can understand that, that how are we gonna use these to strengthen our communities Yeah. To mobilize our people for the things we care about. And I didn’t mean to digress there, but I just mean we can, we can get as scary as we wanna get about something.
AJV (30:44):
Totally.
JH (30:45):
Or we can flip the light on and say it’s, it’s a hallway, it’s an hour. I mean
AJV (30:49):
Yeah. I liken that too. It’s like, it does not matter what it is in life. It can be used for good or bad relationship. It’ll be, are healthy and unhealthy. Food is good and not good. It’s real and artificial. It’s like we can make anything good, bad, and honestly we can make anything bad. Good. That’s right. Bad is where I just, I had this podcast interview earlier today with a gentleman named Damon West and I loved what he said. He goes, the future is defined in only one of two ways, fear or faith. Mm-Hmm. fear is you have these, you know, doom and gloom, like something bad is gonna happen and you’re, you know, have all these things associated with that or it’s, something’s good gonna happen and it’s faith. It’s just fear or faith. It’s good or bad. And I think, you know, if I, when I sit here and think about like, some of the perks of technology and AI and in, you know, in this particular case, like we chose to build this app with Juno for two main reasons.
AJV (31:47):
It was we needed to consolidate Yeah. All of the different platforms into one. And that was something that our community has been saying for years and it’s something our team has been saying for years is when do we have to stop logging into one more place? Yes. Yes. And it’s cause like we were scrappy when we were building this. We don’t have investors, we’ve been self-funded and it’s like, well it’s not the best but it works for now and we’ll upgrade when it’s time to upgrade. And so it was consolidation and then organization. Mm. It was consolidation and organization of, you know, we just believe like regardless if we’re right or wrong, this is our belief is that people don’t pay for information anymore. Hmm. No, it’s for free. They don’t but they do pay for organization.
JH (32:33):
Mm.
AJV (32:33):
And they pay for application. Yeah. But it’s like, we don’t pay for information. You can get that for free, but often you don’t get it in the right order. And so you’re trying to piecemeal it together and you can do the right things in the wrong order and it will blow up in your Sure.
JH (32:47):
No doubt.
AJV (32:48):
And so that was our whole thing is like we need to consolidate and organize and then our team is the one who helps to apply and it would like, and that was like, that is why we built this app. And you know, one of the reasons we chose Juno is because of some of the AI components. Yeah. That did not exist in the other platforms. And yeah, one of the things that our community wants is they want a little bit of this done for them. It’s like, I don’t want to have to tell your team who I want to be introduced to. I wanna log in and I want someone to tell me
JH (33:21):
Like exactly
AJV (33:22):
Based on your profile, here are the five other members that you should connect with in this community. That’s so
JH (33:28):
Cool. Yeah. And let me share with, with our listeners, like how I kind of architect that engineered it because it’s gonna go back to the utility. So I created this thing called human interest modeling and, and what it was when it said, when you onboard onto our platform, we want you to declare what you’re interested in. Mm-Hmm. . So think about this through the lens of your brand. Whoever’s listening, I’m interested in organizational leadership speaking you know pipe fitting, I don’t know, whatever it is that people do, I’m, I’m declaring to the platform, this is what I’m interested in. However, the platform has all sorts of stuff. And then you get in there and you start discovering there is other things that you’re interested in. Why is that little search, that little magnifying glass on Instagram? How many of us listened to flip through there?
JH (34:19):
Next thing you know, we’re on a rabbit trail of a yacht and the next thing you know, it’s more yachts and it’s golf. And next thing you know, if you look at that now that’s a complete profile of what you’ve discovered that you’re interested in. Not declared mm-hmm. . But the more you declare it, the more it fills it. So declared and discovered tags builds it and then it brings three things, content, experiences and people. And so we begin to say, Hey, we want you to tell us what you’re interested in. We took it to another level, not another level. Your platform does this where we say, we ask this question, what do you think you could give to this community? And what would you like to learn from this community? And the cool thing is like somebody comes in and then we help them select, right?
JH (35:05):
So it’s like, oh, I think I could really help with public speaking with research papers. I’m just making stuff up. And then somebody else comes on and goes, gosh, I’m the worst at research. I need to try to, I need to try to learn that. And all of a sudden the system’s like, Hey gosh, and AJ you guys should connect cuz AJ’s awesome at public speaking and you wanna get good at it and you’re really good at research and Jill over here really wants to get good at it. And all of a sudden, what is that? That’s utility that’s valued. To your point, that’s organization, that’s ai. Mm-Hmm. , that’s basic AI modeling where you’ve got variable steps that are weighted, that are learning the profiles of people and bringing them together. That’s, that’s called generative learning. Generative ai, you’ve heard that term. It’s generating information so that it can make it smart. That’s what it’s doing. Why would we not want that? No. I want to get back on to some forum and not know who’s talking what and everything else and No, it makes sense. It makes your life better.
AJV (35:59):
Yeah. It is. Back to, it’s like, and under, in order to use it, you have to understand it. You don’t have to know all of it. But it’s, I know that there’s a million ways that I could be using AI right now. I’m using it in five different ways, but it’s changing my life. It is giving time, back, minutes back that I can reinvest in other things that are important. Saving us money. It’s like there’s so many things that, you know, just to that point of it’s, you know, you only fear what you don’t understand. Even if it’s at the micro level of like, okay, I understand how I can use it for this one thing. Somebody is Yeah. And it, it that’s very much, you know, this conversation around technology in general and the app. And before I forget, cause I know we’re almost outta time if you guys are listening and you’re like, okay, I like this technology conversation and I’m curious about this app and that is something that I, you know, I, I do wanna explore, I wanna tell you guys where to go to learn about Juno.
AJV (36:51):
So you can go to juno live.com, that’s their website. So juno live.com. When you’re talking to their team, tell ’em that you heard about it through this podcast. We’re trying to do a really good job of tracking how we connect people. Don’t be surprised if there’s an AI component to this podcast in the near future that will do that for you automatically. That this is this one way to get connected to Juno. But Josh, if they wanna connect with you and they just want to follow you and learn more about you and learn from you, where’s the best place for them to go?
JH (37:23):
Yeah. I mean obviously jump on Instagram or LinkedIn. I mean those are awesome places to hang out. I do a a weekly email called Monday Motivation through I think josh hoen piller.com. You can sign up for it. I think we still have landing page up. I have a few thousand people that get that weekly. And it’s just honestly just my musings on leadership and life and, and things I’m learning on, on how to be a better listener, how to be a better leader how to build more utility in everything that we do. So yeah, come hang out, let’s get to know each other.
AJV (37:55):
Yes, and I’ll put all of that in the show notes too. And there’s so much to Josh that we did not cover today. This was so much about technology, but he has this awesome mastermind. You’re doing coaching, you’re doing so many, you’re speaking like you do so much more than what we talked about today. So we’ll have to have you come on another time to talk about, you know, part two of all things Josh, and you know, I just so appreciate you coming on and talking about this and for you guys listening one I just encourage you to, to learn more if, like, if you are trying to explore how do I use technology or an app to deepen the, you know, relationships in my community and isn’t app the right thing that I could just personally say, we’re paying for Juno, we’re using Juno. Highly recommend it. Their team has been awesome to work with. So you just get major accolades from our team, you, but then more than that it’s just to explore how technology can help you be better at what you do. Yeah. And I think that’s a really important thing. So Josh, thank you. Thank you for your time today. Thanks for your wisdom. Loved having you on. Oh,
JH (38:56):
Thank you. Pleasure was mine. And love everything you guys are doing and can’t wait to get to know you even more.
AJV (39:01):
Likewise. And then everyone else who’s listening, stay tuned for the recap episode that will be popping up later this week. We’ll see you next night.
JH (39:10):
Talk to you soon.

Ep 393: How to Break Free from Being Busy | Dan Martell Episode Recap

RV (00:02):
Dan Martel, my guy. I gotta tell you, I really enjoyed my conversation with Dan. And I am I’m actually reading his book. I don’t always get to read every book of every author, but I’m, I’m loving it. I’m about halfway through it, and I’ve just really enjoyed following this guy. You know, like the people I follow online, I, I like to really follow people I guess, you know, that I consider are practitioners like, that. They’re actually building really big things in real life. And, and, and it’s, it’s not so much just perception and that, but like, they actually have big businesses and stuff. So I love to sort of follow and learn from. And, and Dan has done that a lot and has a great reputation and we’ve become friends. And I, I really, really enjoyed getting to know him a little bit.
RV (00:49):
And, and and I’m, I’m a fan. I’m a fan. So, you know, obviously the, the theme of his book and everything about Buyback Your Time really brought up a lot of memories for me and around my second book, which was How To Multiply Time. So Procrastinate on Purpose, five Permissions to Multiply Your Time, which I don’t talk as much about these days anymore since we’ve you know, the company that we, we exited in 2018, we had spent more time talking about stuff there. And then Brand Builders Group, the last five years has really been focused on building people’s personal brands. But I thought I would take this opportunity to share some of my favorite time multiplication strategies that came out of my second book. And you know, sort of sync ’em up with some of the things that I’ve been inspired by Dan here, again, to help you get better control of your time and specifically for entrepreneurs, right?
RV (01:46):
And so that’s who this is really for, is if you are an entrepreneur and you’re busy and you’re buried and you’re overwhelmed and you feel behind and you feel like you’re, you know, drowning, or you’re struggling to keep up, like these are the three biggest concepts that you need to know that I think and I know confidently will change everything for you. And the first one is the ultimate premise of how to multiply time. So, by the way, my TED Talk, you can go watch for free my TED Talk. If you just, you know, Google Rory Vaden Ted Talk, you can watch that for free. Or you, if you actually were to watch the Ted Talk or if you were to read Procrastinate on Purpose, my second book, the premise of both of them is the same, right? They’re based on the same content. And to me, this is the, this is the singular big idea that you must understand as an entrepreneur. And if you don’t understand this, until you embrace this, you’re gonna struggle. You’re just, you’re gonna always keep working faster and longer buying into this lie that if you work harder, somehow it will create more time. And it’s not
RV (02:58):
About that. That is not what creates more time. The way that you multiply time is by giving yourself the emotional permission to spend time on things today that create more time tomorrow. You, you give yourself permission to spend or invest time into the thing doing the things today that create more time tomorrow until that switch flips in your brain, you’re gonna struggle, you’re gonna be busy, you’re gonna be buried, you’re gonna be behind, you’re gonna feel like you’re drowning. You’re gonna feel like like you’re going to, to to live consumed feeling like you’re never caught up. And it’s because you have to break free of the paradigm of just urgency. The paradigm of urgency is I have to work faster, I have to do more. And you have to shift to what we call the significance calculation, which is thinking not about, you know, urgency is how soon does something matter, but significance is how long does it matter?
RV (04:02):
What’s the impact of this activity on tomorrow and the next day and the next day? And so you have to start thinking in terms of significance, not just what fire needs to be put out today. You need to be evaluating your dec your, the decisions of how you spend your time through the lens based upon the criteria of significance. In other words, how is this activity, how is this use of my time going to affect tomorrow and the next day? So I can do it today, but if I do it today, I have to then do it again tomorrow. If I, however, forego doing it today, and instead build a system today that can do it, then tomorrow the system will do it and every day thereafter, the system will do it instead of me. And that is the switch that has to flip. This is one of the things that I wrote in procrastinate on purpose, is that the next level of results requires the next level of thinking.
RV (05:08):
What got you here to where you are today as a performer will not get you there as a leader. You, you have to shift. This is a paradigm shift. It is a mental transformation, right? And, and this is the crux. This is what we know is true, that if you don’t make this transition, you’re gonna struggle. And those of you that are members of ours, by the way, we, one of the 14 courses that you have access to from us is called Multiplier mentality. So you, you, if you’re one of our members, you already have access to this course, you can go through, it’s one of our personal development courses. We don’t talk as much about it these days cuz we’re so focused on like the tactical, personal branding stuff. But so that’s the, that’s the first thing is how do you multiply time?
RV (05:51):
You multiply time by spending time on things today that create more time tomorrow. Don’t just do it. If you do it, you’re going to trap yourself into a lifelong prison sentence of having to do it again tomorrow. So instead of doing the thing, build a system to do the thing. Spend your time today, build systems that do the thing, and then tomorrow you will live free. Because instead of spending your time doing the thing, the system that you have built will then do the thing. And there’s basically, you know, five parts to that system which make up the focus funnel, which is the content of my TED Talk and the multiplier mentality course and the procrastinate on purpose book. But that’s the premise. Okay? So that’s the first thing. That’s the big idea. You gotta understand. Second big concept you need to understand is the concept of time arbitrage.
RV (06:46):
Time arbitrage basically meaning you, you, you make your win in the delta. So arbitrage is going, I’m gonna buy something, you know, I’m gonna buy something at X, but I’m gonna sell it at y, right? That’s basically arbitrage is going, I buy something at X, but then I turn around and I sell it at y and I make my money in the spread. I make my money in the delta. Well, that’s what multiplying time, a lot of multiplying time has to do with time arbitrage, specifically in the area of delegation. So the focus funnel from this, you know, the procrastinated purpose book, my How to Multiply Your Time, Ted Talk, and the Multiplier Mentality course, if you have access to it talks about five, the five parts of the focus funnel, eliminate, automate, delegate, concentrate, and procrastinate on purpose, which is where the title of the book comes from.
RV (07:44):
But in, in section three delegate, that is what time arbitrage is all about. Basically going, I am going to buy someone else’s time at X dollars and then I’m going to engage myself in activities that produce results at y dollars. Now, the concept for this, the principle that we teach is called M v o m v O T, it stands for the money value of t of your time, the money value of your time. Dan actually refers to a similar concept in his book. He calls this your buyback rate which is basically going, what is your time worth? So the way you figure out what your time is worth is you take every, you take your income, right? Like just go to your taxable income you know, or if you’re an entrepreneur, you might have to like add back some of your tax deductions to get to like what is your, what is the total amount of money you made last year personally, like for your personal time, whether it was salary or if it was commissions, or whether it was through your 10 K and it was profits or it was dividends.
RV (08:51):
Like if you just go, how much money do I make in a course of a year, all of the sources. And then divide that by 2080, which is the number of working hours in a year that will give you an hourly rate. We call that rate your m v o, the money value of your time, meaning every hour of your time is literally worth, let’s call it let’s just, let’s call it $48 an hour. Okay? So I think let’s just, well, let’s look, okay, a hundred thousand. If you made a hundred thousand dollars a year, okay, divided by 2080 doing this math on the fly here, that’s $48 an hour. I was right. Okay, so that means if you make a hundred thousand dollars a year, you get paid $48 an hour. So the concept of time arbitrage is to then say, what are all the activities that I am doing in my business or in my life that I could hire someone else to do for less than $48 an hour?
RV (09:57):
Then what I do is I go, I’m going to do that. I’m going to hire those people to do those things, right? And this could be everything from an assistant to manage my inbox and calendar. This could be someone to cut the grass, do the grocery shopping, cook for the kids c clean the house. It is doing my social, managing my social media writing copy, doing graphic design. Like what are all of the tasks that you can get done? And you make a list of those for less than $48 an hour. And then you actually hire those people and you go, great, I’m going to arbitrage my time. I’m going to pay them. Let’s say let’s, I don’t know, let’s just use $20 an hour. I am now going to pay those people $20 an hour. And with the hour that I now have where I’m not doing the thing that I hired them to do, I am now going to repurpose that hour into activities that generate me $48 an hour, like selling or like marketing or doing content creation or building relationships or what, whatever it is.
RV (11:04):
Like whatever are the key income drivers of, you know, or the key revenue drivers of your business or the key income drivers for you personally, I’m going to reinvest my time. So part of the issue, again, this is a mental block, this is a limiting belief. This is what holds entrepreneurs back is they go, well, Rory, I can’t afford to pay someone $20 an hour to do those things. I don’t have it. And the answer, you know, the thing that I I need you to know is you already are affording it. You are already paying someone because you’re either paying them at their rate or you’re paying yourself at your rate. So if you are doing that task, you are paying someone for it. You’re paying yourself and you’re paying yourself at $48 an hour, you’re paying $48 an hour for you to do the task instead of paying $20 an hour for someone else to do the task.
RV (12:02):
And so this is how you ratchet up, this is how entrepreneurs ratchet up their income. But if you never learn to do this, then you stay stuck doing tasks at lower rates of pay, and you never free up your time to spend time on the things that pay higher rates of pay, like, you know, selling and, and, and building relationships and doing strategic things and building content and building your brand and personal development and, and, and education and you know, all these things and building systems, right? Building systems is one of the, one of the highest value uses of your time because it multiplies time. So that’s what happens. The reason you’re stuck is you are stuck doing all this stuff both personally and professionally, and you’re paying, you’re charging yourself too much because you are doing it. So you already are paying the money.
RV (12:54):
So that’s the, that is time arbitrage. And it’s going, okay, I’m going to buy someone else’s time at $20 an hour, and then I’m going to repurpose my time into things that do $48 an hour. And this is what, you know, basically billionaires do. All you do is you keep ratcheting it, ratcheting it up, and ultimately you go, yeah, I’m gonna pay, you know, $250,000 a year for a C-level executive to manage this function of my business. That’s a lot of money. And you go, yeah, it is a lot of money, but if you can make a million dollars a year by repurposing the time you would be spending doing that, doing something else, not only are you buying your time back, you’re also creating jobs for other people and you’re buying your freedom. So, but it’s, it takes it’s risk, right? It is risky and you have to have the, you have to first of all get past the mental blocks.
RV (13:44):
You have to think differently. Just like I said, the the next level of results requires the next level of thinking. The way that Einstein said it was, Einstein said, you can’t use the same level of thinking that created the problem to solve the problem. You have to adapt, you have to evolve, you have to be around people who have gone on this journey before you. And I think, I feel like it’s a good time to mention, if you’re not one of our members at Brand Builders Group, you should go to free brandand call.com/podcast and request a call with our team so that we can talk to you about what it looks like because our services are insanely affordable, in insanely affordable. When one, you become a member, you get access to 14 of our courses for less than what most people sell one course for, right?
RV (14:30):
So you know, you, you have in your disposal, in your immediate ability you know, the opportunity to access this education that is worth millions of dollars. And it doesn’t cost nearly as much as you, as much as you might think. So request a call free brand and call.com/podcast and talk to our, our team and we will help you with the mindset piece. But then you have to have the actual discipline to actually go spend that extra time on the activities that drive more income, and that takes risk and that takes discipline. And oh, by the way, we have a course called Conquering Impossible Goals, and a book called Take the Stairs that helps you with that and helps you build your discipline and create your ultra performance plan. And if, if you, you know, invest with us at a certain level, you’ll have your own private coach, you get to come to our events, right?
RV (15:20):
So that is the, the, the, the example that is how time arbitrage works. And you reinvesting into your own personal development is an example of time arbitrage. You’re going, okay, I could spend 10 years of my life learning how to become a bestselling author, or I could invest a couple thousand dollars and brand builders group can teach it to me in two days and I know it, and then I have it for the rest of my life. That’s time arbitrage. Personal development, self-education is one of the greatest examples of how to multiply your time. It’s getting coaching and, and you’re, you’re compressing time and you could learn it on your own. You could do that, but how long is it gonna take? And what is the M V o, what is the money value of that time? What’s the hourly rate of your time multiplied times how long it’ll take you to figure it out on your own?
RV (16:13):
Can you pay to just compress that time, whether through education or hiring people, time arbitrage. If you can get, if you can get past this limiting belief, if you can, if you can unlock this, this new level of thinking, then your, your mind will operate in a state that allows you to create more wealth. That’s why if nothing else, go watch my TED Talk. It’s free, right? Pay 20 bucks and buy my procrastinate on purpose book. We’ll walk you through the whole thing or become a member of ours and we’ll coach you through it step by step. But you’ve gotta understand time arbitrage to get to the next level. The third concept that is huge for multiplying time is something called the 10 80 10 rule. The 10 80 10 rule. And many people talk about this concept, I certainly employ it. And the way that this works is when there’s a new project, you can’t just hire someone and go, okay, I hired them, they’re gonna do it, and it’s just gonna be perfect and fine.
RV (17:22):
It should be done. Typically, that’s gonna end up at as a little bit of a train wreck. So what you do is you spend the first 10% with them, right? You map out the project, you give them the scope, you, you give them instruction, you lay it out, then the middle 80% is what they do for you. And then the last 10% you come back in and you kind of give them feedback, you tie together the loose ends, you polish it up, and you can like send it out the door. Where people go wrong or experience frustration with delegation is they try to delegate and then abdicate. They try to go, well, I paid this person to just solve this problem and it wasn’t perfect. And so delegation doesn’t work. That’s just not realistic, right? Like, people need more coaching and probably because you have a specific vision of what you want this to do.
RV (18:20):
Now, mathematically, some people will say, well, that’s frustrating because I’m paying someone to do a job that I am still doing. And the answer is yes, kind of. You are still doing part of it, but 80% of it you’re not doing. And here’s the thing, you gotta realize, 80% done right by someone else is always better than a hundred percent done right by you. 80% done right by someone else is better than a hundred percent done right by you. Because even if they only get it 80% right now, you only have to do 20% instead of a hundred percent. See how that works? Like, yes, it can be frustrating to hire someone and they don’t, they, they, you can’t just abdicate it. You can’t just go take this and do this. Very rarely does that happen. But if they can get, if they can carry 80% of the load, you still gotta be there for 20%, but that 80% is freed up for you to now reinvest.
RV (19:32):
So even if you can’t outsource the entire thing, it still makes sense to do this. But this is where most people just can’t get their mind wrapped around it. And, and so, and it doesn’t mean they’re bad people, it it, but it, it means you’re, you know, like your income’s gonna be limited as an entrepreneur and, and you’re gonna be really, really busy. For those of you that have more of an employee mindset, which is fine, right? There’s nothing wrong with it. The beautiful, you know, the hard part about mon, the hard part about being an entrepreneur is you take all the risk, right? You pay out the money, and now you gotta go backfill and make a sale to generate that money, otherwise you’re in trouble, right? So, and you gotta repurpose that time into something that creates more time and more income tomorrow.
RV (20:16):
So you take all the risk, but with the risk con comes the reward. And that’s why you make more money if you’re successful, you make less money. If you’re unsuccessful, the, the advantage of being an employee is you get a consistent pay no matter what, right? The, you don’t take the risk, the, your employer is taking the risk. And if that’s you, that’s fine too. Totally fine. You know, employees are so valuable to everyone, especially to entrepreneurs. But if, if you’re an employee going, okay, I wanna raise my income, one of the things that I would be thinking about if, if I were an employee is going, I wanna be around people and around businesses who are multipliers. I want to be in the proximity. This is one of the reasons why Tony Robbins says proximity is power. I wanna be in the proximity of multipliers.
RV (21:12):
Why? Because multipliers are always going to be reinvesting and they’re always going to be growing. So they may not be able to pay you top, top dollar now, but whatever they pay you, if you can help that multiplier perform at a higher level, they’re gonna reinvest it back into the business, into the systems and into you. And the longer you’re around, the more valuable you are for them because the more you’re helping them multiply time. And so as they ratchet up, you are going to ratchet up with them. So you’re kind of like riding in their wake. And that happens a lot, right? You go, what does Elon mi, what does Elon Musk’s personal assistant make? Or his chief of staff? I don’t know, but my guess is probably a lot more than $50,000 a year because of trust. And, and you know, they know the systems and you know, they know what he wants before he asks for it and the time.
RV (22:07):
So either way, whether you’re on the entrepreneurial path or you’re more on the employee path, be around multipliers. And by the way, if you’re an entrepreneur, even if you’re an entrepreneur, you wanna surround yourself with other multipliers. Case in point, right? Look at our clients, Louis Howes, ed Millet, Eric Thomas, Amy Porterfield, our revenue and my income has gone up. As I have surrounded myself with people like that, as I have served them right, as I have added value to them, I’ve helped them grow. And as a result, they’ve grown and they’ve brought us with them because those people are multipliers, right? So you always want to go, how can I be in the proximity of multipliers? Being in the proximity of multipliers? These are people who are creating jobs, they’re taking risk, they’re paying for results, and their time is worth a lot. And so as their time becomes worth more and more and more, they are able to afford to pay more and more and more, which means they’re gonna hire the people that are in their proximity.
RV (23:15):
So those are, those are concepts that I wish I would’ve understood when I was young. Like I would’ve made so much more money, so much faster. I’d made so much more impact, so much faster. I would’ve surrounded myself, frankly, with a lot of different people than I did. Although I did a, a good job, actually, I’ve done a pretty good job of surrounding myself with successful people. But these are the kind of mindsets it takes to go from somebody like me, born in a trailer park, raised by a single mom. You know, we couldn’t afford boxed cereal to, you know, now six different multi seven figure businesses and two multi, or two eight figure businesses that we have built. It’s the mindset your mind has to change. And so to become a multiplier, you have to learn how to think the way that multipliers think.
RV (24:13):
So those are just three, you know, simple ideas as multiplying time. I mean, again, I wrote a whole book on this subject. It is powerful stuff. It has the power to change your life. So I hope you’ll request a call and talk to our team, get plugged into what we’re doing, or at least stay plugged in here, right? This is, we’re, we’re, we’re giving you free, free insights and inspiration as much as we can to help you multiply your impact, your income to the next level. So share this episode with somebody who needs to hear it. Somebody you know in your life who’s an entrepreneur, somebody who wants to build their personal brand, somebody who’s busy, buried behind, and overwhelmed. Send this episode. Will will you. And if you get a chance, leave us a review on the, on iTunes. That helps a lot of other people figure out if this is the right show. And keep coming back. And thanks for being here. I hope we’re gonna, I hope and trust and am committed helping you continue to multiply. We’ll catch you next time.

Ep 392: How to Build Your Own Media Production Team with Dan Martell

RV (00:02):
So straight up, you are about to meet one of my favorite people to follow online. And I actually started following Dan Martel before we became friends, and I followed him for like a year. I really loved his content because there’s certain people, and I, I follow less than a hundred people total online. And the people that I follow are people who I have deciphered are people who are achieving real results in real life, not just they have lots of followers, or they have a big personal brand, but I’m actually following people who are real life business owners. And I was able to, to, you know, sort that out quickly with Dan. So he is an angel investor. He’s a, he’s an influencer, YouTuber thought leader. He’s also the Wall Street Journal bestselling author of this book. It’s called Buy Back Your Time. And we’re gonna talk a little bit about that.
RV (00:55):
But before that, he founded Scaled and exited successfully three different technology companies within a 10 year period. So in two, in 2012, he was named as Canada’s top angel investor. He invested in companies like Intercom, Udemy, unbalanced all very, very successful companies. And now he runs a SaaS academy and is basically, he has one of the largest coaching companies in the world. He specializes in talking specifically to SaaS founders, which I am not, but we are a recurring revenue business because of coaching. And we also, you know, have a membership component of that, which is like the online version of ours. And so a lot of the principles that apply to SaaS companies apply very much to any recurring type of revenue model. And so I really, really love, love Dan. I believe in his stuff. And then I saw his book, came out, hit the Wall Street Journal, and then he was doing an event in Nashville, and I was like, man, I want to come over and meet you. And we met up. And so anyways, here he is the man, Dan Martel. Welcome to the show, buddy
DM (02:02):
Rory, it’s an honor man. I’ve I’ve been a huge fan of your work and you know, just congrats, man. Like watching all my friends that you work with, the support you, you give them and the, the results they’ve gotten. It just is a testament to the mastery that I know you focus on, you know, when you, when you deliver for people, and it means a lot. I think there’s a lot of folks out there, you know, selling stuff and not delivering, but you know, I could tell within our first conversation that that’s that’s not you. You’re somebody that over-delivers and it’s awesome.
RV (02:35):
Well, thanks brother. And I we really do my wife AJ says this all the time, she says, utilization equals retention, utilization equals retention. And she just is always about over-delivering and getting people using it. And even though, again, we don’t do SaaS, I know that like so much of what you teach is just around that same thing of providing a quality product, making sure people have a great experience using it, training the team to sell marketing. Like all, all, all in. And so I want to talk about buy back your time, okay. The book, but I wanna talk about it specifically to personal brands, which you’re uniquely equipped to talk about. And one of the things that you were sharing with me before we started was how you’ve been applying this principle to your new life as a YouTuber and a influencer. And you know, you’ve gone from being you’ve gone from being an entrepreneur to being an investor, to now also you’re, you, you said, you said something to me, you said, right now you’re really investing in media. So I’d love to hear about what that means and also why at this stage in your career, do you suddenly care about investing more into media?
DM (03:54):
Yeah, it’s an awesome question, Roy. I mean, my, my quick arc was, you know, I, I grew up in a really tough environment, got in trouble with the law at a young age, diagnosed with a D H D, you know, ended up in prison twice by the time I was 17. And in rehab, actually taught myself to code. And that, that literally became my new addiction at that point. It kind of filled the hole that a lot of the you know, the addiction I was, I was suffering with you know, left. And then I got into entrepreneurship, which is this like, beautiful forcing function for betterment, right? Like, if you think of like getting big, like growing a business, if you wanna be more successful in a business, you gotta go look in the mirror. So my, my, my message for a long time was about, you know, like growth and mindset and all these things.
DM (04:44):
And the problem was I struggled with disconnecting from the obsession of building, right? I had two failed companies right out of the gate, 17 again at 19. And it wasn’t until I was 24 that I hired a business coach that essentially showed me how to operate scale, begin with the end of mind, a lot of the principles that are fundamental that I just was lacking, right? I just thought we’d build a product, people buy it, you have a business. And it was through that experience in my third company that made me a multimillionaire that I essentially like crater my life because I was engaged with a woman that it turns out, you know, to have, to have a successful relationship, you actually gotta be present. And I just wasn’t, I, I didn’t know any better. I was so scared of failing because of the momentum I’d built that I I just kept working a hundred hour weeks and I wasn’t present.
DM (05:36):
And eventually I came home one day and I found her in tears in the kitchen, and she just took the ring off and walked away. And it was about seven weeks before the marriage. So that was my wake up call to all of this. And that’s really where the buyback principle, which I teach in my book, which is, you don’t hire people to grow your business. You hire people to buy back your time, because if you do the second, you get the first, but you don’t necessarily get the, you don’t, you know, most, most entrepreneurs build businesses. They grow to hate. So I, I started coaching companies I invested in 15 years ago, this core principle, right? Like I had to learn it for myself. I exited that company, sp and then I went to Silicon Valley and built two venture backed companies and really understood scale and leverage.
DM (06:23):
And I started tweeting and blogging. And that’s kind of the beginning of like the, if you want to call it influencer phase, but I did it as very much from a marketing point of view. You know, it’s like, oh, if you have an audience, you can hire easier, you can get customers, you know, inbound marketing started to pick up back then. What shifted for me recently was, honestly when the book came out a few months ago and it became a Wall Street Journal bestseller, I underestimated the value of a book by 10 x. Okay? Like, and, and Rory, you know, this better than most. It is one of the easiest way to build credibility. So like, I had all this business success, but I don’t know, there’s just something about a physical book that all of a sudden now people see me in a different light.
DM (07:09):
And then what happened as I was doing all this media stuff like Instagram, social media, I have about a million followers across all my platforms, but I was, I was doing just enough. Like I wasn’t, I wasn’t like thoughtful about it. I wasn’t, I would say investing in it. And there was just like perfect tsunami of some friends of mine that I watched essentially, like grow their audiences and see them get access to opportunities to impact people on a level I couldn’t even imagine. I was like, how did that happen? How did you get on national tv? How did you, you know, get a New York Time bestseller? How did you get these, you know, 50 k speaking opportunities, et cetera, or even access to deals, right? And it, it just occurred to me that the, if my goal is truly to, to have an impact to serve at risk youth, which is near and dear to my heart, then it’s, it’s irresponsible of me to not lean into it.
DM (08:03):
Like, it, it, it kind of doesn’t make sense if you tell me your goal is to help people and you intelligently look at how can you help people? Well, the, the, the trade of putting out content and serving literally millions of people and it costs you nothing huge leverage. I’m all about, you know, buy back my time. And then, and then from that opportunities tip of the spear for me to buy companies, which I do with one of my private equity companies I’m involved in, or like coach in SAS Academy or, you know, travel the world and speak, or, and it’s funny cuz you mentioned reoccurring revenue in coaches. That’s actually a big part of the people that have reached out recently because they’ve seen me scale not only SaaS Academy, but like helped other friends of mine in coaching industries just understand the dynamics that are present and just natural in software as a service SaaS, right? So that, that was what shifted is just this realization if I wanna help people investing, you know, dollars and cents into building a media team. And that’s, that’s the identity shift for me. It went from being a marketing function to a media team. So I look at myself as a media person, not as a talent in a marketing function.
RV (09:16):
So, so, so hash that out for me. And, and, and, and also this applies to how does the buyback principle apply to creating lots of pieces of content, which is something that, you know, I’m watching, I’m watching you do, and watching you uplevel sort of the, the quality of what you’re putting out. And so I’m really curious to hear what, what is representative of that mindset shift from marketing, you know, function to media company, and then also in addition to the mindset shift, what is the, what’s the tactical expression of that in terms of how many people are you hiring? And like, what does that mean you building out a whole studio and you’ve got like, tons of producers and like script writers or, or like what does it mean exactly?
DM (10:05):
Yeah, I mean, I, the other thing where I wanna be careful that I wanna scare people away, right? So I’ll give you the like, like low budget version and then I can share what I’m doing. Yeah. But I’m also not ignorant to the fact that, you know, I have dollars and cents to invest and some people may be trying to make more money, but even
RV (10:22):
Though you do have limited of money, you’ve still stepped into this. You, even though you’ve had money, you’ve stepped into this. Totally.
DM (10:28):
Yeah. Yeah. I, I think it’s, it is literally one of the best trades any person can do with their lives. And I think, you know, you’ve seen people like Gary V and many others been screaming at the mountaintop about this and it, and I’ve known Gary for 14 years and it took me this long to finally get, and again, the book was the catalyst, the book came out and I was like, whoa, how, how is this thing helping tens of thousands of people? And I’m not like, talk about leverage. So here’s, here’s the first thing is the whole idea of just capturing what you do, right? There’s this great book called Show Your Work by Austin Cleon. It’s for artists, but I, I really, I read this book and I leaned into it. So for example, I have two cameras on me right now, like on my desk, they’re, I don’t even know what kind they’re, but canon something, whatever.
DM (11:15):
And all my meetings from coaching calls to all hands to investor reviews to this podcast I just, I just click a button on my laptop and it records everything and then it saves it to a Dropbox that synchronizes, right? And it puts it up into the cloud. Now then I have a team that goes through all that footage and they decide like, oh, that was actually interesting. That was not right. So to me, the whole idea of just like start capturing stuff right, is just such a basic idea. A lot of people I know are doing audio podcasts, but they’re not recording video. So, and, and it’s fascinating to me. I’m like, well, you’re already talking to the person, just like, do it on a platform, do it on Zoom, and then just grab that video content and put that out, you know? So that, that was like the easiest thing to do.
DM (12:03):
And then what I started doing to level up the capturing side is now I just hire freelance videographers in different cities. I predominantly go like LA or Vegas or you know, in my own city when I’m doing speak engagements or, or coaching sessions and they’ll just come and, and video record just me. So just now asking for permission, so like when I have clients fly in for, for a v i p day the rule is, is like the videographer will be there, he’s recording me, but not you. And, and none of your stuff will be in the video. Well, all of a sudden I, I’ve take a, you know, a, a six hour day and produce 50 pieces of content that I didn’t have to like go into a studio and shoot right now. Some people are gonna have a hard time with that cuz I don’t think they actually know what they’re talking about.
DM (12:55):
So their content ain’t that interesting. I mean, Rory, that’s the truth, man. They don’t, they don’t know how to tell a story. They don’t know how to make a point. So some people will be like, I feel like I am not as good. But the truth is, is a good editor a good what’s called a times stamper or Clipper, they will find the nuggets, right? And you, and over time what’s cool is like I only see my social media content that gets put out there. Once it goes out, I literally have a creative director that takes care of deciding what he thinks is, is appropriate or not inappropriate and, and puts it out. So I get to consume it at the same time as my audience. But it acts as a feedback loop because I can see what they think is interesting. I can then see what works on social media and then I can go, oh, that message seems to resonate so I can think about that when I’m sharing or talking or doing other stuff. And you can be
RV (13:43):
Surprised by your own brilliance. Occasionally you’re like, wow, I can’t believe I said it. That was really freaking
DM (13:48):
Good. The editing skills, they literally, they’ll take 20 minutes of me rambling and just like punch it into a 35 second reel and I’m like, wow, it made me sound so smart. But that’s, that was good. Yeah, I think, I think the key is just start capturing and then, and and have essentially a videographer and an editor, ideally the same person, like on staff part-time. I think it’s, you know, as much as you have a bookkeeper and you have an assistant, you should probably start thinking about getting a full-time or a part-time videographer slash editor.
RV (14:17):
Yeah. So talk me through the specific like team members. So is that, is it really just, do you think it’s, it starts with one person who’s like a videographer and an editor on staff?
DM (14:27):
Yeah, I think, I think there’s, there could be two components to this. There’s the, the creating the, the reels, the video assets, and then there’s publishing. So there’s the copywriting and publishing side. So you know, at the easiest level following my own, you know, advice in the buyback principle, I would say your assistant can probably write first drafts of a lot of the marketing collateral, right? Like, especially if you have a body of work they can go look at and say, oh, this is how you wrote your newsletter, this is how you write a caption. I mean, truth is with chat g p t, you get a transcript of your video and you ask AI to do it, it’ll get it 90% good, right? Like better than you could write it. You can even say in the tone of somebody you admire like the Rock or Joe Rogan, you can literally ask it to write in a certain tonality that’s appropriate for you.
DM (15:14):
And then you can just come in for a couple hours once a week and just edit that stuff, right? But again, my process is do something till it becomes, you know, timely. So if you’re trying to produce at scale like I am then you start hiring people that are just a copywriter and somebody that manages your social media posting schedule. Because I mean we’re, we’re taking all that raw video and we’re producing LinkedIn posts, we’re producing email copy, we’re producing Facebook posts. We’re literally, all social media platforms are driven from that raw capturing of video for written format and, and email.
RV (15:52):
So, okay. And I’ve heard you mention a couple different terms here and what I hear you saying is version 1.0, it might be a part-time videographer slash editor and your assistant, and maybe your assistant is taking the transcription of the video and using chat G B T to help write the captions.
DM (16:11):
Totally. Yeah. And then scheduling it on social media for publishing the publishing
RV (16:15):
And like they have to go in and schedule it or log in and post it or whatever. So then what about, but then you, you have copywriter, you have like a social media scheduler person, video editor, and then creative director. So at this, at this point then, is that at my
DM (16:34):
Scale? Yeah, at my scale. Because again, the amount of content I’m putting out, I think three reels a day. We’re, you know, I’m spending probably 15 k a month, right? So like a major investment. And I’ve got my creative director, we’ve got one or two video editors. We have one person that just does timestamping. They literally go through because I’ll produce, you know, today I probably have about five hours of capture from all my different calls, podcast interviews. I just did a keynote. So, so somebody’s gotta go through that and just timestamp the clips of what’s interesting to cue it up, up for the editors. And then we have a copywriter, I’m assuming on retainer. Again, my creative direct today cuz I’m all about, and you know, people read my book, I’m all about delegating outcomes, not tasks. I’ve delegated the whole thing to my creative director.
DM (17:27):
They manage their team in budget and then they’re the conversation I have in regards to feedback on, hey, this worked really well. I remember my, my creative director the other day, his name Sam, he goes he goes, Hey man, he sent me a text message with two, two videos. He’s like, there’s this video and this video. And it’s like, this one was good but not great. This one went viral. He goes, you, you need to calm down. And I go, okay, well first he’d asked if I was open to feedback, which the answer’s always yes, but I love his approach . He goes, you gotta calm down man. He goes, I think in this video you were like trying to project, but if you look at these other ones that did really well, it’s just you having a conversation with a friend. And when I saw that, I, all of a sudden now, like right now I’m sitting down at my desk cuz there’s a different tonality if I’m standing up Rory, I don’t know if you have a standup desk, but there’s a different energy, right?
DM (18:23):
So he now is giving me feedback into topic content. Like things that are like, hey, talk more this way. Tell more stories use more feeling words. Like it’s just this beautiful feedback loop. And I think if anybody wants to just become better at communication in general, it’s kind of a life hack because it creates an audience that you can serve, costs you nothing. Especially if you just capture the work you’re doing already. And it is a forcing function and a feedback loop for you to become better at a skill that will transcend anything you could do. I mean, becoming a world-class communicator in the moment where you’re able to pull vocabulary and tell stories and just be on point. Like that’s, that’s the thing that is the X factor, right? When you look at your clients, you’re like, man, they’re really great at what they do.
DM (19:17):
It’s because they practice. They had, they had reps. And that’s what I, that’s the way I look at it is like, it’s just this beautiful kind of feedback structure that just keeps feeding every other project I’m working on in my life. It makes everything else I do easier. I mean now, I mean we we’re adding thousands of people per week on my Instagram account. N now I’m getting people I’ve wanted to connect with start following me cuz they’ve seen something I put out there. I mean that, just talk about speed. I I it’s just, it’s fascinating that it took me this long to figure it out.
RV (19:50):
So, and coming, so coming around, so you have a creative director, a video editor, a times stamper
DM (19:56):
Who, a copywriter and a copywriter. Yeah, and a
RV (19:59):
Copywriter. So four, so really four at, at your current level of scale, you got four. And those are all full-time people.
DM (20:08):
Copywriters part-time times stamper is per hour editor is per project. So yeah, they’re not full-time. I mean you can, again, there’s different levels of quality. You can do some people, you can get people to produce videos for you for like 25 bucks a video, right? Or 15. I mean I’ve seen people, I mean my DM and I’m sure yours are too, they’re just full of people offering to do edits. So you, you don’t have to spend that much, but you’ll also, you know, the results are in what you invest. So if you, if you wanna, you know, have a conversation with, and that’s why my creative director is the ultimate hire because I need somebody that’s really trying to understand the platforms and what’s popping now and gimme that feedback so that we can kind of iterate cuz it’s not just about kind of a set it and forget it. It’s a very creative process.
RV (20:56):
And that person’s full-time the creative director. A
DM (20:59):
Hundred percent. Yeah.
RV (21:00):
Gotcha. And then what about graphic design?
DM (21:03):
Yeah, it’s part of the editor stuff. I don’t even know
RV (21:06):
The video editor does the graphic. Yeah, I
DM (21:08):
Think we have, we have a really strong design template structure that my designer, so I have a part-time designer Rich, who does all my design work. But he’s given like kind of like an asset library to the, the video team so that they can pull from so they don’t have to ping ’em every time.
RV (21:24):
Yeah, I love that. That’s, that’s super helpful just to, to see. But yeah, that’s a big in, I mean, 15,000 a month is a big investment even with chat G B T and everything else that you can use like, and and yeah and doing video editing so you know, you’re, you’re in a couple hundred thousand bucks a year and so you gotta have a way to monetize that. And in your case you do that with coaching. So I’d love to hear how have you applied the buyback principle to scale the coaching business? Cuz obviously that’s the thing that’s gotta pay for this cuz you’re not making, you’re not making $200,000 a year on brand deals and stuff like that. You’re not messing around with that as much as you’re not yet.
DM (22:02):
I mean this is funny, right? It’s like what? Yeah, the amount of opportunities now, like, you know, speaking fees, I think if you can sell tickets to an event, I mean you, you’re in the 25 k plus level, right? 50 K speaking. It only takes a few opportunities to kind of justify those expenses. The brand deals I don’t do yet, although, you know, my videographer or my creative director keeps talking about it cuz like there are certain products that I do love and I just happen to share often because it’s in my world. So like anything you can do to subsidize a media production I think is an interesting thing to consider. Again, financially it’s a different game for me. But you know what’s interesting is I actually don’t monetize my personal brand directly for SaaS Academy SaaS Academy’s. Kind of like how, I mean the, I think there’s two parts of the question.
DM (22:49):
How have I applied the buyback principle to the coaching business? There’s a few ways I will, I will tell you this Rory cuz you know, I’ve, I’ve had a lot of friends that coach, right? It’s, it’s because it’s easy to do. It’s like real estate agent or a social media expert. Like there’s not, the barrier venture is pretty low except most people get stuck in one-on-one coaching, right? And they don’t have an audience, a lot of their customers are through referral. So there’s always this feast or family because a customer comes in, they help ’em get a bunch of results and then they feel like they run outta runway and they go some results. So what I’ve gotten really good at because of my software background, is understanding how to design programming for my coaching clients and, and essentially productizing the coaching in a way that would allow me to buy back my time.
DM (23:40):
So for example, I actually did a video the other day about this. Like I now have a instructional designer that creates all of my growth playbooks. You know, you came to my event at that event two day event, I’m only on stage for an hour and I’m teaching, right? And that even that training at my scale, cuz you know, we have over a thousand clients, it’s a very big organization. I’m not creating that training now I know people listen to that, that, that coach are like, so what somebody else can coach my clients. My answer is yes at scale. Like I just, I just think I wanna bust the belief that coaches think that your job is to be the emotional container for your clients. Your job is to create a framework that your client can see themselves in and then from within that framework understand where they’re starting and give them the sequences of success for them to execute, get feedback on and move forward, right?
DM (24:44):
And I’m just, I’ve always been somebody that like, you know, I read this great book called The Goal Eliah Gold Rat, I believe is his name if I’m pronouncing it right, but it talks about manufacturing and systems design and that’s just, that’s how my brain thinks. So it’s like I always go left to right, raw material, finished product, even if it’s in coaching. Okay, what part can I then get support on? So like in the early days of coaching, it might be having somebody else, you know, onboard the client right? And set the expectations and schedule them up and send the invoices and schedule the next call. So like just having an executive assistant or an account manager help you out, right? Buy back your time from doing 10, 15, 20 hours a week on that kind of stuff. And then over time you might say, well I’m gonna hire somebody to help me on the marketing stuff.
DM (25:32):
Well, we just talked about, and and eventually you might have somebody like, here’s, here’s a great example. My buddy Motown one day he called me up because he was just like really stressed out the amount of work he was doing for all his different coaching clients. He had just did this big launch and had like a hundred new clients. And in that offer he, he talked about like helping them set up and, and you know, work on their Facebook ads, right? It’s just like this amazing offer. He, him as a coach, he’s a business coach, but part of that was the Facebook ads and he was just like overwhelmed. And I asked him a simple question. I said, do you know anybody else that’s a consultant, a freelancer that’s better than you, than Facebook a on Facebook ads? And he goes, yeah. I said, how much would you have to pay that person for their time?
DM (26:18):
And he goes, I don’t know, like a hundred bucks an hour. I go, cool, you have a hundred clients that paid you tens of thousands of dollars a coach with you. You can just pay somebody else to do that part of it and you can still be involved, right? What I call the ten eighty ten rule. The first 10% on the ideation, the creativity side of like the position, the other 80% of setting up the ads and the landing pages and the lead capture and all that stuff. Give that to the, your buddy and then come in at the last 10% to do the review. And that’s the 10 80 10 rule. And I mean this is, this has been around forever. This is how Andy Warhol built the factory of how he painted so many paintings back in the day. He was notorious for it. It’s how you know Tom Clancy, even though he is passed on, still writes books like people, there’s ways to capture the magic and then create systems around having other people support you on different parts of it. And that’s, that’s for me, even in coaching I think is a missing art that would allow a lot more coaches to scale and support more people if they got themselves and their beliefs out of the way.
RV (27:24):
Can you just give, hit us with the buyback principle directly? Cuz we kind of skipped over it and jumped, jumped right into it. Just, just like, what’s the main premise of what does it mean to buy back your time? And cuz you, you’re touching on it in different ways, but I’d love to just kind of get it
DM (27:40):
Straight up. Yeah. The buyback principle states, we don’t hire people to grow our business. We hire people to build buy back our time. So that’s fundamental to everything I do. Okay, what does that mean? It means it’s a calendar, not a capacity problem. Most people hire folks to do work in their business, video editors, copywriters, et cetera. But they don’t start with the first principle, which is look at your time, look at your energy and, and buy back things that suck your energy that are low value to pay somebody else to do. So that’s why that’s the buyback principle. But the process is this thing called the buyback loop, which is, which is essentially anytime you feel like your calendar is at capacity, right? And that might be anybody listen to this? Then you do three steps. You go audit, transfer, fill. Okay, audit is doing a time and energy audit on our calendar over the last two weeks.
DM (28:34):
You look at it and there’s a whole process for doing this, but I wanna look at what things light you up. Cuz some things could have lit you up and now take your energy and things that light you up are not there, right? So like look at your calendar for like red or green. Is it red takes your energy green, it lights you up and then put a dollar sign to those tasks. Is it $1 sign? Meaning that, you know, you could pay somebody very little like $15 an hour to do for you? Or is it $4 signs, which is like hiring somebody to do your job, like a c e o type pay and there’s a gradient in between, right? Whatever that is. If you just then take everything that’s in a in the red, that’s a low dollar amount to pay somebody else to do.
DM (29:14):
Typically, if this is the first time you’re doing it’s an executive assistant and you bring all that off your pa your plate, that’s the audit side, then you transfer all those tasks to them. And I teach that in the book. I mean, we can dive in as nerdy as you want to. I love this stuff. And then, then we fill it with things that light us up that make us money. Like I really believe that if people just gave themselves permission, right? Some people feel so guilty asking somebody else to help them, right? Or they have anxiety around having somebody else do things on their behalf delegating, right? They, they in their, their soul, it’s just like they’re so scared somebody’s gonna embarrass them through their work or whatever it is. And, and these people get stuck usually around three, 400,000 a year. They’re, they’re really great at what they do, but they never grow a business.
DM (30:01):
And then the next level is about 2 million a year where they hit this, this ceiling of complexity that they can’t break out of usually about 13, 15 employees because they, they gotta fu you gotta fundamentally change, right? So once you audit your time and calendar and you do this as frequently as you get at capacity, transfer that to other people, then you fill it with things that are going to either one of three things. Either build your skills, like uplevel your skills. So some people are like, well I don’t know how to do that thing. I don’t know how to build a media team. Cool. That’s a skill. Google it, search the books, read the books, go to the seminars, find the experts, learn then it’s beliefs. What are my beliefs around the world and my scarcity mindset and my money beliefs and my people beliefs that are stopping me from expanding, right?
DM (30:46):
Because at the end of the day, the world doesn’t get easier, you get better. So we have to expand our mindset and our worldviews. Then there’s character traits, right? In regards to, you know mental toughness, consistency positivity, your communication skills. These are all character traits of who you are that maybe you just haven’t become the person who can get to that next level. So the whole point of buying back our time is not to go do a four hour work week. It’s to actually become more. And that’s why like for me, I want creators to create, I want people to build mini empires and an empire. My language is somebody that creates a life of unlimited creation. They never have to retire from. That’s, that’s what I want. For every person out there that feels like an artist or a creator or a visionary, I want you to do all of that to the highest level with no hand break on. But the only way you’re gonna get there is if you understand how to buy back your time.
RV (31:46):
Yeah, man, I love that. I, I think even just giving yourself permission to just, I mean, one, one of the one of the biggest epiphanies for me as an entrepreneur was realizing everything that I hate to do someone else loves doing. And they would, they would be happy to do it and just be paid to do it for me. And just like, once you have that, that epiphany, it’s like, man, you are providing jobs, you are transferring money, you’re making your life better. And I, I think it’s, it’s just it’s a, it’s a completely freeing breakthrough in realization to, to when you start doing this and you start really buying back your time. So I love this. I think this is, this is so fascinating, interesting. I don’t want to let you go without asking you a little bit about this is a little bit off topic related to the book, but or maybe it’s not, but I, I wanna talk about retention and, you know, your expertise around SaaS companies and their valuation and going, I have to think that what’s really driving a lot of these valuations is reducing churn, reducing the amount of lost customers every month, the people who are canceling.
RV (33:11):
And I know you’ve seen so many of these, and so I wanted to just ask you a couple, like, if we talk about how do we reduce churn in any type of subscription business. So whether it’s a SaaS company or obviously you obviously have a coaching business, it’s gotta be the same. Like you’ve gotta have some thoughts and some strategies for how to reduce churn. Yeah,
DM (33:35):
I, I really wanna encourage people like pause and go get a pen. Okay? Cause I’m gonna, I’m gonna share it, but , it’s kind of like the thing that I do. I’ve always done it, so I’m gonna talk fast and I’m, and and feel free to, to double click or pause me on stuff. But every, to reduce retention, right? The number one thing we have to look at is cancellations. Okay? So in the software world, we call it the cancellation capture system. Any person that’s leaving a program, a software canceling our, our coaching, we need to ask them why. Okay? Because that’s where the gold lives. Too often people just are too quick to dismiss, oh, they left because they didn’t wanna win or they, they canceled because you know, they weren’t willing to do the work. It’s like, no, find out, you find out their language.
DM (34:24):
Okay? So, so if you collect that information over a dozen clients, then what’s beautiful about that is every product improvement shouldn’t be made unless it improves retention. Okay? First and foremost. So if, so, like, what’s cool is you don’t have to be that smart about how do I make my product better? You literally just have to say, well, the people that didn’t stick around, why did they leave? And use that to ideate around those opportunities. The other thing to understand is there’s this thing called the growth ceiling, okay? And the growth ceiling. If you have a subscription business, I can tell you to the day, Rory, this is what’s crazy cuz it’s math. I can tell you to the day when you’re gonna hit your gross ceiling, meaning that your ability to grow is gonna be capped because as a percent of customers that leave every month, your ability to add new customers to just replenish that pool decays.
DM (35:21):
Like you, you’re just not able to spend fine channels to replenish. So there’s this point, and I can tell you the day and I can tell you the dollar amount, your business will, will essentially hit the ceiling at at that point. And so essentially, based on your current numbers, I know what size of business you’re running, right? It doesn’t mean you can’t make it better, it’s just this is it, right? If I, if I know how many new customers you add, I know how many customers you lose every month, how many you have right now, what you charge per month on average, that gives me that data, right? And it’s a spreadsheet that we’ve created. So then what you do, once you understand why people are leaving, you need to understand what’s a normal churn number, okay? Because, because trying to get a hundred percent retention is impossible and it’s, it’s actually unrealistic and there’s a point of diminishing returns.
DM (36:11):
But in your industry, trying to understand based on the way your model works, what is normal. So if you sell to small to medium businesses, it’s different than mid-market or medium sized businesses or larger businesses, they’re all different. Larger businesses churn less, medium churn a little bit more than large and then small turns a lot higher. So once you understand what the norm is for your world, then you just try to fix it to get to normal. Okay? So that’s like step two. It’s like wire canceling. Let’s fix that to try to get to like kind of best practices baseline. Then there’s this thing, I don’t wanna lose everybody, but it’s a term called expansion revenue. Okay? Expansion revenue is the dollar amount that a, a group of people will end up spending with you. Either through their expansion into a high level program that counteracts what’s called contraction revenue, which is cancellation in downgrades in your world.
DM (37:08):
So if you think about it, you might have a hundred people in January, out those a hundred people, how many people left? How many people downsize, how many people expanded? So if you think of that group of people in January, by December, you know, you wanna get to a place where you are at least, I mean I wanna, I know our numbers, which are the best in the industry just cuz this is my world, but I mean, for most coaching organizations, they wanna be at about 70 to 80% revenue retention, right? Meaning that out of those a hundred customers in January, by the end, if they spent a hundred thousand a month, you’re at 80,000 a month for that group of people, right? So, so that’s where you gotta start thinking about what’s 12 months later. You talk about 12 months later. Yeah, 12 months later.
DM (37:52):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Within an annual period. Cause cuz that’s gonna give you some insights into what we call the, the strategic P three s, the product positioning and packaging, right? So like, what are you selling? How are you delivering it? How are you positioning, who’s the customer? Cuz some people have high churn, they’re selling stuff to the wrong people. And then what’s your packaging in regards to like how your packages work, right? So pricing strategies and kind of like the plans you might put together and like, that’s the next area to focus on. So to give you a sense of like, what’s the gold standard in software, it’s 130%. Okay? So companies like Slack, Salesforce, HubSpot, et cetera, they’re in the 120 to 125% revenue retention. Meaning then that’s why software is so valuable in the market is because if you fix these problems and you really dial this stuff in, it does become an annuity, right? No different than insurance plan or whatever. It’s like it will continue to pay dividends based on a customer. You might have to pay a little bit of money to acquire them today, but your product expands with them and they, they spend more every year, which is a, a really cool thing to watch happen. But that’s, that’s the model.
RV (39:05):
And so you’re, you’re saying, so 130% would mean cuz you’re saying a hundred percent isn’t realistic, but that’s because if you lose 20% of the people in
DM (39:15):
Coaching, yeah, it’s very rare in coaching you’re gonna get that. I would say if you are at at least 80% revenue retention, you’re in the top 1%, 5%,
RV (39:25):
But you could through expansion revenue. So even though 20% of your customers leave the other 80% that stay, if some percentage of those are upgrading to something else, the net revenue number of those of that, like kind of
DM (39:41):
It could, I’ve never, I’ve never, I haven’t seen, yeah, I haven’t seen it yet. Usually what you’ll see is what’s called logo churn versus revenue churn. The logo churn for most coaching organizations, I would say the average is about 40% per year, if not 50% per year, right? That’s the average. Like most people are not good at retaining customers. If you can retain 70%, so you’re churning 30%, then revenue expansion will make up the rest of it. That’s where I get that 85, 80 85 revenue retention. Does that make sense? So I’m taking into consideration accounts leaving and expansion into higher level upward mo motion. But like when I look at most programs, the way they’re structured, you know, a third of the people in this program are gonna upsell into this next level, but that thing’s usually twice as more expensive. But again, there’s still cancellation contraction in that program.
DM (40:32):
So it’s actually an interesting thing like to, to figure out for your business is like as a coaching organization that focuses on subscriptions what is your growth ceiling? If you understand the calculation, like where do we essentially, what’s the, what’s the highest potential output of this engine that we’ve built? And do we wanna invest another four? Like, I mean, I see people all the time, they call me and they’re like, Dan, we’re thinking of spending like hundreds of thousand dollars building this thing. It’s like, for what? They’re like to improve this. And I go, what does that mean long-term? Is that realistic? Like, what’s your ROI on that? And they’re like, well, I don’t really know. That’s the whole point. It’s if you have decent numbers, then the plan is to operationalize that and don’t break anything, right? And maybe add more people. But if your numbers aren’t good, then fix that, then scale back up. But at a certain point, most organizations, especially coaching organizations, there’s gonna be this natural place where they, they end up, right. Some people that’s 60 million a year, some people that’s 6 million a year, right? That’s just the way it is,
RV (41:31):
Man. I love that. I knew you would have awesome thoughts there. We could do a whole nother episode sometime maybe on just coaching retention. But this has been awesome. Y’all, the book is called Buy Back Your Time, wall Street Journal, bestselling book. Dan, where do you want people to go if to connect with you and, and learn more about what you’re up to?
DM (41:51):
Yeah, Instagram’s my favorite. Dan Martell two ELs a Martel, find me on Instagram. That’s my favorite place. I’m on other socials. And then, you know, if you do get the book and it serves, please leave me a review. The team and I are creating a movement around buying back your time. It’s like my, as you know, it’s the topic I’m most passionate about. I don’t think there’ll ever be a day where I’m not excited about trying to teach people how to get their time back to go create more in the world. Cuz I think that’s, that’s what we’re here to do. We’re here to become better versions of ourselves and then share ourselves with the world through our business, through our community, through our church. And I really wanna see people kind of elevate that for themselves using this process.
RV (42:29):
I love it. I love it. Well, I can’t recommend you enough, my friend. Thank you so much for being here and we wish that you the best of luck and I’ll, I’ll, I’ll be following you and cheering you on.
DM (42:40):
Appreciate it, Rory. All the best.

Ep 385: Online Marketing Funnel Fundamentals

RV (00:02):
I love talking about funnels, , that’s such a nerdy thing to say. I never would’ve thought, like years ago I would hear myself say it, but I love it. I love marketing automation, and it’s probably because I hated selling door to door so much , the idea of just calling on people and interrupting them and like bugging people. And so now there’s this whole world that exists of marketing automation where people who are interested can find you and they can come to you and they can self-serve their way through your content to let you know that they’re interested. And I just, I love that. I love sales too. I do love sales. I didn’t, I didn’t love going door to door because it was, it was extremely difficult. But I do love sales and I love selling, but I really love marketing automation and funnels.
RV (00:59):
And of course, you know, that was the topic of the conversation here recently with my friend Lauren. And so I wanted to share with you some of my own thoughts related to funnels and constructing funnels. And I, I thought I would start with a definition of like, what is a funnel really, because there’s a lot of, that means a lot of different things to a lot of people. But in the world of marketing automation and in brand builders groups speak, right? For our company, what is a funnel? Like to me, a funnel is just a series of automated emails with links in them that you can click on that take you to landing pages where you can watch videos which allow you to learn about something to where you might then click on something, click on another link, and then buy something, right? It’s just an automated system of nurturing somebody to making a decision, a financial decision to do business with you.
RV (02:01):
But, you know, there’s a lot of over complication that happens around funnels. I mean, at the end of the day, these are emails that you’re sending that have links in them, right? So you, what are the components of a funnel? They, they’re emails with links. When you click on those links, it takes you to pages. Those pages have videos on them. So you’ve got emails, links, pages, and videos, and ultimately that’s it, right? And then you click another link, it takes you to another page where you put in a credit card information. So the, the, the strategy matters way more than the technology. And that’s a brand builders group mantra that we talk about is, is just the strategy of, of going, how are we laying this out and, and what are we doing? And, you know, before we even get into the strategy, what I wanted to share with you, e even before that would be, is my philosophy. It’s our philosophy. It’s this part of our culture at Brand Builders Group. But our philosophy about not just funnels,
RV (02:58):
But selling online in general and, and, and selling in general, but specifically in the world of content marketing and marketing automation. And it’s, it’s something that we call the rule of 10. And it’s based on another mantra that we believe, which is this trust must take place before there’s a transaction. Trust must take place before there’s a transaction. If you want someone to buy from you, you can’t just think about what are the tactics and the tricks and the technology that I need to use to like get someone to buy. And what you really need to be thinking about, which is the bigger conversation, which like almost nobody is talking about, which is the entire sale, is that before there’s a transaction, there has to be trust. You have to build trust, they have to trust you. They have to like you, they have to believe in you.
RV (03:51):
They have to believe that you can help them. And I think maybe they don’t need to believe this, but I would want them to believe this and I would want you to want them to believe this, which is that you should want them to believe that you actually care about them. That you actually give a crap about them succeeding. That it’s not just about you reaching your hand to their pocket and pulling out their credit card and taking money from their account and transferring it to yours, but that you, you’re concerned about a transformation taking place in their life. And so you’re focused not on just creating transactions, you’re focused on creating trust. You’re not just focused on creating customers, you’re focused on creating fans. You’re not just focused on like creating conversions. You’re, you’re focused on creating transformations for people. And so we, I, I think of this, or we call this, we refer to this as the rule of 10 because you can, even if you get all the technology right, and you do the sequencing, right, and you write the emails properly, which is a big if, right?
RV (04:58):
There’s a lot of bad copywriting out there. And even people who will charge you for copywriting that really don’t know what they’re doing, and, and, and they will, can charge you a lot like and there’s a lot of people who will charge you a lot of money to build funnels and they really don’t know what they’re doing. So there, there’s a lot of, there’s a l a lot of potholes here on this journey, but like before all of that, I want you to aspire, or at least consider this to aspire for the rule of 10. The rule of 10 says that I am gonna provide to you 10 times the amount of value in advance of me charging you for something. Which means if I’m gonna sell you something that costs a hundred dollars, I’m going to try to provide a thousand dollars worth of value to you before I ask you for the a hundred dollars.
RV (06:01):
If I’m gonna try to charge you $10,000 for something, I am going to try to give you a hundred thousand dollars worth of value. And if I’m gonna charge you a hundred thousand dollars worth of value, or, or excuse me, if I’m gonna charge you a hundred thousand dollars price, right? If that’s the cost, then I’m going to aspire to make the value of what I’m providing to you worth $1 million. And I think too many people are in this space just trying to go, how much money can I get for the least amount of value? And, and you don’t have to do this. I’m not saying that doesn’t work in the short term like that. You can’t create money that way. I mean, you can, but it totally runs out, right? Like eventually, it, it’s not how you build your reputation. The way you build an incredible reputation is you charge for 10, but you deliver a hundred and, or you deliver a hundred before you even charge for 10, right?
RV (07:00):
Or you, you know, deliver 50 and then ask, and then, and then ask for 10 while you’re delivering another 50. But, but it’s the rule of 10 that people are always getting 10 times the value of what they’re paying for. And it’s just, it’s, I don’t know, it’s just a, it’s a philosophy that we have and, and it’s not the only way to make money. I know plenty of people who make lots of money from what I would consider taking advantage of people. I think it’s the opposite. They, they deliver to people a 10th of the value of what they charge for. They, they charge, they charge a hundred thousand dollars and they give them like a thousand dollars product. Like, or they charge $10,000 and they give somebody something that is like really worth a thousand dollars. I see that a lot. But that’s been our pH our philosophy is not that, our philosophy is the rule of 10 the other way.
RV (07:47):
And, you know, it’s worked out well for us. And that’s all I all I can share. And like, you know, that’s why we, we, we only teach what we do. We only teach what we actually practice. But I think part of the power of this, you know, honestly, there’s value to your consumer. There’s value to your, to your avatar, to your customer, to your prospect. And that’s a good reason to do it. But part you may not realize, which is equally as valuable, is it’s valuable to you. Because what I have found, if you’re a true mission-driven messenger, right? If you’ve found your way to this podcast, this episode, you’re still listening. You’re like following me and AJ and our team at Brand Builders Group and the stuff we do, and you’re, you’re starting to like be introduced to the philosophies that, that we have.
RV (08:29):
You’re probably a mission-driven messenger, which means there’s a part of you that goes, I do wanna make money, but I don’t wanna just make money. I’m not okay making money at the expense of somebody else. I’m not okay taking advantage of people. I’m not okay using tactics that are a win for me, but they’re a loss for someone else. If that’s you, you’re a mission-driven messenger. And here’s what we know about you, because this is us. We sometimes struggle to sell. We sometimes struggle to promote. We sometimes struggle to have the conviction to say, you should pull out your credit card and buy this because we’re so nervous about taking ad you know take not wanting to take advantage of people or overpromising and underdelivering or just, you know, not being vain. We don’t wanna be arrogant, we don’t wanna be conceited. And so, but what happens is you need to be an avid promoter in order to create revenue.
RV (09:21):
And so the way you do that is you create the rule of 10. And so you go, what gives you the confidence and the conviction to do it is because you know that it’s worth it, right? And you know, there are people who pay me a hundred thousand dollars for like a couple days of time. And I know for some of you that might be like insane cuz it is for me, honestly, right? Like growing up in a trailer park, to say that out loud is like a weird thing to go man from where I was to, to where where I I I am now or we are now is wild. But it’s because what they’re gonna learn and what we’re gonna build with them is not only worth a million dollars, but probably millions of dollars, right? Because we’re helping them construct a company or create strategy or develop a sales team or a sales plan, or launch a book or write a keynote or, or, or create a whole ecosystem for their, their their personal brand.
RV (10:18):
Those are worth millions of dollars. Millions of dollars, right? And I’m completely convicted in it. And so it’s important that you are convicted in, in what you’re selling. Now most of our clients at Bra Builder’s Group don’t pay anywhere near that amount of money to us. Like nowhere even near that. But we’re always priv providing the rule of 10. So people know that like, hey, our goal is to offer 10 times the value of what you’re paying for. And it gives you conviction to sell when you operate that way. It’s also really great for your customers, right? It’s great for your reputation, it’s great for altruism and service and impact, but it’s also great for your own conviction. And that’s part of the part of what I, I wanted the point I wanted to make. And it, it helps you increase your conversions because you have more confidence.
RV (11:03):
The second thing about funnels that I really wanted to, to share and underscore for you is have realistic expectations. Have realistic expectations. And I thought I really, you know, I I sort of threw this question at Lauren in the interview, which is a tough question to answer. You know, to put someone on the spot to go, Hey, hey, if I, you know, if I did hire you and you did all this, like, what’s the conversion here? And you know, the the, and the number I used, I said, if you have a 10,000 person email list, how many are gonna convert? And you know, I really appreciated the way she did it cuz I, I feel like she did a, a good job, like an honest, an an honest job. But you gotta like understand when, you know, there’s this like dream of like, oh, I’m gonna, I’m gonna sell thousands of courses, or I’m gonna, you know, have a membership with thousands of people.
RV (11:51):
Or, you know, I might have a mastermind with dozens of people painting these top dollars. Those are good dreams. They’re, they’re great business models. We do a lot of ’em, we’ve done a lot of ’em, our clients do ’em, we know them really well. They’re, they’re great things. But what you gotta really understand here is the minuscule total conversion percentage, right? If I have 10,000 people on an email list, if I send that email, first of all, only 20% of the people are gonna open it. So that’s 2000 people, right? If I’m lucky, I would get 5% of those people to click on the email. So that’s 2000. So 10% of 2000 would be 200 people. So, so if I got 5% of those people to click on it, that’s what, what did I say? 2000? Open it. So, so then 10% would be 200.
RV (12:43):
So a hundred people click on it, which means I got a hundred people coming to a registration. Page five. If I have a a 50% conversion on the registration page, that means I have 50 people who opted in for my training. If I have 50 people who opted in for my training, if 50% of them showed up, that’s 25 people who have showed up. And of the 25 people who have showed up, if I I, or shown up, I’m not sure what the proper English is there shown up if, if 25 people have shown up for that training, even if I convert 20% of that audience, so let’s call it 25 people. So 10% would be two and a half, so 20% would be five people. So even if I con convert, quote unquote 20% conversion of that audience, that means I sold five people, but I sold five people out of 10,000, 10,000.
RV (13:38):
Like, like, notice how 10,000 so quickly becomes five. So I just want you to understand like, the reason we’re so passionate about sales in addition to marketing is because we know that if you have conversations with people, you’re probably gonna close like 20 to 30% of people that you talk to when you talk to ’em one-on-one. And there’s like an infinite, you can sell a price point of anything. Like you could sell a hundred thousand dollars, 10,000, 5,000, you know, 2000, like whatever it is because you’re having a, a conversation. So we love to create real life human conversations to people because they accelerate trust. Well, so we’d love, we love digital marketing also, right? We love social media, we love podcasting. I mean, here I am, like pouring our, pouring our heart and soul and a bunch of money into creating all this free content for you, right?
RV (14:25):
So we believe in those things, but you just gotta realize the reality of the minuscule conversion percentage of how fast those audiences dwindle. And it can take a long time to build a 10,000 person email list. I mean, like a legitimate one if they’re real people. So there’s ways to increase that. We talk about, you know, a lot about that stuff, but the real way to increase it is with trust, with adding value, right? Trust must take place before the transaction and then have realistic expectations. And so don’t be hard on yourself. If you launched something right and you had one person buy, or two people buy, or five people like, you might be getting better conversion percentages than the, the biggest personal brands and the biggest online influencers and the biggest information marketers and digital marketers and social media marketers in the world, like percentage wise.
RV (15:14):
So it just, it takes a high volume to convert. And so that’s why so much of what we do is like use the tools to automate trust, right? That’s we, we have a, a, a course called revenue engine or a topic, right? Like in our, in our coaching curriculum that we walk people through, which is building your revenue engine. And the idea is to use these tools of the day to automate trust. And then typically if you’re a small business owner, we say, Hey, request a free call because on a free call, you can then sell ’em something that costs a lot more money and you’ll convert a lot more of those people. Now, long term, that’s not scalable either, because you can only do so many free calls, but you can hire more people and you can do more. So anyways, it’s just have realistic expectations.
RV (15:57):
Is is all I want you to understand, right? So like a lot of people feel like they’re failing and and they’re really not. And again, you know, we teach this stuff and I shared on the interview like some of our highest performing funnels, a five to 8% funnel conversion, meaning if a hundred people signed up for it, like, you know, got to the page and signed up. So that means like maybe 200 people got to the page, right? We would get like eight calls out of that, but then we would, we would probably, we would our team, you know, we typically sell like 30% and that’s because by the time someone’s on the phone with one of our strategists, they already trust us. We’ve already added the rule of 10. They already have so much value. So that’s what you want to create is reputation and trust and add value.
RV (16:40):
And, and by the way, I know that these funnels are a headache for you. And we’re, we’re building, we’re building templates. We’ve been working for years. I’m talking about like multiple years creating something that we’re about to launch that’s called Instant Automation Toolkit, where we’re just gonna give you our funnels and you can just buy ’em. And we, you can have hours, like you can buy them and make them yours. You can rent them for also like very, very cheap. And like you can start using them to build your entire business gi and we’ll give you our exact templates, not like what we do, but like the exact ones and then you just swap out and change ’em. So we’re working on that and that’s, that’s coming. And the last thing I wanna leave you with here on just understanding funnels and online marketing and digital marketing in general, and information marketing, all things we love, all things we do, all things we believe in.
RV (17:32):
But another philosophy we have that’s really important. And, and again, I just wanna encourage you to try this on and consider it for yourself, but this is what we try to aspire to is, and, and we encourage our, our members, our mission-driven messengers, our members inside of our brand builders group community is to realize, and that to realize that the sale isn’t finished when the cash is collected, the sale is finished. When you deliver the result, the sale isn’t finished. When the cash is collected, the sale is finished. When you deliver the result, when you, when you and your team or your product or your service help the customer get the transformation that they wanted originally, like the job isn’t done until then. And anything less than that is just a self-centered way of operating. And so service centeredness, which is what we believe in service centered selling, is about following it through to completion, being driven and focused and, and, and being committed to helping your prospects and your clients and your customers experience a final result.
RV (18:47):
And if you do that, if you have that philosophy, if you have that mindset, if you have that mentality, all I can say is that it works out. Like eventually you will get paid. Eventually your reputation, your reputation grows, eventually people buys. Maybe it’s not the fastest way to put in a dollar in your pocket, but I’m telling you, it’s the fastest way to get rich. It’s the fastest way to build a reputation. It’s the fastest way to get famous. It’s the fastest way to become influential. It’s the fastest way to build relationships with, with people who are doing big things in the world because people trust you and there’s just no dollar you can place on compromising trust, right? There’s just no dollar value you can place on compromising your reputation. So pursue the rule of 10. Remember that trust must take place before the transaction.
RV (19:36):
Be committed to over-delivering and, and remind yourself and build a culture and a community and a, and a team. Or just carry it as a personal philosophy that you’re, that the sale isn’t finished when the cash is collected, the sale is finished when you deliver the result. I hope you’re getting results from listening to this show. I would love it if you would share this episode with someone who you think needs to hear it. Keep coming back. We’re so glad to have you. And it’s our privilege and honor to, to, to be pour into you as much as we can and in hopes that one day you will trust us enough to invest your dollars with us and trust and believe in yourself enough to invest in your dream. And let us coach you up to the next level. But in the meantime, keep coming back, sharing this with your friends, your families, your colleagues, people are important to you. We love you. We’ll catch you next time on the Influential Personal Brand Podcast.

Ep 384: Using Funnels to Drive Revenue Growth with Lauren Cannon

RV (00:02):
So I had a very awesome opportunity for about a year in my career. So when we started Brand Builders Group, one of the clients that we had fairly early on was a gentleman named Glen Stanford. And Glenn, it was the billionaire founder and owner of exp Realty. Well, while we were working with Glen, he actually had opportunity to buy Success Magazine and he bought Success Magazine and asked me to come over and be the interim editor. A lot of people don’t know this, but I was the interim entrepreneurship editor of Success Magazine for like a year, and I really loved it. It was the first time I actually worked inside of like a traditional media company, like on the backend. I had written articles and stuff, but never like sort of seen the backend. So I was there at Success Magazine. While I was there, I got introduced to an amazing woman named Lauren Cannon, who you are about to meet.
RV (00:55):
Lauren has worked at Success Magazine. She worked for a while with Brendan Burchard. She now has her own mar. She, she now has her own marketing agency. And she does a lot in the world of marketing automation and funnels. And that’s what we’re gonna talk about today because I really like her and she like me, I think is a fellow nerd, but she doesn’t look like a nerd. She doesn’t act like a nerd, but she is so smart and so brilliant at what she does. I just felt like you needed to have a conversation or listen into a conversation with me and Lauren, her agency’s called Make it Pretty. And so anyways, Lauren, welcome to the show.
LC (01:36):
Hey, thank you so much for having me. I am so excited to be here.
RV (01:40):
So how did you get into the world of marketing automation? Mm-Hmm. , I mean, you’ve been doing this for a long time. I mean, it’s, it’s not that, you know, the industry’s not that old, but you’ve been, you’ve been in this space for a minute.
LC (01:52):
I have, yeah. Almost 10 years now. So I started with project management. I just, success had brought me over and we were launching new courses and we were doing events and they needed help organizing it. And at the time, I was the project manager of all things and process engineering. I love figuring out how things work and how to make them work better and more efficiently. And through the course of doing that, I just started learning every single skill there was in marketing everyone’s role to where I developed to be able to do it. And then I started to put myself further and further into marketing positions.
RV (02:33):
Mm-Hmm. . Yeah. Yeah. So, so you got introduced to the world of marketing automation and then I guess mm-hmm. . So, so can you just, like, for somebody listening who like, isn’t familiar with that term when they hear marketing automation, and let’s go ahead and talk about funnels at the same time mm-hmm. , because I, you know, some people are like, yeah, I’m, you know, I’m a funnel hacker and I know all about funnels, but I think there’s a lot of people who still kind of hear that term and go, you know, isn’t that what info marketers do? Or like, that’s only certain types of people. Can you just define marketing automation and funnels? Like how would you define those terms?
LC (03:10):
Yeah, I would, I would say, you know, specifically, especially with, with the world that, that we’re in, the industry we’re in as you say, the mission driven messengers, it’s a, it’s a vehicle for delivering that mission and that message in the most effective and efficient way. We wanna make sure that someone is spending more time and energy on developing that mission and developing that message and less time and energy on the delivery of it. Mm-Hmm. so funnels and marketing automations are gonna be how you can not only constantly serve people, but how you can constantly reach more people and it becomes this endless cycle of people coming into your world and into your mission.
RV (03:56):
Yeah. And I, that’s, I love that. And I, I feel like, you know, when I think about it, it’s, it’s going in a tactical sense. You’re driving people to your website or to a landing page, typically you’re offering them some type of value and now, you know, some type of a lead magnet, a free asset mm-hmm. , they’re downloading it or subscribing or, you know, tuning into a, a webinar or a challenge or something. And then they’re, and then they’re, and then they’re on your email list, but there’s a lot more between that and getting them to buy. And I think a funnels a sort of like covers the distance between, okay, I, you, I gave you my email address, but between getting their email address and making a purchase to me, like that’s where funnels live. Yes. And a lot of people don’t know, know that much about ’em cuz they’re invisible. Like you don’t, even, when you’re going through one as a prospect or a customer, you often don’t realize mm-hmm. , you’re inside of this ornately designed infrastructure and architecture. But would you, does that, would that sync up with how you think of it?
LC (05:00):
Yeah, absolutely. You know, there are so many people who, like you said, they can funnel hack, they’ll hack a funnel, you know a big launch that just happened in, in the space was Marie for Leo’s Copy Cure. She just opened that up so you can sign up for her lead magnet, get all the emails, see the sales page, and then, you know, ultimately buy or not. But essentially you have the whole email. So now you’ve hacked the funnel, let’s say. But there’s so much more that happens outside of that period of time that Marie has done to develop that sale. And so that’s what really a funnel is. It’s a whole launch system that is year round and your business delivering content in different ways and segmenting your audience in different ways so that you’re delivering value to what that specific person needs.
RV (05:53):
Mm-Hmm. mm-hmm. . So what, what do you think are some of the most like, practical examples of funnels either that you’ve seen or that you’ve worked on or that you build where you go, here’s how and where and when mm-hmm. you would use a funnel, and, and by the way, just for everyone, if you’re totally new to this term, I, I kind of think of as marketing automation as basically like the tools and the process and the science of building funnels, which are these mm-hmm. sort of automated nurture sequences to move someone from, okay, I’m on your email list to now I’m gonna buy, or I’m following you on social, but now I’m gonna ultimately become a customer. So what are the use cases, I guess, of these that you think are either the most common or you think everyone should have or just that you kind of work on a lot
LC (06:39):
Mm-Hmm. ? Yeah. We have we’ve worked on a lot with speakers who after they deliver a keynote speech, they want to leave the audience with something to continue connecting with them and build that, that relationship. And, you know, if you’re a speaker, that connection you make with the audience is one of the most valuable connections you can make. And you don’t wanna walk out the door without giving them the option to continue that relationship. So we’ll do a lot of lead generation from stage where if there’s a QR code and, and typically something that is related to your keynote but is truly of value to that audience member, something that’s gonna help them take whatever your presentation was and either apply it to their lives or accelerate their results into achieving the results you shared. So not necessarily the slides or something like that, but maybe it’s an ebook.
LC (07:43):
We’ve done quizzes and things like that. So getting these people into your email list is always number one. And then from there, it’s really inviting them into this conversation with you. So not necessarily selling right away, just say, you know, Hey, I’m so glad to connect. Here’s my best content and you wanna deliver, you know, three to five excellent pieces of value content and just get them to keep opening your emails. And you just build these nurture sequence along the way. And then as you have offers that are related to that segment, starting to build in the sales sequences,
RV (08:21):
Uhhuh . So that’s a great example. So you’re on stage, you’re doing a speech, speech comes to the end, you say, Hey, here’s a free tool I put together for you. I’d love to stay in touch, text this number or go to this url mm-hmm. or scan this QR code or whatever. And then it takes ’em to a page. It takes ’em to a page. Or it could be, if it’s a text optin, I guess they’re just like sending a message and now they’re on your email list mm-hmm. . And then like how many pieces of you, you said like three to five excellent pieces. Is there like a rule you follow of like the ratio of how much value you really should be given before you ask for a sale or when you ask for a sale? Or like at what are some of, like, philosophically speaking, what are some of those transition points in your mind where you go mm-hmm. , okay, we’re gonna shift the conversation to like, I’m building the relationship, I’m adding value. I’m, I’m basically giving you free instruction, advice, whatever encouragement to then shifting towards making a sale and asking mm-hmm. for like money from somebody.
LC (09:23):
Yeah. Typically the sequence I would I follow is they enter your email list, they saw you on stage, they enter your email list, the first email they get is a personalized, thank you, I’ve got you here. This is the tool, this is how you’re gonna make the most of this tool. And you know, I’ll be checking in with you tomorrow and see how things are going. And then that second email that is, you know, automatically kicks off in your sequence. It is gonna say, again, following up on the tool, saying, I really hope you’ve seen this and this, and the tool, here’s how, you know, I have this piece, this video that really shows how this tool can effectively make your life better. And then, you know, there might be a Ps I’ve got more coming soon, just kind of teasing that you are going to sell them, but you’re still delivering content.
LC (10:17):
And then that third email is gonna be another piece of value content that you’ve already got written if you’ve got blogs or videos. And it’s also gonna be a bigger teaser that’s like, Hey, you know, if you’re interested, I’ve got this program that I’m gonna tell you more about tomorrow. Stay tuned, keep your eyes on your inbox. And then as you get into email four and five, you can start to build that sale up. And it really depends on what your offer is. If your offer is something in the 20, you know, it’s a low ticket, 27 to 1 29 kind of offer, you can start to build that in around email three and four. If your ticket is something that’s really high in let’s say a thousand dollars to $5,000, you’re probably gonna be doing what we call lead stacking. So you’re gonna have almost another lead magnet that they’re gonna raise their hand for that’s gonna give them a little bit more of a sales sequence in it. So a webinar or something like that. And then you’re gonna put them into that sequence.
RV (11:26):
Got it. Uhhuh, . So you, you were, you were talking, one of the things you shared with me, which I, I thought was powerful, is this this relationship between the lead magnet and the offer. So talk, talk, talk us through why that, what that means and why that matters.
LC (11:44):
Yeah. It’s a lot of people, you’ll, you’ll throw together a lead magnet. You know, you need to build an email list and you know, you need a lead magnet to do that. You see opted pages and that is the best way to build your email list. But a lot of things that I see where we need to go and fix some funnels is they have the wrong lead magnet for what they offer. So you need to make sure that what lead magnet you’re showing people is going to align with your offer. Because if it doesn’t, it’s gonna create a lot of misaligned connection points in that you may not have a properly segmented audience. So y your lead magnet may attract an audience that can’t afford your offer. And then your lead magnet content has nothing to do with your offer. So some of the things, you know, I see lead magnets as a sliding scale in terms of their perceived value and how it connects to your offer. So if you have a high ticket offer, an ebook is not gonna be the best lead magnet. Cuz going from a free, let’s call it 20 page e-book into a $5,000 program, that’s a really big jump. So you wanna, the more interactive and hands-on you are in your lead magnet, the higher price your offer can be.
RV (13:06):
So what are some examples? So, so I love that. So, so basically the higher the price of the offer, the more valuable the lead magnet needs to be.
LC (13:19):
Yes.
RV (13:19):
Okay. And then when you mention, you say the lead magnets are like a sliding scale of perceived value. So if you have it, if so, if an e-book is on the low end mm-hmm. , what would be high-end lead magnets? Like, what would be, so let’s, let’s say you do have a, you know, a six month, one-on-one coaching program and it costs, you know, a thousand dollars a month, right? So you have a $6,000 offer some, something like that. What, how would you do the lead magnet differently?
LC (13:48):
I would do a live webinar, but for something like that I would do the lead magnet stacky method, where you may have someone, especially if you’re going with cold traffic, you have this six month coaching program and, and they haven’t heard of you yet. They bought into what you have to offer, what your mission is, and they, you need to build that trust and rapport still. So you may start with a quiz or an ebook, something that is on the lower end of the perceived value chain. And through that you’re gonna say, okay, I’ve given you value. I, I know this about you, and so I know that X is gonna help you even more, which would be your main lead magnet and a live webinar. The higher the ticket, I would do a live webinar. If you’re, if you’re looking at something that’s maybe 2,500, you could do an on-demand webinar, but something like 6,000, I would do a live webinar. Because what happens in those situations, one of the best ways to convert someone into something like that is a live transformation. So we have people that we see that go live on Instagram every single day and do free coaching, but what they’re doing is they’re building this, this audience that sees these live transformations happening and they can fill up their mastermind of it or something like that. So the more you can create that live experience, the more people will pay.
RV (15:25):
Interesting. So, and when you say on demand, when you say like, on demand webinar, just to be clear mm-hmm. , so you’re talking about like a pre-recorded automated, is that what you mean by an on-demand? Yes. Webinar, yes. Okay. And then, and you’re saying that you might be able to, so if you said, okay, I’m gonna give away a quiz or an ebook or maybe a quiz, then an e-book, then an invitation to a webinar, then they’re on a webinar, then at the end of the webinar, which, you know, you’re adding some value for an hour of the webinar or something mm-hmm. , then at the end of that, now you could make a two, a 1500, $2,000 offer, something like that. But if you’re, and you’re saying that could be a prerecorded webinar Yes. But if you’re gonna go north of that, then you would say you would basically invite people to like watch a live coaching and like a live coaching session of you with somebody?
LC (16:18):
Yes. Yes, I would. And I would spend that time, you know, you may say it’s a, an hour long, I would spend that time, the first, first bit of time teaching, have it, make sure it’s a, a masterclass on, you know, part of your framework. And then, then you wanna open it up to be able to interact with that audience and provide coaching transformations. And all along the way, once you get to that segment, you’re starting to infuse what you sell and say, you know, in my coaching program we go deeper into this and, and starting to, to build into that message
RV (16:59):
Uhhuh . So then that just to like talk about the funnel example. So it’s like mm-hmm. , maybe they saw you speak on stage, then you had an offer for a ebook, then you invite them to a webinar, and then at the end of the webinar you sell something or you invite them to, I guess you would invite them to a live webinar mm-hmm. . And then you, you still do, you still basically do a webinar, but you’re saying incorporating the element of like a live coaching session where they see someone go through the process would then be, is like a key thing for selling a high, high like north of a few thousand dollars?
LC (17:35):
Yes. Mm-hmm. .
RV (17:36):
Gotcha. Yeah. Gotcha. How do you use the funnels in the follow up sequence? So like you know, I mean, I guess I would just be curious, like let’s say you did that, let’s say you built all that out and you go, okay, I’m speaking and they’re getting this free thing, and then they’re showing up for a webinar, or they’re here live, they watch this live coaching experience. Like in your experience, do most of the people that are gonna buy buy right on that at that moment when you make the offer? Or is there a follow up that happens afterwards?
LC (18:10):
There’s a follow up that happens afterwards. And I would say from doing, we’ve built so many launches over the years, ed, there’s really this, this sweet spot when it comes to your launch. And even if you’re doing an evergreen, it follows the same type of sequence. It just turns on and off. And so you’re gonna get about 20% of your sales from that webinar. So 20% of the sales you do in your launch are gonna come from the webinar.

LC (00:04):
The rest of your sales are going to come in the last 24 to 48 hours of your launch. And that doesn’t mean that, uh, you can have a two day launch and the rest of your sales come in the next day. We actually have found the best launch timeline is 12 days. And so that creates this ability for you to share more stories and transformations as you lead into that final close down. Uh, and so in those last 48 hours, about 70% of your sales are gonna come in and you’re gonna send probably somewhere between five and six emails. A And so throughout that 12 day period, you’re sending most like an email every single day. But they’re very prescriptive. Uh, you want to tell them what they’re, you wanna focus on a feature that’s in your program, but highlighting it through the benefits language. And you also wanna have emails that act as your faq. But when you ask questions and your email marketing, you’re not answering questions like, how many video modules is this? It’s more of, this is what I have going on in my life. How is this program gonna fit in my schedule? And so you’re, you’re thinking of what are the sales objections someone’s gonna have? And you’re using those as the questions and doing FAQs through that. And then you’re sharing more case studies and stories of testimonials through that 12 day window.
RV (01:40):
Uhhuh . And did I catch that? Yeah. Did I, did you say that you think that roughly 70% of the sales will come in like the last 48 hours?
LC (01:49):
Yes.
RV (01:50):
Yes. And then, and you said you send something like six, six emails in the last 48 or out, so usually like two emails on the second to last day and then like four emails on the, on the LA on the last day, the day of,
LC (02:02):
Yes. Yep. Mm-hmm. . And it’s a lot, it’s a lot of emails and you know, if you’re out there funnel hacking, you’ll notice like there are some that send 10 emails on that last day. But, you know, part of what we talked about earlier with the funnels there, it, it’s a lot of what happens outside of that window. So they may, someone may be on your list and receiving all these emails and you’re gonna get a higher number of unsubscribes during that period. That’s naturally gonna happen. But what you do outside, once that’s finished, what you do outside that period is you’re building that list back up so that when you come back around to launch a significant high ticket, you have a new list of people. And then you also have this list of people that they really enjoyed the messages, they really enjoyed the emails with the stories that you shared, but they just weren’t ready to buy yet.
RV (02:58):
Ah-huh. . Yeah, I mean that’s, I mean, to me that’s really encouraging and such an important thing for people to know. Like, cuz you do this webinar, right? You like, put all this effort into it and then a couple people buy, you know, if you have mm-hmm. , you know, if it, you have a couple people buy and then you’re just like totally deflated and defeated. Like it doesn’t work like this whole thing and you have to have the follow up part of it to pull this all, to pull this all together. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. Um, and so, so in a 12, you, you know, using that like 12 day sequence, so basically is it basically like the first two or three days are getting people to show up for the webinar and then on like day four you run the webinar and then day five and six is like a replay of the webinar and then basically like five to seven days of like, here’s a case study, here’s a question, here’s a story, here’s an extra bonus. Um, if you sign up and then, and then it all ends with like, there’s a deadline. And on that, on this deadline, you know this, there’s four emails on that day. Is that kind of the rough Yes. Arc of it?
LC (04:10):
Yeah. Yeah.
RV (04:11):
How many
LC (04:12):
Yeah, exactly like that. H
RV (04:13):
How many, uh, I know this is a hard question to, to ask and to be pinned, to be pinned down on, but like if you go through this whole process, right? Because this is like, it’s a lot of work and it’s time and it’s money, um mm-hmm. , you build the funnel, you write the emails, you build the email list, you put together the webinar, you do the webinar, you have the live coaching, you have the follow ups, like you do all this stuff in your eyes, what do you see as a successful conversion percentage on of, of a funnel? Right? So let let, I mean mm-hmm. , let’s just say you start with a 10,000 person email list mm-hmm. and go, you know, if I have a 10,000 person email list, how does that whittle down to become how many customers? And like in your eyes where you go, gosh, this, this, you know, this would be awesome. This would be like pretty solid and then, you know, anything less would be like, yeah, it’s less, you know, it’s very much not what we would hope for. Um, yeah, like if, talk me through that.
LC (05:16):
Yeah. So I would say, and I’m not great at mental math, so you may have to help me here. Okay.
RV (05:21):
I can help you do,
LC (05:22):
I’ll do the percentages . Uh, but if you have like a 10,000 person email list and you send out, I’m doing this free master masterclass, it’s gonna be live, it’s your webinar, uh, and let’s say about of your 10,500 sign up for that webinar, you’re not gonna get a huge chunk of people. And then from that 500 about 70% would actually show up to the webinar. And that’s a really good show up rate. It may be more like 50%. Okay. And then from that, the people that stayed on and watched and are now in your s they would probably generate about 5% of sales would be good from that 500. But I would say, I would still say 5% of the 500, that’s what I would track as the math. However, you’re still gonna be emailing your list even if they didn’t show up. That’s where those fourth days are great. Where it’s saying, Hey, you missed it, here’s the replay. And they have a couple days to watch the replay. And even if they don’t ever watch, you’re still sending them through that sales cycle.
RV (06:40):
Yeah. So, so like 5% basically of, so we, we, we call that term funnel conversion percentage, which is the 500 mm-hmm. that opted in a good solid funnel would be like 5%. So 10% would be 50. So 25% would be 25 people. So if you had 500 people sign up for the webinar, a bunch wouldn’t show. You know, some, some would show, a bunch wouldn’t show, some would watch a replay, some wouldn’t. And then I always find it ironic cuz it’s like some of the people who actually buy didn’t do anything. They signed up for the first email. Oh yeah. Waited till the last minute, saw the bonuses and were like, yep, I’m in. And never like watched anything . Um
LC (07:21):
Yep. So we’re all natural born procrastinators, uhhuh, I mean, like you say, procrastinate on purpose. So that’s why that those last days, that’s why the, the timeline is the timeline cuz people are going to wait until that very last minute. And even then, and that’s what’s the hardest is co telling people do not stick to your word. Do not open that cart back up when you close the cart. Because I’ve done it myself where I’ve had FOMO on, on a course and I’m like, oh I know I saw the 27 email that I got from this and it was gonna end, but the next morning I was like, I’m ready to buy and it’s gone. You just, you have to stick to it because you’re gonna open it back up and, and that integrity you’re building with that person is going to convert them. Mm-hmm.
RV (08:08):
. But I think that again, just like it’s good to have you walk through that and I’m glad you said that cuz those, those numbers would match up, you know, I think reasonably with like what the mm-hmm. what we would hope for. I mean our, our best converting funnel that we have is a summit funnel and it’s me interviewing mm-hmm. a lot of our like pretty well known clients and we see about 8% of those people Yeah. Will request a call. So a conversion mm-hmm. for us is, that’s not even a credit card that’s like they request a call. Right. Um, and then mm-hmm. , most of our like, uh, outside of that we’ve got some evergreen webinar funnels that convert it like 5%, but most of them are closer to like two and a half to 4% mm-hmm. . And we’ve got some video funnels that convert at 1.3%. Um, so I think the, um, you know, but if you started with 10,000 people, you might go, oh man, I’m such a failure. I got 20 people to sign up. And it would be like, no, you’re, that’s like, that’s the, that’s how it works. . Yeah.
LC (09:10):
That’s how it works. And you’re doing good. And I mean, that’s a big part cuz it kinda like you said, you’re building a lead magna, you’re building pages, you’re putting people through a webinar, you’re doing, you’re doing so much and people burn out from it. And, and that’s be, you wanna maximize your work and not your effort. And so it’s like you, you have to create all these things, but once you’ve created it once, you can just recycle it. I mean, I can’t tell you with, there are certain funnels out there that they launched twice a year every single year. I’ve gotten the same exact emails in that sales sequence for three years in a row. Hmm. You know, and, and it took me two years before I ended up buying that program. And so it is that like you put in a lot of work and effort to build this funnel, but you can keep it on, tweak it as you go and, you know, everything should start with your program and what you provide, the value you provide and be extracted from that. So if you’ve got a coaching program, take one piece of the framework that you’ve already created and just tweak it a little bit here and there and turn that into your lead magnet. Yeah. Or turn that into your webinar script and then, you know, there’s just so much repurposing and reusing people start from scratch and you should never start from scratch.
RV (10:31):
Mm-hmm. , do you have any, um, tips for Evergreen or on-demand webinars,
LC (10:39):
Evergreen and on demand? I would keep the, I usually like to use those as like my mid ticket kind of funnel. Like if you’re gonna have, if you have multiple offers in your offer suite, I like to use those in my mid ticket price and low ticket. Um, evergreen is, I feel like it’s this unicorn people chase and they think that they’ll sustain an entire business on an evergreen model. Uh, but it, it, you, you need those launches infused there to get those like big pickups of revenue. Uh, and then forever Evergreen. I, we’ve, we’ve run them in the past where, uh, and we have one currently running where it’s to a book and then to a minicourse and to, you know, their entire offer sequence. And the, the secret to it is making sure you build and nurture sequences along the way. So when you do that, say you come off of a sale, you wanna make sure you have about four weeks of just value sequences and it’s not an email every day, but you’re, you’re providing value and then you’re leading into the next thing. And that’s how you can kind of turn that evergreen
RV (11:48):
Uhhuh . And you’re just saying basically like in a series of ascending offers from like mm-hmm. a book to a course to whatever, but you have, it’s like a bunch of mini funnels that you sort of string together with like a value funnel or a value chain in between there of just like, sort of cooling, cooling the jets for a minute and, and going back and adding value. Yes. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah. That’s really, really interesting. Well, y’all, so if you’re interested in more of this from Lauren and, um, you want to find out more, we set up a little link. If you go to brand builders group.com/lauren, this is our affiliate link. Um, as I said, she’s someone that I have loved working with. I trust her. I, you know, I enjoyed getting to know her. Every time we talk and hang out, I pick up like some really good stuff. And this has been awesome, Lauren. Like, uh, I think even, even as someone who spent a lot of time studying funnels myself, like I always pick up l you know, new things and, and, and tidbits from this. So, um, you know, last thing I would just ask you is, is if someone is considering their very first funnel right now, like what would you say to them mm-hmm. if they’ve never done this before, but they’re kind of like thinking about it, what do you think they should know?
LC (13:05):
I think one of the most important things to know if you’re thinking about this and you don’t know where to start, is focus on providing as much value as possible in the front end. Do not be afraid to tell people what you do and lift the curtains and, and they wanna buy the how. So people will hold back on how much value they share, but they wanna buy, they wanna buy the how. So always provide that value and then knowing that your product is not your offer. So really focus on how are you helping someone apply and accelerate their results. And that’s gonna be your offer. Once you have a solid offer, then you’re ready to launch.
RV (13:53):
Mm-hmm. , I love that. I love that about helping them apply and accelerate their offer. Like, and that’s what it’s really about, right? We’re really trying to mm-hmm. , we’re not just trying to make money from a stranger and be like, ha, we won, we got you. We convinced you to give us your money. Like, we’re trying to deliver a result for people, um exactly. In their lives. And I think that’s exactly, that’s the, that’s the part that is the difference between slime and service. And that’s the part that I think people can vet out and they can sense like, you’re just trying to sell me something versus you actually care about helping me achieve this transformation. So thanks for that, Lauren. Um, we really appreciate it and we wish you all the best my friend.
LC (14:39):
Awesome. Thank you Rory.

Ep 381: My 3 Favorite Email Marketing Tips | Nathan Barry Episode Recap

RV (00:08):
Let’s talk about Email Strategy. You know, it’s funny, after all of These Years, email is still kind of the king when it comes to monetizing an audience. And, and I actually Just got off a call With our internal marketing team talking about the irony of how our email list we’re. This is very rare. I Think this is incredibly rare. Our email list
RV (00:33):
Is about twice the size of Our social media following, Like Most people, like almost all of our clients, it’s the Opposite. Where They’re social media following is like, you know, much larger, and then there’s some fraction of those people on their email list. Ours is the opposite. Our email list is, Is Like pretty massive, definitely massive compared to the Size of Our social media following. Most people
RV (00:57):
That have the size of our email list Are probably the people Who would have millions of social media followers. And so
RV (01:03):
Part of why that is, is it’s just where you place your focus, right? It’s like, what do you focus
RV (01:08):
On? And so I’m excited to share With you Three of my favorite email marketing strategies Of just Kind of like how we think about email in terms of the Way that we use it. And these are like my, my three favorite email marketing tips,
RV (01:26):
My three Favorite email marketing strategies. Of course,
RV (01:28):
This was inspired a little bit by my recent interview with Nathan Berry on our, on our recent podcast Episode. And So I just wanted to kind of share with you some of my philosophies and our Philosophies at, At brand Builders group About how we approach this
RV (01:41):
Subject and treats this subject Because frankly, like we do this pretty Good. I mean, I, I didn’t really, I don’t really Think of us necessarily of like, oh, we’ve got the World’s biggest email list, But it, it Did hit me and go,
RV (01:56):
Wow, That’s amazing. Like so many people are focused on growing their social media following and then trying to like convert that to a, to an email list Where The email list is really where the money is, right? Like the, the, that, that’s where The real long-term relationship happens. And that’s where a lot of the Trust takes place is, Is, you know, somebody’s email. So Let’s Dive into my three favorite email marketing strategies.
RV (02:21):
So the first strategy Is actually understanding something that we call the Four Types of email marketing. And this is actually something that we teach formally inside of one of our lessons inside of one of our courses.
RV (02:34):
So Our building your revenue engine course, Which is where we Teach our entire content marketing machine and how we convert it and nurture leads and automate trust.
RV (02:45):
There’s A section, a very specific section on email, and this is one of the things that we talk about. So this is a little bit of a, a preview for you if you Haven’t ever been through that. If you’re not one of our customers, and if you are one of our members, it’s A good refresh for you. So
RV (02:58):
Four types of email. The first type of email is the one that we all think of. These are broadcast emails, okay? So what is a broadcast email? It’s where you take your entire list or something that we would not recommend doing. We would never say, send it to your whole list. Take a segment of your list, you’ll have much more success with that. And you send everybody in that group the same message at the same moment. So whether somebody signed up for your email list today or 10 years ago, they’re all getting the same message at the same moment. And we used, we used broadcast messages to speak about things that are either timely or they’re big announcements. Those are like the two biggest reasons we use those. So timely, meaning it’s something happening in the news cycle, or it is something happening in the like like a holiday or something, right?
RV (03:53):
And we go, Hey, we wanna just like send out love about this, or it’s, it’s a big announcement. So, you know, we’ve done this recently a couple times in recent years where I can remember we’ve sent out big announcements when our clients have had huge wins, right? So we’ve had 13 clients that have hit the New York Times with a Wall Street Journal bestseller list. So whenever that happens, we’ve sent out some pretty big announcements. We’ve had now five clients go viral with TED Talks. I, we, we, we have another one that’s coming up the ranks that also could be taken off. And, you know, we, we celebrate client wins a lot of times and say, you know, cheer on everyone, Hey, check this out. So that’s broadcast email. It’s also used in launches would be another time that you would use that where you’re specifically saying, Hey, everyone show up for this free training or this, you know, webinar, or, Hey, we have a new whatever, a new podcaster, something like that.
RV (04:48):
So you’re, you’re launching something. So that’s broadcast email. The second type of email is something that people often think of, which I’m gonna call it long-term nurture, long-term nurture sequences. So this one is, you know, if you ever heard the term drip marketing or drip emails or funnels or automated emails, that’s kind of like this is going, you’re pre-scheduling out a series of emails where if you sign up today, you’re not gonna see the same, you’re not gonna get the same email today as someone who signed up 10 years ago, but you’re gonna get the same email that that person got on their first day, like hypothetically. So you’re the, and the, the number one way we use this is for long-term nurture, and specifically we use it for, we call it Evergreen magazine or easing, right? That’s kind of where that term easing originated from is to go, we’re gonna take your best of content of like what’s been on your blog post or what, what you’ve posted on your blog, and we’re gonna convert that.
RV (05:58):
We’re gonna turn that in to a greatest hits series. And so, the way this happens, right? If you think about a blog, every time you post something on a blog, whether it’s a podcast feed that you’re posting, like on brand builders group.com is where we post all our podcast episodes, but on rory vaden blog.com is where we post all of my blogs that I do every week. And so both of those, in both of those cases, they both get pushed down. And so some of the best content is from a long time ago, especially if you’re following one of our B B G mantras, one of our BBB G mantras is save the best for first, save the best for first. Always put out your next best piece of content as free content. Because what you, you don’t need to be worried about people consuming everything you have and then not buying from you.
RV (06:43):
You have to be worried about your content not being good enough that no one ever comes back, no one ever shows up again. So you’re always pushing yourself to get better and better and better and push your best stuff forward. So some of our best posts, a great example of this for me is you know I built my keynote speaking career on this story called Be the Buffalo, and it’s about buffalo’s versus cows. And you know, I, I published this intake the stairs in 2012. A lot of people use this, you know, use this. But I’m the original author of this story, and I was, I was telling this 10 years before it even showed up in my book, which was now 10 years ago. And that’s like a very popular story. People love it. And you know, it’s, it’s, it’s like one of my most highly trafficked pages.
RV (07:29):
Well, if you sign up for my email list today, you’re not gonna see that blog post, that blog post was five years ago. So it’s pushed way down. But I know that’s gonna be one of, that’s something that everybody loves. So I’m gonna take it and I’m gonna force it to you, and I’m gonna save the best for first. So just like we save the best for first with our kind of like blog strategy or podcast strategy going, what’s the next best thing I can put out fresh today? We’re also going to convert that into an a long-term nurture sequence of a greatest, basically, it’s your greatest hits. And we’re going, okay, I’m gonna take my my best blog post ever and I’m gonna make sure that everyone signs up, whether they sign up today or that was, you know, they sign up in six months, or they sign up in two years from now, they’re all gonna see this piece of content that I know everybody loves.
RV (08:14):
It performs really well. And I go, great. I wanna push my best stuff forward even to people who are showing up brand new. And so that’s how we use the, the long-term easing strategy. And so a lot of times, or not a lot of times, this is what we do, is we push our greatest hits into this email nurture sequence so that if you sign up for our list today, like you are gonna see all of our best stuff in addition to seeing some of our fresh stuff, which I’ll talk about in a second. Every month you’re gonna get one email, which is the greatest hits, and that’s the frequency that we do that is once a month. The other part that this does is this, make sure I’m talking to my entire email list at least once a month. So, and, and every time they get something from me, it’s, it’s not new content that I’m sort of like testing out and I’m hoping it works and that everybody likes it.
RV (09:04):
It’s like it’s proven, it’s time tested, we know. And so that’s automating trust, which is what we’re trying to do with our email list. We’re trying to automate trust. We’re trying to add so much value that people trust us and they go, you know what? These guys aren’t just trying to make money off me. These guys aren’t just trying to pitch me their next thing. Like, they actually give a crap about helping me succeed and they actually know what they’re talking about and they can help me. And so as I make money, I’m going to invest with them and, and hopefully they’re helping me make money, and then I’m investing, and then they make, help me make more money and then I invest more with them, right? Like, that’s the relationship we want to have with people, is we’re giving them free content to help them make money.
RV (09:42):
Hopefully they’ll make some money, they’ll invest it with us, then we’ll help ’em make more money, they’ll invest it more with us, right? And we’re trying to like, grow, grow with people. So anyways, that, that means that we have an email going out on autopilot so I can sleep at night just knowing my entire email list is gonna get one awesome email from me every month without adding any additional time to my calendar. Zero. So that’s the second type of email. The third type of email is one that you don’t hear very often and people don’t think about. And this kind of boggles my mind, and this is RSS email rss. What the heck does that stand for? RSS is a technical term, it stands for a real simple syndication. What it means in common sense language is every time I post a new article to my blog, automatically send an email to my list.
RV (10:33):
And this is amazing. First of all, it’s automating something for you. So you go, if you’re we have a whole nother process we teach called the content diamond, which you can go, you can go [email protected], I did a whole free training on this, on the content diamond. Well, if you’re doing the hard work of creating a content diamond every single week, then you want to tell people it’s out there. So we create this RSS so that automatically emails you. And, and by the way, if you can sign up for ours, right? If you go to, you can sign up for my [email protected], and we give you other, we give you a free training as an incentive for you to sign up for it. And then you get, you get free training every week, right? So we’re sending you this free video for me once a week, every single week.
RV (11:20):
And they’re like these little five or seven minute videos that I do and their articles, we convert ’em into articles. And so now that’s on autopilot. We also do [email protected] slash podcast because Brand Builders Group doesn’t have a blog, but it has our podcast. And so we post all of our podcasts there every week so people automatically can sign up to be alerted. And so RSS is this technical, you know, piece of code that you put on your website behind this form that people can say, Hey, I wanna automatically get notified every time you post something new and boom. And so this is cool because it’s automated, but unlike the long-term nurture, which is your old stuff of your greatest hits, it’s all your newest stuff, your freshest stuff, your like most hyper-relevant thing that you’re talking about today, and they’re automatically getting that.
RV (12:10):
So that’s also how we sort of balance the, like staying relevant and super current with our email list along with making sure they’re seeing our greatest hits of all time. That’s like the timeless, you know, principles and stuff like that. So that’s the third type of of email and it’s easy, I mean, easy to set up. So we do that, that’s standard protocol in both internally and also what we teach in building your revenue engine, which is where we teach all of this in social media and getting on podcasts and speaking engagements, et cetera. So, and then the fourth type of email, the fourth type of email is short term nurture sequences. This one actually is more commonly associated with the term funnel. So short-term nurture sequences mean that only a targeted set of your email list is going to get a series of pre-written emails that are hyper-relevant to a behavior they’re engaging in now.
RV (13:05):
So again, out of revenue engine one of the lessons we talk about is building funnels and, and how do we, we actually dissect and show people behind the scenes of our actual funnels that we use to run our entire business. And we talk about the different one. You know, we’ve done summit funnels and we’ve got video funnels, and we’ve got webinar funnels, and we’ve got, you know, just a pdf like download free, free download and free call funnels. We have all these different funnels that we use and we show behind the scenes of each one and how we, how we, how we build them, right? So, but if you, if you, let’s say you sign up for one of our webinar funnels what would happen is you sign up for a free training and then it’s going to say, Hey, thanks for signing up.
RV (13:48):
Here’s a link to the free training you requested. And then what it’s gonna do is we use marketing automation to that can tell us, did you ever actually click the link in that email and watch that free training? If you didn’t, it’s gonna automatically send you another email, like 24 hours saying, Hey, by the way, little reminder, thanks for signing up for our free training. Don’t want you to miss out, you know, here it is as promised, you know, when you have a minute, check it out. Boom, right? And then we’ll send a couple reminders to, to watch the free training. Now, as soon as you click that link and you watch the first couple minutes of the training, again, we’re using Mark marketing automation here, which is what we, we teach people do, and we also actually build templates to help you that we actually can do this for you, right?
RV (14:32):
So we’re building all these templates right now to actually do the programming and coding for you. So what would happen is it’s then gonna shut down that, that we call that the the training sequence, or sorry, we call it the the watch sequence, which is, you know, emails that are designed to get you to watch, watch the free training that you signed up for. So let’s say that you watch five minutes of it. Well, as soon as you watch five minutes of it, we’re using marking automation to shut off that sequence that’s reminding you to watch it. Cuz now we know you already started watching it, but then it starts a new sequence, which would be invisible to the untrained eye that says, let’s say you watch seven minutes, but then you abandon the video, it’s gonna start a new sequence called the finish sequence and it’s gonna say, Hey, we noticed you started watching the video, cuz we can tell, but don’t forget to finish because here’s some of the great things that come at the end.
RV (15:24):
And so then we’ll send ’em a few reminders to try to get them to finish watching. And then if they finish watching, but then they don’t like take the action, whatever the action is, we’ll say, Hey, you know, here’s a couple reminders of like whatever the action was that we’re trying to get them to take. And so you’re using these short term you’re using these short term sequences to move them along, and that’s the fourth type of email. So everybody is, everybody in that group is seeing the same emails similar, it’s like, it’s like kind of a, it’s kind of like a cross of all of these because it is a nurture sequence, but you only get put into that nurture sequence in a very specific moment in your journey where you have clicked on a video or requested a free call, or you’ve watched something or downloaded something very, very specific.
RV (16:14):
And so, you know, like one of them again if you go to, if you go to rory vain.com, there’s a free training section and there’s a, you can download our trends and personal branding national research study. So if you download that, that’s a lead magnet. It’s a free lead magnet. It’s incredible. It’s like this 60 page study, this of all this data that we paid tens of thousands of dollars to get, we give it away for free and then it, it starts a nurture sequence. Right? So everybody who, the only people who ever see that are the people who downloaded that specific thing. So it’s amazing. So anyways, those are the four types of email. I know that’s a lot, but, and that’s, that’s, you know, advanced, but that’s the kind of stuff we’re teaching and that’s like super, it’s advanced, but it’s simple, right?
RV (16:57):
But you go, you gotta build out all these different types. So it’s not just, you can’t just think of, oh, I send emails and that, or I send an email once a week. It’s all of these, it’s at least four major types of email that make up your overall email strategy. So you gotta like understand what’s the mix of these, and also the technology and also the timing of how they intersect, right? So that’s one of the templates that we provide to people is the actual marketing automation campaign that goes, Hey, make sure you’re not emailing people too much. And, you know, give them a chance to opt in and outta stuff and, and, you know, make sure they’re not getting, you know, a bunch of emails all at the same time. Which leads to number two, okay? So this is the number two thing that I wanted to talk to you about.
RV (17:40):
So my second favorite email strategy, which is really important is control the email opt-outs yourself, not the platform. So what do I mean by this? It means that every email marketing tool doesn’t matter which one you use, right? And, and we use all of ’em with clients and we like all of ’em, like we’re kind of like, you know, there’s certain ones we like more than others and whatever, but, but to us, the strategy is what matters more than the technology. The strategy matters more than the technology. And for example, all of the email marketing tools have an opt-out function. They have to, by law, this, this law is called gdpr, right? GDPR compliant. There’s, there’s all of this, this compliance now with how emails needs to be sent and permission-based marketing and all this sort of stuff. So they have to, when an email goes out, there has to be an option to unsubscribe.
RV (18:32):
Well, if you send an email to your list, let’s say you send a broadcast email, and let’s say you send it to 10,000 people on your list every time you send a broadcast email, by the way, people unsubscribe every single time. They always do. So don’t be offended or upset by that. And that’s not a bad thing, it’s not a bad thing when people unsubscribe, it’s a good thing. You only wanna be emailing people who wanna hear from you. But if people just hit that unsubscribe button, it starts to affect sort of like your ranking with the email service providers. And so what we like to do is, is we like to just, we give an opt-out function. But what the, the, the, the, we make a, we actually make a more noticeable link for people to opt out somewhere above the default one that is built in and tied into the tool where we say, if you don’t wanna hear from us anymore, click here.
RV (19:24):
But we also con control the languaging, which a lot of times you can’t with the default setting or not as much. And we’ll, so we’ll say something like this, if you say, Hey, if you want to hear from us less often or more often, click here to control your preferences or unsubscribe altogether, something like that. And then they click on it and then it takes them to a, a form where they can now manage. And we usually give them like four options in our standard suite it. And, and option number one says, you know, I’m a super fan, email me every time you have something new for me. And when they select that, it’s gonna apply all the appropriate, appropriate tags for them to get the broadcast emails, which we send once in a while, the evergreen monthly easing, which is on autopilot once a month, and the r s s feed.
RV (20:10):
So that means they’re gonna get at least one r s s feed every week and one email once a month. So that’s five. And then broadcast emails whenever we send them, which might be once every other month or something like that. So they could get maybe six emails in a month plus any other short-term nurture sequences that they are in. If they get into one of our, you know, free trainings or something like that, then the, the next button down would say something like this. They would say it would say something like I only wanna hear from you once a week. So we go, okay, no problem. We’re going to remove them out of our Evergreen magazine and we’re just gonna add them to the rss. So they’re just gonna get the most recent stuff once a week. And it’s like, download our most recent podcast, watch our most recent video or, or read our most recent blog posts, which are all kind of the same thing.
RV (20:58):
If you’re running the content diamond in and it’s just gonna push ’em to our blog feed and you go, great, once a week, the next person says, ah, I really only want to hear from you once a month. Okay? So that’s option number three, just once a month. So now they’re going to only get our oh, and by, and by the way, on that second one I wanna hear from you once a week we would say RSS plus broadcast, which we send once in a while. And if they say, oh, I really wanna hear from you once a month, we go, okay, great, once a month, let’s unsubscribe you from our RSS feed so you’re not hearing from us every week, that’s too much for you. And we go, but you do wanna hear from us? So we go, great, let’s, let’s put you on the evergreen nurture.
RV (21:33):
Now you’re hearing from us once a month but we are, we’re also gonna keep you on our broadcast e e email, not not, yeah. So our long-term nurture, which is our, our monthly easing and the broadcast e email, which sends, you know, sporadically once in a while. So those are the top three. And then the fourth one will say, ah, you know, it’ll say something like this I only wanna hear from you once in a while, you know, once in a great while or whenever you have something big to share. And so we go, great, unsubscribe ’em from rss, unsubscribe them from long-term nurture, easing, unsubscribe them from oh, but keep them subscribe to the broadcast tool, right? So we’ll keep them on the, the broadcast tag. And then the last one would say, I never wanna hear from you ever again.
RV (22:18):
Please stop emailing. So I guess there would be five options counting that, right? So boom, boom, boom, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. So now what’s happening is, first of all, we’re controlling their preference because a lot of times people don’t wanna unsubscribe completely. It just might be like, they’re like, bro, you’re overwhelming me, ro like, it’d be like, Rory, I love you, but dude, I don’t wanna hear from you twice a week. Like, that’s too much Rory in my life, which I can, I can appreciate. Well, I’m not offended by that, right? Some people are like, gimme all the Rory, you can give me like I need, I need, I want motivation, I need inspiration as much as I can get it every day I am like, yeah, you know, great my people, but it’s whatever your threshold is, right? And you have some people like to hear from you for different things or it’s just, what do they have going on in their life?
RV (23:02):
What do they have capacity for? They re they might be in a season of like, man, I’m not trying to gum up my whole inbox. And you know, you just, a lot of it doesn’t have to do with you, it has to do with them. And they’re just going, I wanna be able to read what you send me and maybe I don’t have the time, or your topic isn’t so hyper relevant at this moment that I’m gonna make time to read everything you’re sending me and now you’re annoying me and so I’m just gonna unsubscribe, right? So you’re, you’re wanting to give them a chance to sort of choose their own adventure here. And that’s what we’re, and that’s what we’re doing. So control the opt outs yourself, l and and then the other thing is if they hit never talk to me ever again, we add an unsubscribed tag that anytime we send an email to, we filter against that tag.
RV (23:42):
So we literally opt them out and we will never, we will never send to them again. But it’s not hurting our rankings with our email service provider. And so that’s part of why we do that. And you know, anyways, so that’s that. And then the, my third favorite email tip is super short. It’s super clean, it’s simple, but if you’re not doing this, make sure you’re doing this every single time you send a broadcast email, which is send to the unopens, send to the un unopens. So what does that mean? Well, okay, we’re talking about broadcast email, remember, with four types of email broadcast, long-term nurture, RSS and short-term. So we’re talking about the first type here, which is broadcast email. By the way, I hope you’re not listening to this on two x speed, cuz if you are, this is going really, really fast, .
RV (24:25):
So anyways, when you send a broadcast email, which is to a wide swath of your list all at the same time, boom, everyone gets a launch email or a a, a timely email or something like that. One of the ways to like literally double your opens is you send it to all these people, however many it is, a whole bunch of the people aren’t gonna open like some, usually something like 80%. So if you send an email to 10,000 people, okay, typically like 20% are gonna open and 3% are gonna click through roughly, right? Something like that. So that means if I send it to 10,000 people, 8,000 of ’em aren’t even opening the email, right? So 20% are opening the email and then 17% are opening it, but not clicking Well for that 20%, you know, they saw your email. So we go, let’s not annoy them, right?
RV (25:19):
They, they, they already have it. We know they’ve seen it, but most of the good email service providers will tell you this, 80% or these 8,000 people never even opened your me email. So what does that mean? That means it’s like they never got the email, they never even saw it. So you’re not ano you’re not annoying anybody to send an email to people who never opened it the first time because for them it doesn’t e it’s, it’s not like, Hey, you’re bugging me, you keep sending me the same email. They’re going, no, they, they never saw it, right? Like, you sent the email, they never saw it, they never opened it, they don’t even know that you sent an email. So you send just to the unopened. So you would just send to that segmented list, you could send the exact same message. We, we do, we we literally go send, send a broadcast three days later, take everyone who has not opened the email and send it again.
RV (26:11):
Because if they haven’t opened it within the first three days, they probably not gonna open it, right? So we send it to 8,000 people, the exact same email, and guess what the number of opens in total, it’s gonna be like 20% of 8,000. And, and sometimes it’s higher, sometimes you get a higher percentage on, you often get a higher open rate percentage on a smaller list. That’s almost always true. So you might get another 2000 opens off of your send to 8,000. Well, the net effect there is instead of 2000 opens from your email of 10,000, you got those 2000 plus you got another 2000 from your email to 8,000. And you could actually keep doing this saying, okay, well now there’s, you know, roughly 6,000 people who didn’t open that email I could send to them. So you could keep doing it. We usually just do it twice.
RV (26:57):
Sometimes we’ll do it three times, but if they’ve never opened the email, they, they never saw it. Like, you’re not annoying anybody. So at least do it once. Always, always with broadcast emails and it’s so simple, right? Then these are things where you just go, man, of course like that makes so much sense, but you don’t know until you know, right? And you know, if you don’t have a strategist like us, you know, our team walking you through it, you just literally leaving money on the table, that one thing could literally double the income of your entire next launch or promotion or thing by such a simple tactic, right? Imagine adding up all of those tactics over and over and over again and y’all, this is, this is what we do. So at any point if you want to talk to our team, I would encourage you to do it like we have so much to share and teach you.
RV (27:46):
And so you just go to free brand call.com/podcast to request that call. If you’re not ready to do that yet, I would encourage you, as I said, go to brand builders group.com/podcast and subscribe there and or go to rory vaden blog.com and you could subscribe there and we’ll send you lots of free stuff so that you can be growing your business and building your income and, and increasing your mindset and your motivation and your productivity and all the things that we teach and talk about to help you make more impact in the world. And then hopefully you start making some money from that and you go, all right, I’m ready to level up. So when you’re ready to level up, request a free call free brand call.com/podcast. In the meantime, share this episode with someone who you think would l benefit from it and listening to it. And just thanks for being here, right? We’re, we’re, we’re trying to add more and more value to your life constantly, whether you’re paying us or you’re not, our whole goal is to just add value to everybody as much as we can. And the fact that you’re listening gives us the opportunity to do that. So we appreciate you being here. We’ll catch you next time on the Influential Personal Brand podcast.