Category: BUSINESS

Ep 203: How to Hire Great Contractors with Hanson Cheng | Recap Episode

Listen to the episode below In today’s episode, we revisit our conversation with Hanson Cheng, a rapid skill acquisition expert, speaker, and multi-million dollar earner who helps CEOs optimize their time to ensure more freedom and flexibility. Tuning in you’ll hear Rory and AJ discuss their top three takeaways from Rory’s interview with Hanson, from […]

Ep 202: How to Hire Great Contractors with Hanson Cheng

RV (00:07):
Hey brand builder Vaden here. Thank you so much for taking the time to check out this interview as always, it’s our honor to provide it to you for free and wanted to let you know there’s no big sales pitch or anything coming at the end. However, if you are someone who is looking to build and monetize your personal brand, we would love to talk to you and get to know you a little bit and hear about some of your dreams and visions and share with you a little bit about what we’re up to see if we might be a fit. So if you’re interested in a free strategy call with someone from our team, we would love to hear from you. You can do that at brand builders, group.com/pod call brand builders, group.com/podcast. We hope to talk to you soon.
RV (00:54):
Biggest business blunder ever have I made the interview you are about to hear is not the real interview Hanson. And I have been working on our schedules for like three months to do this interview. We did the entire interview two days ago, and at the end of the interview, I got to the end and I was like, where’s the stop button where wait a minute. Where’s the stop button, no stop button. Because some bone head moved named Rory Vaden forgot to hit the start button. So we didn’t record the entire thing. And Hanson’s been, so you’ve been so gracious man to come back. Thank you for that. I feel like a total bonehead. I mean, nothing frustrates me more than losing time. And so to do it to somebody else is just like sucky. But no, oh
HC (01:47):
Man. Things happen, right? We’re entrepreneurs things, always seeing the not happen the way we planned, but you know, I’m glad we could get it done and do it again. Well,
RV (01:56):
Yeah, so here’s the good news for y’all is Hanson is going to save you some time. We had an epic interview and we just, him and I are newer friends, but we met on a project that he was working with. We have a mutual friend, Celinna De Costa, who is a writer and you know, they’re friends and we met for a thing. They were, they had going on for Forbes, but Hanson is really smart. And as soon as I met him, I was like, gosh, I really liked this guy. I like his brain. You know, he is a speaker, he’s a multi, multi seven figure earner. And he helps CEOs basically figure out how to remove themselves from their company. Either with people or processes. We’ll talk a little bit about both of those. Just so they have more freedom and flexibility and make more money and, and, you know, just more profit and, and be able to have more time on their vision. So he’s really good at streamlining things, automation he has worked around the globe and he, he lives Bali and right now I happened to catch him in DC. So he just, all things, entrepreneur and systems and, and man, the interview we did was awesome. So I couldn’t let him get away without getting it actually recorded, man. So anyways, welcome back officially.
HC (03:14):
Thanks for having me back.
RV (03:16):
So so freedom to ascend dot com is your website. And you’ve worked on a lot of different things, but I think that our conversation, you know, that we had a couple of days ago, what stuck out to me was I was going okay, how do you help entrepreneurs? Who is get their time back? And basically the way I thought of it was, you said, okay, we’re going to either put in awesome people and, or awesome processes. I mean, is that, I mean at a high level, is that kinda, what is that kind of how you think about it?
HC (03:59):
Yeah. I mean, every, every business is different, but we can use the same principles and analyzing how to best leverage the owner’s time. What we do is we just, you know just take an inventory of where they spend all their time, what is moving the needle most and how can you automate that exactly with systems current software. So keeping up with technology out there to replace or reduce the amount of people or time needed and adding people in to either do those tasks or to maintain those, those, the software.
RV (04:32):
Yeah. So the I’m a big nerd, like autumn marketing, automation, nerd, and, and, and stuff like that. And I like a lot of the systems, but I want to talk about the people part here first. And I think the thing that’s so frustrating for so many entrepreneurs, whether they’re trying to hire a VA or a full-time employee, or just a contractor who can get something done, like, you know, like I need a guy, like I need a guy who can edit a video. I need a, I need a gal who can like write some copy. I need a, I need someone who can like build a website or do design me a flyer. And it is so freaking hard to find good people to just like, knock out a job. And you’ve got two tips on this that I’m going to make you reshare, because these were two things I had never heard. But you know, you don’t, you don’t have to dive into those exactly. If you don’t want to, I do want to, I do want to cover them, but like, how do you find the people? Like, what’s the mindset here? And then, you know, like what, what give us like a couple techniques or strategies on this.
HC (05:44):
Yeah, sure. I think what most people default to is searching for job listing boards, like Upwork or Fiverr you know, or Craigslist or whatever it is to find these people and problem with that is we run into a lot of stuff we need to sift through. Right? You definitely can find quality in there, but I mean, it’s, it’s a lot of stuff to sift sifter. And a lot of times as business owners, we just want to get that task done in a, in a, in a hash process. So what I’ve done is like, okay, how can I basically make this process, the system more efficient and what I, so I found this hack. I’ve never heard of anyone doing it before. But what I do is I use this for my actual website was I was like, okay, where do I want my business to be?
HC (06:28):
If I were to five or 10 X or 15 exit, and who are the people in the market right now that are leaders in the what in my market who are 10 times ahead of me, I would go to their LinkedIn profile. And I will look at the recommendations they did. Not that they received, that they actually give, because what that will do it will show me who along the way, in the last three, four or five years have they worked with who experienced that growth or help and skill that growth that I can now talk to bring in as a consultant or ideally how I hired them as part of my team to then they have the blueprint they’d experienced the blueprint, they know where I am, and they knew they know what they did to get to where the person I’m looking at. Gotcha. And so I can just hire them, bring them on. And automatically I absorbed, it’s like a matrix. I can absorb their knowledge, right. Just by hiring them. So this is one way I like to acquire new skills or knowledge is just by hiring people. Who’ve already done it. And the fastest way to find those people is to hire the ones who have been recommended by the people who are invested in your industry.
RV (07:34):
Dude, that is such a practical tip that is, is free. And it makes so much sense. And we have, we have learned and studied so much about recruiting and hiring and we’ve hired so many people, employees. I mean, we’ve hired hundreds of people at this appoint, like between our various businesses. We’ve helped our clients hire hundreds of people. I have never heard anybody share that. And it’s such a simple tip. And you know, when you think about LinkedIn, of course, LinkedIn has its own job board, which we’ve used a ton and, you know, costs, I don’t know, maybe 500 bucks or something. We’ve used Upwork, we’ve used Fiverr, you know, whatever Craig’s list marketplace. Like we do all, all the things. But we have always found that like our best hires come from referrals either from like friends and family or clients, or from people who work here, but on your LinkedIn network, like those are referrals.
RV (08:39):
It’s, it’s like you don’t, and you don’t even have to ask for them, you’re going, who is out there, that’s the best in my space, or that does the best in this, this thing. And then like, we all think about recommendations in terms of who’s given us recommendations. How do I get recommendations, but never have I even thought to go, oh, and there’s an, you know, anyways, so we, you and I recorded this interview. It, two days ago this morning, I went on LinkedIn. I started doing this and I was like, whoa. And I, I found a VA case. I found one person that was like a VA. I found one person who was a social media marketing manager for somebody. And this is like top people. And this is like, the recommendation they wrote was like six years ago for like five years ago before they even became who they are now going, oh man, like they’re right there. And it was really amazing. And I saw a bunch of others, like web developers. I saw membership some, someone who had built memberships for one of these people. And I just, I don’t know. I dunno, Hansen. It was just so simple. And I just can’t believe I’ve never heard of that before, so that, and you’ve done this for yourself, but then also like you can help. You’ll help, you know, what clients you work with. You’ll go do this for them and figure out who they’re hiring.
HC (09:59):
Yeah. It’s very, very easy. Once, you know the process now I don’t even have to do it myself. Right. I can train a very like one of my team members to do this or a VA just say, Hey here are the competitors. Here’s a list of the people that are in my market, who are the best. And I don’t care. Like I want to know everyone they’ve ever given a recommendation and recommendation to, because I may be looking for a social media manager, but they might have recommended someone completely. I’ve never even thought about hiring. And then now that gets my brain to start thinking, like, why did they hire that person? Let me talk to him, shoot him a message on LinkedIn. Hey, I saw that you worked with this person, what did you do there? What were your results? And everyone’s super, super, because it’s just like a referral. Like you said, you, you refer them to who gave the recommendation and you’re like, I’d love to learn more about you and add, I’ve never had anyone not respond in a, in a, in a good way.
RV (10:50):
So do you just send them a yeah, I mean, that’s just so, so cool. And, and it is true. There’s something about LinkedIn recommendations. Like I even find that people will kind of write an Amazon review and there, you know, a lot of times they’re like very forthcoming, but there’s something about a LinkedIn recommendation that feels very like vulnerable and honest and real. It’s like, I won’t write a LinkedIn recommendation for just anyone who asks for one. No. Oh
HC (11:18):
No. It takes some time. It’s not easy. You got log in. You’ve got to go to recommendations. You need to set it up, you know, rent it out. Yeah.
RV (11:23):
Yeah. So, well, that’s awesome. That is such a great tip, you know, and, and, and on the LinkedIn recommendations, I mean, this is not really what we talked about it and not really the topic of this conversation, but the other Jim of how to use recommendations is like you know, like for keynote speaking, we, we have done, this is you go look at other speakers. We don’t really consider other speakers as competitors because they hire different speaker every year. Right. But you go look at who is a top speaker and write on their profile will be recommendations from all their past clients. And if you’re, and you go, like, these are the peop, like, these are literally the decision-makers who hired this person to come speak. And you just never think about using the tool like that. Like, it’s, it’s the, it’s not even just like the cold search power of it. And the social engine it’s like working through real human relationships and they’re all visible missing as an incredible so okay. So then the other thing I wanted to ask you about was you live in Bali, you grew up in DC, right?
HC (12:37):
I grew up in DC. Yeah. How long do you live in Bali?
RV (12:42):
I would say about four years. Okay. So the international hiring place, right. And you always hear of these, like hire someone in the Philippines for two bucks an hour to just like do this. And we’ve had certain things that has, that has actually been, it has actually worked, but in most cases it’s like, it takes more time than it is worth. And you shared with me that there is another kind of secret little thing that you have figured out about hiring, about hiring great people. Can you share, share it with us? Yeah.
HC (13:22):
Yeah. This is, this is a superpower of mine because when I discovered this man, it made, it made hiring so much easier for, for teens of people who have been working here. So I’ll, I’ll just get right to it. So I do have a competitive advantage, so I’m gonna let you know upfront. My, my fiance is Russian and my, my hack is to find groups of people, teams of people in Russia to hire who have been working with each other for specific pieces of, of, of labor in my businesses. And the reason I do that is because like you said, when you hired from the Philippines or India, and you’re looking for the low-cost salary for unfortunately their level of education and, and just their mindset on, on problem solving is a lot different from Western countries. Okay. I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but if they find an, a problem they have trouble finding a solution to a problem.
HC (14:21):
They’ll come back to you and you have to basically use your mental bandwidth to figure it out for them. Now, Russians, on the other hand do not, they are very, very competitive. Technology wise, they, they consume so much education Americans, Canadians, like they, cause they want to grow their skills so they can get out of Russia or at least perform on a competitive basis across the entire world. So what I’ve found working with Russians is that they’re, they’re sharp as, or maybe even a little bit sharp enough because they have the work ethic and they have the education and the mentality of like, okay, like what are all the different options we can do in chess? And what I’ll end up in there? Their cost of living is so dramatically lower than ours, that you can get a very, very one of, some of the best teams in Russia. And I’ll give an example. I have a social media team, well, more of a marketing team about four or maybe five people on the team and I’m paying less than 2000 a month. Or, and these are these, these, this agency works with grants like Coca-Cola pioneer, large, massive brands. So I have a lot of experience with the most up-to-date marketing strategies.
RV (15:36):
Huh. So, yeah. So like, what I hear you saying is, you know, each, each culture, like when it comes to hiring internationally, you have to like pay attention to the kind of cultural norms and the like course you do. Right. And it go, yeah, it’s, it’s different. Hiring someone in India is different than hiring someone in the Philippines is different than hiring somebody in Argentina is definitely the higher. And you know, I, I had to think back over the years, I’m like, I don’t think I’ve ever worked with a contractor from Russia. And what I hear you saying is going, Hey, there are certain countries that have an education level. That’s very comparable to what you might see in wherever the U S or Canada, or, you know, w England or whatever name, your pick and the work ethic is similar or better. And the problem-solving skills are similar or better, but the cost of living is still much lower. And and Russia’s one of those places. Are there, are there others, or as right now, is Russia like, well, Russia is also massive, so yeah, yeah, yeah.
HC (16:42):
Yeah. I mean a lot of the Eastern European countries. So my main sources are Ukraine and Russia. Okay. And this is what I call it’s like labor arbitrage. Right. you’re getting a very, very, very high level of skill for Le much, much lower price. Now the trade-off however is English is not a first language. Okay. So and I’m going to introduce you to a soccer. We did not discuss about this up the last conversation. This is another tidbit that I I’d like to add in here. I found, I found a software that uses AI to now repurpose, so I can have a Russian write anything. And they, they use the same structure, but it’s in Russian. I usually translate it. It’s not proper English. And this is where I was struck that man, I still got to hire an English copier.
HC (17:31):
Now I found a software just recently, just a few months ago, and I’ve been playing with it. It works tremendously. So I’ll have a Russian copywriter write email sequence or redo a website. And I will take that, dump it into the stock where that’s AI and it will repurpose it in perfect English. Really perfect. Yep. And now I’m even exploring might maybe even replacing my copywriters because I can take a copywriting. They’d let you funnel, hack your competitors. You see what kind of, what, how they’re speaking to their audience and their what’s on their website, their emails. You can just take that, dump it into this AI software. It will rewrite it. 99% plagiarism free. You can repurpose email copy. You can repurpose website. You can repurpose blog posts is incredible. The software I’m using is called conversion.ai.
RV (18:23):
I thought that’s what you might say. I thought you that’s what you might, you might say. Yeah. I’ve heard about this. Yeah.
HC (18:29):
Yep. And yeah. So this one, this one has closed the loop that had been like, okay, the trade-off is there. They don’t have the, the first or English as a first language. Now that’s not an issue for me. However, I’m still paying the same rates.
RV (18:43):
So that’s amazing. Does it go the other way too? Can you take your English and run it through conversion.ai and move it to like Spanish?
HC (18:56):
I have not tried. I haven’t tried to that. Yeah. I’m not sure I have that, but that would be a really good case study or case use.
RV (19:05):
Huh. Yeah, so this, I think I heard this tool in regards to in, in regards to like headlines and stuff like that. Yeah. Is, is I heard it as like basically like you’ll, you’ll plug in some copy and it’ll kind of like spit back some stuff. So I have not heard about this feature. So actually AIJ is the one. So our CEO, my wife, she’s the one that’s been telling me, Hey, you gotta look at this, you gotta look at this. You gotta look this, I haven’t actually gotten to look at it. But now that don’t tell her crap, she’s gonna listen. She’s gonna listen to this. There’s nothing more annoying than when your spouse tells you something like a thousand times that you don’t do it. And then like some random person says it and you’re like, oh, Hey, let me tell you
Speaker 4 (19:53):
About this awesome tool conversion. He’s like what? I’ve been telling
RV (19:58):
You this for years. But so you’re saying you’re getting a copywriter at a much more affordable price who kind of like understands persuasive marketing, et cetera, et cetera, writes it in their native tongue. You run it through this tool and bam, it spits it out in English for you.
HC (20:17):
Well, they write it in English, but the English is not, you know, it does. It’s just, you can tell it’s not written by speaking person. And then I read the word it. So they do have caught like they work with international brands. So they’re starting to try to find copy, but that’s their struggle in Russia. It’s really hard to find English speaking, Russians who sound like, you know, you can just tell it’s not written by a native English speaker. And so they can get 78. They, you get the idea, but just didn’t sound right. You plug it in here and now it sounds great.
RV (20:53):
Okay. So they are writing it in English, but it’s a little bit of broken, broken English, and then you, and then this cleans it up, basically
HC (21:01):
It’s better than Google translate. Not as good as you or I, right.
RV (21:05):
Huh. Got it. Okay.
HC (21:08):
For the Russians and then a conversion AI polishes it up to where you and I, even better than you arrived. I write it because they did different variations. So you can plug in, like they can write one thing and you can just sit you compose or generate generate journey. So they would come up with unlimited variations of that. So then you can AB test each one and be like, okay, I, they wrote one great headline. I’m going to create this one headline and put it into 20 and then I can give it to my person and they can run tests on all day.
RV (21:37):
Huh. And then see basically split test different headlines and see how they perform. Yeah. That’s how, that’s how ADA described it. To me was almost like a headline generator tool and kind of go in like, Hey, you know, different. Like we could even take our email sequence, put it in there and then it can give us like another rendition to kind of test. So
HC (21:56):
W w I want to real quickly, so re talked about basically SEO and stuff like that. So this is where it’s starting to hit the STL market Flores. SEO nurse are listening. You can actually take, and people have built software. I’m actually working with a developer, build a software where you can go and see, all right, here’s Google’s top ratings for how to make money online. The top 10 articles, take those top 10 articles, dump it into Jarvis or conversion.ai, re spin it. And then you have a brand new article, not plagiarized that you can now clean the top topics from those other articles. And you have your own on your own website without hiring an SEO. Right.
RV (22:39):
Interesting. Yeah. That’s interesting. Cause it’s like, it’s definitely not plagiarism. You’re literally not copying the words, but it’s kind of like you’re taking the concept and the content and then re re repurposing, which people have done for years as you go like, oh, look at what this, this, I want to research this search term. I’m going after this search term, this is the website. These are the 10 that have it. And you go, w you know, what are they doing? And then you’re just kind of like reverse engineering it. But you’re saying using a tool like this kind of like, does the reverse engineering for you? And then you kind of add your Polish and then you do this is like it’s almost like digital war games
Speaker 4 (23:22):
Is like
RV (23:24):
The, the, the future of, of this stuff is going, you know? And, and, and I think that to me, of going, like, when I hear somebody, like you talk at your, like, w dealing live in this world all the time, and I go, there’s a lot of people who don’t even know this is happening still. Like a lot of people are just like, what does SEO mean? And it’s like, Hey, you’re still living that world. Like, you got to pick it up here. Like, you need to do some binge listening of, of some influential, personal brand podcasts and like some stuff, because this is, this is where it’s at. And, and I think here’s what I think is amazing is there are like, this kind of tactic is kind of like a nimble small business tactic applied to a huge, big business concept of like SEO and keyword research.
RV (24:12):
And, you know, just like page optimization and traffic analytics. And there’s like this merger of these like small business hacks, and also small businesses are able to compete with big businesses without having to spend like massive dollars for the clicks because of, of, of techniques like this. And a lot of big businesses are trying to become more nimble and, and smaller businesses are being able to compete. Anyways, I’m coming back to the, to the international thing, you know, is there a place you can go to find great talent? I know you said you have an unfair advantage because your fiance those of us that are married should probably not go get a Russian fiance. Is there is there another way whether it’s Russia or, you know, you mentioned Argentina last time we’ve worked with some folks in Argentina, some creatives that were, have been really, really spectacular w finding the right people overseas, is there a way to do that other than the LinkedIn thing, cause that would lead you to some of those people? Probably.
HC (25:14):
Yeah. How I would do it if I did not have, like, Beyonce is, I would find similar to you kind of went over it, you conferences, finding the speakers that so you could find, if you want a social media person, you can find the top social media conferences in Russia, look at the speaker list and reach out to those speakers. And then just through those connections, figure out okay, who recommended them? Who are they working with? It’ll be a little bit tough because it OER in Russian. However, you can very quickly decipher, okay. Who are the best. But the, the good thing is, is that you’ll know, I, I you’ll be much more likely to be able to afford the best because their rates are so low. Okay. So you don’t have to do a lot of digging for a comparable rate because it’s going to be pretty comparable to what you might. Yeah.
RV (26:03):
So it’s kind of the same way you would, you would find like, who’s the top person, who’s the top expert on blank and English or whatever. Like you would just search it and you’d, you’d see it, but it would be in Russian, but you could also view it through Google translate and be able to kinda like read a lot of those sites. Yeah. And then, and then just reach out to them. You’re going, it’s not that hard to find the top people. It just be, you just wouldn’t have much relationship connection with them. So you got to like, you know, reach out to, or whatever,
HC (26:31):
But you’ll be, here’s the thing you’ll stand out because you’ll be a non rush and reaching out to them. They want to work. And we talked about this before. They really want to start branching out and working with American or Canadian or UK companies. And so if you reach out to them, they’re going to super excited. You may even get on the phone with the actual owner CEO of the company and they’ll bring their, their 18. Right. They’ll roll out the red carpet. And they many times I’ve, I’ve had like zoom call, interview calls with the owner, the, his right hand, man, and then three or four of their top project managers. I’m not sure if it’s a training car or whatever, just to, just to really put their best brains together to work on, on my, my businesses. Yeah.
RV (27:14):
I mean, that’s, that’s interesting. Guess it’s just people, it’s people and going, what, what do they want and how can I help them and where are they? And yeah, that, that’s super, super interesting. So w what I want to talk to you about the PR concept a little bit, so we didn’t get it to chat about this last time, but I, I wanted to understand this. I feel like, I feel like I’ve heard that you’ve created a similar kind of system, which is like, you know, just in general, I feel like how your brain is working. You’re constantly reverse engineering. What is like, you know, labor arbitrage is such a great concept. That’s such a great term. I’ll just go and how can I solve this problem in a different way, in a more efficient, economical way. And I feel like you developed some good process with this related to PR and publicity, which is obviously how we met. We, you know, we kind of met through this, this Forbes article, which wasn’t even under your name I noticed, or Celine’s like, I was working with you all, but somebody else wrote the article. Like I expected it to be under her pen name. And then I was like, oh, this didn’t even come out under her name. So I was like, clearly you were doing something there behind the scenes for relationship building. And like so how do you, like, how are you tackling some of this PR stuff and building relationships there?
HC (28:40):
So very similar I’m reaching out on LinkedIn. I’m just, this, one’s a lot more manual. I mean, when you want to develop a relationship with cause Forbes, contributors or entrepreneurs, they get messaged a lot. Right. And so I, I come in and I’m very, very, very focused on just providing value develop relationships. And once they, I give a lot of free advice and coaching or whatever for this area, they don’t get paid to contribute to these columns. Right. And so they have other businesses. So what I do is I come in and if we click on a good level, I will give free advice. I’m like, okay, I’ve grown up several companies. I’m what are you working on? A lot of them are in my niche, which is building websites for there. And so I give them a lot of value in exchange, not even exchange.
HC (29:30):
I just say, Hey, I have a PR company. This is not based on any exchange or anything, but if they’re a good fit or I have an article that you’d like to publish, like, could we work? You know, basically could I, could I interview some of my clients? And so if you think they’re a good fit and you might write about them, and that works really well, super relationship-based. And I just, I’ve been doing that for a couple of years now. So I’ve built up a really strong network of people that contribute to different magazines. And as I’m growing my personal brand, now I have ins with editors or, or people who can make decisions. So eventually when I build my personal brand, I can have my own columns as well.
RV (30:12):
Yeah. I mean, it’s, it’s, it’s crazy. Like I think, I think this wasn’t our conversation that I was saying, media is like the thing that has the littlest financial dollar value of anything you ever do short term, but this monster credibility and influence and relational power, which all leads to financial stuff later on. And and yeah, that’s, that’s the thing. Is this going like, what’s, what’s different about the world today is these people are accessible. Like you’re not going through some, like secretary on a phone tree, or like a, you know, some people blocking you to get to the writers. They’re all out there on LinkedIn and Twitter. They’re super easy to find. I mean, we got on good morning America last week because the guy I’d never even met he’s on Twitter. He saw some posts that we made about this national research study that we just, that my wife did that we just, we just published.
RV (31:13):
It’s just coming out now. And he was like, Hey, can I do an interview for you? And, and he reached out, you know, he’s ABC news.com and we’re like, sure, we did an interview. He didn’t even say it was going to be on good morning, America. We thought it was going to be on some late night, late night show that he does. We, we knew he was reputable, but then, then they rerun the story on good morning, America. The next morning, we didn’t even know some, our friend was like, Hey, did you know? You’re a good morning America? And it’s like, they’re there, they’re there. They’re right there. It’s,
HC (31:43):
It’s incredible. Yeah. I mean, I would say maybe three or four, three or four years ago. I, I had no social media for, I still don’t. I haven’t worked on it, but know nothing about me. I met some guy and we became friends. We hit it off. Same thing. We just were talking about business. He wrote an article. This what happened. I found his article on Reddit, reached out to him about, I love your article. We just started talking. And I was like, Hey, something working for me. I figured out a way to hack Cora. And I got a million views in less than 45 days. So I was like, Hey, I don’t know if you’ve heard about this, but I did this. And you know, I don’t know what you’re working on, but maybe you can work at di didn’t expect anything in return.
HC (32:23):
It turns out he was a contributor for entrepreneur. Ended up reaching back out to me like couple weeks later, like, Hey man, I was thinking about your core hack. I’d like to write about it. Had a full feature done on me in entrepreneur, out of nowhere. And then we’ve just became really good friends after that. And yeah, if you’re just providing value out there and you want to be strategic, you can provide that value to contributors of these large publications that you can find on LinkedIn, but you’re not going in saying, Hey, I want you to write an article about me. It’s like you go in and you find out, okay, they might be someone you were friends with. They happen to write for whatever publication, just
RV (33:00):
How can you help them? Which is the, which is true of anything. Like that’s the way you build relationship with anybody is you go, what can I do for you? How can I support you? Who can I introduce you to? Like, what tip can I give you? Can I share your stuff? Like, can I volunteer at your conference? Can I give you an endorsement? Can I like give you a retweet? Like it’s, and this is what people like, just don’t understand. And it’s so freaking simple as you go, how can I add value to this person’s life? What can I, and that’s why, you know, it’s funny. Cause I think Hanson that one of our brand builders courses is called podcast powered and we, you know, we teach people like, Hey, here’s how to like create a unique podcast and the technology. And here’s how you like deal with the, the premise of the show and you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, like everything you needed to know to like launch an awesome podcast.
RV (33:49):
And one of the things that we always tell people is we go look, the best reason to rock launch a podcast is not because of the money you’ll make it’s it’s, you know, hopefully because you’ll impact a bunch of people. But even if like you don’t have that many listeners, there is no faster way to meet. Like anybody you want then to go, Hey, I have a show. Can I interview you? Can I tell my audience about your book, about your website, about your column? I mean, it’s just the, it is the most incredible networking tool in the history of mankind, because you could, you could email that person a million times and call them and they would never respond. And you’re like, Hey, I’d like to interview you. And this is the power of writing for entrepreneur or for Forbes. The it’s, it’s, it’s one of the things I’m doing at success now is I’m you know, here you go.
RV (34:41):
Like we were friends before and now suddenly I’m the entrepreneurship editor of success magazine. That wasn’t even a thing. I don’t think when we met. And you know, there’s all these people that it’s like, they would never respond to me, but now it’s like, because I want to interview them. They’re like, yeah, of course. When do you know is next week? Okay. And it’s like, this is crazy. Like the power of being the media is it, you know, it’s just crazy and anyone can start a podcast or a blog. And then if you get a chance to write for entrepreneur or Forbes or any of these, like Celine does, I mean, it’s lien rights for ton of these. But you’re just giving value to them. Yeah. What you’re doing right here, right here for us. That’s so cool. Y’all so anyways, Hanson is as you could tell, he’s a real smart guy.
RV (35:28):
Like he’s kind of like that guy where you go, I need something. I don’t know who to talk to. I should, I should, I should hit up Hanson and see what he thinks about this. Because if he doesn’t do it, I’m sure he knows no. So who does it? And if you’re going, Hey, I need someone to like build some systems and processes so that my business isn’t like completely dependent on me all the time for everything and every question and every problem freedom, freedom to ascend.com, right? Is your website. That’s where you want people. Where do you want people to go to learn about you?
HC (35:59):
Yeah, they can come to your website. They, if they want to reach me personally they can go to Instagram. My Instagram handle is Canson. Shane H a N S O N C H E N G G
RV (36:11):
Extra G on your instant handle. Cause someone stole your,
HC (36:15):
Another Hanson. J was a little bit quicker on the trigger. Yeah.
RV (36:19):
Chang’s a kind of a tough, that’s a tough last name, man. I mean, you, you got S E N G, but it’s like, it’s like being Smith or Williams or something. You’re just like, you got a lot of people out there you’re racing to secure URLs and yeah. Before social
HC (36:35):
Media, I thought it had a very unique name, but I think there was like seven or eight aunts and chains in the United States. Yeah. Yeah.
RV (36:42):
I, I, my, I got lucky with the Rory thing is there’s not a ton of, not a ton of Rory’s, but I always feel so, so sorry for someone where it’s like, yeah, I have, like, I have one of, one of my buddies is Mark Brown.
Speaker 4 (36:54):
It’s like, oh man,
RV (36:55):
Like good luck. Like good luck. That’s that’s, that’s tough. But anyways man, super creative practical. Thank you for these tips. And we just wish you the best Hansen. Yeah. I look forward to getting to know you more and, you know, seeing how you work on, on these projects and stuff and, and just good luck to you, man.
HC (37:16):
Awesome. Thank you so much again for having me on the Chevron,
RV (37:20):
The good news Hanson. It looks like this has been recorded.

Ep 201: How To Get a $10 Million Business Valuation with Kevin Kruse | Recap Episode

RV (00:02):
Hey, welcome back to the influential personal brand podcast. It’s your friend Rory Vaden joined by my wife and our CEO, AJ Vaden. We are breaking down the interview that we did with Kevin Kruse. One of our longtime friends who is really successful entrepreneur done several wonderful things and just someone that we look to that expands our horizons and thinking on everything it means to be an entrepreneur and in leadership. So AJ welcome back. Good to see you happy to be here. So why don’t you kick us off, let’s dive into our, our three biggest takeaways from Kevin. And you go, you do it first.
AJV (00:45):
Yeah, so my first one is short sweet and simple, but I think I fundamental building block of entrepreneurship and something that every single person should be asking themselves as they dive into. Do I want to build a business? And if the answer is, yes, how do I want to build a business? And I love this and he talked about it for quite a bit. And I think it’s just really important. And I had never really heard this before or even gone through this process myself. And he said, but as you are in the beginning stages of building your business, ask yourself this question, is this a lifestyle business, or are you building a business that you will want and, or require employees? And so it’s like, are you building a business that you can manage with maybe one team member or a partner or a spouse, or are you actually building a business that will need and require employees? Because those are two very distinctly different businesses with two sets of different responsibilities and outcomes and plans and budgets and time and all the things. And really what that comes down to is you have to, you have to ask yourself, do you want to be leading and managing others? Yes or no. And that will very much dictate the type of business you build. And so it’s really helpful if you know that on the front end.
RV (02:09):
Yeah, that’s good. That’s good. That reminds me of you know, like Dave Ramsey has a thousand employees and everyone comes to work and they’re like full-time. And then one of our other friends and mentors, Andy Andrews has built his whole bursal brand with zero employees. And they are both very successful in their space. I love that. One of the things kind of similar for me was, was my takeaway is that there were kind of like three primary ways that a business is valued. And again, it’s sorta like, you know this, but you don’t zoom out and go, oh, like, this is, this is very simple. This is how it comes down or what it comes down to is that basically a business can be valued on just the assets. What are the, what are the assets worth of a company? So you got, you know, whatever buildings and, and, you know, intellectual property and equipment.
RV (02:58):
And then the most common way that businesses are valued is that they are valued as a multiple of EBITDA earnings before interest taxes, depreciation and amortization, which effectively is profits, right? So there’s a multiple of your profits. And then the third one, which is kind of the fun one that we were talking about on this interview, which is the world that Kevin lives in, and this is playing in is to be a, that businesses can be valued based on a multiple of revenue. So a top line valuation versus a bottom line valuation of profits. And so that is going to mean the value of that company is many times more what the value of a company that is based on, on a bottom line valuation is, you know, is worth. And I thought, you know, that’s just good to know, like if you don’t know, those are the three primary ways that a business is valued. And then I think much of the conversation was which ones are valued at the top line multiple. And what do you do? And how do you get to have, have one of those, which was, which was fun. So that was, that was my first takeaway. Yeah.
AJV (04:05):
My second is kind of a dovetail off of that and the great and powerful conversation that was had around subscription revenue versus service revenue, or one time revenue and how that is just such a key indicator of the way that businesses are evaluated today. And there’s just so much power in subscription-based revenue, specifically, SAS subscription-based revenue versus this one time, a service revenue. And it’s not necessarily to say that one is better than the other, but they are uniquely different. I haven’t had very different valuations. So again, back to, for all of you who are in the beginning stages, what a blessed and overwhelming time that you’re in but really knowing how do you want to set this up? And it’s really, I gathered, and this is how I garnered my internalization of this information. It’s am I building this business to keep it, or am I building this business to sell it?
AJV (05:06):
And in that case, you need to have a long-term valuation strategy in your mind as you’re building out your products and services. And just going, it’s like if you’re building to sell, then subscription-based revenue with a high emphasis on SAS, right? So software as a service would be a key part of making sure you get the highest valuation and the highest sale. But if you’re building it to keep, that’s a different story. And so I think, again, it’s, you know, to me, it’s back to, do you want to manage and lead others? And then are you building this to keep or sell again, it goes back to those fundamental building blocks of how do you build a business that you’re actually going to enjoy and want to do for the longterm. It’s having those two things in mind.
RV (05:51):
Yeah. And so much of being a successful leader is always about like, you know, thinking about the big picture up front and that’s that certainly applies, applies here. And, you know, if you’re going to do the lifestyle business, you might choose to do things that are less stressful. Like maybe they have less value long-term, but there may be less stressful. And my second takeaway was related to that, just a another fundamental, which is the concept of churn. You hear that term churn and to what you were just saying, AJ I think, you know, when you have recurring revenue, you typically have higher valuations. The other thing is recurring revenue is also typically more stabilized revenue, which even if you never plan on selling it and you don’t care about the valuation, recurring revenue is an incredible way to run your business.
RV (06:43):
Another thing that we teach people all the time and in our, in our eight figure entrepreneur courses that a business worth selling looks a whole lot like a business worth keeping. And so you know, recurring revenue is very healthy, regardless if you’re going to sell it or keep it. But if you’re doing recurring revenue, the number one metric you want to look at is churn. And it’s just super simple. If you start the year with a hundred, what did you end the year with? Did it, was it more than a hundred? If so, you know, that’s, that’s a positive churn. If it’s less than a hundred, it’s a negative churn. And when you look at, you know, the value of that company, that’s one of the key metrics they’re looking at. And if you’re just keeping it as a lifestyle business, that should just be a metric you’re looking at to assess kind of the health of your revenue in the, in the delivery is, do you have positive or, or negative churn another symbol fundamental concept that has really, really big long-term impact. So that, that was my number two. What was your, what was your, your third takeaway for Kevin? Yeah. Well, just
AJV (07:45):
A quick thing on that. I think that’s w that’s just a huge concept to wrap your mind around is that if you are building a business to sell it’s, that buyers investors are actually looking for only positive churn. Like it’s not even like a break even it’s like, no, I only want to see growth year over year. So the idea of losing anyone is not in your favor. I just really think that’s really important. And that really brings up the discussion of, again, if you’re building to sell, it’s like, what’s your retention plan? What’s your customer care plan. What’s your, all the things plan. And again, there’s just so many things that kind of go into this of going, if you’re going to have only positive turn and only seek growth numbers, there’s more than you just involved. Let’s just call it what it is.
AJV (08:30):
And so, again, it’s just knowing all these things and being able to see the end in mind as you have the opportunity to start something new and fresh. And I think that’s really important so many times as you know, startup entrepreneurs, we’re looking 30 days ahead, and this is requiring you to look 10 years ahead. All right. And so again, all the things that I think just are important as you’re making those beginning decisions that definitely have domino effects in the weeks, months, and years to come. But my final point not to go on a tangent is just hearing his interpretation and his forecast about how the future of business is in apps, no matter how you slice it. But it’s just like, there is such a demand for SAS products, specifically apps that there is just no wiggle room of getting your way out of it.
AJV (09:24):
If you’re, if you want to build an enterprise business or an eight figure business or a business that will sell, it’s like, this is an inevitable, at some point, this is going to be a part of your business. And that’s, that’s Kevin’s interpretation. I know that’s not the only one in the world but that was his. And I think that was really interesting to hear that there’s such a heavy, infinite emphasis on the app because as a consumer, I I’m overwhelmed by the option of apps. And so to have that many more apps just seems overwhelming to me, it’s like walking into TJ Maxx and there’s so many things in so many places, like I don’t even know where to look and I feel that way a lot about apps. And it’s like, I don’t need a thousand apps on my phone where I only look at one on a daily basis.
AJV (10:10):
And so I thought it was really fascinating to hear his forecast and his prediction of that. And then also comparing it to my user experience where I use apps, but there are very few that I use on a daily basis. And so I think a lot of that comes to the innovation and ingenuity of how do you make an app that becomes a part of someone’s daily routine, not just to have an app for the sake of having an app. I don’t think we need more of that. It’s like, where, where does the app come in play where it’s like, no, it really becomes a part of my daily routine and a necessary part of how I find information, processed information, store information. And I think that’s like a whole nother discussion, but I would say his prediction and my interpretation were very, very different. Yeah.
RV (10:55):
But that’s funny that, yeah, there’s so many apps. Well, and certainly it’s like, there is a dependency on technology for sure. And the value of it is, you know, technology doesn’t call in sick. It doesn’t go on vacation. It’s like, it’s there all the time. It sure does break. It sure does have code updates and bug fixes and all that. But that, you know, my third takeaway was also around apps. And, and to what you’re saying, one of the things that I felt nudged by was like, Hey, we need to, we need to work on it. We need a brand builders app. Like we need to start getting going on this. And just like you’re saying incorporating into people’s daily lives. And, and I think that’s really cool. But when he was talking about building the app specifically, I thought this was a super valuable lesson where he said, the more you can describe it in detail before you start building the app is like the more valuable and, and, and the more likely that app is to succeed. It’s just like you have to do the work of, of translating and documenting as much of that user experience of what it’s going to be like when they open the app on paper, before coding and development ever, ever starts. And
AJV (12:07):
Well, I think that’s similar to anything in life, right? It’s like even at brand builders group, you know, we’re a strategy firm. And, you know, somebody recently said to me, and I thought this was said to, you know, interesting to sit to say thing to say to me since I’m, you know, the CEO of a strategy firm. And they were like, I’m just a firm believer that execution eats strategy for lunch. And I was like, yeah, but what happens when you execute with no plan, right? And it’s so much wasted time and money and energy and frustration. And it’s like the power in strategies, what you just said. It’s like, the more that you can Strat strategically know, what is this do? Who is it for? What’s the benefit? What problem does it ha you know, what problem does it solve? How am I going to have market reach? It’s like the more that you know, that on the developer side, the more efficiently and effectively they are to build this. And that goes to same with building your personal brand, right? The more that you have the strategy in place, you can go to any vendor in the world and have a quality execution plan. Not to say that any vendor will do a good job, but at least you have a plan. Someone is able to execute without having a plan. You’re just throwing mud on a wall and hoping some of it sticks.
Speaker 3 (13:24):
I don’t think that’s a really good plan. No,
RV (13:26):
I don’t. I, I think it’s kinda like, you know, if you were going to set out on a sailboat, you know, execution is saying, all right, let’s learn how to pull up the sales. And let’s just go and, and not knowing how to guide the ship or where you’re aiming or where you’re going to. You’re just like wherever the wind takes me. And people do that all the time. When they build websites and they launch their brand and they write books, it’s just this kind of like often running and it’s expensive. Like it’s not only is it waste time and ineffective. It’s expensive. So amen to, to, to the power and the importance of that. You gotta be dialed in on that strategy and design it on paper before you design it in real life. Like if I had to grab it all in one sentence, that’s how I would say it. Design it on paper before you design it in real life. That’s your company, that’s your website. That’s your road trip. It’s your life plan?
AJV (14:18):
It’s your marriage. It’s your finances. It’s your home. It’s all the things. Yeah. Yeah.
RV (14:24):
So anyways, any, any other thoughts on that one?
AJV (14:28):
This is good. I feel like anyone who is an aspiring entrepreneur, a startup entrepreneur, or an entrepreneur who wants to sell their company one day needs to listen to this episode. Yeah,
RV (14:40):
Totally big, big one for entrepreneurs, real life stuff. And a, well, there, you have it. Go check out the full episode if you haven’t listened to it and either way, make sure you keep coming back. We’ll catch you here next time on the influential personal brand podcast.

Ep 200: How To Get A $10 Million Business Valuation with Kevin Kruse

RV (00:02):
I’m excited to introduce you to one of my quote unquote, real entrepreneur friends. I, today I use that, you know, air quotes just because, you know, personal brands and information marketing. I, I love, I mean, it’s my, my life it’s been our life. But I, I kind of think of it as distinctly different from most entrepreneurs, which are people who, you know, build a widget or a service or something that is not built around the person that has a true enterprise value. And we, we often don’t get to hear from a lot of those people. And so the reason that I brought on Kevin, so who you’re about to meet Kevin Cruz is a long time friend of mine. I mean, at this point we’ve probably known each other closer to 10 years and just kind of been in the circle. So as a personal brand, he’s very successful.
RV (00:54):
He is a New York times bestselling author of nine books. One of his books is called unlimited clients. He wrote one called 15 secrets. Successful people know about time management, which is really when I think our paths really kind of crossed. And then he wrote one called great leaders, have no rules. So he understands personal branding, but as an entrepreneur or an executive he was a co-founder at a company called Connexa, which went IPO, initial public offering. And then eventually got acquired by IPM IBM. He’s also had other companies, a company called ACI, a company called Axiom professional health learning a company just those companies also were acquired. And today he is the founder and the CEO of lead X, which is fascinating. It is an AI powered platform. So artificial intelligence that helps companies scale leadership behaviors and employee engagement. So he knows a lot about SAS software as a service. He knows a lot about personal branding, knows a lot about entrepreneurship. And anyways, I just felt like you got to hear some of the wisdom from Kevin Cruz. So buddy, welcome to the show.
KK (02:07):
Thanks for having me. I’m looking forward to chatting. I have no idea what you’re going to ask me, which is going to make this even more fun. Well, yeah,
RV (02:14):
I mean, I think, you know, I, I was mentioned to you before the show that brain builders group, we’ve got our curriculum and it’s divided into four phases. And our fourth phase is, is, is all really built around what we call eight figure entrepreneur, which is scaling a personal brand into a business and to a real business. And, and I guess my first question would be around that, which is what do you think? Personal brands, people who build personal brands either don’t know or don’t understand, or don’t see when it comes to building an actual business with enterprise value, like, what are they not aware of? And, and you know, that like how do, how do they not think, or how do they think differently than how kind of like a traditional entrepreneur might think?
KK (03:08):
Yeah. And I don’t know it’s a great starting place. And, and I don’t think of it as as a traditional entrepreneur that there’s different kinds of entrepreneurs. I think, I think it’s just, what are you focused on? What do you want? What I mean by that is I think a fundamental question and, and Roy, this is a journey I went on, you know, I, a fundamental question, when you decide to go into business for yourself, is, are you looking to be like a solo practitioner or do you want employees? Because that is a big thing, right? There are, are, do you want to be selling and delivering the work? So, and having a lifestyle, quote, unquote lifestyle business, and you make a ton of money doing that. If you get your brand to the right level and provide a lot of value, or do you want to build a business and it could be a small business, a five person business, a 50 person business that’s a big first question.
KK (03:57):
And if you decide, I don’t want to just be a consultant or a coach, I want to have a consulting practice. I want a coaching practice that gives you some scale. And that decision alone gives you the flexibility in that it’s rare for someone to buy a one person business. Because if that one person gets hit by a bolt of lightning, then you’ve lost the value. You’ve lost the business. But if I’ve built a 10 person coaching company, a 10 person consulting company, there is something there that even if I get hit by a bus tomorrow, there’s nine other coaches and the revenue will keep flowing in. So that’s a big decision. That’s a big wealth multiplier. And I did that the first few businesses when I, when I was younger. But then I saw the power of SAS software and SAS software. The valuations are incredibly different. So if you took a, a $1 million consulting company,
RV (04:58):
Yeah. Let’s talk about valuations for a second and just assume like ticket from the beginning, like, assume someone’s listening. Like they’re going, Hey, I used to be an employee. I started a personal brand. I’ve never even had the conversation about what a multiple is, or even though, or how, how it works, right? Yes.
KK (05:15):
Right. Okay. So if some, if someone, if I want to come along and buy your company, the fundamental question is, you know, what’s it worth, what’s a fair amount and everybody sort of who does this, they’re sort of rules of thumb about it. And, and there are times when valuations, the price of your company, the valuation is lower. Other times it’s higher. Like right now, valuations are very high historically. But kind of a rule is if it’s a service business, you’re going to get your company is going to get valued on a multiple of your profits. So if you’re making, if you have a million dollar, I’m just making round numbers. If you have a million dollar business with a hundred dollars in profit every year, I might come along and I’ll say, I’m going to give you,
RV (06:02):
Hold on a second. So Jessie, you’re saying a million dollar revenue per a hundred thousand in profits. So that’s a 10% profit margin,
KK (06:09):
10% profit margin. And I’m just using round numbers. Sure. I would say to you, I’m going to give you a multiple, a multiplier on that profit. Now it might be seven times the profit. It might be 10 times the profit. If I really like you and you’re growing, maybe I’ll give you 12 times that profit, but you’re basically going to take that hundred thousand dollars of profit and multiply it. Let’s say by 10 and your, your business is worth a million dollars. Okay. So on a service business, they’re viewed as no, there’s nothing wrong with them, but okay. They’re going to probably grow a little more slowly. And they’re complicated because at the end of the day, you’re selling hours. So if I’m going to double the size of the business, I need to double the number of hours I’m selling and delivering.
RV (06:56):
Like that’s the widget. The widget is an hour of somebody’s time.
KK (07:00):
Beautiful, right? Yes. That’s, that’s the widget. Now let’s, let’s say though, that you can figure out how to package your value into something that people will pay a subscription for. And it might be an app. It might be a piece of software that’s traditionally what it, what it is, but the entire world is moving to a subscription economy. We can go down that rabbit hole later, but let’s say now, but you’ll see
RV (07:30):
That with Disney plus. And like, everybody’s gone from like rent a movie at blockbuster to Netflix and Disney, moving to Disney plus and discovery plus, and they’re all there. Everyone’s doing that.
KK (07:41):
Everyone’s doing that. And it used to be when I was selling software connects in the early days, we would go to a company and say, Hey, give us a million dollars. And we’ll put this on your servers. You’re going to pay us 1,000,001 time. And there might be a maintenance fee, a service fee. But like you own that instance of the software by selling a subscription. I say, you know what, you’re only going to have to pay us $200,000, but you pay us year after year after year. And so it’s smaller upfront and you get all the upgrades, you get all the service, but you’re kind of locked in over time. And so back to that valuation, let’s take the same million dollar company with a hundred thousand dollar profit. So the numbers are the same in the business, but if it’s a subscription business, all of a sudden the valuation is a multiple off your revenue, not your profit.
KK (08:30):
So I’m going to say like right now, multiply the multiples on a, a, a SAS business, a small SAS business. It’s going to be 10 to 30 times revenue. So if you’ve got your million dollar company there and it’s SAS, I’m going to look at it. Now, look, if it’s like, if I say, ah, I don’t, I don’t trust the leadership. I think Rory’s going to quit on, or he’s not as good as he thinks he is. Or they’ve got some problems here or they’ve got a big competitor that they’re feeling pressure, or maybe they’re just not growing that much. All right. Maybe I’m going to value at one times revenue. So you’re back down the worst case scenario, a million dollars more than likely, I’m going to say, wow, you’re a, you’re a smart thinking entrepreneur who made this SAS business, you’re growing faster than a service business and your profit margins are going to get higher because you’re not selling hours. Once you build the widget, you can sell it over and over and over again. So I’m going to give you to you know, anywhere from, from 20 to 30 times revenue. So if you have a $1 million SAS business ballpark, you’re going to get 10 million to $30 million valuation on that business today now.
RV (09:48):
And if I have a service-based business that does a million dollars in revenue, then I might only get a few hundred thousand, maybe half a million or a million bucks would be 10, multiple, a 10, multiple on a hundred thousand in profit. If I got a 10 multiple of EBITDA on a service-based business, a service-based business to an a million in revenue might be worth a million dollars. A SAS business, doing a million in revenue might be 10 to 30. It’s 20,
KK (10:16):
$30 million. Today is the valuation of that business. That’s how high is that? So it’s assumed that the S that the whole world like software is eating the world. SAS is eating software. So the assumption is if you’re selling a million dollars today and did nothing, the market is going to demand more of that SAS. And again, like if we’re selling time, I’ve got to sell that same time. And this is, I mean, let me just, let’s just talk real world. Back when I had a dozen service professionals, we would build custom training programs for Pfizer pharmaceuticals. Okay, great. We’d land a million dollar project. You’re saying you actually did this. You had, this was one of my businesses in, when I was 25 to 30 years old. This was one of the businesses I sold.
RV (11:06):
You got 12 people on your team and build a custom training program,
KK (11:11):
Right? So we go to Pfizer. We say, Hey, let’s, let’s build some workshops and some training, and we’ll go teach all your reps about sales and leadership and all this. And we get a million dollar contract. Wow. That’s fantastic. Well, what happens January of the next year? Rory I’m back at zero again. So just to get the same level, I got to go back to Pfizer or a new company and say, Hey, do you want a million more dollars worth of workshops? You got to sell it to them all over again, but now what do I do today? I go to fight. Well, I won’t, I won’t say we go to Pfizer. I go to Northwestern mutual. So world’s largest a life insurance company, financial service company. I say to them, don’t give me a million dollars for give me hundreds of thousands of dollars for this leadership app for this subscription. And you’re going to give it to me year after year after year. And they say, okay, and now suddenly I’ve got that 20 multiple, because my leadership training is through a subscription model. It’s not through Kevin showing up in front of the classroom, guiding them through because I’m selling my time.
RV (12:21):
Yeah. Now when you talk about subscriptions revenue, okay, so you have like service revenue, which is this one-time revenue subscription revenue is I’m paying on repeat, but inside of subscription revenue, like coaching, like you can sell a coaching program that subscription revenue is that multiple higher, lower, or the same than like a software subscription revenue.
KK (12:44):
Great question. So, five years ago, it wouldn’t have counted as subscription. Like it had to be softer. People be like, ah, that’s still, even though you’re subscribing, you’re still selling hours. We don’t believe that today you will get credit for that subscription service revenue. If, if you can show that the clients are buying more every single year. So if you sell a subscription to Kevin and I don’t renew, they’re gonna be like, eh, that’s, that’s not really subscription. He’s not keeping it going beyond six months, 12 months. But if you say, you know what, Kevin gave me whatever, $5,000 for consulting services, you know, in 2021. And then in 2022, he gave me 6,000. It was so good. He wanted to keep it up, but he, he elevated to the next level, you know, the 2 0 1 level course. And the year after that, he escalated to 3 0 1.
KK (13:40):
You will get credit for that revenue today, but they are, they want to see negative churn. So churn is a term about when you lose your customers. So if I have a hundred customers, you know, at the start of the year, at the end of the year, I’ve only got 80. I churned 20% of them. Well, they want to see as you start the year of the a hundred customers. And at the end of the year, you’ve got the same hundred and they’re giving you more money at the end of the year than the beginning of the year. So it’s all about are, is it follow the dollar? So it doesn’t have to be software, but software so powerful, but even if it’s not software, are the clients renewing and expanding renew.
RV (14:21):
And you think that service based subscription revenue, let’s say it has negative churn. You think it would get, this could get a similar multiple as a software revenue. They are Roy,
KK (14:35):
Let me, we’ll just, I’ll just say it. So the giant company out there called better up many coaches will have heard of them or be part of the better up platform. Okay. They have been raising hundreds of millions of dollars. They just latest hire was prince Harry. And they’re raising it out of Silicon valley as a tech company, even though they’re selling ours. Now they have a little app that kind of tracks the sessions. I’m sure, you know, there’s, there’s other platforms out there that do that. And the reason why, and for, for years, many of us traditional software SAS are like, how are they pulling the wool over everyone’s eyes? Like this is crazy. And it turns out, I mean, the there’s so much money in the markets that better up is getting valuations. Maybe not as pure as a true software company, but, but like a SAS. I mean, it’s like, Hey, they’re custom, they’re adding customers. Those customers are buying more this year, over last year. There’s a little bit of a tech component. Boom. Let’s give them that 10 to 30 multiple. So
RV (15:44):
That’s amazing. That’s, that’s really, really fascinating. You know, because, so, so, all right. So let me ask you this. When the role of personal brand, you’ve done SAS, you’ve done subscription revenue. What, where’s the real opportunity for personal brands to develop subscription revenue? Like, what are, if you just said, let’s only talk subscription revenue for personal brands, what are different ways they could pull that together? And like, how might that actually look in real life?
KK (16:21):
Yeah. So I think in real life, I mean, you know, so I’ve, I’ve started over several times in the last, you know, 30 plus years, including, you know like when I did the 15 secrets book, I wasn’t known as a time and productivity expert. You were, I mean, other people were, I wasn’t. But when I launched that book, I said, all right, well, you know, let me spend a couple of years earning my, keep, you know, in, in this area, you know, royalties, coaching, keynotes then you start by, then you start adding on, right? So you do the, the the group coaching programs. So that’s the easiest thing. Hey, you’re going to give me now the traditional model is you give me, you know, $2,000, you’re going to get all this online, digital video content. Plus every week you’re going to hop on the phone with me, we’ll have a live group session, and you’re going to go into a Facebook group forever.
KK (17:15):
Okay. That’s a good start. But if you’re buying more time in the values in those videos, you don’t have to deliver it all yourself. But instead of it being, give me $2,000 and you get this eight week program, give me X thousand dollars and you’re in the monthly forever program. And in fact, I don’t know if if you follow him, but a lot of coaches out there know Brendon Burchard who has a pretty big brand, right? And his high performance academy is big and he’s look, he’s successful. He’s got a, of people would like to have his brand and his books in his full workshops. He’s launching an app. I called the growth app or something like that right now. Yeah. So a growth day growth day. There you go. So even someone as successful as, at that level, they realize, wow, all this money I’m making by scaling my personal brand and delivering and all the ways he delivers the ultimate way to scale is get someone to build an app that people will pay for month after month after month. Now, I think a bigger question, Rory is if I can, everybody should do this. Who’s going to be serious about this space. You know, you’re not just buying a talk. You’re not just buying a book. You’re not just buying a two month program. You’re subscribing the way I would to Fitbit or Peloton or something like that. This, you know, this is your ongoing fitness program for the topic of X, you know, whatever your, your expertise is.
RV (18:47):
So let’s talk about apps because on the, on the one hand, it’s like, great. Let’s, let’s build an app and get a million dollars in revenue and sell it for 10 million, no big deal. Like that sounds great. Let’s can we let’s do it this weekend? What do we do this afternoon? Grab a beer. The reality. Okay. Talk to us about the reality of, of apps. You had to go there. You had to say reality. How do we, how do you build one? What does it take? How much does it cost? Where do you find the people? What’s the w w like, give us a, give us a reality check. Cause, cause I mean, literally you’re saying build an app, get a million dollars of, of, you know, ARR annual recurring revenue, and that you might be able to sell that thing for 10 to 20 to 30 million bucks. That seems like a pretty good plan. Talk to us about the actual roadblock it takes to get there. Okay.
KK (19:41):
So let me, let me give you real data, but then, then start with a smaller version of it. So as an example, roughly if Lalit X app is doing a million dollars in annual recurring revenue today, and we are getting valued at around $20 million, what did it take to build that million dollar app? Well, it has taken me four years and about $4 million of investment into building that app. Wow. A million dollars of revenue that I’ve spent four years and a lot of investment putting into that’s one way looking at wow. He spent 4 million and he’s only doing a million a year, the other way, look at his, he spent 4 million in four years and just got a valuation of $20 million. So there’s another, you know, there’s the upside to it. Where do you get that startup capital? I didn’t start on day one with 4 million.
KK (20:33):
So in my case, you know, I was able to self-fund for awhile, but I went to friends and family angel investors and got enough money to do this. Right. Like I I’ve done this before. So it was like, Hey, I’m going to hire a software engineer. I’m going to hire a software designer. I’m going to hire, you know, there’s going to be a small team and we’re going to put a million in and every year and let’s raise that first million and grow. Now, that’s not the way I started doing things 30 years ago though. And I think the easiest thing to, first of all, it’s cheaper than ever before to launch software, right? So it’s whether you’re, you’re buying developers, you know, off of Upwork or whatever it is, whether you’re renting server space on AWS, it is easier and cheaper than ever before to do this.
KK (21:27):
It doesn’t mean it’s cheap and easy. It’s cheaper and easier than ever before. And you know, one of the things that I did with lead ex learning from experiences, I went out and got a technical co-founder, you know, so I Lucas Carlson is my CTO. And there’s different ways you can structure those deals, but you know, you can, if you have money, you can hire an engineer or a couple of engineers to do it. You can outsource to a small firm to build your app, although like outsourcing anything, pros and cons cheap and easy, and you turn on, but like they screw it up or they go out of business and there goes,
RV (22:03):
They ghost you like the, the biggest, the biggest pain on this is getting reliable kelp and people to be responsive and hit deadlines and show up and do what they say they’re going to do. I mean, that’s the 1%,
KK (22:20):
If you’re working with individual contractors, they just, there’s often a reason why their individual contractors, you know, the reason why they’re not employed by somebody. And again, like I learned that the hard way I lost a lot of money and more important, lost time by going to like, Hey, you know, here, I’m a F I’m a full service app developer in whatever country around the world for $2,000, I can build drive. Hey, sounds great. Go. And it’s horrible. It’s terrible. There’s no responsiveness. You’ll spend a lot more going to a small company, maybe one in, you know, in your state or in your country that is geographically, you know, nearby, but they’re going to be more reliable. They’re not going to disappear or ghost you. So it’s not Rory, what I want to say is, first of all, any anyone out there who already has like, they’re already well into six figures, they have a small consulting firm.
KK (23:14):
They should have a digital transformation, subscription strategy in place. Like if I was running a five person consulting firm or coaching firm, I would say, okay, we’re not gonna do this overnight, but how are we going to launch an app one year from today? Like you just have to do it now, if you’re a one person personal brand, you know and you want to do that, your app doesn’t have to do everything. You know? W what is it you want the app to do? Is it just gonna deliver videos? Is it gonna be a little financial calculator? Is it going to be a way for you to give them messages every morning? There’s a lot of different things you could do, and you just add to it, iterate it, make it better, make it better, and then you’ll, you’ll grow it.
RV (23:54):
Huh. And then in terms of app, like what do, what do I need to know as a non-technical person about the language? You know, like what programming languages do they write in? What skills do I have to ask them if they have like, cause you know, I think most entrepreneurs are not the coder that like you’re saying, you, you bring in at, it helps to bring in a technical partner. But like, I mean, is that basically it is going, Hey, you got to have someone that’s a technical partner.
KK (24:28):
Well, no, well you need to either have a technical partner or hire your technical partner, you know, as an outsider. And now I am not technical. So I don’t know, like, I, I don’t know enough about any of those things you asked about to like, maybe I should, you know, but to me what’s most important is not just having the general vision, like, Hey vendor, Hey freelancer. I’m a, I’m a coach in this area and I want to make an app. Like the more you can describe it in detail, the user opens it up and they’re going to see a picture of me or they’re going to open it up and it’s going to ask them to enter their goal, or they’re going to open it up and they’re going to inter there are three strengths, like whatever you need to translate, the big picture into what does the user do when they open the app?
KK (25:22):
That’s what you need to do. And then a good partner will sketch it. Like in, you know, they call it like wireframes templates though. They’ll mock it up before they code it. So then you would say to them, all right. So I’ve told you the use case, you know, I’m a, I’m a fitness coach and I specialize in working with busy executives over age 50. So I want them to be able to put in their, their weight and their fitness goal. And then I want them to look at exercises and have a meal plan. All right. Great. Well specifically, what do you want? Go down, down, down, and then your partner should give you almost like a set of slides or PowerPoint. Okay. Here’s when you open the app, it looks like this and it might be a sketch. It might be placeholders. It might be a stock image, not a picture of Rory on there, but then you’re going to say, oh no I didn’t mean that.
KK (26:18):
I meant this over here. You almost design it on paper before they then design it in, you know, in real life. And the only other key I would say is, is iterate. Keep the loops very short. You know, we, it used to be when I was doing e-learning software, we would work on quarterly releases and people thought that was fast. So every 90 we tell our clients, Hey, over the weekend, we’re going to release this new version. Here’s, what’s new in it. We do releases every week now. So it might be, Hey, let’s add a disc assessment and boom. Now that’s the release of this week. Next week, it’s going to be a new performance report. It’s going to be a new set of nudges or whatever it might be. So just think about, it’s not like you design it and someone’s going to deliver it a year from now.
KK (27:07):
No, you tell your partner, here’s my design. And I want, I want a delivery that I can actually a minimum viable product, an MVP, a minimum viable product. I want an MVP in 30 days. And then they can say, well, what you’ve asked for is too much. And then you say, okay, well what can you do in 30 days? And then boom, they deliver it. And you give them feedback, add a new feature and they deliver it again in 30 days. So it’s more about iteration and, and, and never stopping. You know, it’s always, it’s always improving.
RV (27:37):
And then when do you go for revenue? I mean, do you just like right out of the gate as soon as you can. And do you do, is it like a dollar trial? Is it free for 30 days? I mean, or is it just kind of like you try all of it and see what, see what actually gets people to sign up?
KK (27:54):
Yeah, so great questions. I think, you know, th the sooner you can get real potential customers using it the better. So if you have to give it away for free or give it for free to your current customers, the better like you need real world, Guinea pigs using it, reporting bugs, giving you feedback. So you always want to think of them as like an advisory council. You’ve got your 12 target market users who are always going to have it for free and give you feedback in return for giving you feedback. Then the, the bigger question, it’s a business model thing. And so like with lead ex, when we launched four years ago, I had this vision, Rory that everybody loves leadership as much as I do. And if you look on Forbes, there’s millions of people following their leadership channel. If you look on LinkedIn, there’s tens of millions of people following the leadership, you know, channels.
KK (28:48):
I thought, oh, this is great books. As we know, you know, tons of people buying leadership books, let’s release a leadership app to consumers and let’s do a freemium model. So, Hey, go download this for free, play with it for a month, give us $20 a month like LinkedIn, and you’ll love it. And they don’t show up. They didn’t show up. And LinkedIn did not build LinkedIn initially on consumer subscriptions. So we pivoted and said, you know, who pays a lot of money for leadership development, big companies, you know, Roy, you think about how many people write keynote speaker checks, big keynote speaker checks. It’s not small businesses. It’s not individuals, it’s big companies for their annual event. Like they invest in leadership. They investing in culture and associations. And so we pivoted, and that was my Connexity’s. It’s like, why, why was I trying to think I was the B2C just because I was selling books and doing that stuff.
KK (29:45):
So when you’re selling to an enterprise customer, a big fortune 500 fortune, 1000 company that freemium and stuff, doesn’t, it goes away. Now it’s calling up a director of leadership development or wellness, or a head of VP of sales, you know, wherever you’re in is and saying, Hey, we got this solution. That’s going to transform your culture, your skills, et cetera. Why don’t we do a short pilot to see if it really is as good as I’m telling you it is. And then if you like it, you’re going to write a big check for a year’s worth of usage. And so I’m not against B to C for other people like that. It’s just, wasn’t my background and not my passion. My personal and now corporate mission is to spark the next 100 million leaders around the world. That’s a big number. I’m not going to do that with my books, my articles, my speeches. And I thought I could do it with B-to-C. And we have a free B to C version Rory, but that’s the real way to do it is to get companies, you know, that already have a hundred thousand employees around the world to give it their, to give it to large organizations.
RV (30:56):
Got it, got it. This has been so fascinating, Kevin, like, so it just I just, this is exactly what I hope for this unique blend of someone who really deeply understands personal branding and who really knows e-learning and who knows SAS and who knows entrepreneurship business valuations coming together. Because I mean, look, there’s, it’s no accident. Y’all wide brand builders group is a monthly coaching program. Like it’s, it’s no, it’s, it’s, it’s no secret why we do this. And coaching is something that we have a lot of experience doing and, you know, we’ve, we’ve received some of the benefits of, of some of what you’re talking about. Now, the app thing that that’s a, that’s a new venture, and I’m literally going to have to go have a conversation with AIJ and I’m going to be like, listen to this interview with Kevin, because now we need to hire 15 programmers. And we’re going to spend $10 million in the next couple years because Kevin said it was good idea. And and then if it doesn’t work ominous complainant on you, Kevin, where do you want people to go? If they want to connect with you? I mean, you, you write for, you written for so many online publications, you’ve got your books. Where should people go to connect with you?
KK (32:20):
Here’s what I’d say. If anyone is at all interested in leadership type personal development, just go to your favorite app store type lead X, Lea D X. You can download the free app and check it out. If you’re interested in my thoughts on personal branding, go to master your personal brand.com and you can download a tip. I run the lead X leadership podcast. We’ve got about 400 episodes. People can dive in and just email me [email protected]. And I’m happy to connect with anyone.
RV (32:53):
I love it. Well, we’ll link all that up in the show notes, man. Thanks for your wisdom. And just for sharing so openly about what you’re up to and what you’ve learned. I mean, just super duper valuable. I’ve always trusted you. I’ve always admired you and always just been grateful for our friendship. So keep going, man. We, we, we wish you the best and you know, I just, all I want is a ride in the private jet. That’s all I’m saying. I appreciate the opportunity, Rory. All right. See you, man.

Ep 194: How to Dominate Your Niche with Chester Elton

RV (00:02):
I’m so excited to introduce to a long time friend and mentor of mine named Chester Elton. We haven’t actually talked for years, but early in my career, I talked to Chester several times. AJ and I talked several times with jester and he’s been a huge encouragement to me. And he’s a great example. Him and his business partner, Adrian of, of owning and dominating a space. Specifically when it comes to workplace culture, these guys have created the space they’ve owned it. They have data from over a 1 million working adults. Chester is the co-founder of a company called fine mojo, which is a global assessment company. He is the author of multiple New York times and wall street journal best-selling books including all in the carrot principle, leading with gratitude, and then their newest one anxiety at work between all their books. Adrian Gosick is his writing partner’s name. Their books have been translated into 30 languages and have sold over one and a half million copies. Chester has been on the today show 60 minutes. He appears in major media all over the globe and it’s just a really, really amazing guy. And so you’ve got to learn, gotta hear some wisdom direct from the source. So gesture, thanks for being here, man.
CE (01:24):
Well, Rory listen, first and foremost. Thanks for inviting me. It’s always great to reconnect with old friends and, and thank you for those kind words. You know, I, I look at the work that you and AIJ have done the stories that you’ve shared your ups and downs. You know, you’re never down, you’re never out, you’re always taking the stairs, see what I did there. And and I, I just love your spirit and the way AJ building your family and building your career. So a delight to be here with you today. Yeah.
RV (01:52):
You know, this is this is a funny fact that people probably don’t know, but one of the most influential ways you’ve been most influential in our life is you told us directly, we need to start making children. And that conversation stuck with us. So emphatic, like in our mind, because you were like, you have to have kids, you’re going to love it. It’s great. The world needs more children from people like you guys and just you know, so thank you for that. Cause I think last time we talked, I don’t think I had kids. You,
CE (02:25):
You did not. So I’m so glad that you took my advice. You know, it is interesting and it’s so easy to get caught up in, you know, what you’re doing and you and AJ, I love what you do. There’s nothing wrong with that. That sometimes you put aside some of the things that really make life rich and important than meaningful, and certainly that has to do with raising a family. And, and I know you love being the dad, you got two kids now, you guys are doing your part so good for you.
RV (02:52):
Yeah, well, we’re doing it. And you know nowadays we’re trying to help people build and monetize personal brand, which of course, you know, met, made for an obvious conversation with you. I know that anxiety at work, you said is your 14th book. And you know, one of the things that we’re always trying to help people do is figure out their uniqueness and find a space that they can own. And I feel like you and Adrian have always been so consistent and you know, owning the culture space, but also data. Like when I think of you, another part of your brand that really speaks to me is just like research and, and science and and the data component of it. I wanted to get your thoughts on how do you, how do you approach a research project? Like for the average person who isn’t, you know, you’ve got this long background in researcher and now you have your own assessment company. Like how do you set about you know, just kind of putting your mind around the idea of conducting research and what counts as research and, you know, how do you just, you know, think about it.
CE (03:59):
Yeah. A great question. You know, we early on figured out that the data gives you all kinds of credibility, right? And so Willis towers, Watson graciously gave us access to their database and international database on employee engagement. And that’s a very rich area to mine. As you recall, we started our, our writing careers around recognition in the workplace. We wrote, you know, the character principle and, and a carrot a day. And the daily, you can have guys for a long, a long time. Yeah, absolutely. In fact, if you, if you Google carrot guys, we, we, we pop up. And so recognition was the space where we really, you know, cut our teeth and then it became very obvious to us that it wasn’t the recognition space that we were really in. It was really the culture space because we never met a great leader, a great team or a great culture that didn’t celebrate their successes.
CE (04:58):
And so we transitioned from being, you know strictly recognition to being culture and our landmark book. There was the all in how the best managers create a culture of belief that drives big results. And that really gave us a bigger canvas to paint on. And that’s where we started getting recognized, recognizes, you know, as leadership gurus and culture gurus with, with with the global gurus list actually, and HR lists and, and on and on because of the research, it wasn’t a feeling. It wasn’t like, oh, this looks or sounds right. It was rock solid data. And when your database gets, you know, over a million, which is way more than you need as you well know it gives you that credibility. Now, what we also wanted to do was say, okay, well, what proprietary you know, insights can we have?
CE (05:49):
And so we developed our own assessment called the motivators assessment. If you’ve taken like strength finders, that’s what you’re good at, or Myers-Briggs, that’s who you are. The motivators assessment, we felt sort of filled in the gap between who I am, what I’m good at and tell me what I’m passionate about. And that’s that Venn diagram that if I know who I am, I know what my strengths are. And I can marry that with my passions. Boy, that’s productivity, that’s joy coming to work and all the things associated with it. So that gave us some proprietary insights. And then as we, as we started to publish more and more around teams and leadership leading with gratitude was a book. Our timing was impeccable, Roy, our, we, we launched that book in, in, in March of 2000. We bought every available front of store space at airports because that’s where people buy business books.
CE (06:42):
We even said, if you buy this book, we’ll give you a pair of gratitude socks, because this book will knock your socks off. And literally two weeks later you couldn’t find, you know, a mouse in an airport. And while this is in March of 2020. Yes. And so, and yet, and yet the timing was also good because it was a time where people needed to step back and say, I know what I’m losing. What am I grateful for? And it gave us a great opportunity to get out there with leaders and cultures and saying, yes, I understand that you can’t do a lot of the things that you used to do before. I understand that life is more difficult in homeschooling and so on. And yet in all of this, what are we grateful for? So it gave us a wonderful opportunity to take a deep dive into an emotional connection, to gratitude and leading with gratitude.
CE (07:31):
And we have some wonderful stories and partners, well, our publisher at the time and still is our publisher Harper business. Adrian and his son had been working on a father, son project around anxiety. Anthony constant. His son had suffered from severe anxiety since a little kid. One of my sons also at that happened and took the project to Harper business. And they said, well, this isn’t, you know, you have no credibility in the self-help section. This is a business book. People are suffering from anxiety at work, like never before. So you wouldn’t normally publish a book every year. A book is a big project. Well with COVID not traveling, not speaking, we had the time we cranked it out very quickly. And this is by far Rory our most important book. Our favorite book is leading with gratitude. Our most important book is anxiety at work because it is so mission-driven because it fits neatly under that umbrella of culture. You can’t have a high-performance culture. You can’t be a high-performing person if you’re suffering from severe anxiety. So the two married up so nicely, and we’ve, we’ve, we’ve had a lot of fun and a lot of success. So did you start
RV (08:41):
In assess, did you do how did you build, did you build assessment around the anxiety work to create, like, or did you pull it out of the motivators assessment? Is that where you pulled the data out of
CE (08:54):
Excellent question and wonderful insights? You’ve clearly asked a lot of questions before Rory you’re, you’re good at this. But what happened is with the database and we’ve had over a hundred thousand people take the motivators assessment is we were able to parse out generational differences. What were the generational differences in motivation? And then as we looked at the really current and timely research around who is suffering the most from anxiety at work, it was obvious that for, and I’ll give you some numbers just really quick in, in 2018, about 18% of employees referenced some kind of severe anxiety in the workplace. So one in five, basically by 2020, the middle of 2020 that had jumped to 30% overall. When you look though at millennials and gen Z, you know, early twenties to early thirties, it was over 40%. It was 42%.
CE (09:50):
On top of that, you took specifically millennials and gen Z 75% said that they had left a job recently due to a mental health episode. So really the number one issue in the workplace generationally, we were able to see those insights through our motivators assessments about what matters to you. It’s it’s family it’s impact. It’s learning coupled with outside data that said, this group suffers more than any other. And it was really remarkable confluence of, of data stories, interviews, and then tools to deal with, how do I reduce my anxiety in the workplace?
RV (10:29):
Interesting. How did you build the motivators assessment? Like what, what’s the, what did you do? I mean, obviously you go, Hey, let’s build our own assessment. You kind of figure out this space, you go, Hey, there’s a test that does this. There’s a test that does this. We would like to have a test that does this. And then what do you do after that?
CE (10:48):
Well, you go find people that build amazing assessments. And that’s what we did. We, we contacted gene graves and Travis Bradberry who produced the emotional intelligence 2.0 assessment. And you’ll love the conversation. And this is, you know, building your personal brand, right? When you’re building your personal brand, what is your niche? Where it can, as you say, where can you dominate? And then what makes you different than everybody else? And of course, having proprietary data does that in a brilliant way. And so you’ll love the conversation though. So we called up Jane and Travis and we said, Hey, we’ve got this idea. And you know, it’d be identifying people’s passions. It’s, you know what motivates me, put your passions to work. We self-published the book around that and all the training and so on it. And they said, yeah, yeah. So we wait two or three conversations and it was not an inexpensive proposition.
CE (11:39):
I mean, if you want to do it well and have a third-party vetted and have it be a valid assessment, you’ve it takes time. It, and you want experts in of course, experts are expensive. So they, it came down to this and you’ll love this Rory because you know, it really does come down to personal relationships and everything you do, right. They said, okay, well, we have three criteria as to whether it will take a project on. And they are, these said, first is, is it interesting work for us? So think about that. They said, we get approached all the time to do stuff like this. So first and foremost, will it be challenging? And will it be interesting for us to create this assessment? And the answer to that is yes. Secondly, is we have to ask the question, will it help people like, will it be helpful?
CE (12:26):
Well, it helped change the world to make it a little better place. And as we think about what you want to do and how we could put this together, the answer to that question is, yes, the answer, the third question is by far the most important, and it’s this, do we like you because you’re going to spend a lot of time together. Right? And if we don’t like you, it just will not be worth it. So luckily they check the third box as well. And it took us about a year and a half to develop it. We had a third-party vetted, did all kinds of alpha and beta testing. And yeah. Now we’ve got this wonderful assessment that gives us incredible insights, generationally industry gender and so on.
RV (13:07):
I love that. I mean, I think that it, thank you for sharing that because it’s really helpful to go, you know, for me to sit down and create an assessment that passes all the likes, statistical validity and probabilities and margin of error and all that is like super intimidating, but to go, oh, like anything, you pay some money, you hire, you hire the person and you go out and you get it. You make an investment and you get it done. And then you have this proprietary proprietary thing. So I, I love that. And I love what you’re saying about how proprietary proprietary data helps you dominate. So you create this assessment, you’re measuring a bunch of people are taking it. You’re drawing insights from that too. You’re drawing insights from that to create the books. How do you actually sell the books once you have them? Because it’s like, I feel like everyone that talks about books, it’s really about how to get the book, deal, how to come up with the idea, how to write the book, how to publish the book, but nobody ever talks about like, what do you actually do that sells books? Like that gets a lot of people to buy. I mean, you sold one and a half million books. Like how do you do that? Yeah.
CE (14:22):
Yeah. Yeah. I think we’re actually about 1.7 these days. I’ll tell you, you say, how do you sell a million books? You sell them one at a time. You really do. It’s really interesting, you know, back to the personal brand, then we’ll circle back to how do you sell books? It’s really interesting. Like you say, you know, you just don’t go create an assessment by yourself. You, you find experts. You know, you live in Nashville. I live in Jersey, in Jersey. There’s a that look, I know a guy who knows a guy, right? You get your network. I know a guy who knows a guy who can, can do that for you. You know what I’m saying? And so you do your surround yourself with really good and really smart people. It’s the same thing in publishing, you know given that we’ve written 14 books now, we’ve, we’ve made every mistake humanly possible, and we’ve actually helped about a dozen people get published.
CE (15:13):
And so you do your surround yourself with great people. I’ll tell you a really interesting story about leading with gratitude. We always hire a personal editor to edit our books. As, as you know, we put the concept together, we’d go to the publishers. They buy the idea. They buy the marketing plan. Not only do they need to love the concept, they need to love, how are you going to go to market? In other words, they can print it. They can get you a distribution. They’ve got a PR team that can help you, you know, get on the various podcast and get on various shows. And so it’s really up to you as the authors to sell the books. And so what does your network look like? So, you know, we’ve got 625,000 followers on LinkedIn. We’ve got an internal newsletter where we have just under a hundred thousand subscribers within LinkedIn.
CE (15:58):
We write business books. So we place our bet on LinkedIn. If you’re a different kind of author, you might play place your bet on Instagram or Facebook or whatever the point is is that, you know, find your community, build that brand in the community, build your reputation and then build your followership so that when you put stuff out, people will view it. It’s, it’s so interesting that when you build your brand first off, and we did this with an ad agency in New York years and years ago, when we were writing all our books with, with carrots in the title said, what is your noble cause? You know, what is it that really is going to bring people to you? Is it, you know, breast cancer awareness, right? Is it autism? What is it? And for ours was creating great, you know, great cultures where people were excited to come to work, where they believed what they did mattered.
CE (16:50):
They made a difference. And when they made a difference, it was noticed and celebrated. It was that simple. And it was great. That’s a noble cause. Then the second piece is, are you, are you the spokesperson or the spokes in our case, there’s two of us. And are you likable and never underestimate likable? You know, are you really emotionally connected to your cause? Do people want to hear from you? Do they trust you? Do they like you? And so we were able to check that box, you know, Andrea and I both, you know, very passionate about what we do. We’re also passionate about taking what you learned in the workplace, into your personal lives, to your families, making families stronger and community stronger. So this that check the box. The third one was really interesting. They said, do you have a symbol that people can rally around?
CE (17:40):
And you think about, you know, breast cancer awareness, it’s the pink ribbon. And then how that has manifested itself, when you can get the world’s toughest athletes, NFL football players wearing pink cleats, you’ve arrived. Right? And it was very identifiable. And so for us, it was the symbol of the carrot, which we continue to use in our work. And so on. It’s very simple. The carrot is that is the positive reward for, for all your hard work. We even created a little mascot. And that was the fourth thing. Do you have a mascot? A nice to have, not a must have. And so we have Garrett the carrot. So wherever we go and we engage people, we, we, we, we give them a carrot or, or a small reward. Well, as you build that brand and you build that network and that followership, then it becomes easier for you to say.
CE (18:26):
And by the way, if you understand the data, if you listen to the stories, which are the case studies, that data gives you credibility, the stories are what people remember. Then here are the tools and you find the tools in our books. So you’re going to want to buy the book. So, you know, you, you build your followership with your podcast, with your newsletter, with your followership on whatever platform makes sense. You start making lists, you get known as an authority in your space. You build that marketing machine and it makes it easier to sell books. It’s a lot of work because selling books, as you know, that’s hard work.
RV (19:04):
And is the, is the assessment, how does the do people, is the assessment free? Does it come with the book? Is it cause like some of them you have to buy the book and it comes with the assessment is, is like how do you do it?
CE (19:16):
Yeah, we’ve done all of the above. A very, we first published the book called what motivates me, put your passions to work in the code was in the book very much like StrengthFinders and emotional intelligence, 2.0 later, we actually pulled the book from the market because it was, it was cannibalizing our training somewhat. And then it was simply online. It’s a digital version. It’s very, very scalable. We had the the culture works, which was our training company. We’ve now moved to strictly a data company, which is fine mojo. And there is a freemium model. So you can go on and you can take the assessment and we’ll give you a part of the data. If you want the whole report, you pay a small fee to get that. And then the work that we’ve really discovered is very helpful with the motivators assessment is in building strong teams as a team leader.
CE (20:03):
I understand my motivators. Then I understand the individual motivators. If each person on my team and each team member understands their motivators as well. Now, it becomes really interesting when you start to bleed into other platforms and distribution models, we’re working on a very interesting platform right now on can we tie a platform where leaders can come in, adjust their behaviors, do very specific things, log that online, to reduce anxiety, to build stronger teams. And we’re hoping to launch that at the end of end of July. Well, that’s where you’re making a huge difference. And that’s where you’re using your data and your insights to then change behaviors for the better to create better workplaces, stronger teams, better leaders. Yeah. I love
RV (20:52):
That. So I want to ask you a little deep dive about LinkedIn, because you guys do dominate. I mean, you dominate on LinkedIn which you know, is really smart for what you’re saying. It’s like, this is where my audience is and you know, and I feel like, you know, you’re more there like then on Instagram, right? So it’s like, oh, sure. Yeah. You know, you go follow what you’re doing on LinkedIn. And you’re like, oh my gosh, these people are celebrities on Instagram. Not as much your audience, isn’t there to the same extent. So how do you, how have you done that on LinkedIn? Like, I’m, I’m curious specifically about what has worked well for you on LinkedIn.
CE (21:31):
Well, yeah. And, you know, cause you grew up in sales and I grew up in sales. You have to place your bed. You know, if you’re trying to be too many things to too many people, you end up being nothing to everybody. Right. And so it became very clear for us that, you know, LinkedIn was the place where business people go and we write business books. So it was a bit of a no brainer early on in LinkedIn. Again, this is, you know, surrounding yourself with really good people. So I had a very, a very good friend who worked at LinkedIn here in New York. And he literally, we go to the same church and he came up to him and he said, you know, I love your books. I love all the carrots stuff and everything. He says, you know, I’m at LinkedIn, they’re starting an influencers program and you should be an influencer.
CE (22:11):
So we got in very early, you know, when there were only a few hundred, then it went to be, you know, over a thousand and then they paired it back. Which was really interesting if you weren’t, if you weren’t using your LinkedIn influencer platform over a certain period of time, they, they pulled it. Which makes sense. You know, if you’re not, if you’re not going to use it, why bother? Why bother? And that was a huge break for us. Now you have to be invited to be an influencer. You can make yourself aware it’s an invitation. So again, if, if you say, oh great, I for example, I had an author contact and she said, well, I would love to be an influencer. Can you introduce me? I said, yes, I can understand. It’s an invitation. And as I look at your profile, you have 1500, or maybe she has 2,500 followers.
CE (22:59):
I go, that’s not influencer status. You know, you’re not going to become an influencer. If you have 1500 followers, you know, half a million is probably, well, probably 250,000, but you get, the idea is you have to have a certain amount of gravitas. And then that influencer program was a huge boon to us because as they would start to pilot new programs, they would go to their influencers. First, when they started to do newsletters, they said, we want you to do a newsletter. Is it crate? What is that? How do you do that? Right. So they’ve coached you through it. And they said, the great thing about a newsletter is when you post something, it goes to your followers, right? And to a fraction of your followers, really a newsletter goes to your followers inbox because they subscribed to it. They asked for it. And we started with a newsletter once a month.
CE (23:51):
And I think we ended up, you know, early on with like 1500 subscribers. And then every month we would publish, they would grow. And then they suggested that we go to twice a month. I think once a week is too much. I mean, I, I want to hear from my wife at least every week, but for me, you know, every week. And so we went to twice a week, well, we just passed the year benchmarks. So we had what we went to twice a week and that we have like 18 newsletters. We’re just under a hundred thousand subscribers where our message goes right to their inbox. They encouraged us to do a podcast, which we do with anxiety at work, wonderful guests. They said, we’re doing a LinkedIn live. We’d like to do a LinkedIn live show. We did, we have a LinkedIn live show every Thursday on leading with gratitude that then we turn into a podcast.
CE (24:42):
And so, you know, it’s, it’s layer upon layer upon layer as you build it up. So we’ve got our followership, we’ve got our newsletter, we’ve got our LinkedIn live show. We’ve got our podcasts. I started a really just goofy thing where when COVID started, I just post a photograph every day of something I’m grateful for. And it’s amazing, you know, you get 30,000 hits on that and depending what it is, and, and I’m probably like you I’ll post something and it’ll, it’ll go phenomenally well and go, well, what was it about that that made it great. And I can never figure it out. You know, I’ll write this article for our newsletter. And I think that is genius. Like Cheshire, you know, you’re gonna love it. You know, there was a viral for sure, there’s a Pulitzer. There’s gonna probably be a movie deal, you know?
CE (25:30):
And, and, and nobody, and it doesn’t resonate. And then you’ll, you’ll do something. I’ll take you 10 minutes to write and you put it and people go nuts. So the, the point that I’m making there is so much of it is trial and error. The thing is to really be consistent. So, I mean, every day I’m posting some little photograph every two weeks, we’ve got a newsletter every week. We’ve got a LinkedIn live show every week we’re dropping on our podcast. And, and that’s what you get to do a lot of places. Now, as my friend from Texas would say, it’s a long road to a small house, circling back to how do you sell books? Often it takes four to five hits for somebody to say, yeah, I’ll buy that book unless it’s your friend that says, you know what, Roy, you got to buy this book and say, great, I’ll buy. Other than that, you know, they’ve got to hear about it on a podcast. They see it posted in the newsletter. You’re doing an interview on another podcast. You’re getting, you know, on and on. It’s about four or five hits. That’s why you’ve gotta be in so many places. And that’s why, what you put out has to be quality work again, why we hire internal editors to make sure that not only are we, are we on message, the product that we’re putting out is world-class.
RV (26:43):
Hmm. Gosh, that’s so good. It’s such a good, such a good reminder of, of just the reality of, of, of what it takes. Thank you for this gesture. Where do you want people to go if to learn about you guys and your work clearly you’re on LinkedIn.
CE (27:01):
That part’s easy. Yeah. you know, LinkedIn is, is where you can find us all over the place it goes to get on.com is our website with our latest podcast, wherever you get your podcasts, anxiety at work, I highly recommend it. You know, the thing, the reason we’re so passionate about this particular subject and why I really encourage people to go there is that only one in 10 employees feel comfortable talking about anxiety to their bosses. It’s the number one issue in the workplace. And if you can’t talk about it, you can’t solve it. Do you know what I mean? We’ve got to create safer places. So I really would recommend that you listen to the podcast. So many leaders, many of them entrepreneurs who you would never think of had a bad day in their lives have suffered from severe anxiety. And by them sharing their stories, it makes it safe for you to share your story and to build not just a better place to work, but to build a better life. So LinkedIn gods to can hilton.com our podcast, sign up for our LinkedIn newsletter. It’s all real positive stuff and listen to Rory Vaden and whatever he does or whatever he says, just do it because he’s a great advocate for not just building better brands, but building better lives and always a pleasure to be with
RV (28:16):
You, right? Oh, I’ll, I’ll always a pleasure. My, my brother is good to see you and we’ll be watching closely and we wish you the best. Thanks so much. Take care and be well.

Ep 189: How Entrepreneurs Should Use Their Personal Brand to Launch Their Startup with Claire Diaz Ortiz | Recap Episode

RV (00:02):

Welcome back to the influential personal brand podcast recap edition. Today, I am joined by my cohost of my wife of amazing wonder and beauty and brilliance, AJ Vaden. We’re talking about I think a topic that’s super, super relevant to things that AJ is interested in as a true entrepreneur herself. How do entrepreneurs use their personal brand to launch their startup and the interview that we did with Claire Diaz, Ortiz, who’s a long time Silicon valley influencer, I would say. And, you know anyway, fascinating AJ. And I we met her. Do you remember what was that? What was the event we were at that we met her?

AJV (00:42):

I think it was at that leadership event that we had gone to read like Jesus.

RV (00:49):

So it was Ken Blanchard’s. Yeah, it was a Ken Blanchard.

AJV (00:52):

We’d like Jesus event. I’m recalling correctly. I could have made that up, but that’s okay.

RV (00:57):

Yeah. Yep. Yeah. That’s right. So so anyways, just to dive into it, you know, I think this interview was interesting because I think it was more focused towards kind of the traditional entrepreneur than more of like the, you know, kind of modern influencer

AJV (01:15):

Or business owner, CEO, executives, anyone in that business category.

RV (01:20):

So maybe not your kind of classic author, speaker, coach person, but more of like a, a leader of a business and asking the question, like, why does it matter to have a personal brand? You know,

AJV (01:33):

If you’re not, yeah.

RV (01:35):

Like if you’re not selling a video course or a coaching program, then does this, does this all still matter? And you know, w the first point takeaway for me was where she was talking about how one of the things that she does now is she’s an investor and she gets to go to these investor meetings and they see pitches and yada yada, and she said, well, look, no matter how you think about it as an entrepreneur, as the founder of anything, it’s your job to share the story of your thing with the world, whether it’s a nonprofit, or it’s a whatever, a sports team or a, or a, a SAS company or a widget, it’s the founder’s job to figure out how to share the story with the world. And, and there’s only a couple of ways to do that, right? It’s like either you have a, you build a sales team and they make a bunch of cold calls and they go tell everybody about it. Or you have a huge advertising budget and you spend a bunch of money so that you tell people about it, or you do something more organic, which is basically through personal branding and the, and the things that we talk about. And I guess that was a big light bulb for me to go, gosh, so much of what we teach at brand builders group directly applies to the traditional entrepreneur, just because of that, because of that one point alone. And it wasn’t, it didn’t stick out in my mind so much until she said that, no,

AJV (02:59):

That’s, that’s really good. My first point was although there are great PR people at the end of the day, it’s really up to you. I think there’s so many things in life that we want to outsource to someone else. It’s, you know, there’s oh, I’m drawing a blank on Harry said this Kiyosaki, rich dad, poor dad. Talking about how there is, there’s no such thing as a New York times, best writing author. It is a New York times best selling author. And, you know, it’s so many people throughout our community at brain builders group, this question of, or just assumption, I’ve got a question. It’s an assumption that the publisher sells your books. No, they do not. They publish books. They do not sell books. And, you know, I think there’s so many things where it’s like, well, who’s going to get the story out there and who’s going to get it on TV and who’s going to get on it.

AJV (04:01):

Well, most of the time, it’s you, that doesn’t mean you won’t have help and assistance, but that’s your job, right? It’s like, you want people to learn about your company, your products or services, then go and tell them. And that’s what I love about personal branding is, and I think this is in the wise words and one of our good friends, Jay Baer, it’s like, you have the ability to be your own media company. So go and do it. Don’t rely on other people go be your own media person, right? You have the ability to do that. Like as individuals, we are our own media companies, and I was sharing this with Rory over the weekend. And I don’t know all the details. I didn’t read the whole story. I’m a headline reader in the news. So I don’t know all the details. I know just enough to be dangerous.

AJV (04:50):

Please don’t pass out. This was fascinating. And very much to this point where I saw that the young individual who films, the murder of George Floyd recently was awarded a Pulitzer for investigative journalism. I, this was a young teenager who had the thought, maybe they weren’t a teen or young adult who had the thought of something is going on here. I’m going to film it and look at what it has created across America and the world like that. You are your own media person. Like you are your own media company. Like you have that ability. Now. It’s like, there’s been entire movements. So there’s been black lives matter. But if you years ago, there was the me too movement that all started by people saying, I’m going to take stand. I’m going to share my voice. I’m going to do it in my own way, because I can be my own media company with the power of social media, plenty of bad things about social media, but there’s equal good things too. And I think as, as business people, as entrepreneurs and executives, CEOs, why don’t you think you have the same power to do that? You want people to learn about your products and your company’s mission and your services and how you’re different. Well, get yourself out there and tell people about it. But at the end of the day, it’s a great PR is up to you. Not some PR company.

RV (06:11):

No. Wow. Yeah. That’s that is, that is empowering and challenging at the same time. It was on that note, on that note about PR this was one, my second takeaway was, was Claire said, basically she was talking about reframe PR as moment making as like you know, think of it less as like, oh, there’s a press release of something we’re doing. And more of like, how do you create this special moment for people? And, you know, it made me, it reminded me of a couple of things where like Taylor swift would send, you know, personal video messages or show up to certain people’s birthday parties. You know, that would request and she’d get thousands. But occasionally she would show up at one because it was like, it was this huge moment where everyone couldn’t believe it. And it went viral like, oh my gosh, Taylor swift is at my birthday party.

RV (07:05):

And that’s so genius. And it’s so cool. Like it’s both cool and genius in terms of its effectiveness. And, you know, I I remember lewis saying this when we interviewed him for the influential personal brand summit that by the way, there, there’s a link to that on our website. If you, if you go to brand builders, group.com and then I think it’s resources, there’s a, you know, you can get all these video interviews that we did. And, and on that specific interview, I remember lewis saying that he tries to organize this whole business around one or two big moments every year. And so it’s like they really have like one or two really big things that they do. That’s like gonna push them to the next level. And so just thinking of PR as moment making for your customers versus like press releases about, you know, stuff about you. That was, that was good. I thought that, and

AJV (08:02):

That’s a game changer and this was technically my third point, but I’ll consider this my second point since we’re on the subject of it, because I thought the same thing I thought, you know, reframing PR is moment making versus some announcement or some press release, which quite honestly is tired and old. And really who cares? No offense to all of us doing it. We, we asked, included like Rory and I had a conversation less than two weeks ago about putting some press releases out about our new study and going through this. It’s like, well, that is so boring. Like who wants to read a press release about something that some company is doing that may or may not have any implications to them or their business. And instead it’s like, no, how do we create a moment of this? And here’s the thing that I loved about this. This is what I had really highlighted underneath. This is that you have to come up with a long-term of interesting, wow.

AJV (09:00):

Is the power of moment making it’s. What are you doing? That is interesting. That’s like, you’ve got to have a longterm strategy of interesting, because that is where the moments are made. It’s in the interesting, it’s in the unique it’s in the out of the ordinary. So what kind of strategy do you have as an entrepreneur business owner, executive CEO to go? What are the interesting moments? The interesting things that we’re doing that would be newsworthy or attention grabbing, because that is what we draw our attention to. We all know that media is sensationalized. Why? Because we, they know it works. Like we want to hear the things that are out of the ordinary that are uncommon, that are, you know, wildly unbelievable, good or bad, unfortunately. It’s totally sensationalized because they know that’s what grabs people’s attention. So what are you doing? What is your strategy of being interesting? I love that. I thought that was brilliant.

RV (10:01):

That’s a great one. That’s a great one. I bolded and underlined that [inaudible] quote for the, for the, for the ages. so my third takeaway was just about social media. She said, Claire said this, I think pretty much directly. She said with every passing year, there is more and more pressure to have some type of online presence. That’s true. It’s not the fad thing. Like we’re so far past that it’s just more and more and more. And so now it’s like, you got to get on the, you gotta get on board with this ship. Like it’s sailed, you’re behind. You need to catch up this. Isn’t like, oh, I, you know, it was hot for awhile. This is phew. This is how people do do business. And so stop asking, do I need social media and start asking, how do I use it to grow our business?

RV (10:50):

And I think there’s a lot of people still reluctant to embrace it, you know, and it’s unfamiliar. And it’s, you know, sometimes in some ways it’s like annoying. I have to deal with this thing, but it’s like, there’s a lot of parts of business that are annoying and difficult and that you have to learn. And, you know, most of us don’t know about taxes and financial statements and legal stuff and corporate entity structure and hiring like HR policies. Like there’s a lot of parts with a business that are necessary that, you know, you just have to embrace. And I think this is one of them and just going, okay, how do we use it? How do we use it to grow our business and coupling it with what you just said, AIG, about what is our longterm strategy to be interesting is, is, is super, super powerful and important. So I thought that was simple, but it was a, it was a takeaway for me.

AJV (11:38):

Yes. I agree. My third point is actually also about social media, but a completely different point. This is something Claire said in the interview, but I kind of latched on to because I find it to be true with myself. And I figured if it’s true with me, it may be true with some of you listening. And so she said, everyone needs to be on social media, but you do not need to be everywhere. You do not have to be on every single platform and posting content every single place in order to have a presence. And she said there are three things that you need to think about. This is directly pulled from the interview. This is directly from Claire, not AGA one. I think about what is your story and what are you trying to share to focus on engaging with the audience you already have. That’s more important than trying to get new audience members.

RV (12:27):

So good, good way.

AJV (12:29):

More time, sharing value and providing value to the ones you have because by natural, the natural by-product of things is you’ll get more, but focus on that. And then to spend some focus on outreach, right? That’s engagement, engage with the audience that you have, right? Don’t just post a bunch of things and then disappear into the wild, beyond her. You have to post and then engage you. This is building relationships, right? This is nurturing your audience. It’s just in a new way. And one of the things that I thought about is like, at a so often, you know, it’s like even we, we teach this at frame builder script, and I most definitely believe in it. And it’s the, you know, it’s like, how do we repurpose content in a variety of places, but at the same time it’s going to, what is my place?

AJV (13:11):

Where are my people? Where is my audience? And what does that audience want on each platform? Because I truly have seen in my own social media presence, my LinkedIn, I have the largest following on LinkedIn, right. That’s where I spent most of my previous life. And it’s where most of my contacts are in terms of engagement and content. It’s a more executive entrepreneur community. That’s, that’s my group, that’s my people. Right. and I, I have so much more success when I post business content, personal branding, content on LinkedIn. I can post the exact same thing on LinkedIn and get 10 times the likes engagement and shares than if I posted it on Facebook or Instagram. Here’s, what’s fascinating. I post a picture of me and my kids on Instagram. It will get 100 times more engagement than any other thing I post that week.

AJV (14:03):

Right. It’s like I have different platforms for different needs, right? So I have really committed that. You know, it’s like all of my business content, my strategy, my personal brand, my company, stuff that is going for LinkedIn. And I’m just going to stop posting it on Instagram because it’s not what they want for me on Instagram. Instagram is they want to know about me and my family and my life, my travels, my kids, they want personal connection and personal engagement. That’s not the case for every individual. That’s just my I’m just giving you an example. And quite honestly, I will be very truthful. I don’t ever get on Facebook. Everything is just automatically shared from Instagram. I cannot tell you the last time I logged into Facebook. So I don’t really know what they want because I’m not paying, that’s not my platform. And I think it’s okay to say no, I’ve got my platforms of choice.

AJV (14:48):

And that is where I’m going to spend my time. I think that’s okay. And then you got to ask yourself, what did they want to hear about on this platform? What audience and I trying to reach here. And it’s not that you can’t repurpose and reshare content. You can, but it’s gotta be with intention, but then you also have to pay attention to what the analytics actually show you of knowing, well, what is your platform? Because by natural it’s like, I would just assume Instagram is where I spend most of my time. So that’s what, and it’s like, well, no, not when it comes to business content, that is not my platform. That is a platform for my personal life. And I have a very business audience for my LinkedIn. And I think just knowing that and just going, I need to be on it, but I do not have to be everywhere.

AJV (15:28):

And I don’t have to be doing everything everywhere, which makes it feel almost a manageable. So it’s just like taking those bite sized chunks and going, this is this platform and this is what I’m going to do there. This is the other platform. And here’s what I’m going to do here. And it just it’s maneuvering what really works for you and what you enjoy doing. Because if you don’t enjoy doing it, you’ll never do it. So you have to enjoy it and then you need it to be reciprocated. Right? You want people to find value in it because it makes you want to do more. So I think just latching onto that, it’s like, yes, you need to be on it. No, you don’t need to be on all of them.

RV (16:05):

Yeah. Yeah. That’s good. That’s a good takeaway. Y’all and I liked what you said there about making sure you enjoy it. Cause if you enjoy it, you’ll show up, you’ll engage. You’ll you’ll naturally do all the things you need to do to be successful. If you don’t enjoy it, it’s going to constantly be like this fight and resistance to, to actually do it. And then it doesn’t. Yeah. It’s a burden that doesn’t actually work out. So well go, go check out the interview. Claire is just super influential, very unique perspective, unique blend of this expertise in entrepreneurship and investing in tech and startups as well as building a very huge and successful personal brand herself and also being one of the early people at Twitter. Very unique perspective, very, very sharp woman agent. I both met her personally. So, you know, she’s got our, got our, our endorsement and hope you enjoy it and keep coming back. We’re grateful for you. We’ll see you next time on the influential personal brand. Bye.

Ep 188: How Entrepreneurs Should Use Their Personal Brand to Launch Their Startup with Claire Diaz Ortiz

RV (00:08):
Hey, brand builder, Rory Vaden here. Thank you so much for taking the time to check out this interview as always, it’s our honor to provide it to you for free and wanted to let you know there’s no big sales pitch or anything coming at the end. However, if you are someone who is looking to build and monetize your personal brand, we would love to talk to you and get to know you a little bit and hear about some of your dreams and visions and share with you a little bit about what we’re up to see if we might be a fit. So if you’re interested in a free strategy call with someone from our team, we would love to hear from you. You can do that at brand builders, group.com/pod call brand builders, group.com/pod call. We hope to talk to you soon.
RV (00:55):
You know, sometimes you have these friends where you’re like, gosh, they’re such a slacker, but I like them anyways. And Claire is somebody who has a bachelor’s and a master’s from Stanford. She has an MBA from Oxford. She was an early employee at Twitter. She got the Pope on Twitter, according to wired magazine. And she’s the author of nine, nine books that have been translated into 10 languages. And, you know, even though she’s kind of a slacker like that, I thought, well, gosh, we should have my good dear friend, Claire Diaz Ortiz on the show. Obviously I am being facetious dramatically. She is one of the most intelligent people that I know. And one of her books she wrote was called one minute mentoring, who she wrote with her mentor, the legendary Ken Blanchard, who we went to a conference and that’s how her and I really connected.
RV (01:53):
We’ve known each other through Donald and Betsy Miller for awhile, but AIJ and I went to this lead, like Jesus event that Ken Blanchard put on, which was amazing. And Claire was there and that’s when we really became friends. And she’s just incredible. And I think what’s really cool. So she lives in Argentina and right now for the last couple of years, she’s really been involved with investing. Okay. So she is an angel investor. She’s a VC. And specifically, recently she’s been working on you know, doing investing down in Latin America for female entrepreneurs and just, you know, anyways, she’s, she’s all things entrepreneurial and investor backed companies, and we just thought it would be cool to have her perspective on how to use your personal brand to launch your startup and to get funding. And for those of you that listen, that are true entrepreneurs, but even if not she’s got a new book called social media success for every brand, which will apply to everybody. So she’s just someone we got to learn from, and here she is welcome to the stage. Claire Diaz, Ortiz. It
CDO (03:00):
Is so good to be here. We were just trying to figure out what year we were out in Palm desert at that event must have been four years ago or something like that. I don’t know. I’m trying to remember how many children I had at the time. It’s hard to keep it back. You’re in the same scenario, right? You had a baby at that event, right? Yeah,
RV (03:19):
That’s right. That baby is now four. So I think it was okay. It was like three, three, like three and a half years
CDO (03:25):
Ago. And
RV (03:27):
Dina Dwyer Owens was there. She’s another sweet dear friend. I don’t know if you know her, but that’s she was who invited us to that event. And yeah, it’s like pre COVID pre-baby. I mean, that’s how you keep track of things when you get, you know, our state just by, by children. But so anyway, so you’ve been, I mean, you grew up in Silicon valley, you kind of grew up in that world, both like literally lived there, but also at Twitter and, and that, and I think it’s fascinating that, you know, I know a lot of people, I know a lot of people kind of that are like from the entrepreneurial VC angel investing world. And I know a lot of people who are from like the social media, personal branding world, but I know very few people who have straps, both of those worlds.
RV (04:15):
And what, what are some of the things is that you’re seeing Claire in terms of how, how are quote unquote real life entrepreneurs using personal branding and, and, and how should they be thinking about their personal brand when it comes to, you know, and I’m, I’m not talking about coaches and speakers and authors and consultants per se. Although I know you understand that world because that is also you and you, you hang in that world a bit, but specifically for our listeners who have a business that isn’t so much based on their personality, what are the things they should be thinking about and doing and using you know, and maybe even just you as an investor where you go, these are things that capture our attention in terms of the way the founder presents online or with social or et cetera, et cetera. And I just, I’m just honestly fascinated to hear your opinion on this,
CDO (05:20):
Right? So I think one of the sort of big things we need to sort of address when we think about kind of the answer to this big thorny question is just the fact that personal branding is basically completely different than it was 30 years ago, right? It’s no longer about you writing a typing and a typewriter, a press release, finding a PR person to send it out, and then watching that person try to get you in paper magazines, right? These days it’s really in the power, the entrepreneur hands, a lot of the time to, to get out there and to share your message and your story with the world. And although there are, you know, great examples of PR teams still doing wonderful things, and I love PR people, and I think startups should hire them and individuals should hire them. A lot of it these days is really up to you.
CDO (06:16):
And I think that is terrifying, but also encouraging to a lot of people, because it basically means that you have most of the tools at your fingertips to execute. And so it’s just a matter of trying to learn a few of them so that you can essentially, you know, make a splash, right? I mean, I think a classic example of this would be, you know, I can’t tell you how many times in, in a startup that, you know, I’ve invested in or been working with, they have hired PR people or PR teams, you know, or entire departments of teams to basically execute on a lot of things that you can do individually as, as a solo preneur. Right. And so learning how to do some of those things is, is probably one of your biggest kind of value adds if you are a solopreneur or if you have a small startup and you don’t have a lot of staff.
RV (07:12):
Yeah. And I, you know, I think this is helpful to hear you talk about this because you know, AIG and I kind of straddle this world a little bit of entrepreneurs and the, especially at success magazine, I’m I’m entrepreneurship is kinda my explicit focus. And then that’s kind of our friends circle and social media. But even in my own mind, I’ve always kind of separated and thought of like personal branding, quote, unquote, social media, podcasting writing books. I’ve kind of thought of that as like, that’s a thing for speakers and coaches and consultants. But what I hear you saying is that’s not, it’s not just for those people that, that this is a, those skill sets applied directly to entrepreneurs even where the brand is not their name per se, but it is, it’s trying to create awareness for this new company or this new idea. Am I hearing,
CDO (08:12):
I mean, I think there’s sort of two factors. There’s one issue, which is, you know, with every passing year, there’s more pressure to have some sort of a presence online, no matter what your job is. Right. that may be simply a, you know, a LinkedIn profile saying what you do, but you know, there’s different ways to have a presence online, but with every year there’s more pressure to have presence online. Then I would say the second issue is just what we are seeing is that many people are now leading these multi career lives, right? So you might be an executive coach today as your full-time job. And then in five years, that might be a part of what you do, but you might also be publishing your first book. And when publishing your first book, you’re going to need a little bit more of a platform to get the word out. Right. So there’s kind of this idea that personal branding is a thread that takes you through your whole career and trying to get some of the tools in place to build a little bit of an audience now will be valuable to you in the future, wherever you may go.
RV (09:16):
Yeah. I mean, I think that’s really cool. I think you’re a great example of someone who’s done that, and it hasn’t been a through line. Like you kind of built a personal brand starting early, and now you’ve had these kind of different seasons that you continue to move through. The, I guess the other thing I didn’t really connect directly is how important is PR for a startup, because in my mind, again, I sort of separate them and go, okay, personal branding. It’s almost like a little bit of a it’s for, for many years. It has kind of felt like a vanity thing. I’m like, oh, likes and followers and yada, yada. But now I think the world is waking up more to it’s like, no, this is just about marketing it’s advertising. It’s it’s, it’s reaching people. So is, is that like, is PR pretty critical for startups and, and for venture backed companies or the companies that you looked to angel invest in? Is that, is that a, is that a core component of what you look at and evaluate is like the ability of this company or this founder to go out and get attention for what they’re doing
CDO (10:28):
Well. So in this day and age kind of, we are enticed by things that are able to get our intention online. Right. And that means that we read those things, we click on those things, we download those things, we buy those things. So if you are a startup or an individual, if you were trying to sell something, whether it’s your own services, your own book or your own widgets, you will have to get an online presence and try to build that. That’s really quite honestly what the world has come to. Right? So it’s time to stop sort of saying, do we need social media? And instead think about how you can use it sort of biasly for your business or your individual kind of empire. Now, that being said, I mean, one of the greatest tools or assets of sort of the social media world is the ability to create kind of an outsized impression of the work you do.
CDO (11:20):
Right? And I’m not talking about it in authentic impression, impression by any means, but I am talking about the ability to get out there and get your product in front of lots of people on Instagram, say when maybe it’s just you and two people in a garage pumping out those widgets, right. And someone on Instagram might see how effective you, you seem to be promoting this, or, you know, how it’s in the hands of so many people and not really understand the humble beginnings or the humble origins that, you know, this amazing widget coming from. So I think that PR is, is probably, you know, in the age of social media, you know, probably should be rebranded into just something like moment making, essentially, because that is really kind of the key to most social media success. I mean, so I wrote this whole book, social media success for every brand.
CDO (12:12):
And one of, kind of the big things behind it. One of the big key seeds is that everybody needs to be on social media, everyone who has an individual brand or, or a company, but you don’t need to be everywhere. Right. So you really need to pick one or two. And in that book, I walk you through how to find the one or two that are right for you. And then you need to really focus on that. Right. And so when you have a platform that works for you and works for your followers, let’s just, let’s just say it’s Instagram, right. There are kind of three main things that you’re always trying to think about when you are thinking about your presence and your brand on that platform. The first thing is, is just your story. I mean, you and I are both fans, Don and StoryBrand, and so understanding your story and what you’re actually trying to share is the most important thing.
CDO (13:00):
The second thing is making sure that you are engaging with the people who are following you, engaging with your current followers is way more important than trying to get new ones. And then the third thing is just making sure that you are always to some extent, so you’re saying on outreach, whether it’s to influencers or to other sort of peers and your network, but always trying to grow that network through outreach. So those are sort of the three things within whatever platform choice you are choosing that you’ve got to really think about. And then I think when, when you think about those things, I think there’s a way to sort of reframe the idea of PR as, as really moment making, I mean, going back to Don Miller again, I remember he wrote some blog posts or maybe it was on Twitter, or maybe it was on Instagram some years ago about reading you know, the heat Heath brothers chip Heath, and rather, okay. So what’s the book they wrote. That’s called that’s about moments. I don’t know,
RV (14:00):
I’ve read made to stick, but I don’t think that okay.
CDO (14:02):
That’s what I’ve read some book that has something about moments and Don, I believe he posted this somewhere. Maybe he just told me I’m not really sure, but he said that there is a section of that book, which is basically just talking about the importance of creating moments in your lives. And it’s convicted him in the power of moments. It’s very cryptic. And so after reading that book, he and Betsy and some couple were out at dinner and it was just the four of them. And he, you know, using the knowledge that he gained from that book thought, you know, what can I do to really make us have a fantastic moment at this, at this dinner table? You know? And so I, I think the end of the story is he did something crazy with some dessert that the waiter waitress brought out and everyone was shocked and it was very funny and that always people would remember. But the point is just that this idea of moment making is probably one of the simplest and the most effective things you can think about when you think about personal branding on social media, because you’re going to have to come up with sort of a long-term strategy for what you want to be and who you want to do and who you want to be. But ultimately making sure that that long-term strategy is really highlighted by interesting moments is, is going to be the key to pushing your brand forward.
RV (15:26):
I love that. I mean, I think that’s so cool. The moment making thing there’s several para like that. I found that to be true in our own career and several of our clients and friends is that is really the value of PR is it’s like a reason to come out and tell them something, which is if you’re already talking to them every day. You know, and I guess the way I think about it is on a daily basis, your shoes should be talking to your audience in a way that you’re just adding value to them. And when you get these PR hits or moments, it’s, it’s, it’s kind of a natural way to also let them know what’s going on with you sorta sorta through a third through a third party. And and, and you’re saying that as a VC firm, or as an angel investor yourself, your, one of the criteria that you are using to select the opportunities that you invest in is based on either a person’s ability, a proven ability to go out and kind of get attention, call a PR, just get attention for what they’re doing, or your belief that either that person or the product itself is noteworthy enough or remarkable enough that it will gather attention true or false.
CDO (16:52):
True. So either, you know, I’m already seeing it to be so just to be clear. So I’m, I invest in venture capital and I’m basically a venture capitalist. I invest in early stage startups with really high potential growth for growth in the tech industry. And I’m investing at the really, really early stages, right? So sometimes you’re, you’re seeing someone who has already been able to, you know, get a hundred thousand Instagram followers who like their blog and they just come up with a product idea and, you know, you don’t know if the product’s going to work, but you see that this person has high engagement in their personal brand. And so you think, okay, this would be an interesting person to back. Let’s put in some money into a very, very early stages of their new company, which is going to be about creating this widget. Right? So that might be sort of one scenario, right?
RV (17:40):
That’s that’s like betting the G that’s like bet the jockey, not the horse kind of a thing.
CDO (17:44):
Totally, totally bet. The jockey, not the horse. Now there’s another side of really early stage, which is basically betting the horse, not the jockey, right. Or you’re betting the horse and the jockey, but you’re kind of looking at the horse. You’re saying this is an incredible product. I’ve never seen a razor, this awesome in my life. The founder’s also very strong, but, you know, I believe that I can sort of make this fly by, by helping them on sort of the media side. So those are sort of the two ways kind of, I think about how branding is related to early stage startups. Some people sort of already have it naturally, and that’s great. And they’re trying to figure out how to operationalize a product and a business out of that. Other people I believe are just riped to be sort of pushed into the spotlight, essentially.
RV (18:31):
That’s awesome. Yeah. I love thinking about that. It’s either bet the jockey, not the horse or bet the horse and the jockey which I think is really cool, but I guess, you know, part of like the, the underlying current I hear you saying is that you guys are making investments of real money into real ideas here. That, and it’s, it’s not just a game of vanity of like, oh, likes and followers. It’s this is real big business, big business decisions are made based upon whether either the, the horse or the jockey can actually get in front of a lot of people, because ultimately that drives whether a huge part of whether or not the business is successful.
CDO (19:14):
Absolutely. So what I typically invest in is consumer, right? So anything in consumer, whether it’s on the internet or it’s a physical good being shown on the internet. And when it comes to consumer media is super, super important. I mean, I can sort of tell you that this is a really crazy random example of, of something that I’m doing with a company. So one of the ways you met me was when Ken Blanchard and I had recently written that book one minute mentoring, I’m a huge fan of mentoring, of being mentored. And so I really see investing in early stage companies as a form of mentoring, you know, for the most part, I’ve got a couple dozen companies in my portfolio. And depending on the day, I’m having some type of talk with the founder about some issue they have, and we’re trying to figure out some thorny problem or, you know, encourage them in, in an important way.
CDO (20:04):
That’s pretty much what I do, right. And there’s money involved in the mentoring relationship, but that’s pretty much what it is, right. Investing being an early stage investor is a form of mentoring. So I have this one, founder, her name is Emma, and she has a women’s neobanks. So it’s a women’s digital bank. She came to me about a year and a half ago. I had heard of her because I had seen her at a, at an event winning a big contest. And so she had come to me for funding about a year and a half ago. I was super interested in this, you know, there, we have digital banks these days for all types of individuals. You know, we have them for immigrants and for teens and for kids and for parents and black people and for Asian people and for millennials. But we don’t yet have consumer banking for women.
CDO (20:52):
That just hasn’t been something that has been created yet. So I was really interested in this idea. She came up with, so I invested in her company once I invested in her company. Again, now it’s been a year and a half. And Emma is now at this sort of critical point in her journey where she’s got 150,000 women who are, you know, trying to get on the wait list for this new women’s bank that she is creating, but Emma is now pregnant. And so what is she going to do? Because it is, it is her first baby. And, you know, she wants to take some time off. And so we think through a strategy of how we’re going to handle that. And then we think, Hey, you know, we can handle this, but then we can also think about a way to share how we are handling this.
CDO (21:35):
And so what we did is we basically created a moment out of it. I flew up to see her in Seattle. I put on a funny costume, we put it on Twitter and it went viral, right? And essentially that helped us to share our solution, which was that I’m going to help out and step in at Emma’s company for a couple of months while she takes some maternity leave and turning it into a moment that could help her company. And so those are the types of things that really early stage entrepreneurs can always be thinking about. I mean, having a day-to-day strategy is important, but having sort of these peaks and these reasons that people are going to be interested in your brand in the first place are interested in your story in the first place and have a reason that they’ll come to you for the first time is really essential.
RV (22:21):
Yeah, that is so cool. I’ve never thought about early stage investing. It’s kind of funny. Cause normally, normally the client pays the coach in this case, the investor actually puts money into the business, but it’s for the long-term payoff of, of what that business will become. And then you just like, you put money in and you put the time of coaching and mentoring and you know, then you get paid. If it, if it all works out. I you know, as you’ve been talking here, I’ve been, I can’t help. But think of, there is a this statistic that came out of one of our study. So we did, we started to realize that brand builders group that wow, a bunch of our clients are not just, I would say, just not like in a demeaning way, but you know, I, I consider myself like an author and a speaker first and had been a coach consultant my whole life.
RV (23:13):
AIJ is more of the entrepreneur of the two of us. But what we’re realizing is that about half of our clients are aren’t personalities, they are entrepreneurs. And so when we did this trends and personal branding study, we asked a lot of questions around how much does a personal brand drive a business. And one of the key data points was this was it’s a US-based study is that 82% of Americans agree that companies are more influential if their founder has a personal brand that aligns with their own values. So you know, to your point about sharing the story that of our entire study and, and by the way that 82% is, that’s all ages. If you just look at older millennials and, and younger millennials, it’s more like 88%. So in the next generation, this is going to go up even higher to your point about going, sharing your story. It’s wild. But, but so to finish that sentence, I was going to say is of every question we asked in our entire study, that was the most dramatic number that was the largest like percentage number of, of, of any other question. And it has to do with this idea of the founder sharing their, like their personal values. And if people align with that, then they’re more likely to buy from that person.
CDO (24:51):
I mean, a hundred percent, you know, while you’re talking I’m of course having visions of when I was working at Twitter 10, 15 years ago, and we were working hard to get basically CEOs of large companies on the platform, right. And at the time it was much harder than it would be today, but it’s kind of funny that in some ways, it, it maybe wasn’t even much harder then than it is now, simply because when you get into huge size, big size companies, you often have the top executives not wanting to sort of go through the process of creating a personal brand, not really knowing how there’s lots of layers of, you know, comms teams, PR team bureaucracy. So it’s interesting that when we think about personal branding connected to the statistic, that 82% of Americans agree that, you know, whether the company CEO has an influential product, it matters. It’s really an advantage to basically small business owners or solo preneurs or people who, you know, can pull the, can pull the strings in their own business. Right.
RV (25:50):
Yeah. Yeah. And that’s, it’s, it’s it’s kinda like, you know, you’re mentioned the chip chip and Dan Heath book. This one makes me think of Malcolm Gladwell’s book, David and Goliath. Totally. A hundred percent. Yeah, of course. Of course. It’s kind of the idea that, okay, we all think of it as like, you know, David is this huge underdog, but in fact, every underdog has advantages that the favorite doesn’t have. And to your whole point here about the founder and executive using social media, it’s like, it’s easier for a solo preneur to do this. It’s more natural for them to do this. There’s not as much risk. There’s not as much bureaucracy. There’s not as many people with an opinion. There’s not as many protocols and guidelines. It’s just kind of like, you can press a button and tell the world the reason I started this, this, you know, Sara Blakely as a great example. She’s like I started this company because I realized that every other company in this space was started by a man. Like it’s not actually a woman making products like intimate products for women, like, and that’s super powerful and people, and this data point was exciting, like really shocking to us going. It totally makes sense that we buy into the story of the people who share the same values as us. And that that’s an asset that far too many CEOs are under-utilizing.
CDO (27:16):
I mean, the Sara Blakely example is so great. So Sarah is in so incredibly authentic on social media, right? And Instagram is sort of her place where she really shows you her personal life. But her engagement is so incredibly high. So over the years she has posted, I guess, three times about one of my books. She’s taken this one book I wrote some years ago called design your day, which is a book about productivity. And she takes it on these sort of mini think weeks she does. Right. And this has happened three times over the years. And every time it happens, it’s like, my Instagram just blows up. Like, I’ve never said more engagement in my life.
Speaker 5 (27:51):
I don’t know her at all. I don’t know her at all. I don’t know her at all,
CDO (27:53):
But it’s because he has developed such a very authentic connection with her followers. It’s, she’s an incredible, incredible case study of that. And it’s an interesting one because she already had a big business when she was starting to do that. So it’s kind of unusual in that sense, but right. I mean, there are lots of yeah, there are lots of examples like her out there.
RV (28:17):
And, and so, you know, we, we obviously share the mutual friend, Donald Miller. His is the same way if Donald it’s like going on Donald’s podcast is a bigger deal than being on the today show, like in terms of, and that’s another thing I think that’s kind of fascinating. That is another shift that’s happening here is that the big media opportunities aren’t from companies, they’re from individuals, just like you’re, you’re saying that, you know, getting an, getting a writeup on, you know, some major media outlet is always really nice, but you don’t, at least I don’t typically see the kind of engagement from that as I would from, you know, with if Lewis Howes makes a post about us, it, it blows us up more than anything. And it’s, it’s all because of this, this transferred like trust with a perk between people, rather than like this, this faceless enterprise, which is either a company or a meat, even a media outlet, it it’s, it’s really wild, this shift that’s happening.
CDO (29:22):
I mean, you and I, as authors know, you know, it’s think of the work that goes into trying to pitch you to something like the today show, right? And sometimes it can be awesome sometimes, you know, you can spin the wheel and it’s the right morning on the right day of the week and it’s the right segment and it really hits. But most of the time, these days, those major opportunities simply do not produce the type of engagement or sales that, that you’re looking for. And these basically more niche opportunities will, it’s incredible. It’s really, really interesting how we’ve sort of broken the wheel of marketing and re redrawn it with social media.
RV (30:00):
No, it’s, it is really, really wild. Well so I have one other question for you before we do that. Claire, where do you want people to go if they want to learn about you and kind of connect into you know, some of the stuff that you’re doing and get ahold of your books and all that? Sure.
CDO (30:15):
So I’m really active on Twitter at Claire C L a I R E or otherwise I’m at Claire Diaz or teas.com. And those are sort of my homes on the interwebs. You know, as, as I was saying, everyone sort of has to pick one or two social media platforms that work best for them. And so for me, Twitter is really my space. I’m on Instagram, but for me, Instagram is really pretty personal. I, you know, I tend to share a lot about my kids and my house and, you know, the bad things I’m trying to cook and that kind of thing. And so I think that if there’s sort of one point of encouragement, I could give to anyone out there, who’s thinking about how to sort of get their mind around this concept of personal branding. You really need to just step back and think about one social media platform as being the place to focus on. And as I said in my book, you know, I can take it there. I take you through a quiz about how to figure out the one for you, but sometimes people just know inherently, you know, this is the place where, where I belong, where I think the people who follow me, who care about me, who want to read my books or buy my widgets will be, and just, just focus on that one place and focus on engagement.
RV (31:24):
Oh, that’s so cool. Well, we’ll link up to that book that you’re referencing social media success for every brand which is Claire’s latest and as well as social media and Twitter, it’s pretty cool that you’re such an OJI on Twitter that it’s just at Clare. That’s like Oprah. It’s like you know, that’s, that’s the re that’s the rare air, but that was going to be my final question in terms of like, what’s the one thing that people should do. And I think that’s super encouraging to go pick one platform and, and dominate it and, and do that. And this has been so insightful, Claire. I mean, you just, it’s really edifying. I think for me speaking into both the world of, of personality driven personal brands, as well as, you know, entrepreneurial driven personal brands, that, that this is a big part of the future of business and the way that decisions are being made about growing those businesses and who gets invested in and just really appreciate your time and your friendship and, and for sure, your professional perspective on this, it’s, it’s been awesome as always
CDO (32:29):
To be here to say hi to AGA and the kids. And I hope you can get in that pool afterwards. It’s already, it’s already summertime at Nashville, snip. That’s right.
RV (32:38):
It’s on the docket. Thanks Claire.

Ep 183: How to Develop Stronger Social Justice Sensitivity with Kim Scott | Recap Episode

Speaker 1 (00:00):

RV (00:07):
Hey, welcome to this special recap edition of the influential personal brand podcast is Rory Vaden breaking down this interview, filling in for AJ going solo today. But, but this incredible interview with Kim Scott, which kinda caught me a little bit by surprise at how powerful it was. And, you know, Kim is really known for radical candor. I mean, at least in my circles, she’s, she’s known it was a very successful book. And so her new book here I hadn’t heard much about. And, and so just getting into this, it was, it was meaningful for me. And it’s funny because one of the things I love
RV (00:53):
About this show and doing this show, you know, for, for you and with you is how often these tactical kind of personal brand strategy conversations end up applying to just our everyday real life. Right? Like and this was one of those where it was like, okay, this, this affects my personal brand, but this also, you know, maybe even more so I see this one going, geez, this, this, this effect, some things going on for me personally, that I need to, you know, just do better, do better with and be more mindful of. And so anyways, yeah, there’s, there’s, there’s a couple of key takeaways here. And, and they, they apply, I think in both personal to both personally and, and then professionally or with the personal brand. So the first thing that she talked about that really stuck with me was this, this concept of the three levels of bias.
RV (01:59):
And, you know, I like to think my I like to think of myself as a thing most of us probably do as not being prejudiced and, and, you know, not being discriminatory and being, you know, kind of like open minded and, you know, for the most part, pretty welcoming and receptive of, of different, different people from different, you know, places in life and different belief systems and things. But it was powerful for me to think of that. Not as like a yes, no, as like a, okay, it’s this, or it isn’t this like you either are, or you aren’t, and it really is more of a continuum. And so her three levels, I think her lowest level she said was, was biased. Meaning, you know, it’s kind of like UFM somebody, or you say something that’s unfair and you didn’t really mean to, it’s just kind of like, you’re not even like aware of it.
RV (02:54):
And then there’s prejudice, which is like, oh no, I know exactly what I’m saying. I know why I’m saying it. And I actually do believe this, and I do believe whatever. There’s a difference here between two classes of people or however you want to call it. And then there’s bullying, which is like, kind of felt to me, she didn’t say it quite like this, but the way that I processed it was it’s basically like prejudice plus anger, right? It’s, it’s like prejudice plus emotion where you’re, you’re deliberately trying to harm someone or to, you know, maybe put them, put them down or whatever, however you want to, however you want to say it. So I think the first part was just, it hit me just thinking about this as a continuum and going, oh yeah. Well, I, I, I, I almost, I most definitely probably have some biases I’m not even aware of and even just having the conversation was powerful because it made me think about okay.
RV (03:52):
I wonder what those are. And I wonder how much they’re showing up in my life that I don’t even, I don’t even realize it. And specifically in with your personal brand, right. Is, is going okay, where are there things that I’m doing in my writing and my speaking in my content or my curriculum that I may be either, you know, just, just oblivious to the idea that I’m, I’m potentially either offending someone or excluding somebody or leaving something out. And you know, I think, I think that’s a good, that’s a good thought. I mean, it’s a, it’s, it’s, it’s good to be mindful of that, especially in today’s day and age. Right. and you certainly don’t want to step into the waters of the cancel culture. I don’t think by like, you know, accidentally a bunch of people off and having it come back at us and, and, you know, I guess every personal brand is different in these regards, but for most of us, we’re, we’re probably not deliberately trying to offend other people.
RV (04:58):
And so, you know, we want to be, just be be aware of that. So I think it’s kind of like, okay, where on this continuum am I in? You know, just how I think about people, how I talk about people, how exclude certain groups in both my personal life and then also with my personal brand and my professional life. I think that’s powerful. And I think that’s a, I think it’s a mature, I think that’s just a maturity. I’m not saying you have to please everyone. I think there is wisdom in the self-awareness of you just going, okay, where am I on this? And are there, are there places on doing it? If it’s, if you, you know, if you want to do it on purpose, then that’s your choice. And I think that’s fine. And that’s part of your, part of your brand and your, your strategy and your choice.
RV (05:43):
But I think being aware of it is, is the point here. And, and that was really good. Another thing that she said is she, she talked about, don’t a size, the criticism don’t criticize the criticism, and this is the one that I need to do better. I mean, it’s kind of embarrassing to admit this, but even as she was saying it, I was like, oh crap, this is me. I criticize the criticism. And, and so here’s, what’s happened. It’s like, you know, I say that I want feedback. And I do. I like to be aware. I I’m, you know, because of my experience with Toastmasters in the world championship, I received so much feedback for years and years and years of just people critiquing me and my presentation and all that stuff. And, you know, I’ve, I’ve had a decent bit of coaching over the years and different mentors and stuff, like give me quite a lot of feedback, but I think it’s more in my personal life.
RV (06:48):
If somebody says something to me, you know, where they’ll say, okay, Rory, you’re doing this and this and this. And I’m like, okay. Yeah, but you’re doing this right. So it’s kind of like, they’ll share something with me, which I don’t, I don’t it’s not like I disagree with them, but I kind of like a sidestep it right. Where I’m like oh the E I, you know, maybe it’s like, I, I kind of sidestep because I don’t, it’s like I don’t fully receive it. I just immediately kind of like judo move and like go, come back and like, well, I might do that, but you do this. And I think it’s, you know, I think it’s just, that’s probably my defense mechanism. That’s the way that, that, that my brain reacts to being, you know, re, re being told it’s not perfect.
RV (07:42):
Which of course it isn’t, but I, I still do that. And, and I hate that. I do that. I, I need the feedback. I want the feedback. I mean, feedback is, is like the instruction that makes you better feedback, changes your life. I mean, without feedback, you don’t know what’s working and what isn’t and, and feedback is, is like the world revealing to you, the world, giving you instruction about how to make your life better. And, and yet there’s some defensiveness part of that that still lives in my heart that doesn’t want, you know, that, that this kind of responds reactively to it and says well, yeah, but you, and I really need to work on that. I’m going to work on that and I’m going to get better at that because I just, I just thought that was super powerful.
RV (08:33):
Don’t criticize the criticism. I think it’s really easy to do that. And I also think the other thing that she didn’t really say, I don’t think, but it, it made me think of this. This is another, you know, while we’re on the topic of Rory Vaden weaknesses in his life I think another thing that I do is I’ll respond to criticism with criticism, or I’ll respond to feedback with feedback. So not only will I kind of like, yeah, like criticize their criticism. It’s like, well, that’s not fair. That’s not honest. That’s not right. You know, that’s kind of, I guess, criticizing the criticism. I’ll say, well, I might be this way, but you do this and this and this, or let me tell you about you. And it’s like the worst time to give feedback to someone else’s probably when they’re giving feedback to you, it’s like you’re doing it defensively and emotionally.
RV (09:20):
And in response to what they’re doing, which really is probably trying to help you. I mean, sometimes you have haters online and that kind of stuff. And you know, don’t, don’t pay attention to those people where they’re just, they’re just spit and hate for no reason. That’s completely irrational. But when you know, it’s people that are close to you and matter to you, it’s like, I, I w I want to be a person who is easy to talk to. I want to be a person that is easy for people to tell me when they think I’m doing, like, I have opportunity for improvement, because then a lot of people will tell me, which means I won’t have a lot of blind spot spots, which means I’ll be able to make a lot of adaptations, which means I’ll be, I’ll become better. But in that moment, it’s just like, oh, I hate, you know, there’s just some automatic, like knee-jerk response to, well, I guess, you know, just like I guess this humility of acknowledging and, and receiving the idea that you’re not perfect.
RV (10:23):
You are screwing stuff up. Like you have lots of room for improvement. And even though we kind of say, we want to be open to those things, I don’t think any of us like to hear it, at least I, I don’t. So anyways, I need to I need to work. I need to work on that in a, and I’m going to work on that. The, the, and then the third thing, which was huge, this, this, this was big. And I’ve thought about this concept before, but it was so eloquent. I thought the way that Kim expressed it and packaged it where, and here’s what she said. She said, my intentions don’t matter. My impact does, or that’s how I processed it. My intentions don’t matter. My impact does. And it’s like this, one’s a little bit of a balance, right. Because I see the, and there’s two sides of this.
RV (11:17):
And it also, I think, applies both personally and professionally, right? So one, one side of this is to say, well, I said something and it’s your choice to be offended. There is a part of that that I think is very true. I mean, I actually, I do believe that is true, but there’s kind of an attitude. There’s a piece of that attitude that I think is healthy right. As to is that I can’t, I can’t live my life or communicate my personal brand and everything I say and believe constantly through the lens of trying to make everyone happy because you can’t. And so I think there’s a bit of health healthiness to that, but I think there’s, there’s an unhealthy part of that, which is an automatic dissolving of any response, personal responsibility. That part is not good. It has to go well, you know, it’s not my fault.
RV (12:06):
You’re offended. That’s your problem. Like, I think that is an immature and, and a little bit of an arrogant expression of not being open to the idea that most feedback has at least a kernel of truth in it. I mean, even, even from trolls sometimes, which is, it makes it even harder is you know, there’s, sometimes there’s a bit, there’s a bit of truth in it, right? I mean, like, if you look for example on in my you know, my books, like if you look at my Amazon reviews on the books, I’ve written, the most common criticism I’ll get is people will say, oh, you know, he talks so much about God and the Bible. I could even pay attention, which I don’t agree with. I mean, I don’t agree with, I kind of feel like, well, I don’t talk about it that much, but it is true, right?
RV (12:56):
Like I’ve mentioned Bible verses, this is, this is, you know, there’s, there’s, that’s a part of my life that I believe in. And, and I cannot communicate. I mean, I cannot share my full self without sharing some of that, but, but, you know, so, but I do think it’s like, oh, okay, it’s good for me to know that for some people that, you know, affects them and not just to kind of be like, oh, well, screw you. Cause that’s not, that’s not how it is. So, so anyways, I think there’s a healthy part of this that you’re, you’re always in consideration with your personal brand of going okay, well, I can’t make everyone happy. I’m not going to try to, like, I can’t make that. I can’t expend a ton of energy on that. I’ll never have energy to do anything else, but I think there is some wisdom, a lot of wisdom here to what she’s saying is, is going, even if it wasn’t your intention, it’s what happened.
RV (13:41):
Like, even if it’s not what I said, it’s what they heard. Even if it’s not what I did, it’s how they felt, even if it was not what I was trying to do, it’s how they took it. And that is something that is is, is an issue. And I have some part of that. They have some part of it too, but so do I, and, and I, and I think in your personal life, you kind of have to make a choice of just going, yeah, I don’t care, or I do care, but, you know, I would say, I don’t feel like you can care that you should care too much constantly cause that’s the that’ll consume you. But with that, with my personal brand, I do really care about the concept of is what, I’m, what I am transmitting, what other people are receiving.
RV (14:32):
That’s a worthwhile question is what I’m transmitting, what other people are receiving. If there’s a breakdown for whatever thing, it doesn’t have to be like a political thing or a racial thing, or any of that, just the concept that I intended to communicate. One thing, what was received was something different. That is a weakness in my communication. That means there’s an area for growth in that is my responsibility. That even if I don’t accept your political view or your feedback, or I disagree with your assessment, the fact that what I’m intending to communicate is not what is being received. That is my problem. That is my issue. And as a mission-driven messenger, that’s something that I should care about. I should at least be aware of it because that’s the art of communication. I think the art of communication is having alignment between what you intended and, and the impact you actually created.
RV (15:30):
You know, so if you’re intending to people off and you’re them off fine, but, but she saying the problem is when there’s this breakdown between your intention and your actual impact. And so anyways, I, I know I’m, you know, just kind of touching on this. This is a very kind of abstract concept, but I think it’s super powerful, especially in like our closest, you know, our marriages, our relationships with our kids, our best friends. But even with our personal brand, that is the, the art of communication is creating alignment and congruence between what I intended to communicate, what I transmitted and what actually was received, what was actually heard. And I’m trying to always shorten the gap of those two things. That’s what makes an excellent communicator. And so, even though I may not agree with their assessment, I need to at least be open to the idea that, that my intentions don’t matter. My impact does, and I should be aware of the impact I am creating, not just the intentions that I have. So that was super powerful and interesting and fascinating. And
RV (16:40):
I think nuanced
RV (16:42):
And both in its application to our personal brand
RV (16:45):
And our personal life. And so hopefully you get some of that encouragement every time you come, things that you can apply to your business, but also apply it to other parts of your life. It’s our great honor to be able to speak into your life and into your business. We love it. Our team is so grateful for you. Please keep coming back and share this with a friend. You know, when you get one of these episodes that you love share it, that helps us so much Akita share it directly from our blog, or just take a screenshot posted on Instagram or something, tag us. But just, you know, a lot of people need encouragement. And if you know, someone who does, we would love for you to be sharing our stuff with them. And most of all, we’re grateful for you being here. So that’s it for today on this recap edition, we’ll catch you next time on the influential personal right.

Ep 182: How to Develop Stronger Social Justice Sensitivity with Kim Scott

RV (00:06):
Hey brand builder, Rory Vaden here. Thank you so much for taking the time to check out this interview as always, it’s our honor to provide it to you for free and wanted to let you know there’s no big sales pitch or anything coming at the end. However, if you are someone who is looking to build and monetize your personal brand, we would love to talk to you and get to know you a little bit and hear about some of your dreams and visions and share with you a little bit about what we’re up to see if we might be a fit. So if you’re interested in a free strategy call with someone from our team, we would love to hear from you. You can do that at brand builders, group.com/podcall brand builders, group.com/podcall. We hope to talk to you soon.
I am excited to introduce you to a new friend of mine, Kim Scott.

RV (00:57):
You probably recognize her as the New York times bestselling author of the book, radical candor but a mutual friend of ours introduced us to each other. And so we’re really just kind of getting to know each other, but I’ve got a lot of respect for her work specifically with radical candor, which was you know, a huge book is a huge book. She also turned that book into a business an executive education company. And we’ll talk a little bit about that and she’s done the same with her new book. So she has a new book that is out just came out. If you’re listening to this, this episode, as it’s being released called just work get BPO stuff, get stuff done fast and fair. And that is her newest book. So what you may not realize is that she’s been a high profile CEO coach for years and years, she worked with people at Dropbox, Qualtrix, Twitter, several other tech companies.

RV (01:57):
She was also a member of the faculty at Apple university. And then before that she worked at Google on the ad sense and YouTube and DoubleClick teams. There was a portion of her career. She worked directly for Sheryl Sandberg. She tells some great stories about that. And so anyways, we just thought it would be fun to have her come on, talk a little bit about her journey, becoming an author, but really talk about just work the new book and also how this, you know, kind of getting things done fast and fair applies to those of us with personal brands and businesses and our online community. So anyways, Kim, welcome to the show.

KS (02:36):
Thank you so much. It’s an honor to be here. Thanks for having me. Yeah.

RV (02:40):
So how did you go from radical candor to a book about work? I mean, correct me if I’m wrong. I, as I understand this, this is just work. The new book is really about workplace injustices. How did you talk to us about how did that transition happen?

KS (03:02):
So after I wrote radical candor, and by the way, if you write a book about feedback, you’re going to get a lot of it. And I started, and so I was giving a presentation about radical candor at a tech company in San Francisco. And the CEO of that company was someone I really liked and admired a lot and had been our colleague for the better part of a decade and is one of two few black women CEOs in tech. And after I gave the presentation, she pulled me aside and she said to me, I really love the idea of radical candor, Kim, and it’s, I think it’s going to help me build the kind of culture I want, but I got to tell you it’s much harder for me to put it into practice than it is for you. She said, yeah, as soon as I offer even the most compassionate candor, I get slimed with the angry black woman stereotype.

KS (03:54):
And I knew this was true. And I sort of realized three things at the same time. The first was that I had failed to be the kind of colleague that I wanted to be, that I saw myself as, because I had been in denial about the kinds of things that were happening to her. I had failed to notice that over the better part of a decade working together, she always 100% of the time showed up as cheerful and pleasant and never the slightest bit annoyed and believed me and that period of time she had what to be PO about. So it never had occurred to me that the, the toll that must take on her and I had ignored the kinds of things that were causing her to have to behave that way. Furthermore, I had also been in denial about the kinds of things that were happening to me as a woman in the workplace, because it was harder for her than for me. It was harder for me than for the men who I worked with to put these ideas into practice. And I had just kind of glossed over that fact, but touch very lightly on it in the book and the third revelation I had. Yeah, you’re talking

RV (05:02):
About in radical candor, you touched on that very lightly about the, about the messenger in addition to kind of like the method effects that can affect things just

KS (05:15):
About sexism in the workplace. And, and the third thing that I realized was that throughout my career, I had very often failed to be the kind of leader that would prevent this kind of nonsense from allowing everyone on my team to just work, to, to do the best work of their lives, sort of unimpeded by nonsense by, by, by, by various sorts of bias, prejudice and bullying that happens at work. And so I realized this was something I needed to give more thought to, and that was sort of when I sat down to start writing just work.

RV (05:53):
Gotcha. Okay. So you’re, you’re kind of waking up to the idea that in justice or bias, which I guess would be a lighter form on the, on the continuum is, is something that is there all day every day. And I mean, is that, I mean, is that part of the conclusion you would still stand in? Is that like what you said it was harder for her. It was, you know, it was harder for her than you harder for you than maybe a white male. And do you still stand very much convicted in that space? That, that is the truth. Yeah,

KS (06:26):
Yeah, absolutely. A hundred percent. And in fact, I would say it’s not only biased. I think one of the mistakes that I made for a lot of my career was that I, I tried to commence myself. It was always bias, but I think it’s one of the core ideas in the book is it’s really important to distinguish between bias, prejudice, and bullying. So bias. I’m going to define as not meaning it prejudice, I’m going to define as meaning it, it’s a very conscious belief and bullying. I’m going to define as meaning harm. And these are three very different attitudes and behaviors. And I think both when we’re confronted with them as the person harmed by these idea, by these, by these attitudes and behaviors, we’ve got to respond differently. And as leaders we’ve got to respond differently, we’ve got to, we’ve got to create very different kinds of interventions depending on what we’re facing.

RV (07:20):
Huh. And so w I mean, I think that’s really fascinating delineation there, but between those and what are some of the, as a, as a, as a leader in the workplace or as you’re training leaders, what are some of the things that you’re teaching them to look for to kind of identify, you know, bias, prejudice, bullying? I mean, and I think bullying to me feels a little more obvious, a little more noticeable, but to me it’s more like prejudice is a little harder to identify and then bias is almost like invisible. So, I mean, yeah,

KS (08:00):
So you’ve got to make the invisible visible. So, so, and by the way, it’s, it’s, you’ve got to notice what you are reluctant to notice, I guess, is a better way to put it. So one of the things that I recommend that leaders do is to create bias interrupters on their team. So, and there’s all different kinds of bias. There’s racial bias, there’s gender bias. There’s, there’s bias around sexual orientation. There’s bias around mental health. There’s all these biases that we have. And so rather than doing an abstract, unconscious bias training for folks, what I recommend is, is to teach people to, to come up with the phrase that they’re, that everybody’s going to agree on, that, that they’re going to use to flag bias when they notice it in a meeting or, or just in the hallway, in the office, on the zoom. And the important thing is that it’s a shared vocabulary.

KS (08:54):
So some teams we’ve worked with have chosen to say bias alert with my editor. He and I would use yo. So if he said, yo to me, I knew that night that I had said, or done something that was biased with tree air Bryant, my co-founder and I, we use a purple flag. So, so if tree air says purple flag to me, I know I’ve just said or done something biased. And then the nuts thing that leaders need to do is to teach people when you’re, when you are the person whose bias has been flagged how to respond. Because very often when, when somebody, when somebody points out that we sat or done something bias, we feel ashamed. And very often when we feel ashamed, we don’t respond well. In fact, we respond with denial or

RV (09:45):
Defensive, for sure. Like, nah, I didn’t say that. I didn’t mean that. I mean that, yeah, for sure. Yeah.

KS (09:50):
Yeah. I mean, I’ve, I’ve done that. I bet you we’ve all done that.
RV (09:55):
I feel almost like it’s a human instinct to that. It’s almost like a form of being attacked, like, like a same way. You would deal with a physical attack with like running away or fighting back. It’s like, when you under encounter this, like, you know, professional feedback is like, nah, nah, you know, that’s not, that’s not me. Yeah. Yeah.

KS (10:13):
So I think what you want to do is you want to teach people either to say, you’re right. I get it. I’m sorry. I’ll try not to do it again, but please point it out if I do. And if you don’t understand why, what you said or did was biased. You just say, I don’t, I don’t get it. Can you explain it to me after the meeting? And then the meeting goes on and it’s important that it be very quick, but these bias interruptions because bias happens so often. If, if, if we don’t learn how to interrupt it quickly and publicly, then, then it’s bound to keep going. So I, and I think you, you want to, as a leader, teach people to have kind of a growth mindset around their biases because obviously if you’re learning math or you’re learning to throw base, you’re learning any new skill, throw a baseball, you’re going to make mistakes.

KS (11:02):
And then you can only get better if someone points your mistakes out to you. And if you can overcome that natural feeling, and this is true in general, when I was teaching medical candor, I still do. People are defensive in the face of any kind of criticism. There’s specially defensive in the face of criticism around something that they said or did is biased. But we’ve got to learn how to accept this with a growth mindset, except this kind of feedback with the growth mindset and unlike other kinds of criticism, this needs to happen in public. It needs to happen in a meeting publicly because otherwise, if you don’t, if you don’t interrupt the bias, it’s gonna, it’s gonna continue and people will keep making the same mistakes. So, so that’s my, yeah. Let me tell you just like a quick story about a successful bias interruption.

KS (11:58):
So friend of mine, alien Lake walks into a meeting with two colleagues who are men and she sits down and her two colleagues sit down to her left and Ayleen is the person who has the expertise that is necessary for her team to win the deal with this other company they’re meeting with. So they’re sitting down on this long conference table, people from the other team file, and the first guy comes and sits down across from the guy to aliens left. The next guy comes in and sits across from the guy to his left. And then everybody files on down the table, kind of leaving a lane, dangling by herself at the end of the, at the end of the table. And so this is a little awkward, but she doesn’t let it bother her. She starts talking and the people on the other side of the table respond to the men who she’s as though she hasn’t talked as though they’ve taught. And this is a very sort of standard kind of no, not

RV (12:52):
An uncommon, not an uncommon, probably all too uncommon thing. Yeah.

KS (12:57):
Happen all the time. And it happens once it happens twice, it happens a third time. And finally the, the, her business partner stands up and said, I think Eileen and I should switch seats. So this is a small bias interruption. They don’t have like a co you know, they don’t have this. It’s

RV (13:14):
Not an intervention, like a big intervention, but they’re saying, Whoa, something’s going on here. I

KS (13:19):
Think Elena and I should switch seats and, and they switched seats. And the whole dynamic in the room changes because all of a sudden, the other side realizes what they’re doing and they stopped doing it. They didn’t mean to do it. And so I liked this story for a couple of reasons. One is, it was so much easier for him as an upstander to do this than it would have been for Eileen to do it. If she had stood up and said, I think we should switch seats. And then there would have been like bias heaped on top of bias. She, all of a sudden would have been aggressive or abrasive or having knows what else she would have been called. So it was much easier for him. And also his motivation is really, as an upstander is really important. Part of the reason he did it because he cares about Elaine and he didn’t like seeing her get ignored.

KS (14:03):
But the other part of the reason that he did it was because he wanted to win the deal. He wanted to just work. And he knew that AYLIEN had the expertise. And if he couldn’t get those people on the other team to listen to her,then they were not going to win the deal. So it’s, this is the just work part of just work. It, there was a justice element. There was like a, I just want to get the deal done. And, and there was also him just standing up, not for Eileen. It wasn’t like she was a helpless person, but to what was going on in the room. So that’s a simple example of somebody who used an I statement to intervene to, to flag. And, and the reason why I think it’s so important that leaders create these bias interrupters is that that sort of thing happens so rarely. And if you can get that kind of thing happening more on your Team
RV (14:59):
and the bias interrupters happen, the bias

KS (15:01):
Interrupter happens. So rarely. Yeah. The bias itself happens lot. Yeah. All the time incessantly. So if you can get that flywheel going, it’s like, doesn’t have to be a huge deal. And that it wasn’t like a major conflict, but it is a huge deal in that they won the deal because of it. And and everybody was able to do better work because the, the, the bias was gotten out of the way. Yeah.

RV (15:28):
And I, I mean, I, I really appreciate the message and kind of the spirit of that, you know, of the title, which is, you know, in alignment with the book, which is like, Hey, if we can get this bias and this prejudice out of here, then it’s like, we can just work. Like we can, we can come together as a team. We can focus, we can drive results and not like get caught up in, you know, nonsense as you, that word I think you used earlier. I, one thing I hope you don’t mind, I’m fascinated about this is I was wondering if, if I could talk to you a little bit about, you know, a lot of people who listen to this show are influenced. I mean, pretty much everyone who listens to this show in some level would re probably considered an influencer.
RV (16:07):
Some of them have very large following, some have very small followings. I think it’s really fascinating how you’re talking about how bias interrupters, this type of feedback should happen publicly. Whereas typically feedback is, is usually more private. You know, it makes my mind think of social media. Like this is the world we’re, we’re, we’re trying to navigate, particularly our community is going okay. One is, I guess, I guess my, my biggest question is to go, how do we catch ourselves? Particularly if we’re creating content, which is a little bit different, but not too much different. I wouldn’t think like, how do I create catch myself? And I, it could be with creating content, but I think it’s probably the same in a board room or the same at a restaurant, or anywhere we go, how do we catch ourselves committing these biases? And is there a way that we can create these interrupters for ourselves? And then is there a way that that does or does not shape our communication, our public communication through social? Yeah.
KS (17:12):
Yeah. It’s a really, it’s a really important question. So one of the things that I did when I was in the course of writing this book, because I was, obviously, I knew that I was probably writing in a way that was biased revealing certain prejudices. And so sometimes I tend to use very aggressive language that some people might consider bullying. And so I really wanted someone to help me flag this. I mean, I think that some people can, can give themselves feedback and can catch themselves, but I find I need others. I need other people to offer me criticism. And so I actually, I actually worked with a number of people who, who were sort of biased busters. So I asked them to read the book with, with sort of looking for examples of bias that, that, that were making revealing themselves in my choice of words.
KS (18:07):
And breeze Harper is one of the people who I worked with as a, as a, as a bias busters, as well as a number of others. And she was incredibly helpful to me to, to help me understand where I was going wrong. So to help me identify problems before the book got published, which was really important to me, sometimes this is called like a sensitivity read, but I really object to that term because it wasn’t really just about sensitivity. It was I did not want to harm people. I did not want to do harm to people with the words that I chose. So I’ll give you an example of one of the things
RV (18:47):
That, and that is the definition of bias you, that you gave earlier. It’s like, I’m not meaning to do harm, but it kind of happens anyways. Yeah. Yeah.
KS (18:56):
My intentions don’t really matter. My impact does. And and so, so one of the, one of the words that, well, one of the things that happened actually in this, I think happens to a lot of people. So I’ll share this breeze flagged about nine words that I tended to use that were problematic nine. And my instinct, my first instinct was I like God, no word of English. Language is saying, which is ridiculous. Right. But I think a lot of people. So anyway, one of one thing I would recommend to people is that you try to quantify your biases. Like there were nine words I needed to change, and they’re hundreds of thousands of words in the English language. So it was not that big of a deal really. And one of the words in particular that you flagged as I tend to use the word, see when, what I mean is notice or understand.
KS (19:45):
And so this is called abelist language. I’m sort of, I’m sort of a S because the implication, the UN, the unintentional implication is that if someone is blind, they don’t notice or understand. And of course that’s false. I know that’s, I don’t mean that, but that, that’s kind of the way a sloppy metaphor slop while I call them soppy sight metaphors. And I care about this, and I care about it because I believe words matter and I’m a writer. And so I should care about words. And I also cared about it because another one of the people who was helping me to edit the book is a guy named Zach shore. Who’s a historian who’s blind. And so the last thing in the world I wanted to do was to, to use the language that would, that would harm Zach and people like SAC and other blind people in some kind of way. So, because I care about Zach and also because I wanted to use better language, I thought I had fixed this problem that I had. And and, and, but I decided to do a quick search right before I sent the bark to my editor. And I had used sloppy site metaphors, guess how many times? In a 350 page book?
RV (21:02):
I mean, I don’t know, 25,
KS (21:04):
99 times, 99 times. A lot of times. So, so it is, it’s difficult to become aware of your biases and I believe we need, this is why I think it’s so important to flag bias publicly, too, to say bias alert to have these bias interrupters, because only when, when they get our biases get interrupted repeatedly, do we begin to change our thought patterns around them? So I think that’s really, so I really, that’s a, long-winded answer to your question
RV (21:40):
Though. Social plaster. Yeah. But social media kind of serves is, is more and more serving in that way. Right? Like people are speaking up very clearly when they think you have said something or done something wrong. So the let’s talk about the response part of it for a second. Cause I think that’s really, like you said, like the, I think my default, whether it’s in a business boardroom or if it’s at a family Thanksgiving, or if it’s on social media, my, my initial feedback, my initial response is probably the same to reject, denied, dilute Dodge, you know, defend whatever, you know, variation you want to use of that. And I, and I think, you know, so many of the events that have happened, particularly in the last year, I feel like have at least opened up a number of people to go, you know what? I want to get better at this. I want to, I I’m open to the idea that maybe I do have some biases. Maybe I even have some prejudices that I’m not aware of and I’m wanting to be open to it. So when it comes to us, how should we receive it? Yeah.
KS (22:56):
It is one of the best, one of the best things I’ve ever heard about this is a podcast by Bernay Brown about shame. And she said and she, she, she offered this podcast shortly after the murder of George Floyd. And she said so often, and she said, I’m speaking to my white audience here. She said, so often when we get feedback that we’ve said something or done something that’s racially biased, or even prejudiced, we feel shame. And she encourages people to like notice in your body where you feel shame. Like, I feel it in the back of my knees, the same place. I feel like if I get too close to the edge of a high drop, I feel afraid, you know, it’s a physical feeling. And when you feel ashamed, you learn how to calm. You’re having a fight or flight response. And we rarely respond in the way that we want to spot respond and we’re having a fight or flight response.
KS (23:54):
So you gotta learn how to calm yourself down. So the first thing is calm down, like take a few deep breaths, walk away, don’t respond immediately, walk away from Twitter or wherever you are. And then even if the person, I think there’s her point Bernay Brown’s point was that there’s a giant difference between feeling ashamed and being shamed. So very often the person is giving you some feedback that is perfectly reasonable. And so you want to make sure that you respond to that reasonable feedback with a reasonable response. So try to stay open to the feedback, but even if, and this is true of any kind of criticism don’t criticize the criticism, when someone is offering you some criticism, try to look for the gold in it, treat it even, even if it’s not perfectly delivered. And so, and this is something I’ve found over and over again, when I’ve gotten, I got feedback, it was couple years ago.
KS (24:50):
Now I tweeted something and I used the word crazy and enable list way. And I didn’t w what I really meant was irrational, you know, and somebody pointed out that it was, it was unfair to to people who struggled with mental illness, for me to use a sloppy soppy metaphor. And, and I really appreciated that. They said it very nicely. They, they sent me a link to an article that I read that was really helpful. And so I said, thank you. And then I retweeted it so that others could avoid making the same mistake. And there, I got some trollish response, you know? Oh, everybody’s over-sensitive. And so now all of a sudden, I’m in the position of having to explain to folks why it’s, it’s worth listening to this, to this kind of feedback. So I think that’s really important is, is being open to the feedback, even if the feedback is, especially if it’s well-delivered, but even when it’s not well delivered.
KS (25:56):
So I think social media kind of, it kind of lends itself to moral grandstanding. And so, so people are likely to, to call you some terrible name and if you can, and those, and this has happened to me over and over again. If you can say, if you can find like the 5% of what you can agree with and, and, and state that rather than going fighting and attack with another attack, it’s incredible to me what good conversations you can have with people, how you can actually turn them around, even on social media, but don’t give in to this moral grandstanding. Don’t play
RV (26:37):
That game. Well, it’s funny too. And I, you know, you said don’t criticize the criticism, which is really good. What I find myself doing is I not only criticized the criticism, I criticized the criticizer, so they attack me and I go, well, yeah, I might’ve done this, but only because you, yeah, you did this. And it, it just becomes this really negative spiral. Yeah. Navy seals have this thing called arousal response, which is like, you know, there’s a stimulus and it’s like, don’t just react to the stimulus, like process it for a second. And it’s, it’s such a, it’s like an emotional discipline or like a mental mental discipline. Yeah. So I think you know, on, on the, on the topic, you know, in the space of this, is there any sort of advice or wisdom or counsel specifically that you would give additionally to people who are out there, you know, that are messengers, they’re communicating you know, these are the content creators of, of the world that are listening here and going, is there anything that we can do to kind of like I guess just be aware of this and drive more towards fairness and be sort of sensitive to, I mean, I think you’ve used some really hyper, granular examples with you.
RV (28:05):
That would be, I think you, you know, you could, you could argue are overly sensitive or certainly being very hypersensitive. I mean, do you think, do you think that all content creators should be that way or, you know, or any other kind of like last wisdom you would leave with us?
KS (28:23):
I think you w you want to be aware of the impact that your words have on others. I think that whenever you are writing something or offering a podcast, or even just tweeting words, matter words really matter. And if you’re going to communicate with other people, you need to understand the impact of your word. So let’s imagine that you were accidentally stepping on someone’s toe and someone said, Hey, you’re on my toe. You wouldn’t stand there and continue to stand on their toe and say, don’t be so sensitive or wear steel-toed boots, or I didn’t mean to stand out. You would just get off their toe. And I think if you can kind of use that metaphor, that metaphor, that can be helpful. Another thing that I would say is when you notice bias, use an ice statement, and I statement invites someone in to understand things from your perspective, when you notice prejudice and you don’t necessarily want to have a big debate, because people have a right to believe, whatever they want to blame, but they don’t have a right to impose those beliefs on others.
KS (29:29):
And so when you, when you notice prejudice, when you notice an actual prejudice where somebody is saying something and meaning it, I think in it statement is much more effective. And then it statement can appeal to law. It is illegal to, it can appeal to common sense. It’s ridiculous too, but use that it statement to demarcate that boundary between one person’s freedom to believe whatever they want, but another person’s freedom not to have that belief imposed upon them. And then when it’s bullying, you want to use a use statement, sort of which pushes the other person away. You can’t talk to me like that, or what’s going on for you here. If that feels like it’s going to escalate. My daughter actually explained this to me in third grade, she was getting bullied. And I suggested to her that she, that she used an I statement.

Ep 177: Lessons in Personal Branding from the Ziglar Family with Tom Ziglar | Recap Episode

Welcome back to the influential personal brand podcast. Special recap edition joined today by AJ and we are breaking down an important family to us, the Ziglar family. If we got a chance, if you didn’t get a chance to make sure you listen to the interview that we did with Tom Ziglar, of course, Zig Ziglar, son, and Zig had a massive impact on our life and our early career. And so it was an honor to reconnect with Tom and see what they are up to. AJ and I are going to share with you some of our biggest takeaways from the episode. So why don’t you kick us off?

I think, I think one of my biggest takeaways was just really interesting quotes that Tom shared that was one of zigs old quotes. And I think he even said it was from the seventies or eighties, an older quote, but I thought it was really relevant for the, the time and space that we live in right now. And the quote was if you pursue standard of living, you will likely, never have a better quality of life. But if you pursue a better quality of life, the standard of living will always go up. And I thought that was really good and timely. Just in the, the season that so many of us are in and our businesses are in, and there’s been a lot of economic change and family change and business change and virtual and just all the things. And I just I was listening to radio station a couple of days ago and they were sharing that HR department’s number one concern right now are there people’s mental health and wellbeing.

It’s not retention, it’s not recruiting it’s, it’s actually employee mental health and wellness. And it was timely because I had heard that on a radio interview. And then this interview with Tom was almost back to back and I kind of just thought, Oh, that’s the universe going? Ding, ding, ding, connect the dots here of what are you in pursuit of? What are you in pursuit of? And I just thought it was really good to kind of like take a step back. And as we get into this recap to settle in of like, Whoa, what I am I in pursuit of and where does my own quality of life fit when it comes to what I’m working forwards working towards and why am I working towards it? So it was a little bit off interview topic, but for whatever reason, I kind of just even pause the interview and kind of sat with that for a moment of going, I know the rest of the interview, isn’t going to be talking about this, but this really simple quote really stuck out to me of just taking a moment of going, am I in pursuit of something for the wrong reasons?

And where does the quality, where does my quality of life come into the equation of what I’m working towards? Or is that even a factor? So I kind of off script there, but that was my very first and probably most important takeaway, not from just the interview, but probably my whole week.

I mean, that, that it was for me too. That was, that was one of my big, my big takeaways. And just this idea that the quality of your life directly influences also the quality of your work. And I think it’s like, you know, that that idea in school, that companies I think are waking up to that. I mean, that’s, I think one of, one of the good things that have come out of the recent time is going, it’s not only the right thing to just care about the quality of life of the people who are working in the business. It also is a good thing for the health of the business. Like the financial health of the success is when you have happier people, they do better work. So if you can’t get yourself to come around to it, you know, if you’re an employer just because you’re good natured is, is to make that connection.

And, and I think it, it hit me even more personally as going like, Oh, wow, where is the quality of my life? And am I focused on that? As much as the quality of work. And if I allow myself to really create the quality of life and focus on that, that the quality of work will increase as, as a by-product and the standard of living and just everything. And, and I think, I feel like there is this trend in the world right now, where people are in some ways, in some ways, letting go a little bit of like the money in the hustle and the, you know, the achievement and starting to wake up more to just like happiness and joy and fulfillment. Although there’s plenty of that other stuff that we’re all, we’re all hanging on to, it’s hard wired into our brains, but, and it was, that was my first takeaway too.

That was really good. So my second thing that kind of stuck out to me as I love this, and he was talking about his own identity. Tom was talking about his own identity and correlation to such a publicly and widely positively known reputation there. You need to get your own points. These are my points. And he said, he said something I had to realize is that, although I was speaking through and for my father’s legacy on principles and values, that my dad Zig was a one of a kind and I’m not him. And he’s not me. And I don’t speak like him and think like him, I don’t motivate like him, I don’t inspire him, but that’s okay. Is that people still wanted zigs principles and values and ideas, but they wanted them in the own way that Tom could deliver them.

Right. And I think that was really kind of an aha moment for so many of us is what are we trying to be like? That is not who we are just because we think that’s what other people want. Not because that’s what they told us they want. It’s just because that’s what we think they want. And so, as Tom was going through this story of how he really had to learn that the gift of his was not his own, but he had his own gifts and that people still wanted to learn from him and his own way. And he didn’t have to be Zig or be like Zig in order to complete that, you know, cycle there. And it just made me think of how often so many of the clients that we work with and people that we talk to, and even us, right, our own family, friends, our own team that we live in this idea of a I’m going to be this way, because I think that’s what my audience would like.

Like Rory actually heard this again on the radio, in the car lot here lately. Apparently the other thing I was going to say but one third of Americans actually decide where they’re going to vacation based on how that location will look on social media as they take pictures and kind of shared that. And I was like, well, that’s funny, wait, that’s not funny. Funny, not funny because it’s, it’s a, it’s really unfortunate that we do things. We live our life thinking that this is what other people want from us without ever living into our own uniqueness and originality. And quite honestly forget that, like, we don’t even do things for ourselves anymore just to impress, please show others on what we’re doing versus is that really what we want. And so anyways, it was a great part of the interview. It was short and sweet, but also very poignant in the fact of man, how many of us are living in the shadow of other people’s expectations?

When indeed no one, they didn’t, they don’t even want that from you. They want what, you’re not giving them, but you’re not giving it to them because you don’t think that’s what they want. So I just thought it was very I don’t know, humbling in a way of going, wow, have you ever even thought, are you trying to be someone that you’re not to impress people that actually want the real you, not the fake you? And it was a, I think it was just a really good part of the interview of this aha moment that so many of us relate to.

Yeah, I was pro that was profound. I mean, I I’ve I wrote, I wrote down when he said, dad always told us that his gift is not our gift and that like, I mean, that gave me chills because I was going what an important lesson for Zig to pass on. And also for everyone to know, like the way he said it too is so true is like Zig had plenty of weaknesses, just like anyone else does that are Tom’s strengths. And who are we trying to be like, that is not us. That is preventing us or disallowing us from, from being us. And I think that happens all the time. Right? We’re trying to emulate somebody or something, some set of people versus what you said, just settling in and receiving the idea that what want from us is to just be us. I, I love Sally Hogshead kind of talks about this, where she says, you don’t have to become more fascinating. You have to just become more of who you already are. And as a by-product of that, you’ll be fascinating. But when we try to become like everyone else, then we, you know, we, we become bland and and we’re not living in our, in our gifts. And that, that was powerful, powerful moment. That was really cool.

Yeah. So apparently we have the exact same takeaways. Maybe the third one will be different. We’ll say that the third one, I thought wasn’t necessarily a point in the interview. It was the interview as a whole. And we talk a lot about this and we’ve had several guests on the show over the last several months that have also talked about how do you take one existing piece of content and build an empire? And it’s not just a book or just a course or just us speaking or justice, but it’s like, how do you take a piece of content or in the Ziglar, Ziglar family, lots of pieces and pieces of content. But you don’t have to have thousands of pieces of content to build a very large production engine of business. You can build a big business off of one set of curriculum. And, you know, I could give you dozens of people who have done this, but one piece of content can be a book and a speech, and a course and shared on a podcast and turned into a coaching program and then a training program and then a consulting program, and then a certification program or a train the trainer program.

It’s like, the list goes on and on and on off of one set of content, it’s like, you don’t need 35 different pieces of content to build a very big business that’s multifaceted. And I think so often people get consumed with, in order to do a new thing. I have to have new content and what Zig the kind of Zig vault of content and what Tom is doing with that is a great example of no, we’re not necessarily trying to create brand new content. We’re repurposing content that has been loved and adored around the world and giving it to people in new ways. Smart and really good. So again, it was just the whole interview as a whole of reminding all of us. You don’t have to have lots of pieces of content to have lots of different business models.

Yeah, that’s a really good reminder. It’s another example of like, when we talk about she hands wall, where if you have diluted focus, you get diluted results. And I think people are always like off chasing the next content. And sometimes I think in a lot of cases, you’re more likely to make more money by serving your existing audience in a deeper way versus creating a new thing for a new audience. And so that’s a good reminder. For me, my third takeaway that I wrote down was, was just again, it wasn’t so much related to personal branding except for like being an entrepreneur. When Tom said, you know, a great leader is more focused on the growth of their people than the results from their people. It’s kind of tied back into that quality of life thing that it was just like, if you really can invest in people and care about people and build them and provide for them and coach them that, you know, that is, that is how you get the most out of them, not by just coming at them and pressuring them to get the most out of them and, you know, just building those relationships and investing in people and, and, and believing in them.

And I think that’s part of their shared legacy. Definitely, as I say, that’s very Ziglar, Ziglar, Ziglar philosophies. Yes. Yeah, absolutely. So well, there you go, a great chance to sit down with legendary family and Tom is such a great guy. We’re excited to see how that brand is doing and the new era and it’s transitioning and it’s it’s really, really cool. And anyways, it’s honor for us to get, to bring conversations like that to you and an honor to us that you would keep coming back to listen to them. So thanks for being here. We’ll catch you next time.