Category: BRANDING

Ep 166: How to Create a Viral TEDx Talk with Jennifer Cohen

Hey brand builder Rory Vaden here. Thank you so much for tuning in to listen to this interview. We are so excited to bring you this information and wanted to let you know that, Hey, there’s no sales pitch coming from anything that we do with this is all our value add to you and the community. However, if you are somebody who is looking for specific strategies on how to build and monetize your personal brand, we would love to talk to you and we offer a free call to everyone that’s interested in getting to know us and is willing to give us a chance to get to know them and share a little bit about what we do. So if you’re interested in taking us up on a free strategy call, you can do that at brand builders, group.com/summit call brand builders, group.com/summit. Call. Hope to talk to you soon on with the show.

You know, nothing fires me up more than when somebody that we know that is a friend. And then also someone who is a client succeeds in a really big way. I mean, that is why we started brand builders group is we just, there’s no amount of money. There’s no amount of recognition that gives you the satisfaction that you get when you watch someone else succeed and you help them. And that’s why I’m excited for you to hear the story of Jennifer Cohen. Now, Jennifer is a, here’s why we’re on the show. What we’re going to talk about is she hired us about a year and some change ago to help her create a vision that she had for a Ted talk that Ted talk has now gone viral. It has millions of views. It is actually featured on ted.com, which is incredible and very rare.

And so we’re going to talk about how did she do that? What was the story? But you know, she is a very successful personal brand really, and, and was long before she met us. I mean, she’s been featured on good morning, America and entrepreneur. She, in fact, she hosts a podcast called habits and hustle all in partnership with entrepreneur and she’s interviewing Dr. Oz and Matthew McConaughey and Tony Robbins. And she’s also an author. She has several books. One of my favorite titles that she’s got is called strong as the new skinny which she released a few years ago. But she’s also a successful entrepreneur and she’s done a lot of things in the digital space. She is most proud of launching the good human foundation and some of her non profit work, which hosts an annual it’s called babes for boobs bachelor auction, supporting breast cancer research and treatment. So she’s just super cool. And we want to hear the story of what she’d been up to over the last year, because, and, and this is a bone I have to pick with you, Jennifer. You didn’t tell me how well the Ted talk went. I saw it on YouTube and I was like, what the, what? Like what, like, how did you not tell us? So anyways, welcome to the show.

You’re right. You have a boat to pick and, and a well-deserved bone to pick. Actually I have to say you know, why I was so busy that I didn’t have the everyday of, I told you, when you texted me, I was like, Oh my God. Like, thank God. Because for like Mo like for like five weeks, probably I was like, Oh my God, I got it. I got a contact. Or I got a text where I got a call Rory. And like, I just one day bled into another. And I, I know I’m I was,

And you are a ma I mean, you’re, you’re momming. You got, you know, kids. So that’s, that’s also like a whole thing that you’re doing all that.

Exactly. I’m trying to do everything. And like, with two kids it’s not easy. And they’re also unschool virtually right now. So that whole layer of stuff as well, right. With the pandemic. So my apologies though, for sure.

Yeah. Well, anyways, you’re forgiven because this is such a, such a great thing. And you know, and obviously you are an author and you’re a speaker and stuff, but it’s, it’s also like, you know, there’s always a part of you. That’s like, is the stuff we’re teaching, does it actually work? Like, would it actually help? And, you know, to see someone that you work with have, have the kind of result that you did. And so I, it’s just really, really exciting. We’re so proud of you, which you are already know. So what, tell us the story, like, how did it ha how did you get the Ted talk? How did it all happen?

Okay, so really, I mean, you know, I’ll just start from the fact that I, so they actually approached me. So a Ted person reached out to me and they asked me if I’d be interested in like doing a Ted talk, which of course I jumped at the chance then of course, you know, how I met you is through a friend of mine who hired you to do something for his stuff. And I was, you know, my friend wanted me to come along to Nashville and, you know, sit there and like hear and listen to everything. And quite frankly, I was really blown away by how you kind of your, your approach and how good you are at what you do that that’s when I asked you afterwards, I’m like, can you help me carve out? So this is thing, like I wanted you to help me carve out or kind of take the ideas and the nuggets of information that was in my brain, and then create something and execute on those messages in a, in a way that would resonate.

And that was streamlined. So like, I think a lot of times people have a lot of good content. They have great ideas, but they don’t know how to like put them in a place or they don’t know how to like display it in a way that is succinct and organized. So you helped me with that. Like, you guys helped me, you especially helped me with that organization, creating, you know, taking what I had and creating soundbites that like really landed on people really well. And what’s really funny is what you don’t know. Cause I haven’t spoken to you about this is that, you know, when I did this, when I did the talk so many, like so many, like other things were happening that first of all, there was a baby crying, which then threw me off, which then, you know, which made me kind of, I ended up like what we actually created together.

I thought was even way better than what I actually executed because right away that baby threw me off. And so I like missed a chunk of really good information at the beginning. And then towards like the middle towards the end, I had another really big chunk that really like drove my messages home and the guy working the slides made a mistake and didn’t put the right slides up. So it threw me off again. So I missed it check. Yes. So I missed another chunk and I was like, Oh my God. Because when I practiced, it was like really strong. It was tight. It was strong. I was like, Oh my God, this was really good. I was really, I was really proud of us. Let me say, and then when those things out of my control that was complete, like external forces that I really had nothing to do with, through my, you know, cause I’m also, by the way, I was super nervous. Like let’s like not, I mean, it’s a very,

Of course. I mean, yeah, like it’s a big opportunity and they’ll know like, so my Ted talk, I was turned down by 27 different Ted organizations. I think I told you that I was actively prospecting to try to get one. And then I finally got one Douglasville who only took me because they were so small and it was their first year. I don’t even think they wanted me, but they’re like fine. We need somebody and, and contrast this with your experience. But either way, like when you get that opportunity, I mean the Ted stages at this point, it’s sacred. It’s like, this can change your life. This can change your life. So I did not know this. So, so this is a big moment. You’ve prepared all of this. Like you spent time and money working up to this and then a baby’s crying. And then the dude in the back messed up your slides, freaking out.

The other part that you don’t know also why I was like, I was even extra freaked out about the baby was when I went out. I said, like I said, the first sentence. And then they’re like, Oh wait can you go back? Something was wrong with the sound we can’t really in the back. We got, I started again. So I was like, are you serious? So like I had to go and do that again. So I was like, Oh my gosh. So when I got off the stage, my husband was with me, whatever. And I was like really kind of upset. Like I was like, Oh my God. Like that was something that I spent a lot of time on money on. And it was really good. Like there, the chunks that I didn’t talk about were like, I thought really good. And I was really bummed.

So then when all of this happened, like I think out of the gate, it did fairly well, like right off the bat, I got like a hundred thousand views maybe. And then like, did you promote it? Like, no, I did nothing. Like, nah, I still haven’t done a thing, not a thing. So we should talk about that. Cause we could throw fuel on the fire know, trust me. I know. Cause like, I’ll tell you about that after. So like not, and then I’m like, Oh, this isn’t true. But then it kind of stagnated at like a hundred thousand. I was like, all right, whatever. And then like, I don’t know, like a few months ago or four months ago or whatever, is that a one 50? And I was like, all right, whatever then. And I forgot to check it. Like I was just not really paying attention.

And then one day, like three months ago, maybe four months ago it went to 200. And then I started noticing that at 200, I started to get a lot of like DMS and like different emails. People were sending me to info at Jennifer Cohen. Right. And then from 200, it jumped to like every day it was like climbing 20,000 more, 20,000 more, 20,000 more. And then next thing you know, I was like at the million and then it went to a million, one, a million, two, and millions. And like, I was like, I had no idea like how this happened because everyone was like, are you promoting this? What are you doing? I’m like, honestly I have no idea even how to promote this thing. And like, like the amount of incoming, thousands of DMS, thousands of emails, like, so now it’s, it’s hitting like I think on YouTube alone, I think it’s going to, it’s going to be at 2 million problems, like looking at my wife, like probably in a week maybe cause it’s at one nine ish or something like that. But like, yeah, you’re going to pass me, which me off.

That’s like, not even a question. I mean, let’s just say it right now. It’s going to happen. I mean also the engagement, if you look at the engagement or the comments crazy like, hi. So I think what ha what I find interesting is that I think people are what they liked about. It were all the things that I wasn’t so crazy for, which was the fact that there was like a a rawness to it. It wasn’t perfect. It was kinda like disheveled a little bit. And like, you know, it was like, it wasn’t, I wasn’t, I wasn’t. So polished was, I think that people actually were like, you know what, she’s, it’s it kind of like makes them feel there’s like, I’m less intimidated that like resonated a little bit. And the messaging, I think overall the content people really were inspired by what the content was. And so, yeah. So thank you for letting like helping me put it together and you know, you’re you’re, you guys are really good at what you do. So,

You know, th thank you for that. I mean, that it’s, it really is just fulfilling and exciting by the way. So we need to tell people that the, the name, the name of the talk is how to get anything you want. Is that

The secret to getting anything you want?

Yeah. The secret to getting anything you want. So at the time of this recording, it’s just like South of 2 million and climbing it in less than a year. And it’s, you know, this is changing, you’re changing. This is changing your life. And I think to what you said, many of the people who come to us struggle with exactly what you were struggling with, which is like, I have all these things I want to say and all these different facets. And it was just about focusing it and finding this, you know, the uniqueness, finding the through line all the way down to boldness and then turning, you know, figuring out what problem does that solve? What is your message in one sentence, and then building a technique around it this, this framework. So the, are you tell, tell us about, tell us about that process. Like how much, like, how did that help you or what do you, what do you remember about doing that work? Cause that’s, that was hard work that that’s harder work than even coming up with the word,

Not for you. It’s not, I mean, you’re just good at that stuff. Like what, you know, what it is. I find that everyone has some, a skill and something that they’re good at. Right. And that’s just so happens to be what you’re really good at. You’re able to take a lot of like jumbled information and like really, really, really organize it and streamline it to make, to be succinct. So the process was quite easy actually. I mean, like I said, I think that you’re just naturally gifted at this. I said this to you too. Like, I think you’re just naturally gifted at like, hearing all the verbal, you know, diarrhea and blahblahblahblahblah and then making and like, and then making it, like making it into something that’s actually coherent. Right. Cause I knew that it, I knew what my key points were and I think what view I said, I want, I knew that it was about asking for what you want being fooled going after it, all, all of that stuff. And like, and the key story, which was like a big story. I don’t know if you want to ruin it or talk about it here, but you know of that being a pivotal moment in my life. Yeah.

You talking about the Keanu Reeves store. Yeah. We’re not going to tell the whole story, but they can go watch the talk if you want to see. But I think, you know, like the process that we take people through, which, which, you know, and you also had the benefit of going through with Darren, like big shout out to Darren Prince, like much love to you, buddy, miss you connect, connect us. You had the benefit of going through that experience with him. And so you got to like work it on someone else and then apply it to yourself. But

Why saw what you did with him and this not to him. I wanted to interject because you know, it’s very hard. I think when it’s a very saturated and very claustrophobic environment right now with social media and everybody trying to build a brand, I feel that’s become like a very big thing right now. And it’s very hard to like stand out right when everyone’s kind of saying generally the same thing. So it’s super important. I think now even more than ever is to like really find that like little niche, that little nugget that sets you apart from everybody else. And when I sat with you in that room with dare and doing it, but a bunch of other people with all those pieces of paper on the wall and like really like that whole I don’t, what do you call that when you,

Yeah. So, so that’s called a brand strategy day, which is, you know, it’s the most expensive way for people to do business with us to do that. But we, but we, we take people through that same day for that, obviously. Well, yeah, that was, we were working on Darren’s stuff that day, but the, the same, we take people through the same process in our events and through one-on-one coaching, like the same questions, the brand DNA helix and all this stuff. But anyways, so what we did with you is a brand strategy day. Most of our clients experience that through one of our events, which are like 20, 30 people. And we take, we take them through all the same exercises and all the same stuff. It’s just not one-on-one.

Yeah. And it’s, and like I said, like, I, I, what I saw was you took all this information that was generally just good ideas or ideas. And then you like created like some type of like meat on the bone to kind of disseminate it. Right. Which people I think over underestimate how hard that is. I mean, it’s very hard to do it. That’s what I’m saying. That I think that there’s like very much a skill in that. Right. Cause you know, it’s that being able to take an idea in your brain someone’s brain and then figuring out a way to create a brand and structure around that is very difficult. And so I sat there for it the whole day and I was like, wow, I could not believe where we were from walking in to when we left. Like it was a massive difference in messaging.

Well I love hearing that. Thank you. And I, you know, for you, we identified your uniqueness as boldness and that’s the first thing is to really what we call find your unique uniqueness so that you can exploit it in the service of others, which is a quote from Larry. Winget one of, one of my mentors that I had heard. And once we narrow that down for you, was that boldness was, it was what it was about. And then the message, the one sentence statement or command and instruction you want people to do, which for you was chase what you want or ask for what you want. Don’t just take what you can get. And so when I saw your Ted talk and I was like, what a Whoa, and then I and then I watched it and I was like, gosh, I wonder how closely you delivered it.

And I was like, you followed it to a T and it was so clear. And and so we, we create that uniqueness. And then, like you say, we, we take people through in captivating content, the modular content method of building it into a story and points these, you know, the catchphrases or the sound bites, as you say, and extrapolating the signature story, but you stayed so on point and to what you’re talking about, the problem is noise. And what cuts through the noise is that precision level of clarity of knowing in one sentence and then building the framework around it with the 10%. So, so we’ve you, then we, we created that little formula, which was which is something you do in your real life called the 10% target. Can you, can you like walk us through the 10% target? Cause this is like good for everybody.

Well, the 10% target is making 10 attempts at what you want in life. Right. So and what we talk about not to give away the whole Ted talk, but

We’ll watch it. We’ll put a link to it too, like in the show notes so people can go, go click on it. Yeah,

Absolutely. But I mean, the truth of the matter is, and this is actually true. Most people don’t even go after what they want. One time, let alone two or three times. So the idea behind the 10% target is making 10 attempts and failing 90% of the time. And again, you know, what’s funny. It’s like, it’s what you it’s, it’s not so much like what you say, it’s how you say it. That makes it resonate and hit somebody in a certain way. And what I found so interesting is the way that we said it really hit people in a way that wanted them to take action, which you know why, which is why I think that it became very sharable, right? Repeat viral, right. People started sharing it with their friends call. You know, I can’t tell you how many times people like are calling me or what not calling, but DM-ing and emailing me that calls people don’t get nobody calls anyway, nobody calls. But like, Oh my God, because of this, I did X or because of this, I’m going to do X, right. That actionable item that makes people actually go from watching something passively to actually doing which I think I’m very, I’m very proud of it actually for that reason.

I mean, it’s so good. And that’s where, you know, and that’s where it’s like, you know, we, we always have to step back and go, we can’t take credit for that. Like that was, those are your ideas. All we’re helping do is pull it out of you and sharpen it and package it and like position it. But you know, when we try to teach people how to do this, you know, we’re always telling them the best marketing in the world is a changed life. It’s not a fancy graphic. It’s not the perfect words on a page. It’s not beautifully edit video. The best marketing in the world is a changed life. When you have a clear message and you deliver a clear behavior, then someone can hear it because it’s so clear and then they do it and then it changes their life. And then they tell everybody and their actions tell everyone because their life changes and people go, what are you doing?

Why did you do that? How did you do that? And they go, Oh, you know, I watched this talk to help, you know, help me just be more confident asking for what I want. And it’s, it’s, you know, like you said too, it’s, it’s simple truths. It’s, it’s like, we’re all saying variations of the same thing, but the way you say it with such precision and clarity and it just like it just so much, it made me so happy. And then, you know, even for me as a, as a viewer, I’m just delighted, even though I, you know, I know what’s coming, but for me to sit, like, I’m like, Oh yeah, here’s the Keanu Reeves story. And here she’s introducing the problem. And here comes your uniqueness and here comes your message and your framework and, and you, it was delightful to see you execute, but then it was just so wonderful as the receiver to just be like, I get sucked away into your message of going, man, I need to be, I need to be more bold. Like I need to do this. And it’s just so, so, so clear and simple.

Well, thank you. I mean, and yes, I, I agree and I appreciate it and I, I thank you for that, but I think that you’re right. The clarity is what, how it hits on, right. That’s the difference between being a success or, or not being right. A success, right. Because it’s the clarity of how you’re able to bridge your message to other people.

Yeah. That’s a great way of, of, of saying it, it, that is like the bridge, that connection between you and other people is kind of how, how clear can you say? Well all right, well, I, this has flown by, like I knew I knew it would, but we had to share this story. Where do you want people to go? If you want them to learn about you and we’ll put a link to the Ted talk again, so that they can, that they can get at the secret to getting anything you want in life is the name of the talk. And which, by the way, passes our title tests, where we, we are very, we have very structured formulas for titles, which you also, you know, we’re so humble and malleable to learning, especially being as successful as you were, you know, doing lots of things in life before we ever found you, you were such a great, you know, willing to just take input. So we’ll put a link to the Ted talk, but anyways, where else do you want people to go to, to learn about you connect up?

You can go to Instagram, which is the real Jen cohen.com. One N J E N C O H T N. The real Jen Cohen. They can go to my website, Jennifer cohen.com, I think that’s.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, and, and this is, so would you say this has really changed your life? I mean, have you, you’ve seen, you know, like change your business, change your business.

It’s given, it’s giving me more work if that’s what you’re asking in the sense that like, you know, I was not really focusing so much on my own brand is much beef at all, but now this is kind of kicking me in the butt and I have like a lot of different opportunities when it comes to my own personal ground. And I’m also, I didn’t, I’m writing a book right now based on the talk.

Did you get, did you, do you already have a publisher for it?

Well, no. I have like a couple, I’m not, I’m going to be using a difference. I’m actually just signed with an agent actually a couple of weeks ago. And I don’t have a deal yet. I’m not, I had a deal to be honest with you, but now I’m redoing it. So yeah, I’ll, I’ll, I’ll report back in about three weeks or a month.

Yeah. Well, let’s wait. We need to talk more both about what you can do to throw fuel on this organic fire. And then also talk about leveraging this into a book. So be on the lookout for that y’all, but we’ll put a link to Jennifer cohen.com. You could check out the real Jed co and on the Insta. And Jen is just, I mean, congratulations, I it’s inspiring. And I, and I hope that people listening are inspired because it shows that it’s like, it’s real. And if you, if you do it and you’re humble and you work hard and you do the right things and you give value, like it, it pays off and you’re, you’re, you’re literally impacting millions of lives and just job well done.

Thank you. And a job well done to you. If anyone’s listening to this and you know, they’re, they’re on the fence about you guys for you or the company to help them this should be a huge, a huge push in that direction because quite, and I will say this quite frankly, and I meet a lot of people. I live in Los Angeles and you know, everybody and their dog are, are, are pitching and approaching me and everyone around who say they do this. And you really are very talented and I wouldn’t hire anyone except you.

Well, thanks, Jim. We wish you all the best stay tuned. And we’ll, we’ll, we’ll look forward to following your journey be well, thank you.

Ep 162: How to Produce and Promote Your Self Published Book with Honorée Corder

RV: (00:09)

Hey brand builder Rory Vaden here. Thank you so much for tuning in to listen to this interview. We are so excited to bring you this information and wanted to let you know that, Hey, there’s no sales pitch coming from anything that we do with this is all our value add to you and the community. However, if you are somebody who is looking for specific strategies on how to build and monetize your personal brand, we would love to talk to you and we offer a free call to everyone that’s interested in getting to know us and is willing to give us a chance to get to know them and share a little bit about what we do. So if you’re interested in taking us up on a free strategy call, you can do that at brand builders, group.com/summit call brand builders, group.com/summit. Call, hope to talk to you soon on with the show

RV: (01:06)

Writing and getting books published and written and distributed and marketed properly is one of the biggest pain points that so many of you have. We know that and over the years, I’ve had an opportunity to interface with a number of different people who have different, you know, magical superpowers in the book, writing and publishing space. And today I’m going to introduce you to one of my favorites. She’s a longtime friend of mine. Her name is honoree a quarter and honoree, a first of all, she is worked very closely with one of my dear, dear friend, two of my dear, dear friends of Hal Elrod which many of you probably know she helped Hal turn the miracle morning into a whole book series. Honoree has written more than 50 books and not just with Hal, but lots of people, Phil Hellmuth, who was the world series of poker champion.

RV: (02:00)

Also one of our other dear friends, John Ruhlin and his book Giftology who we just absolutely adore John we’ve had him of course, on the show. And she just works as a strategic book coach to writers. And also, I would say a publishing specialist specifically for people who want to self publish and maintain all the ownership and the control and, and the rights, but to do it in a way that it looks and acts and feels and operates like a traditionally published book. So anyway, she just recently moved to Nashville. Well, not that recently, but a little bit recently and we reconnected and had to bring her to you. You’re going to love her honor, a welcome to the show. Hey, Hey, good to be with you. All right. My friend. So I want to start with the question of the, the, the writing process. Okay. So you’ve written 50 books. You’ve coached people through this. You’re teaching lots of people on, on the writing process. I feel like people get stuck at the blank page. Like they go, I want to write a book. I know I got a book in me. I probably got five books in me, but then they like sit down and it’s like, it doesn’t, it doesn’t come.

HC: (03:24)

What’s that Netflix I’ll do it later.

RV: (03:29)

So what do you, what do you, think’s going on there? What do we need to know about that stage in that moment and how do we kind of get ourselves past there?

HC: (03:39)

That’s a, that’s a great question. Thank you. And there’s a lot to unpack there. I think what people get stuck on is what goes in a book. Why am I the person to write a book? Other people have already written a book like the book I’m thinking of writing. Why should I write a book? And then how am I going to write it? How did I, how am I going to know it’s any good? And then once I’m done with it, what the heck do I do with it? Who’s going to read it. What if nobody buys it? So there’s a lot of static and a lot of head noise going on and, and without a process to follow. And without some clarity that they will stand to get stuck, even if they get past that blank page.

RV: (04:21)

Yeah. So let’s talk about the mental part of it then first, because I do think that that is that sort of self limiting belief of, you know, one I’m not smart enough, I’m not good enough or more of the imposter syndrome, which is like, well, someone already wrote that book. Like, you know, I already read that book. I mean, do you find that that’s a pretty big, a pretty big part of this and how do you, how do we get ourselves beyond that moment?

HC: (04:48)

Sure. So yes, someone has probably written a book about what you have knowledge and expertise around semi-colon however, comma, right? They, there is no book written in your words, from your perspective, with your additional experience and you are the messenger that only some people can hear. And I love to use the example of like Brene Brown versus Tony Robbins in the motivational space for the people. Lots of people stand at the, at the the stage and watch Tony Robbins and think that he’s the best thing ever. And other people think he’s too big. He else’s teeth are too big, right? He’s it’s too much for me. And other people think Brene Brown is just the most wonderful thing in the world. And other people think she’s too quiet and she’s not commanding enough. Their messages are not the same. They’re similar.

(05:48)

And you could say, well, it’s motivational, I’ve been motivated. I’m done, that’s it. And yet there is that other option, which is what you bring to the table, your experience, your expertise, your knowledge, and your words, your approach, your philosophy, how you connect with people. And that is not in a book if you haven’t written it. So I like to get people past that, well, who am I to write a book I’m not experienced enough or who cares, or there’s already a book out there contextualizing them and saying, hold on, you have something to offer. You must write a book. Right. And then helping them to figure out what goes in the book and where and why, and getting started on that process because, and let’s go to all the way to the end and you’ve been there and I’ve been there. You get that book for the first time and holding it in your hands. And you’re an author. It’s kind of the coolest thing ever. It’s worth all of the trouble.

RV: (06:45)

Yeah. Well, and, and you get the first comment from a reader or Amazon review that are like, you know, that’s, it’s so powerful. And, and I, you know, I, I do use myself as an example on this. Cause I go look, take the stairs more or less as a book that about hard work. There’s not many more on original topics that, or messages than hard work. And, and as a 20 something year old kid, when I wrote the book, I was like, you know, I, I felt like, well, what am I saying? That’s different. But it was totally from my lens. And I think the beauty of me being so young was I knew nothing else other than to write it from my lens. And I wasn’t old enough to have as much self-doubt I think as sometimes people get in their thirties and yeah, it’s you bringing you to the table, contextualizing you, no one else can do that.

HC: (07:36)

Right? No one else has your voice, your perspective, and all of the other things that make you, you, no one else can write your book. And so I think you owe it to people. I’m just going to throw it out there. You owe it to people to write your book. And I read, take the stairs. And I sent you a screenshot of all the tabs and notes and highlights of re reading the book. And I had read every other book on hard work. Yeah. Hard work is not a new philosophy, but your perspective and that phrase, Oh, I’ll take the stairs. I’ll, I’ll do the harder thing. I can do hard things. I do this hard thing. And it builds that muscle and builds on top of that. Some of that book has never left me. It’s stayed with me. So if you hadn’t been that 20 something year old kid going, all right, I’m going to write a book and you did it.

HC: (08:29)

Then all the people who benefited from it would have missed out. And so now I’m just, I’m not talking to you, right. I’m talking to your audience and the people that are listening and are thinking well, but what would I say that would be any different. It’s not necessarily that you would say something different it’s that you would say something different that you would say it in your way. And the person who would have said, why am I going to take the stairs? Why would you take the stairs when you were taking the elevator? Might hear another message, your message in a way that actually moves out and transforms their life. And you’re right. Then the thing that is even better than receiving that first book is receiving that first letter in the mail, or that first email where someone says, I read your book and it changed my life. It inspired me. I am behaving differently. I’m doing something differently. I’m believing more in myself. There, there are very few things that are more fulfilling than that.

RV: (09:22)

Yeah. That’s, that is incredible. And I, and I think another part of the fear, like, just since we’re talking about the emotional side of this, I do think there is this fear of like, well, I could pour my life into this thing and nobody’s gonna read it right. Or no, one’s gonna buy it. And then it’s almost like I have this, it’s almost like I have this public declaration that I’ve put out there that I want something to be successful. And if it’s not successful, then somehow it’s like this public reflection that, you know, my book wasn’t good enough and or something like that. And, and ironically, I think it’s, it’s it, when a book doesn’t sell, well, it is less often to do with what is written in the book and more to do with the promotional plan. And I want, you know, I know that that’s a part that you really kind of specialize in, is going okay, what are the things? So let’s say, if we get past the self doubt, we’re operating in what we would call our uniqueness, we’ll help people find their uniqueness. They create a great outline. They work with you or some, you know, somebody like you that helps them really like flush out and write it out. And, you know, we’ve got lots of people that we love to help. You’re one of them they get this book written, then what, what do they do to make sure that people find it

HC: (10:47)

Connecting the book with the reader is the $60 million question, right? How do you connect the reader to the book? And most importantly, the author and it starts actually with that blank page, with the questions that you’re going to ask yourself, when you’re putting pen to paper, the first one would be something like, where does the book fit into my business? And what is the purpose of the book in my business? What do I want the reader to do as a result of reading my book with taking the stairs, you want people to work harder, right? With you must write a book, which is my book. I want everyone to write a book. I want the right person to call me and say, I want you to help me with this process that they’re figuring out, where does the book fits into the business and where the book fits in with the author.

HC: (11:38)

And then everything else that you do actually is informed and influenced by the answers to those questions. How do people connect with you and how do they connect with you in their journey of reading the book? Do they like you more, as the book goes on and are you adding value to them? Are you helping them to solve a problem or capitalize on an opportunity or both? And then how do they, how do they come to understand if they’re the person that you could help beyond the book? And all of that is linked into the marketing

RV: (12:11)

Surgically. Even thinking beyond the book to going, let’s say I write an amazing book. I market it, I get someone to buy it. I, they actually read it. They get to the end then what? So it’s kind of like thinking about how does this direct and fit into your overall kind of business plan and like, not just your business plan, but how can you service that person at a deeper level once they’ve been through the book and how are you pointing them in that direction?

HC: (12:39)

Right? So the, the, the trick is, and there’s no trick, but the trick is right. The question that you want to answer is how do I serve the person? So they feel like in exchange for their time and money, right? The time they’re reading the book and the money they’ve spent on the book, that they are getting value, that the question of the book has been answered because you buy a non-fiction book. I read limitless by Jim quick, because I want to be limitless. So Jim had a big Hill to climb with me. I had a lot of questions about how to be limitless, and those questions were answered in the book. But at the end of the book, there were a lot of other ways for me to take my limitlessness to be even more unlimited, right. There were ways that I could connect with him.

HC: (13:27)

And those had to be built into the book too. So there were resources in the book and options for connecting with the author before someone puts pen to paper, or even while they are thinking about what those things would be, how am I going to connect with my reader? How can my reader connect with me after they’ve finished the meat of the book? What’s the next thing for them to do? What’s the next stage in our relationship? And what does that look like? And how do we connect those dots? I think we live in a great time when it used to be that an author was a person that you didn’t know where they were. You’d never, you would never hear them interviewed or talked to unless it was on the mic MacNeil, Lehrer report or something. Right. and now or Charles Cronkite, right?

HC: (14:15)

Like authors were unicorns that were inaccessible and now authors are accessible people and have to think of themselves as accessible and readers love to know their authors, authors that you like, we want to know who you are and we want to connect with you right. As readers. And so thinking about that as an author, as an aspiring authors, how can I make sure that my readers know that I’m not inaccessible or not a unicorn? And I want to be connected with, and here is who the, who the person is that I want to connect with the most.

RV: (14:47)

So let’s, let’s talk about Amazon specifically for a minute. Cause you know, I, I know most of, most of your experiences, like really kind of dominating this, the self-published world and, and helping people promote, what do people need to know about Amazon that they, like, what do authors need to know about Amazon? That we don’t know? Like what, what as a first time author is not obvious to us about Amazon, that it’s like, well, you really need to know this. Like, in order since Amazon represents, I don’t know what it is. Something like 50, 60% of all sales. I mean, maybe even more than that whatever the number is. It’s it’s a, it’s a massive percentage. What are the things you think most authors go? Oh, I didn’t realize that. I didn’t know that. I didn’t know I needed to do that. I didn’t know. I needed an update that I didn’t know. I had to like do this or that for Amazon specifically.

HC: (15:42)

Sure. Well, not UN find-able information, not information that you can’t find if you’re looking for it, but understanding how to engage Amazon as a retail partner when launching your book and marketing your book is very important. And understanding that if you know how to engage Amazon as a retailer, as a retail partner, they will serve up your book forever. If you can prove to Amazon that your book is profitable, Amazon wants to sell profitable things. If you’ve ever opened your email, or like maybe 12 times today, you’ve opened your email. And there’s a name something from Amazon that says, well, are you done reading this book? Because when you’re done reading this book, you should read this book over here. Oh, did you buy this thing? Well, people who bought this also bought that right. There is a way to engage Amazon as a retail partner so that you can have them serve up your book.

HC: (16:44)

And it’s not with ads it’s free. It’s just knowing the process, right. Of engaging Amazon in such a way that they say, well, take the stairs is a profitable book. And so we’re just going to keep selling, take the stairs. We’re just going to keep recommending, take the stairs. Honorary, read the book. And honoree is like these 1 million other people. And so we’re going to send this email to these 1 million other people that are just like honoring, because they’ve read all the same books that Andre has, but not take the stairs. So they’re going to email those people on your behalf.

RV: (17:15)

And you’re saying, you can do something, you can do something proactively as an author. What are, what are like, what’s an example? Or like, what are, what are some of those things that we go, Oh, I didn’t even realize I was supposed to do that. Or I could do that. Amazon seems like this ginormous, like faceless enterprise, like that I think is something I didn’t even think. Like, I don’t even feel that way that it was like, Oh, I can, I should be doing these steps.

HC: (17:42)

Yes. So there is three things. One is having an advanced reader team that consists only of your ideal reader. So assembling an advanced reader team of of the right size and the right consistency, right? Having the right people that are the ideal reader for your book, as opposed to I’ll, I’ll give you the thing not to do too, which is don’t launch your book to everybody for 99 cents because that will kill your book. So specifically launching your book to the exact type of person who would read your book. So not telling everyone about your book, telling a specific group of people about your book and engaging them in such a way that it tells Amazon, Ooh, people are going to like this book. And these are the type of people that are going to like this book. And then the two other things are cheating.

RV: (18:36)

So I want, I want to get the other two, but before we do this, so when, when you go like find the ideal, right? I mean, that’s really powerful. So number one, don’t try to just go. I want to sell a million copies that are 99 cents. And just like, you know, set the market. Like, this is what my book is, where it’s 99 cents. You do get, you know, some people do that for the bestseller thing. And you know, there’s some value, I guess, to some of that, but the w how do you find these people? Is that just like, go look on other books in your category and see who’s reviewing those and reach out and try to like, reach out to those people.

HC: (19:11)

That is a strategy, but that is that’s pain and suffering. And I try to avoid pain and suffering. So there’s, I’m anti pain and suffering in every, in every situation. Your ideal client, your past clients, people, you know, who read books like those books. I bet you could tell me five books that are like, take the stairs. I can tell you five books that are like the miracle morning for entrepreneurs with Cameron, Harold. Right? So we went and looked for who are the other books that are like this book, who’s read those books. And those are the people that I want. The people who are the ideal reader for the book are who I want to talk to about the book,

RV: (19:51)

Which if you have an email list and like you do a lot of the things that we teach at brand builders group, what we call the relationship engine and all this stuff. So you’re basically saying it is those people. I mean, those, it is those people, okay. They’re not, they’re not hidden. Yeah. And then it’s other, other podcasts like yours and other authors like yours and other social media people like, you know, posting similar content.

HC: (20:14)

Yes. If you’re marketing to everyone, you’re marketing to no one, you know, this better than anyone, right? Identify who your avatar is, your ideal reader, your ideal client, they’re all the same thing. And put a group of those people together to be your advanced reader team and curate them and help them to help you engage Amazon and other retailers as your partner in your book marketing.

RV: (20:35)

When you say advanced reader team, you’re saying, give them a copy of the book before it comes out. Why is that? So that they can leave reviews early on, as soon as the book comes out. So I have a

HC: (20:48)

Process that I have authors walk with. Like, this is the day that you do this, and this is the day you do this. And this is the day you do that. So that you’re engaging the, the algorithm of the engine, right. Of the retail engine in advance so that they know who to market it to as well. So it’s, it’s, it’s a little Ninja, you know, behind the curtain under wraps, keep it quiet. Don’t talk to anybody about it. I say that a lot. Sip it. Dot com. Don’t tell anyone you’re engaging the exact rate and perfect reader. I know, I know this from experience and I have to say it a lot. You got to keep it quiet, even though this is probably the thing, one of the top five things, you’re the most excited about, right? You have a new kid, your book, and you want to tell everybody about your new kid, but you just can’t for a little while. You’ve got to keep it under wraps and only talk to people about the book who are your avatar, your ideal reader, your ideal client.

RV: (21:44)

And if you get those, those people that go leave reviews, and they’re very either whatever, a verified purchase, those really help. So, okay. So that’s awesome. So I don’t need a million people to read it. I need to find like a core group of a hundred or 50 or whatever, like, and just get them to actually read it, co foster that audience, get them to support it, to leave, you know, share it with whatever start small. All right. What’s you said there were three things we’re running out of time.

HC: (22:12)

Yeah. The other two are quick. The other two are quick keywords. What are the keywords that people search to find your book? Identify, identify your keywords. And it’s not a word. So brand builders would be a key word. So if someone were saying, how do I build my brand? What’s the best way to build my brand. Each of those is a key word. So you identify the keywords that people would use to find a book like yours. And those become your keywords.

RV: (22:42)

You’re talking about, this is similar to search engine optimization for like Google, but you’re, you’re talking specifically in Amazon, correct? You need to select your keywords, but then, but like for SEL, I can. Yeah. Where do you put them on Amazon? That

HC: (22:57)

In, in the backend, in, in when you’re, when you’re publishing your book or when I’m publishing your book, I identify the keywords and I, I put them in the, in the, I do the publishing piece. But there is a, the dashboard, right. Where you would go to upload the book cover and the book files, they ask you, what are your keywords? And you put in the keywords and then the keywords match.

RV: (23:19)

Yeah. And that, see what’s wild about that is when you traditionally publish, you have less control over things like that. I mean, this is, yeah, you do. As you know, it’s, you know, there’s, there’s, there’s, there’s so many great things about traditionally publishing and self-publishing, it’s like one of these, these balances, but, you know, procrastinate on purpose mist, the wall street bestseller list. Not because we didn’t sell enough units because the book wasn’t categorized in the proper category that the, that BookScan and Nielsen and that the wall street journal picks up. And it was like, what, like where, who was supposed to tell us that like

HC: (24:05)

Who’s gonna lose their job today. Yeah. So that’s actually, the third thing is, are the categories your book has to

RV: (24:12)

Look at

HC: (24:13)

That is the third one. Look at you being all star student and everything category is the next ones are key. So advanced reader team in the algorithms getting, you know, the team and teaching the team and, and teaching the author gotta do everything. And you know, at the right time, right, you got to, you got to marinate the meat before you make them put it on the grill, right. The right thing at the right time, then you have to understand what are the keywords and what are the categories and how to change them, how to see if they’re working and how to make sure that you’re making the moves and how to make the moves at the right time. So, like I said, it’s a little bit art, a little bit science.

RV: (24:55)

Where does the CA is the categories of backend dashboard? I mean, I know it’s like monitoring categories. This is one thing. And there’s different ways to do that in different tools in your, hopefully your publisher kind of knows some of that helps you figure that out or, or, you know, but like once you, you’re saying that it’s actually like monitoring it and then going, let’s change the category of this book to put it somewhere else. You can just log in and do that.

HC: (25:22)

You can ask, you can actually send an email to Amazon and ask them to put you in certain categories. Otherwise, they’re just going to put you in categories. If you’ve ever looked at a book and it’s like, this is a book on dog-walking and it’s in the kitten legwarmers category, just because it happens all the time. It’s just because somewhere in, in, in the, the computer, somewhere in there, something got off and it went in the wrong, it went in the wrong. Okay.

RV: (25:54)

So basically you just need a note notify Amazon, say, Hey, can you move this? My, can you list my book in this other category? If you’re self published, if you’re traditionally published, your publisher has to do that.

HC: (26:09)

One would help. Yes.

RV: (26:10)

Yeah. Okay. And then keywords is the same thing, basically like there’s some, there’s a backend part of Amazon where you basically re similar to how you would do with like meta-tags and H you know, like H one H two tags on a website. There’s a, there’s somewhere in Amazon in the backend where you, this dashboard, is it called a dashboard? Is that what you’re

HC: (26:33)

I called the dashboard. Yeah. Let’s see. It’s, you’re just logging in. So it’s Kendall digital publishing, kdp.amazon.com is the, is the login is where you create your account. And so you create an account and you upload all the files and the information it’s where you put in the title and the subtitle and all, and the, and the book description. And you’re right. You have to have HTML and a call to action and making sure that the font sizes right in the spacing is right. Otherwise it just looks a little jeopar walkie on the, on the retail page. And all of those things factor into whether your book appears professionally published.

RV: (27:12)

I know, I mean, again, with procrastinating on purpose, for some way are tight. Our original book cover got uploaded, and it had this like weird glitchy thing on the cover. And there was like a weird splotchy looking thing. And it was like, how does this happen? Like, how does that happen? And it’s just like, somebody uploads a file that’s wonky or something, and yeah.

HC: (27:34)

Wonky or, or corrupt or something. And, and then you have to change it and you have to get to the right person to make the change and all, all the things there’s, my checklist has 487 things on it.

RV: (27:47)

Yeah. Well, 487 steps to success. You know, but you, you, there are small specific things like this, that Matt that really, really make a difference. That’s, that’s, that’s wild. I didn’t even know that about, I mean, I guess I, it made sense, but as a traditionally published author, I don’t actually have control of my keywords and categories. I have to go through with the publisher because it’s all in there. They control the dashboard for it. Right. I presume, although I’m going to ask, I’m going to have this based on,

HC: (28:23)

They have access to the same. They have access to the same. There’s this, there there’s might be a little more robust than what they let you know, the common folk have. The traditional publishers probably have something that’s a little more robust, but they definitely have keywords and categories. But the thing is, yeah,

RV: (28:38)

I got to I’m depending on someone else to do the work of updating it, versus I can’t just log in and do it myself, which is one nice thing about self publishing is you can like log in and update the thing. Yeah. So that’s, that’s, that’s part of the partnership of publishing. Really interesting. So all right. Well honor. So, so I got one more question for you before I ask you that, where do you, where should people go if they, if they want to connect with you? I mean, you’ve worked with Hal, rod, John Roland, Cameron, Harold. These are all these, those three people specifically are close, personal friends of mine. I know you’ve done a ton with Hal and you know, we want, if someone wants help, like actually writing a book and, and I mean, I know you teach people to do it, but you also will do it with them. Where should they go, go find you and say, Hey, I found you on brand builders podcast, or like, where do you want them to go,

HC: (29:42)

Go, just go to my website, honorary quarter.com and send me an email, send me honorary honorary, quarter.com or go to my website and do a, a form and send it over. I get those. And Megan is my assistant and she will, she will get you on my calendar to discuss if this would be a good fit. I love it. I love it. And when you get your rights back on your books, call me you talking to me. Yeah. I’m talking to you.

RV: (30:14)

Oh, well, we should talk. We should talk off, we should talk offline about some things. But the okay, so Andre quarter.com. We’ll put a link to their honorary honorary quarter.com if you just want to email or and then, so the last little thing that I just I have for you here is you know, coming back to this mental side of things. Yeah. The fear that it won’t be good. The self doubt that I’m not smart enough, the imposter syndrome that someone else has already done it I guess, is there any last thought you would have as it relates to this emotional block? Because over time I’d become more convinced that the disk, the barrier between a mission-driven messenger, which is we call our audience mission-driven messengers. The primary barrier between a mission-driven messenger and actual published book in their hand is a whole set of emotional challenges that are much greater than the logistical challenges. So is there anything you would, you would say to that person who knows they should write a book, but they’re struggling to get their own, you know, pass some of their own beliefs?

HC: (31:37)

Probably a hundred things. So I’ll try to come up with a few that are impactful for right now. The first one is you have done something difficult in the past that you were unsure, you could succeed. So go back to those wins that you’ve had in the past and revisit them go to the people who know you the best, your encouragers, your coach, your mom, your therapist, your best friend, and ask them what they think. And when they encourage you, listen to them, they are right. Right. They know they have a line of sight to something that you cannot see. And also you do not publish a book by yourself. I mean, unless you crazy.

HC: (32:19)

And I must be crazy because I’ve done it myself a number of times, but for yourself and by yourself are different. And I have not ever published a book where I didn’t use a graphic designer to give me a good cover and the editor, or more than one editor to go through and make sure that my message was strong, right? So you’re going to need a proofreader and you’re gonna need a copy writer, and you’re gonna need this advanced reader team of people who are gonna read your book and tell you that what you have done is, is a beautiful thing. And writing a book really is a team sport. And so engage the right team of people, make sure that you do use an editor and make sure you do use a graphic designer who does understand book covers and that sort of thing.

HC: (33:05)

And once you have your team around you, you will feel less fear and less reticence that you might be running a marathon for the first time, but you got a coach, right? How many miles do I run today? Do I do strength training? Do I do yoga? Like, what are the other things I need to do? Listen to the other people that you have around you. And then also find some other people that have written books and have gone through the process who can give you some words of wisdom and say, Oh yeah, I felt fear too. And I’m going to add one more thing. And that’s what you touched on it before, when you said I was a twenty-something kid and I wrote, take the stairs. When I wrote my first book, it was kind of like, okay, I’m going to write my first book. I didn’t have that monkey mind either. I didn’t have those self doubts because I honestly didn’t think anybody was ever going to read it. So who cares?

HC: (33:57)

Right? So if you put the pressure on yourself of like, I have to write a book and it has to be a New York times best-selling book and, and, and ad, right. If you make it really hard to feel good about the success of your book and really easy to feel like a failure, you’re already starting behind the eight ball. So just give yourself easy wins. Oh, I’m going to, I’m going to sit down and come up with an idea for a book. Okay. I have an idea. I wonder if I could flush it out with an outline, let me come up with an outline. Okay. That’s a win, like, make it easy for yourself to feel good and make it really hard for yourself to feel bad, not just in book writing, but in life. But in this instance, let’s focus on the book writing so that the fear side and recognize that you’re not doing it alone. And there are a lot of books out there. There are a lot of inferior books in there, a lot of superior books and it’s okay, this is your book. And you get one spin around the rock, right? You better leave something for people to remember you by

RV: (34:58)

There. It is some, some Ninja secret, undercover, whatever you said, confidential tips just, just between me and you and a few tens of thousands of listeners on the podcast podcast. But it’s all about, who’s going to take action on it. I mean, that’s, that’s, that’s it. So Honoree, so good to reconnect with you, my friend. And thanks for sharing some of your wisdom. We wish you the best. I know we’ll be staying in touch, especially now. You are a Nashville neighbor, so all the best to you.

HC: (35:36)

All right. Thank you so much.

Ep 161: Building a Trusted Personal Brand with David Horsager | Recap Episode

And we are back on the influential personal brand podcast recap edition. Today. We are breaking down the interview that we did with our good friend and struggle member, my personal mastermind, speaking mastermind member, David Horsesager talking all about the trusted leader. And here we go. AJ is with us. Why are you laughing at me? We just started struggling. It’s a verb, it’s a verb. And a noun. The struggle is our group. It’s be a Jason Dorsey and Jay Baer. I’m telling them. And it’s awesome. It’s awesome. And you can’t know because it’s confidential, what we struggle about.

Yes. Okay. My first point and, and, you know, this is very similar to several different interviews that we’ve had over the last few months, but noteworthy, nonetheless is using data, using information, using research as a competitive advantage, a core differentiator of what really sets you apart because it’s no longer I think, or this is my opinion. It’s validated, it’s nationally research. It’s proven, it’s statistical, it’s all these big fancy words to the U S census. It’s all those things. But I think it just adds a whole level of clout and credibility and insight when it’s not just your ideas, but it’s your ideas and your thoughts that are then validated in the marketplace and then to take those statistics and then to use those insights, to further the information, to further the education, to help people see the things that they can’t see that’s right in front of them.

And I think that’s a huge part of, what’s just missing with so many thought leaders today is it’s just that it’s just their thoughts. And it’s like, well, is there really any credibility or validity to what you’re saying? And this, this really creates this layer of trustworthiness hence his brand is all it really does. It really does create this enhanced echelon of credibility and makes you be like, okay, so this is statistically valid. Let me see what it says versus just another inspirational motivational leadership thought.Um and I just, I, I, I’m a data nerd. I love statistics and I love information that’s proven. So maybe that’s a huge part of why I’m, I just love that. But as data as your competitive advantage, loved it. Yeah, I think that’s

Cool. I, I noted the data point too it’s and just so you know, like this, these interviews really affect us. We, we actually just conducted a national research study based on stay tuned. But based on, you know, just some of the things that our guests are saying and kind of how we want to position our, our company and that have really had an impact. But one of the things that I loved that, that we kind of got into on that data, on the differentiation part was that that David said thanking your past clients is a point of differentiation. You know? So it’s like, there’s all of these things that you can differentiate by your, your content, your experience, the audiences you serve data, things like that. But, but even your, your client experience and as a speaker specifically, which, you know, his, his business models, mostly like speaking plus training.

And I think, I just thought it was cool to hear him kind of talk about and emphasize how far he goes to thank his past clients. And I think for all of us, whether you’re a doctor or a financial advisor or real estate agent, or, you know, an influencer of some kind, it’s so easy to make the sale and move on and never even go back and talk to your past clients, let alone stop and just say, thank you. And I really love that. And it was a good reminder. So for those of you brand builder clients that are listening, thank you for being awesome. We love you, and we appreciate you and we, we better be doing a good job of thanking you. Yeah,

That’s good. I love that. All right. So my, my second one is Abby first in the space and he talked a lot about this, and this is a very similar to another recent podcast interview that we did where I was all up on this topic. And it was so interesting that he said it to, you said, you know, 20 years ago, no one was talking about trust and leadership and trust in sales. He goes, that, wasn’t a thing is that today you hear about it all the time. But when I started in this space, it really owning the word trust. I was kind of the only one talking about it. And it goes back to again, what are you talking about? That’s truly unique and a way that no one else can compete with it. And if they do, they’re only second to you.

And I just, I, again, just kind of want to harp on that one more time. And it’s not just being first in. It’s like really using your unique perspective and your uniqueness and not looking around at what are your competitors doing and what is the market say? It’s like, who cares what your competitors are doing, what the market says, what do you say? And that’s a huge part of like how they get started in this. And he owned that space. And that has really propelled his career of just being first in the space of living into his uniqueness that no one else was talking about, but it was,

Yeah, I think you and I have, have developed a lot of clarity about the idea that we care less about what competitors are doing and all we’re all in on an individual’s uniqueness and just doing what they were designed to do. And David’s a great example of that. I think my second takeaway was really about the getting speaking gigs. I remember when we had Dave Avar and another one of our long-time mentors on, he said, you know, for those of you interested in speaking, you have to realize, speaking is not the business, getting the gig is the business. And when we got in such a great line yeah. And I’d never heard him say that before that interview, but, but when we talked here with David and it was like, okay, how do you get the gig? And he said, well, it’s a mix of three things, great content, great delivery and great marketing.

And I loved that and I was mapping it to the brand builder journey. And when we take people through captivating content that is creating great content, which is what is your unique body of work, your unique philosophies, great delivery is what we would call world-class presentation craft. And it is exclusively dedicated to the art of presentation skills and then great marketing, which is full keynote calendar, which is the, the, the, the actual business mechanics of getting the gig. But if you’re not getting more gigs it’s because one of those three things is off and probably more it’s either great content, great delivery or great marketing. And I think that applies even beyond speaking, it would be the same for like writing, right? You have to write a great book. The premise, the ideas have to be good. The writing has to be good and the marketing has to be good. Like you need all three of those. So just kind of ask yourself, which of those three are breaking down for me and which ones am I doing really well, that was, that was super practical to take away from me.

I had to contain myself so strongly not to pipe in and be like, Oh, I know what that one was. That was cultivate content.

You were going to be like, Oh, your calendar. I know it. I know it.

I love when I know the answers to questions, but yeah, it’s so true. It’s just, I think that, that’s a great point. It’s like, which one of these is your weak point

And yeah. Yeah. Just to, and just to say directly to Edify what we’re talking about once you identify which one is, is your weakness reach out to us for a call because we have separate dedicated courses and curriculum that nail each of these, these three things specifically.

Oh, okay. My next one, my last one is expand your business model off of your existing body of content. We work with so many clients at brand builders group where they think they have to have 15 different sets of curriculums in order to have different business models. And they’ve got a leadership thing and a sales thing, and a diversity thing in a, at a customer service thing. It’s like, you don’t need all those things. You can actually take one body of content and multiply it exponentially. And David talks a lot about this. And it’s a lot of what we do at brand builders group, but it’s, I think it’s just a really amazing cause like you take the same curriculum, that would be a book and a keynote, turn it into a consulting program, turn it into a training program and then turn it into a certification program.

It’s not new content. Y’all, it’s taking the same content and just creating different delivery mediums that expand your business models, expand your revenue streams. But with way less work on you trying to create brand new content and topics and curriculum that aren’t necessary. It’s like, why are you getting a book is different than a keynote, different than a half day training, different in a consulting retainer different in a certification program, but you can have all of those things, plus a course plus a podcast plus more stuff off the same body of content, the same exact curriculum that you began with. And I think that’s just really, really important for anyone who is out there going, how do I diversify my income streams? How do I grow revenues without having to start over with like a whole new topic or a whole new book? It’s like, well, you don’t, you can take the exact same content you’ve had for five, 10, 20, 50 years, and just expand the different ways that you deliver that content and grow your business. And he’s David’s business is a great example of how he’s built three very diverse revenue streams off the same car.

Yeah. That’s so that’s so good. And you think about Dave Ramsey, you know, most of it comes back to the seven baby steps, which is one book you got. I think a Verne Harnish basically has has two books that are very much in the same vein and some of the biggest personal brands in the world. It’s just taking one book and extrapolating it. It’s kind of like when we say people don’t pay for information, they pay for application, you know, organization and application help them. That’s the different business model is just applying the stuff you’ve already created. Well, related to that, you know, one of the things I really admire about David’s business mom, and he’s amazing on stage. I love the trust edge book. I think it’s, it should be mandatory reading for every high schooler. I really do. I just think it’s great.

I, I will make our kids read it. I think it’s just, it’s a great universal, you know, kind of success principles book, but the, in his business model, I love how he does the like the certifications and it’s not just a volume game of like, how can I get more and more people paying to be certified. But it’s really asking the question, how can I support people better? How can I make each person that is certified on my content, more likely to succeed? How can I make, how can I help them make more money? How can I make it easier for them? How can I make them look good? And that is something that, you know, we, we’ve never really done training per se, we’ve done training, but that we’ve always had like strategists and consultants not train the trainer model. So we’re brand builders, a little bit of a hybrid, I guess, of, of a train the trainer model.

But most of, most of what we do is one-on-one work with clients, not with corporations. So typically train the trainer is like a B2B model, but we’ve worked with coaches, strategists, people. We would even call trainers and we’ve always, you, you have to stay locked in on that question. How can we help them make more money? How can we help them succeed faster? How can we help them help the clients get faster results and not just how do we get more and more and more and more people certified. And I just, I thought that was a good reminder and he does a really great job of, of supporting his, his strategists

His trainers. So

That’s it. That’s a wrap. So go out, check out trusted leader and trust ed, your friend, David, horse soccer. Dave, we love you, man. Thanks for, thanks for showing up and thank you for being here and we’ll see you next time on the influential personal brand podcast.

Ep 160: Building a Trusted Personal Brand with David Horsager

RV: (00:07)

We say around Brand Builders Group a lot that reputation precedes revenue and reputation effectively is an unconscious calculation of how much people trust you. Do they trust you? Do they trust your brand? Do they trust what you are saying? And it only made sense that I would bring to you one of my very best friends David Horsager for an interview, and I’ve purposely been waiting for you to meet him. He is one of my most trusted friends. We are super close and he is the guy on trust. He owns the topic of trust. He is the CEO of the trust edge leadership Institute. He wrote a national bestseller called the trust edge. He also every year puts out a study called the trust outlook. And then he invented something called the ETI, the enterprise trust index, which kind of measures trust inside of organizations and things. And he is a hall of fame speaker. He works with companies like the New York Yankees, FedEx Toyota, global governments, department of Homeland security and just really, really world renowned. And so he’s here to share a little bit of his story about how he became the guy on trust and how he built the business he’s got today. So brother, thanks for being here.

DH: (01:28)

Hey, Rory, it is a treat to be with the brand builders and just playing with you and what a journey, great to be in a friend group and mastermind group and just doing life. So yeah,

RV: (01:41)

Thanks. We should mention, we should mention that, right? That you and I, and Jay Baer and Jason Dorsey are in a, a true peer colleague, unpaid friend, friend, supported mastermind. We call it the struggle. We have been together five or six years,

DH: (02:00)

I think at least something like

RV: (02:01)

That. We’ve had all, we, we, what people don’t know, every single one of us, we for back-to-back-to-back years were inducted into the professional speaking hall of fame and where you first or was Jay.

DH: (02:16)

I was, I think, yeah.

RV: (02:19)

And then me and then Dorsey. That’s right. So the power of surrounding yourself with amazing people, but I want to hear your, I want you to share the story of how you started, right? Because somebody’s listening out there right now are going, gosh, I’d love to speak. I would love to work with the New York Yankees. I’d love to have a, you know, a multi seven figure business. I’d love to do these things. How did you start?

DH: (02:47)

Yep. So I, it goes back, you know, I grew up on a farm in the poorest County in Minnesota and, you know I was a youngest of six kids and I, I definitely had kind of vision for great things, grateful for my parents to be the great leaders they were. And mom and dad are still 91 now and still run the farm. And actually just sold about 750 acres. So they’re thinking about how they can give away money these days. But I basically, after after college, I went to be on staff with the youth and faith and the organization. And after that, I, I later became director and I built a little bit of leadership curriculum for kind of college students do youth, whatever, move back to Minnesota. And this is how it started. We put every penny we had into that first organization.

DH: (03:35)

I have to tell my kids, this is back in the 19 hundreds, you know? But we moved back to Minnesota. I had one booking for $500. One thing I’d booked. I moved back, moved everything from living on a golf course, down in Arkansas to back to Minnesota. I, and so we jumped in and, and I, I thought, how are we going to save money? How are we going to do this? So we found not, not really an apartment, the basement of 86 year old Clara. Miller’s no windows, no bathroom, no kitchen, black mold on the walls. And that’s where we started this. And we lived there for two years and actually we we started with nothing. And by that October, I don’t everything we had into marketing and videos, all this stuff. And we add a dollar 40 to our name, 60 cents in the business account, 80 cents in the home account after paying her urgent bills, that’s all we had. And at the time we figured if we could just make 700 bucks a month, I could pay my urgent bills. And I think my, I think my, I think my statement that year from the IRS was that I made $2,000 or something. So for the, for the year. So anyway, that, that was the start. And I’ll tell you, it’s not

RV: (04:53)

Fast start a dollar 42,000 bucks your first year.

DH: (04:58)

Yup. 2000 in profit, 2000 in profit, not revenue. Okay. So and that was half a year in, you know, so all we had was a half a year to work with her, but basically we started with call, call, call, call, call, and working till 11 at night. And making calls people that say that phone calls don’t work anymore. I just don’t where we we still make calls. But anyway that was, that was how we started. And we’ve shifted things, you know, several times the grad work was a big launch pad. Obviously all my work around trust became interesting to people, more famous than me. The book.

RV: (05:36)

Yeah. Let’s talk about, let’s talk about trust, right? Because you, you know, that we, we talk about she hands wall with our community and being known for one thing and breaking through the wall. You are one of the best examples of that. Of just, just owning one thing, one topic, one issue, one problem of trust. How did you decide that? How did you land on that? How did you choose it? Did it choose you kind of a thing? Like what was that?

DH: (06:07)

It was a mix. And I think I was, I had been kind of sharing this leadership work, got asked to speak to the us coast guard Academy, a few other things. And basically I still remember where I was. I was at it was not that it was some big spiritual epiphany, but I was, it was before we had the four kids and all that. And Lisa and I were traveling together and we’re at an event down in, I think it was Tucson, Arizona. I just remember it was probably the most expensive place we’d stayed at till that point. It was the Lowe’s resort. After a day of this, at this business conference, I just turned thinking the problem they think they’re having. I don’t think it’s real problem. It’s not a leadership problem. The reason people don’t follow that leader is trust. I think that’s the problem.

DH: (06:47)

They think they’re having a sales. It’s not a sales issue. The reason people don’t buy as trucks and, and, and it kept going, and this was just intuitive. This was not grad work. This wasn’t research basis. It was just, Oh, that’s a trust problem. That’s a trust issue. That’s just me now. Fast forward. I believe everything genuinely is a trust. I believe you. I believe most people are not solving the root issue. It’s always a trust issue at the core. It’s not a leadership issue. It’s not a sales issue. It’s not an innovation issue. The only way to increase learning issue is increase trust in the content that the teacher or the psychologic saving the environment. It’s not a diversity issue. The only way that, that biggest Harvard study shows diversity on its own pitch to people against each other, the only way to get the benefits of it is increased trust, which is our many with trust.

DH: (07:29)

So, so, but back then, so I press into it a little bit. I started thinking about it, more sort of reading. There was, by the way, Rory back then there was nothing written on trust and leadership. There was no research. I mean, a lot of people are talking about trust the last decade to deck over two decades ago. Nobody, almost nobody in business and leadership was nursing psychology stuff. So I decided at the time now speaking some already, I kind of had enough going on that way. It wasn’t like I had to, but I thought I just had gone away for this one weekend. I thought, I think it was just to get my bachelor’s degree. So I just look at colleges and turn up the one that I graduated from. Usually you want variety in your grad work, but I just decided, Oh, I can get right in.

DH: (08:14)

And they have my transcripts and they had this organizational leadership degree and I put every bit of my research and my final dissertation, everything on trust. And that became interesting to some people. And that led to my passion, that then led to us using that framework in organizations. And it worked, we saw tripling of sales. We saw retention reduce. We actually had something real. So I think one thing that I will differentiate on the two people that are just brand builders is I’m big on, and I know many of your people are, but I’m just saying I was, it was real for me. It was, I was genuinely passionate. This work changed me. So I would just argue with people, find one thing, but something that is and true to them because now my work has been used on six continents. We just had an outside university triangulated, revalidation, revalidated, the work as the framework that builds trust globally. So I mean the research added passion, the books added passion, the scene change in people and organizations that passion. I just, I should walk over to the other side of my desk. There’s I just got a postcard from a guy that said five years ago, you were here and helped us with this. And it changed our organization. And here’s how and whatever. So, you know, that was the, some of, you know, there’s a long, there’s 20 years in there, right.

RV: (09:33)

But it’s connected to your personal passion, personal belief system. And then you mentioned the grad work, and this is something I wanted to talk about. You know, we’ve had, we’ve had Dorsey on Jason Dorsey came on you know, the, our, our audiences, you know, a little bit familiar with that. But one thing that you, you do, he does, and Jay Baer does, and we’ve not really done, which we are in the middle of is really doing more data driven research. So you started it in PR in grad school, and now you do an annual study. And so talk to us about why data, how data, how does, how does that happen?

DH: (10:14)

I remember at the core, I love story. I love keynote speaking, but I thought was different. I saw speakers that were kind of motivational with no depth or value. And, and we said, instead of putting money into marketing, we’re going to give value. And really our research study became a way of showing value. That was a marketing play. We didn’t mean it to be, but that’s, that’s kind of what happened. So so the, we do the annual study to be on just the cutting edge of thought leadership around trust. You know, we call the trust outlook. That’s what it’s called. Trust, outlook.com. You can see our last several years, we had done one way back, you know, called trust trends in 2014 big study, I had done a course, my grad work, we put out some different studies over time that weren’t so deep.

DH: (11:00)

Like w w I remember we did one at the Obama Romney election to judge trust between those two at the time. So we, we did some other studies, but basically, and now we even had a tr revalidated by an outside university that, and they said, this is the framework for building trust globally. So it’s, it’s costs. It can be costly, but it’s the way of being authentic thought leaders in your space. And so we do use that data. Of course, it gets out on social media. You know, the trust outlook out of the trust edge leadership Institute puts this out and, and all that. And then, you know, I can start, you know, whether it’s in a boardroom or, or with 5,000 people in front of me with something very fresh and relevant to them. And even my, I know you have certified folks, my certified certified trust ed coaches around the world.

DH: (11:49)

There’s a whole part of the platform that we offer that has research slides. So you have trust and leadership slides. You have trust in sales, trust, and culture trust in policing. We have people dealing with our trustworthy for corruption issues and needs to Africa, you know, so, so it gives them grit and beef, and it serves them well, to be able to start with research, I’ll give you a one in one research I’m finding last year, the number one reason people wanted to work for an organization ahead of being paid more ahead of more autonomy ahead of a more fun work environment with the pink bunk table. Number one, they wanted to, they wanted trusted leadership. And really that just points to our whole, the whole new book, trusted leader. Like people either want to be a trusted leader, or they want to follow leaders. They trust and more than anything else. So that just backed up. You did take that one piece of data that can show 92% of people said this or that or whatever. And all of a sudden it backs up what we’ve been saying, and it gives grit to it. And people people want more depth than ever before. If you’re going to build a brand, you know, they want to feel like you genuinely do. It’s not just some idea pulled out of your head, you know?

RV: (13:03)

So when you, you mentioned the money part of this, and it also, you know, kind of makes sense. Like if you’re the trust guy you’re doing research and pulling data and all that stuff, it helps, it helps it be trusted. That’s very aligned,

DH: (13:15)

Huge differentiator by the way, huge. Because if you know who else in my space, that is a big, big name and whole family has a big name for years. The difference between us as I as far as trust goes, our book, our first books came out about the same time, but we have done all this, you know, proprietor

RV: (13:35)

Anybody, right? Like, like, yeah. I mean, just anybody do you know this data, which, you know, if you didn’t listen to the interview that we did with Jason Dorsey, you should go listen to that interview about how data is the differentiator. Now you mentioned the cost, right? So I thought that was interesting that you said, instead of putting it all into marketing, we put it into this and it kind of ends up also be marketing. Are these, you know, to pull off a study, are you talking thousands of dollars, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands? Like, I mean, what’s the,

DH: (14:09)

No, it depends. So for us, I can remember the first time I did study for maybe it was only, I don’t know. Well, not the first time, the first time I did the trust, outlook way of doing a study, it was, I don’t know you know, I don’t know, 30,000 or something, we’ve done them 10 hundreds of thousands, tens of thousands. And I did it only on the us side. And then I’m sharing the data. I’m at a massive conference up in Toronto and I’m like, Oh my goodness. Each piece of research says us the worst. I was so embarrassed that I said never again. And we went to global and global it’s much more expensive generally, but now we do it in house. So we do it in numbers that aren’t aren’t figure like those, like one year we were up toward almost, you know, a six-figure study there

RV: (14:57)

Just a field, the study. Then you got to like, produce the assets and like do the infographics and it’s, and the time, I mean, there’s a bunch of time to write the questions and all this stuff. Huh.

DH: (15:08)

But we, but nowadays it’s, it’s so worth it. I mean, we make, it’s such a differentiator that in an hour, you many people could do a study for, you know, that 20 to 30,000. That was actually quite, you know, I don’t know. It depends on how much of the globe you’re going to reach, but we, you know, one year we took the top, top GDP, peak country on every continent. So it wasn’t like every, every country, but then you have seven or whatever countries that we decided to, to go after. So you had some relevant, you know global data, but we’ve done them different sizes. But I think today you better do global, not just us generally unless you’re doing a specific area, like we did a specific executive edition. That was just us. And we also added interviews of those CEOs.

RV: (15:58)

Do you think this is part of what leads to this has led to speaking engagements is basically just publishing this kind of thought leadership. You know, we all hear, you know, we hear YouTube, LinkedIn podcast, blog, you know, book. We hear that pretty often. And then this is another whole piece is like, Oh, the study. And then is that the, I mean, are those the things that drive your speaking or is there some other like secret formula to getting speaking engagements?

DH: (16:26)

Well, the secret formula in speaking is in the mix, but I will tell you something I can tell you you know, when we make beautiful, real magazines, like I could grab one and show you across the room actually. So, you know, just trust, outlook that, you know, the whatever and, and you can see it

RV: (16:47)

And you print it, you make it as a magazine and print it. Okay. Okay.

DH: (16:50)

Yeah. And you can see the data in here if you’re watching, or I just said, you know, pie charts and whatever, that’s makes it interesting and fun to read and this many of this or whatever. So I’ve had someone hire me for a tens of tens of tens of thousands of dollars by opening up the page and saying, building trust in crisis or building trust in the midst of change. I’m like, Oh my gosh, it was this article right here. And that person hired me for a, you know, tens, tens, tens, tens of thousands of dollars a day. Because they’re like, this is what we need. Come spend a day with our executive team. We need to build trust in the midst of this change so that that’s not always you know, I’ve had, I mean, you go to the book and you go, you’ve written some amazing books that I love.

DH: (17:39)

I mean, that is another part of it. I had someone pick up the book of high powered, you know, Senator to pick up the book in the Denver airport. And that’s why I spoke to Congress twice. I had the president of Procter and gamble pick up the book in a, on a Sunday with his, when he’s with his daughter at a Barnes and noble. And that’s why I spoke to Procter and gamble. So th th there’s, there’s some kind of anomaly type things that, that, but th the, the book, the research for us, as far as speaking it is, you know, doing a great job and by the way, and you’ve done so well at this from back to your Toastmasters data, everything, you know, but I’ve had mentors on like I’ve hired comedy, I’ve hired, you know comedians to look at myself.

DH: (18:26)

I had helped me. I’ve had, I’ve hired speech coaches. I’ve hired improv. I’ve heard all these things. I’ve had you look at my speech before I gave my hall of fame speech. If you remember, because I’m like all of the mentors on being great on stage the book piece, the research piece you know, there’s social media pieces that we’ve gone more all in on than we ever were before too. But I would say something about the speaking piece, a big differentiator for us by the way is how we think people, huh? That’s, it’s, we’re just better at thinking everybody. And then many, like, I can’t even believe all the people that say, you know, the other 25, 35, 45, $55,000 speakers. I never got anything for having them at our conference. I couldn’t believe how you followed up and thanked us, and we send a big package and all this stuff. So I think, you know, there’s all, all kinds of little things that can make it, you know, build your brand

RV: (19:26)

Well. And, you know, I’d take that in investing into your business and investing into your trade, both the, both the message part of it and the depth of the thought leadership, and then as well as the presentation of it, you onstage, which seems like all the way back to those very early days, you’ve always been investing into it and growing. So, so you started in 1999. I’d love to hear just a, kind of just a couple minutes on your business model today, right? So this is 20, over 20 years later. Now you’ve got a team, you’ve got these great websites, these great demo videos like you, you, you, you can see how over years it has built up. And, and I’d love specifically for you to talk a little bit about like the train, the trainer model and the certification business model, because I think you do a really great job of, of taking your curriculum and having other people be able to teach it, you know, and that’s, I think that’s a scalable model for what, you know, a lot of people can learn from.

DH: (20:31)

So it sounded the research, the ways we fulfill the mission of developing trusted leaders and organizations around the world, remember we think that’s helping to deal with the root cause. So we’re, we’re training, leading leadership events, sales events, all these kinds of things, but are all these different problems, but there’s three business units. One is speaking and training from us. That’s me speaking a hundred events a year. Now we have a five camera studio right here, 20 yards from rehab producer. Full-Time I mean, we’re doing that. Whether that’s onstage live or virtually, we’re doing, you know, that’s, that’s a kind of, that’s a one and done though, right. Then there’s, then we have the consulting piece. And that is, you know, I had built several assessments in my grad work and was overseen by the, the guy that wrote the book on three 60 gap analysis.

DH: (21:16)

So we have an enterprise trust index it’s built on 50 years of Accenture data and, and, and my grad work and its way of measuring trust in big organizations and closing gaps. That’s consulting. I have consultants subcontracted on my team to do big. Those are big, significant issues. We’re working with the global pharmaceutical that you all would know right now, trying to pill trust globally with the vaccines going on all this stuff. Okay. So that’s, that’s really customized part, our biggest push right now. And the love is this certification part. And that is we certify independent coaches and corporate trainers inside of companies to use our content, but we don’t just certify them. We support them. So they pay monthly or annually. And we heard a lot of people say, well, I’ve got this one. We, you know, I got certified and then I never got support, or I got certified.

DH: (22:07)

And I just got these five, you know, 20 videos and worksheets. We give them everyday, my 21 years, we took and built ourselves and coded and created a beautiful platform that has everything that we heard they wanted. So it has, you know, research-based content and courses they can use on their people. It has assessments unlimited. They can use these assessments. They can see the cool, beautiful pie charts and everything, and how they can close gaps. They CA it has community. So I’ve got, you know, I’ve had the Dean of Penn state and the Dean of university of Nebraska that are certified the police to the seat, Las Vegas, and the, you know, people in Uganda, Kenya, Quebec answering them one of the former heads of, you know Nike is one. So you have this group really cool group of learning pros, whether the inside of companies or independence that then monthly, we support, they, they have the online community built kind of a, you could say a Facebook, whatever, right. In our site. And then we have monthly calls where they get to share ideas and sharpen each other. And, and yeah,

RV: (23:17)

So they pay up, they basically pay a fee to get certified. And part of that includes access to this library of stuff they’re in this community. And then they have the ability to like, reteach your content, effectively

DH: (23:33)

Assessments on limit. They can make so much money, you know, to using our content and having our support. And they get real people in my company when they need help. And they get these monthly calls and they get our annual event with it. So they pay an onboarding fee and then they pay monthly or annually, whichever way they choose on the support and ongoing we’re updating the site all the time. It’s we had some, we’ve had some big companies come and look at it. Like they heard about what we’re doing. Like, what are you doing? This is, you know,

RV: (24:01)

I mean, they pay, they pay a one-time fee at the beginning, and then monthly after that is basically how it works

DH: (24:07)

Or they pay the one-time fee plus annual, and then they can use it for you. But they pay either, either they pay that one time fee, plus they’re paying monthly, or they play the one-time fee and an annual, and then it doesn’t get again until another year.

RV: (24:21)

I gotcha. But, but, but, and so that is, that’s a model that you guys are doing, where basically you can certify and train and support other people to go out and teach your content, which you make money from. They can make money from, and it helps you spread the mission.

DH: (24:38)

And, and it’s so fun. Like I had a, I was at a banquet with John Maxwell and I got seated up, you know, I didn’t necessarily do it over. I just got to be seated with him. Anyway, we you know, he said he said, David, you’ve got to stop just letting corporate dudes. Cause I used to do train the trainer only like you buy this big pack, you know, three ring binder, and then you can you buy the workbooks? And the annuity is in buying the workbooks. And the thing is today, people want it flexible. They want to teach one-on-one one on a thousand. They want to be able to do all these things. So we said, well, if we can support them, I mean, it’s cool. What’s happening. This one, one of our corporate trainers, our trainers in Indonesia, she’s using our work on banking and oil executives. And she’s using our work in this foundation with girls that are coming out of sex trafficking to rebuild trust. I mean, how fun is it to see the mix of use of, of, of these coaches that are making money with it and making a difference with it?

RV: (25:35)

Yeah, really, really cool stuff. It’s a long way from your dollar 40 11 in the basement with no windows.

DH: (25:46)

There’s a lot of people like you, like, you know, mentors, God’s grace, my wife, I mean, this has been a journey. And you know, thankfully it’s been amazing

RV: (25:59)

Well and influential leader that the trust edge, if you will, you’ll want to, one of your first books is to me a book that is, I, I think of it, like take the stairs. It’s a book that every single person should read. No matter your age, your position, your title, like you should read the trust edge. I fully plan on having our boys read it. Like as soon as they can. It’s, it’s, it’s just like a solid staple that everybody should read.
We have the trusted leader, the brand new book coming out about how to apply this inside of organizations and to apply it to your own life, to develop a culture of trust. Where should people go if they want to get trusted leader, you know, right now I know you’ve got bonuses and all that stuff at the time, this is coming out. So where should people go to connect with you?

DH: (27:30)

The best place where we have some special guests for all your listeners is trusted leader, book.com/rory, R O R Y. So trusted leader, book.com/rory. Otherwise you can find everything at trust, edge.com and all kinds of things, but you get a bunch of free resources. If you just go to trusted leader, book.com/rory,

RV: (27:54)

I love it. So go there trusted later. Book.Com/Rory pick up the book. I’m telling you this is quality stuff. Not, not just the, you know, the watching clearly the way that they do what they do is super valuable for you as a, as a, you know, someone as a personal brand, but also the actual substance of the content that David and the team they teach is absolutely extraordinary. Incredible. It’s made such a difference in my life, our marriage, our kids, how we run business, we are just huge, huge fans of the trust edge. And so excited about the trusted leader. Now, applying this and helping our leaders go through it. So go to trusted leader, book.com/rory. David, thank you for being here, brother. We wish you all the best. Thank you.

Ep 157: How to Unlock Your Hidden Genius with Victoria Labalme | Recap Episode

Forward from my good friend mentor, buddy client Colleague Victoria Labalme

You know, Victoria, I have to tell you, I remember, gosh, I remember being at like some of my very first NSA national speakers association meetings when I was 20 years old, maybe 22 years old watching Victoria onstage or watching videos of her and just being like, Oh my gosh, this, this woman is a whole nother level. And she really is. I mean, her performance it’s, you know, it’s one of those things on a podcast that you go, gosh, I wish you could, how do I, how do I showcase this? But you know, if you go to Victorialabalme.com, you can check it out, you know, see some of, some of her stuff on stage, but you know, this book for her is really interesting. I mean, risk forward is unlocking your hidden genius. What a great concept of unlocking your hidden genius. And, you know, she kinda marries this idea of, of her past, which is performance and not just like presentation skills, like speech, mechanics, but everything presentation, the art of the stage and the gesture and the facial expressions and, and just how to, how to use every asset.

You have to communicate from any type of platform. And so she’s taking that performance and she’s also she’s also combining that and wrapping that with her business expertise and personal development and leadership. And I just, I just love this, the idea that conversation that she was, where she was talking about her mentor, Marcel Marceau. And I, I forget how you say and, and French, but, you know, he said, well, and, and let me, I guess, just jump in and clearly, you know, I’m, it’s just me, it’s just me on this recap is not here with us, but my number one takeaway is I think, what is the central message of her entire book, which is take creative risk, take creative risk. And I mean, that’s such a simple message. It speaks to, by the way, like so many of our clients, this is what we help them with in phase one brand DNA, which is kind of our flagship, which is one of the events that Victoria has been through.

And, you know, it’s funny like walking a client through that, but then interviewing her as a receiver going, Oh my gosh, what a powerful message. These, these three words, like take creative risk. It’s, it’s so important. And Marcel Marceau was telling her, I think, you know, the, the actual French translation of what he said was go forward with your heart open, right? Like leaning, leaning forward with your heart open. And, you know, I think this, this hit me personally, because so much of what we do at brand builders group is we try to make it a science. And those of you that have actually been through some of our events and courses and things like, you know, this, we try to turn what is a fairly abstract and OBS skier concept of personal branding which has like a thousand different parts, all these different topics, no random, no order or sequence.

And we try to use data and experience and corroboration from successful clients and friends and colleagues to, to create straightforward systematic frameworks and, and checklists and step-by-steps and exercises and templates that people can follow. And I think that’s one of the things that frankly we do really well. I would, I would go so far to say, we do that as good, if not better than anyone in the world. I mean, that’s all we do. And, and yet I think the, one of the reasons that I loved her message is it’s such a good reminder to not get so caught up in the science in the system and the structure that you forget to take creative risks. One of the things, and we actually tell our clients this in world-class presentation craft, which is our it’s a phase one event. It’s, it’s the third course in phase one for us.

And at the very end, you know, we teach all these mechanics of the psychology of laughter and how to tell a story and how to develop characters and how to create a plot in conflict and how to sell from stage without feeling salesy and how to, you know, what’s the, what’s the structure and the outline of a, of a world-class presentation that, that separates it, you know, and, and gets higher fees than most presentations and all these things that we do, which are really awesome. And then at the very end, we say, remember, but, but here’s the thing, never let the science get in the way of the art, never let the science get in the way of the art at the end of the day, personal branding, leadership, just being a messenger in influencer, changing the world, it’s art. It is art and like all forms of art painting music, which I happen to not know much about, but I know enough to say this.

They all have rules and systems and structure that you must learn and operate within. But then at some point, once you’ve mastered those, the art is about transcending that, and, and that is part of what I was really inspired by for me personally, and for our clients at brand builders to just go, gosh, that’s so great. We’re, we’re kind of creating the science and the systematic structure. And the real goal is to get people to that point and then to have them transcend it, to do their own creative things and be, and be willing to take those risks. And I, and it actually left me wondering, frankly, as I assess my own personal brand going, I wonder if I’m not taking enough creative risk personally. Like I wonder if I’m coloring too much inside the lines, just being that that’s what we do and what we preach and what we teach and go, and where, where can I step up and step out and, and, and take a risk.

So, and there’s definitely things that we’ve done with that. I mean, when I think about when we launched the take the stairs book, you know, and one of the things that AIJ and R and I, and our team did was we did, we did a bus tour. We like got a tour bus, which you don’t see happen that often, anymore, even, even back in those days. And, you know, that was super creative, but we, we made it into a fundraiser and, and looking back, it was so powerful. We did 23 events in 31 days, went from all the way from New York to Washington and to San Diego and everywhere in between, and traveled the country and met and shook hands and met bookstore owners and connected with our fans. And it was just, there wasn’t like a playbook for it that we were following at that time.

We just did it. And it was, it was so powerful. So that’s one of my takeaways. And I would turn that to you to go, where have you kind of mastered the fundamentals that you could afford to take some creative risk? And I don’t think it’s impossible to take creative risk in from the very beginning, but I do think it’s kind of like, at least my personal experience has been one where it’s like, learn the rules before you break them, master the game, and then change the game. And is most of, I guess the paradigm of how I’ve operated, but that’s not to say that’s the only way to do it, but either way, whether you’re just like a wild gunslinger and you’re going to take creative risks early on, go for it. But to me, the part that really, what really spoke to me is once you have the systems, the structure, the fundamentals, the basics, you know, in place, and then going, okay now, like how can I add to it?

So take creative risks, lean into something you feel called to do, especially if it’s different from what other people do. This reminds me of one of my all time, favorite quotes from one of my all time, favorite people, Sally Hogshead, who Victoria also knows, and she’s she’s at NSA or so we, you know, the NSA crew, eventually, if you hang around NSA long enough, you’re going to meet all a bunch of these people. And particularly in the, in the speaking world, the legends of speaking, so to say but, but anyways, Sally Hogshead says different is better than better. Different is better than better. And that is so powerful. It makes me, makes me think about this. So that was my first takeaway. My second takeaway from this interview, which is not something Victoria said, it was something that the concept of risk forward and, and it was something, it was catalyzed by what she said, but I don’t think I’ve ever had this thought so directly and succinctly, as I did in the moments following this interview and kind of digesting the conversation.

And here’s, here’s what my premise is. This is what I realized. Being an entrepreneur is being an artist, being an entrepreneur is being an artist. Business is art. It’s not just numbers and financials and projections and, you know, sales talks and, and policies and procedures and systems. All of that put together is art. And I would say that, you know, the starving artist is, is, is a really unfortunate term. One of one of my good friends, Jeff goings wrote a book called real artists. Don’t starve, which I just loved the premise of that because, you know, the indulgent artists says my art is so good. People should have to find me, right. And who am I to tell you? You shouldn’t have that belief. But what I would say is experience tells me that’s not a very profitable belief to have, right? You can say that, but you’re probably not going to end up with much money.

There’s a lot of people that are amazing artists, amazing writers, amazing, amazing singers, dancers, speakers of like just authors comedians that I’ve met in my journey that you have never heard of. And that the world will never hear of because they have this belief that if my art is so good, people will find it. And what they’re missing is the realization that marketing is art. Marketing is artistry. There is art just like there is the art in the creation of the work. There is art in the promotion of the work. We have so many friends in book launches right now, Victoria being one of them John Lee Dumas being one of them, the Jamie Kern, Lima Luvvie Ajayi. Both of them just hit the new times bestseller list and, and their, their work is art, but the marketing is also art. So there’s two parts of the, of the artist and two parts of the business owner.

There’s the, the logic and the structure and the processes and the systems and the policies. And then there is the creative. There is the innovation. There is the new thinking. Being an entrepreneur is being an artist. Marketing is artistry. Customer experience is artistry. The one place there’s probably not room for much artistry is in your financial in your don’t, don’t take this too. We don’t want creative accounting practices. So I w I wouldn’t translate it there, but I would definitely say the way that a conductor orchestrates a symphony is the way that the entrepreneur conducts the company is the way that the leader or the executive conducts the huge organization that is art and leadership. And you have to realize that the art is not just in creating the work, but also promoting the work and, and helping the work flourish and, and having that work, see life and make an impact.

And a difference in the world being an entrepreneur is being an artist. That was my second takeaway, inspired that one inspired by Victoria. And then my third takeaway, which was directly from her, which is funny, because I’ve never heard her say this, and I’ve, I’ve never really realized the power of this quite the way that she said it. And basically what she said is don’t be afraid of uncertainty specifically in your decision-making, right? She said, what a lot of people do is we’re so uncomfortable with uncertainty that we rushed to make a decision, just so that we can have clarity and not have to live in the discomfort of uncertainty and what there’s a beautiful part of that. I think of where she’s saying, you know, kind of allow yourself to navigate that window for a moment, allow yourself to sit in that space to go.

I need to neither go forward or backwards. I can just kind of sit here for a minute and digest. I can allow for things to matriculate or to propagate. I can just kind of process on things for a minute, and that that’s a beautiful space to live in too. It’s almost to allow for a breath to allow for a moment of creativity or innovation to show up by not just rushing immediately into the next thing and moving from one thing to the next, but to actually to, yeah, just, just kind of I guess, digest and, and process, and you know, like have a gestation period of which you sit in uncertainty and that beautiful art can come out of that. And that, I think as another thing, this was eye opening for me, because I think I am a, I’m a driver, I’m a straight shooter, I’m ambitious, I’m focused, right?

And so it’s always like bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, you know, like next, next, next X, X, what’s the next thing. And go, and Hey, is there a spot? Are there opportunities in my life that I am skipping past an opportunity for brilliance for the sake of rushing into clarity versus, I mean, this would be one place where procrastinate on purpose. I mean, you know, my book title that I wish I would have called how to multiply your time. But if, because the premise, the procrastinator purpose book is really about how to multiply time. That’s what the book is about. But that one, that one section, which is about procrastinating on purpose procrastinating, strategically, that actually isn’t what most of the book is about, but that’s kind of it’s that concept is relevant here to what she’s saying is like, wait, like sit for a moment and just kind of allow yourself to feel that uncertainty, because brilliance can come out of that.

And that was like, Whoa. So just powerful, powerful stuff. And I, I think unlocking your hidden genius is such a, such a great concept. I think it’s such a beautiful concept for her. Of course, the the title of her book is risk forward. And then she dropped that into the subtitle, embrace the unknown and unlock your hidden genius. And I th I just think that unlock your hidden genius is such a great concept and take creative risk is such a clear message. It’s profound. It’s going to be something that sticks with me. I hope that it sticks with you. Thanks for being here. Keep coming back. Lots of great, great insights coming from our guests. I’m so inspired by them. I hope that you’re inspired by them. I also am inspired. Our team is inspired most of all by you and who you are becoming and what you are being prepared to do. So keep coming back, we’ll catch you next time. Bye. Bye.

Ep 156: How to Unlock Your Hidden Genius with Victoria Labalme

RV: (00:00)

Hey, brand builder Rory Vaden here. Thank you so much for tuning in to listen to this interview, we are so excited to bring you this information and wanted to let you know that, Hey, there’s no sales pitch coming from anything that we do with this is all our value add to you and the community. However, if you are somebody who is looking for specific strategies on how to build and monetize your personal brand, we would love to talk to you and we offer a free call to everyone that’s interested in getting to know us and is willing to give us a chance to get to know them and share a little bit about what we do. So if you’re interested in taking us up on a free strategy call, you can do that at brand builders, group.com/summit call brand builders, group.com/summit. Call. Hope to talk to you soon on with the show.

RV: (01:04)

I love when I get to introduce you to some of my oldest friends and mentors and people that I’ve looked up to for years. And that is the case with Victoria Labalme. She is a hall of fame speaker, which is how I know her from the national speakers association. Someone that I admired for years and somebody that I would say is truly one of the best platform presenters on the planet. And it all speaks to what she does. I mean, she was a performing artist who was originally trained directly under the world, renowned Marcel, Marceau. She is magnificent in keynotes. She, she has she’s the creator of programs that help people with this. But the reason that she’s on the show now is because she is releasing her first official, traditionally published book is called risk forward, embrace the unknown and unlock your hidden genius. And so we’re going to talk about building your personal brand in a world of uncertainty, accessing your energy genius, and just hearing her story about how she has built this extraordinary reputation and personal brand. So Victoria, welcome to the show.

RV: (02:13)

Hello, Rory. And hello everyone. I’m so happy to be here. Thank you for having me.

RV: (02:18)

Yeah, of course. Well, you know, we’ve got so many interconnectivity points you’ve been to our events before, right? So I it’s, it’s, it’s the people in our community should know about you and should meet you. And, and so I, I wanted to, I wanted to just kinda like start off with a little bit about your, your, your personal brand and the, the unlocking your energy genius or unlocking your hidden genius. Which is, I think one of your, one of your taglines of subtitle of the book. And I want to talk about the presentation part of things, because that, to me is like, you know, part of where you came from you and I have that shared interest in, and a lot of people listening, they’re either doing, you know, virtual webinars, virtual keynotes and stuff like that. And I think when it comes to making that pivot from onstage live in front of humans, to now virtual keynotes and webinars and things, how do you, how do you make that transition and what are some of the things that we can do to just kind of like still over deliver as presenters, even though a lot of what we’re doing these days is virtual.

Speaker 3: (03:32)

So great question. It’s really, how do we create the virtual experience to have some of the pizazz that we are used to? Well, it all begins with taking creative risks. I have a session I do call risking forward on camera. And, you know, if you think about what you can do on stage, what can be translated and there are all kinds of ways, you know, those are a lot of technology out there. The people are using E cam and green screen and different camera angles and different mikes and music and instruments. And part of what I like to help people do as well though, is really take what’s within them, their hidden genius and bring that out. So that’s your content and your creative expression that only you do in the way that you do that distinguishes your brand. That’s part of what risking forward is.

Speaker 3: (04:21)

How can you create and communicate with the unexpected twist, the unexpected twist that distinguishes your brand. And that’s a core tagline of mine because, you know, everyone can put up a green screen, but what can only you do and how can you do it in your own way? So that starts with your personality, your past your passion. I call it the prison effect in each of us is a full spectrum of colors. So one of the things that make you distinct and different, you know, what stories, what props, what examples, what physicality, what expressions, how do you pull? So you don’t look from it, look, look like everyone else from everyone else’s perspective.

RV: (04:59)

Yeah. And I, you know, that’s interesting in terms of, it’s not so much an external thing of like a camera angle or lighting, or, you know, something fancy I’m doing on the screen, but you’re talking about accessing the internal uniqueness or you know, one of the terms we use around brand builders group all the time, which I originally got from you is through line. And this, this idea of the through line of your, of your message. We usually talk about that term related to your content. But like when you say a take take that, you know, take a creative risk, what is the thing that only I can do? How do I find that? Or is it just asking, okay, what stories can I tell that are unique to me? What props can I use? What physicality does it basically just come by asking myself those questions and then base it, then, then just giving myself permission to just go, yeah. Let’s act on that crazy idea. I mean, is it as simple as that?

Speaker 3: (05:58)

Well, yeah. I mean, part of it is trusting that the, the things that are different and weird about you are often valuable. I mean, Sally hogs had our good friend has a whole phrase called you know, different is better, you know?

RV: (06:14)

It is better than better. I love, I love that. Yeah, that is such a great line. Different is better.

Speaker 3: (06:19)

Oh, you meant different as being better for a long time. And it’s just, it’s true. Not, you know, not in a terrible way, but it there’s so much value. And what happens is, and I talk about this in the book risk forward. And I talk about this in my program, rock the room is we shave off parts of who we are to fit into a mold. So for me, I’m extremely physical and, you know, they’re all kinds of things I can do with my body, but other people are more visual, you know, and some people have instrumental skills and some people have comedic skills. So it’s really access to what’s unique and different to you. And bringing that out in terms of taking those creative risks. I always encourage people to do what I call is a micro risk, because you don’t want to go out in front of a thousand people on a zoom or on a video recording or a webcam and try something new for the first time.

RV: (07:05)

Oh, this I’m glad you’re saying this. Cause I was going to ask you about this. So you’re, you’re, you’re not testing it out in front of like, you know, the largest audience you’ve ever been in front of them.

Speaker 3: (07:15)

Right? I mean, any comedian will tell you two things. Number one, and this is my background is a performing artist, a comedian and a movement artist is that, you know, you’re either going to do one of two things. You’re either putting new content between two time-tested pieces of material. So that if it sags, if you tank your out quickly, so you put it in there and then you recover. But more importantly than that, the first time you do it should not be in front of your biggest, most important audience comedians tour their work across the country, in small clubs before they bring it to Broadway, same thing with shows. And it’s the same for us as presenters. What we do is we try it out with a few friends. We tried it with a couple of colleagues. Is it working? We refine it over time and we increased the size of that audience.

RV: (07:59)

Yeah. I mean, it’s funny cause I, I literally my, my original Toastmasters club, which is where, you know, like my speaking journey started cherry Creek Toastmasters. They last night I sent them a video. They asked, they asked if I would do a video of what, 15 years later, how it shaped my life. And I told them that my best jokes today are the ones that I originally wrote. The first renditions are versions for my icebreaker speech in front of eight people at my, like my local Toastmaster club. And you know, I think that’s interesting. I mean, you’re, you’re saying that as like every comedian knows, but I that’s a good reminder even for me. And I’m sure some people listening have never heard that, like don’t put new content, like put it in between two things so that you can recover and don’t test it out, like on, on the world’s biggest stage.

RV: (08:54)

So think that’s, I think that’s handy now on the topic of risk in general, risking is risky. And so I think, no matter if it’s even just writing a book or even doing a virtual presentation or maybe talking about a different topic or going live, like is a big thing right now, like it’s risky to go live on social because you don’t know it. You can’t add it. Talk to me about the emotional side of dealing with risk or managing risk. Even it could be in a business like, Hey, I wanna, I want to launch a new funnel or do something I’ve never done paid advertising. All of these concepts are, there is a fear of uncertainty, which I know is more about what risk forward is kind of about. So like how do I navigate the emotional side of, of uncertainty?

Speaker 3: (09:48)

Right? Well, I’ll start by explaining where the term risk forward was born. Years ago, as you benched in my introduction, I studied with the French mime, Marcel Marceau, and people love to joke, Oh, you’re a speaker, but you studied mine, which is a stupid joke. You want

RV: (10:08)

It actually took me a second to get it. I was like, what? Oh, Oh, okay. Okay. Now I see now I see.

Speaker 3: (10:14)

Yeah. I always tell people, be careful not to say the obvious because you lower your status. It’s like, if someone’s laughing,

RV: (10:21)

Right. That is so funny. I’ve never heard that. I love that. That’s funny.

Speaker 3: (10:27)

Yeah, no, it’s true. If someone’s really tan, don’t say you’re really tan. If someone’s last name is hamburger, don’t make a joke about it. Like, cause they’ve, they’ve guaranteed. They’ve heard it. So have I heard mom jokes? Yes. Do I need to hear them? No, because when I do, I’m like, okay, you’re now in the category of a certain

RV: (10:45)

Type. You’re that guy. You’re

Speaker 3: (10:46)

That guy. So you don’t want to be that guy. In any event. I studied with Marcel Marceau and there was a type of movement. He called he scab, they schema. And it was, it was a way of being almost like the sale of a boat. You know, you were arched open with the wind, your body. And for those of you listening, who can’t see me, I’m my body is arched open, like the wind. And it was, it felt very exposed, a little scary. And I’ve come to think of that as a philosophy for how we approach our work in our life. And I returned it risk forward and trademarked it years ago. And it’s really how do we go forward heart open, even if we’re a little off balance because the mistake that we each make and part of what I address in the book is that we think we should always be clear.

Speaker 3: (11:35)

We think we should always have a plan. We think we must have a goal if we’re going to succeed. And having worked with so many people from top executives at Starbucks and PayPal, these are my clients, the C-suite at these companies like Microsoft Starbucks, PayPal entrepreneurs, running multi-million dollar brand. Speaking on Oprah’s stage artists from Hollywood. I’ve learned that many of them didn’t always have clarity or a plan. And so while it’s good to have some idea, sometimes you can meet with great success without always knowing where you’re heading and we all have that experience in our lives. And that’s what risking forward is about. And it’s lots of stories and examples and tools and principles from the arts to help you navigate through that. Not knowing through that period of uncomfortable near miss discomfort to find your best way forward. And so whether it’s to your point, you know, you’re launching a new funnel or you’re putting together a new blog or podcast, there’s a ton of unknown. And what we do is often as we grasped for like the, the, the simplest the most convenient way out or what everyone else is doing instead of finding what’s original to us, even if it’s not been done before.

RV: (12:52)

Hmm. I love that. And the, the, that con that was re re is the translation of what Marcel used to say, is it, does it translate directly as risk forward or is it not really the direction?

Speaker 3: (13:11)

Not really. I mean, it was my interpretation of it. I mean, this is obviously risk and Evonne means in front of

RV: (13:17)

Huh. Huh. Yeah. But that’s,

Speaker 3: (13:20)

If all means before or in front of, so huh.

RV: (13:24)

So, but that, that concept of, of, of even just applying these principles of the arts to the way that we live and the way we make business decisions is to kind of like, be willing to almost like listen to the way you feel pulled in the direction and not necessarily just what is clear because it’s of what has been done before. And that’s why, I mean, in a COVID like in a world of COVID, I mean, this is our life. I mean, our, everything, like in this moment, at the time of this recording, which is before your book is coming out, we are living in a complete world of uncertainty. Like nobody knows what’s going to happen next month or in the next six months, it’s just like, this is the world that we, that we live in. And so it seems like somehow, and I would say this about you as a friend that you you’ve been able to give yourself that permission to just kind of like explore the wonder of that rather than to fight against it. Is that yeah. Would that be accurate to say

Speaker 3: (14:30)

It is accurate to say, and my life is I I’m pleased and humbled to say that my life has been extraordinary. The career I’ve had, the successes I’ve had, the personal successes I’ve had have led so many people to say to me, how’d you get to where you are? What was your plan? And I always say, I didn’t have a plan. You know, I did what was next. And I learned that in my life for my parents. And I’m here to tell you, I am living proof. And the people in the book are living proof that there are all kinds of other ways forward and it’s freeing to people it’s freeing. And I think it also depends on what you value, because if, if you know, if what you’re after is status you might not take as many risks and it oddly it’s the risk taking.

Speaker 3: (15:20)

That’s going to get you there. You know, and same thing with finance. You know, if, if you’re trying certain mechanisms to generate a ton of sales, but the word, my word back to the, your through line is not pure. It’s not going to last long. And so we’re always coming back to what’s, what’s truthful, what’s that inner current, and this may sound woo, but I have worked with the top executives, as I mentioned, and this translates and it is redirected companies. It is redirected teams, it’s redirected entrepreneurs and artists of all kinds to come back to that because it’s the pure path forward.

RV: (16:02)

You know, I would, I would second that, yeah, there is one of my friends here in Nashville is a guy named Jerry Jeremy coward, who is he is an artist. He is one of the best photographers in the world and shoots Taylor Swift. He shot the Pope. I mean, just amazing. And I remember one time you know, he liked did this, there were some fires in Tennessee and he went and took pictures of the houses that burned down and just to like showcase to the world, like how devastating this was. And I asked him, I was like, dude, where did you come up with the idea to do it? And he said, he said, I just felt it. I just had it. And he said that everybody has those crazy ideas. The difference between me and everyone is I actually listened to them. That’s right. And, and Jeremy is an artist. And I would say, right right now I have two personal friends that are billionaires which is a recent thing. I’ve, I’ve interviewed several of them, but there’s actually two that I now know personally and interact with on a fairly regular basis. And I would say these are business billionaires, like business. And I would say, this is true about them. Yes. They

Speaker 3: (17:12)

Literally, in both

RV: (17:14)

Cases, they were both told that what they were doing was stupid. It made no sense. It was ridiculous. It would never ever work. And so it’s like, there’s not that much different know. I think being an entrepreneur is being an artist.

Speaker 3: (17:31)

Yeah, absolutely. And that’s the argument I make in the book and exactly that the successes we’ve each had. And I think anyone listening can think back on their lives, some of the most extraordinary successes that you’ve had happened when you were following that. And there are many, many stories of that when you took that creative risk, even though you didn’t know where it was going to lead, but it felt like the right thing to do either morally ethically, or just creatively curiosity wise. And that, as I always say to my clients, one of three things will happen when you risk forward. And they’re all good either. You’ll discover the ideas. Terrific. And it’ll come out to be something like your friend with the photographs. Yeah. Number two, it will be the step that leads to the next one. And so you’ll realize that wasn’t quite it, but it took you down the right path and you wouldn’t have seen the right path.

Speaker 3: (18:22)

Had you not taken that step. For my case, it was doing standup comedy. I thought, Oh, this is my thing. This is many, many years ago. I took that step forward and I realized that wasn’t it. But it was actually my trying to get into a comedy club show. It was, I was trying to audition for the HBO Aspen comedy festival. And I was in a comedy clubs thinking that was my path. And someone from the speaking world saw me and said, Victoria, you should come and be a speaker who would have thought, so it’s following that steps. That’s the second thing. And the third possibly the most important of all is that they say the number one regret of the dying is that they didn’t take more risks. People say, I lived life on other people’s terms. I didn’t take the risk I want, and I never tried X or Y or Z. And you don’t want to die. Wishing you taken more risks. So risking forward is all about finding what’s ahead by stepping forward into it. Even if you don’t know.

RV: (19:21)

Mm. How do you balance this idea of having a plan? Cause that’s something we do. I do this in my life. We teach people to do it as like we do set targets. We do have goals. We do, you know, we have a budget for our company that we have to operate by. Like, you know, there’s, there are KPIs and there are, you know, new initiatives and we have project management and you know, these are things we do that have helped us scale at least to where we have been. How do you balance the idea of goals and planning, but also what you’re saying, which is more of, of risk-taking. And I, I, you know, I, I think an intuition or creativity, like how do you reconcile these two? Or do you, do you think one is right and one is wrong? Or do you, do you think there’s some type of a balance and how do you, how do you find your way there?

Speaker 3: (20:17)

Yeah, that’s a great question. I think it’s a, it’s a both and type of scenario. I’m all for goals and plans and clarity. And I have that with this book. I have this with projects in my business and in my personal life, what I’m addressing is the in-between when we’re between moments of clarity. So let’s say you’re coming up with the plan for your year, or you’re coming up with how you want to approach your new podcast. Are you new speaker demo or your new blog as you’re in what I call in the book, the fog of not knowing it’s how you embrace that fog embrace the unknown. As I say, in the subtitle of the book that will determine your success. And most people are so uncomfortable with not knowing that they want to make a plan as quickly as possible. And that’s where we screw up.

Speaker 3: (21:07)

So in a personal life, it’d be like the woman who’s 29, who says she has to get married by the time she’s 30 looks around, sees her two viable candidates and picks one, even though it’s not right, that’s you see that happen all the time. I have many friends who got married because they were scared and they wanted something in place. And 10 years later they’re divorced and it’s messy. The same thing in our work. We don’t want to be in the phase of not knowing people are afraid. So they make a decision really quickly. I’m going to go this direction or we’re going to do that. And when we make that commitment, the potential for loss opportunity, cost stress, money, time, creative expression that goes down the tubes. And we’ve all had those moments in our lives where we’ve committed to something out of fear, because we want to look clear and everyone else is doing it.

Speaker 3: (21:55)

And then two years later, or two months later, we realize what was propelling us forward was not something from within and something that lit us up, but something that we thought we should do from the outside. And that’s what I want to help people save themselves from, because I have seen it around the world and I’ve spoken around the world and Japan and Brazil and France, there’s so much that’s lost and there’s so much sameness homogeneity and you see it in all industries and this is risky for it is all about breaking through that and doing it the way only you can.

RV: (22:29)

Yeah. I mean, I think this message of taking creative risk is going to stick with me. And gosh, there’s just so many examples of this in, in my life. And it it’s such a relevant time for this conversation. Cause we like are living in such uncertainty right now. And yet that’s why like there’s more millionaires made in down markets than ever before, is all these opportunities emerge. And if you just kind of like listen to it and step in that direction. So I wanna, I want to tell everybody this, all right now this won’t apply to all of you because we’re releasing this episode before Victoria’s book comes out. And if you happen to hear this in this, this little window, so your book, your book comes out on March 16th. And if you, if you go now either way, you’re going to get some good things.

RV: (23:24)

But if you go before March 16th if you go to risk forward.com forward slash book, there are some incredible bonuses that she is giving away. Both here on the emotional side related to, you know, like working through uncertainty, but also there’s some real practical things related to some of her in terms of being a physical performer, which are just extraordinary. So if you go to risk forward.com forward slash book, by the way, if you’re international, you can also order, which is rare. She’s got an international thing set up. If it’s after that date, it’s totally fine. You could still go there. You’re going to get some bonuses and some extra resources that she has included. But if you get this before, you’ve got a little window to go to go check it out. So risk forward.com forward slash book is where we will, we will put it.

RV: (24:16)

I am, I’m giving a shameless plug here for my friend that I’ve known for years who you can see just her, her wisdom and, and how graceful and in touch she is with exploring this artistic side. And I believe that it will help you unlock your hidden genius. And that’s why I want to encourage you to at least go check it out. Right. plus it’s a great opportunity as always to go see how someone is executing her pre-launch and doing her launch and how she does her book website. So other than that, Victoria, is there anywhere you would point people to or anything you want to leave us with?

Speaker 3: (24:53)

Yeah. Well, that’s it, that’s the website. We have an amazing video up there. That’s one minute and 40 seconds, which shows a bit more of what the book looks like, because here’s the thing. This is not a typical book. It breaks the mold of what a book is. It’s an experience. Every page is different. You can read the book in any order. Each chapter is unique unto itself. There isn’t a book like this that I’ve seen. It is my ability of bringing through. And this is what I want you each do for yourself. Take your different sides. I took my background in arts and in performance and in poetry and in business and an entrepreneurship. And I put it all together into a book experience. That’s my style. What’s your style? How do you do it? Not like me, but like you. And so check out the book, not to copy it because that would be a bummer.

Speaker 3: (25:42)

Cause it wouldn’t be you, but to do what you do in the way only you can and that’s, what’s going to distinguish you. So this is all about, as I say, in the book at the edge of not knowing, cause I didn’t know how I was going to do this book in the beginning, but then it became clear as I stepped into it. So at the edge of not knowing is the beginning of the extraordinary. So trust yourself, risk forward, put those ideas out there. I have tons of tools in the book for how to do that. I’m so excited if you’re ordering this before the book launches, we have a book team that you can be part of you get inside behind the scenes of what’s happening. But thank you worry for having me. I’m so happy to be here. You’re a stellar human being. Love it.

RV: (26:25)

Thank you, Victoria. We wish you all the best with your launch and far, far beyond. And you know, we’ll be, we’ll be watching closely. So good luck. Thank you.

Ep 153: Fear Fighting and Being Bold with Luvvie Ajayi Jones | Recap Episode

Woo Luvvie Ajayi Jones is fire she’s fire professional troublemaker, the fear fighter manual with our good friend and client Luvvie Ajayi Jones, which I’m so proud of Luvvie. I mean, you have a woman right now who is blowing up. She’s a rolling stone, viral Ted talks, explosive speaking fees best-selling books, exponential growth on social media. She’s doing projects with Brene Brown levy. We are so proud of you and honored to just see you doing what you’re doing and to feel like we have a little bit of a front row seat. And for you making us look better than we deserve because you are just awesome. And what a great interview this was. Obviously I’m, I’m so low with you this time. AJ, wasn’t able to join us tonight. But I am just on fire from that interview with Lovie. And I love the thing that she said, in fact, this is, this is my first, this is my first of my three key takeaways is that courage is contagious.

Courage is contagious. Who are you borrowing courage from? And who are you? Loaning courage to what a great, powerful, simple idea on both sides on both sides. There is, is this idea that there are there when you feel scared when you feel weak, when you feel unsure, when you feel uncertain, when you feel like you’re, you’re facing the unknown, when you don’t know what to do, you can borrow courage from the bold. There are people around you that you can borrow courage from. And I think that’s the part of the power of the human experience is this transference of emotion that comes from just being in relationship with others. And, and man, I feel that I draw that from her. I mean, I’m, as she’s talking, I’m literally drawing that from her. And then also equally as powerful, probably more powerful is who are you loaning courage to?

Who are you loading courage to? Who are you being strong enough for? Who are you supporting? How are you emitting, emoting? Transferring power and energy is strength and courage and bravery and bold because you are, you know, you’re transmitting something, you are putting off some type of energy. You are affecting the world around you, right? You’re either bringing them up or you’re bringing them down. You’re either making them stronger or you’re making them weak or you’re, you’re, I we’re either making the world around you more powerful or you’re making the world around. You feel more powerless. And that is a choice that you get to choose and I get to choose in every single moment. And I love that. It’s just such a great, such a great reminder of the human experience, this, this, you know, what it means to be, to be alive.

Courage is contagious, all emotion, all energy is contagious. We are balls of energy. I mean, we, that is what we are. So don’t forget that. And, and don’t forget to summon that, right? So be that for someone and also some in that and draw from it. If you, if you, if you need it, the second big takeaway for me that I really loved. Well, here’s what, here’s what Luvvie said. She said if, if it is perpend, if, if, if it is purpose-driven and it is my obligation to be myself, right? She said, it’s my obligation to be myself, which I really, I really do love, I, I like this idea that it’s, it’s like your responsibility is to live into everything that you were created to be, to be the person that nobody else can be it to be more of who you are.

I love, I love what one of our good friends, Sally Hogshead always says that she says you become more fascinating by becoming more of who you are. And I think Luvvie is a great example of that. She’s a real life example of just living into who she is, but, but I wanted to adapt you know, for me in terms of how I I get, I get, I get the luxury of being able to go back and listen, and then think about how I’m gonna apply this stuff to my life. And I, I, I’m going to adapt it a little bit for me to say my obligation isn’t to myself. I see it as my obligation is to my purpose, right? So, so, you know, I am here for something you are here for, and the longer I’m around, the more that I am convinced that the reason that I am here and I have this hypothesis, that the reason that you are here also is, is not so much for yourself.

It is for yourself in the context of someone else, that the reason we go through the pain that we go through is because of how we are going to transform that and apply that in the future to someone else, that the reason that we have to learn the things that we learn is because one day we’re going to teach it to somebody else. The reason that we have the victories that we have is because one day, those victories are going to become courage, that we lend that as contagion to somebody else that, that the achievement and the title and the awards and the, and the followers and the likes and the, whatever the, the worldly measurements are, are quite insignificant, quite trivial, and quite unsustainable in terms of their ability to bring you joy and satisfaction and, and depth of fulfillment.

And yet, ironically, the thing that brings us deep joy, deep fulfillment, deep satisfaction, it’s not something that takes decades and decades to accomplish. It’s not something that requires us to be a celebrity or to be credible, or to have thousands of followers or big fancy titles, or, or, you know, lots of know, whatever world worldly, victories, or bullet points in our biography to display. The thing that gives us the greatest deepest satisfaction is to serve another life, to have my life matter and make a difference to another, not necessarily to go viral to millions of people, but to, to have it mattered to one. And if you follow me on this, and part of where my hypothesis comes from is that I’ve tried all sorts of worldly, worldly things. I’ve pursued all sorts of worldly things. And, and honestly, I’ve accomplished a lot of those worldly things.

And yet found they fall short, nothing, nothing quite delivers on the feeling and the satisfaction and the joy in the fulfillment of serving another, which is your purpose that is obligation not to yourself. I mean, it is to yourself and the way that you’re living out your purpose. But I think of it more of it is in the context of who I am supposed to be for another. That is where power just comes from. That is where you’re unstoppable, because it’s not about you. Like, you’re not, you’re not looking for any selfish gain. It’s, it’s literally, how can I serve, how can I be of help and, and to elevate my purpose above me and beyond me to surrender to this idea, almost almost that I don’t matter, but my purpose matters. And inside of that incredible sort of surrender is this extraordinary strength, this unshakable conviction, this unending power that can’t be weakened. It can’t be soft. And because it’s not about you, it’s simply about your obligation, you’re living in the obligation of fulfilling your purpose.

Hm that’s good. So that’s, that’s my second takeaway. You know, first takeaway courage is contagious. Second takeaway that my obligation is to my purpose. And then my third takeaway is something, again, sort of a derivative of something that Luvvie said, I guess so much energy from her. And she said, you know, I want my book to, to, to be, to give people permission, to be themselves, what a beautiful premise and an an, a beautiful aspiration and a beautiful intention that she would give us permission to be ourselves. And I agree with this, that the more that you can stand in the center of who you are, the more powerfully and deliberately and quickly, you will be able to move people. What do you have to be able to stand in the center of who you are to, to, to be comfortable allowing yourself, to be yourself, allowing yourself, to be seen for who you are, allowing your, your thoughts and your ideas to be heard for what they are being unashamed of, of hiding anything or adapting anything or tailoring any, anything you know, except to the extent by which it enables you to serve your purpose, but it is to just stand boldly in the center of who you were born to be.

And that’s what lights people up. That’s what cats sets the world on fire. That is what lovey I believe is saying when she’s saying professional troublemaker, because the world seems to favor the bolt. The world seems to favor the clear, the world seems to favor the risk takers. The, the, the people who are, are, are willing to put themselves out there and willing to seek, to say, and to set and to seek some dream or journey or destination. And so I think the confidence to do that and the power to do that comes in your ability to stand in the center of who you are and what your purpose is and who you were born to be. That’s all we got for this recap edition of the influential personal brand podcast. Be bold, be courageous, be purpose-driven be obligated to become the best of what you are meant to be. Thanks for allowing us to encourage you on your journey. We’ll catch you next time on the influential personal brand.

Ep 152: Fear Fighting and Being Bold with Luvvie Ajayi Jones

Hey brand builder Rory Vaden here. Thank you so much for tuning in to listen to this interview. We are so excited to bring you this information and wanted to let you know that, Hey, there’s no sales pitch coming. From anything that we do with this is all our value add to you and the community. However, if you are somebody who is looking for specific strategies on how to build and monetize your personal brand, we would love to talk to you and we offer a free call to everyone that’s interested in getting to know us and is willing to give us a chance to get to know them and share a little bit about what we do. So if you’re interested in taking us up on a free strategy call, you can do that at brand builders, group.com/summit. Call brand builders, group.com/summit. Call. Hope to talk to you soon on with the show.

I love Luvvie Ajayi and you are, this is the second time we’ve had her back on the show.

You left the Jones out Rory!

That’s right. You’re Jones now, too. I can’t believe that I should have said that. Lovey Ajayi Jones. Now she’s a married woman. Yeah, coolest wedding ever, by the way. Pictures on social were awesome. But so Luvvie is a friend she’s a New York times bestselling author. Her first book was called I’m Judging You the Do Better Manual. She has a viral Ted talk that has I think like 5 million, more, more views than mine, which makes me also a little bit jealous.

5.6 million. I just checked today.

She is, co-authoring a book an anthology with Bernay Brown, which is pretty awesome and a whole bunch of awesome people. She has hundreds of thousands of people following her on social and through her blog. She’s, she’s been you know, one of the OG bloggers for like 15 years, she hosts a a fantastic podcast.

And the reason that we’re talking to her now is she has a new book out called professional troublemaker, the fear fighter manual, which is all about overcoming fear and living audaciously. And so when lovey was here, the first time we talked more about like the technical parts of how she built her audience over years I don’t know what episode number that is, but we’ll put a link to it in the show notes back to that first episode, but we didn’t really talk about, which is what we’re going to talk about today is the emotional side and, and the kind of like mental side of putting yourself out there and overcoming fear when it comes to building your personal brand. So anyways, Luvvie Ajayi Jones, welcome to the stage.

Thank you so much for having me back.

Yeah. Well, all right. So let’s talk about fight and fear, the fear fighter. And I have to say one of the things there’s so many things I love about you, that I admire about you. There’s a thing specifically that I think you have, like one of the things that you have that I think I wish I had more of was boldness. I think that that’s, that’s held me back in terms of, you know, my ability to grow on social to not be as pointy and sharp as I probably could. And, and I think part of the reason why is because I am scared of being judged, right? Like I am scared of what people will think and et cetera. And anyways, I think that anyone building a personal brand has some of that, except you don’t seem to, you just like, have such so much confidence and boldness, like, how do you do that? Where does that come from? Like, were you born with it? Or can I learn it?

I think it can be learned, but I think I was born with some of it. Some of it, I think the boldness of it all that I show up as, like I say, what other people are thinking, but they’re not to say, it’s not that I’m not afraid of being judged is that I realized that being judged is not the worst case scenario. It’s one of those things that is a foregone conclusion. If you aren’t going to be somebody of notes and create, and be somebody of impact, you will either repel people or also loved them like, or, or, or be loved deeply by them. There’s no middle ground to be able to be loved deeply by people means your whole character, how you will show up will also repel some people. Some people will judge you for it. Some people will not connect with you.

And that’s fine. I always think about the people who am deeply loved by the people who, when I write, when I speak, say you just took the thoughts up my head, put it on paper, thoughts. I didn’t even realize I had now. I think a lot of us have the tendency to swallow away what we want to do and how we want to show up because of that fear of judgment. We’re afraid of somebody not liking us or, Oh my gosh, I’m afraid of how somebody else is going to take this thing. And I think for me, growing up, I come from a family and a culture Nigerians are culturally loud and really just boisterous.

I was gonna say, when I introduced you, I was like, you’re my favorite Nigerian friend. But then I was like, unfortunately, I don’t, you might be my only Nigerian friend, And I was like, well, that sucks. That’s not good for you or for me. But anyways, I think you’ve, you definitely hold that title, but I need some more Nigerian friends. But anyways, you are my, you are my favorite.

I’m just the gateway Nigerian for you. Don’t worry.

I’m the gateway. Nigeria, you will find other Nigerians through me. But I think we’re very boisterous as a culture, like growing up, who I was, was never told to be less. I was given permission to be bold. I was a four year four, or five-year-old who, when I got in trouble, I would challenge my mother about it. I’d be like, I don’t think it was fair. I here’s the part that I think was not fair to me. And even though I’m sure I got on her nerves, she never did

I’m not going to let Jasper listen to this episode. Just so you know,

Jasper, let him have it. Let him have it.

He’s not gonna listen to this one.

I used to literally be like, mom, I’ll accept the punishment. I’ll take it. Whatever the punishment was. And then after the fact, I circle back with a note telling her my perspective, telling her why I didn’t think it was fair telling her why I think I was wrong. Okay. And it’s funny, like she never told me not to be that person. So I grew up not doubting that person that I was, I grew up not doubting my voice. And I think the power of that is that the boldness became less of a, I have to push myself to be this. It became my default. And one of the things that we can learn in being more bold is being pragmatic about the, our purpose and our I in, in what we’re doing in this world is you, you create a whole business on helping people solve a problem.

And you, one of the things that you pointed out that I do is I help solve the problem of powerlessness and the way I do it is through my boldness. I show up in a certain way and people get to see and say, if she can do it, maybe I can do something close too. Maybe I can also be myself. So in learning, the boldness honestly comes in just watching other people do it. Rory, like you were on, you were on a thing with the cohort that I had, where we talked about brand building and the last five minutes of you being on. I told my team afterwards, I was like, we have to put this as an episode of the podcast, because in that moment, it’s like, you borrowed boldness from me. How you actually showed up that day was way more bold than I’ve actually typically seen you.

And what that lets me know is, I guess we can borrow other people’s traits or the people that were around will infuse certain things into us, which lets me know that we can actually do it even when they’re not there. So like you came and gave such, it was so pointed. You’re typically very pointed, but on that day, your energy was different. It was so like strong. And so I’m just going to say this thing because I need you guys to understand why it’s important for you to stand in your purpose and you came with full fire and I’m just like, Rory’s typically very chill, very like, Hey, but you came with fire and I was like, okay, it can be done. And you do do it. It just shows up differently.

Yeah. I mean that, that really is true. I mean, I do feel like it is it is contagious and you, when you see someone else doing it, I mean, now let me just ask you this. Like, I’ve just been curious about asking you this and you don’t have to answer if we, if we, if we tread into water that you don’t feel comfortable about, but you are very outspoken about personal beliefs. You know, like you’ve got this X, you got expertise around helping people live audaciously and chase down fear. You also share a good bit of your political viewpoints and whatever socioeconomic or whatever you want to call it. Cultural, cultural beliefs. Do you, do you wrestle with the idea, first of all, I’m curious, do you actually wrestle and go, do you ever wonder, should I post this or does that, do you not even have that filter? Do you just go, Oh hell no. If I’m thinking it it’s coming out and if you do have a filter, how do you kind of determine what passes through the filter of going, like, does this serve my audience somehow? Does it, does it align with my business goals? Or like just how like, yeah. So is there a, is there a filter? And if there is tell us like what, what that is?

Yes. I have been blogging for 18 years at this point, half of my life. Wow. I started blogging in 2003. And when I started, there was no strategy behind it, but I think as I got bigger, as I finally called myself a writer, as my platform got bigger, I started understanding what was happening was kind of like the unfolding of purpose. And as my platform got bigger, I didn’t change my voice. What I did change, what changed was my level of responsibility in how I was showing up, like, right. Like when I had 300 followers, I could say whatever I wanted into the ether, it didn’t matter today. I can’t say whatever I want. Right. I, it has to be, it has to be way more thoughtful. So I do absolutely have a filter in how I say something. What I jump into as a cultural critic, as a side-eye source risk as a writer is shady Nigerian.

I think having the filter is good. Like it’s really good. You have to have a way to figure out when you’re not gonna just be impulsive and saying something just to say something I want to always make sure I’m not just speaking because I want my voice heard because I just feel like talking. So that’s why I have three questions that I ask myself whenever I want to say something. Especially when it feels like I’m going into territory, that could be contentious. And the first question is, do I mean it, like, am I actually saying this thing? Cause this is my belief. So too, can I defend it? If I am challenged on it? Can I actually back it up? Can I stand in it? Cause here’s the thing is the judge will be judged and then three, can I say thoughtfully?

So all of these are important because if I say yes to all three, I decided to say it, the third question of, can I say thoughtfully is really important because then it’s what makes it come out more thoughtful. It’s what makes it come out without, with as little as possible hate. Right? And I, and I, and I hope I never operate with hate, but I always try to figure out what is the way to say this that will land the best, or do I think it’s going to land the best now with my three filters, these three questions quantifying my decisions. It’s not with the guarantee that whatever I say will be like, well received. It’s just a risk mitigator. It is just a way for me to create some criteria to at least anything that doesn’t pass. I don’t say it out loud. If, if it’s not passing the three questions, I’m not saying it, but then if it does pass and I say it here’s the thing.

It can still go weird where somebody is like, Oh, I don’t like this thing you said, or, Oh my gosh, this is what I took away from it. And I think those are the moments where we have to understand that we are not here to appease everybody. It’s not our responsibility to make everybody comfortable or to make everybody feel good, because we were really nice that day. I think our responsibility is to do what we were put here for. And a lot of times that thing is going to run a foul of somebody because if it is purpose-driven, it’s pretty strong in some way, you know, they’re going to be people who are going to be like, I just don’t like what she just said, just because it’s Monday or Tuesday. But I think once my filter runs through, I go, that’s my obligation. My obligation is to myself, have I done my own job of making sure I’m showed up as best as possible if I have. Hey,

And so then how do you balance this? Right? The, so on the, on the one end, it’s like you’re unapologetic, you’re bold, you’re audacious. But then even, even you, you’re saying there is a level of discernment or filtering or you know, might even use the word diluted or like the, that you’re, you’re tempering, you’re tempering it, you’re tempering it some, some somehow. And you know, I guess I’m just trying to, I, I, I’m asking because I’m genuinely interested for me. Like sometimes I feel like I’m too tempered. Like I’m too safe. I’m too, I’m too comfortable. I’m too afraid to like stir up whatever. But then I think, you know, I also see much the danger and the risk of like, ah, yeah, go on too far or whatever. And, and so I, what I hear you saying is that basically, it’s just, you got to just stay centered in your purpose, what you believe that you were put here to say, and then just say that as cleanly and loudly as you can,

That’s it that’s really it. And honestly, it’s not even a case of temporary or sensory myself. It’s that the sermon is actually the right word for it. That is the right word for it. Getting the spirit of discernment because you know, when you’re young and you decide, Oh, I’m just going to just keep it real. Yeah. You’re probably going to be saying a lot of thoughtless things, but I think the older you grow, like again, the bigger the platform gets, you also have to wheel this power responsibility, like responsibility. So I, people who know me in real life and who like have known me since high school, we’ll read a piece I wrote and say, this sounds just like you still. So I always want to make sure that I am present in whatever I put forward. That even in my, as the a platform is getting bigger, nobody can say that doesn’t sound like lovey.

No, no, it’s always going to be me. I’m just being smarter about it. And that doesn’t mean I’m not cussing. That doesn’t mean I’m not showing any anger or strong opinions. I’m sure I’m still doing all of that. But I think I am a better thinker and a better writer and a better leader now than for sure, 10 years ago. And it’s not because I was censoring myself. It’s because this sermon, like the spirit of discernment is even better. I’m sharper about it. And I want you to not think too hard about going the other way. Like I see how you move, Roy, you straight you straight. Like you keep it nice and cool. But I think giving yourself permission to say what you truly believe is necessary, it’s necessary because you also have so many people who are watching you, who are listening to you and how you show up as amazing your words matter in a big way. So if I was to ever see you say something strong, I’ll know you actually meant it. And it would make me pay attention even more. I’d be like, wait a minute. Rory’s out here using caps. What?

Yeah. Well, it’s funny. Cause I saw you, you know, I made a post about my dad on his birthday about this story, about how I found my dad. And I noticed that you left a comment and a lot of people did it, and that was a very emotional, just like a very, a very real thing. So I, so let me ask you this. What are you afraid of right now? Or are you afraid like, like what’s going on right now that you are scared of?

You know, I have a fear of success.

We talked about fear of failure all the time. I think fear of success is just as real. And it’s part of the reason why I self-sabotage sometimes by procrastinating, I figured that out in therapy when my therapist was like, you’re PR, cause it was last year actually, when I was on the hook for finishing my book and I’d go into sessions and she blocked, so where are you with it? How’s it going? I’ll be like, yeah, about that. I didn’t really write anything this week. And one session she asked me, she was like, so why do you think you didn’t write anything this weekend? I was like, I don’t know. I didn’t have time. I was just sitting on the couch and she was like, could this be a form of self-sabotage? And I was like, what do you mean? She was like, what are you afraid of with this book that is making you stall on it? And I think I was afraid of like, what if the book did what I think it will do? Like what if it does somehow help a billion people conquer fear? Like how does that change my life? Do I, how does that level up change? What I what’s around me? Yeah. Fear of fear of success is real.

And so you’re saying that, you know, let’s, let’s say the book sells a million copies that forces you to live a different in a different way because your life at that level looks different than the way it does now. And that is, that is uncertain and that escape, it was scary.

Yeah. I have to hire more people and get it’s just, it’s like, are we, it’s the fear of like, am I equipped for the next level? Yeah.

And so how do you overcome that? Then?

When I say it out loud as a starting point, acknowledge it. I talked to people like you who know what level of look like I basically say and ground myself with some affirmations, that’s like, whatever you need, you got it. And I just ride the wave and I try to figure out the moments when I’m self-sabotaging, when I’m trying to pull myself back I talked to friends and yeah, I do all of that. It’s a, it’s a constant ritual of like, you got this, you got this. If you do have to hire more people, you got this, like, it’ll be fine. And again, like talking to and having, you know, a lot of friends who are really successful also trade war stories and say, Oh, I’ve been there. And because a lot of people who have come before us have already done this, they basically give you the map on how to navigate it. So I’m definitely leaning into my community. And my friends to just tell me what I need to do to get ready for a massive book coming out. Like you’ve been in the immense help. I’ve been talking to Glenn and Doyle, you know, talk to chase Jarvis and it’s just, just getting ready.

Well, I think so who did you write this book for? Okay. So taking it specifically back back to this book and you go, you know, the book’s called professional trouble troublemaker again, but the fear fighter manuals, the subtitle, which I just love. How, like, who is it targeted at? Who’s it, who’s it aimed at?

I wrote this book for me. I feel like this book was, was was something that I created for me because I like to create work that I need, you know, when I was afraid to call myself.

Yeah. See, like, I don’t think of you as being scared. So this is just the person you once were.

This is the person that I once where was, is can sometimes lean into some times. Like, I think, you know, we don’t just become bolded state both 24 seven. Right. We will have moments where we’ll go. Hmm. Should I think that big? Or should I actually say that thing? You will still have your moments of fear here. And their fear is not always about the big time. I think even in the small moments where you are afraid to say something that might feel scary. And I think I honestly wrote this book for me because I think about how 10 years ago, I was afraid to call myself a writer. I think about, you know, turning down my Ted talk twice because I didn’t think I was ready for it. I think about shoot now being afraid of what the level up looks like. You know, it’s a constant reminder.

And I think the best things that we do is when we create something that we need when we fill our own need. Because when we do that, we fill somebody else’s need. And I think for me, this is a book that I wish I had even last year when the pandemic happened and I’m sitting in my house like, Oh my gosh, what’s, what’s the world gonna look like? And I remember feeling convicted to be like finished this book because this book is what you need right now. So I think about people like me, like whether or not you’re bold or not, you know, people who have big dreams and who want to create impact in the world whose lives like their ideal lives, aren’t going to call for them to do or think bigger than they’re currently doing and who are going to need to be loaned courage from time to time.

So that’s why I really wrote this book for it. It’s the dreamers or the people who are still afraid to become the dreamers, the very pragmatic foot on the ground. Folks who were just like, you know what, I’m just going to do this one thing that feels easy, do it just really well. But what happens when people are given permission? Not just told they can be bold, not just told they can dream audaciously or speak the truth, but like told I need you to, I need you to speak the, I need you to dream audaciously. I need you to get a Nigerian friend. Okay. I need you to build the squad. You know? So I want my book to be permissioned for people. The permission they might not ever be given to be themselves to be too much, you know, to be too soft, if that’s who they are to be too hard, if that’s who they are. So it’s the permission.

And, and what about like lightened? You really like, do you, are you afraid of offending people?

Sometimes. Sometimes. And yeah, like there’s a, there’s a whole chapter in my book called failed loudly where I talk about my biggest public fail in how it knocked me off my square for a year, because something, I said offended thousands of people and how I recovered from it. But I realized that, and it actually also taught me the lesson of, it’s less about what you say and it’s more about people also projecting themselves onto you and it’s something you can’t control. That’s the part that’s frustrating, right? That’s the part that scares people. It’s like, how do I control it? How do I make sure nobody ever gets mad at me? And I was like, you can’t, you can say the sky is blue. And somebody, somebody somewhere would disagree and say, I’m offended. That’s actually red. And that’s why we cannot be tied strictly to the landing of everything that we say.

We can’t be tied strictly to other people’s thoughts and ideas of us, because it will move us away from our purpose. It’s why you have to know what your compass is. You gotta know what your center is and stand in it because people will want to move you off it. And it’s going to be up to you to kind of drill in and say, okay, I am growing as a person, but this is what I’m supposed to be doing. Like I’m supposed to becoming to help people think critically, I’m supposed to help people feel joy. And I’m supposed to basically compel them to leave the world better than they found it. And in that whole purpose driven life, I will be the villain. In some people’s stories. I will burn some bridges, but if at the end of it all, I actually left this world better than I found it. If I actually stood in my purpose and help people feel more powerful. If somebody somewhere can say, I heard you speak, or I read your book and it changed my life, then I’ve done my job.

I love it. I love it. Loving where she wants people to go. If they want to learn about professional troublemaker and learn about you and more like more of what you’re up to,

Yes, people can go to professional troublemaker, book.com. Pre-Order the book come to my book tour. I’m in conversation with seven people who I think are also living purpose driven lives that are huge and audacious and they can find me all over social media. I am at lovey L U V V I E one word on all platforms. Okay. I got the one screen name.

Okay. The Oprah level, you got lovey lovey.

That’s all you need to know. BBI

E is Luvvie. And I, you know, I really think that that’s interesting, you know, this term earlier that you can, that you loan people courage. And I think that’s what this book does. And I think that’s what you do. And you know, to that point of that last conversation where you had me in front of your audience is that you do give permission to people. And, and I think it is contagious and it’s like you loan you loan people courage. So if you’re listening and you don’t have courage and you need to borrow some courage, get some of Luvvie in a professional troublemaker, the fear fighter manual. Thank you for giving us permission to be more bold and to to be more courageous, lovey it’s, it’s really, it’s really fun and inspiring to watch.

Thank you so much for always sharing space with me, Roy, like you you’ve changed the game a little bit from you, Rory, you chase, the guy said something the other day. And I was like, that feels like a Rory fading quote. I was like, that sounds very Rory Vaden. I like it. Let’s keep it like,

That’s good. I love it. Well, we wish you the best, my friend. And we’ll look forward to staying tuned. Yes, indeed.

Ep 143: How Entrepreneurs Can Use Their Personal Brand to Grow Their Business with Liz Bohannon| Recap Episode

Hey, welcome to this special recap edition of the influential personal brand podcast. I’m Rory Vaden breaking it down so low. Our recap, this is a recap episode of Liz Forkin Bohannon and I am laughing because this episode cracked me up. I thought it was so funny because so, so here is my first, my, my first big takeaway. All right. So my first big takeaway was verbatim what Liz said, which actually has nothing to do with personal branding. Ubut I thought this was just so profound and powerful and relevant and poignant and, and wow. When she said a lot of the problems in the world can be solved with a good job. A lot of the problems in the world can be solved with a good job paying good money, providing good men benefits. And the reason I’m laughing is because this transformation, if you, if you listen to the interview, Liz talks about how she was like this nonprofit, bleeding heart, like change the world.

I’m going to go, you know, serve, serve people to becoming this extreme entreprenuer doing who’s launched now a huge direct sales, a business that she’s turned into a direct sales you know, multilevel marketing thing that, that she thought she invented the business model. And it’s just, it’s just hilarious. And it is in it’s awesome. And it’s profound about the idea that, you know, money, money solves problems, but not just giving people money, teaching people how to make money and creating an opportunity for people to make money. And that to me is just powerful. Again, it has nothing to do with personal branding, which we normally wouldn’t share as a takeaway, but I mean, I was inspired because I know that you probably, in some way, lead to the work that you do create jobs for people. And so often we think about like the audience that we’re impacting or speaking to are the people who are buying our products and services.

And we think about our own income, but I think this is a good reason and a good moment in time to pause and just go, thank you. And congratulations to all the entrepreneurs who create jobs, whether they’re full-time jobs or part-time jobs, whether as employees or contractors, but that the work that you’re doing as a, as an, as an entrepreneur, as an influencer, as an entrepreneur, maybe who works as part of a direct sales company, or even as an executive, a corporate executive at a big, at a big company, but that your personal brand is serving more than just you. And it is even serving more than your audience. Your personal brand is creating jobs and opportunity for a whole world of vendors and partners and contractors. And one day, you know, if you follow our model and we’re teaching it, you know, if you get to phase four where we talk about eight figure entrepreneur and scaling your personal brand, you’re going to be providing lots of jobs.

And that’s just awesome. That is awesome. That is another reason why we love serving you and, and helping people create jobs and businesses and side jobs and side hustles, and you know, work with people in direct sales because you, when you start a business, you create jobs. And as Liz says, a lot of problems in the world can be solved by providing a good job. So that was, that was a huge kind of unusual takeaway and, and rare takeaway from the event and just really profoundly impacted impacted me. And I just you know, I also find it hilarious kind of the transformation of this journey that she went on. And just, just awesome. So that’s great. So my second big takeaway from this, which is just magical is going if you’re an entrepreneur. And when I say we’re not for the purpose of this segment right here, when I say entrepreneur, I’m going to say that you’re a, I’m going to in quotation say a real entrepreneur.

And what I mean by that is going, you’re not just a personal brand, right? Like that you’re building and monetizing your face and your persona. But if you’re truly building a company and a, and a, and a brand name and company equity, and it’s not built around your face, most of what we do is, you know, the core of our target audience is people who are authors and speakers and coaches and trainers and consultants. And then, you know, our secondary, I think audience is more of like professional services and lawyers and accountants and, and doctors and financial advisors and real estate agents, and, and then direct sales. And then I think another big part of our audience is corporate executives. And then entrepreneurs like Liz, where Liz is main income is coming from her business, which is not selling speaking engagements and video courses and membership sites and books is from her job and the profits of her company and the salary that she draws. But if you’re a, if you’re that kind of an entrepreneur, I don’t real entrepreneur, maybe isn’t right, but it just, if you’re a classic entrepreneur or a true entrepreneur separate from being a personal brand,

Take notes of what she said about the power and the impact

And the significance and the

Value of free money

Marketing that personal branding provides to her company, to her corporation, to her brand, to her business, to her, her logo, to her, her, her exit value to her, to her asset that is this business that she has built. It, you know, she said, it’s remarkable if she could, if she could quantify the amount of free marketing opportunity that she has had for her company because of her personal brand. And I think companies and entrepreneurs and big corporations and small businesses are starting to really wake up to this idea, which, you know, a lot of the most successful companies have figured this out long ago, right? Elon Musk, Jeff Bezos, Richard Branson, Steve jobs, you know, these are personal brands that have built huge enterprises and they leverage their personal brand to get media, to create, you know, influential relationships and connections and not to monetize their personal brand in the, in the classic way that we think of it, which is the paids, you know, the, the paids model that we teach and, and the various things that we talk about, but actually monetizing their personal brand through the profits of their enterprise, like of their actual business, the bottom line profits.

And that is just, you know I’m going to let the cat out of the bag here a little bit. So we haven’t shared this anywhere publicly yet. So you’re getting an insider secret of foreshadowing, a hint at something exciting that has company coming, that we have officially commissioned and commenced something that we are calling the state of personal branding. And we are in the middle right now of conducting a nationwide survey where we are looking at statistically valid sample, a sampling of valid populations to determine the trends and the data, and doing a pure empirical analysis on the trends of, and the state of personal branding. And one of the things that we are measuring and it’s tied to this is do people trust companies more, or do they trust personal brands more? Do they trust, you know, this big giant enterprise and the logo and the history behind all that?

Or are they more likely to listen to a person who is an executive at the company or a founder, or, you know, someone that runs a department or a product line or something that, and we’re fascinated to find out the results. I don’t know the answer yet, you know, from a data perspective, but we’re about to know, and we are going to be releasing this. But if you listen to just what Liz is saying here through kind of her own personal recount, she’s going my personal brand brand, your personal brand as an entrepreneur gets you access to marketing opportunities and connections and relationships and resources and, and money that you would not get if you don’t have the personal brand. And that is reason enough to do it, especially if you are an early stage startup, especially if you’re a small business it’s super duper powerful, but you know, like I said, Richard Branson and Elon Musk, I mean, all these, these people that we talk about, they are the wealthiest people in the world.

I mean, literally Jeff Bezos, Elon Musk. So the wealthiest people in the world use your personal brand to build your business. And I thought, you know, what was important tactically for you, you know, real entrepreneur classic entrepreneur, that if you’re listening is to ask the question, how does this serve my main goal right now? Right? So most of you listening are like me, you’re a personal brand. You speak, you write books, you do courses, you do coaching programs, consulting, et cetera, et cetera. And then some of you are more professional services. What I would say is kind of like an intrepreneur where, where it’s, it’s not fully your own business, but you have your own book of business. You have your own clients and you do your own marketing and, and, and sales and service typically. But you’re probably not like dealing with PNLs and stuff like that as much.

But then if, if you’re truly running a company, like if you’re truly an entrepreneur and you’ve, you know, you, you file a 10 K every year and you have articles of incorporation and, and, and you have a tax ID number for your business entity. It’s going, how can I use my personal brand to drive the company profit? And that just like you would make investments into advertising and hiring and infrastructure and CRMs and technology, you should be making the same type of strategic investments into your personal brand because of the exponential returns that it gets you. And I think a lot of entrepreneurs are waking up to this. And for those of you that are more classic personal brands, kind of like, as I view myself in many ways it’s, it’s realizing that not a lot of entrepreneurs start companies because they don’t want to be a face.

They don’t really, they like being sort of behind the scenes and, and they want to build something that is, you know, kind of, of them, but it is powerful. And I think entrepreneurs need to learn from personal brands, how to leverage their personal brand, to throw a tension and gasoline on the fire that is their company, and to grow their business and personal brands need to learn from entrepreneurs about how to scale and in, in, in incorporate infrastructure and systems and processes, and to build things that operate without them. And that’s, I think one of the things that brand builders group does is we sort of sit uniquely at the intersection because of our experience and passion for both entrepreneurship and personal brands. But anyways, that if you’re an entrepreneur, you gotta be lightened up about using personal your personal brand to separate yourself from every other company out there that does what you do.

And now is the time and stay tuned for the data on this. That is coming from the brand builders group, personal the state of personal brand study. I can’t even hardly contain myself. I’m so excited. You’re going to love it. All right. My third takeaway, takeaway number three, here was this term pluck that she uses pluck. Now, you know, it needs, it needs some explaining, which, you know, from that standpoint, you know, it doesn’t pass the clarity test to some of these things that we talk about with titles, but as a concept, the concept that she uses of pluck, I really, really love this because, you know, she, she describes it as a, as a, it’s a, you know, it’s an actual word that means determined, and it’s the determination and the commitment of a beginner. But I also think of it as passion plus luck which is, you know, pluck.

So I’m kind of adapting her, her term here. But the, what she said that was super powerful is that beginners have an advantage. So we typically think of beginners having a disadvantage, right? And there are some disadvantages, like you’ve got to figure things out for, you got to prove, you know, you got to prove that there’s a market for what you’re doing. You have to, you know, find a sales model and, and, and, you know, cashflow a startup and get things off the ground. There’s a lot of challenging things about about being a beginner, but there are also a lot of advantages to being a beginner. She talks about at least 14 in her book, but you know, this reminds me, this is a kin to what Malcolm Gladwell talks about in his book, David and Goliath, which if you, if you’ve never read, of course, everything that Malcolm Gladwell writes is very fascinating and curious, and, you know, not as much practical as it is kind of interesting and philosophical, but somehow still applies to a lot of things in life.

And this is a great example of one, what he talks about it in David and Goliath is basically how, you know, we think basically how the things we perceive as disadvantages are advantages and how we all think David conquered Goliath. And it was like this mighty giant. And David was this little like scrawny kid with no armor and no weaponry who takes down this mighty giant, which is true. But he says, you know, he kind of makes the case and walks you through historically, what’s going on there, you’ve got this big, whatever nine foot man out there in the field moving, you know, covered in heavy, heavy armor. And, you know, David with the little Slingshot kind of darting around here and, and throwing a rock. And, and David had a lot of experience with this as, as you know, basically a sheep herder and a shepherd.

This was a tool that he used on a regular basis. And, and anyways, it’s, you know, the way Malcolm Gladwell kind of presents it, at least causes you to look at us and go, Hey, maybe this wasn’t as unfair as we all think about it. And we like to tell the story is that actually you could say David had the advantage. You know, if it was, if it was a really hot day and he has the advantage of agility, there’s advantages and whether or not that’s true, or you agree with it, or you like it, it’s a powerful perspective. And here’s why this is important because you right now in your own life, think you have disadvantages you right now in your own life. Think there are things about you that you have as weaknesses. And the reality is that every single one of those things could be flipped and turned to an advantage. If you just change the way you look at it, and that changes everything, because whether you’re able to turn it into an advantage or not the fact that you let go of the limiting belief, that your, that your perceived disadvantage is really a disadvantaged. If the fact that you’re willing to let that go, and you’re able to let that go in to say, Oh, this could be an advantage that changes everything.

Ep 142: How Entrepreneurs Can Use Their Personal Brand to Grow Their Business with Liz Bohannon

Hey Brand Builder Rory Vaden here. Thank you so much for tuning in to listen to this interview. We are so excited to bring you this information and wanted to let you know that, Hey, there’s no sales pitch coming. From anything that we do with this is all our value add to you and the community. However, if you are somebody who is looking for specific strategies on how to build and monetize your personal brand, we would love to talk to you and we offer a free call to everyone that’s interested in getting to know us and is willing to give us a chance to get to know them and share a little bit about what we do. So if you’re interested in taking us up on a free strategy call, you can do that at brand builders, group.com/summit. Call brand builders, group.com/summit. Call. Hope to talk to you soon on with the show.

Now you all know when I bring someone on the show, it’s almost always somebody that is a personal connection. There is one other time when we had Kristen Giesa on to talk about television. And today I’m introducing you to a new friend, Liz Forkin Bohannon, who was a cold media outreach from her PR team to us. But you’ll see, there are lots of great reasons why we have had her on the show. She’s amazing. And we actually, I just realized she spoke at global leadership summit last year, which are some of our best friends. We love the global leadership network. I’m sure some of you listening probably saw me speak there. And some, I, my pal Jason Dorsey speak there last year, but anyways, Liz got a chance to speak there because she’s incredible. So she founded a company called Sseko Designs and it is an ethical fashion brand usethat has gone from literally like three women making sandals together under a mango tree in Uganda to this international fashion brand. That’s been featured in Vogue and O magazine and Marie Claire and in style and red book. And it provides employment and educational opportunities to and just like entrepreneurial training and education to women all in East Africa and across the globe. And you know, so Liz and the Sseko story had been featured on shark tank at good morning America and just lots of other places. And so anyways, we’re realizing we have all these connections and anyways, Liz, welcome to the show.

Thank you so much for having me Rory quite a, quite an honor to be one of two connection. So I’ll look forward to, you know, anytime after this will be considered personal connections from here on out, we ever connect a non-personal connection way. I love it. Yeah.

And I think, you know, you’re, I know that your real business is Sseko designed to, so I want to talk about, but like to that point for everyone listening you’ve done a great job of using your personal brand to build a real business. Like you, I get the sense that you are a true entrepreneur. You, you have your, you have your, you have your book beginner’s pluck, which y’all can check out. We’ll put links to that, but it’s like, what you really have used your personal brand to do is like forward your mission and your work as an entrepreneur. Is that accurate to say

Very correct. Yeah. I consider myself my day job. My, my main kind of mission in life right now is growing Seiko and Sseko is very much so a company that’s bigger than me that that works, that operates without me necessarily at the center, although my role is very much so kind of the face of the company and how my personal brand interacts with that is really important. But yeah, I’m not, I’m not a solo preneur. Like my goal is, is to build a scalable international company.

Yeah. And can you give us, so, so can you tell us a little bit about the story of Sseko? Cause I do want to hear about how you’ve used your personal brand to build it, but just like some reference in context to how this thing got started to it’s become, you know, this very recognized just almost like a social, like movement and the good work, like social conscious, like conscious company. And then when did it start where you at give us like a frame of like what, what the businesses is like,

Why don’t we start the thing long story short and it’s never super short. So I feel like I’m starting to lose credit.

I wouldn’t even preface it with that,

But, but 10 years ago I graduated from grad school with a degree in journalism and was really interested in issues that were facing women and girls living in extreme poverty and living in conflict and post-conflict zones. The only problem was I had zero experience living, working really actually understanding issues facing billions of women and girls across the globe. And so I graduated from grad school with all of this information and all of this kind of intellectual understanding and no context, no community, no relationships that were actually representative of that kind of more intellectual interests that I had. And so I moved to Uganda. I didn’t have no one would hire me by the way, I looked for a job that would like take me internationally. And it was like, like I said no real life experience or anything to offer. And so that was kind of a dead end. And finally basically just got to a point where I was like, okay, I’ll just go. Like, I’ll just go in the, in, in the goal will just be to learn and kind of to fill that education gap of like actual experience, real people and in relationships and in community. And so, I mean, I showed up in Uganda, I was what, 22, 23, like knew nothing. And just the goal was just like, okay, just go make friends, just like go build community, learn about these issues and what you think, you know? And,

But like he had no plan, no job, no like family connections there. You’re just like let’s

I knew one girl, we weren’t even really friends in college. She was like kind of an acquaintance who had moved to Uganda and about, Oh, about two weeks before I moved to Uganda, I emailed her and was like, Hey, you still in Uganda, like, I’m, I’m coming. I literally don’t have a place to stay. I don’t have a job. I have nothing. And she was like, wow. Okay. Well, I mean, you can like stay with me in my apartment until you like figure things out. And I was like, great, that’s amazing. So I had one connection in the whole country and just showed up and just started like making friends, trying to learn. And yeah.

And did you have a vision like you didn’t have at that point, you didn’t have a vision for the company, but you had a calling to try to do something for these women.

I had a desire to learn is literally all I had. I considered myself still more a journalist at that time then definitely not an entrepreneur. Couldn’t be actually like reacted really strongly against the idea of being an entrepreneur was not interested in business. Really believe that like, you know, I was like a pretty tried and true like bleeding heart humanitarian. I believed that like the solutions lied or, you know, we’re with the journalists and the truth tellers and the nonprofit starters. And so when I went to Uganda business was so far off my radar. I went as a journalist to go learn, live, understand more what I was going to do with that information. No idea. So I’m in Uganda and I’m just, I have my curiosity hat on, right? Like I have my little like, no one’s paying me investigative journalists. Like just being curious literally for my life, just, you know, 14 hours a day, just asking questions and following leads.

And through that process is when my world totally turned upside down. And my perspective on business really turned upside down because I came into the situation being like, no business is mainly part of the problem. It’s like, you know, it’s like greedy in it, oppresses people. And it’s all about like maximizing profits for stakeholders at the cost of, you know, whoever happens to be, you know, in the way. And, and what I realized through a series of events and learning is like, Oh my gosh, it’s such a big part of the solution. In the mechanics of like capitalism and business and building economies and creating employment, like so many of the problems that so many charities and nonprofits to solve wouldn’t exist. If people had access to good jobs where they were treated fairly, where they were paid on time, where they were safe, where they were treated with dignity.

And that’s not to say every single problem can be solved with a job, but a lot of them can. And so in Uganda it’s like, you know, you got to has one of the youngest populations in the entire world. And yet their youth unemployment rate in some parts of the country are 80%. And so just kind of like thinking through my understanding of how development happens completely turned upside down. And I was like, Oh my gosh, if I want to contribute specifically to enabling really high potential young women to kind of further their leadership and educational journey, which was my heart was like, okay, I know if there’s one thing that I can buy into it’s that educating a girl can change everything and that gender equality and that creating access to economic and educational opportunity for girls, specifically girls in the bottom billion. So those living in extreme poverty is one of the fastest, most effective ways of ending global extreme poverty. How we do that became definitely an evolution and using business as a tool to actually use that, to solve the big problem is coming of,

That’s a big shift, like going from like businesses, the enemy to, Oh crap, like businesses, the solution. And then you’re also going, I don’t know much about business. I mean, I’m, yeah. I mean, guessing like you’re in your twenties, like

Journalism, I hadn’t taken a single business class in my entire life so far.

So then, so then I guess you, you have this realization and from that you go, what could we do? Like what resources exist here that we could turn into a company that we could sell something to create income and jobs for people in a service for, for customers? Is that basically it,

So it was all backwards in the sense that I can didn’t start with a customer problem. I started with the problem of like the present issue, which was, I had met a group of girls that were getting ready to graduate from high school, wicked smart, top 5% of students in the country were getting ready to go into like a nine month gap in between high school and university gap year that everybody in the, everybody in the school system, in Uganda experiences and knew that there was a real likelihood that they wouldn’t make it onto university. Not because they weren’t smart enough, but because they wouldn’t be able to find a job during that nine month gap. And so started out with my big, hairy problem was like solve the nine month gap. How we did that, like what we were creating, what we were making. I literally couldn’t have given a flip. Like I w I started a chicken farm and was like, Oh, I don’t know. Let’s do chickens. Like this seems viable. And then I was like, what am I doing? No, no, no, no, no, I don’t want to run a chick.

I’m not going to be the chicken lady. I can’t be the chicken lady. The chicken farm is not the answer.

Oh, it was not the answer. And it wasn’t because I didn’t know, because at the end of the day, I didn’t know anything about what I ended up doing, but I didn’t, I didn’t, it, it, chickens are gross. They freaked me out joy. And that became very clear. And then, so I was like, okay, we can’t do this. We need to do, I need to make something. And ultimately probably sell it in the United States. There’s a real hunger and desire to get us dollars and build up the export markets. And so I was like, okay, there’s probably more of a pathway for that. And I know I’m an American woman. I kind of know that market. It’s not, I don’t have professional experience there, but I have a lot of intuitive experience there. And so ended up designing a pair of sandals. And again, at the time I was kind of like, man, chicken sandals. I don’t, I’m not really passionate about either of those.

You were solving the problem, not for customers, but for the employees.

Yes, exactly. And so ended up making these sandals, which actually were really cool. And I think if I would have started with something more like we sell jewelry now, too, we have, we’re a whole lifestyle brand. So we do footwear and apparel and leather goods and handbags and jewelry as part of our business. And our jewelry business is great. I think if I would have started there, I would have really struggled because the kind of fair trade, ethical jewelry market, there’s a lot of options there. Because just the barrier to entry to jewelry is, is a lot lower. And our product was pretty neat. It was a pair of these. It’s still one of our kind of flagship products. It’s got a leather base and then these five anchor points and these interchangeable straps. So the deal is you buy the base and then you can buy multiple pairs of straps. You can tie them and style them in different ways. So it’s a really unique product. There was nothing like it on the market at the time, and it’s really interactive. So the customer gets the product and she immediately starts playing around with her sandals. And she’s like, Ooh, look at this tie I invented. And the likelihood that she’s like, Oh, so I’m going to take a picture of it. And I’m going to put it on at the time. It would have been Facebook early Blogspot and talk about how she’s styling her sandals and

Myspace profile. I’ve got all my pictures of my best Sseko ties.

It’s a super interactive kind of versatile co-creating product, which is cool. Kind of got the energy that it did. In the beginning,

Lucky, like, did you design it that way? We were like, I’m going to let them,

No, it was, I would say, I would say it was more plucky than lucky.

No

Real thought. I think honestly, because I came from a background where I wasn’t particularly interested in fashion, I was, I’ve always been really drawn to the idea of versatility and fashion. So how can one product serve multiple purposes and solve multiple problems and B be clever. I think I’m really drawn to like clever things, as opposed to just like make a thousand designs that each can be worn one different way, this idea of like, but what if we could make one thing that could be worn a thousand different ways? And so it really, when I got home and started selling the product, I realized that we did kind of have that magic one, two punch of one, the product was, was interesting. It was clever. It was something that people want to talk about. I think, you know, you, you’re onto something when people are like, Oh, I thought about something like that before, you know, or they like say something like that.

And you’re like, Oh yeah, but you didn’t, you didn’t do it. I did, you know, but it’s like almost this sense that it’s like, Oh, I think I, maybe I invented that. Or maybe I had a dream about that, you know, and that combined with the story, which like, Hey, you’re going to go buy a pair of new sandals this year. Anyway, like you’re going to go to target. You’re going to spend 25 bucks on a pair of sandals. The last you may be a year, maybe two years, you have no idea where they came from. You have no idea what the impact is, or you could buy sandals from us. And in addition to getting this really cool product, you can be a part of this really rad story. Like there’s these awesome bad-ass female entrepreneurs, any staff Africa who are going to go on to change the world. And like, by buying sandals from us, you get to be a little part of that.

And so, so what’s the scope. What’s the scale of the company today.

So we now operate, we have a manufacturing facility in Uganda, Sseko Uganda, we’ve got about 75 full-time employees there. And then we have now artists and partners in Kenya, in Ethiopia, in India, in Peru. And so we’ve got now global partners, basically almost on every continent. And we actually just welcomed a Southeast Asian production partner. So we’re employing at this point are partnering with thousands of artisans across the globe to make our, our catalog of goods. And then those products are all sold in the United States by Seiko fellows. And so Seiko fellows are our stylist consultants. These are primarily women that sell the product in their community, using social media, using their personal brands, hosting trunk shows, and then they earn a commission off of everything that they sell. And then our, our entrepreneurial fellows are the ones who are actually building teams. So not only are they selling the product, but they’re recruiting other people to sell the product and building and mentoring a team. And then earning a really scalable income off of that.

What did you say the stylists are called? We call those fellows say co-fellows, and then you have entrepreneurial fellows.

Yeah, well, they’re, they’re all called Sseko fellows, but like in every, you know, kind of network marketing, we have different levels. So we’ve got women that are like, I love this. I love the mission I love being in. And it makes me feel so good. And I like earning really beautiful product for my wardrobe that maybe I wouldn’t spend on myself otherwise. And so I’m going to host three shows a season and earn a couple hundred bucks and get free or discounted product. And then we have women who are like, no, I’m, I’m an entrepreneur. And I want to build a business. I just want to outsource all the crappy parts of building a business, you know, like totally development and logistics. And so they’re really focusing on leadership development and really building up a marketing and sales organ and leadership organization whilst they could go corporate takes on ticks on all the dirty work behind the scenes.

Yeah. We, we love direct sales. We have lots of direct sales and clients, you know, network marketing and obviously most people that listen, know my background, a very in depth background with, with it. So let’s talk about that part, the personal branding more for you specifically because you, so it’s one thing to do personal branding for direct sales. But what, what I’m really curious about is you took this mission and you made it a brand as a company. You started a business and you’re not monetizing your personal brand through selling like advice or anything like that. And also you’re not selling a service really. I mean, you, the direct sales is kind of an opportunity, but but the brand itself, like you took your personal brand and how so, like how do you, how do you think about the relationship of your personal brand with your business and, and like the, some of the practical questions we get.

So like, we have a group of people who are personal brands, they’re just, you know, like Rory vaden.com and, you know, they got their speaker and they got books, et cetera. And then we’ve got entrepreneurs and they’re going, one of the first questions is what should the domain of my company be? Should it be Rory vaden.com or should it be brand builders, group.com? You know, like we have that for our actual company. So how do you balance that relationship? How do you think about your personal brand as an entity in, in relationship to this business that you’re building and to this corporate brand, like you’ve got your personal brand, but you’ve built this, this amazing corporate brand, which also is socially conscious brand that has a lot of equity. So what are your, some of your thoughts and philosophies there,

But yeah, so for me personally, the company is its own entity sseko designs is not Liz Bohannon. They’re very related obviously because I’m the founder, I’m the spokesperson, I’m the chief, you know, like, you know, I speak on behalf of the company and I’m really the chief storyteller. The chief inspire the chief connector, whether that is for our customers, whether that is for our fellows. But I would say actually since the very beginning was very clear about this is going to be a business and this is going to be a business that is going to be bigger than me. And I actually don’t want to be the center of it. I want to build an organization. I want to build a brand that exists, maybe not even necessarily outside of me, but it’s bigger than me. And so my perspective on growing my personal brand, at least up until now, you know, for the last 10 years has always been like my personal brand is in service to this larger organization.

I’m much more much more at this point, interested in using the opportunities that I get as a human person to build this larger organization than I am in building up my personal brand. Now I say that, and what’s amazing about having a person. I still do very distinctly have a personal brand, right? Like I wrote a book that launched last year, it’s called beginner’s pluck. I have a podcast called plucking up. Like I use social media. I have all of the like elements of a personal brand. I think my framework for the question of building

The website, I mean like a whole whole thing. Yeah.

I just asked myself as like, does this go to actually serve my main goal right now, which is growing and scaling Sseko, but what’s awesome is that when you have a personal brand that is compelling, that is, and I hold, you know, they’re not one in the same in the sense that I really use my personal brand to talk about things that I care about on a personal level, that aren’t necessarily like Sseko’s core values or brands. So there is separation between the two, like if you follow Seiko designs on Instagram and you follow Liz Bohannan, you’re going to have two pretty different experiences, but what’s so amazing is like the access that I get, because I’m a person who cares about a cause and has expertise in that area to share about my company. It’s remarkable. Like if I could quantify the amount of free marketing and advertising that Sseko has gotten over the last 10 years, because of the opportunities that Liz Bohannen has actually gotten, like people aren’t inviting the CEO of Sseko, they’re not looking for a representative from Seiko to come talk at this event. They want Liz Bohannan to come share her experience, her story, her expertise. But because what I care about and because my mission and my philosophy on life is so tied up in the values of my brand. I get the opportunity to share the brand story.

Well like global leadership summit is, I mean, that event is the biggest speaking event in the world. That’s amazing. Cause you get, you get, not only do you get free marketing, you get paid and you get the marketing, like you get paid to, to, to, to, to share your story with people around the globe. That’s incredible.

Yeah, it is. It is a really remarkable when, when you can make it work, the value that that can provide to the entity, to the organization that you’re building is I really do believe it’s unquantifiable. And I think that there is a real legitimacy play there as well. Like I know for us being a direct sales, you know, a multi-level marketing company when I’m recruiting or when someone else is recruiting to come be a part of our company leadership development, it’s a big part of our industry. Like people are joining a company one because they want to sell a product. They want to earn an income. They want to be a part of a community. They also want to better themselves, right? Like they want to push themselves. They want to, you know, they want to learn how to grow their own businesses and grow as a person.

And so when the leader of that company has all of this external validation in the leadership realm of like, Oh, our CEO is like really highly sought after and valued in all of these other spheres to come teach her leadership knowledge. And like, we get that here at our company just by like, you know, I go live on Facebook all the time with my fellows. I’m way more active with our internal community that I am even with our external community. Cause I’m like, I’m going to give you my best. Like those followers on Instagram, those people that go to my website, like I love them. And I, I really want to create content that serves them. But heck if I’m going to, we only have so much time and energy in a day. Right. It’s like I would rather pour my resources my time, my best into those people that are then going to go out. Cause they’re like, they’re the magnifying voice for the brand for the impact. And so it’s like, that’s how we create and really scale impact. I don’t think I do it through me and through growing my personal brand. I think I do it by equipping using my brand to then go equip and inspire thousands and thousands and tens of thousands of women to then go do that in their community.

Yeah. So since you brought this up, so this is interesting. I didn’t realize that you guys were direct sales company before the, for the interview, right? Because I’m putting together pieces of the Liz fork and Bohannan story here as we go along. But you know, now knowing that, and, and, you know, I mentioned to you that I speak at direct sales companies. It’s like the number one financial services and then, you know, direct sales companies. And so I love this, but to the topic of using your personal brand for the business, a lot of direct sales, there’s a lot of old roots of direct sales. It’s been around a long time. Social media is a very new and I would call it a disruptive, I would call, I would just say personal branding is I think occurring as a very disruptive force in network marketing.

You know, multi-level marketing, direct sales, whatever you want, whatever term you want to use. And I feel like I’m seeing a split in philosophy that some direct sales companies are going, Nope, no personal brand promote the company focus only on the, only on the company. Like this is what we do and others are going, you know, like I think of like Rhodan and fields is a good example. They’re just going, it’s all about the personal brand, all in, on the personal brand, all in, on social media. And, and I really understand the dilemma because from a, from a brand perspective, it’s like, you want to make sure people are representing the brand accurately and ethically and saying, you know, consistent things in trying to like reinforce some scalable systems that make them successful, but then it’s like to ignore the power of the personal brand and the power of social. So now knowing that you are, you actually happen to be a founder of one of those companies, clearly you’re on the side of the value of the personal brand. Like how have you reconciled that and how do you reconcile that with the fellows in terms of what you promote in terms of how, how they should use their personal brand to build their direct sales company? I E in this case, Seiko.

Yeah, definitely. I mean, one of the, we were kind of chatting a little bit before the show and I, I confess that I am a founder and CEO of a, you know, an MLM, a direct sales company that has literally never had any experience battling for buying from like day one of my exposure. I kind of thought here here’s, here’s the real truth. I kind of thought I made it up. I was so unfamiliar with the industry that I like had this whole thing. And I was like, we did these party in a boxes and I would send a box of product. It was usually at the time it was like college students. And they would, you know, like host an event on their college campus and literally like send back an envelope of cash. And I would let them keep some product and exchange. And I was like, this is good. Like the energy, the connection, like the experience they’re able to create. They walk away from, you know, a Seiko campus show with a totally different experience with the brand and connection with the brand than they do. If they bought that at the boutique down the road that also sells the product because at the time we were a traditional retail company

Can I just, I have to just interrupt. Cause I, in my mind, I, I, I can’t help, but laugh because you’re like this bleeding heart journalist chicken farmer level marketing, like direct sales, like the pendulum swung pretty far in terms of what most, how most people view it, but all based on this realization to solve this problem of giving women opportunity in these developing countries, both economic and educational. And I just, I just think it’s so ironic and radical and fun to see this, how your life has gone in this way, where you’re like, I invented this awesome model of party planning and, and then you can recruit somebody and get a percentage sauce. It’s, it’s awesome.

Even with the recruiting and stuff, like at this point I was running a traditional retail organization. So it’s like, you got your VP of sales and then they earn a commission off of your sales reps. And the sales reps actually go in the field and they sell to the stores. And I was like, what if we just did that? What if it was the same, but it was just like with, instead of with stores, right. So you’re totally right. And I honestly, this is where, you know, my book beginners plaque is kind of all about how you’re in competency, your unknowing of how the industry works of how it’s always been done of the rules can, is actually, could be your superpower. If you understand how to be really intentional about harnessing it and using it to your advantage. And this would be a really good example of had I known I wouldn’t have done it in the sense that I think I would have had all of these preconceived notions about what MLMs are and who I am and like, you know, and my goal in the world.

And I think I would have probably been too, there would have been too many reasons for me to talk myself out of it. I was so ignorant that I was like, I’m inventing this, I’m just making this up as I go along and it’s this incredible model it’s going to be really scalable and we’re going to have this exponential growth. And then what that enabled me to do is to take the roots of the model to take the structure, to take the skeleton, which is brilliant. It’s just amazing and build it out and layer on top of it, a different way of thinking about it. A different reason, like 80% of the people who are in our community selling have never been a part of an MLM or direct sales company before, which obviously has challenges. It also has an incredible advantage because we’re just doing things in a way that’s a little bit different and there’s, we’re able to access specifically a younger market, younger market.

It’s really comfortable with social media. That’s really familiar and passionate about kind of more of a cause marketing values-based like consumer relationship that frankly would never sign up to sell a product that didn’t have something that touched them on a deeper level, on a values level. And we’ve created that we’ve created a space where it’s like, Hey, come earn an income. But also you get to be a part of this community where you wake up every day and you know, like the work that you were doing, it matters so much. And you know, like when you become a Seiko fellow, you have the opportunity to get matched with a Seiko sister. So this is one of our team members, one of our colleagues in Uganda, you take a quiz. So you each kind of put in your like preferences and life and we match you up with somebody.

It’s like, Hey, you actually have a lot in common. You, you know, like Susan from Minnesota, you’ve got a lot in common with Sharon. Who’s our head seamstress and Uganda, we connect them, they learn about each other. They can actually write letters back and forth our top incentive trip. So, you know, every MLM sends their people, you know, incentive trip is an all expenses paid trip to Uganda, right? Like that’s normal necessarily. That’s not like we’re going to go, we’re going to have the experience of a lifetime. You’re going to meet your Ugandan colleagues. You’re going to learn how the products are made. We hang out in the factory, we do dinner and one another’s homes. Like there’s a real, it’s a different flavor, but the model and the structure of it is still the same.

Yeah. Is that, is, is there, are there fellows

In Uganda or just the manufacturing and like the production happens

Right now. It’s just manufacturing and production. So all of the sales is us and the partners are on the production side. You’re in Oregon. I’m in Oregon. Yeah. And we’re is headquartered in Portland.

Yeah. wow. Well, that’s just, it it’s, it’s fascinating. I’m glad you mentioned that because I wanted to come back to the, to the concept of pluck. The book is called, you know, your book’s called beginner’s pluck. It reminds me almost of the a little bit of the Malcolm Gladwell, David and Goliath, where, you know, that book talks about how everyone assumes that David was the underdog. But in reality, you know, he was much faster. He didn’t have a lot of the weight, you know, it was a sunny day. He was nimble, et cetera, et cetera. And how the underdog, isn’t always the underdog you think. And that as an entrepreneur, I mean, it seems like that’s kind of the premise that you’re saying is that there’s a brilliance in that unknowing that you don’t talk yourself out of something. That’s basically what you’re, what, what you’re talking about. Right.

Totally. Yeah. So the book has, there’s, there’s 14 things, 14 principles of beginner’s pluck things that I believe that natural beginners do naturally it comes more easy to them. They do it more quickly. They’re more familiar with it. And as we gain expertise and mastery, we actually lose those things. And I believe that over time, when we lose those kinds of that ability to channel our inner beginner, we actually become less effective. We become less curious. We become less innovative over the long haul. And so it’s all about like this concept of, if you actually are a beginner, here’s what you just need to know that this is your advantage. This is your secret weapon. So lean into it. Don’t be afraid of it. Don’t deny it actually lean into it. And if you are an expert or master, if you’re 10, 20, 30 years into your career, here are the things that you should be intentionally trying to get back to and to channel in a way that you probably did without knowing it more when you were a beginner that you’ve probably naturally lost along the way. And that’s totally fine, but being really intentionally about kind of getting back there for the purposes of becoming more creative, more innovative. Okay.

So cool. So cool. Well, we’ll put links to the book. Liz, Bohannan everybody, Seikos the name of the company? Liz? Where do you want people to go? If they want to learn more about the stuff that you’re up to?

Yeah, well, you can go to Seikos website, it’s S S E K O designs.com. You can shop Seiko, you can host a trunk show. You can become a Seiko fellow and you’ll hear me run my mouth a lot more. I’m on Instagram at Liz Bo Hannen. I have a podcast called plucking up, which is one of my newest, recent loves where I interview amazing people like Liz, Gilbert and Arianna Huffington, like wildly successful people. And it’s all about their pluck ups. So the whole concept is basically like, Hey you’re going make mistakes along the way. And really kind of like pulling the curtain back on, like those really challenging seasons, the rejections, the embarrassments, the seasons where you felt totally lost and upside down and underwater. And it’s been a really, really fun space and really fun community for people to come together and go, Oh, when I’m messing up it.

And you know, when I got rejected, when I did that thing, and it was a total embarrassment or flopper failure, it’s actually not because I’m broken or I’m stupid, or I shouldn’t be trying this in the first place. It’s because you’re probably trying something that’s pretty challenging. And you’re in really good company of a lot of us who were doing awesome stuff and plucking up all along the way. Usually sometimes a little bit of both at the same time. And so you can subscribe to plucking up and find me there as well. So, cool.

Well, keep providing jobs and education turns out business is part of the solution. One of the best parts of the solution, a lot of problems can be solved with a good job. That’s going to be one of my big takeaways. I think so, Liz, thanks for being here. We wish you, we wish you all the best. Thank

You so much, Ray. I really appreciate it.