Ep 297: Methods for a Better Marriage with Kathryn Gordon | Recap Episode
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Hey brand builder, Rory Vaden here. Thank you so much for taking the time to check out this interview as always, it’s our honor to provide it to you for free and wanted to let you know there’s no big sales pitch or anything coming at the end. However, if you are someone who is looking to build and monetize your personal brand, we would love to talk to you and get to know you a little bit and hear about some of your dreams and visions and share with you a little bit about what we’re up to to see if we might be a fit. So if you’re interested in a free strategy call with someone from our team, we would love to hear from you. You can do that at brand builders, group.com/pod call brand builders, group.com/pod call. We hope to talk to you. Soon
Speaker 2 (00:54):
For years, Jon Gordon has been a friend, a colleague, a mentor of mine, and what an absolute delight and treat to get to sit down with his wife who is also his co-author of the book, relationship grit, Kathryn. Kathryn has become a quick friend of the family and really a quick friend of AJ’s, which is you know, kind of unexpected, unusual for AJ to become so close with somebody so quickly. And they have really hit it off. And man, this was a powerful, a powerful lesson. And I mean, of all the podcasts we’ve had, this one really, really hit me hard personally. And so we were talking about, you know, methods for a better marriage, especially for entrepreneurial couples. And I think you know, I wanna share my takeaways here in just a second, my, my top three highlights, but what a great just opportunity to get to hear from people who have built something really big in the world, right between Jon and, and Kathryn.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
And of course, if you’re not familiar with Jon, he is the best selling author of the energy bus. He, he’s one of the, the, the most well known speakers, motivational speakers in the world, and he’s written several, several books and you know, I’ve just always known him really well. And just only gotten to know Katherine more recently, but just, I think it’s rare to even have a chance to talk with other entrepreneurs about how they hold it together. And one of the best parts of this, this whole interview was just hearing the story honestly, of how they struggled about how hard it was on their, their marriage, about their kids, about even being separated for a while. Like that it’s that, that permission to know that it’s okay. And that permission to hear that marriage is hard. Like a great marriage is takes a lot of work.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
It’s very, very difficult because because life is difficult and kids are difficult and building businesses and doing meaningful and significant things in the world is difficult. And so to just have that opportunity to, to talk with her and hear some of their story from some people who are, you know, had a chance to walk this path a little longer than we have was, was super inspiring and, and, and helpful for me in an extremely practical way. And I’m, I’m gonna share with you, like, I would say these are three of maybe the most intimate things that I’ve ever shared in a recap, because marriage is intimate, right. And, and you know, my, my life priorities are, are, are, are very clear, right? It’s like, it is God, then it is AJ. Then it is the kids. And then it, then, you know, it is family and then it is work like that is the order of, of the priorities in my life.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
And so, you know, this is, this is intimate stuff talking about, you know, marriage. So the first, my first big takeaway was around vulnerability. Now I have to tell you, and maybe you have this response too, but when I hear the word vulnerability, like it’s been thrown around so much in the last few years that there’s a little bit of me that kind of wants to gag, like, oh, you know, more like, here we go again, like vulnerability, you know? And, and like, what even does that mean vulnerability? And, and it’s just, it’s just becomes this word that people like use so much, but I love the way that Kathryn described it in such a practical nature. Right. And, and this, this is what I wrote down at least. And like when I was reviewing my notes and I guess I’ve just never heard it shared in such a simple way.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
And that hit me as really powerful. And this is the way that she described it. She said, vulnerability is simple. It’s simply sharing what you are, feeling, sharing what you are feeling. And that really hit me hard because it’s like, oh, okay, now I get why it’s so hard, right? Because telling someone how you are feeling is risky. It’s, there’s, it is intimate because it’s, it’s risky. It’s giving you access into something that nobody else knows, except for me. Right? Like, you know, you, you can see how a person looks, you can know about what a person does, but in order to know what somebody’s feeling there is this invitation for you to come inside my, my mind inside my heart and inside my body and, and really know what’s going on. And it’s, and it’s risky because that’s, that’s a very private, and it’s also sort of scary to think that someone else might judge me for the way I’m feeling.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
They might, they, they, they might not agree with how I’m feeling. They, they might think I’m wrong for feeling the way that I am. And also there is also a risk that I might offend another person by telling them how I’m feeling that I might hurt them. I might anger them. I might push them away by sharing how I am feeling. And, and that’s the risk of vulnerability, but that’s the power in vulnerability. It is, it is intimacy. It is into you. I see, right? Like that is, is like the meaning of the word into you. I see giving me access into how you’re feeling, giving you access into how I’m feeling. And if there is one relationship on this earth that you must be able to do that with, it must be your spouse. It has to be like it has to be the person because that’s the person you’re doing life with all of the highs, all of the lows, all of the challenges, the obstacles, the difficulties, as well as the wins, the celebrations, the ambitions, the dreams, all of those things are shared most closely.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
And in most proximity with your spouse, it doesn’t matter how close you are to your, your, your best friend or to your other family members. It is, it is your spouse that you’re walking most closely with. And if you are not able to share how you are feeling then with that person, then who else are you able to do that with? And, and, and how lonely, how lonely to go through life, not having that opportunity and yet terrifying to do it, scary to do it, gut wrenching, you know, to, to, to, to take that risk. But that is marriage, right? It is, it is this choice, this one relationship that you choose to say, I’m gonna go there with you. I’m gonna, I’m gonna give you access into every part of my life into how I live and how I sleep and what I wear and what I say and what I do and how I spend my money and, and what I say about other people and what I think, and also how I feel.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
And so there, that was powerful for me. I don’t know why it was just something about the way that Kathryn said it. That was like, that’s so actionable and so practical, right? Share how you are feeling, share what you are feeling that was like, oh, I get it. Like, I really, I really, really, I really get it. And I think part of the risk here for me was, or not the risk, but another, another part of this that was, was an insight for me, was allowing other people to share how they’re feeling with you without getting defensive. And I think if there’s a place that I have failed in my marriage, it’s been here. I don’t think I have done a great job in my, you know, now 12 years of, of marriage with AJ giving her a space and a place and an opportunity to share how she is feeling without her having to be worried about me, judging it, commenting on it, correcting it.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
I mean, I, I actually think, I, I really only learned of this term gas lighting here fairly recently. And I think that I have done that a lot to AJ, more than anybody, which is that I’ve tried to convince her to feel a different way. I’ve tried to tell her why her feelings are, are wrong, or why maybe she isn’t viewing things. Right. And that I think has probably been the single biggest gap in our marriage, right? Like that there’s, there’s many things that I do wrong, but in a real significant way, in, in a, in a way that’s really risk risky of, of, you know, what has caused real damage, that would be something that I would look back to and go, man. I hope my boys one day for their wives would give them a safer space to share their feelings with, with their wife than I have with AJ.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
And that’s a hard, that’s a hard thing to admit, but also something that I’m very grateful for that I’ve gotten that clarity. And, and, you know, I, I think that that’s been a journey that we’ve, we’ve, we’ve been on for some of you that, you know, have known us for years and years who have followed us, like you know, we went through a hard time, pretty hard time, few years ago. And I think I was trying to convince AJ about certain things that she should feel. And, and she turned out to be right. I was the one that was wrong. And that just makes it harder. But anyways, I think the practical point for all of us is share what we are feeling and allow someone else to share what they are feeling without judgment, without correction, without coaching, without, you know, alt altering.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
And I think, you know, the natural coach in me, I think that, you know, looking back would be, is probably one of the things that’s probably had to be most difficult for AJ being, being, being married to me and you know, something I’m embarrassed about and, and ashamed of, and but grateful to have been, become aware of it here, especially in like the last couple years. And so that was power. I mean, like that’s a life changing moment, right? Like life changing moment. And Katherine, you know, just sort of sharpened that, that for me with a lot of clarity. So that was, that was really huge. The second big takeaway for me, and this helped me a lot when Kathryn said it, because I feel this way, like, I, I feel this way where she said, look, ultimately the workload is not going to change.
Speaker 2 (12:29):
Ultimately it falls on mom. Like mom has to figure it out because she is the ultimate decision maker on everything related to the kids. And so there is just an imbalance of workload as it relates to children. Like even though I try to do as much as I can do, like I try to go, how can I be useful, AJ? Like, how can I help? What, what, what can I do to support here at the end of the day, there’s an imbalance of the workload in raising the kids. At least it is in the Vaden household. And, and I don’t think it’s cuz I’m a lazy dad. I’m certainly not like an absent dad. Like the, you know, I grew up without a father, a father for, you know, the first 10 years of my life. So I, I didn’t have much to model, but like I’m here and I’m trying, and yet it’s difficult.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
Like raising, like having kids has been very hard, not because there’s anything wrong with our kids. They’re beautiful. They’re amazing. They’re, they’re perfect. It’s because of my own self-centeredness and not being used to having to modify every, every single part of my life to, to make an allowance for somebody else’s needs to come first. Right. Like marriage is one level of that. Kids is a whole nother level. And so I think, you know, I’ve I’ve, and then I struggle with that being like, man, AJ’s just, she’s just carrying the workload here and it feels unfair. And so there was something about when Kathryn was like, yeah, that is how it is. I don’t know. Just the, the way that her sort of, matter of fact tone it, it, in, in a way gave me permission to not feel wrong and to not feel bad, which I think I was looking, I, I guess, deep down looking for, because it was just like, no, that that is how it is. And then yet going, and, and then, and then what is my role like then, then what can I do? And this is what she said, and I have to tell you, like, it’s this for the last several weeks I have been thinking about this on a regular basis is, is Kathryn said again, so practical, like so profound, but so practical. She said, Rory, if you go back and listen to the interview, she said, all you, I, if there’s one thing you can do, just acknowledge to a J for a J how hard it is.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
And I was like, oh man, that’s so good. That’s so simple. That’s so doable. And why haven’t I done a better job of that? Right. Like I think, you know, my default is to be defensive is, is, is, is to go, well, yeah, you’re doing all this, but, but I’m also doing this. Right. And I am, and it’s like very difficult for me. Like, I’m going, like, I’m over here dying to myself. And I’m, that’s been a difficult journey for me, especially somebody who’s like this self-motivated independent, ambitious achiever, my whole life. Like pre-marriage, it was just like, I just ran a sprint and then, you know, marriage was like, oh, okay. Like now, but now it was more like I had a partner and then kids came and it was like, whoa, like this yanked my whole universe. But, but you know, I, I tend to be more of like, well, yeah, but I’m doing this and yeah, but I’m doing that.
Speaker 2 (15:47):
And for Kathryn to just so clearly, and so simply say, just acknowledge for AJ how hard it is that has been so helpful for me. And so practical. And frankly, it’s been transformational for our marriage in a, in a matter of a few weeks. So both kind of acknowledging in that receive, receiving that, being okay with it, not making myself wrong for it and not feeling like I have to justify the imbalance, but just acknowledge the imbalance. What a, what a release of pressure from me. And apparently exactly. Kathryn’s exactly right. I feel like I should send Kathryn a check for some marriage counseling, cuz that’s what I got like on this episode. Like if you didn’t listen to this interview, like if you were struggling in your marriage at all, or if you ever have, or you know, someone who is, which we all do, like listen to this episode just, and then just acknowledge how hard it is.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
And I think that extends beyond marriage and beyond parenting, right? Specifically, this is like a parenting piece of the conversation, but like what a gift to anyone in their life to just acknowledge how hard it is, acknowledge how hard it is, acknowledge how difficult it is or what they’re going through. Like take a second to go. I see you. I, I support you. I, I, I, I, I, I am aware of what you’re doing and, and you know, I just wanna let you know that I see you. And I think so many people just wanna be seen. They just wanna go, man, does this matter? Is anyone even noticing? And, and what an, what a simple practical thing to be able to do to acknowledge how difficult this is? Honestly, I think that’s one of the biggest things that our members, you know, the people who, who become members at brand builders group, we have now almost 400 of them.
Speaker 2 (17:31):
Right. And we see them several of them every month at our events. And you know, and the virtual trainings and stuff is like, they get, they get behind the scenes and we’re showing ’em behind the scenes of, of, you know, how we do things and all these things we learn with all the personal brands we, we work with and all this stuff. And they go, oh man, this is hard. Like, it’s not easy. It’s so difficult. But there is a system and there is, is a process. So who in your life can you do this for today? Who in your life can you acknowledge? And just say, Hey, you’re hand, you’re carrying a ton. And I just want you to know, like, I see it. You’re doing so much. Thank you for how much you’re doing. It’s, it’s so much, it’s so hard and you’re doing it like a champ.
Speaker 2 (18:23):
My guess is there’s somebody in your life. You need to say that to right. Maybe yourself, maybe yourself and, and definitely somebody else. And then the third, the third part of this you know, when Kathryn was sharing the story about them being separated, which I was like kind of shocked that she was just, you know, here she is just sort of openly telling, tell, you know, it’s like between me and you, Kathryn, and you know, a, yeah. A few million podcast listeners.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
God, we invite you into our lives. And I don’t know where you’re at on your spiritual journey or what you think and all that, right? Like I’m not a pastor, but is there a place in your life right now that you might need to invite God into? And here’s the hint, it’s the place where everything’s fallen apart. It’s the place where you’ve tried everything and nothing works. It’s the place where you’re most frustrated. You have the most despair. You, you are, you are the most exhausted. The most discouraged, the most beat up the most beat down the most, the closest to giving up. Where in your life are you the closest to giving up? Where in your life are you ready to throw in the towel? Are you ready to quit? Are you at the end of your rope? Are you struggling? Are you mad? Are you frustrating? Are you said like where in your life is that that is where you want to invite God into.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
And look, there’s a whole lot of discussion around, you know, historical accuracy and evidence for God. But I’m telling you in my life clearly in Kathryn’s life, in the life of the people that I know the best, the proof of God is to invite God into your darkest moments. Invite God into your darkest places. Invite God into your deepest struggles. Invite God into your greatest concerns. Invite God into your greatest worries. Invite God in, invite him in invite him. And look, if you, if you’re really struggling spiritually and you go, I don’t even know if there is God I’ve been there. Like I been there, I’ve been there many times. Here’s the good thing about God. God’s not afraid of being questions. God is not afraid of being challenged like that. Doesn’t intimidate God whatsoever. And I would say, invite him in and, and see if he shows up, invite him in and see if you feel his presence, invite him in and see if something, something happens, invite him in and see if something changes. But if you’re struggling, if you’re defeated, if you’re wounded, if you’re hurt, if you’re angry, if you’re sad, if you are experiencing sorrow, if you’re feeling lost and you don’t invite him in you’re on your own, not because of him because of you, because that’s a choice that’s you are making with your life. That’s not his decision, that’s yours. So if you are not sure, if he’s there, ask him, invite him and see if he shows up. And I will tell you, he never has. Not. For me.
Speaker 2 (22:27):
He never has not for AJ. He never has not for many of the people that I love most dearly in my life that I, I have the most intimate relationships with that. I know the best personally. He often shows up in ways that are different than we expect, but he never doesn’t show up, but you have to invite him in. He, he doesn’t just come breaking down the walls. Like you have to invite him in. There is no obedience. Otherwise there is no demonstration of faith otherwise, right? If he just forces himself upon you, then there’s, that’s not, there’s not belief. There’s not relationship. Right? You have to invite him, invite him in. So where in your life do you need to do these things? Who in your life do you need to share what you’re feeling with? Who in your life do you have to acknowledge and speak and see and tell them that you see how hard it is that what they’re going through and where in your life do you need to invite God in? That’s it for this week’s edition of the influential personal brand podcast. I love you. We’ll catch you next time. Bye. Bye.
Ep 296: Methods for a Better Marriage with Kathryn Gordon
RV (00:02):
What an absolute honor to get to interview one of our best friends. Kathryn Gordon first, and, and foremost is a, is become a really close friend of my wife, AJ Vaden. Of course, our CEO, my business partner. They have quickly become close friends. I have been close friends with her husband, John Gordon for years. And Catherine is extraordinary. So she is a mother. She’s a business woman. She’s a movie producer, she’s the best selling author of a book called relationship grit. And she’s the host of a podcast called Catherine for real podcast. As she won AJ over just kind of with like her spirit of honesty and authenticity and transparency and it just makes me so, so happy. And so John has been a mentor of mine for years. Obviously him and Catherine have been together for a very long time. They’ve built this whole business where they built John’s personal brand. They built an amazing family and then they built they launched a book together and now Catherine has been really developing her own personal brand here recently. And so we just wanna hear about that journey and basically I thought I could get some free relationship and marriage advice from Catherine Gordon to better understand my wife. And so anyways, Catherine, welcome to the show.
KG (01:28):
Oh Rory, thank you so much for having me. I love AJ. It’s like, it’s been an honor just to work with her recently trying to help me figure out my brand, but I love her as a human being. She is so authentic and so real and I just, you guys are both awesome and John of course thinks the world of you. So thanks for having me on.
RV (01:52):
Yeah. Well, thank you. So one of the, one of the things that doesn’t happen that often is finding entrepreneur couples, where they both work in the business, like both in inside of personal branding, where they both have personal brands. And I think, you know, that’s something that we have done and there’s a few others. Sometimes they’ll work together and, and one person has more of the personal brand and the other person is more like kind of behind the scenes, but you and John both have these external facing these great personal brands, you wrote the book together. And so I, I thought we would start with the book. So relationship grit comes out. It’s a best seller. You guys did this. So tell me about that book. Why did you write that book? And let’s kind of start, start with what that’s all about.
KG (02:50):
All right. So, you know, it’s funny because you were talking about couples having their own personal brand and early on when John was just starting. Well, we actually started or started with a FRA franchise called Mo Southwest grill and we brought it down to Florida and we worked side by side. John was in the restaurant doing his thing and I would, would be at home the waiting for the kids to get off the bus, but also doing the bookkeeping and payroll. And, you know, John would come home. I was trying to book him to speak while we were running this restaurant, cuz he really wanted to, you know, get out there and start speaking. And he would come home after I had done like 45 things and he would ask me if I had done the 46 thing. So I wanted to kill him.
KG (03:40):
So it wasn’t always that we did this together. Okay. It was so funny because you know, one night after he had done this, he actually, you know, wanted to be, my husband like wanted to be intimate. I’m like, I don’t even like you. And he said, I think I might need to fire you. I think you, and I thought that’s a good idea. So, you know, we kind of rode this wave and, and, and John Rose up in the speaking. And then once I had raised our children, we had raised our children. I started to run into women at the grocery store or, you know, at the shopping mall and they would just open up to me and complain or pine or tell me, you know, things that were going on in their own marriage. And several of them were, were headed for divorce.
KG (04:33):
And the more I started talking to them, the more I realized I started to see a pattern. And it, it was really simple things because the one question I seemed to always ask when these women would, would tell me what was going on was, have you shared that with him? Did you communicate with that with him and nine times outta 10? No. And so I was really shocked to find that so many couples are married, but they don’t communicate. So I went home to John and the more I started talking about this, I said, I really feel like we need to write a book because our book is not a book about, oh my gosh, look at us. Our marriage is so great. Look what we did. Here’s all the great things about our marriage. Our book is about here is what we went through.
KG (05:25):
We went through the trenches. I mean, we went through some really, really hard times. I was very, very sick early on. There was some infidelity, there’s been some substance abuse. I mean, we’ve really ran the gamut. And so I really felt like if we could, if we could, if we could make it, anybody could. And so I wanted to write this book to, to try and save marriages. And so in the book, the way we wrote it, and even the way we wrote, it’s very symbiotic of our relationship. I would sit down and write a chapter and, and, and get up. John would sit down, edit what I wrote and then write his own and vice versa. I’d edit him and he’d edit me. But it was a back and forth. Our book is a back and forth. It’s the it’s Catherine said and it’s John said. And so that was the reason we, we wanted to write this book and it was, I think no coincidence that it ended up coming out right before the pandemic, because I have to tell you, there were times during the pandemic, John Gordon was home 24 hours a
RV (06:36):
KG (06:37):
Now listen, Laurie.
RV (06:39):
After years of being gone. Yes.
KG (06:41):
For, for the year before he had done 85 speaking engagements on the road, all of a sudden he was like, literally with me nonstop. So definitely there were times we had to open up the book and, and take some of our own advice.
RV (06:56):
RV (08:12):
And how are we saving for the kids? This are we’re going on vacation. We need a new car and da, da, da, da. And then it’s like, you get to the end of the day. And you’re like, I’m exhausted. Like, I, I don’t wanna think, I, I, I can’t think like I don’t, I don’t have anything left. And so you go by the time the kids go to sleep and everything is quiet and you’ve eaten dinner and you’ve cleaned up and it’s like, you got, you got nothing left. So is that kind of what y’all were going through? Cuz I I’m describing, I’m not describing my life. I’m describing other people’s lives, but I’ve heard that other people have this, this scenario.
KG (08:47):
Well, Rory, you just described our life. I mean, yes, it was, it was hard. And so what I tell couples, because I actually hear exactly what you just said all the time. We all, I think struggle with that to one degree or another. I think at the end of the day, you need to realize that you’re a team and it’s it’s we, not me. What are the things that we found that was, was really helpful for us is going the extra mile. It’s that little thing. And trust me, John would come in, he had been traveling nonstop. I wanted to pounce on him to rather share, you know, a good or bad situation with one of our kids. So I had to figure out, you know what, I need to give John this buffer zone. And so we need to give each other buffer zones.
KG (09:41):
And then after that, really, even though what you really wanna do is look after yourself, try to give a little bit of time what, whatever it is, you know, go out and help, help your wife unload the groceries. Just really try to, to, to give, even though you feel like you’re, you’re about, you know, you’ve, you’ve reached your limit. What we started to find John’s word one year was oh my gosh, I gotta make sure I say it, say it right. It was serve. And it was the best year of my life.
KG (10:40):
And that’s the last thing John wanted to do, but he did it. And I gotta tell you by the end of that year and it wasn’t just him giving, of course it was me and F you know, whatever we needed at the time. Mm-Hmm
RV (11:23):
Yeah. That it’s, it’s also a, it’s also shockingly scary how quickly you can turn against each other. Mm-Hmm
KG (12:11):
I think it’s different things they’re not communicating, but just in general, just say let me give you an example. Well, I’m trying to think a girlfriend the other day was just saying something she’s home. She’s taking care of the kids. Mm-Hmm
RV (13:48):
John, let me, let me tell you, I know I have figured out through an, an unfortunate repeated occurrence of doing this at the wrong time. I know one time you should not communicate you should not give feedback to your spouse in response to them giving feedback to you.
KG (14:36):
A hundred percent? It’s funny you say that John Gordon used to do the same thing. And with us, it used to be really more related to the kids. Also, you know, where, you know, I’d say, well, he’d say, well, you really need to be doing this. Or, you know, and I’d say, well, you need to be doing this. Yeah. That doesn’t serve anybody. So you’re right.
RV (15:50):
I wanna ask you about the little kids, right? So Jasper just turned five. Our oldest and then Liam is a, a, just a couple months here, away from being three. And I was having this conversation with a friend because I’m like these last few years with kids have been some of the most beautiful and fun and joyous. And also for me personally, probably the most difficult years that I’ve ever had. And I was telling them, like, not only is it kids, we also are in year four of a startup. And we already did this once before, like we already went through the pains of a startup once and we’re having to do it again. And then we had COVID and then it’s like in the middle of COVID. And like, when it, with the kids specifically, like in my mind, I have a little bit of a proof of concept with COVID because, you know, when we were building our first business, we started in 2006, but sort of the height of it really happened around 2008, 2010.
RV (16:56):
And that was right in the middle of the GE C the global economic crisis, like the mortgage, you know, all of the mortgages collapsed and all that stuff. And, you know, it was like, that was a, a hard season, but we came out of it and we came out of it really strong. We’ve also had the startup thing before with children. People say it gets easier over time. So like, I know that it gets easier with the business, like a little bit. But is if someone has young kids right now, is that really true? I mean, like, do you really think, Hey, those early years are different or is it always kind of just, this is just the new normal
KG (17:35):
Mm-Hmm
RV (18:19):
I’ve not heard, I’ve not heard that one before.
KG (18:21):
RV (19:21):
It’s
KG (19:21):
Relationship, grit, book.com. And there’s an action plan in there.
RV (19:27):
I just texted her that question. So I’m gonna see what she says. Yeah.
KG (19:35):
Yeah. But I’ll tell you yeah.
RV (19:37):
Relation, sorry. Relationship grit,
KG (19:40):
Relationship grit, book,
RV (19:44):
Book.Com.Com. Okay. Yeah, we’ll put it.
KG (19:46):
I have to make sure and ask Daniel if it’s back slash action plan, but
RV (19:51):
Yeah. Daniel Decker, didn’t you meet Daniel Decker at most. Isn’t that how you guys met back to Mo that was,
KG (19:56):
Can you believe this was so long ago? I mean, this was 21 years ago that these guys have been together ride in this energy bus wave that they’ve done. Yeah, I think so. I think he brought his kids in for kitty, the clown night.
RV (20:17):
Well, I I’ll, I, I love that. Shout out to Daniel Decker. I’m we’ve been working closely together on ed by let’s book launch. So I’ve got to know, know him a lot more here recently, but the, okay, so you gotta find ways to communicate. So, so this is the hardest times, little kids, little problems, big kids, big problems. That makes, makes sense. When does it start to turn? Like what you say that like with kids, Hey, these are the, the hardest times like, cuz I think what makes it so hard is like, I never knew how self-centered I was until I had kids. Like even when I, we got married, I realized, oh, like I’m, you know, I’ve never had to worry about anyone else, but me, but, but when we had kids, it went to a whole nother level where it’s like, I don’t get to sleep.
RV (21:04):
I don’t get to eat. I don’t get to go to the bathroom alone. Like I don’t get to read a book on the weekend. I don’t get to lay on the beach. Like the beach is not a relaxing experience whatsoever with children. Like it, it is, it is the weekends. I’m more physically exhausted on the weekends than I am during the week. And also the battle of, you know, having toddlers and like just trying to communicate with them. So at some point that starts to turn and that’s encouraging to me to hear you say like, look, these are the toughest times. If you can get through this as a team, like you’ll make it through anything. What is that? I kind of feel like that’s happened with Jasper at like four or five years old. It kind of feels like it’s starting to turn the corner a bit.
KG (21:49):
Yeah. You know, I gotta tell you those when they were little. Woo. I’ll never forget a life changing moment for me was the day I was able to sit in the, at the beach in a chair and not have to run after the kids in the water. You know, I, there were little milestones where I’m like, oh my gosh, I can actually sit here. So yes, it just continually continually will improve. But like I said, you know, then you’ll start doing, if they’re in sports, it’s who’s gonna drive them. And the other thing I wanna say, Rory is, you know, you’re two professionals, so you and AJ are both, you know, you’re, you’re, you’re running this company and I have found, I’m gonna say this for the women in general. And I understand why, but a lot more does fall on the mom. It does.
KG (22:44):
It does, even though John was very involved with the kids in a lot of ways, ultimately it’s mom. And so it’s about having that grace for mom. And I always tell this story too. I think it’s really important to compliment, you know, your spouse and just lift them up. So I tell this story that one year when we were really in it, like I, like I say, it was very stressful. John was traveling all the times time. Both the kids were in elite sports and I was traveling all over the place, my kids and I have celiac disease. So we can’t just go to a drive through a McDonald’s and eat. I had to prepare
RV (23:30):
All of you have Celiac’s disease. Yeah.
KG (23:34):
Yeah. Whoa.
RV (23:35):
So
KG (23:35):
It was, it was really hard and I will never forget one day John coming in and he, he was getting ready to head out, you know, on another flight. And he was, had this suit on, he was all clean. He looked so handsome and Rory, I, my hair was disheveled. I’m, you know, trying to get the kids lunches. And I looked over at him and I wanted to cut him down so bad, but I didn’t, I, I, right then I realized it’s because I, I felt bad about myself, but I just thought, you know what? I turned, I looked at him. I said, you look so handsome in that suit and just complimented his face, just lit up. And I, I made a decision from that point on that I was going to compliment him and lift him up Mo at most, when I was feeling the lowest and just do this little test for myself and I’m gotta tell you, it really changed things for me. And so now I always tell couple couples compliment each other. You know, even though you probably wanna kill ’em compliment, ’em, you’ll be surprised how it changes the energy and the dynamic in your relationship together. Yeah. So Rory, you gotta stick it out. You gotta stick it out. It’s hard during these times. So like I said, one of the things is when, when, when they get outta diapers, that’s a big one is Japer outta diapers is Japer your youngest.
RV (25:04):
Liam is our youngest and, and he is out of diapers right now. We happen to be in overnight potty training. So we are waking up, he potty training in the middle of, so during the day, like, it’s, it is mostly he’s good, but we have to get up in the middle of the night to take him to the bathroom and sometimes, you know, change the sheets and all that stuff. But mostly if we wake up in the middle of the night, he’s fine. So like, we’re, we’re getting closer to that. The other thing is like, we went to a hockey game the other night and it was, it was, we got to watch like two thirds of the game before they started going crazy and running around the hallways. But it was like, oh, we’re almost, we can almost watch a whole movie. We can almost watch a whole game.
RV (25:45):
But you know, you, you, I wanna ask you this, Catherine, you mentioned the grace part cuz cuz yeah, it’s been hard on me. Mm-Hmm
KG (26:53):
RV (26:54):
So, so anyways, I, I say all that to say this, you mentioned, you know, give mom grace mm-hmm
KG (27:34):
I, I can’t tell you how many times I would be on the phone at night and you know, you know, complaining dumping on John. And then I’d say, let me guess you’ve got the TV on and you can watch whatever you want right now. Right. I mean, it was hard. I
RV (27:51):
Think. How do we support our wives better in that, in that season?
KG (27:55):
I think exactly by what you just said, supporting your wives, meaning saying exactly the things that you’re saying to me right now and acknowledging to AJ, AJ, I know this is hard for you, you know, I know and acknowledging sometimes, and I’m, I can share this about John and I, John would almost wanna play it down because he, he was almost afraid if he really acknowledged how hard it was that it was gonna somehow change what he was doing. Does that make sense until he realized by actually acknowledging how hard it was for me and asking me, how can I support you? It, it really helped us. And then it didn’t make me look over at him with such, you know, resentment. I was able to, I felt acknowledged. I felt appreciated. Right? And then at the end of the day, I had to say to myself, of course I love my kids.
KG (28:56):
This is what I wanna do for my kids. So it kind of changed, you know, it’s the thing that John always says, like it’s the, the, the get to versus the have to, but it’s the same thing. You know, it kind of changed my paradigm to say, I get to do this, but let me tell you when, when, when you’re getting beaten down, you know, as I think moms do more than, but I hear what you’re saying. When you say Rory, I mean, it’s hard for both of you, but yeah. I think you need to support her number one, by just acknowledging that it is hard
RV (29:29):
And that yeah. I,
KG (29:30):
And that you see her
RV (29:31):
And it’s like the, the, the, the, the dads, at least I could tell her to, let me just speak for myself, but we get beat down too. The difference is we get a break in between the action. Like mom gets no break. It, it is nonstop even in the middle of the night, even if the kids are fine, she’s still waking up, worrying about them and like getting up and having to like, deal with stuff like the laundry, what they’re gonna wear, like whatever, having a, having a fit. You know, I, I think you know, that is, that is helpful about just going, Hey, acknowledge what I hear you saying is just going, like, acknowledge that it’s difficult because it’s, it’s not, it’s not so much that she wants you to do it. She just wants someone to see that she’s doing it.
KG (30:20):
Yeah. It’s not gonna change tho that workload is not gonna change. I mean, yes, you can hire different things, but ultimately it is mom. I mean, it is, mom is, is gonna figure it all out, but it’s really about acknowledging how hard it is. And then how can I support you now? I’m gonna tell you, I encourage couples. If you do have a hard time communicating, if you are hitting a brick wall in some area, there’s nothing wrong with getting some outside help. Sometimes it does take somebody outside of the relationship to coach, you know, coach and help get, get you all to a place of where, you know, you’re, you’re operating smoothly, cuz sometimes, you know, maybe you are so beaten down or, you know, you’re not able to hear it. You’re too defensive. Right. You’ve got the point where you’re, you’re too defensive. So in that case, you know, I highly recommend some coaching or some therapy
RV (31:24):
Mm-Hmm
KG (31:24):
RV (31:36):
Yeah, no, I, I love that. It’s I think it’s super helpful to, for people just almost as a permission thing to be like, Hey, it doesn’t mean you’re failing or that you screwed up or that there’s something wrong with you to get outside. Help. I also love what Jack Canfield says where he says if you do it before, there’s, if you do it before like before there’s an explosion, it’s called coaching. If you do it after there’s an explosion, it’s called therapy, but they’re the same thing. And if you, you know, you probably want to catch it on the front end as much as you can to avoid the it avoid the, the big explosion. Yeah. Kathryn, I love this. This has been so, so helpful. I have one, one last question I wanna ask you before that, where again, where should people go to find you and connect up with what you’re doing and like all, all of this stuff that you’re working on in your personal brand these days? Well,
KG (32:31):
And I also have a podcast called Catherine for real. And you can hear that on Spotify or apple. And my podcast is basically me interviewing people and I’m, I’m getting real. And AJ, your one wonderful wife has really helped me to, to, to clarify more of what I want to give and the type of people I wanna interview going forward. So check that out, Katherine, for real, and you can reach [email protected]. That’s my website. And on the website, you can access my my podcast. You can find me on Instagram, through there at Katherine Gordon. You can email me to reach out and there’s a link to order my book. And I’m gonna tell you something, I’m not just saying this because I wrote the book. I promise you read my book. It’s a quick, easy read, you know, follow the tips in the back, John and I both give 11 tips each on ways to improve your marriage and do the action plan. I, I get so many testimonials all the time from people to tell me it, it saved their marriage. So I’m, I’m not just saying that. I really believe it. If you, if you can, can check that out, read the book. I think it will help. So Rory, I’m gonna be, I’m gonna be questioning you. I want you to know that
RV (33:57):
I love it. I love it. So we’ll put links up to Kathryn for real.com. The relationship grit book, the Kathryn for real podcast will link all that in the show notes for y’all. Last question for you, Kathryn. You know, like I think of my mom who was a single mom, which is insane. I mean, she had two of us, two of us that were five years, two boys, five years apart. And how many times she must have felt unseen and like having to, you know, forego her personal dreams and visions and freedom and re relaxation. And now watching AJ do that as a mother, hearing your story. Like I just, I have a, a heartbreak for women who are doing so much and feeling so unseen mm-hmm
KG (35:03):
Mm, well, first I’d say pray, right? I really feel like my prayers and my connection with God has helped me a lot in trying to kind of pulls me outta myself and gives me some perspective. But the other thing I’m gonna say is, is nothing is forever and nothing is permanent. And remembering your why, you know, at the end of the day with my kids, when I would, you know, was running them around and you know, they were playing all these sports and I would, you know, sometimes get resentful. I started to realize like, you know what, I didn’t grow up having a, I had two alcoholic parents that had no interest in anything I was doing, and this was something I wanted to give back to my kids. And so I need to be doing that with love and knowing that one day they’re gonna grow up and one day I won’t have to do that. And so nothing’s permanent. Remember your why and pray?
RV (36:06):
I love it. Katherine Gordon, my friends, you see why we love her so much and make sure you follow her online and go check out her website and everything. Katherine, thank you so much. We wish you all the best. We’re praying for you and John and we’re excited to we’ll see you soon.
KG (36:23):
Thank you, Rory. Thanks for having me.
Ep 295: Keys to Powerful Presentations from My Favorite Hollywood Actress Stephanie Szostak | Recap Episode
RV (00:07):
Hey brand builder, Rory Vaden here. Thank you so much for taking the time to check out this interview as always, it’s our honor to provide it to you for free and wanted to let you know there’s no big sales pitch or anything coming at the end. However, if you are someone who is looking to build and monetize your personal brand, we would love to talk to you and get to know you a little bit and hear about some of your dreams and visions and share with you a little bit about what we’re up to to see if we might be a fit. So if you’re interested in a free strategy call with someone from our team, we would love to hear from you. You can do that at brand builders, group.com/pod call brand builders, group.com/pod call. We hope to talk to you soon.
AJV (00:54):
Hey, all, welcome to the recap episode of my conversation with Stephanie Szostak, who is my favorite Hollywood actress
AJV (01:48):
And it was a very non-traditional route and it was a great reminder to me. And what I wanna share on this recap episode is that it’s never too late. It’s never too late to start something new, to find your calling and be the best at it that you can possibly be. And I love this because Stephanie started her modeling and her acting to career in her late twenties. Y’all most people are starting their modeling careers in their late teens, not their late twenties. So in theory, she was a decade behind the ball. And also this isn’t recent, right? This was now almost 20 years ago. So this wasn’t common for that time period for her to be doing this in her late twenties, but she did. And then she started acting and it’s like, she got at her start quote unquote late, but I don’t think it was late.
AJV (02:35):
I think it was perfectly time for exactly where she was doing, what she was meant to do at that time of her life. That’s true for you too. It’s true for me. It was true for her. And it’s true for you. You are not too old. You are not too young. It is not too early. It is not too late to do what you feel like you were called to do, to do what you’re passionate about doing the time is right now. And it’s the best time. It’s the best time, right. Frigging now. So I love that and I loved her story. I just love her story in general of, it’s never too late to reinvent and to be something new and to be somebody new and not being afraid to do that. And yeah, it will cause new learning curves and changes, but that’s okay because if that’s what you’re called to do, it’s all worth it.
AJV (03:26):
I love this quote and I’m, I don’t have the, the name of the person who quoted this, but I’m gonna share it anyways, even though I cannot give credit where credit is due, this is not my quote, do not quote me on this. But it’s like, it’s going to be hard, but cause you’re passionate about it. It’ll all be worth it. I will find the author of that quote and put it in the show notes, but I love that quote. It’s like, yeah, it’s gonna be hard, but because you’re passionate about it, it will all be worth it. And that is a great reminder of one of big takeaways I took from this episode of just accounting, her story of how she got into acting and modeling. And today she has been in so many amazing movies and shows and is incredible at what she does.
AJV (04:14):
But started in her late twenties seemingly too late, but actually perfectly timed for exactly where she should be and what she should be doing. Okay. That was the first thing. The next two things do have to do with some presentation tips and I love this and I, I think these are really important for anyone who gives presentations. And let me just be clear. School teachers give presentations, parents give presentations, employees, employers, speakers, authors, consultants, podcasters. Yes. We all give presentations. Like if you are in a job of communicating to another human person, you give presentations, you just don’t view it that way, but you do. And that is a communication change that we all need to have in terms of public speaking and presentations. And I think it’s so interesting that, you know, the number one fear of people is public speaking, even above death.
AJV (05:06):
Like that’s just fascinating, but yet we all speak in public all the time. Like when do you not speak in public? Like you’re talking to strangers all the time when you order your coffee or you order food. And yes, I know they’re not like formal presentations, but are we afraid to do those things or is it just the idea of being in front of a group of people and being stared at and potentially judged and not knowing how they’re gonna perceive you? Is that what we’re really afraid of? Not the speaking itself, but really the fear of being judged. And I think that’s a better thing of what people are really afraid of. It’s not public speaking. It’s what if I don’t bring any value? Right? What if they don’t like it? What if they don’t like me? What if somebody records, it puts on the internet and I become a meme, right?
AJV (05:54):
That’s what we’re afraid of. Not public speaking, we’re not afraid of that. We’re afraid of all the things that come with public speaking. So I think that was in really good context of you gotta get really clear on like, what are you trying to convey and what emotion do you wanna convey when you’re doing it? And it can’t be a, an emotion of fear. That’s for dang sure. And so I think the first thing I’ve loved about this is she really gets in the mindset of you have to be in tune with what emotion are you trying to create before you go out and try to create it so simple, but yet still freaking hard to like really tap into it’s like, how do I wanna tell this story? How do I wanna deliver this message? How do I want the audience to feel?
AJV (06:43):
And in her case, you know, of viewers around the world, how do I want them to feel in this moment? And I think that comes back to again, something else that’s really important is we’re afraid when we make it all about us. But if we were to change our mindset on what it means to public speak or present or communicate, and we were less focused on how are we gonna sound? How are we gonna look? How are people gonna view us? And we were more concerned with how do I help them get this information in a way that’s gonna be impactful to them? How do I share this information in a way that they will receive it? Or how do I give it to them in a way that they will enjoy it, have fun with it, use it right? But if we make it about them, not us, it changes the landscape of how we create our presentations and how we communicate in general.
AJV (07:35):
But you gotta go with it with what do I want them to feel? Not how do I wanna feel? How do I want them to feel and start your presentation, start your plan for communication from there. So good. So, so good. Loved that. Third thing, last thing I’m gonna share, I’m trying to keep these under 10 minutes always for your listening convenience. But here’s the last thing that I would share that I thought was a really good takeaway is just how you get yourself in the mindset before you communicate or present. And that could be again to your family to a video camera like I’m doing right now. I’m not talking to anyone right now. I’m talking to myself on zoom, but I have all of you in mind. Right? So it’s like, I need to know. It’s like, what do I really want you to get from this?
AJV (08:22):
So it’s like, I’m not presenting to a group of people right now, but yet I am, I am presenting to a group of people because I have you all in mind. So how are you getting yourself in the right mind space, the right head space before you go in and present, right? So she gives ideas around like, do you have music that you listen to? Do you have affirmations that you read, right? Is there like some sort of body movement that you do? Do you have notes that you wanna look over, but what are you doing to get yourself in the right space to make sure that you bring your best self to that presentation or communication or video or whatever it is that encounter that it’s like, what are you doing to put yourself in like game mode? Right?
AJV (09:15):
So I don’t know why that came to mind, but it’s like, I’m pretty sure I’d have an idea of what I would do. I’d probably have some warm up rounds. I’d have my playlist prepared and ready to go. I would have my affirmations. Are we doing the same thing when we turn on that camera and hit record? Or are we doing that same thing before we address our team? Or are we doing that same thing before we have that one-on-one conversation? Or before we step on stage, before we hit go on a podcast interview, right? Are we, are we getting in game mode before we go and do it? So yeah, this was such a solid interview. So many applicable tips. And what I loved, it’s not just about being a presenter, IE, a speaker or an actress is about how to be a communicator. We all communicate. And this is, this applies to all of us. So how do we get in the mode of being good communicators? And just realizing like it’s about them. Not us is about them. Not us. Go listen to this episode, go check out the full thing, go look up Stephanie, show stack, coolest girl ever love her. Go check her out. Go listen to the episode and we’ll catch you next time on the influential personal brand. We’ll see. Y’all.
Ep 294: Keys to Powerful Presentations from My Favorite Hollywood Actress Stephanie Szostak
RV (00:07):
Hey brand builder, Rory Vaden here. Thank you so much for taking the time to check out this interview as always, it’s our honor to provide it to you for free and wanted to let you know there’s no big sales pitch or anything coming at the end. However, if you are someone who is looking to build and monetize your personal brand, we would love to talk to you and get to know you a little bit and hear about some of your dreams and visions and share with you a little bit about what we’re up to to see if we might be a fit. So if you’re interested in a free strategy call with someone from our team, we would love to hear from you. You can do that at brand builders, group.com/pod call brand builders, group.com/pod call. We hope to talk to you soon.
AJV (00:53):
Hello everyone. And welcome to another episode on the influential personal brand. This is AJ Vaden. I’m one of your co-hosts here CEO and co-founder of brand builders group. And today I’m so happy because I get to spend the next 45 minutes with one of the most awesome human beings on the planet and also a good friend and probably one of the most discreet, humble humans ever, because she would never tell you all of these amazing accomplishments
AJV (01:47):
But what I want everyone to know is why should you stick around in this conversation? So we’re gonna get to chat with Stephanie show stack today, who is just an incredible human being. But I think some things that you should know that maybe you don’t know, and if you’re not watching this, you clearly can’t see her face. So you may not recognize her name, but you would definitely recognize her face because she has been in some of the top Hollywood movies that are out there, iron man, three devil warriors product. One of the top hit shows on TV, a million little things I could go on and on and on. You have worked with some of the most well known actors and actresses across the world. But to me more importantly is your heart. It’s like you have done awesome things, but you are an amazing human being. And to get to share a little bit of you with our audience today is such an honor and such a treat. So welcome to show Stephanie,
SS (02:46):
Thank you for having me AJ
AJV (02:49):
SS (03:49):
Yes, not, not the traditional way I studied. First of all, I’m from France. I grew up in France and never thought about acting, never took an acting class. I came to the states to study business and to play golf at the college of women, Mary. And once I was done once I graduated, I moved to New York city and worked at Chanel in fashion. And then at 26 years old I just realized there was a little something inside of me that felt like I wasn’t, there was something missing and through a chance opportunity, I did a modeling gig. And then I thought, well, maybe I could be a model and figure out what I, what it is I really wanna do. And so I did that and then at 29 years old, so three years of modeling and then at 29 years old, I took an acting class. Again, I’m not quite sure why I just had this little voice that was like, I wanna take an acting class. I wanna take an acting class. And then there, I realized for the first time in my life, really that I loved something that I needed to do. Something that I, I was passionate about it. And I didn’t know if it was gonna be a profession. I just knew I needed to pursue it.
AJV (05:10):
So first of all, the fact that you pay attention to this little voice, I think says a lot about just a huge part of who you are and something I know from a huge part of our community is that most people feel like they have this calling on their life and they feel like they have this message within them. They feel like there’s this thing that they really wanna do, but for whatever reason, they don’t listen to that little voice. They don’t listen to that prompting. They push it down, they shove it away, lock it in a drawer and keep on with everyday life. So what was it about this that made you go, this is not a little voice I’m going to ignore. I’m gonna do something.
SS (05:51):
I think it’s curiosity. I, I don’t think, you know, right away I’m gonna do something. I’m gonna make a big move because that’s scary, but it’s just curiosity and just making one more step in that direction and exploring and being opened to whatever and also surround being surrounded by people who support those choices, I think is a huge one. And I’m really lucky you know, to be married to somebody who’s always supported that, that sense of adventure and yeah, go for it. Try it out.
AJV (06:31):
Yeah. I think, I think something you just said there, like really resonates is just being curious and it’s willing to go. Yeah. Like I don’t know everything and that’s okay. Even if this doesn’t work out, that’s okay. Even if it’s only one time that’s okay. But being adventurous and curious enough to even try.
SS (06:50):
Yeah. And throughout your whole life, like even now, you know, 20, some years later, just staying curious and not pigeon holding, is that the pigeonholing yes. Yourself into, oh, I’m an actor that I can’t do this because that would not fit now. Just be like, why not?
AJV (07:11):
SS (07:53):
Just, I, I, there’s an exercise that somebody had me do that I love and it’s called the impossible future. And it’s a great brainstorming exercise for all of your life. And so if there was no ops, the exercise is this. If there were no obstacles, no money obstacle, no nothing. What would be your impossible future and be as detailed as possible with your professional life personal life. And then once you describe it, how do you feel? And I think that’s the key point. Like you know, because maybe at first it’s outcomes and successes, but then why, how does that make me feel? And I think that will give for me when I did this, it helped me figure out what it is I was after really it brought clarity. And then after that, you’re like, okay, what’s the first thing I can do right now to go towards this. And it’s less daunting cuz you’re not chasing an outcome that is, you know, so far fetched, you’re just pursuing trying to be in alignment with what you’re striving for, to feel in your life.
AJV (09:10):
Yeah. And I think that’s really in line with a huge part of the calling on your life is to help other people kind of like find their truth. Right. Mm-hmm
SS (09:59):
SS (10:59):
Don’t judge yourself, accept it all and, and then move from there towards what you wanna do. But and your question was how do you stay true to yourself by playing other characters? Yeah, I think that can also be confusing at the beginning of my acting career. I certainly had a little bit of trouble sometimes, you know, drawing the line between reality and, and art. Because when you invest into a character, you can lose yourself a little bit in the character. But I think experience helps and being a mom and having kids really helps because you come home and, and there’s reality for you.
AJV (11:41):
SS (11:43):
But also when you talked about a brand, so it’s interesting cuz as an I, I worked with you and you were incredible at helping me actually figure out a message and or maybe if I even had a message, which I was not sure about, and I don’t really see it as having a brand or pursuing a brand or trying to put a brand out there for me, it’s more more clarifying my path or refining it and being curious and then bringing alignment between all of these facets of my life. And then you help me be like, there’s the brand, but I don’t, I don’t think of it that way, if that makes sense. So it’s more about staying in alignment personally with all the different facets of my life. And then if there is a brand at the end of the day, great
AJV (12:43):
SS (13:08):
Connection. Yeah.
AJV (13:09):
Connection. And helping people feel wanted and feeling a part of something. Right. And a huge part of that. That is your story of coming from another country. And I think there there’s a challenge and most people think, well, there’s just, I just do too many different things, but most of us all have a through line. If we just sit down and take a little bit of extra fine tuning work to connect the dots to make together. And so let’s, I wanna talk about two things, cuz I know that I could easily spend the next 25 minutes just picking your brain on all these curious things that I have for you. But there’s two really significant things that I think you’re gonna bring a ton of value and insight for, into our audience. And so the first one has to do with your profession, right?
AJV (13:59):
You’re an actor and incredible one at that. I love getting to watch you on screen and now that I know you, I go back and I’m like, I know this person it’s such a treat for me to get to see you in your element. I love that. But one of the things is that so many of the people that listen to our podcast and are part of our, our community they present in some fashion, right? They’re making content videos on social media or they’re a professional speaker or they’re an aspiring speaker or they’re doing interviews for the media or maybe it’s even just presenting to their, their team or their company. And so I think it would be really awesome to go, what are some, you know, tips of the trade of being powerful in front of other people or being powerful on the screen to connect with people and engage with people and draw them in emotionally. So what do you got for us? What are tips of the
SS (14:55):
Trip? Hmm. Okay. So, you know, as an actor, you can work from the outside in or the inside out. So because the outside in is your wardrobe. So let’s start with that.
SS (15:58):
And I had a sweater on because I’m home and I, you know, we do all this at home. And then I was like, no, I feel sloppy with my, no, I need, I’m gonna put a blazer.
SS (17:08):
So adding images, subtext, be behind the words make, bringing yourself to it as much as you can be bringing your authenticity. And then having an objective that is bigger than yourself is big for enacting. And I think it transfers to people in life when we are trying to communicate something, we’re all nervous. We all are thinking of the outcome we want, but let’s have a bigger purpose. What is our why? And then when you’re, if you’re connecting to that, then it’s like, oh, you know, you, you, you bring something bigger and you connect. I think, I think it transcends just you and whatever you’re saying.
AJV (17:58):
Yeah. I know. You said two things there I think are potentially so simple that they’re overlooked, but are really, really significant. And I totally relate to what you said around I’m sure there’s been millions of people who’ve said that, but it’s like the way you dress actually impacts the way you represent yourself, that the way you stand, the way you walk, how you feel it’s like, Mmm. For probably 90% of today I had on my workout gear.
SS (19:06):
AJV (19:06):
Yes. I, I love that. I think that’s, especially in a time over the last two and a half years where so many people have been home for way too long. And perhaps not pulling out every day real outside of the house clothes. Right. Like, I’m pretty sure I had a six month stint where all I wore was work, all clothes. I’m pretty sure it was like six months. And there came a time where I’m like, good Lord. I have all these clothes. I should probably put them on. Right. And it was amazing. Like when I started dressing up, my husband was like, are you going somewhere?
SS (19:42):
That’s what my hu my husband, I would come down. He’d be like, where are you going? And I was like, I’m sick of feeling like that
AJV (19:49):
SS (20:29):
Yes. And, and, and there’s a power in images. Mm-Hmm
AJV (21:11):
I think that’s so important. And for someone who literally does this in front of a screen, right in front of cameras, for anyone who’s listening, who makes a content video or does a podcast, right? It’s like, you’re doing that for an audience of no one it’s literally you and a computer screen. So you almost have to tap into it even more for it to come across in a way that would draw someone in and be engaging. Otherwise it can really just feel like a talking head on a screen. And although the words have a lot of content and information and motivation without the delivery of it, we probably won’t last, very long listening.
SS (21:52):
Right. Exactly.
AJV (21:54):
Oh, I love that.
SS (21:54):
And I, and I think practicing if you’re, you know, if you’re preparing or, or it would, it’s an interesting exercise also to do it with different stim, like memories and you can see, oh, it’s very different when I think of this, as opposed to when I think of that.
AJV (22:12):
Oh, that’s interesting. Well, I think to that, it’s like practice actually practice your practice art
SS (22:18):
Practice, and then let go,
AJV (22:21):
SS (23:05):
But yes, for me, I can only speak for me, but, and I do think we all are different. Some of us need to prepare, prepare, prepare, and some of us are like, you’re incredible. I remember when we worked together, I just told you a story and you were like, okay, this is how it’s gonna go. And you just came up with, you know, how you would say it. And it was, I, I was amazed. I need to prepare if I don’t prepare, I’m lost. I prepare so much way too much
SS (24:00):
And I was able to be like, oh, this is, you know, re readjust some things I didn’t like, I would practice out of order my keynote. And then in the shower, I mean, in the shower driving randomly, I’d be like, okay, what’s this portion and just come up with it. And then the great thing for me about practicing when I’m either driving or in the shower, in those moments where you are not you can’t get out of wherever, you know, your box, your car or your shower is things. Things come into my mind and I’m like, ah, new things come into my mind. And I’m like, Ooh, I need to add this. I need to add that.
AJV (24:43):
I love that. You know, one of the things that I remember, oh my gosh, this is so long ago now. Maybe 17 years ago. I don’t know. It was a long time ago. Let’s just say 15 years plus
SS (25:56):
That’s I love that. I do that with, you know, when I listen to a podcast or listen, more of messages that I hear, and I’m like, I wanna remember that. But you’re talking about stories happening and that’s great. I love that
AJV (26:14):
Because I find for me, I dunno, that’s so good. I dunno if it’s just my mom brain or what, but if I don’t write it down, however impactful, it is seven days from now. I will not remember. Like, it just like, it just like evaporates from my, my brain and as the mom of a two year old and a five year old, at least 10 fascinating things happen every day.
SS (27:06):
I everything’s an art. Yes.
AJV (27:09):
It’s like, I want people to be drawn into my speeches, the way that I’m drawn into your movies. Mm-Hmm,
SS (27:21):
An emotional, an emotional arc. Yeah. To all relate to the person.
AJV (27:26):
I mean, I think that’s so much of it. It’s like, you’ve gotta like really live into the character and create those, create those emotions. It’s a, I don’t know if I’ve ever sat through a speech and said, have to watch it again, have to see again, right. Like we do in the movie because there’s, there’s drama and there’s humor. And there’s, you fall in love with characters or you hate characters. I bet you, you, you get enthralled in it. I can’t think of any keynote speech where I’m like, have to see it again right now. I’ll pay another admission. I don’t think I’ve ever said that, but I would love to find a way for people to start feeling that way about seeing people speak as they do about watching a Hollywood movie. Right. so I love that ability of how do we create that same amount of connection into speaking as you do into creating movies.
AJV (28:17):
So, all right. I’m gonna switch gears just a little bit, cause I’m watching the clock and I’m going, oh my gosh, we only have seven more minutes.
SS (28:59):
So our boob stories I was inspired one day when I was on set. My character had been taken the sexy route, which means in Hollywood that you know, I was wearing short dresses, padded bras, and stuffed bras. And not that big boobs are not sexy. I think they’re really sexy, but I, I don’t have big boobs. And I was like, gosh, I wonder what it’s like for young girls to grow up nowadays. And then I thought there’s a lot of talk out there about body image, body acceptance, and there’s no talk about boobs. And I thought, this is ridiculous. Don’t tell me we don’t think about our boobs because obviously we do. And so I wrote a poem with a friend of mine instead of being called, oh, the places you’ll go. It was called about, it was called, oh, the you’ll grow.
SS (29:49):
And it was about the ups and downs of boobs of life through our boob stories. And people started telling me when I would share the poem with them they started telling me about their boob stories and it was funny and touching and moving and sometimes tragic. And I thought, oh my gosh, that is actually a beautiful something that I want to collect. And I don’t know where this project is gonna go. But the, I think the reason is really, I would love to have something created, maybe a book for all young girls to read, you know, the ups and downs through the ages from budding to sagging that we all are insecure, that we all go through moments of the challenging moments, whether it be with nursing or cancer or so many things. There’s milestones that we go through in our lives in those milestones shape our us and our boobs. A lot of times, you know, sexuality and, and puberty motherhood, aging cancer. So right now I’m collecting boob stories. If you have a boob story, please go to Instagram at our boob stories and share your story.
AJV (31:16):
I love this so much. And clearly I know a ton of the background. I’ve read it, I’ve seen the pictures and the reason I wanted to bring it up is for two reasons, one it’s you listening to that inkling again, is you listening and you paying attention of, I see something here. I’m going to make the move
SS (32:47):
Yeah. And, and beyond that, and this is my overreaching message is really about acceptance and accepting what life throws at us with grace and compassion. And this is not something against getting a boob job or like just accepting, owning to who we are. And, you know, I want a boob job. I get a boob job and I own it. And this, this is how it makes how I feel better. But really about letting our light shine through the boob stories.
AJV (33:17):
SS (34:11):
Love, love for all the people around me and bringing love, giving love
AJV (34:20):
You do that.
SS (34:52):
Yeah, because you know, I just went to visit my son in college and when my husband and I drove BA were going back home, I, I kind of had a little bit of bad feeling. I was like, well, if our life ends right now, you know, we’ve done. Okay. Like, look at the love, look at we’re bringing up in two boys who have love and then the love around us. And so, yeah, I think love is a big, big thing.
AJV (35:21):
Ah, that’s so good. Okay. Only two questions left. I promise. So here’s the next one? What is something about Stephanie show stack that most people don’t know, but you wish they did know.
SS (35:34):
Oh, I eat any meat with bones. I will clean it. Clean beyond clean I’ll yeah.
AJV (35:43):
Oh, that’s awesome. That’s awesome. Meat eater, meat eater, meat
SS (35:47):
Eater.
AJV (35:49):
I would not have guessed to be honest. I would, that
SS (35:52):
Sounds naughty. I like it too.
AJV (35:55):
It’s like, I would not have guessed that if you were to ask me, I’d be like, she’s probably vegan. She’s probably like a lot of vegetables
SS (36:04):
But, but I’ll eat a rack, a rack of ribs, like I’ll clean the bones, you know, beyond clean. Awesome.
AJV (36:11):
That’s awesome. Alright. Last, all right. Last last question that I have for you is what would, what piece of advice, or even if it’s not advice, one piece of hope or inspiration, like what’s one thing that you would share to people out there. Who, again, they’re not quite sure what to do next, but they, they know they wanna do something different. They kind of feel like you did back in your twenties when you’re like, man, this just isn’t what I wanna be doing. There’s gotta be something else. What would you advice or encouragement? What would you say to them to help them make that next leap or make that next jump?
SS (36:56):
Self exam, self examination, like do the work. And I know I wasn’t ready to do it till I was in my forties. So it’s a lot of work, but just learn about yourself, figure out we all know what we’re about. We just, it’s hard to remember it because we get distracted. We get sidetracked, life throws us curves, and then we lose the path. But if we take a little bit of time and journal and there’s a lot of exercises out there that will help self-examine and figure out what your guiding principles are, what your values are that will help realize, oh, thi this is what I want my life to be about. And I think when you have a bigger objective, bigger meaning than what you wanna do, next becomes very clear and simplified.
AJV (37:57):
Mm. I love that. It’s self inspection self-reflection but getting to know yourself, mm-hmm,
SS (38:04):
AJV (38:22):
So it’s a re getting to know yourself. Mm-Hmm
SS (39:01):
Yeah. And how do I want sometimes, I mean, it’s such a, who am I, you know, the question of a lifetime, but what do I want to feel in life? What do I want to feel? And that, and why? And I think then you can say, well, what are my actions? Are they helping me feel that way?
AJV (40:17):
That’s good. You’ve got your code of arms and then your code of harms.
SS (40:21):
Yes.
AJV (40:22):
Yeah. I love that. And I know,
SS (40:23):
I love that
AJV (40:24):
You’re really into self development and it shows like you’re, you’re C full of different exercise and examples and stories. And I think that’s a huge part of a Testament of a great reminder to all of us. It’s like, if we don’t investigate who we are, then how would we expect to know? Like no wonder, we all feel confused and aren’t happy and sitting here going, how did I get here? It’s like, because we didn’t have direction. Right.
SS (40:51):
We didn’t, we need a compass, a compass. And then, yeah. So do, if you have your values, if you have your principles, your daily controllables, then that is, that can serve as a compass for every decision making. And, and
AJV (41:09):
I love that. I can easily continue just chatting and asking you tons of questions. Thank you so much for coming on the show and just sharing a little bit of your brilliance and who you are. And this has been such a treat such an honor. And I’ll put this in the show the show notes for everyone. But if you’re out there listening and you wanna connect with Stephanie, go to Stephanie show, stack.com. I know you’re gonna spell it wrong. Dot me, dot me, get it wrong. Stephanie show.me. We just had a conversation about that. But also I know most people are gonna spell that wrong. So it’s Stephanie S Z O S T a K, do me. I will put that in the show notes. And then if you do have a boob story go to our boob stories on Instagram, share your story, Stephanie, thank you so much for being here.
Speaker 4 (42:02):
Thank you, AJ. You’re the best
AJV (42:04):
Ep 293: How to Read People with Vanessa Van Edwards | Recap Episode
RV (00:02):
Vanessa van Edwards. One of the
RV (00:05):
Coolest
RV (00:06):
Sharpest, smartest personal brands that I think is in the marketplace and we’ve become pretty good friends over the last few years ever since sharing the stage together at global leadership summit a few years ago. And she is really, really impressive. And just the science of people is what her brand is all about. And it’s, it’s literally all, all of this about reading people and their nonverbals. And I just, I think it’s fascinating and I think it’s so cool how she’s taken such a specific tri like a specific skill set, you know, all the way down with a very specific type of communication and turned it into such a magnificent personal brand, built it on science and research and data and just, just a really great example and an awesome, awesome person. So this is a recap, obviously of my interview with Vanessa van Edwards, her new book cues is what we talked about.
RV (01:03):
And I mean, just that idea alone of the, the title of the book that are, that there are social signals that we subconsciously send to one another is really powerful. And that’s of course what the whole interview, what her book, her whole book is about. And so I’m gonna, I’m gonna share with you a couple of my highlights and in this case, you know, there’s two big highlights, and then I’m gonna, I’m gonna teach you something that is a part of our curriculum at brand builders group, which I haven’t, I don’t think we’ve ever covered on this podcast. And it’s, it is game changer. Like this technique is the single, maybe the single most powerful technique that we have that we invented. This is our proprietary technique that will make you a master communicator. And I’ll, I’ll tell you what it is. That’s gonna be my third takeaway. But my first takeaway, which is just good to hear, and it’s edifying for what we do and what we teach and you go, how has she built nearly a million subscribers on YouTube, this great social media following she’s consistently selling all these books and built a, a tremendous speaking career. And she said two words aggressively helpful,
RV (02:21):
Aggressively helpful. If
RV (02:24):
You want to get people to pay attention
RV (02:26):
To you, you need to be aggressively helpful. You have to be
RV (02:32):
Relentless. You have to be intentional. You have to
RV (02:34):
Be committed. You have to be dedicated. You have to be ruthless about the idea that your
RV (02:40):
Brand, your media company, your platforms, your podcast,
RV (02:43):
Your social, your YouTube, like your books, your, your, your blogs,
RV (02:48):
Whatever you’re putting out into the world, your keynotes,
RV (02:50):
Your, your
RV (02:51):
Podcast interviews, like when you’re a guest in someone else’s show your webinars, your lead magnets,
RV (02:56):
They have to be aggressively helpful.
RV (02:58):
They to be useful, right? Albert Einstein says you don’t try. Don’t try to be a person of, of influence. Try to be a, a person of, of utility, like be valuable to other people. And that’s the secret. Like that’s the secret don’t hold back. As we say, around here all the time, save the best for first, save the best for first, give away your best stuff. And, and that’s what keeps people coming back. And so it’s just powerful. And again, edifying to have so many like guests on this show who have built huge personal brands that then come and tell us, Hey, this is, this is how to do it. And that’s why we do it is, is because we’ve learned from a lot of them over the years. And we continue to learn from them and, and we can, and we teach you those things, right?
RV (03:49):
So how can you be aggressively helpful? How can you put out content that will dramatically change people’s lives, save the best for first, give it away, make a difference and watch how people show up and come back and share and invite friends. The second thing, which the second, my second takeaway is probably what I would say is my biggest takeaway from this interview. And it is not really what the topic of the conversation was about in terms of how to read people. This though was something I’ve never heard anybody say, at least not so clearly as Vanessa said it. And I almost didn’t ask her this question. And I said, but I, you know, I we’re watching the data of all these book launches, right? So we just, we just helped Tom and Lisa BIU with their book launch launch. We’re helping Eric ed Mylet with his huge book launch right now.
RV (04:44):
We’ve, we’ve, we’ve, pre-sold tens of thousands of units. And so we’re watching all these book launches and, you know, I’m seeing Vanessa clock through every week with several hundred units. And it’s really impressive. It’s very, very hard to do, to sell consistently several hundred units. And so I asked her, I said, Hey, what’s your secret? Like, how do you do the long tail, right? Because we have all this, you know, we have a, a great strategy for how to do a book launch and all the presales and everything leading up to it in like the first eight weeks and, you know, keeping it going. I mean, we’ve got now, in my opinion, perhaps one of the best, if not the best book, launching strategy that there is in the marketplace. And, you know, we got a lot of the results to back that up and prove it with several best selling authors that we have helped.
RV (05:28):
But this long tail long, you know, this long tail is something that I’ve always been super interested in and going man, like what you really want is not, you know, not just the big launch, you want the big launch, you want the big book launch because it lights the spark, right? Like it sets things into motion, but the true perennial bestsellers are these, you know, books that sell several hundred or even a few thousand units every single week for years. And, you know, other than writing a great book and, and hopefully having it propagate, there’s not that much that I’ve seen or heard or learned, or been able to reverse engineer about how to make that happen. And Vanessa shared this great secret, and this was like a light bulb for me. And she said basically that she sells books by SEO, SEO search engine optimization.
RV (06:24):
If you’re not familiar with that term, now we teach SEO. That is a part of our, our curriculum and our, our high traffic strategies training, which is one of our, our phase two trainings. For those of you that aren’t members, we have 12 different topics that are 12 different training, you know, kind of like modules that are they’re each two days. You know, so our entire education takes 24 days just to like go through the full education. It’s, it’s a lot, it usually takes people three or four years to get through it all. But like, so we teach search engine op search engine optimization, but never in connection with selling books. And it’s so simple, right. But it’s so brilliant because you go, how do you create this steady, consistent, long tail sell through of a book? And you go, well, what, what force is there in the world that is steady and consistent and long term?
RV (07:20):
And the answer is search people’s search behavior, they’re search habits. People are searching for terms on a very consistent basis. And if you can figure out what are the terms that people are searching for. And of course, you know, there’s lots of different tools for this, but one of the ones that we, the one that we use internally, which is also the one that sounds like Vanessa uses is called a refs, a refs. And it’s a tool that will tell you, you know, you could type in any term and it’ll tell you, this is how many times this term is searched every, every month on Google. And then you can also go to pages and see which, you know, how, which, how, which, which terms pages are scoring for et cetera, and, and what the average cost per click is. If you want to go out and buy one and what she said, which first of all, this was a tactical tip, which I did not know is that a HFS has a secret tab for YouTube, which is huge, cuz because YouTube is also a search engine.
RV (08:20):
So that means that you can use this tool, which you might already have. And you know, MOS is another one Uber suggests is another one. Like they all, they all, you know, do a decent job of, of what you need to do. But AHS specifically since that’s what we use, I don’t know about the other ones, cuz she didn’t talk about it. But has this a tool that will tell you about YouTube search? So how often are people searching specific terms on YouTube? And then all she did was she made a list of all those terms. And then she created videos that were specific to those questions, which happen every single month, right? People are, are continuously like repetitively searching those terms. And every single month new people are on YouTube searching. And so she creates, she said for like every single book, she creates 20 videos that specifically address these common questions and those specific term search terms that people are looking for. And she creates videos for those where the primary focus of the video, first of all, is to add value, right. To be aggressively helpful. But the secondary vehicle is to promote her book specifically. Right. And all it doesn’t have to be overt. It doesn’t have to be a huge pitch. She’s just adding valuable content. She’s optimizing her presence in the PLA in the marketplace for terms and then suggestively and gently sort of referencing that what she’s teaching is coming out of her book.
RV (09:56):
So genius, so simple, so actionable. So duplicatable, so something that we are going to do. I mean, what, I mean, that’s a huge, that’s a career altering that one idea like could be a career altering idea of just going, because if you, if you write a book that sells several hundred copies every week, like within a few years, that’s a lot of people that have read the book, that’s gonna change the trajectory of your entire career. Like this was a really big tip and not something that I have heard anywhere else. Like out of all the stuff we’ve read that we’ve looked at the courses we’ve been through the, the hundreds of authors that I’ve interviewed, no one has ever given me that tip. So that was a huge, huge tip and one that we are definitely getting into action mode on. So really, really brilliant and smart and simple.
RV (10:53):
So I hope you pick that up and you know, if you’re not selling books apply this to anything, right. You’re selling mouse traps or you’re selling cars or you’re selling battleships, figure out what are the search terms that people are searching for, create VI videos specific to, to those queries optimize the video so that they come up for those, do an awesome video and then make a suggestive call to action to whatever your product of service is like. So we even teach that with content marketing, but just have never thought about it or applied it to a book like it’s, it’s so simple. And it’s like, how did I miss this? How have I never thought about this? Well, UN you don’t UN until, you know, you don’t know until, you know, right. But you go man, one little tip like that, SuperDuper powerful.
RV (11:38):
The third takeaway was something that I’ve heard before. And so I wanted to share with you one of our favorite techniques, and this is something that I personally invented. You know, our team has polished over the years and, and is a formal part of our world class presentation, craft trainings. So the one of our phase three, or excuse me, the third training in our phase in our phase one curriculum is called world class presentation craft. And it applies very much to what Vanessa’s talking about here. And, you know, she said nonverbal communication is 69% of, of communication. And she was talking about how, it’s not the words that you say, it’s your facial expressions. It is your eyes. It’s the, your gestures, your body language, even the clothes you wear, the colors that are around you are all things that communicate in a very clear way.
RV (12:35):
Although, you know, somewhat subconsciously to the people around us. And then she was talking about how our, our vocal pace and cadence is a huge component of that. And so I wanna go ahead and share with you one of our favorite techniques of all time and this, we call this the vocal variety matrix, the vocal variety matrix. And it’s very, very simple, but it’s extremely powerful. So if you were to create a graph where the Y the Y axis was energy, so high, you know, at the top would be high energy at the bottom would be low energy. Okay. and then the Y axis would be like speed, where you know, let’s, let’s say all the way to the right is fast. And all the way to the left is slow. What happens is you have this natural separation of these four distinct quadrants and each quadrant represents a different utility of your voice. And when you master this VO, the, you know, this vocal variety matrix, we sometimes call it the emotions matrix because each different quadrant communicates a different emotion. And it doesn’t matter the words that you say, right? So let me, let me, let me talk this out for you. Right? So for example, quadrant number one is somebody who talks like with high energy, which is often also the volume is very loud and very fast, right? And so you talk like this, and when you
RV (14:00):
Talk really loud and really fast, what you’re doing
RV (14:02):
Is you’re adding a
RV (14:03):
Tremendous amount of energy and emotion and enthusiasm. It doesn’t matter what the words you’re gonna do. Like what the words are that you’re saying, don’t even matter. You’re creating this physiological change in the audience by just talking loud and fast with high energy and high speed that suddenly create excitement and enthusiasm
RV (14:18):
And energy. Similarly,
RV (14:21):
If I talk loud
RV (14:24):
And slow,
RV (14:26):
This
RV (14:27):
Has high energy, loud volume,
RV (14:30):
But slow pace, regardless of the words that come
RV (14:36):
Out of my mouth,
RV (14:39):
You talk like this
RV (14:41):
To create the emotion of respect, you’re commanding authority. You’re, you’re, you’re demonstrating your control, your credibility, your power. And then if I talk low and slow, low energy, low volume, and low speed, it creates a completely different emotional experience, a different energy, one of authenticity, vulnerability, honesty, transparency, connection, and trust. And then if I keep my energy low and I keep my volume low, but then I pick up my pace. All of a sudden I start adding suspense because just by adding, just by talking faster again, regardless of the words that I say, this, isn’t a matter of the words that we’re saying, we’re just talking about delivery here and here. This is what, this is probably the, the most underutilized quadrant of all the four quadrants. But this is somebody who just talks very low, but very fast, but it’s a mental game, right?
RV (16:20):
It’s, it’s mental exercise that forces you to concentrate, to lean in, to create suspense, to be, to be sort of curious, to be preoccupied with like, what’s he gonna say? And like trying to keep up with everything that’s going on and, and notice that no one quadrant is better than any of the others, the magic here, first of all, is that it doesn’t matter what you say, it’s using the vocal variety matrix to determine how you say, because all of a sudden, no matter what I’m saying, this is loud and it’s exciting and it’s fast pace. And then all of a sudden I drop it way down.
RV (16:55):
And I share the lesson that I learned from that story. And what this means for your life personally, is that you have to take this advice and you must go out and execute this behavior, this action. And then I can move on into the next story and set up the next story with back, you know, backstory on the characters and, and saving some time in my presentation by just sort of speeding along, keeping you mentally engaged and forcing you to have to listen, sit on the edge of your seat because of this suspense. And because of the, the way your mind has to be preoccupied with what I’m saying in order to keep up with how fast that I’m talking, but I’m moving through a lot of kind of insignificant details and trivial things just so I can set up the next story, baby. Cuz here we come, it’s getting exciting again.
RV (17:50):
Bam, isn’t that amazing? This is one of the secrets that has shaped my career. I mean, it is one of the biggest things that we coach speakers on when we work with them in world class presentation craft, this is part of, you know, how I created a viral Ted talk and got inducted in the professional speaking hall of fame and you know, became a two time world champion of public speaking finalist, helping people with the art of speaking is one of the things that we do most frequently at brand builders group, both their message, but also the, the mechanics of their delivery. And that technique is called the vocal variety matrix. We’re sharing it here for you for free on this podcast episode. Usually those kind of things, you have to be a paying member to get access to, but I wanted to share that one just as a special bonus giveaway in honor of my friend, Vanessa van Edwards, because of how much content she shared and how much I love what she’s about and just applying one of the techniques that we teach very much to what she is talking about here in the science of people.
RV (18:55):
So I hope you enjoyed that interview. Hey, share this recap edition with someone who needs to hear it. Somebody who you know, is, is trying to build their personal brand and, and the interview as always tell your friends. And if you can leave a review on iTunes or wherever you listen to the podcast that helps us tremendously, you know, we’ll share another ad for that here in just a second, but we really, really need that help. And that’s why we’re here every single week, bringing you the best of the best that we can from our friends and community, and also drop dropping in with our tips and recaps and highlights. So thanks for being here. We’ll catch you next time on the influential personal brand podcast.
Ep 292: How to Read People with Vanessa Van Edwards
RV (00:02):
Vanessa van Edwards. I met her, we shared the stage together at GLS global leadership summit. She was awesome. She got amazing feedback, you know, from close friends and clients, people that I love and trust. I started following her, checking out what she’s into and the more I get to meet her, the more I think she’s just awesome. She’s got great content. We’re gonna talk about, we’re gonna talk about that a little bit today. So she has a new book out called cues. So her first book was called captivate. The science of succeeding with people it’s translated into 16 languages. She’s had more than 50 million people watch her videos on YouTube and her Ted talk. She has a massive YouTube channel, hundreds of thousands of subscribers. Mm-Hmm
VVE (01:08):
Thank you so much for having me. It’s so great to be back with you and talk about everything. You know, I love a cue. You send good cues, worry. I love your
RV (01:16):
Cues. You do. Oh, what is okay. Tell us. Okay. So tell us cues, tell us about the, so this is the new book and yes. And everything you do is basically science backed communication skills ish, right?
VVE (01:29):
Oh man. That’s it. That’s it. So, yes. So I’m a recovering awkward person. So I learn social skills and communication with black and white formulas blueprints. I like to lay it out. And so this journey for this book, so a queue is a social signal, human sent to each other. I never thought I would write this book. I never thought I would write it. This was a, a secret science that I was embarrassed about. Like it started off for my own use. And I’ll tell you the moment it started. So 17 years ago, I was in my, the peak of my awkward stage and I was watching Lance Armstrong on Larry King live. And Larry King asked Lance Armstrong, have you ever DOD? Now spoiler alert. Lance was doping. But in this interview he told a flat out outline. He said, Nope, I’ve never DOD.
VVE (02:16):
And then right after he said it, he did a lip purse. He pressed his lips into a firm line. Hmm. He pressed his lips down together. And I remember watching that interview and thinking, what was that? Like? My spy sense knew something was off, but that specific cue, I didn’t even know it was called the queue back then says, what was that? So I began to look in the research. What is that body language gesture. It turns out that is a universal sign of withholding. When humans wanna hold something back or keep it together or keep it in liars often do it. They press their lips together. We press their lip together to say, don’t say it don’t get yourself in
RV (02:49):
Trouble. Interesting. Interesting. I
VVE (02:51):
Was like, what? And so I started to see this lip purse on people, in shame, people in people who were lying. And I wondered, okay, what if we could study humans? Like we study foreign languages where we break down behavior into specific cues, into our trust cues, our power cues, our danger zone cues, our trust, our, our charisma cues. And that’s exactly what this book was. I was spent the last 17 years cataloging all these queues, seeing if we could learn to speak them.
RV (03:25):
So
VVE (03:33):
Yes.
RV (03:33):
Are they all physical? I mean, are, is that like, like, will you, cause when you say study it like a language, you know, when I hear like science back communication, a lot of times it’s like your voice and your, you know, you’re you’re but are these like more like gestures conscious or subconscious gestures?
VVE (03:49):
That’s a great question. So in the beginning it started off as all gestures. I was like, okay, nonverbal, right? Facial expression, gestures, posture, movement, eyebrow raises. Right. But then I realize, and the research actually backs us up as well is there’s actually different ways that we sh broadcast our cues. There’s four of them. So the first one is non-verbal and that’s actually the biggest 60 to 90% of our communication is non-verbal. And when I say that, people are always shocked. But think about, if someone were to say that they were fine, I’m fine. And hold like a really angry face. You would know they were not fine. In other words, we give more weight it’s nonverbal. So that’s the biggest one. The second one is vocal. So how we deliver our birds words, our pace, our cadence, our volume, our pitch. So how we say our words is just important as what we say, the third one is verbal.
VVE (04:35):
So the actual words we we use, of course, that’s how we communicate lots of cues and the hidden signals in our words. And I have a whole chapter on sort of the secret things you can find out about someone’s charisma, simply based on the words they use in emails. And the last one, the one that’s forgotten is imagery. The colors we wear the props in our background, what we’re carrying in our profile photo even personality, even fonts have personality. The props that we use and jewelry wear. So imagery is the last small one.
RV (05:04):
Mm-Hmm
VVE (05:14):
Right now you’re you just got
RV (05:16):
Nervous, not fixing my hair. You
VVE (05:17):
Just got nervous. I saw
RV (05:19):
It cause you’re reading me
VVE (05:21):
Well a little bit. I can’t help it once. So this is a blessing and a curse. I will warn you. I should actually, I thought about having a warning at the beginning of the book and my publisher said no, which was that these cues, once you see them, you cannot unsee them.
RV (06:23):
A second. Don’t me break me down. Break me down sister.
VVE (06:26):
Okay. Let’s do it. So the reason why highly charismatic people are so charismatic is because they are purposefully sending off very positive cues of two traits. And this is exactly what the researchers found. Highly charismatic people have the perfect blend of warmth and competence that when we’re interacting
RV (06:44):
With competence with a
VVE (06:45):
P competence with a P not confidence, that’s, that’s, that’s a,
RV (06:49):
Yeah, that’s a big distinction. That’s an important distinction. It’s
VVE (06:51):
A really important thing. It’s not confidence. It’s competence. In other words, really highly charismatic. People are at the very same time, warm, open, collaborative, trustworthy, likable, but at the same time, they’re also competent, powerful, efficient, impressive, and productive. And the reason for that is because we like people who answer the two questions. Can I trust you? And can I rely on you? And so when I first met you, you were broadcasting. I think you might do it subconsciously. Cause since you haven’t read, I haven’t cues just came out. So I don’t think you read that one yet, is that you naturally are picking these cues that are both trustworthy and very competent, which makes me want to talk to you, engage with you, makes me wanna level up with you. And that’s because when we’re around care about people, we wanna catch that charisma. We like to, we feel like it rubs off on us too.
RV (07:43):
So what are some of the cues let’s talk about? Buying signals. Okay. Yeah. So if you’re an entrepreneur, you’re a personal brand. You may be a CPA or financial advisor, real estate mortgage, or maybe you’re a coach and you’re, you know, trying to go like, is this person ready to buy? Like those are classic cues. And that’s, you know, the world we came from was, is sales. And that’s part of it probably where I developed this, these learning queues is I knocked on, I knocked on over 20,000 doors. Like I did five years of knocking on doors. Right? So you, you pick up some of these things. What, what can I look for that tells me that somebody’s ready to buy, they’re ready to book me for the interview. They’re ready to buy my, my keynote or buy my book or buy my service or what, what am I looking for?
VVE (08:31):
Okay. So before we even get to that, I’m gonna make a really big statement, which is starts with a corny metaphor, which is that very, very brilliant people have, are it’s impossible for them to share their ideas if they have bad cues. And the way that I think about this as a metaphor is that if your ideas are a car, cues are a gas and this is the problem with really smart entrepreneurs, really smart business people is they have great ideas, a great product, a great service, and they cannot get it to move. They literally cannot get the gas for that car. And that is because really smart people rely too much on their ideas. I think. Well, my idea is great. I don’t have to worry about how I talk about it, cuz the idea is so good that it will just speak for itself.
VVE (09:11):
That does not work. Our ideas have to have cues deal to communicate. And so the very first thing that we think about before you even look for buying signals, which we can talk about is you need to make sure your website, your LinkedIn profile, your social media profile pictures, all are signaling or broadcasting, warmth and competence, your digital first impression when someone Googles you or they look at your LinkedIn profile, they look at your website. I actually count on our website, how many warmth and competence queues we have. I’ll give you a really basic example of how this works. Warmth are things that create the warm and fuzzies for us. Their stories they’re relatable, they’re likable. Competence are data, research, numbers, proof recommendations. So Casper mattress is one case study that I like to use. Cause it’s very, very easy way to think about this.
VVE (10:00):
Cause the reason I think that Casper blew up, I mean literally just destroyed the mattress market is not only because they have a great mattress. There’s been a lot of great matches in the past. But remember that’s like having a really good idea, not knowing how to share it. If you look at Casper’s website, they have the perfect balance of warmth sales cues and competent sales queues. Their tagline is obsessively engineered at outrageous comfort. Those are two. So talking about words, right words can also be warm and competent, competent words make us wanna do things. They make us wanna achieve things. Warm words make us feel good. So obsessively engineered are two competent cues. We like things that have a lot of research done, balanced with outrageous comfort and that makes us feel good. So their tagline is the perfect balance of warm and competent.
VVE (10:50):
If you go down their website, you’ll see pictures of kids jumping on beds, warm proof of our Casper labs with guys in lab coats, competent quote from Vogue about how your bed is your new desk. Funny, warm research, five stars, right from consumer reports, competent, warm clouds and pictures of people sleeping, warm comp like right? So you literally all the way down the website, you see this perfect balance that is tingling something deep inside of us as humans of I can trust this brand and I can rely on this brand. Does that make sense? That kind of breakdown.
RV (11:31):
Totally. Yeah. I mean that, that, that’s fascinating, right? I mean, if you’re gonna hire somebody, I mean, even if you think about how am I gonna, if I’m gonna hire someone to do a job, it’s like, can they do the job and am I gonna like working with them? Like it’s pretty much, what else is there? Are they gonna do a great job? And am I, are they not gonna annoy me? And like, you know, are they gonna, are they gonna be reliable and dependable and, and yes. And show up? I think that’s, I think that’s really fascinating. So, you know, cause that would translate to hiring. And so, you know, the way I process what you just said in the, in, in the reverse of, of sales is to go, what can I do to make myself more attractive in what I’m selling is, is go. So if I’m talking, then that means I’m using customer testimonials and stories and our purpose and our why. And then the competence is like how many clients we’ve worked with and the results we’ve achieved. And the testimonials
VVE (12:25):
Got five star test, five star testimonials all the media outlets, right? Like, so even my bio, right? You read that at the very start that if you count the number of warm and competent queues, you’ll find a perfect balance. So like science to people, my company’s name is very competent. I did that on purpose because I know women tend to default to higher and warmth. That’s just a, a, a basic gender difference. And so I knew that I had to use, I have to use a little more data, a little more research, a little more science to sort of balance out that natural aspect of who I am. So science of people, then the media logos, the media mentions, those are competent helping people that’s warm. Right. So exactly. As you mentioned, you’re balancing that out on the queues side for your buyers. So there’s two sides of queues, decoding and encoding. We’ve been talking about encoding, the signals you’ve sent to others. What’s just as important though, is decoding making sure you’re spotting the right queues in your, in your folks. Here’s my favorite sales queue where I would say customer report queue. If we don’t even say sales, which is the lower lid flex, I know this is a really weird one, but the lower lid flexes, we harden our lower lids as if we’re like swinging to see something better. Just your lower lids. There you go.
RV (13:33):
Your lower eyelids,
VVE (13:34):
Lower eyelid. Yeah. So if you, so if you try to see something across the room, you’ll harden, your lower lids. This is a natural biological response. And what research has found, the reason all humans do this across genders and cultures and races is because when we’re trying to see more detail, our lids close to block out the light, to see more detail, they found that when people are listening and their brain just went from listening to doubting or listening to scrutinizing are lower. Lids will flex as if our body’s going. I don’t know about that. This is the single biggest missed queue in sales. If you were on video call or you were in person, you’re going through your pitch, you’re sharing your great idea and you see that lower lid, flex pause, stop and ask questions. Does that make sense? Does that all good? You know, let me explain something else here. How’s that sound to you? You are going to get right in that moment. Any doubt, the biggest problem for sales folks are entrepreneurs is they don’t realize why they didn’t get the job. You know, they, they think it went well, they leave. And they’re like, why didn’t I get the job? Why didn’t they say yes, it’s probably because you missed that little lower lid flex. It’s signaled literally a, a, a Twitch in their brain that went, I dunno about that.
RV (14:47):
So you’re saying that that is a sign of skepticism.
VVE (14:51):
Yes. It’s a sign of,
RV (14:52):
So like when you focus, it’s like, you know, it’s like a side eye,
VVE (14:57):
It’s a side eye. It’s like, so yes. And it’s also it’s right before skepticism. So the nice thing about it is it just means intensity intense focus. So if you stop and you address it, you can actually prevent a future. No. Or skepticism from coming. We in our lab, we analyzed, you know, the show
RV (15:14):
Shows, I love that. That’s really, that’s really huge and important.
VVE (15:18):
It’s so powerful. It’s so powerful. And you see it now, you’ll see it all the time. You can see it on video too, which is amazing.
RV (15:22):
It’s like I critical, but I’m not yet skeptical. But if I catch you, if I catch you while you’re critical, I can win you back.
VVE (15:31):
There you go. Exactly. Right. So we saw this on we an I love the show shark tank, which is a show obviously where me
RV (15:37):
Too.
VVE (15:38):
I love, love that show. So we analyzed 495 shark tank pitches. It was thousands and thousands of hours of data looking for patterns. Was there things that successful entrepreneurs did in the tank that were more likely to get them a deal? And we noticed, and again, we’re, we’re looking at the show and you see a lot of cut footage, but on shark tank, the successful entrepreneurs would spot a shark, hardening their lower lids and then address their concern. Right? Kevin, you know, I see that you’re skeptical. Let me bring up some more data for you or Laurie. You know, I know this is a surprise for you, but here’s what we’re planning. We really wanna work with you. They were a dynamic on their feet, the worst pictures. And I, I talk about this a lot in the book. I break down Jamie Simoff shark tank pitch who pitched ring in the tank.
VVE (16:23):
So ring is a billion dollar company. He pitched ring in the shark tank and it completely bombed. This is what’s critically important is Jamie. Simoff had a billion dollar idea, right? Amazon acquired it for a billion dollars. Richard Branson invested Shaq invested, but he went on shark tank with this brilliant billion dollar idea. And it totally bombed that is because our ideas cannot stand by themselves. He delivered it so poorly without competence and warmth cues that everyone was out. And a couple years later, he came back into this shark tank as a, as an investor. So what happened in that pitch is he actually gave away all of his competence and warmth. He wanted his idea to speak for itself. But even though this company had amazing numbers and amazing growth, they could not buy into the idea because his cues were so bad.
RV (17:10):
What are some of the other common cues let’s go back to end coding. So what are the other common mistakes that people send? Like you might be on a first date, you might be trying to make a sales call. You might be trying to, you know, get a job.
VVE (17:24):
Let’s talk about what Jamie’s seminar should have done. Right? So like this is his pitch is so demonstrative. So end coding on the end coding side, the very first few words out of your mouth. So that could be hello. That could be, my name is Rory. That could be so good to see you. Okay. So the first 10 words out of your mouth are incredibly important for your vocal. First impression we are listening for confidence cues. I do say confidence with an F confidence. That is because when we hear someone who’s anxious, we don’t wanna catch it. And so we’re in the first 10 seconds, we’re listening for any vocal anxiety. The biggest way we give away our vocal anxiety is we use the question inflection on a statement. So Jamie’s seminar. He way he did this is he entered the tank where he knocked on the door.
VVE (18:08):
So he closed the doors to the tank and he knocked on the door cause he was trying to show like a doorbell. So he knocked on the door and his first line was this it’s Jamie here to pitch. So the question inflections, we go up at the end of our sentence, as if we’re asking a question, the problem is, is research has found this when people hear the question, inflection mistakenly used on a statement. My name is Vanessa. It’s Jamie here to pitch our brain goes from listening to scrutinizing. In other words, we know, wait a minute, something wasn’t right about that. So the most important thing you can do is in the first 10 seconds in person on the phone in video is go down at the end of your sentence. So it’s so good to see you. My name is Vanessa, and I’m really excited to pitch you this idea today, that’s downward, right? I’m keeping my words down. It actually signals high confidence. If I said, my name is Vanessa, I’m here to pitch. So happy to be here today. No, like you would know, I don’t want you don’t your brain doesn’t know why, but you know, you don’t like it.
RV (19:10):
Mm-Hmm
RV (20:02):
It’s like, they’re an expert on something and they get lost in, oh, it has to be beautiful and perfect. Where do I get a graphic designer and a video editor? And it’s like, you’re such a great example of like deliver the goods, add values to people’s lives, do it consistently a few basic things. So I love that. How do you do book launches? I’m curious about this because your books have done really, really well. And, and we do a lot of big launches, right. And we’ve done for our own books, big launches, but the thing that really makes the career, I mean, it helps to hit the New York times for sure. But what really makes the career is when you can have that book, you know, or books that sell 500 units every week, a thousand units. I mean, if, if you’re, if you’re, you know, if you’re lucky, you’ll, you’ll write, you know, John Gordon’s energy bus or Patrick, you know, Len’s five dysfunctions of a team and he’ll sell 2000 units, 5,000 units every week. But you know, like Ryan holiday is another person who’s done a great job of this. Like he, he does good launches, but it’s like, it’s not really about the launch. He sells 800 book, 800 units every week of all of his titles and you know, there’s spikes of course. And you’re you do that? And I love that. How do you do that?
VVE (21:19):
Yes. So yeah. Thank you. Thank you for, by way, for the kind words. So captivate came out in 2017. We had a nice, really big launch. I think we remember four on the wall street journalist. And since then, even, you know, five, six years later, we sell about 300, 600 copies a week and that, you know, amazing doesn’t include our spikes, right? Like sometimes we have spikes from events. Queues is doing extremely well, even better than captivate. We’re seven weeks out from that, but it’s still selling extremely well, probably a thousand or more a week. So the way that I like think about this is very weird. I have a very weird approach to this, which is YouTube is a search engine. And what I mean by that is people put YouTube in a social media category. It is not social media. It is a search engine, meaning people are not only going into YouTube and searching their needs.
VVE (22:07):
Google is also serving up YouTube as an answer to their needs. So for this reason, we think about, okay, who is our ideal person? Our ideal person is an incredibly brilliant professional entrepreneur, entrepreneur, both male and female. We literally have almost exactly split usually around 30 to 55. Okay. So I know my person, they’re really smart. They’re trying to level up their career. They’ve often been held back by some communication or soft skill. Okay. I know that person is what we do is we do specific keyword research and a reps. That’s the service we use. It’s like a software you can use. I think there’s a couple different ones out there.
RV (22:41):
Yeah. MOS or yeah, there’s a whole bunch of them. Yeah. Suggests et cetera. But AHS is, I think, I think that’s what our team uses too.
VVE (22:49):
A has a secret tab. It’s not so secret. Cause I’m about to tell you about it, which is most people use a for Google, we use a for YouTube. So I will go in the YouTube tab and I will search at first, first I think about what are the 50 to 20 keywords or search phrases. I think people are gonna use to get to a book. So for cues, I, you know, we, I started writing cues over two years ago. The very first thing I did is, okay, cues are about reading people, breaking down behavior, communication, charisma, right. I made a whole list of all those terms short and long. And then I had my writing team begin to pump out articles and especially video scripts for me on those specific keywords so that I can already come up for what I know my people are searching for and then serve them really helpful content, like really helpful, like free content, but then also the book. So before queues even came out, we were ranking one, two or three in those big spots for our YouTube videos, the articles are actually less important than the YouTube videos so that when someone is in YouTube and they search charismatic conversation or how to make small talk,
RV (23:57):
How, yeah. How to be more charismatic, like
VVE (23:59):
Ex exactly our videos come up and on the back end of the video, I’m selling the book and the bottom of the video, I’m selling the book. And so I think that every single entrepreneur, it doesn’t matter what you do. You should have a YouTube presence. And by the way, I don’t work for YouTube. I don’t teach YouTube courses. I don’t teach you how to sell on YouTube. So I had no reason to recommend this because I, I actually, it hurts me the more people who come on YouTube, but I feel so passionate about it because whatever your product service book is, if YouTube is a search engine, you have to have a presence on there for your top 50 keywords, because that’s a way that you’re gonna be able to drive people to your product or service. That is exactly how we sell books.
RV (24:38):
I mean, that is so brilliant. And, and, and, and simple, like simple because cuz I, we understand search engine optimization. We understand, you know, even like YouTube optimization, but just the idea of putting your book on there. And you said you put your book at the, at the back of the video and on the bottom. I, and I, I think you’re, you’re saying literally there’s like a, a, an ads, a buy button. Yeah,
VVE (25:04):
We literally, so at the, so first of all, just to get really into tactics is typically our videos will our videos around 10, 20 minutes an average, but you should have, you should mention your book organically or your service organically, ideally in the first third or half of the video. So while I’m teaching, while I’m getting highly valuable, really engaging tips, I never want someone to click on a video and feel like it was a waste of their time. Some point in the first third or half of the video, I will say, and all this research comes from queues. Be sure to check out on an Amazon or an audible. And then I keep delivering, keep delivering in the description of the video. I have not only a link to the Amazon on the audible, but I also, we use a plugin in YouTube. It has a little by mech shelf.
VVE (25:44):
So on our little by mech shelf below every video, actually, we don’t do it for every video. We only do it for videos that directly sell our books. I have cap date. I have queues. I have people school, our big master course. So it’s right below the video. And at the very end, I put a little promo to our book where I’m like, Hey, if you like these tips, check out cues, check out captivate, give this video a light, give a subscribe. I’ll be putting out free content every Wednesday. So that way there’s a couple of mentions. And what I found is I either get a subscribe because I’m delivering good content or they literally go go by the book.
RV (26:16):
You said there’s a, you’re using a plugin in the description.
VVE (26:20):
I am. Yes. It’s a special plugin. It’s QA. Y a I dunno how to say ITA, Chaya, Kaya. I don’t know QA. Y a but it’s a, it’s a plugin that we literally enabled for YouTube that adds a merch shelf, which is like another, that a lot of people, a merch shelf. Yeah. You can sell anything on there. So like if we have a course launch, like we have a lie detection course I can SW swap that into my me shelf on my LA detection related videos.
RV (26:47):
Oh. So basically like you, you can just make a change and it’ll roll through all those videos at once.
VVE (26:52):
It’s manual it’s manual
RV (26:54):
VVE (27:44):
And it’s going after your specific key terms, right. It’s not book promo for my new book. It’s not what it’s called. It’s called. How do you more charismatic how to read people, how to have conversations with anyone like it’s, it’s specific keywords. And so thinking really carefully about that is extremely helpful. And I think you, you don’t have to have videos forever. Like that’s optimistic it also people make cuz they’re like, oh, once I start a YouTube channel, I can never stop. I’m like, no, it’s a search engine. Create 20 incredible videos. My incredible, I don’t mean fancy. I mean just really high value and
RV (28:15):
Your like useful, those are useful.
VVE (28:17):
Those are your 20, like 98% of our ad revenue on YouTube. So we also run ads on YouTube. 98% of our ad revenue on YouTube is from my back catalog. So it doesn’t have to be that you’re posting new videos every week. No, most of my money and our views are from videos I posted eight years ago.
RV (28:35):
Mm-Hmm
VVE (28:43):
Yeah. I enable YouTube ads behind the video. Yeah.
RV (28:47):
Do, do you, do you run paid ads on YouTube?
VVE (28:52):
Like I do not run. Nope. I don’t. You
RV (28:54):
Don’t run ads for your stuff. That’s a completely organic strategy, a complete, like a search strategy.
VVE (29:01):
We, we, we, all of our traffic, 100% is organic and we have millions of visitors every month. Except for during launch. So during launches, we do do pay ads,
RV (29:11):
But y’all like Vanessa is the, the, the, the perfect example of how we just talk about it. If you just add value and you just add value. One of our philosophies at brand builders group is we say, save the best for first. We, we tell people save the best for first. Like just put it out there. Eight years later you’re still ringing and you’re still ringing the, the register.
VVE (29:35):
Yes. And, and maybe this is a good place to sort of end on, which is our same. This is what I teach. All my writers is we are aggressively helpful, relentlessly helpful. Like if I feel that something in a video is boring or not helpful, cut it. I don’t care about the fancy graphics. I have one camera in a room. It’s like a closet I’m in here right now. And that’s it. But it is not relentlessly aggressively helpful. Cut it. That is more important than any fancy graphic, any video equipment that you can get. And so that’s, I think what you have to think about is like, how can you just be aggressively helpful?
RV (30:11):
Love it. So brilliant. So the book is called cues. That’s the new book. Where would you want, where do you wanna point people to go, Vanessa, if they wanna, obviously we talked about your YouTube channel, where would you direct people?
VVE (30:23):
Yes. So it’s on Amazon. It’s available. Wherever books are sold. I read the audible book. If you like my my unique vocal power, I do some fun. There’s a whole vocal section. So I do some really fun ones in there. And also I just wanna thank worry so much, you know, you, I don’t know if your, your listeners know that you are relentlessly helpful. Like literally I have to tell you to stop helping me. You’re such a giver. You’re so kind you always give, give, give, and there’s no feeling of like, oh, I, I need it in return. It’s literally just your relentlessly helpful. And so for people who are listening, like worry is the real deal. And I’m so grateful.
RV (30:56):
Oh, well, thank you so much, buddy. I mean, it’s it’s what works. I mean you know, I was, I, I was mentored by Zig Zeigler and he has that famous quote. If you help enough other people get what they want, you get what you want. It’s like, you can go all in on it. Like you can just, just test it. Like just, it feels
VVE (31:12):
So good.
RV (31:13):
It feels so good. Like you don’t have to, you don’t have to sell or do anything. Like all you’re doing is helping people all day long and then just like, it just, it just comes back. And I love seeing that as a content marketing strategy. I need to, I may, maybe I need to do that. Maybe I’m being too stingy with my YouTube videos. Maybe that’s why my way, maybe that’s why my channel’s not growing. Like I’m not being, I’m not being helpful enough there. So anyways, Vanessa van Edwards, brilliant, sharp, intelligent, useful, helpful. We are so excited and, and to, to know you and to promote you and to be associated. So keep kicking butt girl, you we believe in you. Thanks for being here. Woo.
VVE (31:47):
Thanks you so much for having me.
Ep 291: How Personal Branding Is Changing the Sports Game with Mollie Marcoux Samaan | Recap Episode
RV (00:07):
Hey brand builder, Rory Vaden here. Thank you so much for taking the time to check out this interview as always it’s our honor to provide it to you for free and wanted to let you know the there’s no big sales pitch or anything coming at the end. However, if you are someone who is looking to build and monetize your personal brand, we would love to talk to you and get to know you a little bit and hear about some of your dreams and visions and share with you a little bit about what we’re up to to see if we might be a fit. So if you’re interested in a free strategy call with someone from Martin team, we would love to hear from you. You can do that at brand builders, group.com/pod call brand builders, group.com/pod call. We hope to talk to you soon.
AJV (00:53):
Hey, welcome to another recap episode of the influential personal brand. This is the cliff notes version of my conversation with Molly Marco, Sam, who is the L PGA commissioner. She is a collegiate athlete in herself. She was like named a sportswoman of the year while she was at Princeton. She was also named one of the sports teams of the deck for high hockey Princeton. She has done so many incredible things for the world of sports and hyper specifically for women’s sports. And I just, I love my conversation with her and I’ll keep this short and sweet. I’m gonna try to keep this. I got five minutes if humanly possible. But there are three things right here are my three big takeaways. And this will was kind of like towards the end of our conversation, but I loved this and I think it’s applicable and no matter what your role is, right?
AJV (01:50):
So many of you listening are not professional athletes. Maybe you are, but most of you probably are not. But I love what she said is that every single person is a part of a team, right? It’s like your family unit, that’s a team. You’ve got your colleagues that work. That’s a team. You’ve got community groups, you have friend groups, you’ve got nonprofit groups, you have church groups, you’ve got social groups. It’s like, you have teams in your life. And sometimes you’re the star player. And sometimes you’re a utility player. And sometimes you’re a backup player, right. But we all play a part and that’s just a such a great, great reminder. Cause I know in the journey of building your personal brand you’re not always gonna get to be the star surprise, sorry. Don’t wanna have to burst your bubble there, but you’re not always gonna be the star.
AJV (02:36):
There’s gonna be a lot of work. Building your personal brand is a business like this is a business that needs to be treated like one, which means sometimes like what you’re gonna be doing is behind the scenes. And you’re not gonna feel like it’s making a PA an impact or a difference, but it is there are, there are different roles that you’re gonna fill on every team that you’re in and every season that you’re in. And I just, I loved that analogy of like you’re, you’re on teams. Right. and, and you play different roles in each of the teams and those, those roles change at different seasons. It’s just such a good reminder for me. It’s like, I need to remember that I am not always the star player. Right. And it’s like, I gotta let other people shine. And I have to take a backseat sometimes and sometimes I get to come forward regardless.
AJV (03:19):
I’m a part of a team and my role matters. And I, I love that thought. That was so good. The second thing that I thought was really significant is this shift that the LPGA is taking on the importance of making sure the stories of the players are known. Right. and I, you know, if you list into this podcast,
AJV (04:02):
She goes, I mean, what other, what other time in life are other humans literally jumping out of their seat, screaming and yelling for the successes of another person. Right. And it’s like, I’ve got my jerseys. Like, you know, I live in Nashville, Tennessee. It’s like me and my boys, like, we’ve got like our Derek Henry jerseys. We’ve got our eight EJ brown jerseys. We’re Tennessee Titans fans. And it’s like, we are cheering for these people. Like we’re taking their numbers and their names and we’re wearing them. Right. It’s like, it’s this community aspect of being a part of something. And that happens when you know the story. It’s like, yes, they’re amazing on the field. But it’s like, the more we get to know the story, the more I’m in it, in the team and in the game itself. So how is that true to you and your company, right?
AJV (04:46):
Like what if people were screaming up and down for the success of your sales team or your executive team or your customer service team, right. It’s like, that would be incredible. Right. But it’s like, we gotta help share the stories of the people on our teams. Right. And that includes companies, our leaders, our frontline employees, the executive, whoever it is, it’s like help us fall in love with you. And we can only do that when we get to see you and know you learn from you thus trust you. So, oh man. She was just, you know, speaking my language. And then the last thing that I thought she was said that was really impactful is love what you do get at it all the time. Like if you’re in the middle of something, stay present, be focused at being really good at what you’re doing, not focused on trying to get goods, you can do something else.
AJV (05:31):
And I, I so admire what she said. It’s like, I’ve never gone out looking for another job. I just focused really on the job that I have. I care deeply. I do a really good job. I wanna, I wanna see my team succeed and I’m focused on the here and now. So I, and I even like, I was like, you know, bring it up like three or four times. So what do you see next? She’s like, Nope, I am here. And now I need that in my life. I need to be more here and now, right. Not looking one year, five year, 10 years ahead. It’s like, no, I am focused on the team that I have right now. The business that I have right now, the audience that I have right now, it’s like, I am focused on you. I care deeply. I wanna be known for caring deeply.
AJV (06:11):
I wanna go, like, I wanna go and focus on what’s right in front of me, not just like what I wanna do in the future. It’s like, no, it’s like, it’s all about the here and now. And I think that’s a really great message for all of us. It’s like the work you’re doing right now matters, however, big or small your audience is, however, big or small your company is the work you’re doing right now for the team that you employ. And for the clients that you’re serving it matters right now. Say, stay focused on the here and now y’all go listen to this episode, Molly, me Simon. So amazing commissioner of the L PGA tour. Like it’s about to blow up. I’m so excited. So happy that I get to be a part of interviewing her at the beginning stages of this part of her journey. So go check out the whole episode and come back next time at the influential personal brand.
Ep 290: How Personal Branding is Changing the Sports Game with Mollie Marcoux Samaan
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Hey brand builder, Rory Vaden here. Thank you so much for taking the time to check out this interview as always it’s our honor to provide it to you for free and wanted to let you know the there’s no big sales pitch or anything coming at the end. However, if you are someone who is looking to build and monetize your personal brand, we would love to talk to you and get to know you a little bit and hear about some of your dreams and visions and share with you a little bit about what we’re up to to see if we might be a fit. So if you’re interested in a free strategy call with someone from Martin team, we would love to hear from you. You can do that at brand builders, group.com/pod call brand builders, group.com/pod call. We hope to talk to you soon.
AJV (00:53):
Hey, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of the influential personal brand. This is AJ Vaden. I am one of your co-host here at the CEO of brand builders group, but more importantly today I get to be the interviewer of a very special guest. And I’m so excited to introduce you guys to Molly MoCo Simon. And before I formally introduce her to you guys and let her share some of her brilliance and excellence, I, I have a formal bias, but I’m gonna read just some highlights out up. And if you guys listen to this often, you know, this is not something I typically do, but when I was reading through Molly’s bio, I was like, holy Nikes. I’ve gotta read some of this. So there’s some like, really amazing stuff in here. So currently Molly is the commissioner of the L PGA.
AJV (01:44):
And we’re gonna talk a little bit about how she got there and what does this all have to do with personal branding, but I’m gonna give you just a, a tiny bit of the back story of how she got to hear, and then I’m gonna let her share that as well, but she is a Princeton graduate and not just that, but a two sport varsity athlete, which I do not think is easy. I am not that skilled in the realm of athletics, but you were also named to the collegiate women’s ice hockey team of the decade, which is, I think is amazing. You were also you were also announced sportswoman of the year while you were there. You have then like you went on to had a more decade long career of a ver variety of different positions in the collegiate world, but then you came back to Princeton as the university’s family director of, of athletics.
AJV (02:36):
You did that for another, almost a decade, and it’s like, I could go on and on, but this is like, when I was reading your bio, I was like, oh my, my gosh, like you are truly an individual who has dedicated their entire life to sports and not just sports, but the discipline and the just work ethic that it takes to be that excellent at any one thing. And it wasn’t just one thing for you. It was so many different things. And so I’m amazed, like genuinely I was reading this time. I was like, I had no idea of all these things because you’re also really humble. And you don’t talk about any of that. So I gotta wanna introduce you so formally welcome to the show.
MMS (03:19):
Well, thanks AJ that was quite an intro, like, you know, bring you on the road with me as my best secretary. That was really nice. But again, the, the, the decade was the eighties, so it was a little different decade than today. So anyway, it was really fun and my joy and pleasure and life to be able to participate in two sports at Princeton and to play sports my whole life and have that opportunity. And yes, my, my whole life has been largely about sports. So you know, really grateful your shirt says grateful, which we just were talking about. And I try to be grateful every day in, in everything that I get to do.
AJV (03:51):
Oh my gosh. I just, I think that your accomplishments are incredible and now you’re leading an entire generation of female athlete in the, you know, field of golf. And I just, I find this too fascinating. And so I’m, I want everyone to know, it’s like, you heard a little bit about your background, but why the commissioner, why the LPGA tour?
MMS (04:11):
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, listen, I’ve had the pleasure, as I said, I’ve always had great jobs. I think when I, I always tell the story when I was graduating from college, my friends and I also sat around and we said, well, what, what would we like to be doing in five years? What would we like to be doing in 10 years, 15 years. And at every step of the way, I just put, you know, a really cool job in sports, a really cool job in sports, you know, at every, at every juncture, I, I knew that’s what I wanted to do. And I’ve had the great pleasure to have really cool jobs in sports, kind of in all parts of sports I worked in, right when I graduated, I did some stuff at a, at a boarding school and coached and worked in athletic administration.
MMS (04:44):
And then I worked for Chelsea Pierce, which is a big sports and entertainment complex in Manhattan and in Connecticut for almost 19 years. So really saw the amateur side of things and running big businesses and kind of working with athletes young and old at every level. And then having this really unique opportunity to go to prince. And obviously my Alma mater that I love and you know, really committed to the mission of education through athletics. That really is the cornerstone of the program there in the Ivy league, but also just at Princeton more broadly. And I was really, you know, going about my business really en enjoying the job despite the fact that it was COVID and those presented some, you know, that presented some really interesting challenges, but I got a full own call from someone saying, Hey, this is a, this is an opportunity that’s out there to be the L PGA commissioner.
MMS (05:27):
And you know, again, I, I love my job at Princeton, but this was a once in a lifetime opportunity to really in my mind impact sports, but really in particular impact women’s sports. I, I love golf. I’ve played golf my whole life and have Studi golf and think it’s a really unique sport, but mostly, you know, coming to at this at the way of like, this is a moment in time for women and women in sports that I think can really change not only sports, but change kind of the world and how people look at women and the talents that they have and the opportunities that exist in, in this world. So I, I you know, jumped at this chance and obviously convinced my family to make a pretty big move, to come down from New Jersey to Florida, which is a, you know, a big move for, for kids particularly, and my husband. So again, that, that grateful theme will, will run through everything I said and have this to live, to live my dreams, but hopefully more importantly to impact you know, the world of sports and impact specifically our, our women who play golf and also just young girls who play golf around the world.
AJV (06:28):
Oh, I love that. I love what you’re doing too. And for, for those of you listening, it’s Molly and I had the opportunity to meet because she, you heard me on another podcast, another Molly, a different Molly Molly Fletcher on the game changers podcast. And we got to connect and we’ve had a few pop conversations. And one of the things that is one of my passions, one of my goals for this year is to really break in to the world of professional sports when it comes to personal branding. Because I know rather during your tenure, as a professional athlete or post the impact of your personal brand, how many people know about you, like while you’re actually in the endeavor of your profession, it’s like, that has a lot to do with your income, right? Those are your brand deals, sponsorships negotiating pay raises because you bring the crowd with you, but then equally as important, if not more after, as you venture into, you know, your next endeavors post athletics.
AJV (07:30):
And so I’m curious with you this, this idea, this concept of personal branding, and I know, and everyone else knows, and this is no secret. It’s like female athletes make less than their ma than their counterpart male athletes. Like that’s no secret. We’re not like a whistleblowers here. That’s, that’s just, that’s a known fact. Right. So I’m curious, like, when you think about the world of sports and you think about women role in that, how much does a player’s personal brand matter when it comes to them being successful in terms of income and success and all of that?
MMS (08:11):
Yeah, I mean, I think it’s, it’s absolutely critical. And I I’ve said this often, you know, when I was evaluating whether to jump into this position, I, I asked my kids, you know, to name five women on the LPGA and they could name a few and they, they weren’t, my kids aren’t necessarily, you know, serious golfers they’re they’re athletes and they’re engaged in the world of sports and they could only name a couple. And so that’s where I, I, I felt like, okay, I, I can really have an opportunity hopefully, to come and, and help these women elevate their, their own brands and elevate the brand, the L PGA brand more broadly, because at the end of the day in professional sports, that’s really what it’s all about in terms of getting eyeballs viewership getting people to engage with us. But I also think it’s about inspiring the next generation.
MMS (08:58):
Our women are so good at this game, you know, to be the best a hundred players or 150 players in the world. I mean, that’s pretty darn remarkable. How many times do you find someone who is the best? You know, we have people who are obviously the best, but also even the top hundred or 150. And I think world needs to know about them more because that will help obviously the LPGA in terms of our partnerships and our commercialization, but it’ll also help them. These are individual athletes who make their money in a number of different ways. They obviously make money by competing and by winning the prize money on the tour, but they also are the personal brands and the represe, there’s the ambassadors for a number of companies and a, a good portion of their income can come from that association from, from the brand.
MMS (09:42):
And, you know, we are getting a lot of traction in that area. People are seeing that these are amazing role models, and they can hit their, their corporate values or through their corporate identity to these remarkable women who are not only be very successful on their own, but inspiring that next generation of young girls to say, I can do this. You know, I can, I can compete at the highest level. I can be a very good person while I do it, and I can represent others brands along the way. So I think it’s really critical to their overall direct income, but it’s also really critical to the L PGA’s success more broadly, and our ability to have a positive impact on the world. So we’re really doubling down on that right now, trying to figure out ways to help them elevate their brands to help us elevate our own brand, which is really important.
MMS (10:28):
I think the L PGA doesn’t get as much credit as it should. We’ve been around 71 years. We’ve had amazing women for the, for longer than any other really profe women’s professional sport. We’ve done it kind of on our own. People have made a, a living, a good living and have, like I said, inspired the world through their play as a young girl, the only real role models that you had to look up to in professional athletics were golfers or tennis players for the most part is I was growing up. And so, and I played golf. So I was very engaged with the women that were doing very well. And the tour now I’ve gotten to meet them, you know, the same women who are my inspiration as a young kid to say, Hey, anything’s possible. You know, there, there, there are opportunities in sports, whether you’re actually competing or you’re working in sports, but sports is a place for women. So I think it is a hundred percent you know, sort of top of mind, critical for us on the go forward strategy for the LPJ and for our players to it, continue to get the world, to see, you know, these remarkable women do what they do.
AJV (11:22):
Ah, I love that, you know, and you, it’s funny as how you’re talking is, you know, I think about the study that our company did brand builders group went out and fielded a national research study on the trends and impacts of personal branding just about a year ago. And it’s the first national study about branding and a huge part that we thought were so was so interesting. And something you just said made me think about this is that 88% of millennials, age 26 to 44, but then 82% of the entire general population, no matter what your age is, agree that a company is more influential when the founder or executives have a public facing personal brand. And what you just said, like really resonated to something that we talk a lot about. It’s like, we are no longer really in the era of the company is no longer the entity that is known. It’s the people within the company that make the company known. And so when you said it’s like, Hey, like the more well known our players become the more well known our organization becomes. Oh yeah. I mean, that goes across all sports, all industries, all organizations, no matter what. And so I’m curious in your opinion, what do you think in this specific conversation the players need to be doing to help themselves become more well known, thus making the entire organization more well known? Like what would you like to see?
MMS (12:49):
Well, I, I would, you know, I think that letting people get to know them as much as possible, and some of that is our responsibility you know, out outside of their own social media and outside the things that they can do to continue to place themselves into situations where, you know, they’re letting the world see all the good that they’re doing, not only on the golf course, but the way that they train the way that they eat, the way that they sleep, the way that they engage in sort of high performance, I think is very interesting to the world. Also the way that they give back. I mean, our, our women are significant contributors to, to charity, to young girls, you know as I said before, allowing young girls to have inspiration and to be role models, I think getting that word out and being very creative and, and aggressive with their own social media, but also from our perspective, one of the things that we’re, we’re trying to do more is, you know, give, give audiences more of an opportunity to know the, the, the players individually, not just their talent, I mean their talent.
MMS (13:43):
I think people still need to understand how significant it is, but I also wanna be able to do things in broadcast. You know, we’re trying to stream holes, you know, on, on various streaming platforms where we can interview the app plates in the middle of their round. It’s also a really unique sport where they can be playing and we can actually have an announcer or broadcaster come up and, and just ask them what they’re thinking as they’re about to hit their next shot within a very large competition where they’re competing for a great deal of money was really cool. And I think that’s where the association starts to come in, because as you said, people think of P people, they, they, you know, they follow the LPGA and we need to do continue to do a better job and continue to grow our abilities in that area, which our team is really good and they’re really focused on it, but mostly we connect with people.
MMS (14:26):
We cheer, cheer on people. It’s you know, you want, you wanna be watching someone, you know, you wanna be watching someone whose story, you know, what, how hard it was to get to that point. And every athlete on, on our tour has a different story. And they’re quite remarkable. They’re not what you think they are. And I think they provide inspiration. They’re very interesting. They’re very engaging. And I think that they have this platform to help people be better in their own lives. And also if you think about golf, I mean, wow, golf is just a hard sport. When you, I don’t know how much you play J but, but when you stand up on that tee, you never know what’s gonna happen. And at the end of your round, imagine being in your professional life, we all were talking about being stressed and other things that are challenging.
MMS (15:05):
But if in your professional life, every day at the end of your Workday, you gotta score
AJV (15:41):
Oh my gosh. It’s so true. And it’s it’s so true to, you know, just anyone who’s in the public eye, rather you’re putting yourself there, or you just you’re there. Right. I think a lot of this has to do is so much of what we talk about in our community at brand builders group. And I believe a huge resistance to a lot of our community of like really putting themselves out there is the fear of people not liking them or disagree with them. And it’s like, the truth is it’s like, the more true you are to yourself, you’re gonna have more lovers and more haters. That’s just the part of being, and that’s hard, that’s like a hard choice. And then to be in a profession where that just is a part of the job, that’s so intense. And so I’m curious to know genuinely it’s like, what would you say that most of your players, or even like you yourself, it’s like, do you think that there’s a resistance to build personal of brands?
MMS (16:34):
Yeah, I think there, I mean, I, I don’t know that there’s a resistance to build personal brands because I think we all want to do that. I mean, I know I need to be a lot better about that and because I agree with you and you and I have been talking about that. Like, I think the people really do believe that the CEO or the leader of the company is the representative of that total company. And so I need to do a better job myself on that, but I think our players, you know, it’s very hard to put yourself out there and, and particularly in the world of professional sports where everyone just feels like they have the right to, to tell you what they think of your play, of what you look like out there of what, you know, so it’s very, very hard, but, but I, so I think that there is sometimes some resistance, but I, I think the more we educate on how to do it positively and just continue to focus on your own values and continue to focus on the things that you believe in, and then let the chips kind of fall where they may, you know, and, and obviously we need to support them in that every step of the way as well.
MMS (17:31):
So it’s, you know, it’s hard, but it, it does does matter. And I think it will just continue to open up doors for them, every P every sponsor or partner that comes up to me tells me how amazing our athletes are, you know, and that’s almost like this, this secret that we’re keeping. And we need to just tell the world a little bit more aggressively, listen, we, our, our players are quite well known in many circles and some of them more than others, but I just think there’s this huge opportunity for them, sorry to inspire. And we really just are, like I said, we’re really focused on that. So I think there is a resistance, but we’re trying to give people it’s comfortable in environment as possible to do that.
AJV (18:11):
Yeah. You know, there’s two things I wanna, I
AJV (18:55):
Right. And that, that is the business of sports. And then the other thing I was gonna say, it’s like, you know, this same resistance, or not even resistance reluctance, or sometimes it’s confusion. It’s like, I think this is what the entire world is experiencing right now with this enormous shift of going from like this traditional marketing and advertising world to this new kind of world order of the just undeniable importance of your reputation, your audience engagement people knowing about you. Like, that’s just becoming increasing more important. Like we just strongly believe it’s like personal branding is a trend. It’s not a fad which means it’s not going away. Right. It it’s a growing amplified part of how we do business. And there is not a ton of talk around this and a lot of businesses and organizations, but you are making this a topic like is something that you guys are focused on and intent of like, how do we get our players to be more well known?
AJV (19:57):
Cuz we know if we do that, it’s gonna benefit the organization. And there’s, there’s still a lot of debate on, should we shouldn’t we, and you’re kind of taking the stance of, no, this is what we’re gonna do. And that’s clearly a shift of what has been done within the L P G a. And so I’m curious, like as your like seat as commissioner and in kinda like during your reign here, right. Why, why this, like, what is it about this that you think is just so important as we kinda like move into this next era of marketing?
MMS (20:28):
Well, a co a couple things. One, I, I do think it’s also though in that hesitancy or the reluctance, I think it is our responsibility as the LPGA to continue to help with kind of helping them through the difficult parts of it too, you know, kind of providing the right perspective on it. So it doesn’t, you know, so really they can focus on their own wellbeing and their own mental health and all of that too. And making sure that there’s good perspective. I always think that mindset and perspective and approach is really the most important thing in anything you do in life is sort of how you enter, how you enter that challenge and how, you know, what you’re getting into when you into it and just really staying true to your own values and knowing, being confident with who you are and knowing what the upside is, but also knowing where the downside can be and being prepared for that.
MMS (21:15):
So I think those are some of the things that we’re trying to, to work on. But, but again, getting back to your question, I mean, it’s it, like I said, it’s just so critical that that, that they as individual athletes really entrepreneurs. I mean, if you really think about it, the women on our tour, they don’t play for a team. They play for themselves. Yeah. And so their own personal brand is even that much more important because they’re actually selling their brand, just like the LPJ is selling our brand to be able to make all of this work. You know, we, we don’t exist without the, the commercialization of, of the sport. I mean, we, we are in the business to allow women to live their dreams through golf you know, tangentially, but, but, or not even tangentially just as, as an integrated part of what we do, we are also part of our mission is to give this opportunity to young girls, to women, whatever skill level, all around the world, because we think it’s so by valuable.
MMS (22:08):
So in order, like you said, in order for us to do that, people have to know the opportunities exist. They have to know the the benefits of participating in golf and participating in sport for young girls and for women, you know, the community building the networking. So in order for us to be successful in that way, people have to know our stories and have to, to, to get to know our athletes and it for our athletes to be able to truly maximize this amazing gift that they have they’re individual entrepreneurs and they need to commercialize it. You know, there are different ways they can do it. So it’s really built into their entire ability to reach our mission and their mission mission, which is to live their dreams through the game of golf and inspire the world to have a positive impact. So it’s all tied in together. I mean, I think it really is all part and parcel of what we do as an organization is we need more of the world to, to know about us. So we’re really focused on that.
AJV (23:02):
Yeah. And it’s like kind of the easy, easiest maybe not, I must say simplest, not easiest, but the simplest thing to do, it’s like as your players become more well known, you become more well known. It’s like this win-win situation. I love what you said too. It’s like really our players are entrepreneurs. Like that is such a great way at looking at this particular sport and there’s other sports like that, but it’s, you know, you said something earlier that just made me think this it’s like the more that we get to know the stories of the players and here’s what I have found to be true. The more that I get to know the stories of the athletes, of the teams that I follow, I don’t just love the athlete more. I love the entire sport more. Yeah. You know, and I think I shared this with you.
AJV (23:47):
It’s like, I recently watched the movie king Richard about Venus and Serena Williams father and about them. And the most fascinating thing happened through like the next few weeks after watching this movie, it’s like one I’m just dumbfounded at their superiority and the skillset and just like who they are as humans and individuals. And there’s the fact that they’re in the same family. Like, so I have become like so endeared to both of them and their excellence, but I’ll tell you what else happened is I’ve become way more interested in the entire sport of tennis. Oh yeah. Right. It’s not, and here’s what I’d say. It’s like the stories of athlete don’t make, you just love them more. They make you love the entire sport more. And that’s something that I think is really amazing. It’s like my husband is a really great golfer and really loves golf.
AJV (24:35):
And he’s always pressuring me to go golfing. And, you know, it’s like, I haven’t necessarily ever had a great desire and passion to it until I met you. Right. And it’s like, now that I talk, I talk to you and I’m getting to know it. It’s like, I’m naturally more inclined to wanna learn about this sport because I’m fascinated by you. Like, I wanna get to know your players because it’s like, I wanna support people that I believe in the exact same thing happens with companies. Right. When I fall in love with a founder of a company it’s like, and I wanna support what this person is doing because I’m fascinated and interested by their story. And I wanna be a part of it. And I think it, this exact same thing happens when we fall in love with stories. We fall in love with the people, but also what they’re a part of. And that includes the entire sport.
MMS (25:18):
Absolutely. The sport, the LPGA women’s sports. I think, I think by watching king Richard, which I, I loved as well. And you know, you, you really get, you appreciate the hard work, the sacrifices, the challenges that have gone into getting them to where they got, it’s pretty darn remarkable and, and how hard it is to get there and how, how talented they really are. So, and again, if you think about sports, why, why do people love their hometown team? Why do people love their a college team? It’s because it builds community and you’re a part of something bigger than yourself. And there’s a personal connection to that team. You don’t generally just pick a team and say, oh, I, I like their colors. I mean, sometimes that’s how you originally sort of align yourself with the team, but then it’s about the people.
MMS (26:03):
I, I like watching sports when I have some understanding of who the people are, whether it’s a quarterback on a football team or whether, and whether it’s, you know, the star player. And that was why, you know, being at Princeton was, was so fun. I always loved Princeton athletics. I loved following the teams when I was not the ad, just as an alum, because that was my association of my affiliation. But then when you get to know the athletes and, you know, their stories, you become sort of obsessed by their results and by their success because you know, how much went into it. And that’s the same with the LPGA. I’ve always been a fan. I’ve always loved golf. I’ve always been a student of the game and the history of the, the LPGA, but now knowing these athletes and seeing who they are as people, you know, you wake up wondering how they, sometimes they, they were playing in Asia last week.
MMS (26:47):
And I was there. I was in Singapore for the first week. And then I had to come home for some meetings. They then played in Thailand. And so the time changes are very, you know, the time differences are, are significant. They’re 14 hours, 13 or 14 hours ahead. And so, you know, I’d wake up in the morning and just first grab my phone and see how they did at now, knowing all of the women you’re really following them, you’re connected with them. And so the more other people, not just the commissioner knows who, I mean, again, we have a huge fan base and a, a many, many people know our athletes and are inspired by them and they’re doing great work out there, but I think there’s even, there are more people that could be inspired and get to know them and sort of, you know have something to cheer for where else in the world do you actually cheer for other people?
MMS (27:28):
There are not many places where you’re putting your arms up, you’re clapping, you know, and you’re personally invested in it. I mean, look at the fans at different games and they have their hands and their, their face and their they’re so invested in the success of their teams. And it’s not really just the team, it people that they’re watching. And so there’s so much more of an opportunity for that, which I’m, I’m really excited about. And I wouldn’t be so excited if I didn’t think our women were so remarkable. And I didn’t think that our product was so good. And so you know, I’ve used this word too many times here today, but so inspiring. So, and that’s really what, why I’ve stayed connected with sports so much is because I do think changes people’s lives. I think it builds leaders. I think it builds communities. I think it gives people some optimism and something to look forward to. So I think there’s so many benefits of it that I, I love having this platform to, to tell our stories,
AJV (28:18):
Oh, I love that. And I so agree with you. It’s like, I just think there’s so many benefits of sports and Jim, like, regardless of what it is, there’s just so many, but in fact to what you said, it’s like, what are the, what are the things in life? Do you like physically jump out of your chair, horse screaming and yelling for other people. Yeah. Right. And it’s like, you get so emotionally invested into the team, the community, it’s like, like how many times do you like buy all the gear of your favorite come and wear it with pride. Right.
MMS (28:47):
Like
AJV (28:48):
This doesn’t happen. Like that’s such a great point. And so we have just like eight more minutes or so. And so I have, I wanna shift gears just a little bit and I wanna talk about you and really like your role. And you said earlier, it’s like at every decade in your life that you’ve said, like, I just wanna pick like the next, most awesome, like role in sports. And so I’m gonna kind of put you on the spot, right. And looking at this next decade, like 10 years from now, like, what do you wanna be doing?
MMS (29:16):
Well, I mean, listen, I, I have a, a big, big task ahead of me here. And so I’m really not, not looking forward past this opportunity at all. I mean, I’ve just gotten here, been here, you know, six months, a little over six months. And we have a great platform. The LPJ is in a really good position, but, but they’re the, the fun of it is that there’s huge growth to be had too. So I would like to look back in 10 years and say, Hey, we, we elevated the LPGA to a place where the women are making more money, you know, getting closer hopefully, or, or getting to the point, the same amount of dollars that the men make to play the sport that more people know about them have been inspired by them. That girls golf has grown around the world, not just, you know, we’re a global tour.
MMS (29:57):
So we have women from, I think, over 50 cut countries participating on the LPGA. And we also partner with the ladies European tour and we have a qualifying tour that the EEPs tour. So we have, I think over 50 women from different countries. And so our 50 countries represented. So we have the opportunity not just to impact what’s happening in the us, but you know around the whole world. And so I hope that we wake up in, I wake up in 10 years and say, well, we really did take this to the next level. And we were able to impact the individuals that participate, but also the world more broadly. I hope the number of girls that are playing the game have, has grown. I hope the number of girls who, who really might not otherwise have that opportunity if we weren’t really intentional about it, I think you know, certain sports these days, almost all sports have become very expensive.
MMS (30:44):
Yeah. And you know, golf has traditionally been known as a very expensive sport, and this is an opportunity that can’t be just given to, to young girls or boys whose families have the resources it’s like education. I really feel like it’s our responsibility to give this remarkable game to those who might not other feel either comfortable or feel have the resources to be able to play. So I’d like to wake up and say, Hey, we really did give this opportunity to many, many more young girls and we impacted many, many more lives along the way. So you’re kind of looking at impacting lives, but you’re doing it through this, this overall platform. Which, and, and hopefully women’s sports has grown during that period and no longer do people look and go, okay, well, there’s, there’s golf. And then there’s, women’s golf. You know, it’s sort of like, there’s golf and there’s, men’s golf and there’s, women’s golf.
MMS (31:29):
And then we play together. I mean, that’s the beauty of golf also that men, men and women can play together. And you know, people who think that they can beat our women, you know, men or women who, who don’t really know, I love that scenario when you say, okay, yeah, you, why don’t you come out and play against these women and see what happens at the end? I mean, they are just as good as the men. They might not hit it quite as far off the tee, but then their game from there on, in our data and our statistics are showing that they are just as good or better in many areas. And so I’d like the, the world to know that and for us to tell those stories.
AJV (32:01):
Hmm. That’s so good. And I love that. I love, I love too that you’re just focused on the here and now, right. We’ll see where the road takes you, but you’re focused on the here and now. So if we were just to take it personal for you, it’s like, I know you wanna see these women’s stories told you wanna see the, the, you know, game of golf, you know, it shared, and hopefully it grows and you know, all these D from things. So those aside, right, I’m just super curious, like, are there any like internal things that, or messages that you hope come out of your tenure here? And this could be just not even about golf, but sports women’s sports, men’s sports, whatever, but it’s like, are there any underlying themes that you’re like, man, if you know, the world were up my fingertips and I had a magic wand and I could make sure all these things happen, is there anything that you really want your legacy to be? As you know, you think about, at some point, this position will be over however many years down the road. It is. But when people think back and they think about Molly Marman, like, what do you want them to think about?
MMS (33:09):
Well, I mean, I think as you said, I like to be in the, in the here and now. I mean, I’ve never had a job where I’m looking for the next job. I mean, those jobs have always, fortunately I’ve just had a lot of really lucky you know, connections and relationships and people who have put me forward for other other opportunities, but I’ve always just tried to say, like, you gotta care deeply about what you’re doing at that moment. So I hope people, you know, look back and say, you know, she really cared because she cared not because she was trying to, you know, elevate her own career, anything like that, because I actually think that’s the worst thing that you can do in, in your job. You have to be invested in, in what you do for what it is. Not, not for what it can get you.
MMS (33:48):
And I do think that’s a really important thing for people is just like, be where you are, love what you do care deeply about the product and the people, and try to make it better every day, you know, wake up thinking, how do I get this organ to be better? How do I get the people around me to be better? How do I get myself to be better? You know, how do I grow every day? So I hope people from my own perspective, I hope that’s what people, what people say. You know, there was one of my bosses at Chelsea Pierce, you know, where they were doing this in my going away party. And, you know, they were standing up and saying really nice things. And you’re always like, oh, I never knew they, they thought that, but one of my bosses, you know, that’s, that’s what he said.
MMS (34:25):
And at first I was like, wow. He just said, like, I thought, he’d say, oh, I did really well at this. Or I had these accomplishments or I was hoping, but he just said, you know, at the end of the day Molly cared, you know, she, she really cared about our organization, cared about our people. And so when I reflected back on that, I was a little younger or I was like, that’s, that’s, that’s good. Like, I was proud of that. I hope I hope that that continues. And that that’s what people can sort of say the same thing along the way, because makes life a lot more fun to care about the teams you’re on, you know, being an athlete, being associated with teams. I think everything is about your teams, whether it’s your family or your work, or your friends or your community, they’re all teams.
MMS (35:01):
And so how do you show up for that team? So that’s what I, that’s what I hope in my career is like, I, I really have no, I have no aspirations for a different job or for, you know, really just to have impact where I am and to, to, to have people who I work with say, Hey, she really does care and she’s not gonna be perfect is gonna make mistakes. And, you know, not gonna know everything by any stretch, but she care. And, and I think that’s really that’s what my hope is.
AJV (35:25):
Mm. I love that. You said two things there. I thought that was so good. Is that you’re a part of teams, no matter what you do in life, like maybe it’s your family team or your work team, or maybe you have a church team or a nonprofit team, or maybe you’re on a sports team, right? Yeah. But it’s like, you’re a part of teams, no matter you’re in sports or not. And that’s such a great way looking at all the different things that we do. It’s like, I’m a part of like six different teams. Right. Right. And I had never thought about it that where it’s like, I’m a crucial integral part of making our family team work. Right. And if I don’t, if I don’t do good, they don’t do good.
MMS (36:04):
That’s the most important team by the way, that is by far, the most important team is your, is your team. I heard someone yesterday say you know, the, the, the team that really matters the team, that’s sitting at your Thanksgiving dinner. Yeah. And, and that’s a good way of putting it, you know, that’s the team that makes the most, and it was actually from a coach who cares deeply about his specific team that he plays on or that he coaches. But I think the most important team is always the team that’s sitting at your Thanksgiving dinner. But yeah, I mean, sometimes your role on the team is not exactly the role that you would like to have. And I, I, I talk to kids about that all the time, but if you go in with like, Hey, whatever my role is, my job is to make that team better.
MMS (36:43):
Whether I’m the star player or I’m, you know, sitting at the end of the bench, everybody on that team contributes to the overall success. And if you don’t wake up thinking about that, you can actually be a negative impact to the team. Oh, that’s so great. And so you, you really, you have to, you know, and in sports, you know, the college level, we talk about that with the coaches all the time. It’s like the end of the bench is just as important as, as the starting superstar. And so make sure you as the coach or the leader play to that whole bench, but also if you’re on the end of the bench, how are you contributing to make that team better that day? And it translates to work. It translates to family it, to everything. We know that in marriages and in, you know, listen, some days you’re gonna be getting to do what you wanna do and other days your, your partner’s gonna need to do what they need to do. And it’s a constant, you know, team that we engage in, same thing with our kids. So I just love thinking of it as teams. Yeah.
AJV (37:34):
I love that. Like, I’m totally gonna shift my mindset around. It’s like, we all have different roles, but we’re a team and I’m a part of like a variety of little teams in my life. And it’s like, how am I showing up? Like, what’s my role in each of those teams. I love that. That’s so good. The other thing you said that when I like highlight for the listeners is you gotta care about what you’re doing for the sake of just doing a good job and loving what you’re doing, not because of what it’s going to get you.
MMS (37:59):
Right.
AJV (37:59):
Right. That is so significant. I feel like so many people in life intentionally are not, are doing things while subconsciously doing them going, if I do this, then I’ll get this. Yeah. Or if I do this for this person, and they’ll do this for me, it’s like, there’s this like subconscious mindset of I’ll do this, but I’ll do it to get this right. And you said, no, it’s like, do it for the sake of doing it and being a part of the team and loving what you do.
MMS (38:25):
Yeah. And for you to get better and for you to grow and for, you know, there’s those intrinsic benefits of that for sure. But it really does. I think reduce stress and you know, reduce the anxiety around what you’re doing. You wake up and say, okay, my task is to, to care and to, to make this organization better and to accomplish my goals and not worry about the rest. It’s not always easy to do. And believe me, I fall prey to all of that. Like we all do, but trying to get back to level set on mindset. And, and you know, even just with kids in school, there’s so much pressure on grades and successes on sports teams and in the play and various things. And, you know, I constantly try to say to my kids, listen, you know, you, you show up, do the very best you can and let the chips fall where they may, you know, and, and you contribute to it because you love it.
MMS (39:08):
And because it makes you happy and because it it’s fulfilling and it helps you grow, don’t worry so much about that result. That’s hard for kids. It’s hard for adults. It’s hard for all of us, but I do think it, for me, it reduces stress. You know, it’s like, listen, I can just put one foot forward, put my clothes on, get out of the house and do the very best I can do. And, and hope that things go the best that they can possibly go. And, and that’s not something I’ve always my mindset I’ve always had, you know, I think that’s you know, sort of I over time. So I try to share that with my kids and, you know, they have to go through some stuff on their own to figure that out. But I do think that’s an important mindset.
AJV (39:43):
Oh, I love that. I’m telling you what it’s like, the more time I get to spend with you, it’s like, you just have like all these little like excellent bombs, just dropping everywhere, all these like awesome little golden nuggets that just come outta your I so love what you’re doing. I know exactly why you were recruited for this position. I am so excited to see what you do for the, the whole game of golf. But specifically for these women players, I’m so excited to just see this change. And it’s like, regardless of how many of, how many other people it’s gonna impact, like I can my hand and say, it’s like from the day that we had our first conversation, I have had a new appreciation and interest for the game. And I’m just one. So it’s like, there’s gonna be a serious domino effect with all the things that you’re doing. And so people wanna learn more about you and stay in touch with the LPGA tour. Like where should they go? Where do you want people to find you?
MMS (40:38):
Well, again, I think I need to do a better job of letting people find me, but I am on Twitter. I think it’s M Mar U 91. Something like that, but I should probably know that more specifically, but, but you can always find me too on the LPGA site. And you know, we’re constantly doing things through our social media channels and through, through, but, but I think, you know, in me getting to know you that, that, and I reached out to you because I heard you, as I said on Molly Fletcher’s podcast and just was really, I loved your message. And I, I know that’s something, an area of growth for me to be able to put myself out there more and to be able to you know, be, be willing to, to do that. But mostly for me at this point, it’s a little bit about time, but it has to be a, a pro of time, you know, and I always wanna, if I’m gonna do something, I wanna do it really well. And sometimes it’s hard to find time to do this really well with all the other things that you’re trying to do and other ways that you’re trying to serve other people. But I do think that it is important. You know, for the LP G I, I wouldn’t do it so much if it was just to elevate my own personal brand, but if it’s gonna help elevate the tour and help elevate what we do, then I, I need to continue to get better at that.
AJV (41:43):
Well, I’ll do all the research. I’ll make sure all the right handles are in the notes.
MMS (41:47):
AJV (41:55):
Baby steps, baby steps, baby
MMS (41:56):
Baby
AJV (41:57):
Steps. But I’ll put all that in there. I’ll grab all the links for the LPGA. I’ll put all those in there and, and y’all like, go follow these players, go follow the LPGA. Like also follow Molly. I’m gonna, I’m gonna enforce her. I’m gonna make her share all of her brilliance more typically online. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you so much. I know how busy you are. Thank you so much for being on the show.
MMS (42:21):
Yes, my pleasure. Thanks for doing this and thanks for helping elevate our, our women. And like you said, go to the LPGA, a social media handles and, and also watch our broadcast we’re on golf channel. There’s times when we’re on we’re on network television, we’re, we’ve got some great ideas brew around some other ways that you can engage. We’ve done an all access video of one of our, or, you know, sort of docu-series. So again, getting to know our players through that docu-series and through sort of their personal lives is really remarkable. I think you’ll be inspired. So thanks for everything. And yeah, I look forward to continuing our conversation.
AJV (42:52):
X is awesome. Y’all thanks so much for listening. Stay tuned for another episode of the influential personal brand. We’ll see you next time.
Ep 289: Personal Brand Strategies for Network Marketing and Direct Sales with Ray Higdon | Recap Episode
RV (00:07):
Hey brand builder, Rory Vaden here. Thank you so much for taking the time to check out this interview as always, it’s our honor to provide it to you for free and wanted to let you know there’s no big sales pitch or anything coming at the end. However, if you are someone who is looking to build and monetize your personal brand, we would love to talk to you and get to know you a little bit and hear about some of your dreams and visions and share with you a little bit about what we’re up to to see if we might be a fit. So if you’re interested in a free strategy call with someone from our team, we would love to hear from you. You can do that at brand builders, group.com/pod call brand builders, group.com/pod call. We hope to talk to you soon.
RV (00:54):
This episode brought together three of my favorite things, sales, personal branding, network marketing, and and four, I would say leadership, all kind of coming together in this interview that I did with Ray Higdon and welcome to this special recap edition. I love this. I, I love this conversation. I’ve been, I, I love having this conversation specifically about how does personal branding apply to direct sales people, you know, all types of direct sales and then also network marketing specifically, which is really what rays expertise and, and, and special niche is. And so I just, I just thought this was fascinating. And if you know anything about the world of network marketing there’s just a really interesting kind of almost like dynamic happening right now, where companies are trying to really figure out how much flexibility and freedom should people have with their personal brand versus, you know, leveraging the company’s brand.
RV (02:01):
And I think a lot of companies are struggling with that, but it, it it’s really prevalent in direct sales, cuz they’re like, you know, right on the front lines out there selling face to face and, and doing business with friends. So fascinating conversation. I, if and we talked about some of those things with Ray, but the three highlights I wanna share for you apply outside of network marketing. And, and beyond direct sales, I think these are three ubiquitous concepts and takeaways that are really important for all of us and for you, no matter what type of business that you are in. And they they’re super duper powerful and they were great reminders for me. And as I was going back and reviewing the show, I was like, yeah, this there’s some really, really big moments in here. So the first one is when, when Ray said this, he, this is such an important phrase.
RV (02:55):
He said, I want to be duplicatable. I want to be duplicatable. That is a really important concept. And it, it makes sense like that is one of the best things. That’s one of the best lessons you can learn from network marketing, right? Is they just, they teach you how, how, how to sell something. And then if you can teach someone else how to sell something, you just duplicate that process over and over, it’ll change your entire life. But even with your personal brand everything you need to sort of think in terms of being duplicatable, repeatable processes and, and how do you scale things. So whether it’s just scaling your own content marketing strategy, right? Like we call it the content diamond. For those of you that are brand builders members. You know, we teach this, this system of what happens every single week, this, this giant checklist that you have to run, that’s being duplicatable, right?
RV (03:52):
It’s, it’s being able to have many people step in it’s interchangeable parts of your system. We also talk about an eight figure entrepreneur, which is one of our phase, one of our phase four programs that, you know, the same thing about like redundancy and scale. And we, one of the flagship points from, from scale your sales, or excuse me from eight figure entrepreneur, is that we talk about how custom fails, right? Standard scales, custom fails standard scales, custom fails standard scales. Anything that you can do repeatedly over and over and over again. And in this episode, when Ray was talking about, you know, why is McDonald’s the most like successful franchise it’s because it’s designed to be run by the person with the lowest level of skill, right? It’s created for the least common denominator. It’s it is, it is the most spelled out.
RV (04:55):
It is the most explicit. It’s the most specific it’s like, if you follow this playbook and this process, it will duplicate. And that is how things scale. Think, think about manufacturing lines. We, we talk about this, of going a manufacturing line works because it’s cranking out the same thing over and over again. That is how you scale. So you want to think in, in, in terms of being duplicatable, even if you’re gonna choose not to be duplicatable, right? Like you might say, no, no, no, I don’t wanna be the, I don’t wanna be the Honda accord. I want to be the rolls Royce. And I want every single thing to be custom and handcrafted, even if you’re gonna make that choice, that’s something you should do deliberately. And, and intentionally by way of considering to go, what’s the, the alternative of like, how do I scale?
RV (05:47):
But if you wanna be one of those two things, right, you don’t want to get stuck in the middle, which is where a lot of people do. And, and honestly, being duplicatable is gonna be really important, even Rolls-Royce as, you know, great processes and streamlines and, you know, checklists like you can’t build a great brand without being duplicatable. You have to be able to do things systematically, repeatedly on autopilot, over and over and over. And it, it reminds me almost of my in my Ted talk. And so my, how to multiply your time, Ted talk, my second book procrastinating on purpose. One of the, one of the flagship sayings in there is we say automation is to your time. Exactly what compounding interest is to your money. Automation is to your time, what compounding interest is to your money. That’s being duplicatable.
RV (06:36):
It is investing in creating a system or a process that can be stamped out on, on repeat. You should be thinking that way, always as an entrepreneur, like that’s how you free yourself up. As you, you replace yourself with a process. You, you, you, you know, people become interchangeable to some extent the, the, the better your processes are. The second takeaway for me in parallel, I wanted to highlight for you was when Ray said, look, if I had big goals, I would have a prospecting number. And then I would have a marketing metric of something that I focused on. And I love this. You know what, like for example, he said, I’m gonna do one reel every day or three reels a day, I think is what he said. He’s like, if I had big goals, I would be doing three reels a day.
RV (07:28):
And there’s a couple things I, I love about this. The, the high level concept here though, is focusing on what you can control, reminding yourself that your job is to do the things you can do. And you have to focus on doing the things you can do, stop worrying about the things you can do and start focusing on the things that you can do. You have to focus on the controllables, you do the things that are a hundred percent in your power. And so I always, you know, I believe in that concept a lot, we, we write about it in, in take the stairs. And in my first book, we say, put your self-esteem in your work habits, not in your results, put your self esteem in your work habits, not in your results. You let the results shake out. You let the results be a byproduct of the work.
RV (08:19):
So I’m a huge believer in that concept. It’s always great to be reminded of it. The thing that I loved about this and, and the, the little kind of nuance flip that switched for me was that applies to marketing too. Like, it definitely applies to sales. It’s a survival mechanism in sales. We, we would say, you know, don’t don’t focus on how many people say yes, like just focus on how many people you’re gonna talk to. Like your goal is to work a certain number of hours and talk to a certain number of people or make a certain number of dials. One of my old friends, Andrea Wal wrote, she wrote this book on called go for no. And that was sort of, the mentality was like, you know, just worry about like, instead of going, Ooh, I hope I get one yesterday, aim for 20 no’s.
RV (09:06):
And by aiming for 20 no’s, you’ll end up with more yeses than if you were just focused on the yeses. Right? So it’s that kind of idea, which I love it. And, and, and you hear it for that applies very much for sales. The part that was really cool here is the same applies for marketing. The same applies for marketing for personal branding specifically for social media, right? Is if all you’re focused on is how many views did I get? How many followers did I get? How many comments did I get? How many likes did I get? How many shares did I get? If, if that’s all you’re thinking about, none of that is in your control, right? Like none of that is in your control. You can influence those things by the quality of the content that you put out. But the better thing to focus on is, is the quantity, right?
RV (09:52):
Quantity leads to quality. Quantity typically is where things are controllable. So when Ray was saying, I would focus on making three reels a day, that’s a great metric to focus on. That’s a great way to think about it is to go H what is the volume of output you are going to do every day? Not, and, and let the results shake out, knowing that if you put in the work, if you pay the price, if you, if you constantly make good choices, if you continue to, to, to do the, like, have great work ethic and great character and integrity, and you do the right things over and over and over and over again, consistently over the course of time, it’s going to shake out it’s, it’s the compound effect that book by Darren Hardy and which is, you know, that good choices compound. And over time, it all plays out.
RV (10:41):
Like you have to remind yourself of that, even with your marketing is just like, I’m just focusing on, you know, like I’m gonna do a hundred podcasts, or like, I’m gonna do three reels a day, or I’m just gonna write every single week or whatever it is, focus on the activity, not the results. So what is that for you right in your business, in your life, like right now, where are you focused on the results? Where are you allowing your self-esteem to be tied to a result? And you need to break that you need to chop that you need to separate, that you need to sever that relationship, and you need to instead connect your self-esteem to activity, to controllables, to your work ethic, to to like the volume of what you’re doing and allow, and, and then just allowing the results to shake out, knowing that they will be there.
RV (11:34):
They will be there sooner or later, but it’s almost, it’s never, when we want it, it’s always slower than we than we want, but that’s really, really a big deal. And then finally, my, my third takeaway, this is actually more of something that, you know, Ray said that reminded me of a really important concept, which I don’t know that we’ve hit it hard enough on, on, on this podcast, right? And on this show, and even with our, our members with our brand builders members, like, but this is really important to understand. Marketing is long term sales is short term. Generally speaking, marketing is long term sales is short term. Marketing is good. Sales is good, but marketing is, you know, typically it’s like, you’re reaching the masses and you’re building trust with the masses. You’re building an audience that takes time. The good news, right?
RV (12:33):
The downside of marketing is that it takes time. It, it, it takes time to build the systems, create the content, you know, put it out there, grow a following, stay in touch, like earn trust with people. That’s the, that’s the bad news. The good news though, is that it’s extremely scalable. Once you hit the tipping point where you’ve been doing this, now people just start flooding to you and it just gets better and better and better, but it’s hardest early on. And it’s slowest early on like marketing. Isn’t the fastest way to results. Sales is marketing is long term sales is short. Term sales happens right away, right? Sales is human to human conversation. I can pick up the phone. I can talk to somebody today. I can make a sale, right? I have to just convince one person, you know, Mani, mano, or wo mano to wo mano
RV (13:25):
And you’re just going to talk directly to somebody and listen and ask questions, and you can make a sale. That’s the beauty of sales, the, the downfall, you know, or the hard, you know, that’s the good news of sales. The bad news of sales is that while sales is fast, it’s not super scalable. I, I mean, it, it’s, it’s quite scalable to a point, but you know, you, if you always have to do the selling, that’s gonna make it harder to scale, cuz it’s pulling your time. Now, the way you get around that is, is you go through what we teach in phase four, which is scale your sales, which is how to recruit and hire and train and manage and motivate a sales team. So sales is quite scalable has been for decades, but like the, as a solopreneur, it doesn’t, it doesn’t scale super well, cuz it’s taking your time and your time is pulled from all of these other, these other things.
RV (14:15):
The other part is that a lot of people are uncomfortable selling. They don’t know how to prospect. They don’t know how to ask for referrals. They’re not comfortable asking for the sale. They don’t know how to do it. They don’t know what to say when, when people, you know, give you objections. And by the way, if that’s you who you need to request a call with brand builders group and you need to go through our pressure free persuasion course, that is where we teach all that stuff. The tactics of how to ask for referrals exactly. You know, step by step what to say when they give you, when you run, when you get an objection, when you get you know, when you’re unsure of what to do or how to respond like that is, that is sales, but, but sales is fast.
RV (14:58):
Marketing is slow. Marketing is long term sales is short term. But then, you know, long term marketing catches up and it becomes this super powerful thing and, and marketing can also shorten the sales cycle. Because if somebody comes in to you already, you know with a, with like persuaded to use Robert child Dini’s persuasion kind of idea, like if they come to you already sort of pre-sold, that’s gonna accelerate things. And so part of the magic of brand builders group, like what we do internally is, is we do both, right. We do marketing and sales. Like we use marketing to sort of like warm up the leads and bring them in. And then we use sales and then we work through referrals. And so that’s why we’ve been able to build very successful businesses, very fast and, and businesses that are, are, are much larger than most people with millions of followers frankly because we understand how to do both.
RV (16:00):
And so they both work. They’re both good, but they both serve different purposes and you gotta sort of work work, you know, realize which one is your strength, which one is your weakness and how do you incorporate both of them in together? Because marketing is slow and sales is fast. Marketing is long term sales is short term, but, but marketing is scalable. And, and sales is more of a grind. So like it’s all it is. It’s all a balance. But if you’re gonna build a great business and a great personal brand, you want to be friends with both. Like you want to be really good at both marketing and sales and the better you are at those two things, the easier everything else becomes. So maybe you need to request a call at free brandand call.com/podcast request a free call with our team.
RV (16:51):
If you want to, you know, work with us, we do the first call for free. We’ll help you create a customized marketing. And you know, we’ll show you our journey for creating a marketing plan and a sales plan for your business. But that is those are the big take takeaways from today. Be duplicatable, put your self esteem in your work habits, not your results. And, you know, remember that marketing is long term and sales is short term, learn how to do both and you will have a great business and a great brand. Hey, leave us a review. If you wouldn’t mind at iTunes or wherever you listen to the show and share this episode with anyone who you think it might be helpful for. We’re so glad you’re here. We’ll catch you next time on the influential personal brand podcast.
Ep 288: Personal Brand Strategies for Network Marketing and Direct Sales with Ray Higdon
RV (00:00):
So a few months back, I made some friends, Ray and Jessica Higden, who I have really grown to love. I mean, if you know anything about my story, you know, I was raised by a single mom who sold Mary Kay. I was in direct sales when I was in college. I went door to door for five years and, you know, just for really believe in direct sales and the power of direct sales and have been so warmly welcomed by network marketing companies and had the privilege of speaking at a lot of their events. And now at brand builders group, we see a, a growing number of you who are somehow involved with network marketing at, as either a side hustle or a portion of your business, or you’re, you know, maybe you’re a, you’re a fitness influencer, and you’re just recommending, you know, shakes or workout programs or whatever.
RV (00:51):
And so it made sense that we had to get Ray to come on the show. He is one of the world’s leading experts. I would say on network marketing and, and driving business for that. So he has a community called rank makers. He has about a half a million people, 500, almost 500,000 followers on social media. I met him and Jessica. They had a book that came out last year and the, the book came out from hay house. It’s called time, money, freedom. And the book is, and a bestseller and these guys have helped over 300,000 people generate more business, right. They grow their recruits, grow their business. And so anyways, we’re gonna talk about using your personal brand specifically to grow a network marketing direct sales business. So Ray, welcome to the show.
RH (01:45):
Yeah. Hey, thanks for having me man. Excited to be out here.
RV (01:48):
Did I say all that accurately? I mean,
RH (01:51):
Did I I’ll clear, I’ll clarify the last point. So
RV (01:53):
Clarify
RH (01:54):
In the last four years, we’ve helped network marketers bring in over 300,000 new customers, 71,000 new reps and achieve 14,000 rank advances. We actually track production of our, of our group. And so that that’s, that’s just the everything else was perfect, man.
RV (02:11):
Got it. So it’s that’s so it’s, it’s, it’s not 300,000 people you’ve helped your clients generate 300,000 customers recruit 71,000 team members. And then and then how many know the, how much show the rank advance
RH (02:27):
14,000 over 14,000 rank advances. And we have you know, a little bit over 11,000 people in our group. So, you know, you can kind of look at that and in those numbers, but you know, we’re very proud of our rank makers. We give them a action step every single day and they show it big.
RV (02:45):
Yeah. So, you know, there’s kind of two parts of this because on the one hand I’m really curious. And how do you think personal branding drives a network marketing, you know, direct sales business, but also, you know, most of the people we have on this show, it’s, they’re telling us the story of how they built their personal brand. And so you’ve done that as well. So like in the means of helping all of these people use their personal brand to grow their business, you guys have built a pretty monster empire here in a very, you know, a niche vertical, which, you know, regardless if somebody’s in direct sales or not almost everybody listening, I mean, this is gonna be our advice to them is, is to find their uniqueness and really dominate a vertical. And like, you guys have done that as, as, as good as anybody. Hmm.
RH (03:39):
Thank, thank you. Yeah. You know, before we were, you know, coaching and training you know, we were the number one incomers of a network marketing company. So I know, I know what it’s like to be in the field. I know what it’s like to, you know, to grind it out. I also know what it’s like to fail, cuz I, I failed in my first quite a few attempts at network marketing, cuz there were, there were a few of things I just didn’t get about network marketing cuz it is, especially when it comes to branding, it is very different than almost everything else. You know, if you’re like here’s, here’s a brand you would like. So in Cape coral we used to my wife when she was pregnant, we took her to this very specific chiropractor that was chiropractic for pregnant. Women.
RV (04:26):
Love it, like
RH (04:27):
Very specific. And that guy was booked. I mean he was booked. And I said to him, one day, I’m like, that’s a, that’s a pretty good niche. He goes, yeah know man
RV (04:44):
Right.
RH (04:44):
The reason I, I bring that up is, you know, the realtor isn’t typically teaching everyone how to also be a realtor they’re selling houses, but a network marketer kind of revolves around, you know, that world of, of what you do. You want to also be able to share that other or people can do. So I’m, I’m very hardcore when it comes to being, you know, being duplicatable, but there’s also nuances there’s nuances and, and pieces of that, that, that I don’t think a lot of people know that the distinctions of, but we’ve been able to, you know, to navigate that.
RV (05:19):
Yeah. And I, so I wanna talk about this specific, like, so you mentioned that you guys were a top income or number one income earn at, at, at one of these network marketing companies. I feel like the whole issue of personal branding is a conflict. Like it’s, it’s, it’s like a big question mark for how does a network marketing company deal with? Because I, on the one hand you go, yes, as, as one of our dealers distributors, team members, whatever you want to call ambassadors, whatever you call ’em builds this hugely successful personal brand, it, you know, helps them sell more and recruit more. On the other hand, I feel like there’s a lot of conflicts of like, well then they’re doing their own thing. They’re not really doing the company thing. And also it gets a little weird when people start selling products like their own information products that they make to their downline, right.
RV (06:19):
Because you’re in a, your downline or organization, you have a lot of influence and you’re already incentivized to help those people succeed. You make money off of their success typically. So like how do you, how do you recommend people like direct sales companies navigate that or manage that? Or like, what are some of the philosophies either that you’re employing or companies you go, yeah, I think they’re kind of doing this well, cuz I, I honestly see both sides of it. Like I see going, Hey, the company has a brand to protect, we’ve dumped a bunch of money into creating this product and this reputation back in infrastructure. And then also being like, well yeah, well, you know, if you’re growing your social media following, like that’s your asset. So yeah. You know, not to start with the, not to start with the hard questions, but let’s start with the hard, hard ones.
RH (07:04):
Yeah. Yeah. It’s interesting. So I remember, so that company that, that we were the, the top income earns of in 2013, it merged into a larger company and that larger company, you know, like I, I had a lot of internet marketers. I mean, I, I had like, you know, in our space I had,
RH (07:57):
And they’re, they’re big thing was we just don’t want you using our logo or our name. And I’m like done, done deal. And, and I think that that is I think that that’s a smart approach, right? That’s a smart approach to say, don’t use the company name, don’t use, you know, the logo. And I mean, at the time I, I don’t know what it’s like now at the time, I mean, I was getting more traffic than, than their site
RH (08:45):
No, you’re gonna be like, yay. We got Brian Tracy, right? If you brought in you know, some guru, of course they’re gonna continue to sell their stuff. And so if you can allow that, then how can you not allow, you know, this over here? And so there’s, you know, for, for me personally, when I started selling courses, I didn’t market ’em to my team. If someone came to me when we started offering coaching, if someone in team came to me and said, you know, Hey, I wanna hire you as a coach. If they wanted to learn prospecting team, building leadership, duplication closing, you know, the standard kind of stuff of, of network marketing. I’m not gonna charge ’em I, I’m not gonna, you know, hit ’em with some big coaching fee. But if they’re wanting to learn blogging, podcasting, brand, all these things, to me that falls outside the realm of what a network marketing leader should be teaching.
RH (09:41):
And, and so that was a little bit different story. I had a, you know, a few people on my team that, that hired us as, as coaches, but it’s cuz they wanted something that you wouldn’t typically get in network marketing leadership. I think one of the, if, if you look at, at what companies are red hot, I mean red hot these are the companies that are the most flexible they just are. And you know, there’s a lot of you know, we’re not in the eighties where there’s, you can just put hedges up big enough. So no one can, you know, see outside of the company opportunities at every, you know, every second of the day you’re presented with a new opportunity. So the influencer has a lot of options. And, and so I, I think it’s a mistake. If, if companies are saying don’t you dare build a personal brand, but I also think it’s a mistake.
RH (10:28):
If an influencer says you must build a personal brand. So, you know, for example, there’s a lot of, and, and I know I, I go crazy on over here. For example, we, a lot of influencers they’ll bash cold, cold market messaging, right? And so, you know, we teach people how to send, you know, simple messages to people that they don’t know and, and actually get results because some people don’t wanna build a brand. Some people don’t wanna, you know, do all the attraction marketing stuff, they just wanna and get in and get out. Well, one of our students, Christina, Danielle, she’s the number one recruiter in her company. It’s for a pet supplies company which she doesn’t even have a pet. And she does it a hundred percent through cold messaging. That’s someone she doesn’t care to have a brand doesn’t want a brand doesn’t wanna build a traction marketing. She’s the one to get in. She’s the, the number one recruiter in that company. And so there’s a, there’s a lot of things that, that work in network marketing. I think the mistake is saying, this is the only way don’t you dare build a personal brand or you have to build a personal brand.
RV (11:29):
Hmm. Yeah. Well, it’s interesting too, because like back in 2013 you know, that would, that, that makes sense to me to go yeah. Blogging, podcasting, you know, funnel, social media, definitely not part of the mainstream of what you would teach for network marketing, but today it probably is right. Like to go man, like social media, like a lot of these companies thrive or maybe I, I mean, I don’t know, like I’m not as much into it. I mean, I keynote at some of the events, but like, you know, it sure seems like leveraging social media. I mean, you tell me like leveraging social media to grow your business is a, is a, is one way to do it. Like I very, I hear you’re saying you can do it cold, which I believe in, I mean, I was knocking on doors in 2006. Yeah. When people had the internet and people are going, no one is gonna buy books. People have the internet. And yet I made more money than I, than I had any of the previous summers. Like people will always buy from cold calling. It’s not the easiest most glamor, but it totally works. So
RH (12:38):
Here here’s, here’s the difference like you know, for example, way back when, when I first started social media was bashed by every guru and network marketing. So 2009, every guru that is now all for it was like, oh, that doesn’t duplicate, that’s too complicated. I remember going to a conference and you know, a leader, one of the leaders in the company came up to me and said, Hey you’re the guy that recruits a lot of people on Facebook. Right. And I’m like, oh yeah, you know. Yeah, sure. And he said, well, I prefer duplication. And then I’m like, okay, like I, I love that kind of stuff. And so, you know, five months later when I was the number one incomer in the company, I kind of, you know, waved home a little bit. And so like, I I’ve been through all of that.
RH (13:23):
Right now you, of course, should be teaching your team social media for sure. To me, there’s a distinction between teaching how to properly use Instagram, Facebook. How, how do you do reels even TikTok? Like all of those are free platforms. It’s when, to me, it’s when you start to get one level above that, an email list podcast blogging that requires specific knowledge and, and tools. I think you, you should be teaching social media to your team, you know, period that should, that should be part of, of the deal. So even now, if I was running a team, which we retired from building a team in 2016, if I was running a team right now and someone wanted to learn social media from me, I, I would teach ’em I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t charge ’em for that if they were in my organization.
RV (14:08):
Yeah. Let’s talk about that for a second. So like, what are, what are some of the things that you should be doing, you know, and, and for those of you listening, like I just wanna highlight and go network marketing is really just marketing. Like direct sales is really just sales. Like whether you happen to be, you know, selling a supplement and there’s some type of override or whatever, or you’re, you’re running a local donut shop. Like there’s not a lot of the, to a lot of the principles apply. They don’t always, but, so just kind of keep that in mind, but like talking specifically about network marketing, Ray, like if somebody was just starting out today and they just signed with, you know, whatever, pick, pick your, pick your marketing company, what, what should they be doing on social media slash with their personal brand to immediately drive like revenue for their business, new customers?
RH (15:05):
Yeah. And for first, just regarding like, you know, Hey, sales is sales, marketing is marketing the it’s, it’s smarter to think like a franchise, you know, there there’s a line in Michael Gerber’s E MIF book that says the reason McDonald’s franchises rarely fail is because they were designed to be ran by the person with the lowest level of skill. And so that’s how we think about all, all of our training. Can the person with no skill, no influence, no business or sales background, can they do this thing that we’re teaching? And if it requires those things, then that’s not good network. To me, that’s not good network marketing teaching. And so as far as social media, there’s, you know, there’s a few, there’s a few factors. I mean, there’s, there’s, there’s are factors to, will you succeed in network marketing or not pipeline, which is number of people you reach out to follow up with set appointments, with send samples to if that’s what your company does position understanding the position of the prospect when you’re in a conversation, right?
RH (16:08):
So if they havet express any interest, you have no knowledge. Then you have to see if they’re open first, not try to close. ’em See if they’re open three posture, are you easily affected by the opinions of others? Are you to believe in what you have regardless of external acceptance or approval and number four perspective, which is your, your mindset. So how does that translate to social media? Well, you have two categories, prospecting market, right? And so marketing the top of the marketing food chain right now, without question, there is no doubt is the short video we’re in the short video phenomenon, it’s unlike anything any marketer has ever seen. You know, like I was, you know, the last hot trend and marketing in my opinion was way back in, you know, late two thousands, which was Google AdWords and that’s, you know, advertising, but that was red hot.
RH (17:01):
You know, I was taught by a guy that was dropping $30,000 a day, but he was making profit $30,000 a day. And, you know, and it’s, that was crazy. There’s so many people making money on that. The difference now is you now have, have a way to reach more people that don’t know you than ever before and for free. And so, you know, we have students, we, we have one student, she’s got a video, it’s got 15 million views and she didn’t spend a dime on it. And that’s more than who watched the Olympics.
RH (17:53):
So if I was starting right now and I had, let’s just assume big goals, I would have a a prospecting number and I would have a marketing metric of at least three reels a day. So I’d be doing three reels a day. And this is, you know, just adjust if your goals are smaller. But if you, you have big goals, you wanna hit six, seven figures. I would be doing three reels a day and I would have a prospecting goal. And that, that is whatever you have the time for. You know, like when I, when I was serious about becoming the number one income earn, I set a goal of 20 nos a day. So I had to hear 20 nos that day, every day
RH (18:36):
So have a number of how many human beings am I asking if they’re open to my product service or opportunity per day. And that is the key question. Not how many comments am I dropping? Not how many friend requests am I sending? Not how many, you know, anything else, how are you today? Right? None of those I’m I’m saying how many people are you asking? Are you open to my product service or opportunity per day? You combine that with, you know, two, three reels a day optimal, you’re going to build a business and you know, it’s, it’s simple, not easy. And, and I found the no number, one reason that, that people aren’t consistent has nothing to do with tactical or nothing to do with routines or, or anything like that. And we can, we can talk about that if you would like, or if you have more questions.
RV (19:21):
Well, yeah, like I, I think that’s a good, that is good to talk about. I mean, when I, like when I was in college and I was knocking on doors, that was the whole thing was, was you have to do 30 demos in a day. Like you gotta just, you just gotta show this to 30 people who meet the basic criteria qualifications. And it was, you know, it was always, it’s not the theory of averages. It’s the law of averages. And if you show this to 30 people, one to two will buy it. Like no matter how bad you are, right. One to two people are gonna buy it just because they, they need it. And it’s, you know, hopefully it’s a good, it’s a good product. So like I, I do want to hear about the mental side of it. That one thing that I wanna highlight though, that you said that I really love is like, when most people teach marketing that are gonna teach likes followers, comments, shares, engagement, et cetera.
RV (20:15):
But when you said the focus is do three reels a day, which is totally in your control. Yes. And, and focusing on, or like the thing you can control. And it’s like, I don’t know how many views that’ll be. I don’t know how many followers I’ll get. I don’t know how many comments will show up, but like I’m gonna commit to three reels. Every single day is a hugely powerful shift. Just, you know, tactically mentally, even spiritually to go focus, focus on that. So I would like to hear more about why aren’t people consistent, cuz my guess is it has more to do with that perspective as you say that like mindset component. Yeah.
RH (20:58):
You know, I’ve cuz I I’m, I’m a, I’m a consistent guy. I mean I did, you know, I did a video a day every day for 12 years straight because I’m, I’m a lunatic and, and so people have asked me over the years, Hey, what’s your daily routine or how are you so consistent? And so I was, I was a little slow at learning this admittedly looking back, but for the first like five or six years, I would just teach years. My routine and people are like, oh man, that’s awesome. Thank you so much. Then they wouldn’t do it. And so like I’m, I’m like pulling my students. I’m like, Hey, who is anyone doing this? Nobody was doing it. And so I’m, I’m teaching. I’m like, okay, I gotta up my game. I gotta be a better teacher. And so I started asking myself, okay, why do I do it?
RH (21:40):
I’m like, okay. A vision, a vision of who I want to become. So I started teaching that probably five to 8% of people started doing it. And I’m like, okay, there’s gotta be another answer. And what I realized is that there’s two categories of people. There’s, there’s the people that are borderline workaholics. Like I was that are hustling, grinding and to talk about consistency is like that. They’re confused. Right? Why do people, why do do you mean cuz they’re, we’re just, we’re we’re just designed for this stuff and for me, and a lot of, of people that I’ve now coached that’s actually a coping mechanism. It’s actually a coping mechanism with not wanting to spend time with yourself or actually having low self-esteem, which, you know, I grew up in a very abusive home and I didn’t think that that was of affecting me anymore, but it was, it was due to some of those issues of why I struggled to be present with people, why I struggled to have great relationships, but I was always consistent at working the other 95% of people that aren’t consistent.
RH (22:45):
I have found 100% of the time. It is they’ve drawn the wrong conclusion to success based on an observation they made as a kid. Hmm. A hundred percent of the time. So if you had a a parent who was really, really successful and then lost it, all a program was most likely created in you that made you really scared of being ridiculed and never wanting to have a big fall. So if you are afraid of climbing the, of falling off the mountain, just don’t ever climb it. And so what’ll happen is people will get to this, this certain level. And then they’ll just find themselves either distracted, they’ll join a different company or they’ll just not be motivated anymore because past the level is danger. And so the program is there not to hurt you, but to prevent you from feeling a way that really scares you or becoming someone you don’t wanna become, if your parents were really successful and they ignored you, you very likely drew the conclusion that successful parent means ignore a kid.
RH (23:50):
And I don’t want my kids to feel that way. So I don’t know why I can’t get past this level. And you know, I remember I, I coached a lady Tara this was on clubhouse and she like so many people that I’ve I’ve, you know, coached sense. She would go into a company and just rock it up to the top, just crush it, just make it rain break records. And then she would find something wrong and, and leave. And everyone’s like, wait, she left.
RH (24:37):
No drama, no trauma, no abuse, nothing. And you know, they’re awesome. They’re perfect. I’m like, Hmm. Okay. And I know that at programs, often block memories. And so I said, Hey, it’s okay if we don’t, if we don’t, you know, figure it out today. And she’s like, and she remembers catching her mom cheating on her dad. Now five minutes before she said they were perfect. And I know, I know what’s going on, but she’s like, well, what does I have to do with my career? Everything as a kid, she was out of control. She had this perfect scenario was feeling really good about life. And then something happened outside of her control and her reality was crashed. So every time she starts feeling really good about something, she knows that she was about to. So she makes the choice with awareness of that program. She no longer has that program. So now she’s been able to rocket in her, the current company that she’s with. But that’s one example of, of hundreds of different examples. I’ve seen where something happened in the past. Like if we have time, I’ll give one, you know, one more example, you know, when people struggle with motivation,
RV (25:51):
I wanna hear this. I just wanna make sure I’m, I’m, I’m hearing you correctly. That basically you’re saying the reason that people don’t perform is because there is some underlying program that was written perhaps and likely subconsciously yes. From the time they were young yes. That they carry with them. It operates in the background and it basically sabotages them because they there’s this kind of underlying program that’s running in the background.
RH (26:27):
Yes, absolutely. And it’ll disguise it so off as overthinking perfectionism procrastination, or just lack of, of motivation like mine. The one that I discovered I’ve discovered, you know, several is when I was a kid in that house of abuse, some of the relatives knew that no one did anything about it. And so a program was created of, I’m not a priority that program you know, up until this last year, year and a half, I didn’t realize it. But I was that into every relationship I ever had, including the one with my wife. So I would locate and verify how I was in a priority. And that’s why I really struggled with relationships. And if you struggle with relationships, there’s, there’s gonna be a cap to how much impact you can possibly have. And, and so, you know, by me discovering my programs, I’ve been able, a lot of people discover theirs.
RV (27:26):
Yeah. And so you’re, and, and so that’s always there. I mean, all of us have something. I mean, there’s some, there’s something on the hard drive, right. So the you were gonna use one other, you were gonna tell one other example.
RH (27:39):
Yeah. so I was coaching a lady maybe a few months ago and she said, you know, I, I, I get to a certain level and then I’m just like, you know, I’m just not, I’m just not motivated. I know I could do more, but I’m just not motivated. And, and I asked her this very, you know, specific question I said, at what point in your childhood did you figure out that trying hard really didn’t matter. And she’s like, oh, you know, I remember this one day I used my easy bake oven to make these cookies for my dad. And I spent all day making ’em and I decorated ’em. I had ’em all perfect and everything. And when he came home, he yelled at me for using the, the kitchen materials. And man, I think that’s the last time I really tried hard in my life.
RH (28:28):
And so, you know, we’re that, that program is trying to prevent you from feeling that feeling again, it’s not is it’s, it’s trying to keep you safe. It thinks that it’s serving you and it doesn’t want you to figure it out. And so you, you have to do some pretty intense work to, to figure this kind of stuff out. And, but if you’re are not consistent, I guarantee you now, I can’t say that of everyone, but if you’re watching this, if you’re listening to this then, and you’re not consistent, it’s not because you’re lazy. It’s because you’ve drawn the wrong conclusion to getting higher than you currently are. Whatever that means, money impact following success, you know, whatever that means, but you’ve drawn a bad conclusion. There’s something wrong with you stepping it up. It’s something wrong with the next level for you?
RV (29:14):
How do you spot it?
RH (29:18):
The key is one not easy to do by yourself. The, the real key is patterns. Cause you, the decisions that you’ve made have been driven by have been driven by this, these programs, because before you’re aware, you’re on autopilot, right? You’re the puppet on a string. And, and so you’re just you knowing around the cliff, you’re going up and down and you’re making these decisions, thinking that you’re making the decisions, the program’s making the decisions, the program’s making, you see things in a certain light to keep you nice and safe. And so when you become aware, you can, you can become defiant to them. Right? So, you know, like the first time I really confronted my program of me not being a priority. It was a very tough time. My mind, I felt like I was under attack. I mean, my mind was going nuts.
RH (30:12):
And I just thought I was in a, you know, little argument with my wife and I, it came up. I, you’re not a priority, but it’s still a good relationship. That’s what my mind said. And I said, no, I don’t wanna feel that way anymore. I don’t wanna think that anymore. Cuz that’s not true. And
RV (30:44):
Mm-Hmm
RH (30:57):
I mean, that’s, that’s gonna vary based on, you know, based on your life, you know, that’s gonna vary on what, what you’re doing and, and what, you know, what it’s all about. Like, you know, for me, I can now once you become aware of it, you can kind of look backwards and, and, and, you know, like Steve jobs said connect the dots. Right. And and I can see that I’ve, I’ve, I’ve had that program my whole life I’ve had in every friendship, in every business relationship and every personal, I mean, in every relationship I was, I was seeking to prove that I was not a priority and I always verified it because we always verified what we’re seeking.
RV (31:36):
Mm-Hmm
RH (31:39):
So I know we kind of went from network mark. I mean, to deep, deep stuff, here
RV (31:43):
You go. We’re marketing to social media to sort of like limiting beliefs. But the, I mean, I, I think this applies a lot, right? Because a lot of people, I mean, people have the same programs about personal branding or social media, right? Social media is stupid. Social media is a waste of time, social media, whatever. And it’s like, well, there’s a reason why it’s not working for you. Right? Like that’s what you, that’s what you think about it. And it, it’s not the only it’s by, by no means the only way to succeed. But like those underlying programs I think are really, really, you know, they’re, they are really critical. And I think it, you know, tying back to my very first question about like, how do network marketing companies deal with how much flexibility or control they try to extend over the personal brands?
RV (32:30):
There is this old school thought of, I think that is for the most part, been pretty pervasive, which is control. Like we have to, we have to put a fence around our people and, and sort of like shelter them from the rest of the world. And that is really a conflict with like a whole world of decentralization where things are blowing up. Everyone has access to everything. We all see what’s going on in other people’s lives. We can talk to anyone around the world and it’s like, that’s a really big, you know, conflict that we’re, we’re, we’re wrestling with.
RH (33:06):
I, I just, I don’t, I, I just don’t see, you know, and we, I mean, we coach a lot of different leaders work with a lot of different students in different companies. I just don’t see the mega control growing nearly at the pace of some of the more freer companies. And, you know, we’re just, you know, it used to be like, okay, maybe you’re in, you know, whatever you’re in Alabama. And, and there’s only one company that you know of in your area right. Then, okay. You can kind of be controlling, but as soon as you start to ask your show, the question of what if I bring in a big doctor, what if I bring in an author? What if I bring in an influencer, as soon as you bring that up, it’s kind of like, well, well, we gotta accommodate them. Like, well, how can we, how can we say, okay, if you’re successful already, you can keep doing that stuff, but don’t, you dare try to, it just doesn’t make sense. Does
RV (33:58):
That happen? I mean, does that, I mean, I, I know that like oh,
RH (34:01):
All the time
RV (34:02):
Happen all the time,
RH (34:04):
All the time. I mean, so, I mean, I saw, I mean, we recruited one of the top I think like top 10 orthopedic surgeons in the country here in Naples, Florida, I recruited Ron LaGrand. You may know that name. I mean, he ran a, he still, I haven’t stayed in touch with him, but he runs a, a big real estate investment, you know, education company. I think they were doing 20 million a year. We brought in quite a few doctors actually brought in different authors, brought in different speakers for sure. And, and that’s something that a lot of these influencers, you know, they, they, they make money, but most of ’em don’t have residual income. So I, I, I think it’s actually very smart for an influencer if done, right. To have a network marketing thing on, on the background, on the back end, they don’t talk about it every, you know, real or every, you know, post, but to have one in the, in the background so that they can start to build more residual income, cuz most people don’t have that most business owners don’t have that.
RV (35:09):
No, but I think you, I think y’all one, one of the things I’ve been surprised is, you know, at brand builders group, we end up seeing a lot of clients that come to us. You have thousands, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of followers. And they’re going all wanna write a book or build my speaking career, whatever. And we come to find out that somewhere in their back end, they have a, they have a network marketing and that like that a lot of their money comes from the, the, the thing that’s really financing the growth of their personal brand in many cases is more of the network, the network marketing backend. It’s not so much that they’re making money from their personal brand, it’s that they’re using their personal brand and they’re driving people to something on the backend. Like I’ve been shocked at how common that is
RH (35:54):
Very, very common. I mean, you know, it’s, it’s kind of a natural thing of if you, if you gain success and you feel that limelight in a network marketing company, cuz network marketing companies are amazing at edification, making people feel good, feel appreciated. And so you, you, you know, you get a taste of that and you know, you, you may get a taste and you’re at a point where to get bigger taste is a really big leap or you’ve already tasted all the limelight you can, you know, possibly get and you still want to grow. You wanna stretch out. And so it goes from being the person, you know, signing autographs in your company to getting people outside of your company, to know you, which is actually beneficial for the company. And that’s, that’s where, you know, some companies I think misunderstand think that they’re going away, they’re actually, you know, going out into foreign lands and, and, you know, informing more people about that company, if they’re treated right. If they’re not treated right, then a lot of times that influencer’s gonna make a different decision.
RV (36:52):
Yeah. Well, and I, you know, the thing I’ve always,
RH (37:45):
That, that’s a, that’s a great point. So when a new person would come to me and say, Hey, I wanna do blogging. I wanna do podcasting or whatever, I’d say, okay. You know, I, you, you certainly can now just understand it’s more expense of, and it takes longer when, starting than if you just follow the system. And so, you know, and, and nine times outta 10, I would talk ’em outta that fame because they think that’s simple, fast and easy. And, and it’s not, you know, it’s not simple, fast and easy build a YouTube channel or, or a huge following or a blog or, or a podcast. And so like, you know, I would always give, you know, the freedom of choice. Hey, you can, might take you a little bit longer than if you do it this way. And if they’re looking for speed, that’s really good advice because you doing the, you doing the basics of, of prospecting and, and, you know, basic marketing, you’re gonna get faster results than building out, you know, infrastructures. And, and so, you know, it, it is a good point. What a lot of, of, of influencers do is not what they did to reach the top. You know, a lot of them, you know, did you know, did the work prospecting, marketing the basics, reach the top then became an influencer and most, but most people don’t understand that. So you, you do need to teach that.
RV (39:05):
Yeah, no, it’s, it’s really similar to like, you know, people we’re really big on find your uniqueness, figure out the one thing that you can do in the world better than anyone else. And that that’s really how you break through the wall. Not by trying to talk about lots of things and lots of places to lots of different people and people go, well, what about Gary Vaynerchuck? And we say, Gary’s actually the perfect example, because he does talk about everything now. But in the beginning he talked about wine on just YouTube. And that was how he broke through the wall, right? Like in the beginning, the rock was just a wrestler in the beginning, Ellen DeGeneres was just a comedian. Like it, they, they, they all break through on the one thing it’s really similar to, to this conversation. And people need to be taught. Don’t do what they’re doing now, do what they did to get there.
RH (39:53):
Right. And, and here’s the thing about dub, how you generate a lead is not what has to be duplicatable, because if that were true, then you couldn’t, you couldn’t recruit an influencer, an author, you couldn’t recruit a doctor. You
RV (40:09):
Say that again,
RH (40:10):
The way you generate a lead does not have to be duplicatable. What you do with the lead that’s what has to be duplicatable. So if you’re relying on your, so however you generate a lead that does not have to be duplicatable because I know people you don’t, and that doctor knows has clients, and I’m not gonna tell ’em don’t you dare talk to your clients, cuz not everyone has clients like that would make no sense. It’s what you do with the lead. So if the doctor has a pamphlet in their, in their you know, office and people say, Hey doc, you know, you know, here, let’s just say opportunity. Hey doc, it says right here, I can make some, you know, extra money you know, is this something I should do? If the doctor says, yes, I highly recommend it. That’s not duplicatable.
RH (40:56):
If the doctor says, you know what? We have a short video and this is the video that will tell you if it’s a fit for you or not. And by the way, if you ever wanna tell other people, you’d use this same video, watch this video, see if it’s a fit for you. That’s duplicatable now is how he generated the lead duplicatable. No, and it doesn’t need to be, it’s what you do with the lead. So when I would have people come to me after building a brand and say, Hey man, I wanna work with you. I don’t know what company you’re in, but I’m gonna give you my credit card. I would, I would have that happen. And I’d say, Hey, I really appreciate that. That is awesome. Thank you so very much. But you know what? Let’s make sure this thing’s a fit for you. I’m gonna send your short video, watch this video. And the cool thing is that’s the same video that you’ll use. Okay. That’s duplicatable. It says, oh, oh, I must watch a video before I join this thing to kind of get the gist of it. Got it. And it’s the same tool that I would use if I rely on personality, charisma or influence, that’s not duplicatable. And so it’s not how I generate the lead. It’s what I do with the lead. Once they’re in the conversation, once we’re having that communication,
RV (41:55):
Mm-Hmm
RH (42:12):
Yeah. You know, if you’re a, you know, like a lifelong learner, like, like me, I mean I do self development every single day and I have for forever
RV (42:50):
That’s that’s I mean, if you made a video every single day for what did you say? 12 years. 13
RH (42:56):
Years. Yeah. I, so from Ja July 15th, 2009 to July of 2021, I made a, at least one video a day. And the only reason I stopped is I was in a meditation retreat. I’m just like, eh, I’m not gonna do it.
RV (43:09):
Yeah, that’s funny. I,
RH (43:10):
But then I picked it back up the next week.
RV (43:14):
Yeah. Well, I, I think you know, this is interesting Ray and I, I think to me, there is, there is the world of network marketing and affiliate marketing and info marketing and digital marketing all seem to sort of like be colliding, like as, as the tools are available to everybody and the lifestyle is available to everybody and people are more interested in freedom and, you know, time what’s, what’s your book, time, time, freedom, money, right?
RH (43:48):
Yeah. time, time, money, freedom, time,
RV (43:51):
Money, freedom
RH (43:52):
By hay house. Yep. That’s my wife and I wrote this and it’s you know, this is not specific to network marketing. It’s you know, 10 simple rules to redefine what’s possible and radically reshape your life. It’s basically what what I, I did to get out of foreclosure and, and build a, you know, a business and it’s what Jess did to get away from the makeup counter. And and so, you know, it’s helped lot of people inside and outside network marketing.
RV (44:19):
Yeah. Well, super thought provoking, man. Always great to connect with you. Thank you so much for your time and keep helping, helping people make rank, man. You’re you’re you’re doing it.
RH (44:30):
My pleasure, man. Thanks for having me.