AJV (00:00): Hey, y’all. Welcome to the Influential Personal Brand podcast, AJ Vaden here today. And I am so, so excited for today’s guest for so many reasons. One, I love her personally. And as I get to introduce Chris, Jan since you guys formally in just a second, I have had the privilege of getting to know Chris over the last year in a variety of different ways. But she’s one of the sweetest, hardest working , personable. Honestly, like when you think about like the ideal person to kind of partner with, like Chris is always, we use her as the exemplary example of like, this is what it means to do the work all the time. And you’re gonna learn about what kind of work she’s been doing as we get into our interview today. But for those of you who are listening, I always tell you why, why do you need to stick around? AJV (00:51): And how do you know if this episode is for you? So I invited Chris on the show today for two reasons. One, she’s in the middle of a book launch, right? So when I talk about hardworking , that’s what we’re gonna talk about. Like, what does it mean to launch a bestselling book? Not necessarily just the writing part, right? But the marketing, the selling, the promotion all the work that goes into the words on the pages, but then getting books in hands of people. So if you are an aspiring author, you are an author in process of writing a book, you are just in the process of selling your book. You’re in a book launch, or man, you’re just curious of what it would be like to do that one day. And this is an episode for you. This is a custom tailored episode for the authors and aspiring audience, aspiring authors in our audience. AJV (01:38): Secondarily, though, we’re gonna actually talk about the contents of her book, which I think is just a really important topic. And Chris’s upcoming book is called Grace Yourself. And without getting too much into the contents of the book right now, let’s just say that it’s a great reflection of a lot of people are talking about dry January as we are in January, 2025 at the recording of this episode. And so we’re gonna talk about what it means to be sober, curious, and Chris’s journey on that path. So that is, that is who this episode is for. Now, let me formally introduce you to Chris so we can get to our interview, which is the best part. Chris Janssen is a leading results coach in performance and mindset. She’s a bestselling author who’s worked with hundreds of sought after creators entrepreneurs soldiers, small business o owners. She has been taught by and has worked with Tony Robbins on his team of results coaches. She’s a board certified coach with a master’s in counseling psychology with more than 20 years of experience. Chris, welcome to the show. CJ (02:42): Thanks, aj. I have the biggest smile on my face ’cause it’s so fun to be here with you. Yes. AJV (02:48): This is going to be an amazing episode for so many reasons. But I know that I just get asked all the time, like, what is it like, what do you have to do to have a bestselling book and what, what does that even mean? And since you’re in the middle of a book launch right now, and this is not your first book, what I would love for you to share with the audience is one, what’s been your journey of writing and publishing books up to this one? And how has this one similar or different than what you’ve done in the past? CJ (03:20): Mm. That’s such a good question. Yeah, because people ask a lot, you know, what, what do I have to do to write a book? And there’s so much to know, and I am a good person to ask because the first book I self-published and no regrets. I did learn a lot of what I wanted to do differently the second time, though. And so I kind of thought, like a lot of authors, I hear this a lot, that I would write a great book. I had a great editor. I had, I had help. I knew what I was doing. I’m really proud of it. It’s a really good book. It’s a coaching book. But I thought, you know, let’s, let’s self-publish. We’ll put it out there so people can start reading it. I didn’t, none of the, you know, the prep, right? I didn’t, I didn’t have the audience ahead of time. I didn’t think about lists. I just thought all that came after that. If you write a book, you then people start calling you AJV (04:13): . Did they? CJ (04:15): They, it was, they did not like, I thought though, , but they did. You know, I was asked in small things, you know, I was asked to speak at church. I was asked to do, I, and I did things that were very fun. And really though I did write that book for my clients because I wanted a tool. And I think that’s a great reason to write a book, is who are you writing it for? So I, every word of that book, I knew who I was writing to and I wrote it to my clients. And it’s, it’s a very handy tool. The second time, I would say call brand builders . I called brand builders because, you know, I’ve, I’ve heard you talking about bestselling books. And by that time I knew I had missed the window to make bestseller lists. So now I am full of information of what to do different. CJ (05:07): I am still doing it a little bit backwards where I am writing this second book, and I don’t have a huge audience. I have a thriving coaching business. So I have kind of doubled up on the PR side where I’m using the bestseller bestseller launch plan strategy. And then I’m also using a little bit of PR to get me on more stages, right? Because I didn’t have that element. And that’s been phenomenal. I mean, that, it just, it’s like the butterfly effect. It just, people tell, people tell people, and then the message gets to get in the hands of the people. ’cause Not everyone wants to read a coaching book or a book on sobriety. And then when you have these specific audiences, though, those are the people who are looking for that material and they tell the other people looking for that material. Yeah. So it’s been great this time AJV (06:03): Around. Well, you know, I, I love that you’ve done it both ways, right? Mm-Hmm . And for all of you guys listening, Chris was our first ever signed author at Mission-Driven Press, which is the hybrid publishing imprint that we started which is a sister company of brand builders group. And so Chris has been so gracious and so helpful to come along as we kind of like cover the, the bumps and bruises of her being our very first author. But what I also think is so powerful is that we tell this to people all the time. There’s like, there’s, there’s self-publishing, there’s hybrid publishing, and then there’s traditional publishing. And they’re all three extremely different. They’re, they’re very different. But I would, I would say something to you that you said, it’s like, I’m kind of doing it backwards. I still don’t have the biggest audience, but we have also seen, for everyone who’s listening, we’ve seen people who have mm-hmm . Millions of followers on social media. Mm-Hmm . Millions of people on their email list mm-hmm . And they still miss the bestseller list. Mm-Hmm . Why? ’cause they thought all they needed to do was write the book. CJ (07:07): Right? AJV (07:08): I don’t have to go Right. Tell people to buy it. I don’t need to pick up the phone. I don’t need to like do a launch. I already have a huge following. If I write a book, they’ll just buy it. And we’ve literally heard people tell us that. And you know what? Nobody bought the book. CJ (07:24): Right? Yeah. We’ll sit on a black, in a black hole on Amazon, or wherever it is, , right. Where books are sold. So that’s exactly right. AJV (07:33): And so sometimes it’s not always about how big is the audience, it’s mm-hmm . How engaged and how Target is targeted, is the audience. ’cause We’ve seen the exact same thing happen mm-hmm . So I would love to know so through this process, what would you say out of all of the things that you’ve been doing during this launch season what would you say for you has been, like, for everyone listening again, who’s thinking about like, okay, well I want to do that one day. Like, what would you say here, here’s what you need to know if you want to write and launch a bestselling book. Like, what would you tell that person listening today? CJ (08:09): Get in front of targeted audiences. And you’re, before you even pick up the pin, know who your audience is, know who you’re writing to, and then those are the people that will, you’ll want to get in front of, to start talking about your book months before the launch and months after the launch. So the, those, those specific people, like if you have a following on Facebook or Instagram, a lot of those people might be your friends now. Like, let’s use me, for example, I have lot of friends and they follow me on my socials and they wanna hear what my kids are up to and this type of thing. They don’t all wanna hear about my book, and this book might not be for them. So I, it was the, the most helpful thing was getting help, getting in front of the people who want and need this. CJ (09:00): And then also not getting tripped up in the numbers, just staying focused on impact. You are a, a steward of your message. If God put it on your heart to write a book, especially if it’s a vulnerable book that was uncomfortable to write, then you, then your mission is to steward that message after launch for the rest of your life, really. And so if God put it on your heart, he’s going to help you do that. So the people will, the people that need to hear the message will show up. The reason for wanting to make bestseller lists though isn’t fame or numbers. It is the impact, right. It is being a steward of your message. And if it does make lists, your message, you’ll being a better steward of your message because it’s, it’s going to reach more people. AJV (09:51): Mm. I love that. I think that’s such a great clarifying distinction of hitting a bestseller list is not for ego or vanity or any of that. It’s, it’s, it’s a sign that you are doing what you are supposed to do and reaching the people that you wrote it for. Mm-Hmm . CJ (10:09): Exactly. AJV (10:10): That’s really, really good. I would be, I would be so curious to go, so you said you’ve had some luck with pr, CJ (10:17): Right? AJV (10:17): Mm-Hmm . And have, we have a variety of experiences on both sides of the corn. Right? Right. But you know, our, we, you know, our opinion, and for those of you listening, so we have a love hate relationship with pr, right? Yeah. Because sometimes it moves the needle and a lot of times it doesn’t. Right. But when it does, what, well, it’s a great success story. Mm-Hmm . So I would love to hear from you, as I’m sure everyone else is, is like, well, is it worth the money? Where should you put the money? So on the PR scheme, what’s been working? CJ (10:45): So what’s, well, I, I’m a lucky one. My daughter, she’s 25, she runs a pr, an LA based PR company. She runs the UK division in London. So I had the advantage of one, the publisher, you guys sent me a, like a list of maybe 15 vetted PR places that they know love and work with. So that’s great. Have a rep get it from somebody you trust in anything, in anything to do with the publishing world. Trust is a big thing, right? People are out to make money on your dream. So no, these hybrid publishers, you know, you wanna have a reputable vetted people that you’re working with. So we, my daughter helped me take those, say 15 PR companies and reach out to the top five that, that I thought were really in line with my mission. So of the book like that. So, so not my mission as a coach, not my mission as a person, the mission of the book. And so those people I reached out to, and then, you know, there was one, I just had a gut feeling that stood out above them all. And, and I, it, it was a really good match. She’s been wonderful. And so the audiences I’m getting in front of are very in line with the mission of the book. AJV (12:07): So I think this is a great question because I think a lot of people hear about pr, but they don’t really know what it means. Mm-Hmm . So can you like, and not everyone gets to have a daughter in the industry, right? CJ (12:18): Exactly. Right. That’s why I’m trying to like, teach what I know from her. AJV (12:23): But I think it’s really like, so like for those who are listening, it’s like, okay, great, but what did they do for you? Like, give us some insights. CJ (12:29): Mm-Hmm . Right? So there’s digital, like somebody could come and they could do take over your Instagram page, for example. They could do your newsletter so that mine doesn’t do that. So know, you know, know those questions to ask, are you gonna be help me digitally? What are you helping me? And then there’s, are you helping me get on podcasts, TV shows, writing news article. For example, mine were, were really FI was on a TV show this morning, but she’s helping me with mostly podcasts because, and then also know the trend. It needs to be what the trends change every six months. So it has to be what’s helping people make bestseller lists that month. Mm-Hmm . And then she had an idea to get me in front of, because I love writing to get me in front of people that would run articles that I write. CJ (13:21): So I’m writing some articles for different publications, and then you get to talk about the book and it tells you where to buy the book. So that’s all good. So that’s what this, but not all PR companies are gonna do that exact thing. Some are just more tv. Some are just virtual things. Some are more social media. Some do all of it. Some do a lot of in-person events. One of the ones I interviewed is here in LA and was going to get me in front. That was like my, I was trying to decide between this one and the other one. They were gonna get me in front of a lot of in my community in la a lot of like book signings or the, at the local bookstore, that type of thing, which is also really good. So that was, it was a tough decision because they’re all good. So there’s not one size fits all for sure. Like anything. AJV (14:16): Yeah. Well, I love that. ’cause I think what I hear you saying, it’s like, like with anything, before you go searching out a PR firm or like with anything else that you’re gonna spend money on, do your research and know what are you actually trying to get out of this mm-hmm . And I think when a lot of people say, oh, well I’ve hired pr, it doesn’t work. It’s like, did it not work? Or were you just trying to like, throw mud against the wall and see what sticks? And I love that there’s like a, a very targeted approach. It’s like, no, are you trying to get in front of audiences? Is this podcast, is it tv, is it digital? Is it book signings? And again, with anything without a clear strategy, anything is likely not to work, CJ (14:55): Right? And like as a coach, we’re always very hyper-focused on the outcome. So what have a crystal clear outcome. So I came to the these inter these vetting these people with the outcome. The outcome for me was to make a bestseller list, right? Like I said, for the reasons I said. So somebody’s outcome might be to get well known or famous. Those are two different outcomes. So know your outcome before you start looking for who to work with. AJV (15:23): Yeah. And so I know that you did this too, looking for publishers, so mm-hmm . Same thing with pr. So what were you looking for when you decided to go on a publishing hunt? Because the first time you did this, it was a self-publisher mm-hmm . And I think, again, everyone who’s listening very high level, right? You have self-publishing, which is basically, you are paying for it, right? But you’re also mm-hmm . You’re doing the editing, you’re picking out all the artwork. It’s the cheapest way to get a book out there. But you’re doing all the work, right? You’re the writer, you’re the editor, you’re the creative , you’re all the things. Then there’s hybrid where it’s like you pay for it upfront. But you have a partner on the back end who’s gonna take care of the editorial and the cover designs and the printing and the publishing and the distribution. And then you’ve got traditional publishing, which is typically they pay you upfront, but then they take all your money on the backend, right? So I think CJ (16:17): It’s, well, and they take the rights to your book AJV (16:18): And they own it, right? Mm-Hmm. And I think mm-hmm. For people who are going, well, if you listen to that, you just have to like, pick up the nuance of the creator at some point is always paying for it. CJ (16:29): Mm-Hmm AJV (16:29): . Right? Right. There is, there is an investment on behalf of the Craig creator. So you’re gonna pay for it upfront and own it, which is our preference, or you’re going to get paid for it upfront, and they’re gonna take all the money on the back end and you don’t own it. And so That’s right. So I think it’s, it’s when people think, well, oh, it’s better to have an advance. It’s like, well, is it it depends on your goals, like with anything. So you did self-publishing the first time mm-hmm . You decided hybrid publishing the second time mm-hmm . What was a part of that choice? What was a part of that decision? CJ (17:02): Right. So a few distinctions. One I’ll say even traditional publishing, you’re gonna spend money because you’re gonna have an editor help you make it look fantastic before you send the proposal in. So there’s always an investment on the author’s part. Especially with the, the first one to three books, let’s say. And, and technically hybrid publishing is self-publishing. We have, you’re, you’re technically called an indie author, like when I go into my books in book contests and stuff, because I’ve done hybrid the second time in self, the first time. They’re both in the self-publishing category as opposed to traditional publishing. So the greatest thing is you get to keep your rights. Now self-publishing can be done really well. Like I did self-publishing. The first time I hired a developmental editor, she helped me hire the copy editor, and I hired a cover designer and interior designer. CJ (18:04): And there’s websites in places that can help you. And I, it, I will just say this, all of me wanted to do hybrid because I didn’t want to be the one out there hiring these people. I couldn’t trust anybody. Mm. People need to know there’s not, every hybrid publisher is trustworthy, right? There’s Vanity Pub publishers, some of them will even take the rights if you can believe it and, and take a lot of royalties too. And so that is why I kept coming back to the self-publishing with the first one. And then when I met brand builders, I thought, okay, well I’m working with them. I already know and trust them. So that took care of the trust part. And then I heard you all were having a mission driven press, and I just thought, well, let’s get . Let’s get it going. We need it now. And so that was the biggest thing for me, was finding someone I could trust. And this has been so much more fun the second time because, because you all came with this really professional team of people that’s been doing this for years, that have the developmental editor, the copy editor, the cover designer, the interior designer, and then even the people helping with marketing and audiobook and all the other things. So it really is a one stop shop. So if people can find someone they trust, hybrid’s a really wonderful way to do it. AJV (19:39): Yeah. And I, I, I think that’s such an important conversation on the trust part, because I think it’s all important at, at the end of the day, what’s most important in my opinion, is like the creator gets to keep what they create. Mm-Hmm . And that is a huge, like, you’re trusting someone else with your intellectual property. And it’s not only that, it’s like what you said, it’s like, Hey, this is a message that wasn’t meant just for me. It was meant for me to put on the pages of books and get it out into the world. And you’re trusting in, you know, the validity of, Hey, are you, are you gonna do what you say you’re gonna do? Do you believe in this message? Are you gonna help me get it out there? And it’s, I tell people, it’s like when you know that you’re supposed to write a book is when you go, like, it is not about anything else other than getting this message to the hands of other people. AJV (20:28): And that is a big trust jump. Mm-Hmm . I mean, that is a huge partnership endeavor of going, I’m entrusting this thing that I feel called to and I’m trusting you to help me do it. So I I love that you said that. I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone else talk about that when selecting, it’s been more of the logistics and details of the partnership and arrangement, but it’s like, no, trust is a big deal because you’re gonna spend years of your life on this between the ideation and the writing and the publishing and the selling and the marketing and the talking mm-hmm . About it forever and ever and ever. Like, this is a large part of your life. It better be a trusted partnership. CJ (21:06): That’s right. And it’s a really vulnerable process. Right. There’s I don’t get hit with a ton of rejection and, and criticism. It is vulnerable though. So you wanna be around people that, that make your nervous system calm. Mm-Hmm . You know, that you wanna be around people that, you know, have your back. Right. And so there are some, you know, like your team is fantastic. There’s some other teams, though I know a lot of other authors where, you know, it’s yucky. There’s, there’s lawsuits people feel like they were taken advantage of. So I just think those feelings on top of all the work that you need to do to launch a book, I just don’t see that helping at all to have that contradictory feelings when it’s already hard enough to be vulnerable and get a book out into the world. AJV (22:00): You know? I love too that you brought this up because I have also never heard anyone else bring up this part of, Hey, don’t forget, like, this is also an emotional ride for the author . Yes. There are some vulnerability factors here of I, I, I remember maybe it was like a year ago, ’cause at Mission-Driven Press, I, I still am the one who approves all the books that we decide to publish. Not every book is a fit for us. So I still do a content review of all the books that are being submitted. And I just remember someone saying, it’s like, well, before I submit the book, like, are y’all gonna like critique it ? And it was like one of those like very interesting things. And I’m like, oh my goodness, there I, you, you forget that this is someone’s life’s work. AJV (22:47): Mm-Hmm . Right? Mm-Hmm . And I was like, well, I was like, well, no, I won’t critique it. I’ll just tell you if it’s a fit for what we do or not, but not looking for a critique unless you, you want us to critique it. And they’re like, no, no, no, no, no. Right. And I think it’s a really, it is vulnerable and it’s like you’re, especially through the editing process mm-hmm . Rory and I just finished our manuscript a few weeks ago and it’s been in content development. Yes. Yay is right. Yeah. Yay is right. We are, yes. Yay. But it was interesting ’cause both of us were waiting on the content development edits to come back and you know, it is vulnerable to go through all the comments of like, well, this is a little wordy here, and I wouldn’t use this word there and I know what you’re getting at, but I don’t think it’s gonna hit the reader. Right. And it’s like, what do you mean? Like says who says who? It won’t hit the reader, you know, and it is vulnerable and you have to put your ego aside and go mm-hmm . This is not about me. Mm-Hmm . Or this is not about me. This is not about what I wanna say. It’s about what they need to hear. CJ (23:46): Right. That’s right. AJV (23:48): But I think that’s a good thing of like, the writing process is vulnerable, the editing process is vulnerable, the sales processes too. And it’s like, right there is a lot of people who are like, yeah, I love what you’re doing. Not gonna buy any. It’s like, great, thanks. Great welcome. You know, welcome to to business and to sales. Mm-Hmm . And I think that’s probably the underlying tone that it’s important for everyone to, to hear. Like, this is like a business. CJ (24:15): It really is. I’m so fortunate I have my husband around me because he’s so great at business and he works from home, so he, you know, and he sees me working from home. So he’s been a constant sounding board for me to keep going. Don’t take it personally, to really believe in the impact and the message and have, have confidence selling, right? Yeah. So, AJV (24:42): Yeah. I mean, I think that’s a huge thing for everyone to realize. Mm-Hmm. It’s like launching a book is like launching a business. CJ (24:47): Yes. AJV (24:48): Genuinely speaking. Now let’s talk about the book for a second. ’cause Okay. I wanna make sure that as we talk about the process of writing and, you know, publishing and launching a book, but you have a book coming out mm-hmm . You have a book coming out in March. So we are just CJ (25:03): February, February AJV (25:04): 18. Oh, is it February? February 18th? Yes. Okay. Yes. So we’re just a few weeks away. Mm-Hmm . And so let’s talk a little bit about what is, what is Grace Yourself about CJ (25:14): Grace Yourself, the subtitles, how to show Up for the Sober Life You Want. And I love the subtitle. So the subtitle of my first book is The First Book’s, living All In How to Show Up for the Life You Want. And I love Show up and for the Life you want because in coaching, we need to know what we want, right? That’s always my first question. What do you want? And we need to show up for the strategy to get what we want. Showing up iss easy when it’s easy, and we need to show up when it’s not easy. So for this book particularly, because it does share my story of sobriety to me showing up is for life is the opposite of numbing out when things get uncomfortable or checking out, and we can check out or numb in small ways and big ways. CJ (26:06): And it doesn’t need to be alcohol. It can be all kinds of things. We all can think of ways. I mean, it could even be biting our nails, right? There’s just things that we do to check out or not show up. And I’m writing this to let people know, here’s my story, but I’m using this story to couple it with my coaching tools to show you, you don’t need to be afraid. You can show up for life. And here’s all these tools to help you do that. So someone doesn’t need to be even in an act of addiction, and it doesn’t even need to be alcohol for this book to be beneficial, because you’re gonna take whatever that thing is, and these tools will help, they’ll help take the shame off, get it out of the darkness. Let let you know you’re not alone. Let you know there’s millions of people struggling with the same thing. We’re not unique. We don’t, you know, we’re not special. We are special just like everybody else. . That’s right. Right. And so our addictions and hangups and things are not, they’re not unique. And so we do need to share stories and be in community. And it’s a very practical book that walks people through this hold your hand and says, here are the questions that ask yourself to get unstuck. AJV (27:24): I love that. What, what does the title Grace Yourself, like, where did that come from? CJ (27:32): So I love this title. The, to me, since I am a Person of Faith, to me it’s God’s grace, and that’s unmerited favor. And I explain in the book how, to me, what I’ve seen with people that fall into negative patterns and addictions. A lot of us have control issues. We, because in essence, we’re controlling our state. We’re, we’re, we’re looking to control the way we feel or control not feeling the way we don’t wanna feel. And we do that, like I said, in with lots of different ways. And so grace, since grace from God is unmerited favor, it means I don’t get to control whether I receive it or not. And so as a person, as a young woman who struggled with perfectionism and rigid thinking, and really, you know, high achiever, I have to control everything. I did not understand grace as a young person because I thought I had to control everything I earned. CJ (28:36): I’ll tell you what I’m worth. I’ll tell you if I deserve it or not. The concept that something’s free, even if I don’t deserve it, just didn’t compute with me. So I go through that in the book and, and what I really want people to know is they’re worthy no matter what, you’re worthy and you get grace, even though we don’t deserve it. Mm-Hmm . You’re worthy. If you’re addicted, you’re wor you don’t have to get clean to take a bath. You’re already valuable and worthy. Right. So we can start from wherever we are right now. And that is where the Grace yourself came from, is understanding that unmerited favor and not, and letting go of needing to be in con in control of our own worth. AJV (29:23): Mm. I love that. And I think it’s so applicable too to the story of sobriety. Mm-Hmm . I’ve had so many people share that, you know, hey, it’s like you know, I started with, Hey, I’m just gonna do a week mm-hmm . And then they were like, well, maybe I can do a month and if I don’t make it though, you know, and it was so interesting. It’s like there is a little grace of, it’s like, it’s okay to fall off and it’s okay to get back on mm-hmm . But I feel like there’s a, a growing trend mm-hmm . Of people who are sober, curious and sobriety. And I, as you know, I live in Nashville, Tennessee, and I’d say like one of the biggest trends in Nashville right now are zero proof bars. Mm-Hmm . There’s like a zero proof I don’t even know what you call it. It’s not a liquor store, but it’s a zero proof liquor store. There’s CJ (30:11): All these, right. We have the mm-hmm AJV (30:12): . Yeah. But it’s like their entire stores of is, everything is zero proof. There’s all these new bars and every menu now has some sort of zero proof wine or, or drink or whatever. And it wasn’t that way even a year ago. CJ (30:27): No. AJV (30:27): Like, it, this is a, a very big growing trend. And I’m just one, so this book is like right on par with a lot of the things mm-hmm . That people are talking about. And I’ve, I have a lot of friends who are sober, have been sober. My husband Rory, he’s sober eight years. I’m sober almost two years. Yay. And I, I don’t know if you have noticed this, ’cause you walk in this life as well. Like, what have you noticed in terms of why now? Like, is is it not just now or is it just because people are on social media talking about it now, but there seems to be more of a growing public, like no, like, we’re accommodating this, like we’re promoting this that didn’t exist before. Why do you think that is? CJ (31:12): Well, I think it’s like cigarettes, right? We all . If we, if we remember back then, we all used to smoke. And then over time the knowledge, right? We became educated that these were killing us. And there’s a lot of content out there right now that alcohol is a toxic poison. And now we have the facts where, remember they used to say a red wine, a cup of red wine a day is good for your health. Yeah. Well, so is grape juice and eating blueberries because it has antioxidants, right? So it’s misinformation. So I think that’s part of it. It is interesting to me though, because I got sober out of necessity in 2007 and, and I tell this story in the book where it, we didn’t have sober curious. We didn’t have mocktails. No, you were weird. If you didn’t drink , it was, it was no like, and you were alcoholic. CJ (32:09): I do identify as an alcoholic. I do go into detail in that, in the book and explain that there’s no la regarding labels use what label works for you. It energizes me because to me it was a solution to something that I was trying to quit on my own. Like, I walked into a meeting, heard, there’s this thing called alcoholism, and there’s all these beautiful women in the meeting that just beautiful humans that like, yeah, we’re alcoholic too, and there’s a solution and it’s not your fault. It’s like an allergy and you never have to have another drink again. That for me, took all the shame off my shoulders. It changed the narrative from I’m a monster because I can’t stop drinking to, I’m worthy of sobriety and recovery because I can’t stop drinking. So it, it’s so much easier now for people. I do think, I do touch on this in the book. CJ (33:05): I think that it’s important if you’re like me, where you kind of re because alcohol is a progressive condition, which means the more you drink, you don’t, you don’t build up a tolerance and get better at it. You get worse at it. And if you quit drinking for a certain amount of years and then pick it up again, you’re going to be worse off than when you started Just age. Does that, so it is, that’s a medical fact. It’s a progressive condition. So some people we, like we say, in recovery, you can’t you’ve been pickled, so you can’t go back to being a cucumber. Hmm. Even if you quit drinking 30 years and then decide to try it again, you can’t go back to being a cucumber. So the book is really for people like me who got pickled. Mm-Hmm. And we can’t go back. CJ (33:53): And we do have a stigma. Like it really messed with us. It messed with our self-worth. We dealt with shame and guilt. And I am all for all for any recovery movement. I love that people are sober curious that we have mocktails, that people are going alcohol free. And for these people, I, a lot of my friends and clients are doing this. And it’s wonderful. I don’t think those people all need a support community or recovery community, if that makes sense. People like me, and there’s a chapter or section in the book called Alcoholic Like Me. We, we have to be in community because the world is changing, but it still is the way it is. And so we have to be sharing stories. We can’t do it alone. And we need to stay in community. So we don’t, our forgetter doesn’t forget and start thinking that we are like these other people that can just quit for health reasons. CJ (34:48): Some of us just can’t. And so do make that distinction in the book. And I also say in the book, look, don’t, don’t diss anybody. If they wanna call themselves an alcoholic, if they wanna go to AA or don’t wanna go to aa, let’s not get hung up on these things. Recovery, sobriety, health, it’s all a win. We all have, we’d have different churches for people. We have different therapists for people. Mm-Hmm . We have different recovery groups for people and different mocktails for people. Because there’s no one size fits all. So we all just need to be kind and not dis the language or get hung up on the, the logos or you know, of it all. I love that. Yeah. AJV (35:32): I think that’s really important. ’cause I think that that’s a great distinction. It’s some people do it for health reasons, some people do it. Because it’s a necessity, right? It’s a lifesaving choice. They have to make, there’s a lot of different reasons why people are making these choices. For the person who’s out there, who’s going, what does it even mean to be sober? Curious? Like what, what, what is the first step? What would you say? CJ (36:00): I think it’s probably yeah, they starting to ask yourself those questions. Could I live without this thing in my life? And it might not be alcohol. Like I said, it could be something else that’s a stronghold. And so I think that the important thing to ask is really get leverage on yourself and ask and write it down, what is the cost of giving this thing up? And be honest about it. Because there will be a cost, it will require some grit. It will require the neuroplasticity in your brain to change. It will require, you know, when you pick up a new workout routine, it’s gonna require going to the gym and doing that. We don’t just get biceps one time at the gym, so it’s gonna, there’s gonna be some cost, unfortunately. Unfortunately. I know. So be honest with yourself about that and write down what, what is the cost of removing this thing from my life? CJ (36:53): And then write down what is the cost of not removing it from my life? And really be honest and look at that. And that’s how you get leverage on yourself. And so if the cost of not removing it is greater, then you’re gonna need to find some grit, read some self-help books like mine and then, and get in community. Right. But I’ll say if someone’s trying to do this at dry January, I really want people to take the shame off of it. If they start my friend across the street, oh, I did dry January and I already messed up. Well, we don’t need, you didn’t mess up. You’re just, it’s all there. It’s, it’s not a straight line. Mm-Hmm . Right. It’s two steps forward, three steps back some days. So just grace yourself, keep moving forward, but keep asking those questions to make it sustainable. AJV (37:46): Why do, that’s a great point. So why, why do you think that for the person who, who does resonate with this, and they go, well, I’m, I’m curious. And then some, like, I know I need to make a change. I know that there, I do have a stronghold in my life and I need to get rid of it. Why is it that’s that we, some people can just be like, cold Turkey, I quit. I’m, I’m never doing it again. And there’s others of us who it’s like, man, it’s like, well, I did fall off. Mm-Hmm . And again and again. Like what, what trends have you seen both in your coaching practice and in your own personal life? It’s like, what causes the fall off? CJ (38:25): Hmm. Oh, well we’re human really. I mean, and the reason for falling off is ’cause it’s hard. Mm-Hmm . It’s hard to give something up. That’s a pattern. Especially if it’s a really ingrained pattern and something you’ve been doing for years. So, you know, there’s a chapter in the book, choose your Heart. It’s hard to get sober. Is it gonna be harder to not get sober is the question. And so you wanna choose. It’s, and you can use that, you know, I was saying to a parent the other day, it’s hard say to your kid, yeah, it’s hard to put clothes on to go to church. ’cause Kids don’t wanna get dressed sometimes. Right. It’s harder to go to church naked. . AJV (39:05): . CJ (39:06): Right. There’s always a cost. So so just, yeah, I think it’s because it’s hard. And so I think, and that’s what we talk about in recovery is hitting bottom. And I think people, it’s, I’ve heard so many stories over the last 18 years. Everybody’s, when you say enough is enough is looks different for everybody. Mm-Hmm . So it doesn’t need to look like the next person’s. You don’t need to get thrown in jail or get a DUI or any of those things. It can be enough is enough. And you, you know, in your gut, the cost is gonna be greater than not giving it up. Mm-Hmm . And so that would qualify as a bottom. And that’s the time to find people to help you. Because right now, that’s the beautiful thing. We have so many communities online and in person that that can help and that are supportive and that people are joined together with a common goal of being sober. AJV (40:06): Well, I love that honesty and that it’s like, why do people follow up? ’cause It’s hard , right? It’s hard the end. Right. It’s hard. And I think that’s a really honest, powerful, you know, truth. It’s like, yeah, it’s hard, but choose your hard. It’s, it’s hard either way. It’s just which harder are you gonna pick? Now we, we you mentioned dry January that’s when we’re recording this. And so can you give us like two or three quick tips on how can you, if, if you’re listening to this going, yep, I did dry January, and if you haven’t, it’s never too late to start. Doesn’t even matter if it’s the last day of month. But like, what are some quick tips to carry you know, sober curious lifestyle past this dry January? Like how can you keep it going? CJ (40:52): Right. Well start with those questions I just talked about and ask what, write it down too. What, what did January give me? If you made it all the way through January dry, get honest about that and write it down. What did it cost and what did it give me? My guess is if alcohol is a stronghold in your life, that you’re gonna have more benefits that you got out of it. But write it down so you know. Right. And then ask yourself, well, why wouldn’t I wanna carry this on to February? Why wouldn’t I wanna keep doing it? And and knowing that any habit we, the best way to approach it is one day at a time. And so we say that in recovery all the time. And we don’t, we, if we come in and think, I need to be sober like the next guy for the next 20 years, we’ll we’ll panic and run out of the room because who can sink like that? So you just have to be sober right now for today. And maybe it’s not one day at a time, maybe it’s one minute at a time. And so just keep doing that and then do it the next minute and the next minute. . AJV (41:59): Yeah. I think it’s good. It’s like we used to tease, it’s, it’s no different than getting healthy or losing weight. It’s like if you told someone you’re only going to get to eat fo you know, foliage for the rest of your life, people would be like, I’m never doing this. But if you can just be, just focus on eating salad today. Just get a salad for lunch. Just get a salad for dinner and wake up and just do the same thing. It’s like, it’s the difference of like the magnitude of, wait, am I never gonna get to have a cookie again? What do you mean Versus Nope, just pick a salad today. Pick a salad at the meal that you’re at. And it’s, it’s, it’s a lot like that is what I hear you saying. It’s like, just make the choice in the moment and then in the next moment and then in the next moment. AJV (42:40): And I think this is a, a great conversation. I I wanted you to have a time to talk about the book. ’cause I, one of the reasons that we wanted to partner with you in publishing the book is because Rory and I personally resonate with the message of both of us would not identify as someone who had a, a problem with alcohol, but we both identify that it, that it had a strong hold and the way that we were living our daily life both of us were fortunate enough to be able to go, we’re just not doing this anymore. Like, we’re done. But both of us recognized a pattern that we were no longer comfortable with. And it’s like we, yeah, I can only speak for myself, but you know, for those of you who are listening of going like, well, I don’t, I don’t really know if that’s me. AJV (43:24): It’s like, I would maybe have a glass of wine every couple of days, but here, here was the pattern that I noticed. I would always default to a glass of wine on a hard day. And I would also default to a glass of wine on a good day. So if it was a really good day, I wanted to celebrate glass of wine. Mm-Hmm . If it was a really, really hard day, I wanted a, a glass of wine to decompress. Right. What I wasn’t doing is I wasn’t decompressing with God. I wasn’t decompressing with my husband. I wasn’t even talking about it. It was like, Nope, I just wanna go grab his glass of wine and go take a bath. Mm-Hmm . And I realized I was like living in this this isolated environment where it’s like, like I went to the wine and never to the point of ever getting drunk, but it was like, man, this, this is not a healthy default for me anymore. AJV (44:19): It is, it is a negative trend that I can see in my life where as I started giving it up, I noticed it’s like, oh my gosh, they serve mimosas at breakfast, margaritas at lunch, you know, aifs for pre dinner. I was like, oh my gosh, it’s everywhere. And it’s, it was never so recognizable of like, oh man, the access, the accessibility is right. What had created some of the problem of it was there when you celebrate, it’s there and it’s a hard day. It’s there at the sporting event. It’s there, it’s at the adults’ table, at the kids’ party. And it was like, it wasn’t until I just said I can’t have it. It’s a hard no. Right. that I could actually even set limits for myself. CJ (45:00): Right? Yes. I mean, happy, sad matter, glad that’s how we drank. That’s, that’s a saying too. You know, it it, when you start thinking of it as, ’cause you had mentioned it’s hard to give it up, right? And when we start changing our language to what am I gonna gain? Like, we’re gaining all this other stuff, we’re gaining sobriety, and yes, we’re giving something up, but like you just said, it’s, if we think of it that we’re giving something up, we’ll, even subconsciously, we’ll feel sorry for ourselves. We’ll have a little pity party and then that’s really unfair to us because you’re right, it’s everywhere. It’s at the kids’ birthday party, it’s at breakfast. And if we have that mindset, it makes us feel like we’re not disciplined because we can’t partake or like we really don’t wanna have it, but it’s, we feel like we should almost, because it’s everywhere, which is the good news why it’s starting to not be everywhere. Right. But we, we wanna flip that mindset to, yeah, maybe I’m gonna miss out for 20 minutes or an hour or that first hit feeling, but what I’m gaining is so much more and really focus on what we’re gaining not on what is not on what we’re giving up. AJV (46:19): Yeah. I love that. I can’t repeat this enough. It’s like, it’s gonna be hard either way. Choose your heart. Yeah. Yeah. I love, I love that. Y’all I could talk to Chris about this for much longer, but our time is up and I want you guys to know where you can go pick up a copy of this book. So if you go to grace yourself book.com, you can get your pre-ordered copy right now. At the time of the release, there’s just a few weeks left, but very soon, February 18th, you can get your real copy in the mail immediately. Chris, what would you tell to the person who’s like, yep, I’m going to pick up your book. What, what would you wanna tell them and why they need to go do that? CJ (47:04): Well, first thank you and yeah, it, it’s, you are going to gain tools for that will just make you happier, really. Right. It, like I said, it’s, it’s really a book about what you’re gaining not on how to give up one thing. You know, you’re giving up one thing to gain everything and if you, you know, on the flip side, you could lose everything to hang onto that one thing and that’s not what we want. So this book will really reframe your mind to all the way, all the things that you’re gaining and all the things that you want for your life. AJV (47:38): I love that. Again, y’all go check it out, grace yourself book.com, coming to bookstores everywhere, February 18th. Get your copy now. Chris, thank you so much. It was so awesome to have you on. And everyone else who’s listening, stick around the recap episode will be coming up next. We’ll see you next time on the influential Personal brand. CJ (48:00): Thank you.