AJV (00:01): Hey everybody, and welcome to the Influential Personal Brand podcast, AJ Vaden here. And I’m so excited to introduce you guys to a, a newer friend of mine. We got connected through a mutual friend of ours, but I’m most excited to introduce you to our guest today because we share a similar passion of sales. And what we’re gonna talk about today and why you need to stick around is why you are in sales, even if you don’t know it, and why you need to also become passionate about sales. No matter what your role is, no matter what your job is, no matter if your customer facing or internal facing, you’re a solopreneur, entrepreneur, small business owner, executive, or anything in between that I didn’t mention, having sales skills is one of the most important skill that you can have in life. And so we’re gonna talk about why that is. AJV (00:54): How do you develop ’em? How do you use ’em, and why these are important to you. And if none of that sounded appealing enough for you to stick around to the very end, then how about this? Knowing how to be great at sales is what makes you a great entrepreneur. It’s also what makes you a great parent. It’s what makes you a great negotiator, which if you are a parent, you know, is a very important skill set to have. So, like I said, these are life skills. And so we’re gonna jump right in. I’m gonna formally introduce you to Dr. Cindy, who is a two times bestselling author. She’s got two books on sales and we’re gonna put all of these in the show notes for you. But her first book is, every Job is a Sales Job, how To Use The Art of Selling to Win At Work. AJV (01:38): Her second and most recent is Sell Yourself How to Create, live and Sell a powerful personal Brand, which is part of why I wanted to have her on the show here today. She is also the CEO of Orange Leaf Consulting. She also has her doctorate in organizational communication. So this, these are, these aren’t just thoughts and ideas, like this is backed by tons of research and time and experience and expertise. And I could probably go on and on but I wanna jump in and actually do this interview. So before I get carried away with talking about you, let’s talk to you. So, Dr. Cindy, welcome to the show. Dr. C (02:17): Thank you so much for having me, aj. It is a pleasure to be here. AJV (02:21): Yes. And one of the things that I wanna do that I think is just really helpful is to help our idio, our idiots, our audience, get to know you a little bit and why sales has become such a part of your life. So like, where did that come from? How did you get into this and how did, how did you get to where you are today? Dr. C (02:42): kicking and screaming, if I’m being completely honest. So I never wanted to be in sales, believe it or not. And I was a college professor and then started consulting in the summer as many do. Fast forward, went to work at a consulting firm, and about six months into that role, I got put into a sales role. And honestly, aj, I thought I was gonna get fired. I’m like, I can’t do this and I don’t want to do this. I had this idea of sales was this icky thing. It was pushy, it was manipulative. It was like, I, I have this avatar in my head and I call him Tommy two thumbs. It’s like the, Hey, what’s it gonna take kind of guy. And I’m thinking, I cannot sell. Like, I do not wanna sell. I never want to be that. In that role. I realized I was selling my entire life. Dr. C (03:30): I just didn’t call it sales. Hmm. And I literally struck me and I went, wait a second. I have a PhD in communication, and I was never taught this, and I went to good schools. And it was like, why wasn’t this part of the curricula? And so that took me on a totally different journey. Started my company, my first company, orange Leaf Consulting, started writing books. And so, I know you guys believe in this too, is like you deliver to the person that you were like, you’re literally solving the problem that you had. So now I write books for my 20-year-old self . AJV (04:05): Love that. So tell me what, what happened? Like, what was that kind of like revelation moment when you realized, wait, I’ve been doing this my whole life, I just never knew it was sales. Like, what was that? Dr. C (04:19): So I remember I was actually having to go and do what they called the pitch right at the, at the day and time. And I’m like, Ooh, pitch. It just sounds awful. Like the word sounds bad. And what I was preparing, what I was realizing is all I was doing was listing all the problems that I had come up with in the conversations with a prospective client and how I could solve them. And I went, wait a second. All I’m doing is helping them with a need that they have. Why are we even calling this a pitch? I’m not pitching them anything. I’m inviting them to this list of solutions that are literally gonna make their life and their company better. Hold on. Like, hold the phone, . And it was really in that moment where I was delivering that first one by myself that I said, I’ve been doing this for years. Dr. C (05:10): I was calling it negotiation. I was calling it persuasion. I was calling it convincing, I was calling it inviting. And I went, okay, I have to change the script on this. So I believe that sales is a life skill, not a business skill. And I am on a mission to help people to embrace their inner 5-year-old. As I say, you know, we’re all, we were all five. You have got littles, so you understand they’re the best salespeople on the planet. So it’s really just getting back to those innate sales skills that you already have, and then knowing how to use them to get more of what you want and help more people. AJV (05:44): Ugh, I love that. And you know, not to go too sidetracked for a second, but you know, I’ve been in sales my whole life. I consider myself the number one job I still have today, E even as like CEO is to sell, right? That recruiting, selling, interview, selling, retaining, selling client acquisition, selling vendor negotiations, selling contract, negotiate. Like the list goes on and on. It’s like even as a CEO, I feel like still, like the number one thing that I’m trying to hone on a constant basis is this concept of sales IE communication. But where I find it’s the most valuable at this current stage of my life is in my parenting. Like legitimately , I have these like two master negotiators and everything is a negotiation, and they’re relentless and persistent. And I die laughing because it’s like my husband and I who both come from a heavy, heavy, heavy sales background are like, those little suckers are gonna outlast us. , AJV (06:42): Like, like their, their, their per, their persistence is, it’s impressive. It’s impressive. And I tease all the time, I’m like, how can I transfer this level of persistence to like our sales team, like to our, our business development team, this, this level of, there’s no shame in how many times you ask or how repeated the ask is. And I think I, I, I love what you said, it’s like, how do we get all back to that inner 5-year-old? And as I have a 5-year-old, it’s like he knows what he wants and he knows how long it’s gonna take before I crumble, right? And it’s about 45 minutes, and I’m like, fine, you can have it, whatever’s, whatever. But it’s like there something hap along happens along the way, clearly, where we don’t do that anymore. And probably for most of us, just like you had, and I’ve even had these feelings before of like, I don’t wanna be seen as a salesperson. AJV (07:34): There’s this negative connotation with the word sales, with the concept of selling. And I would love to just kind of unpack that for a second of where did that come from? Where does that happen? Because I feel like most people would all agree that you did not grow up saying one day I wanna be a salesperson , even though, even though the majority of co even college graduates will end up in sales. Yeah. Right. So what is it about that thing where it’s not something that we’re pursuing when inevitably no matter what you’re doing, you’re going to be doing something related to sales. So I’d love to hear your thoughts on that. Dr. C (08:15): So I always joke with people and I say, you know, nobody dresses like a salesperson for Halloween, right? . So it’s not, it’s not a, an a job that we aspire to as children. You wanna be a firefighter, you wanna be this, you wanna be that, don’t wanna be a salesperson. But I think part of the reason is because it does have this negative con negative connotation because we have all been sold at some point. We have all gone through that being the person that was sold to where you didn’t really wanna say yes, you kind of felt pressured into it. You feel like your choice was taken away from you. And when that happens, you’ve lost your power and you’ve lost your autonomy. And so I think that’s where people start to get that negative feeling of sales is when we’ve experienced that. But you know this as a sales professional, and so do I, having worked with hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of companies, that is such a minute segment of the sales world. Dr. C (09:13): And I would argue even those people don’t wanna be those people, right? . So they just weren’t trained properly. Mm-Hmm. . So when you look at it, it kind of goes to the lowest common denominator. And I think media and, you know, movies and TV portrays that guy versus really that master negotiator, that person that’s really centered around building trust, helping the other person to get what they need and finding a common solution for both. And I agree with you. I used to be a college professor and I used to tell the students, I’m like, you’re gonna go on a job interview. You have to sell yourself. But it’s funny because that’s such a catchphrase, even before I was in sales and I was sitting here thinking, I hate sales and I’m telling these kids this, but it was selling you. And that’s the first thing. Any job interview you’re selling. And if you’re not thinking about that as an entrepreneur, that pitch, that’s you selling you before you’re selling anything else that you’re offering, they’ve gotta trust you to be able to trust your product or your service, whatever they’re gonna invest in. And I know you believe in that. I know I’m preaching the choir here, but , but it’s so important for people to recognize sales is throughout your entire life and your entire day. And I guarantee you, every listener on today’s podcast has already made successful sales this morning. You just didn’t call ’em sales . AJV (10:40): Yeah. So let’s talk about that for a second. What are the sales that we’re all making every day that we don’t realize are sales? Dr. C (10:48): So first one is, if you’ve got kids , somehow you get them out of bed teeth brushed, and to school with two shoes that match master salesperson right there. miracle sales, if you have Right. Miracle sales. Exactly. If you are negotiating with your spouse or your roommate or who you know your business partner about, who’s gonna cover this and who’s gonna cover that? A colleague, that is a negotiation. That is a sale. Because even if you’re negotiating, like I’m gonna take this project, you take that project, you’re trusting that the other person’s got it, that they’re gonna take that ball and run with it. That’s a sales conversation. Whenever there is an exchange of trust that is sales. And so I think those are things you do all day every day. Even nonverbal sales occur. And I guarantee your listeners have done this today. You’re running to the door, you got your arms full, you make eye contact with that person to hold the door for you, and then y’all smile at each other. That’s a sales exchange. We just don’t call it sales. AJV (11:55): Oh, I love, like, even even the non-verbal exchanges. And I love that concept too, is that sales is just an exchange of trust. Right? And I, I love that concept because it really does take away some of the ickiness that we feel. And, and I know, I bet most of you listening would agree with this. It’s like when you’ve had a great sales interchange, it’s like, I love it. I love when I’m like, man, that was a great sales presentation. ’cause I feel good about it, right? I feel good about the person. I’m entrusting. I feel good about the person I’m paying. I feel good about the product or service I’m receiving. The, the entire experience was positive. And part of it is like, when it’s really good, it’s like, yeah, I want my money to go to you. That was great. And I think sometimes when I’m annoyed, it’s like I’m almost more mad that I have to give the bad sales experience. AJV (12:49): I have to give that person my money, even though I need the thing. I’m like, I do not want you to get paid for this. ’cause That was so bad. Like, and regardless if that’s good or bad, like a lot of my mentality is around like, I do not want to pay you it, it’s a, it’s a you thing even when I need it. Because I’m like, that was so, so bad, so bad. Yeah. And the opposite happens too, where it’s like, man, that was amazing. ’cause You know what? It just felt, it felt natural. And that’s how it, it should, right? And we have those daily exchanges every day. It’s like you know, it doesn’t matter if you’re carrying boxes or a stroller or whatever, it’s, yeah. It’s like those nonverbal exchanges happen. Those are like micro sales throughout your day. And so this whole concept of, you know, we’re selling all day long without even knowing it. How do we come more aware of these things? ’cause I know like one of the things you talk about how like sales skills are life skills, right? So it’s like, I think a part of that is the awareness that, okay, guys, we’re already in sales and our marriages and our friendships and our parenting and our jobs and our, our social interactions, like there, there’s a sale always happening. So how do we kind of reframe how we see that, become aware of it and then ultimately embrace it? Dr. C (14:13): So I think it’s kind of like the blue car syndrome where, you know, once you buy a blue car, you start noticing blue cars everywhere, . So it’s the same kind of thing. Once you recognize a good sale, you start seeing that. And not only do you start seeing it, you almost start seeking it. And so back to your comment about like, you, you don’t want to give that salesperson your money because it feels awful and you don’t wanna reward bad behavior . But the flip side of that is absolutely true too. And I know everybody listening has gone to a store or a restaurant and you, you choose that just because of the experience you had. You want to reward the good sales experience, but you didn’t think about it like that. You probably thought about it as service. You probably thought about it as, oh, it was a good experience. Dr. C (15:00): That was a sale. They sold you on coming back and they sold you on being an advocate for them because you left feeling so good. You wanna go tell other people. So when you start to think of sales as that, you start recognizing it differently. But I do believe that it’s good to have a plan. I’m a planner, I’m a hyper planner, I’m a to-do list gal. It’s just my jam. But I think when you have a plan for the things that you want to occur, you’re gonna seek the opportunity to sell, to get closer to it. Mm-Hmm. So for example, take a personal one. You’re looking for a new sitter, okay? You’re gonna be hyper aware when you hear other parents talking about their sitters and you’re gonna jump in and have a conversation. It’s just because you had that plan in place. If you’re an entrepreneur and you’re looking for a website designer, you’re still seeking that. And then you’re gonna find an opportunity to have a sales exchange to somebody either send you a referral or you’re able to sell your way into getting that person to work with you. And by the way, even when you’re hiring a vendor, you’re selling them just as much as they’re selling you. And I think we forget that as well. So I think that once you know what you’re looking for and you have a goal and a plan in place, those sales moments start revealing themselves differently. AJV (16:22): So, and, and I love that. And it’s like, what would you say? Like, as I’m thinking of, you know, I’m just thinking of like the, the micro example of just the team that we have here at Brand Builders Group. We have client facing team members, we have non-client facing team members, we have a leadership team. We, we got all types, we got vendors, contractors, all the things, right? And so if I were to kind of pinpoint what are some of like the universal sales skills that every person, no matter what your role is, no matter what your job is, whatever your daily things are, like, what would you say that you’ve identified as some of like the universal sales skills that we as just humans need to develop to be better communicators? Dr. C (17:04): So the first one is, is your authenticity of who you are, your own personal brand, and who you are bringing yourself to the, to the world and what your superpowers are In that as well, you get to know people based on their own superpowers. You’re the person I’m gonna go to because I know you’re gonna get the job done fast. You’re the one I’m gonna go to because I know that you can take it and run with it and make it happen. You start to sell into that, right? So that’s the first one is knowing your own personal brand and being really authentic because that’s how you build trust with those around you. I, I say this all the time. Nobody does this life alone. Show me a person that did it by themselves. And I’m gonna show you 14 people that helped ’em along the way, . Dr. C (17:44): And so it’s recognizing how you’re creating those exchanges of trust so that you can get closer to what you need in your role, whether it’s client facing or behind the scenes, whether you’re in a support position or you’re an independent contractor, it doesn’t matter. You’re selling those exchanges of trust so that you can get your project, your job done, get closer to your goals. That’s the first one. Second universal one is you have to ask . And you know this in your sales training background, even seasoned sales froze where it says it on their business card and on their signature line, they don’t ask. So, AJV (18:23): So true. Dr. C (18:24): You have to know what you’re asking for and you have to be clear because if you’ve built that trust, people wanna help you. You wanna go back and reward that behavior. You want to support people, but they don’t know how to support you. So you have to invite them in . AJV (18:41): I mean, just, I don’t wanna like derail your thought train here ’cause I wanna hear the rest, but it’s so interesting because we are in the process right now of, of building a new home and I’ve been interviewing lots of different things. And anyhow, I’ve been having this interchange back and forth via email, and I’m not exaggerating. Literally this morning I had to send an email. So like what’s the next step? Like how do , I mean, it’s like, there’s been so much communication. I’m literally like, so like, how do I buy here? Like what, what, what do I need to do here? And I literally was like, what do I need to do to get this moving? And it’s amazing how often, and it’s been going on for like, what, a week and a half. And I’m just like, listen, at some point I’m just so frustrated that we’re still in this same kind of like hamster wheel of talking about it. Like I just, I’m ready to go on to the next step here. Like, are we, what are we doing here? And I’m the one who had to engage that as the potential customer. Dr. C (19:41): Awful. And so, and so, actually, funny enough, that’s the third piece is you have to follow up. It’s on you to be the one to f So the fact that you had to follow up like that makes me so upset because it’s like you had that person right there ready and you didn’t ask and you didn’t follow up. And so the key to think about it is you as the person selling, are doing 90% of the lift. Mm-Hmm. , that’s the way to look at it, is you’re doing 90% of the lift. Make it easy for them to know exactly what it is that needs to happen, exactly how they can help you exactly what you want them to do, and literally show them the path. It’s like when people ask for reviews and they’re like, oh, please review us on our website, Uhuh, here’s the link. Please say words like this. We would love to hear it . And please be honest. Like, you make it so simple so that they’re not having to chase you. And so that’s, that’s the other thing is you have to follow up. And that’s actually step five of the sales process I teach is follow up and be grateful. Be grateful for that opportunity. AJV (20:43): Yeah. And I think that’s a, I mean, just telling people, right? It’s like asking and then telling people what to do. And that’s one of the things that I’ve always said, it’s like for most people, they just need to be told what to do, right? Click here, write this, say this. Right? It’s like, like even me sometimes I’m like, I don’t want to have to think in this process that that’s why you’re here. Right? Yeah. I don’t wanna have to go through all of that. I just want you to do it, which is why I’m gonna give you my money, right? And so if I’m often left to my own vices, I just, I I I’m gonna, I’m gonna forget, right? It’s not anything other than as soon as this interaction, this exchange is over, I’m off to my other set of 99 things that I’ve gotta do. And if I didn’t have clear instructions from you on what is the next step and when is the deadline and when I’m, you know, like all the things Mm-Hmm. . It’s not that I wasn’t interested, so I forgot. Dr. C (21:40): Yeah. AJV (21:41): And so Dr. C (21:41): I think entrepreneurs, yeah. Oh, I’m sorry, say that again. AJV (21:44): I was like, just, just the whole idea of like, don’t forget to ask and then don’t forget to tell ’em what to do and then follow up. Yeah. I think that that’s, Dr. C (21:53): It’s so hard for entrepreneurs too, I think when they’re building their brand and when they’re getting themselves out there because they have this feeling that, but everybody knows what I do. Everybody knows that I wrote a book, everybody knows I wanna be a keynote speaker. Everybody knows these things. But did you make it easy for them to help, you know, if you’ve got a friend that’s, you know, part of an association and when you wanna go speak there, do they have your speaker bio? Do they know the topics? Can they literally deliver it to the education committee with an open line email that says, Hey, I’m so and so and I speak on engineering and here’s what it is. You know, make it super easy for those people around you to be able to sell for you as well. And that, that’s another piece too, where I think we have to recognize we’re not just selling ourselves, but others are selling for us and with us. Dr. C (22:44): And so they need to know your network needs to know what they’re supposed to be doing as well. And advocating and saying, you do a great job, or you give good service, is sort of like, yeah, you, you made it into the game, , it’s not, it’s not enough. They need to have a story to tell everybody that comes in contact with you is a walking, talking commercial for you. What story are they saying? Let’s invite them to tell the story you want them to be telling. And that’s also a sales exchange. When they are storytelling about you, they’re selling you. So making sure they’ve got good stories. AJV (23:20): Yeah. And it’s, again, back to left to their own devices. It’s like, who knows what people say, right? Yeah. And it’s like, we’ve got to go, this is how you introduce me. This is, this is the story I want you to tell. And as you were talking, you got me thinking about this, this asking thing because I think as you were talking about, I had like said to you gotta ask like, you, you gotta do it. Why don’t people do that? Like what, what what have you found is the hesitation, the lack of awareness whether it be fear or just sometimes complete unawareness or lack of training. But there, there’s a huge amount of people who even self-identify a salespeople that their hardest thing is the ask. Dr. C (24:07): It’s so true. And I think it’s a couple of things. I think you mentioned a few of them, which is they don’t know that, you know, there’s this assumption that, but you know what I do? Of course, you know what I do. Like why wouldn’t you, you know, use my services or come to my restaurant? So that’s one. Second one is they don’t know how to ask. So that’s a lack of training. And the third one is, and we all know it, it’s the fear of no. And it’s that fear of, if you tell me no, my entire world is going to crumble aj, it’s gonna be awful and nothing’s ever gonna happen, . It’s like, no, no is a perfectly acceptable response. And I, you know, this in your sales training background and, and what we teach our clients too is that’s a gift. Because if it’s a no, that’s an exploration. Dr. C (24:49): You get to understand why it’s no. Was your pitch bad? Did you not do a good job of understanding their needs? Did you not do a good job of differentiating yourself? Were you unclear on what the path was going to be that was gonna make their life better after the sale? Were you unclear in your ask? You know, there’s a lot of things that go into that. But the key is, if you’re not focused as the salesperson on what’s on the other side of the sale, then the no feels like, oh, I’m gonna crumble. Hmm. You gotta be focused on what happens past that for them and for you. And if it’s a no, it’s a gift because you also get to decide whether you’re gonna keep chasing them or not. And I have this conversation literally at least once a week with anybody we’re coaching about stop falling in love with people’s potential , you know? And you do that. It’s like, oh, but if, if, if no, believe them. If they are not taking action, there’s a reason for that. So explore it. Get ’em to tell you yes or no, and move on with your life. You are not gonna run out of prospects. There’s 7 billion people on this planet. You got plenty . Amen. AJV (26:03): Yeah. And so, yeah, so I wanna dive into that deeper too, because I totally agree with you. And, and as someone who has spent the last 20 years in sales in some capacity, like, one of the things that I definitely in the early days I, I loved hearing, let me think about it. Or maybe because I was like, there’s hope, there’s hope, , you know, and it, it felt, it felt good to not be rejected. Yeah. But as the months and years went on, I became to go, this is nonsense. I mean, I’ve been following up with you for months and it’s like, I remember like in the early years of my sales career who I would just be like, yes. They said maybe . Right? I was so happy just to not get a hardcore no. I would be like, but I remember months into my very first, you know, kind of like, you know, venture into entrepreneurship and my, my job all day every day was cold calling, literally out of the yellow pages. AJV (26:58): I’m not exaggerating. And me and my three business partners, we divided ’em up and they gave me WX, y, and Z of the alphabet. I didn’t know any better. So we’ll just say that was a gift. The naivete was a gift of this horrible set of letters. And one of the things I just remember, it’s like about eight or nine months in, it was like, I, I’m an obsessive OCD user of color coding and outlook and purple meant follow up. And I would have all these like micro 15 minute segments of like, and I, and here’s what I started to realize. I was like, I have no time to do anything else. All I’m doing is following up. And then I would just move it three months ahead, move it three months ahead. And so finally I started realizing these maybes aren’t aren’t so good after all. AJV (27:43): And it was like probably like a year, year and a half into my sales career. And I was like, no, actually no really is a gift. No is a gift that allows me the permission to move on and not get caught up in this emotional thing of, man, I have been following up with you with dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. And it’s like, no, I don’t have to do that anymore. I just need to go find someone who would say yes. But I was so consumed with following up with the maybes that I was never actually doing a great job at finding the people who were a great fit. And when you realize that nos are not rejection their protection, and it’s like, hey, it’s like if you’re gonna spend all your time with people who are actually never even gonna get back to you you’re never able to actually serve the people who need what you have, who want what you have that you can build relationships with, friendships with, because you’re just stuck in this email cycle that actually is going nowhere. AJV (28:39): And so there is a lot of power in what you said of no being a gift, so that you can move on. And what I’d love to hear from you, and I, and I bet what a lot of people struggle with is what needs to happen in our brains for no to become a gift? ’cause There is this fear of rejection, there is this fear of no, and, and honestly for most of us, it, it’s what stops us from ever starting. And so I would love to just kind of hear your thoughts as we’re kind of like, you know, approaching almost the end of our conversation. I think this is one of the most powerful things that can really help people embrace this concept of, well, how do we overcome this fear of no. Dr. C (29:22): So the first thing is I really believe that a full pipeline will set you free. Hmm. So it’s about not falling in love with the 10 prospects, but falling in love with the entire yellow pages of X, Y, Z, not page 72 . So love that. So that’s the first one is you have to cast a wide enough net. And also it’s not taking it personal because you have to think about all of the magical stars that have to align for any sale to occur. Even that nonverbal sale of that person holding the door while you’re carrying boxes. Y’all had to arrive in your cars at the same time in the parking lot. You picked up the boxes, your pace of walking was exactly the same, to the point where they were three steps ahead of you and they turned their head and you locked eyes and they held the door. Dr. C (30:12): Mm-Hmm, . Okay. Cosmic connection right there. So even when there is not money exchanged, there is trust. And it is the things that go into making that sale occur. So when you think about all the stuff that has to happen for an actual business sale to occur, maybe those stars just didn’t align today. Let’s understand which one was out of alignment, and do you have any control over it? Could you have done something different? Could you have put that star into alignment so the next time it does work? So I think that’s the, the first part about it. And it is not personal. We have to remember that, that no is not about you. It is about the offering of the day. And we never know what’s happening in their world. And even if you, you know, ask somebody to pick up your kids or Hey, can you water my plants when I’m out of town? Dr. C (31:07): We don’t know what’s happening in their world. We don’t know why. The answer’s no unless we find out. But it’s not about you. It’s actually about them and about what’s going on with them. And so when you let that go, then it actually frees you up to go and seek the people. You can help more impactfully. Because remember, if you stay in that moment of no and push them, that becomes the icky sale. We don’t wanna be them. So that’s kind of freeing in that regard where it’s like, okay, that’s a no. Let me understand. Thank you so much for your time. Appreciate you, and you move on to somebody that you really want to help and wants your help. And I think if you reframe it that way, it’s great. And then this is something I do at my workshops where I always ask the group, I’m like, okay, who’s ever been told no in your life? Dr. C (31:55): And, you know, every hand goes up and I think y’all survived. Yay. You didn’t melt still here, like . And so we have to remember that we have literally been told no all our lives and we didn’t die. Nothing happened. And so one thing that I do with newer salespeople, especially if they’re cold calling, is I tell ’em to gamify it. Yeah. Get as many nos as you can today and keep going because you’re gonna recognize it’s not about you. And you’ll start to see those patterns and then you can sort of change your strategy if need be. But the biggest thing is it’s not about you. It’s about the fact that the universe did not align in that moment, in that day for that sale to occur. Doesn’t mean it’s not gonna happen down the road. AJV (32:41): No, I love that. And I, I love what you said too, is that a full pipeline will set you free. It’s like when you have so many people to get to next, this one is not as, you know, life consuming. Right? And I think that’s a huge, and I think that’s a really important element. Like we brought earlier there’s 7 billion people on planet Earth, roughly 365 ish million people in the United States. There’s lots of people to call . There’s lots of people to prospect. There’s lots of people out there. And Mo for most of us, it’s like we couldn’t even handle hundreds of clients. Most of us are looking for dozens. And if you really put it in that context, it’s like, I, I think we gotta like reshape and reform our perception on the attitude of abundance, right? And I think when you do that and it’s like, and here’s the next 20 people and here’s the next 20 people, it becomes a lot less you know, consuming when you’ve got a full pipeline. AJV (33:45): And I love what you said too about this whole idea of like, no is research. And it’s like the more nos you get, the more research you have, the more answers you have, the better you can equip yourself to cover it next time. And those are just like mindset shifts that are so powerful, no matter again, what your role is, customer service, sales, leadership, executive team, parent, whatever. Of like, yeah, like every one of those is research. So I love that. This has been so helpful. And I’ve got one last question that I wanna dive into and then I’ll let you go before we run out of time completely. You talk about this whole thing of the like unofficial sale. And I’d love for you just to kinda like, share with everyone, like, what is the unofficial sale? Dr. C (34:31): So the unofficial sale is the one that you’re making every single day, but you’re not even realizing you’re doing it. I call it kind of the, hey, by the way, sale. And it is that nonverbal exchange a lot of times, but it’s also the one where it’s so natural for you and it’s such an opportunity for both people to get something out of it that it just feels right. You have these all day every day where it’s, you know, you’re negotiating who’s gonna pick up the littles or who’s gonna feed the dog? Who’s gonna take the dog out? Who’s gonna do the laundry? That’s the home piece. At work. It’s the same thing. It’s the, you’re gonna make the copies and you’re actually gonna go ahead and send that email and you’re gonna do this. It’s that quick exchange where it’s just so casual. But look at it as a sales win. Dr. C (35:17): Because the more you start identifying those as a sales win, it builds your confidence of a sales person. I believe every job is a sales job. I believe you have to sell yourself. They’re not just the names of books like I really do believe this, but embrace your inner five-year-old and recognize that these casual sales are also your opportunity to truly sell yourself. So for example, let’s say that you’re at a community barbecue block party and somebody is talking about needing your services. If you’re not ready to bring that up in that moment and you’re not ready with what you wanna say to differentiate yourself, they cannot become an advocate for you. Mm-Hmm. . So it goes back to you being ready to tell your story as well as building that trust and really getting those exchanges in order so that they become that walking, talking commercial. AJV (36:10): Oh, I love that. Be ready. Never know. Be ready. Dr. C (36:14): You, AJV (36:14): You’re gonna run into that next potential client. And I do, I believe that’s so true. It’s like inline at Starbucks grocery store, t-ball game. It’s like, be ready and be aware. And I want those kind of concepts of the unofficial sale. And this is one, I feel like this whole time I’ve been having flashbacks to like all my different sales experiences, and I love these conversations. ’cause I feel like most people who are listening would not consider themselves salespeople. And that is something that I hope as you’re listening today, you leave this going, no, I am a salesperson and I need to embrace that. I need to learn it. I need to, you know, educate myself and I need to become aware of all of these sales moments that are around me every single day. And so I thought this was an amazing conversation. I hope that people continue this conversation. So, Dr. Cindy, if people wanna connect with you, follow you buy your books, where should they go Dr. C (37:12): For cindy.com, D-R-C-I-N-D y.com or orange leaf consulting.com and I’m on all the social media platforms at one St. Lady of Sales, and I love to hear how people take this and do something with it. My favorite thing in the morning is when I get up and I see social media and somebody says, I heard you on this podcast, or I read this part of your book and I did this and it worked. And I love that. So I want to hear those success stories that just, it fuels the mission more of helping more and more people. And when you become a salesperson, guess what? You’re gonna help somebody else to become a salesperson too. And I think that’s the way we bring our amazing superpowers to the world, is we help elevate each other. AJV (37:53): Amen. I could not agree more. I’ll put all of those links in the show notes. Dr. Cindy, so amazing having you. So many golden nuggets, so thoroughly enjoyed this conversation and you guys heard it. Learn more, stay in touch with her. Go to dr cindy.com, follow her on socials, check out more and embrace that inner sales person that is already within you. We’ll see you next time on the Influential Personal Brand. Bye guys.