RV (00:07): Hey brand builder, Rory Vaden here. Thank you so much for taking the time to check out this interview as always, it’s our honor to provide it to you for free and wanted to let you know there’s no big sales pitch or anything coming at the end. However, if you are someone who is looking to build and monetize your personal brand, we would love to talk to you and get to know you a little bit and hear about some of your dreams and visions and share with you a little bit about what we’re up to to see if we might be a fit. So if you’re interested in a free strategy call with someone from our team, we would love to hear from you. You can do that at brand builders, group.com/pod call brand builders, group.com/pod call. We hope to talk to you soon. AJV (00:53): Hey everyone. And welcome to another episode on the influential personal brand. This is a J Vaden here. I’m one of your co-hosts. And today is super special. I always love it when I get to interview people that I actually work with. And so let me introduce you to Matt white. I’m gonna give you a little bit of his formal bio in just a second, but Matt and I have been friends for a really long time, but I became a client of Matt’s like what, three years ago? Mm-Hmm almost three years. And so I get to both speak on a friend and personal side, as well as on a, a professional client side. And you’ll get to learn a little bit about what Matt does, but I think the most interesting thing that you need to know about Matt is that he is the father to the coolest little kid named Salla, who my oldest child Jasper thinks hung the moon. AJV (01:47): And so that’s actually the coolest thing that you need to know about Matt is that he is dad of Salla, but okay, let me give you a little bit of his professional bio. Matt is a trusted advisor and a culture index consultant to CEOs at fast growing companies around the world. So if you’ve never heard of culture index one, you’re gonna learn a lot about it today. But you might be familiar with programs out there like engram or disk or Myers Briggs, and there’s a lot of things out there, but I think can be somewhat confusing. And here’s why our company brand builders group decided to partner up with Matt and use the culture index is it’s not a personality profile. And I think sometimes for me, at least culture index can be a little bit. What would I say? AJV (02:40): Not as well of a description as what it is, cuz it’s not about culture in your company, right? This is about finding the right culture of the position that you’re looking for and matching it with what is someone’s natural skill sets like their God-given talents, like who they are and how can you fit that to match the actual needs, the requirements of a position. And so Matt has been leading this endeavor at brain builders group. He does it with tons of clients around the. AJV (03:11): country. He happens to be located here in our hometown of Nashville, Tennessee. But today as a business leader, an entrepreneur, a leader of any kind or even if you’re just trying to lead a person of one this is the conversation for you. So you wanna stick around, we’re gonna talk about the culture index assessment, the profile but more importantly, how do you find higher and retain the best talent for your company? So that was the longest introduction ever, ever without what a good one. A good one. Please welcome Matt to the show. So while you’re here, thanks for being here. MW (03:48): Excited. Yeah. I’m excited. Thanks for the opportunity. AJV (03:51): Yeah, I’m so happy about this, so, okay. So tell people a little bit about how did you get into this? Cause you did not start as a culture index consultant working with CEOs. That’s not where you started. So I give our audience just a little bit of background about how you got to where you are. MW (04:08): Yeah. So I’ll act, I’ll go all the way back to college. So I was, I came outta college with a finance degree and I went straight into college ministry. And so a lot of people don’t know that, but I was actually in college ministry until I was 31. And so when I was 30, the first few years, and this is important to one of the things that you touched on about leading yourself was especially in your late twenties and or twenties and thirties, like it’s really about self discovery. And so early on in ministry, I was doing things that were right in my gifting and wiring and it was really fun. But then as it changed, I got kind of bored over time. And when I was 30, I realized my future was not vocational ministry. So then I was like, well, I’m behind the eight ball because I’ll be competing for jobs with people who are six and seven years younger than me. MW (04:55): So cuz I have no business experience. And so thankfully I been a member of a gym in Birmingham, Alabama that had just started one of my teammates from college kept recruiting me to come there and try it out. And I ended up going on staff with that startup and because it just really provided the, what I thought was the best opportunity for me to get a crash course in business because I had no business acumen. I just been doing whatever I wanted to do in ministry. And so I joined that when I turned 31 and then a year later became a partner, we franchised it. And so it was a fantastic environment to really learn like the ins and outs of business. I was studying under some great leaders and just cut my teeth in business that way. MW (05:40): And then in that process we scaled rapidly. And a few years in, we just didn’t see the growth that we thought we should have out of some of the other partners in the business, long story short, we were introduced to culture index. And so we actually became a client my last year there. And so, and it was kind of the same thing too with ministry. Like when I was starting out with the fitness, a lot of the things that I were, I was doing like opening gyms and leadership were really fun. And then some of my role changed by the nature of the growth of the business. And I just became less and less fulfilled in it. And so you know, as AJ mentioned, when we bring a client on, we train them for two days in how to interpret this data and mobilize it to fix the issues in the business and scale. MW (06:31): And so on the way out of the, the workshop that I was in as a client, I called the founder of culture index and said, Hey, my name’s Matt white. I wanna become your next licensee. What do I need to do? And so I became a licensee on the side while I was still doing fitness and you know, cause all of my eggs were in the basket of the fitness business, but then over time I just saw and I was just wrestling internally. I was working with my best friends in the business, but the actual work I was doing just wasn’t out of my skill. It wasn’t in my skillset. I wasn’t passionate about it. And I’d been reading the book of Ecclesiastes and six times in 12 chapters, Solomon says there’s nothing better for a person than that. He or she should eat, drink and find enjoyment in their toil. And it just hit me. And I was like, so I don’t care how much money I make. If I don’t enjoy what I’m doing, I don’t wanna do it. You know, the reality is we spend 70,000 hours of our lives at work. And so I decided to take a leap and move to Nashville and start culture index. And that’s how I got started. AJV (07:33): Ugh. I love that. And I think there’s so much brilliance in some of this for everyone listening of just remembering it’s like your path is gonna take different journeys and leaning into that and realizing I’m I know this is where I started, but that’s not where I wanna go. And that’s okay. I think so many of us try to like stick it out and make it work. And it’s like, why punish yourself? Like why punish yourself? Because you’re too afraid to go out and do something that you feel called to do. And I mean, it’s like, I mean, I think you’re probably the happiest now you’ve ever been. I don’t know. That’s just saying as an outsider looking in, but MW (08:15): 100%, 100%, because again, we spend so much of our lives at work, especially as entrepreneurs and business owners, and this is your baby and this is your passion. And I’m, I, it doesn’t feel like work to me. And sometimes people like, you know, my friends and I’m hanging out at like nine o’clock at night and they’re like, Hey, let’s look at this profile and I’m sorry, I’m you’re talking about profile. I’m like, no, I love this stuff. And I also believe like, you know, in any business, I believe the most important thing in any business is your human capital. Yeah. Right. Like the greatest leading indicator of P and L performance in the business is your human capital. And so that’s where I get passionate about. It’s like not to mention the fact that as leaders, you, you will have massive amounts of opportunity to influence for better or worse the lives of the people that work for you. Yeah. And in my opinion, our cap depends on our ability to lead other people. AJV (09:10): Hmm that’s so MW (09:11): I just always wanna be a you know, a student of the game of leadership. AJV (09:16): I love that. And this is such a great transition too. And before we, we hit record, we were having just a brief, you know, conversation. And I know there’s so much discussion right now, out in the marketplace, around the topic of the great resignation. Right. And if you’re not watching, I’m doing funny ears when I say the great resignation because I, I don’t really know if that’s what it is. And then I read this article a couple of weeks ago by Ariana Huffington. And I thought this was a great re explanation of that. And I love what she said. And she said, it’s not so much, this is the great resignation. It’s more of a great reevaluation and people are taking a step back and going, man, I don’t love what I’m doing. Why not? And how do I get to do something that I love? AJV (10:05): And maybe it’s people environment, culture, environment, but what if it’s just the job itself? It’s like, you feel like you’re not wired to be doing what you’re doing and you’re pushing, right. Instead of like having that natural pull that’s easier. Mm-Hmm . And so it’s one of the reasons why I wanted to have you on, because it’s such a hot topic. I cannot tell you how many people in the brain builders group, community and our social audience and our offline audience and my friend group and my family group in our own company where we’re going, man, it’s like, how do we find attract, hire and retain the right person? And interviews are such a tricky thing because everyone is trying to put their best foot forward in an interview. I mean, it’s like people are trained to interview well, right? Hopefully it’s like, you’re trying to get the job, but I think it’s interesting sometime as the individual, we’re trying to get a job that we don’t even want that we’re not even built for. AJV (11:03): We don’t even have the skills for it. And it just it’s mindboggling to me sometimes of going, why are people trying to do this when they don’t, they’re not gonna be good at it. And mm-hmm , those were all these kind of like aha moments that we had after becoming your clients and being clients of culture index. And so here’s kind of where I wanna take this conversation for all of our listeners is one, help us understand how the culture index assessment is different from an Enneagram or a disc or a Myers Briggs. So let’s start there and then we’re gonna kind of get into the weeds on like how as employers we can use a tool like this to improve ourselves. And I’ll tell you guys right now Matt has included a link for everyone listening where if you’ve never heard of culture index and if you’ve never taken it this is really unique. It’s different than a typical personality profile. But I’m gonna put the link in the show notes. And so you get to go and you get to take that test and you get to get your assessment report back for free. So thank you to Matt. So just make sure you pop over and get the show notes and grab that link. So you can take this for yourself, but okay. So tell us, how is culture index different? MW (12:14): Okay, I’m gonna keep it really simple. So if you’re a business owner or, or not a business owner, you’re leading a team and you you’re part of a business. If your business is not using psychometrics, you’re behind the eight ball because most people are. And so when I say psychometrics, basically, we’ve got the technology now in the research with psychometric, all psychometrics is, is you’ve got psychology and math and they get together and have a baby. And now we actually have data on what will this human being do when nobody’s looking. And when they’re under pressure, in other words, you naturally do who you are, right? And you you’ve talked about the interview process. It’s like when you’re, when you’re interviewing people, it’s simply a sales pitch. And if I need a job, I can convince you, certain profiles are better at convincing others, right? MW (13:05): So you, most people are going into interviews and they’re making these very expensive decisions off of subjective information, which is their experience with that person or their track record, which the assumption is what you did over here at this company is the exact same thing with the exact same leadership as what you would be getting here in my company, which is hardly ever the case back to culture index. So there’s really two things you gotta look at when you’re looking at psych psychometrics is what’s the statistical reliability of that instrument. So in other words, how, if we go back to human capital, if that’s the greatest leading indicator of P and L performance in your business, how accurate and valid do you want the data to be that you’re using to make these decisions that will influence the P and L statement? Yeah. So you gotta look at statistical reliability. MW (13:58): I can’t speak for any of Graham and all of those others because I, I’m not a practitioner of those. I do know that culture index has an internal or a statistical reliability of 0.9. So 90% of the time it is spot on. Now we can get into why that is part of it has to do with the design. This is a free choice checklist versus a versus a forced choice. So anytime you force a human being to choose one of four or one of six options, it will negatively impact the reliability of it. Mm. So one it’s, it’s, whatever you’re using, you gotta look at, does it really measure what it says? It measures the second thing though, and I think it’s actually the bigger draw is there’s only about 65 culture index licensees in the country and what we hang our hat on is radical candor and the strategic ability of the advisor to lean into CEO. MW (14:52): When I understand where your three and five year goals are and give you very candid, blunt feedback about the people you’ve chosen to bring around you and whether or not you will hit those top and bottom line goals in the next three to five years. I mean, I’ve, I’ve been on multiple demos this morning with client, with prospects in Alabama and Georgia, and we’re pulling up and we’re talking about for one example, a construction company, you know, 150 employees and they have their, their linchpin in their business is the project manager overseeing these construction. And they had eight of them. And I’m literally able to say, okay, this one’s worth $2 million. And this one is costing you $2 million. Interesting. And I don’t have to, I don’t have to guess, cuz I ask them, what do they need outta that role? And they say, I need X, X, X, X. And I say, okay, well, how much of your time do you spend telling this person what to do and having to follow up with them because they don’t follow through? Hmm. I spend a lot of time and I say, okay, how much is that worth? Cause for the CEO, the two biggest problems I fix for our CEOs time and money. AJV (15:55): Yeah. You know, it’s I love that you say that, cause you’ve done this we’ve had this conversation many times and you just go, horrible idea. Never hire this person. so I appreciate the blood MW (16:09): Candidate. Well, and, and, and I I’ll say this too. You, you talked about culture index, so we don’t measure character values, integrity. We also don’t. We also don’t want measure what somebody’s passionate about. Okay. And so we don’t measure good. Is this a good or a bad human, but it’s like this. And we talk about culture because that’s a buzzword, right. Everybody wants a strong culture. And then if I said to one of you owners or entrepreneurs on this call, if you ever, ever seen the movie Rudy, right. If you haven’t, you ought watch it. It’s, it’s a classic, but it’s about a guy who is just passionate about Notre Dame football. And he believes Irish and he played football in college. So he studied it. He had a lot of experience. He knew the ins and outs. And then he got to walk on at Notre Dame and he had more grit, more passion, more drive, more work ethic than probably every other athlete on the team. But Rudy was five foot 10. And if you started Rudy with all the grit and passion and heart and experience at five foot 10 going against a six foot five competitor, statistically he’ll lose nine out of 10 times. And then when you put a square peg in a round hole, I don’t care. What values are up on the wall when your team loses eventually a losing program has a terrible culture regardless of the values. AJV (17:27): Yeah. You know, I, what, I, I think one of the things that both as a entrepreneur CEO, but then also as a, as a client, one of the things that I’ve gotten really in tune with is that a lot of people can do the job. It’s just, how quickly are they gonna burn out doing it? Hmm. And that was like a really good insight that I picked up from our work together and using this is, yeah. I mean, you could force someone into doing this and they could probably do it, but for how long before they go, I’m exhausted. This is so hard. I’m not happy. And the, what I love about this as a business owner is I know what I need out of these positions. And it’s so hard to determine that by looking at a resume or social media, or even doing an interview, I, I mean, we do shadow days. AJV (18:18): We do call audit. We do all these things to help other people get to know like, this is what the business is gonna be about. But at the end of the day, those are really high level samples. And to what you said earlier, it’s like, I need to know, is this person gonna love doing it and be good at doing it when I’m not around? And I think that is a really important thing. And so I’d love to hear your perspective of, you know, this great resignation or great reevaluation in terms of, for business owners. It’s like, how do we get around this? Mm-Hmm like, how do we use tools like this? Or even if you don’t have a tool like this to better equip your company of going, it’s about finding the, the match, right? And culture and values is a part of that passion, but it’s other, like, you gotta have someone who’s gonna love the job and how do we do that? MW (19:09): Hmm. Okay. Couple of thoughts. With two case studies from different clients here in Nashville, one is in a service business construction, and one is a and one is a social entrepreneur. They produce footwear, leather goods, things like that. Okay. So we’ll talk about the service business first, not a glorious industry. right. Very few people come outta college and say, I wanna go dig ditches. Yeah. This client I have here found this one profile 22 years old, just graduated college. And he’s got the right culture index profile for the future leadership position that this my client needs. So he takes a risk. This guy has zero experience, 22 he’s 23. Now he’s been on a year and he is literally grooming him up to take over the business. Hmm. Now, not yet, but it’s like, he’s showing all the right signs now. It’s very important to note, I can’t measure work ethic. AJV (20:10): Yeah. MW (20:11): You know, like, and you can’t tell from the dots whether or not somebody’s gonna like cheat or steal . Okay. but in that case, like there’s a 22 year old in construction that needed a job. He has the right dots. The key is he didn’t just put him in, say, dig ditches. He understood what motivated that person. And what motivated that 22 year old was opportunity to control my future. And he saw this, he threw challenges at him where meanwhile, I was just having a conversation with him last night. He said, this guy has gotten multiple job offers from competitors. And he, and he told my CEO, he said, I’m staying with you because I think you can help me get where I want to go. Mm. So when you talk about the insight to know what makes people drive, there’s three primary motivational drives in a human, and this is not culture index. MW (20:56): Although we measure these, this is from another article I read by Harvard it’s, every human being has a need to achieve the need for relationship and the need. For some level of knowledge and expertise, we just happen to measure. Those are our three primary motivational drives. And so when you can get the talent or not talking about how to go find it, but like the talent’s coming to you where you’re getting applicants like that, you have an advantage when I already know what makes that person tick. And I help them see their future in my company. The other one though, is from the client with a social enterprise. And they, they have, they are inundated with applicants, like just so many that is because of the mission and the cause of the business. Right. And so I think there’s multiple things in there as one, when you talk about the great resignation, I agree with that. It’s a reevaluation because people are gonna have to work. Yeah. Right. They can’t sit at home forever, but like when we, as leaders can learn how to take the talent and inspire and motivate and more importantly, put them in roles that they’re naturally gifted for. I mean, you think about like, Chick-fil-A versus McDonald’s, that’s the same business, but it seems like McDonald’s struggles a little bit more than Chick-fil-A to find talent and it’s fast food. AJV (22:16): Yeah. MW (22:17): So that has to do with leadership development and culture and vision. And I actually know quite a few Chick-fil-A’s that use culture index. AJV (22:26): Hmm. So, so much of it is about that pairing. Right? So one of the things that I have found really difficult is even knowing what you need out of, of a position, right. Like I know that seems kind of silly, but it’s actually quite challenging to go, like, what do I actually need out of this position? So any thoughts around that and how to help business owners and leaders be like, what do I want out of this position? I know what needs to get done, but like, what do I actually need this person to do in terms of what skill sets and what traits and what drivers I’m like, mm-hmm . And then I think too, it’s like, in addition to that, one of the things I’ve found, it’s like, if someone does not, like, for me, I’m only speaking for me. So if any of my team members are listening, like good insight into my brain it’s like, if you need me to create your vision, it’s not gonna work out for you in the long term. AJV (23:21): Right. And that’s like, that has nothing to do with the position itself. That’s just knowing myself as the leader business owner. It’s like, I want people who, who see it and who can create it for themselves. But if you’re gonna wait around and you’re gonna make, wait for me to build that for you, I’m not gonna do it. Mm-Hmm . And so I think a part of that is just there’s I think a part of this, that’s a little bit of self discovery of like, what do I need and the people around me. So any advice or tips that you would give to business owners to do that? MW (23:52): Yeah. So let’s go back to the first part about the actual job where I see I wouldn’t say most, but I have clients that have struggled with being able to define what do I really need in this role. Mm-Hmm . And I think that happens for a couple of reasons. One, if there’s a lack of a strategic vision in the company of where we’re going, and then what are the roles that we need for that? And then what are the KPIs to define success in each of those roles? Mm-Hmm , without that, it’s kinda like, well, we kind of need you to just take care of things. Well was Patrick Lindsay only who wrote a book called three signs of a miserable job? Oh, one of those signs I measurement in his research. He said that when employees, one of the, one of the biggest detracting factors from wanting to continue working is when my boss couldn’t provide clear feedback on how was I doing and was I winning or not? And regardless of culture index profile, like if you get somebody with good core values and ethic, they wanna come to work and add value. AJV (24:56): Yeah, totally. MW (24:57): If it’s on, but it’s on the leader to, to define here’s what you do in your job. Okay. So, but that, that we struggle with that when there’s a lack of clear direction. Yeah. And a lack of a strategy. But the second thing is, is because what you mentioned, you know, is we have a different piece of the program where we actually design so that you can answer questions about the job. And then it says, okay, this is the pattern. Or these are the patterns that will produce the ideal behavior, where 80 to 90% of the day, this is how you need to behave. Mm-Hmm, where we, where I have clients that will struggle in being able to define that is, and a lot of times they’re like, well, I want them to be visionary and strategic and macro. And I also don’t want them to be perfect and cross every T and dot every I. MW (25:48): And you’re basically saying, look, I want somebody who’s equally good at playing offense and defense at the same time. And so that’s where, you know, I, I challenge my clients, push back and say like, at the end of the day, is it more important for this person to win and innovate or not make mistakes? And usually when you put a straight edge on it like that, they’re able to say, yeah, but I can’t have everything. But if this is what is ultimately gonna make this position successful, they need to be detailed. Let’s say we can measure that. Mm-Hmm or they’re not gonna have direction. They gotta be risk tolerant. Okay. Well, we can measure that. AJV (26:22): Yeah. MW (26:22): So you can’t have everything. AJV (26:24): I think that’s a good reminder to all of us. You can’t have everything. So if someone out there is going, okay, like something you just said clicked, but I’m not currently using culture index. It’s like, what would be like the, the first step advice that you would give to a leader who’s going, this is how you get clear of what you need out of a position. Would you say it’s like, start with the KPIs, like start with the end result in mind? Like, what would you say? MW (26:51): Hmm. I go back to the fitness business experience where I learned there and, you know, our CEO was a fantastic strategic thinking visionary. And so we just had this vision for five years out of what we wanted to be. And there was 300 fitness communities and, and it was, and we could clearly define it. And it actually took us four days as a leadership team to come up with that. It’s like, where do we wanna be in the next three to five? Or I think it was five years. And then once we got that end goal, then we backed into how do we get there? And we broke it down. What are the metrics that need to be measured? And then what’s feasible year four, year, three, year two, and year one. And so you take the big picture, but then you break it down to bite size. MW (27:34): So then we took it and we said, okay, so this year we’re only gonna, here’s our one year goal. And we had what we, we drew this mountain and we had base camps up to the top of the mountain. And the cool thing was, it was like, I forget who wrote the book, making vision stick. But we did, we, we really focused as leaders in the organization of communicating that vision of where we’re going down to everybody who was even a part-time employee. So they knew what the vision was. And then they knew how, what they do every day ties in to helping us achieve that mission. Mm. I love that. So I would say that, and then some kind of operational system, like traction or scaling up with ver Harnish where there’s, there’s so many resources out there on how to scale a business mm-hmm and the, in my opinion, there’s no really need to reinvent the wheel. Just take one of those and run with it. AJV (28:34): Yeah. We implemented traction here at brand builders group, the book traction by Gina Wickman. It was mandatory reading for all of our leaders three years ago. And it’s like, we, we put in place traction simultaneously as we started doing culture index. So okay. So I know I’m, I’m watching the clock. I know we only have a few more minutes left here, but I’ve got like two other, like, kinda like big questions. So one of the things that I find fascinating, and I know if I find it fascinating, all of the other people out there listening also find it fascinating. So help give people some insight into some of these profiles that you have at culture index, cuz there’s a lot of them. There’s a lot. Right. And I know my profile as I’m a persuader. Right. And it’s a heck of a lot easier for me to work with other persuaders than it is some others. It’s just, there’s like a natural ease in it. So give us some, like, what are some like just inside behind the scenes knowledge, if no one, no one’s ever taken this, I don’t know what this is. Mm-Hmm person I’ve heard about it. What is your profile structure and give us some highlights of some of the profiles that are in culture index. MW (29:42): Yeah. So let’s go back to some, you know, probably something that’s really familiar for a lot of people is like a disk profile, right? The D I S C it’s been around for a long time reasonably accurate, but it, it, it lumps people into one of four categor categories. Right. So if I know I’m communicating with a high D that’s about 25% of the world, according to disk, the problem with that is it’s kinda like looking at a mountain. If I’m, if I’m a mile away from a mountain, I can tell that’s a tall mountain, but, and I can, I, I can go climb that. But then when I get up really close and I can see the precise, like there, here’s a big crevice, here’s a ma major like overhang that changes how I approach that. And so what you’re really looking at and where I think what I love about culture index is that it is precise in that. MW (30:34): And so to, you mentioned profiles, think of it. Like if I’m, if I’ve got, let’s say you’ve got the disc and you’ve got four tools for people, right. Well, how much more precise and accurate can I be? And confident if I were to say, Hey, actually I have 19 different tools and here’s how you use each one of those different tools. And so we’ve broken it down into 19 different patterns. So for example, within the high D for disk, where they have one profile for that, they actually have five. And so that changes and there’s a lot of nuances there. And the big thing too is I, I try to train my clients. So there’s two things that are really important when it comes to motivation and communication. One is that person naturally off playing offense or defense, and then how do they think learn and problem solve. MW (31:23): Hmm. And so we call that deductive and inductive reasoning or thinking. And so that changes how we communicate. If, if I’m talking with you as a persuader with a higher B trait, I know that you’re actually going to need some personal interaction. If I’m working with you pretty consistently, because that’s a motivational drive. Whereas if I’m working with Rory, he wants to come to work. And that B is low, even though you guys have the same, a trait, essentially your B is very different. And so you guys are radically different just on that one data point and we’ve got seven mm-hmm . And so the communication piece of verbal processor versus an introspective analytical thinker. So there’s one, there’s one thing though, to know, oh, introvert and extrovert. It’s totally different when you talk in like real life situations within existing context of the team and say, here’s where this problem is coming from. And here’s how we resolve that problem based off this data. Yeah. And, and, and the other thing is that it just takes a little time. Yeah. You know, as you know, as a client, it takes the time to learn really, how do I use this? Cuz you’re actually learning a new language because, because we typically treat other people the way we wanna be treated. Right. And then if you do the math and there’s really 19 major patterns that profiles out there, 5% chance that somebody that you’re talking to is you mm-hmm AJV (32:40): , it’s not a lot. It’s not a lot. It’s not a lot. It’s not a lot. You know, it’s so interesting. I remember doing this for our own team and we know we had everyone take this and you know, as a, as a Testament to this for all of us out there, I, I bet every single person listening and probably not every single client that you work with, you have people on your team or have had ’em at some point where you said, I know it’s the right person, but Lord help me. They are not in the right seat. And it’s like, they are going to drive me insane. They’re not helping the business grow. They’re causing issues, but it’s like, but deepen my soul. It’s like, I know they’re the right person. Mm-Hmm . But like, and that happened to us on two different times, over the last three and a half years since we started brand builders group. AJV (33:25): And I remember this, I don’t know if you remember this conversation. But we were talking about one of our key employees and I remember this conversation and you said you have shrink, trapped and Eagle . I was like, yes, I did. We have shrink, trapped our Eagle. And it was like a really big aha moment of like really getting to know this, the inner workings of this particular employee’s brain. And I’m going, oh my gosh, no wonder. She’s been frustrated. I’ve been frustrated. Everyone around her has been frustrated. She is doing the exact opposite of what her natural gifts are and what her natural gifts are, are a deep need that we have in the organization. It was just like pew, pew, pew fireworks, going off. And it’s, it took us six months to move her around in this new position. And it’s been a world of change for her, for me, for the team, for our clients of it’s like she filled such a great need and it, it comes easy for her. AJV (34:33): She enjoys it. She loves it versus man, she was stressy, you know what out? Because she was in spreadsheets and she does not like spreadsheets. It’s not good at spreadsheets. And it’s like it was like, it’s like, you know, you, you’re looking on the outside going, why is like what in the world? And you’re like, I gotta help this person be more organized. They need more accountability. And it’s like, no, they’re never gonna be successful in that role. Mm-Hmm like, it is such work for them. Like you’re gonna lose a great person, a great team member because you gotta ’em in the freaking wrong seat. And that was like hugely important for us. MW (35:12): I, I just had this thought, you know, you mentioned my daughter. I take every Monday off and we just play together. And so much of the play is actually like work. Like she wants to build things or she wants to fix something or she wants to go explore or she wants to start something, but it actually has a lot to do with work. She wants to cook. She wants to make something. And it’s like, that stuff is effortless and fun to her. So what happens between when we’re kids and then we have to go get a job and then at work has a negative context to it. Yeah. The reason why I think it is, is because it feels like work. If I show up and I have to do things I’m not naturally wired up to do. Right. But the, and that’s where stress comes honestly. And that’s why work takes longer. You know, people say like work will expand to the time allotted for it. I, I don’t think that’s necessarily true because if you have somebody doing something that’s natural for them, doesn’t feel like work they’re more efficient. Yeah. It doesn’t feel like work and they’ve got better morale. AJV (36:11): Yeah. And it’s, I think it’s so important. It’s like one of our big commitments in our company and it’s like, we’re definitely not perfect at this. Got a long way to go. But it’s like, if we know it’s the right person, it’s like, let’s find the role that you’re naturally gonna succeed in. Because otherwise we’re doing each other, a disservice, like we’re trying to make it work. You’re trying to make it work when it’s like, you could go out and find a position that you love. And you know, it’s interesting, cuz we’ve all heard that old saying is like people don’t leave companies, people leave people. I really believe that there’s a middle step in there. It’s like people leave jobs. Mm-Hmm right. And it’s not always a person’s fault. It’s not always like it was that they left because of bad leadership. It’s like sometimes I think people leave because they’re like, I hate my job. I don’t like what I’m doing. It’s like, I love you. Like I really do. Right. But I’m not happy with what I’m doing. I think when people say, I feel called to go do something else, what they’re really saying is you have me doing something that I don’t love. MW (37:14): Mm-Hmm AJV (37:14): so how do we change that? MW (37:16): Yeah. And there there’s some structures and organizations where there are limitations and it’s like, you may have been really enjoying this and good here, but then we don’t have another opportunity to leverage those strengths. And so they may have to leave. That’s not on the leader, but then a lot of it is in on the leader of if I don’t understand my talent and therefore I’m not optimizing them, then that really is on the leadership. AJV (37:41): Yeah. I’m so good. I love discussions like this. I love learning just about people and it’s like, I love all these. I love culture index, fascinate, engram disc. I do all of them. I’m just fascinated with learning about like human nature in general. Mm-Hmm but I think it’s interesting. It’s like, no matter what profile I take, like I’m an eight on the Igram I’m a, I’m a, are MW (38:02): You me too? AJV (38:03): I’m an eight go figure. I’m a di and disk. Right? I’m the Maro and fascinate, I’m the persuader. And it’s like, but they’re all complimentary. And it’s like, okay. I should probably like take my own advice here. It’s like, I know myself well enough, but yet like even in this conversation, it’s like, I have like this checklist of things that feel like work to me and it’s because I’m not naturally gifted in ’em. So I have to, it takes me longer. It’s it’s harder for me. I don’t enjoy it at the end of those days where I’m doing that. I feel stressed and overwhelmed because it’s, it’s not fun. And then I have other days where it’s like, man, it was a great day and I’m always asking myself what makes a great day for me as a business owner. And I think that’s a good question for everyone to ask. AJV (38:50): It’s like get really in tune with like what makes a great day. And I’ve just found like for me, it’s like, I, my cup is full when I get to spend time with our clients and with team members that, you know, are positive and happy. Like I love that. And been on days where I’m just like sitting behind a computer screen all by myself, crunching numbers, I’m like, Ugh, this is so hard. Like why does this feel like work? And so I think you just gotta get in tune with that for yourself too. And mm-hmm, taking things like the culture index assessment helps you get in tune with yourself, helps you get in tune with your team. So again, Matt has given us a free link for everyone to take. And we’re last question here, and then we’ll wrap up. So Matt, what would you say? And this is nothing related to the culture index. But what would you say out of all the different companies and leaders and CEOs that you’ve worked with over the years pre and post culture index, what would you say in your personal opinion? We don’t need any, you know, statistical validation here, just your personal opinion. What do you think makes the best leader? MW (40:06): Hmm, man, that’s a tough one. The first thing that comes to mind is humility, but then I had to check myself cause I, I think I’m a good leader and I wouldn’t necessarily call myself humility or humble. I’d like, I’d like to think that, but I think because I also see this, like I, I do, I engaged with visionary leaders all day long and some of them with same identical culture, next profiles have very different results because you could be a leader, but if nobody wants to follow you, it really doesn’t matter how strategic you are. And it really doesn’t matter how much vision you have or how you can hold team accountable. It’s like at the end of the day, if people don’t trust you and you’re not approachable and open for feedback as a leader, I think it’s gonna be very difficult to build a team around you because every good leader, I know they really believe like I couldn’t have gotten here without the team that helped me get there. And so, and maybe that’s just the, the other thing too, is like, I want to aspire more of that because the twenties and my thirties, it was like crash course in humility, especially the thirties. And I think I’m at a better place because I’ve gotten a little less ego. AJV (41:28): Hmm. That’s so good. I love that. Such a good conversation. If people wanna connect with you online social media, what’s the best platform for them to go to? MW (41:39): Well, I, I am not great with social media. I think it’s Instagram is Matt white, 3 21, LinkedIn is, is there. And then you know, like we said, if you guys take that survey, then my assistant will reach out and schedule a few minutes to review the data with you, either with me. One of my colleagues and well AJV (42:03): Since you’re self proclaimed, so Instagram, Matt white 3, 2, 1, MW (42:09): It’s Matt white, 3 21, AJV (42:11): Matt white 3 21. Or MW (42:12): It’s basically just pictures of sale though. or dirt, bikes, AJV (42:16): Pictures, basical, pretty much all I want. Well that that’ll be an offline conversation for me and you, we, I can help you with this. You help me with the people I’ll help you with social media. So MW (42:27): Yeah, I have no brand. So I’m, I’m your next client? I have no brand AJV (42:31): Note to sell note to sell Matt, so awesome. Thank you. So for being on here everyone be sure to stay tuned for the episode and we’ll you next time on the influential personal brand. MW (42:44): Thanks AJ.