Ep 302: Understanding Enneagram with Ian Morgan Cron



Whether you’ve never heard of Enneagrams before, or you’re a die-hard fan, today’s episode is for you!

We talk with Enneagram Teacher, Author, Speaker, Psychotherapist, and Consultant, Ian Morgan Cron, about the Enneagram and why it’s such a powerful personality tool.

In our conversation, Ian gives an overview of how the Enneagram works, the nine personality types it is made up of, and how it differs from other personality tools.

He explains why he’s a fan of any tool that helps its users gain self-knowledge, why information can only lead to growth if you are empowered with the tools for transformation, and how you can rewrite your story.

We also discuss his book The Story of You: An Enneagram Journey to Becoming Your True Self, as well as his podcast Typology, a podcast that explores the mystery of the human personality and how we can use the Enneagram typing system as a tool to become our most authentic selves.

Today’s conversation offers key insights into the invisible forces that govern our lives, how we can rewrite our stories, and why self-knowledge is integral to a happy life.

We hope you’ll join us for this life-changing conversation!


  • Introducing today’s guest, Ian Morgan Cron.
  • An overview of the Enneagram, an ancient personality typing system.
  • Why Ian is a fan of any tool that helps users gain self-knowledge.
  • How the Enneagram differs from other personality tools.
  • What the Enneagram tool teaches us about our strengths and weaknesses.
  • An overview of Ian’s latest book The Story of You: An Enneagram Journey to Becoming Your True Self.
  • The nine stories that each type believes about themselves and the world.
  • How these stories are first formed and how they can govern our lives.
  • Examples of stories that mission-driven-messengers, entrepreneurs, and speakers typically need to overcome.
  • How a Cornell Business School study demonstrated that self-knowledge is a crucial element of being a successful leader.
  • How to identify the stories that govern your thinking and how it’s affected your life.
  • How to rewrite your story and live with more freedom and happiness.
  • The challenges that entrepreneurs face when they struggle to delegate and how it can prevent them from growing and scaling their business.
  • Where you can go to learn more about Ian and the Enneagram test.
  • The iEQ9 and how you can take the Enneagram test with your partner.


“The Enneagram doesn’t just tell you what you do. It tells you why you do it.” — Ian Morgan Cron [0:04:08]

“The Enneagram does teach us that what’s best about us is also what’s worst about us. And what’s worst about us is also what’s best about us. Our strength is our weakness, and our weakness is our strength.” — Ian Morgan Cron [0:05:06]

“You can have all those hard skills. But if you don’t have the ability to relate to the world and other people in healthy ways, you’re kind of screwed, honestly.” — Ian Morgan Cron [0:16:09]

About Ian Morgan Cron

Ian Morgan Cron is a bestselling author, psychotherapist, Enneagram teacher, Episcopal priest, and the host of the wildly popular podcast, “Typology,” which has over 17 million downloads. His books include the Enneagram primer The Road Back to You, the novel Chasing Francis, the spiritual memoir Jesus, My Father, the CIA, and Me, and The Story of You: An Enneagram Journey to Becoming Your True Self (December 2021).

Known for his transparency, humor, and depth of insight into the inner workings of the human heart and mind, Ian uses the Enneagram personality typing system as a tool to help people cultivate self-awareness and find happiness. Ian is a popular speaker and business consultant for organizations like The Discovery Channel, Michael Hyatt Company, Warner Brothers Music, and Chick-Fil-A. In addition, he shares his expertise on popular podcasts such as “The Minimalists,” “The Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast,” Jon Acuff’s “All It Takes is a Goal,” Jen Hatmaker’s “For the Love,” and many others. He and his wife, Anne, have three children and live in Nashville, Tennessee.


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RV (00:02): Such an honor to introduce to you somebody who is a friend of several friends of mine, Ian Morgan Cron, I’ve, I’ve heard so many things about him. He lives in Nashville. Um, so we hang out with a lot of the same, uh, circles, Donald Miller, Michael Hyat, John AK, et cetera. It’s kind of the Nashville posse around here. And, um, but we’ve never actually met. And so, uh, we got, I, I forgot who connected us recently and said, Hey, you guys really need to know one another. And so it just made sense to bring him on the podcast. So you you’ve probably heard of his podcast. He has a podcast called typology, which has over 17 million downloads. He he’s the author of several books, um, including kind of the Enneagram primer, which was, is called the road back to you. And then he released a, uh, another book recently called the story of you in Igram journey to becoming your true self. And that’s a big part of what we’re gonna talk about today, but, uh, you know, he works with companies like Warner, brother music and Chick-fil-A, and, uh, we have all these, all these similar friends and, uh, anyways, I wanted you to, to hear it. And I know probably half of you have never heard of Anya Graham and the other half of you just are die hard and just know it’s such a powerful tool. And like you just run your whole life by . And so, uh, anyways, Ian, welcome to the show. IMC (01:29): Thanks . It’s great to be here. RV (01:31): So, um, let’s do start with the people who are not the, the, the super engram people. Um, you know, I think people hear it and they go, oh, is that like a disk thing? Right. And, uh, it’s not, there’s, there’s, there’s nine different types, but anyways, can you just kind of give us like the high level overview of it? IMC (01:53): Sure. Well, the Enneagram is an ancient personality typing system. It teaches that there are nine basic personality types in the world. One of which we, uh, gravitate toward an adopting childhood as a way to cope, to protect ourselves and to navigate the new world, uh, of relationships in which we find ourselves. Um, there are nine distinct types and each of them has an underlying unconscious motivation that powerfully influences how that type habitually and predictably acts things and feels from moment to moment. Uh, it’s a great tool. I’ve worked with disk, Hogan, Colby, uh, strength, binder. I love Myers Briggs. Obviously they are all great tools, but in my experience, as a therapist, as a corporate presenter and consultant, I really don’t know a better instrument for helping people develop the kind of self-awareness that not only improves the quality of their personal lives, but tremendously accelerates their success in their professional lives. RV (03:06): Mm that’s interesting. What, what, like, what do you think is the big, that’s a big statement, right? Those are big Myers Briggs, and, uh, you know, obviously disks and strength finders. Like, um, we we’ve, we had Tom we’ve had Tom Rath on the show. He’s a good friend. Like these are really, really powerful. So, um, what do you think really is the, is kind of the defining or the, you know, the big distinction between any Agram and you know, some of these other tools maybe that people have heard of. IMC (03:33): So to be clear again, I love any tool that helps people develop self-awareness I love it when I hear people tapping into multiple tools, uh, so that they get a sort of a 360 eye on everything. Mm-hmm that, uh, maybe going on in their interior world and to understand their God-given architecture. Right. Um, now what does, what, what sort of distinguishes the engram from these other tools? One is the engram just doesn’t tell you what you do. It tells you why you do it. Okay. So this is really important. It’s not enough to know just your characteristic traits. It’s important to know why those traits are in place, so that you’re getting, you begin to work with your strengths and your weaknesses at the level of the root system, right? You, you, you wanna understand what is it that’s making me be the way that I am in the world, how I show up for life. Secondly, um, one of the things the Ingram does is, you know, if you’re looking for flattery, the Enneagram is not the tool you wanna RV (04:39): Use. I love the, I know that there’s some, like, uh, one of the things that I, I thought was pretty entertaining was how they talk about at its extremes in the, in the negative direction. You know, it’s like the Hitler was this way, or like, you know, some, somebody like, uh, I thought that was kind of like, oh, that’s, it’s not flattering. Um, uh, always, IMC (05:02): So, you know, the Ingram does teach us that what’s best about us is also what’s worst about us. And what’s worst about us is also what’s best about us. Our strength is our weakness. Our weakness is our strength, right? And so, um, you know, in the beginning of the journey of understanding who you are and developing self-awareness, you are gonna have to confront those parts of your personality that are, uh, in direct opposition opposition to the person that you want to become, right? Like, like we all, we all should wanna know what is it that stands between me and the person who I want to become. And so, you know, that, that requires looking at the shadow aspect of our personality that said the Enneagram also will tell you what’s most wonderful about who you are, but you do have to kind of slog through the not so great stuff before you get to realizing, oh my gosh, at my core, uh, I have all kinds of competencies and, uh, personality traits that are wonderful and needed at the table of life. RV (06:11): Mm-hmm so, so the road back, like the road back to you was, is kind of like sets the founda. The, the foundation, I guess, is how, how I process it and think about it. And then the story of you is your newest book. So can you talk a little bit about why the new, why this, why this version of the book and this, this kind of angle? IMC (06:39): So, yeah, I mean, the road back to you was a remarkable, you know, at the risk of sounding self congratulatory, but I’m as surprised by it as anybody. So don’t, don’t hear it as me bragging, you know, it was a tremendous success that I could not have predicted. Right? Mm. Um, and the road back to you for me, was more of a book about, okay, so I have information. So now how do I begin to activate transformation? Like information is not growth, right? You can know everything there is to know about you. And if you don’t have a, a formula for transformation, it just doesn’t make any difference. Right now you’re just armed with data, but data doesn’t mean anything unless somebody can analyze it and then make decisions based on that new information. Right. Mm-hmm so, uh, so for example, you could have, um, all kinds of business data. IMC (07:36): You know, this, uh, you may understand your email list. You may understand who your customer is. You may have done all the, gotten all the metrics, but if you don’t act on those and know how to act on those who cares, who cares that you have all, all that information, right? Um, that’s not a perfect correlate, but it’s not bad either. Um, so this book was really about helping people understand that the engram just doesn’t describe nine personality types, but the nine stories, each of those types tell themselves and others about who they are, um, and how they think the world works. Because, you know, we all understand up we’re mutual friend, Don Miller knows this, um, who by the way, is featured in the book, uh, in one of the chapters, you know, we, we all know that we, uh, live inside. We, we experience our, our lives as being lived inside of a narrative inside of a story. IMC (08:34): But what if the story that you picked up as a little kid is wrong? Like, what if the story you picked up as a little person and now have dragged into adulthood is frustrating your ability to live a, a happy, productive life. And I’ve as a therapist, you know, as a person who works in that call it the self development space, right? It’s like, if you don’t unearth and examine the narrative in which you live your life, it will govern your life negatively from the shadows. You won’t even know it’s running. Right. Uh, it’s just kind of like, you know, like a system back here that’s running. And if you don’t confront that old story, then you will continue to live by its dictates. Um, this is why I think sometimes, you know, it’s interesting in my conversations with people, if I use the word stuck, nobody has once asked me to define what I mean by the word stuck. Mm. They, they just know it right away. Right. It’s just like, oh yeah, I’m stuck. Well, what is the reason for people’s experience of stuckness? Usually it’s because they’re living by an old narrative that no longer works for them. And I wanna free people from that narrative. And that’s what the book, the story of you describes. RV (09:56): So here’s what I wanna ask you about is I wanna try to like tie this together. The, yeah. The people listening here are, are, we would describe them as mission driven messengers. So they are experts who in some way they serve the world typically as an expert. And, um, you know, you, you, you said something earlier about your first book, you said, I, I had, I couldn’t have predicted its success. And I think it’s really, really true about, uh, in life. But even as, as a personal brand, we all have a, we live inside of a story. That’s subconscious, like it’s there. And it came from wherever it came from. Um, and it governs what, how successful maybe we allow ourselves to become, or it limits us in terms of, you know, maybe we’re not, we don’t wanna be self promotional or et cetera, et cetera. RV (10:50): What do you think are some of the stories that people who are on a mission sort of struggle with, or, um, you know, could be just entrepreneurs or just anybody who’s an author or a speaker, just having been that path, you know, both as, as the counselor and understanding engram, but also as an author who has built this tremendously successful and well respected, um, brand and reputation for such a, a very specific space. I mean, you, you have accomplished several of the things that we talk about and Def define and describe and try to provide training for. So I’m just curious, what do you think are some of those stories that you think we all have to overcome in our journey as an expert entrepreneur, author, speaker type? IMC (11:38): Well, there are some obvious ones. Um, you know, how many times have you heard people say, or you can vaguely pick up in your conversation with them? Something like, um, I’m not smart enough to do this. That’s a, that’s a broken story, right? Uh, or how about I’m too old to start a new business? Mm that’s a, that’s a broken story. Um, you know, you might hear, uh, someone say, man, if I, I had to do this perfectly or not at all right, that’s an old story from childhood, you know, that’s the Enneagram one story it’s sort of like you are raised with this belief that the world only rewards, good people and judges, bad people. And therefore you have to do everything perfectly. You have to perfect yourself, others in the world and you, uh, you can’t make mistakes. You, you, um, uh, have to live up to these high rigid, uh, internal standards that are impossible to meet. IMC (12:40): Now you wanna talk about something frustrating, the development of a business, try perfectionism. Right. I remember Mike Hyat saying to me once, and it was really revelatory. Cause I do have a little bit of a perfectionist street. And he said to me once, uh, Ian, don’t wait till it’s perfect to put it out there, do the best. You can throw it out, uh, fix it as you go, but don’t wait for anything to be perfect in life. Just get a product out there and see how it goes. And that was like so liberating for me. And it went against an old story. I’ve been telling myself about how the world works, you know, and about myself. Like I don’t have any value unless I’m perfect. Is that true? Now that’s an old story. Like now Mike is an engram three, that’s called the, the performer or the achiever. IMC (13:25): The performer believes that the world only values others for what they accomplish and achieve in life, but not for who they are inside. So therefore they become addicted and driven to succeed, to appear successful to other people and to avoid failure at all costs. Now that’s a, that story may have helped Mike or other threes as little people to kind of find their way in the world and make sense of their experiences. But that’ll kill you in business. That’ll kill you in your personal life, right? How many workaholics do you know who live by that story? Right? Or, um, people that, you know, become risk averse, cuz they just they’re afraid of not appearing successful. So again, I could go through all nine types. It would take too much time, but I, I think you get the idea here, right? You gotta see the story, you gotta deconstruct the story. You gotta take it apart. You gotta interrogate and challenge it and then decide, I want a new story. I, I want a story that’s gonna lead to a life that is genuinely happy, satisfying, you know, has fulfillment and you know, opens the door for the kind of success I had never thought I could achieve. RV (14:34): And yeah. And you mentioned the three, uh, which is like the, the achiever, right. Or the performer mm-hmm . And I think a lot of people listening to this would, would fall into that category just because it’s like, you know, they’ve many times when we meet people at brand builders group, it’s because they have, they have been at the top of their trade or their profession or their industry. And now they’ve already achieved that. It’s like, they’ve won all the trophies and the awards and now they’re going, okay. I wanna help other people do it. Um, so you know, the, and, and then also I think like the I’m too old, you don’t hear that as much, but I think it sort of shows up in ways like, well, I don’t understand social media or I don’t, you know, I don’t like that or I, you know, I’m just not good with technology or, um, those, those kinds of things. Um, so I, I mean, what is talk to us about rewriting the stories Ian, so like whatever they are or, or even identifying it. Like, I love how you said that. Okay, first you gotta like identify it and then we deconstruct it. Then we figure out which pieces that we want. What are the, are the, you have any tips for kind of identifying and going like, Ooh, here’s a mental trigger. RV (15:51): I am recognizing in a split second that I’m operating according to a belief that was set in place at some point in my past, maybe unintentionally, like how do we first identify? Cuz it feels like that’s half the battle here. IMC (16:09): Yes. So lemme just, uh, back up just for a second, because I want, I want to add something to this that I think that your audience would be interested in. RV (16:17): Yeah. IMC (16:17): So years ago, uh, Cornell business school, um, did a study of 72 high performing CEOs, leading companies in value, let’s say from 50 million to 5 billion. Okay. And what they wanted to determine is what specific trait accounted for their unusual success, right? And so they expected it to be grit, determination of strategic planning, charisma, you know, the typical things we read about in business books all the time here was the exact quote from the end of the study, the key determinant of success in, in leadership or executive among executives is self-awareness now that that stunned the researchers. Right? And I, this is why I get invited to companies all over the world. It’s because they’re looking around and saying, well, we got all these skills, these hard skills, but we don’t have the self knowledge and the self-awareness. And that makes us bad leaders that makes us bad entrepreneurs. Right. Because you know, you can have all those hard skills, but if you don’t have the ability to relate to the world in other people in healthy ways, you’re kind of screwed honestly. Right. You’re kind, you’re being held back in dramatic ways. I, I mean, I, I spend so much time coming in and doing cleanup it’s, you know, people save me all the time. I wish you’d been here five years ago. Would’ve saved me a lot of time. Right. Okay. So how do you go about identifying and RV (17:52): Well, and so to that, to that point, before you go into that, so is it, is it usually, if you, if you’re not self-aware are you just, are you delusional? Like you just, you think you’re something you’re not, or are you just completely like unaware and you’re just sort of like cranking along. I mean, is it basically one of those two, two things? IMC (18:13): Uh, it’s actually both of those things among others, right. I mean, on one level, you know, there’s a lot of people, you know, um, you have a lot of three sevens and eights in your audience, I guarantee you for sure. Right. There’s the three most assertive, aggressive types on the anti angiogram. Um, and, RV (18:30): And I’m a, if I remember right, I think I’m a three. And then what do you call it? A wing? I think I’m a three wing eight. IMC (18:38): Well, you can’t be an eight. You’d have to be a, your wing could only be a two or a four if you’re a three. Ah, RV (18:42): So IMC (18:43): It’s the two numbers adjacent to yours. It’s the only options RV (18:46): For wings. Oh, I got you on either side. Okay. But I’m, I’m pretty sure I’m a three. IMC (18:51): Yeah, I would imagine. So. Um, and uh, I actually could have guessed that in the beginning of our call. It it’s interesting if you, once you get to know the angiogram pretty well, you can, with a pretty high degree of accuracy, start to pick out where other types RV (19:06): Are. I peg people pretty quickly. IMC (19:08): Yeah. I mean, I could pick it up from your clothes, from your background, uh, from what you do for a living. I could pick it up from, um, the kinds of things that matter to you, your priorities. Um, so anyway, that’s one of the benefits. Once you’re able to start doing that, talk about knowing how to relate to customers and your staff is, you know, it’s a tremendous advantage that said, you know, um, I think that self-awareness is important because if you do not have the capacity to step back and self observe in the moment, like in every interaction, right. Able to observe yourself and you can tell, oh my gosh, I have slipped back into an old rotten story. And, and I need to make new decisions in this moment to live into the story that I believe is true. Right? It’s like, you have a true story, you have a false story. IMC (20:08): It’s usually one, we call it an origin story. You have a false origin story and that’s gotta go. Right. And the way we do that, I use the acronym. So S O a R. So the first step is you gotta see the story. Right. And that’s just a matter of looking into the past and saying, okay, where did this story come from? What is it? And what, you know, like what, where did it come from? So that’s where we start. Then we go to the second step, which is you gotta own the story, which is to say it’s a little bit like, um, you know, looking at the effects, living in that story have had on your life, how has it affected your marriage, how it, you know, affected your relationship with your children, uh, your career, your dreams, you know, I, you know, part of that is if you don’t own it, there’s, there’s, there’s not much impetus to go forward, right? IMC (21:01): Like you’ve just gotta say, yep, this is what it’s cost me. And you can also say, and this is how it’s helped me, but how it’s helped me is, uh, not nearly as powerful as how it’s negatively affected my life. Right. Mm. The, the third step is to awaken. So that, that is really to say, okay, um, how do I now in the present begin to recognize when that old story has taken the wheel again, and, and then also make new choices like, oh, I don’t have to do that anymore. Like, like I can live in a new way that are, that’s aligned with my values, with my goals, with my dreams. Right. And then the last step is to rewrite. And that’s also a very conscious exercise. Like what is the story now in the future that I want to live in? So it really does cover the past, the present and the future, um, and gives you, uh, you know, sort of a great 50,000 foot view of your life. IMC (21:56): Right. Um, and the book, the story of you, you know, I go through all four stages and detail and show people how to do it. You know, obviously we can’t go into the, the, the granular detail right now, but, and you know, what’s interesting, Laurie, and we don’t, I don’t want to go necessarily down this wormhole, but you know, companies tell themselves stories about who they are and how they think the world works that are not true. Right. Yeah. I always, I always think about Dunder Mifflin. You know, if you, if you were really to have a corporate retreat with all the people there, they might say that the story that der Mifflin tells itself about who they are and how they think the world works is we’re the crappy paper company. Like we sell crappy paper. Now they gotta see that they gotta own that. they gotta awaken to the fact that, you know, like when does that take and hold and rewrite the narrative of their company? RV (22:49): And you see that like all, basically most of these stories, they come, they go all the way back to childhood and it was some moments. So like, you know, I, I think you’re right, that there’s a lot of threes. I mean, in, in our audience, at some point you felt outcast or something, I, as a child or you didn’t experience love or whatever. And so you resolved to basically go, I’m gonna achieve my way into being important. Like that kind of a thing IMC (23:20): That could be one of many stories that might produce a three, um, you know, a classic three story. I actually was interviewing a three, the, oh, you know him, um, it was, uh, oh gosh, my brain just went dead. The only name that’s coming to me right now is Jay Sheti, but it is not Jay Sheti it’s it’s, uh, RV (23:43): Lewis. Was it Lewis house? IMC (23:45): No, it was a good friend of Michael’s and, um, others. And he’s a brand, uh, guy anyway, it’ll come back to me. He’s a three. And, um, what he said was, you know, I was a kid and, uh, if I brought home a paper that was a 97, my father, the first words outta my father’s mouth was where’s the other 3%. IMC (24:05): And, you know, the message he got, uh, from, as a kid was, uh, love is predicated on your achievement. So it’s like, if you carry that message into adulthood, you’re gonna continue to believe that success equals love. I mean, you know, it’s like, if I don’t succeed, no one will value me. No one’s gonna see me. No, one’s gonna appreciate me. And you know, part of the journey is you gotta see that story and realize, you know, I guess on one level, that story could produce success, right? It’ll also make you miserable. it will also make you not a very good person in your worst expression. It could make you someone who cuts corners and maybe becomes someone who’s so ambitious that you’re when willing to take credit for stuff that other people did of seeing that in corporate settings. Now that’s a unhealthy three, but you get the idea, right? It’s like, you have to wake up and realize I want to be a success, but do I wanna build myself esteem on success? I don’t think so. RV (25:11): And so you, you, you basically just have to become aware of it. Like you just have to recognize, oh, whatever, like we’re, I think work AISM is a good example of going all I’m doing. And I think there’s a lot of people doing that. And obviously working from home makes that E easier probably than ever before is just going, why am I doing this? This is connected somehow to a story. I once told myself this old program that’s still there. IMC (25:40): And then, and what, and maybe part of what you want to confront is the first objection a person might have is. Yeah. But if I don’t keep doing this, I won’t be successful anymore. And what I would say is, well, that’s gonna cost you a lot. That’s gonna cost you relationships with children. It’s gonna, you know, it’s, it’s restricting you from living a full life. Now, the old part of the old story you have to confront is, uh, that I won’t be successful unless I continue to live by those rules. That’s a lie. You can continue to be successful and productive and not live by those rules and live with more freedom and happiness, you know, can you imagine how great it is to be successful and enjoy, you know, product, you know, being a productive person without having to build your self esteem on it. I mean, that’s a great feeling of freedom and that’s what I want people to experience. RV (26:36): Mm-hmm yeah. Mm. Yeah. I mean, um, and so when you talk about the rewrite, okay, so you gave us, you gave a sore, you talk about rewriting. Tell us a little bit, tell us a little bit about that. Right? Cause it’s, it’s actually, to me, it, it’s not that hard to spot this in ourselves, if we’re just looking for it because you kind of go, well, what’s my greatest strength. That’s also probably my greatest weakness. Like what I do the most of it’s also probably something that’s harming me. And, and specifically you could just go, like, where am I? Where am I losing in life? Or where am I not experiencing life? The way I want it. And then kind of go on the, the co what’s the cause of that. The cause of that is, is some underlying message that I’ve told myself over and over again. And so on the rewriting part of it. So just to touch on it real quickly, I know we don’t have a ton of time, but like, is there anything specific you have to do to rewrite it? I mean, is it basically like you literally take out a pen or a blank piece of paper and you write and say, boom, this is, this is what I’m letting go of. And this is what I’m choosing to adopt for the future. IMC (27:48): Absolutely. It’s not that hard in exercise. I mean, you could do it 350 words, that’s one page, right. Or you could begin there, right. It doesn’t have to be, oh my gosh, I gotta write a novel here. You know? Um, and also I would say, if you do the SOA part, you see it, you own it. You awaken to it as passive as it, as it sounds, you will have cleared away enough to bring at that point, that the story you wanna live will begin to emerge on its own. You know what I mean? It just starts to come up like green shoes. Okay. And you just begin to enjoy it. What you just described is in part self-awareness, I’m able to see when the old story is taking place. I then start making new decisions, like pause and people who don’t have, self-awareness worry. IMC (28:32): Here’s what they do. They bang guardrail to guardrail through other people’s lives. They’re on autopilot. They don’t even know their, why they’re doing the things they do. And they don’t know why they continue to do things they don’t wanna do. And they continue to do things. Uh, they don’t continue not to do things they do want to do. Right. It’s like, they’re like stuck in ground high bay, but once you get self-awareness, you’re able to say, you know, and you’ve done the exercise of saying, sitting down and going, well, what’s the life I wanna live. What am I afraid of? Uh, are those fears justified? Like, let me ask you as a three, right? Imagine if I said to you roaring next year, um, what would happen if your business went down 50% and you say I’m terrified of that idea. And I said to you, okay, well just tell me five reasons why you’re scared. IMC (29:24): And you might say, well, if I was honest, I’m afraid of reputation loss. I’m afraid of maybe people not respecting me as much as they used to. Mm-hmm , I’m afraid of not looking as successful as I did. I’m afraid that my self esteem is gonna go down. Right. And you could write a whole list and then I could just say to you, okay. So let’s imagine that happened. Would that be the end of the world? Uh, would you, do you think it’s a permanent thing? If your business goes down by half, you see what I mean? Like you’re unearthing and, and sort challenging that this is gonna be the end of the world. Right? RV (29:55): You kinda walk in that for a minute and realize it’s not as bad as you think. Yeah. I was, I was actually having this conversation with Louis House once, because I was saying, you know, I grew up with so little that my mind immediately goes back to, we’re gonna be broke living on the streets. Like it’s like, we’re so far away from that ever being a reality. And we have so many skills and relationships that it’s, you know, it’s pretty near impossible that that situation would ever happen. But it’s almost like I’m running at times from, uh, that extreme of a fear, because it was so deep rooted in who I was growing up and how little we had. And it’s like, what a silly thing to be running away from when you’re, when you’re like, you know, light years away. Like for it to still drive you like that. IMC (30:48): Yeah. And, but it’s, but at the same time, it’s really understandable. So, you know, be kind, I tell this all the time, be kind, there’s a reason that fear is in place. You you’ll know you’re in an old story. You just described it too. If your fears are disproportionate, right. It’s like, wait a minute. That is an over the top fear. It’s like, that is not true. But you know, what’s happening is literally your little brain is lighting up like it did when you were a kid. And you’re like, you know, well, of course it does. It doesn’t mean you have to continue to live by the rules, but of that. But you know, you have to have a little self compassion and say, look, I know where this comes from, but I also don’t need to live in the old story that that’s gonna be the end of the world. It’s all gonna be okay. I got a great wife, she’ll be there. I got great kids. They’ll be there. I got, you know, I’m a really smart person, you know, I’ll be able RV (31:37): To, you have God. I mean, you have faith. I mean, when you have faith and it’s like, you you’ve got everything. The other story that I would, I would say, Ian, that, that I see a lot of entrepreneurs struggle with is, um, they can’t delegate things because they are stuck in that perfectionism. They really believe the only person who can do it is me. If other people do it, they won’t do it as well as me. Uh, I have to do this myself. I’m the only one who knows how to do it. That story, maybe more than any other is the one that I can, like, I, I see it every day. It, it exists as a reality in their mind. And it, it is a prison sentence of their own construction. If they ever want to scale the business or grow a company or have a team, or just have a life because it traps you to doing everything yourself, um, you, you come across that one ever, IMC (32:39): Oh my gosh. I mean, all the time, I mean, you know, I come into a company and someone go, this guy is, this woman is such a control freak. Like that’s typical of engram, one provers, right? Perfectionism. It’s like, they constantly are rewriting things. I write, uh, they assign me things and then they redo them. Um, they are highly controlling. They’re not very good at praise, right? They’re a little stingy with praise. Like they go on and on about this personality style. And you know, of course that’s gonna restrict, growth’s gonna restrict, as you said, scaling a business. Right. Because it’s gonna put it, it’s a, what I would call a drag coefficient. Right. It’s gonna, it’s gonna slow down the, the, the, the boat, right. It’s like having an anchor off the back RV (33:27): Of the boat. That’s a good way of thinking about it. IMC (33:29): So, you know, um, that is an old story it’s based on, you know, some, you know, for example, I meet a lot of ones that grew up in families where they, you know, either got explicitly, someone told them you have to be perfect and, you know, always good and never make mistakes, or you’ll be punished in some way, you’ll be shamed or you’ll be, you know, told you’re not a good person or whatever. And so that story has to be looked at, or, you know, sometimes they, they had to fill a role of a parent, you know, because, uh, some parent was absent. They had to become an adult way too fast, you know, and step in and take care of his sisters and brothers. And there were no rules. And so they had to come up with the rules for themselves, you know? Um, and so, you know, we have to see that we gotta own it. IMC (34:14): We gotta awaken to when it’s coming online. And then we gotta rewrite a new story that says, I don’t have not, everything has to get done perfectly. I can’t keep hiring people and then not using them and trusting them. Right. Uh, I have to be okay with other people and myself making mistakes. That’s part of the journey. In fact, mistakes can be a great asset if I approach them wisely. So again, you know, um, these are the kinds of things I want to, and, you know, in the story of you, my goal was how do I help people break out of the prisons? They don’t even know they’re in, because that’s when those, when you don’t know where you’re in a prison, that’s the most secure prison in the world, right? Is the one you don’t know you’re in. And so, you know, I want people to experience freedom in their work life and their personal lives. Um, I want them to not only enjoy success, let’s say in business, I want them to have happier lives. I want them to have better marriages, better friendships, uh, with their kids, with their, you know, their peers, you know, I want, I don’t want them just to be successful in business, man. I want them to be successful in every area of their lives and to experience the joy of fulfillment. RV (35:30): Yeah. I love that. I, I, AJ read a book recently by Craig Rochelle called winning the war in your mind. And, uh, she told me, she said, one, one of the quotes in there was that the devil’s greatest victory is, is convincing the world. He doesn’t exist. It makes me think of like what you’re talking about. It’s a prison you live in. You don’t even realize that it’s there is guiding your life. Um, you’re stuck doing things that you don’t wanna do when you, uh, and not doing the things you do wanna do really, really powerful stuff. Ian. So, um, the, the, the book, everybody. Okay. So the book is called the story of you, um, the podcast typology, where else do you want people to go, Ian, if you want them to like, learn more about, you get connected to you, like what’s the, what’s the best place, IMC (36:17): Right? So, um, obviously the road back to you and the story of you are both, uh, great assets. They can go to my website. I a N M O R G a N C R O N. And there, they can learn about courses. They can learn about, uh, you know, my Enneagram assessment. We’re just coming out now with a, in fact it may be available when, by the time that you, uh, you know, broadcast this, uh, this interview is called the I E Q nine couples report. So you could actually, you know, you’re an engram three, I don’t know what your wife is. Um, but let’s say she’s a six, I’m making this up. You would get a report that shows how three sixes get along, what their challenges are, what their assets are. And it, it’s a, you know, it’s like a 40 page report, so it’s not, you know, something that’s, uh, it’s robust, right. Um, they can learn about all kinds of, you know, my speaking, you know, op you know, options there. And of course, on social it’s at Ian Morgan PRN across all the channels. And, um, yeah, I think that, that, uh, that probably covers most of it RV (37:26): Really, really cool Ian. Well, um, I think what a great, what, what, what a great cause to dedicate your time and career to self-awareness and, and so clear and specific and actionable about the work you’re doing there and the power and the impact that it’s having. So there’s it, you know, it makes a lot of sense to me why it’s, it’s spreading. And, um, that makes me happy because it’s, it’s, it’s really, really great work. So thank you for making time to be here. We wish you all the best. We’ll continue to follow your journey and, uh, just, just keep helping people, my friend, IMC (38:00): Thanks B. This was a delight.

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