Ep 14: Different is Better Than Better with Sally Hogshead

Today we welcome true thought leader Sally Hogshead on to the show, where she drops all types of knowledge bombs! In our opinion, Sally is one of the smartest people in the world. She is a New York Times bestselling author and Hall of Fame speaker who has done campaigns for giants such as Mini, Nike, and Coca-Cola. She is also the genius creator of the Fascination Advantage Assessment, which is a personality test that teaches you how to find the special thing that separates you from everybody else in the game.

Sally tells us how she blew up after years below the radar. She started out with a creative mailer and business card strategy and then exploded onto the scene after releasing an image assessment test which took off like wildfire in sync with the release of her first book.

Sally also shares some legendary strategies for differentiating yourself, packaging your services to stand out in a field of expertise, and framing yourself as nothing short of indispensable to your clients. This is the kind of interview that can shift your entire perspective on how you approach your personal brand.

Sally is also giving you the opportunity to take her test absolutely free of charge. Just visit howtofascinate.com/you and use the code “bbg19” and you’re on your way!

WATCH THE INTERVIEW

LISTEN TO THE EPISODE BELOW

KEY POINTS FROM THIS EPISODE

  • Sally’s journey of putting in ten years of work without anybody watching before blowing up.
  • How Sally differentiated herself with a strategy that began by highlighting her clients’ brilliance.
  • The blue suitcase mailer and business card which lured clients by complimenting them.
  • Sally’s philosophy revolves around the idea: ‘different is better than better’.
  • Higher-income earners get paid for their personality more than their skill.
  • The Fascination Advantage Assessment helps one pinpoint their differentiators.
  • Sally’s assessment measures how the world sees you rather than how you see the world.
  • How Sally’s assessment became hugely successful and her journey to becoming world-famous.
  • Experiments are a very valuable part of building a personal brand.
  • How Sally’s assessment legitimized itself by measuring the difference over virtue.
  • The experience somebody has of taking Sally’s assessment (its branding) legitimizes it.
  • Using peer-reviewed analytics legitimized Sally’s assessment.
  • Sally’s assessment differentiates itself through isolating weak points as well as strong ones.
  • How Sally used her assessment as a way of building her personal brand.
  • Repackaging the same service yields higher profits.
  • The four types of competition: the expert, the most famous, the cheapest, and the pet.
  • Make the problem your brand solves seem scary to your clients so they can’t resist you.
  • High performers deliver a specific service and turn down opportunities that don’t require it.

TWEETABLES

“If we don’t know who we are, we can’t expect anyone else to know who we are.” — @SallyHogshead

“It’s good to be better, but it’s better to be different. Different is better than better.” — @SallyHogshead

“Personality tests are based on psychology, and psychology is great but it shows you how you see the world. What it lacks is the ability to show you how the world sees you.” – @SallyHogshead

“The ideal client leads to more of the exact work that you want.”  – @SallyHogshead

“Your personal brand is not valuable unless it solves a problem.” – @SallyHogshead

“The world is changed by people who understand who they are so that the world can exist at its best.” – @SallyHogshead

LINKS MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE

The Fascination Advantage Assessment

Dan Kennedy

Larry Winget

Malcolm Gladwell

Myers–Briggs Type Indicator

StrengthsFinder

Jason Dorsey

Speaker 1: (00:01) I am about to introduce you to, if you don’t already know her, maybe the smartest woman in the world other than my wife, like and Sally is just one of my dearest friends and colleagues in this space. You know, on the surface, Sally is a New York Times best selling author. She’s a hall of fame speaker. I mean, she literally speaks on the biggest and most prolific stages in the world. She has been on the today show, right? She’s done campaigns for mini Cooper and Nike and get dive in Coca-Cola. And you know, she is somebody that’s been in branding and marketing her entire career. She has built a monstrous personal brand and Sally is just someone who does it the right way and she’s a true thought leader. She has carved out,ua very unique expertise and just shifted the way that the world thinks about,uyou know, her, you know, her first book,ufascinate on recent book, how to make brand your brand impossible to resist. Uso she’s the creator of the fascination advantage assessment, which you all are gonna get for free. Just spoil spoiler, but you got to stick around code. Ubut she’s going to give it to y’all for free. And,ubut more than that, she’s just a dear friend and somebody that I go to when I Bison and learn from. So Sally, thank you. Speaker 2: (01:27) And, and likewise, I mean the conversations that you and I have, it seems like every three to six months we have an opportunity to sit down and really get into a meeting, have so much trust between us that we don’t have to sit there and do it. The caveats and the preamble. So I really appreciate that too. Speaker 1: (01:40) Yeah, well it’s, it’s an honor. So I want to picture you from the outside. I feel like had a very meteoric rise to success in the speaking world. Like you kind of came in a lot of speakers, you know, it’s like, you know, they’d say, Oh, I spent 2025 years before I was in the hall of that. But there’s, you know, you were working at this for a long time and I just want you to sort of think about, you know, that person that’s out there that wants to be where you are. Like can you just give us the, the, a story, tell us like how did it happen? Like how did you become the speaker, you know, creator of the assessment, New York Times best selling author. Like what was the journey like at a high level? Speaker 2: (02:24) It was it, it, it, you know, it looks from the outside, like it’s meteoric only took 10 years in the making. Just cause I was totally not on the radar. No, cause I didn’t want to be, but because I just didn’t really know how to crack into it. And you’re a couple of things that were massively formative for me is as a very dark times that turned into Epiphanes. One of them was when when, when I really wanted it to be a speaker and I actually had tried to make that shift from, Hey, I’m good in presentations to let me share a message with your audience for a fee. I I didn’t have a bestselling book yet and I didn’t have any context. I had no reputation in the, in the speaking world. And I I didn’t have a lot of the things that make it easy to take for granted. Speaker 2: (03:08) And so I took a step back and and I realized that, first of all, I was trying so hard to take other speakers and mimic them. I want to be as polished. This speaker, I want to have everything memorized that I had kind of out of fear become locked up. And I think that’s an easy trap to fall in is if we don’t know who we are, we can’t expect anyone else to know who we are. And so I was trying to outdo people at their own game. So I took a step back in 2012 and I thought, w what is it that I can bring to the party that other speakers can’t? And I realized there’s only one time that you have complete control of how other people are going to perceive you. There’s only one time when your brand is is in control. Speaker 2: (03:53) And that’s the first few seconds when somebody interacts with you or with your materials for the first time. And so so I created the most fascinating possible mailer that I, that I could, that showed up on people’s doorsteps. And the cool thing about the mailer, it was a, here’s what, so I mailed it out and blue suitcases that look like this. They were grew to be little suitcases. And then I had inside of the case I did an exploration of not me, but this, the recipient. Hey Roy, here’s is what makes you fascinating. You are consistently respected, you are classically admired, you are best in class. And then if you’d like to talk more about how I might be able to bring this in a speech, feel free to reach out to me. Here’s my private cell. So that, so, so that takes looking at that what I was doing was taking a little expertise that I have, which was branding and understanding that you need to instantly differentiate yourself. But applying it in a fresh way and this is something anybody can do. Whatever your background is, find find something in your history, a skillset, an aspect of your network and then find a way to apply it. Not to everything. You don’t have to have great website, great hold music, great team, great office space. You just have to have one highly different, Speaker 1: (05:16) I have to disagree with you. I have found that hold music is the single greatest key to get fees is good. Hold music while you’re on the phone. If you don’t have good hold music, you are going to epically fail. Speaker 2: (05:29) Well my favorite was my old client Buka devito where it was Italian opera playing in the bathrooms. So so another thing that I did was when I, when I created my business card, since the name of the company is fascinate, I had to do something fascinating. And so when I similarly to the blue suitcase idea, telling them about them, I created a business card that shows them it’s all about them. Hey, how do you fascinate? So then when I meet somebody, I can say, here’s what makes you fascinating worry. I happened to know yours. You, you build loyalty and you set the standard. So if I were to give this to you and I will, I’m just say if I were to give this to you, you fascinate with prestige and trust. Your archetype is the blue chip. What we found was a business card costs $2, but on average we made $64 in returns from every business card I gave out because people kept it. And it was a treasure. I didn’t have the money to pay for everything else extravagantly. But you don’t have to have the most business cards. You have to have the best one. And so I’m applying things from my own background. That was one way that I realized I don’t have to be better, but I do have to be different. Speaker 1: (06:41) Yeah, and you have a great quote. We might as well get it out there cause I say it all the time and I do cite you, but it’s, this is like a game changing paradigm. Shifting quote on this. Can you just like go ahead and drop the mic for us with your, your different and better your your asa fee on that. Speaker 2: (06:58) It’s good to be better, but it’s better to be different. Different is better than better. And this dates back to when I worked with challenge or underdog brands like mini Cooper trying to compete against VW. If you try to outdo somebody else at their own gate by being better than you, you will always win because somebody else can out outcompete you. But if you try to differentiate yourself, it makes it much easier for you to build a brand, build a company and empire around who you already are so that your personality isn’t a Bolt-on. Your personality is the main driver of your business. That’s how we, especially as entrepreneurs, we can show up and be focused and in the flow and competent and enlivened because we’re understanding the different is better than better. Speaker 1: (07:42) Yeah. And I think that that is such a powerful idea again of just like if you, if you become like you say this, the key to becoming fascinating is to, is to become more of who you already are. Speaker 2: (07:56) Yeah. Don’t change who you are, become more of who you are. Dan Kennedy also said it another way. He said the higher the income, the the more the person is paid for who they are and the less the person has paid for what they do. Who you are is highly differentiated. What you do is a commodity. So a dentist you do fillings, I do fillings, but what’s the value that you’re bringing there? That is the differentiator for your personal brand. And that’s always been helpful because if you focus on just trying to do what you do better then you’ll never really be able to scale and achieve the massive growth that I know anybody who’s listening to this wants. Even if it’s just having a message that makes a bigger difference in the world, don’t focus on what you do. Focus on who you are. Speaker 1: (08:43) Yeah. And do you think that this applies, you know, like obviously a lot of our audience are people who want to monetize their personal brand so they want to be speakers and authors and that, but it’s, it’s interesting to me that you, you go out and you speak in corporations about how to be more fascinating and why it matters. So this, this applies to corporate executives and people like climbing the ladder and like even if you’re working inside of a big company, you, you still feel like cause cause I think there’s, there is a, there is a strong overlap between reputation that we talk about and making it more fascinating. I think it’s like there’s a lot of overlap there. You feel like this applies in the corporate world even if someone’s not gonna build a social media following or whatever. Speaker 2: (09:27) Yeah. Well, here’s what I see is that the venn diagram overlap between reputation and what makes you fascinating. Reputation is a clearly established set of principles and beliefs and attributes that are clearly linked to you. So if somebody in the office says, you know what, we really need somebody with a specialty for details. If you have a reputation for being exceptional in the area of details, then that is your ideal project. If you’re a salesperson and you have a competitive advantage in being passionately, emotionally connective, your ideal client is going to be somebody who needs a salesperson who is passionately emotionally connected. So what, what the fascination advantage does is that it helps you pinpoint exactly what your differentiator is. Why should an ideal client work with you and not somebody else? How do you define a personal what we know we need a personal brand, but what is your personal brand and your personal brand? It’s as, as I know, you know, it’s not just the meetings you go into the presentations you go in, it’s who you are and how you move through life so that you can have the best connections you can because you’re making a bigger difference based on how you are different. Speaker 1: (10:44) Hmm. Yeah. I absolutely, I absolutely, I love that. And we’re going to talk about the fascination advantage here so that y’all can get this because Sally’s going to give you this assessment that you go through and it actually tells you, you know, like the, the, the phrase that we use is find your uniqueness, which is something I learned from Larry Winget years ago to find your uniqueness and explored the service of others. And so we do the work at brand owners group of just like all day, everyday trying to like dive in and figure out what is the uniqueness of each client. And your assessment really cuts to the heart of that and gives people some language. Yeah. Right up, right up front. So let me ask you that. So before, before we come back to that, when you, what do you feel like was your big breakthrough in terms of a personal brand? So like you mentioned before, you weren’t on off the radar for awhile and then all of a sudden you, you were, you were everywhere and do you feel like there was, you know, what was that big, what was that big moment like for you and how did that kind of happen? Speaker 2: (11:52) And in February of 2010, it was a really crappy time to release a high concept business book, which is exactly when my book fascinate came out. So I was sweating bullets cause it was the recession, nobody was spending money on this high concept Malcolm Gladwell type book. And so there were, you know how this goes, there’s, there’s about three months from the time that you’ve turned in the manuscript and you cannot touch it because it is being printed somewhere in a warehouse and then ships or large trucks are taking it out to the world. So I was, you know, just like gouging my eyeballs out with mechanical pencils. So I said, well, if the book is about fascinating, I know what makes brand fascinating. What if we created a way to measure what makes an individual fascinating? So I Kinda, I started, I took the research and I started looking at it and I realized that personality tests are based on psychology and psychology is great, but it shows you how you see the world. Speaker 2: (12:51) What it lacks is the ability to show you how does the world see you? In other words, how do people perceive you at your most valuable, your most exceptional? So I went back into my, my, my branding mindset. And brands have focus groups. Coke doesn’t care how coke sees the company. Coke only cares consumer coke only cares. How does the consumer see coke? So if you take the principles of a focus group and you apply it to a personal brand, you can actually measure that. And so I thought, well, when the book comes out in February, we’re where like there were, you know, crickets out there. When the book comes out, what if I had this assessment simply as a social media tool to get people to talk about this and sort of as like a launch buzz vehicle. So the assessment came out and within about three months we had like 30,000 people do it. Speaker 2: (13:44) I mean, this is before Facebook advertising. This was just organically, it was getting shared and it continued to live as there was no opt in, there was it, there was no click, we weren’t collecting any email addresses because we had no idea what an email list was. And then finally when we decided that this is really something that needs to have a bigger place in the world. So we started charging for it and turned it into an actual full report. And it was, it was, it was nerve racking that the first, the first couple of days I would get an email. Every time we made a sale and it was the first 12 hours, there was no sale and then a lonely ding. And the next day it was ding Ding until pretty soon my kids called it the dinner bell and a dignity naming thing. And so that, that was kind of a trajectory of realizing that the little weird experiments that you do are the most valuable part of your personal brand. Because if all you do is have one plodding strategy but you haven’t gotten feedback of how other people are going to respond to you that it, it’s crucial to have these little flares of of testing something. And that’s, that’s, I think that’s a great also part of what a brand builders group is doing that you’re actually giving people, not just the why, but the how. Speaker 1: (14:59) So can we talk about the assessment for a second? Like it’s, it’s amazing. And I know now it’s like extremely scientific and so many people, how many takes, how many people have taken this assessment Speaker 2: (15:10) Over a million. We stopped counting at a million. But yeah, Speaker 1: (15:14) That’s incredible. So I think, you know, assessments are really powerful because I just, people just like assessments in general and I think you know, the way that you did yours and positioned it also was powerful versus like Meyers brakes or strength finders or something where it’s like, you know, how you see the world versus how the world sees you. Yeah. Really Genius and, and, and, and very cool. How if somebody is out there and they have an idea for an assessment like they go, Gosh, there, there is something I would want to measure it. How do you go from the idea for an assessment to lay like this is a thing that people can take and how do you know if it’s like validated or you know, it’s legitimate or you know, like talk about that a little bit. Speaker 2: (16:01) Sure. Well the first thing that in creating an assessment is what do you want to measure? And I think this is a mistake that I see people make a lot is they’re like, I want an assessment, but they don’t really have anything they don’t have. They’re not, they don’t know what to measure. So they don’t have an outcome because they can’t help people move forward in an area. The second thing that I, that I see people make is once they figure out what they want to measure, like how likely are you to be successful in opening a small business or how likable are you with your team? Then they, they, it’s not just about measuring something, it’s about there has to be an experience that your personal brand is adding to why somebody should do this assessment. Let me say that another way. Speaker 2: (16:40) If somebody could take the assessment that you’re thinking about doing, take your name off, put their name on. You don’t have a branded assessment. So it’s, it has nothing to do with you, your business. It, it has to be that if you, if you took my name off the fascination advantage, it’s not like somebody else can put it on. And that was done very much on purpose that the experience of going through it. We had, we had a very clear creative brief and it was super geeky design experts who are voracious about helping you decide, helping you see who you are at your best. So everything we did was kind of like, like everything feels kind of Geeky and highly branded and scientific in making sure that we were using all the research that we had all the iconography and this is what I mean by the experience like having, if you, if you can provide an analytics of some kind, then it makes your assessment much more valuable because it’s not just going on your say so you can actually prove something. Speaker 2: (17:46) If you, if you describe, don’t just describe who they are, describe who they are not. So if you’re, if you’re giving somebody feedback, you are likely to be really exceptional in this area. Like in this case, somebody who’s massively forward thinking you are not going to be great in this area. Another thing that I did to differentiate the fascination advantage is I at no point I, I, I positioned it against other competing assessments. And this is a, this is a great key. As your assessment grows, you can’t say, I’m like Myers Briggs, just not as famous. We took the opposite stance and say, great, you have Myers Briggs, you have strengths finder. You don’t need to know any more about that. You don’t need to know how you see the world. You don’t need to know your strengths. You need to know your differences. And then that gives you a foil. Speaker 2: (18:32) And this is true for anything in your personal brand, just it’s just as important, just as it’s important to know who you are. It’s almost even more important to know who you’re not and why that matters for your ideal client. So our messaging, our positioning is if you want to know your strengths, there are a lot of other assessments out there. If you want to know your differences and not evaluate people on the basis of strengths and weaknesses and competition then then we’re the only assessment that can offer that. And so, so that can map onto anybody’s personal brand. If you are very much not this kind of thought leader you don’t have to dis them. It’s just you have this, but now let’s into why is what you have to say needed right now for the person that’s gonna buy you, hire you, sign up for you. Speaker 1: (19:19) Yeah. And I think this, this concept is something that is one of your superpowers. You have many, but I think one of your superpowers is like differential positioning, but it’s kind of like, I think you described it to me is one time, I think we were talking about maybe speaker fees or, or speaker and you, you’re like, you need to clean this up cause I probably not going to say it right. But it was, it was like you said, you need to be able to put yourself inside of a box that people understand, but then you need to be able to differentiate yourself from everyone else in that box. Speaker 2: (19:55) Yes. Yeah. That, that was an interesting interpretation. Where that came from was when I, I did a lot of research trying to understand why was I not getting hired and other people were making 20,000, $30,000 a speech. And so I started looking at what the most successful speakers were doing and I went on to all the speaker bureau websites and I started correlating those dropdown menu of topics. So education’s a topic, politics, economics, psychology, those are all topics. And I, and I measured that against the fee they could charge. I mean, the higher the fee, not just the more demand but more specialized they are. And I saw that people who were using the word innovation on average to describe their topic, made $5,000 more per speech than the people who are using the word creativity. Even though creativity and innovation are essentially the same topic, is just simply how you position it. Speaker 2: (20:47) Marketing, totally overused, branding, less used, but still really used fascination. Why are we fascinated by some brands and people? So, so I was still operating in the marketing box, but drilling down more deeply so that it can be very clear. I am not this, but I, I am this another thing, Roy, that you and I talked about one time that I think that was a really interesting conversation we had is that every time you’re putting yourself out there, especially if you’re, if you want a certain job or project or client there four people you’re competing against. Oh yeah. The first one, the first one is, is more of an expert. So they have that they’re more specialized than you. The next one is more famous. The third one is cheaper than you. Definitely don’t want to compete against that person. And the fourth one is the pet who’s, you know, we love Bob, we always work with Bob, the person who’s entrenched in some way. Speaker 2: (21:44) So the the specialists, the one is more famous, the one who is cheaper and the one is the pet. So when we think about our personal brand, we have to, we have to be able to buffer all of those. By you definitely don’t want to be the cheapest, but people will only pay you as much as they perceive you’re adding value. And ultimately you have to get somebody to sit their butt down and write a check for you and not for all of your competition. So the more that you can articulate and make it easy for people to know, why should they hire you right now versus hiring the cast of thousands that are out there the, the easier it is for you to attract your ideal client and your ideal client leads to more of the exact work that you want. Speaker 1: (22:27) Yeah. So there’s, yeah, I remember that there’s always someone smarter than you, more famous than you, cheaper than you, and more favorite than you. Hopefully not better looking than you. And that’s a good thing. But so, so where do you look for that differentiation then? Is it just in the words you use? Like how do you, how do you figure out, you go, okay, I’m a motivational speaker but I am not this, or I’m a sales speaker but I’m not this or I’m a business author. But I’m not this or I’m a spiritual author, but I’m not this, right. Is that just kind of like, is that kind of like take the assessment, start from where you are, like figure out, you know, what is really unique about you and, and, and build from there. Speaker 2: (23:14) A key lesson from worldclass brands, especially ones that are feistier that don’t have the biggest marketing budgets, is they don’t try to compete with the bigger budget or being better. It’s that you have to know how you’re different. But, and that’s how I, when I created the fascination advantage assessment that the key to the whole system is you have to be able to have one word that sums up exactly how you are different and why they should care. So when you took, when you took the fascination advantage assessment, we learned here you’re, you’re a blue chip, you are classic, established and best in class. So the light, this is the language that you had in your report. So where are you might say if you want to work with a brand builder who is classic, established and best in class, then I’m the best option for you. Speaker 2: (24:00) If you want to work with a brand builder who is bold, artistic and unorthodox, there are plenty of people that you could work with. But if you want somebody classic, established and best in class, then let’s talk. You could also say you don’t need, you don’t need a brand builder that is bold, artistic and unorthodox. The world is changing too quickly. Branding hasn’t evolved that much. We have to make sure that you can be classic, established and best in class. So think of it like that. Those are words that you plug into your marketing or you simply have it as a positioning. I am this, make a list, I am not this, make a list. A, and then your job is to be as much not this as possible. Speaker 1: (24:48) Yeah, that’s, that’s interesting. One of the things that we do. So when we do our strategy days or when people come come through you know, like one of our events is we take up your brand characteristics less than we say come up with a list of adjectives you want people to use to describe your brand. But what we haven’t done is say come up with a list of adjectives you never want people to use when describing your brand, which is what I’m hearing you say is like equally as powerful Speaker 2: (25:13) Is there. So I would say there’s a third category. Cause what you said is what you said is great. You, you would never want them to use this to describe your brand. What I was saying was slightly different, but I think as a third category, which is other people are this and that’s fine, but that’s not me. And I’ll never be this. And if a client hires me to be perfectionistic, meticulous on target, a redundant, practical, they shouldn’t work with me, but I can refer them to somebody else. On the other hand, what I would never be. So there’s your second column. What I would never be is the double trouble is like, I’d never want to be dominant, overbearing, dogmatic, startling, chaotic, arrogant, called superior. So here’s who you are, here’s who you would never want to be, but it’s kind of like the shadow of this [inaudible]. And then here’s what other people are other competitors that you can counterpoint yourself again. Speaker 1: (26:10) Yeah. Casa. So it’s so, it’s so good. Like it’s, and it’s crazy how much of this I’d say you and then one of my minor, my best buddies, Jason Dorsey. Speaker 2: (26:21) Yeah. Speaker 1: (26:22) I have both made such an impact on my speaking career just by helping me understand the value of positioning, where it’s like, oh yeah, innovation is worth twice what creativity is worth. Yeah. Same exact content, same space, same bios, everything. And that is about positioning, which is his, what is his so another thing I want to ask you, I don’t want to like, we’re running out of time. I’m trying to think of like, it’s crazy. I’ve got, I don’t even realize this until this interview. I have like a list of like the 25 top lessons I’ve learned from Sally Hogshead like I could write a book on these are like the key, like things that have helped me. There’s another phrase that you say and I think people need to hear this. And I don’t think you teach this formally, but this was like an a side conversation. You said raise the stakes or you have to learn how to raise the stakes that mean and how does that apply to like our personal brand? Yeah. Speaker 2: (27:23) Your personal brand is not valuable unless it solves a problem. Fascination. Everybody thought it was a frivolous term. Nobody saw, why do I need to be fascinating if I’m not at a cocktail party? And the answer is in a crowded, distracted, commoditized world, if you don’t fascinate, you will fail. You’ll lose clients, you’ll lose money, you’ll die cold in a lot. And really making the problem as painful as possible. So if you don’t know the problem that you’re solving that people, then you’re not worth the bigger check. The bigger the problem you can solve, the more, the more deeply scary. The problem is the better. I learned this from my original speaking coach, Nick Morgan of public words, and he back in like 2006 when I was trying to be a speaker in the old days. And he said, you’re trying to be liked. The more that you can make somebody uncomfortable about a problem, that they’re already nervous about something that’s already keeping them up at night, the more urgently they’ll want to work with you and the more they will pay you to alleviate that problem. Speaker 2: (28:24) So at the beginning of a book or at the beginning of a speech, at the beginning of the presentation, you know, you can greet everybody, but say here’s, here are the threats. These are the threats that you’ve faced. The three threats that I solve are distraction, competition, and commoditization. People aren’t listening to you. Your competition is getting better and nobody knows how you’re different than everybody else. So I recommend that you have three, what do I call them? Deadly threats. What are the three deadly threats that if they don’t have a solution to that problem, then like things are going to hit the fan and then, and then when you explain how you solve that problem, they already have an appetite. The way that the phrase Nick Morgan used was what is their problem for which you are the perfect solution? And when you define that, to me that was, that was, that was hugely transformational because I was doing fascination. Like what kinds of things are fascinating? Why do we pay more for this bottled water than that bottled water? And that’s a $5,000 speech. But when you say your company will go out of business, if you don’t understand how each person on your team has a unique competitive advantage that allows them to be hyper over achievers because they have a specialty that they can double down on one specific area that where they are very likely to over deliver. That’s a different, yeah, same topic. Speaker 1: (29:43) All right. Same topic. Yeah. You, CJ effectively you’re teaching the same content but the, the wrapper that you’re doing, it will change the context of which you’re presenting. And also like the awareness of which the audience is receiving that messages Speaker 2: (29:59) Much more heightened because they made it, you’ve made it more relevant. You’ve made it uncomfortable, you want people to be itchy, you want people to almost put the book down or walk out of the speech because they’re like, holy crap. One last phase of research of this ties into that I think is relevant to what we’re talking about is of the million people that we’ve measured, we looked at the high performers in every industry at every level, both genders, all geographies. And we said, what are the high performers doing differently about it was going to be linked to skills or network or education. And it wasn’t, it was not what the high performers did differently was two things. A, they delivered a very specific benefit. They did not try to be all things to all people. So first was specific benefit. In my case, a specific benefit would be different, different than yours. Speaker 2: (30:46) But is there a specific benefit that you’re meticulous or is it that you’re entrepreneurial and so on? The second thing that high performers did differently is they did it on purpose. They purposely tried to do step away from projects where they couldn’t over deliver. So the detail person wasn’t trying to be the cheerleader for projects. So so that’s that’s kind of the overlap with reputation is that you have to have a reputation for one specific area of specialty and you get to choose it because it’s a personal brand. But make sure it’s something that you want to live into for the rest of your career. Otherwise you won’t be confident and authentic and you’ll be wearing a very expensive masquerade [inaudible]. Speaker 1: (31:31) Yeah, I think about brand builders group, right? Like we, we made a decided, you know, several decisions early on, like one of them was we do exclusive personal branding. We do not work with companies. We only work with people. That was a very deliberate decision to go, we know that we can do this well for a person. We could probably do it for companies. A lot of our methodologies would apply to companies, but it’s like, that’s just not, you know who we’re going to be. I think Speaker 2: (31:59) So that a, so you’re doing with a company that’s highly specialized and you have your word, which is reputation. Yeah, yeah. The word is in the positioning. That repeat, if reputation is your business, then that informs who your clients are and even what your hold music is. Speaker 1: (32:14) Yes, it does. Well, and then you know, so like the way, the way we’re positioned right now, although it’s more of like internal moniker, so to speak, is that a obscurity is the problem we solve, which is to be unclear on trusted or unknown. So we say look, like if you don’t have the reputation, it’s either because you’re unclear. You’re, yeah, you can’t, when someone says, what do you do? You fumble like a, you’re untrusted. So they know you, but they don’t trust you or they just don’t know you. You’re flat out and visible. And so when I was thinking about your, your three, three deadly threats was sort of thinking about this. So, yeah, for all of you watching, this is really just a free coaching call for me. I’m glad that you’re all here, but this was just really a way to hook Sally and to be like, okay, what can I do to like get a free coaching for Sally? I know, I’m so seriously Sally, where, where do you want people to go to connect with you? And I know we’ve been teasing the fascination advantage they have to take it. Cause this is what we do. We help them find their uniqueness and it’s like they all should come to us with their word in hand, directly from you. So do you want to tell them where to go or do you want me, Speaker 2: (33:25) Yeah, I can tell it’s how to fascinate.com forward slash u y o u how to fascinate.com forward slash you. And then you put in your special code and your special code is BBG 19. All it does, it’s not case sensitive, but BBG 19 all one word. And then when I encourage you to do is after you take the assessment, have people around you take the assessments and you can start having the conversation of understanding, having a word to understand who somebody else is at their best, and then come back to BBG and, and up post in the comments what your result is so that so that we can start to learn more about you and you can start to learn more about other people in your world. Speaker 1: (34:12) Yeah, I absolutely, absolutely love it. I think the last thing I want you to just leave, leave people with Sally is you know, this thought about it, you are the way you become fascinating is that more of yourself? Why do you believe that and, and why do you think that matters? Eh, you know, and, and, and does it matter? I mean, there’s like a bazillion people on the planet. Why should anyone care to listen to me or my message or follow my social media when they can follow a bazillion other people? Speaker 2: (34:47) Well, growing up with the last name Hogshead, as you can imagine, that’s like a competitive disadvantage on the playground. And and I, I literally remember going in and crying to my mom, Mrs Hogshead saying, why can’t we have a name like Smith or Jones? And My mother said to me, it’s the thing about our name that makes it different, that will one day make you love it. Thing about you that makes you different is what makes people love you. And if we, you know, now my family, we have hogger fest twice a year to celebrate the birthdays of the grandkids and October is Homme Tober fest. But using that as an example, you don’t have to change who you are. You have to become more of who you are, specifically at your best. And that when you do that, it allows you to not not be beaten down by the mediocrity of trying to pretend that you’re something that you’re not, the world isn’t changed by people who sort of care the world. Speaker 2: (35:47) The world isn’t changed by people who aren’t passionate and who aren’t almost irrationally dedicated. The world is changed by people who understand who they are so they can help the world exist at its best. And that’s why I’m excited that you have maybe BBG on their eyes and I’m so proud of you. Like we talked about this over a year ago and it was a, it was this concept that you and Aja had had really thought through but really spent time thinking about what, not just what’s the positioning but the purpose, what’s the meaning of your brand? So I am, I’m psyched. Feel like Kinda like a, like a, like a little grandmother coming in and seeing how you’re doing. Speaker 1: (36:30) Well that is awesome Sally. Like thank you so much for your encouragement and your wisdom. There’s about 75 tweetable moments in this little interview that we are going to have to boil down to five, but we’ll put links so people can follow you. We’re certainly going to put a direct link for the fascination assessment and the code and everything so people can take it. And thank you for being fascinating, seeing the teaching all of us, how to be more fascinating by being more of ourself. We appreciate you so much. Speaker 2: (36:59) Thank you. Wonderful. Thanks Rory

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