We are back with a recap edition of the influential personal brand podcast. Talking about one of my favorite things to talk about, selling. One of the reasons I love to talk about selling is because everybody does it wrong. They either don’t do it, or they do it wrong. And I have some very pointed philosophies about the right way in the wrong way to sell. And I have to say, you know, this, this interview with Phil M Jones, who I’ve never interviewed before. I was so happy about we met, I don’t know, you know, several months ago at this point, but we haven’t been longtime friends. I’ve heard about him. And there’s a lot of stuff that is taught on the profession and the art of selling that I flat out disagree with that I don’t like that I, I don’t subscribe to and that I don’t follow.
And that AAJ doesn’t believe in that we don’t deploy with our team. I think we sell in a very non-traditional way. I would, I would call it a much more modern way than how most people sell, which is just, you know, it’s not about all the tactics and the pressure and the, you know, just pressure. Let’s just call it, leave it at that. And so getting to talk with Phil was great because I was so impressed at how much we aligned philosophically on a topic that a lot of times just don’t align with people on. And so anyways, it’s a fantastic interview of, of course he has that wonderful accent to listen to, and you know, make sure that you, you go back and listen to it, but I want to give you my, my highlights is always getting to play the role of student here, listening from Phil who’s, you know, done has helped so many people.
And, and he’s got a great thing going with exactly what to say. And I think a lot of these things were reinforcements for me because I don’t really talk sales that much anymore. Not, not like direct tactical, like one-on-one selling, but that was, that was where my upbringing came from. I mean, that was how I started in business. I mean, I, I started going door to door. I mean, it doesn’t get much more like old school hardcore selling than that. I mean, in terms of dealing with the rejection and, and whatnot. And so I love this, and it’s been a long time since I’ve, I’ve talked about this and, you know, we have an event coming up you know, a new curriculum that we’re developing this year that is on sales specifically in selling high dollar offers, because we’re realizing that gosh, all of our personal brand, you know, clients need this help of, of what to say and, and how to have a one-on-one conversation that leads to a credit card.
And so we’re diving into this more, although we’ve left it alone for, you know, the last few years. And so it was great, you know, to, to do this with Phil and, and just walk you through my three, my three big takeaways, obviously you may have noticed AJ is not here today. So I’m filling in rolling, rolling solo. You got the, you know, I’m your, I’m your guy for today, which is a shame by the way, because AJ flat out is the single greatest salesperson that I have ever met. She is extraordinary. And she is so client-centric and, and so service centric and, and is just the epitome. I think of all things of what a great professional sales person should look like. And she outsold all of the top salespeople that I’ve ever known and ever been around. And so at some point we’ll have to get AJ back here to do an episode.
Maybe we’ll do a special episode on selling or maybe I’ll just interview her, her because it’s, it’s, she’s incredible. Well, but anyways, to break down the takeaways from Phil M Jones and who I really enjoyed learning from here they are. So number one and all of these, by the way, all of these are mental. And that’s what I have found this to be true about selling in general, the reason that people struggle with sales is not because of technical training. It is because of mental conditioning, their mind doesn’t think of it, about selling in the right way. And all three of these takeaways for me, kind of fall in suit with that. So, number one, and this is a mindset thing that you got to realize if, if you’re the sales person, no is not the enemy. Indecision is the enemy.
Somebody telling you no is not a bad thing. No means it’s not a fit. No means we don’t have a match. No means not right now. No means this, this, this, isn’t what I’m looking for. All of those things allow you to move forward in a powerful way to know what to do. Next indecision is the enemy in decision is what keeps us stuck in decision is unacceptable. Both for you and get this for your prospect, right? If somebody tells me no, I can move on. But if someone tells me, maybe I am stuck, I am not moving forward. Like I can’t move on. And, and I, you know, I, I can’t move. I can’t move onto something else. I am literally just stuck until they make a decision, which means I’m playing cat and mouse. I’m chasing them down. Right. And so many salespeople are afraid of the word, know that we do everything that we can to avoid the word.
No. And instead we set ourselves up for maybe. And what I would encourage you to do is set yourself up to hear no so that you don’t hear maybe a yes is good. Like a, yes is great. A yes is what we’re going for. Yes. This is what we want, but at no is fine. I know it’s okay. I know it’s not bad. I know is not the enemy, but in decision, Ooh, indecision is no way. No indecision is not good. Indecision is not acceptable because not only does it keep you as the sales person stuck, right. I don’t know whether to like celebrate and get this client activated or to, to, you know, close up shop and move on and go find someone else I’m like stuck in this limbo. I can’t move forward, but it’s not just about you. It’s and more importantly, it’s not about you.
It’s about them. It is a disservice to allow someone to tell you, maybe it is a disservice to them. Why? Because they can’t move forward either. Right? Like if they tell you, yes, it’s like, great. Let’s do this, right. If like, you know, just to use us as our company, brand builders group, as an example, since that’s a frame of reference, right? Like if someone says, I am ready for personal, I want to take my personal brand to the next level. I’m ready to grow. I’m ready to monetize. I’m ready to like build my speaking career, launch my book, you know, whatever, become a bestseller. Right? My Ted talk, like build out my digital marketing system and they go, you know what? Brand builders, I like you, I believe in you, I’m on board. Let’s do this then. Great. They can move forward. We can move forward.
That’s exciting if they say no, right. If they go, Hey, you know what? I don’t think you’re the right firm for me. Okay. No problem. You know what this, you know, I’m not going to, I’m just not going to move forward with my personal brand at this time, period. Okay. No problem. You know what? I’ve decided to do some, do something else fine. But if they say, you know what, let me think about it. That is terrible because that means they’re stuck. They’re not moving forward. They’re there. They’re not moving forward with us getting into action mode. And like, let’s do this. Let’s go. Or they’re not moving forward with someone else. It’s like their dream isn’t moving forward. Their dream is stagnant. Their dream is stuck because you have allowed them. The indulgence of that’s no good your job. And then this is, so then I’ll say this is a second tech.
So the first takeaway is realizing no is not the enemy, right? No. Is an inevitable byproduct of getting to yes, no happens because not everyone is a perfect fit for what you do. No is a necessary part of, of the process. But, but maybe is no good. We don’t want maybe yes, yes is great. No is fine. Maybe not good. Keeps them stuck. Keeps you stuck. Which leads me to the second big takeaway from that chat with Phil, which is just the way that you think about what you do is sales. If you, and here’s what it is, I’ll give you the takeaway selling is about helping people make smart decisions. That’s the way that that’s the way that Phil said it. Helping people make smart decisions. I would just say selling is about helping people make the right decision for themselves, not for you, but either way.
It’s about helping people make decisions. Why? Because people need help making decisions. That’s why like people struggle with procrastination. That’s why I wrote my take the stairs book. Like procrastination is something that we all struggle with and, and take the stairs was all about helping people overcome it. Because even in our own life, we naturally default to inaction. I mean, we live that the escalator mentality is pervasive it by subconscious. It happens automatically. We default to inaction. So in order to help someone change their life in order to help someone get something different in order for somebody’s life, to be better than it was, they’re better tomorrow than it was yesterday. There has to be some change in action. And my job as a salesperson is not to take something that they don’t want and use magical words to convince them they should get it.
That’s not ethical persuasion. We believe in ethical persuasion that isn’t ethical, taking some convincing somebody to get something that they don’t want, or they don’t need is unethical. That is taking advantage of them. That is using the psychology of influence. It’s using the principles of persuasion in a negative way. We are not on board with that. I don’t care how much commission you make from it. We’re not a fan. We’re not on board. And our sales team knows they better not sell anything to somebody that isn’t a fit for us because that’s just not what we believe in. But we do believe that people need help making decisions. They need help navigating uncertainty to arrive at a place about what is good for them. And sometimes that means they, you need to look them right between the eye and you need to tell them to their face.
You should buy this because it’s the right decision for them. Not for you. It’s all about them. It is helping them in a standing in service of them, standing in a place of helping them achieve their goals, their best interests. That is what ethical persuasion is all about. That is what we believe in. But, but know this. It’s not an excuse for you to WiSci out as a salesperson. All right. Sometimes it means it. Sometimes it does mean pushing them a little bit and saying, this is a good thing for you. You’re saying you want this, right? You’re saying you have a dream of inspiring millions of people. You’re saying that you want to make money to have a lifestyle business, teaching what you know, and doing what you love. You’re saying that you believe that we have answers for it. Then you’re telling me that you have the money. Let’s do this. Let’s go. You need to do this. That’s different than, than, than talking them into something that they don’t want, but people need help making decisions.
I would say that as a professional salesperson, your job isn’t to be a pro a smooth talker. Your job is to be an expert listener. And it is to help people figure out what do they want? What do they need? Where are they? What’s the gap between where they are and where they’re trying to go and help them make a good decision. And if that decision does not include you or your product or your service, you should be okay with that use, you should be willing and be okay with people telling you no. And in fact, you should not want the wrong people to tell you, yes, you should not hope for the peop the people who aren’t the right fit to give you money, because that doesn’t help you. What you need is the people who are the right fit to give you money, because they will take action.
They will do the thing that you have because it’s an alignment with what they need. And so they will get results and they will, and it will work and they will be grateful and they will be happy. And they will refer you people. What you don’t want is just a bunch of people you took advantage of because you talked them into it. That’s not what you want. Even though in the short term, it’s like that pays you money. That’s not really what you want. That’s not how you build lasting reputation. So what you’re looking for here is mutually agreeable outcomes, which is, you know, I think that’s the term that Phil used mutually agreeable outcomes. And I hundred percent agree. That is what we’re after now. Sometimes people, you know, sales, like sometimes the customer will talk you into doing stuff you don’t do.
We’re not a fan of that either, just because we can do it doesn’t mean we should, like, we’re not a fan of selling a custom solution to every single person. Right? We have some offerings and it’s like, if our offering isn’t a fit, even though you need our expertise, if it, if you want it in some other way, like we don’t do it. Then, you know, like brand builders, we do one-on-one coaching. Like that’s like our lane, we do it. You know, we have our events, which, but those are a part of one-on-one coaching. And even at our events, our events are so small because we put people in round table groups, they get one-on-one coaching at, in their round table groups. So like, one-on-one is what makes us as a part of what makes us unique. So, you know, there is a range of acceptability of which we will kind of bend and flex, but at some point it’s like, you offer, you have what you have.
And people either are a fit for that, or they are not. And if they’re not, you gotta be okay with that. But it’s mutually agreeable outcomes, right? What works for you as the provider, right? Like this is what you have to offer. And then it’s like, what does the client need? If that’s a match, we have a win. If it’s not a match, then it’s disjointed. It’s disconnected on either side and it should be a no, right? Like we don’t believe that you should try to sell every single person you talk to necessarily. We believe that you’re looking for the right fit. You’re looking for the right match. Because just because you can sell them, if you know, on the back end, what you deliver, isn’t what they need. Like, you’re, you’re gonna win in the short term, but you’re going to lose in the long-term.
So help people make smart decisions. We’re looking for mutually agreeable outcomes. It’s, it’s more like we’re looking for a match, right? It’s almost like dating. It’s like, we’re looking for compatibility more than we’re looking for manipulation or conviction convincing. Or, you know, even though we talk about like with digital marketing, we’re always talking about conversion. That still should be a win-win. It’s not about magically taking somebody who should be a no and turning them to the, yes. We don’t consider that a victory. What we consider a victory, right? It’s not a win, lose thing. If sales is a win lose, like I beat you. I got you. Right. That is not what we believe in that is not ethical. Persuasion. Sales should be a win-win thing. It’s right. And not even that, it’s really just a win. If it’s a win for the customer, it’s a win.
Right. But there’s no way the customer ever loses. And then that’s a win. What, what is the right thing as what is the best thing for them? If that happens to include us, then that is awesome, right? Like we’re of course we’re excited about that. But our job is not to coerce people. Our job is to serve people. Our job is to help them make decisions. And if you can flip that switch in your brain, you won’t have call reluctance. You won’t have fear. There is no fear when the mission to serve is clear. You only feel fear when you feel pressure to convince somebody of something. Well, you know, if I have to convince you of something against your will, that’s combative. That is confrontational. That is conflict. Yeah. There’s, there’s pressure there. But if all I have to do is serve you. Right.
And it’s like, I’m bringing you food. And it’s like, do you like it? Yes or no. If so, here it is. If not, no, you don’t. It’s like, there’s no personal rejection in that. It’s just service. Like that is a big, an important switch. And then the third takeaway, which if you didn’t, you got to listen to that interview with Phil all the way to the end, because at the end we got into like some very specifics about marketing. Like you know, we’re talking about keynotes specifically. And I mean, to, to his, to his brand, he gave some really great one-liners of exactly what to say and, you know, selling yourself as a speaker. So this would apply. I think this was what we were talking about selling high-dollar keynotes, right? Because Phil and I are both in a, in a pretty top tier keynote fee range, but this would apply to selling a high dollar coaching program, selling high dollar consulting, selling any high dollar offer, selling high dollar or you know, medical services, right?
Like any, any high dollar offer. And, and here’s what, here’s what he said. He said, remember when you’re selling a speech, because that was the context, it’s not just about selling your content. It is your content plus their circumstances. And I would probably modify that ever so slightly. I would just say, it’s your content applied to their circumstances, right? Like that’s a part of what the artful selling is specifically with it. Anything that’s like information marketing related or thought leadership related or con you know, consultancy related is it’s not just, Hey, I’m, I’m an expert on blank. It’s, you’re struggling with this. And here’s how I think my expertise would apply. It’s more like we’re working together to, as a team, to help in a, in a partnership to help me apply, you know, what I’m doing to your situation, to help your people again, it’s, it’s like we’re working together for your benefit.
That’s what selling is. It’s not me convincing you, that you need what I have. It’s it’s me working with you to figure out, can we take what I have and make your life better? That’s the difference that is ethical persuasion. And I would say that is professional persuasion. Like that is what the best elite sales performers on the planet do because they get so many referrals and they have so much reputation. Like you become a top producer, not just by being a great producer for one conversation or one year. It happens over time because you develop a reputation and a confidence and an air for knowing like, I know who should buy and who shouldn’t. And I am a consumer, like I am consultant. I’m trusted. I have expertise. Not only in what I do, but expertise in helping people determine about whether or not I’m the right fit for them.
And that takes time. So it’s your content, your expertise applied to their circumstances, right? To their it’s, to their goals, to their dreams, to their future. It’s not about you. It’s all about them. That is what ethical persuasion is all about. And that is how you take the pressure off yourself. There is no fear when the mission to serve is clear. So next time you’re in a high dollar selling situation. Make sure you’re not thinking about what you want and your commission. And are you saying the right thing? Just focus on service. That’s all we’ve got today for the into influential, personal brand podcast recap. We’ll catch you next time. Stay tuned.