Ep 414: How Personal Brands can Develop More Grit and Perseverance with Bianca Olthoff
RV (00:02):
Oh my gosh, Bianca Olthoff is fire. You are about to experience fire, and I’m so excited about it. So I met Bianca, honestly, we shared the stage together at this event called the Global Leadership Summit, which is probably the biggest speaking event in the world. And I saw her and I was like, gosh, she looks a lot like Jasmine Starr. And I was like, I swear they look a lot alike
RV (00:49):
And now I’m following Bianca. And I just, I love Bianca’s content. And she has a book coming out called Grit Don’t Quit. And we’re gonna talk about this today. This is the topic of perseverance. Now this is Bianca’s third traditionally published book. Her first two books have done great. And she is a bestselling author. She is also a lead pastor of a church. So we’re gonna hear probably a little bit about that, maybe a little bit about speaking in the kind of the Christian circuit and Christian conferences. But mostly I want her to talk about how do we persevere and how do we overcome when we wanna quit? And anyways, we just become friends and I feel like she’s family even though we’re really technically meeting for the first time. So, Bianca, welcome to the show.
BO (01:35):
I am so excited. And with that introduction, I mean, I’m ready to throw some fire here. I mean, en Fugo. All right, we’re gonna have some fun. I’m gonna light some stuff up.
RV (01:44):
So, all right. So tell me, let’s talk about perseverance and grit, I guess, and walk me through what, walk me through your definition of what is grit? Why are you writing this book? How did this all come about?
BO (02:01):
So let’s start from the nitty gritty, if you will. I think over the last couple years, I have seen so many friends and so many people that are in the same field or people of faith that have just given up. And it’s so easy in our culture and society right now to throw in the tell, if you will. And I didn’t realize how pervasive the message was until I came to some really hard blows the last couple years. And I was having a conversation with a friend and she was going through a divorce, and I’m looking at her and I’m wa we’re walking through this really dark valley, if you will. And sure. She looked at me from across the coffee table and she said, well, I’m just not like you. I go, what do you mean? She’s like, well, because of your life and your background, like you just were forced to be resilient.
BO (02:48):
Like, I’m not born like that. And then I was hit with the reality that I think people think that resilience and grit is something that you’re born with, not something that you build. Hmm. And so a little bit of context. I know that you’re a good friend with Jasmine, and you know a little bit about this, but for those that are listening to the podcast, and I am new to them, new friend my background is peppered. I am a daughter of immigrants, and we are a large Hispanic family on one income, a dire straits being raised in urban environments. I like to say like we put the urban in suburban and our family was raised in East Los Angeles. See, west LA is where all the fancy bougie people were. We’re in East la. So Jasmine and I, I don’t know if you even know this, but Jasmine and I struggled academically to read right and spell.
BO (03:36):
We were I litter at the age of 12. I th Oh, and couple this with being obese and homeschooled and people of faith living in a non-faith culture. Mm-Hmm.
BO (04:21):
And I’ve read so many books. I mean, Dr. Angela Duckworth’s book Grit was phenomenal. I loved it. It was amazing. Changed my life. It came out like 66, 7 years ago. But one of the things that when I closed the book, I realized, okay, so she defined grit, but she didn’t teach me necessarily how to build it. And she gave so many different examples of people that were like gritty. And she gave medical analysis and, and, and psychological understanding. But I left the book feeling very inspired, but I didn’t have practical handles. I’m the girl that likes to put the cookies on the lower shelf
RV (05:25):
Yeah. And and personal brands is something you, you, you understand, you know, this intersection, right? Like, talk to me about some of the endurance that you’ve had to have to build your personal brand. I mean, you’ve got so many file followers online. You’ve got this thriving church, this thriving community. You’ve got three books. You self-published a book and then, and then two books that you wrote, and now this is your third. Like, how do you think this applies specifically to the personal brand journey?
BO (06:03):
You know I never set out to try to build something, and the least of that was to build a brand for myself. However, I have a wonderful sister who was like, Bianca, it’s you. You are building something. You are building. I am a woman of faith. And so forever out there that may not share that I, I totally understand it, but this is my journey, so I’m gonna give you a little peek. So I started teaching bible studies and my sister was like, Bianca, I really do think that you need a website cuz you’re basically like that person that’s selling fake rolexes, like a fx in an alleyway out of the trunk of a car. Like you have to legitimize yourself. And that simple conversation really sent me on this journey to be like, you know what? I am very proud of the abilities and the skills that I’m cultivating been given and are wanting to increase and get better.
BO (06:49):
So like, why not put intention behind everything that goes out there? Not just my words, but also what’s associated with that. And so it’s been wildly, wildly important. I think for those that are not familiar with the faith space it’s been largely dominated by men and largely dominated by a certain type of men. And so for me to come in it, I, I kind of stick out like a sore thumb. But that’s actually worked in my favor now because in building a brand, I realize that not everyone likes vanilla ice cream. Not everyone likes chocolate ice cream. Some people like cookie crunch, malted cookie crunch, and some people like bubble gum ice cream. Some people like Get ready pistachio ice cream. I just realize that I might not be everyone’s flavor, but the people who are out there that like my favor, they will love this ice cream.
BO (07:31):
So I’m going to build a brand, whether that is in visual assets, digital assets, audio assets or, or biblical assets. I want it to reflect a person, the person who I am in the best form. And again, if I like putting things on the lower shelf, the cookies on the lower shelf I wanna make, whether it’s brand building or biblical principles as easy for people to understand. So I’m passionate about it, I love it. And also my background is in art. So when she started talking about brand building, I kind of viewed it as like painting a portrait. And any portrait that lasts is gonna have a je eso underneath that is like a primer. And I think that brand building needs to have that brand building is the primer. If you want something to last, you need a good primer. If you want your business to grow, you have to have a good brand. So I view it like that.
RV (08:14):
Yeah. Well, and I just, I think people don’t realize how much the road to building a personal brand is just littered with rejection and self-doubt and going, you know, you get turned down for this speaking gig and this, this literary agent tells you your idea will never sell. And this publisher says the book is no good. And you know, you do this email campaign and nobody buys and you, you know, spend your, all your money on a website and then like it doesn’t work. And there’s just, there’s just, to me, this is such a, such a walk of perseverance and grit just to even be in the game, right? Like just to, even to just to even have a chance. You, you, you have to go. So I, I know you talk a little bit about neuroscience specifically and the connection to grit. Can you take us, take us a little bit into that, cuz I kind of feel this as like, you, you mentioned Angela Duckworth as sort of like the handoff of going, you know, there’s this academic piece of grit and, and then, you know, we’re gonna talk about, I wanna talk about the three piece of perseverance and all that, but there’s sort of like this, this piece of neuroscience. And tell me about how the neuroscience of our brain connects into us being gritty.
BO (09:34):
Okay, so you said before we went live on this podcast, you said that you were a nerd and I am a nerd. So from one nerd to a nerd. Nice. We’re gonna nerd move about for a second.
RV (09:43):
Nice
BO (09:43):
Neuroscience in the study of the brain and neuropathy is something that’s becoming more on the forefront of everyday nomenclature, language vocabulary. Like we’re understanding it more. And so for those not familiar with it, the, the easiest way to kind of break it down is neuropathy is this study of like our, the brain grooves. The grain brain pathways. And so in taking a little bit of neuroscience background and applying it to the idea of grit is that no matter what failure comes our way, we get to determine what we tell ourselves about that failure is that, do we say our failure is final or failure is part of the process. And every time that we choose a different narrative, one that is life giving one that is believing that the best is yet to come, as cliche as that sounds, we’re actually building neuro pathways in our brain that can actually rewire our brain to have us view situations like perceived failure or maybe being dismissed by somebody or being rejected or not g getting the job.
BO (10:44):
We can rewire our brain with truth when we tell ourselves, this is not the end of me. Mm. When we tell ourselves that this is actually strengthening me. And when we do that, it’s not. And this is the difference between just so you know, like, oh, positive confession, I’m just gonna will myself to think this. It’s actually knowing that there is a purpose for this failure. I mean, this goes into, I think when we talk about perseverance, when we talk about grit, it feels very nebulous. Like what does that really even mean? And I love some science that’s coming out of Harvard right now. Actually it’s, it’s act probably about a decade old, but I think it’s just gaining popularity that when we try to talk about the word resilience, what are the components of resilience? You had mentioned the three Ps and we can talk about that in a second.
BO (11:30):
But I think that’s been really pivotal in like how I understand failure because it’s perspective, it’s the ability to pivot and then there’s the purpose component. That has been wildly just fascinating to me because it’s changing the way that I think. And by changing the way that I think it changes the way that I live by changing the way that I live, it changes how I lead. And so I think all of it is interconnected and it begins with this rewiring of the brain. And that’s been really fascinating to, to un uncover. And I go a little bit into it. It’s only one chapter that I talk about that I talk about it in the book, but I think it’s so important, the power of what we’re thinking, the power of what we’re saying, the power of what we’re believing about, what perceived failure actually means in our life.
RV (12:13):
Yeah. I think that and that it was empowering for me to sort of wake up and realize this idea that it is up to me to define the way I think about what has happened to me. Right? You don’t always get to cho choose what happens, but you get to choose how you respond to it. And, and more specifically how you process it, how you, the, the story you tell yourself about what happened. One alternative is, man, I’m a total failure
RV (13:20):
Like this is making me so resilient cuz there’s so much, so much rejection. So let’s do, let’s walk through the, the three piece cuz I know that there’s people out there, whether it’s an author, you know, who feels hopeless about how do I get this book out into the world or the attention of a publisher or an aspiring speaker or a lot of, you know, maybe it’s coaches going, how do I just, I I need more clients and I feel like I I I don’t know where they’re gonna come from. Or we also have, you know, a lot of professional service providers that are, you know, part of this community of lawyers and accountants and doctors and things where they might just be feeling burnt out. Right? I’m just going like, I don’t wanna keep going. Like I’m already, I’ve been going for so long and I’m burnt out. So walk us, walk us through the three P’s.
BO (14:08):
Okay. So before we dive into that, you had said something that was so impactful and I don’t want someone to miss this. It’s like the podcasters flipping it on the podcaster, but you said something so good that I think people need to hold onto. You had 20,000 doors that you knocked on and you had so many nos and so many slammed doors in your face. Uhhuh
RV (14:34):
I cried every freaking day, every day I cried
BO (14:54):
That resistance is the thing that builds resilience. And so I think that the door slammed in our faces mm-hmm.
BO (15:38):
And so again, cookies on the lower shelf friend, I made them all start with P because I was raised on Sesame Street and p is the letter for the day. Okay? So of the first P of resilience is the understanding of perspective. So perspective is, and this is where we get into like the neuro pathways and what so perspective would pause and say, okay, even though this is bad, whatever the bad is, you didn’t get the job, the pitch in the boardroom epically failed. The C-suite that you wanted was taken by someone who everyone thought was more qualified. Whatever your perceived failures, your perspective is like your per your chosen perspective. You can walk in and say though that it’s not now that doesn’t mean that it’s not e never your perspective will shift and say, what are areas of growth in my life that I maybe don’t see?
BO (16:24):
Your perspective would say, Hey, this is resurrecting something in me that I would like to work, work through with a trained professional. I’m gonna go see a therapist perspective is saying, what am I not saying? And then perspective allows you to pivot the who are, what’s the characteristics of people who are resilient. Not only do they have a healthy perspective of life and themselves, they have the wild ability to pivot to say though this is not working. I am going to turn and I’m gonna go in a different direction and I’m gonna make this work when life gives me lemonade. Life can me lemons. It’s not just for lemonade. It’s so that I could save the seeds and plant these seeds in the future for trees that will produce more lemons in my life. This is the ability to pivot. The French word is brico.
BO (17:03):
Most people are familiar with like collage, but brico is when we’re taking different strands of different things and we’re making something beautiful. This is the lemons to lemonade. Those resilient people will just, will have an ability not only to have clear perspective, but the ability to pivot. And then last and finally is an understanding of purpose. So if you’re familiar with the Austrian psychiatrist out of Auschwitz that survived the Holocaust, oh my gosh, why am I blanking on his name? Please help me. Rory. Do you know what I’m talking about? It’s brilliant.
RV (17:34):
Victor Frankl. Victor
BO (17:37):
Frankel. See, I knew what you came through. You are, come on homie. You are a homie. Who is
RV (17:40):
Vic? Who is Victor Frankel for 500. Yes.
BO (17:44):
Yes. Well done. You’ll win Jeopardy. You’ll be my phone a friend. Okay. So Vi Frankl really helped frame this understanding of acar pain having purpose. Nobody wants to say that. And again, it sounds so cliche, but what he did is he found that people that understood that their pain actually produced a purpose in their life. That they went on to live not only more fulfilled lives, but more successful lives. And I think wow, if we’re giving people handles on how to be resilient, it’s those that have a healthy, healthy perspective on self and life, have the ability to pivot and then can see a greater purpose beyond whatever trauma trial or tribulation has faced them. That’s what makes me passionate and that’s what makes me so excited. I’m like, wait, there’s actual he handles to build this for our lives.
RV (18:27):
Yeah. And these, these are so good because I you know, like with perspective, part of how I’ve always thought about it is like if you have a flat tire, that seems like an awful event. But one day when you go to heaven, if you real, if you learn back and you go, oh, that flat tire actually prevented you from a fatal car accident mm-hmm.
RV (19:03):
All that has changed is your perspective. Mm-Hmm.
BO (19:47):
Unan answer prayers
RV (19:48):
Thank you Jesus.
BO (20:08):
All things work together for good
RV (20:10):
In all things. Yeah. God wor things work together, together for good, for those who love God and called his purposes or something close to that. There’s is that you can choose to go, even though this awful thing has happened. Yeah. There’s gotta be some payoff as to why. And, and, and it is always the way, right? Like you can look back on things that happened 20 years and go, man, I actually am quite thankful that I got fired from that job. Like mm-hmm.
BO (20:51):
All, first of all, you are taking us to church today. Okay. I’m about to bring my podcast Oh yeah.
RV (21:24):
Oh, you’re talking to me? Yeah. Oh. Well, I, it’s funny. I would, my honest answer to that would be programming. It would be programming going back to the, to the, to the neuroscience neuro
BO (21:37):
Pathways.
RV (21:37):
Yeah. We, we, we used to, they, they taught us to say this, this phrase, the answers behind the next door, the answers behind the next door, the answers, the answer to every problem is behind the next door. And they like beat it into our heads. Whoa. And I, I actually would say it out loud between houses, the answers behind the next door, a always. And so I would say it was less of a feeling. I never felt like going to the next door. It was more of realizing, okay, my brain is a computer system, it’s going to do whatever it’s trained to do, and I need to program my brain that whenever something bad happens, the answer is behind the next door. So to just keep going. And, you know, I I would also say, you know, to that person that’s listening right now going, if, if they’re sitting there thinking, oh yeah, you know, this is all nice and tidy, wrapped up in a bow, like your pain turns into purpose and perspective, what I would say is just create an alternative version of how the story could end, right?
RV (22:38):
So if you’re sit, if you’re sitting on the corner with a flat tire right now, it, it, it, it feels awful, right? Like, I’m not telling people to fake their emotions. Like, it sucks when someone slams the door on your face. It sucks when you have a flat tire. It sucks when somebody dies. It sucks when you get fired. But, and this is part of where, for me, I think faith comes into it, which is in all things God works for the good of those who love him and who are called according to his purpose is to go. I am consciously choosing to believe that even though I can’t see it, even though I don’t understand it, even though I don’t feel it right now, what is a potential explanation for how this could be used for good? Or even just having the thought that it could somehow be used for good, I think gives you enough to go to, to go to the next door to go, yeah, I don’t understand it, but I’m just gonna keep going versus otherwise, I’m, I’m just searching for an explanation. And the explanation is, oh, I suck. I’m not worth it. I’ll never succeed. You know, I have bad luck. So I, I love what you’re saying there about perspective and purpose and I mean, those, those tie together really, really, really well. Well,
BO (23:50):
Thank you for knocking on the 20,000 doors because I think that what you’ve learned in that, in that season has equipped you to help so many other people in their season of not wanting to knock on the next door.
RV (24:02):
Well, thanks, Bianca. I mean, I think I, I think this is the not, I think I’m a hundred percent certain. I, you know, I’ve now interviewed thousands of people between my various podcasts over the years. This is a hundred percent the story of success there. I have not found one person who has been extremely successful who doesn’t have some version of that story. In fact, in your book you talk about Paul from the Bible, and this is, I know it’s a, I mean, hey, you’re a pastor, like, there’s gonna be a few biblical references. So
RV (25:04):
So can you like describe why you chose Paul as an example of this?
BO (25:09):
Well, I refer to Paul as my Bible boyfriend. I just feel like there is no one else and the page. And yes, my husband is aware that I have a crush on a
RV (26:07):
And before this, he’s a murderer. He’s a, he’s a, he is murdering Christians, persecuting them. Mm-Hmm.
BO (26:30):
So he’s the prosecutor and the prosecutor against people of the way as in those following Jesus. So he is on his way, he’s breathing hot threats down the neck of believers, and he’s stopped, he’s halted on the Damascus road in the desert, dusty, dirty road. And he has an encounter that really changes his life. And suffice it to say you can read his story all throughout the pages of scriptures, but the man goes on to Penn, two thirds of the noon testament, and the one who was a prosecutor and the prosecutor against the people that were people of faith. He becomes one of the, if not the chief crafter of our theology that we understand today. Now that sounds lovely. When we say theology, we think of like an ivory tower. No, this man was beaten. This man was stoned. This man was imprisoned multiple times.
BO (27:19):
This man had allegations come up against him. And there’s this one one specific account where he is just falsely charged. He’s put in a boat, he’s sent over on his way to Rome, their ship wrecked, their ship runs runs afloat against an an island called Malta. They finally make it through this storm that’s supposed to take their life. And as he’s there, they’re trying to drive themselves off and warm themselves off, and they build a fire. And as they’re building a fire, he picks up pieces of wood to start the fire. And then out comes a, a snake that bites him and everyone’s expecting him to die. And he doesn’t die. He doesn’t die. In fact, the hand that is bitten soon will be the hand that he lays on people that will experience supernatural miraculous healing. I mean, this man’s story is absolutely insane, and he has such a conviction about what he’s called to do, that it’s nothing can stop him.
BO (28:09):
I’m not saying that he walks, you know, skipping along and desires to eat bomb bonds on a beach. No, the man endures so much, and yet it did not stop him from doing what he was called to do. So the reason why so much of this book is framed upon the life, if, if there’s a through line in this book, it’s the life of Paul the Apostle where we are all gonna have this arresting moment. No, there’s not gonna be a, a light that shines down from heaven and a voice that’s like, why are you persecuting me? But there’s kind kinda a moment in our life and maybe even multiple times in our life where we’re stopped and we’re arrested and asked, what are we doing? And it’s those moments that I kinda wanted us to pause and take a take a a, a a, a pulse check, if you will.
BO (28:48):
What am I doing? What am I doing? Because there’s going to be resistance that comes along with the way when we are pursuing the call that’s upon our lives, whether that is sitting in a medical practice or whether that’s going to law school, or whether that is being a stay-at-home mom who is an entrepreneur running a business out of her kitchen. I, there’s going to be resistance. And the reason why I’m absolutely beaded with this man named Paul, is that nothing stopped him and thwarted him from not just pursuing the call upon his life, but encouraging others to do the same. So I look at Paul’s, which is the end of his life, he says, I poured myself out like a drink offering. Now this is very poetic. But he was also speaking to the philosophy during that time that during that time in ancient Greco-Roman culture, they would pour out their wine to the gods as a sacrifice. And he is saying, I am pouring myself out for the benefit and the sacrifice. Sacrifice unto the Lord, be benefit of you. And I wanna get to the end of my life and say, I have fought the good fight. I have poured myself out like a drink offering, not only pursuing the God call that he’s put on my life, but inspiring others to do the same no matter what comes my way.
RV (29:53):
Amen. I love it. Bianca, where should people go if they wanna learn about this book or connect with you, like see all the things that you are up to?
BO (30:03):
Absolutely. I’m so excited about the project and it launches August 28th. People can pre-order and get a bunch of amazing gifts and incentives and resources, not just stuff that’s gonna sit on a desk, but resources that will enable people to build resilience and grit and perseverance. So they can go to bianca ov.com/gdq for grit, don’t Quit, and also at Bianca ov on all social media platforms,
RV (30:27):
Grit, don’t quit, bianca ov.com/gdq. We’ll put a link to that in the bio as well. And I would encourage you to follow her online. I mean, I follow her on Instagram and I just, I love it. It’s just encouraging, encouraging words. So thank you for your encouragement, friend. Thank you for your example. Thank you. Thank you for boldly pursuing your calling and, and what you’re doing, and we just we’re praying for you and, and we are pulling for you. And we, we wish you the best. Thank
BO (30:55):
You. Appreciate you.
Ep 412: Leveraging Technology to Scale Your Business with Josh Hotsenpiller
AJV (00:02):
Hey everybody, and welcome to another episode on the Influential Personal Brand. It’s AJ Vaden here and super excited to have my friend Josh on the show today. And I will give him a formal formal bio, a formal overview in just a second. But this interview is super special to both me and Roy and all of B B G because this is kind of the introduction of one of our strategic partners to our community and very high level. I’ll give you this little bit of background and then I promise I’ll introduce Josh
AJV (01:11):
And so I spent the better part of eight months pretty much trying out every single free demo that was available out there. Went very far down the line with some platforms that are great if you’re looking for that type of thing with like passion.io was one we went mighty Networks Pro is another. We went far down the lines, but we did a lot. And it kind of got down to the wire when I was about to sign on the dotted line with Passion io. And they revealed to me on this final call that they couldn’t do this one thing in our community that was really, really, really, really important to us. And about that time, very serendipitously very divinely one of our teammates, Jeremy said, Hey, you should check out this company called Juno. And I was like, what’s Juno?
AJV (02:00):
Long story short, now almost eight months later, we are about to go live with our own brand builders group app, the B b G app that has been totally created with Josh’s company, Juno, and their awesome team. And so Juan, I’m just really excited to have this conversation because I also know what it’s like to intimately work with your team and know your product very well, and be someone who is paying for your services
AJV (03:13):
AJV (03:57):
Lots in the a virtual event space, which I think he should also share some of his background that
JH (04:56):
Goodness gracious. Thank you so much for having me. I’m excited to share time and ideas and talk about the power of community and people.
AJV (05:04):
Yes. And I know you’re probably like, that’s the longest intro ever. You could have cut off four minutes, however, think this is gonna be a great conversation. So I’m gonna start in reverse order Okay. Of all of these questions. But before we get into that, can you just give people a little bit of insight of all of this awesome stuff that you’ve been doing for personal brands and companies behind the scenes. It’s like that bio does not do you justice whatsoever in terms of all the things that you’ve actually done. So help our audience get to know you.
JH (05:35):
Yeah. You know, I my bio is kind of over the river and through the woods. You know, you, I I quick bio grew up, the son of a preacher man was in that world, didn’t really know what else to do. I went and got my divinity degree in New York, right outside of New York City. Started a church at 23, grew up to about a thousand people. Started to feel like, gosh, like there’s what is, what would I do if I wasn’t doing this? Mm-Hmm.
JH (06:25):
And for me, it was a similar thing. I, what would I do if I wasn’t a pastor? And, and maybe you can relate to this as a listener, you grew up with a family that was kind of doing a family business, if you will. Mm-Hmm. You know, maybe it was my dad was in lawn care, or an engineer, or what restaurant business, whatever it was. And then maybe you go, wait a minute, maybe that’s not my story. Mm-Hmm. And so me and a me and a buddy, when we were 27, 28 years old decided we wanted to mobilize people to change the world. I know that sounds kind of whatever but we didn’t even know there was a space out there called the corporate social responsibility space. And so right during the 2007, eight 2007 and eight housing mortgage crisis, we launched a do good platform called Profits for Purpose that helped mobilize employees to give back time and money.
JH (07:11):
And yeah, we grew it up. We had over a million global employees accessing the platform. Those, a lot of those brands you mentioned, GoPro, Estee Lauder, staples, N F L, all sorts of groups. I always just believe in the power of community. And so I begin to build bra products for brands all around mobilizing people to do something. Hmm. So whether it was gl hp, we built the global sales enablement tool that to this day they still license and use it from one of my companies, the un they have boots on the ground all over this world helping fight genocide, hunger, poverty, and they weren’t able to mobilize those people. So we built a platform to mobilize ’em. And ultimately, my vision has always been how do you mobilize people to do amazing things and whatever that might be. And that’s the power of community.
JH (07:59):
I mean, that really is what it is. And so to me, we always had that big vision of how do we mobilize people? Tech was just part of it, right? It was just a thing. We always say, we’re not a tech company, we’re a values company. Tech is just a, is a, is a tool that you use to enable a vision. I love that. Yeah. And I think when you think about it bigger than that, you kind of missed the point and you mission drift and you kind of forget why you’re doing what you’re doing. And so for me, it’s everybody listening has a vision, has a community, has a vertical they care about. And the question is, what are the tools that we need to create radical change? And so tech has been that tool for me over the last 12, 15 years.
JH (08:41):
It’s, I’ve traveled the world, literally worked with amazing global brands, worked with a lot of really neat individual people, some amazing people. Like maybe some of your listeners know Lisa Turkers. We built her app. She’s one of the most phenomenal leaders I’ve never been around. We built Catalyst was a big group we built for a ton of their people. So we were in a lot of those faith-based spaces fortune 100 spaces. We’ve done it all from soup to nuts. And we’ve learned a lot from folks that have said, Hey, I’ve got an audience of 2000. You know, when we launched Lisa’s a app, I’ll never forget it. We trended number one in the app store for three days, which is an incredible thing to do for downloads. And you think about, you hear these things, oh my gosh, we trended in the app store. We did put 2 million people, active users on that app. That’s
AJV (09:29):
Amazing.
JH (09:30):
So, which remind me to come back to that because I think that there’s a, there’s a, there’s a strategic message I want to share about how and why to use technology. And I’m gonna use, I’ll use that as a use case cause I think it’ll help everybody listening. But yeah, we, we found that technology was a great tool. It was a great utility, which we’ll talk about in a minute to execute a bigger purpose. So that’s kind of what’s brought me here. I’ve done TEDxs, I’m a US state department, global ambassador for entrepreneurship. Oh man, it’s just been a wild ride all from just being the son of a preacher man. So it’s been a fun time. Yeah. Know
AJV (10:02):
What, you should really set smaller goals, you know, it’s like
JH (10:56):
Right. Right.
AJV (10:56):
They’re tools. Right. And it’s like they can be used for good or bad. It just all has to do with the intention. So why don’t we just kind of start there. It’s like you said this, it’s come back to like how and why to use technology. And I think that’s a good general place to start.
JH (11:13):
Cool. You know what’s funny about my mom and, and, and dad, they’re getting into that fourth quarter stage of their life. And I, I have a, I have a ritual. My folks live in Anaheim Hills, orange County. And so I have a ritual that every night I’m there, I drink whiskey with dad. And every morning I take walk with mom mm-hmm.
JH (11:58):
It’s not going away. And so now the question is, and so I raised 13 million from Insights Partners. It’s the largest software only BC in the world. They have 200 billion under management. And I, through total random Niff God we raised from their co-founder, a guy named Jerry Murdoch, who Richard Branson officiated his wedding. If that puts any context into like, you know, I’m raising money from this guy that like literally chases where the snow is
JH (12:52):
Well, I use my app, my, my Maps app. In fact, now it’s to the point when when I get into my car, it tells me it, it goes, you’re either going to the Crosby Club, which is where I golf, you’re going to Church of rb. That’s where our family goes to church. You’re going to star it knows based on time where you’re, where it’s Spotify is like, Hey, it’s Friday. It’s your country mix. It’s been a long week. Like, here’s some new songs that we think you’re gonna, like, what’s happening. Technology is becau it’s a utility. It’s a tool to make something happen and make your life easier. And so when you think about technology, you think about it from a utility standpoint. How is this a utility to help my community do something they already wanna do better, faster, more efficiently? I want to drive to this location.
JH (13:44):
This map’s gonna say, this is how you should get there in the fastest way. I want to listen to music. This app’s gonna tell me the music I don’t even know existed. I’m gonna love that in the fastest way. That’s what tech is. It’s a utility. And so you think about your community and your audience. So Lisa Turkish has told you I was going to use her as an example. She had, she’s brilliant. She had this idea, she’s like, I wanna do the first five. I wanna own the first five minutes of all of my audience’s day. Mm-Hmm.
JH (14:28):
But it was, it’s the most utility, one of the most utility apps we’ve done. And it’s, it’s still to this day, I think averages a couple million people on it actively, which is phenomenal to think about. But you gotta look at your audience and go, what is it that you are trying to accomplish? And what is the, the hammer and the nails and the screwdriver and the wrench that you need to do that? Mm-Hmm.
AJV (15:06):
So good.
JH (15:07):
That’s the question you solve that maybe you need an app, maybe you need an airplane, maybe I don’t know what you need. But the problem is we always think technology is gonna solve the problem. Oh, the problem. We haven’t even defined
AJV (15:21):
JH (15:44):
And it’s just, and and all of a sudden we’re like, my app sucks. The app, the company sucks. And you’re like, do I suck? I mean, who knows? Every, maybe everybody does. Maybe nobody does. Maybe we just didn’t identify a problem. Yeah. I was, I’ll never forget, I was sitting in the CEO’s office of a, I don’t know, me, half a billion dollar company. It wasn’t huge, but you know, big enough. And I was sitting in his office and he goes, Hey, I’m, I’m looking at signing this contract for this app, but I’m staring at this proposal going, I would never use this. And I said, my God, I’d hope not. I’d hope you’re too busy to use this, this you are not our target audience.
AJV (16:20):
Yeah.
JH (16:22):
You know? And he goes, oh my gosh, I never even thought about that. The question is not would you use this? The question is, would your audience use this again, icp, you know, our ideal customer profile, who is this person? Would they use it? And so when we look at your community, we go, what does your community need? Some of it might need leadership coaching, some of it might need emotion. I was just got off this podcast, AJ in this group called Happy. It’s phenomenal. They all they are is a listening for hire company. They’re not trained psychologists. You literally, at scale, they’re creating listeners. I love
AJV (17:00):
This
JH (17:01):
Which I can, I can open this, I can open this up to our AI conversation in a minute. But I was just on this podcast, these guys out of Manhattan, and they asked me to come on as an exec. How do you listen as an executive? And they go, we we’re literally scaling listening. Hmm. And you, their audience just needs somebody to listen. So it determines the type of app you build, the utility that you use. Is it just audio streaming? Is it video? My audience needs to be heard. Yeah. Well, my audience needs to be leadership coached. My audience needs to understand you know new law term, whatever it is. You gotta start with that mm-hmm.
AJV (17:48):
Hmm. That’s so good. And you know, it’s we had at this conversation, a good friend of mine has a custom app creation company called App name’s Amanda Mariachi. She lives in Denver. And you know, I had her on the podcast, I don’t know, a while back. And one of the questions that, you know, she had said is, the problem with building custom apps is that at the end of the day, it’s always gonna be more expensive than what you wanted it to be. It’s never gonna have a hundred percent of the functionality that you want. Sure. And somehow it’s always my fault, right. As the developer, as the builder, and Yep. Said, the truth is, is an app only works if you know exactly what you want it to do. Mm-Hmm.
AJV (18:38):
It’s over time. And at the end of the day, we’re like, we gotta call it, and then we finish an incomplete project. And she goes, yep. That’s often what an app building experience looks like. And it’s why we say no. It’s like, if you don’t know exactly who your audience is, what your business model is, if you can’t tell us that in the beginning, then we won’t work with you. And it’s exactly what you just said. It’s, it’s not do I need an app? It’s, could an app solve a problem that my audience has, because I know what the problem is and I know who my audience is.
JH (19:07):
And that’s how you grow an audience. I mean, it really is. It’s how, you know, it’s like anything. I mean, let’s go back to this listening group. You know, they, one of the things they brought me on, you know, they’re like, Josh, how many times do your exec, you know, your, your people just, I just wanna be heard. I just, I just wanna be heard. And, and I’ll tell a great story when I was I remember as the rise of Millennialism comes into the marketplace, and as a, as an ex, you know, GenX guy I’m wired a little bit different than millennials, but I’ll never forget this one guy came into my office and he goes we’re talking, and, and he goes, oh, I gotta tell you about this new company. I started, one of my employees in the middle of the day,
AJV (19:52):
Yeah. Tell me, tell me
JH (19:54):
You, you started a company. And he goes, yeah. So he kind of tells him about it. And I go, when, when do you work on it? And he goes, no. All throughout the day, I’m like, so wait a minute, when I’m employing you
JH (20:45):
Like, we feel responsible, like, yeah, you are here because I’m a thought leader in a space and, and I am the one you need to listen to. And so I’m gonna make a bunch of crap up and hope it’s right and every, you know, whatever else, right? And like, wait a minute, the art of listening is going to educate you on how to lead. Remember, you’re being paid to lead not to talk. And so a huge part of what you can do in leading is listening so that you know how to lead mm-hmm.
AJV (21:33):
That. But I think that’s, you know, we can apply that same conversation, not just to technology or an app, but, and anything, right. It doesn’t, it’s like even starting out, it’s like, I was just, as you were thinking as you were talking, I was thinking about, you know, the journey that we take customers on and brand builders group, and it’s like what we call finding your brand d n a are these six components. It’s the foundation of your personal brand. And one of those six components is what’s your business model? And are other words, what’s your primary business model? How do you make money right now? And then what do you want it to be in the long term? And it’s so interesting that for most people, most of that decision happens in a very small group setting that involves none of their clients. Mm. Mm-Hmm.
JH (22:42):
I don’t know where that came from. I’m supposed to know when you’re supposed to listen. That’s what you’re supposed to do. That’s what you, that’s what you’re supposed to do. You’re not supposed to know. Mm-Hmm.
JH (23:33):
We could do online learning, credentialing, where we could do community. Could you create that? And I remember I went back to my, my guys, I was like, guys, the customers asking us to create an all OnOne solution, we should do it. Now we’re in conversations with a big partnership with the company, and I was talking to their cfo F and they’re, I don’t know, they’re probably a half a billion dollar company. They’re worth multiple billions of dollars. And, and I said to ’em, I said, you know, it’s interesting when we got into this, I knew virtual only was gonna commoditize and evaporate. And so we needed a, we needed a more holistic solution. And he sheepishly laughed and said, we bought a company that we watched evaporate from 21 million in revenue to zero. Think about that. 21 million in, in, in, in, in revenue to zero.
JH (24:19):
Wow. Was I some savant that knew that I know that. Or did I listen to that? Mm-Hmm.
AJV (25:02):
I love that. I think that’s such a good reminder. Like I said, this is not just for technology or apps. This is just building your business, growing your business, leading your team. Listening, listening matters. Surprise. Right.
JH (25:14):
I know. Shocking.
AJV (25:16):
Surprise. Now on that, I loved what you said earlier, and I wrote this down, is, you know, it’s like technology really at its best use is helping people do things more efficiently. Do them where it’s, you know, easier, faster, smarter. Mm-Hmm.
AJV (25:59):
We, we, it’s like, and I love, and I don’t remember who told us this, but this was some interview that we had with someone who is smarter than us who said technology is only scary when you don’t know how it applies to you. Mm-Hmm.
JH (26:43):
It’s, so let’s go back to what we said. It’s not going away. So you can get scared and you can throw your hands up. You can talk about living in an al you know, an alternate community that doesn’t do parallel communities. I hear people talk about this all the time and I’m like, you know, all, all the conservatives will live over here and everybody else will live over here. We’ll just live in parallel societies. You know, it’s not gonna happen. Mm-Hmm.
JH (27:27):
You could walk down an alley in the middle of the day, you don’t thinking of it because you can’t see where it’s going. And that’s where we’re right now with ai. We don’t know where it’s going. And instead of seeing the good of it, the brain is wired to protect itself. And so we are seeing all the bad, right? Mm-Hmm.
JH (28:11):
Gimme the other thing, and I’ve been saying this to my wife for years ago, Kim, our boys, I have two boys, crews and Crosby, they’re 1113. I said, they are gonna have EQs through the roof because that is that, or they’re gonna be plumbers because those are gonna be the two jobs the future is gonna have. It’s gonna be working class trade jobs because you can’t machine learn that or it’s gonna be soft skills. And my mind bent this morning, I didn’t even, I got asked to be on this executive that listened thing from a big c e outta of Manhattan. And so I was like, yeah, sure, I’ll do that Ben, no problem. I get on and all of a sudden this guy gets on, he’s a c e of happy, which is this listening thing. And I’m like, dude, I’ve been saying for years future jobs are gonna get professional huggers listeners.
JH (28:58):
Like, because you automate these tasks. Yeah. What’s left? It’s hu it’s human need. Mm-Hmm.
AJV (30:02):
Other things in life? Yeah.
JH (30:03):
It doesn’t go away. I mean, do you remember, I don’t remember. It wasn’t there, but when the TV came out, I remember my parents saying, and I don’t, I mean I was raised like very religious rights. I don’t know how many did folks listen in, have a religious background or not. But this was how, you know, Satan was finally giving able speak to the whole world and introduce the mark of the beast or whatever. But tv here’s how it was radio first, then tv, and then the internet. And you go, okay, we can doom and gloom till we’re dead in the face mm-hmm.
AJV (30:44):
Totally.
JH (30:45):
Or we can flip the light on and say it’s, it’s a hallway, it’s an hour. I mean
AJV (30:49):
Yeah. I liken that too. It’s like, it does not matter what it is in life. It can be used for good or bad relationship. It’ll be, are healthy and unhealthy. Food is good and not good. It’s real and artificial. It’s like we can make anything good, bad, and honestly we can make anything bad. Good. That’s right. Bad is where I just, I had this podcast interview earlier today with a gentleman named Damon West and I loved what he said. He goes, the future is defined in only one of two ways, fear or faith. Mm-Hmm.
AJV (31:47):
It was we needed to consolidate Yeah. All of the different platforms into one. And that was something that our community has been saying for years and it’s something our team has been saying for years is when do we have to stop logging into one more place? Yes. Yes. And it’s cause like we were scrappy when we were building this. We don’t have investors, we’ve been self-funded and it’s like, well it’s not the best but it works for now and we’ll upgrade when it’s time to upgrade. And so it was consolidation and then organization. Mm. It was consolidation and organization of, you know, we just believe like regardless if we’re right or wrong, this is our belief is that people don’t pay for information anymore. Hmm. No, it’s for free. They don’t but they do pay for organization.
JH (32:33):
Mm.
AJV (32:33):
And they pay for application. Yeah. But it’s like, we don’t pay for information. You can get that for free, but often you don’t get it in the right order. And so you’re trying to piecemeal it together and you can do the right things in the wrong order and it will blow up in your Sure.
JH (32:47):
No doubt.
AJV (32:48):
And so that was our whole thing is like we need to consolidate and organize and then our team is the one who helps to apply and it would like, and that was like, that is why we built this app. And you know, one of the reasons we chose Juno is because of some of the AI components. Yeah. That did not exist in the other platforms. And yeah, one of the things that our community wants is they want a little bit of this done for them. It’s like, I don’t want to have to tell your team who I want to be introduced to. I wanna log in and I want someone to tell me
JH (33:21):
Like exactly
AJV (33:22):
Based on your profile, here are the five other members that you should connect with in this community. That’s so
JH (33:28):
Cool. Yeah. And let me share with, with our listeners, like how I kind of architect that engineered it because it’s gonna go back to the utility. So I created this thing called human interest modeling and, and what it was when it said, when you onboard onto our platform, we want you to declare what you’re interested in. Mm-Hmm.
JH (34:19):
Next thing you know, we’re on a rabbit trail of a yacht and the next thing you know, it’s more yachts and it’s golf. And next thing you know, if you look at that now that’s a complete profile of what you’ve discovered that you’re interested in. Not declared mm-hmm.
JH (35:05):
So it’s like, oh, I think I could really help with public speaking with research papers. I’m just making stuff up. And then somebody else comes on and goes, gosh, I’m the worst at research. I need to try to, I need to try to learn that. And all of a sudden the system’s like, Hey gosh, and AJ you guys should connect cuz AJ’s awesome at public speaking and you wanna get good at it and you’re really good at research and Jill over here really wants to get good at it. And all of a sudden, what is that? That’s utility that’s valued. To your point, that’s organization, that’s ai. Mm-Hmm.
AJV (35:59):
Yeah. It is. Back to, it’s like, and under, in order to use it, you have to understand it. You don’t have to know all of it. But it’s, I know that there’s a million ways that I could be using AI right now. I’m using it in five different ways, but it’s changing my life. It is giving time, back, minutes back that I can reinvest in other things that are important. Saving us money. It’s like there’s so many things that, you know, just to that point of it’s, you know, you only fear what you don’t understand. Even if it’s at the micro level of like, okay, I understand how I can use it for this one thing. Somebody is Yeah. And it, it that’s very much, you know, this conversation around technology in general and the app. And before I forget, cause I know we’re almost outta time if you guys are listening and you’re like, okay, I like this technology conversation and I’m curious about this app and that is something that I, you know, I, I do wanna explore, I wanna tell you guys where to go to learn about Juno.
AJV (36:51):
So you can go to juno live.com, that’s their website. So juno live.com. When you’re talking to their team, tell ’em that you heard about it through this podcast. We’re trying to do a really good job of tracking how we connect people. Don’t be surprised if there’s an AI component to this podcast in the near future that will do that for you automatically. That this is this one way to get connected to Juno. But Josh, if they wanna connect with you and they just want to follow you and learn more about you and learn from you, where’s the best place for them to go?
JH (37:23):
Yeah. I mean obviously jump on Instagram or LinkedIn. I mean those are awesome places to hang out. I do a a weekly email called Monday Motivation through I think josh hoen piller.com. You can sign up for it. I think we still have landing page up. I have a few thousand people that get that weekly. And it’s just honestly just my musings on leadership and life and, and things I’m learning on, on how to be a better listener, how to be a better leader how to build more utility in everything that we do. So yeah, come hang out, let’s get to know each other.
AJV (37:55):
Yes, and I’ll put all of that in the show notes too. And there’s so much to Josh that we did not cover today. This was so much about technology, but he has this awesome mastermind. You’re doing coaching, you’re doing so many, you’re speaking like you do so much more than what we talked about today. So we’ll have to have you come on another time to talk about, you know, part two of all things Josh, and you know, I just so appreciate you coming on and talking about this and for you guys listening one I just encourage you to, to learn more if, like, if you are trying to explore how do I use technology or an app to deepen the, you know, relationships in my community and isn’t app the right thing that I could just personally say, we’re paying for Juno, we’re using Juno. Highly recommend it. Their team has been awesome to work with. So you just get major accolades from our team, you, but then more than that it’s just to explore how technology can help you be better at what you do. Yeah. And I think that’s a really important thing. So Josh, thank you. Thank you for your time today. Thanks for your wisdom. Loved having you on. Oh,
JH (38:56):
Thank you. Pleasure was mine. And love everything you guys are doing and can’t wait to get to know you even more.
AJV (39:01):
Likewise. And then everyone else who’s listening, stay tuned for the recap episode that will be popping up later this week. We’ll see you next night.
JH (39:10):
Talk to you soon.
Ep 410: Hugs Help: How to Support People Who Are Grieving with Randy Stocker
RV (00:02):
Hey, I am gonna introduce you to a new friend of mine. His name is Randy Stalker, and I am having Randy on the show because of a few reasons. So first of all, I met Randy at the National Speakers Association, which has been a big part of my life, all the way from back from the time when I was like 20 years old. We met at a recent meeting and I always, always love meeting fellow NS AERs. But specifically it’s because of Randy’s topic. Now his topic is not one that is so hyper specific to personal branding and, you know, the things that we often talk about. But, you know, occasionally on this show, I will share personal development content. I’ve talked about how and why I stopped drinking, and I’ve shared some spiritual episodes and things. I’ve also had a lot of my, my friends, ed, mylett, and Jamie Kern Lima, etc, talk just more about like entrepreneurial stories.
RV (00:55):
But Randy is someone who has an expertise on helping people to deal with grief and loss. And he is the survivor on of a a pretty massive tragedy. And we’re gonna hear the story of that. He lost some family members that he’s gonna, I’m gonna let him tell the story, but what he’s done is he has turned it into a personal brand and he’s turned it into a career and he’s turned it into a message and a mission to help people figure out how to overcome loss brief you know, survival and, and really just he’s helped start a number of bereavement groups and you know, he’s just a, a good listener and, and a support. And so that’s something that I always struggle with which we’ll talk about. But anyways, Randy, welcome to the show.
RS (01:52):
Thank you, Rory. I appreciate the opportunity. So,
RV (01:55):
So tell me the story your story. I’d love, I’d, I’d love to, I’d love to start there. I know it’s, it’s probably something you’ve shared many times and I’m sure it’s painful, but I I think it’s a pretty, a pretty key part of, of the jumping off point of all this.
RS (02:09):
Absolutely. So on July 22nd, 2003, my two daughters, Janelle, who’s age 19 and Amy age nine, went to visit their grandpa and Grandma Stalker in Gibson City, Illinois. They spent the time back to school shopping with grandma, called my wife Shar, and said how much fun they were having all the money grandma spent on them. And then they were driving back home when a guy driving a fully loaded semi-truck speeding and reading a book broadsided the car where Janelle and Amy were sitting killing all three immediately.
RV (02:50):
So you lost your two daughters and your, was it your mom and my
RS (02:54):
And my mother? Yes.
RV (02:56):
Wow. All in all in one moment. Just like that.
RS (02:59):
Yeah. Janelle had just finished her freshman year of college at Dur Dury University in Springfield, Missouri. She asked me if she could spend time with grandpa and grandma before she went back for her sophomore year, which I thought was wonderful. Her 19 year old girl to ask that. Unfortunately, Rory, I made our nine year old daughter Amy go with her. Huh? I thought it would be good quality time for the two. I knew grandpa and grandma would love seeing them both, and so I made Amy go, which I regret to this day. But I always asked myself the question, was it the right thing to do? And the answer always yes.
RV (03:37):
What makes you say that? Like, how do you, how do you, how have you come around to, to that viewpoint?
RS (03:49):
Well, it’s, it’s always good for kids to spend time with their grandparents. Number one, you don’t anticipate your daughters are gonna get killed by a semi-truck, or they’re making a, about a three hour trip to see grandpa and grandma. The girls needed to spend more time together cuz Janelle’s going back to college. So I just said, Amy, you need to go and it’ll be good for you,
RV (04:13):
Uhhuh,
RS (04:26):
There’s guilt for 19 years for doing that, but I always ask the same question, was it the right thing to do? And the answer’s always, yes, it was the right thing to do. Mm-Hmm.
RV (04:34):
RS (04:35):
So just because we do the right thing doesn’t mean we have the right results. And this was a terrible instance of that. So,
RV (04:44):
Yeah. So I thank you for sharing that. You know, I got two kids, I got two boys now, and it’s a different, you know, it’s a different way of seeing the world as a parent and I so I struggle with what to say, right? And, and I struggle with what to do. We had less than three miles from our house here where we live in Nashville just recently was a school shooting at the Covenant School. And we knew 11 children at that school two of which are our next door neighbors. One of ’em, which was in Bible study. Thankfully none of the kids we knew were kids that were injured. I mean, minor injuries, but no, no, no, no gunshot wounds. And, and nobody, no one that we knew died that day. But that was a massive, massive tragedy right down the street.
RV (05:47):
You know, I was in, I was in high school in Colorado the year that Columbine shooting happened. And you know, there there’s, there’s some of these just extraordinary tragedies, nine 11 tsunamis. And, and then there are the, the kind of more personal and private ones of, you know, I, I had a friend lose her husband unexpectedly a few weeks ago, and like a pretty good friend you know, people who lose a child and you just go like, I don’t know what to do. I don’t know what to say. I, I don’t want to say nothing, but I don’t, I really don’t wanna say the wrong thing. And so sometimes I say nothing like, can you help? Like what? Like what, what, what do we, what, what do we, what’s,
RS (06:36):
Yeah, what’s the you’re, you’re like most people and just like I was before I lost my daughter’s Roy. It’s not untypical. So lot of people start out by saying the wrong thing because we think, cuz we’ve heard it before, things like, I know exactly how you feel. You don’t wanna say that cuz you never know exactly how I feel or how that person’s feeling. You never say, call me if you need anything because I don’t, if I didn’t call you to mow my yard or shovel my snow beforehand, I’m not gonna call you now. So what you do say is, I miss him or her, him or her too. I cannot understand your pain. Just know that I am here for you. Or if you’ve experienced loss yourself having experienced loss, my self, my heart truly, truly goes out for you and your family. Always and your family in there. Okay. The simple, simple thing to say is, I am so, so sorry for your loss
RV (07:45):
And you don’t, I
RS (07:45):
Never tried to assume that you know what they’re going through because you don’t.
RV (07:51):
And do you not get, I mean the, you know, I’ve lost my grandparents never, like someone in my immediate family I mean, I’m a biological father died, but I, I didn’t really know him af I only knew him until I was like six months old. And so, like, I never really knew him. And like I have to think that you, you know, you have funerals and you’ve got insurance companies and you’ve got, you know, just so many things are going off it. And it’s, it is helpful to hear those things. I’m so, so sorry. Even though you hear it over and over from everybody else and it, it’s still just, that’s the, that’s still helpful to hear.
RS (08:37):
Yeah. Even better than that, don’t give the per person permission to grieve when you’re sitting down with somebody just to, just to talk to them doing a one-to-one. You only need to give them permission to grieve or to get mad to get with you. Huh? It helps ’em a lot cuz they’re trying to hold it in cuz they don’t wanna burst out and start crying in front of their good friend. Number two, shut up and let them talk.
RV (09:07):
Hmm.
RS (09:08):
Sometimes we try to solve problems, we try to find solutions. Guys, you can fix a broken arm or a cut finger. You can’t fix grief. You can’t cure grief When you lose somebody that you loved for a long time. It, it’s always gonna be right here. So the only thing that can cure that is that person comes back from the dead and that’s not gonna happen. So a lot of times we try to fix something that’s unfixable.
RV (09:41):
I mean I think that’s a good reminder of like, and I don’t know if that’s more of like a male brain issue or just everybody, but like, there’s a part of me that just wants to do something. It’s almost like I feel like if I were, if I were a good friend and if I cared, I would do something and I don’t know what to do. And so I try to like do something and say stupid stuff. And you’re, what I hear you saying is like listening is doing something and listening, giving them permission to listen or, or listening and giving them permission to experience whatever they need to experience is doing something.
RS (10:22):
Yeah. A lot of people walk away from this situation cuz they’re so uncomfortable with themselves.
RV (10:28):
Yeah.
RS (10:29):
Okay. My advice is to just be there. If it’s a good friend or a family member, you don’t have to say anything. Just sit beside ’em and hold their hand or give ’em a hug. Just being there means so much. Some of the cliches we heard and still hear, I’m heals all wounds. What the heck does that mean? Hear it all the time. They are in a better place. So many people said that to me and I said, you know, I’m sure heaven’s a lot better place than this stupid earth we live on, but my daughters are doing pretty good with us in Quincy, Illinois. But we also heard God never gives you more than you can than you can handle. And God really tested me by taking my mom and my two daughters at once. It’s a true saying, but did I wanna hear it? Absolutely not
RV (11:21):
Mm-Hmm.
RS (11:34):
Even
RV (11:34):
If it’s, even if it’s true, it’s not helpful. It’s
RS (11:37):
True and it’s hurtful.
RV (11:40):
Mm-Hmm.
RS (11:41):
RV (12:05):
Mm-Hmm.
RS (12:06):
Number one, please be patient and understanding with me.
RV (12:13):
Hmm.
RS (12:13):
Patient being a key word. Number two, please let me grieve in my own way and in my own time. Don’t tell me how to grieve. Don’t tell me when to grieve. Don’t tell me when to start grieving and stop grieving.
RV (12:29):
Hold on. And I wanna, so I wanna go back to the patient one for a second. So when you say, please be patient and understanding with me, that means like, don’t pressure me to do stuff. Be okay if I’m unresponsive for a while. Like if I disappear for if I disappear for a little bit, I’m not at the parties, I’m not whatever. I mean, I if if it’s an employee, it’s, I may be not coming back at work or colleague. I mean, is that, are those all the things when you say like, be patient with me? Yeah.
RS (12:58):
Be patient means I am not the same person I was yesterday. Okay. I mean, once my daughters were killed and my mom were killed, I, I changed from the Randy stalker that was fun-loving and happy and liked to drink a beer with the guys. I go to a bible studying or something to this angry, frustrated person that couldn’t understand why his daughters weren’t there. And every time he saw other girls their age got mad, got angry, got frustrated. So a a person who’s grieving is not the same buddy I had yesterday. So be patient with them because they will get to the point, maybe they’ll be close to that same person, but maybe not.
RV (13:48):
Yeah.
RS (13:48):
How about the things,
RV (13:50):
I can’t imagine what that would be like to see kids your same, that were the age of your kids.
RS (13:57):
Yeah. Please forgive me if I say something stupid insensitive. Okay. When you’re grieving your mind’s not the same. You say a lot of dumb things and I upset so many people, they were trying to comfort me. Oh, they were having fun with their kids and I would get mad. So I was just a totally different person. So you just gotta understand that
RV (14:20):
Is that, that’s number three you’re talking about there?
RS (14:24):
It’s number four. Yeah.
RV (14:24):
Number four. Yeah. And when you say let, let me grieve in my own way, like, you know, I just wanna spend like a minute on each one of these. Oh, you bet. And, and y’all, and I don’t, I didn’t mention this, but Randy has a book called Hugs Help. Our story of tragic loss, survival and helping others as you can tell, it’s, you know, it’s very practical. I mean emotional but very practical and like these things that we’re, we’re running through right now. And, and so grieving in my own way, I feel like that comes back to what you said a little bit earlier of the things not to say as like, oh, you should grieve like this, or I understand what it feels like, or God won’t give you more than you can handle or any, anything that sort of leads lets on in a presumptuous way that like, I know what you’re going through or I know what is best for you. It’s actually way better to just sit and go, I have nothing for you. Like, I don’t know what to do. I can’t imagine how you’re feeling. I be
RS (15:26):
Honest. Yes. I
RV (15:27):
Have no recommendation. I don’t even know what to say. I just want you to know that I care and I’m here, basically. Yeah.
RS (15:33):
Be a supporter of somebody who’s grieving. Don’t be a comforter, be a supporter.
RV (15:38):
What’s the
RS (15:38):
Difference? Wherever you can help them get around. Help ’em with their kids, mow their yard, whatever it takes. Just help take some of the additional stresses away so they can concentrate on their grief and surviving their grief and getting through their grief.
RV (15:55):
Ah, so when you say that really
RS (15:56):
On, on the fringes, help ’em on the fringes to take some of the stress away.
RV (16:00):
Yeah. So when you say be a supporter, you’re saying like, take care of the practical things. Don’t try to like do the emotional things.
RS (16:07):
Yes.
RV (16:09):
Yeah. That’s interesting. I feel that way about like having a baby like that, having, having kids rocked my world and I’m just like, I was just not prepared emotionally for what being a dad would be like and how difficult the whole thing was. Yeah. And like what helped so much was people bringing dinner, which it was like, never in my life could, I imagine for one moment that like bringing someone bringing dinner would make such a huge difference as when we had our first kid and, and our second kid of just like, there’s so much going on. Just getting dinner together is a massive feat. So that’s interesting. That’s the connection I make there. When you you’re, that’s like what you’re talking about.
RS (16:49):
Yeah. Tie that into a funeral though. In the funeral you have their visitation, you have people bringing all kinds of casseroles and food and drinks to your house once a funeral’s over the house is empty. I mean, we had hundreds of people, thousands to come to the visitation, hundreds come to the house and all of a sudden it was just haw and I and nothing left. That’s when you really need to step up as a friend. Okay. When it gets really quiet and don’t, don’t ever think you are bothering them cuz they’re thinking, why hasn’t Rory called me? Why hasn’t AJ stopped by my house? Don’t they like me anymore? That’s where I need to step up and start helping people.
RV (17:32):
Yeah. That and then I think it’s, it’s, it’s just, it’s just so ironic because it’s sort of like miscommunication. Like the definition of miscommunication where you go somebody is maybe not calling or not stopping by because they’re so afraid they’re gonna say the wrong thing or do the wrong thing. And yet you’re saying all you, all you have to do is be there and don’t do anything else or just be there and help with the basics. Like, and it’s so, it’s so simple. It’s just, you know,
RS (18:02):
We try to do more than we’re, than we should be doing.
RV (18:04):
Yeah, totally. Totally. so you said please forgive me if I’m, I’m you know, if I say something silly or insensitive what else, what, what are some of the others? These are so help, this is so helpful, Randy.
RS (18:18):
Yeah. The, the fifth one is a lot of people are scared to bring up the name of the deceased. They, they think it’s going to make us start crying or get angry. Like we’ve, for like, I’d forgotten my mom and my two daughters were killed.
RV (18:33):
Totally.
RS (18:33):
Okay. That is, that’s a fear we shouldn’t have because people who are grieving want to hear the names of their loved ones. They want to hear stories, really
RV (18:44):
Pictures.
RS (18:45):
Oh, absolutely. I run a big Facebook site and to a t people want to hear stories about their loved one because we never want them to ever be forgotten. Ever. So proactively say, bring up a story or show a picture. If you
RV (19:03):
Really not
RS (19:04):
Comfortable, if you’re not comfortable doing that, say, Hey, I remembered a great story about your dad. It made me laugh this morning. Can I share it with you? So ask for permission.
RV (19:17):
Okay. Yeah. That is, I am exactly the opposite of that. I feel, I feel like, oh my gosh, I just, I don’t want to tiptoe into anything that’s gonna make them sad. It’s really sad. I worry less about making ’em angry. I worry about going, here we are having a beautiful day and now I’m gonna bring up something. You know, like AJ’s mom died when she was 15 and sometimes I’m just like, I can’t imagine how sad to grow up and to get married and to have kids and not have your mom there. And so it’s like I sometimes am afraid to even say something about my mom because I’m so, I just feel like it’s gonna make her feel bad. You know? Like, so that’s super helpful. I would not have guessed that at all.
RS (20:01):
Roy, ask her, ask her to tell you a story about her mom when she was 12. Okay. Proactively ask her. I mean, she would love to talk about her mom, but she’s not gonna bring it up cuz you don’t bring it up. Okay. I, 19 years later, I still love hearing stories about mom and Janelle. Naomi don’t hear ’em very often. Sometimes it brings a tear to my eye. Nothing wrong with that. Same with you. For all the people you’ve lost or anybody’s lost out there who actively share a story with them.
RV (20:32):
Yeah. That’s powerful.
RS (20:35):
Okay. Number eight, never stop calling me. Sometimes we think, well we’re, we’re not gonna call today because all their other friends are calling. Well, all the friends are saying, well, we’re not gonna call today because all their friends are, are calling a graver is waiting in hope. And that phone rings for somebody just to say, Hey, I’m thinking about you today. Okay. So never stop that calling and it’s just not on the date of death. You gotta kick in mind the secondary losses. I didn’t just lose my mom and my two daughters. I had lost college graduations. I had lost walking my daughters down the aisle. Uhhuh
RV (21:27):
Yeah. I heard, and I once heard I had a good, I had a good friend who lost her dad. And I remember her telling me that the entire first year that somebody’s gone, every single holiday, every single annual event, whether it’s Valentine’s Day, Christmas, Halloween, summer vacation, their birthday, like, it’s like they experienced the grief over and over again. Like the whole year of, she used to call it, it was the, she called it the year of firsts. And she was like, when somebody dies, it’s like the, it’s not just the day. It’s like there’s this whole year of first and every time, it’s like the first Christmas with Adam, the first vacation with Adam, em, the first time at home with without em the first, the first the the, the first time we go back to the golf course that we used to go to. Like, and that really hit me of like, wow, that, that means you’re at least for a year, it’s like pretty intense. Not just, oh this happened. There’s a funeral and like we all are all moving on now.
RS (22:39):
Yeah. One thing to keep in mind too, it’s not just the actual day. Grief builds up, it builds up inside of a body. Okay. Father’s Day, I hate the most cause I don’t have two of my daughters or Father’s Day. So three or four or five days before Father’s Day, I can feel the grief starting on my gut and working its toy up. And this gotta to explode. So the best time to call people is two or three or four days before those key events say, Hey, I’m thinking about you, I’m praying for you. I’m here to help. Okay.
RV (23:15):
Is that, let’s
RS (23:15):
Say get to the actual day, it’s, the buildup is worse than the actual day.
RV (23:21):
Ah,
RS (23:22):
Today is another day in their life, but the buildup anticipating thickness is gonna be a terrible day is a lot worse than the actual day.
RV (23:30):
Wow. Yeah. That’s insightful to just go like, yeah. I mean I guess I imagine you never have another Father’s Day where you don’t, you just never have another Father’s Day where you don’t think about it. And so you’re leading up, up to that moment. Can can I ask you about like the you know, spiritually, so I I’m a hardcore Bible thumping Jesus freak. We, we are, we, we, we
RS (23:53):
Hardcore Bible thumping Jesus freak. Okay. Jesus
RV (23:56):
Freak. Yeah. So, you know, we’re, we’re Christians. We believe in heaven. In fact, in fact, I am, I haven’t shared this publicly anywhere, but for the last several months I’ve actually been working on something that I’m, I I’m, it’s a, it’s called Getting into Heaven. And it’s, it’s seven, it’s seven questions that I think every intelligent skeptic should ask about Jesus. And I’m not really doing it. The, the, the reason I’m putting it together is for my sons, for Jasper and Liam. It’s gonna be dedicated to them. And I want them to know, I want them to know why daddy believes in the logical reasons of miracles, a resurrection and Jesus. So that’s a very personal and powerful thing for me and our family. Separate if whether or not somebody is a Christian or believes in heaven or is an atheist or whatever, when somebody loses somebody, especially when you don’t know what their faith is like, it’s one thing if I go, I know you’re a Christian, we go to church, we have the same beliefs.
RV (25:10):
I, you know, I can send them a Bible verse, I can send ’em something. If there’s somebody who I don’t know if they’re a Christian or I know they’re of a different religious faith and I don’t know much about that faith or like, you know, whatever, like a, you know, it’s not, we don’t have a shared spiritual belief system. Or, or I know they actively don’t have a faith. Like how much does the, you know, does it help this, like you, you already said they’re in a better place. Like, that’s not a good thing to say. That doesn’t really, even if it’s true, it doesn’t help. Is there anything else around the spiritual conversation, you know, like, I’m praying for you as a good example too, cuz I go like, that’s gotta be another thing that everybody says. And, and first of all it’s like, are they really, you know, like, you know, so, so what are some things around that?
RS (26:04):
Okay. That that’s, that’s a fair question. Yeah. We are we’re good Catholics. Okay. We live in Quincy, Illinois. When this happened part of my presentation about everybody grieves differently. Okay. My wife and I had been married 21 years. When the girls were killed, she would be in church every single day. She felt more comfortable in church, closer to God and closer to her church friends. I tried, I would go to mass every single Sunday. I would sit about halfway through mass and I’d start crying and I’d cry because why am I worshiping this God that took my daughters up to heaven? Yeah, I know they’re in heaven. I know I’m gonna see them again, but why would God take them away from me? One day I left mass, I went out to the cemetery. I was yelling and kicking and screaming and crying.
RS (26:57):
Somebody walked up behind me, Roy and put their hands on my shoulders and he said, son, what’s, you know, what’s the matter? I explained that I was so frustrated with God for not protecting my family. My prayer every night is take care of my family, take care of my wife, my kids, and grandkids, yours, his well. And this guy explained free will to me. And he basically said that God gives us all the free will to make our own decisions good, bad, right or wrong. And God didn’t take my daughters to heaven. God gave this truck driver free will, like he gives it to you. And me and the truck driver made some stupid, stupid, stupid mistakes. So after, instead of blaming God or taking Janelle naming mom to heaven, I started thanking God Rory for the 19 years I had with Janelle. And for the nine years I had with Amy.
RS (27:55):
And that changed my life. So instead of hating God, which I hate you worse hate, but that’s how I felt for a long time. I started thanking him cuz I didn’t really have to have them, he didn’t have to give ’em to me at all. I had 19 years with one and nine with the other. As far as your question, I think you need to stick with your faith. Okay. If you’re talking to somebody that has different faith, doesn’t matter. Use what you want to say. It’s gotta come from the heart. And if it doesn’t come from the heart, it’s not near as meaningful. Mm-Hmm.
RV (28:43):
Yeah. That feels like your
RV (28:44):
Question. It’s, that feels totally, and that feels like a hopeful thing for, that feels like a hopeful thing, just no matter what the scenario is. Like I’ll get to see him again someday. Like that’s a Absolutely. That’s, that’s a very hopeful yeah, that’s a, that’s, that’s a really hopeful thing. So I want to, so that’s super helpful. So can we talk about the truck driver for a minute? Because on the one hand you have to, I mean, like, there’s so much, I mean, your story just makes me cry, Randy, because it’s just, it’s just, it’s just so, it makes me so sad. And I know there’s people listening that are going through it right now, right? Like they’re going through it right now and
RS (29:27):
Presentations bring out a lot of, lot of tears. Roy,
RV (29:30):
I, I’ve, I can’t imagine tears
RS (29:32):
Are okay. It means you care, it means you love somebody.
RV (29:35):
I c I can’t hardly talk, talk to you right now. They’re, but you know, it’s like, first of all, you have to reconcile the loss of somebody, then you have to reconcile your life without that person. Then you have to reconcile with God. And then in your case, you have to reconcile with this other person. Maybe not reconcile with them directly or, but like, there’s a, that doesn’t just go away, right? Like there’s, there are, there’s feelings and emotions around that person.
RS (30:13):
Yeah.
RV (30:14):
Can you like, talk through that a little bit?
RS (30:16):
I, I can. He was a truck driver. His name is ran my, my same name unfortunately. After the death, the state of Illinois charged him with involuntary manslaughter. We went to court in Bloomington, Illinois. The judge asked a few questions and then the judge asked me to stand up and he said, I’m sorry Mr. Stocker, but I cannot charge this guy with anything. He didn’t mean to kill your family. This is before distracted driving was the terminology it is now. But I think you’re getting to the point, did I forgive that driver or not? And I get this question asked pretty much every presentation I do. And I say, I, I forgive the driver. I know he didn’t kill them on purpose, but I have not yet forgiven his stupidity. Okay. It was stupid, stupid thing he did to read a book while driving a truck. So I forgive the driver, but not his stupidity. What are your thoughts there?
RV (31:28):
W well, I guess I just took
RS (31:29):
Me a while to get to that. So,
RV (31:30):
Yeah, I mean my, how long did it take to, to get to that point?
RS (31:35):
After that trial, I actually actually asked to speak to the truck driver and his wife. And they put us in a small room at the courthouse and she said they were so sorry and gave me a big hug, but he didn’t even get out of his truck to see if my family was alive or not. Roy, he sat in his cabin and called somebody didn’t even check. So that, that part really hurt me, him not even looking to see if they were alive or needed help or anything. So it took a long time, but probably two or three years after they were killed, they started answering that way. I forgive the driver, but not a stupidity.
RV (32:20):
Yeah. I mean,
RV (32:22):
What the, whatever the, there’s, there’s always a scenario around how it happened. You know, why it happened. I, I’m a big, I’m a, I’m, I’m a big believer that forgiveness is really, you know, it, it sets, it sets you free as the one who was harmed more, more than it has anything to do with setting them free. But anyways, it’s just, I I I, I I can’t imagine. So buddy, I, I, I want to point people towards the book Hugs help our story of tragic loss, survival and helping others. And then, you know, tell me about the hugs part of it. You know, where does the, where does the, the title come from? Because we haven’t, we haven’t talked about it, but as soon as, as soon as I saw it, I was like, man, I really even just love the title of this because it, it feels, I guess this whole, this whole topic of just death.
RV (33:23):
You know, and I, I firmly believe in heaven. Like I am absolutely convicted in, you know, what are my beliefs? And, and I’ve re researched them at length over the course of my life, both from a spiritual and emotional perspective, but especially from a logical and rational and archeological perspective. And no matter, no matter what, it still feels so hopeless. It still feels so desperate. Like, you know if I lost my kids or my wife, like, it’s like I just, I have no control over this. And, you know, this is going to happen in some way to one of us, some someday. And I think there’s so much about what you talk about Randy, that’s just tactical and practical and you know, the, the hug especially of everything somehow is ma is, it feels magical to me as like the thing. So can you just tell us like, where, where, where’s the fir first of all, tell us where, where do you want people to go to get the book or to connect with you or like learn about, you know, having you speak and then, and then I wanna hear the story of the, the title.
RS (34:34):
Okay, good. The book’s on amazon.com, just write in Hugs, help Randy Stalker. If you want to, a lot of people like autograph copy, so they can go to my website hugs help.org, and they can order an autograph copy and I’ll send it right from here. Venmo is the only way I take payment for that, but if they have Venmo does it that way. I’ve, I presented about 35 times my first year since the book has released mm-hmm.
RV (35:18):
Indeed.
RS (35:19):
Cuz we all need to understand grief. We need to understand how to help those that are grieving. So I’m looking for the opportunity to talk to as many people as I can. As you can tell, I’m very open with my presentation. Sometimes I shed a tear while I’m speaking. They need to understand that about half the time it’s
RV (35:40):
RS (35:43):
And then as far as the Hugs help, I, I wrote the book in eight months, during October. It was released May 23rd. Actually a year ago today it was released. Okay. It didn’t have a title. So I went to see my dad in Gibson City, Illinois. Had a nice couple days with him. He is a big brood of a guy, Uhhuh
RV (36:38):
Yeah.
RS (36:38):
That’s where it came from. I’m proud of the title. It’s getting a pretty good name out there. So
RV (36:44):
It is the, you know, the other, the other thing I love about hugs, I mean, it’s so helpful to know what, what, not to say, what to say and all this, you know, but I think, you know, one of the things that really sticks with me, I, from, from what you’ve said and talk about is just being there. Like, literally just being there. You don’t have to say anything. And in order to give a hug, you have to be there.
RS (37:13):
Yep.
RV (37:14):
Like, and that’s, I, that’s why I was like, man, this really is the perfect, the perfect title. It’s memorable, it’s clear, it’s what people want. It, it, it’s what the grieving person wants. And it’s also to me what the, what the people surrounding the situation want, which is a clear answer for how can I help, what can I do? And just knowing like it’s, you know, hugs is a great way to do it. You’re not, you’re just there. You’re not saying anything. You’re not fixing anything. You’re not coaching anybody on how they should feel.
RS (37:54):
Just there.
RV (37:55):
You’re just there and you’re just holding them. Yeah. And well, I’d
RS (37:59):
Like to share five takeaways with people. Do we have time for that? Sure. Okay. Number one, always remember that everybody grieves differently. My wife and I were night and day grieving. She didn’t cry for four months after our daughters were killed.
RV (38:14):
Wow.
RS (38:15):
Four months. And I was just a, just a ball baby every single day. So when you’re trying to help people understand that husband may grieve differently than the wife and the kids and everybody else, number two, you cannot grieve wrong. Don’t ever let anybody tell you how to grieve, when to grieve or when to stop grieving. If you feel like crying cry. If you feel like screaming scream, you cannot grieve wrong. Number three, always try to accept a griever for who they are. Now, I’m never gonna be the Randy stalker before July 22nd, 2003. He’s long gone. I’m a new person. Everybody that goes through tragedy is a new person, not a better person, not a worse person, just a different person. Number four, try to really hard to understand the grieving process. We share nine steps there with you. Just a lot of times people won’t say what’s on their mind. They can tell you how to help ’em, but they won’t. So if you understand what they’re going through, it will help them. And number five, what you just said, just be there for them. You can’t fix it. Nothing you can do to just be there. That’s what a graver needs And hugs do help Roy.
RV (39:41):
Yeah. Amen. Well, Randy, thank you for the courage and the boldness of sharing your story. I I’m convinced it’s gonna help a whole bunch, a whole bunch of people, and I’m, I’m very grateful to have met you and to have had this encounter and this opportunity to get this instruction from you. It gives me a lot more confidence in, you know, approaching this situation in a way of being able, being able to be helpful to, to people going through a hard time. And so again, you know, you guys can go to hu Hugs help dot org Right? Is the website. And you can, or you can grab the book Hugs, help on Amazon and walk you through this. Randy I really wish you the best man. I, I’m, I’m praying for your message to get out there to, to help a lot of people. I know there’s a lot of people who struggle with grief and struggle with how to support a griever. And there’s, you know, there’s a lot of, there’s a lot of death and tragedy and heartbreak going on in the world. And so I think this is a really, really needed message. So we love you. We’re cheering for you. We’re grateful for you. Keep on going, my friend.
RS (40:53):
Take care, Rory. Thank you. Okay.
Ep 408: So, You Want To Write A Book. Now What with Risha Grant
AJV (00:02):
Hey everybody, this is AJ Vaden, one of your co-hosts on the influential Personal brand. And I’m so excited to get to interview my friend Risha Grant today, because she’s awesome and y’all are gonna love her. But two, I just love getting to talk to first time authors who have done the incredibly hard work to dream up the idea of a book, work with a traditional publisher, write it, get it sold, and then to get to talk to them right before it goes live is like one of the best things in the whole world. So you’re gonna get to hear a little bit about that journey. And before I formally introduce you, Teisha I just wanna remind everyone why you need to stick around for this particular episode because I know so many of the people in our audience and in the Brand Builders Group community have so many questions about what it takes to write a book.
AJV (00:57):
Should I try to get a traditional publisher? Should I self-publish? Should I do some sort of hybrid publisher? Like so many people talk about writing the book, and so few talk about selling the book. ’cause The truth is, if you actually want anyone to read it, they have to buy it. And then they have to be motivated and motivated enough to start the book. And that is what we’re gonna talk about today, is the journey from idea to writing, to publishing, to selling, and to actually having this make an impactful change in the readers of your book. And so, Isha is gonna walk us through what that journey look like, looks like for a first time author. And that is why you want to stick around. So if you have a dream of writing a book, you’re in the middle of writing the book, or you’re about to launch a book, this is an episode that you want to listen to.
AJV (01:53):
So stick around and let me formally introduce the one and the only Reha Grant. So here’s just a high level. I, I personally know Reha. So I get to just speak volumes about who she is as a human being. But she is an incredibly sought after keynote speaker. She speaks on anything from culture and leadership and personal accountability as well as diversity, equi diversity, equity and inclusion. Like I’ve got tongue tied today,
RG (03:14):
Thanks for having me. I am super excited to be here. So let’s, let’s get to it. Let’s, let’s really talk about it. ’cause You’re so, right. It is writing it is one thing. Selling it is a completely different animal.
AJV (03:28):
Yeah. So I, I wanna kind of know, because I know that there’s, there’s many journeys when it comes to writing a book. And I wanna know, like, first things first. What made you go, this has to be a book, right? So for the people who are listening, who are going, and I think I wanna write a book, maybe they should hear this before they make that formal decision. So let’s talk about that first.
RG (03:53):
Well, it’s because all of the stages that I’ve been on, right? I get a chance to talk to so many people, and I consider that, you know, a huge blessing. And they have so many questions, you know, within the speech, I’m out of there, in and out of there in an hour, 45 minutes I’m speaking. And people have all of these questions and they wanna know more. And you can only give them little tidbits within that speech. And they want, they want to continue to learn. And so I’ve thought, you know what? My journey has been insane. You know, for so many reasons. You know, I could be looked at as someone who wasn’t supposed to do all the things that I’m doing. And I thought, let me put it in the book. ’cause If I can inspire or impact anyone’s life in a way that lets them know, it doesn’t matter where you come from, it doesn’t matter what you’ve been through. If you want to be better, do better go out there and crush goals. You can do that. You can make that decision. And this is how I did it. So I decided to put it in a book. And so it’s actually my second book. The first book was self-published, this second book, traditional publisher, completely different ballgame.
AJV (05:01):
Yeah. And I should have practiced that first time author with a traditional publisher. Yes,
RG (05:20):
Yeah, I probably should too, but
AJV (05:24):
So, so let’s talk about that, like the route to working with a traditional publisher and what is, what does it take and why, why did they decide to work with you? And I would be so curious to hear your experience and your take on that. ’cause I have my own stories of what it took us to get a publisher interested. So walk us through. It’s like, if you really wanna write a book, which I love that. And, you know, I would say I’ve been more reminded over the last two years of the power that books have. Like, I think I forgot that a book has the power to change your life. ’cause I had stopped reading during Covid for some reading for some Unbe un unbeknownst reason to me. And it’s like, they do, like, books are powerful and they take so much time and passion and energy to get it out there. But then to actually, you know, work with a traditional publisher who they’re not working with just anybody. Yeah. They’re working on kind of the, the sure win. Like, Hey, I, I, I’m not, they’re not in the gambling business. They’re like, Nope, I think this is gonna sell a lot of books,
RG (06:41):
I think, so for me, it was a long process that took a lot of patience. This second book has been six years in the making. But what happened is I went and spoke at a, at a conference that I did not wanna go and speak at, because it was one of those you pay for everything to come here, but the everybody in the audience, you know, is, is going to want to do business with you. And I was a little, you know, not, not that excited about it,
RG (07:24):
You need
RG (08:08):
One thing I will say about, about this whole process is they are focused on how many people are going to buy this book, right? You can have this idea, you think it’s great, which I did. I had a, I had a different idea that I thought was great. They were like, that’s great, but if we broaden this, you know, then we’re going to be able to sell it to more people. And so I found myself thinking about, well, you know, maybe it’s not for everybody. Maybe it’s for a certain, you know, certain smaller group of people that would really benefit from it. But they kept pushing me and kept pushing me. And so we got to this bigger book. My agent has been amazing. He was able to actually get my, my book in a bidding war with three, three different publishing companies.
RG (08:55):
And so we ended up going with Hay House because they just had an amazing offer. And I say this like it was nothing, but when I tell y’all it was
RG (09:37):
There’s, there’s a description for every chapter. There’s a sample chapter. There’s who are your competitors and why is your book different? Who’s gonna buy this book? What does your platform look like? Do you have enough people in social media to support this book? What does your email list look like? How are you gonna publicize it? Because they don’t really do any of that
AJV (10:16):
And actually, I’ll pause right here just for a second because I think a lot of people forget that if you really want to go big, and I would say this, even if you are considering doing a hybrid or a self-published book, doing the book proposal is the business plan. And I love the way that you said that. It is the architectural blueprint of how am I going to position this book? How am I gonna market this book? How am I gonna sell this book? What audiences do I have access to? And regardless of what way you decide to publish, this can be as robust as necessary. But it’s really important for you to actually think about these things. Because getting the book published, quite honestly, is like, at the very beginning stages of the journey. Like, that’s a part of the process that that’s not the end goal that is
RG (11:20):
So I started in August of 20. This would’ve been August of 2019, I believe. And so the book proposal itself I actually ended up going and getting help with that because it was so expansive. I mean, I had, my agent sent me all of these proposals to look at, and I was like, oh my gosh. You know, and, and even if you’ve tried to write a book, you know that the only way to write a book is to actually write a book. You have to sit down. You have to figure out what time works for you, when you’re gonna have the least amount of distraction when you can actually get this done. Well, I was speaking like 70 times a year.
AJV (12:12):
So let’s just talk about this just for a second. Like, I think the really unknown part of this for most people is the process of writing a book proposal. So can you just like, walk us through like, how long did that part take?
RG (12:29):
Months. It, it took months. Gosh, we probably allotted six months to write that proposal. Because it’s not, it’s not just a, here’s a couple of pages on what I think this book should be. There are, you have to do a chapter description for each chapter. You have to write a sample chapter. You have to then talk about marketing and how you plan to actually market this book, who your competitors are, and why your book is different from theirs. Then you have to do an overview even after you’ve done all of the, the chapter descriptions and the sample chapter. It is a living document that is really thick. You know it, so by the time you sit down and write the book, the great thing about it is, you know, all of the stuff you wanna talk about. We varied a little bit from that.
RG (13:16):
‘Cause We, we, when we presented it, we had 11 chapters and we ended up with nine because one of the things we noticed is that we didn’t have as much information for a couple of the chapters. They were gonna be a lot shorter than the other ones. So we were able to figure out a way to to just build those out, you know, by, by placing them into other chapters. So we were able to get it done. But it is a it’s just an incredibly long process, I think from, so from the time that you write the proposal, then they have to take it and sell it and see who’s interested in it. And so we had we had one, one group that we knew, one publishing company that we knew was interested in the book, but of course we wanted to get the best deal that we could get.
RG (13:58):
So it went to bid three, three publishing companies bid on it. And then once we got the deal, then we actually had to write the thing
AJV (14:48):
Yeah. And I just think that’s like so important. Like you said something there, which was, so I had to get this proposal and then they had to go sell it, right? And that’s just an important distinction of going, like, your book proposal is a sales tool. It’s a sales and marketing tool. And, you know, think about the amount of research that it takes to do that. And then you’ve gotta go to the sales process, then you’ve gotta go to write the book, and then it goes into editing and publishing. So we are in August of 2023. When did you start this process? Isha?
RG (15:22):
2019.
AJV (15:23):
RG (15:25):
2019. Yes. It was a really, really long process. And four years is really, you know, it’s good considering mm-hmm.
AJV (15:40):
I mean, the third book will just take two. You know? Yes,
RG (15:43):
Yes. I’m gonna keep getting better. I’m gonna keep getting better. But it is a it’s been a real process. ’cause I mean, you think getting the book done is the big deal, and you’re like, yes, I’ve done this. That’s, I mean, you gotta do that, but it’s this other part of actually selling the book. And that is the, that’s where I am now. That’s where I’ve been since February. I mean, we’re talking, working seven days a week. I’m talking 10 plus hour days, more like 15 plus hour days for a lot of this time since February. I have gone back to every client I’ve worked with, if I’ve consulted for you, spoken for you met you, you’ve heard from me at this point about buying this book. And that was not something that it’s Yeah. Yeah. And that, and that is not something that I could hand off to somebody else.
RG (16:35):
You know, I tried to delegate where possible. But what I’ve realized is if I want to hit the bestseller list, if I want to actually, ’cause let me say this, there are a lot of books out there. Mm-Hmm.
AJV (17:49):
Yeah. Good luck. Let us know how it goes.
RG (17:53):
Yes. They’re happy for everything you’re gonna do, but they wanna know what are you going to do? And that was what I think helped to sell the book. I mean, they were interested in the topic, but we had such a robust marketing plan in that thing that and, and I’ll be honest, my background is marketing and pr. So it was helpful that I was able to to really look at that and really see how we can push the book. And we have, we have done everything that, that we know to do. But it’s not a it’s not a, I wrote this and, you know, here it is, and now I’m gonna go sit down and watch all the great things happen. That is not it.
AJV (18:35):
That’s a real bummer.
RG (18:37):
Yeah. That is not it so far.
AJV (18:41):
I would, I would love to hear from you for everyone who’s listening, what would you say are the sales tactics and the sales strategies that you feel like are really working to move books?
RG (18:53):
You know, I don’t think people talk about this enough, but I think it’s relationship. It is, for me anyway. I’m not saying ’cause, you know, social media, that, that’s been helpful. Pr and the pr that’s really been helpful has been the pr where I’m writing op-ed pieces or I’m getting to write longer pieces for Fast Company or business Insider and those kinds of things. But it has been the relationships for me. I am I’m big on relationship building. I’ve, my, my entire career, I’ve been big on it because I know that when things go bad in business, and it will if things go bad in writing this book, and it will, you know, you need to be able to call on people and say, Hey, this is happening, and I’m not sure which way to go. Hmm. And so with the book I focused my sales campaign on my relationships.
RG (19:52):
Now I have been, I’ve owned my own business since I got outta college pretty much like a couple years out of college. So it’s been over 25 years. But those relationships, you know, I make sure that I am doing more. Like, what can I do for you, you know, as the client. It’s not just about what you can do for me, but how we can together make sure that we are able to help each other. Yeah. And so when it came to something like selling books, that’s what I’ve done. And, you know, whether it’s, whether it’s a speech or what, you know, whether it’s a a q and a or one-on-one consulting, I’m offering services that people usually pay a lot, a lot of money for. And it’s not like they’re not paying that for the books, but they’re getting a heck of a discount
AJV (21:02):
Wow. And I so, so appreciate you being transparent in that, because that was our experience too. It’s like we, you know, it’s like we had all these grandiose marketing plans and at the end of the day, 90% of our book sales came from us selling.
RG (21:18):
Yes. Yes. That is, that is it. There is no way around it. And if somebody finds out something else, let me know.
RG (21:28):
There is no, I think that’s just like a really important part. It’s like writing and getting your book out there is like, it’s like launching your own micro business.
RG (21:37):
Yes. And it’s like
AJV (21:40):
Business plan, content strategy, sales and marketing plan. It needs staff, it needs attention. And it’s like, you’re not ready to emotionally invest and then actually financially invest. Yeah. Then you’re not ready. Right. ’cause It’s gonna require all the above
RG (21:57):
Financial investment. Yes.
AJV (22:00):
It requires
RG (22:01):
That you not Yeah. I think you know, it’s a, it is a misnomer that you, you get a publisher and you don’t have to worry about money couldn’t be further from the truth. I mean, this is an investment. It’s a financial investment that is pretty substantial. Uhhuh
AJV (23:03):
It is. And, and then also back to that kind of sales piece for just a second, and I think this is a, a testament to, although I I love you, it wasn’t top of mind for me to proactively be like, oh, Isha, let me have you on the show because my brain is busy. Yes. But it’s like you did a call to action on an Instagram post, and then it, I think somebody had tagged me and it’s, I think it was Amy LaValley. Yes. Yes.
RG (24:02):
Yeah, it is. I mean, I’m doing the same thing. I probably have 5,000 contacts in my phone. I am one by one contacting these people. Some of these people I haven’t talked to since before the pandemic. And I’m saying, yes, it is me. I know we haven’t spoken in three years, but I’m shamelessly asking for your support. Just purchased one book. And so people are sending me screenshots back that they purchased the book I ran into. And anybody I’ve done business with, my, my makeup person that I use sometimes I run into her at the mall this weekend. She said, oh, you sent me a text. She was like, I gotta get it. I’m like, go ahead and get it now.
AJV (24:39):
Let me pull up the link for you right
RG (24:41):
Now. Yeah. You’re gonna go back to work in a second and you’re not gonna think about this. So it’s not like one time I have to send this and I mean one text message at a time. It is so time consuming. But I’ve gotta go back through those people and say, Hey, you know, I just wanna make sure you remember to purchase this book. It is an all day commitment. And so from the time I get up in the morning, I, I work out, you know, and then, then the rest of my day is, is pushing these books out. So, well,
AJV (25:07):
I know the amount of work that goes into this, and so I’m just so excited for you, I’m so proud of the work that you’re doing, because this is a book people need. And it’s like, I know this is like launching a business, having a baby. Like, it’s that level of intensity. And I’ve had done both. So I can say that
RG (26:09):
Radical acceptance. I work in the, the diversity, equity, and inclusion field, and I’ve been working in the field long before it was a hot topic. And what I’ve known is that there are so many people that feel excluded, ostracized, left out, and not just to a point of of isolating themselves, but to the point of taking their lives and not feeling like they matter. And you know, we have so many, so many things in this world that say, this is normal and this is who you have to be, you know? And if you’re not this person and you don’t fit into this perfect box, then you’re not worthy. Hmm. And people would come and talk to me about, they, they have so many stories. Maybe it was their race, maybe it was their sexual orientation, maybe it was their religion. Maybe it was just that they wanted to be a dancer and their parents wanted ’em to be a lawyer.
RG (27:04):
It doesn’t matter what it is. We’re not allowed to authentically show up as who we are. And it’s, and one thing that I never understood about it is we don’t have to agree on everything. You don’t have to like my lifestyle, but you do have to treat me with common courtesy, decency, and respect. And when I walk into work, it should at least be a place that mandates behavior that allows me to do my job in the way that that wins and is helping the company win and meet their goals and, and helping me to meet my goals. And so people are, environments are in environments where they’re, we’re in a complete suit of armor every day to just kind of deflect all of the BSS coming at them every day. And I thought, you know, what if we were just accepting of each other, and I’m not talking about, ’cause I know that can go a whole bunch of ways for a whole bunch of people, things that are just horrible things.
RG (27:57):
I’m not talking about those things. I’m talking about showing people that you see the humanity in them and allowing them to be who they are without your judgment. Hmm. That is, that is all I’m talking about. I know in the wellness world, radical acceptance is about taking, taking your pain and trying to avoid the pain that’s coming at you. The radical acceptance that I teach is about helping you not cause pain to yourself or to others. And so, it’s a thing that e even within myself, there are so many things about me that would be looked at as a negative. Like most people that I’ve come in contact with. And I, and it’s not missed on me that because I’m on this stage and because I’ve, I’ve been blessed to build this business that that everybody likes me. Well, if you didn’t know me in that realm, and you just knew, you know, you just knew Isha, here’s this, you know, I I, I always start every speech with, I’m a small town divorced ex preacher’s wife who comes from a loving but largely religious family.
RG (28:57):
Some describe me as this competitive relentless ex division one basketball player. But my friends as an extremely loyal but conditional extrovert. I also happen to be a bisexual black woman, a serial entrepreneur, and a Catholic middle school basketball coach who runs a diversity consulting and communications firm in one of the reddest states of the nation. When I say that, so many things within that Yeah. Are things that people frown upon. Mm. And they wouldn’t give me, you know, give me the chance to, to be me. And so I learned that if I would radically accept myself, you know, be willing to lose everything, to gain myself, then I could extend that love and acceptance toward other people, you know? And so it’s, it’s radical acceptance of yourself, of others and, and of the world. You know, are you willing to be wrong to get the company culture right.
RG (29:46):
Are you willing to lose judgment in the moment to win humanity in the end? And so that’s what took up all these years. That’s what made me say, you know what people need to know. They matter. You know, you may be, you may be the one person in someone’s day that smiles and treats them with kindness, one person that keeps them going. And we are so caught up in our own stuff that we don’t do that. So that’s why the book is called Be Better Than Your bss, because we all are carrying around and BSS stands for our biospheres, our Belief Systems, you know, the bias synapse in our brain that deals with unconscious bias. So I want people to know that people are people, you know, you can, you can mentally disagree with someone’s life, but still embrace the person that they are.
RG (30:39):
Mm-Hmm.
AJV (31:27):
Wow. I would say that’s worth four years of your life.
RG (32:05):
That’s exactly what the biosphere is. Yeah. It’s those five socializing agents that we all grow up in from our family and friends to peers and schools and religion and media. And we, we don’t really know what we think for ourselves because from the time we’re born, our family tell us what to think. And then as we go through life, you know, we, we don’t really take the time to research it for ourselves. And so are, we will really willing to unlearn all of the things that we’ve learned from the people that we love and the institutions that we trust.
AJV (32:34):
That’s so good. On that note, if there was one profile, if there was one person who is listening to the show today that you could identify and go, you, I wrote this book for you and you need to pick it up. Yeah. Can you tell us who that would be?
RG (32:51):
That would be the person that feels as though they don’t belong anywhere. They don’t fit anywhere. They’re the person who says, because I look like this or dress like this, or don’t fit into this box, you know, I’m not worthy. Mm-Hmm. It’s also for the company that says, you know what, we’re an imperfect company working with imperfect people, but together we can create the kind of company where people can thrive. It’s it’s for companies that, that understand that they may not have handled everything the best that they could in the past, but they can actually read this and work with their employees to build a better future.
AJV (33:33):
Yeah. I love that. Who wouldn’t want to pick up the book when you frame it that way? Right. Yeah. I think that’s a really, really important message. And, and I think one of the things that is important for everyone listening is going, if you aren’t willing to give up years of your life however many, because you believe in it that much, then it’s not the right topic. Yes. You shouldn’t, it shouldn’t be what you do because it’s, you’ve got to go, it’s worth it. Yes. It’s worth all of the money and the time and the investment because it needs to be said and it needs to be heard.
RG (34:10):
And that was what is going to carry you on those days where you’re like, why am I doing this? Am I crazy? This makes no sense. I’m spending money, I’m spending time. But when you know that the impact is greater and that the impact is, is going to change somebody’s life, that’s gonna carry you through those days for where you’re questioning your own sanity
AJV (34:31):
RG (35:14):
Oh, wow. That is a great question. I wish that I had followed my gut on, on some things that that I probably didn’t need to do that I was, that I was led to do. And I have the benefit of having been in business a long time, but, you know, when you’re embarking on something new and you have a lot of new people involved you wanna do all the things that they tell you that works. I would say always trust your gut. It, it is not gonna lead you astray. And not that because the things that I have learned and encountered, they’ve all been great. But just because there’s so much work and so much time, I wish I had just stayed in line with my gut and said, okay, that may, that may be great, but I’m still gonna go this direction because I know it works for me.
AJV (36:03):
I love that. Second question. What’s the number one thing you have learned through this process?
RG (36:13):
Patience, maybe
AJV (36:53):
I love that. And third question what would be the one piece of advice that you would give to someone who is going, I’ve got a topic, I’ve got a message that’s worth it for me. Right. The time, sweat, tears, money. It’s worth it to me. Yeah. What should I do first? What should I do first? Isha, what’s your one piece of advice?
RG (37:17):
I would run the, run the idea by a lot of different people to see what the interest is. Because some, sometimes things that are important to you may not be important to a massive group of people that that you need to buy this book and read this book. I know that we talk a lot about, well that’s important to you, but it’s
RG (38:00):
So you wanna make sure that there’s a beginning, a middle, and an end. And I think I think there are people out there who are willing to maybe look at your synopsis if you’ve put together a synopsis and, and tell you what they think. And I think you have to that’s where your gut comes in though, because sometimes those people are gonna be wrong, even though they they are people that you trust, admire, you know, believe in. You’ve seen them do it over and over. Sometimes, you know, people will look at something you have and say, it’s not gonna work, but in your gut, if you know it’s gonna work, you also need to need to run with it. So yeah, just, I, I believe in bouncing stuff off of people. I think that’s really, especially for something like a book, I mean, you want a lot of people to buy it, so make sure that it means something to other people besides yourself.
AJV (38:50):
It’s so good. You said something that made me think about this thing. So we read a lot in the Vaden household. It’s part of our jobs, but also part we love it. Like we love books we love reading. And we have this thing where if we read a book or listen to a book we’ll always ask you, how was it? And we have this saying in our house with my husband and I, and we’ll go I’ll always say, well, it should have been a blog. And he’s said, what do you mean? And I’m like, should have been a blog
RG (39:28):
Yes.
AJV (39:28):
And everything else just turned into stories and fluffy stuff because you had this amazing idea, but there wasn’t enough to make it a book. Right? It should have been a chapter of the book, not the book. And so we, now we now we have this saying is like, was it, you know, was it a book, a blog, or a podcast? Like what, what was it?
RG (39:48):
Yes.
AJV (39:49):
It’s like we get so excited, but we forget now. This has to go for a lot of pages, a lot of words. Yes. Is there enough depth into it or should it be a chapter? Should it be a blog or a podcast?
RG (40:01):
AJV (40:24):
So, so good. And Isha, if people want to read your book which is more than a blog, so please go read this book. It will be the whole book,
RG (40:37):
Go to Amazon. Be better than your bss. How Radical Acceptance empowers Authenticity and Creates a Workplace Culture of Inclusion.
AJV (40:46):
So y’all, you heard it here, go to Amazon, pick up the book better than your BS by Isha grant. And if you wanna just be extremely specific, just go to the show notes of this episode. I’ll have the exact Amazon link in there. Go buy a copy and help this woman hit the bestseller list. Isha, we are so excited for you. We love you so much, and everybody else, thank you. See you next time on the Influential Personal.
Ep 406: Turning Your Story Into A Message with Damon West
AJV (00:02):
Hey, y’all, and welcome to the Influential Personal Brand podcast. This is AJ Vaden to hear AJ Vaden here. And I am joined today with a newer friend, ab, but a friend who has lots of mutual friends with myself and Rory. So, so glad to be adding Damon West to our list of amazing guests on this podcast, but also a new friend in our, you know, circle. So before I start this interview, I want to remind everyone, as I always do, why you should stick around and who this podcast was uniquely designed for. So, number one, if you have a desire to write and publish books, speak on stages, and get your message out into the world, which should be most of you, which is why you listen to this podcast. This is an episode that you wanna listen to because we’re gonna talk about how Damon went from, you know football player, college football to prison, to author, speaker on stages, and a lot of things in between there.
AJV (01:05):
But ultimately, it’s like, it does not matter where you are today. If you have that desire on your heart, there is a way to make all of the things of your past a part of this story that leads you to where you wanna be. And so we’re gonna delve into that. We’re also gonna talk about just how do you do that? Like, how do you get outta prison and go, I’m gonna change my life. I’m gonna do something different. I’m gonna make different choices. And they’re big and they’re bold, and they’re not what I expected. And I know a lot of people in our community are entering into new phases of their life, and perhaps it’s not that dramatic, right? That transformative, but to some degree, we’re starting over. It’s a new time on our life, whether it’s we’ve sold a business, starting a new business, we’re leaving a company trying to go out on our own.
AJV (01:50):
We’re trying to take this side hustle. We’ve been doing it and making it our full-time thing. Or maybe you’re just stepping out on a limb for the first time going, man, I want to do this, but I am scared now. This is hard and new, and what am I doing? Like, what am I crazy? So it doesn’t matter where you fall within that spectrum, this is a podcast that is gonna be uniquely inspiring and informative to you. So I encourage you to stick around. So now I could give you a whole bunch of background bio. I mentioned a little bit of it, but as I formally introduced Damon here are just f to me. Here’s a couple of things that I think would be really powerful for you to know. Is one yes, he did go to prison. I think you should know, like, this is someone who, when they talk about setbacks, when they talk about, oh yeah, I made some bad choices. Like this led to some pretty severe consequences. And it was in prison for a few years, so it’s not like, you know, three days in a white collar, you know, prison upstate, right? It’s a different type. And I think that’s really important for us to get. It’s like, regardless of how bad you think your situation is, or, oh, I can’t change from now. Like, well, no, that’s not true. He is the author of now three books or four,
DW (03:06):
Well, four in a children’s book. So yeah, four four in a children’s book. Yeah. So
AJV (03:11):
The list is growing even as we speak. Yeah. But also he’s been on stages all across the country. He is a, well, you know, well sought after speaker. He is a multi-time author and also an entrepreneur. So everyone who is listens to this, you’ve got some degree of some of those things within you. And so I know, I know that you’re gonna love this interview. So Damon, welcome, welcome to the show,
DW (03:35):
Aj. Thanks a lot, so much. I mean, you covered so much in that introduction too, but look, it’s, it’s so exciting to be here. Like you said, we do have a lot of mutual friends, Amber Lee, ed Mullet, you know, ed Ed’s a very big mutual friend of mine, John Gordon, Catherine Gordon. So it’s great to finally meet you and, and be a part of your show because I’ve got a lot to say about what we’re gonna talk about today, about building your brand and, and how do you make it, how do you break away from the pack and chase your dreams in life? Because like you said, I had to do it. I mean, and like, and you hit the nail in the head. It’s not like I went to prison for a couple years. I got sentenced to life in prison in Dallas, Texas, and I spent seven years and three months of that life sentence in a maximum security level five prison in the state of Texas. The highest security level there is, or the worst of the worst go. And then I made parole, I made parole, and I’m on parole AJ until the year 2073. Hmm. So when you talk about making plans and having to follow the rules of your plan every single day, I got, I got a lot to say about that.
AJV (04:36):
Yeah. Well, I mean, and that’s a part of what I kind of wanna just start, start with. And I know people are gonna be like are you gonna give us more of that story? Because Yeah. In the world. And so here’s my first question for you. It’s like you have this amazing journey from successful college athlete to prison inmate to motivational speaker and ler. And that’s quite the remarkable journey in your short 47 years. So can you just share with the listeners who maybe are getting introduced to you for the first time, what are some of those pivotal moments or mindset shifts that allowed you to transform? Right. And I, and I would say too, it’s like maybe in some of the not so awesome ways, right? Because I know that there was an accident during your football days and yeah. That led to choices that were transformative to the more positive transformative. So what were these moments that happened in your life that led to such an influential personal brand today?
DW (05:36):
Yeah. I think that the way to start this off is by, you know, I tell people all the time that at no point in my life did, did God just reached out with his hand hand one day and put his hand on my head and said, Damon, you’re healed
DW (06:18):
But I was a very functional addict. And I graduated college, went to work in the United States Congress, worked on Wall Street. I was a broker for UBS when I was introduced to meth for the first time. And I say that there’s been people put in my life because the choices that we make in life are gonna take us down different roads. And as you alluded to, some roads are good, some roads are bad, but there’s always gonna be messengers along the way on those roads to help guide you where you need to be. But the trick is, you have to be receptive to all those messengers. And sometimes when we’re not in the right space, we don’t, we’re not receptive. We can’t hear or see the messenger in front of us. And I made a lot of wrong turns, again, with that fork in the road.
DW (06:57):
When I tried meth for the first time in 2004, 18 months after their first hit of meth, I was living on the streets of Dallas and I became a criminal. I started breaking into people’s houses to fund my addiction. And and the Dallas SWAT team got me in 2008 and they, they arrested me in this traumatic SWAT team raid. And they took me to Dallas County Jail. And then a year later I was sentenced to life in prison. My mother and my father had this conversation with me. They, they right after I’m sentenced to life, they, they let my parents talk to me for five minutes, just kind of on the side of the courtroom. And my mom was reminded me about how they raised me, how, you know, the stuff they heard in the courtroom isn’t the man they raised. In fact, she tells me, when you go to prison, you, you won’t get in one of these gangs.
DW (07:39):
She said, you come back as the man we raised or don’t come back to us at all. So now I’ve got this giant ultimatum and I don’t know how I’m gonna do it, AJ cuz I’ve never been to prison before. I don’t know anything about prison. And I’m in this Dallas County jail complex for the next two months before the prison bus comes to get me. And I have this encounter with one of those people that I would call the messengers in life that’s an old black man named Mr. Jackson. Mr. Jackson shares with me what prison’s gonna be like. And he’s telling me about the violence I’m gonna endure the first couple months. But he tells me things like, you don’t have to win all your fights, you just have to fight all your fights. You know, and that’s true in life. No one counts your wins and losses, but everybody kind of watches the seat as he or she get back up.
DW (08:19):
And that’s what he’s telling me, get back up. But he, but he tells me this, he says, let me break it down from your different way. And that’s when he tells me, he said, I want you to imagine prison as a pot of wine, water. And he said, you have three choices of how you’re gonna respond to this pot of wine water. You can be like the carrot that turns soft, the egg that becomes hard in the boil water, or a coffee bean, which changes the pot of wine water into a pot of coffee. Hmm. And that a agent, when he told me the story about the coffee bean, I remember, I was like, I can understand that. And that’s the way people’s reactions are five to 95 years old when they hear about the coffee bean for the first time. Because you can wrap your brain around those three choices.
DW (08:55):
Mm-Hmm. So Mr. Jackson is one of those people that I met in life that guided me. He was a mentor. Cuz we all need mentors, aj, everybody needs coaches. We all have to have coaches in life. But as I went through prison, I ran into other people in there. There was my, my first cellmate Carlos, you know, Carlos was explaining to me about thinking how your thinking is everything. Your thoughts control your actions, and if you have the wrong thoughts, you can’t have the right actions. And, and so he helped me with the way I think. And a, as I got through the prison process and I started transforming myself in that prison to a pot of a pot of coffee. The parole board came and took notice and they allowed me to leave prison early on parole. Now, as I said, I’m on parole for the rest of my life, but since I got outta prison in 2015, I’ve ran into these other messengers in life because now I’m hyper aware of the roads that I’m on.
DW (09:41):
And I’m looking for those messenger every day. But I’m gonna tell you something, aj, the main thing I’m looking for every day is how do I serve other people? Because that’s like what I pray for every day, aj. I just, man, I just wanna know two things every day from God put in front of me what you need me to do today for you, and let me recognize it when I see it cuz I don’t wanna miss whatever that is. And that’s like the first key to everything else you’re gonna open in life is that the secret to life is serving other people. How do I serve others? Mm.
AJV (10:11):
That’s so good. And you know, it’s so interesting. I have a friend right now who’s really suffering from addiction. And we just had a conversation this past weekend about choices, right? There are defining choices. And then there’s daily choices, right? We have these daily decisions we have to make and we have these defining choices that we have to make. And those daily decisions turn into habits, right? Which could be good or bad. And these defining ones are the ones that can send us down one of these roads and that every, and I love what you said, like every road has, you know, messengers alongside the road. And it sounds like to me it’s like prison saved you.
DW (10:51):
It did. Yeah. It was, was getting a life sentence on top, not just prison, but being sentenced to life in prison. Aj my, my angels in life, my angels didn’t have wings. My angels had a assault rifle. They had shields, they had helmets. They, they came through the window, they busted outta my door. They were a SWAT team. Mm-Hmm.
DW (11:36):
And, and there’s many different levels of adversity and there’s a lot of different ways to be in prison. Aj mm-hmm.
DW (12:15):
But it took some serious adversity in my life to make me get off this comfort zone that I’ve been in in life, even when I was in, on drugs and, and, and in my addiction. There’s a comfort zone that people get into. Misery is a very comfortable place too. And your friend that’s going through that right now, you’re right. It’s the daily choice every day that you have to make to change these, to make these good habits. And whenever I was in prison and my back was against the wall and I just surrendered because that’s one of the keys to all this. You gotta surrender this idea of control over things you do not control. Once I surrendered that, I started, I was able to work on myself and, and look, yeah, you’re right. Prison did save my life. And one of the things I talk about with people all the time is that, especially people that wanna get up there and speak or write books, is that, and, and Ed, my ed, ed and I talked about this when I was on his podcast, the things that you think might be the, that the disqualifiers in your life, because the things that have gone wrong, the, the places you messed up, those actually may be the great qualifiers for you to help someone else.
DW (13:16):
You know, these are the things, yeah. These, the things you think disqualify you might be the great qualifiers. Your liabilities may be your biggest asset. But how do you turn that around? How do you make that into a message that people can digest and understand?
AJV (13:30):
I mean, I would say, I think for the most part, and you know, I’ll speak for just myself, but it’s like when I listen to speakers and read books, it’s like, I think most would agree that I don’t really wanna hear about all the successful things that you’ve done
AJV (14:14):
What if that happened to me? Like what would I do? Like, would I let it grow me or would I let it destroy me? And it’s like, those are the stories that are, in my opinion, more transformative, more life giving than hearing from the person who got it right all the time. Did all the right things. Not that those are bad. It’s good to hear those stories too. But I think there’s something about that comeback story that for most people they’re like, okay, well if you did it, there’s hope for me. So here’s my question in that, because you are speaking on stages and you, you are so vulnerable with your stories and you don’t hold back, which I love and I appreciate. So here, here’s, here’s something for the audience, I think it’s like how do you incorporate those sorts of elements of your story into speaking engagements and books and even interviews like this where one, what did you have to overcome to be like, yeah, I’m, I’m just gonna be honest, right?
AJV (15:12):
I’m just going to tell you what happened. I’m gonna tell you the truth. So how do you do that one and how do you do it in a way that’s beneficial for me? Not just hearing your story, but also, you know, we always say it’s like you tell an eye focus story with a you focus message because I think you do that really well. But then also for those people who are going, yeah, that, that’s cool for you to do, but my story’s so dark, it’s never gonna see the light of day. Like what advice would you give to that person who has that story? And it really does need to be heard, but they’re afraid to share it.
DW (15:45):
Great question. And you tapped on a little bit of it just now and, and you, you talked about vulnerability. Vulnerability is a strength. Vulnerability gets a bad rap. I mean, people think of the word a lot of times people think vulnerable vulnerability means you’re weak. It’s some, it’s some form of weakness. Vulnerability’s a strength because when you’re vulnerable, you let those walls down, those guards down, you show how human you are. And like you said, that draws people in. Now someone says, Hey look, you know, that person’s been through something, I’ve been through something. Maybe there’s something they’re gonna say that’s gonna help me get through what I’m about to go through next. And here’s the deal. Everybody’s got a story out there. I i I believe that everybody’s got their personal stories of overcoming. And you said it earlier in the show, everybody, people need to hear those stories cuz we, you know, we’re all gonna relate to people in different ways.
DW (16:32):
And your story may be the one thing that helps somebody get through their worst day. So if you’re trying to figure out how to tell your story, I’ll just give you what happened to me when I got outta prison in 2015. I’m on parole for the rest of my life and, but I know I’m sitting on this really powerful story wrapped around this great message. And there’s the first part, the story that I can tell and the message within. I think if you’re gonna be out there speaking, have a message, have this, and this is your brand, this is what you build your brand around. What’s the message like? My call to action at the end of every presentation is be a coffee beat. Mm-Hmm.
DW (17:13):
The last four words he ever said were be a coffee beat. But it was a statement, it was an order. Like, go do this. And that’s what you want to build a message inside your story. But I think that you have to work your way up to that. And, and if you’re trying to tell a story in front of an audience, it’s like reading a book. If a book doesn’t grab me in the first seven pages, I’m shocking it aj I’m not, I’m not re it’s, you got seven pages
DW (17:48):
Mm-Hmm.
DW (18:30):
DW (19:10):
No one’s gonna let me in. I found a cop and a judge that would take me around and sponsor me to, to take me into schools. But I knew that if I wanted to have a presentation and I wanted to be able to tell a story, the message within it, that would be impactful. Because that’s what you have to do. You have to figure out how am I gonna serve this audience? How am I gonna serve the reader? It’s all about serving people. We talked about this earlier, servant leadership. How am I gonna serve this audience? I knew I had to practice and get good at my message. There’s no such thing as an overnight success, aj. You know that. I know that. But people are drawn to that when they see those, those Instagram account accounts with the private jets, the Lamborghini and all that.
DW (19:48):
I want that. I want that. Well, you know, it takes a long time to get to something, you know, a lot of hard work. Most of the days that I spent the first two years outta prison were not in front of audiences. They were in my parents’ spare bedroom cuz there was a mirror in that spare bedroom. It just happened to be there. When I moved in every single day I’d come home from work, I worked at a law firm, which is a really good job for a guy outta prison,
DW (20:27):
The mirror was my audience, but I sharpened it up. I was poised, I was ready to go. And then in 2017 dabble Sweeney, the head coach at Clemson, brings me in to talk to his team. The first big college football coach in America that gives me my shot and my presentation was so on point, so direct on message and it, and it served Dabo s team so well that Dabo got on the phone. He started calling every coach in America for me. I mean, Nick Saban, Kirby smart Lincoln Riley, he’s calling ’em all up and he’s telling about this guy he gotta bring in. But Dabo introduced me to a guy named John Gordon. And then John Gordon calls me up out of the blue and he’s telling me, he is like, Hey man, I was just, I just got done talking to Clemson’s football team and Dabo was telling me about your story and, and, and the coffee bean message.
DW (21:15):
And, and that’s when John says, Hey Damon, write this book with me. We’ll call it the coffee bean. He said, the world needs your message. This is where I think that you, a lot of people give up before they get to this point, but growth follows belief. And you have to believe in yourself before other people will believe in you. And the belief in yourself is gonna become from the consistency, getting in your reps, putting in the work. And that’s the thing about life. You know, no one could put in your work for, you have to put in your own work in life. But when you get that belief in yourself and, and the reps behind it, then I think other people will believe in you because your message has to be developed. And when it gets in front of other people, cuz like you said, you don’t, you know, you hear these stories about people wanna talk about the goods they had done pour out about the stuff you overcame. That’s the, that’s where the secret sauce is.
AJV (22:06):
Yeah, I love that. And I love just that reinforcement of you have to be ready before the opportunity comes, right? Yeah. You’ve gotta be doing this way before you get your chance. But it also, it’s like I really like, I think one of the things that if, as you’re listening, you haven’t picked up on this before, it’s like there, you’ve gotta have a message deep within you that is bigger than any obstacle, bigger than any rejection. It’s like, I don’t care how many times I’m gonna get told no. Like I know I’m meant to do this. So if I have to practice it for myself in front of the mirror for the next two years, then so be it. But I know that this, this is the message that I have to go out and share. And I think that’s just a really good reminder for all of us is like, it takes time, it takes practice, it does not happen overnight.
AJV (22:54):
And not only does it not hope that it happen overnight, it’s like no, you’re doing tons of work behind the scenes no matter what you’re doing. And anyone who has started a business, started a family in a marriage, raising kids, you know, doesn’t matter what it is, how much work it takes that no one sees before anything actually works. And so one of the questions that, as you were talking about, cuz you mentioned talking to football teams, but you also talk to lots of corporate audiences. You talk to all types of audiences. And I was just like looking at your client list on your speaker press kit as I was prepping for this interview. And it’s like, man, you’ve got audiences that range from students to corporations to associations. And clearly your books have mass audience appeal. And one of the questions that I have for you with such like a powerful, unique story, right?
AJV (23:45):
Is what, what are the common themes or messages that you’re able to kind of universally share with audiences that regardless of their background, like these apply? And then how do you find those, right? Because I know, and I’m just thinking at, we just came off the hills of a two day event that we hosted for our community and brand builders group. And I think one of the things that people have a hard time doing is translating these like deeply personal messages that it’s like, I know if I’m in, if I’m in a room full of, you know, student athletes, I’m gonna crush it, but how do I make that work with a group of, you know, direct saleswomen from Arban or whatever, and it’s like, yeah. So how do you take these like big powerful stories and find these common themes as you mentioned, these messages of your stories that resonate across any audience?
DW (24:39):
Great question, John. So when John reaches out to me and he’s telling me, Hey, let’s write this book, we’ll call it the coffee meeting. We start becoming friends. John’s watching me grow as a speaker and he is about to really watch, watch Me grow as an author because John Gordon’s about to hitch me to his, to his rocket ship and put me out there in a different level, right? And he knows what’s coming. And he told me this, Roy, I mean he told me this aj he said, listen, he said, Damon, he said, you have been going out sharing your message and you have been sharing this. Be a coffee beam, man. That’s your brand. That’s your message. Be a coffee beam, you see it behind me, see it on my shirts, you see it everywhere. He said, stick with this. He said, and I’m gonna tell you this, a lot of speakers, a lot of authors, they’ll go and they don’t see a result fast enough.
DW (25:26):
And three years, four years down the line, they don’t see the results coming in yet. And then they changed their message, they changed their brand and they go a different direction because they weren’t seeing the results fast enough. He said, results take time to measure. I’ll never forget that. He said, stick with be a coffee bean. He said one day, if you do this, you’ll be known as the coffee bean guy. And that’s gonna be a pretty big thing to be known as. He said, I’m known as the energy bus guy. And that’s a very big thing to be known as. Stick with the coffee bean. Don’t ever change your brand or your message no matter what audience you get in front of. It’s always gotta be about being a coffee bean. When John told me that, that’s like one of these huge nuggets, and I know you and Rory talk about this a lot.
DW (26:09):
You gotta to build your brand, you gotta stay consistently on message. Now how does that translate? Because if I’m going to talk to a bunch of 18 to 22 year old college athletes, you know, there’s one message for them, right? And then there, if I’m going to talk to corporate America, if, if Walmart or AIG brings me into a corporate boardroom, what am I gonna say to them? Here’s what I would tell you. Do your research, tailor your message to fit your audience. Know what stories go with what groups, but never leave behind that core message. Every group I’ve spoken, and at this point aj, I’ve spoken to thousands, not a thousand, two, 3000 different audiences in that time. And I’ve never not told the story of the coffee bean, and I’ve never not told my backstory. Now, is my backstory the same in a corporate audience as it is in front of a college athletic?
DW (26:59):
No. Mm-hmm.
DW (27:46):
This is the same thing was what I’m saying right here. Now you’ve individualized it, you’ve personalized it for your group in front of ’em. They know that you put in the work to come and sit in front of them that day. You didn’t just come there to get a check, you came there to serve mm-hmm.
AJV (28:14):
I love that. What I wrote down, and I think this is such a good reminder for me to remind our whole community about this. So for everyone listening, it’s just the power of, you know what Damon just said, it’s like you have to know how to tailor your presentation, not change your message. Yeah. Right? It’s like, no, your message is your message and that’s what you wanna be known for. And I tell you what, Damon, you should have some like pretty big endorsements coming and you need to be hitting up like Starbucks and all the coffee shop
DW (28:43):
I’m tried.
AJV (28:44):
If you’re the coffee bean man, you need to be like Starbucks. Where at all,
DW (28:48):
I’ve tried Starbucks. It’s hard to get through to it. If you know somebody from Starbucks and we get off air, tell me, because I, my gosh,
AJV (28:54):
God, gosh. Well, I’m a bulletproof coffee girl, so i’s been a mile, it’s been a minute since I’ve been to Starbucks, but I will tell you, it’s like, but it’s like, again, it’s like once you become known for that thing, it’s like in brand builders group language, it’s called what we call breaking through she hands wall. It’s like you wanna be a power washer, not a water hose, right? Yeah. It’s like you, you’ve gotta just know exactly what your message is. And when people think of you, they need to think of coffee bean story, right? It’s like, when I think of a coffee bean story, I think of Damon. When I think of Damon, I think about these coffee beans and it’s like, once that happens, then you have broken through Sheehan’s wall, right? And then that’s a great reminder for all of us is tailor the presentation.
AJV (29:32):
But don’t change your message. Don’t change your message. I love that. That’s such a good reminder. And I’m also, I’m watching the clock and we have like five or six minutes left, and I actually wanna ask you two more personal development questions kind of about these books that you’ve written. And you’ve invested a lot of time into this message in writing these books. And so there’s two last questions I have for you. So, all right. I know that a huge part of what you talk about, what you write about is resilience, perseverance, and mindset, right? There’s lots more. But those are three things that stood out to me. And so some tactical advice for anyone who is listening or just for me what are some key strategies or practices that individuals like me and everyone listening that, that can adopt to help increase these qualities of perseverance? Resilience mindset shifts to navigate setbacks in our personal or professional lives. So it’s like a, when you know, the, you know, s h i t hits the fan. I’m on a, I’m on a non cussing roll right now so I can spell it, can’t say it
DW (30:43):
No, great question because we all go through this and, and, and is look, John, our friend John Gordon. John says that fear and faith have more in common than the letter F to begin with. John says, fear and faith, both believe in futures that haven’t happened yet. Fear is this negative future. You can choose to believe in that you get the choice, that’s good. But faith is a positive future. You get the choice to believe in that too. And you can choose your path every day. And it’s always better to choose faith over fear. If you’re gonna pick a future that hadn’t happened, pick the positive one. And this is where I, I try to like land every day, is like, I’ve gotta focus on the positive every single day because there’s gonna be negativity around me. There’s gonna be things that happen in life that can pull you out of this, this good time that you’re in.
DW (31:29):
But you gotta focus on the positive. I learned two things about diversity in life inside that maximum security prison, aj, this is what I learned. I’ve learned that adversity’s never as bad as you think it’s gonna be. Hmm. And you are always capable of way more than you think you are. Mm-Hmm.
DW (32:16):
Is it the traffic or is it you? It’s always gonna be you. And it’s always how you see three words that I love putting together. Position determines perspective. Mm-Hmm.
DW (33:03):
He said, man, these eight coaches are gonna be in this room. The best coach in America is gonna be named. I can sneak you in. I’m at the event right now. I drove an hour and a half because this event, he sneaks me in the back door and I’m there and I, I go open to meet all these coaches cuz I got this story I wanted to share with them. And every coach I met that night, AJ slammed the door in my face. They all told me no, there was one coach left one hour. It took me to get seven nos in one hour. I mean, I’ve been defeated that night and I’m in the corner of the Toyota Center. I’m getting ready to leave. I’m licking my wounds, feeling sorry for myself. The voice in my head is telling me, go home. You’re an imposter.
DW (33:36):
You don’t belong the imposter syndrome. And, and know we’re all gonna, you’re gonna go through this. When you’re out there speaking and writing a book, you’re gonna ask yourself sometimes, do I belong here? But let me tell you something, do not listen to yourself. Talk to yourself, because the voice in your head can be fear. Mm-Hmm.
AJV (34:28):
I love that. I love that so much. It’s sometimes we just need a little dose of inspiration to go, I got this, I can do this. I can do hard things. I took my kids on a hike yesterday to just commemorate Memorial Day and just like, just really just a, an hour and a half of just like, silence and helping my kids understand what Memorial Day is all about. And halfway through this hour and a half long ha now my kids are small, they’re almost four and just turned six. This is a long, this just feels like a marathon for them, right? It’s not that long. It’s two and a half miles, but it felt like a marathon for these small humans. And my husband ends up carrying my four year old, but my six-year-old, I’m like, Hey, if you can make it all the way back to the car, you get a sticker and a sticker is worth a quarter.
AJV (35:14):
And at the end of the week he gets to turn in his stickers for quarters for doing hard things. And he’s like, I get a sticker. And I’m like, yeah, I’m gonna give you a sticker buddy. It’s like 25 oh cents. It’s the whole quarter, right? And he gets motivated and he’s like, he’s hustling. And we get towards the end, he goes, mom, I just, I need to quit. I’m like, you need to quit. He goes, yeah, I need to quit, mama. My feet hurt. I need to quit. I’m like, nobody. And I pause like in the middle of all these people, they’re probably like, who is this crazy, like, you know, like cheerleader mom. And I’m like sitting there and I’m like, I need you to say this with me. I can do hard things. I’m like, yes, yes, I can do hard things. He’s like, no mom, I can’t say that. You’re so embarrassing. And I’m like screaming at the top of my lungs, I can do hard things. And and it was like, tell me,
DW (36:00):
Roy’s recording this while you’re doing it.
AJV (36:02):
Wish she was recording of it. I think she was quite a while back carrying my four-year-old. And here’s like the craziest part. It’s like, I don’t know if it helped him, but it helped me. It’s like, I hope it helped him, but it helped me. And it was like such a reminder that it’s like, no, I can do hard things. Like I hope Jasper, that you got something outta that. But at the end of the day, it’s like, after saying it like 10 times screaming in the middle of the state park, I’m like, no, I can do hard things. And I needed that reminder. And it’s like, sometimes it’s like, gosh, we just need to remind ourselves. Oh
DW (36:37):
My God, aj I love that. Cuz you’re hitting on something that, that, that is like the big force in my life that’s going on. Like every time I go out and I serve other people, this helps other people. I, I know it does and I hope it does, but I know one person it helps for sure. Mm-Hmm.
AJV (37:46):
Yeah. That, like when you were saying that, it just reminded me of that yesterday. It’s like, I don’t actually know if it helped him
DW (38:17):
Take your time. I don’t care. This is a fun conversation. Go on, go as long as you want. Let’s go.
AJV (38:21):
So in the Coffee Bean, the book, which everyone should go and check out, which I think is so great, and I’ll use this as my, you know public service announcements. If you want to check out more about Damon West and his speaking, his books, all the things he has going on and also grab a copy of this book, the Coffee Bean. He’s got other books too. He is got one for kids. Go to damon west.org. So that’s damon west.org. And then again, the book is called The Coffee Bean. It’s co-written with John Gordon. He’s got a version for kids, which I love all kids books, so I’ll be picking that up myself. Or follow him on Instagram, which is at Damon West seven. So it’s at Damon West seven on Instagram. Or just go to damon west.org and you can get all of his social themes there.
AJV (39:09):
But I’ll also, we’ll put this on the show notes for you. Okay. So last question. In a coffee bean, you talk about the importance of mindset and in my interpretation, how that can shape our influence, how it can shape our personal brand. So here’s my last question for that person who really does need to cultivate this, I can do hard things mindset. For the person who does have a lot of limiting beliefs, what would you say is the number one thing for that individual to cultivate a growth mindset? A I can do hard things. This overcoming of self-limiting beliefs. Like what would you say is the one thing that they can do to really well both build their personal brand, which for us is just their reputation, but also to just live a better life. Like, what is the thing that we can do to change our mindset, to build a better mindset?
DW (40:01):
Yeah. This is, this is something that, that I had to remind myself of, and I think every one of us do. And aside from the things you just said, because that’s very important. You just said something very important because your brand is your reputation. This is you. This is like, you know, everything about what you’re putting out. That’s your reputation. So guard that, but it’s consistency. Be consistent. Take the same action every single day. And, and you know whenever, whenever you’re consistent, you start building this confidence in yourself because like, you know, ed talks about this a lot. You keep promises that you make to yourself. Mm-Hmm. But be consistent. Show up every day. One of the hardest things about working out is just getting to the gym. And if you can get yourself to the place where you need to be every day to be consistent, that’s when it’s gonna happen.
DW (40:48):
But it’s gonna take time. And just understand that, that you have to put in the work. But consistency trumps everything else. Consistency can beat talent. By the way, talent is great to have, but talent doesn’t beat someone who is consistent and won’t go away. Someone who’s persistent. Someone that gets in front of the, a mirror in a spare bedroom where they live on parole and practices a presentation that one day is gonna be their business that, that they use to create other businesses with. Because the speaking business, I mean, you know, aj it’s something I never, I, I tell my wife almost daily that I cannot believe this is my life and I get to go out and impact a world like this. But it provides for a, a life for my family that’s created generational wealth. I mean, every generation’s changed underneath me now, but it started out in my parents’ fair bedroom, speaking in front of a mirror for two years to get my presentation right, to go speak one time in front of Dabo Sweeney. You know, that’s what it’s about. Being consistent.
AJV (41:47):
I love that. You know, I’m, I’m actually, I’m reading through the Old Testament right now. I’m in this like Bible and a year program and I’m reading through the Old Testament. And one of the things that has stuck out to me most about the Old Testament is how often people get their answers or their desires given to them is persistence. Like, I can’t, I, I’m gonna start counting like how many times a king said, yes, I’ll resolve this, just leave me alone. Or how many times it was just like pure persistence, pure dis consistent. I’m gonna show up every day at this, at this king’s doorstep. I’m gonna show up every day at this, at my master’s door, and I’m gonna ask and I’m gonna ask. And they’re like, oh my gosh, just I’ll give you whatever you want. Stop asking me. Yeah. And it’s such a great reminder that it’s like so much power comes in persistence.
DW (42:36):
And you’re in the Old Testament right now, like the book of Job man. If you want to read a story about a guy that was consistent and just showed up every day while the S H I T was hitting the fan read job, man. This dude, this dude endured way more than any anybody you can imagine. For years this went on, lost his entire fam. I mean, everything was taken, but he had faith and he had consistently, consistently, he believed every day that I have faith in this and it’s gonna work out. And that’s, you gotta have what they call the patience’s a joke. You know, I tell people all the time that that since we’re talking about the Old Testament, that that God doesn’t set bushes on fire anymore. H ha that’s a very Old Testament thing that God did to get people’s attention. But you know what God does today? God sets people on fire. Mm-Hmm.
AJV (43:44):
Reach it. Love this. Y’all check out Damon. Go to damon west.org, check him out, follow him, buy his books. Spread the spread. This good news Damon so, so awesome to have you on the show. Thank you so much for sharing your story and these words of wisdom. And for everyone else, stay tuned for the recap episode. That will be coming up later this week. We’ll see you next time. Thanks so much.
DW (44:10):
Thank you. Thank you.
Ep 404: How Chicken Soup for the Soul Sold 500 Million Books with Patty Aubery
Speaker 1 (00:02):
The first time I met Jack Canfield, I was just a young whipper snapper in my early twenties at the National Speakers Association. Over the years, we’ve gotten to know each other a little bit. I’ve interviewed him a couple times. And now I’m so excited because I get to introduce you to Patty Aubery, and she is the president of the Canfield Training Group. So that’s her current role. But she also formerly was one of the people behind building the Chicken Soup for the Soul Series. And then they, that became a billion dollar brand. They sold that business. And so we’re gonna hear a little bit about that story and how they did it and what they’re up to today at Canfield Group. But Patty also is the author of a group of a book called Permission Granted. And she talks about really like how to find the, the bold courage to go out there and just claim and own your voice and share your message. So she was an easy and obvious fit to bring here to the show. And anyways, Patty, great to meet you.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Thanks. Thanks for having me. It’s nice to meet you too.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
So, and I love, you’re a part-time Nashvillian and a part-time Santa Barbaran, which are, those are, those are great places to be. So you’re, you’re, we’ll have to hook up in person when you’re here, but I’d love to start at the start. And this is probably not the start, but when I, when I think of, when you say Chicken Soup for the Soul, I mean, that is in such a category of its own. I mean, it’s, it’s just, it’s so far different. And, and not just one book, but the whole series. I would love to just hear how did it start and then what did it become? And just like, how did you even meet Jack and, and how did you guys get connected and y you know, just like, walk us through the story.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
So I, it was like 1989. I was living in Santa Barbara actually at the time, and I was working for a tech company that sold government software and I hated it. And I was always in trouble. I was not meant to live in a cubicle
Speaker 2 (02:34):
You don’t have a choice. Uhhuh
Speaker 1 (03:49):
Wow. Interest inflation.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
And he said, okay, can you have lunch? I’m like, wow. He is smart and he is easy. This is a good thing. And so I ended up taking the job, went home, told my dad who flipped out, you’re gonna work for a hippie. I send you to business school. What’s wrong with, you know, he just flipped
Speaker 2 (04:32):
And then one day he came home, I think it was like right after I started in July. In September, he came to the office and said, you know, I go out and do all these talks and everybody keeps saying, do you have that story in a book? Mostly women? Do you have the story in a book? He’s like, no, but it’s on my Nightingale Conone tapes, or it’s on my career track tapes. Or, you know, and women would say, but I don’t listen to audio tapes because I’m in the car. I’m out of the car. I, you know, I, I read. So I think the universe is telling us to take all the best stories from all the best speakers and put ’em in a book. And I said, okay, thank God I was 24. I had no opinion. ’cause If it was today, I’d be like, what are you talking about?
Speaker 2 (05:08):
So I started working on it with them. And we published our first book in 1993. As you know, we had a hard time finding a publisher, if you’ve heard, a lot of people have heard that story. And we ended up with a real small publisher at a Deerfield beach, which was the biggest blessing on the planet because he owned his own printing press. Ah. And so by, it took us about 14 months to hit a, a bestseller list. And we did every wacky crazy marketing thing you could do. John Kramer’s, 1001 things to market your book. I mean, we did every one of ’em, maybe except for a couple hundred. And at the very tail end of getting the but together, mark and Jack met at a breakfast club and Mark said, Hey, I should do that book with you. And Jack said, okay. And so that was a whole new Mark, Victor
Speaker 1 (05:55):
Hanson, everyone that Victor Hanson see that she’s talking about. Yep. So
Speaker 2 (05:58):
And so
Speaker 1 (05:59):
Who was also an n s Aer. And they, so they, they had known each other, I guess for a while.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
They kind of knew each other, but not well. But Mark, you know, mark is so gregarious and could sell anything to anybody, and Jack’s much more of an introvert. So it was a good team, and it was great for me because I got to learn the, the really anal side of Jack as a teacher. Every detail he explains. And I also got to have Mark’s brain of, you know, come on, kid. Bake it till you make it. If you believe it, you’ll see it. I mean, I’m like, okay, if this stuff doesn’t work, mark work, start a church. ’cause Mark was also a Bible scholar,
Speaker 1 (07:18):
The same publisher.
Speaker 2 (07:19):
Same publisher, okay,
Speaker 1 (07:21):
So this is not, this is not like a major New York publishing deal where they’re paying you a book advance and push pushing your book everywhere. This is like a small publisher pr basically, basically like a vanity, like a hybrid publisher today. Maybe you printing your own books.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
Well, they’re, they, they were a regular publisher, but they printed like recovery books like John Bradshaw, you know, healing the Inner Child, Melanie Beatty, recovery Books, addiction, things like that. So they were little, but he had had a couple bestsellers Okay. In the past. And so when he saw the number start climbing, he bought the highest end German printing press. Like he got prepared, he saw, and he would call me, he is like, keep those chickens rolling. I mean, he’d sing to me, you know, I’m like, oh God. Another book. You know, we marketed the first book forever before anything happened. So when Marcy said that, we did that book, and then we thought, well, what else could we do? And then the next book, my mom was diagnosed with cancer, and my sister had come to work for me and she said, why don’t we put a bunch of stories together for mom about people that have survived cancer? And I said, so all you authors out there listening, or anybody that’s thinking about having a big dream, the words that came outta my mouth, which are embarrassing, were, well, why would they let us do a book? We work here? And she said, Patty, you have been with Jack before it was even an idea who deserves it more. And so, and she was bossy. She was younger than me. And so she convinced me. So I went into the conference room with Mark and Jack and said,
Speaker 1 (08:58):
This is Marcy.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
No, my sister came to work. Oh, your
Speaker 1 (09:01):
Sister, okay.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
Yeah. And, and she just gotten her degree in nursing. And so I said, while you’re studying for your state boards, help me read these stories, because there were stories coming in. And so I, I presented this thing, I wanna do this book, chicken Soup for The Surviving Soul. And I was so scared. And they said, okay. And I went, yeah, great. And so did that book, and then that led me into Chicken Soup for the Christian Soul. And I did, I did 14 books of my own out of the 250 that I managed over like an 18 year period.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
Wow. You guys did 250 ver iterations of that brand.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
We did 200. Wow. And that it, it was such a blessing. And they
Speaker 1 (09:45):
Were all just different verticals like that. Basically chicken soup for the teacher’s soul and for the brothers soul and whatever.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
Exactly. And, and the thing is, because we said in the back of the book, if you have a story, share it with us. And so people started writing stories and it sort of gave us, it was like foreshadowing. We knew what the market was looking for. We were getting a ton of pet lover stories. We were getting a lot of Christian stories. We were getting, you know, all kinds of different things. So at one point, I think my publishing schedule was five years out and Wow. I think the biggest year we did 18 books in one year. It’s, that’s insane.
Speaker 1 (10:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
So did, were, were all the books selling well, or was it just the, like, a few of ’em that were really the main drivers?
Speaker 2 (10:34):
I think the one that sold the least was probably Chicken Soup for The Surviving Soul. ’cause It was a very small market and that probably sold 500,000. Teen Soul sold 12 million
Speaker 1 (10:49):
Oh man.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
You know, Christian Soul, I sold a million the first quarter out the door. So out of everything we did about, maybe we did like 230 or 240 tiles, but when we sold the company in 2008, we had done, I wanna say, and we did a deal with the Chinese. So there was, so we’re up to 500 million copies sold with all the books collectively
Speaker 1 (11:19):
500 million copies across 240 ti 250 titles. Wow. And so they, and then they bought and they bought all of them. That was the deal was they basically, they said, we’re buying. Like, what, what did they exactly, they bought, they bought the rights for all those books.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
Well, we didn’t get in advance. He, we actually had to guarantee him that if we didn’t sell 20,000 copies of the first books, we’d pay him back. So, and then we worked out in advance, you know, so we could be off the road and writing books. We got a decent royalty, but we, we also owned all the rights. So we were able to do licensing. We did dog food, we did grading cards, we syndicated columns, calendars, journals. We did a lot of, we did a lot of work with pharmaceutical companies. We did co-branding with a lot of different brands that were launching new products. We
Speaker 1 (12:12):
That Did you sell all of that stuff? So basically, is that what became the business, was like all the books plus all the licensing deals of where you licensed the brand out?
Speaker 2 (12:21):
Yeah. So what what happened was we had all these co-authors. So if you think about it, I think I figured it out. I had 26,000 contributors.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
Wow. And
Speaker 2 (12:32):
Over 500 co-authors. And so the co-authors all got a nice royalty, but we owned the trademarks and all the rights at the end of the day. And so in 2008, when we sold it, it was about as good as the entire time that we, like, we, we kind of doubled our money in one day and we sold it and we sold it to a couple guys out of Connecticut.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
And, and so that, and then after that, as of that time, then it was just like, it was gone. You guys sold it, they took over the rights, all the licensing, all the people and everything. And then basically you guys were starting over, so to speak, like it was all you were out.
Speaker 2 (13:13):
Yeah, it was weird.
Speaker 1 (13:15):
Wow. Like
Speaker 2 (13:16):
How many employees? Chicken soup people. And one day you’re not
Speaker 1 (13:20):
And what, how many people were there?
Speaker 2 (13:22):
W we had, so we had two companies. So Mark had a company, and then Jack and I had a company, and then we had a shell company that kind of held all the assets. So on Mark’s end, they were in charge of licensing and legal. And on my end it was marketing and production and specialty deals. So we kind of, and Mark’s Mark was married to a gal named Patty at the time. So it was basically the four of us kind of running it. And then I had about 15 employees. And Mark Mark’s company, they only had a couple employees that actually worked with chicken. My entire team was on, I mean, from permissions to editorial, to creating marketing plans, getting things ready, and things like that. So
Speaker 1 (14:12):
When you were launching these books, like what worked really well? Like you, you, I mean, you launched 250 books, 18 in one year. Did, did, did you think that, was it really about the launch and it was like, oh, if we, if we set it, if we do a big launch that sets the trajectory? Or was it more of just, we kind of do the same thing for everything. We put it out there and some of them catch flight and some of them don’t?
Speaker 2 (14:37):
No. We did a launch for everything. And we, we did things like Chicken Soup and NASCAR Lovers Soul, and we worked with head NASCAR headquarters. When we did the Pet Lover book, we worked with Marty Becker, who was on Good Morning America as their expert veterinarian. We did a deal with Petco, they got the books for the first two weeks before I went to bookstores. And that was 500,000 copies. We did Chicken Soup for the Traveler Soul and had a giant rig go from New York to LA with a giant chicken on the side with the backpack and stopped in all these small little places. So every single title had a very specific marketing plan
Speaker 1 (15:19):
And like a marketing partner
Speaker 2 (15:22):
Most of the time. Yeah. Some were just authors that were great authors and they already had platforms like Marcy Moff, Lisa Nichols different people. They had a, a decent following. So over time you start to look at, okay, your perfect author has a platform. They know how to speak, they know how to edit. And you know, once you get it going to a certain level, you have all these people out there promoting this massive brand. And so it just, and, and the publisher put a lot of money into placement. I mean, if any bookstore that you went into in those days, we had a whole wall. I mean, those are not cheap.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
Oh, so the publisher was buying store placement? Oh yeah. Was it the same publisher the whole time? That’s that like local publisher?
Speaker 2 (16:06):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
Wow. So they like went all in on you. They’re buying printing presses. They’re pushing it to the front of store. Mm-Hmm.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
Right.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
Wow. Yeah. That’s expensive stuff.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
I know. And he has a very nice jet these days.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
Yeah. It paid off for it paid off for him.
Speaker 2 (16:26):
Yeah. He was, he was really, he, he is a big horse race guy and he loves to bet on things. And he, he just, he kind of bet the farm
Speaker 1 (16:35):
And picked the jockey, not the horse man. He, he got it. So that’s, that’s amazing. What a cool, I didn’t know that. I didn’t, I didn’t realize that. I didn’t know that you guys were doing, you know, paid promotion and all that kind of stuff. I mean, you, you know, a lot of people don’t realize you just buy that space like in the airport or whatever, like Right. But it’s expensive and, and competitive. It’s expensive.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
That’s why it’s really hard to get a book published with a New York publisher because they, they have a lot of, they have upfront costs, you know, and the thing with us that we were so lucky about was we thought, oh, we, we really wanted a bigger publisher. And we met with other publishers over the years, but nobody could pump out 500,000 books a week. But he could, because he owned the printing presses. He owned the editorial, he owned the art department, he owned the distribution. So it was a one side, it was like a little mini Amazon before Amazon.
Speaker 1 (17:29):
Wow. And so how, when you, when you would launch, I mean, you, like you said, 500,000 for Petco. That’s insane. So you, I mean, that was down the road though. That was after you had established the brand, the books were selling and then people are going, Hey, we wanna do, we want to do, you know, chicken soup for the whatever, soul. And then, so we were these licensing deals and these kind of part promotional partners, were they basically just coming to you at some point once or were you always prospecting them?
Speaker 2 (17:55):
Yes. Always.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
How, how, how did you do that?
Speaker 2 (17:59):
Well, the first time we did anything at all for licensing, we did a book called Chicken Soup for the Golfer Soul. And so we went to the P G A show and my husband owns a golf company. And so one of the companies came and said, Hey, we want 300,000 books. We’re launching this new driver to go up against the Callaway Big Bertha driver. So I went to my publisher and he said, no, we can’t do it. There’s laws, you know, pricing laws and so forth. And so my husband said, well, why don’t you just create like a little tiny book and just wrap it around the head of the golf club and charge the three books and sell ’em how many units they want. And I was like, that’s like a lot for a little tiny booklet. He is like, yeah, but if you do that at the same time, the book’s coming out, it’ll spread the word that way.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
They’ll, he, he said, you guys are like the Callaway of golf, you know, as Chicken Soup. That was our first deal. And it was great ’cause it was upfront money. And so we, we thought, well, that worked for golf, who else could we do it with? And then we, we got a gal that was really in with brand managers and pharma and said, well, we we’re doing a book called Chicken Soup for the Unsinkable Soul. You know, is there a brand that could use us to help launch? And they said, well, we’re doing this new drug, Paxil for depression. If you could put together a few stories on people overcoming depression, we could launch that with it. So when you go to the doc, so we did, zoo would sell a million units to a pharmaceutical. They would then give ’em to the reps, the reps would take them out with the new drug.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
They would give ’em to the doctors, the doctors would prescribe. And then they would say, by the way, here’s a message from the chicken soup people. So we were sort of that warm and fuzzy side of the drug world, which really covered the overhead because when you’re, when you’re writing books, you don’t get a whole lot of money as a royalty. You know, we were only making a dollar or 25 a book or whatever it was. And when you’re splitting that with other authors and you have overhead, you’ve gotta figure out creative ways to pay your overhead. And so that was the beginning. And then we thought, well, what if we got a licensing agent? And so we started licensing greeting cards and cups and mugs. And, and then she came to us and she said, okay, chicken soup for the dog, love soul dog food. And I’m like, this is really pushing it. But it was the biggest licensing deal we did. It was crazy
Speaker 1 (20:22):
Really that, I mean, I used to believe that. I mean, pet lovers are, I mean, people, they’re crazy pets are, they’re, yeah. I mean, they’re family members. Like it’s a, it’s, they’re,
Speaker 2 (20:30):
They’re uhhuh
Speaker 1 (20:31):
Speaker 2 (20:45):
Went to an agency. Yeah, we went to an agency in New York and got a licensing agent. And, but when we did specialty deals with farmers and stuff, I had two people in house. So that’s all they did were send out proposals all day long every day. And we would mock up stuff like, this is what we’re thinking, this is what it would look like. We did all, we did the research, we knew what they were doing. So we always went out with, Hey, we know you’re working on this. We think we have a way to help support you. So it wasn’t, Hey, we need you. It was more like they kind of really needed us. It was still a hard sell. We probably did a hundred of those over the years, but probably sent out thousands, you know, to get the hundred that we did.
Speaker 1 (21:24):
And you’re just basically going pick a company, you basically like pick a company or, or you pick a market and then you find a company that serves that market. And then you go, what are the goals of this company? And how could we pitch this or present the idea of a book specific to that market in a way that they could use it to help them achieve whatever their other goal was.
Speaker 2 (21:48):
Exactly. Like, for example
Speaker 1 (21:50):
That’s so brilliant and simple, but so brilliant.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
It was Mr. Toad’s Wild Ride. I’m telling you. It was a crazy like
Speaker 1 (22:51):
Uhhuh
Speaker 2 (23:36):
Pretty much. I mean, it was a little bit harder, you know, mostly like boots on the ground. Who do we know? You know, we reached out to people that we knew. At the time it was February, Sue Mancini that was running Parker Chiropractic. Kathy Cooper was a friend, and I just made her, you know, made a call and sent her a mock up of what I thought it could look like. And, and so we always gave them everything we possibly could mocked up how it would work, what it would look like. The biggest thing was, you know, in the book business, you get returns when you do a specialty deal, it’s a one-time sale. So it was bulk buys of a hundred thousand or a million or whatever it was. So there was no risk, which made it a lot better.
Speaker 1 (24:20):
Right. Well, and because they’re u they’re using it as a marketing tool. It’s, it’s not like, it’s not like selling to a bookstore who’s gonna try to resell the book. They’re packaging it. Like when you, when when you said the pharma one, you basically, you were saying that the, the reps would give them basically piles of them to each doctor so that every time the doctor prescribed the medicine, they also gave them a book.
Speaker 2 (24:45):
Exactly. Or a sample of the book. But the sample would be like a 16 or a 32 page. And because that, that way you could have a, you know, you weren’t carrying cases of books. And it also was at the exact same time we were launching something in the bookstore.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
Right. So,
Speaker 2 (25:02):
So, and, and there were some that were just specialty, that were just never, that never went to bookstores. But we always look for where is there money and distribution that we don’t have, and where can we show up outside of a bookstore? Because only 3% of the population ever went into a bookstore in those decades,
Speaker 1 (25:22):
Even back then, which was the peak, the peak bookstore time. Yeah. Yeah. So, so that’s a really powerful question. Where is there money and distribution that we don’t have? Basically where is there a huge network of people that you just kinda like are tying in, tying into and riding that sort of, riding that wave or working in that circle?
Speaker 2 (25:44):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
Patty, that’s amazing. What, what a powerful story. So, so then so you sold the company and then you started the training company, then it was Canfield Training Group after that? Or were they kind of running like simultaneous?
Speaker 2 (26:00):
They were, we, we, we would do one big training a year. ’cause Jack loves to do really in, you know, deep workshops, more like, just a lot. It’s a lot of personal work. And so we did that every summer during chicken soup, but we weren’t on the road as much because we were so busy editing and compiling books. And before chicken, we had a company called Self-Esteem Seminars. And so that’s still today our original company and we have a D B A of, you know, the Canfield Group and Jet Camfield companies. So when we sold, we kind of sat around and felt really weird. I was really happy. I’m like, I am good to go. They don’t, I’m done. I’m, you know, they, it’s like they don’t care what I think I didn’t have. And that was the big thing for me. I didn’t wanna have to come onto another organization and be responsible for three years or whatever it was.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
So we didn’t do that. And and I said, well, you know, we, we published the Success principles in 2005, so this is two, 2008. I said, why don’t we circle back and start training people how to do what we did and using the success principles. And all of those principles were used throughout our time of setting goals and creating affirmations and, you know, writing down steps that you have to do and visualizing it and sharing your vision and all the stuff. And, and we had more clout by that time. So we did kind of a year long road trip to about 10 cities and did one day events. And we, we just, we just called it Train the Trainer if you wanna become a trainer of the success principals. And we had a huge teacher market, so they were kind of our ideal avatar because they already knew sort of how to speak.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
And then it morphed from that into an online certification when certifications really weren’t happening yet. And so we decided to do that so we could get to more people. So for less than the price of travel, you can get certified online. And so that was a two year process. We did that. And now we, you know, we, we mostly cater to authors, speakers, coaches and teach them interactive exercises that they can bring into the things that they do. How do you make your talk more engaging? We do a lot of author stuff. I just came off a two day author retreat. I do those about eight times a year. Mm-Hmm.
Speaker 1 (28:35):
18, which was an, which was an event, an event that you guys hosted that was specific for authors.
Speaker 2 (28:41):
We worked, we do it with Steve Harrison. Do you know who Steve and Bill Harrison are?
Speaker 1 (28:47):
That sounds familiar to me. They,
Speaker 2 (28:48):
They used to own a company called Radio Television Interview Report, r t I r. Okay. And we would place ads with them for all of the books to get radio shows and TV shows. And so they cater to authors a lot and helping them get their books done and published. So we do about eight a year. It’s me and Jack and Steve, and we did like two, this two we had, I wanna say 18 authors total. So it’s like a, it’s like a mastermind. Mm-Hmm. And we did, we do ’em via Zoom, and we just talk about, okay, here’s your book. This is what you should fix. This is a way that you could market it. Think about doing this. And
Speaker 1 (29:25):
Yeah, I mean the, I have to say, this is probably the, just the most creative marketing strategy book marketing strategy conversation that I’ve ever heard. Really. I mean I mean, it’s really powerful and, and simple. And, and so then and so then, and then that led you to write permission granted. So you had written 14 Chicken Soup books or been a part of 14 yourself, and then you released permission Granted. So you’re still at the, you’re still president of Canfield, you guys are still doing all that stuff, but then you released your own book here recently as well?
Speaker 2 (30:02):
I did. I released Permission, granted, I wanna say probably right before the Pandemic in 2019, it was a compilation. People like a and Janet Atwood and Marcy Shimoff and Lisa Nichols, and then other people, it’s only like 15 authors. And I just said, just gimme your best story of when you finally decided to give yourself permission to show up and just go for the dream. Like just say it out loud. And, because I feel like so many people, they, they wanna write a book or they wanna do something different, or they wanna put their job, or they wanna say, I don’t wanna be married anymore. Or they wanna ask for a raise. I mean, whatever it is, it’s, it’s, at least in my life, it was hard for me to speak up. And I’m a pretty bossy kind of gal. But I was a professional hider, so nobody knew that I was running the company.
Speaker 2 (30:56):
No. People would call me to speak Rory, and I would turn it down. Oh, we have 7,000 women in the stadium. Can you come and speak about your book? Oh, no, I’m too busy running Chicken Soup for the Soul and the President. And because I didn’t know how to do it, and I thought you had to memorize everything. And I didn’t know there was a formula. So once I figured out, wait, there’s some method to this madness, I, and by doing the online training, I kind of figured it out and I’m like, there’s a methodology here. There’s certain key ingredients that you need to use. And so I just thought, I’m, I’m gonna do it. And I kept waiting for Jack to say, Hey, you should, you know, come on stage more and you should. And he never did. And I literally told myself that he must think that I’m terrible or he would’ve asked me. And the real story was like, well, I didn’t know you wanted to do it. He’s like, I’m not a mind reader. So that sort of set me off on this journey of, of giving other women permission to really mm-hmm.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
I love it. Well, I mean, we’ll link up to permission granted in the, in the show notes and everything. Yeah, I mean, what a story Patty is, is where do you want people to go to, to, to learn about that about you or what you’re up to and what you’re working on right now?
Speaker 2 (32:12):
They can go to my website, it’s patty aubrey.com and that’s a U b e r y. Everyone spells it r e y, but it’s a U B E R Y. And I do women’s retreats. I do a lot of coaching for people that need to learn how to share their message more. And just some other fun things and a lot of stuff with Jack as well. So we run a lot of high-end luxury stuff, fun things around the world
Speaker 1 (32:39):
That’s really, really, really cool.
Speaker 2 (32:41):
Can we do some in Nashville? So we’ll have to invite you next.
Speaker 1 (32:44):
I mean, yeah, let me know. I mean, it’s, it’s, it’s in the neck of the woods. I at least gotta come over and say hi. Like I would love to know this. This is such a great story and I mean, this is amazing. 500 million people that you guys reached with just that and every, and that was all the way back in 2008. So everything that you guys have done since then is just really, really inspiring. I mean, if, if there’s somebody out there listening right now who, you know, has that dream and they go, wow, you know, and think back to where you were, where you couldn’t get the publishing deal and before you sold 500 million copies and 250 books and all that. But like at some point there must’ve been a moment where you guys were just starting out where you’re like, what are we even doing? Like what, how, how are we gonna, how are we gonna pull all this off? Like, what would you tell that person right now?
Speaker 2 (33:35):
I would say make a plan. Share your vision with everyone. I mean, the reality is, the publisher that finally said yes to us after 144 said no, was the only person we knew at Book Expo. And we said, Hey, could we just park our backpacks here while we go hand out manuscripts? Because our agent gave us the book back and said, sorry, I can’t sell it. And at the end of the weekend, we still got more nos. And then Peter
Speaker 2 (34:21):
Mm-Hmm. Amen. And think we have to go someplace else. So tell everyone, you know what you do, share your message, get it down. Well go hang out with Rory, got brand builders. It’s amazing. I’ve checked it out and, and just don’t give up. I mean, it takes time. And I, I do believe that Chicken soup sort of put a spin on the book world that you can just go out and have these bestsellers. And the reality is, I tell all of my clients books are like babies. You don’t birth them and leave them in the alley to raise themselves. Mm-Hmm. You have to raise them and spin off products and think of trainings and how can you coach people and what, you know, your book is like the hub of a wheel and every spoke is an next opportunity to take that to a new level.
Speaker 1 (35:11):
Yeah. Well, you guys certainly did that. And I think I can call, I’m gonna title this from Incense, burning Hippies to the Billion Dollar
Ep 402: How To Be Well Paid as a Coach with Mitch Matthews
AJV (00:00:02):
Hey everybody, and welcome to another episode on the influential personal brand, AJ Vaden, one of your hosts today. And y’all, you are in for a treat today. I got to start my day with one of the very first emails in my inbox. Was an email from Mitch. And here’s how I knew this was going to be a really great interview, is he felt prompted to go, I don’t know why. And you can totally pretend like I never sent this email
MM (00:01:15):
Come on over.
AJV (00:01:19):
Emos happiness and joy. So y’all we’re gonna have a really good time. Now you probably are wondering what was this person? But he talked, who a
MM (00:01:26):
Heck is it? Yeah,
AJV (00:01:28):
So lemme introduce you guys to our guest on the influential Personal Brand podcast today. Please meet my friend Mitch Matthews. Now let me give you a very quick formal overview of who he is, what he’s done, but then also I wanna tell you why you wanna stick around. So Mitch Matthews is a successful entrepreneur. He’s a coach. He’s also a fellow podcaster, which, you know, I love. He’s also had lots of mutual friends on his podcast, including my awesome husband Roy, and some of our very good friends, Jamie Kern, Lima, and Louis Howell. So we’re already in really good companies. I love that. But here’s what I love most is that you guys know that we call our audience at Brain Builders Group mission-driven messengers. And what I love is that Mitch says he’s on a mission to encourage the encouragers, and he is out there to help coach, mentor, and inspire coaches, speakers, and content creators to be well paid. So now you know why I invited Mitch to be on the show today. So, Mitch, welcome.
MM (00:02:35):
Oh, thank you so much. It is such an honor, and I, I like you, I just couldn’t wait to get till this to this interview. So I’m, I’m really excited to be here.
AJV (00:02:43):
Well, I’m so excited because, you know, we serve this mission-driven messenger, the coach speaker, yeah. Content creative content creator, author, but also I love what you said, I wanna help them be well paid. Yeah. And I think that’s such an important part of this conversation because here’s what I know about many people in our audience is they, they feel like they’re on a message, like they’re on a mission, right? Yep. They have a message that, you know, it’s instilled in them and they’re like, man, I just gotta get this out into the world. But turning that mission into revenue sometimes takes longer than expect it’s time. Absolutely. There’s a disconnect sometimes. And so, first things first, I wanna tell our audience why they need to stick around is cuz one, we’re gonna talk about how do you get well paid, right? Doing what you love as a byproduct of doing good work and serving other people.
AJV (00:03:34):
But at the end of the day, it’s how do you become well paid for what you do because you do it so well. Right? also, y’all, I think this is really important. And again, re regardless of your personal beliefs whether you’re religious or you’re spiritual or none of those things, I would just encourage you to stick around and just listen to this part of it. Of, it doesn’t matter if you have a religious affiliation or what your spiritual standing is or if you’re totally undecided. This is going to give you some insight and some inclination on why. For some of us that feel really directly called, like for me, I’ll just use myself example, fond know Mitch, he’s gonna share his story. It’s like I got the privilege of experiencing God and miracles at a really young age. And so I’ve been really convicted not because of my parents, not because of people around me, because of my own personal experiences, but I also know not everyone has had those.
AJV (00:04:33):
But for when you get to encounter someone who has, I think there’s just a really important aspect and conversation that you can. So just take some takeaways of going, man, I’ve never heard it that way. I’ve never heard it described that way. I’ve never heard a conversation like before. So I would just encourage you to stick around for that. And then last but not least, we’re gonna talk about the coaching industry. And just what’s happening, what’s coming and what do you, what’s going on need to be prepared for. So those are all the reasons why you need to stick around. So, you know, we might be here for three hours. I
MM (00:05:06):
Was gonna say bar. I hope you packed a lunch. People. Let’s be do
AJV (00:05:09):
That. It’s gonna be great. It’s gonna be action packed. Lot of energy. Ok. So what all of that said to help our audience get to know you a little bit, Mitch, can you just like, you’ve been in the coaching industry, you’ve been coaching for two decades. Two
MM (00:05:21):
Decades. I started when I was 12. I started right outta elementary school.
AJV (00:05:26):
But also, I know because I’ve also been in this industry for 15 years, right? That 20 years ago, it wasn’t cool to be a coach, right? It
MM (00:05:35):
Wasn’t cool to be a coach. Nobody knew it wasn’t cool. Nobody knew it was to be a coach. My uncle said, what is a coach? And who’s gonna pay you to work with them? It’s crazy. You know, all the, everybody’s got that grumpy uncle, all of that, right? And like Twitter didn’t exist, Facebook didn’t exist, all those things, right? It was a different world. But absolutely my, the quick story was back then I was in the pharmaceutical industry, and when I first got into the industry, it was a great fit. It was a, a technical cell, it was a relationship cell, and I had a lot of success there. And then I got into training, which was awesome. And then I got promoted into a bad fit job, which I am grateful for looking back on it. I am so grateful because that woke me up because the pharmaceutical industry was good, but it was not where I was supposed to live my life.
MM (00:06:27):
And that last bad fit job was a wake up call to say, Hey, this ain’t it. And if I hadn’t had it, I probably would’ve lost two decades there doing something I was good at, but not what I was meant and designed to do. Hmm. And so that woke me up. I actually really had some dark nights of the soul. Like, what am I supposed to do? I thought I was on the right track, obviously not big time. And I came home one night, really kind of downtrodden, brokenhearted, all of those things. And my wife puts a magazine in front of me. It was a business week magazine, and it was a story of an entrepreneur. And I’m like, okay. And she’s like, no, no, no, not the main story. Look at this sidebar story. It’s a story about his coach. And kind of like you were just saying back then, I was like, what is that?
MM (00:07:14):
And she goes, I don’t know what it is, but that’s what you do. Right? Because that’s kind of what I did. That’s what I did with our friends. That’s what I did at church. Like, I would sit down with people, I’d be that safe place, I’d be that sounding board, I’d listen and I’d ask questions. She goes, you’re just not getting paid for it. But that’s what you do. Figure out how to do that. And so I found a really expensive training program that wound up having no business training at all. And I became a more confident coach, but I had no idea how to actually build a business, start a business, that kind of stuff. So I started it on the side, kind of figured it out on the side of this bad fit job. And you know, I’m wildly grateful to say that I thought it was gonna take five years, but once things really started to click, and honestly, even some of the things you were just talking about as far as I, I kind of prayed into it really leaned into it, those kinds of things. I thought I was gonna be five years, but I was able to quit that bad fit job in five months and completely replace my income and not look back. So now, like you said, I’m a coach, a speaker, I say I’m a con or I’m a coach, developer and a podcaster.
AJV (00:08:21):
Mm. I love that. And yeah, I mean, what I think it’s really good. It’s like, you know, everyone talks about like how to make your side hustle, your main hustle, right? Right. That side thing, your main thing. Right? And here’s, here’s one of the questions I have because I think a lot of people, a lot of people at least in our circle, have somewhat of a similar kinda story. It’s like, man, it’s like, how could you just get paid for doing this thing that I love to do? What the heck, heck, I’m good at doing. People come to me for if I could just do this, it’s like my full-time living, like life would be so good. And then they,
MM (00:08:55):
I have it all figured out, right? Like, yeah, the birds would land on my finger and sing to me. Yeah.
AJV (00:09:01):
But then they start doing it and they’re like, oh, wait this is a lot of work. This is a thing. I’m not getting paid as much as I thought. So here’s my question for the audience.
MM (00:09:11):
Yes.
AJV (00:09:12):
How do you know if you will be a good coach?
MM (00:09:15):
Yeah, absolutely. So I love that conversation because it’s so, so important. And one of the things, you know, you’ve touched on it, and I, I gotta say I tip my hat to you and Rory, you guys are juggernauts in our industry. I, I like, I’m not blowing smoke. I, I just really mean it, you guys, the value you guys put out there I think you guys exemplify the very things that we’re talking about. So I just, I just want to say that as we’re moving into this for real I mean, I ha I remember having Rory on the show and it was years ago. And I’m like, good lord, this guy just like, just so full of energy, but also great content, all that stuff. So I’ve loved you guys for a long, long time. So kind. So all that to be said.
MM (00:10:00):
So I think if you’re interested in becoming a coach, interested in becoming a speaker, I always say it’s gotta start from a foundation of mission. That’s actually what we talk about too. Like, talk about that. You’ve gotta have a heart for actually seeing people thrive. It’s gotta start there because I, and I, you know, I’m lucky enough, we’ve, we’ve had a coaching training program for years. We’ve been able to help thousands of coaches. And I’m always pretty open about it that if you get into coaching, just because of the economic opportunity, which there’s a lot, like, I now look back on that safe pharmaceutical job, and I’ve made as much in a month as I used to make in a year or more, right? So there is money to be made here, but if you only get into it for that, or even if that’s your primary reason, you’re not gonna be able to sustain it.
MM (00:10:50):
Because there are gonna be seasons that are hard. There are gonna be seasons. I think by God’s good design, there are gonna be seasons where the money either isn’t gonna be there or it’s gonna be lighter than you thought. Those kinds of things. And that’s when you have to double down and say, well, I am doing this for all the right reasons, it’s gonna work out, right? Mm-Hmm.
MM (00:11:33):
I tell this story like I, my heart hurts for the grays because that’s what I was becoming in the pharmaceutical industry. I was becoming a gray. And I was reminded of this just recently at a keynote at a, it’s a Fortune 100 company. They had me come in, you’ve had this experience where they had me come in for a conference at their headquarters. They had me sit in the lobby for just a few minutes while I was waiting for my person to come pick me up. And I’m watching people go in and out, in and out, and I’d say 70% of them were gray. Hmm. Like wildly talented, obviously sporty dressers, you know, making bank, but their eyes just weren’t alive. Right? And my heart hurts. I just wanna grab those people and say, what are you supposed to be doing? You know, like, so I always say, I never want that flame to go out.
MM (00:12:19):
I, I do believe that that flame is put there in me by God. Like I think that’s a part of my God-given gifts is to have that, that fire, that burns for that person to say, Hey, I was put here to help people figure out why they were put here, and I’m just supposed to stoke that flight. So that’s, that’s big a part. Being a part of what’s gotta be at the foundation. At the same time, a very close second has to be a commitment to learning the basic business skills and a commitment to bring excellence, right? You might have either a god-given gift or you might have a true passion to help people. But if you’re not also committed to learning some of the basic business skills that you need to learn and to deliver excellence where you can, doesn’t have to be everywhere.
MM (00:13:04):
And you don’t have to serve everyone, but you have to be committed to delivering some excellence. I mean, you guys, we were talking about this bit before we hit record. Like, you, you guys bring so much excellence, like everywhere you look, when you look at the vains, excellence, excellence, excellence, I know you don’t try to do it everywhere. You don’t have to be everywhere, but you bring excellence. And I think that’s one of the best things that we do. We have to commit to that. That also means we don’t have to commit to everything. And it also means you don’t have to be great at everything. We just have to be committed to bringing excellence. And where we can’t bring excellence, you know, to certain areas. It’s like I’m committed to learning how to bring excellence. Those are some of those core things. Now we can go a lot deeper, but those are some of those core things that I, if I see a natural gifting and a true passion for helping people with a willingness to learn the business basics and commit to bringing excellence, that person can be successful.
AJV (00:13:58):
Mm-Hmm. I think that’s really insightful. And I’m on a double down on two things really quick. Because I know that, you know, for us, for example, it’s like we eventually do things excellent
MM (00:14:16):
Oh, it gonna be messy to start with. Right. And
AJV (00:14:18):
I think that’s the key. It’s eventually, it’s eventually because hundred percent, the truth is we do it wrong a lot at first. Yeah. And you said something about, you know, committed to excellence, which means you gotta be committed to get through the sludge. Oh yeah. And not give up. And so I think
MM (00:14:38):
That’s a really big deal. That’s a really big deal. Especially me, Mitch Matthews. I am a recovering perfectionist, right? So that perfectionism takes out more people that should be coaches, coaches and speakers than just about anything. Because that perfectionism, it’s to your point, they’re like, well, I should have a kick website from day one
AJV (00:15:21):
Yeah. I think that, and that’s, that’s the key. It’s, it’s the learning part. Right? Right. It’s you know, I think’s so funny because I’ve been reading this book, the Circle Maker. So if anyone is ever is anyone who’s like, come on, you have never read it. It is one of the best books. I’m like, li like, it looks like a workbook. Like every single
MM (00:15:42):
Is amazing.
AJV (00:15:43):
It’s so good.
MM (00:15:44):
Get it on Audible too. Cuz Mark Patterson has such a great voice and he reads, it was like, I’m sitting here with Mark and he’s reading
AJV (00:15:50):
Book. Oh good. It’s so good. It’s so good. And one of the things that I read, and I was just reading on this and I shared this with you earlier, it’s like my favorite, my favorite quote right now is pray. Like it depends on God, but work, like it depends on you. Yeah. And, and then that was the second thing that I kind of wanted to talk about is like, learn the business basics. Yeah. Right. You have to learn basic business skills. And just because you want to be in business for yourself doesn’t mean that it’s going to be easy and nor doesn’t mean you should. Right. Right. Being in business for yourself is a lot of hard work. So, and your opinion Right. Helping people through this Yep. For a lot of years. Yep. What would you say are the non-negotiables? You must learn this. Yeah. In terms of business skills, if you’re gonna make it.
MM (00:16:35):
I love it. I love it. Oh my gosh, yes. So boy, I am so glad this is gonna be four hours, so let, let’s just get into it. Right? Like, that’s great. So a number of things like, I mean, I, I know you guys in your countless episodes have gone after important subjects, like getting clear on your ideal client and we could talk about those kinds of things is so powerful, so important. There’s really good ways to do it, really bad ways to do it, all of that. But I think for us, like, like you had mentioned, I have a heart for encouragers. And I really do want encouragers, especially those encouragers to who decide to be coaches, speakers, and content creators. I want them to be well paid. Because if they’re well paid, that means they can do it. They can be a blessing to their community, a blessing to their family, and have more impact, right?
MM (00:17:22):
So that’s great. So money comes up a lot now as I, as we’ve been talking about, faith is an important thing for you guys. It’s a wildly important thing for me. And so this is something that I wrestled with because I do feel like a lot of my core foundational gifting of encouragement, of listening, of being, you know, excited, all of those things, right? I believe that’s a gift from God. So when it came to coaching I bumped up against something that a lot of people experienced that, oh crap, how do I charge for something I’ve kind of done my whole life? Like I was called, I was called the pastor in my all men’s dorm in college, not because of my holy living
MM (00:18:23):
Like, and it wasn’t always faith-based, sometimes that came up, but most of the time I was listening, I would give them feedback, I would encourage them, I would be a sounding board, all of that right? In, in my career, I got into training and, and really coaching became a core part of what I did as I was building up salespeople in the pharmaceutical industry. Mm-Hmm.
MM (00:19:06):
Right? And I can tell, I can pinpoint different things that happened to me that before the event, the world was this way after the event, the world was this, this way, you know, before this relationship started, my world was this way, you know, after that relationship, boom, my world, you know, expanded all those things. But I think one of my biggest breakthroughs was when I realized that the money that we charge as coaches is more for our client than it is for us. Hmm. That’s good. Okay. And I tell my clients this, it’s so funny. I have a A C E O that I’m working with right now. Big Jesus guy loves Jesus, all that stuff. But he said, your, and he didn’t use this language, but he was like, you are mother fluke and expensive. And I’m like, I know, right?
MM (00:19:56):
And I said, well, thank you right Now, here’s the deal. He knew I was expensive because when we started to talk about the POS possibilities of working together, and we talked about my rates, he was like, holy crap, that’s expensive. And I said, I know, but that’s for you. And he goes, what do you mean? And I said, brother, if I send you this invoice and you decide it’s time to go, like if you pay this invoice, and I charge all upfront, that’s what I do for my coaching all upfront. And it’s again, for them, I say, this is the biggest indicator that you are all in. Mm-Hmm.
MM (00:20:48):
I wanna make sure they’re gonna be a good fit. It’s as much for me, it’s probably the complimentary call is more for me than it is for them. And I tell ’em that, but I always say, Hey, listen, if we make it through that comp call, I will know why this is or isn’t important enough for you. Like right now why this matters. Right? And I said to him, I said, listen, you know, you have been thinking about doing what we’re, what we talked about in the complimentary call for years. And you’ve read books, you’ve gone to a couple of retreats. Those are great, right? But when you make this investment, that is the ultimate sign to you, God and the universe, this is different. And I tell people all the time, I’m like, it might be the most expensive thing you’ve ever put pen to paper for other than your house or your car.
MM (00:21:37):
But when you do that, I want you to have a big goofy grin on your face. And they sometimes will, you know, it’s, we’re on Zoom now. They’re like, what are you talking about? I’m like, you can have the biggest goofiest grid on your face because you can know it is go time. Mm-Hmm.
MM (00:22:21):
And so there’s a lot of different aspects to deciding on your rates. There’s a lot of different aspects to deciding how to put packages together, all of those things. But at the core of it, you have to realize, yes, them paying you and paying you well, pays for a roof, pays for food on the table, all of that stuff. My, we have two boys, they like to eat. I like a roof. I like air conditioning. I’m a big fan. So I recognize that money does come for me. But for the most part, that investment is for them. And I, I have a friend that a very successful coach and even more expensive than me. And she goes, it’s amazing. Every time I raise my rates, I get to become a better coach because the people are more committed, they’re more all in all of that. And it’s like, yep. Isn’t that the craziest thing? So I know that’s one of those aspects, but when that switch flipped in my head, all of a sudden, a lot of things change to my business.
AJV (00:23:17):
You know? But I mean, here’s the thing that, you know, I just as you were talking that it correlates, it’s like the more money that your clients pay you, the more one bought in they’re in. But two, like that is a form of accountability, right? A hundred percent. If I spend $2,500 on a coaching program, it’s easy for me to, not that that’s not a lot of money. It is. Right. But it’s easier for me to go, I, I have got all this work stuff I gotta do versus if I really busy
MM (00:23:45):
20,
AJV (00:23:45):
But if I spent 25,000, I’m going here. No. I need to get my ROI outta that. I gotta That’s
MM (00:23:52):
Exactly right. I’m gonna So that up with a biscuit, right? They are not gonna miss a drop. That’s exactly right. And that’s, that’s what I love about this. And this also, we could speak to this a little bit, but this also speaks to the reason you want to have packages. Mm-Hmm.
MM (00:24:44):
I see coaches out there floundering, saying, well, I’ll coach you for a couple of sessions, or we’ll get started for a month. And like I said, people have less skin in the game and you can’t do your best work because, you know, I know for me, my podcast is called Dream Think Do, which I hope is catchy, but it’s also a description of how I work with people. And it, like in a three month period, we have spent about a month dreaming, getting clear on the vision of what they want to do. We do a month of thinking, which means planning and logistics, and actually drawing up, like how can we get that done? And then we have a month of doing, if it was a three month package, that’s how it would break down. And it, I need that time to get the full effect. And honestly, you know, somebody will come to me and say, well, can I, can I just buy a month of that? It’s like, no, I don’t want you to start this process without knowing how to finish it. Yeah. I would do you a disservice by only delivering a chunk of what we do. So wait until you can afford the whole thing. Because I don’t want you to get started and not finish.
AJV (00:25:46):
Okay. So super tactically speaking here just for a second, because I think there’s lot of really, really good nuggets for everyone who’s listen one well, the more you price, right, you’re going to price yourself out. Right. Which is really important as a coach because of supply and demand issues, right? Right, right, right. Yep. Less supply. Right. It means you gotta charge more, right? Right. And so I think there’s a lot of that. So as you’re talking about this, so it’s like, let’s say that somebody is listening until they, today they’re stepping into this going, all right, I’m gonna go all in. Right? I, yeah, I’ve been tip toing around this. I’ve been, it’s a side hustle. I’m going all in. How would you say, like, where would somebody start to go, this is what I’m gonna charge.
MM (00:26:30):
Yep. So
MM (00:27:23):
So you’re gonna probably price a little bit lower because of that, right? But I always say commit to the price. You can say without your voice cracking
MM (00:28:15):
Like, it was so weird to say, well, I charged $2,000 for this. So I knew I couldn’t say 2000. Like I, I, there are people now that go through our programs and they’re like, I charged $7,500 right out. And I love that, right? Because they’re like, that’s what you charge, or, you know, that’s what you said, or you gave this example package, why wouldn’t I use that? I can say that without my voice cracking. Go for it. I couldn’t, I just wasn’t that confident. I didn’t know, you know, all that stuff. Mm-Hmm.
MM (00:29:09):
But the biggest thing is get started. So start at a level where your voice doesn’t crack and then commit to double it at least a few times. I know. That’s what I did. Basically. I, I did two at $970, I did two at $2,000 and then I kept doubling it until I got to $5,000 and then I held there for a while, which was great, right? Mm-Hmm.
MM (00:29:56):
You know, make it kind of, we always say we want your ideal client to see themselves in your packages. So that conversation shouldn’t feel like a sales call. It should feel like they’re looking in a mirror. Like, I want that, how did you know? I want that. That’s freaking amazing, right? So it’s like, there’s, there’s tactics to that as well. But I would just say, Hey, at least get started. And it seems like again, if you could go with a price where your voice doesn’t crack and then commit to double it a few times, that allows people to get started, get momentum and get to the price point they want by actually doing it as opposed to worrying about it.
AJV (00:30:33):
Yeah. I love that. And just so much of that does come down to confidence, belief in yourself, right? Yeah. Now you’ve mentioned these packages, which I think is a really important second part of what I wanna go into tactically. Yeah. cuz you talked about pricing upfront and packages. Yep. Right? Yep. So yep. Walk, walk the listeners through. What are you talking about when you say packages?
MM (00:30:53):
Yes. So I love it. So packages basically. So there’s a lot of smart people that have done research on this kind of thing, and people love choices, right? It, it’s interesting, poi choice actually gives us the illusion of control. Okay? So when we have a choice, when we walk into Starbucks and there’s 47 different ways to get a cup of coffee, there’s a deep part of our hearts that go, yes, I am in control. Give me a skinny flo, you know, Floy, mac, ccino nut, whatever, right? Like, and I have control over my domain. Yes. Right? Now when it comes to higher ticket stuff, as you know, basically the magic number, people still want choice. But when it comes to higher ticket investments, three is the magic number. If we go over three people, teeter then into overwhelm. That’s why Starbucks it, you know, you could buy a cup of coffee for eight bucks, no problem, but that’s not a high ticket.
MM (00:31:54):
So we can have 4,700 different ways to get pro wrap up, whatever, right? But with high ticket items, three is your magic number. Now what you want, I always say look to the car companies, right? Look at Toyota. They have a Corolla, they have a Camry, and then they have the Lexus. They’re, they’re there for a reason. They’ve done the research. They know there are gonna be some people who go, you know what, I’m just outta college. I need the Corolla. That just makes sense. It’s a nice car. Got good gas mileage shot. There’s gonna be some people who look at the Corolla and go, I could have the Corolla, but I want the Camry. I really, you know, I want a little bit more room. I want to pull up and have people say, that’s a nice car. I want something that’s reliable.
MM (00:32:38):
I want something I can have for a long time. And then there are gonna be some people who say, give me a little Lexus all the way. Like, I want the gold plated gear shift, right? Like all the stuff, there’s just gonna be some people that are always gonna pick that top tier. Mm-Hmm.
MM (00:33:27):
Now, we never wanna deliver something our client doesn’t need, but like you can have packages that offer different levels that allow you to deliver at different levels. So you might have an entry level, you might have a bootcamp, an intensive, a three month where you’re gonna work with people 10 sessions in three months, right? And that’s gonna get you get them started. And that’s kind of your Corolla, that’s the silver level, right? Then your gold, it might be the bootcamp plus an additional 10 sessions, but those are once a month. So now you can say, Hey, this package, that’s your gold option, that’s your Camry that gets them a full year of working with you. Like how freaking awesome is that? And then your platinum, your Lexus is, maybe it’s the full year of coaching, plus they come and spend a day and a half with you somewhere or you, you know make an arrangement with a spa.
MM (00:34:17):
Like one of my platinum packages for my CEOs and and high level people is I will do an a day and a half retreat at Big Sky Montana. I used to live in Montana, we know Montana, like, you know, like the back of our hands. I’ve got a place out there where I can go, I can book it out. And basically we spend a day together and then either have a half day of whitewater rafting hiking or skiing depending on time of year and depending on their interests. Now, some people see that and that package is crazy expensive, right? Some people see that and go, I want that. Some people see that and go, I can’t afford that, but I want the middle package. And maybe as we work together, I can afford the big package next year. Like I used to think having a more expensive option might offend people.
MM (00:35:02):
It might hurt people’s feelings and if it does, they’re not your ideal client, right? What I’ve found is most of the time those higher level packages inspire them to know that you see something bigger for them. Mm-Hmm.
MM (00:35:49):
So he has an arrangement, arrangement with an Olympic training facility. So his big, you know, Lexus kind of platinum package is two days where he meets with a client, they hang out, they go work out, then they come back and dream some more, and then they go work out on this thing and then they dream some more and plan some more and then they go do this thing. So it’s like, think about dream about what would you love to do with your clients. It can be expensive, it can be amazing. And obviously they’re paying for your travel. So like, it can be whatever you want. I actually, one of my co coaching clients, a big thing happened for her in Paris. So twice a year she takes five to six of her clients to Paris. That’s a part of her big package is not only is it the trip, but it’s also like-minded people hanging out at the Eiffel Tower, that kind of stuff. So it really can be stuff that gets pretty exciting.
AJV (00:36:42):
Yeah, I know. I love that. And it, and that makes me think of two other quick questions. Yes. And I’m gonna pivot just a tiny bit. So I love it. I know that there are people listening to this going, yeah, that’s all’s awesome. Where do I find these people who wanna pay me $25,000? Right?
MM (00:36:59):
Right. Exactly. Where
AJV (00:37:00):
Do I find them? So I would say it’s like, where do you start? Like yeah. You know, for everyone who’s going, man, I’ve got a good coaching practice, but it’s like I do need to increase my prices. I de yeah, I do need to uplevel things because I’m giving away a lot for free that I’m not charging for. Yep. So in order to do that, like how do you find your ideal customer?
MM (00:37:21):
Right? I love that question. And it is so real, right? And it is so important. And I do think that, you know, one of the things that’s wild is especially when I work with people who are either in our program or thinking about entering our program they’ll ask me questions and I will, I will ask a follow-up question. And that is, are you getting paid for that coaching? Like, they’ll bring up a problem they’re having with a client and I’ll say, are you getting paid? No. I was like, well I have good news because once you start getting paid, those are free client problems.
MM (00:38:11):
Like, I had to find a place to start. But once those people started to pay, I realized like I don’t have to have 20 clients a month in order for this thing to work. If I’m pricing this right, I only need a few. That’s why I laugh sometimes at, you know, some of the coaching you, you probably laugh too, some of the promises, some of the coaching programs that you see in your Instagram feed where it’s like 30 clients by the end of the week for one-on-one coaching, and you’re like, why that h would somebody want 30 clients in a week? That’s nuts. Like, I wouldn’t want that. Like I’m like, do you, like I get why somebody would offer the moon, but like that just means you don’t know what you’re offering mm-hmm.
MM (00:38:59):
But as you start to, as you start to give yourself permission to charge for those things, right? It doesn’t take a lot for it to start to get traction. And, and I will say this, one of the things I’ll, I’ll just throw out another strategy that almost everybody when I, when they start working with people, they, they’ve all had that cringe. Like, I knew I shouldn’t offered to do this coaching for free or I knew I shouldn’t have you know, offered to do two sessions with this person cuz it’s brutal. But almost everybody has had at least one client where they’re like, oh, that’s what it is. This feels great, right? Mm-Hmm.
MM (00:39:45):
But I always say one of the best ways to find more clients that are ideal are to start with your ideal clients. Mm-Hmm.
MM (00:40:37):
I always say like, literally that is my prayer, Lord, help me help as many people as possible and be known by as few people as possible
AJV (00:41:39):
I love that because it’s like, instead of paying referral fees or affiliate fees, it’s like no, get more sessions. Give
MM (00:41:46):
Them what they more what they want. And I always say, listen,
AJV (00:41:49):
I love that
MM (00:41:49):
You get these in your back pocket no time limit. Yeah. So you get these and you don’t have to use them in three months. These are, you got nine one one status you can call because those people, those are your advocates, right? Yeah. Those are the people who are yelling about you, but those
AJV (00:42:05):
Are the people you want to still do call. Exactly right. This is in addition to being awesome customers, they’re your lead source. Yep. Right? And it’s like, why would you give them money and send them on their way? It’s like Exactly.
MM (00:42:16):
Plus. And there’s data, you’ve seen this probably, but there’s data that shows that if somebody wants to do something like that, like refer and you give them money that actually causes dissonance. Mm-Hmm.
AJV (00:43:02):
I love that. I think that’s awesome. And again, it’s, we’ve heard it a thousand times before, but we’ll hear it a thousand more times. It’s like, make your services so good that your customer force becomes your sales force. Right, right. That’s what we’re talking about here. Okay, so the other quick question I had, yeah. And then gonna pivot is I would love to hear your quick perspective on contract terms, right? Do you have contracts? Are they three months, six months, nine months, 12 months? What are your recommendations?
MM (00:43:31):
So I definitely have contract terms and I put the contract terms in my electronic invoicing. And basically those contract terms are reflective of the package. So it will be of basically, you know, saying, Hey, it’s for this amount of time. There’s other specifics and I’m not a lawyer, I don’t play one on tv. So, you know, we talk about some of those elements in our training. But one of the things that I speak to is, hey, if you are gonna cancel, if you need to cancel on a call, do it with at least 24 hours notice. And if you don’t, you will stand to forfeit that call. Mm-Hmm.
MM (00:44:16):
What I find is when those things are outlined in your contract, that sends the signal, Hey, this person’s a pro. This is not just like having coffee with my friend at Starbucks. This person is a pro, this is, this is intentionality, this is, you know, they’re professional, all these things, right? But what I also love to do is I love to have those things in my contract that are there to protect me, but they also oppose as gifts if I choose to give them mm-hmm.
MM (00:45:01):
Please reschedule this, blah, blah, blah. Now that isn’t our contract. I absolutely could say, yep, you lost it. And I mean, I have every right to do so. And it also allows me, I don’t, I very rarely get jack holes as clients. We’ve got a pretty good filtering. But if somebody was being a jack hole, I absolutely could adhere the contract. Sure. But I always say, if the boundaries are there, then it’s also a gift if I choose to give it. And that’s what we did. Sam knew what I would do, my assistant knew what we would do. She’s like, I know what Mitch will say. Do not worry about it. We’ll get you rescheduled. You will not lose this call. Take care of your kids family first. That’s what we believe. And that’s, I mean, and talk about what that did for this client. This client was like, oh my gosh, this is awesome. Just, you know, even more connection, trust, and loyalty. So yeah,
AJV (00:45:48):
I think that’s just again, you know, back to so many former episodes that we’ve had for all of you out there who are coaches or consultant speakers, it’s like, contract terms make a difference. Yeah. And it’s, those have a variety of things to ’em, but just make sure that they’re clear and set forth. Okay. So I’m gonna pivot just a little bit cuz we have just like five minutes left and there’s, I know there’s two, two more topics that I wanna talk about, you know, kinda high level. And you know, one of the things that, you know, I have found to be true, and so I would love just to hear your thoughts on this, for everyone who’s listening, listening is no matter what kind of coach you are, everyone does life coaching, right? And so I think it’s always so funny when people say, I’m a life coach, and I’m like, is it all coaching, life coaching,
MM (00:46:58):
So I love it. Oh my gosh. This is, this is where we could really talk for four hours. So one thing that I found, because I I, you know, in 2002, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, none of that existed. Cancel culture. Like you could tick somebody off, they might tell a friend or the newspaper, nobody will know about it. So it’s a, it’s a different era. Like we have to recognize this is a different era. Mm-Hmm.
MM (00:47:54):
Right. I’m not trying to say, if you don’t believe this, you’re wrong. Or if you don’t believe this, we can’t be friends. It’s just, Hey, I’m just trying to help. And I will often like with, we have two podcasts dream, think do and encouraging the encouragers. And in both of them, I’ll give them a heads up saying, Hey, we’re gonna get into some spiritual stuff. And if that is not your brand of vodka, just jump to another episode. No harm, no foul. And I’ll also say, I know in both cases, both audiences, you don’t have to believe what I believe, but that you’re more than likely to be open to talk about spiritual stuff. So that’s what I do is I say, Hey, listen, if that’s your not your brand of vodka, go to another episode. If you stick around, I hope you’re at least open to talk about spiritual stuff. If you are, I’m, I’m guessing since you’re still listening to this episode, we’re good to go. So we’re going for it. And what I find is, again, if I’m not focused on having people see that I’m right, I just wanna be helpful mm-hmm.
AJV (00:48:58):
Yeah. That’s so good for, yeah. Not just faith and spiritual conversations, but political conversations. Right. Race conversations. Because we
MM (00:49:08):
Need to have those conversations. Right. We need to be having those. I’ve also realized that there are some conversations you shouldn’t try to have on social media,
AJV (00:49:16):
Like most of of them,
MM (00:49:17):
AJV (00:49:50):
I, I love that because I think that this is a, a growing conversation of people are going, man, it’s like, I want that to be a part of the conversation. I feel like my clients are seeking it, but I don’t know what the boundaries are and I don’t know how to overstep it. And I think that’s a really great way. It’s like, hey, if you’re just focusing on helping of like, Hey, I don’t know if this will resonate with you, but this is something I go to, or this is something that I read, or it’s something that I saw or something I heard and it really helped me. Or I, I read this and I thought of you. It’s like always through, always through the lens of it. I just wanna help. I just wanna support and sharing it through your experience, not being preachy, but sharing it as like, Hey, regardless of where you’re at, I can only share what I’ve been through.
MM (00:50:32):
Yep. My experience
AJV (00:50:34):
Of helping and serving, that’s really, really good. And I,
MM (00:50:37):
I like nobody. God never forced anyone into heaven. He’s a gentleman, right? He loves people. And I think that’s the best way. Like that we can be a raging. Curiosity is love. Well bring excellence, charge for what we do. It’s a part of it, right? Mm-Hmm.
AJV (00:51:08):
Yeah. So good. And it’s like, I’ll drop another book out there. No. If y’all listening, have never read every good endeavor from 10 Keller. Yeah. I just love this book so much cuz it talks about how like we were created to create Yeah. We were created to work and somewhere along the lines work became a four letter word. And it’s not like work is good. Like somehow we turned it into bad. It’s like we were built for this. Yep. And built to receive abundance and goodness. And but man, you gotta work, right? We’re we do, we’re built for it. All right. Last question. I know we’re already one minute over, but I’m gonna go just like one minute more. I love
MM (00:51:44):
It. If you can do it, I can do it. Let’s do
AJV (00:51:46):
It. The coaching industry is booming. Yes. It’s love it. You know, if you just do a quick LinkedIn search, there will be more than 1.2 million people that pop up with a title of coach just in the United States. It’s estimated to do over 20 billion.
MM (00:52:04):
That’s with a b.
AJV (00:52:05):
MM (00:52:34):
I love it. So I think you’re exactly right. It’s interesting, you know, haven’t been in the industry for two decades. I’ve seen a lot of things come and go, seen some waves happen, see different things with the economy. It’s interesting because there’s a lot of people who are like we might have a recession coming. And it’s like, whoa, cool. Cuz people will need help navigating that. And what’s wild is, trust me, and you know, this, it, it’s amazing to me how many of my clients, their companies and their organizations are booming, but they feel bad about that. So they don’t talk about it.
MM (00:53:23):
So I always say, you know, we have to get ready for that. But I would say right now there is a wave of growth and awareness around coaching, which I find is exciting because there are a lot of coaches, but there are still billions of people. Now are all of those people hiring coaches? No, they’re not. But more I, more people are, and I would say one of the hardest things when I was first getting started was awareness of coaching at all. Mm-Hmm.
MM (00:54:05):
MM (00:54:51):
So AI helps you to deal with one of the biggest challenges of any content creator. And that is the blank page. Yeah. There’s nothing worth stand, you know, sitting there looking at a blank page, but chat G B T or you know, AI allows you to get started, right? But you gotta put your voice in there, you gotta put your own spin on it. You can never take something right from AI and put it out there. You gotta still have your voice. I also think it will probably eradicate the need for the lowest tier coach, that coach that is just offering one off coaching. Because one of the biggest things, I’m a good coach, right? And I ask good questions, but I know a big reason of why I am so, so successful is accountability and relationship. I know a lot of my people at a computer could ask a really good question that gets them thinking, but when the rubber meets the road, the it, that’s not gonna be what moves the needle.
MM (00:55:47):
That’s right. I’ve had so many of my clients tell me, the only freaking, you know, reason why I got this thing done was I knew Mitch was gonna be asking me did I get it done? And they’re like, I’m so glad I did. But that was the whole reason Mitch was gonna ask me. Mitch was gonna ask me. Those people aren’t gonna be affected. Yeah. But they’re not gonna look for the ai AI coach, the person who’s just like barely looking for coach, not really interested in really investing in themselves at all. Sure. That person’s gonna use an AI-driven coaching system, which, you know, I know they’re coming all of that stuff. So it’s yet one more reason why it’s so important to really get your systems in place and differentiate yourself from just that person who’s just doing the one-off from time to time coaching when you have a true business. I actually believe that AI is gonna drive a deep, deep need for authentic connection. So I think coaching, I think the wave for coaching, I think it will be some weird waters as these two waves hit. But I think for those people who are ready and are riding on top, I actually think it’s gonna unleash some of our biggest opportunities and our biggest impact especially as we’re ready for them.
AJV (00:57:00):
Oh, I totally agree. In fact, one of my favorite ing quotes is there are no good writers, only good editors,
MM (00:57:10):
AJV (00:57:11):
And
MM (00:57:12):
Ai. It’s very true. Ai
AJV (00:57:13):
I love that, is allowing content creators to be editors. Yes. Right. If you’re struggling without writer’s block or Yep. Trying to get that, it’s like, that is a great way to use, you know, chat g p t it’s like, be a great editor, right? Yep. Put your That’s
MM (00:57:29):
Exactly right. And you gotta get your voice in there because I do think, I mean, it is amazing what it can do. Like the prompts that you can put in there, it’s like, woo, it could be get pretty close to your voice, but people will know. Like that’s gonna be one of the things that’s always gonna differentiate you is what is your voice. And some of you might be like, well, I don’t know what my voice is. I’m just getting started. The only way you find your voice is continually putting it out there and you’ll find it, but don’t let the AI do it for you. Find that, get started with ai, you know, use it, that’s great, but find your voice as you use it. Don’t let it replace you.
AJV (00:58:05):
Not to mention just on this topic, there’s gonna be a whole new opportunity for coaches to coach people on how to use ai.
MM (00:58:11):
That’s some of the highest paid coaches right now is people who are navigating AI and helping organizations. I mean, it’s
AJV (00:58:18):
Great. There’s always going to be the need for someone to educate another human being. Yep. Because at the end of the day, it’s like, this is, you know, one of the things that we preach at Brain Builders Group is that pre ai, pre-chat, chat, G P t, people do not pay for information. They pay for organization and application. Yep. Right. And those are the two things that are always going to be available to coaches to do so. Yep. All right. We are now officially eight minutes over. I will stop, look at us clock now. Geez.
MM (00:58:49):
Throw the clock right out window
AJV (00:58:51):
And before we go, yeah, this has been such an awesome conversation. But Mitch has put something really cool together for everyone who is listening. So we started off the out this call saying, you know, how do you know if you would be a good coach? Like, how do you know? And so if you really wanna know the answers to those questions actually check out Mitch matthews.com/vaden, our last name v a d e n, so mitch matthews.com/vaden and he’s put together a whole little set of things to help you know if you would be a good coach. And then also just poke around mitch matthews.com, get connected to his podcast, get connected to him on social media, do all the things. And Mitch, thank you so much. This has been so helpful. So many good nuggets, and also just really fun. So thanks for being on the show.
MM (00:59:46):
I love it. You are such an amazing host and the time has flown by, so thank you so much. It’s been an honor and an absolute blast. So thank you for doing what you guys do.
AJV (00:59:54):
We love it. We love having these conversations and we love having these conversations that help all of you guys who are listening. So don’t be a stranger and come back. We’ll see you next time on the influential personal brand.
Ep 400: How to Get a Big Book Deal with Nena Madonia Oshman
RV (00:02):
All right, my friend, you are about to meet somebody who changed my entire life. Her name is Nena Madonia Ashman, and she is somebody who I have known now since I was in my early twenties. So I once had the dream to become a New York Times bestselling author, and I had no idea how to do that. And I was at the bookstore, and I saw in the back of several business bestsellers the endorsements authors were thinking their literary agents. And I kept seeing this one literary agent mentioned over and over and over. And so I tried to get this agent to call me back, no response, sent emails, no response, sent fax messages, no response. And one day I flew to Dallas, Texas at three in the morning. I went to their office and I sat in the hallway because I thought if I could catch this woman walking into her office, maybe I could get five minutes.
RV (01:03):
And in that day, walked Nena Madonia Ashman, who she was Nena Madonia back then. So that’s still kind of how I, I know her. But I handed her my book proposal. I said, I promise I’m not a stalker. Although I kind of was at that point, and I was like, I have this dream. I wanna write a book. I know that I want you to represent me. This is like the firm and, and the whole thing. And she was like, well, we can’t work with you because you don’t have a big enough platform, but gimme your proposal and I’ll give you some advice. That started basically a two and a half year relationship of trying to get ahold of her, and then her giving me little bits of advice, us following it, me and aj like coming up with ideas and incorporating it.
RV (01:44):
And then some of you know the story. We in 2000, and I forget what year that would’ve been, it would’ve been nine, 2010. We sold the we signed with Nena. She then shopped our book proposal to several New York publishers. We had multiple bids. We sold that book. And then in February of 2012, that book came out as Take the Stairs and it hit number one on the Wall Street Journal bestseller list, and number two on the New York Times. And I’ve never done a public interview with Nena. And so without further ado, here she is. Nina, welcome to the show, friends.
NM (02:22):
Yay. Thank you. How fun, Nina. You can just call me Nena, right? There’s no n for the last name.
RV (02:28):
Everyone knows when you’re talking literary agency, you say, Nina, they know who you be talking about. They know like
NM (02:33):
That. They know. So, Rory, I have to tell you, I love talking about the story of how we met. And do you know that 15 years ago to, to the week, this week, we went to breakfast. And so that 3:00 AM flight we had like in the, you came in the spring, and I was like, oh my goodness, this author isn’t eager. He did send the fax. I did receive the fax and the blanketed emails, you know, back then the, you know, info emails that you sent, but you came, you, you said your cu you came then that day. And I, it was eight o’clock in the morning and you were just sitting there. Oh, it was, so now looking back, I remember thinking, wow, he’s very determined. But now I’m thinking, no, you are the coolest guy. I know. Coolest author. I know. But in June of 2008, that’s when we went to breakfast and we had this complete download of here’s what you need to do, here’s the strategy. You’re a speaker, here’s, you know, again, be what becoming a bestselling author would be. And I can’t believe it. I just thought about that 2008, that’s there. You, it, yes, it took two years. But Rory, you, I mean you and aj, what you guys have built with B b G and everything. I’m just so honored to be a part of the process, but I know you win. I knew you win.
RV (03:47):
That’s so funny. Well, that’s what I would love to hear, I think to talk about today, because I just, as I take myself back to the 15 years ago and it was earlier than that, that I was even trying to get ahold of you,
NM (05:07):
Yeah. Well you know what’s so interesting now and again, like, you know, our, like where books are, it’s, they stand the test of time. So to think about where, yes, it is a tedious medium, but it’s the most incredible and influential medium that is publishing. Publishing is you know, you own it. It’s your copyright, it’s your words. And I think it’s the most impactful. So what I love about the book and the idea, you can come to me with a concept, but really, it’s almost like your, your baby, right? Even if you haven’t birthed a baby, or, you know, it’s a, it’s a a different, it’s an additional business vertical for you. But I think even when you came to me was, what was so interesting about you is that you were speaking, you were the top speaker in your field.
NM (05:57):
You were sharing this mess, mess message of take the stairs, but it took two and a half years to get it sold. And that process of a literary agent, right, is, you know, by definition we help authors meet publishers and get a book deal. But there’s so much that happens before, during, and after that book deal process that I think is so important. And I think, Rory, you’re the perfect case study of, you know, yes, being focused on finding an agent, finding the right agent that fits you, being focused on really honing in on the content of what you’re gonna include in the book that may not necessarily be in your speaking platform. And then focusing on the book manuscript content. So then making it a bestseller. I mean, you really worked so hard and did that book, did your take the stairs come out in 12 or 10?
NM (06:48):
12? I can’t 12. Okay. So if you can think about it, you met us in 2007, 2008. We worked with you for two years. You got a mag massive book deal for a first time author. You used that to then invest in the book process and in the tour and the marketing, and also to hone in on the messaging that is included in the book that impacts your audience. And then when the book was published, that’s when the real work began. And you did a bus tour and you, you launched and marketed that book beautifully to then now flash forward, where are we? 11 years later, that book still stands the test of time and it’s yours. Mm-Hmm.
RV (08:05):
Yeah. Well, thank you. And I, I love that. And, and just to, so to highlight a few of the pro, so you said that earlier, what is a literary agent? So basically you have a New York publisher who gives the, give the authors a book deal. Usually those publishers are going to choose their books based on relationships they have with agents because they know that agents help vet the authors out and help clarify and do a lot of that work to like, I guess create a concentrated focused message and a plan. And then you have to create a book proposal, which is the, what I didn’t understand was that basically the book proposal is your sales tool that as the author, I have to create that tool to get with you, but to give to you so that you can take that tool and walk into an editor of a major publisher and say, here’s the book idea.
RV (08:58):
Here’s the author, here’s the plan, here’s why you should sell it. But in order to get there, you have to do all the work of building the platform and narrowing the idea and working on the premise and developing, developing the audience. So it’s kind of like you go, you need to get an idea, you shape that idea into a proposal, you get an agent, the agent helps you, you know, modify the proposal, have a tight proposal, go to a publisher, sign a book deal, write a manuscript, then you publish it, promote it, and then that just goes on forever. So is that kinda like a pretty accurate, you
NM (09:30):
Know what, yeah. Come, I’ll hire you. I think it’s, I think what I was trying to focus on is like being a literary agent is, is yes. You know, helping an author kind of manage the process, almost being like the hub, the authors, the c e o and the publisher is a conduit of, you know, and, and the printer and the distributor, and the agent is almost like, you know, like the c m o of like organizing and coordinating all the efforts from the idea through and beyond the publication. But, you know, I always like to think it’s like, yes, I’m a sale, I’m a salesperson of your proposal and your concept, but really the author is the best salesperson of their concept. And so, yes, you do need an agent and you do need a publisher. But there’s so many ways to publish now that yes, honing in on getting a book proposal is ultimately what helps you set up kind of your brain map, your brand map for what the book will be, like, a book blueprint.
NM (10:33):
But to be honest, it, you know, the where, where you, and I don’t know what your expectations were when you started the process, but where you start is almost not necessarily where you end up in terms of the publishing process, but you’ll exceed your expectations if you have someone like an agent walking you through the process. So in a way, yes, you can get a publisher, you can get a distributor, you can get a printer, you can, you can have someone help you, you know, coauthor your concept. But all those moving pieces I think are really kind of, they’re crucial when you have someone like an agent to help you coordinate all the all the different aspects.
RV (11:13):
Yeah. And so, so let’s start with, I think one of the first questions, and I struggled with this for a long time, was how do you know if you should traditionally publish or if you should self-publish? And I guess to me, I almost think of three buckets. I think of traditional publishers, I think of hybrid publishers, and then I think of self-publishing, which is basically like Amazon, k d p these days where you just like upload a file and you have a book at least an ebook there. How do you know as an author when I should go to Amazon and like self-publish my book, when I should pay money to a publisher to help me produce an asset, which is like hybrid publishing where I own all, all the rights, but I’m still, I have to pay a lot of money to get them to produce it. Or I should go to a traditional publisher where they’ll pay me and they’ll pay all the costs, but like, which way is the right way to go? Like, I know you get that a lot. That’s a huge part of what you do is help people sift out that question, right? Yes.
NM (12:08):
Yes. And several B B G clients are, are now a part of the, the whole mind brand of understanding what that is. I think the Rory, I think it’s three things. It’s understanding the time and I, and I really thinking, okay, do I need to publish this tomorrow? The second thing is the resources. What do I, how can I publish this tomorrow, right? If say, your, your idea is so ready to go and you wanna publish it tomorrow, do you have the resources to support you doing that? And then the audience, do you have the audience? So it’s the three things of time, resources, and audience that will help you determine which route to go, which publishing route. I think that you know, there is no wrong way to publish, but there is a wrong way to promote and to market.
NM (13:01):
And I think that for an, for an author, you have to be almost like thinking about a bi, creating a business plan for the book so that you can see, well, yes, maybe my book needs to be published tomorrow, but asking the really hard questions, does it, does, does it need to be published tomorrow? Do I need to, you know, take my time to develop the audience? Do I need to take the time to find the a a really a good collaborator to help me hone in on the actual words on the page? And so I think putting it into those buckets and then almost ranking them. So like, you know, if you’re eager to get it published tomorrow, well then, all right, other things are gonna probably you know, you need to kind of, kind of put, put the lever, push the lever on the marketing, and push the lever on the you know, the audience to make sure that all those kind of aspects work.
NM (13:54):
But then if you’re like, oh, I need to actually build my audience. Well, maybe the time lever kind of kind of backs down, and then you push, push more on the audience. I don’t know if I’m making sense with that, but all the whole point is that you have to think of those three key factors to identify, all right, well, if I don’t have an audience, well then my book’s not really gonna change lives and stand the test of time. So let me wait on that and then maybe find a collaborator that can help me massage that. And then also my audience will help me with the resources because they’ll tell me and dictate what I should really be focusing on with the book concept. So it almost like
RV (14:28):
Sync those, sync those up with the three, so you have timeline, resources, and audience. Yeah. So if you’re gonna traditionally publish, that means a longer timeline.
NM (14:38):
So I, I love the buckets that you put that in. The three publishing buckets, the traditional hybrid and self-publishing, I do think there’s like these gray areas in between. Sure. So it’s almost like there’s five, but yeah. To put it into those, to, to sync that up. I think publishing traditionally takes the longest. And but yet as you’re taking the longest to build your audience and build the, the resources around that, so you can create kind of like the business around, around the, the traditional publishing space. And then on the opposite end, if you’re thinking about self-publishing, well, you can just do that tomorrow and, you know, see what happens. It’s almost like if the self-publishing part is probably the, the least amount of time, resources and audience where, and then on the other side, the traditional is like, no, you, you need to take your time and also take your time with the audience and, you know, build the resources
RV (15:29):
Mm-Hmm.
NM (15:43):
They’re looking for authenticity. So it can, it can look like you need 30,001 Instagram followers. But that’s not it. It doesn’t have to be the, the, the number on your social media you know, LinkedIn posts or likes or Facebook’s likes. It doesn’t have to look like that. It can be what your audience is, is craving from you and what you crave to share with your audience. And that authenticity is a solution that the publisher looks for to secure a deal. So I mean, right now I have an a veteran author like you who I am pitching right now, and he’s had six books on the New York Times bestseller list. And he is, he can, he, he can take his pick of whoever publisher he wants to work with, but he’s a guy that’s thinking about, okay, well who’s gonna be my best partner?
NM (16:41):
But for a first time author, you know, they’re, they’re looking, it, you know, you’re kind of, I almost think like the second book is almost like the, the best kind of way of like, what, what publishers look for because you’re the most attractive first time authors have the hardest because, you know, they have to kind of develop their own platform and plan and proposal like, and, and really present this presentation to a publisher so that the publisher really falls in love with them. And so you’re kind of like on the, on the selling block of like, who, you know, who will take me. But at the same time, it’s the publisher looks at like your authenticity. But then the second book, I’m going on this tangent cuz it, I will have a
NM (17:30):
So that number of the social media, you know, saying that 30,001 you know of, of your followers on Instagram it’s what are they saying on there, right? What are they, how are you reacting to them? And how are, how are the published? How are the author? How are the, how is the, ooh, what are you saying to your audience? Audience? What is the audience saying? Back to you, back to you. So it’s, again, it goes back to the authenticity. I know I’m like going all over the place, but I think it’s like, yes, how do you make yourself attractive? It’s by being, by having the idea that’s the most authentic to you
RV (18:04):
Now. So authenticity a big part of it. Now, audience, I mean, when you look at the, the, the size of the advance you get and you go, some people get a $20,000 advance, some might get a hundred thousand, a few might get, you know, 300,000 and fewer still would get a million plus is basically the delineation point there. The audience size,
NM (18:34):
It’s the, it is the genre of which you are writing your book. It’s what the book genre is.
RV (18:43):
Oh, that’s interesting. It’s
NM (18:45):
The risk that the publisher wants to take on that author. If you’re a first time author, the risk is higher. And it’s also the, you know, like the flurry, the enthusiasm, the excitement. I mean, I’ve done a lot of books that, you know, are so timely that if you published it this year, you know, it would, it would be a huge success. But maybe in 10 years it may not be. You know, there’s always kind of like a publishing cycle in terms of like what’s like a hot idea and a hot topic. But I had never really think about the trends. I always think about what the author is saying is how the author is trending with their audience. And so, and you know, your audience doesn’t have to be big. It just has to be yours. It has to be, you know, someone that you are talking to and whether you know, that’s online or it’s speaking or you know, you’re on TV or you know, you’re, you’re blogging. I think it’s just what are you saying and how is the audience responding back to you? But yeah, so I think it’s, again, the genre, it’s the, the enthusiasm and the flurry and the excitement of whatever the concept is based on the timing of when you’re selling that. And and then really it’s just like, again, I go back to like what you’re saying to your own audience.
RV (20:10):
What about, so what are agents looking for? Is it, would it be the same things? Or if you go like, cuz you know, you got, alright, that’s what publishers are looking for and that’s how they’re paying. And for those of you listening that if you don’t know how it works, an agent gets a percentage of the advance. So they’re incentivized. The, the incentives are aligned with you to go, they wanna sell it for the biggest advance cuz then they get, that’s how they get paid. So what are you looking for as an agent to go, all right, you’ve worked with all these authors, people are coming at you constantly and you’re going, how do you sift through the pile of emails and the unsolicited manuscripts and the phone calls and the, you know, people to go, this is who I’m gonna work with.
NM (20:57):
I’m always looking for someone that can communicate some their idea flawlessly. I’m looking for the obscure that everything needs, that everyone needs to know. And you know, it’s like the, it’s, it’s funny cuz it’s every agent. I don’t, I can’t speak for other agents, but I think for me, if I believe if they, if the author believes in their concept so much, then I know I can get on board and I know I can sell them. I have a hundred percent track record of actually closing deals. Not to like, you know, just, you know, shut my shoulders off. But I think for you, Rory, you’re the perfect example. Take the stairs was something that you believed so much in, you got me on board, well, let me help you get other people on board. Let me get a publisher. Let me get you in front of people that can really help you make your dream come true. So I think as me as an agent, I always like to kind of just talk to the author and sometimes that pitch, I know the traditional way of doing it is you know, writing a letter, writing a query letter. But I think it’s just, you know, using referrals and making sure that that, that you’re knocking on the right door and, and that you’re, the agent not only pays attention, but that you, you’re so passionate about the idea that you can convince me that it’s a great idea. And so I’m working with a
RV (22:18):
You recommend people flying to wait outside of your office door
NM (22:24):
I rem I mean, that day
RV (22:25):
I would recommend that as
NM (22:27):
In that suit I will, it was a brown suit. I mean, I cannot believe I remember that anyway, but yeah, no, I don’t know if I recommend that. But I do think it’s fun to do something really clever. I mean, I do know of another author actually it was you,
RV (22:55):
Don’t, we shipped, we shipped her, this was AJ’s idea, but we, this was after we had opened a relationship with you, but we were having a hard time kind of like getting you back on the phone. You know, that first time you gave me feedback, you gave me a lot of feedback, which was helpful and painful, but, but then getting you back the second time to go, hey. And so we sent you instant oatmeal, instant pudding, instant coffee, instant jello. Basically we went to the store and anything instant we could find and we put it in a basket with the book proposal and a note and we shipped it to, to Nena. And it, the note said, hopefully by using these products, you’ll get a few extra minutes in your calendar to, you are no AJ proposal.
NM (23:37):
No aj. And it did. It did. And it was amazing. So, no, I mean, I think it’s, and I, but I think it has to be a fit, right? Like you, I I, I’m not a fit for everyone because I’m very direct and very specific and sometimes go all over the place like I have on this conversation. But if I treat my authors like family, and I see not just the value in their one book concept, I like to see that they have many book ideas that they want to position and that they have, they, they are so passionate not only about writing books, but they’re passionate about communicating and, and articulating in words. And writing is so different than any other medium, and it’s the most gratifying for the reader. And that’s what I look for. I look for how the reader can be impacted by the author’s concept.
NM (24:25):
And then I see, you know, again, it can be, I, I like to see the multitude of books that can come out of the one concept. And yeah, I mean I primarily do nonfiction. I have done fiction and I love fiction, but I, I think every agent is different and it’s a definitely acquired taste. But to me, my authors, I have been with them for five books or two books or, you know, again, we’re there, there’s so many amazing people and amazing agents that can help bridge the gap and, and ease all kind of like confusion about what publishing is, but also that can champion your idea when you don’t want to.
RV (25:05):
Yeah. Yeah. I mean it, it’s, it is like, I mean, it’s, it’s like having a child. I mean, you put your whole life into the passion concept. It’s like, you might not need to get on a plane and do it, but you gotta be willing to do it, right? I mean, we emptied the last dollars we had in our checking account and a hundred percent of the advance we went all in on the idea. And that is kind of what it takes, I think, to get the attention of a top literary agent and to do the work it takes to craft a great premise and a proposal and to capture the attention of you know, a major publisher and then most of all to do the work it takes to tell the world about the book once you create it. I mean, that, that, that was the part, it was like, it was three, it was like three mountains. The first mountain was crafting the idea and getting the agent, like, just getting that. Then the second mountain was getting the publisher and writing the manuscript, and then the third mountain is actually marketing and promoting it. And it was like, I just had no idea, you know, I’m halfway up the first mountain feeling exhausted, being like, I’m kid, you’re, if I could go back, I’d be like, kid, you’re not even close. Like, you might as well like just gear up for the ride. Like we got a long way to go.
NM (26:24):
Well, and, but then you’re, you’re neglecting the fact that you gotta go down the mountain and then it doesn’t plateau. It’s up to you. After you reach that third mountain, it’s, you get to determine what the landscape looks like. So you can make it rocky, you can make it a plane, you can go back up the mountain and have another really tall peak and see the view from, from the fourth mountain, from the fifth mountain, and really reap the rewards of seeing your book turn into a movie. Seeing your book in multiple different languages, merchandise, I mean, there’s so many rights that happen after that third, there’s so many peaks that happen after that third peak. Mm-Hmm. And that’s where the fun begins. So I think that’s why like agents are Sherpa to use this example. You know, they’re Sherpa and we’re trekking along with you.
NM (27:12):
The author still has to carry the load, the, the, the author has to, you know, really the, it’s, it is heavy at times, but we’re right alongside you and we can also support and champion and, and you know, we’ve been there before. So, and I think every book looks different. Every author looks different. And I do think that like, you know, even for you Rory, like, you know, embarking on another journey with that book when hopefully whenever it comes out, we’re very excited to see what Adrian mm-hmm.
RV (27:55):
Aboutt, let’s talk about some of those cuz like that Fourth Mountain, the foreign deals, the you know, merchandise, the movie rights, that, that, that’s something I know that you’re really passionate about. And that’s something that I think a lot of authors are leaving on the table, whether they self-publish or they traditionally publish. They kind of get the book out there and it takes so much energy to climb those first three mountains. They’re like, I’m sick of my book. I mean, we call it, we call it the book Launch Hangover because it’s like, I don’t, I’m so sick of by the end of it, you’ve done 150 interviews, you’re like, I don’t ever want to hear about Take the Stairs again. Like, I’m done. But like you say, that’s really when the fun begins. So what are all the other derivative rights that a book can be turned into, and what are some of the ones that, you know, authors should be paying attention to that they’re not, or agents sh should be? Because like, there’s probably a whole bunch of things, even with Take the Stairs that we’ve never even explored or exploited. Like we do have a lot of foreign, foreign deals, but I think a lot of authors just move on to the next book and the next book and they don’t kind of like squeeze all the juice out of the one that they have.
NM (28:59):
Yeah. Well I think it’s, I think that’s really astute. They do move on to the next book, but I also think it’s like you keep the wheels turning, you keep it running while you’re moving on to other book concepts and other things that you’re working on. But I would just wanna speak to like the author who with the Hangover Yeah. Like you still have to kind of move, you still have to keep working. Yeah. And so even if you’re hungover, you gotta keep moving. So the thought is that the, the author may be tired, but the reader probably hasn’t even noticed Yeah. What you’re doing and where it is. And so you’ve gotta keep it fresh. And that’s where I think an agent can help saying, Hey, you know, you did great on that interview, don’t you? I I’ve noticed that the sales are actually spiking.
NM (29:40):
I noticed that this region is looking for someone again with, you know, speaking engagements. Let’s bring you out to say the authors in the Midwest. Let’s bring you out to LA and see if we can bring in you know, speak to the you know, like an insurance company or something. But to, to talk about the derivative, additional derivative rights, I think you have to keep the wheels going on selling, promoting, you know, working on that particular concept to see what comes around, I think you know, motivate, like the games you know, there’s, there’s many authors that this happens again, you can have a vision of like, oh, I wanna do a board game like Monopoly. And then it turns into like, UNO, but at least you have the concept and the, the blueprint to say, oh, I wanna do something with derivative rights, and then it turns into games. But that’s one gaming you know, t-shirts, hats you know, that’s a whole like line journals, workbooks again, foreign deals ebook foreign deals are significant. And then audible originals. So you can take a concept and then what’s
RV (30:44):
That
NM (30:44):
Audible originals or any kind of audio that’s separate from, it’s like an enhanced audio. So it’s separate from the book, but it’s still kind of derived from the book. And you can you know, take a concept, say a chapter and turn that into like, you know, a mini podcast. Maybe it’s episodic, maybe it’s you know, kind of more curriculum. But yeah, no, you can, you can turn it into speaking, you can turn it into coaching and curriculums and certifications. I could go on. Do I need to stop or I could
RV (31:18):
NM (31:45):
So number one, I always say like, slow your role, focus on the book concept first, and then you can think about journal and workbooks because you want the book itself that you’ve sold to live and thrive. And then have the audience talk back to you of what they’re looking for while feeding them things. You know, feeding them little kind of freebies to see, okay, should I do a workbook or journal or a different audio? Audio or a documentary? But I think in terms of like the workbook part of it the, in terms of what the publisher owns, it depends on how you’ve negotiated the rights and the terms and the contract. And you know, again, you can, you can limit them to just owning verbatim text, hardcover, electronic and audio. Those are the typical three that the publisher wants to own.
RV (32:37):
Say that again, it’s verbatim text, audio,
NM (32:41):
Well, verba verbatim texts of physical audio and E So physical is like the print. Got it. Audio is the audio ones audiobook and E is electronic Kindle and on your iPad. Gotcha. So those are like the three specific ones. And then there’s all these other ones that the publisher owns, like second serial, first serial. And again, this is like all contract specific. But then the rest is kind of free game. And unless you’re focused and unless you’re focused on it, you can miss it. And then the publisher can retain the journal rights, but that doesn’t mean that they own it because you still own it and it’s your copyright. So you just negotiate specific percentages that the publisher will receive based on what a the vendor wants to sell it to you or wants to buy. So again, if it’s a journal, you can create the journal if you own it, if you don’t own the rights, you can still just split a percentage with the, with the publisher,
RV (33:44):
Uhhuh,
NM (35:10):
Yeah, I think the, I think it doesn’t, so say your publication date is six months in advance. I think the work starts six months prior to it. And so you’re planning, creating this foundation of launching a book. And so I think the, everyone always feels, again, going back to the time everyone feels like, oh, a take that’s forever from now, a year to publish my book. That’s forever. But there’s a lot of work that has to go into it and it is a full-time job on top of the other things you’re trying to do in your day. So it’s good to have a long runway to to to, to work and market and promote and see what works. So, you know, Roy, I think it depends on the author of what they feel comfortable with. I do know recently I had an author who did not wanna go on social media.
NM (35:57):
She was terrified. And now her book came out and she started promoting online. And that book is now well she had zero followers on Instagram and now she has 30,000 followers on Instagram in three months. Wow. And a YouTube channel with 22,000 subscribers. So it’s almost like you have to lean into sometimes what you don’t wanna do and see what works. That’s why you have the runway. But social media always works talking about your concept before it launches. You know, it’s okay to give away free content and it’s okay to give away the title and talk about your book when it’s ready to announce. I have an author whose book’s coming out in November and he hasn’t told anyone about the book he lives in overseas. And the book is being published by Simon and Schuster. And so he did a author debut party where, because he is overseas, he came back, he went to New York, invited 200 of his closest friends and did this debut party.
NM (36:58):
And the book hit number one for pre-orders on Amazon two weeks ago. So I, I think, you know, those two examples are just someone, you know, feeling into what they feel like is what they wanna do or maybe kind of what they’re afraid to do and leading into it. But those are two that I thought have been really successful just recently of just like promoting you know, also speaking tours, getting pre-orders. We’ve talked about that, you know, doing a bulk order campaign. I think it’s just again, but it’s, it’s creating the business plan of seeing what the concept will be how it’ll resonate with you as the author. And also waiting for hearing feedback as you’re p planning, preparing for marketing here, feedback from the audience of, okay, well they did actually, like when I posted that on Instagram or that speaking engagement was really significant and special when I talked about, you know, the book title. So it’s really just kind of feeling into what is working for you and resonating for you. And then also just seeing what what sticks.
RV (38:03):
And then what about pr, I know you’ve had authors get on major Yeah. National television and podcasts and things. Are there any keys to making that work? Is it, is it worth hiring a publicist? Does it tend to not sell as many books as people think or like what your,
NM (38:19):
I think it just depends. I think it doesn’t, we don’t know what sells books until you start talking about it. Until you start kind of seeing what works. And that’s why it’s like, it’s the wild west of publishing, right? So hiring a publicist for you individually, I think certainly helps. But having clear expectations with the people that you’re hiring with the contractors, say it’s a marketing team or a publicity team, or your social media team, having clear expectations what you’re wanting out of that specific vendor is crucial so that you know what you’re wanting out of them and they know what they need to deliver for you. I don’t ever wanna say that a publicist should guarantee and move units for the author. I think it really just helps for branding and messaging. But then yes, if you get on a national TV show, it will significantly help the book and help your brand. So I don’t, I, I think it’s always good to hire someone who’s gonna be your advocate and the, the, the better the, the, the team that you create, again, because you’re the c e o and you’re like, you have your agent who’s kind of the, the operations person and you wanna make sure you have the team that’s really kind of communicating, cuz that is a recipe for disaster if they’re not communicating. And you’re not the one setting those expectations.
RV (39:34):
Mm-Hmm.
RV (40:22):
So just email [email protected], put literary agent in the subject line and send your proposal. And I want you to send it. I want that to come to me. I’m not gonna send it through to NMNena yet. I’m gonna vet it and I’m going to tell you because if we get, if we get Nina’s attention, I wanna make sure that by the time she sees it, she’s gonna be blown away because you only, sometimes you only get one shot, right? I mean, it’s, it’s, that’s the other thing is like, you need to put the work in here. So anyways, you can shoot us an email [email protected], just put literary agent in the subject line, send me your proposal, our team will look at it, and then, you know, if you’re ready, we’ll connect you right to Nina and be like, Hey, let’s go. And if you’re not, we’ll, you know, give you some ideas about maybe what you should do so that we can get you ready so that you can go see Nina. So outside of that, Nina, what do you think, just kinda like last thoughts. What are some of the biggest mistakes that you think authors make in this process, and what would you just wanna leave people with?
NM (41:25):
So, you know, I don’t really talk about mistakes. I feel like mistakes are just never really they’re never really mistakes, right? But I do think authors feel that they can’t share their material because they’re afraid of someone stealing it. And I always like to say like, you know, your words or your words, and no one can take those away from you. So your story is meaningful and let’s help make that more meaningful to your audience. I think that authors sometimes are clouded with the process that they think it, you know, the book, a book takes time and it is, you need to nourish it and feed it. And the more you put into it, the more you get out of it. And so sometimes the process doesn’t seem like it is exactly what you wanted it to be, but then if you look at it you know, over the life of a book, which is forever, if you look at a book, not week by week and what your book is selling, but you look at it over the course of a year and you see what you’ve done and what you’ve accomplished and you know, what you have seen and heard from your audience, speaking back to you and from, you know, growing your brand, I think is like more like seeing gratitude in that instead of being frustrated that you didn’t hit a list or you know, that, that something didn’t go well with one of the vendors.
NM (42:51):
So I do always seem like that. I had an author who was so focused on getting speaking into churches. All she wanted do was get her memoir into churches. And after years and years of trying to get into church she was very frustrated. She then realized, she looked at her speaking schedule and she said, wait a minute. I’ve spoken to 40 schools in the last two quarters, and now the New York Public Library is wanting me to speak there. And also the New York Public system, public school systems is buying 10,000 units of my book. And that was over the year of her first book. So I think I liked for authors to see gratitude in, in the process, and it’s, it’s never it’s never what you think it is, but it’s always extremely, extremely gratifying. Mm-Hmm.
RV (43:39):
NM (43:57):
Do it again. I’ll do it again. Come see me, come see me with a box of instant oatmeal
RV (44:02):
NM (44:23):
You’re best. Great. You’re the best. Thank you.
RV (44:25):
All right, bye-bye friend Byebye. Thanks
Ep 398: How To Build Your Brand In Mortgage and Real Estate Industry with Phil Treadwell
AJV (00:02):
Hey everybody, and welcome to another episode on the Influential Personal Brand podcast. This is AJ Vaden here today. And before I introduce my guest, I’m gonna put a disclaimer out there because every so often we will do an episode that is super niche for a very unique audience, and today is one of those days. And what we’re gonna be talking about today is how to use a personal brand to help you. If you are a real estate agent, you could be a real estate developer, a broker, you could be a loan officer, you could be in any sort of role that’s kind of touching this mortgage and real estate industry. And we decided to do this because one, at Brand Builders Group, we have a ton of audience members who serve the real estate industry, but also because the real estate industry is a little bit tumultuous right now.
AJV (00:58):
And one of the biggest questions that we get in terms of a personal brand is, well, how do I use that to actually leverage and differentiate myself to generate more leads when the market is interesting? I’ll just say that. But then also so many of people in these industries are also coming to us going, how do we diversify our income streams where the income stream that I had have been my main thing has kind of disappeared a little bit, or it’s, it just looks different today. And so I invited a newer friend of mine, Phil Treadwell, to be our guest on this particular show today because I got to meet Phil because I was on his podcast. And when we were talking at the end of that, I was like, you know what? I would love to have you on to talk about these niche topics on the influential personal brand.
AJV (01:49):
So now let me formally introduce Phil to you guys in case you don’t know him. So Phil Treadwell is a mindset coach. He’s a national speaker and a fellow podcaster. He’s also the founder of M one Academy. And as I mentioned, he’s host of the Mortgage Marketing Expert podcast. So if you’re in the real estate industry, that is a must listen to podcast, he’s also received lots of cool awards, like the 40 most Influential Under 40, Hey, but then also Top 20 Mortgage Professionals by Yahoo Finance. So it’s always good to tout some of those credentials while we’re having you on the show today. So feel welcome. So glad you’re here.
PT (02:28):
Well, thank you so much. That was a incredible intro. I’m excited to have another conversation. We, we covered a lot of cool topics on my podcast and it’s gonna be fun to do it again.
AJV (02:37):
Yes. Well, I’m so excited, and I also love getting to do these super niche podcasts that serve a really, you know, specific part of our audience. And so let’s just jump right in. So here’s the big question, right? It’s like, you know, real estate’s kind of crazy right now. It’s up, down all around. Interest rates are real high and making a lot of people not wanna buy, which means a lot of people in the mortgage industry are going, oh,
PT (03:26):
I think that’s a great question. At the end of the day, a personal brand, as you all know, needs to be about the person more so than the brand. We have some of the largest corporations on the face of the planet that are trying to personify that company. Well, mortgage and real estate, it’s about the person they work with, the realtor, the loan officer, the individual person. And yet we have so many professionals in the industry that are trying to create a shtick or a logo or a brand. And we need to be continuing to emphasize it’s about the person. Mm-Hmm.
PT (04:18):
You have a unique how you do it. And so it’s a matter of showcasing that with your own personality, with your own ways that you can get those people’s attention. And that’s really where people are, are thriving. Even in this market. There’s opportunities in every market. I don’t care whether interest rates are high and supply is low, people pay for solutions to their problems. And it’s just you using your uniqueness, you as a person and your ethos as a professional to solve those problems for people. And a personal brand just gives you the opportunity to put that out at scale, put it out at a really high level for people to find you and realize that you have the solution that they need.
AJV (05:00):
Yeah, I love that. I remember when I started I was part of a team of people who started our first company in 2006. What a great time to start a business in 2006. But we were so naive, we didn’t know, like we didn’t know what a good market was. We definitely didn’t know what a recession was. And I remember someone telling me in those first couple of years of starting our first company, and they said that during the Great Depression in the twenties, that more millionaires were form were formed during that 10 year period than any other 10 year period in US history. And, and that’s because it’s like you’re gonna, it’s all about how you view it, right? There’s op opportunities in every market, just like you said, it’s just gonna be like, who’s the one who perseveres gets creative, stays persistent and does something a little different. So what would you say are some of the things for, you know, the real estate professional, the, you know, mortgage expert, what would you say, what are some of, of the things that you’re seeing out there that really lends itself to working right now when it comes to building your personal brand?
PT (06:04):
Yeah, great question. Most mortgage and real estate professionals, when they know that they need to be on social media, they know they need to be creating content, they start putting out educational content, which in and of itself is a great idea. However, we have to realize that when people get on social media, they’re typically on social for a reason. In Texas, we, I talk about the, the God forsaken D M V. Now, that’s not what’s on the sign, but everybody that’s been here knows you wait in line for hours. It’s, it’s just a terrible experience. Well, when people are in that experience or you’re in the waiting room in a doctor’s office or in line to pick up the kids or whatever it is mm-hmm.
PT (06:48):
Right?
PT (07:32):
Instead of coming out and saying, Hey, here’s the biggest myth about the housing market right now, here’s three things you need to know. If you wanna start investing in real estate and coming up with a hook and letting people know, I have a solution that you need. I have an opportunity to show you how to do something. There may be a misnomer. And that’s what’s really working and getting people’s attention when it comes to educational content. But I think the other thing where people are, are grasping and, and really getting, gaining a lot of ground in this market is realizing that social media is also about social proof. And what I mean by social proof is if, if five years ago I said, you need to use aj, she’s an awesome loan officer, she’s gonna have an incredible process. She’s gonna take care of you.
PT (08:15):
If she says she can get it done, she can. Five years ago if I said use aj, they just wouldn’t use aj. Mm-Hmm.
PT (08:59):
It’s why when we meet someone, the weather, it’s the first thing we talk about. It’s the one thing we have in common with that person at that time. And so we realize that our aunt’s, brother’s cousin went to the same school as, you know, whoever they had. And, and we, we uncover all of these things that are in common. Social media is the perfect opportunity as you build your personal brand to find these quirky little things that are about you, that you like to do for hobbies that you notice about the world and share those with people so they can make that connection and solidify that referral that you worked so hard to get in the first place.
AJV (09:34):
Oh my gosh. Like, we’re gonna have to go off on a tangent because there are so many things that you just said that if you’re just listening and you weren’t really listening, you probably just let that slip by. And I cannot let that happen. So let’s talk about this for a second, because these are really, really good because everyone talks about social media. Some people talk about how much they hate it and how they can stand it. Other people don’t talk about it because they’re too busy on it and Right. And then there’s a whole group of people who are the I would say the educators of social media who are constantly teaching PE are trying to teach people how to use it, right? And it’s just like this funny, it’s this funny combination of how this really works. But at the end of the day, social media is a tool, right?
AJV (10:18):
Just like any other tool, food is a tool, right? Our, our money is a tool and there are good things and bad things about every tool, depending on how you use it. A hammer can build a house or it can be a, a weapon to hurt somebody. It’s a tool, right? And this is like such one of my pet peeves when people go, oh geez, social media is, you know, the number one just destructive thing for our youth. And it’s like, as probably we could say the same thing about food or parenting or a hundred other things, right? It’s a tool. So let’s talk about how to use this tool effectively in business, which that’s how I treat it. Like this is a business tool, right? And so I use it like I would in any other business tool, like my email. I’ve gotta have a schedule and I gotta manage it.
AJV (11:06):
So there’s a few things that I think are really important just to kind of come back on, as you said, ask yourself this question or this is what I heard anyways, which was ask yourself, why are people getting on social media? Mm-Hmm.
PT (11:57):
You know, I, I don’t know that I would recommend one topic I’m a big fan of and versus, or, and we get caught up in that a little bit now. I would say if you’re gonna do long form educational video type content, then YouTube and Facebook are probably going to be better suited for, for that type of content. If you’re going to do short form content that drives traffic to some of these other platforms, you’re gonna look at reels on Facebook and Instagram or potentially TikTok. But to your point, you’ve gotta know who is your audience. I have a a basic marketing formula that, that I kind of walk people through. And that’s the very first question. Who’s your audience? Who’s your target market? Who is it you’re trying to serve? The next question in there is what problem do you solve? What value do you provide?
PT (12:48):
Message you provide that particular audience? And then the third piece of that is, what’s the most effective medium to deliver that solution to that audience? And so where to find that audience is very dependent upon what problem you’re solving, what message you’re providing, so that you can create the most effective medium. Cuz especially in real estate, we have a lot of people that know a team that creates a lot of leads with a YouTube channel. So I’m gonna go out and create a YouTube channel or I, I love the, you know, podcast. I listened to a lot of podcasts. I’m gonna go start a podcast. Well, the reason I started a podcast specifically was I was a regional manager that was trying to reach more people and add value to their business that I could network with, potentially recruit. And I felt like a podcast was the most effective medium to deliver a valuable advice to build their business.
PT (13:43):
I didn’t know a lot of loan officers that sat on YouTube for hours. I didn’t know a lot of them that were even really on social media a ton because this was around 2018. But I did know people that listened to Audible and listened to podcasts cuz they could do it in their car. They could, you know, while they’re at the gym, walking around the house, even the background at work. So the platform is super important from the standpoint of is it the best place to give this message to that audience? Now we all know too, Facebook is kind of aging up or has continued to age up for a while. So if you’re looking at Gen Xers or, or older, Facebook is a great platform for you. Instagram, it’s gonna be solidly millennials, you know, TikTok has been Gen Z, but I’m gonna be honest, there’s probably as many millennials or more than there is Gen Z on TikTok anymore.
PT (14:32):
So a lot of it is about posting content different places and really understanding is my audience there When I post a video even now, and I’ve spent a lot of time, you know, researching some of this stuff, having conversations and testing content, I still take the same video and I post on Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, shorts, LinkedIn and TikTok to really understand, okay, the message of that video, the problem that I’m solving there is that audience on that platform resonating with it or not. So again, the the audience and who you’re trying to reach is, is very important. But when determining that platform, I think that that that messaging in there is a, is a critical piece.
AJV (15:12):
Yeah. You know, that’s so interesting. And I just wanna reiterate what you said. It’s like one for all of you listening it’s, and this doesn’t matter what industry you’re in, but it’s like, until you know who is your core target audience, the rest of this is a moot point. It’s like, if you don’t know that you’re just slinging mud on the wall and hoping some of it sticks, which just, just isn’t a good strategy, right? It’s just not. So step one is you’ve gotta really know demographically and psychographically speaking who your core target audience is. And then I love this part of what you said, it’s, and then you need to know why they’re getting on social media, right? Like to your point, it’s like if you’re, if this is a way to, you know, kill 15 minutes at the D M V, do I really wanna know what, you know, the, you know, definition of amortization is probably not.
AJV (16:00):
Or it’s like I want something that’s quick light, you know, probably more inspirational or entertaining in that moment. But if I was gonna sit down and go, Hey, and now I’m trying to learn something, would I go to Instagram or would I go somewhere else? Right? If I really wanted to have an in-depth conversation about what’s happening with interest rates in the mortgage world, I probably am not going to Instagram in general for me. Right? And that might be different from your audience, but those are the questions that you’ve gotta be asking. And I think that’s so good. It’s just sitting there going, why would my audience get on this platform in the first place? And am I, am I appealing to that or am I automatically going, no, I don’t, that’s not what I’m getting on here for. I don’t want this. That’s exactly right. All the work and effort you’re doing feels like it’s not working because you’re just doing it wrong.
PT (16:49):
Yeah. And, and you bring up a great point around what they’re getting on there for. Cuz it goes back to this, this conversation and business about solving someone’s problem. In those environments where people are trying to escape and they wanna be entertained or inspired, you need to solve that problem. They’re gonna pay you in time and they’re gonna give you their attention for that solution. So your content does need to be entertaining. And I will say when it comes to a well-rounded personal brand, I believe your, the majority over half of your content needs about who be, excuse me, the majority of your content needs to be about who you are, not just what you do. Mm-Hmm.
PT (17:43):
Mm-Hmm.
PT (18:31):
And as I’ve started to share that story with people, I now get five to 10 people a week that take a wing pick and tag me in it. And it’s become part of this relatability that you have with people. You ha i I think it’s important as you’re thinking about this, this question that you’re posing, why are people getting on social media? I think it’s to relate to people. And so the content needs to be relevant. If you’re working with first time home buyers, you’re typically gonna be steering towards a younger demographic in most cases. So what type of content do they wanna see? Mm-Hmm.
AJV (19:37):
Yeah. And I love what you said too earlier, it’s at the end of the day, and I think this is a, this is like the second thing that I wrote down, a really good reminder to everyone. It’s like a personal referral isn’t even enough anymore. It’s like, like you said five years ago, you say, Hey, use aj and it’s like, great, I’ll use aj, but now it’s like, well, let me learn about aj. Right? And that’s because the ease of doing so is like mm-hmm.
AJV (20:21):
And it’s like, I clearly, you know, I believe in this and anyone listening knows I believe in this is my business. But it’s like, it, it’s really true. It’s like people are going to go to Google and type in AJ Vaden and it’s like, what pops up or what doesn’t pop up, right? And it’s like if I go, I don’t care who you recommended me to cuz I do this all the time. I’m like, I need a new dentist, I need a new hair stylist, I need a new, if there’s no website, there’s no chance I’m using you. I don’t care how much you tell me you’re awesome. Right? If I can’t find Google reviews or some sort of social proof, I’m out. Cuz I’m just like, what, who did you refer me to? Like, don’t even have a website. There’s no reviews, there’s no social media. And so I would just love to hear your opinion on, for this unique industry, right? Calling, I’m just calling it the real estate industry mortgage included. What’s a, what’s enough like, right? Yeah. Like what’s the bare minimum and what would be like, this is what you should have.
PT (21:19):
Yeah, that’s a, that’s a tough question because it is obviously is subjective to each person. I get a lot of questions around how often should I post, how much is too much, what’s not enough? And my answer that I give about the frequency of posting is you need to be consistent. If it’s once a day or it’s once a week or a few times a month, I don’t know that there’s necessarily a wrong answer so long as you’re consistent. Because people will look at your profile and see, okay, you posted three days ago, but the last post before that was six months ago and it was three months before that, or two years before that. Right. People do pay attention to that. So I think it needs to be consistent more so than anything. I also think, like I’ve said before, there needs to be a good mix between personal and business content. Mm-Hmm.
AJV (22:26):
I know that name. I know Scott. I was like, this sounds so familiar. Yeah,
PT (22:30):
Scott’s a is a, is a, is a friend of mine. He’s he’s been on the podcast several times and he was telling a story about a guy who was a top producer and was just having a, a bang out year, you know, 20 20, 20 21. And one of his best friends ended up buying a house but didn’t use him as his loan officer. Now to his credit, the, the loan officer went to his friend and said, Hey, you know, just curious, did you felt like you didn’t couldn’t use me or whatever. And the response was super interesting. The friend said, Hey, I knew that my wife and I would have a ton of questions and we, we really needed to understand the process better. And I noticed that you kept posting that you guys were having record months and you were doing all these, these transactions and doing all this volume and we didn’t wanna slow you down.
PT (23:17):
And I think that that’s powerful for people to realize some of these things that we put out there. Yeah. To boost our reputation can potentially be working against you. So reviews and testimonials are good, but whenever we try to, what I kind of do ego posts where we, we kind of stroke our ego a little bit, sometimes that can have the opposite effect. There’s ways to show your experience, your credibility, position yourself as an expert within that context of that personal brand without deterring from it. So again, the frequency just needs to be consistent and mix it up. But just be careful. Why is your audience on there? They’re not on there to see that you have, you know, all of these accolades and that you’ve done all this stuff. There’s a time and a place for that. And a lot of times that’s not on social media.
AJV (24:02):
That’s say that for your website.
PT (24:04):
Yes. Yes.
AJV (24:06):
I think that’s really good. Now that lends me to another really quick question, and then I’m gonna change, change directions on us here. Do you think that in this world social media is enough? Or do you really think people need to have, even if it’s like a quick splash page or just a one page landing page? Do you really think people need to have a website or a blog or a podcast or a social media enough?
PT (24:33):
I, I personally believe you need a website. Now, I’m not saying it has to be a super robust website, but at the end of the day, your website, in my opinion, is your digital business card. Your social media platforms are gonna cater different types of content to different people. But social media is also about directing all of that attention someplace. If marketing’s about getting someone’s attention, we don’t really make any money on marketing. Where we make money on is sales where we create a customer. And that’s a lot of times more difficult to do if, if not impossible for most in mortgage and real estate to do. You need to have a website, you need to have a place that you can drive traffic. You need to have some type of a, of a call to action in that way. Again, it doesn’t need to be complicated, but having that is, is extremely important in, in today’s day and age for sure.
AJV (25:21):
Yeah, I think that’s really good. And I’ll just share one really quick thing. If you’re going hi, a website here’s just one really quick thing that I learned that’s really helpful. In interim, if you don’t have the time or the resources to actually go and get, even if it’s a mediocre one page website, which quite honestly today is you could probably whip something up for 1500 bucks if you just use a template, let’s just say you don’t even have time or capacity for that. Just at least go by your name, just by, you know, in my case, aj vaden.com and then have it redirected to whatever your most robust social media profile is. Right? Yeah. And it’s like, I did that for years when I was like, I don’t have time for this, so I just had it redirect my LinkedIn profile until you’re ready to do whatever. So, but at least secure your name and have it a redirect somewhere. Would you say that could be a good workaround for the very short?
PT (26:17):
A hundred percent. Yeah. And, and there’s lots of places and like I’m a big fan of Link Tree mm-hmm.
PT (26:57):
And one thing that I wanna make sure of when we talk about social media being enough is I have a personal belief that social media is about creating relationships. It’s networking. In the 21st century, you have to take the relationships offline. Mm. You, you can’t just have conversations with people, at least in mortgage and real estate and expect to have a long-term sustainable foundation for a business by simply just trying to interact with people online. Now, what does offline mean? It doesn’t necessarily mean in person. That might be email, that might be text, that might be in the dms, but it can’t just be in the interaction on the social media profiles because you’ve got to at some point create relationship. Mm-Hmm.
AJV (28:05):
Yeah. I love that
PT (29:25):
That’s a, that’s a good question. I’ve, I’ve not actually been asked this question before and I’ve done hundreds of episodes of my podcast and, and been on on a lot of others into the hundreds as well. So I love this question. And I think my first instinctual or instinctive, excuse me answer is let’s go ahead and take some of our own advice. Meaning if we’re teaching people how to build wealth with real estate, a great way is to invest in real estate yourself. Hmm. You’re gonna create that much more credibility by saying, Hey, I actually own a couple of rental properties, or I have some Airbnbs or VRBO os and now I can show you in a different way how to utilize these things as well. I, I mean there’s even here in D F W, some, some top loan officers that make more money passive income through their real estate portfolio and, and things that they’ve built on the side than they even make, especially now in in their mortgage business.
PT (30:19):
Mm-Hmm.
PT (31:00):
If you have an audience of a specific amount of people and there’s certain type of products that that audience really needs or wants, there are ways to make money on advertisements or affiliates or things of that nature by just spreading the word about products, you know, that you believe in. So once you create a certain amount of attention and following, there are are numerous ways that you can do that. And I know a lot of people that have made their side hustle their full-time hustle, and you can still participate in real estate, you can still be a loan officer by pursuing this thing. And in today’s day and age, entrepreneurship is, you know, obviously kind of a buzzword, you know, in the eighties and nineties, I mean, you didn’t have a job and then now it’s, you know, this this key to financial freedom. But for most of us it’s about really staying consistent and persistent over time. And as those things build up, it opens up so many opportunities. So the answer for those that haven’t built a brand yet is you need to spend a lot of time doing that and you’ll find all kinds of ways to monetize it. And whether you have a personal brand or not, you can invest in real estate and start doing the things that you’re teaching people to do already.
AJV (32:07):
Yeah, I love that. I think that’s so good. And I’m gonna just throw this in cause I, you mentioned this, like you were just on a two and a half week jaunt around the country. And I think speaking would be one, it’s like, no, you’ve gotta have expertise and you have to have some stage presence. But how did you get into that? All right, so how did you make the transition from regional manager to podcast hosts to, you know, you’ve got content you’re speaking, so walk somebody through the trajectory of like, okay, this is what it really looks like if you’re interested.
PT (32:41):
Yeah, it was, it was a happy accident. You know, I started the podcast to build my region and all kinds of cool things happened because of that. I was able to speak on some panels at industry level conferences that you’re not necessarily getting paid for. They may cover your ticket to the event, but then you start networking with a lot of people. And I think there’s a ton of mortgage and real estate professionals right now, regardless of how big your business is, that has a specific area of expertise that you can reach out to industry events and say, Hey, I have a proficiency for this. I’d like to know, is there anywhere in your event where that makes sense for me to be a panelist or for me to have a little short spot where I can just kind of share this thing and, and have it very defined.
PT (33:24):
And then from there, as you start meeting other speakers and you start continuing with your craft, I’ve never been to an event where they’ve reached out to me to speak that they haven’t said, Hey, who else do you know that might be a fit mm-hmm.
PT (34:13):
I took a few workshops on showing up better in communication and speaking to where I, all of a sudden someone reached out and said, Hey, we want you to, you know, fly to this place and, and speak. We’re gonna cover your travel and your ticket. We can’t really pay you anything. But at that particular event, there was a Hall of Fame football player that spoke right after me and then Rudy Rudiger for the one for, for Rufi, if everybody’s seen the movie Rudy. And so it was me and then Darren Woodson, who’s a hall of fame cowboy football player and ESPN n commentator. And all of a sudden I’m like, okay, well I didn’t get paid for this event, but all of a sudden I’m on stage with these people and then it just turns into, you know, paid speaking gigs. And so there, there is a, a huge opportunity, especially for mortgage and real estate because there’s so many types of businesses within our business.
PT (35:03):
Not all real estate teams are the same. Not all mortgage teams are the same. So whatever your skill is, listen to podcasts on it, read books on it, get educated, take workshops, invest in yourself and then come up, here is what I’m good at. Here’s what I’m proficient, here’s what I love talking about that I can, I can bring some passion to and then literally start asking people to do that. I still will reach out to events and say, I all the speakers you have on there, I love what they’re doing. I have some friends on there, here’s where I think I can add value. And then there’s at the same time other places that reach out and say, we want you to come, you know, speak at our event. That’s become something I really enjoy doing and, and want to do a lot more of. And it, there’s, there’s opportunities for everybody, especially in this space to, to be able to do that as well.
AJV (35:47):
I love that so much and I think that’s such a great reminder. And the number one thing that I gleamed from what you just shared is sometimes the best opportunities are not the ones that you get paid for. That’s right. But you’ve gotta be willing and you’ve gotta, you know, be a little opportunistic. Yes. And it’s like you’re gonna get paid eventually. You just may not get paid in that moment. And I yeah. Know so many people who are turning things down cuz it didn’t offer to pay. And I’m like, well, have you ever been paid before? No. Well, it’s like
PT (36:50):
Yes.
AJV (36:51):
And I, that is such a great reminder of like, man, the gift is in the practice. It’s in honing the skill, it’s in the networking, it’s with who you meet. It’s like that’s the gift. Like that’s how you get paid until one day you get paid even more.
PT (37:10):
Yes. So there’s, there’s two quick things that I wanna, I wanna put an exclamation point on that. The first one was I, this last two and a half weeks, I spoke eight times in five different cities. And as I came back and was kind of debriefing with, with my coach and my mentor a guy who’s done Ted Talks and, and has a very high speaking fee and, and really coaches me on this side of my business. And he was just asking me to kind of give my impression on it. And the first thing that came to mind is almost exactly what you just said. There were things that I learned throughout each of these hour long, you know, onstage me talking to an audience, you know speaking events. There’s things that I learned that I could only have learned by doing that thing.
PT (37:53):
And we need to remember that you can’t dial in something, you can’t get better at something, you can’t fix something that you’re not actively doing.
AJV (38:42):
So good and such a good reminder to, to all of us. And I probably could come with like, come up with like five more questions that I’m like, I know everyone is gonna want to hear. However, we’re out of time. And so if you really want to learn more about what’s happening in the industry and how to build your personal brand to grow your business, diversify your income streams, then I would encourage you to go check Phil out at his website. You can go to phil treadwell.com, I will spell that out in the show notes, but it’s phil treadwell.com. You can also go follow him on all the social media sites, which is everything is at Phil Treadwell. So Instagram do you have a social media platform of choice that you want people to go to?
PT (39:25):
I mean, Instagram’s probably where I’m most active, but I’m active on all the socials. If you, if you DM me on one of the social media platforms, I’ll get it and I’ll respond.
AJV (39:34):
Awesome. Phil, thank you so, so much for being here. So many good nuggets, so many good tips. And y’all, so much of this is transcends the real estate industry. This is just good business advice, but I think for this unique opportunity to serve the real estate mortgage professionals and our audience, this one’s for you. Stick around for my summary episode next and we’ll catch you next time on the influential personal brand.
Ep 396: Creating Superfans with Brittany Hodak
RV (00:02):
Well friend, you are in for a treat. I’m gonna introduce you to one of our best friends in real life. This is Brittany Hodak. Our kids go to school together and we actually hang out with them and we love them. She’s also a client of ours and I am now a super fan of hers. And she has written a book called Creating Superfans, which I’m gonna go ahead on record and say this is one of my all-time favorite books, period in business. And specifically in the area of customer experience. And you could call it customer service or marketing just in general, but I would say customer experience, which is really what her expertise is. In fact, she’s the former Chief Experience officer for experience.com. She was the c e o of a company and the co-founder of a company called the Super Fan Company. She’s worked with some of the biggest brands in the world. Walmart, Disney, Katie Perry, Dolly Parton. The other night I was flipping through tv. I was on watching like mainstream national television, and there’s some show about Britney Spears. And all of a sudden Britney Hodak pops on the screen and I’m like, wait, what though? What the, wait, that’s Brittany, what are you doing? Like, why is Britney in my tv? So buddy, it’s so great to have you. I cannot wait for you to share your expertise with our audience. Welcome.
BH (01:21):
Thank you so much my friend. It is always great to be here with you, and thank you for the very kind words about the book. It means a lot, and I’ve said it before. I’ll say it again and again. I could not have written this book without the support of you and AJ and the entire team at Brand Builders Group, so I’m glad I did. You proud.
RV (01:37):
Yeah, you, you totally, you, you you did me proud. And then like, one level above, you know, I endorsed the book without reading the whole thing. And then after it came out, I, I, I have read this book cover to cover, which, you know, I cannot say that about every single guest. You know, I try to like, be familiar, but like I have read it cover to cover. I absolutely love this so much that I, you know, I’m recommending you to our clients and like our keynote clients. So let’s talk about super fans. As personal brands, obviously we understand we gotta have super fans. We gotta have people loving us, sharing our content, buying our books, telling their friends. So I guess gimme the, gimme the definition of a super fan in your, in your world, and then we’ll talk about how to create ’em.
BH (02:24):
Yeah. So I define a super fan as either a customer or stakeholder who has such a great experience with you that they become an enthusiastic advocate. Mm-Hmm. So they not only wanna work with you again, but they tell their friends about you. Exactly like you just said. They make those introductions and those referrals. Essentially, a super fan is a customer who creates even more customers.
RV (02:46):
Yeah. I mean that, and that is the, you know, one of our BG mantras is the, the most powerful form of marketing in the world is a changed life. And it’s like no ad, no, no webpage, no copy. Like nothing does the job that like a customer going, you freaking rock. And all of my friends, you know, tell, they tell other friends, enthusiastic advocate is super duper clear. So let’s just jump into the super fan. I know you have the, you have a, you have a great methodology, you have a great framework. I think it’s totally applicable to what we do. Well actually, so before we do that talk, talk about the, the, the, the layer. Talk about the levels. Ta talk about the layers of I forget what you call them, but like the, the spectrum sort of, of like where customers are at.
BH (03:42):
Yeah, absolutely. So in the book, I talk about this idea of the ladder to super fandom. And you know, the more advocates you have, the fewer ads you have to buy, the easier everything gets mm-hmm.
BH (04:17):
Like, not enough people care that I exist. But in reality, and especially with personal brands, it is so prevalent. So in the book I talk about this idea of the ladder to super fandom, and the very first rung of that ladder is apathy. But people try to skip over that. They try to start with awareness of like, I want somebody to know who I am and that I exist. But the problem is, if you don’t have a compelling enough story, if you’re not able to connect what you do, what your purpose is with the need that they have, then they’re never gonna care. It’s gonna be like the, you know, the analogy I use in the book is that carnival ladder where it’s easy to get somebody on the first step and maybe even the second step, but then they just fall over because apathy is everywhere all around you.
BH (05:01):
There’s never been more competition for our attention. There’s never been more competition for somebody to care about the thing that you do. So throughout the book, I talk about this idea of transforming from a commodity provider to a category of one, going from a transactional relationship and mindset to an experiential one where it’s about more than just your products or your services and even more than your relationships. It’s all about that experience. So the idea of the laddered super fandom, and you know, we don’t have to go through all the rungs, is, is how you take someone through each level of, okay, I know how I’m gonna overpower that apathy. Now somebody is aware of my brand. How do I get them to take an action? Now I’ve gotten them to take an action. How do I get them to adopt this? How do I make it part of their, their plan their life, once I’ve got them to adopt it?
BH (05:52):
What do I do to create affinity? And, you know, most people stop at Affinity. I talk in my book about the idea of the difference between fans and followers, or the difference between fans and super fans. And most people are like, oh, I’m in someone’s consideration set now. They’ve tried me a few times, now they like me. They’re coming back. And that’s where they stop. But if you can create someone, if you can take someone from that like, you know, affinity level of, oh, I like you, to that advocacy level of I like you and I can’t wait to tell other people about you, that amplification is what really makes things exciting, both on the personal brand side and on any business side. Because once you have those customers creating more customers for you, once your followers are telling their friends and growing your audience, it becomes really viral and, and really effective.
RV (06:43):
Mm-Hmm.
RV (07:17):
And I completely overlook as a first opportunity to go, what if instead of trying to make more people aware of me, I took the people who already know of me who have apathy and go, what if I just took the people who know of me already and made them fall in love so much that they became advocates? And I, and I just go, no one in the world is ha no one in the personal brand world is thinking about this. Everyone is going more followers, more reach. I need more people to be aware of me versus going, what if the, the few people you had freaking loved you, they would do that work for you is basically what you’re saying.
BH (08:07):
That’s basically what I’m saying. And I think that you know, there’s a quote that I love. Albert Einstein said, not everything that could be counted counts and not everything that counts can be counted. And I think he was probably talking about Instagram and TikTok when he said that
RV (09:22):
Yeah. And, and I think, you know, I if you just have ask yourself the sobering question, do I spend more of my time thinking about wishing for praying for more people to find me? Or do I spend more of my time thinking about wishing about praying about how do I serve the people who are already in front of me? I have to go embarrassingly. I go, oh my gosh, I am, I am missing the mark badly. In Adley. And I think your your, your book highlighted that in a way. So you, you, you just touched on kind of the premise of the book. The way that you become a super, you make someone a super fan is to connect your story to their story. And this is another part that hit me hard actually, because so super is an acronym and we walk through the, we walk through the steps and the s is story, right?
RV (10:16):
So we start, we start with our story. And I struggle with this because I go, why does my story matter? It feels like starting with my story feels vain, it feels arrogant, it feels self-centered. And I’m going, why don’t I just start with like, what’s in it for them? And you know, what, what do I provide? And I think your book really hit me hard in this area. So can you talk about what it means to create to, to, to, to share, start with your story, and specifically why starting there is not vain and arrogant and, you know, self-centered?
BH (10:59):
Absolutely. Well, when I say start with your story, I don’t mean lead with your story. I mean, everything has to originate from you because we are living in an experienced economy. It has never been easier for any competitor to come in and usurp anyone in any category, right? So if you are competing on commodity things, I’m the cheapest. I’m the fastest, I’m the closest to your home. I’ve been around the longest. It is very easy for someone to displace you. So when I say start with your story, what I mean is what is your superpower? What’s your origin story? What makes you better than everyone else? And you know, I’m always, I’m, I, I’m always shocked when I talk to people and I say, why are you the absolute best choice to serve your prospects and customers? And they stare at me blankly or they say something that every single one of their competitors would also say, Uhhuh, that there is absolutely no proof behind.
BH (11:53):
And what I always say back to them, because this is sort of the idea of apathy and action is, well, if you can’t tell me why you’re the best, how in the world is a prospect ever gonna be able to figure it out? If you can’t even articulate to me clearly why I should care, then how am I ever going to care? So that is what I mean when I say start with your story, not making it about you. Throughout the book, I, I try to say again and again, this is all about customer centricity. This is all about showing up to serve people, but it’s kind of like, you know, we’re recording this. I’m at the airport for anybody who is watching it, this beautiful background behind me is a B n A conference room. Like when you’re on the airplane and they say you’ve gotta put your mask on first before you assist the people with you, because you’ve gotta, like, you’ve gotta do you, you’ve gotta make sure you’re taking care of you. And it’s kind of the same thing when I say start with your story, is you can’t expect people to sign up to say, I am a super fan of this person, or I am a super fan of this offering. If you yourself haven’t done the work to say, why do I deserve a super fan? What am I doing that is better than what my competitors are doing so that I can help serve these customers and make their life better in some way?
RV (13:02):
Ah-Huh
RV (14:03):
I want a New York Times bestselling logo on my book. And it’s like, what actually gives me the credibility is not just that we’ve done that, that we’ve helped other people do it. It’s that I wanted it so badly and I felt so far away and I felt like it was impossible. And it, it’s like, it’s the story and I never tell that story. I talk about, oh, my credentials and our exper you know, like the, the pe the clients we’ve worked with, which I don’t think is bad, but I go, I think I’m underutilizing the human part of my story a bit to go, that’s what really care they care about. Cuz other people would say that too. Well, I’ve got, I’ve got a hundred clients and I’ve helped clients do this and that and, and blah blah blah, blah blah. But there’s this emotional human bond that happens from the origin story. And I’m going, I don’t even have the origin story on my website. We don’t even have the origin story on brand builders group. And I would never even think to put it there, cuz I would think of that as like not useful to the customer un until you told me it was
BH (15:15):
Well. And it, and it is so useful. And that’s, you know, we were connected through a mutual friend John Roland. Yeah. And John Roland didn’t say to me, oh, meet this friend of mine who was like, helped a bunch of other people like you. He said, you’ve gotta meet my friends, Rory and aj. And he told me about who you are as people and, and what your origin story is and why he thinks you’re the best in the world. And I know this is something that a lot of business owners struggle with as they’re scaling because they think, well, if I tell my story then clients are only gonna wanna work with me. They’re not gonna wanna work with anybody else. Sure. But, you know, and, and there there is like a murky middle where sometimes that is true. Everybody feels those growing pains of, you know, I had the people who are used to me and now I’ve gotta tell them that they’re, they’re not gonna get as much as my time cuz the business is growing and changing.
BH (16:04):
And that’s something that I think every entrepreneur has been through. However, I would argue that telling your origin story makes it that much more important because now people are going to understand, okay, this is the person helming this company. This is the person who is not just making the decision of everyone they hire, but training them, making sure there’s an alignment, and then they’re gonna be curious about every single employee’s origin story and what attracted them to come work for you, who you are as a leader, how that plays out into everything that you’re doing. So I think that most people mis or, or underutilized misuse or under util underused their own personal origin stories because of everything you said a few minutes ago. It can feel arrogant, it can feel self-serving, it can feel very, you know, youth centric. But in reality, we learn best when we hear stories.
BH (16:56):
Our brains are hardwired to react to stories much more so than facts. I mean, there’s every single research study that’s ever looked at it has said yes, people believe stories more than facts and figures. And we trust them more, we remember them better, and that’s why they’re so effective. And when we show up and we talk about the results, or we talk about, you know, the past work or the past clients, people don’t feel that emotionally. Like very few people ever like got teary eyed or thought me too, over a spreadsheet or like a list of stats and figures. But when you can tell a story, people are like, I felt that, I felt that in my gut when I was walking through the airport and wanted that, or I felt that in my gut when I was a kid. And I said, wow, this is my calling.
BH (17:39):
So it’s so important. And in my book I talk about some of the tools that people can use, some of the exercises to really step outside of yourself and look at your story through the eyes of your customer to say, what should I be talking about? How am I able to craft this narrative of who I am and where I’ve been in a way that makes it very clear to my target customers that I can help them because I used to be right where they are now. I used to be sitting right where they were sitting
RV (18:06):
And yeah. And that, and that’s the thing, it’s not, it’s not just telling your story, it’s telling your story in a way that it, it is useful for the customer because they put themselves in the story and they go, oh my gosh, you’ve been through what I’m going through. And and I, you know, and I, and I think that’s the game changer because it’s relatability and it’s credibility and it’s all about that. Which kind of leads to the u I guess in, in the, in the super framework. So to walk us through what u’s all about.
BH (18:37):
Yeah. So in the book I say that each of these are kind of like nesting dolls, all five letters of the super framework build on the one before. And the u is understand your customer story. So I said before, super fans are created where those two worlds collide your story and theirs. And another reason that it’s helpful to start with your own story is because when you do that, you can better understand your customer story. Because when you think about who you are, what your origin story is, it helps you better understand what that customer or prospect is struggling with, what transformation that they’re looking to undergo that maybe you’ve already gone through, what reservations they might have, what they might be even unaware that they’re feeling, because it’s so deep down. So really getting clarity on your story positions you in a way to understand your customer story in a way that’s much deeper than a lot of people wanna go. And, you know, in the book, I tell the story and I’m curious, Rory, do you remember the first time you saw a teacher outside of school?
RV (19:35):
Oh yeah. I mean I, yes I do. I vividly remember that.
BH (19:38):
Yeah. It, and it did it just freak you out? Like what was your experience?
RV (19:43):
Well for this particular was one of, one of my favorite teachers. And I, I saw her at Buka Depo, like downtown, like, like 40 minutes away from where I went to high school. And it, it was, it just freaked me out. Like it just, it was like, oh, this is a completely different person. And never had dawned on me that like, this person had a completely separate life with like, friends and out out anything outside of like, the classroom.
BH (20:08):
Yeah. Well, and it’s, it’s so funny. I remember I was in first grade, the first time I saw a teacher, Ms. Beatie at the grocery store, and I was like, oh my gosh. Like, they let her leave school. And it was that same thing, that realization of like, oh, this is an actual person that has all of those things. And when I talk about understanding your customer story, one of the sort of jokes I tell in the book is a lot of people never go deeper than we all went when we were kids. You looked at a teacher and saw someone who was there to like, you know, teach you math or science for, you know, a couple hours a day or whatever it is. But if you look at your customers and say, this is a fully developed person with like a very full life who has goals, who has dreams, who has a history, who has people who people who love them, not only does that give you more empathy in the way that you think about and get to know your customer, but it also gives you more understanding about how your authority can, can matter to them, can help them.
BH (21:02):
So what I, the reason that I, I make the second step in this framework, getting to really, truly understand your customer is because a lot of people don’t ever do that work or they do it like, just on the surface. So in the book I talk about, you know, really getting, getting clear on the types of questions that matter, the types of information that are gonna help you think more critically and teach your team to serve even deeper when it comes to showing up for your customers and your future customers, or your followers and your future followers.
RV (21:33):
Yeah. Yeah. And I, and I think you know, another great marketing strategy, you know, I, I said that before about it’s a transform life. The other, another great marketing strategy is to care, is to like care about your customers and the more you like, spend time thinking about them and, and acknowledging I think who they are in real life and understanding it. And, and yeah, you’re, it’s, it’s, it’s ironic that when you start with your story, it forces you to kind of ask that question because you go, how does this story apply to them? And then it puts you in the place of thinking about where are they now? Like where, where are they now? And how can I share how I have been there and, and, and create that connection. And so you really develop a lot of passion and love and affinity and, and appreciation just for who your prospect is.
RV (22:24):
And just like, there’s such an authentic connection that I feel like suddenly it shows up in your marketing, whether, whether it’s a podcast episode or whether it’s a video or it’s, it’s even an advertisement or a website as they go, they feel that, they feel that, like, you actually give a crap about me. You actually know something about what it’s like to be me. And I think, I think that’s super powerful. So what about the p Okay, so s so start with your story. Understand the customer story. The p this is, this is, this one’s clutch
BH (22:58):
Personalized. Mm. So p is personalized and you know, again, there’s all kinds of stats and, and, and figures. And McKenzie study just came out a, a couple weeks ago that said 71% of customers now expect personalization from everyone they give money to. So they don’t wanna be treated like just another customer, just another number, just another order. So in the book I talk about the need to balance the high tech with the high touch. Hmm. So what can you automate? What can you systematize, what can you get set up to help drive personal interactions at scale? While also, and this is the key part, freeing up more of your team’s time or your own time to find opportunities to do those high-touch things that can’t be automated. Because it’s all about the human attention, the human interaction being in tune to someone’s need to show up for them in a way that’s going to exceed their expectations.
RV (23:56):
Mm-Hmm.
BH (24:14):
People who like, are ready to fight me over that. Yes, that is a very polarizing opinion, but I’m like, you would never like Rory, we’re friends. I would never buy you a gift and write my name on the bottom of it to be like, just wanna make sure when you’re using this cooler out by your pool, you don’t forget it’s from me. Like, we would never do that in real life. And yet in business people are like, how many logos can I slap on this? What can I do? Which is fine. Like, I’m not anti swag. I just believe that it has a place and that place is, has an ad, not a gift.
RV (24:44):
Right? And it’s not, it doesn’t make anyone feel special when, I mean, the, the, the way, the another extreme example of it, I was like, imagine if I sent you a picture of me
BH (26:14):
Yeah. That’s, I a hundred percent agree with that. And it’s looking for ways, like, as you said, let’s see somebody who’s listening to this and you are you work in real estate a way to make a decision once and scale. It might be every time I sell someone a new home, I’m going to get them a welcome mat with a picture of their family, or I’m going to get them a garden flag with a picture of their family, or I’m going to take their listing photo and turn it into a puzzle for them. And knowing that you have a vendor who can do those things very easily and have someone on your team who knows, like, okay, before closing day, I’ve gotta go on every family’s Facebook page and like, pull a picture that I really love and get that made into a like, welcome to your new home at a b c Apple Street or, you know, 1 23 Apple Street, whatever to create that for them. So there still oftentimes is, is a human element involved, but you’re, what you’re doing is you are eliminating that process of, ugh, let me think about exactly what to do for this person and how I’m gonna make it. Because you already made the decision, you made one decision that you can repeat a thousand times instead of making a thousand individual decisions.
RV (27:23):
Yeah, yeah. Another thing is, I mean, anything with their family seems like low-hanging fruit there mm-hmm.
BH (28:30):
Absolutely. It’s the fact that they took the time to do it. And you know, we both know like when you get something that Jasper or Leah made for you, it’s not about, you know, how expensive that thing is. It’s, wow, I’m going to love this and keep it forever because my kids made it for me and they put love into it. So it’s that idea of showing someone that you spent time thinking about them, you spent time, you gave them the gift of your attention and your care and whatever it is that, that, that materialized into in the form of a gift.
RV (28:59):
Totally. Totally. So I know that, I know you’ve got multiple mini phases in this, and again, y’all, the, so the book’s called Creating Super Fans Brittany Hodak, of course is who we’re talking to here. The the e is another one that is simple, not easy but another like game changing thing that you go, man, if you adopt this into your culture, it works. Like this actually works. So what’s, walk us through the e
BH (29:28):
Yeah, all of these are simple, not easy. And that’s, and that’s why I wanted to put them in a framework that would be easy to remember. You know, the idea of, oh, being super, you know, it sounds like something you could almost easily dismiss, but if you do these things consistently, they absolutely will lead to huge growth. You will have more earned revenue, you will have more earned customers, you’ll have people who are coming back more quickly and spending more money with you. The e stands for exceed expectations. And this is probably my favorite pillar in the book just because I’m so passionate about something that I call intentional experience design, which is really looking at every single touchpoint through the eyes of your customers and saying, is this making their experience better, worse, or not having an impact on it? And many of our experiences as customers are what I call net neutrals.
BH (30:16):
They’re like, nothing burgers, we forget about them as soon as we encounter them. And then occasionally there are those net negatives that are annoying or, you know, cause us to, you know, grumble a little bit. And then very, very rarely there are those positive things. What I encourage people to do is to, you know, using the, the system that I lay on in the book to look at every interaction and teach everyone on your team that they are the chief experience officer. They are the ones who can turn those neutral interactions into positive ones by using intentionality, by using that customer centricity to say, how can I elevate this otherwise like, forgettable moment into something that’s going to be meaningful? How can I show someone that we care more by going a little bit above and beyond? And if you can do that, not only are you like quite literally making the world a better place because you’re improving people’s days, their, you know, their minutes, their, their interactions, but you’re also giving people those things that are friend j bear calls talk triggers.
BH (31:18):
You’re giving somebody something that they want to tell somebody about, whether that’s online or inline at the grocery store. You’re not gonna believe what this person on the phone just did, or you’re not gonna believe how, you know, this person did this thing that just helped me. And it’s, and it can be, it’s almost always the little things like, this doesn’t have to be big grand gestures. It’s, you know, a week ago I had a bunch of balloons at Publix, so it was my husband’s birthday party and the, the person who was working the door said, here, let me help you out to your car with those. And I said, no, no, no, it’s okay. And he said, no, I, I know a trick. I’ve loaded balloons a lot, I’m gonna, I’m gonna help you make sure that you, that you get these in. And the trick, by the way was to put a piece of paper on top of the balloon and then that they, like, there’s like less static and they go in. But so those interesting little things that you can do to exceed someone’s expectation in the moment and training everyone on your team to look for those opportunities to exceed their expectations.
RV (32:13):
Mm-Hmm.
BH (33:18):
Yeah, so that’s a great question. A lot of it is planning ahead so that you can be more present in the moment to look for those little things. Hmm. Of, you know, oh, they’ve got a kid with them, I’m gonna offer them a sticker. Or they’ve got, they’ve got a lot of bags, I’m gonna make sure somebody’s helping them carry them like the, the, the human things. In the book I talk about this idea of intentional experience design, which is how do I bring more intentionality to every part of the experience? Because one of the, one of the things that I talk about again and again in this book is your customers are going to have expectations that constantly rise because they’re not just comparing their experience working with you to the best experience they’ve had with your competitors. They’re comparing it to the best experiences you’ve had anywhere.
BH (34:07):
So you need to constantly be looking at even your experiences that you have as a customer with, with other parties around you to say, how can I make this better? And this is not in the book cuz it just happened a few weeks ago, but we were out at a Mexican restaurant after a baseball game one day and the kids were hungry because it was a little bit late. And I was like, oh, we’ll just go to a Mexican restaurant so we can like, feed them fast. They’ll at least be chip and salsa. And the waitress came to take our order and Cato, my five and a half year old said, excuse me, did you know a lot of restaurants have apps and if you had an app, we could have ordered our tacos on the way here and you could bring me tacos right now
BH (34:43):
And like, he wasn’t even trying to be a jerk, he was just like, it was in his mind it was like so inefficient that he’s like, why do you have to have a person come ask me what I want to eat? Like someone has already solved this problem. So knowing that your customer expect your customer’s expectations are always going to be getting higher. So looking in that moment, it’s, it’s about how can I serve them quicker? How can I serve them in a way that goes above and beyond their expectations? Like I know I always when I check into a hotel, I notice when somebody goes above and beyond, obviously there’s a couple brands who give you cookies, but if you go to a Margaritaville resort, they offer you a rum punch. A lot of times when you check into a Marriott resort, they have like a wheel that you can spin if you’re a part of the Bonvoy club to like earn bonus points. So just those little touchpoints a above and beyond of am I offering someone a water? Am I offering someone a piece of candy? Am I showing them that I’m happy to have them here? And I don’t think of them as just another customer. I think of them as a person whose life I can improve because we’re, you know, connected in this moment.
RV (35:45):
Yeah. And, and you know, I think you nailed it with it’s going, how do I stay? You have to be, the real magic is being present in the moment to be going, what can I do to make this moment better? Like, magical for them versus scrambling to just meet their expectations or because your brain is off somewhere else, cuz something else fell apart. So like a lot of it is is caught up in, in, in the, the planning. So Brittany, I know we, I know we have the r which, you know, we can wrap up quickly, but before we do that, where do you want people to go if they want to connect with you and learn more what you’re about and you know, get the book, et cetera?
BH (36:27):
Well, my website is britney hodak.com and I hope everyone checks out the book. It’s available everywhere books are sold, including on Amazon as a hard cover and an audiobook and an ebook. But if you go to Britney hodak.song, excuse me, my ho my own name is hard for me to say, apparently if you go to britney hodak.com/gift, you can download the first four chapters of the book totally free because I want everyone to get the framework that they can use to start creating super fans in their own personal brand and business right now. So britney hodak.com/gift.
RV (37:03):
Cool. Very, very cool. Well send us out here. What about the r Yeah, yeah, tell us about the r We don’t, we, we don’t wanna leave everybody hanging too much, but you know, so you got start with so, so super, the acronym, start with your story, understand your customer story, personalize, exceed expectations, and
BH (37:25):
Repeat,
RV (37:26):
Repeat,
BH (37:27):
Repeat. That’s it. I wish customer actually, I I don’t wish customer experience will set it and forget it. I know a lot of people do. I actually love the idea of constantly looking for ways to exceed expectations. But in the fifth pillar, I talk all about the systems and processes that you can use. Another great, great quote, this one’s from Elizabeth Arden. You know, sorry, I know you’re, you’re very Mary Kay loyal, but this is a good quote. Regardless of your preference for, for makeup brands, Elizabeth Arden said, repetition makes reputation and reputation makes customers. So it’s about showing up and doing this again and again, transaction after transaction, interaction after interaction because you become what you do.
RV (38:09):
Yeah, yeah. Which, you know, the other surprising bonus of this is you go, oh, it’s not even five steps, it’s four steps, and then I just do ’em over and over again.
BH (38:19):
It is, it’s 20% easier than I promise. So hopefully I exceed your expectations with four things to remember instead of five. Yeah.
RV (38:26):
Well, and frankly, like, if you get the story part right and you really understand who your customer is, and then you repeat a lot of this is about personalizing and exceeding expectations, and you go, all right, those are like two things that I gotta do is, is like, just go, how do I set everything up to be in this moment serving on people, loving on them at a level that’s higher than what they’re used to seeing? And what a great way to be an awesome person and you know, create superfans and drive and make more income in the process. So Brittany, you’re the best. Thank you so much for this friend. Everybody go get the book Creating Superfans. I’m a, I’m a huge believer. I’m a huge fan. We make our whole company read it, adopting it as part of our culture. It’s a big part of, of what we see as the next level for us at, at Brand Milds Group. And anyways, friend, keep kicking butt out there. We’re cheering for you.
BH (39:17):
Thanks buddy. I appreciate it. I’ll talk to you soon.