Ep 36: The Marriage of Music and Business with Brett Kissel
RV: (01:04)
It is a wonderful honor to introduce you to one of my newer friends. Brett Kissel is an amazing young man. He actually was recently named male artist of the year by the Canadian country music awards. And he is in his twenties, in his late twenties and is just a rising superstar internationally. He actually won an award from the worldwide radio summit in Hollywood that named him international artist of the year, which was previously given to people like Adele and ed Sheeran and Drake. He has won two Junos. He’s won 12 CCMS Canadian country music awards. He’s got an honor from the from Canada’s walk of fame six times Western Canadian music awards and he’s just amazing. He’s toured with Garth Brooks. He’s the only Canadian to ever do that. He’s a fifth generation Albertan and he just is a total family guy, has built his following from nothing when he was a kid. And I thought it would just be awesome to kinda hear some of his stories and philosophies about how he’s done that. So Brett, welcome to the show.
BK: (02:16)
Well, thank you very much Rory for for having me. What a glowing introduction. I don’t think there’s any way I can actually live up to all that stuff because open the awards, well the circuit and the awards season, a lot of that even has to do with, you know, some, some luck and, and stuff like that. But I’m very thankful that I get an opportunity to chat with you and learn from.
RV: (02:41)
Yeah. Well I’d love to hear early on, how did you start? Like at what age did you start performing and start doing concerts and just I mean I think you’re still very, very much on the rise, but you are certainly have broken through the mainstream in Canada now moving into the U S you know, we met you live here in Nashville, we got a chance to work with you cause we do, you know, you some of your management team, but like you’ve been at this for a while and I would love for people just to kind of hear the story of how you got started doing music and, and you know more than that just building your fan base.
BK: (03:22)
Well, well yeah of course. I mean, my, my, my journey in, in country music I think is very similar to a lot of others, but I’ve always related my career to that of athletes and, and guys in sports. You know what, I, I got my guitar when I was young. It’s like a kid hockey stick or a baseball bat, you know, when you’re five or six years old and you really take a liking to it. I was playing hockey as a little kid up in Canada. Every idiot my grandmother, she said that she saw music in me and so she got me a guitar. That guitar was a big, big thing to get because I immediately stopped sports and I just focused on music and nobody else in my family ever played music. Nobody’s saying nobody did anything. So the fact that this was really unique, I think to my family and to my extended family too.
BK: (04:15)
So I had that great support system and it was a thing led to enough. I started playing around family and then, you know, one family member, maybe they know somebody who’s got a customer appreciation at the local Ford dealer in town. So I go and I sing a couple songs as a seven year old there. I mean I didn’t know what I was doing, I just didn’t ever have fear of the stage, I guess then you know, somebody’s need there and and says, why don’t you come and play this rodeo in the nearby town and play a couple songs there. So I’m nine years old and I’m playing songs there and now I’m 11 and people are skewed, make a recording because we buy it. So I made my first cassette tape locally with a guy who’s a producer and we made like 500 copies and my parents and I thought we will never be able to give away 500 copies and yellow eggs at them.
BK: (05:11)
So we sold them. I mean people were buying it cause I was a little kid, like every grandma and grandpa was supporting this little boy and a cowboy hat, but I’ve a hundred cassettes, new record. And then, and then before we knew it, we’re opening up a savings account and a checking account and a business account for me because I’m making 500 bucks, 1000 bucks. And, and, and from there, you know, I really just started to learn how to, how to save money and reinvest into myself. And at that time, I’m like 12 years old and I got nominated for a Canadian country music award. And that, that took me from kind of a regional act to an act. And to get that national exposure on TV up in Canada was very special. And from there into my teens, the minute I graduated high school, I knew this was all I’d ever wanted to do.
BK: (06:02)
And this is all I thought I ever really could do. And it’s all I needed to do. So I’m true. We built a business and weren’t necessarily country artists or performers, but were businessmen, business women who would teach me a lot of those great things. And so you know, I, this a a business music was my business and I’m very thankful that I was able to then take those lessons that I learned as a kid and as a teenage bring that energy down to Nashville, which I’ve done for the past 10 years or about eight years living in music city and it’s been a hell of awry.
RV: (06:41)
[Inaudible] Well, and so, so talk to me about like reputation in general and I’m just curious about what your thoughts are on, on the word reputation. Like what is your definition of it? What are your philosophies about one, why do you think it matters sort of in the music business and beyond that just sorta like how do you go about establishing one
BK: (07:05)
Man that, that is such a great question, Rory. And, and reputation is everything in business no matter what. And, and I’ve seen it firsthand for myself because I know I’m not the best singer on the best songwriter or guitar player or entertainer, but I try my very best to develop a brand that’s based on reputation, a good buy. And the thing about it is that people, the fans, and I’m one of them to first and foremost, I’m a fan of country music. I’m a fan of certain brands and if you’ve got a good reputation, you want to see those people or those brands when, now Garth Brooks for an example has won everything. Like Garth Brooks is like, Elvis is like the Beatles. It’s like, I mean he will go down in history as if people were, we’ll use them like, you know, talk about it like you talk about shed spear or Beethoven or for stuff like that.
BK: (08:02)
It because he’s got an incredible reputation whether you love it, go, not have his voice or not, you know, there is an amazing guy and you want to see guys like that win. And it’s interesting because as good of a reputation on can, one hopes to build, if you’ve got a bad reputation that that even spreads like wildfire even further. So it’s important thing that you, a bad rap because it’s so hard to come back from that. I don’t know. I don’t know. Some of these celebrities and their stories are as to why, you know, things went up for them. I’m not, I’m not here to judge. All I’m here is to state the facts that a celebrity with an incredible reputation is few and far between the, you know, to find but a celebrity with a bad reputation or bad press or bad things. I isn’t it crazy how we hear about those stories even more so, so, and they, if that said, protecting your reputation and working to make sure that you’ve got a good one and something that’s very solid so that people will continue to support you and want to see you win, that’s kind of the name of the game.
RV: (09:14)
[Inaudible] Yeah, I, well, I love that and I think Garth is a great example of that. Of course. Aja is a huge Garth fan. We got to see him about a year ago and that was, that was incredible. I think he lives up to all the things that you’re talking about. Now. I want to talk about social media for a second and, and just kind of nurturing a fan base. And how have you done that or are there, are there, are there things that you’ve done that you feel like have worked for building your reputation off the stage? Cause clearly it’s like, you know, performing when you’re on stage is what it’s all about. You’re an amazing singer, amazing songwriter. We’ve, we’ve had your music playing around the house a lot lately and just you know, that is certainly one part of it, right? Is, is the performance. But what are some of the things that you do behind the scenes that maybe people either don’t know about or don’t see or they sh they should be doing if they’re wanting to try to like build the kind of engaged fan base that you’ve been able to create?
BK: (10:23)
Well, you know what the, the first thing that I’ll say, Rory, is that everybody has a different perspective on social media. And you know what? Well, what works for me may work for a, I dunno, this artist or that person and what works for Gary V. May not work for Joe Rogan. What works for Joe doesn’t work for you. And we’ve all got our different paths. But for me, I’ve found great success in being very real in showing vulnerable parts of, of my life. And I’ve honestly found it to be therapeutic, to not have to put on a show for my fans or on in Facebook or Twitter. When people follow me, they’re truly getting a real life inside look at I am and what I’m doing. And if that’s interesting, if you don’t find it interesting, that’s fine. You don’t, you don’t need to engage or anything.
BK: (11:19)
But I’m really happy that I can be myself and that’s where I post happiness and social media because like I said, it can be therapeutic to, to vent and to get things out and maybe get some advice from other people or from others. But you know what, I’m, I’m a performer on the stage and that’s for 90 minutes of my day. The other 22 and a half hours. I’m a husband. I’ve got three beautiful kids, two daughters and a and a and a son, Mila. My oldest daughter, she’s three. Aria is next in line. She’s two. And then Leo, our son, he’s six months old. So we’re in the heart of the chaos. And I think it’s very relatable because I’m no, every other family who’s going through the ups and the downs of balancing career and life and the beautiful chaos that is being a father and a young parent.
BK: (12:15)
When I show that side, I mean, you know it to Rory. I mean, it’s like that’s, that’s real life and people, people want to see real life. So that’s where I get the most engagement is, you know what’s interesting is that my, my record label early on said, Hey, you know what? This is our strategy with you. And I said, okay, hit me. What is it? Think you don’t wear the wedding ring so you can look available. Let’s not talk about your family too much. You pop your 19. Everybody’s really trying to discover themselves in their twenties into their thirties. So let’s, let’s keep you that way so that you’re relatable. And honestly, I, from the, from the minute one ice and I, we said, and I’m going to swear here, but I said bullshit. Like no way. This is who I am. This is what I do. I’m proudly married and everything like that. And if you want to go on just analytics, I will get twice or three times the likes of a picture of me as a stressed out dad with pancake batter all over my tee shirt hanging upside down on my shoulders. Then I will in front of 30,000 people opening for Garth Brooks at a, at, at a festival. People are like, okay, that’s cool, but this is relatable. So that’s kind of my stance on how I do my socials.
RV: (13:32)
I love that. I think that’s that and that it’s very fitting with your brand. I mean you’re, you are just very relatable and real and, and, and real life. So one of the things that I think you’ve also done really well, and I think, you know, we have a brand builders group. We don’t work with a ton of musicians, but it seems like more and more we’re getting into the space and we really have a heart for musicians because it’s, it can, it can, it’s such a, can be such a tough road financially. And even when you make it, it’s like you’re gone all the time performing. And so we have a real passion to try to help musicians create some monetary streams that don’t require them to like be out on the road all the time. Right. And you guys have done a a good job of this and I know, I know you’re working on other, other revenue streams and things, but I think you guys are very forward thinking in terms of how you do it.
RV: (14:27)
And one of the things that I think you’ve done really well so far is just like these brand deals and you’ve been able to kind of get some brand deals. You’ve been able to create longterm relationships there. And I wondered if you could just share a little bit about how, what is like, what exactly is a brand deal? How do you get them? Like, how do you find people, how do you charge, you know, what do you do? What do you deliver? Like just all of that cause that, that feels like a very immediate, immediately monetized double stream, if you will, for, for musicians.
BK: (15:11)
Well, yeah, I mean [inaudible] it really is and it’s such a, an interesting world we live in right now where social media is the new King now. It’s been King for a while, but a lot of companies are really are really figuring that out and allocating their investment dollars, fitting in public lists, city influencers and people on social media as opposed to the return on TV, which is ever changing a radio, which in a lot of ways is you know, is, is a fat that’s, you know, trying real hard to rebrand. And it’s still very important in country music. But in some areas it’s, it’s dying. In print, we all know is dead. So with all people are living on their phones, okay, we know this. So what does that mean for me? I’m very passionate about a number of products. And I remember my wife and I, we sat down and we thought to ourselves, what kind of things do we use in our lives that make our lives easier?
BK: (16:06)
Is it this is it this? What, what, what do you like to drink? What do we like to eat? Where do we like to go? What do we like to wear? It’s all of these things. And we, we took an approach because she’s a, an influencer in her own right. And we took an approach about genuinely wanting to talk about brands that we love. That was, that was priority number one because there’s authenticity there. That I would say if I, if I stopped and this conversation ended right now, if you are associated with brands that you’re authentically connected to, that’s a win win for both. That’s where we can extract money as the influencer and as the spokespeople for that brand. And that’s where the brand is going to win because you talking about something that they’re not reading from a script and they’re able to craft a message that is unique and doesn’t look like a sales job because that’s today’s.
BK: (17:01)
You can see, of course we need hashtag ad on everything for, you know, the whatever, whatever rules we got to follow. But if I’m talking thing, I don’t know anything about people are going to see through that and it’s going to look bad. So authenticity is number one and when you’ve got something off authentic, you can take it to step two, which is truly try to monetize and extract as much value as you can from the company because we know that we’re going to be more effort and a bigger return on their investment of sponsorship into us. Everything that I do, Rory isn’t cut and paste. It, it’s, every company has different needs and different wants. Some of them are a lot more about social media, some of them a lot more about what I’m going to say from the stage.
BK: (17:52)
And some of them are a lot more about the return is what they’re going to get from clients and entertaining important customers. For example, it’s very difficult for me to craft a message for an oil company in Northern Alberta. You know, on social media, they’re, they don’t care about that. But what they do want to do is they want to wine and dine certain clients to get the next big project or, or something like that to, to come here. Sometimes they need to educate me on their big environmental you know, changes that they’re making and they need somebody like myself to craft a message because energy in Alberta is such a hot topic for the rest of the world. And then sometimes you’ve got a juice company, Oasis juice who just want to be associated with families and we’re a great growing family.
BK: (18:38)
Then you’ve got a company like Mark two or exclusively intrude other denim company there. You know, they’re like a, they’re a store of everything from boots. It’s an apparel company and they want somebody who grew up on a farm and somebody who’s a busy douse, we can wear these on stage. It all fits. So what I do for this company is different from what I do with the vehicle company. And you truly make it unique. It’s, and then you can kind of craft a dollar amount to get from them at that point once you have that meeting.
RV: (19:10)
And so do you, how do you, like what, okay, so I love that. So I’d love the authenticity element. I love the idea of, of promoting the stuff that you actually use every day and you can speak intelligently about, right. What do you, how do you get them? Do you just like email the company website or call them or like go to their headquarters and walk in the door? Like what, what do you do to kind of open that conversation? I mean, you’re, I guess, you know, your stage, your name carries a lot of weight and your reputation, particularly in like Canada in certain circles, but, but did they find, did they all reach out to you or do you find them,
BK: (19:54)
So there’s a bunch of different ways that, that this happens. You know, what before my name had had any relevance in Canada, it was cold call and it was a, it was a meeting. It’s all about connections. You try to find someone who knows somebody. It’s basic sales. I mean, you can watch that on, on YouTube. You can see a fit, you know, it’s literally, it’s just basic salesmanship. So when I was 16, I got my driver’s license in my home province and I felt that there was a market of new drivers like me that were going to be buying their first vehicle. So who were they going to buy it from? Were they going to get a used vehicle where they’re going to buy brand new? Well, I found a company that had ills and you, it was called driving and it was based in Edmonton.
BK: (20:50)
My, my, our Capitol city two hours away, so I’d cold called them. Oh, 16 years old, asked if I could speak with the CEO. He wasn’t available. So I spoke with the marketing director and I asked if I could have a meeting, went in with my dad. I drove to town or into the city. You know, the next week, and I had this, like this presentation lined up. I, I, I remember doing it in school. Figuring out how to do a presentation. It was like a special project. So a beautiful do a Tang and everything I was going to do. And I said, if you give me a deal on a vehicle, I’ll be able to take this to my network of friends and other people like me. This is in 2006. So this was before Facebook was big, but before anything, and I said, if, if, if you’ll do this, I will try my very best to give as many vehicles and at least give them make make driving force be their first call.
BK: (21:46)
And it’s up to your sales people to deliver. I cannot guarantee you I’m going to sell vehicles, but I will do my very best. Well, it may or something, but he’s like, I’ll tell you what Chad, we’re just going to give you a truck. Like, Oh my God. He’s like, you believe in me. This is great. If, and then you know, you’re an artist. So if you can do a couple of gigs for us a year, how much do you or do you charge for your gigs? I’m like, well, if it’s me and my guitar, it’s $2,500 if it’s me and my band, it’s 7,000 and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It’s like, well, I need three shows at 7,000 that’s $21,000 all ours. And then I wasn’t dollars back and value and basically then we’re going to give you this brand new 2006 GMC three quarter time. So I drove
BK: (22:37)
And now they send me into the city of Edmonton to meet with the mayor and as well as the CEO of the company to get higher releasing of, you know, 250 citywide vehicles. They’re the ones who send me up to Fort McMurray, Alberta to Suncor or this whatever oil company that need no 290 lease vehicles. So instead of the CEO brokering the deal, they send me in for, I don’t know, they call it razzle-dazzle. Like, seriously, I love that stuff. And now I’m a paid employee of the company and I’ve been with them. I’m 29. I’ve been with them for 13 years and I started as a phone call when you’re sick, who says you can’t do it? Blah, blah blah. Yeah, you can’t. Now my name carries weight. So now my manager or my assistant can just call up juice company and say, Hey, we’d like to make this work. Let’s sit down, let’s meet, you know, next time Brett’s in Montreal, we’re going to try and figure out a time to meet. So now it’s easier. But anybody says that it’s so tough. It is tough. I get it. But you can do it. I love that. Anyone who says it’s tough, it is tough but can do it. That’s a debt.
RV: (23:46)
That is so true. And so I want to hear about like so did you have a definitive moment where that, where that pivot happened? You know, we call it breaking through the wall or we have specifically she hands wall of where you’re like bouncing off the wall and being absorbed in the noise of the mainstream. But then you know, you sort of find your uniqueness and you create velocity and clarity and you, you break through the wall and then your life as a personal brand shifts from push to pull. And so now you know, like your story that you just shared a cold calling, that’s very much like a classic push story. Like you’re out there hustling, you know, networking cold call and talk in like doing whatever you’re doing, but then at some point it’s, it flips to pole, which is where it seems like you’re at now, right? Your manager or your assistant can kind of make the call. When did that moment happen for you? Or, or, or was there a specific moment or you know, like talk about that kind of like breakthrough point and you know, how did you notice it or how or, or, or, or when did you notice, or when did you notice it? Like I’d love to just kinda hear, like your perspective on that.
BK: (25:01)
Wilson and Rory at first, I honestly, I want to compliment you and to everybody who’s listening to this, I remember vividly one of my favorite parts of getting together with you to talk about the growth of my brand was when we talked about Shan’s wall, when we talked about that I was able to go back home and look, not physically look through my calendar, but remember important meetings and important times of my life where it was push, push, push and hustle and no return. And, and it was just, it was like I was beating my head up against the wall truly until you finally break through. And there were definitive moments. There wasn’t just one because there’s so many different aspects of my career. There’s even a way that you can put that into perspective for your own personal relationships where you’re working so hard to try and get something.
BK: (25:53)
But finally you make it through, you know, with your spouse or with your children. But when it comes to business and music, there were some really, really, really great times driving force. And that deal with me was a big moment on the entrepreneurial side for me and the sponsorships spoke to person side. I am kind of like the NASCAR guy of Canadian country music. I’ve got logos everywhere. I couldn’t be more proud of that. We know we can deliver, we know and we know the weekend we can give back to the communities and have so many things. It’s not conceded your worry. It’s not that like, Oh well I don’t want to pay for cowboy boots, let’s get them sponsor. It’s a lot deeper than that for me. But if you do want to think about it simply, well yeah, I mean why pay for this when someone can, you know, we can strike a deal.
BK: (26:45)
We can work together on this. So all I’m saying is that driving force moment was big for me on the spokesperson side. I realized I can do that at 16 and I’ve never stopped and I get turned down more times than people say yes. That’s the thing. You have a thick skin. Like I don’t care when people say no because I know I can go to somebody else. And somebody’s going to say yes one way or another real sudden. The spokesperson side that that breakthrough was in 2006 what May 27th I turned 16. I had a truck the first few, like literally five, six days later. So that was a big thing on the music side of things. It was the day that I finally got a legitimate manager in business. I was 20 years old and I’ve been doing everything locally by myself or it was me and my wife.
BK: (27:40)
We had local managers who were great. He didn’t have the connections nationally or internationally or specially in Nashville. I mean they could help book gigs for me, but that was just that the local rodeo in Calgary or Northern Alberta or Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, that wasn’t the NFR that I wanted to play. That wasn’t PBR, that wasn’t the big stuff. So I needed a real manager and I cold called a bunch of managers, but I called this one guy and I loved him the most based on seeing him at award shows. Louis O’Reilly was his, he was from Saskatchewan. He was a small town guy. He grew up on a farm. He was starting to work with a guy who was an agent named Jim Cressman, who is also a small town doc. Grew up on a farm. I’m like, these are my people. They’re going to get my story.
BK: (28:28)
And they’re building up their own businesses respectively and working with some of the biggest names in Canadian Adian country. So I cold called them, flew them out to a show. I saved up money so I could pay for their flights and even put them up first class and everything like that. Put them in the nicest hotel in town so I could really like wheel and deal them. And I got a great manager after that gig in Louie for agent, shortly after in Jim Cressman who you know. And those were the guys. Now my team went from one person to three and I’m talking three pitbulls and we could go and full world out to reviewers. We had a record deal, which was another big thing in Canada. Within a number of years we had awards, we had tours, we had everything. We stripped the team in place. So go, I’m sorry, I’m talking so, so much for right here. I’m just passionate about it. But I just love the path that I was able to,
RV: (29:26)
And I mean this is, this is great. This is exactly what I want. I wanted people to hear, because I think, you know, even like becoming an international music star is that for most people it’s like such a farfetched dream. They’re like, I don’t even know how to start. And you think, Oh well, you know, you come to Nashville and you play in the Bluebird cafe and you get discovered and then you’re Taylor Swift. And it’s like, that is such the wrong way to do it. Like, it’s like that maybe happens one in a million, but, but what I love is just your story of just relentless discipline, you know, taking the stairs to use our phrase from our first book and just doing the things that people weren’t willing to do and like, you know, playing the stages and doing the business side of it and then finding your way to the managers and, and, and that opening doors and just like one thing leading to the next, to the next to the next.
RV: (30:15)
And I love it right now because I think, you know, in the U S like you’re still breaking through and I think it’s, it’s, it’s going to be awesome, like 10 years from now for people to come back and listen to this interview and hear like your mentality and approach and you know, when you break through in the U S will be like, Whoa, where’d this guy come from? And yet it’s like you’ve been doing this since you’re 12 years old, like plan local car dealerships and rodeos and then kind of kind of working your way up. So one, one question. I do want to have, I, I got one last little question. In terms of music specifically, how important do you think it is for musicians to really build the business side of it and the business acumen? Like you know, you’ve been really focused on not only getting brand deals but also helping you, you know, you’re, even the way you talk, it’s like how can I get the most for my sponsors and how can I help them? Do you think that that’s, that’s like a necessary skill set for musicians to really make it this day or do you think you know, no, that’s more of just like an ancillary benefit that, you know, if you have it good. If not, it’s okay.
BK: (31:29)
Well, you know, it’s, it’s a very interesting thing because of course, I mean all I can really, you know, go on is my opinion on, on the matter in, for me, the business side, while you’re developing the artistic side, I believe it’s a very important marriage and it’s something that everybody needs to think about and work towards on a daily because you can’t have one without the other. If is there one that’s more important? I will say yes, it’s the art side. It’s that you can have marketing ideas in the world and try to reach out to for dealers that have $1 million sponsorship deal, it ain’t going to happen. If you’re not good or it ain’t gonna happen to hit song. So you need that side. But if you haven’t developed the business side to be ready for when the art happens in something, then truly you’re missing out on a great opportunity to have longevity in the business. And longevity comes from financial security on Jevity comes from a sponsorship and connections and you know, and, and great people that you can connect with around the world. So you got to develop your, that’s what matters. But I think it’s very, very important to have the beef side ready to go.
RV: (32:46)
[Inaudible] I love that. Well, and I know that’s why, you know, originally when Jim, cause we were working with Jim Cressman and he introduced this to you and like, even the fact that you’re working with us, it’s sort of like very much outside the norm of, of what musicians would would be doing. And it’s like, that’s why you’re doing it. It’s like you’re, you’re always forward thinking to, to be set up to sort of like to prepare yourself to receive, you know, as, as the future unfolds. And I just I really, really love that. Brett, where do you want people to go if they want to connect with you and learn more, either about your story or your music and just kinda like connect up with you?
BK: (33:26)
Well, thanks man. Well, I mean my favorite platform is, is Instagram. So you can just follow me, Brett Kissel. I can see if you want even a little bit more personal side of what life is really like following my wife to Cecelia. And then one of the greatest things is that, you know what, just come and see me at a show, visit my tour page on Brett kissel.com and I mean that’s kind of a really, really great way to see what I’m like on the stage. And then social media will show you exactly what I’m like off the stage. It’s a great life that we live traveling around playing music. And I, I feel very lucky to have the opportunity to have this conversation with you orient and not talk as much about music, but to talk truly about well the entrepreneurial spirit that us artists, a lot of us, so truly do have. So I thank you very much.
RV: (34:16)
Yeah. I mean this is, this has been wonderful man. I thank you so much for sharing your story. I just, I think it’s so inspiring as well as instructional and informative to hear. And I think the last thing I want to invite you to share with people’s, if there’s someone out there listening right now and let’s say that they, you know, they kind of have the big dream, whether it’s in music or not, but they are, they’re at that moment where they’re like hitting their head against the wall, kind of like you have been and they’re bumping up against that roadblock and they’re, you know, feeling like no one’s listening. No one’s paying attention. What would you, what would you say to that person right now?
BK: (34:58)
Well, I think the first thing is, is you got to look inside and you haven’t, if what you’re selling, what you’ve created, what you’re working towards and what you’re working on, whether that’s an invention, whether that’s your song writing, whether that’s you know, any type of entrepreneurial idea. Do you genuinely believe that it’s gonna that it’s gonna work? Cause if you do and you’ve got that heart and soul invested into it, well then that’s great. Then you can go to step two. Now you can always rework step one and make sure that what you’re doing is refined and unbeatable because then when you go out to step two, it’s just about continuing to work hard, hard work, pays off. It always has. It always will. You know what? Two of my biggest influences are people that I’ve never met, but I really hope to.
BK: (35:49)
One day one is dwarf Johnson with his drank and his perseverance, his incredible gratitude. But his work ethic and the other one is one of the softest entrepreneurs. She’s fierce and fiery, and that’s Dolly Parton who’s developed and built that in music and, and, and Edmond and parks. And so Dolly and, and the rock couldn’t be further from each other, like look at them. They couldn’t be further from each other. But do you know what they have in common? Work ethic? They are workers in the room. And I truly respect that because hard work pays off. And it’s something that you and I talked about, Rory, that has been neat for me out work, everyone. I know I’m not the most talented, but I know that I’ve got that farming background and it’s in my blood. The rock did it. Dolly Parton did it. I want to do it to outwork everybody. So that’s what everyone else needs to do. Well, someone else has been out or taken a bit of time off or a holiday or something like that. Work your way in and take that meeting and work till midnight. Do what you need to do out everybody if that.
RV: (37:08)
Well, there you have it. We’ll end on that note. Brett Kissel, ladies and gentlemen, go follow them on Instagram. We’ll put a link to his website, Brett kissel.com Brett, we wish you the very best my friend. We’re honored to be in your fan base and part of your truth. And we’re just, we’re committed to, to see you break through in here in the U S as you have in Canada and around the world. We know it’s coming brothers, so, so keep at it.
BK: (37:33)
Oh buddy. Thank you so much for this. I really appreciate it. Hi to your family. We’ll see you back in music city very soon.
Ep 31: The Most Important Relationship with Nick Santonastasso | Recap Episode
RV: (00:00)
Hey, welcome to this special recap edition of the influential personal brand podcast. It’s Rory Vaden here today all by myself. Normally joined by my wife and business partner, AJ Vaden who is also the CEO of Brand Builders group. And she is also the CEO of the Vaden Villa household, which has no shortage of things going on. So I’m rolling solo on this episode, which is great and fine by me actually because I loved this episode with Nick Santonastasso and I’m telling you, if you didn’t listen to the episode, first of all, if you just need a pick me up. Like go listen to this. Like listen to this guy. I mean this is a guy that was born with no legs, one arm and yet he’s a bodybuilder.
Like he is amazing. His attitude, his story, like so inspiring, so touching, so moving, so compelling. This is the kind of thing where I, I just, I love getting to do what I do because I go like beyond the learning that happens from interviewing the guests just to, to know somebody like Nick.
RV: (01:17)
And it really just puts things in perspective for me to go, you know what? Like I just, man, I’m a whiner about stuff. Like I have it so easy and I lose perspective so much on just trivial things. You know, to hear some of the challenges that he has had and that he has gone through and, and to just, you know, think about what does life look like and feel like every day.
With, you know, for someone that has no legs and, and, and yet, you know, in his eyes and, and many ways as evidenced by his life. It’s, it’s not something that holds him back whatsoever. He has, he has like all people have greatness turned this circumstance into confidence. And that was really the first thing I wanted to share with you. Right. So there’s recap editions. We give you the three, the three highlights, like our three main takeaways.
RV: (02:14)
And that was the first one was actually just to talk about confidence because even though that, yeah. And, and I think confidence is powerful because it’s, when you think of personal brand strategy, right, that’s what we do at Brand Builders Group. It’s like we teach you how to build and monetize your personal brand. People think of the tactical stuff, you know getting clear on your messaging, getting clear on your positioning, getting clear on your market can come clear on your model and I’m talking about yo copy and colors and your key note and your books and your content.
Like all these tactical things that we teach and we love teaching and we’re good at teaching but you can’t ever overlook or you can’t ever forget the fact that at the end of the day people are buying you and so your own personal growth, your own personal development, these decidedly soft skills like are things that I talk about in my first book.
RV: (03:12)
Take the stairs or procrastinating on purpose or like what Nick is talking about here with just getting your mind right like just because you are a personal brand doesn’t mean that you are somehow exempt from learning and practicing all of the very things that you teach and that that we teach in the industry of personal development. In fact, one of the reasons why I’m in this industry is because I know I need it more than anybody. I have to be reminded of it.
And Nick was talking about that with, with confidence and clearly confidence is an important skill of any trusted brand or messenger. And I think I appreciated what he said about confidence cause here’s what he said. He said confidence is a skill that we build my keeping our promises with ourselves and following through on them. So in other words, confidence isn’t like just this trait that you’re, you’re born with like swagger, right?
RV: (04:13)
Or you know, like some people just sort of have some swagger. Maybe we think about that, but he say, no, no, no, no, no, no. That’s not what real confidence is. What real confidence is, is integrity, right? Like it comes from following through on the things that you said you were going to do. Not for the world around you, but to yourself.
Can you make a commitment? Can you say you’re going to do something and then can you show up and do that thing? Like that is what creates confidence because it’s based on this track record of being an amazing person. It’s, it’s a, it’s a track record of being trustworthy and, and that is confidence. It is also reputation, right? It’s confidence to yourself. It’s reputation to your market but no matter what you, what you call it, it comes from living out your commitments from integrity, from following through.
RV: (05:13)
And so I think that we wouldn’t always naturally draw a clear, like a straight line to saying, okay, what can I do today that would build and monetize my personal brand? We might think, Oh, I could send an email or I could do a social media post or I could write a book or I could. But it’s like, you know what builds your personal brand just as much as those things is practicing your integrity, building your own personal character, like shaping your attitude, like getting your mind right is as important a part of all of this as anything. It’s just like any profession, right?
It doesn’t matter if you’re a leader or a salesperson or an accountant. There is the skill part of this. And then there is, there’s the mindset piece and I think, you know, this is an interview that was, had a lot of those, those softer sides, the inspirational part, the mindset, the personal development and then, you know, even making confidence, somewhat tactical.
RV: (06:10)
I really appreciated that. Now to the more tactical things. So one of the other big tech takeaways I think for me from this interview with Nick, of course go listen to the full interview. But you know, basically he just came out and, and directly said to build a fan base that cares about you, you have to be open about your struggles, right? You have to be open about your struggles.
And I’ve heard this kind of before, right? Like you hear, Oh, you know, be authentic, be transparent, be vulnerable. Those are like buzzwords of the day, which is great. I don’t, I’m not demeaning those in any way. I think it’s really great. But there was, there was something about the way that Nick said it that really hit me deeply like it, it just really, it really clicked.
It really resonated because there’s something about when you, when you stand in front of a camera or when you get behind a microphone or when you launch a website or when you communicate through a social media post or through a blog or through a book, there’s like, there’s something about communicating through that medium, like putting a medium between me and you.
RV: (07:23)
Like if we were communicating face to face in real life, it’s just like raw. But then when you insert like this medium, some type of a screen you know, typically there’s something where it’s like we feel like we have to pretend or modify or, or mask or [inaudible] or cover up or like just like, just pretend that things are maybe better than they are or not.
And yet, you know, if for the people who care about you in real life and the people that you care about, like the people who you have the deepest relationships with in real life, like not on social media, not in your email list, like not your podcast followers and real life face to face are the people who you walk through struggles with. Right? Like it’s your best friend that was there in the toughest time of your life.
RV: (08:15)
It’s, it’s your family member who you were there for when they were going through a tough time. It’s a teacher who believed in you when you didn’t have faith. It’s, it’s the struggles that create the relationships that create the bonds. And so what Nick said, and again, I guess this should be obvious, but it really just hit me in a different way, was that if you want your audience to care about you, you have to have that kind of a relationship with them, which means it’s not like posting pictures of like your fancy vacation and your rolls Royce in your private jet and like all that stuff all the time.
Like those things are fine, you know, I suppose to whatever extent they, they, they, they fit with your brand messaging. But it’s the, it’s the struggles. It’s the like the weaknesses, it’s the breakdowns.
RV: (09:05)
It’s the hard times. It’s the difficulty that you’re having that makes people care about you and, and, and it shows that you care about them, that you care enough about them that like, Hey, this is a real relationship. I’m trusting you with these intimate parts of my life. Like I’m trusting that sort of sacred piece of me with you. And that is how highly I value this relationship. And that can be done through a medium.
Like that can be done through a podcast or through a video broadcast or it can be done through a book or it can be done through a blog post. It can be done through a medium just the same way as it’s done face to face. But you have to remove that like filter that for whatever reason we fake stuff and we pretend like we go into presentation mode that people, we know a lot of times we work, we’re coaching speakers on this all the time.
RV: (10:06)
Like you’re, you’re talking to this perfectly normal human and then all of a sudden they stand on stage. Like their voice changes and they, their, their, their posture changes. And like they’re this, this confident person and somehow they stand on stage and it’s like we’re in the same room that we were in 30 seconds ago. But now that you’re on stage, you’re like this totally different being.
And you know, that just takes practice. That’s natural. It takes time. And I think that’s, that’s true as well. But one of the ways you can practice it, what Nick was saying is just be vulnerable. Like, just share your struggles, whatever that is. It doesn’t, and I don’t think it, I don’t think he’s talking about like, it doesn’t have to be grandiose things like, Oh, I’m struggling with depression or suicide or you know, divorce or like whatever.
RV: (10:54)
I don’t think it has to be these major things. I think it’s the little things like, man, I was pissed off today because I was waiting in line and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. People connect with that and they care about you. A
nd I think for me, this is, this is something that I, maybe I could do a better job of. I could, I could definitely do a better job of it. So that I thought was really, really good. And then I think, you know, somewhat related to that, my third take away which was big is that he said as an influencer it’s important to engage with the followers that you have now before more will show up in the future. Right. That is a big, that is a big idea.
RV: (11:43)
That is an important, like that is a powerful concept that so many of us are going, gosh, I wish I had more followers. I wish I had more followers. I wish I had followers. I wish I had more subscribers. I wish I had more, you know, more people in my database. And yet we don’t value the ones that we have now with like the sanctity and the reverence that really deserves or attracts more people into that space.
Right. Like if we don’t value the things that we have now, cause we’re constantly just chasing the next thing. Like why would anyone else want to show up just to be one of the numbers? No, no, no, no, no, no. That’s not how it works, right? Like what makes people want to show up? Is that like mean when people feel like they’re getting you? And then when, when, when they feel cared about, they come back.
RV: (12:36)
When people feel cared about, they come back and they tune in. Why? Because in the world we live in today, nobody feels cared about. Everybody feels like a number. Everybody ironically feels more disconnected than we ever have been before in history because we don’t have the genuine, meaningful, deep relationships. And communication happens in such short spurts. And it’s often through texts like, like written Mo modalities that we’re craving the human to human connection.
And so when you give that to people, when you do that through a podcast or through a book, like through the spoken word or the written word, or through a keynote speech, like all of these different mediums that we use to build a personal brand, when you show people that you care, when you talk about them with reverence and, and when you engage with them, when you actually take the time to, you know, answer their questions and comment back to them and respond, you know, back and forth in their DMS, et cetera, et cetera, like that engagement causes like that, that that causes you to develop.
RV: (13:51)
I think the mindset and mentality of, of the proper care of your audience, that is the same mindset and mentality and attitude that attracts more people just showing up. So if you’re not valuing and engaging with and caring for the audience that you have now, I wouldn’t expect a bigger audience to show up for you.
And this reminds me like in a, in another very literal way. Like when I started out speaking, you know, people see me now. Yeah. This isn’t always like, I still do, I still do small gigs. In fact, there’s, you know, some clients will pay my full fee and have me in front of 10 people. That’s rare. But you know, like there’s probably, you know, there’s a lot, there’s a fair number of events that I speak at now that are big. Let’s say, you know, more than 300, 500 people, you know, up into the thousands.
RV: (14:47)
I’m speaking at an event later this year that’ll have 10,000 people live. And so people see that and they go, wow, like if I were in front of 10,000 people live, like I would deliver that keynote with like huge energy. But what they never saw was when I was speaking to two people in the back of a Perkins restaurant on university Boulevard in the South of downtown Denver, Colorado. Like, and I did that hundreds of times, like speaking to tiny groups for free of less than 10 people, 304 times.
I did that. Like, nobody was there. And I wasn’t getting, I mean, there were people there, but there weren’t many people there. But, but that’s the thing is nobody wants to do the work of showing up and nobody wants to care for the small audience in a way that prepares them and develops them and cultivates them into the person they need to be to attract the big audience.
RV: (15:48)
And that’s what Nick is talking about here. So that was a really, really great a reminder. So this interview is, I said, inspiring in many more ways than one. Go check it out if you’re not following you know, his name is Nick Santonastasso which is, you know, long took me a minute to learn how to say. But his handle is @NickSanto534 on most of the socials,
Of course, if you go to our blog, we will put links up to Nick’s profile in the show notes and everything, just like we do with every episode. But Mmm. You know, that is what it comes down to. And I think ultimately it’s like caring enough about yourself that so that you can learn to care for your audience. We’ll see you next time.
Ep 30: The Most Important Relationship with Nick Santonastasso
RV: So I want to let you know right up front that you are meeting this next gentleman at the same time that I am Nick Santonastasso is who you’re about to hear from. And pretty much everyone else on this summit is someone I’ve known for years. We’ve helped them with book launches, we’ve helped them do podcast interviews, you know, they’ve helped me, whatever.
But Nick and I just crossed paths actually a few weeks ago and this guy is absolutely incredible. He’s just an amazing human with an amazing message. And he also has turned it into quite an amazing brand. So he was born with something called Hanhardt syndrome only at the time that he was born. I think only he was the 12th case of Hanhardt syndrome that was diagnosed in the world. And he’s really, I think only like one to four people with it that is living.
RV: And it basically is a rare birth defect that has left him with no legs and undeveloped right arm and a left arm with only one finger, but he was a wrestler in high school a singer. And musician. He’s been a bodybuilder. Like there’s pictures of him with the Rock. He speaks all over. I watched some of his videos. He was so inspiring. He actually has the word ‘inspired’, tattooed on his torso.
And I’ve just been blown away with this guy. And one of my friends, you know, one of our clients and friends, John Ruhlin introduced us. And then one of my other good friends, said that Nick is the most inspiring person he’s ever met. So Nick, thanks for making some time for us, man. Hey brother, I’m grateful for the opportunity and I’m glad we crossed paths and have a lot of mutual friends that are also really amazing people.
RV: So shout out to them. Yeah, yeah. Amen. Those are, those are really good people. And you know, I think Brand Builders Group is all about reputation, right? Like that’s what we study – reputation. We try to like understand what creates it. I think the people that you surround yourself is probably a, probably a part of that.
Just before we dive into like your personal story, I’m curious, when you hear the word reputation, what do you think about, like do you, what have been your philosophies on reputation? Why does it matter? Is there anything like in terms of how you would define it, like just what’s your, what’s your kind of free flow thought on, on what reputations? All of them.
NS: Yeah, that’s a great question. Reputation, what comes to mind is you know, how do people, how do people know how you show up or how do people view you or what is the first thing that comes to mind when they think of your name? Or is there a certain slogan or is there a certain picture that they get painted in their head for that reputation?
What I’ve realized is that, you know, one of my core values, not only in a personal life but in business life is his longevity. And so, you know, I think that a lot of people are trying to get quick fixes. And so it’s like, what can I get out of this collaboration? Or what can I get out of this person or what can I get at this post, whatever it may be. But for me, I am more interested in longevity relationships.
NS: So I’m here to continuously provide value to someone that I want to be in my inner circle. I continuously want to nurture that relationship. And so with reputation, it’s just like who do you, who do you show up as and do you show up at the same person each and every day or it, or is it not congruent? Is it not congruent to who you are behind the camper? I mean, you know, reputation to me is just like what do people think and what do people remember you when you showed up? Like who are you? And, and my thing is not really longevity, but authenticity and transparency.
You want to know how to build a brand. It’s being authentic and it’s being transparent, especially in a world where there’s not many authentic, transparent people nowadays, especially with social media. I mean we see highlights grow, we see, we see all the good stuff and you know, everybody’s just, you know, hosting or highlights. But how you build a real fan base and you know, a fan base that really cares for you is you open up about this, the stuff that you struggle with because we all struggle with something.
RV: So I wanted to talk to you about that. Cause you know, like you’ve been featured in all this major media, you’ve met celebrities, traveled the world, you speak. I mean some people might look at some of that as pretty glamorous, but I have to think that, you know, growing up and along the way, just having the condition that you have there had to have been some times that were pretty dark and pretty challenging.
And why did you choose to come become so public, you know, with something that was, you know, had to have a share of difficulties what caused you to like, just kinda like become such a public figure with that?
NS: Absolutely. So, yeah, it wasn’t always always like this. You know, in my middle school and high school days, I, I struggled, you know, I struggled with that victim mentality of the why me, you know, why do I have to be born like this? It pissed me off. I didn’t get it. I was always focused on all the negative, all the things. And you know, even with girls, I always tell people girls were my biggest suicidal trigger.
You know, as humans we crave energy, whether that’s masculine energy or whether that’s feminine energy. And for me, I didn’t get that feminine energy that I wanted or that I craved. And you know, there was, you know, comments that girl said to me that really stuck with me and just made me feel like I was just this disgusting person. Right? And so the one thing I realized is that man, you only get one body mic and you don’t like feeling this way.
NS: So what are you going to do to get out of that? You know, what are you going to do to, you know, get out of this slump you’re in. And I was, I’ve had suicidal thoughts, but I never followed through in them. I knew, you know, the negative, what a negative wave that would lead my parents and my family and everyone if I took my life. And so that was, it was, it was a thought, but it wasn’t something that I was going to do.
And so, you know, I was trying, I was working on building this person. I needed to start, you know, building my confidence. I needed to start building my mindset in the things that I thought about and focused on. Right? Like we’re focused those energy flows. And so, you know, when I got into high school, I was looking for a way out.
NS: I was looking for know, a coping mechanism per se or you know, a sport or an extracurricular activity. And that was when, you know, I got into bowling at first, one of my best friends, he wrestled his whole entire life, but he decided to bowl his freshman year and we’ll still, I just texted him like, we’re still best friends to this day. And I did bowling and I realized that it wasn’t for me and I wanted something that was going to push me physically, you know, much more physically and mentally.
And my older brother was a wrestler and you know, Dan went back to wrestling his sophomore year and all my best friends are wrestlers. And so I wanted to become a wrestler. And at the time, this arm, this right limb was about five inches longer than it is now. My bone was going faster than my skin, so it was like your finger, but super sensitive and I couldn’t really touch it on anything.
NS: And so, you know, I told my friends I can’t, I can’t lose my arm. You know, I can’t, if I hit my arm hard enough, my bone is going to come through my skin, you know, I can’t wrestle. And then you can always tell people we have ideas and sometimes we blow ideas off. And then we started marinating on those ideas, right? Like figuring out, you know, how am I gonna accomplish this?
You know, what’s in my way. And so, you know, I presented the, the decision to my parents. I said, you know, can we cut? Can we amputate my arm? Can we cut some of my arm off so I can rest wrestle? And you know, they were like, dude, are you serious? And I’m like, yeah, you know, this is something that I really want to do. It’s only going to better the quality of my life anyway.
NS: I’ll be able to do more physical activities with it. And so my sophomore year, my parents went ahead and scheduled my amputation to amputate my arm. And you know, that was just for a chance to Russel, it wasn’t even like a definite chance. That was just a chance to wrestle. So it was two things. It was to better the quality of my life, but to be, but to have the chance to becoming a wrestler.
And so, you know, the question that we can all self reflect on real quick and I’ll get more into it, is, you know, what, what are the things that we need to cut off, you know, to be successful. Hopefully it’s not a limb like me, but what are the limiting beliefs? What are the stories we replay ourselves? What are the things that we focused on that we need to cut off?
NS: What are the people we need to cut out of our life that are holding us back? And so that’s something that the viewers can, you know, self reflect on. But wrestling started my journey in the building who I am now and, and that built my confidence. You know, because I was a kid that thought you’re either born with confidence so you didn’t have it.
But I realized that confidence was a skill. And so, you know, how we build confidence is, is keeping our promise within ourselves. So every time that we commit to something, every time we commit to a goal or commit to something that we want to accomplish, and we don’t do it, we, we lower the wa, we lower our value, we lower our R, we diminish our self value, the way we view ourselves, the relationship we have within ourselves. Because we said we were going to do something and we didn’t do it.
NS: And so how to build confidence is simply making these little promises to yourself, making these little, these little micro challenges to yourself. And when you hit them, you’re not only physically applaud yourself but you mentally applaud yourself. And so when you continuously do that and you build that muscle up, you’re confident, you’re confident in your ability, you know when you say you’re going to do something, it gets done.
You know your work ethic, you know that your self integrity. And so wrestling from going from a JB wrestler to a varsity wrestler too, you know, beating two kids my my senior year from zero these are the things that started building my confidence and allowed me to put myself out on the internet.
RV: Yeah. That I loved that idea that I was just, I, I know we don’t have much time so I was trying to cover as much as no, that’s good. No, I mean we haven’t, we have, we have some time. We have a little bit of time, but I love what you were saying about the confidence piece of that, of that, you know, it’s just keeping comes from keeping promises to ourselves. And I don’t think, I mean I think people think of continence, like you said, as either something you have or you don’t.
And that’s such a great way to be able to, to develop it. So so why do you think you have such a great, like such an engaged following? And, and I mean, I, I mean clearly, you know, you look different from many people, but there’s, there’s a lot of people that have some type of, you know, something that they’re dealing with and people you know, support you and they cheer for you rabidly. You know, w what do you think it is about how you interact with people that’s kind of created that.
NS: So first and foremost, I want to thank you for that compliment because actually, you know, in my head I’m like, it’s not good enough. You know, like, my fan base isn’t good enough and they aren’t loyal enough and they’re not, you know, supporting me. Not in a bad way. I’m not saying this in a bad way, I’m just saying that I know like, and I want to be like, put this out there to be transparent in the way that I think, you know, I have, I have a friend, I’m a won’t mention her name.
I have a friend and she has like probably half of my following and her fan base is just like Colt man. Like she, anything she does, it sells out. Like, like I look up to her and so, you know so thank you for the compliment. But internally I’m like, man, it could be greater.
NS: It could be a greater bond. But I think that, you know, from early on how I started was doing zombie primes. Like, so when I was a senior in high school the app vine came out and everybody was like, dude, you know, vine is amazing. And I got to the point where I was like, man, I’m just going to put myself on the internet and you know, maybe I can make people laugh, but I want to inspire them to [inaudible] everything with my content is always, I have an intense, like I, I want to inspire people in a certain way.
I want to talk to them in a certain way or they a message in a certain way. And so I posted my first zombie prank where basically my goal was to just dress up as the zombies here, someone and then have someone look on the phone when they watched it and go, wow, look how comfortable Nick is in his body.
NS: Maybe I could be a little bit more comfortable mind and also take an approach that no one’s ever did before. No one’s ever done this zombie pranks like me. Right? And so I was the pioneer. And so when I did that, the [inaudible] like it blew up like it was, it was one of the biggest videos people I’ve ever seen on vine. I gained 50,000 followers in a day.
You know, over 80,000 likes and reposts on the video in under a day. Like it was crazy and it was the combination of using my, you know, my unique body, my unicorn body and doing something that has never been done but you know, in an inspiring way. And you know, I literally, it was, it was just crazy. I labeled the video just zombie prime. There was like, vine was just very like, just no descriptive, just Oh, zombie praying.
NS: And so I labeled it that and I caught on and I saw, you know how, how viral it went. But the one thing I want to touch on is it wasn’t all sunshine and rainbows. The majority of those, those comments were bad. Like they were negative. Like the, the, the demographic of vine was children.
And so me being a child myself, 18, 17 years old, you know, I had to build the muscle up of either not reading comments or not letting them affect me. And I hated when my parents read comments too because there were negative, there was so negative comments. And so, you know, the evolution of me, it was, you know, used to go back at these people, right? I used to focus on the negative and focus on the negative comments. And then I built, I built my social media in under a year I gained a million follower.
NS: I’m doing these cranks and that was at the same time where, you know, vine was going downhill and everyone was transferring the YouTube. And to be fully honest, I wasn’t ready to transfer to YouTube. Like I was just like, man, I’m good at posting six second videos. But then people started importing their vines and editing ’em and I was like, I can’t keep up with that. And so I kind of fell off the track.
And so, you know, after vine collapsed and after vine was no more I kind of was at a place in my life. I was like, okay, Nick, like, what’s next? You know, you can’t just, you know, you made this name for yourself and people love you for your pranks. Like, what are you going to do now? And you know, I made an announcement. I said, guys, guys and girls, that doesn’t fulfill me anymore.
NS: You know, doing the pranks, it doesn’t fulfill me anymore. I want to be fulfilled. You know, Tony Robbins says, success without fulfillment is the ultimate failure. Like you can have all the money in the world, but if we don’t do something that makes us feel good inside, it makes us feel fulfilled. What was the empty? And so I made the decision, you know, I, I took a step back from the pranking the industry because I also realized that people were just viewing me as a joke.
You know, like I didn’t just want to be viewed as like not serious, you know, I wanted something next level. And so I went to LA, I went broke in LA trying to do pranks and stuff, and I moved back home and I, and I was like, analyzing industries. I was like, all right, what’s next? And so I was analyzing industries and I looked at, I looked at the fitness industry and I said, well, there’s no guy with no legs and one arm a bodybuilder.
NS: You know, if I get in and I wasn’t in good shape, like that’s the thing I sold the vision way ahead. That’s what the one of my strengths is. Like I can paint a vision in my head and see it so clearly and people may not see it, but I’m like, I’ll get there. Like I’ll figure it out. Like these are the steps. And so, you know, I started, I told everyone, I said, I’m going to become a body builder.
I’m going to become a model and I’m going to become a keynote speaker and I don’t know how I’m going to do these things, but these are the things I’m going to set out to do. And so, you know, I started fitness videos and people to follow me and they were like, dude, you were like, what are you doing? Like how are you to become a bodybuilder?
NS: Like this is stupid, you know, we followed you for your pranks, all this stuff. But remember that it didn’t fulfill me. I was, I wanted to do something that fulfilled me. And so my knowledge and training got better. My knowledge of nutrition got better and my disease, those people go like, like that was like, cause that’s a pretty big, like some of our clients that we talked to are more in what we would call, like someone starting out, we call it brand identification, but then we have some clients that it’s brand reinvention. It’s more like they’re trying to make a pivot.
And that was a, that’s a pretty big pivot from zombie prankster to fitness model. And so you just like one day, like went cold Turkey and just started posted, posted fitness and health advice. Is that what happened? Yeah, so basically when I, I went to LA and I was I was supposed to be a prankster of a core cast show that they were coming out with.
NS: And I moved to LA and two weeks after I signed my lease, they canceled the show. So I went home in LA and so I moved home and it was kinda like, now I don’t view it as that, but it was like a failure for me. And so I came home and it was just like recalibrating. I was like, all right, what is something else that I can take over that people would take me a little bit more serious?
And I always end, I always looked up the people that were in shape. And so my thought process was, well, you can’t buy a fit body. You can’t, you can’t buy a fit body and you can’t wake up with it one day. So if people see, if I, if I commit so long to getting in good shape, people would be like, Oh my God.
NS: Like how, like I wanted to get to the point where I took my shirt off at the pool instead of feeling unconfident, people were like, how the hell does that kid look like that? You know? And you know, I pictured myself, I was like, man, you know, if I could be on a fitness magazine, how inspiring is that? If I can land covers and maybe I can land supplement sponsors and make money like that and do photo shoots, like that was my vision.
And I knew that it was more inspiring and it also went handed down with speaking. I was like, man, I can tie that into motivational speaking. But the speaking thing was even on my radar. And so, you know, I told my parents about that, that pivot and you know, like I said with fitness, like I can’t just be Jack one day or can’t just be stranded like one day it takes some time.
NS: And so I had to like fully commit and believe in myself and like really just like keep that vision in mind. And so, you know, I, I lost a lot of followers and I remember I was starting my Instagram off with 25,000 followers and I was posting these fitness videos and known people were like, dude, this is stupid. Like, I don’t like your fitness videos. Like, what are you doing? But I just kept going.
I was persistent and then, you know, maybe I finally got a video where it looked cool and I was lifting like good amount of weight. And so I would pay the biggest Instagram bodybuilding account, $400 a post. I didn’t have $400 to spend, but I was finding $400 to post. So people can, so I can get a bigger outreach. And so I was PR, I was paying these accounts to post me, I was gaining followers.
NS: And then it got to the point where I didn’t need them anymore because when I posted something, there was so many eyes that, you know, it would get shared and it would get shared all overnight, gain more followers. And maybe I had leverage with my followers to do cross collaborations where I didn’t have to pay as much anymore. And so I grinded my way up. Like I grinded my way up in the bodybuilding world. Like people aren’t following me. I paid for people to see me. I paid me for my videos again in front of people. Wow.
RV: So I appreciate you sharing. That’s very honest. Like you, I mean, I think there’s so many elements,
NS: But I paint. Yeah, I paint.
RV: Yeah, but just the exposure. You didn’t pay for fun. You didn’t buy followers, but you bought exposure. That’s something that we tell people don’t, you know, don’t buy followers, but by exposure, that’s what everybody does. And that’s what every media, movie, TV show, every Superbowl commercial. I mean, they’re, they, they’re paying for exposure. And how bold of you and I think it’s fascinating to me, Nick, of just how number one, you know, your whole philosophy is built on longevity.
Yet, you know, the, the, the health situation that you’ve been battling, like you’ve taken that and said, you know, like, screw that, I’m, I’m going to be about longevity. And then you also said, you know, I’m not fit like, but if I could do that, it’s like you took the thing that you should have been able to do and you went after that thing and said, because it’s the thing I’m not supposed to be able to do. I’m gonna make that my thing. And if I do, people will pay attention. And that’s inspiring and it fricking worked.
NS: Yeah. Well, like I said, I mean, you know,
NS: Even, even now, brother, I’m, I have a lot of plans. Like speaking isn’t just it, right? Like you’ll see here and you know, a couple of months, like I’m, I’m dabbling in different things because I look at the industry and I go, well, how can I bring my uniqueness to the industry? And for people to say, people probably listening like, Oh well it’s easy for him to say he has no legs of an arm. I mean he stands out. But like there is something in you that makes you stand out and that something and don’t, and don’t compare my story to your story. All of our stories are amazing.
The things that people need to realize that we all need to realize is like all the things that you don’t want to talk about on social media. You don’t want to shine the light on. When you do, when you open it up about those stories, that’s when you’ll get your people to connect with you on a deeper level because you’ve been through the same stuff that they’ve been through.
NS: You know, there’s so many people who are holding back and they don’t want to go through the things that they struggle with or their darkest demons. But when you open up in an authentic, transparent way and you show people what you’ve struggled with and how you come at that site, you build a following. And so for me, like now that the way that I view my life is like.
if I share this story or if I get on this podcast or if I get on this interview and share this and this and this has the ability to help someone, then I’m in because there’s going to be someone that resonates with that message. Someone that’s out there that never thought you went through some stuff and you open up about it and they’re like, man, I connect with the sign a totally deeper level where that girl and they trust you more and right. Building your brand is all about having people trust you. And how you get people to assess you is you need to show up authentic and transparent and people will call you out on your BS if you slip up.
RV: I think that that is so powerful and so true that the more that you open up about that, it’s, it’s like the more visceral the connection is between people. So I think if, if you, you know, looking back like you said, you know, you started your Instagram account with 25,000, is there anything that you would’ve done differently to grow your following either faster or differently or more engaged? Like, like going back and doing it over again?
NS: Yeah, I would, would’ve, I would’ve been more proactive on commenting back to every single person. I would’ve commented back to every single person. I’m more engaged in my DMS. So, you know, people don’t expect, you know, influencers or people to reply back. And so when you do, you’re not only standing apart, but that person will remember that. Like, whether you think it or not, like whether you don’t think you’re cool or not. Like when you reply to someone in the time and if something they remember that maybe they might go post it on their story or maybe it’s a hard post cause they’re just such a big fan of you.
But I would be more proactive in replying to everyone. Everyone’s the M and, and for the influence out there that may or may be on a bigger scale, maybe that’s something that you need to outsource or have people pick up on your lingo and start replying for you just so you’re more engaged with your followers because it gets to the point where there’s not enough time in the day.
NS: No way. There’s not enough time in the day, but you know, getting someone that knows how you talk that, you know, you only say a certain thing. So it’s not deviating from what you would say and making sure that you’re commenting back to everyone. Regardless of if the Tate or not like throw a little heart on a hate comment. Like who cares? You know, like and so just being more proactive on that and also just collaborating, you know, collaborating is still key.
You know, right now, I mean, I could be doing more collaborations and, you know, you can always be doing more collaborations and there’s always someone with less followers that’s inclined to more inclined to, you know, collaborate with you. And there’s someone that is, you know, maybe at the same level in a collaborate with you. And then there’s people that are higher up and maybe up to do a little bit more for that collaboration. But I’m always seeking out people in your industry or in your niche or whatever it may be that are congruent with what you put out and collaborate with people because everybody, everybody loves cross pollination of followers.
RV: And what, when you meet, collaborating, like, can you expand on that, on that, that
NS: I’m saying, Hey, you know, let’s do a video together or, you know, maybe I don’t, I don’t, I don’t do much of this, but Hey, like can you throw this up on your story and offer something up on my story? Or you know, shout, shout out for shout. I mean unbind it was, it was the evolution of, of vine for Irvine, right? So you can repose vine so someone repost your vine and you’d repost their vine.
On Instagram maybe it’s collaborating or also there’s engagement groups. So I engage in groups within you know, just reach out and see if those engraves engagement groups. So what that is is there’s group chats in DM, so when you post a piece, you put it in his group and you have a bunch of people commented on it right away because within the first 45 minutes of that post as much engagement as you get is going to spike the algorithm and get you to possibly the discovery page.
But within that first minute to 45 minutes, I think it’s very crucial that you apply to every comment that you’re super engaged and like in the engagement groups have, have other people comment on your stuff. But like, like I said, if I start all over, I would be more proactive in replying to all the comments. And I’m not only does that build a relationship with your supporters, but when people see that there’s 500 comments rather than two 50, because of your $5 to 50, it makes it look better.
RV: Yeah. Interesting. Commenting and collaborating. Those are, those are, those are, those are, those are pretty cool tips. So man, this has been inspiring to hear your story. Informative to like understand some of your process. Where do you want people to go if they want to, if they want to stay connected to you and like follow your journey and see how and even just watch like what you’re doing.
NS: Yeah. So my S I’m on Instagram, Facebook, YouTube, LinkedIn at Santa Ana Sasso. And then my website also is you know, book make santo.com you can go there or a, my mind of a victor.com. And so basically this is where people can follow me. But like I said, I’m, I’m the guy with the really long last name, not just in a leg. So,
RV: Well I think, you know, it’s one of the things I love about you is, is there, I feel like there’s been several reasons and several opportunities to disappear quietly and sort of like retreat back and you’ve done the opposite. You’ve come forward. Whether it’s as a public figure or sharing things, you know, if there’s somebody out there right now, Nick that’s watching this and you know, maybe they have, they have the desire, they have that dream too.
They want to impact millions of people and what they want to speak, they want to influence, but they’re dealing with some of those demons, you know, maybe they’re in kind of that stage that you were when you were in like high school. What would you, what would you say to that person now having been through what you’ve been through?
NS: Yeah. You know, so many people are trying to do seek validation or significance from other people, you know, other relationships or looking at other things. When the biggest relationship, the most important relationship we should be working on is within ourselves. And so that’s working on ourselves. That’s building confidence, that’s making promises with ourselves and following through on them. That’s bettering our foundation, which is our body, our health, you know, health as well. Health is number one. And you can’t build an empire.
You can’t build some amazing thing if you don’t have the health, if you don’t have the foundation. And so it’s working on yourself and once you feel confident enough to put yourself out there, then you, then you do it. But you know, share the things that you know, people don’t know or share the things that you’re comfortable with that you struggle with and how you overcame them because that’s how you’re going to connect to the audience
RV: Or whoever you’re speaking to. Because like I said, you know, in the world we live in nowadays, there are not many transparent, authentic people. And so if you can show up on social media, if you can show up on the videos and share, you know, authentically about what you’ve been through, that’s how you really connect with people. And those people will, will follow you and, and ride or die with you regardless of what you post.
They’ll just love you for you because you show up authentic and transparent. I love it. Man, thank you so much for your story and for your persistence and just your, just your perspective on everything we are. We’re cheering you on and we’re learning from you and following you and I hope, I hope we get a chance to meet in person sometime soon. Mr. Sounds good, brother. Grateful for the opportunity. Thanks for having me.
Ep 15: Different is Better Than Better with Sally Hogshead | Recap Episode
RV: (00:00) Hey, welcome to this special recap edition of the influential personal brand. We’re breaking down the interview today with our longtime friend, Dan Miller, who I absolutely just love. I just love his energy, him and Joanne are awesome. And we met them on a cruise a few years ago and I’ve just been, been friends. So we got your top three takeaways from AJ and from me. So, get us going. AJV: (00:32) Yeah, I think the first thing he said this like really close to the beginning of the interview and I loved it. And he said if somebody or three different people ask me the same question more than three times, I’ll just make a product for it. I think the whole concept of what should I make a product about or where do I find content is really simply answered when you just figure out what do people already come to you for? And so instead of repeating the exact same thing over and over and over again, why not turn it into a product, a course or a video series or a book or a coaching program or certification or all the things that he has done and is doing really, he said most of that comes from just, you know, if I get asked the same question more than three times, then I really consider turning that into a product. RV: (01:24) Yep. I love that. I was one of my takeaways too, is just, you know, the power of listening to your audience. And I think one of the, one of the techniques or strategies that you can use is to ask your audience. So in his case, he’s just listening. But the other thing you can do, like if you need content ideas or you need product ideas, or if you need copy for like your sales page, send a survey to your audience, ask them some questions about what they want and what they’re struggling with, and then take their words that they write back to you and use some of their language in CRE in actually marketing what you’re doing and create a product for them. So that was one of my takeaways too. I just love that. It’s such a simple, a simple, practical, actionable thing that any of us can do, you know, right away. So that was good. So what was your second one AJV: (02:17) Second one was this concept of not doing the new and trendy thing that everyone is doing. And he said, I’ll try to recap it here. He said, but I, I resist the temptation to do every single new and trendy thing that is out there. And he talked about, he said, could I be missing out on lots of money? Maybe do I care? Not really. And I think that’s really just really powerful. It’s like, if what you’re doing is working, why would you derail? What’s working to do just what everyone else is doing. That’s new and trendy. And one of the things that I thought was really insightful and something that you don’t hear a lot about, he said, now I’m not saying anything is wrong with funnels or webinars or with anything he said, but you hear all these people all over social media promoting, I made six figures, seven figures in this launch. AJV: (03:10) He said, what you don’t hear about is how much money they had to give back and refunds. And I thought that was really interesting because you hear a ton of people. You see a ton of ads. It’s like how I made six figures in this funnel, or there’s this one out. And I don’t, I won’t say what it’s called, but it’s how do you have a seven figure funnel? And then he talks about how he came up with this whole thing. And yeah, probably you could do that. I’m sure people are doing that all the time every day. And Dan said, but what you don’t hear about is how much of that they’re actually giving back in refunds because a buyer’s remorse or they didn’t get what they thought it was, or it was a little bit misleading or a little bit of a bait and switch. And I’m not saying everyone is but I do think there’s some accuracy in the fact that you hear a lot of the revenue promoted and that a lot of the backend of what was it even profitable and how much did you actually give back and refunds? And I thought that was just very insightful. RV: (04:09) Yeah. I mean, you got the refunds, you also have affiliate fees and, you know, Facebook ads and paying your graphic designer. And, you know, at the end of the day, it’s like, how, how much do you really keep in? Which is but I think his thing into your point is more about the reputation and like the, AJV: (04:26) Oh yeah, no, I love when he said, he said it, he said, I’m way more about building a consistent audience than having huge infusions of cash said, I’m way more about the consistency time, over time, over time, that will last me 20 years than I am about this one time, big infusion of of cash. And everyone is different. Perhaps you are someone who’s looking for that big infusion of cash and like go for it, do it. But I loved what he said. It’s about playing the long game and making this a, a true, a true business versus this one time push. RV: (05:00) Yeah. So for me, the other thing that I thought was fascinating you know, we teach something to our brand new members that we call the fast cash formula, which is how do you, if you need to make money quickly. And we talk about how coaching a lot of times is the fastest way. If you need to replace an income is to offer coaching. And when he was telling his story, that was how he started. And still to this day, he does one day a month of one-on-one coaching work. And I love that because he was a real life example of what we talk about that, you know, coaching is the fastest path to cash in terms of replacing a large you know, income need, but it’s the least scalable longterm. And, and yet, so he sort of toward the story about how he started with that. RV: (05:51) And then after he had done enough coaching, he created a course for the people who couldn’t afford coaching. And, and so he was teaching this course and then people invited him to come speak because there were people seeing him teach the course. And that, you know, basically out of that coaching work came his content which became also his business model. And I just think that’s a really great way to do it is to do the work, to kind of get your hands in there. And obviously we love coaching. We, we believe in coaching in the power of one-on-one and I just, I just thought that was really encouraging. And, and, you know, he, he does have multiple streams of income, but it’s been developed over years and it’s, it really started from one great body of work, you know, that he flushed out with coaching and real life scenarios then applied it to a course, you know, then applied it to live events and speaking. So I thought that was just a great, a great example. AJV: (06:51) Yeah. There’s a great evolution of evolution. That’s a great one. And I think that’s somewhat similar to my third and final point, which is which I thought is very indicative of what you hear a lot. But yet there’s this mystery around it. He said, but I don’t count on any income from my books. And, you know, in his book is super successful and has been out there, just did a 20 year edition, right? 20Th year, RV: (07:18) 20Th or 25th. AJV: (07:20) Yeah. But a long time, right on. He said, but here’s what I have found. He said, it’s not the book itself that makes all the income, it’s the actual content within the book. So the book is the calling card. It’s the credibility source. Then not to say that you won’t make income. He just doesn’t count on that in his forecast or his budget. But it’s the content of that book that he then takes that and turns it into all these different curriculums. It’s a coaching curriculum. It’s a certification curriculum. It’s a course, it’s a video series, it’s a live event. It’s all these different things that are all circulated around the content of the book. And the book is at the center, but probably isn’t, what’s bringing in the most income for him. However, from that, there is just this entire huge circle of all these things that are moving to make this very successful, a very healthy business, even though most of the income is not from the center of it, which is the book it’s from all these other ancillary income streams that have become his primary revenue. RV: (08:27) Yeah. That’s good, good perspective on the book. For me, my third takeaway, which he talked a little bit about, but it’s more of, of what we know about him and Joanne behind the scenes. And I don’t know that he said this directly, but every time I’m with Dan and Joanne, it always occurs to me how they build their life or, or they build work around their life. They don’t build their life around their work. And so it’s, it’s one of the great possibilities of a personal brand is to be able to like fit work in and around your life. And it’s hard to do cause when you’re an entrepreneur, especially early on, it’s like a lot of times, you know, we’re kind of his life, but you, you want to get out of that and you can get out of that. And AJV: (09:14) I think that goes to a lot of what he talked about, where he resists the temptation to do all of the new and trendy things. Because, well, for what reason, it’s like, are you living to work? Are you working to live? And he talked a lot about his time and his schedule, but I think that is a part of it is resisting the temptation to do. RV: (09:34) Yeah. And I, and I hope for you, like, w w I wonder, I would bet if we could take all the podcast listeners and ask if you’ve heard of Dan Miller, I bet less than half of you have actually heard of him. You’ve probably heard of some of our other guests yet. He has one of the biggest businesses of everyone we’ve ever had on the podcast. And, and his example speaks to the power of steady consistency and just trust and playing the long game and plodding along. He’s the tortoise man. That’s a, that’s such a great that’s a great metaphor. And, and, and we mean that AJV: (10:14) It was his, he said, he said, I’m the tortoise. RV: (10:18) Yeah. That’s. And, and that is, you know, and we say that in the most honoring way, AJV: (10:23) He said it so we can say it. RV: (10:26) But even to that extent, it doesn’t mean you have to be slow. It’s just, it’s the idea of consistency. You don’t have to be the person with a million followers. And, and you know, this, these huge extravagant launches and given away cars, and like, you can do those things like, but, but you don’t have to be that person in order to be successful. Like you can just do the right thing for a really long time, and it will work out like you can’t fail if you just pour back into people’s lives. So I’m as encouraged by that. AJV: (11:01) Yeah. Well, I think it just, in general, there are a million different ways to build your personal brand. And Dan gives a one, one really great perspective of how to do it. And there are many other different perspectives that you will hear from other guests, but to what Roy is saying, it’s like, it’s, it’s all about. And what we talk about a lot, it’s playing the long game and Dan is a great example of the long game. RV: (11:26) Yeah. So there you have it. So hopefully you’re playing the long game and you’ll keep coming back here. We’re going to keep working to provide amazing guests for you and hopefully useful insights. We’re so glad that you’re here. We’ll catch you next time on the influential personal brand.
Ep 14: Different is Better Than Better with Sally Hogshead
Speaker 1: (00:01)
I am about to introduce you to, if you don’t already know her, maybe the smartest woman in the world other than my wife, like and Sally is just one of my dearest friends and colleagues in this space. You know, on the surface, Sally is a New York Times best selling author. She’s a hall of fame speaker. I mean, she literally speaks on the biggest and most prolific stages in the world. She has been on the today show, right? She’s done campaigns for mini Cooper and Nike and get dive in Coca-Cola. And you know, she is somebody that’s been in branding and marketing her entire career. She has built a monstrous personal brand and Sally is just someone who does it the right way and she’s a true thought leader. She has carved out,ua very unique expertise and just shifted the way that the world thinks about,uyou know, her, you know, her first book,ufascinate on recent book, how to make brand your brand impossible to resist. Uso she’s the creator of the fascination advantage assessment, which you all are gonna get for free. Just spoil spoiler, but you got to stick around code. Ubut she’s going to give it to y’all for free. And,ubut more than that, she’s just a dear friend and somebody that I go to when I Bison and learn from. So Sally, thank you.
Speaker 2: (01:27)
And, and likewise, I mean the conversations that you and I have, it seems like every three to six months we have an opportunity to sit down and really get into a meeting, have so much trust between us that we don’t have to sit there and do it. The caveats and the preamble. So I really appreciate that too.
Speaker 1: (01:40)
Yeah, well it’s, it’s an honor. So I want to picture you from the outside. I feel like had a very meteoric rise to success in the speaking world. Like you kind of came in a lot of speakers, you know, it’s like, you know, they’d say, Oh, I spent 2025 years before I was in the hall of that. But there’s, you know, you were working at this for a long time and I just want you to sort of think about, you know, that person that’s out there that wants to be where you are. Like can you just give us the, the, a story, tell us like how did it happen? Like how did you become the speaker, you know, creator of the assessment, New York Times best selling author. Like what was the journey like at a high level?
Speaker 2: (02:24)
It was it, it, it, you know, it looks from the outside, like it’s meteoric only took 10 years in the making. Just cause I was totally not on the radar. No, cause I didn’t want to be, but because I just didn’t really know how to crack into it. And you’re a couple of things that were massively formative for me is as a very dark times that turned into Epiphanes. One of them was when when, when I really wanted it to be a speaker and I actually had tried to make that shift from, Hey, I’m good in presentations to let me share a message with your audience for a fee. I I didn’t have a bestselling book yet and I didn’t have any context. I had no reputation in the, in the speaking world. And I I didn’t have a lot of the things that make it easy to take for granted.
Speaker 2: (03:08)
And so I took a step back and and I realized that, first of all, I was trying so hard to take other speakers and mimic them. I want to be as polished. This speaker, I want to have everything memorized that I had kind of out of fear become locked up. And I think that’s an easy trap to fall in is if we don’t know who we are, we can’t expect anyone else to know who we are. And so I was trying to outdo people at their own game. So I took a step back in 2012 and I thought, w what is it that I can bring to the party that other speakers can’t? And I realized there’s only one time that you have complete control of how other people are going to perceive you. There’s only one time when your brand is is in control.
Speaker 2: (03:53)
And that’s the first few seconds when somebody interacts with you or with your materials for the first time. And so so I created the most fascinating possible mailer that I, that I could, that showed up on people’s doorsteps. And the cool thing about the mailer, it was a, here’s what, so I mailed it out and blue suitcases that look like this. They were grew to be little suitcases. And then I had inside of the case I did an exploration of not me, but this, the recipient. Hey Roy, here’s is what makes you fascinating. You are consistently respected, you are classically admired, you are best in class. And then if you’d like to talk more about how I might be able to bring this in a speech, feel free to reach out to me. Here’s my private cell. So that, so, so that takes looking at that what I was doing was taking a little expertise that I have, which was branding and understanding that you need to instantly differentiate yourself. But applying it in a fresh way and this is something anybody can do. Whatever your background is, find find something in your history, a skillset, an aspect of your network and then find a way to apply it. Not to everything. You don’t have to have great website, great hold music, great team, great office space. You just have to have one highly different,
Speaker 1: (05:16)
I have to disagree with you. I have found that hold music is the single greatest key to get fees is good. Hold music while you’re on the phone. If you don’t have good hold music, you are going to epically fail.
Speaker 2: (05:29)
Well my favorite was my old client Buka devito where it was Italian opera playing in the bathrooms. So so another thing that I did was when I, when I created my business card, since the name of the company is fascinate, I had to do something fascinating. And so when I similarly to the blue suitcase idea, telling them about them, I created a business card that shows them it’s all about them. Hey, how do you fascinate? So then when I meet somebody, I can say, here’s what makes you fascinating worry. I happened to know yours. You, you build loyalty and you set the standard. So if I were to give this to you and I will, I’m just say if I were to give this to you, you fascinate with prestige and trust. Your archetype is the blue chip. What we found was a business card costs $2, but on average we made $64 in returns from every business card I gave out because people kept it. And it was a treasure. I didn’t have the money to pay for everything else extravagantly. But you don’t have to have the most business cards. You have to have the best one. And so I’m applying things from my own background. That was one way that I realized I don’t have to be better, but I do have to be different.
Speaker 1: (06:41)
Yeah, and you have a great quote. We might as well get it out there cause I say it all the time and I do cite you, but it’s, this is like a game changing paradigm. Shifting quote on this. Can you just like go ahead and drop the mic for us with your, your different and better your your asa fee on that.
Speaker 2: (06:58)
It’s good to be better, but it’s better to be different. Different is better than better. And this dates back to when I worked with challenge or underdog brands like mini Cooper trying to compete against VW. If you try to outdo somebody else at their own gate by being better than you, you will always win because somebody else can out outcompete you. But if you try to differentiate yourself, it makes it much easier for you to build a brand, build a company and empire around who you already are so that your personality isn’t a Bolt-on. Your personality is the main driver of your business. That’s how we, especially as entrepreneurs, we can show up and be focused and in the flow and competent and enlivened because we’re understanding the different is better than better.
Speaker 1: (07:42)
Yeah. And I think that that is such a powerful idea again of just like if you, if you become like you say this, the key to becoming fascinating is to, is to become more of who you already are.
Speaker 2: (07:56)
Yeah. Don’t change who you are, become more of who you are. Dan Kennedy also said it another way. He said the higher the income, the the more the person is paid for who they are and the less the person has paid for what they do. Who you are is highly differentiated. What you do is a commodity. So a dentist you do fillings, I do fillings, but what’s the value that you’re bringing there? That is the differentiator for your personal brand. And that’s always been helpful because if you focus on just trying to do what you do better then you’ll never really be able to scale and achieve the massive growth that I know anybody who’s listening to this wants. Even if it’s just having a message that makes a bigger difference in the world, don’t focus on what you do. Focus on who you are.
Speaker 1: (08:43)
Yeah. And do you think that this applies, you know, like obviously a lot of our audience are people who want to monetize their personal brand so they want to be speakers and authors and that, but it’s, it’s interesting to me that you, you go out and you speak in corporations about how to be more fascinating and why it matters. So this, this applies to corporate executives and people like climbing the ladder and like even if you’re working inside of a big company, you, you still feel like cause cause I think there’s, there is a, there is a strong overlap between reputation that we talk about and making it more fascinating. I think it’s like there’s a lot of overlap there. You feel like this applies in the corporate world even if someone’s not gonna build a social media following or whatever.
Speaker 2: (09:27)
Yeah. Well, here’s what I see is that the venn diagram overlap between reputation and what makes you fascinating. Reputation is a clearly established set of principles and beliefs and attributes that are clearly linked to you. So if somebody in the office says, you know what, we really need somebody with a specialty for details. If you have a reputation for being exceptional in the area of details, then that is your ideal project. If you’re a salesperson and you have a competitive advantage in being passionately, emotionally connective, your ideal client is going to be somebody who needs a salesperson who is passionately emotionally connected. So what, what the fascination advantage does is that it helps you pinpoint exactly what your differentiator is. Why should an ideal client work with you and not somebody else? How do you define a personal what we know we need a personal brand, but what is your personal brand and your personal brand? It’s as, as I know, you know, it’s not just the meetings you go into the presentations you go in, it’s who you are and how you move through life so that you can have the best connections you can because you’re making a bigger difference based on how you are different.
Speaker 1: (10:44)
Hmm. Yeah. I absolutely, I absolutely, I love that. And we’re going to talk about the fascination advantage here so that y’all can get this because Sally’s going to give you this assessment that you go through and it actually tells you, you know, like the, the, the phrase that we use is find your uniqueness, which is something I learned from Larry Winget years ago to find your uniqueness and explored the service of others. And so we do the work at brand owners group of just like all day, everyday trying to like dive in and figure out what is the uniqueness of each client. And your assessment really cuts to the heart of that and gives people some language. Yeah. Right up, right up front. So let me ask you that. So before, before we come back to that, when you, what do you feel like was your big breakthrough in terms of a personal brand? So like you mentioned before, you weren’t on off the radar for awhile and then all of a sudden you, you were, you were everywhere and do you feel like there was, you know, what was that big, what was that big moment like for you and how did that kind of happen?
Speaker 2: (11:52)
And in February of 2010, it was a really crappy time to release a high concept business book, which is exactly when my book fascinate came out. So I was sweating bullets cause it was the recession, nobody was spending money on this high concept Malcolm Gladwell type book. And so there were, you know how this goes, there’s, there’s about three months from the time that you’ve turned in the manuscript and you cannot touch it because it is being printed somewhere in a warehouse and then ships or large trucks are taking it out to the world. So I was, you know, just like gouging my eyeballs out with mechanical pencils. So I said, well, if the book is about fascinating, I know what makes brand fascinating. What if we created a way to measure what makes an individual fascinating? So I Kinda, I started, I took the research and I started looking at it and I realized that personality tests are based on psychology and psychology is great, but it shows you how you see the world.
Speaker 2: (12:51)
What it lacks is the ability to show you how does the world see you? In other words, how do people perceive you at your most valuable, your most exceptional? So I went back into my, my, my branding mindset. And brands have focus groups. Coke doesn’t care how coke sees the company. Coke only cares consumer coke only cares. How does the consumer see coke? So if you take the principles of a focus group and you apply it to a personal brand, you can actually measure that. And so I thought, well, when the book comes out in February, we’re where like there were, you know, crickets out there. When the book comes out, what if I had this assessment simply as a social media tool to get people to talk about this and sort of as like a launch buzz vehicle. So the assessment came out and within about three months we had like 30,000 people do it.
Speaker 2: (13:44)
I mean, this is before Facebook advertising. This was just organically, it was getting shared and it continued to live as there was no opt in, there was it, there was no click, we weren’t collecting any email addresses because we had no idea what an email list was. And then finally when we decided that this is really something that needs to have a bigger place in the world. So we started charging for it and turned it into an actual full report. And it was, it was, it was nerve racking that the first, the first couple of days I would get an email. Every time we made a sale and it was the first 12 hours, there was no sale and then a lonely ding. And the next day it was ding Ding until pretty soon my kids called it the dinner bell and a dignity naming thing. And so that, that was kind of a trajectory of realizing that the little weird experiments that you do are the most valuable part of your personal brand. Because if all you do is have one plodding strategy but you haven’t gotten feedback of how other people are going to respond to you that it, it’s crucial to have these little flares of of testing something. And that’s, that’s, I think that’s a great also part of what a brand builders group is doing that you’re actually giving people, not just the why, but the how.
Speaker 1: (14:59)
So can we talk about the assessment for a second? Like it’s, it’s amazing. And I know now it’s like extremely scientific and so many people, how many takes, how many people have taken this assessment
Speaker 2: (15:10)
Over a million. We stopped counting at a million. But yeah,
Speaker 1: (15:14)
That’s incredible. So I think, you know, assessments are really powerful because I just, people just like assessments in general and I think you know, the way that you did yours and positioned it also was powerful versus like Meyers brakes or strength finders or something where it’s like, you know, how you see the world versus how the world sees you. Yeah. Really Genius and, and, and, and very cool. How if somebody is out there and they have an idea for an assessment like they go, Gosh, there, there is something I would want to measure it. How do you go from the idea for an assessment to lay like this is a thing that people can take and how do you know if it’s like validated or you know, it’s legitimate or you know, like talk about that a little bit.
Speaker 2: (16:01)
Sure. Well the first thing that in creating an assessment is what do you want to measure? And I think this is a mistake that I see people make a lot is they’re like, I want an assessment, but they don’t really have anything they don’t have. They’re not, they don’t know what to measure. So they don’t have an outcome because they can’t help people move forward in an area. The second thing that I, that I see people make is once they figure out what they want to measure, like how likely are you to be successful in opening a small business or how likable are you with your team? Then they, they, it’s not just about measuring something, it’s about there has to be an experience that your personal brand is adding to why somebody should do this assessment. Let me say that another way.
Speaker 2: (16:40)
If somebody could take the assessment that you’re thinking about doing, take your name off, put their name on. You don’t have a branded assessment. So it’s, it has nothing to do with you, your business. It, it has to be that if you, if you took my name off the fascination advantage, it’s not like somebody else can put it on. And that was done very much on purpose that the experience of going through it. We had, we had a very clear creative brief and it was super geeky design experts who are voracious about helping you decide, helping you see who you are at your best. So everything we did was kind of like, like everything feels kind of Geeky and highly branded and scientific in making sure that we were using all the research that we had all the iconography and this is what I mean by the experience like having, if you, if you can provide an analytics of some kind, then it makes your assessment much more valuable because it’s not just going on your say so you can actually prove something.
Speaker 2: (17:46)
If you, if you describe, don’t just describe who they are, describe who they are not. So if you’re, if you’re giving somebody feedback, you are likely to be really exceptional in this area. Like in this case, somebody who’s massively forward thinking you are not going to be great in this area. Another thing that I did to differentiate the fascination advantage is I at no point I, I, I positioned it against other competing assessments. And this is a, this is a great key. As your assessment grows, you can’t say, I’m like Myers Briggs, just not as famous. We took the opposite stance and say, great, you have Myers Briggs, you have strengths finder. You don’t need to know any more about that. You don’t need to know how you see the world. You don’t need to know your strengths. You need to know your differences. And then that gives you a foil.
Speaker 2: (18:32)
And this is true for anything in your personal brand, just it’s just as important, just as it’s important to know who you are. It’s almost even more important to know who you’re not and why that matters for your ideal client. So our messaging, our positioning is if you want to know your strengths, there are a lot of other assessments out there. If you want to know your differences and not evaluate people on the basis of strengths and weaknesses and competition then then we’re the only assessment that can offer that. And so, so that can map onto anybody’s personal brand. If you are very much not this kind of thought leader you don’t have to dis them. It’s just you have this, but now let’s into why is what you have to say needed right now for the person that’s gonna buy you, hire you, sign up for you.
Speaker 1: (19:19)
Yeah. And I think this, this concept is something that is one of your superpowers. You have many, but I think one of your superpowers is like differential positioning, but it’s kind of like, I think you described it to me is one time, I think we were talking about maybe speaker fees or, or speaker and you, you’re like, you need to clean this up cause I probably not going to say it right. But it was, it was like you said, you need to be able to put yourself inside of a box that people understand, but then you need to be able to differentiate yourself from everyone else in that box.
Speaker 2: (19:55)
Yes. Yeah. That, that was an interesting interpretation. Where that came from was when I, I did a lot of research trying to understand why was I not getting hired and other people were making 20,000, $30,000 a speech. And so I started looking at what the most successful speakers were doing and I went on to all the speaker bureau websites and I started correlating those dropdown menu of topics. So education’s a topic, politics, economics, psychology, those are all topics. And I, and I measured that against the fee they could charge. I mean, the higher the fee, not just the more demand but more specialized they are. And I saw that people who were using the word innovation on average to describe their topic, made $5,000 more per speech than the people who are using the word creativity. Even though creativity and innovation are essentially the same topic, is just simply how you position it.
Speaker 2: (20:47)
Marketing, totally overused, branding, less used, but still really used fascination. Why are we fascinated by some brands and people? So, so I was still operating in the marketing box, but drilling down more deeply so that it can be very clear. I am not this, but I, I am this another thing, Roy, that you and I talked about one time that I think that was a really interesting conversation we had is that every time you’re putting yourself out there, especially if you’re, if you want a certain job or project or client there four people you’re competing against. Oh yeah. The first one, the first one is, is more of an expert. So they have that they’re more specialized than you. The next one is more famous. The third one is cheaper than you. Definitely don’t want to compete against that person. And the fourth one is the pet who’s, you know, we love Bob, we always work with Bob, the person who’s entrenched in some way.
Speaker 2: (21:44)
So the the specialists, the one is more famous, the one who is cheaper and the one is the pet. So when we think about our personal brand, we have to, we have to be able to buffer all of those. By you definitely don’t want to be the cheapest, but people will only pay you as much as they perceive you’re adding value. And ultimately you have to get somebody to sit their butt down and write a check for you and not for all of your competition. So the more that you can articulate and make it easy for people to know, why should they hire you right now versus hiring the cast of thousands that are out there the, the easier it is for you to attract your ideal client and your ideal client leads to more of the exact work that you want.
Speaker 1: (22:27)
Yeah. So there’s, yeah, I remember that there’s always someone smarter than you, more famous than you, cheaper than you, and more favorite than you. Hopefully not better looking than you. And that’s a good thing. But so, so where do you look for that differentiation then? Is it just in the words you use? Like how do you, how do you figure out, you go, okay, I’m a motivational speaker but I am not this, or I’m a sales speaker but I’m not this or I’m a business author. But I’m not this or I’m a spiritual author, but I’m not this, right. Is that just kind of like, is that kind of like take the assessment, start from where you are, like figure out, you know, what is really unique about you and, and, and build from there.
Speaker 2: (23:14)
A key lesson from worldclass brands, especially ones that are feistier that don’t have the biggest marketing budgets, is they don’t try to compete with the bigger budget or being better. It’s that you have to know how you’re different. But, and that’s how I, when I created the fascination advantage assessment that the key to the whole system is you have to be able to have one word that sums up exactly how you are different and why they should care. So when you took, when you took the fascination advantage assessment, we learned here you’re, you’re a blue chip, you are classic, established and best in class. So the light, this is the language that you had in your report. So where are you might say if you want to work with a brand builder who is classic, established and best in class, then I’m the best option for you.
Speaker 2: (24:00)
If you want to work with a brand builder who is bold, artistic and unorthodox, there are plenty of people that you could work with. But if you want somebody classic, established and best in class, then let’s talk. You could also say you don’t need, you don’t need a brand builder that is bold, artistic and unorthodox. The world is changing too quickly. Branding hasn’t evolved that much. We have to make sure that you can be classic, established and best in class. So think of it like that. Those are words that you plug into your marketing or you simply have it as a positioning. I am this, make a list, I am not this, make a list. A, and then your job is to be as much not this as possible.
Speaker 1: (24:48)
Yeah, that’s, that’s interesting. One of the things that we do. So when we do our strategy days or when people come come through you know, like one of our events is we take up your brand characteristics less than we say come up with a list of adjectives you want people to use to describe your brand. But what we haven’t done is say come up with a list of adjectives you never want people to use when describing your brand, which is what I’m hearing you say is like equally as powerful
Speaker 2: (25:13)
Is there. So I would say there’s a third category. Cause what you said is what you said is great. You, you would never want them to use this to describe your brand. What I was saying was slightly different, but I think as a third category, which is other people are this and that’s fine, but that’s not me. And I’ll never be this. And if a client hires me to be perfectionistic, meticulous on target, a redundant, practical, they shouldn’t work with me, but I can refer them to somebody else. On the other hand, what I would never be. So there’s your second column. What I would never be is the double trouble is like, I’d never want to be dominant, overbearing, dogmatic, startling, chaotic, arrogant, called superior. So here’s who you are, here’s who you would never want to be, but it’s kind of like the shadow of this [inaudible]. And then here’s what other people are other competitors that you can counterpoint yourself again.
Speaker 1: (26:10)
Yeah. Casa. So it’s so, it’s so good. Like it’s, and it’s crazy how much of this I’d say you and then one of my minor, my best buddies, Jason Dorsey.
Speaker 2: (26:21)
Yeah.
Speaker 1: (26:22)
I have both made such an impact on my speaking career just by helping me understand the value of positioning, where it’s like, oh yeah, innovation is worth twice what creativity is worth. Yeah. Same exact content, same space, same bios, everything. And that is about positioning, which is his, what is his so another thing I want to ask you, I don’t want to like, we’re running out of time. I’m trying to think of like, it’s crazy. I’ve got, I don’t even realize this until this interview. I have like a list of like the 25 top lessons I’ve learned from Sally Hogshead like I could write a book on these are like the key, like things that have helped me. There’s another phrase that you say and I think people need to hear this. And I don’t think you teach this formally, but this was like an a side conversation. You said raise the stakes or you have to learn how to raise the stakes that mean and how does that apply to like our personal brand? Yeah.
Speaker 2: (27:23)
Your personal brand is not valuable unless it solves a problem. Fascination. Everybody thought it was a frivolous term. Nobody saw, why do I need to be fascinating if I’m not at a cocktail party? And the answer is in a crowded, distracted, commoditized world, if you don’t fascinate, you will fail. You’ll lose clients, you’ll lose money, you’ll die cold in a lot. And really making the problem as painful as possible. So if you don’t know the problem that you’re solving that people, then you’re not worth the bigger check. The bigger the problem you can solve, the more, the more deeply scary. The problem is the better. I learned this from my original speaking coach, Nick Morgan of public words, and he back in like 2006 when I was trying to be a speaker in the old days. And he said, you’re trying to be liked. The more that you can make somebody uncomfortable about a problem, that they’re already nervous about something that’s already keeping them up at night, the more urgently they’ll want to work with you and the more they will pay you to alleviate that problem.
Speaker 2: (28:24)
So at the beginning of a book or at the beginning of a speech, at the beginning of the presentation, you know, you can greet everybody, but say here’s, here are the threats. These are the threats that you’ve faced. The three threats that I solve are distraction, competition, and commoditization. People aren’t listening to you. Your competition is getting better and nobody knows how you’re different than everybody else. So I recommend that you have three, what do I call them? Deadly threats. What are the three deadly threats that if they don’t have a solution to that problem, then like things are going to hit the fan and then, and then when you explain how you solve that problem, they already have an appetite. The way that the phrase Nick Morgan used was what is their problem for which you are the perfect solution? And when you define that, to me that was, that was, that was hugely transformational because I was doing fascination. Like what kinds of things are fascinating? Why do we pay more for this bottled water than that bottled water? And that’s a $5,000 speech. But when you say your company will go out of business, if you don’t understand how each person on your team has a unique competitive advantage that allows them to be hyper over achievers because they have a specialty that they can double down on one specific area that where they are very likely to over deliver. That’s a different, yeah, same topic.
Speaker 1: (29:43)
All right. Same topic. Yeah. You, CJ effectively you’re teaching the same content but the, the wrapper that you’re doing, it will change the context of which you’re presenting. And also like the awareness of which the audience is receiving that messages
Speaker 2: (29:59)
Much more heightened because they made it, you’ve made it more relevant. You’ve made it uncomfortable, you want people to be itchy, you want people to almost put the book down or walk out of the speech because they’re like, holy crap. One last phase of research of this ties into that I think is relevant to what we’re talking about is of the million people that we’ve measured, we looked at the high performers in every industry at every level, both genders, all geographies. And we said, what are the high performers doing differently about it was going to be linked to skills or network or education. And it wasn’t, it was not what the high performers did differently was two things. A, they delivered a very specific benefit. They did not try to be all things to all people. So first was specific benefit. In my case, a specific benefit would be different, different than yours.
Speaker 2: (30:46)
But is there a specific benefit that you’re meticulous or is it that you’re entrepreneurial and so on? The second thing that high performers did differently is they did it on purpose. They purposely tried to do step away from projects where they couldn’t over deliver. So the detail person wasn’t trying to be the cheerleader for projects. So so that’s that’s kind of the overlap with reputation is that you have to have a reputation for one specific area of specialty and you get to choose it because it’s a personal brand. But make sure it’s something that you want to live into for the rest of your career. Otherwise you won’t be confident and authentic and you’ll be wearing a very expensive masquerade [inaudible].
Speaker 1: (31:31)
Yeah, I think about brand builders group, right? Like we, we made a decided, you know, several decisions early on, like one of them was we do exclusive personal branding. We do not work with companies. We only work with people. That was a very deliberate decision to go, we know that we can do this well for a person. We could probably do it for companies. A lot of our methodologies would apply to companies, but it’s like, that’s just not, you know who we’re going to be. I think
Speaker 2: (31:59)
So that a, so you’re doing with a company that’s highly specialized and you have your word, which is reputation. Yeah, yeah. The word is in the positioning. That repeat, if reputation is your business, then that informs who your clients are and even what your hold music is.
Speaker 1: (32:14)
Yes, it does. Well, and then you know, so like the way, the way we’re positioned right now, although it’s more of like internal moniker, so to speak, is that a obscurity is the problem we solve, which is to be unclear on trusted or unknown. So we say look, like if you don’t have the reputation, it’s either because you’re unclear. You’re, yeah, you can’t, when someone says, what do you do? You fumble like a, you’re untrusted. So they know you, but they don’t trust you or they just don’t know you. You’re flat out and visible. And so when I was thinking about your, your three, three deadly threats was sort of thinking about this. So, yeah, for all of you watching, this is really just a free coaching call for me. I’m glad that you’re all here, but this was just really a way to hook Sally and to be like, okay, what can I do to like get a free coaching for Sally? I know, I’m so seriously Sally, where, where do you want people to go to connect with you? And I know we’ve been teasing the fascination advantage they have to take it. Cause this is what we do. We help them find their uniqueness and it’s like they all should come to us with their word in hand, directly from you. So do you want to tell them where to go or do you want me,
Speaker 2: (33:25)
Yeah, I can tell it’s how to fascinate.com forward slash u y o u how to fascinate.com forward slash you. And then you put in your special code and your special code is BBG 19. All it does, it’s not case sensitive, but BBG 19 all one word. And then when I encourage you to do is after you take the assessment, have people around you take the assessments and you can start having the conversation of understanding, having a word to understand who somebody else is at their best, and then come back to BBG and, and up post in the comments what your result is so that so that we can start to learn more about you and you can start to learn more about other people in your world.
Speaker 1: (34:12)
Yeah, I absolutely, absolutely love it. I think the last thing I want you to just leave, leave people with Sally is you know, this thought about it, you are the way you become fascinating is that more of yourself? Why do you believe that and, and why do you think that matters? Eh, you know, and, and, and does it matter? I mean, there’s like a bazillion people on the planet. Why should anyone care to listen to me or my message or follow my social media when they can follow a bazillion other people?
Speaker 2: (34:47)
Well, growing up with the last name Hogshead, as you can imagine, that’s like a competitive disadvantage on the playground. And and I, I literally remember going in and crying to my mom, Mrs Hogshead saying, why can’t we have a name like Smith or Jones? And My mother said to me, it’s the thing about our name that makes it different, that will one day make you love it. Thing about you that makes you different is what makes people love you. And if we, you know, now my family, we have hogger fest twice a year to celebrate the birthdays of the grandkids and October is Homme Tober fest. But using that as an example, you don’t have to change who you are. You have to become more of who you are, specifically at your best. And that when you do that, it allows you to not not be beaten down by the mediocrity of trying to pretend that you’re something that you’re not, the world isn’t changed by people who sort of care the world.
Speaker 2: (35:47)
The world isn’t changed by people who aren’t passionate and who aren’t almost irrationally dedicated. The world is changed by people who understand who they are so they can help the world exist at its best. And that’s why I’m excited that you have maybe BBG on their eyes and I’m so proud of you. Like we talked about this over a year ago and it was a, it was this concept that you and Aja had had really thought through but really spent time thinking about what, not just what’s the positioning but the purpose, what’s the meaning of your brand? So I am, I’m psyched. Feel like Kinda like a, like a, like a little grandmother coming in and seeing how you’re doing.
Speaker 1: (36:30)
Well that is awesome Sally. Like thank you so much for your encouragement and your wisdom. There’s about 75 tweetable moments in this little interview that we are going to have to boil down to five, but we’ll put links so people can follow you. We’re certainly going to put a direct link for the fascination assessment and the code and everything so people can take it. And thank you for being fascinating, seeing the teaching all of us, how to be more fascinating by being more of ourself. We appreciate you so much.
Speaker 2: (36:59)
Thank you. Wonderful. Thanks Rory
Ep 13: Change the World by Finding Your Voice with Les Brown and Dr. Ona Brown | Recap Episode
On today’s show, we dive in to recap the life-changing conversation we had with Les Brown and his daughter Dr. Ona Brown in our previous episode. There were three major themes to take away from our interview with them that we will elaborate on today: Possibility Heart Comparison For ‘possibility’, what Les said about how […]
Ep 12: Change the World by Finding Your Voice with Les Brown and Dr. Ona Brown
RV: (00:00)
Well my friends, you are witnessing probably one of the greatest moments in my professional career right now because most of the people that we are bringing to you as part of this summit are people that I’ve known for years. Some of them, you know, several of them are clients or they’re people that I’ve helped with their launch or they’ve helped me with one of my book launches or something. But right now you are witnessing a chance for me for the first time ever to meet Les Brown and his daughter, Dr Ohno Brown. I’ve never talked with them before and through a connection, a friend of ours, a mutual friend named Judd, we set this up and so you have a chance to learn here at the feet along side of me too. One of the legends in this business Les Brown, if you’re not familiar, he has inspired millions of people around the world.
RV: (00:51)
He is won the CPE award from the National Speakers Association. That’s the hall of fame. He also won the golden gavel. It was also called one of the top five speakers in the world by toastmasters international. He’s spoken for audiences as large as 80,000 people, as hundreds of thousands of social media followers. And there’s just one of the most inspiring people on the planet. And then sitting next to him here is his wonderful and amazing daughter, Dr Ono Brown, who is also an expert in personal and professional transformation. She has been in the business for decades. She spoken throughout the world, Australia, England Stockholm and South Africa. Her client roster is very impressive in her own right American Airlines, British Petroleum, Federal Reserve Deloitte United way. And she worked with her father started out in his organization, climbed the ranks, you know, started as a sales professional. The customer service was a top negotiator.
RV: (01:53)
Eventually it was the CEO of Les Brown Unlimited and now as an entrepreneur herself. And so they’ve lent us here about 30 minutes of their time to just get to know them. So les and Dr Oana, thank you. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you. Thank you so much for the work that you’re doing and giving us the opportunity to share your audience and be able to give them some insight on this area that we love and has been a passion years. And I know it’s, it’s it, it really is amazing. And I, I, you know, I was trying to think about, okay, you get this one chance in your life to sit down with you two and what are you going to say? And I think my first question is just so simple is, and I would, I would, I would love for both of you to give me your opinions on this, especially since, you know, the people watching and myself, we’re, we’re playing the role of student and your teacher and Oana is both a teacher and also has been, you know, I would think one of your number one students side by side.
RV: (02:49)
But I guess to start with you less, if you had to say, what do you think is the difference between the kind of speaker that changes the world and just another and just another speaker? I don’t think there is such a thing as a bad speaker. I think everyone who steps on stage has this desire to serve and help. But I was personally mentored by somebody I know, you know, Zig Ziglar was a personal mentor of mine for about five years and you know, there’s, there’s people like that that changed the world is, is there anything that you’ve learned that you could say, this is what you should put your mind to if you want to kind of have that type of impact?
LB: (03:33)
Absolutely. Well, that’s a very good question. I’m glad you asked that question. Very few people asked that question. And Zig, I love Zig. He was a phenomenal life. I’ve seen him so many times. We’ve shared the stage. That was one of the goals and dreams I had to open for his day. And it was just a great experience. You’ve just an incredible human being. The, the, the major key to becoming successful in the speaking industry. And my daughter and I, we trained speakers and we share with them what we see as the major key, the, the, the difference between people who change the world and people who just speak, people who change the world use stories. When I came into the industry, the majority of speakers, they were speaking from the book think and grow rich by Napoleon Hill as the Bible providing information from that book. I listened to me. If inflammation could change people, everybody would be skinny. Richard had B.
LB: (04:39)
So what we do, my daughter as a, as a coach as a speaker and what I do, we come without story. You know why? Because a story has a human face. And so when I came into the industry and, and, and this is something else for people who are coaches, entrepreneurs and business people. The Mike Williams, who’s the author of the book called the road to your best stuff. I hired him as my coach and the reason I did, you can’t see the picture when you in the frame. I saw him speaking and I enjoy his style of sweeping man, how he had me on the edge of this, my scene along with the the other audience members. And I asked him to be my coach and mentor because I wanted to do what he did. I wanted to impact the audience the way that he did. And so the three things that’s important. One, getting a coach, somebody who speak on the level of [inaudible]
RV: (05:42)
I like that as a coach. The second thing is having a message that I’m known for. You gotta be hungry. You go on Youtube and put restaurants speaking
LB: (05:58)
In the Georgia Dome, you’ll see that story. So having a signature message, and that’s what Mike helped me to come up with. So everybody has a story, is my Angelo said there’s nothing as painful as an untold story buried in your soul. And the third thing is, which is major using your story to orchestrate an experience to transform the audience individually and collectively. Oliver Wendell Holmes, that that wants a man, a woman’s mind and has been expanded with an idea or concept or experience. It can never be satisfied that going back to where it was, the speaking industry had been hijacked by speakers who speak to sell. We speak and I train speakers to change lives. Impact drives, requests and income. You transform people’s lives and transform how they see themselves that’s going to impact the kind of results that they’re able to produce in their lives. And they will want your products. You don’t have to sham it down. The thoughts that come up with neuro linguistic programming or group hypnotics and other techniques or use all kinds of profanity, f bombs, all that. You know, you, if you provide value for people, they will want to develop a relationship with you. Does that make sense?
RV: (07:32)
Yeah, I love that. I, I, you know, so, so you know Dr Oana, you got a chance to kind of watch your father do this. You, you, you teach other people to do it is, is there anything you would kind of add to this idea? I mean, get a coach, super big believer, but what about that like the message part specifically? I think that’s one of the things I’m, a lot of the people that come to brand builders group, they’re struggling to figure out what their messages.
LB: (08:00)
Is there anything that helps with that? Well, let me just say that’s a good question because we call her the message midwife. Yes, go ahead.
OB: (08:12)
The method midwife and I help people to actually give birth to their unique message that they want
LB: (08:17)
[Inaudible]
OB: (08:18)
And that’s what I’ve been doing since 1995 and it is one of, it is my magnificent obsession. I’m so grateful and honored every time we are able to help a voice to come forth that’s been waiting and trying to figure out where is my voice, what does my voice have to share with the world? And one of the things that I would like to add to what dad just said is the fact that he genuinely cares about people. My father genuinely loves people and wants to see people be able to have their greatest life, to live their dreams and to become the greatest version of themselves. And so when I think about someone that’s able to actually impact the world, it’s important that we look at the foundation, the actual base intention of why you are speaking. Is it because you want to impress people and show people how successful is it?
OB: (09:16)
Because you want to be able to, are you feeling for the Mike or attention or is it because you genuinely are here to want to make this world a better place before you take your last breath? And that is the space that we have always come from and we enjoy working with and coaching because we don’t coach everyone. We, we believe there are certain people that are cut from the same cloth and branches up the same tree. And if you are coming from the space of wanting the world to be better and wanting to do your part to make it happen, that’s when you’re able to actually impact the world, which is the name of my company, world impacts now.
RV: (09:54)
Hey Man, I, I love that. That’s such a simple thing, but it’s like people can tell, right? Like they can tell when you’re there to serve them and support them and then they can also tell when you’re trying to steal attention or you’re trying to like, you know, satisfy your own self worth or, or sell something, you know, as you say. And I, I think that’s, that’s really good. One of the things, and I’m cheating here a little bit because you know, you coach Judd is one of your clients and that he’s also one of our clients on the strategy side. You know, as he shared with me that, cause I asked him, I was like, well, Gosh, like what are you learning? Like what are, what are the things they’re telling you? And he said, you, you know, that you guys really focus on teaching, kind of reaching the heart and moving people emotionally. And not just like Kinda like what you said with the story. And not just information, but is there anything that you think from a technical standpoint that people can do to move people on more of the heart level? And I think, you know, when people think of Les Brown, I think they think of this, you know, straight from the heart, like right to the gut, like honest, you know, catch you in the core. Is that something that can be taught or or yes. Let me jump in.
OB: (11:28)
We emphasize the importance of speaking from your heart and not your head. Most people are coming from their head, right? So we say get out of your head and get into your heart. Because when you speak heart from your heart is going to connect with the hearts of the audience members. Okay, go ahead. Yet. Well,
RV: (11:46)
How people live their lives as a result of the story. They believe about themselves, training people to
LB: (11:53)
Do three dimensional storytelling where you expand their mind and vision of themselves beyond their mental conditioning and circumstances where you touch their heart. Because the heart we’re in basically emotional people and you ignite their spirit, distract them from their thinking presently. Interrupt that mindset. Touch their hearts and ignite the spirit your lives. No saying who take a horse to the water. You can’t make them drink of it. You know how to effectively communicate and you create the thirst where they want to. Drake. And so when you look at how to get people to go there, I want to ask you a question please. When you look at your life and go back when you were like four or five years old, you look around, who’s the first person that you looked at that you admire, that you loved and that had a great impact on? Who was that person
RV: (12:51)
You asking me directly? Yes. Gosh, there’s so many people. But the person I usually talk about, well it’s really my mom. I was raised by a single mother and you know, she sold Mary Kay and like was trying to make money on this side and raise two kids and she was 22 years old and had no college degree and had been divorced twice and so, you know, but, and she wasn’t educated like, but she always, I remember her saying, she’s like Roy, one day you’re going to go to college and you’re going to get a full ride scholarship cause I’m not going to be able to afford to send to you. But she would, she was the first person that I remember saying you can do anything. Whatever. Whatever you dream of is available to you. So that was my mom.
LB: (13:40)
Good. What now? What’s your mother’s name? Tessy. Tessy. Good. Alright, good. Ladies and gentlemen, what did you announce you first day morning, Rory?
RV: (13:50)
Ori. Rory is how you say it? Yep.
LB: (13:52)
Hello, my name is Roy Ladies and gentleman. I want you to write something down. You can do anything. I want you to just, just that one statement and I want you to think about your goals and your dreams and your personal life, your professional life, and something you want to do in terms of your social contribution to make a difference. And when you think about that, here’s what I want you to do is look back at that statement. You can do anything. Let me share something with you. My mother, my mother was a single mother. She sold Mary Kay. She was an entrepreneur. She was a person that not only was she driven to make things happen, to create a great life for us, but she also, she inspired me and she taught me and it was constantly an affirmation. You can do anything that you want to do.
LB: (14:48)
And as you think about yourself and think about your dreams, most people go to their graves with their dreams still in them because they suffer from possibility blindness. What have they been in our household? They would be living their dream. Yes, like I’m living by and I’m saying to you, as my mother said to me, you could do anything. The other thing is that I learned from my mother. As you think about your goals and dreams, take responsibility for what you want. My mother was a take charge person. She was a person that took responsibility for raising us and she thought, like George Bernard Shaw said, the people that make in this life, they look around for the circumstances that they want and if they can’t find them, they create them. You take responsibility for your life as my mother did in raising us the possibilities of what can come out of that. I has not seen ear has not heard those in the heart of mankind. What God has in store for you. So do you see where I’m going with that?
RV: (15:49)
Yeah, so so and so you just, you, you kind of will like just have someone tell the story and then you kind of reconstruct it with the message, apply it to the audience and then kind of where did you learn it from? Your mother.
LB: (16:03)
Your mother impacted you between the ages of zero and five according to DACA Mod and seal, the man who wrote the book learned optimism the most exhaustive 26 years study on self esteem. He said between zero and five we form a word in our heart. That word is yes or that word is no. And so as you watched your mother and how she conducted herself, the values that she had, you pick those values. Some things are taught, some that caught. So there was an imprint that was made on you and that’s why you are who you are. Now. You were molding then who you were going to become in the future with your observation and unconsciously taking on that mindset, embracing those values that you witnessed and then began to incorporate them in your life to create a different kind of story for yourself.
RV: (17:00)
[Inaudible] I love, I love that. So it’s almost like it’s, it’s, it sounds like you could almost take, take the stories that moved you and those are the stories you tell to other people. It’s like if it moved you, it’s gonna move, it’s gonna move somebody else. It’s
LB: (17:16)
Also the end, the lessons that you learned from the story. You learned a lot from her just watching her as a kid. And so as as you, you know, Abraham Lincoln said all that I am and all that ever hope to be, I owed to my mother. And so when you, when you started talking about her, you immediately picked up inside talking about all the things that she did in a very short time that gave us a picture of who she was selling. Mary Kay being a driven woman, a mother who was single, found a way to raise us and was the kind of person that can make a way out of no way. All of those qualities are required today in this era. What the late Peter Drucker call that era, the three C’s, accelerated change, overwhelming complexity, and tremendous competition. So you have in you and we were working about [inaudible] and Ana and I spend time with you.
LB: (18:14)
We will extract the UN title out of your heart that resonates with you as a person. And out of that title of book, a title for your book in that keynote message, why we know about Dr. Model of the game, because I have a dream. The Kennedy’s ask not what your country can do for you. Ask what you could do for your country, Les Brown, you gotta be hungry. So there is a story in you that will distract, dispute and inspire that will distract people from their current story. That through the execution of your story and the things you learned from your mother and your own life experiences, you dismantled their current belief system and you inspire them to become, as Mother Teresa would say, a pencil in the hand of God and started writing a new chapter in their lives.
RV: (19:08)
So I, I love this and I’ve got a question for you Dr Ono. Okay. So you know, it’s interesting cause you’re, you’ve complete a lot of his sentences cause it’s like you guys had a speaking from the same, you know, the same place. But if I, and I agree with this very much, you know, you said this earlier that that people beat people become I think you said we, we are the basically the stories that we tell ourselves about who we are. We live into that. So Dr Ana, my question would be from your opinion or your perspective, what is the story that your dad has told himself about himself over the years that you think has positioned him to do what he has done? Right. So there’s some story that we’re all telling ourselves in our head. Yes. From your firsthand like growing up in the house and being there with the man. What do you think is the story he tells himself about himself that has, has helped him become who he is?
LB: (20:15)
Good question.
OB: (20:16)
The question, the story that I believe my father’s told himself about himself is that he has greatness within him and he tells his audience members that. And I, I, we also say that when you are doing this type of work, whatever you put out, it comes back to you a hundred fold. And so I am sharpens iron and as he’s telling the audience, you have greatness within you. I believe that needs also repeating what he is told to himself. Time and time again, having rise above and against all of the different things that happened during his childhood and being adopted and being raised by my grandmother made me Brown and not really having any formal education and even build, I’m sure the negative inner conversation with kick in and say, I don’t have what it takes. I’m not qualified. I’m not worthy of this. To be able to stand in front of thousands and demand and command the stage so that people can can actually have your lives be impacted. However, if you would say to himself, I have greatness within me and I’m going to show them that they have greatness within them now within itself, now you’re coming from a different space because he is positioning himself to be utilized as an instrument in that moment. And so I watched my father be in times when he was battling the big C that we call it the little seat, that’s what we call cancer. And he would be in pain
RV: (21:47)
Twice, right?
OB: (21:49)
Yes. Several times throughout the years where he would take the microphone and actually be in pain. However, once he would start to speak because the message was coming through him and not from him, all of a sudden go away. And he would be able to empower people and uplift people and watch them go through what we call a transformational experience. So that is what I think is one of the greatest things that my father’s ever said to himself and to audiences around the world. And that is you have greatness within you.
RV: (22:27)
Nobody’s ever asked you that question before because that was pretty awesome answer that sounded like you’ve given that. That was really, really awesome. I love that. So the story, you know, if, if I, and I think this is really interesting, I think it’s ironic that the people who are speakers and authors, right? They’re sort of like, they’re supposed to be the experts teaching personal development yet they struggle on a day to day basis with the same things that everybody else struggles with. And I think there is a story that speakers, you know, have to overcome, right? They, they say, well, Gosh, there’s a million speakers out there and you know, I don’t have 5 million views on youtube and I don’t have a podcast. It’s 100 million downloads and I’m not a best selling author. And there’s already, there’s already a les Brown and there’s already a Tony Robbins and there’s already whatever. Is there anything that you would say, you know, to, to somebody that maybe has some of those doubts that either they’re too late or they’re too old or they’re not enough because the reality is there is a lot of noise. There is a lot of competition, you know, to what Peter Drucker said you know, talk to us about it.
OB: (23:46)
I would like to speak to this first because I know a little bit more about this and the reason why, because I had to find a way to find my voice in the shadow of this giant light, this gigantic. Did you do that? Yes, and so in my mind I was constantly saying to myself, it was no way on earth. 81 is going to find value in what you have to share and there’s no way you will ever be able to measure up and feel these huge, gigantic shoes. And that was my biggest challenge that I had to overcome and realize that it wasn’t about me becoming a a les brown jr or B becoming this person that was exactly like my father, but finding my own style, my own unique voice, my own way of expressing what I had to express in order to help the people that I would be able to help.
OB: (24:48)
Because what we teach our actual speakers that we work with and we have been grooming and cultivating throughout the years, is that there’s someone that has your name on them. There’s someone that will resonate with your voice and your voice alone and they won’t be able to hear it from Anthony Robbins or Brian Tracy or Jim rural or nor or Les Brown. They will only be able to hear it from you. And we sincerely believe that because it will have something to do with the makeup of who you are, your, your ethnicity, your, your, where you were raised and the beliefs that you have in some of these experiences that you had to grow through and not just go through. And so this was what I had to hold on to was to realize that I had something special in me. I had greatness in me. It was not just exempt for just dad. He was not the only person that had greatness in him and that I was going to be able to reach people. Once I was able to celebrate and embrace who I was in my own unique way, that’s what a speaker has to do for themselves. Celebrate and embrace who they are and get out of the comparison game. This is not a comparison. You don’t need to compete with anything except for the greatest vision of who you can become.
LB: (26:10)
And then he is, we start off first focus on the Messenger and then the message.
Speaker 4: (26:19)
Okay.
LB: (26:20)
Because to me the,
Speaker 4: (26:30)
Yeah.
LB: (26:32)
Live an achievement driven life so that you’re speaking not just from some theory or something you read from a book, but just speaking from that, you are still reaching higher. You know, when you think about something that cyber, he says that a man’s reaches to supersede his grasp war. What are the heavens? And so we must, until you get to the region, I’m just, I’m 75 years old and I still have goals and dreams that I’m working on. I used to think people in their forties, we’re all, now that I’m 75, I feel like I’m a waiter.
RV: (27:14)
Oh my gosh. Yeah, that’s incredible
LB: (27:19)
Ball. That is incredible. So I ha let’s talk about that
RV: (27:26)
Just a little bit less. You know, I, it was when zig zig, I met Zytiga NSA. I was in a contest called the world championship of public speaking for toastmasters and almost 23. And he actually came and sat next to me randomly and we became buddies. And then you know, I was, I was with him and I would go see him, I’d be backstage with him and stuff and right up to where he had his fall and he started to lose her short term memory. So it was, I knew him towards the very end of like his career.
LB: (27:58)
What, what do you [inaudible]
RV: (28:00)
What do you think about now? Like did you think about, you know, succession planning in terms of, you know, transferring things over to Dr own a or, or you know, like what are some of your goals? Like what, what, what is the thing that has your attention
LB: (28:17)
Now? Hmm, that’s a good question. I’m focusing now. Yes, he does. Yeah. You learn, you earn and you pass it on. And so what I’m doing now, and I’m very excited to being able to partner with my daughter to do that, is to train speakers on how to begin to tell their story in a way that they can make a difference. Oliver Wendell Holmes set that, that we should be ashamed to die until we’ve made some major contributions with human chi. We all have an energy signature. So my goal is to train people around the world and train others how to train them because it’s driven by system, not a personality. And so I’m excited. I’ve got speakers now who can go toe to toe with me now. My daughter thinks that she can. Yeah, I just want her to know, know a thing that too, because I’ve seen a Beta too.
RV: (29:25)
Echo c knows all your lines though. Yours. He, this is, here’s why she has an advantage. She knows exactly what she knows exactly what she’s going to say and she knows exactly what you’re gonna say. You’re the one that should be scared. You might not know what either one
LB: (29:42)
Of you are going to say, but she does. I like it. I lie. I like it so much. Well I guess so. So let me ask you this. You know, you’ve mentioned that you guys used to do some a speaker training and all of that and we’ll, we’ll put links, but where do you, where do you want people to go if they want to tune in and learn more about this or you know, follow on your journeys?
OB: (30:06)
Yeah, they can definitely go to own a brown.com that’s o n a B r o w n.com and they can go to Les brown.com. They can go to our social media and follow us there and dms and we’re going to be doing so much more. We just came back from Singapore. It was an amazing trip, 20 hours there, 20 hours back. We trained and did a work with an audience that they was around four or 500. And we really, truly, sincerely believe there are quite a few people that are going through the motions of training people. But here’s what we really, truly believe, Rory. And that is that the more voices that we’re able to uplift and to empower the more voices that come forward and start to speak from their truth and show people ways to get to their greatness and to make it through these seemingly dark times and to shine their light, the better the world will be.
OB: (31:09)
And so it is not about being afraid of someone becoming competition. There is no competition for who my father is. I believe that he is a walking, living, breathing legend, and he is a legend that is being, he’s doing the work of empowering others so then his message will live on and I’m so honored to be a part of that in carrying the torch and not allowing his message to ever die. You will always live on in the hearts of those whose lives he’s touched and he will definitely be a part of those who have taken on their boys and will spread the message that we are here to spread. I love the same evil prevails when good men and women do nothing. And so me as good men and women are doing our work to make the world better and that’s why worry. We’re so honored to be able to collaborate with you because you setting an intention to do this work and make this available to people in a time like this when it’s important to have something that can feed your faith. We love the same feed your faith and your fears will start today
LB: (32:26)
When you ask them, what am I doing? One of the things I did not mention, I want to, I’m looking for seven people that are hungry, hungry to make a difference to to be able to establish a company that they can feel good about it and pass it on to their children and to their grandchildren and so they can email me at Les Brown’s [email protected] that’s Les Brown, [email protected] this is not everybody. I work with seven people our whole year, one on one. This is my one on one training for high end clients and trust me at the end of that year. Well, even during that time, I don’t make a tremendous impact that unsurprised themselves. I will hand them back a different purse.
OB: (33:16)
That’s beautiful. Right. Do you ever, do you, have you ever heard of parent abuse?
RV: (33:21)
Don’t I heard of what? Parents Abuse? Yeah. well I’ve heard of
OB: (33:29)
My dad was female on major or right in the middle of the interview. What does he do? He gives out his email.
RV: (33:39)
Well, you may get a few [inaudible] you may get an email here and there. We’ll, we’ll, we’ll see. So last, here’s my last one, last little thing. So is there one, if there was one lesson that you wished you would have learned earlier, so you know, as a messenger, you know, is whether that’s on the platform speaker or just within your personal life or professional life, is there, is there a lesson that you learned? You eventually learned it, but you thought, man, I wish I would have learned this sooner. If I would’ve learned this sooner, it would’ve made a big difference.
LB: (34:19)
Absolutely. There’s one area that is glaring for me.
OB: (34:24)
I would have done been, no.
RV: (34:29)
Yeah.
LB: (34:35)
Creating collaborative achievement, driven, supported relationships with people who you can learn from, people that will inspire you to grow mentally and spiritually and all the various areas of real life. That to me is major. Oh, QP only quality people.
RV: (34:58)
Oh yeah. Yeah.
OB: (35:00)
I know. It looks like just to piggyback and add to what Dad said, when you’re having planes and time zones and stages and pull kids, often times you can have your blinders on, right? Because we’re taught to focus and to not be distracted and to do what we are actually born to do and to live out our purpose. However, in the midst of that, we were so busy doing what we were doing around the world and getting the standing ovations and and making these clients tickled peak and please beyond measure that we kind of lost. We kind of missed some of this technology shift that was going on and I remember I said, oh, Facebook, what sense does that make? Like if people want me, they can either call me or they can easily send me, you know, an email, but why would I need to go to Facebook? Then doesn’t make sense. And so I remember watching something and it said, Macy’s has a Facebook page. I said, Whoa, okay, maybe this isn’t going anywhere.
OB: (36:08)
So I would say this, being able to tap in to technology if it was something that I would do differently. And I tell all of the speakers that we work with, plug into the technology, build relationships with people like Rory, know how to actually utilize that to have your message be amplified and to reach people in different and various ways because we’re all schools. So we’re used to being able to do everything offline. But the younger generation, they’re doing everything online. Like this is, this is a summit and we are in our home. Yeah, that’s a perfect example of how times have shifted and being able to move and flow with the, with the shift of time.
RV: (36:53)
Yeah. Well I love that. And I think this, this has been some timeless wisdom, some timeless truths and just an absolute privilege and honor to get to see you too in your element, in your home, just chairing, like, you know, the secrets of what you do. And exposing people to everything that you have available. So thank you for everything that you’ve done for what you have yet to do. And, and thank you especially for being here. We are. We’re honored to have you. Thank you. Honored to have you Royce. Thank you so much for who you are and the light that you bring to the world. God bless you. I appreciate you. [inaudible].