Ep 320: 4 Ways To Increase Your Content Engagement with Nora Sudduth
RV (00:07):
Hey brand builder, Rory Vaden here. Thank you so much for taking the time to check out this interview as always, it’s our honor to provide it to you for free and wanted to let you know there’s no big sales pitch or anything coming at the end. However, if you are someone who is looking to build and monetize your personal brand, we would love to talk to you and get to know you a little bit and hear about some of your dreams and visions and share with you a little bit about what we’re up to to see if we might be a fit. So if you’re interested in a free strategy call with someone from our team, we would love to hear from you. You can do that at brand builders, group.com/pod call brand builders, group.com/pod call. We hope to talk to you soon.
AJV (00:54):
Hey everyone. And welcome to another episode on the influential personal brand. I’m super excited today because I get to interview a newer friend. And as you guys know, if you guys listen to the podcast, you know, that we do not accept pitches very often. In fact, we have only accepted three pitches in the history of the influential personal brand and Nora happens to be one of those individuals. So I’m gonna introduce you to Nora and today is really special for three reasons. One, I’m getting to know Nora kind of at the same time that you are. So all of the questions I’m gonna be asking are super out of my own curiosity of going. Tell me more, tell me more. I wanna learn Nora about this. But two Nora is the creator and co-founder of this really amazing product called hello audio.
AJV (01:43):
And it’s all about consumption rates and engagement with audio, which if you’re listening to this, you are already in the mix, right? So this is really, really important. And really what we’re gonna answer is why are you not getting the consumption and engagement rates that you want and you need with audio. And then thirdly Nora self admitted that she doesn’t get to talk much about her personal brand. And so this is also a really cool invitation of not just getting to learn about some really cool things with content consumption and engagement and her awesome company. But I’m also generally just so excited to get to know you and how, why did you create this? And what’s your backstory. I love hearing stories like this. So if you’re listening stick around, this is going to be an energy and content impact episode.
AJV (02:34):
Now on a, a very high professional level, I will read Nora’s bio for you. But just really quickly
NS (03:34):
Oh my goodness. Thank you for having me. I’m so excited to be here.
AJV (03:38):
Hi, I am so excited. And so I wanna continue that conversation. I wanna help, I wanna get to know you more in our brief conversations, I, haven’t got to hear this part of your story. And I know our audience is many people who listen to this are in this transition of, you know, do I keep doing what I’m doing or do I really go for it? Right. Do I really like go out on that limb, jump off the cliff and do what I feel like I was put on this planet to do, or do I stay comfortable? Right. Do I play it safe? And I just keep doing the thing that I’m doing, but you, you took the leap, like you left it and you started hello audio. So I wanna know the story. How did, how did you do it? Why did you do it? Like, how did you get to where you are?
NS (04:18):
Oh, I love it. So I did, I took that traditional path to success or what we were taught right. Is that traditional path. I have a handful of college degrees, right. I started in computer science before there were many women in computer science. So I’ve got that degree. I’ve got an MBA, I’ve got a master’s degree in engineering. And I did, I, I started that, that corporate kind of path, that corporate climb and what I realized, and I didn’t, I’m not one of those folks that hated corporate. I had great experiences. I learned just, I’ve worked with so many different businesses, even, you know, exact target before they sold to Salesforce before they had a successful exit. I’ve worked with so many amazing humans along the way. And so, as I climbed, I would say up that ladder, I think I got further away from what one of my core values is.
NS (05:08):
And I am obsessed with client success. Mm-Hmm
NS (05:53):
Cause I almost didn’t have a family. Right. I almost didn’t have that. And so at, at the time my dad was diagnosed with cancer and I knew that our time was limited and after he passed away, it’s just like, you know, we all have those moments in our lives where we have that realization of, you know, life is short and am I doing what I really want to do? Is this an opportunity for me to reassess some of those decisions? And, and to, like you said, stay comfortable, which there was there would’ve been nothing wrong if I would’ve stayed, you know, in that trajectory and kept going or do I want something else? And so I think that was one pivot point for that kind of help me wake up if you will. And maybe jarred me a little bit to rethink things. And the other thing that was happening was at that point when my dad passed away, I had a little kindergartner.
NS (06:40):
My oldest was in kindergarten. She is now in high school and getting her license, which is crazy. So time has definitely jumped here and I’ve been doing this for a while, but at the time she just, she was obsessed with the school bus. I wanna take the school bus home and I’m like, I am at the office until six o’clock like, you can’t take the school bus home. No one is home at 2 35 when that school bus is coming home. And so she just was like, I wanna take the school bus home. And I’ll tell you, I was sitting in a corporate meeting and there was a lot of meetings in corporate. And so I think this was one of, of many, and I just felt frustrated. I was feeling that sense of not being happy. And, and I, you know, some women collect shoes and handbags, I collect domain names. So I probably have like 600 over 600 domain names the time
AJV (07:28):
My husband, oh my gosh,
NS (07:30):
Can’t help it.
AJV (07:31):
The amount of go daddy, renewal fees that he’s come across my, my credit card.
NS (07:35):
You don’t wanna total. And when you total it up for your taxes, you’re like, oh my gosh, I need to sell. So, and I have sold some, I made some, but still, yes, it’s not. I don’t know if it’s any healthier than a shoe obsession. Quite frankly, it mights probably a lot more expensive. But as I said in that meeting and I bought the domain F the meeting.com, I still own that domain, but I was like, wow, what that, and, and as I look back, I’m like what energy that is, like, if that’s where I really was in life. And I knew it was a lot of things happening. So I left that day and I allowed my daughter to take the bus home. And so as she took, and I met her at the corner and the bus came and her, the joy that she was filled with as she came off, that school bus, granted, even a kindergartner, she was so excited. And I thought, you know what? I want more of that.
AJV (08:24):
Yeah.
NS (08:24):
Amen. I want more of that. And so I started putting things in place to plan that exit. And, and, and I’ll say this for anyone that is in that situation. Well, I think one of the biggest mistakes, or one of the biggest things we’re told when we look for a business opportunity, right? There’s a lot of folks that wanna sell you a Bizo right. There’s lots of different types, lots of different things, but where I think I had the most success in terms of that transition and that exit was, I started with my existing reach. I didn’t just build a product or create a service and then wonder how to get in front of people. Because I think that stops a lot of folks. I think one of the biggest things I did correctly was I started with my existing reach. I didn’t just say, okay, there’s this internet out there, this black box who the heck knows who’s in it, but they’re my clients.
NS (09:14):
I don’t know them yet, but they’re clearly who I need. And instead of doing that, I was like, no, who are the people already around me? Who are the people that already, that already know me that already trust me? And you know what that looks like. We, we forget our real life connections. And I know things have changed pre you know, post pandemic and all the things. But I, I looked at, okay, I was going through my TaeKwonDo. I went and got my first degree, black belt and TaeKwonDo with my daughter. I’m like the studio, all the people there, they’re in my network. Think about your professional network. Think about your personal network. Think about the stores you go to each and every day, the clubs that you’re a part of the memberships that you’re a part of. We don’t, we overlook all of these people that are in our existing.
NS (09:59):
And we’re like, oh, I don’t, I don’t have an audience. I didn’t have an email list. When I started, I had existing reach in every single person listening to this, you have your existing reach. And so I started there and I was like, you know what, I’m looking at, what I can do for people and the results, cuz I’m a very, like I said, I’m obsessed with client results. So what can I do for folks knowing my expertise, knowing my experience. And then I looked at my existing reach and I looked at what, where, where that intersection was now. I didn’t worry about like, well, what if I don’t wanna serve this audience five years from now? Mm-Hmm
NS (10:47):
And that’s how I started. So that was how I ultimately got to the point where yes, I was doing the side hustle in the evenings and on the weekends and before work. Right. Everyone’s like, yeah, you have a nine to five. Well, I didn’t have a nine to five. I felt like I had a seven to six. And then I was, you know, doing things after the kids went to bed or in the morning before they woke up or on the weekends when they went down for naps or all the things, cuz I had a, I had a younger one as well at that time. So I had two and I, I looked at that and I said, that’s the, that’s the path. It’s just step by step. But I think one of the biggest takeaways for me there is start with your existing reach and that’s ultimately so step by step by step. I put those things in place and I was ultimately able to leave that corporate position. And I created a marketing agency of my own and that was my first step into Andre. And I didn’t stay there, but that’s how I initially stepped from corporate into this entrepreneurial space.
AJV (11:42):
Oh, I love that there are so many gems and even the, your story of, you know, I already wrote down like two things and this is, we’re so aligned in this. And I know that we, we don’t know each other, all that well at this point, but I like one of my life mantras is that you do not have to have millions of followers to make millions of dollars. Yes. And we, we try to like instill this and it’s a great reminder to everyone who’s listening. Is that just start with the one? Yes. Like, and it’s, it’s a weird thing because offline, right. And our actual real circle of people we see every day, if we knew that we impacted one person’s life, that would be, we would be so fulfilled and content with that. It would mean something. But yet if we only have one like or one share or one comment online, we somehow think it’s a failure.
AJV (12:36):
Absolutely. It’s the online digital nature somehow often minimizes the impact of a changed life. And I love that. We talk so much about your offline reputation, your offline strategy, as much as your online. I love that. I love that so much. And I love too that you said it’s like the path is always step by step, right? It is. You may not be doing this in five years, like focus on what’s the next step. That’s true. So, so you went from marketing agency, so you left corporate yes. And had your own agency. So then I’m so curious to know is like, how did you go from that to hello audio? And then also tell everyone like, what is, hello, audio? So what was the path of creating a SAS product and how did you get to where you are now?
NS (13:23):
Absolutely. so I had that marketing agency and I grew that marketing agency agency in a multiple six figures in less than nine months. And it was at that point. And if you have, if you ever had a marketing agency or if you’re done done for you, you E you have a choice to make, you’re either gonna grow and you’re gonna hire more team members, or you’re gonna kind of stay in that niche kind of boutique kind of space. And, and it’s a choice and there’s not a right or wrong choice. It’s just a choice of what kind of business you want. And around that time where I was making a decision, I had started to use ClickFunnels in my agency because everything was WordPress. Right. And then click funnels was brand new at the time. And I mean, brand spanking new. And so I started using it, Russell found out what I was doing.
NS (14:03):
And all of a sudden I got a Voxer from Russell Brunson. And I, you, I mean, if I could’ve captured the look on my face, when I got that boxer from Russell Brunson and it was like, Hey, I think we need to talk. I would like you to rebuild my certification program. And so I was like, well, okay, right. Like this is, so here I am trying to make a decision if I’m gonna grow or grow this agency or kind of keep it small. And now I have a third option, which I never suspected, which was shut it down and go work and partner with Russell Brunson and rebuild one of his training programs. And so, you know, talk about what an amazing opportunity. So I’ve of course said, yes, partnered with Russell rebuilt. That certification program took that from like 300, about 300,000 a little bit more to like 4.1 million in 18 months built another seven figure coaching program for Russell.
NS (14:54):
And again, this is because I was so passionate about client success and SAS, right. I love technology. My first degree was in computer science. So this was a natural fit. And through that work and, and reviewing thousands of marketing campaigns and helping just so many people have success with their marketing campaigns. I ended up meeting Lindsay and Derek Padilla, who are the co-founders of, of hello audio. And, you know, I was actually, both of them are former community college professors who really also genuinely care about student success, right? It’s what they do. We all want our students to succeed. And so we had this shared value and as we had both started helping folks kind of with their online courses. And really, I was kind of maybe more focused on the marketing and sales piece of trying to help your digital products grow. And Lindsay was helping folks help be essentially become a better teacher online.
NS (15:49):
And so it was such an amazing partnership and, and a relationship that started there. And then it was Derek that kind of said, Hey, people don’t finish. Like the stats are there. They’re not finishing online courses. What can we do to help? And that’s how hello audio started. So it came from both of us, all three of us actually being so passionate about our, our students having success and knowing that consumption was getting in the way, which sounds silly. But depending on the study, you read, it can be like 3% or maybe I’ve seen a few that say up to 20% of courses get consumed or content is consumed. And people, when they don’t consume your content, they don’t get the results. And so that’s actually how hello audio started. The original product name was podcast, your course. And so as we look at, okay, what does that look like?
NS (16:38):
What are you talking about, Nora? Like, what’s this podcast thing isn’t like, right? Most people are familiar with public podcasts, right? If you’re listening to this, you already know this is an amazing public podcast. And so if you think about the way public podcasts are structured, most people are like, they assume you have to have a show it’s updated daily or weekly. And, and it’s open to the general public, right? As, as a public podcast, anyone can subscribe private podcasts. On the other hand are a little different. They look and feel like a normal pod pod, right? They still, you can play them in your favorite podcast app, your favorite podcast, player of choice. But as a, as the content owner, as the content creator, you get to choose who gets access to that. So now you could actually put some gated content, whether it’s your opt-in or whether it’s your course or other paid content.
NS (17:27):
Now it’s not kind of change a little bit about what it, what it means to be a podcaster. You can now have a podcast without having a show. You’re just using podcasts as a communication channel. And you’re meeting people where they’re already at. Cuz as we look at the numbers, millions of, of north Americans are listening to audio content in their podcast app each and every week to the point where the hours consumed are actually rivaling the number of hours that were consumed in Netflix every single week. Wow. So I’m thinking, why are we not meeting people where they’re already at? Your audience is already in their podcast apps, listening to content. Why aren’t they listening to you? And so that is how we originally started. Hello, audio. And then the use cases just grew from there.
AJV (18:13):
So, okay. There’s like, I could go like 15 different ways right now. I know, I know things. So one of the things you said is that consumption, right? The data around the consumption was like a real problem that is you guys could solve. So I would just love to hear your feedback rather. That’s just your own personal opinion. Or if it’s more scientific, whatever you’ve got. Why, why do, because I think, I think this is same ha it doesn’t matter if it’s a course or whatever. It’s like, we do the same thing with books. Like how many books they’re sitting on my bookshelf at a bot with great intentions, like, oh one day, right? Same thing with courses. And then there’s other books where I’m like, you know, I must finish this. Right. And so I’m so curious, like what is the data around consumption with courses and online content and why do you think that is?
NS (19:00):
You know, it’s fascinating as I look at it’s it, and it varies the percentage it’s fascinating to look at, is it just the login that we’re requiring people to log in? I look at the work involved and the effort involved, and this is kind of back to anything that we offer for sale. Right? I look at their belief, so that consumer needs to believe that by doing the work or by participating in their own success, they’re going to get a result. So that level of certainty needs to be a certain level. I think, for people to engage like it, whether it’s a book, I believe I’m going to enjoy this. So the level of certainty, I think the higher that is the more likely they are to engage. So a and by the way, they’re, they’re a lot more likely to buy your stuff.
NS (19:42):
NS (20:28):
And yet it’s so convenient for you to play at any time, anywhere when we’re not sitting here at the screen. So if you think about what audio does it unlocks all of the hours of the day that you can reach your ideal person or your customer or your student, whatever that looks like for you when they’re not sitting at a computer and I’ll tell you, especially post pandemic, people don’t really wanna spend that many hours sitting at the screen. And so you’re giving them that option. Let, ’em listen to you while they’re walking the dog, while they’re sitting in the carpool line while they’re taking a walk that’s to me, it, it like ease in convenience, allows for greater consumption. If you make it a lot more difficult. And that also is the medium too, right? If, if you’re doing like a 60 some page ebook or are like, that’s, that’s gonna go to the graveyard of PDFs, we all have one. We all know it’s there. I have multiple bad Dropbox and Google all these.
AJV (21:24):
And I’m like, oh, when am I gonna ever have time to get through 4 45
NS (21:28):
Pages? You’re no you’re. And, and with good intentions, you were interested in the topic. We all raise our hand and we’re like, that sounds cool, but you know what? That’s a lot of work. Yep. And I’m not gonna get to that. And so, and then, so that would be the second thing, easing convenience and, and dove dovetailing into the, the third and final one here I would say is time, right? What do we, time is money. We pay to shortcut our path to success. And so if I look at your content and I think this is gonna take me hours to get through, or, you know, if I can’t fit it in to the time pockets that I have in my day or in my life, that’s just gonna be really a lot more challenging for me to consume. And so if I look at for whatever content you’re putting out there, this is fulfillment content for your courses or your coaching program, or, you know, your book.
NS (22:17):
Or if I’m looking at your marketing content, I’m talking about your webinars, I’m talking about your summit presentations, all the cool stuff you’re doing in, when it comes to creating content, if I can make it easier and more convenient to consume, if I can shortcut the path to success and, and, and allow folks to get that, like reduce the time to, to value as, as another kind of term to reduce the time to value. And if I can increase the perceived likelihood that they’re going to get the result that, that, that we’re promising or that your content is promising, that level of certainty people are going, you’re gonna see engagement go up. Those three things I think are critical in order to see your engagement and consumption rates go up.
AJV (22:59):
Ugh. I love that. There’s so much like I wrote just like the, I wrote four. I, I made one up or I heard one extra one. I love
NS (23:07):
It. It’s okay. Bonus.
AJV (23:09):
But I love this. I think this is so powerful for anyone who is listening, who is a content creator of any, of any type, whether it’s written or video or audio, but four things to increase consumption one, make it enjoyable.
NS (23:23):
Yes. Right? Oh,
AJV (23:24):
Yes. It’s like, I’m not gonna do it if I don’t like it. If it, if it’s hard, right.
NS (23:29):
I don’t want it.
AJV (23:30):
I gotta want it. So make it enjoyable. And I think a huge part of doing that is the combination of the story, right? The emotional parts. It’s like, it’s, I think about some of the, my favorite and this, I always think about this. Some of my favorite books are also my least favorite keynote speeches.
NS (23:50):
Yes.
AJV (23:50):
And true. Right. The content is so good and the stories are so good in the book, but then when you hear the speaker, I’m like,
NS (23:58):
What happened?
AJV (24:01):
You know? And it’s like, yeah. And it’s like, it’s weird because it like dolls the value and all of a sudden this great content I’m like, all I can think about is how horrible about 60 or 90 minutes was. Yeah. So it’s like, make it enjoyable. It’s gotta be somewhat right. Edutaining right. The combination of that,
NS (24:17):
To, to that point. Exactly. Most people think the only way they can add value is to give more information. And that’s not true. You can add value by being entertaining. And by being insightful, like there’s, it’s, you can do more, you can add value more ways than just more information.
AJV (24:33):
Absolutely agree with that. But I think that’s just, that’s a great takeaway. If you’re listening is like more information does not equal more value. No, that’s really important. Right. Write that down people number two. So the first thing was, make it enjoyable. Number two increase the likelihood of results. Yes. So tell people, what are the results you’re gonna get if you complete this, like, that’s really important. Like how many of us buy something going a hope, this has the answer.
NS (25:00):
Yeah. Let’s hopefully it’ll work. I
AJV (25:02):
Need you to, I need to know that it’s in there. Right. So increase the likelihood of results. I love that. Three, make it easy to use. I wanna come back to this one, cuz I have a question for you about this one. Sure. and then the last one is reduce time to value, right? Like I think we do the same thing where it’s like, well, I’m gonna make it eight hours and oh, 165 pages because then it’ll be worth the dollar.
NS (25:30):
No, right. No, it’s just not gonna get consumed. That’s what’s gonna happen.
AJV (25:36):
But it’s like, we do that all the time. It’s like these whole value ladders are built on and you get this and you get this and you get this. And it’s interesting because sometimes I’m going, what am I gonna do with all that?
NS (26:30):
Yes. Amen.
AJV (26:31):
I would, I would pay five times the amount of money versus it’s like, this is a 16 hour course with and I’d be like,
NS (26:38):
No, thank you.
AJV (26:39):
I couldn’t pay enough money to do that.
NS (26:41):
Can I pay to have someone do that for me? Can, is there add an option?
AJV (26:46):
Can you just give me the cliff notes? Can you tell me what you learned in a 15 minute coffee?
NS (26:50):
That would be great. Where’s the summary.
AJV (26:53):
The cliff notes please. But I think those are like really important things of like, we get it wrong. We try to add and add and add and add. And really what that’s doing is it’s like when people get in there and they don’t use it, then they think they’ve wasted all this money. Yes. When really the core thing, if we would’ve just kept the main thing, the main thing we could have added even increased the price tag because it doesn’t, it’s not gonna take you that long to get there.
NS (27:18):
That’s right. Because time they value that time. They value that time. And, and to your point, you should know your primary currency. So I like to talk about like, what’s the big promise of your product or the thing, or even if it’s a free training video, you still have to sell that thing. It is still a free offer. What is the primary currency? It what, okay, doesn’t matter if people are sending you their email address and then you’re giving them back something in return or if they’re giving you cold, hard cash, doesn’t matter. There’s still a currency exchange happening here. And so what I like what, this is a great exercise. If you’re listening to this that I love doing this, put you have a column for increase and a column for decrease. And I want you to think about what is that thing, the training, the product, the course your workshop, your book, what are, what are all the ways it can increase something in their life or in their business and decrease.
NS (28:08):
And I want you to try to be as specific as possible. If you can put a timeline on that, cuz we just know time, time is, is key here. People pay for that shortcut to shortcut to success. So do you help them to X their revenue in six months? Do you help reduce or decrease churn in their companies in the next 90 days, whatever that is for your business. Try to think of it and articulate it in, in a, in a currency exchange. Because that way, if you look at and, and chances are, I’m sure all of the folks listening to this, you’re all amazing. You can do more than one thing for people. There’s probably you’re gonna do this exercise. You’re probably gonna have 20 different things that you can increase or decrease in someone’s life or business. The key is to understand what’s the primary one that they care the most about. What’s the one that they’re going to pay the most for. That’s how you’re gonna be able to monetize your expertise in a, in a very scientific kind of a way.
AJV (29:04):
Oh, that’s so good. And it’s like, that’s really a short list of answers. Really? Yes. I mean it’s like most people are gonna pay to get more time. Yeah. They’re gonna pay to make more money or they’re gonna pay to have more fulfillment.
NS (29:18):
Yes. Less stress,
AJV (29:20):
Less stress,
NS (29:21):
More ease. Right. You can go on and on. But if I love the idea of like, oh, they’re actually giving me something and I’m giving them something in return and the clear I can be about what it is and why it’s so valuable, the easier it is to be able to sell.
AJV (29:37):
That’s so good. Do you feel like that translate into copy as well?
NS (29:42):
It does. Oh my God. That is your, I mean, to me, that’s copywriting gold. I would say that exercise. And then the other exercise I always recommend for copywriting is you have to get into the mind of your consumer and write down all of the potential problems they think they could have. And all of the ways that you’re providing a solution for those problems, it’s like problem, solution, exercise. Even if you think it’s crazy. Like I don’t what, and there’s honestly, if you go through this, there’s gonna be some pretty common ones. I don’t have time. I, I don’t know what I’m doing. I don’t believe this is gonna work for me because I’m special or my business is special or I have this special circumstance. Like there’s very common ones that come up. But if you can be able to, you know, those going into your marketing and sales campaigns, then your copy addresses them directly. I think those two exercises, the currency exchange. And then I would say your prospect problem list and your solution list is gonna be the two biggest things you can do to improve your copy.
AJV (30:37):
Ah, so good. And keep it short, right? Yeah. Like that time to your novel emails. No, I had to write a text. This is so funny. I literally one of my newer friends who is helping me break into the sport sports world, her name is Ashley. And she’s like, I’m not really good at email. I’m traveling all the time. So just, can you text me all these things? And I’m like writing this text and I get down. I’m like, oh my gosh, I have just written the longest text ever made on planet earth. And I literally, I sent it and I said, and now I know you’ll never read this. So I’m going to have to send an email that is a third of this link. And it was like, like as I’m writing it, I’m so annoyed with my stuff. I’m like, oh my gosh, why am I still typing?
AJV (31:23):
Why is this so long? Why am just taking so much time? But it’s so true. It’s like, if I have to scroll, I just go, I’ll do it later. Yep. I have to do, it’s gotta stay above the fold. Right. I think those, those are so good. Okay. So I wanna come back to this really quick thing. I literally could probably spend another hour talking to you. This is such a great company. I love this Nora. So ease of use. How do you make it easier for people to use? So I wanna answer that. And then I’m so sensitive of the time. I also then wanna go out, like, I want people to understand like, what is hello, audio, and really dive into this concept of a private podcast. Because at least to me that’s a really newer term. Right. And this gated content, but like how does this help? So, okay. So first ease of use and then let’s talk about private podcast.
NS (32:08):
Yes. Ease of use. So one of, I will say, even from a hello audio perspective is we were building this tool yet. Yes. It’s important in SAS, but I would argue it’s important in anything that people buy, but SAS specifically, why do people not buy software? Because they have a perception that it’s going to be a pain in the butt. They have a perception that it’s going to take them a long time to incorporate it into their business.
AJV (32:31):
A lot of money
NS (32:32):
And yeah, it, it is. Yeah. And depending on where you’re coming from a lot of buddy but it’s, it’s really the, the ability to kind of speed up that time to value, reduce the time to value speed up that success path because you’re making it easy for them to do. And so what other doesn’t matter, that’s why we see for example, authors, when there’s like the PDF version of your audio book or the, the book, and then you have the audio book tend to, if we look at comparisons, a lot of times your conversions on the audio book will be higher because it’s easier to consume. Right? Right. So if we look at your course, is it, are you making it easy to get through meaning are lessons maybe two hours long or are you chunking them up with very specific kind of headlines or very specific targeted engagements if you’re a coach and you do coaching calls, are you putting those replays in a locked membership site where you’re not providing time stamps or, or how can you make it easier for people to get through the content or to take the action?
NS (33:30):
So whenever I’m building an online course, I look at all right, what’s the information they need, what are the actions that they need to take? And what is the support that I can provide her that they’re going to need to take those actions and it, every single step of the way, how can I make it easier for them to consume the information? It it’s again, not creating 16 hours of content. It’s giving them only what they need to take the action. How can I make the action easier to take? Sometimes that’s templates, sometimes it’s swipe files. Sometimes it’s, it’s a certain level of support, right. And giving them that. But it’s all about making it easier. And with hello audio, when we built that, that was actually one of the non-negotiables in building that piece of software is it has to be easy to use if it’s not easy to use, people are not going to use it. And we, that was, that was how we, so now when we look at 70%, I think it’s a little over 70% of our folks said, join, hello, audio, and, and create their first private feed. They do it in less than a day. They launch their first feed in less than a day. And that isn’t a very important metric for our company, because if our product is not easy to use and they can’t get that value quickly, then we’ve done something wrong. That’s kind of what, what we truly believe.
AJV (34:45):
This is so good. So, alright. So I have a personal question for you that. Sure. So while you were talking, I pulled up think GI where we house all of our courses. Right? So as a part of brain builders group, our membership program, you get access to 14 courses. And so I it’s a lot, it’s a lot, right. That’s where I’m going. Right. So I broke it up and that’s why I pulled it in here. And so this has been a, it’s been a hot topic in our company because we have broken everything down into six lessons. Right. And at first everyone was like, that’s just too many. But the reason we did it is to make it bite size. Yep. So here’s what I’m curious to know is like, do you think the way that we’ve broken this up is still too long. So there are six lessons and in each of those lessons, we break them up into a training, a hot seat. And then a workbook. And so the training is 29 minutes and then the coaching hot seat is 15.
NS (35:38):
Okay. But they’re, but they’re distinct. Yeah. Which I love. And I think that, I mean, if I look at a 29 minute training, is that too long? No. Be, and I don’t think it’s never a number. I always look at the content. Are you giving more information that’s necessary knowing you no. Right. Like you’re giving exactly what they need to take the next action and nothing more. Does that mean you don’t care about them? And that you’re like, oh, let me over deliver. No, I like you are over delivering by keeping it as tight as possible. And that’s what I love
AJV (36:10):
Makes me so happy to hear, because if you told me something different, I’m pretty sure my team would’ve been like, we’re done. We
NS (36:16):
Quit. Your team is amazing. Your team is amazing. And here’s what I’ll say
AJV (36:20):
Backwards. Taking more ideas in here. That’s thing helpful to know. Cause it’s like we spent six months basically re orchestrating this from basically what you said is people are like, it’s so long, it’s hard prior to doing this. If you add all these up, you know, it’s like 12 hours of content. And it’s like, we had, ’em when we first started, this is so good for everyone to know. Like, don’t think just because that’s the way you start, that’s the way you have to end up. I know. But you know, when we started putting all of our courses in here, they were in two day, segments is a day, one and day two
NS (36:56):
Are long days. Those are
AJV (36:58):
One was six hours and then day two was like five hours. Right. But that’s how it was. And it wasn’t until like, we probably just had to have it that way. Cuz we have so much curriculum for, it was probably look that way for almost two years before we said, okay, let’s start going through our curriculum and how do we break this up? But that took a process of going, what is the best way to break this up and what is that right amount? And do we include both video and audio or is that too much? And we opted to do both video and audio right. As a, you know, but it’s really interesting of like even going through this, like we just launched our new version of our course membership just April 1st. So we just got it to the way that we wanted four years later. Yeah. And here’s the thing that I think is fascinating. The content itself has not changed.
NS (37:52):
It’s still valid. It still works.
AJV (37:54):
Yeah. And I think that’s a great reminder to anyone who is listening. It’s like just because you’re constantly reinventing and changing doesn’t mean the core content has to change. It’s just the format, the medium, the duration, the delivery mechanisms of it change. This is always a great reminder to me. I’m not sure if you know this, but our first book, so my husband launched his first book, take the stairs which hit number two on the New York times, we were super grateful, super blessed. It was a really awesome time, but we just celebrated 10 years of that book being out. And here’s the funniest thing B the exact same keynote today that he did 10 years ago, when the book launched
NS (38:38):
Still,
AJV (38:39):
When it launched, he was probably charging $7,500. Now his fee is 30. Yep. It’s the same content. The only thing that is different is the way that he delivers the content. That’s it? And I think that’s a great reminder to us is you don’t have to make new content. No. To make it better.
NS (39:00):
Yes. I, and I love that. And the fact that you’re zeroing in on the delivery mechanism, our, you gotta keep in mind markets evolve our habits as consumers evolve. I don’t know anyone who’s listening to this that does not have a, have an ideal customer that is busy. We’re all busy. And so while we, you know, before we would deliver things on like tele seminars, I don’t know about you, but the thought of sitting on a phone or having a phone for like hours on end, like we used to, you know, granted this was over a decade ago, but that was really popular. We have to continue to evolve our delivery mechanisms and our delivery channels to meet people where they’re already at. And that’s why I love. And we actually do integrate directly with think GI we have a lot of folks that host their courses on think GI and they automatically create private podcasts for courses because it’s just the delivery mechanism.
NS (39:54):
Some people will absolutely have time to log in and go through the videos. And I would even argue if you even have a visual course, there’s still benefit for people listening to where you’re taking them. Cuz we all know with learning repetition is key. And so when you sit down to watch that video where you sit down, it sounds like when you have your amazing workbooks and people are working through that, they’ve already heard it. Right. They’ve heard it once and they know where we’re headed or they know where you’re taking them. And that can provide a massive difference in terms of the results that your folks get.
AJV (40:24):
Hmm. I love that. And so you said something that’s really fascinating. It’s like you can create private podcasts yes. As courses in your membership site.
NS (40:33):
Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely.
NS (40:36):
So with, with private podcasts, it kind of is it’s interesting that you can create all sorts of podcasts with different content. So we have a lot of teachers and a lot of online educators that use hello audio and they podcast their course. They have a private podcast version and Amy Porterfield who I know you just recently had on she’s one of a, she’s a hello audio user as well. And so she uses hello audio to deliver her DCA content to her, her audience because she has a lot of folks that are doing this as a side hustle. She has a lot of folks that are busy and here’s the thing. Her videos are amazing. They’re and, and she’s not trying to replace those videos. She’s just making it more convenient and easier to, for her audience to consume that information so that when they do sit down to do the work, they’ve already listened to it.
NS (41:23):
They have another option to get the information they need to get the results that they want. So for, for me, having, it’s easy to be able to just drag and drop all your course content and put it into a private feed that is still protected, right. That’s still very much protected cuz we all know that you put a lot of hard work into creating your premium courses. Right. But it’s also other things as well. We can, we can podcast. So if we look at the coaching calls, this is a great opportunity for coaching calls. You have group coaching calls, how many, and I know we’ve probably both invested heavily in coaching programs during our careers. How many times have we really logged in and watched that hour plus long zoom video really? For me hardly ever. Right. Hardly ever. And even if I start watching it, I have now opened bazillions of other tabs and I’m doing other things background
AJV (42:14):
I’m yeah. It’s just, it’ll just like, you know, absorb into my brain somehow. Yeah.
NS (42:34):
It expires, it expires and, and you get to set that time that it expires, you can set it to expire immediately. Or if you wanna give folks an hour because maybe they’re like me and they’ve got a bazillion devices and you wanna load it on maybe your iPad and your phone, you can do that as well, but we have it set so that you can choose to expire immediately after it’s used.
AJV (42:54):
So I’m curious, have you had any use studies on doing this for like private content? Just for your email list?
NS (43:03):
Yes. Okay.
AJV (43:04):
I’d love to hear
NS (43:05):
That we have folks. So we kind of use, if you think about a private podcast almost as the new inbox, right? So if your newsletters we have tar ZK is one of our users. She’s an amazing copywriter. Her emails are fantastic, right? Obviously she’s a copywriter, so she makes them, she’s a storyteller. They’re fantastic. And yet what she does is she’ll also read them and she has a private podcast called Tarzan, reads her emails, pretty clear what it is. Right. And it gives her subscribers a way to consume that content. Because I mean, I don’t know about your inbox. I probably have a lot of, let’s just say a lot. I don’t wanna get skewed a lot of unread emails in my inbox on a daily basis. So I probably will never need to read. Right. So just to give myself a little bit of an out, but it, it gets more and more crowded.
NS (43:53):
And so this gives her a way to con communicate and reach her existing list. And in a way that is, it allows her to express her personality. Think about reading that newsletter or reading that email and how different the experience is when you read it. And you’re listening to that person, read it with all of their intonation, their brand voice right now, that connection that we have with that person is more intimate. And it’s stronger because of the, the fact that it’s consumed in audio versus doesn’t this there’s nothing wrong with that email that email’s amazing, but it now takes our connection and our relationship to a new level.
AJV (44:30):
Yeah. Well that’s the, the thing with, you know, whether it’s, you know, audio or video, but it’s the audio component it’s like, don’t they say that hearing is like one of like the biggest sources of memory of smell and hearing, but it’s like one of the things too, it’s the thing that’s challenging about the written word is that you miss the tone and you miss those interests. I think, you know, it’s like we, I tried to all the time, it’s like, anytime I’m trying to write heated email, I’m like, delete that. Do not send that
NS (44:59):
That’s gonna not
AJV (44:59):
Be right. Cause it’s like, you always read it in the mood that you’re in, not the mood that it was sent, but totally different connotation and tone and feel when you hear someone in the intent that they desire to send us. Yes. Very much. I love this. This is so fascinating. Okay. So last two things, Nora. So what do you want people to know about hello audio?
NS (45:22):
Oh, well, hello. Audio is a great way for you to reach your consumers where they’re already at. And, and again, we made it easy to use, but even easier to try. So one of the things that we did with hello audience, we removed, I know a lot of SAS companies do this. They ask you to put in net credit card before you try it. We do not. So we have a free seven day trial, no credit card required to allow you to just experience it. So if you do wanna check it out and you’re interested in creating a private podcast for any sorts of content that you might already have, go ahead and go to hello, audio FM. And you can try it out for seven days without any requirements. No, no credit card requirements. It’s just making it super easy. There you go. Ease in convenience, reducing the friction
AJV (46:02):
Practice, what you preach. I’m gonna go from that. Absolutely too. And then last and not least, where can people follow you and learn more about you?
NS (46:11):
Absolutely. You can connect with [email protected] or on Instagram at Nora set.
AJV (46:17):
Oh my gosh, Nora, this was awesome. There is so much richness in this conversation and it’s like, I took an entire page of notes and I’m like trying to pay attention and come up with questions. Like I gotta write this down. This is so good. I love this. This was genuinely one of my favorite interviews that I’ve done. And it’s like, like I told you, it’s like into the audience, you know, it’s like we usually only have friends on it is very rare that we would take a pitch that somebody sent us. But I was so fascinated in this, that you have been the surprising delight in this conversation. Thank you so much for giving us your time today.
NS (46:53):
Oh, thanks for having me. I’m this has been amazing. I’m so glad we connected.
AJV (46:57):
Oh my gosh. I can’t wait to learn more. I can’t wait to stay connected. I’m so fascinated. And you, this has been such an awesome conversation. Thank you so much, everyone listening. Make sure you stay tuned. Come back for the recap episode and we will see you next time on the influential personal brand.
Ep 319: How to Get Publicity with Selena Soo | Recap Episode
RV (00:02):
How do you get publicity for your business, for your brand, for your book, for your mission, for the, for your nonprofit, for whatever it is that you’re trying to do or advance in the world. That was the subject of this week’s interview with Selena Soo. It was awesome. And I really enjoyed meeting her. I was the I, that was the first time I’d ever met her. I I’d heard about her for years just through friends and stuff. And I’m gonna share with you my some of my takeaways from Selena and also I’m gonna share with you some of my own philosophies here about how publicity works and things that we have learned. We’ve, we’ve done a pretty decent job of getting our share of, of publicity over the years. So it’s something that we definitely know about, and then also helping our clients regularly get national appearances for, for different things.
RV (00:52):
Which is, which is great. But one thing I wanna point out is even if you already listened to that interview with selena the first the first time you listen to it, you probably listen to it like as a student, which is like, sort of how, how I was like, what she was saying and trying to learn from her, but go back and listen to it again of not what she’s teaching and not what she’s saying, but how she’s doing it, of all the guests that, that I’ve ever interviewed on this show. And I won’t speak for all the guests that AJ’s interviewed, but of all the guests that I’ve interviewed on this show, I could tell that Selena was a true pro at being a guest because of the way that she sequenced the conversation. And she one thing led to the next and she had frameworks and all of these things, but by the way, if you’re a brand builder, like if you’re one of our messengers, one of our messenger messengers, one of our clients you’ll, you’ll hear her doing things like frameworks and pillar points and the things that we teach you to do and captivating content.
RV (01:59):
And so just like watch how she does it. She was a tremendous guest all the way down to her lead magnet and everything. So just two different ways to learn from her. One is what she was saying. And two was like how she was doing it all. And I recognize those things, cuz those are all things that I try to do and things that I do actually do that have made a huge difference for converting media appearances into leads for your business, right? Like you know, there’s, I, I, I am, I think of myself almost as a professional guest, I’m trying to be a guest and I have a limited window, a limited time, a limited opportunity to be in front of someone else’s audience to deliver so much value quickly in a way in a sequence that creates context for a, a conversation to continue and then to open the door and offer them a chance to find me and stay in relationship with me and us and our team at brand builders group. And then, you know, you know,
RV (02:58):
Turn that into revenue and impact and relationships and Selena did a, a magnificent job of, of it as well. You could go listen to me as a guest on someone’s show too, and you could also see some of those things. So that’s what we’re gonna talk about a little bit here. I was really, really impressed with her. So how do you get publicity? How do you get publicity? First thing that she brought up, which I really loved because I don’t think we hear about this enough is that if you don’t have a mainstream product, you don’t really need mainstream media. If you don’t have a mainstream product, you don’t really need mainstream media. Like, so what do I mean by that? I mean that many of us think, oh, I wrote a book and now I just, I wanna be on good morning America or the today show or Oprah or, you know, the school of greatness podcast or ed my letter, like we think, oh, this would be the secret.
RV (03:53):
Like this would be the key is I gotta get on mainstream media. But in reality you don’t because first of all, the riches are in the niches. The riches are in the niches. You you’ll you’ll often make more money, get more leads for your business by being in a, in front of a smaller number of people. But it’s the right people, this more like rifle approach versus the shotgun approach of like, I just wanna be in front of massive, you know, numbers of people, because if you don’t have a mainstream product, then that means it doesn’t apply to a lot of people. So if there’s a big mass general audience listening, then you’re going, you know, 99% of the audience may not care about what you have. And so it’s not serving that media outlet well, and it’s not serving you well, and it’s not, it’s not serving their, their listeners or their audience.
RV (04:42):
Well, and so you can sort of let go of that idea that in order to, in order for media to be successful, I have to be on the biggest podcast or I have to be on the biggest TV shows or, you know, I have to, I have to be interviewed by the most famous interviewers. You don’t, you don’t, the riches are in the niches. Like so I, I, I want you to, to think about that. Another thing, and I, I talked about this a little bit. I shared this in the interview with Selena, because this is something that we’ve started teaching our, our brand builders clients, which is think of your online audience as an offline room. Think of your online audience as an offline room. So what does that mean? It means for some reason, when we see, like, if you post a video online and you get 14 video views, like a lot of people would look at that and be like, oh, I can’t believe I got 14 video views.
RV (05:38):
Like, you know, I put all this work in for this 62nd video and only 14 people watch it yet. If you were gonna stand up in front of a real life, offline room of 14 people, you’d probably be excited about that. Right? Like your heart would get racing. Certainly if it were 50 people in a room or a hundred people in a room and it like, they are, it’s the same thing. Those are real humans, real people like it’s 14 or 50 people watching a video, just like it’s 14 or 50 people watching you in a room. So those are real human lives. And just, there’s something weird about when we think about it in the context of online. And it’s probably because we’re comparing it to everyone. Like, you know, we’re comparing it to people who have millions of views, like, or their video goes viral and we’re like, oh, why don’t my views?
RV (06:23):
My videos go viral, right? Like I’m only reaching 50 people, sweetheart. You only gotta reach 50 people. Like most of us don’t need thousands of customers to change our life. Most of us, our business would be radically transformed if we had like a dozen or two dozen of our perfect customers this year. Like you don’t need millions of followers to make millions of dollars as AJ says. So think of your online audience as an offline room. And that’ll give you a little more confidence and context of like, yeah, what you’re doing is making a difference. And it will also help you with your media strategy. Why? Because chasing mainstream media, it’s it’s, I don’t wanna tell you not to do it because it’s certainly not impossible. It, it is possible. And, and they, you know, the media needs you more than you need them. So that is true.
RV (07:11):
It’s just, you can expend a lot of energy chasing it and the odds aren’t in your versus you can go after things that you would think of as smaller or like not less important or less significant and actually get in front of a hundred people. And it’s like, that’s a hundred people. That’s a huge audience. You don’t need to be on a podcast that has millions of people. If, if you’re on a podcast that has a hundred downloads, a hundred, not a hundred million, a hundred, if those are the right a hundred people, that’s the same as speaking in front of a room of a hundred of your perfect prospects. So it’s like I would be more specific and target. And we talked about, listen, notes is a great, a great tool for that and spark Toro, where a couple great tools that you could look up that will help you research, you know, different podcasts and things on specific and different influencers on specific topics.
RV (08:03):
So you don’t need to have mainstream media if, if you don’t have a mainstream product. Also to this point, I, I was talking about how clicks are better than views clicks are better than views. So if we’re getting a media appearance, you know, like a, a five minute video clip on good morning, America is not gonna change your life. Like we, you think it will, but it’s not like it’s just not gonna drive that much website traffic. You’re not gonna get it that many opt-ins, you’re not gonna get that many. If any sales like take it from me, but on national TV a few times and had a lot of friends have done it now with a book launch, you get a national TV appearance. You might move a few hundred units with that, like, which is something, but it’s not gonna automatically make you an overnight bestseller just cuz you got on the today show one time, like it’s, it’s different,
Speaker 3 (08:54):
But what can help is when you get a write up and an online and somebody’s blog, like somebody who’s a huge blogger or you know, entrepreneur or ink or Forbes or fortune, if they have a link there to your site, that’s gonna move some people. So clicks are better than views. Although I, I think, you know, full length views, if it’s like an hour long video or an hour long, you know, listens like a podcast, those are super powerful cuz you, they, you have ’em for an hour. Other than that, the real value of national media is really how you repurpose it. It’s it’s, it’s making sure you put the logos on your website. You put the the video, you know, like the clips of you on TV, in your demo videos, in your sales videos and in your press kit, the clips of that, of course, all things we teach you specifically how to do and give you templates for if you’re one of our members which by the way, if you’re not a brand builder member, you should be.
Speaker 3 (09:47):
I mean, I, I mean our stuff is legit. I don’t, as humbly as I can say, we’re changing lives and we have a system that works like, and it’s not only working for us. It’s working for the biggest personal brands in the world. It’s working for people, just brand new intermediate people. Like we got people doing viral, Ted talks, book launches doing seven figures, eight figures in their business, growing their email list, growing their social followers, hundreds of thousands, people going viral with their Ted talks, like our stuff is working cuz it’s system, you know that we spend a lot of time. And, and if you ever wanna talk to someone on our team, you go to free brand call.com/podcast, free brand call.com/podcast and request a free call with our team it’s free. And then we’ve got different levels, right? We’ve got like stuff for beginners and you know, people in between and then, you know, private, like high end one-on-one coaching for like big time businesses and personal brands.
Speaker 3 (10:41):
So anyways, free brand call.com/podcast. Check that out every once in a while, if you haven’t yet. Alright. Second takeaway from Selena. If you wanna get on TV, there’s three things you need to do. Okay. So this is like divided into three subparts. So let’s, if you wanna get on TV and we have the actual TV conversation first of all, start local start with local TV, your local news channel. Why? Because there’s less competition. Two is because they need to feature local news, which is local people. So if you live there, you are a local. So it automatically skews it in your favor. There’s less people asking. They have the same amount of demands for putting out content every single, you know, day 24 hours a day. And and the other thing is because you get to practice, you get to practice, it’s a sandbox, right?
Speaker 3 (11:37):
Like you get to play there in the minor leagues a little bit. Before you go to the big leagues, big leagues, you don’t want your, I, I promise you, you might think you do, but I promise you, you don’t, you don’t want your first TV appearance to be the today show. You don’t want your first podcast appearance to be Louis Houser. Ed Mylet you might think you do, but I’m telling you, you don’t, you want to have practiced and you wanna be confident and tight and sharp and pithy and pointy and punchy and clear. And so that when you’re on there and you’re, you’re delivering your pillar points, it’s like bang, bang, bang. And you know, if again, I’m sound probably like an arrogant jerk here, but if you haven’t yet go listen to ed. My let’s show the ed, my let show podcast and listen to the interview of me on his show.
Speaker 3 (12:25):
What you will hear. There sounds like a spontaneous conversation. And, and in many ways it was and it was very honest and heartfelt and that’s part of the magic. But the baseline of it was that it was the greatest hits of what we teach at brand builders group delivered all in an hour. And so we have, I mean, we have dozens of comments there, there were thousands and thousands of comments, but dozens of comments saying, this is the greatest podcast episode I’ve ever heard on any podcast. Why? Because it’s four years of our life buttoned up and, and, and, and polished and put into this one, you know, 45 minute conversation plus Ed’s magic. And he’s amazing, right? And his audience and all that stuff. Like they love him. They trust him and, and we have great rapport and all that, you know, there’s a lot of things that come together, but we have hundreds of leads that came from that interview because it’s the right combination of all of these, all of these things, not the least of which is that, you know, ed is, is very trusted and he’s got a huge audience, but it’s, it’s a, it’s a great audience, right?
Speaker 3 (13:26):
And it’s like, I would rather have that appearance than the today show because it’s a, it’s, A’s an audience of entrepreneurs, which is our target audience, right. Experts and entrepreneurs. So start local learn to speak in sound bites, catch phrases. For those of you that are listening, that are brand builders internally and captivating content, we call these what pillar points and we teach you the six pillar point formulas. These are six different forms of sentence structure that make it sound smart. And what the way you say it is as important as what you say, the cadence of how we hear things makes it sound smart and even sink and sound smarter than the integrity of the idea itself. And you need to understand how to, to write, speak in soundbites. So like some of my more popular soundbites, success is never owned. Its rented in the rent is due every day.
Speaker 3 (14:16):
When you have diluted focus, you get diluted results. You’re most powerfully positioned to serve the person you once were, you make a life from the problem or you make a, you, you make a, a living from the problem you solve, but you make a life from the passion that you chase. All of these kinds of one liners that automation is to your time. What compounding interest is to your money. These are all one liners that I’ve spent years crafting, right? And then you hear ’em on a, on a TV show and you go, whoa, and it’s, it’s tight. It’s, it’s not three minutes to explain a concept. It’s
RV (14:50):
Like, like the most concentrated core essence of a, of an idea packaged beautifully delivered eloquently in a way that hits the ear and people just go ding. And that’s what you need. You know, when I’m saying we’re going bang, bang it’s it’s soundbite, soundbite, sound bite sound, bite, pillar, point pillar, point pillar, point catchphrase, catchphrase, they’re all, all the same thing, more or less. And then the other thing that she said, which I always forget about, I always forget about this was probably my greatest personal reminder from Selena was think about how to make it visual TVs are visual medium. So if you’re trying to get on TV, think about how to make it visual, right? Don’t just go. Here’s why I’m awesome. And why you should have me think from their perspective, they’re trying to go, how can we put together compelling visual content that holds people’s attention?
RV (15:48):
So just the fact that you’re smart isn’t necessarily make you a great guest for TV. Even if you’re eloquent, cuz it’s like, they need visual elements. So how can I make this more visual? And that was great. And, and again, just to shout out to Selena, like her framework that, that she taught and ran, ran through, which I just loved and you know, it was super simple. The publicity pyramid, you know, she’s a pro she’s a pro like was really, really good. And then the third thing, this is the last one. This is quick one, have one call to action and make sure it’s a lead magnet.
RV (16:24):
Don’t, don’t send people to a thousand places when they’re at the end of the interview and they say, so Rory, you know, this has been great. Where should people go to find out more about you? Be like, well, you can get my book on Amazon. You can follow me on Instagram at this handle. I got a podcast over here. I did a webinar one time on this, you know, I’ll probably go live next week on Facebook over here. No, if you have diluted focus, you get diluted results. Send them to one place, one URL, one call to action, say one thing over and over and over. And again, go listen to me on the ed mallet show. Part of why we got hundreds of leads is not because I’m saying, check out my book over here and I do this and that. And you want info about me on a keynote speaker, duh da no.
RV (17:10):
Yeah. You wanna learn about me? Go to one place free brand call.com and then I give, you know, his affiliate, right? And so everyone there’s and it’s like, well, where else should they go? I would just start there, go to free brand call.com. You know, and his is ed Mylet. You know, the one we use for this podcast free brand call.com/podcast, right? That’s what I’m talking about here. So one call to action, be very specific, clear one URL and send them to a property you control, right? Don’t send them to Amazon. Don’t send to Instagram, right? Like you finally got a captive audience. You finally have an opportunity to build your list and, and, and to start a relationship. And then you send ’em to a website. You have no control over where there’s a million other things going on, send them to a URL, dear goodness, like, and, and learn to create a lead magnet, a lead capture.
RV (18:01):
What, what is that? Right. Okay. All stuff we teach you inside a brand builders group, formal formal training, but a lead capture is a form. A lead magnet is something of value to them, right? And you go, here’s a free training or here’s a free download. Again. Selena did a brilliant job on our show. She had this amazing 12 month media calendar. And I was like, she’s such a pro. She gives one lead magnet, her little calendar, which I, I went and she got me. She got me
RV (18:46):
Download open up PowerPoint, design a seven step checklist to blanky blank, save it and export it as a PDF, and then tell people how to go get it, where to email you and, and how to get it. Or, you know, as you get more sophisticated, you build it as web forms and all that stuff. But that’s the lead magnet is the thing you give them. The lead capture is the place you send them to actually get their information where you capture their info. So when you get these media appearances, oh my goodness, or a speaking opportunity, or you’re on TV or a podcast, like, please don’t send someone to go, go follow me on Instagram so that you can see 1% of my posts. Maybe if you even manage to find my profile and you don’t get distracted by cute puppy dogs or, you know, pictures of Teddy bears rolling around, like, and then if I’m lucky, you’ll see one out of every hundred posts I make no send them to a lead capture with a lead magnet where you can have them in your database and you can own their relationship.
RV (19:45):
I’m not saying don’t use social media. We use social media, but like, this is your opportunity. You just delivered value bombs on a media interview that you spent years practicing and sharpening and getting your pillar points down, make sure you harvest it properly, send them to a place. And don’t just send them to your website. If your website doesn’t have a lead capture on it, which it should be like, you know, lesson number one, lead capture, lead magnet on your website. Yeah. Make sure you have those things straight. So all, all things we’re gonna step you through. If you’re one of our brand builders and do time in, in the right order, but some great takeaways from Selena brilliant job she had, she had all the things we’re talking about, right? It’s not a mainstream media. Our, our podcast is not mainstream media, it’s niche, but it’s right in her niche. She knows that we trust people, our people, you know, we, we, we try to cultivate trust with y’all. We try to give you value. She’s speaking in soundbites. She has frameworks, her little publicity pyramid, one lead magnet, her little 12 media things. She gives you one URL, one place to go download it, pop,
Speaker 4 (20:47):
Pop, pop, pop, pop. That’s a publicity pro. So you know, anyways, we’re gonna get some affiliate links to, to promote some more of Salinas stuff. Hope you check it out. Thank you as always for tuning in. I love you. And thanks for listening to me rant here. I’m just trying to add value. I want to encourage you make sure you go you know, send Salina some love on, on social, like go follow her, leave her a comment. Tell her that you heard her on the influential personal brand podcast. Keep coming back, share this episode. Who do you know in your life that needs publicity? Who do you know, that’s an entrepreneur who do you know, that’s in a book launch? Who, who do you know in your life? Who’s like in this moment going, I’m trying to reach more people send ’em this episode, it’s free. All of our episodes are free. It’s unbelievable. The podcast. I hope you feel that way. I know from your reviews on iTunes, many of you do and you leave us great reviews, which help tremendously. So thank you for that. Thanks for your attention, your reviews, your sharing, your, your loving on our guests. And just for being here, we wanna see you succeed. We wanna see you exploit your uniqueness in the service of others. Have a great one. We’ll catch you next time. Bye-Bye.
Ep 318: How to Get Publicity with Selena Soo
RV (00:02):
If you’ve hung around here for any length of time, you know, that the way that we define personal branding is simply the digitization of reputation. And one of the ways that I vet podcast guests, that we’re gonna bring on to introduce you to is through their reputation. It’s what do I hear about somebody from other people? And that is why you are about to meet Selena Soo. Selena is friends with lots of people that we know, Julie Solomon and Susie Moore, and just like I’ve heard her name for years, Celine Da Costa, who we’ve had on this show, who I really love and adore. And I think she’s brilliant. She actually was the one who finally connected us directly to Selena and Selena is an expert in publicity, you know, visibility and just helping people get seen and, and have more reach.
RV (00:57):
So she, for I think 18 years lived in New York, she had a publicity agency. She’s helped people get featured in Oprah and Forbes and Inc. And she works with lots of you know, experts and entrepreneurs, very similar obviously to our core audience. But specifically in the area of publicity. And so publicity is one of the things that we sort of lightly touch on, but we usually farm out that work to vendor partners. And so she’s a total, a total pro and I was like, we gotta get her on the show so that we can, we can get a chance to meet her. So Selena, welcome to the influential personal brand podcast.
SS (01:34):
Thank you, Rory. I’m so thrilled to be here.
RV (01:37):
So yeah. So let’s talk about publicity and let’s start with the easy ones. How do you get on good morning America?
SS (01:46):
RV (02:33):
Oh, we love frameworks. We love frameworks. Yes.
SS (02:36):
OK, great. So, you know, imagine a pyramid, a triangle at the bottom of the pyramid that is your home base, that is your online presence, right? That’s your personal brand. Cause the first thing that people are gonna do when they hear about you, whether it’s Oprah’s producers or someone else is Google you, and if they Google you and nothing shows up, then they’re not gonna
SS (02:54):
Like exactly. Right. So even just having like a solid website, a social media presence with content like that is step one, right? To really like be present online. And then step two is guest posting. Cause that’s a natural extension from writing content on social media or your blog or your newsletter. So now you’re sharing that same content, but on third party website so that other people can see you. And the great thing about guest posting is oftentimes you can include a link back to your website, right? So that’s good for SEO. It can be good for list building. You know, if you can link up to a lead magnet and there are some amazing places like Forbes, mind, body green that are built on this model of guest posting thrive global, right? All these different places. So that would be the second layer of the publicity pyramid. And then the
RV (03:42):
Third before you, so before you go onto the third one, which as I do wanna hear this, but I will say like, you know, we’ve been on Fox, we’ve been on good morning, America, we’ve been on Fox and friends. We’ve been on, you know, several local. I will say I would rather have a online article with a link to my site than I would be on good morning, America. Like the power of an article that people can read. I mean, being on good morning, America and stuff helps a bunch with credibility, but it’s mostly, it’s kind of like you drive for show and you put for dough and golf. Like most of the national TV is like the publicity perception. Yeah. But when it comes to driving traffic and sales and leads, man, I love a link. I wanna a link
SS (04:31):
Yeah. I’m still on the same page. And that’s, you know, how I started, like following this publicity pyramid framework where, you know, I had my website and you know, my social media, but then I was writing articles and writing guest posts, including writing guest posts for influencers who yeah. You know, mail the guest posts, like to their email list. And that’s how I got, you know, my first gosh, like maybe 2000 subscribers through that strategy. Wow. Yeah. So guest posts,
RV (04:57):
Your first 2000 email, like in your database came from just putting articles on other people’s sites.
SS (05:05):
Exactly. Yeah. So that was my, you know, starting point for really like getting my name out there to the public. And then from there, the next level is podcast interviews and video interviews or guest teaching would also fall into this category. You know, when you’re getting started as an expert, you wanna start with, you know, sharing your ideas through it in content, and eventually then you’re gonna have these back and forth conversations with people. Now, this is really where I hang out on the publicity pyramid because, you know, even though podcasts or doing guest teaching, it can be more niche, but these are people that are raising their hands saying, yes, I wanna be in the room. Or I wanna be listening to this conversation and learning 30 minutes or an hour. Those are the same kinds of people that buy online courses and coaching programs. So that’s really, you know, where I primarily hang out and maybe, you know, a certain podcast might not have the brand name recognition of as Forbes, but again, not all publicity is created equal and it’s not just about the branding. It’s about are my ideal clients who are right for my offers hanging out there.
RV (06:05):
Totally. Yeah. I mean that, I think this is a great example. Like you’re, you, you likely would get more clients from this podcast than probably from a national TV thing because it’s like, you know, there’s a random smattering of people listening, but you know, I, well, something you just said, I’ve never really thought about, which I love is when someone listens to a podcast mm-hmm,
SS (06:47):
Yeah.
RV (06:48):
All right. So is there a step four?
SS (06:50):
Yeah, there’s four. There’s the next level? There’s four and five. Okay. So now we’re moving up, the publicity here, we’re getting more mainstream, so that’s gonna be magazines and, you know, magazines are powerful because people read magazines on the plane at the beach or the dentists office. Like you’re literally getting in front of millions of people. That being said with magazines, typically when you’re being mentioned in a magazine or featured, it’s usually, you know, your expertise, a quote versus like a fully written piece by you. Yeah. So you’re reaching millions, but it’s you know, less in depth. Right. And then with TV, which is at the top of the publicity pyramid, because it tends to be harder to get on TV than to get a podcast interview. That being said, as we move up, we’re reaching more people. But it can be less in depth. Like for example, a lot of TV interviews are just three or four minutes long. Yeah. So it’s kinda really
RV (07:41):
Powerful, even if you’re Tony Robbins like Tony, even if you’re Tony Robbins, you get you Dave Ramsey, you get four minutes and you’re out.
SS (07:48):
Exactly. Yeah. So, I mean, it’s a huge credibility builder to say you’re on good morning, America or CNN. And all of that. And it can be, you know, powerful if you’re spreading your message to the masses with like a mass product, whether it’s a book, an iPhone app or some kind of physical product. So it really depends on, you know, is your message one really for the mainstream mainstream masses, or are you going for a more niche audience? And then also like considering where do you really shine? You know, for some people they really wanna stick to the written word and that’s really where their magic comes out for other people like videos where it’s at. So but I would say in terms of like the law of least effort, the most natural path, it would be building out some basic online presence then going into guest posting then podcasting. And then if you want to moving your way up to magazines and TV.
RV (08:38):
Yeah. It’s interesting. You know, just that whole, this whole conversation that you just went through, which I love the publicity pyramid is what you call it Uhhuh. So, so great. Such a simple framework is so powerful is, you know, people go, oh, magazines and TV is so sexy, but like you’re gonna get way more business from podcasts and guest posting mm-hmm
RV (09:34):
They’re super credible, you know? Or they’re like, you know, some world renowned person in, in, in their field. Yeah. You know, or they’re like famous for, for whatever. And in TV a lot of times it’s like, oh yeah, of course they’re gonna have Brad pit or whoever on there for something. But when it comes to featuring books, I’m often surprised that if you’re a mainstream person, it’s not an automatic laydown they might not have Gary Vayner Chuck on just because it’s Gary Vayner, Chuck, sometimes they do. But a lot of times they have newer authors on or people that I, that you haven’t heard of. In other words, it’s, it feels more random in terms of the, in terms of the selection. It’s not like, oh, this person checks every single box. And so they get invited on this huge show. It’s a little bit of that, but I, you know, a lot of times they they’ll, they’ll grab people that are like newer. I mean, I got on Fox and friends as a first time author. Like the week after my first book came out was my first national TV appearance. And I was like, well, that’s random. Like what are they doing with, what are they doing with me? So like, how do, is there anything you can speak to until like, how do you get those spots? Do, is there anything they are looking for or not looking for? Like for TV specifically?
SS (10:48):
Yeah. I mean, I would say, you know, you wanna differentiate between local news and national news because for local TV they have a responsibility to share the stories and ideas of local experts. So, you know, if you’re an author, you know, think about, well, what cities am I connected to? Where was I born? Where did I go to college? Where have I worked? Where am I living
RV (11:09):
Now? Oh, that’s good.
SS (11:10):
Right. So I would identify all those places and really start with those markets. Because if you can mention your local connection, then you’re kind of at the top of the priority list. So that’s, you know, that’s important. And I would say that before you go on national TV, I mean, that’s incredible that, you know, you were on these national shows, but I also think a big part of it is that you done an amazing job of building your personal brand, that they, they probably had confidence that, you know, you were good on video, but I will say for national TV, they’re gonna wanna see that someone has ideally been on local TV first. Because you know, just cuz someone’s good at the podcast interview doesn’t mean that they’re gonna be good at TV. They’re gonna consider like, you know, do they have a great setup with lighting?
SS (11:52):
Can they, they speak in soundbites because some people, yeah, they can talk on a 30 minute or one hour podcast interview, but can you speak succinctly in a four minute interview? So there’s a lot more at stake and it’s not like with podcast interviews where they’re gonna be editing it later, like you kind of gotta get it right at the first shop. So I will say for like the big leagues, like the big national outlets they’re definitely doing the research in terms of what that person’s personal brand is. Have they done TV before? Are they confident? Do they, you know, smile? Are they presentable? So I would say the first stop is really, you know, to start with local news. And then once you have those TV clips, then when you’re sending in your pitch, you wanna share that so they can see, you know, you have that experience.
RV (12:34):
That’s so good. And, and that, that is, that is so true. Selena that like, you know, I love podcasts. I feel so super at home on podcast. TV goes so fast, it’s it? It four minutes blows by and it’s like, you don’t have time for a setup. There’s no time for backstory. It’s like, you just gotta deliver sound bites. They gotta be tight and sharp. It’s, it’s a different, it’s a different, it’s a different skillset. And, and being on local TV is, is, is, is huge. I love that tip about too, you know, what’s your connection to local. And I would, I would, I would tell somebody, listening, you know, you think you wanna be on good morning America right now, but you actually don’t, you, you don’t want to be on there until you’re ready for it, which is until you’ve had some, you’ve had some reps at local TV, you have the sound bites and like your website is ready for it. And you’re like prepared to like receive that traffic and capture. But yeah, TV is a TV is a is a, is a different beast.
SS (13:38):
And the other thing that I will say is with TV, like they’re really looking to capture people’s interests, you know, with visuals, right. Cause you’re watching TV. So, you know, if you have good role of you, you know, I don’t know, working with clients or if you have like live exercise that the TV audience can do, like those are gonna be things that are interesting if you’re just a talking head like, and it’s just, you know, all they’re seeing is someone talking for four minutes straight. It’s not as interesting. So just know that when the producers are thinking about, well, I have a person on their show, they’re gonna think about not just what are the words are gonna kind of the person’s mouth, but is there something that the person that can share that can capture visual interest or is there activity that would be engaging to the audience?
RV (14:21):
Gosh, that’s so simple, but that’s, that makes so, so much sense. So when you make a pitch, would you include notes about like B roll that you would show or like a, if there’s a visual or something?
SS (14:33):
Yeah. So if you were say a love coach and you were pitching you know, you could talk about, you know, that you have clients that could come onto the show or you have like B role of you working with clients and so forth, or maybe there’s like an activity for someone to do to attract, you know, their soulmate. And maybe you would write out like what the activity activity would look like. Like maybe they need to have a journal that they did. They, they journal in 30 days and you would like mention all these different props so that the segment would look very dynamic where there’d be the talking head, but there would also be props and activities involved.
RV (15:06):
Yeah. That, and that’s why you see probably all the time you see like chefs on there, cuz it’s very visual. Cause they can cut and show the food and like show, show all the stuff. So it’s almost like you, when you’re pitching for TV, what I hear you saying is it’s like, you’re not even just pitching like the content of what you’re gonna say. Yeah. But almost like you’re pitching, think of it as pitching a segment to them of like how this could fold out visually and that makes it an easier. Yes.
SS (15:34):
Yeah, exactly. I mean, you know, TV producers are so busy and, you know, think about like with a podcast, there’ll be a certain number of episodes that are released, you know, per month, but TV, I mean it’s kind of 24 7, right. It’s every day. So they constantly need new content. They need to keep it interesting. So if you, as an expert can pitch yourself or as a publicist pitch, you and you’re kind of like mapping out what this segment could look like. You’re presenting something on a silver platter and making it easier for them to say yes. So when there’s so many options, of course we’re gonna say yes to the person who makes our job easy for us.
RV (16:08):
Mm-Hmm
SS (16:56):
That’s such a great question. So I think it’s important to get clear on with your expert topics. Are they niche or are they mainstream? So when I’m speaking of expert topics, it’s like the things that you wanna be known for. And I know a lot of entrepreneurs can be multi passionate at the end of the day. You wanna hone in on a few key things. So for example, at one point I had a business mastermind and people in the mastermind would ask me questions about scaling their business and you know, if they should hire a senior project manager, well, if I started getting bored of my regular expert topic and just wanted a podcast talking about how to grow your team, well then people are gonna circle back and be like, oh, I wanna work with you to grow my team. But like my mastermind is something that maybe is only four 20 people.
SS (17:39):
Whereas with my programs, let’s say I have 500 people you know, in a particular group program. Right. So my primary group program has been a program called impacting millions and that’s about publicity. So if my intention was, I wanna get people enrolled to my publicity program, then what I’m talking about in the media should match my offerings. Right? So looking at your own business, what’s the 80 20, what does the majority of revenue come from? Which offering will, you know, based on that offering, that should be what your expert topic is. And so when you look at your expert topic, is it mainstream or niche? So for publicity, I would consider that to be a niche topic. For me, a mainstream topic is something that applies to most people. For example, if I was to talk about being an introvert, well, you know, half of the population are introverts like approximately.
SS (18:27):
So that would be mainstream. Or if I were talking about networking or relationship building that applies to everyone, whether you’re a student at college or you have, you know, professional job or you’re an entrepreneur, whereas publicity typically, you know, it applies to entrepreneurs who are building their personal brands. So that’s a bit more niche. So knowing that with my offerings, I’m looking for a niche audience, not just kind of anybody I’m gonna target more niche media. So it might not have the same reach, but it’s gonna help me get in front of the right people. So those are the things I consider. But then there’s also, you know, there is a role for just personal brand building in terms of media. You know, there are certain brand names that are very recognizable, like Forbes and business insider. And so, you know, being featured in those outlets can also be really powerful whether or not your ideal client has actually read the article that you’re featured in.
SS (19:23):
But if they just see those media logos on, you know, your site, they see you as a credible expert. And the other thing that you can do with your email list is when you get your media features, you know, put them in front of them, you can add them to your email nurture sequence. You know, you can add those, you know, media logos and trust symbols next to you know, places where people opt in or, you know, make purchasing decisions. So I think that when it comes to publicity, it’s sort of multifaceted. I would say primarily you wanna get in front of people who are your ideal clients, but there is also something to be said about prestige media as well.
RV (19:58):
Yeah, that, I mean, I, I love that. And I agree with that so much. The I have found that most of the major national stuff, the real, the primarily the only real value of the media appearance is how you repurpose the appearance, basically putting it on your website. Also those of you that are speakers, you know, in your demo videos, or even if you’re a coach and you’re not a speaker, you could still have like a little, you know, little bio video. And I’m just pulling up, I’m pulling up a data point on this just for everybody. So one of the things that we did Selena was we led this trends in personal branding, national research study. And we we partnered with this PhD led research firm. And we asked, you know, all these different questions, but one of the questions was how important are each of the following when it comes to paying someone more for a product or service.
RV (20:58):
So I just wanna put a data point here behind something that Sina is saying. So, and we asked you have a, a Ted talk, a New York times bestselling book, a wall street journal, bestselling book a social media file. I’ll go ahead and show this on the screen for those of you that are watch watching this on YouTube. So I had to, I had to pull it up quick. So page 60 of our, of our report which is free, y’all know that you can, you can download this at on brand builders, group.com. But the number one thing that clients say they’re willing to pay more money for is when they see testimonials from their, from their customers. The second is that they’re paid to consult or speak, but the fourth. So this is a list of like 20 things, the fourth, and this is waited to the us census.
RV (21:49):
52% of Americans say they are more likely to pay more money to, to buy a product or service from someone who has been featured in the media as an expert. So that is an actual data point that is supporting what Selena is saying. And of course, we’ve, we’ve talked about this study in other times. And usually the point we make is actually the average pub person in the public doesn’t care that much about a New York times bestselling book or a wall street journal or a viral, you know, Ted talk, they care about testimonials and they care about, are you being paid to speak or, or consult. And then the fourth is that they care are that you’re appearing in the media. 52% of Americans say, they’ll pay you more money just because you have those logos on your site. So like Selena, that is amazing. Like, what do you call it? Prestige? Is that what you called it? Prestige. Pre
SS (22:45):
Prestige. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-Hmm
RV (22:48):
I love that. So prestige PR, so that’s really, really cool. And so the mainstream stuff too, is like, you know, so it’s like money, sex, careers relationships, like, you know, self
SS (23:03):
Productivity, success,
RV (23:04):
Productivity. Yeah. Those mm-hmm
SS (24:08):
I think it’s the same thing. Like having media, it builds your credibility as a go to expert, as you said, people are willing to pay you more, but also people are more interested inviting you to come in to be a speaker at their event. You know, there’s just more trust or more likely to take the meeting. Right? One of the first things that anyone does, you know, before they respond to someone or say yes to a request is they do a quick Google search on them. And when they land on their website, if they see media logos, it’s like, okay, this person is the real deal. And it just also shows that like, you’re taking your work seriously. If someone is just like quietly, you know, doing their work, but they’re not out there sharing their ideas. They’re not building that body of work. They’re not really seen as the real deal. So I would say that media is the ultimate credibility marker. It’s something that every person understands. Whereas if you’re like, oh, I had a webinar with, you know, a thousand people on people don’t really know what that means, but they understand what it means to be featured in a top, you know, magazine, newspaper, podcast, and so forth.
RV (25:07):
Yeah. Yeah. It is. It’s definitely this like universal credibility indicator. I, I I know we’re wrapping up one thing I wanna do how do you find these people? Okay. So, so let’s say, I mean, of course you could hire a publicist and then when you hire a publicist, you’re sort of treading off of that. They already have contact information and relationships with people, and that’s really what you’re paying for. You know, when you, I, I feel like when you hire a publicist, you’re paying for someone who has the contact information readily available and who has relationships to make that for you? They don’t, none of them guarantee results. Yeah. And and they get varying results partly based on their relationship, but largely based on your position in the marketplace. But if you’re gonna do it yourself and, and we’ve, we’ve actually had a lot of people be very successful doing it themselves. I, it how, how do you find the outlets? Like how do you find the people? I mean, do you basically just go to Google or like there anything specific you’re typing in to like find the right person to pitch to?
SS (26:13):
Yeah. I think the first step is figuring out what are the right media outlets for me. So I can share like a couple of very quick strategies that I think will help people a lot. So one of my favorite techniques is called the follow, the leader technique. That’s something that I created. Yeah. So getting clear on, okay, what’s my expert topic. So let’s say someone’s expert topic was, you know, public speaking then they wanna think about who are some other leaders either in their industry or connected to them, right. So they might be looking at well, who else is teaching on visibility? Maybe it’s a publicity expert. Maybe it’s a public speaking coach. Maybe it’s someone that specializes in getting people Ted talks, right. And then doing a Google search on them and seeing what kind of media they’ve been featured in, you know, maybe going to their website and seeing if their media page or even going to specialize search engine.
SS (27:05):
So there’s a search engine called listen, notes.com.com it’s for podcasts. And so if you type in someone’s name into that search engine, within moments, all the podcasts that they’ve been featured on are gonna come up. So if you do that exercise with five people in your industry in no time, you’re gonna have a media list of dozens of targeted outlets that top leaders in your industry have been featured in. And so these are places that you’ll wanna be considering for your own media list. So, you know, using the fall a leader technique is super, super powerful. Also even doing things like leveraging existing research, if you wanna be on top business podcast, literally type into Google, a top business podcast, and people have compiled the top 20, the top 50, the top, you know, a hundred business podcasts. And you can leverage that existing research to start building your own personal media list.
RV (27:55):
Yeah, that’s funny. Yeah. That’s how I, that’s how I met Celine. Actually, she was doing a four podcast on the top personal brand. No, I think it was top podcast for business and, and somebody. Yeah. John Lee Dumas introduced her to us. So that was actually, she put an article together, which was an amazing article. Yeah. And yeah, you mentioned listen notes, which is a great one because that is I was gonna, I was gonna mention, I was gonna mention that there’s another really great tool and I’m trying to remember what it is that will tell you that’s kind of similar listen notes is the best for podcasts for sure. There’s another one that you can like search by topic and it will tell you all of the people who are spark Toro, have you heard of spark Toro?
SS (28:49):
No, I feel like I need to write this down.
RV (28:51):
SS (29:54):
Absolutely. So the thing I’m most excited to share is my 12 month publicity calendar, because when it comes to getting to the media, there’s a few things that you need to understand. First of all, like what kinds of story ideas are they looking for? And one of the things that they’re looking for are timely story ideas. So every single month there are certain themes. And if you can hit on these themes, you’re more likely to get accepted onto podcasts, onto TV, in magazines and so forth. So I have a 12 month media calendar it’s full of 40 pages worth of store ideas, special hooks and dates to help you get into the media. And you love it. Yeah. Impacting millions.com/calendar. And people have used this to not just map out their publicity plans for the year, but they’ve also used it to map out their social media content, their newsletter content. So people can go ahead and get an impacting millions.com/calendar. This took me like a ridiculous number of hours to put together. And it’s 40 pages worth of time saving tips and resources and dates to help you get into the media. So you can go ahead and check it [email protected] slash calendar
RV (30:59):
Genius. I we don’t even have an affiliate link for this, but I went and did it myself. Great lead magnet, so useful and so practical because yeah, it gives you a way, like, all you need to know is what are the topics they’re interested in every month and then just like position what you do to that. Fantastic. So I’m downloading that we’ll put a link to impacting millions.com in the show notes slash slash calendar, impacting millions.com/calendar. You guys can check it out make sure you follow Selena online and send her some love. If you picked up some tips, let her know that you found her from our crew here. And gosh, Selena, this is just so cool. And I’m so great. I’m so glad to finally meet you in person. You, you are an example of your reputation procedures, you, and that’s what we want all of our clients to be. It’s what we try to aspire to be. And you got great tips, a great lead magnet, just, you know, I love it. So we wish you, we wish you the best. Thanks for coming.
SS (32:00):
Thanks so much.
Ep 317: Be a Better Negotiator with Mori Taheripour | Recap Episode
AJV (00:02):
All right. Y’all welcome to my recap on my conversation with Mori TaheripourAnd y’all, she’s just so cool. If you haven’t please go check out the full episode. But this is an episode full of tactical and mindset tactics when it comes to being a better negotiator, but also knowing when and how to publish a book. So we kind of got a, a twofer in this one.
AJV (01:04):
And then we get to learn about the content, which is the skillful art of negotiation. So with us that I’m gonna share my my top three takeaways from my conversation with ma and I just think she’s so wicked cool. Y’all she’s done so many amazing things, but more than that, she’s just had a heart for teaching and a passion for helping others believe in themselves more and believe in their abilities and who doesn’t love that. Right. So here are my my top three takeaways. So here was my first one. I actually, I got to have a little coaching session during this interview. So if you’re interested in seeing that or listening to that go check it out. It’s it’s worth the interview. She called me out hardcore. So that was like my first big takeaway is that our view, our perception of how the conversation is gonna go in this case, a negotiation conversation has much to do with the end result.
AJV (01:59):
And so I made a comment how I have a pretty potentially difficult meeting coming up about some financial negotiations with someone. And I use the words if I have a fighting chance and she called me out so hardcore, and she was like, why would you say that? And then it just, it doled me in a second. It’s like I have a negative view of negotiations, which is interesting because in a sales environment, I would never have that view, but in a, a salary and you know, an employee conversation, it’s like feels like a little bit of a war of defending my stance or not making someone feel like they’re not worth it at the same time, being reasonable with what we can afford and was a really helpful conversation of going, there’s no fighting here. This is not an argument. This is a conversation. And that was so helpful
AJV (02:59):
Of the way that we view things ends up our ends up dictating how the actual conversation goes and the end result of it. And it’s like, I was going in with this concept. If it was a battle, this is not a battle. This is a conversation with someone that I truly like respect value. That’s not a battle to conversation. So just changing your mindset and the way you can talk about things. I really like, I I’m tell you, I woke up today with a completely different mindset of how this conversation’s gonna start, go and end. That was different than yesterday, which is short conversation with Maria. It was so helpful. Also reminded me to finish the book
AJV (03:48):
She said that, well, this is my perception. This is my this is how I heard what she said. Some of these may not have been her words, but this is how I interpreted what she said in our conversation. And she said, negotiation is not confrontation. Negotiation is collaboration y’all but is so good. It’s like, if I can change my mindset, both in a sales oriented environment, a recruiting, hiring retention salary pay, pay, raise commission conversation, as well as, you know, as a, as a, as a customer, right? Who I’m trying to negotiate better, better rates or better deals with our vendors. Right. But if I view all of that as like, let’s come together and collaborate of what makes sense, what’s worth it to both parties. What’s a win-win versus there’s some sort of confrontation that has to take place and I’ve got to, you know, take my stance.
AJV (04:49):
So there, so do they’s like if we come from a place of being immobile, there is no negotiation. So negotiation is not about confrontation. It’s about collaboration. It’s about having a conversation where both parties leave feeling good about the situation. And that is what I want. And I bet that’s what you want. So it’s just redefining what is negotiation? It, it’s a conversation of trying to find middle ground amongst two people in a setting doesn’t even have to be a business setting. I negotiate with my five and two year old, all day long, and they are master negotiators. They do not hear no. I need to take a note out of the toddler playbook when it comes to this. But they come at it with a playful heart, a big smile on their face, but Ooh, do they know how to, like, just one more time?
AJV (05:34):
It’s like my two year old Liam constantly wants treats. He loves treats. He loves snacks. He loves treats. He’s like, oh my gosh, no, you cannot have any more lollipops kid. And he’s always just like, just a little bit. And I’m like, no, baby, not just, just a little bit mommy. And then I’ll say, okay, well just a little bit. And he goes a lot of bit mommy. And it’s like, he just is like, just a little bit, just a little bit, well, a lot, a bit. And it’s like, it’s just coming from a place of love and community and trust and playfulness, but also it’s like knowing what you want. So that’s my third takeaway. And this conversation and this, this has to do with both publishing and negotiation. But I loved what she said when she goes, it’s like, you’re never gonna get what you want until, you know what you want.
AJV (06:23):
AJV (07:03):
And I thought that was really powerful as a reminder of like, no, the book is the last thing, not the first thing. You do so much more before you ever figure out what do I really have to say? And that’s what goes in the book. And she said, a part of that is you have to know what you want. Right. You have to know that and then find a way to get there. And part of that conversation was setting up your non-negotiables, like, what are the non-negotiables that you have in your life, both personally and professionally. And I asked her what hers were and I thought they were so good. They’re at the very end of the interview. So I’m not gonna tell you what they are. You’ve gotta go listen to the interview to hear ’em. But I’ve spent a ton of time in the last 24 hours going do I, do I have non-negotiables in my life?
AJV (07:46):
And am I, am I really clear on them as a leader, as a business owner, as an entrepreneur, as my personal brand, as a mom, as a wife, as a human being, as a Christian, like, have I set forth, what are my non-negotiables that everything else is negotiated around and you gotta have those, right. And it’s like, I think one of the things I need to reset are like, what are my schedule? Non-Negotiables what will I allow and not allow to come into my schedule that will get me off track to the things that I deem most important. And that was just a really big one. And I think other ones are around, you know, I’ve got business ones, personal ones, marriage ones parenting ones. But am I super clear on what they are and do other people know what they are?
AJV (08:28):
And do I, do I live by those? Do I parent and work and conversate around those? Probably not. It was an amazing discussion. It doesn’t matter where you are in business or personal brand or just your, you know, personal life. Those are really valuable. And all in the context of negotiation collaboration and conversation. Y’all so good. I could go on for another 30 minutes on this legitimately. It was so good. So go check out the full interview check out more. I check out her book, bring yourself and stay tuned and we’ll see you next time on the influential personal brand.
Ep 316: Be a Better Negotiator with Mori Taheripour
AJV (00:00:02):
Hey everybody. And welcome to another episode on the influential personal brand. So excited to have a fellow what I’m gonna say, learner teacher, student coach speaker consultant, author on the show today Mori was referred to me by a super good friend of mine. And although Mori and I are relatively new friends, we’ve got a really awesome friends in common. And I’m, it got introduced to her. And then I was so privileged to get a copy of her book that I’ve started reading. I think I’m on, like, I don’t know, maybe a third of the way through also holding it upside down right now. I am. There you go.
AJV (00:00:44):
And just love this. I’m so excited to get to talk about the book today, but to give you a little bit of a professional highlights of ma and her background, I’m here to some things credential that maybe you would wanna know. I think these are really cool things. But here’s like, I would say generally speaking, we’re gonna talk a lot about today. A lot about negotiation today and Mori is a negotiation expert and she has worked with some of the most iconic sports leagues, fortune 100 corporations. But she’s also a teacher at the Wharton school of a business. She’s also been on some major media outlets, including ESPN forms, Inc money NPR. Like I could go on and on with professional accomplishments, but we were just having this conversation about how our bios are such a teeny tiny part of who we are, and they really don’t give the full spectrum of who we are as individuals.
AJV (00:01:43):
Just some professional accomplishments along the way. And so two quick things, one Mori, welcome to the show and two I’m, this is my chance to let you introduce yourself and who you really are by helping our audience get to know you. And so here’s my first question for you. So here’s your introduction to the show and our audience. And here’s what we wanna know. We wanna know, how did you go from, let’s just say college graduate to all of these amazing things that you’ve done to most recently launching this awesome book about negotiation. So we wanna know how’d you do it
MT (00:02:27):
Well, first of all, let me just say J thank you for having me on the show, whatever it is you drink in the morning, I’ll have even half of it, even half of it would probably help. So your en your energy is awesome. Thank you for having me here. So I don’t really wanna go into like the really lengthy explanation of it, because I feel like there’s chapters of my life. I would say the first one is really all the way through college. And probably a few years thereafter the daughter of Iranian immigrants much like all the other sort of immigrants, immigrant stories, your parents have all these dreams and ambitions for you. They want the very best life for you. They take all those risks and they leave behind what they know to promote for the hope and promise of a better life for you.
MT (00:03:18):
And so, especially sort of this, what I call Iranian guilt, you know, we sort of carried this weight with us, knowing all that’s been sacrificed for you. And that sort of followed me from college. My father wanted me to be a doctor the youngest of three kids and the first two did not go that route. So I was like the last promise. Right. And, and so almost like living my life in a pre-programmed kind of a way I, I really didn’t even question it. And I went through college. All I knew was that I was not very good at the very thing I was supposed to be doing. Right. So it was, the sciences were always so hard, you know, kind of forced my interest in a lot of them, but it was like, don’t look right. Don’t look left, just look straight ahead.
MT (00:04:02):
This is what you’re supposed to do. And, you know, when I, when I graduated college and took the MCATs twice, by the way I was like, alright, wait a minute. This is not a, I’m not good at this. And two, I, I B I don’t even know if this is something that I enjoy all that much. What I did enjoy was helping people. What I did enjoy through all the, sort of the, the jobs that I’d had through like work study in college and the working in different doctor’s offices. And then really my last job was at St. Louis hospital in New York and Harlem, and working in the sickle cell unit and, you know, sort of really understanding in some ways that it was public health that I really enjoyed. And that was sort of like helping people at a macro level, not a micro level.
MT (00:04:47):
And so, you know, there was some of that in my spirit. I just knew that being a doctor wasn’t it. And so went through a lot of difference where I volunteered at a amazing organizations organization working with really high risk individuals drug users sex workers, and were, I did basically HIV test counseling. So I was the person that spoke to them beforehand to get them tested. And I spoke to them afterwards to get them their results. Wow. Was right.
MT (00:05:42):
And I enjoyed that very much. So, so fast forward that I continued to work in public health for several years, moved on to the public health department. And after a few years had the great privilege of starting this program that, that helped pregnant women who were at risk for HIV aids. And this is I’m kind of going down this route because it is important. But this program that I started kind of took off and it was, you know, the, the, the weight was fashioned was that it was basically supposed to sort of democratize access to HIV testing for people, for pregnant women, no matter if their race, religion, color, whatever it was. And only to be able to understand that they were HIV positive so that they can take the medications to help prevent the transmission of HIV from mother to child.
MT (00:06:33):
And it was extraordinary, right? Again, like this was the first big breakthrough we had had in HIV aids. And again, you feel like you’re doing something that’s meaningful that you could be proud of. It sort of set my soul in its own way. State of California came to me and I said, the great program. We’d like to do this statewide. And here’s like a bunch money for you to do it. And but we want you to do it. So, and I just applied to business school after like all that, the understanding that I was not gonna go to med school, that I sort of found my niche, I was ready to go to business school. And then I get this opportunity and I thought business school can wait. Here’s an opportunity to do something on my own. And so I left the public health department and launched my company at that point as sort of my first sort of entrepreneurial venture. And, and what we did was basically a lot of education and social marketing campaigns, a really big level for like the CDC and others. And so I was like that entrepreneur that got handed money and I was like, wow, this was easy. Like, you know, this is
AJV (00:07:41):
Like, what’s
MT (00:07:42):
So hard about this
AJV (00:07:45):
Bunch of babies.
MT (00:07:46):
Exactly. But I do remember the conversation with my mom because my mom said, okay, you didn’t go to med school. You know, now you’re, you got into business school now you’re gonna do this. And yeah, there was, there was quite a bit of disappointment in that conversation, but I remember telling her that I’m not afraid. I mean, what’s the worst that could happen. Mom, I’ll be like the most educated waitress on the face of planet. Right. Like that’s what I would go to. Right. Because I realized that I really wasn’t afraid, like there was no fear in making that decision at that point. And maybe it’s because I had sort of taken care of myself always, but I thought what’s the worst that could happen. And that was sort of the beginning of this entrepreneurial journey. Now my career’s gone completely a different way, but I think it’s not having fear at that outset that has sort of that’s, that’s the one thing that sort of stayed with me all throughout my life. It was the whole notion of what’s the worst that could happen. Just do
AJV (00:08:41):
It. I wanna pause and talk about that a minute, because I really believe that fear ultimately is what holds most of us back from living out our, our calling and our purpose. Right. It’s like, we get so comfortable where we are that we don’t take the risk because we’re, we’re afraid. Like what if it doesn’t go well? And what, whatever. So I’m so curious, like where did that come from? How did you cultivate that? I mean, is that something you were born with? Like, where did this unabashed lack of fear come from that allows you to do things that others don’t?
MT (00:09:20):
I think a couple of things, the first was sort of like, it was that big fear of having that conversation with my parents to begin with that said, Hey, I don’t wanna be a doctor. I think I feared that for so long that once I had the conversation and I sort of set myself free, then it was like, I don’t know if there was anything else that I feared more than disappointing them, if that makes any sense. So everything else sort of pales to comparison in some way, I thought, I thought, oh my God, I feared that for so long. And all right, what happened? Yes, they’re disappointed, but you know, I’m still time standing. Right. And I’m now able to maybe pursue what I really wanna pursue. So the freedom from that, despite the, all the disappointment, I think if I, if I really had to think about it was the, the one thing that said, look, it all kind of works out.
MT (00:10:07):
Maybe it’s not perfect. Maybe it’s not exactly what you want it to be, but it works out because you have the wherewithal to sort of get through the lowest of the low. The other part of it is like having money or not having it or losing it never really scared me. I kind of felt like it was something that you just sort of could make up for. And I was very serious. I, I had waitress through college, one of the best jobs I ever had. I was like, if that’s what it takes, if all hell all else goes to, to hell in a hand basket, that’s what I’m gonna do. And I was, I think it was some level of sort of humility or maybe survival mechanisms. I don’t know, but that kicked in really early. And I think actually not putting so much emphasis on the, where am I gonna get money? Where am I, how am I gonna survive? Not really thinking about that, but in some, maybe it was some naive way thinking it’s, it’s gonna work out some way that sort of freed me up. I think one of the bigger, bigger, or hurdles that a lot of entrepreneurs, particularly, I think people who have a family to take care of, right. That they have other responsibilities. It was me. And so that, that, you know, maybe was an unfair advantage that I had as well. I just really had myself to sort of take care of,
AJV (00:11:23):
You know, it’s interesting in our last conversation, you said something that really resonated with me because it’s a core belief. Like one of the things that, you know, is kind of like one of my life mantras is that people care much more about who you are than what you do. And one of the things that I asked you on our first conversation was, you know, what’s, what’s something that you wish people knew about you. And I had written this down from my notes in our last call and you wrote down, I want them to know that I am not my work, but I am not my work. And I’m just curious, like how much of this lack of fear really comes from you have a really clear disassociation from your self worth and how that’s connected to your profession.
MT (00:12:08):
It’s not been easy. I’ve learned a lot of my lessons, the really hard way as evidenced by all the stories I tell of my book, I mean, lots of scars and lots of bruises. There’s been some really low lows. And you know, in, in my company, for example we, we, we have sort of, I’ve never lived through this before, as none of us have really a pandemic, but we had, you know, shortly after the, well, whoa, this was really easy. Was the.com crash. I was like, oh no, no, it really wasn’t. And then, you know, then we had the great recession of 2007, 2009, and being an entrepreneur, having to lay people off wor worried about, are you gonna get another contract? You know? So all of that, the really low lows of sort of that economic downturn, you know, I’ve, I’ve gone through that.
MT (00:12:58):
And so there were on those occasions, you know, again, the disappointment of sort of family, right. And, and I always knowing that I didn’t never want to go back and say you were right. I should have never done this. I never wanted to regret that. And so maybe it was the fear of, of failure that drove me in some ways, but with every one of those, those challenges and some I got through and, and it was okay. And some I got through and, you know, heart heartache and breaking up with a, a business partner who had been a friend for so long. And, you know, I would say I’ve never been married, but that was a really bad divorce. And you know, what I realized is that if I continued to sort of tie who I was with, what I did as a profession, then I would’ve been broken.
MT (00:13:51):
Yeah. Right. Or, or that got me kind of emotional. I would’ve broken a whole lot through my life and that was not an option. And the fact that I, I got through it and I didn’t allow myself to be defined by those struggles though, a lot easier said than said now, but it took a lot of sort of self love and, and, and changing my own narrative, you know? So I don’t want anybody to think this is easy. It’s, it’s a life lifelong struggle, honestly. But the more, as strange as it sounds, the more scars I got, the more bruises I got, the more hits that came my way. And I just kept getting up. Mm-Hmm
AJV (00:15:18):
I think that is such a instrumental and fun, a fundamentally necessary just awareness that we have to have is human beings, much less entrepreneurs or anyone who’s out there it’s like building a personal brand. It’s like, you know, I think the beautiful thing about building a personal brand is it really is about your message, not what you do, it’s about what you believe and right. Who you are and what you stand for. Not about, you know, and that’s why I said, it’s like, you know, we both kind of have this distaste for bios. Right. And I think that’s that, it’s like, what does that have to do with like who I am?
MT (00:15:56):
Exactly.
AJV (00:15:58):
And it’s so funny it’s I was at a recent conference with my husband and at this conference, they were handing out these what do you call ’em lanyards, right. And the lanyards have your name on them. And so my husband gets this lanyard and it says, Rory Vaden, CS, PSA.
AJV (00:16:23):
And it was like, like three other letters. And I was like, what are all of these letters? And it’s like, I took this lanyard and I like marked through all of them and just wrote D a D
AJV (00:17:07):
And it’s like, that’s gonna stick with me and to be a constant reminder of like, work, like the work we do is hard. Right. It’s like, you’re, you’re in the public face. It’s like, and you you’re laying it out. Like, you know, it’s like holding MA’s book. It’s like, you’re putting it out there. Right. You’re, you’re wearing your heart and your life on your sleeve when we, we dedicate our message to sharing it with the world. And so, you know, one of the things that I hadn’t read down, and I’m so curious, and I’m always fascinated to hear this because if you’re listening and you’ve ever wondered, you know, what would it take for me to write a book or, you know, should I do it? It’s like, I think it’s really important to know. It’s like, it’s hard work and it is long tedious. It’s gonna suck the resources. And a lot of times the money right out of underneath you. And so here’s my first question for you. It’s like, at what point in your journey, right. Professionally and personally, did you figure out that you wanted to write a book? Like how did you know that? Like, and then why did you do it?
MT (00:18:10):
So we have to backtrack a little bit after that whole sort of the thing with my company. And I, I did eventually go back to business school anyway after five years of, of being in, in my company. And, and when I was getting ready to graduate, my, one of my professors who taught negotiations and was the chairman of that, the legal studies department at the time said I think you should teach. And I thought he had lost his mind.
MT (00:18:56):
And I, I said, all right, finally, I’ll give this a shot. Right. He said, just be my TA. And that’s how it all sort of started just to see what you think being on the other side of the classroom and not a student that was nearly 18 years ago. I’m, I’m still teaching at Wharton. Wow. But, but I say that to say that then sort of, I talked about my life in chapters, that next chapter was sort of teaching career began. I never imagined it. I had never, never, even in my wildest dreams thought I could do it or was capable of doing it. And it was because somebody saw something in me. I didn’t see in myself. And I always say that to entrepreneurs, especially because I feel like, you know, we’re not risk averse right. To begin with. And, and in a lot of ways obviously not taking ridiculous risks because I think a lot of entrepreneurs take quite calculated risks, but, but in terms of the pursuit of something that drives you that beyond which you have serving in your daily life, right.
MT (00:19:59):
That, that, that goal, that purpose, whatever it is, I think entrepreneurs are incredible in doing that. Right. They sort of jump off that cliff that many people would never dream of doing. For me teaching was that right. I, somebody else saw it and I was like, you know what, I’m gonna give this a shot. What’s the worst that could happen. Right. And it, it was that what sort of drew me obviously to even the subject of negotiations and when I sort of trusted myself, which took about three years to stand in front of a classroom and teach it my way, like teach it the way I saw negotiations, teach it from my perspective and that sort of opens up everything. I won my first teaching award, I would say the first year that I actually kind of ripped up my syllabus and started teaching it exactly the way I wanted to teach it.
MT (00:20:50):
And that sort of made all the difference in the world. So you start trusting yourself and then, and then kind of magic happens. The book so years after I started teaching, I got the opportunity to teach for Goldman Sachs and their 10,000 women’s program which is working with female entrepreneurs globally. It’s not Nashville program. And I helped launch the program in the American university, in Cairo, Egypt, and was there for like the first three cohorts, life changing, amazing female entrepreneurs, guts, conviction, all the, all of it. Right. And one of the people sort of high level at Goldman Sachs was sort of seen sort of the outcomes of that program. And, and was that actually for the first graduation of these women came to me after several years of me being in that program and then actually teaching in the 10,000 school business program, which is where I went to next, after that said, whatever it is you do in my classroom, I’m not really sure what it is, cause I haven’t sat in it, but something magical happens and something really special happens. Look at the way they respond to you, capture it in a book.
MT (00:22:03):
So here’s somebody else who says, you know, they see something in you. And I was never fancied myself to be an author. Didn’t even like writing. The best part of being premed was that I took tests. I didn’t have to write anything. Right. And so I was like, there’s just no way. And, and moreover, there’s like a billion negotiations books out there. What do I have to contribute? Yeah. And so I fought it again. Right. I didn’t trust it. And, and, and yet he sort of planted the seed and kept coming back to me about it. And it took first, it took about 10 years to get the book out, but that’s only because the first four years I negotiated against myself I was like, there’s no place for you that you don’t want a redundancy. You don’t wanna do something that’s already out there.
MT (00:22:48):
But then when I was like, wait a minute, but what these books say is so different than what you deliver. Mm-Hmm,
AJV (00:24:07):
You know, it’s interesting. I think there’s like a couple of things I wanna kind of like circle around is one I did, this is a really great reminder to everyone who’s listening. Like writing a book does not happen in a year. It just doesn’t you, you said this was like a 10 year process, the first four years of negotiating against yourself. But then like, y’all like take note, like this does not happen in a year. And if it doesn’t or two years, that doesn’t mean it’s not going to, but this was a very multi-year process. Right? It was
MT (00:24:40):
Mm-Hmm
AJV (00:24:42):
So you’re kinda saying like, once you knew, like there is a message that I have, that’s kind of like unique and different. I think this is, I think this is equally as important because I think so many people struggle with, well, everything has already been said, I have nothing else to add. So what advice would you give to someone who’s talking them at themselves out of their own dream?
MT (00:25:04):
It’s like, no, honestly, I think especially for entrepreneurs, it’s no different than that product that you know, that there’s nothing else in the market for it, or, you know, whatever niche that you create or, you know, writing a book. I think that so much of it has to be your own belief in it, because again, there are no guarantees right there there’s zero guarantees. So at the end of the day, can you do something that you’re a proud of, but B that could have been, and would’ve been, and should have been like those types of regrets that come from not having taken that risk, not, not living up to the promise of what you had imagined for yourself and instead sort of backing off because you didn’t believe in the fact that you could actually pull it off. I think those missed opportunities to me are far scarier.
MT (00:25:58):
Like they, that, that notion of the, what if regret is so much more difficult to live with because you will spend the rest of your life thinking about it, as opposed to doing it and maybe failing and you learn, and then you move on, but at least you can never look back and say, what if I had and I think so much as we can control when we get to that intersection so much as we can control taking that turn and moving towards something and saying, what’s the worst that can happen. Right. I, I, I think that’s really important. And once you believe then it’ll work or it won’t, but you won’t ever have to spend all those time, you know, moments thinking, you know, I, I let it flip by.
AJV (00:26:43):
Mm that’s so good. I love that. I love too. It’s like the, the fear of not going for it is like greater than the fear of going for it. I think so good. And I wanna, I wanna get to the book in just a second, because I, I really wanna learn like your insights and perspective around negotiation, cuz I know they’re really unique and I think a lot of people don’t consider themselves good salespeople or good negotiators. We’re gonna change their mind on that today. But from a place of being on the other side, you know, we celebrated 10 years of our first book coming out. This year’s unbelievable. It’s been out for 10 years, but our publishing story was very different than yours. We basically prospected agents for like two years. We were borderline stalking these people until they finally were like, oh my gosh, we’ll just, we’ll read the proposal.
AJV (00:27:32):
So you go away. Luckily it all turned out in our favor, but from, you know, one publishing story to another, because they’re all very different. I would love for you to kind of share, like what has your journey been? And like a real life perspective for the listener out there. Who’s going, I do feel that calling on my heart, I do have that message that I know it’s, it’s unique and different and my audience needs to hear it. And I don’t know how to go about doing this. Like what do you mean you just called a publisher or what, what did you do? Right. So kinda give us like your, your perspective. I mean, this is, this is somewhat fresh, right? Mm-Hmm
MT (00:28:25):
I got an agent before I even knew I was gonna write a book, right. We, I had this for a good fortune of meeting this person and as friends and, and really sort of relied on him all along the way, especially in those four years. And he understood where I was coming from because he, he respected the fact that I didn’t just wanna write another book then, and didn’t have sort of something that was different and fresh and knew cause he would have to stand by it. And so I think that was crucial. One in getting me to focus in a way that could bring this book sort of to market successfully and would be something that people would wanna buy from testing who my audience would be to all of that, right. Something that that’s what agents, they all agents, they, they are great at something, right.
MT (00:29:16):
That it could be lawyers. They could be whatever it is that work on your behalf. In this case, he was somebody that knew the publishing world and had a great eye for these things. So I relied on him to, to sort of take me through that early those early stages. And then it was, I think his relationship with the publishing world that got me, honestly, the type of an advance that was huge. I, I mean there was a, a sort of, they did an auction basically over my book, right? Like who would’ve ever imagined that there was like more than one person who wanted to get behind this book and it was a proposal at that point. And so it was, they believed. And I think that the, the reason why that worked is because relationships have existed, right. There was a tremendous amount of respect between all these publishing houses and my agent.
MT (00:30:12):
He led me to a place that I could proudly stand behind something and sell it. Mm-Hmm
AJV (00:30:54):
Yeah. I think that’s really important. And you know, it’s like, it’s same. It’s like we knew that we had to get an agent. If we wanted to do the traditional publishing route. We knew that. And that’s why we spent two years
AJV (00:31:40):
And that’s not how you do it. Mm-Hmm
MT (00:32:22):
Completely? I mean, it’s, it’s ludicrous to think that, that, you know, your book, it looks like the other way around, you know, you’re putting the car before the horse. I think, you know, looking at your example and hearing what you all did, you had your content as well, right? It actually, the story is all that different, right. Because you knew you wanted the book, whereas me, I, to talk myself into that, but once you have those parts connect, then it’s you go? And the reason why it’s not painstaking is because we had all the content. Yeah. Right. So the book becomes the packaging of that or the making it almost accessible. Mm-Hmm
MT (00:33:32):
Right. It’s the accessibility of that, that I think the book becomes as opposed to, to your point, the other way around.
AJV (00:33:38):
I totally agree. It’s like one of the things that we, you know, we, we get a profile at the time, like, well, when are you guys gonna write your book on personal branding? And you know, our message for the last four years has been, it’s like our, our philosophy is the book is the final product, not the first product, right? It’s like, we’ve been fine tuning our methodologies and our processes and tweaking it. And it’s like, when the book comes, you’ll know that everything is just where we think it should be. It’s the final product, not the first product. Right. I think there a trend right now is that people create a book to then sell their services. And we’re kind of like, now you need to go sell the services.
MT (00:34:19):
AJV (00:34:20):
Go speak on this, train on this, consult on this. You need to like be doing it, living it, then go write the book.
MT (00:34:28):
Absolutely.
AJV (00:34:28):
Which is what you’ve done. And to me, that, to me, that is what makes me wanna read a book like this is because it’s not your first rodeo. This is like your 1000th rodeo. So let’s talk about, bring yourself I wanna talk about this. It’s how to harness the power of negotiation to negotiate fearlessly. So what is negotiation? Because I think that’s like one of those terms that people use that can kind of be frightening. So for all of our listeners who are like, oh man, I, I can’t negotiate. I’m not a negotiator. Right? What is your definition of negotiation?
MT (00:35:05):
So it’s something we do all the time. Like literally from the moment you get up in the morning to the moment you go to sleep at night, you know, that’s your parent. But even, you know, regardless of that, every time you make a decision, every with yourself, even, you know, I always say pros and conflicts are, you know, a masterful negotiations, right? Because you’re thinking all the reasons why not and all the reasons why and so debate, that’s going to inner debate that’s going on. But you know, everything from family conversations, kids, business partners, vendors, I mean, you name it. It’s all in negotiation. So literally people hear the word and they’re so anxious and they think they’re bad at it. And I’m like, how could you possibly be bad at it? You, you do this all day long every day. And it’s literally those, those transferable skills that we use that I teach in class that is no different than everything else that you use every day that makes negotiations what it is.
MT (00:36:04):
Right. So it’s not meant to be scary. It’s not conflict ridden necessarily those such a small slice of that pie. Yes. There are difficult conversations. Yes. There are bad deals, that’s life. But the majority, again, if you think about it in the context of, if this is like the soundtrack of our lives, how could it all be conflict? It’s not, the majority are problem solving and, and collaboration and they build relationships, not break them up. And, and so it’s life. It, it literally is every part of our life. And so important as a result.
AJV (00:36:43):
So what would you say makes someone a good negotiator?
MT (00:36:52):
So I should probably sort of public service announcement. This is, this is I take a very different perspective than a lot of perspectives that we see sort of in TV or things that we’ve heard all our lives about. That great negotiator is sort of in your face, combative, you know, goal driven to the point that they’re not even considering anybody else. And you know, that, that real sort of almost like masculine inequalities and I don’t mean masculine male, female. I just mean that sort of the bra that mm-hmm,
AJV (00:38:37):
Clearly we’re gonna need to cut this. It’s like roughly at minute 42 the question I will restart with is what makes a good negotiator. And then we’ll, re-pick it up. So I’ll wait here patiently until she comes back
Speaker 3 (00:40:08):
Okay. So that was really scary. That was literally never happened. It was like an outage, like, oh,
AJV (00:40:15):
That’s weird.
Speaker 3 (00:40:15):
Everything flickered and it just went out. So I’m sorry about that.
AJV (00:40:19):
No, that’s okay. I actually, I captured the minute wrote down the question, so we’re just gonna start over with what makes a good negotiator. Okay. And I already noted the minute we’ll cut it out. It’s not a big deal. I captured all of it really quick.
Speaker 3 (00:40:31):
Are you okay with me actually getting rid of the
AJV (00:40:34):
Yes, totally. Okay. Okay. All so made all the verbal notes for the editor.
Speaker 3 (00:40:41):
Do you want me to start from the beginning?
AJV (00:40:43):
Yeah. So I’m just gonna re-ask question and then that’ll be a good kind of like segue. So okay. So here’s, here’s the next question then? What makes a good negotiator
Speaker 3 (00:40:54):
What makes a good negotiator? So I think that we’ve seen a lot of movies and sort of public profiles that show sort of these really brash negotiators in your face, sort of combated, very aggressive mm-hmm
Speaker 3 (00:41:53):
I think the great negotiator is the person who’s their, their authentic self and understands that this is a skill that is learned, right? We’re not born great negotiators and the more you do it, the better you become. But I think a really big part of that is the level of authenticity and believing that that person that’s coming to the table, that, you know, how you show up that gives you the confidence to be a great negotiator. And then all the other things I could tell you like the characteristics, I believe that the best negotiators are incredibly curious that they use negotiations, not an O as an opportunity to be so self-assured that they think they have nothing else to learn, but they come to the table curious with sort of that, that blend of confidence and humility that says I’m confident with who I am and what I bring here, but I’m humble enough to know that there’s a lot to learn always.
Speaker 3 (00:42:47):
And so the open mind, the open heart empathy, you know, where, again, it’s that level of curiosity about the person you’re negotiating with to understand their journey, how they’ve gotten here so that you can appeal to their sense of values and order. And, and, you know, I think those are the things that we don’t often see celebrated because again, that character that we see in our heads about the movies that we watch, the great negotiators are never seen as like the real kind, respectful, you know, empathetic person it’s so wrong. Because I think there’s a place for everybody, but in my mind, in my heart, I just believe that the, the great negotiators are those that make room for other people. And, and, and trust that, that conversation and that, that, that approach where it considers both sides is really the best one.
AJV (00:43:38):
Mm. I think that’s really good. I actually have a really difficult conversation coming up. Later this week, that’s gonna require some financial negotiation and that’s a really great reminder for me right now is like, I need to come to this quote, unquote, negotiation table, really seeking to understand, like, where are you coming from? Why do you feel this way? Like really seek to understand the other person in order for me to even have a fighting chance at finding a happy medium win-win situation.
Speaker 3 (00:44:12):
Yeah. Because I mean, first of all, knowing all that you’re bringing to a table, right. That’s sort of the most important part, right? The, the reason why my book is called bringing yourself is because I believe the hardest part of all this is to really understand their own value. Right? And that, that conversation you have to have with yourself at first, right? Who you are, what you stand for, what your values are, what your conviction is, the things that are sort of the non-negotiables, which have literally nothing to do with money, by the way, it’s what you stand for. Right? And, and once that’s sort of understood, and you could speak, you can be your own sort of best advocate. Then I feel like everything else sort of falls into place, right. Because everything else becomes some kind of tactic or strategy. But the hardest part is that breaking through those really negative things that we say you just said fighting chance which I would never see somebody like you who’s accomplished all that. You’ve accomplished. Even think that that’s how they should think about this. Of course you have a fighting chance of, I mean, are you crazy
AJV (00:45:18):
Reminder talk matters,
Speaker 3 (00:45:21):
Right? But it’s like, no. I mean, the minute you think that, that you have to sort of even fight to have the chance, like I would, I would abolish all of that. I would, I would put that away because you know, the truth is it will not take you that long to understand why you’re supposed to be there in the first place and ask for what you’re worth. Right. That, that should not take very long. But the other part of that is that, you know, negotiations is all about influencing somebody. Mm-Hmm
AJV (00:46:20):
Oh yes. Let’s have another coaching session. This is podcast coaching session for AJ. But I think that’s really important cuz it’s like you do like even subconsciously start to think about negotiation in a way of like win or lose. That’s not a real thing. Like we, no one has to lose, no one has to lose in this. And I do think there’s so much negative connotation around the idea of negotiation. So I’m curious, like where do you think that comes from? Like even in my subconscious where I’m an extraordinarily unusually confident human being, but for me to even like subconsciously think fighting chance, like when it comes to negotiation, like where do you think that comes from?
Speaker 3 (00:47:02):
I think society in a lot of ways, right? Again, like what’s what we see in movies, what we see on TV, what we read. And I think that maybe just maybe the more sort of other examples that we see of really sort of these successful negotiators women who, you know, are, are tremendous at this, by the way, talk about sort of the bad stories, but you know, the more examples we have of people who don’t espouse those other sort of characteristic and, and when we can actually change the paradigm of how we, we see negotiations, we reimagine it. And it becomes something that we all understand that we’re so capable and confident of doing, but, but, you know, use it in a way that speaks to you, right? Make it your voice that matters, not what you are told that you should say or how you should pretend to be.
Speaker 3 (00:48:00):
I mean, there’s more pretense in what people are taught, right? There’s more, you know, negotiations is not like baking a cake. I, who am I to tell you, if you say this word and that word, and if you do this and you act like this, you’re gonna succeed, first of all, that’s not true.
AJV (00:48:56):
Mm. I love that, you know, and you said something earlier that, you know, really resonated with me, but then also with so many of, you know, the people that I, I get to interact with on a daily basis, both personally and professionally and it’s setting up non-negotiables right. And I think that’s a huge, a huge part of negotiation, but also of confidence of knowing it’s like, there’s wiggle room, but then I have my non-negotiables and there’s no wiggle room there. And so I’ve heard you say, and maybe it was our conversation, maybe it was in the book. I don’t remember at this point, but it’s like, and that negotiation is not an issue of skill. It’s more to do with self-worth and confidence. Can we talk about that for just a minute? Yeah. Like to hear that negotiation is not a skill thing, it’s a belief thing. I mean, that’s really different because it’s like every other negotiation training book seminar that I’ve ever been to are very, very sales oriented, very skills oriented it’s words to use body language, tone of voice, you know, you know, all the things, right. So to hear, it’s not a skill issue, it’s a self worth, it’s a confidence issue. Really puts it in a different place of perspective. And so just, I wanna hear your thoughts on that.
Speaker 3 (00:50:21):
I’ll probably be best at describing that if I give you an example, but before I go there, I, I, I think that, again, the hardest part is that get knowing yourself, knowing your self worth. And this is after thousands of people that I’ve taught, it could be CEOs of major corporations. It could be professional athlete, people who you would never imagine have, you know, issues with sort of self-worth or, you know, imposter syndrome as we imagine it, but they do right. And so time and time again, it goes back to this issue of knowing your value, right. And not just knowing it, but being able to courageously and fearlessly advocate for it. And so I feel like if, if you can do that, then I don’t teach rocket science. Anybody who tells you that they’re, you know, you have to learn all of these skills before you can negotiate successfully is, is just not being honest because the, the fact is that those are, and those are first of all, really easy, right?
Speaker 3 (00:51:18):
Learning how to prepare for negotiations is not rocket science, right? Learning, you know, what kinds of things you should consider in preparation, not rocket science. You know, what’s rocket science. What’s really hard is knowing your self worth because only then, right? Can you actually set goals that are aspirational and worthy of you? And then once you set those goals, then you can actually go to the table and, and ask for those things. And then once you can ask for those things, then you actually get it right. But if that first piece is not done, then all the skills in the world are not gonna get you through that journey without you folding. Right. So, so grounding yourself and knowing yourself is really important. You talked about non-negotiables non-negotiables are generally things that are like our values. Yeah. Right? Our convictions, things that if you give them away, you are no longer whole, no matter how success we’ll be, outcome of the negotiations is right.
Speaker 3 (00:52:15):
It’s the stuff we can’t live with ourselves. If we put those, you know, whether it’s lying, whether whatever it is. Right? So even those things have nothing necessarily to do with financials or the sort of the, the tangibles, it’s the intangibles that matter right now, the example that, that I was gonna give you is this, that, that the best negotiators, right. If, if you’ve gone through 65 trainings, read every book, listen to the podcast, you know, I’m so ready. Right. I’ve watched every movie I’m, I’ve got it. Right. But what you really struggle with is sort of fear and anxiety, or even like, maybe even lack of self-belief. Right. And you know, there’s all these studies that are done. Say like we have somewhere between 12,000 to 60 thoughts, 60,000 thoughts, a day of those thoughts, 80% of them are negative, right? So the minute you go down that rabbit hole and you fall back into that one behavior, you have not chosen to address, which is the fear, the anxiety, the stories that you tell yourself, right? And this, this, you just go in a tail spin. You will not remember what it said on page 37 of that book. Right.
AJV (00:53:31):
That’s not true. That’s so true.
Speaker 3 (00:53:35):
Mirroring. You can hardly see the person sitting across from you straight because right. Because cognitively your fear is blocked you from doing that. So you’re in your head, you can’t be present. You’re fearful that now affects every little, everything big or small that you’ve learned. And you’ve been told to do. And now you’re sitting there in a, in a, you know, pile of fear. Mm-Hmm
AJV (00:54:51):
Yeah. Oh, I love this. And you know, this is, it just brings up, you know, a fear that I often hear from people who are working on their personal brand or who want to become more well known for something, but what their real fear is, is, do I really have anything to add to the conversation? And I love this so much because being in a world of sales for a very long time, there’s a lot of talk on negotiation. I have literally probably read a dozen books, been to twice as many conferences or seminars heard speakers on these attended webinars. And I have never heard negotiation discussed the way that you’re discussing it today. And if we would just lean more into the uniqueness that is just naturally within us as like, I wish this was the conversation that was had with me when I was starting out at 22 and 23, like how much further ahead I would be if it was not about reading body language and, you know, say these words and do it at this time.
AJV (00:55:55):
And, but it was more about like, do you know what you’re going in for? Right. Do you know what you really want? Do you know what the outcome is that you wish, you know, to have? It’s like, do you know your non-negotiables like, do you know your own self worth? Like, do you even know what you’re negotiating for? Right. It’s like, how often are we just, you know, and in my perspective, it’s to my comment I made earlier, it’s like, sometimes it’s just a, it’s, it’s a battle. It’s like, well, I’m just going into win. Right. Right. And it’s like, well, right. Is what’s that old saying, you can win the battle and still lose the war. Right. Right. It’s like, do we even know what we’re, we’re going into conversate with? I think this is such a great reminder to anyone who is listening. It’s like, regardless of what you feel called to talk about, I assure you the way you’re gonna talk about it is different than how anyone else is going to talk about it because they’re not you, I, this is a great example of that in this conversation.
Speaker 3 (00:56:50):
And I should have probably added before, as I’m thinking, as you’re saying, this is like another really great attribute of, of, of negotiators, great negotiators is that they’re storytellers really, really great storytellers. And that’s how we move people. Right. That’s how we influence people. That’s how we persuade people. And it’s the story you tell yourself. Right. But it’s also the stories that you can share with other people, the, the opening up the vulnerability, the, the letting people in. But we’ve been told that you should not, and I’m not saying, you know, be vulnerable in every negotiations, but just even vulnerable to yourself. Right. And, and that sort of deep understanding of yourself, but learning to tell your story, you know, it’s the brand builder’s way, right? Yeah. But it’s, but it’s knowing, knowing how to do that fearlessly. And knowing that that’s how you change people’s minds and hearts, I guess you know, the, the great quote of, of this notion of, you know, people may forget what you said, and they may forget what you did, but they’ll never forget how you made them feel. How do we make people feel some way mm-hmm,
AJV (00:58:11):
Oh, I love this. I could continue this conversation for another hour and still have more questions. But I wanna make sure people know where to go to check out this book, bring yourself so more where should go to learn more about you and learn more about becoming that great negotiator that is already within
Speaker 3 (00:58:34):
Well, they can, so everything’s on my website. So if they go to more report.com the information about the book I’ve got a newsletter they can sign up for everything’s there. I’m on social media, the book itself, you can find it, any outlet that sells books. So Amazon and hang on random house. It’s actually the publisher Barnes and Nobles all it. So not too hard to find it is out there.
AJV (00:58:58):
All right. Well, I will make sure to put your website link in the show notes, everyone spells it correctly. You can go to Amazon type in, bring yourself, I’ll put all your social handles in the show notes. And before we sign off, I have one last question for you that has nothing to do with negotiation or publishing or teaching or anything. But since it came up today this is help me and help our audience get to know you. What would you say are three non-negotiables in your life that you’re like, these are three non-negotiables for me.
Speaker 3 (00:59:32):
I don’t lie.
AJV (00:59:34):
It’s a good one.
Speaker 3 (00:59:36):
I’m horrible at it. That’s probably one of the reasons why, like, I can’t keep up with a, with a, with a lie to save my life. And so I just feel like the reputational risk is so worth so huge and so damaging. Yeah. That, you know, I, I just, I’ve, I’ve learned from mistakes and not even like business mistakes, but like mom and asking me 30 questions and I’m like, I lost you at eight. Right. So can’t do that.
AJV (01:00:05):
That’s a good, I love that. Okay. That’s good.
Speaker 3 (01:00:09):
Not having the really hard conversations. I, I, I wanna just, if it’s there, let’s just talk, talk about it, right. Because I’ve, I’ve, that’s another thing I’ve learned. I carried the burden of those difficult conversations for a really long time. I, I, I, I lived with Ms. I was diagnosed with Ms in 2010, the burden of stress and all the rest of it had, hasn’t gotten the best of me, but it definitely has taught me that, that the minute you can release that stress and, and the stress of sort of holding back things that are important to you or things that, that need to get cleared away, then, you know, it’s, it’s just so much healthier for your mind, your body, your spirit, all of it.
AJV (01:00:53):
Hmm. Love that.
Speaker 3 (01:00:55):
My non-negotiable, I don’t, I don’t want to be in any kind of relationship business or otherwise with people who have little thought for others that have no empathy, that, that just don’t care. Here I go getting emotional again. I don’t even understand it, but, but I feel like I see so much of that. We see so much of that in our world, and it honestly breaks my heart. And I know that I can’t control all that happens, but I can certainly control those people who I wanna associate with. Amen. And I feel like that we owe the world. We owe everybody better than that. More than that. So that’s really important for me is for people to, to just care about others.
AJV (01:01:48):
Yeah. I love that. Those are so good. I think this is a good practice for all of us, right? Leaving this show. It’s like, if nothing else, it’s like spend some time thinking about what are the non-negotiables in your life. And I love those more. I think those are so good. I have so enjoyed having on the show, getting to know you more, getting to learn from you and also getting a mini coaching session. So lots of, for me y’all stay tuned. I’m gonna record our recap episode. That’ll be live next. Make sure you check out the book, bring yourself and make sure you come back for another episode on the influential personal brand. We’ll see you next time. Thank you.
Ep 315: 5 Steps to Getting Paid Speaking Gigs with Grant Baldwin | Recap Episode
RV (00:03):
How to get paid as a speaker, always a fun topic, something I love talking about you may not know this, but you know, for me, this whole entree into being an entrepreneur and being a bestselling author and personal branding all of those things are byproducts that resulted from my initial desire and my initial vision and my initial dream, which was to be a speaker. That was something that I knew early on in, in high school. I saw speakers and, and I went to these leadership conferences and I immediately recognized that that is something I wanted to do with my life. And so this has been something, I, this is a profession that I have pursued my entire career, like before I was old enough to drive.
RV (00:59):
I love talking shop. I love talking business. And of course, what we do at brand builders group has evolved to be so much more than speaking. You know, we’re doing podcasting and, and positioning and branding and messaging and funnels and, and book launches and building your sales team and high dollar offers and online marketing and traffic and, and you know, all search engine. Optimiz like all the things that surround this and entrepreneurship in general and managing cash flows and building your sales team. But originally for me, my dream was to be a speaker. And that’s what sent me on this journey. And so getting to talk to grant Baldwin on this last interview, which was, which was a great one, it was a great one I’ve known grant for years and years at this point. And I remember when he first started out in the speaking business and, and someone had introduced us just because, you know, we were fairly young guys and, and back 20 years ago, there weren’t a lot of young people in the speaking business.
RV (01:56):
It was always very much like a pres you know, like a second or third career for a lot of people. And nowadays with, you know, the explosion of personal branding, it’s, it’s become something that people get into much earlier. So what I wanna do today is as always do a recap, but today’s gonna be a little bit different because I’m, I’m probably not gonna recap too much of what grant shared specifically in that interview. I’m actually going to share with you some of the things that we teach at brand builders group related to speaking, which are, are very much related to the things that came up in the conversation with grant. But people often ask, you know, can I, you know, can they coach with me? I get that question a lot. Hey, Rory, can I, you know, what would you be my coach? Would you be my mentor? And, and one of the things that we created is, is a program that’s very affordable, where I actually can coach people. And twice a month, I do these group coaching calls and people come on, they ask questions, they get access to all 14 of our courses as part of this program for the, for a price that’s less than the cost of what one course would cost.
RV (02:59):
But it’s a monthly membership program and they I, I teach, you know, twice a month and we’ve been in a mini series, a at this happens to be at the same time called how to get the gig, how to get the gig. And it’s like an eight part mini series. And so we’ve been talking a lot about this internally. Just, just recently with our, with our, with our members, with our clients, with our, you know, we call ’em Messenger’s mission driven messenger. So I’m, I’m gonna grab a couple of the highlights from that and share them with you here. And the first at one is, is something that one of my mentors, David Avrin taught me one time, which is so important. Like, if, if you wanna be a professional speaker, you have to understand this idea. And if you don’t understand this idea, like until you understand this idea, like you’re gonna struggle in this business.
RV (03:58):
I guarantee it, like, if this first idea that I’m gonna share with you here, if this doesn’t lock in place, you are gonna be in trouble. You’re gonna struggle if you are trying to pursue a career in speaking. And, and here’s what it is. And this is, you know, basically verbatim, as, as Dave told me, he said, Rory speaking is not the business. Getting the gig is this business speaking is not this business, getting the gig is this business. So what he means by that, right, is like people see the stage, right? And they see a speaker and they go, wow, that would be amazing. How do I get to be that person? Like, I wanna be up there inspiring people and encouraging people and, and, and adding value to their, to the, the lives of so many. And yet that’s the tip of the iceberg, right?
RV (04:49):
That’s the part you see, that’s not the business, right? Like that’s not the daily life. Like that is not the job. The job is getting the gig invitation, earning the right to be up there, putting in the research, the writing, but not, not just the content development, but actually the marketing and the sales and the messaging and the clarity of, of your own expertise of all of those things, working together to get invited onto that stage or to, you know, to sell your way onto that stage. And nobody understands that they all think that just like, oh, well, I’m, I’m a good talker. I’m a good, I’m, I’m good in front of people. I, I should be a speaker, but that’s not the business. Getting the opportunity to speak is the business. That’s where all the, the, the, the, the hardship is that’s all the, the beneath the surface, the behind the scenes.
RV (05:47):
And so everything we do at brand builders group is about that. And that’s the part that like, nobody teaches. Nobody talks about you don’t hear that often. Right? You just see the speaker and you, you never see what it takes to get there. And so when you try to figure it out, people fail, right. There’s a lot of bodies on the road to the dream of being up a professional speaker, cuz it’s not easy. Now, after 20 plus years of doing this, we figured out it is simple and we have structured it and documented it, diagramed it. And checklisted it. And templated it and F workeded it. And that’s what we teach at brand builders group is the step by step, not just of how to be a professional speaker, although that’s a big part of what we do. It’s, it’s a, I can’t even say it’s a big part.
RV (06:30):
It’s, it’s a, it’s it is a big part. It’s a big part of what we do. It’s but it’s just a part of what we do in terms of helping mission driven, messengers, reach more people get more leads, make more money, you know, through scalable revenue streams impact more people ultimately in the world. So you gotta understand this, that speaking is not the business, getting the gig is the business. And as from my mentor, Dave ARN, and the sooner you grasp that, the sooner you grab hold of that, the sooner you accept that, the sooner that you go, okay, I acknowledge that the sooner you can get busy doing the work, getting the coaching and doing the activities it takes to actually get the opportunity to be on that stage because the stage is a gift. The stage is a privilege, but the, the stage is an earned right to be there.
RV (07:25):
And it’s, it’s it, it’s not easy. It’s not easy, but it is very doable. And you know, many ways it’s guaranteed like the, we know the stuff that we do works because we’ve done it for ourselves for so long. And so many people at all different fee ranges, but that’s the, that’s the switch you gotta flip in your head. If you really wanna be a speaker it’s not what you do on stage. That is the business. It’s what you do off stage to get the gig. So that’s the, that’s the first thing. The second thing I wanna run through here is something that we just recently put together at for our, for our members, as part of this, this internal, you know, mini series that we’re, we’re, we’re coaching them on, which is seven different ways you get paid for a speaking engagement.
RV (08:14):
There’s seven different ways you get paid for a speaking engagement. And, and so even though the interview, you know, this interview this week, and what I’m talking about here has sort of been in the context of paid professional speaking. The vast majority of our 600 clients are not making full-time careers as paid speakers. They’re using speaking to sell their other things, which would be information, products, books, coaching courses or coaching courses, membership sites, assessments, certifications and there’s three different. There’s three different audiences that we sort of serve at brand builders group. The first are experts. Experts are selling their knowledge. And so we help them productize that as books, speeches, coaching programs consulting curriculums online courses, et cetera, that’s one group of our audience, but huge second group of our audience are just entrepreneurs. And they’re not actually trying to productize their knowledge.
RV (09:15):
They already have a service based business, or even a product based business where they’re we work with a lot of professional services though. They’re accountants, they’re doctors, they’re lawyers, they’re they’re financial advisors, they’re they’re chiropractors. They are all different, all different things. And in that case, they’re just using their personal brand to drive leads to their business. And that’s a great way to monetize a personal brand. It’s actually faster than an expert because you already have the business. By the way, we put direct sales people in that category of entrepreneurs as well. They already have the product and they already have a business opportunity that they can monetize. They’re just using their personal brand to drive awareness for the thing that already exists. Those are entrepreneurs. And then we have a third group of people that are clients of ours that are executives executives, executives, aren’t making money selling anything.
RV (10:09):
But what they’re doing is they’re raising their profile in their industry and in their company so that they get promotions, they get invited to be on boards. They get to speak on panels. They, they get to, to com to, to influence and impact their industry, their trade, their profession. And they, they gain visibility in notoriety, which typically shows up in, in more salary or stock options or, or, or just just recognition, right? So on, we have experts, entrepreneurs, and executives that we all, you know, generally classify as mission driven messengers. But if you look at this, the second two groups of entrepreneurs and executives, they may never get paid for a speech. That’s not the purpose of, of why they speak, even though we’re gonna teach them how to do this. And, and even experts, many experts won’t get paid for their speech itself.
RV (10:58):
They’re gonna get paid in one of these other seven ways. So let’s run through these the seven ways to get paid for a speaking engagement. Number one is a speaking fee, obviously, but believe it or not, that is the least most common way to get paid for a speaking engagement. That’s the least most common way. So if you can get that great, cuz here’s the thing, you know, the, the best of the, the best thing is when you get the best of both worlds, where you get a fee and you get all of these other six things which we’re gonna, which we’re gonna talk about. So, but that’s the least most common even inside of our own community, which are people who are saying, yeah, I wanna get my message out to the world. I mean, we have some of the highest paid speakers in the world that are clients of ours.
RV (11:44):
Like literally the highest paid speakers in the world. We have clients of ours, multiple clients who make over $70,000 a speech. We, we’ve got, you know, several clients that make, oh, you know, more than $30,000 a speech. And then a whole bunch that are in the 10 to 15. And then, and then there’s a whole bunch that are under 10 or free, which would be the largest percentage of our clients. Why? Because of the other six ways you get paid to speak. So the second one is leads. You get paid in leads. This is where I was saying that second classification of people that we work with, which are entrepreneurs. They’re not trying to get paid to speak. They’re also not trying to sell a book or a course at the end of their speech. The reason they’re speaking, whether it is on a webinar or a podcast or through on YouTube or live on social.
RV (12:37):
The reason they’re speaking is to drive leads to their business. They’re trying to drive leads to the, to the, whatever the widget is or the service that they already have to sell. They’re not creating a new one. And that is every one of our customers. In those first two categories, experts and entrepreneurs are driving leads to whatever it is their business is. Even if it’s recruiting it might be recruiting employees or recruiting team members. Certainly if you’re in direct sales, that’s a huge thing is we teach you how to use your personal brand to drive leads. That’s the second way you get paid to speak. The third way you get paid to speak is you, you get paid from customers that you generate on site at the back of the room. So this is selling a book or selling a course on site.
RV (13:28):
So you, at the end of your speech, this is how Rory Vaden earned his first speaking fees. I would speak for free. And then I would sell a $20 self-published book at the back of the room. And I quickly figured out that it was a lot more work to create books that I could only sell for $20 than it was to sell a ticket to a half day training with me, which I could sell for a hundred or $200. And so I quickly moved to selling tickets to other trainings. And then we started our first company and that’s how we did it. We used to speak for free and sell tickets. And then we figured out we could speak for free and we didn’t even have to sell a one day ticket. We could just sell right into a coaching program. And that was the business model that we used to create an eight figure business more than 10 million a year in revenue from this one business model, speaking for free to very small groups of like three to 10 people, and then selling our coaching program at the, at the end, anybody can do this.
RV (14:28):
Speaking is incredible. It, it, it is absolutely phenomenal. And, and that’s the third way you get paid fourth way you get paid video footage, video footage. There were times early in my career where I would take gigs for free or highly discounted just because I needed the video footage. The reason reason is, is because the number, the number one reason you get hired to speak is because somebody has seen you speak. That’s always the number one way you get business. But the, the number two way is that you have great video footage where people can watch you on stage. Well, it’s a chicken in the egg thing because it’s like, well, how do I get invited on stages when I don’t have a video of me on stage to get on the stage? And the answer is you go speak for free to get the video footage, and then you take the video footage and you use it to then get more paid engagements.
RV (15:25):
And inside a brand builders group, we have an amazing partner that we use who also does events where you can, that are, they are on a, you know, a half, a million dollar stage with full L E D lighting, six cameras, a live audience of few hundred people. And you can actually pay to get 20 minutes on that stage. And then, and then you have an, a, a video from it, by the way, if you want even, even if you’re not a member of ours, you can check out that partner. It’s if you go to brand builders, group.com/brand amplifiers, go to brand builders, group.com/brand amplifiers you can check out our partner that does that, but you, if you don’t have a lot of money, you know, you, that cost of money is very reasonable. It’s a, it’s an incredible program.
RV (16:15):
And in fact, we’re gonna, we’re gonna bring the, our partner onto the podcast probably, and talk more about that, but like the it still costs some money, right? But so the other thing is go speak for free or speak for discount, just to get the video footage of being on really nice stages, fifth way you get paid to speak. Testimonials, testimonials are huge, and I’ll never forget when Joe Calloway was a friend of mine. And, and I would say a mentor. He was a hall of fame speaker and, and Joe, we were talking about speakers bureaus one time. And, and I asked him, Joe, when’s the right time to contact a speakers bureau. Like when am I ready to work with a speakers bureau? And you know, there, there, there were two things that you hear a lot in this world about speakers, bureaus.
RV (17:01):
And we, we love speakers bureaus. We haven’t traditionally worked with a ton of them because the idea with speakers bureaus is you don’t need them until they don’t you don’t need them until they don’t need you or wait, how’s that go? Yeah. You only need them when they don’t need you, or they don’t want you. And then by the time they want you, you don’t need them anymore. Meaning that when you first start out and you need someone to promote you, they’re not gonna promote you, cuz no one knows who you are. And it’s a lot of work to sell you for a very low fee. And so they don’t make any money. And so it’s, it’s like, why would they do all the extra work and not make very much money? So they’re not really there in the beginning. And then, so you build up your own career.
RV (17:41):
And so then you get to where you’re making a lot of money. You got a lot of people asking for you and that’s when bureaus want you, cuz now their clients are asking for you, but you kind of don’t need ’em cuz their clients are asking for you cuz you’ve done a good job of building yourself up. So there’s great. There’s great relationships you have with bureaus and they can be a great thing. Really great thing. And several of our friends, our clients use them and, and work with them and, and we do work with a couple bureaus. But anyways, I asked Joe Calloway when’s the right time to approach a speakers bureau. And he said, when you can send them a killer demo video and a stack of a hundred testimonial letters, that was his answer. When’s the right time to speak.
RV (18:23):
When is the right time to contact a speakers bureau when you can send them a killer demo video and a hundred testimonial letters. And I thought that was really, really good. And Joe worked with a lot of bureaus during his career was extremely successful. And so you need testimonials. Now whether it’s working with speakers bureaus or not, if a client’s gonna hire you to speak, they need testimonials. And our, our, our personal brand national research study showed this is the number one criteria of people who will hire you is they want testimonials from other customers. So consider that a form of compensation and we would write it into our contract. If someone didn’t have our fee, then we negotiated. We say, well look, we wanna, we want a testimonial letter now. Sometimes we get it anyways, which is great. But if we’re doing it as a discount, we’re gonna negotiate that into the contract specifically to say, we want video footage.
RV (19:17):
We want a chance to make an offer at the end of the you know, at the back of the room we want testimonials, which leads to number six, which is referrals and introductions. The other way you get paid to speak, number six is by referrals to other people. And so the, again, hopefully this happens always in our pressure free persuasion course, which is one of our phase three courses on, on sales one-on-one sales. We teach scripts for how to ask for referrals. Well, the better job you do as a speaker, the more likely you are to get referrals. If you, if you do it and you know how to do it. So that’s a great, that’s a form of payment, right? You’re getting another gig outta the gig that you got. And again, sometimes, sometimes we will put into a contract or, you know, not so much these days, but when we first started out, we would say, look, if we come do this for a discount, we want three legitimate introductions to other people, you know, who run meetings.
RV (20:13):
You don’t have to guarantee that they’re gonna hire us, but a legitimate handheld like white glove email introduction. Now, you know, when we’re chasing down speaking gigs, we do that anyways. That’s all part of pressure, free persuasion, but that’s a way you get paid. And then the seventh way which people don’t do that much anymore these days. But you should because this back in like the seventies and the eighties, the sixties, seventies, eighties of the heyday of speaking, like people used to do this all the time, which is barter. You can barter things. AJ once bartered a couch, we have bartered, we have bartered two couches and an entire custom closet from one company that was one of our past clients. And it’s, they were very expensive. I’m talking about like each piece is tens of thousands of dollars. We would, we would never buy no matter how much money we had, but they were beautiful and AJ loved them and, and she bartered speaking fees for them.
RV (21:11):
So you can barter things. Why, because it only costs them wholesale, but it’s worth retail value to you because you would have to pay for that. But you can also barter for travel, right? Give me, give me you know, let my spouse come with me or my kids come with me or I want extra hotel stays if it’s in a really cool place or I want you to upgrade me to a nicer suite. You know, a lot of these clients already have to fill a certain number of room nights anyways. So they might as well use that as an incentive to help get you. And there you go, seven ways to get paid for a speaking engagement. And then finally the third takeaway from today is the one I wanna leave you with, which is kind of a tie back to the first one that, you know, speaking is not the business, getting the gig is the business, but follow up is the key follow up is the key follow up is the discipline of this whole business.
RV (22:11):
AJ has always said, you know, one of the things I’ve learned from AJ is she always says, there’s no such thing as a no, it’s never a no, there are only, it’s not right now. There’s no such thing as a no, there’s only such a thing as a not right now. And what she means by that is sooner or later, everybody is going to buy, especially in the speaking business. Cuz if, if they’re have an event they’re putting on every year, they need speakers every single year. And so they might not book you this year or next year or the year after. But if you follow up and you’re nice and you build a relationship and your career is growing and you’re improving and you’re doing all the things we teach at brand builders group, sooner or later, they’re gonna go, you know what, let’s do it, let’s have you.
RV (22:57):
And so follow up is the game like follow up is the discipline. You gotta be willing to do the work of staying in touch with people. So there you go, three great takeaways, seven ways to get paid for a speaking engagement. These are just a, a couple tips, right? Whatever I’ve shared here I don’t know, 10, 15 minutes of, you know, more than seven hours of training that we have done because we’ve done seven seven or eight calls in our little internal training. So this is the kind of stuff that we teach inside a brand builder’s group. I wanted to give you a chance to get a little sample of that. But right here on the podcast, we’re so grateful that you’re here. Hope you’re enjoying the show, share this with somebody who’s trying to start a speaking career or somebody who is interested in
Speaker 3 (23:44):
Speaking or somebody who just wants to get out there and speak or could, or should speak to drive more leads to their business, even if they’re not paid. And if that person is you, please make sure that you request a call with our team at freebrandcall.com / podcast. And let’s talk other than that, we’ll catch you next time on the influential personal brand podcast.
Ep 314: 5 Steps to Getting Paid Speaking Gigs with Grant Baldwin
RV (00:00):
To so a few weeks ago, my friend grant Baldwin introduced me to his audience. I was on his podcast and it had been a while since we connected. And he sent me an email thread that went back years and years of when we first connected and he was sort of making his climb through the industry. And it’s been fun for me to just sort of watch him you know, come into the speaking world, you know, kind of crack through. He never had a huge following or wasn’t like, you know, TV famous or something like that. And he’s built just a wonderful career for himself as a paid speaker and also helping other people get speaking engagements. And so he made that his entire business. He’s the CEO of a company called speaker lab which just recently found out congratulations. They’re on the in 5,000 list for the second time. He’s been featured in Forbes and entrepreneur in, in magazines, Huffington post, and has just been, you know, around hanging in the same circles, the national speakers association, et cetera, and also right here around Nashville. So we’ve, we’ve come across each other from time to time. He’s somebody that I think we’ve got a lot we can learn from. And anyways, welcome to the show grant. Good to see you.
GB (01:11):
Right. Thanks for letting me hang out with you, man. I appreciate it.
RV (01:13):
Yeah, brother. So let’s talk about your expertise, like getting some paid speaking engagements where do we find them? How do we, how do we go about getting them? Right. So a lot of people listening are, you know, some of ’em are coach a lot. A lot of our eyes is like coaches and speakers. A lot of ’em are like professional service providers and things like that. You know, or just entrepreneurs in general. And for us, personal branding, as you know, is not social media or websites. We think of it as reputation. And this is like, how do you build your reputation? So speaking is a huge part of that. It’s been a huge part of our career when you make that transition to go, I wanna get paid speeches. What’s the first thing that needs to happen or where do you go look?
GB (02:00):
Yeah, good question. So what we basically teach inside the speaker lab is a five step framework. We call the speaker success roadmap. And so it makes the acronym speak. And so maybe what we could do is why don’t, I just kinda like walk through at a high level, what that acronym is and kind of sure here’s the roadmap that we follow. And then we can kind of jump in wherever, but the first part of the process S is select a problem to solve. And so this comes down to two key things that everyone listening, you gotta get really, really clear on. You have to be clear on who do you speak to? And number two, what problem do you solve for that audience? Now this, this seems overly simplistic. And it’s like, yeah, yeah, but just like fast forward, tell us how to actually book gigs.
GB (02:35):
But if you’re not clear on these things, then you’re shooting for everything and nothing at the same time. And so what we, what we tend to see, and you’ve seen this as well, Roy is that whenever it comes to who do you speak to? A lot of times we wanna spread the net as far and wide as possible. So who do I speak to? I don’t know. I, I speak to humans. I speak to people. My message is for everybody. Right? Right. And the reality is, is like that just doesn’t work. And same thing whenever it comes to, what do you speak about? And people are oftentimes like, well, what do you want me to, to speak about? I could speak about sales or marketing or leadership or motivation or family or faith or on and on the list goes. And so what we tell speakers all the time is you wanna be the steakhouse and not the buffet, the steakhouse and not the buffet.
GB (03:11):
And what we mean by that is Roy. If you and I were going to grab a bite to eat, we were looking for a good steak. Like we have a choice. We could go to a buffet where steak is one of a hundred different things that they offer and they’re all mediocre. Or we could go to a steakhouse where they do one thing, but they do that one thing really, really, really well. They don’t do Pasa. They don’t do seafood. They don’t do sushi. They do steak. And that is it. And again, it’s counterintuitive because as speakers, we think that we need to spread the net as far and wide as possible. The more things I can speak about the more audiences I can appeal to the more opportunities that I will have, but people are looking for specialists and not generalists. So you don’t wanna try to speak on anything and everything to everybody solve one specific problem for one specific audience. So again, if you get that right, if you get clarity there, everything else in the process becomes much simpler. So that’s the yes. Elective problem to solve the B is
RV (04:01):
I wanna talk about that for just a second. So when you say a problem to solve, what are some characteristics of a great problem to solve? So like, you know, marketing is an example, is that considered like in your world, in your language, is marketing a problem that you solve or is it have to be something more specific than that? Like what, what are the criteria that something must pass in order for you to go? Yeah, that’s a clear problem that you can make money, like you can take to the market and solve.
GB (04:32):
Yeah, absolutely. And to your point there, like there’s an overlap there between what you’re interested in, what you’re passionate about, what your knowledge belong, what your expertise is in and what is it that the industry, or actually cares about because just because you’re an expert on something doesn’t necessarily mean that there are opportunities to speak on that thing. And maybe there are opportunities to speak, but not to a particular industry that you are looking for. So there’s basically, I think about like kind of a VIN diagram of three different circles here. Okay. and so we’re looking for three different things. One is gonna be your industry. So who exactly are you speaking to meaning that there are certain kinda like predefined industries within the speaking space? And so there, there are seven primary industries and within this, there’s a whole bunch of different kind of subcategories, but real quick, those are corporations, associations, nonprofit, faith-based government, military education K through 12 and college.
GB (05:23):
Okay. So again, within that, there’s a whole bunch of different subcategories, but those are typically the big seven categories that the majority of speaking engagements fall into. So you have industry, the other side of it is going to be integrity, meaning like, what are you actually qualified to talk about? What is the some expertise or knowledge now that doesn’t necessarily mean that you need to be the world’s foremost expert on this thing, but you need to know at least something on the topic, be knowledgeable on it, know something slightly, be slightly ahead of maybe where your audience might be. And then the third piece kinda what you’re talking about here, Rory is interest. So industry integrity and interest. And so this is a two way street. One is something that, that you are interested on. You’re knowledgeable on, you have some expertise on, but it also has to be something that that industry or that decision maker is interested in.
GB (06:04):
So let me give you a quick example of this. So years ago, when I got started, when I first reached out to you in 2006 or seven or whatever it was, and I was kind of figuring things out, I was doing a lot of speaking in the education space. And one of the topics that at the time that I was really interested in was the subject of personal finance. This was something that my wife and I like, we were going through some of Dave Ramsey stuff and paying off debt and, and going like, wow, this has really made a big impact in our lives. So if I could teach teenagers about this, like that would make a huge, huge impact for them. And one of the things that we found was that I was doing a lot of speaking in schools and conferences.
GB (06:39):
And if I interviewed a hundred different high school principals, all 100 of them would say that yes, teaching students about personal finance was really, really important yet. Nobody was really hiring speakers to talk about personal finance in a school assembly setting. So was it important to them? Was it of interest to them? Yes, but it wasn’t necessarily something that they were hiring speakers to talk about. But what I found was that oftentimes they were hiring speakers to help their students in a school assembly setting, make a successful transition from high school and to college in the real world. So I started doing talks around that. And within that, I would talk about talk about personal finance. So it wasn’t like this bait and switch or anything, but saying, Hey, here, what’s the thing that you are looking for, the challenge that you have, that you identify for yourself within your school, within your students that you have, how do I, how do I come at that and attack that topic while at the same time, maybe talking about this other kind of tangential type of topic. So again, the point being is you interest, is that two way street, just because I’m interested in, it doesn’t necessarily mean that organizations or groups actually hire speakers to talk about that.
RV (07:41):
Yeah. I think that’s a, that’s a really great a really great point. Like we think of it as like we would call that positioning, right. So it’s just like, how do you position this in a way that it is what you do, but in a way that it was hireable by, by somebody else? I think that’s, I think that’s great. Okay. So then, so now you pick your topic, your pop problem, right? Okay. So then what’s the P
GB (08:07):
Yeah. The P is to prepare your talk, prepare your talk, basically get really, really clear on what’s the solution that you are gonna be providing to this audience. Now, this can come in a lot of different ways, meaning that oftentimes when we think of speaking, we think of keynotes, we think of kind of this, this large stage type of environment. But as we both know, there’s a lot of different ways that speaking can look. So there are absolutely keynotes, there are workshops and breakouts and small small groups and large groups. And you may just do a, a one hour block. You may do a five day thing with 30, 30 people, and really go deep on a topic in this day and age, thanks to the pandemic. There’s massive amount of opportunities with virtual. So all that to say that, that whenever it comes to preparing your talk, it can look a lot of different ways.
GB (08:48):
And I think that’s also part of what makes the speaking industry interesting and unique is that there’s gonna be some people who are listening and watching like, Hey, I would, I would love, love to do 50, 75, a hundred speaking gigs a year. And other people are like, that’s totally unappealing, but I would love to do five or 10. And I just don’t know, how do I find those five? Or how do I find those 10? And what do I speak about how much do I charge and how did this work? And so it can look a lot of different ways depending on what it is that you are trying to accomplish. But again, the P there is to prepare your talk, prepare that solution to the problem that you’re solving.
RV (09:18):
Okay. So let’s assume that you’ve got those, which is a giant assumption. Those are both very, absolutely very difficult things. Now, now you have your product to sell what happens next.
GB (09:29):
Yeah. So the E is to establish yourself as the expert. And so there are two key marketing assets that every speaker needs. Number one is you need a website. And number two is you need a demo video. So in this day and age, if you don’t have a website, you don’t exist. It’s hard for people to take you seriously. A demo video is one of those things that also feels a little bit fuzzy to people’s like, what exactly does that mean? I’ve heard that a sizzle reel, that sort of thing. What do I put in it? You know, what doesn’t need to be in it. So think of it kind like a movie trailer, the point of a movie trailer, as you take like a, a two hour movie, you’ll boil it down to two or three minutes. And within those two or three minutes, you have an idea of who’s in it.
GB (10:04):
What’s the plot, what’s the theme. What’s the genre. And the point of a demo video and the point of a movie trailer is to make you want to see more. So you wanna think about it in this way. If I’m an event planner, if I’m a decision maker, I am in the risk mitigation business, meaning that if I hire you Roy, to get up on my stage and I hand you a microphone, and I’m asking you to talk to my thousand attendees at that audience, anything you say can and will be used against me. So I need you. I need to make sure that you make me look good. And again, you and I have both had that experience before where
RV (10:34):
You and don’t make me look bad. Like the absolutely the number one objective is to not suck.
GB (10:42):
If
RV (10:42):
You that’s true, you are not terrible. You’re, you’ve got a long way for that meeting planner.
GB (10:47):
Right? And so whenever they’re making that decision, oftentimes they are putting their neck on the line. They’re putting their butt on the line by hiring you and going to bat for you. No, no, we need to have the speaker trust me. And so they don’t need to see necessarily like a, an entire video or an entire full length presentation of your talk. They just need to see a few minutes of it in the same way that there’s a lot of movies that may be amazing movies that neither you or I have seen just cuz like I solved two minutes of the trailer and I just knew like that wasn’t my cup of tea. It’s not what I’m looking for. Maybe it’s an amazing movie, just not what I’m looking for. And so that’s for, for an event planner for a decision maker, they need to see a couple of minutes there of your presentation, especially if they’re going to pay you. But especially as you are growing in your, in your speaking business and wanting to share that message with, with bigger audiences and some higher profile stages, that demo video becomes more and more important.
RV (11:36):
So are most of the demos that you’re seeing and, and you’re using. And are, are they, are you saying they, most of them are two to three minutes.
GB (11:45):
Yeah. I recommend like short, less is more. You’re doing shorter
RV (11:48):
Ones.
GB (11:48):
You can, yeah, you can absolutely have you know, a longer video, a 10 minute video, a 15 minute video. But you think about from again from an event planner decision maker standpoint, whenever they are considering hiring you as a speaker, they’re not just looking at you, they’re looking at you and five or six, seven other speakers. And so they don’t have time to go through 30 minutes of video per speaker trying to determine whether or not it’s a fit. So they’re going to look at the initial kind of two or three minutes there and then they’re gonna probably whittle it down to two or three, maybe have a committee or board meeting to kind of determine who might be a good fit. And then maybe they wanna watch, you know, 10 or 15 minutes, but also think about it from the perspective of anybody watching any video.
GB (12:25):
Right? Anytime like someone just think about like a, a friend or a family member send you a video. Oh, I just saw this. This is hilarious. You gotta check this out. The first thing any of us do when we click on that link is we look to the lower left corner and look at the timestamp to see how long it is. If it’s more than a couple of minutes, like that’s an eternity in online video land ain. Nobody got time for that. So you wanna keep your video short, keep your video concise. So yeah, I think two, three, maybe four minutes is, is plenty to really convey what you need to, what you need to show to an event planner or decision maker.
RV (12:55):
Okay. All right. So demo video short to the like give them a sense of a taste of what it’s like to have you. And that’s what you’re saying between that and your website. You’re establishing yourself as the expert, which is the E
GB (13:07):
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there’s a, there’s plenty of things that you could do, but as far as getting, going and getting your foot in the door with decision makers and event planners, those are two of the key tools that you really need.
RV (13:18):
And what about start looking, let me ask you specifically about the you know, like in the old speaker days they used to, it used to be the one sheet and it was like, you have to have this one page, you know, sheet on your talk and who you are. Do you still recommend that? Do you still see that being in use? Like, are you finding that that’s not really necessary anymore?
GB (13:37):
Yeah, I think personally I think it’s less and less necessary or relevant because I think that’s essentially what your website is. And so one thing that’s important for any speaker to think about is, and I’d say maybe personal brand is, I know for me, when I got started, all I was trying to do was book gigs, book, gigs, bookcases book, that’s all I wanted to do. So I wasn’t worried about, you know, being a podcast or being an author or doing a course or any number of other things. Like all I wanted to do was book gigs. And so my website was specifically designed around that. Whereas again, one of the nice things with speaking is that it it’s, it can be fairly flexible. There’s some people that wanted 100% of their business is speaking. And some people, 5% of their business is speaking.
GB (14:15):
It’s not, it’s not, not that one’s better, worse than the other, but you gotta be really clear for yourself on how that kind of fits in. Meaning maybe you’re just trying to book a couple gigs and speaking’s a very small percentage of your business. Then you want your website to reflect that. And so maybe it’s not on, on the homepage or it’s not kind of a priority thing. Maybe it is more of a secondary thing on a secondary page. That’s totally fine. But oftentimes what the, the primary goal is for you as a speaker needs to be reflected in your marketing assets.
RV (14:43):
Okay. All right. A,
GB (14:46):
Hey acquire, paid speaking gigs. Now this is the part that, again, that we wanna, we wanna fast forward to, but again, I think this is also a good chance to kind of stop step back, look here of going, okay. I wanna fast forward to this, but again, if you don’t have these other foundational pieces of place, it’s
RV (15:01):
A breakdown.
GB (15:01):
It’s really hard to book gigs. If, if you’re just gonna like, yeah, man, just tell me how to book gigs. Like, okay, well, who do you speak to? What problem do you solve? I don’t know. I’ll speak to one, whatever. How do I book gigs like that?
RV (15:09):
Well, and not only that, what I would say grant is it’s also not only is it difficult to book gigs, it actually works against you because you go to a speaker’s bureau or you go to an A-list client and you don’t have your stuff together. You might get one shot. I mean, I talk about this with podcast all the time. Like people come to me, can you introduce me to ed? My luck? Can you introduce me to Lewis house? Can you introduce me to a publisher? And I’m telling, and I’m going, I will do it when you are ready and promise. I promise you, you don’t want me to go too early, cuz they’re gonna give you one look. And if you don’t make it through the gate, the next time you come around, they’re gonna go. And I already saw them I’ll pass. Right? So it’s like, you gotta, when you get the shot, you gotta have your stuff dialed in and be ready. Otherwise it works against you to be there too early.
GB (15:55):
Yeah, absolutely. And, and so and in fact we were just talking a little bit before we started recording here about the the NSA convention. It was a national speakers association or national convention happened to be this year in our backyard here in the national area. But at the, at the event I was catching up with a speaker friend of mine that has done very, very well. And he was wanting to get in with a bureau. I’m, I’m good friends with a a bureau here in town that I think you do some work with as well. And so I was talking with the, the president of that bureau and, and I was talking with this other speaker and I said, Hey, do you want me to make an introduction? Me knowing that this guy’s ready and he could, he could absolutely connect with him, made the introduction, they hit it off.
GB (16:33):
They continued to keep in touch. And I think they’re gonna start doing some work together. But again, the point being is I think especially early on speakers are going, like, how do I get in with a bureau? How do I get in with the agent? And it’s kind of this catch 22, where, where that if you’re not already consistently booking gigs, especially at a decent fee, then bureaus, aren’t gonna be interested in you. And typically once you get going and you build some momentum and you’re doing a lot of gigs then you don’t necessarily need a bureau or an agent. And so one of the best things that you can do whenever it comes to acquiring paid speaking gigs is learn how to do this on your own, rather than being dependent on some other group or organization. That’s just going to do that.
GB (17:11):
So it there this, and far as booking gigs, I think it’s, it’s easy to kind of create some type of mystique around it. Like there’s some like secret code that you have to have to be able to connect with people, but it, it’s not. It’s a matter of having a system and a process to consistently reach out, to follow up with decision makers and event planner. So if I reach out to an event planner, who’s working on a conference and you know, next spring, I’m not trying to convince them that they already that they need to have a speaker. They’re already planning on having a speaker. I’m just showing them why I may be a good for, for that event. So so having a, a system and a process to reach out to events, to follow up with events, not just say, Hey, I, you know, I have my website, I have my demo video, and now I’m gonna sit back and I’m wait for the phone to ring, or I’m gonna post some such some stuff on social media, or I’m going to post some create a podcast or I’m gonna post some YouTube videos.
GB (18:01):
And then I’m going to reactively. Hopefully people magically find me like that. Doesn’t work. Speaking is very much a momentum business. And so there’s a a, a, a friend of mine in the, the speaking space who always says, the more you speak, the more you speak and whenever you speak, it does tend to lead to some of these organic opportunities of repeat business of word, of mouth, of referrals, amongst other speakers or event planners, or attendees that are in the audience. But you have to start to plant some seeds to in terms of booking gigs, instead of again, just building a website and hoping that people magically find out about you.
RV (18:36):
So this is effectively sales. You have to identify some prospects, you have to contact them, whether it’s by, by phone or by email or by referral introduction or they see you, or they see you somewhere. But like you have to reach out to them, tell ’em about your product or service, and then follow up with them to help them make a decision. I mean, that, is that what you’re saying? There’s not like a secret
GB (19:00):
A thousand percent. Yeah, absolutely. I, I don’t think there is necessarily some, some magical secret. It it’s stuff that that absolutely works. It’s worked for years and years and years. It’s just one of those things that most speakers don’t enjoy or most speakers don’t want to do. Like, yeah, I just wanna, I just wanna stand on stage. I don’t really wanna do sales. I don’t really wanna do marketing. I don’t really want to talk about myself. I, I get that. We all understand that, but like that’s part of the business. There reminds me a lot of there’s a book emo by Michael Gerber and he talks about the difference between huge, the illustration of someone who is an entrepreneur who owns a bakery. And he talks about the difference between being a good baker and running a bakery. And those are two different skill sets.
GB (19:41):
Meaning maybe you make the best breads or cupcakes or cakes or whatever it may be. You’re an amazing baker, but being a great baker, that’s not automatically translate to you being running a great bakery. And the same thing is true with speakers. There are so many speakers that are amazing on stage. They have phenomenal content, but a big part of being a successful speaker is the sales is the marketing is following up, is being amazing off stage, which has little to, nothing to do with how you present on stage. And so you have to recognize that that a big part of being a speaker has nothing to do with you being on stage giving a good message. Does that matter? Absolutely. That stuff is super important, but a big, I would say a bigger part of being successful as a speaker is what happens off stage in terms of the sales and marketing efforts that you put in.
RV (20:28):
You mentioned social media, how much does social media just getting your honest opinion here in assessment of speaking fees, getting the gigs, you know, how much does social media play into this? Is it, is that how you get gigs? Does it matter with your fee? Is it completely irrelevant? Is it, you know, all that matters? Like, just give, give me your, your opinion on that.
GB (20:52):
Yeah. My 2 cents would be I think it depends on the event planner and it depends on the industry and kind of what their, their criteria are. Okay. So lemme give an example. So there are some event planners, some decision makers who are gonna put a lot of stock into what someone’s online, social media clout, and platform is going to look like, right? In some cases that’s gonna be a big deal, other event planners, depending on the nature of what it is that they are looking for, may not care about that at all in the same way that some event planners may be looking for a speaker who has, you know, some a significant accomplishment or achievement that the audience is gonna recognize. Maybe they, you know, won a gold medal. They played in the NBA, they play some type of professional sport.
GB (21:36):
They have climbed Mount Everest blindfolded in their shorts. You know, they, there’s some type of specific thing that they’re looking for. And so it kind of depends on the event. And so for me personally, I don’t, I don’t put a ton of stock in social media. And again, that’s just kind of me personally, does that help or hurt me? I’m sure. In some cases it, it does hurt and that in some cases it doesn’t matter. And so it’s kind of, you know, we were talking a little bit about this before we started recording of as entrepreneurs. There’s a thousand different things that you could do in your business that move the needle, right. And as an entrepreneur, you can’t do them all. And so you have to kind of determine and prioritize. What’s going to have the biggest impact in your business.
GB (22:19):
So let me give you a quick illustration of this. I remember several years ago my wife and I were interested in doing some real estate investing, didn’t know a ton about it was kind of intrigued by, it reached out to a friend who had done a, a ton of real estate. Investing, knew all about it. And I said, Hey, man, I’m, I’m just getting into this world. I’m trying to learn here. And I said I said, you have all these different types of real estate investing. Okay. You have single family homes and, and multi-family homes and apartments and mobile home parks and raw land and commercial properties. And short-term rental Airbnb on and on and on the list goes, and then I said, which one is best? And he said, yes. And I was like, that’s not helpful. And I was like, what do you mean by that?
GB (22:56):
And he’s like, they all work. What you won’t find though, is you won’t find someone who’s doing everything. And so we can both point to a speaker right now who’s killing it, using Instagram or a podcast or Facebook or Twitter or social media and someone else who’s absolutely killing it. Who’s not touching any of those things. So it’s not necessarily that you have to do one or that you have to do the other, but ultimately I think determining for you for what it is you’re trying to accomplish based on the in addition to the industry that you’re in which you’re speaking on and determining if that’s something that, that is a big part of what it is that you’re trying to do and, and build.
RV (23:31):
Yeah. Interesting. All right. So we have to acquire the gig. We’ve got everything put to place. We gotta go find these people. We gotta follow up with them, reach out to them, follow up with them. What’s the K
GB (23:43):
K is no when to scale, no, when to scale. And what we mean by that is people who are interested in speaking are also probably interested in a lot of other things. They also probably want to do coaching or consulting or write a book or do a podcast, or do a course. And so you can do any number of things, but you can’t do all the things at once. So something’s gonna come first. Something’s gonna come last. And this is where I think you do such a great job of teaching. How does speaking fit into the mix of the, in of the bigger pie and what it is that you’re going to accomplish? Cause like we touched on, there are speakers who do five gigs a year and speakers that do 50 gigs a year. And it’s not that one’s better, worse than the other, but you’ve gotta determine for yourself where does speaking fit into the mix of what it is that you are trying to accomplish?
GB (24:21):
So again, just realizing like you, you can’t do it all. And, and but being clear on, Hey, this is how speaking fits in, or this is how speaking is a, a driver for other parts of my business. So let me give you a quick example of this. There’s a, a client that we worked with a while back and they were doing they were doing 20 or 30 speaking gigs a year, but they were doing it as lead generation for their coaching business. And so they would do a lot of free speaking engagements, but for the right type of audience and they were generating literally hundreds of thousands of, of dollars in revenue for their coaching business. But the whole thing was built upon the Legion that they were getting from these speaking engagements that they were doing. So again, the point being is, is for them, it made sense to do a lot of free engagements, but for the right type of audience, cuz that’s what was building their coaching business. Whereas for someone else, like it may, may not make sense to do as many free gigs. And so again, just determining like how does speaking best fit into the mix of what you want to accomplish?
RV (25:19):
Mm-Hmm
GB (25:53):
Yeah. At a simplified version. Yeah. There, there’s certainly a large element of that, of, of identifying potential decision makers, event planners, reaching out to them. Some of it is to your point of figuring out who actually is the decision maker. So you know, just because you, you know, just because someone is a, a VP of whatever doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re the ones that are, are ultimately pulling the trigger. Another thing to think through and be aware of when you’re reaching out to people is what’s the timeline for when they are making decisions about speakers. So for example, if we’re recording this right now and in the summer and you come across an amazing event, that’s happening next month there’s a high likelihood they’ve already picked their speaker for. So reaching out and saying like, Hey, I saw this event that’s happening next month.
GB (26:36):
You should totally hire me. It’s like, no, no, like you already missed the boat on that. So another thing that we always work with speakers on is to really have a long term perspective on this, that you are in the relationship of building business. And the reality is that relationships take time. I think, think of one particular event where I, I reached out to for five straight years with this event planner and just following up, Hey, we booked another speaker. Oh, that’s cool. Remind me what you’ll start. It looks like you’ll start reviewing speakers again for next year’s event, you know, in a couple of months. Awesome. Is it okay if I follow up with you then, and then following up with them then did that for five straight years. And I don’t know if eventually they just ran into options, but eventually they, they hired me.
GB (27:15):
But I think again, having a, a, a long term perspective on this to reach out, to follow up so often what happens is if you reach out to an event planner decision maker and, and, and they say, well, we’re not looking for speakers right now, but feel free to check back with us in four months. They don’t expect you to follow up with them. They don’t expect you to reach out. And the, the reality is, is like most speakers don’t and most speakers are just kinda leave the ball in their court of just saying like, well, Hey, if you know, if you ever need a speaker, I hope you think of me like that just doesn’t work. If they say, Hey, we’re gonna start reviewing speakers in November, then you would say, Hey, is it okay if I follow up with you in November?
GB (27:49):
And they’re gonna say, absolutely, and then have a system in place, whether that’s a CRM or, or post-it note or whatever you need to do, have a system or process in place that you’re going to follow up with them in December. And there’s a lot more we could, you know, dig into or in November a lot more. We can dig into exactly what to do exactly what to say there, but again, having systems in place to reach out, to, to follow up with people so that whenever they’re ready to make a decision that ultimately they’re thinking of and, and deciding on you,
RV (28:14):
Mm-Hmm
GB (28:52):
All right. I’ll give you a bunch of different answers on this. And so first of all, lemme give you a shortcut answer. So we have a, a free speaking fee calculator. So if you wanna check that out, it’s over at my speaker, feed.com, my speaker feed.com. It’s totally free, but you basically just answer a couple multiple choice questions. There it’ll spit out a number of what you could be charging there. And, and Roy, as you well know, speaking fees are much more of an art than a science. There’s a lot of variables that go into it. I’ll give you a couple of variables. One is gonna be your industry. You can charge more in some industries versus others. You can charge more speaking to corporations than you can to nonprofits. Typically you can charge more to colleges than you could to elementary schools.
GB (29:26):
It’s not that one industry is better worse than the other, that each pond kind of has its own kind of different fee ranges that they’re used to another factor of variable is gonna be your marketing assets. So we talked about your website, your demo video earlier, whether we like it or not, whether we want admit it or not people judge books by their cover. And so if you are a, you know, let’s say you’re a 10,000, $20,000 speaker and your website, your demo video don’t look sharp. They don’t look professional. And specifically they don’t look on par relative to other speakers who are in that same range. Then an event planner may be looking at or deciding between it’s hard to take you seriously. So it doesn’t mean that you need to have spent tens of thousands of dollars on your marketing assets.
GB (30:04):
You just need to make sure that they look sharp and professional. Another variable is just going to be your your speaking experience, meaning if you’re a brand new speaker, just getting started and you’re just kind of getting your at bats, getting your reps there. You probably won’t be able to charge as much as someone who’s been doing this for five, 10, maybe 20 years. And it’s probably just a better speaker. The way that you get better as a speaker is that you speak, it’s the same way that you get better as a writer, as a podcaster, as you do the thing. And so you and I happen to be decent at speaking, not because we have anything, any special gift or ability, but because we’ve given hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of presentations and all different environments and settings and some that have gone incredibly well and some that have been a complete disaster, but the each time you speak, you’re getting that real time feedback from the audience that helps you to refine your message and your presentation skills.
GB (30:50):
So those would be a couple of the different variables that go into your speaking fee. And let me piggyback and, and kind of answer another kind of similar question there, which is is it okay to speak for free or speaking for free a bad thing? And I think oftentimes that that speaking for free has like this negative connotation that if you are speaking for free, you’re not a real speaker or people aren’t gonna take you seriously. And so what I would say is it’s okay to speak for free caveat, as long as you know why you’re doing it, don’t just do it out of the goodness of your heart. You are running a business and you have to treat this as a business. And so one of the things I heard early on actually from a mutual friend, Jason Dorsey, he said, when you’re speaking for free, you’re providing something of value.
GB (31:33):
And so you need to receive something of value in exchange. And that thing that you receive in exchange may or may not be in the form of a check. So there’s a lot of different ways that you could receive value that may not come in the form of currency. Okay. So it may be, for example, let’s say that you go speak at something. And I mentioned this client earlier, who does a lot of coaching. And so, you know, if you go speak and you have some type of backend book or product or service or coaching or consulting thing that you offer, you go speak at the right type of audience and it generates significant sales on the back end. Speaking for free may make a ton of sense for you. Maybe it makes sense to speak for free. If you know that this is gonna get my foot in the door with this client, and it’s going to potentially lead to a bunch of other events.
GB (32:15):
I remember a few years ago, I was speaking in an event and I took a, a slightly lower fee, but I, I made an arrangement with the decision maker and said, Hey, assuming I’d do a good job. And the whole thing’s predicated on me showing up and delivering doing my part. Then I want you to introduce me to five other event planners that you think would be a good fit that you and I both agree I would be a good fit for. And if you can make an endorsement recommendation and a personal introduction to them, to that decision maker, it means nothing. It costs them nothing, but to me it’s worth something. So another quick example would be a friend of mine spoke was invited to speak at something in Europe a couple years ago, and he doesn’t do a ton of speaking.
GB (32:53):
So we were kind of talking through speaking fees and I said, Hey, here’s, here’s one thing you could do is you can negotiate to have them also fly your spouse over your wife over and extend the stay for you at the, at the place where they’re gonna be doing the event. You can turn it into a European vacation on their dime. So again, the point being is there’s a lot of different ways that you can receive something of value that may or may not involve a whether or not you got paid and got a check for it.
RV (33:18):
Mm-Hmm
GB (34:10):
Thanks buddy. I appreciate it.
Ep 313: Creating Videos That Go Viral with Travis Blakely and Teun Van Der Lugt | Recap Episode
RV (00:07):
Hey brand builder, Rory Vaden here. Thank you so much for taking the time to check out this interview as always, it’s our honor to provide it to you for free and wanted to let you know there’s no big sales pitch or anything coming at the end. However, if you are someone who is looking to build and monetize your personal brand, we would love to talk to you and get to know you a little bit and hear about some of your dreams and visions and share with you a little bit about what we’re up to to see if we might be a fit. So if you’re interested in a free strategy call with someone from our team, we would love to hear from you. You can do that at brand builders, group.com/pod call brand builders, group.com/pod call. We hope to talk to you soon.
AJV (00:54):
All right. Y’all here I am on the recap episode of my conversation with Travis and Tony from interlight media y’all such a good interview, such good human. So insightful worked with so many amazing content creators anyone from Lewis Howes to Jay Shetty you like so, so many individuals right soon to be AJ and Rory vaden
AJV (01:48):
And he said he got that from prince back in the day when they were working together. But plan B is just to make sure that plan a works. In other words, don’t give up. Right. when you don’t think you’re seeing progress, you are, you just don’t see it. It’s, it’s hard to see the forest through the tree sometimes, and you gotta acknowledge the mini victories along the way, because there are some, there’s a victory every day. There’s progress made every single day, but we gotta be looking for that. But don’t give up, don’t quit cuz you think it’s hard? I just there’s so much power and just going, man. It is it’s. There is no overnight success, right? There is gradual consistent success. So just don’t give up. Right? So plan B to make sure plan a works. I love that.
AJV (02:35):
It was such a good, true thing. Second thing we were talking about how do you create more authenticity in video, which is a huge part of what they do at interlink media. Like their tagline is making videos go viral. And so I said, well, how do you create more authenticity on videos? And I love what they said. They said, you’ve gotta focus on the feeling that you want your audience to feel. And that was like really important to hear. I think often I don’t think about that. I don’t know about you, but I often am thinking about like, what content do I wanna share? What point do I wanna make? What story do I want to share, but I’m not thinking about the feeling, but I know for a fact of just listening to this conversation, if I know that the feeling I want to share is hope I will come at it with a different angle, a different tone a different dimension of anything from my voice to my, my facial expressions, my examples, but I gotta focus on the feeling.
AJV (03:39):
Right. And, and it’s true because it’s like, we’ve all heard. It’s like, people don’t remember what you say as much as they remember how you made them feel. So if you wanna come across with more authenticity, it’s like focus on the feeling that you want your audience to experience when you’re sharing your content, when you’re sharing your message. And that’s always easier to do when you’re talking about something that you actually care about. So talk about what you actually care about. That makes a difference. Second thing around this authenticity is ask yourself before you start, who is that one person that you need to show up for today? Right? So before you start your video, before you start sharing your content, before you hit record, ask yourself who is that one person in my life that I need to show up for? And what do I need to say to them?
AJV (04:35):
What do they need to hear? And Travis was talking about how I’m always constantly reminding myself if I only had 30 days to live a little bit morbid, but if I only had 30 days to live, what is the one message I would wanna share who needs to hear it? And who is that person I need to show up for that one person. Just having that one person in your mind. Really again, changes the tone and the feeling and the emotion of what you’re trying to say again, back to that feeling that you’re trying to get across. So who is that one person, keep that person in your mind visualize them, see them, talk to that person and ask yourself how you need to show up for them. What do they need from you? What do they need to hear from you?
AJV (05:20):
And then last but not least, this is from Travis and Tony, both. But I think this is so important. It’s focus your efforts on one message. And on one platform, we talk about this all the time at brand builders group that you break through Shehan wall you break through the noise by intentional focused effort while it’s no different on social media, you do not have to be everywhere all the time. So pick one platform and do it exceptionally well, then add another platform, calm down, do not exhaust yourself, pick one and do it really, really well. Thanks. Y’all hope you enjoyed go listen to the full episode and we’ll see you next time on the influential personal brand.
Ep 312: Creating Videos That Go Viral with Travis Blakely and Teun van der Lugt
RV (00:07):
Hey brand builder, Rory Vaden here. Thank you so much for taking the time to check out this interview as always, it’s our honor to provide it to you for free and wanted to let you know there’s no big sales pitch or anything coming at the end. However, if you are someone who is looking to build and monetize your personal brand, we would love to talk to you and get to know you a little bit and hear about some of your dreams and visions and share with you a little bit about what we’re up to to see if we might be a fit. So if you’re interested in a free strategy call with someone from our team, we would love to hear from you. You can do that at brand builders, group.com/pod call brand builders, group.com/pod call. We hope to talk to you soon.
AJV (00:53):
Hey, all this is AJ Vaden. Welcome to the influential personal brand podcast. I am one of your co-hosts here today, and I’ve got two friends on the podcast today, which is not normal. We usually don’t get two. So double the fun for the next 45 minutes, get excited. But these are actually two newer friends of mine. Met them through a really good friend of mine Carrie, Jack, but then we learned through conversations that, wow, we actually have a lot of friends in common. And in fact, Tony and Travis have done work with some of people that we’re super connected to like, like Louis House and lots of different shared connections along the way. And I love, I love what they’re doing. And I actually started following Travis on social media. You guys will get to hear from both Travis and Tony in just a second.
AJV (01:46):
But I really got interested because of his like motivational inspirational messages. And then I came to learn like, oh, they actually help videos go viral. And when I first started fol, I didn’t know, that’s what they did. I just really liked his vibe. And I thought what he was doing was really cool. And then we had mutual friends and then I started like stalking their website and going through all their different things. And I’m like, wow, you guys have had some amazing clients like prince CA and Louis House and Tom Billue and some like really Jay Shetty, some like really amazing clients that you’ve done work with. And so, so glad that we got connected and we’ve got like this unique, common set of friends that we didn’t even know existed. And so I invited them to come on the show today and here are two reasons that you wanna stick around is one.
AJV (02:37):
I know that 99% of you who are listening would like to know, is there some sort of secret formula and how to make a video go viral? And I’m not saying that Travis and Tony have the answer to this secret formula, but they might, you have to stick around to find out. And the second second reason is because video is king, right? Video is where it’s at. There is so much power in video. I have my own beliefs of why that is. There’s a human connection part. But there is also some really good dos and don’ts of how to do video successfully. And we’re gonna talk about some of those two and in between, we’re gonna get to learn about two really awesome human beings who have incredible backgrounds and who have worked for incredible individuals and companies and have outstanding work. So without further ado, both of you welcome to the show.
TB (03:29):
Thank you. Is a massive pleasure.
TV (03:34):
Yes. Thank you for having us.
AJV (03:36):
Oh my gosh. It’s gonna be so fun. And Tony is is his morning. It’s our afternoon. Yeah. And so you’re in Amsterdam, right?
TV (03:45):
No, right now I’m in, I’m in Tokyo right now. Oh, you’re
AJV (03:47):
In Tokyo.
TV (03:47):
AJV (03:50):
I’m pretty sure you’re not in Tokyo. You’re you’re, you’re traveling the globe. Alright, so I’m gonna give both of you guys a separate chance. So I’m gonna start with Tony. So, you know, you’ve done some pretty cool work and you know, a company that you know is so funny. I was talking to my husband about this and he goes, I’m sorry, he he’s done video work for, for who? For mine valley
TV (04:27):
Right.
TV (05:19):
Youtube was definitely out there. Facebook was definitely out there, but I don’t think a lot of people saw that there’s a big connection between business and social media. Back then it was just, Hey, let’s, it’s cool. Let’s make a post, a video on social media and see what happens. So I didn’t see any direction. And then, then I already like I love to travel. I wanted to leave my own country and but at the same time oh, how old was I then back 24, something like that. I kind of had in my mind, also a bit of a social pressure that you need to find a bit of a career path at one point. So that’s what I was hoping to find something that combined boat like somewhere I could like, you know, leave my country and yeah, find a career basically.
TV (06:04):
And that’s, I don’t, I don’t really don’t know. That was just, I think just a random YouTube video that that, that saw that, which I saw mind value as a company. And I just really wanted to work there. I don’t know. It was just the whole vibe that they portrayed, like the, the, the personal development, which I was really into the mission that they have of changing education which, which I still firmly stand behind as well. Like because like yet, like school, wasn’t the best for me, for me either, maybe for a lot of people. So I really believed everything they say. So I just really wanted to work there. It didn’t even matter if I needed to do video or something else. I just really wanted to work there. So yeah, I, I applied I didn’t get into the film team because like, they, they have a whole separate film team, but cuz I was not experienced enough, but so I joined the customer support team, but then within two months they, they saw Tony, we need you in the film team actually.
TV (06:57):
So I’m like, oh, okay, cool. Let’s, let’s get, let’s get going. And that’s how, that’s how I got there that so cool. Yeah, so, so I really went for, like, I worked there for three, for three years. I would say I learned like everything that I needed to learn about video in this space. You know, when it comes to marketing videos, product launches event videos and most importantly social media videos and yeah, that’s and after three years I thought it’s time to go on my own, quit mind valley on very good terms and moved to Bali because mind valley itself is based in GU Lumpur. So Bali wasn’t so far around the corner from there moved there and I really don’t know how to this day, but on some random day Travis sent me a message on Instagram and I have a following like I mean back then, like it was even like a thousand, so I have no clue where that came from
AJV (07:58):
Oh my gosh. I think there’s two really important things in there that I think is amazing. It’s in this era of the quote unquote great resignation that people talk about I love what Ariana Huffington says. She goes, it’s not the great resignation, it’s the great reevaluation of what are people wanting out of their work experience and to see that you found a company on YouTube yeah. Through a video and said I am for what they believe in. I don’t even care if I can’t do what I wanna do. I’ll do whatever they’ll take me for you do not hear a lot of that right now, especially from millennials. And I can say that because I am one too.
AJV (08:55):
I just wanna work for this video. Yeah. I think that’s a great reminder to all of us that having a great presence online and offline really means a lot, not just for income and revenue and sales, but also for talent, attraction, talent, acquisition, and retention. Like that’s pretty cool to hear. And I think the second thing you said that I wanna highlight to everyone listening, cause I think this is substantial is that when Travis found you, however miraculous event occurred, that that happened, you had less than a thousand followers. So it ain’t about the followers. Y’all right. It’s not always about the followers. So don’t get obsessed with the follower, count thinking somehow what you’re doing doesn’t matter that it is just not true. It’s just not true. Yeah. yeah, so, so cool. Both of those things I love that. Okay. All right. Travis, tell us, I wanna know cuz like, for those of you who’t know, like Travis is the CEO of inter like media he and I have got these like awesome little like growing group of like mutual friends. So tell us like how, how did you get into this space? Like why start this type of, you know, viral video, social media, social media management company, like how’d you get into that? Like you also are doing your own personal brand, like why that like fill in?
TB (10:14):
Yeah. whew. Where did I start? I loving
AJV (10:17):
Question. Right.
TB (10:21):
So I come from St. Louis, Missouri. I grew up, you know, in children’s homes did had a very bleak future. Didn’t really have much to look forward to and didn’t really know what I wanted to do in my life. So as I got older I ran into a gentleman by the name of Princey, by the way I ran into him online. First I seen his video, he had a video called something about saving hip hop. I can’t remember the exact name of the, the video and this was back in like 2009. And it was a very similar thing to what Tony just said. I thought what prince was doing was super amazing. And at the time he was, you know, pretty local. He didn’t really have a whole lot of followers. And, but I believed in that mission, you know, he had something called make smart, cool, smart, being an acronym for sophisticated minds and revolutionizing thought.
TB (11:23):
So I thought that was a pretty powerful message that he created wanted to be a part of it. I, I felt like it was time for me to really dive into my mission. Ironically, this is, I was around the same age that Tony was talking. I was 25 years old at the time. And so as I looked more into it, me and him connected me and him developed a really close friendship. I mean, we were best friends for a very, very long time. And during that time period from 2010 to 2000, I met him in 2009, but from 2010 to 2014, we spent that time really trying to figure out how do we connect with people online, right. How do we go viral? Right. He always had this philosophy of why should I do a show in front of a thousand people when I could do a video and get it in front of a hundred thousand people.
TB (12:22):
So that always clicked in my mind that always let me know the power of video at that point. Like yo the, the, the online spaces where it’s at, because you could definitely connect with, with more minds that way. And so in 2014, kind of like the code was broken, right. Where we went from, you know, getting maybe a few hundred thousand views to maybe a million views to now a video getting over a hundred million views. And then every video after that was getting hundreds of millions of views is just like, wouldn’t stop. Like it was to the point where it’s like, yo, this is like crazy. Like what next? Right?
TB (13:17):
We went through four years trying to figure this out. And there was a lot of doubt creeping up. A lot of times that we thought it just wasn’t gonna happen. But yeah, so, you know, eventually as you know, we were continually going viral, people were reaching out, you know you know, I, since I was, you know, one prince with Princey since the beginning, I was, I, I knew everything because I ran a social, I was part of the videos. I was part of the creation process. Like I literally did everything with them. So I, I knew what it took to build that audience, to build that community, what the creation process is like. And so when other people started reaching out people like, you know, Jay and Lewis and, and people like that, trying to figure out, Hey, listen, they kind of like want to, you know, create content and, and, and really kind of like go to the next level.
TB (14:11):
Me and Jay developed a friendship too as well, you know? And we started working together. You know, I ended up working with Lewis from there. I ended up working with Tom, Billy and a bunch of other people, because for me interlight media, the name of my company. It, it stems from that. We all have interlight, you know, we all have a fire inside of us. Right. I believe that everybody has a purpose and that we are, as we are living in our purpose, our purpose is helping to inspire someone else to live theirs. So I am taking my talents to help other people flesh out their stuff, create, build their community out reach as many people as possible. So their inspiration can meet as many people as possible, and their impact can reach as many as possible. And it just continues to have a compound effect. But yeah, so this has been a life long dream of mine. I am thankfully living my dream now. And it’s been quite a journey.
AJV (15:17):
Yeah. That’s so cool. I love, I love what you said too, is like about the name of the company inner light because there there’s this light within all of us. And I think too, it’s kind of like, what you do is it’s, it’s helping showcase the inner light. Right. And one of the best ways you can do that is on video. And just in social, you just, you’ve got more reach. And there’s, there’s one thing you said, but I wanna go back to it’s like, y’all were trying to figure this out for like four years. Yeah. Not four weeks, not four months, but four years. Yeah. And I think that’s significant because we all know that we live in a society of like, we want it, we want it right now. And you know, it’s, we often are talking to people in our community at brain builders group where they’ve been at, they’ve been working at building their brand for six months. And they’re just like, man, I’m just, we’re not, I’m not seeing the progress. And I’m like, mm-hmm,
TB (16:36):
So two things prince always said something that, you know, was really it’s a really powerful thing you used to say, plan B is to make plan a work. Right. Mm-hmm
TB (17:46):
I am not living my true self. And so for me, I would rather spend every single day living my purpose or trying to fulfill what I am supposed to fulfill. What I know my purpose is than trying to do it for somebody else. Right. Than trying to just go along with the, get along right. Where you’re just like doing things to survive. And that’s not really my thing. I didn’t want do it for the money. I didn’t wanna do it for anything else. I really wanted to have an impact because I, I, I just genuinely have this belief that serving a million people is a much better pursuit of your gifts and talents than trying to get a million dollars. Because if you serve a million people more than likely, you’re gonna get a million dollars anyway. But even if you don’t the service and the act in itself is gonna be fulfilling for you. Oh yeah. So for me, I have always had this idea, especially coming from a very poverty background that once I was able to have that impact and serve people, that was gonna be my fulfillment. And I always had this idea that like getting the money was gonna be the byproduct anyway. But even if it wasn’t, I’m still gonna be happy. So,
AJV (19:06):
Oh, that’s so good. You know, we have this, you know, reminder for ourselves too. Like my husband, Roy Fain, and I who are business partners, as you guys know, it’s like, we have to constantly remind ourselves it’s about the power of the one, right? Not the 1000 or the a hundred thousand or the 1 million. It’s the power of the one. But because in reality, in real life, if I knew that I changed the life of one person, that would be good enough for me. But somehow we get online, we get on social media and if I only have one like, or one share, it feels like a failure. Yeah. But in real life. Yeah. If I knew that I’d changed the life of one person, it would all be worth it. Yeah. And then somehow online it gets devalued or minimized to what was just one like, and it’s like, well, that’s one person.
AJV (19:58):
Yeah. Right. It’s the power of the, one of trying not to look at the count so much trying and staying focused on the mission. Right. Staying focused on serving, like what you said is like, even if it doesn’t work, it’ll be fulfilling in the process. I love that. That’s so good. Y’all I’m so excited to have you guys on and just talk about this. And so so let’s do that. So for all these listeners out there who are building their personal brands, aspire to do these things and have their message heard right. By the one or the 1 million, whatever it may be. I would love to, I wanna hear from two different perspectives. Right. Cause I’m gonna guess that Tony, I could be wrong, but you prefer to perhaps be behind the scenes.
TV (20:41):
Both. Both ways. Yeah. Like I, I, I like to for sure, like, you know, like I lead a video editing team. I, I make my own, my own videos as well, video editing, but what you do really realize that a lot of these people we work with what I notice at least is that there is still like a gap between the knowledge of creating videos. And what I mean by that, like, everybody can make a video nowadays. That’s that, that’s amazing. You know, like I got an iPhone 13, like the camera on it is like amazing. Like I can create the best videos with that. So I, I encourage people to do that as well, but I, I fully understand that there’s still like a little barrier you need to overtake. And that’s actually like, you know, especially if you’re doing it by yourself, go into a room by yourself, turning it on by yourself, standing in front of the camera, by yourself and getting the energy out of yourself to actually say something. So that’s what I, like, I try to be on set. Like even, even it can be remotely just even just for like that direction, that like energy push. Oh, that’s all them basically. Yeah.
AJV (21:49):
That’s really, I’m important. I’m curious to hear the director mentality in you of going, like, what, what do people need to be doing to be more relatable, personable, engaging charismatic. Like, what are some of the tips that people need to be doing to be better on video? Yeah,
TV (22:10):
Well, like, honestly, I, I think like, especially when, when you’re really starting out the first thing people do and I totally understand it is compare. Like they compare right from the start like, oh, Hey let’s say prince or Jay. I really like what they’re doing. I wanna do that. And they, they then, and then they come to me, like they come forever say, can you, can you make that like, and on my end, as a creation, I’ll always say yes. Yeah, for sure we can do that. There’s no problem. But I think there’s, there’s still a difference in us making a, a crazy edit, like that can go far out of nothing. Yeah. And actually the quality that we’re getting, cuz like we, we, we fail to understand like prince CA or J she Lewis house. These people have been in front of the camera for like years.
TV (22:56):
I would say there’s, there’s just a lot of experience in there that you can’t get out of in like your first take. There’s no way there’s no way which is totally fine. So that’s something that, that you should need to grow into. But the second thing, like it may sound stupid. I really prefer then when people start to go on camera, they really need to loosen up. They really need to loosen up. So that’s why I prefer to be there. So when I’m gonna be on set remotely or in person, I just, you know, like we start making jokes a bit.
AJV (23:35):
10 pushups or 10 shots of either one. They go,
TV (23:39):
Yeah, 10 shots of the
AJV (23:39):
Kilo, like whatever works,
TV (23:41):
Get something
AJV (23:42):
TV (23:42):
Exactly. Exactly. And when it to scripting, like a script is very important, but at the same time, you know, I, I would say like the best, best process for me would always be like, make a script, put it in bullet points and learn that. So you can say it in your own voice. Like if you’re gonna rehearse the exact thing that you wrote down, not saying it’s not possible for sure. It’s possible, but like the greatest, like I’ve met some of the greatest creators. They, they really just read off a script, but it’s hard to get your personality out of a script, especially if you haven’t even read renew yourself. So that’s why the bullet points are so yeah. And, and just get loose, you know, just, you know, make a bit of fun, jump a bit around and don’t worry about the edit. Like in, in the edit we can do everything.
AJV (24:26):
Yeah. You know, it’s interesting because I think, I think that’s a huge part of even like what we see with even people on our team. Like we do this, this doesn’t mean it’s, it’s easy, but there’s some people on our team who are super adverse to video and it’s like, there’s super charismatic, engage human, engage, engaging humans. And then as soon as that red light goes on, they’re like, you’re in the headlight. And I’m like, who are you? And where did you go? Like what, what just happened to our friend? What just happened? And it’s a bizarre thing. And what I have found is that, you know, there’s two things. One is that they are literally trying to remember their script and it’s, you know, one of the things I have to constantly remind myself, it’s like, this is my content. I don’t need a script.
AJV (25:11):
Yeah. I just need to be myself. Why am I scripting out my own content? And it’s because I’m, don’t feel confident, right? It’s not the content it’s like, I’m worried about, does my hair have strays? Like, does my face look fat? Do I have a double chin right now? It’s like, it’s all these little things that we get obsessed with. And we forget, and this is like, my husband tells me this all the time. He goes, if you’re focused on you, that’s why you’re nervous. And he goes, anytime you’re nervous, it’s because you’re focused on yourself. But when you’re focused on others, it’s hard to be nervous. And so we have this little saying in our company, is that when you’re focused on service, it’s hard to be nervous. Mm-Hmm
TV (26:12):
Yeah. And I think, I think it’s a good point that you touched as well when, when it comes comes to, to, to those things. Like one, like, I think like, again, people really under underestimate, like, I mean, you have to have a good edit there, I reckon. And here we are, but
AJV (27:12):
Oh yeah. And it’s like, then you’re talking about 15 things that make no sense.
TV (27:16):
Yeah, exactly. There’s no direction that’s going
AJV (27:18):
Fully aware of these, these videos. Yeah. That’s, that’s super, I think that’s super helpful is like you gotta bullet point out what you have to say, but keep it bullet points, not scripted. And it’s like, then you gotta figure out what’s gonna loosen you up. So play music, do pushups, take tequila shots, like whatever it is, like do what you gotta do to get yourself in a place where you’re not obsessing of what you look like on camera. Now Travis, you’re someone who’s in front of a camera a ton. So I’m curious to hear from you, not only from you yourself, but from working with all these pretty influential individuals who have built really big followings over the years, like, what would you say are the keys to a video? Getting a lot of traction,
TB (28:05):
Getting a lot of traction. That’s a good question. When something is important to you, it’s usually important to somebody else. Hmm. I think probably the most fundamental thing to, to go viral or to make a video that’s meaningful and impactful is don’t base it off information base it off your feelings, meaning like carry that feeling into the video. How do you want somebody to feel right? That is what is gonna get people moving that’s what’s gonna get people to share is the feeling. Obviously you want to talk from a very, I’m a very data driven person, very factual. In fact, if you watch Prince’s video almost in every video, he’s, you know, listening out facts, but it’s more like a, a, he he’s using it. Right. it doesn’t carry the weight. Right? The weight is the feeling. How do you get people to feel a certain type of way?
TB (29:08):
Right? What are the things to say, right. Albert Einstein says, if you can’t explain this simply, you don’t understand it. Mm. So whenever you know, we are going into a video process, it’s about how do we explain this simply in a way that everybody can understand it, but we’re talking about something in a way that people understand that we care about it. Right. so that’s like, like kind of like the key and you carry that in each video. So for example, whenever he makes a video and this is something, you know, I run into when I’m talking to a lot of different entrepreneurs or people that’s making videos is, you know, sometimes I just kind of like wanna create content. It’s like, no, no, no. Every piece of content that you create should be the B like this is the best video you can create right now.
TB (29:55):
Mm-Hmm,
AJV (30:52):
Oh, that’s so good. I love that. You gotta focus on the feeling yeah. That you want people to feel. I think the other thing that you said that I think is so insightful is are you creating your best content right now? Or, you know, it’s like, I think we, so sometimes in this space of like building your personal brand and becoming more well known, we kind of get obsessed with, I gotta have something out. Right? Yeah. And so it’s like, perhaps you’re not doing your best content because you’re just trying to like, get something out. And I love it’s, you know, it’s that whole concept of save the best for first mm-hmm
TB (31:51):
Yeah. So a couple of things first off, you know, when it comes to creating content you have to know your industry. If you, or, you know, know your audience, know who you want to communicate to. So for example, if let’s just say you review baby products, right. Is, should be something you’re passionate about. Is this something you’re passionate about? Is this something you actually care about? Mm-Hmm
TB (32:47):
Mm-Hmm
TB (33:40):
Yeah. Which allows you to build a community of people that love you. Some that like you and some that are like, oh, okay. And then you are also gonna have some people that disagree with you and all that is fine because it’s about building your community and your authenticity. So if you’re consistent, you’re being authentic. You actually like what you’re talking about. And you’re passionate, what you’re talking about. You have some experience in it and you don’t have to be the first. You don’t have to be the best. You just have to be yourself. Mm-Hmm
AJV (34:35):
Oh yeah. I, this was beat into my heads. Like as soon as you started talking, I was like, oh my gosh, I haven’t thought about this quote in years, but this was beaten to my head early on, in my sales career. And you just made me think about, is that people don’t care how much, you know, until they know how much you care. Right. And it’s like, are you talking about stuff that you actually care about? Or you just out there, you know, trying to get that next, you know, sale or that next, whatever. I think that’s so good. And so you kind of teed up and I’d, I’d like to hear both of your perspectives on this. Is this concept of authenticity mm-hmm
AJV (35:27):
It’s like, you know, I’ve, I’ve got this one person in mind. It’s like, their content is amazing. And they’re amazing. It does not come across that way, but it’s like, man, if would just read their book or have a one on one over coffee, it’s like, they’re so wise. And so insightful that yet, because of this issue they have with like putting themselves out there, they’re kind of like the world’s best kept secret and not a good way. Right. So I wanna, I’d love to hear both of your perspectives. Like how do you create more authenticity for social media or your website or your podcast, or just anything to do with video when that’s really hard.
TV (36:08):
Yeah. Yeah. Like, I, I, I can if I can first say something actually that, because that’s, that’s a very common problem. I, I can totally get that. Like, it’s totally like, like you said, like you said before, the moment the red light goes on, like it’s, it’s, you’re in a different, different zone. So, so I totally get, so there’s two things to that one, obviously. And I think that that’s, that’s the, the, maybe the bad side of social media media, everything seems to be so easy. Everything seems to be so easy. So it’s very easy to compare yourself. The moment you get started to like Hey, you know, I want to be Gary V always tells me to be consistent and always post to video every day. So let me do that. And that that’s, that’s super hardening. Cuz then people forget to understand one.
TV (36:52):
He’s been doing it for quite some years. Two. He has a big team around him. There’s, there’s, there’s a whole, there’s a difference perspective in it that you don’t really see by watching it’s a machine behind it. So one, it takes time, you know, never, never think that the moment you start is gonna be the best ever. And second thing is like, it is true. There are two different types of people, one that can, that are just really good on camera. And everybody can learn that for sure. But it takes time. One PE some people are just naturally they go from the start. But a lot of people, like you said, you just said like, if, if, if you start talking to them, you get so much good information out of them, but it doesn’t translate well on camera. Well, what does that mean?
TV (37:31):
Like, for me that means like, okay, what if you just ha, if you record a conversation, then you know, why don’t you record like a zoom call with somebody? Like, we’re like, girl, you know, like, like a podcast like we’re doing right now. It’s different. The camera is on. Yes. But like, you know, we all kind of forget. Yeah. And then you still get the conversation out of it. And even from that part, send that to an editor. They can create a lot of cool, interesting snippets out of that. And then your authenticity is there.
AJV (37:59):
Oh, that’s so good for any of you who are listening. I just wanna make sure you hear that. It’s like, if you don’t have confidence or you feel insecure on camera, it’s like, just do it interview style, right? Have someone interview you, film it, send it to an editor and they’ll be able to take out the best parts of you talking. Right. That’s a really great tip because it’s like content comes in a variety of mediums. Right? So have someone interview you. That’s a really great format. Cause I feel the same way with a lot of people who have major fears around public speaking, but they don’t mind doing a panel. They don’t mind doing an interview. It’s just the concept of me standing on stage by myself, trying to tell all these people, something there doesn’t come across, but you sit ’em down on a couch with an interviewer and it’s like brilliance, just coming out of their mouth. Yeah. Somehow as this keynote speaker, doesn’t come out that way. So do an interview style. I love that. Yeah. That’s a great, tangible takeaway for anyone who doesn’t feel confident on camera to still create content and get your message out there. So, so love that.
TB (39:14):
Yeah. So one thing that I think this is gonna sound a little more bit, but it’s something for me that’s worked when communicating to my clients and wanting to create like the best pieces. You ask yourself this question. If you were to die in 30 days, what’s the one thing, the most important thing you want the world to know, like what what’s, if you knew you were gonna die in 30 days, what’s the most important thing you would want the world to know. Right? If you, if you think about that for a second and you give that message, when you’re coming from a place of, you know, what of, of your own mortality, it usually comes across as visceral as possible because you’re thinking to yourself, you know, this is the most important message to me. Mm-Hmm
TB (40:18):
Okay. Now that I’ve created that if I were to die, what’s the next most important video or what’s the most next important message that I would want to get across the world. And so what happens is this forces you to dig deep inside of yourself because it’s not about performing, right? It’s about talking to that one person. Like, because I know we’re talking to the world, but it’s really about talking to one person, right. When you’re talking to the camera, you’re not talking to the camera. You’re not even talking to yourself, you’re talking to one person, right? Who’s that one person, your client avatar or the individual that, you know, who’s, you know, if it’s, if it’s his story about something that you were going through, who’s that person that you wanna speak to imagine they need your help right now. Mm-Hmm
TB (41:10):
You’re gonna show up, oh, this person needs my help. I’m gonna show up. You know, that’s going to give you the energy and the empowerment to kind of like show up. And so that’s how I show up when I am making my videos or when I’m talking to clients, making them videos. Who’s that one person that you wanna show up for, let’s say they needed you right now. You’re gonna die in 30 days. Mm-Hmm
AJV (41:53):
Yeah.
TB (41:54):
And when you make it relatable and you connect, it becomes shareable.
AJV (41:58):
Mm-Hmm
TB (42:09):
Well, once I go through the process with them, yeah, not initially.
AJV (43:30):
That’s so good. I love that. And I know we’re coming up on time here. So I have just like one last question for each of you. So I’ll start, I’ll start with Tony. So here’s here’s my, here’s my last question for you. It’s like, if you had one creative piece of advice, right. For anyone out there who’s listening, it’s like, Hey, if you can just do this one thing, it’s going to help you get your message across on video, what would it be?
TV (44:02):
Oh, to get your message across on video? Well, I, I think people, well, I do think like a lot of people stress too much about it. Like, like, like you, like, you’re, like you said, like it’s, oh, I, I, I need to record something today because everybody tells me I need to be consistent. I need to post every single day on Instagram, on Instagram stories, YouTube, everywhere.
TV (44:52):
Don’t don’t please don’t think like that. I would for sure. Say like, you know, take your time one day, create a couple of videos, focus on one platform, just be a bit active on there. When it comes to, to quality focus, the quality on what you’re saying, that’s the most important and what you’re saying, not how it looks like. Not on a crazy edit. Just what are you saying? Start with there, start with there. And then, then you’re gonna create momentum in yourself, in your audience. And then from there, just take the next step. Like what could the next step be? Could it be a better edit? Could it be more clarity in what I’m saying? Better camera gear. Should I move to another platform? Those things, but calm down.
AJV (45:35):
I would
TV (45:36):
Say
AJV (45:36):
TV (45:57):
Yeah.
AJV (45:57):
Saying like, who is saying this? And like, why are they saying this? It’s like, you know, we get pressure. I get pressure. I shouldn’t say we, I get pressure. I, them, you need to be on TikTok. I’m like Noah don’t they’re like, oh yeah, you do. Yeah, exactly. Noah don’t. Yeah. I don’t wanna be on TikTok so I should not be on it.
TV (46:12):
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And it was funny cuz I was speaking to Travis actually last week and cuz I, I was also like, everybody kind of looks up to like these prince CAS and, and these J she and like they, they, they want to be consistent everywhere, but like, and or Gary VFR who is definitely consistent everywhere, but people really on the resume, like say prince say, Hey, he doesn’t drop a single, a video. Every single day of that quality. He drops once a month. Maybe sometimes once every two months. Mm-Hmm
AJV (46:51):
He literally had, but someone following him around with the video. Yeah. So until you got those resources, it’s like, yeah, like
TV (46:59):
Calm down, calm down,
AJV (47:00):
Calm down. It’s OK. That like the advice of the day, calm down. Good one Tommy. It’s so true. It’s like, you know, it’s like our, like even people in like our client community at brand builder’s group, it’s they stress themselves out of going, well, I have to do this and I have to do this. And I’m like, no, you don’t. Yeah, you don’t, you can, but you don’t have to. It’s like, you can actually be really successful and not even be on social media, spoiler alert. Right. It’s like, yeah, it’s not a dependent factor, but it definitely is a huge conduit of getting your message out there. Yes. Faster. Right. Okay. So Travis, here’s my last question for you. And it has to do with social media since inter like media is got this, it’s an amazing company doing really cool things. You had me at your hook making videos go viral. I was like, how do I learn more? Right. So I’m curious to hear your perspective of like, in order to really make social media work, what’s the first thing you need to do.
TB (48:11):
So interesting. I’ll tell this really quick story. So I had a company I work with for, for 90 days power for you out of salt lake city, Utah. And so first thing I did was identify what type of company is this? It’s a personal development company. I said, okay it’s a personal development company. So now I go to market research.com and say, all right, who’s into personal development, the most millennials. Okay. Millennials into personal developed the most. Okay. Where are these people located at California and New York, you know, places like that. Okay, great. Which platform are they on? Which social media platform are they on? Okay. So I see that they’re on Facebook mainly. Now this was a couple years ago, but, and so now it’s like Instagram and YouTube, but back then it was Facebook and YouTube.
TB (49:07):
Okay, cool. All right. Now I see who’s the top performing personal development coaches and, and influences on these platforms. So I check and see who’s the top performing influences on those platforms. Then I see the most viral videos that they are putting out. And then after I see which the most viral videos that they’re putting out, then I see the most common questions that people are asking in a comment section mm-hmm
AJV (50:25):
Yeah. I mean, I think it’s like how I translate that in my mind. It’s like, you gotta get so in tune with who your audience is, that everything else is second to that, right? Yeah. It’s like, where are they? What are they asking? What do they need? What do they want? And how can we give it to ’em in the way that they want it.
TB (50:43):
And, and also do want to, at this one last point, something Tony said, and I don’t want, wanted to gloss over choosing one platform, probably one of the biggest things that I run into, you know, entrepreneurs is they wanna be on every platform.
AJV (52:07):
Yeah.
TB (52:07):
And it’s much easier to learn how to build on one platform than it is on V. Yeah.
AJV (52:12):
So at least gives you more focus and tension and takes away the pressure of, and this and this and this and this. Exactly. which really quite honestly is probably what halts most people is. I feel like I just can’t keep up. I just can’t, I can’t do this so they don’t do anything. Yeah. So, so, so good. Anna lied. I’m gonna ask one last question to each of you. What’s your favorite, what’s your preferred platform, Tony? Like what’s your go-to platform? Just for curiosity sake.
TV (52:41):
AJV (52:42):
For me. Youtube. All right, Travis.
TB (52:45):
Yeah. YouTube is the platform for longevity. It’s the second big, biggest search engine. It’s evergreen. And honestly, anybody that wants a sustainable platform to build on YouTube is definitely number one. It’s not the quickest.
AJV (53:01):
Yeah, that’s so
TB (53:01):
Good. Y’all definitely the one that lasts the longest.
AJV (53:04):
Ugh. Y’all just so many awesome nuggets of information. So grateful for both of you guys coming on, everyone who is listening. I am telling you go check out interlight media. It’s I N N ER, not inter inner. You have to listen to my Southern accent and translate inner like you’re intervening you’re media, interlight media.com. Also you’ve got interlight social. Are those, do those go to the same place or is one better than the other?
TB (53:33):
So interlight media is the name of the company. Interlight social is the name of the website.
AJV (53:37):
See, that’s so glad I asked interlight social.com. I will make it correct in the show notes, ignore everything. I just said, enter like social.com is where you wanna go. We’ll make sure to have all the links in the show notes and y’all, if they wanna follow you on social media, where should they go? Travis,
TB (53:56):
Instagram and YouTube, just Travis believes. And if you Google, Travis believes you’ll find me everywhere. You’ll follow me on any platform. But Instagram and YouTube is where you’ll find me most active.
AJV (54:08):
Travis believes on Instagram and YouTube. And how about you? Tony
TV (54:12):
Instagram really plays that’s Instagram. That’s tone to Tony cuz my, my real, my Dutch name is tone. T E U N. It’s gonna be hard to pronounce for an English audience. So that’s why Tony
AJV (54:27):
Make it clear. I’ll put it in the show note. Yeah. Y’all thank you so much. Thanks for sharing your wisdom and all of your insights. We so appreciate it. Everyone else, make sure you catch the recap episode and we’ll catch you next time on the influential personal brand. See y’all.
Ep 311: The Fastest Way to Become a Paid Professional Speaker with Kindra Hall | Recap Episode
RV (00:07):
Hey brand builder, Rory Vaden here. Thank you so much for taking the time to check out this interview as always, it’s our honor to provide it to you for free and wanted to let you know there’s no big sales pitch or anything coming at the end. However, if you are someone who is looking to build and monetize your personal brand, we would love to talk to you and get to know you a little bit and hear about some of your dreams and visions and share with you a little bit about what we’re up to to see if we might be a fit. So if you’re interested in a free strategy call with someone from our team, we would love to hear from you. You can do that at brand builders, group.com/pod call brand builders, group.com/pod call. We hope to talk to you soon.
RV (00:54):
What is the fastest way to become a paid professional speaker? That was a big part of the topic of conversation. Of course, in this recent interview that I did with Kindra hall, who is a friend, a colleague, someone who I have now known for years, and it’s been delightful to see how her speaking career has taken shape. I met her when she first started out and I just love, I love seeing people who are winning and who set that, set a goal and create a vision and go out and knock it down. And so it’s great to reconnect with her and and bring some of this. Some of these highlights in education to you and not everybody wants to be a paid professional speaker. Now, if you are in, if you are one of our brand builders group messengers, if you’re in one or one of our clients, you know that we talk about presentations a lot, because we believe that presentations are both your best first product and your best first piece of marketing collateral.
RV (01:57):
We use presentations and speaking as the number one way to drive leads into your business. Now that doesn’t mean you have to be paid to speak. And it also doesn’t mean even that you have to do it on stages or even in person. A lot of times it happened through webinars and podcasts and social media lives and, you know, just little YouTube videos and things like that. But we believe in speaking, but this episode specific to the business of paid professional speaking and that is really a, a very specific thing. And so in our world, one of our, one of our courses is called full keynote calendar, which is where we teach the entire business. It’s the, the whole two day event. Or if you do it as a course, you know, or you do it at a private strategy session with us is completely dedicated specifically to the business of paid speaking, which is what the topic of this conversation was with Kindra.
RV (02:55):
So I wanna share with you a couple of my highlights and takeaways from Kindra and also share, you know, just add in some of our other tips that, that we know of from the, from just from spending a career doing this. So, first of all, one of the things that she said, which is incredible advice, it is completely true. I totally agree. And if you hang out around like the national speakers association or other kind of paid professional speakers a lot or aspiring speakers, you will hear this. This is, this is sort of age old wisdom. And in the, when it comes to the business of speaking, there may not be a better piece of tactical advice than this, which is speak at associations. That is where you start, you start your speaking, your paid professional speaking career, and, and unpaid, you can also do this for, for free speaking engagements for lead gen, right?
RV (03:50):
But you start by speaking at paid, sorry, not that start by speaking at associations. If you are wanting to build a career as a paid professional speaker, why? Okay. Because a few reasons. So first of all, think about it. Associations bring people together who all work for different companies. So associations exist entirely for the purpose of having meetings. That is, that is why they exist. It is, it is for the purpose of best practices and, and networking and creating community among a profession. So associations exist like solely to have meetings, to create encounters with people who are from different companies, but are inside of the same industry. That is why they exist. Now, anytime you have meetings, you need speakers. So that’s the second reason why is in order to incentivize these people to come together collectively, one of the best ways to do that is to provide education.
RV (05:00):
That is a VI that will, will benefit all of them, which means they need speakers. They need educators. They need people who can add content to their program, to their lineup, to create and enhance the value of that meeting, which is inherent and, and necessary and essential in getting people to even show up for the meeting in the first place. So they are desperate for speakers. They’re dependent on speakers. That’s very different from a company, right? Like a company, people are all there gathered every day in the same place. Anyways, they may or may not have a meeting. And if they’re having a rough year financially, one of the first things they probably cut is a meeting, but associations can’t cut the meeting like that is the association is getting people together and they gotta have speakers. So that’s the second reason why they are great.
RV (05:46):
The third reason why associations are great and why you should target speaking at associations first is because they typically don’t have a lot of money.
RV (06:47):
So, so they, they run on a tighter budget, which means that it’s less competitive. Why? Because the higher paid speakers who are typically more established who are world renowned, who are the whatever bestselling authors, the, the, the, the, the people with lots of notoriety or followers or high profile executives, et cetera, they’re competing for higher paying gigs here at associations. Like a lot of times, you know, like these days, honestly, for me, I don’t speak at that many associations. Why, because my fee is outside the range of what most associations can pay. And I am getting as many speaking gigs as I desire to have. So you know, that’s an example. You’re not gonna compete against experienced speakers as much in the association market. So it’s a great place to get started. If you’re trying to speak at, you know, apple or Oracle or, or, you know, the million million dollar round table.
RV (07:45):
Now that’s a, that’s technically an association. That’s a huge one. It’s one of the most illustrious and famous in the world. That happens to be one I am speaking at, in a couple weeks, as a matter of fact in Australia. So there are, there are really, really huge ones that are very, very competitive, but, but the higher end ones have more competition. So when you’re just getting started, it’s good to go in places where you can get momentum and win. So that’s the third great reason to speak at associations. The fourth, great reason to speak at associations is because you are in front of a lot of potential prospects. You’re in front of a lot of potential prospects. I never get more spinoff opportunities than when I speak in front of an association. Why? Because every person in the audience is from a different company.
RV (08:35):
They’re from a different, you know, location, they’re from a different organization, which means all of them are potential people who could hire you compared to when you speak at a company, right? All of those employees work for the same company. So it’s less likely that somebody there is gonna say, Hey, come let me hire you to speak for this other company, because they all work at the same company. Now we’ll talk about that in a second and how to, how to make that work for you really well. But those are four great reasons to speak at associations. And then the fifth reason to speak at associations is because they are easy to find because they’re easy to find. You can just go search association in any industry. And it, it, they’re not that hard to find now narrowing them down and figuring out which ones are, are, are the, you know, the best ones that takes some time.
RV (09:29):
In fact, one of the benefits that we provide to our members and our monthly community at all levels, it’s just inside of our portal. We have a proprietary software that scrapes the web. It’s a, it’s a search tool that scrapes like 60 different search engines. And it’s, it’s set up to have all of these advanced ion logic searches to help you find associations. So if you’re one of our clients make sure you go and, and use that tool in the portal, because it does a lot of that legwork for you, like in a, in a, literally in a split second, but in general, associations are easy, easy to find. All you have to do is ask people, you know, are you a part of any associations and people who are professionals will say, yeah, I mean, this association, that association, you can Google it.
RV (10:12):
There’s directories of them. Like they’re, they’re, they’re trying to be found. So they’re easier to be found. Whereas some companies don’t try to you know, make that much of a public, a public play in terms of who they are. So those are great reasons why to speak at associations five great ones. Okay. So that is where you wanna start. It is the fastest way to get traction. Now you might have to speak for free early on and in general, that’s something we believe in when you’re starting out is you speak for free until you can get until you generate enough demand in the marketplace to speak for a fee. But often you don’t have to cuz the other thing is, even though associations don’t have a lot of money, they have a budget for speakers because they’re essential to the organization.
RV (10:59):
So many of them do have money and they’re willing to, to, you know, spend it with you cuz this is why it exists. So they’re just really, really the great place to start for all of those reasons. And you know, I think that’s what you wanna look at. So it’s interesting to hear Kindra talk about that. Something that we have done, we do, we teach you know, our paying clients and then obviously talking about here, like just for free, it’s a great idea to, to do that. Alright. The second tip, the second takeaway. This was less of something that Kindra said and more of something that something she said reminded me of this is that you wanna learn to work in both horizontals and verticals. You need to learn to work in both horizontals and verticals. And this applies to any profession.
RV (11:49):
Okay. Any, any, any, I would say B to B business to business, any B to B type of environment. You need to learn to work horizontals and verticals. What are horizontals and verticals? Okay. Horizontals applies to the divisions inside of one company and verticals applies to the other companies that are in the same industry. So let me give you an example. Horizontals is if, if I get booked to speak at a huge organization like I’ll give you a good example. Mass mutual was one of, one of our, one of our best speaking clients of all time. I got booked to speak at this mass mutual organization for a gentleman named Michael book, who I became friends with and was someone we profiled in procrastinating on purpose, my second book. And so we spoke for his team inside of mass mutual, but that was just one team inside of mass mutual.
RV (12:49):
So then what we did and, and when I say we, this was really like AJ and, and, and her team. This is part, part of the brilliance of what makes AJ an amazing salesperson is this kind of thing is she then went horizontal and said, what are all the other divisions that mass mutual has? And big companies have many divisions, right? Like they might have, there’s an HR, there’s an HR annual conference. There’s a customer service, there’s a sales conference, there’s a leadership, you know, executive meeting. There might be incentive trips, like big companies have not just one meeting a year. They have lots and lots of meetings across lots of departments or divisions. That’s working horizontally. It’s, it’s going okay. I spoke at this one event for this organization. Let me, let me work laterally in what other departments or divisions does this company have meetings.
RV (13:40):
And rather than, you know, you, you, you do internet research to start all of this, but once you get a little bit of momentum, even, even like two or three customers, you can immediately start doing this and you’ll get way more traction faster because they’re all gonna know each other. And they’re gonna say, oh, Rory did a great job for our HR conference. You guys should look at ’em for your customer service meeting. Boom. Now, now I’m in, right. They, they, even if they don’t know each other inside of a large company, it’s so much credibility to, to be in that organization. Like I, I spoke for Google here, not that long ago. And we’re not proactively hunting keynotes right now. We’re just working inbound. But if we got back into that mode, Google would be one of the, a great example where we would go, oh my gosh, they, they got 25 different divisions probably that have meetings every year.
RV (14:28):
And you could make a, a year or maybe a career just speak into that one company. I had a good friend named Paul early in in my career. This guy spoke at, at just Aflac meetings. Like he, he did so many, he was a mentor and a friend and loved, loved this guy, but he made a great living and he just like dominated Aflac. And he spoke for all these different Aflac. He did other stuff too, but it was like, that was sort of his bread and butter and, and they all knew him. They all got to know him. That’s working horizontally now working vertically. He is working inside of an industry. So that would be like, okay, let’s say I spoke at mass mutual. Then I would say, okay, that’s a financial institution. Then I would say, what other financial institutions could I speak at?
RV (15:11):
Right. Northwestern mutual. You know, I could go to speak to all, all the different insurance companies, because I’m gonna get to know that industry very well. And even though they don’t know the other people at other companies often they do though, because they meet ’em at associations. But even if, if they don’t, they’ll recognize the companies and go, oh yeah, those are reputable companies. They have a lot of the same issues that we have that must mean, you know, something about this industry. And so you get momentum by working horizontally inside of an organization or working verticals inside of an industry. So those are some really tactical, strategic, like important and you know, valuable tips that that will make an immediate difference in terms of your ability to get your speaking career off the ground. Right? So I want you to pay attention to those.
RV (16:03):
And then the third tip, and this definitely was a takeaway from Kindra which, which is more related to her most recent book, which is, you know, she’s sort of an expert on storytelling. And so she teaches how to tell stories and use stories for different things. But what I loved about her second book is it talks about the stories we tell ourselves about ourselves and this applies to everybody, but it certainly applies if you’re trying to become a paid professional speaker is you have to ask yourself, what is the story? I’m telling myself about myself. If I’m saying, oh no, one’s ever gonna hire me. I don’t have enough credentials. I don’t have enough experience. I’m not famous enough. You know, I’m not funny. I’m not good. You know, I’m not, I don’t have charisma or like, whatever those stories are. And I loved, I loved kind of the, the method she laid out as this little three step method.
RV (17:01):
And she said, first of all, just ask yourself, is that story serving you? Like, does, does that story serve you to tell yourself that if it doesn’t serve, you drop it, stop saying it, stop propagating. It, just drop it, right? Like you don’t have to like try to lie to yourself. You just drop it and go that story’s not serving me. I’m just gonna let it go. And then step two, your job is to choose better stories. So you tell yourself you know, look, you could say no one will hire me because I’m inexperienced. You also could easily tell yourself an authentic truth, which is the inverse of that to say people are gonna hire me because I’m a fresh face, which is leg legitimately true. Like many of our longest standing speaking clients are always bringing things to me and they’re going like, Hey, do you have any fresh faces?
RV (17:52):
Like, because you know, some of us speakers been around for a while. And so they, they get to kind of, you know, people have seen ’em and they’re like, we’re looking for some fresh faces or media will say, we’re looking for some fresh faces. You know, success magazine asked me that. And I remember candy. Valentino was one of our brand builders group clients that I introduced her to them and they love her. Right. And that she was just in their magazine and like she’s doing other stuff with them and they, they, they nominated her for this award and just like really awesome. Because they’re looking for fresh faces and you know, that’s one part about being great inside of brand builders is we see a lot of the fresh faces we’re trying to, we’re trying to help. ’em Right. We’re trying to make, ’em become the household name.
RV (18:28):
So your job is to choose better stories. And then you need to, you need to reinstall and repeat the new story, right? So drop the old story, choose a new story and then reinforce or repeat that new story over and over and over. And you say, you know what, I’m a deal, right? That was something that I used to tell, tell people, and, and it is like, Hey, it’s a deal. I still feel that way about myself. I’m going, Hey, in a few years, my speaking fee is going to be outrageous. Like this is the best time ever to hire Rory Vaden. Because my fee is only going up, like I’m on sale. Like I, this is the best time. And that is true. Like if you’re listening to this podcast, if you’re one of our members, if you’re doing the things we’re teaching you, your fee is going up for certain, like, there is no question about whether or not the stuff we teach works.
RV (19:21):
It a hundred percent works if you follow it, it is G like it it’s guaranteed to work. The question is how fast and just, you know, when and how fast, but you you’re on sale, right? Like I’m on sale. I am, I am, I am the cheapest. It is the cheapest to work with me right now, either to hire me as a speaker or to hire me as a personal strategist. Neither of those things I would say are cheap. Right? they’re definitely lots, lots more than they used to cost when I first started, but I’m still on sale. Like it will never be more affordable to work with me than it is right now. And to work with our company, right. We do price increases over time cuz we get better at what we do. There’s more demand. And, and the price goes up, but so you need to remind yourself of that too.
RV (20:04):
Like just inflation alone, the price is going up. So it’s the best time ever to hire you. You are on sale right now. So those are a couple ideas to help you. Those of you that are interested in a paid professional speaking career, but they also apply, even if you’re not interested in professional speaking, but just going out and speaking to drive more leads to your business and to your personal brand, which is a huge part of what our audience does. And it’ll change your business, getting out there and being in front of people and speaking and just giving them a sample of what you do, it’ll change your business. So that’s what I got for you today. Thanks for being here on the influential, personal brand recap, share this episode. Would you please like who do you know that you, you think, Hey, they should be a speaker or they wanna wanna be a speaker, share this episode with them and be like, Hey, you, you need to tune into this cuz I think it’ll help ’em so as always, we love you. We’ll catch you next time on the influential personal brand podcast.