Author: AJ Vaden

Ep 593: From the Brink of Divorce to Empowering Millions: How Casey and Meygan Caston Built Marriage365

AJ: [00:00:00] Hey y’all. Welcome to the influential personal brand, AJ Vaden here. Uh, we got a special episode today that is personal in nature, and we love doing episodes like this every so often because in the world of talking about personal branding and tips and technologies and strategies, sometimes we just need to take a step back and also look at the other parts of our life that are really.

Foundational and fundamental. And today we’re gonna be talking about one of those parts on the topic of marriage because as an entrepreneur who is married to an entrepreneur who is in business together, uh, this is a never ending topic at our house. And, uh, what I have learned over the last. Few months, as I’ve been talking to a lot of brand builders, group members and podcast listeners is there’s a lot of you out there who are on the precipice of going into business with your spouse.

And so I thought this would be an amazing episode, uh, to [00:01:00] not only hear from two people who are married. And working on their brand together, uh, but two people who actually speak about marriage. So that’s what we’re gonna be talking about today. And so we are joined by Casey and Megan Caston. These are the passionate co-founders of Marriage 365, which I have got to learn.

So much about over the last several months, and I love, they also have a new booklet just came out. Uh, you guys are gonna learn all about that. They have an amazing app. We’ll talk more about that later as well. Um, but they have an amazing, uh, and powerful testament to resilience and love as they’ve transformed their own struggles from the brink of divorce into a thriving resource for couples.

Everywhere. And, uh, that includes, uh, not just people who are married in a business together, but it’s all types of couples from all different types of walks of life. Uh, they’ve been married, uh, I believe now for almost or over 22 years if [00:02:00] my, uh, memory is correct. Uh, but they also have over a decade of experience helping couples reconnect.

And so today we’re gonna talk about something that might be controversial in nature, which is. Couples don’t need more therapy, they need more tools. So Casey, Megan, welcome to the show.

Casey: Thank you so much aj. Excited to be here. Yes. It’s weird that marriage is our business and our business is marriage. Yeah.

So it is a nonstop conversation around our world to like, how do we manage the business and our marriage at the same time? When that’s our business.

Meygan: Oh yeah. We, we’ll get in like to an argument and then immediately after I’m like, Ooh, that would be a really good podcast episode. It’s like, okay babe, chill out.

Let’s just like calm down from the argument. But it’s funny because every time we have an interaction, we learn, we fight, we argue like every other couple, um, you know, we’re like, how can we help other people that are in the same situation as we are? [00:03:00] That’s what we do.

AJ: I love that. Uh, and you know, uh, what a great way to make every argument a successful piece of your content,

Meygan: make every argument count.

AJ: That’s right. That’s right. Um, I love that. And, uh, what I would love to do, um, is kind of, you know, start with some of the, the meat and tools, and then I’ll probably backtrack a little bit and talk about how you guys got here. But since I’ve led with that provocative statement of, you know, couples don’t need more therapy.

They need more tools. I would actually love to start there because I think that we, even before I hit record, we were having this conversation, I’ve, how the default is with any relationship, any marriage that’s struggling, it’s like, oh, we need, we need to go to therapy. Mm-hmm. And you guys are going, no, couples don’t need more of that.

They need better tools. They need more tools. Yeah. So can you just kind of like, well, one, how did you come to this? You know, you know, recollection of like, no, it’s not that, it’s this. And then what? [00:04:00] What are the tools that we need as married couples?

Casey: Yeah, so I think when we walked into marriage, like all of our friends, we just kind of felt like love is all you need and we’re just gonna wing it.

And I think there’s so many people that feel like that when it comes to their love life. They just kind of go off on the whims of whatever they feel in the moment. And I think that that is very damaging to long-term relationships because Megan and I got married and then I thought love would carry us through the day.

But what happens when I don’t feel love? Then I, then I thought there was something actually wrong with us, and that’s what took us down by year three, we, we grew to actually hate each other because we, we had all these expectations over how you were supposed to treat me and you were supposed to be there for me.

Then you let me down. And all that missed expectations just led to anger and resentment and it was very explosive for us. We’re very, we’re both fighters competitive and we’re probably more different than [00:05:00] we are alike.

Meygan: Yeah, on top of being very stubborn people. Stubborn, so then very stubborn. Then you kind of start to think, you know, did I marry the wrong person?

And I think all these couples go through those questions. Did I make the biggest mistake? Did I marry the wrong person? Oh my gosh, we’re falling out of love. And this whole idea of therapy, I mean, therapy’s only been around for what, a little less than a hundred years. So what did all the millions and millions of couples do from the beginning of time?
It’s the longest institution we have on the planet. What did they do? They couldn’t go to therapy. And what do you do if you can’t afford therapy? What do you do if you have a spouse who’s unwilling to go to therapy? Which by the way is the majority of couples. These are so many good questions. Yes. What do you do if you don’t have a great therapist in your area?

I mean, I know we’re both fortunate to live more in areas where there’s a lot of. Resources and therapy. There’s a lot of people in small towns that they don’t have. If you go to the one marriage and family therapist, everyone in your town’s gonna know about it, and everyone’s gonna talk about it and go, Ooh, what’s wrong with them?

Casey: Right. And so that [00:06:00] just can leave a fe a a couple feeling very stuck. Mm-hmm. And from a biblical worldview, you know, we, we see that there’s biblical principles, uh, that make things work. They’re found in the Book of Proverbs, we always consider the book of Proverbs to be actually be the book of marriage.

Mm. Because. And, and, and when you think about Proverbs and even like New Testament James, like very practical, very tactical. And when you think about a marriage relationship, you can’t give a platitude to get somebody out of anger and resentment. You have to give them tools to be able to navigate conflict, talk about uncomfortable topics and, and to, to even plan for the future.

So I think there was a big aha. Especially as like, we’re trying to, we’re like building our business. And when we think about walking into this area and domain of our life, you know, we’re very practical. We’re tactical, we’re looking at goals, we’re looking at frameworks. How do I build [00:07:00] and scale a business?

And when I talk to entrepreneurs, which, which most of our listeners, right, they’re all, we’re all trying to build a brand. We’re building a business. We’re listening to podcasts, we’re receiving content and information, and how do I structure my business? What are my operating system for my business?

Mm-hmm.

Casey: And so working with entrepreneurs, they totally understand that I. But then when they walk through the front door of their home, it’s just the wild, wild west. Yeah. It’s chaos. You’re reactive. Mm-hmm. And it’s like I walk, you know, when I walk into the office, I’m like thinking Stephen Covey’s seven habits of highly effective people.

Be proactive. First things first. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then when I walk in the home, it’s like, be reactive. The priorities are all out of whack. Like, I’m not, you know, trying to learn and grow. And that becomes the place where a lot of couples find themselves struggling because they haven’t been intentional [00:08:00] and they haven’t been curious with that.

I have

AJ: a question. Yeah. ’cause I think that is, uh, spot on what you just said. ’cause it’s, I live in a very entrepreneurial, you know, connected community, uh, here in Nashville. And what you just said is true. I’ve almost. Everyone that I know, it’s like, you know, it’s like they run a tight ship at work and when they get home it’s complete chaos.

Yeah, yeah. And we were really fortunate to get some amazing life advice early in our marriage. ’cause we were, I don’t know if you guys know this, we were business partners, Rory and I, before we fell in love and got married.

Meygan: Oh, I did not know that. So we started

AJ: in business. Wow. Before we fell in love and got married and.

Somebody just told us very early on, maybe even before we were formally married, but they just said, Hey, let me give you a tip that’s gonna help you in every aspect of this partnership [00:09:00] together. And they said. Run your house, like you run your business. Oh, I see. That’s great

Meygan: advice. Yep. Great advice.

Whoever that was. Thank you.

AJ: And so and so we did. Yeah. Um, like from the moment that we got married, we’ve always had, like, this is our household calendar, this is our business calendar. We have a household, uh, manual of like how the house works, what does, like, we’ve literally treated it like that. That was not of our own volition, right?

There was somebody who came in and said like, this is the best advice I can give you in this season of life you’re in. And it’s treat your house like you treat your business. But most didn’t get that advice or they haven’t heated that advice. And since you guys have worked with so many couples like this, I would just love to know like.

Why is that? Like why are we so wired to do it in one aspect of our life and completely negate or ignore it in another?

Meygan: Yeah, I think honestly, it’s a cultural thing. I think that we invest so much into our children’s education, which is great, and then we go to college and we get really passionate about [00:10:00] our career and that pathway.

Right, right. And there’s nothing wrong with that. We’re all for that. We, I believe, and Casey believes this too, and we are seeing this now, and I think especially after Covid, our relational IQ is depleted. It’s not there. It’s non-existent or it’s very weak. Where we are really good in our career. Or our hobby, but we are not great at relationships, emotions, feelings, communication within relationships that matter.

And so Well,

Casey: people wanna go where they’re winning too.

Meygan: Yeah. And you wanna go where you’re winning. So if you’re winning at work, you’re not winning at home, you’re gonna escape to work. And not only that, but you get a paycheck and you get attaboys at work. Right. Where at home it’s. You might be getting nitpicked or

Casey: you just get dirty diapers

Meygan: Yeah.

To do that. Right. Um, your kids don’t thank you until they’re older. That, and so it’s kind of thing good. Yeah. And so I think that what we’re seeing is this cultural shift and it’s very slow, which is good. It’s going in the right direction where people are realizing it’s not working [00:11:00] what we’re doing.

Mm-hmm.

Meygan: We’re neglecting the most important thing, which is connecting with others. Right. Our, our work is meaningful because we believe in it, but that. Can can shift any day, right? Like you could lose your job tomorrow. You could get in a car accident and be parallel. I mean, we just don’t know what tomorrow holds.

But if we’re connected to our spouse at home and that’s like the mothership and our family’s running well then, then we’re good to go. So I think, again, going back to your example, see you guys didn’t need therapy. You got a tool. And you utilized. There you go. The tool. And it worked for you. And that’s what’s amazing.

And listen, we’re not here to, to harp on therapy because part of our story is I went to therapy by myself because he wouldn’t go. Mm-hmm. We’re very pro, by the way, individual therapy. Yeah. But again, not everybody can afford it. Not everyone’s gonna go.

AJ: Yeah. It’s expensive. Hard to find good people, hard to afford it.

Not covered by insurance out, I mean, yeah. Yes.

Meygan: You know what, AJ too. It’s a very slow process. You know, a once a week, [00:12:00] one hour session is not enough for most people by the time they go to therapy. I think that’s the other thing, like the the way it is is, is

Casey: it’s hard now, and mind you aj, we’re, we got a unique perspective because we probably get.

Two to 300 dms a day just on Instagram. And the story is the same. We’ve spent thousands of dollars and months and years in therapy. Yeah. And all we do is just talk about our problems, but we don’t have a tool. Solution. Yeah. Or a solution. And that to me, right there is where again, like. Uh, marriage is so tactical in life.

Like the way you run your marriage is the way you run, actually a lot of things in your life. Yeah. Um, and that’s why what actually one of the tools that we talk about is the weekly marriage business meeting, which you kind of actually do with Rory, which is once a week Megan and I walk through our calendars.

Yeah. We look through meal plans. We have a, a whole list. We’ll, we’ll send that to you so you can share that with your, your audience, but

love that.

Casey: Um, it is a [00:13:00] weekly meeting and it sets, it sets intention. Yeah. The right expectation and we find alignment for the week ahead where we’re actually calendaring time for us too.

Mm-hmm. Or alone time. Like I need some self-care time. I need to work out. Right. I got, I gotta put that in the calendar, but I walk through the week now being very proactive and when I do have those evenings with Megan, instead of talking about the schedules. We actually get to connect

Meygan: and have fun together.

’cause we

Casey: already talked about all the transactional stuff. Yep. We’ve talked about the logistics of life

Meygan: and we say it cuts conflict, 50%. Oh, easy for every couple. Easy. And, and honestly, aj, we fight if we don’t do our weekly marriage business meeting, because then that word means we’re not aligned. And wait, you said you’d be home at six?

Well, no, I said seven 30. Well, we didn’t talk about it, so that’s why we are. Adamant every Sunday night after the kids go to bed, well, now they’re teenagers even when the kids are up. Um, when they were little, it was after they went to bed. We, we talk about it and there’s something that’s a little [00:14:00] controversial on that worksheet, but we schedule sex.

We’re adamant boo the kids for scheduling sex. And we always tell people this, if you are having spontaneous sex and both you and your spouse are satisfied with the quality and the quantity. Then you don’t need to schedule sex, but if one of you is wanting it more or you feel like it’s not happening ’cause you’re so busy, which.

People probably look at us and think, well, you work together and you’re talking about marriage. You have all the time in the world to have sex. Even we struggle to find time. Like we’re busy. Yeah. I worked like a 12 hour day yesterday. We didn’t have sex, so that’s why we schedule it. You know what,

Casey: tomorrow’s though, babe.

Meygan: I know. Hump day. Hump day. Wednesday night. Our kids Wednesday, our kids go to youth group every Wednesday night. Guess who’s having sex? So don’t come and knocking on our door by the Wednesday. So

Casey: we put, we put in the calendar nap time. Nap nap time. It stands for Naughty and Playful.

Meygan: Oh, that’s hilarious.

Yes. The way

Casey: the kids, if they see the calendar, they’re like, oh, it’s just nap time. Okay.

Meygan: We don’t wanna, we don’t wanna put like sexy time and then our teenagers are like, Ew, [00:15:00] gross. I remember though, this is a funny like, side note that our daughter, she um, like did catch our phone when she was eight and she’s like, why are you taking a nap at nine o’clock at night?

AJ: Oh my gosh. So bed. Um, because

Meygan: moms all the

AJ: things when your kids grow up and they’re

Meygan: gonna be like, oh my gosh, I know. Yeah. They’re gonna hear this and

Casey: they’re gonna be like, ah,

Meygan: yes. But yeah, so we even schedule sex. And I think that what’s really cool about it, and obviously you can tell we’re passionate about this, is that we schedule doctor’s appointments, dentist visits, oil changes.

Mm-hmm.

Meygan: Uh, podcasts, like being a guest on a podcast was in our calendar with a reminder because it’s a priority for us, right? Yeah. It’s, our brain is our largest sex organ. Yeah. So if we go into marriage thinking and sex, wow, this is something I get to do. Like I get to put this on my calendar and I get to prioritize it.

And then Casey on Wednesdays is so much more nice and thoughtful and true foreplay all day long. Like, I mean, but it’s

Casey: Tuesday and I’m already thinking about Wednesday.

Meygan: Yeah. And I’m, yeah, and I’m I, and it’s funny ’cause [00:16:00] they, people say, well, gosh, doesn’t it feel so like forced? I’m thinking again though, if your brain is your largest sex organ and you’re going.

Into it feeling that, yes. But after we enjoy sex, we’ve never been like, well, that wasn’t worth it. Of course. We’re like, why don’t we schedule it more? Yep.

AJ: I’ve been reading, um, the book, it’s an oldie but a goodie, um, what to say when you talk to yourself by Shad Helmstetter. And one of the things that I’m constantly reminded of, ’cause it’s all about positive self-talk and all that, our entire company is reading the book, um, as our Q1 book of the quarter.

And it was a great reminder to me. It’s like we can train our brain, right? Yeah. And we can reframe, rewire, uh, we can condition ourselves and our brain is gonna naturally react to whatever we feed it the most. Right, exactly. And a lot of that is routines and habits. And it’s like back to scheduling, right?

It’s like, it, it does become this, uh, muscle [00:17:00] memory of like, oh no, this isn’t just in my schedule. It’s not so, you know. Non-intimate because it’s, oh, it’s in my calendar. It’s like, no. It becomes a part of muscle memory of like your body starts to know like, Hey, every Wednesday, like this is coming. Right?

There’s all those natural things that start to happen, uh, that make it less. I don’t know. Scheduled per se. Yeah. Yes. Uh, but it’s, it’s the, it’s whatever I tell people all the time, it’s like, whatever gets me to do the thing I’m supposed to do is worth me doing the thing to get me to do the thing I’m supposed to do.

There you go.

Meygan: Yes. Right. Whatever. It’s in marriage. We are advocates for having a shared calendar. Yeah. And putting anything you need to mm-hmm. With reminders. Text My Spouse a flirty text. Put it in your phone. Yeah. That’s okay. If it doesn’t come natural to you, then make it, make it habit of it to put it in your phone to remind you.

Casey: Well, and aj, I, I wanna actually want to, uh, kinda riff on that concept of having the right mindset that leads us to successful relationships because, you know, um. [00:18:00] For, for your listeners. We’re all entrepreneurs. We all actually have these two essential mindsets that Megan and I have kind of sussed out that like creates successful marriages.

And the first one is curiosity. So as an entrepreneur, we walk into the marketplace and we go. What is a problem I can solve? What kind of gifts and talents do I bring to the marketplace? And how can I solve a problem such that I can make a profit, earn a living, you know, sustain my family? And there’s a lot of curiosity behind that because you try, a marketing effort doesn’t work.

Meygan: What do you

Casey: do? Let’s get curious. Why didn’t it work? Why didn’t

Meygan: it work? Let’s, let’s, let’s,

Casey: let’s try a different way. That didn’t work. Let’s try a different way.

Meygan: Constant AB testing. Yeah.

Casey: I mean, I think marriage 365, we, we felt called, we knew that God had called us. There was so many different, like, like iterations of the clouds parting and it said something about marriage for us and we were like, well, what do we do?

[00:19:00] What do we do next? We got curious and I think when we come to our relationship. We’re very curious when we first start dating our partner.

Mm-hmm.

Casey: Right across the table. And you’re looking at this person just like enamored and like you’re just like, who is this person? Tell me your hopes and your dreams, your desires, where you wanna go in life.

What’s your childhood like? Tell, tell me everything. ’cause I want to know, and while you’re asking all these great questions. What happens is you’re communicating without communicating it. I desire you.

Mm. I

Casey: I wanna totally pursue you. Totally. I wanna know more about you. And that right there, that fuels attraction.

I. Okay, so what happens is then we get married and then we get stuck in the routines and the wash, rinse, repeat of the weeks go by and we stop getting curious. Yeah, and it’s not

Meygan: intentional. No. We’re not waking up purposefully saying, I don’t wanna know your heart. [00:20:00] We just get busy or distracted, or we turn on the tv rather than turn towards each other and curiosity.

We should never stop being curious about our spouse, their hopes, their dreams, their fears, what’s going on in their world because. We change, we evolve as humans, but also we need to continue to get curious about ourselves. Ooh, gosh, why did I respond that way? Ooh, when my husband said this, I got triggered.

What is going on inside of my heart? Yeah. So curiosity isn’t just about the other person, it’s also about you as a couple and you yourself.

Casey: Yeah, and I, I use, I like to use the image of a lattice in a vine. Okay. If curiosity is the vine that kind of crawls all over and you know, finds these little nooks and crannies

The second, second mindset is intentionality. And intentionality is the lattice that holds the vine together.

Mm-hmm.

Casey: Because again, as entrepreneurs, we realize if we wanna sustain a business, we have to be intentional. Going back to being [00:21:00] proactive, right? Mm-hmm. To weekly marriage, business meeting. Could you imagine Rory?

I’m sorry, aj, uh, if you walked in. To your, to brand builders and you were like, okay guys, this week everybody just do really good work and just, just go out there and do great work. And And you didn’t give them a plan. You didn’t tell goals. Yeah. It just would be chaos. It would be chaos. And that to me is, you know, we walk into building a business very intentional by learning and growing.

Hiring coaches, hiring you guys, right? When we launched our book, we hired you guys because you guys were gonna give us the structure on the plan, how to launch a bestseller. We

Meygan: needed a plan, we needed next steps. We had no idea what we were doing. Right? And you provided that.

Casey: And so aj, like the same thing happens, is like we walk into relationship relationships.

We stop being intentional.

Meygan: Yeah. We were intentional when we were dating. I mean, you [00:22:00] know, if, if. Rory didn’t initiate a date.

Oh yeah.

Meygan: Right. You’d been like, snooze fest. Something’s wrong with this guy. You know? Like he’s not being intentional. Like if he, if you were on a date and he was kinda like, yeah, whatever you wanna do, like whatever.

And he was really passive. You’d be so turned off by it. We’re so intentional when we’re dating and again. We get married. It’s not that we intentionally wake up to not be intentional. It happens. We get busy, we build resentment of the kids, get in the way, whatever the reasons are. But intentionality provides that structure.

Like the weekly marriage business meeting would be a great example.

Casey: Yeah. Otherwise, what happens is we just kind of have a slow drift, and I think that’s probably the most dangerous and maybe most common thing that we see in marriage is. We started off with a goal, with intention, with curiosity. Mm-hmm.

And then just slowly we, we, we get off one or two degrees and the months go by and we don’t really see like the damaging [00:23:00] effects.

Meygan: Yeah.

Casey: But then when you compound that with the months and then the years, and then what we’re seeing now is when, when people start to empty nest, they’re looking at their partner and they’re like, we did all of this life together.

Meygan: Yeah. Have

Casey: roommates.

Meygan: We raised our children well.

Casey: Yep.

Meygan: But I don’t even know you. I don’t know if I even like you anymore. And that’s why the empty nest phase is now the second most common time for couples to divorce. So the number one is year four to 10. So when the kids are little, really high demand.

Yeah, just really difficult. Right. We’ve all been there. And then the second time is, is empty nesting. So that’s telling us something that couples are slowly growing apart.

Casey: So we’re, we’re trying to be out in the society, bang the pan pots and pans going, Hey,

Meygan: hey, hey, don’t do that again. Going back to they don’t need the therapy.

Like I maybe, maybe some people do with some severe trauma and things like that. Please go if you’ve got that. But the majority of couples actually just need really good tools. Hmm.

AJ: Yeah. So I would love to talk about that. Like, and I know that we can’t cover all of it, but if you guys were to say [00:24:00] like, Hey, these are the.

Two to three tools that will revolutionize your marriage. What would those be? Uh,

Casey: well, the, the weekly marriage business meeting. Yeah. That’s about, that’s we, we just, that one. That’s absolutely number one. We get the most feedback from that, that couples say, this changed our marriage. Yeah.

Meygan: The second one would actually be asking open-ended questions.

Oh. Which

Casey: is

Meygan: our book that came out in 2024. Um, there’s basically a question a day and. This is supposed to spark, um, really great conversations about everything. There’s fun questions. There’s deep thought questions. There’s self-awareness questions, questions about money, boundaries. What, what you do? Sex.

Sex, yes. But the goal is that couples, just like when you were dating, you talked about. All these things and found each other interesting that you would continue the conversation. And so, um, it’s interesting actually, ’cause I’m not sure if you know, we actually self-published our book back in 2018. [00:25:00] We’ve always had something called connecting Questions.

That’s what we call ’em, connecting Questions that Marriage 365. And we’re like, what if we put ’em in a book and we made one a day? Perfect. Our brands Marriage 365, like this is a no brainer. Perfect. And I remember telling Casey like, okay, what’s our personal goal? Making goals, right? It’s like, okay, if we sell 5,000 copies in our lifetime, like we did a great job as a self publisher.

Remember, books

Casey: don’t do that.

Meygan: We sold 5,000 copies. In three months.

Yeah.

Meygan: And we were like, okay, we’re onto something. And 5,000 copies turned into 50,000 copies. And then just a little company called Penguin Random House, heard about it, uh, back in 2024, and they said, Hey, we’d love to buy it and update it and revise it.

I love that. It’s been a huge, huge, amazing blessing. But what I love again is it’s a tool. It’s a tool for a husband or wife to just open up. And ask the question of the day. If you don’t like the question, flip to a different question. Yeah. You know that that’s okay. But that I would say [00:26:00] is a non-negotiable if I were to say the weekly marriage business meeting, asking open-ended questions, you know.

AJ when, I love

Casey: that, when hurting, when we were hurting in our marriage. It’s not like I woke up and I was like, I just don’t care about Megan. I really did care about her. I just didn’t know how. Mm. And I, and when I coaching a lot of husbands, the desire is always there. Mm

mm

Casey: I just have to know that like the desire is always there.

It’s just the know-how. And so I, you know, I think a lot of the tools that we, we build and we work through and we teach are tools that we look at. You know, poor Casey, Megan struggling, didn’t have a guy to mentor. You know, we didn’t have a healthy family upbringing. Like my mom’s been married six times.

Um, so, and be, and be fact between both sets of parents, we have 12 marriages. So it’s

Meygan: a, it’s crazy. Wow. We have a model’s a lot to,

Casey: to work off of, and. I wish I could have given this book [00:27:00] to, to that struggling couple because then even in the midst of the hurt, we would’ve had a guide to, to talk and connect.

Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, I mean,

AJ: I’m just curious to hear from you. Um, ’cause I think, you know, if, you know, kind of in this entrepreneur conversation, right? If we run our house, like we run our business, like everyone who’s listening, like, just imagine if you didn’t have team meetings. Yeah, exactly. Like imagine if you didn’t have a list of goals for the year or a budget, or you didn’t talk to your team and you, you didn’t ask questions.

Or what if they didn’t ask questions? Yeah. Like could you imagine how well things would not be going? Yeah. If we did those things as entrepreneurs, as business people. But even if you’re not an entrepreneur of just going like, imagine in your work. If there was never a meeting Yeah. Or a plan or got am I imagine being onboarded, right?

Mm-hmm. When I think about getting married, right? Imagine being onboarded to a new [00:28:00] company with no onboarding. Yeah.

Meygan: It’s like,

AJ: here you go. Yeah. But that’s what we do in marriage.

Meygan: Yes. Right?

AJ: Yes. So many of us, and I love what you said about the book, ’cause I think the book is really important of like just helping people have conversations and I would just, what I want, the question I have for you is.

What do you think gets in the way of couples talking to each other? Hmm. And asking questions and. You know, it’s like, I just think to my, ’cause I even use myself as an example. It’s like I talk all day long, right? Yes. I ask questions. I’ve in meetings all day long and often, like when it is just me and Rory, I’m like, so what do you wanna talk about?

Yeah, yeah. You know? Yeah. Um, now part of that is because I’ve been listening to him talk and he’s been listening to me talk all day. But, uh, even without that. You know, there is saying we work together. Yes, I get it. I mean,

Casey: if we work together all day long, it’s not like at the end of the day, like, tell me about your day.

Yeah. I’m seeing I was sitting next to you all day long. Don’t

AJ: you [00:29:00] know, weren’t you listening? I told you all day. Yes.

Meygan: Yeah. Which is

Casey: funny ’cause I mean, if you find us on a date, we have our book next to us.

Meygan: I mean, that’s what’s, that’s what’s so, so I think what stands in the way is, let’s just talk about some, some really simple, obvious ones.

Busyness. Mm. People are busy. You know, um, if it’s a child-centered marriage where the kids dictate your schedules again, and you’re not doing a weekly marriage business meeting, yeah, you’re probably never going to really have that time to connect because you’re gonna have to talk about the logistics and you’re trying to just go, how was work and what’s for dinner, which are just really boring questions day after day.

Um, I think another thing actually that a big one that we’re seeing is resentment. Years and years of, you haven’t taken me on a date. Um, my wife’s been nagging at me, whatever’s going on. Um, yeah, I feel like you don’t initiate sex. There’s a lot of really big hurts and people don’t realize that Basically what resentment is, is unforgiveness.

So our spouse did something or said something. We have pain now. Right. It, it hurt and we have that choice to forgive or to let it go. [00:30:00] And if we don’t forgive. It becomes resentment, which then now that hurt has taken root in our heart and in our thoughts, and so you could use to compartmentalize it up in a garage and it’s kind of stored away.

But now the resentment. Like when you sit on the couch. Yeah. You’re like, I don’t really wanna talk to my husband. I don’t really wanna talk. I dunno if I really like, they really hurt me. And resentment, definitely unresolved issues, resentment, things like that. And that in away, and that’s sad. That’s sad

Casey: too, because one of the things we fight for is trying to teach people the tools on how to actually repair your relationship after you’ve heard it.

Yeah. Because

Casey: we’ve all made mistakes. We’re all gonna make mistakes, we’re all gonna hurt each other. If you have a tool on how to repair the relationship.

Meygan: Then, you know how, and so then I think kind of what you said, aj, of like, okay, I don’t really know what to ask. I genuine genuinely believe that after a long day of working the kids, it’s really hard to come up with a question.

So if you’re listening and you’re like, I, I want to do that, this sounds amazing. Don’t feel bad, Casey and I are just like, they’re with you again. Which is [00:31:00] why we use our. Own book. I love that. And, and so that’s why we wanted to provide a tool for couples to say on the go, if someone travels, take a picture of a few questions to, to answer.

When you’re over the pool, you know, at the pool or at a work meeting, wherever. When you have that time to connect, now you have a question and you don’t have to be creative in the moment. And, and, and wing it. And it’s kind of like we talk about this with, um, on our weekly marriage, business meeting, meal planning.

Have you ever done this where you’re both tired, it’s six o’clock at night, everyone’s hungry, and you’re like, what should we make for dinner? Um, what typically happens? Okay, sounds like we’re gonna go to Chick-fil-A, right? Like, don’t cook it. We don’t have anything. It’s hard to be creative. It’s like stuff

Casey: of my nightmares right there.

I know it’s, I’m hungry. And then you look at the pantry, it’s empty, like, ugh.

Meygan: Or it feels empty and you’re like, I don’t know what to make. It’s kind of the same concept of I wanna connect with you. We’re sitting on the couch or we’re taking a walk. But it’s been a long day and I can’t come up with something from scratch.

AJ: I don’t have the energy to even think about it. No decision

Casey: fatigue, right? It’s real.

AJ: Yes. [00:32:00] Yeah. But you know, it’s true because it’s like we say, uh, we say this in our house all the time, that, you know, fatigue makes cowards of us all.

Mm-hmm. And it’s

AJ: like that whole concept of, hey, when we’re so tired that we can’t think, we can’t step into a space of being creative or going out on a limb or doing something that feels.

You know, even the slight, slight bit of hard because it’s like I’m just tired. And what we, you know, it’s like we get, we, we tell people at our house that we get tary, right? That’s tired and angry.

Meygan: Oh,

AJ: who’s hangry? I like that. I’ve never

Meygan: heard that before. I mean, I’ve heard hangry, but I’ve never heard tary.

I, we might have to steal that and use that.

AJ: And it’s like, that’s, and it’s mainly because, uh. Roy Vaden gets Ry. Oh. Oh, okay. Okay.

Meygan: Alright. Casey Fasten gets hangry, let me tell you. Ooh. Yeah.

AJ: But it’s, it’s like concept of like, Hey, it’s like I just had, and I, I, I don’t know, but it’s like I at least think in an [00:33:00] era, in a world where Bo most homes have both spouses working.

Yeah. At least some, even if it’s not a full-time, 40 hour endeavor, it’s like there’s just more opportunity of like. I don’t know. I didn’t think about it. It was busy today.

Meygan: Yeah.

AJ: Um, and that creates that

Meygan: Yeah. Uh,

AJ: kind of rolling, uh, issue there. Yeah. Um, so I, I love this conversation and I kind of fast forwarded into some of like these tips and tactical things that I’d also like to just take a step back for a second and be like, how’d y’all get here?

Yeah. Right. And I think this is a little bit of the story of your personal brand and, uh, all of the content. It’s like I imagine, uh, as most good things, there was a problem I. Yep. And then you guys found a solution to the problem with her, with her.

Meygan: I thought you were the problem. No, you were the problem.

You were the problem. What? How do I fix my husband? Uh, I almost got that tattoo. No, it really genuinely came from this idea when we, so we fell in love. It took [00:34:00] us two years to fall in love and get married. It took us three years to destroy our marriage, unfortunately. And it took about four to five years to rebuild our marriage.

And as we were rebuilding and healing our marriage, we were extremely disappointed. That there was a lack of marriage resources out there. Talk about, you said getting curious, like mm-hmm. There’s gotta be a solution to this and we could not afford ongoing therapy.

Mm-hmm.

Meygan: But what in the world is missing?

I mean, this is not only a mass market, but how many people get married in their lifetime? And the marriage books again will tell you, you guys should communicate, you should forgive. Okay. But how do you forgive someone that you literally hate? Hmm. And you feel it. I mean, I, I gen you mentioned it. Yeah. We, we really had hatred towards each other.

We had so much resentment. And

Casey: let me just, let me just say also too, we were going to church and we were being told what to do. Like you should apologize, you should forgive. I. But no one ever told us how to do it. Yep. Mm. So then we’re like, I’m sorry. Yeah. I, I forgive you. [00:35:00] Yeah. I forgive you.

Meygan: Yeah. Moving on.

Moving on. And, and we still didn’t feel it. So it really, marriage 365, I mean, there’s a whole huge bigger. Backstory behind it. But that was one of the main motivators was we started becoming problem solvers. I’m a major problem solver, fixer. So Casey’s actually the more empathetic one in our marriage when we argue, thank you babe.

Where I tend to go to like solutions based and being like fix it mode. Like, okay, let’s solve this. So I kind, we kind of both just dove in and that that whole idea of the weekly marriage business meeting came from, wait a second. Businesses are organized. We could do that. Why don’t we make a marriage one?

I mean, that’s all it was. It was like, let’s do it. And we sat there and we wrote on a like a napkin one day and let’s figure this out. And so we started problem solving and of course all of our friends and family saw us and we’re like, okay, you guys should have been divorced by now. Yeah,

Casey: the pool. Pool.

Meygan: Yeah. Like we had bets on it that you guys were gonna be a done. They’re like, the fact that you’re laughing and like each other and fell in love is not only a miracle, [00:36:00] but. Yeah, you are genuinely changing and you need to share this with the world. I remember one of Casey’s best friends went to him and said, you need to stop

He was a nonprofit fundraiser for a long time, and he, and he said, you’re in the wrong business, buddy. You need to be helping marriages.

AJ: I love that. That’s so good. Yeah, and that’s, that’s

Casey: when we started posting stuff on Instagram. It was like the early days, and it just, it got traction really quick. Now, I, I will tell you, aj, like if, if there were stories.

Of our marriage that were so embarrassing that I was like, that story will never see the light of day because it was, it just like bad. We just were so ashamed. Yeah, so, so much shame around it. And it’s funny because those exact stories. Are the stories that people connect with most always. They, they see that always when they’re like, oh, well, maybe they see it and they’re like, well, at least we’re not as bad as Casey Meghan.

Jeez.

Meygan: So, you know, a [00:37:00] Facebook and an Instagram post then became, well, let’s try it. Write an ebook, and, you know, let’s do, um, you know. Uh, what else did we do? Well, let’s do retreat, let’s do coaching. I mean, and then we started getting training. We did training premarital training, premarital, and we, we

Casey: had a premarital course and then we start, yeah, started coaching and one thing led to another.

Yes. And again, it was just like the need testing different things.

Meygan: Testing, testing, testing all the time. Testing.

AJ: Okay. I wanna pause right here ’cause I need everyone to hear this on a personal brand. Level, and I think this is so important for everyone who’s listening, um, this isn’t just an episode about marriage.

This is also, this is also a message about business entrepreneurship and personal branding. Because any good business, any good brand first solves a problem.

Meygan: Yep.

AJ: Right? And how do you solve a problem? It’s like you’ve experienced it yourself. Right. And then you, you figured it out. You compassionate about it.

Other people see it. And I, and I love the organic nature of [00:38:00] not just your story, but some of the, the my favorite brands, um, that I’ve encountered, not just in brand builders group, but outside of it. It’s like, uh, this happened accidentally. This happened because we had a problem. We solved the problem. Then we realized, well, if we had this problem, there must be other people who suffer from this.

But it wasn’t just that you acknowledged it. You did something about it. Yes. Right. And I think that’s what’s so important of like if you feel like this calling on your heart of like, hey, like there’s something out there that there is. Right? Yeah. And, and it’s there for a reason. And you guys are a great, amazing testament to like.

It can come from anything. Mm-hmm. Right. It can come from like the valleys of a really distressed marriage to the reconciliation of that, of going, okay, well, clearly there’s a problem with this in our country and in this world. What can we do about it? And then. From there, you test, and I think that’s the [00:39:00] most important thing I want people to hear is that you don’t have to have it figured out the first time.

Oh, we had no idea what we were doing, figured out the first time. Yeah. So you guys, you said you did an ebook, then you did premarital, then you did marriage coaching. It’s like. Yep. What was that process like to figure out what, what is our home base like? What’s the thing? Can I

Meygan: say one thing and then you go for it?

I think one thing that Casey and I will always stand on is that we are never afraid to fail. I. Mm. We will always try something and we don’t look at it as a failure. We look at it as a teachable moment. So let’s do it. We’re gonna test it, see how people respond to it. And while it may not have gone what we would’ve liked it to go and or whatever that looks, the response wasn’t what we wanted.

We always do either a survey or we do like an internal one to say, what worked, what didn’t work? What needs to continue? Is this worth doing again? Right.

Casey: And I would say that, I mean, our faith is a backstop to that. To know that God’s gonna take care of us [00:40:00] no matter what. And I, I find it in this, especially that we had a, a, a down year last year, and it’s just kind of an interesting season to reevaluate where we’re heading.

And there’s this tension of, of recognizing that God’s called us to do this and there’s a, an act of faith. Like I, I, I consider Marriage 365 as, as Meg Casey, and Megan’s long obedience in a single direction.

Hmm. You know, we’ve

Casey: watched a lot of people come and go. Over the past almost 15 years. Um, but we’re still here.

Mm-hmm. And I will say in the marriage space, yeah. You have to be called. ’cause it’s really tough work to walk through people through their most traumatic experiences of life. Like, it, it is not flashy. What do we say? It’s, you’re not getting rich or famous doing this one, this work. Yeah. This is, this is tough in the trenches type of work.

But you know, at the same time, like I, we want to. Grow and scale so that we have the largest amount of impact. And [00:41:00] there’s that tension of always holding both of those together. Mm-hmm. That I think we walk with. And that’s, that’s a day by day kind of thing that we’re, that we’re walking through. So. We do have like this backstop to say like, we are not afraid to fail ’cause God’s gonna take care of us.

And he has called us and there have been times when things have failed miserably. I mean the, we need like five more podcasts to tell you all the, but. At the end of that day, we had to go, but God’s called us to this. Yeah. And we keep trying.

Meygan: So tactically, how does that look? Yeah, it, it’s testing a lot on social media.

That’s been a really big platform. We started in 2013, technically as a Facebook page. That’s how Marriage 365 started. Um, and then once, you know, you build an audience and you get them on your email list or your platform, whatever that is. You know, it was like, well, let’s try to write a blog and get people off of meta onto our platform.

Right? And it was like, oh, we got a good response. Then it was, well now these people are on our, you know, email list. Let’s write an ebook and see if we can make [00:42:00] money for five bucks. Yeah. For five bucks. Well, it was back in 2013, right? Life was a lot different back then. It was, social media was really just, I mean, just

Casey: Instagram really

Meygan: booming.

Well, no, we didn’t start Instagram until 2015, but, oh, that’s true. Yeah. And so, um, all that to say, we. I think that we had a vision board and we looked at all the different things and resources that we saw missing in the marriage world. Mm-hmm. Okay. In the marriage space and how could we be different because we are a different kind of a couple and how could we get our message out to people?

And then again, just testing, testing, testing well and trying things and really. Uh, we’re also big on calling people, so that’s another thing. I know a lot of companies, they don’t like to call customer service those kind of calls, but we, Casey and Megan Caston, co-founders, Ofer, you will get a call from us sometimes if we’ve got your number and say, Hey, can I just ask you like, what did you think about that book?

Or what did you think about that blog? And people are always shocked to hear from us, but we genuinely wanna know because guess who [00:43:00] we’re making the resources for? That’s

AJ: right, mom. Yes.

Meygan: We’re making it for them now. Now they’re helping us, but we don’t wanna stay in our own bubble and think, well, every couple’s gonna love this.

Ep 592: Numbers You Need To Know | Greg Crabtree Recap

[00:00:00] the truth that nobody ever told you before you started your business. If you [00:00:05] don’t know your numbers, you don’t own a business, you have a hobby, [00:00:10] and hobbies don’t pay. The bills. So let’s talk [00:00:15] about a few things when it comes to knowing the numbers. And I think [00:00:20] that, as an entrepreneur and as you are in your entrepreneurial endeavors, [00:00:25] building and growing your personal brand, whether it’s within a business or it’s completely aside of your [00:00:30] business.

[00:00:30] There’s some things that are fundamentally important, and I think the numbers [00:00:35] are a huge part of what people tend to shy away from, and it’s whether because they don’t understand [00:00:40] them or they’re not the fun and exciting part of the business, or they’re [00:00:45] confusing, and it doesn’t matter which category those fall into, those are dangerous places to be [00:00:50] as you’re growing and scaling a business or a personal brand.

[00:00:53] So there’s a couple of quick things that [00:00:55] I wanna talk about. As a business owner, congratulations, you are also now A [00:01:00] CFO. And that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t replace yourself one day, but at the end of the day, this is your [00:01:05] business. And it’s your business to know your numbers. You don’t have to be a spreadsheet [00:01:10] wizard.

[00:01:10] You don’t have to be a CPA and you didn’t have to go, to school and finance and [00:01:15] accounting to know how to run your business. But you do have to know what’s going on. So here’s a couple of [00:01:20] things. A quick checklist. Here are three things that you should be asking yourself and the most [00:01:25] simplest standards of, making sure that you have your ducks in a row when it comes to knowing your numbers.[00:01:30]

[00:01:30] Number one, how much money came in last month. Now I know that is seemingly [00:01:35] basic, and I cannot tell you how many six, seven, and eight [00:01:40] figure businesses that I know personally where the owner of their business could [00:01:45] not tell me how much money came in last month, basic and [00:01:50] important. Number two, how much money went out, right?

[00:01:52] So how much came in? [00:01:55] How much went out? And that’s IE expenses. So how much did [00:02:00] you bring in? How much did you spend? And then thirdly, how much is [00:02:05] left over. Right. That’s called, uh, revenue expenses net [00:02:10] profit. Right? But that’s simplest way to think about it. And at the very, very, very [00:02:15] basic level, those are the three things that we have to know is how much came in last month, [00:02:20] how much went out last month, and how much.

[00:02:22] What’s left over. This is not about, [00:02:25] uh, doing it all yourself, but it is about knowing what to do with the financial numbers [00:02:30] and not outsourcing that and not looking at it because you don’t want to, right? So that’s step [00:02:35] one. Uh, number two, you gotta have a system. All right, so these are four [00:02:40] quick systems checklist items that I will give you about how to get more [00:02:45] intimately acquainted with your numbers in your business.

[00:02:47] Uh, number one, make sure that as a business [00:02:50] owner, that you have separate business and personal accounts. That’s the first big [00:02:55] no-no, when creating some simple, basic financial guidelines in [00:03:00] your business. Personal and business accounts have to be separated. I [00:03:05] would say the same thing for credit cards.

[00:03:06] If you’re gonna choose to have credit cards in your business, then you need personal cards and [00:03:10] you need business cards, you need a business account, and you need a personal account. Make it easy on [00:03:15] yourself for reconciliation. Do not mix and mingle the two. I don’t care how small you are. I don’t [00:03:20] care if you brought in $10 last month.

[00:03:22] Have it in a separate account. Okay. [00:03:25] Second quick system to make sure that you have clean financials, uh, is make sure that you have monthly [00:03:30] bookkeeping. If you have to start with something as simple as a spreadsheet to track what came [00:03:35] in, what went out, and what we have left over, great. Uh, then you can elevate to simple [00:03:40] systems like HoneyBook, or we use QuickBooks online.

[00:03:43] Um, you don’t have to have [00:03:45] a bookkeeper, but you have to have bookkeeping. Now, at some point, it’s going to behoove [00:03:50] you to start with an outsource bookkeeper. Then you can hire a full-time bookkeeper. Then you can [00:03:55] hire a controller and you can start building the financial engine of your company. But until then.

[00:03:59] [00:04:00] You are the bookkeeper, you are the CFO. Um, and so you’ve gotta take control of this. You [00:04:05] can fractionally outsource it. You can hire someone for 20 hours a week. You can hire a company, an [00:04:10] individual, it doesn’t matter. Um, and you’ve got to have a bookkeeping system. Could be a [00:04:15] spreadsheet, could be QuickBooks, but you gotta have a system.

[00:04:17] Number three, you have to have a [00:04:20] tax. Planning strategy, not just a tax filing strategy. There [00:04:25] is a difference between tax planning and tax filing, right? Tax [00:04:30] planning has more to do with your entity structure. [00:04:35] And, what are the different ways that we use the money, right? So it’s making sure that you’re [00:04:40] set up the right way.

[00:04:40] It’s making sure that you’re best optimized to pay [00:04:45] taxes and only the amount that you owe. So let me be clear here about taxes. I am not [00:04:50] against taxes. I’m an American who lives in America and gets the great [00:04:55] privilege of paved roads, paramedics, police officers, [00:05:00] teachers, the fire department, red lights, stoplights.

[00:05:03] Those are things I [00:05:05] greatly love about our country, and I am all about paying my fair [00:05:10] share of taxes. I call it America’s money, right? This is America’s money, and I am happy to pay [00:05:15] it, and I do not want to pay 1 cent more than I am [00:05:20] supposed to. That is the difference between tax filing and tax [00:05:25] planning. I want to pay every good cent that I owe to America to enjoy all the benefits [00:05:30] that I get as an American, and I wanna make sure that I’m not overpaying, [00:05:35] I don’t wanna underpay, I wanna pay my fair share, but I most certainly don’t want to overpay [00:05:40] because I didn’t hire the right person.

[00:05:41] I didn’t know, uh, what counted. I didn’t know what was a [00:05:45] deduction. I didn’t know that I didn’t have the right entity. Those are all things that are tax [00:05:50] planning, right? And as someone who files your taxes and someone who helps you with tax planning [00:05:55] are two different people, you have to have two different thought trains on that.

[00:05:59] So what’s my tax [00:06:00] planning strategy versus who’s just gonna file my taxes? That’s the third. And then the fourth is your [00:06:05] profit, right? What’s your plan for profits? Are you trying to make profits, right? I [00:06:10] imagine you are if you’re in a for-profit business. Um, but you have to have a real [00:06:15] monthly budget.

[00:06:16] With revenue goals and expense limits, right? Um, [00:06:20] you likely won’t hit your financial goals if you don’t plan for them, and you [00:06:25] likely won’t hit the plan if you don’t track it, right? So there, there has got to be a [00:06:30] target of what we’re going after. There has to be a budget. Um, and that’s, that’s a well-defined [00:06:35] budget and lots of different arenas.

[00:06:36] And like I said, uh, even if the budget is, Hey, next month I can [00:06:40] only spend a hundred dollars on my personal brand for X, Y, and z [00:06:45] reasons. That’s a budget. Budgets don’t have to be huge, but everyone [00:06:50] needs a budget to make sure that you’re spending and earning in ways that [00:06:55] allow you to grow. The number one reason that most companies fail is they simply run out of [00:07:00] money.

[00:07:00] Don’t let your mission fail because you didn’t plan for the basic fundamental [00:07:05] essentials of financial planning. Okay. Now last but not least, I wanna [00:07:10] share just a couple of quick things of what smart, entrepreneurs do.

[00:07:14] Not the only [00:07:15] things, but a few things that they do to really help with this. Number one. Make sure [00:07:20] that you have, this is a best practice. Make sure you have monthly financial review time in your [00:07:25] calendar, right? I’m very much of a believer if it’s not in your calendar, it won’t happen, it won’t get [00:07:30] done.

[00:07:30] So make sure that you have monthly financial review time to review what came in, [00:07:35] what went out, and what was left over to make sure that you have time to evaluate. Do I [00:07:40] have enough set aside for taxes? Right? That’s a part of the plan is budgeting. [00:07:45] Uh, like, hey, when money comes in, I have to set aside some for taxes.

[00:07:49] ’cause nobody wants to be [00:07:50] hit with that surprise bill at the end of the year plan in advance. That requires [00:07:55] time. So make sure that that time is in your schedule in advance every single month. [00:08:00] The only reason that things get out of control is that you who is in control of the money, [00:08:05] stopped looking at the dollars and cents.

[00:08:06] So make time for that every single month. Number two, [00:08:10] hire a bookkeeper to help you keep things straight, right? Uh, that [00:08:15] comes at varying levels within your business, but with all the things that you have going on, uh, [00:08:20] I would say making sure that there is someone. Protecting the financial [00:08:25] realms of your business, which is what helps you keep going, is one of the most important things for you to [00:08:30] start with, right?

[00:08:31] It doesn’t have to be full-time. Maybe you start with five hours a week and then you grow [00:08:35] from there. But most people think, oh, I need a va. Right. That might be true. [00:08:40] Um, but you also may wanna look at, Hey, I gotta make sure that I have money [00:08:45] coming in and I’m limiting money going out so there’s money left over so that I can continue to do this next [00:08:50] month.

[00:08:50] Right. So weigh the pros and cons of who are the first [00:08:55] people that you hire. In order to keep the business intact. Uh, number three, make sure that you’re saving [00:09:00] at least 20 to 30% of everything that comes in for taxes and also hopefully some [00:09:05] profit leftover, right? So a good rule of thumb, based on what you are projecting [00:09:10] come in, you can start with 20, uh, we put aside 30% every single month of what’s left [00:09:15] over for taxes.

[00:09:16] Right, and that is to make sure that we don’t get hit with [00:09:20] surprise bills and that we always have operating capital and that we never put ourselves in a cash flow [00:09:25] crunch ’cause we spent all the money that actually belonged to America, right? So make sure that you have those [00:09:30] financial practices in place and that last but most certainly not lease, is make sure that you [00:09:35] actually have a monthly p and l to review.

[00:09:37] Right. Part of that time that you’re gonna set [00:09:40] aside is going over your profit and loss statement, your p and l, but you actually have to have one, [00:09:45] right? And if you don’t know how to make one and you can’t, then that’s why those initial, maybe first five [00:09:50] hours that you hire out could be a bookkeeper, because this is what keeps you in business.

[00:09:53] This is what keeps you in [00:09:55] motion. This is what allows your message to get out into the world, is that you have enough funds coming in that allow you to [00:10:00] keep doing the thing that you feel like you’ve been called to do. Right? There’s the art. To [00:10:05] this, and then there’s the business side of this, right?

[00:10:08] And they’re both [00:10:10] necessary. And you don’t have to, like I said earlier, you don’t have to be a finance major. You don’t have to be a [00:10:15] CPA and you don’t have to be a spreadsheet wizard to know the basics, but you gotta know the basics [00:10:20] because the basics are what are gonna keep you running so that your message can get out to the people that [00:10:25] it’s meant to help.

Ep 591: Simplifying Financial Success for Entrepreneurs | Greg Crabtree

[00:00:00] AJ: Hey everybody. Welcome back to the Influential Personal Brand Podcast. [00:00:05] I get the privilege of getting to interview someone today that [00:00:10] I have been learning from behind the scenes for actually a few [00:00:15] years and actually hired the company that he works with. Simple numbers [00:00:20] to. I actually come in and work with Brain Builders Group about seven months ago, and Greg [00:00:25] Crabtree has been notoriously renowned in the Entrepreneurs [00:00:30] Organization community for pretty much like the 10 years I’ve been a part of eo and I [00:00:35] read Simple Numbers.

[00:00:35] I’m currently rub reading his second book, simple Numbers 2.0, and [00:00:40] it’s one of, here’s what I would say, and this is a, a great testament to you, Greg, the [00:00:45] title. Is exactly what’s in the book. It’s how do you make very [00:00:50] challenging, difficult numbers, simple. So that as a, a business owner, I can apply those [00:00:55] two of my financial life.

[00:00:55] So to get to have you on our podcast today is a privilege [00:01:00] because selfishly I’m gonna get to ask you all these questions that I wanna know. But [00:01:05] also I know that if I want to know the answers to these questions, so does everyone who’s listening. [00:01:10] So I know this is going to be applicable and universally sound for everyone [00:01:15] who’s listening.

[00:01:15] So. Without, you know, further ado everyone. Let me give you a [00:01:20] formal introduction to Greg Crabtree. He is a CPA, a speaker, an [00:01:25] author, an entrepreneur himself who has dedicated his career to helping [00:01:30] entrepreneurs build the economic engines for their business. As the founder of Crabtree Roe [00:01:35] and Burger Greg has pioneered revolutionary metrics for measuring.

[00:01:39] Two [00:01:40] very important things we’re gonna talk about today, labor efficiency and then also something that [00:01:45] we’ve really adapted in our company culture, which is contribution margin to help financial [00:01:50] reporting for business owners. So Greg, welcome to the show. I’m so excited to have you.

[00:01:54] Greg: [00:01:55] Yeah. I appreciate it. Thanks for having me. That that’s a, a very, very nice introduction. I appreciate [00:02:00] it.

[00:02:00] AJ: Well, and here’s why I asked for you to be a guest on the show [00:02:05] today is I think it’s very challenging in a world where there is a [00:02:10] thousand different things that we could be looking at and financial D dashboards and [00:02:15] metrics, and you have so many terms and terminology that just. [00:02:20] Don’t necessarily make sense in real world application.

[00:02:23] It’s like, yes, okay, I [00:02:25] know what my profitability is and I know what gross margin is, but how do you [00:02:30] actually use those numbers to make decisions in your business as something that I [00:02:35] think you just do so extraordinarily well. And it’s something I’m really excited to talk [00:02:40] about today. But before we do that, I, I mentioned to this before I hit record, I was gonna ask [00:02:45] you this question because you could have done a thousand different things.

[00:02:49] And you [00:02:50] chose to be in the world of finance and not just in finance, but [00:02:55] in the world of finance for small business owners, for entrepreneurs. And we can be a [00:03:00] seemingly difficult audience to appeal to. So how’d you get into this and [00:03:05] why have you stayed in this?

[00:03:07] Greg: Well, I mean, first and foremost, I chose [00:03:10] accounting because they, they worked in an air conditioned office. I mean, so when you grow up, grow up [00:03:15] on a chicken farm in ho cotton in the afternoons, when you’re not gathering eggs, you know, you [00:03:20] just want to, you know, work in someplace that isn’t, you know, hot, smelly, [00:03:25] unpleasant. you know, once I started in the profession and got outta school, [00:03:30] you realize what they taught you in school is not what you do every day. And [00:03:35] after the shock of that wore off and I had to make a living, like many of us, we gravitate [00:03:40] to the thing that fits our passion. And, [00:03:45] and so I, I, you know, through a series of, of, of changes, I, the [00:03:50] firm I worked for originally, I got hired by a bank client of theirs to be their controller. [00:03:55] That was where I kind of developed my technology skills and love of kind of modeling and [00:04:00] forecasting, you know, with spreadsheets. It was like first generation pc. I mean, I was, I was running outta this [00:04:05] space every time I turned around ’cause I just kept pushing the limits of what it would do. And then left [00:04:10] there and, and went back into practice.

[00:04:11] ’cause I, I, I really had a passion for more, you know, working directly, [00:04:15] you know, with multiple clients rather than just working for the bank. But even that [00:04:20] had its moments of, you kinda get drug into, you know, the, the, the [00:04:25] stuff that, you know, you tell somebody you’re a CPA, the first thing you get is a tax question. you know, and, [00:04:30] and it’s like, yeah, I mean, it’s necessary, but it’s not the prime thing. And really for [00:04:35] me, I mean, and I wish this had come along sooner in my career, but you know, in [00:04:40] 2001 I got introduced to the non entrepreneurs organization and that was a, just a [00:04:45] transformative moment because at that moment, you know, I had a couple partners.

[00:04:49] We had a [00:04:50] qualifying million dollar CPA firm in Huntsville, Alabama. All of our clients were [00:04:55] local. since then, we became entrepreneur [00:05:00] focused and really more consulting first focused in that, you know, we’ve now [00:05:05] grown that, that practiced about 7 million of revenue and we, our clients are all over the [00:05:10] world. And 98% of what we do is not in Huntsville,

[00:05:13] AJ: Mm-hmm.

[00:05:14] Greg: [00:05:15] and, but it all came because of that focus of. [00:05:20] Really asking the question that I, I really attribute to my first EO forum [00:05:25] what is our per, you know, when I asked them how many would recommend their current accountant, the answer [00:05:30] was none. So that from a net promoter score basis, that’s a pretty sad [00:05:35] statement of a profession. and, and as a profession, we sell people what we do. We don’t do [00:05:40] what they need. And, and, and there’s, and there’s a, there’s a truth to that. And just about [00:05:45] anything in the world. The idea is, you know, figure out what the market needs [00:05:50] and, and that takes some time and takes some effort. And then once you find that [00:05:55] need, you gotta find a way to solve that need profitably.

[00:05:57] And then you start building the [00:06:00] marketing engine to say, let people know that you exist. And even to this day, I mean, we still straight, you know, [00:06:05] people try to put us in a box. Oh, you offer fractional CFO services? not [00:06:10] really. We, we may eliminate the need for fractional CFO services, you know, for what we [00:06:15] do, but we, no, that’s not the box we fit in. You know, and, you know, and, and so [00:06:20] it really comes down to, we really want to help people optimize [00:06:25] profitability, return on invested capital, which is a very poorly [00:06:30] understood, you know, topic of, capital you invest in the business. What is the [00:06:35] return that you should get out of it? You make that business as profitable and [00:06:40] capital efficient as possible, you’ve got the best of both worlds. It’s a very valuable [00:06:45] business should you ever decide to sell it, and it’s a very valuable business should you decide to keep it.

[00:06:49] AJ: [00:06:50] Yeah.

[00:06:50] Greg: you know, fortunately for me, the, the [00:06:55] study of the data is never ending because it’s like, and, and I don’t [00:07:00] go to the data. to, with a proof text I’m trying to prove, I go to [00:07:05] the data to say, Hmm, what are you saying? You know what, what? Look what, talk to me.

[00:07:09] AJ: [00:07:10] Hmm.

[00:07:10] Greg: And, and, and so really it was more so an approach that I had to do something that [00:07:15] accountants loathe to do is I go study data without somebody paying me to do it. [00:07:20] To, to develop. I mean, and you know, you’ve worked with us a while now and you [00:07:25] understand we have deeply held beliefs of how things work. Not [00:07:30] rules. No. These are beliefs

[00:07:32] AJ: Hmm.

[00:07:32] Greg: and for the most part, there is [00:07:35] only a handful of numbers that truly matter. and it’s easy [00:07:40] to, you know, get worried about some other numbers in your day.

[00:07:43] And it says, well, you know, I, I get that, [00:07:45] you know, don’t waste money. a call this morning before this call that, you know, a client [00:07:50] that’s in a rapidly growing mode, you know, and they were worried about, you know, hitting their [00:07:55] labor efficiency targets and, and, you know, their operating expenses that increase.

[00:07:58] They said, don’t worry about it. It, [00:08:00] it’ll be fine. said, you’re not spending money that’s not crazy. You hit that LER number, [00:08:05] you will have that level of profitability. You, you gotta go crazy with, [00:08:10] with the opex number. You know, for that not to happen. And once you understand the [00:08:15] power of leveraging labor and efficiently deploying capital. You [00:08:20] got something that puts you miles ahead of every other business out there, [00:08:25] you know, in that process. But they don’t teach us that in school. They don’t even teach you that, you know, in, [00:08:30] in the world of business because there’s all of these, know, rules of, [00:08:35] oh, you know, you know, business is valued at 10 times EBITDA or five times ebit, ebitda.

[00:08:39] You know, it’s like, [00:08:40] yeah, maybe not really. You know, those are, those are [00:08:45] benchmarks, you know, when people are talking about values. But if you have. I can get 10 [00:08:50] times ebitda selling a business that has a really bad EBITDA number, it didn’t mean I got my [00:08:55] value for it.

[00:08:55] AJ: Ah, that’s good.

[00:08:56] Greg: you know, and I can get five times EBITDA for a number that I’ve [00:09:00] got a, a, a, a very strongly adjusted EBITDA number that I win when the [00:09:05] argument for, and I get the right number. You know, so, so a lot of those things, there’s a lot of [00:09:10] lore that goes around in business

[00:09:11] AJ: Mm-hmm.

[00:09:12] Greg: and I, I just try to stick to finding what’s [00:09:15] truthful,

[00:09:16] AJ: Hmm.

[00:09:16] Greg: truthful. and trust me, in the [00:09:20] world of accounting, audits aren’t truth. Audits are, you know, are, are [00:09:25] things that, you know, it’s just generally accepted accounting principles that have a tendency to just confuse things more than they [00:09:30] help, and, and put a lot of weight on the data.

[00:09:33] And, and oh, by the way [00:09:35] anybody listening to this, that if you’ve ever had accountant prepared financials that got sent [00:09:40] to the bank, why is it that the bank calls you back and asks for more information? [00:09:45] If it was actually a sufficiently prepared document, the bank wouldn’t have any more questions. And, [00:09:50] and so once again, it identifies the deficiencies of what existed in the [00:09:55] marketplace, but it can’t be so deep into the weeds [00:10:00] that, you know, you’re, you’re picking lint outta your navel to kind of figure out what’s wrong. I mean, it’s like, [00:10:05] come on people. I mean, there are some long hail principles and to be quite honest, everyone that I [00:10:10] talk about, I learned from a client, I didn’t learn from school. The only thing I [00:10:15] learned from school I, I’m fortunate that we’ve done about 10 years of the program now. [00:10:20] I, I get to, to host the EO at Horton Executive ed program. and I’ve been [00:10:25] the host since the beginning. And, one of the early years of that program, [00:10:30] actually the first year of that program, or lead professor David Wess, was talking about return on Vista Capital. [00:10:35] And, and you know, I’m sitting in the back of the ring going, [00:10:40] Hmm, you know, I, I. Knew about that in school, but we never used it, never, never did [00:10:45] the calculation.

[00:10:45] And they got enamored with the idea of it. come to find out, there’s really no [00:10:50] private company data around that topic. And so I [00:10:55] just started studying it because we have access to data and, and so we have hundreds of businesses we can [00:11:00] look at, you know, and, and we started to find this, this very identifiable [00:11:05] correlation of a capital efficient business that’s producing the right amount of profitability relative to [00:11:10] the capital invested. Because in the, in the world of business, you know, there’s [00:11:15] really, you know, you can identify businesses of, do you have accounts [00:11:20] receivable and inventory? Those are tough businesses to get a good return on because I’m carrying two things that [00:11:25] turn over

[00:11:25] AJ: Mm-hmm.

[00:11:26] Greg: a frequent basis. Do I carry one? One of the two, but not both.

[00:11:29] [00:11:30] Okay. That gives me a little higher return potential. I, I can’t, I’m a business [00:11:35] that I don’t have ar or inventory. I get to bill either upfront. as I [00:11:40] perform, perform the service or sell the product. So that’s even better, [00:11:45] And, and do you have, then, do you have a big capital component of equipment?

[00:11:48] Well, you know, we’re a [00:11:50] very heavily dominant service-based economy in the us although we do have some capital [00:11:55] intensive businesses. But there’s a way to look at all of those things and equate it back [00:12:00] to setting your profit target then giving somebody something [00:12:05] definitive to aim at. I would say probably my [00:12:10] greatest amount of pride in the work that we’ve done is giving people a [00:12:15] very specific, definitive target that is unique to their business. [00:12:20] and you know, as always say, a man who aims at nothing hits it with amazing accuracy. [00:12:25] Well, it, and when somebody just gives you an opinion about something. [00:12:30] You’re not committed to that thing. It’s like, eh, you know, sounds nice. You know, may maybe we’ll hit it, maybe not, [00:12:35] but when, when you give people definitive things of, Hey, I need to be a two total LER, [00:12:40] I need to have two months of operating expenses in cash with zero drawn on a line of credit. I [00:12:45] need to be a 75% return on invested capital. are definitive things [00:12:50] that gives you trade off decisions of. [00:12:55] you know, I can grow well, but is growth good? Not all growth’s good. I got, I’m here to [00:13:00] tell you, you know, we have seen many times people have grown and made less money.

[00:13:04] AJ: [00:13:05] Yeah, I think that happens. I think a lot. And you’ve, you’ve mentioned this term a couple of times. [00:13:10] It’s one of my hot topics for today because, and I love what you said, there’s lots of [00:13:15] numbers you can look at, but there’s only a few that are like really instrumental to [00:13:20] really understand. And up until the last year, I [00:13:25] had never even heard the term of LER Labor efficiency ratio, and [00:13:30] I consider myself.

[00:13:31] Fairly savvy in the financial business world [00:13:35] and never had come up, not in school, not in [00:13:40] all the courses and all of the you know, I’ve done like anything from, you know, like [00:13:45] my financial, like MBA course to like, none of that had really like come up to how do you use [00:13:50] that? In business. And so I’d love for you to first of [00:13:55] all explain, because I think even definition wise, if you were just to go Google it, it’s gonna [00:14:00] be slightly different than how I believe you guys use it and practice it.

[00:14:04] Greg: Actually, you [00:14:05] probably we, we’ve become known enough as, I mean chat, GPT has read both of my books, and [00:14:10] so it, it, it, it actually will give you an accurate you know, answer.

[00:14:14] AJ: so [00:14:15] tell.

[00:14:15] Greg: yeah. Yeah. And, and so it really requires a couple [00:14:20] of things to think of. Number one is revenues, the slipperiest number on the p and [00:14:25] l and. Probably to go back in [00:14:30] thought of why I started looking into this is I was frustrated [00:14:35] with the annual requests that I get from clients who wanna be [00:14:40] included in the Inc 500, Inc. 5,000 list. And I’ve long [00:14:45] since believe, I mean, granted, I mean Great Frank Magazine to generate awareness and yes, [00:14:50] it’s a great marketing tool and, and I, I, I get all that piece. From a metric [00:14:55] standpoint of growth of revenue is you are not [00:15:00] rewarding the most deserving companies because there’s a lot of [00:15:05] companies on that list that unfortunately I do know the background of that, that [00:15:10] revenue is about as worthless, you know, as, as, as it gets. And, and so [00:15:15] as they say in Texas, all hat and no cattle, I got revenue, but I ain’t got profit and I ain’t got margin, you[00:15:20]

[00:15:20] AJ: Yeah.

[00:15:21] Greg: So it really kinda led me down this path. When I was on the [00:15:25] EO Global Board I started working with this thing that I, that I, I kind of [00:15:30] keep in my hip pocket and we’ll, we’ll probably use it here soon, I came up with [00:15:35] basically a business health scoring metric that looked at [00:15:40] not revenue growth, but gross margin growth.

[00:15:42] And the way we define gross margin is revenue [00:15:45] minus materials or con subcontracts, not labor. So I wanna [00:15:50] get to a gross margin number. That is the pure value of what’s left over for [00:15:55] your labor and your overhead to do in the business. ’cause everything else is really a pass [00:16:00] through, you know, at that point of materials or cogs. And, and so that gross margin is [00:16:05] the true economic top line of the business. And if you measure things off of it, well then we started [00:16:10] looking at, well, let’s measure things off of it. Well come to find out the more you study the data. [00:16:15] There is a very, very tight correlation of all labor. Doesn’t matter if it’s direct or [00:16:20] management, all gross wages not loaded for payroll taxes either.

[00:16:24] Keep it simple, [00:16:25] just wages to gross margin. There’s probably 80 to 90% of the [00:16:30] businesses offer off of one simple metric. need $2, a gross margin for [00:16:35] every dollar of labor to hit my profit target, and [00:16:40] you couldn’t get more simpler than that. And, and then. [00:16:45] We can take it and split it between direct and management for a next [00:16:50] level view.

[00:16:50] Now those that, you know, we, we look at total LER as a health diagnostic. [00:16:55] I mean, literally, I can look, I mean five minutes, I can look at a business and tell you [00:17:00] where its problem is

[00:17:01] AJ: Hmm.

[00:17:01] Greg: that that’s how simple the, the analysis is. [00:17:05] And once you look at it, you go, okay, well what can you do it? Well, let’s split it between direct and management and then let’s [00:17:10] watch it move across time.

[00:17:11] If we’ve got some historical data. Compared to now, [00:17:15] and those individual measurements of direct and management is more about your labor [00:17:20] strategy of how you go to market. I, I can win the game a lot of different ways, but direct and [00:17:25] management play off of each other. If I go expensive, direct labor, [00:17:30] I gotta have less expensive management labor. I can go balanced between the two, [00:17:35] or I can go inexpensive direct labor. Then I gotta have a lot more expensive management [00:17:40] labor to cover the deficiencies of the direct labor that I. Get you in trouble.

[00:17:44] AJ: Now the direct [00:17:45] labor revenue producing labor, right?

[00:17:48] Greg: Revenue really, [00:17:50] essentially. Think of it like this and, and we don’t get too wrapped around the axle about it, so don’t, don’t overthink [00:17:55] it. Somebody that spends 30% or more of their time facing the customer or [00:18:00] doing, making the thing that you do happen, you know, if you’re a product or service business. [00:18:05] So, so really, I don’t care what their title says, we have plenty of people that have the [00:18:10] manager title that we put into direct labor. I.

[00:18:12] AJ: Mm-hmm.

[00:18:13] Greg: Matter of fact in our office, [00:18:15] I’m direct labor, I still face clients more than 30% of the time, you know, in billable work. [00:18:20] So let’s face it, I don’t want to do management labor.

[00:18:24] I [00:18:25] like doing this. And, and so, so from that standpoint, but that’s really [00:18:30] just more, we call it a button, a bucket. Don’t split people. allocate. I’m an [00:18:35] avid anti allocator. I mean, in the world of accounting, accountants love to allocate things. [00:18:40] Allocations are just jobs programs for accountants. It, it just takes up time and, [00:18:45] and just pollutes the quality of the data. You know, at the end of the day, and [00:18:50] not gonna say that there’s no cases where you allocate, but it’s, but you [00:18:55] want to allocate as, as the last possible choice to get [00:19:00] clarity of the information. so at the end of the day, we call it a but in a bucket. Put the whole person in [00:19:05] into direct labor or the whole person in the management labor, watch it move across time. [00:19:10] Is it getting better? Is it getting worse? typically we don’t, like [00:19:15] month, months are highly inaccurate period of time. So we’re looking at rolling three is the shortest [00:19:20] period. We look at enrolling. 12 is your most authoritative period to look [00:19:25] at. then you can look and see at this mix. And, and for the most part, I mean, we. [00:19:30] Klan, I was talking to you earlier this morning. I mean, they, they’ve gone through this transition and they, [00:19:35] they’ve been growing, their total labor efficiency ratio had fallen [00:19:40] to below their minimum acceptable target, and, and it was [00:19:45] all in one place. It was in management labor. They had, you know, their direct, their direct labor efficiency actually [00:19:50] gone up,

[00:19:50] AJ: Hmm.

[00:19:51] Greg: management, they’ve gotten really heavy and lethargic, and, and this is [00:19:55] growing.

[00:19:55] Companies fall into this trap all the time. Oh, we need to add people to this. [00:20:00] You, you might, but for every dollar of management labor you add, [00:20:05] you have an output component. And this is really why I think management LER was even a more [00:20:10] revolutionary component even total LER.

[00:20:12] AJ: Hmm.

[00:20:13] Greg: Because [00:20:15] you have something that your management labor has to attain to, it has a [00:20:20] definitive measurement that, that, you know, ’cause if I add management labor, okay, now [00:20:25] I’ve reset the target of contribution margin.

[00:20:27] I. And then that works its way [00:20:30] up to then, you know, an estimate of revenue that we’ve gotta go get. And, and if we, [00:20:35] anything below that number is unacceptable. That, that’s just a definitive measure of, of, [00:20:40] you know, successful performance.

[00:20:42] AJ: What would that be like? Would you say there’s like a [00:20:45] baseline of like what you would say? Anything below this is like.

[00:20:48] Greg: now, now management labor, I [00:20:50] mean the individual metrics, there are some guidelines within certain [00:20:55] industries, you know, I mean, we, we have. You know, the one one we have a lot of mastermind [00:21:00] participants in, is it MSPs? And we, we kinda identified the neutral [00:21:05] success for Ms. P is a two total LER, like I said, [00:21:10] you want a 3.5 direct labor and a 3.5 management labor.

[00:21:14] Now [00:21:15] those two are me. Those, those, those two individual components have a different numerator. So that’s the [00:21:20] reason why they’re the same number. You know, but, but we’ve got people that are above one and below the [00:21:25] other.

[00:21:25] AJ: Mm-hmm.

[00:21:25] Greg: But the two balance out to get you to the two, to the key is you gotta get to the two total.

[00:21:29] AJ: Yeah.[00:21:30]

[00:21:30] Greg: And then once you set them side by side, you start to realize, oh, you’re, [00:21:35] you’re pushing inexpensive labor, but you had to compensate with more management. [00:21:40] Oh, you’re pushing expensive labor and you’ve got a really skinny management.

[00:21:44] AJ: [00:21:45] Hmm.

[00:21:45] Greg: All of those have. think of it like this. If I have really expensive [00:21:50] direct labor and I have really inexpensive management, problem is I have nowhere to [00:21:55] go

[00:21:55] AJ: Hmm.

[00:21:56] Greg: and say My expensive labor, last time I checked, still [00:22:00] likes to get raises. Well, they’re already expensive. Can will the market let me [00:22:05] continue to charge more. Now when I go to the other end and I got inexpensive labor and I got [00:22:10] the management. That’s more of what I would call a team development model [00:22:15] of where, okay, I’m gonna grow these people and you know, we’re gonna go from [00:22:20] inexpensive, direct expensive management to balanced.

[00:22:23] We’re, we’re actually moving [00:22:25] from that strategy to the balance mode. Once we get the balance, we have to decide, are [00:22:30] we gonna go all the way to expensive direct labor? Eventually, maybe, maybe not. [00:22:35] I, that’s the one where I typically find a lot of people are stuck.

[00:22:37] AJ: Mm-hmm.

[00:22:38] Greg: And they, they, they get some [00:22:40] terrorist on their, you know, a, a terrorist in labor is a person who doesn’t fit your [00:22:45] culture, but they’re a high producer.

[00:22:47] AJ: Mm.

[00:22:47] Greg: that, those, those are [00:22:50] people that, that, you know, when we look at it and Yeah,

[00:22:53] Yeah. You, you kinda get stuck with those.

[00:22:54] AJ: [00:22:55] it was, it’s interesting because I think one of the reasons that I was so drawn to this [00:23:00] concept of LER, labor efficiency Ratio is because me, [00:23:05] like so many other people, doesn’t matter how big your team is, you could have a team of one or a [00:23:10] team of. A thousand. There’s always this never ending [00:23:15] commentary and business of, there’s more work to be done than we have the team to [00:23:20] do the work.

[00:23:21] Right. And there’s, there was.

[00:23:22] Greg: it’s a, that’s not, and I’ll [00:23:25] give you a good data point for that. So in our most recent Horton class, and then I did the same [00:23:30] question the year before as well. W we get 60 entrepreneurs from around the world. All [00:23:35] different kinds of businesses. of the room. Will I ask a question? What [00:23:40] is your biggest constraint?

[00:23:41] Getting revenue or getting access to labor?

[00:23:43] AJ: Hmm.

[00:23:44] Greg: Half of the [00:23:45] room is revenue. Half of the room is labor and, and what you typically [00:23:50] find the necessary businesses of [00:23:55] the marketplace are labor constrained. The discretionary [00:24:00] businesses in the marketplace are revenue constrained.

[00:24:02] AJ: Hmm.

[00:24:03] Greg: And, and [00:24:05] that’s become a very interesting learning over the last couple of years, is we, we, we keep a, what we call the [00:24:10] simple numbers a hundred company model. So we have a hundred of our clients that we put in a [00:24:15] model treated as one big conglomerate. ’cause it’s businesses from all over the us, all [00:24:20] different industries, all different geographies, since we’re not geographically centric and it, it’s our read [00:24:25] of the economy.

[00:24:25] AJ: Hmm mm.

[00:24:26] Greg: And one of the things that has really emerged in the last five [00:24:30] years going through Covid is this separation of the necessaries and the discretionaries

[00:24:34] AJ: [00:24:35] Hmm.

[00:24:35] Greg: and, and the discretionary businesses are getting their head handed to ’em right now. And [00:24:40] so, so when people, you know, in, you know, write articles or going the news and [00:24:45] start talking about the economy, I mean, they’re, they’re paying with a pretty big brush because I got news [00:24:50] for you. We got people that are crushing it and we got people that are hanging on for dear life.

[00:24:53] AJ: Hmm.

[00:24:54] Greg: And [00:24:55] everybody in between. Now we tend to like to think that we can move the [00:25:00] needle a little bit, you know, to the better. And we do, you know, but, but [00:25:05] still, I mean, there’s only so many things we can do when, when somebody’s facing a market, selling a product or [00:25:10] service, that there’s just not sufficient demand for, because they’re, the, the [00:25:15] people buying it are the bottom 60% of the wage force no extra money at the [00:25:20] end of the month.

[00:25:20] They have to make hard decisions. And that’s, and we’ve been in that [00:25:25] mode for about 24 months now that those discretionary [00:25:30] businesses I mean, they’re hanging on like this, that they’ll have a good month, they’ll [00:25:35] have a bad month, they’ll have a good month and a bad two months, and a good half a month.

[00:25:39] And, [00:25:40] it’s, it’s really schizo and, and that that consumer base that they’re relying on is [00:25:45] really struggling.

[00:25:46] AJ: Hmm.

[00:25:46] Greg: Whereas, you know, the other part of the discretionary market is [00:25:50] what we call the highly desired discretionaries. are the people selling to the top 30, [00:25:55] 40% of the wage earners, but still, you gotta fight for their wallet.

[00:25:58] AJ: Mm-hmm.

[00:25:59] Greg: mean, [00:26:00] even those people make discerning decisions about what they spend money on and they don’t [00:26:05] spend consistently, you know, that things will get hot and things will get cold. you know, [00:26:10] and, and so, and a good place that you can kind of see it right now is like in the restaurant industry. [00:26:15] The bottom end is hanging on.

[00:26:16] Okay. their labor costs are high. [00:26:20] But you, you’ve seen them do everything possible to take labor out of the component.

[00:26:24] AJ: Hmm.

[00:26:24] Greg: [00:26:25] dining rooms, doing doing online ordering, doing ordering a [00:26:30] kiosk and all of those things. The upper end, they’re fine. They’re, [00:26:35] you know, if you’re good and you deliver, you do, you do good food and deliver good service.[00:26:40]

[00:26:40] Your parking lot’s always gonna be full because there’s enough people that have the money,

[00:26:43] AJ: Just,

[00:26:44] Greg: to deal with you. [00:26:45] that middle tier that’s getting crushed.

[00:26:47] AJ: Hmm.

[00:26:48] Greg: TGI Fridays went [00:26:50] bankrupt. There’s a couple of other, you know, mid tiers that are teetering on bankruptcy [00:26:55] because their cost of elevated to the point that they just can’t charge [00:27:00] enough to cover those costs because it pushes ’em into that upper tier pricing [00:27:05] somebody will come in and go, well that was good.

[00:27:06] It wasn’t that good.

[00:27:07] AJ: Yeah.

[00:27:08] Greg: And, and there’s a lot of [00:27:10] that. So there’s a lot of, you know, and every industry kinda has, you know, some of the, those same components I. [00:27:15] But if you’re in one of the necessaries, guess what? You can raise your prices to [00:27:20] whatever your cost input is. ’cause if you’re, you know, we, we have a [00:27:25] mastermind group, I’m about to go visit in the HVAC space, you know, they’re doing really [00:27:30] good now, they’re, they’re labor constrained.

[00:27:32] ’cause there’s not people that are HVAC techs walking [00:27:35] around looking for jobs,

[00:27:35] AJ: Sure.

[00:27:37] Greg: But as those people have, as you keep having to pay those [00:27:40] people more. You just charge more

[00:27:42] AJ: Mm.

[00:27:42] Greg: when you’re cold, you need them. When you’re hot, [00:27:45] you need them, you

[00:27:45] AJ: Yeah, I think that’s, that’s, that’s a good, I think that’s a good point of distinction [00:27:50] between, you know, what’s necessary and essential versus discretionary. And I think one of the things I, [00:27:55] I’d love for you to talk about too is like, because I hear this even in our own company, it’s like, Hey, [00:28:00] I feel like it’s time to hire someone.

[00:28:02] And what I love about LER is [00:28:05] it tells you more data-driven of. Are you [00:28:10] in need of more staff or is that just a feeling [00:28:15] that’s amongst the team? Can, can you talk about that a little bit?

[00:28:17] Greg: yeah, so once you, once you set the [00:28:20] parameter, so like I said, most people listening to this is they’re gonna fit that two profile. [00:28:25] If you’re a restaurant, you need to be a 2.5. If you’re a distributor, you generally need to be a 2.5. [00:28:30] I. you’re a union shop, you need to be a 2.5, but most everybody else is a [00:28:35] two. If you’re a staffing business, you’re kind of off the grid in a totally different mindset. You may be below a [00:28:40] two. So I’ll keep staffing businesses to the side, but almost everybody else kind of fits within those categories.

[00:28:44] AJ: [00:28:45] Hmm.

[00:28:45] Greg: If we establish, say, listen, you’re gonna, if you’re at a one eight,

[00:28:49] AJ: [00:28:50] [00:28:55] [00:29:00] [00:29:05] Mm-hmm.

[00:29:08] Greg: I want you to look around and [00:29:10] see, is anybody stressed? Are we running hot? [00:29:15] But if we’re not, let’s see if we can get to 2 0 5, maybe two 10. [00:29:20] find. If you have found a way to be marginally better than your [00:29:25] competition, and there’s a few times that. You’ll have windows of time. This won’t last [00:29:30] forever. got a, the, the click of a team that really gels [00:29:35] Your operating cost are optimized for the range of [00:29:40] revenues that you’re doing. And so this, you’ve got this window of [00:29:45] incremental value that just drops to the bottom line that gives you that extra little juice.

[00:29:49] But trust [00:29:50] me if you grow, you’ll kinda lose it and, and it’ll still be okay. But, but. [00:29:55] And, and if you kind of hit that rough patch of the economy and [00:30:00] finally goes soft, it’ll, it’ll drop down as well. But you’re trying to live between that one, eight and, and the two, [00:30:05] and, you know, and when you’re, and, and if you’re not there, let’s say you’re, you’re [00:30:10] operating consistently at a buck 75. Alright, so we go into the three Ps. [00:30:15] Ps. First, I priced effectively? That’s my [00:30:20] first place I always go. Have you? Have you defended the [00:30:25] value of your team? And that is on management. Shoulders don’t be a [00:30:30] wimp. go defend for that value. there’s a lot more room [00:30:35] for pricing than most people believe

[00:30:36] AJ: Hmm.

[00:30:37] Greg: been our experience over the last, I mean, we’ve seen [00:30:40] more price changes in the last five years than we’ve seen in a lifetime. And so I’m [00:30:45] telling you, most people have not pressed the edge.

[00:30:47] AJ: Mm-hmm.

[00:30:48] Greg: Once I get to the right price though, and [00:30:50] I, and I can defend it and I’m getting the right value and I’m letting the bad customers go to my [00:30:55] competitors and I’m keeping the good ones and serving them, the next thing is process. [00:31:00] Have I given my team the right tools, [00:31:05] training? Are we getting things, you know, David Wessel’s, one of our lead [00:31:10] professors at Horton, you know, talks about speed and power equation. And, and I love that [00:31:15] power is margin pricing power speed is clock time [00:31:20] from beginning to end. There is undoubtedly any project that [00:31:25] expands in length of time becomes less profitable. And so, you [00:31:30] know, there, there’s a significant lack of a sense of urgency in the productive environment of [00:31:35] most businesses.

[00:31:36] AJ: I agree. Mm-hmm.

[00:31:37] Greg: I, I, I’ve gotta, I gotta a [00:31:40] culture of everybody’s on, on target.

[00:31:42] AJ: Hmm.

[00:31:43] Greg: Once I go through those two Ps, there’s [00:31:45] only one P left people. Do I have the right people [00:31:50] And to take a college football and basketball term, the the transfer [00:31:55] portal of business has some talent in it at the moment, don’t think it’s gonna be there [00:32:00] long, but there is some available talent that I would kind of [00:32:05] be paying attention to and you might be able to upgrade your team. You know, [00:32:10] there’s perfectly good players on your existing team that end up going elsewhere because [00:32:15] you had to sit down and have an honest conversation with ’em and going, you know, I like you as a person. You’re a great [00:32:20] person, I don’t think this is the best place for you in the

[00:32:24] AJ: [00:32:25] Mm-hmm.

[00:32:25] Greg: And you gotta have those honest conversations with people and [00:32:30] know. The, know, how many of us have had in our [00:32:35] working career before we became business owners? Somebody sit down and do that with, with us, [00:32:40] not very many. we had to kind of find it out on our own, you know, but Robert [00:32:45] Glaser is a longtime EO member outta Boston. I mean, Robert came up with this concept that we’ve used quite [00:32:50] successfully, and what I call the mindful transition, where I got a good person. [00:32:55] They’re not going to get to their personal LER. We can actually measure [00:33:00] LER by person, you know, so not everybody can, but with our metric approach to things, we [00:33:05] can, so I can look at somebody and go love you as a person. You’re just not gonna [00:33:10] produce that. I, I can’t, you’re using up a productive slot of the business that [00:33:15] is underoptimized.

[00:33:16] AJ: Hmm.

[00:33:18] Greg: That means there’s a better place in the world for [00:33:20] you.

[00:33:20] AJ: Yeah.

[00:33:21] Greg: hey, you know, if you’re not disruptive. [00:33:25] Don’t, you need to be looking, I mean, and there’s a good job market. There’s plenty of jobs available. I mean, [00:33:30] that’s the nice, nice thing about this time of life that’s not existed before is [00:33:35] economy might be kind of, eh, sluggish, but everybody’s got a job that wants a job.

[00:33:38] AJ: Mm-hmm.

[00:33:39] Greg: [00:33:40] not be the job you want, but sometimes you gotta work at a little bit. But, you know, we can give those [00:33:45] people extended, you know, 60, 90 days to go, go find another job. As long as you’re not [00:33:50] disruptive, you don’t make a, make a scene about anything, we’re fine. You know, we’re not. We’re not grossly [00:33:55] losing money, but we’re not optimized, you know, within that, and I, and I’ll give you a [00:34:00] great example of that to put in everybody’s head.

[00:34:02] AJ: Yeah.

[00:34:02] Greg: So in the world of car service, [00:34:05] auto, auto, auto service businesses, they actually pay mechanics on a, a book [00:34:10] rate. So if you’re gonna go replace a carburetor in a bus, in a car [00:34:15] book says, takes seven hours. So you’re gonna pay the, the service technician seven [00:34:20] hours, whether it takes ’em three hours or 15 hours. To replace that carburetor. [00:34:25] one of the most unique industries that exist [00:34:30] of paying people for the value of what was done, not the hours that was done.

[00:34:34] AJ: [00:34:35] Hmm.

[00:34:35] Greg: Now, labor requirements, you can’t pay them less than minimum wage, a pretty good [00:34:40] indicator. You got the wrong guy. unsuccessful people in the car service [00:34:45] industry that, oh, I don’t have to worry about under performers because I’m only paying [00:34:50] them for what they produce.

[00:34:51] No, no. In a car service business, it is [00:34:55] the margin that goes through the bay a day, not [00:35:00] what you paid the person. if I have an underperforming [00:35:05] service tech that’s taking twice as long, yeah, I’m not having to pay him, [00:35:10] but I’m missing the opportunity cost of that bay turning over [00:35:15] activity. And I think we, we’ve got to look at our productive team. [00:35:20] Say, just because you’re not costing me money doesn’t mean you’re, you’re [00:35:25] optimized and, and you’re not in a good place, and we’re not in a good place because of that. And so if I [00:35:30] can’t get you up to speed, we gotta make a [00:35:35] change.

[00:35:35] AJ: Yeah.

[00:35:35] Greg: I know that sounds heartless and cruel, but there’s a, there’s a, like I said, [00:35:40] you know, Robert Robert’s demonstrated and we’ve been successful with that approach of going, listen, let’s just be [00:35:45] honest with each other.

[00:35:45] We’ll help you you know, you don’t have to do the. [00:35:50] Friday afternoon, walk of shame with a banker’s box, you know, leaving under the cover of darkness, [00:35:55] and, and, and have people with some dignity. But everybody, I mean, [00:36:00] my energy level, because I get to do what I really like to do every day [00:36:05] at my age. Oh, man, I, I don’t think about retirement.

[00:36:08] This is fun. Why would I [00:36:10] quit?

[00:36:10] AJ: And I think that’s kind of to the point of what you were just saying too. It’s like if there is a, [00:36:15] you know, unproductive slot on the team, the likelihood they could be [00:36:20] productive elsewhere is a high potential. They’re just not being productive here. [00:36:25] So it’s beneficial to both parties and, and that’s what I love about this financial.[00:36:30]

[00:36:30] And, and it’s interesting because this is a very HR written kind of talk around people, [00:36:35] but shows up in the financial statements. And I think it’s a really important connection,

[00:36:39] Greg: The [00:36:40] important thing in the.

[00:36:40] AJ: right? And it’s like, but that’s, I think a lot of people silos those two things and don’t look at [00:36:45] financial statements to make HR related decisions.

[00:36:48] And this is combining those [00:36:50] things for an entrepreneurial company, you know?

[00:36:53] Greg: and, and I think [00:36:55] you,

[00:36:55] AJ: [00:37:00] [00:37:05] [00:37:10] Mm-hmm.

[00:37:13] Greg: there for a reason. [00:37:15] But when, when you dehumanize people and, and think of, [00:37:20] you know, this is, this is a cost that just has magical properties when it [00:37:25] works. Now, one of the things I will say that we’re, we’re noticing, [00:37:30] so, so we’re in a period of the economy that, you know, like I said, I mean, if, if I look [00:37:35] at my model and you, you tell me what do I think GDP really has been? I [00:37:40] think we’ve been somewhere between zero and negative 2% GDP for about 18 months [00:37:45] on the data I’m looking at. And now it’s a really hard number to [00:37:50] measure, especially in a service-based economy. But that, that’s where my feeling is. for [00:37:55] every company that’s up, there’s a company that’s

[00:37:56] AJ: Hmm.

[00:37:57] Greg: And so, so [00:38:00] in, in that, you know, kind of environment, you know, of, of this flat economy. [00:38:05] What we’re, what we’re seeing is companies with good [00:38:10] cultures are starting to separate first time economically. Now, they were a [00:38:15] better place to to work, but rarely did they actually have better economic performance,

[00:38:19] AJ: [00:38:20] Hmm.

[00:38:20] Greg: which is sad. It’s sad to say, but people never talked about that. I take, take [00:38:25] away the, the Googles and the Facebooks of the world that make insane money and they can throw, you know, they, [00:38:30] they can buy you food every day and all that.

[00:38:31] I mean, I’m talking about ordinary everyday businesses that we, we can’t afford that [00:38:35] kind of stuff, but we gotta have a good culture. We gotta have each other’s back. But there’s those ordinary [00:38:40] businesses that are the dirty job businesses that have great cultures [00:38:45] and, and those are, are separating, which I love it.

[00:38:48] I mean, this is. Matter of fact, I [00:38:50] mean, I love this market more than any market I’ve ever worked in because [00:38:55] it’s going to show success for those who are best

[00:38:59] AJ: [00:39:00] Hmm. That’s good.

[00:39:00] Greg: the last 25 years has been the participation trophy economy. I [00:39:05] mean, the, the economy was growing so fast that you could roll out the ball and pick up a [00:39:10] game and you didn’t have to be good. And, and, and those people sucked up a [00:39:15] lot of the activity of the market. They should have gone to the better businesses. [00:39:20] Now this is, this is a good competitive market and if you wanna grow in this market, [00:39:25] you’ve gotta go take your fist and punch your competitor in the mouth and take their business away from ’em [00:39:30] because the market isn’t growing.

[00:39:32] AJ: Yeah.

[00:39:33] Greg: we’re in a market share [00:39:35] growth economy, not a growth economy.

[00:39:38] AJ: Mm.

[00:39:38] Greg: I, I just hope to get [00:39:40] my share of the new growth that comes along and. Be, be better than the others for the new [00:39:45] stuff that comes along and be better positioned for that.

[00:39:47] AJ: But that’s a huge opportunity for people [00:39:50] who are the better business to take market share.

[00:39:53] Greg: It’s [00:39:55] absolutely,

[00:39:55] AJ: So,

[00:39:56] Greg: we haven’t had to think about market share [00:40:00] acquisition for 30 years.

[00:40:01] AJ: Hmm.

[00:40:02] Greg: You know, probably since the nineties. I mean, the [00:40:05] nineties was probably the last time. You know, that, that the economy [00:40:10] probably had, had some vestige of a market share. You know, the, the [00:40:15] GE days of Jack Welch, you know, I mean, he, he, he, he talked about being number one [00:40:20] or number two in every market that they had a subsidiary in. You know, so he thought about that way. [00:40:25] We’re getting back to that kind of a marketplace, but even on a much broader [00:40:30] scale,

[00:40:30] AJ: that’s even like for the micro businesses in local markets. And I think, and I, [00:40:35] and I, and I love this concept of LER for those reasons. There’s another concept that you [00:40:40] talk a lot though that I had also never heard about, which I’d love to talk about before we run outta [00:40:45] time, is contribution margin.

[00:40:48] And so [00:40:50] similar to LER. Labor efficiency ratio for everyone. I’m gonna keep repeating that. This was [00:40:55] another term that was fairly new to me in this, you know, kind of [00:41:00] business owner world that has now become like the leading indicator of [00:41:05] our company health and had never heard about it a year ago.

[00:41:09] Greg: [00:41:10] It, it’s a, it’s a, it’s a closer derivation to, from what we call [00:41:15] contribution margin. Most people would refer to as gross profit.

[00:41:18] AJ: Mm-hmm.

[00:41:19] Greg: I, [00:41:20] I’ll give Vern Harness credit for this. ’cause when I was writing the chapter for scaling up [00:41:25] back in 2014, and I was having a discussion after I’d written the chapter. [00:41:30] And I’d use the term instead of contribution margin, I’d use the term gross pro. Or actually, I, I used the [00:41:35] term gross profit instead of gross margin, and he recommended [00:41:40] eliminating the use of the word profit unless you’re talking about bottom line. And I thought [00:41:45] that was a very brilliant insight, you know, because he is exactly right. [00:41:50] so, but what already existed, which helped in terminology there, if [00:41:55] you look at QuickBooks. Traditional p and l, you’re gonna see a gross profit number, [00:42:00] or a, a term, which is after cost of good sold, which [00:42:05] includes your direct labor.

[00:42:06] AJ: Mm-hmm.

[00:42:06] Greg: were very adamant, we said direct labor should never be mixed [00:42:10] with something that’s not labor. Labor’s the only cost that comes to work every day with an attitude. It, [00:42:15] it has, it has a variable output component to it. And so once you [00:42:20] separate the non-labor cost of goods and then your direct labor. [00:42:25] wanted a clean term to call that we didn’t want to use gross profit ’cause that would confuse people with [00:42:30] gross margin. And so we, we, we said, well, it’s a subset, so use the word margin [00:42:35] and attach a modifier word to it. So we came up with contribution margin, was what we named it. [00:42:40] And essentially, you’re exactly right. I, I contend that contribution [00:42:45] margin is the most important number in the business because the [00:42:50] output of your business engine.

[00:42:51] It’s the horsepower measurement. So when [00:42:55] you’re talking about buying a car and you want to know how, what, what’s the horsepower of that? [00:43:00] That that’s what contribution margin is. and so, but it’s a clean number with [00:43:05] only out, three inputs on what’s your revenue, your cost of [00:43:10] goods, of materials and subcontractors, and then what’s your direct labor? And, and [00:43:15] that’s direct labor with no add-ons or any of the other loads that are unnecessary. [00:43:20] You know, it, it’s, it’s a clean, clean, clean number.

[00:43:23] AJ: Mm-hmm.

[00:43:23] Greg: What we found [00:43:25] is one of the, some of our clients who use bonus programs, we [00:43:30] believe that contribution margin is actually the best critical number to base [00:43:35] performance measurement programs for bonuses and those things off of, because [00:43:40] it’s the number that everybody in the business can do something about. can do something [00:43:45] about contribution margin. costs that come below contribution margin [00:43:50] largely rest in the hands of the owners, or a handful of people in corporate

[00:43:53] AJ: And what would you say, like [00:43:55] for everyone who’s listening, because I’m trying to, I wanna make sure this is in the show notes. What is the calculation for [00:44:00] contribution margin?

[00:44:01] Greg: revenue minus cost of goods [00:44:05] minus direct labor.

[00:44:06] AJ: Right.

[00:44:07] Greg: three numbers. Now we draw our subtitle. So revenue minus cost of [00:44:10] goods is gross margin. gross margin minus direct labor is contribution margin. Now. [00:44:15] Contribution margin becomes the numerator that we [00:44:20] hold management labor to. this was, this was a huge, huge [00:44:25] thing.

[00:44:25] So we, when we identified that, that started striking fear in the hearts of [00:44:30] management teams that we’d work with. we actually had a way to hold their wages [00:44:35] accountable to output. So they want, they wanna go on the top number. Well, [00:44:40] that, that’s the slippery snake. Not every dollar revenue is the same value. [00:44:45] That contribution margin is you had to sell it, you had to manage the [00:44:50] direct costs, and you had to manage direct labor. Those are the three primary functions of [00:44:55] management. I gotta be good at all three. I can’t just focus on one to the detriment of the other two.

[00:44:59] AJ: [00:45:00] That’s good.

[00:45:01] Greg: Yeah. And that’s, that’s why it, it, it is the supreme [00:45:05] number that really tells you the directional health of the business.

[00:45:08] AJ: Yeah. And ever [00:45:10] since we started working with your team, it’s like we, we did, like we [00:45:15] reevaluated our entire bonus structure the, the financial dashboards that we look at [00:45:20] it every single week to make sure that contribution margin was the leading indicator of [00:45:25] what our management team is looking at to go, are we doing the thing that we’re supposed to be doing?

[00:45:29] Greg: [00:45:30] Okay. Yeah, because, and, and think of it from the businesses that have a choice of either doing [00:45:35] something internally or contracting it out. Well the bene, the net [00:45:40] benefit of both of those activities fall into contribution margin. So I can [00:45:45] subcontract it, all of it, subcontract a piece of

[00:45:47] AJ: Mm-hmm.

[00:45:48] Greg: do perform, self, perform, all of it. [00:45:50] the same net number has to come out to justify the existing of [00:45:55] management that is down below that number and that ratio of output, a contribution [00:46:00] margin to a management labor dollar is really your north star of, of [00:46:05] management labor effectiveness.

[00:46:06] AJ: Yeah.

[00:46:07] Greg: we see this all the time as businesses go through growth [00:46:10] phases. We, I look at that management LER number and you’re growing, but your management [00:46:15] LER number’s going down or even staying flat, which is telling me you [00:46:20] continue to give away your gain to the management team in, [00:46:25] in labor costs, and you’re getting no leverage.

[00:46:27] AJ: Mm-hmm.

[00:46:28] Greg: should, that number should [00:46:30] get better as I get bigger, not flat to declining. [00:46:35] Same thing. Now we can take management labor, which generally also includes your sales labor. [00:46:40] companies. When we will take that number and separate it into two pieces of looking at sales labor [00:46:45] separately from management labor, we’ve identified many of flawed sales [00:46:50] compensation plans sales LER, which is based on its numerator’s [00:46:55] contribution margin as well, that sales LER is flat to declining, [00:47:00] which tells you I get no leverage from somebody selling more.

[00:47:03] AJ: Mm-hmm.

[00:47:04] Greg: mean, the, the [00:47:05] company has got to get a better end of that deal

[00:47:07] AJ: Yeah.

[00:47:08] Greg: you, you’re just, you, you’re [00:47:10] just running that, that wheel faster and faster and getting less and less out.

[00:47:13] AJ: Yeah. It’s one of those, the [00:47:15] biggest lessons that I learned as a, a young entrepreneur is like, the number one reason most [00:47:20] companies don’t last is they simply run outta money. And that’s not revenue is that there’s [00:47:25] no money left over. Right. And at some point that’s, you know, it’s, it’s [00:47:30] mismanaged.

[00:47:30] Financials isn’t the right word, but it’s a true lack of awareness of the different [00:47:35] levers that run a business. And that’s why I just, for everyone who’s listening, [00:47:40] I know that we’re talking about. Seemingly complex [00:47:45] concepts, but y’all, the book, simple Numbers and Simple Numbers [00:47:50] 2.0. Highly recommend the simplicity of taking these seemingly complex terms and [00:47:55] making ‘ em exactly what we just said.

[00:47:56] They’re simple numbers that will help you guide your [00:48:00] business. And if you wanna learn more about what they do on a consulting and a, a [00:48:05] business aspect just go to simple numbers. CR i.com [00:48:10] and you can learn about all that. The thing that they do for companies, like they do for ours at Brain Builders [00:48:15] Group.

[00:48:15] And if you wanna learn just more about Greg, you can go to greg crabtree.net. He [00:48:20] does speaking engagements. You can learn more about his books there. But these are [00:48:25] financial terms that help businesses and help personal brands ensure that [00:48:30] you have the runway to do the thing that you started out to do, which I think is.

[00:48:34] Greg: Well, [00:48:35] well, I think, I think much in the way that, you know, you tell a story with somebody. Brand, [00:48:40] we, we essentially are storytellers with data because like when we did our planning session with [00:48:45] you, didn’t just look at the current snapshot of your financials. [00:48:50] just look at it compared to a single point in time.

[00:48:52] In the past, we looked at it [00:48:55] across time in a flow state, and what we found is [00:49:00] when I can tell you a story about this is what the data’s telling you here, and [00:49:05] you think back to what was happening then. Here’s what the data’s telling you here and how [00:49:10] that’s reacting. You’re exactly right. I mean, the entrepreneurs [00:49:15] struggle with time, context of what they feel about [00:49:20] what’s happening versus what the data’s telling them, and what our goal is to get [00:49:25] those from a out of time sink into time sink.

[00:49:27] AJ: Mm-hmm.

[00:49:28] Greg: I want your feelings and the [00:49:30] data to be aligned, you know, at, at the time. And I think it, it is just a handful of [00:49:35] numbers that help you do that.

[00:49:36] AJ: Yeah. And I would tell you every single time that I get on a call [00:49:40] with our simple numbers representative my feelings of [00:49:45] we’re not hitting our numbers, we’re not doing well, he very quickly is like, [00:49:50] what numbers are you looking at? Because when we look at the historical trailing 12 [00:49:55] months. You’re doing great.

[00:49:57] And I’m like, we are, we are. And [00:50:00] it’s, again, back to it’s, the feelings don’t often match the facts, but you [00:50:05] gotta have the data in front of you to line those up at the same time. Okay, Greg, so I, I know [00:50:10] we have just two minutes left and I have two very quick questions for you. This is for. [00:50:15] The early on entrepreneur, and then also for the more advanced established [00:50:20] entrepreneur.

[00:50:20] If they were listening to this episode, what would you say is the number [00:50:25] one action item that each one of those categories, the early on just getting started [00:50:30] and the advanced person should do leaving hearing this [00:50:35] conversation?

[00:50:35] Greg: Well, in essence, a little bit of both, but especially the early on entrepreneur, [00:50:40] you’re trying to get the financial truth. And so we talk about this in the first book. Really, the first four [00:50:45] chapters of the first book is just primary reading material for that early, that million [00:50:50] dollar or below entrepreneur, because you gotta get your salary set to a market wage. You [00:50:55] gotta eliminate distortions in your data so that you’re being honest with yourself about the [00:51:00] economic truth so that you can set pricing process people, you know, to get [00:51:05] those things aligned. But you’re gonna get to that, your, your signature LER number [00:51:10] is going to come very, very, very early in your business, probably somewhere in the [00:51:15] 500 to $750,000 range once you’re a larger business. [00:51:20] It’s reminding them of what the things they did that got ’em there.

[00:51:23] AJ: Hmm.

[00:51:24] Greg: Because they [00:51:25] tend to start to think, oh, we’re a bigger business and we should act differently. So no, [00:51:30] no. I mean, you need to hold on to that profitability back there. [00:51:35] and I think for the bigger business in a market like we’re in, you’ve also [00:51:40] got to understand that if we’re not in an expanding marketplace like we have been [00:51:45] in, where do you settle out?

[00:51:47] Are, you know, I mean, you can’t just sit still. I mean, you’re [00:51:50] always gonna grow, prune, grow, prune, even if you stay at the same revenue number. You’ve got to really [00:51:55] have a strategic decision of looking at your market and saying, how do we gain market [00:52:00] share? And when do we get to where the next percentage of market share isn’t worth it? And [00:52:05] there’s a point that we always get to. And then, what is your strategy from there? And I’ll just [00:52:10] plant the seed and we’ll talk about this on a later podcast. The emerging trend [00:52:15] that I love, and we got multiple clients now that do, this is what I call the emergence of the [00:52:20] portfolio entrepreneur.

[00:52:20] AJ: Hmm.

[00:52:21] Greg: You’re going to optimize the primary business you’re in [00:52:25] and then start another business that may be in a totally different industry [00:52:30] and, and we’re seeing people stack, you know, 5, 10, 15 business [00:52:35] units together with one. I mean, business is business at the end of the day. [00:52:40] You know, leadership is leadership. HR is hr. You know, marketing is marketing. Yes, you use [00:52:45] different techniques, but the concepts are essentially transferrable across many business [00:52:50] platforms. So this idea of, you know, running, you know, a, a multiple [00:52:55] business optimized entity with a very thin, not a heavy corporate structure, [00:53:00] but just the right amount of leadership and skillset that can be more effectively [00:53:05] utilized across multiple businesses instead of one. That, that’s an emerging trend [00:53:10] that I think you’re gonna see a lot more of.

[00:53:11] AJ: Hmm. Yeah. And I, I have seen that [00:53:15] in our entrepreneur community not just here in Nashville, but across the country. [00:53:20] All right, Greg, last question. In the financial worlds that [00:53:25] you live in, but also in the entrepreneurial community that you live in, what does [00:53:30] influential mean to you?

[00:53:34] Greg: [00:53:35] That’s a, a question I’ve never been asked. I mean, I, I think [00:53:40] influential is someone that is, is a go-to [00:53:45] person. I. So not so much trying to be influential, [00:53:50] but it’s someone that is sought out [00:53:55] you know, is the, the word that comes to mind is kind of an anchor. You know, [00:54:00] Hey, I want to anchor myself in good wisdom, founded [00:54:05] principles, and, and, and, and somebody that, you know, [00:54:10] kind of sets helps you set the cornerstones of the playing field. In that [00:54:15] and, and I think, you know, influence is not necessarily always something that’s pedaled. [00:54:20] It’s more so of, of something that’s maintained.
[00:54:22] AJ: [00:54:25] I love that. This has been so good. Y’all, again, I [00:54:30] can’t iterate this enough. And reiterate, it’s like the book is a wealth of [00:54:35] value. It’s like you’re gonna get an entire financial degree for roughly $25.

[00:54:40] So, get the book check them out simple number c i.com. [00:54:45] Also, feel free to learn about [email protected].

[00:54:48] Greg, thank you so much for [00:54:50] being on the sh

Ep 590: How Entrepreneurs Should REALLY Think About Wealth | Jim & Mimi Dew Recap

[00:00:00] Can we stop confusing wealth and revenue [00:00:05] together for just a second? And that’s kinda, I wanna start there. There’s a difference [00:00:10] between wealth and revenue and what our job is in this conversation is to stop [00:00:15] talking about the two, like they’re the same. Making money is not the [00:00:20] same.

[00:00:20] Is building wealth, and if you’re an entrepreneur, the way you think about [00:00:25] money needs to be completely different. So let’s actually talk about how to build wealth, [00:00:30] not just chase cash flow, right? So there are three different [00:00:35] categories of things that I wanna talk about in the next five to seven minutes that I think can drastically help you make [00:00:40] these very simple distinctions between wealth and money in your life.

[00:00:44] Number [00:00:45] one is the mindset shift between income versus wealth. Here’s what most [00:00:50] entrepreneurs tend to get wrong, is that you think more clients equal more money. [00:00:55] Equals more freedom. But wealth is not about how much money you make, it’s about how much you [00:01:00] get to keep, how much you get to grow, and how you multiply that, right?

[00:01:04] [00:01:05] That is the difference between money and wealth, right? And you don’t build [00:01:10] wealth from your income usually, and you build it from your decisions. [00:01:15] Okay. Most wealth is built not because you made a lot of money, is that you [00:01:20] made the necessary decisions in how to keep, grow and multiply that money over the [00:01:25] course of time.

[00:01:25] This is a, an emotional component of how we treat and think [00:01:30] about money. Okay? So key points here. Wealth is not [00:01:35] directly connected to revenue or income. I know plenty of wealthy people who do [00:01:40] not even make six figures. But they have made decisions about how to [00:01:45] deploy their money into ways that grow over the course of time.

[00:01:48] Number two [00:01:50] money is a tool, not a goal, right? I don’t set money goals [00:01:55] right now. Do we have financial budgets and do we have growth objectives? Absolutely. But [00:02:00] income, money is a tool. It’s not a goal. And wealth is a [00:02:05] strategy, not a result. Right. Wealth happens through incremental decisions [00:02:10] over the course of a lifetime.

[00:02:11] Not some results, some destination that we end [00:02:15] at haphazardly. Second thing I wanna talk about. There [00:02:20] are three buckets of entrepreneurial wealth, and now I’m using the term [00:02:25] entrepreneur a lot. But this could be a small business owner, it could be a solopreneur. This could be [00:02:30] anyone who is trying to figure out how do I grow and build?

[00:02:34] [00:02:35] My wealth. So think about it in three buckets. Number one, you have your active income. That’s your [00:02:40] business, right? That’s the money that you’re generating through your business. Number two, you have passive income, right? [00:02:45] Those are things that you’re investing into, right? And that could be anything from [00:02:50] retirement accounts to real estate to.

[00:02:53] A plethora of other [00:02:55] things that I won’t even take the time to mention here, but it’s where you’re investing your money. So [00:03:00] active is where you’re making your money. It’s your business. Then you’ve got passive. That’s what you’re investing [00:03:05] into. And then you have your protected income. So you have active, you have passive, then you [00:03:10] have protected income, and that is what you’re setting aside in savings and [00:03:15] you’re shielding for later.

[00:03:16] Right? And that could be later. Post working years. [00:03:20] That could be in the case of an emergency. It could be again for a plethora of different things. [00:03:25] But you have active, that’s company currently. You have passive that’s happening right behind the [00:03:30] scenes ’cause of your investments. And then you have protected IE savings, right?

[00:03:34] And the, a [00:03:35] variety of different savings accounts as well. But bucket number one, your active income [00:03:40] that’s what pays for your current lifestyle, right? That’s what pays for your bills. Bucket number two, your [00:03:45] investments, that’s where you’re growing your money, right? So you’re, you’re deploying the money that you have right [00:03:50] now into investments that’s hopefully earning a, a percentage of interest [00:03:55] beyond inflation that will grow over the course of time.

[00:03:58] And if as long as you leave your money [00:04:00] in historically speaking, that will always happen, right? But we’re looking for [00:04:05] returns that are greater than the rate of inflation. But the key to that is longevity. [00:04:10] Right. So the earlier you put it in and the longer you let it sit, the rollercoaster that we’ve [00:04:15] experienced in the last decade or so it all levels out over the course of time, [00:04:20] historically speaking.

[00:04:20] And then bucket number three, which is what we’re calling your protected IE your [00:04:25] savings money. That’s for retirement. It’s insurance, it’s emergency [00:04:30] funds. It’s all the things that may happen that are unexpected. [00:04:35] Right. And that’s the protected income. And I think a big part of this conversation [00:04:40] is again, it’s separating what is income versus what is wealth.

[00:04:44] [00:04:45] And you’re not wealthy typically because of what you earn for most of us, right? We’re not talking [00:04:50] about the Warren Buffetts of the world. Even though there was a time that Warren Buffett. Was not Warren [00:04:55] Buffet, right? There was a time where he was deploying these exact same strategies. [00:05:00] He just did it successfully enough and long enough to get to where he is [00:05:05] today.

[00:05:05] And I’m not saying all of us are striving to be Warren Buffett’s and with billions of dollars [00:05:10] that’s not what ~I’m saying, ~I’m saying, but we can deploy the same strategies, the same tactics in our own lives [00:05:15] to make sure that ~we, ~we have the life~ that we can, ~that’s at our disposal. ~Right. ~That doesn’t mean that we’re [00:05:20] all going to be buying yachts and flying private jets.

[00:05:22] Most of us probably don’t even want that. [00:05:25] But there is also some things that we can pull out ~and, ~[00:05:30] and apply to how we think and treat money that will help us do things [00:05:35] and ways that will set us up for success in the future. But I’m gonna say it again. It’s like you’re not wealthy because of what you [00:05:40] earn.

[00:05:40] You’re typically wealthy because of what you own. Right. And I wanna say that’s not just [00:05:45] material assets, right? This isn’t about earning, this is about owning. Now, I [00:05:50] think a lot of ~that ~that is underestimated when I talk about this, is also your knowledge, your [00:05:55] education, your expertise, right? If you have a skillset that is [00:06:00] transferrable, then there is always an opportunity for you to earn more somewhere else [00:06:05] later.

[00:06:05] Right. But that is owning your intellectual property. It’s owning your education [00:06:10] experience and expertise. It is owning that you’re in charge of learning how to [00:06:15] be the best at what you do. Now, owning can also be real estate. Owning can [00:06:20] also be investments. Owning can. Lend itself in a lot of different categories, [00:06:25] but most people’s wealth didn’t come from their earnings.

[00:06:28] It came from [00:06:30] what they owned, their earnings. And that is also just as much up here in your [00:06:35] head as it is in real estate or investments or any of the other [00:06:40] vehicles that you can do ~to, ~to earn outside of your ordinary income. I just wanted to put a heavy [00:06:45] emphasis on what’s underestimated when we talk about this.

[00:06:48] Is owning your intellectual [00:06:50] property, owning your skill sets, owning your expertise, investing into yourself, investing [00:06:55] into your education. That is something that no one can take away, right? No natural disaster can [00:07:00] take out that property. No one can remove that from you. You own it. It is [00:07:05] yours. Right.

[00:07:05] That is knowledge and education and information and skills that you have developed that can [00:07:10] be deployed anywhere at any time. Do not underestimate the [00:07:15] importance of investing into yourself as a part of becoming wealthy. [00:07:20] Now last, but certainly not least I wanna also talk about what you can start doing right [00:07:25] now to build wealth regardless of how much money you’re making.

[00:07:29] Doesn’t matter if you’re [00:07:30] making $40,000 a year or you’re making $4 million a year, what you make top line [00:07:35] has nothing to do with how wealthy you are, right? So let’s talk about some of those things. [00:07:40] This is in the entrepreneurial category, of course. Number one, make sure you pay yourself a [00:07:45] set salary, right?

[00:07:46] Revenue does not always mean income. ~I. ~And most business [00:07:50] owners most entrepreneurs pay themselves last, right? But make sure that you give yourself a set [00:07:55] salary. Number two, make sure that you’re setting aside 15 to 30% [00:08:00] in taxes and savings, right? You need that for emergency accounts. You need that to pay the [00:08:05] government but you also need that for your own ~s ~nest egg.

[00:08:07] Number three make sure that you talk to [00:08:10] financial advisors that actually work with business owners. Not all financial advisors [00:08:15] are equal. Not all tax strategies are equal, so make sure that you were [00:08:20] talking to people who specialize in actually working with entrepreneurs and business [00:08:25] owners. Those are different conversations for different types of people.

[00:08:28] So make sure that you’re talking to [00:08:30] people who cater and specialize in your unique realm as an entrepreneur or business owner. [00:08:35] And then last and certainly not least, and there’s a time and a place for everything, [00:08:40] but make sure you’re investing outside of your business. Even if it’s just $50 a month.

[00:08:44] And that could [00:08:45] be in simple IRAs, could be in Roth IRAs, it could be in a [00:08:50] 401k plan. It could be making sure that you have the necessary insurance in place. ~It could be in those but ~it could be in [00:08:55] other things, right? It could be in different mutual funds. But make sure that [00:09:00] you are using some of the money you have to deploy so that it’s working outside of your business.

[00:09:04] So [00:09:05] I could spend. Hours more talking about this. But I just wanna leave you with [00:09:10] this. You don’t have to be rich to build wealth, you have to be disciplined and [00:09:15] intentional to build wealth. And this is about freedom, not a flash. This [00:09:20] is about building something that allows you to do the things that you want to do [00:09:25] in this life, in this world, not something that is gonna be fleeting [00:09:30] and non-essential in the current day.

[00:09:32] So all of this has to do with [00:09:35] building wealth. And that is separate from your income and you do not have to be [00:09:40] rich in order to be wealthy.

Ep 589: Transforming Wealth Management for Entrepreneurs | Jim & Mimi Dew

[00:00:00] AJ: Hey everybody, welcome to the influential Personal Brand podcast, AJ Vaden here, [00:00:05] and I’m so, so excited to have this conversation with [00:00:10] Jim and Mimi do today, hun, because I love getting to learn from people that I [00:00:15] already follow, admire, and respect.

[00:00:17] But then super selfishly, I know [00:00:20] that every single thing they’re gonna share today would cost thousands and thousands of dollars to [00:00:25] pay for, and I get. The privilege of learning today along with everyone who’s [00:00:30] listening. And so, as you guys know, I kind of tell you who the episode is for. And you know, I think [00:00:35] it’s important that if I think this is an episode that everyone’s gonna benefit from, I’ll tell you upfront so that you can [00:00:40] set aside the next hour and not wonder is this for me?

[00:00:42] So let me go ahead and tell you [00:00:45] why I think this is one of those universal conversations that’s applicable to [00:00:50] everyone who’s listening. No matter what stage of business or personal branding that you’re in, [00:00:55] number one, we’re gonna be talking about wealth strategies. And uh, I think this is part [00:01:00] how do you make money, right?

[00:01:01] But there’s another part of it, which is how do you keep the money you make, right? And that’s the [00:01:05] wealth strategy part. And so if you’d like to talk about how do you keep more of all that [00:01:10] money you’re working hard for, then this is a conversation for two. Number two, we’re gonna talk about [00:01:15] understanding the importance of structured.

[00:01:17] Wealth management. And I think that is [00:01:20] also important ’cause there’s a concept of money, but then there’s all the tools, tactics, uh, tactics, [00:01:25] practices and best use cases of how do you actually create structure [00:01:30] to handling your finances. Well, everyone can learn something with that. Doesn’t matter if you [00:01:35] have.

[00:01:35] $10 in your banking account or 10 million. There are things to be learned about that. [00:01:40] And then what I’m personally most excited for is to learn all the blind [00:01:45] spots, the mistakes, the what to avoid, all the things that you [00:01:50] just don’t get to learn in every day. Business, marketplace, practice, these are the [00:01:55] things that you learn from professionals who’ve been behind the scenes, helped build [00:02:00] their own businesses, have worked behind the scenes with other very successful eight figure.

[00:02:04] [00:02:05] Probably even nine figure business owners that you just don’t get the opportunity to have these [00:02:10] conversations very often, and that’s what I’m most excited for. So Jim [00:02:15] and Mimi, I’m so excited to spend the next roughly 50 minutes with you. But I [00:02:20] also want to kind of give a joint bio of both of you so you guys have a [00:02:25] professional bio for everyone.

[00:02:26] So this dynamic duo is, uh, the dual founders [00:02:30] of DU Wealth Management, uh, specializing in providing fractional family office [00:02:35] services for seven and eight figure entrepreneurs. And with a combined experience of over 30 [00:02:40] years doing this, they have helped countless business business owners protect, [00:02:45] grow, and pro, uh, protect, transfer.

[00:02:47] Which I think is a big part of [00:02:50] conversation as well, their wealth strategically. So Jim and Mimi, welcome to the show. [00:02:55]

[00:02:55] Jim: Thanks,

[00:02:56] Mimi: aj. Thank you so much for having us here. Great to be, yeah, super excited to be [00:03:00] here. Jen and I will try not to talk over each other.

[00:03:04] Jim: Yeah. Which is gonna be [00:03:05] hard because we’ve been married for 32 years, so that’s,

[00:03:07] AJ: that’s exactly what Rory and I do like when we’re [00:03:10] on podcast interviews and so now like we have like all these like.

[00:03:13] Just best practices of, we [00:03:15] have like an eye and he knows if I’m giving him the eye, like I’m answering this first, [00:03:20] this eye movements. Uh, that’s what we do. But I’m so excited to have this [00:03:25] conversation and where I’d love to start is just helping [00:03:30] people. I think even understand what wealth management is.

[00:03:33] That’s a term that’s really broadly [00:03:35] thrown around in different business communities. You hear people talk about wealth [00:03:40] management, but what is that? What do you actually do to manage your [00:03:45] wealth? Mm-hmm.

[00:03:48] Jim: You wanna take that? Me? [00:03:50]

[00:03:50] Mimi: I’m gonna let Jim take it. Yeah. I, I’m giving him the, i [00:03:55]

[00:03:55] Jim: You always gotta ask your wife first for permission.

[00:03:57] You know, that’s a smart thing to do. You know, wealth management [00:04:00] comes in all kinds of. Flavors and sizes and everything else. But I think the key is, let’s boil it [00:04:05] down to its essence. And the essence is really the three pillars of wealth management, which is [00:04:10] protecting what you’re making and you’re building, managing what [00:04:15] you’re creating and building, and then also growing what you’re [00:04:20] creating, the money you’re making and everything else.

[00:04:22] And I think that people overcomplicate it [00:04:25] because what you really want to do is think about what do you want to achieve with your money? What are your [00:04:30] goals? What matters to you? And if you think about it, there’s a lot of things you can do with your money, but there’s only [00:04:35] three things that will make you happy and the three ways you can be happy spending your money is spending [00:04:40] money on experiences with people you love spending money to get your time [00:04:45] back.

[00:04:46] Giving your money away. Those are really the only three ways you can get [00:04:50] happier with your money. So thinking about in that, in that context of [00:04:55] what is it that you wanna achieve that would create memories with people you love? What is it that you would want to [00:05:00] achieve that allows you to buy back your time?

[00:05:03] And then what would you like to [00:05:05] achieve that would allow you to give back? And if you do those three things, you’ll be much happier. Mm-hmm. So those would be the [00:05:10] essence of what it means to manage your wealth.

[00:05:14] AJ: I love [00:05:15] that. You know, um, I just finished reading this book called [00:05:20] Die With Zero.

[00:05:21] Yeah.

[00:05:21] AJ: Oh yeah.

[00:05:22] And it’s a, it’s a [00:05:25] fascinating, interesting book and there’s lots of things I agree with, a few things I didn’t agree with. Um, [00:05:30] but I think there’s something you can learn from anything. And one of the biggest takeaways is, you know, how are [00:05:35] you spending your money to have better life experiences? Right, right.

[00:05:39] And I [00:05:40] love what you said at the very end of the book, which is at the end of, end of your life, right. [00:05:45] No one’s going to put on their tombstone had 10 million in net worth. And it was like [00:05:50] that really simple but common reminder. It’s like memories are what you [00:05:55] have at the very end, right? It’s like, what did you do with the people you loved?

[00:05:59] What did you do with the [00:06:00] money you had to help people around you? And that was like a very profound kind of [00:06:05] ending for me of like, yeah, like am I just. Hoarding money away to for a [00:06:10] rainy day, or am I doing it to grow the joy and experiences [00:06:15] of me others and serving the causes that I so deeply believe in?

[00:06:18] So I love that [00:06:20] you brought that up right here in the front, because I don’t think a lot of people talk about that.

[00:06:24] Mimi: [00:06:25] Yeah, we think about that all the time. The entrepreneurs, business owners, who we work with, I mean, all [00:06:30] of them give back the legacies that they’ve created. And so that’s why we love what we [00:06:35] do and the people who we serve.

[00:06:36] It’s, it’s just again, about giving back [00:06:40] experiences, creating memories, like you said.

[00:06:42] AJ: Yeah. I think that’s at the end of the day, [00:06:45] right? It’s like, what are we making all this money for? Right? Like what is it all for? So I, [00:06:50] I’d love to kind of. Start with that because a lot of the people that you work with have made a lot of money, [00:06:55] right?

[00:06:55] Mm-hmm. And I would love to hear from you guys, like what [00:07:00] are some of the most simplistic but. Helpful strategies [00:07:05] that you have learned from very, very, very successful and wealthy people, including your own [00:07:10] practices that anyone can employ to help them have the same wealth strategies [00:07:15] as you know, today’s billionaires.

[00:07:17] Jim: Yeah, probably the, the first thing I would say is [00:07:20] the most important thing, or one of the most important things is having the [00:07:25] right team. Because every entrepreneur over their lifetime, and this is true of whether you’re an entrepreneur or not, [00:07:30] over your lifetime, you’re gonna pick up an accountant, an insurance agent, a [00:07:35] banker, maybe an investment advisor.

[00:07:37] You know, an attorney maybe to do your will [00:07:40] or your trust or maybe an attorney for your corporate world, you’re gonna get these different professionals. And if [00:07:45] you picture those like spokes on the wheel, on a wheel like I have behind me, usually that’s what we call a [00:07:50] financial flat tire. ’cause they’re usually not all A players, they’re not talking to each other.

[00:07:54] And the [00:07:55] worst part is you are in the middle of that wheel trying to manage that team when you don’t have the time and you don’t speak the [00:08:00] languages of tax, legal insurance and investments. So the first thing I think is [00:08:05] to evaluate your team. To try to uplevel that team so you have a [00:08:10] players that are pulling for you and serving you and not serving themselves in silos, [00:08:15] which is what we see a lot.

[00:08:16] AJ: I have a question about that because I think it’s very hard [00:08:20] to find a good team, the right team, maybe good’s not the right word, [00:08:25] that the right team for you. Right. And I think one of the things that we have discovered is it’s [00:08:30] exceptionally difficult to find. Really amazing vendors, [00:08:35] partners, teams. Mm-hmm.

[00:08:37] So how do you, how do you do that? Like, how do you know that you have a [00:08:40] good one? How do you know that what you’re entrusting someone with, which in this case is a lot of [00:08:45] our livelihoods, right? Our finances. Our finances of going, right. It’s not [00:08:50] only that, hey, they’re not gonna do anything corrupt or, you know, experience malpractice, [00:08:55] but it’s like they’re making good decisions and I, I can trust them.

[00:08:58] Like, how do you discern [00:09:00] that?

[00:09:02] Mimi: Yeah. One of the things is to look for [00:09:05] specialists. There’s a lot of generalists out there and, um, who, who say that [00:09:10] they serve entrepreneurs and some retirees, et cetera, and so [00:09:15] entrepreneurs and business owners. Needs specific strategies, specific tax planning, [00:09:20] specific wealth strategies that we’re talk, gonna be talking about today.

[00:09:23] And if they don’t [00:09:25] specialize, it’s just kind of like, I think it’s their correct information. [00:09:30] It’s like if you were to see. You needed a surgeon in a certain area, let’s say [00:09:35] a heart surgeon. Um, you wouldn’t go to a surgeon who, an orthopedic [00:09:40] surgeon who just specializes in limbs, hip surgeries, knee surgeries and [00:09:45] things like that.

[00:09:45] So specialty is one of the things to definitely look at.

[00:09:49] Jim: Yeah, I, I [00:09:50] got two ways I’d answer that aj. One is what everyone on the call could do to [00:09:55] evaluate their team, and then the up level, which is finding someone who can do that for you, who has [00:10:00] expertise. Mm-hmm.

[00:10:01] Right?

[00:10:01] Jim: Because always if you find an expert that can do it for you, that can be the right answer.

[00:10:04] So [00:10:05] if you’re evaluating your team, which you should, I would say everyone on the call, write down your [00:10:10] professionals on a wheel, your account, and your attorney, your insurance agent, and then rank them one to 10. [00:10:15] And then once you rank them one to 10, one being should have fired ’em yesterday, 10 being [00:10:20] they’re the most amazing advisor you’ve ever met, then ask yourself, why am I rating [00:10:25] that person a seven or a nine or a two?

[00:10:28] Right? Because if [00:10:30] you don’t really have a good reason why you’re rating your professional ’cause I often hear entrepreneurs will say, well, [00:10:35] I like my so and so. Why? Because they return my calls and they’re nice to me. Okay, well there’s [00:10:40] more to that to decide if someone’s a really qualified professional.

[00:10:42] So there are five areas that I would say you should look [00:10:45] at. The first area is education and credentials. Second area would be looking at [00:10:50] their regulatory history, which you can look up on the websites, whether it’s your state board of [00:10:55] Accountancy, your state board of insurance, your uh, bar association.

[00:10:59] The third thing would [00:11:00] be their specialty, as Mimi said, what’s their specialty and how does that apply to you? Also, their [00:11:05] experience. How long have they been doing this? Hmm. And then the fifth thing is their personality and their follow through. [00:11:10] If you’re trying to get a first meeting to evaluate a professional, and they can’t even.

[00:11:13] Get the meeting set [00:11:15] up or they don’t follow up and let you know when the meeting is, then you can’t trust them to do a good job when you’re [00:11:20] actually working with them. So those are five areas you can look at. Now, the up level is when you get to a [00:11:25] place where you can hire a firm that actually builds your team out for you.

[00:11:28] And that’s really what we [00:11:30] talk about in the fractional family office, where you have a firm that knows how to build those. I [00:11:35] know we’ve been doing this for 26 years, our company that we started together in 1999, and we’ve [00:11:40] got over 500. Of the top professionals in every area of tax, legal, [00:11:45] insurance and investment.

[00:11:45] So when we have a new client, we evaluate their team and then we go, Hey, your accountant’s no [00:11:50] good. Let’s bring in an A player that we’ve worked with before. Your insurance agent is not the best. [00:11:55] Let’s get an A player that we’ve worked with before. So that would be the next level, when you can actually afford to [00:12:00] hire someone to build the team and run the team, and to manage the team for you.

[00:12:04] AJ: Yeah, I [00:12:05] think that’s really good. And I, I love, you know, the specialist component of it. ’cause I think a lot of people are [00:12:10] like, I just want a one stop shop. Right. And that means you’re getting just [00:12:15] surface level experience over everything and deep experience and nothing. I think that [00:12:20] happens a ton. ’cause people don’t have the time, right?

[00:12:22] And they’re just like, I just need one person who can do all the things. [00:12:25] And that at some point is no longer serving you very well. And then I love the other part of, hey, [00:12:30] evaluate who you’ve got. And I love those five criteria. I think those are really healthy. And then [00:12:35] knowing when have you outgrown them.

[00:12:38] And I think that’s the up level part. At [00:12:40] some point you continue to be successful in what you’re doing. You could [00:12:45] likely outgrow the team you have. So it’s making sure that you’re evaluating those in the plan. I [00:12:50] think those, those are really good, healthy parameters to start this conversation. So you [00:12:55] mentioned this Mimi with like, what are some of those wealth strategies and tax strategies we’re gonna talk about?[00:13:00]

[00:13:00] Let’s talk about those. What, what are the wealth strategies that [00:13:05] we, as entrepreneurs need to be aware of? And then I’d love to talk about taxes ’cause I find [00:13:10] taxes fascinating and frustrating at the same time. But, we’ll, we’ll start with the [00:13:15] happier of these two topics. The, the wealth strategies. What, what do we need to know as entrepreneurs?

[00:13:19] [00:13:20] What do we don’t know that we should know? Maybe start there.

[00:13:24] Mimi: Yeah, I know one [00:13:25] of the things that, especially in our industry, entrepreneurs are listening to friends, [00:13:30] listening to, uh, professionals who really don’t understand how to give [00:13:35] professional advice specifically to the business owners. And, um, so.[00:13:40]

[00:13:40] The main thing is, number one, to look and find a professional who specializes [00:13:45] in working with, uh, business owners, and then also looking for somebody who [00:13:50] isn’t there to sell products. Uh, there’s so many who kind of a Backended [00:13:55] way come in and say, you need this type of a product because it’s going to [00:14:00] save you this, or it’s gonna help you with text.

[00:14:02] Planning and really what’s behind [00:14:05] the scenes is commissions. It’s about, so if a professional comes in to sell you a [00:14:10] product, because there’s a big commission at the end. So that’s something definitely to, to look out [00:14:15] for since that is often sold as a wealth strategy or a [00:14:20] wealth plan. Um. And some other things.

[00:14:23] So anyways, Jim, what are, [00:14:25] what are some of the other things that

[00:14:26] Jim: I, I like to think there’s sexy things about wealth planning [00:14:30] and then there’s, and there’s things that are not sexy at all and entrepreneurs love the sexy stuff.

[00:14:34] Mm-hmm.

[00:14:34] Jim: So, [00:14:35] I, I wanna scratch that itch, but let’s start with the non-sexy stuff, right?

[00:14:37] So when I talk about the main pillars of [00:14:40] wealth management. Protect, manage and grow. Protect means things like insurance. Everybody hates [00:14:45] insurance.

[00:14:45] Yeah. It’s

[00:14:45] Jim: like a necessary evil, but overpaying for insurance or not having the right [00:14:50] coverages mm-hmm. Could put you at risk if you ever get sued, if there’s a problem with your business.

[00:14:54] So you [00:14:55] know that protect is really important. Also, entity structure.

[00:14:58] Mm-hmm.

[00:14:59] Jim: I’ve seen entrepreneurs, [00:15:00] they get. All these complicated entities way before their time, that becomes difficult to [00:15:05] manage. They don’t manage ’em correctly. They’re not keeping them compliant, which risk blowing up. Even if [00:15:10] you get sued, if you’re using it to protect you or.

[00:15:13] Too simplified. They don’t have enough [00:15:15] stuff because they’ve grown enough wealth where they need more on the entity structure. So I could spend a lot of [00:15:20] time on that, but those are not sexy, but those are critically important. Then on the more fun stuff, like grow, [00:15:25] entrepreneurs love to grow their money, and one of the problems entrepreneurs have is [00:15:30] that, and what we fall into this category.

[00:15:31] Mm-hmm. You start with something that has a possibility. Right? [00:15:35] We started our company 26 years ago. No one would’ve believed we could have made it. Because most businesses [00:15:40] fail. So we’re believing in possibilities. There’s a possibility we could make this work. And [00:15:45] then guess what? We did it. We made it work.

[00:15:47] We created this really successful company, sold to our [00:15:50] employees in 2022, still running the Business Inc. 5,004 years in a row. All [00:15:55] these things, right? So we’re like, we believe that we can make a possibility come [00:16:00] true. Then we have all this money we’re making and now we have to invest it. And guess [00:16:05] what?

[00:16:05] The tendency of the entrepreneur is to invest in things that have possibilities. [00:16:10] Hey, my friend’s doing the startup. I believe in possibilities ’cause I made this possibility come true [00:16:15] and I want something that’s gonna make incredible returns like my business. So they end up putting [00:16:20] their money in these deals where they lose their money and, and I don’t know if you’ve ever done this, [00:16:25] aj, but here’s the recipe, right?

[00:16:26] Hey, here’s someone I like, they brought me a deal. It’s very exclusive. [00:16:30] Most people don’t have access to it. Uhhuh, I gotta get my money to ’em in two weeks ’cause it’s oversubscribed. And [00:16:35] I look at the idea and I love the idea this can’t miss, and then I look at the financials, [00:16:40] it’s all up and to the right.

[00:16:41] I’m gonna make so much money off this deal. I throw money in and then guess what? I [00:16:45] lose all my money. That’s what entrepreneurs all the time do all the time. ’cause they wanna invest [00:16:50] in possibilities. They’re gonna make ’em these huge returns like their business. But what you need to [00:16:55] do is realize you are the very unusual that [00:17:00] made it work and you succeeded now to keep your money because.

[00:17:04] Creating a [00:17:05] business to make a lot of money is one thing, but keeping your money as the other. So to keep your money, you have [00:17:10] to invest in reliable, predictable investments, and those aren’t sexy [00:17:15] and no one likes to do ’em. You’re like, I don’t wanna invest in the reliable, predictable, the [00:17:20] real estate and the stocks and the private equity and the venture capital, and [00:17:25] maybe not too much venture capital, right?

[00:17:27] I wanna invest in Bitcoin and my friend’s startup company. [00:17:30] So that’s a recipe for disaster. So when you start making money, you have to have, first of all, a [00:17:35] game plan or a strategy. ’cause too many entrepreneurs are living by tactics. Mm-hmm. So in the [00:17:40] art of war, there’s a, there’s a quote I love it’s tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat.[00:17:45]

[00:17:45] Mm-hmm. So before you start investing, you should have your overall investment strategy. That means how much [00:17:50] of my money is gonna go into real estate? How much is gonna go into stocks? How much is gonna go into private equity [00:17:55] or private debt? How much is going to going to go into crypto and then stick with my plan.

[00:17:59] And within real [00:18:00] estate, I don’t want it all in multifamily. Look what happened the last couple years. So I’m gonna wanna spread it [00:18:05] around in different parts of real estate, because you get rich by being concentrated in a business, [00:18:10] but you stay rich by being diversified outside of that business. Mm-hmm. So you need a strategy [00:18:15] that you can stick to, otherwise you’re gonna run around like you’re in Vegas.

[00:18:18] Throwing money at cool [00:18:20] sounding stuff and 10 years later you’re gonna say to me, like a, a lot of entrepreneurs say to Mimi and I, [00:18:25] I made so much money in the last 10 years. Where did it all go? Mm. And that [00:18:30] happens unfortunately too often. I.

[00:18:32] Mimi: Yeah. And AJ for us being in the industry [00:18:35] 26 years with our business, we made mistakes as well before having our team, [00:18:40] having our own fractional family office.

[00:18:42] And, uh, same thing without having a strategy [00:18:45] and specific investment allocation. So we, we ourselves have, [00:18:50] it’s, it’s, it’s easy to fall, so you need the right team and, and the right strategy in place [00:18:55] that’s best for you.

[00:18:56] Jim: Yeah. And just to, to build off of that. I, I urged [00:19:00] Mimi to, to make this investment that we made in 2005.

[00:19:02] Now, if you do the math, that was 20 years ago [00:19:05] and it was a million dollars, and I was 100% sure. Remember, I was a very smart investor at the [00:19:10] time. I thought I knew more than I knew, which is an overconfidence problem entrepreneurs have. So I’m like, [00:19:15] this is a. A hundred percent. This is gonna make it, we’re gonna make millions off of this deal.[00:19:20]

[00:19:20] And I could tell you why I thought that. And there’s a lot of good reasons why I thought that. But guess what? It didn’t turn out [00:19:25] and we lost a million dollars. Now, a million dollars is a lot of money today. Even in our [00:19:30] situation, a million dollars matters today. But 20 years ago, it was a huge impact on us in [00:19:35] our lives.

[00:19:35] But the way I think about it, ’cause I was, I felt shame. I was embarrassed for a lot of years. [00:19:40] I never told people this, but what I learned from that mistake, I like to say. [00:19:45] I paid a million dollar tuition to get an education. Most people never get. [00:19:50] And then I see entrepreneurs reliving this, right? So we’ve never made that mistake again.

[00:19:54] [00:19:55] We’ve built a serious portfolio that’s strong and is [00:20:00] predictable because I realized I can’t invest the way I invested my business. I’ve gotta invest to [00:20:05] stay rich, not to get rich.

[00:20:07] AJ: I heard a great quote not too long ago is that [00:20:10] it’s only a failure if you didn’t learn the lesson.

[00:20:13] Yes. Right. So [00:20:15]

[00:20:15] AJ: good. Only a failure if you didn’t learn the lesson.

[00:20:17] Yes. And sometimes those are really hard, [00:20:20] expensive lessons, but as long as we learn, you know, is worth it, you know? And, [00:20:25] and one of the things that you said I think is really important since you know so many of the people who are listening. [00:20:30] You know, also in the midst of building their personal brand, AKA, their [00:20:35] business, and they’re on this entrepreneurial journey in some capacity, and [00:20:40] we at brand builders groups unknowingly to most, we do the [00:20:45] unsexy work of strategy.

[00:20:47] Right. And often what people think they’re [00:20:50] coming to for us is pretty websites and social media posts and all. And [00:20:55] it’s not a personal brand, nor is it business. Right? And we do the unsexy, [00:21:00] but foundational work of strategy. And what I have found, and I’m sure you’ve experienced [00:21:05] the same, is that that’s what most of us human beings want to [00:21:10] skip through.

[00:21:11] It’s like, well, that’s not where the money comes in. And that’s [00:21:15] not where the interest is earned. And for us, that’s not where everything is pretty and [00:21:20] shiny and in the public it’s, it’s the hard conversations and the planning [00:21:25] and the forecasting and all the things that, it’s like, when is it just gonna be done [00:21:30] work?

[00:21:31] Right. And that’s what I hear you guys saying. It’s like you gotta have a great team, but then you have to have a [00:21:35] great plan. In other words, a strategy before you just go spending your money. [00:21:40]

[00:21:40] Jim: Right. It’s so true. Yeah. And you know, you gotta think about what you’re trying to [00:21:45] achieve. And I always say, automate your saving.[00:21:50]

[00:21:50] And even if it’s 50 bucks a month, automate your saving. And it, I used to say this for years, [00:21:55] and then I found out Warren Buffet had said it a few times, so for whatever reason he gets credit. I don’t get credit. [00:22:00] But the quote is, don’t spend and save. What’s [00:22:05] Le left over? Save and spend what’s left over.

[00:22:08] And so one thing Mimi and I have done [00:22:10] for years is every December we sit down and we say, how much more are we gonna save and invest this next year than we did [00:22:15] last year? And then we. Put the saving in first. So the save saving happens [00:22:20] automatically. Even if we’re buying a piece of real estate, the money goes out of our checking account into another account [00:22:25] with a one-way door can’t come in ’cause we’re building up to buy that piece of real estate or whatever it might be.

[00:22:29] ’cause I need to move it somewhere where I can’t see it. ’cause if it’s sitting in my checking account and I’m pretty disciplined, [00:22:35] Mimi can tell you. But guess what? I like watches and I’m gonna find a watch that I like and I’m gonna spend that [00:22:40] money on a watch. So it will happen to. To the best of you. So safer spend what’s left [00:22:45] ever over.

[00:22:45] Because if you spend first we all know this is true. Guess what? There’s nothing left over. ’cause you can always [00:22:50] find something to spend it on. And by the way, like I said at the beginning, you think certain things are gonna [00:22:55] make you happy. Mm-hmm. But they will not. The only things that using money will make you [00:23:00] happy, as I said, is experiences with people you love getting your time back and, and giving it away.[00:23:05]

[00:23:05] AJ: Yeah. I think that pretty good. So wise,

[00:23:09] Mimi: I love [00:23:10] shoes, but they don’t hold value like the watches do. I know

[00:23:14] Jim: that’s a dangerous thing. [00:23:15] My watches have gone up a lot in value, but I people say, oh, that’s a great investment. I said, no. It’s [00:23:20] not an investment. That is not an investment. Because if I start thinking that, then I’ll start buying more [00:23:25] watches.

[00:23:25] I do not think watches are an investment. I don’t care what anybody says otherwise. I’ll buy watches. [00:23:30] It’s my throwaway money, and if they go up in value, that’s great, but it’s my money that I know we [00:23:35] don’t need and we’ve already saved first. And then I can myself a, a little reward.

[00:23:39] AJ: But, you know, but [00:23:40] that’s, I mean, that, I think that’s, that’s part of the, the plan right there is knowing, hey, this is.

[00:23:44] [00:23:45] This is not an investment strategy, right? This is this budget that we have set [00:23:50] aside after everything else. It’s my fun money. It’s my throwaway money, whatever you call it. But that alone is a [00:23:55] strategy that most of us aren’t taking the time to sit down and actually plan for. So [00:24:00] here’s what I would like to do.

[00:24:00] I’d like to hear from you guys. Maybe just like each of you share one or two tips [00:24:05] are ideas of like, where would you say are some of the most [00:24:10] effective strategies for building wealth today? [00:24:15]

[00:24:15] Mimi: One of the most effective strategies. Please. Well, um, Jim just [00:24:20] gave you one is again, um, saving first. Really, really just because [00:24:25] it doesn’t matter where, what level from a startup entrepreneur to a very [00:24:30] successful entrepreneur is, again, saving first before spending and [00:24:35] just really allocating where you want.

[00:24:37] And then number two is how do you want [00:24:40] you. Your money to work for you. Um, and what I mean by that is [00:24:45] everybody, we, we coined a term that’s called Make Rich Real, and it means different things to [00:24:50] each business owner. Each entrepreneur is, is it taking care of my family? Is it [00:24:55] providing for a charity, is it starting a, a new foundation?

[00:24:58] Is it [00:25:00] experiences and trips? And so just really allocating to. The wealth that you [00:25:05] make to what is truly important, and that’s in your heart. So many of our [00:25:10] clients have, um, for example, have started, foundations have actual rescue [00:25:15] charities that were wasn’t going to survive without, without some of those [00:25:20] I was saying.

[00:25:20] So those are the two big things

[00:25:23] AJ: I love. I think that’s good. And I think the whole [00:25:25] concept of, I just wrote down safer spend second, right? It’s like [00:25:30] simple, but not often practiced.

[00:25:32] Jim: Yeah, I, I, I’m gonna go a little [00:25:35] different direction on that. Uh, the first thing, as I just think about wealth building [00:25:40] strategies, the first thing is have someone, and this could be a firm, this could be a person [00:25:45] that protects you from yourself.

[00:25:46] Hmm.

[00:25:47] Jim: Richard Feynman was one of the greatest physicists who [00:25:50] ever lived, and one of his quotes was principle number one is don’t fool yourself. [00:25:55] And you’re the easiest person to fool. So if one of the greatest physicists said he could fool himself, you can fool [00:26:00] yourself too. And I see this all the time with entrepreneurs.

[00:26:01] They think they’re so darn smart. You’re not that smart. And [00:26:05] I, by the way, I do this my, with myself, and I’ve been investing for 30 years. When I have an [00:26:10] investment and I wanna invest, I’m getting excited. I stop. And I said, Jim, you’re not that smart. [00:26:15] What? Else are you not seeing? Mm-hmm. Now why do I do that?

[00:26:18] I do that because it [00:26:20] checks me in my overconfidence, but then I also have our team. I don’t make any investment. Mimi doesn’t make [00:26:25] any investment unless we talk to our investment team. And guess what? I don’t talk to my friends who are other [00:26:30] business owners, I. Because they think like I do, and they wanna do the crazy nutty stuff and they wanna buy the [00:26:35] NNFT and they want all this stuff, which is fine.

[00:26:37] You just want to have a strategy. How much of your overall [00:26:40] investment portfolio should go into an NFT? And by the way, the answer is not 80%, right? [00:26:45] Yeah. So having a game plan for that, but having someone, and it’s not someone who thinks [00:26:50] like you. It’s someone who thinks differently than you that can put you in check and have you just [00:26:55] rethink what you’re about to do.

[00:26:57] That’s number one. Number two is if you are married. [00:27:00] Take care of your marriage because one of the most expensive mistakes you can make in building wealth [00:27:05] is to have your marriage fail. It is incredibly expensive and distracting and [00:27:10] painful, and you know, on and on and on. Mm-hmm. So take care of your most important [00:27:15] relationship.

[00:27:15] If you’re married, which is your spouse, that’s a huge wealth building [00:27:20] strategy that you need to do. And then the third thing, and this will go in a little bit of a different direction, is [00:27:25] taxes. If you’re especially a successful business owner, the tax code is written to help [00:27:30] business owners do better.

[00:27:31] And your biggest expense if you’re a successful business owner is gonna be taxes. [00:27:35] So have a well thought out tax strategy, just like you have your allocation strategy that’s [00:27:40] implemented by good people, people you trust and have that updated every single year. [00:27:45]

[00:27:45] AJ: Okay, so first of all, I love that comment of like.

[00:27:49] Protect your [00:27:50] marriage. ’cause that can be one of the most devastatingly expensive things that is, is the [00:27:55] fallout from not doing so. And I think that’s a very big deal, a very, [00:28:00] very big deal in a culture where divorce runs rampant. And it’s like, well that doesn’t [00:28:05] just affect your marriage. That affects all parts of your life, your team business, your kids, your health.

[00:28:09] [00:28:10] Like you protect that. The other things kind of tend to work out. Like we have a policy in our family where [00:28:15] it’s, you know, God first marriage, second kids third. Right. And it’s [00:28:20] like as long as we’re good with God and we’re good with each other, everything else in our life takes care of itself. [00:28:25] But our kids do not like it when mom and dad go out on date night.[00:28:30]

[00:28:30] So we have our Wednesday night date night, and every Wednesday they’re like, why don’t we get to [00:28:35] come? And like I’ve had like this ingrained conversation with, and I have my, my boys are little [00:28:40] five and eight and mm-hmm. Literally like. Mommy and daddy need time together. [00:28:45]

[00:28:45] Mimi: Yeah. Yes.

[00:28:45] AJ: Right. And like mom and dad have to have a happy marriage that we can have a [00:28:50] happy family.

[00:28:50] And it’s just been one of those fascinating, interesting things where like [00:28:55] the temptation is so quickly to be like, well, let’s just do a family thing. Mm-hmm. And then all of a sudden the marriage [00:29:00] is not existent. And so I love that you said protect your marriage because that [00:29:05] is a, that is a wealth management strategy of like Totally.

[00:29:08] You keep that healthy and [00:29:10] intact. All these other things work. And then you transitioned into something that I wanna spend a few [00:29:15] minutes on talking about taxes. As I mentioned earlier, I am equally frustrated and fascinated [00:29:20] by all things taxes, fascinated by how many, um, [00:29:25] you know, exceptions to the rule there are, and how much you have to know and [00:29:30] learn to know what those exceptions are, right?

[00:29:32] Mm-hmm. There’s a few rules and then [00:29:35] thousands exceptions to the rules that just takes a professional. Mm-hmm. And that ain’t me. [00:29:40] Right. And it’s like I cannot give enough time to learn all the things that are constantly at [00:29:45] play and then changing. Um, but then you talked about having a good tax, you know, strategy.

[00:29:49] [00:29:50] Right? And that’s just like a business strategy. And that also takes it professional [00:29:55] and it’s, I. It’s unique and different by industry and state and your [00:30:00] setup. So what I would love to hear from you guys are like, what are some of the more [00:30:05] universally applicable tax tips or strategies that entrepreneurs need [00:30:10] to know about?

[00:30:11] Jim: Yeah, I, I think I would start with. The [00:30:15] mistakes that entrepreneurs make when they’re trying to do their tax planning, as I said, tactics over strategy. [00:30:20] Yeah. So their buddy said, I, I did a um, 8 31 B micro captive. [00:30:25] Then I’ll do that for myself. Well, it might be okay for your friend. It might be a tragedy for you.

[00:30:29] It could [00:30:30] be a big mistake. Right. Or, you know, I structured my business as a C corp instead of an S corp. [00:30:35] A friend of mine did that and supposedly there’s tax savings there, right? So again, you wanna [00:30:40] make sure that you’re not just doing stuff ’cause a friend of yours told you to do these things. Mm-hmm. You need someone who [00:30:45] understands you very well, your business and what you’re trying to achieve and accomplish to [00:30:50] create a good tax plan.

[00:30:51] So that’s the first thing is. Tax strategy is about the [00:30:55] uniqueness of your situation. It’s not universal. I can’t say, here’s what’s gonna work for these 10 [00:31:00] entrepreneurs. It’s gonna be different for every one of those 10. The other thing is just like investing. There’s [00:31:05] risk tolerance when it comes to tax planning Now.

[00:31:08] First of all, let me say that [00:31:10] there’s tax strategy that are really in the, the area that I would never [00:31:15] touch, right? And so I’ll just give you an example. We’ve seen entity structures, [00:31:20] trust structures. Sometimes it involves a foundation. Sometimes it involves insurance [00:31:25] sales, and magically through all these different entities, you pay no tax.

[00:31:29] Hmm. [00:31:30]

[00:31:30] Jim: Right. And, and the old adage about if it sounds too good to be true, so these, sometimes there’ll be a law [00:31:35] firm involved, but it’s always a little law firm. It’s not a big law firm. And there’s just a, a tax court [00:31:40] case. There’s not a tax court case. But the IRS is going after a business owner in [00:31:45] Colorado, it’s a dentist.

[00:31:46] And the dentist did one of these fancy things with trust and [00:31:50] entities to pay no taxes. And the IRS isn’t just going for interest [00:31:55] and penalties and taxes owed. The IRS is charging the dentist criminally and [00:32:00] trying to put the dentist in jail, and the dentists sign that tax return just like you and I sign [00:32:05] our tax returns.

[00:32:06] So be really careful about taking these ideas without [00:32:10] understanding the risk. That being said, even within the IRS code, we call ’em Bright Line Tracks [00:32:15] transactions. They’re in the code. There’s certain things the IRS. Doesn’t like and tries to [00:32:20] audit and tries to go after. And then there’s other things that the IRS doesn’t go after as often, right?

[00:32:24] [00:32:25] So you have a different risk level based on the entrepreneur. So one entrepreneur or one you could [00:32:30] think for any of you on the call. Sometimes we need entrepreneurs that go, I don’t care, as long as it’s [00:32:35] legal, I don’t care. I’ll take the risk. I wanna pay as little in taxes as legally [00:32:40] possible. If I get audited and lose, I understand the risk.

[00:32:42] I am fine with it. Right? Other entrepreneurs [00:32:45] will tell me. I don’t want to take any risk. I don’t wanna worry about audits. I don’t wanna worry about having to pay [00:32:50] back taxes and penalties and interest, right? Those are different tax plans for those two entrepreneurs. [00:32:55] Then where do they get the advice?

[00:32:57] Right? And so here’s a huge mistake entrepreneurs make. On the one [00:33:00] hand, they’re the accountants, and in general, accountants are historians. They take all your [00:33:05] information, they file the forms. Sometimes they get it right about telling you what you need to pay in your [00:33:10] estimated taxes. But the problem is they’re not forward looking.

[00:33:12] They’re not proactive. They’re not digging into your [00:33:15] situation and saying, Hey, aj, your situation, you need to do A, B, or C. Here are different ways to do it. Here [00:33:20] are your options. Let’s decide what we should do this year, next year, and the year after. They’re [00:33:25] usually looking in the rear view mirror, so that’s a problem.

[00:33:28] And often CPAs are not up on the [00:33:30] latest tax planning because they’re so embroiled in filing tax returns.

[00:33:33] Yeah.

[00:33:34] Jim: Then let’s take the [00:33:35] other extreme. They hire someone called a tax strategist or someone who says that they can help them with [00:33:40] tax. Often these people are paid through selling products. Mm-hmm.

[00:33:43] Sometimes they’re paid a success fee. [00:33:45] I would recommend don’t ever pay a success fee on tax planning where you say, whatever I save you, [00:33:50] you just pay me 10%. That’s a huge problem. Why? Because you are creating this [00:33:55] environment where that person’s gonna wanna save you as much in taxes as possible, even if [00:34:00] there’s too much risk, even if you might get audited, and you might get into trouble because they [00:34:05] get paid on how much they save you not making a smart decision.

[00:34:08] So you wanna pay someone, [00:34:10] you know, a fixed amount. Like, here’s what I’m gonna pay you no matter what. You save me in taxes. You wanna have [00:34:15] someone who has experience, who proactively looks forward, who does this all the time, but not someone [00:34:20] who gets paid in any way other than directly from you. So you don’t want them to get paid.

[00:34:24] If they bring an r and [00:34:25] d tax credit expert in and they get spiffed on the side, you don’t want them to get paid. If they sell you insurance, [00:34:30] you don’t want them to get paid a referral fee for someone. They introduce you to. You need them [00:34:35] only to represent you to understand your tax situation, your risk tolerance and taxes, and [00:34:40] then build a tax plan for you.

[00:34:41] Unfortunately, there aren’t a lot of options in the marketplace ’cause either [00:34:45] people are selling products, getting spiffed on the side or charging success fees, or you’ve got the [00:34:50] accountants that are kind of stuck in the mud, not thinking, but what you need is a firm that. Can help [00:34:55] you build a tax plan in a way where you understand how you’re paying that makes sense, and who can [00:35:00] really build one that fits your risk tolerance and then work with your accountant to make sure it’s [00:35:05] implemented and documented.

[00:35:05] So if you do get audited that you have the proof that you did it right. I. [00:35:10]

[00:35:10] AJ: Yeah. You know, the thing about this conversation, I think that’s really wise and it’s like there’s only [00:35:15] uniqueness, nothing universal. And I think that’s a really wise statement. Um, and then also referencing [00:35:20] the risk tolerance for everyone who’s listening.

[00:35:21] And it’s like, because that is, that’s the truth. Like our entities are [00:35:25] set up differently and our risk tolerance is different. The states are different. I think [00:35:30] where I see so many people challenge, it’s like. Where do you find these people? [00:35:35] Right. And it’s like that kind of back to so many people are defaulting to this one size fits [00:35:40] all.

[00:35:40] It’s like, oh yeah, I have, you know, my accountant, right, who’s a CPA, [00:35:45] they do my taxes. And it’s like, but yeah, like you said, they’re a historian, right? They’re not looking ahead, they’re only [00:35:50] doing what’s backwards. And we learned this the hard way when I realized our previous [00:35:55] tax firm, um, there, and, and this was like, this was an aha moment for me as an entrepreneur, is [00:36:00] that.

[00:36:00] For the relationship that we had, I had to come to realize like [00:36:05] their job was not to go and find out what applied to me that was my [00:36:10] job and that I would take it to them to vet. And it was like a very aha moment. Mm-hmm. That was, uh, [00:36:15] very eye-opening and frustrating. I was like, I thought this was your job, right?

[00:36:19] And [00:36:20] it was like, no, that was my job. And then theirs was just to vet it and go, was it applicable? [00:36:25] And. What hit me is that if I had not been proactive in that none of the things [00:36:30] that we learned that actually applied to us to have us in the right entity structure for our [00:36:35] state and our industry, none of that would’ve actually gotten done.[00:36:40]

[00:36:40] And that’s a scary thought for most entrepreneurs who are trusting all of that to just be done [00:36:45] by who they hired.

[00:36:46] Mm-hmm.

[00:36:47] AJ: So where do people go? [00:36:50] Where do you find these people?[00:36:55]

[00:36:57] That’s a hard, it’s,

[00:36:58] Jim: it’s tough. It’s [00:37:00] tough, you know? And I think, I know

[00:37:00] AJ: it’s tough.

[00:37:01] Jim: I mean that, and that’s why we created this model of the fractional family [00:37:05] office is because we saw that same problem in our own lives, uh, many years ago. Learned [00:37:10] how a billionaire family created this for what reason? And then we said, I wonder if we could do it [00:37:15] for ourselves.

[00:37:15] Mm-hmm. Because really what you’re talking about is having someone in the middle of your wheel. [00:37:20] Who’s managing the tac, the accountant, and the tax planning. Who’s managing the asset [00:37:25] protection? Who’s helping you with your strategy on the investing and putting it all together? And [00:37:30] ultimately, that’s the solution that we believe in most, and that’s what every billionaire does.

[00:37:34] The [00:37:35] problem is if you do it the way the billionaire does it, the very smallest family office cost $2 million a year [00:37:40] to run. And Elon Musk and Bezos, they’re spending over $30 million each. On their [00:37:45] family offices. And so that’s why we created this model. So if you are not [00:37:50] working with someone who can build that for you, then you have to be what we call the air traffic controller.

[00:37:54] You have [00:37:55] to get in there even though you don’t want to, and start holding people accountable. And so with your [00:38:00] accountant, I would suggest with everybody, if you’re not sure, if you’re accountant’s doing a good job or you’ve outgrown your accountant, [00:38:05] I would go schedule a meeting, pay ’em their hourly fee and say, show me what we’ve done the last few [00:38:10] years.

[00:38:11] To legally save on taxes. And in my book I actually talk about this ’cause [00:38:15] we went to our CPA, he had been our CPA since I was a school teacher teaching high school math and [00:38:20] physics, uh, to when we own this business and we’re making a lot of money. And I said that same [00:38:25] question, what have you done for us the last few years?

[00:38:26] And he said, well, remember I said that you can always be buy a [00:38:30] bigger house ’cause you get the interest deduction. You always wanna make sure you’re maxing your 401k [00:38:35] and you could give more money to charity to save money in taxes. And that’s [00:38:40] when I realized, I went back to Mimi and we’re like, this guy’s talking about elementary school.

[00:38:44] We need someone [00:38:45] who’s in graduate school. So I told us we had the wrong accountant. Right. And accountants aren’t [00:38:50]

[00:38:50] AJ: Yeah. For that sake. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:38:51] Jim: So you have to be the air traffic controller and they have to be careful [00:38:55] that if you’re gonna entrust yourself to attack strategist, you gotta make sure you understand how they’re getting [00:39:00] paid.

[00:39:00] Where their compensation is and, and are they in a position where they’re motivated to [00:39:05] have you take risks that may not be appropriate for how you feel?

[00:39:08] AJ: And I think that’s the key takeaway I wanted [00:39:10] everyone to hear. It’s like at some point, and you need to evaluate who you’re working with and decide.

[00:39:14] [00:39:15] Mm-hmm. Is this still the right person for the season that I’m in? Right. And it’s like, at some point, [00:39:20] we said this earlier, you may outgrow the team. Uh, and in this case it’s like, hey, there’s, there’s a graduation [00:39:25] that happens where it’s like, this was great. For this one phase, I’m now three [00:39:30] phases ahead. I need, I need a different team, a different thought structure, a different [00:39:35] strategy for where I’m heading.

[00:39:37] And I think that’s really good. Everyone who’s listening, if [00:39:40] you guys want to head over, I’m gonna have, uh, Mimi and Jim tell you about [00:39:45] something that they’re offering to this. Uh, call. We’re gonna talk about this waste wait, wait, [00:39:50] wealth waste calculator. And you guys can go and get this. If you go to do wealth, [00:39:55] DEW, do wealth.com/influe influential, and you [00:40:00] can grab the wealth waste calculators.

[00:40:02] Uh, Mimi, tell us what that is. [00:40:05]

[00:40:05] Mimi: Yeah, it’s a tool that we developed and it’s a way, so there’ll be several [00:40:10] questions and numbers. It, it’s, it’s a fun tool. It’s an actual calculator that you can put in [00:40:15] your number so it, it’ll ask you specific questions and in the [00:40:20] end it’ll give you a number of how much money you are [00:40:25] wasting.

[00:40:25] So that’s why we call it the Wealth Waste Calculator. So it, so it’s something [00:40:30] fun to plug in.

[00:40:30] Jim: And by the way, our team has spent hundreds of hours creating things on this. Yes. Pretty amazing. [00:40:35] This is not like something that someone did in 10 minutes and one more thing. You know, your listeners might say, well, [00:40:40] when would I be ready for a fractional family office to solve all these problems for me?

[00:40:43] Right. And really the [00:40:45] starting point is once you, if you have a business, ’cause this is for business owners, once you’re doing a million [00:40:50] dollars of gross revenue and netting at least 250,000, believe it or not, at that level, [00:40:55] you can start getting help. A fractional family office, and of course this goes all the way up [00:41:00] to where you could be making, you know, tens of millions, hundreds of millions of dollars, and it could still make sense for [00:41:05] you.[00:41:10]

[00:41:14] Did we lose [00:41:15] aj?

[00:41:15] Mimi: I know. Where’s aj?[00:41:20]

[00:41:23] Jim: We lost aj.[00:41:25] [00:41:30] [00:41:35]

[00:41:38] AJ: That was fun. [00:41:40] My, uh, Chrome decided to restart, so I’m going to have you start [00:41:45] over, Jim, when you said, some of you’re probably wondering when is the right time, so if you’ll [00:41:50] start over right there. Okay.

[00:41:53] Jim: Some of you may be wondering [00:41:55] when is the right time where you can actually afford to have a fractional family office?

[00:41:59] And believe it or [00:42:00] not, the starting point is when you’re a business owner and you’re doing a million dollars of gross [00:42:05] revenue netting at least 250,000. At that point, you can actually get the [00:42:10] essentials of a fractional family office. And of course, from there up to, you know, if you’re doing a [00:42:15] hundred, $200 million of revenue in your business, a fractional family office still could be a really, really [00:42:20] smart thing to do.

[00:42:20] So that’s where it would start.

[00:42:22] AJ: That’s good. And I think that’s good because that’s a lot lower than [00:42:25] probably most of us were thinking. I think most of people think, oh wow, like Family [00:42:30] wealth office, I probably need to be making $10 million. And it’s like. And, and that’s why I love the [00:42:35] fractional concept of this.

[00:42:36] It’s like this is something that you can start way ahead of probably [00:42:40] when you thought so. Okay. I know that we only have a couple minutes left. I’m watching the clock. I promise I’ll only [00:42:45] keep you for the hour that we promised. But I have, um, a quick question for both of you [00:42:50] and then we’ll wrap this up.

[00:42:51] But if you guys haven’t already, go to do [00:42:55] wealth.com/. Influential and actually use this wealth waste [00:43:00] calculator. I think it’s gonna be super valuable for everyone who’s listening. Alright. Here’s my question, [00:43:05] uh, for you, Jim, looking ahead the next five years, right. [00:43:10] And as we’re recording this, we’re in spring of 2025.

[00:43:13] Right. So looking ahead between now and [00:43:15] call it 2030, what are some of the trends that you [00:43:20] foresee becoming more mainstream or, or more prominent when it comes to wealth management [00:43:25] practices?

[00:43:26] Jim: Great question and I’m gonna answer that and then I’m gonna ask [00:43:30] myself a different question. And that is, as far as trends, obviously AI is gonna have a big [00:43:35] impact on things like wealth planning.

[00:43:36] It’s gonna have a big impact on everything. But there are certain things that are not gonna [00:43:40] change. And there was a, an interview with Jeff Bezos and the question was, what’s gonna change [00:43:45] in the next 10 years? And he said, I get asked that a lot. The question I don’t get asked, I should get asked [00:43:50] more is what’s not going to change in the next 10 years?

[00:43:52] ’cause it’s very hard to predict what’s gonna change. [00:43:55] It’s easier to predict what’s not gonna change and build a company around what’s not gonna change. So here’s what’s [00:44:00] not gonna change in the next five years, which is the most important question. Over time, real estate’s [00:44:05] gonna go up in value. Stocks will go up in value.

[00:44:07] Private equity will go up in value. [00:44:10] All certain things reliably and predictably will go up in in value. Over time. They’re gonna have their times when [00:44:15] they don’t go up in value. You want to be investing and reliable, predictable things in a solid [00:44:20] portfolio with a strategy over time. And then forget the noise.

[00:44:23] I hear entrepreneurs, they’re always trying to [00:44:25] guess what’s gonna happen next. Forget about it. You’re not gonna be able to guess what’s gonna happen next. And if [00:44:30] someone does, guess what? They’re totally lucky. Mm-hmm. So stop watching the news. Save first, [00:44:35] spend what’s left, get yourself on a good game plan, and then also get a good tax plan.[00:44:40]

[00:44:40] And then of course, the things like, like protect, but worry about what’s not gonna change [00:44:45] and what’s not gonna change in the next five years is all those things I just mentioned.

[00:44:48] AJ: Yeah, I love [00:44:50] that. I don’t know, um, if you guys have ever read the book by Morgan [00:44:55] Hasell, psychology of Money.

[00:44:56] Jim: Love that book.

[00:44:57] AJ: Uh, it’s one of my favorite books on money because [00:45:00] it talks about just that, right?

[00:45:02] Mm-hmm. It is like long-term in mind, [00:45:05] conservative nature. Focus on the things that are likely not going to change and [00:45:10] ignore the rest is that it’s boring, it’s conservative, it’s not [00:45:15] sexy, but it works.

[00:45:18] Jim: Yep. And, and you’re gonna get rich by [00:45:20] building a business. You’re not gonna get rich by picking crypto at the right moment or, [00:45:25] or buying the penny stock or buying that one real estate property that nobody knows is [00:45:30] worth a bunch of money.

[00:45:31] That’s not how you’re gonna rich. That’s how you’re gonna stay rich. You’re gonna get rich by being [00:45:35] concentrated in a business. ’cause that’s how Americans get rich.

[00:45:37] AJ: I love that. Um, alright, last question. [00:45:40] Um, uh, Mimi, and you know, Jim, you can feel free to chime in, but I’m gonna ask Mimi this question. [00:45:45] It’s like.

[00:45:45] In a world where a lot of people have influence, some of [00:45:50] it earned, some of it not. And in a lot of, uh, you know, my world at least, we talk a [00:45:55] lot about influencers versus influential, and you guys work with a lot of influential [00:46:00] people. So I’d love to hear, like, for you, like what does influential mean in [00:46:05] your world, in your workspace?

[00:46:08] Mimi: Influential and I, I, [00:46:10] uh, mentioned this a little bit earlier is we are. [00:46:15] Our entrepreneurs, what we do is we unlock resources for them so [00:46:20] that they foster so many different connections to make this world [00:46:25] a better place. And we’ve seen children’s charities grow. We’ve [00:46:30] seen foundations thrive. We’ve seen families [00:46:35] leave a legacy.

[00:46:36] Of, um, not just wealth from generation to [00:46:40] generation in gen, but how they’re teaching their kids to think about [00:46:45] money, how they. Money is saving lives. [00:46:50] Something that that’s really near and dear to our hearts. Jim and I never ended up having children. We’ve [00:46:55] been married 32 years and we’ve been working together as a spouse and, and really being intentional about our [00:47:00] relationship.

[00:47:00] But we just said what’s really important to us kids. Kids [00:47:05] rescuing them out of poverty. So we’ve started scholarships because we believe [00:47:10] one of the best ways of getting out of generational poverty is through [00:47:15] education. And so we’ve created. Some scholarships. We’re gonna continue creating more [00:47:20] scholarship, uh, throughout the year.

[00:47:21] So when I hear [00:47:25] influencers influential, it’s for us. The influencers are the ones who have been [00:47:30] influential to this society by giving back, making a [00:47:35] difference, and being role models for others to look up to in [00:47:40] how they’re truly creating wealth. By the use of the money that that [00:47:45] they have acquired.

[00:47:46] AJ: I love that.

[00:47:47] I think that’s so awesome. And I [00:47:50] think a lot of people talk about, you know, you know, and it’s interesting, I think [00:47:55] money is a tool, right? Right. And you can wield it for good [00:48:00] just as much as you can, wield it for evil. And it’s like what I hear you saying is like there is a [00:48:05] major opportunity PE for people who have been fortunate enough to build a lot of wealth to create [00:48:10] influence.

[00:48:11] And have influential opportunities that can change the trajectories [00:48:15] of lives, families, generations, if it’s used in the right ways. [00:48:20] I love that.

[00:48:20] Jim: Absolutely. I, I agree with Mimi and [00:48:25] you know, I, I think every, he agrees with me. I always agree with Mimi. That’s the smart thing. You have to [00:48:30] think where you are and what are your capabilities because influence, a lot of times we think [00:48:35] of like the rich and famous who have influence, but everybody has influence and everyone creates a [00:48:40] ripple effect.

[00:48:40] And even the way you and Rory are doing your date nights, right? One of the greatest gifts you can [00:48:45] give to your kids is how you model a marriage. And even though they give you a hard time about like, oh, we [00:48:50] want to go with you. In the future, they’re gonna go, wow. I saw how mom and dad [00:48:55] handled their marriage, and that gives me a modeling of how, like Mimi and I didn’t have the best [00:49:00] parenting as far as marriages and how they were modeled, but we’ve worked very hard to create a [00:49:05] model of our marriage.

[00:49:06] So it doesn’t have to be that you give a million dollars to charity, although that’s [00:49:10] fantastic if you can do that. It can also be other ways you influence people every day [00:49:15] in a way that is caring and kind and makes a difference because. The one [00:49:20] person you touch could touch thousands or millions of lives.

[00:49:23] You don’t know what you don’t know, what your kids [00:49:25] at their age, what they’re gonna grow up to become, and just what you’re doing right now with those [00:49:30] kids could have ripple effects that blow your mind in 20 or 30 years. So that’s what I would say with [00:49:35] influence. It’s easy for people to look on TikTok or watch TV and go Now, that’s the influential person.[00:49:40]

[00:49:40] But it’s the person who’s kind and who can touch others and who can make a difference and [00:49:45] lead people, and guide people and teach people. Those are the ones that have true influence that will matter [00:49:50] when the, you know, in the test of time, you know, in, in the future.

[00:49:53] AJ: I. Amen. Well, I couldn’t [00:49:55] agree more, and I, I agree with both of you, and I think the conversation of what it means to build [00:50:00] wealth, keep wealth, but then also deploy wealth for the good of others is [00:50:05] such an important conversation for the growing and scaling entrepreneur to to know [00:50:10] what to do with the money that they’re building so that it does create that lasting legacy and [00:50:15] creates influence beyond them.

[00:50:16] So both of you, thank you so much for joining us. On this [00:50:20] episode for everyone who is listening, again, go to do [00:50:25] wealth.com/influential. Check out that wealth waste calculator. Stick around, listen to the [00:50:30] recap episode. That will be coming up next, and we will see you guys next time on the influential personal [00:50:35] [00:50:40] brand.

Ep 588: How To Grow Your Social Media Following | Nicholas John

[00:00:00] Rory: Hey, welcome back to the Influential Personal Brand Podcast. One of the things that [00:00:05] we talk about often is that building a social media following is not what [00:00:10] it means to have a personal brand. Personal branding is the digitization of your [00:00:15] reputation.

[00:00:15] Yet social media is an important part of building a personal [00:00:20] brand, and it is something that is massively, uh, you can be a massive [00:00:25] indicator of your success. It can massively contribute to you reaching more people. And so today [00:00:30] is a very specific episode that’s dedicated to how to [00:00:35] grow on social media.

[00:00:36] And the person that we’ve invited in for this is someone that I [00:00:40] consider a personal friend. I actually started following this guy online, and [00:00:45] I loved so much what he was doing and how he was doing it. That I [00:00:50] actually reached out to him and I just, I just let him know. I said, I admire you. I think you’re doing a great [00:00:55] job.

[00:00:55] Uh, I don’t know what your business is, but keep it going. Uh, and so [00:01:00] I’m excited to introduce you to my friend Nick Nicholas. John. Now, he has been an [00:01:05] actor. He’s been a singer. He is been a model. There’s several different things that he has done, [00:01:10] but in the last couple years, he has grown to over 1 million followers on Instagram [00:01:15] and about a half a million or so on TikTok and few other places.

[00:01:18] And he’s done [00:01:20] this without being an international celebrity, without being like a billionaire, [00:01:25] like just going out and buying a bunch of ads. He’s done this. By serving an [00:01:30] audience with intention and efficiency and effectiveness and just [00:01:35] care. And I really, really love following him. He’s one of my, my favorite people to follow.

[00:01:39] [00:01:40] So he specializes. I think most of his content is sort of around just wisdom, uh, [00:01:45] mental health, uh, personal development, some spirituality. And so I was like, [00:01:50] Nicholas, do you think you would ever come on our show and just like, share some of your secrets? And he [00:01:55] graciously agreed. And so here he is, Nicholas John, welcome to the show.

[00:01:58] Nick: Thank you. Thank you. That was such a [00:02:00] nice introduction. I appreciate that a lot. Seriously, I,

[00:02:03] Rory: I wanna hear the story of how [00:02:05] you, how you got into this. Yeah. ’cause I feel like, I mean, you live here in Nashville. [00:02:10] Mm-hmm. Uh, right. And so I was super excited about that when I found out. ’cause I was like, oh, I could actually meet you in, in the real [00:02:15] person.

[00:02:15] Um, and I feel like your background. There’s a lot of [00:02:20] people in the world who are like, I was gonna be an actor. I was gonna be a singer. Yeah. I was gonna be, I’m [00:02:25] just a creative. And then, you know, in the world of social media, you’ve kind of like [00:02:30] found a home, made a home mm-hmm. For yourself. So tell us that story,

[00:02:33] Nick: man.

[00:02:33] It’s, uh, [00:02:35] where to begin, but I, I think a lot of people especially that are listening to this [00:02:40] and follow you, um, will relate to this idea of feeling like very [00:02:45] creative, but not necessarily always knowing where to use it. Like what outlet is the best [00:02:50] suit for your creativity. Um, and for me, [00:02:55] man, it was a long, long journey, but I came here to pursue songwriting, so I [00:03:00] randomly started writing songs in, um.

[00:03:03] In Wisconsin when [00:03:05] I was in college and my friends convinced me to put it online. It’s really cringey and embarrassing at [00:03:10] this point, but like the, the second show I ever did, I was opening for Mac [00:03:15] Miller. Like, it was crazy stuff. Like, it just like it worked, but it wasn’t, [00:03:20] um, it wasn’t me. Like I could feel that it wasn’t me in a way.

[00:03:24] [00:03:25] And I was, I was doing it maybe for, I guess the wrong reasons, like [00:03:30] to glorify myself in a way. And so, uh, fast forward, moved to [00:03:35] Nashville to try and pursue songwriting in a different way. And throughout that journey [00:03:40] kind of was introduced to this idea of Jesus and uh, Christianity. [00:03:45] And that really shifted how I viewed what my purpose on [00:03:50] this planet was.

[00:03:51] Interesting. Yeah. And so, you know, something [00:03:55] that. You say, or I’ve heard you say on a podcast that is like, truly one of my [00:04:00] favorite quotes is the, your most powerfully positioned to serve the person you once were. And, [00:04:05] uh, that, just that concept in general. Uh, it rang true for me. [00:04:10] Reading to Reading The Go Giver was a great book that I love.

[00:04:12] That book helped me. Um, and [00:04:15] then the Bible and just, you know, people like you kind of shifting this mindset [00:04:20] of like, okay, how can I use these talents that I’ve been given, not just to glorify [00:04:25] myself, but um, to help other people. And, uh, I guess just to get [00:04:30] real raw with it right away. I, when I first moved here, I’ve had some, [00:04:35] like, struggles with addiction in a way in my life and I was trying [00:04:40] to kind of overcome those and I became obsessed with like reading books and [00:04:45] listening to, um, people like Les Brown and like Tony Robbins, [00:04:50] everybody.

[00:04:50] I’m, you know, ’em all and you are one of them. Um, but it’s. [00:04:55] It, it kind of just shifted my mindset and that was what helped me to kind of dig [00:05:00] out of this hole. And so I became just obsessed with trying [00:05:05] to make myself a better version of me, but also in a way that was like loving and giving [00:05:10] to others. It wasn’t just about me being great for me, for my purpose, you know?

[00:05:14] [00:05:15] And, uh, and then I fell into social media a couple years [00:05:20] ago. Um, we can go there. When did you

[00:05:22] Rory: start, when did you start really like [00:05:25] going, when did you start getting deliberate about creating content?

[00:05:28] Nick: Uh, it [00:05:30] was two years in a month ago, so, yeah. Yeah. So it was like two years and [00:05:35] you’ve gone

[00:05:35] Rory: to a million and I think when I first met you, even, you maybe had like 200,000 [00:05:40] followers on his Instagram.

[00:05:40] Yeah. Instagram or something. Remember

[00:05:41] 140,

[00:05:42] Nick: I remember. 140. Yeah. ’cause I,

[00:05:44] Rory: I was like, gosh, [00:05:45] this guy’s so cool. Uh, and, uh, you know, I’ve been doing this for 20 years and [00:05:50] I have like 70,000 followers, so I both admire you and hate you at the same [00:05:55] time. Yeah, but

[00:05:55] Nick: you’re, you’re great at everything in this world. [00:06:00] I found my, like, you know, my one path that works for me.

[00:06:03] Like, I can’t get on a [00:06:05] stage like you, that’s, wow, thank you for that. But I maybe one day,

[00:06:07] Rory: you know what [00:06:10] part, part of why I love what you do, and if, if you’re not following Nicholas, you gotta go [00:06:15] follow. By the way, do you go by Nick?

[00:06:16] Nick: Nick? You know me as Nick, but is my, you know, my, your handle

[00:06:19] Rory: [00:06:20] is Nicholas John.

[00:06:21] So I’m like, oh, okay. Um, but if you’re not following Nick, you need to, you [00:06:25] need to go check him out because it’s, it’s super inspiring and you’re, you don’t [00:06:30] create Christian content. Yeah. You’re a Christian who creates content. Same, same as me. Yeah, exactly. Um, I do create [00:06:35] a little bit of Christian content as, as do you.

[00:06:36] I love that. But, um, it’s [00:06:40] so uplifting and I think. In, in the world of social media, the [00:06:45] fastest way to go viral is to say something that I think is [00:06:50] polarizing. Yep. That is, um, sensationalized something that is [00:06:55] controversial. Uh, you know, news topics, celebrity [00:07:00] gossip, uh, political commentary is actually anything that evokes [00:07:05] anger we know is most likely to go viral.

[00:07:08] Mm-hmm. Then you [00:07:10] have the, like, you know, kind of pranks and, you know, funny [00:07:15] videos and memes and things like that, but you are truly in the space [00:07:20] of encouragement and insight, and yet [00:07:25] you have built a very viral following, uh, doing that. And, [00:07:30] and I just, I I love that. I, I, I think you showcase that this is the beautiful [00:07:35] part of social media

[00:07:36] Nick: mm-hmm.

[00:07:36] Rory: Where it’s like, I want to change lives. I want to help people, I wanna encourage people. It’s like [00:07:40] every one of your videos is. Tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of views, some [00:07:45] millions of views. And it’s not scantily clad people. It’s [00:07:50] not political stuff, it’s not celebrity stuff. It’s, it’s true insight and wisdom.

[00:07:53] And I, I just, I [00:07:55] I I love that. And my question on that is, I think there’s a lot of people who [00:08:00] try to share encouragement or wisdom. I would put myself in that category. Mm-hmm. [00:08:05] But we haven’t figured out how to get it to take. Mm-hmm. Why do you think it’s, [00:08:10] you’ve been able to get that to so much traction, so, so quickly?

[00:08:13] Nick: Yeah. I [00:08:15] don’t know exactly is the answer, but, um, you know, there are [00:08:20] some things that I think may add to it. I, [00:08:25] you know, I, one thing is I just am [00:08:30] trying to share things. I’m learning with people, you know, um, I’ve always [00:08:35] said. I don’t think I’m ever gonna be a guru. I, or like have the answers. ’cause I really [00:08:40] don’t, I don’t know if anyone knows why we’re here.

[00:08:42] Um, like I, that’s just kind of my, [00:08:45] there’s some quotes that say sentiment, like, you know, the more you learn, the more you [00:08:50] know, the less you realize, you know, and, and that’s really how I feel. [00:08:55] And so, you know, I don’t claim to have any answers. I just kind of [00:09:00] try and share what really helps me. And that’s really the only metric that I use is [00:09:05] it’s similar.

[00:09:05] It’s similar to what you do, it’s just things that have helped you along the way. [00:09:10] And, uh, just share ’em in a loving posture, um, [00:09:15] where we’re in it together. I think that that’s an important approach.

[00:09:18] Rory: Yeah, I see that it’s very [00:09:20] enduring. It’s, it’s very humble. It’s very honest. And it does feel like that where, [00:09:25] you know, you don’t have to be the guru.

[00:09:28] Yeah. You don’t even have to be the [00:09:30] guide. It’s more of like. It’s more of like, you’re the my partner. Mm-hmm. Like my buddy. Like, we’re going [00:09:35] on this journey together. Yep. Um, and that’s, I [00:09:40] think that in and of itself is an inspiring lesson for people. Yes. To be like, you don’t have to [00:09:45] be there on camera with all the answers.

[00:09:46] Nick: Yes.

[00:09:47] Rory: Uh, people can just like, follow your journey and they [00:09:50] go with you. And that’s what it’s like. There’s just like an army of people that are just kind of like going with you on the journey.

[00:09:54] Nick: Yeah, that’s [00:09:55] exactly it, man.

[00:09:56] Rory: It’s so how much do you read? Because one thing you do is you share a lot of [00:10:00] quotes.

[00:10:01] Yeah. Mm-hmm. A lot of other people’s, um, I mean many videos. You’re [00:10:05] like holding a book. Yep. Reading something. Um. And then you’re sharing like a piece [00:10:10] of that book. Yeah. How much are you, how much are you reading?

[00:10:12] Nick: Uh, I used to read a lot [00:10:15] more, like when I kind of first started this, you know, it’s, it’s similar to how [00:10:20] musicians like their first album is, like their whole life’s work, and then they have to make a second [00:10:25] album and it has to happen in like a year or whatever.

[00:10:26] Mm-hmm. Like I feel like when I started, it was just all the books I’d ever [00:10:30] read in my life were all just at my fingertips and I have highlights all over the place. So [00:10:35] I would just sift through those. And just to kind of give a, I guess, the backstory [00:10:40] on that so people understand how it started for me. Um, I was doing [00:10:45] video like pro professionally for people, so I started shooting [00:10:50] video.

[00:10:50] Interesting. And, um, I was also acting in commercials for the past like eight [00:10:55] years and, uh, mainly non-speaking commercials. So like, that was just kinda my [00:11:00] bread and butter. I just love ’em. They’re, they’re so fun. But I started doing video after [00:11:05] I did music because I felt like it was the same muscle. Like I just, I was very drawn to it and I [00:11:10] was just obsessed with, like, figuring out how to make it look good and.

[00:11:14] Uh, that [00:11:15] was, it just pulled me in. And so I was hired by a lot of people to help [00:11:20] their brands or help their podcasts or whatever, shoot their podcast. And I was kind of in [00:11:25] charge of social media. And so I learned about this thing called TikTok. And [00:11:30] I read up on like how the algorithm worked. And I was just so fascinated.

[00:11:33] I was like, this is the most genius idea [00:11:35] ever. Like, it’s gonna go to 200 people no matter what and how, based on how they [00:11:40] respond, based on if they like it or share it or save it, it’ll go to more and then it’ll go to more. And I was just like, [00:11:45] that is incredible. So I made a golf video, uh, about [00:11:50] how to hit out of the sand.

[00:11:51] Golf is my first love. It’s still my first love. Interesting. Besides my [00:11:55] wife and God. But, uh, it, it went viral, like [00:12:00] overnight, like a million and a half views. And I was just like, and I had zero followers. I just made a random account, huh. And it, and it [00:12:05] went crazy. And so I was just like fascinated by this.

[00:12:09] This [00:12:10] platform. And so I built a golf account for like three months just for fun. And it, like, every video [00:12:15] would go crazy. Wow. And I would, I would strip other people’s videos from YouTube, [00:12:20] chop ’em up, make ’em really digestible. Um, and then one day I [00:12:25] shared something. I learned about a book on another account account that I made personally.

[00:12:29] [00:12:30] And it was about the dopamine reward system. And it just like blew my mind when I read it. [00:12:35] And so I just shared it. And that one also went viral, like immediately. [00:12:40] And I just, I, that’s the moment where it clicked for me. Like, maybe people are interested [00:12:45] in the things that I like and so maybe I’ll just keep trying.

[00:12:48] And over the [00:12:50] course of that week, I kind of realized that I could share passages from other people’s books. [00:12:55] Um, ’cause I’ve never felt comfortable being the guy who has the answers. [00:13:00] Uh, I, I feel much more comfortable like sharing something and then talking [00:13:05] about why I agree with it. So, um, that. Was really [00:13:10] like it, it just started working like crazy on TikTok.

[00:13:12] But honestly I was scared to go on [00:13:15] Instagram ’cause all my high school friends were there. All my whole, my music following, like, [00:13:20] uh, not that it was big or anything, but it was like everyone knew me as this guy. It’s like, where’s this [00:13:25] book guy gonna come out of like, only my close friends knew. I loved to read and so I [00:13:30] actually made another account and just started posting all the videos that [00:13:35] I had made on TikTok for the past six months that were working really well over there.

[00:13:38] I started posting ’em on [00:13:40] Instagram and like nothing happened. I wanted to quit after like two weeks. Everything was getting [00:13:45] a hundred views, 200 views or whatever, but I did it every day for 30 [00:13:50] days and one just like randomly took off and uh, it never [00:13:55] stopped since then. But I’m kind of convinced that.

[00:13:59] I’ve come [00:14:00] to this assumption on my own. I’m always thinking like, what is, what do the social media platforms want and how do they [00:14:05] work behind the scenes? And I’m just making all this up, Uhhuh, but I think they put you into a bucket of like [00:14:10] creator or consumer. And I really believe that like each person, you’re saying that

[00:14:14] Rory: each [00:14:15] person, they, they kind of, the, the, the platform kind of tags you as like a creator or a [00:14:20] consumer.

[00:14:20] Nick: That’s my thought. Interesting. And so, like my other account had been mainly a consumer for [00:14:25] 10 years. Like I’d post once a month or whatever. And then, um, [00:14:30] I started this account fresh and I never stopped from day one. [00:14:35] And I really believed that that had an impact on something because I did it with one other friend and [00:14:40] his account blew up as well.

[00:14:41] So I really think there’s something to, you know, if [00:14:45] someone’s had no success on their social media or they wanna like rebrand themselves, I think it’s a [00:14:50] really liberating thing to just start fresh. Interesting. And everyone who [00:14:55] wants to be there. Or everyone who is there to follow you wants to be there.

[00:14:59] So just [00:15:00] like start fresh. It’s daunting, it’s scary, but like, just start,

[00:15:04] Rory: even today you [00:15:05] have a link to your like personal account. Yeah. This is, this is like my content and then [00:15:10] here’s like me personally. Yeah. You still have that. ’cause we get that question a lot of like, should I [00:15:15] start a new account? And you know, usually we tell people you can go either [00:15:20] way.

[00:15:20] Um, but we say make a decision on [00:15:25] who you wanna be and just start being that person today. Like no explanation, no [00:15:30] announcement. You just wake up one day. You, yesterday I was this person. Mm-hmm. And today going forward, [00:15:35] I am now this person. And you can come along for the ride or you can unfollow. Yep. [00:15:40] And that’s totally fine.

[00:15:41] But you don’t need to pander to all to try to serve [00:15:45] all the people who are following you. You decide this is who I want to be. And then you [00:15:50] plant, pivot and go. Now what’s interesting though is about the health of your actual account. [00:15:55] Yeah. Is to go, if I’ve been a consumer for years, maybe there is [00:16:00] power to just starting over and going, no, this is a new account.

[00:16:02] This is a creator account. Yeah. I’ve never thought of [00:16:05] that. Yeah. And I think never thought of that before today.

[00:16:07] Nick: And I think more importantly is that it’s [00:16:10] the psychological element because for you as a creator, yeah. For me, or for anyone who, [00:16:15] like if you’re gonna step into this version of yourself that you’ve wanted to do and you’ve held back for a [00:16:20] long time, like it’s really liberating to just start with a fresh [00:16:25] page and like.

[00:16:26] No one know, I didn’t tell anyone until I had a hundred [00:16:30] thousand followers. I still, most, a lot of my friends, they all find it on their own, but I never [00:16:35] tell anyone. And I did that on purpose ’cause I didn’t want anyone to kill my dreams. You [00:16:40] know? Like I wanted to just go and just be myself. And [00:16:45] if people found it, they found it.

[00:16:46] But

[00:16:47] Rory: you know what I, I love what you said there [00:16:50] about not telling your friends mm-hmm. Because you didn’t want anyone, anyone, to kill your dreams. Yeah. [00:16:55] Like, so often we feel like we need our friends and family to sign [00:17:00] off on something. Yeah. Like, almost like we need their permission and it’s such a better [00:17:05] strategy to just don’t tell anyone.

[00:17:07] Yeah. Just put your head down and [00:17:10] go like, go to work. Mm-hmm. Do the thing. Be the person you wanna be, create [00:17:15] the things that you wanna create, and then put your head down and don’t look up for a year and [00:17:20] then look up and like, oh, I. And now you go to people who say, look, this is who I am now. And they’re like, oh, [00:17:25] that’s amazing.

[00:17:25] I knew you could do it. Yeah. Right. Seriously. Um, so I wanna get, I [00:17:30] wanna talk about the algorithm a bit Yeah. Because I, I know, I know you have a deep understanding of that. Before we get into that, I wanna talk about the shot, [00:17:35] actually, because the video production of this Yeah. Uh, I think a lot of people, this is [00:17:40] me included, right?

[00:17:40] But before Brand Builders Group was really growing and, um, before we had [00:17:45] Chris, my guy Chris over here in Preston, and like our team, it’s like, I was [00:17:50] just there by myself trying to fumble with a camera and I was like, I don’t know how to use a camera. I don’t know. Mm-hmm. What’s the [00:17:55] right cable, the right cord?

[00:17:56] Like which microphone plugs into the camera? The [00:18:00] lighting, how much does that stuff matter? Or, or, or lemme ask you this way, [00:18:05] what matters and what doesn’t matter. Mm-hmm. Particularly when you’re kind of like [00:18:10] beginner or intermediate. Mm-hmm. Like what are the, the big things someone needs to know about [00:18:15] setting up the shot?

[00:18:16] Or, or, or does it even really matter?

[00:18:19] Nick: Yeah. [00:18:20] That’s, uh, my philosophy at least is to [00:18:25] keep it as simple as possible. And I think you would agree, but I, um, [00:18:30] I think, so I would do this with music. This is kind of a funny [00:18:35] example. Like, music sometimes is very hard for me to make. And, uh, it’s a [00:18:40] really challenging process and it’s, I would, I would think that in order to make a [00:18:45] song, I have to go buy something.

[00:18:46] Like I need to go buy a new keyboard or something that’ll make me write a [00:18:50] song, like some dumb thing like that. And I, I do that with working out. I’m [00:18:55] like,

[00:18:55] Rory: if I don’t feel like working out, I just go buy a water bottle or a new pair of shorts or new shoes. And I’m like, now I [00:19:00] wanna work out ’cause I wanna use my shoes.

[00:19:03] Nick: But I think in this, in the [00:19:05] creative world, like you can just over complicate it. And I’ll, I’ll [00:19:10] say, I don’t believe you need anything I shot. Everything on just an [00:19:15] iPhone for, until I had maybe a, a million followers or like a, like [00:19:20] 750,000 or something. I never used anything else. It was just an iPhone. But you [00:19:25] can, uh, I was just talking about this, we were just talking about this, uh, [00:19:30] that video and photo are the study of light.

[00:19:34] [00:19:35] And so it’s not the study of cameras. It’s like figuring out how does light [00:19:40] work and how does it react on your face and like what makes [00:19:45] your face pop? What, how do people light things in a profession? You can go on [00:19:50] YouTube and learn this stuff in like 30 minutes and uh, I just obsessed over [00:19:55] that when I was in video and so I just learned how to do it.

[00:19:58] But I just, I just [00:20:00] use a, like, if you’re just starting and you wanna do this, just find a window and put a [00:20:05] sheet over it and you’re good. Like, okay, let’s talk

[00:20:07] Rory: about that. ’cause I love that like natural [00:20:10] light. Why the sheet? Yeah, because why? The, why does the sheet matter?

[00:20:13] Nick: Yeah. ’cause lights, [00:20:15] it’s very harsh.

[00:20:16] And so if, if the sun is your source of light, it’s gonna be [00:20:20] very harsh. But if you diffuse it, like it’s come, it’s called diffusion. If it’s coming through [00:20:25] something else, it breaks up and the intensity doesn’t hit you as strong. So [00:20:30] like we have lights in the studio. If you just had the light blaring at me, my face would have all shadows.

[00:20:34] [00:20:35] All crazy. But it’s very soft right now because we have diffusers over the lights. Ah. And [00:20:40] so you need to have some something like, um, I guess [00:20:45] ring lights, they have like the plastic thing over the front. If it was just the lights hitting you, it’d be a lot harsher. [00:20:50] But yeah, just diffusing the sunlight.

[00:20:52] Like if you ever see a photo shoot when [00:20:55] you’re walking around Nashville, like a professional one. And I got lucky ’cause I got to see influencers in [00:21:00] the, influencers in the wild. Yeah. Yeah. All over Nashville. Um, and there’s someone [00:21:05] who’s holding what’s called like a scrim. Like it’s, it’s just. A big white [00:21:10] circle, and it’s, he’ll put it in between the sun and the subject so that it [00:21:15] just breaks the light and softens it on your skin, um, so that the shadows aren’t as [00:21:20] intense.

[00:21:20] Interesting. And so it’s very, uh, yeah. So simple.

[00:21:24] Rory: Sit in front of [00:21:25] a window. Put a sheet. Yeah. Put your iPhone up. Tripod. Yep. And just go.

[00:21:29] Nick: [00:21:30] Yeah, just go. And then you can, you can dive into, I mean, I obviously have an [00:21:35] understanding of like, editing software and like a little bit of coloring stuff that you [00:21:40] could do on YouTube, figure it out.

[00:21:41] But when you say

[00:21:41] Rory: coloring, you’re talking about like, again, like the, the, [00:21:45] the, almost like the lighting, the color balance of the video. Uh, yeah.

[00:21:48] Nick: So like, once I throw it into my computer, [00:21:50] how can I, um, just make some small tweaks on, on, uh, [00:21:55] video or on the video and the colors and stuff. And, um,

[00:21:59] Rory: what are you [00:22:00] thinking about when you edit a video?

[00:22:01] So like, you shoot the content. Well, first of all, tell, [00:22:05] tell me about your planning process. Like mm-hmm. What’s the, what’s the, so you get the [00:22:10] setup. Okay, so now we’ve got the setup, so now I gotta like, figure out what I’m gonna record. Yeah. And in your world, a lot of what you’re [00:22:15] doing is sharing your favorite quotes, so you’re just like, reading every day and going, mm-hmm.

[00:22:18] That’s a great one. I’m [00:22:20] gonna share that one.

[00:22:20] Nick: Yeah.

[00:22:21] Rory: Uh, is that pretty much all there is to it? Or like, do you plan out, okay, [00:22:25] here’s how I’m gonna present that and roll that out, and like, what’s your, what’s your thought process [00:22:30] as you go into planning the content?

[00:22:32] Nick: Yeah. I think, um, I learned from like [00:22:35] being a songwriter that, um, and you probably have this similar process [00:22:40] with writing speeches or whatnot, that you kind of just have like a place in your [00:22:45] phone or something where when you hear something you just jot it down.

[00:22:48] Yeah. Like in the same spot, inspiration, [00:22:50] whatever. Um, or like favorite quote or when I’m reading, write the quote there, put it in the [00:22:55] note app or whatever. Um, so that you’re kind of gathering at all times. You gotta [00:23:00] keep the gathering always going. Uh. But there’s not really [00:23:05] a lot of prep. I would say my, it’s, it’s changed a lot over time because at [00:23:10] first, you know, I, it wasn’t like [00:23:15] I was just doing this and it was working, and so it was like, that was whenever I had days off.[00:23:20]

[00:23:20] Like I would just do that. So it was, it wasn’t, uh, like I wasn’t trying to add [00:23:25] on other things. Right. Like I am right now, like podcast and maybe write a book. Who knows? Like all these [00:23:30] things that I’m trying to start on top of it now. It’s kind of like

[00:23:32] Rory: becoming a profession. Yes, exactly. It was just kind of a [00:23:35] hobby at It’s just a hobby.

[00:23:35] Hobby.

[00:23:36] Nick: Yes, exactly.

[00:23:37] Rory: Which makes me feel even more like crap, by the way, because, [00:23:40] um, it’s been my profession for some time and I’ve struggl I struggle so [00:23:45] much with social media. I always have. Yeah. It’s tough. Like I’ve never, it’s just never been my jam. Mm-hmm. Like, put me on a stage, no [00:23:50] problem. Put me, you know, write a book.

[00:23:52] No problem. Come up with framers. But like, there’s something about social media [00:23:55] and maybe it’s just like a mental block that I’ve had mm-hmm. Where it’s just like, I just not. [00:24:00] You know, I just don’t intuitively kind of, kind of create, and that’s part of why I’m fascinated by, by people [00:24:05] who, who do. But so, so anyways, you’re, you’re just kind of doing it on the fly, A hobby [00:24:10] you gather.

[00:24:10] Nick: Mm-hmm.

[00:24:11] Rory: Then you set up your thing, you hit record, and you’re just kinda like teaching from the [00:24:15] heart. Here’s something I learned today that was valuable.

[00:24:17] Nick: Yeah. I just wing it and, uh, [00:24:20] sometimes I’ll do multiple takes or whatever. And is anybody with you or do No. [00:24:25] You do it by yourself? Yeah. I do it by myself.

[00:24:26] I think that that’s important, honestly, I think it’s hard to do with, with [00:24:30] someone there. And I think, uh, I think especially when

[00:24:31] Rory: you’re beginning Yeah, it is. You really have to get comfortable [00:24:35] with yourself and the camera before you’re Okay. Like having a bunch of people in the room. Yeah. Like [00:24:40] looking at you.

[00:24:40] And I’ll

[00:24:40] Nick: also say something that might be a benefit I [00:24:45] hadn’t really thought of until now is, you know, on an iPhone, you’re looking at yourself [00:24:50] versus a camera, you’re staring into the lens. Mm-hmm. Like, it’s kind of nice to like [00:24:55] see. Because I think, uh, you know, one of the superpowers of a lot of creative people, [00:25:00] and I’ve seen you do it with an audience, like you’re in empathetic, like you can feel what you’re [00:25:05] making them feel in a way.

[00:25:06] Mm-hmm. I think I’m right about that. Mm-hmm. And like, [00:25:10] I can feel by watching myself deliver the line if it was a good or not. [00:25:15] Um, and I can see how it’s gonna be perceived like instantly instead of having to [00:25:20] throw it into an editor. And then it’s like, do I really wanna film it again? Not really. Um, [00:25:25] I can just go, I just go until I feel like I crushed it and then it’s like ne next one [00:25:30] if I’m, I used to never batch content.

[00:25:33] I literally used to do one every [00:25:35] morning and that was like my rhythm. But, um, recently I’ve, I’ve found benefit in [00:25:40] batching stuff ’cause I’m just doing so much other stuff. Do you change your outfit when you batch? Uh, sometimes. Yeah. Yeah. [00:25:45] Yeah.

[00:25:45] Rory: Every couple videos you do it? Yeah. Yeah. Is uh, okay, so you shoot it.[00:25:50]

[00:25:50] Now tell me about the editing process. Mm-hmm. What. What, where, what are you using [00:25:55] to edit? Mm-hmm. When do you edit the videos? What are you [00:26:00] looking for in the video to edit? Like how do you, what’s your thought process there?

[00:26:04] Nick: [00:26:05] Uh, yeah. Da Vinci Resolve is what I edit in. It’s free if anyone wants to use it.

[00:26:09] It’s an [00:26:10] amazing editing software like Adobe Premiere, but it’s free. Uh, it’s taken over the [00:26:15] industry kind of. Um, and then the, the [00:26:20] thought is really, it’s that empathy thing again. Like I, I really just [00:26:25] try to use my own internal like compass of [00:26:30] do I feel something when I watch this? Or like, does this mean anything to me?

[00:26:33] That’s all, [00:26:35] that’s the only metric I have to use. And so if it feels like I, there’s [00:26:40] plenty of videos that I shoot and I’m like, that’s, I’m not posting that. Like, that’s not good enough. Um, [00:26:45] because I just want to, I really believe that like. [00:26:50] You gotta be like a trusted source and like people can lose that trust [00:26:55] really quickly on social, I think.

[00:26:57] And, uh, especially [00:27:00] with, you know, brand deals and whatnot, you gotta be very careful about that. But, uh, [00:27:05] yeah, it’s just the thought of like, is this valuable to someone else? And would this [00:27:10] hit home if I needed to hear it, you know, and did I say the right words? Could I have done it [00:27:15] better? Uh, but it’s, it’s pretty simple, you know, it’s, I just chop it up and, [00:27:20] you know, I’ll cut out some breaths if I want.

[00:27:22] Like, I try to, I try to make it as [00:27:25] engageable as possible. Like, I know my view on things is like everyone is [00:27:30] very selfish when they’re scrolling. Like we all are naturally, we just wanna be [00:27:35] entertained and, um, it needs to be. To the point [00:27:40] very fast. It ne and that’s the annoying part about the algorithm, and that’s how it’s so much different than [00:27:45] like, public speaking, I would imagine.

[00:27:46] But, um, it needs to, I need to know what [00:27:50] I’m gonna get out of this or what I’m diving into very quickly, like within the first three seconds. [00:27:55] So yeah. I want to come back. So I wanna

[00:27:56] Rory: talk about the first three seconds, but, uh, I’m gonna share a quote with you. Yeah. [00:28:00] This is not one of mine, but this is one of my favorite quotes, and [00:28:05] I really think you’re spot on about this because this, this is in the, this is how we [00:28:10] teach public speaking.

[00:28:10] Hmm. Right. It’s one of the, it’s the same kind of concept, but the, the [00:28:15] quote is from Robert Frost and he said, no tears in the writer, [00:28:20] no tears in the reader.

[00:28:21] Nick: Hmm.

[00:28:22] Rory: Right. That’s cool. Basically, like if [00:28:25] you are not feeling mm-hmm. The emotion when you are delivering [00:28:30] that piece of content, then the audience is not going to feel it [00:28:35] when they’re receiving.

[00:28:36] That piece of content that’s real. Right? And so he’s talking about it as a [00:28:40] writer. I understand that as a speaker, and now I’m hearing you like, that’s clicking for me in my head [00:28:45] to kind of do the same thing where it’s like, oh, you’re the next generation of, like, it’s just [00:28:50] the, the next generation of that is doing it through the camera of, of, and then you’re [00:28:55] watching yourself back when you’re editing going, did I feel something?

[00:28:58] Mm-hmm. That’s [00:29:00] powerful.

[00:29:00] Nick: Yeah.

[00:29:00] Rory: I love that. I love that. So talk to me about the first three seconds. What, what are the [00:29:05] mistakes? What needs to happen in the first three seconds and why is it [00:29:10] important and what do people do wrong mm-hmm. That they should stop [00:29:15] doing? Like in, in those first three seconds? What needs to happen?

[00:29:18] Nick: Yeah. [00:29:20] You know, I don’t have the for sure answer on this. Obviously. I only know what works for me. I [00:29:25] think, um, you know, I think I kind of, I start mine off [00:29:30] very similar, very often, like it’s like. Either I really like this quote or this quote, [00:29:35] hit me, or, I really love this passage because I’m giving you a sense of, you know, [00:29:40] what I’m about to present to you in a way.

[00:29:42] And, um, like I’ve, [00:29:45] I remember seeing one of your posts where it’s like, uh, I think it was like, I’ve been sober for [00:29:50] seven years, like right away. Mm-hmm. And that’s, that’s super engaging immediately. [00:29:55] Um, I think a lot of people, a lot of people like introduce themselves, which I don’t [00:30:00] think is necessary at all.

[00:30:01] Like, you definitely don’t need to do that. Um, I would just [00:30:05] say get to the, like, if I’m only gonna hear 10 seconds, how can [00:30:10] I like learn part of or learn the lesson as quick as possible? Um, [00:30:15] and so, yeah, I think that it’s just like, bring the meat to the front and then [00:30:20] explain later. Uh, that’s what I do at least.

[00:30:23] Rory: Yeah. That’s good. I that like, [00:30:25] I like that it’s basically like, deliver. The thing and then unpack it. Mm-hmm. [00:30:30] Sort of after, you know, I’ve struggled with this ’cause everyone’s like, you gotta have a hook. You gotta have a hook. But I’m like, well, what is exactly [00:30:35] is a hook. Yeah. No one seems to be able to define it.

[00:30:38] So I’m gonna share with you what my [00:30:40] premise is. Yeah. After, like, I love it. Years of struggling this, and you tell me, I [00:30:45] think what a hook is, is telling the audience what you’re about to tell them. [00:30:50]

[00:30:50] Nick: Mm-hmm.

[00:30:50] Rory: Right? So like, you’re doing that, you’re like, yeah, here’s a quote that really hit me true. Or like, [00:30:55] you know, if you’re feeling lonely, you gotta listen to this.

[00:30:57] Yep. Right. It’s like you’re telling them [00:31:00] what you’re about to tell them. Yeah. And then you, and then you tell them what, [00:31:05] what it is like, to your point about, then you kind of like un unpack it. But the, the other thing I think that [00:31:10] really works so well with your videos in particular. That also lines up with the algorithm [00:31:15] is the reveal.

[00:31:16] There’s a, there’s a formula for going viral that [00:31:20] is like, you hook ’em with something and then I want to, I, I wanna like sort of [00:31:25] see the finish thing, or I want to know a glimpse of where we’re going. But then what keeps me [00:31:30] watching is like slowly revealing it. Mm-hmm. And there’s a, there’s a natural sense of [00:31:35] that, uh, with what you do.

[00:31:37] And, uh, you, you kind of are [00:31:40] like, okay, here’s what we’re gonna talk about. And then it, and it, it’s like unwrapping. It’s almost like [00:31:45] you, you’re almost like the, the kids, the, like the Ryan’s toy review who like unwrap a [00:31:50] thing. Mm-hmm. That’s almost like what your videos are. It’s like you’re, you’re unwrapping an [00:31:55] idea, like one nugget of wisdom.

[00:31:56] Wow. I like that. That’s, that’s what it, that’s what it feels like. Yeah. That’s what it [00:32:00] feels like.

[00:32:00] Nick: That’s cool. I, while you were talking, another thing that hit me is I think a [00:32:05] hook. Can also just be enthusiasm. Like it can be an emotion. [00:32:10] So like, you know, if someone’s crying at the start of a video, you wanna know why.

[00:32:14] [00:32:15] Or if someone’s really excited, like I, I try to, the reason I try to remove all the [00:32:20] barriers that I have from filming is ’cause I want to capture it when it’s happening. So, like, [00:32:25] if I, if I read, am reading a book and like something hits [00:32:30] me, I want to go film that immediately. Mm. Because I want the enthusiasm of like, me [00:32:35] finding it captured.

[00:32:36] I don’t wanna be faking it. And so, you know, so sometimes [00:32:40] I, you know, have to kind of refine that when I’m reading it again. But, [00:32:45] uh, capture enthusiasm whenever you can or like capture an emotion whenever you can. ’cause I [00:32:50] think that’s just as much of a hook.

[00:32:51] Rory: Gosh, that’s so good, dude. But, and, and, and I [00:32:55] always use the thing of like documenting, like, uh, I forget what you call cataloging or [00:33:00] capturing or, okay.

[00:33:00] Yeah. You know, of like, oh, I wanna, I wanna share that idea. But I think I’m gonna [00:33:05] walk out of this interview and do something different as a result of hearing you. Mm-hmm. [00:33:10] That I’ve never done before. And what that is, is the moment I have the [00:33:15] inspiration Yeah. I’m gonna freaking record it. Do it. I’m not gonna edit it ’cause I don’t have time to edit it.[00:33:20]

[00:33:20] Right. You don’t have time to edit it and post the caption and push the stupid hashtag and like, [00:33:25] uh, schedule it and what’s the title and put on the cap. Like, I don’t have 20 minutes, but [00:33:30] I am going to do that as a result of what you just said because it is about that emotion. Yep. It’s [00:33:35] about, I mean this is, you know, if I had to boil the key to the, the secret to [00:33:40] professional speaking is to move the audience emotionally.

[00:33:44] Nick: Hmm.

[00:33:44] Rory: [00:33:45] That’s what you gotta do. You stand on that stage and you go, what’s the difference between those seven boring presenters? [00:33:50] And the one person that comes out and gets the standing ovation and lights the room up, they created an [00:33:55] emotional experience for the audience. But that it has to happen in that moment.

[00:33:59] [00:34:00] Dude, that’s gonna be huge. I love that. That’s gonna be huge for me to just go. Record it in the [00:34:05] moment. Yes. You feel

[00:34:06] Nick: it? Yes. That’s good. Dude, that’s, uh, thank you. I, I, [00:34:10] I just have to say like, you’re incredible at doing that on stages. [00:34:15] Like it is when I saw you at Lewis Howell’s event, like I was mind blown [00:34:20] and I was just like, I want to be that guy.

[00:34:23] I wanna be Rory [00:34:25] Vaden, and so I just gotta get your flowers in that way. Thank you. But I think that if you can capture that, [00:34:30] like, um, and I love that you said just capture it. Don’t worry about the rest. [00:34:35] Like, that’s what I do as well. I, I make it separate moments. Like if I’m [00:34:40] filming, that’s like a day, like I’m not gonna go do the whole process, um, [00:34:45] if I’m doing multiple videos or whatever, but I separate the capturing and the editing, you know, and you [00:34:50] have some guys that can help you with editing as well.

[00:34:51] So that. Makes it even better. But you know, the, the [00:34:55] thing I would say when you capture is just personally, I [00:35:00] do cinematic mode. And then just find like a place where your light just [00:35:05] spin in circles until your light on your face looks the best. It’s so easy. Like you do

[00:35:09] Rory: [00:35:10] cinematic mode on your phone.

[00:35:10] Nick: Yeah.

[00:35:11] Rory: Just that little setting at the bottom.

[00:35:13] Nick: Yeah.

[00:35:14] Rory: And that, oh [00:35:15] dude, I’m like, what, what a, what a simple tip. How am I not doing this? [00:35:20] So you just like put it in selfie mode. Yeah. And put on cinematic.

[00:35:23] Nick: Yeah. [00:35:25]

[00:35:25] Rory: That’s Why am I not doing this? That’s such a great little, now you are. That’s such a great little tip. [00:35:30] I mean, ’cause the iPhones are like, they’re incredible.

[00:35:32] Amazing, amazing. So you just, just use that. [00:35:35] But I, but I even above all of that, it’s like [00:35:40] ultimately, and I think as AI takes over, yeah. More and more people are going to be [00:35:45] seeking the human experience, the human connection. Yeah. Like the [00:35:50] human authenticity. Uh, I told you this is the first ever in person interview.[00:35:55]

[00:35:55] Mm-hmm. And it’s like totally different. This is totally different than doing it over zoom. Like it’s, it’s [00:36:00] so special and wonderful and to go, how can I decrease the amount [00:36:05] of time between when I experience the feeling or [00:36:10] have the idea and I hit record? Mm-hmm. Like that. If we can [00:36:15] shorten that, that time between those two, you capture the, [00:36:20] the human essence.

[00:36:21] Mm-hmm. Where it’s just like, you can’t act it out. You can’t recreate [00:36:25] it quite in quite the way that like, when you just, you experience it. Yeah. So I [00:36:30] love that. I love that cinematic mode. Duh. Like that’s super helpful. I think it’s just, it [00:36:35] gives a lot me a lot. It gives people like me and I think people watching like a lot of [00:36:40] confidence to have somebody like you go Yeah.

[00:36:41] Just like use cinematic mode. Yes. Like just use the free video [00:36:45] editor. Like, just use your iPhone, just use a window. Um, because there is something [00:36:50] about. We overcomplicate it thinking that because your results are so much different than [00:36:55] ours online mm-hmm. That like, your process must be [00:37:00] so much different, or the equipment is so much different.

[00:37:03] And in some ways it is, but [00:37:05] in a lot of ways it’s not. It’s very simple. It sounds, it’s like a lot of very simple things.

[00:37:08] Nick: Yeah, it is. And I, [00:37:10] I really believed you just need to be excited about what you’re sharing. Like that’s the main, [00:37:15] whatever it is. If you’re gonna share about cooking or just follow your, as far as social media creators [00:37:20] go, like, you just gotta follow your inspiration.

[00:37:23] It’s so simple, but it’s like, you [00:37:25] gotta be excited about it. You gotta be the, the reason, if you unpack [00:37:30] everybody in the social media space, like they are curators of [00:37:35] whatever knowledge they’re obsessed with, like Dr. Huberman is. Mm-hmm. He’s just the [00:37:40] most obsessed with science of all of us. So he brings us the best stuff from science.

[00:37:44] Like [00:37:45] I am one of the most obsessed with books, so I bring you the best stuff from books. Everyone’s [00:37:50] just a, like, you gotta go follow your obsession. ’cause if you’re not obsessed with it, you’re not gonna have enough [00:37:55] content to post. Like I could read or whatever all day. Um, and so it’s never [00:38:00] gonna stop for me.

[00:38:00] Like I feel like there’s no, I never worry about it stopping because [00:38:05] I just have endless ideas. ’cause it’s, it’s what I’m fascinated by. Um, so [00:38:10] that’s another tip.

[00:38:10] Rory: We, I love that because again, everybody wants to know like, how do you use [00:38:15] ai? Like, what do you use in ai? And I’m going, there’s a lot of the process stuff you can do.

[00:38:19] [00:38:20] Mm-hmm. But even the AI of like, have AI write your script and plan your [00:38:25] content, it’s like, okay, sure that can fill the thing, but [00:38:30] that will never perform in the way of when you have a human experience and something [00:38:35] lights you up. And you go, I have to just capture this. Yeah. And I think that [00:38:40] will, with the proliferation of AI and, you know, video avatars taking [00:38:45] over, it’s just like, I don’t even have to record.

[00:38:46] I can just type a prompt into a thing and like it’ll spit it out. [00:38:50] But that won’t replace like, the thing. I think that this [00:38:55] will separate people even more. Mm-hmm. As, as AI takes off is, is the human part. Um, [00:39:00] real quick, how, how much time are you spending on [00:39:05] this? So you talked a little bit about this early, like when you first started out, you were kind of like shooting a [00:39:10] video every day.

[00:39:11] Now you’re batching. Can you just give us an idea [00:39:15] of, ’cause you, you kind of post, like, you only post like a couple times a day or once a [00:39:20] day.

[00:39:20] Nick: Once a day, yeah. Or you

[00:39:21] Rory: post once a day. Yep. So that flies in the face of the whole like, [00:39:25] post five times every hour. And like, like you really don’t do that. Mm-hmm.

[00:39:29] Um, [00:39:30] so what’s the time? Commitment that you’ve made, like when you started compared to [00:39:35] like where you’re at now?

[00:39:36] Nick: Uh, it’s, it’s changed. I, I would say when I first [00:39:40] started, it was probably eight to 10 every day [00:39:45] I was doing one, but that’s it. But I mean,

[00:39:47] Rory: so like two hours Yeah. To do the whole thing. To [00:39:50] ideate, set up the camera.

[00:39:51] Yeah. Do a few takes, edit it. And

[00:39:53] Nick: that’s a, that’s a long [00:39:55] suggestion. I would say an hour and a half max. But yeah, to edit it as well. So, [00:40:00] but you know, like I said, the, the inspiration and the, [00:40:05] the reading and that stuff, like, that’s just my natural obsession. So you could count that as work, you [00:40:10] know, the, the searching for answers and whatnot.

[00:40:12] So I don’t know how much of that [00:40:15] is considered working on it, but these days, like. I have to [00:40:20] go on, I’m going on a friend’s trip tomorrow and uh, I’m gonna be gone for like five [00:40:25] days. So what I did is I took like two days of filming from eight to [00:40:30] 10:00 AM eight to 10:00 AM and then I edited for probably four hours.

[00:40:34] So that’s like [00:40:35] eight hours and I have like eight posts or whatever. They’re all scheduled. I don’t have to like even [00:40:40] look at my phone for the next five days.

[00:40:41] Rory: So you’re still editing everything yourself? [00:40:45] Yeah. Posting everything yourself. Yeah. Um, reply to all the comments yourself, [00:40:50] like,

[00:40:50] Nick: yeah, I don’t really do that anymore.

[00:40:51] I mean some, but it’s, I’ve definitely had [00:40:55] to decide what is more important, like being present or [00:41:00] engaging in that all the time. You know, at first it’s really, it’s obviously very exciting to, [00:41:05] exciting to be validated by other humans and like, you know, have videos go crazy or [00:41:10] whatever, but just like anything, like the excitement wears off of that feeling [00:41:15] and uh, so I kind of just try to really.

[00:41:18] Separate myself [00:41:20] from my phone when I can, because I don’t want to get caught up in that. Like, you know, my wife’s really [00:41:25] good about, um, asking me to be present with her at times, and it’s really [00:41:30] helpful for me to have that. But, but yes, doing everything by myself. I think about [00:41:35] outsourcing it at this point, but I don’t know, I, it’s, it’s [00:41:40] hard for me to say.

[00:41:41] Because I, I’m so specific on like, what makes me feel something, and that’s [00:41:45] the only metric I’m using. It’s like, would that person have the same metric of like when they’re editing [00:41:50] and then Right. Uh, you know, the caption and then the, the [00:41:55] song a lot of times is a big part for me too.

[00:41:57] Rory: Oh, selecting the track that’s like underneath it.

[00:41:59] Mm-hmm. [00:42:00] Yeah. That’s, so you spend time, so this is like a 90 minute process for one [00:42:05] 62nd clip that you post. Yep. Yeah. I mean, that’s, that’s valuable for people to know. Yeah. Like, you’re not [00:42:10] just like throwing it up there. No, no. I mean, you’re kind of winging it a little bit [00:42:15] on the recording. Yes. But you’re not winging, you’re not just winging this

[00:42:18] Nick: Yes.

[00:42:18] The recording. [00:42:20] You need to remove the barrier of needing it to be perfect and just keep going, keep going. [00:42:25] Like, do it a couple times. Do it three times. Do it four times and then you can chop it up [00:42:30] however you need to. But, um, yes. After the fact, you kind of, you [00:42:35] obviously gotta be intentional about it, but yeah.

[00:42:37] Rory: Okay. So that becomes a lot of [00:42:40] time. Mm-hmm. Yeah. How do you make money?

[00:42:42] Nick: Yeah, great question. I mean, because it’s like, I’m still trying to figure that [00:42:45] out. That’s why I’m here to hang out with you. I mean, yeah, like, well, [00:42:50]

[00:42:50] Rory: I mean, to whatever extent you can share, because I think, yeah. There’s also a thing that people go, oh, [00:42:55] you have million, 2 million followers.

[00:42:57] Like, yep. You must be flying private jets and [00:43:00] like do it doing the thing. So like give us a little insight into what actually [00:43:05] produces money and what doesn’t really make money and like mm-hmm. How do you find your way [00:43:10] there as a creator? Because it starts to, you know, you have an audience and now it’s kinda like you sort of [00:43:15] created an obligation to serve them.

[00:43:16] Not that you have to, but it’s like you gotta hit the schedule every day. Mm-hmm. [00:43:20] Otherwise they forget about you. Mm-hmm. But like, no one’s paying you there to, paying you to be there and [00:43:25] do it, so you gotta do it, but then like, you gotta feed your family.

[00:43:28] Nick: Yep. I still fly [00:43:30] Southwest, so we’re doing that. Um, but, uh, so yeah, so I’ve [00:43:35] taken a little bit of a different approach to it where.

[00:43:37] Um, so I still have never taken a brand [00:43:40] deal, which is, uh, pretty cool. And I’m, you know, I’m, I’m proud of that in a way [00:43:45] because, you know, I heard an Alex Hormoze quote that was like, if you can just provide value for [00:43:50] two years without asking for anything in return, like you’ll never have to work again in your life.

[00:43:54] And [00:43:55] so I just took that to heart and I just went for it. And, uh, [00:44:00] I, I created a couple different avenues of revenue. One, [00:44:05] my main one is actually this journal that I created to help people connect with [00:44:10] Jesus. It’s pretty cool. Hmm. Um, it’s, it’s basically like four [00:44:15] questions in the morning, three questions at night, just to kind of set an intention for the day.

[00:44:19] How can you show [00:44:20] up more like Jesus? What are three things you, you’re praying for today? Three things you’re grateful for. [00:44:25] Um, and I’ve had a lot of success with that on, on Amazon and TikTok. And then

[00:44:29] Rory: so [00:44:30] people, so your fan base, you let ’em know that every once in a while, Hey, I’ve got this, I’ve got a journal.[00:44:35]

[00:44:35] People pop over, they buy it, and then you’re just making royalties or whatever. Now, when you sell it on [00:44:40] TikTok, you’re fulfilling it directly, so you’re Yep. You’re, whatever your wholesale, whatever the cost of [00:44:45] goods are, you keep the rest. Yeah. And then on Amazon, you get whatever the percentage is after they take their [00:44:50] cut.

[00:44:50] Nick: Yep, exactly. So it’s like self-publishing essentially. Okay. Um, and so that’s, that’s [00:44:55] one source. And then, uh, I’ve got a card game coming out in like a month. [00:45:00] That’s been a wild, interesting. Uh, it’s awesome. But the man, first thing I’ve ever [00:45:05] bought from China, bad timing for me. Yeah. Um, but I think, I think we’ll be all right on the [00:45:10] terrace.

[00:45:10] We’ll see. But, uh, and then I made a course actually [00:45:15] on social media for Impact. So like my, uh, you know, it was, it was the idea of how can [00:45:20] you use social media for good uhhuh? Um, and then it’s all the tips and tricks that, you know, [00:45:25] how I edit, how I, um, how I do everything basically, you know, it’s, it, [00:45:30] you can see it all.

[00:45:30] So it’s about like three hours of content. And so, and

[00:45:33] Rory: you just share that. So you [00:45:35] just kind of drop that in your captions? A video every once in a while. Yeah. In your stories maybe?

[00:45:39] Nick: [00:45:40] Yeah, yeah. Uh, I have like a website maybe in my stories. I am very [00:45:45] like, what’s the website? Uh, Nicholas john.co. Yeah.

[00:45:48] Rory: And then you just click on courses or whatever.

[00:45:49] [00:45:50] Yep. Yeah. Interesting.

[00:45:51] Nick: I’m very bad at asking for money or, [00:45:55] uh, at promoting something that involves money. Like it’s still something I have to over. I know. That’s, I [00:46:00] had to stop to

Ep 587: Who First Strategy | Vincent Phamvan Recap

[00:00:00] AJ: It’s what, not who, in a world [00:00:05] where marketing strategists and marketing agencies [00:00:10] are talking about where to spend on time online and where do you put your paid [00:00:15] traffic behind, and what ads should you be doing? And, you know, how quickly you should be [00:00:20] cutting your camera and how many minutes it should be and what are the initial statements.[00:00:25]

[00:00:25] That you should stay and how many CTA should you have in a world [00:00:30] full of that? That’s a lot of the, what What I am encouraging you to [00:00:35] do as you build your personal brand is to have a who first [00:00:40] strategy, not a where first strategy and not a what First strategy. See a [00:00:45] what? First strategy is what should I be doing?

[00:00:49] What should [00:00:50] I be posting? What, you know, different [00:00:55] medium. Should I be on? What platform should I be on? It’s a what focused [00:01:00] strategy. And then there’s the where, right? There’s, Hey, where should I spend my [00:01:05] time online? Where should I invest my time, money, and re resources? [00:01:10] Right? Where should I go to find, you know, x, y, and z [00:01:15] content or audiences or offers?

[00:01:16] Where should I go to learn? There’s a lot of what. [00:01:20] And there’s a lot of wear. In the world of marketing, digital marketing today, [00:01:25] and as you build your personal brand, what I’m encouraging you to do is to not ignore those things. [00:01:30] They just come second or third to the most [00:01:35] important strategy, which is who.

[00:01:38] So let’s talk about the who for a second. [00:01:40] What is a who first strategy? A who First strategy. [00:01:45] Is, who are you trying to reach? Who is the person [00:01:50] that you feel called to serve in this world with your message? Because that’s what you’re doing this [00:01:55] for after all, right? You’re not doing all of this content creation.

[00:01:58] You’re not sitting in a [00:02:00] chair behind a camera on a day like today, as I am right now, just so I can [00:02:05] work the algorithm. I’m not doing it just to get likes and comments. I’m not doing it [00:02:10] just for conversion purposes. I’m doing it because I believe. That there are [00:02:15] messages that need to be shared because there are messages that need to be heard [00:02:20] and they can only be shared by certain individuals and they can only be heard by certain individuals [00:02:25] to help them change their life.

[00:02:27] I believe that people [00:02:30] not platforms have the ability to change lives. And [00:02:35] sometimes it’s a, a, a simple act of kindness. Sometimes it’s a [00:02:40] quote that you just needed to hear in that right moment. Sometimes it’s you showing up and being [00:02:45] vulnerable and sharing the hard parts of your story so that other people know that they’re not alone, [00:02:50] that there are other people like them who have felt that way, been through what they’ve been through, and that there [00:02:55] is light at the end of the tunnel.

[00:02:57] Right. There is joy on the other side [00:03:00] that that. Is a who first strategy that is going, Hey, I [00:03:05] have this calling on my heart for a reason. And we believe that that reason is [00:03:10] because there is someone else out there who needs you. That [00:03:15] is the who that I’m talking about. And if you get the who right in a who for [00:03:20] strategy, the what and the where, become increasingly more clear.[00:03:25]

[00:03:25] Because here’s what I’m telling you, if you know. Exactly [00:03:30] who you’re trying to reach. Then you know what they need to hear. [00:03:35] You know, what questions they need answered, you know, what titles would [00:03:40] attract them, you know, what ads they would click on, right? So all those other [00:03:45] things, I’m not saying they’re not important, and the digital ecosystem that we live in today, I, I think they’re [00:03:50] vital.

[00:03:50] I think they’re necessary. They’re just not first. It’s a who [00:03:55] strategy first to go. Who needs this message and [00:04:00] how do they need to hear it, and what platform do they need to hear it on? [00:04:05] And where do I need to be so they can hear it? What and where are [00:04:10] subservient to the who, but the more clear that you get on the who, such [00:04:15] as what gender are they?

[00:04:16] What age are they? What socioeconomic status are [00:04:20] they? What geography do they live in? What are their dreams? What are their fears? What [00:04:25] are their goals? What questions? Keep them up at night? What are their fears? Right? What? What are [00:04:30] their limiting beliefs? Right. What are they trying to achieve? What have they been through that [00:04:35] they’re too afraid to tell anyone?

[00:04:36] What are the dreams that feel so big and so impossible that they’re embarrassed to [00:04:40] admit them? What questions do they have that they never ask because they’re afraid they’ll look stupid, [00:04:45] right? That is your who. It’s not just how much money [00:04:50] do they make and what titles do they have. Demographics are important.

[00:04:52] They’re necessary, but the [00:04:55] psychographics of your who are equally as important. And I’ll tell you this, [00:05:00] a who first strategy should be where you spend the most time. Because if [00:05:05] you spend the most foundational time on building out this perfect avatar, this [00:05:10] ideal person, not persons, not people, but person, if [00:05:15] you build that out, if there’s one, there’s likely more than one.

[00:05:19] But the [00:05:20] more that you know the heart and the mind behind the person, the who that you’re going [00:05:25] after, everything else comes into focus, I. The other things are [00:05:30] unclear when your who is unclear. But the more [00:05:35] clarity you have on the who, the easier it is to answer all of the what [00:05:40] questions and the where questions.

[00:05:41] Because you know where they spend on time, time online, you know [00:05:45] what platforms they visit, you know how often they visit those platforms and how long they stay on their [00:05:50] platforms that you know, if they like to read versus watch, you know, if they like to watch versus [00:05:55] listen, you know, if they’re more into podcasts versus short form content.

[00:05:59] You know, all those [00:06:00] things when you spend the time necessary, I. To get intimately [00:06:05] acquainted with the who, and here’s the good news for you. Most [00:06:10] of us, we already know the who intimately because the who is the [00:06:15] person that we used to be. And it’s the reason why that you are most [00:06:20] powerfully positioned to serve the person you once were.

[00:06:23] Because you know what it’s like to be [00:06:25] you. You know what it’s like to have those questions, those fears, those dreams, [00:06:30] and. You know what it’s like on the other side, right? You didn’t get [00:06:35] to where you are today and you don’t have this calling on your life, and you don’t have this message in your heart for [00:06:40] yourself.

[00:06:40] You have it so that you can go back and share it with all the people that [00:06:45] need to hear it where they are today, where you were a year ago, or five years ago, or 10 years, or even 20 [00:06:50] years ago, or maybe even the person that you were yesterday. You [00:06:55] have that calling. Right that pull in your heart because there is someone else who is [00:07:00] calling to you.

[00:07:01] That is a hoofer strategy and it’s the part that we [00:07:05] often wanna skip over. We wanna answer the fill in the blanks and we wanna move on, [00:07:10] but everything else is dependent on a hoofer strategy. So if you spend the [00:07:15] right time figuring out who, who is my audience? Who is my avatar, who is my [00:07:20] person? The what comes into focus and the where becomes obvious, but the [00:07:25] who has to come first.

Ep 586: Leveraging Digital Marketing, AI, and Personal Brand Apps for Brand Growth | Vincent Phamvan

[00:00:00] Welcome to the Influential Personal Brand podcast. Today’s one of those special [00:00:05] days where I get to introduce a good friend, and not only a friend, but [00:00:10] also, uh, someone that we are a client of. And so, uh, I’m so excited to have you [00:00:15] on the show today, Vincent, and before I formally introduce you, as I always do, for [00:00:20] anyone who’s listening, I wanna tell everyone a couple of reasons why I think that this.[00:00:25]

[00:00:25] It’s one of those universal episodes applicable to anyone. Number one, [00:00:30] the trends in technology are changing at so [00:00:35] fast, exponential rate that it’s literally one of those things, like if you’re not [00:00:40] watching it, it will pass you by. Mm-hmm. So we’re gonna talk a lot about what are those trends, what has [00:00:45] changed over the last five years.

[00:00:47] More importantly, what do you need to know right [00:00:50] now in the digital space to capitalize on this content [00:00:55] economy that we’re living in? So that’s the first thing. Mm-hmm. That is why it is applicable to anyone. If you’re online, this will [00:01:00] have application to you. Number two, we’re gonna talk about the rise of the personal [00:01:05] brand, uh, and what that really means, and.

[00:01:08] What is a personal brand, [00:01:10] what people think it is, but also how does that influence, you know, marketing [00:01:15] and consumer behavior today? So we’re gonna talk a little bit about that. And then number three, we’re gonna talk about the [00:01:20] biggest topic that everyone is talking about, no matter who you are, where you are, the, the voice [00:01:25] of AI and automation, and how that, uh, applies to your business today.

[00:01:29] [00:01:30] So as you guys are listening and deciding, is this one of those episodes, that’s for me. Now, you [00:01:35] know that this is. For you, right? So that’s why you need to stick around, uh, and [00:01:40] listen to the entire show. But now let me introduce you to my good friend. Now I can give you a casual [00:01:45] introduction of Vincent and why I think he’s wicked smart and so helpful.

[00:01:49] [00:01:50] But his team is also just as helpful. Uh, there’s very few vendors that I would [00:01:55] raise two hands and say. Has been a pleasure to work with from top to bottom. And [00:02:00] Vincent’s Company, Viton is one of those companies, but he also has lots of other accolades. So let me [00:02:05] give you a quick formal, uh, a formal introduction and then we’ll get going.[00:02:10]

[00:02:10] First and foremost, Vincent is the founder and CEO. He’s the owner of [00:02:15] Viton, which is a mobile app company, uh, and in our world [00:02:20] specifically and uniquely designed to help build personal brand apps, which I think is [00:02:25] just. Amazing, and we’re gonna talk a lot about that today. But more than that, uh, he is a [00:02:30] three time, uh, CMO, uh, different, uh, technology companies, [00:02:35] healthcare companies.

[00:02:36] Uh, he’s done anything from ai, enterprise startups [00:02:40] to, uh, creating, uh, digital events in the, uh, the digital landscape [00:02:45] when, when the pandemic shut down everything. Vincent was one of the few pioneers who took [00:02:50] everything online and built online communities. Kind of [00:02:55] overnight. He’s also, uh, has an amazing personal brand of his own, and I love that.

[00:02:59] [00:03:00] He’s a dad of two girls. He’s a girl, dad. Uh, and I get to see his girls every Sunday at [00:03:05] church. And honestly, you’re just an awesome dude. And so I’m so excited to [00:03:10] have you. Welcome to the show.

[00:03:11] vincent: Thanks so much, aj. It’s. Awesome being here and you know, [00:03:15] likewise with you and the BBG team, it has been like such a pleasure to be able to work with the [00:03:20] team and every single time that we come to one of the BBG events I learned so much.

[00:03:24] Just, [00:03:25] you know, being an ear on the wall, being able to just hear, but you know, the community has [00:03:30] just been incredible. Um, you mentioned inviting a little bit and. Uh, we don’t talk [00:03:35] externally a a lot about our mission, but our mission is to help people live [00:03:40] healthier, happier lives. Mm-hmm. And we do a lot of that work.

[00:03:43] You know, we’re a technology company. [00:03:45] We build mobile apps, we integrate AI into mobile apps, but we accomplish that work through [00:03:50] partnerships with companies like yours and like with the BBG, um, [00:03:55] folks and community because our work just amplifies and allows them [00:04:00] to be able to get their message out there.

[00:04:02] Yeah, and you know what? And that’s what marketing should do, [00:04:05] good marketing should do just what you said. Mm-hmm. It’s to help people live healthier, [00:04:10] happier, more productive lives, and to get messages out into the world. And I feel [00:04:15] like, at least in the last, I’ll call it 10 years, that there has been [00:04:20] such an oversaturation of bad marketing.

[00:04:23] vincent: There’s a lot of noise out there.

[00:04:24] There’s a lot of [00:04:25] noise. And maybe bad is a strong word, but I would say. Uh, [00:04:30] not aligned marketing with mm-hmm. The way that you do it. And so I, I’d love to start with this question ’cause [00:04:35] I think it’s really important to set the tone Yeah. For where we are today and I think where we’re all [00:04:40] heading.

[00:04:40] Mm-hmm. What would you say are some of like the biggest mistakes or [00:04:45] trends or challenges that you’ve seen in the marketing space in the last five years that have brought us [00:04:50] to where we are today with ai?

[00:04:51] vincent: Yeah, I think that’s a really good question. Like there are things in marketing that are, [00:04:55] that will always be.

[00:04:57] Good messaging, good copywriting will [00:05:00] always be important to marketing and that, like I take a look at marketing strategies [00:05:05] versus marketing tactics. I. Marketing tactics change all the time, right? When [00:05:10] you look backwards and you take a look at 10 years ago, Facebook groups had massive [00:05:15] visibility. You saw businesses building off of these Facebook groups that had a hundred [00:05:20] thousand, 200,000 people, and a lot of reach.

[00:05:22] So the number one thing is really the [00:05:25] algorithms from the large social media companies are shifting and changing. [00:05:30] Constantly and the platforms themselves are shifting and changing as well. They’ve [00:05:35] consolidated a little bit with meta purchasing and like growing through acquisition, [00:05:40] but when you take a look at earlier this year, I think the TikTok ban was like the scariest and [00:05:45] also like the biggest moment.

[00:05:47] Yeah. Where you say. Hey, some people have built [00:05:50] literally millions, their millions entire business, their entire business off of TikTok, and you see the [00:05:55] de platforming that has happened. You know, there’s never been real proof of a shadow [00:06:00] ban, but you hear all the time people talking about, you know, one day my [00:06:05] reach just fundamentally changed overnight.

[00:06:07] So I would say that de platforming the [00:06:10] algorithm shifts are the number one thing that has changed. You know, we have been told for forever. [00:06:15] That you should own your audience, build an email list. But the big change [00:06:20] now with the new iPhone is AI is built into the fundamental hardware and software [00:06:25] of the new iPhones.

[00:06:26] Your, uh, email preview, right, that first line of an email [00:06:30] newsletter is now an AI summary. Your inbox is going, which quite

[00:06:33] honestly, I despise. Yeah. I [00:06:35] hate that. I’m like, that is not what I want. I’m so, every time I look at my phone, I’m like, what am I, what am I looking at? Yeah. [00:06:40]

[00:06:40] vincent: What am I, what am I reading at here?

[00:06:41] But that’s just

[00:06:41] the beginning of, yeah, that’s the beginning of

[00:06:43] vincent: it. Right. And so [00:06:45] emails now have an algorithm because it’s being sorted into your primary, your updates, your [00:06:50] promotion tab, and even text messages from unknown numbers are being sorted into on [00:06:55] iMessage. A different folder as well. And so the ability to be [00:07:00] able to communicate and reach your audience directly, whether you are a [00:07:05] local brick and mortar.

[00:07:06] And you have information that you want to be able to send [00:07:10] out about specials, about new staff members, about promotions, about retreats, and all of that [00:07:15] information, or whether you’re building an online business is the exact same thing. [00:07:20] You want the ability to be able to reach your audience as directly as much as possible and for you [00:07:25] to be able to own and control that relationship.

[00:07:27] Now, we’ve talked about like AI in terms of. Um, [00:07:30] the impact that it’s having on your business, but AI can also be a huge tailwind as [00:07:35] well. Mm-hmm. If your business is leveraging it. And so, you know, the three [00:07:40] bus biggest trends and changes are these platform and algorithm changes the [00:07:45] way that you communicate directly with your community.

[00:07:48] And then the third one [00:07:50] is how you’re leveraging AI or not leveraging ai.

[00:07:53] Yeah. You know, that’s interesting [00:07:55] because I think, uh, I’d like to hit each of those just really quickly. Mm-hmm. Individually. Mm-hmm. For a little bit more [00:08:00] context. Um, and this could easily just how everyone knows, be an eight hour interview, and we’re gonna cram it into [00:08:05] like 55 minutes.

[00:08:06] But, uh, I, I think it’s, this algorithm [00:08:10] conversation is something that has impacted everyone and it’s likely not [00:08:15] going to, to stop changing. Like it’s going to keep changing. [00:08:20] Uh, what do, what do we do about that?

[00:08:21] vincent: I think the biggest thing is just understanding the trends in the [00:08:25] marketplace because. If, if you take a look at the adoption curve of [00:08:30] any technology, you know the, there is a place where you will have early [00:08:35] adopters that will adopt something.

[00:08:36] The biggest example I think of early adopters adopting something [00:08:40] quickly was clubhouse. Like, remember the week where clubhouse was just like everywhere that [00:08:45] everywhere was, and then just

[00:08:45] as quickly went away and then just as quickly

[00:08:47] vincent: went away. The question is, is [00:08:50] like. How do you take a look at platforms and changes and you say, [00:08:55] Hey, clubhouse had its moment right, but when it went [00:09:00] away, how do you, how do you not let that become the distraction to your life and business, [00:09:05] whereas you have other instances like podcasting as a trend, or [00:09:10] TikTok as a trend.

[00:09:11] Where you say, Hey, this is not just early adopters. This has the [00:09:15] potential to become mainstream and you see the value in it. And to [00:09:20] ensure that you are understanding how you can jump on that wave [00:09:25] and on that trend, once you start taking a look at those [00:09:30] trends, the next step is to take a look in your funnel.

[00:09:33] So for anybody [00:09:35] who’s not a marketer, by trade, you know, in your marketing funnel, at the top of the funnel, you have [00:09:40] awareness. At the bottom of the funnel, you have your conversions or your purchases, and you have to take [00:09:45] a look at how that content strategy fits into your overall [00:09:50] funnel. Today we are in a moment where, at the top of the funnel, it’s all about shorts.

[00:09:54] Yeah,

[00:09:54] vincent: and [00:09:55] all about shorts means we’re talking about Instagram reels, we’re talking about tiktoks, and we’re talking about YouTube shorts. [00:10:00] You know, YouTube shorts are showing up in Google searches. Tiktoks and [00:10:05] Instagram reels have crazy virality. If your messaging resonates mm-hmm. [00:10:10] With folks online, but those are not conversion events.

[00:10:13] The conversion events [00:10:15] happen towards the bottom of the funnel and the bottom of the funnel is where you don’t just go broad, you [00:10:20] go deep.

[00:10:20] Yeah.

[00:10:21] vincent: And going deep means long form content like podcasts [00:10:25] going deep means the eBooks that are actually still working. If the eBooks have a lot [00:10:30] of value.

[00:10:31] Yeah.

[00:10:31] vincent: Where you can walk somebody through that journey.

[00:10:34] It’s interesting as [00:10:35] you say that because you said earlier there’s a difference between marketing strategies and like marketing tactics. [00:10:40] Mm-hmm. And that’s what you’re talking about right now. Yeah. It’s like, uh, I think a lot of us don’t have [00:10:45] a good marketing strategy, right? We’re being tempted with all the tactics to [00:10:50] grow followings.

[00:10:51] Mm-hmm. And, you know, go viral without understanding. Like, no, there’s a [00:10:55] conversion strategy that at the end of the day, that’s what marketing is doing. It’s driving awareness. [00:11:00] And driving them to make a decision on something. And that’s a strategy that has to be in [00:11:05] place. Yes. Before all these other things happen.

[00:11:07] vincent: Absolutely. Because a lot of a question [00:11:10] that a lot of early entrepreneurs ask is like, where should I be? Right?

[00:11:13] Mm-hmm.

[00:11:14] vincent: And it’s, [00:11:15] and the where should I be? Is, is the quintessential marketing tactic [00:11:20] question because it’s asking what channel, what social media channel should I be on? And, you [00:11:25] know, the, the irony of the whole thing is, like, my favorite answer to that is wherever you’re the most [00:11:30] comfortable, right?

[00:11:31] Wherever you’re the most comfortable is going to be the channel where you’re going to [00:11:35] enjoy creating content the most. And you have the best [00:11:40] chance of sustainably doing that over the course of a year. Because [00:11:45] a year putting out content in the same channel is about what it takes.

[00:11:49] Mm.

[00:11:49] vincent: To [00:11:50] be able to start growing your community, that community doesn’t need to be massive.

[00:11:54] [00:11:55] Right. I, uh, online there’s like the concept of the thousand true fans that many of us [00:12:00] have heard about, where you can have a thousand people that are really passionate about what you’re doing. And this is not my concept. [00:12:05] This is, you know, a concept that is taught pretty frequently, but that could be on substack.

[00:12:09] [00:12:10] Right. If you are not a camera person, you’re not a video person, it could be substack. If you [00:12:15] are comfortable with audio, that could be in podcast format. But I think the biggest piece though [00:12:20] is how you take a look at how creating that long form content goes into a [00:12:25] flywheel. I. And that flywheel results in other different types of [00:12:30] content coming out of it, right?

[00:12:31] Yeah. And you, you see companies like BBG doing this really well where this [00:12:35] long form podcast will get clipped into smaller clips. It’ll get turned, those clips [00:12:40] can get turned into blog posts. Those blog posts can turn into captions. And so. [00:12:45] The long form content is really great for being able to batch [00:12:50] content.

[00:12:50] The short, the shorter content is how you start reaching people [00:12:55] top of funnel.

[00:12:55] Yeah, no, I think that’s so good. And that’s back to the strategy. Mm-hmm. And we all need a [00:13:00] strategy in place before we just. Throw mud on a wall and it’s like, why isn’t it working? [00:13:05] Well, it takes work for it to work. Yeah, it takes work.

[00:13:08] Um, now this AI [00:13:10] component of it, because I think the fact that ai, we don’t even have the option to use it, and I think [00:13:15] that’s what I want everyone to grasp right now in what Vincent said earlier, is that [00:13:20] truly it’s being hardwired into the new iPhones, and that’s not the only [00:13:25] place. Mm-hmm. It’s now coming as an a templated part of.

[00:13:29] [00:13:30] Everyday use business tools. Yes. This is not something we get to choose to use. This isn’t [00:13:35] something that we’re like, oh no, it’s being fed to us now. Mm-hmm. It’s not an option. It’s [00:13:40] happening all around us. And so there are still some people who are pretty adverse [00:13:45] to it. Yep. Uh, just like there are still people adverse to social media and probably some that are [00:13:50] still adverse to email, surprisingly.

[00:13:52] Um, but. I think the the point is, is [00:13:55] no, it is happening. It is here. This isn’t something we’re talking about. It’s not a choice we have. And [00:14:00] so in this world of ai, what would you say when it comes to [00:14:05] marketing and personal brands, like what’s the number one thing that all of [00:14:10] us listening and selfishly me, what do we need to know?

[00:14:14] [00:14:15] What do we need to embrace? What do we need to be proactive about when it comes to utilizing [00:14:20] ai?

[00:14:20] vincent: I think that’s such a great question. I think I see AI as like the great [00:14:25] equalizer.

[00:14:25] Mm-hmm.

[00:14:26] vincent: And what I mean by that is there are technology [00:14:30] trends that allow solopreneurs, local businesses, small businesses. [00:14:35] To be able to compete on the same world stage as large [00:14:40] corporations.

[00:14:40] AI is one of those enablers, and what I mean by that is [00:14:45] in 2017, I was the CMO of a SaaS startup, a software company [00:14:50] based in San Francisco. We were venture-backed and we were using AI back in [00:14:55] 2017 to be able to answer customer service tickets on behalf of our clients. [00:15:00] With a success rate of like 70% of tickets being solved by [00:15:05] ai.

[00:15:05] And you know, back then that was something that, like your [00:15:10] average person had no idea that large brands could even do that. [00:15:15] And that was a good four or five years before Chat G gt [00:15:20]

[00:15:20] totally, yeah.

[00:15:20] vincent: Hit the market, right? What chat GPT did was not new [00:15:25] technology necessarily. Because large corporations always had data scientists, [00:15:30] always had software engineers to be able to automate that type of stuff.

[00:15:33] What large language [00:15:35] models have done is actually make that accessible to

[00:15:38] everybody,

[00:15:39] vincent: to small and [00:15:40] medium sized businesses.

[00:15:41] Yeah.

[00:15:41] vincent: Mm-hmm. And that is something that is [00:15:45] incredibly wild, right? When you take a look at what large companies used [00:15:50] to do was make these large investments in technology. [00:15:55] And it allows them to be able to compete in a completely different way than normal [00:16:00] companies.

[00:16:00] In the personal brand space, Kim Kardashian put out her first mobile app [00:16:05] in 2014. Mr. Beast put out his first mobile app in [00:16:10] 2020. Tony Robbins put out his first mobile app, uh, in I [00:16:15] think two years later. I wanna say it was 2022. And so when you’re taking a look at [00:16:20] Yeah, individuals that are putting together personal brands.

[00:16:23] You look at that upstream and you’re [00:16:25] just like, well, you know, all of them are doing it. Why I think is the number one [00:16:30] question, and that why has a lot to do with the filtering [00:16:35] and the AI and the algorithms because. They’re seeing the [00:16:40] trends of what’s happening in email marketing with open rates lingering around 31% and [00:16:45] declining every single day.

[00:16:46] All of us are getting hundreds of [00:16:50] emails a day and we know that. And the mobile apps allow them to be able to send push [00:16:55] notifications and engage like never before. Right? And so [00:17:00] even when you take a look for anybody who’s running online businesses and is familiar with launches. [00:17:05] So launching is a concept where you’re providing value, you’re nurturing your audience.

[00:17:09] You [00:17:10] might have some type of live event, and then after that you might open up a membership. [00:17:15] You know, launches historically have been done through email marketing where you would [00:17:20] send emails. Then after that we saw that some people started launching [00:17:25] with social media and email. And you know, some of the best launches today [00:17:30] are actually happening with online events that occur in a mobile app.

[00:17:34] [00:17:35] And it’s push notifications, social media, and email. And this [00:17:40] was something that wasn’t. Accessible in the past, and we’re starting to [00:17:45] see companies being able to bring this type of technology and making it available to [00:17:50] anybody.

[00:17:50] You know, it’s interesting because you just mentioned like so many different channels, [00:17:55] right?

[00:17:55] Yeah. And it’s like, and I think that’s what’s overwhelming. Mm-hmm. For someone who’s, you know, the [00:18:00] solopreneur or they have a really small team. Yeah. Or they’re just starting out and it’s like, oh my gosh. [00:18:05] You just talking about email marketing and now there’s social media, and then there’s all the different social media platforms.

[00:18:09] Yep. And now there’s [00:18:10] personal brand apps. And so if you were to narrow it down right, to like what are the [00:18:15] most fundamental and successful marketing channels [00:18:20] that someone should start with?

[00:18:22] vincent: Yep.

[00:18:22] What would you say?

[00:18:23] vincent: I think start with [00:18:25] is, is the answer that I had earlier, which is where you’re the most comfortable.

[00:18:28] Right. I think. [00:18:30] If I was to take a look second to where you’re the most comfortable, I would say it [00:18:35] is, where is your avatar, your ideal customer? Where are they hanging out already today?

[00:18:39] [00:18:40] Mm-hmm.

[00:18:40] vincent: And where they’re hanging out already today is very different. [00:18:45] I mean, there are some communities that build off a print interest.

[00:18:47] I have not used Pinterest since, I [00:18:50] think my wife and I got married almost 10 years ago because that was where our wedding, you know, Pinterest [00:18:55] board was. But you know, I know somebody who, uh, they run, [00:19:00] um, they basically have like your ultimate Walt [00:19:05] Disney World guide and that actually is a business that gets a [00:19:10] lot of their business from organic Pinterest.

[00:19:13] Um, I built an app that’s [00:19:15] called Dad’s Club. So you mentioned kind of like my, you know, my passion there at trying to [00:19:20] become the best father that I possibly can be. And I’m not a parenting expert. I’m just like trying to figure it out [00:19:25] every single day doing the best that I can. When I launched the Parents’ Club app, I actually had [00:19:30] QR code flyers and pediatrician offices.

[00:19:34] Because that’s [00:19:35] where my ideal avatar was, was it was a new dad who was going [00:19:40] to either prenatal visits or, you know, newborn, uh, visits at the pediatrician’s [00:19:45] office. And so I think that’s where online can get complicated with a [00:19:50] lot of the funnels, but fundamentally it goes to, it’s a lot easier to go to where your audience [00:19:55] is as opposed to try to get them to come to you.

[00:19:57] Oh, I love that. And I think that’s good. Start with where you’re most comfortable. [00:20:00] Then two, go to where your avatar is, right? Mm-hmm. You gotta go to where your audience is, wherever that [00:20:05] may be. Yeah. Uh, and I was just, I was cracking up internally because you mentioned Pinterest, and that’s [00:20:10] how I am with TikTok.

[00:20:10] It’s like people are like, Hey, they’re always sending me TikTok videos. Hey, you gotta watch [00:20:15] this video. I’m like, I can’t see it. I don’t have an account. Yeah. And they’re like, [00:20:20] why? And I’m like, it’s just not my place. Like my avatar is not there [00:20:25] and I’m not comfortable on the platform. Right. Yeah. So it’s like I’m, I’m not present there.

[00:20:28] Totally. I can’t, can’t [00:20:30] see anything there. And I think there’s a lot of truth to that is one, you gotta enjoy what you’re doing, otherwise you’re not gonna do it. [00:20:35] Um, and two, most importantly, your avatar has to be there in order for you to actually do the thing you’re [00:20:40] trying to do. Yeah. Which is reach the person that you’re trying to serve.

[00:20:43] Yep. Um, so I think that’s really [00:20:45] wise And sage advice. Uh, what are some of the common mistakes that you see [00:20:50] personal brands making when it comes to. All that we’re talking about.

[00:20:54] vincent: Yeah, I [00:20:55] think the, one of the most common mistakes is not figuring out who you’re serving [00:21:00] and trying to be everything to everybody.

[00:21:03] You know, that that ends up [00:21:05] being something that’s really dangerous. And, you know, for anybody listening to this podcast, a [00:21:10] likely already knows brand Builders Group BBG, you know, has brand DNA [00:21:15] as a portion of, you know, how do you figure out who to [00:21:20] best serve? To take a look at the messaging to be able to serve that person [00:21:25] well.

[00:21:25] And for all of our folks who are building personal brand apps, this is [00:21:30] something that we absolutely recommend early on because you know [00:21:35] your story, you have a story in terms of who you are and the transformation that you’ve [00:21:40] had in your life. And being able to have that message [00:21:45] really resonate with somebody else.

[00:21:47] Um, there are components of. [00:21:50] You know, that personal story, how you felt and how you feel now that [00:21:55] needs to be able to end up in your messaging. And today, you know, the, [00:22:00] this is where leveraging the AI can really, really help in whether it’s [00:22:05] doing the research or, uh, tactically. Being able [00:22:10] to just generate different types of messaging to test.

[00:22:13] Mm.

[00:22:13] vincent: And you hear a [00:22:15] lot about testing when it comes to paid media, just because you can, you can [00:22:20] test with different audiences, but if somebody’s not investing in paid ads, you [00:22:25] can just as easily test in captions, right? Sure. On your Instagram posts. [00:22:30] But you know, I think social media today, a lot of it is just putting a lot out [00:22:35] there.

[00:22:35] Taking a look at what’s working and doing more of what’s working. You [00:22:40] know, there’s places like email subject lines where you can take a look at testing as well. [00:22:45] But ai, you know, it used to be that you would have to hire a copywriter [00:22:50] to be able to write out these six, seven different versions of [00:22:55] something.

[00:22:56] And today, that’s where AI allows the small and local [00:23:00] business owner to be able to have the same types of resources as a company that does have a [00:23:05] full-time copywriter.

[00:23:06] Yeah, I love that you bring that up. And I wanna say it was Gary [00:23:10] V who quoted this at an event we were at last year, and he said, no one [00:23:15] should fear ai.

[00:23:16] Taking your job. You should only fear AI if you [00:23:20] don’t integrate AI into your job. Yes. Right. It’s like it’s not gonna replace [00:23:25] jobs, it’s gonna replace people who refuse to use it in their job. Yeah. And I think that’s a lot of what you [00:23:30] just said. It’s like, I mean, it’s forcing there to be a quicker turnaround.

[00:23:34] Mm-hmm. It’s [00:23:35] forcing speed. Yeah. It’s forcing deliverability what used to be acceptable to [00:23:40] wait 30 days on a copywriter. It’s like, uh, no, I want it today.

[00:23:43] vincent: Yeah.

[00:23:44] Like end of [00:23:45] day.

[00:23:45] vincent: Yeah. Yeah. And you know, I was, I was walking last week with a good friend, [00:23:50] Ashton Shanks. He’s building an AI company previously, you know, he was seven, eight figure [00:23:55] marketing agency owner.

[00:23:56] And we were talking about like how AI is going to evolve and kind of like [00:24:00] internally what we’re seeing inside of our own companies. And the biggest thing is like, [00:24:05] it’s not necessarily replace jobs, but it’s made everybody on the team more efficient. Mm-hmm. [00:24:10] And from a productivity standpoint, um. The folks on our, [00:24:15] on my team that are using AI are getting more done.

[00:24:18] In the same length of [00:24:20] time. And I think that’s been the biggest change, is that some of the really [00:24:25] highly repetitive types of work we’ve been able to leverage AI for so that [00:24:30] we can spend more time on the strategy. Yeah. And the stuff that’s actually going to move the needle [00:24:35] and you know, being able to leverage the AI is really important.

[00:24:39] I think that, [00:24:40] you know, you and I, you had just mentioned like people who are AI adverse. I think the, [00:24:45] the AI aversion, a lot of it comes from like, well, I tried it out and like it’s just not [00:24:50] good. Right. And, uh, that part has a lot to [00:24:55] do with like continuing to experiment but also feeding your own [00:25:00] content in.

[00:25:01] Yeah. I think like step one, so for anybody who [00:25:05] is listening to this saying, you know, I, I am one of those AI adverse people. Like, what [00:25:10] are the first three steps that I can take to, to try it? You know, I think a common one [00:25:15] is trying to use AI to write something for you. But if you put a prompt in and the AI just puts [00:25:20] something out where you’re just like, this is not aligned with how we write, this is not aligned with [00:25:25] how I speak.

[00:25:25] This is not aligned as my with my values. The next step after that [00:25:30] is to take the stuff that you have written or take podcast episodes and [00:25:35] transcripts of podcasts that you’ve been on. And to feed that in and [00:25:40] to help the AI understand what you sound like, how you [00:25:45] speak, and the types of things and methodologies that are aligned [00:25:50] with you.

[00:25:50] And the more and more that you do this, the AI starts to [00:25:55] understand you even better. And you know, this is no different than [00:26:00] onboarding a new employee into your company.

[00:26:01] Mm-hmm.

[00:26:02] vincent: Right? Because

[00:26:03] you gotta train ’em up.

[00:26:03] vincent: You gotta train ’em up. [00:26:05] Right. You put a job description out there, you, you know, you welcome somebody in.

[00:26:09] But on day [00:26:10] one, that person is not going to understand everything about you and your company and how you work. [00:26:15] Until you start helping that person understand that, you know,

[00:26:17] it’s literally, as you were talking, what it made me [00:26:20] think about is. AI is only gonna be helpful to you when you actually know [00:26:25] what it is you want it to do.

[00:26:26] Yes. Like with any good communication. Mm-hmm. Right. If you’re not [00:26:30] clear in the questions mm-hmm. You’re never gonna get the answers that you want. Yes. Right. If you’re not clear in what [00:26:35] results you want, then it’s really hard to give good instructions, which [00:26:40] makes the strategy part all that more important for this to even be able to help you.[00:26:45]

[00:26:45] Otherwise, it’s gonna be bad. Yes. It’s gonna be yes. Not good and people are like, oh, this is [00:26:50] terrible. And it’s like, no, it’s not terrible. Your communication to it was terrible. Mm-hmm. [00:26:55] No different than a new hire or an employee. It’s like you give them bad instructions, [00:27:00] they’re not able to do the job. This is no different.

[00:27:02] vincent: It’s no different. So in [00:27:05] 2019, my first daughter, Lily was born. She’s about five years old. Um, right now, but that was the year that [00:27:10] I started Dad’s Club and you know, with Dad’s club starting in 2019, [00:27:15] uh, early 2020, I had a copywriter on the team. And you know, dad’s [00:27:20] Club is a mobile app where it’s got parenting book, audio summaries, and I [00:27:25] had somebody that was reading those books, summarizing those books, and then writing [00:27:30] scripts.

[00:27:30] For me to like, like an

[00:27:31] actual human, do it, not like an actual

[00:27:33] vincent: human doing that. [00:27:35] Right. Okay. And you know, that costs a lot of money. A lot of

[00:27:38] money. And a lot of time. And

[00:27:39] vincent: a [00:27:40] lot of time to be able to do that. Today, if I [00:27:45] wanted to do a new audiobook summary, we’re talking about it’s 15 [00:27:50] minutes.

[00:27:50] That’s crazy.

[00:27:51] vincent: To be able to prepare for it, another 10 minutes to be able to record [00:27:55] that. And then after that, you know, it’s editing. But we’re talking [00:28:00] about something that used to take a week to be able to do, can now be [00:28:05] done in an hour, and it’s the exact same steps. You know, back then, like I [00:28:10] still had to give instructions to that writer.

[00:28:12] Sure. I still had to give feedback for revisions. [00:28:15] The only thing that’s different now is, you know, the AI is going to be more consistent, [00:28:20] is going to be faster, but you can’t skip the steps. [00:28:25] Mm-hmm. Of mm-hmm. Telling it exactly what you want it to do.

[00:28:27] Yeah, I think that’s so good. Uh, [00:28:30] and I think it’s really important that you mentioned that, that this app, right?

[00:28:33] Mm-hmm. So we, we mentioned [00:28:35] earlier that Vincent is the CEO and founder of viton, and they build [00:28:40] mobile apps. And in our unique world, they, you know, build this awesome personal [00:28:45] brand app. Mm-hmm. And I, I’d love to talk about that a little bit because I think there’s a trend Yes. Heading in that [00:28:50] direction because of all the things that you mentioned where.

[00:28:52] The algorithms on all the platforms are [00:28:55] constantly changing and will continue to change for the benefit of those platforms. [00:29:00] Mm-hmm. Not necessarily for the benefit of the content creator. Yes. As it is. Then [00:29:05] two is the, the decline trend in open rates and email marketing, [00:29:10] because you’re right. It’s like we have heard this and I’m a big believer of like, no, you have to own your [00:29:15] contacts.

[00:29:15] Right? You’re not building your audience on rented real estate for other people. Uh, no [00:29:20] offense, mark Zuckerberg or anyone else, but it’s like, I’m not trying to build your empire, right? Yeah. I’m trying [00:29:25] to create my own community. However, now with AI and all these [00:29:30] things in your inboxes, it’s like mm-hmm.

[00:29:31] They’re not getting your emails. No, they’re not opening your emails and it’s like, [00:29:35] this is a whole new world of everything that was, [00:29:40] is no more. Right? It is changing rapidly and at the speed of technology, [00:29:45] it’s like you cannot keep up and then. I think you mentioned [00:29:50] things like push notifications and mobile apps, and I think there is this [00:29:55] rise to this concept of, well, how do I consolidate all of my [00:30:00] content to make it easier for people to access, you know, my information so they don’t have to go to [00:30:05] YouTube, then Instagram, then my podcast, then X, then TikTok.[00:30:10]

[00:30:10] Um, but then also the ability to reach ’em. Yeah. So let’s talk about like what is a [00:30:15] personal brand app? When, you know, you mentioned a few of these, like Kim Kardashians happened more than a [00:30:20] decade ago. Um, what is it, what do they do and what are the trends that you see towards [00:30:25] this?

[00:30:25] vincent: Yeah, so I think the first thing is when you take a look [00:30:30] longer over the course of like a century, there are always changes [00:30:35] in how to be able to reach folks.

[00:30:37] So newspapers and the printing [00:30:40] press, like if you go back, what’s back? If you go back that long. There is the evolution of that [00:30:45] to radio, to tv, to websites, to [00:30:50] mobile apps, to the push notifications that mobile apps are able to [00:30:55] send now, and being able to evolve with them oftentimes [00:31:00] starts with the larger players in the market.

[00:31:02] That can afford it. Mm-hmm. And then [00:31:05] becomes accessible to the masses and that’s what’s happening to your point, with the [00:31:10] personal brand apps that we’re seeing now. So a personal brand app allows you [00:31:15] to be able to think about all of the things in your LinkedIn bio, right, that you put in your LinkedIn [00:31:20] bio today when somebody clicks that, they’re gonna click on one of the seven links in there.

[00:31:24] Yeah, [00:31:25] and then you may or may not ask for an email address depending on what [00:31:30] one of those seven links are, and when you get that email address, you can send [00:31:35] emails to them, but they have an open rate that’s under 50% and a click through rate, that’s like two to [00:31:40] 3%. The game changer with these personal brand apps are, if you’re listening to this [00:31:45] right now and you’re wearing an Apple watch, you get notifications on your Apple Watch.

[00:31:49] [00:31:50] If you have an Apple Home pod in your house, you get notifications on your [00:31:55] home pod, even when you’re away from your phone. But for the phone that all of us carry around [00:32:00] today, we on average spend five hours a day in our, on our phone. On our [00:32:05] smartphones, like everybody has a smartphone and 90% of that time is spent inside [00:32:10] of a mobile app.

[00:32:10] Yeah, that’s wild. And I don’t even, oh, my phone’s across the room. This is the furthest I’ve ever been [00:32:15] from my phone. But if I had my phone, you don’t even have to unlock it [00:32:20] to see the notifications. Yeah. That is in marketing, [00:32:25] the best real estate. Mm-hmm. That you could possibly have. Right now it’s closer than a billboard.

[00:32:29] [00:32:30] Somebody checks their phone, unlocks their phone 205 times a day. And [00:32:35] so this is powerful in terms of engagement. So we talked [00:32:40] about earlier in this episode, short form content, really great top of funnel to be able to build [00:32:45] awareness. It gets virality and it gets attention. Push notifications [00:32:50] allows you to go deep and to get engagement.

[00:32:53] Hmm.

[00:32:53] vincent: And what I mean by this [00:32:55] is you’re likely listening to this on a podcast right now, wherever you subscribe to [00:33:00] podcasts. If it’s an Apple podcast and you don’t listen to an episode for three weeks, [00:33:05] new episodes, don’t get downloaded onto your phone anymore. If you’re watching a YouTube video, [00:33:10] all the YouTubers always say, subscribe and hit the bell.

[00:33:12] Subscribe and hit the bell. Subscribe and hit the bell. [00:33:15] Why do we do that? Because hitting the bell gets you pushed notifications. The power of these [00:33:20] personal brand apps is consolidating everything in your LinkedIn bio all into one place. [00:33:25] Onto a property that you own in a mobile app that you own [00:33:30] that doesn’t have that algorithm between you and your audience.

[00:33:33] But the other beauty of it [00:33:35] is you might be listening to the BBG podcast. You download A BBG [00:33:40] light app, and then now anytime that there’s a new blog post, you’re getting [00:33:45] push notifications for that blog post. Anytime that there’s an online event, you’re getting push [00:33:50] notifications for that. Because it’s really hard for somebody to come into your ecosystem [00:33:55] where they may have discovered you on YouTube and they might not have any [00:34:00] idea that you have an e-commerce store, or they might know you from the [00:34:05] e-commerce mm-hmm.

[00:34:05] Store and they have no idea that you post blog posts. ’cause like [00:34:10] I’m not sitting around on blogs hitting refresh, like waiting for a new article. And so you [00:34:15] have to be able to push that content to folks so that everybody sees and [00:34:20] knows it. But when you do that, because the push notifications [00:34:25] is really about nurture and relationship.

[00:34:28] When you have an offer, [00:34:30] when you have a new program, when you have something that you’re opening up, it’s already [00:34:35] there. You’re not trying to move them to a webpage or a website from your YouTube [00:34:40] channel because everything’s already in one app.

[00:34:43] You know, it’s interesting because, [00:34:45] uh, I didn’t connect the dots.

[00:34:46] S with this earlier until you were just talking, but you know, you [00:34:50] go to the app store today, it’s like every large company has an app at this point. Yes. And this [00:34:55] is not any different than what you were talking about earlier about how the large companies have been using [00:35:00] ai, AKA software engineers Yeah.

[00:35:03] For decades. It’s just wasn’t [00:35:05] accessible to the masses. Right. And it’s the same thing with apps.

[00:35:08] vincent: And it was the same thing with websites [00:35:10] 10 years ago. Yeah. There was a point like, believe it or not, because this [00:35:15] seems like so long ago, there was a point when entrepreneurs were asking the question of, [00:35:20] should I build a website?

[00:35:21] Yeah. Right. Which seems so foreign day, which seems so [00:35:25] foreign,

[00:35:25] vincent: but at the time it was white pages. [00:35:30] Businesses were listed in the White pages, and some businesses

[00:35:34] had a [00:35:35] website.

[00:35:35] vincent: Had a website, and there were some that said, no, I don’t need that. I got [00:35:40] my phone number in the White pages.

[00:35:41] Who needs this digital thing?

[00:35:42] Who needs

[00:35:43] vincent: this digital thing [00:35:45] today? Like that’s absurd. It’s absurd. Yeah, right. We live in Nashville. Uh, you know, [00:35:50] we both live in Nashville. If we went to the farmer’s market and we saw somebody setting [00:35:55] up a new table with a new tent, there are two things that that table definitely [00:36:00] has today. They have a website, they can accept credit card, and they probably use either [00:36:05] Square or Shopify.

[00:36:06] To be able to have their online presence and accept credit card payments. [00:36:10] That is like, you would be crazy to set up a new business at the [00:36:15] farmer’s market and only take cash

[00:36:16] to it. You know, it’s so funny you say that because I only know when the farmer’s market is happening [00:36:20] because of the different digital platforms.

[00:36:22] Mm-hmm. That I follow. That alert me. Yes. Right. It’s like if [00:36:25] it wasn’t for that, I wouldn’t even know it existed.

[00:36:27] vincent: Correct. So across all the industries [00:36:30] where VI and plays today, right? So we, we want to help people live healthier, happier lives. We [00:36:35] work with, uh, brick and mortar fitness studios. We work with online fitness live [00:36:40] streamers.

[00:36:40] We work with chiropractors offices. We work with folks who, you know, teach [00:36:45] parenting strategies, have, you know, health strategies across all those [00:36:50] spaces. The number one thing that we’re seeing is this move towards the [00:36:55] apps because upstream. Right. Chipotle has an app, but if you [00:37:00] are a local restaurant and you are making salads, your consumers are making a [00:37:05] choice.

[00:37:06] Right. If you’re a local coffee shop, you know, and you take [00:37:10] a look at Starbucks’s earnings report. Yeah. Starbucks has [00:37:15] over a third of their revenue is coming from revenue inside of the mobile app. [00:37:20] Inside the Starbucks app.

[00:37:21] Yeah. That’s crazy. That

[00:37:22] vincent: is crazy. But how is the [00:37:25] local coffee shop? Get to do that?

[00:37:27] Get to do that because consumer [00:37:30] preferences are clear. 88% of consumers prefer to [00:37:35] interact with a business in their mobile app instead of the mobile website. [00:37:40] And having a mobile friendly website today is not enough [00:37:45] anymore because we all know the experience of using an app. It’s faster, [00:37:50] it’s more responsive.

[00:37:51] You’re not doing that thing where you have to like zoom in and zoom out [00:37:55] on your phone and it’s, it’s built for your phone.

[00:37:58] Mm.

[00:37:58] vincent: But the other thing that [00:38:00] happens as well is if you are thinking, my website’s already mobile friendly, that’s [00:38:05] enough. People will open up your mobile app [00:38:10] two and a half times more often than they’ll visit your website.

[00:38:13] You know, back in the day when [00:38:15] like a OL was a thing, we used to all bookmark websites, right. Today, nobody’s [00:38:20] bookmarking websites. You just do a Google search. If you need to find a company’s website, [00:38:25] if you can remember the name of the company, the app [00:38:30] icon that somebody saves onto your phone is kind of like that refrigerator magnet [00:38:35] mm-hmm.

[00:38:35] That the businesses used to send out. Right? Yeah. The refrigerator magnet [00:38:40] was a thing because it was the reminder. Yeah. For [00:38:45] you. Of that business and their phone number today, that is the app icon.

[00:38:49] Hmm.

[00:38:49] vincent: [00:38:50] Somebody unlocks their phone 205 times a day. They’re either gonna see your logo there or they’re not.

[00:38:54] [00:38:55] There’s gonna be either the red little bubble that says you have a notification or there’s not. [00:39:00] And every single day that a business doesn’t build a website [00:39:05] at that farmer’s market is a day where they’re sending their customers off to a [00:39:10] competitor. All of the analysts. And all of the big [00:39:15] companies already know this is mobile apps because the big, the big players have been [00:39:20] doing it for a long time.

[00:39:21] For a long time.

[00:39:22] And this is the opportunity for the small [00:39:25] business, the entrepreneur. Mm-hmm. The solopreneur, the content creator, the thought leader, the speaker, the author, the [00:39:30] coach to get into the space. Yes. And that’s, and that’s what I hear you saying, right?

[00:39:34] vincent: Yes. [00:39:35] And that can be a scary and daunting thing though.

[00:39:37] Mm-hmm. Right. What is [00:39:40] different now is that. Just like [00:39:45] websites are possible for small businesses to have, the mobile [00:39:50] apps are coming to be the same thing as well. You know, traditionally, if you wanted to [00:39:55] custom build a mobile app. Projects can start actually with dad’s club. When I first started [00:40:00] trying to build dad’s club, I went out and I got quotes, uh, for what it was like to build that.[00:40:05]

[00:40:05] And you know, the average quote was like 50 to 150,000. And I’m thinking, oh my [00:40:10] gosh, this is on top of the copywriter that I’m gonna need to be able to help me create the content. [00:40:15] And, uh, today. It’s possible to do that in a 10th of the price because [00:40:20] the technology has just changed.

[00:40:21] Oh, I will just tell you guys, uh, if you are a part of the Brand Builders Group [00:40:25] community, that we have two apps.

[00:40:26] Mm-hmm. Right? We have a community app, which is just our like membership [00:40:30] app. And when we were getting quotes for it, so it’s been live for two years, took us [00:40:35] a year to kind of get it live. So when I started initially getting quotes. For the BBG app was [00:40:40] probably four to five years ago, minimum quotes were coming in at [00:40:45] $250,000 mm-hmm.

[00:40:46] For us to build this custom app. And I was like, what? That’s [00:40:50] crazy. Like we’re a small business, that’s a down

[00:40:52] vincent: payment on a house.

[00:40:53] Like that’s [00:40:55] insanity. And, and also knowing it was gonna be more expensive and take longer than what they were putting [00:41:00] Yes. Just like building a house, by the way. Yeah. Um, and so then I started looking at like other [00:41:05] platforms.

[00:41:05] Like we looked at Mighty Networks. Mm-hmm. And we looked at all these other different platforms and they were all good in their [00:41:10] own right. But none of them could do everything that we needed. Yes. But even then, it was $30,000 a [00:41:15] year. In perpetuity.

[00:41:16] vincent: In perpetuity.

[00:41:17] And I’m like, and it doesn’t even do all the things we [00:41:20] wanted.

[00:41:20] Right. And so we finally kind of like piecemealed together everything and [00:41:25] created an app that almost had everything that we wanted, but not quite. But it still [00:41:30] was. I mean, it still is going to be tens of thousands of dollars a [00:41:35] year mm-hmm. To pay for that. Um, and it was also a, a painful [00:41:40] process. Not, eh, that’s just the, the, the art of technology.

[00:41:43] It’s a little bit painful. [00:41:45] And when we got introduced to you, I was like, there’s gotta, this is like, there has to be a, [00:41:50] like a trick. Like there’s, this is can’t be real because. It wasn’t [00:41:55] tens of thousands of dollars for a personal brand app. It was $2,500 at the time. [00:42:00] Mm-hmm. And I have no doubt your prices will go up over the course of time.

[00:42:03] That, but it was more than that. It was [00:42:05] done in a week. Yeah. And I was like, no way. They lie. They lie. [00:42:10] No way. Uh, because we had gone through the process. Mm-hmm. And I’m like, there’s no [00:42:15] way they’re gonna be doable, all that for this. Like, how do they make money? And it’s like, but. [00:42:20] Learning the, the process and the business.

[00:42:21] It’s like, well, that’s what good systems processes a good team. Yeah. [00:42:25] Automation, ai and actually knowing what you’re doing. Can actually help do that. [00:42:30] And I share that to go, because we invested into this and we have two apps now. We have B, [00:42:35] B, G for members, but we have B, BG Light. Yeah. Right. So this is everyone’s hint.

[00:42:38] Go down bb g, light, it’s a [00:42:40] free app. Uh, but it’s for all these reasons because we are experiencing the same things that everyone [00:42:45] else is. Like the algorithm is changing. It’s harder to reach our audience. Yeah. So the email open rates [00:42:50] are lowering, even though these are in our email list, people who’ve opted in, and it’s like, why aren’t you opening [00:42:55] our emails?

[00:42:55] Mm-hmm. Um. And so we invested in the same thing to, to solve the [00:43:00] same problem that we’re talking about. But I think what made it so appealing [00:43:05] is it, it is what you just said. It’s like what has been available and around that we’re [00:43:10] already accustomed to. We just couldn’t afford it. Mm-hmm. Is now affordable for the [00:43:15] small business owner, the solopreneur.

[00:43:17] Um, and at $2,500 there’s a pretty quick ROI [00:43:20] in just being able to talk to your customers again. Yes. To be able to reach your audience. Yeah. Like [00:43:25] that means a lot In a world where. Big business owns [00:43:30] that, right? Mm-hmm. And they get to decide when, how, and that’s not cool. Right. So this is like [00:43:35] really taking back control of your audience.

[00:43:37] vincent: Yeah. And we, we’ve spent years [00:43:40] refining the processes, to your point, to be able to make it possible to build a custom [00:43:45] personal brand app in a week. And you know, we kicked off your project on a [00:43:50] Monday. By Wednesday, we were showing you every single screen in your app. You gave us some [00:43:55] feedback on that.

[00:43:55] Wednesday afternoon, by Thursday we turned the revisions and then we were submitting the app to Apple and [00:44:00] Google on Friday. And I remember on Saturday you, we left for

[00:44:02] Mexico, you and

[00:44:03] vincent: Rory, and the family [00:44:05] left for Mexico.

[00:44:06] That’d be ready, but that’s

[00:44:07] vincent: how mu, that’s how much confidence that we had [00:44:10] in the processes because we’ve done this so many times.

[00:44:13] There’s three things [00:44:15] that really make us unique in the marketplace today. You know, our mission is to help people live healthier, happier [00:44:20] lives. And the secondary to that, and just as important is we want to make [00:44:25] this type of technology that large companies have always had access to available to every single [00:44:30] solopreneur, local entrepreneur, small business.

[00:44:33] And, uh, [00:44:35] we do that by bringing simplicity and speed to the process. Mm-hmm. So we can do this in a [00:44:40] week so that you can achieve the ROI, you know, be for many, many [00:44:45] marketing agencies. Salaries and labor is the biggest cost by streaming lining these [00:44:50] processes we’re able to bring. The amount of cost that it takes us to be able to build the [00:44:55] app and then pass all of that through.

[00:44:57] Yeah. The simplicity part is talking [00:45:00] about, we know that the process of building a mobile app can be really intimidating, which is why we [00:45:05] take on all of the technical stuff and you know, we work with [00:45:10] majority companies that do not have a chief technology officer, do not have [00:45:15] software development teams in house to be able to allow them to compete with the companies that do.[00:45:20]

[00:45:20] Yeah. And you know, the second thing is just the number of features and integrations that we [00:45:25] have allows you, to your point, to be able to tie [00:45:30] all of these different things together. That historically, if you bought a [00:45:35] branded app, you’re buying it from a company where the only thing that that app does. Is [00:45:40] provide you with a branded mobile app for whatever that company does.

[00:45:43] So you end up [00:45:45] with either an e-commerce app that only does e-commerce, a food delivery app that only [00:45:50] does food delivery, or a content app that only does content. [00:45:55] And you know, there’s. Two big trends that we’re really seeing. The first one is the [00:46:00] implementation of ai. So the BBG light app does have, um, a custom GPT [00:46:05] in it that is called Brand Bot.

[00:46:07] And Brand bot is brilliant [00:46:10] at actually helping you do the types of things that you would do if [00:46:15] you were working with BBG in a strategy session or a content intensive. And [00:46:20] you know, it’s an incredible technology to be able to get leverage. But the [00:46:25] second thing that we’re seeing from that is this shift from [00:46:30] mass content to micro personalized content.

[00:46:34] Mm.

[00:46:34] vincent: [00:46:35] And what I mean by that is, you know, when you think about, uh, [00:46:40] 10 years ago before streaming, there were only a few TV channels, [00:46:45] and chances are on during prime time, you and I, aj, were probably watching [00:46:50] the same type of show. Right. If not the same show. Like it was [00:46:55] friends or it was, you know, whatever you were watching the next day you went to work and you talked to everybody about [00:47:00] that.

[00:47:00] That’s right. That’s macro content. Mm-hmm. Right. Micro content is closer [00:47:05] to the streaming world right now where we have so many options that we’re all watching. Love [00:47:10] is Blind, so they still won that. But for the most part, like we’re watching different shows [00:47:15] based on niches and based on, you know, what you are interested in.

[00:47:19] Mm-hmm. [00:47:20] As opposed to everybody in us watching friends. The future of entertainment is [00:47:25] already heading into a space where 15 years from now, it’ll be [00:47:30] TV shows that are made for you with characters that are made for you, and you might actually [00:47:35] be the only one watching that show, but that same experience, if you [00:47:40] run an online community or you create content online, is what’s starting to happen.[00:47:45]

[00:47:45] Yeah. As well at an individual level. Because people have [00:47:50] individual questions and individual needs. And so one example [00:47:55] is like, we have an app today that’s called Worthy Self-Care. And Miz, their [00:48:00] founder, you know, has an entire philosophy around wellness and, you know, [00:48:05] they have advice about like regulating, you know, your, [00:48:10] um, nervous system or ways to be able to reduce inflammation.[00:48:15]

[00:48:15] And you know, she might get dms on Instagram for asking [00:48:20] for advice. And inside of her app now she has an AI bot that is [00:48:25] trained to not only give the responses that she would give, but it’s [00:48:30] writing out like, here’s a four point checklist with information on [00:48:35] step by step how to do something. Hmm. It’s an [00:48:40] infinitely patient version of her as well.

[00:48:43] And

[00:48:43] accessible. And

[00:48:44] vincent: [00:48:45] accessible. Accessible as well as it doesn’t sleep.

[00:48:48] Mm-hmm.

[00:48:49] vincent: And so [00:48:50] for, you know, the person who’s listening to this going like, you know, I want to [00:48:55] talk to a human, not an ai. The question that I would have is, [00:49:00] what if the AI is saying and writing the thing that the human would. [00:49:05] But is writing a much longer, more detailed version of it

[00:49:08] and giving it to you when you want it and [00:49:10] giving it

[00:49:10] vincent: to you instantly.

[00:49:12] Mm.

[00:49:12] vincent: That is an example of a [00:49:15] micro interaction, and that is where all of this technology is heading [00:49:20] because you can’t write a blog post for each individual person [00:49:25] because it’s too specific. And what AI is allowing you to do [00:49:30] is to be able to actually scale the technology to be able to make this possible.

[00:49:33] Mm, because in [00:49:35] the past, the only way that that was possible is in a very high ticket [00:49:40] offer. The where it has to be priced that way, because that’s how much time it takes to [00:49:45] deliver on that. And so just like these mobile apps are now becoming accessible, just like [00:49:50] websites have become accessible to small businesses, building AI clones [00:49:55] of the personal brand.

[00:49:56] Allows me in the middle of the night, like I might wake [00:50:00] up and go, ha, I got this idea for a new podcast. I wanna start and I’m, I’m curious what [00:50:05] AJ and Rory think about like these two names for a new podcast.

[00:50:08] Because we got opinions.

[00:50:09] vincent: [00:50:10] Because you got opinions, right? And I can throw it into the BBG light app.[00:50:15]

[00:50:15] Ask brand bot and brand bot can not only give me the [00:50:20] answer. But then like I don’t have to be embarrassed that like I gave, I, I asked a [00:50:25] question and I got the answer, but like, maybe I was like too nervous to ask that question [00:50:30] myself. Right. There’s a lot of topics where you might, yeah, that’s good. You [00:50:35] might have a question, but you might be too nervous to actually ask that question.

[00:50:38] I think, and I think that happens a [00:50:40] lot. Yeah. In all different topics. Sure. It’s like there’s lots of things we wanna ask, but we’re like, we don’t wanna sound [00:50:45] dumb or I don’t wanna be wrong. And so instead of doing the thing that we feel really called to do, I. [00:50:50] We actually just hold it in. Yeah. And we don’t even live out our life’s calling.

[00:50:53] And these are, [00:50:55] these are giving us tools to go, Hey, when you’re not completely, you know, [00:51:00] yeah. Certain about what to ask. Like this is a forum to do that. Um, so I, I wanna give [00:51:05] everyone an opportunity, um, to learn more about Viton and these personal brand apps. And so [00:51:10] if you guys are listening to the show or you’re catching up on the show notes, that you can go to the show notes and [00:51:15] grab this link and just click on it.

[00:51:16] Uh, but I would encourage you guys like, explore. All right. [00:51:20] It’s not gonna be for everyone right now, but just like social media [00:51:25] and websites, like this is not a fad. This is a trend and it’s [00:51:30] trending in a mass wide scale offering, um, that [00:51:35] everyone is likely going to need it at some point. Mm-hmm. Uh, because of this is, this is the [00:51:40] rise of the content economy.

[00:51:41] It’s like. It’s, it’s not even rising. It’s here. Mm-hmm. Right. [00:51:45] It’s a, it’s an over, it’s, it’s a flooding of the marketplace. So if you go to vien, [00:51:50] V-Y-T-E-N, [00:51:55] vien.com/bbg, then Vincent and his team will know that you heard this podcast, that you have [00:52:00] some prelim information, that you have some context around this, and that’ll help them tailor, [00:52:05] uh, this conversation to everything that you heard on the show.

[00:52:07] So. [00:52:10] viton.com/bbg. Now, Vincent, before I let you go, um, I have uh, just [00:52:15] two last quick questions. Mm-hmm. Um, for everyone. So here’s what I want to [00:52:20] ask you as you’re heading out. Uh, number one, where can people go to just connect with [00:52:25] you?

[00:52:25] vincent: Yeah, for me. So on Instagram, Vincent Faban, um, I think there will be a link in the [00:52:30] show notes.

[00:52:30] Um, the company is Viton Apps on Instagram, Viton apps. Um, as well, [00:52:35] you can also connect with me on LinkedIn.

[00:52:37] Awesome. And then what is your favorite app? [00:52:40]

[00:52:40] vincent: Oh man, that is such a great question. Like right now it’s the aura ring. [00:52:45] Oh. And so I, I’m wearing an aura ring, um, right now, and every single thing that I’m [00:52:50] doing this year.

[00:52:51] Is focused on being more rested, more restored. [00:52:55] Um, it’s been a few months since I’ve had a drink of alcohol and not because like I wanted to give up [00:53:00] drinking, but because I am like a hundred percent focused right now on just having [00:53:05] good routines and, you know, the Aura, the Aura Ring app has an Aura advisor in it.[00:53:10]

[00:53:10] And so, you know, there’s a lot of data that it gives you, and it used to be like, you’d have to read about it, [00:53:15] but just like I shared on this episode with like the micro interactions, like I can actually ask the AA [00:53:20] ring, like, Hey, my, my resting heart rate was, you know, pretty low last night. Like, what are the [00:53:25] three things that I can do to be able, uh, to improve that?

[00:53:28] And so it’s, yeah, it’s been [00:53:30] a ride that I’ve, I’ve been on, but I’m, I’ve been really excited

[00:53:34] about it. Love that. [00:53:35] And last question.

[00:53:36] vincent: Yep.

[00:53:36] What does influential mean to you?

[00:53:39] vincent: [00:53:40] Influential means to me, like going out and making an impact.

[00:53:43] Mm-hmm.

[00:53:44] vincent: And you know, [00:53:45] the, I think part of the challenge today in like to today’s society is, the word [00:53:50] influencer is different than being influential [00:53:55] because I think of an influe as somebody who’s like pedaling [00:54:00] something, whereas being influential is not with [00:54:05] a goal that is selfish.

[00:54:07] But it’s actually a goal of being [00:54:10] selfless. Mm-hmm. And going out and to be able to allow yourself [00:54:15] to serve others for the improvement of their life, not your own.

[00:54:19] [00:54:20] Oh, that’s good. I like that answer. Uh, I love the difference between influencer and [00:54:25] influential. Um, and I would say that you have been super influential in [00:54:30] our journey at BBG and continue to be for our entire community.

[00:54:34] So thank you so [00:54:35] much for being on the So show. So many great highlights, so much wisdom, and I just love learning [00:54:40] about. What’s happening in the marketplace that we don’t get to talk about in everyday life. So y’all, [00:54:45] again, go to vi ten.com/bbg. Uh, check it out. Learn about this [00:54:50] trend in personal brand apps.

[00:54:51] And if you wanna connect with Vincent, it’s at Vincent fam van. Um, and you can [00:54:55] check ’em out on all social media channels. Y’all, we’d love you. Thanks for tuning in. Uh, stick [00:55:00] around for the recap episode, which will be coming up soon. We’ll see you next time on the Influential [00:55:05] Personal Brand.

Ep 585: 5 Simple Things You Can Do Every Day to Improve Your Health | Dr. Helena Popovic Recap

[00:00:00] You think you’re healthy? But the truth is you’re probably [00:00:05] not. You see, I just came off of this amazing interview on the [00:00:10] influential personal brand podcast with Dr. Helena Papa Vic, and she is a [00:00:15] leading doctor in brain health from Australia. But it wasn’t just this interview that makes me [00:00:20] say that.

[00:00:20] I have been on my own health journey for the last 18 months [00:00:25] and a very intentional. Research driven, data-driven approach to [00:00:30] understanding why I was feeling the way that I was and why I was saying [00:00:35] I’m healthy and realizing I’m actually not, you see [00:00:40] what happened is I thought because I didn’t eat sugar that.[00:00:45]

[00:00:45] I wasn’t eating sugar. And what I mean by that is I’m not a big dessert person. I don’t have [00:00:50] cookies. I’m not a heavy like, you know, sugary drink person. I [00:00:55] don’t drink alcohol, so I don’t drink soda. I, I, I did the healthy [00:01:00] thing, don’t eat a lot of processed foods. And on a, a very important [00:01:05] conversation that I had with a health coach at the time he challenged me and he said, [00:01:10] I don’t believe that you don’t eat sugar.

[00:01:12] And I think that you’re fooling yourself [00:01:15] just because you don’t eat dessert. Soda and alcohol doesn’t mean that you don’t eat [00:01:20] sugar. And I was confused and I said, what are you talking about? And so I did an [00:01:25] audit of my pantry, of his request and I learned, oh my gosh, I eat [00:01:30] so much sugar. And I didn’t know it.

[00:01:32] And it wasn’t just that if you would’ve asked me a [00:01:35] year ago, Hey, aj, do you, do you put a lot of oils into your food? I would’ve been like, no. [00:01:40] Occasionally I cook with olive oil, but that’s it. That was also a lie. Oils were in [00:01:45] almost every single condiment we had. They were almost in every single box food that we had.[00:01:50]

[00:01:50] They were in every skin product, face, product, lotion, conditioner, [00:01:55] shampoo sunscreen. If I owned it, it had oils in [00:02:00] it. And again, I’m not saying any of these things are necessarily [00:02:05] bad. But in the amount that we are taking them in as an American [00:02:10] society, our bodies were not meant to sustain them at the levels that we’re [00:02:15] consuming them.

[00:02:15] So what I wanna share with you today, I’m no health practitioner. [00:02:20] I am not a doctor, but these are five simple things that I believe that [00:02:25] you can do every single day to get and stay healthy. [00:02:30] Now if you like some of these ’cause they are free, simple and in my opinion, [00:02:35] pretty easy. Then I would encourage you to go listen to the entire conversation that I had with [00:02:40] Dr.

[00:02:40] Helena Popovic because this is not just about being healthy physically. [00:02:45] This is about internal health. This is about gut health, cardiovascular help. This is about [00:02:50] brain health. This is about doing the things today that will prolong your life, [00:02:55] not just so that you’re older, but that you live a happier, healthier life as you age.

[00:02:59] [00:03:00] So here’s the first thing. Start every day in [00:03:05] prayer or gratitude. There are scientific research studies that [00:03:10] prove that when you start your day in a gratitude [00:03:15] state, that you have lowered your cholesterol, lowered your [00:03:20] cortisol, that you have, you know, decreased the stress hormones, IE cortisol, [00:03:25] but you are actually starting your day in a way that you are positioning your mind, [00:03:30] your heart, and your body to receive what comes at you throughout [00:03:35] the day.

[00:03:35] Right. And not only that, it’s like if you start every day with the attitude [00:03:40] of Thank you Lord, for this day, thank you for breath in my lungs. Thank you for [00:03:45] eyes to see. Thank you for ears to hear. Thank you for legs to walk with. If you just remember the [00:03:50] most fundamental things that we forget in the busy hecticness, hecticness of [00:03:55] life, it puts things in perspective that already.

[00:03:59] That you [00:04:00] have been given the gift of another day that already that you have breath in [00:04:05] your lungs and you have feet to walk on, and you have eyes to see [00:04:10] and, and ears to hear the little, you know, whispers of your children outside your door. [00:04:15] And to see the sunrise that comes up. And on the days where I’m like a little grumpy that [00:04:20] I’m up when the sunrise happens, I remember that.

[00:04:22] I have eyes to see the sunrise today. [00:04:25] And when I’m a little frustrated that my kids are interrupting my morning routine, I remember [00:04:30] that I get the pleasure of ha happy, healthy children in my house. And when [00:04:35] I’m a little grumpy that I have to get in my car and drive through traffic, I, [00:04:40] I remember that I have the privilege of a car that works, that’s [00:04:45] reliable and that I have a place to go to see people that I enjoy getting to work with.[00:04:50]

[00:04:50] That’s a perspective shift. That’s a heart stance of [00:04:55] gratitude versus ingratitude. And if we’re not proactively choosing [00:05:00] gratitude by default, we are unintentionally choosing ingratitude. [00:05:05] But that’s the first thing is just start your day in prayer and thankfulness and gratitude [00:05:10] that you are alive today there.

[00:05:12] And there’s a reason behind that in that if you [00:05:15] are alive today, there’s breath in your lungs, there’s a reason. And that doesn’t mean it’s [00:05:20] gonna be an easy day, but there is purpose in the day. So that’s number one. Number two, [00:05:25] this is a little bit more tactical and I have it on right now. So if you’re watching my video, I’m gonna stick my [00:05:30] shoe up in the air and I’m gonna show you this little thing, right?

[00:05:33] This is a pedometer. [00:05:35] Yes, I know that you can have an app on your phone, but I’m trying to stay tech free. So I bought myself this little [00:05:40] pedometer and I track my steps and that is my own little competition [00:05:45] to make sure that I am moving every single day. See, I set a goal at the beginning of this year.

[00:05:49] We’re in [00:05:50] 2025 when we’re filming this to, to walk 10,000 steps a day. [00:05:55] And when I set that goal, I didn’t realize how much walking that was, to be honest, because I [00:06:00] work a lot and I’m at my desk a lot and I didn’t realize that, you know, 10,000 steps [00:06:05] could be 90 minutes to two hours of walking every single day.

[00:06:09] And [00:06:10] so I’ve had to get really creative. And I will tell you what will happen on an average [00:06:15] day if I am at my computer, like a day at today, where I’ve done tons of video [00:06:20] recordings. Here’s what starts to happen. I’m gonna stand up, so you may only see half of me, but. I do [00:06:25] this. Yes, like a crazy person in line at the grocery store.

[00:06:28] I’m marching in line [00:06:30] like a crazy person. While I’m cooking. I’m marching in line while I am drying my hair. I am [00:06:35] marching in place while I’m curling my hair. I am marching in place. I’m March in place all the [00:06:40] time. My kids just now, oh, mom’s marching again. Mom’s marching again, y’all [00:06:45] listen. Movement matters.

[00:06:47] And it doesn’t have to be 10,000 steps a day. You [00:06:50] don’t have to get a pedometer. It could be your movement of choice. But the point is, it’s like, [00:06:55] do not expect what you do not inspect. And it’s not a chore. [00:07:00] It’s a privilege that you get the opportunity to go and do these things, right? And [00:07:05] so challenge yourself to move, make it a competition, gamify [00:07:10] it.

[00:07:10] Do whatever you have to do to get yourself in the mindset to go, oh, [00:07:15] shoot. Right, because I’m right now. I’m only at a thousand steps and it’s almost [00:07:20] 2:00 PM I got a lot of moving to do between now and the end of the day. I [00:07:25] would not know that if I was not tracking it. So give yourself [00:07:30] some tools to do the things that are necessary for you to be and stay healthy.

[00:07:34] And moving [00:07:35] every day is one of those things. Number three, cut alcohol. And I, [00:07:40] I say that not because I think alcohol is necessarily evil or bad. I say it [00:07:45] because if it does not add something to your life, then why are you doing it? And to say [00:07:50] that, oh, it tastes good, or anything else is like, well, there’s plenty of other things that taste good too.[00:07:55]

[00:07:55] Don’t rationalize, rationalize yourself into something that isn’t necessarily [00:08:00] good for your long-term health. Do you have to cut it completely? Do you have to cut it [00:08:05] forever? Maybe not. But cut it for the day, right? [00:08:10] Give yourself the opportunity to detoxify your body so that you can rest without it.

[00:08:14] You [00:08:15] can think without it. You can relax without it. You can have fun without it. And so my [00:08:20] third tip would be to cut alcohol. Challenge yourself for a day, a week, a month, a [00:08:25] year. But see what life looks like without it and see what you can replace it with. [00:08:30] Water. What if for every single time that you went for that glass of wine, instead [00:08:35] you went for that glass of water, what would that do for the actual internal health [00:08:40] of your body?

[00:08:41] Number four, cut sugar. And I’m not saying that you shouldn’t [00:08:45] enjoy sugar ever, but it should be a treat. It should be something that you look [00:08:50] forward to enjoy, not an expectation that you have every night after dinner, and most [00:08:55] certainly not a hidden ingredient in every single thing that you eat and drink throughout the day.[00:09:00]

[00:09:00] And you can only cut sugar if you know all the things that you’re eating that has [00:09:05] sugar in it, which means you have to become obsessive about reading labels. Or even [00:09:10] better yet, don’t read labels. If it has a label, just don’t buy it. [00:09:15] Right. That’s a, that’s a call back to food from the Earth, right? Did it [00:09:20] grow in a tree?

[00:09:20] Did it grow in a vine? Did it come from the earth? Right? Is it a whole food? Right? What if you [00:09:25] never had to look at a label to see how many grams of sugar it had in it because there was no label? [00:09:30] ’cause it was a whole food, right? We call it our family perimeter Shopping. Right. That [00:09:35] means that you never go down the aisles, right?

[00:09:37] ’cause there’s not fresh food down the aisle. So we’re perimeter [00:09:40] shoppers. And we really challenge ourselves to never go down the aisles. And it’s, that means [00:09:45] it’s in the produce sec section, it’s in the meat section, it’s in the dairy section but it’s [00:09:50] all, all around the perimeter of the grocery store.

[00:09:52] So what would it look like for you to become a perimeter [00:09:55] shopper at your local grocery store? And last, but certainly not least. This is the [00:10:00] fifth quick, easy thing that you can do on a daily basis to get and stay healthy, is [00:10:05] to go to bed earlier, get more sleep. Okay. [00:10:10] Give your body time to rest. Give your brain the chance to rejuvenate [00:10:15] and detoxify.

[00:10:16] Let your body rest. That is a, a, an [00:10:20] easy thing. Said, not always an easy thing done. And I have two little boys at home [00:10:25] and a husband who travels and a business that is growing and a, a growing [00:10:30] team. And there’s lots of demands on my schedule, which means it’s even more [00:10:35] important that I prioritize my bedtime.

[00:10:39] Because [00:10:40] a well-rested AJ is a happy aj and everybody [00:10:45] wants you to be happy, right? And I love this quote, I think Mark Twain said it [00:10:50] that you know, fatigue makes cowards of us all. And that’s because we [00:10:55] don’t think as clearly and we’re not as healthy or [00:11:00] happy, and we’re stressed and our internal hormone levels are in disarray when we [00:11:05] don’t have enough rest.

[00:11:06] Right. A sleep deprivation is a real thing and you, [00:11:10] you may not even know that you’re sleep deprived, but if you have brain fog, if you are [00:11:15] suffering from depression or anxiety, and I’m not saying it’s only because of sleep, but a [00:11:20] lack of sleep only increases all of those things. So get to bed [00:11:25] earlier, right?

[00:11:26] Create a sleep routine that helps you go to sleep and stay asleep . [00:11:30] That is a simple thing that you can do that allows your body to rest to prepare for the day [00:11:35] ahead. So those are five simple things. Again, start every day in prayer, get [00:11:40] moving. Right? In my case, get a pedometer, cut, sugar, cut alcohol, and go to bed [00:11:45] earlier.

Ep 584: Unlocking the Power of Brain Health for Personal and Professional Success with Dr. Helena Popovic

[00:00:00] AJ: Welcome to the Influential Personal Brand podcast, AJ Vaden here. And [00:00:05] I am so excited, uh, to get to spend the next hour listening to the [00:00:10] amazing accent of Dr. Elena Vic. And, uh, she is [00:00:15] actually joining us from Australia, which we were just catching up about. I had the [00:00:20] amazing opportunity to live in Australia, uh, right as I was graduating college, and it’s.

[00:00:24] A [00:00:25] very near and dear place to my heart. So, uh, regardless of what I’m talking about today, you’re [00:00:30] gonna get to enjoy this amazing accent. Uh, not to mention amazing knowledge, [00:00:35] uh, from Dr. Helena and y’all as I normally do. I kind of give you a couple of [00:00:40] reasons of why this episode is important to stick around for, and I always find that it’s [00:00:45] important you know, what you’re about to get into so that you can commit for the hour.

[00:00:48] And if it’s not [00:00:50] for you, I’ll tell you, but there are some episodes that are just for everyone. And [00:00:55] today is one of those episodes because we’re gonna be talking about something that you will [00:01:00] have for the rest of your life and you need to know how to take care of it, how to nurture [00:01:05] it, uh, and how to support it.

[00:01:06] And it’s your brain, right? Like we need our brains. [00:01:10] Um, and so we’re gonna be talking a lot about brain health today, because that is her area of [00:01:15] expertise and specialty. So here’s what we’re gonna be talking about and why you should stick around understanding the [00:01:20] impact of brain health on your success.

[00:01:22] Okay. And, uh, that doesn’t matter if it’s personal or [00:01:25] professional, but brain health matters for longevity and a healthy longevity. [00:01:30] At that, we’re gonna talk about some importance in, uh, proactive measures that you can take to [00:01:35] prevent cognitive decline. And then also, uh, some practical strategies, which is what [00:01:40] I am most excited about, uh, for enhancing mental performance.

[00:01:44] Uh, I [00:01:45] actually selfishly shared with her, I’m gonna talk to her about how to get rid of brain fog, um, [00:01:50] at AKA. Mom brain. So if she can solve that problem for me today, it’s gonna be a [00:01:55] major win. Uh, but that is why you need to stick around for this entire episode, ’cause we’re gonna be covering [00:02:00] all of that and so much more.

[00:02:01] But let me formally introduce you to Dr. Helena and [00:02:05] then we’re gonna get to the goods of this interview, which is actually why you’re here. So, [00:02:10] Dr. Vic, uh, you have done so many things. You are a renowned doctor. [00:02:15] Speaker, you’re an award-winning author specializing in brain health, positive aging, and I [00:02:20] love that term, positive aging, but also with a heavy emphasis on dementia [00:02:25] prevention, which is a big part of your story and I’d love to hear more about that.

[00:02:28] Uh, but here’s, [00:02:30] here’s one of the things I think is really important is that you’re on a mission to empower people at any [00:02:35] stage of life on how to boost, boost brain function. Right [00:02:40] now, I don’t imagine that you’ve started out. Your professional [00:02:45] career post-college in academia with that? How’d you get into this?[00:02:50]

[00:02:50] DR HP: Well, it was rather circuitous route, um, in 2010, so that makes it [00:02:55] 15 years ago, shortly after my mother passed away with lung cancer, I was there with [00:03:00] my father and I happened to open the fridge and find a box of a medication called [00:03:05] tig, which is sometimes prescribed for people with Alzheimer’s disease.

[00:03:08] Hmm. I found it in the butter [00:03:10] compartment of the fridge, and I thought. I don’t know anyone with Alzheimer’s disease. So I asked dad, [00:03:15] who’s this medication for? And he said, oh, your mom said it was good for my memory. [00:03:20] Um, so I stick a patch on every day. I don’t think it does much good, but happy [00:03:25] wife, good life.

[00:03:27] That was how I first discovered that my [00:03:30] father had been diagnosed with Alzheimer’s disease because I’d been living a thousand miles away [00:03:35] from my parents. So I only flew. To live at home again, to look [00:03:40] after my mother, after her diagnosis. Um, and so I had assumed that dad’s [00:03:45] confusion and depression obviously, and withdrawal, they were all symptoms of grief [00:03:50] because in an older person, grief, depression, [00:03:55] dementia, very similar symptoms, and it’s hard to tease apart.

[00:03:58] So I’d assumed it was grief, [00:04:00] but when I tracked down my father’s gp. Doctor, he confirmed the [00:04:05] diagnosis. And here’s the thing, such was the stigma around dementia in my [00:04:10] Serbian family of origin that my parents had not even told [00:04:15] their only child me. Wow. Their devoted daughter who also happened to be a doctor [00:04:20] that her father had Alzheimer’s disease.

[00:04:23] And so, and, [00:04:25] and in every, you know, when, when I found out about it, everybody said, oh look, just. Go back to [00:04:30] your life. There’s nothing you can do to help him. Put him in a nursing home and [00:04:35] don’t waste your time because there’s nothing you can do to help. Wow. There’s not like, there is no [00:04:40] cure. And yes, my medical training says the few medications that are [00:04:45] around are not really doing anything.

[00:04:47] Um, and there’s nothing you can do. But [00:04:50] I just didn’t accept that because there’s also something else we’re taught on day one of medical school, and that is [00:04:55] half of what you learn. In medical school, we’ll be out of date by the time [00:05:00] you graduate. The problem is you won’t know which half because that’s how, that’s a [00:05:05] scary thought,

[00:05:05] AJ: isn’t it?

[00:05:05] Isn’t

[00:05:06] DR HP: it a scary thought? But it is. It’s actually been, you know, [00:05:10] pushed me to, to keep learning because there are so many things that are just so out of [00:05:15] date that I learned, okay, it was a while ago, but nonetheless. So anyway, I thought, no, not good enough. [00:05:20] So I did a really deep dive, learned every, like, read all the papers I could from.

[00:05:24] [00:05:25] All, all corners of the globe about brain health and dementia. And I discovered something [00:05:30] that changed my world, and that is that just because something doesn’t come in a pill [00:05:35] doesn’t mean it isn’t powerful. Mm. Sleep, [00:05:40] stress management, food, exercise, music, art, social [00:05:45] stimulation, time in nature. I could go on and on.

[00:05:47] All of these things are medicine for our [00:05:50] mind as well as medicine for our body. Mm.

[00:05:52] And

[00:05:52] DR HP: so I applied all these things to my father and [00:05:55] I was able to look after him, keep him at home for 10 years. Wow. He passed away peacefully in [00:06:00] his sleep, shortly before Covid and people, you know, when people thought, but how come [00:06:05] he’s not getting worse?

[00:06:05] Dementia is supposed to get worse. He’s still recognizes you. He’s still [00:06:10] independent. His memory, he short-term memory was very poor, but mainly he just needed [00:06:15] supervision, whereas people forget how to eat, forget how to talk. Mm-hmm. Uh, can [00:06:20] no longer verbalize, can no longer dress themselves. None of that happened to dad.

[00:06:24] And so people [00:06:25] start asking me like, what are you doing? Do you think it’ll help me?

[00:06:29] Mm.

[00:06:29] DR HP: And I [00:06:30] said, absolutely. Well, there’s certainly, well, all the evidence suggests that at [00:06:35] any age or stage of life, we can and should be boosting our brain. Because [00:06:40] here’s the thing from our. The, the brain changes that can lead [00:06:45] to Alzheimer’s disease start 30 years before we get any [00:06:50] symptoms.

[00:06:50] Mm-hmm.

[00:06:50] DR HP: So you’re never too young to start boosting your brain and thinking about brain [00:06:55] health, but not only that, then it’s gonna help you be more productive, um, better [00:07:00] thinking, more creative. During your working life and everything you do [00:07:05] now will also go a long way to helping you prevent dementia as you age.

[00:07:09] So [00:07:10] I’m on a mission, I love that to, to send this message to everybody. Don’t be [00:07:15] complacent about your brain. Don’t believe any doctor, neurologist, [00:07:20] geriatrician who still say to you, you know, there’s nothing you can do. Get your affairs in order. [00:07:25] When you start to show signs of cognitive decline, because.

[00:07:29] You know, I’ve written [00:07:30] two books now on all the things that you can do and, and people, you know, have [00:07:35] written back and just gone, I’ve got my life back, you know, I’ve got my brain back.

[00:07:38] AJ: Okay. This is gonna seem like an [00:07:40] overly simplified question, but what is brain [00:07:45] health? Right? And I think that’s like even just asking like, what is brain health?

[00:07:49] Because I’m sitting [00:07:50] here going, I read a ton of health books. I’m very into nutrition [00:07:55] and sleep, and. Kind of on a health journey of myself and it’s like, I could not [00:08:00] tell you now. Yes. It’s like, yes, be outside and keep your brain active and keep it, [00:08:05] you know, eat healthy. Sure. But I don’t recall any time I’ve ever [00:08:10] been to my doctor and the history of my 42 years on this [00:08:15] planet, almost 42 of having a conversation.

[00:08:18] Let’s talk about your brain [00:08:20] health today, aj. So. What is brain health and just kinda like walk us through [00:08:25] like what are the simplest, most proactive daily things we can do to keep our brains [00:08:30] healthy?

[00:08:31] DR HP: Okay. Firstly, your doctor hasn’t talked to you about it because it’s not at the [00:08:35] forefront of their mind.

[00:08:36] They’re not really trained to think about it. A lot of [00:08:40] this information is very new. We probably learned more about the brain in the last [00:08:45] two decades. In, you know, this century than we did in all the previous centuries [00:08:50] combined.

[00:08:50] Hmm.

[00:08:50] DR HP: So it is a new area. Well, it doesn’t feel new to me ’cause I’ve been doing it for a couple of [00:08:55] decades, but still a few decades is still a very new area.

[00:08:57] So that’s why your doctor’s not [00:09:00] talking about it. And probably because you looks at you and go, you’re young, you don’t have to worry about it yet, because people [00:09:05] don’t realize how early those changes start taking place. So that’s [00:09:10] why people don’t bring it up. And also, uh, they just don’t wanna know about it because it’s so [00:09:15] scary.

[00:09:15] Dementia is more feared than cancer, and in fact, not in your country, [00:09:20] but in my country, dementia is the number one cause of death in Australian women, in [00:09:25] UK women. I think it’s maybe number three in this country, but yeah. [00:09:30] Wow. So, so it, it is a big deal. What does brain health mean? Well, it, it [00:09:35] actually means that everything we do.

[00:09:38] Everything we eat, [00:09:40] everything we experience actually leaves an imprint on our brain. And that can be [00:09:45] a positive imprint or a negative imprint. And what I mean by that is [00:09:50] we, you’ve probably heard of the term neuroplasticity.

[00:09:53] Mm-hmm.

[00:09:53] DR HP: Our brain [00:09:55] changes in response to each different activity performs. [00:10:00] And what that means is we can grow new brain cells.

[00:10:04] [00:10:05] We can lose brain cells. You know, you have an alcohol binge and you [00:10:10] know, you’ve, you’ve damaged quite a few brain cells. You know, you go for, [00:10:15] you know, you go for an intense exercise session, you know, a hit, [00:10:20] um, high intensity session. You’ve built a few brain cells so we [00:10:25] can make new brain cells, we can make new connections between brain cells.

[00:10:28] You do some really [00:10:30] intense, um, learning. Challenge yourself. Learn something new. You can. [00:10:35] You, you actually make new, new connections between brain cells. We can establish whole new circuits. We [00:10:40] can even change which cells perform, which functions, and this has revolutionized things like stroke [00:10:45] treatment.

[00:10:45] Mm-hmm. We used to think if somebody had a stroke and damaged part of their body, if they didn’t [00:10:50] get matter after a few better, after a few months of rehab, they probably never would.

[00:10:54] Hmm. [00:10:55] We

[00:10:55] DR HP: now know that with a specific intense form of therapy known as CIT, it stands for. [00:11:00] Constraint induced therapy cells from undamaged parts of the brain can be [00:11:05] recruited to take over the loss functions.

[00:11:07] Wow.

[00:11:07] DR HP: And I’ll give you an example of how they do that. It, it’s [00:11:10] relevant because you can extrapolate this to improve any brain function if you think you’re not [00:11:15] good at it. So basically they’ll get, say this is, say you’ve got, uh, the [00:11:20] left side was undamaged by the stroke, and the right hand is paralyzed. So they’re gonna [00:11:25] strap up the left side and say, you can’t use it.

[00:11:28] And they’re gonna put a glass of water, a [00:11:30] few millimeters in front of the fingertips of the damaged hand and say, try and touch the glass. [00:11:35] The person’s gonna go, I can’t. It’s, it’s paralyzed. Well just focus and try, try, try. And, [00:11:40] because it’s so close, they touch the glass and as soon as they’ve touch the glass, they push it a little bit further [00:11:45] away.

[00:11:45] They try again. And they practice this for several hours a day. But over the course of a few [00:11:50] months, they will regain the use of that paralyzed limb. And here’s the thing, even if your [00:11:55] stroke was years ago. You can still regain function. Never too late. It doesn’t [00:12:00] seem to ever be too late.

[00:12:01] Hmm.

[00:12:02] DR HP: Um, and when they scan the person’s brain, what’s [00:12:05] happened is cells have been recruited from other parts of the brain [00:12:10] and grow new nerve fibers.

[00:12:12] Fascinating. Isn’t that wonderful? Fascinat. So, so don’t ever [00:12:15] think that you can’t improve something, because in my experience, there’s always [00:12:20] something you can do to make, you know, to, to improve a situation [00:12:25] Now. There is no short answer to what are all the different things we can do to boost our [00:12:30] brain, because I’ve just said to you that everything we do has an impact on our brain.

[00:12:34] You know, [00:12:35] you, you wanna, you, you wanna bullet train to dementia, then drink to excess [00:12:40] smoke and vape, um, do no exercise, spend all day [00:12:45] indoors and just do, learn nothing new. Mm. I mean, that is a bullet train to [00:12:50] dementia. So. Let’s flip it around. I mean, in my, in my latest book, I’ve got 80 different ways that you [00:12:55] can boost your brain.

[00:12:56] I don’t think we’ll get through all of them today, but, but [00:13:00] it, it’s even hard to tease out which are the most important. But I’m [00:13:05] gonna start with cult, probably one that will, may surprise you. Culture cultivate [00:13:10] good relationships. Mm-hmm. Good relationships aren’t just a feel good thing. And, and I [00:13:15] mean, with family, with friends, with neighbors, with colleagues, clients.[00:13:20]

[00:13:20] Everyone you come in contact with, because good [00:13:25] relationships are the number one thing that will [00:13:30] boost one of the number one things that will boost your brain. [00:13:35] But it is the number one thing that will keep you healthy, happy, and live the [00:13:40] longest throughout your life. So why do you

[00:13:40] AJ: think that is?

[00:13:41] DR HP: Because good relationships [00:13:45] lower production of the hormone cortisol, which is our stress hormone.

[00:13:49] Reduce [00:13:50] inflammation, strengthen our immune system, make us feel [00:13:55] safe. Mm-hmm. Release a cocktail of feel good chemicals. All of these things are essential [00:14:00] for good brain function and good body function. You know, you want a strong immune system. You don’t want inflammation. These [00:14:05] are two main drivers of chronic disease.

[00:14:07] If good relationships are an antidote to that. [00:14:10] Then they’re gonna go a long way to preventing those diseases.

[00:14:12] AJ: Hmm. So I have a question for you [00:14:15] because as you’re talking about that, I can’t get it out of my brain. What you said earlier [00:14:20] about the number one leading cause of death for Australian women, and [00:14:25] you said another country as well, the uk.

[00:14:26] The UK is dementia.

[00:14:28] DR HP: Mm-hmm.

[00:14:29] AJ: Why [00:14:30] is that? I, is that connected to a lack of strong relationships in community? Like

[00:14:34] DR HP: what we are [00:14:35] not a hundred percent sure. That is still a big area of research. Several reasons have been [00:14:40] postulated. One is the estrogen hypothesis.

[00:14:44] Mm-hmm. [00:14:45]

[00:14:45] DR HP: When, when a woman hits menopause, there is a very abrupt drop in estrogen [00:14:50] levels.

[00:14:50] Estrogen is a really vital, um, hormone for good brain [00:14:55] health. Yeah, on a lot of reasons. You know, estrogen helps us use [00:15:00] glucose for energy in the brain. Estrogen actually, uh, [00:15:05] helps to keep nerve cells healthy. You know, brain cells healthy, [00:15:10] uh, helps to eliminate toxins. So you suddenly lose that hormone. You [00:15:15] suddenly lose a lot of protective functions in your brain.[00:15:20]

[00:15:20] Um, what we’ve found is that women who have. Early, you know, [00:15:25] premature menopause, which means a removal of her uterus or [00:15:30] ovaries significantly increased risk of dementia [00:15:35] unless they get hormone replacement therapy. Interesting. [00:15:40] So it does seem to be there, there may be an estrogen connection. [00:15:45] Um, and a couple, yes.

[00:15:49] AJ: Gotta [00:15:50] cut this. I got

[00:15:53] cough jobs

[00:15:53] AJ: for you. I swallowed the wrong [00:15:55] way. Hold on.[00:16:00]

[00:16:02] I was trying not to cough and swallowed and then I made [00:16:05] it worse.[00:16:10]

[00:16:13] Okay. I’m gonna pop [00:16:15] this in just to make sure I don’t cough anymore. Okay, hold on. Now I have watery [00:16:20] eyes.

[00:16:23] All right. [00:16:25] All right. So I want you to start back up with [00:16:30] when, uh, women start, like early menopause because they [00:16:35] lost an ovary or the uterus. So can we start right there? [00:16:40]

[00:16:40] DR HP: Yes. Okay.

[00:16:41] AJ: Ready? Go.

[00:16:44] DR HP: If a [00:16:45] woman has premature menopause, in other words, she has her uterus removed or [00:16:50] ovaries removed, usually for good reason, not just willy-nilly, um, that significantly [00:16:55] increases her risk of getting dementia because it, it’s an abrupt [00:17:00] cessation of estrogen production.

[00:17:02] So there, there really does seem to be an [00:17:05] estrogen connection there. Other things have been postulated. Um, [00:17:10] when a woman sustains a head injury, she doesn’t. Recover as well. As a man, [00:17:15] we are not sure why, possibly because men tend to have stronger neck muscles, so maybe [00:17:20] when she has head injury, there’s more rattling of the brain, more, more damaged [00:17:25] connections.

[00:17:25] There could be. In the past, women were less [00:17:30] educated, had less stimulating work, so they didn’t get the same mental stimulation. [00:17:35] That men did.

[00:17:36] Interesting. Um,

[00:17:37] DR HP: perhaps women are less physically active and, [00:17:40] and, you know, apart from relationships, physical ex, you must move [00:17:45] for your brain. Forget the, you know, I wanna go to the gym to lose weight.

[00:17:49] [00:17:50] Who cares? That’s the least important reason to go to the gym. But for brain health, it’s for brain health. And it’s [00:17:55] not, it’s every aspect of physical exercise. Sorry, I’m transitioning very quickly from [00:18:00] relationships to exercise, but, but. You have to move if you wanna maintain your brain [00:18:05] health.

[00:18:05] AJ: Like how much movement.

[00:18:07] DR HP: Okay. Firstly, I’ll give the three [00:18:10] types. Aerobic exercise, endurance training, strength training, [00:18:15] strong muscles equate to a strong mind and balance [00:18:20] as well. Good balance. So it appear, it [00:18:25] appears that, you know, the 150 minutes per week is probably. [00:18:30] Probably o you know enough, but if you can do a bit more, that’s great.

[00:18:34] Doing [00:18:35] high intensity interval training is really good, is better than just low level. But, [00:18:40] but let me just say, I don’t wanna put people off. Any movement is better than no movement, even five minutes a [00:18:45] day. So, for, and, and the reason, okay, people go, but why is exercise so good for the brain? [00:18:50] Yes, we get more blood flowing to the brain.

[00:18:53] More oxygen, more nutrients. [00:18:55] But there. You’ve heard of the gut brain connection? Sure. There’s a muscle [00:19:00] brain connection. When we move our muscles, they produce a cocktail of chemicals called myokines. [00:19:05] Scientists have tried to bottle these, but there’s too many of them and they have too many complex functions.[00:19:10]

[00:19:10] Myokines circulate in our blood to go to all our organs and keep our organs [00:19:15] healthy in various ways, particularly in relation to the brain. We produce a chemical when [00:19:20] we exercise. Whether it’s weight training or whether it’s, um, sprinting or [00:19:25] jogging or cycling or swimming or dancing, we produce a chemical in the brain called [00:19:30] BDNF.

[00:19:30] It stands for brain derived neurotrophic factor, and [00:19:35] this neurotransmitter actually stimulates the growth of new brain cells and new [00:19:40] connections between brain cells. And here in the states, they’ve actually done, um, studies [00:19:45] on school children where if they do. Um, exercise before their [00:19:50] exams, before their harder subjects.

[00:19:51] They do better because our brain does perform at its [00:19:55] best in that first hour after we engage in any sort of physical activity. [00:20:00] So, mm.

[00:20:01] AJ: So I have a question for you then.

[00:20:04] Yeah.

[00:20:04] AJ: [00:20:05] Knowing that we have this sitting epidemic Mm. Um, behind [00:20:10] laptops and behind screens and just very sedentary professional [00:20:15] environments for the majority of the days, including in school.

[00:20:17] Yes. Right. Specifically our [00:20:20] elementary and middle schools, which is just devastatingly sad. What are [00:20:25] the, the quick things to do if you’re, you know, at a desk all day? [00:20:30]

[00:20:30] DR HP: Couple of things we can do, but number one, I I, I wanna just acknowledge that sitting is the new smoking. [00:20:35] Mm-hmm. That people who sit for more than 11 hours a day, and that sounds ridiculous, but I [00:20:40] have colleagues, you know, people with desk jobs that drive an hour to work, sit at their desk nine to 10 hours, that’s drive [00:20:45] an hour back.

[00:20:45] That’s 11 hours. That person is at 40% increased risk of early death [00:20:50] from heart disease, stroke, cancer, complications of diabetes, [00:20:55] dementia. So it is a serious issue and it’s dose dependent. The longer you sit, the worse you [00:21:00] are. Why sitting so hazardous? Because whenever we sit, there’s no electrical activity in our [00:21:05] biggest muscles, which are our quads and our glutes, and.

[00:21:08] Uh, and we [00:21:10] also produce, and, and that sort of means the fats and the sugars stagnate in our blood. Mm-hmm. But also we [00:21:15] produce the opposite of mykines. We produce cytokines when we just sit. [00:21:20] Cytokines are pro-inflammatory molecules, and it means we’re [00:21:25] in a low level state of inflammation. So that’s not good.

[00:21:28] So what can we do? [00:21:30] Couple of things. Number one. Unfortunately, even if you flog yourself at the gym for an hour a [00:21:35] day, you’re not undoing all the damage of prolonged sitting. Some, but not all. [00:21:40] The simplest way is to just break up the sitting time every 20 to 30 minutes. Just [00:21:45] stand up for two minutes. You don’t have to go skipping a rope, but that would be great if you [00:21:50] did running up downstairs.

[00:21:51] But just stand up every 20 to 30 minutes and when I’m writing my books. [00:21:55] I have a timer that goes off every half hour. It’s just easier every half hour.

[00:21:59] Hmm.

[00:21:59] DR HP: And I [00:22:00] have a little standing, just a cheap little standing desk. So quickly move it across and [00:22:05] just type for a little while standing. ’cause I don’t wanna lose my train of thought or whatever.

[00:22:09] Sure. But, so [00:22:10] you just interrupt that sitting time and you know, all my lawyer friends break out in a cold [00:22:15] sweat because every six minutes is a billable unit, Uhhuh. And they don’t wanna lose. [00:22:20] Billable units. I said, but it’s not dead time. You can talk on the phone, you can read, you can still type. So just break [00:22:25] it up.

[00:22:25] AJ: Okay. So, I mean, I think that’s, I think that’s a huge thing because like even on days like [00:22:30] today I am doing several different interviews back to back to back. And it’s like, [00:22:35] I know that it, like during my quick breaks, it’s like I have to go and stand ’cause I can must, I can literally [00:22:40] feel it. Yes. Like kinda like stagnating.

[00:22:42] Yes. So what would you say. Um, [00:22:45] and people are

[00:22:45] DR HP: more tired when they sit all day than when they break it up.

[00:22:48] AJ: Yeah. And

[00:22:49] DR HP: they think, you just [00:22:50] think sitting, prolonged sitting is one cause of brain fog. But go on. I

[00:22:53] AJ: interrupted. Oh, and ’cause I [00:22:55] would love to talk more about this brain fog. So I’m curious to see what do you think are some of [00:23:00] the trends in workplace environments?

[00:23:02] Um, have you seen anywhere they are [00:23:05] doing more standing desks or like, my big Christmas present this year was a standing desk and [00:23:10] a walking pad. Right. So like yesterday I broke, I have to brag on myself ’cause I [00:23:15] broke my stepping record. I did 30,000 steps yesterday. Wow. Because it’s like for five [00:23:20] hours.

[00:23:20] Yes. I’m just like, yes, it’s low speed, it’s low impact, but I’m just like, f calls all [00:23:25] day. Might as well just step it out. Um, but there are so many work [00:23:30] environments where like you could do that. But yet we’re not. Have you [00:23:35] seen any trends in any countries or any companies where like they’re really bringing this in, [00:23:40] not just for the health, the, like the personal health, which is vitally important.

[00:23:44] We [00:23:45] gotta own that as individuals, but to hear everything that you’re saying, like, Hey, it boosts creativity, it, it boosts [00:23:50] productivity, like all the quote unquote corporate benefits that this [00:23:55] has. Surely companies are taking notice

[00:23:57] DR HP: nowhere near enough. There was a trend. [00:24:00] Uh, maybe a decade maybe. Yeah, maybe.

[00:24:03] Five, 10 years ago. Yeah, people started to get [00:24:05] standing desks and have meetings on the move. And meetings are so much more [00:24:10] productive if you’re standing or if you can, you know, have a rooftop, the garden or do it outdoors [00:24:15] or in nature, so much more productive. But sadly, people sort of [00:24:20] start and then it peters out and it hasn’t been kept up nearly enough.

[00:24:24] AJ: [00:24:25] Well, I, ’cause you said something is, I know some

[00:24:26] DR HP: companies are doing it,

[00:24:28] AJ: but not enough. But not

[00:24:28] DR HP: enough.

[00:24:29] AJ: But you, because [00:24:30] you said something and I brought this up before this started, this quote unquote mom brain, our brain [00:24:35] fog. And what I have noticed, at least for myself, I’d be curious to hear from like an actual [00:24:40] doctor on this.

[00:24:40] It’s like. The longer that I’m just sitting doing the same thing, it’s like the foggier my [00:24:45] brain gets. Mm. Like, is that just me? No. Or is that like a real thing

[00:24:48] DR HP: that, oh, that’s definitely a [00:24:50] real thing. You need to break up your focus. Um, so [00:24:55] again, if you want to sort of clear your head especially. Okay. [00:25:00] I’m gonna backtrack just a little bit.

[00:25:02] A major cause of brain fog for a lot of people is just not getting enough [00:25:05] sleep.

[00:25:05] Hmm.

[00:25:06] DR HP: Most people need seven to nine hours. Most people are not getting seven to [00:25:10] nine hours. I, I get it that the demands of life are great, but you’re just not gonna be [00:25:15] firing on all cylinders if you don’t get enough sleep.

[00:25:17] Sleep is when our brain detoxifies [00:25:20] magic happens. When we sleep in our brain. The spaces between our brain cells actually [00:25:25] expand and what’s known as glymphatic fluid. Flushes out the [00:25:30] toxins.

[00:25:30] Mm.

[00:25:30] DR HP: And if you are not asleep for long enough, you don’t get rid of the toxins. And those [00:25:35] toxins then build up over time and create more and more brain fog.

[00:25:37] AJ: So why aren’t people getting enough sleep? I’m, [00:25:40] I’m one of those few people where I sleep nine hours.

[00:25:42] DR HP: Fantastic. But

[00:25:44] AJ: my husband [00:25:45] is, has convinced himself that he only needs six hours. And it’s [00:25:50] like, I think you’re wrong. But I’m not a doctor.

[00:25:53] DR HP: Okay. 3% of the [00:25:55] population have the short sleep gene and they can get away with less.

[00:25:59] Whether Rory [00:26:00] is one of those, I don’t know. Most people overestimate that they have the [00:26:05] short sleep gene, so I’d be wary about that

[00:26:07] AJ: because he says he, he’s like, I literally can’t [00:26:10] sleep longer. Okay. And so I guess for me, like, why aren’t people sleeping like. [00:26:15] Because they’ve, they’ve got children and

[00:26:18] DR HP: jobs to hold [00:26:20] down and, and there’s definitely the children part for sure.

[00:26:23] Yes. Just because they’ve [00:26:25] put just modern living. Mm-hmm. So many demands. Getting children to [00:26:30] school, getting self to work, preparing meals, just getting [00:26:35] everything done. I think people tell themselves that, that. They’ve just got so much on their, they

[00:26:39] AJ: [00:26:40] deprioritize sleep to get the rest of life done. Yes.

[00:26:41] Basically.

[00:26:41] DR HP: Basically it’s deprioritizing sleep, but we have to, I mean, we [00:26:45] make the worst decisions. We eat badly when, when we wake up sleep [00:26:50] deprived. We will have high levels of the, of the hormone cortisol throughout the [00:26:55] day. Cortisol, remember the stress hormone? That means we feel stressed before anything has even happened.[00:27:00]

[00:27:00] Mm-hmm.

[00:27:02] DR HP: Sleep deprivation, um, [00:27:05] dampens the hormone leptin, which makes us feel full and, and increases [00:27:10] levels of the hormone ghrelin, which makes us hungry. And not only that, we don’t not, we’re not hungry for [00:27:15] Brussels sprouts. We’re hungry for junk food, for sugar, for quick fixes. [00:27:20] You know, we, we are more angry.

[00:27:23] We, we snap more just. [00:27:25] All the things I, I, I can just tell you an example of something, um, that happened in Australia, in [00:27:30] Brisbane. Um, there was a big event, a lot of police involved. And, and on the last day, a young police officer [00:27:35] was asked to take a bag of guns back to the police station, and we got, when he got to the police station, [00:27:40] he realized he’d forgotten the guns at the train station.[00:27:45]

[00:27:45] And, and there was this major like investigation. How on earth could a [00:27:50] police officer do something so stupid? Simple answer. He was really, he’d been work, he’d [00:27:55] done, I dunno how many days in a row, sleep deprived and it was sleep deprived. Mm-hmm. We do really dumb things when [00:28:00] we’re sleep deprived, so, so I think chronic sleep deprivation, you know, [00:28:05] contributes to brain fog, dehydration, and especially if you’re sleep [00:28:10] deprived, you need to drink more water.

[00:28:12] Again, it’s ’cause of a hormonal thing. I’m not gonna, well, the

[00:28:14] AJ: [00:28:15] detoxification right. Like the more water you drink, does that help? Just deep talk. That too. But it’s,

[00:28:19] DR HP: it’s [00:28:20] also, well just, just dehydration. Your brain needs water. Um, so the longer you’re awake, you just [00:28:25] need more. That’s right. Yes, exactly. Um, and taking [00:28:30] micro breaks, even just, you know, every 40.[00:28:35]

[00:28:35] Minutes to an hour. Don’t leave it much long. Don’t leave it more than more than an hour. [00:28:40] Take micro breaks. And what I mean by that is shift your focus from your desk, from your [00:28:45] computer, preferably just to nature.

[00:28:48] Mm.

[00:28:48] DR HP: Go and find a garden, [00:28:50] a go to garden. If nothing else, just see if you can get a picture of [00:28:55] nature.

[00:28:55] Looking at an urban environment isn’t as rejuvenating, but going for a [00:29:00] walk in nature, nature nurtures us. That is another thing that. [00:29:05] It heals our body, heals our brain, be for for many reasons. Number one, you’ve heard of the [00:29:10] microbiome, which is the trillions of bacteria in our gut. There is also an [00:29:15] aero biome, trillions of bacteria in the air, in nature.

[00:29:19] [00:29:20] When we inhale them, not just the bacteria, but also [00:29:25] chemicals called phyton sides, which are produced by trees, they strengthen our immune [00:29:30] system. They lower our blood pressure. They lower levels of the hormone [00:29:35] cortisol. Nature will energize us if we are tired. Nature [00:29:40] will calm us down if we are stressed.

[00:29:43] A bonus tip for you, if you’re ever in [00:29:45] hospital, ask for a room with a view of nature because hospital patients that [00:29:50] look out onto nature heal more quickly, need fewer painkillers, get [00:29:55] out of hospital sooner.

[00:29:56] AJ: Wow.

[00:29:57] DR HP: Prison. If you’re ever in prison, ask for a cell with [00:30:00] a view of nature. Let’s hope

[00:30:00] AJ: I am. Never in prison.

[00:30:01] No, but

[00:30:02] DR HP: just, just in case. Prisoners who look [00:30:05] out onto whose cells look out onto nature, they get sick less often. They better behave. They get outta [00:30:10] prison sooner. Phenomenal.

[00:30:12] AJ: Okay, so I, I have to stop because it’s like [00:30:15] these are seemingly so simple. Simple that we [00:30:20] ignore them.

[00:30:20] DR HP: Yes. Yes. That is the danger of this.

[00:30:22] That is the problem with this. It’s like, [00:30:25] yeah, I know I should eat better. I know I should exercise. I know I should get out into nature. By the way, [00:30:30] just to complete that 17 and a half minutes a day, 120 minutes a week, [00:30:35] they’ve done studies in England to find how much you need, how much nature you need to stay [00:30:40] healthy.

[00:30:40] So 120 minutes a week, combine it with [00:30:45] exercise, and you’ve killed two birds with one stone.

[00:30:47] AJ: Why don’t we do it? Like, I mean, these are [00:30:50] things that’s like, none of this is necessarily revolutionary. We all know it. [00:30:55] Uh, we know that we need to sleep, we know we should eat healthy. We know [00:31:00] we should drink water.

[00:31:01] Uh, most of us know we should spend out time outside. Most of us [00:31:05] know we should be moving. We’ve been hearing this for decades now, that sitting [00:31:10] does damage long term and yet we’re not doing [00:31:15] it.

[00:31:16] DR HP: Not a strong enough. Why Friedrich Nietzche. He who has [00:31:20] a powerful why can conquer any unknown how? Mm. I think it’s just when people are not sold [00:31:25] enough that this makes enough of a difference and it makes a huge difference.

[00:31:28] But I, I think [00:31:30] people don’t realize that it makes that much difference and it’s like, [00:31:35] oh, I just can’t be bothered. It’s, it’s sort of a, a negative perpetuating spiral. If you wake up [00:31:40] tired and sleep deprived, you’re less motivated. You don’t have the energy to exercise. It’s all too, [00:31:45] everything’s too hard.

[00:31:45] So it kind of starts with that. Then exercise [00:31:50] actually energizes. If you’re sitting all day, that comp, that makes you even more tired, so you’re even less [00:31:55] motivated. Then, um, you know, you have a sugary breakfast, like another big brain [00:32:00] booster. I’m sorry, quit the Coke and sugary beverages. Every [00:32:05] soft drink is a bullet to our brain.

[00:32:07] Unfortunately, fruit juices as well. [00:32:10] Because it’s a massive hit of sugar in a very small amount of time. Even if it’s

[00:32:13] AJ: all natural, no sugar [00:32:15] added it correct. It’s still so much concentrated. If you like fruit,

[00:32:18] DR HP: eat it. Don’t drink it [00:32:20] because how much, how, how many apples would you, you eat in one sitting? [00:32:25]

[00:32:25] AJ: One.

[00:32:25] DR HP: One. You can’t, not 20 not, but in a little apple juice, [00:32:30] minimum, three, four apples. That is a big, it’s just too much, too [00:32:35] much sugar. Now why is sugar damaging to the brain? I’ll spare you all the biochemistry. [00:32:40] Suffice to say, um, sugar is sucrose two smaller and it’s [00:32:45] made up of two smaller sugar molecules, fructose and glucose.

[00:32:48] The fructose [00:32:50] molecule is the more damaging when it hits your brain, it actually [00:32:55] to break that molecule down. It drains your brain cells of energy.

[00:32:59] It

[00:32:59] DR HP: does [00:33:00] not, fructose does not give you energy. Glucose does. But too much of it is a bad thing [00:33:05] too. But fructose actually drains brain cells of energy. It impedes [00:33:10] communication between brain cells, fructose messes with genes in two [00:33:15] really important areas of our brain, the hippocampus, our learning and memory warehouse, and our [00:33:20] hypothalamus, which regulates all our hormones.

[00:33:22] So you drink that [00:33:25] massive dose of sugar, and it’s like machine gunfire to your brain. And [00:33:30] yeah, you’ll get that initial high for a short amount of time ’cause you get that glucose, but then you [00:33:35] get that massive crash and then you’ve gotta start all over again.

[00:33:37] AJ: Because I have a personal question ’cause I have two [00:33:40] little boys who are ages five and seven.

[00:33:42] Um, so all things kid related are [00:33:45] just very top of mind for me, 24 7. Knowing everything that you’ve just [00:33:50] said, why do all of these companies then create [00:33:55] all of these things that you’re just talking about and gear them to children?

[00:33:59] DR HP: [00:34:00] Profit over people.

[00:34:01] AJ: I mean, it’s

[00:34:02] DR HP: absurd. It is absurd. Uh, it it [00:34:05] because it’s a trillion dollar industry.

[00:34:07] Let me just give you one thing, just just as an [00:34:10] example. If you changed nothing in your life but you decided you’d add one [00:34:15] small can of soft drink, I think, I dunno how many, we have three 30 mils, I dunno what [00:34:20] you’ve got here. Eight ounces. Eight ounces. That’s all. You just added that to your life. [00:34:25] You changed nothing else.

[00:34:25] By the end of the year, you would be six and a half to seven kilograms heavier. Just from that [00:34:30] one can of soft drink. You’d have a 22% increased risk of diabetes [00:34:35] and your risk of all chronic diseases will have skyrocketed and you are [00:34:40] eroding your brain function. Now, if you are a young, you see all the [00:34:45] studies they do on soft drinks, where they go, they don’t do any harm.

[00:34:48] They do them on young [00:34:50] fit, super athletic men. And they tell them to sip that soft drink [00:34:55] over an hour or two. Nobody sips a soft drink over an hour or two, [00:35:00] and so they can fudge the results. So I’m really, you know, I’m not a [00:35:05] conspiracy theorist. However, money talks, you know, fast [00:35:10] food companies like. Uh, quit all the junk food mm-hmm.

[00:35:13] Out there [00:35:15] because our body and brain was not designed to handle all these chemicals. Mm-hmm. [00:35:20] We simply weren’t. What’s my best dietary advice? It doesn’t matter if you are [00:35:25] vegan, vegetarian, omnivore, or carnivore. It doesn’t matter as long as you eat food that’s from [00:35:30] the land, from the sea, from the sky, or from a tree, not from a packet, not from a tin.

[00:35:34] If it [00:35:35] comes in the box, I’d throw it in the bin. I listen to your, uh, that’s so good. I listened to your, [00:35:40] or most of your podcasts, but, but, um, co Dr. Cody, Dr. Cody Goldman [00:35:45] Coleman

[00:35:45] AJ: mm-hmm.

[00:35:45] DR HP: Where you said, oh, I don’t eat sugar. This is, I get this all the time [00:35:50] with my patients. I don’t eat sugar. How did I get diabetes?

[00:35:52] When I don’t eat sugar? I do [00:35:55] the same thing. Go through your pantry and do an order. It was frightening. And it’s, it’s, it’s [00:36:00] terrifying. It was frightening. Every, everything from everything savory has sugar in it, from mayonnaise to, I was [00:36:05] shocked. Bread crackers, frozen meals, teriyaki sauce, sweet chili [00:36:10] sauce, salad dressings

[00:36:11] AJ: everywhere, everywhere.

[00:36:12] Just everything. Sugar and oils. Whereas in everything, [00:36:15] I could not cottage cheese, weave my own eyes. I, it was in everything.

[00:36:19] DR HP: It’s in [00:36:20] everything. So, so sugar is in everything and it’s, so, it’s hidden. That’s right. [00:36:25] Today. By the time a child is eight years old, they’ve already consumed [00:36:30] more sugar than the average person had in their entire life a century ago.[00:36:35]

[00:36:35] So it’s. Birthdays happen once a year for a reason. So you eat sugar once a [00:36:40] year?

[00:36:40] AJ: That’s right. That’s gonna be the new policy at my house. Sugar once a year. I mean, I’m not, [00:36:45] but I mean there’s plenty of natural sugar you can eat. Absolutely. In,

[00:36:47] DR HP: in, in your

[00:36:48] AJ: fruit. I mean, you get a good, ripe [00:36:50] piece of fruit and it’s like, it is a burst of sugar in your mouth.

[00:36:53] Burst of sugar.

[00:36:54] DR HP: Especially [00:36:55] if you’ve eliminated all the added sugar, you actually taste it more when I eliminate and that’s what

[00:36:59] AJ: it is. Our [00:37:00] taste buds have been so. You know, hammered. Yes. They’ve been so like [00:37:05] tapered down by all this other stuff that we can’t even taste the goodness of real whole food.[00:37:10]

[00:37:10] DR HP: And here’s the other problem, people don’t realize just how harmful junk food is and how [00:37:15] harmful soft drinks are there is. They go everything in moderation. No, no, no. We’ve lost touch [00:37:20] with what’s moderation, right? There is some work. Would you eat chew polish in moderation just because it tasted good. [00:37:25] So I put, would you smoke in moderation?

[00:37:29] No, you wouldn’t, [00:37:30] because there is no safe level of cigarette consumption that is so good. There is no safe level of soft drink consumption. [00:37:35] I’m sorry. There just isn’t. And there is really no safe level of junk food consumption. That doesn’t [00:37:40] mean you never eat cake or you never had B biscuits, but it just means [00:37:45] it’s a.

[00:37:47] Special occasion thing. Mm-hmm. And guess [00:37:50] what? Not every day you will enjoy it more. When I was a child, [00:37:55] Serbian sort of tradition, we had only a particular cake that you would eat, [00:38:00] um, at Christmas and at name day and at Easter. [00:38:05] And boy, I so looked forward to it. Mm-hmm. And boy, I savor it. And [00:38:10] you know, I wouldn’t have my whole piece today, so I’d have some more tomorrow and it would just last longer.

[00:38:14] Mm-hmm. [00:38:15] People don’t look forward to any food anymore because it’s every day. They can have [00:38:20] anything anytime, any day. You actually enjoy your food more [00:38:25] when you have it less often, and when you really savor it, um, [00:38:30] we don’t overeat because something tastes too good. We overeat because we’re [00:38:35] not paying attention to what we’re eating and we’re overeating because it’s not really satisfying.[00:38:40]

[00:38:41] One way, I, one thing I do with my patients too that go, ah, I just, this. [00:38:45] I could never give up X food. Let’s say it’s Krispy Kreme donuts, but I’m just using that as an [00:38:50] example. I go, okay, next time, please bring in a Krispy Kreme donut and we’re gonna eat it together. [00:38:55] And they go, what? Bring in a Krispy Kreme donut the next visit.

[00:38:59] So they do, and I go, [00:39:00] right, you are gonna eat this donut. Like you’ve never, ever, ever eaten it before. [00:39:05] Smell it. Don’t, don’t even eat. Just look at it first. Smell it. Take in the take in [00:39:10] the scent. Just, you know, what sort of flavors are you smelling it? Take a [00:39:15] bite, really try and absorb all the flavors. So eating really [00:39:20] mindfully after three bites, it’s like I’ve had enough

[00:39:23] Mm

[00:39:24] DR HP: I, [00:39:25] I can’t eat anymore.

[00:39:25] It’s too sweet. But you never paid attention until now. [00:39:30] And once you get rid of all the artificial, I say [00:39:35] artificially sweeten. I don’t mean using artificial sweetness, but that too is not good for a different reason. [00:39:40] But once you acclimatize your taste buds to real food. [00:39:45] Cashews and macadamia. Nuts are sweet.

[00:39:47] Milk is sweet. [00:39:50] Like, it’s like I don’t often drink raw milk, but occasionally I’ll just have a, [00:39:55] it’s thick and cream, it’s really sweet. And, and, and don’t get me started on, [00:40:00] um, the, the plant-based milks. Nothing wrong with almond milk [00:40:05] except that they add sugar, sunflower oil, artificial colorings, flavoring.[00:40:10]

[00:40:11] I had a girlfriend come and stay with me once who only drank soy milk. Nothing wrong with [00:40:15] soy milk. I went to the supermarket. My husband was just over it ’cause I was half an hour [00:40:20] reading all the labels trying to find a soy milk that I could morally buy for her. And not [00:40:25] po feel I was poisoning her. Um, I finally found one and ’cause all I had is soybeans and [00:40:30] water uhhuh.

[00:40:31] So I brought, I was so proud of myself. She said, I’ve never tried this [00:40:35] brand before. Tried nearly spat it out. Said, this is the worst soy milk I’ve ever tasted. [00:40:40] I said, that’s because it’s only soybeans and water. Yours probably has sugar, added sugar. [00:40:45] Um, most of them have, what else? Some kind of oils. Anyway, all I’m saying is [00:40:50] we don’t realize how damaging the food is because safety in numbers, if everybody’s [00:40:55] doing it, it should be fine.

[00:40:55] It should be fine, but you are too young. But doctors used to [00:41:00] advertise their favorite cigarettes. We get it wrong and we’ve gotta admit [00:41:05] that, you know, when we got it wrong with cigarettes. We’ve got it wrong with soft drinks and [00:41:10] juices and we’ve got it wrong with junk food. It is really harmful.

[00:41:13] AJ: You, my [00:41:15] friend, need to be plastered on billboards all across the world saying this because it is the [00:41:20] truth.

[00:41:20] And honestly, what we’re not hearing right now is truth. That’s right. Right. We’re hearing [00:41:25] a whole bunch of stuff. Uh, now here in the US you probably don’t follow as much of the [00:41:30] politics. Uh, but it was fascinating just a few weeks ago to hear the [00:41:35] American Heart Association. Mm. On the stand [00:41:40] saying that they disagreed with a lot of the new Make America healthy [00:41:45] again, you know, bans and practices and it was the American Heart Association and [00:41:50] going, well, we just don’t agree and we’re just sitting here going, look, watching this court appeal going, [00:41:55] what do you not agree with?

[00:41:56] No, I was gonna say, what do they not agree with? That all of the artificial [00:42:00] foods, uh, have a negative impact on heart Help. [00:42:05] But they, it’s, but they do. They do. They do. And it was just [00:42:10] fascinating to listen to these representatives going, well, there’s just not enough proof for us to make an [00:42:15] official stand.

[00:42:15] There is, there is, but at the end of the day, it’s like, who are they funded by? [00:42:20] Who are they funded by? Exactly. And so, uh, I was gonna tell you this quick, uh, thing because, [00:42:25] uh, it’s a, ever since I have. Radically become aware of this in my own [00:42:30] life and throughout all the package things, and read labels like a crazy person takes me two hours to go grocery [00:42:35] shopping every single time.

[00:42:36] Yes. Which is why you just stay and we call it perimeter shopping. Yes. So we [00:42:40] never go down the aisles. No. It’s just perimeter shopping. Um, but I give my kids an opportunity [00:42:45] every single time they go to the store with me, and here’s their opportunity. I’ll buy [00:42:50] anything that you want, as long as it has less than four [00:42:55] ingredients and less than four grams of sugar.

[00:42:57] DR HP: Wonderful.

[00:42:57] AJ: And if you can find it, bring it to [00:43:00] me and I will buy it for you.

[00:43:02] DR HP: Great.

[00:43:03] AJ: And you know what, they’re always [00:43:05] like, mom, that doesn’t exist. There is nothing. And I’m like, yet there [00:43:10] is, it’s called a banana, an orange, an apple. It’s called broccoli. It’s, [00:43:15] and it’s, it’s been fascinating for my kids because then anytime that we’re out, they’ll just [00:43:20] ask, does this have four grams of sugar?

[00:43:22] And so it’s

[00:43:22] DR HP: like, it’s so good,

[00:43:23] AJ: but it’s, but it. It [00:43:25] is that ’cause

[00:43:25] DR HP: because a child shouldn’t be having more than four grams of sugar a day sugar. And it’s like if I has more than four

[00:43:29] AJ: [00:43:30] ingredients, sugar, and if I cannot pronounce them, we cannot buy them. Mm. Right. We cannot. Fantastic. [00:43:35] I’ve become my, Rory teases me, he goes, baby, you’re just one step away from full blown hippie right now [00:43:40] because I bought my own almond milk maker.

[00:43:42] Wow. Right. The almond cow. Highly [00:43:45] recommended, uh, no affiliate fees, just really like it. And uh, you add almonds and water. [00:43:50] Fantastic. And then. Voila. Overnight, you wake up and you have fresh [00:43:55] almond milk and, but it is one of those things where it’s like, there’s so many tools at our [00:44:00] disposal to make it just as easy.

[00:44:01] Like, I’m not saying it’s just as easy of buying a carton from the [00:44:05] store, but kind of it is. I buy a bag, it’s a vomit, I throw [00:44:10] it in, I add the water, I turn it on, and I walk away. But it, it’s a mindset, [00:44:15] it’s a choice. And I’m only so passionate about this because a year ago I woke [00:44:20] up to. All the lies that I had been fed and was believing, which is [00:44:25] I’m healthy.

[00:44:26] Mm. And I wasn’t like I was facing [00:44:30] chronic illness with gallstones and my gallbladder disease and I wasn’t healthy and, but I thought I [00:44:35] was. Yes. And that was the problem. And that is the problem. That’s the problem. I thought I was, people

[00:44:39] DR HP: aren’t in enough [00:44:40] pain uhhuh that that’s the problem. And, and. People don’t [00:44:45] realize how good they can feel.

[00:44:47] People don’t realize just how much more [00:44:50] sharply they could think, how much better they could concentrate. You know, the norm is to [00:44:55] feel tired and run down every day, and so people have forgotten. Just [00:45:00] how healthy it’s been. Normalized it’s possible to be

[00:45:02] AJ: sickness has been normalized. Yes it has. Right?

[00:45:04] Foggy [00:45:05] brain, mom brain. I remember, um, you know, after children as I kept saying like, [00:45:10] oh man, mom, brain is real. Um, and what it, I didn’t click to me as like, no. What’s [00:45:15] real is sleep deprivation. Yes. Right. That is real. And because of that, I have, [00:45:20] quote unquote mom brain, foggy brain. A couple of things I want to,

[00:45:24] DR HP: uh, [00:45:25] address on that.

[00:45:25] Number one there. A [00:45:30] mom brain, your the brain changes a bit because now your priority is your children. [00:45:35] So if you would ab observe yourself, your brain is [00:45:40] actually sharper in relation to anything to do with your children.

[00:45:43] Mm.

[00:45:43] DR HP: Uh, in terms of [00:45:45] hearing Oh, absolutely. Your, your, your hearing is sharper in terms of [00:45:50] recognizing in the distance that your child is crying.

[00:45:53] Um, [00:45:55] so there are certain. That’s true. That’s true. I haven’t been a mother, so I don’t know all the details, but I [00:46:00] do know that the brain changes in a positive way in order for you to protect your children. [00:46:05] But what we notice is the ne because [00:46:10] that’s just how we program. We notice more that, that, you know, we are more tired.[00:46:15]

[00:46:15] Um, we tend to multitask more. Mm-hmm. Which drains the brain of energy, which increases the [00:46:20] brain fog as well. Mm-hmm. Um, another quick way to brain fog is to multitask all the time. [00:46:25] Now we, there are times when you have to multitask and there are two different types of [00:46:30] multitasking, by the way. There is multitasking where one thing is automatic, [00:46:35] like you can walk and talk that’s multitasking, but you don’t have to go, I have to put one foot in [00:46:40] front of the, that’s right.

[00:46:40] Other, so there is type, that type of multitasking is fine, [00:46:45] but it’s when you’ve got highly cerebral mm-hmm. You know, mentally [00:46:50] demanding tasks, the brain is not able to multi. Focus. [00:46:55] Mm, that’s good. The brain is only able to focus on one thing at a time. So if you’re multitasking, [00:47:00] you are very rapidly switching your attention from one thing to the next, to the next.

[00:47:04] Mm. And then back to the [00:47:05] first thing. So that means, you know, if you are talking to somebody on the phone, but also reading an [00:47:10] email at the same time, uh, then you are gonna lose. [00:47:15] Information one way or the other. Yeah, you’re gonna pick lose information from that email. You’re not gonna pick up [00:47:20] everything that the person’s saying.

[00:47:21] You’re more likely to make mistakes, you’re more likely to feel stressed, and [00:47:25] you’re more likely to feel tired after that conversation. Uh, and they’ve actually done studies where they’ve compared [00:47:30] people and they’ve said, you’ve gotta get these five tasks done. You in this room [00:47:35] multitask you in this room, must only do one thing at a time.

[00:47:38] And they time them. And then [00:47:40] they see who makes more mistakes and they just sort of question them afterwards. Now the people who multitask [00:47:45] think Uhhuh that they’ve done better a hundred percent of the time. [00:47:50] The mono taskers, do it faster, do it better, [00:47:55] make fewer mistakes,

[00:47:56] AJ: you know? And I love what you said, it’s not multitasking, it’s your brain can’t multi [00:48:00] focus.

[00:48:00] That’s

[00:48:00] DR HP: right. We can multitask. We can’t multi focus.

[00:48:02] AJ: That’s so good. All right, so Dr. [00:48:05] Elena, I could spend. The rest of the day having this conversation with you because this is, [00:48:10] this is the part that fascinates me. And I think it was like the moment that I hit 40, something [00:48:15] clicked in me and it’s like, Hey, are you, are you preparing your body to [00:48:20] live another 40 years?

[00:48:21] And it, I don’t know what it was, it clicked in me, why stop at

[00:48:24] DR HP: 40,

[00:48:24] AJ: [00:48:25] right? Or yeah, another 60, 70 years. And, but there was something that clicked and it, [00:48:30] I have been on this journey of like, no, I, I won’t be able to control all the factors in my life. [00:48:35] I won’t be able to control it. If I get hit by a car this afternoon, I won’t be able to control so many [00:48:40] things.

[00:48:40] But what I put in my mouth and what I do for myself are things that I can influence [00:48:45] every single day. Right. I can influence when I go to bed. I can influence keeping my brain active. I [00:48:50] can influence being out in nature. I can influence standing up. Right. And that’s why I thought this was such a [00:48:55] worthwhile conversation to share.

[00:48:57] It’s ’cause everything you share today are things that we can do. [00:49:00] Mm. Right. They don’t cost money. Right. These are things that we can do. Um, and so [00:49:05] first of all, I just thought this was amazing and such a a, it was a breath of fresh [00:49:10] air to be reminded, right? We can do things proactively to protect our [00:49:15] minds to, you know, prevent cognitive decline to, to stay healthy.[00:49:20]

[00:49:20] And so I wanna encourage everyone, um, this is not. The only thing, [00:49:25] uh, that Dr. Helena talks about, um, she’s got two amazing books. Um, she’s [00:49:30] got all kinds of information on her blog, and so if you go to. Her website, [00:49:35] Dr. Helena Popovic, P-O-P-O-V-I-C [00:49:40] popovic.com. We’ll also put that in the show notes, but dr helena popovic.com, uh, [00:49:45] you can access her blog, you can learn about her books, you can learn about all of her work and her studies and her [00:49:50] research.

[00:49:50] Um, not to mention, uh, all of her speaking engagements, uh, all around the world, and [00:49:55] so highly encourage you to go check her out. Learn more about the things that you can [00:50:00] do to stay sharp, uh, and stay healthy. Right. All right. Last top, last two [00:50:05] questions. Yes. Before I release you, what is your morning [00:50:10] routine?

[00:50:10] To have a happy, healthy brain.

[00:50:13] DR HP: Okay. I wake up, [00:50:15] I. My, the first thing I do is exercise, whether it’s, um, aerobic [00:50:20] exercise or strength training, which we didn’t talk about. So I could just quickly mention that. Um, the stronger [00:50:25] your hand grip strength, the stronger your mind get your hand grip strength tested because it tends to [00:50:30] reflect your overall body strength.

[00:50:31] And whenever we, um, work out build [00:50:35] muscles, we are actually building brain. So from our mid thirties onwards, we lose about [00:50:40] 5% of our muscles every decade. That means mid thirties to mid seventies, we [00:50:45] could lose. 20%. One fifth of our muscles. Wow. People go, I don’t care. I don’t wanna be [00:50:50] muscular. It’s not about your muscles, it’s about your brain.

[00:50:52] Mm-hmm. And also losing muscle means we want [00:50:55] more frail, more likely to have falls. All of that. And also, sorry, I [00:51:00] just have to get these few things in. Um, maintain good balance. People are having poorer [00:51:05] and poorer balance with with time, because we are less physically active because we spend [00:51:10] so much time sitting because we’re losing muscle mass, we should be able to stand on one leg.[00:51:15]

[00:51:15] For 60 seconds with our eyes closed, try it. Okay. Okay. So, so that one, and that’s because [00:51:20] balance, um, is, is uh, coordinated by part of the [00:51:25] brain called the cerebellum, which also regulates our thoughts and emotions. And people who have poor [00:51:30] mental health tend to have poor balance. You improve balance, you improve their mental health.

[00:51:33] Fascinating. So that’s a really [00:51:35] fascinating thing. That’s another whole other story. Um, so, so I go to the gym, but [00:51:40] while I’m going to the gym, while I’m driving to the gym. I practice gratitude because one [00:51:45] topic we didn’t cover, which is also really important, is that feeling positive emotions [00:51:50] boosts our brain and our body.

[00:51:52] That’s a whole other topic. Why? [00:51:55] Because when we feel a positive emotion that strengthens our immune system. They’ve [00:52:00] actually measured studies that, that they’ve done it on actors where they spend a whole day [00:52:05] working with depressive depressing scripts.

[00:52:08] Mm.

[00:52:08] DR HP: And then they actually take [00:52:10] blood samples.

[00:52:11] They’ve lowered their white cell count, which is part of their immune [00:52:15] system. And when they test the function of their white cells, they’re more sluggish responding [00:52:20] to bacteria and viruses. So back on the other hand, when, [00:52:25] when, when you have actors working with uplifting, happy scripts, their immune system stays [00:52:30] strong, there’s, there’s no change.

[00:52:31] So, so I practice and one of the, some, and people go, oh yeah, [00:52:35] and, and your, um, one of your other interviewees, Jason. Only a couple of weeks ago [00:52:40] said, oh, positive thinking doesn’t work. I’m, I’m not suggesting you force yourself to be positive if you are [00:52:45] not find back doors mm-hmm. To, to improving your [00:52:50] mood if you’re feeling flat.

[00:52:51] Gratitude is a fabulous one. I start every day with reflecting on what I feel [00:52:55] grateful for. I love that it’s, look. It could be shocking things going on in our lives, [00:53:00] but there’s always something we can be grateful for. I always think about this at an airport when people get [00:53:05] irate, impatient. You know, are you, why do you have to check my language?

[00:53:09] And I’m [00:53:10] thinking, the fact that you are at an airport [00:53:15] able to catch a plane, you are part of the privileged few in this, in this world. [00:53:20] Do you know what I mean? Mm-hmm. Not of all the people. If you can catch a plane. [00:53:25] Be grateful that you are in that. Minority of the world’s