Ep 434: How to get Publicity for Your Book Launch with Paige Dungan
RV (00:00):
Well, if you’ve listened to this show for any amount of time, you’ve probably heard us talk a lot about book launches. Book launches is one of the things that we do really, really well. As of this recording, we have helped 17 different clients become New York Times or Wall Street Journal bestselling authors. We had two clients last year that pre-sold over a hundred thousand copies before their launch date following our system. But what we do is we help people come up with the sales strategy for how to sell the books, and then we help make sure those, those books sales happen in a way that get optimized and reported in the most optimized way for the bestseller list. What we don’t do is PR and we get asked this question all the time, who do you recommend for pr? Do you have someone for PR that we could talk to that can just like, just focus on getting you booked on shows and, and all that kind of thing?
RV (00:53):
So we’ve, we’ve worked with lots of people. We’ve talked with them, but today I want to introduce you to Paige Duncan, who’s a longtime friend of mine, and she is, her team is who we recommend for this service. And so we’re gonna talk about doing book launches, PR specifically for book launches, because this is a part of Paige’s expertise. So she was the head of PR and Talent at Success Magazine, which is where her and I met. So one of our brand builders, group clients bought the company. He asked me to be an interim editor for like a year. Paige was there. I met her immediately, was like, oh my gosh, this woman is awesome and good and smart and sharp and all the things. And she’s been in this industry for 15 years. She’s, she has sort of developed a very specific niche around PR for book launches. She’s been credited also with landing multiple authors on many of the bestseller lists, and she’s just super innovative and, you know, knows how to get an author attention in a crowded marketplace. So, Paige, welcome to the show friend. Woo.
PD (02:02):
Great. Thank you so much. It’s like we’re just grabbing a coffee today.
RV (02:06):
Totally, totally. So let’s talk PR for book launches. Yes. what do you think authors who are moving into this world, whether, whether they’re doing it themselves or they’re working with you, or they’re hiring somebody else, what do they need to know, like about getting media attention today for their book? Yeah. Like what are some of the big things where you go, man, I have to tell every author this over and over and over and over, and so we’re gonna tell ’em all right here one time, get it recorded.
PD (02:40):
Yes. Yes.
RV (02:41):
And
RV (02:41):
They’re gonna, they’ll come to you knowing, knowing this.
PD (02:44):
Yes. The number one thing where I tell all of the authors I work with is, the media actually doesn’t care about your book
RV (02:53):
That statement, what a great way. Can we cut? We need to cut that for social media. That’s the clip right there. The media doesn’t care about your book.
PD (03:03):
They don’t, and it sounds harsh, but here’s the thing that I, then I follow that up with. The media doesn’t care about your book yet, because what they have to understand is who you are, why you are the authority or expert in this space, and you have to build that trust with them first as an individual or as a company. Then they will care about your book. Mm-Hmm.
RV (04:22):
Mm-Hmm.
PD (04:51):
Exactly.
RV (04:52):
So what do you, how, how do you go about building that, you know, relationship and trust with the reporters?
PD (04:59):
Yeah. There’s two approaches that I teach. So number one is a approach that works really well, and that is you pitching yourself as a source to one of their stories. So if they, if you see them writing stories, let’s say about TikTok and all things happening at TikTok and your book is about the effects of social media of today or something like that, you simply find their email address and you reach out letting them know you really enjoyed their TikTok story on X you share a little bit of background about yourself and just leave it at, I would be happy to be a source for any other future articles you’re working on. You’re simply offering them, because journalists and media need sources every time they put out a piece of content, it’s part of the credibility of journalism. And they’re always desperate to find an expert to share a quote, share another perspective. And it’s a baby step in getting your name, like in quote, roundups, or like I said, if they just need you to come and give like an alternating view on that topic. And so what you do is literally Google search news stories about your book and your industry and what’s trending right now, and reach out to those reporters.
RV (06:15):
Got it. Uhhuh,
PD (06:16):
The second part of the so
RV (06:17):
Hold on, hold on. That I wanna hear, I do wanna hear, hear the second one, but, so, so when you say you find their email address, okay. So I love what you’re saying. So you go mm-hmm.
PD (06:54):
Easy. Yeah. Yeah.
RV (06:56):
How do you find the contact information? Like
PD (06:58):
What’s
RV (06:59):
The, how do you go about
PD (07:00):
That? That, this is my favorite part, Rory. ’cause You get to be a little bit of a spy in the best way. And so there’s a couple ways you can do this. Let me start with the free to like the page. Yeah. So the free way to do this is actually like Wall Street Journal and some of the outlets will list an email button for their journalists. So some outlets, but that’s probably a 20% Right. We’ll share the email upfront. The second thing you can do is you can find them on social media. Right. If you know their name like Rory Vaden, I’m gonna put ’em on Instagram. You can also start a relationship on social. Like if you cannot find their email free and you still wanna do free, find ’em on social. Yeah. And again, just serve them, interact with their content and message them there.
PD (07:46):
The third way you can do is you can pay for like a rocket reach or email lookup platform. Right. That can find their email. And so that’s a wonderful way, if any of you are in sales, you know about these different, and, you know, platforms that will help do a reverse email lookup. But then the last option is you can actually get a PR C R m. And so this d r m literally lists the database for all journalists and media unit talent bookers. And it allows you to be able to put in like an, a company like Forbes, like the media brand, Forbes, and it pulls up all the writers and what beats they cover. And the recent agencies, we almost all PR agencies have one, they do have cost effective solutions, though also if you’re just a one-on-one looking to have this access. But if you know you’re gonna go out and you’re like, at PR is my focus right now, this is, I’m going all in. I would suggest looking at the PR C R M because it will take, save you a lot of time compared to the free version to be able to find exactly who you need.
RV (08:52):
Is that, and is that like is that like Cision or something else that you’re talking about?
PD (08:57):
Yep. It’s like Cision. There’s one called MuckRack. There’s a cost effective one called Prowly. You’re exactly right. It’s any of the
RV (09:05):
Prowly,
PD (09:06):
Uhhuh
RV (09:10):
. I haven’t heard of that one. Uhhuh.
PD (09:54):
Too,
RV (09:55):
Way. ’cause Not only do you have to, you have to figure out who you gotta figure out what topics are they writing on, who is writing on it. Mm-Hmm.
PD (10:17):
It doesn’t work. And it’s too long. And I love what you’re saying before, and I wanna hop back a minute, to your point, Rory, of serving them, I always tell people, what problem are you trying to solve for the reporter? That’s what they wanna know.
RV (10:29):
Yes.
PD (10:29):
Like, what is the problem? How are you solving it? That’s news. And so, to your point on the communication, I always, always preach no longer than 250 words in your first email. It sounds super short, but all of my editor friends have told they get over a hundred to 150 emails a day of pitches that literally on top of every other news thing that come into the inbox,
RV (10:53):
Wow. They
PD (10:54):
Are not gonna read no longer do you just send that a press release. You’ve got to really build that relationship. And then the art of crafting a pitch is more critical than ever now. For sure.
RV (11:06):
Yeah. And it isn’t, it’s an art and it’s like anything, I mean, it’s, it’s like, are you likely to open your mailbox and mm-hmm.
PD (11:45):
RV (11:46):
PD (11:47):
Number two is tapping into what you just said as well, is serving them content. So becoming a contributor to their outlet and serving them with their expertise. So this works really well. Like, let’s take Fast company for example, right? And you are an expert in kind of business and innovation and even like team structure and management, reach out to the editors and share your story idea, right? Don’t ask them if you can be a contributor ’cause mm-hmm.
PD (12:37):
And nine times Outta 10, because they are desperate for content. Because teams are leaner than ever at all of these media brands, and there’s just not enough of them to create content. And so if you can really provide value as a contributor, also known as a bylined article, right? You get your name listed on Fast Company’s website, and if it’s picked up in print, the magazine, and you start to build that relationship of credibility with that brand serving them. So when you do go in for an ask for your book, you’ve already provided them immense value mm-hmm.
RV (13:20):
Yeah. Yeah. I, I mean I, there’s a couple things there going on. One, I love like treat it like a date, right? Don’t show up and ask to get married. Like, Hey, I wanna be a monthly contributor, right? Like, let’s go on a, let’s go on a date. Let me pick, you know, here’s an idea for a story. Mm-Hmm.
PD (13:42):
Yes, yes. Easy. Yes. Rory. And so many outlets are literally calling and needing it and quality content because like I said, they just don’t have the manpower to produce it anymore. Yeah. Unfortunately.
RV (13:55):
And just to pause, like a little side note here for you listening, if you’re a speaker or an aspiring speaker, you know, with speaking business is another thing that we know a lot about and have a lot of success with, and teaching people how to get speaking gigs. And we say, Hey, the number one reason you get booked to speak, which will never change, is because someone has seen you speak. That’s the, if you wanna be a speaker mm-hmm. You gotta go out and speak, but the number two way to get booked to speak is because someone has read something you have written. And you know, like a lot of speakers become speakers because they start writing. One is a book, which is much harder in longer process than you just start cranking these articles, you know, a couple times a week. And you know, I I, I think of, you know, I’ve got a couple friends, Dory Clark, Matthew Mayberry, like they have really built a great speaking career at a lot of it started from writing these articles and it’s almost better, like not almost better. Mm-Hmm.
PD (15:11):
Yes, it’s
RV (15:12):
Way more valuable.
PD (15:14):
It is. Ryan, I’m so glad you brought that up, because it leads to a much longer lifecycle right. Of promotion and opportunities for you doing this strategy. And like you said, it requires some upfront work, but nothing like, if you’ve already written a book, this is a walk in the park, right? This is nothing of your time. And the beautiful thing is you can pull elements from your book can serve as that content generator for years for you to pull from, so you don’t have to reinvent the wheel with what you’re writing about. Mm-Hmm. And you can
RV (15:43):
Find
PD (15:44):
Ways to thread the content together for soft promotion. But that is one strategy we help do immediately out of the gate, especially during pre-sale, right. In setting up those relationships and starting to build that awareness. It’s a great strategy to start, honestly now, like even if you haven’t thought of your book idea, just incorporate this into your media outreach plan.
RV (16:07):
Yeah. The the other thing that it does is it becomes a huge networking opportunity for you because you become a member of the media. Mm-Hmm. You go from trying to be mm-hmm. In the media
PD (16:15):
To
RV (16:16):
Being I am a, I am the media. Yes. And now you can network with pretty much anybody you wanna know because they, you, you’re in control of who gets mentioned in in that. The, the other thing I wanna mention here is on, on the, on the topic of like getting booked to speak from this mm-hmm.
PD (16:32):
RV (16:33):
And, and for beginners, you also don’t need to, it doesn’t have to be Forbes or entrepreneur No. Or fast company. Like those are the huge ones. But when you were saying they’re spread thin, the ones that are spread the most thin are the, like, trade industry journals. They gotta produce a magazine every month or every quarter.
PD (16:54):
Yes.
RV (16:54):
They’re begging their members to write an article. Nobody wants to do it. And yet, if you are in an industry or a vertical and you go, it’s easy to get those writing jobs and it’s literally, it may not have 500 million readers, but it’s gonna have a thousand of your perfect readers. And that’s, you know, that’s a really big key. You, you think
PD (17:18):
It is key, Rory, that is the other element of this. Make sure you’re contributing to where your target audience is, right? Mm-Hmm.
RV (17:51):
Create
PD (17:52):
A greater opportunity through those smaller publications.
RV (17:56):
Yeah. That, that’s the other thing is like, you’re never gonna get Forbes to send an email. Like even e even if you’re James Patterson, they’re not gonna send an email out about your book. No. But, but if you, if you have some relationships with some of these smaller ones, and that’s part of the deal mm-hmm.
PD (18:41):
I think that first mistake is that people do not plan PR the same way that they plan on writing a book. PR is always like an afterthought. Like, they’re like, oh crap, my book comes out in 60 days. I don’t have the sales I wanted. I need to do, you know, like, now is the time to start. No minimum, I beg you authors to start at least six months out because in media news cycles, it can take that long to place impactful stories. So the ones of the bigger outlets, the bigger podcasts, right, the bigger articles you need that longer lead time. And that’s probably the number one pain point that I see when authors come to us, is they’re scrambling. Right? And it doesn’t have to be that way. The second thing is, I always recommend you plan for a year strategy also, not counting pre-sale, but from when your book launches following that year. Because so many authors, and you’ve seen this already,
RV (19:37):
You’re saying post public, you’re saying post-publication,
PD (19:40):
Post pub, all the way through your year anniversary, have a robust media plan. ’cause Too many authors I’ve seen, they do amazing presale and amazing that first month of pub and then their media just like drops off and they’re, you know, it’s just sprinkled throughout, but it’s a sprint, right? And you need to continue that sprint. And so when you’re looking at planning, of course you wanna bank many of those large episodes as you know, in pre-sale. But it’s just as important to continue that momentum, especially through that first year. And keep your eye on the media and focus on the pr part of the book as well, because that’s where you’re gonna continue to reach new audiences and garner new attention and continue to bring that sales momentum going instead of letting your sales dip and then trying to inflate it back up with media like three months later.
RV (20:33):
Yeah. Yeah. Totally. I mean, you gotta, you gotta keep building the brand, building the platform being out there. So are there certain, are there certain mediums that you think mm-hmm.
PD (20:59):
Right?
RV (20:59):
And it can, it can help, but typically you have to be more focused. If you’re trying to make a sale like a conversion, you’ve gotta be doing other stuff far above and beyond pr. But, but when you,
PD (21:11):
Yes.
RV (21:12):
When you just go, what, what are the mediums or the outlets in PR that you think actually do move the needle on book sales? Like somebody going to buy, not just hearing about it, but actually going to make a conversion.
PD (21:27):
Do you know what we’ve seen the number one medium that sells through PR right now, books specifically is podcasting. Yeah.
PD (21:34):
So podcasts, podcast, podcast, which I know all of your listeners have probably heard before, but it’s still the leading way that converts to a sale, specifically when we’re talking about books. So what I already say is, don’t poo poo any podcast that might not seem like up to your elevation of where you think you should be. Right? Like, let’s not be too big for a britches if they have a target engage audience, those are customers and they’re waiting to buy your book. So it’s like you have to level set what you’re doing with podcasting during a book launch. Like, yes, your end goal might be on your podcast, Rory, it may be on Lewis’s podcast, but let’s also look at the, just like trade media. Let’s look at the ones that still have similar target audiences and do as many podcasts as you can. ’cause That is a huge driver. The other one, Rory, and I know this can seem like a little bit of a stretch, but it still rings true TV converts to sales.
RV (22:34):
Hmm. And
PD (22:34):
So when I’m talking, but I’m talking about like nation national, right? So if you have a book, I mean, for example, anytime we have a client on today’s show or Good Morning America, it moves a thousand to 2000 books, right? Like it moves a significant number of books depending on kind of where you are known wise to the audience. So I know, and national can be kind of far out of reach for some people. And so what I say with that is like, don’t throw away the local TV station. Don’t throw away that opportunity thinking it’s too small for you because they feed up into the national station. So if you have interesting content and you book yourself on your local N B C, it is much more likely for you to get picked up nationally by taking that clip and sending it to the Today Show how you’ve already been on the affiliate and the reaction that you’ve had there. And it is a great proof point to then take to the national media as you pitch them for that opportunity.
RV (23:37):
Yeah. That’s also huge for your, for your speaker demo video and to put, you know, screenshots of it in your book proposal and in your PR to get yourself booked on other podcasts to show those clips of you on tv. Yeah. All of those, all of those things. Your, your media sizzle reel, the, the, yeah. Let’s talk, oh, one thing on the podcast is, you know, just to echo what you’re saying, you know, to, to become a Wall Street Journal, hardcover, business bestselling author, which is like one of the ma it’s the easiest major list to hit. Mm-Hmm.
Speaker 3 (24:11):
RV (24:11):
I say easy, it’s not really easy
Speaker 3 (24:13):
RV (24:13):
Like, you know, to hit the New York Times, you need to, to sell well north of 10,000 units in a week. But to hit the Wall Street Journal business list, it’s typically like a few thousand units, two or 3000 units. So you don’t need millions of people to buy your book in order to become a legit bestselling author, you know? Mm-Hmm.
Speaker 3 (24:33):
RV (24:33):
From a major, you know, reputable list. So if there’s a podcast and they have a thousand of your perfect person and you can get a thousand people to move and buy something like, that’s, that’s huge. Plus, you know, that’s, if you’re lucky enough to get on the Today Show, you might move a thousand copies that way. So, but that’s a thousand out of a bazillion people versus Yes.
Speaker 3 (24:54):
You
RV (24:54):
Know, a thousand out of 5,000 because it’s your perfect audience. So I think that’s really good. You know, one I got one last question for you. Before we do that, I wanna let y’all know, so I mentioned at the start of the show, as you could see, right, Paige knows this space,
RV (25:43):
But in the subject line, I just want you to put book pr, that’s it. Just email us, put book PR in the subject line, send an email to [email protected]. And then we’ll have someone on our team connect you with Paige and walk you through, you know, the whole thing. So you can talk to her directly and her team and see how it works. And you know, I would say, you know, I can say this because I’m not in pr, we’ve seen a lot of people waste a lot of money on PR firms that don’t, they’re not accountable, they don’t have a good plan, they don’t do it, right. They do a total shotgun blanket approach. You know, they’re just sending out a giant press release and they’re not doing the kind of one-on-one follow-up work and building long-term relationships like Paige and her team. So, you know, it can be risky, risky business spending lots of money on pr. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (26:32):
So, you
RV (26:32):
Know, make sure you’re, you’re working with somebody who knows what they’re doing. In this case we’re, we’re totally sure about that with Paige. So email us [email protected]. Yeah, of course, Paige. So one last quick question is on the tv, ’cause this is the, this is the dream, right? Good Morning America Today course show. You know, of
PD (26:51):
Course
RV (26:52):
What you know, I know you’ve, I know you’ve had that happen for clients when it happens, when you get the big national dream television hit
PD (27:02):
Mm-Hmm.
RV (27:04):
How do you get it? What, what are the series of events that led up to that producer saying, yes, I’ll do this. Like, I know it’s always a long shot, but what, what can we do to tip the odds in our favor for a big national TV hit?
PD (27:21):
The first is make sure you’re communicating with the right people. So both at today, good Morning America, c b s, they have specific book producers. So you need to make sure you’re a first talking to the right people. ’cause Too many times people just go to the general producer. That’s not their beat. You need to find the book producer and then to be able to, I mean, it takes a six month plus lead time. They book their spots for books six months out at minimum. So you need to give yourself runway. However, if you miss that window, what you wanna do is tie it to a breaking news or element that’s taking a conversation that’s taking place in society right now, whatever that might be. And you need to be able, again, they don’t care about the book. So you’ve gotta go in first starting with you as a tool and how you’re gonna solve this problem.
PD (28:17):
And it takes months of communication. Like to even, I have relationships with all the book producers and it takes us months of communication and understanding. ’cause There’s only so much airtime that the gift to books. And so you’ve got to be very strategic in how you communicate. And that’s by not spamming them with follow up. Right? What do you think? Do you like my book? How is this doing? What do you think? Right? Am I gonna get a spot like respect their inbox? So only communicate when they respond. You respond back and then give it a couple weeks. Don’t stay on top of it like it is your best friend because you will get blocked very quickly from the show. Mm-Hmm.
PD (29:07):
And again, just serve and interact with them on social. They get to see your name continue to pop up. They get to see your content, kind of psychological play, right? And just the power of how many times you’re introduced to them. And then if you’re realizing your pitch is not working, redo it. That’s what I think so many people are afraid of. They forget. It’s just like email testing, AB testing. Obviously they’re not biting over here. So do, is there a new research study out that you can tie that research into how it relates to your book that’s newsworthy to them? Is there a social trend that is happening that somehow ties into your book? Right? So have some type of element that it’s research-based or fact-based to go with your book and something that’s new and approach it that way if your first pitch isn’t working.
PD (29:59):
And then number three, it’s honestly not give up. So if you realize your book is just not hitting and coming through again, go back to this drawing board and reach out just as a source and an expert. I know it kind of sounds like being in a deb horse, but it’s relationship building. You’re retooling. You are not going in with thinking you’re gonna pitch and your book’s gonna end up tomorrow. You’ve gotta give yourself that runway to be able to do it. So the more you can connect with them on email serving and social, the more you can tailor your pitch to that six month timeframe and have it be something newsworthy and exciting. Or if it has a celebrity angle that you can tie to it mm-hmm.
RV (30:40):
PD (30:41):
More likely you’re gonna end up on national news. ’cause You have to think this is National Morning news is lifestyle, right? It’s lifestyle and news. So it’s talking about some politics, cultural elements, right? All of those. But also the second and third hour of those shows are heavily like health, fitness, books, wellness. And so that’s where you’ve gotta pitch your news. And the book editor sit is typically in that second hour or third hour of the morning show.
RV (31:10):
I love it. I love it. So many helpful tips, Paige. So I know practical, I’m so passionate.
PD (31:36):
Thank you.
Ep 432: Charge More by Doing Less with David Baker
AJV (00:02):
Hey, everybody, welcome to the Influential Personal Brand podcast. This is AJ Vaden here today, and super excited get to interview a, a fellow Nashvillian today. And also David is a, a brand new acquaintance of mine. I actually got cold pitch pitched him, which I, one out of a hundred times will say yes to those. But I thought this conversation looked super interesting. So I thought this would be worth coming onto our show because he is teaching the business of expertise. And as you guys all know, we talk a lot about the importance of being an expert in your field on this show. So what a better way to kick off today’s show with some conversation around what it means to be an expert and the pros and cons and everything in between. So, before I formally introduce David, I just want to give you a little preview of why you stick, need to stick around to the very end.
AJV (00:59):
I would say these are some of the highlights that I kind of pulled out of this, but I’m like, yeah, I wanna, I wanna know the answers to these things. So if you have a question around why long-term relationships could be dangerous for your advisory practice, then you’re gonna wanna stick around if you wanna talk about productizing your service offerings. ’cause I know so many of us are constantly going, man, like, how do I get out of the business of exchanging time for money, constantly time for money? Then this is an interview for you, and if you wanna just in general talk about how to position yourself as an expert, then this is a show that you don’t wanna miss. So, stick around. Don’t fast forward, don’t hang up early. Listen to the entire show. And then you can also catch the recap episode shortly after this.
AJV (01:49):
So now let me formally introduce you to David Baker. Here’s something that’s fascinating. He grew up with a tribe of Mayan and Inmans Indians in Guatemala. And we were just talking. He said, why is your zoom in Spanish? And I’m like, oh my gosh. I was just in Mexico and I couldn’t get it out. And he was like, oh, well, you know, I speak Spanish. I grew up in Guatemala, but not just grew up in Guatemala. Grew up with Mayan Indians. He’s also a airplane pilot, a photographer. He rides motorcycles. He lives here in Nashville, which is a super plus for me. But his work has been featured in the Wall Street Journal, fast Company, U Ss a Today, Inc. Magazine, Forbes. I could go on and on and on, but instead of me telling you about him, why don’t I just introduce him? So, David, welcome to the show.
DB (02:37):
Thank you. Thank you. You got me all excited about sticking around for this. It’s like, wow, that’s sounds interesting. And how did I not pick up that? You’re in Nashville too. I, I when you told me that just a minute ago, I thought, well, how have we not met? I know. Yeah. That’s, that’s great. Thank you for having me.
AJV (02:53):
Love getting to meet other people who live in Nashville. ’cause I feel like so many of my friends today don’t live here. So when I meet somebody else who’s local, it’s a, it’s an extra treat. So as we get into this conversation just to help our audience a and b get to know you a little bit better, can you just kind of give us like a high level overview of how did you go from growing up in Guatemala to moving to Nashville, to writing books, to speaking and podcasting? Like how did this all come about?
DB (03:23):
Well, I’m a total fraud, and this is the, I’ve chosen to say that on your podcast the first time. No, I, my parents were medical missionaries. That’s how I grew up in Guatemala. So, lived in Costa Rica for a year while they learned Spanish, very poorly, learned it
DB (04:11):
And then one day, just with a lot of hubris, honestly, I was talking with my wife. I was sitting on the couch and I said, you know what? The ads in this local newspaper really suck. They’re just like, I could do better than this. I don’t know anything about it, but I think I could do better. So I started an ad agency, didn’t know, had never worked at one, didn’t know anybody else in the field, did it for six years. And it was a pretty ordinary, average firm, you know, it, it was successful, but not wildly successful. But as a part of that process, I subscribed to a newsletter. And part of what came with that subscription is that you could ask the newsletter editor questions for free. I think it was, that was his way of just staying in touch with the market. And one day I said to him, why don’t, why don’t you advise your clients rather than just doing a newsletter?
DB (05:02):
Why don’t you do consulting for them? And he gave me his reasons for why he wasn’t interested, but he said, why don’t you do it? And before I could even think about that, the answer to it, I, he said, and I’ll just put an ad in the newsletter, and you just gimme 10% of whatever you make. And I didn’t think much would come of it, but it seemed like kind of an interesting idea. And people started calling, and very quickly, within six months, it just completely took my life over. I think people were hungry for just business advice. And so that it was somewhat accidental, but I embraced it very quickly with sort of a combination of some expertise and a lot of curiosity and willingness to kind of be out in front of my skis a lot. And since then, obviously it’s been, that just really started the process of learning. And so I just, I feel like I’m just learning a lot all the time and helping people in the process process. So that was 30 years ago, next March when I started this firm and worked all across the world with thousands of firms, and just really love what I do. So I, I’m completely irrelevant to most of the world, but I want to be deeply relevant to a small part of it. And that’s small consulting, branding sort of firms.
AJV (06:16):
Well, I love that. ’cause I think that’s all of our challenges, right? If we try to be everything to everyone, then we are nothing to no one
DB (06:35):
Six, but only four of them were any good, but, so let’s just say four. Yeah.
AJV (06:41):
So a, a huge part of the audience that listens to this show. It’s also, you know, an aspiring author, aspiring speaker. Mm-Hmm. And so what would you say is like, how have you written so many books? Like what would you say is your inspiration? What’s your process and how do you find time to do that in also the midst of all the other stuff you have going on?
DB (07:02):
Hmm. Gosh, I love that question. Not many people ask it. I, I really, really love that question. You know, I think it starts in my mind with having a business that makes enough money that I don’t have to work all the time. So, a business that delivers enough extra time for me to, without any guilt, spend time working on it. That’s part of the answer. I think the other is that I feel like at my core, I’m an author who happens to be a speaker, and who happens to be a consultant. I’m, I’m really feel like I ha I have to say things, even if nobody’s listening, I have to say things. And so, what really makes me think I love this question is, so I, I’m getting ready to do a talk next week, and it’s a new one. I never give the same talk again.
DB (07:53):
I just can’t do it. I, I’m not saying you shouldn’t, I’m just saying I can’t do it. So I’m thinking about what am I gonna talk about? And the topic is, surely there’s more. And then realize, oh my gosh, do I really have anything new to say? And I, I just, just for fun, I added up all the stuff I’ve written, and it ended up being 2 million, 400,000 words over the last published words. So, and a 10th of those are across all of the books, right? So 90% were in other things, articles or podcast episodes or whatever. And so many things hit me after I realized that it’s like, okay, with a narrow focus focus, you, you never run out of things to say, now you think you’re going to, but the narrow your focus, the more you never run out of things to say, I have more unwritten articles now where I have the idea that I’ve ever had in my life, even after written two, 2.4 million words.
DB (08:50):
That’s one thing. The other is that I, like, not that many people read the articles I write, but the articles create an audience who then are going to buy the books and the articles are how I work out what I think. And those things get shaped into a book, right? So if I’d written a book without all of that, all those years of work writing articles, then I wouldn’t have an audience and I wouldn’t have thought through all of these things. So I feel like there’s sort of this mix, this weird mix. You’ve got to have a blog or something that forces you on a regular basis, maybe it’s a podcast, whatever it is that forces you to keep figuring out what you think mm-hmm.
AJV (10:03):
Hmm.
DB (10:03):
I’ll never figure that out until I start writing. So it’s not, oh, clarity. Now, let me write that down. No, it’s like, until I, I wrestle with articulating what I’m thinking, then the clarity comes. So to me, writing is how I figure out what I think.
AJV (10:19):
Hmm. That’s so good. And I loved your comment too about, you know, blogging or even podcasting or just creating content, whatever it is, it’s like, that is the arc of figuring out what you have to say. It’s, it, it takes practice, right? It’s like with anything, in order to be good at anything, you have to do it a lot. And the same thing goes with our thoughts and what we have to say. I love that. Yeah.
DB (10:43):
Yeah. I mean, you’re, so you’re doing this podcast and you’re doing it, I think it’s twice a week, right? Or, you know, it’s regularly. And there are probably times when you think, oh, today I am so excited about another time. It’s like, I don’t know really what I’m gonna say. I don’t know, do I have anything new to add? But this forces you to be on stage and people like you and me and your listeners, we don’t wanna look stupid. Yeah.
AJV (11:07):
We
DB (11:07):
Don’t wanna look stupid. And we’re trying to, we’re like, I wanna stand in front of a group, and then I want to open it up for questions, and I want to not fear a single question that would come my way. And unless you keep putting yourself on the stage in a light, you’re you, you don’t refine what you think. Right. Because, and what forces you to refine it is you don’t wanna look stupid. That’s just, it’s a natural instinct. Right?
AJV (11:33):
Oh, I love that. It’s the whole concept. It’s like, I love that just that idea of like, you can only refine what you think if you talk about it all the time. Right?
DB (11:41):
Right. Yeah.
AJV (11:42):
And I think that, you know, for most people, you know, myself included, sometimes it’s like we struggle with wanting to be a generalist. Like we struggle with, oh, you know, I just think about the amount of speaker press, Kitts that I review for our community at Brand Builders Group. And it’s like, I can speak on nutrition, health, fitness, mindset, goal setting. And I’m like, no, you can’t
DB (12:06):
Yeah. Yeah. I
AJV (12:06):
Can’t. Just because you can doesn’t mean you should. And I love that too. It’s like your entire thing is that like, like narrow it down, right? That’s the, that’s the goal of expertise, right? Mm-Hmm.
DB (12:47):
AJV (13:36):
Mm-Hmm.
DB (13:36):
That then allows you to have excess opportunity that you can waste some of. So if, if you’ve got two options, two potential clients that wanna hire you, then you just choose the one that’s the better client. That doesn’t take any courage at all. But what takes a lot of courage is to say no to one opportunity that isn’t a great fit. So don’t put yourself in those positions. Put yourself in a position where you don’t have to muster all that courage. It’s not a question of knowing the right thing, it’s a question of having the right courage. Hmm. So I I just added a second person recently, but up for all these years, it was just me. Okay. And Billings were somewhere between 900001.7 million, and that’s taking about 10 weeks off a year. I’m not proud of that. We don’t use all that money. We don’t need all that money. That’s not, I’m not saying that I’m better than anybody that way, I’m just saying mm-hmm.
AJV (14:33):
DB (14:33):
Can, you can make a lot of money. You don’t have to be a big firm to make a lot of money. And what that, what that income allows me to do, what it gives me is the freedom to go out and figure things out and then write books, and then that just layers better marketing on top and more opportunity. I can be choos or, and choos or, and it’s just this cycle that repeats and helps make you better and better. Right. The world is just way too complex anymore to pretend that you can know everything about everything you, I’m feeding back to the comment you just made about the generalist, right? Like, people don’t pay a lot of money for generalists. They just don’t, they want, like, if you’re in a messy divorce or some kind of bankruptcy or whatever it is that’s, or a medical issue in your life, all you care about is hiring somebody that knows exactly how to help you in this situation. And, and the money doesn’t matter. Right. But when it’s like you need something done around your house and you just find a handyman that can do most anything and maybe not great at anything, that’s good enough. Right? Like, this is how we think and that’s how our clients think too.
AJV (15:41):
Yeah. I think, you know, one of the things that people struggle with so much is being afraid to be narrow. Mm-Hmm.
DB (15:50):
AJV (15:50):
Right. They’ve got FOMO
DB (16:02):
Right, right.
AJV (16:03):
I know that in my previous consulting life, I said yes to all kinds of stuff that I should not have said yes to. ’cause I’m like, ah, if they can do it, I can do it. I’ll figure it out. Mm-Hmm. But then it took 10 times the amount of time and effort and energy and resources to go and do that for the same price. Mm-Hmm.
DB (16:19):
I
AJV (16:19):
Guess it wasn’t that thing that I could do in my sleep. Right,
DB (16:22):
Right.
AJV (16:23):
Yeah, go ahead.
DB (16:24):
Well, I was just gonna say that sort of ties in with the whole idea of packaging productizing your services too, right? Because you want the efficiency that comes from doing, like, you, you should be leading that relationship. You’re not simply listening to what a client needs, and then you’re taking orders like a waiter would and says, oh, you need that, that, that, okay, now I’ll put, I’ll put together the perfect solution for you. No, it’s like, you’ve done this enough that you know generally what they need, so much so that you can put together a package and either they buy the package or they don’t, and if they buy the package, this allows you to be very efficient in how you work with clients. It also allows you to notice the patterns from one client to the next because you’re doing similar things for each of them. So it just, it, it really builds your practice better.
AJV (17:15):
Yeah. And I love that. So let’s talk about that for a second because that was one of the other things that you had said earlier, is this idea of productizing, right? Mm-Hmm. Your service offerings. So what do you mean by that? How do you do that? Like, what advice would you give people out there going Yes, yes. Like, how do you do that? Help me. Help me. Yeah.
DB (17:33):
Yeah. So here, here’s an illustration. So let’s say I’m going under the knife for surgery, and I’m a little bit nervous, and I talk to the, you know, the, the anesthesiologist will come in first, and, and then the surgeon will come in and they’ll ask you some questions. And usually it’s very perfunctory. But what if you just slowed that down a little bit and you said, Hey, I’m nervous. Can you tell me how you do this? Like, what, what are the steps that you follow? Here’s what you don’t want to hear to the dancer. It’s like, well, listen, I’ve done this a lot. You really need to trust me. I’m just gonna cut you open first. That’s the first thing I always do. Then I’m just gonna kind of look around and figure out what seems like it’s in the right place and what isn’t.
DB (18:15):
And depending on, you know, and like, no, you want, you want 17 steps in order. You want to know that they have done this many times before, that they’re an expert, and you’re, you’re putting yourself in the hands of somebody else. Now, a consulting relationship is not quite as important or critical as that, but your clients have a right to know how you think in advance, what, how you think about certain things and how you go about things. Because what they want to know is that you have applied a process in the past, and if you apply the same process for them, it’s likely to result in something good for them. Right? There’s a good result at the end of it. Productizing your service means that you you approach things in a pretty normal way and this in a regular way. And that regular way should be informed by your, your positioning, right?
DB (19:17):
So, my productized service should be very different than yours. And I also use a productized service to protect myself. So if a client comes to me and they’re sort of a hot mess, they just need lots and lots of help, and I wanna help them, right? But they want a fixed price. And I’m thinking, man, I don’t have any idea. I I don’t wanna learn all this on my own dime and figure this out for you. Like with an unpaid proposal that’s 80 pages long or something, I, I want to protect myself. So if I’m gonna give you a fixed price, I’m gonna have to shoot really high to protect myself. That’s not in your best interest either. So let’s start with a diagnostic or a road roadmapping exercise. Maybe it lasts for two weeks. Mm-Hmm.
Speaker 3 (19:58):
DB (19:59):
It’s $10,000 or 20 or five or whatever it is. And if you’re gonna start going down the productized path, that’s what you would always start with, is how a relationship begins. Picture that you’re on a plane with somebody, you’re both in first class, you’re just chatting. It turns out that they’re possibly a client of yours, they’re a candidate client, they’re not happy with whoever they’re using now. And they’re so intrigued that they say, you know what? This is really interesting. I can’t believe we just kind of ran into each other here. How would you start with somebody like me? You ought to be able to pull up a webpage and say, this is exactly how we start. We call it this. It costs this, it takes this long. This is what it involves. That’s productizing your service offerings. And that’s how you do it to start with at the beginning. And then you can productize everything else as well down the line.
AJV (20:49):
Yeah. No, I love that. It’s like the first product that you sell is a diagnostic.
DB (20:54):
Yeah. Right. Right.
AJV (20:54):
I said, I can’t tell you what you need until I get in there and know what you need.
DB (20:59):
Yeah. Right. Right. Exactly. And, and this ought to be at least as profitable as anything else you do for the client. This should not be a loss leader, right? This is not, you shouldn’t have on your website. Click here for a free 60 minute consultation. It’s like, no, you’re giving away your very best thoughts at that point. Instead, those early conversations should be about whether it’s a good fit. Like, tell me what you’re, what you’re facing, and let me tell you how I approach things and, and how I think about these kinds of things now. Okay. It seems like it’s a good fit. Now let’s do this diagnostic and really figure out what’s wrong, and then we’ll spend the rest of the money way more effectively, rather than just sort of bouncing around at the beginning without knowing where we’re headed.
AJV (21:47):
Now, would you also suggest when people come back from a, you know, diagnostic research type of engagement, that they also have a, a set suite of offerings? Yes. Or, yeah. So can we talk
DB (21:59):
Absolutely about that
AJV (22:00):
A little bit? Like how do people determine like, what are my suite of offerings?
DB (22:04):
Yeah. In
AJV (22:05):
Consultative arrangement.
DB (22:07):
That’s, it’s really good to think about that one. And so not too far from where you’re, where you live. I think it’s at the what’s the mall? The really big, the Green Hills Mall near where you live, right? Mm-Hmm.
AJV (22:30):
45 pages long. Yes.
DB (22:33):
DB (23:31):
‘Cause This is the best client relationships mean that we do these things for you. Otherwise, and this is particularly true, if you have a large firm with a lot of people doing different things, if they don’t wanna use this one third of your services, then you’re gonna lose a lot, lot of money because these people are just sitting around, right? So the best advisors lead the relationship and they’re gonna listen to what the client thinks they need, but then they’re going to say, nah this is what you really need. You need this list of services. And so it should be very specific. It should be in order, and there should be less and less variety around them. And if more and more clients aren’t using a particular thing, then just drop it off. It’s hard to be more specific than that. But generally, you always want a first one, like that road roadmapping thing you were talking about.
DB (24:18):
And then you probably want four or five or six other things on there. If people wanna get a sense of how to productize their services, we just released a completely new website. And I like I’m not sure your listeners or clients of mine, I’m not saying it for that reason, but they might want to look at the service offering. So they’re all very specific. They’re packaged in different ways. They’re all priced. That’s how you want to think about it. You want to get away from Cheesecake Factory menu towards the fixed price sort of menu.
AJV (24:45):
Yeah. What’s what, what website should you go to? If you picked,
DB (24:49):
Oh, sorry. Yeah, I didn’t even say right. Punctuation.Com. Yeah, it just released yesterday. So
AJV (24:54):
Punctuation.Com, if you wanna go, just check out what a suite of offerings mm-hmm.
DB (25:09):
Right? Right,
AJV (25:10):
Right. A huge part of this, it’s like when you offer less, then you can become better at it, which means you can charge more for it. Right. You can charge at a, a premium. But it’s like when you have 20, 30 things that you’re trying to do, it’s like, then you’re never doing the same thing enough to go, man, I can literally do this in my sleep. Yeah. It doesn’t mean near enough time to complete the same task. And
DB (25:34):
Don’t you think there’s sort of a dirty secret in our industry that many of us in our hearts don’t really believe we’re worth the money?
AJV (25:42):
Oh, yeah,
DB (25:43):
Definitely. And, and so we overdeliver, we, we keep checking in more than we need to. We write reports that are totally unnecessary, and let it, let’s just like, if you wanna report, take notes, I mean, that’s how we ought to think about this stuff, right? But we’re still, we’re so oversensitive about delivering value that we’re undercutting ourselves constantly. And if you are, I wrote a more recent book called Secret Trade Craft, and one of the things I said in there is that as you mature in your particular field, you should deliver less for more. Mm-Hmm.
AJV (26:27):
Delivered
DB (26:28):
To clients to justify your views because you were you were not very confident, right? Yeah. And, and, and you strip all that stuff out and you get to the core of what they need to hear. And this is really, really valuable because experts know how to cut to the chase. Right. And they’re not embarrassed by how simple their advice is that, anyway, I just wanna, I I, I wish I could preach that from the mountaintops,
AJV (26:54):
DB (27:23):
Yeah.
AJV (27:24):
I now know why this book is constantly selling thousands of copies every single week. Mm-Hmm.
DB (27:42):
Mm-Hmm.
AJV (27:46):
Right name. Clear
DB (27:58):
Mm-Hmm.
AJV (27:59):
And there’s power in that. So I love that. I love that idea of productizing it by starting with a diagnostic and then, then you can go, okay, all the things I offer, you need one, four, and five.
DB (28:10):
Right, exactly. Right. Yeah. And I know how to charge for it. We don’t have to waste a lot of time figuring that out. Right. No scoping questions.
AJV (28:18):
I love that. That’s so, it’s, it’s good sage advice for all of us where we feel like we have to offer everything to remember. No, you don’t.
DB (28:27):
Yeah. No, you don’t. It’s motivated, it’s motivated by our own insecurities more than it is. And when you have a client who’s pushing you to deliver everything, they’re not a qualified client. Mm-Hmm.
AJV (28:36):
DB (28:37):
Like a qualified client trusts you to do just what they need and not, and not waste their time with anything extra.
AJV (28:43):
And that’s where that courage to say, no, you’re not of me. No, I don’t do that. That really comes in. I love that. So, so good. That’s such wanted advice. Okay, next question. ’cause I know I’m watching the clock and I promised, you know, 45 minutes. But I would love to know like, what are some of these like, positioning mistakes that people make? So we’ve been kind of talking about, you know, this idea of like, position yourself in a way that you are this expert mm-hmm.
AJV (29:27):
And now they’re like, how do I get out of this? Mm-Hmm.
DB (30:04):
Mm-Hmm.
DB (31:01):
And if you want, I leave this out, but if you want, did you enjoy the work? So those three things, and you’re gonna end up with this map of maybe five to 20 different options, right? Then the next thing you do is try to draw a circle around the things that you’re going to include in your new positioning. And this is where the tension comes, because your tendency is to want to draw the biggest circle possible so that you don’t waste any of the opportunity that you’ve had, right? Mm-Hmm.
DB (31:56):
It’s like, nah, you can’t really do that
AJV (33:24):
DB (33:48):
That right? That’s a more human approach, right? It’s a more human approach. It acknowledges how difficult it is. Like the, the way you said that just a second ago is like that logically, literally that’s what you should say. But it’s not what we humans do. Yeah. It’s just too hard, right? So, yeah, that’s exactly right. And I think we just need to recognize that this is a hard thing, right? What I don’t wanna do is, I don’t wanna wake up one day and realize it’s like hit myself on the head. It’s like, shoot, my business is, has been shaped entirely by what other people want me to do.
AJV (34:20):
Hmm.
DB (34:21):
Now, in a way, you kind of have to do some of that, right? You can’t just create a business that nobody
AJV (34:34):
DB (34:35):
Maybe it is, maybe it isn’t, right? Your clients want you to do this ’cause they love you. Well, that would make that client happy, but then what’s gonna happen to your life? I mean, you have, your business has got to serve you the business. It, you, you’ve gotta be in charge of this thing, right? Don’t let the, don’t wake up one day and realize, okay, I started this business years ago because I wanted more time, I wanted more money, and I wanted more control. And now I look at my business six years later and I realize I’m spending too much time working. I’m working harder than I was. I’m making less money and I don’t have as much control that is messed up, right? Mm-Hmm.
AJV (35:19):
DB (35:34):
And
AJV (35:34):
It’s like, well, it’s so full because I jam packed it full. That’s why. Yeah. No one else to blame just me. But it’s that, you know, it’s back to, it’s hard to say no.
DB (35:45):
It is, it is.
AJV (35:46):
It’s a lot of clarity, a lot of courage to go, that’s not good for me. Even though it might feel good when I say yes. Yeah. It’s not good for me, not good for business to be like that.
DB (35:59):
And you’ve gotta make some brutal decisions that are going to disappoint some people, right? I, I’m not a particularly a religious person, but there, there’s this story of Jesus walking through this town, and he had the power to heal everybody. And I’ve, by just touching them, and I’m wondered, you know what, why didn’t he just touch everybody? Hmm. Like, and that’s sort of like you and you, you’re not, we’re not Jesus, but we, we have the power to help a lot of people, and it’s really hard to walk away from that. But, you know, you’ve gotta put your own oxygen mask on first. And some of the things that look really selfish, if you didn’t, if you’d never heard that repeated at the beginning of flights all the time, and you saw parents putting their own masks on first before they help their kids, you’d think, well, geez, that is selfish. No, no. It’s, it’s, it’s how more of us are gonna survive than not. And we have to keep there’s just, there’s so much. When you are good at something and you’re a genuinely good person, you wanna help everybody. But that is sometimes done at the expense of who you are and the other people in your life, and it’s just gotta stop.
AJV (37:14):
Hmm. That is so good. You can say that 1000 more times because we all need to hear it. We all need to hear it. And the, the truth is, and I love that story about Jesus and it as it relation to how we run our businesses, it’s like we aren’t meant to help everyone,
DB (37:31):
Right?
AJV (37:31):
Like we are uniquely positioned to help the people that we were meant to help.
DB (37:36):
Yeah. And
AJV (37:37):
If we stay focused on that, we will help more. Yeah. In the right ways that we are, you know, only we can do. And I love that. That’s so good. All right, I’ve got one last question for you.
DB (37:47):
Okay.
AJV (37:48):
How do you make your, you, your expertise or what I would say your uniqueness, how do you make that more narrow mm-hmm.
DB (38:10):
Mm-Hmm.
DB (39:11):
And if you find a lot more than that, then you’ve got to narrow it further, right? If you find less than that, then you’re probably gonna run out of opportunity and you need sufficient opportunity. You don’t want to go into any specialist sort of advisory role, assuming that you can lock up more than about 1% of the opportunity. And so the math is pretty deep, it’s talked about in the book, but that’s how you decide exactly how narrow to go. And so, so you’re broad and you picture yourself walking towards the right solution. And there are two things that will stop you on this path. As you walk from generalist to specialist. The first thing that might stop you is courage. And you just gotta get over that, right? The second thing, the legitimate thing that would force you to stop on that path is running out of opportunity. So you want to be in that special place where there’s not too many competitors, but still enough opportunity. And that math is 10 to 200 competitors.
AJV (40:10):
Hmm. That’s good. I love that. And I think too, it’s like many of us, I think we forget to look around and go, what is everyone else doing? Not that we should do what we do based on what others are doing, but it’s still good to have that comparative analysis of what is out there, what are people doing? Mm-Hmm. What are people charging, right?
DB (40:30):
Is
AJV (40:30):
There enough demand? Is there not enough demand? Not that it would change who we are and what we do, but mm-hmm.
DB (40:36):
AJV (40:36):
To have that comparative analysis of is there enough demand in the marketplace? Is there too much supply? You know, just basic laws of economics. Super.
DB (40:45):
Yeah. I mean, if we, we could apply that to your, your business. So the people who know branding, there are tens and thousands of those people, right? You apply branding in a very narrow way in your business, and that’s personal branding. Mm-Hmm.
AJV (41:10):
And it’s so funny because we left the world of, you know, corporate consulting and sales specifically in sales when we started Brain Builders Group. And it was a, a very decided decision of we don’t work with companies.
DB (41:26):
Mm-Hmm.
AJV (41:26):
We work with people, right?
DB (41:28):
And
AJV (41:29):
The hardest temptation in the last five years has been to say no to all the people that we work with. They’re like, oh, we love what you’re doing for us. Can you come do this for our company?
DB (41:39):
Right. Because
AJV (41:40):
It would’ve been so easy to go. Sure,
DB (41:42):
Yeah. I’m not,
AJV (41:44):
It applies and it’s been the hardest thing in the, it’s where we’ve been most disciplined of going, we don’t work with companies. We, in fact, we had to put it in all of our branding to hold ourselves accountable.
DB (41:55):
Right, right, right.
AJV (41:56):
It’s everywhere. So that we remind ourselves, oh yeah, we said we weren’t gonna do that.
DB (42:00):
Well, the best, the the best way to understand positioning is that there are a lot more things you don’t do than there are things that you do. Right? So it’s choosing a positioning is, is an exercise in irrelevance. Yeah. You’re becoming irrelevant to more and more people. And in the process you’re becoming more relevant to a smaller group.
AJV (42:19):
Love that. And I’ll say my drop on that comment, that was awesome. Such a great interview. I love also the narrow focus of the interview, which is apropos for the conversation. Y’all, if y’all wanna check out David and learn more about all the things that he does, go to david c baker.com. I also wanna give him a shout out for his I don’t think it’s your latest book, but it’s
DB (42:46):
The next to last book, right?
AJV (42:47):
Next to last book. It’s expertise is. So go to expertise is, I’ll put both of those in the show notes. David, if people wanna catch up with you on social media, is there one place that you would send them?
DB (43:02):
Probably LinkedIn David C. Baker, my middle initial, sometimes help you get to the right place. Or just the whatever, the slash dc b on LinkedIn. Happy to connect with people there.
AJV (43:13):
That’d be awesome. And we’ll put that in the show notes. Again, so check him out on his website. David C. Baker, connect with him on LinkedIn, and then go check out his book expertise Is is the website. Pick up a copy. Read it. David, pleasure to meet you. Thank you so much for being on the show. Thank
DB (43:31):
You, AJ.
AJV (43:32):
And everyone else. Stay tuned for the recap episode and we will see you next time on the influential Personal brand.
Ep 430: How AI Will Reshape Customer and Member Experience with Pat Flynn
RV (00:02):
Oh, you are in for a treat today. You’re gonna meet one of the smartest men in this business. One of my favorite people that I have ever met in the space of personal branding. One of the godfathers of personal branding, certainly in the world of podcasting. The host of the Smart Passive Income podcast, pat Flynn. We’ve been friends, loose friends for years. Like we’ve always known each other. We’ve hung out a little bit here, a little bit there. And I, this is someone that I personally admire. He’s also the Wall Street Journal bestselling author of a book called Superfans. And and he is, will It Fly? Like he’s written, he’s written a couple books and most recently he has a YouTube channel that he’s grown to 700,000 subscribers in just over two years. So we’re gonna hear a little bit about that. He’s an advisor to many different SaaS companies, software as a service companies. I’m planning on asking a little bit about that, but I never know where it’s gonna go. We’ll see, we’ll see where the flow takes us. Anyways, pat, I’m really genuinely honored, man, that you’d make time to, to be here to share your story with our community.
PF (01:10):
Thank you, Rory. I appreciate that. And I’ve never been introduced as the godfather of anything, so I don’t know if I’ve reached that age now, where, or, or maybe it’s the beard. I don’t know. But I appreciate the amazing intro and I look forward to the chat.
RV (01:22):
Yeah, man, I, I mean, I think philosophically I’ve just, you know, we’ve been around a long time and you, there’s a lot of people who try to make a lot of money quickly from their audience. There’s a lot of people who, eh, bend the truth a little bit and kinda over sensationalize and hype up the bonuses and there’s a countdown timer, but not really, you know, and I just have always felt like you’ve not been about that stuff. You’ve been about adding value, serving people. And I wanna start there. I wanna start with the podcast. ’cause Obviously, so smart passive income. I saw this. So you’ve been podcasting now 13 years, 700 episodes, 80 million downloads. How do we do that?
PF (02:12):
Yeah, I mean, and I’m just a regular dude recording this out of my office at home in San Diego, you know, and that’s the cool thing. The ability to share your voice out there on a podcast and have it sort of amplify out there into the world and find your people is, is really amazing. Now, I started in 2010, actually. The, the fun story about that was I bought my equipment in 2008. I had gotten laid off from my architecture job, started a online business to help architects pass an exam. It started to do pretty well. And I started to share that information on a new blog called smart passive income.com. And I had always wanted to start a podcast. So I bought all this equipment and it was kind of just sitting there collecting dus. ’cause I was actually too afraid to put my voice out there, at least with a blog.
PF (02:51):
I could write something and edit it and make it perfect before I hit publish, but with my voice, like, that’s, that’s hardcore. And it wasn’t until I got some great advice from some mentors and finally just said, you know what? Screw it. Like, what’s the worst that can happen? Nobody’s gonna listen. But what if people do listen and then listen? They did. And not only did they listen, they shared, and then more people started to listen. And so now, 13 years later, it’s pretty crazy that I’ve, I’ve become somebody who’s like, oh, this person’s been around for a very long time. That’s not to say you can’t get started today. I think there’s a lot of opportunity in the world of podcasting. We’re still in the early days of podcasting, in my opinion. Even though it might seem saturated, there’s still, I think only two and a half to 3 million active podcasts that are out there versus, you know, with blogs and other, I mean, there’s 50 million or a hundred million of those.
PF (03:40):
We’re still in the early days of podcasting. And I think it’s because it’s a little bit more challenging, like I said, to put your voice out there. But when you do, people get to hear the real emotion, the real voice. And I think that’s my best advice is you just wanna be yourself on, on audio. And now in combination with video, with YouTube and YouTube picking up video podcasts now as well as Spotify, and there’s more and more people now going to YouTube to listen and watch podcasts the opportunity for growth is even better than when it was just audio only. And, and YouTube wasn’t really focused on that kind of long form content. So how do you do it? You gotta stay consistent, that’s for sure. But I think there’s something to be said for speaking the truth, being yourself, but also I think the, the idea of edutainment, you know, you can’t just share the information anymore.
PF (04:27):
You gotta be entertaining in some way, whether it’s the story you tell or the emotion that you put into it. I think we are now in an age, compared to when I started, when I started, information was valuable because it wasn’t always there, right? If you had the info that was worth paying for, that was worth getting access to, et cetera. Now we’re all sitting at a buffet and there’s so much information and everybody’s stuffing their plates full, right? So in this world that we’re in as like a buffet of content, and everybody’s just a glutton right now I wanna be the chef who specially prepares something in the other room. And I want it to be special and different and an experience, right? Love that. It’s not even just about the food, it’s about it how I treat you when you walk in and the place setting and the story behind this dish and why it’s so special to me, those are the things that today are standing out a lot more than just, oh, here’s the info that literally everybody else is saying too.
RV (05:21):
I love that illustration. I mean, it’s interesting when you talk about creating superfans, it’s just sort of like customer experience. In my mind I kind of put that together as like customer experience for a digital experience. Mm-Hmm.
PF (06:24):
I mean, as I often say, the riches are in the niches. And if you can niche down, you almost have a place setting that has a person’s name when they sit down. Have you ever been to a restaurant that you’ve maybe had reservations at and there’s like a, a, a placard on the table with your name or your, you know, you and your date’s name on it or something like that? Alone is an amazing first impression. Now, you can’t put anybody’s name at the beginning of the podcast and, you know, serve that to everybody. But if you can connect with who it is that you’re creating this for, what are their issues, speaking their language, and really get to know who it is the audience is. The more you can nail that niche, the more the episode, the audio, the stories you tell are gonna feel like it’s just for them.
PF (07:04):
And that’s what you wanna happen. You want to have the listener feel like that you made this episode just for them. And so, again, I keep saying the S word stories, tell stories, get emotional. If you can get a person to laugh, cry, smile, get angry, fight with you, fight against you, some sort of emotion, then it’s gonna, it’s just gonna resonate more and, and, and, and connect more. And, and that’s where it goes one level deeper than just information. It’s now emotionally affecting a person. And, and, and that’s where a person then will wanna come back or have something to say and engage or something to share, Hey, you gotta listen to this ’cause this made me, you know, this got me fired up. Right? Those are the things that are gonna get you to grow. And then beyond that, like connecting with the individual listeners in some way, shape, or form is very important.
PF (07:54):
Yes, it’s a scalable thing, much like anything, YouTube, blogging, podcasting, et cetera. But if you ever give yourself the opportunity to try to connect with an individual or individuals who are actually listeners, one thing that surprised a lot of people, I shared this on stage a number of years ago, but I still do this. I still try to make a connection, whether it’s through a DMM or a Skype call. It’s no longer Skype. It’s usually Zoom now, but, but back then it was Skype with 10 new email subscribers every single month I try to get on an actual live call with them, just, just me and them, not recorded or anything. I just want to get to know them a little bit more. And I do that every month with 10 different people. Wow. And those are some of the most golden conversations because now I get a pulse on exactly who I’m creating content for, what are their stories.
PF (08:38):
And so when I’m actually creating content for everybody, I can actually think of, you know, Jonah, who I just spoke to, who has a problem and a specific challenge, and I can actually feel like I’m creating it for that person. And of course, if I attract the right people, it’s not just Jonah, I’m affecting, it’s everybody else who fits in the same niche. And, and plus it’s just like inspiring to talk to somebody who you know, that you can have an impact on. And you actually don’t have to play that game of just making up an avatar. You actually have a real person that you can think about.
RV (09:07):
That’s awesome, man. 10 new people every single month. I mean, that’s a good, that’s a commitment, but what a great way to stay connected to, to the audience. I love that. So I wanna I wanna ask you about the SaaS stuff because I, I, I haven’t heard you talk a lot about it, but I, I’ve always noticed it in your bio and it’s something that I respect particularly because I, you know, really respect ConvertKit, which I, you know, you’re public about that you’re one of their advisors. And Circle has got a great reputation. You know, I’ve, we’ve had Nathan Barry on the show here before. Yeah. we, we personally use Keep and Infusionsoft, and, and so that’s what we tend to resell, but we’re technically technology agnostic. But I love Nathan. I love the product. A lot of our customers use it. It, it counts for a lot to me to know that people like you are there. So how does it, how does that work? Like, what does it mean to be an advisor to a company? I certainly don’t want you to share any, you know, specific details about your relationship with any of the companies that you’re an advisor on. But I think, you know, a lot of personal brands are looking to scale their income. One of the ways to do that, I think is to sort of take equity positions or profit positions
PF (10:22):
A hundred percent. You know,
RV (10:23):
So can you just like, tell us how does it work? What do you do? How does it come up? How do you have that conversation? You know, do Yeah. Do they fly you around on private jets or is it not quite that, you know, like, just a little bit about that.
PF (10:38):
No, I’ve, I’ve never been flown around in private jets yet. Maybe if any of the companies are listening, we might need to have a conversation about that, but No, I’m just kidding.
PF (11:33):
But I’m a trusted person who’s on the advisory team, who can offer genuine feedback, brutally honest advice, all those kinds of things based on my knowledge and where I’m at in this space. And it works out with a lot of these companies because I’m actually a user of most of these products, if not all of them. And as a result, I can sort of take that approach of a, of a user and just be honest and upfront about why this sucks or why this is great, or how I would present that to, to the bigger audience. That way they can get ahead on problems and things like that. Oftentimes the relationships that I bring to the table are of, of value and, and oftentimes are more valuable than the advice, just introductions to key people who can help grow the company or support the company in some way, shape, or form.
PF (12:16):
Sometimes it’s people asking, Hey, do you know about anybody if and then other times it’s me just kind of stepping into it and saying, Hey, I thought you guys might like this introduction. ’cause I feel like there’s some synergies there. So just kind of genuinely looking out for the company in, in that way and, and being sort of supportive when, when in need. And, and that’s kind of it. I mean, sometimes it requires a little bit more work when there’s something going on. For example, there might be a, a, a launch or some big news that’s coming and they need some help with the copywriting or, you know, sometimes it gets that technical, but not usually. But how do we get there? Typically these start with me being a user and then trying to become what I like to call a super user.
PF (12:57):
And that means not just using the product, you know, like everybody else, but using it in maybe innovative ways or, or challenging the company, if you will. Challenging the product, kind of overusing it, if you will. Breaking it often. And also being able to offer advice ahead of time. This is a very, very smart thing that you can do as a personal brand, is if you use a product a lot and you know that there’s improvements that can be made, imagine if you actually were in a way, a part of the company. That’s the approach you wanna take and imagine that even before it happens a couple times I’ve written like a two or three page p d f report to these companies that I was either an affiliate for or just used and said, Hey oh, interesting. Like proactively just said, Hey, here’s some thoughts.
PF (13:40):
Yeah, exactly. I mean, I think Noah Kagan did this to try to get hired at Mint. He wanted to become marketing director there, and they were like, no, who are you? You have no experience. And then he created like a 20 page report on what they should do, and then they hired him. So you can do the same thing proactively creating a plan or support or, or just kind of, here’s what’s missing with this product. I’d love to be able to be even more involved. I know I’m an affiliate and I know I’m a user, but might we be able to have a conversation of a more formal way that I can continue to help and serve the company? And that’s of the, of interest to them, because you are a user and you can almost, in a way, kind of get ahead on things because you’re proactively thinking about it, unlike a regular customer.
PF (14:18):
Not all companies are interested in that. Not all companies are set up for that. Some will get set up for that. And, and others already have that in place. And, and we’ll just add you on. It’s really interesting because the payout comes when that company is either, you know, IPOs or goes public or gets acquired. And of the 10 companies that I’ve advised two of them have been acquired fairly recently. Teachable was one a number of years back who got acquired by Hot Mart for I think nine figures. And, you know, nine figures is a lot. And a, a a fraction of a percentage goes a long way when it’s, you know, another zero added onto the end. And then more recently I’m proud to say a, a team that I worked with squad cast, got acquired by D Script, which is pretty cool.
PF (15:07):
And I got a nice little check from that too. So it’s like, you know, you work hard, you, you, you have a way of influencing these companies without actually like, working in the company as an advisor. And that’s the coolest part. Like, I feel like I now have like so many irons in the fire where I just have to like, share my expertise or share my honest take on something and, and be there as a resource or make introductions. And if that company wins and I was able to help support that, then we all win. Especially if there’s a big payday at the end.
RV (15:35):
That’s awesome. I love that. Now with the board, so if you take a board of directors seat, now you have, there’s some liability that comes with that in the, and an advisory role. You don’t have any of that, I guess, or less of that, maybe
PF (15:51):
Not in the same kind of way. I think I know what you’re talking about, but there’s still, there, there have been times where it’s gone gotten kind of weird, if you will. For example, you know, if I’m in a, a, an advisor for company A, but then another friend of mine creates a sort of similar product, if you will, and I wanna support my friend, it’s like, well, I can’t necessarily like, you know, do an email blast for you because you’re actually a competitor to this other tool that I’m actually an advisor for. So a couple times it’s been weird like that. Or another time another company created a feature that was literally the other company that I advised, but now it’s a tool that was injected into another company that I advised. So it was like, it, it became a weird, like, which one do you choose, pat? Like, right. It’s either us or them. And it was like, pick a, this is weird. Yeah, it was
RV (16:40):
Divided
PF (16:42):
Maybe my advisor ships are a little too close together. I don’t know. No, it, it, it, it’s great. I’m proud of like what circle’s done, ConvertKit’s done really well. Samcart as well. Just it’s fun to see these companies grow and know that you had some impact on it. And, and you know, to be there as even just a, a, a shoulder to cry on sometimes, or, or, or a piece of advice, you know, it goes a long way for a lot of these companies.
RV (17:07):
Wow. And so SamCart’s another one.
PF (17:09):
Yeah. Yeah,
RV (17:10):
Man. So you’re, that’s the other thing is you’re a affiliate of all of these. You u you u you use them, you super use them, you affiliate them, you giving a feedback ’cause you’re doing it. And, and you’re also helping promote the sales of them and then the relationships. Yeah,
PF (17:25):
That’s the other part about this. It’s like when, now when I promote ConvertKit, for example, I can say, Hey, I’m not just a user, like I’m actually an advisor. That’s how much I believe in this company. I’m actually an advisor, so you can trust my recommendation even more now. ’cause My name is like on
RV (17:39):
It, right? But you’re, you’re in, you’re in, you’re in all in on it.
PF (17:42):
Right? Which helps the affiliate earnings as well.
RV (17:45):
Yeah, I love that, man. That’s, thanks for sharing that. I know that that’s like, yeah, yeah. Pretty intimate question to ask somebody. But like, that’s really helpful. And I, I think, you know, there’s, there’s certain places where it’s strategic and it, it makes, it makes a lot of sense. So coming back to in general, how you’ve gotten to where you are. You, you’re doing, you’ve got this advisory thing going on. You, so you’re doing advi, you’ve got smart passive income, you’ve got the things going on there, you’re speaking, you’re writing books, you’re advising like it’s turned into a lot. One of the things that’s more recent is tell me about the YouTube channel and the whole Pokemon phenomenon. How did that come about? ’cause That’s growing really fast.
PF (18:35):
Yeah, this is, this is different. So in 2020, of course Covid hit, a lot of us were at home trying to figure out what to do to fill in that time. And my kids got into Pokemon, it was a trading card game. They started collecting them. Whatever the kids are into I wanna get into as well so that we can chat about these things. I don’t just want them to be interested in what I’m interested in. I wanna get interested in what they’re doing. Same thing happened in 20 18, 20 19 with Fortnite. My son and I, we entered a lot of tournaments together. It was a lot of fun. But then he got kind of outgrew that. Anyway, Pokemon came about and I started to dig into the world of YouTube and there’s a lot of YouTubers or poker tubers as they’re called, who talk about the cards and talk about the value.
PF (19:17):
And some of them are in it for more investment purposes, flipping others are in it for the passion and the collections and the completions. There’s like trophy cards, there’s more modern, there’s vintage, all this kind of nostalgic stuff. And I just went deep. And the kids eventually, after several months, like kind of just went on to something else. And I just kept going. So much so that I became involved in the community. I was a moderator for several of these channels. A lot of these creators go live and they opened these packs of Pokemon cards and there’s like a built-in mystery, right? You don’t know what’s inside until it’s open. But these guys open up these cards and there’s thousands of people around the world watching. They’re watching a person open up a pack of Pokemon cards. That’s like
RV (19:54):
Ryan’s toy review basically. Yeah.
PF (19:56):
Kind of like that. Kind of like that. And I was like, you know, all these guys are doing the same thing. I have done YouTube for a while. I think I can bring something different to this space and, and bring some story, bring some entertainment, bring some high quality footage, and all that kind of stuff. ’cause Everybody was kind of doing the same thing. So that’s what I did. And in January of 2021, deep Pocket Monster was created, and in 11 months and 27 days we hit a hundred thousand subscribers. And then we’re currently now approaching 700,000 subscribers in less than three years. Wow. And what’s crazy is we are approaching 200 million views so far which is like more than my podcast has gotten over the last 13 years more than my other YouTube channel for entrepreneurship has gotten ever 10 x more than ever.
PF (20:44):
It’s just blowing up and it’s pretty cool because community has become a big part of this. So much so that I hosted a live event in Anaheim called Card Party. And it was sort of experimental just to see like, Hey, how much does this community actually want to get together in person and hang out
RV (21:42):
Youtuber model. You’re creating content for a community and you’re letting ads, you just check a box that says, let run ad let ads run on my channel. And you collect a percentage of that for the, for the views.
PF (21:52):
Correct. But it is taking a lot of mental space and not just for like, let me get on video and, and film something. And if you watch the videos, you’ll see they’re, they’re different. They’re storytelling, they’re completing challenges within 24 hours. There’s, there’s a lot of notes of Mr. Beast in there in terms of how the story is told and and such. And it’s funny ’cause our, the majority of the audiences, 30 to 40 year old men, people Wow. My age, who grew up with Pokemon, who now have the money to spend on Pokemon, right? And, and they’re bringing their kids along with it too, there was a lot of families coming to Card Party actually. But yeah, that, that’s the model. But sponsorship dollars come into play as well, not just advertising. And then the affiliate stuff, I’m an affiliate for a binder company and I’m, I’m now the number one affiliate for that binder company now.
PF (22:42):
And we’re even doing partnerships where like, now they made, like, again, remember what I said, like adding value to that company. They’ll wanna work with you because they see the value that you have to add. This binder company called Vault X, they saw that I was doing a lot of volume for them, and I said, Hey, I think it’d be cool if we did a deep pocket monster branded version of, of the binder. So that’s what this is right here. And this is a prototype. And so now we’re working together on stuff and, and now everybody can win. So I’m taking a lot of the things I learned in business into this space that hasn’t ever seen anything like this before. Right? In our space, entrepreneurship events happen all the time, not in this space. So I was able to step up and be like, Hey, let me be the person to kind of round up everybody.
PF (23:22):
And what was nice is everybody, like I didn’t have to pay speakers or nothing. It was just people wanted a space to hang out. And all the big names came to you know, affiliate marketing and, and you know, creating my own merch. Now it’s, it’s, it’s kinda wild, but all the principles remain, which is providing value to an audience and, and making every piece of content. I create a gift. And that’s something that I think I heard Ryan Trahan say, which I really love. And it, it, it, it relates to both informational channels and also entertainment channels. Like, you want what you create to be a gift to your audience and you wouldn’t serve them crap, right? So why are we just publishing something? Because we just need to hit a schedule versus let’s create something of value, something that’s worth their time, something that tells a good story so that when they unwrap it, they feel something. Right. And again, going back to emotion, what I said earlier.
RV (24:16):
Yeah, I I I love that. I mean, I think, and community is something I think you’ve done really well in general with various brands and, and things that you’ve been a part of. As you think forward, personal branding, podcasting, YouTubing, when you look ahead, what do you see? Like what do you see are the biggest trends that are coming or the things that we should be paying attention to at sort of like a a a high level? What are you thinking about of going, eh, I have my eye on this, I got my eye on that, or I’m preparing for this, or I’m really leaning into this or that.
PF (24:55):
Yeah, it’s, it’s not AI or anything AI related, although that’s obviously here and it’s gonna have an impact one way or another. But all the more reason to focus on what I’m about to share with you, which is community micro communities, communities that are very specific to a certain group of people. We’re focused on community and s p i now, in fact, we changed our business model to be from online courses, which we started selling in 2017. And I mean, to give you an example, one of our courses Power Up Podcasting is sold over two and a half million dollars worth. But even though that was working and could still work, we noticed over time, especially during 2021, that the completion rates of our courses and just the interest in taking a solo course was waning. And it made sense because people were kind of getting tired of just learning and learning and learning.
PF (25:44):
They, they wanted and needed more. They needed accountability, they needed connection. And, and, and so we actually completely changed our business model. We still have the same courses. We have, I think over a dozen courses now and workshops and other things people can participate in, but we now call it community powered courses. We’ve actually hired for this, we’ve changed our business model for this, and we have something called the All Access Pass, which has been the most successful thing we’ve ever launched. And what it is, it’s a monthly subscription to a membership that gives you access to all of our courses. Now, if I were to just say that and that alone, that would not be a value just to say like, here’s more information. What it is, the secret sauce is you get the community and the guidance along with it. So no, you don’t take all the courses, you take the three that align in sequential order with where you are at in your journey right now.
PF (26:35):
So if you’re just starting out, for example, you get into the All Access Pass, you take Smart From Scratch, which is our course to help you find your niche, then you take Email Marketing Magic so that you can grow your email list from there. And then you can kind of choose your own adventure from there. If you wanna do YouTube, take the YouTube course. If you wanna do podcasting, take the podcasting course so you can kind of like choose your own adventure. If you are a podcaster, then take our podcasting courses and make sure to take our video podcasting course next. Excuse me. So you have these guided pathways, but what is most successful in the All Access Pass is throughout the year we have these things called accelerators. And an accelerator is, you can take the course with other people and a coach at the same time.
PF (27:16):
So this happens on a time to basis. So on September, you know, 19th, for example, this year we’re gonna host our podcasting accelerator, which means anybody who’s a member of Pro or of our, of of our All Access Pass can start on that same day, get fed which lessons and modules to view what to turn in by when. And after six weeks you’ll have your podcast and if you have questions, there’s a guide, my team’s there, you’re going through it together, you’re able to support each other, find partners, et cetera. Those have been the most successful things because now people are completing them at like a 80% completion rate, which is kind of unheard of for online courses, but it’s not, it’s because it’s not just an online course, it’s community powered courses. And what’s cool is people get a result and then they wanna stick around for the next thing and the next thing and the next thing.
PF (28:04):
So we now have m r r monthly recurring revenue on our business for the first time. And we no longer feel like we just have to keep serving the same solo one-off courses at a certain price. We can continually add to this library and add more value. And, and the more people that are in there, the more valuable it, it becomes micro communities are, are the future. And if you don’t have a microcommunity in your space, if you don’t have a space for your people, whether it’s your students, your subscribers, your clients to come together and meet each other, well then you have nothing that’s keeping people there, because again, the information and even the offering, even as a, even as a service can be found elsewhere. But as you often hear people come for the content, but they stay for the community. And so community’s got, like, to me that’s absolutely vital, like, like table stakes at this point. You have to have that safe space for your people to come together. ’cause That’s gonna be your, your your safety net. As things change, as AI comes, as competitors come that community’s gonna be that barrier between, you know, a person leaving and a person staying often. Mm-Hmm.
RV (29:11):
PF (29:59):
Yeah, I mean, we’re already preparing for it by doing what I just said, creating community, connecting people together. Like you said, just even small human interactions are gonna be that much more special, the more automated everything else becomes. Where I think a lot of us are maybe overlooking is with eventually where AI is gonna go as far as content creation. Like there’s gonna be videos that are created by AI that you wouldn’t even know are created by ai, right? We’re already seeing a lot of that and samples and, and snippets of that, taking a mid journey photo, putting it into another tool, mind runner, I don’t know. And then actually having it animate that thing. And, you know, you can use different tools to automate voices now. Those kinds of things. People aren’t going to trust content as much as they once did.
PF (30:51):
Even if your name’s on it. So how do we get people to trust us? It’s to make a real connection. To have a human-to-human interaction in some way, shape, or form. Alive I think is gonna be really important as well because of that. Because that’s something that is a lot harder to mimic or fake. And that’s not to say it’s never gonna happen, but when a person has a question and, and you have a genuine answer that’s heartfelt, it goes a very long way. And a a lot of us are trying to automate as much as we can, and I think we’re maybe over looking or even just forgetting about how important some human interaction is. Not everything has to be automated, right? And so keep that human touch as much as you can. Obviously you can’t reach out to every single subscriber and have a 30 minute conversation with them, but even with just a few, you’re able to stay more in tune with who your audience is in whole.
PF (31:48):
And hopefully again, just be more human. I mean, I think that’s the advice moving forward, is just be more human. And that, that, that is around caring. That’s like, as Gary Vaynerchuk always talks about, like just give it f right? And human as far as bringing story and emotion. A lot of people now that chat, g p t has been around for a while are starting to notice that it’s maybe a little bit too sophisticated, it’s a little bit too formal in a lot of its answers. And people are able to now understand that, well, that’s not from this actual person. It’s actually from a, a bot or a, a chatbot instead. So bring humanness into it. And I think the last thing I’ll say is, is also be vulnerable. And I think this is advice that always makes sense, but even more now with how perfect everything is becoming with AI and all, all these tools. I think sharing mistake or being vulnerable or, or showing maybe the, the scuff marks or the scabs that you have, not literally, but figuratively can do a lot for, again, that theme of just being more human.
RV (33:00):
Yeah, I love that. I love that. It’s making me think too that like, you know, what AI can’t really do is tell a story like of its own experience of something that it’s been the emotion it’s lived through, and maybe it’ll reach a point where it can emulate some of that, but like, it’d be pretty tough to do some of that. Yeah, I so I love that. I have one more question for you, but before we do that Sure. Where do you want people to go, pat, to like, ah, thank you, connect up with you and, and you know, if, if somehow they’ve not heard of smart passive income yet you know, obviously you’ve got your podcast, but like where would you, where would you direct people?
PF (33:41):
Yeah, thank you Roy. I appreciate it. And, and thank you all for listening. The one spot I’d recommend is perhaps our email list. It’s free, it’s called Unstuck. If you go to smart passive income.com/unstuck you can subscribe and you get a five minute read every single week to your inbox about a story. I either try to make you laugh or, or, or, or something. But it always comes with a lesson of getting unstuck in some way, shape, or form. A lot of us are stuck or, or will get stuck. And hopefully these stories can, can help you get a boost of energy or information or, or inspiration to, to get unstuck. So get [email protected] slash unstuck.
RV (34:18):
Love it. We’ll link to it in the show notes, obviously.
PF (34:20):
Thanks brother.
RV (34:21):
What what’s next on Pat Flynn’s Horizon? What’s the, your personal, when you think ahead, your personal goals and what you’re like, what has your attention and focus is, is it this YouTube thing or is there other things you’re seeing?
PF (34:35):
I mean the YouTube thing is definitely I’m having a lot of fun with it. I get to be a 40 year old man playing with cardboard, with cartoons on it,
PF (35:19):
I’ve been fishing a lot and it’s been a really nice break and a, a a way for me to get outdoors and put the devices and computer and the phone down and just kind of like, be in nature and, and meditate, if you will, and, and get focused. And I’ve been really falling in love with fishing again. I used to fish a lot with my dad when I was a kid, kid. And, and to do that and now do that with my son and my family as well, it’s been really great and, and, and really more needed than I thought, you know, when I started doing it. But of course, me being me, I’m like, oh, I should start a YouTube channel about this. And I’m trying really hard not to. But yeah, having, having a hobby and having something away from all the business stuff is, is key.
PF (35:58):
It gives me time to breathe and meditate and, and come back with more energy on, on Monday, on those, on those workdays. So that’s, that’s kind of what I’m gonna be focusing on. I will actually be competing in some tournaments next year for fishing and, and just kind of making sure to always have some space for me to do some stuff that I enjoy outside of business. ’cause I do enjoy it. But I’ve, I’ve gotten to the edge of, of burnout before and I’ve seen what it’s done to some of my friends and, and I don’t wanna have that happen to me, especially at this age where, you know, I gotta be there for my family and, and such.
RV (36:30):
Yeah. I love that brother. Well, I think probably the theme of this that will stick with me is just be more human. I mean, be more human. It’s phishing. Reaching out to your email subscribers is like creating those connections. Doing the live events community is just like probably the, the theme from today of, of just as it goes. More ai, more artificial, more automated gives, you know, hopefully a chance to be, to be more human. So thanks for being a great human man and for giving so much value to so many people for so long. And we’re cheering for you and we believe in you. And we’re just, we’re grateful for being here, for you being here. And we wish y’all the best, pat. Thank
PF (37:08):
You brother. Thanks everybody. Appreciate you.
Ep 428: Podcasting- Behind the Scenes Edition with Carli Van Heerden
AJV (00:00):
Hey, hey everybody, and welcome to another episode of the influential Personal brand, AJ Vaden here. And today is super awesome and exciting because we’re gonna talk about podcasting on the podcast. One of the things I was just sharing with our awesome guest, Carly who I’ll introduce in just a second, is there are probably within our community the, probably one of the most consistent requests that we’ve been getting here lately is how do you know when you should do a podcast? Or, Hey, I’ve been thinking about doing a podcast. How do I get started? Or, Hey, I have a podcast and now it’s taking off, but it’s a lot of work for me to keep up with. Or, Hey, I have this podcast and it’s not taking off
AJV (00:54):
We edit podcasts who we have used for the, since the beginning of this podcast, but this is our second podcast with We Edit podcast. We actually use them in our former podcast, but I don’t know, Carly might know more than me how many episodes you guys have produced for us thus far. But we are five, five years and some change in well over a hundred episodes. And so I just thought what a great way to both highlight what we’ve been able to do through the lens of podcasting. And it’s been such a gift for us. But also talk about it with the person who’s actually helping us behind the scenes bring this to life and make this a reality. So if you’re someone who is a podcaster who wants to be a podcaster or who just likes listening to podcasts, this is a great episode for you today.
AJV (01:46):
So stick around if you want to learn about the world of podcasting and how to make it work for you. Now let me introduce you to Carly, who is the founder and c e o of We Edit podcast. We were just talking about this. She’s also a full-time mama which I personally relate to and I love that. But we edit Podcast is a full service podcast production agency. You guys have been around since 2015. I’m positively sure we’ve been using you since you started in business
CVH (02:34):
Oh, thanks aj. It’s such a pleasure to be here and I’m excited for this conversation. ’cause You know, if I’m not doing something about podcasting, then what am I doing?
AJV (02:44):
I’m gonna, I love, I love this conversation too because, you know, right before I hit record I had said, Hey, I’d really love for you to tell everyone, like, how’d you get into this? Why did you get into this? Because I mean, I know podcasts are wickedly important today in terms of just, I mean, I think it’s more than 51% of Americans say that they listen to a podcast almost on a daily basis. But when you started this in 2015, I don’t imagine that was the case. I know it’s grown exponentially since then. So why did you get into this?
CVH (03:18):
My gosh. So I feel like we should backtrack in time for this one. It’s honestly such a, such a memory lane thing, but you know, I had been freshly graduated on university with my Bachelor’s of Commerce in my pocket. Here I go. I had actually moved across to South Africa to plan a wedding. And then after that all happened, we decided to do an impromptu travel through Southeast Asia for our honeymoon slash I don’t really know what we’re up to, just traveling around. And my husband had launched his podcast that year prior to that. And so he was spending so much time, obviously interviewing guests, going through the process and then sitting there editing his, his show. And I’m like, man, we could be doing something else about right about now. Like, is there so that he somebody that can help you with and his, and he’s like, you know, there’s probably some freelancers doing editing work and all this stuff that he, oh, some people that he know, but there, there’s not really like a company that you can just submit click and wait for the whole thing to happen. And I was like, Hey, here’s an idea. You know, why don’t we do something like that? Why don’t we just step into this world of helping people with their podcasts? And voila, there it was. We had a podcast was Born
AJV (04:37):
You know what the, I love stories like that because it starts with your own need. Exactly. It’s like, if I can solve this, you know, need for myself solve this problem for myself, then surely I can solve it for someone else. And I love it when stories start like that because it was, it’s organic and it’s like, we got a problem, let’s fix it and then let’s help other people fix it too.
CVH (04:58):
Exactly. That’s how it goes.
AJV (05:00):
And now eight years in oh
CVH (05:03):
My gosh, it’s grown to something I couldn’t even have imagined back then, right?
AJV (05:08):
I mean, I mean, it’s pretty awesome and I, and I just know that you guys are such a great partner for us and you guys do such a great job. And so I’m really excited to hear some of your thoughts behind the scenes of podcasting, right? Because that most people listen to the finished product, right? Like everyone listening right now, you’re getting, you’re gonna be listening to the finished product, but Carly and I are here sitting at the beginning of the product and there’s this whole middle part that nobody sees between this raw recording and then what actually gets published. And so I would love to talk about all the things that happen in between that people don’t realize and then very quickly get overwhelmed with. And this passion idea they had all of a sudden turns into a really big burden. So here’s my first question for you,
CVH (06:11):
So a lot of times, like I even think to back to myself, back then, I had no knowledge about editing a podcast. Like what did I know about any of that technical stuff? It’s quite technical if you wanna go into it. I mean, there’s a lot of options to do raw podcasts and just put out whatever you record. But if you want that finished, polished look and sound, then you’re gonna have to invest in knowing what it takes to edit. And so people just get thrown off of that and they’re like, oh, I don’t even know how to do that, so I’m not even gonna get started. I mean, nevermind this latest age of video podcasting. How do I even set up a camera that isn’t a FaceTime or a, you know, this and that? What do I plug in which headphones? Which this. So you can come become very overwhelmed initially with that, that initial start. You know, like, where do I even start? Because sometimes like some people think, oh, it’s gonna be about, I don’t know what to talk about. No, that’s not true. A lot of people have their why, they know what they’re gonna say. It’s just like, now how do I connect that to essentially a podcast, you know, in the end. Mm-Hmm.
AJV (07:17):
CVH (07:39):
So what I suggest is go into your listener’s shoes, what do they want to hear? Do they want to hear you like
CVH (08:34):
So you can find that information so easily and it, the people go through it, they step by step, like walk you through each microphone option, each headphone option, the recording software that you can use. You know, everything that you can find out is out there. So you can do some research, find out what works for your budget, what works for your commitment and time and everything, and what kind of quality do you want. Do you want something that’s a live show and you’re sitting with somebody in a room chatting? Sure. Go for that option and just kind of find out what is, what is it that you wanna give your listeners and then go from there.
AJV (09:10):
Hmm. I love that because it really is so varied in terms of how advanced and you know, how you know all in show production value. Do you wanna go versus, Hey, I’m, I’m just getting started. I, I hope that my parents listen I don’t know about anybody else, right? There’s a lot of in between there. Do you have a favorite microphone that you’re like, man, this is just a go-to.
CVH (09:35):
I’m loving this one
AJV (09:36):
Yeah. Which one is that? This is
CVH (09:38):
The sure. SMM seven B, you get the
AJV (09:42):
Sure M S seven B,
CVH (09:44):
SMM seven B
AJV (09:45):
S
CVH (09:47):
You get a smaller one too. That’s a, a lower price point, which is also the sure one, which is great. But there’s a ton of new ones always coming out right now. Like you can, I mean you can even use your headphones from your AirPods or whatever you want to if you aren’t ready to commit to something. But honestly, like the quality just makes a huge difference. And then when you do choose something like an editor or someone who can help produce your podcast, it’s much easier on their side too. ’cause They can’t out of thin air create great quality audio, but they can work with your audio when it’s got a base level standard that is good and make it polished. Right. So yeah, this one is great.
AJV (10:29):
Oh yeah, I think it’s, that’s important because I think one of the initial tips that we got when we first started our podcast and our first podcast, I don’t even know when we started. It was a long time ago, maybe 2008, nine, 10, I don’t know. It was a long time ago. And we did not invest into good equipment for a long time until finally someone said to us, you know, we really love the content, but it’s so miserable to listen to. And I was like, what is, are you saying my voice is miserable? And they were like, no. Like it, the, the audio goes up and down and half the time it sounds like you’re in an echo chamber. And it wasn’t until that we actually sat down, which is pro tip number one, listen to your own podcast. We sat down and listened and we’re like, oh my gosh, this is what people have been listening to. This is horrible. And so it’s like, if you haven’t listened to your own podcast, go listen to your own podcast and you’ll know in a gif what you need to make quick adjustments for. And 95% of the time I bet it’s audio. I bet it’s audio. And if you have good audio to your point, Carly, it’s easier for the editors behind the scenes to make it even better.
CVH (11:43):
Exactly. Just how you said it right there,
AJV (11:46):
Yeah. Well, and it’s true. It’s like I think about the best podcast that I listen to and it sounds, sounds like it’s a high production show even though I know it’s them in their home office with a microphone, right? But it sounds so good and it’s so easy to listen to and that, you know, regardless of how many people are, you know, watching the audio or the video versions, most people are still listening to the audio most of the time. And so really ramping up on the audio production makes a big difference. So, okay, here’s my next question ’cause I have a long list. I know I sent you
CVH (12:37):
What’s interesting, I was chatting to someone the other day about their process of starting their podcast and they said, you know what? I actually sat down and decided what is gonna be, what is my content strategy basically for my podcast? And you decide on the form, is it gonna be interview style? Are you gonna do a solo podcast? Are you gonna do live events? You know, so when you hone on that side of things, then you can kind of get a direction, okay, so if I’m gonna do guests now I have to email all these guests, find somebody to come on my show, book it all in. So it’s like a, it’s a whole process and you have to plan it on calendars not only yours, right? Because they’re not gonna be like, oh, I’m gonna start interviewing today. Oh sure I’m available. No, they’re booking out too.
CVH (13:21):
So you have to put that all into your planning. And then the interesting thing about that is like trying to find out when you’re gonna launch, which episode is it gonna coincide with that guest’s book launch or something to help them out? How can you make it more inviting for them to say, Hey, yes, that sounds like a great time for me to come on. But that’s the thing. Lot of us have our why we are already doing it in our business. Like for me, I’m already working in the podcast industry, so for me launching a podcast, I know what my why is I wanna teach podcasters or help them or give them tools. Okay, great, that’s what I’ve got, but how am I gonna convey that? What am I gonna do to get my message across in the most effective way? Mm-Hmm.
CVH (14:03):
So I would say you just have to put that type of planning into your content to begin with before you, you know, go off like, you know, on a whim. Like, I’m just gonna try out anything. That’s not to say you can’t experiment with your podcast format. Sure, be adaptable, be open to change, but have some kind of plan so that when you’re starting out, even if you start with step one, your step three might change, but hey, you had a step three to begin with so you have somewhere to aim to
AJV (14:34):
Yeah, I think that’s really a wise sage advice because otherwise we’re just stuck in, you know, analysis paralysis. It’s like, oh, there’s all these different options. What should I do? And it’s like, no, just pick one. You can change it later, but just pick one. Since you listen to, or at least your team listens to a ton of these as you’re editing, do you see that there is a very common format that most people are still doing today?
CVH (15:02):
Yeah, I mean it depends on how often they’re publishing their episodes. So if they’re doing like a few a week, then there’s quite a variety in there. Like a sample for you guys, you have the interview and then you have your recap. So that makes for great content for you to put out. But if you’re not somebody who’s doing a recap or multiple episodes in a week, then you kind of have one format. You’re sticking to it, it’s working for you and that’s the way that you go. But yeah, people love guest interviews ’cause it’s bringing the experts on. It’s getting down to the nitty gritty of your topic at hand. And it helps to create variety because a lot of people are like, oh my gosh, I can’t think about committing two a hundred episodes. What am I gonna talk about for a hundred episodes about the same topic? Voila, guests enter. And guess that is how you do it because every guest that you bring on expert that you bring on, or even like everyday human in the street that you bring on about this topic, we’ll have a unique point of view and then you can find a way to create variety for your content.
AJV (16:12):
Yeah. Like even to that. And I’m glad, I’m actually really glad you brought that up because we decided in the very beginning that we were gonna do our full interview episodes and then we would do like our version of like a Cliff Notes episode that was like much shorter. But I will tell you consistently, and we track this pretty diligently, and this potentially is maybe just a tiniest bit of an exaggeration, but I bet we still get 10 times the downloads on our interview format than we do on our solo recaps. So then we’ve had this debate internally, well then why are we still doing them? And
AJV (16:57):
So we may not be getting a ton of downloads on the recap episodes, but it’s giving us a whole new set of well produced video and audio content that we can then repurpose for blog and social media content. And it’s original and it’s now you have this amazing one hour interview that you can recap into a 10 to 15 minute recap where you’re not having to come up with all due content topics all the time that you’re pulling from these expert interviews. And it’s allowing us to take our spin, our take on it. And it’s a way of not necessarily are we expecting to grow the podcast with these recaps at this point. It’s pretty much proven we’re not going to be doing that. But it has been an amazing tool to give us fresh, new ideas and takes and twists on things to have fresh content that we can then repurpose for blogs, vlogs, social media and other things.
AJV (17:56):
And so I would just second, I was curious, it’s at least on our show anyway, the solo episodes so far underperform compared to the interview format. And I would even say our video show, our YouTube show version versus just the normal audio doesn’t even compare it’s audio downloads. 10 x and interview format. That’s the by far the runaway winner and our tiny little micro example. So it back to that’s like people love the conversation format as you’re beginning into those stages. Now I also have this question and this is totally your opinion and you don’t need any facts behind it. But since this is your world and it has been your world for a really long time, I would love to know what do you think makes a great podcast?
CVH (18:52):
Oh my gosh. Well, I know what the result is. Like if the result is an engaged, I’m not even gonna say audience, but community around your podcast that is like the result
CVH (19:55):
So for me, when I listen my personal podcast, things that I find the most valuable and the most amazing podcast is like, there’s something that really resonates with me on a personal front. Like whether it’s to do with your mom’s, like the way that your mom taught you how to do this and that, and somebody mentions it about their mom or something that it’s like, oh my gosh. Or whether it’s like with my kids or something to do with like, everyday life or like a, a personal failure in my business or something that I can totally relate to on a raw like vulnerable level. It’s like, that’s gold. ’cause Not a lot of people are open to being vulnerable on podcasts because you wanna be like super mm-hmm.
AJV (20:43):
Yeah. And I think that’s, it’s probably true across the board at some level because if you really think about it, it’s like we’re not in, most people are not in this anymore just for the information. You can get information in a multitude of ways. I mean, I mean, think about all the ways it’s like, there are blogs out of the wazoo. There’s, I don’t even know how many podcasts, but a lot, there’s YouTube shows now, there’s TikTok, there’s Instagram, there’s whatever this new one is. Threads can’t even keep up
CVH (21:37):
Yeah, yeah, totally. That and the thing is like, it could be, it could be vulnerability too, but it could be comedy like some of the comedy podcasts out there. Like, they become so, like they draw me in. ’cause Sometimes I’m just like, man, I need a good laugh. And obviously people have a habit of scrolling social media for those things, me included, right? Because you’re watching all these funny reels and things. But if you’ve listened to comedy or like comedians on podcasts, it is hilarious. And it just takes you right out of where you are into like their world of comedy. And it’s just, you could be watching a show if you close your eyes, you know, that’s where you can imagine you are. So yeah, you’re right. It just connecting on that level
AJV (22:21):
Yeah. So why, why do you think podcasts have taken off the way that they have?
CVH (22:28):
Oh my gosh. Because I, like, honestly, podcasts has been around so long, and to answer your question about how many podcasts the latest was, there’s almost 5 million out there. And in this last week, there’s like 200,000 new episodes that were launched and oh yeah, the stats are insane. But don’t let that scare you off
AJV (23:49):
Yeah, I love that. And I tell people all the time that there’s this hidden benefit, this hidden perk of getting to be the host of a podcast, which is Free Education
CVH (25:00):
Basis? Oh my gosh. On a weekly, oh, there are hundreds of, of episodes that we go through. I mean, from the start it’s been like 3,500 plus, you know, and we’ve worked with so many different kinds of podcasters, from individual ones to big companies, to even people who are white labeling our service. So I mean, then those people just push the episodes through because it’s all of their clients that coming our way too. But yeah, I mean, I cannot tell you how many I’ve listened to and how many show notes I’ve written Uhhuh
AJV (25:55):
Yeah. So knowing that I imagine through the years and through these thousands of podcasts that you’ve edited that there are a, a couple of things that you see people do consistently well and some probably some things that you see people consistently not do so well. So if you could share with us what are some tips of the trade to ensure that you have a great episode and then what are some of those avoidable mistakes that we should be on the lookout for? So
CVH (26:29):
One of my main things is if you are gonna start a podcast, be a host, learn how to be a host. And that means listening. So learn how to listen. ’cause You, it’s great if you are chiming in when the conversation happens. But I’ve, I’ve had a lot of people who as the host, they’re interrupting their guest the whole time. So then on our audio side of things, that’s jumping into their audio, sometimes it goes over what your guest is trying to say. I know from my transcriptionist, they always tell me it’s in Anau audible. I can’t hear what they’re saying ’cause somebody’s interrupted them. So find a way to be a host and, and learn how to be a host with from listening perspective. Number one, from the second thing, if you have something that comes to mind, write it down. Have your little notepad and your pen and write something down if you think about it.
CVH (27:21):
And when your guest is done saying their thought, then you bring it up. Because if you interrupt them halfway through, your listener might not have been thinking the same thought that you are thinking about. So you then you’re interrupting the listener as well as your guest. So instead find a way to make it cohesive in that way. And then the third way I say is listen to other hosts. Find people that you think are, man, they ask such incredible questions or Wow, I just love how they transitioned from that answer to their feedback and in seamlessly into a question like, how are they doing this? You know? And some of the most like amazing g hosts like that are actually speakers, right? They’re, they’re speakers on stages, so they know these things. They ha just have a way of phrasing things or reflecting it back to their guest and that the listener learns even more just from you being such a great host. So honestly, my main things are those like find a way to be a great host,
AJV (28:21):
I, you know, that’s so interesting to hear. ’cause I think a lot of people say, make sure you’re a good listener, but in context of this particular thing, you also have to think about, yeah, you need to be a good listener. ’cause If you’re cutting off your guests or talking over them or switching, it makes it really hard for the production component of this to turn out well, or the show notes feel discombobulated ’cause you were bouncing around. I had never thought about it that way. And so following that whole concept of being a great listener, not interrupting, writing it down actually helps you have a better produced show. Not just a better interview experience, but also, I, I didn’t even think about how complicated that would be if you’re like, oh, hold that thought. You just said something and then you’re like, okay, now continue. Right?
CVH (29:24):
Yeah, exactly. And it’s a lot, I mean, sometimes it is a conversation, like if you have two hosts, obviously you’re gonna banter back and forth. It’s laughter. It’s like, not shouting, but some people are like, ah, my gosh. You know, yelling over each other. And that’s, that’s fun because that’s not really, you know, that’s not interrupting somebody who’s trying to communicate with your listeners. It’s, yeah, it’s a banter and you expect it. That’s part of the show. So, but that’s part of knowing who you are as a host too, right? If that is what your format is, go for it. If not, hang back, listen and observe and think these things through. But yeah,
AJV (30:02):
Those things, I think a lot of it comes back to listen to your own show.
CVH (30:06):
Hey, you said it first.
AJV (30:08):
Yeah, listen to your own show. You’ll pr probably be your own worst critic. You would be the hardest coach on yourself, but listen to your own show. That’s a really important part of, you know, I think about it as a speaker, you know, we are like, one of the biggest things that we always did is like we forced ourselves to watch our footage. We would watch our footage and then we would watch it on rewind. We would watch it on fast forward. We would listen to it while not watching it, and then we would watch it on mute. And so it’s like we’re looking for all these different things. But we can do the same thing with our own show. It’s like you need to be a participant of the show. You need to know what it’s like to be the listener in order to be a really good host. And then I loved your comment too of like, what are the other hosts out there that you love? It’s like, man, I love the way that they’re a good host and the way they transition and that comes from studying your craft, is you gotta find other people that you think are doing a phenomenal job and picking up those tips. And so here’s my question. Who is some of your favorite hosts? Who would you say that you just think are crashing it in the podcast field?
CVH (31:15):
Oh my gosh. The last one that I was started, like just recently listening to was Natalie, Natalie Frank on the independent business podcast. She’s just, I don’t know, she just hits it. It sounds like she doesn’t skip a beat when she is replying to her guest. She’s converting it into a question. And I’m just like burning through those episodes, preparing for my own podcast, which has just been so inspiring. But yeah. And then some of the other ones, oh, I just interviewed Ashley Menzies, Baba Babatunde, and her voice is so calm and like she just really gets you centered and like, just relax. And I’m like, okay, yeah, that’s a good quality of a host because you need to, you know, don’t sound nervous and uptight about things. You need to be calm and collective
CVH (32:07):
So yeah, I’m just like soaking up everybody. Like I’m listening to the guests that they have on. Sure. But I’m out there to study the host to really get into like, in their shoes, like how are they doing this? Like what are their, what are their methods? And just listening to everybody. And obviously you guys, your conversations are so natural and you just like, yeah, I’m just like before I know it, I forgot that I was listening because I wanted to see your style. I’m like listening ’cause I’m drawn into the conversation, people into the conversation. Oh yeah. So I’m learning a lot.
AJV (32:43):
I love that. And you know, it’s, I think it comes back to, I think often, not just in the podcast world, in business, we forget to study, just to study. We forget that we gotta hone in in our craft. We get such in the rhythm of doing our thing that it’s like, oh yeah there’s probably ways we can improve. And two best ways you can do that are listen to yourself and listen to others. That is such a good refreshing reminder for me today of like, I can’t remember the last time I listened to one of my own episodes,
CVH (33:55):
Podcast? So this is actually something that I was struggling with personally is that whole thing of imposter syndrome. Like what makes me qualified to be here? And you might ask that as a newbie podcaster, you know, somebody who’s starting out but think is all of us have something to offer? The main thing is you have to figure out what it is, package it, and then put it out there. And instead of try getting trapped in this, why, why am I here? Am I allowed to be here? Turn your mindset and become the same thing I’ve been harping on in this episode is become a student. Like have a student mindset. If you’re just there learning, if you’re open about how you’re learning in this process, no one’s going to judge you. Like, I mean, no one’s gonna judge you anyways, but you yourself won’t judge yourself either because you’re like, I’m not imposing anybody. I’m here to learn. I’m doing this. You know, just adopting that student
Speaker 3 (34:51):
Mindset, you, your
CVH (34:55):
Journey as a podcaster, as a business owner, as anybody building a personal brand. It’s just finding a way to get through that obstacle, you know, packaging your who you are and what you have to offer. And then telling people, this is how I’ve learned to do it on my journey. And people will be so glad you did it.
AJV (35:15):
Hmm. You just reminded me of this quote I saw here recently and it said be you, there’s no one else like you, so why be anyone else? And it’s, it’s such a thing as we forget our own power, our own uniqueness. When we get stuck in that imposter syndrome state and you forget, it’s like, oh yeah. Like I, I am worth being here and what I have to say is going to help someone else. And it’s focusing on who you can help versus who you can’t. ’cause You’re not meant to help everyone and it’s just focusing on, there’s a group of people for you. Focus on them. Don’t worry about the people who aren’t for you. That’s not who you’re doing it for. You’re doing it for the people who need it.
CVH (36:02):
Exactly. And I just to add to that, like if you’re going out there to create a podcast, that’s for everyone. That’s probably not the right direction for you because not everyone is going to love what you put out there. But if there’s even one or two people that are touched by whatever you’re doing, how you’re helping them, and they, like I’ve heard so many people say, you know, I’ve got this feedback from this listener and somebody who said, oh, I helped them out here. And that’s just small things and it’s can like boost you into continuing to do what you wanna do and getting your podcast and your message out there and it’s just like, yeah, go for that.
AJV (36:39):
Mm. That’s such a good reminder. So before we go Carly, tell people what exactly you guys do at We Edit podcast.
CVH (36:48):
Oh my gosh. So we have involved for everything from edit, editing, audio for your podcast, video editing for your video, podcast transcription show notes. We even have a launch package for people who want some handholding on the launch podcast launch steps and you know, the whole process. So everything is so clearly laid out on our website. If you wanna find out anything about any services you could, we’re happy to hop on calls with you, making everything as easy as possible. And obviously our main thing is people love us because of our fast turnaround and great quality
AJV (37:47):
Well, I would second what you just said, and I can’t say this about every vendor we’ve ever worked with, but I can say it about you guys, that’s all true. It’s you know, we just submitted, I don’t know, 18 hours of content to your team to edit uhhuh. And I think like by yesterday you already had like the first three episodes done since Monday. It’s like you guys are crushing it. And on top of that you know, we’ve been monthly clients for over five years and not only are you guys reliable and you do good work and you fast, you hit your deadlines, but you’re also super affordable. And you didn’t mention that I think you’re super affordable for what you guys do. So they’re one of our preferred vendors. Highly recommend them. We’ve used them for years on multiple podcasts for multiple projects.
AJV (38:36):
You guys do an awesome job and if you guys wanna check them out I will put a link in our show notes so you can go learn about all of their services and all that they do. And Carly, thank you so much for being on the show. This was insightful and helpful and it’s so good to get a behind the scenes look at someone who is literally listened to, edited and produced thousands of episodes. So thank you so much. For everyone else, thanks for tuning in. Stick around for the recap that apparently no one else downloads, but maybe you’ll
CVH (39:08):
I listen to them.
AJV (39:14):
They’re awesome. Go check it out, be the first and we’ll catch you next time on the influential personal brand. Bye guys.
CVH (39:22):
Bye. Thanks.
Ep 426: Having a Miracle Mentality with Tim Storey
RV (00:02):
Well, you’re about to meet someone that I truly admire. His name is Tim Story. I admire him for several reasons. Uh, first of all, he’s the bestselling author of several books, most recently, the Miracle Mentality that was published by Harper Collins. Um, but Tim is super influential behind the scenes with lots of the world’s, uh, famous people, high profile people. Um, now he’s been featured as a public guest on shows, you know, like Oprah Winfrey and interviewed by Steve Harvey in the Today Show in Good Morning America. He’s been featured in People Magazine. He’s also worked behind the scenes with people in their private lives. This is people like Charlie Sheen and Kanye West, and, uh, Charlton Hesston and Robert Downey, Jr. Jr. Like, um, this man is known for his heart and for his love and for his passion and his message. Um, and he also has become one of the biggest personal brands in the world.
RV (00:58):
He’s got millions of followers online. Uh, he speaks at several of the biggest events. He works with lots of the biggest companies in the world, and he’s an amazing humanitarian. He does all this humanitarian work, donates his books to refugees, um, and is just a really wonderful guy. And we’re actually just meeting for the first time. But he also is very, uh, you know, like me, he takes his faith as a very serious part of his life, uh, as a believer in God, thus the miracle mentality, which is why we had to have him here today. Tim story, welcome to the Influential Personal Brand podcast.
TS (01:35):
What a privilege, and thank you for that nice introduction,
RV (01:39):
TS (02:10):
As you know, a miracle is something extraordinary uncommon, not normal and not natural. And then the mentality, as you know, as well, is a state of mind. It’s a perspective, and it’s been set for probably a hundred years that your mindset is yours to set your mindset’s, yours to set. So growing up in Compton, California, we had seven people in a two bedroom apartment. Cramped. Crowded, okay. But one of the things that my mother had was a miracle mentality. Hmm. She always used to tell us things like this, like, we may be lower income, but we’re not lower class.
RV (02:51):
Amen. And
TS (02:52):
This is only temporary and we’re on our way somewhere. So she really created hope and expectation, even though we were in a cramped and crowded environment. So, as I got older and I got into church, into faith, I started hearing all these great stories about David and Goliath and Abraham having a, a baby with his wife, Sarah. And they were both very, very old. And it just began to build my faith and build my mentality into this miracle mentality. And I took it into deep, deep research and decided to write a book about it, and it’s working.
RV (03:31):
Mm-hmm.
TS (04:13):
Okay. So I think it’s, I think it’s two things, is that I believe that number one, the miracle mentality is innate. I believe that we’re we’re made in the image and likeness of God. And so inside of us, we believe in the miracle mentality. And I, and I know this for a fact ’cause I’ve been to 78 countries of the world.
RV (04:34):
Wow.
TS (04:35):
When I go to third world countries and I talk to little kids in Soweto, South Africa, and I say, what do you wanna be when you get older? And they’re five or six, they’ll say things like LeBron James or a little girl will say Beyonce. Mm-hmm. They never talk about they want to be something that’s less. They talk about miracle mentality, little girls. They may wanna have a party that includes unicorns, little boys. They wanna play with Superman, spider-Man, Ironman. They never wanna play with something ordinary. So I think number one, it’s innate. Secondly, it’s learned. I think the main reason that people lose the miracle mentality, Rory, is because of disappointment. Mm-hmm. They got disappointed. So they believed for something, they expected something, and it did not happen the way they thought it would. And the disappointment started to break down the miracle mentality.
RV (05:34):
So that’s a good question. Right. So how do you handle that? Right? I mean, I think that’s what, I think that’s what, when people hear about prayer, you know, they struggle with it. And, and you know, of course, like scripture and ancient scripture says like, you know, if you, you believe in me, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given to you. But then you pray for, you know, like I think of my wife aj. So my wife, who’s also my business partner, and she’s the c e o of brand builders group. You know, her mom got cancer when she was 15, and her mom prayed fervently, fervently for healing, had prayer chains, and yet her mom died. Right. Um, she, she lived longer than they expected, quite a lot longer, uh, like a year longer. Um, but it was, you know, that’s, that can be devastating to people’s faith. So how do you reconcile that? Right? How do you reconcile believing for the miracle, having the miracle mentality, but when the miracle doesn’t show up, this gap between those is disappointment.
TS (06:39):
Yes.
RV (06:40):
What’s the response there?
TS (06:41):
That’s a great question and something that a lot of people are that are watching right now, you feel, ’cause we’ve all been through different disappointments with belief, and then it didn’t happen. So I think that life is not black and white, that it’s most times gray. It’s like in the middle, like, why do bad things happen to good people? Or why do some people say they got healed to cancer and then someone else did not? So it’s, it, it’s not, it’s not black, it’s not white. It’s many times gray. But here’s what I believe. I think that even though the miracle did not happen the way we wanted it to, I think in the, in the form of healing, healing is a process. Some people are healed instantly, some are healed gradually. And in the Christian faith, we believe some people don’t get healed till they go to heaven, where there’s no more sickness, more tears, no more sorrow.
TS (07:42):
So, you know, we want the miracle on earth, but the, the miracle of everlasting life is still a miracle. But I, believe me, I want the miracle on earth. Hmm. So I would say to somebody as a spiritual leader and advisor, that that is frustrating, that is disappointing. But we still have to believe in miracles and believe that God is still able. And in the cases where it does not happen the way we want it to, we kind of just put that in a file that we say, at this point in my life, I don’t understand, but I still believe it’s almost like following your parents. There’s times that they gave you, um, guidelines or guidance or direction, and you didn’t understand it, but maybe at times you still followed, even though you didn’t completely understand. But I, I go through this thing where I say, you have to learn to believe in miracles and expect miracles and expectation is a very difficult thing for people. Again, because of the disappointment.
RV (08:59):
Yeah. So when you, when you say expectation Yes. What, what, what do you mean by that? And, and I do think the parallel, I, it helps me a lot. I, I feel like I’ve learned more about my faith walk than ever before by having children, because I understand like, sometimes they, they ask me for candy, sometimes I give it to ’em, sometimes I don’t. Sometimes it’s the right thing, and sometimes it would be damaging to them even though they don’t realize it. Right. Sometimes they want to tip back in their chair and they think that’s fun. But I I, I say, Hey, no, we’re not gonna do that because I’ve got, I’ve got a perspective that they don’t have. I’ve got a foresight that, that they don’t have. Yeah. And, and then, but then, you know, how do you continue to have that expectation where you ask, and maybe you’re let down and maybe that happens again and again. Or like you pursue your whole life pursuing a dream, and then you don’t get it. Right. You don’t get to the, you don’t get drafted in the M B A, you don’t get the call from the record label. How do we keep expecting then?
TS (09:59):
So I think the expectation has to be based on something. Okay. Okay. And so, like for instance, I was at a friend’s house and, um, I had forgotten something and he said, let’s just order it on Amazon Prime, then it will come the next day,
TS (11:11):
And so, uh, a fantasy is something that does not have substance to it. And so sometimes people are chasing fantasies and they think that’s faith. But I think that it has to be based on something, whether it’s a promise that God gave you or a scripture that God gave you, or a knowing as, or as o Oprah Winfrey says, uh, aha moment where you have a download. And I think you’ve had that in your life where sometimes all you had was like a word from God, and you moved on that word from God and it worked. And so you, you based it on something you felt like you heard from God and you stepped out in faith.
RV (11:59):
How do you know, how do you hear the difference between God’s prompting Christ, what Christians would call probably the whole, the Holy Spirit? How do you know the difference between that and like a crazy idea or a fantasy or just you, you know, like how do you discern, which it’s like the voices inside my head, right? How do I discern which voice is the voice I should be listening to? Which voice is which voice is the one that guides me towards the miracle?
TS (12:33):
Yeah. Phenomenal question. So in the eighties, I wrote a book called Good Idea versus the God idea. Hmm. Good. Or is it God
RV (12:46):
Yeah.
TS (12:47):
And Good can be good, but God could be better. So there’s a scripture that says, trust in the Lord with all your heart. Do not lean on your own understanding, but in all your ways, acknowledge him and he shall direct your path. Okay, how so? I teach a very simple thing. We need to stop, we need to look and we need to listen. And then the Bible says, my sheep, they know my voice. Hmm. Now, when your wife calls you, even if she had a cold, you could recognize her voice. Is that correct?
RV (13:26):
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
TS (13:27):
If she coughed in the middle of the sentence, you’d go, that’s her
RV (13:32):
Yeah. Uhhuh
TS (13:33):
So the more you have a connection with somebody you can understand and know their voice with more clarity. Hmm. And the way I teach people is we have to stop, meaning we become human doings rather than human beings. We need to look to God and have a lion alignment with him. And then we need to listen. And that listen is that quiet, whether it’s meditation, whether it’s prayer, driving in your car, in the shower, in the ice bucket, uh, in the mornings, however you do things. But really that quiet time. Think about this in your own personal life. I bet there’s some times where you’ve got some really cool downloads by just stopping looking and then listening. Mm-hmm.
RV (14:26):
TS (15:08):
Add, I like to add something to that because I think that one thing I think that you’ll enjoy about my type of teaching is that, uh, I don’t think everything is like, just an absolute. And I feel that stop, look and listen, that’s part of it. But also in the Bible it says there’s wisdom in the multitude of counselors. Mm-hmm.
RV (16:02):
TS (16:09):
I think that, uh, Oprah Winfrey, who’s become a phenomenal friend, like we’re real friends, we were sitting in her backyard one time and she said, at what point did you know you were Tim Story? And I said, at 10. And she got very emotional. She said, about the same age for me. And she said, what did that look like? Because you have to understand, we were lower income. My mother worked at Windshield’s Donut Shop, my father died when I was 10, but he was just a guy who went to 10th grade and worked at Bethlehem Steel. And someday I would go to 70 countries, speak to 85,000 people by the time I was 28 and get a doctorate in World Religion, a master’s in therapy. I mean, who would’ve thought that when I was this lower income kid at 10? But man, I just knew, I knew that. I knew that I knew. And I think that most of you guys that are watching right now, if we asked you at what age did you know you were supposed to do something fantastic or that was supernatural, it was supposed to happen, you could probably give me an age. So at 10 years of age, there was a knowing I didn’t know how I was gonna get there, and I didn’t know exactly what it was, but I knew I was gonna have big impact. I really did.
RV (17:36):
Mm-hmm.
TS (18:28):
Yes. So I think Dennis Waitley said it close to the way I say it in the eighties. So I always like to cite people, but I talk about how we learn through education, conversation, and observation. Hmm. And one of the things I do with inner city kids is I take ’em to places that they’ve never been before. So if they live, like in a inner city in la, I might drive them to Beverly Hills and let them see Rodeo Drive, because that’s an observation of something bigger than themselves. Hmm. Or will take groups of kids to Disneyland because they’ve never seen Tomorrow land, frontier land. They’ve never seen anything like this. Right. And so I think that if you don’t know what you’re supposed to do through education of even watching documentaries through conversations like the one we’re having right now together, and through observation, it will stir up that thing that’s already been there. ’cause I believe it’s already doggone inside you. Mm-hmm.
RV (19:57):
Mm-hmm.
RV (20:42):
And then when we sold our company in 2018, we moved to that exact area. And it’s like, the awareness of it is a lot. And it’s, it’s, it’s almost like seeing it, you know, seeing somebody else do it, it makes it so much more real, so much more possible. Like the, the belief barriers that we set in our own minds, the, the limits that we set are exploded by by things you can go witness. I mean, I’ve never really thought about the power of just go and be in the environment, but like, I have that a lot nowadays. Like, you know, like Ed Millet, we were talking about him before seeing the response that his audience had during his book launch. Like blew my mind. Right. I had just never seen anything. And to be on the inside of like, what that looked like, it just raised my belief level by simply being an observer and just being around what was going on.
TS (21:34):
100%. And, um, there’s so much power in the site and as you know, biblically it says seeing those things that are not yet as though they are already. And so when you begin to project and you begin to see by faith, uh, but again, I think you saw your life before it started to manifest and, um, that we get these glimpses of, of what we should be doing. And part of it, yours was seeing a speaker, but then other things, seeing a house, seeing a neighborhood. And, uh, I’ve been fortunate enough to be, uh, mentored by a man named Quincy Jones for the last 36 years. And to be around Quincy Jones is pretty cool because he worked with anywhere from Frank Sinatra to Michael Jackson. And, uh, they just celebrated his 90th birthday the other day, the Hollywood Bowl. But, you know, in seeing what this man has done from coming from where he came from, has helped me to see that if he could do it, I could do it. If he could do it, I could do it. If he could do it, I could do it. So that’s very, very helpful.
RV (22:54):
Mm-hmm.
TS (23:34):
I think, I think I wanna say that, um, if someone does not have a faith background, I could see your point. ’cause I think that a lot of the representatives, um, of faith have not always brought like, clear messages by who they are, how they talk, how they do business. So I don’t blame anybody, but I would say again, that the miracle mentality is innate. ’cause even if you don’t have faith, I still believe you’re made in the image of God. And there’s something inside you that says different, better, more magical. And that’s my, my famous story about Walt Disney. He walks into an amusement park in the 1930s and he said, someday I’m gonna build my own amusement park, but mine’s gonna be different, better, and more magical. I’m trying to tell you, every one of you that are watching right now, at one point in your life, you thought different, better, and more magical. Hmm. Whether that’s because of faith, religion, or just what’s in you innately. But I would, I would say to you, step out in who you’re supposed to be different, better, and more magical. And then if possible, open yourself up to the supernatural realm because it’s pretty powerful.
RV (24:52):
Yeah. I think that’s, I think that’s really, really beautiful. And it, when you, when you, if you grasp hold and you do kind of take ancient scripture that says that you’re created in God’s image, it certainly is a lot of, there’s a lot of power there. Uh, you know, at your access. You know, if, if there’s,
TS (25:09):
There’s no doubt about it. And the more, the more I like to study, like, um, all these documentaries, like I was watching one on David Bowie. I mean, I, I watched ones that my inner city friends were like, would be like, why did you watch that one
RV (25:22):
TS (25:23):
Interested in human beings? And this dude had like a miracle mentality and he wasn’t into like religion or like Jesus Christ, but he just knew he was David Bowie. But I, I personally believe, again, ’cause he is made in the image of God and that side of him was thinking different, better, more magical. I mean, little kids, man, they just, they wanna rise.
RV (25:53):
So another another thing that I think is pretty amazing about you. There’s, there’s so, so much in, in your, your life story, but, uh, you’ve done stuff with the Dalai Lama and you, you get into a lot of conversations and a lot of circles where it’s like normally you wouldn’t like maybe have a pastor there having that conversation. Um, how have you balanced, you know, like when it comes to like building your personal brand and your public profile and making money from speaking and writing books and those things, how do you balance this strong conviction of your, your strong personal conviction of faith and a source of truth with a respect of other people who maybe don’t believe what you believe and how are you bold, but you know, kind of compassionate and like, you know, not hiding or, you know, not apologizing for what you believe, but you, you know, like, talk to me about that balance.
TS (26:56):
Yeah, I think that in the Bible that says that you are like an epistle read by men. Like, so if you’re walking around and you’re a Christian, that where you go, it’s like people are reading you. Another way of saying it is that you can walk around like a billboard. So a lot of my strength is not in what I say, but the spirit in which I walk in. So your buddy, my buddy Lewis house. Yeah.
RV (27:30):
Uh,
TS (27:30):
He did a documentary and Thank you Lewis for putting me in that documentary so much. And Jay Shetty was there and some other people, and one of the big influencers was there. And he shook my hand and we know each other. And he, he told his friend, he goes, every time I get around Tim’s story, I feel like this weird supernatural piece come on me.
RV (28:24):
TS (28:27):
But I really believe that, number one, I’m a chill dude anyway, but he will keep you in perfect peace of your mind is state on him, meaning God. And so my strength, whether I’m around the Dalai Lama or P Diddy or Jay-Z or whoever is, I’m not always talking Bible stuff. I’m just owning the gift and the life that God gave me. Hmm. And I’ll tell you man, I work with as you know, so many celebrities that are so far from the things of God and then get so close to the things of God just by somebody breaking it down and making it realistic. Mm-hmm.
RV (29:11):
TS (29:28):
And thanks, I think old school, go to tim story.com. I like what my boy Derek did on our website, so tim story.com and then on Instagram. I’m Tim, story official.
RV (29:41):
Thank you. Yeah. That’s so great. Well, um, and then if somebody is listening right now Yeah. Who is struggling with an addiction mm-hmm.
TS (29:56):
RV (29:57):
Or is in that dark place going, going, struggling with, you know, a marital affair got laid off from their job. You know, if, if they’re not anywhere near this space and this supernatural peace that you’re talking about, but they’re instead overwhelmed with anxiety and depression and fear and worry, um, what, what would you, what would you leave that person with?
TS (30:27):
Yeah, I, I would say number one, don’t put yourself down. So, um, a lot of clients I work with are famously on T M Z and people will say, man, you, I know you work with that guy or that lady, she’s still not fixed. Uh, I don’t think we ever all get cheered. I think we get better. So don’t put yourself down to for where you’re at, but what needs to happen is somehow you need to become awake. These are the steps of a comeback. You have to become awake somehow. The second thing you have to take inventory, like, where is my life really? Like what is this addiction doing? Or what is this affair doing in my life? Or getting caught in the fair or not getting caught? Uh, so you have to become awake, you have to take inventory number three, you have to partner with the right people. Hmm. So that’s what you’re doing today on this podcast. You’re partnering with people who actually care and we’re giving some clear answers. So you partner with the right people, but then you need the right principles in your life. And so we’re talking a lot about principles and so become awake, take inventory, partner with Right people, get the right principles and it’ll get you right back on the right path.
RV (31:41):
Yeah, man, I love it. Well, thanks for the inspiration and the reminder of the supernatural and the divine that lives in all of us. And, um, just the confidence that the miracle mentality is something that is available to all of us at any moment and that that can be something that transforms our life. So we’ll be praying for you, my friend, and cheering you on, and, uh, we wish you the best.
TS (32:05):
What a privilege. Thank you.
Ep 424: How Digital Marketing Could be Destroying Your Business with Tom Schwab
AJV (00:02):
Hey, everybody. Welcome to another episode on the Influential Personal Brand. And y’all are in for a treat today. In fact, I am in for a treat today because I am getting to connect with an old friend Tom Schwab, and he just reminded me today that, Hey, do you remember that one time we were on a cruise together? And I was like, oh my gosh. I had so completely forgotten eight years ago that that happened. So this was also a treat for me today. But before I introduce Tom, I want to tell you why you wanna stick around for today’s episode. So ask yourself this question. Have you ever thought that digital marketing might actually be hurting your business? If you have ever asked that thought that, or wondered how could digital marketing help me? Or is it helping me at all? This is an episode for you.
AJV (00:56):
I would also encourage you to stick away. Stick around if you have ever ventured into the idea of, I think one day I’d like a podcast. You know, everyone has a podcast. Do I need one? And I know from talking to so many of you I hear one of three things. I hear one, oh man, I’d love to start a podcast one day. That’s number one. Number two is, oh, there’s too many podcasts out there that market’s already saturated. There’s no room for another one. I hear that a lot. And number three is, oh, I have a podcast. Now, how do I get people to listen to it?
AJV (01:41):
This is an episode that you want to listen to. So, well, let’s get into it. Let me introduce you to Tom Schwab. There’s a couple of things I wanna just kind of highlight. But one thing that I love is he, he is coming with a refreshing new take, a new view on digital marketing and how to use it or not. He’s got a new book that has just come out. It’s one Conversation Away. And it’s based on a data and experience and expertise of working with over six or 700 leading brands. He’s also the chief evangelist officer, love that title at Interview Valet. And so if you are interested in the podcasting world, you probably wanna learn about interview valet and what they do and how that works. And in general, it, this is also just super fun because you always wanna reconnect with people that you actually know and that know you, and that you have shared friends and shared clients, and you know that what they’re gonna talk about brings value. And that’s what we get to do today. So, Tom, welcome to the show. Aj.
TS (02:46):
I am thrilled to be here.
AJV (02:48):
Oh my gosh, I am so excited. And I’m honestly, I’m, I’m so excited because of this first topic that we’re gonna start with. And we had just a quick chat about this before I hit record. And I, this is pretty compelling and it’s pretty provocative, which is how digital marketing is destroying your business. That’s a pretty provocative statement in a world where everyone else is selling you of, like, digital marketing is the way to go. And if you’re not online, you’re dead. So to hear you say that is like, we’re gonna start right there. We’re, we’re gonna bring that to the front. I wanna know, is it, is it, is it destroying your business? What do you think? I,
TS (03:26):
I think for a lot of business, it’s hurting the brand, not helping the brand. Hmm. And you say all the people that are telling you more and more, more louder, louder, louder. Right? You need to break through the noise. Did you ever notice that all the people that are telling you to break through the noise are the ones that are selling the megaphones and getting us all to yell louder, louder and louder? We’re yelling, but we’re not being heard. Right? We’re getting more efficient at things that are getting less and less effective. Oh, that’s good. And, and, and with that, it’s like, we know in our hearts this isn’t working, and this rat race isn’t going in the right place. And I I learned so much from our clients. And I can remember one client came to me and I’m like, why do you wanna do podcast interviews?
TS (04:15):
And I loved his answer. A ha he said, ’cause I think most of social media is the digital equivalent of advertising above urinals,
TS (05:11):
Well, if your customers aren’t there, why should you be? And I, I, I think back when my daughter was in middle school, Instagram was taking off, and she said, dad, you need to be there because everyone’s there. And I’m like, define everyone. And she’s like, me and all my friends,
AJV (05:48):
Oh my gosh, I love that I wrote this down. It’s like, most people today suffer from digital fomo. They do. It’s like, oh, it’s like, if, you know, know, you know, I have to, this is so embarrassing, I can’t believe I’m gonna admit this, but just two weeks ago we had dinner with some of our friends and one of our friends is also on our, our data team at Brand Builders Group. And we’re sitting down and he had said something about threads, and he was talking to Rory, and, and I’m just sitting there and I was like, not really paying attention. And finally they kept talking about it, and Rory was talking about his content on threads. And I was like, what is threads? And they both looked at me eyes wide, and they’re like, did you just say what is threads?
AJV (06:32):
And I was like, I don’t wanna seem dumb here, but what is it
TS (07:31):
Well, I think everybody is online in some area, right? And I would say trying to figure out where your clients are. Ask them, right? It’s a great, great marketing research. Find out other people that you are similar to, right? And you can figure out where they are, right? And if they’re finding success in those audiences, you can also, you know, sort of lookalike audiences. And I gotta admit that, oh, when we first started out nine years ago, it was more podcast guessing than podcast guessing, right?
AJV (08:48):
Yeah. We use Spark Touro ourselves, and I agree. It’s amazing. And it frighteningly ama it’s frighteningly amazing because it’s like, oh, that’s so creepy. You have all this data, but I love that it’s just ask your clients. Right? And it’s like, if you, but I think that’s where a lot of people make the mistake, is instead of asking who, they ask what, like, where, what should I be doing and where should I be versus going, no, who, who’s my audience? And where are they?
TS (09:16):
And I’ve always said, as business owners, as consultants, we always have opinions, right? But the people that have the answers are the ones that are voting with their dollars. Right. Our customers will tell us what they love and what they loathe if we ask them, and then listen to what they say.
AJV (09:36):
Yeah. So, I, I love that. What, what would you say is, is the best way for the person who’s listening going? I agree. I do wanna ask, I have no idea. What’s the best way to ask? How should I do it? Should I just send them an email? Should I put together a survey? Like what’s the best way to do it?
TS (09:52):
Once again, at, at times we get more and more efficient at things that are less and less effective, right? So you could send out a survey to all of these people, but I think you’re much better off having quality conversations with your super consumers. There’s a great book called Super Consumer by a a gentleman by the name of Eddie Yoon. And Eddie wrote it with the Harvard Business Reviews, and he said, or H B R he said that you just wanna market to your super consumer, not to everyone, right? So one of the examples that he uses in there is American Girl Dolls, right? They market to the people that buy every one, right. And all the accessories that go with it, because if you market to them, you’ll get that next ring with it. Mm-Hmm. And often those super consumers are gonna be the people that see your content and repost it. So I would look on that, and I, I’d rather have answers from 10 of my super consumers, my best clients, the people that I know I can bring a lot of value to than a MailChimp survey from a thousand people. Mm-Hmm.
AJV (11:05):
TS (11:50):
Well, I think there’s this idea in marketing today that you are just one funnel away, right?
TS (12:47):
No. If they wanna talk to you, they, you know, they wanna talk with the wizard and take action on there. And I think there’s a misunderstanding that what works for transactional sales at the low level can just be scaled up to relationship scale sales. You know, if that was the case, Boeing and Airbus would be, would be selling, you know, billion dollar contracts off of Facebook’s and funnels. Mm-Hmm.
AJV (13:25):
Yeah. So, you know, and I love, and I love that ’cause I agree, it’s like there’s a time and a place for all the things, but you gotta know what you’re selling and who you’re selling to, right? So in your world, would you say, you know, with some just industry statistics or trends or even your personal insights of like, when does a funnel make really good sense? Like, when, when is doing, you know, some, you know, pay-per click ads and some funnels really makes sense for who you’re going after, versus you gotta know these defining lines between when you’re gonna need to build relationships and work through referrals and, and have real conversations versus trying to just make more transactions. Mm-Hmm.
TS (14:06):
AJV (15:11):
Yeah. And I love that too, because I think that, you know, to that point, it’s like the person who maybe buys the course today with enough, you know, relational, you know, kind of credibility over time might be a prospect for the higher ticket sale. That knowing the difference between, what am I trying to do, where it’s just high volume, low margin, versus no, somebody’s gonna wanna talk to me, they’re gonna want references. And if I’m spending six figures on something, I’m probably gonna want more than just clicking on something online. Right? Well,
TS (15:41):
Well, you, you’re a good businesswoman and you figured out what he’s trying to do, right? He’s got the low margin and then the high margin, and in the middle is the coaching with that too. And so that’s his idea to go out there, do the course, right. And there’s gonna be a lot of people that say, I understand the course, but I want some help with this. Maybe they can’t afford the six figures, but they can afford the coaching. So I think it’s more of a continuum. Mm-Hmm.
AJV (16:23):
Yeah. And I love that we talk about that in our own business, in our own household all the time. It’s just like, it’s basic rules of economics, supply and demand, right? It’s the greater the demand, you can charge more, the lower the supply, you can charge more, right? And it’s like, if you’re on a two year waiting list, there’s a not a lot of supply and a whole bunch of demand, so you get to charge more versus that, you know, high volume, lower fee funnels. But again, time and a place for all the things, it’s just knowing when, what and for who. And I love that. No, on that note, there is something that’s kind of in this realm of how do you start bringing people in and a, attracting them and building a relationship with them that has nothing to do per se with, you know, you know, ads or funnels. But it, I would say that podcasting kind of falls into this, you know, digital kind of marketing realm in some respect. And I know obviously you’re a big proponent and fan of podcasting, so I wanna hear your take on like, how do people use podcasting to build their brand, build their business?
TS (17:38):
Well, I’ll talk about my personal one, right? And here, here’s being honest. Now I’m an engineer at heart, right? People joke that English is my second language and they’re not sure what my first one is, is. So I’ve written a lot of blogs in my life, but every one of ’em was a homework assignment. Hmm. Right? So for me, it’s very easy to talk, right? We can have this conversation here, and there’s a lot of problems in the world today, but there’s no better time to be alive, right? Because we can take this discussion that we had, we can get the transcript, we can clean that up and turn it into blogs, into articles to repurpose it. So really look at what’s the easiest way for you to make the content, and then what ways can you repurpose it so that you can give it to your ideal customers in the way that they wanna consume it, right?
TS (18:30):
Because not everybody consumes the, the same way, right? 51% of the US population listens to podcasts, right? If your audience is hearing impaired, they’re not gonna listen to your podcast. But it doesn’t mean that you couldn’t write a blog or do captions or something like that in order to repurpose that. And the great part is, from a digital marketing standpoint, it doesn’t take any more of my time, right? It used to be you’d have to spend a lot of money to do that, you know, relatively. Now with ai, you can chop that up, you can make it so much easier to get a lot of content through there. So I, I don’t look at it as an either or as an engineer. I, I look at how do you get the most with putting the least amount in? And so if I’m gonna invest the time to do a 45 minute interview, how much content can I get out of that? Mm-Hmm.
AJV (19:25):
Yeah. So what would you tell somebody that’s got a podcast and you’re, you know, they’re going, oh, whoa, whoa, whoa, I have not been utilizing all of the assets of these interviews. Hold on. What would you say to go back and do?
TS (19:40):
I would start with your best podcast, right? Whatever your, your top four, top five are, and we used to go out, out and get a journalism intern, right? And say, Hey, here’s our interviews. Could you write some blogs out of here? Could you make some clips out of these? Right? That’s what they’re trained to do. Now with ai, you can also do other ones where ask chat g p t to pull out the best quotes from there. There’s different tools online, and I’m not gonna mention any, because by the time this goes out, they’re gonna be saying, oh, those got superseded by this. But just go out there and look, and you can see the ones that click clip the best portions from that. So don’t feel like you’ve always gotta do more, more and more, right? Do more with what you have.
TS (20:26):
Often we’ll have clients that come to us and I, I can think of one that wanted to do a hundred podcast interviews in the month, and I was like, why? She’s like, oh, that’ll be massive exposure. I’m like, it seems like a massive amount of work to me.
AJV (21:02):
Yeah. And I think that kind of comes back to that thing that we talked about earlier with, is digital marketing destroying your business as people think, oh, more, more, more is what we need to do. I need to post 15 times a day. I need to be on it all the time. And no, not necessarily. So when it comes to podcasting, do you have a recommendation on like, this is a good, you know, flow of how often you should be releasing a podcast if you have a podcast?
TS (21:31):
Well, I’ve got an opinion, but I’ve also got data behind that too. Okay, let’s
AJV (21:35):
Do, I’ll hear it.
TS (21:36):
So for a podcast itself, right? You don’t wanna do it less than two times a month, right? Ideally is typically about once a month, or I’m sorry, once a week. So it comes out weekly. And you think about it, we’re used to that with television, right? When, you know, Seinfeld came out once a week there. So that pace, people get used to it. If you start taking long times off, long time off of it, the idea that you’re gonna come back and they’re gonna find you and get back in that habit, it probably won’t hurt. Hmm. So consistency is so important. Whatever you start out with, make sure you can consistently deliver that. You know, there’s certain people that will start out with the daily podcast and then life gets in the way, right? And then they drop to two a week, and people’s first question is, well, why’d you quit?
TS (22:29):
Why are you giving up? Right?
AJV (23:41):
Hmm. I love that. So speaking of better, what would you, you say makes podcasts better? Like you do a lot, have one, I’m sure you interview a lot. What makes a great podcast?
TS (23:56):
Well, I don’t know that I will say podcasts are better, right? For me, they’re better For 51% of the US population, they’re better, right? On average, above average income, above average education, right? If you are in the academic world, in peer reviewed, you know, maybe that podcast isn’t the ideal one for you. Mm-Hmm.
TS (24:49):
G p t
AJV (25:44):
Yeah. I love, I love what you said about that. ’cause It’s so true. It’s reading something versus listening where you can hear the tonality and the context, and and especially if you’re watching right, then you get all the other components of it. If you’re watching it in video, because I do think it’s true, it’s like people fall in love with the conversation, but more so they fall in love with the people having the conversation. So how do you let your personality come out and doing it on audio? And then specifically video really helps people feel like they know you before they ever know you, right? That that’s,
TS (26:22):
Yeah. I don’t know if you’ve ever had this experience, but it’s, it, it’s freaky the first time it happens. I remember being at an airport one time and somebody came up and said, are you Tom Schwab? And my first answer was, are you a process server? Right?
AJV (27:01):
Yeah. That’s so cool. I love that. No another question I have on this topic, and I have one other topic to get to and I’m watching the clock, but I just, I love this concept of podcasts since we’re on one, and we both have one. And I’m a, I’m a huge proponent and a fan of it for lots of different reasons. But in your opinion, for those people who have a podcast who are listening to this today, and they’re struggling with knowing, how do I make it better? Like, how do I become a better interviewer? Or how do I become a better interviewee? Or what makes my podcast worth listening to, to the end? Or how do I get people to want to even check out my podcast? Any tips or ideas around that?
TS (27:48):
Very much so. And often people will come to us before they have a podcast and they wanna be a guest so that they can go out there and almost see behind the curtain how other people do it. And if you go out there as a guest, there’s less pressure. You also can practice on someone else’s stage and see how they do it. And it’s like, oh, I like how AJ does this, and I’m gonna work that into my podcast. And so it’s a great way to do that. Another way to grow the podcast cliff Ravenscraft, I, I don’t know if you know Cliff, he used to be called the Podcast Answer Band. And I remember him saying early on, the best place to follow or find podcasts listeners is listening to podcasts
TS (28:45):
Hmm. So going out on other podcasts with your ideal audience is a great way to talk about your podcast, get them back there and grow it. The final thing that I would say on that is watch the game film. And you think about what’s the difference between a professional and an amateur in sports. You know, the amateur goes out there and just loves playing the game, right? The professional plays the game and then they watch the game film. And it’s always different, right? You always learn something from it. So I, I listen to all of our clients’ first interviews to give ’em feedback, but I also recommend that they listen to their interviews because the way I hear this interview is gonna be different than when I replay it and it’s like, oh, I should have done this, or I didn’t answer that question completely. And it helps you get better. Hmm. You know, because no matter what you do, your worst interview will be your first interview. Mm-Hmm.
AJV (29:56):
So I gotta know, since you I think that’s awesome and so fascinating, what great market research that you listen to all of those podcasts. So what’s the number one piece of feedback that you give most often?
TS (30:09):
The biggest one I talk to ’em about is slowing down. Hmm. The studies say that 70% of podcasts are listened to sped up, and I’ll speak for myself. When I get excited, I talk faster and faster and faster,
TS (31:02):
So slow down. And we had a, a client early on Arthur, Joseph Arthur has been the speech coach for the N F L for over three decades. And he’s written most of the Hall of Fame speeches and coaches him. And I remember being at the end of a call one time with him, and it was like, okay, Arthur, you do this, I’ll do that. And as a true professional, he just leaned in and he goes, Tom, you have children, don’t you? I’m like, yeah, Arthur, I do. He’s like, oh, do they listen better when you speed up or you slow down? And I’ve always remembered that,
AJV (31:39):
Oh, I love that
TS (32:39):
When they’re nervous and you know, Chris Voss from Never Split the Difference you know, great, great marriage book, great business book, great parenting book about hostage negotiation, right? And I love how he talks about mirroring. So if you’ve got somebody that talks a little bit faster, you can talk a little bit faster. If they’re very slow, you better be slow because mm-hmm.
AJV (33:17):
Oh, that’s good. That’s a great tip for anyone who’s a guest on a podcast specifically. I love that. All right, last topic. Why leveraging other people’s platforms is better or more valuable, maybe not better, but more valuable than leveraging other people’s money?
TS (33:36):
I made this comment back when interest rates were what 2%. I still, I still believe it at the current interest rates. And let me give you an example. Alright. Sarah Blakely, who started Spanx, right? How did she launch Spanx? It was largely off the Oprah show. Right? Now, if Oprah would’ve said, I love this product, you know, Sarah, I’m gonna give you a million dollars interest free, just grow your business. I’m sure she wouldn’t have said no. Right? But if it was here, I’ll give you a million dollars interest free, pay it back whenever you want, or keep it right, or I’d like to bring you on mm-hmm.
TS (34:38):
I remember seeing Rory a couple years ago up in Columbus at Lewis House event, right? He realized that it was worth his time and investment to go up there and tap into somebody else’s audience. And I think especially today when it’s not, doesn’t mean that you’ve gotta jump on a plane and, and, and take time away. It’s really just, you know, 45 minutes for a podcast interview. I think a lot of people try too hard to build their audience instead of using other people’s audiences, especially at the beginning, like, what you guys always teach, and I love this, you’re doing the right things in the wrong order. Right? If I’ve got a huge following, then it makes sense to do this. And, you know, often people will say, should I be a guest or a host on a podcast? And I’m like, it’s not an either or mm-hmm.
AJV (36:05):
Yeah. No, I love that. And I completely agree. You know, it’s interesting, as you were talking, I was thinking about how many people in the Brand Builders group community come to us initially, and their, their goal is, Hey, I, I, I hear this all the time. I wanna make money while I sleep. I’m like, I think we all wanna do that. What, what, how exactly do you wanna do that? And they’re going, well, I wanna launch a course. And it’s like, okay do you have anyone to sell the course too? Well, I need to do that too. I’m like, okay, do you have content for the course? Well, that’s what I’m hiring you for. And it’s like, their very first thing is, I wanna make money while sleep, so I’m gonna build a course. And they don’t yet have a platform, and they don’t yet have the content thought out for it.
AJV (36:47):
And most importantly they forget that building a platform and launching a course takes a lot of time and a lot of money. And it’s like, back to that, you know, kind of concept of like, well, if you don’t have the platform, you’re going to need to borrow someone else’s. So who do you know who can cross promote this? Or what shows can you be on? What speaking engagements can you do? And don’t be expecting to be paid for them, right? And it’s, do you have the time, energy, resources, and money to wait that out while you do all these other things? And that’s what I, I love about this whole thing of other people’s platforms is, you know, you don’t have to have a huge platform to make a huge impact. It’s like you don’t have to recreate the wheel to make this whole make this whole car turn here.
AJV (37:32):
Other people have the wheels. You just, you kind of need to jump on and, and take it while you’re building yours. And Sarah Blakely is a great example. And even us at Brand Builders Group, it’s like, when we launched this company five years ago, we had no podcasts, no. So no social media, no email list. We didn’t even have a website when we launched, but we had a great relationship and a solid reputation with Lewis House. And Lewis had a huge platform, and that Lewis had a huge reach, and we launched our whole business on his podcast.
TS (38:11):
That is a testament, and I didn’t realize that the, the other thing I would say is you had a great reputation, right? And I think people forget about that and they’ll say, well, you know, Tony Robin sells this course. Brendan Bouchard sells this course. I I can use the same funnel, the same script, all the same hacks, right? And it’s like, but you’re not them. Yeah. Right? They’ve had those conversations, they’ve had that reputation for a long, long time. People will vouch for ’em, and after that, it all becomes easy. And once again, I, I love how you guys say doing the right things in the wrong order. And at the end of the day, we’re not optimizing for activity. Mm-Hmm. Right? We’re optimizing for the value we bring to the market, because when we bring value to the market, we also get profits. Right? Right. And what you were talking about, the conversations you have around home about supply and demand, I wish more people would have that. Right? I see. Optimizing for leads, optimizing for likes, right? That’s not what we’re optimizing for. We’re, we’re optimizing for demand to exceed supply. Yeah. Because economics in high school said that’s where profits are. And if you’re getting profits, you’re delivering value to the community.
AJV (39:27):
Yes. I mean, basic, basic law of economics applies to every single part of what we’re talking about here today. I have loved this conversation. I have one one last random pop question for you. Do you have a favorite podcast that you would like to recommend that you’re like, man, this is my go-to podcast. I learned so much from this podcast.
TS (39:53):
I, I can think of one, but I’ll say, because I listened to everybody’s podcast, their first one. I love it because, you know somebody asked me one time, what was the last podcast you listened to? I looked on my phone and I said, adoption now. And they’re like, huh? And I’m like, yeah, one of our clients were on it. It was really interesting. So I encourage people, just listen to random podcasts or listen to a podcast that you totally disagree with, with their premise, because you’ll learn something or at least appreciate them. I think my go-to one is follow your different with Christopher Lockhead. Mm-Hmm.
AJV (40:56):
Hmm. I love that. That’s so good. Y’all, if y’all have enjoyed this conversation, I would just encourage you to check Tom out, learn more about him, and also check out his new book One Conversation Away. We’ll put a link to that in the show notes, but you can go to interview valet.com/ipb for influential personal brand. Again, check it out, interview valet.com/ipv. And before I let you go, Tom can you give us just a 62nd rundown so everyone knows what is Interview Valet and what do you do?
TS (41:34):
Sure. Interview Valet is a podcast interview marketing agency. Our mission is to personally introduce inspiring thought leaders to millions of people they could serve for the betterment of all. So working with high level coaches, high level consultants, brands, nonfiction authors, to really help them get on podcasts, not just as an ego thing, but to drive real business results. So we’ve got a team of 30 in Europe and North America. My microphone makes me sound good. My team makes me look good,
AJV (42:09):
I love that. So y’all go check it out specifically if you’re trying to figure out this whole podcast game. How do you grow your podcast? Well, one way to do it is to be on others podcasts. Use that borrowed audience, and this is one way you could do that. So again, interview valet.com/ipv and stick around for the recap episode and I’ll see you next time.
Ep 422: How to Build a $300 Million Training Company with Scott Jeffrey Miller
RV (00:01):
It’s not that often that someone cold pitches us for our podcast, and then we agree to have them on. But Scott, Jeffrey Miller and his team, when they pitched us, I immediately was like, yeah, this is an easy yes. He was at 25 years, he had a career where he served as the chief marketing officer and the executive vice president for a little company you may have heard of, called Franklin Covey. He even still to this day, is the senior advisor on thought leadership, where he leads their strategy and development and the publication of their, you know, the firm’s bestselling books. He leads a host, their podcast, which is one of the biggest podcasts in the world on leadership. He personally has written seven books. He’s a Wall Street Journal, bestselling author himself. He’s got a new book coming out from Harper Collins called The Ultimate Mentoring Guide. And he also runs an agency, a speaking literary and talent agency called Gray and Miller. So I recognized all of his friends, all the work he’s done, and blown away by who this man knows how successful he’s been, what he’s been a part of. And so anyways, I was like, yes, I want to talk to Scott Jeffrey Miller, and here he is, Scott, Jeffrey Miller.
SJM (01:19):
Rory, thank you for the spotlight. Thank you for the platform. Looking forward to coming over and swimming in that pool behind you someday, but let’s get it on
RV (01:27):
SJM (01:42):
We get the name right. And Rory, it’s the Ultimate Guide to great mentorship. You, you keep condensing it. Oh,
RV (01:48):
Well, this is what I got from your team, buddy. So we might wanna,
SJM (01:51):
Oh, they’re gonna be in trouble. We
RV (01:53):
Might
SJM (01:55):
Need some inventory.
RV (01:57):
I’m reading it. Well, and here’s what I would love, in all seriousness, I would, I would love to almost treat this as if I were a mentor of yours because at Brand Builders Group my wife and I started a company that we grew to eight figures, and then we sold it. And in that company I was more kind of like the c e o and, and and she was more of the business facing kind of person. And our new company, she is the c e o and I’m more like the C M O. And I’m just totally fascinated and curious about what was Franklin Covey like 25 years ago when you started, what did, what are all the things you did? How did you do that? I mean, obviously you have seven habits of Highly Effective People sells, you know, 20 plus million copies or however many it is. Like 50, is it, is that, is it 50 million now? 55 million?
SJM (02:52):
Yeah, keep going.
RV (02:53):
I mean, what’s another 20 million? Yeah, I mean,
SJM (03:14):
Are not that much younger than me. I mean, come on, let’s go Now. Wait, are you mentoring me or am I mentoring
RV (03:19):
You? You’re mentoring me. Uhhuh
SJM (03:23):
Don’t flaunt. Don’t flaunt your good luck.
RV (03:25):
I’m just, I don’t know how old you are. You look very young, but you say 25.
SJM (03:28):
You’re I’m, I’m 43.
RV (03:30):
43, okay, great. Yeah, so you’re, anyways, you’re mentoring me. Yeah, you’re my senior.
SJM (03:34):
I’m actually 55, but let’s answer your
RV (03:36):
Question. Ah, okay. There. It’s okay.
SJM (03:38):
Let’s see. Born and raised in central Florida. Orlando worked for the Walt Disney Company for four years until they invited me to leave, which is kind of how it goes there. So,
SJM (04:29):
The E V P of thought leadership had an amazing journey. This is of course a public global leadership firm. The most trusted leadership firm we think in the world. Never expected to say 25 years, but it was a great culture. People ask me why did I stay? I say, because the c e o loved me. So my advice to your wife is people don’t quit. Leaders who love them. Mm-Hmm. The CEO liked me with nothing in common. Right. I’m a Catholic, he’s a Mormon. He is like a Kona iron Man. I like, I walk past the Peloton and say hi. He’s very reserved.
SJM (05:19):
I became very aware of the difference between being effective and being efficient. One is not better than the other, but they’re very different. And we sometimes irresponsibly use them interchangeably. Right. Having an efficient mindset is not the same as having an effective mindset under our team’s leadership. We, you know, launched 10 New York Times. We journal bestsellers, which became the lifeblood of a company that really is at its heart, a leadership development firm. Wow. Books represent about 5% of the company’s revenue, if even that. And so books were the front of the spear, the tip of the spear, if you will. And so learned a lot, got humbled a few hundred times along the way, and had an amazing journey. Retired from the firm three years ago. I think the thing that I’m most proud of is I’m still married to my wife after 14 years, and the chairman of the board and the c e o still speak to me and hire me, and I’m still in good standing, not as an employee. And I’m very proud of my association. Yeah,
RV (06:12):
That’s really cool. That’s really cool about that. You, you know, you retired and you’re still, you’re still there. So you, you mentioned the revenue. Okay. ’cause and, and Franklin Covey is a public publicly traded company. Yeah. So were you, you were there when it was a privately held company. Was
SJM (06:30):
I was, when,
RV (06:32):
When did that happen and what was that like going from We are a small private company to now we are an actual publicly traded company because there’s one of the things that we talk about you know, like we have a, we have a course called Eight Figure Entrepreneur that’s one of the like you know, sections of curriculum that we have. And we talk about how almost no personal brands get to eight figures. Like very rarely they get to seven figures, multi seven figures. We call it the swamp. Between one and 3 million. They get stuck. Very few get to, you know, 10 you know, $10 million or eight figures. But then what you’re talking about are Franklin Covey is way past that. You’re in like Dave Ramsey land and like only a few companies that have ever gotten Yes. Into the nine figure territory. So like, how and why did you guys get there? Like how did you pull that off?
SJM (07:24):
Sure. It’s, it’s far, it’s a little bit complicated. You know, 300 plus million worldwide global company based here in Salt Lake City. I think I, I’m gonna answer your question two ways. One is, I think one of the reasons why these personality guru, you know, namesake companies don’t scale, is they become too contingent on the person. Mm-Hmm.
SJM (08:15):
A good friend of mine. And I don’t think Jim has made, in my opinion, all the right decisions on how to make sure his brand endures beyond his passing, like Stephen Covey did. So that idea of diversifying beyond you being the core brand, I think is important. To answer your bigger question, ours happened a little bit differently. So Covey Leadership Center was a private boutique leadership firm owned by Stephen Covey and Seven Investors. The Franklin Quest company, 30 miles North in Salt Lake City, was the planner company. Right. A much larger public company founded by Hiram Smith, but a public firm traded on the New York, New York Stock Exchange. They had a merger known as an acquisition. And so the public company, Franklin Quest, acquired the Covey Leadership Center and came to market as the Franklin Covey Company 25 years ago. Mm-Hmm.
SJM (09:13):
With revenue goals and cost of goods and margin and ebitda. So for 20, you know, six years we were consumed with ebitda. I think I was responsible for 100 quarters, quarter after quarter. You’re only as good as your EBITDA was this last quarter. That’s probably the biggest difference. The biggest challenge was as a private company, you could focus on top line growth and be a little less worried about ebitda. And as a public company, it was an all consuming passion because we had a fiduciary responsibility to not just individual investors, but to institutional investors that had put their, you know, their retirement funds and their, you know, their, their cash into our company. So we took it extremely seriously. And the stock at its low was, I think, under a dollar. We were threatened with de-listing, and I think a few months ago it hit 54. And so it’s been an amazing journey to be part of that wealth creation for millions of people, not to mention the hundreds of millions of people that access our content in their organizations.
RV (10:16):
Yeah. That is, that’s amazing. So it really happened then through the acquisition. So this, this company that did planners Yes. Saw the value of what Dr. Covey and the team was teaching, and then they basically acquired the IP and incorporated into their planners.
SJM (10:32):
That’s a great story. If that were, what happened, I think what really happened is you had kind of two arch rivals in the marketplace. Right? The Franklin Quest company was the world dominator in thought leadership around productivity and planning, planning tools, selling hundreds of millions of dollars of paper planners each year. They had hundreds of retail stores around the nation, but they didn’t have the, the organizational wide impact around leadership development and strategy execution. Franklin or the Covey Leadership Center also had a paper planner, had a few dozen retail stores, but that market was going to go away. The companies knew the future of productivity was not in a paper planner. We knew this, we’re often mocked about that, but I mean, we actually became the, the largest retailer of palm pilots in the world as we migrated from paper planning to digital planning. Although, you know, now paper planning is back with a resurgence. I don’t know anybody doesn’t use a paper planner tool, but it was the Covey Leadership Center that kind of came out on top because Dr. Covey’s brand was still peaking. And his book, the Seven Habits continues to sell, you know, a million copies a year, which is unheard of for a book published 29 plus 30 years ago. Right. Almost 40 years ago, actually.
RV (11:48):
Yeah, that is, that’s amazing. So if, so take so back in the days of Covey Leadership Center, like, like you said today, I guess you said 5% of revenue is books and I guess is that Well,
SJM (12:02):
Probably, probably 2%. I mean, books is about maybe three to $4 million a year of a $300 million company. It’s very small.
RV (12:10):
Okay. Is that what it was? So were you there when it was Covey Leadership Center? It was, I was, you were there. You were there before. Yeah. So what was
SJM (12:19):
The, I was there always
RV (12:21):
What was the business model back then prior to the acquisition? It
SJM (12:24):
Was still similar. I mean, the books were always meant to be marketing tools. Not now, not, you know, overtly. Right. I mean, you and I share some passions and some business competencies. I’m asked daily how to write a, how to get a bestselling book. And I say, write a great book,
RV (13:40):
Uhhuh. Whoa. Wait, say that last part about per the, the daily rate you’re talking
SJM (13:45):
About. Yeah. Dr. Covey was earning $150,000 a day after his book became this, you know, seminal leadership book, the Seven Habits of Highly Effective People. So the book definitely Dro drove his personal income, right. Which was speaking, but it was mainly a marketing tool for organizations. ’cause What happened, Rory, is, you know, every year 5 million people read the seven Habits of Highly Affected People. And a million of them were leaders in organizations. And they said, oh my gosh, this book was personally transformative. I need my 30 team members to learn these principles. They would call us and spend $25,000 hiring someone from our company to come in for three days and train their staff. Or we had to train the trainer model. So we had, at any given time, you know, eight or 10,000 employees of other companies that were certified in our Train the trainer model. And that’s where the margin was. The margin wasn’t in flying a consultant around the nation. The margin was, you know, certifying 20 people at Toyota or 200 people to train our content and go train 30,000 people in the content where the margin on the workbook was 90%. Right. That was, that’s where the margin, that’s where half of the margin of the company was. And proba no half of the revenue, and probably 80% of the margin was in the train the trainer model.
RV (15:03):
And that’s because it was in the kits. ’cause You were shipping kit, you’re basically at that point just shipping kits. That’s right. All over the
SJM (15:09):
World. You’re, you’re taking orders all day long from 8,000 certified facilitators who don’t work for your company. They’re just your brand ambassador. They work for all these major Fortune 5,000 companies, and they’re in human resources and they’re training their people to be effective, and they’re training as many classes as possible so that they can create density in the organization to have a highly effective culture. So for us, it was a genius model where we’re selling world-class intellectual property in the form of a participant kit, digital or print. Now it’s mainly digital, then it was exclusively print. And now we’re growing across the world with 60 offices licensing people to represent us. And now you’ve got content translated into 25 languages. So when Exxon comes and they wanna have a true cultural transformation and train 80,000 employees across 40 countries, we can do it.
RV (16:01):
Mm-Hmm.
SJM (16:33):
It was actually exactly what you just described. First. It was the book. It was hundreds of thousands of people a month buying this book. And in it was a little paper card you could rip out and fill out and mail back to the company. I want more in, more information. I’m interested in attending a public program at a local hotel for my own personal development. I’m interested in becoming a certified facilitator. I’m interested in a keynote. I’m interested in bringing in a consultant. And thousands of these cars flowed back in the mail, like put a stamp on it and mail it back. Wow. Thousands a week came in.
RV (17:13):
Wow.
SJM (17:14):
And then you had Dr. Covey out speaking to every association, every board of directors, every conference out three and four times a day, gin up, you know, thousands and thousands of leads, and the phones were ringing off the hook like they used to do. So then you had to onboard salespeople to take all these thousands of inbound phone calls. There was no email. It was the phone in the mail, and you called people back and said, Rory, we got your inquiry card. Are you still interested? And we were just booking, you know, thousands of engagements every month, not to mention hundreds of open enrollment public programs. So there you, Dr. Covey couldn’t deliver all these, so you had to scale before you know it, you had two Coveys and then eight Coveys, and then 10 Coveys, and then 150 Coveys, meaning certified consultants that worked for our company that were out training our content. And then it just kept growing and growing and growing. And then we, you know, obviously built a massive marketing machine, and it really was based on the foundation of several books. It was the Seven Habits of Highly Effective People. And then his son, Sean Covey, wrote the book, the Seven Habits of Highly Effective Teens. This book has sold 10 million copies, and now Franklin,
RV (18:23):
Like teenagers,
SJM (18:24):
Teenagers, it’s the most successful youth leadership book in history. Franklin Covey now has a $50 million education division where they just simply sell leadership training to K 12 schools to train students and faculty and staff $50 million in the K 12 business. And then his oldest son Steven, m r Covey wrote a book called The Speed of Trust that sold 3 million copies that then became a huge trust offering how to become a high trust leader. Then they wrote books on execution and sales. And everyone became a Wall Street Journal bestseller because we made it happen ethically by having, you know, just having a tenacious work ethic and writing great books. By the way, these books took like five and six years to write these books that did really well. They didn’t write these books in nine months like I do with my books. Right. My books sell, you know, six, eight, 10,000 copies a year. They sell 300,000 copies because they take, you know, a decade sometimes to write these books. Mm-Hmm.
RV (19:28):
SJM (19:34):
Well, it was private, so I don’t know their revenue. It was private. We probably had, you know, 40 salespeople. Now they have 250. And so I’m gonna guess it was probably 50 million or 30 million. I don’t know. I was 25 years old and it was 30 years ago. And it was a private company, so it wasn’t disclosed or discussed
RV (19:55):
Uhhuh
SJM (20:00):
Something like that. Yeah. Now there’s probably about 1200 around the world. And not to mention, you know, literally hundreds of thousands of ambassadors, because what happens is when Rory leaves Exxon and goes to Disney, he brings the content with them. And then when he goes to, you know Twitter or X, he, he go, takes it there too. They could use the content by the way. But it’s what, what Dr. Covey did was he very quickly checked his ego. Mm. And one of his best talents was he was a very humble man. He did not need to be the star of the company. He did not need to be on stage. And he realized if the mission was to impact billions of people, that in order to scale, he had to deputize people in his place. Same character, same competence, and sometimes better competence.
SJM (20:47):
I, I don’t think Dr. Covey was a great presenter. I think he was a great teacher. But I mean, there’s a hundred people that deliver the content better than Dr. Covey ever did, in my opinion. That has nothing to do with whether he wasn’t a, a person of enormous influence and character. He was. But he realized if I’m gonna change the world and I’m gonna grow this company into a juggernaut, I gotta step out of the way. I’ve gotta recruit talent. He was a, he was a college professor. He wasn’t, he didn’t know how to run a company. He did. And he, and he did it beautifully in the beginning, but what I think he did best was he stepped out of the way and hired operators and marketers and people understood process. And then he was the intellectual property genius, creating new content and connecting with audiences, and then stepped outta the way to scale it with great salespeople and great delivery consultants, presenters, keynote speakers. Mm-Hmm.
RV (21:41):
So when you think back over, like in the marketing role, c m o right? That’s a pretty big shift from 50 million to 300 million. That’s a long, that’s a lot of distance that you guys have covered. When you look at like, some of the big marketing initiatives that have, you know, made that effort. I mean, you talked about the pullout mailer card. Yes. Were there any other like really pivotal moments Yes. That you think back on
SJM (22:08):
One in particular, and it’s kind of a mantra at Franklin Covey where I no longer work or am an officer, but consult externally on a variety of things for the board and the chairman and the c e o and host two podcasts for them. The mantra is nothing sells Franklin Covey, like a Franklin Covey experience. Hmm. If you take Rory and you certify him as a bonafide Franklin Covey consultant, and you put Rory in, you know, a Western hotel room in Miami, and you get 70 chief learning officers, chief human resource officers, vice president of talent development in the room for three hours with Rory pro bono. Right. Serve a chicken lunch, no charge, get ’em in the room. Don’t try to sell anything to them. Just teach them the principles of engagement. Building a culture, how to be highly effective, how to build a high trust culture with where millennials come and stay.
SJM (23:06):
Eight of them will walk away and buy from you. 24, 22 won’t, but eight will and replicate that model. Get people to taste and feel the experience. It might be reading a book, it might be listening to an audio tape, it might be going to a three day public program at a Marriott with 40 people. You don’t know. It might be a marketing breakfast or a lunch might be a full day program where you invite, you know, CFOs to come and teach CFOs how to build an interpersonal culture where people choose to build their whole career under you. You’re gonna land 10 of them. And that’s what we did better than anybody in the world. Mm-Hmm.
RV (24:13):
Wow. And you were saying that those events might have like 30 people in ’em and typically something like that. They were small. It’s not like you’re packing out arenas, you’re just going No,
SJM (24:23):
Although we did, oh, we, we, we would have events at 200. But the magic model, honest to God, the magic model was, and this isn’t, you know, sales secret to Franklin Covey, but the magic model was curating the list very carefully, calling, inviting people to a non-sales event, underwriting it. Right. We’re not charging you for it. We’re gonna serve you lunch, you’re gonna be with your peers. There’ll be no sales pitch. We’re just gonna teach you X, Y, or Z. And, you know, you invite, you know, 200 and a hundred say yes. And then you vet ’em out and then 70 Promise they’re gonna come and 45 show up. So you set the room for 52, and then you’d give them just a quality experience where they can talk and you talk and they share, and you share and you share principles of effectiveness that they desperately need in their company.
SJM (25:13):
They desperately need people that have great skill sets around technical capabilities and hard skills, but most of them lack the soft skills now known as power skills. And you teach these power skills of interpersonal effectiveness. And we know to the precise algorithm who’s gonna buy, how long it will take and how much they will spend. And you get this formula, you tweak it, you tweak it, you massage it. What you do not do is you don’t shortcut it. You don’t invite ’em, pardon the phrase to a country. And in suites you don’t invite them to Ritz Carlton. You invite them to a, a a, an appropriate hotel that matches their culture and their comfortability. You put them in the right size room at the right time of the day for the right period of time, teach them great content, and then you follow up and you have a winning formula, of course, that, that, that contracted in the pandemic.
SJM (26:08):
Right. Everything became a podcast, a webinar, an email. And now I think they’re coming back to these live person events and they’re seeing enormous benefit because innately people are human creatures that crave connection and interpersonal relationships. And you get into a Franklin Covey room for even 90 minutes. Right. We have C-suite events that are just for the C-suite, 90 minutes. They’re usually breakfast seven to eight 30 ’cause a ’cause you know, a C-level person can do that. They can’t come to lunch, they can’t come to a three o’clock event or a 10 o’clock event. You’ll have an 80% no show rate. You’ll have a 90% show rate if you do a breakfast before the C-suite actually has to be in the office. Just kind of tweaking and playing.
RV (26:52):
Man, that is so awesome and simple and powerful, right. Of just, just adding value to people’s lives first and then letting it, letting it fall out from there. Yeah. You mentioned ego. I feel like the companies that get a chance to scale a a lot of times start to fall apart because of someone’s ego or a few people’s ego. And it’s interesting ’cause you wrote books while you were there, even though you’re retired now as your consultant. So you guys, you’ve mentioned even in the family, they had several personal brands, but also you had a personal brand that you were starting. What was the philosophy there? Because I feel like a lot of companies are not quick to embrace the idea of personal brands of the executives because there’s this fear of they’re gonna get too big for their britches and it causes conflict and jealousy and all these issues. But clearly you guys have done this. How have you balanced personal brands with the corporate brand
SJM (27:49):
Was not well received.
RV (27:50):
Ah,
SJM (27:51):
I was a pariah. The company’s culture, which by the way, I am an unabashed ambassador for Franklin Covey, if you want to change the culture of your company, Franklin Covey, in my opinion, is the most trustworthy, ethical provider of principles in the marketplace. I have nothing but a positive thing to say about this company, period. I’m an unabashed evangelist for them. They don’t pay me to do that. And at Franklin Covey, there was a philosophy that you can’t have a personal brand. It’s all about the company. It’s Franklin Covey. And I think it was a wrong decision. I think it was rooted in the culture of the dominant population in the state. You can read the lines there, but I think it was a dangerous misstep for the company because people don’t follow companies on Instagram. They follow people. People don’t follow people on LinkedIn.
SJM (28:48):
They follow people. And I think I was a pariah. I don’t think I was, I know for a fact I was a pariah for the last three years of my career there, where I started to write books. And my books did quite well because I marketed them and I built a brand with myself on YouTube and Instagram and LinkedIn and Facebook and you name it. I was very self-promotional. ’cause I knew that was the formula that was gonna take me. And I thought the company to the next level. I think the company is starting to really realize the benefit of raising up individual thought leaders in the organization. Not that are self-serving, but are in service to the brand, but can build a massive followership. People care more what Stephen, Mr. R Covey has to say about trust than they do what Franklin Covey has to say about trust. They care more about what Chris McChesney has to say about executing strategy. He’s the author of the Wall Street Journal, best history,
RV (29:49):
Foreign Disciplines of Execution. Yeah.
SJM (29:50):
Foreign disciplines. Right? Yeah. And so I think there’s a fine balance of not being a grandstander not being an opportunist while still building your brand. And so it wasn’t the case. I I I, there was a cross on the front yard with me and some flames on it for quite a while as I became the Johnny Apple seed of finding that delicate balance and tension of building your brand, not at the expense of, but in service with the overall all brand. And it’s, you know, not everybody gets it right. I didn’t always get it right. The c e o and I are very good friends to this day. He used to work for me, now I work for him. And so we talk a lot about that balance of not having your brand overshadow the company’s brand, but being able to each of you kind of ride each other’s waves in tandem for the service of the company, our clients and our shareholders. It, it’s a delicate balance.
RV (30:48):
Mm-Hmm.
SJM (31:52):
Over and over and over again. Franklin Covey was an interesting test because we were a public company. There’s very few public leadership development firms Yeah. That were, you know, eccentrically founded on a guy who passed 10 years ago. And the company has grown independent of his foundation. Interdependent. And, but at the same time, rising up thought leaders that may or may not stay. I mean, one of my biggest contributions to the firm has been to judiciously select authors that are employees of the company that aren’t gonna leave two years from now when the book’s been outta the marketplace for a year and have to rewrite the book or extract them from the book or whatever. So we take great care with the people that write our books. Sometimes they leave, sometimes they usually they stay, we’ve only had two leave and like 30 years of authors, maybe three.
SJM (32:42):
But they’re all in good standing. Right. it’s a precarious balance that takes a lot of care and commitment and non-disclosures and privacy agreements and high trust. At the end of the day, you know, anybody can violate a non-compete and not be sued. At the end of the day, it’s your character to say, I hope, like I have modeled, I wanna build my brand independent of Franklin Covey not on the heels of their brand and not at the expense of their brand and never in spite of their brand. And I always want that company to serve well. And I think it’s why I’m still able to consult with them and earn a nice living with them because they know that I’m not trying to diminish their brand and I care passionate about what they do and who they are. We don’t agree on all decisions, but as I mentioned earlier, I think it’s the thing I’m second most proud of in life is that I’m able to not just peacefully coexist, but work well interdependently with them in the marketplace.
SJM (33:39):
Mm-Hmm.
RV (34:16):
That’s really cool too. I mean, they, they, you know, to what you’re saying about Dr. Covey and his humility in the first place, that became a culture of philosophy, the whole company that definitely it is really wonderful that there’s never that they’ve been able to reach the size and the magnitude of the impact and not have a lot of those kind of, you know, things going on at, you know, in a public, in a public sense of scandals and all of that. So well, tell us, tell us quickly about the new book. Tell us what you’re up to these days and would love to just hear a a little bit about that before we wrap up.
SJM (34:49):
Thanks. the book I just released from Harper Collins is called The Ultimate Guide to Great Mentorship book. They actually approached me, they thought that the space needed a very practical book on mentorship and had written several books for them called Master Mentors that are books based on the podcast that I host for them on leadership with Scott Miller. And I’m very pleased with the success of the book out of the gates, including a a robust keynote roster that I have coming up, usually about three a week in person right now. So I’m on the road a lot, which is tough ’cause my wife and I have three young sons. I have a new book behind Me in yellow coming out in February called Career on Course from Baker Up in Michigan. It’s 10 strategies to take your career from accidental to intentional. I have two more books in the queue that are will be coming out in, in 2025. That’s
RV (35:39):
A lot of books, man. You’re cranking out some books.
SJM (35:41):
I like to write books and speak because as you mentioned, I’m a talent agent. I co-own a fast growing, speaking literary and talent agent. So I like to know what my clients are going through. I like to know how to make a bestseller, how to build a brand, how to build a website, how to build your social media, how to build a speaking career, how to productize and monetize your intellectual property in a book into courses and certifications. No one’s making money on books, but Donald Miller, he’s making some money. Amy Porterfield’s making some money. They
RV (36:13):
Sell a lot of books if you,
SJM (36:14):
What’s that? If
RV (36:15):
You sell enough books, right.
SJM (36:17):
Enough books. But yeah, the book business is really about influencing people and being able to monetize it in ways through speaking in courses and things like that. And I like to write books so that I am relevant to the clients I represent. Mm-Hmm.
RV (36:29):
Mm-Hmm.
SJM (36:35):
Champagne Region of France. We can link up and hook up down there in southern France. No you can visit Scott Jeffrey Miller dot com. I like a good glass of champagne, bro. You can visit great mentorship.com. Love to have you follow me on any social platform to my wife’s who I’m on them all multiple times a day.
RV (36:55):
Mm-Hmm.
SJM (37:33):
There’s no shortcuts. There’s no such thing as overnight success. Hmm. There is overnight fame and it’s usually Ill-gotten and fleeting. But you look at the consistency behind people like Seth Godin, Dan Pink, Liz Wiseman, Susan Kane, Kim Scott, Rachel Hollis, Lewis Howes, Donald Miller, Amy Porterfield, on, on and on. These people were not overnight sensations. I met Amy Porterfield four years ago. We were both speaking at Rachel Hollis and Dave Hollis’s Thrive Business event in Charleston. I didn’t even know who Amy Porterfield was. She obviously was a big name in the, you know, entrepreneurship email world. I didn’t even know who she was. Look at her today. Amy Porterfield owns America. It’s like amazing. This did not happen overnight. Look at Donald Miller’s influence, right? It’s just Rachel Hollis a good friend of mine. I think it took her six books. She wrote six books until her book was finally in a bookstore and became a bestseller.
SJM (38:37):
You never heard of Rachel Hollis’s first six books? You gotta build your brand consistently, carefully find who your niche audience is. I think Seth Golden is a genius. I’m honored to be friends with him and have him endorse my books. He talks about this idea of this smallest viable market. I think most of us that have been to business school, we think about the total addressable market or the largest market. Know what is your fa, smallest, viable market? How few people can you build your business around? What are their names? What are the things I like most about Rachel at her peak? And I still, like Rachel had a rough couple years, I see her back on the rise. I’m a big Rachel Hollis fan is she knew exactly who her customer was. She knew what her name was, her age, her fears, her passions, her talents, her weaknesses, her traumas, her dramas. She knew exactly who her customer was. Like no one I’d ever met in my life. Focus on your smallest viable market and take your time. Dr. Covey spent 10 years writing the Seven Habits of Highly Effective People. He was 54 when that book became a bestseller. Take your time. It’ll come.
RV (39:48):
Wow. I love that. What a word. What a word. Well, Scott, Jeffrey Miller, it’s great to meet you. I’m so glad your team cold pitched me such an impressive career, amazing story. And we’ll be following you closely, man, and wishing you the best. You
SJM (40:05):
And I gonna have lunch in Nashville. I’m treating
RV (40:07):
Sounds good. I’m in for it. I’ll see you then in touch.
SJM (40:10):
Thanks for the platform, Rory. Nice meeting you.
Ep 420: Rethink Your Business Development Strategy to Grow Sales with Nikki Nash
AJV (00:02):
Hey everybody. Welcome to the Influential Personal Brand podcast. This is AJ Baden, one of your co-hosts today, and today is super sweet and special ’cause I get to connect with an old friend Nikki Nash. And I have to tell you guys this very quick story of Nikki could have so easily reached out to me to schedule this awesome interview today. But she got randomly pitched to me by some podcast company, and they came in, they were, I’m like, Nikki Nash, I must, I must be talking about a different Nikki Nash. And then when it was the same Nikki, I was like, I just so you guys know, I know this woman and you should not get credit for this
AJV (00:50):
So I am so excited to have Nikki on the show. But before I give her a formal introduction, I want everyone to know what we’re talking about today and why you need to stick around. So this should be appealing to anyone and everyone who is listening. And this is not an episode you want to miss if you would like to grow your business, because today we’re gonna be talking about how do you double your business in the next 12 to 18 months. And if you are that visionary, c e o or small business owner, like what are the core things, the key things that you should be doing to double your business? And then what are the five top must haves that seven figure business owners need to do must do to double your business? So there’s a theme here, which is growing and scaling your business, and how do you do that in a way that works for you?
AJV (01:44):
So if you fit in that category, stick around. You don’t wanna leave early, it’s gonna be awesome. Now, with that said, I will give you a quick formal introduction of the one and oh, Nikki Nash, and then we’ll actually get to the interview. But Nikki is a Hay House author. She’s a bestselling author of the book Market, your Genius, which everyone should pick up and give a whirl. She’s also the host of a top rated podcast bearing the same name Market Your Genius. So by the book, listen to the podcast. She’s also a renowned expert in crafting marketing strategies with a unique focus on empowering fast growing coaching and online companies. Most of you are in that category, so that’s why I am having her on the show today. But she also has a real specialty in helping drive a sustainable growth, which is the most important thing.
AJV (02:37):
This isn’t a go hard, you know, like, do or die. We’re going to do it at all costs, and then you’re gonna burn out. So how do you do it in a way that works and that is sustainable for you? So without further ado, Nikki, welcome to our show. Oh my goodness, thank you so much for having me. Oh, I’m so excited for you to get to share your genius with our audience. And so, all right, let’s just let’s start with the most compelling of all of these topics that you and I kind of went through, because I think everyone would kind of like to know how do you double your business in 12 to 18 months? So tell us, what are the secrets that we’re all missing? How do we do this?
NN (03:19):
I mean, the, the super simple answer is to have a really crystal clear strategy and focus, but the reality is, is that there are a couple of ways to grow your business really quickly. And one of them is the obvious. It’s like, bring on a bunch of new clients. That’s what a lot of people think about. They’re like, oh, I gotta market and get new leads and get new clients. But people often forget about the magic of your existing clients and past clients. And that’s honestly the fastest way to go, because the probability of selling to an existing client is 60% higher than selling to a new client. So if you can think about your existing clients, and there are kind of like three ways that they can help you if they can buy more, right? Like if you, if they’re already in a program and you have them buy a v i p day or buy a, a additional course or a session or something, then that’s bringing in more money pretty quickly.
NN (04:13):
If you have them stay longer in your programming, then wow, okay, then that’s having them spend more money with you over their lifetime. And the other piece that a lot of people don’t think about is if they can get their current clients to refer them new clients, right? Because when they have clients coming in, it’s just known that the referred clients end up staying longer and spending more money than clients that just come to you not from a referral. And so those are kind of the, the existing client’s magic. And what I usually do when someone wants to double their business is we sit down, we do the math, and we look at, okay, which is most likely going to happen in that timeframe? Is it, oh, you know, just dump more money on ads
AJV (05:06):
And cheaper
NN (05:07):
And cheaper. Oh my gosh. It just makes the money that you do spend on the front end or the time you spend on the front end have much higher r o i because it’s like, oh, I brought this client in with my blood, sweat, tears and money, but it’s actually bringing in way more money than it did, you know, last year or last month when you, when you focus on really getting the most out of your existing clients. Yeah.
AJV (05:30):
So I’d love to talk about each of those because I think each of those categories are like standalone opportunities to really go. It’s like, man, you could double your business with any one of these three categories that you kind of mentioned. So let’s start with the first one with selling to your existing clients, right? Which means you have to have more than one product offering, one service offering. So for the people who are listening that are going I only offer this one thing
NN (06:19):
Yeah, I mean, the easiest thing for me is to ask yourself, what are your clients really, really needing right now? Hmm. Like, do you have a group of them that are all saying, man, you know, aj I love building out my my focus and my personal brand, but I really could use some help with this TED Talk or TEDx I have coming up and I’ve gotta talk. And you’re, you already have these offers, you’re like, ah, no worries. I’m gonna bring a group of people together and teach them how to craft their their talk. Right? That could be something that you just add on because, you know, you have a bunch of clients that are having a similar pain point or asking for a similar request, and you can bring them together and just say, Hey, on this day, come in person, come virtually.
NN (07:01):
I’m gonna show you how to do this thing. Right? That’s easy. If there’s something you know your clients are struggling with, that’s naturally easy for you and you could bang it out in a few minutes, do that. Right? Like, I’ll give you an example for my business. A lot of clients come to me and say, Nikki, I know that I wanna create content, but I just can’t come up with ideas. I sit there by myself and I’ve got nothing. I sit and listen to people talk for five minutes, and I have a million ideas for what content they should be posting online. And so I just literally offer time with clients to sit down and I interview them, kind of like how we’re doing right now, as if it were a podcast interview, ask them a ton of questions about their expertise, and I just let my brain go with ideas, and I write them all down, and then I give it to them in a nice templated document that’s personalized for them. Here are your content prompts and your content ideas, bam. That’s just something additional. So really think, what do you cl what do your clients need? And what can you deliver easily? Whether it’s in a group, small group setting a one-on-one setting, a done for you type of thing. That’s honestly the easiest way to just add another offer in without blowing up your business model.
AJV (08:15):
Yeah. And it’s, you know, it’s so funny that you bring this up. ’cause I think about so many of the clients that we get to interact with at Brand Builders Group, and then also just friends who are in the industry like you of going, I think most of the time as a, you know, small to medium sized business owner, we just over overcomplicated. We think, oh, well, we need this whole new course, or we need this you know, this new funnel to support. And it’s like, no, you need like A P D F, that’s all you need, right? You need like a P D F or you need an email that you can send to people saying, this is this one new thing that I’m offering. Would you like to participate? What, what would you say? Like, have you seen a lot of clients or even in yourself, like how much weight or how much value do you think it carries to actually just ask your clients? It’s like, Hey, I’m thinking about offering some new services. What would appeal to you?
NN (09:11):
Yeah, I think that’s brilliant and not enough people do it because I, and I get it, there’s oftentimes when you’re the business owner, this feeling or pressure that you have to have it together and know what you’re offering and have everything mapped out perfectly before you speak to anybody about it. And honestly, the whole idea of just coming up with content prompts and in an interview style happened because I sat down with a friend who was struggling with content. I said, I could help her in five seconds, not literally five seconds, but you get what I mean, I did it for her. And she kept talking about how it’s the most valuable thing she’s ever received and how she looks at this piece of paper almost every day. Mm-Hmm. And I’m sitting there like, really? And I just started asking people, Hey, if I did something like this, would this be of value to you? And the number of people that said yes, because I struggle with it. And oftentimes business owners don’t realize what a gift they have, because for me, coming up with content ideas and content prompts, I can do all day every day, probably while I’m sleeping. So in my mind, I’m like, everybody can do that, but it’s not even sort of true. And so really take the time, ask people what is it that they need? What would be of huge value to them? And you never know what’s what’s gonna come out of it.
AJV (10:31):
Yeah. It’s like that old saying, one man’s trash is is another man’s treasure. And it’s like one woman’s genius is another woman’s frustration. And it’s like we all have these unique geniuses within us that someone else is like, this is the best thing I’ve ever seen. Like, it took me literally 10 minutes. I can’t even believe I charged you for this. Right? And it’s like, so I, I love that of going, I mean, how many of us as business owners don’t even pay attention to those little comments of like, this one thing changed my life? Because you take it for granted how easy it was for you to do. So like a big takeaway I kind of just wrote down is just as you’re delivering your products and services, like pay attention to asking questions like, what was the most impactful thing that you received?
AJV (11:23):
Like, what did you love most about this program or this experience? And then try to duplicate that in a fashion for others. I love that. Absolutely. Yeah. Right. And it’s such a great reminder, ju, just because it’s easy for you does not mean it’s easy for anyone else. And there is likely many people out there who would pay you to do the thing that you take for granted that you do for yourself. I love that. That’s so good. All right, so the next category retention, right? Yes. So yes. So not having to replace your clients and not constantly find new ones has everything to do with can you keep the ones you have? Can you keep ’em? So what do we need to know when it comes to retaining our customers? What do we need to be paying attention to? Yeah,
NN (12:06):
I mean, the first thing that I would say is to realize that you can retain your clients. I remember for myself, and I, I laugh so hard when I look back and picture myself going through this, but I remember the, one of my first clients on a coaching call said to me, oh, Nikki, I know our sessions are coming to an end and I just wanted to have a conversation with you about how we can keep working together. And I sat there and I’m like, you know what? I would love to do that. Why don’t we schedule a separate call? Because then we can talk through what that would look like so that we don’t use up your coaching session. But absolutely, I have a system and for working with clients longer, I did not, but I was like, oh, absolutely. Like we can keep working together.
NN (12:50):
NN (13:41):
AJV (14:55):
Yeah. I love that. There’s so many comments I have on this. Like, our internal mantra at Brand Builders Group for our membership community is utilization equals retention. If you’re, if they’re not using it, at some point they’re gonna say, why am I paying for this? And it’s like, our number one job is to ensure that one, you use it and two, that you get results from using it. I e you’re loving it, but if you don’t use it, then at some point, like there’s, they’re not gonna pay for it anymore. But it’s, you know, we talk about this all day long, up, down, and all around about the importance of step one. They cannot enjoy what they do not use. So they have to use it. And then we have to ensure that they love it beyond imagination, right? It’s the goal. But you said something in there around just language, and it made me think about being, you know, a former coach and consultant prior to brand builders group.
AJV (15:52):
Like, one of the things that was so challenging for me is, you know, I did all my own lead generation and marketing and sales sales. Then you get the client and it’s like, okay, now I have to mentally transfer from business development mode to, you know, quality content, quality value delivery mode. And then it’s like, at some point you gotta be like, no, you can’t really leave the sales part over there. The sales has to come along with you. So that you’re always reiterating, hey, like this is part one of our time together and this is the initial terms of our agreement. And let’s talk about continuity plans and a maintenance strategy. And you know, all of those words that once you transition from business development mode into delivery, you forget to use. ’cause You’re now, you’re so focused on providing value, but what I hear you saying is like, no, we, we gotta have that part of this into every single conversation so that you’re priming people to be with you way beyond those initial terms.
NN (16:53):
Absolutely. And most people think even if they have somewhere in their presentations or their group program or whatever it is, that they’re delivering a conversation about the next level, oftentimes it’s either too late or not frequently enough. Mm-Hmm.
NN (17:41):
And I’m like, whoa. People decide it’s way too late. Really, I believe those conversations should start in marketing. Like before they even swipe their credit card or, you know, transfer money, you should be having conversations about staying with you throughout a, a long-term relationship. And so I think that’s number one, but number two, get comfortable with speaking about it often and using those language like continuing to work with you or after this, after you hit this milestone, here’s what’s next for us. And speaking about that all the time just helps people know that they’re, you’re both in it to win it. It’s kind of like dating, right? Like, if you’re dating someone and in your mind you’ve planned your wedding and they’re just like, ah, let’s have some fun. It’s probably not gonna go well. So you wanna clearly communicate your marriage plans early on and make sure they’re comfortable with it before you even get to the wedding. Maybe not exactly like dating, but
AJV (18:39):
Yeah, I, I totally agree with that. It’s, you know, but I think the part of it is most people bring it up too late. Yeah. Right? And it’s like, it’s very similar to dating. Like, I, I, I had this nickname can’t believe I’m sharing this, but in college, my nickname was the one date Wonder. And it’s like, because I was like, if I don’t think I’m gonna marry you, I don’t need to go on a second date with you,
AJV (19:23):
And I was like, well, this is our last date. And he goes, what do you mean this is our last date? And I’m like, well, you’re not the one. So this is our last date. And it’s a little bit like that. If you don’t have those conversations early, it’s too late. And it’s like now it feels like you’re back in a sales conversation. And on the client end it’s like, okay, well that’s weird because, you know, I’ve been working with you for six months and we have this relationship. Now I feel like you’re selling me again when all you had to do was tell me from the beginning, Hey, this initial, this initial six months, here’s what we’re gonna be working on, and then we’ll talk about the next six months. If you set those expectations early, it never feels like I’m reentering a sales conversation. It always feels like, oh yeah, you told me, you told me that every single time we talked, and now here we are. So it’s like the more you talk about it, the easier it is.
NN (20:11):
Yeah. For both people. For both people.
AJV (20:13):
Yeah. I love that. All right. Now, now referrals, which I think in my opinion, most people just don’t do why they don’t do it is beyond me. ’cause I do it all. I do it way too much. I’m on the other end of the spectrum, but it’s like, I think people don’t know how to do it. So what I would love for you is to like, what’s the best way for people to go about getting referrals from their clients? Because I think that everyone knows that in theory they should be doing it, and yet they don’t. Yeah.
NN (20:44):
I think part step one is to really just in your d n A and in the company’s d n a, be comfortable and set that expectation and almost that mindset that our clients are gonna love us so freaking much, they’re gonna refer other people. And that this is a community where people just wanna bring their folks into. And you have to start there because I think so often, you know, business owners, you have so much going on. I’ve had early in my business, I obviously forgot to even retain my clients, let alone I stopped marketing. And I’ve been in marketing for like decades, and I like forgot to market while I was delivering. I just stopped marketing. So when you just forget, things go out of your mind. And so you wanna just put it back in there and set it as an expectation. Like, we get client referrals, our clients refer us.
NN (21:30):
And again, that’s a conversation that you can honestly start in the marketing. Like you, you can say things like, we’re so ex we’re so excited for you to join this community, and we wanna make sure that it’s such an amazing experience that you’re bringing your friends in. We want this to feel like a family. We want this to feel like a community. We want the, like you just talk about it. Yeah. And so you set that expectation of referrals from the beginning so that when you talk to your clients about it, it’s not weird, right? Yeah. Like
NN (22:15):
Some people have Facebook groups. So you can say things like, Hey, who is somebody who, you know, would get a lot of value out of our programming? Invite them into the Facebook group. Hey, we’re doing a challenge. Who can you share this with? Oh, the challenge is over, but we have the replays on a page. Mm-Hmm.
NN (23:01):
I I, I was like, I don’t know what I do.
NN (23:45):
Like if you are I’m gonna just weight loss and
AJV (24:49):
Totally, totally agree. And I think if people would simplify it, they would have more confidence in asking. But I’m actually so glad you brought up B N I, I don’t even know if B N I still exists, but if it does y’all should look it up. I should look it up. But if it does, if you feel really uncomfortable with this part of your business, that is a great place to like force yourself to learn and practice because everyone is voluntarily signing up and paying to be a part of a group where we’re doing this together. And I remember I was a part of it a really long time, and it was like, it’s, it’s like Toastmasters to me where it’s like you go to Toastmasters, if you’ve ever heard of that, to practice public speaking in a safe environment, right? It’s like the circle of trust.
AJV (25:37):
You can be really bad at this in here so that you get better for out there. I feel like that’s how b n I is for asking for referrals. And it creates a, a forced environment where everyone has to stand up and you practice and then it gets a little easier and you practice them more and it gets a little easier because everyone is doing it together. So I don’t know if that still exists, but it was so good for me in my early business years to give me the accountability and a safe arena of going, I can suck at this. It’s okay, because everyone’s like, it’s okay. Just keep going
AJV (26:28):
And it’s, it’s like, I, I just remember I was doing a volunteer volunteer, but a complimentary like mastermind for my girlfriend who runs this sales mastermind, and she wanted me to come in and talk, talk about asking for referrals, and I was like, yeah, can do that. And a part of my surprise training is lots of role play. And it’s like, I can only teach you so much until we’re just gonna need to do it together. So this lady volunteered and she didn’t know she was volunteering for role play. And as you were talking, it made me think like this, my mind immediately went here is I said, all right, now I need you to ask me for a referral. So just do whatever you normally do. And she goes, well I am looking to talk to anyone who wants to experience I think she said rapid weight loss. I think it was rapid. And I paused and I said,
NN (27:18):
I
AJV (27:18):
Know lots of people like, who doesn’t wanna experience rapid weight loss? Like, and she was like, well, who are they? I’m like, but I don’t know which one is good for you. Like who? Exactly. It’s like my mind goes everywhere versus if you go, no, I’m looking for a woman in their forties to fifties who has struggled with you know, obesity for most of her adult life who’s tried every diet under the planet and cannot seem to lose the weight. Maybe there’s a medical issue maybe there’s a mental issue, but it is the person who has chronic obesity that does not know what to do. And they tried to solve this for decades, then I was like, I know two people, right? And it’s like, but that, that’s our work to do. That’s not our client’s job. That’s our job. So my question back to you is for everyone listening, what should people do to get that clear? Like what, what work or exercises do they need to do to go, all right, now I know who, so now I can go ask.
NN (28:18):
Yeah, I mean, if you already have clients, the first thing I would do is sit down and go, who are the clients that you love working with that are getting results? Like you’re actually helping them? And that if you could clone them, you would Right? And then get really clear on why, why is that person so clone? What were the qualities about them? Was it where they are before or where they were before they started working with you? Is it their age? Is it the size of their business? You know, what is it that made them so magical that you’d want to clone them? And if you are just getting started and you don’t have clients yet, the cool thing is, is that you’re kind of making it up. So it’s really a hypothesis. And you’re saying you wanna be really specific. Oftentimes when people are getting started, you’re like, oh, I just want people, so I’ll take anybody.
NN (29:07):
But the more specific you can be with your educated guess hypothesis where you’re like, who do you think you can help? If it’s someone who is just like you, then describe yourself before you solve the problem that you’re helping them solve, right? If it’s someone like a client that you had when you worked in another job and it’s similar, then describe that company or person, right? But you wanna come up with a hypothesis that’s really clear and detailed. You don’t need to know like that they’ve lived in a specific spot or, or certain things, unless you have a local business, but you want something so that someone can go, ah, I know exactly who you’re talking about, because I could picture that person in my mind.
AJV (29:47):
I love that. It’s so good. And again, it’s like, in my opinion, the key to growing your business or really scaling your business, not just growing it without adding expenses, is you gotta learn to be a master of getting referrals. Yes. I mean, that’s the cheapest, fastest, most awesome way to grow your business because it’s the quickest turnaround time and you’ve got internal advocates selling on your behalf, which are your existing clients. What better way to do that? Yeah. so all right, well I know that we’re
NN (30:58):
Yeah. So if you wanna double your business, the first thing that I would say that a visionary c e o needs to be focused on, and this is really whether you have a big team or a small team or no team, you have to be clear on where the business is going, right? Like we just listed out a ton of ideas in a ton of ways, right? Which are you going to focus on? Are you gonna focus on selling more to your existing clients? Are you gonna focus on client referrals? Are you gonna focus on you know, having clients stay longer and retaining them? Are you gonna focus on bringing in new clients? Because maybe you don’t have a large existing client pool, but you have to choose the path
NN (31:41):
And that level of clarity is so important for every person that touches your business. Even if it’s a volunteer, a va, you know, your child who’s helping you with social media or a big team. But you wanna have crystal clear clarity on where the business is going for the next 12, you know, or 18 months and the general pathway that you’re using to get there. Or if you have a a definite plan, then the plan to get there at knowing that it may have to shift and adjust as you’re implementing. But that’s number one, if you don’t have clarity on where you’re going and the direction that you’re going in, like how you’re getting there, you’ll end up just trying everything under the sun and not moving anywhere.
AJV (32:21):
Yeah, just even like with the three things we talked about, we started with like, those are three standalone components. It’s like, don’t do all of ’em at the same time. Pick like, what’s my strategy we’re going after? Have the plan, know what, you know, it’s like, what do they say? It’s like always start with the end in mind. Yes. It’s like you gotta know where you’re headed so you can figure out the path to get there. Not that
NN (32:45):
Sleeping cubbies habit number two, it’s my favorite one,
AJV (32:48):
NN (33:11):
So
NN (34:04):
And you may really need to sit down and go, okay, where is the biggest growth opportunity coming from? Right? Is it selling a $97 program where you might need to sell thousands or millions of them to double your business? Or do you have something that’s higher ticket that you need? Fewer people, but if you can get the right people, bam, you’re doubling your business. And so you need to know who the heck you’re selling to, right? So super clear offer, super clear person, target audience for that offer. And then you need to have a really clear message and positioning for that offer so that the person knows why they need it, especially if it’s a new offer for your existing clients or if they’re staying longer, why they need to stay longer in this thing, right? Or if it’s referral, why they need to refer other people to it, like what’s in it for them. But your messaging has to be clear. And I wanna like sit with that one for a second because I think so many people are like, my thing’s not selling my thing’s, not selling it must be the thing. And oftentimes it’s the person that you are selling to still has no idea what it is that you’re selling.
AJV (35:16):
I mean, I cannot second that enough. Like I second that 1000 times. And because we both live in this industry and the business of doing what we do, I cannot tell you how often when someone tries to explain to me what they do, I go, I don’t know what that is. I don’t know what that means. And I think one of the things that I have discovered from just doing this as long as I have, is that they actually don’t know either. They haven’t done the hard work to go, this is actually the problem that what I do solves and this is how it solves it. And so they struggle to articulate it because they think it solves 10 problems and you can’t explain 10. You have to explain one. And the other thing I’ve run to, I don’t know if you run into this, is people try to start being catchy and clever and you know, trendy and cheeky instead of just being clear.
NN (36:20):
And oftentimes it’s like, oh, that sounds cool, but I still don’t know what you do. Like you need to speak to people like they are five years old. Mm-Hmm.
AJV (37:31):
That’s good. Simplify. I love
NN (37:34):
It. Simplify
AJV (37:38):
I love
NN (37:39):
That. Yeah. And then the other thing that I would say tied to the tips just because this comes up often is sometimes people think they know who their target audience is because that’s either who’s purchased from them in the past or who they have a big audience of or who they want to help. But that doesn’t necessarily mean they’re the perfect person for their offer, right? Like I have a client who has an amazing dashboard for helping entrepreneurs truly know their numbers and make decisions based off of their numbers. That stuff is way too complicated for the people that she’s been selling it to. Like they get it when she’s, they’re in her program and she’s training and developing them, but when I was at that level, I didn’t have, and I mean I looked at numbers, but not like that. This is for someone who has alar like Team
NN (38:34):
And so, so even if you’ve had some success selling something to someone, it doesn’t mean they’re the perfect person for it. So you really need to hone in on like who is truly the perfect person for this offer, right? So the offer, the person, the message, and then you really, if you wanna double your business, you need a simple strategy. What’s the game plan? Keep it super, super simple,
NN (39:22):
And the the last piece really comes down to tracking everything and being flexible with how you go about things, right? So if you sell something, if you, I’m gonna just use the, have existing clients buy more strategy. If you have an offer that you’re putting in front of clients and not a lot of people buy it, then don’t be afraid to go back to your clients and ask them, Hey, you know, I noticed only a few of you took this, took me up on this offer. The ones who did ask them why they did, the ones who didn’t ask them why they didn’t, maybe it was that you didn’t market it well to the people that are in your program. Maybe they didn’t understand the value of it. Maybe it wasn’t exactly what they needed and what they needed was something else. Bam, then offer that next time, right? Like, I think too often people give up too soon. And so the fifth way, if you really wanna double your business, it’s, you just have to keep going and keep trying and keep tweaking what it is that you’re doing. And then you’ll figure out what the formula is. There’s no perfect formula that you can have on paper before you get started. It’s a building the machine while you’re on the machine riding the machine down the road type of thing. It’s like, oh my God, build the car,
AJV (40:40):
You know, it’s so true. It’s like, yeah, it’s, it reminds me of that analogy that someone’s like being an entrepreneur is like jumping off a cliff and trying to build an airplane on your way down, right? It’s like, it’s a little bit like that. But you know what I love about every one of these, and I’m just gonna recap these for everyone. It’s, you have to have clarity on your offer, clear on who the offer is for, you gotta have a clear message on that offer. You have to have a simple strategy that you can follow, and then a way to track report and get feedback to make sure it’s working. And what I love about all of that is it’s simple, right? It does not have to be complex. We’re not trying to make it complex. We’re trying to make it usable, doable and you need to do the same thing for your clients, which is know what your offer is, know who it’s for, make sure you have clarity on the message for it. Make sure you have a way to actually go after it. And then a way to track and get feedback. And it’s, it’s one of those things where it’s like the, it feels too easy to be true and most good things in life are and we as humans overcomplicate everything because we think that in order for it to be amazing and be smart, it has to be complex when the smartest things and the best things are usually the easiest, simplest things in the world.
NN (41:54):
Absolutely.
AJV (41:56):
Nikki, this has been awesome. I know that we are out of time and it’s like I could probably spend another hour just talking, just like random strategy with you. If people want to stay in touch with you, where should they go? Yeah,
NN (42:08):
I mean, the easiest place to go is to just go to nikki nash.co. That’s my website and it links to literally anything that is right for you at this moment, whether it’s getting access to my podcast or my book or, or working with me in one of my programs. So I highly recommend just go into the website, keep it simple.
AJV (42:28):
Yeah. So everyone, it’s Nikki Nash co. And she’s got an awesome offer on her website with a free masterclass. So we’ll put that link in the show notes. And Nikki, if they wanna follow you on social media, what’s your preferred platform?
NN (42:43):
Ooh, okay. I am currently getting really into LinkedIn, so I’m gonna say hit me up on LinkedIn. It’s really easy, like once you do the whole LinkedIn and the slash in
AJV (43:02):
I’ll, I’ll grab that specific link, throw it in the show notes so everyone can go connect with you on LinkedIn check out your content and then go to Nikki nash.co. Nikki, love you. So happy that you were on the show. Everybody else stick around for the recap and I will see you next time on the influential personal brand.
Ep 418: How to Negotiate with Narcissists with Rebecca Zung
RV (00:00):
RZ (01:33):
Thank you. I, you were actually one of my favorite people, is you are so brilliant. I’m really actually in awe of you, so thank you. Thank you for having me.
RV (01:43):
Yeah, well, thanks Fran. And I
RZ (01:45):
Don’t say that actually very easily. Let me just tell you that it’s, it’s, I, I don’t suffer fools very easily, so I have to tell you, I’m really, really impressed by you.
RV (01:57):
Well, thank you. Thank you. Well, and I genuinely am impressed by you. I mean 40 million plus views on YouTube, several hundred thousand followers on Instagram and social. You’ve built this, this massive email list, you know, well into the six figures and hundreds of thousands of followers on Facebook. You know, but you know, before all of that, you were a true expert. I mean, you’re just like the, the epitome of who we like to work with, that brand builders group, this, this person with deep expertise who really solves a problem in the world. And I have to tell you, and, and my very first question I want to ask you about is such a fundamental question, which is how do you define a narcissist? Because honestly, that term wasn’t even on my radar until I met you. And then, you know, I started following you and like seeing all the stuff and going, wow, so many people are resonating with your content. So apparently there’s a lot of narcissists out there in the world, and, you know, maybe my eyes are just being open to that. So can you like start there and, and tell us what that is?
RZ (03:04):
Yeah, I actually wouldn’t have been able to define it myself either, even though, you know, I probably came a across a lot of them in my practice and even in my personal life as well. So the way I like to define it is, is really in layman’s terms, and in my book, of course, I, I give the DSM five and all of that because I, I, you know, I felt like I needed to, which is what the professionals, the mental health professionals use. But I like to use layman terms because I think it’s easier for all of us to understand. And, and it is a, a spectrum. And, and so if you go all the way to the end of the spectrum, there is a legitimate personality disorder there sitting at the end of the spectrum, which is narcissistic personality disorder. But obviously as you get closer and closer toward the end of the spectrum, you’re gonna get closer and more and more and more of, of the characteristics, right?
RZ (04:00):
And all of us, of course, have some characteristics of being narcissistic at times, and there is a healthy version of narcissism, by the way, too. Interesting. Okay. Yes. Yeah. So, but what narcissism is, is a person who has no feeling of, of value, and I say they don’t feel valuable because obviously all human beings are inherently valuable, but they don’t feel any sense of internal value. And so what they do is they go around trying to get feelings of value from external sources. And so the way it’s described is narcissistic supply, and that’s the, what everybody call refers to it as is narcissistic supply. What I have done is actually tier that and, and, and tier it into diamond level supply and coal level supply. So they, they get this, you know, external diamond level supply from anything in, in how they look. So it could be big houses, impressive friends, lots of money, all the things that you think of as the best things of how they look to the world, you know, puffing themselves up by making themselves look good.
RZ (05:25):
And then there’s what I call the dark underbelly of narcissistic supply, which is put, you know, making themselves feel better by pushing other people down. Mm-Hmm. Which is degrading people, controlling people, manipulating people, making other people squirm. So that’s what I call coal level supply. But what they do is they, they suck you dry of energy because they’re trying to make themselves feel better, but it’s a black hole and it can never be filled. So you are left feeling totally and completely depleted, yet they’re still starving and, and it, they’re like desperate for air, gasping for breath, and it’s, it’s scarcity to the utmost extreme. And it can never be healed. And it can never be, you know you know, it’s like a salve that they’re trying to put on themselves and they can never get enough. And so you are there and, and, and feel totally compl depleted. They’re still starving, and, and there’s this black hole and it’s goes on and on and on and on. And, and that’s why they have no empathy. That’s why they have no empathy. It’s like they’re in pain all the time, and it’s deep shame.
RV (06:47):
Interesting. And so that’s, that’s part of the characteristic is no empathy for others because they’re just consumed with basically trying to satisfy this, this void, which is impossible for them to fill with external stuff, which is impossible for them to fill.
RZ (07:03):
Correct. Uhhuh
RV (07:05):
RZ (07:18):
Did she have the pink Cadillac?
RV (07:20):
She never got the pink Cadillac. She did have the, the red Grand Am for a minute, for like a hot minute. Oh, okay. So she did it more of like a side hustle than like a career, but I still learned a lot of like, personal development principles from sort of being around like the Mary Kay culture and the events and stuff that she had. But anyways, can you take, tell us, like, I’m curious, how did you become one of these top attorneys? And, and you know, you’ve been on Extra, and I know you’ve had like, some very high profile like divorce cases that you used to be involved in. And I know you’re, you’re, you’re still like a partner in your firm, but like, how did you, how did you get into all of this stuff? Like, tell us your personal story.
RZ (08:03):
Well, interestingly enough you know, I’m actually first generation Chinese on my dad’s side and second, second generation German on my mom’s, you know, I’m so half Chinese and half German. So I, I always joke that I have no fun genes whatsoever.
RV (08:56):
Devastated. I mean, nine, you dropped outta college, got married at 19 and had three kids, and you’re 22 years old. Mm-Hmm.
RZ (09:04):
RV (09:36):
Were on your own, you were an adult, you were out there on your own,
RZ (09:38):
You’re done, we’re done. You know, or no, I used say this was the nineties by this, this time, it was the nineties. And so they were like, okay, you know, you can do whatever you’re gonna do. And so I got divorced and went back to law school. This is definitely in the nineties already at this point. And I, I met my husband in law school, and we you know, still in my twenties at this point, right. And, and we have now been married for 23 years, and we have a 20, 21 year old daughter. And I, you know, at, but that point, I mean, I, I still made law review. I went to University of Miami Law School at night, and I mean, they don’t even have a night program anymore. I mean, so, you know, it was a crazy time in my life.
RZ (10:38):
It was crazy. And so we you know, I, I ended up starting at a law firm where the partners were, you know, top family law attorneys in the country. Okay. You know, my, my, they were both members of the academy, the international academy. My, one of the partners that I worked for she had been, you know, president of the American Bar Association for the, the country. And, you know, so I just, that’s where I started, you know, and, and high net worth family law is a very, very specialized area of the law. You have to know, you know, tax law, estate planning, law, business law, you know, trust law. I mean, there’s, it’s a very, very high you know, highly specialized area of the law. So that’s where I started right from the beginning. And I came up through, through that.
RZ (11:40):
They, they retired. I ended up starting my own practice and continued on, you know, I was in Naples, Florida, which is a very affluent area. At one point, when I had my daughter, I stopped and I ended up going to Morgan Stanley for a few years. I did wealth planning there for a little while, just like two years. And I had my series seven in 66 for a little while. And then I went back and, and had my own practice. And then just, you know, I wrote my first book in 2013. I had John Gray actually wrote the four, or he wrote an endorsement for me. And from there, I actually started to get some television work. I started doing, you know, T M Z, and, you know, some things like that. And that was when I started to think, you know, maybe I wanna do something a little bit more entrepreneurial.
RZ (12:36):
You know, it was like I didn’t have to even step outside my firm anymore to do any networking. You know, it was like hamster wheel, you know, from my practice. And I just started to feel like you know, let me do something else. So in 2017, I merged my practice with two other guys who were both members of the Academy of Matrimonial Lawyers, and my husband and I moved to Los Angeles, and I was going back and forth, and we started, I, that was when I started learning about funnels. And I just started like teaching myself some things. And I got involved with this other person at that time who turned out to be a narcissist. And that’s when I started to,
RV (13:25):
In the business
RZ (13:27):
Not, she wasn’t a, you know, it wasn’t a law firm. No. But it was an entrepreneurial endeavor that, you know,
RV (13:37):
And so that’s when you really started diving in specifically to negotiating with narcissists. ’cause I think as I think about the people listening to this show, I think you go, you know, you might be negotiating fees with clients, you could be negotiating customer service issues with like, people trying to like, cancel or get a refund. You could be negotiating something with a business partner, right. In terms of we hear a lot of those stories, right? A lot of our clients have had very tumultuous, tumultuous, we’ll say, separations from business partners and joint ventures and things like that.
RZ (14:19):
And yeah, well, I had, I ended up having that. I mean, I ended up having that, you know mm-hmm.
RV (14:59):
But you, basically, the short of it is you had this experience where suddenly you were tied up with a narcissist. And I guess ultimately what I, what I would, what I’d love to hear is how do, so how do you negotiate with the narcissist? Like yeah. Knowing, knowing now what some of their characteristics are and why, which is super helpful to understand the reason they are the way they are is because they’re starving. They’re searching for basically love and importance and to feel valued. And that’s a really scary place to go, oh, you know, nothing I can do is ever gonna make them feel that way. So they continue going, which means I’m gonna constantly feel drained. So, you know, I always feel like when I think about negotiation and the way that I approach negotiation, like, I don’t think of negotiation as a battle. I’ve always thought about negotiating. I think of negotiation as collaborating and going, how do I help you get what you want, and you help me get what we want? And we all, we all win together. But if somebody doesn’t have empathy, if they don’t care, they go, I have zero interest in helping you get what you want. That, you know, how do you, how do you negotiate with that person?
RZ (16:08):
Yeah. And therein lies your problem right there. So right behind me, I’ve got a book that I wrote called Negotiate Like You Matter. Robert Shapiro wrote the Fore. And, and in that book, I talk about how both sides wanna feel, seen, heard, and know that they matter. And if you don’t walk away with both sides getting some amount of value out of it, the deal’s gonna fall apart. And I have participated in thousands and thousands and thousands of negotiations, and I know what it takes to get a deal to stick. Okay? Here’s the problem, when you’re dealing with a narcissist, okay, let me explain something about how a narcissist ha was formed. And this is actually was, it blew my mind when I was doing the research for this book.
RZ (17:02):
How a narcissist was formed during childhood is actually a result of trauma to the brain. So when we are dealing with trauma as adults or as human beings, we are presented with when we’re, you know, feeling like we are under fire. We feel like we need to fight or, or flee, right? Fight or flight. And when that happens, our brains emit chemicals to allow us to prepare to be strong or to run faster. So it’s adrenaline or whatever it is. Right. You know, to, to be able to, you know, so it’s the sweat glands go and all of that. Mm-Hmm.
RV (17:52):
Cortisol, all that stuff.
RZ (17:53):
Yeah. Cortisol, all of that. Exactly. So when that happens on a continuous basis though, it actually can start to cause damage within the limbic system of the brain, especially for children. And it can actually cause arrested development to that area of the brain. And what that is called is called narcissistic injury. And when that happens for a narcissist as they grow, while the prefrontal cortex of the brain, which is the thinking area of the brain, can continue to develop that limbic system, part of the brain as it continues to, as they grow when they’re presented with situations where they feel like they need to be back in survival mode again. And it doesn’t mean it’s rational to you, it means it’s rational to them or reasonable. So it could be an eye roll, it could be a tone, it could be anything, anything where they feel slighted or they feel like they need to, to be back in there and they’re triggered, then that narcissistic injury is triggered, and that limbic system comes back into play and takes back over. And now you’re not dealing with rational, now you’re not dealing with reasonable anymore. You’re dealing with that limbic system, part of their brain. And what I learned in my research is that sometimes they don’t even remember what they have done during that period of time. And what happens is it’s actually called splitting, meaning
RV (19:47):
Phenomen, they don’t remember or what happened to ’em when they were young, or meaning they don’t remember the irrational stuff, what they’ve done, stuff they did to you,
RZ (19:53):
They’ve what they’ve done to you. Okay.
RV (19:55):
Wow. And
RZ (19:55):
Yeah. And it’s, it’s actually phenomenon called splitting. And so they actually, they actually will say, I didn’t do that. That didn’t happen. We didn’t have that conversation. That’s not how it went. And, and so, you know, you’re not dealing with rational, you’re not dealing with reasonable. And, and so here’s the other issue. Here’s the other issue with that. These narcissistic people, narcissists not, you know, they are, let me go back to this other conversation that we started with, which is the narcissistic supply conversation. Remember that conversation we had, right? Yep. We’re, okay. So when you were having this conversation about where do we wanna go with this? Most people think, well, narcissists just wanna win, right? They wanna win, they wanna look good, they wanna be come out the winner. That’s not necessarily true. That only takes into account one form of supply. And that’s diamond level supply.
RZ (21:06):
It totally discounts and forgets about coal level supply, which is manipulating you, seeing you squirm, making you sw sweat, controlling you. They love that too. They need that too. And so when you’re dealing with them in a negotiation, both things are at play constantly. And they don’t even realize that sometimes. Sometimes it’s, it’s actually subconscious on their part. And so you are sitting there going, well, how can we rationally and reasonably come to a conclusion here? How can we figure out a resolution? The, the very question that you asked at the outset of this is what a rational and reasonable person would ask. But that is not the question that they’re asking. So what your motivation is, and what their motivation is, is completely different. When you sit down at the table, totally different. Their motivation is, I, I wanna control you. I wanna see you squirm. I enjoy seeing you sweat. I enjoy manipulating you. And so they will gameplay, they’ll constantly move goalposts, they’ll change their own deal. You’ll come back and say, I accept every single one of your points. And they’ll say, oh, deal’s already switched. It’s already changed. ’cause You took too long because I don’t like your face anymore, because you parted your hair on a different side today.
RV (22:47):
Yeah. That’s so frustrating. I mean, it’s so frustrating. Like, and so, so you have this acronym slay, which is sort of like, okay, so if you’re in this situation, and that’s super insightful. I’ve been in this situation before to go, what they really wanna do is not only win, they want to bury you. They want to like, they want to hurt. You just
RZ (23:09):
Bury, you
RV (23:10):
Just play with you. Like, they just want thank you, you to, to feel, they want you to feel awful and horrible. And, you know, controlling is the word. Like, they’re able to to control you, so
RZ (23:21):
They’ll take themselves down to take you down.
RV (23:25):
Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. That’s fascinating. So then what do you do? Is that what Slay is about, is slay basically what, what you’re supposed to do to deal with all this. Yeah. ’cause This is very discouraging and very, like, what you’re describing is so real. It’s like, you know,
RZ (23:42):
That’s why what I do works, but that’s why what I do works. That’s why I literally have thousands of testimonials from people who said, I’ve saved their lives. That’s why what I do works. That’s why I have 40 million views on YouTube.
RV (23:58):
Yeah, yeah. Is
RZ (23:58):
What I, what I do works, because I understand this. And
RV (24:02):
So talk us through slay, like, walk us through that. Yeah.
RZ (24:05):
Yeah. So strategy, leverage, anticipate, and focus on you. So strategy is you have to have a vision. You have to understand where you’re gonna go. You have to have a G P S, you have to, you know, because you’re on the offensive, I mean, you’re on the defensive so much when you’re dealing with these people that you’re just like, oh my God, I I can’t think anymore. I’m paralyzed. I’m, I’m powerless. I can’t, I cannot think. And most of the time when people are at the other end of this, they have cognitive dissonance. They have C P t, SS d, they, you know, they can’t think straight anymore. So the first thing you gotta do is know where you’re gonna go and have a very specific vision about it. Right? You talk about so beautifully about, you know, having a, a, a thought conceive, believe, achieve, knowing where you wanna go, make it specific, same principle, right? Understanding where you’re gonna go, have a very specific vision. So that’s number one. Then creating that action plan, that’s all part of my strategy. Having an action plan, knowing exactly where you’re gonna go.
RV (25:07):
So, and does that mean knowing what you want? Is that what you mean by just being clear of like, this is what I want to have happen? Yeah. At the end of this?
RZ (25:15):
Yeah. I mean, so many times when I ask people what it is that you want, the first thing they’ll say is, I just want them to leave me alone. I just want it to stop. I just, that’s not a want. Mm-Hmm.
RV (25:26):
RZ (25:27):
You know
RV (25:28):
You’re saying like, specific outcomes that you document that you go, here’s what a win, here’s what a win in this scenario looks like for me. And just getting the first step is getting clear on that yourself,
RZ (25:41):
Getting clear on that yourself. At the end of this partnership, I wanna take over my company, I wanna buy them out. Here’s how much I think the company is worth, you know, whatever it is. Or I, I want them to buy me out, or I want, you know, the company needs to be sold, or, you know, what’s the specific outcome for you? Mm-Hmm.
RZ (26:27):
And many people wanna go straight to leverage. You can’t have leverage. You can’t get to that point unless you’ve developed a strategy first. Okay? You need to know what’s motivating these people. So here’s your, your diamond level supply versus your coal level supply. So, so diamond level supply, what’s most important to them, what is most important to them? And, and you know, how, as far as what they look like to the world, it’s gonna be different for every narcissist. But, you know, it’s basically every narcissist has something that, you know, is, you know, most important to them as far as how they look in the world. That’s gonna be the most important to them. And they will protect and defend that at any cost, at any cost. That diamond level supply, they will hang onto that more importantly and most preciously than anything. And that’s the thing that you have to threaten.
RZ (27:27):
You have to threaten a source of supply that’s more important for them to keep than the supply that they get from jerking you around and then, and then threaten that source of supply. But you can’t actually take away that source of supply, because if you do, then your leverage is gone, obviously. All right? And so, and then you’ve gotta come up with like 40 different ways that you kind of like have the guns pointing at it, you know, so what does that look like? Summary of their lies, an inconsistent statements, or, you know, potentially, you know, deposing, I call it deposed to expose, you know, so potentially deposing their new source of supply, you know, their new paramore maybe, or their new business partner, or all of the people in their new company, or, because, you know, when you, a lot of times you’re breaking up in a partnership, they go to take half the clients with them.
RZ (28:23):
So, you know, are you gonna go depose all the new clients? Are you gonna, what are you gonna do in order to potentially expose them and have this conversation? I call it ethically manipulating the manipulator. These are all very legal things that you can do. I’m not talking about blackmail, I’m talking about things that you can do. These aren’t, but, you know, these are offensive strategies. Most of the time when you’re on the other end of a narcissist, you’re a, you’re an empathic person. You’re a person that goes, ah, I don’t wanna have to do that. It seems cringey to you. You don’t wanna do that, then I hope you enjoy the, you know, being a, you know, on the other side of a steam roller, because that’s what’s gonna happen to you. You have to be offensive when you’re dealing with this, because, you know, they have to feel like the hammer is gonna get dropped on them, you know?
RZ (29:21):
And then a is anticipate, anticipate what the narcissist is gonna do, and be two steps ahead of them. What are they gonna do? Well, first of all, there’s three different types of narcissists that I like to, you know, sort of talk about, which is covert, overt, and malignant. They each act differently in negotiations. And in my book, I talk about how they act because they’re each different, which is, you know, we can’t really get into all of that right here as it’s kind of long. But, you know, they do act differently in negotiations. But the one thing I do wanna talk about here, just briefly, is that they are going to try to trigger you. They are going to try to get under your skin. So you have to stand firm, you have to stay calm, don’t take the bait, don’t go, don’t allow them to go fishing, and you end up with a hook in your mouth.
RZ (30:18):
You know, like, don’t defend yourself. Don’t explain, don’t justify. They’re gonna say stuff to you like, oh, you’re you know, like for you, Rory, you are a person who prides himself on being, you know, a person of integrity, a person who’s honest, a person who does what he says he’s gonna do when he says he’s gonna do it. So for you, what would be the first thing you’re gonna do? You are dishonest. Mm-Hmm.
RV (31:12):
And make you squirm. That’s the, like, what can I do to just like, control you and manipulate you and see you just be completely off kilter? Yeah. yeah. That’s amazing. And when you say, don’t, you know, like, don’t defend yourself. I mean, so this is, I’ll, I’ll share this. One, one of the very, like, the very first time that I was in like a real lawsuit, and this is like a piece of legal advice that, that I, I wish somebody would’ve told me, like, the one thing I wish somebody would’ve told me was don’t read their letters. Like, I read, I read their letters and it was like, this letter is outrageous. This is a flat out lie. This is un like, unbelievable. How are they even saying this? And it’s like, that’s the point of the letters. Yes.
RZ (32:18):
Go through this. And they always come at four o’clock on Fridays, by the way,
RV (32:22):
RZ (32:34):
Right. That’s why I say anticipate what they’re gonna do. Mm-Hmm. And, and don’t defend yourself. Never explain, never justify, you know,
RV (32:43):
Honestly,
RZ (32:43):
Pretend like you’re reporting in the news.
RV (32:46):
Yep. Once you ha, once you have the perspective, you go, oh my gosh, this is hilarious. Like, it’s such a predictable, immature, like what would somebody that just, just to, just for no other reason to try to hurt you, and you’re like, oh my gosh. Like, it’s yeah. So that’s interesting. And not justifying, like if you’re justifying you’re win, they are winning, you’re doing exactly what they want. If you’re defending yourself, you’re, you’re doing exactly what they want to do.
RZ (33:11):
Exactly.
RV (33:13):
Fascinating. Okay. So is that, so that’s anticipate, that’s
RZ (33:16):
A, yep. And then, and then y is the you. And so I, I split you into two sections, which is you staying on the offensive, which I, you know, just sort of addressed a moment ago. And then y the other part of why is a hundred percent of winning is, is your mindset. And, and you, and you alone define your value. And you know, I used to say 80% of winning was your, was your mindset. And then I interviewed Bob Proctor and he corrected me on my own podcast. I will have to tell you
RZ (34:17):
And then I decided, yeah, a friend of mine was leaving Naples and decided to give me her law practice. Basically. She was like, I have a, you know, about, I don’t know, it was like 15 clients or something. And she’s like, I have these clients. I’m gonna just basically dump ’em in your lap and you can, you know, start a law practice with them. And I was like, okay, nobody’s ever gonna be giving me a law practice ever. So I, this is my chance to start a practice. And so I did that, and I had a business coach at the time who’s still somebody I go back to often, and she’s one of my very best friends and one of the smartest people I know on the planet. And I said to her, I said, oh, I’m so worried that the people of Naples are gonna think that I’m such a flake that, you know, she was a lawyer first and now she’s back.
RZ (35:11):
She was a, a financial person and she’s back to being a lawyer. And I, I was so nervous that the people of Naples were gonna think I was such a flake. And she said, people will think what you tell them to think. She said, you can tell them to think that you’re a flake, or you can tell them to think that you are the only F law attorney in town that has, has a financial background, so therefore you are actually more qualified than any other family law attorney in town. Which story would you like to tell?
RV (35:49):
Hmm.
RZ (35:51):
And I said, oh, maybe I’ll tell that story
RV (36:59):
Mm-Hmm.
RZ (38:02):
Yeah, I have two answers for that. So one is, and that’s a great question by the way. I love that question. So I have a couple of different ways that I go into in the book for that. One is that I tell people that they can either and, and it kind of depends on what’s going on in their situation, but, so if there’s something that they want from them, for example, I, I tell them that they can use a tactic that I call fluff or favor vomit later
RZ (39:01):
You’re so much better at it than I am. And it’ll be done so much faster if you do it. You’re so much more efficient at it, you know, and, and you know, something like that. And, and, and you just, you make sure you don’t say anything good about yourself or anything like that. No tone. Because I always say narcissists hear tones, like dogs hear whistles. Like even if there’s no tone, they hear tone. So, you know and then, you know, I always say, if you have to go shower or vomit later, that’s fine, but, you know, get them to do something for you. So fluff or favor vomit later. So that’s one thing. The other thing is that I say you know to, to use, it’s wise to use the element of surprise. So, you know, never let on what it is that it, that you’re up to, what it is that your leverage is nothing.
RZ (39:58):
You know, I would act like they’re winning. I would act like you don’t know what’s going on. I mean, even till the very end, I mean, I would throw out decoys about what it is that you actually want in, in a, in, in, in a negotiation. Because if you tell them what you actually really want, then they’re gonna want make sure that you don’t get that thing, you know, because they don’t want you to win. They don’t want you to have that thing, you know? And at the very end, you know, at, if you end up with, you know, the thing that you wanted or the, the settlement that you wanted or whatever, I would act like, oh my God, they, they really got me, or whatever. You’ve gotta take your ego out of this thing because if, if they think that they got you or, or didn’t get you or whatever, it, it’s like, at the end of the day, if you can walk away from this thing and be done and you know, and, and, and, and have, you know, not have to look back and, and have them outta your life, that’s what you want.
RZ (41:10):
Because especially the more malignant that the narcissist that you’re dealing with, the worse it’s gonna be. I mean, you know, I know for me with my, my narcissistic business partner, I was just like, gray rock. So, you know, that’s another term that they have. And that was one of the other things I wanted to mention to you. The more you can just have no reaction to the types of things that they’re trying to do and that try to get a reaction out of you, the more you can just not take their bait, the better it’s gonna be for you, you know? Oh, that’s interesting. Oh, that’s, that’s really you know, great feedback. Thank you. Thanks for letting me know mm-hmm.
RZ (42:16):
Because, you know, I I, I mean, another phrase that I really like is I agree with you. You’re like, I agree with you. That’s what you think, you know, I agree with you that that’s your opinion. You know, I agree that I, you know, I heard that’s what you said, you know, I mean, you’ve agreed to nothing when you said that
RV (42:52):
Mm-Hmm.
RZ (43:15):
They can get [email protected] and it’s, you know, it’s, it’s available wherever books are sold, but slay the bully.com is the best place to go check it out and get all the bonuses that come along with it, which is, you know, a lot of really cool stuff, including, you know, access to my private launch team and bam. Yeah. And, you know, masterclass with me and, you know, early access to the manuscript, depending on, as you said when you’re hearing this and all kinds of really other cool stuff. So.
RV (43:48):
Yep. I love it. So we’ll link, we’ll link that up in the show notes and you can check that out. The last little question I’ve got for you, Rebecca, is just what advice would you give to somebody who’s really feeling discouraged right now? You know, like I said, I’ve, I’ve been in this spot before and you can, you can be acting like the Gray Rock. I think that’s really great advice. I wish I would’ve had that advice. You can be doing this stuff and in, in reality, deep down you can still feel quite a lot like crap. Like you are being manipulated, like you are dealing with someone who’s unreasonable, like you are losing, like you are, they’re getting their way with everything. And there is just, it’s just comp. You just feel like it’s completely unfair. And what would you, what would en encouragement would you give to somebody that is in that spot right now?
RZ (44:41):
First of all, I’m gonna tell you, they don’t attach themselves to you because you have so little value. They attach themselves to you because you have so much. Hmm.
RZ (44:50):
That’s one of the first things I tell you all the time. They don’t want the clearance rack item
RV (46:30):
Yeah, that’s great. Well, thank you so much for this. It feels empowering to have a, a little bit of insight to what’s going on and how to navigate away through this. And we’re so excited about the book and, and wishing you good luck with that. And we just wish you all the best, my friend.
RZ (46:46):
Thank you. You are the best too. You are the bomb.
Ep 416: Be Better at Instagram: 5 Things You Can Do Today with Chelsea Peitz
AJV (00:02):
Hey, welcome everybody. This is AJ Vaden, one of your co-hosts on the Influential Personal Brand podcast. Get excited. ’cause Today we’re gonna be talking about all the things that we actually need to know, that sometimes we get so annoyed that we have to know, which is social media and it’s a, it’s a love hate relationship for many of us with social media. But we’re gonna deep dive today into, in Instagram, and I will give a formal introduction of my awesome guest in just a minute. But Chelsea is here today to do a deep dive with us on Instagram. So let me tell you why you need to stick around for this episode Before I introduce Chelsea to you. Number one, if you are questioning whether or not you should be on social media, that’s probably a good episode for you.
AJV (00:51):
Specifically if you are an entrepreneur, small business owner, solopreneur, anyone who is a reputation based, word of mouth, highly referral based business. If you’re asking yourself, do I really need to, well, what if I hate it? Do I still have to? This is probably good, worthwhile content to help sway your decision one way or the other. The second is if your preferred platform of choice is Instagram, do not skip this episode. Do not fast forward. Do not stop early. This was curated and built because of the amount of inquiries and questions on video content, the algorithm. What do we need to know? What should we be doing? And quite honestly, a lot of these are tips and ideas that you probably have never thought of before. So first category, you’re not sure if you really wanna keep going down this path of social media.
AJV (01:45):
Yeah, you should listen. Number two, Instagram is your chosen platform. This was an episode specifically designed for you, so don’t skip ahead. So with that now I get to introduce a new friend of mine Chelsea Pietz. And she was referred to me from another guest that we had on the show. So if you haven’t checked out Phil Treadwell’s episode, go check that out. But this is also a really special thing because we actually have lots of friends in common that we didn’t even put together when I first got introduced to you. And then this is what I love about the world we live in, is that you know so many people that you don’t even know, you know, until you’re like, oh, wait, like I follow you. I was just watching your course, or I just heard this episode you were on, and it’s this really cool world that we get to live in, however frustrating it can be sometimes.
AJV (02:38):
So let me give all of you a quick formal introduction of Chelsea and then we’ll jump right in. So Chelsea is an influential figure in real estate marketing coaching. She’s has more than a decade of experience doing all kinds of awesome things in the real estate industry but specifically being a trailblazer when it comes to the real estate. And then anything to do with that mortgage. Just anything in that world when it comes to social me, social media, being on video, creating content for people in that industry. She’s also a keynote speaker. She’s also renowned in the neuroscience behind effective social media Video Connections, which is a lot of what we’re gonna talk about today. She has authored a book which is called talking in Pictures. She has one has her own awesome podcast episodes all over the place. That’s one of the things that got introduced to her as you sent me the episode that you were on for Social Media Marketing World, right? Yeah. And all of these podcasts. So she’s a podcast guest, all these amazing shows. And today she gets to be a guest on our show. So we’re so excited to have you with hands-on tactical experience. You’re doing it, you’re talking about it, you’re writing about it, and now you’re gonna talk to our audience. So Chelsea, welcome to the show.
CP (04:00):
Oh my gosh, I’m so excited. First of all, I need you to be my hype woman everywhere I go. That was like the most incredible podcast,
AJV (04:44):
You know, I love that and I’m so, so, so glad that you started with that because I think for most of us, the reason we have this love hate relationship with social media is one, social media has got a bad rap, right? And it’s like, it’s like everything else in the world, though. It can be used for good and it can be used for bad as is life. But if you choose to use it for good, and you choose to create valuable content for an audience that you feel really called to serve, like you can do so much good. Yeah, there’s a lot of bad, but there’s a lot of good. And today we’re gonna focus on the good parts. And you know, I I am one of those people who has a love-hate relationship with it because, because I think what happens is people get hit up all the time with this is how you make it successful, and this is how you go viral.
AJV (05:36):
And I just wanna put it out there. You do not have to go viral to make a difference, right? You do not have to have millions of followers to make life-changing impact. And I think that’s the exhausting part of, you know, you feel like you have to run this machine, and it’s like, no, you don’t. So I love you said, it’s like you get to make the rules for how you do it, and there are best practices and tips, but quite honestly, pick what works for you, use that, but it doesn’t matter if you’ve got one follower or a million, like you’re doing this because you feel like you have content that can be helpful. And if we stay focused on that, the rest takes care of itself. Right?
CP (06:14):
I love that. I, I I feel like that is the entire theme and message of this entire podcast. Say it louder for the people in the back, aj. Absolutely. There is a massive difference between someone who is an influencer and someone who is influential. Ah-Huh. And I always talk about views versus value. Views do not equal value. And there’s so many meaningful metrics that we will never, ever be able to measure. I know that the people who are listening to you will have an aha moment listening to one of your podcasts. Are you able to measure that? Well, not unless they actually tell you about it. So there’s a lot of things that are immeasurable, which I also call the humanness of social media. And that’s what I’m really passionate about because I’m sort of a, I didn’t realize I was a rule breaker because I, I consider myself a rule follower. I’m like a high D rule follower. But it just wasn’t working for me. And I found it really wasn’t working for a lot of other people too. And I felt boxed in. I didn’t feel like it was sustainable. To your point, you read a blog, you go to a conference, you watch a YouTube video, and every single person is telling you something different. Well, which one is it? What do we do post every day? Post once a week? And so it becomes very overwhelming very quickly. Yeah.
AJV (07:27):
And I think the other thing that’s so overwhelming is then you do all of the things that are recommended or taught and then the algorithm changes and PO there goes all that work you did
CP (08:14):
That is
AJV (08:15):
Constantly untrackable. You’re
CP (08:17):
Right. It’s untrackable constantly changing, but we’re gonna talk about it today and I’m, I’m going to bring some clarity and simplification so that you can actually apply this and understand that it’s not working against you. And in fact, if you do the right things, it’s going to be working for you. And one of the things I remember from almost 24 years ago now, I became a, a real estate agent 23 years ago. My broker would always ask me the same question when I came into the office every day. And the question was, how many people did you talk to today,
CP (09:00):
And you also had to have someone’s phone number. You had to have their email, they had to answer their phone. You had to mail them something or go see them in person. And now the beauty of social media is you still can create those real human connections. You just can happen to share your story and your expertise and your thought leadership at scale while you’re sleeping. And so one of the things that I love to demystify is the algorithm. And yes, the algorithm is a little bit different on every single platform, but by and large, it is about the same specifically on Instagram. So we’ll talk about that one today. Believe it or not, there are actually separate algorithms for separate formats. And we’re not going to confuse anyone. There’s no need to even know about that. I just wanna let you know that there is a separate algorithm for stories.
CP (09:46):
There’s a separate algorithm for reels and everything else. What you do need to know is what is the platform looking for? And the good news, it’s the same thing your community of humans is looking for. And I call it simply less contenting, more commenting, having more meaningful conversations with people with intention and thoughtfulness. These would be people that you’ve worked with before and perhaps you want to continue working with them in the future. It could be a referral partner, it could be another small business in your particular area or hometown, anyone that you want to build brand awareness with. And that you can see a benefit that if you continue to create video content or written content, that that content could help a stranger feel like they already know you before they meet you. And so the algorithm is heavily driven by your conversations, your comments, your direct messages.
CP (10:48):
Direct messages are huge on Instagram and they have been for a while. So here’s the great thing. Who you talk to matters. And if you ask me, and I’m actually a full-time content creator, I would prefer to talk to people versus creating videos all day. I love talking to people and I love having those connections. And I love doing it specifically through Instagram stories because you’re getting this peek into someone’s life where I call it their sacred spaces. You are in my home, you’re in my office. You might be on a vacation with me. And you also see my co-stars, my dogs, my kiddo, my husband
CP (11:41):
And here’s what happens When I send you a direct message, aj, the algorithm wakes up and it takes notice because the algorithm is just a a, a data set, it’s just a software. And the ultimate goal of any platform is to keep you on it. Mm-Hmm.
CP (12:38):
If I go in there and it’s not with an intention, I am down the rabbit hole. Uhhuh
AJV (13:58):
I mean, that last line, you need to like have that on a poster somewhere where it’s like, it’s like, just like in real offline life,
CP (14:40):
Yeah. And you don’t have to make content all the time. So that content stress, and I know we’re gonna talk about content overwhelm today. How many of you would rather talk to someone that you enjoy speaking to or potentially making their day and having them feel seen and remembered and thought of? And you can do that while you’re having your coffee or your tea in the morning from bed because you don’t even have to make a video in order to send someone a direct message. You can even send them a voice message so they can hear the tonality in your voice if you’re wishing them a great day or a happy birthday or congratulations or whatever the message may be. And that is so much easier than having to drive and go see people. Yeah. I can talk to 30 people in less than 30 minutes if I want to on Instagram.
CP (15:22):
And because you’re a heavy engager, because you’re a good community member in the eyes of Instagram. And I’m also bringing people back because they have to open that notification. So I am bringing people back. And so what happens is this ecosystem where I don’t post every day. I never have. I post once a week in the feed. I know that’s gonna be shocking for a lot of people, but I’m a heavy engager and it fuels my community and it also brings me joy. And guess what? The algorithm is very happy with that. Because your most important content is your conversations.
AJV (16:00):
Hmm. Most important content conversations. Tweet that. Or it’s not even called that anymore. I forget,
CP (16:07):
Is it a something, an X, X,
AJV (16:09):
X X? No. Who knows what’s happening over there. We’re not talking about them today. It’s so helpful. That’s so insightful. I love that. Like, that is so simple. It may not be the answer everyone’s looking for. It’s like, oh, so that’s my problem. I only get on once once a month. Okay. but it’s, but it’s so simple, which, and that’s what we’re trying to do, is just go like, what are the simple things that you can do? What do you, what do you need to know so that you can time block it and put it in your schedule, just like you do with email and all the other, you know, communication formats we have. So, okay. So I love that. I love that. So now let’s talk about the next big topic, which, okay, knowing that we’ve got some, some sort of action plan to compliment the algorithm. The next big question we wanna tackle here is, well, what, what is the one thing or the one or two things that entrepreneurs should be doing today to help build their personal brands using Instagram specifically? So what do you got for us? What should we be doing?
CP (17:10):
Absolutely. This is something that may not seem as sexy as making a reel, but it’s so critically important because the foundation of how you show up your personal brand experience on Instagram matters. And one of the most important things that I always start with when I’m auditing a client’s profile or their account, is we don’t start with content. We start with the engagement, proactive engagement, which we just talked about. Then we move into, are you searchable? Can people find you? And when they find you, what do they see? What’s the experience they have of of you and your brand and what you do? Can they even tell what you do and how you can help them? And by the way, this happens in seconds if that. So we need to focus first on your profile. And I’m gonna give you some really tactical tips and some how to use some homework, if you will, for the listeners, because I bet there’s at least one thing, if not more, on this list that you haven’t done that will absolutely help you get found by the right audience, get followed by them on the first visit. So let’s dive into a little bit. I’m
AJV (18:24):
Pulling up my Instagram profile right now. This is like a, a mentoring session right now. It’s, I’m pulling up my profile. I’m gonna check my boxes. Okay, I’m ready.
CP (18:34):
Okay. So the very first thing that you need to know is how your profile actually works in your favor. A lot of people think it’s just a place that you can go and you can set up your information one time and that’s it. When in reality it’s just like a website that lives on the internet except it lives in Instagram. And we at a basic level understand how a website and how Google searches work, there is a website, it’s a place where people can find out information and how do we find them? You go to Google, you do a search, you ask it a question with some keywords, and then it says, Hey, these websites have similar keywords. This might be what you’re looking for, obviously an oversimplification. But just to keep it really, really, really basic like that. The same thing happens on Instagram.
CP (19:18):
Instagram is a search engine. Every social media platform is a search engine. Think YouTube. Mm-Hmm.
CP (20:21):
And underneath that is another field that’s called the name field. Let me go slowly through this. The fields of username and the one underneath your profile called name, those are the only searchable fields of your entire profile. So if you wanna get found, you need to make sure that you have optimized those two key areas. And I’ll give you a couple of tips on what you might wanna put in there. Well, first of all, you need your, your first and last name. That’s your personal brand. If this is representing a corporation or a company, then it would make sense to have your company or your brand’s name. If it is a solopreneur, an entrepreneur, a personal brand, it needs to have first and last, not just first, not just last. And it certainly doesn’t wanna be something obtuse like Jeep Lover 22, because then I definitely won’t find you when I’m typing in your name and your personal brand.
CP (21:21):
As you know, AJ is so critically important that we want people who are referring you. We want to easily find you. ’cause We’re not gonna stick around and keep searching. Mm-Hmm.
CP (22:16):
You might have author or whatever types of products that you want to be found for. So name or brand, name some kind of keyword that is going to tell people what you are offering or what you wanna be found for. If you’re location specific, I do recommend a city. And last but not least you know, you can also have some of those industry terms. And I wanna just take a moment to say, jargon is very challenging when it comes to those internal language that we often use. For example, if you’re a mortgage, you might call yourself a loan officer, but you shorten that to lo and no consumers are going to be searching for the the lo
CP (23:12):
There’s no rules of how you should craft this bio. It’s super short. So they make it brief. We love that. Get to the point, but be clear about who you help and how you help them so that when somebody lands here and skims mm-hmm.
CP (24:07):
Mm-Hmm.
AJV (25:22):
Yeah. I love that. And I think that, you know, it’s so similar to, like, we talked about this a lot with like LinkedIn, it’s no different here, right? It’s like all the
CP (25:29):
Same.
AJV (25:30):
It’s all the same, but you gotta know the little things. And so, so here I have a question. So what if you know, ’cause this kind of goes in with another question we were gonna talk about, which is, should you have your own personal account and then one for your business? Like, I mean, I wanna like, you know, you know, do all the fun vacation picks, but then I have all my business content. Like how do you manage those? And so before you answer that, because I am super curious to hear your thoughts, what if you are, you know, the, the face of a business per se? So like, I’ll use mug mine for example. So I’ve got my name. Would it also be good to put my business’s name next to my name? Mm-Hmm.
CP (26:12):
I would it without looking at it, I don’t have it in front of me, but I would have your username be your first and last name. Yep. And then in that name field you could have AJ and then like a little space and then Brand Builders group or whatever company or information you want in there. And then the bio itself, yes. You can also please insert keywords. It’s not going to be searchable by Instagram standards, but here’s the thing. Every ai, every software is looking at overarching themes. I think of it like a, ’cause I have a 10 year old who’s in fifth grade. So we do a lot of homework together. And I always tell ’em, you know, it’s okay if you just, you know, don’t s smash it on this, you know, spelling test. It’s not gonna ruin your whole grade for the year.
AJV (27:25):
Yeah. So my last question on this, so in your opinion, would it be better to put like AJ Vaden, you know, little Space Brand Builders Group or AJ Vaden Little Space helping entrepreneurs build personal brands?
CP (27:42):
Okay. I would put the, the message or what you’re doing in the actual bio one, because there’s probably not gonna be enough space for it. But also think about what people are searching, helping. Probably not a lot of people searching for helping, right? Yeah. That actual word. But if somebody refers me to Brand Builders Group, I’m searching for that direct. I know this because I did
AJV (28:21):
Yeah. So I think a lot of that too is, you know, one I love free coaching advice, but then also I think a lot of people, it’s like you, what I find all the time is that we have so many of our audience members at Brand Builders Group, they get caught up in being in the catchy word phrase, Hey, I want it to be like cutesy and I want it to be like this. And it’s like, no, be clear. Just be very clear. Right? But it’s like we get caught up in the marketing lingo Yes. Versus, you know, just what are people typing in? Right.
CP (28:52):
And I’m laughing because I’m not, I am one of those people. I’m very transparent. I love a good little rhyming marketing slogan. I understand that. And you are so right. It needs to be clear. It needs to be concise, and it needs to be succinct. Absolutely.
AJV (29:07):
Yeah. So good. This is great. Okay, so personal profile, business profile. Do we need two accounts? Like really? Okay,
CP (29:15):
This is a, this is a question I get every single time, every podcast, every webinar, every time I’m speaking. And I love this question because this question really aligns with, with my message, which is, you know, your human first and whatever you’re, you’re selling or service, you know, it is second. And at the end of the day, we are human beings behind the screen, right? So the reason that we got started on these two accounts, we can, we can thank Facebook for that because Facebook made us have these business pages. And so we all got business pages and now everybody has a business page. And guess what? The reach and engagement is abysmal unless you pay for it. Hmm. That might be why they’re keeping bus business pages around. And then invariably what happens is, every time I coach somebody that has two accounts, okay, they say, oh my gosh, I’ve got this one business account.
CP (30:04):
And so I put business stuff over there. I put my just listeds my just sold or my definitions of the day or anything that is professional and businessy, but it really doesn’t get much engagement and it’s kind of crickets over there. And so now I kind of resent it and I don’t even wanna post over there. So then I go to Canva, which I love and adore, and I just pull a template and I post it over there. And guess what? I’m in this vicious circle of not being able to get any engagement and then feeling the pressure of having to also post to that account. Now, there are many times where an individual may wanna keep something completely separate. You decide what works for you. If you have children that you don’t wanna share your children on social media, absolutely have a private account for family and friends.
CP (30:51):
Just know that I would recommend having a secondary account that is public because you do want people to find you, you do want to grow that way. And that is absolutely perfectly fine to have two, oftentimes I think two accounts is twice the work, depending on what your goals are. If you’re trying to grow. Two, it’s a lot of work. I also consider one human, one brand, one account. Mm-Hmm.
CP (31:40):
There’s a difference between personal and private. Private is whatever you decided to be. It could be the vacation pics. It could be showing your family but personal is your face, your voice, your perspective created from your lived experiences. And that is the only original content on the planet.
CP (32:36):
I usually just say, unless there’s extenuating circumstances, have one account and make your content a hundred percent human. There’s no 80 20 anymore. You can have a hundred percent business content and still humanize it. Or you could have no business content
AJV (33:27):
CP (33:29):
Yeah, absolutely. I
AJV (33:30):
Love that. But I think I love that. And I, I completely agree, like agree, we completely are on the same page here. The idea of trying to manage two accounts feels so much work. I mean, it feels like so much work because it is
CP (33:47):
Mm-Hmm.
AJV (33:50):
Really, I think more importantly, it’s like people don’t fall in love with businesses. They fall in love with people. They fall in love with founders. They fall in love with the person who had the idea for the business, and they fall in love with the story and what it’s about and who it’s for. But nobody falls in love with a logo. Right? They may fall in love with the products because the products serve a need that they have, right? And so totally agree with that, and I love that. So you, you actually just talked about this when you mentioned lurking with love. It’s like, if you’re scrolling quickly, like we’re making instantaneous judgment calls decisions on, is this the type of person I wanna follow content I wanna check out is it, is this someone that I want more of and more from?
AJV (34:34):
And a lot of that has to do with video content, right? And so one of the things that we had kinda outlined is something that we thought would be worthwhile for this conversation today is, well, if we know that it’s that important, and we know that the, you know, typically algorithm favors video, just generally speaking why do we have such a hard time with it? And I can just speak for the community that I get to serve at Brand Builders group and our own team. It’s like, I’ll be having a conversation with someone just like this, and it’s mind blowingly good. And I’m like, we gotta get that on camera. So I pause and I get my phone and I ask the question again, and then it’s like, deer in the headlights, crickets. And they’re like, wait, what, what were we saying?
AJV (35:17):
And it’s like all of their like personality and their amazing ideas just fluttered away into who knows where. And there’s this immense amount of video insecurity. It’s, I don’t like the way I look on video. They, they are not themselves, like their personality, their, even their words just fall apart as they look at this red dot, or in my case, a green dot and five computer. And so why does that happen and how can we overcome it? Like how do we get better at creating better video specifically for short form content, right? Because we’re not trying to put 30 minute videos up, or 10 minute or even five minutes, right? We’re talking about short short. So how do we get better at this? Oh,
CP (36:05):
Video insecurity is something that I know well and it, I know it well because it was me. I
CP (36:50):
Mm-Hmm. If I had kind of looked at some of the things. And so I’ve really, really honed in on what I call the the cringe factor or the ick, you know, why do we have the ick when we are watching our recorded selves? And what’s really interesting is that it comes down to a mismatch, right? It’s a misalignment of seeing the recorded self and, and who we are in, in the real life. And you just mentioned this, where we can be having a conversation and then all of a sudden the camera comes on and we feel as though we have to deliver a persona or a scripted performance or sound a certain way. And then when you add in that, oftentimes when you’re framing yourself in a small video like your phone, you’re not moving very much, right? And you’re not moving your hands or your body if you’re scripting, which by the way, I love scripting.
CP (37:42):
Not saying not to script, but I spend a lot of time working on making it sound human and making sure that the warmth cues in my face don’t dissipate. Hmm. And this is a lot of your beginning, I’m gonna give you a beginner’s tip, but some advanced tips is the reason that you don’t like what you’re seeing is that mismatch is because you don’t have any body movement. You’re probably not using your hands. You may have written down some scripts and your brain is trying to remember bullet point number three because you don’t wanna rerecord or you don’t wanna make a mistake, but your face and your mouth is on the intro. Yeah. And so all of a sudden
CP (38:26):
Yeah. It’s a very challenging to write in a conversational friendly tone. And what happens is we’re reading in our brains and our brain’s really focusing on one thing at a time. So if you’re reading your face is probably not emoting. And if you’ve ever memorized a speech, I know I have, I’m sure you have too. It’s the hardest thing. I do not recommend it. It’s really hard to be able to memorize something, read it in your mind, and e mote and move your body and all of those things at the same time. So those are some of the reasons for our video. Ick. The answer is one that’s very simple. Ask yourself this question. If you feel a limiting belief creep in. I don’t like how I look. I don’t like how I sound. I’m not hair and makeup ready. Oh, I don’t have time to write a script.
CP (39:17):
I just feel like I’m not very good at this. Whatever that limiting belief may be, because there is a long list, ask yourself this one question, what would you do in real life? And this is the, the question I ask almost everyone who is struggling with social media. And so it works in so many capacities. Like, okay, I can’t stand how I look. Okay, so imagine I’m going to visit a client and we’re at Starbucks and we’re having a coffee, and I’ve got my first p ss l of the season, and I’m so excited and they ask me a question and I know the answer. But instead, I dive under the table and I’ve left the lattes and my clients sitting there wondering if I’m okay bending over saying, are you okay down there? And I’m like, I’m totally fine. I just have this thing where I can’t look at people when I talk to them.
CP (40:04):
What would you do in real life? We would never do that. Right? And so when we ask ourselves this question, or, you know, people say, should I, should I dmm somebody a copy and paste sales script? Okay, well, what would you do in real life? You go to a wonderful conference, you’re meeting someone, would you throw your cards in their face and give them that exact word for word copy, paste message, and then leave and go home and say, I can’t believe it. I didn’t get any new business. And I even gave them my cards. Even the new ones with the new logo, I don’t understand it. Of course not, of course not even the private thing when people are like, well, I like to keep business and personal separate. Okay, but what would you do in real life? You meet a client. Do you talk about anything but business?
CP (40:49):
If they ask you, oh my gosh, do you have dogs? And your eyes glaze over and you’re giving them stats and data? Yeah. And they’re like, okay, no. ’cause, So it’s important to ask what would you do in real life? And that’s how you can kind of work through, through those, those limiting beliefs and, and say, okay, does this make sense? Would I do that? Probably not. Okay. And then we kind of peel back those limiting beliefs and then can get into sort of the tactics, which we’ll talk about of really, you know, now that you’re gonna get on video, what are some tactics you can do to make that video better so that you do feel better about the performance, about the finished product, and also get some engagement. ’cause There’s nothing worse than making content and keep being consistent, and you’re posting it and like nothing’s happening. Right? I understand it’s discouraging. So we’ll talk about those tips as
AJV (41:35):
Well. I love that. And I, as you were talking, I, I remember somebody giving me this tip one time, and it’s been a long time since I’ve used it, because I don’t have video in security. It’s probably, I probably need to have a little bit more video in security. I a little more
AJV (42:17):
So ask the person to step right above or right under the camera and talk to them, position the camera in a way that the person who you’re talking to, you’re talking to a person, not a camera. Now if you’re filming yourself, and we, this is something we talk a lot about, but hopefully you have an ideal, you know, customer avatar, right? You have this person that’s like, this is who I’m making this content for. So it’s, you know, whoever that person is, but have a picture of a person and cover it. Like, you can, like, just tape it on your computer screen right below where the little camera is. So you’re not looking at yourself, but you’re looking at a picture of the person, right? And it’s like, Google some images, give them a name like build out who they are. Like, but you gotta know that this, you’re talking to a real life human.
AJV (43:07):
Like, these are not mysterious accounts. These are people. And so talk to a person. And I remember that was years ago. I haven’t done it in a long time, but I may bring it back. I may bring it back because I, I think so much of what you said is like, what would you do in real life? In real life? You don’t talk to a camera, you talk to a person. Mm-Hmm.
CP (43:46):
Yes. Okay. I’m gonna give you a lot of tactics, but I, before I do, I just wanna say there are no rules. We are applauding you and cheering you on if you make any video at all.
CP (44:50):
Which means that they are pushing those videos to people who don’t know you. Mm-Hmm. Which is kind of awesome. If you wanna grow and you wanna share your message, you used to have to pay for ads for that, but now they’re looking at your topic, it, they’re serving this content to people that don’t know you. In fact, it’s 40 plus percent of the content you see in your feed and your home feed are from people you don’t follow. And that’s kind of new. So what happens is, you don’t have time. These people don’t know and love you. I kn I know and and love people that I follow, and I will sit through their intro because I love them, but not if I don’t know you. You’ve gotta get to the point. So the intro, sometimes we hear something like this, Hey everyone, it’s Chelsea Pipes, and today we’re talking about, and they won’t even last through the, Hey everyone, first of all, we wanna address the one human being that we’re talking to.
CP (45:42):
So we’re gonna use that word, you, not everyone, or hey all, or hey guys or whomever it is. But it’s how you start matters. So how do I recommend that you start a video? The simplest way is to ask a question and use the word you. So you’re gonna ask a question and use the word you. And you could call that a hook if you’re speaking in marketing terms. And there’s all kinds of hooks that you can use. You could even Google it. You could ask chat and g p t you could make it so that it’s specific to your industry, but simply asking a question. So here’s an example. Instead of me saying, Hey, everyone, it’s Chelsea, and today we’re gonna talk about three things you need to know for Instagram. Okay? I might say, do you wanna know the number one thing you’re doing wrong on Instagram?
CP (46:29):
I asked a question. I used the word you. And that person who doesn’t know me is like, oh, you’re talking to me because you used the word you and even invited me into a conversation by asking a question. Now, does every video you ever make have to have a hook? No. Does every video you ever make have to start with a question? No. But this is a best practice and it will improve your mindset when you’re creating video content to think about how can I stop the scroll? So that’s tip number one, is how you start your video matters. And I recommend having a hook, or it could just be simply a question and use the word you. Now, my second tip is my favorite. This is like my, my secret weapon. And when I realized this, I was like, where have I been? Where have I been this entire time?
CP (47:15):
If there’s anyone out there listening who thought I need to record this whole video in one clip, that was me. And then I thought, well, wait a minute. I don’t have to record this whole video in one fell swoop. I can actually record it in clips or little tiny itty bitty sentences I mentioned before. I love to script. I do a lot of educational content and I gotta be brief. So I like to write it out so I know what I’m gonna say. I don’t wanna memorize it because I still want it to feel like me. And that’s a lot of content stress. So I’m gonna do one sentence at a time. And if you’re in Instagram or TikTok, or if you are in Facebook and you’re creating a reel, all you have to do is press and hold record sentence number one, let go and reset.
CP (47:57):
Have a glass of water, look down at your notes. And when I started doing that, I was like, oh my gosh, I feel so much better. I don’t have to memorize all of this and I can record in clips. And with the beauty of how they set up these editing features, it just strings it all together. And so it’s a really simple way to not have to memorize, to be able to look down and feel confident. And also another pro tip, really high production value. I actually move my arm from here to here or just, you know, a few inches in between the clips. And I don’t even use a tripod, but I, I just move. And people say, why you change your angles? I go, because TV has a lot of cameras. They have camera one, camera two, we’re zooming in, we’re zooming out, and I hate editing and I don’t wanna edit. So all I do is my high production value of starting in one position and moving to the next when I’m recording clip number two. So recording in clips is absolutely going to help you. Ooh,
AJV (48:55):
Love that. So easy. And you know what the best part about that is? You don’t have to like get another, you know, editing app. You don’t have to like do this on your computer. You don’t have to do it outside of the, of the platform. Mm-Hmm.
AJV (49:18):
Yes. You gotta know what to do. I love that. And I love two simple tip of like, just move your arm, right?
CP (50:21):
Yeah. And, and you know, it’s funny because you can have really powerful text thought leadership content without any movement either. But you’re right, the, the stopping the scroll usually happens with some kind of, of movement. And that also brings in my, my really important last point for any video that you’re making. And this is one point that I see so many people missing almost a hundred percent of my audits. I will look through the content and this is not on it. And this will help you get more followers as well. So words text, right? Yeah. What is it? 80, 90% of people viewing videos have the sound off for a variety of reasons. Yeah. If it’s me, I’m in an airport somewhere, right? I’m getting on a flight to go somewhere. Maybe you’ve got a newborn and it’s 3:00 AM and you are not moving to wake that baby up.
CP (51:07):
But you are sitting there now and you’re gonna watch something, right? Maybe it’s like if your husband’s like mine and he watches like sci-fi and I don’t wanna watch that, but I don’t wanna be rude and have my phone on whatever reason it is. You’ve gotta give people different ways to consume the content. There is a massive audience of users who prefer sound off or need the closed captioning because they are hard of hearing or death. Yeah. So good. And so it’s critical that if you wanna engage people, they’re not gonna watch your mouth move for 30 seconds. They’re not even gonna watch your mouth move for three seconds if we can’t read it. So you need to add the closed captioning. It’s built right into the system. And the last thing that is the one that everyone, almost all, everyone misses, we’re going back to the profile where I’m scanning AJ’s profile, seeing what she’s all about.
CP (51:51):
If AJ doesn’t have a title on every single video, she does like a reel and there’s no title. I’m not gonna click on all 300 of her videos. I’m new here. I just wanna scan and see what she’s all about. So it’s so critical that on any short form, vertical video on any platform, you have a title that tells people what are they going to learn about? What are you talking about in the video? Because when somebody scrolls through mine and sees what I talk about, they’re like, oh, this person knows what they’re talking about. I’m gonna click follow. And so it’s really, really important to have those, what they call cover photos. Or just text on, on your video so that we know what it’s about.
AJV (52:34):
Oh, this is so good. And y’all, I cannot believe that we have already been talking for an hour. I told Chelsea it’s like 45 minutes and we’re gonna cover these things. And it’s like, whew. 60 minutes, just like flew by in a gif. And like we had a whole nother question that we were gonna spend time on. I, Chelsea, I’m gonna have to have you back at some point, but I don’t wanna leave everyone hanging. So the last question, and we’ll just do this super high level, and then we’ll tell people where to go to connect with you. Actually, I’ll go ahead and do that now. Y’all, if y’all wanna learn more about Instagram, then you should probably just follow Chelsea on Instagram, right? It’s like, if you want more of these tips you just go to, I think it, you said it’s, hold on, I’ve got this, I wrote it down so that I didn’t forget.
AJV (53:16):
It’s Chelsea dot pipes and it’s P E I T Z, Chelsea Pipes. That’s her handle. It’ll be in, in the show notes. So go follow her on Instagram and learn more about how to be better at Instagram. Now, last thing, content overwhelm. And we’ve kind of touched on this in a variety of different ways, but so many people want to, but they’re like, oh my gosh, I just don’t have time. Right? And I’m not a full-time digital marketer. I’m not a full-time content creator. I have a full-time business. How do I fit this all in
CP (54:03):
I think the easiest way to start thinking about content, and this is my personal strategy too, because I am in the overwhelmed category, I get so excited. I have too many things. I, I then I have no ideas. And what if I run out of ideas, which I guarantee will not happen, but I’m just letting you know, I also have that fear because I am human. And so I would recommend being more aware, and that’s the hardest part of content. So when I’m coaching people and creating like Instagram stories, they’re like, I don’t have anything to post. Like, I’m, you know, going to my law office and I’m, you know, doing paperwork that’s not exciting. Well, we have to start looking at everything as content. And I’m not saying to give all of those details away, but you can mess or you can give the message of, today I helped a client who was going through X, Y, and Z.
CP (54:50):
And you know, this is a really good lesson to learn about copyright law. So you can still let people know. So you have to start being aware of the content that’s around you. The best way that I personally do this is I put some time in my calendar, like three minutes max. I mean, if you wanna try it in one minute, go for it. I love that for you. But look through your text messages, look through your emails. Think about what meetings you had today. Mm-Hmm. And what were questions that came up? What were topics? What were the things that went sideways? Because you know, that’s definitely gonna be good content for you to say, here’s how to avoid this. And it’s being aware of the questions you’re being asked. And knowing that I am always asked this set of questions, Hmm, maybe I should make some content about it because if these people have questions about it, I guarantee that other people have questions about it.
CP (55:39):
And here’s my last tip on the content is, and this is a little bit harder, so maybe this is like the 2 0 2. I want you to start thinking about what are the questions people aren’t asking ’cause they don’t know to ask about. And that’s really where you can build that mind share and that thought leadership where people say, huh, I never thought about that. Mm-Hmm.
AJV (56:32):
I love that. And I just, I kind of wrote this down too. It’s, I, here’s my big takeaway from this. It’s like, content’s everywhere. You don’t have to come up with it. It’s everywhere. Like it’s, find one thing to talk about every day. So I love what you said, it’s like, what questions were you asked today? Or what questions did you ask today? Or what questions did you want to ask that you didn’t? You know, what experiences, like, did you run into an old friend? Did you did you have a client come back? It’s like, but what unique, something happened. Maybe it was a school event with your kids or a sporting event, but like, what was an experience you had? Where did you go? Who did you see? Were there any interesting moments? Was it like, you know, I have weird stuff happened to me every day.
AJV (57:15):
I don’t know if I attract it or what, but it’s like Rory is always like, babe, like, like, put that on Instagram. Like, you need to like talk about like this weird, like, yes, it’s just like that, but that’s life. Everyone has it. Yeah. It’s just, are you paying attention? Mm-Hmm.
AJV (58:17):
I’ll put it in the show notes, but then also stay tuned as I do the recap episode next.