Author: Nicole Gale

Ep 511: 4 Painful Lessons I Wish I Knew Before Becoming An Entrepreneur | Clate Mask Episode Recap

RV (00:00):
Here’s four business lessons I wish I knew sooner as an entrepreneur. Number one, perseverance matters more than pedigree. Perseverance matters more than pedigree. If you’re an entrepreneur, don’t be impressed by people who have fancy degrees or letters after their name. When it comes to starting a business, it’s all about who has the fight, who has the hustle, and who has the ability to solve problems too early and too often in my career, I surrender to people just ’cause they were older than me or I thought they were smarter than me because they had more experience. It’s nothing like what it means to be an entrepreneur when you’re starting something outta nothing. What matters is not the size of the dog in the fight, the size of fight in the dog. Number two, when it comes to starting a great company, most of it comes down to three things.
RV (00:50):
Sales systems and superstars. I’m telling you, 99% of building a great business is being great at making sales. It’s being great at building systems, and is being great at recruiting superstars. I don’t even care what businesses is. I don’t care what industry, and I don’t care what geographic region. We have coached people all over the globe. I’ve spoken all over the globe, and these three things are true. If you can make sales, the business is gonna stay alive. But sales doesn’t solve all your problems. ’cause if you make a lot of sales, but you have crappy systems and you don’t have superstars, sales is actually gonna create more problems. But sales keeps you alive. Sales is the lifeline of the business. If you wanna make your business awesome, then you need great systems and you need superstars. You need amazing people. So that’s what you’re after.
RV (01:41):
But you don’t need a master’s degree. You don’t need to have 40 years of experience. You have to have that perseverance. And then you have to stay focused on growing sales, always keeping revenue coming in the door, strengthening your systems, right? Having great processes and always recruiting, attracting, and keeping, and creating great opportunities for really great people. Which brings me to number three. And I’ll say this is the scariest thing that I have learned in all of business. This is one of my least favorite things that I have learned, and I almost don’t even want to tell you what this lesson is because it pains me to say it. And that is that loyalty is just a paycheck away. Loyalty is just a paycheck away. I heard that early in my career and when I first heard it, I rejected it. And I thought, no, no, no. Like that’s not it. And it’s certainly not that for everybody. Some people are loyal because they’re loyal. Some people really believe in the mission. Some people really believe in the company. But in many cases, loyalty is a paycheck away. The moment someone shows up and offers to pay your people more money to go do it, they’re likely to leave. So the way that I internalize that is to say, you should strive to pay your people
RV (02:58):
As well as you can, as fast as you can without sinking yourself and without sinking the company. But you need to be aware to go. Nothing is guaranteed. The people on your team are not guaranteed to be there. They’re not automatically locked in. And this isn’t like it was 50 years ago where people stayed at one company their whole career. You can be pretty sure that the people on your team are thinking about starting their own thing, starting their own thing, doing a side hustle, being recruited, and loyalty is just a paycheck away. Even beyond that, in personal cases, people will betray you in business. They will, even if it’s not taking another job, it’s, it’s doing things internally. I’ve seen this in the corporate world. I’ve seen it in the entrepreneur world. Just be aware that the people that you think are your best friends.
RV (03:44):
When push comes to shove and money’s on the table, people do crazy things. So nothing is guaranteed and do your best to pay people. Well, that brings me to lesson number four, which is all that matters is what’s in the contract. All that matters is what’s in the contract. Now, I’ll tell you, I heard a piece of advice that is true, and it’s the opposite of what I’m telling you. A, a mentor of mine, someone that I, I very much respect, shared with me early in my career. He said, if you can’t trust the person’s handshake, then what’s in the contract doesn’t matter. And that is true. If you can’t trust their handshake, then what’s in the in the contract doesn’t matter. But even if you can trust the person’s handshake, if you ever get into a situation where there is a legal battle, where there is some discrepancy where push comes to shove and there is an argument, it will be settled by what is on the paper.
RV (04:39):
So whatever it is, get it documented. And if you come to an agreement with somebody and they’re really on board with that agreement, they shouldn’t be resistant to documenting it. If they’re resistant to documenting it, let me tell you something, they don’t actually mean it. They might say it because they’re trying to get you to do something, but if somebody really means it, they’ll want it on paper. If they don’t, I’m skeptical. So there you have it, four business lessons that I wish I knew earlier as an entrepreneur. Take those four things, put ’em into practice in your business. I promise it’ll help you be successful much faster than we’ve been able to.

Ep 510: Conquer the Chaos with Clate Mask

RV (00:02):
Well, today you’re gonna hear from someone who is a dear friend of mine. His name is Clate Mask and Clate’s product, his company, his life mission, has radically changed my life, our lives, our business. He is a huge part of what has made Brand Builders Group successful, although many of you don’t realize the role that he has because it’s so behind the scenes but it is so critical to everything we do, and you’re gonna hear about that. How is that possible? Well, clay is the CEO and the co-founder of Keep, which is the world’s leading business automation software. It is round a hundred million dollar company. It’s a SA software as a service, a SaaS company. And it is the business automation tool that AJ and I have used to now build six different multimillion dollar businesses, two of which have become eight figures including Brand Builders Group, which has gone from zero to eight figures in five years.
RV (01:00):
The reason why that has happened, a huge part of why that has happened is because we have built our businesses on kes platform. We use Keap to automate our marketing, to automate our sales pipeline, to automate our customer experience, to automate our customer service, to automate our onboarding, our recruiting, our hiring, our our interviewing. We automate our payments, we automate our collections. We automate so many parts of our business. We automate so many parts of our content marketing and our podcast production, and virtually all of them are, can connected back through this software. And so much so that we have been building a custom version of that software called Instant Automation Toolkit, which has been over coming up on five years in development. And we’re just about to release it. And so I thought, Hey, you need to meet this man. The man that was you know, one of the original visionaries of the whole marketing and business automation space. And Clay is also a New York Times bestselling author. He is a multi Inc. 5,000, you know, CEO. He is an award-winning entrepreneur. And he has a book that just came out called Conquer the Chaos. And we’re gonna talk about exactly what that means. And part of what Clate has done is build an amazing personal life in addition to an amazing business. And so we’re gonna talk about how to not only automate your business, but also win in your personal life at the same time. So Clate, welcome to the show, my brother.
CM (02:33):
Hey, thank you Roy. That was a heck of an intro. I appreciate you
RV (02:36):
. Yeah, man, I, I, I, I mean it, I I would not endorse something like that. And, you know, we are building a whole function, a whole division of our company this instant automation toolkit product that, that is, I I think this is the first time I’ve even talked about it on the podcast ’cause it’s been in development, but it’s becoming real because of you and, and, and, and because of how much, you know, the, the tool and your team ha has built. I don’t wanna talk, I don’t wanna dive into the technology though. I wanna talk about your book Conquer the Chaos, because, you know, they’re very much related. But, but I think the, the real issue is, is chaos. So why do you use that word chaos? Where does, where does that term or that concept come from? How does that show up and affect personal brands and, you know, small business owners, like, you know, talk to me a little bit about that. Yeah,
CM (03:32):
You bet. You know, we, we’ve worked with entrepreneurs for over 20 years helping them to achieve their, their goals and dreams. And, you know, when everybody gets into business, they have this, this dream of freedom. They’ve got this view of what things are gonna be like when they get to, you know, stick it to the man, have no boss, do what they wanna do, and have all the time in the world and the ability to make all the money they want. And then they get into it and oh my gosh, there’s so much to do. There are never enough hours in the day. There’s a feeling of great overwhelm. Things are slipping through the cracks. And you feel like, oh my gosh, how can I clone myself? I, you know, I I I’ve gotta figure out some way to get all of this stuff done. That’s the chaos. And, and it’s, it’s a, it’s a sense of overwhelm. It’s things slipping through the cracks. It’s just never enough hours in the day. And where it really comes from when you get right down to it, it, it actually comes from inadequate systems and processes. Mm-Hmm. And that’s not a, you know, it’s not a sexy thing people like to think about or talk about. And, you know, it’s a lot more fun to talk about sales and marketing and frankly
RV (04:37):
No one, no one, no one puts on their vision board systems Exactly. Processes, . Exactly. Like not on the vision board.
CM (04:45):
Exactly. Exactly. And, and frankly, you know, we, as you know, we built up Infusionsoft as the leader in marketing automation that was about doing all of the marketing and sales stuff. But what we, what we learned over the over time was, it’s one thing to grow your top line revenue. It’s a very different thing to have your bottom line take home pay bank account, and more importantly, totally your time and the sense of control and the freedom that you actually feel in the business. I mean, you, you and I both know this, I’m sure a lot of listeners are hearing this, it is crazy how many people get to a certain revenue mark in their business. Seven figures is a real, is a real common one. People think, man, I’m gonna get to that seven figure mark and now, you know, think I’m gonna have, there’s this sense of what they’re going to have in terms of bottom line, take home pay, time, freedom, control. Mm-Hmm. . And almost invariably they get to that point and they’re like, whoa. Well, I guess I just gotta, you know, I don’t have all those things, so I guess I just gotta make it to 2 million, 3 million, 4 million. And, and the pattern is that what people think they’re going to get in terms of profit, take home pay freedom. It’s, it just keeps moving out further and further. And at some point you gotta ask yourself, why is that? Well, it’s because of the chaos.
RV (06:04):
Yeah. I mean, it’s, it’s funny, I, I love the pivot that you guys made from Infusionsoft is marketing automation to keep, is business automation. ’cause That really is true about us. Like, even our stories, like we are not, honestly, we, we’ve never really been the best marketers in the world. Like we’ve never had millions of followers. We’ve just made millions of dollars. Mm-Hmm. in revenue and profit. Mm-Hmm. . And, and I think a huge part of that was because we saw the light early of how to take the, the power of keep and automate, not the just the marketing, but automate all the operations. And if you don’t, you know, if, if you just think about it for a second, you go, man, if you automate just your marketing and you really grow all your revenue, but the rest of your business processes are a mess, you literally are going to add more chaos.
RV (06:58):
Like, you’re just Right. You’re the, you’re adding more customers, more disorganization, more problems, more complexity, more challenges. It’s like you really need to have the backend tight and, and, and cleaned up. So I love where you guys made that pivot from marketing automation as Infusionsoft to business automation is key. ’cause It really is, I think your, your, your bread and butter now, you talk about six keys in the book. Okay. Yeah. So, so, so conquer the chaos. WW walk us through a couple of those. Yeah. Because I, I think, you know, to me your message is really clear, how do I conquer chaos and achieve freedom through business automation? Right. Right.
CM (07:45):
That’s it in a nutshell. Yep. So, so
RV (07:47):
Walk us through then, like kind of the six, you know, kind of keys of, of how to actually execute that.
CM (07:53):
Yeah, you bet. The, the keys are actually, so the, the book is Conquer Cast, the Six Keys to Success for Entrepreneurs. And the first three keys are actually personal. And the second three are business with automation being, you know, the crucial show. You know, kind of the crux of it. But the reason I wrote it that way is because after more than two decades of working with entrepreneurs very closely and seeing, seeing what their lives look like as they, and
RV (08:16):
How many customers have you guys had?
CM (08:18):
We, we’ve got over 200,000 users of our software. We’ve got over 20,000 businesses using the software. And over the years we’ve probably worked with 50,000, you know, so, so we’ve
RV (08:29):
Worked 50,000 entrepreneurs. Like you, when you say I’ve worked with entrepreneurs, it’s not like, oh, I’ve spent time around a couple of ’em. Like it’s
CM (08:35):
No, and it’s working closely with them, seeing very closely their business, getting to know them. I mean, the number of mastermind groups and, and conferences and coaching, coaching meetings. I mean, you, I’ve, I’ve worked so closely with entrepreneurs and what I see over and over and over is something that just compelled me to write the personal part of the book. Because what I see is the business becomes so dominant that, that their, their lives get out of whack. And they, over time, they subtly and gradually make trade-offs in favor of the business that cost them what they care about the most in the end. And so, you know, when you see people’s financial family health, you know, when you see those things really melt down and, and some of the most, you know, very, very well known entrepreneurs that, you know, I, you know, people would know if I said their names and I see them closely, and I see them as clients and friends, and, and then I see it over and over and over with small businesses everywhere.
CM (09:38):
And I’ve, I’ve experienced it, I call it the dark side of entrepreneurship. And it is that it’s not just the, the, the struggles of entrepreneurship, it’s actually also when the business is very successful and the way that it dominates the life of the individual. So the first three keys are the personal keys, and they are actually about conquering the chaos inside getting your, getting your per getting personal life. Right. Because when I say the six keys to success for entrepreneurs, I define success right at the beginning of the book, let’s get on the same page what we mean by, by entrepreneurial success. And I say it’s balanced growth in your business and personal life that produces freedom. And if you’re, if you don’t get that balanced part, right you know, I’ve seen a lot of people who are really excited about their business goals and achieving them, and, and then they end up having great regrets. And I just think that’s a travesty. And I don’t , you know, I don’t wanna see entrepreneurs do that. So, so, and
RV (10:30):
I think, I think a really good point that people probably don’t realize is that even if your business is successful, it can be a catalyst for your personal life failing. Yes. Like, I don’t, I don’t think people equate that. Right. So just to sort of underscore that point is to go, man, it’s hard to make a business successful. And even if you pull that off, like it could, that it could, it could work against you in your personal life and, and they don’t have to though.
CM (11:00):
That’s right. If you’re intentional about it and you set it up. So the three, the three, the first three keys are personal and it’s mindset, vision for your life and rhythm of execution, mindset, vision, rhythm. When you put the, when you get the mindset right from the beginning, get the vision straight. Now the business fits into your life vision. I’m not talking about the business vision here. I’m talking about the life vision. Now the business fits into the vision. And then a, you know, how do you execute that in a way that works for your business, your life, your, your personal life in all areas? So that’s, I feel very passionate about that because I’ve spent so much time working with entrepreneurs and seeing the pitfalls of it and experience it personally, real, you know, recognizing and kind of flirting with that dark side and understanding how challenging that can be.
CM (11:42):
And when you get the, the business keys, right? The business keys are strategy, automation, and leadership. When you get the business keys right, it dramatically improves the personal side and fuels your life vision. And when you get the life vision right, and you have your rhythm of execution going, it dramatically improves your business so that you’re not getting burned out, overwhelmed, redlining at work. So that’s, those are the six keys. You know, the, you said it really well. The, the summary of it though is how do you go from chaos to freedom through automation? And, you know, I I start with the personal side to make sure we’re not automating and making a business successful that doesn’t fit into the bigger picture of the entrepreneur’s life.
RV (12:20):
Yeah. Well, and I, I mean, I, you know, I, I can appreciate, ’cause you know, you’re the CEO of, of, of, of, of a, a company that sells automation software, which by the way, I am on the board of, you all should know that. Right? So this is, this is something that I, I have joined the board of, and I’m, I am a proud member of it, and I feel honored and lucky to, to, to be a part of it because I do believe in it. But I really appreciate that you don’t just go like, oh, automation is the only thing. Like the book’s not about automation. It’s going no, there’s the mindset, there’s the whole personal life, there’s strategy leadership. Like, and, and also, you know, there’s other, like, there’s other parts of this, and I think sometimes people, sometimes people probably errantly go, Ooh, I bought the automation tool, now my business is just gonna work on magic.
RV (13:05):
And it’s like, no, like, get the strategy right. Like , like, there’s a little more to it. You can’t just buy the tool, like right. You, you gotta get your mindset right, and you gotta have your thinking. I mean, really, I think what’s powerful about Keap is that if you have clear thinking and you have clear processes, it gives you a way to put automation in place. If you’re That’s right. If your thinking is chaotic and your processes are chaotic, like you have to do that work first. You can’t just automate a pi a pile of mess. Would you be open to telling us the story about when you almost left Keap Sure. What your wife said to you? I, I, you, you know, talking about the dark side of entrepreneurship, but I probably, I probably should have asked you this before your permission, but keep, you know, Infusionsoft made a really big run and came really hard and f basically invented a whole space. Yep. But you guys have had your own, you know, sort of challenges over, you know, some, a se you’ve had a season of challenges and there was a, you told me a story about your wife and you actually thinking about leaving the company. Are you open to, would you share that here?
CM (14:17):
You bet. Well, there was the early days when you know, the, when, when we were just trying to get the business going. And then there was a season where I, I I talk about the dark side, where we had kinda lost control investors, board members, you know, lot, lots of things had happened and I was considering leaving at that point. So, which, which of those two do you want me to tell is
RV (14:37):
That Well, I, I, I want, I want, it could be the, it could be the first one too, but, but I wanted, the startup story is powerful, but it’s, it’s really the second one that I, I, I wanted to hear because, and this is to to you, to the thing you said earlier. You guys were very successful. You were very big. You brought on, you know, a lot of money from really smart people and, and you had a lot of things going. And even then you had a challenging season. And when you were, you were, you were thinking about leaving the company and your wife said something to you, and it always stuck with me. And I’m going like, oh my gosh, every entrepreneur needs to hear, hear this story. ’cause I, I think what she said was so wise.
CM (15:17):
Yeah. So here’s, here’s what happened. I’ll give the, the, the background for people to understand. And those who know Infusionsoft and know keep may, may appreciate this, but you know, we built Infusionsoft as the leader in marketing automation, and we got to a point where we, we really wanted to go down market. You know, we heard, we heard the cries of Confusionsoft from people who, you know, like, oh, it’s too complicated for me. And a lot of that came from solopreneurs. You know, 90% of the small business market is solopreneurs who they really don’t have the problem of chaos the way that we solve it. You know, they don’t, they don’t have a lot going on yet where things are slipping through the cracks. Instead, they’re trying to kind of figure out, well, what should their marketing be? And they’re trying to figure out who, who is their customer?
CM (16:00):
What is their offering? And that’s a different thing. If you don’t, you don’t necessarily need automation when you don’t yet have a business that’s bringing in customers. So we mistakenly tried to go down market to appease those folks. Now, by the way, in all, in all fairness, we also needed to do some things to simplify the user experience of our software. And we’ve done that. And, you know, that that was a, a, that was the fruitful part of what we did. But the, the, the not so fruitful part of what we did is we tried to go down market to serve those solopreneurs, and it really hurt the business. We were really struggling like crazy. And so we, we tried to bring in some people from the outside that could help lead, lead the, the operations. These were, you know, smart Silicon Valley folks, and the board became enamored with them. And shoot, I was too initially. And, and after some time I recognized, well, this isn’t working. And the board said, no, no, no, let them keep doing their thing. And I became sort of a figurehead of the company, but the whole company was being operated by the COO and I wasn’t allowed to make any changes. And it was incredibly frustrating. And it went on for almost four years.
RV (17:09):
Wow. Because this is your baby. This is your blood sweat. Yeah. You bootstrapped it. I mean, you guys bootstrapped like the first seven, 8 million in revenue, right?
CM (17:16):
That’s exactly right. Bootstrapped seven or 8 million. Then we brought on investors and, and I, and I appreciate, you know, I appreciate the investors and I appreciate all the learnings and, but we got to a point where I was very, very frustrated and, and frankly, you know, just to be candid, I was bitter and I was angry, and I wasn’t taking accountability for where we were. I was, I was pretty upset. And about three years into that ordeal I told Charise, I can’t do it anymore. I just can’t, I I can’t keep doing this, watching the company struggle like crazy and not being able to do what I think needs to be done, and I’m just done. And she said, you know, and I was, and I was angry with the board. I was angry with the, the, the new management team that had come in and she said, look, if you wanna quit, quit, but don’t do it when you’re mad. And I, boom,
RV (18:09):
There,
CM (18:10):
,
RV (18:10):
Boom. I mean, that is a, that is a wisdom bomb right there. You can say it again. Say it again.
CM (18:19):
If you wanna quit, quit. But don’t do it when you’re mad.
RV (18:22):
Oh, man, that’s so good.
CM (18:24):
And what it did, was it, you know, I, the, the, the funny thing was, I, I kind of, and I’d been, I’d been kind of living in this place where half the time I felt like quitting and half the time I was being threatened to be fired by the board. And so it was just such a tricky place to be. It’s so hard to describe it. But what happened when she said that to me was that I began to really be conscious of how I was showing up and how, you know, how my, how my emotions about the situation were affecting things. And then I went to work on that, and I went and I started working with my coach again. And he helped me see my part in the whole situation and helped me to take accountability for things. He helped me to be grateful, you know, because most situ, and, and I, I, when he first said, you gotta get, you gotta start, get, becoming more grateful for your board.
CM (19:15):
Mm-Hmm. And I looked at him like, are you freaking kidding me? Like, do you realize what I’m going through ? And he was like, no, usually you would get fired. And so the fact that you haven’t, yeah, the fact that you have an opportunity still to be a part of this company that you love, you should be grateful. So I started feeling my heart with gratitude. And then the last part was I started really humbling myself. And those, those three characteristics I’ve learned are, they are magic. When we get into problems, those characteristics are accountability, gratitude, and humility. Mm-Hmm. . And when we start to embrace those things, because entrepreneurs get into these cycles. We all do this, this happens, it happens in our lives, happens in our businesses. But those were, those were the things that helped us to then get the business on track. I got, I got, I was able to regain control of the day-to-Day operations. We started to reposition the business on the right customer and getting us to business automation. But all of that started with a comment from Cherise that got me to look in the mirror and start working on humility, gratitude and accountability.
RV (20:23):
I mean, that’s just so good. I mean, that’s when you go like, man, you know, God, God put a strong, faithful, wise woman in your life. And, and I think that’s the other thing is like, people don’t realize, like to this conversation, it’s like your personal life and your, and your own mindset. Like to, to the chapter, the, the first of your six keys, like your mindset, it matters. It matters tremendously. Yes. I want to ask you a little bit about rhythm. Okay. Because to me, automation sort of naturally follows rhythm. Yeah. If it’s like, if, if I can figure out a rhythm, then I can automate it, and then it’s like, then it’s magic. ’cause Now, now there’s a tool in place. Yeah. How do you, how do you find your rhythm? Especially when it’s like, you know, it’s clunky in the early years, it’s totally clunky. And, and then, I mean, you got six, six kids, is it six,
CM (21:17):
Six kids and six, six grandkids.
RV (21:19):
I mean, you got six kids, six grandkids. You’re like build, building this company. Like you’re also building, you’re a personal brand and writing books and stuff. You go, how do you find that rhythm in both the business and your personal life?
CM (21:33):
Yeah. You know what this is, this is one of the things that I’m most passionate about because I discovered it on the bus, on the business side first. And we, you know, if you’re familiar with the concepts in mastering the Rockefeller habits that Vern Harnish, Vern Harnish teaches some of the other some of the other great thought leaders that helped us learn these things were people like Jim Collins e even some of the things from Michael Gerber early on, we, we, we basically used a number of different consultants and thought leaders to create a rhythm of how we set our strategy and execute our strategy in the business. And in, in a nutshell, it was getting the, the strategy plan clear, and then having a daily, monthly, weekly, quarterly, annual, three year long-term approach. So you get the long-term vision, and then you work it all the way back to where what you’re doing each day ladders into your goals for the long-term.
CM (22:33):
And we, we started doing that 20 years ago you know, from near like like in year one of the business. And I loved it. And then I started learning some similar principles on the personal side and began doing coaching with, with personal coaches Dan Sullivan at Strategic Coach devouring all kinds of things from different people like like Michael Hyatt and others that you, that, that speak and teach on this stuff. And I started to put a personal rhythm in place that sort of mirrored my business rhythm. And, and as I began to execute that many years ago, I found that it was, it was magic, you know, especially for entrepreneurs who tend to be a little A DHD, if you don’t create some kind of a rhythm, it can become, you know, just the game of the latest distraction, you know, this shiny object.
CM (23:28):
And so getting that rhythm in place. But, but the real art of it though, and the reason why I call it the rhythm of execution, is that it’s not a rut. It’s not a fixed routine. Sometimes those, those words can get, get, you know, routine can get used interchangeably, but rhythm has, it’s got magic to it. It’s got, it’s got art to it, it’s got joy to it. And so the rhythm of execution is about setting up your life vision and then executing it to a, a, a daily, weekly, monthly, quarterly, annual long-term sort of execution cadence. But it’s not rote. It’s not it’s not you know, if you just turn it into complete ha habitual autopilot, that doesn’t quite work. So rhythm is the right way to think of it. And you know, in a nutshell, I have a very beautiful morning experience. You know, I call it my Morning mastery. And I have a weekly evaluation process and a quarterly retreat. And those three, I call those three things, the three, the three transformative habits. You look at any, any person’s morning routine, weekly evaluation, planning, intentionality approach, and a quarterly rhythm that connects their short term to their long term. You look at someone’s practices around those three things, and I believe it’s almost as good as a crystal ball to their future.
RV (24:51):
Man. I love it. I love it. Well, y’all, I, I, you know, this just a, a sample of clay. He’s, you could tell he’s such a brilliant guy, and I, I’m, I’m so inspired by him and what he stands for, the way they run the company, obviously him and his personal life, and his wife. I’m a huge fan of his wife, even though we’ve never met just because, but because of her, her counsel. We’re gonna be telling y’all more about Instant Automation Toolkit. If you wanna, if you want to get a preview of that or you wanna learn about that, you can go to brand builders group.com/automation, brand builders group.com/automation. On, in terms of Clay’s book, the book is called Conquer the Chaos, right? Six Keys to Helping Entrepreneurs Succeed or, or, sorry, six keys to Success for Entrepreneurs. You got it. Is there anything else, you know, clay, that you would, would direct people or that you wanna leave people with?
CM (25:46):
Yeah, you can go to conquer the Chaos book.com, and there’s a bunch of free resources on there. And then obviously, you know, if you’re interested in getting through the chaos, the real trick is you’ve gotta understand your strategy behind it. And you can either do a consulting session, you know, with someone who can help you map your business and strategize and do that. You know, we do that at Keap, or in a better scenario, you work with someone like Rory who’s got the strategy all set up for you, and you can go implement that. That’s a, a, a better way than having to sort of recreate it yourself. So, you know, I love what you guys have created with Instant Automation Toolkit. I think it’s a great place for people to go to get resources to learn more about how to automate their business. And then the book conquer the cast book.com.
RV (26:32):
I love it. Well, clay man, thank you for what you do. I mean, it’s, it’s interesting to hear the hard parts of some of your, your story, and I think that’s so encouraging for all the entrepreneurs who are, are listening because look at, look at the difference that Clay has made, and his wife and his family, and the, the fact that they’ve been able to survive it, the tool that they’ve created in the world and their team, and all the sacrifices their team has made. And, and there’s tens of thousands of business owners like me and aj who have had our lives transformed by the sacrifices that they have made. And so, your work matters. Your small business matters, and it, it, it, it, it cascades and makes an impact in clay. That’s certainly true for you, man. So we love you. We’re praying for you. We believe in you. And thanks for being here. Thanks, Roy. Great to be with you.

Ep 509: 10 Books You Need to Read with AJ Vaden

AJV (00:02):
All right. This is a, a super sweet, quick highlight of what I would call my entrepreneur bookshelf. What are the 10 books that you should read if you are an entrepreneur or consider yourself an entrepreneur at heart, right? So you could be a solopreneur, small business owner indirect sales, real estate agent, whatever it is. But you have that entrepreneurial spirit about you. So here you go. Here are my top 10 picks for what I believe that you should know or that you should read if you are an entrepreneur to help you grow in your business. So, number one, these are in no particular order, the Psychology of Money by Morgan Hausel. Number two, nothing to prove by Jenny Allen. Number three, hidden Potential by Adam Grant. Number four, on reasonable hospitality Will Guidara one of my top three books of all time. Number five, extreme Ownership by Jocko Willink and Leif Babin.
AJV (01:06):
Number six, the Ruthless Elimination of Hurry by John Mark Comer. I would say this is one of the books that I would reread every single year, ’cause you need it that much. Number seven procrastinate on Purpose by the one and only my husband, Rory Vaden. It’s not in here because he’s my husband. It’s in here ’cause it’s that good. Number nine, buy Back Your Time by Dan Martel. And number 10, leaders Eat Last by Simon Sinek. And I also have a, a bonus one for the Bookshelf, which is Take the Stairs also by Rory Vaden. And it didn’t make the top 10 because I’m calling it a bonus because I think it should be a mandatory read. Regardless if you’re an entrepreneur or not, take the stairs is universal in nature and should be read by every human being.
AJV (01:55):
It doesn’t matter if you’re 10 years old or a hundred years old, you’re in business or you’re a homemaker. It doesn’t matter. That’s universally important. It’s the only reason it wasn’t on my top 10 as an entrepreneur bookshelf. It would be on my top 10 for life. Everyone needs it. Now really quickly, why these top 10 books? There are, there’s three different themes on all of these books. The first theme is money. And if you’re an entrepreneur, that’s just something you’re gonna talk about. And I think learning both the tactical and financial side as well as the emotional side of money is a really important part of what we must do as business owners so that we can rule over the money and not let the money rule us, right? That’s the first theme in these books. The second theme in these books is time, right? So money and time, those are not in order, per se. Time is the only limited resource that we all have. We all have 60 minutes in an hour. We all have 60 seconds in a minute. We all only get 24 hours in a day. We all only get 365
AJV (02:58):
Days in a year. That’s not different for any of us. Money changes. Time does not. And so what are we gonna do with the time that we’ve been given? What are we gonna do with the time that we have with the, you know, I’m gonna call it nine hours that you work every day, 40 hours that you work every week. I know that’s not true for everybody, but, you know, status quo, what do you do with the time that you have? How do you make those decisions? How do you decide what is for you? What is not for you? What is a priority? What happens now? What happens later? And who gets it? Right? Who gets your time? That is why that is the second biggest theme in this. So you’ve got money and you’ve got time. And the third, I would say the third category is people, right?
AJV (03:40):
And that includes you. So the three categories we’re talking about in these, you know, 11 books are time, money, and people, and it’s people including yourself, right? How you view yourself as an entrepreneur, where you put your worth your identity. Where does that lie? As well as how do you cur curate culture with your team? How do you love your team? Well, how do you, how do you be unreasonably, unreasonably hospitable to your customers or prospective customers? How do you just love people really? Well? How do you build an an amazing team and cultivate culture and, and, and build strong team players and hire, recruit, retain? Like, how do you do all of this with people? Those are the three themes that I think every entrepreneur needs to learn, master and spend time in time, money and people. And those are the hearts and the themes behind each of these books that I just shared with you. So those are my top 10 books. And they all have to do with time, money, and people. So if you’re an entrepreneur or consider yourself an entrepreneurial spirit, these will resonate you. These, these books were built for you. So check ’em out, give ’em a read and let me know what you think.

Ep 508: My Entrepreneur Bookshelf with AJ Vaden

AJV (00:02):
Hey everybody, and welcome to a special summer edition of the Influential Personal Brand podcast, AJ Vaden here. And today we’re gonna be doing something a little bit different and unique. And instead of having a guest on the show, I am going to have a solo episode highlighting not just my summer reads, but what I would consider my top 10 books that you should read if you are in business for yourself. So, whether you call yourself an entrepreneur, solopreneur, a small business owner, perhaps you’re in direct sales, or you just want to aspire to grow into a, a time in your life where you are doing your own thing, or perhaps you just want to be better at being a leader or your own professional development, wherever it is. I am, I’m kind of calling this episode the Entrepreneur’s Bookshelf, and it’s not just for entrepreneurs, but really for someone who has that entrepreneurial mindset, that’s really who it’s for.
AJV (01:08):
It’s for the person who was looking to grow in business and in leadership. And a lot of this is widespread in Universal, regardless of what you do. But over the last 20 years, which it’s kind of hard to say that out loud, I cannot believe that I have actually been in business for 20 years. But there, there’s a collection of books, some oldies but goodies some newer ones, some that you will likely know, have heard of or even have read, and, and maybe a few that are brand new to you. And what I have found is that over the last 20 years, there are 10 books that stand out to me that I refer to constantly. I recommend constantly. And also it’s like even when I was going through all of my books, these are the ones that look more like workbooks than they did like books.
AJV (02:00):
These are the ones that had dozens and dozens of dog years highlights, stars, underlying circles notes. And even looking through my phone where I keep a lot of my like, kind of like recap notes these are the ones that stand out to me. These are the ones that I remember. They are memorable. I have used them, and some of them have transformed me as a person, as a leader, and some of them very uniquely and specifically have transformed how we do business at Brand Builders Group. So, without further ado I’m going to jump right in as a summer special edition of what I would consider the top 10 books that you should read or you should know about if you are an entrepreneur. And these are in no particular order. Some of them I have the hard copies and some of them I’m just going to have to refer to the audio book version that I did. But these are
AJV (02:59):
My top 10 and what I would consider books that you should read, that you should know about. Number one, it’s The Psychology of Money by Morgan Housel. So if you’re watching this I’m holding a, a picture of the book. This is one of the ones that I actually read, not listened to. And one of the things that I love about going back through these is like, how much of them are highlighted and everything. And here’s what I would say of why I think this book is so important. It’s the subtitle is Timeless Lessons on Wealth, greed and Happiness. And what I love this what I love about this book is it is not about the tactical aspects of how to make money, save money, or invest money. It’s about the emotional side of money, of what grit does it have in your life, and how does that emotional side actually dictate how you make it, save it, and spend it and invest it.
AJV (03:59):
And what I love when I look back about this book and the particular lessons that it taught me is that nothing should be done in extremes, right? And I think a lot of times as entrepreneurs or business owners and or just as humans, we get all kinds of tips and information on, you know, how do you get rich fast? How do you make money while you sleep? How do you, you know, build a million or a hundred million or billion dollar empire with the least amount of work possible? And or the other thing that we hear all the time is, you know, work hard, save lots, retire early. And there’s just something to every single one of those sayings that I fundamentally don’t agree with, and I don’t believe in. I personally don’t for myself believe in retirement. I believe that way beyond retirement age that I will continue to work because one, I love it, but because I believe that there is purpose in what I do.
AJV (05:04):
And the whole concept of retirement is somewhat a phenomenon. And only really did it start to exist in the last, what, 75 years. Like prior to that, there was no such thing as retirement. And not saying that people should enjoy their golden years, but why not enjoy them with the utmost wisdom and the utmost life experiences. And it’s kind of like at the peak of our learning we look back and go, okay, we’ve done all this work, we’ve saved all this money, and now we’re, we’re going to leave the workforce. And it’s like you’re kind of at your peak opportunity to mentor people to share your wisdom. And this book isn’t just about retirement but it’s about the way that we make, save, spend and invest to get to this point of life where we are no longer contributing in a way that we have maximum potential to contribute.
AJV (06:03):
What I also love is the way that it talks about this concept of, of richness and, and wealth and redefining really what that is in terms of money, but more importantly outside of money. And that is really the heart. And why I love this book is that money clearly is necessary to live. And there’s nothing wrong with having it. There’s nothing wrong with spending it. But it cannot have a hold on your life. It cannot be the number one reason of why we make decisions. It it cannot be the ruler of our life. We have to rule over it not the other way around. And so the psychology of money really helped me let go of some of the false beliefs that I had about money and investing and spending and saving. Because it, it is a book about like all the things, it talks about investing and spending and saving and making.
AJV (07:00):
So don’t get me wrong, it is not anti any of that. But at the core, it’s making sure that the decisions we make when it comes to money are not making money King of our life over family, God or, you know, just even yourself, right? And I think that is why I think this is so important, knowing that money is a tool and it is not a ruler, it’s a tool and we have to rule over it. So psychology of Money, number one. Number two is Traction by Gina Wickman. And I would say this is a entrepreneur’s guide to getting organized in your business. The subtitle of this book is Get a Grip On Your Business. And here’s what I love, and this is definitely one of those books you can even like look at this if you can, if you’re watching this versus listening like every other page is dogeared.
AJV (07:56):
I’ve got bookmarks and every, and here’s what I would say about this, is this really outlines how to start the operational side of your business. And this is just kind of one of those things. This is the opposite of the psychology of money. This is extraordinarily tactical with lots of step one, two, and three. This is how you outline your meeting. This is how you do an org chart. These are how you do job descriptions. These are how you run your meetings. These are how you set goals. This is how you get the team on the same page. It’s extremely tactical, extremely framework oriented and it really works more like a, a workbook than it does a book. And it goes through financial strategy, marketing strategy, operational strategy. And I really do believe this is one of the fundamental things that has helped us in terms of operations at Brand Builders Group.
AJV (08:54):
I picked this book up probably six or seven years ago when I joined eo, which is the ENT Entrepreneurs Organization. And a ton of people follow EOS which is kind of like the guide tool of traction. But I really started putting it into place at Brain Builders Group about five years ago when I realized like we got a whole bunch of people running in different directions, and we all have different priorities, and there’s not an overarching priority of where is everyone running, right? And instead of having some people go left, some go right, some going forward, some going backward, it’s like we needed to pull all of that together so that everyone was running in the same direction. And we run hard and we run fast, but we were not running in the same direction, right? And it, it felt like you were like, you know, being drug between four horses being quartered.
AJV (09:47):
And when we started doing traction, not that it has worked perfectly, but it has given us a a format. It has given us a tool where we can all speak the same language. We all talk about rocks, right? We have quarterly rocks. We all decide on those together. We then subdivide them by department and role. And we know that once we make these decisions, and this is the most important part, if we all agree on the decisions we make together, then we know what always takes precedent, what always is a priority amongst the other priorities, right? And if you’re in a fast growing company or a startup per se, then everything can feel like a priority until you say, no, this is the priority. And everything else sub is subservient to this priority. And I think that’s one of the things that I will mention in my next book that I’m gonna talk about which is procrastinate on purpose.
AJV (10:45):
You cannot have priorities, you can only have priority, right? That’s singular. And that’s what I think traction really helps you do as a small business owner, as an entrepreneur, is go, what are the task, the priorities that make up the primary priority that we’re all running towards? And how does everything else fit in its place? How do we talk about it? How do we operationalize it? How do we have meetings about it? How do we get everyone on the same page? So it is a very tactical workbook for anyone who needs a little organization in their business, right? So Traction, Gino Wickman which would lead me to my third, which is Procrastinate on purpose. Shameless plug, this is my husband’s book, Rory Vaden. And it is similar to the Psychology of Money in terms of what so many so many time management books talk about are the, the tacticals and the tips and techniques, which I do have another book that we’re gonna talk about that talks about that when it comes to productivity and time management.
AJV (11:53):
But what I love about Rory’s book, procrastinate on Purpose, you know, five permissions to Multiply Your Time, is it’s about the emotional side of time management. And I, I love the psychology part, the emotional side of a lot of these books, because that’s usually what we’re not tapped into, right? We’re we’re being taught all these new technologies and all these tools and all these tips and these tricks, and to-do lists and schedules and apps and all the things. And at the end of the day, those things only work. They only work. Same thing with the money, books, psychology, money, like all the investing strategies only work once you understand the emotional drivers of how you spend your money in that book. But in this book, procrastinating on Purpose, it’s the emotional drivers of how you spend your time. And both of these book made my top 10 because time and money are pretty much most commonly talked about things in business.
AJV (12:52):
At least in our business. It’s what do we have time for and what do we have money for, right? It’s what do we wanna spend our time on? What do we wanna spend our money on? It’s where do we need to save time? Where do we need to save money? Where do we need to invest time? Where do we need to invest money? It’s time and money. Time and money are also the two most common objections in sales, right? Time and money show up everywhere. And that should tell us if it is everywhere personally and professionally, we need to invest adequate amounts of time and understanding both the, you know, tactical side, but just as importantly, the emotional side, right? There is a logic to money and time. There is an emotion component though, to time and money. And what I love about Rory’s book is one, he’s, he’s so gifted a god give and talent and consolidating lots of ideas and thoughts into simple processes and frameworks that visualize how things go together.
AJV (13:51):
And so his focus funnel is one of the most probably talked about things. He has a very widespread Ted talk called How to Multiply Your Time on this. If you wanna get the highlighted version, even though I do recommend reading the book. But the focus funnel is a simple way of processing where you need to spend time. And I’ll, I’ll go through it really quickly. It’s like, you know, step one, when a task comes onto my plate at the first decision I need to make is, can this be eliminated? Right? And if it can’t be eliminated, then can it be automated? And if it can’t be automated, then can it be delegated? Okay? And if it can’t be delegated, can it be procrastinated on or does it become a priority? Right? And a priority means it has to be done. Now, procrastinate means it does need to be done, it just doesn’t need to be done now.
AJV (14:45):
But just walking through all the tasks in my life of what are the things that I’m spending time on that I should not be spending time on one because it shouldn’t be done at all, but I’m doing it for some reason, or it needs to be done. But there is a system that can be, it can automate it, or it, it does need to be done and it can’t be automated, but there is someone else who can and should be doing it. And that’s probably where I struggle, right? I struggle from the, I can do it better syndrome, or I can do it faster syndrome. It’s the curse of knowledge because I’ve been in the business a long time. Many business owners have this. And the truth is that’s actually only true for a short amount of time because once someone else is hired and trained and efficient in it, they actually can do it better than you and faster than you because they do it more than you, right?
AJV (15:34):
But that does take time, money and energy resources to pull that off. But it’s all about investing time into something now that will give you more time later. And that is the heart and the essence of the book is helping you understand when you say the words, I don’t have time or I’m so busy understanding why, where does that come from? Because those are all choices that we are making. So what are the choices that are causing responses or feelings like that? And then what can we do about it? One of my favorite books of all time, not just because my husband wrote it, but because we all struggle with those two words. I’m busy. And this will help eliminate those from your vernacular. Maybe not immediately, but if you follow it, eventually, eventually those start to fade and going, it’s, no, I’m not busy.
AJV (16:29):
These are choices I made. This is a priority, or I’m gonna do something about it. Right? okay, moving right along. On the same kind of topic of time management, there’s Rory’s book, procrastinate on Purpose, which is more of the emotional side. That is more of our choices that we make and what do we do about that. But then there’s another book by Dan Martel, don’t have a copy of it to share to show a picture of, because it was an audio book for me, but it’s called Buy Back Your Time. And to me as an entrepreneur, this is one of the best tactical books of systems and processes of how to do things like automate and delegate and prioritize. This is so, so helpful. Buy back your time. If you are in a place where you are actually ready to start delegating where you can afford staff and you have the time and energy, or even if you don’t have the time and energy, but you can afford it, and you have to make the time and energy, it is an amazing tool of working with a team and getting things off of your plate and how to get it on their plates.
AJV (17:39):
And I’m not talking about just an executive assistant or chief of staff, even though it does go into great detail about finding the person, hiring the person, training the person, getting them up to speed, how to meet with them. I love it. I use it with my chief of staff. It is a very important tactical tool in how I run my personal and professional life. But also, more importantly, how do you just get your team members up to speed, right? And this is a really great book about operationalizing systems, specifically SOPs, right? And you should only have to teach something one time. Let me repeat that. Dan talks about how you should only have to teach something one time, because if you do it the right way, you only have to do it one time. And the right way isn’t training a person, it’s building a process.
AJV (18:22):
It’s documenting an SOP. And he gives an amazing formula of how to build SOPs that are quick, efficient, and what the people will actually use using video tutorials and keeping all of your SOPs two pages or shorter. That’s right, two pages. We actually have some SOPs that are 56 pages at Brand Builders Group, and we are working our tails off on how do we get those down to two or three pages with bullet points and video tutorials. And that is a huge part of, it’s one thing to spend all this time into building SOPs and training people, but if the people leave and nobody will use the SOPs, that was time wasted. So how do you get it right the first time? And you only have to train something once because when you train it, you’re actually building the SOP, you’re building the video tutorial, so you never have to do it again.
AJV (19:10):
Such an amazingly tactical book and how to buy your time back, right? And that is buying it back through processes and SOPs and also people, so people and processes buy back your time. Dan Martel, such a good book. All right. I am staying on this kind of time management train for a second because it’s not just that important to me. It’s that important to all of us. This next book is one of the most life changing and business changing books of my entire life, and is also by one of my favorite authors. And this book is called The Ruthless Elimination of Hurry, by John Mark Comer. And I have read almost every book he has written, but this was the first one. This is when I fell in love with his writing. And I fell in love with it because it changed my life.
AJV (20:00):
This is, this is a book that I can literally point back to and go based on the changes that I made in my life. I am a new and better person. I am a new and better mom, a new and better wife, a new and better leader, a new and better business owner. And I can also trace back the quarter that I read this book in 2022, which was Spring of 2022, quarter two. I read this book and had an epiphany that we were just doing too much. ’cause At the end of the day, a a hurry is a byproduct of being over committed, of trying to do too much. And I had this epiphany of I was feeling burnout and going, I don’t know if I can continue running at this speed. I, I don’t know if I have it in me.
AJV (20:49):
I don’t, I don’t know if I want to have it in me. And after reading this book, I sat down and created a brand new business plan for Brand Builders Group. This was four years after being in business. And we were addicted to saying Yes, yes, we can do that. Yes, we’ll figure that out. Yes, we’ll add that. Yes, we can try to do that for you. Yes, yes, yes. Because one, we love ideas. We’re little idea factories, but we also, we, we wanna be a place of innovation and change and listening to our customers. And we were really plagued with saying yes to every opportunity. And I rewrote a business plan for Brand Builders Group and the business plan, including cutting half of our offerings. And that was scary. It included changing our pricing structure, how we priced it, what we offered how we did things. And we went from seven service offerings down to three in the matter of three months. And over the next year, we doubled our business.
AJV (21:59):
Not only did our business double in terms of revenue, but our business actually doubled in terms of client count and employee size. And that was pretty extreme growth for us. ’cause We were experiencing 10% growth, 15% growth year over year. And from 2022 to 2023, we doubled in business, doubled in size, both clients employees and in revenue. And I can trace, trace that change back to implementing some of the things that were ahas for me from reading this book. The Ruthless Elimination of Hurry, of How More is not better always. There is not this incessant need of always doing more, but there needs to be an incessant need of always doing better, right? Better is better, not more is better. And I’m not saying less is better. In this case, less was better. It was better for us. ’cause It allowed us to focus in on our expertise, focus in on our avatar, focus in on our service offerings and double down.
AJV (23:03):
But what it really allowed us to do is by doing less, we were allowed to do those things exceptionally better, right? And that’s what it’s about. It’s not about doing more or less per se, but it’s about choosing less so you can do it better and have it be more enjoyable and less stressful, and actually enjoy the other components of life and business. And that all stemmed from the ruthless elimination of Hurry. And I was, I was ruthless in 2022 about removing stress, anxiety, busyness, and hurry from my life. It’s probably one of the books I need to go back and read at the beginning of every year. This is, this is a reread. Like I would say this is one of those books that I would encourage a, a read every year because these are the things that we forget so often and we get caught up in the rat race once again.
AJV (23:56):
But this is one of the most impactful and significant books of my life. The Ruthless Elimination of Harry by John Mark Comer. So if that is not a testimonial, I don’t know what is. Okay, next books are kind of taking a slightly different turn. Talked about money, talked about time and now we’re gonna talk about some other things that I think are really important. So I’ll start with leadership, right? Clearly it’s an entrepreneur bookshelf. We should have that. This is one of my favorite books on leadership. It’s Leaders Eat Last by Simon Sinek. I love this. It’s like the subtitle is why some teams pull together and others don’t. And this is an oldie. I probably read this 15 years ago, but still reference it, remember it. And you know, what I remember the most is the actual title.
AJV (24:51):
And I remember shortly after reading this book my, the first company that I was a part of went on an incentive trip. This is not Brand Builders Group, this was pre-and Builders Group. And we went to Belize and I was the part of the executive team organizing this trip for our top producers. And we just happened to go to Belize during this tropical storm . It was great timing. And I was at the checkout desk and I was making sure everyone had got, everyone else got checked in, and it was a small boutique hotel. We had pretty much reserved 50% of the rooms in this little boutique hotel on the island. And one of our top producers was checking in. And I had already checked in, and I had a king bed with my husband, Roy Vaden, who was also a business partner there.
AJV (25:39):
And I heard them tell this top producer of ours who is, you know, a guest on the trip, Hey, we are out of King Beds. Not the most convenient thing to hear as you’re checking in with your wife. We only have two double beds left. And I just saw the look that they had on each other’s faces. And I am not the hero of this story. The book is the hero of this story. And I remember reading this book and going, leaders Eat Last. And in that particular case, what it meant is leaders get the two double beds, the team gets the king bed. And I walked up and I just said, Hey, can you please swap our rooms? And it wasn’t a big deal to me at the time. It really wasn’t. It was a, a conscious decision to go, you first, me last.
AJV (26:33):
And it was a conscious decision to go, I will be the first one to step forward. And I’m gonna, I’m gonna take the bullet on this one. We can manage four nights and two double beds so that you can enjoy a trip that you earned. And again, I am not the hero in the, in the story of the book is. But doing that, what it did for the producer was probably one of the most impactful things in my life that I didn’t even expect of the gratitude and the, the, the loyalty and the thankfulness of going, you didn’t have to do that. It’s like, yeah, but I did because I, I chose to be the leader. Here I am choosing to raise my hand first to forge into battle first, to take the first risk. And that’s what you’re doing as an entrepreneur, right?
AJV (27:22):
I actually, I, I love, like on the back it says, leaders are the ones who run headfirst into the unknown. They are the ones to rush into the danger. They put their own interests aside to protect the team or to pull us into the future. Leaders would soon sacrifice what is theirs to save, what is ours. And they would never sacrifice what is ours to save what is theirs. That is what it means to be a leader. It means to choose first to go into danger headfirst into the unknown, right? And that’s just on the back of the book, right? Like, like who’s not inspired to read that? A little bit of okay, what, what does it really mean to be a leader? And in this regard, it’s, it’s choosing to put others first. And how do you do that, right? How do you do that in business?
AJV (28:09):
How do you do that in your team when there is a, a, a self-centered self nature to all of us? I, I promise you it was not my heart’s desire to give up that king bed on that trip. And at the same time, it wasn’t also the ultimate sacrifice, right? It, it was a choice of going, no, I made the decision to step into this leadership role. So I have to make the choice to also put others first. That’s what I’m choosing as a leader. And I can think of countless other times through my life, even though I may not remember all the words on the pages of this book, however, like many others, it’s dogeared throughout. And I still have bookmarks highlighting the pages that I refer back to constantly. What it, what it really is, is the reminder that as a leader, I am choosing last, I am choosing to put the team first.
AJV (29:03):
I am choosing to put others ahead of me. I’m choosing to serve them above myself, right? And not serve anyone person over the whole, that’s not what I’m saying. It actually talks a lot about that. But what are the, the micro decisions we can make every day? And what are the macro decisions that we can make that affect a whole lifespan of a business or a team or a person? And I think that’s why I love this book, and I can just, I, I, I think I probably even said, remember, leaders eat last hundreds of times over the last 15 years. And without any explanation, the team gets it, right? Other leaders get it. They’re like, yes, I understand this is a decision I made, I step into this. But reading this book helps you understand what are those micro decisions to make?
AJV (29:54):
How do you step into it and how do you do it on a daily basis, but also on a, a much larger scale. So one of my favorite leadership books, leaders Eat Last Simon Sinek. I could go on and on about it. All right, in that same vein, I know, right? I’m, I’m trying to make up some time here. Another one that I would, I would, I would call this for me, a leadership book, extreme Ownership by Jocko Willink and Le Babin. And I don’t have a physical copy because it was an audio book. And if you have read the book and haven’t listened to the audio, I would highly encourage you to do that, because I think the storytelling component of Jocko and Le and this book is so powerful, and it’s kind of like a, an audio page turner.
AJV (30:38):
Like, I remember going like, okay, I need to go on a walk, or, or I need to go on a drive so I can put this in and listen to it. It, it’s one of those things that it’s just really enjoyable to listen to the storytelling components of it, the emotional side. So, hey, wife, if you haven’t listened to it, highly encouraged, but Extreme Ownership was actually a mandatory read two years ago at Brand Builders Group. Every quarter we put a book that the entire company reads together. And Q1 of 2023 was a mandatory read of extreme ownership. And it was one of the best decisions that we ever made as a, as a company to go. One, we’re going to read books together, mandatory. And two, this book. And I think one of the things that I love about this book is, well, one, I do have mad respect for our military and Navy Seals and the stories and the lessons of leadership that come out of that.
AJV (31:35):
Because like, when I think about my daily battles in leadership, they are microscopic to the significance of the ones that these people are making in our military. And just, it puts it in perspective of when I’m stressed out about a formula on a spreadsheet of the stress that carries, and knowing that you carry someone’s life in your hands, a true life or death. And it’s a really good book on perspective of what we call stress and anxiety and where we worry in the scheme of things, right? And it’s been a great reminder to me of like, this is not a life and death situation, aj, it is okay if there was a, a, a spelling error on the PowerPoint, chill out. And at the same time, knowing that there is a power and ownership of stepping in and as a, as a leader, right?
AJV (32:31):
This is a leadership book of going, at the end of the day, someone’s gotta own it. And I’m not saying that as the entrepreneur, you own all of it, but at the end of the day you’re the business owner. It comes to you, right? You own the discipline of your team. You own the structure and the operational excellence. You own it by creating a culture of ownership. And I think this is a pH phenomenal book, both in storytelling and anecdotes and stories and examples, but also the emotional and the tactical side, which I really love. There are lots of strategic components to this paired with real life stories and examples both military speaking, but also business case studies. And I think it’s a really powerful thing to step into any business of going the end of the day, whether we succeed or fail, I’m gonna own it.
AJV (33:26):
And again, that’s for everyone in the company to have that attitude. It’s going, Hey, if this didn’t go right, I own the mistake. And if it did, I get a part of owning some of the win. Not all of it. ’cause You know, it never happens alone. But also having someone who steps in and who can quickly go, my bad, that was my mistake. I won’t have, I won’t make it again. It won’t happen again. Versus the person who’s going to, you know, pass blame, not own it, not tell, try to cover it up. This is about transparency. This is about teamwork. This is about honesty, integrity, and it’s about ownership of how do we, how do we create ownership in a task, in a project so that no one is looking around going, so who’s to blame here? And instead, everyone is going like, my part, my part got done.
AJV (34:19):
But at the end of the day, what matters most is did the thing get done? And that’s what I would recommend about this book. If you feel like you have a team where people are going, Hey, I did my part, but yet somehow the whole project didn’t get done, then we gotta, we got an ownership problem because someone’s gotta own all pieces of it. And that’s where I think teams really come together or fall apart, is for the person going, oh, no, I did my part Uhuh, that was not my department. That was not my role of going. We need a team of going, it didn’t have to be my job. I ensured it got done. It didn’t have to be my department. I’m gonna be a part of making sure it gets done right. And that’s what I love about Extreme ownership. So extreme Ownership, Jocko Willink and Le Babin, amazing book.
AJV (34:59):
And I think just really important on a cultural standpoint of do you have a team who comes together and gets stuff done, or does it fall apart? And the projects linger and deadlines extend. And if that’s it, you got an ownership problem. And this is a great book to read in that vein. Now, on that note, there’s another audio book that I love. This is a new read. I actually just read this book this year in 2024. It’s called Hidden Potential by Adam Grant. And one, i, I would say it is also to me in the leadership vein because it’s about seeking and searching for the potential within your team, right? And I actually am gonna pull up some of the quick notes that I took on this. And just to kind of give you some highlights of what I love what one person can learn proves that almost anyone can learn it if provided with the right learning opportunities and environment, right?
AJV (36:03):
And I think that’s kind of the first thing. It’s like what one person can learn proves that almost anyone can learn that too, if provided with the right learning opportunities and environment. And I think therein lies the heart of hidden potential of going, they may not believe it, you may not believe it, but if somebody else has done it, then someone else can do it. But the opportunity and the environment have to be structured in a way that allows that potential to emerge. And a part of our job as leaders is to provide those opportunities and environment, right? And I, I love that as I look at my team here at Brand Builders Group of going like, where are there opportunities of hidden potential in every single person and every role in every department? And where am I not providing the right opportunities for those things to emerge?
AJV (36:54):
And maybe that opportunity is an invitation. Maybe it’s training maybe it’s a conversation, whatever it may be, but it has opened my eyes to seeing our team and the roles we have and the gaps we have in completely new, in different ways. The second thing I would just say this is I think really important in general for someone like me who’s a little bit type A high D likes to get things done, eight on the Enneagram this is a really important one for me, is potential is not about where you start, but how far you travel. And that’s one of the things that I’ve looked back and I’m going, wow. It, it’s, it’s not about where we started, it’s about how far we’ve come. And if someone can go, you know, completely from, you know, left to right in terms of growth and change, it’s like there is potential of going, there is more to be done, right?
AJV (37:53):
And looking at the span of what people have overcome, have learned that is an enormous thing that I now pay attention to in interviews of what were they able to overcome, how far have they come from where they started? And that shows so much about work ethic and personal growth and determination and endurance and perseverance. And those are things, those are the things that I wanna build a team around, right? I also loved this whole thing. It’s like, if you’re comfortable, you’re doing it wrong to Ted Lasso quote and Hidden Potential. And I love that, and I love that as a reminder for me, for my own hidden potential. And I think one of the reasons I loved Hidden Potential so much is it wasn’t about just our team, it was about me too. It’s like, where am I comfortable? Like, where do I still have potential to grow, change and evolve as a human, as a leader, as a business owner, as a mom, as wife?
AJV (38:55):
And so Adam Grant Hidden Potential, I think this is also in line with a, it’s a, it’s a people book. It’s a leadership book. It’s about looking for intentionally and finding ways to see the hidden potential all around you and the people on your team and the people that you’re interviewing. And I think this is about exploration into how do we help people tap into what they were meant to become. And just because they aren’t, that doesn’t mean they can’t be that. And just kind of going back to that first thing, it’s like what one person has learned proves that almost anyone can learn it, provided that we create, and that there is, you know, a created opportunity and environment that allows for it. So what can we do to cultivate such an environment? I love the book. I thought it was so good.
AJV (39:44):
Okay, moving right along here, unreasonable Hospitality. This is also a newer read for me, unreasonable Hospitality, will Gera is now on my permanent, probably top three books of all time that I’ve ever read. And I would also encourage if you do listen to audio to read this, because I think Will is an amazing storyteller, and he’s so animated and it, the whole thing feels like an adventure. It, it feels like you’re on this journey with him. From, you know, being a restaurateur to having the top rated restaurant in the entire world 11 Madison Park, to building a team and building a culture and to be one of the top restaurateur and not be a chef, right? To be from the operation side. And knowing that like he actually did what he went to school for and had a passion for it as a young person.
AJV (40:41):
And then to make the decision to leave that for the betterment of the business and for the team. There is so much in here about creativity and a service and hospitality that I feel like has been lost and unreasonable. Hospitality is really, how do you love people? Well, how do you love your team? Well, how do you love your customers? Well how do you just love people? And in this particular book, it’s through the Art of hospitality, of making people feel welcome and cared for, paying attention to the little details. And they don’t have to be expensive. But they do need to be personal. They need to be curated and unique so that people don’t feel like they’re a, a number, they feel like a person. And, and also providing your team with just enough opportunity to make decisions on their own, right?
AJV (41:41):
Nothing that’s gonna financially break the bank, right? We all have to have ownership back to extreme ownership of the health of, of the business, but also just enough, you know, bandwidth to be creative and unique, to do something on the spot. Or you don’t get caught up in a bunch of bureaucracy and red tape, and you, goodness, you can’t even buy someone a, a thank you card without getting higher approval. Right? And I think this is a beautiful story and a tangible book on how do you love people really well through hospitality, through gifting, through experiences, through words, through food, which I loved, right? Through food. But how do you care? How do you serve people and unique ways through the, the gift and the art of unreasonable hospitality unreasonable amounts sometimes to go. It is not always about a dollar.
AJV (42:37):
And I might lose on this one, but it’s worth it because I know that at some point it’ll come back. It you just love and serve people really well. That is the best marketing you can have, right? We say this all the time at Brand Builders Group, is that the best thing in the world is to turn your customer force into your sales force. How do you do that? You serve your customers undeniably well, and if you love them well and serve them well and provide for them well, they will become your sales force. And that is word of mouth marketing, right? That’s referral marketing. That is why 11 Madison Park had unbelievable reservation wait lists, . It was impossible to get into. And with the prices they charge, you would not think there was that many people, right? But that’s because it was experiential and it was, it was custom and unique.
AJV (43:29):
And also one of the things that got them to be rated one, not be one of the best, the best restaurant in the world. And I think Will’s story of creativity, of leadership, of culture is unfounded in this book through the Art of Loving People really Well, one of my favorite books of all time. This was also a mandatory read at Brand Builders Group. If that tells you anything unreasonable Hospitality Will Guera. So, so good. Okay. ninth book it’s called Nothing to Prove, Jenny Allen. And subtitle is why we Can’t Stop Trying So Hard. And out of all the books that I’ve recommended this is probably the one that is most personally associated because this book is really tailored, catered to the person who finds their worth in their work. And that was me. I, it, it’s still me.
AJV (44:28):
I, I’m overcoming this, right? But this was specifically designed for, I believe, entrepreneurs who find their identity into what they do. Or, you know, it could be the stay at home mom who finds her identity and her kids. And one day those kids grow up and leave. And as a mom, we look in the mirror and we go, who am I? And as entrepreneurs, sometimes we sell our businesses, we retire or the business doesn’t work out, and we look in the mirror and we go, who am I? Like if I don’t have this, who am I? And I know so many friends who have built wonderfully successful businesses that went on to have wonderful exits, only to find that they now felt lost, lonely, empty, and without purpose. And that happens when we have made our work, our identity, when we have found our worth and what we do versus who we are.
AJV (45:32):
And I love this book. This is author, the second book that I would say in my list that has radically changed my life. People will look back at me and be like, man, you’re, you’re different. You, you sound different. You seem different. Like your energy is different. And I will trace it back and go, if you think. So, it’s because of this book. Nothing To Prove by Jenny Allen. She’s also one of my favorite authors that I have gone on to read almost every other book that she has written. And it’s because I’m her avatar. I am the person who struggles with finding my worth and what I do, and my productivity and my accomplishments and my ambition. And I am the person who struggles with finding my identity in work. And that is a conscious thing that I’m working through to overcome.
AJV (46:20):
But if, if that is you, this book was written for you. It was written for your heart, it was written for your soul, and if you allow it to, it will change your life. So Jenny Allen, nothing to prove one of the most life changing books I’ve ever read. And it has changed the way I approach work and how and how I work, because now I know that is not who I am. That is not my worth. I’m so much more than that. And it is no longer my identity. My identity expands way beyond that. And even though we know that when you’re faced with it being gone it’s a whole different reality. And might as well be proactive. Let’s get ahead of that. And this is a book that will really help you do that.
AJV (47:07):
Nothing to prove. Okay? actually that was number 10. But I had a, I had a bonus one sitting over here, so I forgot. So those were my top 10 books. So I, psychology of Money, Morgan Housel, nothing to Prove Jenny Allen, hidden Potential. Adam Grant, unreasonable Hospitality Will Guera Extreme Ownership. Jocko Willink and Le Babin, the ruthless elimination of her. John Mark Comer, procrastinate on purpose. Mother of One and only Ry Vaden, my awesome husband. Buy Back Your Time, Dan Martel Traction. Gina Wickman and Leaders Eat Last Simon Sinek. And then I have an 11th bonus one. Because I, I would be remiss if I didn’t also mention take The Stairs but also my amazing husband, Rory Vaden. And this was his first book released in 2010. And here we are 14 years later, and this is still probably like the most requested keynote that he gets.
AJV (48:07):
This book has been out for 14 years. It’s still, it, it still, it, it’s, it’s a, it’s an evergreen classic of, you know, what are the things that you need to know about business and life and yourself to achieve true success? And defining what true success is. And take the Stairs is, it’s really a, a metaphor for just because you don’t want to doesn’t mean you should, right? And I think there’s a, a lot of truth in going, like, man, there are things that we don’t want to do, but they are good for us. And they produce character and endurance in ways that nothing else can. And it’s not that we should only want to do hard things, but it’s, it’s facing the challenges and facing the hard things are what build character. Nobody looks back on the easy days and go, man, that really defined me.
AJV (49:01):
That doesn’t happen. Nobody looks back on all the victories and successes and, and, and said, man, that, that success is what made me who I am today. We don’t do that. We actually look back and go, man, that valley that I was living in a really long time that defeat, that failure, that loss, that’s where I found my strength. That’s where I found who I am. And I think a lot of what I love about this book, take The Stairs, is it’s embracing hard things and it, it’s choosing to do things even when you don’t feel like doing them because you know they’re good for you, right? And it’s determining what those things are. How do you make those choices? That was my bonus pick for my entrepreneur bookshelf. Take the Stairs by Rory Baden, seven Steps to Achieving True Success. Y’all, there you go. This is our, my solo, summer solo episode, the Entrepreneur Bookshelf 10 books with a bonus, 11 of what I believe every entrepreneur should know and read and embrace to not only do work that you love but to actually do good in the world. So check ’em out, let me know what you think, catch you next time on the influential personal brand.

Ep 507: How to Generate Massive Warm Referrals | Jordan Montgomery Episode Recap

RV (00:04):
Let’s talk about how to generate massive, warm inbound referrals In your business. And we’re not gonna talk about it. I’m gonna teach you exactly how to do this, and I’m telling you, I’m gonna, I’m gonna tell You the secret of what I personally do that
RV (00:29):
Floods our Business regularly in a recurring fashion with massive warm referrals. And I can teach this to you in one sentence, and then I’m gonna share with You four Reasons for why you should do this beyond just getting warm, massive, warm referrals, even though that’s what we’re talking about here. Okay? So How do you do this? How do you generate Massive warm referrals inside of your business? It is simple. If you want to get
RV (01:06):
Referrals, you need to give referrals. That’s it. If you want to get referrals, you need to give referrals. You need to become an expert at giving referrals. You need to have great systems for giving referrals. You need to develop a heart for giving referrals. You need to develop a faith for giving referrals. If you want referrals, you have to become a master at giving referrals. And if you become a master at giving referrals, I promise, I promise you’ll get referrals in return. . And like, this is so simple, and so many people suck at this. So many people don’t do this. So many people do this wrong. So many people think, okay, God’s like the key to, you know, getting referrals is to be great at what you do. Well, that’s, that’s part of it. The key to, you know, getting referrals is to ask. Yeah, that’s an important part of it. But, but the real key, the real secret, the, the, the real magic formula, hidden potion to getting a lot of referrals is to give a lot of referrals. And if you can learn to do this, you will never have, like, you’ll have more leads than you can ever have time to follow up with. You’ll have to build a team to, to, to keep up with all
RV (02:38):
Of the leads that come into your business, mostly because you’ll be working all the warm leads and all of the normal leads that come in. It’s like you gotta have somebody to help you
RV (02:45):
Work, work Through those. And that’s like a big part of what becomes your team.
RV (02:50):
So that’s the Secret in one sentence. I’ve done this again and again. I’ve watched AJ do it again and again, I’ve seen the clients that do this in, in their life again and again. There’s, there’s people in my life that I, I am the recipient of, right? I, there, there’s a couple people here. I’ll, I’ll, I’ll give a couple shout outs. One, I will say Randy Garn is a, is a human that just focuses on giving referrals. And he seems to have, you know, no lack of referrals coming to him, and no lack of business coming to him. John Ruland is a, is a person in my life who loves to give referrals, and he seems to have no lack of influence and, and referrals and relationships coming to him. It is there, there, there’s so many others. There are so many others. We have so many clients, so many friends who have so generously give referrals to BBG.
RV (03:41):
And they get, you know, they, they are, they’re people. I look in their life and I go, yeah, sometimes. And here’s the thing you gotta know, is that when you give referrals, sometimes you get referrals back from that person, but sometimes the referrals you get are not back from that person. They come from somebody else. But it’s, it’s creating this abundance mentality, this abundance mindset, this abundance energy, this faith mindset, this faith mentality, this, this, this, this faith mindset that pours back into you. And you have to do this. And you go, man, if I really want to get good at getting referrals, you might need to flip a switch in your brain and go, why am I not getting more referrals? Right? Like, why am I not getting more referrals? If that’s you, like, if you look at your business and you go, I don’t think I really get that many referrals.
RV (04:37):
I’m certainly not flooded with a massive number of warm referrals. And you go, then I would ask you to say the second question. How good are you at giving referrals? Because I’ve never met someone who is great at giving referrals, who doesn’t also sooner or later, eventually over time, have a flood of warm bound of, of warm inbound referrals. So you might be thinking about it wrong, right? You might be going, oh, I, I need to have better product or a more sharper system, or a, you know, something in terms of like, why don’t I get more referrals? Or you might think, oh, my clients don’t refer people. Of course they do. Everyone refers people like, we refer people that we like, and we, most of us prefer not. Most of us, all of us prefer to do business with people we know. We prefer to, to buy and sell and transact with people that we trust.
RV (05:31):
And that happens through shared relationships. So what I wanna talk about is four reasons why. Beyond just getting more referrals per se. I wanna talk about four reasons why you should become a great giver of referrals for reasons why. Okay, first one, again, you probably overlooked this. Most people that I have this conversation with overlook this point. And yet this is a key point of getting referrals. And it’s a key reason to give referrals. One of the most amazing, beautiful byproducts of giving referrals is that you keep in touch with your past clients. You keep in touch with your past clients. When we say give refers referrals, who are you going to refer? You’re, you’re, you’re probably going to refer other vendors that can serve the people that you know, like, and trust. And if it’s inside your business, the people that you know, like and trust are the people you’re transacting with.
RV (06:39):
It’s your clients and going, who can I introduce to my clients? That’s the mindset here is to go, okay, I have all these clients. A worthy referral from you is to someone who is, you know, a legitimate person, a legitimate buyer. Maybe they’re, maybe they’re a legitimate vendor. And you go, I need to think about who can I introduce to my clients and who can I introduce my clients to? What’s amazing about that, and this is the number one reason beyond just getting referrals about why you should become a great giver of referrals, is that keeps you in touch with all of your past clients. Like, the reason why I book so many people on podcasts and, you know, social media like lives and stages, you know, speakers and stuff, is not ’cause I’m in the business of that. I’m not in the business of that.
RV (07:32):
We don’t get paid to do that. What the reason that I do that is because it keeps me in touch with past clients. I’m going, oh, you need to meet this person and you need to meet this person. Well, when I am constantly thinking about who can I introduce to my clients that would be helpful for my clients, whether it’s another vendor to them or if it is potentially introducing them as a vendor to somebody else, either way it keeps me in touch with my past clients. That is why you should do this. The second reason why you should give referrals and become a master at giving referrals is because it builds reciprocity. You may have heard this, that it’s called the Law of reciprocity, and I would argue emphatically that it is in fact the law of reciprocity. It is not the theory of reciprocity.
RV (08:29):
If you give and support and help other people, it’s not that you might have other people give and support and help you back in return. It is a law. This, it is guaranteed to happen sometimes. It doesn’t always happen from the person you’re giving to, but it always happens. And often it does happen from the person you’re giving to. Almost always it happens, although it may not be in the same form, right? It’s like, I might give a business referral and they might, they might help me, you know, move my furniture when I move my house or something like that. So it’s not always the same currency, but it is always this balance of relationship equity that, that, that, that holds and maintains. It’s it, and it is a, it is a law. So you want to learn to proactively tip this scale in your favor.
RV (09:26):
Now this Bible verse, I’m gonna share with you a Bible verse. Okay? This, this is a, a this is a, a Bible verse about tithing. Okay? So this is specifically about tithing, but it, it nails the attitude and the mindset here of reciprocity. So this Bible verse is Malachi three 10, I think. Make sure that I send that right? Yep. Malachi three 10. This is one of my favorite Bible verses. Okay? So this is from the Old Testament, and here’s what it says. Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse that there may be food in my house. Test me in this, says the Lord Almighty, and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that there will not be room enough to store it. The God of the universe is saying, test me in this.
RV (10:26):
Now he’s specifically talking about tithing to him and saying, trust me with your money, trust me with your resources. That’s the tithe. The first 10th percent, which is what tithe means. It’s a 10th, right? The first 10th is give it back to the Lord and test me In this. There’s not very many things you know, the Lord says, test me in this. In fact, I can’t think of anything else where there’s a few things where I say, you know, do not test the Lord, but in this one, the Lord is saying, test me in this and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing. Now, this is true about giving in general, which is why I’m using this. Now, if you’re giving to another person, that person may not throw out the floodgates of heaven on you.
RV (11:11):
They may not have the ability to, that they may not do that, but God will. You can’t outgive God. You can’t outgive the universe. It’s, it’s a law of, of nature. And, and the God of the universe who created the universe is saying just in giving money to him, saying, trust me as a, if you become a giver first, then I promise you’ll receive much more than your fair portion. And it, it, it is a measure of faith. And that’s one of the reasons why to do this is it, is it builds reciprocity, but specifically it strengthens your faith. When you are giving anything, you are learning to say you’re learning grace. Grace means giving without expectation of receipt, but it is giving. It is giving and trusting that it somehow some way will come back to you. That is a measure of faith.
RV (12:09):
And if you can learn to do that with humans, men and women, if you can learn to do that with humans there, it will also then help you develop that relationship with the Lord. And if you can do that with the Lord, it will also help you learn and develop that relationship with humans. Now, humans are not perfectly just like the Lord is, but I think the Lord often fills those gaps and go, well, I’ve been given to so and so and I was taking care of them, and they didn’t really give me anything back, and maybe they couldn’t give anything back, but it shows up somehow. And, and it is, again, it’s the law of reciprocity. Third reason why I want you to become focused on being a master giver is it forces you to become systematic. A huge part of growing a business.
RV (12:55):
Look, in, in, in my second book, procrastinating On Purpose, I said, no business can outgrow the strength of its systems. And I firmly believe that to be true today, as much as when I wrote it almost 10 years ago. Like, no business will ever outgrow the strength of its systems. A business is nothing other really than a product, a set of people and a set of processes or systems, right? It’s the three Ps. So you have to create great processes. Anything that forces you to create great processes is likely to force you to create a great business and in order to be a great giver, right? A a decent giver is someone who occasionally thinks of like, oh yeah, hey, I have a friend you should meet. But a great giver. A master giver develops systems like to systematically, proactively go, who can I introduce this person to?
RV (13:49):
Who can I introduce this person to? Inside of our members or in our, in our membership portal. For those of you who are members, if you’re a brand builders group member, you know that I have a whole training called the relationship switchboard, and I show you the actual switchboard I use. It’s just a simple sheet where I track it’s a spreadsheet where across the columns are all like, you know, the media opportunities or the speaking opportunities, and then the rows are like people who are great guests or great potential speakers for that. And all I’m doing is tracking all of those connections and relationships. And so whenever I get a new client, I am systematically thinking, and this is a private client, right? I’m talking about someone who I am working with personally, and I’m going, okay, who can I introduce this person to that would be useful for them and who they could also be useful to?
RV (14:41):
It’s systematic, right? Giving referrals to be a master giver requires you to be systematic, intentional, proactive, deliberate strategic. That’s what, if you become a master of this, it will force you to do that, which will also help force you to develop those skills and those character traits, which will help you in other parts of your business. And it will namely, help you with massive lead generation. So that is another reason to give referrals beyond just the fact that you’re gonna get ’em, is it’s gonna force you to be systematic. And then the fourth reason why I want you to become a master at giving referrals is because it reshapes your heart from a posture of self-centeredness to service centeredness.
RV (15:35):
And I believe that that is a big part of the journey of mankind. I believe that that’s a big part of the challenge of our humanity. I believe that that’s a, is is one of the big trials of our lifetime. It is one of the biggest opportunities for growth. It is one of the biggest opportunities for personal development. It is one of the biggest calls on our life as, as, as Christians or just as good people, even if you’re not a Christian, is to go, can I mature from my childish, my childish, immature self-centered nature of only thinking about myself, wanting what is best for me, looking out for me? Can I at some point mature to being service centered, looking out for the needs of others, trying to provide for those around me, trying to make the world a better place for everyone, not just for me.
RV (16:25):
That transformation from self-centeredness to service centeredness is one of the sources of great happiness and joy and purpose in your life. And learning to give referrals makes you a master of that. I don’t think it’s an accident. Again, to give you a Bible verse, this is an Acts chapter 20 verse 35. So this is in the New Testament. This is shortly after Jesus, you know, dies, resurrected, you know, appears, and then is ascends into heaven for the final time. Paul, in the Book of Acts, this is like all the disciples talking about what happens right after Jesus ascends into heaven and how the, the movement of Christianity begins. Paul quotes Jesus directly in Acts 20, verse 35, and he says, remembering the words, the Lord Jesus himself said, it is more blessed to give than to receive. It is more blessed to give than to receive.
RV (17:21):
Again, this is a posture that’s worth pursuing. This is a journey of a personal development transcendence that I think is, is, is a, is worth taking. This is a, a trial worth triumphing over is the journey from self-centeredness to service centeredness. And being a master referrals forces you to go on that journey and to, and, and it, and it helps shape your heart. It shapes the posture of your heart and your character in a way that is healthy for you, even if you never get another business referral. So there you have at four reasons why, to become a master at giving referrals, even though and above and beyond the massive number of warm referrals that you will get. If you just do these things, go find someone and serve them. Be helpful to your past clients in a way more than just selling to them. Introduce them to useful people and stay plugged in here for more great inspiration and tips to hopefully help you in your journey.

Ep 506: How to Scale a Coaching Business from Scratch with Jordan Montgomery

RV (00:00):
To, you know, every once in a while I meet someone and I go, man, this person is a rolling stone. Like, this person is making a big impact in the world, and they’re gonna be big. And that’s how I feel about Jordan Montgomery. I’ve heard this guy’s name for years and we’ve kind of gotten to know each other a little bit. He became an official client, a brand builders group. Through that, our team’s really gotten to know him and he’s really, really impressive. So he is an executive coach. He coaches you know, top, top athletes high performing CEOs, entrepreneurs, et cetera. He’s also a very busy speaker, keynote speaker. And so he speaks to sales organizations, small business owners, and just talks really about high performance in general and, and has worked with he, he was a sales manager and managed top performing sales teams. So he came, he comes outta the financial services industry. We’ll hear a little bit about that. He’s got a new book coming out called The Art of Encouragement. We definitely want to hear a little bit about that. And you just wanna hear his story about how he has made the transition from somebody working in professional services to moving into, I think, becoming one of the fastest rising stars in the, in the space of sales and leadership and communication and just like personal development in general. So, Jordan, welcome to the show, man.
JM (01:24):
Rory, thanks for having me, man. So fun to be with you. Honored to be here. Fun to share some time with your audience. And for so long, I’ve respected your work, respect, what you’ve built at brand Builders. Actually heard you speak circa 2013 in Chicago, Illinois. Really, it was my first experience being in, I remember this, a Marie Vaden room, and I just thought, man, this is a guy that I wanna follow I wanna learn from. And man, just fun to grow a friendship and kind of surreal man, longtime listener. First time caller to be on, to be on your show. So thanks for having me,
RV (01:57):
. And you were, wasn’t that a, was it a Northwestern Mutual event, right? That
JM (02:00):
Was it, man. Yeah, you got it.
RV (02:01):
You got it. You were a speaker. You were also speaking, right? I also speaking, you were working for the company at the time. That’s
JM (02:06):
Right. That’s right. Yep. And so I was a manager at the time, and you were the outside, you know, keynote speaker, and I think it was after you had written the book, take the Stairs, and you delivered a great keynote message. And I just remember thinking, I gotta follow this guy and learn from him and continue to spend time with him. So 11 years ago, man, in a ballroom in Chicago.
RV (02:25):
So, so that’s really cool. So tell us the story about how you transitioned. You know, I think particularly in like professional services, we meet a lot of people who are, you know, they’re successful lawyers, they’re, you know, accountants, they’re doctors, they’re financial advisors, and they grow a great practice. And a lot of times they grow a great practice because they’re consuming personal development content and knowledge. And it’s a pretty common path that they go, man, I think I wanna do more of this. I wanna spend more time teaching, training, coaching others. But it’s hard to, you know, like not many people make that leap fully successfully. You’ve, you’ve done a really great job. So can you talk to us about, like, how did you go about doing that? When did it all happen? How did you kind of structure it and like, when did you kind of, you make that transition? Hmm.
JM (03:18):
Well, I wish my story was one of like, extreme success meets like extreme success, but it wasn’t that way. There were a few bumps in the road. There was actually a really large bump in the road, and the bump occurred April 1st, 2015. So I get a call from my then supervisor. I’m working in financial services for a Fortune 100 firm. I have one of the top offices and organizations in that firm. It grew really quickly. I came from kind of a blue collar background, Rory. So my dad’s a painter. Mom’s a teacher, didn’t really have any relationship with money growing up. The , Iowa,
RV (03:53):
Right? Iowa.
JM (03:54):
Iowa, man, small town, Iowa. Yep. One stoplight town. God bless, Kelowna, Iowa. And so, man, like when I graduated college, I just knew like I’m willing to work and my dad taught me the power of like, working hard. So I got that from dad and I worked, man, and I, I just, I was putting in the 70, 80 hour weeks. And so from 22 to 25 that business consumed my life. And I had some success. I had a lot of success. To kind of paint the picture before I tell you about April 1st, 2015, I’m traveling the country. I’m speaking at all these major conferences. I’m flying private. I’m the closing keynote speaker at a lot of major industry events. Matter of fact, I was the closing keynote speaker at one of the largest industry events. It’s 15,000 people sold out MBA arena.
JM (04:38):
I am living in like the proverbial penthouse. But I had an issue, Rory, I was overexposed and I was underdeveloped, meaning my character wasn’t really keeping pace with my influence. Hmm. I was so young and so naive. And I had sort of been on this rocket ship to like this crazy professional space that I really wasn’t ready for. And so April 1st, 2015, I get this text message from my then supervisor and he says I need to meet, I need to meet with you right away. To which I respond because I was naive. I don’t have time. My calendar’s full. Not today, but maybe some other day, , you know, like, how about next Wednesday? He says, Hey Jordan, this is a, a meeting that you need to clear your calendar for. It’s really important. I need to see you in the next couple of hours.
JM (05:31):
So then I’m thinking, Rory, someone on my team must have made a grave mistake. I gotta go clean it up. ’cause I’m, you know, sort of player coach. I’m running an office, but I’m still doing financial planning. I walk into his office a couple hours later, and this is what he says to me, Rory, he said, you haven’t been malicious or intentional, but you’ve been careless and casual. And when you’re casual, you create casualties, said, Jordan, this is gonna be really uncomfortable for you, but today you’re the casualty. This will be your last day with our firm.
JM (06:03):
The story was, there was a person on my team who had taken a test on, on be on my behalf, was a continuing education assessment. And that industry, that’s an infraction. It can’t happen. But moreover, there were just like things that I was missing, Rory, in my development and my leadership wasn’t dotting i’s wasn’t crossing the T’s and it was within his right to say, I don’t trust your wisdom, discernment, your leadership, your development, and so you can go work somewhere else. You just can’t work here. Well, this was devastating for a 27-year-old man. He found all of his identity in achievement, status, accomplishment. It, it becomes more devastating. The company sends out a company wide email with my name on it that explains my termination, kind of at a high level. I get about 3000 text messages within a matter of, you know, 24 hours.
JM (06:54):
And I just sort of go into hiding. I didn’t just lose my job. I lost all my money. I was involved in some real estate deals. They go sideways ’cause they weren’t structured properly. And I literally, Rory go from like the penthouse to the outhouse overnight. A guy by the name of Tim Bohannon scoops me up, says, you can come work for me. Same firm, min apple, Minnesota, I’ll give you a second chance, but here’s how this is gonna work. No speaking, no training. You’re gonna rebuild your business and rebuild your life and I’m gonna help you do it, but it’s gonna be really tough. And it was tough. So for two years, man, I’m in this valley season I think God does his best work in the valley. And I read my Bible and I got connected to a church and I started to call home to mom and dad and rebuild some relationships that I had sort of let go of.
JM (07:40):
And God just met me in that place in a really, really broken place. And I met my now wife who was coming out of a rough divorce. So we kind of met both in a broken place. And what I didn’t know, Rory, is God was preparing me for my biggest leadership job, which was gonna be becoming a daddy to two little girls, ages five and three. I dated Ashley for six months. We got engaged, we got married. Six months later I moved back home to Iowa. I’m still doing financial planning. I looked at her and I said, babe, I just, I got this itch for coaching. I started coaching five people. Coach 10 got open doors, 10 turned into a hundred, a hundred turned into a thousand. And I left the financial planning business behind. And I say all that to say this for most of us, we wanna pivot from a place of strength.
JM (08:28):
Like we think that it’s like, again, extreme success meets extreme success. But for me it wasn’t that way. Like I think God’s preparation was packaged as pain and I had to go through some really, really tough stuff to ultimately get to where I’m at today. And I want people to know that about my story. And I write about that in the Art of Encouragement. It’s actually the first chapter. And we talk about the art of character, encouragement and encouraging people in valley seasons. And man, God just met me in a really unique place and I was fortunate to have some people that stepped into my life who encouraged me and cared for me in a really unique and special way.
RV (09:09):
Mm-Hmm. . Yeah. That’s, that’s powerful. Did, so you rebuild the financial practice, did you take on your first coaching clients while you were still doing financial planning then it sounds like you started like having a few clients.
JM (09:28):
That’s right. So I moved back home to Iowa, kind of moved the practice with me. I still planned to grow that business, right? So I’d rebuilt the business. I didn’t plan Roy to start a coaching business. I just thought I’ll coach a few people on the side as I’m running this financial planning business. But I, I can’t explain it other than like, I think God blessed it, but I think I also had to I had to be humbled. Like there had to be something in me that changed for me to really be ready to do that work at a high level. And so it’s that old adage that like, sometimes God asked to do something in you before he can do something with you. So I think he just changed my spirit, my empathy, my compassion, my heart for people and, and then blessed it man. Like yeah, today we get work with pro athletes and high level CEOs and I got a team of 22 people who does this work at the highest level around the country. And it’s been a, a real joy.
RV (10:20):
Mm-Hmm. . So, so how did you, so walk me through that. How did you, how did you go from, I got a few clients on the side, which I’m assuming are mostly like referrals and friends of friends that you probably met through your financial practice, right? Just like your family and then those people you start to take on more clients and then at some point, like how, how far along are you when you go, man, I need another, I need another coach on my team. And where did you find the first coach and how did you get past the fear of like, oh my gosh, they’re not gonna be able to coach like I can and you know, it’s my reputation on the line and it’s my business, but they’re the one doing the coaching. Like, tell me about that.
JM (11:01):
Yeah, so let’s speak to some brand builders who wanna scale and we didn’t do everything right. So full disclosure, there was so much that I did wrong and there’s things that I would redo. But if there’s one thing that we did right it’s that I think I was willing to let go early on and trust and empower some other coaches. Hmm. And I’m really proud of that. I think for so many of us, we, we can be control freaks as type A, you know, leaders of people. But I realized early on, like, unless I’m just gonna sell my time and fill every slot on my calendar and live sort of a miserable life that’s totally consumed every hour of my day by work I’m gonna have to figure out a, a different way to do this. And so Rory, I I just started connecting with other people who do some coaching. They were established leaders who wanted to take on a handful of clients. And we sort of just organically grew the business and I wanted to make sure that I over-delivered in every situation. So we had a really referable brand. We grew our business through word of mouth scale to team, but I let go early. And our friend Craig Rochelle says this, you can have control or growth, but you can’t have both.
RV (12:15):
Mm-Hmm, , I love that quote. It’s so good. Giving
JM (12:18):
Up control was really scary. But I learned to just sort of step into the pain of being less than excellent. I didn’t have all the answers, I just realized that I needed to build the plane as I fly it. And I had to do that with the help of other good people. And also that there’s other people that had expertise that I didn’t have. And so yeah, letting go early was for sure a, a key move for us.
RV (12:42):
Mm-Hmm. . And so you bring those people on just as contractors, they’re people who had their own coaching business and you contracting?
JM (12:50):
Yep. Yep. So they’re all 10 99 independent contractors. Some of them have 40 clients, some of them have five clients. Some of ’em will speak 50 times a year. Some of them will speak five times a year. And so they’re all different in terms of their capacity, their background, their skillset. But I wanted to build sort of a robust team where from a personal development, leadership development place, we can help and equip just about anybody in any situation. So if somebody comes to us, says, Hey, I wanna coach, I wanna grow my development in most cases we have an answer. Not always, and I certainly don’t have the answer, but because we have a team, we’re I think uniquely equipped to help a variety of people.
RV (13:31):
Mm-Hmm. . And so how did you get your clients right? Because that’s, I think that’s the other part is to go, I mean, that’s what most people struggle with is like, you, you had enough clients early on that you were bringing on coaches. How, how are you getting your clients?
JM (13:45):
Okay, so I’m gonna say this tongue in cheek because this is the Brand Builders podcast, right? And we’re talking to people who wanna build a brand. So you should build a brand, but you should also just be really, really, really good at what you do. I was having this conversation with John Maxwell the other day, Rory, and he said, you know, so many people come to me because they want me to like, put my stamp on them. You know, they want me to sign off on them or help them kind of build their name or thrust them out into the world and give them a bigger platform. And John said, I, you know, I can do that in some cases, but what happened to just being really, really good at what you do? Like he said, a lot of young people should be worried less about like their reputation and brand and more concerned about being really good at what they do. Now, this is the Brand Builders podcast, Rory, you’re thinking, okay, hold on. Like, we still want people to build a brand. They need to,
RV (14:42):
No, I’m not. I, that that is, that’s how we define brand is reputation. Like it is, right? Brand is not, it’s not reputation. You’re, you’ve got pretty websites and nice videos and beautiful colors and, and, and nice fonts that pair well together. Like, that is not what brand is. Brand is reputation. That’s, that’s how we do, that’s the core of how we find it. It define it. So like, I’m, I’m Amen. I I think I’m, I’m, I’m behind that a hundred percent.
JM (15:11):
Well, you and I, yeah, you and I align in terms of, I think how we think about growth and scale and brand. And you know, for me, I just realized early on, like, I need to overdeliver and I need to make sure that I’m really good at what I do. And we’d ask for, you know, an endorsement, a testimonial, connection, introduction. And, but I think it was really through being good at what we do and developing reputation that allowed us to scale.
RV (15:33):
Mm-Hmm. . And then is that still now, like you’re, if you’ve got a team of 20, that’s a lot of people to feed, so to speak, that’s a lot of clients to, to, to be generating, keeping up, is it basically just they’re all, you’ve been able to build a culture where everybody is doing that? Or have you been able to build your personal brand to a point where there’s enough runoff and wake from that, that you’re able to kind of like put them in with the team?
JM (16:02):
That’s part of the reason that we’re working with brand builders full disclosure, is because we have a lot of work to do and, and we have opportunity to grow. And, and I would say, yeah, a lot of what we’ve done is, you know, we’ve built the brand around me, which is both good and bad. But I think again, we’ve, it’s gotta be less about me and more about the company. And I think we’re in that transition phase sort of right now, transparently Rory, of figuring out like, how do we move this away from Jordan and more towards team? Because we we’re fortunate that we do have a lot of just inbound, you know, inquiries based on building reputation and brand. But then there’s some strategy that goes into it as well. We host some webinars, we do some live events, virtual events. So we’ve been really fortunate to spend off opportunity from that. And then when those opportunities come in, my brother, who’s the director of coaching sort of filters those opportunities to the appropriate team members. But we have a lot of work to do. You know, I think we’re just getting started in so many ways in terms of what God’s called us to and what we hope to eventually build.
RV (16:58):
Now you’ve also done speaking so simultaneous. So you’ve, you’ve built a great coaching business, which I love. And I, I love the coaching model ’cause I just, I think it applies massive value to the customer quickly. It app it, it applies real significant meaningful revenue to the coach. And it’s, it creates, there’s a scalable opportunity and great, I think great content comes outta great coaching conversations and all that. But then speaking is very different. That’s a very different skillset. It’s a very different business model. It’s like more of a B2B where coaching, coaching is like business to consumer speaking is like business to business coaching is one-on-one speaking is one on many. You know, I think coaching is, is like, you know, very organic and I think speaking is much more like polished and like you, you know that, so how did you, when did you really start? Did you, when did you start building the speaking side of things and how fast did that take off compared to the coaching business?
JM (18:02):
Well, they’re uniquely tied together to your point. I would speak and then because I spoke, I would naturally have, you know, inquiries on the coaching side of the business. And like any other speaker just like you, Rory, like I’ve become more selective over time on what fits and what works. In the beginning though, if I’m talking to some folks who wanna speak or maybe you’re doing some speaking and you’re trying to scale that business, like I, I would just go back to be good at what you do and also be willing to do stuff either for free or for very little. If there’s one thing I’m proud of, like when we started that business I would just, I’d speak and I’d speak to small groups. I’d speak to churches, I’d speak to youth sports teams. And I just, I never I was never too good for that.
JM (18:47):
And I’m, I’m proud of that. And some of our best relationships that we have today, Rory came out of those environments and I see so many people that wanna speak who aren’t willing to do that work. I’m talking to one of the top speakers on the planet, like Rory Vaden is a, well-known, unbelievably gifted keynote speaker. But I think part of your magic, Rory, is you had humility and still do today to serve and add value and jump in where God’s called you to reach people. So, you know, in the beginning it was like, man, I do stuff for a cup of coffee or a really small check or sometimes, you know, again, just for free for the relational opportunities. But I was always really keen on follow up, making sure that I communicated the fact that I didn’t want this to be a one-time engagement.
JM (19:34):
Like, Hey, I would love for our impact to go beyond today. I would love to better serve your organization in a deeper and more intentional way. And so we had a really strategic follow up process to engage with the company beyond the stage. And I think that’s where so many speakers go wrong, is they come in for an event, they get a 25,000 check or whatever the check is, they feel good about it and they move on. And there’s really no process for engaging with that culture or with that group of people in a deeper way. So for us, that became a big part of growing the company, is making sure that we had a follow up process that was really dialed in.
RV (20:07):
Mm-Hmm. . Yeah. I mean that’s, that’s, speakers are classically known for like, come speak, hit the road and gone forever and, and, you know, easy, I mean, yeah. It’s, it’s, there’s a big opportunity for sure that I think they, they, they miss out on. And, and frankly I think some businesses, you know, they just hire speakers almost as like entertainment and never really go, if I like this speaker, why don’t I commit to working with them to actually install the systems behind what they’re teaching? So companies sometimes perpetuate it too. ’cause It’s like they think of speakers as more like entertainers than they do, like actual people that significantly move the organization. But, but so your early, I wanna talk about the fall part, but, but the early speaking engagements, I think that’s so true. I mean, it was like, I was speaking to two people in the back of a Perkins restaurant.
RV (21:01):
I was doing high schools, I was doing cheerleading teams, I was doing standup mic, you know, open mic nights to four people at some crummy like com. Yes. You know, comedy bar like a anywhere and everywhere. And I did, you know, hundreds of Toastmaster groups that were all like between three and three and a, a large audience was like eight people. You know, local real estate offices and car dealerships. Like, I mean, I was going anywhere that people would listen for for like three years, four years, like a, a, a hot minute. Did most of your speaking engagements evolve out of that? So basically was it like, speak for free, do an amazing job, get referred to people who have money, or was it like, let’s build a system to go prospect people who have money and pitch me as a speaker?
JM (21:55):
I think it was a combination of both. I think, again, what worked for us is I knew the audience that I would work well with. So first off is like, be really thoughtful. Like as you continue to grow experience and you gain confidence, then I think be strategic and thoughtful about where you would work. Well, so I knew my, my deal, Rory, is I would work really well with folks. You know, the emerging professional, typically under 40 years old, he was trying to grow a sales oriented or people oriented business. Mm-Hmm. , I got in the room with those folks. I could speak from the stage about tactics, strategies, concepts that were gonna add value to them long term. And so I knew that if I could speak about those things, I would have a captive audience that would naturally convert into coaching clients that talk about our coaching business.
JM (22:38):
And we, and then we’d have, you know, a lot of coaching inquiries that would come off of that. From a speaking standpoint, I would just follow up with the person who booked me to speak and I would just be really candid. I think, you know, so often this isn’t complicated. Like, I think we just, we overthink it. I’d just say like, Hey, I really enjoy being with your people. I love speaking to organizations like yours. If there were three to five people that you think I should be spending time with, I’d love to know who those folks are. And in the spirit of adding value yeah, I’d love an endorsement or testimonial. Like I just, it’d mean a lot to me if you’d be willing to share a couple, you know, kind thoughts, remarks about the speech. And so it was never like, invasive and it, I didn’t, never felt like I was asking for too much. But I wanted their feedback I wanted their endorsement, and if they were kind enough to make it an introduction, I would always gladly take it.
RV (23:26):
Mm-Hmm. , I mean, it is the same, you probably got really good at that script from doing financial planning, I’m guessing where you learned to ask people for referrals and then just that skillset just tra it’s immediately transferrable to like ask you for referrals to, for speaking.
JM (23:44):
Yeah. And I, lemme say this, I think a lot of folks focus on the referrals that they get and they’re not focused on the referrals that they give. So like, if you’re a speaker, for example, if you’re doing what we do, I wanna try to out-give, I wanna try to give more than I get now over time, that, that, that takes on a new shape and form. But in the beginning it was like, okay, if I spoke to an organization, I knew I could introduce them to other speakers or other thought leaders or other people in their industry that they needed to know. And so I was always trying to be really strategic about that as well. Like, Hey, you need to meet Rory, or you need to meet David Nurse, or, Hey, for your next event, you need to bring this person in. Maybe I can get ’em at a discount or maybe I could get ’em to do something for free. Here’s this event that I’m gonna be a part of. I’d love to take five of you with me. You know, I I just was trying to find unique ways to add value. But then that also helped on the referral side, right? Like people, people were more willing to give me referrals, Rory because they knew I was reciprocating and I was interested in adding value and, and giving referrals.
RV (24:47):
Yeah, I mean, to this day, to this very day, that is the number one way I get speaking engagements is because I’m introducing my friends to my past clients. And it’s probably, the ratio is probably like three to one, probably for every three I give, I get one back. But if you keep doing that and doing that, then like, it just keeps growing and growing. And what’s interest, what, what I’ve realized is it’s it that actually is my follow up strategy for keeping in touch with my past clients is introducing them to other speakers because they need a speaker every year, or multiple speakers. Most of ’em at this point, you know, a lot of times I’m one of like several speakers and going like, it gives me a reason to stay in touch with them and see how they’re doing and what’s going on with the business.
RV (25:38):
And like, a lot of times what happens is they go, Hey, it’s been four years since we’ve had you, we should bring you back. And it’s like, I’m not even trying to do that. I’m literally trying to go, how can I give to, you know, who, who, whoever our, our friends or up and comers and that, that kind of a thing. You know, and to your point, I think it’s important to speak in front of other speakers for that reason is like when, when a speaker sees you, sometimes they’re the, they’re the re the best marketing strategy you have. Like, you know, like I’ll sometimes I’ll speak at speakers events, you know, like, I just did this for John Maxwell and I was like, look, the requirement is you have to sit here and watch me speak. That’s all I want. I just, but I want you to sit here and I want you to have the experience as an attendee of what it’s like to be in the audience because I know that that always turns into more fruit for everybody. And you know, so amen. About, and that’s, you know, the, on the referral side of giving out, you know, giving more than you get, get, it’s like that applies for every business at every level. That’s right. Services. Like, that’s right.
RV (26:48):
The key to getting referrals is to give referrals. It’s that simple. And nobody does it. Nobody does it.
JM (26:53):
It’s crazy, isn’t it? Like I’ll say this because you’re a really, really well connected person, Rory because you’re a connecting person. Mm-Hmm. So like, if you’re listening and you’re like, man, I wanna be more connected, then start connecting. Because connecting people are connected people and connected people are connecting people. So like, if you understand just the art of adding value, you might be listening and going, well gosh, I’m not Rory, I don’t have high level introductions that I can make. Well, here’s what you can give, you can give your attention, you can give your time, you can give your empathy, you can give your counsel. Like, it doesn’t always have to be an introduction, but just get obsessed with giving and adding value to people. Overdelivering, somebody says, Hey, what do you look for in a new hire? Like if you’re gonna hire somebody in your organization, what do you look for? I would say I look for the person who’s hardwired to overdeliver. Mm-Hmm. . And I would say the same thing if I was booking a speaker, hiring a coach, you know, or looking at our next employee. Like we just want to be around people who are hardwired overdeliver. So be the person who’s hardwired to over deliver, add value, serve, connect, give Rory, I’ve watched that work for you. And there’s a reason you’re at where you’re at today. You’re a connected person ’cause you’re really busy connecting people. We
RV (28:15):
That’s so good. That’s such a wise, I I love that Jordan, that that connection between just be connecting because like yes, today I am introducing people to the biggest stages in the world. I mean the biggest speaking stages in the world, but it’s like all I’m doing I was is I’m doing the same thing I was doing when I was speaking at Perkins. I was like, Hey, I spoke at this gig at Perkins, like there’s this little book club that meets like, would you wanna speak there? It’s, it’s just the same habit but at a different scale and a magnitude, which is just the, you know, happens organically over time if you do that. I love that idea. If you just you’re a well connected person because you’re a connecting person. Alright buddy, I know we only have a few minutes. So you have the art of encouragement. You’re a fantastic encourager. You’ve encouraged me in and out of just this conversation alone, why encouragement? Tell us a little bit about the book and like what, what, what it’s about and why you believe in it.
JM (29:20):
I think encouragement for so long has been a topic that people either engage in or they don’t. So a leader will say something like, I’m an encourager or I’m just not much of an encourager. So I think it’s sad that we see it that way and we don’t see it as an art. I think it’s an art form. It’s an art form just like any other leadership skill. And so we wrote the book, the Art of Encouragement. There’s 10 Arts if you wanna truly encourage and recognize the people around you. I think it changes relationships. I think it’s a universal language that people understand. And I think it taps into our most basic social and relational psychological need, which is the need to be known, seen, and valued. And so my belief is that if we can get busy encouraging people in real and authentic ways, we can change relationships, change lives, and help people feel seen, valued, and understood. And so yeah, I’ve just been the beneficiary of some world-class encouragers and it was a book for me that was easy to write because it’s been such a huge part of my life. So that’s why we chose the topic.
RV (30:21):
Yeah, I remember Zig Ziglar used to say all the time, encouragement is the fuel on which hope runs. Which was basically to say, if you keep encouraging people, they will continue to have hope and they will keep going. If you stop encouraging people, they lose hope. And so they stop, you know, they stop pursuing. And it’s like, what, what blows my mind about encouragement is that it’s free and it’s unlimited. Right? Right. Like, you can give it, you can give it. And I think to take what you said about connecting the same thing applies to encouraging is like if you’re a great encourager, you will always be encouraged.
JM (31:00):
That’s it.
RV (31:02):
Yeah. And I think your life is evidence of that. Jordan and I, I watch, I watch What’s Happening to You and it excites me. ’cause I feel like I love it when I go, oh, there’s the good people are winning. Like, it’s still, you know, there, there’s a lot of places in the world where like, oh, you know, the, the best marketer is, you know, looks like they’re winning or the, you know, the richest person is winning. But it’s like, nah. Like ultimately it’s still the good guys still win. If you, if you do all the work and you do and you do the things, and I see that happening with you, that’s very convicting to me. And and I love what you’re doing, man. You are, you’re on the right path. I mean, it’s just like you can’t do all the right things, right? You can’t like do all the right things and have it not end up in a good place.
JM (31:46):
Hmm.
RV (31:48):
And so where do you want people to go? So Art of Encouragement is the book July coming out July 24th. So right now, July 24th, 2024. And where do you want people to go to get the book? Because you’ve got some bonuses and stuff that you’re giving away. Yeah,
JM (32:06):
Yeah, yeah. Go to the Art of encouragement book.com. You could register for a free webinar John Gordon Ryan Leak, David Nurse and Jess tro. We’d love to have you that webinar’s taking place on July 12th. There’s some other freebies and we’d love to hang out with you, get to know you better have you a part of our community. But or the book, we’d love for you to read it. We’d love for you to share it with a friend. Yeah, I think this is a universal language that the world understands. And to your point, Rory, it’s free to give our our listeners, I’ll, I’ll leave us with maybe this final question. John Maxwell asked this question one time. He said how do you know if somebody needs encouragement? Like, how are you to know that? And then he answered his own question and he said they, they have a pulse.
JM (32:54):
You know, like the world needs encouraged. I don’t care if you’re the most successful person on the planet or the least experienced person in your industry. You need to be encouraged. And I do think it’s fuel. And we’d love to help people with that. And so yeah, go to the go to the website Art of encourage book book.com. We’d love to have you for the book launch webinar on July 12th. Book drops July 24th, Rory, God bless you. Appreciate your friendship man, and all the help that you’ve offered. Let me say this. Your company is top-notch. You communicate at the highest level you follow through, you touch base, you connect. Like what you are building at Brand Builders is so significant and so special. We will work with you until the end of time because we just feel cared for, valued, seen, understood. And again, the fact that you’re having me on this podcast is just more evidence of the way that you care and the way that you show up for the people that you work with. So thank you, man, for your support and your friendship really means a lot.
RV (33:55):
Yeah, buddy. Well, it’s, it’s a pleasure. We, we started this company to find mission driven messengers that we could get behind to go. These are people that we want to teach, what we have, what we’ve learned to go help them, like make the world a better place. And, and, and you represent every part of that brother. So we wish you all the best. Thanks for being here and we’ll catch everybody next time on the influential Personal Brand podcast. Good luck, Jordan.
JM (34:20):
Thanks for having me, Rory. Be well. God bless.

Ep 505: What’s Your Competitive Advantage | David Avrin Episode Recap

AJV (00:02):
What is your competitive advantage? Okay, that’s the conversation for today. And this really spawned from a conversation that I had on the influential personal brand podcast with a really good close personal friend Dave Avrin. And he just wrote a book called Ridiculously Easy to Do Business with. And part of our conversation was, what makes it easy for people to do business with you? Or in other words, what’s your competitive advantage? And so this was a good enough conversation that I thought, this is the pullout of what I would like to talk about in this recap version of that conversation. So number one, let’s talk about what is not your competitive advantage. It’s not your people, right? I think we could all say we have great people. I say brain Boulder’s Group. Our people are our secret sauce. And not one of them, but all of them, they are amazing.
AJV (01:00):
They care, they have integrity, they have work ethic, they are smart, they are fast. But I also have like 10 entrepreneur friends who would say the exact same thing about their people. And so I would just encourage you that it’s not your people, right? Having great people should be a prerequisite for being in business. I know not all companies would say that, and there are some cultures that need work, but I would just encourage you that your competitive advantage is probably not only your team. I think it’s a part of what makes you awesome, but it may not be your competitive advantage. Okay? Second thing that it’s probably not is your high quality product. There are lots of high quality products and services. I am in three different coaching programs right now and for three different reasons, right? I’m in the EO Entrepreneurs organization and it’s a huge part of that is the business community that I have and the business education and business resources.
AJV (01:59):
I have a life coach Pete Wilson is my life coach, and he has a phenomenal program. It’s a high quality service. I’m in the Wellspring Mastermind, which is for Christian entrepreneurs, and it’s about how do you turn your, your business into a kingdom building empire, right? It’s say, I wanna do God’s work. I really genuinely do. I want my business to be reflection of my faith in Jesus Christ. And that is an, it’s a great quality program, but I don’t know if I would say for any of them is a quality program, a quality service, a quality product, their competitive advantage. ’cause Again, having a quality product or a quality program should be requirement for entry, right? Because if not, the market’s gonna snuff you out, right? You’re not gonna have growing customers, you’re not gonna have exceeding revenues because if you’re, if the product isn’t good, if it doesn’t work, if the program or the service, if it’s no wino, people aren’t going to keep buying it.
AJV (03:00):
They’re not gonna refer it. And so I would encourage, it’s also probably not a quality product. I would say low prices. It’s also probably not your competitive advantage. Tons of places have low prices. I would encourage you that it’s probably not your customer service, right? I would encourage you that it’s not a laundry list of other things, but I think what most people say is it’s our people, or they say it’s, it’s our unique program. It’s our unique service that’s our high quality product. And I would just encourage you that those probably aren’t it, right? That’s probably not your unique competitive advantage. And so how do you figure out what is your competitive advantage? Because if you would’ve asked me what our competitive advantage was before I had this conversation and before I did this work, and before I really sat down and thought about, I probably would’ve said our people, right?
AJV (03:52):
It’s our people. And if not that, I would’ve said it’s our community, which is also our people, right? It’s the community that we have built within Brain Builders Group. And then I started really thinking about it and I’m going, okay, maybe that’s not it. And how to rephrase that question is what makes it ridiculously easy for people to do business with you? And if you don’t know the answer to that, then I would encourage you to do a couple of quick things here. One, ask yourself, what would your customer say? And if you don’t know, go ask them. Be like, Hey, what do you like about doing business with me? What do you think are competitive advantages? And what would you say is the most easy thing about working with us? Or perhaps the question is, what’s the hardest thing about working with us?
AJV (04:45):
What is not easy? What do you wish was better? And perhaps there’s some gaps that you need to fill there. Second thing I would do is I go through your own processes as a consumer. So like one of the action items that I literally have here on my to-do list post this conversation is I need to go and go through our funnels as a consumer with a new email address so nobody can identify it. I need to schedule a call with their sales team. I need to request a customer care call. I need to email all of our different community listservs and check our response time. How do they respond? I need to be like, how many clicks does it take me to do this? I need to go through our funnels. I need to make sure no links are broken.
AJV (05:32):
I need to go through and, and experience what it’s like to be a new customer as well as a, a veteran customer, a brand builders group. And what I wanna do is I wanna go through that process and look for friction. I wanna look for all the places that there’s rub. Where is there a delay in response time? Where is it that you can’t have a human conversation? Where is it that the automation isn’t firing correctly? Or is it our calendar isn’t available enough or opportunities aren’t present enough or what is it? And I don’t know where the points of friction are, but it’s my job to find them. It’s not my customer’s job to find them. It’s my job. It’s the business owner to find those points of discomfort or challenge or, or friction. And then it’s my job to help remove those, right?
AJV (06:22):
And so when I was sitting here and going, okay, if I don’t know the answer to that, I’m gonna ask my team what do they think? And after that, I’m gonna ask our clients what do they think? And then I would also like to ask our affiliate partners, our referral partners prospects who never bought from us. It’s like, can you tell me why , right? Like, gotta do a little bit of this in an investigative approach here, right? I gotta put my detective hat on for a minute and go, it’s my job to ask the questions and to find the answers. I don’t have to do it all by myself, right? We, we have a team, we have people, we have customers, but I have to be asking the question. One because it matters. It matters a lot. To know what your competitive advantage is matters a lot in business today to go, this is what it’s like to do business with us.
AJV (07:07):
And to be able to say that with full authenticity and integrity and confidence of going, we don’t get it right a hundred percent of the time, but man, like we get it right most of the time here. And this is what you can expect. This is what makes us different. And this is what makes us unique. And I think that’s a really important thing that we all need to know, not only for us as individuals and our personal brands, but for the extension of that which is our business. And I think if you don’t know, you gotta go through the process of asking the questions to yourself, to your team, to your customers, to vendors, to prospects, to referral partners or affiliates, whoever you have, right? Whoever interacts with your business. The next is you have to go through the process of what it’s like to be a prospect for your business, to be a consumer of your business, and find those points of friction and also identify those points of ease, like what worked really well.
AJV (08:01):
And take all of that and go, man, if I were to boil it down and go, what is my competitive advantage? Here’s what I would say. Here’s what I would say. And so the question is, what is your competitive advantage? And if I’m telling you it’s not your people and it’s not your high quality product or service, and it’s not li it’s not likely your cost and it’s not likely your technology and it’s not likely your customer service team and it’s not likely those things, then what is it? What makes you truly unique amongst everyone else who does what you do? And I’m not talking about just your personal brand right now, because as a individual, I’m already unique, right? There is no other AJ Vaden on the planet. No one else has my unique set of brand DNA. No one has my life stories or experiences. They don’t have my
AJV (08:54):
Thoughts, feelings, emotions. They are not me. I am already unique. I am talking about your established business which is an extension of your personal brand, but it’s a, you know, a conglomeration of your products and your service and your team and your people and your clients. Like, what is that competitive advantage? And if you don’t know, we’ve given you several different action items to go through. And if you’re still pondering that, then I would highly encourage you pick up this new book which I’m a major advocate for by David Rin, which is ridiculously easy to do business with. And you can pick it up on Amazon. There are 28 things that it questions you on. It encourages you to investigate, it challenges you and it really gets you to ask those deeper questions that help you really uncover what is your real unique advantage in the marketplace that allows you to continue to do business, but not just do it, but do it well, do it exceptionally well in the service of other people. So what is your competitive advantage?

Ep 504: Ridiculously Easy To Do Business With | David Avrin

AJV (00:01):
Hey everybody, and welcome to the Influential Personal Brand podcast. This is AJ Vaden here, one of your co-hosts. And today is Uber. Uber, super duper special because I get to interview a very good close personal friend. In fact, we’ve been online together for already 17 minutes, and I just finally hit record. takes it that long to say our hellos.
DA (00:24):
It’s time for others to join in this conversation just a little bit
AJV (00:28):
. And I have a formal bio that I will read to Dave Avrin. However, everyone, you’ll see it online, it’s David Avrin. But I think it’s really important to know, like Dave is not only a really good close personal friend, an incredible speaker. He is a multi-time author. But more importantly I think what everyone really needs to know is that much of the genesis of Rory Vaden, you know, my partner in crime, my husband, much of the genesis of his brand, take the Stairs, really came through the work that Rory did. And the conversations with Dave and Rory credits you in so many stories. And I think that what people don’t know is that you, you can’t do for yourself often what other people can pull out of you. Right? And I think so much that’s what we do at Brand Builders Group.
AJV (01:22):
It’s why books are so important. It’s like you can’t do for yourself what others you can do in community. And that’s what you did for Rory. And Rory still tells everyone that you’re his mentor for it’s a lifelong mentor. But you’re a close personal friend. I think you’re just so wicked talented. You’re the best dad, awesome husband. So anyone who is listening, I would just encourage you, this is kind of one of those episodes that you just wanna stick around for because we’re gonna be talking about what it’s like to become a highly paid professional speaker. What it’s like to write several books and more importantly of what his new book is about is how do you become ridiculously easy to do business with? And it doesn’t matter who you are, where you’re at in your journey, what your business is, we all should want to become ridiculously easy to do business with.
AJV (02:11):
So this is an episode for you, right? Sometimes I go, here’s what it’s for. Here’s what it’s not for, but today it’s for you. It’s for all of you. So with that, let me give you a little bit of the formal accolades and then we’ll jump right in. All right. Here’s what you need to know about Dave Rin. He’s one of the most in demand customer experience speakers out there. He also does tons of consultings for companies all around the world. He is A CSP, which is a certified speaking professional for the National Speakers Association. He’s a global speaking fellow. He has spoken in 24 countries around the world, and, you know, you have a lot of years left. So I’m, I’m thinking that you could probably hit 50, right? So I think you should be going for 50 countries at minimum. His insights have been shared all across all media, all around the world. And at this point, what, how many, is this your fifth, sixth book?
DA (03:06):
This is my seventh book altogether. My seventh book, sixth business book. I also wrote a sappy Dad book in there. But yeah, my sixth business book,
AJV (03:15):
Y’all,
DA (03:17):
Y’all
AJV (03:18):
Such a lifelong. And here’s what I would say. It’s like, I think this is like one of the, those great conversations where there’s just a, a firsthand wealth of knowledge, right? Like the co the day’s conversation isn’t gonna be about things that you pulled from other places or things that you learned. It’s what you do. It’s what you live. It’s, it’s how you’ve done this. And that’s kind of where I wanna start. As you might be somewhat newer to some of the people in our audience, and we have a lot of people in our audience who aspire to write a book one day Sure. And speak on stages one day. So what I would love for you to share with everyone is, how’d you get into this? How long have you been doing it? And what should that aspiring speaker or aspiring author know? What do they need to know?
DA (04:02):
Sure. Well, I, I think first I would be remiss if I didn’t acknowledge the, the, the lovely introduction and the acknowledgement, you know, it was, or in my careers. I, I look back at, at you and, and Rory and the, the tremendous work and the, and the pride I have welling, welling up inside me. I, I feel very paternal, but, but very proud. I, when I met early or met Rory, he was 19 years old and in incredible potential. And I, I love that line that says, for those of us who have enjoyed a measure of success, it’s important that we send the elevator back down and, and, and to help up. And I watch what you do now, and both of you and the audience and the, and the people and the brands that you’ve built, and the careers that you’ve bolstered is phenomenal.
DA (04:44):
I mean, my, my background and everybody has a background, right? Everybody starts somewhere. And, and I was in marketing and public relations for many, many years. I helped organizations craft the words they use to better describe what they do. That was the early part of my career. I, I worked for some, some major brands and, and was on staff. I was the PR director of Children’s Hospital in Denver, Colorado in my early twenties. And I had great success in generating publicity and coverage and on Good Morning America and Oprah and today’s show and all the magazines. But the world has changed in a significant way. And what was then back trying to get on magazines on our radio shows. Today, of course, it’s blogs and podcasts and different ways for us to communicate. But I, I made a transition about, about 25 years ago as I realized that that you can actually get paid to teach what you know.
DA (05:37):
And so after having a, a reasonable career in this work, I, I was invited to speak at an organization and, and it was just, it was to the core who I was. ’cause I think I’m, I’m a teacher at, at the core. And, and it just grew from there. So now we’re in my 25th year. I speak for a living full time, and I leverage that for consulting. And we have a, a variety of others, you know, assessments and, and, and that as well. But, but to the core, it’s, it’s, I I love sharing from the, from the front of the room. As you had mentioned, this is my, my sixth book. And I think all of that’s important because it’s important to stay relevant. It’s important to stay current. And we look back at what we knew 10 years ago and, and we better know something different today if we’re teaching the same things and sharing the same information and strategies that we did 10 years ago.
DA (06:28):
It’s antiquated how we buy, how we connect, how we learn and pay, and, and, and share is all different. So it’s exciting for me because there’s always something to, to learn. There’s always some new strategies and tactics to share. And I’m fortunate, actually, it’s been 26 countries now that I, that I’ve spoken in around the, around the world. In, in November I’m in, oh boy, here’s some geographic name dropping. I’m really fortunate ’cause I gotta bring my lovely wife with me. We’re, we’re speaking in London, Barcelona, Amsterdam, Malta Vienna and Gdansk. I love that. So it’s just, it’s a tremendous, it’s a tremendous time of life.
AJV (07:07):
I love that. And you know, one of the things you said that I want you to circle back on, ’cause I remember my early days, and this was Lord, 18 years ago when I was, you know, joined the Nationals of Speakers Association, my early twenties, and was going to all these sessions, learning from people who’d been in the business for 10, 15, 20, 25 years. And I remember sitting in this one particular session, and a question was asked, like, you know, how do you book speaking gigs? Like, how, how do you get on these stages? Like, I want to do that. And I remember one of the speakers was like, well, you know, you just need to answer the phone when it rings. Oh,
DA (07:43):
Wouldn’t that be nice?
AJV (07:45):
Why did you make the phone ring?
DA (07:48):
Oh, yesterday year,
AJV (07:49):
. So this is a question that still plagues me today. And so I would love for you to share, it’s like, how did you make the transition from like being in corporate marketing to that first invitation to speak to, oh no, like, this is my job now. Like, this is my thing. I am a speaker. How did that happen?
DA (08:10):
Well, you know, I, I, let me, let me start by saying, here’s what many of us have learned. Speaking is not a business. It’s not getting the gig is the business speaking’s the performance. We love to do that. I, I we talk to countless people who, who have, is something burning in their heart, this passion I wanna share. I want to touch lives. Nobody’s hiring speakers because you want to touch lives. The, the nobody’s hiring speakers because you want a cathartic experience and exercise your demons or your therapy on stage. I’m actually fortunate that I’m on the main stage at, for the National Speakers Association this year in my session, my very first slide is somebody putting on a pair of blue rubber gloves. And I’m gonna say, hang on friends, this is gonna be uncomfortable. You’re gonna feel a little pressure. And there’s just a lot of nonsense in this business.
DA (08:57):
And I love sharing what it really takes. And I’ll talk about sort of the marketing aspect of it. But one of the interesting things is we have a very interesting profession because arguably, it’s the only profession where most people get into this business because they’re encouraged by somebody who has no idea what it really is. Oh my God, that story about you and surviving cancer, when you climb that mountain and you fell into that crevasse and you say, you should be a professional speaker, I love the way you tell stories. You could touch people’s lives. And I wanna say, I think you should just feed your family. Now, if you can use that story and leverage it to help companies increase their sales and guard against disruption and future proof their engagement or motivate their people, that’s legitimate as well. Then there’s something there.
DA (09:39):
But the reality is, the business of speaking is, is marketing. I, I, I hear people say, listen, I took a, I took a three day bootcamp on hand gestures, and I can’t get the phone to ring. And I’m like, pick up the phone. You know, or the, here, here, here’s the, here’s the, and I and I go on a rant about this. People say, you know, the world needs to hear your story. They don’t, sorry, they don’t, they need to increase their sales. Now if your story can help them do that, right? And so that’s the mind shift that, that’s so important. For me, it was a, a seminal moment. And it was actually at one of the, the National Speakers Association conferences where I, I had a real learning moment. I had had a new book. My, my book.
DA (10:21):
It’s not who you know, it’s who Knows You had come out. And I was 20 years ago, and I was doing very well, and I was talking about my speaking business. And I was sitting around with some colleagues and our, our mutual friend, Dave Horse Hager I talked about my business and he said, dude, you don’t have a business. And I looked at him, I said, what are you talking about? I said, this is my best year ever. He said, no, no, no. You have gigs. You don’t have a business. And I said, what’s the difference? He says, what, how much are you gonna make next year? I said, I have no idea. I said, of course you don’t because you have no process. How are you finding contacts and turning ’em into leads? Are you turning leads into prospects? How are you leveraging and converting those prospects into paying clients and, and beating out other speakers for that, for that particular slot? He says, you are so headed for a fall.
DA (11:07):
He says, I’ve seen this before. I’ve seen speakers make seven figures and they can’t pay their mortgage two years ago because what they were talking about was hot. He says, you need to put a business behind it. And so that’s what we did. And I went home that night and I didn’t sleep. And I went home and I talked to my wife at the end of the conference and we talked about how do we do this? And how do we find a way to hire staff and create systems and process. And to be clear, it’s not an automated system. I don’t automate anything. Yeah, I could, I could hit one click and reach 50,000 prospects to say, Hey, hire David as a speaker, and 99.9% will never be opened. So we have gotten very good at creating a process. We, we find ways, we find organizations that hold meetings.
DA (11:51):
We look ’em up, we find out who they had for LA last year, when their next meeting is. We know when to pitch. And we try and make it very simple. We know that the, the one behavior that is predictive of our success is if I can get prospects, people who hold meetings to watch my preview video, if I, it’s pretty good. And if they watch that, I have a chance. If they don’t, they don’t. So I don’t wanna go too deep into it. It there, but, but you’re right. It’s a business. It’s a business. And it’s a business that I’m, I’m up at 5:00 AM I go to the gym. I try and be at my desk no later than six 30 or seven. ’cause I wanna get a little bit of work. And because I have a lot of clients internationally. And so, you know, it, it’s a business. And I think the, probably the most elusive thing in the speaking business is longevity, because most speakers starve. We, we like to call new speakers, ignorance on fire. They, they’re so passionate that, and I’m, I’m, I’m on a mission to help speakers feed their families so they can do this for a long time.
AJV (12:51):
You know what I love about this? And, and I kind of knew what you were gonna say, which is why I asked it. But I think it’s such an important message for everyone to hear, because what people love is creating content, sharing their content,
DA (13:05):
Performing. Yeah. Performing.
AJV (13:06):
It’s great. But what you have to become amazing at is the sales, the marketing. Right? Absolutely. I, we had this conversation not too long ago at one of our events, and someone said, well, you know, I’m, I’m running out of, you know, you know, kind of running outta rope before I’m gonna have to go back and get a full-time job. And my question is, well, how many sales calls are you making every day? And they kind of looked at me and I was like, every week. And they kinda looked at me and they’re like, what do you mean by sales calls? And I was like, okay, wow. We need to, we need to talk about actually how you get booked on stages. Yeah. Yeah. And that seems that you’re calling people, you’re emailing people, you’re doing outreach. This is sales.
DA (13:54):
So much of the conversation is around the passion and the story and, and stepping into your truth and, and or stepping into your power and speaking your truth. It’s nonsense. It’s nonsense. And, and people, that, that’s really hurtful for people. I don’t mean it to be because it’s coming from a good place. People are telling other people, speakers are telling other people their friends and family, oh my God, you have this, you’re so good at telling stories. If you have passion in your heart, if you have a drive, you can be a No. It’s, I mean, that’s, that’s the foundation of it. I mean, you don’t have to be great to make it as, you don’t have to be great. You have to be good. Mm-Hmm. Your content has to be great, but you have to have sales and marketing. And, and I don’t know why that’s scary for people.
DA (14:37):
I, I think some people are, are reluctant to be, seem overly self-promotional. But the reality is you will touch very few lives. You’ll make a very small impact if you don’t get booked. Yeah. And think of it like any other, other business. And you and Rory have been teaching this for years. People don’t know who they don’t know. Hmm. And I’m not, I’m not famous. I’m good at what I do. There’s a lot of people who are good at what they’re, I’m not on Shark Tank. Right. I don’t have that kind of a platform. So we hustle and we work and we work and and half of the, the presentations, the gigs that I get are from organizations who had no idea who I was until we reached out to them.
AJV (15:16):
Perhaps. I think everyone needs to pause and let that sink in. It’s like, if you think some bureau is gonna fill up your calendar, or you think some agent’s gonna show up on your door and magically get you booked or any of that, the truth is you’re the agent,
DA (15:32):
Well, you’re your sales director. Yeah. That’s the other partner as well, is even when I got staff, and this is sort of the, the, the, the quintessential E-Myth, right? It’s Michael Gerber. That, that we feel like as long as suddenly we have help. So we kind of push it to them like, good, finally you go do it. You can’t abdicate, right? We, we, we think that, that we’re delegating. We’re not, we’re abdicating. You go do it. It doesn’t work that way. You have to be the sales director of your own organization until you get big enough to actually hire a sales director. But if you’re big enough to be able to, to have an assistant I I, I love that line. I’m trying to think who said it that if you aren’t, if you don’t have an assistant, you are your assistant, right? .
DA (16:11):
And so, but, but we also have a responsibility. We can’t bring on that second person until we are confident that we can cover their salary for at least a year. Right? ’cause it takes time, but it’s time, it’s process. But here’s the best part, aj, it’s worth it. It’s worth it because you gotta feed your family while you get to do what you maybe were, were born to do. But, but ultimately it has to be in the service of others. It has to be to help them do what they do. They’re not paying you 10, $15,000 for you to have a cathartic experience and bring joy to people’s lives. Right. and so, and, and, and because I’ve had a measure of success, and I’ve done this for a long time, I’m, I’m approached by a lot of people who want to tell me their story. Right? Here’s what I’ve done. Here’s what I want to do. You know, I survive cancer. I I won this Olympic medal. And, and listen, I’m not mocking ’cause I haven’t done any of those things. But the, your business is not about your story. It’s about how do you leverage your story in the service of others. And, and it has to be unique enough. So there’s a lot to go into, but yeah. Sales and marketing, sales and market, I love that.
AJV (17:18):
How do you think books play into this meeting? Very
DA (17:23):
Important.
AJV (17:24):
So, you know, clearly you think so because every time I talk to you, there’s a new book coming out and maybe we just need to talk more . I feel like you come out a lot of books, right? And it’s like I think it’s, you know, it’s so funny ’cause Rory and I are in the process of writing our next book, which is together. And we were just talking about the writing process. And you know, the last time that we were in the writing process was 2012, 12 years ago. And we’re like, man, like dust off the cobwebs. And I, we know how important it is in terms of just being able to, well, one, we believe in the power of books. I believe the Power book, it has the power to change a life. I think it’s a, a really important component of legitimizing the, all of the thoughts that we have and formalizing them into something that someone else
DA (18:16):
Absolutely.
AJV (18:17):
And, you know, digest and actually act on. But in terms of the power of a book and how it can help you build your business. Yeah. Like how, how, how would you say that all integrates?
DA (18:29):
Well, it, it, it doesn’t in a big way. And I’m gonna, and I’m gonna challenge one small thing that you said. First of all, I, I write books not because it’s time for another book. It’s, it’s relevance, it’s gravitas, right? It’s that credibility that they’re the person that wrote that book. But I’m also very cognizant that a lot of people aren’t gonna read it. Larry Wingett is, is is a little cynical about it. He says, I sell souvenirs in the back of the room, , right? And I read all, and I write all I read all of his books. But I do that as well. I mean, it’s, it’s a nice ego boost. I get done speaking and people line up and they wanna take pictures or sign book, but I know a good number of them are never gonna read it. I just say, put it on the shelf next to good to great.
DA (19:09):
Or take the stairs or atomic habits. So I look like a big deal. I hope people read my books. I put a lot into it. But, but even if they don’t, here’s, here’s the value. And it’s a tremendous value. It’s credibility. They’re the ones who wrote X or Y. We find that in our marketing and in our sales processes, we’re introducing people to me as a speaker and a, a good resource for their next conference. Just the fact that I have a book coming out there in peaks their interest, which is really interesting that it’s just as valuable in the lead up phase as it is to when you publish it. And of course, the time afterwards because you don’t want it to be an event. You want it to be a process and a marathon. But books are really important to legitimize that.
DA (19:54):
Why are we turning to this person for consulting or speaking another ’cause they’re the ones who wrote blank, right? Most people’s first book tends to be just a compilation of blogs and articles that they’ve written. If like, I’ve written all of this stuff, let’s put it all together in some reasonably linear fashion, but it doesn’t really work. And I’ll freely admit, that was my first book. It was just, here’s a compilation of all my writings. But I try and be much more intentional now. Everybody comes up with a title they think is the, the Cure for Cancer that tastes like chocolate. And then we learn. I learned, I learned from Rory, I learned from Rory when, when he learned the lesson and realized that and what he teaches and, and I took this to heart, was that title has to be something aspirational.
DA (20:40):
Like I want that. And I didn’t learn my lesson. I had a book I that came out during Covid called The Morning Huddle, which was the physical manifestation of a video series that I had created. And it’s all these great conversations for your morning huddle. Nobody sits around and says, I need the morning huddle. Right? I don’t I need, but do they need to know how to be ridiculously easy to work with? Do they or to to do business with? Do they need to know why customers leave? My book, why Customers Leave and How to Win Them Back is in six languages now because it’s perfectly aligned with Rory’s lesson about that’s aspirational. I want that. I wanna know that. And so there’s a whole process. I’m actually holding a, a, a retreat to help people write their first book.
DA (21:24):
And there’s so many people, you know, people come up to you all the time saying, how do you do that? God, I wish I could write away. Well, you can. But I think there’s also a, a, a fallacy that writers enjoy writing. I I don’t, I think I’m a good writer. It’s just, it’s agony for me, but I’m disciplined. I do it because I need to feed my family. I’ve got five colleges. I’m paying for five colleges and, and four employees. And so I work, but I, there’s a famous line, A woman was asked, famous author, I can’t remember her name. She was asked if she, she says, they were asked her, do you enjoy writing? And I loved her answer. She says, I love to have written . I’m like, that, yes, that it’s, but there’s also that moment. And you guys know that, that moment when that box arrives and you, and you and you put a knife across the seam and you open it up and you, and you look at it and you grab it and you feel it, and you go, wow, that’s my book.
DA (22:18):
Like, I, I did this. Like, I, I wrote a book and, and you’ve seen it on the screen and, but now you can touch it and hold it. It’s, it’s powerful. It’s really powerful. And, and it’s something that many millions of people talk about and a much smaller fraction actually do it. So it’s incredibly important. It’s a legacy thing, depending on what it is you wanna write. It’s a galvanization of the content and the knowledge that you’ve learned over the years that you can, you can put down on paper and is there for, for history. It’s an accomplishment. But for a business, it’s credibility. It ab it absolutely helps. They don’t have to buy your book. They don’t have to read your book. But the fact that you wrote it and take some time and write a good book, don’t have ai, write it for you. Write your book. It’s credibility. And that’s really important. It, it drives, it drives your fee structure. It drives your visibility. Very, very important.
AJV (23:15):
Yeah. You know, one of the things that we talk about all the time is you can actually look at the trajectory of any speaker’s kind of financial path in terms of their fees and literally go no book, book bestselling book, right? A Wall Street Journal, bestselling book, New York Times bestselling book. And it’s like, you can literally watch, you know, the, the escalation percent when it comes to fee structure with the enhancement of that credibility. And so, so I think that’s just a really important conversation also leading up to this new book that you have released, which I think it’s a killer title, and I think everyone wants that. So let’s talk a little bit about this new book, ridiculously easy to do business with. And I think we would all like to know how do we become that, right? So what, what’s, what’s the book about?
DA (24:10):
Sure. the book is about, I mean, at the, at the core, it’s customer experience. I spent the early part of my career as a speaker and a consultant, probably the first 15 years, talking about marketing and branding. How do we better describe what we do? How do, how do we choose and craft those words? But I saw a significant change happening in the marketplace. And this was of course, with the advent of social media and social proof and, and mobile devices and everything else. And it became very clear that what we say about ourselves while not unimportant, is far less impactful today than what other people say about us. And so that was the research that went into my book, why Customers Leave. And we’re in a time, a really remarkable time. It’s a great time to be a customer or a client.
DA (24:54):
The, the conveniences are, are off the charts. It’s a tough time to be in business. And so, as I have spoken, because I I’m also a former Vistage chair, I, I led CEO Roundtable groups for years, and I spoke, I’ve spoken to 539 CEO Roundtable groups over the last 15 years. And as I would go around the table, I say, what’s your competitive advantage? Why you, what’s the secret sauce? It’s always some version of the same answer. It’s our superior quality, commitment, caring, trust. It’s about our people. Here’s what the research shows. People are prioritizing. Speed. Customers are prioritizing speed, speed of access, speed of answers, speed of of resolution, speed of delivery simplicity of process, accommodation for unique circumstances. Don’t be rigid. And of course, convenience in many ways. Our, our colleague Sally Hogshead talks about that different is better than better.
DA (25:49):
And I would submit that convenient is better than better. ’cause We’re in a time of pervasive quality. Everybody’s good, everybody’s good. So where are the real opportunities for, for distinction, for standing apart and standing and standing out. And that’s what drove the book ridiculously easy to do business with. It’s about reducing friction at every point possible in the process. If you have a business process an interaction, a purchasing process, or ordering for your clients that was designed 20 year, 10 years ago, it’s already outdated because we’re used to being able to buy with one click. And, and we can lament the loss of iconic brands. You know, we can lament the loss of, of Bed Bath and Beyond, or Toys Are Us. I guarantee you, nobody’s struggling to find toys. Nobody’s struggling to find toys. Why did they go? They, because we have other better options, better by some measure.
DA (26:43):
It’s more convenient, it’s more prevalent, whatever that might be. And so in the book, I I, I came up with 28 different ways to to be ridiculously easy. And, and I, on our business, I was on a podcast and somebody was asking me how, why is it that business just doesn’t get it? And I said, I think they get it. Of course they get it. It’s very smart, very good people running businesses. But I think there’s a grand experiment going on, which is, how much can we cut? How much can we push to the consumers? How much self-checkout before it’s that law of diminishing return. And they say, this has gotten so frustrated that frustrating, that now we’re gonna go somewhere else and we’re still figuring out what that is. There, young people I, I heard that somebody said, for the first time ever, we’re serving five generations at the same time.
DA (27:30):
And I was, and young people want to buy very different than older people, and we have to find ways of serving all of them. Those points of frustration, some of ’em are pretty obvious about being ridiculously easy to reach or to resolve issues. But I even cover chapters. You need to be ridiculously easy to see. Most marketing collateral, material, business cards, and others are designed by people in their twenties and thirties. 65% of all is by people over 50. I can’t see any of that. . I’m 60 years old. I’ve got reading glasses everywhere we go. We go into restaurants now and, and I can’t read menus. They’re, they’re too small or they’re on a QR code and they make us watch it on our, you know, look at the menu on our cell phones. And so I think businesses trying really hard to, to manage that customer journey, to do things that are efficient and effective and profitable.
DA (28:23):
And my job is to bring an external perspective of saying, here’s what’s frustrating for your customers. And why is that important? Because we have a bullhorn that reaches around the world now. We have Yelp and TripAdvisor and Rotten Tomatoes and, and Glassdoor. Everybody’s good today because if you weren’t, you would be outed very, very quickly. And so in the book, ridiculously easy to do business with, it’s sort of a here’s an outside perspective on all of your systems and processes, and here’s how your customers really feel about it. And it’s also a way to sort of future proof your engagement and say, how do you think business? How do you think your customers want to do business with you? Or will wanna do business with you not 10 years from now, two years from now? What do we need to start doing now to, to make those tweaks and adjustments?
DA (29:09):
We’re all competing against Amazon and Uber in terms of simplicity of process. And I think there’s a lot of lessons to be learned. I’ve been very gratified. We’ve just been out as of the recording of this, this podcast. We’ve just been out for a couple of weeks. We went to number one very, very quickly in the consumer relations category. I think we were number two in, in entrepreneurialism or something else. And of course that’s Amazon. I mean, let’s talk legitimate. The goal is Wall Street Journal or New York Times or others as well. But it’s a process. And it’s for anyone in business to be not just competent, not just capable, but preferable. And that’s the key that we don’t talk.
AJV (29:49):
You said this and I’m curious to know in the book, like what are some of the biggest frustrations that customers have with companies? Like what are they?
DA (30:00):
Yeah. Well, the, some of the frustrations are obvious ones, which is just when we’re literally yelling into the phone. Real person, real person agent, I think you said no. Oh, right. You know, and, and there’s, I unders I’m not naive. I understand that AI and chatbots, and it’s, it’s all part of where we are and it’s all part of where we’re going. But when they make it so difficult to get an off ramp to a real person when you need one I’m, I think I’m the only person on the planet. I’ve never had a a question that’s frequently asked apparently, because I can never find my issue. And one of the things I talk about is, is there’s a strategy, is that if you, if you are really frustrated and you can’t get through, whether you’re typing in a chat bot or you’re on the phone, just start shouting profanity into the phone and, and AI recognizes that it’s frustrat and they’ll transfer you to a real person or, or just yell, know, cancel membership.
DA (30:54):
And then you get to, and, and people laugh and, and it’s true. It’s unfortunate. Why, why do we have to yell profanity, right? In order to talk to get mad to get attention. Why do we have to get to that point? And then here’s the thing. ’cause I have a real heart for customer, customer service agents. What a tough job. But now organizations are, are, are frustrating their customers to the point where by the time we talk to a real person, they’re being inundated and abused all day long. I think it’s incredibly unfair that they do that to, to those representatives. What else? It, it’s, it’s an inflexibility that it, that shouldn’t be. Somebody was asking like, how could this possibly be getting worse if we’ve been talking about customer service or experience, whatever for 50 years, how could it be getting worse?
DA (31:41):
And it is, and here’s why is because we’re getting more rigid. We’re trying so hard in our companies to have some level of predictability in the process. Here’s how they reach out or learn about us and, and, and inquire and buy and negotiate and pay and deliver and, and it works, right? ’cause And if we can have greater level of predictability of that process, we can predict revenue and cash flow, right? And we can plan for that. We can hire for that. The problem is, your customers haven’t read your employee manual. They don’t know how they’re supposed to buy from you. They just know how they want to. But that’s changing. So we get rigid and we say no to stupid things. You know, I was checking out of a hotel and they’re like, sorry, we’re not doing any late checkouts. I’m like, I can’t get out.
DA (32:26):
I’m going to a And they say, yeah, we’re gonna charge you for a second day if you can’t be open. I’m like, okay, then I just won’t check out of the room. There we go. I just pay for another. And it’s, it was an easy yes, but the manager said, no, they checkouts today. Right? And the pushback I get for this kind of flexibility, I think is really important. I get this pushback and they say, well, if we do it for you or if we do it for him, we to do it for everyone. And my answer is, no, you don’t. It’s your business. They, it, it’s such a crutch. Well, if we do it for you, we have to do it for everyone. You do whatever your works for your customers. Most won’t need the special accommodations. And so when I talk about being ridiculously easy, like I have clients all over the world.
DA (33:05):
I’ve got clients in Mumbai and Singapore and Johannesburg. When I have a call with a client, a Zoom call, I’m the one talking at two o’clock in the morning or three o’clock every time. It’s never them because I am ridiculously easy to do business with them because my competitors, my colleagues, our friends, they’re phenomenal. I have, we are, we have such great colleagues who are so good at what they do. What’s my competitive advantage? Yeah. I’m gonna knock it out of the park on stage, but I’m also not gonna make you search for a phone number. I’m not gonna make you fill out a contact form in order to reach a real person. I, I, I thank speakers all the time, and I’ve spoken at nine of the international associations. I said, I want to thank you all for putting contact forms instead of emails on your website because you put my kids through college because I’m, I’ve already sent over a a contract by the time they’ve responded to your, your, your contact form.
DA (34:03):
I, I, and, and to be fair, I’ve got multiple small business, they all have contact forms and I have cell phone numbers for every member of my team. We have email addresses. I’m ridiculously easy to get in touch with. I mean, there’s, there’s some maddening things, AJ of, of companies that make it difficult to reach you. I mean, are are you that good that your customers are gonna put up with that? And, and people say, well, you don’t have life balance if you’re, I’m not talking to three o’clock in the morning every day, but this feeds my family. Hmm. And my, my clients ask, and the answer is yes. What’s the question? Hmm. Right, because
AJV (34:39):
That’s good. I literally, yesterday as you’re talking, I’m like, this would, like, this literally happened to me yesterday. I signed up for this health portal and I won’t share their name, but it’s like this supposedly amazing thing that was referred by a very good friend, and you do all this blood work and then it’s kind of putting the patient back in control of all of your panels. Yeah. So doctors don’t own it. And it was like a really cool concept. So I’ve been trying to schedule my second round of blood work, right? There’s no email address, there’s no phone number. The chat bot keeps saying, can’t accept request right now. So I’m like, I can’t chat with you. I can’t call you, I can’t email you and it won’t let me schedule my appointment and it has to be in a certain period of time, which now has expired. Now I have to wait 30 more days to use what I’ve paid for. And it was like, I to the point of like, if I can’t use it, I want a refund. I can’t talk to anyone to even request it. Right? And so it’s, but
DA (35:35):
That, but that’s the other thing. That’s the other thing thing. And you talk about where the frustrations are about organizations that make it ridiculously easy to cancel. Well, they do that on purpose. I think it’s slimy. Or, or here’s the other one is they they give you a free trial, but it’s not a free trial. Right? Sign up for a free trial. What’s the requirement? You have to give ’em your credit card information. Right? And then we have a, that that wall comes up that, that trepidation. It’s the number one reason for abandoned shopping carts in membership trials is a requirement for financial information. So I go through all of that. Yeah. But it’s one of those, it’s like, who designed this process? And that’s the difference between product centric and customer centric. That product centric is, we’re very good at what we do, and so let’s deliver that and sell as many as we can and create market share. Nothing wrong with that. Right. I love that
AJV (36:19):
Too. One of the things that I love, like we’ve had this conversation so often, and like, one of the things that we’re really big advocates of, and I love, like there’s an entire book about this is give it all away for free. In fact, give it away. Give everything away to the point where your customer says, man, I feel like I’ve gotten so much value from you, I need to pay you. And that’s so counterculture, right? It’s, and we brought that up and somebody said, well, aren’t you afraid that people are just take advantage of you? And I’m like, no, I’m not at all. Because they could go get this information for free at tons of places, right? They’re not paying for the information at that point. They’re going, I want it from you because that’s who I’ve begun to trust. That’s who I’m gonna, I, that’s who I like.
AJV (37:08):
Now, this is who I have a relationship with. It’s like the information is out there. Buy a book, listen to a podcast, read a blog, watch YouTube, you know, watch any of the social media platforms. It’s like whatever it is you wanna know, you can go find it. You are not paying for information at this point. You’re paying for experience, relationship, trust, organization, application, execution. You’re paying for those things. So don’t be, don’t be afraid to give things away so that people understand like, there’s real value here. I want to give you my money, not I have to.
DA (37:40):
You know, I think for many of us, we’ve come to realize sometime back, the biggest competitor out there is free, right? I, I think when, when newspapers stopped running the presses and they thought, we’re gonna just think about how much money we’re gonna save and we’ll have everybody use subscription. I’m reading an article online and all of a sudden I get stopped and something pops up that I have to subscribe to the New York Times to read the rest of the article. I don’t because free is pervasive. But, but I like what you said, but I think it goes even further. And this is where you have to accept the, the compliments and realize that some people, when you’ve built a really strong personal brand, when you are known for the wisdom and the content and the value that you provide, there’s a certain category of people that want to touch the robe.
DA (38:24):
They wanna be there because it’s you. They want to, to pay more and get a deeper access to you and information because it’s you. And, and you’ve earned that. And you have to earn that, which is the other part. You can be well known and have a great personal brand, but if it’s not a brand of value and that people aspire to be you to some extent there are people who will come to that workshop to learn from you. There’s things that we can learn almost anything online. You can go to YouTube and you can learn how to use YouTube, right? But when you have built that strong service oriented, high content personal brand, there’s a category of people that will only pay that money and do more than what they could do free because they want to touch the robe. And that’s something that, that you build and something to be proud of, and it’s something to leverage.
AJV (39:17):
Hmm. So if you were going to, you know, kind of summarize some of the highlights of the book and go, all right, everyone who’s listening, clearly we don’t have time to talk about all 28 things, but if there were two or three things that you’re like, hands down, yeah, you love me doing this to be ridiculously easy to ba do business with, what are some of those things?
DA (39:38):
I, and lemme go a little bit broader and which is the importance of, of sort of the concept. I was about to keynote a conference and the, the CEO was on before I was there was a huge organization. There was probably 800 people in the audience. And the CEO was doing the big rah rah speech. And at the very end, he said, and, and remember, we’re gonna win on quality. At the end of the day, it’s about quality. And everybody cheered and went crazy. And I thought to myself, I could not disagree more. At the end of the day, it’s not about quality. It’s not, everybody’s good. Everybody’s got quality at the beginning of the day. It’s about quality. Quality is the entry
AJV (40:13):
Requirement for entry.
DA (40:14):
Quality gives you permission to do business in the marketplace. You better be good or the marketplace will figure it out. But at the end of the day, it’s about competitive advantage. It’s not what do you do? Well, what do you do better than others who do it well? And so back to the book, I I laid out 28 short chapters of here’s all the things that you can do to gain a competitive advantage. Recognize that your competitors are all good. And here’s the worst thing about competitors, and nobody says this out loud. Most of those competitors are very, very nice people. They’re, they’re, they’re not our our enemies. They’re, they’re our, our our colleagues in arms. They’re all, we’re all trying to feed our families. And, and if you, if you believe that you’re so good that, that everybody has to discover you and they’re gonna reject everybody else.
DA (41:00):
I heard somebody saying that, that they what makes us different is we actually do what we say we’re gonna do. There you go. And I look at ’em, I said, you actually believe that. Don’t you? Do you actually believe that your competitors are consistently underperforming and that they have yet they have, but to discover you, everybody’s good. You need a competitive advantage. And the competitive advantage is eliminate friction. Don’t, don’t make your customers do business the way you want them to do if they want it to do differently. So it’s taking a step back. It’s understanding what customer centricity really means. And all of this, of course, profitably but we’re in a very competitive environment. I think the theme of the book and the examples are all about, here’s how you do it, here’s why. It’s, it’s a challenge for us. And here’s, here’s a different way.
DA (41:47):
And each one, each chapter has stories and examples and marketplace examples and research to bolster the points. But it’s very, very, I mean, even the, the tagline says it’s a practical guide to giving customers what they want, how and when they want it. And it’s an ongoing process, and it’s of, of reexamination. And it’s also my mantra and my message as I, as I travel the country and travel around the world my presentations are, there’s a lot of humor. It’s very entertaining. But I use that strategically to temper a tough message about what it takes to compete and win today. And whether you’re in small business, whether you’re building your brand, whether you aspire to be a speaker or consultant, it’s a business and you treat it like a business.
AJV (42:32):
Hmm. So what would you say if I were to ask you, when you say, sure, you know, this cocom competitive advantage, and that’s a part of what you’ve gotta figure out, like what is, as a speaker and an author, what is your competitive advantage?
DA (42:46):
My competitive advantage is, is a, I’m always relevant. And I, and I am committed to delivering it, knocking outta the park on the, on the stage every time that I think is the entry fee. I I am, I’m really good at what I do, as others are as well. My competitive advantage is I never stop marketing. I never stop selling. Through covid, through all of that as well, I did 87 virtual presentations on a webcam in my home studio because I don’t, I don’t, I don’t have a plan b hmm. And I love what I do, but I don’t get to do it if I don’t have clients to do it for. And so my competitive advantage is that I will outmarket. When we have somebody, we have a, a potential hit, I do a, a BombBomb video message, and I talk to ’em, hi, it’s David Verin, thanks for this. Here’s what we, I can’t wait to work with you. Here’s all the books that I’ve written, and we send ’em a book and here’s what we do on our first email. And here’s what we do on our second email. If they don’t respond, here’s how we put ’em back in the system. We don’t automate anything. My competitive advantage is we are relentless and we are diligent, and we are strategic, and we are ridiculously easy to do business with.
AJV (44:01):
I mean, honestly, see a great
DA (44:03):
Way to wrap that up.
AJV (44:04):
What competitive and competitive advantage should be. I always do outreach, right? It’s
DA (44:09):
Always that. There’s, there’s, that’s, that’s a good way of synopsis, synopsis, outreach never stops. I’m not famous. I’m good at what I do. The people who I do business with love me. My friends and family love me. You guys love me, I love you guys. But there’s a huge portion of the population who has no idea who, who, who I am and that I exist. I talk to people. If you’re in a, in an auditorium or a conference center and you’re speaking to 600 people, there’s 4.3 million people within a a 60 mile radius who have no idea you’re there. Yeah. So how do we leverage proximity? How do we leverage? So yeah, outreach is incredibly important. It’s probably the most important thing for my longevity.
AJV (44:52):
I love that. And I think for everyone who’s listening, if you would just take a minute or five or 10, whatever you got and ask yourself like, what is my competitive advantage? And it’s not that I care a lot, and it’s not that I have a superior product. It’s not that it’s a high quality product or whatever else. It’s like, what is your competitive advantage? And I think also asking yourself the question, which hopefully is similar, but what makes it ridiculously easy to do business with me
DA (45:24):
Or ridiculously easy to choose you, right? That, that’s a whole chapter in the book as well. It’s not even just how you do business. Make it ridiculously to easy to choose you over your competitors. And to do that, you need to be really clear what others are doing. We never denigrate them. We never criticize competitors. I love com. I love complimenting competitors. They’re phenomenal. But this is what I do. They do this and this and this and this. They’re really great. But this is, but I specialize in this, but well, that’s what I need. I I think it’s a better choice. So that market analysis is important. We could talk all day, but I know you have time constraints.
AJV (46:02):
I know this is so good though. I love it. And y’all, I would highly encourage for you to go pick up the book. I already have the book. It’s on my summer read list. And I’m even more intrigued now to go, what are these, you know, 28 things? And and now I’m like, well, I need my team to know what these 28 things are. And I love that what you said too, it’s like you have to identify the friction points, right? And that just means all of us have to take a step back as a consumer. And I, that would be like a, a great, I think just even for me, I’m just going like, man, I wonder when the last time I, like, I clicked through our website, how easy is it to get in touch with me? And if I wondered if I, like with an anonymous email hit our customer care at email, how quickly people would respond. And it’s like, I’m so curious now to go through our own systems and process.
DA (46:52):
You could shop yourself. Yeah, that’s a great idea. Where
AJV (46:54):
Are our friction points as a consumer? And as a, an entrepreneur business owner you should know those, right? And so ask yourself, when’s the last time that I actually went through my own processes the own systems with our team to go, where is it hard? Where is there friction? And how can I make it easier? And I love that. ’cause I think what you said earlier, and I wanna kind of like wrap it with this, is speed is really becoming an increasingly important part of why people do business with you
DA (47:25):
Very much. Jay Bair did some groundbreaking breaking research on that recently as well. Great colleagues, Jay Bear and Shep Hyken and Roger Dooley wrote a book called Friction that changed my life. I, I, I am so annoyed looking at the world now because he’s made me hyper aware of things I hadn’t even thought of before. So we have wonderful colleagues in this space. But, but yeah, go pick up the book, Amazon,
AJV (47:50):
Amazon,
DA (47:51):
Easy to do business with.
AJV (47:53):
And I will put the direct link to pick up the book and the show notes. And for everyone else, make sure you stick around for the recap version, which will be coming next. Dave, love you, love what you’re doing too. Such a rich conversation. Thank you so much for being here. And if people want to follow you, stay in touch with you. What’s your preferred platform?
DA (48:13):
My, you can check me out on my [email protected], and then it gets a little complicated. And on Instagram, it’s the real David Aver, and that’s a catfish for another day. But yeah, check me out. Instagram, the real David Rin TikTok, it’s I think real David Rin. But if, if there are hundreds or thousands of followers, it’s the real account. Otherwise, it’s not me. Go to my website, david rin.com.
AJV (48:36):
So go to his website, david aver.com, go to Amazon, pick up the book ridiculously easy to do business with. Thank you guys for being here. We’ll see you next time.

Ep 503: 3 Ways to Make One Million Dollars With a Personal Brand

Speaker 1 (00:00):

What are three ways to make a million dollars from a personal brand, three fastest ways? This is a good question, and we’ve done all three of these, and I’m gonna walk you through each one. So the first one is speaking. Speaking is, here’s how you make a million bucks as a speaker. $20,000 speech times, 50 gigs a year, 20,000 bucks a speech times 50 gigs a year is a million dollars. Now, to get to be a $20,000 speaker takes work, right? It takes hustle, but you can get there. I mean, I got to that fee range probably in four or five years, not even four to five years. You could really get there. I’ve got friends that have gotten to that range in like two to three years. So if you know what you’re doing and you’re good on stage and you get, if you get good coaching on how to be amazing on stage, and you have a clear message and clear positioning, that’s how you get to a million bucks as a speaker.

Speaker 1 (00:57):

What about membership sites? We’ve also made millions of dollars with membership sites. So how do you make a million dollars a year with a membership site? Super simple. You charge a hundred dollars a month and you get a thousand customers, right? Simple math, a hundred, a hundred dollars a month, a thousand customers. If you get a hundred, if you get a thousand people who are paying you a hundred dollars each a month, that’s a hundred thousand dollars a month. That’s $1.2 million annually. And that’s doable. Now you gotta get a thousand customers, but you’re only selling something that’s a hundred dollars a month. Most people spend more than a hundred dollars a month eating out at dinner, and they certainly spend more than that on, you know, car payments and insurance and a whole bunch of stuff. Like, so a hundred bucks a month is a very doable price point.

Speaker 1 (01:49):

And you get a thousand customers. You also could cut that, right? And say we could do $50 a month and get 2000 customers, and that would be another way to get to a million bucks. And retention is gonna be key if you do membership site, but it’s doable. Third way, I would make a million dollars fast with a personal brand. I would say for that one who would be courses, because if you sell a thousand dollars course, you can get a thousand people to buy it. That’s a million bucks, a thousand dollars course. A thousand people to buy it. It’s a million bucks. Now, is it easy? No, it’s not easy, but is it doable? Yeah, it’s doable. I mean, there’s courses, people sell courses for $2,000, $3,000, and you have to be super clear on what course it is that you’re creating. Like, what problem do you solve? What problem can you solve in the world that people would pay a thousand dollars for? Another way of thinking about that is what problem could you solve for people that would be worth $10,000? We call that the rule of 10. The rule of 10 is simple. We always like to price things at like one 10th. The value of what it provides if you solve the problem for somebody. So if I’m gonna sell

Speaker 2 (02:59):

A course for a thousand dollars, I wanna be able to solve a $10,000 problem for people, or I wanna teach them how to make $10,000 at least, hopefully more. But if you can figure out what that is, and you can create a, a course that systematically shows people how to do that, that’s worth a thousand bucks. And then you only need to get a thousand people to buy that thing. And that’s, that’s a million dollars. There’s 8 billion people on the planet, like a thousand people is all you need. So those are three ways to quickly get to a million bucks with a personal brand. There are lots of other ways that you could do it, but those are three of the best ones. But I’m gonna save the best for last. The best one, my favorite one, the, my, my, my absolute favorite way to make a million dollars from a personal brand is to use your personal brand as an engine for monetizing the thing you’re already doing.

Speaker 2 (03:59):

So the fastest path to cash is to sell the thing that you’re already selling. So if you, if you are a doctor, right, you’re gonna sell more patients. If you’re, if you are an accountant, you’re gonna sell more tax services. If you, it doesn’t matter what you’re doing. If you’re an entrepreneur, you’re gonna sell more widgets. Use your personal brand as just an extension of your current business. Just make it a piece of the marketing function of whatever’s already in front of you. If you’re in network marketing or direct sales, just use your personal brand as jet fuel for the business that you already have, and it will be a multiplier and it will help you exponentially make more money faster. And you don’t have to build a new product or a new service offering. The fastest path to cash is to monetize the thing that you’re always doing. So that’s 1, 2, 3, and four ways to quickly make a million bucks with a personal brand.

Ep 502: The Messy Truth of Entrepreneurship with Alli Webb

RV (00:02):
Well, I am so impressed and inspired by this next woman you’re about to meet. Alli Webb is someone who has become a friend. She’s a brand builders group client, and she kind of famously sold, founded and sold Drybar for $255 million. This is back in 2020. So she started Drybar in 2010. It exploded into over 150 locations. Very, very successful product line. She became a New York Times bestselling author as part of that journey, and she has since kind of evolved and, and adapted and diversified into starting many different businesses and using her personal brand to really create enterprise value. She one of their current projects is called Squeeze. I’m AJ and I have been to Squeeze. We love it. It’s, it is massages. They have you know, kind of like health spa sort of situation. And they, Brightside and Beckett and Quill is other businesses that she’s involved with.
RV (01:01):
She’s got a new one called Canopy, where she joined as the, the president Canopy’s, super chic reimagined, humidifiers are making big waves in the beauty industry and innovative beauty device category. So lots of stuff around beauty and health. She’s been a board member of several companies. She’s been on the cover of Inc. Magazine’s, how I did This Issue, she’s been named the hundred most Creative People in Business by Fast Company. She’s been featured on Fortunes 40 Under 40 List Marie Claire’s most fascinating women. And she’s just an amazing, amazing woman who has accomplished so many things. We got to work together on her recent book, the Messy Truth, which of course became a USA Today National Bestseller. And Ally and I became friends, and I was just like, you gotta hear this woman’s story. It’s really, really powerful. So, ally, my friend, welcome to the show.
AW (01:55):
Thank you. And thanks for that warm introduction. I appreciate it.
RV (01:59):
So, I am curious, you know when I think of entrepreneurs, I, I, I almost sort of divide the world into the entrepreneur world, into two categories. There are people who are entrepreneurs, which are like content creators, and, you know, they like do speaking or coaching or, or whatever. And and, and then there are also people in this category who are like you know, professional service providers, financial advisors, CPAs direct salespeople, you know, real estate agents all like actual on, they’re, you know, by definition entrepreneurs, independent contractors, stuff like that. And then I have like a different category. I, I don’t mean to be offensive to either group, but I call ’em real entrepreneurs, which are people who like actually start a company, build it, build it, have to create the marketing, the sales, the product development, the hr, like the whole, the whole thing.
RV (02:57):
They’re not kind of using someone else’s operating system. They’re like building it. And I feel like a lot of the quote unquote real or regular or traditional, maybe traditional entrepreneurs would be a a, a better sense. They kinda look at the people who use their personal brand entrepreneurs and go, eh, I don’t need to build a personal brand. I’m building a business to operate without me. And that’s the whole point. And then you are different. You’ve done both, right? You have straddled both. You’ve built so many real businesses, successful scaling operating entities, but you’ve also put a lot of time into your personal brand. And so I’m just curious, why have you done that? How do you think about that? How do you value it? How do you, how do you justify the quote unquote, time away from your real business to like, kind of build your personal brand? So I’m just curious about that,
AW (03:55):
About that. Well, gosh, I love that framing and that question, and I sitting here listening to that and thinking like, it’s so nice to be asked these kinds of questions now. Like, I feel like I’ve, like graduated from, like, so tell me how you build Drybar, which, you know, is like a, an honest question that most people ask me. And, and, and I’m always happy to share it, but it’s not, it’s, it’s interesting to be asked a question in that framing. So anyways you know, I think that it was a progression, like a gradual progression. And, and it’s funny, and I’m sure you, you experienced this too, as you speak to different entrepreneurs you know, who want different things. And there are those entrepreneurs who, to your point, want to build and grow and scale a company that doesn’t potentially need them eventually, and they can step out and do something else, and they wanna be behind the scenes.
AW (04:46):
You know, I think it’s a, it is, it is a bit of a personality trait. And I, I was just like talking to an entrepreneur that I’m mentoring yesterday, and, and she was saying that her team is really pushing her to be out front and build her own personal brand. And she’s like, I don’t wanna build my own personal brand. I don’t like being in front of the camera. I don’t like being out front. Mm-Hmm. She likes being behind the scenes. So it’s a real, like, personal question of what you like doing, what gives you energy? And, and, and I didn’t, I wouldn’t have known the answer to that question until it was like, thrust upon me. And, and I was, you know, rightfully so, the, you know, brand ambassador for Drybar. It was my idea, it was my baby. I was the hairstylist. Like I was the mom.
AW (05:26):
I was catering to women, like I was the client. So it made sense on multiple levels for me to be the, the, the face of the brand. But you know what, what, what happened as a result of that for me anyways, was like when I, you know, started being on TV and I started being in front of the camera, and I started like, you know, speaking on the brand, like, I really fell in love with that aspect of it, you know? And but it wasn’t like, I wanna go be an actress and be on TV in that regard. Like, I really loved talking about these brands that I built, and more so, because I learned so much as, because I didn’t, you know, this, I didn’t go to college. So I don’t have like any like, degree or any real like pedigree in building a business.
AW (06:11):
I didn’t, I didn’t know a lot when we started, other than the fact that my parents were entrepreneurs. And I had, I had that a little bit, but, you know, I learned on the job. Like, I always say, I feel like I got like a, you know, a business degree growing and building Drybar, and I did, I learned so much. And so I feel so compelled to share all of that. Like, I have so much in my brain that I don’t ever think about, but if you ask me a question about a certain thing, I can usually pull it up a pretty good answer and experience around that thing. And you know, and I think like a lot of, as I’ve gotten older and I’ve been through some, some like pretty crazy hard things, you know, I think it’s brought out this like, you know, piece of me that wants to be of service in lots of different ways.
AW (06:57):
And I think that like my, one of the best ways I can be of service to people is by giving back, like what I’ve learned and being that you know, that place for people to go for when they feel like, I don’t, you know, you’ve done this and, and done that. Like, can, can you, you know, paving the way a bit. So, so I think the decision to build a personal brand ca that’s where it came from, is like a real love for all of it, you know, like, I, I love being on stage. I love talking about my story. I love giving back. And so that’s just, that is a love of mine. So that’s what I’m feeding, you know? And, and I don’t, you know, after, I mean, I built Drybar and I can tell you a hundred things, hundreds of things about how that all happened.
AW (07:41):
But like with Squeeze, for example, Brittany Driscoll, our head of marketing, she, or, or former head of marketing, Drybar, she’s the CEO of Squeeze. She’s in the day-to-Day. I’m not in the day-to-Day. I don’t care to be in the day-to-Day anymore. I’ve done that. I don’t, it is not where I get my energy and life and light from. So, you know, for me, graduating more into the building of a personal brand at this stage felt right. I couldn’t have done this so much in the dry bar days. It was towards the end of the Drybar days that I, I recognized that I wanted to do that.
RV (08:11):
So is, and you think that’s really is how it is, like the success of Drybar, you started to get noticed? Did, did, did, did media outlets start reaching out to you, or did you reach out to them? Like, how did that transition even happen? Like, you’re just, were you minding your own business building, trying to build a successful enterprise? Or were you like hiring PR firms and really trying to get like placements and stuff?
AW (08:34):
Well, I mean, I had, I had a lot of different careers over, you know, like in my twenties, which I highly recommend, you know, people like if you’re, if you’re young and you’re, or even if you’re not young, if you’re listening to this, like go try all the, all the things, you know. And then that’s what I did in my twenties. Like, I, I became a hairstylist, but I also like worked in retail and I was, was, you know, I, I ended up working at Rogers and Cowan, which is a massive PR firm for, you know, this guy named Paul Fur, who was ran the music department. And that was, that experience really taught me how to write and all, all the stops. My point is, all the stops along my journey would, would turn out to be really important. But, so because I worked in pr I really saw firsthand how important PR was.
AW (09:17):
And, and I think it, it looks different in today’s society because it’s like kind of a different kind of marketing PR used to be just like magazines and tv. Then that was it. It’s obviously the social media has changed a lot, but I knew early on before we even opened the, the Doors to Drybar, that we were like, I knew we, I knew we would be able to get good PR because we were such a new concept. So it was like a no brainer. We were gonna go do that. It wasn’t until, you know, we were crafting the pitch, which you do when you’re, you’re working on a, you know, trying to, you know, pitch sell something out there that it was like, oh, okay. You know, in con early, early conversations with our PR team was like, what, what makes sense here? It’s like, well, this was Ally’s idea.
AW (09:57):
This is Ally’s baby. And my, my brother and Cam were, were integral parts. It would never have gotten to what it did without them. But from a relat relatability standpoint, and to sell this to the public, I knew we knew that. Like I needed to be the one out there talking about it. And I didn’t know anything about that. I didn’t know how to do that, you know? But I, you know, we, we recognized that, you know, it was only one person that was gonna really be able to speak to the brand, and it made the most sense for me to do it. So, you know, from the get go, I was doing that, like the first week we opened Drybar, because it was such a new concept. Like, we had TV crews coming in, and I was the one talking to them. And, and I, I mean, I was like, I mean, I, I couldn’t even bear to look back at those interviews because I was so green and I didn’t know how to speak to media yet, and I’ve had media training and, and all that.
AW (10:43):
So it was this kind of slow progression. And I was also really fortunate and, and amazing timing that I was really at the forefront of the entrepreneurial craze that we’re in now. You know, it’s like I, in 2010, like nobody knew people, founders, and CEOs yet. Like, you know, it was like, I remember like looking around going, who else is like me here? Nobody. It was like, maybe, I always think like maybe Donna, Karen, like, there were very few female founders that were known that had started. I mean, the landscape is so incredibly different now, but like, I was at the forefront of that alongside like Candace Nelson and who started Sprinkles and like other, there’s so many female founders now, which is awesome. But, you know, so I, I was at the front of that getting a lot of, you know, talking a lot.
AW (11:31):
And then Drybar became such a big craze, and it was such a love brand, and people fell in love with it that they wanted to talk to me about it, you know? And so it just kind of came, it all really, I mean, we hired PR to build the brand, but I was always the spokesperson. And so I was always the person that people wanted to talk to. And then, and then it kind of, they people became interested in lots of things about me, not just my founder, at not just me being a founder of the company. Like what was I wearing and what trends did I see happening and that kind of stuff. And that was
RV (12:02):
Fun. Well, I wanna talk about that because, you know, there’s this, there is this thing of like, oh, you know, started a company grew, you know, had TV crews there. The first week we grew the company, I was on magazines and then, and then we sold it for 250 million. Like, all of that sounds like a pretty Cinderella story. But then as you became popular and we’re in the public eye, I feel like your life took a little bit of a different direction. So like, what is some of what happened like after Drybar for people who don’t know the story?
AW (12:36):
Well, it’s certainly not a Cinderella story. I mean, and if, and if you know, you know, my book The Messy Truth, like, I, I really talk a lot about how hard it was. And like the first shop, yes, it was very popular and people were showing up left and right. The second shop, crickets, third Shop, crickets. It took so much effort and marketing to get us there. So it wasn’t just like, we opened it, it was amazing. We sold it for 255 million. I was at, you know, on a Shark Tank and on covers of magazines. Like, it did not, it didn’t happen like that. It was a, it was a lot of blood, sweat, and tears without a doubt. And my life fell apart during Drybar. It wasn’t even just after Drybar, you know, it was like my first marriage to my co-founder, you know, fell apart.
AW (13:18):
And my son went through rehab and, and, you know, and Maria, you know, you know a lot about this, and there’s a whole chapter in my book about my son and, and what, and, and the, and the pain that he went through. And, you know, it is as bad as like it can get for a parent. I mean, it was like literal hell. And it was, you know, and the company was like six or seven years in like, still on this like, upward trajectory. But luckily we had built out such a strong foundation and like such an exec, great executive crew, that the company was able to keep going because I was not, you know? And, and so, yeah, I mean, there was so much falling apart in, in the building of Drybar that happened to me personally, you know, that I, you know, gosh, it was, it was so, so hard. It was so, it was definitely not a Cinderella story, for sure.
RV (14:07):
Yeah. So, so then, so, so that, that’s interesting. ’cause I think of it as being after, but it really was, it really was going while, like as you guys were still growing,
AW (14:18):
There was a really, then there my life fell apart again after Yes. But even during it was there was like, I am navigating some really tough waters for
RV (14:27):
Sure. So what, so, so tell us about the Messy Truth. So you mentioned the book, right? So the, the book is the, it, it talks about some of this. So, so why this book? What’s in the book? Like, how does that apply to your entrepreneurial story?
AW (14:40):
Well, it was been an interesting evolution for me. And the fact that I am, I mean, I decided, you know, I was, I decided to call the book The Messy Truth because I wanted, I felt really comp compelled. I think I always thought I’d tell the story of my, the growth and the, the fascination of, of, of how we did Drybar. ’cause People love it so much. But I didn’t, I don’t know that I ever thought I would tell like such a personal, such a, such a personal side of it, you know? And I think that that, that came from when I was in the thick of, of Dry Bar and my life fell apart, and I felt, and social media had, you know, was a really big deal then. And I just felt like I didn’t wanna be inauthentic with, with where I was and, and showing this version of me that was like shiny happy on tv, growing this massive brand and all this greatness in when really in the background I could, you know, get barely get off the floor and I, it it at in a period of time.
AW (15:40):
And so I think I, I couldn’t like lie about that. And so I was, I was, you know, transparent about it to a degree. And what I learned, the feedback that I got, which was so beautiful, was that like, it was really resonating with people because it was like, oh, the polarity of like, she’s got all this success, this company that’s thriving, but holy, her life is falling apart. And so showing that and, and that connection that was formed with so many people that I didn’t even know who were like, oh my gosh. Like, it was like a, it was like a sigh of relief that like, oh, you can both can exist and frankly, both do exist. I mean, I don’t, I don’t think anybody lives a life that’s like perfect and not hard at different times. And so I felt like, I felt like such a, a calling to that, oh, you’ve gotta show all of it.
AW (16:32):
You know, I have a great life. Like, I’m very blessed. I have, I’ve, I’ve had a really great life. I’ve also like, you know, been on the floor and felt like I wanted to die. So I’ve had the extremes of both. But I think that, that, talking about that more the messy truth of it all and, and making that the underbelly of my book, that it’s very much a business book, but I, I always say it’s like a, a business book and a and a, you know, and a memoir had a baby, and this is the book, you know, and it’s because the book does really highlight all of it. And now I just feel like I’ve really taken the messiness to a whole new level. And like, you know, like I was telling you before, starting this messy collective, which is, you know, all the lessons and all the things that I’ve learned, but like, really capitalizing on the, capitalizing is not the right word, but like you know, and you can edit that out, right? ’cause I hate
RV (17:27):
That. Yeah. We can edit, we can edit that if you want.
AW (17:30):
Yeah, edit that out because I don’t wanna say capitalizing, but, but more like, you know, becoming like the poster child for messy. And like, all of my friends say to me, not all of my friends, but some of my friends are like, you gotta tell everybody everything. And I’m like, first of all, I don’t tell everybody everything, but I do feel really compelled to like, share. And I’m still trying to figure out where that all comes from. But now I feel like it is my, it has become my brand to be this like, very like, unfiltered, tell it as it is, you know, person. And I get so much great feedback about that and how much people resonate and love it, and how grateful they are for it. So of course, I wanna keep doing it, you know, and I feel, you know, really, really compelled and like, it’s my calling to be to messy , you know? Mm-Hmm. .
RV (18:19):
So talk to me about how’s your personal brand evolving now? I mean, you, you’re, you have clarity on sort of like, it, it seems like this sort of unfiltered, open, honest is like what it is. But from a business perspective, are you still building companies? Are you investing, are you operating, are you boards on, like on boards? Are you just trying to try to like, own minority stakes and let people run it? Like what, what, what are, what does this next season look like in terms of the evolution of the business side of your personal brand?
AW (18:57):
Yeah, I mean, honestly, like a little bit of everything you just said, you know, it’s like we, we do have, you know, companies like Squeeze and Brightside and Okay, humans and these brands that are kind of, you know, that I’m an investor advisor in, I show up to the board meetings, give my thoughts, help where, where, where it’s needed. That’s like one bucket. And then I am on some boards I have a harder time sitting on long phone calls. So I don’t know if I’ll continue to do that. I, ’cause I was experimenting the last couple years of like, what do, how do I wanna spend my time? I do mentor a lot of different entrepreneurs. Like there there’s a, a site called Intro where you can, you can pay to like, have time with CEOs and founders. It’s amazing. And I do that and I enjoy that.
AW (19:41):
You know, and I am, which I haven’t publicly announced yet, starting another brand in the hair space, which I’m gearing up with my brother to do right now. So yeah, it’s like I can’t really stop. I have so many, I have so many ideas and so many things that I wanna do. And I have like, you know, people talking about optioning my book, and then there’s like a, a show idea in the works. I mean, honestly, I couldn’t even, like, it would take a, it would take me a pretty long, long, long list of like, all the things that I’m working on, but it’s all in this vein of like, let me, like, I’m throwing a lot at the wall and let me see what sticks, which is so funny. Rory, and I don’t know if you you’d wanna cut this or not, but I remember when we were sitting in that room and you were talking about Lewis and how when you met him, he was doing so many things and you, like, you helped him like distill it down. My focus.
RV (20:31):
Yeah,
AW (20:31):
The focus, which, which I think about that conversation a lot because I am in that state of, I’m doing a lot of things right now, but I think I’m doing it purposely and I’m aware of what I’m doing because I wanna see what works, resonates, is, you know, is, is is lucrative, like all the things. And I’m not quite sure. And there’s, there’s a handful of them that I’m working on right now which is, which is fun. And I, I almost feel like I’m, like, in my early twenties again, like, I’m like, I’m gonna do this and I’m gonna do this, and I’m just gonna see what, what feels best to me, what, what seems to be working? And so I’m, I’m at this like really fun stage, but
RV (21:07):
You’re kind of experimenting with different Yeah, yeah. Totally different things. The, the tell me about what, what’s the difference between being on a board and being an advisor? Like I, ’cause I think that does happen that we see this a lot with clients es especially as they get more notoriety and as they become more successful, there’s, you know, brand deals sometimes then become equity deals and like consulting relationships sometimes become equity relationships. In your mind, how do you delineate, you know, what, what’s the different to be a, on an, to be an advisor to a company like advisor, investor, board member? Like, how do you think of those roles differently and how do you choose which companies to play each of those roles with?
AW (21:56):
Yeah, I mean, it’s, it’s all like, it, it can look anyway you want it to. I mean, and, and I’ve tried it a handful of ways, you know, I mean, in, when I first, you know, sold the company and made some money, I was pretty, like, I wanted to join some boards and I did that. And like I said, it, it didn’t seem like exactly the right fit for me. It’s different being a board of my own company. But, you know, and then I also was like investing in a lot of brands. Like, I have a lot of, I have a probably like 20 or so investments in companies that are like my friend’s companies, or just like a company that I really believed in, you know, re regardless of what my financial advisors were, like, this feels like a real risky deal. I’m like, I know, but it’s like one of my best friends and I’m doing it more for like, you know, for them to have, to be able to like, use my name or call me up and get some advice and like, you know, kind of a loose relationship, you know.
AW (22:51):
And then there’s like, and then there’s situations where I’m like an advisor for equity, and I didn’t put any money into the company, you know, so they’re able to leverage my experience, have a conversation with me, and I’m not getting financially compensated, but I do have a little stake of equity in the company, you know, so it can, it can look a lot of different ways and you can negotiate really whatever you want. And, you know, it’s just kind of, it is a negotiation depending on what you want. I have, I’ve been through so many different scenarios at this point that I can kind of, you know, at this point I’m, I’ve decided to not invest mostly in most companies unless it’s something really that really gets me and rather say, Hey, I’m not gonna invest financially in here, but I’m happy to be an advisor to the founder, whatever, for equity. You know? So there’s, there’s lots of different ways you can, you can form it and it, it really can be, it’s just a negotiation.
RV (23:44):
Uhhuh . So when you talk about an advisory, like investor equity is larger percentages typically, right? Advisor equity is typically smaller or, yeah,
AW (23:55):
I mean, it all depends. I mean, all depends. It just depends. Yeah. It just kind of depends on what’s happening with the company. Like what your, you know, what your outlining as is, what you’re going to contribute to, you know, the company, the founder, how much, how much time and energy you’re gonna give them. You know, it’s, it’s really, it can run the gamut.
RV (24:11):
Mm-Hmm, . Yeah. That’s a, that’s fascinating. That’s fascinating stuff. So I think are, you know, going, going back, you know, thinking about how you’ve done as an entrepreneur, right? You’ve done all these different environments, you’ve worked with all of ’em. W what’s the advice you would give to a younger version of yourself who’s just starting out building your first company, going just like, what, what is it, what is it that you wish somebody would’ve told you about the journey of an entrepreneur and like what you need to be prepared for emotionally? And then maybe any, like, here’s the big tips. These are the big things that like, you know, you need to hire a good lawyer, or, you know, just like anything that you wish it was like, man, I, I was pretty naive in this area. Somebody should have told me this.
AW (25:08):
Yeah. I mean, I was , I was naive in most areas, and I de you definitely should hire a good lawyer. Don’t sign anything without a lawyer. There’s one nugget. And this is largely what’s in my book, so many of these lessons, right? But, but I would say, you know, I, I think the overarching thing that I think about, ’cause I do get asked this question a lot, is like, I spent an inordinate amount of time worrying and being stressed, and it didn’t do. Like, it doesn’t help anything. Like, it doesn’t, in, in fact, it like, creates the opposite, you know? It’s like I, I was so nervous and had such like a tight grip on my company and it, it caused me to, you know, show up. Not great a lot, for sure. And and I, and, and honestly we’re, I think a lot of it is like I don’t, I don’t know if you can learn this lesson before you get to the other side or not, because I’m on the other side, you know?
AW (26:10):
And also, like, I’m just a different person. I’ve been through some real life changing things and I have, you know, as you know, I’ve, you know, really come to find faith in my life. And I think that, like, I didn’t have that sense of, it’s all gonna be okay. It’s all gonna work out one way or the other. You know? I really truly believe that now in a very profound way that I didn’t have that back then. You know, back then I was like, I felt like I had to work myself into the ground, you know, I had to work constantly. And there was, it was like some sort, I talk about this a lot. Like, it was like some sort of badge of honor to work, you know, these crazy days, you know, days that you just like, like are working for the moment you open your eyes to the moment you close your eyes.
AW (26:54):
And like, this was like, and that is a little bit of like the entrepreneurial, you know, plate that we have because we, we breathe this and sleep it and drink it, and it’s just like all consuming, which, which it is. But again, if I had it to do over, I would like put it down a little bit more than I did and, and try, because I did get burned out so much. And there was a, you know, there was a lot of my life that I wasn’t paying attention to my health and to my wellbeing and, you know, things that were, were really important because I thought if I took my, you know, my hands off the wheel for a second, that the whole thing was gonna implode, which it wasn’t, and it didn’t, you know, and, and, and being, you know, like I was saying before with my son, and like the divorce, like that was probably around, I don’t know, year six, seven, something like that.
AW (27:40):
You know, it’s like I, I, I literally, somebody was saying this to me, I heard somebody talking about this not that long ago, that like, you set your company company up in a way that if, like, god forbid something happens to you, that the company will still exist and be okay for many, many years. I don’t think that was the case with Drybar. You know, it was like, I was firmly at the helm of that company, which is great. But like, you know, because we brought in a professional CEO at like two or three years, and then we built up this great team when I did have to dip out and deal with a lot of personal stuff, like nothing, nothing happened in the business was fine, you know? And that I think is a really important thing to point out, you know? And so it just also points to the fact that like, I could have done that sooner and enjoyed my life more than I did in that time when I was so worried and stressed all the time. Mean I, you know, and it’s like, like, you know, life’s too short for that. And I, and I, I, I would do that differently and I just, that’s how I kind of approach things now. I like, you know, and I have to remind myself of that, like, it’s a self-awareness thing, which by the way, self-awareness is probably the greatest gift of all of this, is like having much more self-awareness now than I’ve ever had in my life.
RV (28:53):
Mm-Hmm. , you mentioned your spiritual journey. What’s been your favorite, what’s your favorite TV show these days?
AW (28:58):
, the show that,
RV (28:59):
Tell us, tell us. Put it on the air.
AW (29:02):
I can’t, I mean, I’ve Yeah. I’ve had this really, like, you know, it feels kind of like an epiphany to me of, of you know, my, my my older son Grant is studying theology in college, and it’s, he’s kind of been, you know, the, the, the gateway to me in, in learning more about God and Jesus and religion. And then I, we started watching the chosen and I was like, man, Jesus is kind of a badass, you know? And I , I, I just feel like it’s just shifted everything for me. And I have such a, like a really profound, you know, belief in, in faith now that I am 49 years old that has not been there all of my life. And it’s, it’s really changing so much for me. And it’s, it’s really beautiful. I, you know, I feel so, like so it’s hard to explain, you know, this whole like, transition that’s happening for me right now, which I’m grateful to my son for bringing it out of me.
RV (29:59):
Mm-Hmm. it. Yep. The chosen is the gateway drug for Jesus, my friend , that’s how they get you. That’s how they get you. They get you, they’re like, Hey, check out this show. And then before you know it funny, you’re in, you’re in church going hallelujah, hallelujah, .
AW (30:17):
I, I really am. And, and like I was telling you, you know, I ask all like the people in my life who are, you know, who, who would know, I’m like, who’ve like, read the Bible and know, I’m like, I don’t wanna watch this unless it’s like legit, you know? And, and I’ve been given the light green light that it’s, yeah, it’s, it’s pretty accurate. So it’s such a better, you know, and it’s really interesting. It’s like, it’s such a easier way for me to ingest it. And from a storytelling standpoint, you know, my, my best friend Paige and I talk about it now. I mean, it’s like, it’s all I talk about now. And we, you know, and, and a lot of people have said to me, even, even like Mariah Irwin’s daughter has Erwin McManus, which, you know, we all know and love, you know, she’s like, it, it, you probably want to, you know, interpret it in your own way too. Like, watching it from a movie standpoint through somebody else’s lens is, has been really great. But like it, I do, I do have a little bit of like, oh, I should probably ingest it my own way. And, you know, because there just seems to be so many interpretations of it all that I am curious, like what my interpretation would be. So yeah. Yeah. I’m in this conversation a lot with myself, .
RV (31:25):
That’s really, that’s really, really cool. Well, you know, you seem really happy. You can, you can sense, you can sense the sense of peace that you have, which is like, it’s just amazing how that comes from faith and not from a dollar figure, or being on a cover of a magazine or having celebrity friends or being invited to the red carpet. Like, it’s, it’s like
AW (31:50):
That’s wild. I mean, I, it’s interesting that you bring that up because it is true. I mean, I’ve had all of that, all those things that you mentioned, and, you know, it was never really fulfilled by it, you know, and, and it’s, it’s fascinating how, how profoundly different, and I feel now you’re right. You know, with this like this, those are not, those are, you know, those are just not real things. It’s really, and I, and they’re cool, and I, I mean, I like ’em, but it’s not, it’s not the thing,
RV (32:21):
Not the thing. So I love it. So we’ll link up to the messy truth is that so people can, can check out the book if they wanna learn more about it. Anywhere else you would point people to if they wanna connect with you.
AW (32:32):
Yeah, I mean, you know, the, the Messy Collective, which is the online community that I’ve just launched which you can get to by just going to ally webb.com or my Instagram, which is just Ally Webb and, you know, this community that I’m trying to create and foster for female entrepreneurs who are in the throes of building their companies and want some advice and community. And I feel really excited and good about it. So I’m, I’m excited to, you know, keep fostering that, that world.
RV (32:59):
That’s really cool, friend. Well, thanks for being so open about everything going on. And it’s, it’s your life is a movie. It’s going to be, it’s gonna be a movie. Your life is Your life is a movie. So I’m waiting for the, I’m waiting for the movie, movie premiered. Oh. I’ll
AW (33:14):
Be calling you to, to help me promote it. Don’t worry.
RV (33:18):
Yeah. So, all right, well, we’re, we’re cheering for you and we wish you the best. Ally Webb,
AW (33:23):
Thank you so much. Awesome.