Ep 371: 5 Things You Need to Know to Hit A Bestseller List | Esther Fedorkevich Episode Recap
AJV (00:02):
Have you ever wondered what makes a New York Times bestselling book? A bestselling book,
AJV (00:58):
And so I thought I would share some of those tidbits with you because they were really important to me with the disclaimer. At the end of the day for anyone who is a writer, an author, a content creator, a thought leader, it’s like, I just think this should go without saying that. I do believe solely wholehearted wholeheartedly that knowing the amount of work that it takes to write a book and then edit it, and then rewrite it and then edit again, and then rewrite it again, like that’s no small feat. So I know that at the heart, most authors, most people who have a message on their hearts are not doing this just to hit the list, right? Because the real benefit is a life changed, a life transformed, sometimes a life saved because books have the power to do that. Words have the power to do that.
AJV (01:45):
And at the same time, we know that when you do hit a list, it creates a credibility factor, a shareability factor, a just a, a component to it that helps you share it more, get it into the hands of more people, thus impact change, transform save more lives. So I don’t want this to just be about, oh, like the only reason you write a book is if it’s only good if it hits the list. That’s clearly not the case, cuz lots of not so good books hit the list.
AJV (02:59):
AJV (03:44):
Number two is you gotta have a platform. You’ve got to have people that are already coming alongside with you on this journey. And that’s a really important part of this because although not every author is in the business of hitting the bestseller book or selling millions of books, publishers are
AJV (04:37):
If you don’t want to hit a list and make this some sort of big part of your business, then self-publishing is an amazing route. And self-publishing today is extraordinarily amazing. Like, truly like it’s not the self-publishing that it was 12 years ago. Like you can’t even tell some of these self-publishing houses. You couldn’t even tell that this was done self-published. They’re really great. And so you’ve gotta think about the intent of that, of knowing that if you’re going after a traditional publisher, the intent is that you’re gonna hit the list and you’re gonna sell lots of copies. And in order to do that, you need a platform, right? You, you gotta have a platform of, of fans, followers customers that already know who you are and subscribe to the content that you’re teaching. Then I love this and I loved what Esther said, and she was like, you actually have to have a unique idea, right?
AJV (05:27):
Having great content is one thing, but it needs to be unique. It needs to be a creative idea or concept. What we would say is it’s got to forward thought leadership. It doesn’t have to be a brand new idea, but it’s got to be presented in a brand new way. So those are the three things fundamentally that are kind of like at the base, the foundation of if you’re going after a bestseller list to get this in the hands of lots of, or get this book in the hands of lots of people, those are like the prerequisites. Then there was a few other things that I thought was really important, and she was like, you just, the bestseller list, just hitting the bestseller list on Amazon alone is its own algorithm and its own beast of just knowing what category listings, not listing listings to be in.
AJV (06:15):
And I’m gonna tell you, go listen to my podcast interview with Esther. This is just like one of the most insightful interviews. So just go listen to it in terms of if you’re in that world of writing and publishing a book right now and your launch season or pre-launch season go listen to the interview with Esther. But this whole concept of Amazon listings, it’s like, think about it like this way, when you go look for a book in a retail bookstore yes, there are a few of those left
AJV (07:07):
And I think it’s like, it’s like that but different when it comes to Amazon because you’re just typing in book names or categories. You’re not saying, Hey, I want to research kids books about turtles. Most likely you’re saying, Hey, I want to go kids books for five to seven year olds, boys, right? And it’s like, the thing is though, the category listings are really important and Esther told us awesome story about one of her clients who is a 17 year old who wrote a kid’s book about turtles and it hit number one on the Amazon bestseller list under the category of turtles. Turtles, right? It’s a kiss moment, it hit it under turtles. So it’s like being strategic with the marketing intent is a really important part of, you can’t just have a great book and assume you can just throw it on Amazon or anywhere.
AJV (07:55):
It’s like no, that there needs to be some strategy and marketing intent in order to get it to some of those credibility components like a bestseller’s list that’s then going to help it spread and help the message populate throughout, you know, your intended audience. So category listings actually do make a difference. I think that was really unique and very insightful. The other thing that I thought was really interesting is she shared with me that audiobooks audio sales are up 347%. Now, book sales are also up, but audiobook sales are up 347%. And what she said is that most people even though they listen to it on audio, they will also buy a physical copy because after they listen to it, they wanna go back and have something to underline or highlight or go back over. And so many people are doing both.
AJV (08:49):
But audio that’s huge. And then she goes, I make my author. So Esther is an agent, right? She is the owner and founder of the Fed Agency, but she goes, I say, if you’re gonna write a book, you must do an audio book. It’s a prerequisite, right? You’re doing it. And I would say I would throw that in there as the unsolicited feedback from a consumer books. If you’re gonna do an audio book, make sure you read it. You need to read your own book. Don’t hire someone else to read your book. You read your book. It makes it so much better for the consumer to listen to if you’re listening to the actual author. So just a couple of quick things about audio and the importance of not just having your book and words on pages, but having the audio version will actually help your book sales, audio sales help book sales.
AJV (09:35):
So make sure you have it on audio. Then we talked about a couple of other things that I thought were just really important. And some of them are just high level and, but worthwhile, worthwhile is that if you’re gonna launch a book you need to treat it like you’re launching a business because that’s what it is. And you need to be prepared to put in the time, resources, money as if you were launching a business. And because that’s what it takes. It’s gonna take a lot of sweat equity, a lot of actual equity, bro, dollars and cents like things cost money to prize. But a lot of time, and I thought this was really again, an important thing to remember. It’s like people talk about launch season. If you’re an author or an aspiring author, you know what I’m talking about.
AJV (10:20):
There’s a launch season. But nobody really explains like how long is a launch season. And what Esther said is she was like, A launch season is about a year, a year, not six weeks not three months, not six months, 12 months, let’s say year. And she goes, most of my authors begin their pre-sales and their kind of pre-launch season, six months before the pub date of their book, six months. And now that’s after they already have a plan in place. So think about how much
AJV (11:53):
Organically, or at least 10 years. Now that doesn’t mean you won’t write other books and talk about other things, but you gotta love it so much that for the next 10 years I would dedicate every conversation to this or for my life. Like, I could be talking about this until the day that, you know, I go to heaven, I God brings me home. It’s like I could talk about it forever. That is what needs to be in your book, is the things that people are like, man, like you always talk about that. You should write a book about that. And so just think about that. It’s like, this is not, I’m gonna write it and then for a couple of weeks we’re gonna market it and then it’s gonna spread. And no, it’s the, it’s not build it and they will come. It is you build it and then you go talk about it and talk about it some more and talk about some more and then some more and then a little bit more.
AJV (12:37):
And so it’s just treating it like a business that it’s like, it’s not something you write and it just sits on a shelf. It’s just like a business. It takes a continual process over the course of time before, during, and after to really make it successful. And then the last thing that I would just say I would just share is there is not one sales aha. In order to sell a lot of books, there’s a lot of sales aha movements and a lot of sales strategies. And there’s not one thing that’s a lot of things happening simultaneously that work today and that’s new and that’s different and that can’t feel overwhelming, which is why you need a good strategy and you need a plan that you can do over six months. So some of those things are making sure you’ve got a good social media plan.
AJV (13:22):
And some of the things that Esther and I talked about on our conversation I thought was so good is do fun things that create engagement. Like do a do a book cover reveal with your social media followings. Do a challenge from content in the book. Do different fun things like do a book launch party do giveaways, but create engagement with your social media months and months before it releases. You know, give tiny little sample excerpts outs, share stories, but create engagement all around the content that’s happening in the book. Other things were make sure you do a podcast tour, right? Make sure that it’s like you’re hitting every single media outlet in media venue. You can speaking, right? Speak for free, speak for money, go on podcasts. If you can get big media outlets to interview you, that’s great too.
AJV (14:12):
But it’s making sure that you’re just exhausting all of your resources. It’s not just sending an email to your list or just focusing on your followers. It’s how do I access anyone who I think could benefit from the message that are on the pages of this book? And that takes time and it takes a plan. And it’s not one thing. It’s lots of things happening simultaneously, which means you gotta have a sales and marketing plan. And I think that’s like the big overarching takeaway is that launching a book is like launching a business. And as the author, a huge part of your role is the salesperson. You, like, you are the sales team of the book. And if you are not a great salesperson, then you’ve got got to surround yourself with great salespeople who can go out and market and sell the book on your behalf.
AJV (14:57):
But again, like this is a really important thing just to walk away with, is we say this all the time that Brand Builders Group is, there is no such thing as a New York Times best writing author. There’s only New York Times best selling author. Highlight, bold, underline, whatever you need to do, which means that’s who is selling it, right? That’s who is selling the most. That’s who’s buying the most of that book. There’s not a lot of the best writing. That’s the, you know, that’s just what’s required. That’s the prerequisite, is it’s great writing, it’s great content that should be right. But then there’s gotta be the sales and marketing plan to get it in the hands of the people that you can help. So I hope this helps. You’re so insightful for me. Great reminders, new stuff. So hope this was helpful. Go check out the full conversation on our podcast, the influential Personal brand. I’ll catch you later.
Ep 370: What Makes A New York Times Bestselling Book with Esther Fedorkevich
AJV (00:02):
Hey everybody and welcome to another episode on the influential Personal Brands. AJ Vaden here, one of your co-hosts. And I’m very, very excited to have a special guest and a new friend on the show today. But she’s new to me. She’s not new to Brain Builders Group or to my husband Roy Vaden, because Esther works with tons of our clients, lots of our friends, and also some of our team members. And I was just sharing this with her before, if we didn’t already have such a tight relationship with our literary agent, Nina, like there is no one else on the planet that we would even consider to desire to work with other than Esther. So before I give her a formal introduction, I just wanna tell you guys why you need to stick around for this show because as you saw the title of the show, it’s How to Write a New York Times bestselling book.
AJV (00:48):
And here are the reasons that you wanna stick around to the end. Number one, you can’t write a New York Times bestselling book surprise. So you probably need to stick on, figure out then, well, how on God’s green Earth do you get one if it’s not writing one? So that’s the first thing. Second thing is that this is an episode for you who are in the author space. It doesn’t not matter if you dream of being one, you’re an aspiring one, you’re a first time one, or you’re an established author. This is an episode of if you have a book that you want to get into the hands of other humans you need to listen to, because that’s what we’re gonna talk about. And then the third are just what are some of the ins and outs of actually making it work in the publishing industry today?
AJV (01:32):
Because it’s changing. It’s been changing, it will continue to change. So as someone who’s in that creative space and you wanna get your thoughts on paper and that paper into the hands of many, what do you need to know of how to get a book published and out into the world today? So that’s why you wanna listen and lemme tell you mainly why you want to listen. So I’m gonna tell you a little bit about Esther formally. So Esther is the owner of the Fed Agency. Esther oh my gosh, see better Kevin? Yep. I’ve been saying for Dork for Forever Better Kevi, I’m gonna like say this in my sleep now, but she’s the owner of the Fed Agency. She started her career in a lot of different ways, but some very I think important things to know is like you were part of the Dave Ramsey organization and really helped grow that to what it is. I think that, I think I read somewhere that you have helped more than 80 books become on the New York Times bestseller list a hundred.
EF (02:28):
We’re over a hundred now. We just hit 102.
AJV (02:31):
Woo. I mean, if that doesn’t inspire you to listen to the rest of this episode, then you can just go ahead and like hop off right now. But it’s like if you’ve helped more than a hundred people hit the New York Times list, this is just extraordinary. But one of the things that I loved most about your bio that you sent over is that you’re not just in the business of helping people get their books published. This is about changing lives helping dreams come true and really being a conduit of really good messages for people all around the world. And I love that you’re also a mom. You’ve got two kids. You live in Austin, Texas, and I could go on and on and on, but Esther, welcome to the
EF (03:07):
Show. Thanks AJ for having me.
AJV (03:10):
Oh my gosh, I’m so excited. I have like, genuinely been looking forward to this conversation. Four weeks ever since we got this scheduled because I, I wanna just be I wanna be like one of your customers today because I think there’s so much changing in this space and in the industry of what I’m gonna call thought leadership or the knowledge economy. That’s, I just, I think that we’re, if you’re not constantly having these conversations, you’re already behind. And so as we kinda like step into this and what does it look like today, I wanna know two things to help our audience get to know you is one, you could have done so many different things. Like you have sold millions and millions and millions of dollars through book publishing. You have worked with some of the largest names, household names out there. You could be doing anything you want. Why did you pick this space? So that’s my first question.
EF (04:04):
Okay. So I didn’t pick it, it kind of fell in my lap when I started working for Dave Ramsey. We were self-publishing and then publishing with publishers about 50 different products a year. And they were all financial products. So I was trying to think of like a new way to say the same thing with a new marketing. It’s all marketing guys, right? So new marketing idea, new way. And it was get, I’m like, I wanna do more than just finance books. And so I worked for Dave till the day I gave birth to my first daughter. I was 25 years old and I said, I’m gonna start my own literary agency and I think I could do this. I was good at sales. And I’m like, I love story. So what, it really fell in my lap. Cause I love story. I’m really a branding and marketing person.
EF (04:43):
A lot of literary agents come in this space because they’re literary, they’re writers. I came in this space as an entrepreneur and businesswoman, but coming in from the say I love story and I love helping people know how to market that story. Cuz there’s one thing about writing a great book and then there’s the other thing about getting it out there and selling it. So both things matter, but it kind of fell in my lap. And then I’m really good with people. I was a big Zig Zeigler fan growing up. I mean, I think I’ve listened to every Zig zeigler, you know, audio cassette back in the day. And like, I also just love people. So Dave Ramsey had us read a book. He made all of his employees read a book, how To Win Friends and Influence People. And then I did this Dale Carnegie course and I’m like, I’m really good with people. I love story and I can sell. So I kind of said, wow, that makes a good literary agent, someone who can sell Ari. Because most writers aren’t salespeople naturally. Yeah. Most writers are, you know, they have the ideas, they’re right, they’re, they don’t like bragging about themselves. So it’s perfect for someone like me coming in and helping get their message out.
AJV (05:42):
Matt, I love that. And you put in your bio statement that that’s your also your favorite book. Why is that your favorite book?
EF (05:48):
I think because it’s still relevant today. When he wrote that, think about it, it was no social media. There was no, I mean, I told my employees all the time, did you talk to them? Did you actually actually pick up the phone and talk to them? Right? Did you, so I love relationships, I love building relationships. And my whole business has been built on relationships, real genuine relationships. And I think a lot of times this younger generation comes in and they have, you know, a hundred thousand friends on Instagram or Facebook, but they couldn’t, they have never picked up the phone and talked to them. Mm-Hmm.
AJV (06:26):
Oh, it’s one of my favorite books too. It was mandatory reading early in my sales career. And you said something that I think is gonna set the precedent for the rest of our conversation, which is, you’re, you’re in the literary field, but at the end of the day, you’re branding and marketing aka sales. And I think one of the things that we run into all the time with our podcast listeners to, with, with our Brain Builders Group community and just with everyday conversations is people somehow have forgotten that relationships are still the fundamental way that we do business today. And they think that you get enough followers, you get enough this and this is gonna figure itself out. And, you know, we are lucky to be behind the scenes of a lot of launches. And I’ll tell you what, lots of emails do not convert into lots of books all the time. And lots of followers do not convert into lots of sales most of the time. And so hence why I think this conversation, I’m
EF (07:23):
Glad you figured that out. Cause if there, if that was true, right? We’d all have the magic formula and no, just to sign someone if they had 10 million followers that they were gonna sell 10 million books. But that’s not the case.
AJV (07:34):
That is not the case. And so here is why we’re here today. Like what is it? Like, what do we need to be doing? So here’s my first here’s my first question which is kind of like, you know, part two of a little bit about your backstory is what, what do you think makes someone not a great writer, but a great candidate to hit a list? Because I think that’s like ultimately what so many people want is like, how do I hit that Personally, I don’t really care, but I know that it’s a big goal of most. And so I’m curious, what do you think it is not about the writing, but what makes someone a good candidate to have the list eligibility?
EF (08:16):
Well, I say like, as an agent, I look for three things, right? And you have to have two of these three things to be successful. And I think to have a chance to be a New York Times bestseller, and this is for me acquiring an author to go sell, right? But then I still think it’s relevant as when they go to brand builders and you’re helping ’em, or they’re doing it on their own. It, you have to have a great book. It still has to be a good book guys to sell. Like you can’t just write crap, right? And then think it’s gonna sell because you have 50 million followers, right? That’s, I mean, I can prove you over and over again people that have 50 million plus followers that haven’t sold a hundred thousand books.
AJV (08:53):
I, I agree.
EF (08:54):
So step one, have good content. Step one, the content’s gotta be good. And if you have the ideas and thoughts, work with a great writer or, or collaborator that can help you put those, read them in a way that you’re making the reader, you’re empowering ’em to change, you’re encouraging, you’re inspiring, you’re, you know, making ’em cry. You’re making ’em laugh, whatever the goal is of that book. But they really wanna, at the end, when they close it, they wanna get up and go their, their life has changed somehow. Mm-Hmm.
EF (09:39):
When I started, I started in 2003, the only social media around was MySpace. So there was no Facebook, there was no Instagram, there was, there was no TikTok there. So think like I like started as a young agent, right? When social media was coming out and how the older authors were thinking that we’re selling, you’d actually go into retail and find their book. So I, a quote of mine is, with the death of retail is the death of discoverability. So there’s no retail anymore. So gotta get that outta your mind. And everything is our phone. I don’t have mine here or like the computer. It’s how people are getting to you to buy that book. So platform is huge. And when I can find, even if someone doesn’t have the biggest platforms, but they have a cultish engaged platform mm-hmm.
EF (10:27):
If you, and you can look at that by like, what’s their engagement level, what’s their likes? How many people are actually commenting? That’s super important. That means they have a tribe that’s pretty, you know, dialed into them. And then the third thing, so you got, it has to be a good book, right? A good content. It’s gotta be platform. And the third one is gotta be a creative idea. It’s gotta be a good idea. That’s why when you see some of these books that they have a saying on it, like, make Your Bed Right? Or the four Hour We Work Week, I put them the four hour work week just cause I’m like, Ooh, that sounds amazing. Four hours a week, that’s all I would have to work. Right? And it’s not even about that. So it’s like having a really cool concept where idea or thought process that like actually makes your book different is really big.
EF (11:10):
The har like when someone has a great story, so many people have great stories. It’s finding that secret thing in your story and expanding off of that. Mm-Hmm.
AJV (11:59):
No, I love that. It’s not that you should write a book, it’s you should write that book that you need to write a book about that. So like, for any of you listening, it’s just, I would just sit there and ask yourself like, what do people actually come to you for? Right? And it’s like, that’s something we talk about all a lot, a lot even in like our own like family and our own personal brands at Brand Builders Group is like, what do people come to you for? Like, what’s that superpower thing? It’s not that you have a great story, it’s the stories, the launching pad. It’s what is something that you do so well, so uniquely different that you could write a whole book about it. Yeah.
EF (12:31):
And so like a lot of times like for a pastor by, like, I work with a lot of pastors of huge megachurches, right? And let’s say they wanna write on something and that’s the sermon that got the worst downloads, right? But that’s what they really care about. And I’ll look at them and say, what’s the message that everyone comes back? They remember 10 years? Like, what’s your core message? And guess what that core message is? Their biggest selling book. Like if you look at Warren with the Purpose Driven Life or Joel o with Your Best Life Now, or like, I could go on and on. All of those were those pastor’s core message that people remembered and kept coming back to them. So it’s not the other, the new message because why haven’t any of their other books sold with that book is sold. So it’s, it’s, I think it’s really kind of identifying what that secret thing is, why people love you and are coming to you, what content is that that they’re going
AJV (13:21):
For? Yeah, I love that. Cuz so many people do. It’s like, and there’s this, I’m not saying this is right and or wrong, you can say that, but I won’t. But it’s like so many people want to tell their story, right? And it’s like, that’s for a keynote, that’s for a blog, that’s for social media and that’s a piece of the book, but it’s not the book.
EF (13:36):
Yep. You got it. You’re exactly. So a lot of times people are like, oh, I wanna tell my story. Well, memoirs don’t sell that well, right? You have to have the secret in the memoir, right? Mm-Hmm.
AJV (14:31):
Yeah. I love that so much. And I love this whole thing. It’s, you know, it’s one, one, I kind of wrote this down, it’s like whenever you’re saying it’s like clearly you have to have good content, but it’s like, make it sticky, make it memorable. Make it shareable, right? It’s like, it’s not like, oh, that was a good book and then you forget that you ever read it. Which I’ve done lots of those two platform, it matters. And I love what you said, it’s like death of retail is death of discoverability. So you’ve got to have a platform and what is it, right? And how many people are you reaching? I love that. Number three this is just what I wrote down is it’s about the creative idea, but it’s, it’s about developing true thought leadership. Right? You know, people always say there’s, you can’t say anything that hasn’t been said that may be true, but you can say it in a new way.
AJV (15:14):
You can say it in new context. And with that slight twist, so what is your version of forwarding this thought, this idea this thing. And I, I love that so much because I feel like people really struggle with how do I take these ideas from my head, get ’em on paper, but then translate them in a way where it’s not about me, it’s about the reader, it’s about the end audience, but then getting it from there to actually having someone buy it, right? Yes. So let’s assume we have great content. It’s sticky, it’s memorable, shareable. We have a good platform, we got a great idea, a unique, awesome idea. Where do we go from there?
EF (15:58):
Okay, so let me first say, if there was a magic formula, we would all be worth a billion dollars. Okay.
EF (16:43):
But I’ve had the perfect lineup of all the major shows and it wasn’t a bestseller, which it’s just like, oh, you get so upset, you’re like, what? That’s, and then that book you see 12 months later hit the New York Times. So sometimes you don’t know. It’s not like you, you, you have to do all the right things, right? And one of the things is what worked, and you, I know h i u would agree with this and Rory would agree with this. What worked two years ago doesn’t work today. It keeps changing because people are buying differently. Yeah. And they’re using different, like it was the day of the email blast was everything, right? And then it was the day of Facebook like it all, I believe you have to, you have to do all of the things and consistently. So I kind of think it, it’s like marketing you.
EF (17:28):
You can’t just talk about your book on book launch week and then not talk about it anymore. It’s, you can’t just be onto the next thing. You really gotta give a book time and make that your core message for the whole year and let people hear it, let people talk about it. That’s why if it’s a good book and it’s changing people’s lives, guess who what you’re gonna do is you’re gonna tell your friend when someone gives you a book and it’s not that great of a book. You’re not talking about it it to others. Yeah. So it’s about, I think, I think authors give up too quick. And I see this all the time. It’s like the ones that are persistent, that keep going, that keep working it, that keep investing because you have to look at an author. It’s like when you write a book, it’s a business.
EF (18:04):
Let’s get real. It’s not a hobby. If you wanna be successful, you’re starting a new business and that book is your new business. And a book can turn into more speaking dates. A book can turn into, you know, like you are opening into new audiences that you never were before. It could get you on podcasts, it could get you on media. I mean, a book, a book opens lots of doors. But, and it also makes you that expert in that topic. When you put a book out, what does everyone think? Oh my gosh, that you’re an expert. You, you must be, cuz you have a whole book, a book’s a lot of work. It’s not like, oh, you say I wanna write a book, and then you think it’s gonna be a couple hours a week of your time. Yeah. But I think authors spends so much time writing the book and then it comes to marketing and they don’t put the same amount of time into the marketing.
EF (18:45):
And they think an agent, I always say an agent is not a magician. I I’m not this, I can’t wave my magic wand and make all my books that I do hit the New York Times bestseller list. Right? It’s hard work. And so when you go in, if you can go into with that like, perspective of publishing and your book is, this is a business, I’m gonna grow my business. If you had any other business, you’re not gonna sit open up a retail store and never go work it and never go check, check out your competition and ev I mean, you’re consistently working it. And so I think authors gotta be looking at, you know, when they write a book, it’s part of their bus, it’s a business and it, or it’s part of their business and they’re gonna spend some time growing it.
AJV (19:23):
Yeah. I love that. I think that’s such a great reminder of if you, if you just wanna talk about your book, just so it hits the list, don’t even bother writing it. But it’s like, you gotta be able to willing to talk about this book all day long, every single day for years and years and years. And if you don’t wanna talk about it for a lifetime, don’t write it.
EF (19:41):
And AJ that’s why when it’s your life message, you’re always talking about it. So though, that’s why the, there’s always a book for every author that’s the one that sells the most. It’s because they’re, they love talking about it. So I, identifying that makes it big.
AJV (19:56):
Yeah. I think for, again, for everyone listening, it’s just, if you don’t want to talk about whatever is going on the pages of your book for a lifetime, then start over. Like start over. Because if you want people to buy it, you’re gonna have to talk about it incessantly to the point where you’re sick and tired of hearing your own voice and then you do it some more. Right? And I think that is a thing for all of us, is we move on too quickly.
EF (20:19):
What drives me crazy is when an author is on a, like they have a big break, they’re on a big show, right? Let’s say they’re on Joe Rogan and they never talk about their book. And I’m like, you’re on the big, like one of the biggest podcasts and you know, you’re talking about your book, but you never mentioned that you have a book. So like really working with authors too, and I know you guys do this like on a regular basis, but in my book, you know, here’s the title. This is what I talk about in my book. Like it’s really also training the authors. You want people, people to buy your book, right? So you’ve gotta talk about your book.
AJV (20:50):
Yeah. So that kinda leads me to the second thing that I wanna talk about, which is this concept of, to be a great author, in my opinion, to be a bestselling author anyways, you have to be a great salesperson. And we, we have this saying that brain builders group that, you know, editors edit, publishers publish, but Hoover, him sells, right? And it’s like the author does, the author needs to sell. So I’d love to hear your take on how do you get people to buy your book, right? Because at some point you get big advances for authors all the time, but that big advances don’t mean anyone’s buying it. It’s like at some point you gotta, you gotta put some hustle and grind into this and say, what am I gonna do to move some books? So what moves books? Like what do you see as actually moving books today?
EF (21:40):
A bunch of things, right? All together at the same time because people look and once you see things, you know, like on your, on your feed, when you get the same thing coming up then what do you do? Oh, I gotta buy that. Right? You can’t just do it one time. You gotta keep talking. Like, if I keep seeing something over and over on Instagram, guess what? I’m gonna finally click it and buy it. So it’s consistently talking. Get on line up your podcast, do 50 podcasts, right? Do like, make sure you’re always talking about it. But okay, so when you were, when you were talking about authors have to sell their book, if you’re an author, I’m just, that is not a good salesperson that can’t sell. You better have a freaking amazing team around you that can sell for you. So if your natural skill, like I’m probably, I would say the best salesperson probably I’ve ever met.
EF (22:24):
Like honestly that’s my one gift. I didn’t think that sales actually mattered. Like, but I’m like, oh, I’m really good at selling, so let me, but I can’t sell all my authors books for them. They have to. So if I can train them a little bit how to be at least a little better than what they are at sales. And if they, if they lack that, like the truly like the writers, the introverts that can’t sell, get people around you that can help you sell mm-hmm.
EF (23:06):
Right? So I think, and I mean you guys do this right? I think it’s putting enough time in your presales up. You have to, you can’t just start promoting your book a week before your book releases. The, it’s getting longer and longer. Six months before start talking, do a cover reveal, have your audience like build up this anticipation that your book’s coming out and why they need your book. So I think it’s the building up. You can’t just start a it, I mean you can’t just start week of release. You got, I mean the best selling books, I mean we’ve have planned six months, nine months ahead of time that we’re building towards that release. Hmm. Creating multiple products. Like I love it when we have a trade book and a devotional or e-course or a bible study or a gift book like, or a children’s book like actually building where there’s other products feeding into people wanting to buy the trade book.
EF (23:58):
So everything test leads back to the trade book. So if you have a children’s book that has a some little message that kind of gears you to the trade book, it makes you wanna read the trade book. So a trade book is your, your your main book. You know, it’s, it’s the, it’s the non-fiction self-help book. And then you can have all these little products that kind of leads you or are magnets to lead you to the trade book. So offering free content, doing some kind of challenge before getting people for free to get invested in something that they’re like, wow, this is so great that they have to buy the trade book speaking, setting up a speaking tour around your book. That’s huge. Cuz speaking, you’re, you’re getting a hundred people or a thousand or 10,000 people at one time, all motivated talking, putting it on social media, buying it on Amazon. So that’s why I say like, it’s multiple things going at the same time. Is all of our bestsellers have had that.
AJV (24:51):
Yeah, I think that’s
EF (24:52):
Had a plan. You can’t just go into publishing your book without a marketing plan. And so many authors go into books without a marketing plan. And the biggest, biggest mistake authors make is they think the publisher’s gonna do it for them Guys, I’m telling you, I’ve been doing this for 20 years. The publisher is not gonna do it for you. It’s all on. You have to go in, even if you’re with the biggest publisher in the world and you ha and you got a 5 million advance and every, yeah, they’re gonna put some more money into you. That’s really what they’re gonna do. But you still have to be involved and you have to work your butt off. Like it’s just how it is. You’re never gonna get a best seller if you’re sitting back and just thinking the publisher’s gonna do it for you.
AJV (25:34):
No, I, I think this is really, really important. Going back to what you said earlier about launching a book, writing a book is like starting a business. So it needs to be treated like one or at least a part of the business because like to that it’s like how many of us would’ve actually lodged a business without some sort of plan or some sort of budget with the money and the funds that we had? And it’s like, most would not do that most, right? It’s no different with your book. It’s no different. And
EF (26:02):
If you go,
AJV (26:03):
You gotta have a plan.
EF (26:04):
If you go the business mentality into it, you’re thinking, okay, like if I was gonna start a business and I’m like, okay, it’s gonna cost me $80,000 to invest and start this business and I’m gonna be working 80 hours a week, and I that’s your book. You should be thinking with that mentality going into your book, that is a business and you’re investing in something, however it’s gonna return. You know what your revenue returns gonna be on it, great. But it’s how much work you put into it. You cannot go into a book think you don’t have to invest any money, you don’t have to invest any time. You know, it’s not gonna be a bestseller then you’re just writing a legacy book. Like a lot of, like my rich billionaire clients do they just write a book so that their family can have it. They don’t care about sales, they don’t care about, they don’t wanna talk about it. It’s just for their, their kids, grandkids, great grandkids to know about how they started their business.
AJV (26:47):
All right. So that leads me to a question that I have for you. Something you said made me think about this. So what about for the authors who want an agent wanna go the traditionally published route and they don’t really care if they ever hit a list, they want a big advance and then they just want sales to happen organically.
EF (27:04):
That’s tricky cuz most, most big one, big celebrity clients, they wanna hit a bestseller list, right? The issue I see a lot AJ, is when an author comes in, they don’t have a platform, they have a really good idea, they’re a good writer, they don’t have a big platform. And I don’t work with the smaller publishers really because the smaller publishers don’t pay advances. You’re giving up too much, you’re not controlling your rights. So we have a program here at the Fed Agency where we, we pick a select few, right? But that we publish it for them where we’re helping them grow their platform so that when they’re at the point that they’re ready for a big New York publisher, we’re able to go sell ’em and they’re of value to them. But the days of the big advances, you have to have a big platform if you’re thinking you’re good or it’s gotta be a national media story where then everybody knows the story, everybody wants to do the book and there’s a bidding war on it. And I think, I think the mistake authors make is they don’t treat a book like a business. And that’s really comes down to, so an author comes in here and they don’t care about the bestseller list, but they want a big advance, then we’ll probably get them a big advance if we can. And then the publisher’s disappointed, everyone’s disappointed, and then they’re not really doing another book anymore.
AJV (28:16):
Hmm. So that’s around
EF (28:18):
Building a publishing enterprise. Like we want authors coming in and we do have the books that the authors that they’re only gonna do one book in their career and that’s it. But most of our authors are looking at building a publishing enterprise. They’re saying, I want publishing to be part of my business, part of my brand, part of everything I do. And then we’re mapping out what that could look like.
AJV (28:36):
And if you don’t want that, then probably don’t need an agent, don’t need a publishing house. That’s really the, this is the self-published route, right? If you’re not trying to do this to grow a and treat it like a business, because at the end of the day, publishers are in business to sell books. Right. And they’re depending on you to do that.
EF (28:56):
Yeah. So like, like I’ll take 2022, we did 200 million in sales in book sales. And when you think about that, like wow, that’s $20 a book that’s 10 millions books sold last year from the Fed agency of all of our authors. Right? And that seems like a lot, but at the majority of, if you look at how many of those books actually sold over 500,000 copies, I mean you, you it’s maybe six.
AJV (29:22):
Yeah.
EF (29:24):
Lot of ’em sold a hundred thousand. And so you’re trying to get that author that sold 50,000 in the first year to the next year, saw a hundred thousand of their next book. Mm-Hmm.
AJV (29:55):
And you know, it’s so funny, it’s like when you’re thinking of selling a half a million or a million books, in theory that feels like a lot. But then if you think about it in context of even just the population of the United States is like roughly 365 million and we’re talking about people are trying to figure out how to sell 100,000. That’s such a teeny tiny, I know minuscule portion of the actual just population in the US forget North America or you know, the remain the remainder of the world. But it’s like, it’s really small. So what makes it so hard to reach even such a small percentage of the population?
EF (30:30):
I think a lot of authors give away their content for free. So people don’t think they need to buy the book cuz they’ve heard it. And that’s a big mistake. I mean, you have to give bits mm-hmm. And pieces, but you have to make the book unique that it’s a, you need to read this, right? Don’t, like PE pastors do a sermon series. You walk in, you’ve heard it, you’ve seen you get everything for free, right? So why would you spend $25 for a hardback book? You already got it for free. So it’s making that urgency, right? That need that you need to buy it. And we try to help our authors build transactional audiences, audiences that will pay money, not audiences that just get everything from you for free. And that’s where I think if you’re in business, you’re gonna be thinking, I wanna give some things for free, but I’m not gonna give the magic away for free. Right. I’m gonna make them know that there’s value and that they’re gonna pay for that.
AJV (31:18):
Mm-Hmm.
EF (31:28):
Good
AJV (31:29):
You can give away the what charge for the how.
EF (31:32):
I agree with that like that. And that’s why e-courses are doing so well, right? Because people want, but listen, it’s like if someone gives you a free ticket to a concert right? You’re chances are you probably won’t go right? But when you pay $200 for a ticket, you’re gonna
AJV (31:46):
Show up. It’s an investment. Yeah.
EF (31:47):
It’s an investment. And so I think like, I think the same thing when you, when it an e-course someone says, oh, here’s my e-course for 20 bucks join. I show up like it’s a $20 e-course. Right? But if I’m paying $3,000 for e-course, I’m gonna show up like it’s a $3,000 e-course, I’m gonna look nice. I’m gonna do my makeup, I’m gonna like, but if it’s 20 bucks, I’m like in my workout clothes with wall cap on saying, okay, let me see what the heck this is. You know?
AJV (32:10):
Yeah. Well, and like I’ll, I I tell you like last year I made this commitment that I was gonna read a book every month, right. And I did. I was like, so I, I read 15 books last year. I was so proud of myself. And so, let tell you what happened though is I was reminded of the power of a book and I had forgotten that because I had gotten away and just listening to podcasts and listening to short form contents. And I got reminded in the biggest, most profound way last year from reading 15 books that I even think about myself. Like the amount of time, like, you know, don’t take offense to this, but the amount of time that I took to prepare for this interview, right? That it’s, it’s minutes, right? It’s like 30 minutes versus the amount of time that you prepare, write, edit, rewrite, reedit.
AJV (33:02):
A book is months if not years. Versus I will throw out a podcast with 30 minutes of preparation. I’ll whip together a blog post in 30 minutes and I’ll do a short form video content with five minute prep time. And that is nothing compared to the amount of time, sweat efforts, just incredible resource to put together a book that we then only charge $25 for. Yep. And just a major shout out to when you think you listen to a podcast and you got it, you don’t, you don’t, like there is just, I’m so positively reminded of that last year.
EF (33:44):
Yeah. And there aj there’s something about highlighting in a book, right? It’s thinking about it like if you’re reading it that like I read it a lot for living. So I’m always reading but highlighting and saying, oh, this is really good. This is a sticky state statement of magic. Right? This could change someone’s life. It’s, you get to spend time and sit with it. Mm-Hmm.
AJV (34:20):
I’m so on the same page with that because I just, I’m still reveling in the fact that some of these books, I’m like, this will change my life forever. And it was a $25 investment. I’ve spent 8,000, $10,000 on events that I’m like, I’m taking long lunch breaks and checking emails. And it’s like,
EF (34:42):
Yeah. So I represent this, this really famous therapist, right? And like, she doesn’t even do sessions anymore, but if you did a session, it’ll be like a thousand dollars an hour, right? This is here, you can get her book for $25 Right. And she can, you’ll read it and it could actually save your marriage, right? Or yes. You know, help you like deal with depression or whatever it is. Any mental health issue. And I’m like, it’s $25, right? Like that is like, that’s so amazing, right? That you could get that. You just have to read it and do the work, right? Yeah. It’s the same, like, same thing with any diet book, right? Or health book. It really can change your life, right? If you read it and apply it and it’s only 25 bucks cuz you get a personal trainer, it’s gonna cost you a hundred bucks an hour at least. Right?
AJV (35:23):
Or a coach or a consultant or counseling, all these things. Yeah. So there’s, there’s
EF (35:29):
A way, there’s a way a book, like if you actually use it, do it. You can save a lot of money and get the best value, you know? Heck
AJV (35:39):
Yeah. Cause I just, that’s part of why I wanted to have this call with you cuz I have had such a, I I’ve, I’ve re fallen in love with books and the written words because of my commitment to do this, you know, for a little personal challenge last year. And now I’m just like, I’m blown away that it’s like the amount of money I’ve spent on other things compared to the amount of money I spent on books is not even in comparison. But what I learned from the books versus what I’ve learned from all the other things I did is insurmountably bigger.
EF (36:06):
What was, okay, out of the 15 books you read last year, what was your favorite book?
AJV (36:10):
I have, well, I have to have two because one is the one that will forever change my life and my Eternity, which is the book Heaven by Randy Alcorn. And I read every single word and it’s long and it’s heavy
EF (36:46):
Head. Did you read that one?
AJV (36:48):
I did. That was, that’s how I finished the year was with that. But the one that was my favorite book of the entire year is Nothing to Prove.
EF (36:55):
Good
AJV (36:56):
Book. Nothing to prove. Get out of your head, find your People. We’re all Jenny Allen books that were at the top of my list. But nothing to prove would’ve been my favorites last year. And I just like, I think that’s just a great reminder for anyone who’s listening who is an author. It’s like, don’t forget that in addition to hitting the list, you’re actually changing people’s lives. That’s ultimately, yeah, ultimately that’s really
EF (37:19):
Good. But you got one Jenny Allen booking, guess what you did? You wrote, you read three more after that. So
AJV (37:24):
I have her avatar. Like she, she writes for me
EF (37:27):
AJV (37:37):
You gotta have great content, right? Have great content.
EF (37:41):
Yep. We get thousands of letters in of suicides, not committed of people coming to Christ of marriages saying family’s reunited. And we, like, I tell my staff all the time, this is why we do what we do, right? Like we’re, we’re a part of this because we help get the book out. And I like, that’s really rewarding and I mean humbling and rewarding, but that’s, that’s why you write a book is you’re, the last part is what we were talking about is that these lives are changed, right? Mm-Hmm.
AJV (38:31):
But you’ll never sell a million copies if you don’t have incredibly great content and you’re not willing to market and sell the pants off of it. And I think that is like two really big takeaways for everybody. All right. I know we’re almost outta time, but I have two more really important questions for you. Okay. When it comes to category listings, how important is that?
EF (38:51):
When you mean like on the what it’s the one category or are you talking about Amazon?
AJV (38:58):
I would say both, but we’ll start with Amazon, right? Because I know so many people who are obsessive of has to be in this very specific category because in this category I know that on this week that I can hit X, y, Z.
EF (39:12):
So I, we do a much categories as you can, right? Like on Amazon, because you can, we have a book that hit the okay, so our youngest author, she’s 17, she did a, a c book, a children’s book on like aquarium type of thing, right? And one of the categories we picked that we put her on at Amazon was Turtles. And she hit number one bestseller in Turtles Never. But now that helps the algorithm, right? So yes, I think authors the mistake they make is like, I wanna be in self-help. Great. Let’s be a little more specific because we want you, the algorithms start kicking in and it working and I could do a whole talk with you on Amazon how it works. Cuz doing this for years and years and actually working with people on Amazon are very high level trying to figure this stuff out. You wanna, you want the algorithm working in your favor. So you, you don’t wanna be so broad, you actually wanna try to nail down be pretty specific and that’s what helps you hit bestsellers in different categories. Yeah. And nobody looks back in the day for categorizing, like for Barnes Noble people cared if it was like religious religion, right? Or sell cookbooks or nobody looks at that anymore. Mm-Hmm.
AJV (40:26):
Totally. No one even pays attention.
EF (40:29):
No one pays attention. Just like no one pays attention to what’s on a spine of a book. Like who the publisher is really only people in the business like me and you and but like the general person doesn’t know the difference between what publishers, what publisher, they couldn’t tell you Penguin Random House was the largest publisher in the world. They have no clue. Right? So Yeah,
AJV (40:46):
That’s so true. It’s so true about nobody
EF (40:50):
Else cares about
AJV (40:51):
EF (41:19):
And you, you wanted to say number one bestseller, right? It doesn’t, they’re not looking number one best seller in turtles, right? But our marketing director did a really good job of really narrowing it down to that niche of turtles, right? Cause there’s a turtle on the cover. I’m not laughing cause I’m like, that was kind of genius, right? Because this girl doesn’t have any platform. She’s like a high school student, but here you go. She just hit number one Amazon bestseller interns.
AJV (41:41):
You know, I’m telling you like that is just so important. Back to marketing, branding, selling, writing the book is just a piece of this puzzle. But it’s like you’ve gotta have a good team who knows what they’re doing to figure out these little nuances. And a part of that is like, and I, Rory always corrects me and he goes, it’s not that hitting the list doesn’t matter, it’s just, it’s a piece of the puzzle. But the more times that you can hit the list and the more you sell, the more other people will hear about it and then it spreads. So I have to remind myself of that. Cuz I’m one of those like, it doesn’t matter, but it kinda does. Cause when you do
EF (42:19):
Exactly rose’s, right, you’re both are right. But the other side is the best part is when you see it on the list over and over and mm-hmm.
AJV (42:40):
Yeah. Not looking for the one hit wonder. Okay, last set of questions and then I have a personal question for you. What, no, you told me earlier like kinda like three things, like make it sticky, have good content, have a good platform, it needs to be unique. That’s like generally speaking, but for you personally, like working with a 17 year old girl who has no platform, right? And I just also happen to know some of your authors who don’t have big platforms and all of that. So I know that’s not the only thing you look for and I just think it’s really unique to find an agent who is willing to invest in people who you’re like, no, I see something in you. I see something in this message and I’m gonna, I’m gonna, I’m gonna do it regardless. It may not get me the biggest advance and you may not this, this and this, but so I’m curious for you personally, what, what makes an author someone that you’re like, you, I wanna work with you.
EF (43:29):
Oh, okay. So I’m a sucker. Okay. Like, listen, like for story, right? So someone comes in and they have a crazy story. I’m like, oh my gosh. And I cry all the time. Like, I don’t know what happened in my forties. I just like
EF (44:09):
If I’m touched by the story, I’m like, I wanna do it. I wanna help you get this message out. But that author has to wanna work. I usually, yeah. Like if an author is like, eh, I don’t need it. I really, I, I, I don’t have that much time in the day. Like, I like to help start businesses and empower people to keep going. I think the biggest mistake people make is they quit before their miracle. Like they’re right there and they just give up. So the best are the authors that are really in it. And so if I have someone that’s super passionate and really in it and know that this is a core message, it’s really hard for me to say no to that.
AJV (44:42):
Mm. I love that. So for you, it really does come down to two.
EF (44:46):
Oh yeah. I’m, I said, I was like, my whole team’s like Esther say no. I’m like, yeah, but this story’s so good and I think it’s got some legs and maybe this could be a movie or maybe we could do this. And so it’s fun like thinking through it. But yeah, like sometimes I have to bring my team in the, for them to be like, no, this isn’t,
AJV (45:04):
We all have to have people who are willing to say no in our lives. But I love that it’s like it’s, this is story, but also are you willing to work? Are you willing to work? Are you willing to work as hard as I’m gonna have to to make this come to life? I love that. I think that’s so cool. All right. Here’s a personal question for you in the group. So you kinda told us earlier what your favorite book was. Well I dunno if it’s your favorite book of all time, but How to Win Friends and Influence People. I would say, what has been the book that you would say, like, for me, heaven will be like forever change the direction of my life. But I would also say like nothing to prove and discovering Jenny Allen has been a life-changing event for me in the last 12 months of going, I’ve never read a book where I’m like, oh, I’m your avatar. It’s so clear who you’re writing to. It’s me. Hi My name’s aj. So I would say to you like, do you have a, an author or a book that you’re like, I don’t care who you are or anything, but if you read this work or read, read this book, or from this author, like, it’s gonna change your life?
EF (46:02):
I do. So everybody that knows me knows my book. Like it’s changed my life. It changed the way I thought about business. It’s changed everything. It’s actually Buck there. It’s by Mark Patterson, who’s one of my favorite authors that I have the privilege of working with. It’s called the Circle Maker. And I, I read the Circle Maker. I was agenting for seven years of my own company and I was pretty successful. And I read this book and it like, it, it just wrecked me. And you know how people are like, oh, I pray, or I, I do this right? And, and remember I get to read it before all of you guys read it. So I’m like, way ahead of thinking, you know? And I’m like, this is gonna be a bestseller. It was a New York Times bestseller. It’s sold over 5 million copies. It’s been unbelievable.
EF (46:44):
But what’s so cool about this book is this guy, it’s, we, we sold it as Hony the circle draw what’s called the Circle Maker. And it’s about praying circles, right? So I started believing God. I prayed circles around every office. I prayed circles around an office building I wanted to buy. I prayed circles like, God, if this is for me, prayed for every employee on every desk. And guess what? I started getting better employees. I started getting like more champions. I started getting bigger authors. And there was this guy, he talks about the end of the book, right? So it doesn’t ruin the book for you guys, but there was this guy named Gypsy Smith, right? And he was this evangelist that traveled all over the world. I think he did 45 trips around the world. And he was this amazing preacher speaker. And somebody asked him like, what was, was the secret?
EF (47:29):
And he’s like, was his prayer life? And he goes right away, he goes, these revival secrets were asking what was God like, what’s, how can God use me? And so when I was reading this book, I’m like, God, how can you use me in a bigger way? And he goes, go home, lock your door, kneel in the middle of the floor. Draw, take a piece of chalk, draw a circle around yourself and pray fervently and brokenly for God to do a revival inside that chalk circle. Mm-Hmm.
AJV (48:29):
Why? I just wrote it down. I wrote it down. Part of me is
EF (48:33):
I’m gonna send you a copy. So I’ll send you one today.
AJV (48:36):
EF (48:42):
Both. Right. So I’m a speed reader so I can read pretty fast obviously cuz I, I read like 300 books a year. But I listened to, so a lot of times I’m, I’m a big believer every book you have to do an audiobook. I don’t let my authors not do an audiobook. It really, yeah. Makes me mad if they don’t wanna do an audiobook. Audio is up to 347% in the last two years. Wow. So more people are listening than reading right now. Huge authors, and I can give you the stats. They’re selling more in audio than actual print. Print cells are still up by the way. So it’s, it’s like, it’s both, they’re buying both versions. Like I do that all the time. I buy the print version and I buy, I listen to audio and sometimes I read a little bit of books. Sometimes I listen to it. I think listening, like when I’m walking or working out or like in the car, it’s so much easier to listen. But I still love to read. So I read every one of the books I represent I or listen to it, one or the other. So I think it’s whatever, whatever your preference is.
AJV (49:41):
Yeah, I love that. I
EF (49:42):
Remember it better AJ if I’m reading it than if I’m listening to it cuz like, you can tune out or get too strong. But when I’m reading it, I feel like I really take it in more.
AJV (49:50):
Yeah, I’m with you on that. I always I always tease my husband. I’m like, you did not read that. You listened to that. That’s not, you can’t say I’ve read that. You can only say I listen to it.
EF (50:00):
I have to tell her when reading or listening. It’s the same thing, right? Because
AJV (50:03):
No, it’s not, it’s not the same thing. I’m so too, I’m so biased, but I’m, I’m very much like, I’m a speed reader. So it’s like I can, I can crush books. I crush books. But I love but I love to hold it. I love to like feel the pages fold ’em, doggier, highlight, underline. But there’s power in everything. Think
EF (50:21):
All women. I think all women like that, right? Like we like take those.
AJV (50:24):
I like to hold it. But I would also say as unbiased feedback for anyone who is listening, when you do your audiobook, at least from this one consumer’s piece of feedback, read your own book. Please do not hire someone else to read your book. I want to hear the author’s voice and connotations and I want to hear it from you. So piece of unbiased feedback. And Esther, I would just say, man, not only are you like repre representing authors that are truly changing the trajectory of this world, like the work you’re doing is changing the world. You are helping get things out there that are saving lives transforming lives. And man, it’s such an honor to get to meet you and have you on the show. Thank you so much. I’m so excited to release this episode and get it out into the world. So thanks for giving us your time today. Thank you. Thanks for having me. All right, everybody, stay tuned and listen to the recap conversation that I’m gonna do on my conversation with Esther. And we’ll see you next time on the Influential Personal Brand. See you later.
Ep 369: How to Build Recurring Revenue | John Meese Episode Recap
RV (00:02):
How do you build massive recurring revenue? That is the theme of today’s show. And recap, this is sort of based off the interview that I did with John Meese talking about how to build massive membership sites, and we’re gonna talk about some of those highlights. But really, I wanna zero in on some of what our, what we believe our keys are to building massive recurring revenue and, and even just understanding what recurring revenue is and why does, why does recurring revenue even matter? And I wanna just kind of start with a little bit of a track record here. So you know, this is something that we know something about. Brand Builders is a recurring revenue model. I mean, our core business is a one-on-one coaching or, and training product that people pay a subscription for. And that’s our, our flagship program includes you know, coming to two days of training every month, and also one-on-one coaching every single month as well.
RV (01:04):
And then there’s a, there’s a, a, a, a do it yourself, like a self-study version of it, which is you get access to all the online training, and that’s a lower, a lower version. But we are a membership site, or not a membership site. We’re a recurring revenue business. And the business that we sold in 2018, a huge component of that business was also recurring revenue. So this is something we know a lot about and have a lot of experience in. And I first wanna talk to you about why would you even consider recurring revenue and, and, and, and what are some of the, some of the strengths and some of the reasons to have recurring revenue. One of the great things about recurring revenue, so this is some of the, you know, selling subscriptions, is because every month you don’t start on zero, right?
RV (01:48):
Like every month you’re not automatically on zero every month, you automatically come into the month with revenue contracted. Now, not always does a hundred percent of that come in, but you always have a, a, a, a large number, a large proportion of revenue contracted. And so that’s really, really valuable. And y you know, just in terms of taking the pressure off, because what recurring revenue does is it allows you to kind of predict for the future. It’s, it’s, it’s more predictable. And so because it’s more predictable, we can say, okay, well if, if we can grow our revenues, you know, we’re always factoring for churn. So some percentage of people are gonna leave, and hopefully we’re gonna seal that back door with retention, which we’ll talk about. But the the other thing that we will we’ll try to do is we’re always bringing people in the front door and, and then the snowball is growing.
RV (02:44):
And so it’s a snowball that gets bigger and bigger and bigger. So the revenue is steady, it’s consistent, and then you can plan for growth. You can say, gosh, you know, hiring this person would be a little scary right now, I don’t know that we could afford them, but assuming some basic metrics. And, you know, if we can look back and say, Hey, statistically our, our revenues grow at this rate, we can sort of forecast more predictably and more comfortably in the future to say, yeah, there’s probably some investments we could make, whether it’s technology or personnel or you know, equipment or whatever you know, software tools you need or services you need done to go, I think we, we can, we can swing it based on, you know, our growth trajectory. The other reason why recurring revenue is so valuable is it’s, it’s literally more valued in terms of business valuation.
RV (03:35):
So when you look at the financial valuations of a business, this is a super deep dive by the way that in our, one of our phase four courses is called eight Figure Entrepreneur. And we really teach the real mechanics of, of, you know, the, just the, the basic foundations of finance and acumen, cash flow and things like that that most entrepreneurs don’t get, not even in business school. You know, I have an M B A and I would say I, there was so much practical information I I never got. But when you look at how businesses are valued, businesses are valued based on an estimated stream of future cash flows. So in other words, they’re saying, what’s the likelihood, the way I describe it is pretend that you, here’s how you, here’s how you value a business. Think of it as a money machine.
RV (04:22):
And if, if I had a money machine that printed dollar bills and I said, Hey, I have a machine here that prints a $1 bill every year. How much is, how much would, would I sell this machine to you? And what would you be willing to buy this machine? And we go, well, we know it’s, it’s probably worth at least a dollar cuz it prints a dollar every year. And you know, if you don’t do anything to improve the machine, if it’s a reliable machine, there’s probably gonna be a dollar next year. So that would be $2, you know, in, in three years from now, it’s gonna be at least $3. Now the machine could break down. So that’s part of what as the buyer is assessing as what’s the likelihood that machine’s gonna break down or the strategic, A strategic buyer is somebody who says, Hmm, I know how to take $1 machines and I can turn them into machines that print a dollar every month.
RV (05:09):
I have some expertise or some skill or some people on my team who can take that machine and make it per print more, either $1 bills faster or can print dollar bills that are not a dollar, but $5 or $10 or $50. And so that’s what, how businesses are valued. It’s like, what’s the, what’s the reliability of the revenue coming in the future and saying, I’m willing to, when someone values a business and buys a business, they’re saying, I’m gonna, I’m gonna basically buy three years of your future cash flow now and assuming going, I’m gonna take the risk of going this machine. I’m buying from you. I’m going to, it’s gonna take me three years to earn my money back, but then after that, I’ll make more money. Or because I believe that I can pay, pay you three years worth of earnings for your machine now.
RV (05:59):
And I think I can, I can increase the productivity of that machine. And that’s effectively right there is how businesses are valued, which they really overcomplicate in a lot of, you know, academic institutions and schools and just people don’t understand it in general. Well, so then why is recurring revenue valuable? Because recurring revenue is predictable, and as predictability goes up, the valuation of the business goes up because the likelihood of those cash flows being there, every single month goes up when it’s already contracted versus when I have to go out and sell a whole new bunch of customers. So recurring revenue companies have higher values, they’re literally worth more because they’re more consistent and more the revenue’s more consistent and more predictable. You know, and if you look at SaaS companies, software companies, a lot of times those companies are valued based on a multiple of their revenue.
RV (06:51):
Whereas most companies are valued on a multiple of their profits. And so it becomes highly valuable when you have recurring revenue because it, it’s enticing to a potential buyer. So the demand for that money machine i e a business is, is higher. So those are some of the reasons to do recurring revenue. The, one of the other reasons why we love recurring revenue, and, and here’s a good way so in our, our phase one course one which is called finding your brand, d n a, one of the things we help people do is, is figure out what their primary business model should be. Your primary business model. Is that the revenue stream to which all others are subservient to that one. And we talk about when you should choose a course versus when you should choose a membership site. And there’s all these factors.
RV (07:39):
Well, one of the factors is to say, if you are good at constantly finding new customers and you’re good at it and you, you, your talents lend themselves to it and you want to do it, you go, a course is a really good option because once the course is built, you don’t have to change much. You can focus your time on just finding new people to buy the existing thing. But if you struggle with marketing and sales and you go, man, I struggle to find new customers, I’m not as, as talented at as that, then we go, well, sometimes membership sites are better because what you can do is you can spend less time acquiring new customers and spend more time creating content to service your existing customers. And so that’s kind of what we do. I mean, we like to think we’re good at both marketing and sales especially is like kind of our expertise.
RV (08:30):
And, but, but we don’t love having to sell every single month just to like hit the budget, right? So we love having the recurring revenue and going, you know, at least for me, I think one of my superpowers is creating content. So it’s easier for me, even though I love marketing and sales, and we’re good at marketing and sales, and that’s what we teach people how to do. I, I, my superpower I think is even more so in creating content. So it’s easier for me to go, yeah, let me, let me find a few customers who will be in a continuity with us and let’s serve them in a deeper way. Now, at Brand Builders Group, we currently have over 600 active clients that are in our, our our monthly training, you know, and coaching program which are our flagship programs. And there’s like a self, you know, there’s a do-it-yourself version, and then there’s a one-on-one version, which also includes our live training events.
RV (09:25):
And then we have, we have like 300 private clients on top of that who just hire us for private projects and private, you know topics at at at less consistent. Those are more like, those are more like sales. They’re not recurring revenue, they’re bigger hits of revenue. When someone just says, ah, I really wanna like, focus on my podcast, just hire us to help you with that. Or writing their book or launching their book or their keynote or building out their funnels or, and it’s more of just they’re hiring us for, in a more expedient way to focus on a burst. But those are ones like, you have to be selling new ones every month versus the recurring revenues going, Hey, when you’re on a recurring membership, we give you all of those things, we give you access to all of ’em, and we’ll step you through ’em as you need to.
RV (10:06):
So that’s a little bit about why recurring revenue matters and understanding how it affects business valuation. Again, if, if you look at the difference between a company valued on revenue versus a company valued on profit most companies are valued on, on, on profit or ebitda earnings before interest, taxes, depreciation, and amortization, which basically just means profit, which is, you know, to use my money machine analogy which by the way is an analogy I came up with of, of just thinking about a business just as a simple m money printing machine to go, okay, a dollar, if my money, my money machine prints a dollar every year, that’s the profit of, that’s the final output. But and most companies, you know, depending on a whole number of factors, but let’s say you were getting a just a five multiple meanings, if someone were to pay you a five multiple, that means a buyer’s gonna basically come in and say, I’m gonna pay you five years worth of profits, five years worth of future profits today to buy your money machine.
RV (11:08):
So I’m gonna, if, if you have a dollar in profit, I’m gonna pay you $5. I’m a multiple of five, I’m gonna give you $5 today knowing or feeling confidently, like I will at least get my $5 back over the next five years and hopefully faster if I can do some things to improve the efficiency of the operation or if I have other strategic reasons to make that acquisition. That’s how most business deals are done. It’s a multiple of profits or multiple of ebitda, but recurring revenue, like SaaS companies often are valued on revenue. So if, if you get a, a value of let’s say you get a, a multiple of five, but instead of on your profits, it’s a, it is on your revenue. So, for example, to use this same example, a company that produces a dollar in profit every year, let’s say their revenue is $10, so that would be a company operating at a 10% profit margin.
RV (12:03):
So they generate $10 in revenue, they gotta pay all their expenses, their salespeople, their marketing, their overhead, you know, the product acquisition, their taxes, their insurance, their, you know, everything. And then at the end of the day, maybe they have a 10% profit. Like, and you go, okay, I generated $10 in revenue, a dollar in profit. Normally it’s a a five multiple would say, oh I’m getting, I’m gonna get $5 for that business, five times, $1. But when you’re valued on revenue, it’s a game changer to go, I’m, if I got a, if I got a a, a multiple of five on revenue, it’s not five times $1, it’s five times $10. So that company is to buy that company is not $5, but $50, five times 10, the multiple of five times the revenue of $10. So that’s five years worth of revenues.
RV (12:55):
I’m valuing, valuing that company based on revenues that that company is worth $50 instead of $5 because it’s five years of future revenues versus five years of future profits, right? One of the dynamics that makes companies more have a higher enterprise value is, oh, and be more likely to be valued on revenue, is the consistency of the revenue, which is, you know, happens with recurring revenue. So that’s probably more than most of you wanted to know, but I, I mean, I literally went through MBA school and never understood that basic core concept. It wasn’t until years later as an entrepreneur that I, I, I had a mentor finally explained it to me, sort of in, in simpler English. And it’s important to understand that. And, and that is, even if you plan on never selling your business, I mean, this is again, another principle.
RV (13:45):
We teach an eight figure entrepreneur, is that a business worth selling? Looks a whole lot like a business worth keeping. You know, a business worth selling is a business that operates without you with consistency and produces loss of cash flow inevitably into the future. Well, a business that does that looks a lot like a business worth keeping. I mean, if you have a money machine that prints money every year and it doesn’t require a lot of your time, and there’s not a lot of risk in, in those, that money machine breaking down, you go, why didn’t I just keep it? So the money machine’s just printing money and I’m just keeping the money every year. That’s the way to think about it. Recurring revenue increases consistency, thereby reduces volatility or reduces risk, thereby increasing the valuation of that business, whether you sell it or you keep it.
RV (14:25):
So high level, that’s why recurring revenue is such a good idea. Now, how do you create great recurring revenue? Couple of the key things, if you’re wanting to create recurring revenue of your business, and John talked about this a little bit in the, in the interview, but if you really wanna create a quality recurring revenue product, the question that I would pose for you to answer is this, what is the problem that I can solve that never goes away? What is a problem that I can solve that never goes away? In other words, the need for it continues on month after month after month, which causes people to want to continue paying for us. Accountability is one of the, one of the core problems that we solve. Now, technically the problem we solve is obscurity. We help people who are struggling to be more well known to, to do that.
RV (15:24):
And we teach them a set of information and strategies for how to do that. And all the tactics that we have now used to launch, you know, we’ve had 12 clients that have become New York Times or Wall Street Journal bestsellers. We’ve had four clients create TED Talks that have gone viral with over a million views. We’ve had over we, we just had our, our fifth client generate more than seven figures growth in their annual revenue. So they’ve grown their revenue more than a million dollars a year since being a client of ours. So we have a set of knowledge that we teach people to do that. But what the need, the, the, the problems that never go away are accountability, community and access to great vendors and as well as inspiration, right? You, the inspiration is like never, it’s a, it’s something that never disappears.
RV (16:13):
So those are the, some of the problems we’re solving. So you gotta sort of think about it if you’re gonna create a membership site or if you have one and you’re going, how do I, how do I get the snowball rolling faster? Be thinking about what are the problems that my clients have that never go away? And how can I serve those needs better? All right? So that’s my first key for how to grow your recurring revenue. The second, the second key, and this one is directly from the, from the the mind of AJ Vaden. So AJ talks about this all the time with our team internally, is when you’re growing recurring revenue, it’s sort of a two-part game. You need new people coming in the front door. But the big thing that everybody misses, which is really the, like, the more critical one I think is you have to seal the back door.
RV (17:05):
You have to like, you have to be so sticky that people aren’t leaving. Otherwise, you literally have a treadmill or this revolving door where you got people coming in as fast as they’re going out, or if they’re leaving faster, then you’re bringing ’em in, then you’re going backwards, right? And that’s negative churn. So y you, the, the, the first real job is to go, man, even before we perfect bringing in new customers, it’s going, how do we close that back door? In other words, how do we keep people from canceling? And when I say key people from canceling, I don’t mean like locking them in to, to, to, to being forced to stay to something that they hate. It’s not like going, Hey, you gotta have, you know, these contract terms that are just relentless. And it’s not that, here’s the key, the key is retention or, or excuse me, here’s the, here is the key to growing your membership site.
RV (18:00):
Utilization equals retention. Utilization equals retention. This is what AJ is saying all the time. Utilization equals retention. Meaning the way to serve your current customers is you have to make sure they’re using whatever the thing is that you’ve given them. And this is a distinct mindset shift. A lot of people think that sales is done once the sale is made. And when you have that mindset of like, oh, I closed the sale, I’m onto the next, I’m onto the next, that doesn’t work. We don’t think that works, period. You know, in one of our phase three courses, it’s called pressure-free persuasion. We, we talk about how the sale is not done when the sale is made. The sale is finished. When the client experiences the result that you promised the sale isn’t made, or the sale, the sale isn’t finished. When the sale is made, the sale is finished.
RV (18:55):
When the client experiences the result that you know, you promised or that you were both working towards you probably didn’t promise it. I would recommend you don’t promise results. Just like you can’t, we cannot guarantee results even though we’ve had amazing results. And that’s why our client list continues to be amazing, right? I mean, we’re working with Ed Millet and Louis Howes and Amy Porterfield and, and you know, Eric Thomas et the hip hop preacher and Peter Diamandis and all these amazing people that are, are now clients of ours, cuz we are really getting amazing results. But utilization equals retention. So the sale that you have to make every month is not so much to a new customer like you might with more of a commoditized model, like a course offering, let’s say the sale you gotta make is to your current customers to use the thing they have.
RV (19:45):
So you always have to be selling, right? You still have to be selling, you gotta be selling them on making sure they’re using what you’ve given them. Utilization equals retention. If your people are using your program, if they’re using your service, if they’re using, if they’re accessing your portal, if they’re utilizing your tools, they’re gonna stay. If they’re not using your tools, they gonna leave, right? They’re not going to pay for something they’re not using. Even if what you’re providing is amazing world class best in class, even if your solution is the best there is, if your clients aren’t using it, they are bowing out, they’re gonna be leaving, right? So I’m not so focused, like if I were gonna buy a recurring, if as a, as a, as a business acquirer, if I were gonna go buy a company who had recurring revenue, I would be looking at their u the utilization.
RV (20:40):
Are people using the thing they’re paying for? If they’re using it, even if the product is crappy, I go, it’s, that’s great. I can make the product better. That’s not that hard. But if people aren’t using it, then I go, you just got a bunch of people paying for something here that are, you know, it’s a parking lot that no one is using and going, that’s not gonna long term, that’s not gonna work. We gotta get people using the thing. So utilization equals retention. And there’s a couple key things here for how to increase your utilization. So first of all, you gotta have a journey. You need to have a map, you need to have a visual that outlines what the process looks like. For those of you that are listening that are members in captivating content, which is our phase one course two program, that’s what we help you do.
RV (21:26):
We help you extrapolate your unique expertise and experience into a proprietary methodology, a body of work, a visual journey of, of illustrations and frameworks and flow charts and, and, and chart and tables that that show. This is the process. If you’re a member of ours, you know, we have the brand builder journey. It’s our four phase process that we walk you through from going you’re completely obs obscure and unknown to world famous and world recognized eight figure entrepreneur, best-selling author, hall of fame speaker you know, all the things that we have done and helped people do. We’ve got a four phase, a simple four-phase process that we push people through. And it works. Part of the reason why people stay is cuz they can see the whole journey. You gotta show them this, it’s this step and this step and this step. Don’t just assume that they’re gonna hang around blindly not knowing what, what it takes to actually get to where they’re trying to go.
RV (22:23):
So you wanna show that, talk about it, keep that in front of them so that they’re seeing like, oh, okay, you know, yes, it’s hard right now, but this is just a step and I’m gonna go to the next step and the next step and the next step, and that’s how I’m gonna ultimately get to where I want to go. So you gotta have a journey. The other thing is you gotta have data. You gotta have red flags going on, firing off in, in your, in your business. Meaning if somebody’s not using your stuff, you need to have dashboards and tools or reports or people who are monitoring that, who send up an alert to say, Hey, this is, and at, at at Brand Builders Group, I’ll just tell you transparently, we have something called an at-risk report where we’re looking at all of the people who haven’t been doing a certain number of activities.
RV (23:11):
So in our case, they haven’t logged into a portal in a certain number of days. They haven’t been to a course been to one of our live events in a certain number of days. They haven’t showed up for one on their one-on-one calls in a certain number of days. They haven’t, you know, been inside of our, our Facebook community, our private Facebook community in a certain number of days. And so we’re, because part of what we’re providing, part of what they’re paying for is frankly is accountability and inspiration. And this is how we track that, is go like, Hey, you’re not showing up, like you’re not doing the work. Like if you’re not coming, you’re not doing the work, which means you’re not getting the results, which means even though it’s not our fault that you’re not getting the result, the fact of the matter is you’re not getting the result, which means, means you’re not gonna keep paying.
RV (23:46):
So even if everything we do is perfect, if they’re not using it, it doesn’t matter, they’re gonna cancel. So we have to set up triggers and, you know, red flags and this at-risk report of all of these things. And we’re using automation tools to do this. And we’re using some of its manual reporting, some of it is customer surveys, some of it is manual outreach and check-ins, like to constantly go make sure people are using this. And, and here’s here’s another question that I would encourage you, you know, to, to ponder as it relate as it relates to this. Ask yourself this question, how can I serve my current audience in a deeper way? How can I serve my current audience in a deeper way? Because utilization equals retention. And if I’m serving them in a deeper way, then I’m, I’m speaking more powerfully to their immediate needs.
RV (24:40):
I’m providing the tools, the templates, the checklist for them to do it. Here’s a recent example for us. A lot of speakers struggle with how much should I charge? This has been, you know, gone on for decades, like what’s the right price to charge? And people throw out all these weird numbers. We created this, this speaker fee calculator. It’s, and it’s a simple set of questions you answer and it spits out not only what your speaking fee should be, but what your virtual fee should be and your half day fee and your two day fee and your international fee and your interview fee and all of it, it all spits out and it takes you like two and a half minutes to fill in this, this thing that is now a tool that solves a problem. We then also have a, a a a toolkit that is our speaker press kit and we go, you know, your speaker press Prescott needs to have a fee schedule.
RV (25:28):
Well, we just solved that problem, but then what about the rest of your speaker Prescott? What are all the things that need to be in there and how should it be structured and how should it be laid out? And we go, great. One of our incentives for people when they sign up I I think it’s, if I think if they sign up and pay for a year in advance, is we give them the template that we actually use for our own speaker press kits. And then you can like, model off of it and you can just build it, boom, up and running. So everything that we’ve been doing at Brand Builders Group for the last few years has been basically creating the education and all the educational resources. Now we’re moving much more aggressively and a assertively into how do we give people tools and templates and checklists to help them execute and implement what they’re learning faster.
RV (26:10):
And internally, our team is going, how are we monitoring utilization? Because utilization equals retention. Utilization equals retention. So that’s the second thing you really gotta do. Now the third thing is you gotta keep people coming in the front door. You gotta keep people always coming in the front door. And it’s just, you know, sales, sales solves all problems, right? Like if, if we, if we can figure out how to constantly generate new sales, then we’re gonna always have cash flow coming in that we can use to solve other problems or to hire people who can solve problems. The question is, do you have a consistent engine for driving new leads and new customers into your business?
RV (27:00):
Think about that. Just just think about that question to yourself for a second. Are you confident that you have an engine that consistently produces new leads and new customers for your business every month, every week, every day? Do you know exactly this is, this is how my machine works, we do this and then this happens, and then this happens, and then this happens and that brings somebody who finds us here and then they do this, and then they do this, and then they become a customer and then they stay because they’re utilizing the program. And you, if you aren’t confident on that, like if you aren’t crystal clear on what is your process, what is your system, what is your method for perpetually continually, constantly never ending, always driving new leads and new customers into your business? If you’re not clear on that, go to free brand call.com slash podcast right now, free brand call.com/podcast because you need to talk to our team because this is one of the things that we specialize the most in, is helping you create a, a set of mechanisms and systems and processes in your business to keep people coming in the front door.
RV (28:13):
They’ve gotta be coming in the front door because they’re always gonna leave out the back no matter how good your program is. And no matter how much you focus on retention, which, you know, as I just said, utilization equals retention. So we wanna close that back door, but even if your program is the best in the world, people are always going to leave. So you just gotta make sure you’re bringing in new customers faster than the older one, than the old ones are leaving by. And so you’re adding value to them and you’re also constantly refining and perfecting your new customer acquisition strategy. If you don’t feel confident or you’re not clear on how you get new customers and new leads on a regular consistent basis, you need to talk to us. I mean, I’m, I’m serious. Just go to free ran call.com/podcast, fill out the form and talk, talk to someone on our team because this is what we specialize in and this is why we’re doing it, right?
RV (29:07):
And I, you know, i i I don’t know how to say this without sounding like a total jerk, but like we, we just launched another seven figure business inside a brand builders group in like the last year. So we, we now have five different seven figure, multi seven figures businesses that we’ve built and two eight figure businesses. And it’s by following the same principles. All of these principles are are very straightforward, they’re not easy, but they are simple and they do work if you follow the system. So that’s why we’re here. We’d love to talk to you. If you’re not ready for that, hey, share this episode with somebody who needs to hear it. Obviously anything you can do to, to leave reviews helps us tremendously, but also helps new listeners so you know, rate and review and help us that way. And no matter what, keep coming back every week so that we can be keep pouring into you and giving you as much as we can Right here for free on the Influential Personal Brand podcast. That’s all we got today for how to build massive recurring revenue. We’ll catch you next time. We love ya. Bye-Bye.
Ep 368: How to Build Massive Membership Sites with John Meese
RV (00:02):
Well, today we’re gonna talk about a really important topic, membership sites, and a favorite topic of mine. And you’re gonna get to hear from one of my favorite people in the world on that topic, John Meese. So I’ve known John kind of loosely for years because he’s, he’s helped multiple people build membership sites. These, you know, six figure seven figure membership sites, specifically Platform University, which used to be owned by Michael Hyatt, who of course is good friend of ours, of mine, and AJ’s, Michael and Gail. And we’ve known Michael for years and he’d been a mentor and a friend. And so that’s how I met John. And Michael sold Platform University a few years ago. And I think around that time is when John started taking his expertise out and helping coaches and, and trainers and consultants and just anybody who’s out there to build wealth by starting an online business. And specifically, I think, you know membership sites. So he’s also the author of a bestselling book called Survive and Thrive, how to Build a Profitable Business in Any Economy, including this one. He’s bilingual in Espanol, and he just moved to Puerto Rico where he’s saving money on taxes, although that’s not why he’s went there primarily. But anyways, buddy, it’s good to have you here.
JM (01:23):
Thank you, Rory. It’s good to be here. It’s good to be here. Is the interview today gonna be bilingual or are we stick in English?
RV (01:28):
Yeah, no, I, yeah, we’re gonna do it in Spanish, man. Yes, you and me. It’s gonna be a back very, very short interview.
JM (02:02):
Yeah, so there are a lot of subscription type businesses, so I think it’s probably helpful to start by saying that my focus is generally helping people turn wisdom into wealth by building a thriving online education business. And so that’s a lot of the same work you do Rory, with Brand Builders Group of helping people build personal brands where there’s an educational component sometimes that looks like a course or coaching program or a life event or books. But memberships are the subscription version of that. And so some of my favorite membership sites that I’ve been a part of myself you know, you’re typically paying a monthly or annual fee to be part of a community where you get access to a combination of training, support, community. It’s more, there’s definitely more of a peer element than if you were maybe in like just watching a course.
JM (02:48):
Cuz often courses online courses are typically very kind of, you’re consuming it. And then that’s kind of it, like, there’s not usually a lot of community interaction, but community is a key part of membership sites. So there’s really two primary reasons to want a membership site in your business. One of them is kind of the obvious one, which is that when you build recurring revenue, now all of a sudden, every month you get to start knowing that you have a reliable recurring revenue coming in from customers who’ve subscribed to pay you automatically. I, like John Orlow calls this the the automatic customer, and I like that idea. I was just saying like, that’s a great book, you make the sale once. Yeah, it’s a great book. And, and it’s a great concept too, of just the idea that each month you’re like, well, I automatically have customers, I don’t have to start with zero.
JM (03:31):
So that’s huge. And recurring revenue can really grow over time to become an incredible source of generating wealth. But the flip side of that is also, it’s a phenomenal way to serve to serve your clients, to serve your customers and your audience. Because the reality is what, I mean, the academic churn is typically MOOCs or massive open online courses for like, what we know is like an online course where you buy it, it sits on the digital shelf somewhere, maybe you watch it. And historically, the, I mean just kind of industry-wide, the completion rates on online courses are very low. And the success rate of someone taking an online course and actually going to do it, actually do the work and succeed, which of course is what you want, not just their money. That’s also very low. Membership sides allow you to take the same kind of educational content and scalable educational content you might put in a course, but add ongoing community and support that allows people to stay connected to ongoing transformation. How
RV (04:26):
Do you do the community part of it? Like Yeah. Is is it, is it mostly a Facebook group? Like is it I mean, do you, do you, do you see that most people are using a Facebook group as their mechanism for hosting community? Or is there some other way that they’re achieving that? The objective of getting the members? Cuz that is a huge part of it is yeah, who do you meet and supporting people and meeting other, like referral relationships, et cetera, et cetera. How do, how do you facilitate that?
JM (04:58):
You know, Facebook groups at one point in time were kind of just the standard for membership sites because it’s kind of where everybody is or was. But I would say these days it’s still an option, really. The, the software you’re using or the platform you’re using is really secondary to the strategy for how you’re interacting with people. That said, I don’t really know, I can maybe think of one or two people I know with successful membership sites that are still on Facebook groups. Most people have used an independent platform that where you have a lot more control. There’s a lot of popular ones, but honestly I think the best one by far is circle. And so that was created by some of the early people at Teachable, which, you know, is like the biggest course platform in the world. And some of them spun off and created Circle, which is you know, essentially it’s your ability to create a private group. They even added courses within that now. So you can have courses community, you can, well, as much as I love Zoom, which you and I are talking in right now, you can actually replace Zoom by doing live streams or, or meetings through Circle as well. And they have a mobile app. And so there’s really the software secondary to the strategy strategy, but I would say Circle is like an all in one for having a great membership site.
RV (06:01):
Okay. That’s interesting. So kind of in the vein of, of retention or, or yeah, like of community is, there’s a retention, right? So the, the, to me, when it, when somebody starts a membership site, they go, oh man, recurring revenue. Like, yeah, you know, why, why, why sell a course for $500 when I can get people to pay me a hundred dollars a month and then they’ll stay forever. But I feel like the thing that we see pretty consistently is that people are gonna drop off around month three or four. So what do you think are some of the keys to retention? Because if that happens, if you were gonna sell a $500 course and now you’re just doing a hundred dollars a month membership Yeah. And now they’re only staying three or four, you actually have, you’ve gone the wrong direction, right? You’re losing money by converting it. Now there’s some other benefits of, of it, but I, I mean, what are some of the things that you see that help the retention component of this? Because to me, that’s really where the magic is, right?
JM (07:05):
Yeah. Well, it’s worth talking about your question’s. Great, Victoria, because it, it kind of illuminates sort of the ugly truth about membership sites. Cause we started with sort of the beauty of membership sites, right? It’s just recurring revenue. Your customers are getting transformation all the time. You’re getting recurring revenue all the time. That’s like the nice side. But the between the membership sites is that the minute you start a membership site, it’s upside down. And by that I mean the same way that you can be upside down at a house where you owe more than it’s worth. The minute you start a membership site, you have members who are paying, you have some members coming to pay, but for you to deliver a high value membership site, you have to give ongoing value. It has to be re not just, it’s not just kind of an on-demand library.
JM (07:43):
There has to be some sort of value giving on a regular basis to get people to stay. Because really the measure of success, the membership site is not that somebody joins, it’s that it’s retention, as you said Rory, it’s that they stay for a long period of time. Right? So I guess the first thing I would say is that if you’re looking at different products and considering a membership site, I actually don’t recommend you start with a membership site until you’ve already built a successful flagship program. Like a coaching service or a group coaching program or mastermind and a gateway product, like a low price course or a book or some, or a workshop or some other, you know, those really, those two anchors of the flagship product and the gateway product, they allow you to both bring in new customers on a regular basis, but also be able to create massive transformation in the flagship program at a, at a premium price. What those two things do is not just the revenue piece and the audience growth piece, which they do that, but they also help you refine your understanding of your target customer, their problems, their needs. And the way you sell a membership site versus the way you sell any other product that has a one-time purchase is completely different. Mm. And so it’s, it’s because are are you familiar with the concept of the the Infinite game by any chance? Rory?
RV (08:57):
I mean, you mean Simon Sinek’s book?
JM (09:00):
So Simon Sinek has a book on this, but the concept is not unique to him. But yes, his book
RV (09:04):
Is a great, no, I don’t even know what that, I don’t even know what that book’s about. I, I have read his others, but I’ve not read that book.
JM (09:09):
It’s a phenomenal book. And there are other great resources on this subject, but that’s usually the book I recommend is The Infinite Game by Simon Sinek. But the point of this concept is that essentially that there are finite games. Like for example, what’s your favorite sport, Laurie?
RV (09:24):
The spot here. Oh, we’ll, we’ll go, we’ll go, we’ll go with, we’ll go with soccer. I’m Nashville Soccer Club season two. There we go. So now I’m, now I’m soccer man.
JM (09:32):
There you go. All right. So soccer or football as we call it in Puerto Rico, but that’s a whole other thing.
RV (10:01):
Yep.
JM (10:02):
Most things in life are not finite games. Most things in life that matter are infinite games. Like how do you win at marriage or raising kids or building wealth or growing a business. There’s definitely milestones along the way where you’ve achieved success, but there’s not really a finish line unless you create one arbitrarily that says you’re done. You can’t just say, all right, honey, that was our, that was our winning date night, actually. We’re done, now we’ve won the game. I’m just gonna kind of coast through the rest of this marriage. Like that does not work. I’ve been very for about a decade and I’ve already learned that lesson. So the point of this, the reason why I bring this up is kind of bring this back into products, is that when you sell like a course or a book or even a group coaching program, typically what you’re selling is a finite promise by this thing.
JM (10:50):
You will get this result, right? Like if you join my seven figure school accelerator, my flagship program, the promise is that I’m gonna help you build a personalized playbook to build a seven your seventh Figure school, which is an online education business that generates a million dollars a year from three core products. But I’m also gonna help you scale a flag share product to six figures. That’s a finite promise, right? And then when you sell a book or a course, if the course is how to get a thousand email subscribers, for example, that’s a finite promise. The only way to sell a membership site effectively and grow retention over time is actually to sell an infinite promise. Because baked into it is this idea that it’s ongoing. If I sell you a membership site, it’s like, Hey, just pay $10 a month to join my program and I’m gonna help you lose 20 pounds Immediately your brain kind of got off go, like, gets us like kind of like full break, full stop, and you’re like, wait, what? Lose 20 pounds, then I’ll just cancel the membership. Like why would I e even before you body, you’re already talking yourself out of staying as a member. Mm-Hmm.
RV (11:50):
Mm-Hmm.
JM (11:51):
Interesting. But if instead, and instead I approach that same exact membership and I say it’s $10 a month and as part of this, you’re gonna get access to all of my, all of my training and support to help you to help you build and live like a fit, a fit body and a fit life. Or I like the phrase to transform your I’m, I’m expecting my fourth son in April, so I’m definitely have a dad bought, but I wanna transform my dad bought to a father figure. Like I’ve heard that phrase a couple of times and that stuck with me. Mm-Hmm. Right? That’s, but that’s like, that’s an ongoing thing. That’s an infinite game. And so a key is you have to make an infinite promise. And so that’s, that’s really the first key to retention is really just upfront. You have to be clear on what transformation are you promising.
RV (12:31):
Yeah. I mean that’s in, that’s interesting thought. You know, cuz we’ve like of course our, our core business as you would say is a membership model. I guess we’re really a coaching company, so peop like we, we do coaching and training, but people pay a recurring fee. We don’t charge like an upfront fee. And like, you know, I’ve wrestled with, gosh, it’s so much easier to sell like a course where you go sign up for this, you’re going, we’re gonna teach you this, it’s gonna give you this result and boom is done. Whereas like, you know, we’re selling building an influential personal brand and like that never ends. It gets bigger and bigger, but the game. But sometimes I’ve wondered, should we be selling more terminal points or, you know, checkpoints along the way cuz like, you know, we’ve had 11 clients that have become New York Times or Wall Street Journal bestsellers. We’ve had four clients have Ted talks that have gone viral. We’ve had, we’ve had four clients who have, you know, grown multi seven figures, the, those kinds of things. Where it’s like, so it’s, it’s a fascinating to think about. You’re saying that it’s actually a good thing to align a membership site with more of an infinite promise, something that there’s no finish line.
JM (13:42):
I am, but I’m, but I also want to wanna say that from my experience, it is more difficult to sell some an infinite promise. And you’re probably have seen this with a coaching program like you just said. Like, yeah. And it’d be convenient if we could do, you know, a finite promise. I will say this is not on the membership side necessarily, but in my accelerator program, what I do is I really focus on selling the finite promise of my 90 day program. And then on the back end, it’s like as soon as you achieve those results, it’s like, okay, great, let’s keep working together in a mask line group. And that has an infinite promise attached to it. And so I would, I think there is a way probably to do some sort of hybrid of like taking your coaching services and figure out, okay, is there maybe a 90 day promise or a 30 day promise we could make? And you can see how that affects your conversions. Cuz my hunch is it’ll actually be a lot easier to sell. Cause that’s the thing you can go back and justify to your your bank or your spouse or, or your business partner, whatever, to say like, I’m gonna invest this money and I’m gonna get this result. That’s a finite equation. You can’t really run that math on a program that never ends. And so I Yeah,
RV (14:41):
Yeah, no, I follow, I follow you there. So let’s on the, on the topic of selling membership sites. Yeah. Another thing I want to ask you about is, is about urgency, right? So the, the the the, you know, if you think of like, so many launch models are based on this closed cart idea that’s like, yeah, you, you gotta buy it between this window or else whatever, you lose bonuses or the price goes up or, or, or whatever. When you have a membership, I mean some people keep like our membership is open year round, right? So people can come in anytime, some people only open it for certain windows. Have you seen any like best practices around how to create urgency if you leave it open year round? Do you, do you recommend one way or the other? Like how have you navigated that with mem different types of membership sites?
JM (15:31):
Yeah, it’s totally, I’ve seen done both ways and it’s totally either one’s totally legitimate. I do have my preference in what I do as well as what I’ve, I’ve done that’s done well. And it’s sort of essentially to leverage the urgency factor, especially when you launch the membership site to get your core membership base. Cuz remember, because your membership site does start upside down, you wanna get as quickly as possible to the point where you have enough recurring revenue coming in to offset all the overhead that it takes to run a really good membership site. And I don’t just mean expenses, there’s not a ton of expenses attached to running a membership site. The biggest expense is gonna be your time or your team’s time, depending upon how you’re doing that.
RV (16:09):
Cuz in terms of finite and infinite, that’s the other problem here is when you create a course, you have a finite expense, you create the course and you’re done. When you create a membership site, you have the infinite, the infinite expense
JM (16:22):
JM (17:01):
But my founding membership launch for my membership site, I did the full month of September. And so I, when this is recently, you know, I recently launched my own membership site after doing this for other people enough times that I wanted one my own. But I did that for the full month of September. And so I, throughout that month, I could just emphasize that, hey, this is a founding membership opportunity. A some people are just attracted to the idea of being an early adopter because they know they get to help shape a product. There are plenty of people who are not right. There are plenty of people who say, Nope, I’m not an early adopter, I’m gonna come back when it’s done. But I typically like to reward the early adopters as well by offering a founding membership price. Now with the membership site, I do think you have to be really careful about discounts.
JM (17:39):
They can get really complicated with the exception of when you launch it, when you launch it, you sort of have this one time opportunity to say like, Hey, here’s the normal price of membership and here’s the founding membership price. And my, what I would do here then is actually only offer the founding membership discount on annual membership. And so, for example, thrive School Pro, my membership is a hundred dollars a month or a thousand a year, but during my founding membership launch, it was $500 for the year for founding membership. And so that got a lot of these like highly invested members to join, establish the core foundation of the, of the membership of the group. And so that’s one of the things I would recommend. In terms of urgency beyond that, I do think you need to look at how a membership site fits into your full product strategy.
JM (18:24):
And so yes, urgency self for sure, but a membership site is not about converting someone from being on the fence or not knowing who you are to being, you know, all in a membership is really about nurturing your raving fans, your super fans. And so the gateway product or multiple gateway products, I do think that is a great way to really lean on urgency of having a course or a book or a workshop that’s only available for a short period of time, leaning into that, getting people into that experience. But then it’s much easier, again, for people to buy a product with a finite promise and then be able to like get that experience and choose from then if they want to go further into your membership site. So I, I’m a fan of what you’re doing, Laurie, which is keep your membership open all the time. With the exception of having a founding membership launch I can share a real life example with some numbers. Would that be helpful in terms of like Sure. How these products kinda fit into each other?
RV (19:16):
Yeah,
JM (19:16):
So in September when I knew that I was launching my membership site, at this point, I’d already scaled my flagship product so that it was doing very well. I was funding my lifestyle and I had, you know, I had a bestselling book and another gateway products in the pipeline. Then at this point I did a couple you partner workshops. So I wrote it to my own audience, but I also convert Kit asked me to come teach a workshop to their audience about my seven figure school strategy. So they’re like kind of pro, I had to put a big pause here. They’re proc creators,
RV (19:55):
You do have four kids, so you’re a procreator also.
JM (19:57):
I’m a procreator, I’m a procre and I’m a professional.
RV (19:59):
Yeah, you’re you’re a double a double procreator.
JM (20:02):
I’m a double dipper. Yeah, for sure. But convert side, so I taught this free workshop and then in the workshop I met, I kind of explained this concept of having these three core products, gateway membership with flagship. And then I said, Hey, let me create a gateway product for you live as a demo just to show you how easy this is. So I, of course, I planned this, right? So I created, I opened convert IT commerce, and I created a little order form and I said, okay, here’s the product. It’s called five Figure Flagship Earn $10,000 in the next 30 days from your existing expertise by creating and selling a flagship product. It’s a hundred dollars. And then I put a little image on it, just a slide, and then I dropped a link in that chat and I said, this is for real and it’s for sale and it’s, I’m teaching it live next week.
JM (20:45):
And out of that workshop, there were a little, a little over 300 people there, 35 bought the workshop right then. And so I had made over $3,000 live from that workshop. Who bought that course of the 35 who bought that course? Nine of them in my follow up with them upgraded from $400 to my, my founding membership offer for my membership site. So remember it was, it was $500 a year, but I said, Hey, you already paid a hundred for this course. I’m gonna credit that towards this. This is a campaign just for those people. So nine of them upgraded to my membership site, one of them upgraded to my accelerator program for $10,000. So that one workshop that I taught, that audience of 300 people made me over $20,000 very quickly in terms of when you start looking at recurring revenue and the fact that many of those customers are still in my pipeline. Another one I just noticed just on my membership last week, even though that workshop was several months ago. So this is kind of, that’s just one example, but I think you can see now how the products, the products, the urgency really play into each other. It’s not just the membership site. There really has to be ecosystem.
RV (21:47):
Yeah. So let’s talk about that for a second. Yeah, that, what you’re describing there is like a concept lifetime value, right? Customer lifetime value, L t v, which is what Yeah. You know, very sophisticated digital marketers and people understand that. It’s like, okay, the, the, the whatever, the 35 people that bought you a hundred dollars, but then nine of ’em upgraded from there and then one of ’em upgraded to to $10,000. How do you calculate lifetime value and and how do you utilize that when you’re managing a membership site?
JM (22:27):
Yeah, so I mean, the civil way of calculating left hand value is, it’s easier said than done. You know, first of all, it’s just saying like, how much has someone paid you over time and adding it up. You know, I some of this Stripe, like if you’re using Azure Hanger Pro, they includes some of this data in there. I actually have a custom, you know, I call it a people profits pipeline, essentially a custom CRM or custom way to track my customers. That’s, I built a notion and that tool, basically, I have a, this is a little nerdy, but I have a Zap set up with Zapier that says whenever someone buys something, it automatically updates their lifetime value there. Now, I’ve seen some people do this really well and convert Kit and other email service providers and just having all your data there.
JM (23:09):
But lifetime value is one of the ones that I wanted to pull out, especially because I do have an actual direct outreach sales strategy to sell into my accelerator program. And so it’s not just email marketing funnels, there’s this other piece. But then the other way, the other way to look at it then, of course is to say, okay, but then what’s the average value of a subscriber? Cause if you can look at a campaign like what I just described, and if you can do the math on how many subscribers and what’s the total value, and if you can come up with a dollar value per, like your average quality email subscriber, what they’re worth to you in your business, well then all of it makes it lot easier to decide where to invest deal marketing money. I will say all of that is true, everything I just said, and even though I know how to do all that stuff, I really try not to get distracted by most of that.
JM (23:55):
And I try to keep it super simple for my clients and myself, which is that of those three core products, my gateway product, every dollar that I generate from my gateway product is my sales and marketing budget. And so my goal is not actually to make money from my gateway product, it’s basically to say whether it’s a book or a course or a workshop, when the goal of that gateway product is to create customers not cash. And so when that money comes in, great, that’s what I can use now to either partner with other affiliates and pay commission or to sponsor a newsletter to get featured. I don’t do a lot of paper click ads, but that’s something else you could do with that strategy. And then my, my flagship program is primarily how I fund my lifestyle. And the goal of the membership then is that funds sort of the core infrastructure of your business, your ability to hire, to scale things like that. And so that’s like super simple and any accountants or bookkeepers listen this are, are just like, oh my gosh, how do you put that on a p and l? That’s way too simple and Yep. Skipping all the complicated stuff. Yeah. But I, it really helps. I find when you’re selling these products to think about, especially when you’re starting from scratch, to think about how
RV (24:55):
Do you calculate the value of the email subscriber?
JM (24:59):
Well, I mean, candidly, I don’t, I don’t do that a lot. I mean, technically, yeah, I’ve done this for clients, I’ve done this in the past when I was a, like a full-time fractional chief marketing officer. And so the way you would calculate that essentially is, is look at, look at a period of time. I mean, typically it’s a long period of time. Look at your total revenue and divided by number of subscribers. And you know that the reality is that 80 to 90% of your email subscribers, they never bought anything from you. So they’re obviously gonna throw that math off. But even if you say, okay, wait a minute, a subscriber, a quality target subscriber to me is worth two or $3 when all of a sudden, or maybe $5, now all of a sudden it’s easier to make decisions about how you’re gonna get your leads.
RV (25:39):
Mm-Hmm. Interesting.
JM (25:41):
But I don’t wanna mislead you. I don’t, I don’t do that, all that tracking myself in my business.
RV (25:44):
Yeah, no. Well the, they and I know you’re kind of just in terms of running your own membership site, you’re newer to, newer to that, newer to that party. But it’s really interesting to see you doing that and to hear some of the data of how you’re kind of getting this up and running, which is cool. And so the, talk to me about free trials. So this is another real common thing that I think you, you see, right? Is either a free trial or try it for a dollar for 30 days or seven days. Have you seen those strategies work? Do they work well? Do they work not so well? Do they work only if you do it in a certain way? Like yeah. Tell me about the trial trial period.
JM (26:31):
Well, the reality is, is we’re talking about this right now. Subscription products have been on for a long time. And so the average modern consumer has subscription fatigue. You know, you’ve got Subscri, you’re subscribed to like Netflix and Amazon Prime, and I mean, you know, your utility company, of course that one’s been around for a long time, but you’ve got all these different things that you’re paying for on a regular basis that are the mean that once upon a time you could sell very differently. In the early days of membership sites, there was a lot of like leading with a 30 day trial, getting people in there, they forget about it, now they’re a customer. Well, if the goal of your membership website is to create raving super fans, your goal is not to get people to become a customer by accident, right?
JM (27:14):
So there is a way to use free trials, but I just wanna put that disclaimer in there, that sort of, the way that a lot of people used to do it doesn’t really work anymore, nor do I recommend it. But there’s a, one of my favorite newsletters, I can’t even pronounce it, I think it’s called ari, but it’s academic, it’s an acronym for academic research in your hands, A R I Y H. But he dove into like the, there’s actual studies on pre-trial link. And what they found was that the order trials actually had a higher a higher effect on sales and retention, specifically seven day trials. What they found was if it’s a longer trial, people are nervous that they’re gonna forget it. And so it actually hurts your sales. But also then even if they do forget it, and then it automatically when used, they’re more likely to either cancel asper refund, but a shooter trial gives someone to say, yeah, I’ll try this this week.
JM (28:04):
And so it is a great way to get customers. I what I do is typically I use, I use free trials as an opportunity to introduce urgency to get people from a gateway product to a membership product. So like for example, I don’t do any public free trials, but what I’ll do is say like, Hey, when once you buy a gateway product, like a course, then included in that is a complimentary 30 day membership in Thrive School Pro. And that is essentially a free trial. That’s one way to do it. One of the most profitable ways we grew PLA University was we did have paid ads going to a funnel for a $1 10 day trial. Now, there’s two reasons I love this. One is it’s a short trial, and so people know going into it like, yeah, that’s, that’s realistic. Like, I’m not gonna forget, forget about it. I’m gonna actually give this thing a shot, see if I like it, stick around
RV (28:50):
Or 10 days the second one, 10 day trial.
JM (28:52):
10, yeah, yeah, we did a 10 day. The second thing I like about that is that it’s a dollar. It’s not free. That means there’s actually some money changing hands, but it’s not much. But it also means we’re actually getting real life payment information cuz we’re free trials. People will often put in fake credit, like fake payment information, but the $1 trial, it’s like we actually charge ’em, they have 10 days and then it turns into a regular membership. And that was very effective.
RV (29:17):
Yep. Yeah, that’s, that’s interesting. So I got one other question for you. I knew our time was gonna sort of fly by be before I do that you know, you’ve talked about some of the things, some of the things that you do and teach people in terms of membership site, like specific where should people, where should we send people and connect them if they wanna learn more about what you’re up to? John,
JM (29:40):
Thank you so much for asking Roy. I’m honored to be here and I wanted to share some of this. So I set up a special website just for you, Rory. Nice. It’s Rory loves memberships.com. Rory loves memberships.com. You do love memberships, right?
RV (29:53):
Rory? I do love, I do love memberships. We are okay. We’re, I mean, I think of us as our real, I would say our real expertise is like coaching. That was, you know, we have built an eight figure company before Phoebe Brand Builders group will be our second. But coaching and membership have a lot of similarities. Coaching is less scalable digitally you know, it’s, it’s much more people intensive, but Yes. Yeah, but
JM (30:17):
You’re still a subscription based coaching, which is very similar.
RV (30:20):
We are, yeah. A lot of the, a lot of the mechanics are very much the same. Yep.
JM (30:24):
Yeah, I love that. Yeah. So if you go to rory loves membership.com, you can download a free copy of a book I wrote could always be teaching that goes into this in more detail. But I’m also teaching at works, a live workshop there on turning your wisdom into wealth on how these different products play into each other that we talked about today. How does the Flasher product play to the gateway product play in the membership? Which do you do first? How do you scale them? And so that’s totally free Rory for anybody listening to this. So Rory loves memberships.com.
RV (30:53):
Cool. So we’ll link, we’ll link that up in the show notes and over on our website and everything. So one last question for you, John. One of the things that you guys did at Platform University, which is very, very rare is you sold or in this case Michael sold the membership site. That’s unusual. It’s unusual to see like, you know, people don’t often buy someone other creator’s video course because it’s very much connected to that person. So you guys were able to create an asset that was a brand that was sort of beyond just, just Michael. Obviously Michael was a big part of that, but you know, do you have any keys around scaling a membership beyond just like the original founder or the original brand? And like how do you go about, how do you go about doing that and setting that up? Because when you do that, it actually creates an asset that would be sellable so that, that has enterprise value, which is one of the big potential payoffs compared to Yeah. You know, a course that’s just tied directly to a course creator. How’d you do that?
JM (32:03):
Well, so now you’re tapping into my secret mission because when I was hired by Michael Hya Clocking University, I had a public mission, which is hello meet John Mes. He’s the brand director and dean of PLO University, and he now runs this thing and serves up our students whole time. I actually was a student originally, so it was a cool story of sort of like from Success student to the dean. That was my public title. My secret mission was I was hired to help separate platform university from being attached to Michael Hyatt’s brand to sell. That was explicit from the beginning. And so that was a huge part of, of my job behind the scenes for a long period of time. At this point, we’re talking about a multimillion dollar membership site with its own massive audience separate from Michael Hyatt’s audience. And so because of that, that means like we’re, this was, this was a slow process but it meant looking at the content strategy and finding out, okay, how much of this content is dependent on Michael itself and minimizing that as much as possible.
JM (33:01):
So we switched from having a hamster wheel of live content to creating a core curriculum and then recording all of that in a two day video shoot with guests that we flew in from all over to interview. And then Michael interviewed the guests for those interviews. And actually the, there was 13 interviews and the first and the 13th was actually me. It was sort of like we, Michael and I were in the book ends of like interviewing each other sort of Mm, which helped set me up in that role. But also every single one of those masterclass videos, we then created screening videos. They’d that when in detail on that subject that were, that Michael was never part of. And so we either had other people fly in, sometimes we had members of our team teach them. Sometimes I taught it, but we really just diversified the, the talent pool of who was teaching the content.
JM (33:45):
And then we took off the hamster wheel. Now all of a sudden it was all of our job to run the membership site was, was get new members in, serve the current members direct into the core curriculum and do regular weekly group live q and a coaching calls. And that was really a huge part of the process so that by the time we hired a broker and we were negotiating with different people to who were interested in buying the business, we’d already answered a lot of the questions that people were gonna ask about. Like, but what about Michael? And Michael was like, Michael could honestly say, he was like, I literally haven’t touched Pop University in more than two years and it’s still made over a million a year in revenue. Like that was, he was at that point where I was running the whole thing and he could, I mean, he knew of a financial and all that kinda stuff, but he was not involved in the day to day of that, which is really what convinced ultimately to have multiple people at the table who wanted to buy it. And then Pete Vargas was the one who ultimately struck a deal, bought Platform University and it became his
RV (34:38):
Yeah, wild. What an interesting what a really cool, really, really cool case study. And you know, that’s a, that’s a very unique potential feature of building membership sites. And just, and then giving life to people’s personal brands. Right now, here you are on your own teaching people how to do this, and that’s inside a brand builder’s group. We’ve, we’re, we’re raising up all many personalities. I mean, you were the primary one at Platform University, but like all of our strategists, you know, we’re constantly pushing forward and they genuinely get to know the content better than me because they spend more time in a more specific area and, and they just do it over and over, you know, like a specific area with clients and they, they actually really, really develop. It’s a really, really cool thing and gives life to other people. So I love that. Well, thank you for this, John. Thanks for sharing this, this. Oh,
JM (35:32):
It’s my
RV (35:32):
Pleasure. Really cool stuff, man. Congratulations on starting your Journey, your own membership site. So that’s, that’s fun. We’ll be, we’ll be cheering you on and watching you and wishing for the best my friend. So take care and, and keep going.
JM (35:47):
Thank you, Roy. Please keep up the good work.
Ep 367: Tips For Being a Better Coach | Minal Mehta Episode Recap
AJV (00:02):
So this note is specifically for the coaches out there. I had an awesome podcast interview actually earlier this week with a new friend of mine, Minal. And we got to talking about coaches and the coaching community and the coaching industry as a whole. And there were a few quick takeaways that I thought would be worth to pull out, put ’em in a little condensed version for you right now. But this is for you coaches out there who are out there serving your clients. So here was the question that was asked, what do you think coaches need to know to be better coaches? And I thought the answers were super helpful and pretty tactical, so I’m gonna share ’em with you right now. Number one, be niche, right? Get clear on who you wanna serve, how you wanna serve ’em, and what you’re going to actually do, right?
AJV (00:53):
Being a generalist is not in your best benefit. So niche down, niche down, both on the who, the how, and the what. Like what is it that you actually do coaching on? Who do you do it for and how do you uniquely do it? So it’s niche down in each of those three categories. So that’s the first thing you can actually do to be a better coach, is be more specific, less general, right? There’s a little saying in our house at the vaden household, the more specific, the more terrific, right? And this is a chance that you can be more specific and be more terrific. So niche down on the who, what, and the how of how you serve your clients. All right? That’s number one. Note, note and be honest with yourself, that being a great coach and building a coaching business are two very different things.
AJV (01:45):
The talent and the skills that it takes to be a great coach are often different than the skills that it takes to learn and master of running a great coaching business, right? Being a great coach means that you’ve got tactical experience and expertise that you can help someone with. You’re a great listener. You are a great asker of questions. You have great empathy, you have great accountability. There are so many amazing skills that it takes to be a great coach, but there are also some really important skills
AJV (02:58):
Uniquely different than the skills that it takes to run a coaching business, and definitely different than the ones it’s gonna take to grow and scale one if that’s of your desire. So it’s just to be aware consciously aware of the unique set of skillsets that you need in both areas, both of being a coach and running a coaching business. And if you’re not even sure what those are, then that’s what we at Brand Builders Group, that’s what we do. That’s what we help you with,
AJV (03:45):
E it works either way. I think the first step is just be consciously aware. Those are uniquely different skill sets, and you need ’em both. Okay? Yes. Number two number three is the importance, the importance of organized systems and how important that organization is to the client experience. And this is where there’s a combination of both technology and psychology that’s really important for your practice as a coach, is that there’s a, a component of me where it’s like, man, I, I want access to that recording that we just did on that session. I want access to the raw notes. You said you were gonna put a a list together. I have some action items. Where is it? You were gonna refer me a book, you were gonna send me this. Where is it? There’s a, a process to the organization that improves the experience that makes it easy for me as your client to have a great experience and make positive progress on every single call.
AJV (04:38):
And that’s where technology plays a great role. Automation and just different platforms. But there is a really important part of our role as coaches of staying organized to improve the customer experience so that they can make the progress they need to improve their lives and their businesses. So just the importance of organized systems will make you a better coach, right? Then that kind of lends itself to this question of technology, right? Which is, well, how does technology make the coaching experience better? And there are three simple things. One, it’s consolidation, right? Keeping all of your emails, chats, communication, documentation, recording content material in a a singular place is so helpful when I don’t have to go to a SharePoint drive and an email and a text thread and an L m s, I’m only saying those things because we have these same struggles, right? But the consolidation, if I go to one place to find all my stuff, then that’s so helpful to me. It allows me to be a better client by saying, organize so I don’t bug you the coach all the time. So it’s in your benefit too, as the coach. It’s like the more that you can consolidate, it’s like your life is gonna be more streamlined because your clients’ lives are more streamlined. So consolidation is a
AJV (05:56):
Major perk and benefit of technology. The second thing, it’s simplicity, right? Finding technology platforms that are simple they don’t have to be robust and complicated. They just need to work. So finding a technology platform that actually is easy to use, simple to use, right? Has basic trainings already available out there. So you’re not the person to conduct in inform, instruct and teach everyone how to use this, right? But the, just having something that is simple and easy to use, and there’s already a well known process, right? So easy user interface is a part of that. If I log in and can’t figure out how to do it, it’s not a good platform, right? So as you go through it of going, Hey, how long did it take you to learn it? And just double that or triple that for each of your clients, right?
AJV (06:44):
So pick technology that is simple. And then the third thing about technology and how we can use technology to create better experiences with our coaching community is community. It’s connection, right? So use technology to actually amplify the community component, which makes your clients have a better coaching experience. So how can you use technology to better create the connection within all of your different clients, or even if it’s just you and your client? That could be something as simple as having a Slack channel for all of your clients. That could be having a private group of some sort, a private community group somewhere. Maybe it’s hosting unique group calls that you just do over some sort of, you know, webinar or virtual meeting. I’m, I’m trying to stay technology agnostic right now and not mention any technologies because I think there’s pros and cons to all of them.
AJV (07:41):
But it’s just finding ways to use technology to increase connection, not decrease connection, right? And that can happen too. Like one of the things that I’ll do to keep this completely technology agnostic is that I just make video messages. I make videos or even audio messages and send those to my client, right? Just seeing the face means a great deal. So instead of sending a text, make a quick video message or an audio message versus sending an email or sending a text, really simple increases that connection point in that community. And so there’s some things that you can do right now to increase the community experience, the coaching experience by using technology and at the same time making your life and your business easier and the process. So you coaches out there, you’re doing awesome. I so admire what you do. I, I, you are who I am meant to serve. Keep doing what you’re doing and let us help it make just a little bit easier for you. So keep on coming, we’ll see you next time.
Ep 366: How Coaches Can Use Technology to Scale with Minal Mehta
AJV (00:00):
Welcome to our latest episode on the Influential Personal Brand podcast. This is AJ Vaden here, one of your co-hosts. And I am uniquely excited about today’s interview because we have really chosen to do a super selective conversation, really built for the coach community that’s a part of our audience. So coaches, speakers, consultants, authors, trainers, like we serve all of you. But this is like really built for this unique piece of our audience that is growing and growing and growing. And it was a decided choice to do this. So if you are a coach, this is for you. So don’t tune out. Like this is the time to like double down and tune in because this is really built to help you be a better coach, better serve your clients, and do it in the most effective and efficient way possible, using some awesome technology.
AJV (01:03):
So that is what this is about. That is why you should stick around. Now, you should want to know who’s going to be talking about all this awesome stuff because it’s not me,
AJV (01:52):
But Minal has also worked at so many of the powerhouse platforms and tech companies from Amazon to YouTube to LinkedIn. There’s so much, so much wisdom and smarts. She’s just really smart behind this conversation. But then made it, she made a decided decision to tailor to this unique coaching community, develop her own technology, which is what we’re doing right now. And really why, like why did we, why did you decide to do that? And how is it gonna benefit so many people in this coaching community? So I can go on and on and on, honestly, cause I think there’s so many awesome things that I have learned about you and this technology and why you do it. And I love the heart behind it as much as I love the technology itself. So, without further ado, Manal, welcome to the show.
MM (02:42):
Thank you, aj. I’ve really enjoyed meeting you. I enjoyed your mission and I’m really excited for this conversation.
AJV (02:51):
Oh, this is gonna be so awesome. So here’s where I wanna start, is I wanna just talk about the rise of the coach, right? We are in an era where in our last conversation I shared this like statistic that I just stumbled across. Like if you just go and do a super, a, a simple LinkedIn search and you just type in coach, right? There is over, I think 1.2 something million people just on LinkedIn mm-hmm.
MM (03:52):
Awesome. And I think there’s just so many things that have come together to make this happen. So, on one hand, all of us just lived through one of the craziest fla swan events in our time. The pandemic and mental health became an imperative. And as we thought about our mental health, we started going deeper into who we are, what we care about, how we show up in this world. And there’s no better person to take you on this journey than a coach who’s been there, done that, been in your shoes, gone on that journey before you, it is tailored and targeted for you. And so I do believe that people are really excited about working with very specific coaches in this moment in a way that’s never happened before. We’re all very open to both taking care of our mental health, but also really going deep and understanding who we are and showing up in the way we want to show up because mm-hmm.
AJV (04:52):
No, go ahead. I’ll, I’ll reserve my thought for a second.
MM (04:54):
I was gonna say, then on the other hand, people who went on this inner journey realized that they also wanna be entrepreneurs. That, you know, the era of being an employee I think is also changing. You know, I myself was an employee, as you mentioned, I worked at Google and YouTube and LinkedIn, and here I am an entrepreneur. Because I do think people are looking deep inside themselves and, and trying to figure out what kind of life they wanna live. And many people are choosing the route of becoming an entrepreneur. Many people are being called to serve and share their knowledge and their wisdom with other people. And I think, like no other time before, both of these trends are happening at the same time. So we’re in this like precious moment where people need the services of coaches, coaches are being called to serve. Many coaches use the services of other coaches because it’s so interconnected and we all believe in our own growth and the growth of the planet at the same time. So we’re in this unique moment where everything is building on each other. And as you said, this is the moment the rise of the coach. It’s happening.
AJV (06:02):
Yeah. You know, it’s, it’s so interesting because I hadn’t like quite connected the parallel of, you know, the rise of this coaching industry with this rise of the entrepreneur community, right? Mm-Hmm.
MM (06:32):
I think those are very intertwined because I do think a lot of people are also realizing the expertise they have to offer. And it’s a great way to get started on building out a business that is uniquely you, right? If you go back to owning who you are and being who you are, and showing up in this world in your truest, most authentic form, then there’s no better way to do it than coaching because you, you are your business and your business is you. So I do think people are choosing to live the life that they want, and many are saying, I’ll become a digital nomad. I’ll become a consultant, all of that stuff. But I do think being a coach and serving global audiences from the comfort of your computer is something that is appealing to a lot of different people right now.
AJV (07:15):
Yeah. That’s, that’s such a great insight. I hadn’t quite connected those two until you said that. And, you know, you said something else that made me think about this. And you know, I have been in the coaching, speaking, training, consulting world for a significantly long time compared to how old I am,
AJV (07:59):
And I was like, no, no, I mean, I’m a coach and a consultant. And they’re like, like, you actually do that. And I remember like, I remember just hearing that and there was like such a assumed insignificant component of that. And then you fast forward to today, and I don’t know anyone who doesn’t have a coach mm-hmm.
MM (09:01):
Mm-Hmm.
MM (09:48):
Because that is their unique edge. So that’s like table stakes. I know a lot of coaches work on that. I think the second thing that I’ve realized is being part of this, this movement almost at this point in this industry and this community, as you’ve said, is that there’s a difference between coaching and building a coaching business. And I don’t think people realize
MM (10:41):
Like, how do you run your business? That’s like number one, there’s a skillset set to building a business, right? I’ve spoken to so many coaches who are like, well, can you just market us? And I’m like, no, because you are serving your niche audience. You need to speak to your audience. I cannot speak to your audience for you. So you have to learn how to market yourself and how to sell your services. So like, you’ve gotta learn how to build that business, right? So that skillset in addition to the coaching work that you do, and then of course, there’s the tool set as a client of many coaches, I will admit the level of service varies not so much because the coaches are better or worse. Like most coaches I’ve worked with are excellent, but just the way they deliver their coaching is so different.
MM (11:26):
Like, I, I mean, I feel like I’ve gone through coaching programs where they’re like, here’s a zoom link. Oh, and the calendar invite is sent. People are scrambling to find the zoom link to meet after the zoom link. Where’s the recording? I can’t find the recording. Did someone take notes from that previous session that I can lean into? Where do I register for the next thing if I need to subscribe for your ongoing community? I don’t know where to find it. And like so much of my my experience as a client sucks because of the way you choose the tools, right? To, to kind of share your coaching expertise with the world. And so that’s your tool set. Like how do you actually create the right tool set to be able to build out your coaching business? So I think like anyone embarking on this journey today and say, find your niche audience and then make sure you do the work and your mindset, your skillset and your tool set to, to reach where you wanna reach.
AJV (12:24):
Yeah. I think that’s, that third thing is probably, probably the most common thing that I hear. It’s like, I love them and it’s like the content is great and they help me, but, but man, it’s like it’s a cluster. Mm-Hmm.
MM (13:00):
Yes, exactly.
AJV (13:02):
Exactly. those are, that’s really helpful and insightful specifically for all of you coaches who are listening of going, man, it’s like, do you have the organized systems to put all the pieces together to make it easy and consolidated mm-hmm.
MM (13:58):
Yeah. So I’m gonna take a little bit of a journey here with all of you. So I have a degree in computer science. I believe in the power of technology, right? Technology is my friend. I’m a technologist at heart. And the journey that I’ve gone on is a long journey and a short journey all at the same time. But I will start my journey almost from well after college. I, I worked at Amazon for a brief period of time.
AJV (14:23):
Well, you’re also being super humble right now. It’s not that you just went to college and got computer science degrees. It’s like you have a computer science degree from Stanford. Mm-Hmm.
MM (14:41):
That’s true. I will share the details. Thank you AJ, for helping me out here. So I have a computer science degree from Stanford. I actually came into Stanford thinking I was gonna be pre-med. I came from India. I chose Stanford because they gave me the most financial aid. I actually had no idea what Stanford really was. This was back in the day. And I came in 1999 and they gave me more money than anyone else. I’m like, I’ll try it out. And it was literally one of the best happy coincidences of my life. And I think that just taught me, right? Like, things show up in front of you and it’s up to you what you do with them. And I was very lucky to go to Stanford. I was very lucky to discover computer science at that period of time, right? The.Com era and all of that, and the power of technology and where technology can be used for good.
MM (15:22):
I then went and worked at Amazon where I, for those of you who you who used Amazon in sort of like the 2005 to 2010 timeframe, like everything before that buy button on the product detail page was managed by my team. So I’ve touched search on the product page and the homepage for a brief period of time. Navigation, I changed multiple times. And so I truly love making life easier for users online because I do believe in the power of technology. But when you think about how a user interacts, it marries, you know, technology, psychology, like our own feelings as we interact our own needs as we’re solving the problems. There’s like this very interesting moment that comes together when you deliver an interface to a user. So that was Amazon. I then went to business school. I went to Harvard as you mentioned, aj, and that was also a turning point in my life.
MM (16:18):
I, as part of my time at hvs, I really got involved in the career, the career community out there, the career center, like I was part of that. I led various programs for that. And so I don’t even think we’ve talked about this, but a couple years later I reached out to HBS and I’m saying, I said, you need to hire me as a coach. And they said, you are 25 years younger than any other coach we have on staff, right? Like, just go back to that time
MM (16:59):
So you need me, I’m a product manager. I guarantee you 30% of MBAs are gonna try to be pro product managers in the next five years. And so they said, yeah, you’re right. Like we’ve looked at the data
MM (17:45):
So I joined LinkedIn, and at LinkedIn I managed all of LinkedIn groups and LinkedIn messaging. So any member to member communication anything that had to do with building community like that was my area that I worked on. And you know, I think we’ve, we’ll talk a little bit about the power of community, but community is so important to all of us. And yet finding and building the right online community is really, really, really, really hard. And I got to learn a lot about that. Working on LinkedIn groups, the incentives that work, the incentives that didn’t work, all of that. From there, I went to Google. And at Google I worked on a different segment for, for the, you know, five years that I was there. Between Google and YouTube, I worked on what they called the next billion users, which is all of the high growth emerging markets.
MM (18:30):
So people who are rapidly coming online, getting their first mobile phone, don’t know what to do with the data, and how do we give them the best introduction to the internet possible. Because, you know, like these are literally baby internet people coming online. Never. Like we, we’ve been in the internet, we’ve been in the internet for like, you know, 15, 20 years by that point. And you talk about somebody like jumping in in this moment. Yeah. And how do we transition them online? So really got to understand the needs of these users. And at YouTube especially, it is the largest segment of users, the fastest growing segment of users and really understanding all of their needs and helping them with that. And all of this ties together because I was doing the career coaching at hbs. I was going through my own journey of inner growth.
MM (19:19):
Everybody has that moment. I think every coach has that moment that they deal with where they just go deep inside themselves and like turn themselves inside out and like, push forward. And all of this was happening as I was working on the next billion users. I had two kids around that time. It broke me in ways I didn’t expect it would break me cuz I have an incredibly supportive spouse. But it was a shift in identity, a shift in how I worked, a shift in how people treated me. And I found myself yeah, like really doing the inner work to stay true to me. It was hard work to just stay true to me when I worked in like from the outside, some of the best environments in the world, right? You work at Google, that’s incredible. Like, you know, 1% of 1% of people get into Google or whatever it is, right? Like, this is even harder than getting into HBS or Stanford. Like how can you complain about that? But there was a moment where I was like working so hard to keep the balance between the internal and the external. So pandemic happened early in 2021. I decided there was time for a change and I decided that I should go into coaching full-time. And I actually started this YouTube channel that no one can find right now. But I still my
MM (20:36):
But the, but what was happening is all these women were breaking around me. 2 million women left the workforce during the pandemic in the US alone. And my friends came to me and they said, all I think about all day is, is this all there is to life? I put my kid in front of Zoom school, I cook lunch for them, I take care of them. I’m working, I’m working harder than ever before. People are expecting more from me at work. I have no time for me. Is this all there is to life? Highly educated, you know, very lucky women, like high achievers, very smart, very lucky women. Like is this all theirs to life? And they said like, you, you don’t seem to be breaking. Why is that? And I said, well that’s because I did my breaking and I did my rebuilding and I have like my center.
MM (21:22):
And they’re like, well, you should teach that. And so that’s what my YouTube channel in some ways started being about. And I wanted to become a coach to really help burnt out women in tech really find their center and their joy. And this will become relevant soon. But I wanted to do that. I started creating this content and then as I started doing it, the technologist in me reared its head again and said like, you are a coach for one type of person. There’s a coach for everyone. How can you use your skillset and tool set to make that happen? And that’s how all takes was really born, right? Like every coach should be able to connect with their clients deeply in an organized way, in a connected way, in a loving way, and really help them transform. And I wanted to make that happen. And and that’s the, the platform that you said today. I
AJV (22:10):
Mean, it’s like, this is why I wanted you to tell the story for anyone who is listening is, I think so often technology can be built, not, not from this standpoint, not from this usage standpoint and or not just technology, but businesses, right? Mm-Hmm.
MM (23:05):
Exactly. Exactly. And I find actually a lot of coaches use that as an excuse to not grow their business.
MM (23:12):
AJV (24:09):
MM (24:11):
But like at a point where you need to hire a designer and a developer to take care of a software that is supposed to be quote unquote easy to use. So that, like I’ve heard coaches say, I have no profit because that’s what I’m doing. And I’m like, what is going on? This is not where you should be spending your time Definitely at all. Or your money. Like yes. Like you can always do with a little bit of help, but like, you shouldn’t be paying somebody a full-time salary to manage your technology stack
AJV (24:40):
The basics. Yeah. You know, there’s a, a level of this that we would say it’s, it’s what we would call creative avoidance. Mm-Hmm.
AJV (24:48):
We do, we do the work that needs to be done instead of the significant work that must be done. Or it’s a level of priority dilution. Mm-Hmm.
AJV (25:49):
I would set up the zoom link, put it in there, I would then have to set up a Word doc where I kept some coaching nuts and I would probably keep that Dropbox. Then when I did the Zoom, I would then have to download this link because they client wanted the recording and then I would have to store it somewhere on this Word doc because they would often lose it because I sent it in an email. And then I would have to keep track of this word doc and this thing, and then I’d have to keep all of the notes. And then they didn’t want the notes in an email. They wanted those in a consolidated document, but they wanted me to email that consolidated document every single time. So it was the top of their inbox. And that’s just a part of the list, right?
AJV (26:27):
And so you kind of go like, whoa, the amount of administrative operational work that it takes to even do one call is quite extraordinary. And that doesn’t even count if they reschedule last minute or cancel, but still wanna do it and on and on and on. I know that those, those of you listening can relate to some of that because I know you do it. I know some of you and I know you’re doing it. And there’s a better way. There is an easier way. So before we talk about all takes and the awesomeness that you have built and that you’re launching out into the world, I’d love to talk just about like how does technology or how can technology, and this is, you can talk about, I’ll take specifically here, but how can it actually make the coaching experience better for the coach and the client?
MM (27:15):
Yes, absolutely. And I think technology is a tool, right? Like, I know I’ve heard from many coaches that they just wanna throw their laptop out the window when they’re dealing with technology
MM (28:11):
So that’s the first level because as a coach, we are all growing. Many coaches start out one-on-ones, but then they do groups like whatever it is that you’re doing, you want a platform that can handle all the things that you wanna do. The second thing I would say is then in the doing of those things, it needs to be really easy to set things up because if it’s not like then you’re going back to exactly what AJ described, right? Like that creative avoidance of like setting up your technology so it works perfectly and then feeling really good about you got that done, but you didn’t actually move the needle forward for your business. And so having something that you can do really easily to set up any of these modalities, in fact, the sign of truly great technology is that it all feels so familiar regardless of what you do.
MM (28:52):
And I think this is where all takes shines and where some of our, the other coaching platforms out there, it’s like depending on if you’re doing a community or if you’re doing a group, like the user interface is completely different. It feels like everything has just been tacked on and so you don’t know how to use it. And then you get to your clients, most of you probably have repeat clients, like they come to you for a webinar and then they join you for a group or they join you for a subscription and they need to relearn the language of the thing every single time. And so giving them a super, super sim simple language to start with, and then keeping that, that language of the website really consistent for them can go a long way in making sure, sure. Making sure that they engage with you.
MM (29:34):
And then the thing that is the [inaudible] the the icing on the cake is can you build connection online? You know, over and over again. Like people, coaches are like, I wanna live anywhere. I wanna work from my laptop. I want to meet my clients wherever they are. But I miss those days where I could see them in person, where we could talk to each other in a conference room when we could go for a walk with each other. And there’s something about that connection that’s really important. And I don’t, having worked on communities for a large part of my career, I don’t know that being online can fully replicate that energy exchange that happens in person, but at all takes, that is one of our guiding stars, is how can we make this online experience feel as real worldly as possible? And so if you see, if you’re watching this, you’ll see that we live in a white background, not a a dark background, right? Because when you’re sitting in a room, you’re sitting in a clean, well lit space talking to a person not in a dark room where it’s like, actually that would scare me if I was sitting in a dark room with a group of people
MM (30:40):
You know? But you don’t, you don’t think about that when you’re there and then you leave zoom feeling, oh my gosh, like I’m feeling a little down, a little depressed. Yeah, you’ve been sitting in a freaking dark room, it makes no sense that you’re sitting in that dark room. So something as simple as that. Like other things are like, we have these like expressions that we share. We have this hard expression that I’m sharing this confetti. We’re building more, if there is more than just the two of us, like at all takes you sit in a round table and have a conversation. And I say that my kids sit in circle time. They’ve sat in circle time since they were two years old. There’s something about sitting in a circle that calms our nervous systems down. We understand it, we get it. And so that combination of the expressions, being able to emote with other human beings and sitting in a circle where, you know, where every person is sitting like people are really vulnerable and open in those settings, which is exactly what you want to build real world connection online, right?
MM (31:35):
So I think technology can be used in a, a variety of ways to not only make your life easier, but to make that connection with your client or client stronger. And then if you have a group, then even making the connection between your clients stronger, because that is a whole another level of unlock that you can, you know, you and your clients can experience. So I’ve spoken a lot about all takes, but I do think like those are the things like great ease of use for the coach, ease of use for the client, one place to do everything. Don’t manage your technology everywhere. Connection, connection, connection. Super important. And okay, my connection is unstable. I don’t know AJ if you can hear me. Let’s see. All right. I’m gonna hope we come back. Okay. So
AJV (32:24):
I, you pick it up where you said I, I’ve talked a lot about all takes, but
MM (32:29):
I think Yes, yes. So I’ve talked a lot about all takes, but I think really like the, the things you’re looking for in your technology are ease of use, ease of view, ease of use for you, for your client. One place to do everything. Not like, you know, 50 different softwares that you have to use and pay for by the way to do all the things that you need to do for connection, building that connection with your clients, even though you live in this world that is very like all over the place right now. And the last, last, last, last bit I’ll add because I do believe in the power of community is having a community of people that can help you. Because one of, one of the things I’ve heard from a lot of our coaches is that they feel very alone as they start their businesses. And I think with the brand builders group, aj, you guys are building a community of coaches that can go through this together. But you know, any platform that can give you the right community of people who believe that all boats rise at the same time, let’s help each other to make this happen, I think is really critical as part of this journey.
AJV (33:33):
I, I mean I think there’s all of that is so true and accurate and I would just say as someone who is using a bunch of different technologies right now as we try to consolidate, right? I think that’s like one of the big benefits that I have seen in all takes is it’s the consolidation of lots of different things that you’re using manually mm-hmm.
AJV (34:25):
Wow. Then we create a client playlist in YouTube for every, a private playlist for every single client that we have, 600 playlists for every single client so that we’re not just recording something once and then letting it drift off into the, you know internet. But it’s a, we, we, we keep those for us, for to review for training for our team, but for the client and the coach. So it’s like even us at this stage of going, we’re trying to consolidate all of this, and that’s the nice thing. And I can only show, I will share this on my behalf of going, like, our team has been on the hunt for like, how do we make this easier mm-hmm.
AJV (35:14):
And it’s how do we consolidate conversations? I e chats. So not everything is going back and forth in email all the time because that’s exhausting. We have enough emails, we don’t need more emails. Mm-Hmm.
MM (36:13):
Yeah. So I think all takes is gonna actually do with all the things that we talked about, right? And I’d say that we are in, we are like our coaches in the state of permanent growth. And so one of the things actually before I even go into the specifics is I will say that we are such believers in what all our coaches are doing, that if you give us feedback, you’ll see oftentimes that the platform is implementing that within the next few weeks. And so, like one of the things we look for is in our coaches is people who are actually willing to give us the feedback and build the platform that they want, right? So I’ll start with that as one of our key principles. But if you are a coach the way you would use all takes is you would come and we’d create for you what we call your business page.
MM (36:55):
It’s one place where all of your offers can be consolidated in one single place. Your offers can be one-on-ones with you know, with as many clients as you have. Each client has its own space. It can be a group offer that you have multiple group offers that you have. It could be webinars, it could be courses. No matter what you’re doing, you have a business page where all of these offers can live. Each offer can be public so visible on your business page or unlisted. So if I’m doing, you know, AJ’s coaching me and we have a one-on-one relationship and we have a space that only she and I can access with our playlists and our recordings and our chats and everything, that can be unlisted. So no one else can find it. She and I can find it and everything we have lives there, but no one else ever needs to see it or find it unless we share the link with that person. And so you can create any type of offer when you go into each specific offer. First of all, your clients can register for an offer directly from our website, so no more Eventbrite plus Zoom, which some of our coaches use, which is really weird cuz Eventbrite wasn’t meant for this use case, right? Event freight is great for, I’m organizing a meetup and I need to sell tickets, but not, not a
MM (38:06):
Coaching call. Not a coaching call, but a lot of our coaches I’m hearing use Eventbrite to manage their registration. So with all takes with any of your offers, the registration page is super simple. The client has all the information they need, images, videos, if you have videos when any meetings are gonna take place, the description of the offer register button, when they register, they can pay directly through all takes. And so you don’t have to build a separate payment processing thing out there. Once they are registered, they then get reminders for when their various meetings are happening, so you don’t have to send out reminders, right? And then once they register, they get into that space, that locked room that only people who’ve registered for that locked room have access to. And that locked room has three key components, which we believe actually constitutes the majority of coaching.
MM (38:56):
You have your live sessions, you have any content that needs to be shared between coach and client or clients. And then you have the conversation history that happens between coach and clients. And it’s really simple. There’s three sections. Anytime people need to attend a live session, they go to the live session area, they click on it, they’re in this round table. Anytime they wanna see content, it’s right in that content section, whether it’s like agenda or recordings, course content or anything in between. And then any conversation that has been had in that community is in that chat section. And so not only is there one space, just like imagine like if, if we had a coaching group meets at, I don’t know, green Library room 1 0 5, and we all end up there and all the information about all of our coaching is stored there, that is the feeling you get when you come into one of our, our spaces.
MM (39:46):
But that space, unlike, you know, green Library 1 0 5, like stays with you. So anyone who has access to that space has access to that space forever. And so your your clients aj, who want access to that playlist six months down the road, like they know exactly where to go to find it. And there is no email back and forth. It was just the space that we shared that has the memory of everything that’s happened. And so I think that’s where technology can be used for good, right? Like the real world is great to build connection, but to like have that history privately because I think the world has also gone too far in terms of what is shared publicly. Like that’s, that’s basically what all takes is. And I think we have a community of like-minded coaches that are helping each other learn and grow while while they use these tools and really grow their coaching businesses.
AJV (40:34):
Yeah, I think that’s like the, like I think that’s like a huge part of this. It’s where technology can really be such a super beneficial asset to you is going, technology’s never gonna replace the human element mm-hmm.
AJV (41:27):
And it’s like at some point you’re going, I’m tired
AJV (42:16):
I can think of ones that do lots of these things individually mm-hmm.
AJV (43:07):
But I don’t, I’m doing this because genuinely it’s like our, I’ve had our team request, like formal demos in addition to our conversations. It’s like we need tools that allow us to do better work and this is a tool that could really help you. So go to all takes.com, request a demo and check out the work. Now I will say, and I’m watching the time cuz we only have a couple of minutes left, there is something else that you’re doing right now that is also pretty cool. And before we bounce, because this is like so timely to when this is all happening, I want you to tell people what you are
MM (43:41):
Doing. Okay? So we are doing something really fun and a little bit scary for me. So
MM (44:25):
So we’re doing this thing called the Making of a Coach challenge and our head of sales and you know, she’s also sales marketing and mindset coach. Her name is Mary Diaz, is gonna coach me into becoming a coach. We’re going to do our coaching calls on this platform live. We will share it with everybody. We will share my mindset shifts in addition to the tool set and skillset shifts that need to happen. And within eight sessions or 30 days, we expect the coaches that go on this journey with us and do the work to be able to enroll paying clients. And whether it’s a workshop or a cohort or one-on-one, whatever it is that you wanna do, like we’ll, we’ll guide you on that journey to making this happen. And you’ll get to see me do it with you and in front of you and share with you like how I’m feeling.
MM (45:12):
Cuz this journey is one of like great grit. And the, the more you can have the tools, the technology tools of course, but also the mindset tools to make this happen and the community that pushes you forward, that that’s something that can only be a superpower that you have. So sign up for the making of a code challenge. If you go to all takes.com, there’s a banner up top click on that banner, there’s a landing page with all the information. You click yes I want in and I’ll take you down that process. We’re looking forward to welcoming the right people with open arms on the other end and holding you and supporting you as you build out this business that you’ve always dreamt of building.
AJV (45:55):
Yeah. And I would just encourage that because this episode was really designed to tailor and to reach the coach community that’s a part of our audience. And doing this life, this thing called life. We were not meant to do it alone, right? And this is a great opportunity to come alongside other people who are doing what you are doing or what you wanna do and be a part of the evolution of what does this look like and how do I come along and be a part of this journey with a group of people who are doing what I do or doing what I wanna do. So highly encourage what a cool thing to get to be a first, you know, kinda like a firsthand seat too. And also get to do the work too, right? It’s what really creates this really awesome engagement and starts to build some really amazing community, which we all do need, we all need.
AJV (46:47):
And there’s additional competition here. There’s enough for us all. So come along for the ride. That’s what this is all about. So I’ll put all the links in the show notes. So you’ve got different ways to connect, but thank you so much for coming on and one, just the background and the wisdom and the experience you have. Like we didn’t even scratch the surface of all the things that you could be talking about. Because at the end of the day, this all has culminated in this awesome thing that you’re doing right now for a really unique group of people that we happen to get the privilege to serve. And this is an awesome platform with major benefits to everyone’s involved. So I’ll do one last call to action. Go check out all takes.com, request the demo, see if it’s a fit for you. And Manal, thank you so much. We are so honored to have you on the show and I cannot wait to talk to you again soon, everybody else. I love ya. We’ll catch you next time on the influential personal brand.
MM (47:47):
Thank you aj. Okay. All right. I’m gonna stop the recording and I will, yeah.
Ep 365: How An App Helps You Build Community | Amanda Moriuchi Episode Recap
AJV (00:03):
So I’ve got a question for you. How good are you at building and nurturing your own community? And I think that’s a really relevant question to at least me. As you know, I sit as c e o, which is, you know, more like I just do all the things. Other people don’t have time for more than anything fancy. But as I sit as the c e o of Brand Builders Group this is just a question I ask myself all the time. It’s like our number one priority is to build and nurture deep, meaningful relationships with our community. And our team is always asking, how do we do that? And then how do we do it better? How do we do it more efficiently? How do we build community and nurture them faster in the way that they want? And that led to a, a conversation with a friend of mine, Amanda Moriuchi, who also happens to be a client at Brand Builders Group, which was even more helpful and insightful.
AJV (01:01):
And she happens to be the owner of this really cool custom app company. They build apps called app. And it led to this often conversation around how we use technology to deepen relationships and nurture relationships. And let me say, without going any further, I believe deeply in the importance of one-on-one human interaction on a phone call or in person over coffee. And I also know that there’s just so many minutes in the day. And so to be able to supplement some of that nurturing and some of that community building with technology is just, it’s where we are and there’s components that are really good and healthy and some that are kind of exhausting and overwhelming. So I’m gonna focus on the good and healthy ones. So I thought this was a really great question to go and how do we use technology to increase our relationships with our community as a company?
AJV (02:00):
And so there’s a couple of things I thought were just really noteworthy in this conversation that I would share in this little video with you. So number one is having an app is really what this conversation is about. It’s taking your relationship building off of social media and putting it into a platform that is yours. And in this particular conversation, we’re talking about an app that could also be in an email list. But I think the interactive nature of all the things that are happening in app make it really diverse and unique. Whereas an email list is, that’s an email list. But not to negate that, but this is specifically about how do we use apps to deepen relationships and sit, here’s some of the benefits that came out of this conversation of having an app. One is you own your audience, and that was, that is a number one priority for asset Brand Builders group is we can’t expect that the algorithm is always going to be on our, in our favor on other people’s
AJV (02:58):
Platforms. So, you know, regardless if it’s YouTube or Instagram or Facebook or Twitter or LinkedIn, it, it doesn’t matter. It’s, we don’t own those audiences. We don’t own that platform. We don’t own that content, even though it’s our content, it’s on their platform. And so to be at the mercy of that is a little
AJV (03:43):
Two is technology is really leveling the playing field. And right now it’s, if I have a small audience with not tons of engagement, I’m not favored on social media, but in my own community where it, although I may have fewer followers, they’re deeper loyal followers, I have more opportunity to even go deeper and broaden those relationships when it’s in my control. So there’s a lot of benefit of having all of your audience or ha giving them the opportunity to have more of you, and thus you get more of them in this technology, you know, component that we’re talking about with an app, right? So it, it levels the playing field and let the small guys, the small gals have more opportunity to have deeper engagement and more access to our community and vice versa. So I think that’s really important.
AJV (04:32):
It’s the difference. The next thing is the difference between community and connection on social media. And I’m not slamming our dog and social media right now. It seems like a, a comparison and a little, a little comparison, but I’m not dogging. I think social media is really important, don’t get me wrong here, but there’s a lot of connection on social media, but not a lot of deep community is being built on social media. And so again, whether it’s your email list, podcast, whatever, but for me, it’s this idea of an app that allows you to create real community where there’s back and forth chats and there’s notifications and there’s internal challenges that you’re not paying for. It’s like you’re getting unique content just for you. You’re getting correspondence. You’re, you’re getting videos, you’re getting all this different stuff all in one platform that is actually you’re subscribing to, you’re saying, give this to me.
AJV (05:23):
I want this. And it allows the person who is managing the community to tailor and augment and make it better for the people who are saying, I want more of this, and just creates more community. It creates a like-minded group of people who are going, this is what I want, more of this, less of this. And they’re asking for it, which is hence why they’re on the app, right? So there’s just a lot of opportunity to build more community versus connection which happens on social media. The next is talking about a, a simple way of taking all of your content as a content creator and having it on one place. So with an app, it’s like, I can have my podcast there, I can have virtual trainings there. I can have live events there. I can have community correspondence and interactions video engagement, eBooks, challenges, the list goes on and on and on.
AJV (06:16):
And I’m not having to send some people to this funnel, some people to my website, some over here to iTunes. It’s like, no, no, no, I’m gonna take everything that I’m doing and I’m gonna consolidate it, condense it into one awesome platform that allows you to have everything you want in one place at your fingertips that has just been a game changer of a conversation of how do we do all these things and do it effectively while also keeping in place the integrity of the relationship with the individual. And so as you’re kind of thinking through your strategies for the year and in the years to come, I would just encourage you to think about three things as you listen to this rant on the importance of building community, not just on social media would be one what are you doing to own your audience?
AJV (07:08):
What are you doing to take back control of the engagement, interaction and correspondence that you have with people who subscribe to you, right? In other words, they follow you, like you engage with you. That’s number one. What are you doing to own it? Versus having everything that you’ve built on somebody else’s platform, which is rented real estate. So how can you own those, that audience engagement? Second thing is, how can you consolidate? How can you put everything that you’re doing online and put it into a centralized place where people have a go-to place to get all the things right? Workbooks, downloads, video, content, engagements events, whatever it is you’re doing, webinars. But how can they just get everything into one place to create a better member community experience? So that’d be the second. First one is how do you own your engagement?
AJV (07:59):
Number two is how do you consolidate your engagement? And then the third one is, how do you actually create better deeper community, right? And that just means you’ve got more time with people a huge part of community and relationships. It just takes time. So how are you doing that? How are you creating, you know, better and deeper relationships within the community? And that doesn’t mean just you and one-on-one to your community, but creating them amongst your community and how are you gonna do that? And so the app is not the answer for everyone. The app is the obvious answer for us at Brain Builders Group and what we’re moving ahead with. But I would just pose those questions for you to go back and sit with and think about of how can I do more of this? How can I own it, consolidate it, and make it better and deeper for the people that subscribe to what I have to say and what I have to share. So with that, you have your homework assignments speed
Ep 364: How To Know When You Are Ready For An App with Amanda Moriuchi
AJV (00:02):
Hi everybody, and welcome to another episode on the Influential Personal Brand podcast AJ Vaden here, and I am with a very good friend of mine, Amanda Moriuchi. And today is always exciting to me whenever I get to do podcast interviews, but then when you get to do them with people that you actually really know personally and you get to share their business and their expertise and their brilliance just makes it extra fun. And so before I formally introduce Amanda, I want to tell you why you need to stick around for this episode. So here’s why you wanna listen to this episode. One, the main reason I have invited Amanda on to our podcast is because of the growing number of questions that our community and our listeners like you ask us all the time around, do I need an app? And if I do, how do I know when I am ready to get an app?
AJV (00:59):
And Amanda is going to answer those two question questions very specifically with real tangible data around why you should or why you shouldn’t, when you should, and what that process looks like. So that’s the first reason. The second reason is that there is this growing trend in the world called mobile apps, right? And there is a lot of things behind the scenes that most of us don’t realize when it comes to building, launching, growing, or even potentially monetizing an app. And so we’re gonna talk about some of that behind the scenes work and really what that means for the everyday entrepreneur, small business owner, coach, consultant, speaker, and what that world is gonna look like in the next five 10, so forth years. And then the third thing that you’re gonna learn, and this is also selfishly, is if you are ready for an app, what does that process look like?
AJV (01:55):
Like, does it really have to cost hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars and does it have to take years? And we’re gonna find the answers to that too. So how further ado, let’s get right into it. So I’m gonna give you a little formal bio on Amanda, and then we’ll then we’ll jump in. And the rest of this will be super casual, but Amanda is the CEO of App Ventures, which is an award win, the inter international custom tech company. They have won lots of awards. And I actually had one, one of Amanda’s clients on our podcast just a little while ago called, the company is called Keep With. And Amanda’s team is the one who actually developed and brought that idea to life and app form. So it’s so cool to not only get to know you, but to see your business actually bring things to fruition and products and services that I actually really love and enjoy.
AJV (02:49):
But I will say, I will tell you also, she has developed and led hundreds of top tier software experts to launch over 1000 apps, which is amazing. These apps are averaging a three times return on investment she has or
AM (03:25):
Thank you so much. It’s good to see you, aj.
AJV (03:27):
Oh my gosh, I’m so excited about this. And before we get into the nitty gritty details of building an app and what that process takes, I want people to get to know you a little bit and how you got into this business. But right before we do that, to kind of give people a preview of what to expect for the rest of this interview, can you just give us some very quick highlighted data, trends, insights around what this growing world of apps looks like and where you see it heading?
AM (04:00):
Ugh, I love this question. Yeah, so the biggest trend that I’m watching right now that really I think a lot of your clients and listeners are gonna care about is the shifts that kind of the larger social media companies are taking where they’re starting to lock down some of the most valuable elements of their platform. So for example, the most simple example I can share is you can no longer embed a private Facebook group into your app. And really Facebook knows that they know that people really are starting to build their own private communities mm-hmm.
AJV (05:39):
Yeah, so that’s a really good point because we have a private Facebook group at Brain Builders Group, but we have been urgently trying to figure out what is our long term? And for us, long term is like the next, in the next 12 to 24 months, what does that look like? Because not only do we know that that’s not a long term strategy to build our community on somebody else’s platform and that should be no one’s strategy to be honest. But one of the things that we are also seeing is we’re we’re experiencing a growing number of people who don’t wanna be a part of certain platforms.
AM (06:12):
And I’m that right. I’ve, I love you guys. I’ve been working with you guys for a couple of years now, and I’ve never been a part of Facebook as at like, when I’ve been with Brand Builders Group. I was a part of Facebook when I was a college kid when it first started forever
AM (07:06):
That’s, and you also really need to keep an eye on some of the legal changes and regulation changes that are headed our way. I, I know everyone knows about GDPR in Europe similar laws have already passed in California, and you’re gonna start seeing those laws slowly spread across the country. And you have to be very careful as you’re planning ahead for some of that kind of stuff too. So really, I think end users are demanding more demanding more from the apps that they work with demanding more privacy, demanding more intimacy, demanding more connection, and it’s a really exciting time to be developing tech for good that really is in service to end users rather than just taking,
AJV (07:56):
I love that It’s building technology for good. Yeah, I love that. It’s like with any tool, it can be used for good or for harm. And it’s like, how do we just do it that’s got this mutual benefit for the end user. So good. Y’all, this is why you need to stick around. We’re gonna get into the nitty grits of this, but I, I am super curious, like, how did you get into this world, this business? Like, give us just a little bit of background of why apps we could have done so many different things in technology. I know you’re wicked smart, but why this
AM (08:32):
Totally on accident, to be honest with you, I, I fell into technology at an early part of my career and I think truthfully, that’s what made me successful, right? So I think a lot of times where people get frustrated with technology is you have a business person speaking to a technology engineer and they just speak past each other, right? And when I first joined the industry, I didn’t know anything about technology that wasn’t my, that wasn’t my expertise. And so I found the smartest people in my organization and I made them sit down with me and explain everything. And so I think with that, that gave me the ability to blend business and technology and make sense out of something that is really can be overwhelming if you don’t understand the nuance. And so I think I built my career on being that bridge between what a business leader wants as an outcome and what is possible from a development perspective.
AM (09:38):
And I’ve come to realize that’s kind of a rare trait to almost act as a translator between the two ends of the business. And it’s been incredibly rewarding. So the reason why I stayed was because I believe in my core that technology has the ability to level the playing field. It grants access to vulnerable populations, to affluent populations, and everything in between. It really breaks down the barriers between location, right? So, I mean, I have to say a j I found you guys through technology. Mm-Hmm.
AJV (11:00):
You know, it’s so interesting that you say this. I’ve I actually made a post about this book that I’m reading called Find Your People by Jenny Allen. And I love Jenny Allen and I love this book specifically cuz it talks about how we’re in unprecedented times in America at least of a lack of community. And what an interesting thing with more technology availability and more interfaces and more this, that as a country we’re at an all time high of people who suffer from depression, anxiety addiction, and most of that stemming from an internal feeling of loneliness. And this entire book talks about loneliness is the real epidemic that we’re experiencing here in America. And then all these other things are the byproduct. And so I love what you say cuz it’s like, again, it’s like using technology for good and you know, we are most interested in our technology for communal purposes.
AJV (12:03):
It’s how do we stay in touch with people? How do we connect, how do we stay present and available when we are hundreds or sometimes thousands of miles apart? And I really do at some point during this interview wanna talk about the power of using apps specifically for community because as we are experiencing on the social media realms of today, and as we will continue you cannot build your audience on a borrowed platform. And that is Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn, Twitter. That’s what they all are. And so if you don’t have a plan of building an audience that you own then at, at some point you’re at the mercy of big tech companies and big investments, bankers deciding how you’re gonna engage with the people that you have built a following with. And so I love what you’re saying about just doing it for the purpose of community and doing it for good.
AJV (12:55):
Cuz I think that’s a really critical part of where business is heading and people are building these communities that are the source of major business and revenue. Back to this like, you know, customer loyalty is like people stay with people more than they stay with companies. So how do we do more of that? So, okay, so getting into this app conversation, which I love and I’m fascinated by because I feel like I get, I feel like going into the app store is like me going into like TJ Max, oh my gosh, I’m so overwhelmed. I go walk in and I’m like, there’s like too much here. I don’t know what to do. I don’t know which one. It’s like, I’m like doing it by customer ratings and it’s like, it’s so overwhelming to me. It’s like, I won’t even consider an app until like five or six people have said, you have to have this. And there’s just like, it’s so overwhelming and there’s so many of them. And so there’s my question with them being so many, how do you create something that actually does anything for good? And I guess my real, my real first question is, do you need an app?
AM (14:04):
Yes and no
AM (15:06):
And somehow those two buckets have gotten muddled, right? And I think, I think that’s a crusade that I’m up against right now is like, great build your town square, right? Or build your audience in your town square, but you bring them into your community and you protect them. And that’s when you’d want an app, right? So we say, look, work with brand builders group, build your following, build your audience. And once you reach a certain kind of magic number in terms of like a certain number of engaged followers, you need to bring them to a place where they’re sheltered within your community. And then they start to form intimate bonds. And that’s the magic of an app, right? So let’s go back to the TJ Max example. I get also super overwhelmed by TJ Max because like the racks are just overwhelming. I can’t even remember that You have to like, like comb through all of the different types of brands and sizes and product types and all of that.
AM (16:17):
If you could imagine going into TJ Max and knowing, okay, it’s, it’s a Thanksgiving, right? It’s, I call it the high holiday time, right? It’s Halloween, Thanksgiving, Christmas, like the best time of year to decorate, right? And so in that time of year, if I go into TJ Max, and I know I’m looking for a particular brand of a decor item. Ray Dunn is really well known in TJ Max, right? I don’t have to spend as much time as much of my attention, as much of my focus combing through all these different products if I know a very particular brand that I’m going for. Another example would be like in clothing and Under Armor, I know that I’m looking for that brand so I can go to that rack and more quickly sift through the noise, so to speak, and find the product that I’m looking for.
AM (17:11):
And that’s applying that analogy to technology, right? So one of my biggest gripes is if I’m looking for a particular type of content, not, not that different than shopping for a particular product. Let’s say I need some business inspiration, right? I’ve hit a plateau in my role. I’m tired, I’m burned out, I wanna go find some inspiration. The first thing I do is I go to Instagram and I look at all the people that I’m following and let’s pretend AJ posts something really inspiring that I haven’t seen before. And I’m like, who is this AJ Vaden? And then I start getting to know you, right? Testing you out a little bit. And then I’m like, I love what she has to say. What else does she have? And then I come upon a post where you’re like, Hey, I’ve just launched an app. All of my thoughts, my podcast, my books, any products that I’m selling, the community that I’ve built, it’s all here in this place.
AM (18:17):
Essentially come to my digital store. So we find that customers that rely on simply people finding you through the app store, they don’t succeed. Yeah. Because the app store is not going to elevate your app. The app store, I’ll, I’ll save a lot of my commentary on the challenges of posting something in an app store. That’s not the way to market your app. The way to market your app is by building an audience first. Having that foundation first and then having a plan to convert them to app users, right? You build your audience first and then you protect your community. But you can’t, you can’t protect a community that you don’t have, right? Yeah.
AJV (19:02):
So it’s such a good reminder to anyone who’s listening. Cause I think we all get tempted of what’s the newest, bright and shiny thing? What is everyone else doing? And it, it’s a really core part of mine. And my husband Rory’s philosophies and a part of Brain Builders group, it’s like there is a time and a place for all the things. And, and, and this example, an app is no different than a business model, right? It’s like you gotta have people to buy your products and services if you’re ever gonna make any money, right? And so there are two things that you said I think are really interesting and really important. And you said there’s this magic number, right? Like if you have this many followers and so care to give us any ranges of like what that ma magic number might be be Yeah.
AM (19:47):
Yeah. So our most successful clients come to us with an engaged audience of 10, at least 10,000 followers, right? And that can be across channels, right? Because you could, you can have 10,000 followers on LinkedIn. You can have 10,000 followers on Instagram. They can be divided amongst those right? Now, here’s why. So there are basically three main revenue streams in an app. The first one is pretty simple, paid subscriptions, right? And the second is advertising where essentially you can set up advertising space within your app and you can work on on a content mediation platform. They’ll fill in that ad space for you. And then the third would be like sponsors or strategic partners or people that want to have their logo in front of your community. Those are your three podcasts. Yeah.
AJV (20:43):
Podcast, okay.
AM (20:44):
Exactly. Exactly. And so let’s do some rough math here. If you can convert half of your 10,000 audience members to paid subscribers, and let’s just say you’re charging $20 a month for access to your app, and that would be content. The content that you’re producing, that would be the community that you’ve built around your content. I I describe that as like a digital country club. So this is an exclusive group of people that are building relationships around your core truth, right? So or as brand builders talks about your through line, right? And these are engaged people that are helping you along your path and building community, again, around your core truth. And then you might be selling some products, right? So my most successful clients host their podcast on the app. They will put digital versions of their book on the app. If they’re selling any physical products, you can sell a physical book if you want. You can sell shirts or mugs or whatever it is that you’re selling to further your brand. And let’s say that you have 5,000 users charging $20 a month low cost for high, high value, when you launch on launch day, you’re making a hundred thousand dollars in monthly revenue. Mm-Hmm.
AJV (22:18):
So this, so you said something really quickly cuz I’m curious how many people, and this could be just like a wildly guesstimated number here, but how many people do you think are charging for their ad versus just getting it for free?
AM (22:33):
So,
AJV (22:34):
Or should there be some versions?
AM (22:36):
It’s, it, you could do, you could do a freemium version where you’re exposed to ads now. Okay, so let’s talk about ad revenue because a lot of people kind of have the misconception that ad revenue is based simply on number of downloads and that’s not the case. So you need to have a number of active users. I guess that’s where a number of downloads make sense. But if some, somebody downloads your app and never opens it, you’re not making money off of that user, right? So it needs to be somebody that’s in your app and stays within your app for a longer period of time. And so that’s why you need a little bit more. So you need to convert about 80% of your engaged audience to deliver revenue substantial enough revenue on the freemium side, although I spend most of my time convincing my customers to have a paid application. And the reason why is one of my sales managers way long time ago said, Amanda, people value what they pay for mm-hmm
AJV (23:42):
AM (23:43):
And so I would say this back to our most successful apps. They come down to, there are two paths, but the the biggest one that we’re kind of talking about right now is you form a core truth. What are you here for? What breaks your heart? As brand builders taught me, what are you here to solve? That’s your core truth. You build content around your core truth and then you build a community that’s engaged around that content. That’s incredible. Regular high value content and connections that you’re providing your users. And I would say any country club charges for admission, any movie theater charges for admission, the people that you want in your digital community must be paying because they value what they pay for. And that’s what I’ve seen with our most successful clients in this type of a scenario where you have your core truth, your content, and your community.
AJV (24:45):
Okay, so I have like 14 questions right now,
AM (26:14):
No. So I would say this, it, you’re, this is not a cop out. I, I apologize. It depends, right? So looking at like category types, so like fitness for example, most of the fitness apps that we’re seeing out on the marketplace are charging anywhere between 20 to $40 a month, right? But hear me out on this on the fitness side, like you’re, you’re basically getting a digital personal trainer for $40 a month and tell me where you can go in any gym across the country and get that kind of dedicated high level personalized attention. You, you can’t, right? So I think that’s kind of the, the value there. Now let’s, let’s apply, let’s say like brand builders group and what you and Rory have to share, right? You guys are high level business strategists. You guys are coaches, you guys come in and you work directly with an entrepreneur to help them build up your business.
AM (27:20):
Okay? Where else are you gonna find that in the marketplace? Person to person? And if you’re, if you’re able, I would say charge 50 to $75 a month because you’re getting people that are engaged and really wanna, wanna level up their business. And that’s just for the app aj. That’s not for like access to events, that’s not access to products, that’s not access to one-on-one coaching, right? All it is is an entrance fee into the sanctuary that you’re building for your community, right? And so I would say most of our clients start out charging $20 a month just because it’s an even easy number for people to absorb. You’re not gonna get pushback. And then a lot of our clients will engage in ab testing on pricing when we work with our clients, we’ll kind of do a competitive review of what’s in the marketplace and what you can charge. The problem is, a lot of our clients right now that are thought leaders in this space that are kind of building what we are calling like the digital country clubs, they’re at the forefront. And so when you’re at the forefront, you have to guess and when you’re guessing, you have to compare, okay, how much am I charging versus the value I’m providing? And if that gap is big enough, you’ll start seeing volume that comes in much more quickly than, than if you’re kind of just throwing something at the wall and seeing what sticks.
AJV (28:49):
I love that. So, and, and I agree, I do think there is so much value in having gated content and building this gated community. And so that leads me to my next question. And you know, both, for me and everyone listening, I figured if I have these questions, so do you
AM (29:41):
Yeah, great question. So let, let’s talk about the podcast piece first. So I would say if you have a podcast, still put it out on iTunes, still put it out on Spotify because what you’re doing is you’re fishing, right? Like you’re putting lines in the water to attract more people from the town square into your protected community, right? That’s the purpose of having an Instagram feed, of having a podcast, of having a blog, having an email newsletter, all of these things, the purpose of those activities or putting lines in the water into the town square fishing for people to join your protected community. So a lot of times my frustration is I actually follow a, a bvg client on Apple Podcasts and I get super frustrated because Apple is now changing how they set up their podcasts without your per or oversight. They’ll put advertisements into your podcast. Yeah. And you’ll start seeing that with podcasts and iBooks even. They’re inserting ads. And so you’re starting to see the evolution of Apple from a product company to a media company, right?
AJV (30:58):
I have noticed that too. And many people who we know who have very, very, very big podcasts they are quickly going, what? Like, exactly. You can’t have ads on my show without even asking me. But yet they can,
AM (31:15):
They can because it’s rented space, right? So I would say in the podcast example, you put the, that podcast out on iTunes, Spotify, whatever for Phish purposes, you bring that also into your app as, and you can put it in front of the paywall or behind the paywall. That that’s, that’s kind of your prerogative. But what the thing is is now I know if I wanna hear from aj, I’m gonna go to AJ’s app mm-hmm.
AJV (32:40):
Absolutely. Yeah. No, I think, again, back to the quickly changing landscape that we’re all living in, where now Apple is deciding, well, we’re gonna decide what ads we put on your podcasts and even YouTube. It’s like, I could put an ad on your podcast today to advertise my podcast if I wanted to, right? And I think there’s just a lot of that of going, man, it’s like I’m trying to create an experience for my audience and Exactly. Advertisers and big media companies are kind of getting in the way of that. So then, so then the question is about how much content do you reserve for the app versus what you’re just putting out there on social media?
AM (33:21):
Yep. So the biggest way I encourage our clients to delineate is the content you put out on social media or in front of the paywall. Those should be an invitation, right? So it’s free because it’s an invitation. The content that goes behind the paywall is the instruction on execution, right? So the invitation might be a sample, might be the first bite or two, but then the real getting down to the nuts and bolts of executing to solve the problem that you’re working against that sits behind the paywall. And so what happens is, if you have a, and actually the beautiful thing is you don’t really need to have a ton of content that you’re consistently refreshing that’s behind the paywall. Because what happens is people will go through that content that’s behind the paywall and through that build connections with the community that have already been around and been doing the execution.
AM (34:25):
And so people will come for the content and stay for the community, right? So what it does is it takes a little bit of weight off of the content creators. The hardest stuff is teaching on execution, right? That takes a lot of thought planning production time, production cost what you can do, once you’ve established that behind the paywall, then it alleviates the pressure. So you can focus more on generating the fresh content that is acting as the invitation, right? Almost like the advertisements to the town square. And the reason why you need to have fresh content constantly is because you as content creators are consistently diluted mm-hmm.
AJV (35:27):
So then this leads me to my next question cause I agree with all of that. Which is what’s the likelihood of, I don’t know, know even like, even in the app store? So I don’t know if this is true, but I was told this here recently and it stuck with me that Apple takes about 30% of revenue for every app sold. That’s about right.
AM (35:51):
AJV (36:36):
Call it, okay, the Apple tax, that’s good, but it’s like, basically if you’re under a million in annual revenue, they’re taking 10% of gross revenue. So just build that into the budget. And so I guess my question is, which I did not realize that, so I think that was really important and I came up in a conversation here lately and then my, so my question is like, what, what is the likelihood that Apple, just like all of these other platforms, as Apple is changing this with the podcast, start doing this own thing in the app store where they’re going, well now I’m gonna decide how things are done, because it too is a little bit of rented real estate in terms of, you know, the marketplace, the grocery store of sorts, so
AM (37:15):
Exactly costs
AJV (37:16):
Around that.
AM (37:16):
Yeah, so we we’re watching a lot of what’s happening with Apple and Google, especially as it relates to the app marketplaces. I, I don’t see Apple increasing commission, nor do I see them trying to make any large changes or dominate app owners or developers for a couple of reasons. First of all, they got in deep trouble with the government on how they were managing a lot of these commissions and what they were doing. And we saw Apple make a pretty abrupt change in their policies from there. The other thing is for as challenging as Apple can be, they really do love their developer community. And you have to remember, they are motivated to keep developers coming back and app owners coming back because that’s a big part of their revenue. And so this is why you’ll see like app, it was a lot, or Apple was a lot of their major updates.
AM (38:20):
They’re slowing down the impact that it has to developers because they wanna keep their developers happy. They have to, it’s a big part of their business. The one risk I would say is it’s really important for app owners to be aware of Apple’s guidelines because they do change. So one example, I’m sure any user who has an app remembers when you’d have to go through an app update and you’d have to click Ask App not to track that was a guideline change from Apple that every app owner was required to add that button back to the user. And really that’s in response to user demand on privacy and shifting laws. So building an app is no different than owning a storefront, right? Laws change, customer preferences change taxes change, revenues change. And I think that’s all the more reason to want to have your own app to give you the control to pivot in a way that works best for you.
AJV (39:22):
That’s good. All right. Well I have, we just have like five more minutes and I’ve got like two questions here I think that are really important. So this whole kind of concept, or you’ve got 10,000 plus, you know, online followers and that’s growing, then this is kind of like, okay, now let’s talk about like, should you have one maybe. So, and then give us just some high level behind the scenes, what’s that process look like? How much does it cost emotionally prepare everyone listening of real numbers, real timelines? What does it look like to have an app?
AM (39:53):
Oh my gosh, this is the hardest part of the process. Shopping for an app makes TJ Max look like a day at this spa. It’s so I, you know, I actually really empathize and I have a high level of respect for all of our clients because building custom software is not an easy thing to find the right person. It’s, it’s really hard actually. And the reason why is because you have developers from all over the world, right? And they have different salary needs. So a developer in Pakistan is going to charge a much different hourly rate than a developer in the Bay Area in California, even if they have the same level of experience and expertise. And so I think that element and also the creative element. So how an engineer would approach a, an app idea or a technical problem, it’s up to whatever’s in the mind of the engineer.
AM (40:53):
And so one engineer may think that a particular app would take 10,000 hours to build, whereas another developer would think it’s only 2000 hours. And so I think it’s those elements of very wildly varying rates and wildly varying ideas on how to tackle a problem. And that’s where, for a single project you could get a quote from anywhere from $10,000 to as high as a million. And in fact, APPT did recently we did a competitive study a a local against our local competitors and nationwide. And it blew me away. We had detailed features like, this is what we want. And we were getting quote ranges that same whip from $10,000 to a million dollars and app it. We tend to kind of come in like mid-level because we’re a hybrid. So it’s, it’s crazy. It’s really hard. And so, oh gosh, I could spend, you
AJV (42:00):
Make a decision based on, I mean, cuz I imagine most people make a decision based on, well, if I got 10,000, a million, 10,000 sounds a lot better. So, but then it’s like, what at what cost are you paying that, you know, fee? So it was like, how do you even make a decision in those types of environments? Yeah.
AM (42:19):
So I, you know what aj I might have to give you a blog on how to vet vendors. Like we had a list of questions that you should ask every single vendor to make sure that they’re a fit for your project because price is a, like, it’s, it varies so wildly that it’s not, it can’t be a deciding factor, right? Because even if you go purely offshore with a very low cost developer, so that $10,000 example, what you’re missing is cultural context. Mm-Hmm.
AM (43:17):
And that in and of itself, I mean, I would say about 40% of our business comes from entrepreneurs who tried to take the cheap route and have ended up spending what they would’ve spent anyways. They would’ve saved the money had they just gone with a reputable shop in the first place. So I would say this, check the reviews a really, really good place to go is Clutch. It’s a, it’s a third party website. They ranker technical service providers like app and you can start to see the rankings If you want somebody local, you can see who’s the best in your local area. But honestly I think it comes down to relationship. Like you have to work with somebody that you know and you trust or that somebody that you know, has worked with and trusted and has done a good job for them.
AJV (44:12):
Yeah, I think there’s three things that kind of to like, to wrap up our conversation cause I could ask another 36 question if we had the time. But but to everyone listening, Amanda and her team at Abbot have put together something really cool for all of our listeners. And if you’re wondering, am I ready for an app they actually have put together a cool quiz that you can take that will tell you are you ready for an app? And so if you go to app ventures.com/b bg app quiz, we will also put that in the show notes. But it’s app a p ventures.com/bbg app quiz. You can go and take this quiz to determine if you’re ready for an app. And if you are, then to kinda recap what Amanda said is that then go to Clutch, which is a great place to review different vendors.
AJV (45:11):
App is reviewed on there to do a comparative analysis of, you know, try to compare apples to apples here. Doesn’t really help if you’re comparing apples and bananas. But let’s look at apples to apples. And then if you’ll send me the blog link of great questions to add or to ask, we’ll add that to the show notes so that everyone listening, you’ve got three amazing resources to leave this interview with. Go take this quiz. Then you can go to clutch start vetting vendors, and then we’ll include this blog link where you can go and say, these are the best questions that I can ask to figure out who’s the best person to proceed down this path. But I think generally speaking, we’re all headed towards this privately owned community realm at some point. And at some point just means when you are ready, when it makes sense for you without comparing yourself to anyone else’s out there, it’s not doing it for the sake of doing it, it’s doing it for the sake of this is what my com, my community and my business requires of me at this time. Now last but not least, if people wanna connect with you personally, Amanda, where should they go?
AM (46:19):
You know, if you anybody has any questions like, Hey, I can you review this bid? Am I crazy or can you help me build out a feature summary? Have them email me, just [email protected]. This is my passion to help people start off on their right foot with technology. So email me, I will answer any question you have or you can find me on LinkedIn. Amanda, more uchi and let’s keep in touch and I’m here to help. I’m here to answer any questions, mostly because I want good tech built for good people. And it should be, it should be way easier than it is. But it’s a challenge. So,
AJV (47:05):
Well that’s outrageously generous. So Race for Impact
Ep 363: 15 Legal Strategies for Entrepreneurs to Reduce Taxes | Henry Yoshida Episode Recap
RV (00:02):
Well, most of the strategies that we teach at Brand Builders Group are strategies to help you grow your income, right? Obviously most of the time on this show we’re interviewing guests. Most of the teaching that we do is in our paid membership. Of course, that’s our core businesses, helping mission driven messengers to build and monetize their brand and become more well known and make a bigger impact in the world. So most of what we talk about is how to grow your income. What’s interesting though is the interview that I just did with Henry Yoshida, which if you haven’t listened to it, go listen to it. The first part of the interview is all about understanding a vehicle called a self-directed i r a, which is, it’s not a new vehicle, but it’s one that you most people haven’t heard of that’s becoming more popular, especially because of like a tools being created like the one that Henry has created.
RV (00:52):
Which is very, very affordable way to sort of transfer your i r a into more self-directed or non-trad, non-traditional assets. And anyways, that’s what the whole interview is about. But towards the end of the interview we started talking about just general tax strategy. And you know, there were a few things that came up that inspired me to go, you know what? I’m gonna, I’m gonna put together a killer episode here for you all and this on tax strategy, because this is not something that you normally hear. And I would consider, like when most people think of Brand Builders group, right? They think of like, oh, you guys help people, you know, crush book launches, right? Like, we’ve had at the time of this recording, 11 clients that we’ve helped hit the New York Times or Wall Street Journal bestseller list.
RV (01:43):
We’ve had four clients that we’ve helped that we’ve, that we’ve worked with where their TED Talk has gone viral over a million views. We’ve had five clients grow their business more than seven figures in a year. Like it’s, it’s, we we’re known for like those kinds of things. But when you are with us for a while, like a lot of our clients stay with us for many years. Like as your business starts to grow, our training gets more and more advanced. And one of the things that we talk about, but rarely, it’s more like in smaller rooms like our private Highland Masterminds and like our most experienced people is tax strategy. And, and we talk about things like managing your financial statements and, and you know, forecasting and, and just, you know, legal stuff that you don’t hear a lot. So anyways, what I wanted to go ahead and put out there into the world and just make this available for free is 15 legal strategies to help you reduce your taxes if you’re an entrepreneur. Now obviously I’m, I’m not a cpa, I’m not a C F P. I did, I did go to school by undergrad. I studied much about accounting and I do have an mba. But you should always, always, always, you know, consult with your local tax advisor.
RV (02:58):
You know, know. So I don’t consider this professional like legal advice officially, but I’m telling you, you wanna check into these things. And I’m not gonna explain ’em all in detail cuz we don’t have time. But I’m gonna rattle these off of 15 legitimate legal ethical tax strategies that you can, you can explore if you’re an entrepreneur. And this is important. And, and I would actually say part of why I’m putting this together, and no offense to CPAs, there’s some great CPAs out there, but in our experience, we have worked with a number of CPAs who actually aren’t very well equipped to offer tax strategy advice. Most of them just do tax returns. They’re not very creative, they don’t ask very many questions. And when I mean creative, I don’t mean creative, like they’re bending the rules. I’m saying they don’t even know what questions to ask in order to take advantage of many of the kinds of things that I’m gonna share with you here.
RV (04:00):
Right? And so the, the place to learn tax strategy is not graduate school. It’s it’s not, you know, professional training. Where you really learn it is from other entrepreneurs. And, and honestly, they have to be very successful entrepreneurs. Otherwise, this conversation doesn’t come up very often and very, very few people know much about it. And so, anyways, that’s why I thought let’s go ahead and just put this out into the world. This’ll be, you know, hopefully you’ll see an example of some of what our high level business training looks like. Yes, we teach, you know, all the other things. Copywriting and funnels and podcasting in the business of speaking and book launches and how to train your sales team and sell high dollar offers and, you know, build your content and write your book and your positioning and messaging. But our phase four curriculum gets pretty ninja and it gets pretty advanced on, on just general being an entrepreneur.
RV (04:54):
So here’s just like one example of a micro lesson. I’m gonna put this out here into the world for free. You know, take it with a grain of salt, but this is, this is stuff that we’ve learned by experience. So here we go. I’m gonna rattle through these again, I’m not gonna spend a ton of time on each one, but these are, I’m gonna say these are hints for you to go investigate and look because they’re very legitimate. So, number one is what came up in the interview with Henry and that’s what kind of inspired me to put this together for you is a defined benefit plan or a pension plan. So you can listen more to the interview cuz we kind of talked a little bit in, in detail in the interview. But the bottom line with this is that as a, as a business owner, you can create a, a mechanism by which you provide a, a retirement benefit for your employees, okay?
RV (05:46):
Typically, like you think of 401k, right? And but when you are an employee of the company, there are certain plans that allow, allow you as the owner to maximize or create, create large contributions to your retirement account. So it doesn’t pad your money doesn’t pad your pocket with money in the short term. In fact, it, it takes money out of your pocket because you’re putting it into retirement instead of putting it either into your checking account or or into the government’s pocket. But what it does is it allows you to have to, to, to contribute much more than you would normally be allowed to include with something like the r you know, there’s Roth IRAs and they have income limits, and then there’s traditional IRAs and they have total contribution limits, and then there’s four oh [inaudible] limits.
RV (06:40):
So, you know, typically, you know, 25,000, 20 to $30,000 ish somewhere in there is about what you can do. But if you’re an entrepreneur and you have a successful business and you start to make real money and you go, okay, what are other things I can do? I can provide this awesome benefit to my employees and it gives me a vehicle to sock away more money for retirement later. So, you know, pension plans, defined benefit plan, go, you know, investigate that and listen to the interview with Henry, you can check that out. Second thing if you’re making a profit the, the, you know, the entity, the legal structure of your, of your business entity dramatically affects your, your tax liability and your tax implications. So there’s, there’s more that should be considered into this conversation. But in general, okay, a a great place to look if you are, you’ve been a, an entrepreneur and you’ve got a fairly successful business and you’re making profit, is to look at the structure in L L C filing as an S corp, right?
RV (07:43):
So a lot of times a business starts as like a sole proprietor, then at some point you maybe become an L L C. But look into L L C filing as an S corp for lots of of entrepreneurs that are sort of in this maturing phase, starting to make money. There is a great opportunity for tax advantages. Now there’s some, there’s some other things that get triggered. And, and what I’m sharing with you, I’m not sharing with you unethical or illegal strategies. These are legal ones. Part of what makes them legal is that they have counterbalancing forces, right? So in order to take advantage of some of these, there’s certain other things you can take advantage of. But I’m sharing with you sort of like my, some of my greatest hits here. There’s, there’s a few that are not on this list that are more advanced really for like scaling companies.
RV (08:31):
Really, really like, as as you start thinking about selling your company that would come up. And there’s one on here. The last one, by the way, I’m gonna show you how to become filthy rich and never ever pay taxes in a completely legal way. That’s gonna be number 15 on this list. So, so keep staying tuned for that. All right, so number three specifically, this is something for training companies. So if, if you are a training company which means you train people, you, you train, you have like you know, a lot of times it’s, it’s some type of information marketing type business where you do professional training. There is something called a 1 99 a exemption. Okay? Now this is set to sunset currently, I think in 2025. But if you just go to irs.gov and just look up 1 99 A, this is qualified business income deduction and look for the FAQs.
RV (09:30):
This creates a major tax advantages that, you know, could, can be tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of dollars a year. If you have a company that you know, is like, let’s say multi seven figures, that is a true, legitimate training company. And there’s certain things you have to do to qualify as a legitimate training company. Brand builders group, we’re a training company. We have curriculum and, and we have workbooks, and we have courses in systematic training and processes that we put people through. So look at, look up the 1 99. A number four is the Augusta rule. So the Augusta Rule, this is something that says you can rent your home 14 days a year. I, I, I believe, again, don’t quote me on all this, this isn’t what I do full-time, but I, I, you know, I’m, the things I’m saying shouldn’t be grossly out of out inaccuracies.
RV (10:21):
They, they should be pretty accurate. Off the top of my head, I think the Augusta rule says you can rent your home 14 days a year tax free. It comes from the masters tournament and people who live in Augusta who rent their home out during the masters and they make a bunch of money. So what the Augusta rule allows you to do is to rent your own home to your business. So if your business has meetings and you have to rent boardrooms or meeting space and that’s a legitimate business operation and function that you have whatever the market rate is that you would pay to rent somewhere else, can be amount that you can you know, the equivalent market rate of, of renting a similar property or space somewhere else you can rent to yourself and use your home for those meetings.
RV (11:08):
And, and 14 days worth of that can be tax free. So this is this is one of the things you sometimes hear on the internet and you’re like, is that real? Actually is real? A few of these are gonna be like that where you’re like, man, I’ve, I’ve heard, you know, I’ve seen Instagram and TikTok videos like have gone viral. A lot of times they’re over sensationalizing things and they’re not, you know, telling you about like the restrictions behind them, but some of them are, you know, they’re actually legit and you just have to sort of investigate. The Augusta rule is one of those. Number five is a D A F, which is a donor advised fund. This is a charitable, this has to do with charitable givings. And basically, you know, when you make charitable contributions, the government allows you to, to deduct that from your taxable income.
RV (11:55):
Well, the thing is, is you might, let’s say you have a bunch of money come in at, at one year or something, you have a big launch or something, g great happens. You just have a good year and you’re sitting on a pile of money and you’re not sure who you wanna donate that money to. And, and you don’t wanna pay taxes on it. So you go, I’m gonna start a d a f a donor advised fund, which allows me to put my money aside in ear market for charitable givings, and I can take the tax deduction now so that I don’t get taxed this year, but then I have to give that money later. So again, it’s not like it’s some magic way of, of keeping money in your pocket, it’s just saying, rather than paying money to the government, I’m gonna pay money to causes that I care about and, and I’m gonna give, and so I’m reducing my tax liability.
RV (12:44):
And the government does that on purpose. It’s not like you’re sneaking one past them, right? What they’re doing is they’re incentivizing business owners and people of wealth to invest into and give money to things that make the world a better place. You know? And they have to be, you know, actual nonprofit organizations and they, they have to uphold certain standards to, to classify what, whatever it is, a 4 0 1 [inaudible] [inaudible] and i, I think is what it is. Yeah, I think, I think that’s it. A 4 0 3 [inaudible] maybe, maybe there’s both of ’em. But anyways, they have to be a nonprofit organization. But the point is, you can take the deduction immediately now and not have to give the money until later. Also, the money inside of your fund can grow and grow and grow and earn interest while you’re figuring out who you want to distribute that money to.
RV (13:33):
So that’s a, that’s a cool one. Number six is a keep bonus, and that’s Q E A A P. It is a rule that allows you to make up to $1,600, I believe, per employee as a gift and a deduction for any gift. So basically, instead of paying them $1,600 in income, of which you have to pay payroll taxes on and they have to pay in income taxes on, you can actually get money to your employees. So it’s a way of getting them more money where neither of you, like you get the tax deduction and they don’t pay the income tax on it. And you can do that up to $1,600 per a year per employee using something called the keep bonus. So that’s a really cool way. Again, it doesn’t put more money in your pocket, but it is, it prevents you from paying taxes.
RV (14:29):
You, if you don’t do that, what’s gonna happen is you’re gonna get taxed on all that money, and the government’s gonna take a percentage of that. So it’s basically like instead of paying it to the government, you could pay it to your employees. And again, it’s the reason it’s not illegal. It’s not like the government is stupid or that they don’t know this. They’re, they’re doing it as going, Hey, there’s a vehicles and ways to increase the amount of money that you give to people. And this is why, by the way, this is why entrepreneurs get tax breaks, is because the government knows you’re stimulating the comp, the, the economy you are helping you, your, you’re helping stabilize the country. And b by the way, I should have said this earlier, these are all US based tax strategies. So I know we have a lot of you that are listeners that listen internationally.
RV (15:15):
This is completely US based. I apologize, but I’m not, I’m not well versed in international tax law, but what I would say is my experience has been many other countries have similar types of things, similar types of vehicles. They’re often called something differently. So still worth paying attention to this and then kind of investigating your local tax code or asking a C P A or asking a successful entrepreneur or investor about some of these things. But anyways, in the us you know, the, the government gives tax breaks to entrepreneurs cuz we’re creating jobs, which means we’re giving income to people, which means there’s a less dependency on the government for their, for their income and for their health and wellbeing and their family, and also for their retirement, right? And, and that takes pressure off of the government. And so that’s, that’s kind of why this works.
RV (16:03):
It’s not like we’re pulling a fast one over them, but it, it’s also, if no one tells you this, you’re not gonna know any of this stuff. And I went to graduate school, right? Like I went to graduate school and I don’t remember learning any of this.
RV (16:51):
So you don’t have to pay taxes, payroll taxes on that money, but you’re, you’re transferring money from the business to your employees without having a, and it’s lowering your tax burden. It’s lowering your, your tax impact. So that’s number seven. Number eight, okay? This is another classic internet viral video One is something called the section 1 79 deduction. This is sometimes referred to as the Hummer rule. And you go, people are going and buying hummers and taking a hundred percent of that as a deduction. Is that really real? And the answer is yes, it was for a while, and it kind of is still. So section 1 79 refers to that section of the, the tax code, which says that vehicles that weigh over 6,000 pounds are they were, they were a hundred percent deductible. I think that’s trailing off.
RV (17:50):
I think it trails down a little bit year over year. But this, this is something that we actually took advantage of because when you have these, it’s the catches, it has to be a, it, the vehicle has to have a gross vehicle weight rating, G V W R, gross vehicle weight rating of more than 6,000 pounds. And if that is the case and you buy a vehicle that weighs over 6,000 pounds, that’s considered to be like a commercial vehicle for your business, you could take a hundred percent of that amount as a deduction in the year that you made that purchase. Now this was like a year ago, I think this is already factoring out, but and, and, and, and may, it’s gonna disappear at some point unless the tax law changes. But anyways, investigate the details of a section 1 79 deduction.
RV (18:42):
Number nine is vacations, okay? Business trip slash vacations. It is true, you know, to my knowledge that you can take deductions for vacations if more than 50% of the time is for work, right? So you have to be doing work related activities more than 50% of the time. So there are details around this that matter and that, that, that are important. There’s details around all of these things, like I should have mentioned. Going back to the Augusta rule, which was number four on this list, one of the things you have to do if I remember, is you have to take meeting notes and you have to produce meeting notes that say I had, I actually had this meeting in my house on this date. This is what we talked about. And this is a meeting that we would’ve had somewhere else at a hotel.
RV (19:32):
And I would’ve, I would’ve or could have had to have paid that money to a hotel. And rather than doing that, I’m, I’m taking it as you know, a tax deduction for on my taxes, but I actually had a real meeting. You have to actually have a real meeting and have, have notes. Now you know exactly how long the meeting is and what exactly do you cover. Those things are, you know, a little more gray area and a little bit depends on your appetite for, you know, how much you follow the letter of the law versus the spirit of the law, et cetera, et cetera. But on business trip vacations, a good example of it is, Hey, I’m gonna go to Miami and I’m going to, you know, set up work meetings on Friday and on Monday, and then I’ll just stay there Saturday and Sunday.
RV (20:14):
All now of a sudden that becomes a business trip that I can write off you know, in full or large portions of, or certain components of, so again, there are, that is a legal, legal deduction. Number 10, this one is interesting. I almost didn’t put this one on the list cuz we’ve, we don’t, we’ve never done this, but I’m hearing of a lot of people doing this. So I would approach this one with extra caution, but if you have a company and you own a video production company, okay, so you have to start a business. You, you know, which means there has to be some legal documents, right? And you create an actual business that is a video production company that does video work. Then anything that you buy that shows up in your videos, it can be a deduction because it’s considered a part of the set design.
RV (21:10):
I’m sure it’s not anything you buy, it’s probably not cars and houses and, and helicopters and things although maybe, but you know, just like certain other things, like anything that would appear in one of your sets, which again, there’s probably limitations to this, but a lot of times it’s much more flexible than you realize if you actually go investigate the details. And this is where I talk about, you know, CPAs aren’t super creative, they don’t think of this kind of thing. And you go, well, if you shoot videos as a part of what you do and you go, can I start a little side business that does this legitimately? Like it’s gotta be a business. You gotta have some other clients beyond just you. But how many clients do you have to have for it to be considered legitimate? You know, is is kind of a flexible conversation.
RV (21:53):
So and then you go, man, I’m gonna, I’m gonna buy a prop you know, and I’m gonna buy a $200 set of bows headphones, because I’m gonna use that as a prop in a video and it’s part of my set design, right? So yeah, there’s an ethical gray area that comes into this, but there’s a, there’s a legal component that is, is perfectly legal if you are abiding by certain things. So pay attention to that. Alright, number 11, another internet one. This one is often becomes, you know, one of these viral videos is to hire your children. And this is true, this is a, is a, is a perfectly legal strategy. As long as your kids have an actual job, I think they have to have a job description and they have to have certain, certain form formalities and certain things that establish them as an employee of the company.
RV (22:46):
So in this case, you can pay your kids up to, at the time of this recording, I think it’s $12,500 a year, and the kids don’t have to pay taxes. Why? Because nobody has to pay taxes on the first $12,500 per year. So how does this save you money on taxes? Well, it’s basically a way that you can get money to your children with pre-tax dollars instead of after tax dollars, right? If, if I were gonna, you know, buy something for my kids, I’d have to buy that with after tax dollars. Like I draw income, I pay taxes, and then I have money to pay, put give to my kids. If my kids are an employee of the company now I can pay them $12,500 every year. They don’t have to pay taxes. And now they have actual money that is theirs that they have earned.
RV (23:38):
Now that money has to, will go to them. It cannot be money that you use otherwise that is like, you know, illegal. But if it is money that is going to them that they’re using for their things, paying for schooling, paying for sports, paying for whatever I don’t even think there’s restrictions on like toys and things. Like I think they can spend the money double check that, but, but it’s their money. It can’t be your money. You can’t pretend to pay that money and then take that money and go buy yourself a car with it. But it can be money that they have and they can, they can then start to invest that money and use that money to pay. I think they can even pay for like private school and things that are of personal direct benefit to them. And you go, the reason it’s an advantage is you’d be paying that money anyways, right?
RV (24:22):
Like if you didn’t pay it to him, you’d be paying that out of your pocket and you’d be paying that money with after tax dollars. So look into the specifics again of exactly you know, you can’t just say they’re an employee, you have to give them certain duties and things, but it’s, that’s reasonable, right? And you’re the business owner. So you’re, you are within your legal rights to determine what you pay people for and what you hire them to do and how much you pay people, right? The, as, as long as it’s above minimum wage, there’s no, there’s no government mandate on what tasks you choose to pay certain money for. And so, you know, there’s a limit here, there’s a threshold, but again, this is perfectly legal. Number 12, anything with your logo on it is considered a uniform or advertising expense, including clothing, right?
RV (25:12):
So brand builders group, you know, I, I’m for some of you are listening to this, you can’t see me, but I’m wearing my brand, a brand builders group sweatsuit that we got. It’s got our logo on it, this is a hundred percent write off, right? So I’ve got this little tiny logo on here, and now all of a sudden this piece of clothing is a hundred percent write off as advertising expense and I would say is very legitimate, right? Those of you that are watching this video, you see the logo right inside the video. So it’s like very, very legit now. So considering put your logo on things now there’s probably some limits here. Like putting a logo on your car doesn’t necessarily mean you can just write off the whole car, but there are some things like that where people wrap their cars and they do certain things.
RV (25:57):
You should look at that. Number 13, number 13 is an H s a A health savings account, okay? A health savings account. Think of it like an I r A, it’s just an account where you can put money in. You know, kind of like how we were talking with Henry about the, this, our whole conversation in this last interview was about SD IRAs, self-directed IRAs. It’s just a, it’s just a special type of account that has special tax treatment in the eyes of the government. And HSA is an account. When you put money into your hsa, that money you don’t get taxed on the money you put in there. Now, here’s the catch. All of that money has to be used for health expenses, right? So that’s why the government, again, you’re not pulling a fast one over the government, it’s legal.
RV (26:46):
They, they ins they create this tax incentive and the whole tax system, right, is not about penalizing people, it’s about incentivizing people to use their money in certain ways, in ways that benefit the economy, the overall health and stability of a country and, and, and you know, a government, et cetera. Well, this, if people have money saved for their own health expenses, that reduces the dependency again on the government. It keeps you healthy, et cetera, et cetera. There’s advantages to the government and to the overall, you know, country of keeping people healthy. So when you put money into your health savings account, now you have money that is earmarked. You can only use that money for health expenses except once you are over a certain age. So if you put money into an HSA year after year after year, and it’s growing, right? It’s an, it’s, it’s, you can have that invested that is growing.
RV (27:43):
You at a certain age, which is probably 59 and a half or 62 and a half or 65 or whatever the number is. Now, if you haven’t used that money for health expenses at that point, I believe you can then take it. And you can use that money. You, you can, you can use that money as retirement if not, even if you can’t do that or even if the legislation changes around that. The advantage is you have money growing and growing and growing. So even if you’re gonna use it for your, you know, your to, to be in a retirement home one day and and assisted living home, the advantage is you’ve had money growing and earning interest and, and, you know, you’re, you’re saving on taxes throughout your lifetime. It’s growing. You’re not paying taxes on that. And then when the time comes that you need it for large health expenses, the money is there, right?
RV (28:34):
So that’s a huge advantage. And I actually think that once you reach a certain age, I think you can access some of that money as retirement money. In, now again, in the interim, it doesn’t put more money in your pocket. It, it’s, it’s all of this is allowing you to invest. Notice the theme here. The government is incentivizing you. The government is using tax law to incentivize you to use your money in certain ways, providing jobs, taking care of your health, investing in things, and providing for your own retirement and for the retirement of your employees. That’s why these things are all legal. It’s, it’s, it’s because they want you to use it in a certain way. So what a lot of successful entrepreneurs do is they go, ah, let me put some money. You know, if you max out your I r a and you max out your 401k, and you start to make real money every year in profits, every year you go, well, let me put all my money, let me, let me max up my hsa my health savings account, which is I think at the time of this recording, around $3,600 a year, you can put $3,600 a year in there and now that account grows.
RV (29:38):
And then if you have the money or hopefully then you just, you pay your health expenses with after tax dollars so that you can have this big thing growing as a nest egg that gets bigger and bigger and bigger over the, over over time. So that’s a great, a great legal strategy. Now, these last two are huge strategies and they, they are gonna, they will sound crazy, but these are ways that you can actually legally avoid paying taxes at all. Like and you know, or certain parts of taxes. Okay? So here’s what number 14 is, and you may have heard of this. The, the more successful you become as an entrepreneur, the more you’ll start hanging around people who are having these kinds of conversations. And you will start to hear about Puerto Rico Act 22, Puerto Rico Act 22.
RV (30:32):
We have several friends now at this point who have moved to Puerto Rico. John Lee Dumas was our first friend that did this. And now I can, off the top of my head, think of like five other friends who all live in Puerto Rico. Puerto Rico Act 22 allows you to play a, a flat tax rate of 4% again, at the time of this recording. But you have to live, you have to be a primary resident of Puerto Rico. So if you like Puerto Rico and you don’t mind living in Puerto Rico Puerto Rico is a US controlled territory, right? So you’re under the protection and the, and the rule of the United States. But you, you, there, there are some caveats here. So you have to live in Puerto Rico, you know, one day more than half a year. So whatever that is, 162 or 163 days a year, whatever the number is.
RV (31:23):
You have to live there. You also have to do certain things to establish Nexus. Like your banking account has to be there, your place of worship your your, your primary mailing address, your your driver’s license, things like that have to be legit. You have to become a legit Puerto Rican resident. But when you do that, you then do not have to pay federal income tax of the us. You only pay Puerto Rico taxes, which are 4%. Now one of the other things to be aware of is that you give up your right to vote, as I understand it, right? So you can no longer vote in elections, but and you gotta move your family to Puerto Rico. So there’s some trade-offs, right? But you’re also going, you might be going from a 40% tax bracket or 50% tax bracket if you live in California.
RV (32:09):
And if you can set up your business and operate legitimately in Puerto Rico, you’re gonna go to 4%. So you could like almost double your income just by moving. And you have to stay there a certain number of years. I think it’s like three years or something. And if you, if you come back before then you have, you know, there’s, you have to like do back taxes or whatever. But so anyways, look at this. It’s a real thing. Puerto Rico Act 22 and then number 15, this is the grand finale, the Grand PBA of how you can literally become a millionaire, a multimillionaire, a billionaire even, and never pay any taxes at all. How does this work? How could you possibly, how is this real? Yes, this is real. Okay? This is how wealthy, wealthy, wealthy people think. How do we know we happen to know a lot of wealthy people?
RV (33:06):
Because a lot of, I mean, we’ve had four clients at Brand Builders Group who are billionaires in like the last 18 months, billionaires with a B, right? So we’re starting to see and hang out with some like really wealthy people. So what is the best way to create wealth and never pay taxes? How is this possible that you can have billions of dollars and never pay taxes? So here’s, here’s how you do it. It’s not easy, but it is real. Is you start a company as an entrepreneur, you grow that business, and then you take that company public. Once you take that pump, that company public, now you have stock that is actually worth real money. It has a, a real market rate. And what a lot of these billionaire founders do, and I’m talking big companies, right? Big time people like celebrity entrepreneurs that you hear about.
RV (33:59):
So what they do is they take their company public, they have millions and millions and hundreds of millions and sometimes billions of dollars in stock. And then what they do is they take a loan against that stock from a bank and you never pay taxes, right? So, so, so they’re using their stock as collateral to take a loan from a bank. So that’s how they turn it into money. If they were to sell the stock, that would be a liquidity event. So they would then realize that as income and they would have to pay taxes on it. But there are, there’s plenty of banks who will look at a public, publicly, publicly held stock as a, as a strong collateral against alone. And so they’ll take a loan from the bank, they hold up the stock as collateral, they technically own the stock. They never have to sell the stock.
RV (34:48):
And what’s happening is the bank is giving them a loan against it. And now they’re just paying, they’re paying interest, they’re paying interest on that loan to the bank. But it is, it pales in comparison to what you would pay in taxes to the government. I found this, bam. That is how you can 100% legitimately avoid paying taxes and become filthy, filthy rich if you wanna do it. So there you have it, no gimmicks nothing illegal. Definitely some things that have some stipulations and some criteria that you want to pay, pay attention to. But these are the kind of things that happen if you hang around brand builders group, right? These are the kind of people we hang out with. These are the kind of conversations we’re having in addition to how do we change the world and how do we help you change the world?
RV (35:35):
And how do you add your service to more people and, and make an impact and make the world a better place? And a big part of how you make the world a better place is how you use your money to do that. So we have no problems making money, right? We love money. Money’s just not the most important thing in our life, right? For us we’re, we’re Jesus followers, we’re Christians. Like for us, we’re a hardcore Bible thump and Jesus freaks. So we don’t serve money, money serves us. Money is a tool, but we, we care about money, we’re deliberate about money. We like to make money, and we want to help you make a lot of money, and then use your money to do good in the world for you and your family and your employees and for the people around you.
RV (36:17):
So there you have it. 15 legitimate legal ways to save money on taxes. Investigate these, check these out. Hey, share this, share this episode with someone who needs to hear it and request a call with our team. Will you go to brand builders group.com or sorry, wrong number, wrong number go to free brand call.com/podcast. Go to free brand call.com/podcast. Learn about us. Read a little bit about the people we work with you know, the clients that we serve. We, we serve major celebrity clients, ed Mylet and Lewis, how, and Eric Thomas and Amy Porterfield and Peter Diani, and John Gordon and Matthew West, right? Like, we have major celebrity clients, but our heart is also for the people who are just starting out and who are real entrepreneurs trying to find their way and figure this all out. And we’re gonna guide you. We’re gonna guide you on everything, marketing, sales, positioning and then scaling your company with leadership and financial strategy that is legal and ethical and that actually works to make the world a better place. So check out free brand call.com/podcast. Share this episode with an entrepreneur that you know who needs to save money on taxes. So I want you to think in your head right now, who do I know that is an entrepreneur that needs to save money on the taxes? Share this episode with them. You might just change their life and the lives of their employees and maybe the people around him and the investments that they make. And keep coming back here every single week listening and in to the influential Personal Brand podcast. Bye for now.
Ep 362: Alternative Investment Vehicles for Entrepreneurs with Henry Yoshida
RV (00:01):
Hey, part of what we wanna be doing on this show is just sort of bringing you insights and strategies to help you, obviously as a mission-driven messenger, to become more well known, but also as an entrepreneur, to become more savvy and sophisticated. And today we’re gonna talk about a little bit about tax strategy in investing which may not seem always that exciting, but specifically I’ve asked this guest to be on the show. We’re gonna talk about a tool called Self-Directed IRAs. We’ll explain what that means why you might care about them, how you potentially use them and, you know, immediate action steps. But let me introduce you to Henry Yoshida. So, Henry was referred to me by one of the smartest people I know, Jason Dorsey. He’s been on the show se a couple times. He’s a close friend.
RV (00:51):
We we’re, we’re best friends in real life. His company is who we use to do our, our trends and personal branding, national research study. And Jason told me that Henry is one of the smartest people that he’s ever met. So that said a lot because I was asking Jason about self-directed IRAs, and then I got to learn about Henry. So Henry is the c e o and he’s the co-founder of a company called Rocket Dollar. So this is a FinTech financial technology. It’s a FinTech platform that lets people invest tax advantage retirement dollars into private alternative investments. Now, that’s a mouthful. We’re gonna, we’re gonna break that apart and help you understand what that means. But Henry is a C F P. So he’s a certified financial planner. In fact, he’s been a C F P since he was 22 years old.
RV (01:40):
He was the youngest c f CFP at Merrill Lynch, which is where he worked for 10 years. He’s also a, a professional licensed realtor. And he’s got 20 years of experience in finance. He, he actually was the founder of a venture backed company which was a robo-advisor company called Honest Dollar, that was acquired by Goldman Sachs. And he is the founder of another group that has managed had 2.6 billion in assets under management. He graduated from the University of Texas, UT at Austin has an MBA from Cornell University. And, you know, now is building his like personal brand and expertise really around these kind of like, vehicles of self-directed IRAs and Rocket dollar among other things. So with that, Henry, welcome to the show.
HY (02:24):
Thank you very much, Rory. Thanks for having me on today. Yeah, I’m really excited to be here. And Jason’s spoken very, very highly of yourself. I mean, he, he literally took time from his vacation to
RV (02:34):
Talk about I’m, I am the reason for his success. So he should be speaking highly
HY (02:40):
Denise first and you second. I’m sure
RV (02:43):
Denise first. Yes, Denise for sure. But the you know, so I was asking him about self-directed IRAs be and, and, and was something, you know, we have always had 401k. You know, I think I had a Roth, I when I, when I was 22 years old or something, and started learning about that. But only recently learned about this tool called a self-directed i r a. So can you just like high level layman’s terms, tell us what, what is a self-directed I r a
HY (03:16):
Sure. Self-Directed ira, it’s a, it’s a pretty n terribly de non-descriptive term for a type of ira. So the way we explain it and the way it’s become known, a self-directed IRA is an IRA account, very bespoke product. A lot of people in America have these accounts know generally about how they work, but a self-directed IRA is one that lets you keep the same tax treatment tax benefits of a, of a regular IRA that you would have in any brokerage firm. But instead of public stocks, bonds, mutual funds index fund ETFs, you can make private and alternative investments. So anything that the IRSs allows, which is anything from real estate to digital digital currency to making private investments into a friend’s startup technology business those all can be done inside of an IRA if you have a specialized provider that could do self-directed ira. So that’s what it is. Just think private and alt investments with the ta, same tax benefits for an IRA is what you
RV (04:18):
Can do. So, yeah, so basically this becomes a vehicle that I can take my money and if I don’t like the poll markets or don’t wanna put it there for whatever reason, or I have more there and I just wanna, I wanna invest in other things. Like some of the things you mentioned, I mean, crypto’s been obviously a hot topic in recent years. Real estate. Sure. et cetera. I can then use this account as a retirement account. I can do those investments, I can control those investments all the way to private companies and even debt instruments, et cetera. But have it have the same tax treatment, meaning I don’t, I it is tax deferred. So all the money I put in there, yes, those investments are gonna stay, those assets are gonna grow. Hopefully if I do a good job of stewarding that well and managing it well, and then when I retirement, when I retire, I take it out and then I’m taxed on the gains there. So exactly like an ira, it’s just, it has more flexibility into what kinds of things I can invest into. Yeah,
HY (05:18):
Exactly. Yeah, because the industry, you, you, you know, it’s almost so much so that you said you and Jason were talking about this, that people think that an IRA can only invest in public market securities or some derivative of it, like a mutual fund. But the reality is that the ability to invest in things that aren’t public market securities has actually existed since the inception of IRAs. It’s just not as well known. It’s not as well there aren’t a lot of providers in that space. So really, you know, my company’s mission and sort of my own personal background was thinking that, that now maybe to properly diversify someone should create a very simple, very affordable you know, household brand name to let people do private investments inside of an ira because that’s where a lot of investment opportunities are. But you’re exactly right that, that the, the gains everything is in there is tax deferred. And if and when you sell these investments in retirement, that’s when you actually pay taxes. So you can control it just like your regular IRA right
RV (06:16):
Now. And so basically there is some compliance and headaches and regulations and paperwork and details and kind of like that stuff around starting a self-directed ira. And what you guys do is you basically created a, a vehicle where it’s like you can, you know, for a, for a pretty low, very low fee, you can just, you guys can deal with all that and then now I can open an account and it gives me the ability to manage and do whatever I want to do.
HY (06:45):
Exactly. And, and our fee is structured that way because since these are self-directed, people typically find these investments on their own. So we’re not a mutual fund company creating a packaged product and then we charge the customer a management fee for however much money they put with us. But our fee is actually just a one-time flat fee because we typically are not sourcing those investments for the individual. Our fee, our ongoing fee and our signup fee are just flat dollar amounts 360 upfront and 15 a month. It’s just there to cover exactly what you mentioned. The, the not so fun part, cuz this is an audio podcast, but you know, I can see your face when you say paperwork compliance, the setting up painful and so forth. Yeah, it’s painful. So what, and that’s
RV (07:24):
Why we people do what you said earlier. You said like the, the idea of alternative investments in an I R A has existed for a long time, but you don’t hear about it because there hasn’t been as much of a way to like sort of deal with that stuff. The in, in a, in a really smooth fashion. And that’s kind of the problem you guys are trying to solve, right?
HY (07:43):
That part. And then I’ve been very public about talking about this too. It’s that the, the, the existing industry players that provide IRAs to the vast majority of the American public, they’re also the manufacturers of these these as package products as well. So it doesn’t really, there’s no real incentive for them to allow Rory to invest in Jason Dorsey’s business, for example using an account at a major existing provider because there’s no management fee that they can, that they can take for doing so because that’s a, that’s a deal between you two. Yeah.
HY (08:16):
And so forth. So that’s another reason that that’s why this industry really hasn’t become as well known. But you’ll find that sophisticated investors have been doing this for decades. Yeah. And there are several hundred billion of IRA monies inside of private investments.
RV (08:31):
Yeah. So, so here was my initial question. So I’ll ask you cuz this was the catalyst, right? So the catalyst for me was going, you know, we’ve always done 401k, I r a, we, you know, we’ve got that, we’ve got, you know, somebody that manages that and you know, but we are wanting to kind of start doing more with real estate mm-hmm.
HY (09:35):
Exactly. No personal benefit. It’s a, it’s a prohibited transaction is the technical term.
RV (09:40):
Dang it.
HY (09:56):
And artwork is a collectible. So that’s actually one of the two things that are specifically disallowed inside of an IRA generally. But, but it’s kind of interesting that we’re in a 2022, almost 2023 world now that many investments are actually now securitized. So it, it’s, it’s kind of crazy. But the private investment world now allows stock certificates that, that are, are actually backed by a piece of famous artwork or a collectible baseball card and so forth. And there’s websites that do that. And if the investment is properly securitized, then actually I RRA providers are allowed to hold shares of that. But the example you use, which is by a Picasso, hang it up in your house you wouldn’t be allowed to do that because you have the benefit of of enjoying the artwork or showing it off to your friends.
RV (10:43):
Uhhuh
HY (11:32):
Exactly. Yeah. It’s just all IRAs. These, these are just the types of IRAs. So my own vision is that sometime in the next few years people will say there’s traditional IRAs, there’s Roth IRAs, as you mentioned, you had when you were 22. And then there’s alts capable IRAs or self-directed IRAs. It, it’s just not the known third one, but it’s just, they’re all different types of IRAs Yeah. And so forth. So you’re right. And, and what’s the limit? You can put money in the limit for 2022 is $6,000. If you’re under the age of 50 then you can do another 1000 in 2023. And this is all inflation adjusted. So that’s been kind of nuts this year and probably heading into next that you, next year you’ll be able to put away 6,500 into an ira if you’re under the age of 50.
HY (12:17):
Cuz it’s, it’s just adjusting up for inflation. But remember most of these accounts, and probably a lot in your audience, Rory, that the reason why there’s so much money in IRAs is that most people actually sock away a lot of money in some sort of stint in a corporate world before be going out on an entrepreneurial journey. So, myself included, I worked for Merrill Lynch slash Bank of America for a decade and I contributed larger amounts than 6,000. It was less than at that time for IRAs in a 401k, then the company provided a match. And then when I left Merrill Lynch, that account is able to be rolled into my own IRA in my name and, and it had much more than if I’d been able to just put away three, four, $5,000 per year by the time I was there and so forth. So most IRA money is actually old 401k,
RV (13:04):
Old 401K money that then when you leave the company, it can’t be in that 401k and then it gets moved into an I R A.
HY (13:11):
Right? You’re able to leave it if you want, but you’re even more restricted because that company you know, probably only offered you 20 mutual fund choices. And then if you move to an irate at a major brokerage house, then you can buy any public stock that you want. And then if you are having a discussion to potentially buy real estate or invest in cryptocurrency or a small investment in your friend’s business, then you would need a self-directed ira. So that’s kind of the, the evolution,
RV (13:37):
Right? Yeah. And, and so, you know, a couple of the things, and just correct me if I’m wrong here, but like, as I think about this, I’m going, all right, if I wanna start investing in real estate, which typically takes a lot of money right? To, to, to, or, you know Yeah. Takes a lot of money to get to get going Yeah. Is saying part of the way that I can access capital is to pull it from my own retirement account. Whereas normally if I pulled money out of my retirement account, I would get penalized. But in this, in this mechanism, you could, you could convert from your traditional IRA into a self-directed ira. And now I have capital that I can, I can use to go out and buy real estate as an example. Right,
HY (14:18):
Exactly. You just can’t buy the one that you described, which is a vacation home that I use, you might personally use sometimes on your own up to a certain number of days. But the good news for your audience is that you could actually use a self-directed IRA to buy a vacation home that you permanently rent out on Airbnb. And any of us in your audience can actually go to your vacation home. It’s an investment for you. And it’s a, maybe like a getaway for us, for example. You just can’t use it.
RV (14:44):
Even the vacation business can a and can a and the business can’t benefit from it either. Like, can you buy a commercial property that your business is in and the commercial property is in your self-directed ira?
HY (14:56):
You can’t do that either, because if you control that business, then you can’t do it. But for example, if you bought a commercial property and you wanted to lease space to my business, I have no connection to to to your IRA or to you personally from a, just a relationship status. And then I could be your tenant paying a market rate. It, the, the basic rule thumb to make me make it easy is think that anything that you have inside of an ira, whether it’s self-directed or traditional, it just has to be purely an investment. It can’t be something that you, you know, derive personal benefit from that we talked about earlier, or that you get, you get any sort of benefit from. It has to be arm’s length you know, from you. It has to be purely an investment. And then that’s when the government allows you the opportunity to defer those taxes for years, decades and maybe even longer.
RV (15:46):
Yeah. And then, so when you think about the type, the common types of investments that somebody would do here one of the things that is potentially interesting to me about a self-directed IRA is well, first of all, you’re self-directing it so you have more control over like, what’s going on there. Mm-Hmm.
HY (16:46):
There,
RV (16:46):
There, there’s more flexibility. It gives you a chance to have bigger wins as well as typically bigger losses like Sure. So what are the other like, major types of investments that people are doing inside of a self-directed? Does that mean real estate? You got real estate, crypto, private companies? If I wanna invest in my buddies business mm-hmm.
HY (17:09):
Another big one is, is, so the industry itself is, goes all the way back to the seventies. So IRAs were essentially created in 1974. So for probably the first 20, 25 years, the only IRAs that were not offered by the major brokerage houses to do public stocks, let’s say self-directed IRAs for the first two decades were probably only created to do real estate investments. Private credit investments and probably precious metals. So maybe another one that we didn’t talk about was actually investing in, let’s say, gold. For example, like people held gold inside of ira. So that was a big industry, maybe less so now. And again, you can’t hold the gold bar in your house while it’s in your ira. You have to actually have a custodial provider to keep it in a vault for you. But remember these were created in the seventies and eighties. So at that time, oddly enough, that was probably the last very high inflationary environment and people kind of looked at tangible assets like real estate and assets that might hold their value for the long haul, like precious metals. So the industry actually developed around those asset classes first and
RV (18:16):
So forth. That’s, that’s interesting. So then basically, you know, the market conditions back then were, you know, maybe similar to what we may or may not be heading towards, but certainly recently interest rates have been going up and things like that. Yeah. And so you’re saying that people, you know, sort of tend to start to look more towards alternative investments and these kinds of
HY (18:38):
Sequence? Yeah, and I do wanna go back and say that, you know, I, I talk a lot and people always say that, you know, all alternative investments may be, you know, may be riskier than public investments. And I don’t know if that’s actually the case cuz you know, we just talked about that if you did cryptocurrency or investing in a small private business, yes that may be riskier than buying an s and p 500 company like Tesla or Microsoft for example, or Johnson and Johnson, McDonald’s. But, you know, I think it might be argued that, that as we record this today, Tesla is down 65% year to date so far, you know, heading into the end of 2022, that’s 63, 60 5% is down year to date. And even when what you might consider like the confluence of very bad events for real estate, I’d be hard pressed to think that a single family home has dropped 65% in value, you know, just this year.
HY (19:30):
So it could be argued that that tangible investments, some of which you could do in a self-directed IRA, actually might be considered y you know, relatively more stable than some investments you do in the public markets. So some alt alternative and private deals, yes. Maybe more, I guess you could say risky. But that riskiness is usually due to either you’re investing in an early not yet mature company or there’s an illiquidity issue with that investment. But, you know, sometimes if you’re buying something tangible like precious metals or real estate I would say that that actually is very good. And, and right now there’s, we talked about this before recording, there’s 15 trillion in IRAs in America. Almost all of it is invested in stocks and mutual funds right now. And if there aren’t providers like mine that allow people to get into some more tangible investments, well that’s a risk to the American public at this point cuz they have nowhere to go. Even bonds are down actually 15% year to date right now in the us
RV (20:29):
Uhhuh
HY (20:42):
A big difference. It’s tangible. You can see it versus a piece of paper that, that may or may not you know, know, represent an actual stake in, in an, in a maximum mature company that’s publicly traded.
RV (20:51):
Mm-Hmm.
HY (21:22):
I I just think that self-directed IRAs to me are maybe very similar to your audience. The, the, you’re your listeners, a lot of people are pursuing their passions or what they want to do. They don’t wanna work for a 100 to 200 or 2000 or 200,000 employee company any longer. And they go out on their own. I think self-directed IRAs are almost the embodiment of being able to invest in things that you know about that you care about and so forth. I mean, you, you could do that through your public stock investing and say you believe in, in climate change. So you invest in Tesla for example. You hate supporting the cable companies, so you buy Netflix. But in a self-directed ira, people can really say that, you know, I’m going to use my own capital support a local business if they would take an investment from me to be a passive partial owner of this or real estate in a town.
HY (22:12):
So one of our first customers, and this is one of our first customers at Rocket Dollar. I remember talking to her on the phone. She grew up in San Antonio. She went to business school in New York and was a management consultant with a great salary and said, you know, I actually want to buy all rental properties in San Antonio, like where I grew up. I live in New York, I live in a nice apartment here, great salary. But I would feel so much better if I know that I bought four homes with my I r a there. And were able to let families rent it and live and raise their children in a house that I owned. It’s an investment for me. I’m making money, making gains, making income on a monthly basis. But I also know that there’s four families that live in these homes as well and so forth.
HY (22:59):
And I remember thinking, wow, that was huge. I mean, you know, yes, you may feel some benefits on investing in a public company, but nothing like that. She knew these people you know, they were at otherwise living in an apartment, right? But now they can live in a home with a backyard. And she knew their kids and she’s like, this is the best of both worlds. I’m making money, it’s an investment for me. And I’m able to provide households like real homes with real backyards and real neighborhoods for four families. And where I grew up,
RV (23:28):
What happens with the cash flow on that real estate? So the, the, the property itself is held in the self-directed ira, it’s throwing off rental, is that flow through as personal income or does that have to stay inside the ira? Somehow
HY (23:41):
Everything stays in the ira. So IRAs that are self-directed are exactly the same as IRAs that hold public stock. So if you own a stock that pays a dividend and you bought it in your ira, that dividend stays in the IRA u unless you’re over 59 and a half, at which point you could maybe decide to get that distributed to you and then you pay taxes on it cuz you can control that. But if you’re collecting 1500 in rent times, four homes in your ira, 6,000 a month, that’s 6,000 just accumulates inside of your ira. And what we find with our customers that they end up getting to like, Hey, now I got $50,000 after one year of owning these four properties, I can go do another deal maybe not real estate, but now I’m gonna go buy a $50,000 investment into this real estate syndication for storage units. And so where they build up cash, just like if you owned a bunch of dividend stocks inside of your current ira after a couple years, you’d have a bunch of cash inside. You either redeploy it back into something or if you’re old enough, you might take it as income and just pay taxes on it while leaving the rest of the property in the ira in this case
RV (24:45):
Uhhuh
HY (24:46):
And that’s the tax strategy component that we were kind of hinting at
RV (24:49):
Uhhuh
HY (24:56):
If you own real estate, everything is done with the I rra dollars. So again, you don’t mix and mingle in, in that, in that sense. So th that’s one of the things about owning real estate is everything is done in there. And that’s actually how we’re structured at Rocket Dollar. I kind of liken our account to sort of like an I r A bank account. And you set yourself up to pay property manager landscaper, you know, if you cover some of the bills, for example, for your rental properties, you do it from the I r dollars. You don’t do it with Rory Vaden regular dollars for a property inside of an ira. You have to keep it one or the other. And that’s why a lot of our people, maybe your people as well,
RV (25:37):
Property taxes, landscaping capital improvements too.
HY (25:40):
Everything. Yeah.
RV (25:41):
Uhhuh
HY (26:03):
You would, you would pay whatever income taxes are due on that money. If, let’s say it originally was a 401k, you never paid taxes on any dollar in a 401k and now it’s an ira. If you pull out a $300,000 cash value and you’re under 59 and a half and you’ve never paid taxes, you will add that to your taxable income for that year. That year all at once. But the beauty of IRAs, just so you know, is once you become 59 and a half, you could decide to take out as much as or as little as you like to supplement you know, your own living standard or needs. So if you created, let’s say 15,000 in income but you want to keep the properties, you could just take that 15,000 out when you’re 60 years old and, and use that to supplement against like other income sources. You have follow. That’s what our
RV (26:50):
Customers do. I didn’t follow that part.
HY (26:52):
So after 59 and a half, you can take out any amount in your IRA that you want that’s available in cash and whatever you take out, if you haven’t paid taxes, you will just add that to your taxable income for that year. So if you decide that you want an extra 5,000 a month, cuz you have two properties that generate 2,500 in rental income, you could, if you’re 60 years old, for example, just take that 5,000 every month and then you’ll
RV (27:18):
Taxable income.
HY (27:18):
It’s just taxable income. But remember you were able to roll that, maybe you bought those properties 20 years ago and so forth. You, you didn’t liquidate the property, you’re just taking a distribution on the income from that property.
RV (27:33):
Right. Which is an, which is an advantage at that point cuz now you have your, you have turned your retirement account into an income stream that goes forever and ever, which theoretically you would have also from dividends I guess if you were, if you were in a like, public market or whatever. So
HY (27:48):
Yeah.
RV (27:50):
So then how do, like, if, how do companies buy real estate inside of their businesses and how do entrepreneurs typically buy their second homes? Like from a tax, you know, advantage place? How do you see those kind of tend to be structured?
HY (28:09):
Yeah, so they, they don’t really do, if it’s an ira, they don’t do that. And they, they, you know, again, we talked about it earlier, they wouldn’t really co-mingle.
RV (28:16):
Yeah. So this doesn’t, so now we, now we have to leave, we have to leave the, the self-directed ira, by the way y’all, I haven’t mentioned this yet, but so Henry’s company’s called Rocket Dollar. If you go to brand builders group.com/rocket that’s our affiliate link where you can check this out and you can learn about it. And like you said, it’s, it’s a, it’s a ridiculously low thing. It’s like 360 bucks or something at the time of this recording, one time fee and then a small monthly, like 15 bucks a month. And that, and that helps you deal with the compliance and have this vehicle and this account open and gives you some other features and stuff that allow you to sort of, it becomes the mechanism, I guess the vehicle at which you can like actually do this and, and move money around.
RV (28:59):
So, and then I, so I guess, and then we’re leaving now we’re leaving that conversation. Yeah. Behind. So we have to leave the conversation with a self-directed ira. When you go in, when you, when you start saying, okay, what are some of the tax strategies I can do as a company if I’m a higher earning, you know, entrepreneur because my personal brand is crushing it and you’re generating millions of dollars in speaking fees or your membership side or your royalties or your course sales mm-hmm.
HY (29:47):
The big one, and, and this is actually a very known thing for a lot of your small community and regional banks here in the us they love actually financing successful cash flowing business owners to buy a commercial property that they may use up to 30% ish of the building. So let’s say you purchase a a 10,000 square foot building in the suburbs of Nashville or the suburbs of Austin. And I have friends that actually where I live, I, I have a bunch of friends that actually own these types of buildings and then they run their small business in roughly 10, 15, 20, 30% of it. And the bank is actually happy to finance that. So the business owns, owns the property or the business owner in this case your, your audience listener would buy that property and actually have a lease agreement with the with your business for 30%.
HY (30:36):
And then you’d rent out the remaining 70 and the bank and they help pay that mortgage. And in 10 years time, because commercial loans are, are not amortized over 30 years, in 10 years time, you now might own outright this building for 6 million while actually using a, a normal known expense on a monthly basis for your business. Cuz right now all of these businesses are probably paying some sort of rent right now, but instead wanna pay yourself the rent and have it pay down that loan and 10 years later you own this 6 million building in the suburbs of Nashville, for example. I see a lot of that, that that has nothing to do with IRAs, but I think that’s a great business strategy. Maybe better than the vacation home because it’s, it’s, you know, little, I think that’s something that’s a little more amenable to the local community banks that, that do that a lot right
RV (31:25):
Now. And so in that case, you then start a separate business, like a separate L L C that owns this commercial property that’s then renting it 30, renting like 30% of it, you’re saying
HY (31:37):
The part that you need. Yeah.
RV (31:39):
Back to this other business that you own, which is like, let’s call it your main business mm-hmm.
HY (31:54):
Building. Exactly. Yeah. Uhhuh
RV (32:18):
Uhhuh
HY (32:19):
RV (32:48):
Uhhuh
HY (33:16):
Exactly. Yeah. So I see that quite a bit. And then, you know, if you don’t want to be too actively involved in that business, you can, you can bring on a partner. You could just be very sort of integrated with a property manager that’s experienced. I mean, at the end of the day, you most people probably want to concentrate on their primary business. They’re not in the business of running multiple businesses and so forth. But that’s just just a strategy. The other one I would say this is maybe more specific to the business owner and doesn’t involve needing another outside thing is that if you’re a very successful cash flowing business and you have a small group of employees, let’s say anywhere from five to maybe 20, but these are, you know, maybe even up to 50 a lot of people don’t do this.
HY (33:58):
And this goes back to my pre FinTech days, but I would encourage business owners to actually look at things beyond a 401k. Like we don’t have ’em as much in America anymore, but pension plans are actually very, very good vehicles for business owners to accumulate a large amount of money for themselves while still having an attractive benefit to keep your key people for not just two years or five years, but probably 10 and 20. I mean, that’s another problem we have in, you know, today probably being a business owner is it’s very hard to retain employees. Most people think that they’re gonna stay two years at a place and then go from job to job to job. But you know, you and I, Rory, we probably know a lot of businesses where they’ve had their core group of people with them for a decade or longer.
HY (34:45):
And those tend to be very successful businesses. And if that person sets up a small business pension plan, typically the owner if their spouse is involved, they could put away over a hundred thousand dollars a year to themselves and shield it from taxes while then providing a smaller benefit to the employees in the form of a guaranteed pension. But over the course of 10 years, you’d be able to sock away like a seven figure amount that would turn into a guaranteed income stream. The lesser known, I used to set up a lot of those back in the early, you know, kind of 2000 to 2012 timeframe
RV (35:19):
Now for these businesses. And so pension plan, what is, when you say pension plan, define pension plan for me, cuz I don’t, when I think pension plan, I think very large entities and big structures. I don’t think small businesses. I get that. I get what you’re saying is basically the, the, the mechanism here is that by introducing this benefit to all of your employees or some portion of your employees, you’ve now created a way for you to put more money away each year into retirement accounts so that you don’t have short-term taxes, you don’t get to have that money, but you don’t have to pay taxes on it. And now that money, you have a larger and larger pile that’s growing tax deferred, not limited by the, the normal thresholds of like the 401K and the ira, which are much, much lower. Right. So I’m, I follow you there. Sure. But like what does pension plan mean?
HY (36:10):
Yeah, so pension plan means essentially this is a plan where only the business contributes on behalf of every employee. So you are required to cover every eligible employee. So if you have 10 people in the business, let’s say it’s a spouse and a a couple that basically own the business, the couple might be in their mid to late forties, the other eight employees may average age only 25. So you do a pension plan, it’s adjusted for accumulating retirement. So every year you have an administrator and they tell you that, hey, your business, you need to put $200,000 or $150,000 is your contribution for the whole company’s plan, all 10 people. But because you’re older and you’re more highly compensated, maybe 90% of that money goes to you and 10% goes to the other eight people. But they’re happy because they actually have a guaranteed retirement benefit down the road.
HY (37:07):
You know, pension plans actually do exist for small businesses. I think they’re gonna make a comeback here over the next like several years. But not at the big gigantic companies or government or let’s say, you know, municipal type employers. But it’s a powerful tool and, and you have a lot of audience members who you just said that maybe they’re just crushing it with their course sales or their speaking engagements. And this is a 10 person business and the, let’s say the, the couple that run it, they’re usually decade, a couple decades older than the average employee at that business. They could put away a big amount with, for tax benefit for retirement for a guaranteed income stream and shield themselves in current income. Right Now the great thing about making a million dollars in income is you made a million dollars in income. The problem is you’re probably gonna end up netting only 650,000 of that income if you make all 1 million.
RV (38:02):
Right. And the other thing is, a lot of these, if they’re small business, they don’t have tons of employees and tons of you, you know, you might have a couple assistances or whatever. Like it’s not like you have five people on the payroll that make a quarter million dollars a year doing, you know, highly, you know, complex C-level type jobs. So
HY (38:17):
You might have a great core group of eight people, that average income is 70,000 and if you’re, let’s say running the business and taking more and you’re older, you would find that you would be putting away probably a six figure amount for yourself. And you’re still doing it right by those employees.
RV (38:33):
No, you still have to have a lot of cash flow. That’s the problem is that you gotta have the cash flow. Yeah. But you’re either gonna pay it to the government in taxes or you’re gonna pay it to your employees as a benefit to them. Exactly. And and to yourself. So like that money is not gonna stay in your pocket either way. It’s basically how, unless you put it, unless you do this. So if you is a defined benefits plan is like a cash balance plan, is that the same thing as a pension plan?
HY (38:57):
It, yeah, it defined benefit pension plan. Similar cash balance is a type of, of pension plan that is kind of a, it looks a little bit like a 401k, looks a little bit like a defined benefit pension plan and so forth. Like that’s getting a little bit into the weeds. But for people that are your audience, if they say that, you know, I am one of these people, I’m, I’m more highly compensated than the general employee who’s on my team. And I’m also maybe generally older if they look into this, they, they might find that if they can sustain cash flow and of course after they work with you and aj, they surely that’s, that’s that that’s gonna happen right away. In time that they’ll have this great business, they may say to themselves that this is a way to like, you know, really have the benefit down the road because otherwise you’re gonna get taxed very heavily today.
RV (39:45):
Yeah. Well and that’s, you know, the only reason I know defined benefit plan is cuz that’s, that’s come up several time with our, and in some of our like high level mastermind circles with some of our, our, our higher level clients is we’re always, we’re telling them. So I, it’s interesting I didn’t equate that to pension plan, but it’s the same vehicle which is ef it’s effectively a completely legal mechanism by which you can increase the limits, the, the thresholds of what you would normally be able to invest into tax deferred accounts like a 401K or an ira. And you get to provide this awesome benefit for your employees, which is that they, you’re contributing to their retirement in a small business. That’s pretty wild because you go, man, I’m working with a small business, my benefits package is like as good if not better than some of the biggest companies out there. You, you know, it’s really cool thing. I love that.
HY (40:34):
Exactly. Yeah. And, and you know, we were talking, we were introduced by Jason and I was just reading his book, which is basically showing business owners and companies and corporations how they might take advantage of hiring into that Gen Z you know, generation for people younger, if there’s two levers, if they’re younger and they have lower salaries it is something to consider if, if you’re the small business very stable with your business and cash flows, that that’s how you could put away, I mean, we just talked about IRAs allow you to put away six, $7,000 a year 7,000 if you’re over 50 401ks allow you to put away 20,000. This is how people put away 100, 1 50 200,000 and shield it from taxes, which is why it probably comes up in your high level master mastermind groups.
RV (41:18):
Uhhuh,
HY (41:21):
Right? It’ll be a 22,500 next year, but it’s it’s 20,500
RV (41:27):
This year. So, so yeah, that, that’s something to ask about. And it is the kind of thing where it’s like no one ever told us that. And you don’t know to ask about it now, you know, the thing is you gotta be careful is you have to commit to it for a certain number of years, right. So you have to like lock it in. So you need to have stable cash flows. But
HY (41:48):
That is true. That’s a, that’s a good point. And you know what’s funny is I’ve made my entire, I’ve always, I’ve been in this industry for over 20 years and oddly enough, someone asked me this one time, he said, you know, you’ve done it this whole time that you technically never recommend an investment strategy or an investment itself. I said, exactly, I have this belief that people are gonna invest in things, whether it’s in the private markets, to the public markets already. They’re gonna do what, what, you know, is appropriate for them. And all I’m saying is that look, if you think about how you hold that money, whether it’s in an ira, a pension plan, a 401k, that same investment that you are gonna do, if you hold it in a better way, you’ll actually make usually somewhere between 20 to 50% more per year on that investment.
HY (42:34):
You know, whether you invest in the s and p 500, someone likes that someone wants to invest in Tesla, another person wants to invest in real estate, crypto or private businesses. If you hold it the right way and I show you how to do it, you’ll make thir 20, 30, 40, 50% more per year Yeah. On the investment you were already gonna do. That’s not my job to recommend the, the, the investment to you that’s your advisor’s job or your own decision to make. But you sh people don’t pay nearly enough attention to how they hold investments.
RV (43:03):
Yeah. And I think where the magic part of where the magic is, is going, if I take that money as income and I pay taxes on it, I could still invest that money into my friend’s company. I could still invest that money into crypto and if I hold it for longer than a year, I’m still only paying capital gains tax. The the, the magic though is if I do that through the self-directed ira, all of the money that I would be paying in taxes now stays in the investment and it rolls and it rolls and it rolls and it rolls. Right. And that’s like a pretty, like over the course of time, that’s a monumental you know, IM impact. So
HY (43:44):
Exactly. You’re rolling a dollar, you’re, you’re, you’re a hundred cents. The whole dollar, $1 is going in if you do it after maybe 60, 65, 70, 70 5 cents of that dollar. So over time, that holding period, you’re compounding on either 65 cents or you’re compounding on a dollar. There’s a big difference.
RV (44:02):
Yeah. Just by the technicality of how it’s held. Now, the, now the other thing is you don’t have access to the money. So that’s the big thing is like, it’s in here, it’s staying in here, it’s not going anywhere.
HY (44:11):
Well the beauty of private investments is they typically are a liquid anyways. So the reason why there’s a premium there is because they aren’t quite as liquid as being able to buy and sell a hundred times a day or a week, let’s say some public stock. So you actually get compensated for that. So the way economics works, you’re getting a slight you know, premium for the ability not to, to always be a hundred percent liquid, which, you know, right now, maybe it’s been proven that it’s probably a good thing. You know, you read a lot of articles that say that 2022 is the year where you may not want to like overly look at your investment statements, right? Yeah. You’re, you’re probably better off just focusing on your business and, and building your audience and growing your business.
RV (44:49):
Yeah. Reinvesting
HY (44:50):
The investments are a long-term thing, so don’t really worry about what it’s gonna say here at the end of Q4 in 2022.
RV (44:55):
Henry, how do we buy our vacation home? What’s the, what’s like, what’s the smartest way to go about doing that or to think about that?
HY (45:03):
Yeah, well, inside, again, inside of an ira it wouldn’t be a vacation home that you use. So that is one thing that if you, if you just know that there’s this lock solid investment opportunity, but something that you could do with not having on your own then you can use IRA dollars if you wanna buy one on your own. I mean, this is, I I have no association with this company, but I have friends and, and I’ve seen these particular platforms develop, but where you might actually just fractionally own a vacation home. So it’s, it’s a modern digital twist on probably timeshare but only luxury properties. I just think it’s safer cuz for me, I’m a big proponent of how you hold the investment and maybe if at all possible not locking up you know, all the capital at one time and at which point, if you own the entire investment with a lot of locked up capital, you exponentially increased your risk.
HY (45:54):
So maybe you can buy one 32nd of a luxury property through one of these digital platforms instead of you coming up with a 20% down payment and making sure that you tell your tax advisor that you only stayed in the place for less than 21 days a year and tracking everything. That’s, that’s risky to me. I think that I, I do this myself. I think you should actually look at some of these digital platforms where you could just pay y you know, a set like $40,000 for example, and own one 32nd and get your allocation of time to a property. The, the, the one you know, in my mind I think about is park City, Utah. Interesting. And for example, because of 20% down payment on a $900,000, you know, luxury property there, small two-bed, two and a half bath cabin, that’s a lot of capital. We’re talking over a hundred thousand dollars in down payment plus the risk of owning it outright
RV (46:48):
Versus,
HY (46:49):
And I specifically think of Park City because there were wildfires there that severely impacted some of these properties in like a Lake Tahoe or Park City. What if that was yours? And, and you and I are col respectively, 1700 and 1300 miles away from there right
RV (47:04):
Now. Uhhuh
HY (47:23):
And you’re limited from, you know, the amount of time you can actually physically be there. Anyway, in a sense. Yeah. Anyway. And you know, people are, someone sees this as a problem to a certain subset of the population, just like Rocket dull does as well. And you know, you just stick to like very tried and true ones, which is that maybe the outlay of capital is limited, right. And so forth. So that might be a way to do it through one of these platforms. I don’t own a property, you know, in my name fully outside of my primary residence that I’m talking to you from right now, but do take advantage of these platforms because it’s a, it’s a known limited amount of capital known, limited exposure to me. And then everything I can, I consider every investment I do private, public how I hold it, you know, I got eight days here, so I think a lot about you know, where I should sort of dole out different things. Are there some, like other advantages I can take right now before the end of the year?
RV (48:21):
Interesting.
HY (48:21):
I have a very limited skillset, Rory. It’s I think about this, I’ve done this for 22 years. I’m like the I always think about optimization of how you might hold an asset. That’s, that’s sort of how I’ve been trained.
RV (48:34):
And you’re, are you an active, you’re not an active advisor, you’re not really an active advisor anymore, right?
HY (48:40):
No. I sold that practice, you know, prior to the Robo-advisor. You know, so that was back in 2000 14, you know, we had 2.6 billion in assets that we managed on behalf of individuals and, and, and businesses. But I sold my stake and, and it’s a conflict to do that right now. It, it’s actually an impact thing. It’s funny that you just asked that question here kind of as we wind down. I really just thought that by building a FinTech product company, I can actually impact more people than I could ever by just selling some little fractional portion of my business week Yeah. To certain folks. So I really thought about that way. It’s that it’s been successful for me, but the really, the real thinking is that if I create Rocket Dollar the platform, I can work with 1 million people and billions of dollars if I basically just, you know advise people for time, you know, on an assets under management basis I can maybe work with at most 30 families effectively.
RV (49:40):
Yeah. Well, and that, that was part of why, that’s part of why I, I thought to have you on the show, because, you know, we, we have, we have advisors. We love, we trust lots of clients that are advisors. Right. We’ve got lots of advisors. Yeah. But, you know, since you’re not actually, you’re incentivized to like, sell any product other than Rocket Dollar, it was like, Hey, let’s bring Henry on and ask him some of these questions. Of course, again, y’all, if you go to brand builders group.com/rocket, you can learn about this and how to open the accounts, a few hundred bucks, very low monthly fee. And then Henry’s team is taking care of the, the backend. And now you are, you’re free to self-direct your own retirement investments in a tax-deferred way. And there’s some really cool things and, and it does seem like the way the world is shifting in the economy, et cetera. It’s, it’s kind of like an, an, it’s important to at least know that this vehicle exists. And that’s why we wanted to talk about this subject and that’s why we found you, Henry. So you’ve been so generous with your knowledge, your wisdom, your experience. Thank you so much for that time. And man, we look forward to following this journey.
HY (50:47):
Thank you very much. Thanks for having me. And I’m, I’m glad I was able to share a little bit and explain some of these self-directed IRAs, which will become a big, big thing over the next five to seven years.
RV (50:57):